From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Dec 1 02:18:35 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 00 18:18:35 -0800 Subject: Genetics issues in ancient India Message-ID: <161227064816.23782.16469470177621659675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote: > >It is important to note that mtDNA studies like this may not be > >as relevant to invasion/migration issues as studies of y-chromosome > >polymorphisms. Vidyasankar Sundaresan responded: > mtDNA studies may not be relevant only to those who assume that > the incoming Aryans were all male, who took native female partners. > This assumption reveals more about the inadequacies of the theory > than about the inadequacies of mtDNA studies themselves. If the > incoming Aryans were a mixed population of males and females (as > I would expect them to have been), mtDNA studies will still have > important contributions to make. You've distorted my message, whose intent was to point to the abstracts of fifteen genetics papers potentially relevant (either way) to the Aryan question. I took no stand either way in the post on the Aryan migration issue itself. Those abstracts are listed at http://www.safarmer.com/genetics. But NB: What I said was that mtDNA studies "may not be as relevant" as studies of y-chromosome polymorphisms to the Aryan question ? not that they "may not be relevant" at all. This difference isn't trivial. Moreover, your claim that methodological problems in the use of mtDNA studies only arise for "those who assume that the incoming Aryans were all male, who took native female partners" is by no means correct. It is common for dominant/elite males in migratory cultures, whether or not they are accompanied by females, to mate with native females. This skews mtDNA data in ways that do not occur when you use studies of y-chromosome polymorphisms, which exclusively pertain to paternal lines. Hence the enormous interest at present in population genetics in studies of y-chromosome polymorphisms. You write: > Both your stand and my response above rely on the current paradigm > that mtDNA is derived solely from the female line. This is, in turn, > based on the observation that in most species, sperm cells do not > contain mitochondria, or that if they do, mitochondrial material > is digested after fertilization of the ovum. This picture is now > becoming more complex. In some mollusc species, it is already well > accepted that mtDNA show bi-parental inheritance. Human sperm does > have mitochondria, and I am keeping an eye open for the possibility > that mtDNA lineages may not be solely maternal. What you say is correct, but it further undercuts your own position. The data published by Strauss in _Science_ 286 (24 Dec. 1999) suggests that paternal and maternal mtDNA sometimes do undergo sexual recombination. How and when this occurs is not currently known. What *is* certain is that if this is a normal situation, the value of mtDNA studies in investigating migrational patterns is attenuated even further. The so-called Eve thesis, for example, which is already under attack for different reasons, would collapse completely. This points again to the increasing importance to migrational studies of data on y-chromosome polymorphisms -- as suggested in my post. Again, a friend from Cavalli-Sforza's group, a specialist both in migrational and y-chromosome and mtDNA issues, will report on the relevance of these questions specifically to the Aryan problem at a Harvard conference next May. In sum: There are good reasons why population geneticists currently place more hope in studies of y-chromosome polymorphisms, and not in mtDNA research, in attempting to unravel migrational issues. Steve Farmer From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 1 05:21:16 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 00:21:16 -0500 Subject: Cerebral L in Rg Veda Message-ID: <161227064818.23782.16126402265354391874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Maurice Bloomfield in his concordance (both the on-line version and the printed edition) does not change intervocalic cerebral D for cerebral L for RV.1.1.1a (or for any other RV occurances of "agnim IDe..." ). He has "agnim IDe purohitam" for RV.1.1.1a . He does have the variation "agnim Ile purohitam" for zAGkhAyana zrauta sUtra and for zAGkhAyana gRhya sUtra . But for this variation he uses "Ile" and not "ILe". MacDonell in his Vedic Grammar section 52 d.(and at the end of section 11 in chapter one of his Vedic Grammar for Students.) notes the variation "ile" (semivowel l) for "iDe" (palatal d) but gives it for the Kanva rescension of the VS . The exact entry in Bloomfield is: (I'm using "Sh" for the palatal sibilant) agnim IDe (ShSh.ShG. Ile) purohitam # RV.1.1.1a; ArS.3.4a; TS.4.3.13.3a; MS.4.10.5a: 155.1; KS.2.14a; GB.1.1.29a; ASh.2.1.26; ShSh.6.4.1; 14.52.1; AG.3.5.6; ShG.4.5.7; N.7.15a. Why would Bloomfield not give the reading "agnim iLe purohitam" for RV.1.1.1a. Would this have anything to do with the issues Madhav Deshpande mentions in his "Rg Vedic Retroflexion" section 3.1 about the RV change of intervocalic D to L ? Also A.A. MacDonell in his Vedic Reader for Students for the next verse RV.1.1.2 gives the following readings (both for the samhita text). In devanagari: agniH pUrvebhirRSibhir IDyo nUtanairuta In transliteration: agniH pUrvebhir RSibhir ILio nUtanairuta I.e. in the devanagari text he has "Idyo" but in the transliterated text he changes vowel-D-semivowel for vowel-L-vowel. In his notes for the verse he says "IDyas: to be read as ILias". Does he mean that the verse is chanted with "ILio" and not "IDyo"? This is confusing because in his "Vedic Grammar I.3 footnote 5 he says "... ILe (but IDya)" . Nor does this agree with the HOS metrically restored RV which has "IDio nUtanair uta" not "ILio nUtanair uta". Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From sanjay at KHEMRAJ.COM Fri Dec 1 01:34:00 2000 From: sanjay at KHEMRAJ.COM (Sanjay Bajaj) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 07:04:00 +0530 Subject: indian Books! Message-ID: <161227064896.23782.2278012698583676175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Subscriber, We are the oldest Publishers of (Indological) Indian books (EST.1871) namely M/S Khemraj Shrikrishnadass prop: Shri Venkateshwar Steam Press, Bombay & now are launching a web site. www.khemraj.com This is to enquire & request you to please guide me as I am the fourth generation of the Khemraj family looking after the same business & my name is Mr. Sanjay Bajaj & enable me to show to the world the treasures of India & our books ofcourse with your little help. Please tell me how ? Thanking You! For M/S Khemraj Shrikrishnadass Sanjay Bajaj Email: sanjay at khemraj.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 1 12:47:57 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 07:47:57 -0500 Subject: Correction re: Cerebral L in Rg Veda Message-ID: <161227064826.23782.8270410864917025274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I made a small error in my post using "palatal" where I should have said "cerebral" in one line. The correct post is as follows. Apologies. Maurice Bloomfield in his concordance (both the on-line version and the printed edition) does not change intervocalic cerebral D for cerebral L for RV.1.1.1a (or for any other RV occurances of "agnim IDe..." ). He has "agnim IDe purohitam" for RV.1.1.1a . He does have the variation "agnim Ile purohitam" for zAGkhAyana zrauta sUtra and for zAGkhAyana gRhya sUtra . But for this variation he uses "Ile" and not "ILe". MacDonell in his Vedic Grammar section 52 d.(and at the end of section 11 in chapter one of his Vedic Grammar for Students.) notes the variation "ile" (semivowel l) for "iDe" (cerebral d) but gives it for the Kanva rescension of the VS . The exact entry in Bloomfield is: (I'm using "Sh" for the palatal sibilant) agnim IDe (ShSh.ShG. Ile) purohitam # RV.1.1.1a; ArS.3.4a; TS.4.3.13.3a; MS.4.10.5a: 155.1; KS.2.14a; GB.1.1.29a; ASh.2.1.26; ShSh.6.4.1; 14.52.1; AG.3.5.6; ShG.4.5.7; N.7.15a. Why would Bloomfield not give the reading "agnim iLe purohitam" for RV.1.1.1a. Would this have anything to do with the issues Madhav Deshpande mentions in his "Rg Vedic Retroflexion" section 3.1 about the RV change of intervocalic D to L ? Also A.A. MacDonell in his Vedic Reader for Students for the next verse RV.1.1.2 gives the following readings (both for the samhita text). In devanagari: agniH pUrvebhirRSibhir IDyo nUtanairuta In transliteration: agniH pUrvebhir RSibhir ILio nUtanairuta I.e. in the devanagari text he has "Idyo" but in the transliterated text he changes vowel-D-semivowel for vowel-L-vowel. In his notes for the verse he says "IDyas: to be read as ILias". Does he mean that the verse is chanted with "ILio" and not "IDyo"? This is confusing because in his "Vedic Grammar I.3 footnote 5 he says "... ILe (but IDya)" . Nor does this agree with the HOS metrically restored RV which has "IDio nUtanair uta" not "ILio nUtanair uta". Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Dec 1 13:48:13 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 08:48:13 -0500 Subject: Correction re: Cerebral L in Rg Veda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227064828.23782.14644866245333129725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Keep in mind that the rule that changes .d to .l in the RV samhita requires that this .d occur in between two vowels, cf. the RV Praatizaakhya rule: dvayoz caasya svarayor madhyam etya sampadyate sa .dakaaro .lakaara.h (don't have the book with me at the moment for reference). Thus the form "ii.dya" does not qualify for this treatment, while the form "ii.de" does qualify for change to "ii.le". Now the change of "ii.dya" to "ii.dia" is not a traditional change, but a suggestion of modern scholars. This is why there is no traditional treatment of "ii.dia" or its change to "ii.lia". Whether one should make this change in a "reconstructed" text, is purely a decision of the reconstructor and not of the tradition. Compare the fact that when Yaaska paraphrases "ii.dya" with "ii.litavya", the phonetic environment changes to intervocalic. Professor M.A. Mehendale has dealt with this example in his work "Notes on the Nirukta". Best, Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > I made a small error in my post using "palatal" where I should have said > "cerebral" in one line. The correct post is as follows. Apologies. > > > Maurice Bloomfield in his concordance (both the on-line version and the > printed edition) does not change intervocalic cerebral D for cerebral L for > RV.1.1.1a (or for any other RV occurances of "agnim IDe..." ). He has > "agnim IDe purohitam" for RV.1.1.1a . He does have the variation "agnim Ile > purohitam" for zAGkhAyana zrauta sUtra and for zAGkhAyana gRhya sUtra . But > for this variation he uses "Ile" and not "ILe". MacDonell in his Vedic > Grammar section 52 d.(and at the end of section 11 in chapter one of his > Vedic Grammar for Students.) notes the variation "ile" (semivowel l) for > "iDe" (cerebral d) but gives it for the Kanva rescension of the VS . > > The exact entry in Bloomfield is: (I'm using "Sh" for the palatal sibilant) > > agnim IDe (ShSh.ShG. Ile) purohitam # RV.1.1.1a; ArS.3.4a; > TS.4.3.13.3a; MS.4.10.5a: 155.1; KS.2.14a; GB.1.1.29a; > ASh.2.1.26; ShSh.6.4.1; 14.52.1; AG.3.5.6; ShG.4.5.7; N.7.15a. > > Why would Bloomfield not give the reading "agnim iLe purohitam" for > RV.1.1.1a. Would this have anything to do with the issues Madhav Deshpande > mentions in his "Rg Vedic Retroflexion" section 3.1 about the RV change of > intervocalic D to L ? > > Also A.A. MacDonell in his Vedic Reader for Students for the next verse > RV.1.1.2 gives the following readings (both for the samhita text). > > In devanagari: agniH pUrvebhirRSibhir IDyo nUtanairuta > In transliteration: agniH pUrvebhir RSibhir ILio nUtanairuta > > I.e. in the devanagari text he has "Idyo" but in the transliterated text he > changes vowel-D-semivowel for vowel-L-vowel. In his notes for the verse he > says "IDyas: to be read as ILias". Does he mean that the verse is chanted > with "ILio" and not "IDyo"? This is confusing because in his "Vedic Grammar > I.3 footnote 5 he says "... ILe (but IDya)" . Nor does this agree with the > HOS metrically restored RV which has "IDio nUtanair uta" not "ILio nUtanair > uta". > > Many thanks, > > > Harry Spier > 371 Brickman Rd. > Hurleyville, New York > USA 12747 > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > From haridasc at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 1 17:07:22 2000 From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 09:07:22 -0800 Subject: mailing address: Sampurnanand Sanskrit University Message-ID: <161227064836.23782.7201520039511034867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please, could someone kindly post the mailing address of the Sanskrit Departemnt of Sampurnanand Sanskrit University? thank you __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Dec 1 17:33:00 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 09:33:00 -0800 Subject: [mailing address: Sampurnanand Sanskrit University] Message-ID: <161227064838.23782.1210453439448764793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Haridas C wrote: Please, could someone kindly post the mailing address of the Sanskrit Departemnt of Sampurnanand Sanskrit University? thank you The postal address is: Sampurnanad Sanskrit University, Varanasi-221 002, India Note that there is no Sanskrit Dept. as such; it is a Sanskrit University. You might address your letter to the Registrar or to the specific department like Tulanatmakadharmadarsanavibhaga [Department of Comparative Religion and Philosophy], Vyakarana etc. Best. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail From Ursula.Graefe at T-ONLINE.DE Fri Dec 1 09:14:16 2000 From: Ursula.Graefe at T-ONLINE.DE (Graefe) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 10:14:16 +0100 Subject: Vidyapati Message-ID: <161227064820.23782.4819020761168602958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Daniela, W.G. Archer (ed.), Love Songs of Vidyapati, transl. Deben Bhattacharya, Unesco Collection of Rep. Works Indian Series, London 1963 Not much, but maybe it helps - greetings Ursula From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Dec 1 19:15:48 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 11:15:48 -0800 Subject: Genetics issues in ancient India Message-ID: <161227064844.23782.7107934970713770959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: > On another note of caution, those who eagerly look forward > to genetics solving the problem of Aryan origins (on both > sides of the debate), should be prepared to be disappointed > somewhat, with respect to time scales. It is not going to > be easy. The science usually talks in terms of many kilo > years (kya). As far as I can see from the current state of > research, the conclusions of this field of science are more > definitive about trends from 6000-10000 years ago (and more) > as compared to events from 3000 years ago. Genetic evidence > tends to be more reliable for periods over which evolutionary > changes take place, and also for extremely short time periods, > spanning 3-4 generations, but they can be sometimes quite > inconclusive for the 5000 years of recorded human history. I'm in full agreement with this and the rest of your last post. This key point was missed when the paper by Kivisild et al. came out last year (Current Biology 8 Nov. 1999, 9[22]:1331-1334), which focused on early migrational patterns into India. When the paper first appeared, it was widely cited as providing evidence against any Aryan migration (e.g., by Disotell TR, Current Biology 9[24]: R925-8). What no one bothered to note was that the divergence time that Kivisild found for the most recent influx of the putative Caucasoid haplogroup U into India (putative since this too is in dispute) was given within errors of + or - 3,000 years BP. Error ranges of up to 6,000 years, needless to say, can wipe out a big hunk of history. When you systematically review these studies, you get the impression that linguistics may remain the best evidence for studying the Aryan migration issue for quite some time. Another common error in these papers -- one shared by the Kivisild & Disotell studies -- is to assume close overlap between genes and language, ignoring acculturation issues. On this obvious but often overlooked point, I cite a post from Mark Hall this morning on the NEAsianStudies List: > Since it has come up repeatedly on this list and others, the equating of > genes, pots, peoples and languages, an interesting article that hasn't seen > much press is: > > Comas, Calafell, et al. (2000) Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis > shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages, > AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY Vol. 112, 5-16. > > In a quick summary, using 360 base pairs from the mtDNA sequence, they > looked at the mtDNA from 45 Georgians and 29 Kurds. Georgians are > Kartvelian speakers while the Kurds are Indo-Iranian speakers. The genetic > analysis points only to minor differences between the Georgians and Kurds > and the rest of the European populations and very different from the Basque > population (which Georgians are often linked to). Their conclusion is the > linking of European mtDNA with the Indo-European languages is seriously > questioned. Hopefully, enough on this topic for now. The potentials for abuse of these studies in studying migrational issues are manifold -- and not anything suitable for detailed discussion on this List. Steve Farmer From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 1 19:30:03 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 11:30:03 -0800 Subject: Genetics issues in ancient India Message-ID: <161227064846.23782.14090839283213770999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Another common error in these papers -- one shared by the Kivisild & >Disotell studies -- is to assume close overlap between genes and >language, ignoring acculturation issues. Take the case of the Tamil and Sinhalese in Sri Lanka, or Kannada and Marathi persons in India. Genes from parallel castes will be almost identical, even tho' they speak Dravidian and Aryan langauges. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Fri Dec 1 11:48:16 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 11:48:16 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227064822.23782.4099184466621572316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:54:33 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: >.. > >With "kRSNa tvac"(=black skin) in RV 1.130.8 and 6.40.1 >and . Vac refers to speech and not skin. Hence it means bad speech than bad skin From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Dec 1 19:52:35 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 11:52:35 -0800 Subject: Genetics issues in ancient India Message-ID: <161227064850.23782.3844445831861016099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satya Upadhya writes: > Here is an interesting article (from the San Francisco Chronicle) on this > problem: > > www.dalitstan.org/holocaust/invasion/histgene.html This "news" item, which originally appeared in Newsday, is a good example of the kind of wild distortion that we've been talking about. When you compare the article with the two research papers on this topic written by this group, you will find no evidence that even vaguely justifies such a sweeping interpretation. For one of those original papers, see: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/62000214/START Cf. also with their short earlier piece in Nature, for which no abstract exists: Nature 1998 Oct 15;395(6703):651-2. Female gene flow stratifies Hindu castes. Bamshad MJ, Watkins WS, Dixon ME, Jorde LB, Rao BB, Naidu JM, Prasad BV, Rasanayagam A, Hammer MF. The papers by Kivisild & Distell (cited in earlier posts) have been wildly misinterpreted to show that no Aryan migration ever occurred. The work of Bamshad and the rest of his group have been wildly misinterpreted to show not only that a migration occurred, but that it was in fact a full-blown Aryan Invasion of the old Mortimer Wheeler style. None of these papers by geneticists were written with cognizance of any of the complex acculturation processes involved in this problem. Steve Farmer From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 1 12:01:02 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 12:01:02 +0000 Subject: Genetics issues in ancient India Message-ID: <161227064824.23782.5907688642759061352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >But NB: What I said was that mtDNA studies "may not be as >relevant" as studies of y-chromosome polymorphisms to the Aryan >question ? not that they "may not be relevant" at all. This >difference isn't trivial. Sorry for having been a little unclear. I have read your page listing the genetics papers, and am aware that you don't make the mistake I referred to. My post was meant as a preemptive and cautionary note to those who *would* make such a mistake. It is certainly tempting enough to make such an assumption, and to not recognize it as a fallacy at all. >position. The data published by Strauss in _Science_ 286 (24 Dec. >1999) suggests that paternal and maternal mtDNA sometimes do >undergo sexual recombination. How and when this occurs is not >currently known. What *is* certain is that if this is a normal >situation, the value of mtDNA studies in investigating I must apologize for referring only to Strauss's news report in Science (24 Dec 1999). This journal usually gets some of its own staff to write a short report on technical papers of wide interest, to make it accessible to a bigger audience. The proper scientific reference for mtDNA recombination may be found in the same issue of Science, in the following paper. _Linkage Disequilibrium and Recombination in Hominid Mitochondrial DNA_, Philip Awadalla, Adam Eyre-Walker and John Maynard Smith, Science, 286 (5449): 2524-2525. As in all fields of knowledge, basic changes in time-honored assumptions do not go unchallenged. Many objections have been raised to the above study, from four different research groups, and the authors have responded, in the 16 June 2000 issue of Science, 288 (5473): 1931. The evidence on recombination in mtDNA is still coming in. In the 16 June response, the authors conclude, "... recombination does occur in mtDNA. The next challenge will be to estimate the rate at which recombination occurs, and test whether hominids are unique in allowing it to happen." Till the rate and extent of this recombination are investigated and fully understood, geneticists will continue to give importance to mtDNA studies, and to think that maternal inheritance is perhaps still predominant. Re: Y chromosomes, there are recombination events that are even more significant than in mtDNA. There is a small part of the Y chromosome that is conserved and known to be non- recombinant, but it is not yet clear whether Y chromosome studies will be universally accepted as more important than mtDNA studies. Recombination may be a "sometimes" event for DNA in mitochondria, but it is well known to be a "more than often" event for DNA in the sex chromosomes. Simply put (I pointed this out a year ago on this list), the Y chromosome in any given man's cells is not an identical copy of that in his father's cells. It will always have a variable amount of DNA derived from the X chromosome provided by his mother. (A similar situation obtains with X chromosomes in any given woman. They contain DNA derived from the father.) That is part of the reason why no two siblings of the same gender look exactly like each other, except for identical twins. This considerably complicates Y chromosome data. Either one has to restrict attention to the non-recombinant portion of the Y chromosome, and ignore the genetic information encoded in the female half of the population, or one has to account for uncertainties resulting from sexual recombination events in each generation, in addition to other reasons for genetic variability. Incidentally, that is the reason why population genetics has hitherto tended to concentrate on mtDNA evidence. So, mtDNA studies will continue to remain more than a little relevant for migration studies. In the near future, they will indeed remain important, but a possible paternal inheritance pattern will have to be factored in. Statistically speaking, this may modify the current picture only slightly. Or it may end up having a huge effect. We don't know for sure yet. The whole thing is still very, very new. I envisage a substantial period of conflict regarding the evidence before it becomes quite clear how significant this factor will be. Meanwhile, the recognition that paternal inheritance in mtDNA may not be absolutely zero means that Y chromosome studies will start to receive more attention, but these are not going to replace mtDNA studies en masse, any time soon. Moreover, as of now, all these issues are based on statistical analyses. Only if there is experimentally observed evidence of mitochondrial recombination during fertilization will this become accepted universally. On another note of caution, those who eagerly look forward to genetics solving the problem of Aryan origins (on both sides of the debate), should be prepared to be disappointed somewhat, with respect to time scales. It is not going to be easy. The science usually talks in terms of many kilo years (kya). As far as I can see from the current state of research, the conclusions of this field of science are more definitive about trends from 6000-10000 years ago (and more) as compared to events from 3000 years ago. Genetic evidence tends to be more reliable for periods over which evolutionary changes take place, and also for extremely short time periods, spanning 3-4 generations, but they can be sometimes quite inconclusive for the ~5000 years of recorded human history. Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Dec 1 20:39:40 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 12:39:40 -0800 Subject: bibliographic selection on adresses (Was :Sampurnand Sanskrit University) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227064853.23782.9088582676352419044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following URL is also useful. http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/cdemello/univ.html Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 01:49 PM 12/01/2000 -0500, you wrote: >For universities and research institutes there is a reference book >which will be in the reference collection of every university library >and I would hope many public libraries: The World of Learning. It is >updated and published annually. > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Dec 1 20:56:00 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 12:56:00 -0800 Subject: Original language of Yoga Suutra In-Reply-To: <20001130131304.11876.qmail@web311.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227064855.23782.13708692828531929300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Dumezil, the following article is worth reading: Lincoln, Bruce. 1998. Rewriting the German War God: Georges Dumezil, Politics and Scholarship in the Late 1930s. History of Religions 37, no. 3: 187-208. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 05:13 AM 11/30/2000 -0800, you wrote: > N. J. Allen himself writes in Hinduism as Indo-European, > (p. 21, Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia, 1999) > " However , Indology's general hostility to or neglect of Dumezil > cannot be wholly explained by external factors. Explicit attacks > on the content of his arguments have a long tradition (for a recent > instance see Schlerath 1995-6) ..." > > B. Schlerath, 1995-6: Georges Dumezil und die Reconstruktion der > indo-germanischen Kultur, Kratylos 40:1-48, 41:1-67 > > Is there any critique on Allen's IE origins of yoga? > > Regards, > SM From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 1 21:43:36 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 13:43:36 -0800 Subject: Buddha and Hitler Message-ID: <161227064858.23782.13987530485341865617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There was a PBS program. I think the British narrator Michael Wood (1948-), producer of Legacy produced this. On Arians and Nazi Germany. There was a mention about a top Indologist speaking before Hitler, Himmler and other elite leaders of 1930-40s Germany proclaiming that Hitler's book and the teachings of the Buddha are very similar or same... Who was that famous Indologist? Thanks, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Dec 1 18:49:51 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 13:49:51 -0500 Subject: bibliographic selection on adresses (Was :Sampurnand Sanskrit University) Message-ID: <161227064842.23782.12541770371045519207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For universities and research institutes there is a reference book which will be in the reference collection of every university library and I would hope many public libraries: The World of Learning. It is updated and published annually. Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 1 19:47:57 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 14:47:57 -0500 Subject: Genetics issues in ancient India Message-ID: <161227064848.23782.10413173865831016555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Swaminathan Madhuresan > >Another common error in these papers -- one shared by the Kivisild& > >Disotell studies -- is to assume close overlap between genes and > >language, ignoring acculturation issues. > >Take the case of the Tamil and Sinhalese in Sri Lanka, or >Kannada and Marathi persons in India. Genes from parallel castes will >almost identical, even tho' they speak Dravidian and Aryan >langauges. Was there any survey re: Anglo Indians in India? Many of them were there in India since Britishers first landed. Some of them I over heard Bangalore still look foreigners who just landed, but they can speak impressively in original Kannada and Hindi. If Aryans could mix up quickly in 500 years how long it will take for Anglo Indians to look like Punjabis? I hope this will be a quickie. Regards Bhadraiah _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 1 15:04:00 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 15:04:00 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227064830.23782.12230755757065330903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I can testify only for my (north Indian) community -- "Mathur Vaishya" -- >by customs widows wear white. -Arun Gupta Thanks. Similar info is told in many ethnological accts. of North India. In old India and despite effects in modern India of fashion and Christianity/Islam, brides by customs wear red and, widows wear pure white. White is the color of mourning and prescribed for widows, and seeing white sareed widows is a bad omen of misfortune. OTOH, devadasis were the only womenfolk wearing colored saree throughout their lives traditionally. They are nityasumangalis and repositories of all arts and learning. They do kumbhaarathis for temple deities, and this is supposed to remove the "evil eye" cast upon even the gods themselves! Devadasis never wear white sarees, and in old inscriptions they are called "mANikkatti" ('jewels of the society') and this all have surely to do with some customs of the ancient Mesopotamia. Traditionally, ladies have much more freedoms in the South. In Kerala, this was exploited by Namburies in mid-late 1st millennium by devising sambandha vivaham alliances. One of the ill effects of Islamic invasions in the North is women losing their liberty and going into seclusion in the mediaeval times. "With the coming of the Muslims in the tenth century, Hindus in northern India adopted the system of parda, whereby women from puberty to old age were screened from the sight of all men save their husbands and close relatives. Influences from the Tamils in the south during the eigth to the twelfth centuries, however, gave women new importance in some Hindu religious circles (see the discussion of ZAktism later in the chapter), leading to the loosening of many restrictions placed on females by male-dominated Hindu society. The observance of parda began to be abandoned. Today it is almost completely ignored by Hindu women." (p.105, A.L.Basham, The origins and development of Classsical Hinduism.) Regards, N. Ganesan _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Fri Dec 1 15:30:47 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 15:30:47 +0000 Subject: Caucasian genes in Dravidian wombs Message-ID: <161227064833.23782.8197743547367094761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:40:48 +0100, Dr Y. Vassilkov wrote: . >synthesis was at work But for many decades nobody among people dealing with >ancient Indian culture defines the coming of IA languages to India in terms >of the "Aryan invasion". . Few days back, Indologist Naga Ganesan wrote: How does the hating of black color from Iran/India from the invading Aryans (c. 1000 BCE) become Indigenous Aryan theory?. As of now, some Indians like Naga Ganesan do subscribe to Ayran invasion From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sat Dec 2 00:18:01 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 16:18:01 -0800 Subject: Buddha and Hitler Message-ID: <161227064871.23782.15739525744507977454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Indologist mentioned in the PBS program is Walther Wust. The narrator of the program comments on his speech to the SS in March, 1937, in Munich. The ideas of Wust, including the speech mentioned in the PBS program, are discussed in pp. 89-91 of: Pollock, Sheldon. 1993. Deep Orientalism?: Notes on Sanskrit and Power Beyond the Raj. In Orientalism and the Postcolonial Predicament: Perspectives on South Asia, eds. Carol A. Breckenridge and Peter van der Veer, 77-133. South Asia Seminar Series. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press. Papers presented at the 44th Annual South Asia Seminar held at the University of Pennsylvania, 1988/1989. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 01:43 PM 12/01/2000 -0800, you wrote: >There was a PBS program. I think the British narrator Michael Wood (1948-), >producer of Legacy produced this. On Arians and Nazi Germany. > >There was a mention about a top Indologist speaking before Hitler, >Himmler and other elite leaders of 1930-40s Germany proclaiming that >Hitler's book and the teachings of the Buddha are very similar >or same... > >Who was that famous Indologist? > >Thanks, >SM From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Dec 1 21:52:48 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 16:52:48 -0500 Subject: Early German work on Indian myths - help for ID Message-ID: <161227064860.23782.16165902709305937019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We are acquiring a volume in German consisting entirely of illustrations of Indian mythology. From the style I would expect it to be from the late 18th or early 19th c. The 7 tables are numbered i-iii, i-iv. The script is Roman, not Fraktur. Tab. I has these captions: Die 21 Welten tragende Schildkroete...; Die Unterwelt Patalam... Tab. II: Die VII Himmelreiche der ober-welt oder die VII Loks vel Surgams Tab. III: Mortion v. Murto, die VII Kreise der Mittelwelt.... Tab. I-IV, larger, lack captions except for figure numbers and consist of 30 or more small figures per page. Some appear directly copied from Indian pictures though without any attempt, or at least any successful attempt, to render the style. E.g. one scrupulously renders the torn corners of the original page, perhaps fearing some image may have been lost. Others appear like nothing I have ever seen as far as iconography goes. I suspect some of these have been either created by the artist from textual sources or are from syncretistic combinations with Western occultist or unity-of-all-mythologies thought; many strikingly resemble illustrations from Western alchemical books. Fig. 112 and 113 of Tab. 1 seem to be based on the Four Beasts of Ezekiel and Revelations with the addition of a cobra in the first case and a man in a yoga posture and a goat in the second. I have examined our copies of the following early German works on Indian mythology and found they are different: Dorow. Die indische mythologie Vjasa (periodical) Wolheim da Fonseca. Mythologie des alten Indien Kleuker. Das brahmanische religionssystem Petiscus. Der Olymp Kanne. Pantheum der aeltesten Naturphilosophie Kanne. Erte urkunden der geschichte, oder, Allgemeine mythologie Bryant, New system; or, An analysis of ancient mythology (in case there might have been a German trans.) Rhode. Ueber religioese bildung, mythologie und philosophie der Hindus. LC does not have a copy of Kanne. System der indischen mythe; oder, Chronus, which according to the OCLC record has illustrations. I have also checked Mitter, Much Maligned Monsters and found nothing similar. Could anyone help me identify this intriguing item? Thanks, Allen Thrasher Library of Congress From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 2 00:36:46 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 18:36:46 -0600 Subject: Genetics issues in ancient India Message-ID: <161227064873.23782.16961402676114405606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Steve Farmer >..... >..None of these papers by geneticists were written with cognizance >of any of the complex acculturation processes involved in this problem. > >Steve Farmer To make a prior assumption that complex acculturation took place and then trying to reconcile genetic evidence is hardly scientific. The process of acculturation could have been any direction - from west to east or east to west. If genetic evidence is to be of any value - it has to show independent evidence of migration of IE speaking people into India. Otherwise it will be merely data fitting. Regards, Subrahmanya _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 1 18:43:23 2000 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 18:43:23 +0000 Subject: Genetics issues in ancient India Message-ID: <161227064840.23782.16183454411884672026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is an interesting article (from the San Francisco Chronicle) on this problem: www.dalitstan.org/holocaust/invasion/histgene.html -Satya _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 1 22:04:17 2000 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 22:04:17 +0000 Subject: Genetics issues in ancient India (Tantrism) Message-ID: <161227064863.23782.11174241983378380355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve, thanks for that info. I have not read the two papers cited in the article, so i am not in a position to argue with u on this. Note, however, that one of the researchers in these studies directly told the writer of this "news item" that an Aryan "invasion" had taken place. Since there are conflicting expert opinions on this matter, i won't say more for now. As an aside, i would like to know whether any recent studies on Tantrism have been done? Is it not true that concrete relics of Tantrism have been found in the Harappan region? Further, is it not true that there have been two traditions in Hindu culture--the Vedic and the Tantric--the former corresponding to the pastoral nomads who migrated into North Western India and had a patriachal culture; and the latter being the original inhabitants of the land, who were agriculturists following a matriachal culture. As another aside, is it not true that Tantrism was materialistic in nature, in its original form (some have claimed, for example, that the Charvaka philosophers in ancient India were actually Tantriks[this is what some medieval philosophers like Gunaratna say]), and only later did it become infused with spiritualistic elements. Thanking you, Satya >From: Steve Farmer >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: Genetics issues in ancient India >Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:52:35 -0800 > >Satya Upadhya writes: > > > Here is an interesting article (from the San Francisco Chronicle) on >this > > problem: > > > > www.dalitstan.org/holocaust/invasion/histgene.html > >This "news" item, which originally appeared in Newsday, is a good >example of the kind of wild distortion that we've been talking >about. When you compare the article with the two research papers >on this topic written by this group, you will find no evidence >that even vaguely justifies such a sweeping interpretation. For >one of those original papers, see: > >http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/62000214/START > >Cf. also with their short earlier piece in Nature, for which no >abstract exists: > >Nature 1998 Oct 15;395(6703):651-2. Female gene flow stratifies >Hindu castes. >Bamshad MJ, Watkins WS, Dixon ME, Jorde LB, Rao BB, Naidu JM, >Prasad BV, Rasanayagam A, Hammer MF. > >The papers by Kivisild & Distell (cited in earlier posts) have >been wildly misinterpreted to show that no Aryan migration ever >occurred. The work of Bamshad and the rest of his group have been >wildly misinterpreted to show not only that a migration occurred, >but that it was in fact a full-blown Aryan Invasion of the old >Mortimer Wheeler style. > >None of these papers by geneticists were written with cognizance >of any of the complex acculturation processes involved in this problem. > >Steve Farmer _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 1 22:51:19 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 22:51:19 +0000 Subject: Genetics issues in ancient India Message-ID: <161227064865.23782.1638821794575353002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: >The papers by Kivisild & Distell (cited in earlier posts) have >been wildly misinterpreted to show that no Aryan migration ever >occurred. The work of Bamshad and the rest of his group have been >wildly misinterpreted to show not only that a migration occurred, >but that it was in fact a full-blown Aryan Invasion of the old >Mortimer Wheeler style. You see, that is part of the problem of talking across disciplines with entirely different foci. Most physical scientists do not know the nuances of the humanistic and social scientific problems, and most social scientists do not know the subtleties behind scientific conclusions. That is part of the reason I went into some detail on technical issues in my previous post, although it seemed a little off-topic for this list. Given the great potential for misinterpretation and wilful political misuse, I think the humanities and social science people should make an effort to better inform themselves about the new results that are pouring in from genetic researchers every day. Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 1 23:37:00 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 00 23:37:00 +0000 Subject: Original language of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227064867.23782.17884502063502130873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Dumezil, see also the ref. given by Hiltebeitel http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9901&L=indology&P=R5665 -------- On Dumezil, the following article is worth reading: Lincoln, Bruce. 1998. Rewriting the German War God: Georges Dumezil, Politics and Scholarship in the Late 1930s. History of Religions 37, no. 3: 187-208. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 05:13 AM 11/30/2000 -0800, you wrote: > N. J. Allen himself writes in Hinduism as Indo-European, > (p. 21, Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia, 1999) > " However , Indology's general hostility to or neglect of Dumezil > cannot be wholly explained by external factors. Explicit attacks > on the content of his arguments have a long tradition (for a recent > instance see Schlerath 1995-6) ..." > > B. Schlerath, 1995-6: Georges Dumezil und die Reconstruktion der > indo-germanischen Kultur, Kratylos 40:1-48, 41:1-67 > > Is there any critique on Allen's IE origins of yoga? > > Regards, > SM _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From lmfosse at ELENDER.HU Fri Dec 1 23:43:07 2000 From: lmfosse at ELENDER.HU (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 00 00:43:07 +0100 Subject: SV: Buddha and Hitler Message-ID: <161227064869.23782.9639897462091572649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan [SMTP:smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM] skrev 1. desember 2000 22:44: > There was a PBS program. I think the British narrator Michael Wood (1948-), > producer of Legacy produced this. On Arians and Nazi Germany. > > There was a mention about a top Indologist speaking before Hitler, > Himmler and other elite leaders of 1930-40s Germany proclaiming that > Hitler's book and the teachings of the Buddha are very similar > or same... This can only have been Walter Wuest, an Indological scholar with a SS connection. He was a compentent scholar (which means that you may have to read his work on some subjects), but with a bad reputation for his politics. I believe Sheldon Pollock has written about Wuest in a paper called "Deep orientalism..." (I am afraid I don't have the whole title available, and being far away from my library, I can only hope others will fill in the missing data.) I don't recall Wuest lecturing for Hitler, but he apparently lectured for the SS on the Buddha if I remember Pollock correctly. LM Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Sat Dec 2 00:56:59 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 00 00:56:59 +0000 Subject: [Mirabai and Vidyapati] Message-ID: <161227064875.23782.4004213710538241000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jogesh Panda wrote: >There are at least a dozen translations of Mirabai's poems into English. I do >not remember if any of these has the original as well except for the >translation [not always reliable] by S. Futehally which contains a romanized >text. I have seen the translations of Pritish Nandi [a dear friend, but a very >creative translator], S. Futehally's "translation" is really interpretation. It is not clear if she understood many of the words. Mirabai's original language is not easily understood. It is in a Rajasthani dialect. Popular version of her padas are closer to standard Hindi, but not the original version. I would not trust a translation by anyone not well versed in old Hindi dialects. Unfortunately the generation that understood old Hindi dialects is gradually dying out. Soon Indians will know Mirabai only through English translations, the only Indian language english-medium-educated Indians today are comfortable with. Futehally's and Pritish Nandi's "translations" will prevail. Yashwant From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Dec 2 07:50:07 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 00 07:50:07 +0000 Subject: CRSI 2001 Call for Papers (fwd) Message-ID: <161227064879.23782.14332765502589540779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 12:50:17 -0500 From: John Cort Subject: Re: CRSI 2001 Call for Papers CONFERENCE ON RELIGION IN SOUTH INDIA CALL FOR PAPERS 2001 The 2001 workshop of the Conference on Religion in South India (CRSI) will be a felicitation of the career of John Braisted Carman of Harvard University. The theme of the workshop will be "Comparative Theologies in South India." This theme will allow scholars, both those who have worked, taught and studied with John, and those who only know of John's scholarship through reading it, to gather to address research topics that reflect upon John's many scholarly interests in South India. We invite papers that address questions, issues, and themes in the area of South Indian theology and theologies--Christian, Hindu, and other--for a conversation that resonates with the distinguished scholarship that has marked John Carman's career to date. The workshop will be held from the afternoon of Thursday, June 14, through midday on Sunday, June 17, 2001, on the campus of Mount Holyoke College in South Hadley, Massachusetts. The two-and-a-half working days will follow the usual CRSI format of allowing for more leisurely presentation and in-depth discussion of papers than found in the larger annual conventions. Saturday evening will be reserved for a festive celebration of John's career by all present. The CRSI website (www.emory.edu/COLLEGE/RELIGION/crsi) provides some information about the history of CRSI as well as details of past workshops. At a later date this site will also provide information on fees, registration, and travel for the 2001 workshop. Submit one-page paper proposals BY 20 JANUARY 2001 to: Prof. John E. Cort, Department of Religion, Denison University, Granville, OH 43023; cort at denison.edu. From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 2 16:15:21 2000 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 00 08:15:21 -0800 Subject: lokayata/azvamedha Message-ID: <161227064894.23782.11063759802815663912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> " However, there was another kind of realist who forced the Brahmans to more than merely shrugging their shoulders. These called themselves Lokayatikes, or the worldly-wise. [polemics snipped] 'There is no heaven, no final liberation, nor any soul in another world, 'Nor do the actions of the four castes, orders, etc.,produce any real effort. [snipped] 'All the well-known formulae of the pundits, japhari, taphari, etc. 'And all the obscene rites for the queen commanded in the Asvamedha, [... ...]" This, along with more extensive other polemical statments agaist the brahmins by lokayatas is given in p. 148-150, Iqbal Singh, Gautama Buddha, Oxford, 1997. Are these statements found in ancient lokayata sources, or just a modern construct about lokayatas? Prasad -------------- From: "Steven E. Lindquist" Off-the-cuff, Walker's description seems "okay" (given its brevity). There is more than one text regarding the azvamedha and he may be blending various aspects from different texts/recensions (if he has looked at the primary sources...I don't know). For example descriptions of the horse, its color, etc. varies across texts. Also, if I recall correctly, Madhyandina SB does not send the king out with the horse to roam for a year (does any text? I don't know). While I do not currently have the SB handy, I recall also that in Madh. SB that the king is to be in seclusion, not to do his kingly duties, not to engage in intercourse, etc. while the horse is roaming. Whether all these things happened literally or were ritually represented is unanswerable in the early sources. I tend to lean towards the former. That said, however, I see no reason to necessarily assume that a king performing the azvamedha was actually trying to conquer new territory (especially if my memory of his seclusion is correct). Ritual error (i.e., dead or captured horse being the most extreme) would be quite possible, not to mention very embarrassing for the king (there are expiations for this, but they are also for accidental or natural death). The king in an azvamedha may simply have been ritually asserting or inaugurating his authority over his territory (perhaps newly acquired, perhaps not). Bear in mind that the army "letting the horse wander" needs only to feed to horse to keep it from running off and starting a war. -- Steven E. Lindquist email: s-lindquist at the-foundry.net In the US: In India: Doctoral Candidate AIIS Junior Fellow/Affiliated Research Scholar Dept. of Asian Studies Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute University of TX at Austin Pune, Maharashtra -- _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 2 15:07:59 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 00 09:07:59 -0600 Subject: SV: genetic markers revisited Message-ID: <161227064890.23782.3803092885917448093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Lars Martin Fosse > >That is of course perfectly correct, but my impression was that by now the >word "invasion" on this list had become "short-hand" for the various >migration models we have discussed. The old-fashioned "invasion model" >is dead, the various migration models live. > >Lars Martin Fosse > Oh...So invasion is 'shorthand' for migration !!! This is indeed a very profound statement. Subrahmanya _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 2 11:53:11 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 00 11:53:11 +0000 Subject: Genetics issues in ancient India Message-ID: <161227064883.23782.12664731482389506711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can see that there are many misconceptions and misplaced expectations about what contributions genetics can or cannot make to Indology. Hopefully, this post will clarify some of these issues for a while. ----------------- Satya Upadhya wrote: >thanks for that info. I have not read the two papers cited in the article, >so i am not in a position to argue with u on this. Note, however, that one >of the researchers in these studies directly told the writer of this "news >item" that an Aryan "invasion" had taken place. That's probably because that is what the researcher must have learnt back in high school. The genetic data do not prove or disprove the old theory of Aryan invasion. Instead, the data are interpreted according to what the genetic scientists assume to be the accepted theory among the relevant social scientists. Besides, journalists are not the most reliable sources of scientific knowledge, even if they publish interviews with scientists. ----------------- "Subrahmanya S." wrote: >If genetic evidence is to be of any value - it has to show >independent evidence of migration of IE speaking people into >India. Otherwise it will be merely data fitting. By the same token, those who believe in the opposite theory will have to show that the genetic evidence supports migration of IE speaking people out of India. As of now, genetic evidence neither intrinsically supports movement into India nor suggests movement out of India *during the time period that interests everybody here*. What it says is that there is a correlation in shared genetic traits in Indian and European populations, but this is not very earth-shattering news. What is certain is that both Asian and European populations have African roots, going back to many tens of thousands of years before 1500 BCE. Even that is not news to the archaeologist or to the biologist of the old kind, but it may be news to other kinds of experts. As for data fitting, a lot of good science begins with that. There is nothing wrong with it. A scientist should question existing assumptions only for scientific reasons, not for political or emotional reasons. And scientific reasons arise from data and whether they do fit under current theory or not. ---------------- Rajesh Kochhar wrote: >How can genetic evidence say anything about an invasion? Also,since >the Vedic tradition was patrilineal any meaningful comparison with >genetic data would be possible if the genetic markers used in the >study are derived from the father side rather than the mother side. >Whosoever said ignorance is bliss surely had in mind the genetic >scientist's highly desirable ignorance about ancient Indian history. Well, whether an ancient tradition was patrilineal or not, there was always a need for both a father and a mother to create a baby. Unless of course, the Vedic scientists had discovered the secret to reproduction through cloning. Even the pAyasam after a putra-kAma-ishTi or a fruit given by a .rshi had to be consumed by the prospective mother(s), not by a prospective father. Vedic society was not unique in being patrilineal. And to put it plainly, patrilineality does not mean that fair-skinned/Aryan/Vedic men lived in men-only groups, and took their pleasure with any passing dark-skinned/Dravidian/Munda/native/tribal woman who caught their fancy. They would have been more concerned about protecting "their" fair-skinned/Aryan/Vedic women from the fancy of any passing dark-skinned/Dravidian/Munda/native/ tribal man. Genetic scientists studying populations are interested in comparing which group is genetically related to which other group. They choose to study the maternal line because of solid scientific reasons. Nuclear DNA in any cell is a 50-50 mixture from mother and father, while mtDNA is believed to be solely maternal. This has only now been questioned, but then there is almost nothing that is solely paternal. The genetic scientists are not totally ignoring the paternal line. They have waited for development of better techniques, before touching the more complicated X and Y chromosome data. And one can't develop better techniques without first studying the simpler thing, and coming to basic conclusions from that simpler thing. When relating genetic data to specific groups of people, the genetic scientists take care to factor in things like endogamy, exogamy and hypergamy. They get this information from the anthropologists, philologists etc. So the level of their ignorance about ancient Indian (or any other) history only reflects the level of ignorance of the social science which they follow. Wasn't it Thoreau who said that a man is ignorant only with the ignorance of his times and wise with its wisdom? The same techniques as used for studying African, American, Chinese, SE Asian and European peoples are also used to study Indian populations. Is there something basically wrong with this approach when it comes to India and the Vedic tradition? Sincerely, Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From lmfosse at ELENDER.HU Sat Dec 2 10:58:48 2000 From: lmfosse at ELENDER.HU (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 00 11:58:48 +0100 Subject: SV: genetic markers Message-ID: <161227064881.23782.2760686285487591579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajesh Kochhar [SMTP:rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN] skrev 2. desember 2000 08:18: > How can genetic evidence say anything about an invasion? Also,since the Vedic tradition was patrilineal any meaningful comparison with genetic data would be possible if the genetic markers used in the study are derived from the father side rather than the mother side. > Whosoever said ignorance is bliss surely had in mind the genetic scientist's highly desirable ignorance about ancient Indian history. I suggest you consider the influx of Europeans into the following areas in recent times: Africa, the Americas, and Australia. Provided that Europeans are genetically different in some respects from the various natives in the areas, genetic evidence should tell us something. But all these invasions are historically so recent that we only need to use our eyes to see the evidence. Fancy science is hardly necessary. If we now assume that, say, the white population of Africa starts interbreeding with the black popul ation and goes on doing this for the next 3000 years, at the end of that period we might need fancy science to "discover" the invasion. As for the patrilinear aspect, I don't quite get your point. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Sat Dec 2 07:18:13 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 00 12:48:13 +0530 Subject: genetic markers Message-ID: <161227064877.23782.3323995099085825514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How can genetic evidence say anything about an invasion? Also,since the Vedic tradition was patrilineal any meaningful comparison with genetic data would be possible if the genetic markers used in the study are derived from the father side rather than the mother side. Whosoever said ignorance is bliss surely had in mind the genetic scientist's highly desirable ignorance about ancient Indian history. rajesh kochhar From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 2 15:24:50 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 00 15:24:50 +0000 Subject: genetic markers revisited Message-ID: <161227064891.23782.14182068691436194346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >example).As a test case from relatively recent times one could look at the >north western Indian population which presumably absorbed the Greeks who >came before,with and after Alexander. > 1. That calls for highly specific tests on selected individuals. Currently, population genetics is largely a statistical science. How is one to know that any given individual or even social group in NW India or Pakistan or Afghanistan has such a unique ancestry? Surely, the same northwestern population has also absorbed various other peoples of diverse origins, in the 2300 years since then. And if the date of Rgveda is closer to 1000 CE, Alexander was only 700 to 800 years younger - not very recent after all. Unless we can dig up an old grave of a specific date and salvage DNA from it for study, there are too many unknowns. So, as far as genetics is concerned, the problem may be rather ill-posed. 2. Moreover, the error bars span kilo years in this field. That makes this issue even more problematic. In other words, genetics may not yet be equipped to address this unambiguously. 3. The current results comparing some European mtDNA and higher caste Indian mtDNA already show that the two populations share common *maternal* ancestry. Under the idea that the Aryans came from outside, if Vedic ruling men marrying women from outside their pale was a frequent occurrence, then these women would have introduced very different mtDNA types into their descendant populations. One would then expect contemporary Kshatriya mtDNA to have less similarity with European mtDNA and more with Asian mtDNA. But one of the papers listed on Farmer's site shows the opposite to be the case, and says that Kshatriya mtDNA shares more in common with European mtDNA than even Brahmana mtDNA, which is closer to Asian mtDNA types. In fact, one other paper that I have seen reports similarities between some Brahmana mtDNA and SE Asian mtDNA types, with the latter showing older features. So, even if textual evidence can be found for Vedic kings marrying women from outside, the average population of Kshatriyas seems to relate a very different story. More Vedic priests may have married outside women than Vedic kings. 4. However, one could argue that contemporary Kshatriya groups are only remote descendants of Vedic royalty. Satyavati may have been a purely mythical character. The Mauryas and the Guptas, on the other hand, were historical people, and we know for certain that they married women from the "Indo-Greek" dynasties. Modern Kshatriya groups are then nearer descendants of Greek, Persian, Saka, Kushana and other elite groups of a more western origin, which may account for the similarity with European mtDNA types. Thus, this genetic evidence may not be very informative about Vedic priesthood and royalty, or Aryan invasion/migration, after all! It may have more to do with the theory of the more recent Central Asian origin of the Rajputs. The interpretation of such data depends heavily on how much history one chooses to ignore. The problem lies less with the science behind it and more with those for whom Indian history remains suspended in time, with the Rgveda. >Genetic studies cannot possibly distinguish between invasion and >migration. > Yes, and similarly for acculturation. However, there is also the possibility that genetic results may not be able to distinguish between movement from west to east and movement from east to west. Scalar correlations from genetic data often attain directionality only due to other considerations. The more one looks for older markers, in an attempt to address this problem, the more one is forced to talk about a period that is much earlier than the possible date of Rgveda. This gap only increases, as and when the date of Rgveda is brought down, from 1700 to 1500 to 1200 to 1000 to 900 BCE. At least, that is how things stand now. Best regards, Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From lmfosse at ELENDER.HU Sat Dec 2 14:28:27 2000 From: lmfosse at ELENDER.HU (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 00 15:28:27 +0100 Subject: SV: genetic markers revisited Message-ID: <161227064887.23782.1210555713751631740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajesh Kochhar [SMTP:rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN] skrev 2. desember 2000 14:35: > Genetic studies cannot possibly distinguish between invasion and migration. That is of course perfectly correct, but my impression was that by now the word "invasion" on this list had become "short-hand" for the various migration models we have discussed. The old-fashioned "invasion model" is dead, the various migration models live. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Sat Dec 2 13:35:25 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 00 19:05:25 +0530 Subject: genetic markers revisited Message-ID: <161227064885.23782.3142965140546931366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The question of genetic markers from the father's and mother's side easily lends itself to flippancy,but remains a non-trivial question.It would be instructive to obtain twin marker data from the same set of people to see what they say.If the Vedic people came from outside, then this exercise could throw light on the numbers involved.It has been argued (by Madhav Deshpande,for example) that the Vedic royalty married women from outside their pale (Satyavati is one example).As a test case from relatively recent times one could look at the north western Indian population which presumably absorbed the Greeks who came before,with and after Alexander. Genetic studies cannot possibly distinguish between invasion and migration. Rajesh Kochhar From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Dec 3 05:34:07 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 00 05:34:07 +0000 Subject: Lithuanian River Names Message-ID: <161227064899.23782.12907463625063123970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank Dr.Ganesan for bringing to my attention his 1999 postings on the river names.I think "VaishyambhalyA" is adjective for the river SarasvatI and not the earlier proper name.I may be wrong. However the ancient names of the rivers is the complex problem.The book "Vedic People" by Dr.Kochhar offers standard information very well but I had problem with his suggestion that Aryans transferred Afghanistan river names (Haroyu, HarahvatI, GangA and YamunA) to Indian rivers of the north India.Here is my problem.The author Krishna Chaitanya(P.3, book-A New History of Sanskrit Literature-Pub:Manohar, 1977)tell us that Lithuania has river names Tapti, Nemuna,Srobati,and Narbudey. The another author included Gauja in the list. These are the Indian river names Tapti,YamunA, SarasvatI,NarmadA and GangA.Here I assume that the theory of Aryans from East Europe bringing these river names from Lithuania to the land of the ancient Afghanistan is now out of fashion.The theory of Aryans dispersing from Central Asia to West and East is still in vogue.Here is the question. How did Aryans migrating to the West from their home in Central Asia know the Indian river names Tapti and NarmadA unless they knew them as the names of rivers from Afghanistan? Now which rivers in Afghanistan have the names Tapti and NarmadA? Why did Aryans wait to reach Lithuania to transfer these names ignoring many other rivers on their way in the long journey? Is any information available in literature about the origins of the river names Tigris and Euphrates? Or about their earlier names if any? Central Asia often comes into picture in connection with the prehistory of India as the source of both earlier Dravidian and later Aryan migrations to the sub- continent.Dravidians suspiciously sneaked through the Makuran corridor to Sindha while Aryans (some think) came in victory parade sitting on their horses and chariots.Are their ancient Dravidian names of the Central Asian rivers Oxus and Jaxartes? Could we say that dull Dravidians from Central Asia were ignorant of the names of rivers from which they used to drink water? However smart Aryans did have Sanskrit names to Oxus and Jaxartes. Could we say that after their interaction with Aryans inside the sub- continent, Dravidians became smart to recognize the earlier Dravidian river names of India? I believe Dravidians were smarter than Aryans. It is they (not Aryans) who went to Lithuania and named rivers with the names of Indian rivers.If I am wrong, please correct me. Thanks. From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Sun Dec 3 14:59:54 2000 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 00 09:59:54 -0500 Subject: Catechu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227064905.23782.14631122397500806438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mabberley: 'Plant Book' Acacia catechu (catechu, cutch: India) --heartwood for tanning, dyeing, for treating fishing nets and sails, medicinal and as masticatory with betel. True khakhi cloth is dyed and shrunk with it. Purseglove: 'Tropical crops' The manufacture of cutch is an ancient industry in India. It is a greyish resinous substance obtained by boiling chips of heartwood in water and then evaporating the liquid. The paler form is used for chewing... Hobson Jobson says the word is derived from Tamil kAsu (?) --Geeta From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 3 10:19:38 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 00 10:19:38 +0000 Subject: Original language of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227064901.23782.18417512402605893990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To bring this thread back to its subject line - On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:36:36 +0000, Dmitri wrote about the yogasUtras: >The text has peculiar structure with a lot of ellipsis-like gaps >that might be the result of translation from other language while attempting >to make word-by-word translation. That is all. I'm curious about the above observation. Could you cite a specific example of an ellipsis like gap from the text? It may be that the intentionally terse structure of the sUtras could cause a new reader to think so. I find the flow of ideas from one sUtra line to another in the yogasUtra to be remarkably lucid and more self- explanatory than in any other sUtra text. Vidyasankar From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 3 17:00:16 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 00 11:00:16 -0600 Subject: SV: genetic markers revisited Message-ID: <161227064912.23782.5077774518684189671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Lars Martin Fosse >> >.....So even if an Aryan >warrior brought his wife (or wives) to India, he may as well have >shared out his sperm generously among the local women. In a previous message you had said that Aryan was merely a language. How in the world can you identify a Aryan speaking warrior by his sperm ? This kind of idea belongs to the 18th and 19th century and most people that such ideas died in 1945 at the end of WWII.Unfortunately it seems to be alive and thriving in Europe. Subrahmanya _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Sun Dec 3 19:10:54 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 00 11:10:54 -0800 Subject: Catechu Message-ID: <161227064919.23782.8843842961471297638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Dear Sanskritists, > >.. > > (1) KiNwa is explained as "drug or seed used to produce > fermentation in the manufacture of spirits from sugar, > bassia &c." Colebroke quotes from "SaGkara: "The faculty > of thought results from a modification of the aggregate > elements in like manner as sugar with a ferement > and other ingredients becomes an inebrieating liquor; > and as betel, areca, lime and extract of catechu > chewed together have an exhilarating property > not found in those substances severally." " > >... > > Also, I need help with the "SaGkara's quotation: Where from? > What is "catechu"? Is it different from areca? > What is the Sanskrit word that Sankara uses for > "extract of catechu"? If possible, please give me the tamil > equivalent too. DEDR entry# 1432: Ta. kAcu, kAcu-kkaTTi, kAyccu-kkaTTi a compound of catcechu formed with the juice of young coconuts, areca-nuts, and other spices. Ma. kAccu, kAttu, kARRu dried areca juice, catechu. Ka. kAcu catechu or cutch, the inspissated juice of the Acacia catechu Tu. kAcu, kAci catechu Acaia Catechu; the sediment of boiled areca-nut. Te. kAcu catechu [Cf. Skt. (Wilson)] kAzukAra- the areca tree. > > Thanks a bunch. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > PS: I am working on a commentary of a 11th century tamil > lokAyata text. It is written by Kavichakravarti JayamkoNTAr > who was the court poet of Kulottunga Chozhan I. Last > quarter of the 11th century. The patron of this > rare text was AdinAthan of the Kaaraa.nai vizupparaiya_n > lineage. The text is rare and very beautiful. > This is one of the original lokayata texts in all of India. > Oftentimes, what we have is portrayal of lokaayatikas as told > by their traditional enemies. > > The buddhist epic, MaNimEkalai and this kArANai vizupparaiya_n > maTal compare the production of life/intelligence ("uNarvu") from the > proper mixing of 4 basic elements (earth, water, fire, air) > with the inebriation produced in fermentaion process. > and they do not accept aakaasham as a basic element. > Both maNimEkalai and K. maTal compare these four elements with > 1) mountain ebony ('tAtaki/Atti') 2) jaggery ('vellam') > 3) days-old cooked rice ('Odanam') and 4) water (rice-water 'kazinIr' > used in cleaning). > > The Cologne OnLine Tamil lexicon returns 15 entries with catechu that seem to refer to other tree names that occur in cagkam texts such as mArOTam: ciRumArOTam red catechu mArOTam red catechu mOrOTam otl mOrOTam mOrOTam red catechu OTam otl OTam OTam 02 red catechu kAcu otl kAcu kAcu 02 catechu compound kOTam otl kOTam kOTam 01 red catechu tuvarkkaTTi otl tuvarkkaTTi tuvarkkaTTi a compound of catechu and other spices amirAkitam otl amirAkitam amirAkitam red catechu (TLS) cegkarugkAli otl cegkarugkAli cegkarugkAli red catechu, m. tr., acaria catechu-sundra kamuku otl kamuku kamuku areca-plam, areca catechu kUntaRkamuku otl kUntaRkamuku kUntaRkamuku 1. areca palm, m. tr., areca catechu ; 2. ralipot palm kAcukkaTTi otl kAcukkaTTi kAcukkaTTi 02 downy foliaged cauch, m. tr., acacia catechu typica mUcAmparam otl mUcAmparam mUcAmparam 1. scarlet flowered aloe; 2. resinous inspissated juice of aloe; 3. a compound of catechu kAcukkaTTi otl kAcukkaTTi kAcukkaTTi 01 a compound of catechu formed with the juice of young cocounts, areca-nuts, and other spices pUkam otl pUkam pUkam 01 1. areca-palm, m. tr., areca catechu ; 2. a caste assembly; 3. collection; multitude; heap; 4. jaggery-palm; 5. nature __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 3 17:39:35 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 00 11:39:35 -0600 Subject: SV: SV: genetic markers revisited Message-ID: <161227064916.23782.5663844307288825596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Lars Martin Fosse >....Until you show a better >grasp of the basics of the debate, I shall consider you a flunked >student lacking the basic intellectual resources to understand the issue, I >and >won't waste my time on you. > >Lars Martin Fosse > > Honestly, I dont give a damn what you consider about me or anyone else. I am interested in knowing and understanding Indias history and will pursue that. Also, I have been on this list for many years now and know enough of Indology - so as not to take the words of europeanist academics at face value. I must add that the list members are also intelligent enough to know logthe difference between invasions and migrations to see through your doublespeak. Subrahmanya _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 3 14:41:24 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 00 14:41:24 +0000 Subject: Catechu Message-ID: <161227064903.23782.1128386535084218400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sanskritists, E.B. Cowell, The Sarva-Dar"sana-Sa.mgraha, MLBD, 1996, gives in Ch. I The Chaarvaaka System. "In this school the four elements, earth & c., are the original principles; from these alone, when transformed into the body, intelligence is produced, just as the inebriating power is developed from the mixing of certain ingredients; (1) and when these are destroyed, intelligence at once perishes also. " (1) KiNwa is explained as "drug or seed used to produce fermentation in the manufacture of spirits from sugar, bassia &c." Colebroke quotes from "SaGkara: "The faculty of thought results from a modification of the aggregate elements in like manner as sugar with a ferement and other ingredients becomes an inebrieating liquor; and as betel, areca, lime and extract of catechu chewed together have an exhilarating property not found in those substances severally." " I was told "bassia" refered here is "iluppai" (in tamil) tree products here. There is an old proverb, "aalai illaa uuril, iluppaip puu carkkarai". But, what is kiNva? Is it "mountain ebony"?, "Mountain ebony" is called "taataki/aatti" (tam.) and, is the royal tree of Cholas. Also, I need help with the "SaGkara's quotation: Where from? What is "catechu"? Is it different from areca? What is the Sanskrit word that Sankara uses for "extract of catechu"? If possible, please give me the tamil equivalent too. Thanks a bunch. Regards, N. Ganesan PS: I am working on a commentary of a 11th century tamil lokAyata text. It is written by Kavichakravarti JayamkoNTAr who was the court poet of Kulottunga Chozhan I. Last quarter of the 11th century. The patron of this rare text was AdinAthan of the Kaaraa.nai vizupparaiya_n lineage. The text is rare and very beautiful. This is one of the original lokayata texts in all of India. Oftentimes, what we have is portrayal of lokaayatikas as told by their traditional enemies. The buddhist epic, MaNimEkalai and this kArANai vizupparaiya_n maTal compare the production of life/intelligence ("uNarvu") from the proper mixing of 4 basic elements (earth, water, fire, air) with the inebriation produced in fermentaion process. and they do not accept aakaasham as a basic element. Both maNimEkalai and K. maTal compare these four elements with 1) mountain ebony ('tAtaki/Atti') 2) jaggery ('vellam') 3) days-old cooked rice ('Odanam') and 4) water (rice-water 'kazinIr' used in cleaning). The relevant lines from kArANai vizupparaiya_n maTal: "tAtakiyi_n mellarumpum taNkarumpi_n kaTTiyumiT Ota_namnIr e_n_num orunA_nki_n uRpavikkum kAtal matuvi_n kaLippu veLippaTTARpOl mEti_niyum appum viLaika_nalum kARRume_num pUtamoru nA_nki_n puNarcci vicETattAl cAta_nmAy uLLa carIratti lEyuNarvu pOtum e_navaRiyIr;" [...] _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From rao.3 at OSU.EDU Sun Dec 3 15:15:54 2000 From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 00 15:15:54 +0000 Subject: genetic markers revisited Message-ID: <161227064907.23782.15781540709491526679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:05:25 +0530, Rajesh Kochhar wrote: > Genetic studies cannot possibly distinguish between invasion > and migration. There is a more basic question, beyoond others mentioned so far, which I don't know has been addressed or not: People tend to marry those not too far from where they are. [Caste endogamy plus fast travel has made this inaccurate for modern India, but I doubt that it was so even 100 years ago.] So I would expect to see clines for frequency of genetic markers running from NW to S/E, irrespective of invasions or migrations. Any argument for migrations needs to stand out beyond this. Presumably we would need to use spatial stat methods for this. Have such analyses been done? Regards Nath From lmfosse at ELENDER.HU Sun Dec 3 16:37:36 2000 From: lmfosse at ELENDER.HU (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 00 17:37:36 +0100 Subject: SV: genetic markers revisited Message-ID: <161227064910.23782.875877928038547345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath Rao [SMTP:rao.3 at OSU.EDU] skrev 3. desember 2000 16:16: > On Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:05:25 +0530, Rajesh Kochhar > wrote: > > > Genetic studies cannot possibly distinguish between invasion > > and migration. > > There is a more basic question, beyoond others mentioned so far, > which I don't know has been addressed or not: People tend to > marry those not too far from where they are. [Caste endogamy > plus fast travel has made this inaccurate for modern India, > but I doubt that it was so even 100 years ago.] So I would > expect to see clines for frequency of genetic markers running from > NW to S/E, irrespective of invasions or migrations. Any argument > for migrations needs to stand out beyond this. Presumably we would > need to use spatial stat methods for this. Have such analyses been > done? I know that migration patterns in Europe have been studied, and that certain clines have been found. I am away from my library, and therefore unable to give you much help in terms of bibliographic info, but here is at least one title: Sokal, Oden, and Thomson. 1992. The Origins of Indo-Europeans. Vol. 89, Proc. of the Nat. Acad. of Sc:s, USA. You may also find interesting info in the following one: Robert R. Sokal et al. Genetic Differences Among Language Families in Europe. Am. Journal of Phys. Anthropology. 1989 There are others as well, but I don't have the references. However, you may be able to find relevant info in the bibliography of the papers cited above. I don't think there are may good studies of the Indian situation, as Steve Farmer and Vidyasankar Sundaresan seem to have made clear. Unfortunately, the interpretation of the clines is not so simple, if I remember correctly. Thus, it is fairly easy to show that migrations have taken place, but not so easy to tell in which direction. In fact, some of the interpretational difficulties that affect certain aspects of the linguistic analysis also pertain to the genetic analysis. An aside concerning marriage and the spreading of genes: in archaeic (and not so archaeic) societies, men did not have sex only with their wives. There was also the reward of the warrior: rape and capture of slave girls, not to mention regular concubines and servant girls. So even if an Aryan warrior brought his wife (or wives) to India, he may as well have shared out his sperm generously among the local women. Please remember that the model for a migrating Aryan tribe is more like a migrating Germanic or Celtic tribe: which included women, children, pigs, cows etc. etc. It was a society on the move, not a regular army like the Roman legions or the Greek phalanx, or for that matter the Muslim central asian armies that overran India in the Middle Ages. Read Caesars De bello gallico (first book) for a vivid impression on how such a migration worked. (Germanic and Celtic women often worked as "supporters" during a battle, standing "ring-side" and urging their men on. And well they might, because if the men lost, they ended up as slaves.) All the best, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ELENDER.HU Sun Dec 3 17:12:57 2000 From: lmfosse at ELENDER.HU (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 00 18:12:57 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: genetic markers revisited Message-ID: <161227064914.23782.2888616965259670252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmanya S. [SMTP:subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 3. desember 2000 18:00: ?> In a previous message you had said that Aryan was merely a language. > > How in the world can you identify a Aryan speaking > warrior by his sperm ? > > This kind of idea belongs to the 18th and 19th century and > most people that such ideas died in 1945 at the end of WWII.Unfortunately it > seems to be alive and thriving in Europe. You seem to forget that the Indo-Aryans called themselves Aryans. Also, if Aryans migrated to India, they would necessarily bring their sperm with them. Most men do, whether they call themselves Aryan or not. As you should know by now, in linguistics "Aryan" refers to a certain group of languages. As a racial term, it is long since dead. As an ethnic term (i.e. as self-reference for a group of people speaking an Indo-Aryan language, it was used in India and Iran some 3000 years ago.) All this has been rehearsed on this list several times, and I suggest that you give yourself a refresher course by looking through the archives. Until you show a better grasp of the basics of the debate, I shall consider you a flunked student lacking the basic intellectual resources to understand the issue, I and won't waste my time on you. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From ghezziem at TIN.IT Sun Dec 3 23:04:31 2000 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 00 23:04:31 +0000 Subject: R: Vidyapati Message-ID: <161227064921.23782.10968406012453293072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dearest Ursula, many thanks for Your useful advise. I hope that this book - unlike many others - contains both the original text (for me very important) and the translation. Sincerely Yours, Daniela ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** ---------- >Da: Graefe >A: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Oggetto: Vidyapati >Data: Ven, 1 dic 2000 9:14 > > Dear Daniela, > W.G. Archer (ed.), Love Songs of Vidyapati, transl. Deben Bhattacharya, Unesco > Collection of Rep. Works Indian Series, London 1963 > > Not much, but maybe it helps - greetings Ursula From lmfosse at ELENDER.HU Sun Dec 3 22:56:50 2000 From: lmfosse at ELENDER.HU (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 00 23:56:50 +0100 Subject: genes and languages--Kurds and Georgians] Message-ID: <161227064930.23782.5295098242441143561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those of you are interested in the genes/languages theme, I forward a message on the Indo-European list. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: Geoffrey SUMMERS [SMTP:summers at metu.edu.tr] Sendt: 1. desember 2000 06:42 Til: Indo-European at xkl.com Emne: [Fwd: [ArchTheoMeth] genes and languages--Kurds and Georgians] This came from the Archaeology and Theory list. There have been several responses on that list, including an objection to the position that Georgian and Basque are related. Geoff > Subject: [ArchTheoMeth] genes and languages--Kurds and Georgians > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:37:17 +0900 > From: "Mark Hall" > Reply-To: ArchaeologyTheoryMethod at egroups.com > To: , , > > Since it has come up repeatedly on this list and others, the equating of > genes, pots, peoples and languages, an interesting article that hasn't seen > much press is: > Comas, Calafell, et al. (2000) Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis > shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages, > AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY Vol. 112, 5-16. > In a quick summary, using 360 base pairs from the mtDNA sequence, they > looked at the mtDNA from 45 Georgians and 29 Kurds. Georgians are > Kartvelian speakers while the Kurds are Indo-Iranian speakers. The > genetic analysis points only to minor differences between the Georgians > and Kurds and the rest of the European populations and very different > from the Basque population (which Georgians are often linked to). Their > conclusion is the linking of European mtDNA with the Indo-European > languages is seriously questioned. > Best, Mark Hall -- Geoffrey SUMMERS Dept. of Political Science & Public Administration, Middle East Technical University, Ankara TR-06531, TURKEY. Office Tel: (90) 312 210 2045 Home Tel/Fax: (90) 312 210 1485 The Kerkenes Project Tel: (90) 312 210 6216 http://www.metu.edu.tr/home/wwwkerk/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 4 03:38:03 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 03:38:03 +0000 Subject: Catechu Message-ID: <161227064923.23782.12264452310130706885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks a lot for the useful answers. It looks catechu is produced from some type of "vEl" tree. Catechu is used by pAnwallahs even now. Heartwood (Acacia catechu) - what is the corresponding "vEl"-tree? Before the industrial glue bottles came to be used in schools, resin-gum from "karu-vEl" (acacia arabica) was used in India. But the resin in the tAmbUlam mix is from a different acacia, which one? Hopefully a Sanskritist will explain Sankara's quote of this lokaayatavaada metaphor. There what is catechu called? Is it khadira? Regards, N. Ganesan Cologne Tamil Online Lexicon (OTL) 1) kuTTivEl - a kind of acacia (TLS) 2) uTaivEl - peapodded black babul, acacia eburnea 3) karuvEl - black babul, s. tr., acacia arabica 4) kUntalvEl - elephant thorn, s. tr., acacia tomentosa 5) koviL - white cutch, a tree, acacia suma 6) pEykkarugkAli - tamarind-like cutch, m. tr., acacia ferruginea 7) cImaivElampaTTai - 1. black wattle, 1. tr., acacia melanoxylon ; 2. common wattle, - s. tr., acacia decurrens ; 3. mimosa wattle, s. sh., acacia dealbata 8) cikaikkAy - soap pod wattle, l. cl., acacia concinna 9) pIvEl - pulpy-podded black babul, l. sh., acacia farnesiana 10) veLvEl - 1. tamarind-like cutch; 2. panicled babool, m. tr., acacia leucophloea 11) veLLiNTu - shining-leaved soap pod, l. cl., acacia intsia 12) vEl - 1. babul, gens acacia ; 2. panicled babul; 3. spiny bamboo 13) uTai - 1. umbrella-thorn babul, s. tr., acacia planifrons ; 2. buffalo-thorn cutch, s. tr., acacia latronum ; 3. pea-podded black babul, s. tr., acacia eburnca 14) kAcukkaTTi - 02 downy foliaged cauch, m. tr., acacia catechu typica 15) kATTiNTu - copious narrow-leaved soap pod, l. cl., acacia pennata 16) pEyccIyakkAy - copious narrow-leaved soap-pod, 1. cl., acacia peunata 17) kuTaivEl - 1. umbrella thorn babul; 2. buffalo thorn cutch, s. tr. acacia latrounm 18) pIkkaruvEl - 1. pea-podded black babul; 2. pulpy-podded black babul, l. sh., acacia farnesiana 19) kaNTAjnci - 1. entire-leaved staff-tree gymnosporia emarginata; 2. buffalo thorn cutch, s. tr., acacia latronum ; 20) iNTu 1. eightpinnate soap-pod, l. cl., acacia intsiacaesia ; 2. sensitive plant, mimosa ; 3. species of sensitive-tree, l. sh., mimosa rubicaulis ; 4. tigerstopper 21) cElai 01 1. cloth; 2. saree; 3. half a piece of cloth, measuring 36 to 40 cubits; 4. parchment bark cutch, m. cl., acacia suma 22) kAyattiri - 1. ga1yatri, the sacred mantra of 24 syllables, in the gayatri metre, recited by brahamnas in their daily worship; 2. the goddess gayatri1 one of the wives of brahma1; 3. sarasvati1; 4. metre of 24 syllabless in 4 lines; 5. glabrous foliaged cutch, m. tr., acacia sundra _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Mon Dec 4 03:48:29 2000 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 03:48:29 +0000 Subject: Original language of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227064925.23782.3893138074465582324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From my, rather naive point of view, traditional interpretation involves a lot of grammatical violence (ignoring cases, subordination, etc.) Here is an example of ellipsis: I.34 pracchardanavidhaara.naabhyaa.m vaa praa.nasya Here, pracchardanavidhaara.na is in neut.,dual, inst. or dat. or abl. vaa means that it is an alternative to something and praa.na is in masc.sing. gen. There is no noun in nom. That is the first ellipsis. There is a second one. Assuming that praa.na specifies pracchardanavidhaara.na creates a problem: praa.na in that case should have been before vaa. Since vaa is refering to pracchardanavidhaara.na, then praa.na in gen. is related to some other missing noun in nom. So, there are at least three ellipsises in this suutra: two nouns (or noun phrases) and a verb. Traditional rendering of it as Optionally, by expulsion and retention of breath (Raama Prasaada) resorts to grammatical stretch (if not violence) by making vaa separating a noun and describing it noun, not to mention that vaa does not have a meaning "optionally", but means an alternative. The implied meaning might be expressed with praa.nasya pracchardanavidhaara.naabhyaa.m vaa more directly. Consequent suutras I.35-I.39 make the situation much worse by listing alternatives with vaa in different cases and sometimes as nouns, sometimes as adjectives, which creates even more gaps. I.37 is the least clear one. Best regards, Dmitri. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 4 06:04:46 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 06:04:46 +0000 Subject: Catechu Message-ID: <161227064927.23782.659763466882829210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hopefully a Sanskritist will explain Sankara's quote of this >lokaayatavaada metaphor. There what is catechu called? Is it khadira? Does Colebrooke give the name of the Sankaran text from which the quotation was taken? Since Sankara's comments about other schools are spread over his various commentaries, this piece of information will help trace the original quotation. Regards, Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 4 16:30:31 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 08:30:31 -0800 Subject: Tamil Muslims Message-ID: <161227064947.23782.7717134395292918759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Closer to Taminadu, Tamil Muslims in Srilanka speak the >same language as the rest of the Tamils, but they are classified >as a separate ethnic group - on their own request. There are many Muslims who speak a Tamil dialect in Sri Lanka who call themselves Tamils. Several famous Tamil writers and artists come from the Muslim community in that country. L. M. Fosse writes: "It would also include typical non-Aryans like Finns and Basques." By implication, Germans and British etc. are Aryans. This even though Europeans have heard the term "Aryans" a mere 200 years ago. When Europeans are called Aryans, the muslims in Sri Lanka are Tamils. Of course, They are Tamil Muslims. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Dec 4 10:00:11 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 10:00:11 +0000 Subject: Suspending Indology service. In-Reply-To: <002601c05d79$f4057c00$257a173f@8lijy> Message-ID: <161227064935.23782.13723747975812518904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To switch off INDOLOGY during the holiday period, go to the listserv website, either via http://www.indology.org.uk (INDOLOGY discussion archive/Join or leave the list (or change settings)) or directly at Liverpool http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/indology.html (Join or leave the list (or change settings)) Once there, you can login and set your subscription to "nomail". You will continue to be a member, but you will not receive any messages until you change the setting again. To unsubscribe completely from the list, send an email saying unsub indology to the address indology-unsubscribe-request at liverpool.ac.uk -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 4 18:01:49 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 10:01:49 -0800 Subject: Tamil Muslims Message-ID: <161227064958.23782.8340718177391882216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the current trends of how Tamil ethnics attempt to classify themselves as different. Political de-/em- powering and the general poverty of Tamils are some reasons. I agree with Dr. Fosse that " "Aryans" in an Indological/Indo-European context refers to the peoples that called themselves Aryans, that is the early Indo-Iranians. " But in Europe there is a very long tradition of calling themselves Aryans, see M. Olender's Languages of the Paradise. "Tamil Muslims" in an Indological context can refer to Tamil Muslims of Sri Lanka because their mother tongue is Tamil. ------------------ Muslims in general in Sri lanka do not want to be called Tamils or as Tamil Muslims. There might be individual exceptions but politically and collectively they want to be identified as Sri lankan Muslims or as Sri lankan Moors even if most of them are still using Tamil as a medium of communication (many are in the process of acquiring Sinhalese as their medium of communication now) Try Communalisation of Muslims in Sri Lanka An Historical Perspective By F. Zackariya and N. Shanmugaratnam I have posted this before so excuse my repetition on this subject. There are many Tamil writers of Muslim faith in Sri Lanka, but the communal identity is not Tamil. So one can speak in Tamil and consider one not an ethnic Tamil. There are many such groups within the Tamil speaking community around the world. Raveen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH Mon Dec 4 09:06:50 2000 From: anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH (NAYAK Anand) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 10:06:50 +0100 Subject: Studies on present-day Hindus Message-ID: <161227064933.23782.11857171787807210657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I need your help to elucidate a question. The indology so far has concentrated on " Hinduism " " Hindu texts " " Casts " " sects " and other Hindu institutions. But Hindus themselves have not been often objet of its study. It seems that indology is interested more in things than in persons. Are there studies of Hindus comparable to subjects in Christianity like " Roman Catholics " " Lutherans " " Orthodox " Christians ?. I mean studying Hindus of India, their religious identity, categories of religious affiliation, varieties of normal (not sectarian) hindu religious groups... I would be thankful for comments. Greetings. Anand Nayak Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Avenue de l'Europe 20 CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 4 11:41:02 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 11:41:02 +0000 Subject: Original language of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227064942.23782.7233307725556108959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >There is no noun in nom. That is the first ellipsis. >There is a second one. Assuming that praa.na specifies >pracchardanavidhaara.na creates a problem: pracchardana = expulsion, vidhaara.na = retention. These are clearly related to praa.na. What else could one suppose to be expelled and retained here? Recall that breath control is a significant part of any Yoga technique. >praa.na in that case should have been before vaa. ....... >The implied meaning might be expressed with >praa.nasya pracchardanavidhaara.naabhyaa.m vaa The change in word order does not change the meaning. May I suggest the use of a small monograph by J. F. Staal, titled _Word Order in Sanskrit and Unviversal Grammar_, Dordrecht, D. Reidel, 1967? >Consequent suutras I.35-I.39 make the situation much worse by >listing alternatives with vaa in different cases and sometimes as >nouns, sometimes as adjectives, which creates even more gaps. >I.37 is the least clear one. For YS I. 34-39, the nominative noun is supplied by sUtra I. 33. It is citta-prasaadanam (making the mind clear). In this set of sUtras, the text lists various alternative means to achieve various degrees of mental clarity. That is why there are all these 'vaa-s' sprinkled about here. As introduced by sUtra I. 32, citta-prasaadanam counters citta-vik.sepa (the dispersion of the mind), i.e. the obstacles (antarAya) to mental clarity, as described in I. 30-31. Various means of achieving this clarity are described in sUtras I. 33-39. There is a very clear logical flow of thought, and there is no violence done to grammar in the commentaries here. If you consider that mental clarity can be described either in terms of the process of clearing the mind or as a state of thinking with a clear mind, then the use of ablative and nominative cases makes perfect sense. Note that in I. 31, zvAsa-prazvAsa, i.e. shortness of breath, is listed as one outcome of citta-vik.sepa. Taking deep breaths (pracchardana and vidhaara.na) is the way of calming the mind when this happens. So, "optionally" seems like a good enough translation for vaa in I. 34. The existence of an alternative implies that depending on what obstacle one faces, one can opt for one of the many methods described in the text. Becoming free of all mental attachments is described as another way of attaining mental clarity (I. 37). It is easy to say this, but a very difficult thing to do. Taking a deep breath is easier! sUtra-s were purposely written in a technique that required the use of a minimum number of words. That is what makes it seem like there may be an ellipsis here and there. Hope this has clarified the problem somewhat. Best regards, Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Mon Dec 4 11:19:24 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 12:19:24 +0100 Subject: genes and languages--Kurds and Georgians] Message-ID: <161227064940.23782.7107574232535702398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can "a quick summary, using 360 base pairs from the mtDNA sequence" from "45 Georgians and 29 Kurds" have any scientific value? Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol ---------- > From: Lars Martin Fosse > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: genes and languages--Kurds and Georgians] > Date: 3. desember 2000 23:56 > > For those of you are interested in the genes/languages theme, I forward a message on the Indo-European list. > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > Email: lmfosse at online.no > > > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: Geoffrey SUMMERS [SMTP:summers at metu.edu.tr] > Sendt: 1. desember 2000 06:42 > Til: Indo-European at xkl.com > Emne: [Fwd: [ArchTheoMeth] genes and languages--Kurds and Georgians] > > This came from the Archaeology and Theory list. There have been several > responses on that list, including an objection to the position that > Georgian and Basque are related. > > Geoff > > > Subject: [ArchTheoMeth] genes and languages--Kurds and Georgians > > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:37:17 +0900 > > From: "Mark Hall" > > Reply-To: ArchaeologyTheoryMethod at egroups.com > > To: , , > > > > > Since it has come up repeatedly on this list and others, the equating of > > genes, pots, peoples and languages, an interesting article that hasn't seen > > much press is: > > > Comas, Calafell, et al. (2000) Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis > > shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages, > > AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY Vol. 112, 5-16. > > > In a quick summary, using 360 base pairs from the mtDNA sequence, they > > looked at the mtDNA from 45 Georgians and 29 Kurds. Georgians are > > Kartvelian speakers while the Kurds are Indo-Iranian speakers. The > > genetic analysis points only to minor differences between the Georgians > > and Kurds and the rest of the European populations and very different > > from the Basque population (which Georgians are often linked to). Their > > conclusion is the linking of European mtDNA with the Indo-European > > languages is seriously questioned. > > > Best, Mark Hall > > -- > Geoffrey SUMMERS > Dept. of Political Science & Public Administration, > Middle East Technical University, > Ankara TR-06531, TURKEY. > > Office Tel: (90) 312 210 2045 > Home Tel/Fax: (90) 312 210 1485 > The Kerkenes Project Tel: (90) 312 210 6216 > http://www.metu.edu.tr/home/wwwkerk/ From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Mon Dec 4 11:51:14 2000 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 12:51:14 +0100 Subject: Original language of Yoga Suutra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227064937.23782.8758279078576284953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Dmitri wrote: > Here is an example of ellipsis: > > I.34 pracchardanavidhaara.naabhyaa.m vaa praa.nasya > > So, there are at least three ellipsises in this suutra: two nouns > (or noun phrases) and a verb. > > Traditional rendering of it as > > Optionally, by expulsion and retention of breath (Raama Prasaada) > > resorts to grammatical stretch (if not violence) by making vaa separating > a noun and describing it noun, not to mention that vaa > does not have a meaning "optionally", but means an alternative. vaa, indeed, can have the meaning "optionally" in grammar, i.e. in Paa.nini's A.s.taadhyaayii and the subsequent works. See, e.g., Louis Renou: Terminologie grammaticale du sanskrit, 2nd ed., Paris 1957, p. 271, s. v. "vaa"; K. V. Abhyankar: Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar, 2nd ed., Baroda 1977, p. 344, s.v. "vaa". Louis Renou: "Sur le genre du suutra dans la litt?rature sanskrite." In: Journal Asiatique 251 (1963), p. 186. Note, that I do not claim that "vaa" here, in the Yogasutra, means "optionally", I just want to point out that this can be the case in certain contexts elsewhere. Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 4 14:41:01 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 14:41:01 +0000 Subject: Black skin in RV (was: Black as Evil) Message-ID: <161227064944.23782.5991398503116579930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NG>With "kRSNa tvac"(=black skin) in RV 1.130.8 and 6.40.1 NG>and . Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan gives a *new* reading of RV: >Vac refers to speech and not skin. Hence it means bad speech than bad >skin. This simply is not correct. The Rgveda has "black skin" (kRSNa tvac) in the mentioned location. Online Sanskrit Lexicon: tvac Meaning 2 f. skin (of men , serpents &c.) , hide (of goats , cows &c.) RV. &c. (%{kRSNA4}) , the black man "' , i , 130 , 8) ; a cow's hide (used in pressing out the Soma) , i , iii , ix VS. xix , 82; a leather bag RV. v , 33 , 7 ; etc. Regards, N. Ganesan _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Mon Dec 4 15:43:54 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 15:43:54 +0000 Subject: Black skin in RV (was: Black as Evil) Message-ID: <161227064946.23782.15330346920082751696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:41:01 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: >NG>With "kRSNa tvac"(=black skin) in RV 1.130.8 and 6.40.1 >NG>and . > >Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan gives a *new* reading of RV: >>Vac refers to speech and not skin. Hence it means bad speech than bad >>skin. > >This simply is not correct. The Rgveda has "black skin" (kRSNa tvac) >in the mentioned location. > >Online Sanskrit Lexicon: >tvac >Meaning >2 f. skin (of men , serpents &c.) , hide (of goats , cows &c.) >RV. &c. (%{kRSNA4}) , the black man "' , i , 130 , 8) ; a cow's >hide (used in pressing out the Soma) , i , iii , ix VS. xix , 82; >a leather bag RV. v , 33 , 7 ; etc. > >Regards, >N. Ganesan RV has come from oral traditions to written traditions to translations traditions to interpretation tradition. What we know, or rather what we claim to know, is a complex picture with a chain of events from the original rendition to final interpretation. Hence one cannot claim unambiguous and authoritative understanding, especially writing in English From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Mon Dec 4 16:48:57 2000 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 16:48:57 +0000 Subject: Original language of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227064950.23782.8392605721466450482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 11:41:02 -0000, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >pracchardana = expulsion, vidhaara.na = retention. These are >clearly related to praa.na. What else could one suppose to be >expelled and retained here? Recall that breath control is a >significant part of any Yoga technique. > In techniques of praa.nayama retention of praa.na is denoted with kumbhaka, expulsion -- with recaka. And inhalation --puuraka-- would have been mentioned as well, but it is not. >For YS I. 34-39, the nominative noun is supplied by sUtra I. >33. It is citta-prasaadanam (making the mind clear). cittaprasaadana is neuter, vi.sayavatii (I.35) is a feminine adjective, same for jyotismatii (I.36). It seems that there is some other noun missing. >Note that in I. 31, zvAsa-prazvAsa, i.e. shortness of breath, >is listed as one outcome of citta-vik.sepa. Taking deep breaths >(pracchardana and vidhaara.na) is the way of calming the mind >when this happens. When I experience shortness of breath, the advice to take a deep breath is useless. When deep breath (like in pra.nayama) is an option, zvaasa is absent already. Matsyaasana works much better for zvaasa. That is another, empirical, point against interpreting pracchardana and vidhaara.na as expulsion and retention of breath. Best regards, Dmitri. From tawady at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 4 17:20:53 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 17:20:53 +0000 Subject: Tamil Muslims Message-ID: <161227064954.23782.14381646726655757758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:30:31 -0800, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: >>Closer to Taminadu, Tamil Muslims in Srilanka speak the >>same language as the rest of the Tamils, but they are classified >>as a separate ethnic group - on their own request. > >There are many Muslims who speak a Tamil dialect in Sri Lanka who call >themselves Tamils. Several famous Tamil writers and artists come from >the Muslim community in that country. Muslims in general in Sri lanka do not want to be called Tamils or as Tamil Muslims. There might be individual exceptions but politically and collectively they want to be identified as Sri lankan Muslims or as Sri lankan Moors even if most of them are still using Tamil as a medium of communication (many are in the process of acquiring Sinhalese as their medium of communication now) Try Communalisation of Muslims in Sri Lanka An Historical Perspective By F. Zackariya and N. Shanmugaratnam I have posted this before so excuse my repetition on this subject. There are many Tamil writers of Muslim faith in Sri Lanka, but the communal identity is not Tamil. So one can speak in Tamil and consider one not an ethnic Tamil. There are many such groups within the Tamil speaking community around the world. Raveen From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 4 17:32:30 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 17:32:30 +0000 Subject: Tamil Muslims Message-ID: <161227064956.23782.2692270977365581719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Assume that a person of a European background grew up in Tamil Nadu >and spoke Tamil, identifying himself as a Tamil: would he then be regarded >as a Tamil by other Tamils? Undoubtedly. Sangam poems proclaim: "Every dwelling place is our village, and everyone is our kin" (yAtum UrE, yAvarum kELir). On those who study Tamil, they usually put lifesize statues on the Marina beach and honor them with their highest titles - "Ayyar" or "Munivar". The Scots, Caldwell and Pope are called "kALTuvelayyar" and "pOppaiyar" resp. and the Italian Jesuit Beschi became "vIramAmunivar". Basques (Jesuits by religion) like Henriques and Heras and Russians and Finns have helped Tamil immensely. I remember Osborne at Apple computers who grew up in Tiruvannamalai Ramana Ashramam help start the fonts and DTP revolution in Tamil, a first among Indian languages. Non-Tamils (who marry Tamils and) if they happen to study Tamil are affectionately addressed by poets, using Drav. kinship terminology. Regards, N. Ganesan _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From lmfosse at ELENDER.HU Mon Dec 4 16:59:02 2000 From: lmfosse at ELENDER.HU (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 17:59:02 +0100 Subject: SV: Tamil Muslims Message-ID: <161227064952.23782.1400480884214286951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan [SMTP:smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM] skrev 4. desember 2000 17:31: > L. M. Fosse writes: "It would also include typical non-Aryans like Finns and > Basques." By implication, Germans and British etc. are Aryans. This > even though Europeans have heard the term "Aryans" a mere 200 years ago. I realize that I have made a terminological mistake. "Aryans" in an Indological/Indo-European context refers to the peoples that called themselves Aryans, that is the early Indo-Iranians. In the quote above, I should have said: "typical non-Indo-Europeans". Mixing up Aryans and Indo-Europeans is bad slip-of-the-mind, for which I apologize. However, I believe I am not the only person on the list who occasionally makes this error, so I'll excuse myself by blaming those other unfortunate individuals for misleading me... :-)). As for the Germans and the British: they are Germanic peoples, not Aryans. Only Indians speaking Indo-Aryan languages and Iranians are Aryans. The rest of the Indo-Europeans are Slavs, Italic peoples, Greeks, Armenian, Tocharians, Celts etc. It follows that Finns and Basques are neither Aryan nor Indo-European. But I don't know if this has any consequences for the Tamil Muslims. You can be a Tamil of any religion, I should guess, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, and Muslim. The question is which criteria are used. Assume that a person of a European background grew up in Tamil Nadu and spoke Tamil, identifying himself as a Tamil: would he then be regarded as a Tamil by other Tamils? Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Mon Dec 4 19:40:09 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 19:40:09 +0000 Subject: SV: Tamil Muslims Message-ID: <161227064960.23782.1337541400047735166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:59:02 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >.Assume that a person of a >European background grew up in Tamil Nadu and spoke Tamil, identifying >himself as a Tamil: would he then be regarded as a Tamil by other Tamils? > >Lars Martin Fosse. Of course, without doubt. There would be no "racial discrimination" for or against him/her From ghezziem at TIN.IT Mon Dec 4 23:28:26 2000 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 00 23:28:26 +0000 Subject: hindutva Message-ID: <161227064963.23782.8913651130193076113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dearest Professor Nayak, You are - I think - right on the target. It is impossible to study, for example, a Sanskrit text without pondering about the person (with his caste, biography, religion and so on) who has written it. And it is impossible to study an author only by his caste, biography, religion and so on without pondering about his texts. For being a true *indologist* it is necessary an holistic point of view. I am interested in Sanskrit classical poetry, but when I translate Amaruka, or Kalidasa or Mayura or Jagannatha I think always: why this author *makes* poetry in this way? What is his view about the religion, the aesthetic theories, the Liberation from samsara? Bhadram astu. Yours faithfully, Daniela ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 5 05:54:55 2000 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 05:54:55 +0000 Subject: Help needed Message-ID: <161227064967.23782.6112838064944085131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 5 14:24:19 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 06:24:19 -0800 Subject: Sanscrit? Message-ID: <161227064986.23782.7984223553348614138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Andr? Signoret wrote: <<< Most European citizens speak with "Sanskrit" roots and are unaware of that. "Monsieur Jourdain aussi faisait de la prose sans le savoir !". Almost every time you pronounce , say, French or German, or Russian words, you utter sanscritic phonemes. But alas one thing is missing : le "sens critique" (sorry for the pun !). >>> As Dr. Fosse explained, nowadays Europeans are not "Aryans", and that 19th century usage is replaced with Indo-European (In Germany, Indo-German) (in scholarly writing, atleast). Along the same lines, Signoret means Indo-European wherever he puts Sanscrit, is it not? The French generally do not use Indo-German. I understand that tripartite scheme of Sanscrut and European languages is done most in France. Is it the grounding in Classics (Greek/Latin) leading to these claims as Hinduism, Yoga, etc., are IE? Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 5 06:50:58 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 06:50:58 +0000 Subject: Original language of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227064970.23782.7766502774892524645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In techniques of praa.nayama retention of praa.na is denoted with >kumbhaka, expulsion -- with recaka. And inhalation --puuraka-- >would have been mentioned as well, but it is not. Not in the yogasuutra. kumbhaka, recaka and puuraka are not mentioned in the text anywhere. Where praa.naayaama is described, the simple term used is gati-viccheda of zvaasa and prazvaasa. suutra I. 34 refers to something much simpler than praa.naayaama. See below. >cittaprasaadana is neuter, >vi.sayavatii (I.35) is a feminine adjective, same for jyotismatii (I.36). >It seems that there is some other noun missing. vi.sayavatii qualifies the noun prav.rtti, which is feminine, so the explanation is rather simple. vizokaa and jyoti.smatii in I. 36 would follow from the noun sthiti in I. 35, which is also feminine in gender. I don't see any missing noun yet. Even otherwise, there is much that can be said about mixing of linguistic gender. In the sentence, "agnir vai pratyak.sa- devataa", the word devataa is feminine, but agni is masculine. Change of the gender here does not indicate a missing noun. In the yogasuutras, see III. 1-2, where deza-bandhaH (masc) is dhaara.naa (fem) and ekataanataa (fem) is dhyaanam (neut). In IV. 34, kaivalyam (neut) is svaruupa-prati.s.thaa (fem). >When I experience shortness of breath, the advice to take a deep breath >is useless. When deep breath (like in pra.nayama) is an option, >zvaasa is absent already. Matsyaasana works much better for zvaasa. >That is another, empirical, point against interpreting >pracchardana and vidhaara.na as expulsion and retention of breath. If so, then what would "of praa.na" mean, in the sUtra? When one feels short of breath after physical exertion, the first step to regain strength is to stop and take deep breaths. In the same way, when anger, fear or frustration cause shortness of breath, the first thing to do to calm down is to take a few deep breaths. This is not useless advice. Many sports coaches say the same. It also need not be in the controlled fashion of praa.naayaama, which comes after yama, niyama and aasana. Best regards, Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 5 06:51:53 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 06:51:53 +0000 Subject: genes and languages--Kurds and Georgians] Message-ID: <161227064972.23782.10052178437998500949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Can "a quick summary, using 360 base pairs from the mtDNA sequence" from >"45 Georgians and 29 Kurds" have any scientific value? > 1. The quick summary was by a man who referred to the paper on a mailing list. The original paper is 10 pages long, with figures and tables of data. The full reference is - American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 112 (1): 5-16, May 2000. 2. The number of base pairs and the sample sizes studied are determined by previously known genetic relationships among populations. To avoid getting too technical, I can only say that in order to raise questions about the *scientific* value of published scientific research, please read the original papers and acquaint yourselves with the statistical methods that go behind these comparisons. If scientists and engineers should obtain the necessary background before challenging historians and philologists, shouldn't the latter also do the same before dismissing the scientists? Is it completely hopeless to expect that humanities scholars should learn to treat scientific disciplines with a modicum of respect? If not, what distinguishes them from scientists who don't treat the humanities with respect? Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From mszieba at UW.LUBLIN.PL Tue Dec 5 09:32:21 2000 From: mszieba at UW.LUBLIN.PL (Maciej St. Zieba) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 10:32:21 +0100 Subject: SV: Tamil Muslims/ Re: Aryans Message-ID: <161227064974.23782.12982955202420169537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > I realize that I have made a terminological mistake. "Aryans" in an > Indological/Indo-European context refers to the peoples that called > themselves Aryans, that is the early Indo-Iranians. In the quote above, I > should have said: "typical non-Indo-Europeans". Mixing up Aryans and > Indo-Europeans is bad slip-of-the-mind, for which I apologize. However, I > believe I am not the only person on the list who occasionally makes this > error, so I'll excuse myself by blaming those other unfortunate individuals > for misleading me... :-)). > > As for the Germans and the British: they are Germanic peoples, not Aryans. > Only Indians speaking Indo-Aryan languages and Iranians are Aryans. The > rest of the Indo-Europeans are Slavs, Italic peoples, Greeks, Armenian, > Tocharians, Celts etc. As far as I have heard (not being specialist in Indo-European ethymology or in Celtic) the word "Eire"/"Ireland", same as "Iran", comes from the same root as "Arya" - therefore - may be "at least" (some) Celts are also Aryans? I know of two uses of the word Aryan, very frequent 1) Aryan = Indo-European (from this comes the use of "Indo-Aryan" as opposed to "Indo-non-Aryan" i.e. to Dravidian, Munda, and whatever else) 2) Aryan = Indo-Iranian I don't think the first use is erroneous - it's only a question of convention. Best regards Maciej St. Zieba ====================================================================== Lasciate ogni speranza voi qu'entrate ... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ dr Maciej St. Zieba Vice-Director Lublin Voivod's Cabinet European Integration, International Relations and Regional Policy ul. Spokojna 4 tel. (081) 532 07 32; 74 24 430 20-914 LUBLIN, Poland fax: (081) 74 24 316 e-mail: mszieba at uw.lublin.pl http://www.uw.lublin.pl/zagr.htm ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ polski - English - fran?ais - Esperanto - Nederlands - Deutsch - norsk pycckuu - tlhIngan Hol - Hanyu - saMskRtA bhASA ====================================================================== From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Tue Dec 5 05:36:40 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 11:06:40 +0530 Subject: Tamil Muslims In-Reply-To: <20001204163031.8585.qmail@web311.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227064965.23782.17872549058291886616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > There are many Muslims who speak a Tamil dialect in Sri Lanka who call > themselves Tamils. Several famous Tamil writers and artists come from > the Muslim community in that country. The Tamil Muslims are overwhelmingly converts from Shaivism. Virtually all have preserved their Tamil mother tongue. An attempt has been going on for some period, attempting to change this identity from `Tamil Muslim' to `Moro' or `Moor'. A certain amount of Mughalisation and Urdufication has hence taken place. This has had limited impact, with only one in five Tamil Muslims now speaking Urdu. The anthropological differences render most claims to Mughal descent as futile. This has been the main reason for the preservation of Tamil amongst Tamil Muslims. Hence, most self-identified `Moros' will still accept their Tamil ancestry, especially on the female side. There are few who claim `Turuska' lineage. The Tamil Muslims are Tamils. Samar From lmfosse at ELENDER.HU Tue Dec 5 10:50:42 2000 From: lmfosse at ELENDER.HU (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 11:50:42 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Tamil Muslims/ Re: Aryans Message-ID: <161227064977.23782.10172320551428707900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Maciej St. Zieba [SMTP:mszieba at UW.LUBLIN.PL] skrev 5. desember 2000 10:32: > As far as I have heard (not being specialist in Indo-European ethymology > or in Celtic) the word "Eire"/"Ireland", same as "Iran", comes from the > same root as "Arya" - therefore - may be "at least" (some) Celts are > also Aryans? Probably not. I once asked a Norwegian Indo-Europeanist cum Celticist about this, and he said the connection made between Eire and Aryan was spurious. But there has been such a theory. > > I know of two uses of the word Aryan, very frequent > 1) Aryan = Indo-European (from this comes the use of "Indo-Aryan" as > opposed to "Indo-non-Aryan" i.e. to Dravidian, Munda, and whatever > else) > > 2) Aryan = Indo-Iranian > > I don't think the first use is erroneous - it's only a question of > convention. In a scholarly context, the first use is erronous. (Aryans are a subgroup of the Indo-Europeans). It goes back to a time when being "Aryan" was supposed to be very nice. The Germans for a period loved being Aryan, and the term was politicized with the consequences we know. Today, the non-technical use of "Aryan" should be avoided, since it is so closely connected to European fascism. Only the Indo-Iranians were Aryans in the technical sense. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Dec 5 16:53:02 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 11:53:02 -0500 Subject: Zoroastrianism and Buddhism Message-ID: <161227064995.23782.7302660328093938930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A patron is interested in whether and how Zoroastrianism and Buddhism influenced each other, and why Buddhism did not spread much into Iran south of Merv. I have not been able to find anything explicitly on this and just supplied him with some of the histories of Zoroastrianism and of religion in Iran, and also suggested he investigate works on Mani, since he was influenced by both and any good work on him would have to discuss his sources and the socioreligious context he worked in. Does anyone have other suggestions? Is there some well known work on this already in existence? Thanks, Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 5 12:39:03 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 12:39:03 +0000 Subject: SV: Tamil Muslims/ Re: Aryans Message-ID: <161227064982.23782.15702195005818850061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Maciej is right about the huge popularity of Aryan claims in Europe. Some scholarly attempts are made sometimes to maintain a little distinction. The problem is succinctly said in the dedication page of Leon Poliakov's book, The Aryan myth. " Man is an incorrigible genealogist, who spends his whole life in the search of a father. (Don Cameron Allen, The legend of Noah, Urbana, Ill., 1949) Aryan(Sanskrit). Name of the Persians, later of the Indo-Germanic peoples, who settled in Iran and in north-west India .... The designation "Aryan" in the sense "not of Jewish descent" is problematic. (Trans. from Universal-Lexikon, Cologne, 1968.) " ------------------- Maciej St. Zieba [SMTP:mszieba at UW.LUBLIN.PL] skrev 5. desember 2000 10:32: > As far as I have heard (not being specialist in Indo-European > ethymology or in Celtic) the word "Eire"/"Ireland", same as "Iran", > comes from the same root as "Arya" - therefore - may be "at least" > (some) Celts are also Aryans? Probably not. I once asked a Norwegian Indo-Europeanist cum Celticist about this, and he said the connection made between Eire and Aryan was spurious. But there has been such a theory. > > I know of two uses of the word Aryan, very frequent > 1) Aryan = Indo-European (from this comes the use of >"Indo-Aryan" as opposed to "Indo-non-Aryan" i.e. to Dravidian, >Munda, and whatever else) > > 2) Aryan = Indo-Iranian > > I don't think the first use is erroneous - it's only a question of > convention. In a scholarly context, the first use is erronous. (Aryans are a subgroup of the Indo-Europeans). It goes back to a time when being "Aryan" was supposed to be very nice. The Germans for a period loved being Aryan, and the term was politicized with the consequences we know. Today, the non-technical use of "Aryan" should be avoided, since it is so closely connected to European fascism. Only the Indo-Iranians were Aryans in the technical sense. Lars Martin Fosse _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Dec 5 18:28:55 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 13:28:55 -0500 Subject: Questions about non-Tamil Jain, Buddhist and Ajivika beliefs Message-ID: <161227065001.23782.12229098206322707365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I would appreciate information from non-Tamil sources on the following questions. 1.What did the Jains (2000-1500 years ago) believe regarding the karmic reward for butchers, hunters, sacrificing priests, prostitutes, and meat-eaters? 2.What did the Buddhists believe (2000-1500 years ago) believe regarding the karmic reward for butchers, hunters, sacrificing priests, prostitutes, and meat-eaters? 3. Were the Ajivikas' beliefs different from the above? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE Tue Dec 5 13:39:14 2000 From: raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE (Raoul Martens) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 14:39:14 +0100 Subject: genetic markers Message-ID: <161227064984.23782.4852629226655416916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Acc. to the map Fig.1 in the recently discussed article on Indian genetics in Current Science Nov. 10, 2000, the mtDNA investigation was limited to Eastern and South- ern India; thus people in Western, North-Western and Central India are not included. To the extent that mtDNA is a relevant marker it seems therefore that this investigation does not contribute to the understanding of the ethnicity of the Indus Valley population. As to whether mtDNA or Y Chromosome markers are the most relevant, two articles on the genetics of European populations back to the Paleolithic recently appeared: Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool American Journal of Human Genetics, 67: 1251-1276, 2000 The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome perspective; Science Vol. 290, 10 November 2000 The findings acc. to these articles are discussed in The New York Times article: 'Pushing the Limits of Prehistory', Nov. 16, 2000 where a spokesman for the authors of the first article (based on mtDNA) says about the Y chromosome method: "Although this agrees with the mitochondrial DNA findings in major outline, suggesting that Europe was populated mostly in the Paleolithic period with additions in the Neolithic, there are some points of difference." However, discussion whether the "points of difference" are material, ought not prevent/delay comprehensive surveys including Western and Northern India. Sincerely Raoul Martens From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Dec 5 15:01:49 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 15:01:49 +0000 Subject: announcement (fwd) Message-ID: <161227064988.23782.2963409908060460429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:21:16 -0000 From: "Quessel, Burkhard" Subject: announcement Tomnorrow's World You are invited to a presentation on the world's earliest Buddhist manuscripts to take place at 11 a.m. on Wednesday 13 December in Meeting Room 1 of the British Library's Conference Centre at 96 Euston Road, London NW1 2DB. The nearest underground stations are Euston and King's Cross/St Pancras, each 5 minutes' walk. The birchbark Buddhist scrolls acquired by the British Library in 1994 and miraculously saved from extinction by a major conservation project have proved to be a milestone in the study of early Buddhist religion and South Asian culture and linguistics. Written in the first century A.D. and hence by far the earliest South Asian manuscripts in the Library's rich collection, they are the subject of a major research project. The Library is collaborating with the University of Washington, Seattle, in the study and publication of the scrolls in a series of some ten volumes. Professor Richard Salomon published in 1999 to universal acclaim an overview volume "Ancient Buddhist Scrolls from Gandhara: the British Library Kharosthi fragments". His monograph on the Rhinoceros Horn Sutra fragment is to appear later this month. The first speaker will be Dr Greg Bearman, a senior research scientist with the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena USA. Dr Bearman is in London for the week to investigate the possibility of revealing text which cannot be read with the naked eye or conventional optical aids by the use of advanced infra-red imaging technology. Dr Bearman will talk of the application of infra-red in fields as diverse as geophysics and medical imaging, and demonstrate with slides the spectacular results he has achieved with the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is hoped that he will be able to report initial findings on his work with the BL manuscripts. The second speaker is Dr Andrew Glass, Research Assistant with the team in Seattle. Dr Glass will give an update on this exciting and fast-moving Project and show with audio-visual aids how computer graphics have assisted the solving of the particular "jigsaw puzzle" problems these manuscripts present to scholars. The assistance of the Sunday Times Magazine in enabling Dr Bearman's visit to take place, of the Director of the JPL in lending us both Dr Bearman and the valuable state-of-the-art equipment he will use, and as ever of the donor who made all this possible, is gratefully acknowledged. Would those planning to attend kindly RSVP to either Michael O'Keefe or Burkhard Quessel of the British Library's Oriental and India Office Collections, by post to the above address, by telephone to 0207 412 7654/7819, or via email to michael.o'keefe at bl.uk From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 5 15:57:41 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 15:57:41 +0000 Subject: Kannada word for Dharma Message-ID: <161227064990.23782.12939965233615182253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Once, Prof. George Hart told me that Kannada in old times used the word, "a.ram" in the place of dharma. Is this so? In early Kannada texts (Jain?) or in inscriptions, is a word like "ara" or "aram" or "aRam" ever occur? Thanks, N. Ganesan _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Dec 5 21:13:37 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 16:13:37 -0500 Subject: Job Ad for Comparative and SA Literature In-Reply-To: <31.d7e3ec5.275e8de7@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227065008.23782.12810089220545032265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Folks, Here I am reproducing the ad for a position at Michigan in Comparative and SA literature. Though the deadline for application was Dec 1st, 2000, we are still open to late coming applications. Here is the text of the ad: Assist Prof of Comp Lit & South Asian Lits & Cultures Approved opening for an Assistant Professor of Comparative Literature and South Asian Literatures and Cultures to begin September 1, 2001. Specialization in postcolonial theory with a focus on the modern literatures and languages of South Asia. Required: Ph.D., ability to teach in both English and languages of specialization. Send letter of application, recommendations, writing sample, and c.v. to Tobin Siebers, Director, Program in Comparative Literature, University of Michigan, 2015 Tisch Hall, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1003. Review of applications will begin December 1, 2000 and continue until the position is filled. All applications will be acknowledged. The University of Michigan is a non-discriminatory-affirmative action employer. Please send the applications to Professor Tobin Siebers, and not to me. Best, Madhav Deshpande From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 5 16:30:20 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 16:30:20 +0000 Subject: Catechu Message-ID: <161227064993.23782.15592492253408303567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Hopefully a Sanskritist will explain Sankara's quote of this >>lokaayatavaada metaphor. There what is catechu called? Is it khadira? S. Vidyasankar wrote: >Does Colebrooke give the name of the Sankaran text from which >the quotation was taken? Since Sankara's comments about other >schools are spread over his various commentaries, this piece of >information will help trace the original quotation. I have only Cowell's SDS (1894, reprinted by MLBD). But unfortunately, he does not tell which Colebrooke book he is quoting from. On p. 266, Colebrooke's Essays, vol. i is mentined, but this may be different book than what he talks in p. 4, I would imagine. Foll. (a) or (b) may have it (my guess). a) Essays on history, literature and religions of ancient India = Miscellaneous essays. / New Delhi / 1977(1837) PK 103 C6 1977 V.1 PK 103 C6 1977 V.2 b) Description of select Indian plants by Henry Thomas Colebrooke Colebrooke, H. T. (Henry Thomas), 1765-1837. Description of select Indian plants London : R. Taylor, 1818. p. 351-361, [6] leaves of plates : If you see Maadhava's SDS, probably Sankara's statement may be there. Since there are many acacia trees, I have also asked Tamil professors in India what type of "vEla maram" is the "kAcu-kaTTi maram" ('acacia catechu typica'). Lokaayata metaphors always included liquor motifs: either fermentation process with mountain ebony (aatti) or acacia catechu. Barks of karu-vEl tree is boiled in moonshine production and some "vElAm-paTTai" gives catechu. The tamil proverb "kaNTatE kATci, koNTatE kOlam" eminently describes lokayatika position: pratyaksha is the only pramaa.nam, and enjoy life while it lasts. Thanks for any help, N. Ganesan " E.B. Cowell, The Sarva-Dar"sana-Sa.mgraha, MLBD, 1996, gives in Ch. I The Chaarvaaka System. "In this school the four elements, earth & c., are the original principles; from these alone, when transformed into the body, intelligence is produced, just as the inebriating power is developed from the mixing of certain ingredients; (1) and when these are destroyed, intelligence at once perishes also. " (1) KiNwa is explained as "drug or seed used to produce fermentation in the manufacture of spirits from sugar, bassia &c." Colebrooke quotes from "SaGkara: "The faculty of thought results from a modification of the aggregate elements in like manner as sugar with a ferement and other ingredients becomes an inebrieating liquor; and as betel, areca, lime and extract of catechu chewed together have an exhilarating property not found in those substances severally." " _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Tue Dec 5 17:41:29 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 17:41:29 +0000 Subject: Tamil Muslims Message-ID: <161227064997.23782.12033400694133546391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:20:53 +0000, Raveen Satkurunathan wrote: > >There are many Tamil writers of Muslim faith in Sri Lanka, but the communal >identity is not Tamil. So one can speak in Tamil and consider one not an >ethnic Tamil. There are many such groups within the Tamil speaking >community around the world. Which other group? From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Tue Dec 5 12:46:06 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 18:16:06 +0530 Subject: aryan Message-ID: <161227064979.23782.8750388115560770374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Terms have the meaning given to them. After the misuse of the term Aryan, there is a strong emphasis on using "correct" expressions, emphasising language rather than race. Aryan is a subset of the broader Indo-European speakers.The Aryans are the Rgvedic and Avestan peoples, because these books use the term, Rv more generally than the Av.The term Indo-European ( probably coined as a counterweight to Indo-Germanic ) is as old as 1813,although it was long before it bacame fashionable. Incidentally the scientific term energy was coined by the person who coined Indo-European:Thomas Young Rajesh Kochhar From jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU Tue Dec 5 18:47:53 2000 From: jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU (J. Daniel White) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 18:47:53 +0000 Subject: Zoroastrianism and Buddhism Message-ID: <161227065004.23782.4890236824977065095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen, Though an old work which does not take into account more recent scholarship--historical, linguistic, text critical, etc.--, Emil Abegg's Der Messiasglaube in Indien und Iran, Berlin: W. de Gruyter, 1928, carefully outlines the confluence of many of the major issues in these two traditions. Dan White >A patron is interested in whether and how Zoroastrianism and Buddhism >influenced each other, and why Buddhism did not spread much into Iran >south of Merv. I have not been able to find anything explicitly on >this and just supplied him with some of the histories of >Zoroastrianism and of religion in Iran, and also suggested he >investigate works on Mani, since he was influenced by both and any >good work on him would have to discuss his sources and the >socioreligious context he worked in. Does anyone have other >suggestions? Is there some well known work on this already in >existence? > >Thanks, > >Allen Thrasher > > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > >Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE >Southern Asia Section LJ-150 >Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 >Library of Congress U.S.A. >tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 >Email: athr at loc.gov > >The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the >Library of Congress. > ================================================================= J. Daniel White, Ph.D. Professor of Indian Studies Department of Religious Studies The University of North Carolina at Charlotte 9201 University City Boulevard Charlotte, NC 28223 USA Telephone: (704) 687-4601 Fax: (704) 687-3002 Email: jdwhite at email.uncc.edu From zydenbos at GMX.LI Tue Dec 5 18:19:58 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 19:19:58 +0100 Subject: Kannada word for Dharma In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227064999.23782.11487055824034585318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 5 Dec 2000, um 15:57 schrieb N. Ganesan: > Once, Prof. George Hart told me that Kannada in old times > used the word, "a.ram" in the place of dharma. > > Is this so? In early Kannada texts (Jain?) or in inscriptions, > is a word like "ara" or "aram" or "aRam" ever occur? Yes indeed, Kittel's dictionary lists a_ra / a_ru with the meaning 'virtue, law, charity' or 'Yama'. Its use however seems to be more frequent as a first member in compounds; as a simple word, Kittel only refers to ancient lexica. I have to admit that I have not come across the word in my reading. Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 5 19:58:39 2000 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 19:58:39 +0000 Subject: heliocentrism--predating Copernicus (Luis Reimann) Message-ID: <161227065006.23782.15105126569528316937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Dec 6 04:37:43 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 00 23:37:43 -0500 Subject: Questions about non-Tamil Jain, Buddhist and Ajivika beliefs Message-ID: <161227065014.23782.6764026955878785423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/5/2000 7:59:38 PM Central Standard Time, malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU writes: > The main difference between Jainism and Buddhism was that Buddhism, while > it did opposed killing of animals, did not oppose eating of meat. I am interested in what the Jain and Buddhist scriptures say regarding the rebirth of butchers, hunters, courtesans, and priests who sacrifice animals. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Dec 6 08:50:21 2000 From: hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 00:50:21 -0800 Subject: The meaning of the kannada word 'ar.a' in old Kannada Message-ID: <161227065020.23782.10083440730741874757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ====== This is in response to the question asked recently in the Indology website: [Question: Once, Prof. George Hart told me that Kannada in old times used the word, "a.ram" in the place of dharma. Is this so? In early Kannada texts (Jain?) or in inscriptions, is a word like "ara" or "aram" or "aRam" ever occur? - Thanks, N. Ganesan] -------RESPONSE--- The Meaning of 'ar.a' in old Kannada: 1. 'r' is the special 'r.' , some times called as 'shakata rEfa', here. Refer Keshiraja's 'shabdamaNi darpaNa 1. 29, vrutti, p 23, D L N Edition, "rEphe puttuva tANamam beTTattaguchcharise, r.kAram puTTugum") 2. Kittel Dictionary gives the meanings of 'ar.a' as 'virtue, charity, alms, law, Dharma or Yama. It quotes 'Chaturaasya Nighantu' 1.82 for its meaning as Dharma; 'Shabdamanjari' of tOTadaarya 117 for 'Java=Yama'; "kabbigara kaipidi 15 for 'Yama' - all in Kannada. 3. Same meanings are also given in the "Kannada Nighantu" of Kannada Saahitya Parishat, Bangalore. 4. The use of the word 'ar.a' as 'Dharma' appears in: 'Adi Puraana', 3.63 by Pampa (c. 941 AD); 'Shaanti Puraana' , 4.121 by Ponna (c. 950 AD); 'Ajita Tirthakara Puraana tilakam', 1.21 vachana, by Ranna ( 993 AD); 'nEminATha puraaNa' 1.58, by nEmichandra (c. 1170 AD); 'kabbigara kAva' 223, by Aandayya, (C. 1235). 5. The word is used in the sense of ' Virtuous work, Dharma kaarya' in: 'shabdaanushasana', 140, vyAkhyana by bhattakaLanka (1604 AD); 'chikadEvaraaj vijaya', 5.106 by thirumalaarya (1704 AD); 6. It is used in the sense of 'Yama Dharma raaja' 'karntaka shabda saara', 3.35 Ed by S G Narasimhaachar & M A Ramanija Ayyangaar (1400 AD); 'gadaa yuddha', 1.62 by Ranna (C 1007 AD); 7. The notion that all charitable activities are virtuous, and in a way is 'Dharma' in action, the meanings of Righteousness ('Dharma') and Charity ('Daana rUpada sahaaya) got intermixed, and 'ar.a' used in both the senses. Considering 'Yama' as the Lord of 'Dharma', the meaning was extended to 'Yama' the emodiment of Dharma also. 8. With the meaning of 'Charity' for 'ar.a', the following were dervied: 'ara.aganji' = 'dharmakkagi koduva ganji' ( Ref. 'Dharmamruta 4.48 by nayasEna (c. 1112)) 'ara.avattige' ('aravantige' and several other forms of it) = Dharmashaala where water and other cool drinks are given free for travelers. (Ref. 'karnAtaka jaimini bharata' 3.9 by lakshmIsha (c.1600), etc.) 'ar.amantame' = dharma satra (Ref Epigraphia karnatika, V III, soraba) 9. In the sense of "Dharma' the following were derived: 'ar.agadal' = dharma samudra (Ref. 'nithi manjari' 8, by R narasimhaacharya (1860) 'ar.aguli' = 'dharma naasha maaduva manushya, dharamadrOhi' (Ref 'Aadi puraaNa, 4.76 by pampa (c. 941); and pampa rAmaayana 9.11, by naagachandra (C. 1100) If you need the exact quotations, and other details on this subject, please write to me. Thanks! -Harihareswara Stockton, California. December 5, 2000 ===== From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Wed Dec 6 00:59:46 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 00:59:46 +0000 Subject: Zoroastrianism and Buddhism Message-ID: <161227065010.23782.15610516407822264732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. Both Zoroastrianism and Buddhism coexisted in pre-islamic Afghanistan. The Farsi term "but" (idol) is sometimes regarded to have been derived from "Buddha". 2. It seems that there may have been some connection between Shakadvipi Brahmins and Buddhism in Gaya region. Incidentally in Gujarat and Rajsthan, the Bhojakas are still affiliated with Jainism. Yashwant >>A patron is interested in whether and how Zoroastrianism and Buddhism >>influenced each other, and why Buddhism did not spread much into Iran >>south of Merv. From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Wed Dec 6 01:59:25 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 01:59:25 +0000 Subject: Questions about non-Tamil Jain, Buddhist and Ajivika beliefs Message-ID: <161227065012.23782.5312847425160184531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The main difference between Jainism and Buddhism was that Buddhism, while it did opposed killing of animals, did not oppose eating of meat. In Jainism extramarital sex will be a violation of the anuvratas of the householders, and any sex will be a violation of the mahavratas of the ascetics. Incidentally the term prostitute may be confusing. In India, the gaNikas were not just prostitutes, they were also public entertainers (dancers, singers etc). Well until the early part of this century a large fraction of the singers and dancers in India were "prostitutes". The earliest recorded songs in India were often sung by "prostitutes". It was not uncommon until 6-7 decades ago to hire such entertainers to perform at marriages, even at the conclusion of some religious ceremonies. Incidentally I have read that early movie makers in Bombay had a hard time persuading postitutes to act in their movies because some of them considered acting degrading. Some of movie stars of Indian cinema in the past have been descendants of prostitutes. In general the gaNikas were treated well in ancient Indian society. Amrapali the courtesan had donated her mango groves to the Buddhist Sangha, and had become a nun. I am not aware of a similar example in Jainism, however one of the Ayagapattas at Mathura was dedicated by a courtesan. It is my guess that Ajivika religion was somewhat loosely defined thus it may be hard to find out the practices of the Ajivika. The practices may have differed from region to region. There is some discussion in Basham's book. Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >1.What did the Jains (2000-1500 years ago) believe regarding the karmic >reward for butchers, hunters, sacrificing priests, prostitutes, and >meat-eaters? > >2.What did the Buddhists believe (2000-1500 years ago) believe regarding the >karmic reward for butchers, hunters, sacrificing priests, prostitutes, and >meat-eaters? > >3. Were the Ajivikas' beliefs different from the above? From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 6 16:00:14 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 08:00:14 -0800 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065031.23782.11985201438150689483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kendra Crossen Burroughs wrote: > Once I was editing a book by Marie-Louise von Franz, the Jungian >analyst, and she was discussing a German fairy tale called Die Schwarze >Frau, The Black Woman. I realized that this did not mean a woman with dark >skin, as the contemporary reader would assume. I think the notion of black >as corresponding to the evil or shadow is so deep-rooted that it is probably >a lost cause to change the language in order to correct the political >situation. (Like anti-Semitism, it is something almost archetypal that isn't >going away any time soon, no matter how thoroughly it is explained.) Jungian expression "archetypes", and applying his analysis approach may not be fit to be called "universal". On the "Aryan" Jung, see Prof. Dan Lusthaus' write: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9901&L=indology&P=R11515 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9901&L=indology&P=R14594 On the opposite, black as God (Krishna, Rama, Narayana) and white as the colour for mourning is used in India for at least five millennia. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Dec 6 10:46:39 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 10:46:39 +0000 Subject: Inappropriate INDOLOGY posting Message-ID: <161227065023.23782.6402821941044457898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sanjay, As I mentioned to you earlier, I have the highest regard for the Shri Venkateshwar Steam Press, and I am delighted to have been able to include a link to your web pages from the INDOLOGY webstite. However, please note that the INDOLOGY discussion list is purely for academic matters, and it is absolutely forbidden to use the list for advertising or commercial promotion. May I ask you to limit your postings to the list to matters relating to actual research in indology. Authors are positively encouraged to send news to INDOLOGY about any recent scholarly publications, but publishers are asked not to use the list for promoting their companies; the proper outlet for that is their own websites, which are linked to INDOLOGY. Many thanks, -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Dec 6 10:52:34 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 10:52:34 +0000 Subject: Web site of IGNCA (fwd) Message-ID: <161227065025.23782.3740103884185695324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 07:13:50 -0000 From: IGNCA IGNCA Subject: Web site of IGNCA Dear Sir / Madam, You are invited to visit the website of Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts, New Delhi (www.ignca.nic.in). This site offers rich multimedia content related to arts comprising of Approx. 250 papers and essays, 13 electronic books, 2600 images, Bibliographies, Archaeological reports, data base on manuscripts catalogues and catalogue of IGNCA publications (books & CD-ROMS) We are committed to enhance access to cultural resources using digital technology and our website is regularly expanded. In order to get regular information about our web site your are invited to register yourself at our website. We are also keen to receive your feedback to make this website more useful and interesting for you. Regards Sanjay Goel Director (Multimedia) goelsan at yahoo.com From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Dec 6 06:08:24 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 11:38:24 +0530 Subject: Lithuanian River Names Message-ID: <161227065016.23782.9878162045341748840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: Narayan R. Joshi Date: Sunday, December 03, 2000 11:09 AM Subject: Lithuanian River Names >.The book "Vedic People" >by Dr.Kochhar offers standard information very well but I had problem with >his suggestion that Aryans transferred Afghanistan river names (Haroyu, >HarahvatI, GangA and YamunA) to Indian rivers of the north India.Here is my >problem. RESPONSE There is one river name in the Indian plains that is clearly a tyransfer: Gomati of the Rv is gomal of Baluchistan and not the Gomati of UP. Rajesh Kochhar From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Wed Dec 6 17:47:22 2000 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Joshi Rasik) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 11:47:22 -0600 Subject: query Message-ID: <161227065033.23782.15445971716059621667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> on tue,28 Noiv 2000 Emilio Ghezzi wrote I am lookimng for a devotional Sanskritr text ( with English translation) similar to Jayadeva"s Gitagovinda:in other words, a text in which the love for God is expressed in a strong erotic language and according to the kavya style. I may refer to the "RAdhA-panca-SatI"(Sanskrit Kavyam) by Rasik Vihari Joshi (l993).In this Kavya intense devotional and strong erotic love is expressed for RAdhA and KRSNa in 511 elegant sanskrit poems :poetic imagery,musical resonance of various metres and figures of speech amidst predominating apraakRta KAma and Bharti Rasa are its forte. It is writtem is classical ornate style.It was given "Sahitya Academy Award" (1996)for the best Sanskrit contribution .Sahitya Academy was to bring out it"s translation in 23 languages, including English.I do not know if the edition with English translation is out.You may contact Secretary,Sahitya Academy, Rabindra Bhawan, Barakhamba Road,New Delhi,India. Perhaps it may be of some help Rasik Vihari Joshi Professor of Sanskrit El Colegio de Mexico,Mexico -----Mensaje original----- De: Emilio Ghezzi [mailto:ghezziem at TIN.IT] Enviado el: Martes, 28 de Noviembre de 2000 03:52 a.m. Para: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Asunto: query Dearest Colleagues, I am looking for a devotional Sanskrit text (with English translation) similar to Jayadeva's Gitagovinda: in other words, a text in which the love for God is expressed in a strong erotic language, and according to kavya-style. Furthermore, I have a great difficulty to find this text: Somaprabhacarya's Srngaravairagyatarangini ("the wave of the rasa of love and of the renouncement"). Someone can help me? Many Thanks, Yours faithfully Daniela Rossella ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 6 14:58:17 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 14:58:17 +0000 Subject: The meaning of the kannada word 'ar.a' in old Kannada Message-ID: <161227065028.23782.843796558008195395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks a bunch for the detailed response. In tamil "a.ram"(=dharma) is used regularly. >'r' is the special 'r.' , some times called as 'shakata rEfa', here. Is this Kannada repha related to Marathi repha? ----------- DED 262 Ta. 'a_ram' moral or religious duty, virtue, dharma, Yama; 'a_rava_n' one who is virtuous, god, Buddha, ascetic, etc. [...] Ka. 'a_ra, a_ru' virtue, charity, alms, law, dharma, Yama. ? Cf. 347 Ta. aa_ru DED 347 Ta. aa_ru (obl. aa_r_ru-) way, road, path .... Hope one day the old kannada inscriptions and texts appear on the web, and in translation. Regards, N. Ganesan Aside: I have only DED, not the DEDR. It is a Munshiram Manoharlar Publishers reprint in 1998. Don't understand why they have reprinted DED, instead of DEDR!! Hopefully Manohar or others like MLBD will (re)print DEDR, and there will be a good market. Once, Prof. Emeneau told me about his current project. Emeneau mentioned that DEDR has to be vastly expanded to include many more entries. 30-40 years ago, he was very conservative (then Dravidology was very young). At his age (90s), he works hard with nobody to help in this project. When Emeneau said he doesn't know tamil, Schiffman joked, 'do you believe this?' _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Wed Dec 6 19:58:36 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 14:58:36 -0500 Subject: Apology to Subrahmania In-Reply-To: <01C05FC4.8A3DAB60.lmfosse@elender.hu> Message-ID: <161227065042.23782.125590269023507691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That was a generous and enlightened statement of apology. I wish we would all be more understanding of one another's perspectives, sensibilities, and emotions. It hurts me to see that all too often Indology becomes an arena in the Roman sense of the term, with gladiators in confrontation instead of scholars in a common quest. Best regards, VVRaman From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 6 23:18:18 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 18:18:18 -0500 Subject: Book "Additions to Bloomfields Vedic Concordance" Message-ID: <161227065047.23782.8496227271806735123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, A few weeks ago I came across a reference on the internet to a book called "Additions to Bloomfields Vedic Concordance" but unfortunately I didn't take any notes at the time and now I can no longer remember where I saw the reference or find it again. I also don't see the book listed on the Library of Congress on-line catalogue. Is anyone familiar with the book and can give me the bibliographic reference and any other information about it (contents, reliability etc.). Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Dec 6 17:53:30 2000 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 18:53:30 +0100 Subject: Black as Evil In-Reply-To: <20001206160014.16949.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065036.23782.18199472107277243826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: >Jungian expression "archetypes", and applying his analysis approach >may not be fit to be called "universal". > (snip) >On the opposite, black as God (Krishna, Rama, Narayana) and white as the >colour > >for mourning is used in India for at least five millennia. > But white as the colour of mourning is not unknown in the West either. A shroud is typically white, so are flowers used at funerals, and coffins may be white (but normally not yellow or green or blue). White may indicate the absence of (colourful) life, and poets thus compare the snow covering a landscape in winter with a shroud. It is true that in the black-white contrast black has negative and white positive meaning (because sin is black and innocence is white), but in other contexts the symbolic value of white is rather ambiguous. A "black woman" of a fairy tale was mentioned in a previous mail, but lots of old houses and castles in England are haunted by a "white woman". White is the typical colour (or rather absence of colour) of a ghost and it is also associated with lack of health and fear. There is no real point in contrasting the black god Vishnu-Krishna with the white of mourning because these two items belong to different semantic levels. Arjuna ("the White one") and Krishna ("the Black one") of the epic are a complementary couple which certainly does not reflect ethical or ethnological reflections on skin colour. As has been observed long ago, this pair is a continuation of the Vedic pair of the gods Indra and Vishnu, well attested already in the Rigveda; and - in contradistinction to Rudra, who was a frightened god (associated with the colour red, by the way) - Vishnu seems from the beginning to have been considered by the Vedic aryans as a positive, helpful god. I fail to see the use of all these postings (flooding our list for weeks now) about "Black as beautiful" or "Black as evil". Are you so sure that black never is asssociated with negative ideas in Tamil literature and that white is just associated with mourning and never with anything positive? I feel that most contributions are rather biased and that they do not do justice to the complexity of the problems involved. With best regards Georg v. Simson From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Wed Dec 6 06:06:46 2000 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard B Mahoney) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 19:06:46 +1300 Subject: Questions about non-Tamil Jain, Buddhist and Ajivika beliefs In-Reply-To: <"from Palaniappa"@AOL.COM> Message-ID: <161227065018.23782.17506630700496827626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the attitudes of early Jains on some of these issues, one would do well to read: Johnson, W. J. _Harmless Souls: Karmic Bondage and Religious Change in Early Jainism with special reference to Umasvati and Kundakunda_ (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1995) This is still available from MB. Another work which is especially valuable is: Shah, N. J., ed., _Jaina Philosophy and Religion [English trans. of Jaina Darshana by Muni Shri Nyayavijayaji_ (Delhi: Bhogilal Lehar Chand Institute of Indology & Mahattara Sadhvi Shree Mrigavatiji Foundation, 1998) This is also still available from MB. Hope this is of some assistance, Richard Mahoney On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:28:55PM -0500, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > Dear list members, > > I would appreciate information from non-Tamil sources on the following > questions. > > 1.What did the Jains (2000-1500 years ago) believe regarding the karmic > reward for butchers, hunters, sacrificing priests, prostitutes, and > meat-eaters? > > 2.What did the Buddhists believe (2000-1500 years ago) believe regarding the > karmic reward for butchers, hunters, sacrificing priests, prostitutes, and > meat-eaters? > > 3. Were the Ajivikas' beliefs different from the above? > > Thanks in advance. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan -- end ====================================================================== Richard Mahoney Telephone: +64-3-351-5831 78 Jeffreys Rd Christchurch NEW ZEALAND mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 6 19:09:33 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 19:09:33 +0000 Subject: Heat and Colors Message-ID: <161227065038.23782.14772429447461383352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. G. v. Simson wrote: >white is just associated with mourning and never with anything positive? I know an instance where white is considered cool. Tamils assign 'hot' or 'cold' to the things they encounter. Anything new and unfamiliar is said to be 'hot': Native doctors or shamans tell ice cream is 'hot'! To predict the future, paper packets of red and white flowers is tossed and one is picked up by a child. If it comes white, it signifies cool, non-problematic result. Red means trouble. Instead of the child making a choice, a mixture of white/red flowers are decorated on a temple deity and the fall to the right/left and white/red folwers is interpreted by the priest. In the context of Heat, white is cool and desirable and, red is hot. Regards, N. Ganesan _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From lmfosse at ELENDER.HU Wed Dec 6 19:37:52 2000 From: lmfosse at ELENDER.HU (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 20:37:52 +0100 Subject: Apology to Subrahmania Message-ID: <161227065040.23782.6000291502887870155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems that I owe Subrahmania an apology, having been rather rude to him about a week ago. The reason for my rudeness was that I felt he was harrassing me by insinuating that I had some kind of Fascist leanings. It has become clear to me that his remarks may have been triggered by my own erronous use of the word "Aryan", for which I apologized a a couple of days ago, and which I warned against precisely because of its Fascist connotations. I may, in other words, have thrown punches at a person who may have acted in good faith. I therefore apologize to Subrahmania for calling him "a flunked student" etc. I will continue to comment on his mailings to the extent that it feels natural to do so. All the best, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Thu Dec 7 04:03:25 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 00 23:03:25 -0500 Subject: white as unblemish In-Reply-To: <001201c06002$176d1600$96000080@director> Message-ID: <161227065052.23782.10981070726872774927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr, Kochhar wrote: 1. I think this is an important statement. Then one might ask, <"What does black represent?" 2. I think what this interpretation (with which I agree) brings out is that we must distinguish between white/colored as in clothing, and while/black in skin color. The connotations seem to be very different. 3. Then again, it is rather doubtful that light-colored people and dark-colored people had the same feelings/interpretations about the different skin colors. 4. From an understanding of this as seen in ancient literature, it might be possible to conclude with some certainty whether there was a cultural/ethnic difference at some time in history between the Northern (Sanskritic) and the Southern (Tamil-speaking) peoples. V. V. Raman December 6, 2000 a From sanjay26 at IP.ETH.NET Thu Dec 7 03:58:29 2000 From: sanjay26 at IP.ETH.NET (S. Deshpande) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 00 09:28:29 +0530 Subject: Inappropriate INDOLOGY posting Message-ID: <161227065055.23782.4029415252675789412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik; Sorry, you have the wrong Sanjay. I also got the message and have never heard of the outfit. Sanjay From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Thu Dec 7 03:59:26 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 00 09:29:26 +0530 Subject: white as unblemish Message-ID: <161227065050.23782.3594177737750803179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> White is not so much colour of mourning as of unblemish.Widows wear white not because they are in mourning.They are asked to wear white so that they remain unblemished.Any stain on white will show immediately. Because of this association, married women are forbidden to wear pure white. Rajesh Kochhar -- From: N. Ganesan >Prof. G. v. Simson wrote: >>white is just associated with mourning and never with anything positive? > >I know an instance where white is considered cool. >Tamils assign 'hot' or 'cold' to the things they encounter. >Anything new and unfamiliar is said to be 'hot': >Native doctors or shamans tell ice cream is 'hot'! > >To predict the future, paper packets of red and white flowers >is tossed and one is picked up by a child. If it comes white, >it signifies cool, non-problematic result. Red means trouble. >Instead of the child making a choice, a mixture of white/red >flowers are decorated on a temple deity and the fall to >the right/left and white/red folwers is interpreted by >the priest. > >In the context of Heat, white is cool and desirable and, red is hot. > >Regards, >N. Ganesan > >___________________________________________________________________________ __________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Dec 6 22:46:27 2000 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 00 09:46:27 +1100 Subject: Questions about non-Tamil Jain, Buddhist and Ajivika beliefs Message-ID: <161227065045.23782.17469761390043735381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In a message dated 12/5/2000 7:59:38 PM Central Standard Time, >malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU writes: > >> The main difference between Jainism and Buddhism was that Buddhism, while >> it did opposed killing of animals, did not oppose eating of meat. > >I am interested in what the Jain and Buddhist scriptures say regarding the >rebirth of butchers, hunters, courtesans, and priests who sacrifice animals. >Thanks in advance. The position in Jainism may not be that straightforward, there is a possibility (suggested by one or two citations in old texts) that meat was an acceptable food in early stages of Jainism. A useful place to start looking into this would be Paul DUNDAS. 1998. The meat at the wedding feasts : Krsna, vegetarianism and a Jain dispute. Toronto : University of Toronto, Centre for South Asian Studies, 1998. 28 p. ; 23 cm. (The 1997 Roop Lal Jain Lecture). From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 7 14:47:37 2000 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 00 09:47:37 -0500 Subject: thanks for passage references Message-ID: <161227065064.23782.9291128535677829358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Indology: I'd just like to thank Valerie and Vidyansankar for their references concerning the beginnings of the idea of "no karma". Also, if anyone has any more references within either early Buddhism or Hinduism, it would be appreciated. So far, I have not found too many early passages which are 100% explicit about the accumulation of no karma being the goal. Thanks, Lynken Ghose Iowa State University _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Thu Dec 7 10:58:30 2000 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 00 11:58:30 +0100 Subject: Sarvatathagatatattvasamgraha Message-ID: <161227065060.23782.7994986935219341138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, a friend of mine has asked me to put the following question: Is anyone aware of any comparative studies between the rituals aspect of the Buddhist Sarvatathagatatattvasamgraha tantra in the Japanese and the Tibetan tradition? We are aware of the studies by Lokesh Chandra, Snellgrove, Snodgrass, Patry Leidy, and Kiyota. Sincerely, Ulrich T. Kragh From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 7 12:06:23 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 00 12:06:23 +0000 Subject: white as unblemish Message-ID: <161227065062.23782.16382569939514597516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >White is not so much colour of mourning as of unblemish.Widows wear white >not because they are in mourning.They are asked to wear white so that they >remain unblemished.Any stain on white will show immediately. Because of >this association, married women are forbidden to wear pure white. >Rajesh Kochhar If so, married men will ask their wives to wear white since any man will want his wife to remain unblemished. However: ancient Indian texts show white to be the color of mourning, and widows are prescribed that color. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0011&L=indology&P=64310 Prof. G. v. Simson wrote: <<< But white as the colour of mourning is not unknown in the West either. A shroud is typically white, so are flowers used at funerals, and coffins may be white (but normally not yellow or green or blue). White may indicate the absence of (colourful) life, and poets thus compare the snow covering a landscape in winter with a shroud. [...] but lots of old houses and castles in England are haunted by a "white woman". White is the typical colour (or rather absence of colour) of a ghost and it is also associated with lack of health and fear. >>> I agree with Prof. Simson that white is the color of ghosts. Siva, red in color (Cf. drav. kem- = red/good) is seen white when he is full of mayaana ashes and as in Europe ash smeared Siva is compared to Mt. Kailash draped in white snow. Sangam poetry (again as in Europe) associates white with lack of health. JayamkoNTaar in the 11th century ridicules Kaapaalikas-Paashupatas for coming into towns to frighten women and children. He tells looking at them wearing white bones, white kapaala, white arka (< tam. erukku) flowers, white pULai flowers and white ash, people will be afraid as though a crematorium starts walking with two legs into the town. Probably, Mahendravarman will have a similar description about white burial grounds in his mattavilAsam. " [...] talaiyOTum, veLLe_npum pUtiyum vIzmayirum tAGkip putuccuTalai pAtam iraNTum paTaittu naTappa_napOl vIti veruva varuvArum [....] pOtittu veLLerukkum pULaiyum veLLe_npum cOtittu vaittaane_n tOza_noru mAvirati." - kArANai vi_lupparaiya_n maTal White is eminently connected with death and mourning in India. Regards, N. Ganesan _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Thu Dec 7 11:47:12 2000 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 00 12:47:12 +0100 Subject: Book "Additions to Bloomfields Vedic Concordance" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065057.23782.14392685833512474729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Harry Spier wrote: > A few weeks ago I came across a reference on the internet to a book called > "Additions to Bloomfields Vedic Concordance" but unfortunately I didn't take > any notes at the time and now I can no longer remember where I saw the > reference or find it again. I also don't see the book listed on the Library > of Congress on-line catalogue. Is anyone familiar with the book and can > give me the bibliographic reference and any other information about it > (contents, reliability etc.). It may be that the following work is meant: Sharma, Aryendra: Beitr?ge zur vedischen Lexikographie : neue W?rter in M. Bloomfields Vedic concordance / von Aryendra Sharma. -- M?nchen : Kitzinger in Komm., 1959/60. -- XXI, 366 p. -- (PHMA : Mitteilungen zur idg., vornehmlich indo-iranischen Wortkunde sowie zur holothetischen Sprachtheorie ; Heft 5/6) Orig. Ph.D. thesis, Univ. of Munich, 1939 Perhaps some libraries list it under the name of the series (note that "PHMA" is an uppercase Greek word = Rhema). Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 7 22:09:32 2000 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 00 17:09:32 -0500 Subject: Questions about non-Tamil Jain, Buddhist and Ajivika beliefs Message-ID: <161227065068.23782.7009629806209505701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indology List: In regards to the postings on vegetarianism and Buddhism/Jainism, from what I remember of the Lankavatara Sutra in Mahayana Buddhism, it advocates against meat eating as a whole. Lynken Ghose Iowa State University >From: Royce Wiles >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: Questions about non-Tamil Jain, Buddhist and Ajivika beliefs >Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:46:27 +1100 > > >In a message dated 12/5/2000 7:59:38 PM Central Standard Time, > >malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU writes: > > > >> The main difference between Jainism and Buddhism was that Buddhism, >while > >> it did opposed killing of animals, did not oppose eating of meat. > > > >I am interested in what the Jain and Buddhist scriptures say regarding >the > >rebirth of butchers, hunters, courtesans, and priests who sacrifice >animals. > >Thanks in advance. > >The position in Jainism may not be that straightforward, there is a >possibility (suggested by one or two citations in old texts) that meat was >an acceptable food in early stages of Jainism. A useful place to start >looking into this would be > >Paul DUNDAS. 1998. The meat at the wedding feasts : Krsna, vegetarianism >and a Jain dispute. Toronto : University of Toronto, Centre for South Asian >Studies, 1998. 28 p. ; 23 cm. (The 1997 Roop Lal Jain Lecture). _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 7 19:39:42 2000 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 00 19:39:42 +0000 Subject: Mahabharata Conference 2001: New dates and registration info Message-ID: <161227065066.23782.16890896085837059574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members: Kindly circulate the following communication among those interested. Thanks, S.Tilak *************** International Conference on the Mahabharata May 18, 19, 20 2001 Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec Canada Dear Participant: Because of circumstances beyond our control, the conference had to be rescheduled. The revised programme is provided below. Please send your abstract and register as early as possible. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation, Shrinivas Tilak, Coordinator. Registration Details Name: Postal Address: Tel: Fax: e-mail: Presenting Paper: Yes No Registration Fees: US$ Can$ For all three days 70 $ 100$ (if paid before Feb 15 2001) After Feb 15, 2001 100$ 140$ Students 50$ 75$ Daily session 35$ 50$ Total amount enclosed Please note: The deadline for registration is Feb 15, 2001. All payments must be made by certified cheque/bank draft/international money order drawn in favour of T.S.Rukmani, Chair in Hindu Studies and they must be postdated no later than Feb 15,2001. Mail registration details to Prof. T.S. Rukmani, 1455 de Maisonneuve Boulevard West, Montreal, Quebec, Canada H3G 1M8 Participants reading papers must provide (1) a diskette with a copy of their paper generated on a programme that is compatible with Word and (2) one hard copy. Participants must make their own arrangements for accommodation in Montreal. Visit http://www.tourism-montreal.org/ for list of hotels. The following two hotels are situated at a walking distance from Concordia University and have agreed to offer competitive rates varying from Canadian $ 125-150 per room (with two beds): Le Nouvel Hotel, 1740 Boulevard Renee Levesque West (corner St Mathieu)(514) 931-8841 (1-800-363-6063); Chateau Versailles, 1808 Sherbrooke Street West (corner St Mathieu)(514) 933 8111 The deadline for booking hotel accommodation is positively March 31, 2001 to qualify for the special rate. Identify yourself as delegate to the Mahabharata Conference, Concordia University while making your reservation. Programme Schedule Day One , May 18, 2001 9:00-10:30 H 110 Hall Building Welcome; Inaugural; Keynote address;Vote of Thanks 10:30 -11:00 Coffee Break 11:00-13:00 Topic 1: Methodological Problems of Teaching the Mahabharata Session One 13:00-14:00 Lunch break 14:00-16:00 Session Two 16:00-16:30 Coffee break 16:30-18:30 Session Three 18:30-20:30 Supper break Day Two, May 19, 2001 Topic 2 : Character Analysis Based on Ethical Issues 9:00-11:00 Session One 11:00-11:30 Coffee break 11:30-13:00 Session Two 13:-14:00 Lunch break 14:00-16:00 Session Three 16:00-16:30 Coffee break 16:30-18:30 Session Four Day Three, May 20, 2001 Topic 3 Challenge and Response in the Context of Philosophical, Social, and Other Issues 9:00-11:00 Session One 11:00-11:30 Coffee break 11:30-13:00 Session Two 13:-14:00 Lunch break 14:00-16:00 Session Three 16:00-16:30 Coffee break 16:30-18:30 (H 110) Valedictory address, Concluding remarks _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From lukas.werth at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE Thu Dec 7 21:59:16 2000 From: lukas.werth at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE (Lukas Werth) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 00 22:59:16 +0100 Subject: white as unblemish In-Reply-To: <01JXEGB8UMNUT4UBCZ@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> Message-ID: <161227065070.23782.2337721682106682029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:03 06.12.00 -0500, you wrote: >Dr, Kochhar wrote: > Being new to this list, I would like to add my view here. White in India, as far as I know, is neither one of the above. First, for all I know widows wear white not so much because they mourn, but because their status is inauspicious. This is why they also should not do up their hair, and wear no jewellery. Widows are kept away from auspicious opportunities: they should, for instance, not come near to a bride. Second, colour symbolisms in India are multiplex, and not reducible to simple principles. Krishna is black, but so is Kali. White is also used in buildings of white marble, where it has different meanings. The same goes for the yasmin flowers which women use to decorate their hair, and for white dresses of men (here "unblemish" may be a point). Lukas Werth From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 8 14:10:44 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 00 06:10:44 -0800 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065077.23782.15427047336078407133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Georg von Simson wrote: >It is true that in the black-white contrast black has negative >and white positive meaning (because sin is black and innocence >is white), but in other contexts the symbolic value of white >is rather ambiguous. Sin's color isn't black always. The bible gives it as white too: "'Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, they shall be like wool . . .'" (Isaiah 1:18, NIV.) The black vs. white duality like light vs. darkness in the bible is usually attributed to the Hebrew contact with Persia. The said duality is vividly portrayed in the Aryan texts of Iran and India. <<< In earlier times, Evil was called Belial(=Worthless). After the dualism of Black vs. White gets into the Judaic religion from Indo-Iranians, "Belial" was replaced and got substituted as "Beliar". This is a pun on "beli 'or" (=without light). (E. Pagels, The origin of Satan, p. 57-58; S. david Sperling, "Belial" in K. van der Toorn, Dictionary of Deities and Demons, E.J.Brill). >>> >There is no real point in contrasting the black god Vishnu-Krishna >with the white of mourning ... Is the God Vishnu known to be black from earliest Sanskrit sources? Given the portrayal of black in the duality theme both in Iran and India, could the black God Vishnu represent acculturation in India? Perhaps black as a God is missing in Persia. >Are you so sure that black never is associated with negative >ideas in Tamil literature and that white is just associated >with mourning and never with anything positive? Tamil literature does not cast black as a non-likeable color at all. And, the duality theme of putting white against black is absent too. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 8 18:21:26 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 00 10:21:26 -0800 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065090.23782.6777382606717498154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> G.v.Simson wrote: > I have no Old Testament at hand here in my office (perhaps I should), but I > wonder whether this should not be interpreted as: your sins shall be white > i.e. they shall washed off, be no sins any more, they shall disappear? <<< I think you are right -- the new JPS bible has: "Be your sins like crimson, they can turn snow-white; Be they red as dyed wool, they can become like fleece" Just before this verse, Isa 1.16 has "Wash yourselves clean; put your evil doings away from My sight" which seems to contextualize v18. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge >>> If Isa 1 is pre-exilic, and this duality of red vs. white isn't persian; and red vs. white is much resembling tamil concepts of red as 'hot' and white as 'cool'. The black vs. white duality in the Revelation etc. is post-exilic, and seems to be Persian inspired. The black vs. white duality, so strikingly told in the aaryan texts, is conspicuously absent in (early) tamil literature. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Fri Dec 8 05:00:40 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 00 10:30:40 +0530 Subject: rivers revisited Message-ID: <161227065072.23782.15588047019696030647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the significance of Sanskrit-sounding Lithuanian river names(Narayan R Joshi)?While addressing the question, the following points need to be kept in mind. 1.Texts like the Rgveda are valuable for what they contain, but useless for what they omit.Salt is not mentioned in Rv ,even though the Salt Range was a part of the territory known to Rv. 2.In the Rgvedic times there were a number of tribes speaking Indic dialects. All of them did not participate in the composition of Rv,They however all merged later to give Sanskrit and Prakrits. The catchment area for Sanskrit/Prakrits is larger than that of the Rv. In other words,all Sanskrit/Prakrit words should not be sought to be traced back to Rv. 3.There are no records of linguistic/literary developments prior to the Rgvedic/ Avestan times.One would be at liberty to propose hypotheses, but these hypotheses cannot be tested. Rajesh Kochhar From wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK Fri Dec 8 13:51:22 2000 From: wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK (Christian K. Wedemeyer) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 00 13:51:22 +0000 Subject: Musical trees and rivers? Message-ID: <161227065076.23782.6204713359384710863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Can anyone help me with the following words? I am struggling to interpret a list of what ought to be various types of instrumental music (vaadya). The begins with two items which do not fit in an obvious manner. The phrase runs: vanaspati-nady-ucchaTaa-taala-murajaadi-vaadya-zabda.h. I take this to mean (roughly) "sounds of instrumental music such as vanaspati, nadi(i), snapping of fingers, clapping of hands, [and] drums." The problem is how to render vanaspati and nadi(i). The first could be read as "wooden instruments" (though any other suggestions would be welcome). I am, however, completely at a loss as to how I might interpret the latter as a type of instrumental music. The Tibetan translation is of little help, as it does not interpret these terms, reading "groves" (nags tshal) and "streams" (chu bo). Musical as the sounds of groves and streams may be, given that the text specifies vaadya, I figure I need to find *instruments* that would correspond to these terms. Thank you in advance for any assistance. Best, Christian Wedemeyer University of Copenhagen From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Fri Dec 8 13:45:01 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 00 14:45:01 +0100 Subject: Parthasarathi wanted! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065074.23782.6887472290140723892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, Some time ago I posted the message below on RISA-L, but didn't find exactly what I was looking for. So here I go again: I am just putting the finishing touches on my Bhagavadgita -- the first direct Sanskrit-to-Swedish translation since 1908 -- and for the cover I would like to have something authentic, yet acceptable to Scandinavian sensibilities (i.e., not in the gaudy bazaar style). I know that Indian editions of the Gita sometimes carry illustrations of Krishna as Parthasarathi in a simple, pleasing style reminiscent of woodcuts or engravings -- though I'm not sure what technique is actually used to produce them. If any list member should happen to have access to such an illustration, of reasonably good quality, or know where one can be found, I would be very grateful to hear from you! Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten Lund University From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Dec 8 16:34:52 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 00 16:34:52 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065088.23782.9443691495255178829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> G.v.Simson wrote: > I have no Old Testament at hand here in my office (perhaps I should), but I > wonder whether this should not be interpreted as: your sins shall be white > i.e. they shall washed off, be no sins any more, they shall disappear? I think you are right -- the new JPS bible has: "Be your sins like crimson, they can turn snow-white; Be they red as dyed wool, they can become like fleece" Just before this verse, Isa 1.16 has "Wash yourselves clean; put your evil doings away from My sight" which seems to contextualize v18. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Dec 8 15:36:37 2000 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 00 16:36:37 +0100 Subject: Black as Evil In-Reply-To: <20001208141044.11761.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065079.23782.12287378425991555512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Sin's color isn't black always. The bible gives it as > white too: > > "'Though your sins are like scarlet, > they shall be white as snow; > Though they are red like crimson, > they shall be like wool . . .'" (Isaiah 1:18, NIV.)> I have no Old Testament at hand here in my office (perhaps I should), but I wonder whether this should not be interpreted as: your sins shall be white i.e. they shall washed off, be no sins any more, they shall disappear? >>There is no real point in contrasting the black god Vishnu-Krishna >>with the white of mourning ... > > Is the God Vishnu known to be black from earliest > Sanskrit sources? Given the portrayal of black in > the duality theme both in Iran and India, could > the black God Vishnu represent acculturation > in India? Perhaps black as a God is missing in > Persia. The Rgveda does not yet say that Vishnu is black, as far as I know, but since it does not say very much about the god anyway, we cannot arrive at the conclusion that he was not conceived as black either. For me his identification with Krishna, "the Black one" is more than a mere coincidence, but I think that his blackness has a symbolic value and has nothing to do with skin colour and even less with beauty. One of the most important manifestations/incarnations of the later Vishnu is the boar, an animal characterized by its black colour, but not by its beauty. One of the (many) meanings of blackness is absence of light = absence of distinct/visible forms; it can therefore indicate mysteriousness and magic, both characteristics of Vishnu. This is a complicated subject, and I will certainly not be able to convince you in a few lines. I just started writing a major article on Vishnu, but - as I have many other things to do - it will take time to finish it, so please be patient! >>Are you so sure that black never is associated with negative >>ideas in Tamil literature and that white is just associated >>with mourning and never with anything positive? > >Tamil literature does not cast black as a non-likeable >color at all. And, the duality theme of putting >white against black is absent too. > Experience people in South India never fear in the dark, and is black never associated with the darkness of night or of a cave inhabited by monsters? That would be remarkable indeed. Sanskrit poets compare the bright (and white!) disk of the full moon with a beautiful face. This is in fact the most common comparison of all. And the dark (=black) spots in the moon can be considered as a blemish (doSa; see e.g. Kalidasa, Kumarasambhava 1.3.), thus (in this context) black = ugly. So there are many reasons "of putting white against black" and the complete absence of this duality in Tamil literature would indeed surprise me. Is the just mentioned comparison of the bright moon with a beautiful face unknown in Tamil poetry? I understand well that black skin is described as beautiful as is black hair or black eyes of women in Western literature. But are there not other contexts where black appears as ugly, as a blemish (like black spots on clothes)? Please enlighten us! Regards, G.v.Simson From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Fri Dec 8 21:59:58 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 00 16:59:58 -0500 Subject: Black as Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065095.23782.5255088991827692810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the current explanation for the fact that the name is quite common among Tamils, but is fairly rare (if ever) among North Indian Hindus. Likewise for Murugan, Swaminathan, and Subrahmanian. V. V. Raman From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Dec 8 17:18:41 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 00 17:18:41 +0000 Subject: Science Fiction Question for an Indologist (fwd) Message-ID: <161227065081.23782.11591561373478105356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:52:21 -0500 (EST) From: John Robert Gardner Reply-To: John Robert Gardner Subject: Science Fiction Question for an Indologist (fwd) Cc: Juergen.Mehlhop at Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE Greetings: Please consider responding to the query below (querant is cc'd above), one could of course argue the notion of various tales from ancient times as not unlike Sci Fi, or that Dayanand Saraswati gave a science take on the RV (atman-bomb, etc.), but I'm curious if someone has any input on the following: In our western culture, we sometimes ignore inventions made in the Eastern World. A typical question for quiz shows is who invented the book printing technology aiming at Johannes Guttenberg, ignoring that in China they had book printing already 500 years earlier and they were printing in colour as Guttenberg had printed his first book. So far, I thought that the first science fiction novel ever was "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelly. Lately I have been told that this actually is not true, there should have been a woman in India who wrote some science fiction earlier, some kind of robots doing housework should play a role in this. Have you ever heard of this, and if so, can you tell me who the author was? thanks, jr =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| John Robert Gardner Enterprise Management Architecture Group Sun Microsystems Inc., MailStop UBUR02-306 1 Network Drive Burlington, MA 01803-0903 | "Failure is not an option" | Ph. 781-442-0692 | Eugene Crantz Fax 781-442-1539 | NASA e-mail john.robert.gardner at sun.com ----------------------------------- http://vedavid.org/diss/ http://vedavid.org/xml/docs/ ------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| John Robert Gardner Enterprise Management Architecture Group Sun Microsystems Inc., MailStop UBUR02-306 1 Network Drive Burlington, MA 01803-0903 | "Failure is not an option" | Ph. 781-442-0692 | Eugene Crantz Fax 781-442-1539 | NASA e-mail john.robert.gardner at sun.com ----------------------------------- http://vedavid.org/diss/ http://vedavid.org/xml/docs/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 8 17:24:44 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 00 17:24:44 +0000 Subject: Vishnu Message-ID: <161227065083.23782.17180644213022428210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Simson wrote: >The Rgveda does not yet say that Vishnu is black, as far as I know, but >since it does not say very much about the god anyway, we cannot arrive at >the conclusion that he was not conceived as black either. For me his >identification with Krishna, "the Black one" is more than a mere >coincidence, but I think that his blackness has a symbolic value and has >nothing to do with skin colour and even less with beauty. One of the most >important manifestations/incarnations of the >later Vishnu is the boar, an animal characterized by its black colour, but >not by its beauty. One of the (many) meanings of blackness is absence of >light = absence of distinct/visible forms; it can therefore indicate >mysteriousness and magic, both characteristics of Vishnu. This is a >complicated subject, and I will certainly not be able to convince you in a >few lines. I just started writing a major article on Vishnu, but - >as I have many other things to do - it will take time to finish it, so >please be patient! I read in a book on Vishnu (will give the reference, page number later). Black VishNu statues are called something like abhI-sAra vishNu. So, people might have feared from this mysterious magical VishNu in the early stages. Did they worship so that they can avoid harm and wrath from him? VishNu is mAl(Thiru-mAl=Vishnu) and mAyan. Tamil lexicon: a) mA = 1. greatness; 2. strength b) mA = 1. beauty; 2. blackness; 3. colour; 4. paleness caused by love-sickness c) mA = 1. animal, beast; 2. horse; 3. elephant; 4. male of horse, hog or elephant; d) mAyan2 = 1. dark complexioned person; 2. Vis2n2u; 3. deceitful person e) mAyavan2 = Vis2n2u f) mAl= 1. illusion, delusion, aberration of mind; dullness; stupor; confusion; 2. desire; 3. love; lust; 4. blackness g) mAl = 1. greatness; 2. great man; 3. cf. ma1la Vis2n2u; 4. Arhat; 5. Indra; 6. wind; 7. mercury; 8. Co1l6a king; 9. mountain; 10. plenty; fertility; 11. antiquity; 12. cloud; 13. a plant that grows only in hot and dry places h) mAl(lu)-tal = to be confused, perturbed. Yes, the boar is not beautiful. But Laxmi's color is black, and paintings (and sangam texts) portray Kaama as black. P. T. Srinivasa Aiyangar(1926) derives mAyA in RV from tamil: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9911&L=indology&P=R8466 Compared to Iranians, Indians prefered night rituals. And, nAL-mIn = night-star and, telugu nal- = black. Is this nAL=black embedded in the name Naaraayana? Did Indians first worship Gods because they are to be feared, and hence to be satisfied? A parallel is Iravatham Mahadevan's thinking. He says Murukan(Subramaniam) in early stages was a demon who inflicted illness on children etc., Following a book by P. L. Samy, (a study of Murukan in sangam poems), an emancipated crouching deity with chest bones represented like a comb is the Indus sign for Murukan, so claims I. Mahadevan. Kumaara is a youthful deity happened much later, the article says. They work from the semantics of Muruku and its occurences and vElan shaman in CT. This article must be useful for you, I'm sure. The reference: I. Mahadevan, 'Murukan' in the Indus script, p. 21-40. J. Inst. of Asian studies (Madras), vol. XVI, no. 2, March 1999. With kind regards, N. Ganesan _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Dec 8 17:49:14 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 00 17:49:14 +0000 Subject: New history of medicine group Message-ID: <161227065086.23782.15127415176474416066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have started up a group at egroups, called histmed, for the academic discussion of medical history. See http://www.egroups.com/group/histmed/ -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ghezziem at TIN.IT Fri Dec 8 20:22:55 2000 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 00 20:22:55 +0000 Subject: R: Musical trees and rivers? Message-ID: <161227065092.23782.4853269761781967690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dearest Colleague, it is a very interesting query. I am not expert in Indian music (I study and translate Classical kavya, alamkarasastra and so on), but I have discussed the problem with my husband, who teaches "musical composition" in the Musical Academy of Parma (Italy). Taking apart the possibility that nadi and vanaspati (wooden drum?) can be only a poetical allusion to the "songs" of a grove with a river (many, many times I have read that this "natural music" accompany - for example - a woman in love and god Kama), You can think about an instrument similar to the Western glasharmonika or aeliphon. >?From which text come this stanza? Finally, if You want I can - by means of my husband - contact the most important Italian teachers of ethnomusicology. All the best, Yours faithfully, Daniela (excuse me, it is a very little help!) ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** ---------- >Da: "Christian K. Wedemeyer" >A: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Oggetto: Musical trees and rivers? >Data: Ven, 8 dic 2000 13:51 > > Dear Colleagues, > > Can anyone help me with the following words? I am struggling to interpret a > list of what ought to be various types of instrumental music (vaadya). The > begins with two items which do not fit in an obvious manner. The phrase > runs: vanaspati-nady-ucchaTaa-taala-murajaadi-vaadya-zabda.h. I take this to > mean (roughly) "sounds of instrumental music such as vanaspati, nadi(i), > snapping of fingers, clapping of hands, [and] drums." > > The problem is how to render vanaspati and nadi(i). The first could be read > as "wooden instruments" (though any other suggestions would be welcome). I > am, however, completely at a loss as to how I might interpret the latter as a > type of instrumental music. The Tibetan translation is of little help, as it > does not interpret these terms, reading "groves" (nags tshal) and "streams" > (chu bo). Musical as the sounds of groves and streams may be, given that the > text specifies vaadya, I figure I need to find *instruments* that would > correspond to these terms. > > Thank you in advance for any assistance. > > Best, > > Christian Wedemeyer > University of Copenhagen From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 9 01:26:56 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 00 01:26:56 +0000 Subject: Musical trees and rivers? Message-ID: <161227065097.23782.2621796360833629907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >begins with two items which do not fit in an obvious manner. The phrase >runs: vanaspati-nady-ucchaTaa-taala-murajaadi-vaadya-zabda.h. I take this >to >mean (roughly) "sounds of instrumental music such as vanaspati, nadi(i), >snapping of fingers, clapping of hands, [and] drums." Monier-Williams lists one meaning of vanaspati as "anything made of wood, esp. partic. parts of a car or carriage, a wooden drum, a wooden amulet, a block on which criminals are executed, a coffin & c." The references given are RV, AV and VS. In the Carnatic system of music, vanaspati is the name of a rAga, and the standard meaning given to the name in the new musicological texts is, "a kind of drum" (i.e. not the modern Indian name for hydrogenated vegetable oil!). I was going to suggest that nadI may be a reference to the sound of stringed instruments, but everything else in the list is a percussive sound, so this doesn't fit. Perhaps, like the snapping of fingers, it refers to the plucking of stringed instruments? Or else, nadi as the name of another kind of drum? Alternatively, is there a textual reason that the word could be nAdi, derived from nAda, instead of nadI? Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Dec 9 01:37:30 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 00 01:37:30 +0000 Subject: Musical trees and rivers? Message-ID: <161227065099.23782.8115496940677847636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Christian K. Wedemeyer wrote: > The phrase > runs: vanaspati-nady-ucchaTaa-taala-murajaadi-vaadya-zabda.h. I take this to > mean (roughly) "sounds of instrumental music such as vanaspati, nadi(i), > snapping of fingers, clapping of hands, [and] drums." Does your text concern Abhidharma matters ? It seems reminiscent of the definition of sound (`sabda) in three categories according to whether they are natural, artificial or a combination. The following quote from the Abhidharma-samuccaya-bhaa.sya might be relevent: "tatropaatta-mahaa-bhuuta-hetukas tad yathaa vaak-chabda.h | anupaatta-mahaa-bhuuta-hetukas tad yathaa v.rk.sa-`sabda.h | tad-ubhayas tad yathaa hasta-m.rda`nga-`sabda.h |" Thus you have: anupaatta-`sabda = vanaspati and nadii upaatta-`sabda = uccha.ta and taala ubhaya-`sabda = muraja Does this make sense ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 9 01:49:21 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 00 01:49:21 +0000 Subject: Musical trees and rivers? Message-ID: <161227065102.23782.695994268578201967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Christian K. Wedemeyer wrote: > The phrase runs: > vanaspati-nady-ucchaTaa-taala-murajaadi-vaadya-zabda.h. >I take this to mean (roughly) "sounds of instrumental music such >as vanaspati, nadi(i), snapping of fingers, clapping of hands, >[and] drums." Monier-Williams lists: nAda m. ( %{nad}) a loud sound , roaring , bellowing , crying RV. &c. nada m. a roarer , bellower , thunderer , crier , neigher &c. (as a cloud , horse , bull , met. a man , i , 179 , 4) RV. ; N. of RV. viii , 58 , 2 (beginning with %{nadam}) S3Br. S3a1n3khS3r. ; a river (if thought of as male ifc. ind. %{-nadam} ; cf. %{nadI}) Mn. MBh. &c. ; = %{naDa} , reed RV. i , 32 , 8; (%{I}) f. see %{nadI4}. Is this a trumpet? or a reed instrument popularly known as nAdasvaram? _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From alimor at INDIA.COM Sat Dec 9 09:21:46 2000 From: alimor at INDIA.COM (Romila Thapar) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 00 14:51:46 +0530 Subject: Inappropriate INDOLOGY posting Message-ID: <161227065115.23782.12772376442436630595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dominik Wujastyk" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 4:16 PM Subject: Inappropriate INDOLOGY posting > Dear Sanjay, > > As I mentioned to you earlier, I have the highest regard for the Shri > Venkateshwar Steam Press, and I am delighted to have been able to include > a link to your web pages from the INDOLOGY webstite. > > However, please note that the INDOLOGY discussion list is purely for > academic matters, and it is absolutely forbidden to use the list for > advertising or commercial promotion. > > May I ask you to limit your postings to the list to matters relating to > actual research in indology. > > Authors are positively encouraged to send news to INDOLOGY about any > recent scholarly publications, but publishers are asked not to use the > list for promoting their companies; the proper outlet for that is their > own websites, which are linked to INDOLOGY. > > Many thanks, > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. > > > From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sun Dec 10 02:27:59 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 00 18:27:59 -0800 Subject: Scary Spice Message-ID: <161227065112.23782.12392324980098102463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> It?s strange. In matters of finance, ?in the black? means one is rolling in it, while ?in the red? means just the opposite. But a ?red-blooded? person is strong and robust. Still, whatever ones skin tone, we all know well what it?s like to have a black heart. And indeed, would Scary Spice be any less scary if she were white? I think she?s right. ?Racism is not going to go away soon.? So it?s better that we confront this ugly fact of life while our minds are still young and resilient. This list should be something like a wide and multi-laned freeway. Just let the wild ones keep to the right, or is the left? Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 9 18:30:39 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 00 18:30:39 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065106.23782.18314898061515904357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Shanmugalingam quoted: It is well implanted in some that as Gary Zukav in his book "The seat of the soul" said, "We associate white with purity, goodness and rightness. White is the symbol of positive and protective energy. We dress heroes and heroines in white. White represents wholeness of spirit. We associate God, God's messengers and heaven with white. We picture angels in robes of white. We associate black with evil. We dress villains in black. Black is the symbol of destruction. When catastrophe strikes, we call it a black day. Black represents despair, anger and rage, which are absences of love, compassion and forgiveness. We say that a person who feels these things is in black mood." Gary's clear-cut stereotyping may not fit in Indian situations. Black like other colors has multiplex valency. In Indian religions, black is energy. And, widows wear white, not the heroines. White ghosts are feared. Super gods are black. In Europe, Catastrophous days are black days, whereas in india, black days when monsoon clouds darken the sky are occasion for celebration. Peacocks and people dance. In tamil, 'mA' = black, beauty, etc., 'irumai'=dark, great, ... ---------- Europe's traditional thinking on Blacks: " Black men became the butt of merciless censure by the white man, from Noah's curse on Ham, whom first rabbinic and then Protestant exegesis considered responsible for the crimes of castration and incest, to the classification of Linnaeus and the descriptions of several philosophers of the Enlightenment. Blackness, and with it a great range of evil associations, was contrasted with whiteness, as was innocence with crime, vice with virtue, and bestiality with humanity. The strength of the mutual temptations between black and white can be inferred from the sternness with which they are repressed, and social vetoes suggest the strictness of a taboo which only stimulated the bio-sexual attraction it was supposed to check. Classical Antiquity had also made much of the sensuality and shamelessness of Negroes, to whom recent science obstinately attributed a monstrous penis. World literature, but especially that of Anglo-Saxon countries from Shakespeare to Poe and Melville - all of them in love with whiteness - acquaints us with the leaps of imagination which associated black skin with evil or with lubricity or, more plainly, with the beast. Professor W. D. Jordan, whose majesterial analyses we summarize, has also observed that when the most primitive pssions sought expression through pseudo-scientific generalizations, travellers' tales were enough to transform fantasies about the bestiality of the Blacks into anthropological theories. As it happened, the first explorations of the Dark Continent revealed the existence of not only of aborginal tribes but of hordes of large anthropoid apes, and observers were unable or unwilling to distinguish between the two. A more common error than that of Rousseau who asked himself whether these apes were not men was that of Voltaire who assimilated the Negroes to the apes on the strength of these same ingenuous and fanciful travellers' tales." [p. 135-6, Poliakov, The Aryan myth, 1974] _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Dec 9 19:21:47 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 00 19:21:47 +0000 Subject: Musical trees and rivers? Message-ID: <161227065108.23782.5222627678211600974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Christian K. Wedemeyer wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > Can anyone help me with the following words? I am struggling to interpret a > > list of what ought to be various types of instrumental music (vaadya). The > > begins with two items which do not fit in an obvious manner. The phrase > > runs: vanaspati-nady-ucchaTaa-taala-murajaadi-vaadya-zabda.h. I take this to > > mean (roughly) "sounds of instrumental music such as vanaspati, nadi(i), > > snapping of fingers, clapping of hands, [and] drums." Despite all the helpful musical suggestions, I think people are barking up the wrong tree (excuse the pun). I am almsot 100% certain that your text is alluding to the three types of sound I mentioned previously. I suggest you look under "`sabda" at the first chapter of the Yogaacaaara-bhuumi, where Asa`nga explicates them in greater detail using the same and other stock examples. You should read the phrase as : vanaspati-nadii-`sabda.h uccha.taa-taala-`sabda.h murajaadi-vaadya-zabda.h. Hope this finally clarifies the matter for you. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sat Dec 9 19:51:37 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 00 20:51:37 +0100 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065110.23782.8317209625309570350.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Several days ago I had the opportunity to watch how people in the Netherlands celebrate Sinterklaas - Saint Nikolas day, 5th September, when this Saint, with red dress, red face and long white beard, visits children and presents them gifts. But guess who is the Saint's companion and helper, distributing gifts to children? "Zwarte Piet", i.e. the Black Pete, absolutely black youth with African features - he is even more popular with children than Sinterklaas himself! And this tradition is at least several centuries old... There are many examples of this kind which contradict "European traditional thinking on blacks" as it was formulated by L.Polyakov. Shakespear "associated black skin with evil"? What about Otello - a bit too "sensuous" maybe, but a tragic hero, no doubt! Great Russian poet Pushkin (early XIX century) never missed a chance to show how proud he was that his grandfather was an African (who had become, by the way, a general in the Russian army). An Indian known under the name "Porus of Vizapur", who seems to have had very dark skin, was made by the Queen Katherine II (XVIII century) a Russian nobleman and a high official; his son was a writer who wrote in French... Such facts do not go well with Polyakov's generalizations according to which Europeans of that time saw in the Blacks "beasts" or "apes". In every nation there are some people who suffer xenophobia - fear of strangers, of humans with different physical features. In the less civilized societies xenophobiacs constitute the majority. With the growth and refinement of culture xenophobia usually disappears surviving only on cultural periphery. In the modern world most of the nations reached such a level of civilization that xenophobic feelings look like an atavism. I see no reason at all to continue investigating how bad some whites considered the blacks to be in the past. And vise versa. Or do you think that there were never any bad feelings among the Blacks towards the Whites? Have not you ever heard, e.g., a story about the origine of Whites from the union of a runaway Black criminal with a swine? Widespread in different parts of the world. Or the anti-White mythology of the American Black Muslims? What good it will do if we shall collect foolish stories of this kind on our List? That is why I agree with several list-members who have already said before: the topic designated "Black as Evil" is harmful and dangerous. We should better drop it for good. Best regards Yaroslav Vassilkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Venkatraman Iyer" To: Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 7:30 PM Subject: Re: Black as Evil > Europe's traditional thinking on Blacks: > " Black men became the butt of merciless censure by the > white man, from Noah's curse on Ham, whom first rabbinic > and then Protestant exegesis considered responsible for > the crimes of castration and incest, to the classification > of Linnaeus and the descriptions of several philosophers > of the Enlightenment. Blackness, and with it a great range > of evil associations, was contrasted with whiteness, as > was innocence with crime, vice with virtue, and bestiality > with humanity. The strength of the mutual temptations > between black and white can be inferred from the sternness > with which they are repressed, and social vetoes suggest > the strictness of a taboo which only stimulated the bio-sexual > attraction it was supposed to check. Classical Antiquity > had also made much of the sensuality and shamelessness > of Negroes, to whom recent science obstinately attributed > a monstrous penis. World literature, but especially that > of Anglo-Saxon countries from Shakespeare to Poe and > Melville - all of them in love with whiteness - acquaints > us with the leaps of imagination which associated black > skin with evil or with lubricity or, more plainly, with > the beast. Professor W. D. Jordan, whose majesterial > analyses we summarize, has also observed that when the > most primitive pssions sought expression through > pseudo-scientific generalizations, travellers' tales > were enough to transform fantasies about the bestiality > of the Blacks into anthropological theories. As it > happened, the first explorations of the Dark Continent > revealed the existence of not only of aborginal tribes > but of hordes of large anthropoid apes, and observers > were unable or unwilling to distinguish between the two. > A more common error than that of Rousseau who asked > himself whether these apes were not men was that of > Voltaire who assimilated the Negroes to the apes on the > strength of these same ingenuous and fanciful travellers' > tales." > [p. 135-6, Poliakov, The Aryan myth, 1974] > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Dec 10 01:13:16 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 00 01:13:16 +0000 Subject: Musical trees and rivers? Message-ID: <161227065104.23782.14897408309918873820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Christian K. Wedemeyer wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > Can anyone help me with the following words? I am struggling to interpret a > list of what ought to be various types of instrumental music (vaadya). The > begins with two items which do not fit in an obvious manner. The phrase > runs: vanaspati-nady-ucchaTaa-taala-murajaadi-vaadya-zabda.h. I take this to > mean (roughly) "sounds of instrumental music such as vanaspati, nadi(i), > snapping of fingers, clapping of hands, [and] drums." Could we not read this line to mean as: Vanaspati, Nadii, uccitikaa, taala are the s.abdah ( sounds,sound patterns ) produced on muraja and others (drums). Does this fit in with the context of the line ? I am ammending ucchaTaa to uccitikaa. I do not know of any reference in musicologicl texts to an instrument or a musical term called ucchaTaa. Nadii is a metre and hence a syllabic sequence produced on the drums, as given by Bharata Muni and Naanyadeva. It is well defined and was in currency it seems for more than a millennium. It was used as drum sound for joy as certified by Naanyadeva. Uccitikaa is mentioned both by Bharata Muni and Abhinava to mean a string of syllables or a phrase, present day term in Hindi 'bol', in drums (pus.karavaadye) NS 31 and reiterated by Naanyadeva . Taala is also a vaadyaprapandhah or a 'bol', says S.aarngadeva. Vanaspati is a mystery. Yes, a melaraaga but that does not fit in here. What is this text by the way from where your line comes ? Does this help or is it confusion worse confounded ? best, Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Sun Dec 10 20:33:54 2000 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 00 12:33:54 -0800 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065120.23782.17349850236037174753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > That is why I agree with several list-members who have already said > before: the topic designated "Black as Evil" is harmful and dangerous. We > should better drop it for good. > > Best regards > Yaroslav Vassilkov > > I take exception to any suggestion that ideas such be banned because they are "dangerous." We are free men and women and may speak as we choose. No actual, genuine "danger" from these ideas has been identified. An objection that the subject is not appropriate to the subject of Indology might have standing, but an objection that an idea should be banned because it is "harmful and dangerous" has none whatever. Nor is discussion of this idea harmful or dangerous even in concept. Civilization advances when ideas are freely discussed. There may be occasions when discussion of a particular idea in a particular place and time may be sufficiently dangerous that speech may be banned (the classic example is crying "Fire!" in a crowded theater), but this certainly is not one. The discussion has been carried on in fairly good humor, and none of us, I trust, are racists. The real problem I see is that the idea can only hold so much water. The use of color as imagery can be variable and follows no hard and fast rules. What do you do, for example, with the fact that, in popular American folklore, every girl's dream is for a "tall, DARK and handsome" husband or lover? Of course, I suppose they are IEs and not IAs. Still, the idea has some merit and may cast some additional light on what went on in India's murky past. Much more recently, the conquest of America involved a (perhaps!) similar confrontation of white and black/brown/red races, and some scholars have found reflections of that confrontation in American literature. See, for example, Leslie Fiedler's "Love and Death in the American Novel" on the pervasive impact of American Indians on American writing. David From AppuArchie at NETZERO.NET Sun Dec 10 13:46:49 2000 From: AppuArchie at NETZERO.NET (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 00 13:46:49 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil In-Reply-To: <01JXJNAIITBYT9W5MN@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> Message-ID: <161227065131.23782.4127003869339799845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello extensively read list members What is the harm in continuing with the discussion on {Black as evil - concept}? After all it does not affect anyone since there are neither white as milk or black as ebony humans? However, black and white used as metaphors in inanimate description fits humans of every description irrespective of ethnicity or cultural background. e.g. You find blackguards among Caucasians and white knights among non-Caucasians. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of V.V. Raman Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 9:18 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Black as Evil Dear Dave: 1. I agree, in spirit and in principle, with everything you have stated in response to the suggestion that we discontinue the discussion of the roots and remnants of the . 2. But could it be that when Yaroslav Vassilkov said that the subject might be what was meant was that it is laden with emotions for many people in this day and age, and that re-stressing and re-hashing it interminably could bring out the passions and prejudices of some people, or instigate anger in others, or call for revenge in the minds of yet others, etc.? 3. I am inclined to think, as you do, that there are no racists in this group. But some might think that the attribution of this concept to their ancestors is equivalent to calling racists? Indeed, aside from historically valid reasons, this too is a reason why many Hindus today vehemently argue that black-skinned people were never regarded in any derogatory way in India: a contention which some have some difficulty in conceding. 4. What would be interesting is if someone who has been following this thread carefully were to summarize for the group what are some of the findings on this question as of now, on the basis of literary and historical evidence. Best regards, V. V. Raman December 10, 2000 From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Sun Dec 10 21:17:54 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 00 16:17:54 -0500 Subject: Black as Evil In-Reply-To: <000401c062e8$c471c920$0100a8c0@workgroup> Message-ID: <161227065122.23782.6582501312617984900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dave: 1. I agree, in spirit and in principle, with everything you have stated in response to the suggestion that we discontinue the discussion of the roots and remnants of the . 2. But could it be that when Yaroslav Vassilkov said that the subject might be what was meant was that it is laden with emotions for many people in this day and age, and that re-stressing and re-hashing it interminably could bring out the passions and prejudices of some people, or instigate anger in others, or call for revenge in the minds of yet others, etc.? 3. I am inclined to think, as you do, that there are no racists in this group. But some might think that the attribution of this concept to their ancestors is equivalent to calling racists? Indeed, aside from historically valid reasons, this too is a reason why many Hindus today vehemently argue that black-skinned people were never regarded in any derogatory way in India: a contention which some have some difficulty in conceding. 4. What would be interesting is if someone who has been following this thread carefully were to summarize for the group what are some of the findings on this question as of now, on the basis of literary and historical evidence. Best regards, V. V. Raman December 10, 2000 From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Sun Dec 10 21:45:50 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 00 16:45:50 -0500 Subject: Black as Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065128.23782.10521776353629675753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Vidyasankar: That seems to be a concise summary. Now it would be nice to have a similar summary (of perceptions/ interpretations/ statements) on the discussions from a representative of the you are referring to. Best regards, V. V. Raman December 10, 2000 From raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE Sun Dec 10 19:20:13 2000 From: raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE (Raoul Martens) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 00 20:20:13 +0100 Subject: genetic markers Message-ID: <161227065117.23782.7834107540252430207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The NATURE issue of Dec. 7, 2000 has three articles about population genetics where mitochondrial DNA only was applied as genetic marker. 1. Origin of species (editorial) 2. Mitochondrial genome variations and the origine of modern humans by Max Ingman, Henrik Kaessmann, Svante P??bo & Ulf Gyllensten 3. A start for population genetics by S. Blair Hedges Sincerely Raoul Martens From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 10 21:23:53 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 00 21:23:53 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065124.23782.5178620932383921183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, The study of Dravidian duality is interesting. After a good search, the black against white duality could not be found in Sangam tamil texts. What I find is darkness (black) versus red dualism in a few rare instances. No black vs. white dualism though! In both of the examples, the heart/intelligence is considered bad if it is dark (black) instead of being red. Note that 'manasu' in Tamil refers to heart, which is 'red' symbolically. Like the biblical instances, 'my body turns black' means lifeless or death, and inside of the heart is like a cave. a) A sangam textual example: koTiyai vAzi tumpi i nOy paTuka til amma yAn2 nin2akku uraitten2a mey E karumai an2Ri um cevvan2 aRivu um karitu O aRan2 ilOy nin2akku E (naR.277.1-4) b) A tirukkuRaL example: puRamkun2Ri kaNDanaiya rEn2um akamkun2Ri mUkkiR kariyAr uTaittu (kuRaL 277) The Aryan texts' duality of black versus white and this notion's application and influence in Revelation and John is remarkable. Regards, N. Ganesan _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 10 21:32:11 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 00 21:32:11 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065126.23782.17663043417326927320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I take exception to any suggestion that ideas such be banned because they >are "dangerous." We are free men and women and may speak as we Ideas need not be banned, but the manner of discussion and the selective and repetitive assertion of certain ideas makes one wonder where the discussion is headed. And also to question how the said ideas are formed in the first place. >one. The discussion has been carried on in fairly good humor, and none of >us, I trust, are racists. Debatable. I join you in expressing the hope that none of us is racist. However, it seems to me that those who have shown the most enthusiasm on this thread are not so sure. They seem to believe that many list-members are indeed racist. If I may summarize the predetermined conclusions sought to be established by a few (?) list notables, supported by some ottu-UtukiravarkaL (check with the Tamil specialists for the meaning of this term) - 1. The "Aryan" texts, Veda and Avesta, gave birth to the idea that black is evil. Ergo, these people were the original racists, as are their descendants today. However, they became racist only after they entered India. They were not racists when they lived in their original homeland, wherever that might have been, for they never encountered black skin (kRshNa-tvac) there. Judaism and Christianity have only borrowed the black vs. white divide from Persian sources, as proved by repeated assertion. 2. In opposition, "Dravidian" India, from Indus valley times, regarded white as bad, and made widows wear white. They also celebrated black, and welcomed the black rain-cloud, and said the god mAl/nArAyaNa was black in color. Ergo, this is a 3000 year old subaltern tradition that represents the "real" India. Therefore, (Western) Indologists should all shift to Dravidian studies if they want to study the real India and if they want to denounce the problematic racism in their own historical legacy in Europe and America. There are a few variations built into the above song, but this is the theme and the refrain. Best regards, Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From hindu108 at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 11 12:16:45 2000 From: hindu108 at YAHOO.COM (Akhilesh Jha) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 04:16:45 -0800 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065149.23782.6920903399923108452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar and Vanakkam, I also fully agree with Sri Vidyasanakar's observations. I find it hard to believe that knowledgeable people should still be discussing such obsolete ideas as the one that attempts to interpret Vedas on the lines of racist thinking which is just another way of clinging on to thoroughly discredited Aryan Invasion Theory. Jha --- Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote: > I wholy concur with Vidyasanskar's perception of > 'hidden agenda' and > the 'sub-plot' to this thread. > > On Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:32:11 -0000, Vidyasankar > Sundaresan > wrote: > > >>I take exception to any suggestion that ideas such > be banned because they > >>are "dangerous." We are free men and women and > may speak as we > >Ideas need not be banned, but the manner of > discussion and the > >selective and repetitive assertion of certain ideas > makes one > >wonder where the discussion is headed. And also to > question how > >the said ideas are formed in the first place. > > > >>one. The discussion has been carried on in fairly > good humor, and none of > >>us, I trust, are racists. > > > >Debatable. I join you in expressing the hope that > none of us > >is racist. However, it seems to me that those who > have shown > >the most enthusiasm on this thread are not so sure. > They seem > >to believe that many list-members are indeed > racist. > > > >If I may summarize the predetermined conclusions > sought to > >be established by a few (?) list notables, > supported by some > >ottu-UtukiravarkaL (check with the Tamil > specialists for the > >meaning of this term) - > > > >1. The "Aryan" texts, Veda and Avesta, gave birth > to the idea > >that black is evil. Ergo, these people were the > original racists, > >as are their descendants today. However, they > became racist only > >after they entered India. They were not racists > when they lived > >in their original homeland, wherever that might > have been, for > >they never encountered black skin (kRshNa-tvac) > there. Judaism > >and Christianity have only borrowed the black vs. > white divide > >from Persian sources, as proved by repeated > assertion. > > > >2. In opposition, "Dravidian" India, from Indus > valley times, > >regarded white as bad, and made widows wear white. > They also > >celebrated black, and welcomed the black > rain-cloud, and said > >the god mAl/nArAyaNa was black in color. Ergo, this > is a 3000 > >year old subaltern tradition that represents the > "real" India. > >Therefore, (Western) Indologists should all shift > to Dravidian > >studies if they want to study the real India and if > they want > >to denounce the problematic racism in their own > historical > >legacy in Europe and America. > > > >There are a few variations built into the above > song, but this > >is the theme and the refrain. > > > >Best regards, > >Vidyasankar. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 11 14:23:58 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 06:23:58 -0800 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065151.23782.1024531709628097034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sven Ekelin wrote >By the way, compare the Song of Songs 1:5, where the bride says: >I am black and beautiful, ... (NRSV) >Nigra sum sed formosa, ... (Vulgate). Song of Songs and the ancient Indian love poems have been compared. Mariaselvam, Abraham. The Song of Songs and ancient Tamil love poems : poetry and symbolism. Roma : Editrice Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 1988. +++++++++++++++++++ David Salmon wrote: >Job does use "black" in close association with a discussion of the evil that >befell him, but the context is ambiguous and may only be descriptive of the >illness that had afflicted him: >My skin grows black and peels; my body burns with fever. (Job 30:30) What you say may be right. Compare the given naRRiNai poem: koTiyai vAzi tumpi i nOy paTuka til amma yAn2 nin2akku uraitten2a mey E karumai an2Ri um cevvan2 aRivu um karitu O aRan2 ilOy nin2akku E (naR.277) Here, the speaker of the poem is the Heroine, and is addressed to a black bee. She scolds the 'tumpi' (black (male) bee) with anger and uses "koTiyai" (cruel/inhuman/harsh). Here, she asks if its 'aRivu'(intelligence in the heart) is 'dark' (black)? "NOy" (sickness/disease) of the speaker is also represented in this short poem. In other instances which are many, the black tumpi is said to be shining like a black jewel. "maNi niRat tumpi" (jewel-coloured-bee) in kuRuntokai 392, aiGkuRunURu 215, naRRiNai 17 and so on. Maal-NarayaNa's color (black) is particularly mentioned in kalittokai 46: 'mAal am ciRai maNi niRat tumpi'. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 11 12:00:54 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 07:00:54 -0500 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065144.23782.503910894842155418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Closing this thread? No please, not before we give a fair representation to the black jews who preach on Times Square and wall street. They denounce anything white, desecrate the picture of Jesus. To my surprise no one in the predominently white audience raises an eyebrow. Regards Bhadraiah _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 11 08:15:22 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 08:15:22 +0000 Subject: genetic markers Message-ID: <161227065135.23782.4806186841044137410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raoul Martens wrote: >The NATURE issue of Dec. 7, 2000 has three articles about population >genetics where mitochondrial DNA only was applied as genetic marker. ..... >2. Mitochondrial genome variations and the origine of modern humans >by Max Ingman, Henrik Kaessmann, Svante P??bo & Ulf Gyllensten This is a very important research work about human populations. Three interesting points, in relation to the issues discussed on this list recently - The authors do not agree with the theory of Awadalla et al (Science, 286 (5449): 2524-2525.), that mitochondrial DNA may undergo recombination. They also show how X chromosome data do not correlate exactly with their data in details, but still lead to the same overall conclusions regarding the origins of the modern human species, Homo Sapiens, in Africa. The sample studied consists of 53 individuals from the entire planet, chosen to represent the major linguistic phyla in the world, and corrected for biases introduced by contemporary demographics. The linguists on this list may find the figure of the phylogenetic tree very interesting. It should also be evident that very useful information can be obtained even out of small sample sizes. My feeling is that using larger sample sizes will surely add finer detail, but the overall conclusions drawn in these kinds of studies will remain valid. Genetic studies hold enormous potential for understanding population movements, so long as scientifically valid questions are asked and the right kinds of tests are correspondingly designed. The time scale obtained from the "genetic clock" ranges from 171,000 plus or minus 50,000 years ago (upper bound) and 52,000 plus or minus 27,500 years ago (lower bound). Notice where the data are centered and also how the error bars span 25% to 50% of the mean values. Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Mon Dec 11 09:48:35 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 09:48:35 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065138.23782.15717791477379126052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wholy concur with Vidyasanskar's perception of 'hidden agenda' and the 'sub-plot' to this thread. On Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:32:11 -0000, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >>I take exception to any suggestion that ideas such be banned because they >>are "dangerous." We are free men and women and may speak as we >Ideas need not be banned, but the manner of discussion and the >selective and repetitive assertion of certain ideas makes one >wonder where the discussion is headed. And also to question how >the said ideas are formed in the first place. > >>one. The discussion has been carried on in fairly good humor, and none of >>us, I trust, are racists. > >Debatable. I join you in expressing the hope that none of us >is racist. However, it seems to me that those who have shown >the most enthusiasm on this thread are not so sure. They seem >to believe that many list-members are indeed racist. > >If I may summarize the predetermined conclusions sought to >be established by a few (?) list notables, supported by some >ottu-UtukiravarkaL (check with the Tamil specialists for the >meaning of this term) - > >1. The "Aryan" texts, Veda and Avesta, gave birth to the idea >that black is evil. Ergo, these people were the original racists, >as are their descendants today. However, they became racist only >after they entered India. They were not racists when they lived >in their original homeland, wherever that might have been, for >they never encountered black skin (kRshNa-tvac) there. Judaism >and Christianity have only borrowed the black vs. white divide >from Persian sources, as proved by repeated assertion. > >2. In opposition, "Dravidian" India, from Indus valley times, >regarded white as bad, and made widows wear white. They also >celebrated black, and welcomed the black rain-cloud, and said >the god mAl/nArAyaNa was black in color. Ergo, this is a 3000 >year old subaltern tradition that represents the "real" India. >Therefore, (Western) Indologists should all shift to Dravidian >studies if they want to study the real India and if they want >to denounce the problematic racism in their own historical >legacy in Europe and America. > >There are a few variations built into the above song, but this >is the theme and the refrain. > >Best regards, >Vidyasankar. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 11 15:43:45 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 10:43:45 -0500 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065160.23782.16562512448014422973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Akhilesh Jha obsolete ideas as the one that attempts to interpret >Vedas on the lines of racist thinking which is just Interpret vedas? I never saw words like sAmidhenIs, nigaDAs, praiSAs on this list. We are miles away. Kindly let me announce creation of new a forum "VedicRitual" at egroups.com to discuss these matters. Unmoderated, free admission. Regards Bhadraiah _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Mon Dec 11 16:07:06 2000 From: pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 11:07:06 -0500 Subject: Science Fiction Question for an Indologist (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3A34EF47.52DC61F6@Helsinki.Fi> Message-ID: <161227065164.23782.11673740723566126758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See "The Razing of Saubha" in Aranyaparvan of MBh. 3.15-23. Van Buitenen calls it "an early intance of science fiction," and it's pretty wild! Patricia > About robots: > John Robert Gardner: > > So far, I thought that the first science fiction novel ever was > > "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelly. Lately I have been told that this actually > > is not true, there should have been a woman in India who wrote some > > science fiction earlier, some kind of robots doing housework should play a > > role in this. Have you ever heard of this, and if so, can you tell me who > > the author was? ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia From gabriele.zeller at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE Mon Dec 11 10:29:15 2000 From: gabriele.zeller at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (Gabriele Zeller) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 11:29:15 +0100 Subject: Book "Additions to Bloomfields Vedic Concordance" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065140.23782.49064314682340379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Harry Spier, dear Peter Wyzlic, Tuebingen university library has the book under call number: Ca 794 Yours, Gabriele Zeller Sondersammelgebiet Suedasien at Tuebingen university library > On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Harry Spier wrote: > > > A few weeks ago I came across a reference on the internet to a book called > > "Additions to Bloomfields Vedic Concordance" but unfortunately I didn't take > > any notes at the time and now I can no longer remember where I saw the > > reference or find it again. I also don't see the book listed on the Library > > of Congress on-line catalogue. Is anyone familiar with the book and can > > give me the bibliographic reference and any other information about it > > (contents, reliability etc.). > > It may be that the following work is meant: > > Sharma, Aryendra: Beitraege zur vedischen Lexikographie : > neue Woerter in M. Bloomfields Vedic concordance / von > Aryendra Sharma. -- Muenchen : Kitzinger in Komm., 1959/60. > -- XXI, 366 p. -- (PHMA : Mitteilungen zur idg., > vornehmlich indo-iranischen Wortkunde sowie zur > holothetischen Sprachtheorie ; Heft 5/6) > Orig. Ph.D. thesis, Univ. of Munich, 1939 > > Perhaps some libraries list it under the name of the series (note > that "PHMA" is an uppercase Greek word = Rhema). > > Peter Wyzlic > > -- > Peter Wyzlic > Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > D-53113 Bonn > From n.mohkamsing at WORLDONLINE.NL Mon Dec 11 11:07:44 2000 From: n.mohkamsing at WORLDONLINE.NL (mohkam) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 12:07:44 +0100 Subject: Musical trees and rivers? Message-ID: <161227065142.23782.6788360345613091946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Christian, The points made by Bharata Gupta and Stephen Hodge are certainly intersting, but if Christian 'insists' that his passage represents a "list of what ought to be various types of instrumental music (vaadya)", a Skt-musicological approach is in order. From that point of view, the text seems to be corrupt and some variant readings on the passage would provide more 'space' to make a good guess. So if the passage indeed represents a list of instrumental music (vaadya), then we may expect that four types have been mentioned here. In Skt. musicology the traditional classification of musical instruments, as promulgated by the NATyashAstra, is as follows: (1) lutes (tata); (2) flute (su.shira); (3) ghana (cymbals); and (4) avanaddha (drums). TAla and muraja are representative members of the last two types respectively. That means that the first two types are assumably also represented by instruments denoted as "vanaspati-nady-ucchaTaa-". Thus far, the facts, now, a wild guess. Vanaspati seems to represent the lutes. There are two main classes of lutes (vI.nA), viz. corporal (shArIrI) and wooden (dAravI). The former refers to the human throat where the vocal cords function as a stringed instrument. The wooden lute, on the other hand, are the 'actual' lutes and are of course made of wood [but based on the human voice]. So Vanaspati could be a synonym for DAravI. To check this you should check the traditional dictionaries like Amara, etc. Then we arrive at the crux of the problem: nady-ucchaTaa- Does this compound refer to the flutes, and thereby represent the second type? Your interpretation of ucchaTaa- as "snapping of fingers", makes no sense [at least not to me]. Please throw more light [preferably with the needed variant readings!] Keeping the meanings and connotations of su.shira in mind one should perhaps think of a flow (nadi?) of air/breath (ucchvAsa?) Regards, narender mohkamsing Leiden, The Netherlands From dasa at ONE.NET.AU Mon Dec 11 01:31:32 2000 From: dasa at ONE.NET.AU (Ramadas) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 12:31:32 +1100 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065133.23782.13123275453019969106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Salmon" > I take exception to any suggestion that ideas such be banned because they > are "dangerous." We are free men and women and may speak as we choose. No > actual, genuine "danger" from these ideas has been identified. An objection > that the subject is not appropriate to the subject of Indology might have > standing, but an objection that an idea should be banned because it is > "harmful and dangerous" has none whatever. If, in your opinion, ideas should not be banned because we are free men and women and may speak as we choose, then it would seem that you would find no fault with neo-nazi, white supremacist diatribes. They must indeed be harmless. Yet governments in Europe are fighting strongly to suppress such diatribes because they DO create social tension and upheaval. Just look at the recent decision by French courts to force Yahoo to ban any reference to such things. Being politically correct does not make a person right! ---- Ramadas From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Dec 11 12:22:52 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 13:22:52 +0100 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065147.23782.13434401542583026584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not in a position to ban anything on this list, and I did not speak about any ban. I addressed the participants of the discussion themselves in the belief that they could imagine all its possible conscequences. The thread "Black as Evil" would not be dangerous if it is discussed on the lines of semiotics of colours, etc. But not all of us are anthropologists and specialists in semiotics, and as a result the discussion from time to time turns into a list of bad qualities which one ethnic /racial group have ever ascribed to the people of another ethnic /racial group. I do not see what good such "quotations" could do. Being a resident of East Europe, I am probably more aware than you of all ethnic conflicts of recent years: several of them in Yugoslavia, many in the former Soviet Union: Moldova, Abhazia, Southern Ossetia, North Ossetia, Karabakh, Chechya etc. In so many instances it all started from a "public discussion" of ethnic / racial problems. That is why we have now in Russia a law banning "propaganda of ethnic hatred". Unfortunately, it is almost never used in juridicial practice. But we have a moral taboo for public discussion of such topics as concepts of mental or moral inferiority of Africans /Asians / Westerners / foreigners in general, or of the concept of world-wide Jewish / Masonic conspiracy. Because there would always appear some people to use such discussion just as a pretext for putting in a "quotation"or two... Mayby in the country you live in it is different. As for me, racism is always a poison, even in "quotations". The "Black as Evil" thread seems to go on, so we shall know soon who of us was right. Let us see what will come out of it. Best regards Yaroslav Vassilkov P.S. In my previous posting the date of St.Nicolas' Day (SinterClaas) in the Netherlands was given as "5th Sept.". Surely it must be "5th Dec.". Many thanks to Lynken Ghose who kindly attracted my attention to the mistake. Ya.V. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Salmon" To: Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Black as Evil > > That is why I agree with several list-members who have already said > > before: the topic designated "Black as Evil" is harmful and dangerous. We > > should better drop it for good. Yaroslav Vassilkov > I take exception to any suggestion that ideas such be banned because they > are "dangerous." We are free men and women and may speak as we choose. No > actual, genuine "danger" from these ideas has been identified. An objection > that the subject is not appropriate to the subject of Indology might have > standing, but an objection that an idea should be banned because it is > "harmful and dangerous" has none whatever. > > Nor is discussion of this idea harmful or dangerous even in concept. > Civilization advances when ideas are freely discussed. There may be > occasions when discussion of a particular idea in a particular place and > time may be sufficiently dangerous that speech may be banned (the classic > example is crying "Fire!" in a crowded theater), but this certainly is not > one. The discussion has been carried on in fairly good humor, and none of > us, I trust, are racists. > > David From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 11 15:15:41 2000 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 15:15:41 +0000 Subject: Koh-I-Noor Message-ID: <161227065156.23782.4089876221724847613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In 1999 a parliamentary committee was set up in Britain to consider the return of the famous Elgin Marbles, which are presently in the possession of the British Museum, to Greece. This move has prompted demands for the return of art objects (including the famous Koh-I-Noor diamond given away by Prince Duleep Singh to Queen Victoria in 1849) taken by the British from India. In a recent (Sept 2000) article in the New York based The Diamond Registry "Whose Diamond is it Anyway?" Syeda Sara Abbas writes that the Committe for the Restoration of the Cultural Heritage of India wants to take the matter to the International Court of Justice in The Hague. The Committee is headed by Bhaskar Ghorpade, a practising barrister in London, who earlier successfully brought about the return of an eighth century Pathur Nataraja statue to India. But the British have denied the possibility that the diamond will move out of Britain any time soon. The Queen Mother's spokesman said, according to Abbas, "If anyone wants the Koh-I-Noor, they would ask us directly. So far nothing has come to Clarence House." This week, eighteen Rajya Sabha members in India have done just that--they have sponsored a motion asking Britain that the diamond be returned to India. S.Tilak _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Dec 11 15:53:42 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 16:53:42 +0100 Subject: SV: Science Fiction Question for an Indologist (fwd) Message-ID: <161227065162.23782.9658411732058242869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Klaus Karttunen [SMTP:Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI] skrev 11. desember 2000 16:15: > About robots: > John Robert Gardner: > > So far, I thought that the first science fiction novel ever was > > "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelly. Lately I have been told that this actually > > is not true, there should have been a woman in India who wrote some > > science fiction earlier, some kind of robots doing housework should play a > > role in this. Have you ever heard of this, and if so, can you tell me who > > the author was? > There are some stories about housework robots in Buddhist and Jaina > narrative literature. Usually they were constructed by Yavanas, who also > were skilled in constructing flying machines and other mechanical > wonders. The construction of mechanical wonders (thaumatourgia in Greek, I believe) goes all the way back to antiquity. Oriental princes were very enthousiastic about such devices whereas they were practically unknown in the West during the Middle Ages. The phenomenon is described in art history, I recently saw a monograph on the subject (unfortunately, I don't remember the title of the book, but I can find out). Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From hindu108 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 12 00:55:21 2000 From: hindu108 at YAHOO.COM (Akhilesh Jha) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 16:55:21 -0800 Subject: Koh-I-Noor Message-ID: <161227065177.23782.10979180459692042727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar, If asking for Kohinoor is fine, why should someone object to asking for the land, material and property looted after Hindu temples were destroyed by Muslim invaders in Bharat? Jha --- Bharat Gupt wrote: > Shrinivas Tilak wrote: > > > This week, eighteen Rajya Sabha members in > India have done just > > that--they have sponsored a motion asking Britain > that the diamond be > > returned to India. > > One of the strong campaigners for this has been > Kuldeep Nayar. > I suspect that KN has done this to ensure that > really nothing gets done. > Why else shall he lobby so strongly for a piece of > carbon ? > > Lets face it, is Kohinoor a wonder of Indian art or > culture ? > > Can it be equated with the Elgin marbles... pieces > of miraculous art > from one of the holiest temples of Hellas. > > I wonder why Nayar and his fellow MPs did not > consult the people of India > before starting on this request as early as his > tenure as the Indian HComm. > > Did he and other MP's debate about what are the > cultural > priorites of the cultured Indians in asking things > back from Britain ? Surely such restorations can > be > symbolic and very few, undertaken only for the sake > of international goodwill. > > To ask for Kohinoor, that can be claimed by a few > other nations besides > India, is a devious way promoting ill-will. > > Another example of bureacratic ignorance compounded > by legislative hubris !!! > best, > > Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University > PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA > tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: > bharatgupt at vsnl.com > homepage: http://personal.vsnl.com/bharatgupt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Mon Dec 11 17:09:18 2000 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 17:09:18 +0000 Subject: Declension paradigm of particular words Message-ID: <161227065166.23782.10678114203037071380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology memebers! What dictionary (if any) might be consulted to find out which declension paradigm was actually used in Sanskrit MSS as far as particular words are concerned? For example, word nidrA -- is it following jA paradigm or senA ? My cursory search through library staks yielded no results -- please, help if you can! Best regards, Dmitri. From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Mon Dec 11 15:14:44 2000 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 17:14:44 +0200 Subject: Science Fiction Question for an Indologist (fwd) Message-ID: <161227065158.23782.10444233088920000641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About robots: John Robert Gardner: > So far, I thought that the first science fiction novel ever was > "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelly. Lately I have been told that this actually > is not true, there should have been a woman in India who wrote some > science fiction earlier, some kind of robots doing housework should play a > role in this. Have you ever heard of this, and if so, can you tell me who > the author was? There are some stories about housework robots in Buddhist and Jaina narrative literature. Usually they were constructed by Yavanas, who also were skilled in constructing flying machines and other mechanical wonders. Regards, Klaus -- Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography Institute of Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094 From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Dec 12 01:15:12 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 17:15:12 -0800 Subject: Inscription-enhancement technology Message-ID: <161227065182.23782.3234500619261587359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A research contact at HP Labs has just pointed out new technology in his lab that may be of use to those working on Harappan or other S. Asian inscriptions: http://www.hpl.hp.com/news/2000/oct-dec/3dimaging.html From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 11 19:08:18 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 19:08:18 +0000 Subject: Koh-I-Noor Message-ID: <161227065169.23782.10224025610436969881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >To ask for Kohinoor, that can be claimed by a few other nations besides >India, is a devious way promoting ill-will. > >Another example of bureacratic ignorance compounded by legislative hubris >!!! >best, I think the whole motion is extremely ill advised. In India, when a gift is given, it goes with an explicit "na mama" attached to it. It is simply crude to ask for its return. If an Indian prince gave a diamond in his possession to the British queen, it was a gift. As an inheritor of the rights of the said prince, the modern Indian state has no more right over the diamond. The situation is not at all analogous to that of stolen artefacts like the Pathur Nataraja. I hope someone in Delhi realizes that this idea of asking for the return of the Koh-i-noor is not only stupid, it also goes compltely against the Indian tradition (or for that matter, any civilized idea) of a gift. Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From tawady at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 11 19:11:32 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 19:11:32 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065171.23782.11068480256580752642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:22:52 +0100, Dr Y. Vassilkov wrote: > Being a resident of East Europe, I am probably more aware than you of >all ethnic conflicts of recent years: several of them in Yugoslavia, many in >the former Soviet Union: Moldova, Abhazia, Southern Ossetia, North Ossetia, >Karabakh, Chechya etc. In so many instances it all started from a "public >discussion" of ethnic / racial problems. Dear Dr. Vassikov, Problems in Eastern Europe are fundamental and result from over 70 years of suppression and denial of legitimate national rights of minority groups in the name of ideology. The resultant ethnic conflagrations are not just an out come of "public discussions" of these problems but a reflection of pent up REAL frustrations and aspirations of these people and the violent suppression of it by those who oppose it. In my view public discussions all along would have prevented such carnage. We also had a case of smooth separation of the Czech and Slovak people who were able to separate by publicly discussing about their problems than to kill each other. So you need two to tango! >That is why we have now in Russia a >law banning "propaganda of ethnic hatred". Unfortunately, it is almost never >used in juridicial practice. Fortunately in the US, even hate speech is protected by the constitution, we just try to run them out of business by bancrupting them not banning them :-) >But we have a moral taboo for public discussion >of such topics > as concepts of mental or moral inferiority of Africans >/Asians / Westerners / foreigners in general, or of the concept of >world-wide Jewish / Masonic conspiracy. Because there would always appear >some people to use such discussion just as a pretext for putting in a >"quotation"or two... Sorry for the digression, could'nt help :-( From vikrants99 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 12 03:30:51 2000 From: vikrants99 at YAHOO.COM (Vikrant Shah) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 19:30:51 -0800 Subject: Koh-I-Noor Message-ID: <161227065188.23782.18129996863630130814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yeah, Akhileshji, whatever our Bharat Mata has lost to all the invaders shud be taken back.. can you please suggest few good ways of doing the same including spreading the awareness. Vikrant Shah --- Akhilesh Jha wrote: > Namaskar, > > If asking for Kohinoor is fine, why should > someone object to asking for the land, material > and property looted after Hindu temples were > destroyed by Muslim invaders in Bharat? > > Jha > > --- Bharat Gupt wrote: > > Shrinivas Tilak wrote: > > > > > This week, eighteen Rajya Sabha members in > > India have done just > > > that--they have sponsored a motion asking > Britain > > that the diamond be > > > returned to India. > > > > One of the strong campaigners for this has been > > Kuldeep Nayar. > > I suspect that KN has done this to ensure that > > really nothing gets done. > > Why else shall he lobby so strongly for a piece of > > carbon ? > > > > Lets face it, is Kohinoor a wonder of Indian art > or > > culture ? > > > > Can it be equated with the Elgin marbles... pieces > > of miraculous art > > from one of the holiest temples of Hellas. > > > > I wonder why Nayar and his fellow MPs did not > > consult the people of India > > before starting on this request as early as his > > tenure as the Indian HComm. > > > > Did he and other MP's debate about what are the > > cultural > > priorites of the cultured Indians in asking things > > back from Britain ? Surely such restorations can > > be > > symbolic and very few, undertaken only for the > sake > > of international goodwill. > > > > To ask for Kohinoor, that can be claimed by a few > > other nations besides > > India, is a devious way promoting ill-will. > > > > Another example of bureacratic ignorance > compounded > > by legislative hubris !!! > > best, > > > > Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi > University > > PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA > > tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: > > bharatgupt at vsnl.com > > homepage: http://personal.vsnl.com/bharatgupt > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of > Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From l_s_k at NETZERO.NET Tue Dec 12 00:41:52 2000 From: l_s_k at NETZERO.NET (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 19:41:52 -0500 Subject: Some questions .... Message-ID: <161227065180.23782.10723820090272366051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi all, I got the article at the foll. URL given below in an email from my friend. What interested me was the little excerpts , which is also given below. Who are the genuine historians ? Those who study history based on original works done by original authors ? Or the actual historians themselves, who wrote the books which are used by the people of the successive generations after their deaths ? What is a legend ? When does it become hostile ? Who makes it hostile ? What can be termed as isolated acts ? Will the future historians term the act of the demolition of babri masjid as an isolated incident ? Will they also include the systematic destruction of hindu temples in pakistan and bangladesh as also isolated incidents ? I think in a way all these are isolated incidents. They all did not happen on the same day at the same time. Or is this a new meaning all together ? Or will this be the new meaning, just because a hindu org.'s paper has this foll. article ? - Suresh from - http://www.organiser.org/24sep2000/king.html Most interestingly, she citicises leftist historian Romila Thapar's bid to whitewash Aurangzeb's anti-Hindu fanaticism to paint him a true blue secularist ignoring all his outrages which finished the Mughal empire. Quoting a French journalist (residing in India) Francois Gautier, she ridicule Thapar's bid to run down genuine historians by his motivated verdict that "Aurangzeb's supposed intolerance is little more than a hostile legend based on isolated acts such as the erection of a mosque on a temple site on Benaras". _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Tue Dec 12 02:49:17 2000 From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (hans henrich hock) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 20:49:17 -0600 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065185.23782.12265851093533199394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I strongly support Dominik's view. Hans Henrich Hock >As those of you who attended the Torino WSC will know, the conference >organisers are proposing to publish the conference proceedings as a CDROM, >not a printed book. > >Personally, I am not happy with a CDROM publication for my own paper. It >really needs to be in print or not at all, I think, and for several >reasons. > >It is a fact, perhaps unfortunate, perhaps not, that the system of >academic credit is still narrowly focussed on printed publication. > >There are also all sorts of other, technical reasons why a CDROM is >unsuitable, in my view. It will almost certainly be unreadable in ten or >twenty years, whereas a book will still be no problem. The computer >screen is no medium for serious reading. Will special characters be >elegantly and appropriately handled? And so on. > >There are also all the issues that have been so elegantly raised by >Willard Mccarty in several papers, including: > http://ilex.cc.kcl.ac.uk/wlm/essays/Challenges/ >and > http://www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/wlm/essays/potency0.html >and others on the same website. > >I know, because people have written to me, that I am not alone in being >very unhappy at the idea of CDROM-only proceedings. > >May I start a discussion here about this topic, and if a consensus emerges >that the CDROM is a mistake, then perhaps some of us should send a >petition along to Torino and to the IASS board and request the parties >concerned kindly to consider a change of policy on this issue. > >Best wishes, >Dominik Wujastyk From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Dec 11 20:33:36 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 21:33:36 +0100 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065173.23782.7879726888434798187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raveen Satkurunathan" To: Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:11 PM > Problems in Eastern Europe are fundamental and result from over 70 years of > suppression and denial of legitimate national rights of minority groups in > the name of ideology. The resultant ethnic conflagrations are not just an > out come of "public discussions" of these problems but a reflection of pent > up REAL frustrations and aspirations of these people and the violent > suppression of it by those who oppose it. In my view public discussions all > along would have prevented such carnage. > > We also had a case of smooth separation of the Czech and Slovak people who > were able to separate by publicly discussing about their problems than to > kill each other. So you need two to tango! > You are quite right, problems in Eastern Europe are fundamental, and their roots go even much deeper that the Soviet period - many centuries, probably a millenium back, to the period when the borders of different cultural worlds - Christian and Islamic, Western and Eastern Christian - took distinct shape in such regions as Balkans and Caucausus. Behind the ethnic clashes there are also such factors as the rivalry of ethnically different local groups of bureaucrats and mafia bosses for the oil and other natural resources, transport communications etc. But it was not so easy to make common people fight with their neighbours for the aims of such kind - and then the time came for "patriotic" intellectuals of all these nations who started "public discussions" with the neighbours. The topics were usual: 1. autochtonism, i.e. "we and nobody else lived on this territory since time immemorial", and 2. ethnic superiority. By the way, it is too an ideology, and in some aspects it is much worse even than the Soviet ideology which it had replaced (this old ideology was at least "internationalistic"). Sorry, I understand this is not an Indological topic. I only felt that I had to answer. Best regards Yaroslav Vassilkov From hindu108 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 12 05:45:33 2000 From: hindu108 at YAHOO.COM (Akhilesh Jha) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 21:45:33 -0800 Subject: Koh-I-Noor Message-ID: <161227065193.23782.4778773753666059289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar Vikrantji, It is not that I have a ready solution but IMO there are certain steps that must be followed. 1. Recognition of the fact Hindu temples were destroyed, descrated and plundered on a very systematic and large scale by invaders, mainly muslims. Before we set out to recover what was looted from us we must not have any doubt whether looting and plundering itself was committed. We still have Congress, communists and pseudo- secularists denying this very fact. 2. We need to spread this fact among masses of Bharat so that they know the fact and become aware enough to demand justice, right and property. Once the people rise up for truth, rest would follow. 3. We should always watch out for those who's agenda is to white wash history by concealing and/or distorting the fact. We must expose such people and their agenda. Regards. Jha --- Vikrant Shah wrote: > Yeah, Akhileshji, whatever our Bharat Mata has lost > to > all the invaders shud be taken back.. > can you please suggest few good ways of doing the > same > including spreading the awareness. > > Vikrant Shah > > > --- Akhilesh Jha wrote: > > Namaskar, > > > > If asking for Kohinoor is fine, why should > > someone object to asking for the land, material > > and property looted after Hindu temples were > > destroyed by Muslim invaders in Bharat? > > > > Jha > > > > --- Bharat Gupt wrote: > > > Shrinivas Tilak wrote: > > > > > > > This week, eighteen Rajya Sabha members in > > > India have done just > > > > that--they have sponsored a motion asking > > Britain > > > that the diamond be > > > > returned to India. > > > > > > One of the strong campaigners for this has been > > > Kuldeep Nayar. > > > I suspect that KN has done this to ensure that > > > really nothing gets done. > > > Why else shall he lobby so strongly for a piece > of > > > carbon ? > > > > > > Lets face it, is Kohinoor a wonder of Indian art > > or > > > culture ? > > > > > > Can it be equated with the Elgin marbles... > pieces > > > of miraculous art > > > from one of the holiest temples of Hellas. > > > > > > I wonder why Nayar and his fellow MPs did not > > > consult the people of India > > > before starting on this request as early as his > > > tenure as the Indian HComm. > > > > > > Did he and other MP's debate about what are the > > > cultural > > > priorites of the cultured Indians in asking > things > > > back from Britain ? Surely such restorations > can > > > be > > > symbolic and very few, undertaken only for the > > sake > > > of international goodwill. > > > > > > To ask for Kohinoor, that can be claimed by a > few > > > other nations besides > > > India, is a devious way promoting ill-will. > > > > > > Another example of bureacratic ignorance > > compounded > > > by legislative hubris !!! > > > best, > > > > > > Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi > > University > > > PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA > > > tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: > > > bharatgupt at vsnl.com > > > homepage: http://personal.vsnl.com/bharatgupt > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of > > Products. > > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of > Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 11 21:55:11 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 21:55:11 +0000 Subject: Musical trees and rivers? Message-ID: <161227065154.23782.17897012659594329278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> mohkam wrote: > Dear Christian, > The points made by Bharata Gupta and Stephen Hodge are certainly > intersting, but if Christian 'insists' that his passage represents a "list > of what ought to be various types of instrumental music (vaadya)", a > Skt-musicological approach is in order. No music related shastra, as far as I can remember, uses ' vanaspati' as a synonym for daaravii, the harp. Unless we regard this (Christian's material) as the only instance. For a fair guess to ammendations it is necessary that the whole passage with its context is revealed with the identity of the text and its likely date. After all, there is a whole history of the change in meaning for the same musical terms from the Natyasastra to Pt. Bhatkhande and the even later interpreters like Acharya Brhaspati, a period of more than two thousand years. Then, there is a history of musical terms used in yogic and philosphophic context. Lexicons like Amar onwards are all a part of this development. Lexicons take words from shastras not the other way round. May be Christian does not want to share more at this moment. Bhavatu. best, Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Tue Dec 12 05:15:59 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 23:15:59 -0600 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM Message-ID: <161227065190.23782.4718040511376947391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are several issues here there are being somewhat ignored. 1) A single CD-ROM weighing only a few ounces can contain the information of several hundred books (100's of thousands of pages), weighing many hundreds of pounds and occupying huge amount of space. This adds unprecedented mobility to knowledge. When the US Navy converted from paper service manuals to CD-ROM's, they not only dramatically shortened the repair cycle due to faster access, but actually saved hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in fuel cost for not having to carry all those books around on ships!!! 2) With more than a billion CD-ROM's on the market, it is extremely unlikely that the standard will "suddenly" disappear. If new devices stop reading CD-ROM's, which is unlikely, then it is quite easy to copy over to new standard. Today, all new devices are backward compatible. 3) It is dramatically easier to copy a CD-ROM than a printed book and there is NO loss if done correctly. 4) "permanence" of books is quite an amusing fable if you have ever bought a "newly" printed copy of many Indian books. Printed books are copied over and over photographically when more copies are needed. Each time the quality gets substantially worse, eventually getting almost unreadable, as are many Sanskrit books. CD-ROM's can be copied indefinitely with zero loss. In may cases, even a newly printed book has many areas that are unreadable due to poor printing. This problem does not exist on CD-ROM's. 5) Printed books are virtually "unsearchable," which dramatically reduces their usefulness. 6) When people start to become more sophisticated, CD-ROM's will allow value added knowledge that is just not possible with printed books. If we old people are successful at resisting change to newer technology, the loss could be immeasurable. Instead we should start using the inherent capabilities of CD-ROM based knowledge, instead of simply using it to replace the comparatively lower usefulness of a printed book. 7) As far as not getting academic credit for CD-ROM published journal articles, compared to books, that must be a characteristic of Humanistic disciplines, because in other areas of knowledge, CD-ROM publication is either identical, or more respected. If humanities professors get together and ban CD-ROM publications, then they will only hurt the progress of their disciplines and soon loose the level of respect they still have. 8) In some cases, readability and fonts are still a problem, but there are current solutions and better ones on the way. In many cases readability can already be far superior on CD-ROM's with proper software, in comparison to MANY printed texts. It is better to solve the problems than to let the problems restrict our access to knowledge! There is huge difference between effective study of ancient civilization, and BECOMING "ancient" in the study of civilization!! There is certainly still a place for printed books and there always will be. But we should not lose the incredible potential for other means of communication that is inherent in CD-ROM!!!!!!!!!!!! sincerely, Claude Setzer ----- Original Message ----- From: "hans henrich hock" To: Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:49 PM Subject: Re: publication of IASS papers on CDROM > I strongly support Dominik's view. > From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Tue Dec 12 05:49:22 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 23:49:22 -0600 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM Message-ID: <161227065195.23782.12116278309451055081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "hans henrich hock" To: Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:49 PM Subject: Re: publication of IASS papers on CDROM > I strongly support Dominik's view. > > Hans Henrich Hock What if there had been well made CD-ROM's in Vedic Times?????????? Many of the people on this list would have to undergo retraining as teachers rather than debators/arguers!! There would be no use at all for several thousands of the argumentative posts made in recent years! And think of all the lost shAkhAs we would know about! Claude Setzer From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Dec 12 00:09:06 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 00:09:06 +0000 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM Message-ID: <161227065175.23782.7837940688497066292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As those of you who attended the Torino WSC will know, the conference organisers are proposing to publish the conference proceedings as a CDROM, not a printed book. Personally, I am not happy with a CDROM publication for my own paper. It really needs to be in print or not at all, I think, and for several reasons. It is a fact, perhaps unfortunate, perhaps not, that the system of academic credit is still narrowly focussed on printed publication. There are also all sorts of other, technical reasons why a CDROM is unsuitable, in my view. It will almost certainly be unreadable in ten or twenty years, whereas a book will still be no problem. The computer screen is no medium for serious reading. Will special characters be elegantly and appropriately handled? And so on. There are also all the issues that have been so elegantly raised by Willard Mccarty in several papers, including: http://ilex.cc.kcl.ac.uk/wlm/essays/Challenges/ and http://www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/wlm/essays/potency0.html and others on the same website. I know, because people have written to me, that I am not alone in being very unhappy at the idea of CDROM-only proceedings. May I start a discussion here about this topic, and if a consensus emerges that the CDROM is a mistake, then perhaps some of us should send a petition along to Torino and to the IASS board and request the parties concerned kindly to consider a change of policy on this issue. Best wishes, Dominik Wujastyk From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Dec 12 01:33:46 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 01:33:46 +0000 Subject: Koh-I-Noor Message-ID: <161227065168.23782.8307181526361826444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shrinivas Tilak wrote: > This week, eighteen Rajya Sabha members in India have done just > that--they have sponsored a motion asking Britain that the diamond be > returned to India. One of the strong campaigners for this has been Kuldeep Nayar. I suspect that KN has done this to ensure that really nothing gets done. Why else shall he lobby so strongly for a piece of carbon ? Lets face it, is Kohinoor a wonder of Indian art or culture ? Can it be equated with the Elgin marbles... pieces of miraculous art from one of the holiest temples of Hellas. I wonder why Nayar and his fellow MPs did not consult the people of India before starting on this request as early as his tenure as the Indian HComm. Did he and other MP's debate about what are the cultural priorites of the cultured Indians in asking things back from Britain ? Surely such restorations can be symbolic and very few, undertaken only for the sake of international goodwill. To ask for Kohinoor, that can be claimed by a few other nations besides India, is a devious way promoting ill-will. Another example of bureacratic ignorance compounded by legislative hubris !!! best, Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com homepage: http://personal.vsnl.com/bharatgupt From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 12 07:01:45 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 07:01:45 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065197.23782.10818430706764339096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Dr Y. Vassilkov" wrote: >then the time came for "patriotic" intellectuals of all these nations who >started "public discussions" with the neighbours. The topics were usual: 1. >autochtonism, i.e. "we and nobody else lived on this territory since time >immemorial", and 2. ethnic superiority. By the way, it is too an Dr. Vassilkov, you apologized for a non-Indological topic. In the context of certain recent trends, I think it is extremely appropriate, or else, in a few years, there will be nothing remaining that is Indo-, for its -logy to have any relevance. I don't particularly like the term Balkanization, but that is what some people want to see happen to India. If you recollect, a number of posts on this list have pointed the attention of its members to a website called dalitstan.org, apparently dedicated to the cause of the "Black Untouchable" in India, but which seems to champion the cause of all sorts of imaginary -stans, from Mughalstan to Dravidstan. Well, if one visits http://rvl4.ecn.purdue.edu/~cromwell/lt/netusers.html, and scrolls down to the entry on India, one would get an idea of what political agenda are involved. At the very least, one will learn that what dalitstan.org claims to have been said by Dr. B. R. Ambedkar was not said by Ambedkar at all. Meanwhile, we have this sort of highly polarized white "Aryan" vs. black "Dravidian" pseudo-scholarly discussion going on here. I think people interested in scholarship should keep themselves informed about potential non-scholarly (mis)uses of their work. I would certainly love to read good studies of Dravidian texts and hope that interest in that area increases. However, I don't think that the cause of Dravidian studies is helped by those who think that the root cause of all problems lie among the "Vedic Aryans". And that is my basic objection to the way this thread has developed. Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 12 15:55:23 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 07:55:23 -0800 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM Message-ID: <161227065209.23782.4921971117426133194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Besides saving trees, in Engineering at least the trend is towards CD-ROM publications. The reader who may be interested in an article or parts there of, usually prints them out on paper, and reads them. Not many reads the entire proceedings of a conference. --- Claude Setzer wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hans henrich hock" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:49 PM > Subject: Re: publication of IASS papers on CDROM > > > > I strongly support Dominik's view. > > > > Hans Henrich Hock > > What if there had been well made CD-ROM's in Vedic Times?????????? > > Many of the people on this list would have to undergo retraining as teachers > rather than debators/arguers!! > > There would be no use at all for several thousands of the argumentative > posts made in recent years! > > And think of all the lost shAkhAs we would know about! > > Claude Setzer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From jage at LOC.GOV Tue Dec 12 13:59:51 2000 From: jage at LOC.GOV (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 08:59:51 -0500 Subject: Koh-I-Noor In-Reply-To: <20001212005521.68291.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065204.23782.16542209532124264854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Akhilesh Jha wrote: > Namaskar, > > If asking for Kohinoor is fine, why should > someone object to asking for the land, material > and property looted after Hindu temples were > destroyed by Muslim invaders in Bharat? > > Jha > > Tuesday, December 12, 2000 And if no one obejcts to that, what about mosques destroyed by Hindus? Isn't it a two edged sword? Perhaps we stray too far into politics. Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. Phone: 202 707-9612; Fax: 202 707-0955; US mail: I.T.S. Dev.Gp.4, Library of Congress, 101 Independence Ave. SE, Washington, D.C. 20540-9334 U.S.A. From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Tue Dec 12 15:34:23 2000 From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 09:34:23 -0600 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM In-Reply-To: <3A363B72.C6674DCB@anthosimprint.com> Message-ID: <161227065206.23782.17764067556211153060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps CD-ROMs are NORMED; but the feeling I get from the colleagues in Italy is that either the CD-ROM or their software is not normed to accommodate articles produced on Mac platforms. As far as I can tell, Macs are widely used by Indologists of a certain generation, simply because when they started, the special fonts needed for Indological work were infinitely more readily available on the Mac--and who wants to convert large numbers of heavily formatted documents to work on a platform or with a "norm" that does not recognize these fonts? I believe if these concerns were meaningfully addressed (and perhaps they have been somewhere, and I'm just uninformed?), my resistance would be reduced considerably. Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock >Dear computer experts, >as an indologist and software engineer, may I correct a few technical >points that have come up? >(1) CD-ROMs are NORMED. There is an international norm (ISO-9660) which >ensures exactly this: that CD-ROMs can be read in future, as long as >mankind has access to its norms. Please remember that this is something >extremely central and reliable. Without ISO norms, you would not be able >to go to your supermarket and get food. You would not be able to drive a >car. You would not be able to get clothes. In other words: as long as >you get food and clothes, mankind has access to ISO norms and mankind >can read CD-ROMs. >(2) CD-ROMs have already lasted almost twenty years. The reason why you >may not be aware of that is because in the beginning, CD-ROM players and >media were fiendishly expensive. Nowadays, there are hundreds of >millions of computers and hundreds of millions of other CD readers all >over the world, and the cookies cost roughly 15 US cents to manufacture. >CD-ROM drives cost roughly 10 US$ to manufacture. >(3) CD-ROMs are very long-lasting. They are, in fact, the most >long-lasting medium we have. Some manufacturers now have a 200-year life >span estimate. As opposed to the thirty-year life-span in the beginning >of the technology, and fifty years or less of microfilm. >(4) CD-ROMs can be copied over to whatever new media mankind will invent >-- and norm. > >Having said that, there is still reason for your particular IASS >publication to be done on paper... >Which is, mainly, >(a) academic credit, >(b) the fact that paper has obvious advantages, too. >One of the drawbacks is that paper publishing is extremely expensive. >Many times more than CD-ROM. > >As your own averse reactions to CD-ROMs have shown, CD-ROM promoters are >ahead of their time even now. >It makes sense to publish on paper AND CD-ROM, because both media have >advantages that COMPLEMENT each other very well: CD-ROMs last very long >and are intelligent search and work tools, paper is traditionally >accepted, convenient for browsing and offline reading, and it offers >academic credit. >Wouldn't it therefore make sense for you to ask the IASS for both, i.e. >paper AND CD-ROM publishing? >I understand that paper publishing is very expensive, but if CD-ROM >publishing offers no academic credit, the IASS is not doing its >contributors a favour going only that way. > >Anyway, please refrain from emotional attacks on each other because of >the CD-ROM issue. The world has already decided to go digital, and you >are not going to stop it. >On this jolly note, >all the best, >yours, >Gunthard Mueller > >gm at e-ternals.com From vikrants99 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 12 18:18:14 2000 From: vikrants99 at YAHOO.COM (Vikrant Shah) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 10:18:14 -0800 Subject: recent messages Message-ID: <161227065218.23782.15935027788225845464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sir, You are absolutely right.. the 2nd reason is more appropriate.. The point is not to make scapegoats for things which their forefathers (invaders) have done.. But just to prevent history from being forgotten totally and thus not allowing it to repeat in future.. How many of our kids are taught the results of partition.. I guess, in couple of generations it will be forgotten that their was a partition based on 2-nation theory, based on communal identity a part of the body of our Mother India was given away.. thus paving a way for another partition.. And yeah, if the views of this generation (including the converts) are different from their forefathers (invaders), we should not really worry about the future.. But yeah, if their views remain the same.. outlook to life remain the same.. mentality remain the same.. jehadi ideology remain the same.. "respect" in their minds for other religions remain the same.. "respect" for "kafirs" remain the same.. (in)tolerance remain the same.. then we might have to make sure that "we dont remain the same".. we should be more united and all set to counter all threats.. We neednot attack any other dharma/religion/ideology/country but yeah we should have enough guts to atleast defend our own. Gandhiji himself wished that if missionaries in India where for humanitarian support he would welcome them.. but if they are here for the sake of conversions.. he would want them to leave.. Gandhiji had very well understood that this country will prosper much more with its own culture.. So any threat to our culture should be very well dealt with.. Regards Vikrant Washington DC --- Lynken Ghose wrote: > Dear Indology members: > > There have been a few recent postings calling for > the redressing of > grievances for the Muslim invasions of India. > Admittedly, these invasions > were tragic, and, from what I have read, did wreak > destruction. However, I > am not sure how constructive it is to dwell on > something that happened so > long ago, or, to stir up anger against an entire > group of people, making > them the scapegoats for something that happened > before they were even born. > > If this is the point of such messages, then I am > against them. > However, if the point of the messages is just to try > to avoid whitewashing > history, then I am for them. > > Lynken Ghose > Iowa State University > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From kupferka at UNI-FREIBURG.DE Tue Dec 12 09:29:40 2000 From: kupferka at UNI-FREIBURG.DE (Katharina Kupfer) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 10:29:40 +0100 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM Message-ID: <161227065200.23782.5430320517550798912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I support the view of Dominik Wujastyk, that the disadvantages of publishing on a CDROM are more (and more serious) than e.g. the advantage of make copies from it. All texts, which are written in older systems (MSDOS, Windows3.1 to 98) one has to convert if one would like to publish them on the Web in a Unicode format, which the newest standard at the moment. It takes so much of time! On the other hand, if you use an ASCII or RTF-format you will not have the problem of converting the file to the same extend. But one has still the problem, that the search engine will not work anymore. This problem I had with TLG-CDROM, which is coded in ASCII but has a search enginge for Windows3.1. A last point: The format of drives changes, too. If you remember the older formats of floppy disks, which are now replased by CDROMs. I would assume that CDROMs will be outdated and replaced by an other medium within the next 6 or 7 years. Regards, Katharina Kupfer -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Katharina Kupfer kupferka at uni-freiburg.de Sprachwissenschaftliches Seminar k.kupfer at em.uni-frankfurt.de Albert-Ludwigs-Universitaet Freiburg Werthmannpl. 3 Phone: +49/761/203-3167 D-79085 Freiburg Fax: +49/761/203-3203 http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/kupfer.htm http://www.uni-freiburg.de/indogerm/kupfer.htm * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 12 16:56:17 2000 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 11:56:17 -0500 Subject: recent messages Message-ID: <161227065211.23782.1543483623150147234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology members: There have been a few recent postings calling for the redressing of grievances for the Muslim invasions of India. Admittedly, these invasions were tragic, and, from what I have read, did wreak destruction. However, I am not sure how constructive it is to dwell on something that happened so long ago, or, to stir up anger against an entire group of people, making them the scapegoats for something that happened before they were even born. If this is the point of such messages, then I am against them. However, if the point of the messages is just to try to avoid whitewashing history, then I am for them. Lynken Ghose Iowa State University _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Tue Dec 12 14:51:31 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 15:51:31 +0100 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM Message-ID: <161227065202.23782.762100978338013753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear computer experts, as an indologist and software engineer, may I correct a few technical points that have come up? (1) CD-ROMs are NORMED. There is an international norm (ISO-9660) which ensures exactly this: that CD-ROMs can be read in future, as long as mankind has access to its norms. Please remember that this is something extremely central and reliable. Without ISO norms, you would not be able to go to your supermarket and get food. You would not be able to drive a car. You would not be able to get clothes. In other words: as long as you get food and clothes, mankind has access to ISO norms and mankind can read CD-ROMs. (2) CD-ROMs have already lasted almost twenty years. The reason why you may not be aware of that is because in the beginning, CD-ROM players and media were fiendishly expensive. Nowadays, there are hundreds of millions of computers and hundreds of millions of other CD readers all over the world, and the cookies cost roughly 15 US cents to manufacture. CD-ROM drives cost roughly 10 US$ to manufacture. (3) CD-ROMs are very long-lasting. They are, in fact, the most long-lasting medium we have. Some manufacturers now have a 200-year life span estimate. As opposed to the thirty-year life-span in the beginning of the technology, and fifty years or less of microfilm. (4) CD-ROMs can be copied over to whatever new media mankind will invent -- and norm. Having said that, there is still reason for your particular IASS publication to be done on paper... Which is, mainly, (a) academic credit, (b) the fact that paper has obvious advantages, too. One of the drawbacks is that paper publishing is extremely expensive. Many times more than CD-ROM. As your own averse reactions to CD-ROMs have shown, CD-ROM promoters are ahead of their time even now. It makes sense to publish on paper AND CD-ROM, because both media have advantages that COMPLEMENT each other very well: CD-ROMs last very long and are intelligent search and work tools, paper is traditionally accepted, convenient for browsing and offline reading, and it offers academic credit. Wouldn't it therefore make sense for you to ask the IASS for both, i.e. paper AND CD-ROM publishing? I understand that paper publishing is very expensive, but if CD-ROM publishing offers no academic credit, the IASS is not doing its contributors a favour going only that way. Anyway, please refrain from emotional attacks on each other because of the CD-ROM issue. The world has already decided to go digital, and you are not going to stop it. On this jolly note, all the best, yours, Gunthard Mueller gm at e-ternals.com From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 12 22:32:57 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 16:32:57 -0600 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065223.23782.16076885410421763387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Vidyasankar wrote: >Meanwhile, we have this sort of highly polarized white "Aryan" >vs. black "Dravidian" pseudo-scholarly discussion going on here. >I think people interested in scholarship should keep themselves >informed about potential non-scholarly (mis)uses of their work. > While I sympathise and agree with Dr.Vassilkov's concern about the ridiculous black/white nonsensical emails. It must be pointed Indians have been subjected to this kind of nonsense for a long long time. Christian fundamentalists use these kinds of arguments in their missionary literature. Recently, It was pointed out on another list a few weeks ago that the marxist academic Panikkar who has been on a speaking tour of US universities has been stating that the Aryans had invaded and subjugated the Dravidians. The Aryans were uppercaste etc etc... So I would second Vidyasankar's call that scholars should keep themselves informed about abuses of their work. Regards, Subrahmanya _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Dec 12 17:21:42 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 18:21:42 +0100 Subject: SV: recent messages Message-ID: <161227065213.23782.10701551991737446534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lynken Ghose [SMTP:lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 12. desember 2000 17:56: > There have been a few recent postings calling for the redressing of > grievances for the Muslim invasions of India. Admittedly, these invasions > were tragic, and, from what I have read, did wreak destruction. However, I > am not sure how constructive it is to dwell on something that happened so > long ago, or, to stir up anger against an entire group of people, making > them the scapegoats for something that happened before they were even born. > > If this is the point of such messages, then I am against them. > However, if the point of the messages is just to try to avoid whitewashing > history, then I am for them. Much of the point of "whitewashing" history, both in India and in the West, is to avoid that irresponsible people use historical information to stir up trouble in society and increase violence. There are more than enough examples of this, and responsible politicians sometimes try to manipulate history teaching in order to avoid stirring up past dirt and get society going in a productive direction. However, historians have a duty to speak the truth, and their reputation will suffer if they compromise. In practice, most of the "real" historical discussion in democratic societies takes place in heavy-duty academic publications far too dry for the general public and therefore remains within the educated elite, which correctly or not is assumed to behave responsibly. The general public is served a sugar-coated version of history with nice colour pictures, and easy-to-grasp narratives. As long as these narratives are held in a non-inflammatory tone, not much evil can happen. But this is the arena which the demagogue and trouble-maker will chose when history is used as a political tool. None of the serious academic works I have read on Indian history try to hide the fact that Muslim conquerors did very unacceptable things. But using such information as a tool in today's politics is not only morally dubious, it is unspeakably stupid and can in the long run only hurt the Indian population at large, Hindus, Christians as well as Muslims. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Tue Dec 12 17:23:57 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 18:23:57 +0100 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM Message-ID: <161227065216.23782.8492402949539276694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, there-- let me try to reduce your resistance! We are also Mac users over here, fanatical ones even! We are running Windows, Mac, Unix, Novell, and of all those we really prefer the Mac. You have addressed a range of issues. (1) CD-ROMs on the Mac The Mac can read ISO-9660 CD-ROMs perfectly. We even produce our ISO-9660 CDs on the Mac. In fact, most professional CD publishers do that, too. Simply the best CD recording program is a Mac package called Toast, by Adaptec (originally by a German company called Astarte, then the product was taken over by Adaptec), and the best one for creating audio CDs is also a Mac packaged called "Jam", from the same company. It's true that there is also a special Mac CD-ROM format, which only runs on Macs. (Actually it's true you can make it work under Windows, but it requires a special plug-in which few people have.) But fortunately the Mac is incredibly compatible with all relevant standards and norms, including all media carrier norms, so there is no problem there, and Apple knows well that if they want to be taken seriously they need to be compatible. As a rule, the Mac generally supports whatever Windows and UNIX support, plus the Mac version of the same. (2) Fonts and file formats across platforms (2.1) Adobe Acrobat (PDF files) PDF files include everything, including fonts. So no matter whether you produced it on the Mac with Mac fonts--once it's a PDF file you can use that file perfectly (including fonts) on Windows and UNIX. You can even use it on the web right away. The Acrobat reader software is free of charge and available for all relevant platforms. This format is a derivative of PostScript, which is an indispensable part of many operating systems, so this technology is safe and here to stay. The Acrobat writer software is widely available and low-cost. Probably your institute already has a license, I would guess. (2.2) Font solution, if for some reason you don't like PDF: Fortunately, the Apple font standard (TrueType) was accepted by most operating system vendors, including Microsoft, Sun, etc., so you can use TrueType fonts across platforms. All you need to do is to convert the file format and the character mapping. There are utilities for that. We use a professional package from Macromedia for that, called Fontographer, which we also use to create fonts (We have produced Devanagari, Gurmukhi fonts for Intel machines for over a decade). There are also shareware packages that do that conversion for you, but they are a bit cumbersome to use. It pays to get Fontographer. The same is true for Adobe Postscript fonts (ATM, Adobe Type Manager). There are three sub-types. All of them are cross-platform, all of them can be converted to and fro using Fontographer. Exactly same situation as with TrueType. (2.3) Other file formats / software packages Fortunately, we have file format norms now, too. Good CD-ROMs stick with these. The future in documentation is the SGML norm, the superset of HTML and XML. The best package to create fully cross-platform SGML files is Adobe FrameMaker SGML. Runs on Windows, Mac, UNIX. Imports virtually all relevant file formats from all three operating system worlds, even un-normed ones, and exports SGML into a huge number of such formats, too. Generates HTML and XML versions for direct use in the Internet. Has no problem with Unicode. So we use FrameMaker also as a "switchboard" packages to migrate data to and fro exotic file formats. A user-friendly CD-ROM should contain the following: (1) SGML, for the future. (2) A Windows format, such as MS Word 97 (compatible with Word 2000 etc.) (3) A Mac format, such as Mac Word 4 (compatible with the older Mac Word versions, before the Macs started supported the MS Word 97 format) (4) A good UNIX format (but that has become less difficult since the overpowering success of StarOffice in the UNIX area. StarOffice reads and writes common Windows formats, such as MS Word 97). (5) It's also always a good idea to include an HTML version, because most people have Internet access, so they have HTML browsers. I admit creating good CD-ROMs is an artform in itself, just like doing good web sites, and not all CD-ROMs are done well. If you do them well, they are a great tool, though. Anyway, I hope I have addressed your concerns. If you need a bit of technical help here and there, you can mail me off the list, too. I'm an overworked kind of guy, but if I can help I'll try. Yours, Gunthard Mueller gm at e-ternals.com Hans Henrich Hock wrote: > Perhaps CD-ROMs are NORMED; but the feeling I get from the colleagues > in Italy is that either the CD-ROM or their software is not normed to > accommodate articles produced on Mac platforms. As far as I can > tell, Macs are widely used by Indologists of a certain generation, > simply because when they started, the special fonts needed for > Indological work were infinitely more readily available on the > Mac--and who wants to convert large numbers of heavily formatted > documents to work on a platform or with a "norm" that does not > recognize these fonts? I believe if these concerns were meaningfully > addressed (and perhaps they have been somewhere, and I'm just > uninformed?), my resistance would be reduced considerably. > > Cheers, > > Hans Henrich Hock > > >Dear computer experts, > >as an indologist and software engineer, may I correct a few technical > >points that have come up? > >(1) CD-ROMs are NORMED. There is an international norm (ISO-9660) which > >ensures exactly this: that CD-ROMs can be read in future, as long as > >mankind has access to its norms. Please remember that this is something > >extremely central and reliable. Without ISO norms, you would not be able > >to go to your supermarket and get food. You would not be able to drive a > >car. You would not be able to get clothes. In other words: as long as > >you get food and clothes, mankind has access to ISO norms and mankind > >can read CD-ROMs. > >(2) CD-ROMs have already lasted almost twenty years. The reason why you > >may not be aware of that is because in the beginning, CD-ROM players and > >media were fiendishly expensive. Nowadays, there are hundreds of > >millions of computers and hundreds of millions of other CD readers all > >over the world, and the cookies cost roughly 15 US cents to manufacture. > >CD-ROM drives cost roughly 10 US$ to manufacture. > >(3) CD-ROMs are very long-lasting. They are, in fact, the most > >long-lasting medium we have. Some manufacturers now have a 200-year life > >span estimate. As opposed to the thirty-year life-span in the beginning > >of the technology, and fifty years or less of microfilm. > >(4) CD-ROMs can be copied over to whatever new media mankind will invent > >-- and norm. > > > >Having said that, there is still reason for your particular IASS > >publication to be done on paper... > >Which is, mainly, > >(a) academic credit, > >(b) the fact that paper has obvious advantages, too. > >One of the drawbacks is that paper publishing is extremely expensive. > >Many times more than CD-ROM. > > > >As your own averse reactions to CD-ROMs have shown, CD-ROM promoters are > >ahead of their time even now. > >It makes sense to publish on paper AND CD-ROM, because both media have > >advantages that COMPLEMENT each other very well: CD-ROMs last very long > >and are intelligent search and work tools, paper is traditionally > >accepted, convenient for browsing and offline reading, and it offers > >academic credit. > >Wouldn't it therefore make sense for you to ask the IASS for both, i.e. > >paper AND CD-ROM publishing? > >I understand that paper publishing is very expensive, but if CD-ROM > >publishing offers no academic credit, the IASS is not doing its > >contributors a favour going only that way. > > > >Anyway, please refrain from emotional attacks on each other because of > >the CD-ROM issue. The world has already decided to go digital, and you > >are not going to stop it. > >On this jolly note, > >all the best, > >yours, > >Gunthard Mueller > > > >gm at e-ternals.com From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 00:05:23 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 19:05:23 -0500 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065226.23782.12870713235734943317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members Brain storming is a good idea, and brings out a wealth of informaion. But I believe if all active members have contributed at least once, further discussions can be need based. Let us not look back who started it. Probably it was started in good faith. Is any one writing a paper on the issue? Has the question been answered by the list satisfactorily? Is the paper ready? Questions to avoid: Is any further information needed (oh no)? What are the conclusions (no please!). regards Bhadraiah _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Tue Dec 12 19:56:41 2000 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 19:56:41 +0000 Subject: recent messages Message-ID: <161227065221.23782.2860851094226902040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When the "establishment" is caught out in a lie about history, it serves to discredit the establishment. The Whitewash of history feeds into paranoia about the "real" intentions of the establishment. Demolition of the sanitized history becomes another method of disestablishment. In my opinion, in the context of India : 1. School textbooks should avoid feeding existing prejudices. Some amount of whitewashing there is acceptable. 2. Whitewashing should not extend to anything beyond high school. 3. The real issue that confronts us, e.g., from a Babri Masjid situation is how do Hindus and Muslims want to deal with each other TODAY. Making it into a historical argument (e.g., attempting to prove that Babur was "secular" or Ayodhya was somewhere else) simply obscures the issue. 4. Honesty will favor the saner side (establishment versus mob) in these battles. Best regards, -Arun Gupta From masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 00:58:15 2000 From: masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM (Rustam Masalewala) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 19:58:15 -0500 Subject: Learning from history (Re: recent messages) Message-ID: <161227065228.23782.4687071086513535105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree that no group should be made a scapegoat. Certainly not in India where acceptance is the very foundation of the nation. But let us ask this: 1. Is it OK for a group to be fearful, on the basis of history? 2. Does history repeat itself? 3. To what extent a tolerant nation should accept a group, which, once it is powerful enough, will enforce an intolerant ideology? For example, should a nation allow a Marxist group to flourish, even though that group is committed to eventual imposition of a Marxist dictatorship? Lynken wrote: >Admittedly, these invasions were tragic, and, from what I have read, did >wreak destruction. However, Iam not sure how constructive it is to dwell on >something that >happened so long ago, How long ago is "so long ago"? Is Jewish people dwelling on holocaust OK? Let us go back. Let us say the killing of Zoroastrian priesthood and suppression of Zoroastrianism was too long ago. Let us assume that razing of libraries, taking of daughters and sons of infidels in India into slavery was too long ago (Is it still legal according to the code?). Let us assume that when the infidels of Java had to flee to distant hills and islands, was too long ago. In the region that is now Bangladesh, Hindus became a minority only within the last century or so. When Hindus had to flee from there and from West Pakistan, that too was too long ago. Kashmiri Pandits had to flee because they are the agents of an oppressive government. Let us disregard them. How about people being taken into slavery in Sudan right now? How about the fanatics born and raised in England today? Can Hindus assume that they will be safe in what is India today (OK, let us talk about India minus Kashmir minus Malappuram minus some regions of Assam). Can some of us with a sense of history, tell the Hindus why they shouldn't be paranoid? They are going to be OK for a few centuries, aren't they? They wouldn't have to flee some day, would they? Rustam ... _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From hindu108 at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 13 04:20:11 2000 From: hindu108 at YAHOO.COM (Akhilesh Jha) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 20:20:11 -0800 Subject: Koh-I-Noor Message-ID: <161227065239.23782.6663157057739333997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "James E. Agenbroad" wrote: > On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Akhilesh Jha wrote: > > > Namaskar, > > > > If asking for Kohinoor is fine, why should > > someone object to asking for the land, material > > and property looted after Hindu temples were > > destroyed by Muslim invaders in Bharat? > > > > Jha > > > > > Tuesday, > December 12, 2000 > And if no one obejcts to that, what about mosques > destroyed by Hindus? Namaskar, The only thing about "mosques destroyed by Hindus" is that there is no such mosques. Unlike Islam, and Christianity, Hindu scriptures don't call for destruction of religious symbols, prayer places and altars of other religions. What proof do you have for "mosques destroyed by Hindus?" > Isn't it a two edged sword? Truth is indeed two edged sword. We shouldn't lie about others because we are not willing to face truth about ourselves. > Perhaps we stray too far into politics. Politics begins when instead of addressing the the point of asking for the land, material and property looted after Hindu temples were destroyed by Muslim invaders in Bharat, one brings up the myth of "mosques destroyed by Hindus?" Regards. Jha > > Regards, > Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) > The above are purely personal opinions, not > necessarily the official > views of any government or any agency of any. > Phone: 202 707-9612; Fax: 202 707-0955; US mail: > I.T.S. Dev.Gp.4, Library > of Congress, 101 Independence Ave. SE, Washington, > D.C. 20540-9334 U.S.A. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From hindu108 at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 13 04:23:36 2000 From: hindu108 at YAHOO.COM (Akhilesh Jha) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 20:23:36 -0800 Subject: recent messages Message-ID: <161227065242.23782.7241357209779085753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar, As other members have very well said we must oppose the whitewash of historical crimes against Hindus by muslim invaders and Christian missionaries. We must not attack, or make scapegoats or blame some for the crimes of their ancestors but we must not forget the attack, the loot, the plunder, the destruction brought upon Bharat by invaders. And, we must not rest till the historical crimes have been accounted for, not by making scapegoats but by returning of looted properties, by admitting to the crimes and by a clear commitment of not repeating the same. To ask, "how constructive it is to dwell on something that happened so long ago" is escaping from the responsibility. Before asking such question to Hindus of Bharat, why don't we suggest Jews to forget what happened to them so long ago, why don't we suggest to Palestinians about forgetting their history, why don't we ask Australian aborigines to forget what the settlers did to them. No, history and historical crimes cannot be forgotten so simply because it hurts some. More so when the crimes were committed in the name of a religion and that religion, that theology is still roaring to destroy everything that is different from them. The only way to correct historical crimes is to face them head on, not to play politics with them. Regards. Jha --- Lynken Ghose wrote: > Dear Indology members: > > There have been a few recent postings calling for > the redressing of > grievances for the Muslim invasions of India. > Admittedly, these invasions > were tragic, and, from what I have read, did wreak > destruction. However, I > am not sure how constructive it is to dwell on > something that happened so > long ago, or, to stir up anger against an entire > group of people, making > them the scapegoats for something that happened > before they were even born. > > If this is the point of such messages, then I am > against them. > However, if the point of the messages is just to try > to avoid whitewashing > history, then I am for them. > > Lynken Ghose > Iowa State University > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 02:53:53 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 20:53:53 -0600 Subject: Koh-I-noor Message-ID: <161227065234.23782.6936049553634546757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Vidyasankar wrote: >...It is simply crude to ask for its return. >If an Indian prince gave a diamond in his possession to the >British queen, it was a gift.......> It is believed that the so called 'gift' was made under pressure. In the real sense it was not a gift. There are also instances of the British creating false treaties. For eg: (this is from memory here) There was one Omichand, who was to act as a middleman between Clive and Mir Jafar. Clive then created a false document which promised rewards to the traitor Omichand for his cooperation. However, in the end when Omichand came to Clive to ask for his reward, Clive is supposed to have shown him the real document with the signatures of his superiors. This real document had nothing about Omichand and Omichand had to return empty handed. who knows how many 'gifts' were really gifts, how much was war booty ?how much was transferred illegally in last days of the raj ? and how much was simple thievery ? We will never know until someone looks and bothers to find out. The sad part is that after 50 years of independence we havent had historians who thought of finding out. Regards, Subrahmanya _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 02:02:00 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 02:02:00 +0000 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065231.23782.708814879140097754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The buddhist epic maNimEkalai, srivaishNava Alvars, and saivaite NayanmArs frequently refer to Narayana as "nAraNa_n". For example, the maNimEkalai passage: "kAtal koNTu kaTalvaNan2 purANam OtinAn2 nAraNan2 kAppu en2Ru uraittan2an" (maN. 27.98-99) Translation: The man who studied the ancient story/text of the sea-colored God said nAraNa_n(=nArAyaNa) is the one who protects. In Dravidian, -L- and -r- pairs exist; Within tamil, kAr = kALa = 'black' (eg., kArmukil = kALamukil = 'black cloud'); karu = kaLa = 'black' (eg., karuGkAy = kaLakkAy = 'black berry' such as i) small lance-crenate-acute-leaved whortle berry, s. tr., vaccinium nigherrense; ii). farklebrry; iii) bapal barberry. Parallel to the kAr-/kAL- pair, nAL-/nAr- (='black') is used in forming the name "nAraNa_n" = skt. nArAyaNa. Note that "aNa" is the Dravidian word as in mAyaNa, father of sAyaNa who was the commentator of the Rgveda. The -aNa in nAraNa is the same as in mAyaNa, sAyaNa, and mAyaNa, sAyaNa, nAraNa are names of the god Narayana. E. B. Cowell, The sarva darzana saMgraha, MLBD, p.1 " 3. The synopsis of all the systems is made by the venerable Maadhava, mighty in power, the Kaustubha-jewel of the milk-ocean of the fortunate SaayaNa. 4. Having thorougly searched the zAstras of former teachers, very hard to be crossed, the fortunate SaayaNa-Maadhava [1] the lord has expounded them for the delight of the good. Let the virtuous listen with a mind from which all envy has been far banished; who finds not delight in a garland strung of various flowers? [1] Dr. A. C. Burnell, in his preface to his edition of the vaMza-brAhmaNa, has solved the riddle of the relation of maadhava and saayaNa. SaayaNa is a pure Dravidian name given to a child who is born after all the elder children have died. Maadhava elsewhere calls SaayaNa, his "younger brother", as an allegorical description of his body, himself being the eternal soul. His use of the term sAyaNa-mAdhava here (not the dual) seems to prove that the two names represent the same person. The body seems meant by the sAyaNa of the third zloka. MaayaNa was the father of Maadhava, and the true reading may be zrIman-mAyaNa." [Will write in the future more on the Dravidian custom of naming the child something with a lowly thing so as 'to cheat the gods', and tamil kAy-/cAy- and the skt. zayana from k => z observed from Vedic times.] --------------------------------------- Prof. G. v. Simson wrote: >The Rgveda does not yet say that Vishnu is black, as far as I know, but >since it does not say very much about the god anyway, we cannot arrive at >the conclusion that he was not conceived as black either. For me his >identification with Krishna, "the Black one" is more than >a mere coincidence, but I think that his blackness has a symbolic value and >has nothing to do with skin colour and even less with beauty. One of the >most important manifestations/incarnations of the later Vishnu is the boar, >an animal characterized by its black colour, but not by its beauty. Vishnu-Narayana is Krishna 'black' and K. as well as Raama and Varaha being black is more than coincidence. Maal is considered both black and beautiful in Tamil tradition. When the poetess ANTAL sings "mAlE! maNivaNNA!", the maNi varNam refers to the black jewel. Like her, other Alvar Saints too call Narayana as 'karu maNi' (black jewel) sleeping on ananta-zeSa. The parallel is Narayaniyam section of the MBh. epic calling Narayana as aaditya-varNa, here the shining property and energy of his black color is refered to. The milky ocean, the serpent couch, zvetadvIpa etc., can be white and 'cool'. In contrast, Narayana is black. Vishnu vishvarupam is usually painted black or blue-black. Sangam poems call the black bee shining like a black maNi many a time. Indian art always depicts the Narayana sleeping in the milky ocean as black or blue-black. Some painting reproductions: a)1) Narayana sleeping on the serpent couch, accompanied by Lakshmi with Narayana's feet on her lap. A beautiful Pahari painting c. 1760 (p. 32, The Eternal cycle, Indian myth, Time-Life, 1998) 2) Gods and Sages beseeching Narayana to incarnate himself to kill Kamsa. National Museum, N. Delhi, No. 58.18/1. (p. 252, B. N. Goswamy, Essence of Indian art, San Francisco Museum exhibition catalog) This painting again is very interesting. Narayana who is blue-black is approached by the thousand-eyed Indra, Shiva, and the *black* VishNu himself. Both Narayana and Vishnu are portrayed in the same pg., and no suggestion of any color for Narayana other than blue-black. In the Sanskrit theory of poetics, shaanta rasa was added much later. There were attempts to interpolate this new rasam into Bharata's naaTya shaastra shlokam. Abhinavagupta's 11th century innovation is the new shaanta rasam which was linked to high religious experience. SaahityadarpaNam by Vishvanatha (14th century) calls Narayana as the deity of the shaanta rasam, and this text calls *white* as the color of the shaanta rasam, and he quotes jasmine and moon as examples of this color. Narayana, the supreme deity is chosen here because of his deep slumber (yoganidra), I suppose. Did this 2nd millennium tradition of shaanta rasam being white and Narayana being its deity influence any confusion on Narayana's color?: I think B. N. Goswamy could not reconcile the fact that black Narayana being the deity of the shaanta rasa, white in color like jasmine and the moon. Goswamy says: "It is especially relevant to point out here that the distribution and application of colors in these paintings need not be examined with reference to the concept of each rasa having its given color." Later: the color symbolism in ancient tamil literature, the 'five landscape' (aintiNai) of the TolkAppiyam, and the semiotics of hues associated with Indian gods, ... Regards, N. Ganesan _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 05:48:26 2000 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 05:48:26 +0000 Subject: Rohan Oberoi's email Message-ID: <161227065245.23782.15626445643891308940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apropos Rohan Oberoi's mail, you can add my name to the super-short list of the 2 secular Indians on this discussion group. I must say that I am amazed at the number of people who just seem to believe that India is, by definition, a Hindu country. I'd just like to know what anyone's definition of Hindu is. I consider myself a Hindu but would not be presumptuous enough to believe that my understanding of what it means to be a Hindu is the last word. Yes, I believe in the importance of debate but how is any kind of debate possible if one side wants to set certain terms of the debate - a priori assumptions about whom India 'belongs' to for instance. Incidentally I also notice lots of remarks against 'Macaulayite' Indians. Will someone tell me exactly what is meant by that term? I presume it revolves around the "secularized India elite" vs. "nativist" issue. I just want to make a couple of observations here. I have on occasion been called elitist, metropolitan Macaulayite etc. (a) by some people at seminars in India (when I presented a paper on literary theory that people said was in too high-falutin' English)(b) in the context of discussions when I put forth my secular views. That led me to wonder what exactly qualifies one as "elitist". In my case, it seemed because (a) I had chosen to study English (b) Because I seem to take the Indian constitution seriously when it says that India is a secular country and because I do not think that the BJP/RSS/VHP is the greatest thing to happen to India. What surprises me though is that my classmates / acquaintances / friends / associates - from an identical middle-class background as me -who went on to study engineering/computers etc and are making ten times as much as I do are not considered elitist by the 'accusers', if I may be permitted my own prejudice. In fact many of them are the 'accusers' themselves. So can any one tell me why not being pro-BJP is itself an index of being 'Macaulayite' and what the exact criteria for being elitist are. Also what, in the opinion of those who would call me Macaulayite, would it take for me not to be called by this pejorative term? If it means taking up Y2K programming, sorry - no can do - don't have that interest or ability. If it means supporting the BJP - no can do either because I respect the Indian constitution. Any other ways to become a non-Macaulayite true-blue son of the soil? _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 05:52:35 2000 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 05:52:35 +0000 Subject: Earlier mail posted to wrong discussion group Message-ID: <161227065247.23782.889609562883632938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi everyone, My earlier mail was meant for the SAJA listserv. Posted it by mistake here. My apologies. Regards Rohit _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 13 14:26:49 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 06:26:49 -0800 Subject: Mitanni Message-ID: <161227065267.23782.7114922604764515488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Sn. Subrahmanya" wrote: > >[...] > Here are some excerpts from "The Emergence of the Indo-Iranians: The > Indo-Iranian > languages." Harmatta, In History of Civilizations of Central Asia. > Ed: A.H.Dani and V.M.Masson > Harmatta writes {begin quote}" > In the scanty linguistic material of the Kassites three important > terms denoting deities occur: Suriyas,Maruttas and Bugas corresponding > to the Old Indian names Surya, Marut and Bhaga. Surya and Marut are unknown > in Old Iranian; this fact clearly points to the borrowing by the Kassites > of these names from the Proto-Indian. Thus, linguistic evidence speaks > clearly for the assumption that the people of war-charioteers, which had > induced the Kassites to invade Babylonia, belonged to the Proto-Indians." > ......... >{end quote} >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Thus there is clear evidence of Indian vedic names (not Indo-Iranian!) > and vocabulary showing up in West Asia long before the time you say > the Rgveda was compiled. Also, as we have already seen, by your own argument > the Rgveda has indications of the time of the confluence of the > Beas and the Satluj (probably a time even before the appearance of > Indian vocabulary in west-asia) and even older as well. >Because of this evidence, I think that the dating of the Rgveda >to 1500-1200 is a gross underestimation. Mr. Subrahmanya gave Harmatta few times. Hittitologists do not consider there was any PrIIr influence in Syria before 1500 BCE, and Harmatta is overstating without any foundations. If there was any around 1350 BC, it was very scanty. Best wishes, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 11:59:49 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 06:59:49 -0500 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065261.23782.12137975625974683239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 12:09:09 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 07:09:09 -0500 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065263.23782.267344706959608158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: R Srinivasan >"na reeyate iti narah". >Nara can therefore refer only to that which is indestructible in man, >ie. >Atma. Narasya idam nAram; that which belongs to the nara is NAra, >ie. the >jagat, manifested universe. NAram eti iti NArAyana; the one who knows this >nAra or jagat and is the causeof it is NArayana. There is a bug in hotmail which sometimes causes mail to HTML mail, sorry about that. ana is a rarely used secret word for prANA. chAndogyA says ana is the conceptual eater, and the food of ana is its derivative annam. I also saw aNNam for food, does this lead to aNa for prANA? Is there a parallel between ana/annam or aNa/aNNam to Tamil endings anan/aNNan or Telugu ending anna? nArAyana or aNrAyaNa means indestructible prANA. It may be phonetically engineered with nArA for inhalation/ArohaNam and ana for exhalation/avarohaNam. Regards Bhadraiah _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 07:27:27 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 07:27:27 +0000 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065255.23782.4215935120952510989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Parallel to the kAr-/kAL- pair, nAL-/nAr- (='black') is used in >forming the name "nAraNa_n" = skt. nArAyaNa. Pardon my poor acquaintance with Tamil, but could you please explain how nAL-/nAr- means black? I can think of numerous words where kari-/kAr-/kALa- indicates black, but no words where nAL- or nAr- is black, except perhaps the word nArAyaNa itself! So, can you give other examples of nAL-/nAr-, instead of just saying that it is parallel to kAL-/kAr-? >Note that "aNa" is the Dravidian word as in mAyaNa, father of sAyaNa What does this -aNa suffix mean? Is it also the same -aNa in the word puraaNa, used in the same maNimekalai verse you quoted? ... >as in mAyaNa, sAyaNa, and mAyaNa, sAyaNa, nAraNa are names of the god >Narayana. For the name sAyaNa, see M. B. Emeneau; K. Kushalappa Gowda. 1974. "The etymology of the name Sayana." JAOS 94: 210-212. Reprinted in _Sanskrit Studies of M. B. Emeneau_, pp. 151-153. Edited by B. A. van Nooten (Thanks to Prof. Aklujkar for sending this reference two years ago). There is no connection with nAraNa/nArAyaNa in this etymology. Is Emeneau quite mistaken, or isn't he "mainstream" enough, in your book? Also, how does mAyaNa become a name of nArAyaNa? ... >[Will write in the future more on the Dravidian custom of naming the >child something with a lowly thing so as 'to cheat the gods', and >tamil kAy-/cAy- and the skt. zayana from k => z observed from Vedic >times.] The word is sAyaNa, not zAyaNa. Do also explain z => s, after the word goes from k/c to z, when going from Tamil to Sanskrit. As for sAyaNa being the eldest surviving child, named in order to 'cheat the gods', then mAdhava could not have been his elder brother, no? >Vishnu-Narayana is Krishna 'black' and K. as well as Raama and >Varaha being black is more than coincidence. Maal is considered both >black and beautiful in Tamil tradition. When the poetess ANTAL sings While one hardly needs sthUNA-nikhanana-nyAya to agree that Vishnu and Krishna and Rama are black, note the following - narasimha, at least as important as (or perhaps more important than) varAha, as one worthy of worship - not black. vAmana and parazurAma - not particularly described as black anywhere in the texts, to my knowledge. buddha - the co-opted incarnation, not said to be black. saMkarshaNa - the "third" rAma, twin-god with kRshNa-vAsudeva, at least in the early history of Bhagavata and Pancaratra, and often an incarnation, in both Tamil and Sanskrit Vaishna texts. Not black again. Indeed, veLLaiccAmi and veLLaiyan. Add colour coding like kari, veLLai and paccai for Vasudeva, Samkarshana and Pradyumna in paripATal. See Lakshmi Srinivas's post - http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0011&L=indology&P=37942 kalki - the one to come in future, fair-skinned, riding on a white steed. And for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, gauranga = fair-skinned! Apparently, the mAyOn can take many forms and colours, using mAyA. Didn't kRshNa say something about bhrama, in his discourse to his cousin, friend and disciple, arjuna?!! >There were attempts to interpolate this new rasam into Bharata's >naaTya shaastra shlokam. Abhinavagupta's 11th century innovation is >the new shaanta rasam which was linked to high religious experience. zAnta-rasa and abhinavagupta are v. peripheral to this whole thing, but now that you have brought a Kashmiri in, why isn't the suffix -aNa in nAraNa/nArAyaNa akin to that in the names of Kashmiri poets, kalhaNa and bilhaNa? After all, badarikAzrama, the hermitage of the ancient sages, nara and nArAyaNa, is close enough to Kashmir. At least much closer than to Tamil Nadu. Also, nArAyaNa at Badrinath is often described as white, and the mountain itself equated with nArAyaNa. It is hard to think of a snow-capped Himalayan peak as black in colour. Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 13 15:39:45 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 07:39:45 -0800 Subject: aNNi in Hemachandra Message-ID: <161227065271.23782.941829830506267727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> P. Thirugnanasambandhan, Sanskrit-Tamil contact says that "aNNi" = 'brother's wife' is mentioned in Hemachandra's encyclopaedia. Is this so? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vikrants99 at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 13 16:02:26 2000 From: vikrants99 at YAHOO.COM (Vikrant Shah) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 08:02:26 -0800 Subject: Koh-I-noor Message-ID: <161227065276.23782.7757409715114237316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmanyaji wrote.. > The sad part is that after 50 years of independence > we havent had historians > who thought of finding out. Thats very true... Most of our Historians are still continuing from where the Brits left... Its something like.. if someone was asked to write about numerals... if Brits (for their personal gains) started writing about "A", "B", "C" and then left.. our Historians instead of "1", "2", "3" have started with "D", "E" etc etc.. Only God save our history from such historians.. Regards, Vikrant > > Regards, > Subrahmanya > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vikrants99 at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 13 16:10:26 2000 From: vikrants99 at YAHOO.COM (Vikrant Shah) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 08:10:26 -0800 Subject: Koh-I-Noor Message-ID: <161227065279.23782.15774786871354592324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Jim, Can you please enlighten us more by providing examples where the mosque has been destroyed by Hindus.. (I sincerely hope you dont mention about the structures which were built over the temples) Regards, Vikrant > Tuesday, > December 12, 2000 > And if no one obejcts to that, what about mosques > destroyed by > Hindus? Isn't it a two edged sword? Perhaps we > stray too far into > politics. > > Regards, > Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 13 17:44:02 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 09:44:02 -0800 Subject: recent messages Message-ID: <161227065291.23782.208365646096371284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. P. Kumar wrote: << I would like to appeal to the editors of the list to avoid such [disturbing] discussions to carry on endlessly. >> It?s explicable. I mean is this nothing more than a free for all editorial pages wherein members are encouraged to read and write as they darn well please without the slightest concern for the cultured sensibilities of Indological fundamentalists and their cult of orthodoxy? And now great troubling over recent scary discussions. Are we to expect more foaming and frothing too? Maybe it?s timely to make a quick lane-change or place a nice CD on the tray. Shall we vote on it then? VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Wed Dec 13 16:14:31 2000 From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 10:14:31 -0600 Subject: SV: recent messages Message-ID: <161227065282.23782.14125049056448952478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For what it's worth, Romila Thapar has been attacked by South Asian Islamic fundamentalist for her truthful reporting on the excesses of Mahmud of Ghazni's raids--a fact rather studiously ignored by her Hindu fundamentalist detractors. Somebody who manages to upset fundamentalists on both sides must be doing something right! Hans Henrich Hock >Lynken Ghose [SMTP:lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 12. desember 2000 17:56: > > There have been a few recent postings calling for the redressing of > > grievances for the Muslim invasions of India. Admittedly, these invasions > > were tragic, and, from what I have read, did wreak destruction. However, >I > > am not sure how constructive it is to dwell on something that happened so > > long ago, or, to stir up anger against an entire group of people, making > > them the scapegoats for something that happened before they were even >born. > > > > If this is the point of such messages, then I am against them. > > However, if the point of the messages is just to try to avoid >whitewashing > > history, then I am for them. > >Much of the point of "whitewashing" history, both in India and in the West, >is to avoid that irresponsible people use historical information to stir up >trouble in society and increase violence. There are more than enough >examples of this, and responsible politicians sometimes try to manipulate >history teaching in order to avoid stirring up past dirt and get society >going in a productive direction. However, historians have a duty to speak >the truth, and their reputation will suffer if they compromise. In >practice, most of the "real" historical discussion in democratic societies >takes place in heavy-duty academic publications far too dry for the general >public and therefore remains within the educated elite, which correctly or >not is assumed to behave responsibly. The general public is served a >sugar-coated version of history with nice colour pictures, and >easy-to-grasp narratives. As long as these narratives are held in a >non-inflammatory tone, not much evil can happen. But this is the arena >which the demagogue and trouble-maker will chose when history is used as a >political tool. None of the serious academic works I have read on Indian >history try to hide the fact that Muslim conquerors did very unacceptable >things. But using such information as a tool in today's politics is not >only morally dubious, it is unspeakably stupid and can in the long run only >hurt the Indian population at large, Hindus, Christians as well as Muslims. > >Lars Martin Fosse > > > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Norway >Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 >Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 >Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) >Email: lmfosse at online.no Hans Henrich Hock Professor of Linguistics and Sanskrit Linguistics, 4088 FLB MC-168, University of Illinois 707 S. Mathews, Urbana IL 61801-3652 telephone: (217) 333-0357 or 333-3563 (messages) e-mail: hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu fax: (217) 333-3466 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Dec 13 10:18:22 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 10:18:22 +0000 Subject: Koh-I-Noor In-Reply-To: <20001212054533.13013.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065257.23782.18368686705132030712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This message, and others like it, are not relevant to the subject matter of INDOLOGY, which is the study of classical Indian culture and languages, and not political activism. I am not making any judgement about the worthiness of any political causes, but this is not the place to discuss them. There are many internet forums which welcome and encourage such discussions. There are very few forums which do what INDOLOGY tries to do. So please respect the goals and scope of this particular discussion forum. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Akhilesh Jha wrote: > Namaskar Vikrantji, > > It is not that I have a ready solution but IMO > there are certain steps that must be followed. > > 1. Recognition of the fact Hindu temples were > destroyed, descrated and plundered on a very > systematic and large scale by invaders, mainly > muslims. Before we set out to recover what was > looted from us we must not have any doubt whether > looting and plundering itself was committed. > > We still have Congress, communists and pseudo- > secularists denying this very fact. > > 2. We need to spread this fact among masses of > Bharat so that they know the fact and become > aware enough to demand justice, right and property. > > Once the people rise up for truth, rest would > follow. > > 3. We should always watch out for those who's > agenda is to white wash history by concealing > and/or distorting the fact. We must expose such > people and their agenda. > > Regards. > Jha > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Dec 13 16:20:45 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 11:20:45 -0500 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065284.23782.11219338599443384852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/13/2000 12:21:34 AM Central Standard Time, rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG writes: > marattai maraittadu mAmada yAnai, marattil maraindadu mA mada yAnai; > Parattai maraittadu pArmada inbam; Parattil maraindadu pArmada inbam. The tirumantiram edition from kazakam (1996) has the following version: marattai maRaittatu mAmata yAn2ai marattin2 maRaintatu mAmata yAn2ai parattai maRaittatu pAr mutaR pUtam parattin2 maRaintatu mArmutaR pUvE/pUtamE (tir. 2251) What is the source for the version with "in2pam"? Thanks. Regards S. Palaniappan From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Wed Dec 13 03:24:25 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 11:24:25 +0800 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065236.23782.17502145603254262158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I am new to this list and essentially a seeker/learner. Since I found the topic of NAraNan interesting, I tthought of sharing this. There are many ways of deriving the meaning of this term, Narayana. The word, Nara is used to refer to a human. It also means indestructible, "na reeyate iti narah". Nara can therefore refer only to that which is indestructible in man, ie. Atma. Narasya idam nAram; that which belongs to the nara is NAra, ie. the jagat, manifested universe. NAram eti iti NArAyana; the one who knows this nAra or jagat and is the causeof it is NArayana. He is generally portrayed as DARK, rather than black. Krishna, Shyama, Neela megha are all refernces to dark, rather than black, for it often appears as green (when Rama or Krishna is portrayed as Syama) and blue as neela megha. KArmugil in Tamil is also the "dark cloud". In the relative universe of the manifested world of nAra, the Dark is but one side of the Light; to portray NArayana only as the dark hued God would then deny us the joy and perspective of the whole, which the luminous light provides. Hence, Adityavarnam, hence too His darkness juxtaposed with the milky white ocean. Gain the perspective of one, the other may be lost, like the nearness of the tree and the distance of the woods lend..reminds me of the Tamil verse, marattai maraittadu mAmada yAnai, marattil maraindadu mA mada yAnai; Parattai maraittadu pArmada inbam; Parattil maraindadu pArmada inbam. As far as I know, the description of Vishnu takes clear form, colour, etc. only from VishnupurAna onwards.. Radhika Srinivasan -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of N. Ganesan Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 10:02 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) The buddhist epic maNimEkalai, srivaishNava Alvars, and saivaite NayanmArs frequently refer to Narayana as "nAraNa_n". For example, the maNimEkalai passage: "kAtal koNTu kaTalvaNan2 purANam OtinAn2 nAraNan2 kAppu en2Ru uraittan2an" (maN. 27.98-99) Translation: The man who studied the ancient story/text of the sea-colored God said nAraNa_n(=nArAyaNa) is the one who protects. In Dravidian, -L- and -r- pairs exist; Within tamil, kAr = kALa = 'black' (eg., kArmukil = kALamukil = 'black cloud'); karu = kaLa = 'black' (eg., karuGkAy = kaLakkAy = 'black berry' such as i) small lance-crenate-acute-leaved whortle berry, s. tr., vaccinium nigherrense; ii). farklebrry; iii) bapal barberry. Parallel to the kAr-/kAL- pair, nAL-/nAr- (='black') is used in forming the name "nAraNa_n" = skt. nArAyaNa. Note that "aNa" is the Dravidian word as in mAyaNa, father of sAyaNa who was the commentator of the Rgveda. The -aNa in nAraNa is the same as in mAyaNa, sAyaNa, and mAyaNa, sAyaNa, nAraNa are names of the god Narayana. E. B. Cowell, The sarva darzana saMgraha, MLBD, p.1 " 3. The synopsis of all the systems is made by the venerable Maadhava, mighty in power, the Kaustubha-jewel of the milk-ocean of the fortunate SaayaNa. 4. Having thorougly searched the zAstras of former teachers, very hard to be crossed, the fortunate SaayaNa-Maadhava [1] the lord has expounded them for the delight of the good. Let the virtuous listen with a mind from which all envy has been far banished; who finds not delight in a garland strung of various flowers? [1] Dr. A. C. Burnell, in his preface to his edition of the vaMza-brAhmaNa, has solved the riddle of the relation of maadhava and saayaNa. SaayaNa is a pure Dravidian name given to a child who is born after all the elder children have died. Maadhava elsewhere calls SaayaNa, his "younger brother", as an allegorical description of his body, himself being the eternal soul. His use of the term sAyaNa-mAdhava here (not the dual) seems to prove that the two names represent the same person. The body seems meant by the sAyaNa of the third zloka. MaayaNa was the father of Maadhava, and the true reading may be zrIman-mAyaNa." [Will write in the future more on the Dravidian custom of naming the child something with a lowly thing so as 'to cheat the gods', and tamil kAy-/cAy- and the skt. zayana from k => z observed from Vedic times.] --------------------------------------- Prof. G. v. Simson wrote: >The Rgveda does not yet say that Vishnu is black, as far as I know, but >since it does not say very much about the god anyway, we cannot arrive at >the conclusion that he was not conceived as black either. For me his >identification with Krishna, "the Black one" is more than >a mere coincidence, but I think that his blackness has a symbolic value and >has nothing to do with skin colour and even less with beauty. One of the >most important manifestations/incarnations of the later Vishnu is the boar, >an animal characterized by its black colour, but not by its beauty. Vishnu-Narayana is Krishna 'black' and K. as well as Raama and Varaha being black is more than coincidence. Maal is considered both black and beautiful in Tamil tradition. When the poetess ANTAL sings "mAlE! maNivaNNA!", the maNi varNam refers to the black jewel. Like her, other Alvar Saints too call Narayana as 'karu maNi' (black jewel) sleeping on ananta-zeSa. The parallel is Narayaniyam section of the MBh. epic calling Narayana as aaditya-varNa, here the shining property and energy of his black color is refered to. The milky ocean, the serpent couch, zvetadvIpa etc., can be white and 'cool'. In contrast, Narayana is black. Vishnu vishvarupam is usually painted black or blue-black. Sangam poems call the black bee shining like a black maNi many a time. Indian art always depicts the Narayana sleeping in the milky ocean as black or blue-black. Some painting reproductions: a)1) Narayana sleeping on the serpent couch, accompanied by Lakshmi with Narayana's feet on her lap. A beautiful Pahari painting c. 1760 (p. 32, The Eternal cycle, Indian myth, Time-Life, 1998) 2) Gods and Sages beseeching Narayana to incarnate himself to kill Kamsa. National Museum, N. Delhi, No. 58.18/1. (p. 252, B. N. Goswamy, Essence of Indian art, San Francisco Museum exhibition catalog) This painting again is very interesting. Narayana who is blue-black is approached by the thousand-eyed Indra, Shiva, and the *black* VishNu himself. Both Narayana and Vishnu are portrayed in the same pg., and no suggestion of any color for Narayana other than blue-black. In the Sanskrit theory of poetics, shaanta rasa was added much later. There were attempts to interpolate this new rasam into Bharata's naaTya shaastra shlokam. Abhinavagupta's 11th century innovation is the new shaanta rasam which was linked to high religious experience. SaahityadarpaNam by Vishvanatha (14th century) calls Narayana as the deity of the shaanta rasam, and this text calls *white* as the color of the shaanta rasam, and he quotes jasmine and moon as examples of this color. Narayana, the supreme deity is chosen here because of his deep slumber (yoganidra), I suppose. Did this 2nd millennium tradition of shaanta rasam being white and Narayana being its deity influence any confusion on Narayana's color?: I think B. N. Goswamy could not reconcile the fact that black Narayana being the deity of the shaanta rasa, white in color like jasmine and the moon. Goswamy says: "It is especially relevant to point out here that the distribution and application of colors in these paintings need not be examined with reference to the concept of each rasa having its given color." Later: the color symbolism in ancient tamil literature, the 'five landscape' (aintiNai) of the TolkAppiyam, and the semiotics of hues associated with Indian gods, ... Regards, N. Ganesan ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Dec 13 16:27:01 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 11:27:01 -0500 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065286.23782.4040945681716932962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/13/2000 10:22:40 AM Central Standard Time, Palaniappa at AOL.COM writes: > parattin2 maRaintatu mArmutaR pUvE/pUtamE (tir. 2251) Oops, "mArmutaR" should be "pArputaR". Sorry for the typo. Regards S. Palaniappan From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Dec 13 06:53:29 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 12:23:29 +0530 Subject: living vs dead Message-ID: <161227065252.23782.11752211559079055274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Census officials were interviewing a woman: Husband? Dead. Died three years ago. Children? One Six month old. But you said your husband died three years ago. Yes. He died. I did not. Moral of the story: the living are more important than the dead. rajesh kochhar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 12:25:39 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 12:25:39 +0000 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065265.23782.6365820568275906345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Vidyasankar wrote: >Pardon my poor acquaintance with Tamil, but could you please >explain how nAL-/nAr- means black? nAL-/naL- with the corresponding long -A- and -a- has two meanings: Well attested in Tamil as a) black and b) center. nAL- as black is attested in "nAL-mIn" for nakshatram etc. in sangam literature (I think Chandrasekaran gave the reference for it here, Also read Palaniappan's writings.) Of course, naL-/nAL- with the meaning "center", hence a "tube", "reed" etc. consult DED among others. naLLu is 'reed' in Kannada etc (Cf. > Skt. nADI). nALagiri which probably means 'black mountain' is attested in Buddhist legends, and peruGkatai (old tamil version of Brhatkathaa) and, jAtaka tales call elephants aJjanagiri also. In Telugu, -L- in Dr. naLLa ('black') is changed into 'nalla' and the DED lists "al" (tamil word for 'night') as from naL- ('black, dark'). nalaayinii, the name of Draupadi whose personal name is krishNaa and nala (husband of damayanti), probably have to do with 'black, dark'. -l-/-r- alterations are common in any Indian langauge. Naalika 'crow, water buffalo' is related to black. I think 'naraka' contains this nal- meaning dark/black also, and naaraayaNii for zyAmaLaa (Paarvati). >>What does this -aNa suffix mean? I gave the Cowell and Burnell's theories in my original post. "SaayaNa" is a pure Dravidian name" acc. to Cowell/Burnell. Kannada "aNa" has cognates in tamil such as aNNan, aNNal, aNNam (For the meanings, consult Madras university lexicon). Does Emeneau give -aNa in sAyaNa as coming from Sanskrit? <<< E. B. Cowell, The sarva darzana saMgraha, MLBD, p.1 " 3. The synopsis of all the systems is made by the venerable Maadhava, mighty in power, the Kaustubha-jewel of the milk-ocean of the fortunate SaayaNa. 4. Having thorougly searched the zAstras of former teachers, very hard to be crossed, the fortunate SaayaNa-Maadhava [1] the lord has expounded them for the delight of the good. Let the virtuous listen with a mind from which all envy has been far banished; who finds not delight in a garland strung of various flowers? [1] Dr. A. C. Burnell, in his preface to his edition of the vaMza-brAhmaNa, has solved the riddle of the relation of maadhava and saayaNa. SaayaNa is a pure Dravidian name given to a child who is born after all the elder children have died. Maadhava elsewhere calls SaayaNa, his "younger brother", as an allegorical description of his body, himself being the eternal soul. His use of the term sAyaNa-mAdhava here (not the dual) seems to prove that the two names represent the same person. The body seems meant by the sAyaNa of the third zloka. MaayaNa was the father of Maadhava, and the true reading may be zrIman-mAyaNa." >>> >>Also, how does mAyaNa become a name of nArAyaNa? Consider the words of Vishnu-Narayana in Tamil (which was also given earlier). VishNu is mAl(Thiru-mAl=Vishnu) and mAyan. Tamil lexicon: a) mA = 1. greatness; 2. strength b) mA = 1. beauty; 2. blackness; 3. colour; 4. paleness caused by love-sickness c) mA = 1. animal, beast; 2. horse; 3. elephant; 4. male of horse, hog or elephant; d) mAyan2 = 1. dark complexioned person; 2. Vis2n2u; 3. deceitful person e) mAyavan2 = Vis2n2u f) mAl= 1. illusion, delusion, aberration of mind; dullness; stupor; confusion; 2. desire; 3. love; lust; 4. blackness g) mAl = 1. greatness; 2. great man; 3. cf. ma1la Vis2n2u; 4. Arhat; 5. Indra; 6. wind; 7. mercury; 8. Co1l6a king; 9. mountain; 10. plenty; fertility; 11. antiquity; 12. cloud; 13. a plant that grows only in hot and dry places h) mAl(lu)-tal = to be confused, perturbed. >Also, nArAyaNa at Badrinath is often described as white, and >the mountain itself equated with nArAyaNa. This is what I am looking for. Are there any shlokams from Sanskrit texts where Narayana is said to be white? And, possibly the quotations' likely dates. I have never seen Narayana sleeping in the milky ocean as white colored in Indian art. Always dark, blue, or black. Regards, N. Ganesan _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA Wed Dec 13 11:05:14 2000 From: kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA (Prof. P. Kumar) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 13:05:14 +0200 Subject: Disturbing Discussions Message-ID: <161227065259.23782.15493848267278150808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am a little concerned about the recent line of discussions on Koh-I-Noor, and mosques and temple destructions etc. The discussions are bordering on blaming one another for what happened in the past and using historiography to invent things that might or might not have happened. I would like to appeal to the editors of the list to avoid such discussions to carry on endlessly. Perhaps the points by respective individuals have been made and can we have an end to this? Pratap Prof. P. Kumar, Centre for Religious Studies, University of Durban-Westville Private BagX54001, Durban, 4000 South Africa, Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work), Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work) From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Wed Dec 13 06:16:39 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 14:16:39 +0800 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065250.23782.15363925425633472026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry to add another post in continuation of my earlier one on NArAyana; the dark is the mysterious, that which is concealed; the light is the Apparent, that which is revealed. Both are the qualities of NArAyana. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of R Srinivasan Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 11:24 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Dear list members, I am new to this list and essentially a seeker/learner. Since I found the topic of NAraNan interesting, I tthought of sharing this. There are many ways of deriving the meaning of this term, Narayana. The word, Nara is used to refer to a human. It also means indestructible, "na reeyate iti narah". Nara can therefore refer only to that which is indestructible in man, ie. Atma. Narasya idam nAram; that which belongs to the nara is NAra, ie. the jagat, manifested universe. NAram eti iti NArAyana; the one who knows this nAra or jagat and is the causeof it is NArayana. He is generally portrayed as DARK, rather than black. Krishna, Shyama, Neela megha are all refernces to dark, rather than black, for it often appears as green (when Rama or Krishna is portrayed as Syama) and blue as neela megha. KArmugil in Tamil is also the "dark cloud". In the relative universe of the manifested world of nAra, the Dark is but one side of the Light; to portray NArayana only as the dark hued God would then deny us the joy and perspective of the whole, which the luminous light provides. Hence, Adityavarnam, hence too His darkness juxtaposed with the milky white ocean. Gain the perspective of one, the other may be lost, like the nearness of the tree and the distance of the woods lend..reminds me of the Tamil verse, marattai maraittadu mAmada yAnai, marattil maraindadu mA mada yAnai; Parattai maraittadu pArmada inbam; Parattil maraindadu pArmada inbam. As far as I know, the description of Vishnu takes clear form, colour, etc. only from VishnupurAna onwards.. Radhika Srinivasan -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of N. Ganesan Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 10:02 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) The buddhist epic maNimEkalai, srivaishNava Alvars, and saivaite NayanmArs frequently refer to Narayana as "nAraNa_n". For example, the maNimEkalai passage: "kAtal koNTu kaTalvaNan2 purANam OtinAn2 nAraNan2 kAppu en2Ru uraittan2an" (maN. 27.98-99) Translation: The man who studied the ancient story/text of the sea-colored God said nAraNa_n(=nArAyaNa) is the one who protects. In Dravidian, -L- and -r- pairs exist; Within tamil, kAr = kALa = 'black' (eg., kArmukil = kALamukil = 'black cloud'); karu = kaLa = 'black' (eg., karuGkAy = kaLakkAy = 'black berry' such as i) small lance-crenate-acute-leaved whortle berry, s. tr., vaccinium nigherrense; ii). farklebrry; iii) bapal barberry. Parallel to the kAr-/kAL- pair, nAL-/nAr- (='black') is used in forming the name "nAraNa_n" = skt. nArAyaNa. Note that "aNa" is the Dravidian word as in mAyaNa, father of sAyaNa who was the commentator of the Rgveda. The -aNa in nAraNa is the same as in mAyaNa, sAyaNa, and mAyaNa, sAyaNa, nAraNa are names of the god Narayana. E. B. Cowell, The sarva darzana saMgraha, MLBD, p.1 " 3. The synopsis of all the systems is made by the venerable Maadhava, mighty in power, the Kaustubha-jewel of the milk-ocean of the fortunate SaayaNa. 4. Having thorougly searched the zAstras of former teachers, very hard to be crossed, the fortunate SaayaNa-Maadhava [1] the lord has expounded them for the delight of the good. Let the virtuous listen with a mind from which all envy has been far banished; who finds not delight in a garland strung of various flowers? [1] Dr. A. C. Burnell, in his preface to his edition of the vaMza-brAhmaNa, has solved the riddle of the relation of maadhava and saayaNa. SaayaNa is a pure Dravidian name given to a child who is born after all the elder children have died. Maadhava elsewhere calls SaayaNa, his "younger brother", as an allegorical description of his body, himself being the eternal soul. His use of the term sAyaNa-mAdhava here (not the dual) seems to prove that the two names represent the same person. The body seems meant by the sAyaNa of the third zloka. MaayaNa was the father of Maadhava, and the true reading may be zrIman-mAyaNa." [Will write in the future more on the Dravidian custom of naming the child something with a lowly thing so as 'to cheat the gods', and tamil kAy-/cAy- and the skt. zayana from k => z observed from Vedic times.] --------------------------------------- Prof. G. v. Simson wrote: >The Rgveda does not yet say that Vishnu is black, as far as I know, but >since it does not say very much about the god anyway, we cannot arrive at >the conclusion that he was not conceived as black either. For me his >identification with Krishna, "the Black one" is more than >a mere coincidence, but I think that his blackness has a symbolic value and >has nothing to do with skin colour and even less with beauty. One of the >most important manifestations/incarnations of the later Vishnu is the boar, >an animal characterized by its black colour, but not by its beauty. Vishnu-Narayana is Krishna 'black' and K. as well as Raama and Varaha being black is more than coincidence. Maal is considered both black and beautiful in Tamil tradition. When the poetess ANTAL sings "mAlE! maNivaNNA!", the maNi varNam refers to the black jewel. Like her, other Alvar Saints too call Narayana as 'karu maNi' (black jewel) sleeping on ananta-zeSa. The parallel is Narayaniyam section of the MBh. epic calling Narayana as aaditya-varNa, here the shining property and energy of his black color is refered to. The milky ocean, the serpent couch, zvetadvIpa etc., can be white and 'cool'. In contrast, Narayana is black. Vishnu vishvarupam is usually painted black or blue-black. Sangam poems call the black bee shining like a black maNi many a time. Indian art always depicts the Narayana sleeping in the milky ocean as black or blue-black. Some painting reproductions: a)1) Narayana sleeping on the serpent couch, accompanied by Lakshmi with Narayana's feet on her lap. A beautiful Pahari painting c. 1760 (p. 32, The Eternal cycle, Indian myth, Time-Life, 1998) 2) Gods and Sages beseeching Narayana to incarnate himself to kill Kamsa. National Museum, N. Delhi, No. 58.18/1. (p. 252, B. N. Goswamy, Essence of Indian art, San Francisco Museum exhibition catalog) This painting again is very interesting. Narayana who is blue-black is approached by the thousand-eyed Indra, Shiva, and the *black* VishNu himself. Both Narayana and Vishnu are portrayed in the same pg., and no suggestion of any color for Narayana other than blue-black. In the Sanskrit theory of poetics, shaanta rasa was added much later. There were attempts to interpolate this new rasam into Bharata's naaTya shaastra shlokam. Abhinavagupta's 11th century innovation is the new shaanta rasam which was linked to high religious experience. SaahityadarpaNam by Vishvanatha (14th century) calls Narayana as the deity of the shaanta rasam, and this text calls *white* as the color of the shaanta rasam, and he quotes jasmine and moon as examples of this color. Narayana, the supreme deity is chosen here because of his deep slumber (yoganidra), I suppose. Did this 2nd millennium tradition of shaanta rasam being white and Narayana being its deity influence any confusion on Narayana's color?: I think B. N. Goswamy could not reconcile the fact that black Narayana being the deity of the shaanta rasa, white in color like jasmine and the moon. Goswamy says: "It is especially relevant to point out here that the distribution and application of colors in these paintings need not be examined with reference to the concept of each rasa having its given color." Later: the color symbolism in ancient tamil literature, the 'five landscape' (aintiNai) of the TolkAppiyam, and the semiotics of hues associated with Indian gods, ... Regards, N. Ganesan ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 14:43:25 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 14:43:25 +0000 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065269.23782.10085833126064850323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadriah Mallampalli wrote: >chAndogyA says ana is the conceptual eater, and the food of ana is its >derivative annam. I also saw aNNam for food, does this lead to aNa for > >prANA? ????? Where is aNNam with the retroflex given as a word for food? And where in the chAndogya text is "ana" the eater? The base Ana, relating to nose/breathing, gives rise to apa-Ana, vy-Ana, ud-Ana and sam-Ana. The retroflexion in pra-ANa is because of the r in the prefix pra. Generally, I would like vAyu, but not anna, to enter my respiratory tract. The former sustains life, but the latter sometimes calls for the Heimlich manoeuvre. ------------------ N. Ganesan wrote: >nAL-/naL- with the corresponding long -A- and -a- has two meanings: >Well attested in Tamil as a) black and b) center. The case for (b) seems good, but (a) looks like your speculation. Every case you cite is only "probably" black. Too iffy. ... >is krishNaa and nala (husband of damayanti), probably have >to do with 'black, dark'. -l-/-r- alterations are common nala, the nishAda king, may have got his name from the occupation of his tribe, that of weaving reeds into articles. In fact, if you look up Monier-Williams, nala is the name of a tribe that made grass bracelets. So, given that Dravidian naL and Sanskrit nala both mean "reed", this is at least as good a notion as nala meaning black. ... >in any Indian langauge. Naalika 'crow, water buffalo' is naalika = crow, is new to me. Reference? The word also means the following - lotus flower, reed, tube, myrrh, a wind instrument. Now where on earth is the black colour in these? But note tube and reed, in relation to the Dravidian word. >related to black. I think 'naraka' contains this nal- meaning >dark/black also, and naaraayaNii for zyAmaLaa (Paarvati). nArAyaNI is simply the sister of nArAyaNa, so this is not a separate case that supports your contention. The fundamental issue is that different names given to a thing can refer to different attributes of that thing. nArAyaNa may be kRshNa, but that does not automatically indicate that nArAyaNa also refers to the black colour. Otherwise, one could start looking for such meanings in words like padmanAbha and purushottama and AdityavarNa. For that matter, why not the 1000 names from vizva and vashaTkAra to akshobhya and sarvapraharaNAyudha, and also the word yogezvara in the Gita? ... >Kannada "aNa" has cognates in tamil such as aNNan, aNNal, aNNam >(For the meanings, consult Madras university lexicon). >Does Emeneau give -aNa in sAyaNa as coming from Sanskrit? Emeneau and Gowda derive it from Dravidian -aNa < -aNNa. I have a little problem with that, because as far as I know, Kannada and Marathi do have the word aNNa, but aNa seems less well attested. Perhaps some Kannada expert can take this up. As for sAy in sAyaNa, the proposed root is the vernacular sA(y)i standing for the Sanskrit word svAmI, as seen in words like gosAin for gosvAmin. Of course, today there is a Sai Baba too, an example of how svAmi becomes sAi. Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From rao.3 at OSU.EDU Wed Dec 13 16:08:33 2000 From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 16:08:33 +0000 Subject: A hypothetical question Message-ID: <161227065277.23782.5888943099207856249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Given the past discussions about appointment to academic bodies, I hope that this is not too far offline. What would the list members say if a person who does not know Sanskrit (say, in the weak sense of reading a page in 15-20 minutes) is (hypothetically) appointed as the vice-chancelor (comparable to provost in sone US universities) of something named ``... Sanskrit University''? Regards -Nath From ah14 at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Wed Dec 13 16:17:53 2000 From: ah14 at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (Satish K. Tiwary) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 16:17:53 +0000 Subject: SV: recent messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065289.23782.12362664596907660122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pardon me for disgressing, but who are these 'Hindu Fundamentalists' Herr Hock is referring to? And what are the 'fundamentals' they believe in? Thanks in advance... On 13 Dec 00, at 10:14, Hans Henrich Hock wrote: > For what it's worth, Romila Thapar has been attacked by South Asian > Islamic fundamentalist for her truthful reporting on the excesses of > Mahmud of Ghazni's raids--a fact rather studiously ignored by her > Hindu fundamentalist detractors. Somebody who manages to upset > fundamentalists on both sides must be doing something right! > > Hans Henrich Hock > > Satish K. Tiwary University of Edinburgh Edinburgh, UK From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Wed Dec 13 21:49:01 2000 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 16:49:01 -0500 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065300.23782.9254182122846077084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That's a point that's often brought up when history is dragged into the construction of ethnic hatreds. Among other themes, there are a number of properties currently operating as temples which are quite well documented to have been "looted" by Hindus from Buddhists (such as the Mahabodhi temple at Bodh Gaya, or the 'Jagannatha' temple at Puri) since these dispossessions, unlike the widely postulated dispossession of tribals from most of India, occurred recently enough. There are besides Hindu temple sites known to have been looted and destroyed by Hindus (including, strangely enough, one that was looted by the Hindu Marathas and restored by the king whose territory they were looting -- the Muslim Tipu Sultan). How little history looks the way reductionist ethnic hate mongers want it to look can be see in any contemporary account, say, of the composition of the Mughal armies -- in which the crucial battalions at pivotal moments of history were very often Hindu Rajputs. The problem is that the goal of scholarship is not to tally up the rights and wrongs of history like a football match; it is taken for granted that people of all kinds did lots of bad (and good) things through the centuries. That's not the point. But politics is (sadly) often about mobilising ethnic groups against other ethnic groups along easily identifiable markers. So Indologists get venom from Hindus who want to believe that all Hindus through history were good and pure, and as Dr. Hock notes they get it similarly in the neck from Muslims who want to believe the same about all Muslims in history. Fortunately there is no particular South Asian pathology here: for example, scholars of Japan who put forward the likely theory that Japanese society derives partly from large scale migrations from the Korean peninsula are not much liked in Japan. But I do wish there were some way to avoid seeing these barrages of posts from political rabblerousers here on this list. A milder form of Mr. Houben's proposal might not be entirely unwarranted, and I would be willing to support one even if it got me banned from posting here. Regards, Rohan. Artur Karp wrote: >Akhilesh Jha wrote: > >>we must not forget the attack, the loot, the plunder, the >>destruction brought upon Bharat by invaders. And, we must not rest >>till the historical crimes have been accounted for, not by making >>scapegoats but by returning of looted properties, by admitting to >>the crimes and by a clear commitment of not repeating the same. >... >Is it so clear that in the process of (what may be termed as) the >Indian internal colonization no land was ever taken (looted, if I may >use your language) from original owners? By Indians - from Indians? > >Is it so clear that no Indian tribal "religious symbols, prayer >places and altars" were ever destroyed by the builders of new cities, >pilgrimage centers, shrines, fortresses, roads, dams, irrigation >systems, mines, etc.? > >With regards, > >Artur Karp > >University of Warsaw > >Poland From l_s_k at NETZERO.NET Wed Dec 13 21:59:59 2000 From: l_s_k at NETZERO.NET (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 16:59:59 -0500 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065297.23782.4797742169404788110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends I am not typing in tamil for one reason, it takes a longer time, than if I type in english. It is nice to read all the tamil quotes about the color of vishnu and all that .... Wake up Hindus ... Is the color of the God so important ? We need to follow basic doctrines in life - think good, do good and be good. Good thoughts lead you to do good deeds to become a good person. Our hindu society is caught up with all wrong notions - which caste is high/low, is it dvaita or advaita ... - is it vadama or brahacharanam - is it vadakalai or thenkalai ... - color of krishna is black or blue ... It is time that we quit all these nonsense and work upon eradicating some major issues that still hinder our growth. The first step to eradicate the evils of casteism is to just honor the life and thus give dignity to a person of lower caste. Empowering them with good quality education is the key to success. Not the color of Krishna or Vishnu. - Suresh _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Wed Dec 13 22:27:45 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 17:27:45 -0500 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) In-Reply-To: <002701c06550$9e623840$1d361440@pavilion> Message-ID: <161227065306.23782.6499470132210701860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. A commendable thought, but such practical matters are discussed/acted upon elsewhere and by other people, mostly. 2. As I have been taught here, this group is for high-powered scholars debating about the subtle meanings of ancient words, for the purpose of discovering truths about Hindu culture and history, purely out of scientific/scholarly curiosity (in plain English, to have fun). 3. The pandits do not appreciate discussing current issues, not because they think they are unimportant, but because they feel that is not their 4. Unfortunately, those who have no commitment and/or emotional affiliation to the subject matter can perhaps have an objective understanding/interest in all this, but it is very difficult for anybody with even a modicum of cultural belongingness to keep cool and unperturbed when certain matters come to the fore. Black and white, caste hierarchy and untouchability, Aryan/Dravidian dichotomy, whether Sanskrit originated in India or merely evolved there: these are among the topics that can become pretty explosive. 5. What to do about this? Only Indians in India can answer this, and I am sure there are people of goodwill, scholars and journalists, lay leaders and religious, thinkers and writers, who are right there in the thick of things, who know the situation and its complexities much better: who are trying to resolve these issues. Outsiders can help if called upon, but they cannot advice on what needs to be done. 6. Who would have thought a hundred years ago that ancient history would provoke so many controversies, so much bitterness and name-calling! But I fear this is only the beginning. 6. It surprises me that many professional Indologists do not seem to care much about this very unhappy and potentially dangerous situation. It seems to me that it may not be wise on the part of exo-Indologists to be altogether indifferent to this state of affairs, but I already said this once and was rebuked for it, because, as noted above, such practical matters are discussed/acted upon elsewhere and by other people, mostly. Therefore, it is very likely that someone will say, or at least think: "If you don't care for etymologies, extincts grammars, cryptology, and related esoterica, you are in a wrong place, buddy!" V. V. Raman December 13, 2000 From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Wed Dec 13 15:48:42 2000 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 17:48:42 +0200 Subject: SV: Science Fiction Question for an Indologist (fwd) Message-ID: <161227065274.23782.1263595026913281266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > The construction of mechanical wonders (thaumatourgia in Greek, I believe) > goes all the way back to antiquity. Oriental princes were very > enthousiastic about such devices whereas they were practically unknown in > the West during the Middle Ages. The phenomenon is described in art > history, I recently saw a monograph on the subject (unfortunately, I don't > remember the title of the book, but I can find out). There was some interest in mechanics in the Hellenistic and Roman period, true, and some manuals of it are preserved, partly in Greek, partly, thanks to the Oriental Princes (?), in Arabic. However, the Greek engineers were not capable of constructing robots and flying machines, this was only part of their exaggerated fame in Indian literature. The late Finnish scholar Bjarne Hulden wrote in the 1980s and 1990s two books about Greek and Roman science and engineering; unfortunately they are in Swedish, but Lars at least is capable of reading them. Regards Klaus -- Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography Institute of Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094 From l_s_k at NETZERO.NET Wed Dec 13 23:25:06 2000 From: l_s_k at NETZERO.NET (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 18:25:06 -0500 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065310.23782.3782033653233982358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > "V.V. Raman" wrote: > > 2. As I have been taught here, this group is for high-powered scholars > debating about the subtle meanings of ancient words, for the purpose > of discovering truths about out of scientific/scholarly curiosity (in plain English, to have fun). This is fantastic and certainly most laudable. We need to know our roots, however long that would take and whatever be the age from which this learning process started. The problem, is however, this knowledge has so far , been restricted to the few "educated elite intelligentia" - many of whose personal biases have greatly tarnished certain info. For example, the poet Kannadasan, once indulged in the worst criticism of Hindu religion but it took him severe losses in personal life to get that awakening and then write great works about Hindu religious stuff. His tamil version of kanakadhaara stotram, if I remember well, had its blessings from the Kanchi Shankaracharya. Now the question is, how man tamilians, leave all Indologists and people of other languages here - have read the work and learnt ? That is why, we need the works of Indologists be translated - without biases - let the truth be written as truth - and be made available to the masses - who must also be literate enough to read and understand. While I certainly in agreement that 'out of scientific/scholarly curiosity (in plain English, to have fun)' is true ( that is why I too joined this list ), those enlightened persons must see to it that once their curiosity is answered, they do take the effort to help others understand the same. > Black and white, caste hierarchy and untouchability, Aryan/Dravidian > dichotomy, whether Sanskrit originated in India or merely evolved > there: these are among the topics that can become pretty explosive. > > 5. What to do about this? Only Indians in India can answer this, and I > am sure there are people of goodwill, scholars and journalists, lay > leaders and religious, thinkers and writers, who are right there in > the thick of things, who know the situation and its complexities much > better: who are trying to resolve these issues. Outsiders can help if > called upon, but they cannot advice on what needs to be done. "aayiram undingu jaathi, yenil anniyan vandhu pugal enna needhi" .. ??? The main problem is the education, either the lack of it or insufficient exposure to it. The above mentioned topics are explosive solely because there is a lack of dignity to human life, esp. of a lower caste person. Skin color, casteism, untouchability, aryan invasion theory, dravidian idealogy, role of sanskrit - all dwell from the source - evil casteism. > 6. Who would have thought a hundred years ago that ancient history > would provoke so many controversies, so much bitterness and name- > calling! But I fear this is only the beginning. Name calling is done because people refuse to accept facts. So the only way to stop the discussion is to go in for personal attack. > 6. It surprises me that many professional Indologists do not seem to > care much about this very unhappy and potentially dangerous > situation. There in lies the problem. Classic case of election results - Educated people do not vote and complain why such lousy politicians were elected (by the illiterate masses). Experts must shed their personal biases, either political or religious or other, and must focus on enlightening the people about the issues. The problem, is they do, but with all their personal biases of all kinds evident in their writings. Hence the problems only becomes complex. _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL Wed Dec 13 17:40:41 2000 From: karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 18:40:41 +0100 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process In-Reply-To: <20001213042011.27644.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065293.23782.5347720354725512236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At ... 12-12 Akhilesh Jha wrote: >we must >not forget the attack, the loot, the plunder, the >destruction brought upon Bharat by invaders. And, >we must not rest till the historical crimes have >been accounted for, not by making scapegoats but >by returning of looted properties, by admitting to >the crimes and by a clear commitment of not >repeating the same. and >Hindu scriptures don't call for >destruction of religious symbols, prayer places >and altars of other religions. Is it so clear that in the process of (what may be termed as) the Indian internal colonization no land was ever taken (looted, if I may use your language) from original owners? By Indians - from Indians? Is it so clear that no Indian tribal "religious symbols, prayer places and altars" were ever destroyed by the builders of new cities, pilgrimage centers, shrines, fortresses, roads, dams, irrigation systems, mines, etc.? With regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 14 01:20:51 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 19:20:51 -0600 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065314.23782.5053285364588638141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is sad to see that 'eminent' scholars want to hush up the history of India. If Hindus destroyed mosques or temples - we should know about it. If Muslims destroyed mosques or temples - we should know about it. Actually any scholar would definitely want to know the details of each incident - that is what History is all about. Instead we get this wishy washy answer of 'everyone did it' and then the label 'fundamentalist' is thrown around. How do we know that 'everyone did it' unless we know the details about destruction of temples and mosques and how many were destroyed. Would a Jewish person who wanted to find out how many synagogues had been destroyed in Europe be called a fundamentalist ? Would an Armenian who wanted to find more about his own history under the Turks called a fundamentalist ? Why is it ok to search for some hypothetical homeland of some hypothetical proto-language ? but not ok for Indians to know how many temples and mosques have been destroyed ? It is imperative that the truth be told and any honest historian would want to know that. Those who want to cover up the truth are the ones who want perpetuate enemity between various peoples of India. Because they can then take sides prop themselves up as protectors and thrive on the backs of others misery and fear. Only with truth can there be reconciliation and peace. These people who cover up history are no friends of India and also importantly they are the enemies of those they claim to protect. Regards, Subrahmanya. _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 14 01:41:40 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 19:41:40 -0600 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065325.23782.4974786348703419129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Briefly, because the former is hypothetical, whereas the latter is >political. >Please try being more hypothetical and less political. Please. You >are ruining this list. > >George Thompson Your hypothetical theories have caused lives to be lost and created secessionist movements in India. I must tell you that the history of the people of India has been ruined by hypothetical racist theories for a long time now. Subrahmanya _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Dec 14 01:34:39 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 20:34:39 -0500 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065320.23782.1300793616690540233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/13/00 8:21:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > Why is it ok to search for some hypothetical homeland of some > hypothetical proto-language ? but not ok for Indians to know > how many temples and mosques have been destroyed ? Briefly, because the former is hypothetical, whereas the latter is political. Please try being more hypothetical and less political. Please. You are ruining this list. George Thompson From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 14 04:49:55 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 20:49:55 -0800 Subject: Re. Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065330.23782.12294020474154408232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Why don?t we all stop running to daddy. VT Re. <> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 21:18:17 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 21:18:17 +0000 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065295.23782.17365375666285927193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>to portray NArayana only as the dark hued God would then deny us the joy >>[...] Is Narayana ever pportrayed white? Good advaita style thinking. "Krishna [snip] references to dark, rather than black". Is Krishna not black???!! While, Tamil, by linguistics as well as literature, supports nAraNan(=nArAyaNa) as black, traditional Sanskrit literature tells it is from water. Prof. Madhav Despande wrote: [Begin Quote] Some clarification on nara -> nArAyaNa may be useful. While such a derivation of the word nArAyaNa from nara- may be theoretically possible, cf. dak.sa -> daak.saaya.na, the tradition does not derive naaraaya.na from nara-. It derives the word naaraaya.na from the word naaraa (f. 'water', cf. aapo naaraa iti proktaa.h) by adding ayana. While the derivation of nALAyaNI from naLa, on the face of it, may be similar to the derivation of daak.saaya.nii from dak.sa, the derivation of naa.laa in naa.laagiri from na.la does not seem so straight forward. Also the meaning 'black' for nala- is not known in its Sanskrit usage. Sorry for using different notations for diacritics. Madhav Deshpande [End Quote] ------------- <<< Dear list members, I am new to this list and essentially a seeker/learner. Since I found the topic of NAraNan interesting, I tthought of sharing this. There are many ways of deriving the meaning of this term, Narayana. The word, Nara is used to refer to a human. It also means indestructible, "na reeyate iti narah". Nara can therefore refer only to that which is indestructible in man, ie. Atma. Narasya idam nAram; that which belongs to the nara is NAra, ie. the jagat, manifested universe. NAram eti iti NArAyana; the one who knows this nAra or jagat and is the causeof it is NArayana. He is generally portrayed as DARK, rather than black. Krishna, Shyama, Neela megha are all refernces to dark, rather than black, for it often appears as green (when Rama or Krishna is portrayed as Syama) and blue as neela megha. KArmugil in Tamil is also the "dark cloud". In the relative universe of the manifested world of nAra, the Dark is but one side of the Light; to portray NArayana only as the dark hued God would then deny us the joy and perspective of the whole, which the luminous light provides. Hence, Adityavarnam, hence too His darkness juxtaposed with the milky white ocean. Gain the perspective of one, the other may be lost, like the nearness of the tree and the distance of the woods lend..reminds me of the Tamil verse, marattai maraittadu mAmada yAnai, marattil maraindadu mA mada yAnai; Parattai maraittadu pArmada inbam; Parattil maraindadu pArmada inbam. As far as I know, the description of Vishnu takes clear form, colour, etc. only from VishnupurAna onwards.. Radhika Srinivasan >>> _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Dec 14 03:32:30 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 22:32:30 -0500 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065328.23782.15116843921018417892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/13/00 8:42:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Your hypothetical theories have caused lives to be lost and > created secessionist movements in India. > > I must tell you that the history of the people of India has been > ruined by hypothetical racist theories for a long time now. > Dominik, Please, talking with this person is hopeless. Please do something! George Thompson From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 13 22:42:52 2000 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 22:42:52 +0000 Subject: A query on Vachaspati Mishra Message-ID: <161227065308.23782.11278328847702147062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Wed Dec 13 22:03:33 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 23:03:33 +0100 Subject: Traditional etymology of Vaasudeva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065302.23782.6479685171502050241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Years ago, I saw a traditional etymology of the name Vaasudeva for Vishnu, tracing it to the root vas 'enter into, etc'. I believe it was attributed to Vyasa, possibly taken from the Mahabharata; but now I can't find it. Does anybody know? Thanks, Martin Gansten From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Wed Dec 13 22:04:47 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 23:04:47 +0100 Subject: Traditional etymology of Vaasudeva Message-ID: <161227065304.23782.7356688088072164460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To clarify: I meant to ask, 'Does anybody know the reference?' >Years ago, I saw a traditional etymology of the name Vaasudeva for Vishnu, >tracing it to the root vas 'enter into, etc'. I believe it was attributed to Vyasa, >possibly taken from the Mahabharata; but now I can't find it. Does anybody >know? Thanks, Martin Gansten From hindu108 at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 14 07:32:26 2000 From: hindu108 at YAHOO.COM (Akhilesh Jha) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 23:32:26 -0800 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065338.23782.14058625542340312771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> TO: Sri Artur Karp ?Is it so clear that in the process of (what may be termed as) the Indian internal colonization no land was ever taken (looted, if I may use your language) from original owners? By Indians - from Indians?? It is clear that Indians who converted to Islam/Christianity, willingly or under threat, looted and destroyed Hindu temples in collaboration with muslim invaders. ?Is it so clear that no Indian tribal "religious symbols, prayer places and altars" were ever destroyed by the builders of new cities, pilgrimage centers, shrines, fortresses, roads, dams, irrigation systems, mines, etc.?? Not by Hindus. Christian and Muslims on the other hand are known to have that special command from their gods to destroy "religious symbols, prayer places and altars" of others before making their own. With regards, Jha TO: Rohan Oberoi ?That's a point that's often brought up when history is dragged into the construction of ethnic hatreds.? And that is the point often ignored and put aside by those who don?t want to face the truth of the plunder, destruction, rape and murder carried on by muslims against all non-muslims. ?Among other themes, there are a number of properties currently operating as temples which are quite well documented to have been "looted" by Hindus? Instead you divert the attention by bringing up a total lie and nonsense such as temples running on looted properties. You claim to have good documentation for that but close your eyes when large scale destruction of Hindu temples and properties by muslims and Christians are mentioned to you! ?from Buddhists (such as the Mahabodhi temple at Bodh Gaya, or the 'Jagannatha' temple at Puri) since these dispossessions, unlike the widely postulated dispossession of tribals from most of India, occurred recently enough.? Stop lying. ?There are besides Hindu temple sites known to have been looted and destroyed by Hindus (including, strangely enough, one that was looted by the Hindu Marathas and restored by the king whose territory they were looting -- the Muslim Tipu Sultan).? What an absurd thing. Now these are ?the point that's often brought up when history is dragged into the construction of ethnic hatreds.? ?How little history looks the way reductionist ethnic hate mongers want it to look can be see in any contemporary account, say, of the composition of the Mughal armies -- in which the crucial battalions at pivotal moments of history were very often Hindu Rajputs.? Who said Hindus didn?t have traitors? Many Indologists even today are a good example of that. Even now Hindus have to fight most often with idiots among themselves. ?The problem is that the goal of scholarship is not to tally up the rights and wrongs of history like a football match;? The goal of the scholarship is not to look the other way when their pet theories are challenged. The goal of the scholarship is to find the truth. It is you who is treating history like a football match by bringing up imaginary things instead of speaking about the subject I brought up ? plunder and destruction of Hindu temples and properties by muslim invaders. ?it is taken for granted that people of all kinds did lots of bad (and good) things through the centuries. That's not the point.? What a dumb argument. Because ?people of all kinds did lots of bad (and good) things through the centuries?, Jews must not talk about what Nazis did to them, Australian aborigines must not mention how settlers killed their near and dear ones and Hindus must not speak about how Hindus were butchered, how their temples were destroyed and how they were humiliated by muslim invaders!! Everybody did bad things, so that is not the point! It may not be a point for you. It is the point for those who strive to know the truth. As someone has said, let us know where Hindus have destroyed mosques and let us know where muslims have destroyed temples. So Indologists get venom from Hindus who want to believe that all Hindus through history were good and pure? Only Indologists like you who?s only answer to muslims? barbarism is that this or that Hindu also did that. There are good and bad among Hindus as well as muslims but only muslims and Christians are commanded by their gods to convert/kill others, destroy others religious places etc. Regards. Jha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From hindu108 at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 14 07:43:00 2000 From: hindu108 at YAHOO.COM (Akhilesh Jha) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 23:43:00 -0800 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065341.23782.9978008870907378316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar Patwardhanji, Very well said. These are the details that SOME Indologists and historians don't want to see. They would rather whitewash criminal muslim theology and history by giving strange instances of how Hindus also indulged in similar acts! The need is to face the truth from all sides. Regards. Jha --- Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan wrote: > When Emperor Ashok murdered his brothers to make his > sovereignty > unchallenged, he is not known to have sought (or > received) a doctrinal > sanction for his act. But when Aurangzeb executed > his brother, Dara Shukoh, > with the same motive as Ashok's, he had a clear > sanction from doctrinal > prescriptions for dealing with apostates and > heretics! > > When the two Muhammads (Ghazni & Ghor), for example, > laid India waste, they > did so on the basis of their doctrinal inspiration, > and none had reason to > question their heinous crimes. In fact, even the > great Sufi poet, Amir > Khusrau, who is celebrated as an epitome of secular > and liberal values, has > only praise for the despicable and bigoted conduct > of his various Khalji > royal patrons (see Khusrau's "Miftahu'l-Futuh", > "Qiranu's-S'adain", > "Khazanu'l-Futuh", or the "Ashiqa" for proof). > > On the other hand, when the Bodh Gaya or the > Jagannath shrine was looted, > the looters could never be able to proffer any > doctrinal justification for > their acts of violence and pillage. They knew rather > well that none would > ever be found! > > The Shringeri Mutt was indeed looted by Raghunathrao > Nilkanth, but the > motive was military and political more than > doctrinal. I know this because > I happen to be a direct descendant of Raghunathrao. > He wanted the > extradition of Tipu's men who had apparently sought > and received asylum > inside the Mutt from the Shankaracharya. On > receiving a refusal from the > conspiring Shankaracharya to his demand, he forced > his way in and took > possession of the men and the loot they had carried > with them. As for the > restoration of the Mutt purportedly done by Tipu, it > must be considered a > very rare exception indeed considering the religious > and cultural havoc he > is known to have perpetrated in the regions under > his military, if not > political, influence! > > The point we must consider in this discussion is > whether it was the > doctrine or expediency that caused violence. And, if > it was the former (as > it undeniably was in the case of the Muslim invaders > rulers), whether there > has been any change in the way we regard the > validity of the inspiring > doctrine in the age our much-vaunted commitment to > human rights! > > Sincerely > BCP > > At 16:49 12/13/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >That's a point that's often brought up when history > is dragged into > >the construction of ethnic hatreds. Among other > themes, there are a > >number of properties currently operating as temples > which are quite > >well documented to have been "looted" by Hindus > from Buddhists (such > >as the Mahabodhi temple at Bodh Gaya, or the > 'Jagannatha' temple at > >Puri) since these dispossessions, unlike the widely > postulated > >dispossession of tribals from most of India, > occurred recently > >enough. There are besides Hindu temple sites known > to have been > >looted and destroyed by Hindus (including, > strangely enough, one that > >was looted by the Hindu Marathas and restored by > the king whose > >territory they were looting -- the Muslim Tipu > Sultan). How little > >history looks the way reductionist ethnic hate > mongers want it to look > > > (REST OF THE MESSAGE DELETED) > Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan > Kurundwad House > 10A Mangaldas Road > Pune - 411 001 > India > ================================================ > "Until the Lions have their own historians, the > history of the hunt will > always glorify the hunter" - (Attributed to a > Black African Leader) > =========================================================== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Wed Dec 13 23:44:45 2000 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 23:44:45 +0000 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065312.23782.10864858394678168240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rohan Oberoi "lied" when he wrote that Hindus "looted" the Mahabodhi temple. (the quotation marks in the above are significant). -Arun Gupta From medhi at CSI.COM Thu Dec 14 05:30:17 2000 From: medhi at CSI.COM (Prasenjit Medhi) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 00:30:17 -0500 Subject: Re. Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065332.23782.9149630414899425317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yeah, Daddy says he's tired. Just go to the censors. Btw, Greets to all, and prosperous New Year and joyous Eurocentric celebrations! >Why don?t we all stop running to daddy. > >VT From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 14 01:29:48 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 01:29:48 +0000 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065317.23782.5928421452271631252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Briefly, my response to some points by Vidyasankar: a) Check Online TL for naalikam 'crow' and 'water buffalo'. Obviously these names denote black, as in telugu nalla and tamil naLLiruL, nALmIn, etc. b) I did not say zayana is from tamil s- at all. It is from k- => z-. c) -aNa like tamil -aNan is Dravidian; Names like MuttaNan, RaamaNan, KaruppaNan, RangaNan, PeriyaNan, Cin2n2aNan, PaccaiyaNan, KongaNan, CembaNan, ... are common tamil male names. If one wants an attestation prior to sAyaNa (which is an 'akam'/'interior' name and, maadhava which is a 'puRam'/ 'exterior' name, if Burnell-Cowell theory is correct) consult CilappatikAram. The aTiyArkku nallAr wrote his commentary under the patronage of "poppaNa kAGkEyan" . Without aTiyArkku-nallAr's work, we would have missed precious lot on ancient Tamil music, ATiyArkkunallAr thanks PoppaNan profusely in the pAyiram: "kURRait tavirttu aruL poppaNa kAGkEyarkOn2 aLitta cORRuc cerukku allavO tamiz mUn2Ru urai colvittatE!" In literature, pAmpaNan/pAppaNan/poppaNan can be found. pAppu/pAmpu/poppu all refer to snake, and hence these names refer to Shiva Nagalamkarar. Gowda-Emeneau is right to point out -aNa in sAyaNa as Drav. Do you think they are not Tamil? d) Probably, Emeneau has not seen Burnell's work a century ago. Has he? Foll. Burnell-Cowell, sAyaNa is Dravidian. Note the tamil cognate cAy- = 'reclining', 'sleeping stretched out the limbs'; Also, it has the meaning: to grow thin, to be emaciated, etc., This all has to do with the Drav. naming customs when many children have died off earlier, and parents desparately want to make the remaining kid(s) survive into adulthood. Now medicine and public health improvements have reduced the problem greatly. e) I understand that Balarama, Vali, Indra, ZeSa et al. are white and 'cool' gods. Doesn't Balaraama hold tAla tree and a toddy goblet? BTW, Mayrhofer gives tAla as coming from Dravidian. Regards, N. Ganesan _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 14 01:37:29 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 01:37:29 +0000 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065322.23782.12282709744814683288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree with your noble aims, but this is a forum interested in the study of ancient India. --------------------- Friends I am not typing in tamil for one reason, it takes a longer time, than if I type in english. It is nice to read all the tamil quotes about the color of vishnu and all that .... Wake up Hindus ... Is the color of the God so important ? We need to follow basic doctrines in life - think good, do good and be good. Good thoughts lead you to do good deeds to become a good person. Our hindu society is caught up with all wrong notions - which caste is high/low, is it dvaita or advaita ... - is it vadama or brahacharanam - is it vadakalai or thenkalai ... - color of krishna is black or blue ... It is time that we quit all these nonsense and work upon eradicating some major issues that still hinder our growth. The first step to eradicate the evils of casteism is to just honor the life and thus give dignity to a person of lower caste. Empowering them with good quality education is the key to success. Not the color of Krishna or Vishnu. - Suresh _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 14 10:57:36 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 05:57:36 -0500 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065344.23782.10177576774130726183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (A new para added below at ===>. Rest everything is same as in my mail to you.) >Bhadriah Mallampalli wrote: > >>chAndogyA says ana is the conceptual eater, and the food of ana is its >>derivative annam. I also saw aNNam for food, does this lead to aNa for >> >prANA? > >????? Where is aNNam with the retroflex given as a word for food? And where >in the chAndogya text is "ana" the eater? I am sorry I do not have the books containing the word aNNam, but I positively remember seeing the devanAgarI "aNNam" in aitareyA or taittirIyA upaniSats printed by R.K.Mission. >The base Ana, relating to nose/breathing, gives rise to apa-Ana, vy-Ana, >ud-Ana and sam-Ana. The retroflexion in pra-ANa is because of the r in the >prefix pra. Generally, I would like vAyu, but not anna, to enter my >respiratory tract. The former sustains life, but the latter sometimes calls >for the Heimlich manoeuvre. The base is "ana", not "Ana". This URL is not very reliable but please check .. http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/upan/up01c.htm "SECOND KHANDA 1. Breath said: 'What shall be my food?.' They answered: 'Whatever there is, even unto dogs and birds.' Therefore this is food for Ana (the breather). His name is clearly Ana. To him who knows this there is nothing that is not (proper) food." Some more speculations containing the word "swallow". "7. Then he eats with the following Rik verse at every foot: 'We choose that food'-- here he swallows -- 'Of the divine Savitri (prana)' -- here he swallows -- 'The best and all-supporting food' -- here he swallows -- 'We meditate on the speed of Bhaga (Savitri, prana)'-here he drinks all." My interpretation: Apologies again because different subjects got mixed up in my reply. Some more apologies on behalf of the Rsi because scripture fancies the khichdi of concepts. The definition of functions ana, prANA, apAnA, vyAnA, udAnA and samAnA can be given at various levels. 1. Nervous level (for a single nerve cell as felt in yoga), 2. Nervous level (for an entire nervous system or synchronized nervous cells as felt in yoga), 3. How body feels in each function ana etc. 4. Breathing. To discuss all this can take volumes. I am also avoiding vAyu in this discussion. ana, prANA etc are primarily nervous functions. They all have physical counterparts in the body, but only prANA and apAnA are easy to explain in simple words. Others (ana, vyAnA, UDaNa, samAnA) are not so easy to explain, but they can be indicated by other means. To start from starting, ana is purely a nervous function of the involtary nervous system. It has nothing to do with breath (at least to begin with!) "inspite of" what the scripture says. ana is the sensation to eat or swallow. ana is a force driven by the involuntary nervous system, without which even a worm can not eat. ana is the killer instinct in every living cell, the inner drive, especially of the nervous cells, and that is where every go-getter thought originates. Vedic seers knew about this feature and named it ana. But then if every cell has its own agenda, it does not lead to an optimal functioning of the body. Therefore many cells join together in synchronism to satisfy their physical needs, leading to systematic exhalation and inhalation. One inhalation or exhalation can serve many millions of cells (leaving out a few). The cells left out are either not cared for (and will complain later); or they are the "presiding cells" who do not need any nurturing because they are the bosses (vyAna, udAnA, samAnA). When millions of cells join together to inhale it is called apAnA, and when they join together to exhale it is called prANA. ===> The presiding cells are those that already got their liberation. The rest of them including those that complain haven't got the liberation, so they live ordinary lives. Those that got the liberation can some times pull others to their side, just as mosquitos which are on one side of a net can pull in those that are outside. But then, the physical prANA and apAnA are not just group phenomena based on some random thermo dynamic laws. They are necessarily driven by their nervous equivalents. An experienced yogi can synchronize the nervous functions so that the physical inhalation (apAnA) and exhalation (prANA) coincide with the flow of nervous signals up and down the involuntary nervous system (to confuse, these are also called apAnA and prANA; apAnA is sympathetic and prANA is parasympathetic). The nervous interpretation of prANA/apANA is described in prANA sUktA of atharva veda and I have full discussion on that topic. http://friends.acmecity.com/harmonica/301/qad2.html To give an analogy, we can say that the water that flows up and down the trunk of a tree is the nervous prANA/apAnA; and the actual breathing of the tree via leaves is the physical prANA/apAnA. vyAnA, udAnA and samAnA make better sense as nervous activities, though there are physical equivalents for these forces also. By "better sense" I mean better control at physical level and better logic at philosophical level. vyAnA is a nervous function that presides over prANA and apAnA. vyAnA can be seen in self-contained controlling organs such as heart, mouth (aGgIrasAs) etc (as felt in yoga). udAnA is the equivalent of zeetala prANAyAmA or hyper ventilation which gives a yogi the feeling of flying. I do not really believe in flying against gravity. In my opinion udAnA is meant for getting out of the shell of ignorance and going to a higher plane after vyAnA (as svaH/yajus) pierces the shell we are living in. samAnA is the process of assimilating udAnA to the body so that the liberation that the mind has obtained is now distributed to the body's cells. This is the highest stage and is associated with the muscles at navel, which is also said to be the focal point of carnatic music. vAyu is a pure Vedic symbol which signifies "any" movement of ana, prANA, vyAnA, udAnA or samAnA. This is an extremely difficult one to catch. All one can do is depend on agni to track movements of vAyu. It is like we can see the movments of flames to see how wind is blowing. Regards Bhadraiah _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vikrants99 at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 14 15:46:03 2000 From: vikrants99 at YAHOO.COM (Vikrant Shah) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 07:46:03 -0800 Subject: Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. Message-ID: <161227065374.23782.1945582446199017899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Robert Zydenbos wrote: > It has been stated repeatedly on this list that the > professionals > should simply ignore nonsense and delete it without > much further > ado. So the professionals on this list need to be told what they should be doing... what they should read.. what should delete.. what they should study.. what they should think.. If someone puts forth some views two things are done.. 1) he is asked to leave the list 2) other are told not to listen to them This is the "openness" in which our culture will "flourish". Very true.. there is no "threat" to our culture. Regards, Vikrant __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Dec 14 17:01:56 2000 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 09:01:56 -0800 Subject: sAyaNa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065386.23782.3418386196393091817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If I recall, Prof. Emeneau has a paper devoted to the proper name sAyaNa. It appears in the collected volume "Sanskrit Studies of M.B. Emeneau" editied by Bart van Nooten (1988). This is available from the Center for South Asia Studies at Berkeley. chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu || socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan > > I think it is right to derive it from Dravidian roots. Emeneau > and Gowda do cite Burnell and Cowell. But perhaps, it is not > right to link -aNa to -aNNa as in elder brother? > > > The only problem is that k/c => z does not explain s in > the name sAyaNa, which was never written as zAyaNa. > > Best regards, > Vidyasankar > From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 14 17:08:55 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 09:08:55 -0800 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065388.23782.7389994145376942209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >.. > >ago. Has he? Foll. Burnell-Cowell, sAyaNa is Dravidian. > >Note the tamil cognate cAy- = 'reclining', 'sleeping stretched > >out the limbs'; Also, it has the meaning: to grow thin, to be > > The only problem is that k/c => z does not explain s in > the name sAyaNa, which was never written as zAyaNa. > It is a routine change in Dravidian. It could as well be represented as cAyaNA. Initial c- is pronounced as ch- and s-. The latter is more common as one moves south to north. The s- form has also been dominating the media for some time and people have stopped applying snandhi rules in places where the c- is supposed to double. The phrase "kaNkalukkuc contamillai" is often pronounced as "kaNkalukku sondhamillai" by many. > Best regards, > Vidyasankar > P.Chandrasekaran. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 14 18:28:38 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 10:28:38 -0800 Subject: Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. Message-ID: <161227065396.23782.4924685144409035417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re. http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0012&L=indology&D=1&O=D&P=26412 Dear Dr. Zydenbos, while this forum is surely a curiously baroque creature, I find your recent attempts at burlesque a sad travesty indeed. Therefore, as your area of professional expertise apparently lies elsewhere, we would hope from now on that you might see it befitting to maintain yourself _there_, if only for the sake of a more centered contribution, on your part, to our esteemed academic list. I am not totally rejecting your undisciplined thinking, per se, but rather, I sincerely look forward to seeing you reestablish for yourself a valid place in the ongoing discussions here. Yet, please do allow me to again press home the advantages of not receiving the full load of Indology postings in your email box. Why not instead go to the site yourself and browse as you wish? http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=indology&D=1&H=0&O=D&T=1 I can?t speak for you, but I for one am personally juggling far too much daily electronic correspondence. In a word, going there yourself acts to mitigate the inherent intrusiveness of the Indology postings, which are obviously pestering you so much. In this way, you needn?t even bother deleting those subjects & authors that you are finding so displeasing. I really do suggest that you try this out and see if it doesn?t help calm your nerves. In addition, there is also a system of ancient Indian physical therapy that may be relevant. One really does wonder why hatha-yogic and related subjects are never brought up. Do any of my colleagues have inkling towards such discussion? Why are we neglecting physical and mental health concerns? After all, our excellent founder is a noted expert in Ayurvedic literature. I even remember him once suggesting to us--if I'm not mistaken--a visualization technique, perhaps half in jest, whereby the bodily nadis were to be cleansed and cooled. I would be very much in favor of such future discussion. Finally, I would like to make the point that since we are all certainly not experts in all areas of Indian culture, we are therefore all of us students to some extent or other. In any case, a nice sort of anti-hyper-cerebral-indicating Ayurvedish Yoga would perhaps be a topic of profound benefit to the general well being of our list community. **Appended queries: What area(s), if any, of Indology are the least cerebral? For example, would an Indian ?pure art? be antithetical to Indology? Does one ever ?practice? Indology. Phrased another way: Are we to necessarily consider Indology a pure science? Best regrds, VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Dec 14 19:26:00 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 11:26:00 -0800 Subject: nArANa, the Bengali word for nArAyaNa Message-ID: <161227065400.23782.14684139114282858008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nArANa [pronounced naaraana], the Bengali word for nArAyaNa [samsad bAGgAlA abhidhAn = shangshad baangaalaa (sic) abhidhaan] is glossed as the apabhramza form of Skt [and tatsama] word nArAyaNa. But is it possible [ as my high school headmaster Khagendranath Dasgupta thought] to derive nArANa [a veritable proto-Bengali word, attested in place-names etc.] from Santali nAr, "to cheat", "to deceive" [nArAyaNa being the great deceiver, mohinI and all that]. The -ANa ending is attested in words like gAyANa [=gAyen], bAyANa [bAyen] etc. Or [the moral of the story] is it not comparable to inviting Yaska to preside over an etymological debate ? And construe a whole cultural universe based on the perennial Nirukta ? Best wishes. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail From ramesh511 at HOTVOICE.COM Thu Dec 14 19:30:33 2000 From: ramesh511 at HOTVOICE.COM (Ramesh Patnaikuni) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 11:30:33 -0800 Subject: [Re:] Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. Message-ID: <161227065403.23782.17733726540893298273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yo Nazi man stop talking your bullshit let all participants decide what research needs to be done, I do not think we are ruled by Hitler to say who should be on the list and who sould not be put forward your own research ideas and let the subscribers on the list decide what is relevent to a culture. Respectfully Ramesh Patnaik On Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:27:59 +0100 Robert Zydenbos wrote: >It > >Fortunately, there is a lot more to Indian culture than what >politically motivated alarmists have to say. And fortunately, most of >the people who pursued political agendas and kooky varieties of >religious fundamentalism have left this list and continue their antics >on other lists. Perhaps Akhilesh Jha, Vikrant Shah, 'Ven. Tantra' >(whoever that may be) a.o. can follow that example and go in >search of a more gullible audience. Then all this stupid, militant, >revanchist talk about 'threats to Indian culture', 'historical injustice' >etc. may soon stop here altogether. > > >Robert Zydenbos >Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik >Universit?t M?nchen > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Global Internet phone calls, voicemail, fax, e-mail and instant messaging. Sign-up today for FREE account at http://www.hotvoice.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 14 12:01:42 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 12:01:42 +0000 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065346.23782.17967314344318428430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan wrote: <<< The Shringeri Mutt was indeed looted by Raghunathrao Nilkanth, but the motive was military and political more than doctrinal. I know this because I happen to be a direct descendant of Raghunathrao. He wanted the extradition of Tipu's men who had apparently sought and received asylum inside the Mutt from the Shankaracharya. On receiving a refusal from the conspiring Shankaracharya to his demand, he forced his way in and took possession of the men and the loot they had carried with them. As for the restoration of the Mutt purportedly done by Tipu, it must be considered a very rare exception indeed considering the religious and cultural havoc he is known to have perpetrated in the regions under his military, if not political, influence! >>> Welcome to Indology list. These problems with Shringeri mutt, could they have led to the Maratha support for the Kanchi mutt in the 19th century then at Kumbakonam? ----- I am also interested in knowing about the name, "kurundwad", does this refer to any village/town? The rAja/zamindar houses in Madras or Ooty used to be named after their native places in 19th or early 20th century. Why I am asking is "kurundam" tree is famous in Krishna legends in old Tamil literature, and there are many villages named 'kurunda-pADi" in Tamil Nadu area. With regards, V. Iyer _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 14 17:22:25 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 12:22:25 -0500 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065391.23782.6053674572934985123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't think any topic related to Indology can be excluded on a list titled "Indology". But this is a scholars' list, so posters must at least pretend they are writing a serious research paper for publication and use suitable language to request or share information, and avoid spilling or leaking the conclusions of their research on the list even while they collect data. Even if the purpose is to study a paper or book already published (recently or long ago), still I see no reason why it must be discussed for the sake of discussion other than with the intention to share or collect data for writing another serious followup paper on the topic. Regards Bhadraiah _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From kurundwadsenior at WMINET.NET Thu Dec 14 07:34:27 2000 From: kurundwadsenior at WMINET.NET (Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 12:34:27 +0500 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065335.23782.2401358325364509444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When Emperor Ashok murdered his brothers to make his sovereignty unchallenged, he is not known to have sought (or received) a doctrinal sanction for his act. But when Aurangzeb executed his brother, Dara Shukoh, with the same motive as Ashok's, he had a clear sanction from doctrinal prescriptions for dealing with apostates and heretics! When the two Muhammads (Ghazni & Ghor), for example, laid India waste, they did so on the basis of their doctrinal inspiration, and none had reason to question their heinous crimes. In fact, even the great Sufi poet, Amir Khusrau, who is celebrated as an epitome of secular and liberal values, has only praise for the despicable and bigoted conduct of his various Khalji royal patrons (see Khusrau's "Miftahu'l-Futuh", "Qiranu's-S'adain", "Khazanu'l-Futuh", or the "Ashiqa" for proof). On the other hand, when the Bodh Gaya or the Jagannath shrine was looted, the looters could never be able to proffer any doctrinal justification for their acts of violence and pillage. They knew rather well that none would ever be found! The Shringeri Mutt was indeed looted by Raghunathrao Nilkanth, but the motive was military and political more than doctrinal. I know this because I happen to be a direct descendant of Raghunathrao. He wanted the extradition of Tipu's men who had apparently sought and received asylum inside the Mutt from the Shankaracharya. On receiving a refusal from the conspiring Shankaracharya to his demand, he forced his way in and took possession of the men and the loot they had carried with them. As for the restoration of the Mutt purportedly done by Tipu, it must be considered a very rare exception indeed considering the religious and cultural havoc he is known to have perpetrated in the regions under his military, if not political, influence! The point we must consider in this discussion is whether it was the doctrine or expediency that caused violence. And, if it was the former (as it undeniably was in the case of the Muslim invaders rulers), whether there has been any change in the way we regard the validity of the inspiring doctrine in the age our much-vaunted commitment to human rights! Sincerely BCP At 16:49 12/13/2000 -0500, you wrote: >That's a point that's often brought up when history is dragged into >the construction of ethnic hatreds. Among other themes, there are a >number of properties currently operating as temples which are quite >well documented to have been "looted" by Hindus from Buddhists (such >as the Mahabodhi temple at Bodh Gaya, or the 'Jagannatha' temple at >Puri) since these dispossessions, unlike the widely postulated >dispossession of tribals from most of India, occurred recently >enough. There are besides Hindu temple sites known to have been >looted and destroyed by Hindus (including, strangely enough, one that >was looted by the Hindu Marathas and restored by the king whose >territory they were looting -- the Muslim Tipu Sultan). How little >history looks the way reductionist ethnic hate mongers want it to look (REST OF THE MESSAGE DELETED) Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan Kurundwad House 10A Mangaldas Road Pune - 411 001 India ================================================ "Until the Lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter" - (Attributed to a Black African Leader) =========================================================== From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 14 12:39:21 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 12:39:21 +0000 Subject: Disturbing Discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065349.23782.7566760447178879940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Prof. P. Kumar wrote: > I would like to appeal to the editors of the list to avoid such > discussions to carry on endlessly. While I share your sentiments, I would point out that this list does not have any editors. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 14 12:48:23 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 12:48:23 +0000 Subject: Re. Black as Evil In-Reply-To: <20001214044955.860.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065351.23782.2168146635034727081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Ven. Tantra wrote: > Why don?t we all stop running to daddy. I think you have cleverly managed to insult both me and George Thompson in a single short sentence. This list is not designed as a forum for insults, accusations, or political lobbying. I'm getting pretty fed up with the lack of self-control shown by some recent posters, and I shall now recommence summarily unsubscribing people who persistently ignore the scope and purposes of this list. I shall issue one warning before unsubbing a person. This is such a warning. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 14 12:49:30 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 12:49:30 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065354.23782.7423578497920039108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Subrahmanya S. wrote: [...] This is a warning. Do not post any more messages that fall outside the scope of this list. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 14 12:50:23 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 12:50:23 +0000 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065356.23782.710128584519731529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Arun Gupta wrote: > Rohan Oberoi "lied" when he wrote that Hindus "looted" the Mahabodhi temple. > (the quotation marks in the above are significant). > > -Arun Gupta > This is a warning. Do not post any more message that lie outside the scope of this list, or which are "rude". -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 14 12:51:59 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 12:51:59 +0000 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065360.23782.11932516809390548081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: [...] > It is time that we quit all these nonsense and work upon > eradicating some major issues that still hinder our growth. [...] This is a warning. Do not post messages which fall outside the scope of INDOLOGY. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 14 12:53:23 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 12:53:23 +0000 Subject: Re. Black as Evil In-Reply-To: <003101c0658e$f2b232e0$1853c0d8@roon> Message-ID: <161227065362.23782.4086575450666260405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Prasenjit Medhi wrote: > Yeah, Daddy says he's tired. Just go to the censors. > > Btw, Greets to all, and prosperous New Year and joyous Eurocentric > celebrations! > This is a warning. Do not post messages which are unrelated to the scope of this list. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 14 18:32:11 2000 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 13:32:11 -0500 Subject: one of list discussions and academic method Message-ID: <161227065398.23782.10270762591531261247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members: I have read through the various messages concerning the nature and scope of this list. I feel the need to respond in some way but am having difficulty with deciding what I would like to express. I am afraid that, even in attempting to express something, I may fall into the same trap as most people do: creating one's own form of fundamentalism. But, I will give it a shot anyway. First of all, it should be said that the various fundamentalist sentiments, semi-violent to violent verbal barrages, etc. are obviously self serving and more restraint should be shown. I'm not sure how provoking more violence will cure or heal the wounds of the past. People should really think a little more carefully before pushing the send button. As one person said a while back, just send whatever you would say face to face. This admonition should also be issued to scholars in the field as well as non-scholars. I have noticed that a number of very arrogant remarks have gone by unchecked; yet, arrogance feels like as much of an assault as violently expressed fundamentalist sentiments. Also, arrogant quips and elitist sentiments impede the discussion as much as any of the other dogmatic stances that have been expressed, and they are just as self serving. This being said, I would like to address one particular dogma that seems to prop up academic elitism in the humanities and social sciences. It still seems to be a commonly held belief that the dispassionate or detached observation of phenomena, be they archaeological finds, textual passages etc. leads to superior judgement concerning these very facts. First, let us examine this idea of dispassion. Is it truly a real concept? If we consider many of the studies coming out of Cognitive Psychology, psychologists seem to be telling us that cognition and emotion are inseparable. Therefore, if dispassion is defined as cognitive investigation devoid of emotion, then this is not referring to any real phenomenon. I guess what I'm trying to say here with the last two paragraphs is the following: just because we are scholars in the field does not necessarily mean that our judgement from the facts is superior. It may mean that we have more facts at our disposal in certain areas; but this belief is more harmless, in that it does not lead to elitist sentiments, whereas the belief in superior judgement will. Perhaps this message will be considered unacceptable too. If so, then I will accept the consequences. Sincerely, Lynken Ghose Iowa State University _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From zydenbos at GMX.LI Thu Dec 14 13:27:59 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 14:27:59 +0100 Subject: Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. Message-ID: <161227065365.23782.6277260518429629853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It has been stated repeatedly on this list that the professionals should simply ignore nonsense and delete it without much further ado. However, two questions remain: (a) should an originally academic forum, for which there as yet is sadly no alternative, degenerate to a place where political activists, religious fundamentalists and a variety of other weird folk send earnest researchers garbage on a daily basis? (b) does silence on the part of those who know better in this forum not implicitly lend legitimacy to the vicious statements of such characters? Academic researchers will not be fooled; however, it is most regrettable that for a long time there has been activity by non-academics, apparently aimed at the numerous innocent non-academics on this list, using this forum for the spreading of sickening ideas. Apparently a few new people have joined the list. The following is meant for them rather than for the professional experts for whom the list was meant. Am 13. Dec 2000 schrieb Vikrant Shah: > So any threat to our culture should be very well dealt with.. If we understand a culture to be a living body of knowledge, values, norms, customs that help people to shape their lives and to find meaning in life, then it can only be threatened (a) by physical annihilation of those who are the bearers of that culture (this is a possibility in Tibet, but surely not in India with its thousand million people), (b) by an inner weakening of support for that body of knowledge etc., i.e., when people who associated themselves with that culture find that it no longer fulfils their needs and (an)other culture(s) appear more appropriate and / or fulfilling. If Indian culture is at all under threat, it can only be a threat of the second type. The first is materially impossible. If people who identify themselves with any variety of Indian culture feel that their culture is threatened, they must look inward and look for the reasons why they feel that their culture has any shortcomings. (If no shortcomings are perceived, then the culture cannot be under threat.) Either old insights of the culture must be revived and their relevance for today must be shown, or those aspects of the culture that are found to be outdated should be altered or discarded after a rethinking and reforming of that culture. This has happened all over the world in all times and in all cultures, also in India. When certain persons believe that 'threats' to their culture can be warded off through the cultivation of hatred against scapegoats (incl. the flogging of long-dead horses of history, 'historical crimes / injustice' etc. etc., as we keep seeing on this list), through the physical persecution of persons who are perceived as 'enemies' or 'others' who 'threaten' the culture, through the physical destruction of property of such other persons, and other types of revanchism - then those persons show that they are already culturally bankrupt. They show that their personal culture has no inner strength, no creative, constructive dynamism, nothing positive to contribute to a world where there already is more than enough hatred and harm, and they offer their fellows-in-their-culture nothing but paranoia and odious conspiracy theories. No truly cultured person, anywhere and of any background, can have any respect for persons of such a presumably 'threatened culture' or for their doings. Clamourings about 'threats to Indian culture', 'the need to rewrite history in order to set right historical wrongs and reestablish Indian self-respect', etc. are all bogus. We know which kind of totalitarian ideology is the source of such bunkum and why it wants to create scapegoats. It has been discussed on this list more than once. Fortunately, there is a lot more to Indian culture than what politically motivated alarmists have to say. And fortunately, most of the people who pursued political agendas and kooky varieties of religious fundamentalism have left this list and continue their antics on other lists. Perhaps Akhilesh Jha, Vikrant Shah, 'Ven. Tantra' (whoever that may be) a.o. can follow that example and go in search of a more gullible audience. Then all this stupid, militant, revanchist talk about 'threats to Indian culture', 'historical injustice' etc. may soon stop here altogether. Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Thu Dec 14 20:32:30 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 15:32:30 -0500 Subject: Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. In-Reply-To: <3A38D8EF.29729.42F144@localhost> Message-ID: <161227065405.23782.1262388619295762547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indian/Hindu friends: As I have understood it: 1. The Indology group was formed by scholars who are genuinely interested in very technical matters: grammar of IE and related languages, current archaeological findings and their interpretations, classical texts: Sanskrit, Tamil, etc. and the light they throw on ancient Indian history,, etc. 2. By and large, they all have great respect for and interest in Indian/Hindu culture/history/languages. 3. Nor do they (many of them) share the same kind or intensity of cultural affiliation or emotional attachment that most Hindus have, much less the anger and anguish that modern Hindus feel in the context of alien intrusions/invasions/occupations/exploitations, etc. that the Indian subcontinent has suffered over the ages. It is also unrealistic to expect them to have such feelings, any more than that we feel anything about the Roman occupation of Britain or the German Occupation of France. 4. Therefore, it seems to me that if they do not wish to get involved in our feelings, frustrations, and perspectives, we cannot compel them into this. Nor is it fair for us to be unpleasant in our disappointment or even anger, given that there is no indication that any of them harbors any ill-will towards our culture or heritage. 5. What some of us may fear most from all this, and what some other Hindus will probably welcome, is that in a few decades scholarly interest in India on the part of non-Hindu scholars might diminish considerably. Whether this will be for India's good or bad, only the future will tell. 6. In the meanwhile, if we are not welcome here, it is only fair that we should probably leave, as Mr. Tiwari wisely did. With best reards to all, V. V. Raman December 14, 2000 From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Thu Dec 14 23:42:12 2000 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 15:42:12 -0800 Subject: Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. Message-ID: <161227065417.23782.16473998378297677319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Raman, Many of us on this list, as you say, do not share the same kind or intensity of emotional and cultural involvement in these issues as do you and others, but we do hope strongly that India, after passing through its fire, will emerge with its principles intact. I am very much aware that mixing politics and religion in India is explosive, but this forum, within the limit of its defining purpose, I understand to operate on democratic principles. Which means that anyone recognized as a scholar in the field of Indology is entitled to voice any idea relating to Indology so long as he or she does so in a scholarly manner. As Dominik Wujastyk wrote elsewhere, the forum "has no editors": it does not ban ideas. The phrase, "in a scholarly manner," means that people qualified to post here must rely upon facts, reason, and reasonable inference, and must avoid insult, personal vilification, threats, and all other discourteous acts. The forms of courtesy are the oil in the social gears that keeps speech civil and temperate and the discussion of ideas possible. Hence, you should not draw the conclusion that you or others are unwelcome from the attempts of scholars to keep the subjects scholarly and the manner of speech scholarly, nor from the forum's openness to ideas. To the contrary, the forum has been generous and patient in its response to messages that violate these rules, in the main. The experience of Europe and America with ethnic and racial and religious issues is very recent, as is yours. We are not unaware that ideas can be explosive. It is not mere political correctness that insists on freedom of speech: it is the only thing that really works in problems of this kind, if one is also to safeguard of liberty. Otherwise, it simply becomes a question of whose bully boys are bigger. Violence is best answered by reason, not by avoiding the subject, and not by avoiding the forum. Not every person in every circumstance should say everything, nota bene, the current Babri Mosque affair. But if your deep social problems cannot be addressed openly and politely among scholars, you are closing the barn door after the horse has already bolted. Respectfully, David Salmon ----- Original Message ----- From: "V.V. Raman" To: Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 12:32 PM Subject: Re: Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. > 3. Nor do they (many of them) share the same kind or intensity of cultural > affiliation or emotional attachment that most Hindus have, much less the anger > and anguish that modern Hindus feel in the context of alien > intrusions/invasions/occupations/exploitations, etc. that the Indian > subcontinent has suffered over the ages. It is also unrealistic to expect them > to have such feelings, any more than that we feel anything about the Roman > occupation of Britain or the German Occupation of France. > 4. Therefore, it seems to me that if they do not wish to get involved in our > feelings, frustrations, and perspectives, we cannot compel them into this. Nor > is it fair for us to be unpleasant in our disappointment or even anger, given > that there is no indication that any of them harbors any ill-will towards our > culture or heritage. > 5. What some of us may fear most from all this, and what some other Hindus will > probably welcome, is that in a few decades scholarly interest in India on the > part of non-Hindu scholars might diminish considerably. Whether this will be > for India's good or bad, only the future will tell. > 6. In the meanwhile, if we are not welcome here, it is only fair that we should > probably leave, as Mr. Tiwari wisely did. > With best reards to all, > V. V. Raman > December 14, 2000 > > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 14 15:44:26 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 15:44:26 +0000 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065372.23782.13239479847813364129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry, this warning should have been sent for the attention of L. Suresh Kumar-LSK not Venkatraman Iyer, who was simply quoting the offending message with a polite header. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > > [...] > > It is time that we quit all these nonsense and work upon > > eradicating some major issues that still hinder our growth. > [...] > > This is a warning. Do not post messages which fall outside the scope of > INDOLOGY. > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 14 15:50:15 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 15:50:15 +0000 Subject: Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. In-Reply-To: <20001214154603.19575.qmail@web3405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065376.23782.9579279362482764022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Vikrant Shah wrote: > So the professionals on this list need to be told > what they should be doing... > what they should read.. > what should delete.. > what they should study.. > what they should think.. This is a warning. Do not post any more message that lie outside the scope of this list, or which are rude, even ironically. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ah14 at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Thu Dec 14 16:07:03 2000 From: ah14 at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (Satish K. Tiwary) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 16:07:03 +0000 Subject: Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065378.23782.11772912870478644940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear ListFuhrer I have been on this list only for 15 days or so, and I now know that only the western 'indologists', their Indian apologists, and people with vested interests against Indian civilization are welcome to this list. I also understand that you people are shocked that the 'objects' of your study seem to have found their tongues and backbones. So, before you graciously expel me, I am withdrawing from this list. I hope others who think like me will also do the same and leave you to your ivory tower. I know that it makes your life easy in the short run, but guess what? You guys are already obsolete, and it is just a matter of time before nature takes its course. Dont bother with your 'warning' message. Satish On 14 Dec 00, at 15:50, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Vikrant Shah wrote: > > > So the professionals on this list need to be told > > what they should be doing... > > what they should read.. > > what should delete.. > > what they should study.. > > what they should think.. > > This is a warning. Do not post any more message that lie outside the > scope of this list, or which are rude, even ironically. > > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. Satish K. Tiwary University of Edinburgh Edinburgh, UK From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 14 16:13:16 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 16:13:16 +0000 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065381.23782.4404606046508167547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The Shringeri Mutt was indeed looted by Raghunathrao Nilkanth, but the >motive was military and political more than doctrinal. I know this because >I happen to be a direct descendant of Raghunathrao. He wanted the >extradition of Tipu's men who had apparently sought and received asylum >inside the Mutt from the Shankaracharya. On receiving a refusal from the >conspiring Shankaracharya to his demand, he forced his way in and took >possession of the men and the loot they had carried with them. I wanted to respond to Rohan Oberoi, telling him to mention the Sringeri Sankaracharya Matha, so as to not leave his reference to Tipu Sultan incomplete. But you, Mr. Patwardhan, forget one important point, as did your ancestor. A man who sought asylum from a monastery was inviolate, so long as he stayed within the bounds of the institution. This is not much different from an analogous European situation, when people obtained refuge in Christian monasteries, which were then raided and looted by their pursuers. Granting refuge to anybody who asked for it was an ideal of the monastic view of life, and the Hindu monks did not discriminate against Muslim supplicants. There was no conspiracy on the part of the Sringeri Sankaracharya against the Hindu Marathas. He simply fulfilled his duty, and did what was right, without regard to consequences. If you think that a Hindu monk should have handed over a Muslim asylum-seeker to his political and military opponents, who just happened to be Hindus, you are fundamentally wrong. So also if you think that the monk's refusal excused the Hindu warrior's action of force against the monastery. Read the legends of Parasurama, Vasishtha, Viswamitra. dharmo rakshati rakshita.h. Those who care about protecting Hindu dharma today should first learn a little about basic dharma. And if you care to study your own family history in more detail, the Peshwas in Pune did not like the way Patwardhan dealt with the Sringeri temples. Letters of apology were written and a few reparations were made to the Sankaracharya by both Sultan and Peshwa. Historians like to quote Tipu's letters, because he was Muslim. The letters written by a Hindu ruler to a Hindu monk do not attract much attention. In fact, if you care to check the records, you will find that just a generation before Tipu, the Peshwa had invited the Sringeri Sankaracharyas to tour in the Maharashtra region. For a number of years within the same period of time, the Sringeri Sankaracharyas visited the kingdoms ruled by Peshwas, Bhonsales, Shindes and Holkars. As for Venkataraman Iyer's oh-so-innocent question, the Marathas who patronized the Kumbhakonam Matha, that has now grown into the Kanchi Matha, were from the Tanjavur collateral line, who were always at loggerheads with their cousins in Maharashtra proper. It is stupid to think that the Sringeri-Kanchi polarization was related to a conflict between a Muslim Sultan in Mysore and a Hindu Raja in Tanjavur. It is stupid to think that the Sringeri Sankaracharyas had somehow betrayed Hindus by behaving humanely with a Muslim. Pay attention to details, gentlemen. The devil is always in the details. Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK Thu Dec 14 15:34:23 2000 From: wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK (Christian K. Wedemeyer) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 16:34:23 +0100 Subject: More on "musical trees," etc. Message-ID: <161227065369.23782.8642797488094051688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, First of all, thank you for all the helpful suggestions. I apologize for the delay in my responding. I do indeed want to share more about this question, but my own interior data processor does not work as fast as the digital age technology found on my desk. I have been a bit swamped and have struggled to find the time to follow up all the helpful threads. Here is some more information for those interested and my thoughts on some of the suggestions. As before, I appreciate any feedback. In terms of context, this passage occurs in the second chapter of Aryadeva's _Caryaamelaapakapradiipa_, which work was a significant focus of my recent doctoral dissertation ("Vajrayana and its Doubles: A critical historiography, exposition, and translation of the Tantric works of Aryadeva," Columbia 1999). This text is (to my knowledge) the most thorough-going and important Indian source which describes a gradual process of Tantric yoga--the inspiration for later Tibetan compositions in the "progressive stages" genre, such as Tsong-kha-pa's _sNags-rim chen-mo_ and the like. In terms of date, the conventional wisdom (such as it is) would put it somewhere in the second half of the first millennium, though the indigenous tradition considers it to have been written in the first half of the first millennium (though there is some interesting ambiguity in these latter traditions). This second chapter is the "kaayaviveka" chapter, which treats of the process of eliminating the pride of ordinariness (praak.rtaaha.mkaara), by (among other strategies) breaking down the ordinary world and teaching that these are the jurisdiction (adhi.s.thaana--actually somewhat more than mere "jurisdiction," since the one who has jurisdiction actually *is* the thing in question) of the Five Tathaagata-s. Aryadeva thus breaks down the five aggregates (skandha), the four elements (dhaatu), the six sense media (aayatana), and the ten vital winds (vaayu) five-by-five. The passage in question is a dissection of one of the winds, the "re-moving" (vi-vaaha) wind. Aryadeva says, (in my old working translation) "(the wind called) 're-moving,' in collaboration with the aural media, performs the five-fold activities of sound. With regard to that, sounds inside the ear (kar.naabhyantare zabda.h) and head [and] hair sounds (zira.h-keza-zabdaz ca) are Vairocana's [jurisdiction]. Sounds of singing and stringed instruments (giita-tantrii-zabda) are Ratnasambhava's. Palatal, labial, and vocal sounds (taalvo.s.thavaak-zabda) are Amitaabha's. Instrumental music such as wooden [instruments], nadii, snapping of fingers, clapping, and drums (vanaspati-nady-uccha.taa-taala-murajaadi-vaadya-zabda) is Amoghasiddhi's. The peaceful and wrathful sounds of the syllable Huu.m (huu.mkaara-zaanta-raudra-zabda) are Ak.sobhya's jurisdiction." Now, regarding Stephen's valuable suggestion concerning an abhidharma reference: this is a very nice reading in many ways. Abhidharma is indeed the most likely source, since (as a former colleague of mine once quipped in a lighter moment) Vajrayaana commentaries are "like abhidharma on drugs." Further, having discussed it a bit, (my current colleague) Ken Zysk and I agreed that to list *five* members with an -aadi construction could be seen as a bit of an overkill. Thus, the notion that the -aadi is to be construed only with muraja is not at all unlikely. (Any comments from the grammarians out there on such use of -aadi would be appreciated.) A further question for Stephen, however: is Asanga's breakdown intended to be comprehensive (i.e. as a total analysis of sound) or is it partial (i.e. an analysis of percussive sounds alone)? If the latter is the case, it would fit well: in addition to the songs and strings of Ratnasambhava, and the vocal sounds of Amitaabha, the complete range of percussive sounds (i.e. those made by all natural percussion, those made by human self-percussion, and those made by impact of human parts on natural things) would fall under Amoghasiddhi. There may be some hope for the musicological interpretation, though. For in the above classification (on that reading) we see only vocal, string, and percussion. Thus, among the four kinds of vaadya (taata- or string, avanaddha- or skin-covered drus, su.sira- or wind, and ghana- or solid metal musics) only the first and second would be covered. This raises some difficulties. Consider this passage from S. Bandopadhyay's _Musical Instruments of India_ (Varanasi: Chaukhamba, 1980): "The instruments of wind, percussion, and stringed [sic] were represented by turva, baakura, naadi, and kanna.davii.naa, karkarii, vii.naa, and also dundubhi, bhuumidundubhi, and vanaspati respectively." This is said to be a breakdown of instruments mentioned in Vedic literature. So, vanaspati could be a wooden percussion instrument of some sort; "nady" could either be emended to read naadi (and thus be a wind instrument--perhaps a kind of flute?) or, as suggested by Daniela Rossella, read as nadii and interpreted as a kind of jala-taraNga (did these exist in the first millennium? Bandopadhyay suggests that they are quite ancient.) Furthermore, taala could be interpreted to mean cymbals, rather than clapping. Thus we would have: an old-fashioned wooden instrument (very possibly singed, or possibly percussive, but not including a skin membrane), a wind instrument, finger-snapping (?), cymbals (cf. Apte: taala = "a musical instrument made from bell metal"), and skin-membraned drums like the muraja. What do you think? This would provide full coverage of the four types of music: muraja representing avanaddha-vaadya, taala representing ghana-vaadya, naadi representing su.sira-vaadya, vanaspati representing taata-vaadya, and uccha.taa being another type of vaadya made with human hands. The major difficulty I see with this interpretation (besides the fact that it is so convoluted!) is that we already have tantrii-zabda under another category and so vanaspati as stringed instrument might be redundant. I apologize for going on at such length. I hope Dominik and all of you will be patient with me. Thanks again for all the assistance to date. Thanks in advance for any future comments on the above. Best, Christian Wedemeyer University of Copenhagen P.S. I am also interested that Narender Mohkamsing finds the rendering of ucchaTaa as "snapping of fingers" problematical. It does seem to be a weird expression. The recent edition of the CMP published by J. Pandey (Sarnath 2000) reads ucchaa.ta instead, but the manuscript clearly reads uccha.taa, which is attested in the _Dictionnaire Tib?tain-Sanscrit_ of Tshe-ring dBang-rgyal (published by J. Bacot, Paris 1930) as an equivalent of the Tibetan se gol (found in the Tibetan translation of the CMP), which unambiguously means "snapping of fingers." To my knowledge, this expression does not occur in other dictionaries (e.g. Monier Williams, Apte, etc.). Though this is obviously the reading of the Tibetan translators, can anyone make anything of ucchaa.ta in this context? -- * * * * * * * * * * Christian K. Wedemeyer, Ph.D. University Instructor of Tibetan Studies Department of Asian Studies Asien-Instituttet University of Copenhagen K?benhavns Universitet Leifsgade 33,5 Leifsgade 33,5 DK-2300 Copenhagen S 2300 K?benhavn S DENMARK DANMARK Phone: (45) 35 32 88 38 Fax: (45) 35 32 88 35 E-mail: wedemeyer at hum.ku.dk If e-mail fails, try: wedemeyer at spam.hum.ku.dk If that fails, try: ckw1 at columbia.edu From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 14 16:48:49 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 16:48:49 +0000 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065383.23782.10160934436066213145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Ganesan. This has been educative, but I couldn't find naalikam in the online Tamil lexicon, at http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/otl_search.html. nAL, nAl, nal etc. were listed, but nothing turned up under the spellings naalika, naalaka, nAlaka, nAlika, nor under the same entries with the letter m added at the end. >Gowda-Emeneau is right to point out -aNa in sAyaNa as Drav. >Do you think they are not Tamil? I think it is right to derive it from Dravidian roots. Emeneau and Gowda do cite Burnell and Cowell. But perhaps, it is not right to link -aNa to -aNNa as in elder brother? >ago. Has he? Foll. Burnell-Cowell, sAyaNa is Dravidian. >Note the tamil cognate cAy- = 'reclining', 'sleeping stretched >out the limbs'; Also, it has the meaning: to grow thin, to be The only problem is that k/c => z does not explain s in the name sAyaNa, which was never written as zAyaNa. Best regards, Vidyasankar _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From hindu108 at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 15 01:11:43 2000 From: hindu108 at YAHOO.COM (Akhilesh Jha) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 17:11:43 -0800 Subject: A hypothetical question Message-ID: <161227065432.23782.10174632484749259722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar, That would be a typical example of communist and pseudo-secular's method of supporting academia and of honoring Adi Shankara, Sanskrit and Bharatiya culture. I wonder why the list members are silent on this issue! Regards. Jha --- Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > Given the past discussions about appointment to > academic bodies, I hope > that this is not too far offline. > > What would the list members say if a person who does > not know Sanskrit > (say, in the weak sense of reading a page in 15-20 > minutes) is > (hypothetically) appointed as the vice-chancelor > (comparable to provost in > sone US universities) of something named ``... > Sanskrit University''? > > Regards > -Nath __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From dolenev at MAIL.RU Thu Dec 14 14:12:52 2000 From: dolenev at MAIL.RU (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 17:12:52 +0300 Subject: a question on Nageza's "SphotavAda" (translation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065367.23782.2177884056868848193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, is anybody of you aware of a translation of Nageza's "SphotavAda" into any European language(s)? The text was twice published, in the Adyar Library Bulletin and as a separate edition by V. Krishnamacharya, who also added his own commentary Subodhini, in 1946. Its summary is available in the fifth volume of Encylopaedia of Indian philosophies (1990). Very grateful in advance, sincerely yours, Dmitry Olenev From SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK Thu Dec 14 17:23:20 2000 From: SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK (John Brockington) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 17:23:20 +0000 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM Message-ID: <161227065393.23782.5411540469476923265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Simply on a point of information, may I state that, at the 11th World Sanskrit Conference in Turin in April, Professor Botto simply announced that CESMEO would undertake the publication of the Proceedings of the conference, without mention of the medium. The subsequent e-mail to participants was the first indication to me as much as to others that this was not to be in _Indologica Taurinensia_ (the official organ of the IASS) but in the form of a CD-ROM; there has certainly not been any formal consultation by CESMEO with the officials of IASS. Indeed, I have personally sent an e-mail expressing my disquiet about this development (to which I have yet to receive a reply) and have not offered my own paper for publication by this means. John Brockington (Secretary General of IASS) Professor J. L. Brockington Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies University of Edinburgh 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW U.K. tel: +131 650 4174 fax: +131 651 1258 From haridasc at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 15 01:42:12 2000 From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 17:42:12 -0800 Subject: Unpleasant quarrels Message-ID: <161227065434.23782.10063196121874095143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree almost 100%. Except for the last part. Forever? I think not. Unless of course Dominik has not disclosed himself fully.... --- Bjarte Kaldhol wrote: > Dear listmembers, > > Lynken Ghose wrote: "I am afraid that, even in > attempting to express > something, I may fall into the same trap as most > people do: creating one's > own form of fundamentalism." > > Is it really "fundamentalism" to ask for politeness > and good manners? Those > who are here just to quarrel should simply be > removed. I have for some > years been a member of a few academic lists and > witnessed a few disputes, > but nothing like the very unpleasant personal > attacks and insults on this > list. > > Even fundamentalists could be tolerated if they were > good-humoured. > > Regarding dispassionateness: Nobody can be totally > dispassionate. Passion > is a wonderful motive power and is often discernible > even in excellent > writers. Dry, academic contributions are not what I > ask for in order to > find this list interesting, and even mild irony > should be tolerated, but > please be polite and try to create some positive > sentiments from time to > time! We are all human beings and like to be cheered > up by smiling people. > As it is now, my door is banged open by rude people > shouting slogans and > swearwords every day, as if a war was going on. > > Dear listmembers, please remember that when you send > something to this > list, it will be there in the archive forever, with > your name attached to > it. > > Best wishes, > Bjarte Kaldhol, > Oslo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From l_s_k at NETZERO.NET Thu Dec 14 23:41:50 2000 From: l_s_k at NETZERO.NET (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 18:41:50 -0500 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065413.23782.5046518869228604998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is exactly the reason, why there is so much chaos due to the so-called-political-nature of some issues at stake. History, as I understand, was taught by people who had more weight on the left side of the scales, only to cover up or hush up a lot of issues which would potentially wake up the minds of millions of Indians. I now distinctly remember, my favourite history teacher (with whom I still have contacts), saying in the class, that she personally wondered why the history books are so biased. The latter issue - below - is not political. It is this hypocrisy so evident , is the cause of all political chaos. Do temples and mosques, as such, belong to any political party ? Is it not fair to ask how many temples have been destroyed during the so called 'glorious mughal rule' ? Did Akbar really practice what he preached - din-i-lahi ? If temples have been destroyed to build mosques, let us accept the historical truths as they are. No one, either on this list, or elsewhere, is going to raze all those mosques and start another bloodshed. How long can truth be suppressed ? How long can history be distorted ? Why is it always objected for a fair and open view of the Indian history of the past ? It is rather sad that the growth of Islam and Christianity, in India (and elsewhere), was upon and over the culture and traditions of India (and elsewhere). No history or study of ancient history (culture, traditions, languages, religion et al) is complete without a complete thorough investigation into the whole topic - this includes construction and destruction done in that time frame. Mr. GT, it is this kind of attitude, that would ruin the list further. All one needs to do, is have a 'free and frank discussion'. We all know what this means, when used as an euphemism. :-) [ too much infighting, differing in views, taking a long time to agree to come to a finality .... ] Why not discuss the issue in entirety and accept the past as it was ? In simple terms, one should be able to complete a table in the format suggested below. |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----| |Num.|State|Place|Monument_Name|Originally_Built_By|OBY_Year|Destroyed_By|DB _Year| |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----| | | | | | | | | | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----| | | | | | | | | | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----| | | | | | | | | | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----| | | | | | | | | | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----| On a side note, I do support the destruction of numerous small road-side temples and mosques and all other places of worship in all towns and cities in India, to facilitate better traffic. That does also mean, that there must be some record officially - as to why this was done, when it was done and how it was done - so that tomorrow, some leftist historian from JNU or elsewhere does not alter facts, that this was all done by a fascist regime. :-) - Suresh ----- Original Message ----- From: George Thompson To: Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 08:34 PM Subject: Re: Violence in Indian historical process > In a message dated 12/13/00 8:21:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, > subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > > > > Why is it ok to search for some hypothetical homeland of some > > hypothetical proto-language ? but not ok for Indians to know > > how many temples and mosques have been destroyed ? > > Briefly, because the former is hypothetical, whereas the latter is political. > Please try being more hypothetical and less political. Please. You are > ruining this list. > > George Thompson > _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From l_s_k at NETZERO.NET Thu Dec 14 23:57:01 2000 From: l_s_k at NETZERO.NET (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 18:57:01 -0500 Subject: Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. Message-ID: <161227065415.23782.10656067884496015290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear 'Satish K. Tiwary' Neither the list owner expelling you from the list nor your withdrawal will solve the problem . The real solution is to have an open minded free and fair, candid discussion. After all, none of the members of this list ever lived so long to see the destruction of temples in India by Muslims with their own eyes. :-) Just like what we discuss now is based on the works of the past historians of their respective time periods, the future historians also would judge us on our own writings - in book and in emails :-) - Suresh ----- Original Message ----- From: Satish K. Tiwary To: Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 11:07 AM Subject: Re: Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. > Dear ListFuhrer > > I have been on this list only for 15 days or so, and I now know that > only the western 'indologists', their Indian apologists, and people > with vested interests against Indian civilization are welcome to this > list. I also understand that you people are shocked that the > 'objects' of your study seem to have found their tongues and > backbones. > > So, before you graciously expel me, I am withdrawing from this list. > I hope others who think like me will also do the same and leave > you to your ivory tower. I know that it makes your life easy in the > short run, but guess what? You guys are already obsolete, and it is > just a matter of time before nature takes its course. > > Dont bother with your 'warning' message. > > Satish > On 14 Dec 00, at 15:50, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Vikrant Shah wrote: > > > > > So the professionals on this list need to be told > > > what they should be doing... > > > what they should read.. > > > what should delete.. > > > what they should study.. > > > what they should think.. > > > > This is a warning. Do not post any more message that lie outside the > > scope of this list, or which are rude, even ironically. > > > > > > -- > > Dominik Wujastyk > > Founder, INDOLOGY list. > > > Satish K. Tiwary > University of Edinburgh > Edinburgh, UK > _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From GthomGt at CS.COM Fri Dec 15 01:06:46 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 20:06:46 -0500 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065428.23782.10263284114986087783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reply to all those who did not like my response to Subrahmanya: Please re-read the recent post, well-argued and fair, of V. V. Raman, in order to understand the kind of person that I am. I am not interested in your crusades against your enemies. Your battles are not my battles. If you think, as the seriously deluded Subrahmanya thinks, that I am interested in subverting your revisions of history, then you are seriously deluded too. The point is that while I am indeed interested in Indian antiquity [i.e., Indology as defined by this list] I am not at all interested in your closed-minded, religious, nationalist, and often racist, versions of it. To insist, as I have done, that this is a scholarly list, is to insist that its members be open-minded, critical not only of one's enemies but especially of oneself, and to insist also that all members be disciplined enough to submit well-informed and well-reasoned posts. Furthermore, it is to insist that all members be prepared to yield to the well-informed and well-reasoned arguments.of one's interlocutors. Subrahmanya has never shown any inclination to do any of that. He is all bluster, no substance. I am willing and prepared to argue, vigorously, with any of you about the scholarly matters that matter to me. But I am not willing to waste my efforts on your petty and ultimately vicious religious wars. As the Vedic poet, in the heat of a brahmodya, said: e'tat tvA'tra pratimanvAno' asmi na' mAya'yA bhavasy u'ttaro ma't Best wishes to you all, George Thompson From GthomGt at CS.COM Fri Dec 15 01:08:48 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 20:08:48 -0500 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065430.23782.8838034739298350702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to call the List's attention to a pertinent article on this matter: "Temple desecration in pre-modern India," by RICHARD M. EATON the first part of which has appeared in the most recent issue of *Frontline* -- Volume 17 - Issue 25, Dec. 9 - 22, 2000 Many thanks to T. Mahadevan for calling it to my attention and suggesting that it be forwarded to the list. Best wishes, George Thompson From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 15 06:43:15 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 22:43:15 -0800 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065436.23782.7647671145291837067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Thanks, Ganesan. This has been educative, but I couldn't find > naalikam in the online Tamil lexicon, at > > http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/otl_search.html. > > nAL, nAl, nal etc. were listed, but nothing turned up under the > spellings naalika, naalaka, nAlaka, nAlika, nor under the same > entries with the letter m added at the end. nAlikam otl nAlikam nAlikam 01 1. lotus; 2. buffalo nAlikam otl nAlikam nAlikam 02 crow > > >Gowda-Emeneau is right to point out -aNa in sAyaNa as Drav. > >Do you think they are not Tamil? > > I think it is right to derive it from Dravidian roots. Emeneau > and Gowda do cite Burnell and Cowell. But perhaps, it is not > right to link -aNa to -aNNa as in elder brother? -aNa can be very authoritatively linked to -aNNa as in elder brother. DEDR # 131: Ta. aNNan.... Ka. aNNa, aNa = elder brother; respectful address to an older male Konda. ana elder brother; The aN- words for elder brother are derived from the Drav. root aN = upper DEDR #110: Ta. aNNal = great person; aNNam = palate, roof of mouth; aNNavi = teacher, director of theatrical performances. Ka. aNNe, aNNa, aNa = excellence, purity It is interesting to see from DEDR entries that onlyt Kannada seems to drop one of the double Ns. ... > > The only problem is that k/c => z does not explain s in > the name sAyaNa, which was never written as zAyaNa. A cursory look at the c-initial entries of DEDR shows that there are so many entries that have s- for non-Tamil languages. example: DER #2464: Ta. cAri = time, turn Ma. sAri = id. Ka. sAri, sAre = id. Te. sAri = id., repetition, occasion > > Best regards, > Vidyasankar Regards, P. Chandrasekaran __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Thu Dec 14 22:51:33 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 00 23:51:33 +0100 Subject: Unpleasant quarrels Message-ID: <161227065410.23782.12649622284360402955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, Lynken Ghose wrote: "I am afraid that, even in attempting to express something, I may fall into the same trap as most people do: creating one's own form of fundamentalism." Is it really "fundamentalism" to ask for politeness and good manners? Those who are here just to quarrel should simply be removed. I have for some years been a member of a few academic lists and witnessed a few disputes, but nothing like the very unpleasant personal attacks and insults on this list. Even fundamentalists could be tolerated if they were good-humoured. Regarding dispassionateness: Nobody can be totally dispassionate. Passion is a wonderful motive power and is often discernible even in excellent writers. Dry, academic contributions are not what I ask for in order to find this list interesting, and even mild irony should be tolerated, but please be polite and try to create some positive sentiments from time to time! We are all human beings and like to be cheered up by smiling people. As it is now, my door is banged open by rude people shouting slogans and swearwords every day, as if a war was going on. Dear listmembers, please remember that when you send something to this list, it will be there in the archive forever, with your name attached to it. Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol, Oslo From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Fri Dec 15 01:00:07 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 01:00:07 +0000 Subject: Gaya & Puri (Re: Violence in Indian historical process) Message-ID: <161227065424.23782.6353459130405489053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU wrote: >Among other themes, there are a >number of properties currently operating as temples which are quite >well documented to have been "looted" by Hindus from Buddhists (such >as the Mahabodhi temple at Bodh Gaya, or the 'Jagannatha' temple at >Puri) I'm not sure what "documented" and "looted" mean here. Mahabodhi temple certainly is Buddhist one (although it originates from the time before Buddhists could be separated from Hindus). Present structure was constructed by Brahmin Buddhists, as commanded by Shiva (I think) in a dream. When Tibetan monk Dharmaswamin visited Gaya in 1234, he found that the large Buddha idol had been walled up to preserve it from Turkish invaders. It appears to have been abandoned after that. It was sometime around 1590 that the possession of the ruined temple passed to the Shaivite mahantas, granted by the local rulers. The Jagannatha temple, as it is, was built as a Vaishnava temple. Originally built by Anantavarman Chodaganga (1078 - 1148), it was rebuilt by Ananga Bhima Deva in the year 1174. It is true that many scholars believe that it represents continuation of the Buddhist religious tradition. The sacred object, which is placed in a cavity of the wooden idol of Lord Jagannatha has not been seen in recent times, but people have guessed it to be shaligram, a Jain idol, a piece of Lord Krishna's bone or a Buddha's tooth. I am not aware of any indication that either of them were forcibly wrested from Buddhists. If there are, it would be interesting to know. Yashwant From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Dec 15 01:01:55 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 01:01:55 +0000 Subject: More on "musical trees," etc. Message-ID: <161227065426.23782.5640050221429425301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Christian K. Wedemeyer wrote: Is Asanga's breakdown intended to be comprehensive (i.e. as a total analysis of sound) or is it partial (i.e. an analysis of percussive sounds alone)? ****** I think that Asa`nga's and similar lists of examples for the three types of sounds according to Abhidharma theory must of necessity be intended only as a partial listing by way of illustration -- the important thing is the threefold grouping and not what is included in each group. But I agree that the context -- now it has been revealed -- makes this interpretation ambiguous. Certainly a straight reading of the meaning according to the Tibetan seems to fit this nicely. However, you also quote an attestation of "vanaspati" as a "musical instrument" so things may be a little more complicated as you suggest. Is Bandopadhyay implying that "vanaspati" is also a kind of percussion instrument since he links it with "dundubhi" and "bhuumidundubhi" ? I note that "vanaspati" also means a post, pillar or log but it is also a Vedic term for a [wooden?] receptacle used to hold the pressed Soma juice. All of these would lend themselves to the production of percussive sounds -- slotted log drums come to mind but I have also heard a recording with a wooden post used for percussive accompaniment by somebody who had pawned their drum, also open wooden bowls without membrane can be used musically or even a pestle & mortar. The context seems to suggest that "vanaspati" and "nadii" should be some kind of percussive devices or device if the pair are a compound. >> the manuscript clearly reads uccha.taa, which is attested in the _Dictionnaire Tib?tain-Sanscrit_ of Tshe-ring dBang-rgyal (published by J. Bacot, Paris 1930) as an equivalent of the Tibetan se gol (found in the Tibetan translation of the CMP), which unambiguously means "snapping of fingers. ****** Lokesh Candra also gives uccha.ta as the equivalent for "se-gol" in his Tib-Skt Dic and gives a reference to the Buddha-carita and several to another text he abbreviates as Udraa which I suppose stands for the "Udraaya.na-suutra" -- perhaps it might help to look at these texts just in case they parallel your selection of instruments. Apart from these, the Lalitavistara and the Mahaavastu might be worth a search -- the latter also names numerous instruments including something called a "na.t.ta". In a footnote to Vol I of the Mahaavastu (p135), Jones mentions five classes of instruments (pa~caa`ngikatulya) which he says is defined in the Vimaana-vatthu Commentary as "aatata, vitata, aatata-vitata, ghana and susira" -- could this be of any help ? You also wrote: > though the indigenous tradition considers it to have been written in the first half of the first millennium (though there is some interesting ambiguity in these latter traditions). Could you possibly elaborate --- off-list if necessary ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From hindu108 at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 15 10:57:13 2000 From: hindu108 at YAHOO.COM (Akhilesh Jha) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 02:57:13 -0800 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065446.23782.15155899140488644077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- George Thompson wrote: > In reply to all those who did not like my response > to Subrahmanya: > > Your battles are not my battles. Namaskar, No problem with that. But then please refrain from passing comments or judgements on others' battles. > The point is that while I am indeed interested in > Indian antiquity [i.e.,Indology as defined by this > list] I am not at all interested in your > closed-minded, religious, nationalist, and often > racist, versions of it. These are needless and erroneous judgements. Who are you to declare others version "closed-minded and racist"? Why should you then object when others call your version as colonial, obsolete, biased, recist and unscholarly? > To insist, as I have done, that this is a scholarly > list, is to insist that > its members be open-minded, critical not only of > one's enemies but especially > of oneself, and to insist also that all members be > disciplined enough to > submit well-informed and well-reasoned posts. > Furthermore, it is to insist > that all members be prepared to yield to the > well-informed and well-reasoned > arguments.of one's interlocutors. Practice what you preach. > Subrahmanya has never shown any > inclination to do any of that. He is all bluster, > no substance. Yet another judgement coming from ivory towers. Mean actions soon after preaching great words! > I am willing and prepared to argue, vigorously, with > any of you about the > scholarly matters that matter to me. But I am not > willing to waste my > efforts on your petty and ultimately vicious > religious wars. Nobody is forcing you to read anything and respond to that. Use DELETE botton and step aside from what you are not interested in. Regards. Jha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 15 14:03:29 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 06:03:29 -0800 Subject: Devaraja Message-ID: <161227065463.23782.16971091744804900418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vanbakkam Vijayaragavan wrote: <> I have no idea as to any vedic (?) precedent. But in reference to the Early Khmer, Dawee Daweewarn indicates the origin of the ?incarnation concept? of the Devaraaja to be ?a purely Vaiz.navite belief.? _Brahmanism in South-East Asia (from the earliest time to 1445 AD)_ (1982), 34. However, he does not elaborate. << It is also said by some historians that the ultimate conquest of one king by another king used to be carrying away (not desecrating) the royal image /deity symbolising the annexation of that principality? Is this devaraja concept an innovation of medievel India/ South east asia (i.e. post 3rd C Ad) without precedents or ritual support?>> Among the Khmer was quasi-historically introduced to the in the 802 CE by Hira.nyadaama, a wandering braahma.n priest of ?presumed Indian birth.? Still, as it developed at Angkor, it seems to be entirely a politicized form of ?aivism. The rites of the Devaraja (lit. ?divine ruler?) established the king as a cakravartin, or Lord of the World. The role of the linga is a little complex. Examining how this rite changed when it was adopted by the neighboring Siamese from, say, the 13th century is also interesting. What is the direction of your inquiry? VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Dec 15 01:02:04 2000 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 06:32:04 +0530 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065422.23782.13918617203668654601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:48 PM 12/14/00 +0000, Vidyasankar wrote: >Thanks, Ganesan. This has been educative, but I couldn't find >naalikam in the online Tamil lexicon, at > >http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/otl_search.html. > >nAL, nAl, nal etc. were listed, but nothing turned up under the >spellings naalika, naalaka, nAlaka, nAlika, nor under the same >entries with the letter m added at the end. Please Check "Tamil-Tamil Akaramuthali" edited by "mu. caNmukam piLLai", published by the Tamilnadu Textbook Society in the year 1985. There is an entry " nAlikam = erumai, kAkam, thAmarai" Also please read the wonderful book "yA" by "aruLi" of Tanjore Tamil University. Here, the etymology of yA>yAl>njAl>njAL>nAL is treated exhaustively. This book treats many words starting with the roots related to "dark, black" etc. It is also a pleasure hearing aruLi. His scholarship is remarkable. With regards, RM.Krishnan From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Fri Dec 15 12:39:01 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 07:39:01 -0500 Subject: Unpleasant quarrels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065457.23782.15918513819461901703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. Mr. Kumar's posting yesterday was thoughtful, reasonable, and calmly articulate. 2. My only question is: Could it be that these (Exo-Indology) folks are getting upset because they started this group with an entirely different purpose?: To study etymology, linguistics, ancient documents, etc., and not to explore Hindu-Muslim antagonism? The founder and others have made it quite clear they don't regard those matters as coming under the theme of Indology. We can't really blame people for choosing to study something, and not something else, can we? 3. Given that, would it perhaps be a good idea to start a separate listserve or e-group which explores Indian history from say, 700 CE? [Perhaps something like that already exists. I don't know.] This would leave these basically decent people in peace: to pursue their lively exchanges in the several possible origins and nuances of the word NArAyaNa, whether the Tamils thought their God was black or blue, how the horse was called in proto-Hittite or whatever, whether the Skandapurana was Skanda, Kanda or Scandinavian, and such other esoteric, if (for some of us) not so exciting topics, rather than debate about whether Babur demolished the Ayodhya temple out of sheer malice, or because he liked the place, and what can be done about the matter, and whether the RSS or the VHP is serving the cause of Hinduism better. 4. There are botanists who study every leaf-form and twig slice. Then there are ecologists who are concerned about rain forests. Perhaps both groups serve a purose. Indeed, their subject matters are inter-related, and they could even throw light on each other's interests. The crypto-botanists, armed with their microscopes and source books, feel (rightly or wrongly) that all this screaming about ecological disaster may or may not be justified, and are pleading with us to please not do that that in their serene laboratories, and they don't want to have anything to do with the very concerned ecologists. What can we do? 5. On a slightly different note, to me, an old-timer, there is an irony in what is happening in these exchanges on the role of the Moguls in India. When I was in high school, many long decades ago, my very nationalistic history teacher used to tell us that the British grossly exaggerated the negative impacts of Mogul rule in India in order to create a division between Hindus and Muslims for their own selfish interest, when, in fact, the two groups had been living in peace and harmony for centuries. And now.... 6. History is not, it never has been, a recalling of facts from the past, but an interpretation, sometimes calm, sometimes passionate, but always fascinating, of recorded and reported events, and it sometimes serves to inspire pride and joy, sometimes to anger and resentment too. V. V. Raman December 15, 2000 From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Fri Dec 15 08:32:35 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 08:32:35 +0000 Subject: Unpleasant quarrels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065438.23782.10429904090283670370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree with Bjarte Kaldhol. It's becoming a rather disagreeable chore, rather than a pleasure, to open the Indology email. >Is it really "fundamentalism" to ask for politeness and good manners? ........ >please be polite and try to create some positive sentiments from time to >time! We are all human beings and like to be cheered up by smiling people. >As it is now, my door is banged open by rude people shouting slogans and >swearwords every day, as if a war was going on. > >Dear listmembers, please remember that when you send something to this >list, it will be there in the archive forever, with your name attached to >it. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Dec 15 08:36:24 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 08:36:24 +0000 Subject: Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. In-Reply-To: <200012141608.QAA01404@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227065440.23782.8861128053073960625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Tiwary, Your new message is intended to be insulting, and this list was not designed for insults, but for the discussion of classical Indian culture and language. I have issued one warning to you already, and you responded with this new off-subject posting. You have apparently not, in fact, left the list, so I am now cancelling your subscription. In the words of the currently popular TV game show, "Goodbye". On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Satish K. Tiwary wrote: > Dear ListFuhrer > > So, before you graciously expel me, I am withdrawing from this list. [...] -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Dec 15 08:44:37 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 08:44:37 +0000 Subject: [Re:] Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. In-Reply-To: <44059573.976822233512.JavaMail.Administrator@hvwww5> Message-ID: <161227065442.23782.2837366614354591400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Ramesh Patnaikuni wrote: > Yo Nazi man stop talking your bullshit let all participants I will not tolerate swearing on this list, nor the insulting language and tone of your posting. I am cancelling your subscription forthwith. "Goodbye". -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 15 08:50:34 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 08:50:34 +0000 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065419.23782.13769854667104447618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >This has been educative, but I couldn't find >naalikam in the online Tamil lexicon, at >http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/otl_search.html. Search for "nAlikam", three items will pop up. One entry will be: *otl nAlikam nAlikam 02 crow* nAlikam = kaakkai is a common item in Tamil dictionaries in print as well. As you know, nAlikam = water buffalo both in Tamil and Sanskrit. >But perhaps, it is not right to link -aNa to -aNNa as in elder brother? Why not??? There more semantic field for the tamil root aN-, not just elder brother. I already gave: <<< -aNa like tamil -aNan is Dravidian; Names like MuttaNan, RaamaNan, KaruppaNan, RangaNan, PeriyaNan, Cin2n2aNan, PaccaiyaNan, KongaNan, CembaNan, ... are common tamil male names. If one wants an attestation prior to sAyaNa (which is an 'akam'/'interior' name and, maadhava which is a 'puRam'/ 'exterior' name, if Burnell-Cowell theory is correct) consult CilappatikAram. The aTiyArkku nallAr wrote his commentary under the patronage of "poppaNa kAGkEyan" . Without aTiyArkku-nallAr's work, we would have missed precious lot on ancient Tamil music, ATiyArkkunallAr thanks PoppaNan profusely in the pAyiram: "kURRait tavirttu aruL poppaNa kAGkEyarkOn2 aLitta cORRuc cerukku allavO tamiz mUn2Ru urai colvittatE!" In literature, pAmpaNan/pAppaNan/poppaNan can be found. pAppu/pAmpu/poppu all refer to snake, and hence these names refer to Shiva Nagalamkarar. >>> The root, aN- means "upper, elder, high" etc. in Tamil. >?From Kampan, an usage where "aNa" is used. There are several centuries older references than Kamban as well. Ar, aNA! un2 uyirai, ajncAtE, kONTu akan2RAr? atu elAm niRka, mAran2Ar vali ATTam tavirntArO? kuLirntAn2O, matiyam en2pAn2? 'kollAta maittun2an2aik kon2RAy" en2Ru atukuRittuk koTumai cUzntu, pallAlE itaz atukkum koTumpAvi neTumpArap pakai tIrntALO? -------------- Few other questions in my mind that I need help from Indologists are: Is "nAra" as 'water' a well attested IIr, IE word? If so, what are the cognates? Or, it is just that "nAra" = water was "invented" to give a theological explanation to explain nArAyaNa as from water? If you can, pl. explain what Emeneau says on the word sAi as in sAi bAbA. But Puttaparthi is an incarnation of older Shirdi Saibaba, no?? Then, sAi in sAibaba is from the north India. Are there attestations in old Kannada for svAmi as sAi? Are they cited by Gowda-Emeneau? Usually, in tamil jaina works, (who had contacts with Kannada lands), svAmi is rendered cAmi, and never as "sAi". Kannada usage would be parallel, isn't it? Also, where can I find Burnell's forward for vamsha-brahmana? Who wrote/edited that book? Is it in any library with Burnell's foreward? Is vamsha brahmana published in a book form? or, as an article? (about 150 years ago.) Regards, N. Ganesan _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Dec 15 08:51:10 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 08:51:10 +0000 Subject: Violence, 'threats to culture', etc. In-Reply-To: <01JXP6W90AGKTOTPKX@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> Message-ID: <161227065444.23782.17285872246215054600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No, I'm sorry Raman, but you are wrong on one point. On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, V.V. Raman wrote: > 1. The Indology group was formed by scholars [...] This forum was founded by me, Dominik, personally, by myself. If people have criticisms or comments about the founding orientation and management of the list, then they all lie at my door. Because I founded this forum, I take a high-handed and dirigiste attitude to its management and direction (when I have time). Nowadays it is trivially easy to found a listserv group (which was not the case a decade ago, incidentally), so anyone who doesn't like the orientation of this list can so very easily go elsewhere for more congenial conversation. I have no quibble with the remainder of your remarks. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 15 17:26:35 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 09:26:35 -0800 Subject: (fwd) Hi-tech Folklore Message-ID: <161227065473.23782.7769299311460872237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > From: Eric Miller > Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 01:55:37 -0500 (EST) > > I know this is a bit off-subject, but I just finished > writing a paper on the history of the study of folklore > in Tamil Nadu, and I would be very grateful for any > corrections and other feedback. The paper is at > > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~emiller/TamilFolkloreStudies.html > > One of the questions of my dissertation will ask is: > Is it possible for folk performance to occur via > interactive telecommunication (especially videoconferencing)? > > > Mentioned in the paper is an article by another scholar > about Oppari (lament singing); that article has been e-published > in an e-journal by the name, _Ethnomusicology Online_. The > article, which includes audio clips recorded in a small > village, can be found at > > http://www.research.umbc.edu/efhm/5/greene > > > Thank you! > > - Eric > Folklore Ph.D. student, U. of Pennsylvania, USA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From dasa at ONE.NET.AU Thu Dec 14 22:30:41 2000 From: dasa at ONE.NET.AU (Ramadas) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 09:30:41 +1100 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065408.23782.75733142008608773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Briefly, because the former is hypothetical, whereas the latter is political. > Please try being more hypothetical and less political. Please. You are > ruining this list. Dear George, In school we learnt, endlessly, it seemed, about the history of Britain. About invasions, conquests, decimation of populations because of the same, and so on. About the conflicts between the royal houses [war of roses etc]. About the religious persecutions of the reformation. About the destruction of churches, and so on. But when it comes to Indian history, yourself, and others, say that such study is not history but politics. To my humble perception, it is your, and others, statements saying not to investigate the Indian historical past, that are political. It is strange that a place designed to share knowledge on *Indology* is not allowed to do same. The Mogul and Muslim invasions and conquests cannot be swept under the carpet and forgotten about, just as the conquests and invasions in your history cannot be forgotten about. Best wishes for the coming new year Ramadas From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Dec 15 14:37:10 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 09:37:10 -0500 Subject: Early German work on Indian myths - help for ID Message-ID: <161227065465.23782.10670092161398043591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Klaus for help with this. Allen From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 15 17:50:05 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 09:50:05 -0800 Subject: white as unblemish Message-ID: <161227065475.23782.14264633188932151626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V. V. Raman wrote: >Dr. Kochhar wrote: > 1. I think this is an important statement. >Then one might ask, <"What does black represent?" [snip] >3. Then again, it is rather doubtful that light-colored people and dark-colored >people had the same feelings/interpretations about the different skin colors. >4. From an understanding of this as seen in ancient literature, it might be >possible to conclude with some certainty whether there was a cultural/ethnic >difference at some time in history between the Northern (Sanskritic) and the >Southern (Tamil-speaking) peoples. It is not just Tamil-speaking peoples, most Indian peoples are different shades of brown and black, and more so when we look at the so called low castes and untouchables. -------------------- Earlier words about Indology's future: << 3. I acted like the messenger who came to Versailles to inform Marie Antoinette while she was regaling that trouble was brewing in the heart of Paris. I am aware that I have inadvertently distracted you from your main focus, for which I apologize. For this offense, one member of this group politely asked me to leave. I will honor his request. - V.V.Raman, November 16, 2000 >> What happened then? Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 15 16:16:43 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 11:16:43 -0500 Subject: Book announcement: First publication from the BMSC Project Message-ID: <161227065467.23782.4013298785102659705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I forward here the announcment of a new publication. I myself have seen a copy, and can assure our Indological colleagues--those interested in philology, anyway, rather than polemics--that this is a book you will want to have. If nothing else, the very names of the contributors guarantee the highest quality. Please also make sure that your library orders a copy; the continuation of the series very much depends on the success of vol. 1 (I mean commercially; the scholarly success is assured). The book can be ordered through the email included in the message below: > >Dear list members, > >We are pleased to announce that the first publication from the BMSC (Buddhist >Manuscripts in the Schoyen Collection) Project has just been released as >follows: > >"Manuscripts in the Schoyen Collection-1 (Buddhist Manuscripts, Vol.1)", >Ed. by Jens Braarvig (general ed.), Jens-Uwe Hartmann, Kazunobu Matsuda >and Lore Sander, Hermes Publishing (Oslo 2000), pp.328 + 40 color plates. > >Contents and Contributors to this volume: > >1. The 8,000 lines Prajnaparamita in Kusana Brahmi script (L. Sander) >2. Camgi-sutra of the Mahasamghika in Gupta Brahmi script (Torkel Brekke) >3. Mahayanasutras in Gupta Brahmi script: > 3-1. Srimaladevi-simhanada-nirdesa-sutra (K. Matsuda) > 3-2. Mahayana version of Pravarana-sutra (K. Matsuda) > 3-3. Sarva-dharma-apravritti-nirdesa-sutra (J. Braarvig) > 3-4. Ajatasatru-kaukrtya-vinodana-sutra (Paul Harrison & J.-U. Hartmann) >4. Fragments from the Asoka Legend in Gupta Brahmi script (Klaus Wille) >5. Pratimoksa-Vibhanga of the Mahasamghika-Vinaya in Gilgit/Bamiyan > Type I script (Seishi Karashima) >6. Gandhari version of Mahaparinirvana-sutra (Agama MPS) in Kharosthi > script (Mark Allon & Richard Salomon) >7. A Bactrian Buddhist Manuscript (Nicholas Sims-Williams) >Appendix: > A Paleographical Analysis of the Brahmi Manuscripts in this > Volume (L. Sander) > >The Schoyen Collection, Norway, has recently acquired over >10,000 fragments of Buddhist manuscripts from Bamiyan Valley, Afghanistan. >In order to study and publish these fragments, the BMSC project was formed. >This is the first result of the project. > >The volume can be ordered from the publisher by e-mail , >or contact Professor Jens Braarvig directly (the price is US$ 90 >plus postage). > >The next volume is expected in two years. > >With best wishes from BMSC Project members: > >Prof. Jens Braarvig (Oslo): jens.braarvig at iks.uio.no >Prof. Jens-Uwe Hartmann (Munich): juhartmann at lrz.uni-muenchen.de >Prof. Kazunobu Matsuda (Kyoto): matsuda at mbox.kyoto-inet.or.jp >Dr. Lore Sander (Berlin): lore.sander at t-online.de Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 15 11:32:06 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 11:32:06 +0000 Subject: Violence in Indian historical process Message-ID: <161227065448.23782.1962276993367838390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >No problem with that. But then please refrain from >passing comments or judgements on others' battles. ... >Yet another judgement coming from ivory towers. Mean >actions soon after preaching great words! 1. Not all battles need to be fought on all fronts. Certainly, there is merit to the position that this discussion could be kept out of this list, especially in relation to Ayodhya. 2. Sometimes, ivory towers are useful. Educational institutions are often such things, by necessity. I think the inhabitants need to get out more, but leave them to do it in their own sweet time. Not much is lost in the process. Meanwhile, an article from the newest issue of Frontline has already been referenced - "Temple desecration in pre-modern India," by RICHARD M. EATON Volume 17 - Issue 25, Dec. 9 - 22, 2000 Visit http://www.frontlineonline.com, and read it online. After reading it, dear reader, do take a look at the letters section. There is a minor matter to do with the now infamous horse, but more importantly, read the letter by C. V. Narasimhan, a former UN official, in response to an earlier article about Tibet in the same magazine. Like it or not, there is politics everywhere, but I wonder how many list members would find themselves nodding their heads in agreement with Narasimhan or with the authors of the older articles that he praises to the skies. Vidyasankar From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 15 16:48:56 2000 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 11:48:56 -0500 Subject: A hypothetical question Message-ID: <161227065469.23782.8539853371331925075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Jha: Your point is not clear. What does the term "pseudo-secular" mean? If you are going to post something, please make your manner of expression as clear as possible; otherwise it makes for very difficult reading and has no elucidating effect at all. Lynken Ghose >From: Akhilesh Jha >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: A hypothetical question >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:11:43 -0800 > >Namaskar, > >That would be a typical example of communist and >pseudo-secular's method of supporting academia and >of honoring Adi Shankara, Sanskrit and Bharatiya >culture. > >I wonder why the list members are silent on this >issue! > >Regards. >Jha > >--- Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > Given the past discussions about appointment to > > academic bodies, I hope > > that this is not too far offline. > > > > What would the list members say if a person who does > > not know Sanskrit > > (say, in the weak sense of reading a page in 15-20 > > minutes) is > > (hypothetically) appointed as the vice-chancelor > > (comparable to provost in > > sone US universities) of something named ``... > > Sanskrit University''? > > > > Regards > > -Nath > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. >http://shopping.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 15 12:09:55 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 12:09:55 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065452.23782.16579822931416018412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Salmon wrote: <<< However, the contrast between light and darkness is not racial nor immutably associated with particular peoples or regions. I am not aware of any reference that equates dark skin with evil. Rather, the contrast is between righteousness and evil, which applies as behavior and beliefs would warrant. (To justify holding Africans as slaves, American slaveholders used to rely on Genesis 9:25-27, in which Noah cursed Canaan, his grandson, to be slaves of his son Shem, because Ham, Canaan's father, had seen Noah's nakedness. Canaan and his descendants, however, were not black nor located in Africa.) The RV references seem much more racially focused, although it may be that the darker indigenous peoples were initially regarded as evil because of practices that the composers of the RV found morally abhorrent. >>> The ancient Hebrews might not have had much prejudice on black. The Song of Songs suggest a date after exile. Although it is attributed to Solomon, this could just be a usual literary device common in the ancient East including India. The first portions of the Song of Songs must have incorporated lyrics much more ancient in time. Song of Songs (NIV) ------------------- Dark am I, yet lovely, O daughters of Jerusalem, dark like the tents of Kedar, like the tent curtains of Solomon. (1:5) Do not stare at me because I am dark, because I am darkened by the sun. [...] (1:6) Does the light versus darkness dualism begin in O.T when the authors were in Babylon? I found a reference that might address this question: Birgit Langer, Gott als "licht" in Israel und Mesopotamien : eine studie zu Jes. 60, 1-3, 19 Klosterneuburg : ?sterreichisches Katholisches Bibelwerk, 1989. Jeremiah (~ 645-582 B.C). lived in Babylon for a good part of his life. He uses a lot of light against darkness theme. He writes that skin color is given by God, the context and adjoining lines seem to indicate the prejudice: Can the Ethiopian[a] change his skin or the leopard its spots? Jer 13:23 (NIV) [a]: Cushite. Black, white or pitting them against, is not found in Jeremiah. Regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Fri Dec 15 12:28:02 2000 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 12:28:02 +0000 Subject: Temple desecration in pre-modern India Message-ID: <161227065454.23782.17838917187455265304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Having read the first part of the two-part article on Temple desecration in pre-modern India, without going into depth into the scholarship, I aver that it is not going to be the last word on the subject. The logic is circular. First the author gives us a carefully constructed set of temple desecrations. The problems therein are that he does not distinguish between "capturing your library and moving its books to mine" and "burning down your library". The set of events given occur only in the geographic area that is modern India -- as though no temple or stupa destructions took place in what is now Pakistan or Afghanistan. He omits cases such as Multan (menioned in Albiruni). Second, the author argues that the reasons for these temple desecrations was political, aimed at undermining the authority of the vanquished ruler; and economic, and not religious. Leaving aside the first objection, this is the point that the author wants to prove; and even a few counter-examples, where such a political motive cannot be demonstrated disproves his case. Third, the author takes his proposition as proven, and examines, e.g., the case of Babri Masjid in Ayodhya. Since Babur could not have had the political or economic motive that underlies all temple desecrations, as the author proposes, the author argues that Babur could not have demolished a temple there. But, actually, if Babur had demolished a temple in Ayodhya, it undermines the author's proposition completely. Impeccable scholarship cannot compensate for weak reasoning. Perhaps Frontline articles are the beginning of a trend, [ a trend welcome to me, whatever the message of the articles] of an increased engagement of Western scholars with the Indian English magazine-reading public. I can only hope that they will extend this to Pakistan and Sri Lanka as well. Best regards, -Arun Gupta From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Fri Dec 15 12:33:39 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 12:33:39 +0000 Subject: Devaraja Message-ID: <161227065456.23782.10542923106312203287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the vedic precedents conceptually and ritually of the concept of 'devaraja' which came to be a premier medievel Hindu mode of politico- religious authority in India and more so in south east asia? It is also said by some historians that the ultimate conquest of one king by another king used to be carrying away (not desecrating) the royal image /deity symbolising the annexation of that principality? Is this devaraja concept an innovation of medievel India/ South east asia (i.e. post 3rd C Ad) without precedents or ritual support? From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Fri Dec 15 18:08:13 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 13:08:13 -0500 Subject: white as unblemish In-Reply-To: <20001215175005.16182.qmail@web313.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065477.23782.11705147000328855228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a perfectly valid question: Translation: Why didn't I keep my promise to shut up? Answer: A number of bona fide members of the group asked me publicly and privately not to get out abruptly, but stay on and give my two cents worth now and again, even if some people object. But don't worry. I won't be here for long. Best regards, VVRaman From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 15 18:13:08 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 13:13:08 -0500 Subject: new publication Message-ID: <161227065479.23782.17978166405545211650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am happy to announce the publication of: Wisdom, Compassion, and the Search for Understanding: The Buddhist Studies Legacy of Gadjin M. Nagao Edited by Jonathan A. Silk University of Hawai'i Press, Honolulu, 2000 ISBN: 0-8248-2086-X Contents Preface vii A Short Biographical Sketch of Professor Gadjin Masato Nagao xi A Bibliography of the Publications of Gadjin M. Nagao (Through 1996) xxvii ____________________________________________ Gadjin M. Nagao The Bodhisattva's Compassion Described in the Mah?y?na-s?tr?la?k?ra 1 Noritoshi Aramaki Toward an Understanding of the Vij?aptim?trat? 39 Mark L. Blum Sam?dhi in H?nen's Hermeneutic of Practice and Faith: Assessing the Sammai hottokki 61 Luis O. G?mez Two Jars on Two Tables: Reflections on the "Two Truths" 95 Masaaki Hattori Dign?ga's Theory of Meaning: An Annotated Translation of the Pram??asamuccayav?tti : Chapter V: Any?poha-par?k ? (I) 137 Masamichi Ichig? ??ntarak ita and Bh?viveka as Opponents of the M?dhyamika in the Madhyamak?loka 147 J. W. de Jong The Buddha and His Teachings 171 Y?ichi Kajiyama Buddhist Cosmology as Presented in the Yog?c?rabh?mi 183 Sh?ry? Katsura N?g?rjuna and the Tetralemma (Catu ko?i) 201 Leslie Kawamura The Middle Path According to the K??yapaparivarta-s?tra 221 Katsumi Mimaki J??nas?rasamuccaya kk? 20-28: Mise au point with a Sanskrit Manuscript 233 Lambert Schmithausen On Three Yog?c?rabh?mi Passages Mentioning the Three Svabh?vas or Lak a?as 245 Jonathan A. Silk The Yog?c?ra Bhik u 265 Ernst Steinkellner Manuscript Fragments, Texts, and Inscriptions in the Temple of Tabo: An Interim Report with Bibliography 315 Jikid? Takasaki Sa?s?ra eva nirv??am 333 Teruyoshi Tanji On Sam?ropa: Probing the Relationship of the Buddha's Silence and His Teaching 347 Meiji Yamada Buddhist Liberation and Birth in the Heavens: The Significance of the Earliest Buddhist Icons Found among Grave Objects in China's Yangtze River Region 369 Akira Yuyama Toward a New Edition of the Fan-y? Tsa-ming of Li-yen 397 Index 413 Contributors 421 Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Fri Dec 15 11:38:50 2000 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 13:38:50 +0200 Subject: Early German work on Indian myths - help for ID Message-ID: <161227065450.23782.11041820031755923762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen W Thrasher wrote: > > We are acquiring a volume in German consisting entirely of > illustrations of Indian mythology. From the style I would expect it to > be from the late 18th or early 19th c. The 7 tables are numbered > i-iii, i-iv. The script is Roman, not Fraktur. They are from Niklas M?ller: Glauben, Wissen und Kunst der alten Hindus in urspr?nglicher Gestalt und im Gewande der Symbolik, mit vergleichenden Seitenblicken auf die Symbolmythe der ber?hmteren V?lker der alten Welt, mit hieher geh?riger Literatur und Linguistik. Erster Band. XXX+630 p. Mainz 1822. It was reprinted in East Germany (Leipzig 1968) and this reprint was once given to me by a student, who wisely noted that this is not a book to learn Indian mythology. The plates are an unbound supplement to the volume. There is also a Nachscrift about the author, earlier published in the Buddhist Yearly 1966, 9-18. Regards Klaus -- Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography Institute of Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094 From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Dec 15 22:03:06 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 14:03:06 -0800 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065483.23782.12762163082978814796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:25 PM 12/13/2000 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: >Are there any shlokams from >Sanskrit texts where Narayana is said to be white? It is very common in Sanskrit texts to associate NArAyaNa's color with the different yugas. He is white in KRta and black in Kali. The obvious implication is that white is the best color and black the worst. See the MahAbhArata, 3.148.16, 23, 26, 33 and 3.187.31. This is also stated by BhAsa at the very the beginning of his BAlacarita (where it is said that NArAyaNa's body was the color of milk or conch in the KRta Yuga -zaGkha-kSIra-vapus). This idea is then repeated in later PurANas. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From gabriele.zeller at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE Fri Dec 15 13:03:23 2000 From: gabriele.zeller at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (Gabriele Zeller) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 14:03:23 +0100 Subject: UBT-NEWS-L: Inkunabel-Katalog Message-ID: <161227065459.23782.13894550715557724566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ueber die Homepage der UB ist jetzt der Inkunabel-Katalog Baden-Wuerttemberg + Greifswald mit etwa 17000 Eintraegen erreichbar: http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ub/kata/inkun.htm Seit ca. 10 Jahren werden in Baden-Wuerttemberg Inkunabeln mit TUSTEP katalogisiert. Begonnen wurde mit den Inkunabeln der Dioezese Rottenburg-Stuttgart (Schwerpunkt: Tuebinger Wilhelmsstift); der gedruckte Katalog ist 1993 bei Harrassowitz erschienen. Es folgte der Katalog des Ludwig-Wilhelm-Gymnasiums Rastatt (1999) und der Katalog der Inkunabeln in Greifswalder Bibliotheken (1998). In Bearbeitung befinden sich die Kataloge UB Heidelberg, Badische Landesbibliothek Karlsruhe, Suso-Gymnasium Konstanz, UB Mannheim, Wuerttembergische Landesbibliothek Stuttgart und UB Tuebingen. In diesen Katalogen liegt der Schwerpunkt auf der Exemplarbeschreibung - Herkunft, Einband, handschriftliche Vermerke, Buchmalerei -, weil die exakten bibliographischen Beschreibungen im allgemeinen in den Inkunabelbibliographien vorliegen, auf die verwiesen wird. In jedem Bestand gibt es jedoch Inkunabeln, die noch nirgends bibliographisch beschrieben sind. Diese erhalten dann ihre genaue Beschreibung in unseren Katalogen. Dr. Friedrich Seck / Ulrike Mehringer From gabriele.zeller at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE Fri Dec 15 13:24:48 2000 From: gabriele.zeller at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (Gabriele Zeller) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 14:24:48 +0100 Subject: sorry for wrong mail Message-ID: <161227065461.23782.14640042965247613590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please excuse my last message. It should have gone to a different list! Regretfully, yours Gabriele ---------------------------------------------------------- Dr Gabriele Zeller Universit?tsbibliothek T?bingen Wilhelmstr. 32 72016 T?bingen Tel:+49-7071-2974030 Fax:+49-7071-293123 http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ub ---------------------------------------------------------- From hindu108 at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 16 00:40:44 2000 From: hindu108 at YAHOO.COM (Akhilesh Jha) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 16:40:44 -0800 Subject: A hypothetical question Message-ID: <161227065495.23782.389737174497568696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar Sri Ghose, I wonder if I should define the words, such as pseudo-secular, that can be referred easily to any dictionary? However, I am sorry if my expressions are not so clear. Let me know where you require further explanations and I would do my best to explain. In the present thread, a question was asked, ?What would the list members say if a person who does not know Sanskrit (say, in the weak sense of reading a page in 15-20 minutes) is (hypothetically) appointed as the vice-chancelor (comparable to provost in sone US universities) of something named ``... Sanskrit University''?? I thought that this question was not so hypothetical because I have recently read in the news that K.N. Pannikar, the well known communist historian, has been appointed vice- chancellor of the Adi Shankara Sanskrit University in Kaladi, Kerala by the communist government of that state. They don?t care whether and how this man, who knows no or very little Sanskrit and is known to have no respect for anything Hindu would serve a Sanskrit University named after Adi Shankara. All they care is that their man, K. N. Pannikar, severs their ideology and might change one more academic institution into a communist bastion. >?From this and earlier experiences I believe that Indian communists and those who shout from their rooftops that they are secular, but actually are not, do exactly such absurd things ? appointing a person who knows no Sanskrit vice- chancellor of a Sanskrit University. I hope the above is clearer and explains my earlier brief response on the subject. Regards. Jha --- Lynken Ghose wrote: > Dear Dr. Jha: > > Your point is not clear. What does the term > "pseudo-secular" mean? If you > are going to post something, please make your manner > of expression as clear > as possible; otherwise it makes for very difficult > reading and has no > elucidating effect at all. > > Lynken Ghose > > > >From: Akhilesh Jha > >Reply-To: Indology > >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >Subject: Re: A hypothetical question > >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:11:43 -0800 > > > >Namaskar, > > > >That would be a typical example of communist and > >pseudo-secular's method of supporting academia and > >of honoring Adi Shankara, Sanskrit and Bharatiya > >culture. > > > >I wonder why the list members are silent on this > >issue! > > > >Regards. > >Jha > > > >--- Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > > Given the past discussions about appointment to > > > academic bodies, I hope > > > that this is not too far offline. > > > > > > What would the list members say if a person who > does > > > not know Sanskrit > > > (say, in the weak sense of reading a page in > 15-20 > > > minutes) is > > > (hypothetically) appointed as the vice-chancelor > > > (comparable to provost in > > > sone US universities) of something named ``... > > > Sanskrit University''? > > > > > > Regards > > > -Nath > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of > Products. > >http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 15 16:51:57 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 16:51:57 +0000 Subject: Devaraja Message-ID: <161227065471.23782.8798786216621399498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote: <<< What is the vedic precedents conceptually and ritually of the concept of 'devaraja' which came to be a premier medievel Hindu mode of politico- religious authority in India and more so in south east asia? It is also said by some historians that the ultimate conquest of one king by another king used to be carrying away (not desecrating) the royal image /deity symbolising the annexation of that principality? Is this devaraja concept an innovation of medievel India/ South east asia (i.e. post 3rd C Ad) without precedents or ritual support? >>> Me also very much want Vedicists/Sanskritists to talk about this topic. Years ago, I have discussed Tamil parallels here stored in the archives. The paLLippaTai temples of Pallavas, Cholas etc. with the art historian, Mary Storm, UCLA and examples in South East Asia. As you know Pallavan grantha script, which is used in Tamil country for writing Sanskrit (Dr. James Nye, UChicago has created a web page for displaying grantam script) is/was used in all of south east Asia including Vietnam. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R4978 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R11688 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9808&L=indology&P=R2642 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R2563 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R7873 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R7930 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9810&L=indology&P=R11938 Let me cite few lines on the Devaraja issue in SEAsia from a personal letter to me: " [snip] my SEA books are still in boxes in the garage, probably lost to access for months to come, BUT I will venture to say that the Devaraja issue is fraught with controversy. I think the most interesting issues seem to turn up in the Champa context, where there existed a very peculiar amalgam of Tantric Saiva and Buddhist religion, but little has been written about the Chams and most of that is in French, [snip] There are some interesting links with the Pallavas, which you might find pertinent. [...]" A quick list is appended at the end from my biblio-notes which you may find interesting. Kings and Gods are seen as one in many of S. Indian art: Example 1) In the Chola painting (early 11th century) in Tanjore temple, (long thought to be lost, but rediscovered by S. K. Govindasamy of Annamalai univ., Chidambaram in 1930s) a youthful majestic man with an aged munivar is seen. This, many authors claim (eg., Nagasamy, or Jim Heitzman's book on Cholas (OUP) cover photo) as Rajaraja I and his guru, KaruvUrt tEvar. BUT, this is only part of the story. There are a total of 4 men standing (3 aged, one young)! and a little far, there is Dakshinamurti sitting like Ayyappan/Ayyanar with a yoga-paTTai. Dakshinamurti image is badly damaged, For a sketch see C. Sivaramamurti, monumental Nataraja book. Evidently, the devaraja concept is working here. Among the four rishis worshipping Dakshinamurti, (sanaka- aadi munivar), only sanatkumAran is portrayed as young, and the rest are elderly rishis. The beautiful idea is used by the master Chola painters: sanatkumAran-sanaka; also simultaneously Rajarajan-KaruvUrttevar! [I do not think anybody has described this info anywhere]. Dakshinamurti was present only in the old Tamizakam (= today's Kearala and TN, here I use tamizakam in the sense of Prof. P. Schalk's publications). The Dakshinamurti in the Potiyil mountains is seen as Avalokitesvara in Buddhist gaNDavyUhasUtram. There is a long and ancient tradition among Saivaites that Tamil was taught by Shiva to Agastya Malayamuni and among Tamil Buddhists that it was Avalokita who taught Tamil to Agastya at Potiyil. This earlier myth spills over into Sanskrit legends produced in the south that made Shaivaites claim that Shiva taught Sanskrit to Panini, and Buddhists on the contrary went to claim that it was really Avalokita who inspired Panini. Differing from M. Deshpande, Who inspired Panini?, JAOS paper (Nortwest India/Afghanistan area was said to be the orgin of the Panini myths), I wrote about South and the key role of Potiyil(Malaya/Potalaka) in the creation of these legends about Panini and parallel ones for Agastya. (1998 postings under the thread title: Where was PANini inspired?) Between Pandyan Madurai and Pallava/Cholan Chidambaram royal competitions, the Dakshinamurti myth has played a major role. See Dr. Palaniappan's essay from the Indology website: a) Madurai and Chidambaram: The Tamil Cities that Created Important Sanskrit Myths http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/palaniappan-patanjali.html b) Parvata, potiyil, and zrI-parvata Some remarks by S. Palaniappan http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/palaniappan-parvata.html There is a century old important Indological quest to locate parvatam mentioned in the shlokam of vAkyapadIyam 2.486. Anient Tamil texts explicitly locate Parvatam as Potiyil(malayam), for example, in Takkayaakap paraNi. In the second millennium CE, Dakshinamurti travels North. Abhivagupta's teacher praises him as Dakshinamurti, and AdvaitavAdins use the DakshiNaamUrti theme. Example 2: ----------- I have already given an example of painting exhibiting Devaraja phenomenon. Next is sculpture. Rajaraja I's famous and powerful son, Rajendra Chozhan I has carved a big and beautuful relief sculpture at GangaikoNDachOzapuram. This displays the ChaNDesa nAyanAr, who stays outside all the Shiva sanctums in India and who cut his father down with his axe. Shiva appears in the scene to revive the dead father, and garlands the young ChaNDesar with his favorite flower garland made of ko_nRai flowers. In the Chola panel, Shiva, seated with Parvati, is seen garlanding the ChaNDesa Nayanar worshipping and thanking for the highest honor that Shiva bestows. Here, ChaNDesar's face is said to be modeled after Rajendran I. (See his portrait sculpture in Gautam Sarabhai collection). Again Devaraja concept: ChaNDesar/Rajendran. Well, sort of. S. Indian kings portrayed themselves only as Rishis/Nayanars etc., But Khmer kings went overboard and portrayed themslves as Vishnu, ... Also, the famous "Smiling God" imagery seen in gopura towers of Cambodia, has early precedents in Tamil literature and art. [Will write on this some other time.] I am almost positive that if successor states (like Vijayanagar, Nayaks, Marathas) followed the earlier lead of seafaring in sangam literature, and then Pallavas and Cholas built up the Naval forces, India would not have been subdued by Europe later. Regards, N. Ganesan, PhD NASA Johnson Space Center Houston, Texas Devaraja: ---------- Kulke, Hermann. The Devaraja Cult / Hermann Kulke ; translated from the German by I. W. Mabbett ; with an introd. by the author and notes on the translation of Khmer terms by J. M. Jacob. Ithaca, N.Y. : Southeast Asia Program, Dept. of Asian Studies, Cornell University, 1978. Coedes, G. The Indianized States of Southeast Asia, ed. Walter F. Vella, trans. Susan Brown Cowing, Honolulu, 1968. Gesick, L., ed. Centers Symbols and Hierarchies: Essays on the Classical States of Southeast Asia, New Haven, 1983. Hirsch, Marilyn. "Royal Implications of the Unique Subject Matter, Scale and Formative in the Narrative Reliefs at Mamallapuram" Bulletin of South Asian Religious Studies 3 (Oct. 1983) 56-63. Kaimal, Padma Audrey. Stone Portrait Sculpture at Pallava and Early Cola Temples : Kings, Patrons and Individual Identity Dissertation, University of California, Berkeley, 1988. Sivaramamurti, C. Royal Conquests and Cultural Migrations in South India and the Deccan, Calcutta: Trustees of the Indian Museum, 1955. Srinivasan K. R. "Some Aspects of Religion as Revealed by Early Monuments and Literature of the South," Journal of the Madras University, Vol. XXXII, No 1, July 1960. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From zydenbos at GMX.LI Fri Dec 15 18:27:00 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 19:27:00 +0100 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM Message-ID: <161227065481.23782.9147300296958293749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 12 Dec 2000 schrieb Gunthard Mueller: > (2.1) Adobe Acrobat (PDF files) PDF files include everything, > including fonts. [...] This format is a derivative of PostScript, > which is an indispensable part of many operating systems, so this > technology is safe and here to stay. The Acrobat writer software is > widely available and low-cost. Probably your institute already > has a license, I would guess. There was a bit of discussion about this on another list recently. If you work with Linux or FreeBSD, the Acrobat writer software is not even necessary for producing PDFs. You write your text (with StarOffice, TeX, anything), but instead of printing it on paper you print it to a PostScript file. With the free program "ps2pdf" this can be converted to the PDF format. In that other discussion, it was mentioned that also under Windows it should be possible to generate PDF's using the LaTeX distribution for Windows called 'MikTeX.' RZ From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 16 03:45:02 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 19:45:02 -0800 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065497.23782.13861335569832938108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: .... ... >is krishNaa and nala (husband of damayanti), probably have >to do with 'black, dark'. -l-/-r- alterations are common There is atleast one well know nAr/nAl pair where to illustrate -r-/-L- interchange: nArikELa, nALikEra, nALikELam = coconut Obviously nAr- & nAL- here are Ta. nAr = fibre, a defining feature of coconut. DEDR #3651: nAr = fibre, string, cord, rope; nAri = bow-string, fibrous covering at the bottom of a leaf-stalk, as of a coconut palm nALikEram is attested in tEvAram: "veLLai nALikEram viriyA naRum pALai" (tEvAram:106:5) regards, P. Chandrasekaran. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From buescher at HUM.KU.DK Fri Dec 15 21:52:18 2000 From: buescher at HUM.KU.DK (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 22:52:18 +0100 Subject: new publication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065485.23782.8232322465485023581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jomathan Silk, this is indeed a very wonderful book announcement. I heard already about the festschrift to Nagao and the long process it took to produce it, when visiting Hamburg sometimes in Spring (participating at a seminar with Prof. Schmithausen). The list of contributors and their topics is most interesting indeed. Immediately, I tried to find out about the availability of the book, first at Amazon's and then directly at the University of Hawai'i Press. While the first offered the possibility of pre-ordering it, the latter address does not yet seem to have any entry for the title on the search engine at all. What would you recommend me to do to get the book as quickly as possible? My best regards to you, Hartmut >I am happy to announce the publication of: > > >Wisdom, Compassion, and the Search for Understanding: >The Buddhist Studies Legacy of Gadjin M. Nagao > >Edited by Jonathan A. Silk > >University of Hawai'i Press, Honolulu, 2000 >ISBN: 0-8248-2086-X > >Contents > >Preface vii >A Short Biographical Sketch of Professor Gadjin Masato Nagao xi >A Bibliography of the Publications of Gadjin M. Nagao (Through 1996) xxvii > >____________________________________________ > >Gadjin M. Nagao >The Bodhisattva's Compassion Described in the Mah?y?na-s?tr?la?k?ra 1 >Noritoshi Aramaki >Toward an Understanding of the Vij?aptim?trat? 39 >Mark L. Blum >Sam?dhi in H?nen's Hermeneutic of Practice and Faith: Assessing the >Sammai hottokki 61 >Luis O. G?mez >Two Jars on Two Tables: Reflections on the "Two Truths" 95 >Masaaki Hattori >Dign?ga's Theory of Meaning: An Annotated Translation of the >Pram??asamuccayav?tti : Chapter V: Any?poha-par?k ? (I) 137 >Masamichi Ichig? >??ntarak ita and Bh?viveka as Opponents of the M?dhyamika in the >Madhyamak?loka 147 >J. W. de Jong >The Buddha and His Teachings 171 >Y?ichi Kajiyama >Buddhist Cosmology as Presented in the Yog?c?rabh?mi 183 >Sh?ry? Katsura >N?g?rjuna and the Tetralemma (Catu ko?i) 201 >Leslie Kawamura >The Middle Path According to the K??yapaparivarta-s?tra 221 >Katsumi Mimaki >J??nas?rasamuccaya kk? 20-28: Mise au point with a Sanskrit Manuscript 233 >Lambert Schmithausen >On Three Yog?c?rabh?mi Passages Mentioning the Three Svabh?vas or >Lak a?as 245 >Jonathan A. Silk >The Yog?c?ra Bhik u 265 >Ernst Steinkellner >Manuscript Fragments, Texts, and Inscriptions in the Temple of Tabo: >An Interim Report with Bibliography 315 >Jikid? Takasaki >Sa?s?ra eva nirv??am 333 >Teruyoshi Tanji >On Sam?ropa: Probing the Relationship of the Buddha's Silence and His >Teaching 347 >Meiji Yamada >Buddhist Liberation and Birth in the Heavens: The Significance of the >Earliest Buddhist Icons Found among Grave Objects in China's Yangtze >River Region 369 >Akira Yuyama >Toward a New Edition of the Fan-y? Tsa-ming of Li-yen 397 > >Index 413 >Contributors 421 > > > >Jonathan Silk > >jonathan.silk at yale.edu > >Dept. of Religious Studies >Yale University >320 Temple St. >New Haven CT 06520-8287 >USA > >tel. 203-432-0828 >fax. 203-432-7844 From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 16 07:10:44 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 00 23:10:44 -0800 Subject: Re. Devaraja Message-ID: <161227065501.23782.4053560981468427828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanking R. Srinivasan who, as part of a much longer posting, wrote: <> Among the Khmer, the cult of the Devaraja emerged during the ninth-century reign of Jayavarman II. At this time, the previously dominant Zakti religion ? based mainly on fecundity and the life-giving energy of nature ? was modified anew or replaced by a politicized form of Zaivism founded on rites of the Devaraja. This would seem to imply nothing less than a king's personal deification by merging his soul with the essence of Ziva's subtle being. Here, interestingly, R. Srinivasan suggests something different. This invites some amplification and clarification. >?From this time, the rites of Devaraja and the consecration of the king's royal linga became the chief sources of royal legitimacy. Popular worship of the royal linga also became supreme. Such sculpted stone phallic representations of Ziva were placed throughout the Khmer Empire. They were normally installed at the summits of pyramidal temple-mountains representing Mount Kailasa, the navel of the universe. Ziva's association with The Sacred Mountain is generally understood. But here we have Ziva in the symbolic form of a linga placed in the central shrine of a temple that is itself symbolic of the sacred mountain. The compound effect can nothing but swell the ramifications of the primordial concept. As the Cosmic Pillar, or axis mundi, the royal temple that enshrined the linga symbolized the sacred mountain Kailasa, "the abode of the gods." In this way, the linga also plotted the "essential center" or primal locus of the Royal Dominion. [BTB, could this be the meaning of "cakratiirtha"?] Cambodian monarchs seem to have made tremendously exacting calculations to determine the kingdom's essential power-point. And there they erected the royal temple. This mysterious "point-zero" furthermore functioned as the fundamental reference point to which all-subsequent centers were aligned. Thus, the linga of the king became the primal locus of not only the immediate geographic locale, but also by extension, the entire universe. By erecting temple-mountains to enshrine the royal linga, each succeeding king was essentially constructing a personal quincunx or "four-cornered force-field" in the form of a religio-architectural mandala of universal alignment, power and protection. But mandalas, we should note, are more than just "microcosmic mirrors of the universe." Mandalas are also "receptacles" of the gods. And as Eliade has written, in Vedic India the gods "descended into the altar." This conception was extremely widespread, and existed beyond the frontiers of India and even of Asia. "?The symbolism of royal cities, temples, towns, and, by extension, every human habitation was based upon such a valorization of the sacred place as the center of the world and hence the site of communication with heaven and hell [Eliade, _Yoga_ 220]. Still, the notion and evolution of the linga itself, particularly among the Khmer, would be an interesting discussion if someone wants to go there. Finally, by way of personal observation, I could hardly help reflecting when visiting the ruins of the Greater Angkor Archeological Complex, that while thieves and archeologists had deprived the place of nearly every linga that ever stood, there remained abandoned yonis in remarkable abundance. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Dec 16 07:20:03 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 02:20:03 -0500 Subject: Devaraja Message-ID: <161227065503.23782.1213910886571003361.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/15/2000 6:40:15 PM Central Standard Time, rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG writes: > "Tiruvutal Mannare kaanal Tirumale Enrum" is > a famous Tamil eulogy to sing the praise of the king as "Seeing the king > walking is like seeing Vishnu walking". This is not really a Tamil eulogy to sing the praise of the king. The correct version of the above line is part of tiruvAymozi 4.4.8 of nammAzvAr. tiruvuTai man2n2araik kANil tirumAlaik kaNTEn2E en2n2um uruvuTai vaNNaGkaL kANil ulakaLantAn2 en2Ru tuLLum karuvuTait tEvilkaL ellAm kaTalvaNNan2 kOyilE en2n2um veruvilum vIzvilum kaNNan2 kazalkaL virumpumE The poem follows the CT model of a mother's utterance about her daughter's love for the hero who is tirumAl/viSNu here. What should interest Radhika Srinivasan is not the first line but the third line and the use of tEvil and kOyil. Also to be considered are the etymologies of iRaivan2 and kaTavuL. Regards S. Palaniappan From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 16 14:19:52 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 06:19:52 -0800 Subject: Re. Devaraja Message-ID: <161227065509.23782.1553522811380973318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: <> I see the apparent connection you draw, but could not "Mahendra" simply have been a popular royal name for the period? All the same, it may be of interest to review the incident in 802 when the Hiranyadama accompanied His Majesty King Jayavarman II and his esteemed guru Zivakaivalya into the depths of the moss-laden forests of *Mahendraparvata* (present-day Mt. Kulen). It was there that the brahman "of apparent Indian birth" satisfied the king by performing the rites of the Devaraja so that the king would become the cakravartin. Afterwards, Hiranyadama turned to the king?s own guru and revealed the secrets of the Tantric rites, even teaching him the pertinent Tantric texts. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Sat Dec 16 00:03:22 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 08:03:22 +0800 Subject: Unpleasant quarrels In-Reply-To: <01JXQ4O9AN1YTMCQF7@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> Message-ID: <161227065487.23782.4577273766674267356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> Beautifully said. Lessons of History by Will Durant is a fascinating read.. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of V.V. Raman Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 8:39 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Unpleasant quarrels 1. Mr. Kumar's posting yesterday was thoughtful, reasonable, and calmly articulate. 2. My only question is: Could it be that these (Exo-Indology) folks are getting upset because they started this group with an entirely different purpose?: To study etymology, linguistics, ancient documents, etc., and not to explore Hindu-Muslim antagonism? The founder and others have made it quite clear they don't regard those matters as coming under the theme of Indology. We can't really blame people for choosing to study something, and not something else, can we? 3. Given that, would it perhaps be a good idea to start a separate listserve or e-group which explores Indian history from say, 700 CE? [Perhaps something like that already exists. I don't know.] This would leave these basically decent people in peace: to pursue their lively exchanges in the several possible origins and nuances of the word NArAyaNa, whether the Tamils thought their God was black or blue, how the horse was called in proto-Hittite or whatever, whether the Skandapurana was Skanda, Kanda or Scandinavian, and such other esoteric, if (for some of us) not so exciting topics, rather than debate about whether Babur demolished the Ayodhya temple out of sheer malice, or because he liked the place, and what can be done about the matter, and whether the RSS or the VHP is serving the cause of Hinduism better. 4. There are botanists who study every leaf-form and twig slice. Then there are ecologists who are concerned about rain forests. Perhaps both groups serve a purose. Indeed, their subject matters are inter-related, and they could even throw light on each other's interests. The crypto-botanists, armed with their microscopes and source books, feel (rightly or wrongly) that all this screaming about ecological disaster may or may not be justified, and are pleading with us to please not do that that in their serene laboratories, and they don't want to have anything to do with the very concerned ecologists. What can we do? 5. On a slightly different note, to me, an old-timer, there is an irony in what is happening in these exchanges on the role of the Moguls in India. When I was in high school, many long decades ago, my very nationalistic history teacher used to tell us that the British grossly exaggerated the negative impacts of Mogul rule in India in order to create a division between Hindus and Muslims for their own selfish interest, when, in fact, the two groups had been living in peace and harmony for centuries. And now.... 6. History is not, it never has been, a recalling of facts from the past, but an interpretation, sometimes calm, sometimes passionate, but always fascinating, of recorded and reported events, and it sometimes serves to inspire pride and joy, sometimes to anger and resentment too. V. V. Raman December 15, 2000 From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Sat Dec 16 00:23:24 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 08:23:24 +0800 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.20001214171702.00e3d7f0@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227065489.23782.18358557233877008495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> White, associated with creation, is attributed to Brhma first and then as the Creator role is given to Narayana, the very Cause of the Creator, toNarayana as well. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Luis Gonzalez-Reimann Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 6:03 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) At 12:25 PM 12/13/2000 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: >Are there any shlokams from >Sanskrit texts where Narayana is said to be white? It is very common in Sanskrit texts to associate NArAyaNa's color with the different yugas. He is white in KRta and black in Kali. The obvious implication is that white is the best color and black the worst. See the MahAbhArata, 3.148.16, 23, 26, 33 and 3.187.31. This is also stated by BhAsa at the very the beginning of his BAlacarita (where it is said that NArAyaNa's body was the color of milk or conch in the KRta Yuga -zaGkha-kSIra-vapus). This idea is then repeated in later PurANas. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Sat Dec 16 00:35:30 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 08:35:30 +0800 Subject: Devaraja In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065493.23782.12512644339424486692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When those in power needed both tacit acceptance from mortals on earth and sanction from the heaven above, the concept of God-king was born, but in China, rather than India. The 1st empror of China Qin Shih Huang (3BC), called it the Mandate of Heaven (Tien Hua) and had the blessings in Confucious's writings. China's emperors immortalised themselves, built stately tombs, with terracota statues of warriors and horses for their aftrelife, long before such a concept seems to have taken root in India. The Central Asian king of the Yueh Chi tribe of Ku-Shan clan, Kanishka, combined the Mandate with ASoka's "Devanampiya" (Favourite of teh Gods) and Chakravartin ideology to call himself "Devaputra" (son of God) in 1cdBC/AD. The imperial ideology of Dharmarakshaka (Protector of Dharma) enabled emperors carve images in pairs in caves, one bearing the image of the king in royal attire and the other bearing his iamge in the Bodhisattva mould in early Christian era (eg: Jiqu Mengxun cave of the Northern Liang dynasty, China). When imperial patronage of the Brahmanical gods gained momentum in the Gupta period and in the Pallava/Chola periods in the South, assuming Vishnu's epithets for themselves was only the logical step to Godhead. Kumara Gupta's coins bears testimony to this. "Tiruvutal Mannare kaanal Tirumale Enrum" is a famous Tamil eulogy to sing the praise of the king as "Seeing the king walking is like seeing Vishnu walking". Khmer tradition is an extension of this, since the Prashastis found all over Siem Reap reflect this concept. Western historians who could not understand the concept have tended to think that Khmer kings treated themselves as "Gods"; LIKE Gods is differnt from being Gods. The Vedantic/Advaitic concept uses the term "iva" (like so very often to draw the distinction to describe the Mahavakya, "Tat Tvamasi" (That Art Thou). History records terms such as Devadasi, DevaBrahmana, yet Devaraja has been argued over like none else. Although all these terms have been misinterpreted, at times abused even. Radhika -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of N. Ganesan Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 12:52 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Devaraja Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote: <<< What is the vedic precedents conceptually and ritually of the concept of 'devaraja' which came to be a premier medievel Hindu mode of politico- religious authority in India and more so in south east asia? It is also said by some historians that the ultimate conquest of one king by another king used to be carrying away (not desecrating) the royal image /deity symbolising the annexation of that principality? Is this devaraja concept an innovation of medievel India/ South east asia (i.e. post 3rd C Ad) without precedents or ritual support? >>> Me also very much want Vedicists/Sanskritists to talk about this topic. Years ago, I have discussed Tamil parallels here stored in the archives. The paLLippaTai temples of Pallavas, Cholas etc. with the art historian, Mary Storm, UCLA and examples in South East Asia. As you know Pallavan grantha script, which is used in Tamil country for writing Sanskrit (Dr. James Nye, UChicago has created a web page for displaying grantam script) is/was used in all of south east Asia including Vietnam. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R4978 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R11688 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9808&L=indology&P=R2642 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R2563 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R7873 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R7930 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9810&L=indology&P=R11938 Let me cite few lines on the Devaraja issue in SEAsia from a personal letter to me: " [snip] my SEA books are still in boxes in the garage, probably lost to access for months to come, BUT I will venture to say that the Devaraja issue is fraught with controversy. I think the most interesting issues seem to turn up in the Champa context, where there existed a very peculiar amalgam of Tantric Saiva and Buddhist religion, but little has been written about the Chams and most of that is in French, [snip] There are some interesting links with the Pallavas, which you might find pertinent. [...]" A quick list is appended at the end from my biblio-notes which you may find interesting. Kings and Gods are seen as one in many of S. Indian art: Example 1) In the Chola painting (early 11th century) in Tanjore temple, (long thought to be lost, but rediscovered by S. K. Govindasamy of Annamalai univ., Chidambaram in 1930s) a youthful majestic man with an aged munivar is seen. This, many authors claim (eg., Nagasamy, or Jim Heitzman's book on Cholas (OUP) cover photo) as Rajaraja I and his guru, KaruvUrt tEvar. BUT, this is only part of the story. There are a total of 4 men standing (3 aged, one young)! and a little far, there is Dakshinamurti sitting like Ayyappan/Ayyanar with a yoga-paTTai. Dakshinamurti image is badly damaged, For a sketch see C. Sivaramamurti, monumental Nataraja book. Evidently, the devaraja concept is working here. Among the four rishis worshipping Dakshinamurti, (sanaka- aadi munivar), only sanatkumAran is portrayed as young, and the rest are elderly rishis. The beautiful idea is used by the master Chola painters: sanatkumAran-sanaka; also simultaneously Rajarajan-KaruvUrttevar! [I do not think anybody has described this info anywhere]. Dakshinamurti was present only in the old Tamizakam (= today's Kearala and TN, here I use tamizakam in the sense of Prof. P. Schalk's publications). The Dakshinamurti in the Potiyil mountains is seen as Avalokitesvara in Buddhist gaNDavyUhasUtram. There is a long and ancient tradition among Saivaites that Tamil was taught by Shiva to Agastya Malayamuni and among Tamil Buddhists that it was Avalokita who taught Tamil to Agastya at Potiyil. This earlier myth spills over into Sanskrit legends produced in the south that made Shaivaites claim that Shiva taught Sanskrit to Panini, and Buddhists on the contrary went to claim that it was really Avalokita who inspired Panini. Differing from M. Deshpande, Who inspired Panini?, JAOS paper (Nortwest India/Afghanistan area was said to be the orgin of the Panini myths), I wrote about South and the key role of Potiyil(Malaya/Potalaka) in the creation of these legends about Panini and parallel ones for Agastya. (1998 postings under the thread title: Where was PANini inspired?) Between Pandyan Madurai and Pallava/Cholan Chidambaram royal competitions, the Dakshinamurti myth has played a major role. See Dr. Palaniappan's essay from the Indology website: a) Madurai and Chidambaram: The Tamil Cities that Created Important Sanskrit Myths http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/palaniappan-patanjali.html b) Parvata, potiyil, and zrI-parvata Some remarks by S. Palaniappan http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/palaniappan-parvata.html There is a century old important Indological quest to locate parvatam mentioned in the shlokam of vAkyapadIyam 2.486. Anient Tamil texts explicitly locate Parvatam as Potiyil(malayam), for example, in Takkayaakap paraNi. In the second millennium CE, Dakshinamurti travels North. Abhivagupta's teacher praises him as Dakshinamurti, and AdvaitavAdins use the DakshiNaamUrti theme. Example 2: ----------- I have already given an example of painting exhibiting Devaraja phenomenon. Next is sculpture. Rajaraja I's famous and powerful son, Rajendra Chozhan I has carved a big and beautuful relief sculpture at GangaikoNDachOzapuram. This displays the ChaNDesa nAyanAr, who stays outside all the Shiva sanctums in India and who cut his father down with his axe. Shiva appears in the scene to revive the dead father, and garlands the young ChaNDesar with his favorite flower garland made of ko_nRai flowers. In the Chola panel, Shiva, seated with Parvati, is seen garlanding the ChaNDesa Nayanar worshipping and thanking for the highest honor that Shiva bestows. Here, ChaNDesar's face is said to be modeled after Rajendran I. (See his portrait sculpture in Gautam Sarabhai collection). Again Devaraja concept: ChaNDesar/Rajendran. Well, sort of. S. Indian kings portrayed themselves only as Rishis/Nayanars etc., But Khmer kings went overboard and portrayed themslves as Vishnu, ... Also, the famous "Smiling God" imagery seen in gopura towers of Cambodia, has early precedents in Tamil literature and art. [Will write on this some other time.] I am almost positive that if successor states (like Vijayanagar, Nayaks, Marathas) followed the earlier lead of seafaring in sangam literature, and then Pallavas and Cholas built up the Naval forces, India would not have been subdued by Europe later. Regards, N. Ganesan, PhD NASA Johnson Space Center Houston, Texas Devaraja: ---------- Kulke, Hermann. The Devaraja Cult / Hermann Kulke ; translated from the German by I. W. Mabbett ; with an introd. by the author and notes on the translation of Khmer terms by J. M. Jacob. Ithaca, N.Y. : Southeast Asia Program, Dept. of Asian Studies, Cornell University, 1978. Coedes, G. The Indianized States of Southeast Asia, ed. Walter F. Vella, trans. Susan Brown Cowing, Honolulu, 1968. Gesick, L., ed. Centers Symbols and Hierarchies: Essays on the Classical States of Southeast Asia, New Haven, 1983. Hirsch, Marilyn. "Royal Implications of the Unique Subject Matter, Scale and Formative in the Narrative Reliefs at Mamallapuram" Bulletin of South Asian Religious Studies 3 (Oct. 1983) 56-63. Kaimal, Padma Audrey. Stone Portrait Sculpture at Pallava and Early Cola Temples : Kings, Patrons and Individual Identity Dissertation, University of California, Berkeley, 1988. Sivaramamurti, C. Royal Conquests and Cultural Migrations in South India and the Deccan, Calcutta: Trustees of the Indian Museum, 1955. Srinivasan K. R. "Some Aspects of Religion as Revealed by Early Monuments and Literature of the South," Journal of the Madras University, Vol. XXXII, No 1, July 1960. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Sat Dec 16 14:21:35 2000 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 09:21:35 -0500 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM Message-ID: <161227065511.23782.662787749762542928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos wrote: >If you work with Linux or FreeBSD, the Acrobat writer software is not >even necessary for producing PDFs. You write your text (with >StarOffice, TeX, anything), but instead of printing it on paper you >print it to a PostScript file. With the free program "ps2pdf" this >can be converted to the PDF format. In that other discussion, it was >mentioned that also under Windows it should be possible to generate >PDF's using the LaTeX distribution for Windows called 'MikTeX.' Robert, you don't need Linux or FreeBSD to print to PostScript or convert that to PDF. On Windows, you can install a local printer entry (choosing the Apple LaserWriter or the HP LaserJet 4/4M PS driver is recommended) and check the "Print to File" checkbox when printing to this phantom printer from any application. The file will be created as a .PRN file, but it's really a .PS file which the ps2pdf utility (available for Windows as part of GhostScript, from www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost) will happily convert to PDF. 1. You can also choose FILE: instead of LPT1: when installing the printer entry, but I think the file dialogue it then gives you is less capable; 2. I haven't tried this on a Mac, though -- has anyone? 3. Of course, if you have the money and don't want the aggravation, you may as well just buy Acrobat. Regards, Rohan. From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Dec 16 05:04:25 2000 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 10:34:25 +0530 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) In-Reply-To: <20001216034502.6849.qmail@web704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065499.23782.14626177924398148889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:45 PM 12/15/00 -0800, you wrote: >N. Ganesan wrote: >.... > > ... > >is krishNaa and nala (husband of damayanti), probably have > >to do with 'black, dark'. -l-/-r- alterations are common > >There is atleast one well know nAr/nAl pair where to illustrate >-r-/-L- interchange: >nArikELa, nALikEra, nALikELam = coconut >Obviously nAr- & nAL- here are Ta. nAr = fibre, a defining feature of coconut. >DEDR #3651: >nAr = fibre, string, cord, rope; >nAri = bow-string, fibrous covering at the bottom of a leaf-stalk, as of a >coconut palm > >nALikEram is attested in tEvAram: > >"veLLai nALikEram viriyA naRum pALai" (tEvAram:106:5) > >regards, >P. Chandrasekaran. Let me add a few more examples of -l-/-r- and -L-/-r- alterations. Araththi/Alaththi/ALaththi is used in the context of showing a thIpam up and down (it it circular?) in front of a deity. The last word is also used in the context of swara Alabhana in Carnatic music. This word ALaththi is used in this sense in old Tamil musical treatises. The tranliterated Sanskrit rendering 'Alabhana' came into practice perhaps much later. kAri/kALi = the black Godess Parvathi thArAttuthal/thAlAttuthal - lullaby (rArA is often interchanged with lAlA in lullabies and musical rendering) therivu/theLivu = to make it clear, enlighten, to select etc. nALam/nAram/naram = nerve and blood conduits ( one which is supposed to have a tube-like hole) pAram/pALam = a heavy bar (it can also be used for rock, big stone etc.) I think these alterations are perfectly reasonable. With regards, irAma.ki From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 16 11:03:02 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 11:03:02 +0000 Subject: Devaraja Message-ID: <161227065505.23782.13495957080352223339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The saivAgama rituals as practised in Tamil Nadu in the first millennium played a key role in determining the location of the Khmer royal temple. Often the center was called as Mount Mahendra, which occurs often in Tamil saivism also. Note that the ancient Saiva Adheenams in Tamil Nadu (Dharmapuram, TiruvaavaDutuRai, Tiruppan2antAL) go by the title, KailAsa paramparai. I think Prof. Jean Filliozat wrote a paper about Kailasa-paramparai in Cambodia and Saiva Adheenams of the South India. Paul Wheatley, The Mount of the Immortals, A note on Tamil cultural influence in fifth-century Indochina, Oriens Extremus, v. 21, no. 1, 1974, p. 97-109. In 484 A.D., King KauNDinya Jayavarman of Funan sent an envoy to China, reported in Chinese chronicles. Wheatley's primary focus is to show that "Siva's mountain called as Mayentiram in Tamil is what is transcribed into Chinese and Cambodian. In his own words, "But it is still the Sanskrit name Mahendra that is associated with the god, and this is a form that cannot have been the original of the Chinese transcripion Mu^a-t^.am. Somewhat unexpectedly in the general context of the brahmanization of Southeast Asia as it had been customarily presented, it is in *Tamil* (not Sanskrit) "saivaite literature that the source of the Chinese transcription must be sought. The relevant texts have recently been assembled in convenient translation by Professor Filliozat ("New researches"), from whose versions the following citations are taken. The earliest extant Tamil reference to 'Siva as the King of Gods occurs in the 6th century TiruvirattaimaNimaalai of the woman saint Karaikkaalammaiyar, who unequivocally designates the god as "Lord of the Immortals" (amarar piraan). But the most numerous and most explicit passages ensconcing "Siva on Mount Mahendra are to be found in Tiruvaacakam, the 'Sacred Utterances' that constitute a veritable spiritual autobiography of the Tamil saint MaNikkavAcakar, perhaps the greatest of all exponents of the "saivasiddhaanta, who lived probably during the 9th century." [...] "Phonology and context here combine to support the conjecture that in MayEntiram, the Tamil form of the name of the abode of "Siva, is to be discerned the origin of the Chinese Mu^a-t^.am" ... "The use of the Tamil form of a name in a deposition submitted to the Chinese court in 484 A.D. is at first sight surprising in view of the general function of Sanskrit in the early centuries of the Christian era as the language of literary communication both within the Indian subcontinent, and abroad, but it is not the only instance of Tamil cultural influence in southern Indo-China during the B'iu-n^.am period, nor is the earliest. In the style of an ancestor of a ruler tributory to B'iu-n^.am who is mentioned on the famous stele from Vo-ca.nh, Filliozat has discerned a tamil royal title (BEFEO, 55, 1969, p.107-116). The ancestor in question appears on the stele as "Sri Maara, which Filliozat has shown, in the context established by the inscription, can only have been a Sanskrit rendering of MaaRan, a frequent element in the titularies of the Pandyan Kings of Madurai" ... Regards, V. Iyer ------------------------------------------------ Ven. Tantra wrote: Among the Khmer, the cult of the Devaraja emerged during the ninth-century reign of Jayavarman II. At this time, the previously dominant Zakti religion ? based mainly on fecundity and the life-giving energy of nature ? was modified anew or replaced by a politicized form of Zaivism founded on rites of the Devaraja. This would seem to imply nothing less than a king's personal deification by merging his soul with the essence of Ziva's subtle being. [...] >???From this time, the rites of Devaraja and the consecration of the king's royal linga became the chief sources of royal legitimacy. Popular worship of the royal linga also became supreme. Such sculpted stone phallic representations of Ziva were placed throughout the Khmer Empire. They were normally installed at the summits of pyramidal temple-mountains representing Mount Kailasa, the navel of the universe. Ziva's association with The Sacred Mountain is generally understood. But here we have Ziva in the symbolic form of a linga placed in the central shrine of a temple that is itself symbolic of the sacred mountain. The compound effect can nothing but swell the ramifications of the primordial concept. As the Cosmic Pillar, or axis mundi, the royal temple that enshrined the linga symbolized the sacred mountain Kailasa, "the abode of the gods." In this way, the linga also plotted the "essential center" or primal locus of the Royal Dominion. [BTB, could this be the meaning of "cakratiirtha"?] Cambodian monarchs seem to have made tremendously exacting calculations to determine the kingdom's essential power-point. And there they erected the royal temple. This mysterious "point-zero" furthermore functioned as the fundamental reference point to which all-subsequent centers were aligned. Thus, the linga of the king became the primal locus of not only the immediate geographic locale, but also by extension, the entire universe. By erecting temple-mountains to enshrine the royal linga, each succeeding king was essentially constructing a personal quincunx or "four-cornered force-field" in the form of a religio-architectural mandala of universal alignment, power and protection. But mandalas, we should note, are more than just "microcosmic mirrors of the universe." Mandalas are also "receptacles" of the gods. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 16 11:39:01 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 11:39:01 +0000 Subject: rAjalIlAsana in Cambodia? Message-ID: <161227065507.23782.15190066071583594226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are Pallava reliefs in Kanchipuram VaikuNTapperumAL temple showing royal court scenes with a King seated in the pose of royal ease - (mahA)rAjalIlAsana. Also, Pallava Daksinamurtis, Chola Ayyanar and Avalokitezvaras. I know of rAjalIlAsana avalokitas from Sri Lanka, Indonesia, South China. In Old Campa, there are royal court scenes with a king sitting in r. pose, Also, a beautiful 'Siva in rAjalIlAsana there. rAjalIlAsana is the posture with one leg either freely hanging from a couch or in a cross-legged fashion, while the other leg is raised up forming an inverted V-shape and this raised foot is set on the couch, Often, the hand is resting on the knee of this lifted inverted V-type leg. Cambodia had a King Mahendravarman almost at the same time as Pallava Mahendravarman. Their titles were citrasEna and citrakArapuli respectively. Jean Boisselier says Khmer art was highly influenzed from the art of South India. Hence, my question: In Cambodia, have any avalokitezvara and/or Shiva sitting in rAjalIlAsana ever found?? Thanks a million for guidance or sources, N. Ganesan Related: I saw a Gupta period Shiva sitting in rAjalIlAsana. Except this rare exception, almost comparable to rare Skanda sculptures from Guptan age, I do not know avalokita or siva sitting in rAjalIlAsana prior to 7-8th centuries. Are there any r. Shiva or Avalokita from Bengal, U.P., Bihar, Kashmir, Nepal, Tibet, Central Asia in the time period before, say, 8th century? See also: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9904&L=indology&P=R12081 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9904&L=indology&P=R12161 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Dec 16 20:47:16 2000 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 12:47:16 -0800 Subject: Harappan language (latest Frontline URL) Message-ID: <161227065520.23782.846603372852281752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Witzel-Farmer response is strange. It suggests that Shendge's differing views constitute "attacks" on Indological research and that they put her in the same company with "Hinduvta" folk. Does this mean Witzel and Farmer are in the same company with white supremacists who regularly quote from Western Indologists' pet theories? I guess Dilip Chakrabarti should now also be worried about being declared guilty through association or simply overlap of theoretical belief. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala http://www.jps.net/kabalen/vedicindia.html -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Sat Dec 16 15:07:19 2000 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 15:07:19 +0000 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM Message-ID: <161227065513.23782.13422344132187012991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If the issue is the longevity of the standard and the means of producing PDF (or reading CD-ROMs), the open-source solutions are more appropriate than those based on Windows or MacOS. -Arun Gupta From hindu108 at YAHOO.COM Sun Dec 17 00:09:17 2000 From: hindu108 at YAHOO.COM (Akhilesh Jha) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 16:09:17 -0800 Subject: Harappan language (latest Frontline URL) Message-ID: <161227065532.23782.11789560747133394920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > The Witzel-Farmer response is strange. > > Does this mean Witzel and Farmer are in the same > company with > white supremacists who regularly quote from Western > Indologists' > pet theories? Namaskar, Judging by thier recent articles in that Leftist magazine Frontline and their tirades against whosoever speaks for Hindus (without Aryan-Dravidian divide), the answer to your question is a big YES. These are the ivory tower experts on India who are running out of steam and getting frightened by the fact that their racist interpretation of India's past is getting blown away by truth. Their recent articles show clear sign of desparation. Regards. Jha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From rao.3 at OSU.EDU Sat Dec 16 16:36:22 2000 From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 16:36:22 +0000 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) Message-ID: <161227065516.23782.864508622922074885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You don't need MikTeX to produce pdf. MikTeX merely contains an implementation of pdftex (which is still beta though). Unix versions of TeX may have to complied locally, as pdftex is written to be generic, that should pose no problem. [On Windows, please be warned that Ghostscript based ps2pdf must use the .exe version not the Perl script, as I found out by hard experience.] But: Acrobat Reader seems to have some trouble printing the output of pdftex. Screen output looks fine, but I (and especially my freshmen students) have had trouble with Acroread dropping or substituting fonts without a by your leave. My biggest reservation about CD-ROM publications is the potential problem with fonts. Every source of documents seems to want to use their own font sets, literring the font folder with hundreds of fonts used once. Unicode's promise seems to be still in the future. I can't get TITUS documents in UTF- 8 to display correctly (and they say that it works only in Windows, anyway). Regards Nath From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Dec 17 00:57:02 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 16:57:02 -0800 Subject: Harappan Euhemerus Message-ID: <161227065533.23782.5359540281564433073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala writes: > The Witzel-Farmer response is strange. > > It suggests that Shendge's differing views constitute "attacks" > on Indological research and that they put her in the same company > with "Hinduvta" folk. > > Does this mean Witzel and Farmer are in the same company with > white supremacists who regularly quote from Western Indologists' > pet theories? Read what we said more closely. We point out that Shendge's books, reaching back to the 70s, anticipated much of the current wave of historical fiction (aka "revisionism") by linking Harappan and Vedic civilizations in fantastic ways hardly less absurd than Rajaram's. Have you actually read Shendge's works? Do so and you will find the full range of Rgvedic gods -- Indra and Varuna and Vishnu and Rudra and the Ashvins, etc. -- transformed euhemeristically into Indus Valley officials or flesh-and-blood heroes of the "Aryas" who supposedly brought the Valley to its knees. What remarkable hindsight, we ask, lay behind the following passage we quoted from her most recent work --_The Aryas: Fact without Fancy or Fiction_ -- which reconstructs in wonderous detail the tale of a top-secret spying mission by "Vishnu the young, tall, lanky assistant of Indra": When the Aryas could not defeat the Asuras in straight fight, they beg for a patch of land and are granted one grudgingly. Erecting temporary sheds, they begin to live there. Vishnu, the young, tall, lanky assistant of Indra, disappears thrice. Where he goes is not known but apparently he makes three exploratory trips under disguise into the Asura territory to collect information on their sensitive points. On its basis a strategy is hatched. The quarrels and jealousies between the Asura chiefs or courtiers are used and one is aided against the other. So Indra emerges as a friend of some of them. With their help, he gets access to the Asura weapons and secures a vajra, thunderbolt, from the chief counsellor of the Asuras, Ushanas... Nothing like a top-secret Asuran thunderbolt when you get into trouble! And would Manansala please name some of these unnamed "white supremacists who regularly quote from Western Indologists' pet theories?" Is he speaking of "pet theories" of the AIT variety, from the 1940s -- as I suspect? Steve Farmer From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 16 19:55:00 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 19:55:00 +0000 Subject: Harappan language (latest Frontline URL) Message-ID: <161227065518.23782.17238512358287087752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. S. Hodge wrote: >Have you also seen Malati Shendge's recent book "The Language >of the Harrapans". She has the interesting theory that there >was also a strong Akkadian influence on this language which was >taken over into the language of the Rg Veda. In particular she >draws attention to the names of the various Asuras which she links >to Akkadian names. She also believes that Asura is linked via >Asur to the Assyrians. Probably very contentious but still worth a look. Horseplay in Harappa by Malati Shendge, and Witzel-Farmer response. Read at: http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1725/17251070.htm _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sun Dec 17 05:11:24 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 21:11:24 -0800 Subject: Graffitists (was: Violence in Indian historical process) Message-ID: <161227065543.23782.3066874450473033625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V. Sundaresan: "Sometimes, ivory towers are useful...I think the inhabitants need to get out more." B. Kaldhol: "...please remember that when you send something to this list, it will be there in the archive forever..." ________________________ As future debates continue to blow up and as we find ourselves embroiled in argumentation long saut?ed in rich cultural chauvinisms, we should also look forward to the familiar reappearance of anonymous contributors who plainly covet no concern for anybody's posterity. And though the interest of this new-generation poster may be likened to that of the urban graffitist, one must not misinterpret their forceful gestures as a mere avocation in denigrating public space ? No, but to render it sacred ? these cursive swipes that trash fiasco. I actually find it rather Twombly-esque, this spray can version of chalk on Roman distemper, as our self-absorbed list becomes curtly remodeled on the palimpsest ? indeed, a textbook case of the "out-of-touch" getting unceremoniously touch over. VT Ref: R. Hughes, "The Graffiti of Loss" http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/1994/941017/941017.art.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Dec 17 06:10:55 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 22:10:55 -0800 Subject: Harappan Euhemerus Message-ID: <161227065544.23782.15282376380726264366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: > Ok, so Shendge may be guilty of unwarranted hyperbolic elaboration in > her reconstruction of specifics but why should one simply dismiss a > suggestion that certain gods were orginally mere mortals as euhemerism > just because the transformation took place in prehistoric / > proto-historic times ? Euhemerism is simply the technical name for what Shendge is doing. The term refers back to the work of Euhemerus, fl. ca. 300 BCE, whose _Sacred History_ suggested that all ancient myths could be traced back to specific historical events. Euhemeristic models were quite popular in antiquity. Beyond Shendge, you would be hard pressed to find any modern adherents. We are *not* talking here -- to reply to one of your questions -- about single acts of apotheosis. Shendge not only applies this idea to Harappa -- like Rajaram & co., anachronistically conflating Rgvedic and Harappan cultures -- but also provides imaginative reconstructions in elaborate detail of supposed historical events in the Indus Valley. Hence the passage (one of hundreds similar) on the secret spy mission of "Vishnu, the young, tall, lanky assistant of Indra." But I'm an evidential scholar, Stephen. I'd be happy to discuss whatever textual evidence you think lies behind this miraculous historical reconstruction. Again, I'm especially interested in Indra's "tall, lanky assistant" -- as well, of course, as in that Asuran thunderbolt: > When the Aryas could not defeat the Asuras > in straight fight, they beg for a patch of > land and are granted one grudgingly. Erecting > temporary sheds, they begin to live there. Vishnu, > the young, tall, lanky assistant of Indra, disappears > thrice. Where he goes is not known but apparently he > makes three exploratory trips under disguise into the > Asura territory to collect information on their sensitive > points. On its basis a strategy is hatched. The quarrels > and jealousies between the Asura chiefs or courtiers are > used and one is aided against the other. So Indra emerges > as a friend of some of them. With their help, he gets > access to the Asura weapons and secures a vajra, thunderbolt, > from the chief counsellor of the Asuras, Ushanas... saf From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Sat Dec 16 21:41:39 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 22:41:39 +0100 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) Message-ID: <161227065523.23782.12030047325825405224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some tips and tricks about fonts and CD-ROMs: (1) Adobe Type Manager (available for Mac, Win, UNIX) allows you to classify, group, activate, delete and otherwise manage fonts while you are working. For example, suppose you have a CD that you only use now and then, which comes with special fonts. You can install these fonts in Adobe Type Manager (mostly referred to as "ATM"), under a heading of your own choice, and activate them. Afterwards, you can deactivate them. Next time, before you use the CD again, you activate the font set again. It's proved to be very useful. We have literally many thousands of fonts in continuous operation over here, so I think we would probably get nervous breakdowns if we didn't use ATM... (2) Adobe Acrobat allows you to INTEGRATE fonts inside the PDF document. You then only have to ship the PDF document. No need to send fonts. No need to install anything. The fonts are inside the PDF file and you can display and print as normal. (3) PDF file generators which are not Acrobat Reader compatible: (3.1) Update your generator, if possible. If that doesn't solve the problem: (3.2) Update your Acrobat version, if possible. If that doesn't solve the problem: (3.3) Change platform, if possible! Very rarely, Acrobat for Mac works fine, Acrobat for Windows doesn't. That's EXTREMELY rare, but we have had a few cases like that. If that still doesn't help: (3.4) Find a better generator. Keep in mind that Acrobat is by Adobe themselves, the inventors and maintainers of PDF. If you can't make a PDF file to work with Acrobat itself, your generator has a real quality problem. Finally, if you have problems running TITUS documents, could you let me know what kind of problems you have, and with what fonts and materials. I might be able to sort this out for you. We are also able to take fonts across platforms if necessary. Good luck. Yours, Gunthard Gunthard Mueller gm at e-ternals.com ----------------------------------------------------------- e-ternals.com - digitizing and publishing our heritage Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > You don't need MikTeX to produce pdf. MikTeX merely contains an > implementation of pdftex (which is still beta though). Unix versions of TeX > may have to complied locally, as pdftex is written to be generic, that > should pose no problem. [On Windows, please be warned that Ghostscript > based ps2pdf must use the .exe version not the Perl script, as I found out > by hard experience.] > > But: Acrobat Reader seems to have some trouble printing the output of > pdftex. Screen output looks fine, but I (and especially my freshmen > students) have had trouble with Acroread dropping or substituting fonts > without a by your leave. > > My biggest reservation about CD-ROM publications is the potential problem > with fonts. Every source of documents seems to want to use their own font > sets, literring the font folder with hundreds of fonts used once. Unicode's > promise seems to be still in the future. I can't get TITUS documents in UTF- > 8 to display correctly (and they say that it works only in Windows, anyway). > > Regards > Nath From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Sat Dec 16 21:50:59 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 22:50:59 +0100 Subject: PDF Message-ID: <161227065525.23782.12493026675814197521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Good point. In fact, some of these PostScript-to-PDF converter programs are of extremely high quality. However, some of them don't allow you to directly integrate fonts into the PDF file. So it's important to integrate the fonts at the stage when you produce the PostScript file, i.e. integrate the fonts into the PostScript file ("print the fonts together with the document"). Then convert the result to PDF. There are ways of adding fonts to existing PDF files (even with standard UNIX commands), but the process is really very error-prone and the result is mostly quite inefficient (large/slow). Nevertheless, some of the code that these converters produce does not totally conform with Adobe specs, and also there are some rather weird converters out there which really produce a lot of gibberish. So generally I really advise the use of the original PDF generator, i.e. Acrobat. (I promise I don't own any Adobe shares........) Best regards, gm at e-ternals.com ---------------------------------------------- e-ternals.com - digitizing and publishing Robert Zydenbos wrote: > Am 12 Dec 2000 schrieb Gunthard Mueller: > > > (2.1) Adobe Acrobat (PDF files) PDF files include everything, > > including fonts. [...] This format is a derivative of PostScript, > > which is an indispensable part of many operating systems, so this > > technology is safe and here to stay. The Acrobat writer software is > > widely available and low-cost. Probably your institute already > > has a license, I would guess. > > There was a bit of discussion about this on another list recently. If > you work with Linux or FreeBSD, the Acrobat writer software is not > even necessary for producing PDFs. You write your text (with > StarOffice, TeX, anything), but instead of printing it on paper you > print it to a PostScript file. With the free program "ps2pdf" this can > be converted to the PDF format. > > In that other discussion, it was mentioned that also under Windows > it should be possible to generate PDF's using the LaTeX > distribution for Windows called 'MikTeX.' > > RZ From l_s_k at NETZERO.NET Sun Dec 17 04:21:28 2000 From: l_s_k at NETZERO.NET (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 23:21:28 -0500 Subject: Patriarchal and Matriarchal societies Message-ID: <161227065539.23782.6924805403112486582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vanakkam. [ P - Patriarchal ] [ M - Matriarchal ] Last night, (Friday-Dec-15-2000), I was watching a program on A&E channel, which was titled "Paradise Lost". It talked about Egyptian and Mesapatomian civilizations. The program dealt with both 'patriarchal and matriarchal societies' in these civilizations. While referring to the times under Islamic rulers, the program mentioned women were subjected to the domination of the males more than in the past - and that it was transformed into a patriarchal society - women were needed to make more male babies intended to serve in war - "men were killing and breeding machines" ( to this effect ) ...... Also, a good number of statues from Egypt were used in the program to discuss the P/M societies based on the sculptures and the heiroglyphics. Now, to the best of my knowledge, I did not hear any mention about how the societies evolved into P/M in the present day Indian sub-continental region in the past. [ I started watching it only from the middle of it ]. Questions - "What was the nature of the society in the present day Indian sub-continental region in the past ? Was it a patriarchal or matriarchal society ? How was this presented in our ancient literature ? What kind of evidence do we have from archeological studies ? Were all societies P or M ? When did one change from P to M and viceversa ?" How come there is almost no mention of the ancient civilizations in India/China/Japan or generally Asia almost never included in such programs on A&E ? - I am puzzled. They almost seem obsessed with Egyptian civilization, that I feel its an overkill. Of course, there is lot to learn, but a more spread out focus does not seem to be so in such similar programs on A&E. Thanks - Suresh _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From sanjayroy780 at CS.COM Sat Dec 16 23:28:45 2000 From: sanjayroy780 at CS.COM (S Roy) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 00 23:28:45 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065530.23782.12462864244883756178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The etymology of black and white in "hindoo" context is rather interesting - the common words for them being "kala" and "gora" respectively. While the former is,putatively, derived from mal etc and may well have a dravidian (tamil) origin, the latter appears related to gaura,gaur etc (the ancient city in bengal/bihar area?) moreover, the grouping of brahmins themselves is,historically, split along the Vindhyan range as typified by the pancha gaura in the north and pancha dravida in the south with the konkanastha being an exception (Only 3 groups, as far as i know, are meat-eaters and are in the periphery) while white (zveta,zukla,dhavala,gaura) etc was, evidently, much prized in ancient india, a trace of brownness in the hair- much like the red hair in the north-west Europe - was thought very unbeautiful and inauspicious (The wonder that was India, Basham). In modern india, kala/kallu/kalia etc do not signify, or evoke, same degree of contempt implicit in blacky/nigger etc in europe/america for obvious reasons and such terminology is considered "normal" and stated matter-of- factly.However, much like the western world, the negative association persists as in "kala-pani","kali-kaluti","kala-dil","kala-akchar","kala- bhaisa etc... From sivadasi at EROLS.COM Sun Dec 17 05:11:51 2000 From: sivadasi at EROLS.COM (Katherine K. Brobeck) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 00:11:51 -0500 Subject: Tirthanka Message-ID: <161227065541.23782.1704389654164652475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May I ask, in all humility, if there is any work in English which traces all of the Tirthanka listed in the Mhb., pinpoints their location, and gives current names? I?ve got most of them, but neither Dey, Bhardwaj, or Law identified all of them? Please forgive an amateur for asking. . . Katherine Brobeck Lincoln Public Library Lincoln, MA 01773 ---------- >From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: publication of IASS papers on CDROM >Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000, 10:42 PM > >>.... check the "Print to File" checkbox when >>printing to this phantom printer from any application. The file will >>be created as a .PRN file, but it's really a .PS file which the ps2pdf >>utility (available for Windows as part of GhostScript, from >>www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost) will happily convert to PDF. > > This is a workable solution, but remember that the .PRN format > generated by "printing to file" is a "pseudo" version of .ps, > and often creates some problems with page numbers. When viewing > the resultant file on a postscript viewer, it will allow you to > go forward one page at a time, but not backward. It will also > not allow you to jump to a particular page number. Watch out > for large file sizes too. A 200 K MS Word document can easily > be converted to a 1.5 M postscript file. > > Vidyasankar > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Dec 17 06:52:47 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 01:52:47 -0500 Subject: Harappan Euhemerus In-Reply-To: <3A3C58C7.3579C5D7@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227065548.23782.17417394188862800061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: >Euhemerism is simply the technical name for what Shendge is >doing. The term refers back to the work of Euhemerus, fl. ca. 300 >BCE, whose _Sacred History_ suggested that all ancient myths >could be traced back to specific historical events. About 100 years ago a certain Fritz Bonsens (sic!, a.k.a. Alfred Hillebrandt) attacked, in a pamphlet called "Die Goetter des Rgveda. Eine euhemeristische Skizze", the method of explaining the mythology of the Veda as "nature mythology", -- a method begun by M. Mueller, Roth, Kuhn, Bergaigne, Bloomfield... and Hillebrandt. Bonsens therefore begins: "Once upon a time, there was Indra, a great Raajan, just as there still are Raajans in India today", and ends with "The Rgveda does not know of phenomena of nature that have become gods, it knows only of human beings." For the full text of the parody (people then still had a sense of humor), see Hillebrandt's Kleine Schriften, ed. RP Das, Wiesbaden: Steiner 1987. Enjoy. Then read Shendge. Then read W. Rau's tongue in cheek, matter of fact book review in ZDMG : "Rudra, the leader of the alpine brigade, was also in charge of house numbers...." As Bonsens said : long live Euhemerus! ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Dec 17 06:57:02 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 01:57:02 -0500 Subject: Harappan language (latest Frontline URL) In-Reply-To: <20001217000917.35957.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065546.23782.4797555640505313125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This "ivory tower expert" on India (who has lived and worked for 5 1/2 years in Nepal and India), and is otherwise termed a "Romantic Euro-centric Missionary Communist," (NS Rajaram) will not run out of steam for along time, but he must strongly protest against being put in the company of white supremacists: P. Manansala (welcome back from friendlier, anything goes territories!) wrote: >> Does this mean Witzel and Farmer are in the same >> company with white supremacists... A.Jha answered: >Judging by thier recent articles in that Leftist >magazine Frontline and their tirades against whosoever >speaks for Hindus (without Aryan-Dravidian divide), >the answer to your question is a big YES. Small question, for which I beg enlightenment from Akilesh Jha (author of: Sexual designs in Indian culture, 1979?) : How can a recently anointed Communist (to be exact, as of Oct. 13, 2000) share company with "white supremacists"? Rationalists of all countries, unite! PS: I did not know so far that only S. S. Misra, S. Talageri, K. D. Sethna, S. P. Gupta, Bh. Singh, M. Shendge, Bh. Gidwani, P. Chaudhuri, A. Shourie, and S.R. Goel speak for Hindus... without the Aryan Dravidian divide (add: the Sino-Tibetan divide: Newars, Manipuris, and the Austronesian divide: Balinese!) Of course, all these peoples belong to the same language family, and ethnic group... :^) ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 17 03:42:28 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 03:42:28 +0000 Subject: publication of IASS papers on CDROM Message-ID: <161227065535.23782.815360947907977409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >.... check the "Print to File" checkbox when >printing to this phantom printer from any application. The file will >be created as a .PRN file, but it's really a .PS file which the ps2pdf >utility (available for Windows as part of GhostScript, from >www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost) will happily convert to PDF. This is a workable solution, but remember that the .PRN format generated by "printing to file" is a "pseudo" version of .ps, and often creates some problems with page numbers. When viewing the resultant file on a postscript viewer, it will allow you to go forward one page at a time, but not backward. It will also not allow you to jump to a particular page number. Watch out for large file sizes too. A 200 K MS Word document can easily be converted to a 1.5 M postscript file. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sun Dec 17 03:54:22 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 03:54:22 +0000 Subject: Harappan Euhemerus Message-ID: <161227065537.23782.14629205970908178209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: > Do so and you will find the full range of Rgvedic gods -- > Indra and Varuna and Vishnu and Rudra and the Ashvins, etc. -- > transformed euhemeristically into Indus Valley officials or > flesh-and-blood heroes of the "Aryas" who supposedly brought the > Valley to its knees. Ok, so Shendge may be guilty of unwarranted hyperbolic elaboration in her reconstruction of specifics but why should one simply dismiss a suggestion that certain gods were orginally mere mortals as euhemerism just because the transformation took place in prehistoric / proto-historic times ? As I am sure you are aware, there are many examples known from other parts of the ancient world but where the apotheosis is better documented and thus more transparent. Is it the hyperbole or the hypothesized apotheosis that you object to ? I do not see how one could definitively disprove the second of these alternatives. Personally, I welcome all honestly argued theories that challenge conventional thinking -- we often need to be open-minded and rethink our cherished assumptions and perhaps eventually modify them by elements drawn from seemingly far-fetched hypotheses otherwise knowledge remains static. The crackpot of one era often comes to be seen later as a progenitor of the current standard theories. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 17 09:35:35 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 09:35:35 +0000 Subject: Harappan Euhemerus Message-ID: <161227065550.23782.5933339203430021966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: >of "Vishnu, the young, tall, lanky assistant of Indra." But I'm >an evidential scholar, Stephen. I'd be happy to discuss whatever Vishnu = Upendra, advises Indra to use the vajra on Vrtra, who hid the cosmic waters. Vishnu also takes three mysterious steps. If you take into account the Puranic legend, any midget who suddenly grows into a tall giant must have been quite lanky :-)) >> access to the Asura weapons and secures a vajra, thunderbolt, >> from the chief counsellor of the Asuras, Ushanas... That one throws me. I thought Dadhici, with the horse's head, who supplied the bones to make the vajra, was an Atharvan ... I have no idea what Malati Shendge really writes, but I wonder what makes it okay and non-euhemeristic to refer to the mythical Dadhichi whenever archaeologists discover real horse skulls in ancient graves. Vidyasankar From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Sat Dec 16 23:28:39 2000 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard B Mahoney) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 12:28:39 +1300 Subject: PDF In-Reply-To: <"from gm"@ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM> Message-ID: <161227065528.23782.363044235645934749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, It seems to me that this thread has, amongst other things, succeeded in emphasising that the production and manipulation of file types -- especially PS and PDF files -- can involve a number of complex issues. I would hope that the discussion has not caused anyone to shy away from the whole idea. Postscript and PDF files remain an extremely useful medium for sharing papers. Could I mention, then, for those of you who don't already know, that a great deal of assistance, often of extremely high quality, is available from the following newsgroups: comp.text.tex comp.text.pdf comp.lang.postscript Many of the issues which have been raised -- font quality, compatability, conversion et caetera -- are discussed frequently on these newsgroups. Hopefully this is of assistance. Many regards, Richard Mahoney On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 10:50:59PM +0100, Gunthard Mueller wrote: > Good point. > In fact, some of these PostScript-to-PDF converter programs are of > extremely high quality. > However, some of them don't allow you to directly integrate fonts into the > PDF file. [snip] -- end ====================================================================== Richard Mahoney Telephone: +64-3-351-5831 78 Jeffreys Rd Christchurch NEW ZEALAND mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Dec 17 12:44:04 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 13:44:04 +0100 Subject: SV: Harappan Euhemerus Message-ID: <161227065555.23782.7692557895011484313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Steve, here is an aside (off-list). You may be interested to know that Thor Heyerdahl, of Kon-Tiki fame, recently has come up with a project trying to prove that Odin was a Central Asiatic chieftain who migrated with his people from Azov (compare Aesir) to Scandinavia. In this theory, he is following Snorri Sturluson to the letter. Being a Great Man, he has managed to secure funding for going to Azov in order to dig out our Norse forefathers, linking Odin to the Udin people. Unfortunately, he has been the victim of exactly the same kind of arrogant, snotty treatment that our innovative hindutva friends and Shendge have to suffer from obsolete academic professional. So far several articles have been published in Aftenposten, the country's largest newspaper, by Heyerdahl and the Academic Meanies. The Shendges of this world are not alone! Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 17 14:15:14 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 14:15:14 +0000 Subject: Indologist writings on the Web like R. Eaton Message-ID: <161227065556.23782.15255197663250237676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are several books that will be useful for folks interested in South Asian studies: http://www.ucpress.edu/scan/books.html Totally free of cost!! Richard M. Eaton The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760. This book can be read for free at: http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/6108.html Eaton has done part I, Temple desecration in pre-modern India which has appeared in the latest Frontline. http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1725/17250620.htm Have a qn./suggestion to Indologists: There are only about (perhaps) 200 or so serious researchers on pre-modern India in the West. Only, they and their affliated university libraries can afford the Indological academic publications. Given the rupee/dollar ratio, and poor funding of humanities and libraries in India, would it be possible to put more books written on Indian history, etc. on the web along the lines of Berkeley initiative? The readership market will grow exponentially as India gets wired to the web more and more. The latest critiques and theories will reach more pf Indian public, now they are given only hindutva publications of Rajararam, etc. and euhemeristic authors like Malti Shendge. I'd guess Indologists may not mind putting their books, articles on the web because most of their research is accomplished by funding from tax money. UC at Berkeley is showing a way to procure funds. Any thoughts? Regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From juftina at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 17 15:47:01 2000 From: juftina at HOTMAIL.COM (tina debruyn) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 15:47:01 +0000 Subject: Indologist writings on the Web like R. Eaton Message-ID: <161227065560.23782.13151712120893062269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sir, We are the oldest Publishers of Indian books (EST.1871) namely M/S Khemraj Shrikrishnadass prop: Shri Venkateshwar Steam Press, Bombay & now are launching a web site. www.khemraj.com This is to enquire & request you to please guide me as I am the fourth generation of the Khemraj family looking after the same business & my name is Mr. Sanjay Bajaj & enable me to show to the world the treasures of India & our books ofcourse with your little help. Please tell me how do I include my URL to your site & listing & oblige. Thanking You! For M/S Khemraj Shrikrishnadass Sanjay Bajaj Email: sanjay at khemraj.com >From: Venkatraman Iyer >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Indologist writings on the Web like R. Eaton >Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:15:14 +0000 > >There are several books that will be useful for folks interested in >South Asian studies: >http://www.ucpress.edu/scan/books.html >Totally free of cost!! > >Richard M. Eaton >The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760. This book can be >read for free at: >http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/6108.html > >Eaton has done part I, Temple desecration in pre-modern India which >has appeared in the latest Frontline. >http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1725/17250620.htm > >Have a qn./suggestion to Indologists: >There are only about (perhaps) 200 or so serious researchers on >pre-modern India in the West. Only, they and their affliated >university libraries can afford the Indological academic publications. >Given the rupee/dollar ratio, and poor funding of humanities and >libraries in India, would it be possible to put more books written on >Indian history, etc. on the web along the lines of Berkeley >initiative? The readership market will grow exponentially as India >gets wired to the web more and more. The latest critiques and theories >will reach more pf Indian public, now they are given only hindutva >publications of Rajararam, etc. and euhemeristic authors like Malti >Shendge. > >I'd guess Indologists may not mind putting their books, articles on >the web because most of their research is accomplished by funding from >tax money. UC at Berkeley is showing a way to procure funds. > >Any thoughts? > >Regards, >V. Iyer > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Dec 17 15:08:45 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 16:08:45 +0100 Subject: SV: Indologist writings on the Web like R. Eaton Message-ID: <161227065558.23782.5398741141401976658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer [venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM] wrote: > Have a qn./suggestion to Indologists: > There are only about (perhaps) 200 or so serious researchers on > pre-modern India in the West. Only, they and their affliated > university libraries can afford the Indological academic publications. > Given the rupee/dollar ratio, and poor funding of humanities and > libraries in India, would it be possible to put more books written on > Indian history, etc. on the web along the lines of Berkeley > initiative? The readership market will grow exponentially as India > gets wired to the web more and more. The latest critiques and theories > will reach more pf Indian public, now they are given only hindutva > publications of Rajararam, etc. and euhemeristic authors like Malti > Shendge. > > I'd guess Indologists may not mind putting their books, articles on > the web because most of their research is accomplished by funding from > tax money. UC at Berkeley is showing a way to procure funds. > > Any thoughts? This is a very important point which I too have tried to make on occasion. Indians are often seriously handicapped when it comes to following up what happens in Western Indology, simply because many Western publications (both books and journals) are obscenely expensive. The result is a skewed debate where Indians can be criticized for not being up-to-date, but where they don't have the chance to be so in the first place. I once suggested on this list that Indologists should make English their "business language" (drop French and German etc. that are not always mastered by Indians). Another way of getting around this problem, is to insist upon the publication of journals and books on Indian matters in India. In other words: drop the prestigious, but extremely expensive Western publishers if you want to reach Indians in India as well as people in the West. But somehow, I don't think this will happen. Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Mon Dec 18 01:03:35 2000 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 17:03:35 -0800 Subject: Indologist writings on the Web like R. Eaton Message-ID: <161227065573.23782.10544952551852628544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: This is a very important point which I too have tried to make on occasion. Indians are often seriously handicapped when it comes to following up what happens in Western Indology, simply because many Western publications (both books and journals) are obscenely expensive. Not only Indians. The subscription rates for professional journals in general require that one be independently wealthy. Even the online versions of some of the journals are high. The solution lies with the authors. The copyright belongs to the author unless he or she sells/gives it to the journal. Professional journals in the legal field are often willing to let the author copyright the article. Is this not true of Indological journals? If the copyright is retained, there would be no legal impediment to also publishing the article in a web-based journal, say a few months after its publication in the prestigious journal. Prof. Witzel's e-journals are an example of what could be done. After awhile, the major paper-based journal publishers might have to compete. It could also be an avenue for avoiding confinement to publication-on-CDROM. David From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Sun Dec 17 23:22:57 2000 From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (hans henrich hock) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 17:22:57 -0600 Subject: Dravidian origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065568.23782.6661949433581606011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For a starter, you might look at my paper "Pre-?Rgvedic convergence between Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) and Dravidian? A survey of the issues and controversies." In: Ideology and status of Sanskrit: Contributions to the history of the Sanskrit language, ed. by J. E. M. Houben, 17-58. Leiden: Brill. 1996. In the paper I give a brief and, I hope, fair overview of various pertinent theories and their problems. The bibliographical references should open the way to further, more in-depth presentations of the various views. Best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock >Dear listmembers, > >Since I wanted to know something about the Dravidian languages without >going so far as to read a grammar of Tamil, I sat down to read Zvelebil's >article in Encyclopaedia Britannica (Vol. 22, 15th edition). In the third >paragraph, he states: "Nothing definite is known about the origin of the >Dravidian family." > Well, let us see what this professed ignorance leads to: > >1. There are vague indigenous traditions about an ancient migration from >the south. >2. According to some scholars, Dravidian languages are indigenous to India. >3. A hypothesis has been gaining ground that posits a movement of Dravidian >speakers from the northwest to the south and east of the peninsula, a >movement originating possibly from Central Asia. (This hypothesis is not >substantiated, and Zvelebil later confesses that "nothing definite is known >about the ancient domain of the Dravidian parent speech".) >4. Another theory connects the Dravidian speakers with the peoples of the >Indus Valley civilization. >5. The circumstances of the advent of Dravidian speakers in India are >shrouded in mystery. (An "advent" is now taken for granted.) >6. It is possible that a Dravidian-speaking people that can be described as >dolichocephalic Mediterraneans mixed with brachycephalic Armenoids and >established themselves in northwest India during the 4th millennium BC. >Along their route, they may have possibly come into an intimate, prolonged >contact with Ural-Altaic speakers, thus explaining the striking affinities >between the Dravidian and Ural-Altaic language groups. (No such affinities >are mentioned.) >7. It is possible that Proto-Brahui was the first language to split off >from Proto-Dravidian, probably during the immigration movement into India >some time in the 4th millennium BC... > >Now, if nothing definite is known about the origin of the Dravidian family, >or about the ancient domain of the Dravidian parent speech, why speculate >about an immigration movement? And why must this immigration have happened >in the fourth millennium BC? > >One sentence (p. 698) is completely unintelligible to me: "Several scholars >have demonstrated that pre-Indo-Aryan and pre-Dravidian bilingualism in >India provided conditions for the far-reaching influence of Dravidian on >the Indo-Aryan tongues..." What pre-IA and pre-Dravidian languages were >involved here? (No other languages are mentioned.) The conclusion is also >enigmatic: "Thus a form of Proto-Dravidian... must have been extensive in >north India before the advent of the Aryans." > >Perhaps somebody on this list with some insight into the matter would care >to explain what is meant by pre-(not proto-)Indo-Aryan and pre-Dravidian >bilingualism? > >Best wishes, >Bjarte Kaldhol From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sun Dec 17 19:21:51 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 19:21:51 +0000 Subject: Harappan Euhemerus Message-ID: <161227065562.23782.6124073995797746313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: > Euhemerism is simply the technical name for what Shendge is > doing. Thank you for the little potted explanation of Euhemerus but I was aware of who he was and the ideas he propounded in his "Sacred History". I discuss him and other related matters inter alia in my recent book on Atlantis theories -- you will also see from it what my views are about imaginitive reconstructions of ancient history and pseudo-scientific diffusionist theories. > Beyond Shendge, you would be hard pressed to find any modern adherents. But if we strip away her "imaginative reconstructions", is there intrinsically any reason why she should be totally wrong in general terms ? I have not read her particular book you quote from, but I wonder who she was writing for -- an academic audience or a popular one. Publishers have a lot to answer for in their demands on authors ! > We are *not* talking here -- to reply to one of your questions -- about single > acts of apotheosis. So ? > But I'm an evidential scholar, Stephen. But often hypotheses go for decades without evidential corroboration, only to be proven at a later date -- look at astro and nuclear physics. There seems to be a greater willingness to tolerate "daring" or unusual theories in that field. New theories like Shendge's have a value inasmuch as they might make consensus scholars re-evaluate known facts. I seem to remember that you had certain theories about the oral transmission of the Vedas in the absence of written texts but later conceded that it could well be an exceptional case. I imagine that both yourself and the "professional" Indologists found the exchange fruitful. I find it sad when some people are not prepared to give other honest and presumably sincere scholars the benefit of doubt but instead ridicule or misrepresent those ideas as though oneself knew all the answers. > I'd be happy to discuss whatever > textual evidence you think lies behind this miraculous historical > reconstruction. You misunderstand me. I was not writing in support of her reconstructions at all but I was questioning the overall dismissal of her theories that may eventually turn out to be wrong but are nevertheless thought-provoking. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From GthomGt at CS.COM Mon Dec 18 01:03:05 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 20:03:05 -0500 Subject: Harappan Euhemerus Message-ID: <161227065572.23782.15343672391926057126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Stephen Hodge's posts Defense of Euhemerism as a theoretical possibility is one thing. Defense of Shendge's books on Vedic is quite another. These books are fantastic misinterpretations of Vedic. That is an inescapable fact that makes your theoretical defense of them moot. Look at these books. You will see what I mean. In short, Steve Farmer is not being closed minded here at all, as you seem to suggest. He is merely stating what is obvious. Best wishes, George Thompson From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Sun Dec 17 12:11:22 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 20:11:22 +0800 Subject: Re. Devaraja In-Reply-To: <20001216141952.9587.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065552.23782.1915255472976231304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> Khmer prediliction for Linga and Devaraja began much, much earlier, since the very founding of the kingdom, according to Chinese sources. Ling-kia-po-po referred to in Chinese is Lingaparvata in Skt. Kambu Swayambhuva, Kaundinya, etc (early references of 1/2 AD) shows Khmer links with Linga concept. It is believed that Kaundinya could well have been a run-away prince during Kanishka's time who founded the early Khmer empire. At any rate, rudravarman, Bhavavarman, Mahendravarman, Ishanavarman, all of whom were Linga worshippers and well preceded the 9th Cwentury. The worship of Harihara (Siva and Vishnu in a single form) during the 6/7th Century is similar to the ones found in the Pallava period of 450AD. Nothing (NOTHING) seems to have been modified anew, since the concept was simply transported from the texts of Saiva Siddhanta and Kashmira Saiva siddhanta in perticular. Linga does not mean phallic except in the Tantra context. Linga, according to Saiva siddhanta, means symbol, a mark, a sign, an emblem. In Vedanta it means the subtle frame or body, the indestructible origin of the visible gross form. Khmer kings seem to have used the Linga as a symbol in the context of their conquests (to mark their extent of teritory), upon which they inscribed poems of royal praise. They installed Lingas in the cave space of the mountains to indicate the Vedantic concept of the subtle Linga sarira. Shakti cult does not seem to have taken deep roots here. " A King's personal deification is different from saying the king identified his own subtle Spirit with the subtle body (Linga Sarira) of Siva (Truth). There is a subtle difference here! Radhika -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Ven. Tantra Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 10:20 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re. Devaraja N. Ganesan wrote: <> I see the apparent connection you draw, but could not "Mahendra" simply have been a popular royal name for the period? All the same, it may be of interest to review the incident in 802 when the Hiranyadama accompanied His Majesty King Jayavarman II and his esteemed guru Zivakaivalya into the depths of the moss-laden forests of *Mahendraparvata* (present-day Mt. Kulen). It was there that the brahman "of apparent Indian birth" satisfied the king by performing the rites of the Devaraja so that the king would become the cakravartin. Afterwards, Hiranyadama turned to the king s own guru and revealed the secrets of the Tantric rites, even teaching him the pertinent Tantric texts. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Dec 17 20:34:35 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 20:34:35 +0000 Subject: Multiple River Names Message-ID: <161227065564.23782.751150326634675911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is one Sindhu river fortunately with five eastern tributaries (VitastA,AsiknI,Paru.sNI,VipAsh,and ShutudrI) and six western tributaries (SuvAstu,GaurI,KubhA,Krumu,GomatI and Sarayu-Talageri, p.104, Rigveda).But there are two SarasvatIS-one Rigveda SarasvatI flowing two Arabian Sea and the second Afghan SarasvatI flowing to a lake.It is said that because the Rigvedic seer, Kavasa Ailu.s was Dasyu Putra, other priests cast him out.In anger he chanted a powerful hymn inducing the holy river SarasvatI to follow him to desert.What is the opinion of scholars about this legend? The name SarasvatI traveled all the way to Europe(Lithuanian river and the name Serb-Croat related to Hrvat related to SarasvatI), but it stopped in the Northwestern region of the sub-continent.According to one view, the earlier name of the Central Asian river Jaxartes was D.r.satvatI flowing northwest towards the Aral Sea.Again there was/is D.r.satvatI east of the ancient Indian SarasvatI.It was tributary of SarasvatI.To the best of my knowledge, the name D.r.satvatI is not found other than for these two rivers.There is the second name YavyAvatI to the Indian D.r.satvatI (Talageri-p.456, Rigveda).Prof Witzel believes YavyAvatI is Zhob river of N.Baluchistan.Then there is Oxus of Central Asia.Could it be Rasa or RanhA river? Now we have three Sarayus(First of Uttar Pradesh, Second, the western tributary (Talageri)of Sindhu and the third Dr.Kochhar's Afghan Sarayu)and two GomatIS (First of Uttara Pradesh and Second, the western tributary of Sindhu).Thanks God, at least there is one Sindhu.These multiple river names enforce my earlier opinion that it is too early to take position regarding a large scale one-way migration from East to West or from West to East.I also find it difficult to believe that one tribe drove other tribes out of the sub-continent in the prehistoric times. In the known history, when Cyrus the Great (549-530BCE)reached in the middle of Afghanistan during expansion of his empire, he told his soldiers that beyond these mountains our cousin brothers lived.Cyrus knew the past history of the world and respected Indians.All tribes were there from prehistoric times in the region of Iran and India and they were related.The real trick is to push under the rug the true Dravidian history of the ancient South India by outplacing Dravidians in the Central Asia first and bringing them later on into the sub-continent "Chori-Chori" or "Chupke- Chupke" before the well dramatized arrival of the Aryans. From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Sun Dec 17 22:18:22 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 00 23:18:22 +0100 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065566.23782.9715429893762367193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, Since I wanted to know something about the Dravidian languages without going so far as to read a grammar of Tamil, I sat down to read Zvelebil's article in Encyclopaedia Britannica (Vol. 22, 15th edition). In the third paragraph, he states: "Nothing definite is known about the origin of the Dravidian family." Well, let us see what this professed ignorance leads to: 1. There are vague indigenous traditions about an ancient migration from the south. 2. According to some scholars, Dravidian languages are indigenous to India. 3. A hypothesis has been gaining ground that posits a movement of Dravidian speakers from the northwest to the south and east of the peninsula, a movement originating possibly from Central Asia. (This hypothesis is not substantiated, and Zvelebil later confesses that "nothing definite is known about the ancient domain of the Dravidian parent speech".) 4. Another theory connects the Dravidian speakers with the peoples of the Indus Valley civilization. 5. The circumstances of the advent of Dravidian speakers in India are shrouded in mystery. (An "advent" is now taken for granted.) 6. It is possible that a Dravidian-speaking people that can be described as dolichocephalic Mediterraneans mixed with brachycephalic Armenoids and established themselves in northwest India during the 4th millennium BC. Along their route, they may have possibly come into an intimate, prolonged contact with Ural-Altaic speakers, thus explaining the striking affinities between the Dravidian and Ural-Altaic language groups. (No such affinities are mentioned.) 7. It is possible that Proto-Brahui was the first language to split off from Proto-Dravidian, probably during the immigration movement into India some time in the 4th millennium BC... Now, if nothing definite is known about the origin of the Dravidian family, or about the ancient domain of the Dravidian parent speech, why speculate about an immigration movement? And why must this immigration have happened in the fourth millennium BC? One sentence (p. 698) is completely unintelligible to me: "Several scholars have demonstrated that pre-Indo-Aryan and pre-Dravidian bilingualism in India provided conditions for the far-reaching influence of Dravidian on the Indo-Aryan tongues..." What pre-IA and pre-Dravidian languages were involved here? (No other languages are mentioned.) The conclusion is also enigmatic: "Thus a form of Proto-Dravidian... must have been extensive in north India before the advent of the Aryans." Perhaps somebody on this list with some insight into the matter would care to explain what is meant by pre-(not proto-)Indo-Aryan and pre-Dravidian bilingualism? Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 18 08:33:39 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 00:33:39 -0800 Subject: Re. Devaraja Message-ID: <161227065581.23782.10253083754210863652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gratitude to R. Srinivasan and N. Ganesan for recent instructive postings. Funan was the seedbed for a fusion between Indian and local culture that produced the new civilization called "Khmer." Recent postings have clarified this as _south_ Indian or *Tamil* culture. But technically speaking I believe "Funan" needs to be considered pre-Khmer ? "Cambodia" being a loosely generic term. I had heard, but not been made aware of direct Tamil influence on Early Cambodia. The first Cambodian realm began no later than the 1st century CE and coincided with prosperous Indianized kingdom of Funan. Funan is the Chinese name. Most of what we know comes from Chinese dynastic annals. From the 2nd to the 6th century, the Funanese dominion spread across what is today the southern part of Cambodia and the Mekong Delta. Re. Saivism. R. Srinivasan mentions varied forms of Shiva-based worship and philosophical speculation among the Khmer. My main source up till now has been Kamaleswar Bhattacharya, an expert in Khmer epigraphy: ?The Religions of Ancient Cambodia? (97). Saivite Monism with its ?multiple bodies? philosophy was especially influential among the Khmer. This was also inspired by Shankar?s Advaita Vedanta school and by the Tamil Saivite Agamas. In the 7th and late 9th centuries the Pashupata school also appeared. Re. Syncretic tendencies. These are marked in Khmer culture and seem to reflect great religious tolerance. This was supported theoretically by the Indian notion of the ?unity of self.? Hence the image of Harihara, half-Vishnu half-Shiva, emerging as early as the pre-Angkorian period. Its importance is shown by the naming of the royal town of Hariharaalaya, founded by Jayavarman I as the capital of his Aninitapura kingdom. It was the Cambodian capital immediately preceding the first Angkorian city of Yashodharapura. Re. Shiva-Buddha syncretism is also evident. In a Sanskrit inscription dated 1067, there is an enlargement of the classic Hindu-trinity in order to incorporate the historical Buddha. This extraordinary Saivite tetralogy is called zaivii caturmuurti, ?Shiva in four-forms.? [Question: Did this innovation appear in the Tamil country or anywhere in India or elsewhere?] The inscription relates the rising of a Shivalinga together with the images of Vishnu, Brahma and Buddha. At their highest respective metaphysical levels, there is hardly any difference in the two religions (ibid.). The Buddha assumes four ?bodies,? presumably, Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, Nirmanakaya, and Shivakaya. An inscription dated 1129, speaks of a devotee of Shiva offering a gift to the ?Buddha of the Bamboo Park? and specifies Buddha as identified with Shiva. Re. Shaktism. Srinivasan comments that the <> I have tended to identify the extreme forms of Shiva worship as those related to the outgrowth Shiva?s consort Shakti, the personification of the divine primordial power. The most excessive of these incorporate human sacrifice. In India, they are _thought to have begun_(?) around the 7th century in Kamarupa (present day Assam), at the infamous Kamakhya temple. This is where the Vedic injunction svarga kaamo yajeta or ?the heaven-desiring must sacrifice? was interpreted to its most distressing conclusion. In 1565, 140 victims were decapitated during a single sacrificial ceremony. Yet, among the Khmer, human sacrifice was known as early as the 6th century as recorded in the Chinese _History of the Sui_: "Near the Capital is a mountain called Ling-kia-po-p?o, at the summit of which is a temple always guarded by a thousand soldiers and consecrated to a spirit named P?o-to-li, to which they sacrifice men. Each year the king himself goes into the temple to make a human sacrifice during the night." I believe this temple is known today as Vat Phu and located at the summit of Lingaparvata (Ling-kai-po-p?o), a sacred mountain. Re. Linga. In the context of human sacrifice, linga worship may be traceable to primordial cults prevalent throughout the whole of ancient ?monsoon Asia? (Bhattacharya). Srinivasan offered very clear analysis from the top down, as it were, from the view of a superimposed/adopted Saivite philosophy. A primordial perspective, from the bottom up, may also be relevant. This entertains an autochthonous people involved in forms of supplication performed for the promotion of agricultural and feminine fecundity. In this regard, the culturally sophisticated shivalinga, as the symbol of the fertilizing energy of Shiva, was originally a primitive phallic symbol ?descended from the uncarved stones of earth cults? And indeed, the rite of setting up large long stones in the soil (vis. the menhir) and conducting human sacrifice before them, was a widespread feature of primordial cultures throughout the Neolithic world. [Paul Mus, ('34)]. This is running too long now. Rgrds. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 18 00:59:07 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 00:59:07 +0000 Subject: rAjalIlAsana in Cambodia? Message-ID: <161227065570.23782.4223994361525848460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: <<< Cambodia had a King Mahendravarman almost at the same time as Pallava Mahendravarman. Their titles were citrasEna and citrakArapuli respectively. Jean Boisselier says Khmer art was highly influenzed from the art of South India. Hence, my question: In Cambodia, have any avalokitezvara and/or Shiva sitting in rAjalIlAsana ever found?? >>> Ven. Tantra wrote: >I see the apparent connection you draw, but could not >"Mahendra" simply have been a popular royal name for >the period? Apart from the fact that we find mahendra malai in Tamil country also, the Tamil transcription of Mahendra mountain as "Mayentiram" found in tamil Saivaite texts (eg. TiruvAcakam) and famous Saivaite sites (eg. MayentirappaLLi) sung in 7th century Tevaram and the corresponding transcription into Chinese and Cambodian from tamil "Mayentiram" in the 5th century gives us a clue of the geographical location. Mahendravarman of the Pallava dynasty, was a famous monarch. Who are the other kings with "Mahendra" in their name that you mention? Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 18 01:14:13 2000 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 01:14:13 +0000 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065575.23782.580071886885683273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 18 14:21:12 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 06:21:12 -0800 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065593.23782.1786198653276121756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many scholars, even linguists, speculating on Drav. origins do not know any Dravidian language, this may be minor and inconsequential, may be. Romantics imagined the PIE motherland to be India first, that idyll has been thrown out long ago, but the romantic idea about Sanskrit persists in the pop culture of Europe, To check with the situation on the ground in India Dravidian studies with instituitional support will help, but those endowments are very rare. --- Bjarte Kaldhol wrote: > But my problem is that I have no time for such studies. I would have liked > to see one or two arguments in favour of an immigration theory and a > reference to the "striking affinities" with Ural-Altaic languages (which > may not have existed in any known form in the fourth millennium!). Anyhow, > affinities with other languages cannot prove an immigration into India. > Best wishes, > Bjarte Kaldhol > > ---------- > From: hans henrich hock > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Dravidian origins > Date: 18. desember 2000 00:22 > > For a starter, you might look at my paper "Pre-?Rgvedic convergence > between Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) and Dravidian? A survey of the issues > and controversies." In: Ideology and status of Sanskrit: > Contributions to the history of the Sanskrit language, ed. by J. E. > M. Houben, 17-58. Leiden: Brill. 1996. In the paper I give a brief > and, I hope, fair overview of various pertinent theories and their > problems. The bibliographical references should open the way to > further, more in-depth presentations of the various views. > > Best wishes, > > Hans Henrich Hock > > > > >Dear listmembers, > > > >Since I wanted to know something about the Dravidian languages without > >going so far as to read a grammar of Tamil, I sat down to read Zvelebil's > >article in Encyclopaedia Britannica (Vol. 22, 15th edition). In the third > >paragraph, he states: "Nothing definite is known about the origin of the > >Dravidian family." > > Well, let us see what this professed ignorance leads to: > > > >1. There are vague indigenous traditions about an ancient migration from > >the south. > >2. According to some scholars, Dravidian languages are indigenous to > India. > >3. A hypothesis has been gaining ground that posits a movement of > Dravidian > >speakers from the northwest to the south and east of the peninsula, a > >movement originating possibly from Central Asia. (This hypothesis is not > >substantiated, and Zvelebil later confesses that "nothing definite is > known > >about the ancient domain of the Dravidian parent speech".) > >4. Another theory connects the Dravidian speakers with the peoples of the > >Indus Valley civilization. > >5. The circumstances of the advent of Dravidian speakers in India are > >shrouded in mystery. (An "advent" is now taken for granted.) > >6. It is possible that a Dravidian-speaking people that can be described > as > >dolichocephalic Mediterraneans mixed with brachycephalic Armenoids and > >established themselves in northwest India during the 4th millennium BC. > >Along their route, they may have possibly come into an intimate, prolonged > >contact with Ural-Altaic speakers, thus explaining the striking affinities > >between the Dravidian and Ural-Altaic language groups. (No such affinities > >are mentioned.) > >7. It is possible that Proto-Brahui was the first language to split off > >from Proto-Dravidian, probably during the immigration movement into India > >some time in the 4th millennium BC... > > > >Now, if nothing definite is known about the origin of the Dravidian > family, > >or about the ancient domain of the Dravidian parent speech, why speculate > >about an immigration movement? And why must this immigration have happened > >in the fourth millennium BC? > > > >One sentence (p. 698) is completely unintelligible to me: "Several > scholars > >have demonstrated that pre-Indo-Aryan and pre-Dravidian bilingualism in > >India provided conditions for the far-reaching influence of Dravidian on > >the Indo-Aryan tongues..." What pre-IA and pre-Dravidian languages were > >involved here? (No other languages are mentioned.) The conclusion is also > >enigmatic: "Thus a form of Proto-Dravidian... must have been extensive in > >north India before the advent of the Aryans." > > > >Perhaps somebody on this list with some insight into the matter would care > >to explain what is meant by pre-(not proto-)Indo-Aryan and pre-Dravidian > >bilingualism? > > > >Best wishes, > >Bjarte Kaldhol > ---------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From agood at BLUENOTE.DEMON.CO.UK Mon Dec 18 08:42:26 2000 From: agood at BLUENOTE.DEMON.CO.UK (Anthony Good) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 09:42:26 +0100 Subject: Patriarchal and Matriarchal societies In-Reply-To: <977097584.1015432.0@listserv.liv.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227065583.23782.10967720275220586331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> on 18/12/00 01:00, "L. Suresh Kumar-LSK" wrote, in part: > Last night, (Friday-Dec-15-2000), I was watching a program on > A&E channel, which was titled "Paradise Lost". It talked about > Egyptian and Mesapatomian civilizations. The program dealt with > both 'patriarchal and matriarchal societies' in these > civilizations.... > > Now, to the best of my knowledge, I did not hear any mention > about how the societies evolved into P/M in the present day > Indian sub-continental region in the past. [ I started > watching it only from the middle of it ]. > > Questions - "What was the nature of the society in the > present day Indian sub-continental region in the past ? > Was it a patriarchal or matriarchal society ? How was this > presented in our ancient literature ? What kind of evidence > do we have from archeological studies ? Were all societies > P or M ? When did one change from P to M and viceversa ?" There is, to the best of my knowledge, no evidence that there have *ever* been matriarchal societies as such arguments normally portray them. The mistake often rests on either (a) a confusion between matriarchy and matrilineal descent; and/or (b) unjustified inferential reasoning based on the existence of goddess worship. Both features are reasonably common among contemporary societies and those in the historically documented past. However, NONE of the societies concerned can reasonably be characterised as 'matriarchal'. A more radical critique would be to attack the terminology itself, i.e., to point out the inadequacy of characterising whole civilisations, in their full complexity, in terms of such simplistic dichotomous labels. In those terms, it is not meaningful to describe societies as patriarchal either. Tony Good -- Dr Anthony Good Department of Social Anthropology, University of Edinburgh Edinburgh EH8 9LL 0131-650-3941 (work) 0131-650-3945 (fax: work) A.Good at ed.ac.uk (work) agood at bluenote.demon.co.uk (home/travel) From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Mon Dec 18 11:31:34 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 12:31:34 +0100 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065585.23782.16814637892448631251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> But my problem is that I have no time for such studies. I would have liked to see one or two arguments in favour of an immigration theory and a reference to the "striking affinities" with Ural-Altaic languages (which may not have existed in any known form in the fourth millennium!). Anyhow, affinities with other languages cannot prove an immigration into India. Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol ---------- From: hans henrich hock To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Dravidian origins Date: 18. desember 2000 00:22 For a starter, you might look at my paper "Pre-?Rgvedic convergence between Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) and Dravidian? A survey of the issues and controversies." In: Ideology and status of Sanskrit: Contributions to the history of the Sanskrit language, ed. by J. E. M. Houben, 17-58. Leiden: Brill. 1996. In the paper I give a brief and, I hope, fair overview of various pertinent theories and their problems. The bibliographical references should open the way to further, more in-depth presentations of the various views. Best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock >Dear listmembers, > >Since I wanted to know something about the Dravidian languages without >going so far as to read a grammar of Tamil, I sat down to read Zvelebil's >article in Encyclopaedia Britannica (Vol. 22, 15th edition). In the third >paragraph, he states: "Nothing definite is known about the origin of the >Dravidian family." > Well, let us see what this professed ignorance leads to: > >1. There are vague indigenous traditions about an ancient migration from >the south. >2. According to some scholars, Dravidian languages are indigenous to India. >3. A hypothesis has been gaining ground that posits a movement of Dravidian >speakers from the northwest to the south and east of the peninsula, a >movement originating possibly from Central Asia. (This hypothesis is not >substantiated, and Zvelebil later confesses that "nothing definite is known >about the ancient domain of the Dravidian parent speech".) >4. Another theory connects the Dravidian speakers with the peoples of the >Indus Valley civilization. >5. The circumstances of the advent of Dravidian speakers in India are >shrouded in mystery. (An "advent" is now taken for granted.) >6. It is possible that a Dravidian-speaking people that can be described as >dolichocephalic Mediterraneans mixed with brachycephalic Armenoids and >established themselves in northwest India during the 4th millennium BC. >Along their route, they may have possibly come into an intimate, prolonged >contact with Ural-Altaic speakers, thus explaining the striking affinities >between the Dravidian and Ural-Altaic language groups. (No such affinities >are mentioned.) >7. It is possible that Proto-Brahui was the first language to split off >from Proto-Dravidian, probably during the immigration movement into India >some time in the 4th millennium BC... > >Now, if nothing definite is known about the origin of the Dravidian family, >or about the ancient domain of the Dravidian parent speech, why speculate >about an immigration movement? And why must this immigration have happened >in the fourth millennium BC? > >One sentence (p. 698) is completely unintelligible to me: "Several scholars >have demonstrated that pre-Indo-Aryan and pre-Dravidian bilingualism in >India provided conditions for the far-reaching influence of Dravidian on >the Indo-Aryan tongues..." What pre-IA and pre-Dravidian languages were >involved here? (No other languages are mentioned.) The conclusion is also >enigmatic: "Thus a form of Proto-Dravidian... must have been extensive in >north India before the advent of the Aryans." > >Perhaps somebody on this list with some insight into the matter would care >to explain what is meant by pre-(not proto-)Indo-Aryan and pre-Dravidian >bilingualism? > >Best wishes, >Bjarte Kaldhol ---------- From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Dec 18 13:07:02 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 13:07:02 +0000 Subject: Fwd: 2nd Intl Conference on Skanda-Murukan (fwd) Message-ID: <161227065589.23782.3387943618214052679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:09:40 -0800 From: Patrick Harrigan Subject: Fwd: 2nd Intl Conference on Skanda-Murukan Dear Dominik, Thank you for including a link to the Institute of Asian Studies, Chennai, and for helping to announce the First International Conference on Murukan in Dec 1998. Now we are organising the Second Conference in Mauritius in April 2001. [...] I am posting this to you directly. First let me also take the opportunity to submit links to these four websites relevant especially to Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka, followed by the Murukan Conference announcement (Conference home page: http://murugan.org/events/conf2001.htm with best regards, Patrick Harrigan Institute of Asian Studies http://murugan.org Murugan Bhakti: The Skanda-Kumara website Comprehensive site devoted to the pan-Indian god Skanda or Murugan both in Sanskrit and Tamil sources including images of the deity, articles & news. http://kataragama.org Comprehensive site devoted to the deity Skanda-Murugan of Kataragama and his cult in Sinhala, Sanskrit and Tamil sources including images of the deity, articles and news. http://vedda.org Website of Sri Lanka's forest-dwelling people the Veddas or Wanniyal-aetto and other indigenous peoples of Sri Lanka. http://livingheritage.org website of the Living Heritage Trust of Sri Lanka: its objectives and activities including Pottuvil-Okanda sanctuary, collaboration with indigenous peoples, Zones of Peace and related activities. ************************************* SECOND INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE SEMINAR ON SKANDA-MURUKAN 24-28 April 2001 in MAURITIUS CALL FOR PAPERS The First International Conference Seminar on Skanda-Murukan hosted by the Institute of Asian Studies (Chennai) in Chennai in 1998 brought together for the first time over 100 scholars of various disciplines from 21 countries around the world sharing a common interest in the composite Aryan-Dravidian god Skanda-Murukan. The Second International Conference Seminar on Skanda-Murukan will take place in Mauritius from 24 to 28 April, 2001. Since late Vedic times in the Sanskrit tradition and perhaps far earlier among proto-Dravidian and tribal peoples of the South, the vigorous and complex deity Skanda or Murukan has exerted a powerful influence upon Indian literature and religious thought. Even today, his cult continues to command the allegiance of millions in South India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Singapore, Mauritius and wherever there are expatriate Tamil communities. CONFERENCE DETAILS AT A GLANCE: * Hosted by the Mauritius organising committee for the 2nd International Murukan Conference with Government of Mauritius patronage; * Organised by the Institute of Asian Studies, Chennai; * Hosted by the Mahatma Gandhi Institute of Moka, Mauritius * Theme of the 2nd Conference: "Murukan devotion among the Tamil diaspora". * Proposals for presentations concerning the cult of Skanda-Murukan from earliest times up to the present will be considered from these ten disciplinary perspectives: * Sociology * History * Art History * Folklore * Ethno-musicology * Mythology * Religion * Anthropology * Philosophy * Literature NOTE: The Conference will provide meals and accommodation for the entire four-day conference, extras and a post-conference tour of Mauritius will be provided for participants, observers and their spouses for a nominal charge of US$200 per person. Presenters of papers will also receive a gratis copy of the Conference proceedings when it is released. Participants are requested to complete a registration form, but there is no registration charge. Interested participants should contact the Conference Secretary for details about topic suitability, etc. and submit a short synopsis (approx. 250 words or one page) describing the proposed research paper. Only research proposals conforming to international academic standards will be considered for inclusion. See the Call for Papers for full details. Deadline for submission of abstracts (approximately 250 words): 30 January 2001. Enquiries about arrangements in Mauritius should be directed to: Mr. Maga Ramasamy, Secretary Mauritius Organising Committee mramasamy at airmauritius.intnet.mu or visit the Murukan Conference home page: http://murugan.org/events/conf2001.htm Language of presentation: Conference papers will be accepted in French, English and Tamil. In absentia presentations: Because of the considerable distance and expense involved for many delegates to attend a conference in Mauritius, delegates may also choose to have their papers read at the Conference in absentia. Direct flights to Mauritius from Chennai Air Mauritius has inaugurated direct service between Mauritius and Chennai. Delegates from South India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Singapore, etc. may book their flights to and from Mauritius directly with the Conference organisers. Conference brochure: The International Planning Committee based at the Institute of Asian Studies in Chennai has printed official brochure-announcements for the Conference, including registration forms and full details about the 2nd Murukan Conference. The brochure and other details may be by contacting the Murukan Conference organisers directly at: Murukan Conference Organising Committee International Centre for the Study of Skanda-Murukan Institute of Asian Studies Chemmancherry, PO Sholinganallur Chennai - 600 119 India Telefax: (091) 44 496-0959 or (091) 44 496-0085 Website: http://xlweb.com/heritage/asian/ E-mail: ias at xlweb.com Murukan Conference home page: For more information and online registration form, go to the official home page of the Murukan Conference at http://www.murugan.org/events/conf2001.htm. Murukan Conference newsletter: For regular updates, subscribe to the Murukan Conference newsletter. To read past issues or to subscribe, go to: http://eGroups.com/group/murukan_conference For details or to register, contact: Patrick Harrigan, Conference Secretary harrigan at murugan.org or Maga Ramasamy, Secretary Mauritius Organising Committee mramasamy at airmauritius.intnet.mu ___________________________________________________________________________ Visit http://www.visto.com/info, your free web-based communications center. Visto.com. Life on the Dot. From kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 18 12:08:14 2000 From: kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 13:08:14 +0100 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) In-Reply-To: <200012162359.eBGNxcM12383@orion.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227065586.23782.4082555147741825513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [I subscribe to digest. So, this post may not properly refer to the origina I am referring.] I understand the problem with PDF files produced TeX/LaTeX -> dvi file -> PS file -> PDF is that even though PDF files can contain fonts, in this case, they actually are a bitmap fonts (opposite to outline fonts, such as PS or TrueType fonts). Thus resulting undesirable appearances viewd in or printed from the Acrobat Reader. If the original dvi file or the PS file resulting produced by dvips was specified to be printed on a certain printer, depending on the resolution of the printer, TeX uses certain set of pk fonts, which are bitmaps. As long as the fonts included in the PDF file are outline fonts (PS or TrueType fonts), it does not matter what resolution the printer which the user is trying to print out has. But, if a PDF file was produced with certain printer resolution in mind, which, unfortunately, is the case for most TeX documents, the resulting printout from Acrobat Reader is not optimal if the printer's resolution was different. (It seems Acrobat reader has trouble properly renderging 600dpi bitmap fonts in 72/75/100/300/360 dpi.) There are packages for LaTeX2e to use Type-1 fonts, and the above problem may be solvable. Still, there are a couple of problems: 1) Devanagari/Sanskrit fonts for TeX/LaTeX have been Metafont format, which at the end of the day becomes pk files and included in the PDF file as bitmaps. 2) I have yet to find a solution to use Type-1 fonts with Plain TeX. Unfortunately, I believe quite a few indologists use edmac package by Dominik Wujastyk to prepare critical editions, which is a macro package for Plain TeX. It does somehow work with LaTeX2e, but has a great limitation. Not everything or most of the things one expects from LaTeX2e does not work in combination with edmac. 3) PDF files produced by dvi -> ps -> pdf method does not allow search, etc. provided by Acrobat reader. 4) ps2pdf does not compress the resulting PDF file, because of Unisys's licensing insistence on LZW compression scheme. Thus huge file even compared to the PS file. etc. Although I think PDF is the least evil format to publish electronically at this moment, it is far from optimal. (I do provide PDF files to Mac/Windows users if I do not feel like killing trees or spending time and money to go to a post office and pay a postage.) In my opinion, It is still too early to go for only electronic publication. I would ideal solution is to publish electronically AND traditionally (on paper). If PS or PDF files are produced anyway for electronic publication, why not print couple of hundred copies and bind them nicely for the readers (or especially libraries) who would prefer to have paper copy? Since paper version is a luxary, it could be significantly more expensive than electronic version to recover the cost of printing and binding. I think it still nice for a publication to have ISDN or LC number as a book, not as a CD-ROM. CD-ROM may here to stay, but so do 5-inch or 8-inch floppies. It is not impossible to find an ancient machine to read them, but it is not easy. ISO-9660 format may not be changing, but file systems for the OSes are likely to change. (It is hard to think that MacOS will not drop the support for HFS format at some point.) Most of the OSes perhaps will provide backward compatibilities for certain period of time, but I am increasingly finding that ``backward compatibility'' is a big lie. In addition, who could be certain that removable media will not desappear from desktop computers. (See for example, iMac without floppy drive.) The computer industry, I believe, is always moving toward elimination of any moving parts, because they are the most prone to mechanical trouble. (Aren't companies trying to find an alternative to hard-drives?) So, I think it is not a good idea to go for all electric publication yet. Please note that I am not against publishing anything electronically. The optimal, at this stage of development of technologies, is to publish in both ways. And wasn't that the point of the first post on this issue? -- kengo From Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU Mon Dec 18 03:14:27 2000 From: Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Dr. Greg Bailey) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 14:14:27 +1100 Subject: reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065577.23782.16823533246531856660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Bob, I am thinking of applying for the Doshi Chair in Early Indian History at UCLA. Could I put your name down as a referee, please. Do you know anything about the position? Things here are as hectic as ever. I am redrafting the GP trasnlation for the third time and tryinfinish off other bits and pieces. In addition, all my daughters are living with me nw. That's OK but causes a bit of rearrangement. Are you going to the Montreal Conference in May. I am. Cheers to you and Sally, Greg From Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU Mon Dec 18 03:36:13 2000 From: Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Dr. Greg Bailey) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 14:36:13 +1100 Subject: reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065579.23782.5284654517107631178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, Sorry, once again for sending a personal message. Cheers, Greg Bailey From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Mon Dec 18 14:36:20 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 14:36:20 +0000 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065595.23782.4578164596596700001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 18 Dec 2000 06:21:12 -0800, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Sanskrit persists in the pop culture of Europe, To check with > the situation on the ground in India Dravidian studies with instituitional > support will help, but those endowments are very rare. Why look for presumably western endowments.? Parties calling themselves 'dravidian' have been in existence for half a century with the public exchequer in their control.'Dravidian' varsities have been established, dozens have immolated themselves with petrol in an imagined attempt to 'save' Tamil and millions have been moved to think positively of 'dravidian' languages. If all this does not help Dravidian studies, why depend upon western endownments? From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Mon Dec 18 14:15:48 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 15:15:48 +0100 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) Message-ID: <161227065591.23782.7346247157397692852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many interesting points. However, please note that mass storage is what we are talking about, not removable media. Removable media are just one type of mass storage, as are tapes, hard disks, floppies, etc. Without mass storage, there will be no archives at all, no data security, nothing. Since day 1, computers have used mass storage. In fact, computer design requires mass storage. Or have you ever tried to design a data bus without one??? Even if hard drives disappear (they will), they will be replaced by another type of mass storage. The technical innards of these are going to be amazing (they are working on optical transfer and molecular designs already, and IBM has just released advance notice of a new form of hard disk based on micro-perforation, etc.), and there will be extremely long-lasting forms of media in future. There will also be fast internetworking, and whether the media of the future will be sent by post or rather transmitted over a network is also of secondary importance. What is important is that there is no computer without mass storage, as I can assure you as somebody who has been programming them for around 15 years. You can make the mass storage remote (over a form of network), but that is a trivial point. There will always be a form of mass storage. Look out for mass-storage with up to 500-year estimated life spans next. We already have 200 years of estimated life span now with normal CD-ROMs. Further, MacOS HFS has ALREADY been superseded by TWO other MacOS file systems, and the issue has nothing to do with the ISO-9660 issue. MacOS HFS could easily be superseded because it is not an ISO norm and not accepted by other platforms. So superseding it was an Apple-internal decision and therefore bound to happen for ephemeral reasons. Things are different when norming has taken place. ISO-9660 is itself a file system and has nothing to do with a single company or lobby. Is is the normed file system for CD-ROMs. As such it will be readable in future. To sum up, we are not talking about backward-compatibity. The issue is to package data in such a way that they are forward-compatible. By using ISO norms on all levels involved, we are providing just that. Concerning TEX: I generally discourage using TEX altogether. Only TEXies (a special form of esoteric computer guru scene) favours it, because it has become part of their lifestyle and provides them with a digital survival zone within which they are indispensable and therefore cannot be abolished. There is actually no need to use TEX anymore for anything. I have been involved with writing TEX converters and creating metafonts when that was an interesting technology (about 12 years ago), but the world has moved on. You only find TEX gurus nowadays in artificially preserved biotopes where they can go on playing with dinosaurs without penalty. The rest of the world has moved on to SGML tools and Unicode. The best thing you can do to TEX is to convert it to modern formats and then put it on the shelf for good. I wonder if it makes sense to devote so much time to tech issues on this list. I for my part will now go off the list on this topic for a while. Take care, Gunthard Mueller gm at e-ternals.com Kengo Harimoto wrote: > [I subscribe to digest. So, this post may not properly refer to the > origina I am referring.] > > I understand the problem with PDF files produced TeX/LaTeX -> dvi file > -> PS file -> PDF is that even though PDF files can contain fonts, in > this case, they actually are a bitmap fonts (opposite to outline > fonts, such as PS or TrueType fonts). Thus resulting undesirable > appearances viewd in or printed from the Acrobat Reader. > > If the original dvi file or the PS file resulting produced by dvips > was specified to be printed on a certain printer, depending on the > resolution of the printer, TeX uses certain set of pk fonts, which are > bitmaps. As long as the fonts included in the PDF file are outline > fonts (PS or TrueType fonts), it does not matter what resolution the > printer which the user is trying to print out has. But, if a PDF file > was produced with certain printer resolution in mind, which, > unfortunately, is the case for most TeX documents, the resulting > printout from Acrobat Reader is not optimal if the printer's > resolution was different. (It seems Acrobat reader has trouble > properly renderging 600dpi bitmap fonts in 72/75/100/300/360 dpi.) > > There are packages for LaTeX2e to use Type-1 fonts, and the above > problem may be solvable. Still, there are a couple of problems: > > 1) Devanagari/Sanskrit fonts for TeX/LaTeX have been Metafont format, > which at the end of the day becomes pk files and included in the PDF > file as bitmaps. > > 2) I have yet to find a solution to use Type-1 fonts with Plain TeX. > Unfortunately, I believe quite a few indologists use edmac package by > Dominik Wujastyk to prepare critical editions, which is a macro package > for Plain TeX. It does somehow work with LaTeX2e, but has a great > limitation. Not everything or most of the things one expects from > LaTeX2e does not work in combination with edmac. > > 3) PDF files produced by dvi -> ps -> pdf method does not allow > search, etc. provided by Acrobat reader. > > 4) ps2pdf does not compress the resulting PDF file, because of > Unisys's licensing insistence on LZW compression scheme. Thus huge > file even compared to the PS file. > > etc. > > Although I think PDF is the least evil format to publish > electronically at this moment, it is far from optimal. (I do provide > PDF files to Mac/Windows users if I do not feel like killing trees or > spending time and money to go to a post office and pay a postage.) In > my opinion, It is still too early to go for only electronic > publication. I would ideal solution is to publish electronically AND > traditionally (on paper). If PS or PDF files are produced anyway for > electronic publication, why not print couple of hundred copies and > bind them nicely for the readers (or especially libraries) who would > prefer to have paper copy? Since paper version is a luxary, it could > be significantly more expensive than electronic version to recover the > cost of printing and binding. I think it still nice for a publication > to have ISDN or LC number as a book, not as a CD-ROM. > > CD-ROM may here to stay, but so do 5-inch or 8-inch floppies. It is > not impossible to find an ancient machine to read them, but it is not > easy. ISO-9660 format may not be changing, but file systems for the > OSes are likely to change. (It is hard to think that MacOS will not > drop the support for HFS format at some point.) Most of the OSes > perhaps will provide backward compatibilities for certain period of > time, but I am increasingly finding that ``backward compatibility'' is > a big lie. In addition, who could be certain that removable media > will not desappear from desktop computers. (See for example, iMac > without floppy drive.) The computer industry, I believe, is always > moving toward elimination of any moving parts, because they are the > most prone to mechanical trouble. (Aren't companies trying to find an > alternative to hard-drives?) > > So, I think it is not a good idea to go for all electric publication > yet. Please note that I am not against publishing anything > electronically. The optimal, at this stage of development of > technologies, is to publish in both ways. And wasn't that the point > of the first post on this issue? > > -- > kengo From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Dec 18 20:19:27 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 15:19:27 -0500 Subject: odd flute and dacoit Veerappan Message-ID: <161227065599.23782.13429264028213125223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the cover of Frontline, Nov. 24, 2000, the well known Tamil Nadu bandit Veerappan is shown playing a vertical bamboo flute at least 4 feet long to my eye, with a breath tube about 40% of the visible length from the bottom. It also has fresh leaves pasted a two spots on the tube. If this is a fipple flute (in the family with recorders, penny whistles, etc.) the notch of the fipple is not visible. Could this mean the sound is produced by a reed single or double in the breathpiece, or in the main tube where the breathpiece enters it? Are the leaves to change the tuning temporarily while one raga or another is played, or are they corrections for misplaced holes, or are they to produce a buzzing sound like a kazoo? There is no discussion of Veerappan's musical talents in the article. I had not heard of them previously but I have not followed the newsmagazines' accounts of him closely. I will of course check the abundant printed works on Indian musical instruments but would appeciate any comments. Allen Thrasher From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 18 17:30:12 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 17:30:12 +0000 Subject: nAraNa_n, the tamil word for nArAyaNa (was: Vishnu) Message-ID: <161227065597.23782.4244549737995449595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Luis Gonzales-Reimann wrote: >It is very common in Sanskrit texts to associate NArAyaNa's color >with the different yugas. He is white in KRta and black in Kali. The >obvious implication is that white is the best color and black the worst. >See the MahAbhArata, 3.148.16, 23, 26, 33 and 3.187.31. This is also stated >by BhAsa at the very the beginning of his BAlacarita (where it is said that >NArAyaNa's body was the color of milk or conch in the KRta >Yuga-zaGkha-kSIra-vapus). This idea is then repeated in later PurANas. Thanks, I have read about the scheme of colors of Narayana and also the yugas themselves from your mails. The colors associated with yugas and Narayana coincide or correlate well with the colors described for varNas. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9705&L=indology&P=R7749 All these color schemes has a "descending" valency from "best" to "worst": the colors of Narayana in each yuga or the yuga's color per se or the numbers in the dice throws or the colors associated with each varNa are in a state of "decline". There is an "anthropological" explanation for all the color scheme mentioned in Mahabharata onwards. Take the case of the Rgveda and Avestan gathic literature. It has "white" against "black" dyadism well spelt out. Also, the aarya varNa vs. daasa varNa in the earliest Vedic material. The brahminical scheme of classification seems to have initially only black versus white dualism. Later caste classifications for plants, animals, and even for fish, ... flourish. Diighanikaya has an attack on aaryavarNa vs. daasavarNa (ie., white vs. black) leading to accomadation. See M. Deshpande's note on B. Smith's book on varNa classification of the Universe in India: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9604&L=indology&P=R4916 The sea colored deity, nArAyaNa (=nAraNan in tamil), whose color is black, was given a theological speculation and a folk etymology was proposed in ancient times. "nAra" = 'water' was "invented" to explain away the name nAraNan/nArAyaNa. Monier-Williams gives: "(pl.) water (also sg. n. and %{A} f. L.) Mn. i , 10 (prob. invented to explain %{nArAyaNa}) ; = %{nArAyaNa} L. ;" May be tamil "nIr" = water (> Skt. nIra) was thought to be close to the "invention" nAra = water in this theological speculation about nArAyaNa from water. Tamil has many -L-/-r- pairs as pointed out in this thread: kALi/kAri 'the black Goddess'; kuLam/kuram 'hoof'; Aratti/ALatti 'showing camphor flame'; nALikEram/nArikEram 'coconut', etc., nAlikam is water buffalo (recorded in Skt. as well) and 'crow' named after their black color. Nallamalai range produces River Krishna which is 'kaNhapeNNA' in Buddhist literature. Naraka seems to have a Drav. root "naL/nal/nar'=black. The tamil pair "nAL/nAr"=black has been used to form nARaNan = the black god (Cf. compare the other name in Dravidian for Narayana/Vishnu = mAl = 'black'). In the mArkaNDeyasamasyaparvan of the MBh., and bhAgavatam, the god nArAyaNa floats on the banyan leaf in the sea. The aeons-old deathless sage M. was wandering through the immense Night of Brahma. Every thing in that dark night was contained within Narayana. The sage goes deep into the ocean, the radiant jewel Narayana was floating on the fig leaf. But the radiant jewel is the black jewel ("karu maNi") floating on the banyan leaf in the ocean. I have a reproduction of Narayana-child floating on the banyan leaf with dark blue of lapis lazuli done at Tipu Sultan's court. (I think Stella Kramrisch published it.) And, all paintings of Narayana/Vishnu sleeping in the snake couch portray him as 'dark' (black=krishna varNam). One of the more extensive versions of bRhatkathA is in Tamil. KoGkuvELir rendered it in Tamil. 800 AD? Tamil peruGkatai has an elephant named naLakiri. It has a description "kAriruG kun2RiR kavin2 peRat tOn2Ra" (PG.1.44.84). Here, the elephant naLakiri(=naLagiri) is compared to a "big, black hill". kAr = black (karu-), irum = big, kun2Ru = hill. Compare nArAyaNa (=tamil nAraNan, 'black god') with nALagiri which possibly means 'black hill' of the buddhist legends. On the other hand, Tamil literature in ancient times is completely devoid of the black versus white dualism seen in the aaryan texts. In fact, nAraNan and black bee etc. are commonly praised as "black jewels". Foll. J. Bronkhorst, Is there an inner conflict of tradition, (Aryan and Non-Aryan volume, Harvard, '99) "Does the opposition which the early Indian tradtion itself introduces by distinguishing Aryans from non-Aryans help us to understand later developments of Indian culture? ... here the use of bricks in the Agnicayana, which H. S. Converse (1974) tried to explain through the assumption of indigenous influence on Vedic ritual. Another example is the Mahavira vessel in the Pravargya, which J.A.B. van Buitenan (1968) considered to have an iconic nature, and the worship he did not hesitate to describe as pUjA. ... Indeed, Heesterman concludes his article "Brahmin, ritual, and renouncer" with the foll. remark: "The brahmin, then, is the exemplar of the irresolvable tension that is at the heart of Indian civilization." I believe this tension-filled opposition of ideas in the ancient India of different groups of folks led to the color coding of Narayana. The acculturation and accommodation of the bilingual Aryans adjusted to the majority preference of colors, and the white color preference in the RV and pitting it against the evil black is gradually submerged. The end result: "Narayana was white in the first yuga, BUT he is black now." We all live in Kaliyuga which is black, it is the yuga of zUdras who are many where zUdra-varNa is black, and of course Narayana (=tamil nAraNan) is black in this kali-yuga. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 19 02:02:41 2000 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 21:02:41 -0500 Subject: idealism, Yogacara etc. Message-ID: <161227065608.23782.5678214198442132721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satya Upadhya: In regards to the part of your posting which mentioned Yogaacaara as an "idealistic" school and also S. Hodge's posting, one way of investigating this point alone (i.e. whether it is truly an idealist school) would be to look at Stefan Anacker's "Seven Works of Vasubandhu" and Thomas Kochumuttom's "A Buddhist Doctrine of Experience". Within Anacker's book, you can read through the Madhyaanta-vibhaaga in both Sanskrit and/or English and perhaps the Trisvabhaava (3 essence or natures)-nirdesa. Through grappling with the trisvabhaava (3 essences or natures) doctrine, perhaps you can get some idea of whether or not this school is truly 100% idealism. My impression is that it is not, but I'm not a specialist in Yogaacaara. The reason I say that it is probably not is due to the doctrine of paratantra svabhaava or dependent nature. It seems that this svabhaava is indicating reality as it is, although I could be wrong. Another way to investigate the 3 nature/essence theory would be to look at Ake Boquist's review of much of the Yogaacaara literature related to this doctrine. Boquist has published a short book (about 100 pgs. or so) in which he translates passages from the Samdhinirmocana, Mahayaanasuutraalamkaara etc. Also, there was a good panel at the AAR this year on Yogaacaara. Hope this helps, Lynken Ghose PS. I agree with S. Hodge's posting about s'uunyavaada not being idealistic. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 19 00:03:06 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 00:03:06 +0000 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065602.23782.10250272777481395341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >1. Am i correct in believing that the Advaita Vedanta has much in >common >with the two idealistic schools of Mahayana Budhism Yes, there are points and themes in common. >(soonyavada and vijnaanvada) so much so that there is very little > >difference between the Advaita and the two idealistic schools of >Budhism? The question is rather ill-posed. zUnyavAda is different from vijnAnavAda, even though they have things in common. Similarly, advaita vedAnta is different from zUnyavAda and different from vijnAnavAda, even if it has things in common with both. >2. Kumarila Bhatta's "Sloka Vartika" contains an attack on Indian >idealism >(he attacks the "dreaming argument", the so called >mystic trance of the yogis, the theory of "two truths", etc.) Am i >correct >in assuming that he attacks here both Mahayana Budhism as >well as Advaita Vedanta? As Kumarila was pre-Sankara, this becomes a very complicated question. To adequately address it, one needs to check whether the doctrines criticized by Kumarila can be found in the very meagre corpus of pre-Sankaran texts of vedAnta. I am unaware of any studies that progress beyond speculating about this. It would be far more preferable to conclude, after a careful study of the texts, rather than to assume things a priori. >3. Am i correct in assuming that the Advaita Vedantists surreptiously > >borrowed ideas from the Mahayana Budhists(in particular the Re: the two truths, if there was any borrowing, it was not very surreptitious. It was done out in the open, but also note that the vedAntin "two truths" theory differs in crucial ways from the Mahayana Buddhist theory. Check gauDapAda's kArikAs, as also Sankara's discussion in the sUtrabhAshya. As a matter of fact, one can't borrow anything surreptitiously. Borrowal implies full knowledge/consent on the part of the donor. Surreptitiousness implies stealing, without knowledge or consent of the owner. However, 1. ownership/copyrights on philosophical ideas? 2. see bRhadAraNyaka 4. 5. 15, for the upanishadic origin of the mature advaita vedAnta theory of two truths. Note that in mattavilAsaprahasana, a farcical play by Mahendra Varman, the "curiously-minded" king (600 CE), a Saiva accuses the Buddha himself of having borrowed Upanishadic ideas. This kind of estimation is fine in a drama, but I think comparative study of philosophies should account for many subtleties. Best regards, Vidyasankar ps. Re: vAcaspati mizra, the author of law-books, e.g. vyavahAra cintAmaNi was another author of the same name, who lived in the 15th century. The author of bhAmatI and nyAya-vArttika and sAMkhya-tattvakaumudI was _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 19 00:09:59 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 00:09:59 +0000 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065604.23782.4632708067966903934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for sending out a mail with an incomplete postscript. I wanted to say, Re: vAcaspati mizra, the author of law-books, e.g. vyavahAra cintAmaNi and vivAda cintAmaNi, was another author of the same name, who lived in the 15th century. The author of bhAmatI and nyAya-vArttika and sAMkhya-tattvakaumudI was a 9th-10th century personality. Two different vAcaspati mizra-s. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Dec 19 01:40:30 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 01:40:30 +0000 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065606.23782.11848720227986386911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satya Upadhya wrote: I cannot answer all your questions but would like to draw your attention to a few potential problems: > 1. Am i correct in believing that the Advaita Vedanta has much in common with the two idealistic schools of Mahayana Budhism (soonyavada and vijnaanvada) so much so that there is very little difference between the Advaita and the two idealistic schools of Budhism? *** 1. The `suunya-vaada of Maadyamika can hardly be characterized as "idealism" -- the whole point is that they are any kind of "--ism". 2. The sirtuation with Yogacara (Vij~aana-vaada) is very complex. It is now increasing recognized that mush of Yogacara, especially the early period works of maitreya, Asa`nga and Vasubandhu are *not* idealism at all in any sense understood by the term in Western philosophy. Dan Lusthaus has written an interesting paper available from his website - sorry don't have URL to hand but i's easy to find -- entitled something like "What Yogacara is not". If you can't find it I could email it as an attachment to you. Later Yogacara (Dharmapaala and after) divides into two trends, one of which does seem open to idealistic interpretatiosn but even this is not clear since most Western language access to this is based on Xuang-zang's Chinese version which is often but unncessarily translated (by Lamotte et al) with an predetermined idealistic slant. Maadyamika accounts of Yogacara mostly seem to misrepresent the latter - perhaps because they were polemical opponents -- and ignore clear indications that Yogacara is *not* idealism. > 3. Am i correct in assuming that the Advaita Vedantists surreptiously borrowed ideas from the Mahayana Budhists (in particular the idea of making a distinction between truth at the provisional practical level of life ("samvriti satya" or "vyahvarika satya") , and the higher metaphysical ultimate truth ("parmarthik satya") I have not looked into this in detail -- just understanding Yogacara alone is hard enough. One pointbto note is that one must determine first whether one thinks that Buddhists use the terms "sa.mv.rtti-satya" and "paramaartha-satya" ontologically or epistemologically -- the latter seems to be the preferred understanding among the classical Buddhist Mahayana scholars. It is often rumoured that Gaudapada was a crypto-Buddhist but I do not know how valid this is. It is also said that the Yoga-va`si.s.ta borrowed considerbaly from Mahayana (Yogacara) ideology but again I have not looked into this in detail despite the fact that the Yoga-vi`si.s.ta is a wonderful work that I would study if I had more time. I would, however, imagine that some scholars have studied the parallels. Hope this helps a little. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 19 14:56:36 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 06:56:36 -0800 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065627.23782.3382024537075198454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote: >Why look for presumably western endowments.? Parties calling >themselves 'dravidian' have been in existence for half a century with the >public exchequer in their control.'Dravidian' varsities have been >established, dozens have immolated themselves with petrol in an imagined >attempt to 'save' Tamil and millions have been moved to think positively >of 'dravidian' languages. >If all this does not help Dravidian studies, why depend upon western >endownments? ""Why look for western endowments?"" - In the same vein, "why look for jobs in England or America?, why look for medicine, planes, ... from the west?" Didn't you read the recent discussions on how the humanities research is linked to the library reources?, In India the libraries are poorly funded, and many universities spend their money on administrative staff (running into 100s of peons, ...) Eg. Tamil university in Tanjore does not publish anything for a decade or so, and bankrupt financially. I don't how Sanskrit university at Kanchi or Kaladi is doing, they are too recent to know how they fare in the long run. But many are on the verge of collapse, the euhemeist Malti Shendge says Indology is stagnant. We need both Indians and foriegners to make it dynamic. Regarding the usage of library resources needed to write in this scholarly forum, an example of the non-use of Indological resources: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0011&L=indology&P=R16478 Since joining this list about a month ago, you write against the western scholarship and christian missionaries working in India. Scholarship knows no national borders, and this will become increasingly clear for anyone studying the relevant publications. Best, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 19 15:14:17 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 07:14:17 -0800 Subject: On the name Pitchumani Message-ID: <161227065629.23782.10677232123979134902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Compare tamil names like piccamuttu, kuppamuttu, kuppai/kuppu (Mahamahopadhyaya Kuppusamisastri), maNNukkaTTi/maNNAGkaTTi (Salem/Dharmapuri), and kannada/tamil names like sAyaNa(n). Is -sAyi in anantasAyin, rangasAyin, vaTapatrasAyin Tamil? Monier-Williams does not give it as Sanskrit in the meaning used here. --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > Dear Listmembers, > > What is the traditional understanding of the Tamil name Pitchumani? Does it > originate simply from bhikSa? Does anybody relate it to ziva at all? I > believe Srivaishnavites also have that name. Do they have a different > understanding of the name? Thanks in advance. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Dec 19 14:38:58 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 09:38:58 -0500 Subject: On the name Pitchumani Message-ID: <161227065626.23782.3239494412556444742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Listmembers, What is the traditional understanding of the Tamil name Pitchumani? Does it originate simply from bhikSa? Does anybody relate it to ziva at all? I believe Srivaishnavites also have that name. Do they have a different understanding of the name? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 19 10:38:35 2000 From: jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM (Jesualdo Correia) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 10:38:35 +0000 Subject: idealism, Yogacara etc. Message-ID: <161227065610.23782.2296108907219020904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lynken Ghose wrote: ( snip ) > >Ake Boquist's review of much of the Yogaacaara literature related to this >doctrine. Boquist has published a short book (about 100 pgs. or so) in >which >he translates passages from the Samdhinirmocana, Mahayaanasuutraalamkaara >etc. > >Also, there was a good panel at the AAR this year on Yogaacaara. > Dan Lusthause and Charles Muller have been putting on the net excellent and comprehensive material on yogaacara. Looking at their site is an absolute must. I also strongly recommend David King?s articles and particularly Lusthause?s recently published " Buddhist Phenomenology...". _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Dec 19 10:50:11 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 10:50:11 +0000 Subject: International Conference on the Mahabharata (fwd) Message-ID: <161227065612.23782.16259611201054984365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:11:14 -0600 From: Frank Morales Subject: International Conference on the Mahabharata International Conference on the Mahabharata Organized by the Chair of Hindu Studies, Concordia University Dates: June 7th, 8th, and 9th, 2001 Location: Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada Themes: 1) Methodological Problems of Teaching the Mahabharata. 2) Character Analysis Based on Ethical Issues. 3) Challenges and Responses in the Context of Philosophical, Social and Other Issues. Please send by e-mail the title of your paper, indicating the category of the theme under which it should fall, along with an abstract of about 300 words by January 1, 2001. Send to rukmani at alcor.concordia.ca. Postal Address: Dr. Shrinivas Tilak, Department of Religion, Concordia University, 1455 de Maisonneuve Boulevard West, Montreal, Quebec, Canada H3G 1M8 . Selected abstracts will be included in the brochure being planned for the Conference. Please forward this to your colleagues and e-mail lists. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frank Morales, M.A. Languages and Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison fmorale1 at students.wisc.edu Home (608) 288-0266 Dharma Central: http://www.dharmacentral.com/ "How many have not asked 'What is Truth' and at bottom hoped that vast spaces would intervene before truth came so close to him that in the immediate now it would determine his duty for action at that very moment?" Soren Kierkegaard From SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK Tue Dec 19 11:19:35 2000 From: SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK (John Brockington) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 11:19:35 +0000 Subject: International Conference on the Mahabharata (fwd) Message-ID: <161227065613.23782.14585880928352744167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, With regard to the message that Dominik has just forwarded, please note the change of dates (see below). Yours John Brockington >Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:43:13 -0800 (PST) >From: "Shrinivas Tilak" >Subject: Mahabharata Conference 2001: New dates and registration info > > Dear List Members: Kindly circulate the following communication among >those interested. Thanks, > S.Tilak > > *************** > International Conference on the Mahabharata > May 18, 19, 20 2001 > Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec > Canada >Dear Participant: > > Because of circumstances beyond our control, the conference had to be >rescheduled. The revised programme is provided below. Please send your >abstract and register as early as possible. Thanks for your understanding >and cooperation, > Shrinivas Tilak, Coordinator. > Professor J. L. Brockington Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies University of Edinburgh 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW U.K. tel: +131 650 4174 fax: +131 651 1258 From A.Fort at TCU.EDU Tue Dec 19 17:47:27 2000 From: A.Fort at TCU.EDU (Fort, Andrew) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 11:47:27 -0600 Subject: Presidendanz e-address Message-ID: <161227065636.23782.4682453091200376696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have Karin Preisendanz's e-address? You may send it to me privately. Thanks in advance. Andy Fort Andrew O. Fort, Professor of Religion TCU Box 298100 Fort Worth TX 76129 a.fort at tcu.edu (817) 257-6448 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 19 12:07:04 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 12:07:04 +0000 Subject: Naaraaya.nasuuktam Message-ID: <161227065615.23782.9233970513968367848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was told that nArAyaNa-sUktam describes Shiva as red and Naaraayana as "krishna piGgalam" in its last line. a) Is this correct? b) where does N.suktam belong in the Vedic corpus? Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Dec 19 12:27:24 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 12:27:24 +0000 Subject: Harappan language (latest Frontline URL) In-Reply-To: <3A3BD4D3.89A59D90@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227065617.23782.3488709496907599462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > Does this mean Witzel and Farmer are in the same company with > white supremacists who regularly quote from Western Indologists' > pet theories? Your posting, including the above paragraph, does not explore any topic of classical Indian scholarship, and is of an aggressive and argumentative tone, cast as ironic interrogations. This is a warning. If you post off topic again I shall cancel your subscription. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Dec 19 12:34:42 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 12:34:42 +0000 Subject: Harappan Euhemerus In-Reply-To: <3A3C58C7.3579C5D7@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227065619.23782.13697128766969770907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Euhemerism is also one member of the class of explanations which D. M. MacKay in the 1940s nicknamed "nothing buttery". As in: "X is nothing but Y", where X is any idea, and Y is any other idea, especially a materialist one. I.e., ontological reductionism. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Mon Dec 18 23:35:47 2000 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard B Mahoney) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 12:35:47 +1300 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) In-Reply-To: <"from gm"@ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM> Message-ID: <161227065600.23782.3828987930414491157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Gunthard, I am not usually one to rise to the bait but your words seem to display a certain partiality. I can only imagine that your candour reflects a belief that TeX and LaTeX are not entirely redundant. It is true that -- in common with all methods of electronic typesetting or wordprocessing -- TeX has its disadvantages. Nonetheless, for people such as Indologists, Budhologists, Tibetologists and the like, who often have to typeset heavily footnoted multilingual documents, the use of TeX is not without its benefits. Faced with the demands of one's work, each person has to decide for themselves which is the best approach to take. And of course one always has to keep in mind one's ability to share information with others. Personally, I think it is important for people to have choice. I also find the spectre of everyone using the same approach, or the same software, a little disturbing. I do not believe it is helpful, then, for anyone to attempt to marginalise what is a perfectly legitimate way to get one's work done. If anyone wishes to emplore these issues further then they might wish to follow this link: http://www.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/wp.html Many regards, Richard Mahoney On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 03:15:48PM +0100, Gunthard Mueller wrote: [snip] > Concerning TEX: I generally discourage using TEX altogether. Only TEXies (a > special form of esoteric computer guru scene) favours it, because it has > become part of their lifestyle and provides them with a digital survival > zone within which they are indispensable and therefore cannot be abolished. > There is actually no need to use TEX anymore for anything. I have been > involved with writing TEX converters and creating metafonts when that was > an interesting technology (about 12 years ago), but the world has moved on. > You only find TEX gurus nowadays in artificially preserved biotopes where > they can go on playing with dinosaurs without penalty. The rest of the > world has moved on to SGML tools and Unicode. The best thing you can do to > TEX is to convert it to modern formats and then put it on the shelf for > good. [snip] -- end ====================================================================== Richard Mahoney Telephone: +64-3-351-5831 78 Jeffreys Rd Christchurch NEW ZEALAND mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Dec 19 12:44:01 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 12:44:01 +0000 Subject: SV: Harappan Euhemerus In-Reply-To: <01C0682F.B885C520.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227065620.23782.6884933644380172210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Incidentally, I'm surprised nobody here has raised Thor Heyerdahl's theory that the IVC folk sailed to the Maldives and left inscriptions there. See his _The Maldives Mystery_, which, curiously, is a banned book in the Maldives themselves, although the research was funded by the Maldivian government with the backing of President Gayoom. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Tue Dec 19 18:39:37 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 13:39:37 -0500 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) Message-ID: <161227065640.23782.100252774185883056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/19/00 1:06:25 PM, gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM writes: >Reason for its virtual disappearance: usability. I agree. TeX is completely unsuited for a production environment (ordinary mortals struggling with deadlines). BTW, Apple's upcoming OS X removes the current limit of 256 fonts. -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From ghezziem at TIN.IT Tue Dec 19 13:55:48 2000 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 13:55:48 +0000 Subject: all the best! Message-ID: <161227065622.23782.13814403488297841668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For all the members of Indology my season's greetings Happy new Millennium Sincerely Yours, Daniela Rossella ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 19 14:10:39 2000 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 14:10:39 +0000 Subject: International Conference on the Mahabharata (May 18,19,20,2001) Message-ID: <161227065624.23782.18404681562829636244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members: Please note the revised dates of the Mahabharata conference to be held in Montreal--May 18, 19, 20, 2001. The dates mentioned in the relevant message forwarded by Frank Morales should be ignored. Thanks to Professor Brockington for making the same clarification in an earlier message to this list. S.Tilak _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Tue Dec 19 15:51:12 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 15:51:12 +0000 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065633.23782.9578856274327749600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 19 Dec 2000 06:56:36 -0800, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote: ? > Since joining this list about a month ago, you write against >the western scholarship and christian missionaries working in India. >Scholarship knows no national borders, and this will become >increasingly clear for anyone studying the relevant publications. I have joined the list much more than a month ago. I don't remember to have written against christian missionaries working in India, in this list or anywhere. About western scholarship, I have not written "against" it, but be aware of it's prejudices and priorities. Scholarship not knowing national boundaries is both true and false. Each country's scholarship is determined by it's intellectual traditions and no scholarship escapes the cultural, political and other prejudices of the moment. Even within the same national boundary , the priorities and prejudices change, or can change, drastically over a few decades From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed Dec 20 00:29:32 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 16:29:32 -0800 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065659.23782.1341844622330314603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On recent views in the List on the supposed origins of the double-truth (see, e.g., two earlier posts from Satya Upadhya and Bhadraiah Mallampalli, quoted at the end of this note): Attempts to show that one tradition derived this idea from another are complicated by the fact that some version of the double-truth sooner or later showed up in virtually every sacred or semi-sacred manuscript tradition known. Religious and philosophical exegetes world-wide recognized (in most cases, if not all, independently) that if conflicting concepts showed up in two authoritative texts or traditions, as a last resort the two sides could be reconciled by distinguishing different "levels" of reality and redistributing the conflicting concepts to those respective levels. The method was used extensively from late ancient to early modern times in China, India, the Middle East, and Europe to harmonize a wide spectrum of scholastic conflicts. There really is nothing special about its use in either Buddhist or Advaitan traditions. Repeated use of the method globally was one of the most common forces leading to the kinds of stratifications in reality associated cross-culturally with scholastic traditions. In the Middle East and Europe, the double-truth is most often associated by religious historians with the works ascribed to Ibn Rushd (Averro?s, "The Commentator") or his Latin commentators. See here Bruno Nardi's numerous studies -- e.g., _Sigieri di Brabante nel pensiero del Rinascimento italiano_ (Rome, 1945). See also Etienne Gilson's many discussions of the topic. It is possible to point to use of the technique by hundreds of other later Latin scholastics well up into the 16th century CE (e.g., Pomponazzi). Despite what Nardi and Gilson say, not all of them, by any stretch of the imagination, can be labeled "Averroists." Use of the method was in fact quite widespread in Western scholastic traditions. You can find uses of the double-truth for similar reconciliative purposes in the Three-Treatise (San-lun) School of Chinese Buddhism. Some nice textual examples can be studied easily here in de Bary et al., eds., _A Sources of Chinese Tradition_ (1960: 1:293-303) and Fung Yu-lan, _A History of Chinese Philosophy_ (1953: 2:293ff.) On the double-truth in Vedantic traditions, I personally like Patricia Y. Mumme, "Haunted by Sankara's Ghost: The Srivaisnava interpretation of Bhagavad Gita 18:66," in Jeffrey R. Tim, ed., _Texts in Contexts: Traditional Hermeneutics in South Asia_ (Albany, 1992, pp. 69-84). There are, of course, countless discussions of the so-called double-truth in Sankara, but Mumme's little essay is ground-breaking in recognizing how important the repeated use of exegetical strategies like this were for metaphysical and cosmological developments in Indian thought. Looking at Sankara and the double-truth, Mumme makes the perceptive observation (p. 70) that "From an Indian perspective, an orthodox metaphysical system may be only a by-product of a proper hermeneutical approach to scripture....Western Indologists need to divert some attention from the metaphysical carts in Indian thought in order to give closer scrutiny to the hermeneutical horses that may be driving them." What Mumme says about Indian metaphysics in particular can be claimed about premodern cosmological thinking in general. On this issue in relation especially to the double-truth, see S. Farmer, _Syncretism in the West_ (1998 [1999], pp. 61-63; cf. also the Subject Index there under "double-truth," p. 576. The long-range implications of the repeated use of methods like this in manuscript traditions are discussed on pp. 74 ff. of that book. Conclusion: The so-called double-truth came in countless premodern forms. It is an error to assign credit or blame for the concept to a single tradition. S. Farmer > >From: Satya Upadhya > > >--> Further, both the vijnanavadis and the sunyavadis believe in the so > >called "theory of two truths" which makes a distinction between >the barely > >emperical or practical point of view ("samvriti satya") >and the ultimate > >or metaphysical truth ("parmartha satya"). [With >minor terminological > >modifications, it is submitted that this theory >of "two truths" was > >surreptiously borrowed by the Advaitists--it is >not present in the > >Upanisads.] > > Kindly check.. > > http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/upan/up09c.htm > > 1. FIFTH ADHYAYA-FIRST BRAHMANA which talks about "the invisible Brahman" > and "the visible Brahman" > > 2. FIFTH ADHYAYA-THIRD BRAHMANA which talks about the word "satyA" being > made of three syllables. Two truths "sa" and "ya" and separated by the > untruth "ti". > > Sankara's commentary may explain about the "two truths", but in any case > they must about the visible/invisible brahmans which is the topic of first > brahmana. > > Regards > Bhadraiah From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Dec 19 15:44:40 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 16:44:40 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Harappan Euhemerus Message-ID: <161227065631.23782.16416545352241800137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk [SMTP:ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK] skrev 19. desember 2000 13:44: > Incidentally, I'm surprised nobody here has raised Thor Heyerdahl's theory > that the IVC folk sailed to the Maldives and left inscriptions there. > See his _The Maldives Mystery_, which, curiously, is a banned book in the > Maldives themselves, although the research was funded by the Maldivian > government with the backing of President Gayoom. >?From what I understand, Heyerdahl does not have a high standing in scholarly circles *as a scholar*. This has been the case more or less since he started publishing on scholarly matters. E.g. he has proved that it is possible to sail on balsa rafts to Easter Island, but he has not proved that this was how the Easter Islanders got there in the first place. His diffusionist theories are generally rejected by scholars. But he is greatly respected for his courage and his moral stance. On crossing the Atlantic (the Ra expedition) I believe he discovered important evidence about pollution of sea water. His voyages have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that primitive vessels had a much larger range than previously assumed. Since he is a "Norwegian Hero" and an international figure, I believe he has also been able to open doors for other scholars who may have more solid scholarship but less door-opening capacity. It is therefore a bit sad that he has gotten into the present scrape with the scholarly world, but his latest publications are so dubious that a reaction had to come. He'll probably survive. He is as tough as they come. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From tawady at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 19 17:06:54 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 17:06:54 +0000 Subject: SV: Harappan Euhemerus Message-ID: <161227065634.23782.13056383045438619976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:44:01 +0000, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >Incidentally, I'm surprised nobody here has raised Thor Heyerdahl's theory >that the IVC folk sailed to the Maldives and left inscriptions there. >See his _The Maldives Mystery_, which, curiously, is a banned book in the >Maldives themselves, although the research was funded by the Maldivian >government with the backing of President Gayoom. > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk Unfortunately 'official' Maldivians have a lot of problems with their history. They want to literally bury their past prior to their Islamic conversion and don?t want any facts, which might disturb their mythical history. Clarence Maloney in his well researched article titled ?Where Did the Maldives People Come From?? says ?What was not known previous to my research in the early 1970s, is that there is a strong underlying layer of Tamil population and culture. So far, most Divehis have not shown themselves interested in accepting this finding, as it does not suit their sense of their prestigious origins. Be that as it may, the evidence is overwhelming. There is a clear Tamil substratum in the language, which also appears in place names, kin terms, poetry, dance, and religious beliefs? Regards Raveen From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 19 22:20:05 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 17:20:05 -0500 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065646.23782.13218147618221342334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Satya Upadhya >--> Further, both the vijnanavadis and the sunyavadis believe in the so >called "theory of two truths" which makes a distinction between >the barely >emperical or practical point of view ("samvriti satya") >and the ultimate >or metaphysical truth ("parmartha satya"). [With >minor terminological >modifications, it is submitted that this theory >of "two truths" was >surreptiously borrowed by the Advaitists--it is >not present in the >Upanisads.] Kindly check.. http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/upan/up09c.htm 1. FIFTH ADHYAYA-FIRST BRAHMANA which talks about "the invisible Brahman" and "the visible Brahman" 2. FIFTH ADHYAYA-THIRD BRAHMANA which talks about the word "satyA" being made of three syllables. Two truths "sa" and "ya" and separated by the untruth "ti". Sankara's commentary may explain about the "two truths", but in any case they must about the visible/invisible brahmans which is the topic of first brahmana. Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Dec 19 22:33:35 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 17:33:35 -0500 Subject: Libraries with special collections on yoga and physical culture Message-ID: <161227065648.23782.8979511882501288800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know of any libraries in India or elsewhere which have specialised collections on yoga and/or Indian physical culture such as wrestling and the martial arts? A patron would like to know. Thanks, Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Tue Dec 19 18:01:54 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 19:01:54 +0100 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) Message-ID: <161227065638.23782.4309224020035230508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Richard, my only issue in the last mail was with people who ENFORCE TeX on others. There are such people, believe me. You seem to be somebody who uses TeX successfully. Perfect -- why not use it if it works for you. Nobody would deny that TeX is a powerful programming language. But it is a programming language, something for power users like yourself, not a tool with which ordinary computer mortals can work. That's a fact. I am not inventing that. And it's not anybody marginalising TeX, it's TeX itself leaving the building. Tools have a lifetime, and so have software tools. Factually, TeX is dead outside of two settings: (1) Power users who have an affinity to programming. (2) Some mostly academic computing services. Reason for its virtual disappearance: usability. With TeX, you have to PROGRAM footnotes. But normal users (i.e. non-programmers) with a time schedule for finishing their books don't want to program footnotes. You want to edit them in a user-friendly way, visually, in a standard software package that doesn't force you to become an outsider to the computer world just because you happen to write indological content. If you have already learnt it (like you have, and by the way, my humble self), then why not go on using it. I for one have found myself to be so much more productive with powerful packages such as Adobe FrameMaker/SGML or some other good packages around. These can also be taught to regular users who don't want to program their text, but write it... Their output can easily be made compatible with international document norms, without programming knowledge. Again, if you can achieve that with TeX, why not go on using it. But I am sure you will agree that many of our colleagues find TeX a user-hostile thing, and don't want to become programmers. Anyway, I have no vested interest in fighting TeX, and I was only recommending that TeX should not be artificially kept alive against the interest of normal users for reasons that are not technical. The people who are playing this game will know what I mean... So please don't force me to talk about TeX. I'd rather read some more on things like preserving Indian birch-bark and palm-leaf manuscripts, writing usable metadata for them, digitizing them, publishing them, publishing articles and books about them. The issue we were discussing was making data exchange easy to do and safe for the future. Nobody denies you your constitutional right to choose whatever software tool you wish to create your data with in the first place. What concerned us was how to present the resulting data to colleagues now and in future. Anyway, sorry if I rubbed some TeXies the wrong way. No, I don't think you are perverse. I just think you are way more computer-savvy than virtually all of us, and that's without flattery. Yours, Gunthard Mueller gm at e-ternals.com My problem is not with (1) the power user, nor (2) the computing services that for some internal reason cannot take the next step. My problem is Richard B Mahoney wrote: > Dear Gunthard, > > I am not usually one to rise to the bait but your words seem to > display a certain partiality. I can only imagine that your candour > reflects a belief that TeX and LaTeX are not entirely redundant. > > It is true that -- in common with all methods of electronic > typesetting or wordprocessing -- TeX has its > disadvantages. Nonetheless, for people such as Indologists, > Budhologists, Tibetologists and the like, who often have to typeset > heavily footnoted multilingual documents, the use of TeX is not > without its benefits. > > Faced with the demands of one's work, each person has to decide for > themselves which is the best approach to take. And of course one > always has to keep in mind one's ability to share information with > others. > > Personally, I think it is important for people to have choice. I also > find the spectre of everyone using the same approach, or the same > software, a little disturbing. I do not believe it is helpful, then, > for anyone to attempt to marginalise what is a perfectly legitimate > way to get one's work done. > > If anyone wishes to emplore these issues further then they might wish > to follow this link: > > http://www.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/wp.html > > Many regards, > > Richard Mahoney > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 03:15:48PM +0100, Gunthard Mueller wrote: > > [snip] > > > Concerning TEX: I generally discourage using TEX altogether. Only TEXies (a > > special form of esoteric computer guru scene) favours it, because it has > > become part of their lifestyle and provides them with a digital survival > > zone within which they are indispensable and therefore cannot be abolished. > > There is actually no need to use TEX anymore for anything. I have been > > involved with writing TEX converters and creating metafonts when that was > > an interesting technology (about 12 years ago), but the world has moved on. > > You only find TEX gurus nowadays in artificially preserved biotopes where > > they can go on playing with dinosaurs without penalty. The rest of the > > world has moved on to SGML tools and Unicode. The best thing you can do to > > TEX is to convert it to modern formats and then put it on the shelf for > > good. > > [snip] > > -- > end > ====================================================================== > Richard Mahoney Telephone: +64-3-351-5831 > 78 Jeffreys Rd > Christchurch > NEW ZEALAND mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed Dec 20 04:08:38 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 20:08:38 -0800 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065675.23782.972960937486599696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge writes: > But the Buddhist concept of the two truths, certainly in its earlier > forms, does not concern "reality" but rather modes of perception / > conception and only very tangentially "reality". To me it seems > intrinsically different from the kind of "two truths" models you > allude to. Generally speaking, the Mahayana strategy for dealing with > contradictions is dealt, rather with the terms "neyaartha" > (provisional "truth") and niitaartha (definitive "truth"). Buddhists, > on the whole are more concerned with epistemology tha[n] ontology > although that did not stop some schools from dabbling in ontology and > were severely criticized for such. None of this is relevant to the main point of my post, which was that scholastic bifurcations of concepts -- in this case, pertinent to countless Eurasian variations of the "double-truth" -- were driven by exegetical processes. This was true whether the thousands of commentators from premodern Europe to Japan who applied "double-truth" strategies to harmonize traditions claimed that the dualistic concepts that those methods generated were epistemological or ontological or something in between. The exegetical processes that led to such distinctions were similar cross-culturally in all scholastic traditions. I wrote: > You can find uses of the double-truth for similar reconciliative > purposes in the Three-Treatise (San-lun) School of Chinese > Buddhism.... S. Hodge responded: > FYI: Much of Chinese Buddhist interpretation can be seen as aberrant > from an mainstream Indian Mahayana Buddhist perspective. Although you snipped them out, my original post also pointed to extensive examples from Islamic and European thought, in which Buddhist contact could hardly be a factor. Many other examples could also be given from Daoist or Shinto or Jewish scholastic traditions. The point is that there is no need to point to a privileged tradition (e.g., Buddhism) to explain the "double truth," which existed in countless variant forms in Eurasian manuscript traditions. Nor is there much mystery why such devices were used all over the premodern world as reconciliative devices. The brain has only so many ways to "harmonize" or "reconcile" conflicting concepts; the invention of different conceptual levels (of reality or perception -- your choice) for these conflicts to inhabit was one of the most common of those strategies. We in fact know quite a bit about how conflicting data like this are processed in neocortex -- ending in the generation of "higher" and "lower" concepts related in some analogical fashion. To put this another way -- along the way hijacking a famous phrase from E.R. Dodds: There are only so many methods "to reconcile irreconcilable texts." The repeated use of these methods in harmonizing manuscript traditions had critical religious and philosophical implications. To generalize Patricia Mumme's point about Indian metaphysics (in Timm 1992): In premodern thought, there is a lot to be said about hermeneutical horses preceding metaphysical carts. saf From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 19 20:09:22 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 20:09:22 +0000 Subject: Harappan language (latest Frontline URL) Message-ID: <161227065642.23782.9015890829635783722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >Does this mean Witzel and Farmer are in the same company with >white supremacists who regularly quote from Western Indologists' >pet theories? >I guess Dilip Chakrabarti should now also be worried about >being declared guilty through association or simply overlap of >theoretical belief. In case you missed it, see Witzel's response to Chakrabarti: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0011&L=indology&P=R16850 Rosane Rocher's review of Chakrabarti's book (JAOS): http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0011&L=indology&P=R17067 Best, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 19 21:22:44 2000 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 21:22:44 +0000 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065644.23782.9802139405133103660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >1. The `suunya-vaada of Maadyamika can hardly be characterized as >"idealism" -- the whole point is that they are any kind of "--ism". --> From what i understand, the vijnaanavadis deny the reality of the world but admit the reality of ideas. The sunyavadis, besides denying the reality of the world, also deny the reality of ideas. The common feature in both is to deny the reality of the world, thus. Hence, in his refutation of Budhist idealism, Kumarila Bhatta (circa 7th-8th century) considers it sufficient to show the reality of the world (in his "Sloka Vartika"). >2. The sirtuation with Yogacara (Vij~aana-vaada) is very complex. . Dan Lusthaus has written an interesting paper available >from his website - sorry don't have URL to hand but i's easy to >find -- entitled something like "What Yogacara is not". --> I have taken a look at the Lusthaus article, and i do not agree with his conclusions. I may mention that he appears to be factually wrong in several important instances like when he says that there is no Yogacara text which admits only ideas to be real. This appears to be wrong as such texts do exist, to the best of my knowledge. For example, there is the text "Alambana-pariksa" [meaning 'the critical examination of the material objects alleged to correspond to ideas'] by the great Dignaga in which he wants to prove that the admission of such objects is philosophically untenable. --> Further, both the vijnanavadis and the sunyavadis believe in the so called "theory of two truths" which makes a distinction between the barely emperical or practical point of view ("samvriti satya") and the ultimate or metaphysical truth ("parmartha satya"). [With minor terminological modifications, it is submitted that this theory of "two truths" was surreptiously borrowed by the Advaitists--it is not present in the Upanisads.] >I have not looked into this in detail -- just understanding Yogacara >alone is hard enough. One pointbto note is that one must determine >first whether one thinks that Buddhists use the terms >"sa.mv.rtti-satya" and "paramaartha-satya" ontologically or >epistemologically -- the latter seems to be the preferred >understanding among the classical Buddhist Mahayana scholars. --> Thanks for this hint. From what i know the Mahayana Budhists wish to establish their idealism both epistemologically and ontologically (again, this is contrary to what Lusthaus says in his article). It is >often rumoured that Gaudapada was a crypto-Buddhist --> Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics (vol.8, pg 232-233) contains an interesting description of this controversy. Rgds Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From l_s_k at NETZERO.NET Wed Dec 20 03:38:18 2000 From: l_s_k at NETZERO.NET (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 22:38:18 -0500 Subject: LBTAI Message-ID: <161227065673.23782.17812233142152454848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: navaratna rajaram Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 02:06 AM Subject: Re: My HINDU article on Vedic origins The Hindu, December 19, 2000 http://www.the-hindu.com/2000/12/19/stories/13191351.htm LOOKING BEYOND THE ARYAN INVASION >???From time immemorial India's ties with East and Southeast Asia have been much closer than with Central Asia or Eurasia. Ancient India must be re-examined taking this and other scientific facts into consideration. N.S. Rajaram Background There is now an active debate concerning Vedic Aryans and their relationship to the Harappan Civilization. The debate is focused mainly on the origin of the Aryans- whether they were indigenous to India or if they were invaders from outside who entered India from the northwest in the second millenium before the Common Era. Beginning about the middle of the nineteenth century, or roughly from the time the British established control over all of India, it has been the official position that the Vedas and the ancestor of the Sanskrit language were brought by invaders from Central Asia or Eurasia or even Europe. This is the famous Aryan Invasion Theory that is now at the center of historical debate. More than anything, the Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) shows that each era views history in the light of its own beliefs and experience. As a product of the European colonial period, it is only natural that the AIT should embody certain Eurocentric biases. In addition, the theory was created at a time when Indian archaeology was still in an embryonic stage, and scientific data from fields like biology, ecology and others was virtually non-existent. Scholars had little to go by beyond the new field of Comparative Linguistics made possible by the European discovery of Sanskrit and its close affinities to the languages of Europe. This led them to postulate a common ancestral language (proto-Indo- European) and a common ancestral home they called the Aryan Homeland. It is now called the Indo-European Homeland. These Aryan invaders were said to have entered India and subjugated the natives, imposing their own language and culture upon them. These original inhabitants were said to be Dravidians, who were driven south by the invading Aryans. The Vedic literature, the Rigveda in particular, was interpreted in the light of this theory. Beginning in the early decades of the twentieth century, technical data also became available, especially from archaeological excavations, notably of the Harappan or the Indus Valley Civilization. It was natural that there should have been attempts to fit these new findings to the already existing Aryan Invasion Theory- an attempt that still continues. It was suggested that the Harappan Civilization was 'Dravidian', which was destroyed by the Aryan invaders. This creates a permanent divide between Harappan archaeology and the Vedic literature. But it was not long before scholars began to notice serious difficulties. Without going into technical details, these may be summarized as follows: the Harappans, the creators of one of the greatest material civilizations of antiquity have no literature, while the Vedic Aryans, the creators of the greatest literature of the ancient world have no archaeological existence. This is all the more puzzling when we recognize that the Harappans possessed writing, while the Vedic Aryans were said to be illiterate who depended on memory for preserving their literature. And yet it is the literature of the illiterate Aryans that has survived in abundance while the literate Harappans have vanished without a literary trace. New data, new problems As more technical data became available, scholars began to notice serious contradictions between data and the theory. For example, genetic studies showed that the presence of any genetic input from Eurasia or Europe in the Indian population was negligible to non- existent. Further, this insignificant imprint was the same in North and South India, which flies in the face of the Aryan-Dravidian division. A scientifically more acceptable explanation is that the physical differences among Indians is the result adaptation to the environment by natural selection. This takes tens of thousands of years and not centuries or millennia. All this suggests that the Indian population is very ancient and not the result of any recent migrations or invasions. There is now a new dimension to this scenario. Throughout history, going back untold millennia, India's ties with East Asia and Southeast Asia have been much closer than that with Central Asia or Europe. This was interrupted by three centuries of European colonialism in the region, leading to a Eurocentric version of history being imposed on it. (The Aryan Invasion Theory was a key part of this.) In recent years, scholars have begun to reexamine many assumptions of the colonial period, looking in particular at the physical and biological imprint in the region. This has to begin with the recognition that Indian climate as well as flora and fauna are closely related to those of Southeast Asia. In particular, Indian cattle (Bos Indicus) are domesticated versions related to the wild cattle of Southeast Asia known as the Banteng (Bos Banteng or Bos Javanicus). Similarly, the Indian horse is a special breed, close to an ancient equid known as Equus Sivalensis (the 'Siwalik Horse'). This or its close relative appears to be the horse described in the Rigveda- and not the Central Asian or the Eurasian variety, which is anatomically different. (The Rigveda describes the horse as having thirty-four ribs like the Sivalensis, while Central Asian breeds have thirty-six.) Thus the widely held belief that horses were unknown in India until they were brought from Central Asia has no scientific support. It is a similar story when we examine the human imprint on the region, especially the genetic evidence. As several experts like Manansala and Kennedy recently pointed out, the skeletal record shows that in most ways the Indian population is quite unique. Genetic studies lead to a similar conclusion- that the Indian population is very ancient to which the contribution of Eurasian strains is negligible to non- existent. It is a different story when we compare Indian and Southeast Asian populations. Paul Kekai Manansala points out: "The overall genetic picture indicates a very old biological relationship, probably extending in part at least to the original migration out of Africa." The current understanding is that Africa was the original home of the entire human population now distributed all over the world. The overall genetic picture of Indians is that they are closely related to the Southeast Asians, going back tens of thousands of years. In contrast, their links to Eurasia or Europe find no scientific support. As a result, one thing can safely be asserted: Indians are ancient inhabitants of India and Southeast Asia (or Greater India) and not recent immigrants. Maritime background >???From all this it is safe to conclude that in order to understand the origins of the Vedic civilization, and its history, it is necessary first to drop the west-northwest bias that has dominated discourse for nearly two centuries. One of the keys to this is recognizing the maritime background of Vedic civilization. In this context it is worth recording that the Rigveda is preeminently an Indian document. While there are occasional references to the lands beyond the Indus, these are greatly exceeded by references to oceans and maritime activity. Prayers for the safety of ships and navigators occur in many parts of the Rigveda. This again shows a southern rather than a northwestern orientation. Recognizing this will allow scholars to break free of the shackles of the northwest, particularly the Aryan Invasion Theory, which has been a major obstacle to a rational study of India. The next logical step is to explore links between the Vedic Civilization and movements from the south, and the resulting exchanges of people and ideas between different regions. Ecological changes, notably the ending of the last Ice Age contributed to it in a major way, in the form of two momentous developments. First, rising sea levels led inhabitants of the coastal regions, and possibly also from now submerged regions, to move to the interior and the north seeking safer ground. Next, the melting of ice caps in the north resulted in the release of the rivers of the northern plains-making this formerly arid region fertile and inhabitable. These two epochal events are encapsulated in the two most significant myths of ancient India- the Flood Myth of Manu and the Indra-Vritra Myth. The Rigveda appears to be the product of the mix of two groups of people: tribes and ruling families that inhabited the north and poets and sages from the coastal regions and the south - some possibly from beyond the seas - who brought with them their maritime memories and experiences. This explains why the Rigveda, though composed in the Sarasvati heartland, abounds in oceanic symbolism and maritime activity. But soon the distinction between the northern rulers and the southern sages came to be blurred as the two groups became intermixed. It is therefore no accident that two of the most important seer families of the Rigveda - the Vasishthas (and the brother Agastya) and the Bhrigus - should have strong maritime connections. It is important also to know that the south or the peninsular India and beyond was not unknown to the Vedic people, especially the seer families. But much information about it has been overlooked or misread in attempts to make data fit the northwestern orientation of scholars over the better part of two centuries. Even so-called 'nationalistic' scholars like Tilak and Savarkar have not been able to escape its hold. The main point is that in studying the Vedas, science demands that we pay much greater attention to the south and southeast than has been the case so far. This calls for a fairly radical reorientation. Southern contribution Recognizing the southern contribution to the Vedic civilization clarifies many literary, linguistic and historical issues in the ancient texts. It is inconceivable that these poets and sages, who brought with them the oceanic imagery and the maritime experiences that pervade the Rigveda did not also bring linguistic elements and spiritual ideas that went into the Vedic language and literature. It becomes clear that many ancient peoples and even places have been grossly misidentified in attempts to fit history and geography to the idea of an 'expansion of Aryans' from the northwest to the south and southeast. For example, the Ramayana has been misinterpreted as the expansion of Aryan civilization into the peninsula. In reality, what Rama found in the south, even in Lanka, was a Vedic civilization. The Uttarakanda of the Ramayana is a goldmine of information about the southern, largely maritime people known as the 'Rakshasa'. The river Narmada appears to have served as the boundary between the 'spheres of influence' of the Rakshasas of the south and Ikshvakus and Bharatas of the north, with the Yadus somewhere in between. And the Rakshasa leaders often retreated to Rasatala - the 'nether lands' (or 'Down Under') - when threatened. This Rasatala was probably part of Indonesia or some other region of Monsoon Asia. So, what we have is not any 'expansion of Aryans from the northwest and the north', but a free exchange of people and ideas among different regions- much as it has existed throughout history including today. And this included lands beyond the oceans. It was interrupted, as previously noted, during the period European domination of the region. Naturally enough, they looked at history and culture of the region through Eurocentric glasses. This is the 'history' that is still being followed by most establishment Indologists, especially in the West, though it is giving way under the impact of archaeology and a more rational approach to the study of the primary literature. In summary, bringing this southern reorientation of ancient India appears to resolve many of the puzzles and paradoxes that plague current theories that try to explain the Vedic and Harappan Civilizations in terms of invasions and/or migrations. This is not to suggest that a southern origin for the growth of the Vedic Civilization should replace the current version. All that is being suggested is that it is an important but sadly neglected area that merits serious study. Of one thing we can be certain: trying to explain the origin and growth of the Vedic Civilization in terms of migrations/invasions a few thousand years ago runs into formidable scientific and literary obstacles. We should learn from this experience and first build a scientific foundation that makes use of all data available today. Only then can we hope to recover the history of that hoary age based on the records they left behind. As Albert Einstein said: "A theory must not contradict empirical facts." ____________ About the author: N.S. Rajaram is the author with Natwar Jha of the book The Deciphered Indus Script. They are now working on the two- volume Magnum Opus of Harappan Inscriptions. ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 19 23:11:06 2000 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 00 23:11:06 +0000 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065651.23782.13708707800490521412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Theory of "Two truths" does not, so far as i understand, mean visible and invisible Brahman. It means truth from the provisional practical point of life (what Advaitists call "vyahvarika satya"), and truth at the ultimate metaphysical level ("parmarthika satya"). Thus the food you eat exists at the level of "vyahvarika satya", but at the higher metaphysical level ("parmarthika satya") it is just a phantom conjured up by mortal illusion, according to both the Advaita Vedantists and the Mahayana Budhists. [ Two fundamental of the Advaita are: 1. Brahman is the only reality. 2. Brahman is pure consciousness that is devoid of any attributes.] Futher to this, i may mention just some of the several sources who accuse Advaitists of being disguised Mahayana Budhists: 1. Vijananabhikshu, who coins the phrase "pracchanna baudha" to refer to the Advaitists (in his intro to the Sankhyapravanbhasay from the Padmapurana). 2. Madhva on Brahma Sutra ii.2.29, when he says that the Brahman of the Advaitists is nothing but the "sunya" of the Sunyavadins. [Rememember that according to Advaita, the Ultimate Reality is devoid of any attributes, and this is the position of the sunyavadis too as far as i know.] 3. Parthasarathi Mishra [the famous commentator on Kumarila] in Sastra-dipika, Nir.ed. pg. 111; and Jayanta Bhatta in Nyayamanjari, Ch.ed. ii.96 also (sarcastically) refer to the basic similarity between the Advaita and Mahayana Budhism. 4. From the Advaita point of view, Sriharsa frankly acknowledges his indebtedness to the sunyavadis [Madhyamikas]. Now, what i want to know is whether any work has been done in modern times on the parallels between the Advaita and Mahayana Budhism. Rgds Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Wed Dec 20 05:22:34 2000 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 00:22:34 -0500 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065653.23782.6941279771551045463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satya Upadhya wrote: -->> I have taken a look at the Lusthaus article, and i do not agree with his SU> conclusions. I may mention that he appears to be factually wrong in several SU> important instances like when he says that there is no Yogacara text which SU> admits only ideas to be real. This appears to be wrong as such texts do SU> exist, to the best of my knowledge. For example, there is the text SU> "Alambana-pariksa" [meaning 'the critical examination of the material SU> objects alleged to correspond to ideas'] by the great Dignaga in which he SU> wants to prove that the admission of such objects is philosophically SU> untenable. I shall not comment on Lusthaus' arguments, but at least as far as the AlambanaparIkSA (plus -vRtti) is concerned, it strikes me as incorrect to attribute to it the view "only ideas are real". The underlying question that guides the text is "what can be the object-support of a perceptual awareness?". More precisely put: IF it is granted that an "object-support" (Alambanapratyaya) is something (a) that serves as a cause for perceptual awareness and (b) which shares a correspondence with the image which appears in a perceptual awareness, what type of entity can be said to be an object-support? DignAga examines two [or three, depending on one's reading of the text] "external" candidates for such an "object-support": Single atoms and an accumulation of several atoms. Single atoms are causes for perceptual awarenesss, but there is no image in perceptual awareness that corresponds to them. Conversely, there is an image that corresponds to an accumulation of several atoms, but as an accumulation is not substantially real - and only entities which are substantially real can serve as causes -, it cannot serve as a cause for perceptual awareness. I.e. single atoms fulfil condition (a), but not condition (b), whereas accumulations of atoms fulfil condition (b), but not condition (a). DignAga concludes that the only type of "entity" which fulfills both criteria is the cognized image inside perceptual awareness (antar jJeyarUpaM), which is presented to consciousness as something external (bahirvad avabhAsate). For it is first of all an image within perceptual awareness (vijJAnarUpatvAT), and secondly serves as a cause for perceptual awareness (tatpratyayatayA 'pi ca, AP k.6, Sanskrit terms cited after a fragment from the TattvasaGgrahapaJjikA). DignAga then goes on to present two alternative accounts for the causal process involved, which need not concern us here. At any rate, he does *not* present any ontological arguments concerning the reality of external world which would justify the ascription of the claim "only ideas are real". Rather, he arrives at the conclusion that, *if* it is accepted that an object-support must cause a perception in which a corresponding image appears, then external reality cannot fulfill this particular function - only the internal image in a perceptual awareness can. This may be interpreted as denying the epistemological relevance of external reality, but not - at least not without making additional assumptions - as denying the reality of external entities. Another issue is, of course, whether AP(V) should be classified as a "YogAcAra" text. The answer to this question depends a lot on what sort of statements within a text one would count as unmistakeable evidence for such a classification, and on just how strong one's desire is to have every text fall neatly within one or the other "school" of Buddhist philosophy. As my desire in this respect is practically non-existent, I shall leave further discussion to others :-) [There is a footnote on this issue in Richard Hayes' article "The Question of Doctrinalism in the Buddhist Epistemologists." Journal of the American Academy of Religion 52/4 (1984), 645-670, and further remarks in the footnotes to Masaaki Hattori's "DignAga. On Perception" (Harvard 1968), pp.102ff.] --- Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Wed Dec 20 00:22:07 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 01:22:07 +0100 Subject: Indo-Aryan words in Hurrian Message-ID: <161227065657.23782.14526404489568001208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, After Christmas, I will report more about the Hittite hippological texts with Hurrianized Indo-Aryan words. I have reserved some days to study Frank Starke's AUSBILDUNG UND TRAINING VON STREITWAGENPFERDEN. EINE HIPPOLOGISCH ORIENTIERTE INTERPRETATION DES KIKKULI-TEXTES (= StBoT 41), Wiesbaden 1995, which, apart from Onofrio Carruba's short article mentioned earlier on this list, is the most recent approach to these very difficult texts. Both authors underscore the fact that hippology or horse training was not introduced to the Near East by Indo-Aryans. Starke even goes so far as to state (p. 115) that "von den vermeintlichen Errungenschaften [Indo-Aryan achievements] faktisch so gut wie nichts [virtually almost nothing] feststellbar ist; denn die hier vorkommenden indoar. hippologischen Fachbegriffe - tatsaechlich handelt es sich nur um zwei: wartanna- "Wendung" und wasanna- "(vorgeschriebene) Fahrspur"; es sind zugleich die einzigen uberhaupt! - erlauben nur einen sehr bescheidenen Einblick in das hippologische Wissen der Indoarier... Aber auch der Kikkuli-Text selbst laesst die marginale Rolle des indoar. Einflusses dadurch sichtbar werden, dass er fuer hippologisch relevante Begriffe wie den "erregten Trab" und den "fliegenden Galoppwechsel" eben keine indoar. Ausdruecke benutzt." In a footnote, Starke correctly notes that the colour expressions from Nuzi (pabrunni, pingaranni etc.) are not "hippologische Fachbegriffe". Mayrhofer is quoted in a footnote on p. 114 as having said that Indo-Aryans became the hippological teachers (Lehrmeister) of the Hurrians, which Starke strongly denies (p. 115): "So erscheint es voellig unangemessen, den Indoariern in der hippischen Kunst groessere Leistungen zuzusprechen oder sie gar auf diesen Gebiet als Lehrmeister des Alten Orients hinzustellen." This "marginal role of the Indo-Aryan influence" in the Kikkuli texts corresponds to what we see elsewhere in Hurrian literature, art and religion. Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Dec 20 01:23:46 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 01:23:46 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065665.23782.5724956432282609235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: > Religious and > philosophical exegetes world-wide recognized (in most cases, if > not all, independently) that if conflicting concepts showed up in > two authoritative texts or traditions, as a last resort the two > sides could be reconciled by distinguishing different "levels" of > reality and redistributing the conflicting concepts to those > respective levels. But the Buddhist concept of the two truths, certainly in its earlier forms, does not concern "reality" but rather modes of perception / conception and only very tangentially "reality". To me it seems intrinsically different from the kind of "two truths" models you allude to. Generally speaking, the Mahayana strategy for dealing with contradictions is dealt, rather with the terms "neyaartha" (provisional "truth") and niitaartha (definitive "truth"). Buddhists, on the whole are more concerned with epistemology that ontology although that did not stop some schools from dabbling in ontology and were severely criticized for such. I don't know too much about Vedaanta, but if it ontologizes the "two truths" then it is talking about something different to most early and Mahayana Buddhists. David Eckel's "J~naanagarbha's Commnetary on the Distinction between the Two Truths (SUNY 1987) is a useful study of a late Mahayana understanding of the two truths. > You can find uses of the double-truth for similar reconciliative > purposes in the Three-Treatise (San-lun) School of Chinese > Buddhism FYI: Much of Chinese Buddhist interpretation can be seen as aberrant from an mainstream Indian Mahayana Buddhist perspective. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 20 00:26:30 2000 From: kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 01:26:30 +0100 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) In-Reply-To: <200012182359.eBINxmM04070@orion.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227065655.23782.3392075091393986347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello List, Thanks for some advice to my previous post on and off the list, I could solve some problems. In order to view and print pdf files produced through dvi -> ps -> pdf properly, I needed acrobat reader 4.0. Apparently, the rendering of bitmap fonts in the newer reader is much better. It renders bitmap fonts in the document properly with anti-aliasing. However, I suspect that it still has a limitation of originally intended printer resolution in the dvi file. If one happens to have a 2000dpi printer and the document was originally created with 600dpi bitmaps, the quality of the output won't be as nice as using outline fonts, I suppose. In addition, the searching the pdf file produced through TeX/LaTeX still does not work. If my points were not clear in my broken English, they were that: 1) I agree that pdf is so far the best solution to distribute a document electronically. 2) but the pdf files, produced from a document that are originally written in TeX/LaTeX, are not the same as the pdf files produced from Adobe's solution. 3) and TeX/LaTeX happen to be rather popular among indologists. It was not difficult for me to find and install the newer versions of softwares---in this case, Acrobat Reader 4.0.5 and Ghostscript 6.0.1. (Thanks again, for advice.) But there are tons of people who are using antiquated software and have trouble finding and installing newer versions. [I am also sick and tired of following the most recent development.] The speed of advancement in the area of computer/digital/IT industry is astonishing, but it seems to me that the area is not still mature, hence rapid change. Things will change in the near future, and it is highly likely that there will be a better solution to publish indological publications. I thought CD-ROM was cool 8 or 9 years ago. But it is already losing the luster behind DVD-ROM/RAM or the web. Publishing on the web or CD-ROM may be fashionable these days, but I think anything fashionable will be out of fashion soon or later. - Regarding the storage device, I thought we were discussing about the medium to distribute a document. I have no doubt that the original data of a publication published electronically will be stored in one shape or another electronically. But if the publication was published in the shape of physical media, such as CD-ROM, I'd still think that the readability on the desktop will significantly reduce in 10 or so years. DVD-ROM/RAM drives may still support the CD-ROM, but what about the next generation? 33 rpm vinyl record format is a norm but very few people these days have record players. Gunthard Mueller wrote: > Further, MacOS HFS has ALREADY been superseded by TWO other MacOS > file systems, and the issue has nothing to do with the ISO-9660 > issue. MacOS HFS could easily be superseded because it is not an ISO > norm and not accepted by other platforms. So superseding it was an > Apple-internal decision and therefore bound to happen for ephemeral > reasons. Things are different when norming has taken place. > ISO-9660 is itself a file system and has nothing to do with a single > company or lobby. Is is the normed file system for CD-ROMs. As such > it will be readable in future. Although I have to admit that I am shaky on this ground, I am aware that Apple now has two newer file systems. (That's why I mentioned the possibility of future non-support of HFS.) But my understanding of the ISO9660 and HFS was that HFS is _on_ ISO9660 on CD-ROM for MacOS. My point was that there would be a danger of a cd-rom unable to be read properly on future systems, if it employed a OS specific file system on a CD-ROM, which is in ISO9660 format to be a cd-rom. For example, a mac cd-rom is mounted on my linux system as iso9660 file system. But the cd-rom looks like regular HFS volume from MacOS. Don't many cd-roms have both msdos and HFS volumes over ISO9660 (hybrid cd-rom)? If a book is published in such a hybrid format, when Apple disappears or Apple decides to abandon supporting ancient HFS format, the purchasers of the cd-rom may not be able to read the contents in the future. [Perhaps this does not happen. An CD-ROM witl an HFS volume will be mounted in the same manner the MacOS mounts UNIX cd-roms as ISO9660.] [So, if some one goes for electronic publication, better solution for electronic publications may be, cough, web-based, like UMI. User/reader/purchaser do not have to worry about longevity of the media [s]he purchased.] - Regarding TeX/LaTeX and SGML/XML, unicode, etc. TeX/LaTeX happens to be the easiest and cheapest solution for many indologists. (And probably most aesthetically pleasing output for most people, IMHO.) It happens that XML applications for this field of study is not very accessible for most people yet, and XML and unicode appear to be still moving targets for me. TeX/LaTeX may be dead already, and may belong to gurus, but indologists are known to like dead languages :-) And many indologists would like to be a guru, too :-) So, we still have a time-honored means to publish, i.e., on the paper, which happens to be readable by most people. Perhaps it will be readable in near future, too. I know some people who still print out their e-mails. Although I think this practice and publication of newspapers on the paper is a total waste of resources, there still are people who like reading them in the bathroom or on the train. Similarly, although I would not mind publishing electronically and reading on screen, removing the option of publishing on the paper does not seem a good idea yet. -- kengo From kupferka at UNI-FREIBURG.DE Wed Dec 20 00:42:24 2000 From: kupferka at UNI-FREIBURG.DE (Katharina Kupfer) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 01:42:24 +0100 Subject: Indo-Aryan words in Hurrian Message-ID: <161227065661.23782.6452343784512496038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Maybe I should remind of the articles of Gernot Wilhelm on Hurrian. He published several papers including a excellent monography on the Hurrians (Hurriter. 19?? Darmstadt: wb.) Regards, Katharina Kupfer -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Katharina Kupfer kupferka at uni-freiburg.de Sprachwissenschaftliches Seminar k.kupfer at em.uni-frankfurt.de Albert-Ludwigs-Universitaet Freiburg Werthmannpl. 3 Phone: +49/761/203-3167 D-79085 Freiburg Fax: +49/761/203-3203 http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/kupfer.htm http://www.uni-freiburg.de/indogerm/kupfer.htm * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Dec 20 01:49:55 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 01:49:55 +0000 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065667.23782.8812674405966488294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satya Upadhya wrote: > Thus the food you eat exists at > the level of "vyahvarika satya", but at the higher metaphysical level > ("parmarthika satya") it is just a phantom conjured up by mortal illusion, > according to both the Advaita Vedantists and the Mahayana Budhists. This is not the Yogaacara view in my understanding. Note that the Buddhists often use the phrase "maayopama" and not just "maayaa" -- an important distinction. > From what i understand, the vijnaanavadis deny the reality of the world > but admit the reality of ideas. The sunyavadis, besides denying the reality > of the world, also deny the reality of ideas. Your classification of Buddhist schools is confused. Yogaacaras (your "vij~aanavaadis") were just as staunch proponents of "`suunyavaada" as any other Mahayanist. I suppose by the latter term you actually mean Maadhyamika. Anyway, to say that Yogaacarins deny the reality of the world but admit the reality of ideas is to totally misread their position. They deny the existence per se of the objective pole of perception but, importantly, equally deny the existence per se of ideas/mind. I suggest you read the latter part of Vasubandhu's Tri.m`sika carefully and you'll see what I mean. > For example, there is the text > "Alambana-pariksa" [meaning 'the critical examination of the material > objects alleged to correspond to ideas'] by the great Dignaga in which he > wants to prove that the admission of such objects is philosophically > untenable. I agree with Birgit Kellner's response to this. Part of the problem revolves around how one defines and understands "aalambana". > the ultimate or metaphysical truth ("parmartha satya"). Ultimate maybe but not metaphysical in Buddhism. > Thanks for this hint. From what i know the Mahayana Budhists wish to > establish their idealism both epistemologically and ontologically (again, > this is contrary to what Lusthaus says in his article). This is a very sweeping statement. I have read most of the Yogacaara texts and do not find much evidence of ontology there. Perhaps you are basing your opinions on the La`nkaavataara-suutra which is popularly thought to be a Yogacaara text. It is not -- it is a syncretic text that borrows Yogaacara ideas. It is *never* quoted as a proof-text by any of the classical Yogaacara authors. I suspect that part of the problem for you is that Yogaacara had a long history in India and evolved over the centuries -- one could divide it up into early (classical) Yogaacara, represented by Maitreya, Asa`nga and Vasubandhu, a middle period and a late syncretic period. Many claims about Yogaacara seem to me to derive from late materials -- especially the LAS. It is regreatable that many key tests by the early Yogaacarins have not been translated into English (some in French and German though) and only some are even available in Sanskrit. The kind of influences you are speaking of would probably derive from the late syncretic form of Yogaacara which may lend itself to an idealistic interpretation but even this is debatable. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 20 02:01:19 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 02:01:19 +0000 Subject: Naaraaya.nasuuktam Message-ID: <161227065669.23782.15377870382801309677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I was told that nArAyaNa-sUktam describes Shiva as red >and Naaraayana as "krishna piGgalam" in its last line. > >a) Is this correct? No. There are two references to ziva in this sUkta. In the first, nArAyaNa is described as Izvara, zAzvata, ziva, acyuta, mahAjneya and vizvAtmA. In the second, the paramAtmA is equated with brahmA, ziva, hari, indra and akshara. Neither verse associates a red color with ziva. Perhaps the above interpretation comes from virUpAksha. It is a stretch to read the color red into this word, but there are those who think that Urdhvaretas implies red (bloodshot) eyes, and hence virUpAksha. As for the color of nArAyaNa himself in the sUkta, it is like a yellow (pItA) flash of lightning (vidyullekhA) in the midst of a dark blue cloud (nIla-toyada). kRshNa- pingala comes after this reference. The text is online, at http://sanskrit.gde.to/doc_vishhnu/doc_vishhnu.html. >b) where does N.suktam belong >in the Vedic corpus? taittirIya AraNyaka. rAmAnuja gives almost a central place to this hymn, which he calls nArAyaNa-anuvAka. While on the subject of Vishnu, there was a question about suffix -sAyi in anantasAyi, rangasAyi etc. Well, the words are anantazAyI, rangazAyI, zeshazAyI. The suffix is derived from root zI (to sleep). Verbal root si (to bind) and the possible sI (to draw a line) are not meant here, and would anyway conjugate differently. Voiced and voiceless sibilants are not interchangeable. Vidyasankar From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Wed Dec 20 01:33:04 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 02:33:04 +0100 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) Message-ID: <161227065663.23782.2965582967261141541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Kengo, I like your way of looking at things... Just some little tech notes again if you don't mind. UNIX normally uses ISO-9660 as CD-ROM format. Without any additions such as Joliet, Romeo, etc. If you insert a non-ISO-9660 CD-ROM into a UNIX machine running, say, Solaris or Linux, then it will try to mount it as ISO-9660, and the result will be various shades of funny. For example, if you insert a "Windows CD-ROM" (that normally means ISO-9660 with Microsoft's partly undocumented (!) Joliet extension for long paths) into a Solaris or Linux machine, it will present the files to you with ISO-9660 indexing (which it takes from the 8.3 short-file-name list that Joliet provides as a fallback). Something similar happens when you insert a Macintosh-format CD (and some Solaris machines won't unmount these any more...). That's just courtesy of the designers of these non-ISO-9660 formats which tried to give you a smooth escape route in non-native environments. One thing about "hybrid CDs" (Mac+Windows, for example): dangerous! Good for general publishing sometimes, but no good for archiving, because not normed, with several variants around, and never completely supported by all hardware and driver makers. In addition, reproducing hybrid CDs is quite complicated and requires special, very uncommon software. Of course you are absolutely right -- the CD-ROM will not be supported eternally by the hardware folks making consumer electronics. That's why I think one important task of digital libraries will be to retain the migration CAPABILITY for the public. Some people think it will be necessary to migrate ALL data carriers from the respective old-norm media to the respective new-norm media whenever a norm reaches the end of its lifespan in general electronics. I am not sure if that is realistic. I may underestimate future digital capabilities, but I think the infrastructure is not going to be there for that for a long time. What I personally envisage as feasible would be this kind of scenario. Imagine a normed data carrier type x (currently the CD-ROM) going completely out of popular use in y years. The academic public now finds itself unable to use type x any longer. But most digital archive holdings are on type x media. In this situation I think digital archives should be able not to migrate their entire holdings from type x to the next normed data carrier (let's call it type z) in one go, but to "migrate on demand", i.e. on request, when a particular set of data is requested by a user. This capability would be fairly easy to maintain with relatively little equipment over many generations. The digital library should be able to monitor the process and to ensure that data that are rarely requested do not fall out of the migration framework eventually. In other words: if there are data that are never migrated because nobody ever requests them, then the digital librarian should step in and migrate them. Quality management routines for such a process look feasible to me even for relatively low-budget libraries. The job could be centralised or partly centralised. Personally I think that if current developments continue, the future might see normed data carriers that will be so long-lasting and so huge that it will be feasible to migrate larger and larger proportions of entire digital libraries onto fewer and fewer media. When one looks back a little over the last century, it's other things that worry me. In the past century, Germany alone has lost roughly 30% of its library holdings to "external factors" (wars...). Would the bits and bytes have escaped the bombs better? Nothing destroys the human heritage better than man... Unfortunately, destroying digital media seems a lot easier than destroying parchment and paper. It seems to me that digitization should go hand in hand with "pre-emptive publishing". Proliferation is also a form of conservation. Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com Kengo Harimoto wrote: > Hello List, > > Thanks for some advice to my previous post on and off the list, I > could solve some problems. > > In order to view and print pdf files produced through dvi -> ps -> pdf > properly, I needed acrobat reader 4.0. Apparently, the rendering of > bitmap fonts in the newer reader is much better. It renders bitmap > fonts in the document properly with anti-aliasing. > > However, I suspect that it still has a limitation of originally > intended printer resolution in the dvi file. If one happens to have a > 2000dpi printer and the document was originally created with 600dpi > bitmaps, the quality of the output won't be as nice as using outline > fonts, I suppose. > > In addition, the searching the pdf file produced through TeX/LaTeX > still does not work. > > If my points were not clear in my broken English, they were that: > > 1) I agree that pdf is so far the best solution to distribute a > document electronically. > > 2) but the pdf files, produced from a document that are originally > written in TeX/LaTeX, are not the same as the pdf files produced from > Adobe's solution. > > 3) and TeX/LaTeX happen to be rather popular among indologists. > > It was not difficult for me to find and install the newer versions of > softwares---in this case, Acrobat Reader 4.0.5 and Ghostscript 6.0.1. > (Thanks again, for advice.) But there are tons of people who are > using antiquated software and have trouble finding and installing > newer versions. [I am also sick and tired of following the most > recent development.] The speed of advancement in the area of > computer/digital/IT industry is astonishing, but it seems to me that > the area is not still mature, hence rapid change. Things will change > in the near future, and it is highly likely that there will be a > better solution to publish indological publications. I thought CD-ROM > was cool 8 or 9 years ago. But it is already losing the luster behind > DVD-ROM/RAM or the web. Publishing on the web or CD-ROM may be > fashionable these days, but I think anything fashionable will be out > of fashion soon or later. > > - Regarding the storage device, I thought we were discussing about the > medium to distribute a document. I have no doubt that the original > data of a publication published electronically will be stored in one > shape or another electronically. But if the publication was published > in the shape of physical media, such as CD-ROM, I'd still think that > the readability on the desktop will significantly reduce in 10 or so > years. DVD-ROM/RAM drives may still support the CD-ROM, but what > about the next generation? 33 rpm vinyl record format is a norm but > very few people these days have record players. > > Gunthard Mueller wrote: > > > Further, MacOS HFS has ALREADY been superseded by TWO other MacOS > > file systems, and the issue has nothing to do with the ISO-9660 > > issue. MacOS HFS could easily be superseded because it is not an ISO > > norm and not accepted by other platforms. So superseding it was an > > Apple-internal decision and therefore bound to happen for ephemeral > > reasons. Things are different when norming has taken place. > > ISO-9660 is itself a file system and has nothing to do with a single > > company or lobby. Is is the normed file system for CD-ROMs. As such > > it will be readable in future. > > Although I have to admit that I am shaky on this ground, I am aware > that Apple now has two newer file systems. (That's why I mentioned > the possibility of future non-support of HFS.) But my understanding > of the ISO9660 and HFS was that HFS is _on_ ISO9660 on CD-ROM for > MacOS. My point was that there would be a danger of a cd-rom unable > to be read properly on future systems, if it employed a OS specific > file system on a CD-ROM, which is in ISO9660 format to be a cd-rom. > For example, a mac cd-rom is mounted on my linux system as iso9660 > file system. But the cd-rom looks like regular HFS volume from MacOS. > Don't many cd-roms have both msdos and HFS volumes over ISO9660 > (hybrid cd-rom)? If a book is published in such a hybrid format, when > Apple disappears or Apple decides to abandon supporting ancient HFS > format, the purchasers of the cd-rom may not be able to read the > contents in the future. [Perhaps this does not happen. An CD-ROM > witl an HFS volume will be mounted in the same manner the MacOS mounts > UNIX cd-roms as ISO9660.] > > [So, if some one goes for electronic publication, better solution for > electronic publications may be, cough, web-based, like UMI. > User/reader/purchaser do not have to worry about longevity of the > media [s]he purchased.] > > - Regarding TeX/LaTeX and SGML/XML, unicode, etc. TeX/LaTeX happens > to be the easiest and cheapest solution for many indologists. (And > probably most aesthetically pleasing output for most people, IMHO.) > It happens that XML applications for this field of study is not very > accessible for most people yet, and XML and unicode appear to be still > moving targets for me. TeX/LaTeX may be dead already, and may belong > to gurus, but indologists are known to like dead languages :-) And > many indologists would like to be a guru, too :-) > > So, we still have a time-honored means to publish, i.e., on the paper, > which happens to be readable by most people. Perhaps it will be > readable in near future, too. I know some people who still print out > their e-mails. Although I think this practice and publication of > newspapers on the paper is a total waste of resources, there still are > people who like reading them in the bathroom or on the train. > Similarly, although I would not mind publishing electronically and > reading on screen, removing the option of publishing on the paper does > not seem a good idea yet. > > -- > kengo From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 20 03:18:37 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 03:18:37 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065671.23782.5972748329590318049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: >contradictions is dealt, rather with the terms "neyaartha" >(provisional "truth") and niitaartha (definitive "truth"). Buddhists, >on the whole are more concerned with epistemology that ontology >although that did not stop some schools from dabbling in ontology and >were severely criticized for such. I don't know too much about >Vedaanta, but if it ontologizes the "two truths" then it is talking >about something different to most early and Mahayana Buddhists. Ah, there lies the crux of the issue. Almost everybody who talks of Gaudapada and Sankara as crypto-Buddhists, and of Vedanta "stealing" the notion of two truths from Buddhism ignores this. First, they think zUnyatA is an "Absolute", and equate it with the upanishadic brahman. Thus, they completely misunderstand Nagarjuna. Next, they criticize Sankara, whose criticism of "zUnyavAda" is precisely that it does not accept an ontological absolute behind phenomena. Thus, they completely misunderstand Sankara too. Having committed themselves to this double-error, they now say the Vedantin misrepresents the Buddhist, and see his criticism as nothing more than an attempt to hide his supposed "surreptitious borrowing" of the two truths from Buddhism. Ultimately, in Vedanta, to know is to be/become. At some stage, epistemology and ontology have to collapse together. The Vedanta schools differ on whether it is being or becoming that is ontologically sound. The Advaitin accepts "realist" epistemology and "idealist" ontology. (The quotation marks are important; I use these terms with reservations.) For the Advaitin, the non-dual Brahman is an ontological absolute reality, and is itself the paramArtha satya. Important to note, however, is that he does not ontologize Brahman via "reason", but receives it from "revelation", i.e. the upanishads. He cannot and does not rely solely on "revelation" as an argument against the Buddhist, but according to his lights, the Madhyamaka's refusal to accept an ontological absolute leads to nihilism. Now, according to Buddhist principles, it does not, but that is where the mutual debate turns. The Vedantin cannot agree with paratantra svabhAva, or pratItya samutpAda, or with the Madhyamaka's ultimate equation of saMsAra and nirvANa, and presents numerous reasons why he rejects these Buddhist concepts. However, those who say X borrowed from Y, and make this as an accusation/judgement, completely miss the point of the above old debate, and misunderstand both X and Y. In my opinion, this arises from viewing Indian systems of thought primarily through Kantian and/or Hegelian prisms, a dominant feature of the 19th and much of the 20th cent. It is only in recent times that Western scholars have begun to treat Buddhism and its philosphical schools on their own terms. I hope Hinduism and its schools receive the same respect eventually. Non-Indians have to do it first, before Indians interested in Indian philosophies will accept it. Except for the traditional Pundits, a highly reviled class nowadays, most Indians interested in these issues do not know enough Sanskrit to read the primary texts and make their own conclusions. They rely predominantly on the secondary literature, of which more quality work is produced from Europe, USA and Japan, than from India. My take on these issues is easy to dismiss - the reaction is that I am "only interested in defending Sankara". I hope there is some scholar out there, who is ready to write on "What is and isn't Advaita Vedanta"! Vidyasankar From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 20 13:18:13 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 05:18:13 -0800 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065694.23782.18195747336387348264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> such is the levity of sensitive intellect poised at the crossroads of sublime paradox vt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From sezhumai at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 20 13:55:31 2000 From: sezhumai at YAHOO.COM (jothi mani) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 05:55:31 -0800 Subject: On Rajaram's article Message-ID: <161227065702.23782.9313704480041423692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N.S. Rajaram in his article titled, ?Looking Beyond the Aryan Invasion? writes, ?..while the Vedic Aryans, the creators of the greatest literature of the ancient world, have no archaeological existence. This is all the more puzzling when we recognize that the Harappans possessed writing, while the Vedic Aryans were said to be illiterate who depended on memory for preserving their literature. And yet it is the literature of the illiterate Aryans that has survived in abundance while the literate Harappans have vanished without a literary trace. First the RgVeda was written rather late and lacks bibliographical evidence for authenticity as ancient literature. However, the history of Indian literature reveals many Ancient Indian literature viz., Jain, Buddhist literature and the glorious Sangam literature, which have nothing to do with the Aryans or their worship. Further, if we take the Six ? fold religions, the Saivite and Vaishnavite literature play a major role in Indian literature. Rajaram further writes, For example, the Ramayana has been misinterpreted as the expansion of Aryan Civilisation into the peninsula. In reality, what Rama found in the south, even in Lanka, was a Vedic Civilisation. The Uttarakanda of the Ramayana is a goldmine of information about the southern, largely maritime people known as the `Rakshasa'. In the Vedas which is the basis for Vedic civilization, can one find any reference to Rama? The concept of avatar plays a significant role in Vaishnavism, and this concept is absent in the Vedas. Hence Rajaram?s article has to be re-analyzed. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 20 14:24:07 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 06:24:07 -0800 Subject: LBTAI Message-ID: <161227065704.23782.18366750653506397064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "L. Suresh Kumar-LSK" wrote: > > The Hindu, December 19, 2000 > > http://www.the-hindu.com/2000/12/19/stories/13191351.htm > Suresh, Thanks for the cuTTi(URL), and that is sufficient. Is Rajaram also opting for Munda solution nowadays? Best wishes, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ Wed Dec 20 08:35:06 2000 From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 08:35:06 +0000 Subject: Libraries with special collections on yoga and physical culture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065680.23782.2150749047229279157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Does anyone know of any libraries in India or elsewhere which have > specialised collections on yoga and/or Indian physical culture such as > wrestling and the martial arts? A patron would like to know. Specialised collection on (hatha)yoga has the library of Kaivalyadhama Yoga Research Institute, Lonavla (kdham.com). Its collection is definitely not excellent but one of the best in India. -- Lubomir Ondracka ============================================= Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies Charles University Namesti Jana Palacha 2 116 38 Prague 1 Czech Republic --------------------------------------------- e-mail: ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz --------------------------------------------- phone: 00420-2-21619356 ============================================= From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Wed Dec 20 09:32:27 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 09:32:27 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" In-Reply-To: <3A3FFD66.9383FEF@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227065682.23782.12596562332943243681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer writes: >Attempts to show that one tradition derived this idea from >another are complicated by the fact that some version of the >double-truth sooner or later showed up in virtually every sacred >or semi-sacred manuscript tradition known. Religious and >philosophical exegetes world-wide recognized (in most cases, if >not all, independently) that if conflicting concepts showed up in >two authoritative texts or traditions, as a last resort the two >sides could be reconciled by distinguishing different "levels" of >reality and redistributing the conflicting concepts to those >respective levels. I think we have to distinguish the general case from the specific. We have a particular distinction of two truths, often using the same or similar terminology, which is widely used in several quasi-absolutist traditions by the latter part of the first century A.D. i.e. Mahaayaana, Gau.dapaada and among Jains by Kundakunda. These are clearly related by their terminology and methodology. Only in the Buddhist case do we have a clear earlier history. In fact the distinction between the two truths derives from abhidharma. Indeed the Sanskritization as sa.mv.rti has long been known to be erroneous. It is clear that a distinction of two truths is integral to the abhidhamma from a very early date and has strong roots in suttanta material. >The method was used extensively from late ancient to early modern >times in China, India, the Middle East, and Europe to harmonize a >wide spectrum of scholastic conflicts. There really is nothing >special about its use in either Buddhist or Advaitan traditions. >Repeated use of the method globally was one of the most common >forces leading to the kinds of stratifications in reality >associated cross-culturally with scholastic traditions. > >In the Middle East and Europe, the double-truth is most often >associated by religious historians with the works ascribed to Ibn >Rushd (Averro?s, "The Commentator") or his Latin commentators. >See here Bruno Nardi's numerous studies -- e.g., _Sigieri di >Brabante nel pensiero del Rinascimento italiano_ (Rome, 1945). >See also Etienne Gilson's many discussions of the topic. It is >possible to point to use of the technique by hundreds of other >later Latin scholastics well up into the 16th century CE (e.g., >Pomponazzi). Despite what Nardi and Gilson say, not all of them, >by any stretch of the imagination, can be labeled "Averroists." >Use of the method was in fact quite widespread in Western >scholastic traditions. I do not think your examples are early enough to be of any use. We cannot rule out Indic influence on the Arab world. You would need examples from Classical antiquity. >You can find uses of the double-truth for similar reconciliative >purposes in the Three-Treatise (San-lun) School of Chinese >Buddhism. Some nice textual examples can be studied easily here >in de Bary et al., eds., _A Sources of Chinese Tradition_ (1960: >1:293-303) and Fung Yu-lan, _A History of Chinese Philosophy_ >(1953: 2:293ff.) This is precisely a form of Mahaayaana Buddhism and so hardly supports the independent development of the idea. >Conclusion: The so-called double-truth came in countless >premodern forms. It is an error to assign credit or blame for the >concept to a single tradition. This is what you have to prove. I am reasonably confident that the idea is not an independent development in the various Indian traditions. Beyond that it seems to me that it is premature to assume that because the idea is very widespread at a later date, it could not have had a single origin from which it spread. (But it needs more careful examination to see if the idea is really the same in detail.) L.S. Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 20 18:27:05 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 10:27:05 -0800 Subject: Re. Chain letters in pre-modern India Message-ID: <161227065714.23782.3670495905523057187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> This frequently occurs in devotional Mahayana sutras; i.e., claims of inestimable merits resulting from expounding respective texts. Even the Diamond Sutra (vajracchedika-prajna-paramita) affirms that ?those who are able to receive, hold in mind, read, recite and expound it widely to others will achieve inexpressible and inconceivable merits without measure or limit.? This has long been an impetus for vigorous re-print and free-distribution activities particularly among the Chinese, from ancient times to today. Spread the word. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Dec 20 16:21:05 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 11:21:05 -0500 Subject: Chain letters in pre-modern India Message-ID: <161227065710.23782.11106544957248819343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At least it doesn't threaten anything bad if you _don't_ make copies and distribute them. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Dec 20 11:26:29 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 11:26:29 +0000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227065685.23782.4737564933960825019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Volumes 2a and 2b of Jan Meulenbeld's monumental _A History of Indian Medical Literature_ have recently been published. This brings the total to four volumes. An index volume will complete the set. Publication details can be found at the publisher's website, http://www.forsten.nl/. G. Jan Meulenbeld, _A History of Indian Medical Literature_. ISBN 90 6980 124 8 Vol. Ia, text & Vol. Ib, annotations. 1999. XVII, 699 p. & VI, 774 p. Cloth fl. 500.- Vol. IIa, text & Vol. IIb, annotations. 2000. VIII, 839 p. & VIII, 1018 p. Cloth c. fl. 575.- Vol. III. Indexes. (in preparation) As with vol.1, the "a" volume is text and the "b" volume consists of notes to the "a" volume. Vol 2b also includes a colossal bibliography, spanning pages 783-1018. Vol I covered the b.rhattrayii of Caraka, Susruta and Vagbhata. Vol II is in some ways of wider interest to general indologists, since it covers hundreds of works and authors. Many of these are relevant to other sastras as well as to medicine. Contents: Part 6 Some important authors and works 1 Bower manuscript 2 Bhelasamhita 3 Kasyapasamhita 4 Haritasamhita 5 Madhava 6 Vrnda 7 Cakrapanidatta Part 7 Authors and works from AD 600-1500 1 Authors and works from the period AD 600-1000 2 Authors and works from the period AD 1000-1500 Part 8 Authors and works from the 16th to the 20th centuries 1 Sixteenth-century authors and works 2 Seventeenth-century authors and works 3 Eighteenth-century authors and works 4 Nineteenth-century authors and works 5 Twentieth-century authors and works Part 9 Miscellanea 1 Works on pakasastra 2 Works on nadisastra 3 Various authors 4 Various anonymous works 5 Authors and works from Sri Lanka 6 Authors and works on veterinary medicine Part 10 Works on rasasastra and ratnasastra 1 Anandakanda 2 Ayurvedaprakasa 3 Goraksasamhita 4 Kakacandesvarimatatantra to Rasahrdayatantra 5 Rasajalanidhi 6 Rasakamadhenu to Rasamrta 7 Rasapaddhati to Rasaratnadipika 8 Rasaratnakara 9 Rasaratnasamuccaya 10 Rasarnava and Rasarnavakalpa 11 Rasasamketakalika to Rasendracudamani 12 Rasendramangala to Rasopanisad 13 Various works on rasasastra and ratnasastra Appendices 1 Authorities associated with formulae 2 References to medicine in non-medical literature Addenda et corrigenda & Reprints Addenda et Corrigenda Reprints Vol. 2b contains notes to the above, and the bibliography. I defy any indologist with a pulse not to find materials of great interest and importance in this publication. Originally requested by Gonda for the "orange" series, this book rapidly grew beyond the size allocation allowed for Gonda's series, and has now found separate publication in its own right in the Groningen Oriental Series. It is a goldmine of information on all aspects of Indian cultural history, and utterly indispensable to anyone working on medicine, body studies, alchemy, tantra, cookery, pulse lore, gemstones, or related subjects. DW From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 20 16:55:13 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 11:55:13 -0500 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065712.23782.14340266896546156712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Satya Upadhya >Theory of "Two truths" does not, so far as i understand, mean visible and >invisible Brahman. I am sorry about that. pUrNamadaH pUrNamidaM does not translate to visible/invisible. I use online text only as quick reference. pUrNamadam: That (one material which has no properties) is "fullness". It is everything. pUNamidam: This (entire world) is "fullness". This is also everything. These are the two truths in my opinion. >It means truth from the provisional practical point of life (what > >Advaitists call "vyahvarika satya"), and truth at the ultimate >metaphysical level ("parmarthika satya"). Thus the food you eat exists at >the level of "vyahvarika satya", but at the higher >metaphysical level >("parmarthika satya") it is just a phantom >conjured up by mortal illusion, >according to both the Advaita >Vedantists and the Mahayana Budhists. It may be so according to mahAyAna buddhism, but I am afraid to say this is not advaita. Apologies Sri Sundaresan, I am not trying to define advaita, just trying to use it sincerely. You can't just make food disappear. If you try, mArjAla nyAyam will react with double force. Food alone is not complete without its companion eater, so food alone is not provisional truth (vyAvahArikA satyA). This is despite 'annam brahmeti' because bhRgu continues with 'annAt tatyeva khalvimAni bhUtAni jAyante'; you can't have 'extra baggage' of 'bhUtA's to ultimate truth. The food and eater together is a complete model, and it acquires 'fullness'. Then this vyAvahArikA satyA of food+eater will be ignored in favor of the pAramArthikA satyA because vyAvahArikA satyA becomes redundant like saying the King owns horses, men and so on. King owns everything in his Kingdom. >[ Two fundamental of the Advaita are: 1. Brahman is the only reality. >2. Brahman is pure consciousness that is devoid of any attributes.] > >Futher to this, i may mention just some of the several sources who accuse >Advaitists of being disguised Mahayana Budhists: > >1. Vijananabhikshu, who coins the phrase "pracchanna baudha" to refer to >the Advaitists (in his intro to the Sankhyapravanbhasay from >the >Padmapurana). Buddhists can have a fun time as long as discussion is limited to one element such as food. When you bring in multiple elements (like eater) or hierarchies of elements they get confused. If you go down the hierarchy of Vedic gods, at lower levels in the yajna there many others needed to make the model complete, such as bRhaspati who makes soma, pUSaN who distributes etc. I understand Buddhists do not accept Vedas, but now there are multi-element empirical models that can work as bench marks which can be used to test theories like advaitA, mahAyAnA etc. Sorry no references, these are just my speculations. >2. Madhva on Brahma Sutra ii.2.29, when he says that the Brahman of the >Advaitists is nothing but the "sunya" of the Sunyavadins. [Rememember that >according to Advaita, the Ultimate Reality is devoid >of any attributes, >and this is the position of the sunyavadis too as >far as i know.] I suppose advaitA was not presented correctly to madhvAchAryA. I believe viSNu is the first one who gets in when yajnA is created ("viSNu is the door-guardian of gods".. AB), therefore perception of viSNu did have a beginning, and it is the start of the perception of yajna itself. Others like aditi will follow suit later on. When perception of yajna goes away, the perception of viSNu also goes away. Again, sorry no references. All this goes to prove Sankara. Regards Bahdraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 20 20:13:53 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 12:13:53 -0800 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065726.23782.14353409038560546479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SM>> Sanskrit persists in the pop culture of Europe, To check with SM>> the situation on the ground in India Dravidian studies with instituitional SM>> support will help, but those endowments are very rare. Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote: >Why look for presumably western endowments.? >. .. why depend upon western endownments? There is no mention of "western" endowments, funds can come from east (eg. Japan or India) or west for Dravidology studies, we don't mind. Several months before you started writing in the list, the list founder forwarded a request for for funds from you. Seeking support for Dravidian studies is no different. <<< > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:52:31 +0100 >From: V.C.Vijayaraghavan > Dear Dominik, > [...] I thought that this news must be brought to the attention of list >members and would be grateful if you can forward it. My wish is that as >many people help it survive and grow in whatever capacity. >I found the news item in a newsgroup posting: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Indian Express : >>> Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote: >I don't remember to have written against christian missionaries working in >India, in this list or anywhere. About western scholarship, I have not written >"against" it, but be aware of it's prejudices and priorities. What are the western Indology scholarship's prejudices and priorities as they are practised now? Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote: >You are calling them Dravidian tribes, but they themselves don't use the >word and not even aware of it. In fact even South Indian were not aware that >till Padiri Caldwell introduced the term. Even then there were riots against >the Reverend's theories. That was how the tamils received 'Dravidian >ethnics' theory- with hostility. You wrote about "Padiri" Caldwell, and the hostility and riots against the Reverend's theories. Is this so? Where can i read about them? Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 20 12:36:59 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 12:36:59 +0000 Subject: bhikkhu, bhikSA Message-ID: <161227065687.23782.4497257496063301616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In spoken Tamil, "avan ataip pikkiRaa_n, piTuGukiRaa_n" means "He is tearing and plucking it away". Also, "kuraGku mAlaiyaip pikkutu"= The monkey is tearing the garland. "pikkal" in old Tamil means "a portion", "a measure of weight" etc., OTL entry: "pikkal" a measure of weight or capacity The verbal root in Tamil is 'pikkutal' related to OTL items: piy-tal 01 1. to be tattered, torn off, torn into bits, as a leaf or cake; 2. to be drawn apart, loosened, parted, separated; 3. to be carded, as cotton; 4. to be torn open, as a hedge; ... piy-ttal 02 1. to rip, tear, pluck off, rend; 2. to separate into parts; 3. to card or pick cotton; 4. to break in pieces, as thin cakes or wafers; to tear into small bits, as paper or leaves; 5. to pluck, break or pinch off, pull out; 6. to break through a hedge; ... The root verbs "piykkutal/pikkutal", and noun 'pikkal' with attestations such as a portion, a measure of weight etc. means "a portion of the whole which was formed/plucked out". In this sense, "pikkal" in Tamil includes the meanings of 'alms'. Commonly, 'piccai'=alms. Compare the -kk-/-cc- alterations in 'pikkal/piccai' with the pair: mUkku 'nose' and mUccu 'breath'. Does bhikkhu contain the meanings of tam. 'pikkal' = a portion? Obviously, bhikkhu > (skt.) bhikSA like milakkha/mleccha > mlekSa. How are the words 'bhikkhu' and 'bhikSA' explained in Sanskrit and Pali? Many thanks, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Dec 20 12:57:51 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 12:57:51 +0000 Subject: SV: Harappan Euhemerus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065689.23782.1734457999277118024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Raveen Satkurunathan wrote: > There is a clear Tamil substratum in the language, which also > appears in place names, kin terms, poetry, dance, and religious beliefs I agree completely with what you say about national identity issues impairing a 20-20 view of Maldivian cultural origins, but I think you put the above a little too strongly. There may indeed be Tamil borrowings in Divehi; there are certainly Malayalam ones. But one must remember that the basic language is Indo-Aryan, and is closest to Sinhala in grammar, morphology, and most of its non-Islamic vocabulary. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Wed Dec 20 21:05:42 2000 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 13:05:42 -0800 Subject: On the name Pitchumani Message-ID: <161227065732.23782.13050764862028922249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I haven't seen it related to S'iva at all (perhaps you are thinking of the bhikSATana-mUrti motif)... it is merely to ward off evil in general that a child is given this name, and in particular a child is given this name when the parents have lost their earlier children somehow. -Srini. Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > Dear Listmembers, > > What is the traditional understanding of the Tamil name Pitchumani? Does it > originate simply from bhikSa? Does anybody relate it to ziva at all? I > believe Srivaishnavites also have that name. Do they have a different > understanding of the name? Thanks in advance. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Dec 20 13:08:10 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 13:08:10 +0000 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) In-Reply-To: <8e.eac5967.27710569@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227065691.23782.5300077414456293109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Brian Akers wrote: > I agree. TeX is completely unsuited for a production environment (ordinary > mortals struggling with deadlines). This isn't really true. TeX is the typesetting engine in the production line for gargantuan publications like the USA's TVGuide. Many typesetting companies use TeX. The public doesn't always get to know about it. E.g. Cambridge Univ. Press, OUP (through LaserWords), Institute of Physics (through Focal Image), the American Math Society, Barkhuis (for Egbert Forsten), and many others. TeX has a very firm position in the professional world of technical typesetting. I'm afraid I think TeX is really easy, and completely usable by novices, and doesn't require any programming at all for most normal academic writing. This is true if you use LaTeX commands and a nice editing interface like Winedt and MikTeX under Windows, which has online help for LaTeX, and makes everything very smooth and convenient. TeX gets tricky if you try to do tricky things, like six layers of independent footnotes coordinated to line numbers. But then, you would expect that. And at least you can do this with TeX, which you can't with most (any?) other tools. On the other hand, I meet person after person who has had nightmare experiences trying to write books with MS Word. Sorry, this is a grossly off-list topic! I'll stop. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From leona.anderson at UREGINA.CA Wed Dec 20 21:29:25 2000 From: leona.anderson at UREGINA.CA (leona anderson) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 13:29:25 -0800 Subject: codes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065720.23782.964309820538688898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am doing some research on the use of codes in the Indian subcontinent and would appreciate any information on codes/cryptography/ciphers, etc as found in Sanskrit literature. many thanks, leona anderson From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Dec 20 13:34:56 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 13:34:56 +0000 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) In-Reply-To: <3A400C50.4B75A239@anthosimprint.com> Message-ID: <161227065696.23782.8337011084036527078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Gunthard Mueller wrote: > What I personally envisage as feasible would be this kind of scenario. [description of migrating-on-demand of data from obsolete formats] In 1977/78 typed two chapters of the Kumarasambhava into machine-readable format. I used an IBM card punch machine. I also wrote lots of programs, and typed some other texts. I vividly remember running (literally) to the computer centre in Oxford in the late 1980s, when I heard that they were about to discard their last card-reader. I managed to hand my shoe-boxes of cards in to the conversion service just days before they stopped accepting cards. As it was, the main card reader had already been shut down, and my cards had to be partly entered by hand, and header-footer cards had to be punched with a hand stencil. The data I rescued from imminent loss is now on 5.25 floppies. I cannot read them either now. I don't believe anybody who thinks data migration is simple, easy, or not a major problem. Preserving computer data is a dynamic, costly process which requires pro-active management. Cf. http://www.clir.org/cpa/abstract/pub63.html -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Wed Dec 20 19:47:49 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 13:47:49 -0600 Subject: codes Message-ID: <161227065724.23782.15160158178278730028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not sure if this is what you are asking, but there is one thing used very extensively, that is a small circle superscript that indicates a word (assumed known by the reader) precedes the following text. Monier Williams and Kane's History of Dharma Shastra also use codes/abbreviations extensively, and you can find them listed there. There are also "key" technical words used in virtually every branch of literature that have specific unique meanings for that piece of literature, just as you find in technical literature in English. Perhaps one of the basic misinterpretations of Sanskrit is that it is almost ALL "technical" literature referring to specific things assumed known by the reader. This is quite different than a more "spoken" type of language that has extensive literature like newspapers and novels where there is kind of "general" vocabulary that almost everyone knows. Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: "leona anderson" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 3:29 PM Subject: codes > I am doing some research on the use of codes in the Indian > subcontinent and would appreciate any information on > codes/cryptography/ciphers, etc as found in Sanskrit literature. > many thanks, leona anderson > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Dec 20 13:57:46 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 13:57:46 +0000 Subject: Chain letters in pre-modern India Message-ID: <161227065700.23782.16535517389640956032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I happened to be reading the Sankastanasanastotra the other day, in the Brhatstotraratnakara, and I came across the following final statement (Velthuis coding): a.stabhyo braahma.nebhya"sca likhitvaa ya.h samarpayet | tasya vidyaa bhavetsarvaa ga.ne"sasya prasaadata.h || 8|| "Someone who writes this and sends it to eight Brahmanas will gain all the sciences, by the grace of Ganesa." I have no idea about the date of this Ganesa stotra. But this must be a fairly early example of an attempt to start a chain letter. Is there any evidence that it worked? Are there other examples? Some MSS of this text attribute it to the Padmapurana. But there seems to be a version with only five verses, which doesn't include the exhortation in v.8 of the BSR version. So there may be added question of when verse 8 got pasted on to the end of the stotra. The http://www.silcom.com/~barnowl/clevo/start.htm site says that evidence of chain letters before 1910 is sparse. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Wed Dec 20 13:28:45 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 14:28:45 +0100 Subject: Indo-Aryan words in Hurrian Message-ID: <161227065698.23782.11717318259449124382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gernot Wilhelm is a leading Hurrologist. His book about the Hurrians, GRUNDZUEGE DER GESCHICHTE UND KULTUR DER HURRITER, Darmstadt 1982, is somewhat outdated, but there is a more updated English translation: THE HURRIANS, Warminster 1989. Wilhelms has earlier defended the "essential" (wesentliche) importance of the Indo-Aryans in Hurrian culture; I do not know his opinion today, let us say after Frank Starke's study and after the excavations at Tell Mozan/Urkesh and Tell Brak. Important studies on the Hurrians are published almost every year in the series STUDIES ON THE CIVILIZATION AND CULTURE OF NUZI AND THE HURRIANS. In volume 10, CDL Press 1999, Wilhelm writes in his introduction: "It should be emphasized that Hurrian and the Hurrians were part and parcel of ancient Near Eastern civilization." One tends to forget this, and there are too few researchers in this field. Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol ---------- > From: Katharina Kupfer > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Indo-Aryan words in Hurrian > Date: 20. desember 2000 01:42 > > Maybe I should remind of the articles of Gernot Wilhelm on Hurrian. He > published several papers including a excellent monography on the > Hurrians (Hurriter. 19?? Darmstadt: wb.) > > Regards, > Katharina Kupfer > -- > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Katharina Kupfer kupferka at uni-freiburg.de > Sprachwissenschaftliches Seminar k.kupfer at em.uni-frankfurt.de > Albert-Ludwigs-Universitaet Freiburg > Werthmannpl. 3 Phone: +49/761/203-3167 > D-79085 Freiburg Fax: +49/761/203-3203 > http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/kupfer.htm > http://www.uni-freiburg.de/indogerm/kupfer.htm > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Wed Dec 20 06:43:09 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 14:43:09 +0800 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065677.23782.7720252316549129619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A Thanks doesn't seem to be enough to say how much I have enjoyed Vidyashankar's understanding/insight on Advaita/Sunyavada and the websites he provides from time to time. The Ultimate of "ultimately, the last word on ontology, epistemology, philosophy, etc. must go beyond word. "Maunabyakyaa prkatitaparam Brhmatatvam yuvaanam". The Advaita has to be understood, but the Buddhist Way has to be lived; one is knowledge, the other, action or practice. Both collapse in the sphere of Silence and expand in sound. That IS the double-truth. Isness is the golden mean! Radhika -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Vidyasankar Sundaresan Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 11:19 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Origins of the "double-truth" Stephen Hodge wrote: >contradictions is dealt, rather with the terms "neyaartha" >(provisional "truth") and niitaartha (definitive "truth"). Buddhists, >on the whole are more concerned with epistemology that ontology >although that did not stop some schools from dabbling in ontology and >were severely criticized for such. I don't know too much about >Vedaanta, but if it ontologizes the "two truths" then it is talking >about something different to most early and Mahayana Buddhists. Ah, there lies the crux of the issue. Almost everybody who talks of Gaudapada and Sankara as crypto-Buddhists, and of Vedanta "stealing" the notion of two truths from Buddhism ignores this. First, they think zUnyatA is an "Absolute", and equate it with the upanishadic brahman. Thus, they completely misunderstand Nagarjuna. Next, they criticize Sankara, whose criticism of "zUnyavAda" is precisely that it does not accept an ontological absolute behind phenomena. Thus, they completely misunderstand Sankara too. Having committed themselves to this double-error, they now say the Vedantin misrepresents the Buddhist, and see his criticism as nothing more than an attempt to hide his supposed "surreptitious borrowing" of the two truths from Buddhism. Ultimately, in Vedanta, to know is to be/become. At some stage, epistemology and ontology have to collapse together. The Vedanta schools differ on whether it is being or becoming that is ontologically sound. The Advaitin accepts "realist" epistemology and "idealist" ontology. (The quotation marks are important; I use these terms with reservations.) For the Advaitin, the non-dual Brahman is an ontological absolute reality, and is itself the paramArtha satya. Important to note, however, is that he does not ontologize Brahman via "reason", but receives it from "revelation", i.e. the upanishads. He cannot and does not rely solely on "revelation" as an argument against the Buddhist, but according to his lights, the Madhyamaka's refusal to accept an ontological absolute leads to nihilism. Now, according to Buddhist principles, it does not, but that is where the mutual debate turns. The Vedantin cannot agree with paratantra svabhAva, or pratItya samutpAda, or with the Madhyamaka's ultimate equation of saMsAra and nirvANa, and presents numerous reasons why he rejects these Buddhist concepts. However, those who say X borrowed from Y, and make this as an accusation/judgement, completely miss the point of the above old debate, and misunderstand both X and Y. In my opinion, this arises from viewing Indian systems of thought primarily through Kantian and/or Hegelian prisms, a dominant feature of the 19th and much of the 20th cent. It is only in recent times that Western scholars have begun to treat Buddhism and its philosphical schools on their own terms. I hope Hinduism and its schools receive the same respect eventually. Non-Indians have to do it first, before Indians interested in Indian philosophies will accept it. Except for the traditional Pundits, a highly reviled class nowadays, most Indians interested in these issues do not know enough Sanskrit to read the primary texts and make their own conclusions. They rely predominantly on the secondary literature, of which more quality work is produced from Europe, USA and Japan, than from India. My take on these issues is easy to dismiss - the reaction is that I am "only interested in defending Sankara". I hope there is some scholar out there, who is ready to write on "What is and isn't Advaita Vedanta"! Vidyasankar From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed Dec 20 23:16:23 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 15:16:23 -0800 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065746.23782.16131616071246724755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote: >Attempts to show that one tradition derived this idea from >another are complicated by the fact that some version of the >double-truth sooner or later showed up in virtually every sacred >or semi-sacred manuscript tradition known. Religious and >philosophical exegetes world-wide recognized (in most cases, if >not all, independently) that if conflicting concepts showed up in >two authoritative texts or traditions, as a last resort the two >sides could be reconciled by distinguishing different "levels" of >reality and redistributing the conflicting concepts to those >respective levels. Lance Cousins responded: > I think we have to distinguish the general case from the specific. We > have a particular distinction of two truths, often using the same or > similar terminology, which is widely used in several quasi-absolutist > traditions by the latter part of the first century A.D. i.e. > Mahaayaana, Gau.dapaada and among Jains by Kundakunda. These are > clearly related by their terminology and methodology. Only in the > Buddhist case do we have a clear earlier history. In fact the > distinction between the two truths derives from abhidharma. Indeed > the Sanskritization as sa.mv.rti has long been known to be erroneous. > It is clear that a distinction of two truths is integral to the > abhidhamma from a very early date and has strong roots in suttanta > material. On Arabic and Western scholastic uses of the concept, Lance comments: > We cannot rule out Indic influence on the Arab world. You would need > examples from Classical antiquity. Analogous concepts can be easily supplied from so-called gnostic and Middle Platonist documents in the Mediterranean and Daoist (also Neo-Daoist) texts in China -- all emerging about the same time as Abhidhamma. Given the close links that existed between exegetical processes and developments in premodern religious and philosophical ideas, there is nothing surprising about these near simultaneities. Once enough internal contradictions accumulated in stratified traditions, the emergence of variant forms of the "double truth" as a reconciliative device was inevitable. It was, in fact, among the most common exegetical strategies (out of the several dozen strategies with known systematic effects) found in the premodern world. You can even find traces of it in later strata of Mesoamerican literate traditions -- e.g., in the eighteen Books of Chilam Balam and in the Popul Vuh. The origins of the strategy can be traced to basic strategies that the brain employs to handle contradictory data: You don't need to trace it to one or another ur-tradition. In saying this, I recognize that once some form of the "double-truth" took root locally, its systematic byproducts were often adopted by later, related, families of traditions without the need for reinvention. This arguably led, e.g., to the kinds of dependencies that you suggest might be traced in India to early use of the "double truth" in Abhidhamma. (To play devil's advocate, however, I'd bet that suggestive adumbrations of the idea might also be found in later Vedic traditions; I can think of several candidate texts.) Similar source hunting, of course, can be used to link Latin and earlier Arabic and Hebrew and Greek uses of the Western versions of the "double-truth" -- if simple source hunting is your game. The idea of adoption can be generalized using theoretical concepts applicable to the evolution of complex systems in general: Obvious "path dependencies" show up in many points in premodern religious, philosophical, and cosmological traditions. One such dependency involved tendencies in a family of related traditions to invoke the same kinds of exegetical strategies repeatedly -- helping give birth along the way to hierarchical and analogical structures closely associated with those strategies. Once an exegetical strategy is adopted early in a tradition, the probability rises that the same strategy will be used in harmonizing conflicts in later strata of this or related (even warring) traditions. Such path dependencies help explain the striking family resemblances that tended to develop in scholastic traditions in one premodern cultural region or another. Such path dependencies play a prominent place in computer simulations of the growth of stratified traditions developed over the past few years by me, John Henderson, and Peter Robinson (a computer modelist at NASA-Ames Research Center). Ralph Abraham, one of the mathematical founders of nonlinear dynamics (chaos theory, complex systems, etc.), has recently joined our collaboration and is helping refine our mathematical ideas. Lance: I think that one of the grounds of our apparent disagreement derives from nothing deeper than our different current research interests. As a comparative historian, I see developments of ideas like the "double-truth" in Abhidamma (or later in Advaita) as local instances of a more global phenomenon. As specialists in Buddhist traditions, you and S. Hodge just as naturally focus on specific cases. I recognize the importance of that approach, since in order to have any predictive power, any model must take into account local as well as global features of whatever it is modeling. I certainly appreciate unique local features of the "double-truth" in Abhadamma. But I'd also argue that many closely related exegetical byproducts evolved independently in many other scholastic traditions. Other grounds of disagreement, I suspect, may lie in differences in our attitudes towards the putative "truth value" of these traditions. (These are awkward terms, but I can't think of substitutes.) Obviously a lot of people on this List continue to view premodern systems of various sorts (e.g., various Buddhist branches, Advaita) as repositories of valid speculative insights about the world. Rather more modestly, I view systems like these as exegetical byproducts of brains reflecting on earlier thought fossilized in stratified textual traditions. In an Averroistic-style double-truth of my own, I suppose, I leave the purported "truth value" of the traditions I study out of the picture. P. Mumme, I think rightly, has emphasized that the structure of Indian religious and philosophical systems (including Advaita) were largely byproducts of exegetical processes "working up" earlier layers of conflicting tradition. I think that her position -- currently an unorthodox one in Indology (but I don't think for long) -- is equally true of other premodern traditions. Once you trace the cumulative history of exegetical transformations through many layers of manuscript traditions, you discover clear emergent features in their structures (e.g., multileveled mirroring structures of various familiar scholastic subtypes). My own textual studies began by looking in minute detail at the exegetical dynamics of extreme hyperscholastic systems at the end of the manuscript era in the West -- at systems which in a sense "summed up" systematic developments from several dozen earlier traditions. My current interests in the earliest stages of stratified traditions in India and China confirms that the same exegetical dynamics were operative much earlier -- thousands of miles from the West. Once you link these findings, new tools emerge to model the rise and fall of premodern religious and philosophical traditions in truly global fashions. The resultant cross-cultural models lead you, in a very reasl sense, in exactly the opposite direction from those currently pursued by extreme nationalistic elements in the Middle East, S. Asia, or China. We are living in a global environment, and I think the time is ripe for our historical methodologies to take cognizance of that fact. Steve Farmer From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Wed Dec 20 14:23:39 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 15:23:39 +0100 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) Message-ID: <161227065706.23782.2150027420201137326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Dominik, sounds like some regular nightmares. Can I help you with your 5.25" disks? We run a digital archive over here, not just for indological materials, and we still support these things. I was around in Oxford in the late 80s, too, and I remember the Zenith PCs... Considering it's 5.25" material, I assume you have Unix or DOS based content. Maybe we can help. I don't think forward-compatibility will be easy at all. It will require major changes in infrastructure to give birth to a feasible digital library scenario. There are entirely new types of services attached to the process. Many institutions will drop out or outsource. New kinds of librarians will emerge... Your horror stories from the eighties (I can add a couple, too) are what you would expect from what is even now a relatively new technology. Considering how long it took for Mr. Daimler and Mr. Benz to produce something for which you did not have to get supplies from the pharmacy, I think it would irresponsible to spread unnecessary doom. The digital library will probably look different from what any of us envisages now, but I am sure it will eventually work if we give our best. If I may add one last note about TeX here. Your examples were almost completely academic or rooted in very early beginnings with hard-to-change gargantuan platform infrastructure. We have supported professional production environments during the last 11 years, and there is not one who has retained TeX. You say TeX can be simple for novices without programming if you use LaTeX commands. I have written visual tools for LaTeX myself and I beg to differ. And using commands IS programming, as far as I know. Comparing TeX to Microsoft Word is strange. Word is not a production environment, either. Anyway, the whole point is that TeX never got properly normed. I also think to encourage anybody at this stage to take up TeX is not what I personally consider responsible. Sorry. I agree this is getting off-list, and I will now definitely not respond any more to TeX messages. Yours, Gunthard Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Gunthard Mueller wrote: > > > What I personally envisage as feasible would be this kind of scenario. > > [description of migrating-on-demand of data from obsolete formats] > > In 1977/78 typed two chapters of the Kumarasambhava into machine-readable > format. I used an IBM card punch machine. I also wrote lots of programs, > and typed some other texts. > > I vividly remember running (literally) to the computer centre in Oxford in > the late 1980s, when I heard that they were about to discard their last > card-reader. I managed to hand my shoe-boxes of cards in to the > conversion service just days before they stopped accepting cards. As it > was, the main card reader had already been shut down, and my cards had to > be partly entered by hand, and header-footer cards had to be punched with > a hand stencil. > > The data I rescued from imminent loss is now on 5.25 floppies. I cannot > read them either now. > > I don't believe anybody who thinks data migration is simple, easy, or not > a major problem. Preserving computer data is a dynamic, costly process > which requires pro-active management. > > Cf. http://www.clir.org/cpa/abstract/pub63.html > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. From poopathi at AA.NET Wed Dec 20 23:42:00 2000 From: poopathi at AA.NET (Poopathi S.Manickam) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 15:42:00 -0800 Subject: On the name Pitchumani Message-ID: <161227065752.23782.9112218893679135935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pitchumani: also..a tamil name for the gall bladder..(?) dark green/bluish in color = black (and so.. mani..?) The gall bladder is a pear shaped sac beneath the liver where bile (kari'sal(tamil?)) very bitter/alkaline fluid secreted by the liver and passed through a duct into the gallbladder.. where it is stored and.. as necessary..released into the duodenum. (bile contains cholesterol and related compounds!) i don't know.. just my gall feeling(s) tells me Eat Garlic /Cilantro/Turmeric--It's Chic to Reek.. NOT! :-P Regards.../Poopathi S.Manickam (Seattle) _____________________________ Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > Compare tamil names like piccamuttu, kuppamuttu, kuppai/kuppu > (Mahamahopadhyaya Kuppusamisastri), maNNukkaTTi/maNNAGkaTTi (Salem/Dharmapuri), > and kannada/tamil names like sAyaNa(n). > > Is -sAyi in anantasAyin, rangasAyin, vaTapatrasAyin Tamil? > Monier-Williams does not give it as Sanskrit in the meaning used here. > > --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > Dear Listmembers, > > > > What is the traditional understanding of the Tamil name Pitchumani? Does it > > originate simply from bhikSa? Does anybody relate it to ziva at all? I > > believe Srivaishnavites also have that name. Do they have a different > > understanding of the name? Thanks in advance. > > > > Regards > > S. Palaniappan > > __________________________________________________ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 20 15:48:03 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 15:48:03 +0000 Subject: bhikkhu, bhikSA Message-ID: <161227065708.23782.15883607070488493831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Checking the list archives, Prof. M. Deshpande's 1996 post about the etymology of bhikSu is useful for me. Refer: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9605&L=indology&P=R14419 Panini will accept a pedestrian explanation for the word root for 'bhikkhu'. This is supported by Tamil also. Though theological speculations will seek higer meanings. I have proposed relation between 'pikkal/piccal' (tamil) and Pkt. bhikkhu. For word initial tamil p-/skt. bh- changes, see DED 3219: Ta. pa.n.ti cart, wagon, carriage; ..... / Cf. Skt. bha.n.di- cart (Hem. U.n. 608). Pkt. bha.n.dii, bha.n.diaa. Mar. bA.dI Incidentally, Marathi bhikbaaLii 'gift of a ear-ring' and tamil "vaaLi" = ear-ring can be compared. -------------------------------------- In spoken Tamil, "avan ataip pikkiRaa_n, piTuGukiRaa_n" means "He is tearing and plucking it away". Also, "kuraGku mAlaiyaip pikkutu"= The monkey is tearing the garland. "pikkal" in old Tamil means "a portion", "a measure of weight" etc., OTL entry: "pikkal" a measure of weight or capacity The verbal root in Tamil is 'pikkutal' related to OTL items: piy-tal 01 1. to be tattered, torn off, torn into bits, as a leaf or cake; 2. to be drawn apart, loosened, parted, separated; 3. to be carded, as cotton; 4. to be torn open, as a hedge; ... piy-ttal 02 1. to rip, tear, pluck off, rend; 2. to separate into parts; 3. to card or pick cotton; 4. to break in pieces, as thin cakes or wafers; to tear into small bits, as paper or leaves; 5. to pluck, break or pinch off, pull out; 6. to break through a hedge; ... The root verbs "piykkutal/pikkutal", and noun 'pikkal' with attestations such as a portion, a measure of weight etc. means "a portion of the whole which was formed/plucked out". In this sense, "pikkal" in Tamil includes the meanings of 'alms'. Commonly, 'piccai'=alms. Compare the -kk-/-cc- alterations in 'pikkal/piccai' with the pair: mUkku 'nose' and mUccu 'breath'. Does bhikkhu contain the meanings of tam. 'pikkal' = a portion? Obviously, bhikkhu > (skt.) bhikSA like milakkha/mleccha > mlekSa. How are the words 'bhikkhu' and 'bhikSA' explained in Sanskrit and Pali? Many thanks, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Dec 20 20:56:08 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 15:56:08 -0500 Subject: codes Message-ID: <161227065730.23782.6978320583385732588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have collected a number of articles on cryptographic phenomena in India, most not specifically on Sanskrit. I will try to put together a bibliography early in the new year. Would anyone be interested in mounting it if I do? Things are too bureaucratic here. There was also a poster put up at the World Sanskrit Conference in Turin that two Italian private scholars (lawyers as I recall) were looking for collaborators in the study of India cryptography. I will try to dig up their addresses at the same time. Ms. Anderson will please remind me if I'm slow about this. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 20 22:29:13 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 17:29:13 -0500 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065741.23782.15769761678962484411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Satya Upadhya I do not intend to disturb your flow. I am finding your postings extremely educative in scope and content. >The choice of the theme is evidently based on the assumption that atomism >being the most advanced form of the theory of of the nature >of matter, the >refutation of atomism means the demolition of the >concept of matter as >such. The concept of matter thus eliminated from >philosophy, Dignaga--like >Vasubandhu--feels safe about his commitment >to the view that ideas and >ideas alone are real. This is the way in >which he defends his subjective >idealism A physician may know that humans are made of flesh, bones etc, but still loves a person of opposite sex. In this case the form is still associated with the idea even after the object has been atomised. I believe the object and/or its form is associated with every idea, though there may be ideas/objects for which no corresponding mapping may be readily known in an expressible language. >--> In particular, i draw your attention to the claim that Dharmakirti's >"sahopalambha-niyama" argument (the claim that one can >never jump out of >the circle of one's own ideas and reach the object >directly, and hence >what one knows is invariably only one's ideas and >never the things outside >the mind), designed to strengthen his >idealism, has a counterpart (to a >great extent) in the philosophy of >Bishop Berkely. Piece of cake. Please check following for what it is worth.. http://homes.acmecity.com/friends/harmonica/301/compk0.html That was based on Br.U. I.V.5-10, and argues that the "unknown" is also part of the game as a protection system. Once the unknown gets into the scene there is no limit to how ideas can change. In fact the biggest mystery of mankind is that life would be so confusing if a coffee cup in the hand suddenly becomes a news paper; but people are quite comfortable when ideas in their mind change every fraction of a second. That is because, as per the argument of Br.U, when ideas change unexpectedly the prANA protects by itself becoming the unknown idea. Bringing the "unknown" into the equation systematically, and placing it at an "appropriate place" (this is important!) (as per the rules of yajna, may I add?) into the scheme of things, has been a clever strategy of Vedicists. It can do wonders in unexpected ways. I am not partial to advaitists, though I take advaitic positions for my convenience. Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Dec 20 23:15:42 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 18:15:42 -0500 Subject: On the name Pitchumani Message-ID: <161227065748.23782.18368474991075968309.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/20/2000 3:16:37 PM Central Standard Time, srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM writes: > I haven't seen it related to S'iva at all (perhaps you are thinking of the > bhikSATana-mUrti motif)... Yes. For instance ziva is often called piccan2. For example, meyc ciram aNaiccu ulakil niccam iTu piccai amar piccan2 iTam Am (tEv.3.67.11) Moreover, ziva who is called a mad man (pittan2) by cuntarar is supposed to dance with madness (piccu) as given below. piccu ATal pEyOTu ukantAy pORRi piRavi aRukkum pirAn2E pORRi (tEv.6.55.2) >?From what I have been told, zrIvaiSNavas avoid names resembling zaivite names. That is why it was interesting for me to learn that even orthodox zrIvaiSNavas have the name pitchumani/pichumani with a possibility of (mistaken?) association with ziva. it is merely to ward off evil in general that a > child is given this name, and in particular a child is given this name when > the parents have lost their earlier children somehow. Yes. Love for the child seems to overcome any zrIvaiSNava misgivings about potential association with zaivism. But the love of parents irrespective of sectarian affiliation also seems to cheat the evil forces by sneaking in a very positive "gem" to attach to the apparently unattractive facade presented by "pictchu/pichu/piccu". Regards S. Palaniappan From leona.anderson at UREGINA.CA Thu Dec 21 02:24:54 2000 From: leona.anderson at UREGINA.CA (leona anderson) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 18:24:54 -0800 Subject: codes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065762.23782.255408395415980473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Allen: I would be grateful for such a bibliography. Before I say >yes, what exactly do you mean by "mounting it"? If you could dig up >the names of the Italian scholars, I would also be grateful. leona >anderson >I have collected a number of articles on cryptographic phenomena in >India, most not specifically on Sanskrit. I will try to put together >a bibliography early in the new year. Would anyone be interested in >mounting it if I do? Things are too bureaucratic here. There was also >a poster put up at the World Sanskrit Conference in Turin that two >Italian private scholars (lawyers as I recall) were looking for >collaborators in the study of India cryptography. I will try to dig >up their addresses at the same time. Ms. Anderson will please remind >me if I'm slow about this. > > >Allen Thrasher > > > > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > >Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE >Southern Asia Section LJ-150 >Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 >Library of Congress U.S.A. >tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 >Email: athr at loc.gov > >The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the >Library of Congress. From leona.anderson at UREGINA.CA Thu Dec 21 02:35:06 2000 From: leona.anderson at UREGINA.CA (leona anderson) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 18:35:06 -0800 Subject: codes In-Reply-To: <002001c06abd$bdb087c0$0bcc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227065764.23782.4652789994623440626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Thanks for your reply. I was thinking more along the lines of >methods of encryption employed to ensure that information remained >within a particular group. this could be for military purposes, of >course, but also in the context of transmitting information within >particular religous groups (I guess I am thinking monastic here). >Actually, any sort of "secret" information. The Kamasutra uses the >term mlecchita vikalpaa and advises women acquire it to keep secret >their private liasons (this is number 45 in the list of 64 arts). I >have yet to check this citation but it comes from siman Singh's book >"Code."(p. 9) In any case, this is the sort of material that I am >looking for. You raise an important point, though, re: Sanskrit/oral traditions/etc. thanks leona anderson >I am not sure if this is what you are asking, but there is one thing used >very extensively, that is a small circle superscript that indicates a word >(assumed known by the reader) precedes the following text. Monier Williams >and Kane's History of Dharma Shastra also use codes/abbreviations >extensively, and you can find them listed there. > >There are also "key" technical words used in virtually every branch of >literature that have specific unique meanings for that piece of literature, >just as you find in technical literature in English. Perhaps one of the >basic misinterpretations of Sanskrit is that it is almost ALL "technical" >literature referring to specific things assumed known by the reader. This is >quite different than a more "spoken" type of language that has extensive >literature like newspapers and novels where there is kind of "general" >vocabulary that almost everyone knows. > >Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "leona anderson" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 3:29 PM >Subject: codes > > >> I am doing some research on the use of codes in the Indian >> subcontinent and would appreciate any information on > > codes/cryptography/ciphers, etc as found in Sanskrit literature. > > many thanks, leona anderson > > From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 20 19:21:36 2000 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 19:21:36 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065718.23782.3531913160760216048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > >Ah, there lies the crux of the issue. Almost everybody >who talks of Gaudapada and Sankara as crypto-Buddhists, >and of Vedanta "stealing" the notion of two truths from >Buddhism ignores this. > >First, they think zUnyatA is an "Absolute", and equate >it with the upanishadic brahman. Thus, they completely >misunderstand Nagarjuna. Next, they criticize Sankara, >whose criticism of "zUnyavAda" is precisely that it >does not accept an ontological absolute behind phenomena. >Thus, they completely misunderstand Sankara too. Having >committed themselves to this double-error, they now say >the Vedantin misrepresents the Buddhist, and see his >criticism as nothing more than an attempt to hide his >supposed "surreptitious borrowing" of the two truths >from Buddhism. --> You do not say who you mean by "they", but let me tell you who "they" are. By "they", you are referring to S.N. Dasgupta (see his "Indian idealism" and the 1st vol. of his "History of Indian Philosophy); D.P. Chattopadhyaya (see his "What is living and what is dead in Indian Philosophy"); Satkari Mookherjee (see the "Nana-nalanda Mahavira Research Publications 1957" (of which he is editor); and also his "Budhist Philosophy of Universal Flux"); Stcherbatsky (see his "Conception of Budhist Nirvana and "Budhist Logic"); and also, with some reservations, S.Radhakrishnan (2nd vol. of his "Indian Philosophy") and B.N.K. Sharma (see the 1st vol. of his "History of Dvaita school of Vedanta and its literature"). I am sure there are other scholars who have drawn similar conclusions; this is just a prelimnary list. --> Suffice to say ur implication that these scholars have failed to understand the Advaita and the Mahayana appears to be a little presumptious on ur part. > >Ultimately, in Vedanta, to know is to be/become. At >some stage, epistemology and ontology have to collapse >together. The Vedanta schools differ on whether it is >being or becoming that is ontologically sound. --> The Vedanta schools actually have several differences, ontological and epistemological (the epistemological differences between dvaita and advaita are significant). The chief difference, however, lies in the interpretation of the Upanisads (since there exist "bheda sruti" and "abheda sruti", and these have to be reconciled). The >Advaitin accepts "realist" epistemology and "idealist" >ontology. (The quotation marks are important; I use >these terms with reservations.) --> Your claim appears to be incorrect. Advaitins are idealistic in both epistemology and ontology as is agreed by all major writers on Indian philosophy. (Kindly see the list of writers i mentioned for references to Advaitist epistemology.)Sankar's Adhyaya bhasya (available as a translation by Thibaut) contains a description of his epistemology. [I'll e-mail this to you, if you wish.] For a general denunciation of reasoning itself, kindly see Sankar's Vedanta bhasya ((ii.1.11)) [ i am personally relying on George Thibaut's translation of this.] [ The epistemology of Dvaita Vedanta, however, is realist.] For the Advaitin, the >non-dual Brahman is an ontological absolute reality, >and is itself the paramArtha satya. Important to note, >however, is that he does not ontologize Brahman via >"reason", but receives it from "revelation", i.e. the >upanishads. He cannot and does not rely solely on >"revelation" as an argument against the Buddhist, but >according to his lights, the Madhyamaka's refusal to >accept an ontological absolute leads to nihilism. --> If by "nihilism", you mean that the Madhyamaka's are atheists, then you are right. If you believe that they do not subscribe to an Ultimate Reality, then it would seem you are wrong. See D.P. Chattopadhyaya's "What is living and what is dead in Indian Philosophy", and S.N. Dasgupta's "Indian idealism" for more on this. Now, >according to Buddhist principles, it does not, but that >is where the mutual debate turns. The Vedantin cannot >agree with paratantra svabhAva, or pratItya samutpAda, >or with the Madhyamaka's ultimate equation of saMsAra >and nirvANa, and presents numerous reasons why he >rejects these Buddhist concepts. --> Pratitya samutpada is the law of universal flux; i agree that Advaitists do not agree with this. They do agree with paratantra, as i will make clear in a subseq. post. The sunyavadi's way of equating the world with the ultimate reality is strikingly similar to that of the Advaitists (although i agree that differences do exist between sunyavada and Advaita, but these are minor as compared to the similarites between them). Again, see the list of writers i gave before. > >However, those who say X borrowed from Y, and make this >as an accusation/judgement, completely miss the point of >the above old debate, and misunderstand both X and Y. --> These accusations have been leveled against the Advaita for centuries, even by other Vedantists (including both the Dvaita Vedantists and Visistadvaitists). Eminenent modern scholars agree with the accusations. Surely it is not inappropriate to inquire into the matter. I hope Hinduism and its schools receive >the same respect eventually. Non-Indians have to do it >first, before Indians interested in Indian philosophies >will accept it. --> my hope is that other hindu philosophies (Mimansa, Sankhya, Lokayata, Nyaya-Vaisesik, Dvaita Vedanta, etc.), and not just the Advaita Vedanta, will be treated with respect eventually. >Except for the traditional Pundits, a >highly reviled class nowadays, --> there is no basis for this claim of yours. I have personally attended a function at Benaras Hindu University at which a High Court judge gave a lecture and took part in discussions with the Sanskrit scholars at the university. (He was talking about the Mimansa principles of interpretations, and how one could use it in jurisprudence, and more practically, in the cases before him.) >most Indians interested >in these issues do not know enough Sanskrit to read the >primary texts and make their own conclusions. --> if this was directed at me, i accept your charge. I do not know Sanskrit, although i am trying to learn it. >hey rely >predominantly on the secondary literature, of which more >quality work is produced from Europe, USA and Japan, than >from India. --> This is a slap in the face on all the genuine scholars in India, who are working on these issues. >My take on these issues is easy to dismiss - >the reaction is that I am "only interested in defending >Sankara". --> Yes, that is my reaction to what you wrote. I hope there is some scholar out there, who is >ready to write on "What is and isn't Advaita Vedanta"! > --> Much work has been done on this by Dasgupta, Chattopadhyaya, Satkari Mookherjee, Stcherbatsky and others, although i agree that more work needs to be done on this. -Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From zydenbos at GMX.LI Wed Dec 20 19:18:27 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 20:18:27 +0100 Subject: Dravidian origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065716.23782.5127704345009815669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 17 Dec 2000, um 23:18 schrieb Bjarte Kaldhol: > Since I wanted to know something about the Dravidian languages without > going so far as to read a grammar of Tamil, I sat down to read > Zvelebil's article in Encyclopaedia Britannica (Vol. 22, 15th > edition). In the third paragraph, he states: "Nothing definite is > known about the origin of the Dravidian family." > Well, let us see what this professed ignorance leads to: [...] > 3. A hypothesis has been gaining ground that posits a movement of > Dravidian speakers from the northwest to the south and east of the > peninsula, a movement originating possibly from Central Asia. (This > hypothesis is not substantiated, and Zvelebil later confesses that > "nothing definite is known about the ancient domain of the > Dravidian parent speech".) [...] Firstly, you should not read a mere encyclopedia article. Much better is Zvelebil's book _Dravidian Lingusitics: An Introduction_, which I have mentioned some time before on this list (publ. Pondicherry, I believe by the Pondicherry Institute of Linguistics and Culture, in 1990 or 1992 or so. I do not have my copy of the book at hand for the exact reference, sorry). A few chapters deal with the question of relationships between Dravidian and other language families, and Zv. gives bibliographies for further reading. Secondly, after reading those chapters (through which you will learn that Dravidian is more than Tamil ;-) ), you will see that Zv.'s standard for what is "definite" is rather high. A migration of this language family via the Indian northwest is rather certain; but it cannot as yet definitely be said whether Dravidian came from central Asia or from further west. On this matter too, Zv. gives good bibliographies for further reading. RZ Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen From zydenbos at GMX.LI Wed Dec 20 19:37:11 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 20:37:11 +0100 Subject: PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065722.23782.14712439828528810987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 20 Dec 2000, um 13:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Brian Akers wrote: > > > I agree. TeX is completely unsuited for a production environment > > (ordinary mortals struggling with deadlines). > > This isn't really true. TeX is the typesetting engine in the > production line for gargantuan publications [...] It appears still less true if one knows handy graphical front-ends for TeX use like Lyx for Linux (sorry for the repeated propaganda, but I've become a Linux-lover) and the still nicer version of it for the KDE desktop environment, kLyx, which are open-source sortware. I find them actually easier to use for producing long texts than the usual WYSIWYG word processors with style sheets. They produce LaTeX output (if you want them to) without the user needing to know a single TeX command; you can do just about everything (also printing, or viewing the output on-screen before printing) without knowing the basics of TeX; and if you do know (La)TeX, you can insert your own special commands if you want. They also take care of placing footnotes (cf. one of Gunthard Mueller's main complaints about TeX). And much help information, and tutorials, are a click away on your hard disk. > Sorry, this is a grossly off-list topic! I'll stop. But perhaps useful all the same. :-) RZ From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 20 20:54:11 2000 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 20:54:11 +0000 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065728.23782.14372581571972254687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: Anyway, to say that Yogaacarins deny the reality of the >world but admit the reality of ideas is to totally misread their >position. They deny the existence per se of the objective pole of >perception but, importantly, equally deny the existence per se of >ideas/mind. I suggest you read the latter part of Vasubandhu's >Tri.m`sika carefully and you'll see what I mean. --> Consider the following: --> Kumarila Bhatta (circa 7th century), the outstanding opponent of Indian idealism, gives the views of both Yogacara (vijnana-vada), and Madhyamika (sunya-vada). In his "Sloka Vartika" (Niralamabana-vada 14-6)), Kumarila writes (as his "purva paksa"): "The Yogacaras hold that Ideas are without corresponding realities(in the external world); and those who hold the Madhyamika doctrine deny the reality of the ideas also. In both, however, the denial of the external object is common ("tatra bahyarthasunyatvam tulyam tavad dvyorapi"). " Also,in refuting both the Yogacara and Madhyamika position, Kumarila is mainly is mainly interested in proving the reality of the external material objects. --> i'll come back to this point later. > > > For example, there is the text > > "Alambana-pariksa" [meaning 'the critical examination of the >material > > objects alleged to correspond to ideas'] by the great Dignaga in >which he > > wants to prove that the admission of such objects is philosophically > > untenable. >I agree with Birgit Kellner's response to this. Part of the problem >revolves around how one defines and understands "aalambana". --> I have not read Dignaga's text, and my understanding of this is based on D.P. Chattopadhyaya's "What is living and what is dead in Indian Philosophy". On page 35 of his book, Chattopadhyaya writes: Thus, he [Dignaga] writes a famous work called "the critical examination of the material objects alleged to correspond to ideas" (Alamabana-pariksa), in which he wants to prove that the admission of such objects is philosophically untenable. The main theme of the book is the refutation of atomism--a theme on which his master Vasubandhu had already written. The choice of the theme is evidently based on the assumption that atomism being the most advanced form of the theory of of the nature of matter, the refutation of atomism means the demolition of the concept of matter as such. The concept of matter thus eliminated from philosophy, Dignaga--like Vasubandhu--feels safe about his commitment to the view that ideas and ideas alone are real. This is the way in which he defends his subjective idealism >Perhaps you >are basing your opinions on the La`nkaavataara-suutra which is >popularly thought to be a Yogacaara text. --> No, i am relying on Vasubandhu's "Vimsatika", Dignaga's "Pramana samuccaya" (along with a commentary by Jinendrabudhi(circa 8th century A.D.)), Dharmakirti's "Nyaya-bindu" (along with commentaries on it by Vinitadeva (circa 7th century AD) and Dharamottara (circa 8th century AD), and also the commentary on Dharmottara called "Nyayabindu-tika-tippani"-often referred as "tippani"--by someone considered to be a junior contempory of Dharmottra); and also Dharmakirti's "Pramana-vartika". Please note that Dharmakirti and Dignaga cannot be understood unless you have read their commentators, as far as i understand. I am also relying on Vachaspati's Mishra's interpretation of Dignaga's views, and also the views of Dharmakirti as given in the "SarvadarsanaSangrah" of Madhva. --> In particular, i draw your attention to the claim that Dharmakirti's "sahopalambha-niyama" argument (the claim that one can never jump out of the circle of one's own ideas and reach the object directly, and hence what one knows is invariably only one's ideas and never the things outside the mind), designed to strengthen his idealism, has a counterpart (to a great extent) in the philosophy of Bishop Berkely. --> Lastly, i will say that eminent scholars like S.N. Dasgupta, S.Radhakrishnan, D.P. Chattopadhyaya,Stcherbatsky and others view the Yogacara position to be an idealistic one. -Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 20 21:54:31 2000 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 21:54:31 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065739.23782.12173732896578587471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a reply to Steve Farmer: My views are principally based on the writings of D.P. Chattopadhyaya, S.N.Dasgupta, Stcherbatsky, and others. I would suggest you read Dasgupta's "Indian idealism", and "History of Indian Philosophy vol.1", and Chattopadhyaya's "What is living and what is dead in Indian Philosophy" for a detailed account on this matter. Further, i find it strange that the Advaitists have been accused of surreptiously borrowing ideas from the Budhists by other Vedantists (in particular the Dvaitists, but also the Visistadvaitists and others) and by other Indian philosophers. For an extremely hostile attack on the Advaitists by the Dvaita Vedantists (on the grounds of their borrowing ideas from the Budhists), kindly see Encyclopaediea of Religion and Ethics vol.8, pg. 232-233. The views in the Encylopaedia are primarily based on two Dvaita texts--"Madhvavijaya"(Mv), and "Manimanjari"(Mm), both of which were written by Narayana, a son of Trivikrama, who was a direct disciple of Madhva. I am giving a few extracts from the Encyclopaedia here(copious references to the original texts are given at the end of almost every sentence in the encyclopaedia; i am not giving all the references): ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In the Vana-parvana(Mm iii.11,661f.)it is related that Bhima attacked certain Yaksas or Raksasas, belonging to the country beyond the Himalya, and killed their leader,Manimat.Manimat had earlier offerred a filthy insult to the Indian sage Agastya (the apostle of Southern India)....The narrative of the events in the Kaliyuga, or present age of the world, commences in the 5th sarga of Mm. At first, the knowledge of the Vedas, as taught by Krsna and Bhima(Mm v.1), reigns supereme. Then the Asuras conspired to spread false doctrines. The demon Sakuni...points out that other heresies...had all failed (9-15). Therefore Manimat, who alone had enough skill, must become incarnate as a Brahman ascetic, and must destroy the Vedanta under cover of explaining it (15ff.). Manimat is dispatched with instructions to abolish the Vedas and Puranas, to ridicule the theory that Visnu has gunas, or qualities, and to establish the identity of the soul with Brahman. [note that, according to Dvaita, Brahman is endowed with all the auspicious attributes ("saguna"), while according to Advaita, Brahmana is devoid of any attributes ("nirguna")--Satya] Here (29), the story digresses to tell how at that time the whole Earth was under the sway of Budhism, and to describe the sway of Budhism, and to describe the efforts of Sabara and Kumarila to refute it by the aid of the Purva Mimansa.... The 6th sarga continues this, narrating the success of Kumarila... At this stage of affairs, Manimat is born as a widow's bastard (Mm v1.3, Mv i.46). He is hence named Samkara (the Madhva books uniformly change the great Samkara's[represented in the Encyclopaedia with a dot over the S--Satya] name to Samkara [no dot over the S-Satya])The object is plain. Samkara [with dot over the S] means "auspicious", but Samkara [with no dot] "misbegotten" or "rubbish". He is brought up in great poverty, and (as a slap at the monism subsequently taught by him), it is related that in his boyhood he could count only one thing at a time, never being able to see a second(Mm, v1.10).He is taken to Saurastra, where...he quickly masters the sacred books. He then goes from teacher to teacher, but is turned off by them for his heretical views. He invents his doctrine, described as "sunya-marga" and "nirgunatva" and is hailed by the demons as their savior (24).On their advice he joins the Budhists and teaches Budhism under cover of Vedantism. He makes the Vedas without meaning, and equates Brahman with nothingness ("sunyatva") (46).He becomes a Sakta, and messenger of Bhairavi, who confers upon him a magic spell (51). The 7th sarga describes further disgraceful events in Sanmkara's life. He seduces the wife of his Brahman host (1ff.). He makes converts by magic arts. He falls sick and dies. His last words are instructions to his disciples to uproot the learned Satyaprajna, the last of the great teachers of the Vedic doctrine. In the 8th sarga we have the doings of Samkara's followers. They persecute their opponents, burning down monasteries, destroying cattle-pens, and by magic arts killing women and children (2). They forcibly convert one of their chief opponents, Prajnatirtha, and compel him and his disciples to adopt the "Maya" system (5). These, however, still secretly adhere to the true religion.... ...The book[Mm] ends with a brief account of Madhva's work, specially mentioning that he composed a commentary on the "Vedanta-sutra" utterly destroying that made by the thief Manimat-Samkara. --------------------------------------------------------------------- If you were a little taken aback by the above, please know that i was personally flabbergasted when i came across this. -Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 20 22:50:40 2000 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 22:50:40 +0000 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065743.23782.17804071058909381440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >I am sincerely impressed by the amount of materials you must have read >and carefully studied, no doubt in their original language, or in the >Asian language in which they are preserved (Tibetan in the case of the >PramANasamuccaya and commentary, as well as in the case of >VinItadeva's commentary on NB) - as anyone dealing with this >particular school of Indian thought would no doubt do. --> i have read the original works neither in the original Sanskrit, neither have i read the whole of them in translation. I have only read parts of them in translation, and also the criticism of these books by more modern modern scholars. >The "sahopalambha-niyama"-argument essentially >says that images such as blue and their perceptual cognitions are >non-different, >because they are necessarily cognized together. First of all, this >argument does not entail the non-existence of external >reality --> you keep saying that the Yogacara does not deny external material objects/external reality. Could you give some sources for this (modern sources i mean)? [ kindly do not give me online sources as i have found that many of them are not reliable.] My understanding of the argument is that according to this law "we never know an object as distinct from the sensations or ideas. Whatever is known is known as identical with the ideas." (See pg 80 of Chattopadhyaya's What is living and what is dead in Indian Philosophy.) Dharmakirti himself says the following (as quoted in Madhva's "Sarvadarsanasangraha"): "The object known as blue and the knowledge thereof are identical, because of the law of their being invariably known as inseparable." >- the images within cognitions may well derive from external >entities. Secondly, the sahopalambhaniyama-argument is rather complex >and was used for a variety of purposes within the Buddhist >epistemological tradition (see Takashi Iwata's introduction to his >seminal study on the sahopalambhaniyama-inference). --> i am not interested in how other Budhists used this argument for now; let us concentrate, for now, on how Dharmakirti used this argument. > >-->> Lastly, i will say that eminent scholars like S.N. Dasgupta, >SU> S.Radhakrishnan, D.P. Chattopadhyaya,Stcherbatsky and others view the >SU> Yogacara position to be an idealistic one. > >Eminent scholars they may well be, but the study of especially >Buddhist epistemology has advanced considerably since those scholars >published their works, because new materials have been made available >and because new methods of interpretation have gained currency. --> i had mentioned these by name because they are fairly renowned and it is not so easy to dismiss away their claims (as would be in the case of some modern scholar of whom few have heard about). If you are seriously >interested in this issue, however, I would recommend updating your >sources. > Here is a more modern souce: "Kumarila Bhatta's refutation of the dreaming argument" by John A. Taber (in Studies in Mimansa (ed. R.C. Dwivedi) Motilal Banarsidas Publishers. New Delhi, 1994). In this article, Kumarila's refutation of Vasubandhu's views (as recorded in the "Vimsatika"), is presented by Taber. -Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Thu Dec 21 03:50:52 2000 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 22:50:52 -0500 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065737.23782.5548770013488786995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wednesday, December 20, 2000, 3:54:11 PM, Satya Upadhya wrote: -->> I have not read Dignaga's text, and my understanding of this is based on SU> D.P. Chattopadhyaya's "What is living and what is dead in Indian SU> Philosophy". On page 35 of his book, Chattopadhyaya writes: SU> Thus, he [Dignaga] writes a famous work called "the critical examination SU> of the material objects alleged to correspond to ideas" (Alamabana-pariksa), SU> in which he wants to prove that the admission of such objects is SU> philosophically untenable. The main theme of the book is the refutation of SU> atomism--a theme on which his master Vasubandhu had already written. I have already summarized the arguments presented in AP in another posting. Based on that summary, you will see that Chattopadhyaya's assertions are misguided. -->> No, i am relying on Vasubandhu's "Vimsatika", Dignaga's "Pramana SU> samuccaya" (along with a commentary by Jinendrabudhi(circa 8th century SU> A.D.)), Dharmakirti's "Nyaya-bindu" (along with commentaries on it by SU> Vinitadeva (circa 7th century AD) and Dharamottara (circa 8th century AD), SU> and also the commentary on Dharmottara called SU> "Nyayabindu-tika-tippani"-often referred as "tippani"--by someone considered SU> to be a junior contempory of Dharmottra); and also Dharmakirti's SU> "Pramana-vartika". Please note that Dharmakirti and Dignaga cannot be SU> understood unless you have read their commentators, as far as i understand. SU> I am also relying on Vachaspati's Mishra's interpretation of Dignaga's SU> views, and also the views of Dharmakirti as given in the SU> "SarvadarsanaSangrah" of Madhva. I am sincerely impressed by the amount of materials you must have read and carefully studied, no doubt in their original language, or in the Asian language in which they are preserved (Tibetan in the case of the PramANasamuccaya and commentary, as well as in the case of VinItadeva's commentary on NB) - as anyone dealing with this particular school of Indian thought would no doubt do. The following assertion suggests to me, however, that your interpretations are problematic insofar as statements made in the sources are taken out of context and then interpreted largely according to, loosely put, whatever notions you associated with the expressions that occur in them: -->> In particular, i draw your attention to the claim that Dharmakirti's SU> "sahopalambha-niyama" argument (the claim that one can never jump out of SU> the circle of one's own ideas and reach the object directly, and hence what SU> one knows is invariably only one's ideas and never the things outside the SU> mind), designed to strengthen his idealism, has a counterpart (to a great SU> extent) in the philosophy of Bishop Berkely. The "sahopalambha-niyama"-argument essentially says that images such as blue and their perceptual cognitions are non-different, because they are necessarily cognized together. First of all, this argument does not entail the non-existence of external reality - the images within cognitions may well derive from external entities. Secondly, the sahopalambhaniyama-argument is rather complex and was used for a variety of purposes within the Buddhist epistemological tradition (see Takashi Iwata's introduction to his seminal study on the sahopalambhaniyama-inference). Of course, if you let your mind wander you may read the "claim that one can never jump out of the circle of one's own ideas" and so on from the pertinent passages, but I doubt that in doing so, you would be correctly representing a view historically held by some Buddhist epistemologists and connected with the sahopalambhaniyama-inference, or that you would characterize the theoretical potential of this inference in an adequate manner. Merely reading Sanskrit sentences or their translation is not enough to provide a satisfactory interpretation of their philosophical content. -->> Lastly, i will say that eminent scholars like S.N. Dasgupta, SU> S.Radhakrishnan, D.P. Chattopadhyaya,Stcherbatsky and others view the SU> Yogacara position to be an idealistic one. Eminent scholars they may well be, but the study of especially Buddhist epistemology has advanced considerably since those scholars published their works, because new materials have been made available and because new methods of interpretation have gained currency. Information on studies that are more up to date can be gathered from Ernst Steinkellner & Michael Torsten Much: "Texte der erkenntnistheoretischen Schule des Buddhismus." Systematische Uebersicht ueber die buddhistische Sanskrit-Literatur II. Goettingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. This is a bibliography of secondary literature on Buddhist epistemology; consulting it is a must for anyone with a serious interest in Buddhist pramANa. I am not saying that the above scholars were wrong in calling YogAcAra "idealistic"; I have not examined this question so thoroughly as to be compenent enough for a qualified opinion. If you are seriously interested in this issue, however, I would recommend updating your sources. --- Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Dec 20 23:59:05 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 23:59:05 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065757.23782.2269751970798897895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: > None of this is relevant to the main point of my post, which was > that scholastic bifurcations of concepts -- in this case, > pertinent to countless Eurasian variations of the "double-truth" > -- were driven by exegetical processes. You do not seem to have gasped the point I was making -- perhaps I did not express myself well enough. While I was supplying you with terminological information with regards to the thread that prompted your original posting, I was not denying that the Buddhists employed a hermeneutical technique which parallels what you term "double-truth" but I was drawing your attention to the fact that in Mahayana Buddhism the terms "paramaartha-satya" and "sa.mv.riti-satya" might look as though they could be translated (loosely) as "ultimate truth/reality" and relative truth/reality" and thus be a Buddhist equivalent to a "double-truth" paradigm but are not. These terms, as I said, relate to epistemological matters -- "paramaartha-satya" is what is accessed by direct perception (prayak.sa-pramaa.na) and "sa.mv.riti-satya" by inferential / conceptual processes (anumaa.na) -- they are not generally used as exegetical devices. The Mahayaana Buddhist terms which are more or less equivalent to other "double-truth" terminology are "neyaartha" and "niitaartha". The rest of your comments are irrelevent to what I was saying since I was not in principle disagreeing with you -- perhaps you should read what I write more carefully before jumping to conclusions. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 21 00:09:05 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 00:09:05 +0000 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065755.23782.3885122840976390621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: >1. FIFTH ADHYAYA-FIRST BRAHMANA which talks about "the invisible Brahman" >and "the visible Brahman" This is simply the pUrNam adaH pUrNam idam verse in the bRhadAraNyaka, and it can be interpreted otherwise. More important sources for a two truths theory in Vedanta are the phrase "neti, neti" in BU 2. 3. 6, and the even more explicit, "yatra hi dvaitam iva bhavati ..., yatra tv asya sarvam AtmaivAbhUt ..." (BU 2. 4. 14 and 4. 5. 15). This is a clear distinction of two levels of reality. So also, "na dRshTer drashTAram pazyeH, ... na vijnAter vijnAtAraM vijAnIyAH" (BU 3. 4. 2). Everything here is closely tied to Vedantic ontology and epistemology. Now, if one wants to think that in more than thousand years between this upanishad and Sankara's commentary on it, nobody in the upanishadic tradition(s) made the same distinction, and that mature advaita authors stole it from another tradition, one is welcome to that opinion. Moreover, one also has to realize that within Vedanta traditions, the Advaita view can only be faulted by one who is already committed to a different interpretation, e.g. Madhva's. A comparative analysis of Advaita and Buddhism need not be tied to an opposing viewpoint within Vedanta. [Aside, for Steve Farmer and Lance Cousins - Other early upanishadic texts that lend themselves to the Vedantic theory of two truths (or even multiple levels of truth) are 6th and 7th chapters of chAndogya upanishad, and the mUNDaka and prazna upanishad references to parA vidyA vs. aparA vidyA. In the upanishads themselves, these theories don't arise because of attempting to reconcile irreconcilable elements in prior texts. There is a clear consciousness that these are new texts, different from the earlier Vedic samhitA-s. Exegesis is not yet central, although new ideas are presented in terms of old ritual elements. It is only after 5th century CE that exegetical concerns become important, taking these very upanishads as the texts that need exegesis. In terms of temporal priority, chAndogya and bRhadAraNyaka are clearly pre- Buddhist, but how one wants to date Buddhist abhidharma texts relative to the muNDaka upanishad is debatable. So also with respect to the sAMkhya-yoga elements in the Mahabharata, which are derived from the early upanishads.] > >2. FIFTH ADHYAYA-THIRD BRAHMANA which talks about the word "satyA" being >made of three syllables. Two truths "sa" and "ya" and separated by the >untruth "ti". 1. satya, not satyA. Similarly, prANa - not prANA, apAna - not apAnA, and so on, veda - not vedA, yoga - not yogA ..., unless your transliteration scheme is quite different. I see no reason to dIrgha-fy all terminal akAra-s, in spite of a common problem in modern pronunciation. 2. sa-ti-yam is in the fifth adhyAya, FIFTH brAhmaNa. In the fifth adhyAya's third brAhmaNa of the bRhadAraNyaka, the word analyzed is hRdaya, not satya. These text divisions are for the kANva pATha. mAdhyandina numbers differ. Also compare chAndogya 8. 3. 5, and see this list's archives from Oct. 1997, for a long discussion of this reference. 3. There are some 1001 things described in the upanishads. Not everything leads back to the paramArtha-vyavahAra divide, and Sankara's explanation of sa-ti-ya is straightforward, in both the bRhadAraNyaka and chAndogya references. 4. Finally, advaita is not my personal property. Others are free to arrive at it for their own reasons or to differ from it for their own reasons. Best regards, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Dec 21 00:14:52 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 00:14:52 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065759.23782.5790253350373444915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satya Upadhya wrote: > By "they", you are referring to S.N. Dasgupta (see his "Indian > idealism" and the 1st vol. of his "History of Indian Philosophy); D.P. > Chattopadhyaya (see his "What is living and what is dead in Indian > Philosophy"); Satkari Mookherjee (see the "Nana-nalanda Mahavira Research > Publications 1957" (of which he is editor); and also his "Budhist Philosophy > of Universal Flux"); Stcherbatsky (see his "Conception of Budhist Nirvana > and "Budhist Logic"); and also, with some reservations, S.Radhakrishnan > (2nd vol. of his "Indian Philosophy") and B.N.K. Sharma (see the 1st vol. of > his "History of Dvaita school of Vedanta and its literature"). I am sure > there are other scholars who have drawn similar conclusions; this is just a > prelimnary list. As far as I can see, the scholars you mention, eminent though they may be, are not very recent -- Buddhist studies have moved on somewhat since the 1960s -- for example, Stcherbatsky is considered "an important pioneer" (a polite way of saying he is largely out of date in his interpretations. I think you will not find many of your other scholars cited in bibliographies for academic studies of Buddhism these days. I cannot comment on Vidyasankar Sundaresan's statements about Vedaanta but what he says makes very good sense from the Buddhist view of this matter. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Wed Dec 20 23:26:45 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 00:26:45 +0100 Subject: Origins of the "double truth" Message-ID: <161227065750.23782.10299553259447745000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, Steve Farmer wrote: my original post also pointed to > extensive examples from Islamic and European thought, in which > Buddhist contact could hardly be a factor. Many other examples > could also be given from Daoist or Shinto or Jewish scholastic > traditions. The point is that there is no need to point to a > privileged tradition (e.g., Buddhism) to explain the "double > truth," which existed in countless variant forms in Eurasian > manuscript traditions. Buddhist thought was known in the Near East and among Greek speakers everywhere, at least from the time of Alexander the Great. In Antioch and Alexandria, Buddhist traders and visitors would have had ample opportunity to discuss philosophy withs Greeks. The Jatakas were obviously known in the Near East. There were Indians living in Alexandria in Trajans time. Apollonius of Tyana (c. 50 AD) studied Indian philosophy at Taxila. St. Hippolytus of Rome (second century AD) found it necessary to refute the ideas of "Brahmanes" in his KATA PASON HAIRESEON ELENKHOS. Clement of Alexandria (150-218 AD) mentioned Buddha by name. Bardesanes wrote a book in the third century AD where he described a Buddhist monastery. Plotinus was interested in Vedanta philosophy and yoga, reflected in his writings. John of Damascus retold a Buddhist story in the eight century, etc. etc. There is, of course, no need to point to a privileged tradition, but on the other hand, a Buddhist or Indian origin of the idea cannot be ruled out by pointing to superficially similar ideas elsewhere (at a later time). From a Buddhist standpoint, it might not be a question of "two truths" in any western meaning, but rather two ways of perceiving phenomena - either accepting them as "real" and suffer, or meditate upon emptiness until they become "unreal". In Buddhism, the only "truth" that matters is the Path. Shantideva says that those who wish to "pacify suffering", should "generate" the wisdom of emptiness through meditation. It is this insistence upon meditation that makes the idea specifically Indian, I believe. This is very different from scholastic ways of harmonizing manuscript traditions. Buddhist thought is much deeper than anything I have met elsewhere. Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 21 00:36:02 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 00:36:02 +0000 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065766.23782.18350546682096413182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Thus the food you eat exists at >the level of "vyahvarika satya", but at the higher metaphysical level >("parmarthika satya") it is just a phantom conjured up by mortal >illusion, according to both the Advaita Vedantists and the Mahayana >Budhists. Sorry, you have completely misunderstood Advaita Vedantists. At the paramArtha level, there is no you, there is no food, there is no eating, there is no phantom, there is no mortal, there is no illusion and there is no conjuring. I will keep quiet about whether you have properly understood Mahayana Buddhists in this regard, as I see more competent Buddhism scholars responding in this thread. I hope your interest in comparison goes a little beyond the most superficial of such judgments. Also, please be a wee bit careful with words like mortal, phantom and illusion. Both advaita and madhyamaka have a lot to say about appearance and reality, and they don't always say the same things, no matter how big an army of 19th-20th century scholars says otherwise. In another post, you refer to Dasgupta, Chattopadhyaya, B. N. K. Sharma, S. Radhakrishnan and others. Radhakrishnan was a very great scholar, but in my opinion, he is mistaken in his descriptions of Mahayana schools as accepting an Absolutism. I think a number of more up to date scholars would agree with me here. He is also sometimes over-eager in wanting to see the same thing in every thinker, from Socrates to Hegel and Marx in the West, and from Yajnavalkya and Lao-Tzu to Madhva in the East. B. N. K. Sharma is also a great scholar, but he is only interested in proving at every turn that Madhva was right and all others were wrong. He is hardly fair towards either Advaita or Buddhism. Dasgupta and Chattopadhyaya have their own biases. I know I can't get rid of all my biases, and you can't get rid of yours, but I don't see why we should inherit and hold on to the biases of everyone from the past. A good book to renew one's acquaintance with these traditions is J. N. Mohanty's _Classical Indian Philosophy_, Rowman and Littlefield Publishers, Lanham, Maryland, 2000 (Indian author, but writing in the USA, cf. my comment about quality). I join you in hoping that Hindu schools from Carvaka to Navya- Nyaya are treated fairly, and not just Advaita Vedanta. The first step towards this would be to fearlessly question our predecessors, no matter how eminent they may have been. I agree these issues are worth investigating, but I would hope that conclusions are drawn *after* careful comparisons of the sources. We live in democracies, but I think philosophical questions are not decided by majority vote. And I can only say that in the 21st century, one need not rely solely on Thibaut's translation of Sankara and Muller's translation of the Upanishads. There is much to be said for revisiting the original texts. Otherwise, you are stuck with 19th cent. judgments of texts from the 2nd to 10th centuries. While we still have the originals, why not examine them afresh? >1. Vijananabhikshu, who coins the phrase "pracchanna baudha" to ... >2. Madhva on Brahma Sutra ii.2.29, when he says that the Brahman of ... >3. Parthasarathi Mishra [the famous commentator on Kumarila] in >Sastra-dipika, Nir.ed. pg. 111; and Jayanta Bhatta in Nyayamanjari, The Madhyamaka and the Advaita Vedanta both stand alone in their respective traditions, but that does not mean the two always stand together, no matter what other authors say as part of polemics. Unlike a large number of recent Indian scholars who see Vedanta in Buddhism, these older authors see Buddhism in Advaita Vedanta. I challenge both kinds of views. One of the authors you name is a Samkhya-Yoga-Vedanta syncretist, another is a Dvaita Vedantin, a third a Mimamsaka and the fourth a Naiyayika. Each one has a different reason. English off, Sanskrit on - eteshu kim AptavacanaM bhavate? kim anena saMkhyA-gauraveNa paramata-granthakArANAM? >4. From the Advaita point of view, Sriharsa frankly acknowledges his >indebtedness to the sunyavadis [Madhyamikas]. zrIharshasya vitaNDA-vAdaM tu nAgArjuna-vAdam iva bhAtIti zrIharsheNaiva svIkRtam | yady apy evaM, tathApi nAgArjuna- mate param ekam advaitaM brahma sarvapratyayAdhishThAnam na siddham iti sa eva zriharsho vadatIti na vismartavyam | tataH kim? gauDapAdA api vadanti, "vijneyAny agrayANata" iti (kArikA 4. 90) | "paramatam apratishiddham anumatam bhavati" iti brahmasUtra-bhAshyakArasya nyAyaH (BS 2. 4. 12) | advaita -vedAnta-dRshTyA tu paramatam yenAMzena na virudhyate tena ishTam eva bhavati (BS 2. 1. 3) | sAMkhya-yoga-smRtIn praty eva, na madhyamaka-mataM praty ayam nyAya iti cen na | aMzena- abhyupagamane tu sarvAn paramatAn prati samAna-nyAyas sAdhuH | vijnAnavAdaM-praty advaita-vedAntoktir bhagavad-gItA-bhAshye (BG 18. 50) spashTam | yatra virodhAbhAvas tatra bhedAbhAva iva bhavati | yatra tu virodho 'sty eva, tatraikAtmyaM katham? iti, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From giravani at JUNO.COM Thu Dec 21 03:50:40 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 03:50:40 +0000 Subject: Dravidian origins and twist of the destiny Message-ID: <161227065770.23782.9777786802493350634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read the article"Pre-rigvedic convergence between Indo-Aryan and Dravidian? A survey of issues and controversies" by Dr.H.H.Hock. This is a high level research article with balanced reasoning. It proposes "Convergence Hypothesis" as opposed to much touted "Subversion Hypothesis". The whole volume"Ideology and Status of Sanskrit"edited by J.E.M. Houben is worth reading.If anybody looking for direct answer to Dravidian origins, he may not find it here.However one immediately realizes that certain theories based on linguistic research in connection with pre-history of India are not without controversies. They are not black(Dravidian)and white (Aryan) truths as projected often in popular publications.The Dravidian origin in Central Asia is also a theory without archaeological evidence. It is now clear that Aryas, Dasas and Dasyus form one group and Dravidians(if any) were separate from them. They could be the existing Indians the new group might had come across.If Aryas came on the horses,then Dravidians had elephants to fight with them. The Persiam emperor Darius the Great(522-486 BCE)was interested in recruiting Indian elephants in his army. If elephants were in India in 5th century BCE, then they were there in 1000 BCE with their Dravidian mahouts to charge them on invading Aryans.How funny it looks when one thinks of Aryans clearing forests with their Iron weapons and Dravidians watching with their elephants.The English word "Afro- Americans" means Americans of African origins.The word "Indo-Europeans" should mean the ancient Europeans of the Indian origins.But it underwent semantic reversal in the Indian sub-continent.Dr.S.K.Chatterji told Hindus that they were mild diluted brothers(Indians of European origins)of the aggressive pure white European Aryans(p.32,Indo-Aryan and Hindi, 1969). Before the discovery of Sanskrit by Europeans in 1785 AD,Indian grammarians knew the language with Vedic and Laukik words. After 1785, the great grand mother(Proto-Indo-European) of Sanskrit and the great grand mother (Proto- Dravidian)of Tamil were born in alien lands. Instead of people giving birth to languages, under the influence of European scholarship, languages gave birth to the unknown people named Aryans and Dravidians within the sub- continent. Strange indeed! After the semantic reversal, locked up linguistics and hijacked history,appeared the twist of the destiny. BhasmAsura of Aryan father and Dravidian mother created for the sub- continent turned to Europe and devoured the very people from whom their Messiah came to save them. From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Thu Dec 21 05:16:02 2000 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 05:16:02 +0000 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065772.23782.9020788234566471066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in various meanings of "aalambana". Monier-Williams gives as one of possible renderings: aalambana 153.2 the natural and necessary connection of a sensation with the cause which excites it (Saahitya-Darpa.na) This meaning is the same as used in Yoga-Suutra (at least, as I understand it). How close to this meaning is the use of "aalambana" in aalambana-parik.sa? Best regards, Dmitri. From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Wed Dec 20 21:42:37 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 05:42:37 +0800 Subject: Re. Chain letters in pre-modern India In-Reply-To: <20001220182705.17849.qmail@web1006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065734.23782.4136737838374933850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> Whether it worked or not depends largely on the faith of the devotee/votary/aspirant. But, unlike modern chains, nowhere in the Mahayana sutras do we have the deadly negative impact of what happens if we don't read/recite/write...point to ponder! Radhika -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Ven. Tantra Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 2:27 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re. Chain letters in pre-modern India <> This frequently occurs in devotional Mahayana sutras; i.e., claims of inestimable merits resulting from expounding respective texts. Even the Diamond Sutra (vajracchedika-prajna-paramita) affirms that those who are able to receive, hold in mind, read, recite and expound it widely to others will achieve inexpressible and inconceivable merits without measure or limit. This has long been an impetus for vigorous re-print and free-distribution activities particularly among the Chinese, from ancient times to today. Spread the word. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From MathiasMetzger at AOL.COM Thu Dec 21 13:11:47 2000 From: MathiasMetzger at AOL.COM (Mathias Metzger) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 08:11:47 -0500 Subject: codes Message-ID: <161227065782.23782.4028127386746763011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While collecting material for my yet to be published doctoral thesis on the language of diplomatic correspondence in Rajasthan I have come across lots of documents from the 17th and 18th century AD which are encoded. The codes used show varying degrees of sophistication. I have dealt with this in a (sorry!) yet to be published article on the scripts used in those diplomatic letters. If you are interested feel free to contact me. NB: The documents are NOT written in Sanskrit but in Hindi or Rajasthani Best wishes Mathias Metzger PS: I'd also like to learn what Allen Thrasher has collected on that issue. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 21 09:37:07 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 09:37:07 +0000 Subject: Chain letters in pre-modern India (fwd) Message-ID: <161227065774.23782.2772238880895239142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:43:26 -0800 From: VanArsdale To: hansen at indiana.edu, folklore at lists.colorado.edu, wce2 at psu.edu, AEM at psulias.psu.edu, Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: Chain letters in pre-modern India Dear Mr. Wujastyk & list, Thank you for giving the link to "Chain Letter Evolution" in your post to the Indology list. There is a section in this titled: 4.1 PREDECESSORS Ancient documents that advocate their own perpetuation. The Letters from Heaven. Transitions to chain letters. which may accessed directly via: http://www.silcom.com/~barnowl/clevo/start.htm#s4-1 Three early examples from Buddhist literature are mentioned briefly, including a Japanese text from 764-770 CE. An interesting feature of your example is the use of a "copy quota," in this case eight copies. In the link I give an example from India (Shahabad) which dates from 1893 and asks for five copies. A US charity chain letter from 1889 asks for ten copies. These are the earliest known examples of a copy quota, unless yours is earlier. I would like to know if this is the case, and if so be provided a reference to use for an addition to Chain Letter Evolution. We are all so familiar with modern chain letters that it is difficult to realize that asking that a fixed number of copies be sent was a bold innovation. Keeping the number open might seem more productive, as did the prior "Letters from Heaven." The next innovation was the setting of a deadline to complete this task. The first known appearance of this is from a 1902 "prayer chain" protesting sabbath violations. It asked for seven copies in seven days, which suggests a commemoration of the revered seven day interval, rather than a conscious intent to increase replication. As for the addition of an appeal for replication to the end of an existing document, examples range from the NT book of Mark to jokes on the Internet. Chain letters themselves may have developed from such entreaties added to prayers (Letters from Heaven). Probably during 1880 - 1905 the prayers shrank down to a single leading sentence in chain letters, and were eventually deleted or secularized (e.g. "With love all things are possible.") I have been informed that chain letters are common in India, and have an example in English from 1996 (with Sai Baba devotional images). One USENET informer told me that there is a money chain letter in India that asks that a hundred copies be made, and contains threats for non-compliance. No threats have ever appeared on US money chain letters (they started in the US in 1935). I will soon place a "paper chain letter archive" on the WWW, starting with over 200 dated examples (mostly English). I would greatly appreciate if any reader can assist in locating examples of dated paper chain letters, past or present, from any country. Thank you, Daniel VanArsdale PO Box 2335 Lompoc, CA 93438 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Dec 21 10:04:54 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 10:04:54 +0000 Subject: codes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065776.23782.9095979072575399932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > I have collected a number of articles on cryptographic phenomena in > India, most not specifically on Sanskrit. I will try to put together > a bibliography early in the new year. Would anyone be interested in > mounting it if I do? Sure, Allen, just send it along and I'll put it up on the INDOLOGY website. Happy Christmas, Domini From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Thu Dec 21 02:22:34 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 10:22:34 +0800 Subject: Devaraja In-Reply-To: <63.f21edf1.276c71a3@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227065768.23782.1610792382555068777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> tiruvuTai man2n2araik kANil tirumAlaik kaNTEn2E en2n2um uruvuTai vaNNaGkaL kANil ulakaLantAn2 en2Ru tuLLum karuvuTait tEvilkaL ellAm kaTalvaNNan2 kOyilE en2n2um veruvilum vIzvilum kaNNan2 kazalkaL virumpumE>> Thank you Palaniappan, I stand corrected. Thanks too for the ref. it makes so much sense, considering the latest theory that Janaganamana was written by Tagore in praise of the British monarchy, rather than India, the Motherland! Godking concept revisited! ---Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 3:20 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Devaraja In a message dated 12/15/2000 6:40:15 PM Central Standard Time, rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG writes: > "Tiruvutal Mannare kaanal Tirumale Enrum" is > a famous Tamil eulogy to sing the praise of the king as "Seeing the king > walking is like seeing Vishnu walking". This is not really a Tamil eulogy to sing the praise of the king. The correct version of the above line is part of tiruvAymozi 4.4.8 of nammAzvAr. tiruvuTai man2n2araik kANil tirumAlaik kaNTEn2E en2n2um uruvuTai vaNNaGkaL kANil ulakaLantAn2 en2Ru tuLLum karuvuTait tEvilkaL ellAm kaTalvaNNan2 kOyilE en2n2um veruvilum vIzvilum kaNNan2 kazalkaL virumpumE The poem follows the CT model of a mother's utterance about her daughter's love for the hero who is tirumAl/viSNu here. What should interest Radhika Srinivasan is not the first line but the third line and the use of tEvil and kOyil. Also to be considered are the etymologies of iRaivan2 and kaTavuL. Regards S. Palaniappan From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Thu Dec 21 11:19:32 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 11:19:32 +0000 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065778.23782.4466446134692145041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:13:53 -0800, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: >SM>> Sanskrit persists in the pop culture of Europe, To check with >SM>> the situation on the ground in India Dravidian studies with instituitional >SM>> support will help, but those endowments are very rare. > >Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote: >>Why look for presumably western endowments.? >>. .. why depend upon western endownments? > > There is no mention of "western" endowments, funds can come from > east (eg. Japan or India) or west for Dravidology studies, we > don't mind. > >Several months before you started writing in the list, >the list founder forwarded a request for for funds >from you. Seeking support for Dravidian studies is no different. Yes, I forwarded a request because my PC did not allow me to post mesages for a long time. This shows the vast difference between the support for Sanskrit studies and Tamil and Dravidian studies. Even the few Sanskrit colleges in Tamilnadu founded more than hundred years ago was to close a few months back due to lack of funds; I have not kept track of subsequently what happened. The sanskrit varsity in Kerala has got as it's new chief (K.M.Pakikkar), who, the reports say, does not have any scholarsip in sanskrit and well past the age of retirement and as been given the sinecure job as a political reward. The study of sanskrit is dying in India - in Tamilnadu definitely- due to lack of funds, falling patronage ,waning interest and lack of career oppurtunities. Creative work in six darshanas, etc and bring it upto date within a global context remains is beyond even day dreaming In contrast, Tamil and dravidian studies have been supported to the hilt by a general public and successive governmnets committed just for the cause of Tamil maintanance. That is why I was surprised when you ask for endowments for Dravidian studies when there is a groundswell of public and government support for just that. When even individual corruption scandals and embezzlement charges in Tamilnadu run to the tune of $$s of hundreds of millions, can't a few million $$s be diverted from personal and state coffers from allegedly committed cultural and political groups whose motto was "Thamizhe uyir" viz Tamil is (our) life. This discussion also provides me the right pretext for bemoaning about a lack of linguistic skills and interest among Indians who are loud about 'Dravidian' studies. I have not come across a single Tamil who knows say about 4'dravidian' languages in depth at any level of knowledge. Western Indologists like Witzel or Zydenbos have indpeth fluency in a number of European languages and a number of "aryan" languages and for all I know other asian languages. How many dravidianists in India and Tamilnadu have as much knowledge of say Kannada as Tamil.? or do they have command, fluency in other dravidan languages like Brahui? For the shouting from rooftops about "Dravidian" languages has anyone published Kannada-Brahui dictionary or Tamil-Malto dict? Is there Tamil - Gond dictionary? All we have DED and what has been the contribution of Indian scholars in it? beyond DED does any Tamil know other 'dravidian' languages? At the moment 'dravidian' research means how sanskrit words are derived from Tamil words - how 'siva' is basically a Tamil word, etc. Even without knowing Gond ( as far as I can see), some people have started claiming "Dravidian ethnicity" of Gonds. In other words 'Dravidian' interests in India is an expresion of linguistic narcissm with a large political bias > >Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote: >>You are calling them Dravidian tribes, but they themselves don't use the >>word and not even aware of it. In fact even South Indian were not aware that >>till Padiri Caldwell introduced the term. Even then there were riots against >>the Reverend's theories. That was how the tamils received 'Dravidian >>ethnics' theory- with hostility. > > You wrote about "Padiri" Caldwell, and the hostility and riots against > the Reverend's theories. Is this so? Where can i read about them? > >Regards, >SM I have seen in mentioned in Eugene Irschilk's 'Politics and Social Conflict in South India'- It will be a few days before I lay my hands on my books, then I can give page no. etc From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Thu Dec 21 13:10:08 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 13:10:08 +0000 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065781.23782.9552246447416483111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:13:53 -0800, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: >SM>> Sanskrit persists in the pop culture of Europe, To check with >SM>> the situation on the ground in India Dravidian studies with instituitional >SM>> support will help, but those endowments are very rare. > >Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote: >>Why look for presumably western endowments.? >>. .. why depend upon western endownments? > > There is no mention of "western" endowments, funds can come from > east (eg. Japan or India) or west for Dravidology studies, we > don't mind. > >Several months before you started writing in the list, >the list founder forwarded a request for for funds >from you. Seeking support for Dravidian studies is no different. Yes, I forwarded a request because my PC did not allow me to post mesages for a long time. This shows the vast difference between the support for Sanskrit studies and Tamil and Dravidian studies. Even the few Sanskrit colleges in Tamilnadu founded more than hundred years ago was to close a few months back due to lack of funds; I have not kept track of subsequently what happened. The sanskrit varsity in Kerala has got as it's new chief (K.M.Pakikkar), who, the reports say, does not have any scholarsip in sanskrit, well past the age of retirement, whose idea of Sanskrit works is of superstitious ravings of aryan racists and has been given the sinecure job as a political reward. The study of sanskrit is dying in India - in Tamilnadu definitely- due to lack of funds, falling patronage ,waning interest and lack of career oppurtunities. Creative work in six darshanas, etc and bring it upto date within a global context remains is beyond even day dreaming In contrast, Tamil and dravidian studies have been supported to the hilt by a general public and successive governmnets committed just for the cause of Tamil maintanance. That is why I was surprised when you ask for endowments for Dravidian studies when there is a groundswell of public and government support for just that. When even individual corruption scandals and embezzlement charges in Tamilnadu run to the tune of $$s of hundreds of millions, can't a few million $$s be diverted from personal and state coffers from allegedly committed cultural and political groups whose motto was "Thamizhe uyir" viz Tamil is (our) life. This discussion also provides me the right pretext for bemoaning about a lack of linguistic skills and interest among Indians who are loud about 'Dravidian' studies. I have not come across a single Tamil who knows say about 4'dravidian' languages in depth at any level of knowledge. Western Indologists like Witzel or Zydenbos have indpeth fluency in a number of European languages and a number of "aryan" languages and for all I know other asian languages. How many dravidianists in India and Tamilnadu have as much knowledge of say Kannada as Tamil.? or do they have command, fluency in other dravidan languages like Brahui? For all the shouting from rooftops about "Dravidian" languages, has anyone published Kannada-Brahui dictionary or Tamil-Malto dict? All we have DED and what has been the contribution of Indian scholars in it? beyond DED does any Tamil know other 'dravidian' languages? At the moment 'dravidian' research means how sanskrit words are derived from Tamil words. It is for making ethnic claims on Gonds even without knowing Gondi or having lived there. In other words, Dravidianism is at present Tamil glorification by other means without taking true interest in other languages. >>In fact even South Indian were not aware that >>till Padiri Caldwell introduced the term. Even then there were riots against >>the Reverend's theories. That was how the tamils received 'Dravidian >>ethnics' theory- with hostility. > > You wrote about "Padiri" Caldwell, and the hostility and riots against > the Reverend's theories. Is this so? Where can i read about them? > >Regards, >SM I have seen it in Eugene Irschilk's 'Politics and Social Conflict in South India'. When I am able to lay hands on my books in a few days time, I can give more reference From indological at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 21 15:19:01 2000 From: indological at HOTMAIL.COM (harsh v. singh) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 15:19:01 +0000 Subject: indological catalogue 2001 Message-ID: <161227065786.23782.4501129496536600282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear Indologists, We at Indologicaol Book house have been in the field of publishing books by world reknown authors. Kindly write to us for our free Indological Catalogue 2001 which has been prepared subject wise, making it easier for you to find the books of your choice. The catalogue could be send as an E-mail attachment or by post. We cover almost all subjects related to Indology. Thanking you yours truly, G. Singh Indological Book House 42-43 U.B. Jawahar Nagar Post box No. 2165 Delhi 110007 India _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From giravani at JUNO.COM Thu Dec 21 16:09:20 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 16:09:20 +0000 Subject: The word "NArAyaNa" Message-ID: <161227065788.23782.10959470489119316522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There was discussion on the origin of the word "NArAyaNA".I believe the component "ayana" from the word "NArAyaNA" has the same meaning (amplitude of cyclical excursions)in other words. Here are examples: 1)SvAyana(Sva+Ayana)=spin 2)Samayana(Sam+ )=synchronizing 3)Aayana(Aa+ )=excursion to this side 4)Vyayana(Vi+ayana)=excusion to other(or opposite) side 5)SAyana(Sa+ )=with Ayana degrees (~23.5) 6)Nirayana(Ni.h+ )=without Ayana degrees 7)UttarAyaNa=excursion to north 8)DaxiNAyaNa=excursion to south 9)Udayana(Ut+ )=rising 10)AstAyana(Asta+ )=setting 11)Anvayana(Anu+ )=syntaxing 12)Pratyayana(Prati+ )=process of attaching "Pratyaya" 13)UpAyana(Upa+ )=extended ayana 14)ApAyana(Apa+ )=shorted ayana 15)AvAyana(Ava+ )=localized ayana 16)ParAyaNa(Para+ )=beyond normal amplitude,well trained 17)PArAyaNa(PAra+ )=repeat from one end to other 18)Cayana(C+ )=chewing 19)Dayana(D+ )=diving 20)Nayana(N+ )=navigating 21)Valayana(Val+ )=coiling like a mechanical spring 22)Layana(L+ )=decrease in amplitude 23)Shayana(Sh+ )=go to bed 24)DanAyana(Dhana+ )=anion 25)>RiNAyaNA(>RiNa+ )=cation 26)RasAyana(Rasa+ )=ionized solution 27)RAmAyaNA(RAma+ )=RAma went to LankA and returned to AyodhA. 28)KrishNAyana-Unfortunately it did not happen. He did not come back to MathurA. The pair Nara(Human being) and NArAyaNA(The GOD)occurs in the ancient scriptures of India. Does the component "Ayana"has similar meaning in the word "NArAYaNa". Does not Nara try repeated excursions before he reaches NArAyaNa? Long ago I was afraid that one day a linguistic scholar will write an article telling that originally the word was "FArAyaNa" in some proto-language. Now I know at least in the past 4000 years (2500 yrs of known history+1500 yrs before that when Aryan-Dravidian handshake took place)my name "NArAyaNA" remained unchanged against the onslaught of the linguistic entropy.Thanks. From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Fri Dec 22 15:16:08 2000 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 07:16:08 -0800 Subject: H.C. Bhayani Message-ID: <161227065792.23782.14364434597916682906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been travelling and hence unable to check my e-mail regularly or frequently. I do not know if the following sad news has been brought to the attention of Indologists. I recently learned in a telephone conversation with Mr. Utpal Bhayani that his father Professor Harivallabh C. Bhayani, the doyen of Prakrit, Apabhra.m;sa and Early New Indo-Aryan scholars in India, passed away on 11 November 2000 at Mumbai. Born on 26 May 1917, Professor Bhayani had been suffering for the last 2-3 years from occasional illnesses. However, his pursuit of scholarship continued undiminished almost until the end of his life. Those who were fortunate enough to know this highly gifted and yet very modest scholar could not but be impressed by his genial personality and pleasant speech. I for one made it point to see him whenever I happened to be in Ahmedabad. His wide reading and ability to relate to scholars of all ages impressed me in all the meetings I had with him. He is survived by his wife and his son Utpal Bhayani, who can be contacted at 12 Madhuvan Society, 81 Sarasvati Rd., Santacruz (West), Mumbai 400 054, telephone (022) 649-0575. E-mail: ashok aklujkar From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Thu Dec 21 20:20:22 2000 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard B Mahoney) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 09:20:22 +1300 Subject: Devnag for MacOS Message-ID: <161227065790.23782.7227889150267650120.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Readers, This news from comp.text.tex may be of special interest to some of you. The original poster -- Reinhard Zierke -- has permitted it to be forwarded to this list. May I also wish you all a pleasant break. Many regards, Richard Mahoney ***** Forwarded message from Bernard Desgraupes ***** I have uploaded in the incoming directory an archive I'd like to submit for insertion in the CTAN. It is a port to the Macintosh of the devnag program a preprocessor which is part of the Devanagari package (in /tex-archive/language/devanagari/distrib/). It will allow people working under MacOS to use the Devanagari package : so far the preprocessor had not been ported to this platform. It is entirely GPL free software. This port has been tested and showed to the authors and maintainers of the devanagari package (Velthuis and Pr John Smith). Pr Smith suggested me to submit it to CTAN. I guess the best location where to put it should be in /tex-archive/language/devanagari/contrib/ I have made the C source files of this port available in the "MacDevnag_src" subfolder. It is up to you to decide if they should be put on CTAN to. Everything can be found on my personal Web page : http://perso.easynet.fr/~berdesg/macdevnag.html There is also a subfloder called "For Alpha" containing Tcl resources for people working with the Alpha Latex Editor : they can drive MacDevnag directly from within Alpha. Contents of the archive (MacDevnag.sit.hqx 199k): [snip] ***** End forwarded message ***** Thanks four your submission. I installed it on ftp.dante.de in CTAN:/tex-archive/language/devanagari/contrib/MacDevnag together with the contents of your mail as README file. It will soon be copied to the other CTAN nodes and mirrors. Reinhard Zierke for the CTAN team -- end ====================================================================== Richard Mahoney Telephone: +64-3-351-5831 78 Jeffreys Rd Christchurch NEW ZEALAND mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Dec 22 19:31:09 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 11:31:09 -0800 Subject: Origins of the "double truth" Message-ID: <161227065800.23782.4944241179814965400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bjarte Kaldhol writes on the origins of the "double truth": > There is, of course, no need to point to a privileged tradition, but on the > other hand, a Buddhist or Indian origin of the idea cannot be ruled out by > pointing to superficially similar ideas elsewhere (at a later time). The resemblances are not superficial and are not all from later periods. See my last post for examples. > From a > Buddhist standpoint, it might not be a question of "two truths" in any > western meaning, but rather two ways of perceiving phenomena - either > accepting them as "real" and suffer, or meditate upon emptiness until they > become "unreal". Your suggestion that there is some peculiarly "western" (as opposed to "Indian"?) meaning of "truth" is a remnant of old romantic ideas about the "wisdom of the East." I don't see a great divide here. > In Buddhism, the only "truth" that matters is the Path. > Shantideva says that those who wish to "pacify suffering", should > "generate" the wisdom of emptiness through meditation. It is this > insistence upon meditation that makes the idea specifically Indian, I > believe. This is very different from scholastic ways of harmonizing > manuscript traditions. Go back and read the Stoics or Epicureans or Daoists for many parallels. Followed by the kicker: > Buddhist thought is much deeper than anything I have > met elsewhere. No comment needed. My best, Steve Farmer From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 22 20:13:53 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 12:13:53 -0800 Subject: Chain letters in pre-modern India Message-ID: <161227065798.23782.11714089793814806765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While the oldest missionary religion Buddhism may have liked to spread the Word and lay Jains pay big money to publish Jain books, the evidence from "Hindu" sects is NOT to spread the word. Vedas are not taught to everyone, tamil maRai 'secret' = veda. Zvelebil's Poets of the Powers book teaches how secretive are tamil Siddha tradition. Joseph Campbell has said "You ask. I teach." is the way of India, and voluntarily, spreading religious knowledge/lore was not the norm. Preachings for the purposes of conversion was very rare in India. --- Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I happened to be reading the Sankastanasanastotra the other day, in the > Brhatstotraratnakara, and I came across the following final statement > (Velthuis coding): > > a.stabhyo braahma.nebhya"sca likhitvaa ya.h samarpayet | > tasya vidyaa bhavetsarvaa ga.ne"sasya prasaadata.h || 8|| > > "Someone who writes this and sends it to eight Brahmanas will gain all the > sciences, by the grace of Ganesa." > > I have no idea about the date of this Ganesa stotra. But this must be a > fairly early example of an attempt to start a chain letter. Is there any > evidence that it worked? Are there other examples? > > Some MSS of this text attribute it to the Padmapurana. But there seems to > be a version with only five verses, which doesn't include the exhortation > in v.8 of the BSR version. So there may be added question of when verse 8 > got pasted on to the end of the stotra. > > The http://www.silcom.com/~barnowl/clevo/start.htm site says that evidence > of chain letters before 1910 is sparse. > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vraja at WEST.NET Fri Dec 22 20:15:35 2000 From: vraja at WEST.NET (Pravrajika Vrajaprana) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 12:15:35 -0800 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065794.23782.8336364314777309476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Honey, have you seen this? It's fascinating! EL, k >This is a reply to Steve Farmer: > >My views are principally based on the writings of D.P. Chattopadhyaya, >S.N.Dasgupta, Stcherbatsky, and others. I would suggest you read Dasgupta's >"Indian idealism", and "History of Indian Philosophy vol.1", and >Chattopadhyaya's "What is living and what is dead in Indian Philosophy" for >a detailed account on this matter. > >Further, i find it strange that the Advaitists have been accused of >surreptiously borrowing ideas from the Budhists by other Vedantists (in >particular the Dvaitists, but also the Visistadvaitists and others) and by >other Indian philosophers. >For an extremely hostile attack on the Advaitists by the Dvaita Vedantists >(on the grounds of their borrowing ideas from the Budhists), kindly see >Encyclopaediea of Religion and Ethics vol.8, pg. 232-233. The views in the >Encylopaedia are primarily based on two Dvaita texts--"Madhvavijaya"(Mv), >and "Manimanjari"(Mm), both of which were written by Narayana, a son of >Trivikrama, who was a direct disciple of Madhva. I am giving a few extracts >from the Encyclopaedia here(copious references to the original texts are >given at the end of almost every sentence in the encyclopaedia; i am not >giving all the references): > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the Vana-parvana(Mm iii.11,661f.)it is related that Bhima attacked >certain Yaksas or Raksasas, belonging to the country beyond the Himalya, and >killed their leader,Manimat.Manimat had earlier offerred a filthy insult to >the Indian sage Agastya (the apostle of Southern India)....The narrative of >the events in the Kaliyuga, or present age of the world, commences in the >5th sarga of Mm. At first, the knowledge of the Vedas, as taught by Krsna >and Bhima(Mm v.1), reigns supereme. Then the Asuras conspired to spread >false doctrines. The demon Sakuni...points out that other heresies...had all >failed (9-15). Therefore Manimat, who alone had enough skill, must become >incarnate as a Brahman ascetic, and must destroy the Vedanta under cover of >explaining it (15ff.). Manimat is dispatched with instructions to abolish >the Vedas and Puranas, to ridicule the theory that Visnu has gunas, or >qualities, and to establish the identity of the soul with Brahman. [note >that, according to Dvaita, Brahman is endowed with all the auspicious >attributes ("saguna"), while according to Advaita, Brahmana is devoid of any >attributes ("nirguna")--Satya] > >Here (29), the story digresses to tell how at that time the whole Earth was >under the sway of Budhism, and to describe the sway of Budhism, and to >describe the efforts of Sabara and Kumarila to refute it by the aid of the >Purva Mimansa.... The 6th sarga continues this, narrating the success of >Kumarila... >At this stage of affairs, Manimat is born as a widow's bastard (Mm v1.3, Mv >i.46). He is hence named Samkara (the Madhva books uniformly change the >great Samkara's[represented in the Encyclopaedia with a dot over the >S--Satya] name to Samkara [no dot over the S-Satya])The object is plain. >Samkara [with dot over the S] means "auspicious", but Samkara [with no dot] >"misbegotten" or "rubbish". >He is brought up in great poverty, and (as a slap at the monism subsequently >taught by him), it is related that in his boyhood he could count only one >thing at a time, never being able to see a second(Mm, v1.10).He is taken to >Saurastra, where...he quickly masters the sacred books. He then goes from >teacher to teacher, but is turned off by them for his heretical views. He >invents his doctrine, described as "sunya-marga" and "nirgunatva" and is >hailed by the demons as their savior (24).On their advice he joins the >Budhists and teaches Budhism under cover of Vedantism. He makes the Vedas >without meaning, and equates Brahman with nothingness ("sunyatva") (46).He >becomes a Sakta, and messenger of Bhairavi, who confers upon him a magic >spell (51). > >The 7th sarga describes further disgraceful events in Sanmkara's life. He >seduces the wife of his Brahman host (1ff.). He makes converts by magic >arts. He falls sick and dies. His last words are instructions to his >disciples to uproot the learned Satyaprajna, the last of the great teachers >of the Vedic doctrine. > >In the 8th sarga we have the doings of Samkara's followers. They persecute >their opponents, burning down monasteries, destroying cattle-pens, and by >magic arts killing women and children (2). They forcibly convert one of >their chief opponents, Prajnatirtha, and compel him and his disciples to >adopt the "Maya" system (5). These, however, still secretly adhere to the >true religion.... > >...The book[Mm] ends with a brief account of Madhva's work, specially >mentioning that he composed a commentary on the "Vedanta-sutra" utterly >destroying that made by the thief Manimat-Samkara. > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >If you were a little taken aback by the above, please know that i was >personally flabbergasted when i came across this. > >-Satya > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Dec 22 19:30:27 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 14:30:27 -0500 Subject: VaMza BrAhmaNa Message-ID: <161227065810.23782.10362363644732213182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This should have turned up on OCLC, which shows the US has 4 copies, at Berkeley, Chicago, Harvard, and Cleveland Public. The Library of Congress has a copy which for some reason does not show up on OCLC, but it is non-circulating because it has notes by Albrecht Weber. The OCLC number for the title 6347138. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Dec 22 19:44:25 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 14:44:25 -0500 Subject: codes Message-ID: <161227065813.23782.8771909282756511780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By "mounting it" I mean putting it on a webpage. Dominik has offered to mount it on Indology, which is a natural place for it. Allen T. >>> leona anderson 12/20 9:24 PM >>> >Allen: I would be grateful for such a bibliography. Before I say >yes, what exactly do you mean by "mounting it"? If you could dig up >the names of the Italian scholars, I would also be grateful. leona >anderson >I have collected a number of articles on cryptographic phenomena in >India, most not specifically on Sanskrit. I will try to put together >a bibliography early in the new year. Would anyone be interested in >mounting it if I do? Things are too bureaucratic here. There was also >a poster put up at the World Sanskrit Conference in Turin that two >Italian private scholars (lawyers as I recall) were looking for >collaborators in the study of India cryptography. I will try to dig >up their addresses at the same time. Ms. Anderson will please remind >me if I'm slow about this. > > >Allen Thrasher > > > > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > >Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE >Southern Asia Section LJ-150 >Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 >Library of Congress U.S.A. >tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 >Email: athr at loc.gov > >The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the >Library of Congress. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Dec 22 19:46:58 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 14:46:58 -0500 Subject: VaMza BrAhmaNa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065796.23782.762073703081928348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Ganesan, I may have a copy of the VaMza BraahmaNa edited by A.C. Burnell. Let me look among my personal collection. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 22 Dec 2000, N. Ganesan wrote: > Can a list member supply me with a copy of: > A. C. Burnell (ed.): The VaMza Br?hmaNa of the S?ma Veda with an > Introduction on S?yana's life and works, his Commentary and Index. > 43+12+19 p. Mangalore 1872. > > Does any USA library possess this? If not, can a list member > send me a copy please? > > Many thanks, > N. Ganesan > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 22 23:19:06 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 18:19:06 -0500 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism Message-ID: <161227065802.23782.2984387683826769565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan >This is simply the pUrNam adaH pUrNam idam verse in the >bRhadAraNyaka, and it can be interpreted otherwise. More >important sources for a two truths theory in Vedanta are >the phrase "neti, neti" in BU 2. 3. 6, ... I prefer pUrNam adaH approach because it forces people (especially beginners and outsiders to advaita) to use advaita more responsibly, as it needs some extra home work, because people have to collect other objects that are part of the model. Using the popular neti, neti also it is possible to dismantle the object in question directly (without attracting mArjAla nyAyam, unlike what I said in my last mail, sorry for this contradiction!). But this can only be done by going after the direct cause of perception of the object in question. This direct cause is associated with the perceiver himself or herself, and this turns out to be a rigorous introspective approach closer to prANAyAma or psychology more than logic. I generally prefer use of pUrNam adaH before neti, neti. Thanks a lot for the correction of transliterations. Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From MathiasMetzger at AOL.COM Fri Dec 22 23:35:43 2000 From: MathiasMetzger at AOL.COM (Mathias Metzger) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 18:35:43 -0500 Subject: codes Message-ID: <161227065806.23782.9375521026029981518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While collecting material for my yet to be published doctoral thesis on the language of diplomatic correspondence in Rajasthan I have come across lots of documents from the 17th and 18th century AD which are encoded. The codes used show varying degrees of sophistication. I have dealt with this in a (sorry!) yet to be published article on the scripts used in those diplomatic letters. If you are interested feel free to contact me. NB: The documents are NOT written in Sanskrit but in Hindi or Rajasthani Best wishes Mathias Metzger From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sat Dec 23 02:37:46 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 18:37:46 -0800 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065816.23782.11432555681364867049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: > [Aside, for Steve Farmer and Lance Cousins - > Other early upanishadic texts that lend themselves to the > Vedantic theory of two truths (or even multiple levels > of truth) are 6th and 7th chapters of chAndogya upanishad, > and the mUNDaka and prazna upanishad references to parA > vidyA vs. aparA vidyA. In the upanishads themselves, these > theories don't arise because of attempting to reconcile > irreconcilable elements in prior texts. There is a clear > consciousness that these are new texts, different from > the earlier Vedic samhitA-s. Exegesis is not yet central, > although new ideas are presented in terms of old ritual > elements. It is only after 5th century CE that exegetical > concerns become important, taking these very upanishads > as the texts that need exegesis. Clear evidence from the Brahmanas, Nirukta, and a lot of other exegetical texts (including the Vedic Sutras) can be raised against your last point, Vidyasankar. Exegetical concerns like this were found in virtually every layer of stratified traditions -- not only in India, but throughout Eurasia. This is also the case in respect to Abhidharma and other Indian scholastic traditions, of course -- not just Vedic sources. Often the exegesis evolved in an adversarial way. Before rushing off for the holidays, let me offer you the following vignette of a MASTER COMMENTATOR and his SKEPTICAL DISCIPLE discussing a stratified holy text. (The fact that the text was heavily layered -- something unsuspected by either of them -- ensured that the text was loaded with contradictions): MASTER COMMENTATOR: "It is written in the BOOK OF ALL TRUTHS that 'X is Y.'" SKEPTICAL DISCIPLE: "But the BOOK OF ALL TRUTHS also says, in many other places, that 'X is not-Y.' How can the text contain all truths if it contradicts itself?" MASTER COMMENTATOR (after a restless night of exegetical dreaming): "It is true that the BOOK OF ALL TRUTHS says, in some places, that 'X is Y,' and in others that 'X is not-Y.' But the problem doesn't lie in the BOOK OF ALL TRUTHS, my ignorant pupil, but in your lack of mystical insight. For the statements 'X is Y' and 'X is not-Y' do not refer to the same but to different levels of reality -- higher and lower. In revealing this, I speak of the deepest, most secret, of all Truths hidden in the BOOK OF ALL TRUTHS, which cannot err or contradict itself." Reality in such discussions was bifurcated, providing future exegetes with even more difficult objects of hermeneutical analysis. The problem became even more complex when the works of our MASTER COMMENTATOR and SKEPTICAL DISCIPLE -- with all their own contradictions -- became canonized. This left future exegetes (and *their* skeptical disciples) with the formidable task of reconciling the two with each other and with the original contradictions in the BOOK OF ALL TRUTHS. The complexities increased by orders of magnitude when the BOOK OF ALL TRUTHS belonged to an evolving CANON OF ALL BOOKS OF ALL TRUTHS comprised of hundreds of complexly stratified texts. Harmonizing them all would undoubtedly eventually lead someone to posit an even *higher* realm of reality, where all distinctions between "X" and "Y," and even "not-X" and "not-Y," were eradicated. At this point, the claim would emerge that the very essence of the spiritual lay in the realm of paradox -- far beyond ordinary human understanding. Such concepts could be expected to start to evolve as soon as the complexity of a canon (measured by its levels of internal contradiction) required it. We begin seeing the first extensive indications of this development by the 4th century BCE in the Middle East, Greece, India, and China -- when paradoxical concepts of many sorts started popping up all through Eurasia. (You can also find earlier paradoxes like this in later strata of the far more ancient Egyptian _Book of the Dead_, arising from similar commentarial mechanisms. For neat examples, see, e.g., some of the wonderful materials expressed in the famous 42nd chapter of the Book. Unfortunately, since the Bk of the Dead wasn't meant to be read by humans but by the gods -- they wrapped dead bodies in it -- scholasticism didn't develop far in ancient Egypt!) In sum: exegetical processes led universally to many variations of "double truths." The process was convergent: transmission certainly occurred in certain cases, but it wasn't needed. Nothing special here existed in either Vedic or Buddhist traditions -- witnessed by the fact that similar developments occurred all over the Old World. For comparative purposes -- even regarding dates -- the Buddhist example should be compared closely with the development of Daoism. The dependence on exegetical processes in the emergence of pardoxical concepts in the latter tradition has recently become clearer following the discovery of the Mawangdui and Guodian tomb texts of the the Laozi. Imagine repeated discussions like those of our MASTER COMMENTATOR and SKEPTICAL DISCIPLE -- involving untold thousands of commentators -- through many centuries of layered traditions. The abstract byproducts embedded in the resulting scholastic traditions would be similar no matter where the discussion took place -- and no matter what the contents of "X" or "Y," nor in which of the many BOOKS OF ALL TRUTHS or CANONS OF ALL BOOKS OF ALL TRUTHS they were found in. And with that, a happy Saturnalia to Vidyasankar and all other Indology exegetes, one and all! :^) Steve Farmer From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 23 02:41:28 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 18:41:28 -0800 Subject: Re. Devaraja Message-ID: <161227065818.23782.16611026080374572047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> Bhattacharya, Kamaleswar. ?The Religions of Ancient Cambodia.? In Helen Ibbitson Jessup, and Thierry Z?phir, eds., _Sculpture of Angkor and Ancient Cambodia: Millennium of Glory_. London: Thames and Hudson Ltd., 1997. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 23 02:43:14 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 18:43:14 -0800 Subject: Re. Devaraja Message-ID: <161227065820.23782.11040133466583526385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> Bhattacharya, Kamaleswar. "The Religions of Ancient Cambodia." In Helen Ibbitson Jessup, and Thierry Z?phir, eds., _Sculpture of Angkor and Ancient Cambodia: Millennium of Glory_. London: Thames and Hudson Ltd., 1997. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 22 19:00:06 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 19:00:06 +0000 Subject: VaMza BrAhmaNa Message-ID: <161227065784.23782.9422296700303305219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can a list member supply me with a copy of: A. C. Burnell (ed.): The VaMza Br?hmaNa of the S?ma Veda with an Introduction on S?yana's life and works, his Commentary and Index. 43+12+19 p. Mangalore 1872. Does any USA library possess this? If not, can a list member send me a copy please? Many thanks, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 22 23:33:50 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 00 23:33:50 +0000 Subject: Devaraja Message-ID: <161227065804.23782.1449163698089011119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Poets described kings as Gods who married Lakshmi or Sarasvati. Dr. Ganesan gave an ancient poem inscribed on the stone walls in the Chidambaram Natarajar shrine: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9905&L=indology&P=R31226 You were mentioning about advaitam in old South East Asia. Any references? Thanks, V. Iyer Dr. Radhika Srinivasan wrote: >tiruvuTai man2n2araik kANil tirumAlaik kaNTEn2E en2n2um >uruvuTai vaNNaGkaL kANil ulakaLantAn2 en2Ru tuLLum >karuvuTait tEvilkaL ellAm kaTalvaNNan2 kOyilE en2n2um >veruvilum vIzvilum kaNNan2 kazalkaL virumpumE>> >Thank you Palaniappan, I stand corrected. Thanks too for the ref. it makes >so much sense, considering the latest theory that Janaganamana was written >by Tagore in praise of the British monarchy, rather than India, the >Motherland! Godking concept revisited! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 23 00:07:08 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 00:07:08 +0000 Subject: Tunes like Tagore's song Message-ID: <161227065808.23782.8584890037780514540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >considering the latest theory that Janaganamana was written >by Tagore in praise of the British monarchy, rather than India, the >Motherland! Godking concept revisited! Thinking of the golden bygone days. As teens, when we entered colleges and the hostel food was horrible, students hummed this song in the same tune as Tagore's salute to the British king, jan2aGkaLin2 vayiRatil mIRiya paciyE! pAruGka ituvE intiyA! paJcAyp paTTin2i, taruvIGka parOTTA, kirAmpuk kaRiyuTan2 kurumA! ventayac cARO, veGkAya vaTaiyO, Uttappam iruppataik koTayyA! tayirvaTai mAcAluTan2 tOcai, uyiren2a itan2mEl Acai, An2Al paruppaTai vENTAm! jan2aGkaLin2 maGkaLam vAzuka mikuntE, pAratil vENTuva titEtAn2! kuzampE, atuvarai kuzampE, cuTac cuTac cuTum kuzampE! ---------------- When KirupAnanda VAriyAr stayed in our house in India, he sang jovially to us his song on his beloved deity, Lord Murukan. Same tune as Tagore's. sivaguha kumaraparAcala patiyE cIralai vAyuRai nAtA! cintUra centaLi pazanApurivAz tiruvErakamuRai kantA! ceGkatir nikar taNikAcalam vantAL cempaza mutir vana entAy! tavamaruL ARAtArA! tavamuni vararpaNi vIRA! tAtA! taruNa cupOtA! jaya jaya caGkara pAlaka maNiyE! tAraka mantira viyOtA! civamE! civamE! civamE! caravaNa pava civamE! Happy holidays for everyone, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Sat Dec 23 00:44:45 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 00:44:45 +0000 Subject: Yavanas and Yapaniya Message-ID: <161227065812.23782.5290768467334199997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 23 Mar 2000 I had written >> It remind me something that is completely unrelated to this >> verse. One Jain sect, that once existed near Konkan region >> was named Yaapaniiya in Sanskrit (jaavNiiya in Prakrit). I >> have wondered about the origin of the term. >What I was wondering about is: could JaavaNiiya have been Yaavaniiya >rather than Yaapaniiya. I just saw Jain-Shilalekha-Samgrah, part 4, page 9. In the sixth cent. Hoskote copperplate Sanskrit inscription of Konganyadhiraj, the order is actually referred to as "yaavanika". I was intrigued by the verse in darshan-sar: kallaaNe varaNayare sattasaye pa.ncha uttare jaade jaavaNiyasa.nghabhaavo sirikalasaado hu sevaDado Trans: In Kalyana town, after 705 years (after the death of King Vikrama) the "jaavaNiya" sangh arose from the shvetapata (monk) Shrikalasha. Tha Kadamba copper plate of Krishnavarman uses "yaapaniiya". It is not impossible that the original term was "yaavaniiya". Yashwant From giravani at JUNO.COM Sat Dec 23 02:53:03 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 02:53:03 +0000 Subject: Epithet NArAyaNA Message-ID: <161227065822.23782.17846241215959232378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The word "NArAyaNA" is an epithet. Here are examples. Agni NArAyaNa (Fire may start as a spark, builds up and then subsides down.This is a half cycle-Ayana). SUrya NArAyaNa (The sun rises, reaches its height and sets-This is a half cycle-Ayana). Navako.ta NArAyaNa (A very rich man is a half cycle-Ayana) Daridri NArAyaNa (A very poor man is the next opposite half cycle-Ayana) Vi.sNu NArAyaNa On the TulasI wedding day(November), devotees pray to Lord Vi.sNu, "You were sleeping for six months. Please now get up and protect your devotees for the next six months". So here also the half cycle and the half cycle are present). Some list members feel sad about declining interest in Sanskrit. To the best of my knowledge, there are 7 Sanskrit Universities humming in India. The problem has many facets. One of them is how one perceives Sanskrit Vak DevI? You would like see her beauty as whole with internal harmony and consistency or you would like to bring her bones piece by piece from Central Asia, Carpathian Kurgans,Elamite land and hand over to a Sanskrit student.I was inspired to study Sanskrit by verses like this- KeyUrAna vibhU.sayantI purU.sam hArAnacandrojjvalA Na snAnam na vilepanam na kusumam nAla.nkritA mUrdhajA VANyekA samala.nkaroti purU.sam yA sanskritA dhAryate KshIyante khalu bhU.saNAni satatam vak bhU.sanam bhU.sanam Get "high" with her NavayauvanAvalI.dha beauty! From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 23 05:53:56 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 05:53:56 +0000 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065824.23782.9002752283093182675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Clear evidence from the Brahmanas, Nirukta, and a lot of other >exegetical texts (including the Vedic Sutras) can be raised >against your last point, Vidyasankar. Exegetical concerns like What I mean is this = A few upanishad texts stratify parA vidyA and aparA vidyA, clubbing everything from Rgveda to kalpa as a lower kind of learning, partly subsumed by and partly rendered secondary by the higher brahmavidyA. True, they are embedded within the brAhmaNa portions that have exegetical concerns, but for the teaching offered in the upanishad itself, the primary motive is not exegetical. The two-truths scheme embedded in parA vs. aparA arises from the karma vs. jnAna approach to religious value, which in turn is correlated with pravRtti vs. nivRtti dharmas as ways of life. Rather than reconciling pre-existing points of contradiction, the upanishads present a *source* of the contradiction with regard to earlier strata of Vedic texts. Nevertheless, these texts already present what they have to say in terms of a two-truth approach. It then becomes the job of the later vedAntic exegetes to reconcile this contradiction. The brahmasUtras weave together the diverse upanishad texts, reconciling various views, taking chAndogya, and to a slightly lesser extent, the bRhadAraNyaka, as the primary guiding texts. It seems to me that some kind of two-truths theories serve a very different function from reconciliation of diverse viewpoints. Rather, some of these theories seem to be the source of the perceived contradictions, or a strategy to co-opt and/or marginalize others, e.g. New Testament vs. Old, and the idea of a new covenant that invalidates the old. One also has to ask how much accumulation of diverse material is necessary to reach a "critical mass", before an exegesis that seeks reconciliation becomes necessary. The tolerance for high degrees of diversity within the same broader tradition seems to have been much higher in India than elsewhere. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 23 18:02:34 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 10:02:34 -0800 Subject: pustaka Message-ID: <161227065852.23782.13300615315753948518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are a few occurrences of pottakam in the sense of an album or book in Tamil texts. In the Jain Tamil epic peruGkatai (dated to ca. 8th century CE: "niRai nUl pottakam neTu maNai ERRi" (peruGkatai:1:34/yAz kai vaittatu :25) -->"...placing the book containing treatises filled [with knowledge] on the long bench..." Another occurrence in the same book is: "pUtiyum maNNum pottakak kaTTum" (peruGkatai:1:36/cAgkiyat tAy urai: 225) -->"...[monks with] holy ash, [holy] earth(?), and a book-bundle" Another Jain Tamil classic "cIvaka cintAmaNi" of about the same date as peruGkatai has: "piNagku nUl mArpin2an2 peritu Or pottakam" (cIvakacintAmaNi: 2009:3) -->"...[he with] an entangled thread on his chest, a big book..." --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > The Pali "potthaka" is usually explained by Tamilists > from the following root words. Online Tamil Lexicon: > > I) pottu 1. covering, stopping, closing up; 2. mending, > botching, closing a hole; 3. rent or puncture; > > II) pottu-tal 01 1. to bury; 2. to cover, close, as the mouth, > eyes or ears, with the fingers or otherwise; 3. to close the > fingers together; 4. to mend, patch,botch, as baskets or bags; > 5. to stitch; 6. to hide, conceal; 7. to beat, flog; 8. to > light, as a fire; 9. to tie, string together, as a wreath; > 10. to invent, imagine; 11. to mix,unite; 12. to be filled ... > > Earliest inscriptions are written by the shramana sects. > For example, Asokan inscriptions. Earliest Tamil inscriptions > are have many gifts to Jain monks. There are claims by Sri Lankan > archaeologists for writing to have started arond 600 BC. The earliest > coins found in Sri Lanka contain unique Tamil names found > in Sangam texts and these coins are dated to 3rd > century BC by I. Mahadevan. From David McMahan, Orality, >... > > Vishal Agarwal wrote in IndianCivilization egroup: > <<< > Etymology of Pustaka ... > ________________ > ... > been borrowed. 'pustaka' occurs much later than its immediate source > from 'pusta' which is attested in a 6th century copperplate > inscription from North Bengal (Paharpur). There is the mention of one > chief (pradhana) and seven mere pustapalas. From the context it > appears that a pustapala (literally a guard of pusta) was a dignitary > that excercised jurisdiction over settlement and transfer of landed > property, assessment of revenue and maintenance of state records. The > precise meaning of pusta is unknown to us but we know that the > materials of a pusta work were from the following verse cited by > Sarvananda in his Tikasarvasva: > > Mrdaa vaa daaruna vvatha vastrenaapyatha carmanaa| > Loharatnaih krtam va'pi pustam ityavidhiiyate || > > 'It is called Pusta and is made of clay, wood, cloth, leather, iron > (and metals) or valuable stones'. > > This indicates that leather was not the only material and it is a > sufficient argument for the rejection for an Iranian source of > pustaka. > > Pusta is a sanskritized form of MIA pottha which is attested in Pali > potthaka (or 'hempen cloth') and Ardhamagadhi potthya potthaga > 'coarse cloth'. The source of MIA pottha is OIA pavasta ('covering') > which is attested in one occurrence in RV: (dve pavaste 10.27.7a). > The word goes back to Indi-Iranaina, as OP pavasta 'envelope' shows. > Iranian post and Iranian pottha are therefore cognates. > > It appears, therefore that pustaka meant primarily a bundle or bunch > of written sheets kept under a cover, and later in it came to mean > manuscript of a book placed between wooden covers and with an overall > covering of coarse cloth, as it has been done till recently. > > OIA pravista developed a double meaning in MIA: (i) covering, > covering tablet (kilamudra of the Niya documents), and (ii) coarse > cloth (used in covering). Both the meanings are there in 'pustaka' > and the second meaning obtains in MIA pottha and in NIA (Bengali) > pota 'coarse cloth used as covering'. It has also given rise to a > verb 'pota' 'to put underground, to plant'. There is a ghost word > 'prothita' used frequently in Bengali Sadhubhasha. There is no such > root in Sanskrit. There are however two homophonic roots in OIA, > pruth and proth; pruth (to plant, neigh, snort) occurs in Rigveda; > proth* (to match for, withstand, overpower, destroy) oconfined to the > dhatupathas. These toots have nothing to do with the pseudo-Sanskrit > prothita. > .. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Sat Dec 23 10:06:50 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 10:06:50 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" In-Reply-To: <3A413DAC.74CDBDB5@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227065829.23782.5564215925087039245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, for some reason or another four days of Indology postings all arrived at once. So I am somewhat behind on the discussion. There seems to be some local religious festival disrupting things up in London or somewhere :-) Steve writes: >Analogous concepts can be easily supplied from so-called gnostic >and Middle Platonist documents in the Mediterranean and Daoist >(also Neo-Daoist) texts in China -- all emerging about the same >time as Abhidhamma. I think you have to be more exact. Gnostic sources may well be too late. What can you cite from Middle Platonist sources provably earlier than the first century A.D. ? Neo-Taoist texts are heavily influenced by Buddhism. So again what exactly is the date of the early material there. In other words I am not prepared to accept the assertion of universality entirely on the basis of the simple claim. It might be right. but it might equally be a case of influence. Or, perhaps of convergence. > The origins >of the strategy can be traced to basic strategies that the brain >employs to handle contradictory data: You don't need to trace it >to one or another ur-tradition. I tend to view that kind of argument as a religious superstition. At all events, it is highly controversial. >In saying this, I recognize that once some form of the >"double-truth" took root locally, its systematic byproducts were >often adopted by later, related, families of traditions without >the need for reinvention. This arguably led, e.g., to the kinds >of dependencies that you suggest might be traced in India to >early use of the "double truth" in Abhidhamma. (To play devil's >advocate, however, I'd bet that suggestive adumbrations of the >idea might also be found in later Vedic traditions; I can think >of several candidate texts.) I'll take that up in response to Vidyasankar Sundaresan. > Similar source hunting, of course, >can be used to link Latin and earlier Arabic and Hebrew and Greek >uses of the Western versions of the "double-truth" -- if simple >source hunting is your game. Essential before speculating. >The idea of adoption can be generalized using theoretical >concepts applicable to the evolution of complex systems in >general: Obvious "path dependencies" show up in many points in >premodern religious, philosophical, and cosmological traditions. >One such dependency involved tendencies in a family of related >traditions to invoke the same kinds of exegetical strategies >repeatedly -- helping give birth along the way to hierarchical >and analogical structures closely associated with those >strategies. Once an exegetical strategy is adopted early in a >tradition, the probability rises that the same strategy will be >used in harmonizing conflicts in later strata of this or related >(even warring) traditions. Such path dependencies help explain >the striking family resemblances that tended to develop in >scholastic traditions in one premodern cultural region or >another. Such path dependencies play a prominent place in >computer simulations of the growth of stratified traditions >developed over the past few years by me, John Henderson, and >Peter Robinson (a computer modelist at NASA-Ames Research >Center). Ralph Abraham, one of the mathematical founders of >nonlinear dynamics (chaos theory, complex systems, etc.), has >recently joined our collaboration and is helping refine our >mathematical ideas. There are only a limited number of ways in which one can think systematically. That has been known for a very long while. But shouldn't this analysis be applied to the development of modern systems of thought too ? >Lance: I think that one of the grounds of our apparent >disagreement derives from nothing deeper than our different >current research interests. As a comparative historian, I see >developments of ideas like the "double-truth" in Abhidamma (or >later in Advaita) as local instances of a more global phenomenon. >As specialists in Buddhist traditions, you and S. Hodge just as >naturally focus on specific cases. I recognize the importance of >that approach, since in order to have any predictive power, any >model must take into account local as well as global features of >whatever it is modeling. I certainly appreciate unique local >features of the "double-truth" in Abhadamma. But I'd also argue >that many closely related exegetical byproducts evolved >independently in many other scholastic traditions. Well, yes and no. I don't doubt that there is something in what you are saying. But . . . 1. The abhidhamma distinction between sammuti and paramattha derives from the development of the concepts of attha and dhamma in (later?) Suttanta literature. (This might have parallels in e.g. early Vai"se.sika or some brahmanical exegetical traditions but not really in the Upani.sads.) It is closely related to issues of exegesis, but I think it would be reductionist to see it only in those terms. 2. When this is adopted into Mahaayaana, the term paramaartha becomes 'translated' as it were and refers to some kind of genuine ultimate truth or non-truth, sometimes perhaps to an ultimate reality. This is not really a matter of exegesis, but rather of some type of unitive philosophy. The origins of this are another question, but the terminology certainly comes from abhidharma. I tend to feel that scholarship often has an institutional bias against 'external' influences. This is perhaps a branch of the 'Not Invented Here' (NIH) syndrome. Good scholars don't like evidence they can't evaluate for themselves. >Other grounds of disagreement, I suspect, may lie in differences >in our attitudes towards the putative "truth value" of these >traditions. (These are awkward terms, but I can't think of >substitutes.) Obviously a lot of people on this List continue to >view premodern systems of various sorts (e.g., various Buddhist >branches, Advaita) as repositories of valid speculative insights >about the world. Well, I would certainly see them as that. >Rather more modestly, I view systems like these >as exegetical byproducts of brains reflecting on earlier thought >fossilized in stratified textual traditions. In an >Averroistic-style double-truth of my own, I suppose, I leave the >purported "truth value" of the traditions I study out of the >picture. You want to take the high ground ? To me, this seems like a variant of the Protestant methodology first devised in order to devalue Catholic scholastic traditions. The problem with the modern development of this position is that, although it presents itself as impartial, it may in fact be just a kind of ucchedavaadin religious fundamentalism. >My own textual studies began by looking in minute detail at the >exegetical dynamics of extreme hyperscholastic systems at the end >of the manuscript era in the West -- at systems which in a sense >"summed up" systematic developments from several dozen earlier >traditions. My current interests in the earliest stages of >stratified traditions in India and China confirms that the same >exegetical dynamics were operative much earlier -- thousands of >miles from the West. I don't really have any problem with this, as long as it is recognized that it is just one part of what is going on. Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Sat Dec 23 11:06:48 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 11:06:48 +0000 Subject: Buddhist and Brahmanical truths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065831.23782.7820037636110944871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [I have changed the name of the thread as this is not really the same topic as the issue of idealism] Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: >[Aside, for Steve Farmer and Lance Cousins - >Other early upanishadic texts that lend themselves to the >Vedantic theory of two truths (or even multiple levels >of truth) are 6th and 7th chapters of chAndogya upanishad, >and the mUNDaka and prazna upanishad references to parA >vidyA vs. aparA vidyA. In the upanishads themselves, these >theories don't arise because of attempting to reconcile >irreconcilable elements in prior texts. There is a clear >consciousness that these are new texts, different from >the earlier Vedic samhitA-s. Exegesis is not yet central, >although new ideas are presented in terms of old ritual >elements. There are several issues here: 1. I would have no doubt that Gau.dapaada shows strong influence from Madhyamaka sources. 2. That does not mean that what he says is identical to what they are saying. 3. I would assume that there was probably sufficient variation in both Mahaayaana thought and Vedaantin thought that some thinkers from each tradition would be quite close, others rather far apart. 4. It is quite clear that for the latter part of the first millennium A.D. there was considerable debate and influence going both ways between various Buddhist, Jain and Brahmanical traditions. We should therefore suspect that the same was the case earlier too (when we have much less evidence). 5. The terminology of the Madhyamaka version of the distinction between paramaartha and sa.mv.rti is clearly derived from abhidharma developments. 6. The original distinction in abhidha(r)mma between sammuti and paramattha is partly based on exegetical issues. It is not of such a kind that influence from the Upani.sads is probable. (Other influences are however quite possible.) 7. In the Madhyamaka paramaartha is interpreted to mean 'ultimate' in a 'philosophical' sense. The content (or absence of content!) now given to the concept could be influenced by ideas from the Upani.sads or mediated though early Vedaantin and/or Saa.mkhya thinkers. 8. Buddhism in its beginnings in any case inherited much from the same background as the Upani.sads. It is not impossible that less-developed ideas along these lines were present in Buddhist circles from the beginning. 9. Both of these may be the case. >It is only after 5th century CE that exegetical >concerns become important, taking these very upanishads >as the texts that need exegesis. In terms of temporal >priority, chAndogya and bRhadAraNyaka are clearly pre- >Buddhist, but how one wants to date Buddhist abhidharma >texts relative to the muNDaka upanishad is debatable. Agreed. >So also with respect to the sAMkhya-yoga elements in the >Mahabharata, which are derived from the early upanishads.] > Well, that is more debatable. I think there is strong Buddhist influence there. Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 23 12:44:55 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 12:44:55 +0000 Subject: pustaka Message-ID: <161227065834.23782.10029769019680405838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Pali "potthaka" is usually explained by Tamilists from the following root words. Online Tamil Lexicon: I) pottu 1. covering, stopping, closing up; 2. mending, botching, closing a hole; 3. rent or puncture; II) pottu-tal 01 1. to bury; 2. to cover, close, as the mouth, eyes or ears, with the fingers or otherwise; 3. to close the fingers together; 4. to mend, patch,botch, as baskets or bags; 5. to stitch; 6. to hide, conceal; 7. to beat, flog; 8. to light, as a fire; 9. to tie, string together, as a wreath; 10. to invent, imagine; 11. to mix,unite; 12. to be filled You can see all the meanings of the pustakam, a sanskritzed form of 'pottakam' is contained in the root verb 'pottu-tal'. "nuval" has been used in Old Tamil to mean various meanings such as 'to utter, to say, to sing, to sing the praise'. "nUl" formed from "nuval" also means pustakam and thread. Note that 'prabandham' and 'grantam' also refer to books written on leaves tied together by thread. Steve Farmer's theory of IVC being an oral society, which used very little writing has relevence to tamil 'nUl' which in earlier times meant 'to say, recite' etc. and ultimately having one meaning 'book'. The IE folks went to many regions in the world, however the oral preservation of the oldest IE texts tookplace *only* in the IVC by the acculturated Aryans, and not anywhere else. Earliest inscriptions are written by the shramana sects. For example, Asokan inscriptions. Earliest Tamil inscriptions are have many gifts to Jain monks. There are claims by Sri Lankan archaeologists for writing to have started arond 600 BC. The earliest coins found in Sri Lanka contain unique Tamil names found in Sangam texts and these coins are dated to 3rd century BC by I. Mahadevan. From David McMahan, Orality, writing and authority in south asian buddhism: visionary literature and the struggle for legitimacy in the mahayana, History of Religions, 1998, 37, 3, p. 249-274, I understand that earlier Hinayana sects emphasized aural text transmission in the sangha was modeled after brahminical vedic recitation, but mahayana gave the shift from aural to visual media. This involves writing. Mahayana flourished in Lanka in early times and later got purged. The Mahayana origins not just in the Northwest but South India in places like Sriparvatam, Potalaka(tam. Potiyil) and Ceylon also need to be taken into consideration for constructing the roots of pustaka(skt)/potthaka(pali)/pottakam(tamil). Regards, N. Ganesan Dr. Palaniappan's mail in Indology, "Pavananti anticipates H.Scharfe by about 7-8 centuries" http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9702&L=indology&P=R12027 sUtra and sUta: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9702&L=indology&P=R2607 Sanskrit "nAvayati": http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9703&L=indology&P=R2210 etc. (Search for nUl in Indology archives). ********************************************** Vishal Agarwal wrote in IndianCivilization egroup: <<< Etymology of Pustaka I am reproducing below a section of a journal article, and invite members to comment. Note that the supposed Iranian origin of the word 'Pustak' is sometimes taken as a proof that Indians learnt the art of writing from Iranians, It is also sometimes taken as a 'proof' that Indians learnt writing (not taking the IVC script into account) pretty late. Vishal ________________ "Pusta and Pustaka are accepted as words borrowed from Middle Iranian post- 'skin', although skin and leather had never been used as writing material in India, at least when the word is supposed to have been borrowed. 'pustaka' occurs much later than its immediate source from 'pusta' which is attested in a 6th century copperplate inscription from North Bengal (Paharpur). There is the mention of one chief (pradhana) and seven mere pustapalas. From the context it appears that a pustapala (literally a guard of pusta) was a dignitary that excercised jurisdiction over settlement and transfer of landed property, assessment of revenue and maintenance of state records. The precise meaning of pusta is unknown to us but we know that the materials of a pusta work were from the following verse cited by Sarvananda in his Tikasarvasva: Mrdaa vaa daaruna vvatha vastrenaapyatha carmanaa| Loharatnaih krtam va'pi pustam ityavidhiiyate || 'It is called Pusta and is made of clay, wood, cloth, leather, iron (and metals) or valuable stones'. This indicates that leather was not the only material and it is a sufficient argument for the rejection for an Iranian source of pustaka. Pusta is a sanskritized form of MIA pottha which is attested in Pali potthaka (or 'hempen cloth') and Ardhamagadhi potthya potthaga 'coarse cloth'. The source of MIA pottha is OIA pavasta ('covering') which is attested in one occurrence in RV: (dve pavaste 10.27.7a). The word goes back to Indi-Iranaina, as OP pavasta 'envelope' shows. Iranian post and Iranian pottha are therefore cognates. It appears, therefore that pustaka meant primarily a bundle or bunch of written sheets kept under a cover, and later in it came to mean manuscript of a book placed between wooden covers and with an overall covering of coarse cloth, as it has been done till recently. OIA pravista developed a double meaning in MIA: (i) covering, covering tablet (kilamudra of the Niya documents), and (ii) coarse cloth (used in covering). Both the meanings are there in 'pustaka' and the second meaning obtains in MIA pottha and in NIA (Bengali) pota 'coarse cloth used as covering'. It has also given rise to a verb 'pota' 'to put underground, to plant'. There is a ghost word 'prothita' used frequently in Bengali Sadhubhasha. There is no such root in Sanskrit. There are however two homophonic roots in OIA, pruth and proth; pruth (to plant, neigh, snort) occurs in Rigveda; proth* (to match for, withstand, overpower, destroy) oconfined to the dhatupathas. These toots have nothing to do with the pseudo-Sanskrit prothita. In Middle Bengali literature the word 'pota majhi' occurs in the sense of prison warder. The real meaning is the headman (majhi) of the covered or underground rooms, i.e., prison cells." Reference: Sen, Sukukmar; "Three Etymologies"; pg. 55-59 in 'Our Heritage' vol V.1 (January-June 1957); Calcutta >>> _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sat Dec 23 17:45:17 2000 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 12:45:17 -0500 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065826.23782.1295400942916648832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wednesday, December 20, 2000, 5:50:40 PM, Satya Upadhya wrote: -->> i have read the original works neither in the original Sanskrit, neither SU> have i read the whole of them in translation. I have only read parts of them SU> in translation, and also the criticism of these books by more modern modern SU> scholars. Considering the list of works you mention, which covers some of the most important (and most difficult) works of Buddhist epistemologists, and given the list of scholars you mention, I once again strongly advise you to update your references. In particular, translations like those by Stcherbatsky are fraught with terminological idiosyncracies that make it, in my view, *impossible* to draw any conclusions about the ideas articulated in the texts *without* consulting the original Sanskrit (or Tibetan). In other words, reading Stcherbatsky may tell you a great deal about what Stcherbatsky thought, but not necessarily a great deal about what DharmakIrti thought. -->> you keep saying that the Yogacara does not deny external material SU> objects/external reality. Could you give some sources for this (modern SU> sources i mean)? [ kindly do not give me online sources as i have found that SU> many of them are not reliable.] You have not read carefully enough what I wrote. I pointed out that two of the instances you cite in support of the thesis "only ideas are real" are ill-chosen, because the statements they make are *compatible* with the assumption that external objects exist and are real. These instances were DignAga's AlambanaparIkSA and DharmakIrti's sahopalambhaniyama-inference. I have *not* stated that YogAcAra does not deny external reality; on this issue (and on Dan Lusthaus' ideas) I have no firm opinion as yet, and I actually doubt that it is useful to discuss such a general and vaguely formulated thesis with respect to a school of thought as diverse as YogAcAra. At any rate, it is important to be careful in choosing one's textual support for statements made about Indian philosophers - yours were not carefully chosen. This is all I have to contribute to this thread. SU> My understanding of the argument is that SU> according to this law "we never know an object as distinct from the SU> sensations or ideas. Whatever is known is known as identical with the SU> ideas." (See pg 80 of Chattopadhyaya's What is living and what is dead in SU> Indian Philosophy.) Dharmakirti himself says the following (as quoted in SU> Madhva's "Sarvadarsanasangraha"): "The object known as blue and the SU> knowledge thereof are identical, because of the law of their being SU> invariably known as inseparable." Let me try to state, in simple terms, why the sahopalambhaniyama-inferences as presented in this form does not state that "only ideas are real" and let me assume, for the sake of argument, that no additional assumptions over and above the inference as given in this form are to be introduced: Images appear in perceptual cognitions. These are said to be not different from the perceptual cognitions themselves. Leaving aside the many meanings which this "non-difference" can have, one is at any rate justified in concluding that perceptual cognitions *directly* apprehend only what is given within them, or within consciousness. But this does not preclude that blue objects, composed of atoms, *exist* - only access to them is not possible in a direct fashion and must be explained in a more indirect fashion. Hence, the reality or existence of external entities is not per se incompatible with the sahopalambhaniyama-inference. It may be possible to derive a denial of some sort of external reality from other passages in DharmakIrti's texts, but not from this one. The problem in Chattopadhyaya's summary and interpretation of the sahopalambhaniyama-inference as you give it lies, I think, in an overly vague usage of the terms "know" and "object". The sahopalambhaniyama-inference uses corresponding expressions in a very specific meaning: The perceptual image and its cognition are not different. Once you reformulate the argument in this fashion, I think you will not draw misleading conclusions so easily. This is why I insist that relying on original sources and examining their terminology in a more careful manner is so important. I have not read Chattopadhyaya's book, but the passages you quote suggest to me that he (?) subscribes to a style of translation and approach to interpretation not unlike that of Stcherbatsky, and consequently problematic in similar respects. -->> i had mentioned these by name because they are fairly renowned and it is SU> not so easy to dismiss away their claims (as would be in the case of some SU> modern scholar of whom few have heard about). Dismissing claims is, or should be, done not on the basis of the authority of the ones who make them, but by examining the factual basis for their claims in the original texts. Believe me, dismissing claims by Stcherbatsky is in this respect *very* easy, much easier as for instance dismissing claims by a more "modern" scholar like Takashi Iwata, whose sahopalambhaniyama-study is a must-read for anyone who is seriously interested in this inference (though, unfortunately for some, it is written in German). SU> Here is a more modern souce: "Kumarila Bhatta's refutation of the dreaming SU> argument" by John A. Taber (in Studies in Mimansa (ed. R.C. Dwivedi) Motilal SU> Banarsidas Publishers. New Delhi, 1994). In this article, Kumarila's SU> refutation of Vasubandhu's views (as recorded in the "Vimsatika"), is SU> presented by Taber. I fail to see why this "more modern source" would have any significance for the interpretation of the sahopalambhaniyama-inference in particular as well as to the examination of DharmakIrti's views in general. On the whole I think this thread is becoming rather unproductive, which is why I shall not contribute any more unless more substantive arguments are presented, --- Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Dec 23 12:36:38 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 13:36:38 +0100 Subject: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065842.23782.16601005841215807250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank Lance Cousins, Steve Farmer, Stephen Hodge and other contributors for this most interesting discussion. This is like "old-time" Indology! May this be a trend, and may it last. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sat Dec 23 19:15:19 2000 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 14:15:19 -0500 Subject: Questions on Indian idealism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065836.23782.217021361545333719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thursday, December 21, 2000, 12:16:02 AM, Dmitri wrote: D> I am interested in various meanings of "aalambana". D> Monier-Williams gives as one of possible renderings: D> aalambana 153.2 the natural and necessary connection of a sensation D> with the cause which excites it (Saahitya-Darpa.na) D> This meaning is the same as used in Yoga-Suutra (at least, as I understand D> it). MW gives a wide variety of meanings, not in a particularly systematic fashion. I am not familiar with the SD-passage (note that MW adds "(rhetoric)" to this item, so it might be altogether irrelevant for establishing the meaning of "Alambana" in epistemological contexts); nor am I familiar with the passages from YS you refer to. The meaning "... natural and necessary connection" which MW gives for SD strikes me as strange insofar as I am only aware of "Alambana" as referring to an object, or a factor, but not to a *relationship*. One would have to look closer at the passage in question to ascertain whether MW is correct. For the AlambanaparIkSA, the relevant context is given with the Abhidharmic distinction between four causal conditions (pratyaya), i.e. Alambanapratyaya, hetupratyaya, adhipatipratyaya and samanantarapratyaya. The Alambanapratyaya is the "causal condition which supports [the effect]", "causal condition on which [the effect] rests", in the case of perceptual cognition taken to be its object-support. In his commentary on the AP, VinItadeva likens the Alambanapratyaya to a walking-stick which supports someone. This analogy serves to explain how the Alambanapratyaya, while being a "causal condition", can nevertheless be given simultaneously with its effect, and need not be temporally prior: The internal image in a perceptual cognition arises simultaneously with the cognition but still serves as its support, just like a walking-stick. If you want to know more about Buddhist abhidharmic discussions about the role and character of an "Alambana", I would suggest reading Collet Cox' "On the Possibility of a Nonexistent Object of Consciousness: SarvAstivAdin and DArSTAntika Theories.", Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies 11/1 (1988), 31-87. --- Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 23 14:56:49 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 14:56:49 +0000 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065844.23782.14161440268510863625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Coming to the original question of Bjarte Kaldhol. Nothing is known about Dravidian immigration into India. Especially the time when they moved. Scholars like B. Sergent speculate that Dravidians moved into India about 10,000 years ago. Asko Parpola wrote on 20 Mar 2000 in the www.tamil.net: <<< Dear Bala Pillai, Many thanks for your kind words and inquiries. I think it unlikely that anybody will ever succeed in PROVING a genetic relationship between the Dravidian language family and any other language family by means of generally accepted linguistic methodology. This does not mean that Dravidian languages are not related to any other known language families -- of course they are, but the relationship is simply so distant that there is not enough shared linguistic data left to demonstrate the relationship in a convincing manner. A minimum requirement for this would seem to be about 100 good etymologies with regular phonemic correspondences. The structure of Sumerian does not suggest a close relationship with the Dravidian family. The Elamite, Uralic and 'Altaic' languages are good candidates in this respect, and a number of tantalizing etymologies and even some morphological parallels have been presented from them, and yet all attempts have failed to convince critical scholars with most authority. >>> David McAlpin did a PhD on the possible relationship between Elamite and Dravidian, and after his graduate work, he quit doing Asian studies, and this hypothesis is not accepted by Bh. Krishnamuri, an authority on Drav. linguistics. See his mail in Indology, <<< At 11:52 02/03/98 -0500, you wrote: >McAlpin published his provocative and very interesting study quite some >time ago and then he himself (if I am not mistaken) appears to have >disappeared from academic cirlces and nothing more was heard from him. In >any event, while some linguists are still open to considering his line of >argument, it is by no means universally accepted at all. Does anyone know >of any more recent work predicated on McAlpin's preliminary >investigations? Regrards, Edwin In my article 'Comparative Dravidian Sstudies since Current Trends 1969' (In For Gordon Fairbanks, ed. by Veneeta z. Acson and Richard L. Leed,212-231.1985. Honolulu: Univ of Hawaii Press), I made the following observations on McAlpin's proposal of Proto-Elamo-Dravidian."...He compares 57 lexical items drawn from a corpus of 'about 5000 words' of Achaemenid Elamite (640 BC), and constructs phonological correspondences and a theory of relationship between Dravidian and Elamite. He even reconstructs Proto-Elamo-Dravidian (PED). Thhere are 47 correspondences or phonological rules which account for 57 etymological groups (1)...Many of the rules formulated by McAlpin lack intrinsic phonetic/phonological motivation and appear ad hoc, invented to fit the proposed correspondences; e.g. PED i,e > 0 (Elamite) when followed by t, n, which are again followed by a: but these remain undisturbed in Dravidian (1974:93). How does a language develop that kind of sound change? This rule was dropped a few years later, because the etymologies were abandoned (1979:184). (2) he set up retroflexes as an innovation in Dravdian resulting from PED *rt (94). Later he abandoned this rule and set up retrofexes and dentals for PED and said that Elamite merged the retroflexes with dentals (1979, chart on 184-5)....."But, it is puzzling that in the body of the article he referes to the splitting of PED dentals into dentals and post-dentals..(1979:176). His 1981 book was not yet published ; so I took three of his papers for review in the paper that I prepared in Dec. 1980. I was able to show a lot of adhocism in his etymologies as well as correspondences. Dravidian scholars have not accepted McAlpin's proposal of PED. His corpus of 640BC (corresponding to Pre-Tamil period) does not favourably compare with Proto-Dravidian, approximately of 3000 BC. Regards, Bh.K. end Bh. Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street No.9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500 017, A.P. India Telephone (R)(40)701 9665 E-mail: >>> <<< Dear listmembers, Since I wanted to know something about the Dravidian languages without going so far as to read a grammar of Tamil, I sat down to read Zvelebil's article in Encyclopaedia Britannica (Vol. 22, 15th edition). In the third paragraph, he states: "Nothing definite is known about the origin of the Dravidian family." Well, let us see what this professed ignorance leads to: 1. There are vague indigenous traditions about an ancient migration from the south. 2. According to some scholars, Dravidian languages are indigenous to India. 3. A hypothesis has been gaining ground that posits a movement of Dravidian speakers from the northwest to the south and east of the peninsula, a movement originating possibly from Central Asia. (This hypothesis is not substantiated, and Zvelebil later confesses that "nothing definite is known about the ancient domain of the Dravidian parent speech".) 4. Another theory connects the Dravidian speakers with the peoples of the Indus Valley civilization. 5. The circumstances of the advent of Dravidian speakers in India are shrouded in mystery. (An "advent" is now taken for granted.) 6. It is possible that a Dravidian-speaking people that can be described as dolichocephalic Mediterraneans mixed with brachycephalic Armenoids and established themselves in northwest India during the 4th millennium BC. Along their route, they may have possibly come into an intimate, prolonged contact with Ural-Altaic speakers, thus explaining the striking affinities between the Dravidian and Ural-Altaic language groups. (No such affinities are mentioned.) 7. It is possible that Proto-Brahui was the first language to split off from Proto-Dravidian, probably during the immigration movement into India some time in the 4th millennium BC... Now, if nothing definite is known about the origin of the Dravidian family, or about the ancient domain of the Dravidian parent speech, why speculate about an immigration movement? And why must this immigration have happened in the fourth millennium BC? >>> _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sat Dec 23 19:59:51 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 14:59:51 -0500 Subject: Nice site Message-ID: <161227065856.23782.10678958012511231254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Discovered this nicely done site. Does anyone know of a similar site for South Asia? http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/ -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sat Dec 23 19:59:53 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 14:59:53 -0500 Subject: Parallels in Japan Message-ID: <161227065854.23782.15489981570315793886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The winter issue of the AAS's _Asian Studies Newsletter_ contains an article by Takashi Yoshida about textbook revisionism in Japan (mostly in regard to Japanese behavior during WWII). Here are a few snippets. "According to Nishio [a revisionist professor at the University of Electro-Communications], an editor of the history text, his book has improved upon previous texts in a number of ways. For instance, it heavily emphasizes Japanese cultural uniqueness in the Neolithic period; the influence of early-modern Japanese arts on modern Western arts . . . The leaders of the Society maintain that this textbook places a strong and healthy emphasis on "Japaneseness" . . . Tawara [an anti-revisionist] also questions the Society's editorial policy, which gave lay historians such as Fujioka and Nishio more authority over the text than professional historians. . . . In the past, international concern has supplied a crucial counterweight to the revisionist movement in Japan." -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Dec 23 15:02:37 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 15:02:37 +0000 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065847.23782.3626243342760059599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: > For the statements > 'X is Y' and 'X is not-Y' do not refer to the same but to > different levels of reality -- higher and lower. In revealing > this, I speak of the deepest, most secret, of all > Truths hidden in the BOOK OF ALL TRUTHS, which cannot err > or contradict itself." Apart from a form of the "double truth" approach, Mahaayaana Buddhists and some of their precursors, such as the Mahaasa`ngikas and the Lokottarvaadins, also adopted a strategy which implicitly acknowledges the layering of texts you mention. According to this approach, the Budha is said to have a) never verbalized any teachings or b) uttered only one single sound. The various "audiences" heard various teachings appropriate for their situation. Thus, since the Buddha never actually said anything, one can have a range of apparently contradictory teachings without privileging any of them above others -- they are all accepted as equally valid inasmuch as they are suitable to the specific needs of trainees at different times and in different places. This may, of course, lead on to a "double truth" technique of classification but not necessarily so. The famous Three Turnings of the Wheel of the Dharma mentioned in the c3rd century CE Mahaayaana suutra, the Sandhi-nirmocana, has the Buddha himself classify his own teachings into three grades according to their "sophistication" but again one should note that the potentially misleading (for Western interpreters) sa.mv.rti / paramaartha-satya terms are not used but instead we find the neya / niitaartha division I mentioned previously. Another term often used in Mahaayaana texts as an equivalent for neyaartha is abhisandhi (implicit /intentional) to denote non-definitive teachings. I draw your attention to this merely to show that sa.mv.rti / paramaartha-satya terminology is primarily used to deal with perceptual / conceptual levels -- they also can be linked with saamanya-lak.sa.na / sva-lak.sa.na (universal / specific attributes) or praj~napti / dravya ("imputed" designation / substance) -- rather than to distinguish the "deepest, most secret, of all Truths". There is nothing especially secret or deep about paramaartha-satya, in the Mahaayaana texts I read, it is just a more veridical mode of perception but not particularly secret. Would modern cognitive psychologists say that bare sense data is more deep, profound, secret than conceptual constructs ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From mlbd at VSNL.COM Sat Dec 23 11:37:17 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 17:07:17 +0530 Subject: Libraries with special collections on yoga and physical culture Message-ID: <161227065839.23782.14149252130464035951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lubomir Ondracka, One of the yoga experts in the country is B K S Iyengar in Pune. If if need to find out his address you may contact our Pune branch E-mail mailto:mlbdpune at ip.eth.net for its details. R P Jain -------------------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011) 3974826, 3918335, 3911985, 3932747 (011) 5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax:(011) 3930689, 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com , mail at mlbd.com Website: www.mlbd.com , www.newagebooksindia.com ***************************************************************** God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ***************************************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: Lubomir Ondracka To: Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 2:05 PM Subject: Re: Libraries with special collections on yoga and physical culture > > Does anyone know of any libraries in India or elsewhere which have > > specialised collections on yoga and/or Indian physical culture such as > > wrestling and the martial arts? A patron would like to know. > > Specialised collection on (hatha)yoga has the library of Kaivalyadhama Yoga > Research Institute, Lonavla (kdham.com). > Its collection is definitely not excellent but one of the best in India. > -- > Lubomir Ondracka > ============================================= > Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies > Charles University > Namesti Jana Palacha 2 > 116 38 Prague 1 > Czech Republic > --------------------------------------------- > e-mail: ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz > --------------------------------------------- > phone: 00420-2-21619356 > ============================================= > From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Sat Dec 23 16:24:16 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 17:24:16 +0100 Subject: Origins of the "double truth" Message-ID: <161227065849.23782.5251972980238947715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are, indeed, some superficial resemblances/parallels between Buddhism and Stoicism, which may imply contact. Zenon was born in Cyprus, and he lived almost half a millennium after the Orientalizing Revolution (Burkert) that taught the Greeks so much - among other things, to read and write. But to me, Buddhism is a very peculiar way of disciplining the mind, and I am not a romantic. Emptiness has nothing to do with romantic ideas. On the contrary: "Discursive thoughts are like waves on the ocean. Although they arise, their essence is empty." And: "This luminous perception of the present Is the very face of relative truth. If one knows the unfabricated, natural essence of this, That itself is the absolute truth. Those scholastic sophists with their two truths, Though including a lot of quotations and logic, do not understand the main point." Amen, namo gurave, and no further comments. Merry Christmas, Bjarte Kaldhol ---------- > From: Steve Farmer > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Origins of the "double truth" > Date: 22. desember 2000 20:31 > > Bjarte Kaldhol writes on the origins of the "double truth": > > > There is, of course, no need to point to a privileged tradition, but on the > > other hand, a Buddhist or Indian origin of the idea cannot be ruled out by > > pointing to superficially similar ideas elsewhere (at a later time). > > The resemblances are not superficial and are not all from later > periods. See my last post for examples. > > > From a > > Buddhist standpoint, it might not be a question of "two truths" in any > > western meaning, but rather two ways of perceiving phenomena - either > > accepting them as "real" and suffer, or meditate upon emptiness until they > > become "unreal". > > Your suggestion that there is some peculiarly "western" (as > opposed to "Indian"?) meaning of "truth" is a remnant of old > romantic ideas about the "wisdom of the East." I don't see a > great divide here. > > > In Buddhism, the only "truth" that matters is the Path. > > Shantideva says that those who wish to "pacify suffering", should > > "generate" the wisdom of emptiness through meditation. It is this > > insistence upon meditation that makes the idea specifically Indian, I > > believe. This is very different from scholastic ways of harmonizing > > manuscript traditions. > > Go back and read the Stoics or Epicureans or Daoists for many > parallels. > > Followed by the kicker: > > > Buddhist thought is much deeper than anything I have > > met elsewhere. > > No comment needed. > > My best, > Steve Farmer From haridasc at YAHOO.COM Sun Dec 24 04:45:14 2000 From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 00 20:45:14 -0800 Subject: the so-called "double-truth": Message-ID: <161227065860.23782.17603628259396336367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Steve Farmer wrote: > Clear evidence from the Brahmanas, Nirukta, and a > lot of other > exegetical texts (including the Vedic Sutras) can be > raised > against your last point, Vidyasankar. Dr. Farmer, could you please more specific and textually locate that which would demonstrate your point? thanks in advance __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 24 01:24:27 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 00 01:24:27 +0000 Subject: Buddhist and Brahmanical truths Message-ID: <161227065858.23782.16726707030462738746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "L.S.Cousins" wrote: >1. I would have no doubt that Gau.dapaada shows strong influence from >Madhyamaka sources. > >2. That does not mean that what he says is identical to what they are >saying. The issue of Gaudapada and Madhyamaka has been debated so often and in such detail that I kept mostly out of it here. Numerous authors have commented upon the almost pada-by-pada similarity of gauDapAdIya kArikAs with the mUlamadhyamaka kArikAs. Given all the similarity, I think one should focus a little on where the padas differ. Those are the places where the different direction taken by the Advaitin comes out well. My point is simply that those who maintain that upanishads contain no idea of two-truths are quite mistaken. or already committed to some non-Advaita school of Vedanta. Beyond that, I agree with your comments about mutual debate and influence among Buddhist, Jain and Brahminical schools, and about the common historical background of Buddhism and early upanishads. After all the mutual influence, the schools have distinct things to say, and it is not as if mahAyAna is crypto-Vedanta or as if advaita vedAnta is crypto-Buddhism. I am amazed at the number of people for whom this doesn't seem to be clear! >>So also with respect to the sAMkhya-yoga elements in the >>Mahabharata, which are derived from the early upanishads.] >> >Well, that is more debatable. I think there is strong Buddhist influence >there. May well be. Except for the Gita, I haven't read the MBh texts in any detail, and I would not deny a possible Buddhist strand in them a priori. Best wishes and season's greetings to all, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sun Dec 24 16:56:20 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 00 08:56:20 -0800 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065868.23782.15005737217710367025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The scriptural Buddha never claimed sole proprietorship in his subtle mode of knowing, but to have rediscovered the ancient message and passed it on. In doing so, The Blessed One may well be regarded as history's earliest discernible chain-letter participant. Actually, The Diamond Sutra contains 'no message,' per se, as its efficacy (i.e., affirmations of merit) lay almost entirely in pushing the envelope. Nor does it posit any "higher" truth, as such, but functions rather as a de-bugging apparatus to conventional perception. 'The notion of Truth should be abandoned,' announces the Tathagata, 'How much more false Truth?' Interestingly, martyrdom is also hinted: "If a virtuous man or woman receives, holds in mind, reads and recites this sutra and is despised by others, this person who is bound to suffer from evil destinies in retribution for his past sins, and whose karmic sins are now eradicated by the other's contempt, will attain Unexcelled Enlightenment." Note that ever-faint textual signal-to-sound ratio for "despisers." Bon Noel VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Dec 24 12:46:14 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 00 12:46:14 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN] Upcoming changes in the INDOLOGY list. In-Reply-To: <20001223180234.29287.qmail@web704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065862.23782.14903097996871292863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the new year, the INDOLOGY list will be be going through some major changes. The list in its present form will be moving to another location. All members will be welcome to continue participating, and I shall be issuing re-subscription commands to the new list on your behalf, unless you wish me not to do so. (Send me a short note with "no resub" in the subject line, please, and no text in the body of the message.) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 24 13:06:57 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 00 13:06:57 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065864.23782.10441727955767063043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>We cannot rule out Indic influence on the Arab world. You would need >>examples from Classical antiquity. S. Farmer wrote: >Analogous concepts can be easily supplied from so-called gnostic >and Middle Platonist documents in the Mediterranean and Daoist >(also Neo-Daoist) texts in China -- all emerging about the same >time as Abhidhamma. Given the close links that existed between >exegetical processes and developments in premodern religious and >philosophical ideas, there is nothing surprising about these near >simultaneities. Are you saying that the Buddhist "dual-truth" is so widespread that there is nothing unique about it? But Gnosticism and Manichaeism have to a lot to do with Iran and India. Similarly Chinese Daoism was influenced by Buddhism early on. In Greece, interactions intensified during Alexander. There is a good possibility of Upanishads and Greek philosopher contact with ideas traveling both ways. Esp. when time periods for the veda and buddha are lowered. Do you know any examples from Greece that clearly predate Buddhist "dual-truth"? Regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 24 19:13:17 2000 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 00 14:13:17 -0500 Subject: Idealism and Yogacara Message-ID: <161227065875.23782.14585210559372324187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhr at UNIVERSALIST.SCREAMING.NET Sun Dec 24 14:51:33 2000 From: jhr at UNIVERSALIST.SCREAMING.NET (John Richards) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 00 14:51:33 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065866.23782.8467412575836495709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is one unquestionable Greek use of the idea of a higher and lower truth, well before the influence of Buddhism is possible, and the source, of course, of most of the western usage of this theme - including later Greek thought, Philo and Sufism. Plato distinguishes consistently between the Truth of Being ("that which always is and never becomes") and the only apparent reality of becoming ("that which is always becoming but never is"). It is moreover the distinction between Mind (Nous itself) and the objects of the mind. Any attempt to juggle the "apparent" pieces into a logical system can be at best a symbolic approximation to the Truth. Nonetheless "popular" religion is forced to do just that. People demand a "system", and above a "saving of the appearances" on which morality itself rests. It would seem that every religion that expresses itself in analytic (as opposed to symbolic) terms makes this same distinction, at least in its mystical tradition - perhaps because it is the truth which they have seen. As being is to becoming, so is pure intellect (Nous) to opinion - Plato, Republic 534 We must in my opinion begin by distinguishing between that which always is and never becomes, from that which is always becoming but never is - Plato, Timaeus 27 What is at issue is the turning round of the mind from the twilight of error to the truth, the climb up into the real world which we shall call true philosophy - Plato, Republic 7.521 What others call true reality, they (the wise) call, not real being, but a sort of moving process of becoming - Plato, Sophist "The One remains, the many change and pass. Heaven's Light forever shines; earth's shadows fly." is but the popular expression of this tradition. It has been suggested that Plato may have got the basis of this idea from Orphism, but so little is known about Orphism and its origins that even if this is true it hardly gets us any further. It does not rule out an ultimate "eastern" origin though. One thing is certain though, from the dates involved, that Plato could not have got this distinction directly from Buddhism. To suggest that it is merely a clever device to reconcile conflicting "commentarial" discrepancies is itself very clever, but hardly does the subject justice, even if there are cases when this is true. John Richards From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Sun Dec 24 17:37:31 2000 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 00 17:37:31 +0000 Subject: Power of suggestion Message-ID: <161227065871.23782.10965988401673751041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists! There is a passage in traveling notes ALTAI-HIMALAYA by Nicholas Roerich (about 1924) ...in the Malabar Hills dark persons may come and because of an unfulfilled requests will try to touch you, while they say to you: "Sahib will be sick" or "You will live onlyten days" If the organism at that moment is fatigued or if the will is weak, the command is fullfilled and one can remedy this only by a counter-suggestion. My questions are: How much truth there is to this statement? Have you heard or know first hand of any similar things? Is there a special name for such "dark persons" or this type of suggestion? Best regards, Dmitri. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 24 17:42:52 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 00 17:42:52 +0000 Subject: Naaraaya.nasuuktam Message-ID: <161227065873.23782.16124547915711343394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to S. Vidyasankar for giving the suuktam URL: http://sanskrit.gde.to/doc_vishhnu/doc_vishhnu.html. SV>Perhaps the above interpretation comes from virUpAksha. It is a SV>stretch to read the color red into this word, but there are those SV>who think that Urdhvaretas implies red (bloodshot) eyes, and hence SV>virUpAksha. The saivaite who recited this sUktam sung in all southern Shiva and Vishnu temples right after purushasuuktam, interpreted thinks like that. Is the taittiriiya aara.nyaka part of krishna YV? What are the likely century(s) for composition? First some centuries BC? -------------------------------------------------- For the nArAyaNasUkta shlokam, R^itam satyaM paraM brahma purushhaM kR^ishhNa pi~Ngalam.h | UrdhvaretaM virUpaakshaM vishvarUaaya vai namo namaH || the modern Swami Krishnananda on the webpage interprets "purusham krishNa piGgalam" as "the purusha of blue-decked yellow hue". It is a stretch to call Purusha as "yellow". Purusha is always painted black/blue-black in India, and never yellow. Two examples that I have: a) Narayana's vishvaruupam in his all emcompassing Purusha form painted "black", see the Bikaner painting, p. 217, B. N. Goswamy, Essence of Indian art. b) For an 18-19th cent. painting showing dark blue Narayana in his all embracing Purusha form, see p. 59, The eternal cycle: Indian myth, Time-Life, 1998. Old paintings depict Narayana floating on a fig leaf in the ocean depict him as deep blue using lapis lazuli and soot. Naaraaya.na murdering the Madhu and Kai.tabha asuras disturbing him from 'aRituyil'(yoganidra) is always painted black. See the paintings published where Narayana is painted pure "black" in the Marakandeya puraNa series. In the famous hymn, Naaraaya.nasuuktam, an appendix to Purushasuuktam, Purusha is equated with Naaraaya.na everywhere. Both Purusha and Naaraayana are "black" or "green-black" or "blue-black". Like Naaraaya.na's tejas in the Naaraaya.niiyam section of MBh. being compared with "aaditya var.nam", Purusha/Naaraaya.na both of whom are black (blue/green-black) in this hymn, but their energy and radiance is likened to lightning or gold or brilliant/gold like awn of paddy. Compare with the common black bee description in sangam poems,- "maNi niRat tumpi". Can we ever call 'tumpi' as yellow? Alvars sing Narayana sleeping on the serpent as "karu maNi". Of course, "nAraNan2" (=s. nArAyaNa) the tamil deity mentioned in ancient tamil works means "the Black God" who protects all the world. And, in India white is inauspicious and widows wear them. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0012&L=indology&P=39408 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0012&L=indology&P=20237 While this theme dominates in Indian culture in post-Rgvedic and medieval India, the Aryan ingression into India around 1200 BCE after the IVC decline and the earliest memories recorded in the RV portray a scene just the opposite. Memory? In the RV as well as Avestan gathic texts, black is a hated color and white is eulogized. And this theme, possibly a metaphor with anthropological happenings on the ground, gets into the Bible from Persia. Let me quote Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth, p. 65 <--- Bill Moyers: What about this idea of good and evil in mythology, of life as a conflict between the forces of darkness and the forces of light? Joe Campbell: That is a *Zoroastrian* idea, which has come over into Judaism and Christianity. In other traditions, good and evil are relative to the position in which you are standing. What is good for one is evil for the other. And you play your part, not withdrawing from the world when you realize how horrible it is, but seeing that this horror is simply the foreground of a wonder: a mysterium tremendum et fascinans. " ---> This black versus white dyadism, metaphorically merged with darkness versus light, is an Indo-Iranian heritage in the Bible. But Indians survived over time, and acculturated to transform themselves into Aryans. Still the clear distinction between evil versus good or black versus white is absent in India. The prime example that comes to my mind is the MahesamUrti image in Elephanta caves. Of the two focal points to the structural plan (the other being the creative power symbolized by the lingam) of Elephanta, the colossal Shiva Mahadeva has three faces: a) the gracious, almost feminine vAma face to the right b) the evil, destructive ghora face to the left and c) facing the devotee is the calm, meditating Lord's face. The message is evil and good are part of life/Shiva, and the duality is not played out loud in Indian art. Taking black which sometimes look green or blue as God cannot be part of the IE heritage. Not in the RV (a Vedicist told me: in some senses, the RV is the least Indian of Skt. texts). Greeks did not use green or blue at all in their arts! "How different nature must have appeared to the Greeks if, as we have to admit, their eyes were blind to blue and green, ... (Blue and green dehumanize nature more than anything else:) ..." (p. 182, Nietzsche, Daybreak: thoughts on the prejudices of morality, 1982). Merry Christmas to all, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 24 20:06:56 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 00 20:06:56 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065877.23782.15348596913547308712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Gorgons with tilakam on their foreheads, the one-eyed Cyclops have been suggested to come from Hindus. And, this predates Plato. a) A. David Napier, 1986. Masks, Transformation, and Paradox. b) A. David Napier, 1992. Greek Art and Greek Anthropology: Orienting the Perseus-Gorgon myth, 77-111, Foreign bodies: Performance, Art, and Symbolic anthropology, Univ. of California press. --- John Richards wrote: >There is one unquestionable Greek use of the idea of a higher and lower >truth, well before the influence of Buddhism is possible, and the source, >of course, of most of the western usage of this theme - including later >Greek thought, Philo and Sufism. > >Plato distinguishes consistently between the Truth of Being ("that which >always is and never becomes") and the only apparent reality of >becoming ("that which is always becoming but never is"). It is moreover the >distinction between Mind (Nous itself) and the objects of the mind. Any >attempt to juggle the "apparent" pieces into a logical system can be at >best a symbolic approximation to the Truth. >Nonetheless "popular" religion is forced to do just that. People demand a >"system", and above a "saving of the appearances" on which morality itself >rests. > >It would seem that every religion that expresses itself in analytic (as >opposed to symbolic) terms makes this same distinction, at least >in its mystical tradition - perhaps because it is the truth which they have >seen. > >As being is to becoming, so is pure intellect (Nous) to opinion - Plato, >Republic 534 > >We must in my opinion begin by distinguishing between that which always is >and never becomes, from that which is always becoming but >never is - Plato, Timaeus 27 > >What is at issue is the turning round of the mind from the twilight of >error to the truth, the climb up into the real world which we shall call >true philosophy - Plato, Republic 7.521 > >What others call true reality, they (the wise) call, not real being, >but a sort of moving process of becoming - Plato, Sophist > >"The One remains, the many change and pass. >Heaven's Light forever shines; earth's shadows fly." > >is but the popular expression of this tradition. > >It has been suggested that Plato may have got the basis of this idea >from Orphism, but so little is known about Orphism and its origins that >even if this is true it hardly gets us any further. It does not >rule out an ultimate "eastern" origin though. One thing is certain though, >from the dates involved, that Plato could not have got this distinction >directly from Buddhism. > >To suggest that it is merely a clever device to reconcile conflicting >"commentarial" discrepancies is itself very clever, but hardly does the >subject justice, even if there are cases when this is true. > >John Richards _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sun Dec 24 23:50:39 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 00 23:50:39 +0000 Subject: Idealism and Yogacara Message-ID: <161227065882.23782.2489573647208955567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lynken Ghose wrote: > The question concerning the idealistic nature of Yogacara seems to be a good starting point, as, from what I remember, the original central question was whether or not Advaita could be said to be influenced by the Yogacara and Sunyavada schools of Mahayana Buddhism and in what ways. [snip] > Unfortunately, I am not at home so I cannot post the passages that I am referring to. But, it might be helpful if people began to post the passages upon which they are basing their conclusions. An excellent project -- I would be willing to contribute my ha'pence worth. I note, for example, that many of the Buddhist authors cited by Satya Upadhya are actually pramaa.na specialists rather than Yogaacarins -- the Tibetan tradition which eagerly inherited and studied this strand of Buddhism did not normally classify them as Yogaacara but as some variant of Sautraantika. The other thing to note is that the Yogaacara schools are multi-layered -- there are considerable differences between the early "classical" Yogaacarins and the later ones. One also needs to decide the status of the La`nkaavatara-suutra which is often glibly quoted as if it were a Yogaacara text pure and simple when that is certainly not the case. Even within the narrow parameters of the first three patriarchs, Maitreya / Asa`nga / Vasubandhu, one can note subtle conceptual shifts especially in the case of Vasubandhu. This may be (disregarding the historicity of Maitreya) because Asa`nga was initially a member of the Mahii`saasaka school while Vasubandhu was Sautraantika -- each possibly brought different Abhidharmic perspectives with them. As a starting point, one might like to consider the well-known quotation, often cited to support claims that Yogaacara is a form of idealism: "Ida.m traidhaatuka.m citta-maatra.m / vij~napti-maatra.m". In this, is "traidhaatuka.m" an adjective or a noun ? If it is an adjective, what does it qualify ? Best wishes for this Sol Invictus Day ! Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 25 00:05:18 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 00:05:18 +0000 Subject: Naaraaya.nasuuktam Message-ID: <161227065885.23782.16863041822505213377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >For the nArAyaNasUkta shlokam, > R^itam satyaM paraM brahma purushhaM kR^ishhNa pi~Ngalam.h | > UrdhvaretaM virUpaakshaM vishvarUaaya vai namo namaH || > >the modern Swami Krishnananda on the webpage interprets "purusham >krishNa piGgalam" as "the purusha of blue-decked yellow hue". It is a >stretch to call Purusha as "yellow". > >Purusha is always painted black/blue-black in India, and never yellow. >?From Apte's Skt. dictionary online - meanings of "piGgala" [1] a.{a-stem} - 1.reddish-brown meanings of "piGgala" [2] m.{a-stem} - 1.the tawny colour; 2.fire; ... meanings of "piGgala" [3] n.{a-stem} - 1.brass; 2.yellow orpiment meanings of "piGgala" [4] f.{a-stem} - 1.a kind of metal; ... Agreed that Vishnu-Purushottama is depicted as dark colored in Indian art, but the word that is translated as yellow is pingala, and not purusha. The modern Swami's translation is on rather strong grounds. Also, Urdhvaretas is a name more easily applied to Siva, the Yogi, than to Vishnu/Krishna, and we know that virUpAksha definitely was Siva, in temple-building times. There are many things going on in this verse, not the least of which is the usage of the dative case (vizvarUpAya) after a list of accusative cases, surely a very old feature. The tatittirIya AraNyaka cannot be dated much later than the zatapatha brAhmaNa of the Sukla YV. Best regards, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Sun Dec 24 23:14:22 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 00:14:22 +0100 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065880.23782.9214531082545585489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, Greece, like Cyprus, was part of the ancient Near East. We should not draw an artificial border line between Greece and the Orient, nor was there any such border line between India and the Near East. Migrant craftsmen, healers, purification priests, diviners, etc. from the East were common in Greece from the early archaic age. Themistocles, who died at Magnesia in 459 BC, learned Persian many decades before Plato wrote his dialogues, and he would not have been the first or only Greek to do so. Greek poetry and intellectual traditions owe much to the Near East, and Herodotus attributed all kinds of inventions to Egypt (which comprised the Levant). Walter Burkert wrote in THE ORIENTALIZING REVOLUTION: "Culture is not a plant sprouting from its seed in isolation; it is a continuous process of learning guided by curiosity along with practical needs and interests. It grows especially through a willingness to learn from what is 'other', what is strange and foreign." Given the 'otherness' of India, even before Buddhism, I would say it is very likely that Greek philosophers would have heard about and been interested in early Indian thinking. Plato's forerunners Parmenides and Pythagoras "smell of" mother India. I do not understand why Plato (fourth century BC) could not have heard of Buddhist philosophy? What is wrong with my dates? Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol ---------- > From: John Richards > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" > Date: 24. desember 2000 15:51 > > There is one unquestionable Greek use of the idea of a higher and lower > truth, well before the influence of Buddhism is possible, and the source, of > course, of most of the western usage of this theme - including later Greek > thought, Philo and Sufism. > > Plato distinguishes consistently between the Truth of Being ("that which > always is and never becomes") and the only apparent reality of becoming > ("that which is always becoming but never is"). It is moreover the > distinction between Mind (Nous itself) and the objects of the mind. Any > attempt to juggle the "apparent" pieces into a logical system can be at best > a symbolic approximation to the Truth. Nonetheless "popular" religion is > forced to do just that. People demand a "system", and above a "saving of the > appearances" on which morality itself rests. > > It would seem that every religion that expresses itself in analytic (as > opposed to symbolic) terms makes this same distinction, at least in its > mystical tradition - perhaps because it is the truth which they have seen. > > As being is to becoming, so is pure intellect (Nous) to opinion - Plato, > Republic > 534 > > We must in my opinion begin by distinguishing between that which always is > and never becomes, from that which is always becoming but never is - Plato, > Timaeus 27 > > What is at issue is the turning round of the mind from the twilight of error > to the truth, the climb up into the real world which we shall call true > philosophy - Plato, Republic 7.521 > > What others call true reality, they (the wise) call, not real being, but a > sort of moving process of becoming - Plato, Sophist > > "The One remains, the many change and pass. > Heaven's Light forever shines; earth's shadows fly." > > is but the popular expression of this tradition. > > It has been suggested that Plato may have got the basis of this idea from > Orphism, but so little is known about Orphism and its origins that even if > this is true it hardly gets us any further. It does not rule out an ultimate > "eastern" origin though. One thing is certain though, from the dates > involved, that Plato could not have got this distinction directly from > Buddhism. > > To suggest that it is merely a clever device to reconcile conflicting > "commentarial" discrepancies is itself very clever, but hardly does the > subject justice, even if there are cases when this is true. > > John Richards From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 25 02:20:20 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 02:20:20 +0000 Subject: Naaraaya.nasuuktam Message-ID: <161227065888.23782.7390505073038687614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >For the nArAyaNasUkta shlokam, > R^itam satyaM paraM brahma purushhaM kR^ishhNa pi~Ngalam.h | > UrdhvaretaM virUpaakshaM vishvarUaaya vai namo namaH || > >the modern Swami Krishnananda on the webpage interprets "purusham >krishNa piGgalam" as "the purusha of blue-decked yellow hue". It is a >stretch to call Purusha as "yellow". >Purusha is always painted black/blue-black in India, and never yellow. << Agreed that Vishnu-Purushottama is depicted as dark colored in Indian art, but the word that is translated as yellow is pingala, and not purusha. >> >?From Online Monier-Williams: piGgala reddish-brown , tawny , yellow , goldcoloured AV. &c. &c , ; (in alg. also as N. of the 10th unknown quantity) ; having reddish-brown eyes Ka1tyS3r. Sch. ; For piGgala, the first meanings given in Monier-Williams and Apte is reddish-brown, and that will fit the nArAyaNasUktam well.For example, Even though Hari means both green and yellow, the standard color of Hari(Vishnu-Narayana) is *green-black* or *blue-black*. "paccai maamalai pOl mEn2i" - AzvAr "paccaip pacuG koNTalE!" - Kumarakuruparar Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 25 11:05:56 2000 From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 03:05:56 -0800 Subject: lIlA Message-ID: <161227065896.23782.10139109678993281589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Do we have a personification of lIlA (leelaa) as a playful maiden anywhere in vedic/hindu mythology? Regards, MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR! Dr Marina Orelskaya c/o Department of Sanskrit and Prakrit Languages University of Pune Ganeshkhind Road Pune 411007 India __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 25 03:37:16 2000 From: jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM (Jesualdo Correia) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 03:37:16 +0000 Subject: Idealism and Yogacara Message-ID: <161227065890.23782.5787489197916534551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Levi-Strauss said somewhere that at the bottom he considered himself a Buddhist. How sincere of him to have said that because indeed no other school or "religion" has a more structural standpoint than Buddhism, and in particular the yogAcAra with its eight consciousnesses. Not a monistic-monoteistic axis as an inaugurating source as we might assume, but rather a pluralistic radicalism. There is much more behind Hegel, Schoppenhauer and Levi-Strauss than what is generally taken for granted. Eight not seven, eight not nine. Hierarchical aspects of being in its phenomenological and potentially transmutable becoming. There is perhaps one telos. But the way is certainly manifolded. But before the law of seven ( which is in reality the very octave ) comes the law of three. The "Three natures" might also be an epistemological metaphor for that. Idealism in yogAcAra? No doubt, insofar the realm of the epistemological field turns itself around words and concepts-ideas- Die philosophen in den Netzen der Sprache eingefangen. And yet not, since after the madhyAmikas there should perhaps be no more room for giving them any aditional status besides that of non-existence. And beyond that, towards the telos, the way is paved through des-construction ( and inevitably through des-identification )and the method must be dialectical, negative dialectics. How could that be otherwise? A nice holiday to all. Jesualdo Correia _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 25 03:22:06 2000 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Prof. D N Jha) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 08:52:06 +0530 Subject: no resub Message-ID: <161227065900.23782.2968096907636929041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 6:16 PM Subject: [ADMIN] Upcoming changes in the INDOLOGY list. > In the new year, the INDOLOGY list will be be going through some major > changes. The list in its present form will be moving to another location. > All members will be welcome to continue participating, and I shall be > issuing re-subscription commands to the new list on your behalf, unless > you wish me not to do so. (Send me a short note with "no resub" in the > subject line, please, and no text in the body of the message.) > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Dec 25 09:06:32 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 10:06:32 +0100 Subject: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065893.23782.10789766203054688715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bjarte Kaldhol [SMTP:bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO] skrev 25. desember 2000 00:14: > Given the 'otherness' of India, even before Buddhism, I would say it is > very likely that Greek philosophers would have heard about and been > interested in early Indian thinking. Plato's forerunners Parmenides and > Pythagoras "smell of" mother India. I do not understand why Plato (fourth > century BC) could not have heard of Buddhist philosophy? What is wrong with > my dates? Bjarte Kaldhol here raises an interesting question: to what extent is India the "mother" of Greek ideas? I would like to point to Bruce Lincoln who in his book Lincoln, Bruce. 1986. Myth, Cosmos, and Society. Indo-European Themes of Creation and Destruction. Cambridge, Massachusetts, and London, England: Harvard University Press. discusses the ideas of Parmenides and other early Greek philosophers in an Indo-European context. As we know, there are at least three ways to obtain similar ideas in two different areas: 1) the ideas are part of a common tradition, 2) the ideas have spread from one area to another, and 3) the ideas have arisen independently in two (or more) different places. Steve Farmer has given an interesting theory for why 3) happens. Lincoln discusses criteria for 1) (as against 2)), and suggests that 1) is indicated by the degree of (linguistic) specificity. If you find formulaic expressions of great similarity in two traditions, and if these have been part of the historical development of the language (i.e. subject to sound laws etc.), then you have a case of alternative 1). Thus Lincoln places Parmenides and other early philosophers in an Indo-European tradition of which India also is part. As for 2), we have to consider the likelyhood that Indian Brahmins were willing to share their more or less secret wisdom with mlecchas. Some Indian ascetics apparently were (e.g. the "gymnosophists" that were in contact with Alexander the Great), and the Buddhists would have few scruples about spreading Buddhism to Westerners. But we do not have to assume that the early Greek philosophers were influenced by India. Many of their ideas are demonstrably part of an Indo-European heritage. All the best, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 25 14:19:36 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 14:19:36 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065902.23782.10599787790351028933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I guess what L. M. Fosse is alluding to is that if we allow Indian/Persian influences in Greece, many things constructed as IE by Dumezil et al. cannot stand. <<<<<< Dear listmembers, I have not read Bruce Lincoln's book and do not know why he places Parmenides in an old Indo-European tradition of which India is also a part. Parmenides' background was the Ionian Asia Minor, where Greek philosophy was born, in contact with oriental influences. Indian influence on Greek philosophy remains conjectural, but transmigration of souls might have been one such influence, see W. Burkert, ANCIENT MYSTERY CULTS, HUP, 1987, p.87: "Transmigration of souls is a doctrine that suddenly appeared in the Greek world toward the end of the sixth century B.C. We find the name of either Pythagoras or Orpheus attached to it, and we have the word of Plato that it was told in mysteries, teletai, and found 'strong believers' there... In addition there are the cryptic statements, to be found mainly in Plato, about the soul enclosed in the 'prison' of the body, being punished for unspeakable ancient crimes, waiting for release ordained by the god... It is all the more remarkable that beyond this evidence, which is concentrated in the fifth and fourth centuries, there is nothing to suggest that belief in transmigration was a basic or essential tenet of mysteries as practiced. There remains the impression of a 'drop of foreign blood'..." Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol, Oslo >>>>> _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Mon Dec 25 14:06:03 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 15:06:03 +0100 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065898.23782.230339439530369736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, I have not read Bruce Lincoln's book and do not know why he places Parmenides in an old Indo-European tradition of which India is also a part. Parmenides' background was the Ionian Asia Minor, where Greek philosophy was born, in contact with oriental influences. Indian influence on Greek philosophy remains conjectural, but transmigration of souls might have been one such influence, see W. Burkert, ANCIENT MYSTERY CULTS, HUP, 1987, p. 87: "Transmigration of souls is a doctrine that suddenly appeared in the Greek world toward the end of the sixth century B.C. We find the name of either Pythagoras or Orpheus attached to it, and we have the word of Plato that it was told in mysteries, teletai, and found 'strong believers' there... In addition there are the cryptic statements, to be found mainly in Plato, about the soul enclosed in the 'prison' of the body, being punished for unspeakable ancient crimes, waiting for release ordained by the god... It is all the more remarkable that beyond this evidence, which is concentrated in the fifth and fourth centuries, there is nothing to suggest that belief in transmigration was a basic or essential tenet of mysteries as practiced. There remains the impression of a 'drop of foreign blood'..." Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol, Oslo ---------- > From: Lars Martin Fosse > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" > Date: 25. desember 2000 10:06 > > Bjarte Kaldhol [SMTP:bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO] skrev 25. desember 2000 00:14: > > > Given the 'otherness' of India, even before Buddhism, I would say it is > > very likely that Greek philosophers would have heard about and been > > interested in early Indian thinking. Plato's forerunners Parmenides and > > Pythagoras "smell of" mother India. I do not understand why Plato (fourth > > century BC) could not have heard of Buddhist philosophy? What is wrong > with > > my dates? > > Bjarte Kaldhol here raises an interesting question: to what extent is India > the "mother" of Greek ideas? I would like to point to Bruce Lincoln who in > his book > > Lincoln, Bruce. 1986. Myth, Cosmos, and Society. Indo-European Themes of > Creation and Destruction. Cambridge, Massachusetts, and London, England: > Harvard University Press. > > discusses the ideas of Parmenides and other early Greek philosophers in an > Indo-European context. As we know, there are at least three ways to obtain > similar ideas in two different areas: 1) the ideas are part of a common > tradition, 2) the ideas have spread from one area to another, and 3) the > ideas have arisen independently in two (or more) different places. Steve > Farmer has given an interesting theory for why 3) happens. Lincoln > discusses criteria for 1) (as against 2)), and suggests that 1) is > indicated by the degree of (linguistic) specificity. If you find formulaic > expressions of great similarity in two traditions, and if these have been > part of the historical development of the language (i.e. subject to sound > laws etc.), then you have a case of alternative 1). Thus Lincoln places > Parmenides and other early philosophers in an Indo-European tradition of > which India also is part. As for 2), we have to consider the likelyhood > that Indian Brahmins were willing to share their more or less secret wisdom > with mlecchas. Some Indian ascetics apparently were (e.g. the > "gymnosophists" that were in contact with Alexander the Great), and the > Buddhists would have few scruples about spreading Buddhism to Westerners. > But we do not have to assume that the early Greek philosophers were > influenced by India. Many of their ideas are demonstrably part of an > Indo-European heritage. > > All the best, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Dec 25 14:48:35 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 15:48:35 +0100 Subject: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065905.23782.15179016625517312028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bjarte Kaldhol [SMTP:bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO] skrev 25. desember 2000 15:06: > I have not read Bruce Lincoln's book and do not know why he places > Parmenides in an old Indo-European tradition of which India is also a part. > Parmenides' background was the Ionian Asia Minor, where Greek philosophy > was born, in contact with oriental influences. Indian influence on Greek > philosophy remains conjectural, but transmigration of souls might have been > one such influence, see W. Burkert, ANCIENT MYSTERY CULTS, HUP, 1987, p. > 87: "Transmigration of souls is a doctrine that suddenly appeared in the > Greek world toward the end of the sixth century B.C. We find the name of > either Pythagoras or Orpheus attached to it, and we have the word of Plato > that it was told in mysteries, teletai, and found 'strong believers' > there... The following quote from Caesar shows that the doctrine was known among the Celts as well: The Druids habitually are absent from war, do not pay tributes along with the rest, and have freedom from military service and immunity in all things. ... Above all, they wish to convince people that souls do not perish (lit. "become lost"), but after death pass from certain bodies to others, and this they believe to excite courage most greatly, the fear of death being neglected. Beyond this, they dispute concerning the stars and their motion, the size of the universe and the earth, the nature of things, and the immortal gods and their power, and this they teach to their youths. [p. 149, oversettelse fra Caesar De Bello Gallico, 6.13-15] This question was discussed on Indology in 1996. I suggest you have a look at the mailings in that year and search for metempsychosis and transmigration. The fact that the theme of transmigration turns up in Greece in the 6th century BCE simply means that this was the time when it was first *recorded* in Greece. It does not necessarily mean that this was the first time it *turned up* in Greece! We cannot assume that Indo-European religion was uniforme, and belief in transmigration may have been one of several "trends" that survived in different Indo-European areas. When transmigration is introduced by Yajnavalkya in the ChandogyaUp. (I believe!), it is introduced as a "Geheimlehre". It may not have been a universal belief in any of the Indo-European peoples. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Dec 25 20:56:59 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 15:56:59 -0500 Subject: Questions about non-Tamil Jain, Buddhist and Ajivika beliefs Message-ID: <161227065915.23782.2113106482600181129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I need the email addresses of the following scholars. Paul Dundas W. J. Johnson N. J. Shah Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Dec 25 15:01:45 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 16:01:45 +0100 Subject: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065925.23782.4269657684338261112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer [SMTP:venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 25. desember 2000 15:20: > I guess what L. M. Fosse is alluding to is that if we > allow Indian/Persian influences in Greece, many things > constructed as IE by Dumezil et al. cannot stand. Another interesting angle! Since the Greeks definitely were in contact with the Persians (were did the Persians get their mercenaries?), there is no reason why they shouldn't have been familiar with Persian ideas. The question is: to what degree were they influenced? Dionysos was recognized by the Greeks to have come from the East, but that does not necessarily mean that he actually came from the East. Native Greek explanations of their religious cults may be quite mythological. On the whole, the Greeks seemed less willing to accept foreign cults than the Romans, although that of course does not prove anything either. It seems to me that religious ideas that are recorded outside the Mediterranean world (e.g. among Celts and Germanic tribes) are less likely to have been "imported" and more likely to be relics of a common tradition in the sense of Dumezil. Lincoln, by the way, is extremely critical of Dumezil. Unfortunately, any theory dealing with such early matters is likely to be problematic, and definite proof of one view or the other is impossible to find. We end up arguing about what is more or less likely. I think I'll leave it at that! All the best, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 25 17:07:49 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 17:07:49 +0000 Subject: Black and Bright and Beautiful Message-ID: <161227065911.23782.10406021159310896444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V. V. Raman wrote: >2. One may still ask if there are Tamil Brahmins who would name their >children karuppan? And if not, why not? Please understand that I am not >here to pass value judgments, to attacking or defend anybody, much less to >pick up a fight, >3. The fact is, black people don't regard blackness in the same negative >way as many non-blacks do. >4. Although classification does take color as a basis (at least in >its description), I rather doubt that prior to their encounter with the > the Tamils >looked down upon people with dark skin color. I have no proof positive for >this, but this is my gut feeling, based on my modest >acquaintance with classical Tamil literature. "C.R. Selvakumar" wrote: > As far as I know Tamil Brahmins, by and large, > do not name their children in Tamil. So it is [...] > I don't know whether this was the situation, > say some 1000 years ago. <<< Even a 100 years ago, it wasn't so. One common first name one can find among Tamil Brahmins of an earlier generation is Picchai/Picchappa/Pichumani. My father was officially named Sundaresan, but my grandmother called him Picchappa, at home. I know at least two Tamil Brahmin men named Murugan. Another feature was the use of double names, one in Sanskrit and one in Tamil. One of my ancestresses was called "aramaNattA pATTi". It took me a while to infer that this name was a version of Tamil aRam-vaLarttAL, i.e. Sanskrit dharma-samvardhinI. There is also a fairly high incidence of Tamil names among zrIvaishNavas, e.g. Kannan, Perundevi, and names ending in valli/vaLLi. Vidyasankar >>> I agree with S. Vidyasankar about the tamil names used by Tamil Smarta brahmins until very recently. Bharatiyar, named Subramanian, was known as Subbaiyaa among kith and kin. Justice Muttusami Ayyar, the first Indian to rise to be appointed to a High court. Sanksritist Kuppusami Sastri, The avant-garde poet Na. PiccamUrti, C. S. Chellappaa, author of one of the best novels in Tamil (vATivAcal - on bull baiting among Tamils, something like in Mediterranean) - all have tamil names. Among Saiva Sivachariyar brahmins also names are mostly tamil, and they are said to be a Tamil group who successfully claimed brahmanahood and produced most of the saivaagamas. Regarding "aramaNattaa paaTTi", it is possible it is the tiruvaiyARu goddess name, "aRam vaLartta nAyaki" who took 2 nAzi measures of paddy grain to sustain all the beings in the world. "aRamvaLarttAL" is sanskritized as dharmasaMvardhanii. Also, can "aramaNattaa" have anything to do with araNmanai ('palace') in a "little" kingdom (to use N. Dirks term)? Let me tell a funny story of how meanings of names change: In TirumaRaikkATu(=vedaara.nyam), the goddess name is "yAzaip pazittAL" which gets usually sanskritized in-situ as "vii.naavaadaviduu.sa.nii". St. Sundarar sings in Tevaram: yAzaip pazittan2n2a mozi magkai orupagkan2 pEzaic caTai muTi mEl piRai vaittAn2 iTam pENil tAzaip pozil UTE cen2Ru pUzaittalai nuzaintu vAzaikkan2i kUzaikkuragku uNNum maRaikkATE. Over time, "yAzaip pazittAL" became "vAzaippazattamman", and the local priests and stalattAr came up with an explanation that this goddess is particularly fond of bananas! Note that the area is fertile and known for banana cultivation. Tons of banana fruits are offered as naivedhyam to Her. T. M. Baskara ThoNDaimAn, I.A.S who founded Tanjore art gallery and discovered several Chola bronzes told the banana offering story. Similar is the Srivaish.nava tiruppati, oppiliyappan sanniti (oppili is the Vishnu name meaning 'One who has no peers'), but it was interpreted as 'uppili' the 'salt-less perumAL' and all offerings to Him are offered without any salt! Also, how vEdAraNyam came to have this name is interesting. In Tamil, -r-/-R- alterations are common. The village was named after deer as "marai-k-kATu"(=deer forest). It was a wild life area and this is clear from the county name in old Tamil inscriptions. The area is "umpal nATu" (elephant country) in inscriptions. Son-in-law = marumakan/marumAn/maRumakan. In tamil brahmin dialect "aattilE maaTTupoNNu eppaTi irukkaa?" = "ahattilE maaRRuppoNNu .." In old times, the tamil letter "R" was pronounced like english letter "t", In Jaffna dialect, english letter t gets transcribed as "R" (toronto is written in tamil as "Roraan2RO"). So, tamil 'maaRRu' having a pronunciation like "maattu" if it were an english word, became now: "mATTu-p-poNNu". The tamil maraikkATu/maRaikkATu was translated as Vedaara.nayam in Sanskrit, and corresponding temple myths with Vedas shutting/opening of the Shiva's sanctum doors was created and elaborated. Now, in that area, vEdaratnam is a common name just as praNatArtiharan and aramaLarttAL in tiruvaiyaRu and Lalgudi area kids are named peruntiru/sriimati. I am aware of another mistranslation of a goddess name. At mayilADutuRai(maayuuram), "abhayaambaa" is a mistranslation of aJcolaaL. This is a common epithet all throughout Tevaram, and mentioned specifically in maayavaram tevaram also. The literal translation would be like madhura baashiNi/vaacaki/vacanaambaa etc. If you read saiva tirumuRai, you will find that all goddess names come from descriptions of feminine beauty and her body parts. No aJcal/shelter there from the goddess. All editions from Tevaram that I have seen use only "aJcolAL". But the French inst. of Pondichery has retranslated Abhayambaa into Tamil now! Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Mon Dec 25 09:55:34 2000 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 17:55:34 +0800 Subject: Gujarati lapidaries Message-ID: <161227065909.23782.1750550844838035214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Can anyone give me a reference on Gujarati lapidary work? I am looking for information about where carved semi-precious stones are produced, and by which caste. With best holiday wishes, Ruth Schmidt -- *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Mon Dec 25 17:40:05 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 18:40:05 +0100 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065913.23782.10660814049070326452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, The Celts, too, looked to Greece and Asia Minor as their cultural focus. Five hundred years before Caesar's time, Ionian Greeks with the same background as Parmenides founded Marseille and would have influenced the Celts in France. One of the first Celtic towns (with a wall of mud bricks in Near Eastern style!), Heuneburg on the Danube (600-450 BC), already shows Greek and Levantine influence. When this large Celtic fortess was first built, Rome was nothing but a small group of villages made of wattle-and-daub-huts, but the first German excavators believed that Heuneburg must be Roman, from a much later period! About the middle of the sixth century, the Celts were subjected to very strong Greek and Mediterranean influences. One Celtic group, the Galatae, was invited to Anatolia early in the third century BC and formed a state there. So, Celtic traditions recorded by Caesar would no longer have been genuinely or exclusively Indo-European; they were "Mediterranean", that is, they were strongly influenced by the culturally dominant Ancient Near East, as were Etruscan traditions. For possible Greek contacts with India in the time of Pythagoras, see GNOMON 40 (1968), p. 8f. Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol ---------- > From: Lars Martin Fosse > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" > Date: 25. desember 2000 15:48 > > Bjarte Kaldhol [SMTP:bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO] skrev 25. desember 2000 15:06: > > I have not read Bruce Lincoln's book and do not know why he places > > Parmenides in an old Indo-European tradition of which India is also a > part. > > Parmenides' background was the Ionian Asia Minor, where Greek philosophy > > was born, in contact with oriental influences. Indian influence on Greek > > philosophy remains conjectural, but transmigration of souls might have > been > > one such influence, see W. Burkert, ANCIENT MYSTERY CULTS, HUP, 1987, p. > > 87: "Transmigration of souls is a doctrine that suddenly appeared in the > > Greek world toward the end of the sixth century B.C. We find the name of > > either Pythagoras or Orpheus attached to it, and we have the word of > Plato > > that it was told in mysteries, teletai, and found 'strong believers' > > there... > > > The following quote from Caesar shows that the doctrine was known among the > Celts as well: > > The Druids habitually are absent from war, do not pay tributes along with > the rest, and have freedom from military service and immunity in all > things. ... Above all, they wish to convince people that souls do not > perish (lit. "become lost"), but after death pass from certain bodies to > others, and this they believe to excite courage most greatly, the fear of > death being neglected. Beyond this, they dispute concerning the stars and > their motion, the size of the universe and the earth, the nature of things, > and the immortal gods and their power, and this they teach to their youths. > [p. 149, oversettelse fra Caesar De Bello Gallico, 6.13-15] > > This question was discussed on Indology in 1996. I suggest you have a look > at the mailings in that year and search for metempsychosis and > transmigration. > > The fact that the theme of transmigration turns up in Greece in the 6th > century BCE simply means that this was the time when it was first > *recorded* in Greece. It does not necessarily mean that this was the first > time it *turned up* in Greece! We cannot assume that Indo-European religion > was uniforme, and belief in transmigration may have been one of several > "trends" that survived in different Indo-European areas. When > transmigration is introduced by Yajnavalkya in the ChandogyaUp. (I > believe!), it is introduced as a "Geheimlehre". It may not have been a > universal belief in any of the Indo-European peoples. > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > Email: lmfosse at online.no From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Dec 25 14:01:25 2000 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Prof. D N Jha) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 19:31:25 +0530 Subject: no resub Message-ID: <161227065904.23782.10165739763921376011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm sorry "no resub" was sent by mistake. D.N.Jha ----- Original Message ----- From: Prof. D N Jha To: Sent: Monday, December 25, 2000 8:52 AM Subject: no resub > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dominik Wujastyk > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 6:16 PM > Subject: [ADMIN] Upcoming changes in the INDOLOGY list. > > > > In the new year, the INDOLOGY list will be be going through some major > > changes. The list in its present form will be moving to another location. > > All members will be welcome to continue participating, and I shall be > > issuing re-subscription commands to the new list on your behalf, unless > > you wish me not to do so. (Send me a short note with "no resub" in the > > subject line, please, and no text in the body of the message.) > > > > -- > > Dominik Wujastyk > > Founder, INDOLOGY list. > > > From kurundwadsenior at WMINET.NET Mon Dec 25 15:52:48 2000 From: kurundwadsenior at WMINET.NET (Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 20:52:48 +0500 Subject: Libraries with special collections on yoga and physical culture In-Reply-To: <016a01c06cea$eda5ff80$c49a09ca@ravi> Message-ID: <161227065907.23782.4651613040786554302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lubomir If you wish any info on Iyengar, please feel free to get in touch with me. I live in Pune, and will do all I can to secure any information you desire. Regards BCP At 17:07 12/23/2000 +0530, you wrote: >Dear Lubomir Ondracka, > >One of the yoga experts in the country is B K S Iyengar in Pune. If if need >to find out his address you may contact our Pune branch E-mail >mailto:mlbdpune at ip.eth.net for its details. > >R P Jain > >-------------------------------------------- >Motilal Banarsidass Publishers >41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar >Delhi-110007, India >Tel: (011) 3974826, 3918335, 3911985, 3932747 > (011) 5795180, 5793423, 5797356 >Fax:(011) 3930689, 5797221 >Email: mlbd at vsnl.com , mail at mlbd.com >Website: www.mlbd.com , www.newagebooksindia.com > >***************************************************************** >God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; >Walks in animals and thinks in man. >GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES >***************************************************************** >----- Original Message ----- >From: Lubomir Ondracka >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 2:05 PM >Subject: Re: Libraries with special collections on yoga and physical culture > > >> > Does anyone know of any libraries in India or elsewhere which have >> > specialised collections on yoga and/or Indian physical culture such as >> > wrestling and the martial arts? A patron would like to know. >> >> Specialised collection on (hatha)yoga has the library of Kaivalyadhama >Yoga >> Research Institute, Lonavla (kdham.com). >> Its collection is definitely not excellent but one of the best in India. >> -- >> Lubomir Ondracka >> ============================================= >> Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies >> Charles University >> Namesti Jana Palacha 2 >> 116 38 Prague 1 >> Czech Republic >> --------------------------------------------- >> e-mail: ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz >> --------------------------------------------- >> phone: 00420-2-21619356 >> ============================================= >> > > Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan Kurundwad House 10A Mangaldas Road Pune - 411 001 India ================================================ "Until the Lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter" - (Attributed to a Black African Leader) =========================================================== From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 25 22:57:55 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 22:57:55 +0000 Subject: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065917.23782.4819433154236868541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Bjarte Kaldhol here raises an interesting question: to what extent is India >the "mother" of Greek ideas? ... >which India also is part. As for 2), we have to consider the likelyhood >that Indian Brahmins were willing to share their more or less secret wisdom >with mlecchas. Some Indian ascetics apparently were (e.g. the >"gymnosophists" that were in contact with Alexander the Great), and 1. We also have to consider to what extent is India defined as the land east of the Indus river, and at what period of time. 2. At what period of time and in what regions is mleccho-phobia significant? Perhaps Brahmins in Kuru-Pancala in the 5th-6th centuries BCE did not consider all Central Asians mlecchas. There was, after all, some continuity with the then populations of Central Asia through the Gandharans and the Uttara-kurus. An idea can travel from one point to another via a number of intermediaries. 3. Still, re: transmigration/metempsychosis/reincarnation, it remains to be proved that it is a uniquely Indian religious idea that went west. Indeed, it seems like a very "natural" belief about life and death. Even Judaism has room for it. There is a debate going on in Israel and the USA, about reincarnation and the Holocaust. The Reform Jews have serious problems with the idea, while the Orthodox Jews seem to accept it. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Dec 25 23:51:57 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 00 23:51:57 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065919.23782.7013353411280364364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The black/white duality had an effect on America. The relations between Puritanism, Reformation and Early America is analyzed by Vic Varis. America's Original Sin: The Myth of Black Inferiority Vic Varis, Portland State University March 18, 1996 ? 1996 Victor A. Varis http://www.ciurlionis.net/varis/library/myth.htm _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Tue Dec 26 02:14:54 2000 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 02:14:54 +0000 Subject: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065921.23782.10195789500435984635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote : >Still, re: transmigration/metempsychosis/reincarnation, it >remains to be proved that it is a uniquely Indian religious idea >that went west. Ian Stevenson, M.D., in "20 Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation" tells us that the Tinglit Indians of Southeaster Alaska, the Haidas who live to the south of the Tinglits, the Tsimyans living on the coast of British Columbia, the Athapaskans, some Eskimos and Aleuts, all believe in reincarnation. Stevenson tells us : The Tinglits do not believe in transmigration of human souls into animals, however. They have a concept similar to karma linking one life to the next. They also believe (as in India) that people who remember past lives are fated to die young. The Tlingits believe in rebirth (old personality gives rise to new as old candle burning low lights new candle) as well as reincarnation (continuation of the same personality). Also, Stevenson does not rule out Buddhist influence, e.g., the fifth century AD voyage of Chinese Buddhist missionary Hwui Shan. (Stevenson terms rebirth a Buddhist concept and reincarnation a Hindu concept.) Elsewhere Stevenson says -- "As far as I know, the Jains of India and some Tibetan Buddhists are the only other groups [apart from the Druze of Lebanon] believing in reincarnation whose members also beleive in immediate rebirth after death.... The Jain belief differs from that of the Druzes in that the Jains believe the soul of a dying person goes immediately to a newly conceived body, which is then born after the usual period of gestation. In contrast, the Druzes believe that the soul of the dying person goes to the body of a baby born at that very instant." Perhaps looking at specifics such as those mentioned above in the theories of transmigration of various peoples will help trace whether the ideas arose independently or were transferred. -Arun Gupta From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 26 13:17:31 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 05:17:31 -0800 Subject: On the name Pitchumani Message-ID: <161227065929.23782.9002708219574676500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > Yes. Love for the child seems to overcome any > zrIvaiSNava misgivings about > potential association with zaivism. But the love of > parents irrespective of > sectarian affiliation also seems to cheat the evil > forces by sneaking in a > very positive "gem" to attach to the apparently > unattractive facade presented > by "pictchu/pichu/piccu". Emeneau has a long article in the JAOS of the mid 80's titled South Asian Onomastics (or the Onomastics of South Asia). I remember he gives examples of apotropaic names e.g., "vEMpu" etc. It might be interesting to know if he includes the "piccu" prefixed name therein. That this name is intended to be apotropaic seems to me to be beyond doubt. This name is found among Kannadiga's too as 'hutchappa', 'hutchamma' etc.. I wonder in the Kannada context if this name means a generic 'crazy' or ziva. Even among Tamil women, the name pichammal is quite common. Wonder if it is after ziva the woman is named or as a generic 'crazy' or a 'beggar'? As for the other point, Srivaishnavas imho do not avoid association with ziva/rudra altogether. For example, as part of the zrAddha rites, the rudram is chanted albeit briefly. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 26 14:58:36 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 06:58:36 -0800 Subject: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065933.23782.1892065596304304470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > It seems to me that religious > ideas that are recorded outside the Mediterranean world (e.g. among Celts > and Germanic tribes) are less likely to have been "imported" and more > likely to be relics of a common tradition in the sense of Dumezil. > > Lincoln, by the way, is extremely critical of Dumezil. > > Unfortunately, any theory dealing with such early matters is likely to be > problematic, and definite proof of one view or the other is impossible to > find. We end up arguing about what is more or less likely. I think I'll > leave it at that! Stuart Sarbacker wrote once: << There's an interesting recent article on the YS as being an extension of a Indo-European tradition. It doesn't definitively address language but looks at "cognate" themes in the YS and the Odyssey among other references. N.J. Allen "The Indo-European prehistory of yoga," International Journal of Hindu Studies 2, 1 (April 1998): 1-20. As far as I know there are suggestions of the YS being an extension of earlier Sanskrit sources (Hiranyagarbha, etc.) and its ideas being pre-Indo-European...but non-Sanskrit YS "text" I have not heard of. Have you found something to suggest this? >> Does Allen give examples of Yoga practices among Celta and Germanic tribes, OR just only Greek examples? Yoga can also be a term (IE?) used to describe a phenomenon encountered in India. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 26 15:05:04 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 07:05:04 -0800 Subject: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065935.23782.11493577788059455658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > 3. Still, re: transmigration/metempsychosis/reincarnation, it > remains to be proved that it is a uniquely Indian religious idea > that went west. Indeed, it seems like a very "natural" belief > about life and death. Even Judaism has room for it. There is a > debate going on in Israel and the USA, about reincarnation and > the Holocaust. The Reform Jews have serious problems with the > idea, while the Orthodox Jews seem to accept it. So, the transmigration need not be uniquely IE and confined to them alone in origins?? Dravidians or Semites or South East Asians could have had this theme also ?? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 26 09:20:14 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 09:20:14 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065923.23782.2245315238107216328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The black/white duality had an effect on America. Wow, this is a fascinating discovery. Who'd have thunk it? I wonder when we'll get to hear of black and white in South Africa! Perhaps the Indian emigrants to South Africa took this ideology with them, along with Vedas? Cheers, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Tue Dec 26 18:13:26 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 12:13:26 -0600 Subject: 35mm microfilm Message-ID: <161227065946.23782.2307301436113222911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > My main problem at the moment is getting certain microfilm formats converted > to digitial. There is a lot of valuable material on microfilm which is > physically decaying. We have some valuable material from Baroda here that > needs attention. Does anybody know of a state-of-the-art place where 35mm > microfilm material can be digitised without bankrupting the libraries and > museums we work for? Unfortunately, Kodak and Agfa don't make equipment for > 35mm microfilm material, only for 16mm, and they don't offer the service. We > have found a way of doing the job, but it requires a complicated routine. We > are looking for somebody who can do it more efficiently. > > Thanks for any help. > Yours, > Gunthard > gm at e-ternals.com I do not understand why 35 mm would be any different than digitizing other things. A 35 mm slide scanner is a standard piece of equipment and the software can easily give contrast inverted image to make it appear as black on white text. Then it is an image just like one from paper, although probably poorer quality. You can obviously put that in jpg format for image file, but maybe you are asking about converting to text or even native text. If native text is the problem, I may suggest a product we call "manual OCR" which is a special (Indian font) word processor that makes itself into only one line and floats just below the text that was scanned. Thus, you can very easily and efficiently type and edit at speeds much faster and more accurate (for a good typist) than any Indian font ocr available today. Please see information on the Indology web site. Go to "Virtual Archive of Indic etexts" page, then got to "Sanskrit Texts by Vedic Engineering," then to "full details of texts, fonts, and software available." Perhaps we can help you. Please let me know details of your situation: how many pages of text (what texts they are), what language(s) and exactly what you want done to them. sincerely, Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Dec 26 11:15:13 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 12:15:13 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065927.23782.9689139182012860086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta [SMTP:suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET] skrev 26. desember 2000 03:15: > Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote : > > >Still, re: transmigration/metempsychosis/reincarnation, it > >remains to be proved that it is a uniquely Indian religious idea > >that went west. > > Ian Stevenson, M.D., in "20 Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation" tells us that > the Tinglit Indians of Southeaster Alaska, the Haidas who live to the south > of the Tinglits, the Tsimyans living on the coast of British Columbia, the > Athapaskans, some Eskimos and Aleuts, all believe in reincarnation. The belief is also found in Africa (check out "reincarnation" in Encyclopedia Britannica). In other words, claiming that the idea spread from India is difficult unless we can show that there are specific similarities between transmigration beliefs in India and elsewhere. Bjarte Kaldhol may be right about the Celtic contact with Mediterranean culture, but Celtic culture also differed in some respects. We must remember that Druidism contained elements that the Romans saw as specifically barbaric (such as human sacrifice), one of the reasons why the Romans suppressed Druidism (there may of course have been others as well). The fact that cultures are in contact does not necessarily mean that they imitate or influence each other. There is still a case to be made for an independent tradition of transmigration among the Celts. After all, transmigration was not a *universal* Mediterranean belief, so there was no "selective pressure" on the Celts to adopt the idea. Nevertheless, Bjarte Kaldhol's data on the Celts show how complex this sort of discussion can get. The spread of cultural elements, just like the spread of linguistic features and vocabulary, does not operate according to iron-clad laws. Contact sometimes means a free flow of ideas from one group to another, sometimes not. The description of Druidisms that I have seen makes it in my opinion likely that we are dealing with a tradition not unlike the Brahminic tradition of India, and I think there is a probabilistic argument to be made for an independent tradition for transmigration. But without adequate historical data, we cannot be entirely certain of anything. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 26 14:13:11 2000 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 14:13:11 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065931.23782.13525124787281664733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Though varna (colour) is popularly understood in the Indian tradition to refer to skin colour, it originally referred to the four directions identified by white, black, red, and yellow according to which participants occupied their respective seats during the performance of a Vedic sacrifice (see Klaus Klostermaier "A Survey of Hinduism" 2nd ed 1994: 334. In support he quotes Dagmar Grafin Bernstorff, "Das Kastensystem im Wandel," In Indien in Deutschland, ed E.Weber and R. Topelman 1990: 29-51). _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 26 15:47:07 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 15:47:07 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065939.23782.15730744790926452450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. S. Tilak wrote: > Though varna (colour) is popularly understood in the Indian tradition >to refer to skin colour, it originally referred to the four directions >identified by white, black, red, and yellow according to which participants >occupied their respective seats during the performance of a Vedic sacrifice >(see Klaus Klostermaier "A Survey of Hinduism" 2nd ed 1994: 334. In support >he quotes Dagmar Grafin Bernstorff, "Das Kastensystem im Wandel," In Indien >in Deutschland, ed E.Weber and R. Topelman 1990: 29-51). Have not read much of Klostermaier, but some of his theories (for example, the RV several millennia before IVC) have not found much acceptance among Indologists. The 4-color var.na scheming is rather late. In early vedic, it is only aarya and daasa var.nas, white and black respectively. And, this white vs. black duality is absent in Tamil literature. Contrary to the views of people like Prof. Hock and Prof. Farmer, this duality idea is not universal at least insofaras India is concerned. Many, many scholars (for eg. Joseph Campbell) attribute the black vs. white duality in the Bible to Indo-Iranians. See M. Deshpande's note from the URL given below. <<< There is an "anthropological" explanation for all the color scheme mentioned in Mahabharata onwards. Take the case of the Rgveda and Avestan gathic literature. It has "white" against "black" dyadism well spelt out. Also, the aarya varNa vs. daasa varNa in the earliest Vedic material. The brahminical scheme of classification seems to have initially only black versus white dualism. Later caste classifications for plants, animals, and even for fish, ... flourish. Diighanikaya has an attack on aaryavarNa vs. daasavarNa (ie., white vs. black) leading to accomadation. See M. Deshpande's note on B. Smith's book on varNa classification of the Universe in India: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9604&L=indology&P=R4916 >>> Happy new millennium, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Dec 26 23:49:39 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 15:49:39 -0800 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065955.23782.4433620735130889137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote (reporting the words of a fictional MASTER COMMENTATOR, reconciling sharply conflicting layers of texts): > For the statements > 'X is Y' and 'X is not-Y' do not refer to the same but to > different levels of reality -- higher and lower. In revealing > this, I speak of the deepest, most secret, of all > Truths hidden in the BOOK OF ALL TRUTHS, which cannot err > or contradict itself." Stephen Hodge responded: > Apart from a form of the "double truth" approach, Mahaayaana Buddhists > and some of their precursors, such as the Mahaasa`ngikas and the > Lokottarvaadins, also adopted a strategy which implicitly acknowledges > the layering of texts you mention. According to this approach, the > Buddha is said to have a) never verbalized any teachings or b) uttered > only one single sound. The various "audiences" heard various > teachings appropriate for their situation. Thus, since the Buddha > never actually said anything, one can have a range of apparently > contradictory teachings without privileging any of them above > others -- they are all accepted as equally valid inasmuch as they are > suitable to the specific needs of trainees at different times and in > different places. Like "double truth" strategies, the common Buddhist hermeneutical strategy that you point to here shows up often as well in Chinese and Hebrew and Greek and Islamic and Latin traditions. In Western traditions -- where it was still common in Milton's day -- it is normally referred to (as elsewhere) as the "doctrine of accommodation." In Confucian traditions (to cite one of many pre-Buddhist examples), the doctrine was frequently justified by reference to Analects 6:19, ascribed to Confucius: "To those above average, one may speak of higher things; but to those below average, one cannot speak of higher things." Like cross-cultural variants of the "double truth," the "doctrine of accommodation" was a handy way of explaining conflicting stories or concepts in a sacred or semi-sacred canon. Its periodic reinvention in premodern civilizations can be explained quite easily without recourse to the idea of direct transmission. Let's illustrate it in action in one of its many early forms outside of India: Think of the case (e.g.) of a Master Hebrew Exegete who has just revealed to his disciples the secret truth that YHWH is formless, transcendent, a deus absconditus, etc. For convenience, we can place our scene near the middle of the first millennium BCE, when the idea that YHWH was a paradoxical being first appeared in wholly developed form in Hebrew traditions -- emerging from the integration of older anthropomorphic notions of deity fossilized in earlier layers of tradition. If YHWH is in fact formless and transcendent, the disciples would naturally ask the Master Exegete, why do we find Him so often represented in Scripture in human form? Why, e.g., do we see Him strolling casually in the Garden of Eden "in the cool of the evening" in Genesis 2:5 ff.? Enter the "doctrine of accommodation" in one of its many cross-cultural forms. The canon is not inconsistent, the Hebrew exegete would quickly explain. Instead, the places where the Torah represents God in concrete images reflects the fact that at times He has had to accommodate His message to the limited understandings of His audience. It is amusing to watch Galileo himself using this strategy in his famous "Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina of Tuscany" -- written less than 400 years ago! It isn't necessary to explain the systematic byproducts of exegetical strategies like the "doctrine of accommodation" (or the "double truth") by invoking cross-cultural transmissions either -- although (as I've acknowledged before) transmission was clearly involved in a minority of cases. Let's look at a generalized example of how exegetical strategies could shape the philosophical/religious ideas seen in layered sacred canons: What happened when such a canon, pertinent (say) to some mythical or semi-mythical eponymous figure, grew so large that it became difficult to reconcile all stories about that figure with one another? A dozen or so exegetical strategies were available cross-culturally to deal with this problem. While most of them showed up in one variant form or another in all literate premodern civilizations, path dependencies ensured that some of them were eventually applied to certain traditions more than others. Many of them (not all) had systematic effects that tended to accumulate in those traditions over time. A few of those strategies: 1. Close the canon at some arbitrary point and dismiss any texts that you don't approve of as "heretical." (The easiest method of all!) 2. Accept some "doctrine of accommodation" model. This temporarily let the canon grow without privileging earlier layers of traditions over later ones or one subtradition over another. (When use of this strategy delayed the closing of a canon too long, however, the reconciliative tasks of later commentators became even more formidable.) 3. Reconcile the conflicts through use of one of the many variants of the "double-truth." Alternately, harmonize conflicts by introducing an increasingly complex series of "standard scholastic distinctions." In either case, reality grew more complex the more often these strategies were applied. 4. Apply allegorical methods or methods of integration/abstraction to harmonize the conflicts. This once again generated "higher" or "abstract" concepts alien to earlier levels of tradition. Reality again became multilayered, with contradictory concepts assigned to different ontological or epistemological levels. 5. Alternately, assign contradictory stories or concepts not to different ontological *levels* but to different temporal *eras* -- along the way helping to articulate alternative models of time. The contradictory stories or concepts could be assigned to different historical periods in a linear temporal framework (e.g., in Jewish/Christian/Islamic "typologies") or to different eras in complex cyclical views of time (e.g., in Greek, Chinese, Mesoamerican, or Vedic/Buddhist cosmologies). Comparison of Eurasian and Mesoamerican parallel developments demonstrates once again that use of this device evolved independently in different parts of the world. 6. Assign contradictory stories in the canon to different Avatars of the eponymous founder (or to earlier "types" of the founder in Jewish/Christian/Islamic thought). Alternately, as in the case of Mahayana Buddhism, you might claim that *different* Founders (here, multiple Buddhas) were referred to in different canonical texts. In this special case, it wasn't reality that was multiplied, but the Founder himself! 7. Accept in a straightforward way the idea that all the contradictory stories that accumulate in a canon about a single Founder do, in fact, apply to Him alone. Once we accept this idea, we have taken an important step towards divinizing Him, since only a truly Divine figure could achieve so much in one lifetime. Cf. the _Gospel according to John_ 21:25: "There were so many other things that Jesus did, that if all were written down the world itself, I suppose, would not hold all the books that would have to be written." (Substitute "Jesus" here with "Confucius" or "Buddha" or "Laozi" or "Plato," etc.) (Alternately, if you accept some non-divine founder as the author of all the works that accumulate in a growing canon -- think here of the Aristotelian corpus -- the founder is transformed into a philosopher beyond equal. Who but the Philosopher himself (i.e., Aristotle) could write all those books?!) Does any of this sound familiar? Where *did* all those multiple Divine Buddhas come from in later Buddhist traditions? You certainly do *not* find them in early strata of Buddhist traditions. :^) General conclusion: People need to take a closer look at the exegetical engines that helped drive those premodern religious/philosophical systems. The fact that premodern traditions developed in layers was *not* "systematically neutral." To grasp the full importance of the transformations worked in different layers of tradition by the repetitive use of exegetical techniques, it helps to look at the process of layering cross-culturally and over vast stretches of time. You can't do that if you spend all your time studying single traditions in one isolated cultural region, ignoring all their close cousins located everywhere in the premodern world. Steve Farmer From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Tue Dec 26 15:33:56 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 16:33:56 +0100 Subject: Data migration / microfilm (was PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM)) Message-ID: <161227065937.23782.5294246843288186170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, sorry to hear about your problems in Oxford in the late 80s in connection with migrating your data. Actually, I was around at that time in Oxford, too. Wonder if we ever met. In any case, I can help you with the 5.25" floppies that you can't read any more. We run a professional data archiving and migration service here at e-ternals.com, and we can probably convert data from those old floppies to something you use, for example an ISO-9660 CD-ROM? Anyway, do let me know what you need exactly and I'll ask our team to see if we can help. Oxford has come a long way. People like Lou Burnard and Susan Hockey identified the need for normed, standard data exchange in the humanities very early on and were instrumental in the process of getting us normed! Most of us nowadays use the SGML ISO complex of norms. I generally encourage these norms, too, i.e. saving data in formats that comply with these norms. More information on SGML normed encoding is available from http://www.uic.edu/orgs/tei. A very good package for formatting data in such a forward-compatible way is Adobe Framemaker SGML, available for Mac, Windows and UNIX. I am not sure why you added the sentence about not believing anybody that data migration was simple, easy and so on. I think none of us on the list suggested that, nor did I. I did say in one of my last contributions to the list that the digital library will have to have many new competences, and so will digital librarians. It's going to be a new type of infrastructure. It's clearly a major challenge, which is exactly why we felt we needed to add a data archiving and migration section to our digitisation venture at e-ternals.com. Apart from trying to be good digital publishers, we are trying to demonstrate what a digital archive should be able to do. We benefit from the fact that we don't have to apply for approval from any institutional superiors. If we have a consensus here on technical issues, we can implement them without having to compromise. My main problem at the moment is getting certain microfilm formats converted to digitial. There is a lot of valuable material on microfilm which is physically decaying. We have some valuable material from Baroda here that needs attention. Does anybody know of a state-of-the-art place where 35mm microfilm material can be digitised without bankrupting the libraries and museums we work for? Unfortunately, Kodak and Agfa don't make equipment for 35mm microfilm material, only for 16mm, and they don't offer the service. We have found a way of doing the job, but it requires a complicated routine. We are looking for somebody who can do it more efficiently. Thanks for any help. Yours, Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Gunthard Mueller wrote: > > > What I personally envisage as feasible would be this kind of scenario. > > [description of migrating-on-demand of data from obsolete formats] > > In 1977/78 typed two chapters of the Kumarasambhava into machine-readable > format. I used an IBM card punch machine. I also wrote lots of programs, > and typed some other texts. > > I vividly remember running (literally) to the computer centre in Oxford in > the late 1980s, when I heard that they were about to discard their last > card-reader. I managed to hand my shoe-boxes of cards in to the > conversion service just days before they stopped accepting cards. As it > was, the main card reader had already been shut down, and my cards had to > be partly entered by hand, and header-footer cards had to be punched with > a hand stencil. > > The data I rescued from imminent loss is now on 5.25 floppies. I cannot > read them either now. > > I don't believe anybody who thinks data migration is simple, easy, or not > a major problem. Preserving computer data is a dynamic, costly process > which requires pro-active management. > > Cf. http://www.clir.org/cpa/abstract/pub63.html > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Tue Dec 26 16:54:30 2000 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 16:54:30 +0000 Subject: Black as Evil Message-ID: <161227065940.23782.17701723955558258546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If black/white dualism originated with the Indo-Aryans and nowhere else independently, then the same arguments apply to reincarnation/rebirth. -Arun Gupta From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Tue Dec 26 17:59:52 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 17:59:52 +0000 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065942.23782.2070326531052863018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:13:53 -0800, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: how the tamils received 'Dravidian >>ethnics' theory- with hostility. > > You wrote about "Padiri" Caldwell, and the hostility and riots against > the Reverend's theories. Is this so? Where can i read about them? > >Regards, >SM "At an early stage in his missionary career, Caldwell became interested in a toddy-tapping caste known as the Shanars (today called Nadars), and in 1849 he published a book entitled The Tinnevelly Shanars. It earned him considerable repute, but annoyed the English educated Shanars, who disliked his ascribing a non-Aryan origin to their group. Some twenty years after the publication of the book agitation against it was started. There was great controversy, and some riots occured, and the book was withdrawn from circulation" from , Politics and Social Conflict in South India: Eugene Irschilk: Politics and Social Conflict in South India From giravani at JUNO.COM Tue Dec 26 18:02:55 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 18:02:55 +0000 Subject: Black and white,Physics of Light Message-ID: <161227065944.23782.261872220720252983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Light reflects from white color. It does not from black color. If you are black in color and standing next to white color person for photograph, make sure that more light is reflected from your face. Otherwise you look dull in contrast to white face.The average color of people from the sub- continent is cloud color with real Gaura varNa (not white) at one end and the dark at the other end.In the past two hundred years many white people like British,French, Portuguese had merged in the Indian population.In the known history from 500 BCE forwards Mongolians,Chinese,Tibetans, Burmese,Turks,Parthians, Persians,Greeks,Shakas,Huns,Afghans, Baluchis, Pathans,Jews,Arabs,Yemenese,Omanis, Somalians,Ethiopians had entered and mixed with Indian population by thousands and millions. In the Persian army of the Achamanids there were soldiers who were fair in color and other brown/dark in color.The thick lip, curley hair features of some present day Indians could be due to mixing in the past 500 years.Was not Malik Ambar an HabeshA? Was not Siddhi of the fort JanjirA an HabeshA? Zoroastrian people have not enough representation on this list. In their absence, stretching the source of black and white duality and/or racism to their ancient books is in my opinion, unfair.I do not have to agree with each and every sentence Dr.Joseph Cambell had written although his writings are balanced.If in 500 BCE, Persians were of mixed color, then they were like that in 1000 BCE also.Efforts to imagine clear cut two colors(white for Aryans of Persia and black for non-Aryans of India)of the people in 1000-1200 BCE based on the current perceptions is far-fetched exercise.Extending the color duality to the colors of the arc angels (BrahmA, Vi.sNu and Mahesha)is going beyond limits of discussions on pre- history of India.It is natural for white, blond color people to show Jesus white and blond and Chinese to show Buddha with slanted eyes and dark Indians to show Lord Vi.sNu of dark color.If white people are proud of their color, so be it.If Indians have inferiority complex due to their dull color, then try to protect your skin from the hot tropical sun light.Cover your body as the ancient Indians used to do. Ladies used to cover their face with padara of their saries. Apply turmeric powder to face frequently. In my opinion,other than certain preference to the color of spouse of your choice, Indian people are not in general color conscious because within families there exist color variations.I had seen fair color Brahmins and dark color Brahmins.In the lowest cast of India, I have seen fair color and beautiful ladies.When I visit Vitthal/Rukhmai made of black stone and Rama.Laxman and Seeta made of white marble stone, my attention is not at their faces but it is at their feet where the energy of the Lord is focused.Millions of Indians pray Hanuman without ever a thought that they are praying to an animal.Do black people visit Satya-sai Baba because he is black in color? Do white people avoid him because he has hair like black Africans? Scholars have freedom to write anything they want. When it comes to the achievements of Plato, Aristotle, they are unique fruits of Greek culture and civilization. When it comes to discuss the achievements of the ancient Indian Dravidians, they suddenly become universal, some stratified, synchretic reconstruct, deconstruct, diluted versions sank in fabricated labels. Other people's history can start from Abraham, Moses the real historical(?) figures etc, but the history of India has to start from plate- tectonics, rising Himalayas, roaming dinosaurs in Gondavana and then it jumps to faceless Dravidians and white color Brahmins.Dravidian Rama and Krishna should be dismissed but only their color should be discussed. If Rama looks little fair in color, then bring him from Afghanistan. But then what to do Lord KrisNa who was real dark? Dismiss him as the legendary figure. Or at least place him in the history after the great hero Moses who rescued Jews from Egypt. Tricks afters tricks.My sincere request to all please read the descriptions of Lord Vi.sNu as it came in Islamic lore if you are looking for his color.Thanks. Happy New Year to all. From pradip2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 26 23:37:28 2000 From: pradip2000 at YAHOO.COM (Gabriel) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 20:37:28 -0300 Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers Message-ID: <161227055545.23782.639316823691732176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hey John, This is Gabriel from The Sanskrit Web Site (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3502/) I use your Concise Dictionary of Indian Philosophy. Congratulations from Argentina on your extraordinary work. Gabriel ----- Original Message ----- From: john grimes To: Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 2:20 PM Subject: Re: gifts for Sanskrit teachers > According to the Manu Smrti, a bhrtaka adhyapaka/upadhyaya works for wages > - an acarya receives daksina. Maybe (!) if one were to give up one's > salary, the gifts would start rolling in (!) Of course, it goes without > saying, that one must also truly be an acarya. Ah, the good old days - no > one has yet mentioned cattle, gold, land . . . > John Grimes > > >I must confess I am beginning to feel jealous of all those gift-receiving > >Sanskrit teachers. Does living in the west prevent a Sanskrit teacher > >from being eligible to receive such wonderful gifts? > > Madhav Deshdpande From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Tue Dec 26 20:02:02 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 21:02:02 +0100 Subject: Origins of the double-truth Message-ID: <161227065948.23782.12625013136563155445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, Like Lars Martin, I conclude that we have been discussing possibilities and not facts. But I cannot refrain from sharing another quotation with you - this time from A. Leo Oppenheim's immortal ANCIENT MESOPOTAMIA. PORTRAIT OF A DEAD CIVILIZATION (revised edition, UCP, 1977, now outdated in many respects, e.g. chronology). Oppenheim refers to the Indus Valley seven times. I found the references on pp. 63 and 65 particularly interesting: "Generally speaking, one may state that in this region [between the Gulf of Bengal and the Mediterranean, B.K.] some kind of osmotic pressure from east to west was effective from the earliest periods. It is well known that domesticated plants and animals and related technological practices moved through Mesopotamia from some far off center of Eurasian diffusion, possibly around the Gulf of Bengal. There are, in the historical period, unmistakable indications of trade contacts via shipping lanes between southern Mesopotamia (mainly Ur) and those regions to the east to which the Sumerian and early Akkadian inscriptions refer as Magan and Meluhha." (p. 63) [Babylonia's victory over Assyria] "coincided with the increasing pressure exercised by the Iranian peoples on Mesopotamia, a development that was in some way connected with the disappearance of whatever obstacles had stood in the way of contacts between India and the Levant. Even before Cyrus occupied Babylon in 539 B.C., the economic texts from the great sanctuaries in Sippar, Babylon, and Uruk offer evidence of trade relations that reached to the Mediterranean (Cilician iron) and even as far as Greece. Persian domination ushered in the first period in the ancient Near East in which the geographic horizon extended beyond the limits of the past". (p. 65) Mesopotamian evidence, then, appears to confirm the idea of intensified contacts between India and the Mediterranean, including Greece, toward the end of the sixth century, when we find traces of ideas like karma and transmigration of souls suddenly appearing in the Greek world "like a drop of foreign blood". Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Tue Dec 26 21:28:01 2000 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 22:28:01 +0100 Subject: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065950.23782.18355711090332669847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> definitely! Assuming direct influences seems to be an easy way out, besides: if reincarnation in Plato's writings stems from Indian influence, wouldn't it also be necessairy to explain why not other Indian ideas like karma or the zero have been taken over? erik Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > --- Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > >> 3. Still, re: transmigration/metempsychosis/reincarnation, it >> remains to be proved that it is a uniquely Indian religious idea >> that went west. Indeed, it seems like a very "natural" belief >> about life and death. Even Judaism has room for it. There is a >> debate going on in Israel and the USA, about reincarnation and >> the Holocaust. The Reform Jews have serious problems with the >> idea, while the Orthodox Jews seem to accept it. > > > So, the transmigration need not be uniquely IE and confined to them > alone in origins?? Dravidians or Semites or South East Asians could have had > this theme also ?? > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 26 22:55:32 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 22:55:32 +0000 Subject: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065952.23782.7780282035582018024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: When >transmigration is introduced by Yajnavalkya in the ChandogyaUp. (I >believe!), it is introduced as a "Geheimlehre". It may not have been a >universal belief in any of the Indo-European peoples. 1. bRhadAraNyaka up. In the chAndogya, the teacher is uddAlaka AruNi. yAjnavalkya does not figure in the chAndogya at all. 2. It is not transmigration as such that is secret. It is the path of the ancestors and the path of the gods that are first "secret teachings" and then it is knowledge of brahman that is secret. 3. Although a lot of things are labeled guhya vidyA, most of them are very open secrets. Nothing very cloak and dagger about it. 4. An earlier generation of Indologists believed that Indian belief in transmigration cannot be traced back to any text older than the upanishads. It is not important in the Rgveda samhitA, for example. They also saw a contradiction between rebirth and "ancestor worship". While I disagree with many assumptions that went behind these stances, I would think that an idea of rebirth arises naturally in religions where ancestor veneration (if not worship) is important. Any discussion of a direction of influence, from India to Greece or vice versa, has to take a stance on WHEN transmigration first became important in India itself. Vidyasankar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 26 23:25:40 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 00 23:25:40 +0000 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065954.23782.13542849476360671138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< "At an early stage in his missionary career, Caldwell became interested in a toddy-tapping caste known as the Shanars (today called Nadars), and in 1849 he published a book entitled The Tinnevelly Shanars. It earned him considerable repute, but annoyed the English educated Shanars, who disliked his ascribing a non-Aryan origin to their group. Some twenty years after the publication of the book agitation against it was started. There was great controversy, and some riots occured, and the book was withdrawn from circulation" from , Politics and Social Conflict in South India: Eugene Irschilk: Politics and Social Conflict in South India >>> I read Irschick a while ago. In the 19th century, the toddy-tapping caste of Nadars were being ill-treated. In their historic struggle to rise in the caste ladder, the right to wear blouses by their women in the erstwhile Travancore kingdom is paramount. A. Sivasubramanian, R. Hardgrave, ... have written on 'breast-cloth controversy'. There were caste wars among Vellalas with two warring factions: one side (conservative) claimed they are shudras, a (little liberal) side claimed they are vaishyas. Saiva adheenams supported shudraship. Because everyone was claiming something higher in the caste ladder, English-educated Nadars might have thought it's strategically important to claim Aryanhood. The 19th century caste tracts and they are sadly withering away. Irschick, and even Indians work mostly from the 19th century english newspapers, mostly they know no tamil or other Indian languages. Note that these rich Nadars asserted their membership in the coveted Aryan country club because it was important, but never opposed the independence of Tamil and Dravidian languages from Sanskrit and IE family. It's usually claimed that William Jones invented the idea of a Language family and thereby led to the beginning of Linguistics. In the West may be. But there are prehistories for the Language family idea. Tamil grammarians have always said that Tamil is independent of Sanskrit, and invented an alphabet for Tamil. Among all Indian languages, it is only Tamil that has a diiferent alphabet and order than that of Sanskrit. Tamils wrote several centuries before Jones that Shiva taught Tamil to Agastyar, just as he did to Panini with Sanskrit. Also, even a sub-distinction within a Language family was known to Tamils 1000 years ago: In Kalingattup paraNi, JayamkoNTAR notes the close relations between Kannada and Tamil, but even though he was frequenting Telugu country and Kalingam, he does not emphasize the close relations between Tamil and Telugu which are from South and Central Drav. families respectively (also, akanAn2URu). Also, Tamil grammarians while writing/updating tamil grammar, paid close attention to reading Kannada and Telugu languages and their properties, so say the ancient Tamil grammars. To me, the idea of Tamil being independent of Sanskrit, and Tamil's close relations between Telugu and Kannada show that the Language family idea was discovered by those Tamil grammarians. It was the teachers like Saminathar and Ramacandra KavirAyar who told Ellis about the independence of Tamil and its relations between her neighbors. F. W. Ellis wrote in English about the Drav. family's independence, and he took Telugu as an example (Tamil was too obvious) and made his protege A. Campbell write about the Dravidian family (whic is an isolate family in the whole world). Of course, there was substantial opposition from the Calcutta oriental establishment focusing on Persian and Sanskrit. Ellis wrote about Dravidian languages being present on the Ganges belt in 1816! Rev. Caldwell consolidated what Ellis began and it was he who formulated the three major language families: IA, Drav., and Munda. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 27 11:28:02 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 03:28:02 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re._the_so-called_=EF=BF=BDdouble-truth=EF=BF=BD?= Message-ID: <161227065967.23782.10567807761608117534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<"Double-truth" of higher truth and lower truth ? there's no more the difference between this and that, no more the intervals of time, no more the ignorance that separates us from anyone or anything.>> But aren't we rapping here truth seeking truth? I mean, the left hand knowing not the...? "Who?" ? say "What?" In any case, scholarship has nowhere to go with that. You'll just get accused of lighting incense, of staking out a privileged position, of propagating a cult mentality, or of being "womanish." But certainly, I concur, the "so-called double-truth" naturally seeks its feminine side. Yet, as far as these obsessive leaps of virtuoso intellectual-bravado go, they might rather be perceived as symptoms of a shrewdly contrived sample of unspecified critical mass aimed at deflecting general attention away from certain specific core-deviations. _It's a guy thing!_ While the tragedy, rather than dampen ones zeal, functions as an intravenous petrol drip to nourish the rampant cerebral fire. It is therefore imperative to assess our subject in its full array of its hypersensitivities, devastating manias, marked disinclinations to accommodate any form of insolence, _to adroitly make no sense_, etc. Still all and all, this brusque "sweeping stuff under the rug" routine has by now become particularly worrying ? Yes, appearing as it were with the Choral Accompaniment of well-waxed and well-honed meta-verbal signatories vigorously expounding the sound of one hand clapping. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 27 06:32:01 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 06:32:01 +0000 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065957.23782.11169535103322323270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the comparative approach teaches a few things otherwise unknown. However, I think one should make a distinction between accommodation as a purely strategic process and the kind of ontological and epistemological commitments made by Buddhist and Vedantin philosophers. There were many who wrote completely new texts, which were not meant to be commentaries on existing texts. Anyone who makes a philosophical statement about change and continuity, or universals and particulars, could easily conclude with a hierarchy of two-truths. It doesn't have to be all hermeneutical in origin. Now that Galileo has been mentioned, here is an example of "two truths" in science. Relativistic mechanics holds true for velocities close to that of light, but Newtonian mechanics holds true for much smaller speeds. The "higher truth" of relativity theory itself becomes the "lower truth" of classical physics, provided certain conditions are met. This simply falls out of the mathematics involved, irrespective of any strategic thinking of accommodation. Indeed, the theory of relativity began by rejecting key assumptions of Newtonian mechanics, and ended up showing that the latter was only a special case (therefore, a lower truth), while the former was a more general one (thus, a higher truth). Vidyasankar From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 27 16:16:26 2000 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 08:16:26 -0800 Subject: sa.mkiir.naa -- any examples? Message-ID: <161227065977.23782.3178776032758598107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Dmitri wrote: > Dear Indologists! > > Sanskrit word sa.mkiir.naa has a meaning in > Monier-Williams > > special kind of mixed riddle > > Could someone give me an example of this kind of > riddle? > The older the riddle the better. > > Best regards, Dmitri. reply by spshrma the word sa.mkiir.naa can also be written as samkeerna,as per nirukta theory of yask,means narrower one.if you find it suitable please do write to suryaprakashsharma. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 27 16:58:43 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 08:58:43 -0800 Subject: Questions about non-Tamil Jain, Buddhist and Ajivika beliefs Message-ID: <161227065979.23782.6740555164548874673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Any other details or works by W. J. Johnson and N. J. Shah? Yashwant Mallaya may know their addresses. Dundas doesn't use email much. But his Edinburgh addess: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9309&L=indology&P=R1428 --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > Dear List Members, > > I need the email addresses of the following scholars. > > Paul Dundas > W. J. Johnson > N. J. Shah > > Thanks in advance. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 27 17:06:44 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 09:06:44 -0800 Subject: Questions about non-Tamil Jain, Buddhist and Ajivika beliefs Message-ID: <161227065981.23782.16605127313228467460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Correction to my earlier mail. Paul Dundas e-mail: P.Dundas at ed.ac.uk The only other Sanskrit faculty at Edinburgh is John Brockington. --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > Dear List Members, > > I need the email addresses of the following scholars. > > Paul Dundas > W. J. Johnson > N. J. Shah > > Thanks in advance. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From jhr at UNIVERSALIST.SCREAMING.NET Wed Dec 27 09:08:07 2000 From: jhr at UNIVERSALIST.SCREAMING.NET (John Richards) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 09:08:07 +0000 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065963.23782.13600702950576536278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Let's illustrate it in action in one of its many early forms > outside of India: Think of the case (e.g.) of a Master Hebrew > Exegete who has just revealed to his disciples the secret truth > that YHWH is formless, transcendent, a deus absconditus, etc. Steve While there is much in what you say in certain circumstances, would you claim that interpretations of the Dancing Shiva image, or of Krishna as Arjuna's charioteer, or of the dismemberment of Osiris, or of God making man composite of clay and his own breath are just trivial "accommodation" of the sort you describe? Surely we must allow for the fact that all early religion is symbolic. People were used to "thinking in pictures", the abstract philosophic vocabulary was usually just not available, and it has always been the case that illiterate people are generally best taught with stories anyway. Does it mean that "primitive" stories are NECESSARILY more childish (and in need of "accommodation") than abstract analysis - or even, for that matter, necessarily different in meaning? In some ways symbolic stories can be BETTER for religious purposes than abstract analysis. They can "point" and stimulate insight, while remaining enigmatic and teasing - like a Zen Koan, for example. What you suggest is undoubtedly true sometimes, but it is far from explaining the idea of levels of truth. How is one to maintain both personal responsibility and causality? John Richards From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Wed Dec 27 08:32:15 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 09:32:15 +0100 Subject: 35mm microfilm Message-ID: <161227065961.23782.10743997401688267132.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Claude, we have professional 35mm scanning equipment here--the problem is that the Indian microfilm material (it contains a fairly large palm-leaf manuscript) which we are supposed to digitise is on a long ROLL... It's perforated film. The problem is that we are not allowed to cut it into individual 35mm slides. We have strip scanning equipment, too, but we are not supposed to even cut it into strips. On top of this, neither Kodak nor Agfa recognize the film type used for this roll. It appears to be of Indian or Russian origin. I have done a test using a top-end cold-system flat-bed scanner with a dark chamber transparency unit at maximum resolution, but the material comes out unclear. The optical resolution is not as high as with the dedicated 35mm scanner. So the current work-around is printing the microfilm material out on a microfilm reader-printer, in this case on A3 paper, then flatbed-scan that on an A3+ scanner. Obviously this is not only cumbersome but also turns out a much lower quality than if we were able to digitise straight from the film. The quality problem is compounded by the fact that just like with most microfilms, it's only gray scales, and very few of them at that, and the resolution seems to be about a third of what we are used to when we digitise directly from the original palm-leaf manuscript. Still, I would be extremely grateful for any information about digitising ROLLS of 35mm material, or news from anybody who has been involved in something similar. I've heard that there are massive amounts of Indian material on precisely this kind of film, and apparently it decays fast. Some of the material that was either filmed in India by German indologists or obtained by them from there has already completely disintegrated, as I was told by a Berlin scholar--the films just go blank over time. The earlier one can digitise the material the better. Anyway, thanks for any help... Gunthard Gunthard M?ller gm at e-ternals.com Claude Setzer wrote: > > My main problem at the moment is getting certain microfilm formats > converted > > to digitial. There is a lot of valuable material on microfilm which is > > physically decaying. We have some valuable material from Baroda here that > > needs attention. Does anybody know of a state-of-the-art place where 35mm > > microfilm material can be digitised without bankrupting the libraries and > > museums we work for? Unfortunately, Kodak and Agfa don't make equipment > for > > 35mm microfilm material, only for 16mm, and they don't offer the service. > We > > have found a way of doing the job, but it requires a complicated routine. > We > > are looking for somebody who can do it more efficiently. > > > > Thanks for any help. > > Yours, > > Gunthard > > gm at e-ternals.com > > I do not understand why 35 mm would be any different than digitizing other > things. A 35 mm slide scanner is a standard piece of equipment and the > software can easily give contrast inverted image to make it appear as black > on white text. Then it is an image just like one from paper, although > probably poorer quality. > > You can obviously put that in jpg format for image file, but maybe you are > asking about converting to text or even native text. If native text is the > problem, I may suggest a product we call "manual OCR" which is a special > (Indian font) word processor that makes itself into only one line and floats > just below the text that was scanned. Thus, you can very easily and > efficiently type and edit at speeds much faster and more accurate (for a > good typist) than any Indian font ocr available today. > > Please see information on the Indology web site. Go to "Virtual Archive of > Indic etexts" page, then got to "Sanskrit Texts by Vedic Engineering," then > to "full details of texts, fonts, and software available." > > Perhaps we can help you. Please let me know details of your situation: how > many pages of text (what texts they are), what language(s) and exactly what > you want done to them. > > sincerely, > Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu From jhr at UNIVERSALIST.SCREAMING.NET Wed Dec 27 09:40:27 2000 From: jhr at UNIVERSALIST.SCREAMING.NET (John Richards) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 09:40:27 +0000 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065965.23782.12006103485445224101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve As this quotation is hardly indological, I sent it to you off-list. Julian of Norwich says, for example - For in the Beholding of God we fall not, and in the beholding of self we stand not; and both these [manners of beholding] be sooth as to my sight. But the Beholding of our Lord God is the highest soothness. (Chapter 82) There is no question of textual "accommodation" here, but of two different ways of seeing man's responsibility. Most religious double level truth expression is along this line, as I see it. Best wishes John From jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 27 11:34:13 2000 From: jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM (Jesualdo Correia) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 11:34:13 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Re._the_so-called_=EF=BF=BDdouble-truth=EF=BF=BD?= Message-ID: <161227065968.23782.12526457075127722394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven Tantra wrote: [ snip] Still all and all, >this brusque "sweeping stuff under the rug" routine >has by now become particularly worrying ? Yes, >appearing as it were with the Choral Accompaniment of >well-waxed and well-honed meta-verbal signatories >vigorously expounding the sound of one hand clapping. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although Indology will always have to do its job, the conspicuously immanent truth remains that the real " double truth " always was and will forever be that there are two lines which should run somehow parallel to each other,one openning the way for the other: the line of knowledge and that of Being ( despite its epistemological or metaphysical ultimate denyal ).But for the hand be able to clap alone that of Being is undoubtely the very one which counts. Vij?Ana and Praj?A. Would that be possible to ontologise these terms in order to adequate things? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Dec 27 10:57:22 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 11:57:22 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065970.23782.351771847122287554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan [SMTP:vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 26. desember 2000 23:56: > Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > When > >transmigration is introduced by Yajnavalkya in the ChandogyaUp. (I > >believe!), it is introduced as a "Geheimlehre". It may not have been a > >universal belief in any of the Indo-European peoples. > > 1. bRhadAraNyaka up. In the chAndogya, the teacher is uddAlaka > AruNi. yAjnavalkya does not figure in the chAndogya at all. Thanks for the correction! I am away from my library and relied on my memory, which did not serve me right. > 4. An earlier generation of Indologists believed that Indian > belief in transmigration cannot be traced back to any text > older than the upanishads. It is not important in the Rgveda > samhitA, for example. They also saw a contradiction between > rebirth and "ancestor worship". While I disagree with many > assumptions that went behind these stances, I would think > that an idea of rebirth arises naturally in religions where > ancestor veneration (if not worship) is important. Any > discussion of a direction of influence, from India to Greece > or vice versa, has to take a stance on WHEN transmigration > first became important in India itself. This is of course the problem. Deciding exactly when transmigration became important in India itself is indeed difficult. Early kshatriya religion seems to have operated with a warriors' heaven not unlike the Norse Valhalla (again, I rely on memory and solicit rebuttals). But even if we are able to show that the belief is early, we cannot say for certain that it migrated from India. What we need is insight into historical sources or data that actually document the process, and such sources don't exist. (Compare e.g. the influence of Persian religion on Judaism, where the Babylonian exile easily explains how such an influence was possible). Failing that, we have to look at details in transmigration beliefs in India and Greece, and here we do not have a lot of data either. Consequently, all we can say is that belief in transmigration occurs among several Indo-European peoples, but only becomes predominant in India. Theories of migration have to be treated cautiously. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 27 20:25:05 2000 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 12:25:05 -0800 Subject: sa.mkiir.naa -- any examples? Message-ID: <161227065986.23782.13962199899731600911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Dmitri wrote: > Dear Indologists! > > Sanskrit word sa.mkiir.naa has a meaning in > Monier-Williams > > special kind of mixed riddle > > Could someone give me an example of this kind of > riddle? > The older the riddle the better. > > Best regards, Dmitri. dear dmitri, this word can be resolved using technique of nirukt of yask(an ancient book to help resolving typical words and getting their meanings.it can be read as "samkiirnaa" means a norrow way or norrower passage. there are many examples for this word. spsharma, ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Wed Dec 27 12:49:07 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 12:49:07 +0000 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227065972.23782.5258297880519856755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:25:40 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: ><<< >"At an early stage in his missionary career, Caldwell became >interested in a toddy-tapping caste known as the Shanars (today >called Nadars), and in 1849 he published a book entitled The >Tinnevelly Shanars. It earned him considerable repute, but annoyed the >English educated Shanars, who disliked his ascribing a non-Aryan >origin to their group. Some twenty years after the publication of the >book agitation against it was started. There was great controversy, >and some riots occured, and the book was withdrawn from circulation" >from , Politics and Social Conflict in South India: Eugene Irschilk: >Politics and Social Conflict in South India >>>> > > >Note that these rich Nadars asserted their membership in >the coveted Aryan country club because it was important, but >never opposed the independence of Tamil and Dravidian languages from >Sanskrit and IE family. We cannot expect ordinary people 150 years back to be linguistics and take positions on purely linguistic questions. The point to note is that it was a healthy reaction on the part of ordinary Indians to object to those who came to rule the country with the aim of plundering it (and within whose ruling classes Rev.Caldwell firmly belonged) and who thought that racially, religiously and politically Indians were inferior , and as an ultimate insult start to define, who the Indians are and what their identitiies should be. From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Wed Dec 27 19:07:40 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 13:07:40 -0600 Subject: 35mm microfilm Message-ID: <161227065983.23782.16951385761442716432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunthard Mueller" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 2:32 AM Subject: Re: 35mm microfilm > Hello, Claude, > we have professional 35mm scanning equipment here--the problem is that the > Indian microfilm material (it contains a fairly large palm-leaf manuscript) Dear Gunthard, I looked at my 35 mm film attachment, and like yours, it requires cutting film into 6 exposure strips. But there are several solutions to this. 1) Make or have a contact print made. This is done extensively in the movie industry, who's film should be higher resolution than yours, and the copy should be extremely close to the original if done well. Then you can cut your copy any way you like. (It might now be negative, but software should allow easy reversal.) 2) If you can find an intelligent and reasonable person in charge, they should recognize the jeopardy of the original and should be happy to let you make them a copy that will extend the life of their treasure. So either give them your microfilm copy (so you can cut the original) or set them up to view and print your digital copy. 3) modify your film holder so that the film can come out both ends of the holder. OR modify your scanner and have an appropriate 35mm holder made. If you have large quantity of film, this may be the best, least expensive, and most direct solution. If there is a university around that does semiconductor processing and research or some semiconductor research facility, they usually will have some excellent machinists who can design and make the needed adaptors. If you cannot get this done I may be able to help. Again, also, I am interested to know what type of documents you have access to and how large the collection of film is. Plus what the time frame for decay of the film is. (weeks, months or years??) Thanks Claude From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 27 13:19:56 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 13:19:56 +0000 Subject: Black and Bright and Beautiful Message-ID: <161227065974.23782.5931464469706368737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Vidyasankar wrote: <<< Even a 100 years ago, it wasn't so. One common first name one can find among Tamil Brahmins of an earlier generation is Picchai/Picchappa/Pichumani. My father was officially named Sundaresan, but my grandmother called him Picchappa, at home. I know at least two Tamil Brahmin men named Murugan. Another feature was the use of double names, one in Sanskrit and one in Tamil. One of my ancestresses was called "aramaNattA pATTi". It took me a while to infer that this name was a version of Tamil aRam-vaLarttAL, i.e. Sanskrit dharma-samvardhinI. There is also a fairly high incidence of Tamil names among zrIvaishNavas, e.g. Kannan, Perundevi, and names ending in valli/vaLLi. Vidyasankar >>> N. Ganesan wrote: <<< I agree with S. Vidyasankar about the tamil names used by Tamil Smarta brahmins until very recently. Bharatiyar, named Subramanian, was known as Subbaiyaa among kith and kin. Justice Muttusami Ayyar, the first Indian to rise to be appointed to a High court. Sanksritist Kuppusami Sastri, The avant-garde poet Na. PiccamUrti, C. S. Chellappaa, author of one of the best novels in Tamil (vATivAcal - on bull baiting among Tamils, something like in Mediterranean) - all have tamil names. Among Saiva Sivachariyar brahmins also names are mostly tamil, and they are said to be a Tamil group who successfully claimed brahmanahood and produced most of the saivaagamas. Regarding "aramaNattaa paaTTi", it is possible it is the tiruvaiyARu goddess name, "aRam vaLartta nAyaki" who took 2 nAzi measures of paddy grain to sustain all the beings in the world. "aRamvaLarttAL" is sanskritized as dharmasaMvardhanii. Also, can "aramaNattaa" have anything to do with araNmanai ('palace') in a "little" kingdom (to use N. Dirks term)? >>> A small note on 'aramaNattaa paaTTi'. Upon reflexion, I am almost sure that S. Vidyasankar's explanation may not be valid. The confusion may be because of mixing 'malai vaLar kAtali'(parvatavardhani) of Ramesvaram with 'aRam vaLartta nAyaki'(dharmasaMvardhani) of Thiruvaiyaru. Note the Skt. -vardhani commonality. While music giants like Tyagarajar are buried in Tiruvaiyaru, Parvatavardhani the family deity of Ramnad Setupatis who got the ticket for Vivekanandar to go to America will be to do with Ramnad Samasthanam. (I gave some old pictures of some Sethupathis to Pamela Price who studied the diaries of Muthuramalingasethupathi). PaTikkAcup pulavar has written the poor state of patronage for Tamil patronage because no more the Chera, Chola and Pandyan rulers, and many arts took refuge in the Ramnad kingdom. Women were given pet names aramaNaattaa paaTTi if they come from 'titled families'. I had some aramaNaattaa paaTTis too (kAlingarAyars, vANavarAyars, man2rATiyars, vENATuTaiyArs, whose inscriptions date to about 1200 years, colin makenzie mss., Bharata Rathnam ...,). 'aramaNataa' would have to do with some zamins, either as relatives, or high officials or with music, etc., Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Wed Dec 27 07:35:41 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 15:35:41 +0800 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227065959.23782.17982697248476360176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Double-truth" of higher truth and lower truth, Hinayana (Theravada) and Mahayana, Relativism and Absolutism, Buddhism and Advaita, This and That, Sunyata and Purnatvam, and the list goes on... Catch one, miss the other. "He who walks between boundaries is a man; he goes beyond them is a saint. But he who transcends the notions of both, his state of mind is unfathomable indeed!", says Kabir, the Sufi mystic! And when that happens, there's no more the difference between this and that, no more the intervals of time, no more the ignorance that separates us from anyone or anything. Radhika -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Vidyasankar Sundaresan Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 2:32 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: the so-called "double-truth" I think the comparative approach teaches a few things otherwise unknown. However, I think one should make a distinction between accommodation as a purely strategic process and the kind of ontological and epistemological commitments made by Buddhist and Vedantin philosophers. There were many who wrote completely new texts, which were not meant to be commentaries on existing texts. Anyone who makes a philosophical statement about change and continuity, or universals and particulars, could easily conclude with a hierarchy of two-truths. It doesn't have to be all hermeneutical in origin. Now that Galileo has been mentioned, here is an example of "two truths" in science. Relativistic mechanics holds true for velocities close to that of light, but Newtonian mechanics holds true for much smaller speeds. The "higher truth" of relativity theory itself becomes the "lower truth" of classical physics, provided certain conditions are met. This simply falls out of the mathematics involved, irrespective of any strategic thinking of accommodation. Indeed, the theory of relativity began by rejecting key assumptions of Newtonian mechanics, and ended up showing that the latter was only a special case (therefore, a lower truth), while the former was a more general one (thus, a higher truth). Vidyasankar From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Wed Dec 27 16:05:40 2000 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 16:05:40 +0000 Subject: sa.mkiir.naa -- any examples? Message-ID: <161227065976.23782.6999659614459615478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists! Sanskrit word sa.mkiir.naa has a meaning in Monier-Williams special kind of mixed riddle Could someone give me an example of this kind of riddle? The older the riddle the better. Best regards, Dmitri. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 28 00:09:55 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 16:09:55 -0800 Subject: Re. the so-called "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227065990.23782.10297055740340783964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesualdo Correia wrote: <<...But for the hand be able to clap alone that of Being is undoubtely the very one which counts. Vij?Ana and Praj?A. Would that be possible to ontologise these terms in order to adequate things?>> fundamentally there is no being. adding things won't reach it __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Wed Dec 27 20:01:52 2000 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 20:01:52 +0000 Subject: sa.mkiir.naa -- any examples? Message-ID: <161227065985.23782.6945204722445076959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the reply, SuryaPrakash Sharma -- now I know better what I am looking for. An example of such riddle is a Sphynx question: "Who walks in the morning on four legs, in the afternoon on two and in the evening on three?" What I am looking for is an example of ancient (about 500 BCE) riddle in Sanskrit (or any other language of ancient India), based on words having several meanings and, if possible, on two ways of splitting an untterance into words. Is there such riddle, used in works on phylosophy, grammar, rhetoric? I would appreciate a complete example. Best regards, Dmitri. From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Wed Dec 27 21:21:06 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 22:21:06 +0100 Subject: 35 mm microfilm / manuscripts Message-ID: <161227065988.23782.9087292978326503307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Claude, thank you very much for your thoughtful suggestions. Your idea about having a contact film done sounds like a good way to go. But before I go that way (after all it's another copying process), I'll try to explore the other paths. Unfortunately, we have already looked into the input part of our film strip scanning system (Nikon), and it doesn't look modifiable. But you are right, one should follow that alley a bit more. I'll get in touch with Nikon and check if they have an idea. Dr. Feistel (director of the Oriental Department of the Staatsbibliothek Berlin) has also informed me today that Xerox is thought to make a product that might work for 35mm rolls. I'll explore that tomorrow, too. In the meantime, I have been told today that I might be getting a film piece made with the same or very similar film type, and we are going to cut that up and check if our scanning system yields the expected quality. If that is so, we might get a second edition of the Baroda microfilm and then cut that one up. I am not sure how often we will have this problem, so I think I'll wait with investing in a customized scanner solution at least for the moment, and as long as we haven't fully explored the above alternatives. I'll keep you posted! What we have access to: we have put together a state-of-the-art digitisation system and developed special publishing software for digitising and publishing original Indian manuscripts and prints. We normally digitise directly, without microfilm. The quality with direct digitisation is infinitely better than microfilm--no comparison in fact (full colour, very high resolution, no or minimal loss of contrast, minimal light intensity, etc.). We have also developed a special algorithm for digitally blackening palm leaves that were not physically blackened. The result looks eerily like a physically blackened leaf, but without the damage that physical blackening normally entails. And: we can now finally PRINT unblackened palm-leaf books! We digitise them, blacken them digitally, then print them. The result is so good that some scholars to whom we showed colour prints of physically blackened palm leaves and some of our digitally blackened ones could not discern which one was which! We are able to digitise through glass panes, which was very difficult using photo cameras. We digitise without flash, in other words we don't "bomb" the material with very high lux levels. (The flash has the danger of starting chemical reactions in the material, which has so far prevented the digitisation of many sensitive materials.) We publish both the authentic (unblackened) and the digitally blackened versions together on digital media. We publish two types of media: (1) normed archive versions (normed data carriers, especially ISO-9660 CDs), (2) installation-free multimedia versions including special software for high-resolution zooming, moving the leaf on the screen, an autoreader that reads the palm leaf aloud (great for learning Grantha or Sarada, coming soon), flipping the page etc.; for Macintosh and Windows. We also commission scholars to write introductions and other contributions for the CDs. We pay royalties to the institutions or individuals who preserve the original manuscript, and to the scholars who contribute academic input. To make all this affordable we prize the CDs at only US$10,-- for individual scholars, and US$100,-- for an unlimited internal-use license for organisations (university libraries, research institutes, etc.). We are currently digitising many thousand manuscripts in India itself. Some of the manuscripts are very exciting, many of them never published before. We are expecting the first CD-ROM editions from these around mid-March. We are partly an Indian organisation, and we are very lucky in that many Indian institutions who preserve original manuscripts have already approached us and have offered cooperation. We have also got good relations with the German National Library in Berlin, and we hope that next year we will be allowed to publish some of their amazing treasures, among them for example the probably oldest existing palm leaf (we have already digitised it). They also have beautiful material like gold-and-colour miniature paintings, very exquisite, from the Jehangir collection. We have already digitised a sample. There are also wonderful birch-bark texts in Sarada script. We might also publish other materials, especially Chinese, Tibetan, Mongolian. Possibly also some very exquisite Jewish material. Similarly, we are in touch with other libraries, museums, archives and other organisations around the world for possible cooperation. Currently available are: (1) The Tattva-viveka by Pillai Lokacharya (13th century, Sanskrit, in Grantha script), discovered by Prof. M. A. Venkatakrishnan, University of Chennai in a manuscript from Melkote. With a preface by Dr. Srilata Mueller, University of Heidelberg. (2) A hitherto unpublished manuscript, a commentary on the Mudal Tiruvandadi of Pogai Alvar (100 Tamil verses), thought to be by Nampillai. With a preface by Dr. M. A. Venkatakrishnan, University of Chennai. This edition is in the quality check now, available from January. In preparation: a multimedia edition of the gadyatrayam, and a transliteration and a translation of the above Tattva-viveka. >From the Indian input, we think we might be able to publish roughly 10 to 30 palm-leaf manuscript editions per month, starting around March. We are also trying to help with digitising photographic material (positive and negative slides of all the sizes in common use), and we can also offer 16mm microfilm digitisation. Microfilm durability: Most microfilm material used so far has a life expectancy of around fifty years. The problem is that it is an analog material, which means: it is out of control, i.e. parts of the film decay without anybody noticing. There is no digital checksum or other method for checking quality. The material simply decays slowly, not unlike bad paper. Under good conditions it might last sixty years, under bad ones maybe only thirty. 16mm microfilm makers have recently pioneered new film types that are now said to last much longer. But as it is still analog material, I am skeptical. There is no way to prove such claims with analog material. There is also the problem of quality. Microfilm photography is a far cry from direct digitisation. Even now, most new microfilm material has a very low resolution, no colours, and rather limited gray scales. Some initiatives have sprung up that now place digital data on microfilm. That would solve the quality problem (i.e. digitise directly, then put the result on microfilm), but personally I am still to be convinced that these very new film materials really live up to the promises. We have had so many such promises about new film materials ("tapes"...) in the computer world already, with new magic tape types being advertised all the time as being super-reliable, but, as you probably know yourself, these promises were all very unrealistic indeed. In actual fact, no tape manufacturer in the digital world has enough courage to give a warranty of more than five years. Ssome DLT material makers give such a warranty, but some digital film makers only give a six-month warranty. It is much easier to claim amazing durability life spans if you reckon that people will put analog material on the film, rather than digital. If digital material decays, the user knows it has decayed the moment he tries to read the tape and it fails. If analog material decays, nobody can prove the decay. The manufacturer will claim the photography was what the film shows, and users don't have the technical material to disprove it. The other problem with microfilm is that publishing materials on microfilm is expensive, slow, and few people have continuous access to a microfilm reader. At best, you can get access in a library, museum, etc.; further, microfilm material can be printed on reader-printer machines, but not edited any further, the way you can with digital material. We have recently digitised a piece that was made of leather, turned black over the years, with Hebrew writing in black ink on it. Material like that cannot be microfilmed. But it can be digitised, and we were able to already read some of the text on the screen directly after digitisation, and with a bit of Photoshop work we turned the black leather into silver or light gray, while keeping the black ink black. Now we can read it beautifully, and we could print it on our digital four-colour printing machine. This kind of editing requires digitisation. If you want, I can keep you up-to-date on our latest publications. They are very useful for scholars who are working on critical editions, for e-texting projects (you can send the same manuscript around the world to your typists, for just a few dollars a piece), for learning Grantha, Sarada or other scripts, or just for fun if you like to see the "original manuscripts"! Happy New Year! Yours, Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com From hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Dec 28 08:04:51 2000 From: hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 00:04:51 -0800 Subject: Riddles (prahElikaah) in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227066000.23782.16392716129073262529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Examples of Riddles in Sanskrit --- This is in response to Sri Dmitri's question (quoted below): 1. If you are looking for 'riddles' in Sanskrit, they are called 'prahElikaah'; ( 'prahElayati = abhipraayam sUchayati'; "vyakthIkRutya kamapyartham, svarUpArthasya gOpanaat| yatra baahyaantaraavarthii, kathyatE sA prahElikaa||") 2. And, one source for them is the book 'subhaashita-ratna-bhandaagaram' (edited by Sri Narayana Raama Acharya, Chaukhamba Samskrita PratishThaana, Delhi, 1991 Edition) which lists thirty nine (39) different Sanskrit riddles , which are from various sources, in shloka format (with answers) on page 184 through 186. 3. Also, one good example for riddles occurs in Rgveda: "dvaa suparNaa sayujaa sakhaayaa, samaanam vRukSham pari ShasvajaatE| thayOr anyah pippalam svaadvatti anashannan anyO abhi chaakashiiti|" (Rgveda 1.164.20; atharva vEda 9.9.20; mundaka upanishat 3.1.1; nirukta 14.30; shEtashvatara upa. 4.6; etc) 4. Please check Book iii of 'kaavyaadarsha' of Dandin (7th Century) you may get some examples of riddles there! Good Luck! -Harihareswara, Stockton, California. ===== Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:01:52 +0000 From: Dmitri Subject: Re: sa.mkiir.naa -- any examples? [...] An example of such riddle is a Sphynx question: "Who walks in the morning on four legs, in the afternoon on two and in the evening on three?" What I am looking for is an example of ancient (about 500 BCE) riddle in Sanskrit (or any other language of ancient India), based on words having several meanings and, if possible, on two ways of splitting an untterance into words. Is there such riddle, used in works on phylosophy, grammar, rhetoric? I would appreciate a complete example. Best regards, Dmitri. ------------------------------ From zydenbos at GMX.LI Thu Dec 28 00:06:32 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 01:06:32 +0100 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066069.23782.8487599239306283977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan schrieb am Wed, 27 Dec 2000: > Now that Galileo has been mentioned, here is an example > of "two truths" in science. Relativistic mechanics holds > true for velocities close to that of light, but Newtonian > mechanics holds true for much smaller speeds. The "higher > truth" of relativity theory itself becomes the "lower > truth" of classical physics, provided certain conditions > are met. This simply falls out of the mathematics involved, > irrespective of any strategic thinking of accommodation. > Indeed, the theory of relativity began by rejecting key > assumptions of Newtonian mechanics, and ended up showing > that the latter was only a special case (therefore, a > lower truth), while the former was a more general one > (thus, a higher truth). Is this not a confusing of two different types of "two-truth theories"? In the case of Newton and Einstein, the later theory includes the earlier without declaring the earlier theory false. (This is rather like the Jaina two-truth theory comprising vavahaara- and parama.t.tha-.naya, as elaborated by Kundakundaacaarya, which I have not yet seen mentioned in this discussion.) As I have understood them, the Advaitin and Madhyamaka theories declare that there is a merely apparent truth and a real truth, and the former is declared false (cf. the metaphors of the snake and the rope, etc.). RZ From girish_bvb at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 28 10:25:20 2000 From: girish_bvb at YAHOO.COM (Girish Bhaskaruni) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 02:25:20 -0800 Subject: PASUPATHI SEAL IN MOHENJODARO Message-ID: <161227066012.23782.16348756137720647268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DEAR FRIENDS, I invite your opinions regarding the pasupathi seal discovered in Mohenjodaro.The seal contained the figure of a man in yogic posture(siddhasana), with animals around him(tiger, rhino, elephant etc.).hewas wearing a head dress with three horns. Sir Mortimer Wheeler identified him as Pasupathi, the Proto Siva for the following reasons: 1.Lord Siva is termed as Pasupathi in Aagamas. 2.The head dress resembles Trident of Lord Siva. 3. The man is in Yogic Posture and Lord Siva is a Yogi and he will be meditating in Yogic Posture on Mount Kailasa. My question is, "Is he really Proto Siva??". If we study the other seals of Harappan Civilisation we find that all the figures on the seals who are identified as gods or goddesses have the head dress with three horns. the head dress of Mother Goddess (clay figures) if we see from front it appears with three horns. The concept of Pasupathi was developed later in Aagamas and it in not an ancient concept.For example in Rgveda the God Rudra is not associated with Pasus (animals). With best wishes girish __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From giravani at JUNO.COM Thu Dec 28 03:02:50 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 03:02:50 +0000 Subject: Double truth etc Message-ID: <161227065995.23782.2199165037066467177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am delighted to read the interesting contributions by the list members. Sant Kabir said"The one who walks between the boundaries is a man". In this sense Man is called "Nara" the one who has arrived at the "intermediate boundary". From here "NArAya.NA" is close if he makes efforts to go beyond (Ayana). I like the concrete examples of Einstin's and Newton's theories in connection with "double truth".Could any one kindly suggest Sanskrit terms for Ontology(Theory of Being) and Epistemology(Theory of Knowledge)? To me there is no double truth in Formless YHWH and "YHWH walking in the Garden of AEden".Yahu god came from the East. There were singers of songs of Yahu god in the middle-east before Jewish traditions.He broke the rocks and brought out waters.In the East where the Heaven met the Earth,in the North was the Garden of Heaven and in the South was the Garden of AEden. "Hafta bolA ki yaha mera HaftA Alla hai" "Jamin boli ki yeh mera KAlA Kamalivala hai" [Heaven said this is my Heavenly God, Earth said this is my black blanketvala God].This is not "SUfi or "goofy". It becomes straight when one gets rid of antropological "Mumbo-Jumbo" as applied to the traditions of the ancient East. What is the difference between "VijqAna" and "PrajqA" or "PrajqAna"? Both mean intelligence, knowledge etc. Sometimes "PrajqA" is used for "judgement" (wrong or right?)I have difficulty in understanding the difference between "Dharma" and "Abhidharma"? Where you use one and where the other" In the same way what is the difference between "Sandhi" and "Abhisandhi"? For a long time in the West,philosophy was thought to be concerned with the established truths of a very general kind, with metaphysics and ethics, with other truths to be arrived at through the power of reasoning. In this scheme, philosophy of language occupied no important place. Since Descartes, it was noticed that the starting point of the subject was epistemology. Later some analytical philosophers believed that"philosophy of language" in a specific sense should constitute the starting point of philosophical studies. In a specific sense, the philosophy of language was part of Indian philosophical activity from the beginning of its history (B.K.Matilal-The Word and the World). At times almost excessive preoccupation with language on the one hand and with philosophy on the other,may indeed be regarded as characteristic of Indian civilization(Staal,1969, Sanskrit Philosophy of Language). What is the result of this preoccupation of 2500 years of known history? We got stuck on"Shabda" and "Shabda-pramA.NA" when others reached the Moon.For the past 150 years,the alien scholarship has created a new amusement game for us called Sanskrit-Dravidian EtymA-rAmA. My suggestion is this-Perform Yajnya, recite Vedic Mantras, kill a goat and produce a mouse out of the Yajnya Fire. Efficiency = mouse/goat < 1. It is better than dry discussions of 2500 years. If it is magic(science of magi-Maghavan-Indra), so be it! From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 28 11:05:35 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 03:05:35 -0800 Subject: the shocking truth Message-ID: <161227066014.23782.5355035286853213155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> <> ?exactly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Thu Dec 28 04:25:47 2000 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 04:25:47 +0000 Subject: Double truth etc Message-ID: <161227065997.23782.17876675765719402097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 03:02:50 +0000, Narayan R.Joshi wrote: >For a long time in the West,philosophy was thought to be concerned with the >established truths of a very general kind, with metaphysics and ethics, >with other truths to be arrived at through the power of reasoning. It seems that similar ideas about "western" phylosophy and science are at the bottom of many heated arguments on this list and outside of it. I think this view of "western" phylosophy is inaccurate. The "western" phylosophy was and is concerned primarily with uncertainties -- with the major goal of clarifying those to a degree that allows application of logic. Here is a quote from B.Russell that expresses it clearly: ...those questions which are already capable of definite answers are placed in the sciences, while those only to which, at present, no definite answer can be given, remain to form the residue which is called philosophy. Thus, "western" phylosophy is the art of designing questions that might move the subject of phylosophical inquiry into the area of science. As a result of this, phylosophy remains forever concerned with uncertainties while the body of scientific knowledge constantly increases. It is interesting to know if such dichotomy "phylosophy-sciences" existed in Indian intellectual tradition. This dichotomy appear to exists de-facto already in ancient Greece. Best regards, Dmitri. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 28 15:29:22 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 07:29:22 -0800 Subject: Double truths etc. Message-ID: <161227066022.23782.3403217898183708084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Narayan Joshi wrote: >What is the result of this preoccupation of 2500 years of known history? We >got stuck on"Shabda" and "Shabda-pramA.NA" when others reached the Moon.For >the past 150 years,the alien scholarship has created a new amusement game >for us called Sanskrit-Dravidian EtymA-rAmA. My suggestion is this-Perform >Yajnya, recite Vedic Mantras, kill a goat and produce a mouse out of the >Yajnya Fire. Efficiency = mouse/goat < 1. It is better than dry discussions >of 2500 years. If it is magic(science of magi-Maghavan-Indra), so be it! The main problem is non-willingness to accept the existence of Dravidian and Munda families independent of IA. Let me give 2 quotes from Prof. Witzel, (the entire message forwarded is attached). <<< In ultimate reduction and analysis, these guys just cannot stomach it, --as you compared about la douce France--, that one (accidental/incidental political) entity like present (France or China or the USA or) India might comprise several language families. What is the big loss? What about the Swiss who thrive on it? >>> <<< Hindutva proponents generally cannot stomach that a country as large as India (not to speak of the whole subcontinent) should have languages that do not belong to the "Sanskrit group". >>> ------------------------------ Guillaume, Honestly, I think you waste your valuable time arguing with (most of) these guys. As you have seen some month(s) ago, many/most of them have no idea about [comparative] linguistics -- or even of several non_Indian languages as such! I pointed out the relevant linguistic literature --Beekes, Szemerenyi etc.-- politely and privately to (dr.!) Kalyanaraman, -- who, a year later, still writes nonsense like this : >>The basic methodological problem >> with linguistics as it has evolved is this: excessive reliance upon >> phonetics and some intimations of morphology and grammatical >> structures. It would appear, that this discpline is flawed because >> adequate methodologies have not been evolved to delineate or >measure, >> 'semantic structures and semantic distances' between languages. The man either does not read these basic introductions or does not understand them. He simply is not to be 'taught': we (Archaeology & Skt.) had invited him, on his insistence, to Harvard some 2-3 years ago. Meadow and I then still had the (vain) hope that we might be able to tell him about thorough and solid methods and that he could/would use his time & computer, not just for aberrant fantasies about Soma = electrum but for some real archaeological or linguistic work on the Indus period -- even if this would be just a website like the very useful(!) and well-organized harappa.com, which is run by an arch. amateur/afficionado as well. Well, K. came, plus followers, and talked to us, in baseball cap and all.... and I have never heard a more *confused* presentation, jumping from one topic to the next, and backwards. With no inherent logic, conclusions, results (a mess, just like the web site). In fact, I do not remember ONE single *useful* item from that talk. Of course, as always, we were polite, we had a long discussion, and we still *tried* to talk about methodologies... He readily "agreed", but you now see his 'results' all over the list/Sarasvati website! One of my colleagues left in a huff, and I got 'scolded' for inviting such a hopeless fellow... Well, hope springs eternal... Repetition of prejudice does not make up for inside knowledge. So, you are right: >No, you really don't get the point. (In addition he now is 'pissed' -- to speak American -- that Farmer & I included him in a list of revisionists & Hindutva people ... he should feel honored instead, from his point of view! At any rate, I am amused to see that in every other message he now refers to our "yellow journalism" in "glossy magazines" (Le renard et les raisins?) and that even the widely used Kyoto-Harvard transcription (used even for Tamil with a few additional signs...) is 'bad'. Who cares? The users decide as long as the America-centric lower ASCII survives. ) Again: these guys still do no get it AT ALL about comp.ling.: first, human speech organs-based sound correspondences/laws and language family-typical grammatical formantia, only then syntax, and finally, even less of [single word] semantics (which is, with Kalyanaraman, an excuse to correlate anything with anything, in Indian languages, that looks vaguely similar: Kratylos, Nirukta, Pseudo-Voltaire revived... just to get his Pan-Indian "Prakrt" of 3000 BCE). Perhaps, you could tell them that an Indian horse ain't related to an Indian cow - only because both exist in India and graze on the same meadow... The zebu being a local breed, the horse (Equus caballus), NOT (you'll be killed for that example!) And, they do not talk to each other in a proto-Indianese animal language (a Mammal Prakrt) but just roam the same pasture. In ultimate reduction and analysis, these guys just cannot stomach it, --as you compared about la douce France--, that one (accidental/incidental political) entity like present (France or China or the USA or) India might comprise several language families. What is the big loss? What about the Swiss who thrive on it? In short, labour lost... unless you want to preach to the deaf: 1 or 2 may listen... (Ceterum censeo equum sivalensem esse delendum.) And, many thanks for keeping up your list, all of which I have read, especially the VERY interesting and informative discussions about Koguryo, -- but I was too busy to participate this year -- and of course, I am not specialized when it comes to O.Ch./TB consonants/vowels, etc. And I do not want to run off my mouth about such E.A. ling. topics, like the Kalyanaramans, Manansalas and Agarwals (not even to begin with Fraudley et comp.ie) of this world do about India, without providing a shred of hard evidence ... that would stand up to peer review. Enough said / alam araNyarodanena/ Genug des Guten / Cela suffit! Joyeux Fe^tes: Good Holidays & success and all the best for the new millennium, 2001 ! Yrs Michael -------------- NB: see what I sent off months ago, of course, to no avail: ------------- Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:30:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indology INDOLOGY at L... From: Michael Witzel witzel at F... Swaminathan Madhuresan writes: >> At the same time, why is he [Rajaram] denying with authority about the >>Dravidian >> language family altogether? N. S. Rajaram writes, "empirical data >>provides no >> support for the existence of Dravidian languages independent of Sanskrit." >> ...... With this mindset, will he allow for Dravidian to exist in >>the Indus age? ...the linguistic authority of a former engineer and computer specialist... Hindutva proponents generally cannot stomach that a country as large as India (not to speak of the whole subcontinent) should have languages that do not belong to the "Sanskrit group". Instead, (non-linguist) writers from S. Kalyanaraman (web site) to Subhash Kak (in print, at Poona, BORI) speak of an original Prakrit (all the while misusing the technical term, used for certain Middle Indo-Aryan languages, spoken AFTER Vedic Sanskrit); their kind of Pkt. would include pre-Pali, pre-Hindi as well as pre-(ancient)-Tamil... They also misappropriate the studies, made over the past fifty years or so, of a 'lingustic area' such as the Sprachbund of the Balkans, where languages have increasingly influenced each other and have evolved certain common grammatical categories (e.g., the postposited article in Bulgarian and Rumanian). Archaic India would have had such an ancient "sprachbund", speaking various sorts of "Prakrits". (Sometimes, Sanskrit is viewed as having been 'artificially' created, by Panini!] -- Even nowadays, however, Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian, Albanian, (etc.) -- each of them from a different Indo-European sub-family: Greek, Slavic, Romanic, etc. -- *still* differ from each other in basic vocabulary and grammar and are NOT mutually understandable. Just as e.g., Marathi, Tamil, and Santali. To compare the similar situation, in size and antiquity, of Europe: nobody there is bothered that Finnish, Esthonian, Hungarian (etc.) do not belong to the Indo-European but to the Uralic language family. And, that Basque descends from an old European language that is much older than both. And, that we also have Turkish languages (in Turkey, European Russia), and even the (Buddhist) Mongolian Kalmyks (west of the Volga, near former Stalingrad)... (Not to speak of a number of smaller Uralic languages in N. Scandinavia and N. Russia, and all the various Caucasian etc. languages in southernmost Russia, and beyond). Nobody thinks a Basque or Finn to be less "European" than a Portuguese or a Swede. Nor -- obviously-- do the various Balkan peoples think they form an ethnic unit. If linguistic diversity and several language families can be tolerated in a large sub-continent of Asia such as Europe (and in nation states with several official languages such as Finland (2-3), Belgium (3), Switzerland (4) etc.,) why not in India? (The constiutution mandates it anyhow!) The "primordial Prakrit" slogan and the denial of a Dravidian language family (stretching from from Brahui in Baluchistan and Kurukh, Gondi in teh Vindhyas to Tamil) is just another political ruse, intended at "nation building" and promoting "national unity." It has nothing to do with linguistic reality. I suggest to submit Indian language materials to any *disinterested* linguist of *any* national background, such as to specialists of sub-Saharan African, Amerindian, Australian or Papua languages, and see what they come up with: it will be the same language families that all other linguists, Indo-European or Drav., will enumerate to you: We have at least 7 major language families in South Asia: Indo-European, Dravidian, Austro-Asiatic (Munda, Khasi in Meghalaya), Tibeto-Burmese (Himalayan belt, Arunachal, Nagaland, Manipur etc.), Thai-Kadai-etc. (Khamti in Assam = Ahom), Burushaski (in Hunza, etc.), Andamanese (part of Indo-Pacific?), and many small remnant groups, unrelated to any larger families, such as Kusunda (C. Nepal), the substrates of Nahali (on the Tapti-- the "oldest" Indians), Tharu, Vedda, etc. -- plus, the unknown language(s) of the Indus civilization. For details about the ancient period, see: EJVS, Sept. 1999: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ under: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0501/ejvs0501a.txt etc. ---------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Thu Dec 28 00:37:37 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 08:37:37 +0800 Subject: Re. the so-called "double-truth" In-Reply-To: <20001228000955.15022.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227065993.23782.13851973833258472791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> If fundamentally there is no being, then adding things to what and Won't reach What? -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Ven. Tantra Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 8:10 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re. the so-called "double-truth" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesualdo Correia wrote: <<...But for the hand be able to clap alone that of Being is undoubtely the very one which counts. VijqAna and PrajqA. Would that be possible to ontologise these terms in order to adequate things?>> fundamentally there is no being. adding things won't reach it __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 28 16:53:11 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 08:53:11 -0800 Subject: nArANa, the Bengali word for nArAyaNa Message-ID: <161227066032.23782.7945306298365356271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the info that NAraNa is in Bengali. Is NAraNa also attested? In Eastern languages, -r- is invariably interchanged with -l-, isn't it? Is nAlaNa/nAlANa also attested in East India as meaning Narayana? Thanks, SM Dr. Jogesh Panda wrote: <<< nArANa [pronounced naaraana], the Bengali word for nArAyaNa [samsad bAGgAlA abhidhAn = shangshad baangaalaa (sic) abhidhaan] is glossed as the apabhramza form of Skt [and tatsama] word nArAyaNa. But is it possible [ as my high school headmaster Khagendranath Dasgupta thought] to derive nArANa [a veritable proto-Bengali word, attested in place-names etc.] from Santali nAr, "to cheat", "to deceive" [nArAyaNa being the great deceiver, mohinI and all that]. The -ANa ending is attested in words like gAyANa [=gAyen], bAyANa [bAyen] etc. Or [the moral of the story] is it not comparable to inviting Yaska to preside over an etymological debate ? And construe a whole cultural universe based on the perennial Nirukta ? >>> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 28 16:56:46 2000 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 08:56:46 -0800 Subject: Riddles (prahElikaah) in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227066035.23782.6528321357462012437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Dmitri wrote: > Thanks for the reply, SuryaPrakash Sharma -- now I > know better what I am > looking for. > > An example of such riddle is a Sphynx question: > "Who walks in the morning on four legs, in the > afternoon on two and in the > evening on three?" > > What I am looking for is an example of ancient > (about 500 BCE) riddle in > Sanskrit (or any other language of ancient India), > based on words having > several meanings and, if possible, on two ways of > splitting an untterance > into words. > > Is there such riddle, used in works on phylosophy, > grammar, rhetoric? > I would appreciate a complete example. > > Best regards, Dmitri. > . > tri. > dear mr dmitri the riddle asked may be having one folloing meaning:- it actually reveals the humem life,saying that the morning when the mem is child,he walks on four legs ie two each ahnds,and legs.in afternoon when,he is a young men he walks on two legs,in evening when he is old men he walks on three legs that is two legs and one supporting stick. > ------------------------------ --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 28 09:10:50 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 09:10:50 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227066007.23782.10327030278433626203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On Einstein and Newton: >This is no case of double truth; if the theory of relativity is true, then >Newtonian mechanics is not - it is only a good approximation. As the This would be rejected by many philosophers of science, who'd like to distinguish between scientific theories and physical laws. Absolute truth may negate relative truth, but relative truth still remains practical, at least in Advaita Vedanta. Likewise, there is more to Newtonian mechanics than being just a good approximation of relativisitc mechanics. And one can debate what is meant by "good" here. Anyway, Newton's laws of motion are not completely invalidated, and pedagogy demands Newtonian physics to be taught before moving to relativistic physics. In all these things, the structure of science and the transmission of its knowledge are very similar to those of traditions that have the so-called "double-truth" theories. statement >"pi = 3.14" is not true, although it is an often useful approximation. > The nature of this approximation is quite different, pi being an irrational number, which 3.14 is not. Pi and 3.14 belong to entirely different kinds of numbers. Relativistic and classical physics do not constitute different kinds of scientific theories. On the other hand, quantum physics is an entirely different kind of theory as compared to classical physics. Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From f_ruzsa at LUDENS.ELTE.HU Thu Dec 28 08:26:00 2000 From: f_ruzsa at LUDENS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 09:26:00 +0100 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227066002.23782.18310159618878605858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, On pre-buddhist veritas duplex in Greece: Parmenides himself uses some theory of double truth. His terminology (aletheia versus doxa, i.e. [absolute] truth vs. [general] opinion) resembles closely the early buddhist opposition of paramattha - sammuti [paramArtha - sammati, the latter wrongly interpreted as saMvRti]. He lived probably half a century before the Buddha. Of course Parmenides might have got some of his ideas from India; in fact in my M.A. thesis I tried to prove his indebtedness to the sadvidyA (chAndogya upaniSad VI). There the relevant opposition is satya - nAmadheya. On the independent origin of theories of double truth: In the exegesis of conflicting religious texts usually there are, I think, other possibilities: different peoples, classes, areas or ages might be meant by the different texts. On the other hand, as soon as we start talking about philosophy the contrast of appearance - deeper reality seems difficult to avoid. What is not necessary, however, is to call this a theory of double *truth*, a rather shocking way of putting it. On Einstein and Newton: This is no case of double truth; if the theory of relativity is true, then Newtonian mechanics is not - it is only a good approximation. As the statement "pi = 3.14" is not true, although it is an often useful approximation. Yours, Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa, PhD associate professor of philosophy E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at ludens.elte.hu From ghezziem at TIN.IT Thu Dec 28 10:08:17 2000 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 10:08:17 +0000 Subject: Finding books Message-ID: <161227066010.23782.5874762272342959851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dearest Colleagues, I am eagerly looking for a lot of Sanskrit texts (with or without a translation in a Western language) and, as usual, I have sent my order to a number of Indian bookshops. On 13th December "Motilal Banarsidass" and "Books & Periodical Agency" have written to me "ok", but, afterwards, unfortunately, I don't have received no more any news. The "Indian Books Centre" has not these texts; and "Biblia Impex" did not answer a word. So, can someone give to me an advice? Many thanks in advance and sorry for this annoyance. Yours, Daniela Rossella ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 28 15:18:14 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 10:18:14 -0500 Subject: Double truth etc Message-ID: <161227066020.23782.4773999632287284333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Dmitri >Thus, "western" phylosophy is the art of designing questions that >might >move the subject of phylosophical inquiry into the area of >science. As a >result of this, phylosophy remains forever concerned >with uncertainties >while the body of scientific knowledge constantly >increases. > >It is interesting to know if such dichotomy "phylosophy-sciences" >existed >in Indian intellectual tradition. This dichotomy appear to >exists >de-facto already in ancient Greece. I only hope all western scholars accept your definition. If not they may please raise other opinions. The indian or other Indic traditions have a "similar" convention (not exactly same), but makes sense to us). The messy problem is camoflaged in the garb of symbolism and many historical factors, further confused by scholars themselves who did not understand the terminology beyond their narrow field such as purANAs, advaita, dvaita, classical/modern Hinduism, gIta etc. Many modern scholars like Aurobindo and dayAnand had introduced their own terminology. First of all it is undisputed that "science" is "zAstra", whether it is science of medicine, archery or whatever. zAstrA is verifiable in terms of materialism. In addition to this there is "veda", that which can be known. But then what is the definition of "knowing"? To answer this question one has to go into depths of the science of perception itself. So veda invented symbolism such as indra, viSHNu etc. veda may also contain some zAstra but it is rare (ex. "salt is nutriment".. somewhere in A.B.). The "symbolism" of veda is misunderstood as "history" by some people (ayodhya issue), and as "religion" by some others (ritualists), or "mythology" by others (purANAs). In my opinion, all these are wrong. indra, viSNu etc are merely symbols of the subject of "knowing". The fact that the codification was lost does not give the right to any one to monopolyze a subject one way or other. In the absence of a final proven opinion, all possible opinions must be explored until one of them is proven. As for the "uncertainty" aspect it is already included as part of the symbolism. The unknown, uncertain, or the word "who" (ka) is prajApati in veda. Wherever prajApati is mentioned it must be taken as the unknown. veda brings the "unknown" into the equation and builds active relations with the other "known" objects and mapps them on to mental faculties or other phenomena found in the nature. Best Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 28 18:38:23 2000 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 10:38:23 -0800 Subject: sa.mkiir.naa -- any examples? Message-ID: <161227066042.23782.15672951234615156944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SuryaPrakash Sharma wrote: .dear indologist, ot seems you have more interst to ancient literature,i can suggest you a few riddles in all most versions of the yajurveda samhita.it is:- ko ekaakii charati,k'swid jayate punah.ko himasya bheshajam,kaschit aasiit pillippilla,THAT IS"WHO MOVES ALONE,WHO BORNS AGAIN AND AGAIN,WHICH IS THE MEDICINE FOR COLD AND WHICH IS THE LOOSENED ONE.","THE NEXE MANTRA ANSWERS SAYING"SURYA EKAAKII CHARATI,CHANDRAMA JAYATE PUNAH,AGNIRHIMASYA BHESHAJAM,PRTHVIAASEET PILLIPILLA.",THAT IS "THE SUN MOVES ALNE,THE MOON BORNS AGAIN AND AGAIN,FIRE IS THE MEDICINE FOR COLD AND EARTH IS LOOSENED ONE. it is available the the aswamedha chapter of yajurveda, As i am here at new jersey with my kids having all documents left in india,I CANNOT GINE YOU THE FULL REFERENCE OF ABOVE RIDDLES BUT YOU CAN REFER THE INDEX OF ANY COPY OF YAJURVEDA SAMHITA. spsharma, ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 28 15:55:47 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 10:55:47 -0500 Subject: Double truth etc Message-ID: <161227066024.23782.10592106907269960024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Bhadraiah Mallampalli >further confused by scholars themselves who did not understand the > >terminology beyond their narrow field such as purANAs, advaita, >dvaita, >classical/modern Hinduism, gIta etc. Many modern scholars >like Aurobindo >and dayAnand had introduced their own terminology. I am sorry no offence is meant. We just had a heartful discussion of "several" branches of buddhism compared with "several" versions of advaita by "many" authors who lived at "different times" as reported by some modern authors and as posted by Satya. We may not afford some more discussion of the intermediate interpreters. My preference is to go back to original texts of veda or what Buddha originally said (silence?). >(ayodhya issue) I have questions on historicity of vizvAmitrA who was deconstructed in Ai.A. Regards Bahdraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Thu Dec 28 11:10:53 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 12:10:53 +0100 Subject: Finding books Message-ID: <161227066017.23782.9059625223826629964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Maybe I can be of help, if you let me know what you are looking for. Part of our team is in India, so we might be able to source the books for you. We have also started publishing digital facsimile editions of Indian manuscripts, as well as paper-printed versions of them. Yours, Gunthard Mueller gm at e-ternals.com Daniela Rossella wrote: > Dearest Colleagues, I am eagerly looking for a lot of Sanskrit texts (with > or without a translation in a Western language) and, as usual, I have sent > my order to a number of Indian bookshops. On 13th December "Motilal > Banarsidass" and "Books & Periodical Agency" have written to me "ok", but, > afterwards, unfortunately, I don't have received no more any news. The > "Indian Books Centre" has not these texts; and "Biblia Impex" did not answer > a word. So, can someone give to me an advice? > Many thanks in advance and sorry for this annoyance. > Yours, > Daniela Rossella > > ***************************************************** > Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella > Piazza Buzzati, 5 > 43100 PARMA (Italy) > tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 > cell. +39.0338 3198904 > ghezziem at tin.it > ***************************************************** From dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET Thu Dec 28 18:02:21 2000 From: dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET (Rosati) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 13:02:21 -0500 Subject: Integrity of academia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066039.23782.17402308872207774017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ECITkalichildframeset.htm "Later in the book (see note #144) the author inexplicably translates "Shiva-linga" as "Shiva's penis." Perhaps this is because Kripal views Shiva as one who is "known for his erotic exploits." All I can say on this point is that this is not the kind of image a practicing Hindu carries in his or her heart. I have worshipped Shiva my entire life and not once when I gazed upon the Shiva linga did "Shiva's penis" enter my mind. I can assure you that this is the same for millions of other practicing Hindus." Is the author of this statement in deep denial, or am I misinformed? I always thought a Shiva-linga >was< a phallic symbol, probably the most famous phallic symbol in existence? Dante From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Thu Dec 28 16:21:25 2000 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 16:21:25 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227066026.23782.2594887292454406806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>On Einstein and Newton: >>This is no case of double truth; if the theory of relativity is true, then >>Newtonian mechanics is not - it is only a good approximation. But Einstein's theory of relativity is not true, but only an approximation, because it is a classical ( i.e., not a quantum-mechanical theory). Relativistic quantum mechanics leads inexorably into quantum field theory, which is recognized to be an approximation, in part because no one has figured out how to include gravity. The best we can (practically) do is quantum field theory on classical gravity backgrounds, (what Stephen Hawking is famous for). Then we have the theology of M/brane/superstring-theory which seems to tie all the essential physical ideas together, but which offers no experimental prediction which can be used to rule out the theory. The quantum field theory, the Standard Model, which ties together all experimentally known facts extremely well, is recognized to be an approximation, simply because it shows near-regularities is like that of Mendeleyev's Periodic Table, but offers no clue as to the underlying reason for the regularity. So, modern physics is either a case of no truth at all, or of multiple truths. -Arun Gupta From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Thu Dec 28 16:30:16 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 16:30:16 +0000 Subject: PASUPATHI SEAL IN MOHENJODARO In-Reply-To: <20001228102520.6199.qmail@web4307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227066030.23782.16821835042383700619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Girish Bhaskaruni writes > "Is he really Proto Siva??". Surely pas'u always refers to domesticated animals (particularly cattle), not the wild ones shown on the seal? Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 28 16:39:12 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 16:39:12 +0000 Subject: White crane feathers on Shiva Message-ID: <161227066028.23782.8714804094876059091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While reading TEvAram verses, I came upon an interesting usage of the word, "pIli" which is not common. Generally, 'pIli' means a) peacock feather or b) shoot of an umbrella. But 'pIli' can refer to the feathers of a common crane which in tamil is 'kokku' and in telugu is 'koGga' and this drav. kokku/koGku > Skt. kaGka 'heron'. Shiva wears the crane feathers, milk white in color, just as he likes things that are white: a) bhUti (ash) b) erukku flowers c) pULai flowers d) white bones and kapAlam. Remember white is the color of mourning, and Indian widows wear white as symbol of inauspiciousness. For the rare usage of pIli as feathers of the common crane, 'kokku': akku ulAm araiyin2an2kAN; aTiyArkku en2Rum Ar amutu Ay aNNikkum aiyARRAn2kAN; kokku ulAm pIliyoTu kon2Rai mAlai kuLirmatiyum kUr aravum nIrum cen2n2it tokku ulAm caTaiyin2an2kAN; toNTar cellum tUneRikAN vAn2avarkaL tuti ceytu Ettum tikku elAm niRainta pukazt tiru ArUril tiru mUlaTTAn2attu em celvan2 tAn2E. A closeup view of the kokku feathers on the head of the famous TiruvAlangADu Nataraja (on whom A. Rodin wrote a praise poem when A. K. Coomaraswamy took him to Madras museum) can be seen in the figure of T. Nataraja in H. Zimmer, The king and the corpse : tales of the soul's conquest of evil. Princeton University Press, 1957, 1970 printing. This point is completely missed out by Sanskritist/Arthistorian C. Sivaramamurti in his magnum opus, Nataraja in art, thought and literature. [On this point, some other time]. Regards, N. Ganesan ------------------------- OTL entries: kokku 01 1. common crane, grus cinerea; 2. stork; 3. paddy-bird; 4. the 19th naks2atra pIli 01 1. peacock's feather; 2. peacock; 3. peacock-fan, small circular fan; 4. white umbrella pIli 03 1. the first leaf or shoot of a palmyra; 2. heart of the palmyra root, being the embryo of the future leaf; palmyra sprout; 3. water trough or spout irrigation; 4. dice for casting lots _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Thu Dec 28 08:43:45 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 16:43:45 +0800 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" In-Reply-To: <005a01c070a8$23e1ef80$d554b59d@dial.elte.hu> Message-ID: <161227066005.23782.15671947028006689565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The secret of double-truth lies yes and no, not yes or no, no "versus". Ramanuja's VisishtAdvaita addresses this beautifully. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Ferenc Ruzsa Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 4:26 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Origins of the "double-truth" Friends, On pre-buddhist veritas duplex in Greece: Parmenides himself uses some theory of double truth. His terminology (aletheia versus doxa, i.e. [absolute] truth vs. [general] opinion) resembles closely the early buddhist opposition of paramattha - sammuti [paramArtha - sammati, the latter wrongly interpreted as saMvRti]. He lived probably half a century before the Buddha. Of course Parmenides might have got some of his ideas from India; in fact in my M.A. thesis I tried to prove his indebtedness to the sadvidyA (chAndogya upaniSad VI). There the relevant opposition is satya - nAmadheya. On the independent origin of theories of double truth: In the exegesis of conflicting religious texts usually there are, I think, other possibilities: different peoples, classes, areas or ages might be meant by the different texts. On the other hand, as soon as we start talking about philosophy the contrast of appearance - deeper reality seems difficult to avoid. What is not necessary, however, is to call this a theory of double *truth*, a rather shocking way of putting it. On Einstein and Newton: This is no case of double truth; if the theory of relativity is true, then Newtonian mechanics is not - it is only a good approximation. As the statement "pi = 3.14" is not true, although it is an often useful approximation. Yours, Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa, PhD associate professor of philosophy E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at ludens.elte.hu From tyag at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Dec 28 22:00:23 2000 From: tyag at EARTHLINK.NET (Swami Tyagananda) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 17:00:23 -0500 Subject: SV: Integrity of academia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066056.23782.1671387598144587052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Rosati [SMTP:dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET] skrev 28. desember 2000 19:02: >>>>"Later in the book (see note #144) the author inexplicably translates >>>>"Shiva-linga" as "Shiva's penis." Perhaps this is because Kripal views >>Shiva >>>>as one who is "known for his erotic exploits." All I can say on this >>point >>>>is that this is not the kind of image a practicing Hindu carries in his >>or >>>>her heart. I have worshipped Shiva my entire life and not once when I >>gazed >>>>upon the Shiva linga did "Shiva's penis" enter my mind. I can assure you >>>>that this is the same for millions of other practicing Hindus." >> >>>Is the author of this statement in deep denial, or am I misinformed? I >>>always thought a Shiva-linga >was< a phallic symbol, probably the most >>>famous phallic symbol in existence? >> >>The linga is most certainly a penis *originally*, and has in early art been >>depicted as such. However, it is probably a long time ago that practicing >>Hindus thought of it as a penis. It has long since become a powerful cosmic >>symbol. You therefore have to look at historical periods when you interpret >>the symbol. Kripal's critic may be in good faith, although he may be >>misinformed about the early history of Shaivism. Or he may simply be busy >>doing what is often done in religious circles: projecting modern ideas >>backwards into the past, so that the past does not seem scandalous to >>modern sensibilities. Academics are not supposed to do so, but amateurs and >>theologians often do. >> >>Lars Martin Fosse Listmembers, I am the author of the piece that is being discussed. Thanks for your input. Let me clarify. I am neither misinformed about the early history of Shaivism nor I do have any agenda similar to "what is often done in religious circles." All that I wrote was that practicing Hindus do not have "Shiva's penis" in mind when they worship him. Nor is there any evidence that Hindus of ancient times thought of the penis when they worshipped Shiva. This reality does not conflict with the theory that the Shivalinga was a phallic symbol. It may have been, but that is NOT what a Hindu thinks while worshipping. More importantly, the linga is itself a symbol of Shiva. By no stretch of imagination can it becomes Shiva's linga or "Shiva's penis," which is what Kripal writes in his book. Swami Tyagananda From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Thu Dec 28 17:13:53 2000 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 17:13:53 +0000 Subject: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066037.23782.1665631949958655966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since Jeffrey Kripal (Kali's Child) has been given academic appointment at Harvard; his main work concerns a topic historical and Indian, and because people on this list have expressed extensively their grave concerns at the pseudo- and even fraudulent "scholarship" that is gaining ground in India, I think this topic is important to bring up here. Surely, one's own backyard is more important than far-away India. Especially if one member or another of this list might be on Kripal's tenure committee. Please examine the allegations of mistranslations, faulty scholarship and even direct lies in Kripal's work at http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ECITkalichildframeset.htm -Arun Gupta From ghezziem at TIN.IT Thu Dec 28 19:34:36 2000 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 19:34:36 +0000 Subject: R: Finding books Message-ID: <161227066048.23782.10035555518891835588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dearest Professor, many thanks for Your kind and quick reply. Below, I copy the list of "my" books. With all my love, Daniela Rossella 1) Krsnakarnamrta. English & Sanskrit, text with English translation by K.P.A. Menon, Delhi, Nag Publishers, 1994. OR Krsnakarnamrta. English & Sanskrit, The love of Krishna, edited with an introd. by Frances Wilson, Philadelphia : University of Pennsylvania Press, 1975 2) Love songs of Vidyapati. Translated by Deben Bhattacharya. Edited with an introd., notes and comments by W. G. Archer, 1963, Reprinted 1979 3) Vidyapati, renderings in English verse by D.C. Datta 4) Works. Hindi & Sanskrit, Samskrtagranthavali - Vidyapati, 1981 5) Vidyapati-gita-sangraha. The songs of Vidyapati,Banaras, Motilal Banarasidass (only if this book contains all the songs of Vidyapati in Sanskrit) 6) Mirabai, Chants mystiques de Mirabai, text hindi traduit et comment? par N. Balbir, Paris, Les Belles Lettres, 1979, collection "Le monde indien" OR an other recent book which contains the songs of Mirabai with Hindi text and English or French translation ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** ---------- >Da: Gunthard Mueller >A: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Oggetto: Re: Finding books >Data: Gio, 28 dic 2000 11:10 > > Maybe I can be of help, if you let me know what you are looking for. > Part of our team is in India, so we might be able to source the books for you. > We have also started publishing digital facsimile editions of Indian > manuscripts, as well > as paper-printed versions of them. > Yours, > Gunthard Mueller > > gm at e-ternals.com > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Dec 28 18:40:06 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 19:40:06 +0100 Subject: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066044.23782.13993711803541907781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rosati [SMTP:dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET] skrev 28. desember 2000 19:02: >>"Later in the book (see note #144) the author inexplicably translates >>"Shiva-linga" as "Shiva's penis." Perhaps this is because Kripal views Shiva >>as one who is "known for his erotic exploits." All I can say on this point >>is that this is not the kind of image a practicing Hindu carries in his or >>her heart. I have worshipped Shiva my entire life and not once when I gazed >>upon the Shiva linga did "Shiva's penis" enter my mind. I can assure you >>that this is the same for millions of other practicing Hindus." >Is the author of this statement in deep denial, or am I misinformed? I >always thought a Shiva-linga >was< a phallic symbol, probably the most >famous phallic symbol in existence? The linga is most certainly a penis *originally*, and has in early art been depicted as such. However, it is probably a long time ago that practicing Hindus thought of it as a penis. It has long since become a powerful cosmic symbol. You therefore have to look at historical periods when you interpret the symbol. Kripal's critic may be in good faith, although he may be misinformed about the early history of Shaivism. Or he may simply be busy doing what is often done in religious circles: projecting modern ideas backwards into the past, so that the past does not seem scandalous to modern sensibilities. Academics are not supposed to do so, but amateurs and theologians often do. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Thu Dec 28 18:46:53 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 19:46:53 +0100 Subject: Indo-Aryan words in Hurrian Message-ID: <161227066046.23782.16261919126934904282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, Onofrio Carruba, in his article "Zur Ueberlieferung einiger Namen und Appellativa der Arier von Mittani: 'a Luwian look?'" offers some new insights and repeats some old ineradicable misconceptions. Among the latter is the idea of an Indo-Aryan aristocracy in northern Syria and northern Mesopotamia that occupied "some bigger and smaller states". We know that this aristocracy spoke Hurrian, and that people bearing IA names were not all aristocrats. Carruba claims that there are "fast nur dynastische und fuerstliche (IA) Namen". If this were true, we would have less than twenty such names. Among his new insights is an astounding one: Two Hurrian officers from the sixteenth century, at a time when the Hurrian Empire probably included Cilicia (Kizzuwatna) and western Syria, and Hurrians were feared enemies of the Hittites, bore Luwian names. They were Karawanis and Paraiunas, both names "mit Sicherheit luwisch". I cannot follow Carruba when he claims that the Hurrians invaded Kizzuwatna in the eighteenth century "wohl zunaechst unter arischer Fuehrung". No IA names are attested in the Alalakh texts from the seventeenth century; these names belong to a much later period, mainly the fourteenth century. But he is correct in saying that Kizzuwatna became a bridge over which Mesopotamian culture in Hurrian form reached the Hittites, who were thoroughly Hurrianized. Carruba, and also Starke (as we will see tomorrow), both interpret a$$u$$anni as Luwian, not as IA, but in different ways, as derived from Luwian assu-, "horse". I am not convinced, and prefer to see this word as Hurrian, which is much simpler in any case. The first Kikkuli text is thought to be a copy from the thirteenth century and derives from an original of the fifteenth century, which means, I suppose, that it might have been copied many times. Carruba explains the name Kikkuli as Luwian (!), from an IE *kwekwl(o)-, cp. "cakra", and translates "der des Rades; der Kutscher", ignoring the known names from eastern Mittani in Kikk-, and the Hurrian suffix -(u)li, indicating an occupation, for instance in keb-li, "hunter", and tab-li, "metalworker". Regarding wa$anna$aia, which since E. Forrer has been regarded as a rendering of an IA genitive *vasanasya, Carruba explains it, not very convincingly, as a defectively written Luwian nominative-accusative plural of a genitival adjective in -assaja. He therefore amends nawartanni wa$anna$aia and reads vasannasa-ia. Unexpectedly, Carruba derives Luwian zalla-, "trot", and zalal/zalti-, "Streitwagen/chariot" from IA car-/cal-, referring to panza-, which he obviously thinks was pronounced pantsa-, as in Luwian. He claims that we have here a technical borrowing from IA into Luwian. Next time we will have a look at Frank Starke's "hippologisch orientierte Interpretation des Kikkuli-Textes". Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol Oslo From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Thu Dec 28 19:42:06 2000 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 20:42:06 +0100 Subject: idealism, Yogacara etc. Message-ID: <161227066050.23782.2070448377198909686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I 'm not very impressed by Anackers translations, I would advise Thomas E. Wood: 'Mind Only' - Motilal 1994 / Hawaii U.P. 1991 - ISBN 81-208-1239-X and a happy 2001 erik Lynken Ghose wrote: > Satya Upadhya: > > In regards to the part of your posting which mentioned Yogaacaara as an > "idealistic" school and also S. Hodge's posting, one way of investigating > this point alone (i.e. whether it is truly an idealist school) would > be to > look at Stefan Anacker's "Seven Works of Vasubandhu" and Thomas > Kochumuttom's "A Buddhist Doctrine of Experience". > > Within Anacker's book, you can read through the Madhyaanta-vibhaaga in > both > Sanskrit and/or English and perhaps the Trisvabhaava (3 essence or > natures)-nirdesa. > > Through grappling with the trisvabhaava (3 essences or natures) doctrine, > perhaps you can get some idea of whether or not this school is truly 100% > idealism. My impression is that it is not, but I'm not a specialist in > Yogaacaara. The reason I say that it is probably not is due to the > doctrine > of paratantra svabhaava or dependent nature. It seems that this > svabhaava is > indicating reality as it is, although I could be wrong. > > Another way to investigate the 3 nature/essence theory would be to > look at > Ake Boquist's review of much of the Yogaacaara literature related to this > doctrine. Boquist has published a short book (about 100 pgs. or so) in > which > he translates passages from the Samdhinirmocana, Mahayaanasuutraalamkaara > etc. > > Also, there was a good panel at the AAR this year on Yogaacaara. > > Hope this helps, > > Lynken Ghose > > > PS. I agree with S. Hodge's posting about s'uunyavaada not being > idealistic. > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 28 20:42:07 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 20:42:07 +0000 Subject: thANDA in Bengali Message-ID: <161227066052.23782.1281203580853084817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> thANDA = 'cool' in Bengali. Does this have any relations with the foll.?: tamil taN- = 'cold'; 'taNNIr'= cold water; 'taNNATi'= cooling glasses; Also, taTuman2 (spoken out as 'taDuman')= common cold; taLarvu = weak, growing old, and hence, becoming 'cold'. taL-/taD-/taN- can easily give birth to tANDA. (naL-/naD- 'reed'; pa_lu/paNDu = 'fruit'; ku_li/kuNDu= 'pit' etc.) Or, Bengali thANDA 'cool' is from IA or Persian and, has nothing to do with Dravidian?? Thanks, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 29 03:03:03 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 21:03:03 -0600 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227066073.23782.4922983156825490996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Zydenbos wrote: "We know that the British did some nasty things in South Asia. But let us realise that they also did some beneficial things - including, in some cases, bringing out into the open some data or introducing ideas that helped undo 'identities' that had been constructed for certain Indian people by certain other Indian people, of whom the latter also thought (and still think) that their fellow countrymen are "racially and religiously inferior"... I fear that chauvinistic recriminations against 'padris', the British, etc. contribute little to the advancement of knowledge." --------- As usual this is typical spinning. It was the european colonialists who introduced the concept of race in the first place and then went onto conjure up an Aryan invasion - Now the natives are being accused of having thought their fellow cuntrymen are "racially and religiously inferior" !!! As usual europeanists try to hasten to cover up abuse of India by western colonialist and religious ideologies. For Indians to make an effort to know their own history is to be labelled chauvinistic ! Subrahmanya _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From giravani at JUNO.COM Thu Dec 28 22:02:54 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 22:02:54 +0000 Subject: Language Discussion Message-ID: <161227066054.23782.8213091297739597655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have personally no problem in accepting research of scholars in connection with multiple linguistic families in the sub-continent. As a matter of fact it is rich heritage.However I have two problems.First-how does one decide whether NArANa and NArAya.Na are related or they were born in two unrelated languages?There are internationally known scholars of Sanskrit and Tamil on the Indology list.Could any body kindly recommend me a book that describes the rules of sound changes between Tamil and Sanskrit similar to Grimm's rule, Verner's rule(Lehman-Historical Linguistics).These rules have exceptions but they at least explain few patterns of sound changes within languages.How does one decide whether "Pustakam" is sanskritized form of "pottakam" or it is other way around? Am I wrong in seeing the pattern of systematic sound change from "s" to "t" in the pairs of the words-Pustakam/Pottakam,Shikhin/Tukhin,Shri/Tiru,and Agastya/Agattyar.The second problem is exclusively with Sanskrit.I read the five books-1)B.K.Matilal-The Word and the World,2)The study of dialectics of Sphota by Gaurinath Sastri,3)The Sphotanirnaya of Kaunda Bhatta by S.D.Joshi,4)Linguistic thought in Ancient India-by Pushpendra Kumar,5) Shabda by Tandra Patnaik, and 6)Sonic Theology by Guy Beck.All these books talk about discussions from thousands of years on Sanskrit sentences, Sanskrit Padas, Sanskrit Shabdas, Sanskrit Aksharas and Sanskrit Varnas.Vedics, Buddhists, Jains, Mimansakas, Naiyayikas, Vaishe.sikas and many more schools pitched in discussions going on from at least Panini's time, for the known history of 2400 years. I do not understand the outcome of these discussions except they have to do with Semantics of Sanskrit.What do we gain by proving or disproving "Shabda-prAmAnya"?I am not interested in the proving or disproving the antiquity of one language or the other. Are there similar discussions(Sphota doctrine) in case with Tamil language? If yes, what is the outcome?Relating Tamil word to Sanskrit or vice versa does not add to my knowledge. It is not relevant to the topics discussed in the books listed above. I hope, I made myself a little more clear. Thanks. From rao.3 at OSU.EDU Thu Dec 28 23:07:21 2000 From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 23:07:21 +0000 Subject: Origins of the "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227066058.23782.13982755731973878772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:21:25 +0000, Arun Gupta wrote: >So, modern physics is either a case of no truth at all, or of multiple >truths. Actually, if you buy either Thomas Kuhn's or Karl Popper's philosophy of science, science consists of models that attempt to explain (part of) the perceived phenomeno. So, scientists can't speak of ``Truth''. Platonism seems to be coming back in fashion, but without answering the old objections against it. So whether science is a search for truth or not depends on whom you ask. [But then there may be people, like mathematicians once described as Platonists on weekdays and Formalists on Sundays, who talk as if they are Platonists but disclaim it when asked point blank. In fact, I belong to this group.] From rao.3 at OSU.EDU Fri Dec 29 00:02:45 2000 From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 00:02:45 +0000 Subject: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066060.23782.11530022561551755697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 19:40:06 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: [quotation from a web page] ... All I can say on this point is that this is not the kind of image a practicing Hindu carries in his or her heart. > Kripal's critic may be in good faith, although he may be >misinformed about the early history of Shaivism. Given the use of the present tense ``carries'', I would assume that the said critic is referring to modern-day Hindus. Anyway, what is the context of the statement in Kripal's book? [I don't have it at hand.] Is it about the early period or 19-20c.? --- On a different but related note: Current depiction of the linga has it emerging from something sometimes referred to as yoni. Can anybody tell me how far back this goes? Also, this has been called a depiction of union impled to be sexual. But the linga seems to be going the wrong way for that. This reminds me of attempts to connect linga/cosmic pillar to marriage of heaven and earth [Parpola for example.] Again, the linga is pointing the wrong way [at least for India where earth is female and heaven male.] -- Regards Nath From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Dec 29 00:26:24 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 00:26:24 +0000 Subject: idealism, Yogacara etc. Message-ID: <161227066062.23782.9398687548435962870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Hoogcarspel > I 'm not very impressed by Anackers translations, I would advise Thomas > E. Wood: 'Mind Only' - Motilal 1994 / Hawaii U.P. 1991 - ISBN 81-208-1239-X While not entirely endorsing Anacker's translations, I personally dislike Wood's "idealism" interpretation of Yogaacaara -- he is also what one might call a "hostile witness" and seems be covertly speaking from a Maadhyamika Bhavavivekaesque perspective (at best). He also conflates several different strands of Yogaacaara thought. There are an increasing number of scholars who are re-examining Yogaacaara and have reached similar conclusions to myself that Yogaacaara cannot be classified as idealism in any meaningful sense. Try also Kalupahana's "Principle of Buddhist Psychology" for another perspective. Wayman has also written several useful papers now archived on the internet discussing the problem. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 29 00:44:11 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 00:44:11 +0000 Subject: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066066.23782.14330305105720093023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One of the earliest Lingam representaions with Shiva as Kapardin standing on a dwarf is in GuDimallam. This lingam is a clear representation of the male phallus. But, I agree that in Saiva siddhantam from 5th century no one talks of Shiva as a phallic symbol. In fact, PeriyapuraaNam says Lingam is the aru-uru. Something a symbol in between Form and Formless. Something like neither 1 nor 0 in binary math. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From zydenbos at GMX.LI Thu Dec 28 23:45:57 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 00:45:57 +0100 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227066071.23782.9474400821351196936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan schrieb am Wed, 27 Dec 2000: > The point to note is that it was > a healthy reaction on the part of ordinary Indians to object to those who > came to rule the country with the aim of plundering it (and within whose > ruling classes Rev.Caldwell firmly belonged) and who thought that > racially, religiously and politically Indians were inferior , and as an > ultimate insult start to define, who the Indians are and what their > identitiies should be. Interesting remarks. If what Caldwell (whose importance for Indian linguistics is beyond debate) wrote really was so offensive, why did it take _twenty years_ after its publication for an 'agitation' to be started against it? Is this an early example of a non-issue that was picked up by certain political forces and turned into an issue, like the Babri Masjid, or the sudden increase in militant interest in recent years in Christians? Ganesan's remark about joining "the Aryan country club" looks like a good starting point for explaining the time gap and the social dynamics (but this topic may be of little interest to the majority of list members). The British evilly destroy identities? When I met Dr. H.C. Bhayani (one of India's most important linguists of the past century, whose sad demise was mentioned on this list recently) over tea in Bangalore in 1990, he told me that he was happy that the British had ruled. "Before they established their rule, there was a different order, and in that order I never would have become a scholar, because I was just a rotten Baniya and it was said that it was my holy duty to sit in a shop and sell things. Thanks to the British, I could study." We know that the British did some nasty things in South Asia. But let us realise that they also did some beneficial things - including, in some cases, bringing out into the open some data or introducing ideas that helped undo 'identities' that had been constructed for certain Indian people by certain other Indian people, of whom the latter also thought (and still think) that their fellow countrymen are "racially and religiously inferior"... I fear that chauvinistic recriminations against 'padris', the British, etc. contribute little to the advancement of knowledge. RZ, M?nchen (who is neither British, nor Christian, nor a relative of Caldwell, nor involved in neo-colonialist conspiracies, and who wishes all the list members a happy 2001) From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 29 00:48:33 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 00:48:33 +0000 Subject: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066067.23782.17213498069015767291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is the author of this statement in deep denial, or am I misinformed? I >always thought a Shiva-linga >was< a phallic symbol, probably the most >famous phallic symbol in existence? > Whether or not Hindus worship Sivalinga as a phallic symbol, there is a very important methodological question involved. Does the specific reference in the Bengali source necessitate the translation as Siva's penis? Can Jeffrey Kripal prove that whenever Ramakrishna Paramahamsa performed pUjA, his thoughts were filled with troublesome vaginas and penises in intercourse? Kripal's own thesis is that Ramakrishna was a "failed Tantric", whatever that means. In any case, if so, Kripal should hold that for Ramakrishna, the Sivalinga had another meaning beyond that of sexual intercourse. This is a serious internal contradiction in Kripal. Doesn't it then follow that Ramakrishna's own usage of the word Sivalinga, as recorded by his disciple, has to be understood differently? A cultural anthropologist once wrote to me in private that in his field studies he is more interested in what respondents think and say, rather than what may be the actual historical facts. What a priest in a temple thinks and says about the Sivalinga may be different from and more important (to the priest and to those who study him) than the historical origin of the Sivalinga as a phallus. Given Kripal's psychological analysis, shouldn't concern himself with what *Ramakrishna* thought and said, rather than with the history behind every word he used? But then, Kripal sees sex in every incident in Ramakrishna's life. It seems to me that the only one really bothered by visions of vaginas and penises in l'affaire de Kali's Child is Jeffrey Kripal. Ramakrishna's own religious vision doesn't seem to have either celebrated lewd sexuality a la Tantrics, or despised the sexual dimension of human life a la some extreme ascetic groups. By and large, when Indians see a Digambar Jain monk or a Naga monk or a naked child, our attention is not focused on their penises. I have no doubt where Jeffrey Kripal's attention would focus. Swami Tyagananda's objection stands firm (yeah, one could read sexual meaning into my use of "stand" and "firm" also). There are serious and repeated problems in Kripal's methodology that he has pointed out. To pick this one instance of the Sivalinga and to say that he is in denial is classic hit-and-run tactics. The only people in denial are those who refuse to investigate the real issues involved. Sorry to sound so vicious, but when shoddy yellow journalism pretends to scholarship, and obtains rewards in the process, it is clearly not necessary for every Western academic to run to Kripal's defence. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Fri Dec 29 00:27:29 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 08:27:29 +0800 Subject: Integrity of academia In-Reply-To: <4.1.20001228164509.00957c40@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227066064.23782.6571790512875433689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The term Linga means, among other things, a symbol, a mark, a mount, a causal body. Now, the origins of teh abstract aniconic stone symbol of Siva may have had origins in the primitive fertlity practices of the Prevedic past, but Vedic seers have had the brilliant technique of amalgamating primitive concepts with refined mental projections to lend Linga the meaning of the suprreme mark of cosmic creation. Etymologically, it can also be seen as merging of two terms, "Liyate",That in which all names and forms merge, and Gamyate- That towards which all names and forms proceed. Just as we have a gross form which the eyes and the senses can see, a subtle body that is in the vaporized state and a causal body that which is the seed source of subtle and gross, Lingas have a Sthoola, Sookshma and Kaarana sarira. That which looks like the phallic symbol, clearly marked with the membrane may indicate its erotic connection, often visualised by the Vamamarga Tantrika. (Lefthanded Tantriks). But, all the rest are in fact Swayambhulinga (self-created anicone), Banalinga (arrow born) and Kshanika linga, temporary installations for specific occasions. They are far removed from their phallic connections, being octagonal prism, (Chanda), sixteen-sided (Vikalpa) or cylindrical (Abhasa). The shape at the top may have any of the 5 profiles: parasol, cucumber, egg-shaped, bubble-shaped, quite like the Buddhist Stupa.(all of them indicate impermanence or a natural process of detachment). The pedestal, Yoni, means receptacle and not just a woman's organ of procreation. The fact that huge mountains all across Cambodia and Thailand, apart from India, have been thought of as Lingas, elements have been identified as Lingas(Jyothirlinga, Appulinga, Vayulinga, etc) and man himself is considered a symbol of that Supreme as Atmalinga, must set serious students of religion, philosophy and Indology reflect on the emphasis one wishes to put on Linga and interpret or misinterpret it as it befits the personality and level of ingorance/knowledge. Infact, every idea and the cause of that idea is alsocalled Linga. How far removed this is from the penis interpretation! But, perhaps one whose head (thought) is right there cannot conceive of it as any other symbol! So be it...That too is the cause of procreation! Once can't beat the Seers! -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Swami Tyagananda Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 6:00 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: SV: Integrity of academia >>Rosati [SMTP:dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET] skrev 28. desember 2000 19:02: >>>>"Later in the book (see note #144) the author inexplicably translates >>>>"Shiva-linga" as "Shiva's penis." Perhaps this is because Kripal views >>Shiva >>>>as one who is "known for his erotic exploits." All I can say on this >>point >>>>is that this is not the kind of image a practicing Hindu carries in his >>or >>>>her heart. I have worshipped Shiva my entire life and not once when I >>gazed >>>>upon the Shiva linga did "Shiva's penis" enter my mind. I can assure you >>>>that this is the same for millions of other practicing Hindus." >> >>>Is the author of this statement in deep denial, or am I misinformed? I >>>always thought a Shiva-linga >was< a phallic symbol, probably the most >>>famous phallic symbol in existence? >> >>The linga is most certainly a penis *originally*, and has in early art been >>depicted as such. However, it is probably a long time ago that practicing >>Hindus thought of it as a penis. It has long since become a powerful cosmic >>symbol. You therefore have to look at historical periods when you interpret >>the symbol. Kripal's critic may be in good faith, although he may be >>misinformed about the early history of Shaivism. Or he may simply be busy >>doing what is often done in religious circles: projecting modern ideas >>backwards into the past, so that the past does not seem scandalous to >>modern sensibilities. Academics are not supposed to do so, but amateurs and >>theologians often do. >> >>Lars Martin Fosse Listmembers, I am the author of the piece that is being discussed. Thanks for your input. Let me clarify. I am neither misinformed about the early history of Shaivism nor I do have any agenda similar to "what is often done in religious circles." All that I wrote was that practicing Hindus do not have "Shiva's penis" in mind when they worship him. Nor is there any evidence that Hindus of ancient times thought of the penis when they worshipped Shiva. This reality does not conflict with the theory that the Shivalinga was a phallic symbol. It may have been, but that is NOT what a Hindu thinks while worshipping. More importantly, the linga is itself a symbol of Shiva. By no stretch of imagination can it becomes Shiva's linga or "Shiva's penis," which is what Kripal writes in his book. Swami Tyagananda From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 29 17:12:41 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 09:12:41 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066090.23782.5641690452563490056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Like you, I haven't read prof. Kripal or the respected Swami. R. Srinivasan's words <> In Bengal and East India, Tantra is a way of life for centuries, and western books on Tantra usually have pictures from 19th cent. Bengal art depicting linga as the male member. Best wishes, SM --- Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Arun Gupta [SMTP:suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET] skrev 29. desember 2000 16:21: > > In reply to Lars Martin Fosse and Dante Rosati, the subject of Kali's Child > > is Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, whose earthly span was 1836-1886. Therefore, > > the Hindu beliefs of that period are what are appropriate in interpreting > > Shiva-Linga. > > I have not read Kripal's work, but judging by the mails of Vidyasankar > Sundaresan, Swami Tyagananda, as well as your own, the criticism seems at > least partly justified. Apparently, Kripal has read too much Freud and too > little Indology. It would have been interesting to hear his defense. I > would of course concur with Swami Tyagananda that a moder Hindu - and a > 19th century Hindu as well - would not see the linga as a penis. Symbols > have a history, and as all bearers of meaning they can change their > semantics with time. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From rpeck at NECA.COM Fri Dec 29 14:33:51 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 09:33:51 -0500 Subject: Shiva linga Message-ID: <161227066081.23782.16613594450635475129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> .>Whether or not Hindus worship Sivalinga as a phallic symbol, >there is a very important methodological question involved. I propose that the shiva linga is as physically depicted in the religious icon. The shiva linga is a protrusion coming .OUT of the ?yoni?. This protrusion is related to the ?kanda? (sometimes translated as prolapsed uterus). This protrusion is quite noticeable following certain yoga exercises. This protrusion can .ALSO be obtained by men from within the swelling of the perineum (kanda) (and yoni). The perineum is first softened with exercises (one being sitting cross legged) and then the inner muscles are developed. With the protrusion, is the experiencing of an upward flow (similar to a drug rush) that can be attributed to the start of the development of siddhis. The support for the above statements relies upon a literal translation of some popular yoga documents as well as actual physical results reported by students. regards Bob Peck From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 29 18:05:09 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 10:05:09 -0800 Subject: white as unblemish Message-ID: <161227066092.23782.13485438961318275853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V.V. Raman wrote: > This is a perfectly valid question: > Translation: Why didn't I keep my promise to shut up? > Answer: A number of bona fide members of the group asked me publicly and > privately not to get out abruptly, but stay on and give my two cents worth now > and again, even if some people object. > But don't worry. I won't be here for long. >Best regards, >VVRaman Respected Sir, Please do not misunderstand me as I will be the last person wanting you not to write. Your flowery prose always is interesting, your knowledge is valuable, and I have seen your books from BVB. Please do write. Happy new 2001, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Fri Dec 29 10:19:21 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 10:19:21 +0000 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227066079.23782.13552458187588550006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 29 Dec 2000 00:45:57 +0100, Robert Zydenbos wrote: >Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan schrieb am Wed, 27 Dec 2000: > >> The point to note is that it was >> a healthy reaction on the part of ordinary Indians to object to those who >> came to rule the country with the aim of plundering it (and within whose >> ruling classes Rev.Caldwell firmly belonged) and who thought that >> racially, religiously and politically Indians were inferior , and as an >> ultimate insult start to define, who the Indians are and what their >> identitiies should be. > >Interesting remarks. If what Caldwell (whose importance for Indian >linguistics is beyond debate) But he went beyond linguistics. wrote really was so offensive, why did it >take _twenty years_ after its publication for an 'agitation' to be >started against it? They were not days of internet, CNN or instant communication. The book was written in English and just a handful of english educated shanars would be around who normally would not have taken much interest in such matters and would have least expected remarks from such a quarter. It would have taken sometime to digest what Bishop Caldwell wrote, and sometime to explain to other people and organize things. Is this an early example of a non-issue that was >picked up by certain political forces and turned into an issue, like >the Babri Masjid, or the sudden increase in militant interest in recent >years in Christians? What is a issue or a non-issue depends on the subject and not a third party. Ganesan's remark about joining "the Aryan country >club" looks like a good starting point for explaining the time gap and >the social True, Ganesan's remark carries more weight than he realises. When the colonial masters themselves began to be interested in Aryan country club, naturally the colonised have to be edged out of it slowly just as the entry into real British clubs were verboten for Indians well till recently. > >The British evilly destroy identities? When I met Dr. H.C. Bhayani (one >of India's most important linguists of the past century, whose sad >demise was mentioned on this list recently) over tea in Bangalore in >1990, he told me that he was happy that the British had ruled. One can rationalise individual success and failure in a quixotic way, but that does not change the the British Indian empire as a loot-raj. The same would be reaction so many zamindars the colonial rule created to make efficient tax collection "Before >they established their rule, there was a different order, and in that >order I never would have become a scholar, because I was just a rotten >Baniya and it was said that it was my holy duty to sit in a shop and >sell things. Thanks to the British, I could study." The coveted education and jobs in India now are to become "rotten baniya to sit in a shop and sell things" to which those who aspire are mostly non- baniyas. We know that the >British did some nasty things in South Asia. But let us realise that >they also did some beneficial things - including, in some cases, >bringing out into the open some data or introducing ideas that helped >undo 'identities' that had been constructed for certain Indian people >by certain other Indian people, of whom the latter also thought (and >still think) that their fellow countrymen are "racially and religiously >inferior"... Romanticizing colonialism does not help. The last remark does not carry much weight. Race was an unknown concept in India. As far as religion is concerned there was no idea of One True Male God and all religious paths were considered by and large valid > >I fear that chauvinistic recriminations against 'padris', the >British, etc. contribute little to the advancement of knowledge. BTW, there is nothing chauvinistic about 'padiri' which is a Tamil corruption of Padre. I was not singling out padiris but the whole gestalt of colonialism of which Bishop Caldwell was a cog in a wheel > >RZ, M?nchen >(who is neither British, nor Christian, nor a relative of Caldwell, >nor involved in neo-colonialist conspiracies, and who wishes all the >list members a happy 2001) Happy 2001 From ghezziem at TIN.IT Fri Dec 29 10:56:46 2000 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 10:56:46 +0000 Subject: I: Sorry! Message-ID: <161227066077.23782.11766686015712185087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- >Da: "Daniela Rossella" >A: address list Indology >Oggetto: Sorry! >Data: Gio, 28 dic 2000 21:33 > > Sorry, dearest members list! By mistake, I have sent to all a message for > professor Mueller. > Daniela Rossella From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 29 16:58:34 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 11:58:34 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066088.23782.6216310841179429256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Lars Martin Fosse >Apparently, Kripal has read too much Freud and too little Indology. >It >would have been interesting to hear his defense. I would of course >concur >with Swami Tyagananda that a moder Hindu - and a 19th century >Hindu as >well - would not see the linga as a penis. Symbols have a >history, and as >all bearers of meaning they can change their >semantics with time. Well said. But I still believe that the other context of tantrA/Bob Peck's experiments may equally be valid in a different context with no value judgements attached to that approach. What if Bob comes up with a great discovery and patents it? (All the best Bob!) Isn't it a fact that a good percentage of any country's population needs Viagra(TM)? Why not make use of a natural alternative with no side effects other than liberation/emancipation? It is the mix up of contexts by Prof Kripal that bothers me. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 29 19:10:04 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 14:10:04 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066096.23782.7025498367945960549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Lars Martin Fosse >In other words, in Bengal the linga is the male member. The >interesting >question, of course, is if this interpretation is >continuous in Bengali >version(s) of Hinduism, or if we are dealing >with a modern >reinterpretation of the old cosmic symbol which >overlaps with its original >meaning. I would also like to know if this >interpretation is universal in >Bengal, or if it is confined to >Tantric circles. Possibly, Kripal is not >so Freudian as I thought. >More info out there? I remember many regular Hindu pUjAs, in which many aSTakams and strotrams are chanted where every part of a deity's body is praised including eyes, nose, chest, knees, elbows, arms, armpits, toes and so on. Hindus are used to this drill for time unknown. So even an implication of phallus is regular devotion, nothing sexual but regular divine, no more than the sexy sculptures on temple walls. taittirIya saGhita explains the method of laying bricks and its relation to waiste, thighs, legs of the cosmic person. Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Fri Dec 29 15:21:28 2000 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 15:21:28 +0000 Subject: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066083.23782.236778266321879545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reply to Lars Martin Fosse and Dante Rosati, the subject of Kali's Child is Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, whose earthly span was 1836-1886. Therefore, the Hindu beliefs of that period are what are appropriate in interpreting Shiva-Linga. The nineteenth century is not a remote time period. Plenty of contemporary literature , as well as the originals that Kripal used should be available. Bengali is a living language spoken by of the order of two hundred million people, and I would expect any campus to have at least a few Bengali students who can help. It should be relatively easy for anyone who is interested to verify for themselves that Swami Tyaganandaji has a valid complaint. Remember that this is not the misinterpretation of one sentence from a cryptic ancient text written in a dead language that was not easy even when it was a living language. What the Swamiji has demonstrated is a consistent pattern of mistranslation and misinterpretation. Please address this issue rather than minor nitpicks. The nineteenth century is recent and I know that for most of you, your major interest lies in time periods at least a millenium older. Nevertheless I believe the issues here are important as they bear directly on the standards expected of an institution like Harvard. -Arun Gupta From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 29 15:56:36 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 15:56:36 +0000 Subject: Skt. examples formed by loss of Pkt. or other i-/e- Message-ID: <161227066084.23782.13075479291075569059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sanskritists,Linguists, and the List, Are there any examples of Sanskrit words formed from Prakrit or from other languages, where word-initial i- or e- in the supposed root word goes to zero? For example, yakkha/yakSa and tamil iyakkan/esakkan. The medieval commentary of Nammalvar's TiruvAymozi ITu among others uses "ecaGkumpaTi" here "iyaGkutal"/"esaGku-tal" = 'to move'. Incidentally, Sri Krishna is "moving" to Brindavan in that verse of Nammalvar. Also, RV 'iisa/isa' means 'to move'. issara/ii'svara and yakSa look related. Also, liGgam seem to be related with tamil "e_lu-tal" = 'to stand firm'. Any known examples where word-initial e-/i- is lost while forming Sanskrit words? Either on-list or in a private mail to this address, I solicit your examples. Thanks for help. Happy New Millennium to all at INDOLOGY, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Fri Dec 29 09:01:12 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 17:01:12 +0800 Subject: Dravidian origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066075.23782.7206302041029626322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Isn't it beautiful that we see double-truth at work even on a subject such as Dravidian origins? Indians may see inside out, Weterners outside in; both are interpretations, at best a speculation, at worst, spinning! Happy New Year! -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Subrahmanya S. Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 11:03 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Dravidian origins Zydenbos wrote: "We know that the British did some nasty things in South Asia. But let us realise that they also did some beneficial things - including, in some cases, bringing out into the open some data or introducing ideas that helped undo 'identities' that had been constructed for certain Indian people by certain other Indian people, of whom the latter also thought (and still think) that their fellow countrymen are "racially and religiously inferior"... I fear that chauvinistic recriminations against 'padris', the British, etc. contribute little to the advancement of knowledge." --------- As usual this is typical spinning. It was the european colonialists who introduced the concept of race in the first place and then went onto conjure up an Aryan invasion - Now the natives are being accused of having thought their fellow cuntrymen are "racially and religiously inferior" !!! As usual europeanists try to hasten to cover up abuse of India by western colonialist and religious ideologies. For Indians to make an effort to know their own history is to be labelled chauvinistic ! Subrahmanya _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Dec 29 22:13:34 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 17:13:34 -0500 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227066103.23782.10133708294449703123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/29/2000 4:19:31 AM Central Standard Time, vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK writes: > True, Ganesan's remark carries more weight than he realises. When the > colonial masters themselves began to be interested in Aryan country club, > naturally the colonised have to be edged out of it slowly just as the entry > into real British clubs were verboten for Indians well till recently. > The club analogy is interesting. In "What Congress and Gandhi Have Done to the Untouchables," Dr. Ambedkar cites his 14th February 1933 Statement on Temple Entry Bill: "Not very long ago there used to be boards on club doors and other social resorts maintained by Europeans in India, which said "Dogs and Indians" not allowed. The temples of Hindus carry similar boards to-day, the only difference is that the boards on the Hindu temples practically say: "All Hindus and all animals including dogs are admitted, only Untouchables not admitted." The situation in both cases is on a parity. But Hindus never begged to for admission in those places from which the Europeans in their arrogance had excluded them. Why should an Untouchable beg for admission in a place from which he has been excluded by the arrogance of the Hindus? This is the reason of the Depressed Class man who is interested in his material welfare. He is prepared to say to the Hindus, "to open or not to open your temples is a question for you to consider and not for me to agitate. If you think, it is bad manners not to respect the sacredness of human personality, open your temples and be a gentleman. If you rather be a Hindu than be gentleman, then shut the doors and damn yourself for I don't care to come." Clearly, the effect of Indian "clubs" can be seen in the articles below. http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/1999ft/01/31/stories/13310611.htm http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/1999ft/02/07/stories/13070612.htm But, the Shanar movement for social/economic advancement followed a different path. An important factor in the advancement of this community was the Christian missionary activity. In 1858, the demand for Shanan women to wear a cloth covering their breasts led to riots. But for the missionary help, the Shanan women would not have been allowed to wear a cloth covering their breasts in Southern Travancore which was given by Sir Charles Trevelyen, the governor of Madras in 1859. (continued) From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Dec 29 22:15:31 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 17:15:31 -0500 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227066106.23782.10123986581625018564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Soon after 1859, Shanans began to claim Kshatriya status and the right to wear the sacred thread. ( I do not have Robert Hardgrave's book with me. I do not know if this kind of "membership seeking" had anything to do with Nadar's opposition to Caldwell's book which had been published in 1849.) In the late 1800s, when the Shanans agitated for entry into a temple in Sivakasi, the manager first closed the temple. That was considered a partial victory by Shanans and their opponents. Most opposed to Shanan mobility were the Maravans, their near neighbors in space and status. A "clean" caste, the Maravans could enter the temple at Sivakasi. To share it with the Shanans, a polluting caste according to the ritual definitions of traditional society, seemed intolerable. More generally, Maravans, with the sympathetic support of other higher castes in the area, wanted retribution for the wrongs they had suffered at Shanan hands. Through the use of force and violence, the Maravans hoped to so punish and intimidate the Shanans as to pre-empt further Shanan efforts to rise. The Maravans launched attacks on Shanan villages and sections, burning, looting, and sometimes killing. On June 6, 1899, Maravans marched on Sivakasi where Shanans, who had been expecting the attack, succeeded at the cost of sixteen lives in driving them away from the town. The final police statistics showed 23 murders, 102 robberies, many cases of arson, 1958 arrests, and 552 convictions including 7 death sentences. (Source: The Modernity of Tradition by L. I. Rudolph and S. H. Rudolph) But this type of "club" formation and "admission-seeking" was not a European imposition on India. More than 1000 years before M. N. Srinivas discussed Sanskritization, tirumUlar has noted the phenomenon. izikulattOr vETam pUNpar mEl eyta vazi kulattOr vETam pUNpartE Akap pazikulattu Akiya pAz caNTAr An2Ar kazi kulattOrkaL kaLaiya paTTOrE (tirumantiram 1658) It looks like a lot of people have taken to heart Subrahmanya Bharathi's lines: "Ayiram uNtu iGku cAti en2il an2n2iyar vantu pukal en2n2a nIti". They seem to have forgotten tiruvaLLuvar's lines: "epporuL yArYarvAyk kETpin2um apporuL meypporuL kANpatu aRivu" Regards S. Palaniappan From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Dec 29 16:27:12 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 17:27:12 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066087.23782.12774208581306567450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta [SMTP:suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET] skrev 29. desember 2000 16:21: > In reply to Lars Martin Fosse and Dante Rosati, the subject of Kali's Child > is Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, whose earthly span was 1836-1886. Therefore, > the Hindu beliefs of that period are what are appropriate in interpreting > Shiva-Linga. I have not read Kripal's work, but judging by the mails of Vidyasankar Sundaresan, Swami Tyagananda, as well as your own, the criticism seems at least partly justified. Apparently, Kripal has read too much Freud and too little Indology. It would have been interesting to hear his defense. I would of course concur with Swami Tyagananda that a moder Hindu - and a 19th century Hindu as well - would not see the linga as a penis. Symbols have a history, and as all bearers of meaning they can change their semantics with time. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Dec 29 17:41:03 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 18:41:03 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066094.23782.11325611153246153859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan [SMTP:smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM] skrev 29. desember 2000 18:13: > R. Srinivasan's words < context. Linga, according to Saiva siddhanta, means symbol, a mark, a sign, > an emblem. >> > > In Bengal and East India, Tantra is a way of life for centuries, > and western books on Tantra usually have pictures from 19th cent. > Bengal art depicting linga as the male member. In other words, in Bengal the linga is the male member. The interesting question, of course, is if this interpretation is continuous in Bengali version(s) of Hinduism, or if we are dealing with a modern reinterpretation of the old cosmic symbol which overlaps with its original meaning. I would also like to know if this interpretation is universal in Bengal, or if it is confined to Tantric circles. Possibly, Kripal is not so Freudian as I thought. More info out there? Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Dec 29 21:33:48 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 21:33:48 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066098.23782.12765080695375229201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: > Isn't it a fact that a good percentage of any country's population needs Viagra (TM)? Derived, perhaps, from the Skt "vyagra" ? :) Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 29 21:52:26 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 21:52:26 +0000 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227066101.23782.9965322756280342582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is this not a confusing of two different types of "two-truth theories"? >In the case of Newton and Einstein, the later theory includes the >earlier without declaring the earlier theory false. (This is rather I don't mean to say that relativity vs. Newtonian physics corresponds to absolute vs. relative truth in philosophy. I just pointed out that this is *a* kind of two-truth view, in a body of knowledge that developed independently of old schools of philosophy, and that was uninterested in textual exegesis. Still, Newtonian theory would not be considered true when you have a situation where velocity nears that of light. There are different takes on the hierarchy implied in this. As Gupta pointed out, relativity is, in its turn, really an approximation of a higher-level theory. Whether one sees syAdvAda/anekAntavAda or mAyAvAda/advaitavAda in this is a function of one's own original philosophical inclinations. See for example, Nancy Cartwright's "How the Laws of Physics Lie" 1983, NY: OUP. L. Cousins did mention Kundakunda once, but the point that most still seems to miss is that the paramAttha-sammuti distinction in madhyamaka is quite different from the advaita distinction between paramArtha and vyavahAra. It is not clear to me on what basis one can classify "double- truth" theories into types, and say that this type is different from that one. Each such theory presents its own unique features. Best, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From tawady at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 29 23:08:02 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 23:08:02 +0000 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227066108.23782.8251965145113649067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 29 Dec 2000 17:15:31 EST, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > >But this type of "club" formation and "admission-seeking" was not a European >imposition on India. More than 1000 years before M. N. Srinivas discussed >Sanskritization, tirumUlar has noted the phenomenon. In an article titled "The anthropology of Tharus", Gis?le Krauskopff says that "I am of the opinion that the process of 'kshatrisation' attached to this ethnonym could be a relatively recent phenomena, linked to a general tendency of lower groups to raise their status particularly marked in colonial British India." So although this tendency towards Sanskritization, Kshatriyization and Aryanization has been going on for over two millennia it seems that it received a new impetus during the colonial period associated with ?modernization?. Many South Indian derived Sinhalese costal castes in Sri Lanka namely Karave, Durave and Salagama have taken this to the extreme, where as ?lowly? cinnamon peeling Salagama insist that they are Aryan Namboothiris from Kerala and the ?fisher? Karave claim that they are descendants of Kurus of Epic Mahabharat fame, and went to the extend of successfully requesting the recall of a local Dictionary which refused to mix myth with history. Raveen From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Fri Dec 29 23:28:57 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 00:28:57 +0100 Subject: Indo-Aryan words in Hurrian (Starke) Message-ID: <161227066110.23782.1927073633418788958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, When I started reading Frank Starke's Vorwort to his book about the Kikkuli text, AUSBILDUNG UND TRAINING VON STREITWAGENPFERDEN, I was amazed to discover that he uses full stops only very sparingly. You won't believe me, but there were only four full stops on the first page. His chains of thought are extremely long and complicated, and if somebody were to interpret him live, he would have a hard job. In reading this kind of German, one has to find the verb at the end of a paragraph (or on the next page) before an understanding of the whole chain of thought slowly dawns. Starke's interpretation of the Kikkuli text undoubtedly represents a big step forward as measured against Annelies Kammenhuber's, although many of his text emendations appear to be desperate solutions, and his "Luwian bias" might have lead him to ignore or misunderstand Hurrian wordforms. (He does not accept that the author was Hurrian: "Gerade im Hinblick auf den sprachlichen Befund des Kikkuli-Textes kann daher von einer hurr. Verfasserschaft kaum die Rede sein. Die luw. Interferenzen weisen vielmehr darauf hin, dass diese Trainungsanleitung in einer luwischsprachlichen Umgebung entstanden ist..." p. 122.) What was earlier seen as Runden... auf einer Rennbahn, is by Starke interpreted as "Wendungen". So, instead of laps, we have "turns" (-vartanna), and not in a track or racecourse (Rennbahn), but in what Starke describes as "vorgeschriebene Fahrspur", that is, -va$anna. Kikkuli did not train horses for "Pferdewettrennen... wofuer es im Text keinerlei Anhalt gibt...", but for war. After discussing the difficult term wa$anna- over many pages, he concludes on p. 103: "Zusammenfassend bleibt noch einmal festzustellen, dass das Wort wasanna- im Kikkuli-Text fuer die Hufschagfigur des Zirkels mit eingeschriebenem S-Bogen bzw. Achter steht. Setzt man fuer wasanna- die Bedeutung "(vorgeschriebene) Fahrspur" an (was sinngemaess dem Terminus 'Hufschlagfigur' entspricht), so laesst sich diese Deutung wohl auch mit dem heute bevorzugte Anschluss... an fruehindoarisch *va(:)z?hana- (zu vedisch vah- "fahren" < *vaz?h- < uridg. *weg^h-) vereinbaren, selbst wenn sich fuer den relativ spaet bezeugten altindischen Fortsetzer va:hana-, der fuer "the act of drawing, carrying, conveying, [...] driving, riding, guiding (horses)" bzw. fuer "any vehicle or conveyance or draught-animal" steht, keine adaequate Bedeutung feststellen laesst." As we see, Starke is stretching the meaning of wa$anna- somewhat. Is his solution acceptable to Indologists? If it were not for the strange "genitive" wa$anna$aia, I would have thought that wa$anna- could be related to the Hurrian stem fa$-, "to enter", and interpret wa$anna as an essive of *fa$anni. This genitive is found in the expression nawartanni wa$anna$aia, translated by Starke as "in der Neuner-Wendung des wasanna-..." He sees the redundant -a- in -$aia as a "Luwianism", but it might also be a "Hurrianism", since I believe the sequence -$j- (-sy-) is unknown in Hurrian words. Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Dec 30 01:12:28 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 01:12:28 +0000 Subject: Data migration / microfilm (was PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM)) In-Reply-To: <3A48BA64.C7F914F5@anthosimprint.com> Message-ID: <161227066112.23782.14636848656525571950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 26 Dec 2000, Gunthard Mueller wrote: > Oxford has come a long way. People like Lou Burnard and Susan Hockey > identified the need for normed, standard data exchange in the > humanities very early on and were instrumental in the process of > getting us normed! Most of us nowadays use the SGML ISO complex of > norms. I generally encourage these norms, too, i.e. saving data in > formats that comply with these norms. More information on SGML normed > encoding is available from http://www.uic.edu/orgs/tei. Lou and Susan are good friends. I learned Snobol from Susan in the late 1970s, and have been in touch since. I saw Lou just before Christmas, and Susan has just taken up the chair in Library Studies at UCL (where I am a lecturer). Her inaugural was a wonderful survey of standards work. With Lou in Oxford, Susan back in England at London, and both John Lavagnino and Willard Mccarty at Kings also in London, the UK is has enormous strengths in humanities' computing nowadays. If you examine the preliminary matter of the TEI standard, incidentally, you will see that I chaired the Document Header Committee. I wrote the first draft of that part of the TEI standard. > My main problem at the moment is getting certain microfilm formats > converted to digitial. There is a lot of valuable material on > microfilm which is physically decaying. We have some valuable material > from Baroda here that needs attention. Does anybody know of a > state-of-the-art place where 35mm microfilm material can be digitised > without bankrupting the libraries and museums we work for? There are two important centres in India which could probably do this work: the IGNCA in New Delhi, and the RMRL in Chennai. Both have 35mm microfilm digitization equipment. RMRL has a Wicks & Wilson microfilm scanner; they have spare capacity and are looking for work. Contact: ROJA MUTHIAH RESEARCH LIBRARY Best, Dominik From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 30 01:26:11 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 01:26:11 +0000 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227066114.23782.16231117935911517550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< In the late 1800s, when the Shanans agitated for entry into a temple in Sivakasi, the manager first closed the temple. That was considered a partial victory by Shanans and their opponents. Most opposed to Shanan mobility were the Maravans, their near neighbors in space and status. A "clean" caste, the Maravans could enter the temple at Sivakasi. To share it with the Shanans, a polluting caste according to the ritual definitions of traditional society, seemed intolerable. >>> Susan and Lloyd don't know old Tamil literature. Earlier, maRavans inhabitants of the inhospitable pAlai landscape eked out a living by waylaying the traffic. Best wishes, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 30 02:17:44 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 02:17:44 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066117.23782.9745407944088984056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >also like to know if this interpretation is universal in Bengal, or if it >is confined to Tantric circles. Possibly, Kripal is not so Freudian as I >thought. More info out there? If I remember right, more than three years after reading Kali's Child, Kripal explicitly mentions that he has kept away from Tantric interpretations in favor of psychoanalytic models. My reaction was that more or less the only thing Kripal took away from Tantra were the biological referents of linga and yoni, and that therefore Tantra was "world-affirming". And about the only thing he seemed to know about Vedanta was that it was monastic, and therefore, "world-denying" (classically, even before Sw. Vivekananda). Invoking Freud is the easiest way to let off Kripal easy. Even I can point out some 20 different features where psychoanalysis has moved beyond Freudian and Jungian and beyond neo-Freudian and neo-Jungian theories. Kripal, I'm sure, can write a learned response on why he is not very Freudian after all, and in the process, ignore the basic issues brought up by Sw. Tyagananda. I would suggest that those who want to comment on the "native" rebuttal should first read both Kripal's book and the essay in response. I wish people don't rush to judge the latter, without reading the former, and using pret-a-porter terms like denial, amateur versus professional, presumed religious apologetics of the Swami versus assumed scholarliness of the PhD. Give both sides a fair reading. You might be surprised with the results. I have heard that practicing psychoanalysts, psychiatrists and clinical psychologists keep in shape by subjecting themselves to psychological evaluation periodically. I think it is time to insist upon similar procedural safeguards for those who want to "academically" psychoanalyze religion and religious figures. At this juncture, may I also point out to the well-meaning Indians on this list that this is perhaps not the best online forum for this topic? As one can see, some list-members may not even have read Kripal. The more appropriate place to bring it up would be the RISA (Religion in South Asia) mailing list, where I'm sure 90% of the members would have read Kripal. At least a few among them would have picked up Sw. Tyagananda's response at the recent AAR annual meeting. Re: Sivalinga and Viagra, Peck mentions yogic exercises with uurdhvaretas goals. I would imagine that the goal of Viagra is very much adhoretas. So, Bhadraiah, one is not an alternative for the other. It would be positively dangerous for a Viagra- seeking man to attempt the other. Without prejudice to the Yoga practice and its effects, I think there is more to liberation than being a result of an upward flow of semen. If it is nothing more than a physiological male response to a specific kind of Yoga practice, why, I would bundle up all my books on Vedanta and Buddhism. I would either go to Pune/Mysore and perfect my yogAsanas under Iyengar or Jois, or better still, simply buy the latest New Age book on Tantric sex and get liberated! Cheers, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 30 08:03:36 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 03:03:36 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066125.23782.16086141827574395229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan >I would suggest that those who want to comment on the "native" >rebuttal should first read both Kripal's book and the essay in >response. Many sanskrit words evolved into local languages with different meanings. The word "kAm" means "desire" in sanskrit and Telugu, but in Hindi it means "work". The word "udyog" means "higher position" in sanskrit, "employment" in telugu, and "industry or factory" in Hindi. Words borrowed from Skt can mean anything depending on local language. As for gestures, if one goes to Hyderabad (AP), men hug each other warmly in friendship, which can mean quite something in the west. Off topic: >Re: Sivalinga and Viagra, I was having fun (sorry!). The human body is an integrated organic entity, and every part affects every other part. So one can takeup any data and prove anything, like we can do in Indology. tantrA may have its own theology about retas. But I suspect efforts that relate every pelvic meditation to sex. The pelvic region is a very complex mesh of nerves, and many other non-sexual entities are associated with it. By the way the symptoms explained for Urdhvaretas are no way related to sex, they seem to match my explanation of udAna which has nothing to do with sex, but will have an impact on it as everything is related. I also suspect any reckless relation (of Urdhvaretas etc, done by some people) to soma. As per "Carrying forward of agni and soma" in A.B., soma is intricately linked to vAc, and vAc is related to somatic nervous system; this is an important bench mark. (Please note the IE parallel between vedic "soma" and "somatic".) Best Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From giravani at JUNO.COM Sat Dec 30 05:32:30 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 05:32:30 +0000 Subject: Karave caste and Kurus Message-ID: <161227066121.23782.8277907785796848447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raveen Satkurunathan"--Many South Indian derived Sinhalese coastal castes in Sri Lanka namely Karave---claim that they are descendants of Kurus of Mahabharat fame...". I do not know connection between Karave and Kuru is based on true tradition or just based on phonetic similitude. I know however that Kurus and Kambojas in the past did reach Shri Lanka as attested by the presence of these name in the ancient cave inscriptions of Lanka.The Rajput queen Padmini who prefered fire to the capture of Allauddin Khilji was the princess of Lanka from the princely family related to the ancient Kambojas. The Sinhelese believe their connection to the north-west of the Indian sub-continent.And the ancient names of states of Gujarat, Maharashtra,and Karnatak were different. The ancient name of the Jog fall(near Sharvati) from Karnatak state is available. All this information project pre-history of India different from the one we are told to accept without questioning.Thanks. From tawady at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 30 07:04:10 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 07:04:10 +0000 Subject: Karave caste and Kurus Message-ID: <161227066123.23782.7498903294630985772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 30 Dec 2000 05:32:30 +0000, Narayan R.Joshi wrote: >Raveen Satkurunathan"--Many South Indian derived Sinhalese coastal castes >in Sri Lanka namely Karave---claim that they are descendants of Kurus of >Mahabharat fame...". I do not know connection between Karave and Kuru is >based on true tradition or just based on phonetic similitude. The Sinhala word 'Karave' is ultimately derived from the Tamil, 'Karaiyar' ( coastal dweller). The 'folk etymology' of Karai with Kuru had already been made in Tamil Nadu before associated with the Kshatriyisation of "lower" castes before these people showed up in historical records of Sri Lanka, which is pretty late. >I know >however that Kurus and Kambojas in the past did reach Shri Lanka as >attested by the presence of these name in the ancient cave inscriptions of >Lanka.The Rajput queen Padmini who prefered fire to the capture of >Allauddin Khilji was the princess of Lanka from the princely family related >to the ancient Kambojas. The Sinhelese believe their connection to the >north-west of the Indian sub-continent.And the ancient names of states of >Gujarat, Maharashtra,and Karnatak were different. The ancient name of the >Jog fall(near Sharvati) from Karnatak state is available. All this >information project pre-history of India different from the one we are told >to accept without questioning.Thanks. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Dec 30 16:14:58 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 11:14:58 -0500 Subject: Moon and Cycle of death and rebirth Message-ID: <161227066141.23782.9014808932073480576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, I would appreciate if anybody could tell me if in any of the ancient north Indian traditions, the moon is described as exemplifying the nature of life as consisting of waxing and waning, dying and being born again. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Dec 30 11:37:36 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 12:37:36 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066126.23782.14681059139858260709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadraiah Mallampalli [SMTP:vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 30. desember 2000 09:04: > Many sanskrit words evolved into local languages with different meanings. > The word "kAm" means "desire" in sanskrit and Telugu, but in Hindi it means > "work". Just a footnote: Hindi "kAm" is not connected with skt. kAma ("desire") but with karma "work". > I also suspect any reckless relation (of Urdhvaretas etc, done by some > people) to soma. As per "Carrying forward of agni and soma" in A.B., soma is > intricately linked to vAc, and vAc is related to somatic nervous system; > this is an important bench mark. (Please note the IE parallel between vedic > "soma" and "somatic".) Again, a misunderstanding: Vedic soma is related to the root su = "press", whereas Greek sOma / sOmatos means "body" and is unrelated to su. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 30 12:56:03 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 12:56:03 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066128.23782.10526423683574963918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Many sanskrit words evolved into local languages with different meanings. >The word "kAm" means "desire" in sanskrit and Telugu, but in Hindi it means >"work". Hindi "kAm" is from skt. karma/pali kamma. But skt. kAma 'desire' is possibly Dravidian, both VishNu and his son kAman are painted black and Tamil literature derives kAmam from the 2500 year old TolkAppiyam sUtram: "kam niRaintu iyalum". "kamam/kAmam" in Tamil means "filling/filled with" (desire). Regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 30 21:21:09 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 13:21:09 -0800 Subject: Moon and Cycle of death and rebirth Message-ID: <161227066151.23782.9702099769167804903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Bijoy Misra wrote: > On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > > Dear List members, > > > > I would appreciate if anybody could tell me if in any of the ancient north > > Indian traditions, the moon is described as exemplifying the nature of life > > as consisting of waxing and waning, dying and being born again. Thanks in > > advance. > > > See bhAgavata purANa, the section on avadhuta in 11th skandha. > Moon is fifth or sixth teacher and will talk as above. > But Bhagavatha purANa would not exacly qualify for an "ancient" Skt. text. It is a medieval composition. Moreover it was authored in Tamilland by a Tamil or someone who was immeresed in local Tamil culture and customs including vocabulary. One of the give-aways by way of vocabulary is "avamocana" for "inn" a raw translation of the Tamil verbal nouns "viTuti" or "vITu" < Ta. viTu = to stay, to leave, to be liberated. It abounds in very Tamil-only traditions and ideas such as the pAvai vow. > Happy New Year! > > BM Regards P. Chandrasekaran. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Sat Dec 30 13:52:39 2000 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 13:52:39 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066134.23782.6654898638156138552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The first law of Indology : just as rivers and streams find their way into the sea, so any discussion will find its way to Tamil etymology, and tending to words related to "black". -Arun Gupta From rpeck at NECA.COM Sat Dec 30 19:01:30 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 14:01:30 -0500 Subject: .Siddhis and Indology Message-ID: <161227066147.23782.914101626966229887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> .Are not the majority of the ancient writings of India concerned with the siddhis of the superior person? Modern Liberal academicians deny the existence of siddhis; since everyone is declared to be equal or because such concepts are considered to be superstitious religious beliefs. What is left to study? I argue that many of the reports of siddhis were quite scientific and can be verified with modern scholastic effort. Regards, Bob Peck Rpeck at neca.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 30 14:22:25 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 14:22:25 +0000 Subject: KarnATaka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) Message-ID: <161227066136.23782.3174615442427605267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. N. R. Joshi wrote: <<< Raveen Satkurunathan"--Many South Indian derived Sinhalese coastal castes in Sri Lanka namely Karave---claim that they are descendants of Kurus of Mahabharat fame...". I do not know connection between Karave and Kuru is based on true tradition or just based on phonetic similitude. I know however that Kurus and Kambojas in the past did reach Shri Lanka as attested by the presence of these name in the ancient cave inscriptions of Lanka.The Rajput queen Padmini who prefered fire to the capture of Allauddin Khilji was the princess of Lanka from the princely family related to the ancient Kambojas. The Sinhelese believe their connection to the north-west of the Indian sub-continent.And the ancient names of states of Gujarat, Maharashtra,and Karnatak were different. The ancient name of the Jog fall(near Sharvati) from Karnatak state is available. All this information project pre-history of India different from the one we are told to accept without questioning.Thanks. >>> What is the ancient name of Karnatak state? Both the words, Karnataka and KannaDa go back to the same roots in Dravidian, and they are not from any other langauge root as far as I can see. I would very much appreciate and request Kannada scholars like Prof. Vasundara Filliozat, Dr. Harihareshvara and Prof. R. Zydenbos on this list to explain how the words, KannaDa and Karnataka are explained in KannaDa sources. In Tamil, CilappatikAram (pre-5th century) mentions "karunaTar", the Karnataka people. Dr. Vasundhara told me that Vijayanagar empire is a misnomer, and all early inscriptions mention only Karnataka empire. I found a valuable reference linking the words - Karnataka and KannaDa. In the 11th century tiruviLaiyATal purANam by perumpaRRappuliyUr nampi (called as 'old' TP, since more elaborate TP from th 17th century also exists.) KaLabhra rulers are said to come from "kan2n2a maNTalam". Clearly, "kan2n2a maNTalam" refers to "karunATaka/karnATaka". karnATaka/kannAD can be explained in two ways: a) "kalnAD" = boulder country, part of Deccan, also, 'malEnAD' in Hassan area. or b) "karunAD" = country of black earth, Usually black earth signifies fertility and hence praised. I seek guidance from KannaDa experts as to whether a) or b) is correct. Earlier, I have shown in this list, the consonant assimilation from Skt. to Pkt. follows the pattern exhibited in Dravidian. and hence an areal feature in all of India. See my mail, and Parpola and K. Nachimuthu (Head, Dept. of Tamil, U. of Kerala, Trivandram). http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R4239 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R4492 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R14635 Regards, N. Ganesan PS: Raveen is correct that Kuru and Karave (< tamil 'karai' meaning shore) are unrelated. The MBh. Kuru can be compared with tamil 'ko_lu' = plough, u_lavar = farmers, and k -> z change in the IVC noted by Witzel leads the Punjabi name Shourie (as in Arun Shourie) to be linked with Drav. "ko_lu". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Sat Dec 30 13:29:37 2000 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 14:29:37 +0100 Subject: Data migration / microfilm (was PDF (was publication of IASSpapers on CDROM)) Message-ID: <161227066132.23782.13851259322037124090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Dominik, talked to Lou the other day, and learned from your involvement with them. Sounds like we are actually thinking along similar lines... At least we share two teachers... I didn't know Susan Hockey was back in London. That's phantastic. Thank you also for the information on microfilm digitisation possibilities in India. The RMRL already got in touch with me, but prefers to discuss coop off the list. Anyway, thanks for the information. Maybe we can meet on the metadata issue when I am in London next? If you let me have your personal mail address I could get in touch off the list. Best wishes for the New Year, Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Tue, 26 Dec 2000, Gunthard Mueller wrote: > > > Oxford has come a long way. People like Lou Burnard and Susan Hockey > > identified the need for normed, standard data exchange in the > > humanities very early on and were instrumental in the process of > > getting us normed! Most of us nowadays use the SGML ISO complex of > > norms. I generally encourage these norms, too, i.e. saving data in > > formats that comply with these norms. More information on SGML normed > > encoding is available from http://www.uic.edu/orgs/tei. > > Lou and Susan are good friends. I learned Snobol from Susan in the late > 1970s, and have been in touch since. I saw Lou just before Christmas, and > Susan has just taken up the chair in Library Studies at UCL (where I am a > lecturer). Her inaugural was a wonderful survey of standards work. With > Lou in Oxford, Susan back in England at London, and both John Lavagnino > and Willard Mccarty at Kings also in London, the UK is has enormous > strengths in humanities' computing nowadays. > > If you examine the preliminary matter of the TEI standard, incidentally, > you will see that I chaired the Document Header Committee. I wrote the > first draft of that part of the TEI standard. > > > My main problem at the moment is getting certain microfilm formats > > converted to digitial. There is a lot of valuable material on > > microfilm which is physically decaying. We have some valuable material > > from Baroda here that needs attention. Does anybody know of a > > state-of-the-art place where 35mm microfilm material can be digitised > > without bankrupting the libraries and museums we work for? > > There are two important centres in India which could probably do this > work: the IGNCA in New Delhi, and the RMRL in Chennai. Both have 35mm > microfilm digitization equipment. RMRL has a Wicks & Wilson microfilm > scanner; they have spare capacity and are looking for work. > Contact: ROJA MUTHIAH RESEARCH LIBRARY > > Best, > Dominik From zydenbos at GMX.LI Sat Dec 30 13:31:02 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 14:31:02 +0100 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227066130.23782.4050186440975876252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 28 Dec 2000, um 21:03 schrieb Subrahmanya S.: 7F00,0000,0000> As usual this is typical spinning. Typical, usual Subrahmanya! 7F00,0000,0000> It was the european colonialists who introduced the concept > of race in the first place and then went onto conjure up > an Aryan invasion - Now the natives are being accused of > having thought their fellow cuntrymen are "racially and religiously > inferior" !!! Sorry that I remember the races in the Veda; or Manu, of the Manusm.rti; or remember those millions of people called Dalitas, and how they were and still are treated. Or that they had a spokesperson named Ambedkar, who wrote in his book _Annihilation of Caste_ that Hinduism must be destroyed in order for India to have social justice. Now why should he have written such things, if there were no "racially and religiously inferior" people? 7F00,0000,0000> As usual europeanists try to hasten to cover up abuse of India > by western colonialist and religious ideologies. I thought I explicitly did not do so - hm, oh well... Calumniare audacter, semper aliquid haeret... Maybe Ambedkar too was a western colonialist or something. Anyhow, something tells me that the Dalitas (etc.) will be around for a long time yet, and that it takes more than mere shouting to cover them up. And this travesty: 7F00,0000,0000> For Indians to make an effort to know their own history is to be > labelled chauvinistic ! ..., i.e., shouting at someone in an obvious attempt at shouting away unpleasant facts, is not chauvinism, but something worse, and should have no place in scholarly exchanges. Am 29 Dec 2000, um 10:19 schrieb Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan: 7F00,0000,0000> Romanticizing colonialism does not help. (I hope this does not mean that VV thinks I did that, because it would mean that he cannot read.) Romanticising the past is hardly better than romanticising colonialism. It is a waste of time. It does not explain, e.g., the existence of newer religious groups that came into being to religiously emancipate those who were discriminated against. Looking at things as they were and are is always better, and certainly on an originally academic forum, than any kind of romanticising. 7F00,0000,0000> The last remark does not carry much weight. Race was an unknown > concept in India. As far as religion is concerned there was no idea > of One True Male God and all religious paths were considered by and > large valid Apart from that there are Vedic passages that highlight differences in physical features of people, I think the distinctions between race, var.na, jaati make little difference for those who are at the receiving end of discrimination and exploitation: in any case, they were 'born wrongly'... I am very happy that this does not matter in some Hindu minorities, where it also does not matter that I am a 'mleccha' (do we remember the mlecchas?). There are many things in India that are genuinely admirable, but romantic fantasies, or misleading, quasi-indignant loudness, do nobody any good; they do not help India either. Recognising some of one's cultural weaknesses is a sign of one's overall cultural strength. Some of our friends on this list have not yet realised that. RZ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 3441 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Dec 30 20:18:15 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 15:18:15 -0500 Subject: Moon and Cycle of death and rebirth In-Reply-To: <6a.9fa5326.277f6402@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227066149.23782.5273614671816912688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > Dear List members, > > I would appreciate if anybody could tell me if in any of the ancient north > Indian traditions, the moon is described as exemplifying the nature of life > as consisting of waxing and waning, dying and being born again. Thanks in > advance. > See bhAgavata purANa, the section on avadhuta in 11th skandha. Moon is fifth or sixth teacher and will talk as above. Happy New Year! BM From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 30 15:57:42 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 15:57:42 +0000 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) Message-ID: <161227066138.23782.7403288851683984228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. N. R. Joshi wrote: <<< Raveen Satkurunathan"--Many South Indian derived Sinhalese coastal castes in Sri Lanka namely Karave---claim that they are descendants of Kurus of Mahabharat fame...". I do not know connection between Karave and Kuru is based on true tradition or just based on phonetic similitude. I know however that Kurus and Kambojas in the past did reach Shri Lanka as attested by the presence of these name in the ancient cave inscriptions of Lanka.The Rajput queen Padmini who prefered fire to the capture of Allauddin Khilji was the princess of Lanka from the princely family related to the ancient Kambojas. The Sinhelese believe their connection to the north-west of the Indian sub-continent.And the ancient names of states of Gujarat, Maharashtra,and Karnatak were different. The ancient name of the Jog fall(near Sharvati) from Karnatak state is available. All this information project pre-history of India different from the one we are told to accept without questioning.Thanks. >>> What is the ancient name of Karnatak state? Both the words, Karnataka and KannaDa go back to the same roots in Dravidian, and they are not from any other langauge root as far as I can see. I would very much appreciate and request Kannada scholars like Prof. Vasundara Filliozat, Dr. Harihareshvara and Prof. R. Zydenbos on this list to explain how the words, KannaDa and Karnataka are explained in KannaDa sources. In Tamil, CilappatikAram (pre-5th century) mentions "karunaTar", the Karnataka people. Dr. Vasundhara told me that Vijayanagar empire is a misnomer, and all early inscriptions mention only Karnataka empire. I found a valuable reference linking the words - Karnataka and KannaDa. In the 11th century tiruviLaiyATal purANam by perumpaRRappuliyUr nampi (called as 'old' TP, since more elaborate TP from th 17th century also exists.) KaLabhra rulers are said to come from "kan2n2a maNTalam". Clearly, "kan2n2a maNTalam" refers to "karunATaka/karnATaka". karnATaka/kannAD can be explained in two ways: a) "kalnAD" = boulder country, part of Deccan, also, 'malEnAD' in Hassan area. or b) "karunAD" = country of black earth, Usually black earth signifies fertility and hence praised. I seek guidance from KannaDa experts as to whether a) or b) is correct. Earlier, I have shown in this list, the consonant assimilation from Skt. to Pkt. follows the pattern exhibited in Dravidian, and hence an areal feature in all of India. See my mail, and Parpola and K. Nachimuthu (Head, Dept. of Tamil, U. of Kerala, Trivandram) responses. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R4239 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R4492 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R14635 As a conclusion, you write: >All this information project pre-history of India different from the one we > are told to accept without questioning. I am not clear, are you working on any theory on pre-history of India different from the "one we are told to accept"? Also, what is the ancient name "Karnatak"? Regards, N. Ganesan PS: Raveen is correct that Kuru and Karave (< tamil 'karai' meaning shore) are unrelated. The MBh. Kuru can be compared with tamil 'ko_lu' = plough, u_lavar = farmers, and k -> z change in the IVC noted by Witzel leads the Punjabi name Shourie (as in Arun Shourie) to be linked with Drav. "ko_lu". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Sat Dec 30 16:06:32 2000 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 17:06:32 +0100 Subject: idealism, Yogacara etc. Message-ID: <161227066139.23782.3524205652345606215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Wayman > has also written several useful papers now archived on the internet > discussing the problem. > Can you give some adresses, please? Erik Hoogcarspel From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Sat Dec 30 04:29:29 2000 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard B Mahoney) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 17:29:29 +1300 Subject: "Saantideva's "Sik.saasamuccaya Message-ID: <161227066119.23782.8226747676738138255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Readers, It might be a bit late in the year for all this, although judging by recent postings there are still a good few of you out there. I can only cross my fingers and hope for the best. I'm working on "Saantideva's "Sik.saasamuccaya and "Sik.saasamuccayakaarikaa and having trouble translating a passage in the body of the "SS which introduces the first "sloka of the "SSK. This passage follows a section in praise of the advantages of a fortunate birth (k.sa.na). If possible, I'd like one or two of you to have a go at this passage so I can compare your translation with my own and that of Bendall and Rouse. Here is the passage in question. It appears reasonably self-contained. I am transliterating from the Devanaagarii without separating the words. || tadeva.mvidha.m samaagamamaasaadya sa.mv.rtiparamaarthata.h suviditasa.msaaradu.skhasyopa"samanasukhaabhilaa.si.no buddhagotraanubhaavaattu yasya mahaasatvasyaiva.m pratyavek.sotpadyate || For those of you with a copy to hand, this passage is from p.~2 lns.~8--9 of: Bendall, C., trans., ``"Sik.saasamuccaya, a compendium of Buddhistic teaching compiled by "Saantideva chiefly from earlier Mahaayaana Suutras'', Bibliotheca Buddhica (St. Petersburg: Commissionaires de l'Academie Imperiale des Sciences, 1897--1902) The only translation I have to hand seems -- although I may well be wrong -- to be problematic, i.e., pp.~2--3 of: Bendall, C. & Rouse, W. H. D. eds., ``"Sik.saa Samuccaya: A Compendium of Buddhist Doctrine'' (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1971) I would be grateful for any help you could give. I usually bother my supervisor with things of this sort. Unfortunately he's taking refuge in the States over summer. 8-( Many regards and a pleasant and profitable new year, Richard Mahoney -- end ====================================================================== Richard Mahoney Telephone: +64-3-351-5831 78 Jeffreys Rd Christchurch NEW ZEALAND mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Sat Dec 30 16:39:27 2000 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 17:39:27 +0100 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227066143.23782.8053346742853222453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > . It > is not clear to me on what basis one can classify "double- > truth" theories into types, and say that this type is > different from that one. Each such theory presents its own > unique features. I agree with mr. Zydenbos here, as I understand the point of view of the prasangika-madhyamakas: language refers to things and a world which isn't there. So all speech and thinking is based on an unjustified 'belief in a world' (Merleau-Ponty). This is simply our condition humaine. So for practical purposes this ontic illusion is necessairy, however form an ontological perspective it's an illusion and desastrous for our self-understanding and this keeps us from inner peace. This duplex ordo is a keystone in madhyamaka philosophy, it's very different from a multiple truth system based on upa-ya kaus'alya as f.i. can be found in the Saddharma Pun.d.ari-ka, Bhagavad G?ta and other rethorical texts. Erik Hoogcarspel From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Sat Dec 30 18:34:48 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 19:34:48 +0100 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" In-Reply-To: <3A4E0FBF.4060309@kabelfoon.nl> Message-ID: <161227066145.23782.7990540307719358242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >This >duplex ordo is a keystone in madhyamaka philosophy, it's very different >from a multiple truth system based on upa-ya kaus'alya as f.i. can be >found in the Saddharma Pun.d.ari-ka, Bhagavad G?ta and other rethorical >texts. Where in the Gita do you see a reference to a multiple truth system based on upaya-kausalya? Regards, Martin Gansten From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 31 03:37:29 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 21:37:29 -0600 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227066158.23782.631520961345232034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I must remind Dr.Zydenbos, that while India remains a poor place (because of massive orderly looting by europeans), it remains democratic and has taken great steps in breaking bonds that hold back dalits. Even the priesthood is not the sole prerogative of any one group now. In addition to the head of state,the leader of the major ruling political party in India is a dalit. No country in Europe can claim having minorities or the underclass as heads of state or occupying positions of power. It must also be pointed out that Europeans have conducted the most horrific crimes ever and eliminated entire civilizations. No amount of loud speaking can cover it up. Europe still has the greatest amount of racist attacks and killings. Compared to that the incidents in India are much less. Remember India has almost 2.5 to 3 times more population and many times poorer While Europe may have many good admirable things. Academic prejudice and using old ideas to reinforce euro supremacist notions is present in Europe. Recognizing some of such weaknesses is definitely a sign of overall academic strength. Some of our friends on this list have not yet realized that. Subrahmanya _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mdelhey at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 30 21:47:59 2000 From: mdelhey at YAHOO.COM (Martin Delhey) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 22:47:59 +0100 Subject: "Saantideva's "Sik.saasamuccaya Message-ID: <161227066153.23782.16708156201379354057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Richard B Mahoney wrote: > I'm working on "Saantideva's "Sik.saasamuccaya and > "Sik.saasamuccayakaarikaa and having trouble translating a passage in > the body of the "SS which introduces the first "sloka of the > "SSK. This passage follows a section in praise of the advantages of a > fortunate birth (k.sa.na). > > If possible, I'd like one or two of you to have a go at this passage > so I can compare your translation with my own and that of Bendall and > Rouse. > > Here is the passage in question. It appears reasonably > self-contained. I am transliterating from the Devanaagarii without > separating the words. > > || tadeva.mvidha.m samaagamamaasaadya sa.mv.rtiparamaarthata.h > suviditasa.msaaradu.skhasyopa"samanasukhaabhilaa.si.no > buddhagotraanubhaavaattu yasya mahaasatvasyaiva.m > pratyavek.sotpadyate || > > > For those of you with a copy to hand, this passage is from p.~2 > lns.~8--9 of: > > Bendall, C., trans., ``"Sik.saasamuccaya, a compendium of Buddhistic > teaching compiled by "Saantideva chiefly from earlier Mahaayaana > Suutras'', Bibliotheca Buddhica (St. Petersburg: Commissionaires de > l'Academie Imperiale des Sciences, 1897--1902) > > The only translation I have to hand seems -- although I may well be > wrong -- to be problematic, i.e., pp.~2--3 of: > > Bendall, C. & Rouse, W. H. D. eds., ``"Sik.saa Samuccaya: A > Compendium of Buddhist Doctrine'' (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1971) > > I think you are right in stating that Bendall's and Rouse's translation of the passage you cited is somewhat problematic. Instead of proposing a translation of the Sanskrit text, for the time being, I would like to communicate my own view of the overall structure of the passage to you. To my mind it is impossible to interpret it as a whole sentence, because no main clause can be detected. But the problems can be solved, if we admit, that the sentence does not end here, but not before l. 14. While the first verse ( yadaa mama ...) still belongs to the relative clause, insofar as it gives the contents of the bodhisattva's thought (or 'prayavek.saa'), the main clause begins with tenaatmana.h in l. 12 and ends with matir d.r.dhaa at he end of the second verse. tena in l. 12 (in my view, Bendall and Rouse have completely misunderstood its function) correlates with yasya in the passage you quoted and yasya as well as tena refer to the Bodhisattva. At least such an understanding would make sense to me. Obviously ?Saantideva has neatly arranged this sentence by incorporating two verses in it. For people out there who do not have the edition at hand, I will give the text of the rest of the sentence below. yadaa mama pare.saa.m ca bhaya.m du.skha.m ca na priya.m tadaatmana.h ko vi?se.so yat ta.m rak.saami netaram iti tenaatmana.h sattvadhaato?s ca du.skhaanta.m kartukaamena sukhaanta.m gantum icchataa 'sraddhaamuula.m d.r.dhiik.rtya bodhau kaaryaa matir d.r.dhaa Best regards, Martin Delhey _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From MathiasMetzger at AOL.COM Sun Dec 31 10:13:43 2000 From: MathiasMetzger at AOL.COM (Mathias Metzger) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 05:13:43 -0500 Subject: Moon and Cycle of death and rebirth Message-ID: <161227066167.23782.5231035935726158171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You should also take a look at the first chapter of the Kaushitaki-Upanishad (which is a very old text indeed). Happy New Year Mathias Metzger From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 31 07:29:26 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 07:29:26 +0000 Subject: Double truth etc Message-ID: <161227066163.23782.17030085438931737883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: >... In my opinion, all these are wrong. indra, >viSNu etc are merely symbols of the subject of "knowing". The fact that the >codification was lost does not give the right to any one to monopolyze a What if this opinion is mistaken? What if indra and vishNu are more than symbols? What if there was no codification to be lost in the first place? What if there were multiple codes, with each author speaking in his or her own favorite riddles? >subject one way or other. In the absence of a final proven opinion, all >possible opinions must be explored until one of them is proven. On what independent basis does one "finally" prove any opinion? If there is such a basis, I'd be much happier with it and forget about the "mere symbolism", which moreover has "lost" its codes. Vidyasankar From rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG Sat Dec 30 23:36:56 2000 From: rsrin at PACIFIC.NET.SG (R Srinivasan) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 07:36:56 +0800 Subject: Dravidian origins In-Reply-To: <3A4DF1A6.15726.1E1FE7@localhost> Message-ID: <161227066156.23782.3262032279903896460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How do I unsubscribe, can someone pleae help me retain my sanity? Thanks in advance and a very happy New Year to one and all! -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Robert Zydenbos Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 9:31 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Dravidian origins Am 28 Dec 2000, um 21:03 schrieb Subrahmanya S.: > As usual this is typical spinning. Typical, usual Subrahmanya! > It was the european colonialists who introduced the concept > of race in the first place and then went onto conjure up > an Aryan invasion - Now the natives are being accused of > having thought their fellow cuntrymen are "racially and religiously > inferior" !!! Sorry that I remember the races in the Veda; or Manu, of the Manusm.rti; or remember those millions of people called Dalitas, and how they were and still are treated. Or that they had a spokesperson named Ambedkar, who wrote in his book _Annihilation of Caste_ that Hinduism must be destroyed in order for India to have social justice. Now why should he have written such things, if there were no "racially and religiously inferior" people? > As usual europeanists try to hasten to cover up abuse of India > by western colonialist and religious ideologies. I thought I explicitly did not do so - hm, oh well... Calumniare audacter, semper aliquid haeret... Maybe Ambedkar too was a western colonialist or something. Anyhow, something tells me that the Dalitas (etc.) will be around for a long time yet, and that it takes more than mere shouting to cover them up. And this travesty: > For Indians to make an effort to know their own history is to be > labelled chauvinistic ! ..., i.e., shouting at someone in an obvious attempt at shouting away unpleasant facts, is not chauvinism, but something worse, and should have no place in scholarly exchanges. Am 29 Dec 2000, um 10:19 schrieb Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan: > Romanticizing colonialism does not help. (I hope this does not mean that VV thinks I did that, because it would mean that he cannot read.) Romanticising the past is hardly better than romanticising colonialism. It is a waste of time. It does not explain, e.g., the existence of newer religious groups that came into being to religiously emancipate those who were discriminated against. Looking at things as they were and are is always better, and certainly on an originally academic forum, than any kind of romanticising. > The last remark does not carry much weight. Race was an unknown > concept in India. As far as religion is concerned there was no idea > of One True Male God and all religious paths were considered by and > large valid Apart from that there are Vedic passages that highlight differences in physical features of people, I think the distinctions between race, var.na, jaati make little difference for those who are at the receiving end of discrimination and exploitation: in any case, they were 'born wrongly'... I am very happy that this does not matter in some Hindu minorities, where it also does not matter that I am a 'mleccha' (do we remember the mlecchas?). There are many things in India that are genuinely admirable, but romantic fantasies, or misleading, quasi-indignant loudness, do nobody any good; they do not help India either. Recognising some of one's cultural weaknesses is a sign of one's overall cultural strength. Some of our friends on this list have not yet realised that. RZ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sun Dec 31 15:38:41 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 07:38:41 -0800 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka Message-ID: <161227066172.23782.3866930623064496129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re. the Yaaj~navalkya citation from Yaaj~navalkya. Is this the Yaaj~navalkya believed to have authored the two Yajur Ved? collections (sa^mhitaa) ? the earlier ?Black? Taittiriiya Sa^mhitaa and the later ?White? Vaajasaneyii Sa^mhitaa? One wonders which it is. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From tyag at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Dec 31 13:25:17 2000 From: tyag at EARTHLINK.NET (Swami Tyagananda) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 08:25:17 -0500 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066169.23782.6664382115894135538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:42 AM 12/31/00 +0000, you wrote: >I would appreciate any pointers to textual citations of recaka, >pUraka and kumbhaka - terms associated with prANAyama practice. >They are not directly found in the pAtanjala yogasUtras or in >vyAsa's commentary. vAcaspati mizra uses these terms, but he >is not their inventor. Zankara already uses all three, in his >commentary on gItA 4. 29. Any older sources, e.g. mahAbhArata >or dharmazAstra/smRti texts or Buddhist texts? > >Happy new millennium everybody, >Vidyasankar Here's one reference. The three terms associated with prANAyama practice are mentioned by Yajnavalkya in a passage Zankara quotes in his commentary on the ZvetAzvatara UpaniZad. Swami Tyagananda From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 31 13:28:10 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 08:28:10 -0500 Subject: Double truth etc Message-ID: <161227066171.23782.8840763197352450460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan Before I answer these questions, I want to give a parallel. All those who go to a music concert may not have learnt music but they can enjoy a good recitation, and they can even locate apasvarams. All those who go to a football match may not be players but they understand the game. My opinions are like those of these amateurs. My assumption is that vedas are an expression of advaita; and they express nothing other than advaita. >>... In my opinion, all these are wrong. indra, viSNu etc are merely >> >>symbols of the subject of "knowing". The fact that the codification >> >>was lost does not give the right to any one to monopolyze a >What if this opinion is mistaken? What if indra and vishNu are >more than symbols? If they are more than symbols it leads to a situation of "multiple inheritance" such as in sAGkhya (which needs both puruSa and prakRti). Or it may mean we are mixing up the contexts like dvaita and advaita. The words mentioned in veda must necessarily be "mere symbols" with no extra value attached to them. When Existence twists or turns it is a new symbol. indra or viSNu may derive independently from Existence, probably because they have their own eternal checking accounts with Existence Bank Inc. So it gives us the impression that they are more than symbols; but still from the highest stand point they are mere symbols. A parallel: Multiple inheritance in C++ made programmers lazy as they started using this feature whenever they couldn't resolve a conflict. Designers of Java probably knew that advaita is the highest reality and eliminated this feature, and that forced people to think systematically. Now programmers create "interfaces" when they need multiple inheritance instead of multiple parent classes. Interfaces directly derive from the highest class but they can not contain any instance specific data (in our terms data specific to individual living beings); so they are used as universal functions like viSNu with no extra instantiation which would otherwise create multiple inheritance fallacy. Now it is entirely possible to instantiate an ojbect that has no other functionality other than the interface itself; that is how viSNu alone may be created. >What if there was no codification to be lost in the first place? If no codification is lost we have to conclude that the vedic rituals are meaningless acts or superstitions to cause rains progeny. >What if there were multiple codes, with each author speaking in his or >her >own favorite riddles? Inspite of each author having his/her own favorite riddles, there is a clear unity and integrity in all the vedic literature re: usage of symbols viSNu etc, inspite of the supposed antiquity of some parts such as Rgveda. The differences if any may be explained as differences in practices of some schools or some missing literature. (Please let me confess I have my own riddles and superstitions.) >>subject one way or other. In the absence of a final proven opinion, >>all >>possible opinions must be explored until one of them is proven. >On what independent basis does one "finally" prove any opinion? >If there is such a basis, I'd be much happier with it and forget >about the "mere symbolism", One way is, if questions of all practitioners and scholars can be answered satisfactorily in their respective languages, it can be taken as a proof for the time being. A sAGkhya scholar has to answered in the language of sAGkhya, dvaita scholar has to be answered in dvaita and so on. Ultimately I have to understand for myself, which will be the final proof for me. >which moreover has "lost" its codes. Isn't it a fact that nobody, after a time has been able to produce any new literature that has prajApati legends etc? If there is no break in tradition and lost codification we would see a continuity. Best regards, Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 31 08:42:45 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 08:42:45 +0000 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka Message-ID: <161227066165.23782.9092625452056515157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would appreciate any pointers to textual citations of recaka, pUraka and kumbhaka - terms associated with prANAyama practice. They are not directly found in the pAtanjala yogasUtras or in vyAsa's commentary. vAcaspati mizra uses these terms, but he is not their inventor. Zankara already uses all three, in his commentary on gItA 4. 29. Any older sources, e.g. mahAbhArata or dharmazAstra/smRti texts or Buddhist texts? Happy new millennium everybody, Vidyasankar ps. Here's hoping that tempers cool down in the new year. May I suggest taking a deep breath as a possible safeguard? :-) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sun Dec 31 05:22:50 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 10:52:50 +0530 Subject: .Siddhis and Indology In-Reply-To: <000801c07292$ef308520$120053be@lianda> Message-ID: <161227066161.23782.3447601517500221157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Bob Peck wrote: > I argue that many of the reports of siddhis were quite scientific and can be > verified with modern scholastic effort. Would welcome any relevant links, discussions, etc. This question must be discussed totally free from any biases. If there was any myth-making involved, this should be disentangled and the real story about these persons revealed. Samar From fushimi at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Dec 31 16:13:24 2000 From: fushimi at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Makoto FUSHIMI) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 11:13:24 -0500 Subject: EJVS 6-2 Message-ID: <161227066174.23782.17610068791496840787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We are pleased to announce that ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF VEDIC STUDIES, vol. 6, issue 2 (Dec. 2000) has just been released. It contains following papers: 1. Kim Plofker How to interpret astronomical references in Vedic texts? 2. B. N. Narahari Achar Comments on "The Pleiades and the Bears viewed from inside the Vedic texts" 3.B. N. Narahari Achar Searching for nakSatras in the Rgveda This issue is now available on the EJVS web site. Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs Makoto Fushimi -- FUSHIMI, Makoto From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Dec 31 18:20:11 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 13:20:11 -0500 Subject: Moon and Cycle of death and rebirth Message-ID: <161227066180.23782.1900553169322595136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 12/31/2000 4:14:33 AM Central Standard Time, MathiasMetzger at AOL.COM writes: > You should also take a look at the first chapter of the Kaushitaki-Upanishad Thanks for the reference. This is what I found in S. Radhakrishnan's translation. "Then he said, those who, verily, depart from this world, they all in truth, go to the moon. In the earlier (bright) half, it (the moon) thrives on their breathing spirits, in the latter (dark) half, it causes them to be born (again). The moon, verily, is the door of the world of heaven. Whoever answers it (properly), him it sets free (to go to the highest worlds). But whoever answers it not, him having become rain, it rains down here..." This is different from what I was looking for. I was looking for something similar to the following. "In this world around which the moon god revolves demonstrating to even ignorant ones so that they learn that there is decrease (like waning) and there is increase (like waxing) ; there is dying (like setting) and there is being born (like rising)...". Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 31 20:58:34 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 14:58:34 -0600 Subject: (once was:) Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227066187.23782.10334583024568453695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Zydenbos wrote: > >Yes, all those mass murders at the hands of Norwegians, Swiss, >Poles... Belgians devastating the Indian countryside... not to >mention the Czechs and Fins. Really embarrassing. > > As usual, instead of answering questions about how Europe has treated its own people and what is being done about it - all you can do is indulge in sloppy sidetracking of the issue. It is very obvious that while you are intersted in lecturing to Indians, you do not seem to have the same standards for your own people. The natives no longer accept whatever nonsense some eurocentric academic dishes out. Let's hope that all these eurocentric criminals stop their evildoings at once in 2001! Perhaps eurocentric prejudice will disappear then? :-) And also Zydenbos' de-facto-racist politicising? Subrahmanya _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sun Dec 31 23:44:26 2000 From: hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 15:44:26 -0800 Subject: Derivation of the word/s Kannada & Karnaataka Message-ID: <161227066194.23782.5329424306093589668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> = = = = Derivation of the word/s Kannada & Karnataka = = = = This is in response to the inquiry (letter cited below, at the end) about the derivation of the word/s Kannada and Karnataka ---- There are quite a few interesting theories (and references) as to how we can derive and arrive at the word/s Kannada and Karnataka. First, I want to quote, in part, Mahamahopadhyaya R Narasimhacharya in his book "History of Kannada Language", 1969, Prasaranga Publications, University of Mysore, Mysore, pages 42-43: "1. Dr Gundert proposed 'kar-naadu', the 'black country.' as the original form of karnaata, in allusion to the black cotton soil which characterises the plateau of the 'Southern Dekhan' in which the language is spoken. 2. Other schoalrs have suggested 'Karanaata' is derived from 'karu-naadu' (the elevated country) with reference to the height of the plateau above the sea level. 3. Indian grammarians have expressed the opinion that Kannada is a 'tadbhava' or corrupt form of 'karnaata', [....] 4. [...]Fragrance is indicated by the derivation from 'kammittu' (=fragrant) + naadu(=country) which words when compounded become Kannaadu. 5. Kannaadu, that is Kannada thus means the language of the fragrant country, and the epithet 'fragrant'may be considered appropriate to the Kannada country abounding as it does in sandal [wood] forests and lotus ponds, the later being invariably described by Kannada poets as one of its most characteristic features." ---- A random sampling of some other theories: 1. Karunadagam (Dravida mUla pada)> karnataka 2. Karnataka>kannada (kEshiraaja, tadbhava prakaraNa, 13th Century Grammarian). 3. "karNeshu aTati, prabhUta yashasvinah Etad dEshastha rAjnah, guNAdikIrtanEna sarvEshAm karNEshu bhramati iti" > karnaataka ("shabda ratnaavalI") 4. karam>karu>kadu ( =large area); karu (mahaa)+naadu(rashtra)>karnaadu>kannada 5. kaN(= kaaNu, odamUdu)+AL>kannaLa>kannada 6. kar+naata+akam (='kariya nAdannu oLagomda pradEsha") 7. kaN + nIr>kaNNIr>kaNNar (Father Heras, 'people who have eyes'. "The ancient word Kannadigas by which the people of modern Karnataka are mentioned, seems to be a Sanskrit modification of 'KaNNir'") (Refer : Prof R Y Dhrawadkar, "Kannada Bhasha Shastra", Gita Book House, Mysore, Sixth Edition, 1987, pp 125- 134;and 'Kannada VishvakOsha, Vol iii, pp797, University of Mysore, 1971) Please also refer to: Dr R Caldwell, "Comparitive Grammar of Dravidian Languages". ---- And then, there is the famous quote by Raajashekhara (900 AD) in his 'Kaavyamimaasa': "rasah kO'pyastu kaapyastu rItih kO'pyastu vA guNah| sagarvam sarva karNaaTaah ( including this eMailer!) Tankaarottara paThinah||" (pp34) ---- If you need more info, please eMail me. -- -Harihareswara, Stockton, California ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 14:22:25 +0000 From: "N. Ganesan" Subject: KarnATaka/KannaDa What is the ancient name of Karnatak state? Both the words, Karnataka and KannaDa go back to the same roots in Dravidian, and they are not from any other langauge root as far as I can see. I would very much appreciate and request Kannada scholars [ ...] to explain how the words, KannaDa and Karnataka are explained in KannaDa sources. [....] Regards, N. Ganesan ====== From rpeck at NECA.COM Sun Dec 31 21:17:15 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 16:17:15 -0500 Subject: .Siddhis and Indology Message-ID: <161227066190.23782.12769368653414745031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> .>On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Bob Peck wrote:< >Are not the majority of the ancient writings of India concerned with the siddhis of the superior person?< > I argue that many of the reports of siddhis were quite scientific and can be verified with modern scholastic effort.< Samar Responds Would welcome any relevant links, discussions, etc. This question must be discussed totally free from any biases. If there was any myth-making involved, this should be disentangled and the real story about these persons revealed. I assume you are asking about the reality of "superior persons"? There have been a number of modern studies and writings about the superior person ranging from the ubermensch of Nietzsche to the self-actualized persons of Maslow. This site is hardly the place to argue either pro or con and is it not also politically incorrect to argue the existence of superior people? If the existence of superior people is denied, then obviously there are no siddhis (or religions). But suppose that there are superior people? I argue that an ancient science discovered the sources of greatness that stand scrutiny under modern investigation. Regards, Bob Peck Rpeck at neca.com From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Dec 31 16:33:14 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 16:33:14 +0000 Subject: Positive interaction Message-ID: <161227066176.23782.7614877196340735426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I like the relationship between the sanskrit word "KAma" and the earlier south Indian word.The word "KAma" was also in use in Persia around 550 BCE.It indicates that the process of mutual cultural exchanges among South Indians, North Indians,Iranians were rapid from the time of forest cutting activity of 1000 BCE.Referred to by the term ak.sara-samAmnAya, "collective statement of sounds", an ordered Sanskrit alphabet came into existence..about 700 BCE.So whatever deficiencies were there in the language of horse riding guests were completed with the advanced linguistic knowledge of elephant riding hosts resulting into a table of 50 sounds praised by modern linguists as nul secundum (unmatched).This is a good example of positive constructive mutual activity of the ancient Indians in developing sound linguistic tools as evidenced by the addition of the root "kam" and coining words like "KAmanA", "KAminI", "KAnta", "KAntA" etc extending to even technical terms like "AyaskAnti"(magnetic field) and "Vidyut-prabhA"(electic field). Languages are for enjoyments. A rich linguistic heritage of India means more enjoyment to Indians. I love Urdu (look at this sentence-KhAmosh bibi Allahki den hotI hai)and Gujarati-Kem che, kem che, Prem che, prem che! Love to all in the New year. From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Sun Dec 31 04:15:06 2000 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard B Mahoney) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 17:15:06 +1300 Subject: "Saantideva's "Sik.saasamuccaya In-Reply-To: <"from mdelhey"@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <161227066160.23782.9261878639119263829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Readers, I'd like to thank those who answered yesterday's query about a passage from the "Sik.saasamuccaya. Your suggestions, both on and off list, have been very useful. You are all right. If a passage contains a relative, then one really should search for its co-relative. It seems that in the new year I'd better take myself off to SKT~101. ;-) Anyway, for those who helped, and for others who may be interested, here is the whole `sentence.' || tadeva.mvidha.m samaagamamaasaadya sa.mv.rtiparamaarthata.h suviditasa.msaaradu.skhasyopa"samanasukhaabhilaa.si.no buddhagotraanubhaavaattu yasya mahaasatvasyaiva.m pratyavek.sotpadyate || yadaa mama pare.saa.m ca bhaya.m du.skha.m ca na priya.m | tadaatmana.h ko vi"se.so yatta.m rak.saami netaram | iti tenaatmana.h satvadhaato"sca || du.skhaanta.m kartukaamena sukhaanta.m gantumicchataa | "sraddhaamuula.m d.r.dhiik.rtya bodhau kaaryaa matird.r.dhaa || The following is my attempt at making sense of it. It goes without saying that I am wholly responsible for all inaccuracies and stupidities. There are still a number of things about which I'm unsure, especially the `two-truths' bit and the `buddhagotra' section. \begin{quotation} \noindent Having attained birth under favourable conditions, understanding well, conventionally and ultimately, the suffering associated with cyclic existence, desiring the pleasure of cessation, now, when this Mahasattva holds the opinion of the family of the Buddhas, accordingly, he enquires\,:\\ \noindent \flqq\,~When fear and suffering are liked neither by myself nor others, what is so special about this my self, that I should preserve it rather than others\,?~\,\frqq\,\\ \noindent [then it is said] by him, for himself and for the world of sentient beings\,:\\ \noindent \flqq\,~He who wishes to destroy suffering, he who strives to reach the limits of pleasure, should strengthen the source of faith, and firmly set his mind upon enlightenment.~\,\frqq\, \footnote{\cite[p.~2 lns.~8--14.]{bendall:ciksaasamuccaya}}\\ \end{quotation} Once again, thankyou for your help. And of course I would welcome any further comments. Many regards, Richard Mahoney -- end ====================================================================== Richard Mahoney Telephone: +64-3-351-5831 78 Jeffreys Rd Christchurch NEW ZEALAND mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Dec 31 23:29:16 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 18:29:16 -0500 Subject: Kali's Child and controversy In-Reply-To: <000801c0736f$0ef6e700$120053be@lianda> Message-ID: <161227066192.23782.8661712700354971058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, I happened meet Swami Tyagananda here in Boston today and he was kind enough to give me a copy of his rebuttal to "Kali's Child" of Jeffrey Kripal. I spent this afternoon going through Swami's notes and the paper he presented at AAR. I have not read "Kali's child". What appears to me it's a product of ignorance and immature knowledge in Sanskrit and Bengali. It's not clear if the book is written with a bias or ran out of hand. Have people read this book? Do you have an opinion? Is it an example of Rajaram on the other side? The greater scare is how many such books are in the making with cursory knowledge and borrowed translations? Let 2000 end with these thoughts and let's aim for cultural research without bias in the coming century! I will like to hear if anyone has read the book and has an opinion. Best regards, Bijoy Misra From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Sun Dec 31 17:32:42 2000 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 18:32:42 +0100 Subject: the so-called "double-truth" Message-ID: <161227066178.23782.5519529569130102665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten wrote: >> This >> duplex ordo is a keystone in madhyamaka philosophy, it's very different > > >from a multiple truth system based on upa-ya kaus'alya as f.i. can be > >> found in the Saddharma Pun.d.ari-ka, Bhagavad G?ta and other rethorical >> texts. > > > Where in the Gita do you see a reference to a multiple truth system based > on upaya-kausalya? Sorry, you're right it should have been 'a multiple truth system based on upa-ya kaus'alya as f.i. can be found in the Saddharma Pun.d.ari-ka or other didactical methods as found in ...' regards Erik Hoogcarspel From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sun Dec 31 20:15:12 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 20:15:12 +0000 Subject: Positive interaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066183.23782.5626306218651051801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan R.Joshi writes >I like the relationship between the sanskrit word "KAma" and the earlier >south Indian word.The word "KAma" was also in use in Persia around 550 >BCE. Haven't got many reference books available over the holidays, but Monier-Williams at least seems to think that kAma (root kam-) has IE antecedents. He relates it among others to the Latin words comus, "companion", and carus, "dear"--and, with loss of initial c, to the Latin verb amo, amare, "to love", with its many popular derivatives in European languages. So according to his theory,"When the moon hits your eye/ Like a big pizza pie/ It's...kAma!" Does anyone know whether this derivation is still accepted? Happy New Year to all-- Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From zydenbos at GMX.LI Sun Dec 31 19:38:24 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 20:38:24 +0100 Subject: (once was:) Dravidian origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066181.23782.1722407691836672199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 30 Dec 2000, um 21:37 schrieb Subrahmanya S.: > It must also be pointed out that Europeans have conducted the most > horrific crimes ever and eliminated entire civilizations. Yes, all those mass murders at the hands of Norwegians, Swiss, Poles... Belgians devastating the Indian countryside... not to mention the Czechs and Fins. Really embarrassing. Let's hope that all these heriditary criminals stop their evildoings at once in 2001! Perhaps Dalitahood will disappear then? :-) And also SS's de-facto-racist politicising? (This should be a nice final word on this topic.) RZ From Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Sun Dec 31 20:20:46 2000 From: Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 21:20:46 +0100 Subject: "Saantideva's "Sik.saasamuccaya Message-ID: <161227066185.23782.7201830732608813811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The passage to which Richard Mahoney drew attention and on which Martin Delhey offered very usefull comments is an interesting one. Some further progress should be possible with its translation. To mention two points (others could I think be added): > || tadeva.mvidha.m samaagamamaasaadya sa.mv.rtiparamaarthata.h > suviditasa.msaaradu.skhasyopa"samanasukhaabhilaa.si.no > buddhagotraanubhaavaattu yasya mahaasatvasyaiva.m > pratyavek.sotpadyate || > > yadaa mama pare.saa.m ca bhaya.m du.skha.m ca na priya.m | > tadaatmana.h ko vi"se.so yatta.m rak.saami netaram | iti > > tenaatmana.h satvadhaato"sca || > > du.skhaanta.m kartukaamena sukhaanta.m gantumicchataa | > "sraddhaamuula.m d.r.dhiik.rtya bodhau kaaryaa matird.r.dhaa || > > The following is my attempt at making sense of it. It goes without > saying that I am wholly responsible for all inaccuracies and > stupidities. There are still a number of things about which I'm > unsure, especially the `two-truths' bit and the `buddhagotra' section. > > \begin{quotation} > \noindent > Having attained birth under favourable conditions, understanding > well, conventionally and ultimately, the suffering associated with > cyclic existence, desiring the pleasure of cessation, now, when this > Mahasattva holds the opinion of the family of the Buddhas, > accordingly, he enquires\,:\\ 'Holds the opinion of the family of the Buddhas' is rather far from the Sanskrit. The position of the tu is not very comfortable (to me, but I have read little of the "Sik.saasamuccaya and am not really familiar with "Saantideva's prose style). buddhagotraanubhaavaat is of course an ablative, not another in the string of genitives (as the translation would seem to suggest). It is because the person belongs to the buddhagotra (rather than the "sraavakagotra or pratyekabuddhagotra) that he reflects thus and then should set his mind firmly on (complete) awakening. > \noindent > \flqq\,~When fear and suffering are liked neither by myself nor > others, what is so special about this my self, that I should > preserve it rather than others\,?~\,\frqq\,\\ > > \noindent > [then it is said] by him, for himself and for the world of sentient > beings\,:\\ > > \noindent > \flqq\,~He who wishes to destroy suffering, he who strives to reach > the limits of pleasure, should strengthen the source of faith, and > firmly set his mind upon > enlightenment.~\,\frqq\, > \footnote{\cite[p.~2 lns.~8--14.]{bendall:ciksaasamuccaya}}\\ > \end{quotation} The addition of '[then it is said]' is not justified, I should say. The second verse is not just something 'in quotation marks' but is genuinely part of the sentence, the main structure of which is tena bodhau kaaryaa mati.h. Happy New Year. Harunaga Isaacson Asien-Afrika-Institut Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Universit?t Hamburg From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 31 23:43:00 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 23:43:00 +0000 Subject: KarnATaka/KannaDa Message-ID: <161227066196.23782.1285895647421204915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let me give some more parallel Dravidian examples from a sister language for the assimilation observed in the words: karnATaka/kannaDa. a) Consider the tamil word, "kan2n2al" = sugar cane. Old sangam literature talks of sugar cane as of black color. "kArk karumpin2 kamaz Alai" - paTTin2ap pAlai. Obviously, karunal > kan2n2al is by assimilation. Indeed, we're fortunate to have attestation by Sambandhar of "karunal" = sugar cane. iruvarkku eri Aki nimirntAn2 uruvil periyALoTu cErum *karunal paravai kamaz kAzi* maruvap piriyum vin2ai mAyntE. (Tevaram 1.34.9) Both "kamaz-tal" (=emitting fragrance) and "paravai" (=field) occur along with sugar cane in Tamil literature. The other word for sugar cane, 'karumpu' means also 'black' cane. This karunal/kan2n2al assimilation happens in "kan2n2aG karEl" 'pitch black' and so on. b) 'kan2n2am' = "hole, to excavate" is related to the root, 'kallu-tal' = to dig. Interestingly, this tamil 'kallu-tal' is the root for Skt. kalA as well or tamil 'kalvi' = education. c) Like karnATaka/kannaDa pair, nerunal/nen2n2al = yesterday. d) Compare parutti = cotton with parunal/pan2n2al = cotton. -nal in nerunal, karunal etc. is a common noun ending, For example, "porunal" = porunai river (erroneously sanskritized as tAmraparNI). This -nal ending is sometimes used as -al, (nal/al like nIr/Iram where nIr = 'water', & Iram = 'wet'), 'porunan2' means 'warrior' as well as 'bard', both having to do with 'contact'. Tamil "pon2" = gold and metal seems to use this assimilation, ie., porun > pon2, (Cf. polam = gold, porutu = to fight, poruntu = to contact). ---------------- Both the words, Karnataka and KannaDa go back to the same roots in Dravidian, and they are not from any other langauge root as far as I can see. I would very much appreciate and request Kannada scholars like Prof. Vasundara Filliozat, Dr. Harihareshvara and Prof. R. Zydenbos on this list to explain how the words, KannaDa and Karnataka are explained in KannaDa sources. In Tamil, CilappatikAram (pre-5th century) mentions "karunaTar", the Karnataka people. Dr. Vasundhara told me that Vijayanagar empire is a misnomer, and all early inscriptions mention only Karnataka empire. I found a valuable reference linking the words - Karnataka and KannaDa. In the 11th century tiruviLaiyATal purANam by perumpaRRappuliyUr nampi (called as 'old' TP, since more elaborate TP from th 17th century also exists.) KaLabhra rulers are said to come from "kan2n2a maNTalam". Clearly, "kan2n2a maNTalam" refers to "karunATaka/karnATaka". karnATaka/kannAD can be explained in two ways: a) "kalnAD" = boulder country, part of Deccan, also, 'malEnAD' in Hassan area. or b) "karunAD" = country of black earth, Usually black earth signifies fertility and hence praised. I seek guidance from KannaDa experts as to whether a) or b) is correct. Earlier, I have shown in this list, the consonant assimilation from Skt. to Pkt. follows the pattern exhibited in Dravidian. and hence an areal feature in all of India. See my mail, and Parpola and K. Nachimuthu (Head, Dept. of Tamil, U. of Kerala, Trivandram). http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R4239 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R4492 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R14635 Regards, N. Ganesan PS: Raveen is correct that Kuru and Karave (< tamil 'karai' meaning shore) are unrelated. The MBh. Kuru can be compared with tamil 'ko_lu' = plough, u_lavar = farmers, and k -> z change in the IVC noted by Witzel leads the Punjabi name Shourie (as in Arun Shourie) to be linked with Drav. "ko_lu". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com