From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Aug 1 14:12:37 2000 From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 00 09:12:37 -0500 Subject: Marathi learning material in english In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060511.23782.8608247132437918013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to the resources mentioned by Dr Deshpande, Maxine Berntsen and (I believe) Sucheta Paranjpe have completed a fifth book for use in an intermediate/advanced Marathi course. UPenn might have information about these texts. And I recall listening to some audio made for teaching Marathi when I began to study the language about ten years ago. These tapes might be at UPenn. Also, you might find _Learning Marathi_ by Drs. Kalyan Kale and Anjali Soman useful. Their text emphasizes speaking and is used to train non-Marathi speaking Indian civil servants. A new edition with a revised table of contents and index should be out within the year. There is also a Marathi version of the Government of India's "Learn X in 30 Days". The latter two are probably available through South Asia Books. A number of Marathi-English dictionaries are available. I use Molesworth's and Deshpande's dictionaries, and for Old Marathi, a new dictionary compiled by S.G. Tulpule and Anne Feldhaus. The most thorough reference is the _Maharashtra Shubdakosh_, which you could use in conjunction with one of the Marathi-English dictionaries. Check out Columbia University's Inventory of Language Materials at: http://www.columbia.edu/~fp7/ilm/ Fran Pritchett maintains this site, with a catalogue of learning materials for a number of languages. Christian At 07:10 PM 7/31/00 -0400, you wrote: >There is a set of 4 books by Maxine Berntsen and Jai Nimbkar for Marathi >published by the Department of South Asian Regional Studies at the >University of Pennsylvania. They are a good tool to learn modern Marathi. >There is an older book Spoken Marathi by Franklin Southworth and Naresh >Kavadi, published by the University of Pennsylvania Press. The various >regional and tribal dialects of Marathi have been studied separately and a >useful series of such studies was published by the Deccan College in Pune. >If you send a question addressed to Professor Ghatage at the Bhandarkar >Institute in Pune, you may perhaps get an exact answer. Best, > Madhav Deshpande > >On Mon, 31 Jul 2000, Harry Spier wrote: > > > Dear list members, > > > > 1) Is there any good Marathi learning material in english? > > - A good reference grammar to modern spoken and written Marathi. > > - A good dictionary. > > - introductory colloquial "how to speak Marathi" material. > > - audio or video cassettes. > > > > 2) Can someone tell me if the language spoken by the tribal peoples in the > > Tansa valley (I think this is about 50 km. from Bombay) is different from > > standard Marathi? Would this information be available in Grierson's > > Linguistic Survey of India (and if so has the language and dialect > > distribution in Maharashtra changed substantially since the survey was > > done)? > > > > Many thanks, > > > > > > Harry Spier > > 371 Brickman Rd. > > Hurleyville, New York > > USA 12747 > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Wed Aug 2 02:22:49 2000 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 00 22:22:49 -0400 Subject: Circumcision in Indian literature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060517.23782.15066506755462959563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List-members: I am interested in finding references to male and female circumcision in Sanskrit literature in particular, but in literature in Indian languages generally, up to and including the early centuries of contact with Islam. With Sanskrit I would even be interested in references up to the modern period. I am ashamed to say that, not having read the Kama Sutra in many years, I don't even know if there are references in that most obvious source, but I think there must be, at least to male circumcision. Much thanks. From mudra at INCH.COM Wed Aug 2 14:07:31 2000 From: mudra at INCH.COM (Venantius J Pinto) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 00 09:07:31 -0500 Subject: salmon In-Reply-To: <3987B0D8.2C9A27E1@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227060528.23782.13556665295135698610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hello all, could anyone on this list help me with the konkani and marathi words for the fish salmon. thanking you in anticipation. venantius j pinto artist Venantius J Pinto & Cecilia Castelino 664 West 163rd Street, #57 New York, NY 10032-4527 Tel/Fax: 212.928.3955 mudra at inch.com From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Aug 2 05:25:44 2000 From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 00 10:55:44 +0530 Subject: Ali Sardar Jafri is no more Message-ID: <161227060520.23782.16911445847842099723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Doyen of Urdu poetry passed away yesterday. He was suffering from brain tumor. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Aug 2 16:20:23 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 00 12:20:23 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's PILTDOWN horse In-Reply-To: <20000731021614.14660.qmail@web6104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227060531.23782.1292915600510329087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Jogesh Panda (and others) for the acknowledgment of the unmasking of a fraud. But you are of course invited to check out the many idiosyncracies of the Jha/Rajaram book yourself. And find the same results... >But.. but, why are you so bitter and angry ? If there is any 'bitterness' or 'anger' on Steve Farmer's (or my) part, it is that we have spent many hours and days in tracing the trail of the fraud. It was difficult for us, with our excellent university (& private) libraries at hand (my Indus one, importantly with A. Parpola's books, just one foot away from this computer). But how difficult would it be for many members of this list, not to speak of those in India buying his book, to check out what S. Farmer has checked out? Rajaram actually speaks of *millions* that read his books! Many readers (including one former member of this list who elected never to be mentioned again), would not even suspect that something was wrong, given Rajaram's strong (and fashionable) statement, p. 162, n. 5: "" The 'horse seal' goes to show that the oft repeated claim of "No horse at Harappa" is entirely baseless. Horse bones have been found at all levels at Harappan sites. Also, as we have already seen, the word 'asva' is a commonly occuring word on the seals. The supposed 'horselessness' of the Harappans is a dogma that has been exploded by evidence. But like its cousin the Aryan invasion, it persists for reasons having little to do with evidence or scholarship." Rajaram, however, has fabricated the PILTDOWN MAN (or HORSE) of the INDUS. With G.Possehl, I do not *believe* that ANY decipherment, Dravidian/Sanskrit or other, proposed so far is proven. Back to square one. A proper sign list. More on left over Indus questions later on. Best, MW> ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Aug 2 13:33:01 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 00 14:33:01 +0100 Subject: SV: Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060522.23782.14254057173005524828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: [snip] >Rajaram is a different cup of tea. Having read a couple of his books, I >could easily show how he manipulates research data in a flourish of >rhetorical language to defame and vilify Western scholars while promoting >views and interpretations that are, to be polite, intellectually weak. If >his manipulation of the "horse" seal wouldn't have drummed him out of >Academia, his books certainly would. [snip] It is a good hope [ drummed out of Academia ] but unlikely to happen. History is used to argue both for and against India's nationhood; and that argument can even be quite violent, as you are aware if you follow the news. So, history is politicized, and that pollutes Academia. Fraud of a similar kind ( false and misleading conclusions from a statistical model) and far greater consequence has been perpetrated by the psychometrians ("The Bell Curve") and none of them has been drummed out of [US] academia to my knowledge. In fact, they occupy tenured positions in many major US universities. -arun gupta From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Aug 2 18:50:01 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 00 14:50:01 -0400 Subject: vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060543.23782.14998969126227212169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree with Isaacson's understanding of the verse. Yes, it is true that the context of the verse in the Hitopadeza makes it certain that the character of the Hitopadeza uses this verse in a deceitful way. That does not make the contents of the verse itself any more deceitful than the contents of so many other verses in the same work which are clearly citations from other older works. The story seems to show that a deceitful character may indeed say very nice things to lure an unsuspecting person. It is again the use of this same verse by modern political groups that is questionable, rather than the original contents. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Harunaga Isaacson wrote: > On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > > > Vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam (much quoted and employed in modern publications e.g. > > of the VHP): > > does it or does it not occur in any other ancient/classical Sanskrit (not to > > speak of Vedic) text except the Hitopadesa 1.3 -- where this phrase is used > > in a mean and deceitful way? > > Is anyone aware of its occurrence in Manusmrti or elsewhere? Any concrete > > references (or references to an electronic Manusmrti if it exists) will be > > appreciated. > > No doubt others with more time and more books to hand than I can provide > more exhaustive answers. I just happen to have been reading the > Subhaa.sitaratnako.sa, Vidyaakara's early anthology, recently. > > Subhaa.sitaratnako.sa (ed. Kosambi and Gokhale) 1241 (verse 29 of the > sadvrajyaa, and indeed as you will see their is no question of meanness > or deceit here): > > aya.m nija.h paro veti ga.nanaa laghucetasaam > udaaracaritaanaa.m tu vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam > > This verse is quoted in several Ala.mkaara"saastra works too. The only > precise reference I have at hand as I write is Bhoja's > "S.r"ngaaraprakaa"sa (new ed. by V. Raghavan, part 1. [can Michael Witzel > or anyone tell us when we can expect the rest? I for one am very eagerly > looking forward to it] Harvard 1998, Harvard Oriental Series 53)) where > you will find the verse quoted on p. 405. It is apparently sometimes > attributed to Udbha.ta, sometimes to Ke"sa.ta. > > The expression indeed does not occur in the Manusm.rti (An electronic text > of Manu input and proofread by M. Yano and Y. Ikari is publicly available, > and you can find it e.g. through following the link for Virtual Archive of > Indic e-texts on the INDOLOGY home-page). > > Best wishes, > > Harunaga Isaacson > > Oxford/Hamburg > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Aug 2 14:20:31 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 00 16:20:31 +0200 Subject: SV: SV: Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060525.23782.2649833355082407153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta [SMTP:suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET] skrev 2. august 2000 15:33: > It is a good hope [ drummed out of Academia ] but unlikely to happen. > History is used to argue both for and against India's nationhood; and that > argument can even be quite violent, as you are aware if you follow the news. > So, history is politicized, and that pollutes Academia. As far as I know, Rajaram is not in Academia to begin with, so there are good reasons why he hasn't been drummed out :-). BTW, I can't quite see that this has anything to do with India's nationhood. I for one would certainly not want to see India lose its nationhood, but I think there are better ways to define a nation and keep it together than to use the methods of Rajaram and his fellow travellers. This, however, is a debate that was closed on the list some time ago, and I shall therefore not try to revive it. > Fraud of a similar kind ( false and misleading conclusions from a > statistical model) and far greater consequence has been perpetrated by the > psychometrians ("The Bell Curve") and none of them has been drummed out of > [US] academia to my knowledge. In fact, they occupy tenured positions in > many major US universities. I agree with your assessment of "The Bell Curve", although the fraudulent methods are more sophisticated than Rajaram's. But in fairness, "The Bell Curve" has received the most dreadful critiques, and must be regarded as "drummed out" even if the authors haven't been fired from their positions. One of the quirks of tenure, I believe, is that you cannot - or don't easily - get fired. (That at least used to be the case with Norwegian professors at the time when they were "officials". The idea was to secure their integrity so that they wouldn't have to fear for their position if they spoke freely on a controversial issue. That status has been changed in recent years.) Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU Wed Aug 2 23:20:29 2000 From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 00 18:20:29 -0500 Subject: Similes & Metaphors In-Reply-To: <00a101bff1a8$77964600$7a30893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227060546.23782.15351251383813108766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists! The most relevant reference I've found on this is: Rhys Davids -- "Similes in the Nikaayas: A Classified Index." Journal of the Pali Text Society (1906-07), pp. 52-251 and (1908), pp. 180-188. A related work which might be useful is Heramba Nath Chatterjee's *Comparative Studies in Pali and Sanskrit Alankaaras* (Part One) Calcutta: Sanskrit Pustak Bhander, 1960. [This has a separate section on Upamaa.] I have perhaps 20 other references which are less closely related to this topic, and those interested could contact me directly for those. Sorry for the untimely response, but I'm on vacation! itlu, Tim Cahill On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Stephen Hodge wrote: > Many Indian philosophical texts have a liking for similes and > metaphors to illustrate the point in hand -- certainly Buddhist texts > I read have a great number of these. Some are well-known stock > similes but others are more unusual. I was wondering if anybody has > researched or compiled a list of such similes ? > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Wed Aug 2 16:33:56 2000 From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 00 18:33:56 +0200 Subject: Job advertisement Message-ID: <161227060533.23782.17848226968729350943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ob advertisement : Research assistant at the Department of Classical Indology of the University of Heidelberg (Please note, that for an application for the following position of research assistant a fluency in German is required.). Best wishes Axel Michaels ---------------------------------------------- STELLENAUSSCHREIBUNG In der Abteilung Klassische Indologie am Suedasien-Institut der Ruprecht-Karls-Universitaet Heidelberg ist ab voraussichtlich 1. Oktober 2000 die Stelle eines/r Wissenschaftlichen Mitarbeiters/in fuer die Dauer von zunaechst zwei Jahren zu besetzen. Bewerber/innen muessen ueber ein abgeschlossenes Hochschulstudium der Indologie verfuegen. Fundierte EDV-Kenntnisse sind ebenfalls Voraussetzung. Die Verguetung erfolgt nach BAT. Bei Vorliegen der entsprechenden Voraussetzungen (Promotion) ist die Einstellung als Hochschulassistent/in (Bes.-Gr. C 1) moeglich. Bewerbungen mit den ueblichen Unterlagen (Lebenslauf, Liste der Publikationen, Darstellung der Forschungsvorhaben) werden bis spaetestens 10. September 2000 an den Leiter der Abteilung Klassische Indologie des Suedasien-Instituts, Herrn Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, 69120 Heidelberg, erbeten. From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Wed Aug 2 17:06:52 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 00 19:06:52 +0200 Subject: Piltdown Man and Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060536.23782.5469088914751395587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The hoax of the Piltdown Man: Those who are desirous of some more details of this event in the history of archeology may enjoy: http://www.tiac.net/users/cri/piltdown.html Jan E.M. Houben, From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Wed Aug 2 17:07:11 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 00 19:07:11 +0200 Subject: vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam revisited Message-ID: <161227060538.23782.918393021320822786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam (much quoted and employed in modern publications e.g. of the VHP): does it or does it not occur in any other ancient/classical Sanskrit (not to speak of Vedic) text except the Hitopadesa 1.3 -- where this phrase is used in a mean and deceitful way? Is anyone aware of its occurrence in Manusmrti or elsewhere? Any concrete references (or references to an electronic Manusmrti if it exists) will be appreciated. Before asking this I checked the Indology Archive, as is sometimes useful to do. I found that references for Vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam were asked at 3 April this year (by Koenraad Elst), and someone answered (also 3 April 2000) that it occurred in Introduction to Sanskrit by Tom Egenes as a quotation from Manu Smrti 11.12.22. In J.L. Shastri's edition (Manusmrti with comm. of Kulluukala Bhatta) I did not find anything at 11.12, 11.22 or 12.22 (three-fold numeral reference 11.12.22 is not usual with regard to Manu). (Manu 11.12 contains the word ku.tumbaka, but the sloka is in defense of a sacrificer who takes forcibly what he needs for a sacrifice from the house -- ku.tumba -- of a Vaishya.) I searched in sloka-indices in editions of Manu but could not find anything similar to Vasudhaiva ... . Diving deeper in the Archive: there is a message (11 Nov. 1994) of B.A. Hatcher in which he announces the publication of his article on "The cosmos is one family (vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam): Problematic mantra of Hindu humanism" in Contributions to Indian Sociology 28/1 (1994):149-162. In this article the author asks whether the negative Hitopadesa context of its occurrence lingers on "like a tell-tale fragrance (vaasanaa)" (the implicit answer as I understand it: yes it does), and argues "that for the VHP this mantra expresses its own vision of manava dharma." "The VHP claims -- but does not demonstrate -- that this manava dharma is rooted in the cosmology of the sacred vedas. [Elsewhere in the article, p. 151 note 4, the author quotes K. Singh 1990, according to whom Vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam occurs in the Rgveda. It has also been quoted as "a Sanskrit saying of Upanishadas", this list, 18 Sept 1998.] Further specifics of the vedic worldview are not required." "If your strategy is a globalising one that seeks to identify your political/economic interests with those of Siks, Jains, and Buddhists -- whom the VHP would like to claim as fellow Hindus -- it is best to avoid the issue of concrete religious norms." Hatcher's article draws attention to regional differences to understand "ku.tumba", and further contains interesting references to a speech delivered by Sylvain Levi in Dacca, 1922, in which Levi takes Vasudhaiva kutumbakam as a testcase to examine, what he called, "Eastern Humanism", and which reveals already some of the problems in applying Vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam in a modern context (it also reveals, according to Hatcher, Levi's "benevolent paternalism-cum cultural arrogance"). Best wishes, Jan Houben From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Aug 3 23:27:16 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 00 16:27:16 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's bull In-Reply-To: <2000Aug3.221241@YV1041.spb.edu> Message-ID: <161227060553.23782.15106362329855577937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I also must thank Michael Witzel and Steve Farmer for their careful work in exposing the "problems" (to put it very politely) with Rajaram's alleged script decipherment and horse seal. Witzel is right about the need to make it clear, particularly to non-specialists, that these claims have no serious academic backing even though they are presented as "scientific" research (as a member of the list has pointed out). Books by Rajaram & Co. do have a wide audience even in the U.S., where there is a large South Asian community. If I am not mistaken, the on-line debate on indigenous aryanism originally started on RISA-L when Linda Hess asked for on-line comments after students at a South Asia class at Stanford brought up the subject. The whole phenomenon represented by Rajaram (and his "fellow travellers" as L. M. Fosse put it) is very interesting, and I would like to make a few "indological" observations. Much of the current attack on "Western" Indology seems to be part of a strategy that aims at defending Brahminical traditions and institutions against a perceived menacing threat. This threat, it would appear, is seen as coming from two main flanks: 1. Foreigners (Muslim and British-colonialist). Intellectually, however, this foreign "threat" comes mainly from the discipline of Indology, inasmuch as it does not align itself with some current nationalist ideas about indigenous aryanism and the definition of what is or is not "Hindu." 2. Indian Marxists. In this case, note the negative connotation that the term "secular" acquires in many statements. What I'd like to point out is the parallelism between this and the situation during the last centuries BCE, when upholders of the Brahminical dharma felt threatened by foreign invasions and by the development of local non- or anti-Vedic ideas (Buddhism, Jainism, AjIvikas, CArvAkas, etc.). This concern influenced the emergence of the idea of yugAnta, the end of the yuga, a time when the varNAzrama dharma was considered to be in danger and complaints were voiced against the mixture of classes (varNasaMkAra) and overall moral decay. The yugAnta explanation laid the blame squarely on mlecchas (foreigners) and local nAstikas (non-believers/heretics). Their appearance and influence signaled the arrival of the terrible end of the (Kali) yuga. The MahAbhArata (AraNyakaparvan) concentrates more on the foreigners, while some PurANas (such as the VAyu) attack the nAstikas. According to the texts, the situation will only be resolved with the arrival of Kalkin (a Brahmin), ViSNu's avatAra, who will destroy mlecchas and nAstikas, and will perform a Vedic horse sacrifice and preside over the restoration of dharma. The current situation is not so different: the main offenders are again considered to be the mlecchas (Western Indologists) and the nAstikas (Indian Marxists). Could this be the yugAnta? Best wishes, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Aug 4 00:35:52 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 00 17:35:52 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060556.23782.3378365460261842809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Extremely interesting suggestions (1) by Yaroslav Vassilkov on apparent further doctoring of Mackay 453 by N.S. Rajaram and (2) by Luis Gonzalez-Reimann on the deep rightwing political-historical background of "Rajaram's alleged script decipherment and horse seal." Anyone questioning Rajaram's rightwing credentials should check out some of his popular political and "historical" articles at: http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/articles.html The tone of these articles fits perfectly into Luis's thesis that: > Much of the current attack on "Western" Indology seems to be part of a > strategy that aims at defending Brahminical traditions and institutions > against a perceived menacing threat. This is not innocent stuff. Read one or more of those articles. The "threat," as we see from Rajaram's articles, comes from Christianity and the Pope, Pakistan, Marxists, Western Indologists (of course), and "a barbarism called Talibanism...[whose] goal is to establish a world empire ruled by Islam." I may have missed an enemy or two. Meanwhile, in his more important historical writings (see above link), we find Rajaram working hard (when not fantasizing about IVC decipherments) on his goal of demonstrating the historicity of Krishna. In one three-part paper published on the above link, Rajaram reassures us that "We have overwhelming evidence showing that Krishna was a historical figure who must have lived within a century on either side of...the 3200-3000 BC period" -- which is where Rajaram places (NB: at the *end* of the Vedic period) the Mahabharata War. This afternoon, further evidence on Rajaram's "horse seal" hoax arose when we found unequivocal documentary evidence from the original field reports that Mackay 453 (poor old photo) and Parpola 772 (superb recent photo) are the *same* seal/seal impression, photographed many decades apart. This allows some important simplifications of the Rajaram hoax story. An updated version of the sorry mess, also with new evidence on the same animal/different inscription issue, will be posted on the Web this weekend. Meanwhile, we wait breathless for Rajaram's promised public announcement (made to me, Witzel, S. Talagari, Elst, others) on his doctored seal. Steve Farmer From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 3 22:34:14 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 00 18:34:14 -0400 Subject: Similes & Metaphors Message-ID: <161227060551.23782.8691746640608402282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry I have not previously mentioned this, but anyway, it relies entirely on Chinese Buddhist sources--that is, in Chinese, although the texts themselves are Indian (translations from Indic texts): Mori Shohji . 1988. Bukkyoh Hiyu Reiwa Jiten (Tokyo: Tohkyohdoh). oh = long o By the way, I ama total idiot about this, but my first attempt to send this came back because "it contains an attachment of type 'TEXT/ENRICHED'." How can I avoid this? (I dont really care what it means if I just know how not to do it) Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Thu Aug 3 19:12:41 2000 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 00 22:12:41 +0300 Subject: Rajaram's PILTDOWN horse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060548.23782.10033861558546810379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer in his recent postings and on his web-page convincingly proved that Mr.Rajaram by way of computer manipulations with Mackay's No.453 had produced artificial, falsified image in order to support his "theory". But there is a small detail in the picture of the "Horse Seal" ("Mackay 453") in Rajaram's book which seems to have escaped the attention of the Indologists as yet. However, this small detail leaves us no doubt that Rajaram did not limit himself with adjusting the contrast on Mackay 453. He went much farther than that. In the Figure 7.1a ("The Horse Seal") of Rajaram's book one can see in the right lower corner, just in front of the "forelegs" of the animal the siluette of a well-known IVC artefact or symbol. It is the so called "feeding trough". On many seals we can see it standing on the ground *before* an animal, *at its feet*. This particular form of the "feeding trough" resembles in its siluette an old-fashioned telephone set with conical base and the reciever lying across its top. But this specific form appears in front of some animals exclusively, as it seems to me, or almost exclusively *on the copper tablets*, not on the seals. At least I get such an impression from the only sourcebook available to me at the moment: J.P.Joshi and A.Parpola. Corpus if Indus Seals and Inscriptions. 1. Collections in India. Helsinki, 1987 (it would be fine if somebody could check this supposed regularity on the material of other collections). It is quite possible that this particular "telephone" shape of the trough was predetermined by the material (copper) and the technique of incision. In the above mentioned book one can see such "telephone-shaped" troughs standing in front of a goat, a buffalo, a zebu, an elephant, in front of fantastic "composite animals" and once or twice - in front of an animal looking like a unicorn bull (probably the unique case[s], because the unicorns as a rule stand in front of the so-called "standard"). In all these cases the material is copper (Joshi-Parpola, pp.130-133: M-519B, 520B, 525B, 527B, 528B, 530B; p.136, M-543B, 544B; pp. 138-139: M-551B, 552B, etc.). So, as we see, Mr.Rajaram did not stop at playing with shades and contrasts. He also put in the lower right corner of the picture the "telephone-shaped" trough which he had taken most probably from some copper tablet, or may be from another seal, it makes not much difference. Unfortunately, having no access to the complete corpus of Indus seals and other images I am not able to say from what picture *exactly* did Mr.Rajaram took the image of a feeding trough in this specific form. But it is evident that he worked in the same way as the author of the famous anthropological fake did: one bone from this species, another bone from this - and here you are, an unknown creature, the Piltdown man is discovered! Mr. Rajaram took the broken seal with a part of a unicorn bull on it, by way of adjusting contrasts made the readers see in the line of fracture the siluette of the animal's forelegs, and then put in the empty lower right corner a "telephone-shaped trough" from another seal or tablet with the obvious aim to strengthen the illusion - surely, the "feeding trough" always stands in front of an animal's forelegs! I think, we must admit, that he constracted his "Piltdown" (or "Vedic Harappan") horse with great inventiveness. Best regards to all, Yaroslav Vassilkov - Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Institute of Oriental Studies Thu, 03 Aug 100 18:54 +0300 MSK From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Fri Aug 4 02:16:10 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 00 22:16:10 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060558.23782.9209904201946125236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/3/00 8:33:18 PM, saf at SAFARMER.COM writes: >The "threat," as we see from Rajaram's articles, comes from >Christianity and the Pope, Pakistan, Marxists, Western >Indologists (of course), and "a barbarism called >Talibanism...[whose] goal is to establish a world empire ruled by Islam." (And also in reference to Luis Gonzalez-Reimann's very interesting post.) Another perspective would be to see Rajaram as of a piece with the resurgence of Christian, Jewish, and Islamic fundamentalism around the world in reaction to modernity/science/globalization. The question is, is this a temporary phenomenon, the proverbial last gasp? Or will rationality soon be gasping? -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Aug 4 05:57:19 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 00 22:57:19 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's bull In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060566.23782.18402176106709546306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reply to some of Vidyasankar's comments: LGR: >>has pointed out). Books by Rajaram & Co. do have a wide audience even in >>the U.S., where there is a large South Asian community. VS: >Most expatriate South Asians are very technologically savvy. Yes, of course. I am fully aware of that. Some weeks ago I attended a talk by S. Kak at the UC, Berkeley campus and one of the most interesting things was to hear South Asian students from the sciences (biology, computing, engineering) questioning many of his assumptions after his exposition of the so-called "new paradigm." But it is also true that many of them are exposed to all sorts of ideas from relatives (who read Rajaram et al), and in some cases they don't have access to scholarly information on the subject unless they enroll in a South Asia course. This is, in large part, due to the grandiose claims and wide diffusion of many of these ideas which seem to have taken some Indologists by surprise. VS: >It hardly helps, for example, to keep snubbing people with >scientific backgrounds, as has often happened. A scientific background can definitely be very good, but for some areas it needs to be combined with some training in the humanities. A positive example of this kind of combination is Anthony Aveni (one of the principal voices for the discipline of Archaeoastronomy) who has a solid background in both astronomy and anthropology. There have been too many western scientists (physicists and the like) who have naively accepted many spectacular claims about the Vedas without any research. Witness many of the followers of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. This might help you understand where these comments about hard scientists and Indology are coming from. LGR: >>Much of the current attack on "Western" Indology seems to be part of a >>strategy that aims at defending Brahminical traditions and institutions >... >>this foreign "threat" comes mainly from the discipline of Indology, >>inasmuch as it does not align itself with some current nationalist ideas >>about indigenous aryanism and the definition of what is or is >not "Hindu." VS: >I beg to differ. The Hindutva-vAdi definition of what is "Hindu" >is neither very Brahminical nor traditional. Nor is the real goal >one of defending Brahminical traditions or institutions. Well, it is certainly dressed in the garb of defending "tradition," even if it is not expressly said to be brahminical. The problem, as usual, is: what is tradition? >?From Vivekananda to Aurobindo you hear of the need to restore "true brahminhood." It is not easy to de-brahmanize claims that the Vedas (or the SmRtis and the PurANas) are supra-human texts. But although I agree that it is not a purely brahminical phenomenon, it is clear that some perceive indological ideas as an attack on brahmins. (See, for instance, the quotes in Palaniappan's message to this list on Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:27:22 EDT). VS: What is >being attempted is a redefinition of tradition, but then, list >members should be the first to realize that the new gods can only >win by killing the old titans. Or by marrying them, or by stating that they follow orders from, or are simply manifestations of the new ones. Killing them has generally not been the procedure in Indian traditions. VS: >were in power. For example, there was a judge who ruled that the >Vedas are not the sole property of the Hindus, so that the sAvitrI >mantra could be printed on government issued greeting cards. What >would a professional Indologist do with a statement that the Vedas >are not just Hindu, but universal, scripture? Why the question? Should an Indologist do something with the statement? It is interesting, of course, and it indicates in which direction ideas are moving today, but the origins of the SAvitR mantra are still Vedic (not Hindu). VS: >judgements and case law? The root problem is not one of Hindutva >vs. secularism. It is the crisis of identity that has gripped India >for a long time that is the real issue. Yes, I agree, an identity crisis is at the root of the problem, but those going through the crisis will usually be the more traditional conservative ones. Most of the modern day movements that are referred to as fundamentalist are reactions to perceived or real threats to "traditional" ideas and values. VS: >Note that the dominant voice that expresses concerns about >varNasaMkara in the epic is that of a kshatriya - Arjuna. I was referring to the MArkaNDeya episode in the Vanaparvan (MBh 3.186, 188; Cr.Ed.). It is not Arjuna but the sage MArkaNDeya that describes yugAnta. This section has little to do with the rest of the narrative. VS: >So long as one is talking of varNAzrama-dharma, Kalki's role is >very much that of a kshatriya, not that of a brAhmaNa. Yes, when I first prepared my previous message I wrote "a Brahmin who behaves like a kSatriya" but then I took the second part out in order to simplify the sentence. It is, of course, noteworthy that Buddha, MahAvIra, RAma and KRSNa were all kSatriyas, whereas Kalkin is a brahmin. VS: >for a brAhmaNa. Indeed, the kshatriya-dharma is predominant in the >avatAras of vishNu - rAma, kRshNa, balarAma. Well, ParazurAma's role was to make it clear that kSatriyas must respect brahmins. As for the MahAbhArata and the RAmAyaNa, although kSatriya dharma is fundamental to both, so is the need to respect brahmins, especially in the Mbh. VS: >seem like a quibble with respect to what is "Brahminical", but if >Indologists keep silent about the kshatriya side of the equation, >they risk both misunderstanding India and being misunderstood by Indians, >whether in India or elsewhere. The relationship between kSatriyas and brahmins as reflected in the literature (Vedas, Epics, etc.) is a very important indological topic. Please bear in mind that my post was not meant as a detailed analysis, I merely wanted to draw attention to what I consider to be an interesting parallelism. Best regards, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Aug 4 05:24:47 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 01:24:47 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's PILTDOWN horse / horse bones In-Reply-To: <2000Aug3.221241@YV1041.spb.edu> Message-ID: <161227060563.23782.765980579594818599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Vassilkov certainly is right in pointing out that the 'feeding trough' in front of Rajaram's "Horse" is a figment of his imagination, or rather his photoshop manipulation abilities. > In the Figure 7.1a ("The Horse Seal") ... "feeding trough". >... on the ground *before* an animal, *at its feet*. ... resembles >in its siluette >an old-fashioned telephone set with conical base and the reciever lying >across its >top. OF COURSE, nothing of this sort in the same seal = Mackay 453 (1937) and = Parpola 772 (1991), see S. Farmer: http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/rajarambull.html and cf. my enlarged picture from Parpola (scroll down:) http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/Rajaram's-Bull.html The telephone-like trough is part of the clearly BROKEN OFF SECTION of the seal! >But this specific form appears in front of some animals exclusively,... >almost exclusively *on the copper tablets*, not on the seals. Same in the copper plates in Pakistani collections, see: SGM Shah and A. Parpola, Vol. 2, Coll. from Pakistan: p. 204-216 and in a few more. (Except, for the male hare on these copper plates that stands in front of a bunch of grass....!) >It is quite possible that this particular "telephone" shape of the >trough was predetermined by the material (copper) and the technique of >incision. Indeed, on seals we usually have the larger "stand"in front of animals. Of course, with some exceptions, for example, the regular bull in front of a feeding trough in Vol.2, p. 110-114 (M 1080-1097) or in vol. 1, p. 58-70 on and off: bull and even a tiger (M 234-289). Therefore, we must agree with Prof. Vassilkov: > ..Rajaram did not stop at playing with shades and contrasts. He >also put in the lower right corner of the picture the "telephone-shaped" >trough.... AND > an unknown creature, the Piltdown man is discovered! ... Add to all of this his "ingenuity" in finding inscriptions that "mention" horses.... No horses attested in the Indus civ., see: ---------------- Patricia Meredith Greer asked: >Can we as decisively discredit Rajaram's claim that horse >bones are present at every strata of the IVC? NONE at all see: Meadow, R. H. and Patel, A. A Comment on "Horse Remains from Surkodata" by S?ndor Bokonyi. South Asian Studies 13, 1997, 308-315 (ref. to Bokonyi's paper in the same volume). cf. also: Meadow 1998, The Review of Archaeology, The Transition to Agriculture in the Old World, 19, 1998, (Special Issue ed. by Ofer Bar-Yosef), 12-21. B?k?nyi thought that he could find horse bones in at least that *one* Indus site, but see above. And note that "horse bones" identified so far belong either to the onager = half-ass = khor = hemione or to horses from UNSTRATIFIED or badly reported sites and levels. The first well-attested horse bones are from the Kachi plains in E. Baluchistan (already in the Indus plains) only at 1700 BCE... which explains Rajaram's eagerness to find an Indus horse, hook by crook! Cheers, MW ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 4 02:44:53 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 02:44:53 +0000 Subject: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060561.23782.9266104302376318480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, As a generally silent spectator in this debate, and as one who is involved in both the fields of science/technology and Indology, here are a few comments - >has pointed out). Books by Rajaram & Co. do have a wide audience even in >the U.S., where there is a large South Asian community. If I am not Most expatriate South Asians are very technologically savvy. Indologists in the West who want to address Rajaram and others should factor this in, and in a positive way, in their strategy. It hardly helps, for example, to keep snubbing people with scientific backgrounds, as has often happened. This is a sure recipe for driving someone away. In a world where image is everything and substance counts for little, and increasingly so, a more sophisticated attitude will help. The demands on your patience may seem to be too trying, but some investment in it may pay off, and something constructive can come out of it. >Much of the current attack on "Western" Indology seems to be part of a >strategy that aims at defending Brahminical traditions and institutions ... >this foreign "threat" comes mainly from the discipline of Indology, >inasmuch as it does not align itself with some current nationalist ideas >about indigenous aryanism and the definition of what is or is >not "Hindu." I beg to differ. The Hindutva-vAdi definition of what is "Hindu" is neither very Brahminical nor traditional. Nor is the real goal one of defending Brahminical traditions or institutions. What is being attempted is a redefinition of tradition, but then, list members should be the first to realize that the new gods can only win by killing the old titans. And if you have been following what has been happening in India, in the legislatures, in the courts, in the media, in general public life, this has been getting insitutionalized, even when the "Marxists" and the "secularists" were in power. For example, there was a judge who ruled that the Vedas are not the sole property of the Hindus, so that the sAvitrI mantra could be printed on government issued greeting cards. What would a professional Indologist do with a statement that the Vedas are not just Hindu, but universal, scripture? What should the average Indian think of such a statement, when it is entered into judgements and case law? The root problem is not one of Hindutva vs. secularism. It is the crisis of identity that has gripped India for a long time that is the real issue. ... >and complaints were voiced against the mixture of classes (varNasaMkAra) >and overall moral decay. Note that the dominant voice that expresses concerns about varNasaMkara in the epic is that of a kshatriya - Arjuna. The brAhmaNas in the epic are merrily going about, creating sons by any means possible - from baskets, from heavenly nymphs and from fisherwomen, quite unbothered by all the intermixing. .... >some PurANas (such as the VAyu) attack the nAstikas. According to the >texts, the situation will only be resolved with the arrival of Kalkin (a >Brahmin), ViSNu's avatAra, who will destroy mlecchas and nAstikas, and will >perform a Vedic horse sacrifice and preside over the restoration of dharma. > So long as one is talking of varNAzrama-dharma, Kalki's role is very much that of a kshatriya, not that of a brAhmaNa. He charges on a white steed, with a sword in his hand. Not very traditional for a brAhmaNa. Indeed, the kshatriya-dharma is predominant in the avatAras of vishNu - rAma, kRshNa, balarAma. Even the "alien" incorporation (buddha) was born a kshatriya, and even the brAhmaNa- born rAma-with-the-axe was more a warrior than a priest. This may seem like a quibble with respect to what is "Brahminical", but if Indologists keep silent about the kshatriya side of the equation, they risk both misunderstanding India and being misunderstood by Indians, whether in India or elsewhere. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 4 12:13:36 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 08:13:36 -0400 Subject: Early Indian attitudes to Western Indology Message-ID: <161227060577.23782.3981226292577188715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, In the last few centuries what were the Indian attitudes to passing on to the western colonizers the traditional knowledge of: 1)The Sanskrit language and literature in general. 2)The Vedas. When western editions of the Vedas were being prepared in the last century was this done only from manuscripts or were the Brahmin priests willing to recite them to foreigners. 3)Would it have been controversial for a Brahmin priest or traditional pandit to cooperate with a western indologist. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 4 16:27:35 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 11:27:35 -0500 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060591.23782.4786658983187592843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars, You writing is most humorous. You are in effect stating that Western Indologists are the only people who can scientifically study India ! It is funny how Western Indologists get all upset when they are told that their thinking is the same as that of the old colonial and missionary types. But calling any Indian who questions the AIT/AMT as being politically motivated is scholarship eh ? I am not sure, if you have even understood the kinds of objections that have been raised against the AIT/AMT, that you are so willing to dismiss it. Needless to say, Just like the 19th century indologists you are are ready to call any Indian objections as being rooted in faith or religion. Any Indian who accepts your theories is scientific, and he who doesnt is not scientific ! This kind of attitude is standard Orientalism. Is it possible at all that a lesser person like me could also be scientific ? Let me repost a quote by Edward Said, please try to understand what it means. Said's words apply to India as well. Regards, Subrahmanya =========================================================== Quote by Said from http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/Bahri/Orientalism.html "One would find this kind of procedure less objectionable as political propaganda--which is what it is, of course--were it not accompanied by sermons on the objectivity, the fairness, the impartiality of a real historian, the implication always being that Muslims and Arabs cannot be objective but that Orientalists. . .writing about Muslims are, by definition, by training, by the mere fact of their Westernness. This is the culmination of Orientalism as a dogma that not only degrades its subject matter but also blinds its practitioners." ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri Aug 4 09:48:34 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 11:48:34 +0200 Subject: Rajaram's bull: background considerations Message-ID: <161227060569.23782.9296866373010836508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the aftermath of the "horse seal" exposure, a brief reaction on the excellent comments of Luis Gonzalez-Reimann and Vidyasankar Sundaresan on underlying sociological conditions. I would like to support Vidyasankar's warning against underestimating the gigantic redefinitions of the tradition that are taking place in smaller and larger, Indian and worldwide, movements of "Hindu humanism" or "neo-Hinduism" with claims that now the real or an older or a more properly understood tradition is being followed. A little reading of RSS publications (and of related organizations) shows the truth of Vidyasankar's statement that "The Hindutva-vAdi definition of what is "Hindu" is neither very Brahminical nor traditional" (even when the "tradition" is constantly cited and referred to). One example (I cite from an article by C.J.G. van der Burg, in Ideology and Status of Sanskrit, Leiden 1996: 380) : "the spread of Sanskrit knowledge has been "democratized" [JH: at least within the Hindu nation] instead of being reserved for a religious elite, as in the past." It is interesting to note that gigantic redefinitions seem to have taken place in the crucial transition period for Sanskritic culture, around the beginning of the first millennium when (citing S. Pollock in Ideology and Status of Sanskrit, p. 204) "the brahmanical Satavahanas insistently employed Prakrit for their public records, while their adversaries, the out-sider Sakas, had begun to use Sanskrit." (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann justly draws our attention to the importance of the centuries which preceded, but emphasized only tradtionalist reactions, not the redefinatory discontinuities.) The discontinuities of thorough redefinitions and recreations of the tradition seem to be a non-recognized part of the "life" of that tradition. And then Brian Aker's question: "is this a temporary phenomenon, the proverbial last gasp? Or will rationality soon be gasping?" Both according to philosophers of science and according to Bhartrhari (it was Ashok Aklujkar's creative idea to compare the two; reformulation is mine) any "knowledge tradition" (small or great) requires some rationality (tarka), some usually unquestioned paradigms (aagama), some directly perceptible (and hence usually unquestioned) reality (pratyakSa) (whether or not computer enhanced). Let's hope the mix of these will remain healthy and in the long run self-correcting. Best whishes to "all who work for peace by peaceful means" (I cite from Ingalls), Jan Houben From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Aug 4 10:15:08 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 12:15:08 +0200 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060571.23782.2376951012749643795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann [SMTP:reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU] skrev 4. august 2000 01:27: > 1. Foreigners (Muslim and British-colonialist). Intellectually, however, > this foreign "threat" comes mainly from the discipline of Indology, > inasmuch as it does not align itself with some current nationalist ideas > about indigenous aryanism and the definition of what is or is not "Hindu." I think, in all fairness, that we have to throw a glance at Islam (and the history of Christianity) here. The phenomena that we find in Hinduism these days have clear parallels in Islam (both in South Asia and in the Middle East). In fact, the quarrel with Western knowledge is as old there as in India, although the conservative Muslims seem more obsessed with natural science than the Hindus, who merely try to prove that it has its roots in ancient Hindu scripture, whereas their conservative Islamic counterparts simply want to banish Western science altogether. Conservative or "nativist" forces in Islam (such as the Jamaat-i-Islami in Pakistan) have made aggressive - and mostly successful attempts - to Islamicize science teaching in Pakistani schools. It goes without saying that they also rewrite history. Those of you who take an interest in this might want to read the highly enlightening (and pretty scary) book by Pervez Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani particle physicist. Look for "Islam and Science. Religious Orthodoxy and the Battle for Rationality", Zed Books, London 1991, on Amazon.com. > 2. Indian Marxists. In this case, note the negative connotation that the > term "secular" acquires in many statements. It should also be noted that the Hindutva crowd uses the term "Marxist" manipulatively, so that it is made synonymous with secular. Obviously, calling a self-professed Marxist a Marxist is fair, but the term is extended to all sorts of people who simply use modern academic approaches. Otherwise, it seems obvious that both traditional Hindus and Muslims are fighting to protect the legitimacy of their religion and culture as it has been traditionally handed down. In this respect, they are not much different from the Christian clergy a few hundred years back who, as Hoodbhoy points out, fought against anything scientific from Galileo to lightening rods. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From haridasc at YAHOO.COM Fri Aug 4 19:19:52 2000 From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 12:19:52 -0700 Subject: the creation of fakes & theories of translation Message-ID: <161227060599.23782.11366588324500979575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hope that Rajaram admits his mistake as well, and I hope furthermore that Rajaram fully comes forth and admits the mechanical, as well as idealogical, details behind his 'mistake' in that fudged-evidence is a fascinating topic for me. > On the other hand - > What happens when a person indulges in > mistranslations > of passages in order to prove ones point or theory ? > Is it any less objectionable ? Interesting. What do you mean by "mistranslations?" Could you please be concrete and provide a citation which reflects your inquiry? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Aug 4 20:06:18 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 13:06:18 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's PILTDOWN horse Message-ID: <161227060604.23782.9640766341229785465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Claude Seltzer writes: > After all, what difference does > it make whether the seal is a horse or a bull??? Enormous difference, if you are using your doctored evidence to try to link Harappan and Vedic cultures. Rajaram/Jha, you should recall, have claimed that they have made one of the biggest historical discoveries of the past hundred years. The fraudulent 'horse seal' is just one piece of their 'evidence.' The 'avaricious horse thieves' decipherment of the giant Dholavir signboard is another. And behind their claims, of course, is a deep nationalist political agenda. I strongly advise you to read Rajaram's articles at: http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/articles.html Those articles (like his article on the history of Christianity!) might seem amusing to professional historian. But his ideas are taken seriously by people both in the US and India. This isn't innocent stuff. saf From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 4 18:27:52 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 13:27:52 -0500 Subject: Rajaram's PILTDOWN horse Message-ID: <161227060596.23782.10177199310563873008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hope that Dr.Rajaram admits his mistake. Because it was a visual image and the claim was very big, the falsity was (comparitively) easy to expose. On the other hand - What happens when a person indulges in mistranslations of passages in order to prove ones point or theory ? Is it any less objectionable ? Regards, Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri Aug 4 12:33:47 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 14:33:47 +0200 Subject: vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam revisited Message-ID: <161227060580.23782.7459343369040080454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Inspired by the helpful and stimulating reactions of Harunaga Isaacson and Madhav Deshpande I briefly checked some other occurrences of the verse aya.m nija.h paro veti containing the presently much-cited phrase vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam. As I see it now (comments of anyone more familiar with the relevant literatures are invited): 1. No ancient occurrence in a straightforward dharmic source (e.g. manusm.rti) or Vedic source can be found for the phrase, in spite of recent claims attached to it through wrong references (I assume out of carelessness plus wishful thinking plus trusting unreliable sources, though the help of some little "pious fraud" here and there cannot be excluded ... ). 2. Thomas Egenes' oblique reference to Manusmrti 11.12 is -- I assume unintentionally -- ironical. Manu allows here the brahmin to take from the vaizya's house what he wants to use for his sacrifice >>> parallel to the cynical application of "the world is my family" phrase in the Hitopadeza by the jackal who had his eyes on the deer's flesh. 3. Even as a relatively early anthology the Subhaa.sitaratnako.sa of Vidyaakara has been attributed to ca. 1100 by Ingalls. As is well known, in the course of time Subhaa.sitas easily enter and leave anthologies; there are more than 800 candidates for the "three centuries" of Bhartrhari (among them, again, our verse aya.m nija.h ... vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam; Levi in 1922 also referred to Bhartrhari in connection with this vers; it is no. 376 in D.D. Kosambi's 1948 critical edition). We enter here a very tricky area, but the Hitopadeza occurrence -- though the Hit. is relatively late in the Brhatkathaa-Pancatantra-tradition -- could just as well be earlier than the Subhaa.sitaratnako.sa occurrence. In the translation volume of the Subhaa.sitaratnako.sa Ingalls writes "Pancatantra, Hitopadeza, etc." next to the verse in question (no. 1241), apparently suggesting that these were (among) the earlier sources from which the verse (could have been/) was taken. Also Ludwik Sternbach in his momumental Mahaa-Subhaa.sitasa.mgraha, mentions these under the "primary sources" of the verse. The occurrence in the Pancatantra is according to my taste not perfectly suiting its context (it disappears in various critical versions) in the story of the three learned and one insightful brahmins. The verse has been attributed to different authors, as Harunaga Isaacson pointed out (for instance one Bha.t.todbha.ta, court poet of Kashmiran king Yayaarii.da, one Keza.ta, one Sabhaataranga, one Udaatta). 4. There is indeed an alternative occurrence of the verse where it appears in a solidly (not just anthologically or citationally) positive context: "There was no king in the round world like Vikramaarka. In his heart never arose the question "is this man a stranger, or does he belong to my side" (tasya cetasy aya.m paro 'ya.m madiiya iti vikalpo naasti). On the contrary, he protected the whole universe. And it is said: aya.m nija.h ... vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam. ... " I am quoting, as you can guess, from "Vikrama's adventures" (ed. and transl. by F. Edgerton, Harvard Oriental Series 1926). This occurrence, together with that in various anthologies, may very well explain the popularity of the verse in a positive, non-cynical sense, up to the early decades of "Hindu humanism" (where Levi picked it up), and next up to the present. For those who want to attach authority and ancientness to this verse (for those for whom ancientness = authority) this is so far the best I could do. The text in it different recensions, unfortunately, does not seem to be significantly older than e.g. the Hitopadeza. (It must be later than Bhoja's reign (1010-1053) who is a second hero in the stories, after the legendary king Vikrama whose adventures are told by the 32 statuettes supporting his throne). 5. Much of what Brian A. Hatcher said in his 1994 article in Contributions to Indian Sociology (28.1, p. 149-162) on the "problematic mantra of Hindu humanism" is still applicable, though the author would have done well to check other occurrences of the verse in advance. Best wishes, Jan Houben From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Fri Aug 4 19:48:45 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 14:48:45 -0500 Subject: Rajaram's PILTDOWN horse Message-ID: <161227060602.23782.7151010476893997985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: Subrahmanya S. Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Rajaram's PILTDOWN horse > On the other hand - > What happens when a person indulges in mistranslations > of passages in order to prove ones point or theory ? > Is it any less objectionable ? > I would not venture to say whether it is because of arrogance or "laziness" or just plain carelessness, but it is clear that it is a COMMON experience for us to find a highly respected author making WRONG assumptions in the process of "translating" a text, and as a result, makes many mistakes in that "translation." Even to the point of making the so called translation into more of a commentary than a true translation. I would agree with Subrahmanya that THIS is every bit as bad, perhaps even WORSE than this issue of horses and bulls. After all, what difference does it make whether the seal is a horse or a bull??? Does that change the philosophy/translation of, say, a major Upanishad??? I would think a wrong translation of, say, an Upanishad, would be MUCH more of an important issue for Indology than the identity of a seal. I propose three reasons why no one complains about this. 1) we do not want to offend our friends who are fellow teachers. 2) "we" as teachers are too lazy or too busy to actually look carefully at the books we use for teaching. 3) At least some of the people who are so loud in their complaints about others mouthing off "out of their profession" so to speak, are the ones that are doing exactly that!! Perhaps these people that are so eager to yell critical names at others are not even familiar with the "sloppiness" of some western scholars that are Indologists and in the profession of teaching this material to others. It is obvious that at least some "Indoologsts" could benefit immensely by talking with native traditionalists before publishing some of their incorrect translations. It is true that a person outside of a tradition can sometimes be more objective, but it is also true that a person outside of the tradition that uses a text can totally corrupt the translation by missing the point of the text. After all, these texts WERE written/created for the purpose of being used within a tradition, not for the sake of later "translation" that ignores the original context. Perhaps we should all calm down a bit and try to treat others with the respect that we would like to enjoy. sincerely, Claude Setzer From subhamoyd at GO4ICORP.COM Fri Aug 4 15:29:26 2000 From: subhamoyd at GO4ICORP.COM (Subhamoy Das) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 16:29:26 +0100 Subject: Krishna and Jesus, who came first? Message-ID: <161227060588.23782.2378186917469332056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear wise ones, If you who came first Krishna or Jesus, please participate in a buzzing discussion on the topic at this address http://forums.about.com/ab-hinduism/messages?msg=22.1? Does anyone know when the first literature about Krishna was written, i.e. was it before or after the birth of Jesus? One participant replies: "Nirad Chaudhuri in his book on Hinduism points out that 'the Gita is written in good classical Sanskrit, and epigraphic evidence clearly shows that the Gita could not have been written before the second century A.D.' 'The earliest epigraphic evidence on languages employed in India comes from the inscriptions of Asoka inscribed in third century B.C. Asoka took care that his messages were intelligible to all and he used a particular kind of Prakrit. He even translated his messages to Greek and Aramaic. But, there are no inscriptions in Sanskrit. The first evidence of Sanskrit is seen around A.D.150 and from the fifth century A.D. classical Sanskrit is seen to be the dominant language in the inscriptions.' The doctrines of God coming into the world in the form of a man is the doctrines of Christ and these have influenced the writer of the Bhagavad Gita. Nirad Chaudhuri points out that 'the Hindu religious texts with the exception of the Vedas and their ancillary treatises, are all in classical Sanskrit. He says that in their present form none would be earlier than the fourth century A.D'. The Vedas seem to be written in what he calls archaic Sanskrit." ~ PLEASE PARTICIPATE IN THIS DISCUSSION AT http://forums.about.com/ab-hinduism/messages?msg=22.1 ~ You may login as guest or may become a member of this forum at http://forums.about.com/ab-hinduism/ THANK YOU Subhamoy Das http://hinduism.about.com From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Fri Aug 4 11:31:36 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 17:01:36 +0530 Subject: : background considerations Message-ID: <161227060575.23782.13754515223422276177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Significantly,in the post Plassey Bengal,the Brahmins among the new middle class(like Ram Mohun Roy ) were more radical than the Kayasthas (Radhakanta Deb). Rajesh Kochhar ." > >It is interesting to note that gigantic redefinitions seem to have taken >place in the crucial transition period for Sanskritic culture, around the >beginning of the first millennium when (citing S. Pollock in Ideology and >Status of Sanskrit, p. 204) "the brahmanical Satavahanas insistently >employed Prakrit for their public records, while their adversaries, the >out-sider Sakas, had begun to use Sanskrit." (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann justly >draws our attention to the importance of the centuries which preceded, but >emphasized only tradtionalist reactions, not the redefinatory >discontinuities.) > From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Fri Aug 4 17:35:53 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 18:35:53 +0100 Subject: Krishna and Jesus, who came first? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060593.23782.9612686581396444162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subhamoy Das writes: >Does anyone know when the first literature about Krishna was written, i.e. >was it before or after the birth of Jesus? Most scholars would place the GItA BCE. (I don't think Nirad C Chaudhuri carries a lot of weight as a Sanskritist.) But the earliest reference to "KRSNa son of DevakI" is considerably earlier--ChAndogya UpaniSad III.17.6. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Aug 4 14:00:51 2000 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Professor D N Jha) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 19:30:51 +0530 Subject: Pancagavya Message-ID: <161227060585.23782.15819001724335075242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, Is it possible to trace the earliest dharmasastric mention of pancagavya? If the five products of the cow can be puricants, why not those of the buffalo? As far as I know (I may be wrong, though!) that taxonomically the meat of the cow cannot be separated from that of the buffalo. D.N.Jha From pfreund at MUM.EDU Sat Aug 5 01:26:19 2000 From: pfreund at MUM.EDU (Peter Freund) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 20:26:19 -0500 Subject: vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam revisited Message-ID: <161227060614.23782.5671788654233462413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Jan E.M. Houben" wrote: > 1. No ancient occurrence in a straightforward dharmic source (e.g. > manusm.rti) or Vedic source can be found for the phrase, in spite of recent > claims attached to it through wrong references (I assume out of carelessness > plus wishful thinking plus trusting unreliable sources, though the help of > some little "pious fraud" here and there cannot be excluded ... ). > Thomas Egenes replies that the reference to Manusmirti was corrected in later editions of his book: The expression vasudhaiva kuTumbakam is now referenced as Mahopanishad 6:71. This can be found on page 452 of the Upanishatsamgraha. (Motilal Banarsidass, 1970) Is this a sufficiently "ancient" Vedic source for the phrase? Sincerely, Peter Freund From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 4 21:34:41 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 21:34:41 +0000 Subject: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060606.23782.11464728165402685680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >But it is also true that many of them are exposed to all sorts of ideas >from relatives (who read Rajaram et al), and in some cases they don't have >access to scholarly information on the subject unless they enroll in ....... >A scientific background can definitely be very good, but for some areas it >needs to be combined with some training in the humanities. Agreed, on both counts. But the required exposure to humanities can be given to the general public in ways other than a course in south Asian studies in a university. For various historical reasons, the average Indian prefers to pursue higher education in scientific and technological fields, if not in commerce, finance and management. But there is a huge amount of interest in humanistic areas too, especially where these relate to Indian history and culture. What Indologists need to do is to popularize Indology. Like it or not, there is a general feeling among Indians that Indology as a rule subscribes to too much Indophobia. I'll go out on a limb here, and cite the example of Jeffrey Kirpal getting an award from AAR for his book on Ramakrishna. One might say, "that is religious studies, our interests are different", but those outside a university environment do not see a difference. How such a feeling came about among Indians, and whether it is valid or not is besides the point. Given this sentiment, unless western Indologists exhibit some Indophilia, their detractors who come with xenophobic attitudes will keep gaining strength. It is up to professional Indologists to decide whether this is a problem that needs to be addressed and how to address it. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Sat Aug 5 01:44:59 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 21:44:59 -0400 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227060617.23782.17530595434825213338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The "threat," as we see from Rajaram's articles, comes from Christianity and the Pope, Pakistan, Marxists, Western Indologists (of course), and "a barbarism called Talibanism...[whose] goal is to establish a world empire ruled by Islam." I may have missed an enemy or two. You have missed a lot. There is a acute lack of awareness among idologists about current events in India and without trying to be rude I have to say many of you dont seem to have a clue about whats going on. PLease go and read a newspaper or two. As for islamic militants being an enemy of the state: Did any of you hear about yesterdays massacre of 100 hindus in 24 hours in kashmir mostly pilgrims to amarnath, remote villagers migrant labourers. people who tend to be exposed. Last fortnights killing of ladakhi monks and hindus. islamic bombings of churches in karnataka and andhra pradesh last month. massacre of 50 sikhs in kashmir a few mpnths back. the plane hijacking over new years. I guess only those terrosist attacks are deemed legitimate and authentic where US nationals are targeted. pakistan as a potential enemy is not fiction: An enemy is defined as someone you are at war with. Perhaps you may have heard of the kargil war last summer. Marxists are alive and kicking in india only their motives/ideals are challenged at an intellectual level. E.G. Rajaram has not asked that they be lynched. In any case attacking political rhetoric is a foolish excercise. As for christian missionaries yes they can be a subject of some distaste. I know people who dont have religious affliations who undertake social work amongst tribals and often work and coordinate with the church. I have heard them complain that the church is commiting cultural lobotomy. Recall that the pope visited and was welcomed by india last year after being refused by china. Do you think the popes visit to even cristian majority USA would draw just a neutral response ? Let me see you show some love for the televangelist regards RB From vraja at WEST.NET Sat Aug 5 05:15:21 2000 From: vraja at WEST.NET (Pravrajika Vrajaprana) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 22:15:21 -0700 Subject: "translations" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060622.23782.8856885399847652769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Claude Setzer's comment: It is obvious that at least some "Indoologsts" could benefit immensely by talking with native traditionalists before publishing some of their sometimes be more objective, but it is also true that a person outside of the tradition that uses a text can totally corrupt the translation by missing the point of the text. After all, these texts WERE written/created for the purpose of being used within a tradition, not for the sake of later "translation" that ignores the original context. Bravo, point well taken. And kudos also to Vidyasankar Sundaresan for his remarks re: Kali's Child. Had Jeffrey Kripal's manuscript been read by someone within the Ramakrishna tradition--someone with a better knowledge of Bengali and someone familiar with the source books on Ramakrishna--he'd have produced a very different book. Kali's Child suffers not only from faulty translation but from even faultier documentation. Pravrajika Vrajaprana From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sat Aug 5 02:32:09 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 22:32:09 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060618.23782.14311073386078171847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/4/00 5:35:44 PM, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: >What Indologists need to do is to popularize Indology. This is true. I went to a party this spring which had a dozen or so graduate students and faculty members from Columbia University's astronomy department on hand. One faculty member described a quite thorough training program in public speaking and popular writing that he teaches. Students are required to give five minute talks, ten minute talks, thirty minute talks, etc. for different types of audiences--school children, a general adult audience, college students, etc. Astronomy as a field has typically had great outreach. As I was listening to him describe the program, I couldn't imagine an Indological analog. Am I wrong? Does anyone on this list teach these skills as a normal part of their duties? Did anyone receive such training? >Like it or not, there is a general feeling among Indians that Indology >as a rule subscribes to too much Indophobia. Could you be more specific, give some examples? I think Indology would be a very strange career choice for someone who is Indophobic! When and why does the phobia develop? Perhaps too many areas of study are being lumped under the rubric of Indology? I see it as a very small, musty corner that has virtually ceased to exist as a discipline--vastly outgunned by more modern, more general disciplines like linguistics, anthropology, economics, etc. Do you think (some) Indians view anyone who studies India in an academic way is an Indologist? Brian -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Fri Aug 4 21:42:02 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 22:42:02 +0100 Subject: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060609.23782.9889824602055594390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In any analysis of the Hindu hostility to "Western" indology, you must make a distinction between the different eras of western interpretation of Indian history. At one time, history was definitely a tool of imperialism. As to the analogy between Indian communists and nastikas -- a far better comparison is between Rajaram and the communists. If you have time to waste, take a look, e.g., at : http://www.maoism.org/misc/india/india_raj_v2/india_raj_2.htm -arun gupta From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Sat Aug 5 02:49:47 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 22:49:47 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060621.23782.9404277706813397007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> VS> What Indologists need to do is to popularize Indology. Like it or not, there is a general feeling among Indians that Indology as a rule subscribes to too much Indophobia. RB> The arguments need to be believable and palatable. Statements to the effect that aryans did not have a word for happiness till axle holes were invented. a word for brown till they saw beavers. a notion of a territory/perimeter till there were circular wagon encampments. sound bizzare All the above could be true or it could be etymology gone haywire. Who is to tell? What about terminology for chariot parts whose meanings could be determined exactly even after a gap of 3000 yrs. In english bike can mean a motor cycle or a bicycle. It looks like indologists have gone overbooard too and dont want to look at the other side of their cracked seal. Unfortunately there is no visual proof like a seal to show them up. Looking for eastward migration in vedic passages is as bad as a harappan seal reading which allows for any interpretation. THE IE WORD PURVAJ/PROGENITOR IMPLIES THAT INDO EUROPEAN ANCESTORS CAME FROM THE EAST. JUST WANT TO SHOW THAT ALL SORTS OF MIGRATIONS CAN BE READ INTO PASSAGES FROM ANCIENT LITERATURE. There are too many degrees of freedom just like rajarams readings. Also relegating the IVC to a culture of bead makers who left no mark betrays a laziness/narrow mindedness of traditional indologists to think outside of old tradition and confront fresh data. There could have been an early central asian influence on the subcontinent but not proved like this. An examination of vedic vocabulary and substrates as ubdertaken by Dr. witzel seems a much more useful excercise and has some statistical validity. ( e.g. comparision with other IE languages ). At one point sanskrit, iron, chariots, horses, caste system were all supposed to have entered india in one big bang. I am glad to learn that some people have noted that these could have been separated events something I have harped on before. RB From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri Aug 4 21:27:05 2000 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 00 00:27:05 +0300 Subject: Rajaram's PILTDOWN horse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060625.23782.12800005732506879990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fri, 04 Aug 100 21:27 +0300 MSK Subrahmanya S. wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: > I hope that Dr.Rajaram admits his mistake. > > Because it was a visual image and the claim was > very big, the falsity was (comparitively) easy to expose. > When a man builds a non-existing image out of elements borrowed from real images and then uses this falsified image as one of the central arguments to base his pseudo-theory on - do you call it simply a "mistake"? Best regards, Ya.V. --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Institute of Oriental Studies Sat, 05 Aug 100 00:02 +0300 MSK From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sat Aug 5 12:35:42 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 00 05:35:42 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060635.23782.1729646423009173646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although I enjoyed the expose of Rajaram's techno sleight of hand, I have had some trouble with some posts in this thread. I do apologize for this long post. --- Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > Much of the current attack on "Western" Indology > seems to be part of a > strategy that aims at defending Brahminical > traditions and institutions > against a perceived menacing threat. This threat, > it would appear, is seen > as coming from two main flanks: This strikes me as a somewhat naive statement of the character of the current Hindutvavadi movement. It is not clear if it has anything at all to do with Brahmanical traditions and institutions. In fact I'm confident that many of the leaders and their followers wouldn't recognize a Brahmanical tradition if you served it on a platter with bilvapatra around it. Indeed the Hindutvavadi movement even in the heyday of the Congress in the 50's and 60's was strongest among the shopkeeper class in the northern parts of India. In fact it still is. The backbone of the BJP has always been the bania's of northern India. I suppose hindutva is more about grabbing power in a changing political scenario than preserving any aspect of an older tradition. I think the other thing about this post is that it conflates political Hindutva and Hindutva of the scholarly (or the would be scholarly) world. The premises and modus operandi of the two are not identical and sometimes can be in conflict with each other. Political Hindutva rests on the plank that: 1. The last 7-9 centuries before Independence were a dark age because outsiders came in and denuded the country economically and intellectually. Scholarly Hindutva would like to add few more points to the above 2. The Hindus (and their ancestors, the "Aryans") are autochthonous to the region. 3. The Hindus (and their ancestors, the "Aryans") were an ancient and a high culture people. As a consequence of (2) and (3), the Hindutva folks are constrained to claim the IVC for themselves as well as reject the notion that any cultural advances may have been made in the "dark ages". > > 1. Foreigners (Muslim and British-colonialist). > Intellectually, however, > this foreign "threat" comes mainly from the > discipline of Indology, > inasmuch as it does not align itself with some > current nationalist ideas > about indigenous aryanism and the definition of what > is or is not "Hindu." Indeed British - Colonialist scholarship is a concern for the Hindutvavadin scholars because of the crass crudities of the Aryan invasion theory. As examples, we have V Gordon Childe, a Marxist scholar and Mortimer Wheeler, an archaeologist who held Indra responsible for a few skeletons in MohenjoDaro. The AIT and the uses to which it was put has been analyzed in detail by T Trautmann, who is not a Hindutvavadin by any stretch of imagination. The OIT may be held to be a response to the AIT theory from nationalist scholars of a particular hue. The Hindutvavadin's have not yet internalized the AMT (Aryan Migration) theory which is clear from their pronouncements since they still get riled up by Max Mueller etc but not by more modern scholars espousing the AMT theory. I suppose these things take time. But to be sure, the AMT theory has not been internalized in the West either. Learned people still quote Will Durant (a writer on western philosophy and a sympathizer of the noble savage variant of the AIT) approvingly as if he were some kind of an authority on the subject. My daughter's 6th grade social studies text (Novi School district, Michigan State) has on its chapter on India, the AIT theory emblazoned across it like the bunting of a long forgotten victory. > 2. Indian Marxists. In this case, note the negative > connotation that the > term "secular" acquires in many statements. > The erstwhile ruling Congress establishment always had marxists as their ideologues. For example, Nehru's official biographer belongs to the so called progressive JNU school. The trouble which the Hindutvavadi scholars have with the marxists of ICHR and JNU has perhaps more to do with control of academic institutions and privileges of government patronage etc than any hard theories on the Aryans. The marxist scholars themselves, for example, have had no distinct theories on the AIT/AMT issues. They have always been content to repeat the western theories on these subjects. Perhaps on the ground that your enemy's enemy is your friend. On the political plane however, the Hindutvavadin's have hardly had to bother with the Marxists because the latter have always been bit players. And now they are hardly there. So it is not clear what LGR is trying to say. Likewise, the following remarks are also not clear > but the origins of the sAvitR mantra are still vedic > (not Hindu) A rather Judeo-Christian set of parentheses :-) In another context, LGR says > it is clear that some perceive indological ideas as > an attack on brahmins. (See, for instance, the > quotes in Palaniappan's message to this list etc But there are gratuitous attacks on brahmins in the garb of Indological ideas cf. my post in Indology dated 7/28/00 on the thread "Jobless Hindu Gods". This may be a good place to mention that political Dravidianism, of which there is plenty in evidence on this list, is the same kind of rabid disease as Hindutva but more about it another time. LGR's other remarks on "yugAnta" etc, imho, seem to be a case of "Cherchez le Brahmin" mindset. In this context, a quote by J.E.M Houben, in the same thread, makes interesting reading: "The spread of Sanskrit knowledge has been "democratized" [JH: at least within the Hindu nation] instead of being reserved for a religious elite, as in the past." Elite, yes. Religious elite, I'm not so sure. At any rate, the fellow travelers of Hindutvavadin's have dabbled in nothing more serious than conversational Sanskrit. You might want to look up the archives for what this list thought of it. Also, Buddhist Sanskrit or Jaina Sanskrit literature were neither brahminical nor necessarily written by brahmins. Many kings have been writers incl Mahendra Pallava etc.. The scholar K Kunjunni Raja speaks of brahmins learning Sanskrit under non Brahmin teachers in Kerala to steer clear of pronunciation peculiarities inherited from the veda chanting tradition. This kind of reminds me of some hilarious theories floating around the list in recent times on the supposed non-orality of the vedic transmission. Well, it at least had the merit of getting the venerable Staal to make an appearance on the list, even if thru the mundane medium of a forwarded mail. In conclusion, I'd agree with LGR that a scientific background needs to be combined with some training in the humanities just as every Indologist needs to do some basic fieldwork. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Aug 5 11:55:16 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 00 06:55:16 -0500 Subject: Translations Message-ID: <161227060627.23782.10937196692891987401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Yaroslav Vassilkov > > When a man builds a non-existing image out of elements >borrowed from real images and then uses this falsified image >as one of the central arguments to base his pseudo-theory on >- do you call it simply a "mistake"? > At this point - yes, I would call it a mistake, I dont know Dr.Rajram's side and I havent read the book yet. Also, coming to translations - Like I previously asked, what if a scholar inserts non existent meanings into a text ? There are many eminent objective scholars on this list - I am sure that they might have some examples. I look forward to seeing them. Thanks in advance. Regards, Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Aug 5 11:49:21 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 00 07:49:21 -0400 Subject: vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam revisited In-Reply-To: <398B6D3B.73618A6A@mum.edu> Message-ID: <161227060629.23782.18006445294738293213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not quite sure what the real point of contention is. For most modern Indians, anything in Sanskrit is as good as ancient and even Vedic. The theological equality of Sanskrit with Vedic was acceptable already to Kaatyaayana (cf. vaarttika: tat tulyam vedazabdena). The phrase vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam and its medieval parallel Marathi phrase "he vizvaci maaze ghara" were used in perfectly positive universalistic sense. But it is obvious that such phrases can be co-opted for hegemonic purposes as well. A truly Vedic "satyam eva jayate" has become totally meaningless in its modern environment. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 4 Aug 2000, Peter Freund wrote: > "Jan E.M. Houben" wrote: > > > 1. No ancient occurrence in a straightforward dharmic source (e.g. > > manusm.rti) or Vedic source can be found for the phrase, in spite of recent > > claims attached to it through wrong references (I assume out of carelessness > > plus wishful thinking plus trusting unreliable sources, though the help of > > some little "pious fraud" here and there cannot be excluded ... ). > > > > Thomas Egenes replies that the reference to Manusmirti was corrected in later > editions of his book: > The expression vasudhaiva kuTumbakam is now referenced as Mahopanishad 6:71. > > This can be found on page 452 of the Upanishatsamgraha. (Motilal Banarsidass, > 1970) > > Is this a sufficiently "ancient" Vedic source for the phrase? > > Sincerely, > > Peter Freund > From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Fri Aug 4 23:26:14 2000 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Mahoney, Richard B.) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 00 11:26:14 +1200 Subject: Similes & Metaphors Message-ID: <161227060611.23782.9563444795447162686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Hodge Another source for refs. to similies is the following: @Book{ conze:perfection, editor= "E. Conze", title= "The Perfection of Wisdom in Eight Thousand Lines and its Verse Summary", stitle= "The Perfection of Wisdom in Eight Thousand Lines", publisher= "Four Seasons Foundation", year= "1973", key= "Conze:1973b", address= "Bolinas, California" } In the ``List of Topics'' on p. 308, Conze gives refs. to all the major similies in this text. Hope this helps. P.S. If for some reason this message is posted twice then I apologise to all the readers. Our mail server seems to have been having trouble with overseas addresses over the past day or two. -- Many Regards Richard Mahoney Student Department of Philosophy & Religious Studies University of Canterbury New Zealand From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Aug 5 12:13:25 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 00 14:13:25 +0200 Subject: SV: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060631.23782.9915790956427865358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmanya S. [SMTP:subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 4. august 2000 18:28: > Lars, You writing is most humorous. Dear Subrahmanya, congratulations on your sense of humour! Humour is always an attractive feature of somebody's personality, but I am not entirely convinced that you sense of humour is a good one! > You are in effect stating that Western Indologists are the > only people who can scientifically study India ! Have I now? I am not so sure. I have read quite a lot of Indological material written by Indians, most of it quite excellent. I have never questioned, say, Romila Thapar's ability to write on Indian history. The people we are discussing here are not identical with the "Indians" in toto (or for that matter, the "Muslims" or any other broad cathegory in the East.) > It is funny how Western Indologists get all upset when > they are told that their thinking is the same as that of the > old colonial and missionary types. But calling any Indian > who questions the AIT/AMT as being politically motivated > is scholarship eh ? I am quite convinced that you haven't read much modern Indology, otherwise you would not have written this kind of nonsense. I did not mention The Unmentionable Theory (also known as TUT) specifically. The Hindutva rewriting of history also deals with other periods of Indian history (a famous case being the history of a certain temple/mosque in Ayodhya), and I am not entirely convinced that Edward Said would have condoned that sort of writing. I don't think that he is right-wing. Attacking colonialist attitudes among Westerners does not imply that you would accept an obvious instrumentalisation of history with concomitant documentary manipulation. This is not a critical revision of history, it is just partisan history writing. > I am not sure, if you have even understood the kinds of > objections that have been raised against the AIT/AMT, > that you are so willing to dismiss it. I have read enough about the subject to be able to say that I understand it and reject it. > Needless to say, Just like the 19th century indologists > you are are ready to call any Indian objections > as being rooted in faith or religion. > Any Indian who accepts your theories is scientific, and > he who doesnt is not scientific ! Really? I have no problem accepting that Indians have different views on Indian history as long as their views are based on normal academic procedure. Which in the writings of India's blossoming national romanticism is not the case. Here Hoodbhoy's words on "Islamic science" apply: there is no "Islamic science", there is only science, and by the same token: there is no "Hindutva scholarship", there is only scholarship. To put it differently: what is presented as Hindutva scholarship, is mostly only Hindutva, not scholarship. I would like to add, however, that we have had perfectly similar phenomena here in the West - the 19th century and the first half of the 20th was full of them. Some places still are. That is why we are able to use the "duck test" on Hindutva revisionism: if it walks like nationalism and talks like nationalism, it's nationalism. > This kind of attitude is standard Orientalism. Is it now? Why is it then that so many worried Indian academics furiously protest against Hindutva scholarship? Are they all orientalists? All brainwashed by malevolent pinkies? > Is it possible at all that a lesser person like me could also > be scientific ? I haven't the faintest idea, since I don't know what you do. If you're in engineering or some branch of science, you are probably impeccably scientific in your chosen field. That does not necessarily mean that you are "scientific" in fields where you lack the relevant training. > Quote by Said > from http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/Bahri/Orientalism.html > > "One would find this kind of procedure less objectionable as > political propaganda--which is what it is, of course--were it > not accompanied by sermons on the objectivity, the fairness, > the impartiality of a real historian, the implication always > being that Muslims and Arabs cannot be objective but that > Orientalists. . .writing about Muslims are, by definition, by > training, by the mere fact of their Westernness. This > is the culmination of Orientalism as a dogma that not only degrades > its subject matter but also blinds its practitioners." I am afraid you are abusing Said. Muslim and Arabs, like anybody else, can of course be objective. I never claimed otherwise. If you look at my email once more, you will see that I was referring to a particular group of Muslims and Hindus (what we loosely might term the "fundamentalist" ones). And in these circles, scientific objectivity and methodical soundness is scarce. On this matter, Hoodbhoy is perfectly and damningly clear. But then he may of course be a brainwashed agent of Western imperialism. You never know about these particle physicists and mathematicians - Hoodbhoy is both - there are so many strange people among them :-). Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Aug 5 13:15:55 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 00 15:15:55 +0200 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060633.23782.12714778106039393249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan [SMTP:vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 4. august 2000 23:35: > What Indologists need to do is to popularize Indology. This is an interesting point. In principle, you are perfectly right: Indologists should reach out to the general public. The problem is that the general public in many places take little or no interest in India and Indology. Many years ago, a journalist in this country told me that the only way to make India interesting to a Norwegian audience was to relate India in some way to Norway (e.g. Norwegian projects in India). Otherwise, noone would care. In the English language area, there may be a different potential, but Indology for the masses would still seem to have a bleak future. Anyway, there is a certain amount of popular Indology around, written for non-specialists. How many people this literature reaches, I don't know. Like it > or not, there is a general feeling among Indians that Indology > as a rule subscribes to too much Indophobia. It is not my impression that modern Indologists are Indophobic. Most Indologists study India because they find the country and the culture both fascinating and challenging - India is arguably the most interesting society on Earth. They do so in spite of the fact that Indology is a high risk enterprise with a great potential for career killing. But Westerners tend to be critical of certain aspects of Indian society, such as the caste system, which is to be expected given the fact that most Western societies have egalitarian ideals (in spite of the fact that Western societies often are strongly class-divided.) A study of India almost always implicitly means a culture clash, a clash we simply have to live with. But this does not necessarily mean that Western scholars are Indophobic. Most of the Indological literature I have read is full of respect and praise for India's great literary tradition, its wonderful art etc. You don't spend your life studying India unless you have more than a grain of love for the culture and the country. However, academics cannot only produce glowing panegyrics. Being academic means being analytical and critical, and academics tend to be equally critical of their own societies (e.g. Chomsky's and other academics' critique of the Vietnam war and American foreign policy, not to mention the traditional critique of capitalist society that you find among many European intellectuals and academics). Western audiences are often equally enraged by of such critique even if it is not necessarily decried as "Europhobic" or "Americanophobic". In Europe, however, a certain amount of Anti-Americanism is a reality (probably more before than now). So if Indians feel that that Westerners are Indophobic, at least they are not alone: they share the fate of Americans. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Aug 6 07:28:57 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 00:28:57 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's PILTDOWN horse Message-ID: <161227060644.23782.17696354061878691162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav Vassilkov quotes MSK Subrahmanya: > I hope that Dr.Rajaram admits his mistake. > > Because it was a visual image and the claim was > very big, the falsity was (comparatively) easy to expose. Far from repudiating his "horse seal," Rajaram has just sent out a letter to me, Witzel, Elst, Talageri, and a number of Rajaram's fellow OITers in which he vehemently defends the seal -- claiming that I've engaged in "bluff and deception" in attempting to debunk it. There are lots of threats here about court action, etc. According to Rajaram: > ...the whole thing is a desperate > diversionary tactic on the part of Steve Farmer, meant to draw attention > away from the seal with the real evidence by raising the bogey of data > fabrication. Rajaram goes on to claim that the reason I've taken him on is probably tied to: > the realization that Steve Farmer's research program centered > on the horse and spoke-wheel has collapsed. Can I point out that my research focuses on the links between neurobiology and cultural evolution -- and that my "research program centered on the horse and spoke-wheel" is as much a figment of Rajaram's imagination as the "horse seal"? I thought Rajaram would repudiate the seal and blame it all on bad reproductions, as he was gently encouraged to do by K. Elst. Surprise! Steve Farmer From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Aug 6 08:30:53 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 01:30:53 -0700 Subject: Harappan animal icons/inscriptions Message-ID: <161227060646.23782.9269383156284551914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd like to note one small but interesting piece of evidence on links between Harappan animal icons and inscriptions that surfaced while researching the "horse seal" fiasco last week. Not long ago Ferenc Ruzsa (in Budapest) pointed me to prima facie evidence in I. Mahadevan's 1977 concordance of Harappan script that in rare cases -- contrary to claims I made in earlier posts -- the same inscriptions are sometimes associated with different animal icons. This issue is irrelevant to the "horse seal" issue, since we now have hard evidence that Mackay 453 (the broken seal Rajaram used to create his "horse") and Parpola 772 (the seal M. Witzel found that carries the same inscription as Mackay 453) are simply photos of the same seal made decades apart. But before we knew that, it was necessary to check on the "one inscription/different animal" evidence that Dr. Ruzsa pointed to, and one piece of data that turned up when Mahadevan's concordance was checked against the originals turned out to be very interesting indeed. A series of scanned images made by Prof. Witzel, forwarded to Dr. Ruzsa, shows that in most cases Mahadevan's concordance is in error on the "same inscription/different animals" issue. Almost always, close inspection of the different animals that Mahadevan says are linked to identical inscriptions shows that they are simply iconographical variants of the same animal. Witzel's scanned images underline the importance of doublechecking claims in the concordances, which further mask subtle but potentially key differences in Harappan characters by using a standardized computer-generated script. But the prima facie evidence that Dr. Ruzsa gleaned from Mahadevan *has* turned up one clear case where the same inscription *does* show up linked to different animal icons. Mahadevan says that such cases are rare, but I would assume that the one case that we've confirmed is not unique. This one is signaled in the final footnote (p. 27, n. 25) of the introduction of Mahadevan's work. It refers back to photos of two seals found in John Marshall, _Mohenjodaro and the Indus Civilization_, 1931, Vol. III, Plate CIX #252 and Plate CXII #378. The photos of the these two seals in Marshall are tiny and of poor quality, making it difficult to get good scans of them. The quality of the rather dim scans that I've posted at http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/252378.html is about equal to that of Marshall's photos. It is difficult to make out details, but the drooping tail of #252 contrasts clearly with the perky tail of #378; distinctive differences are also apparent in the heads of the animals. Mackay, writing in Marshall, Vol. II (1931: p. 382), suggests that #252 is a garden variety "unicorn" seal; on p. 389, Mackay tells us that #378 is one of several examples of a composite beast he characterizes as "a ram, with the horns of a bull, a human face, and the trunk and tusks of an elephant." The scans show that #252 and #378 both clearly carry the same two-character inscription. One critical piece of evidence is not mentioned by Mahadevan or Mackay. Examination of the tables in Vol. II, pp. 403-4 of Marshall reveals that both seals were discovered at *exactly* the same location (HR 2596) and same depth (3' 0") in Mohenjo-daro. I think that these two seals throw into doubt the most common interpretation of the relationship between animal icons and one frequent type of "seal" inscription. Since the majority of Harappan "seals" (including these two) have round protuberances ("bosses") with holes at the back -- presumably for threading with a cord or string -- it is widely supposed that this kind of "seal" was a personal ID tag. This idea is supported by the fact that impressions of "seals" equipped with "bosses" are exceedingly rare. One further inference often made is that the inscriptions on these "ID tags" are personal names. If this is true, one might reasonably guess that the animal icons are quasi-totemic symbols of some kind -- standing, perhaps, for clans or professions or rank/class or place of origin of the owners. This reasonable chain of hypotheses is weakened by the evidence seen in Marshall #252 and #378. If the inscriptions of this type were personal names, it would be difficult to explain why two identical "ID tags" show up in the same place inscribed with different animal icons. This suggests the alternative hypothesis that the *inscription* refers to a general classification -- that is, to a profession, rank, sub-clan, or other social category -- but *not* to a personal name. The discovery of two such "ID tags" in the same place could, on this view, be easily explained by the presence in that place of two members of the same rank or profession (identified by the inscription) but from different clans or places of origin (symbolized by the quasi-totemic animal icon). This is, of course, only a good guess. What does seem clear is that it is difficult to reconcile the evidence of Marshall #252 and #378 with the common view that inscriptions on these putative "ID tags" contain personal names. The fact that we find a number of duplicates of the much more common "same inscription/same animal" perforated seals also argues against the inscription = personal name hypothesis. Does this line of argument seem reasonable? Can anyone suggest other plausible alternatives? Steve Farmer From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Aug 6 03:33:57 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 03:33:57 +0000 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060638.23782.17502855353284414176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > What Indologists need to do is to popularize Indology. > >This is an interesting point. In principle, you are perfectly right: >Indologists should reach out to the general public. The problem is that the >general public in many places take little or no interest in India and I hardly think Indology can be made palatable to a wide and an international audience. We don't have impressive pyramids, or a great wall visible from outer space, or a Rosetta stone, to capture the imagination. Nor does modern India have the oil or the amount of firepower that some other Asian countries have, to create an interest. Professional Indologists seem to be very concerned over the influence that OIT-ists have over the contemporary Indian population, at home and abroad. If popularizing Indology among is something worth doing, this is the target audience. And the professionals have to take care not to be overly pedantic, and also to be sensitive to the politcal and cultural sentiments of an ex-colony of the old British empire. Is it all that surprising that a country that is just half a century into its life as an independent democracy has a little romance with nationalism? You may have seen the duck in Europe before, but that hardly makes a difference to the Indian nation. The extreme version of this nationalism is distasteful to you and to very many Indians too. However, do remember that to the general Indian ear, European and American talk against nationalism sounds like yet another ploy to keep a third world nation in its place. It seems like the hypocrisy of the nuclear powers when they preach to other states against going nuclear, without making any sincere efforts towards the disarmament of their own weapons. The West is thought of as having already milked all that can be got out of its own versions of nationalism and kin ideologies. Case in point - to say that something is Vedic, not Hindu, presupposes a definition of what is Hindu. Now, what is the Indological definition of "Hindu"? Is there even one commonly accepted definition? If there is one, and if it does not accept the notions the Indian people have about it now, you can expect some immediate friction. So there is no point in being surprised by the vehemence that some things evoke. Another example - all the professionals on this list know much about the alliance of brAhmaNa and kshatriya in classical India. However, to be very blunt about it, if you think this is obvious to the modern Indian, or that it should be obvious, you are living in an ivory tower. I would venture to suggest that this is not even obvious to the few Indian academics involved in Indological studies. India's colonial history has succeeded in creating an image where the indigenous ruling classes are seen as having been quite emasculated, but the priestly classes are thought of as having retained their power, and increased it, through subterfuge, cunning, treacherousness, and above all, collaboration with the British rulers. This is the take-off point for most of those involved in subaltern perspectives on India. Consequently, the word "Brahminical" evokes no image of the kshatriya contribution to Indian society, and creates a false picture of Brahmin on one side and all the non-Brahmin castes on the other - a very potent potion in the caste ridden politics of India today. To say that Indologists are by and large interested only in the Rg Veda and the IVC, and not in British colonial India, is to ignore how inseparably linked the two are historically. To simply assert that contemporary Indologists do not subscribe to the assumptions of those who lived a hundred years ago is not going to be believed, unless supported by proof. And we are sufficiently wary, to insist that the proof of the pudding be in the eating. Indians come with a complex attitude towards the west - on the one hand, the west enamours us, with its industrial and economic successes; on the other hand, it breeds suspicion, with its known history of imperialism and violent racism. We are a people with a very long cultural memory, and we are very reluctant to believe that attitudes change all that greatly, over fifty to seventy years. In the US, there is sufficient racism visible, to remind us that change does not happen overnight. Regarding a perceived Indophobia - too often, the average Indian comes off with a feeling that Indologists are in love with an India that no longer exists, but hate the India that does exist today. And to say that studying India is fascinating because its society is so very complex also evokes unpleasant images of being nothing more than a specimen like some sort of lab rat, to be disposed off, after the study is done. The obvious response is to turn against the person(s) doing the study. If countering any or all this seems like a pointless exercise, then I should think the academic community should just ignore the maverick and right-wing free-lancers. If these people are a serious concern, then the Indologist of Western birth needs to figure out how to win the hearts of the modern, English-speaking, urban- dwelling, Indian, who is most probably Hindu, often in a technical or scientific profession. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sun Aug 6 11:56:54 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 04:56:54 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060653.23782.15509750962542551729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Samar Abbas wrote: > Luis Gonzalez-Riemann is perfectly right in his last > post. In addition, > Rajaram himself belongs to Nehru's caste. > > The Banias only played a secondary role in this > movement. There is in fact > no anti-Bania site - nobody attacks Banias anywhere > on the internet as > "backbone of Hindutva". The Brahmins of the Cow Belt in the 50's and 60's were staunch supporters of the Congress. The BJP was supported by urban and semi urban bania's. Evidently BJP's support has become more broadbased now as is evident from their electoral gains. It can't just be that the BJP has become much more attractive for the middle castes as Prof Gupt has suggested. I'm sure we have to factor in the rising disenchantment of the middle classes with Nehruvian socialism, increased urbanization plus the availability, from the early 80's, of a national network television with an explicit message of consumerism and an implicit message of homogenization. As to your other point, the ideologues of many parties have been brahmin. For example, P Sundarayya and EMS Namboodiripad were communist ideologues. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Aug 6 13:21:42 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 09:21:42 -0400 Subject: SV: SV: Rajaram's bull In-Reply-To: <01BFFFB1.92C5E400.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227060658.23782.11050983843342255473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 6 Aug 2000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > I do appreciate that Indians are wary of Western critique and tend to get > defensive. This is a normal reaction to critique from outsiders everywhere. After some objective and semi-objective remarks, such generalizations are "humorous" (pardon me for the word!). Most Indians are more critical of India than any western critic may imagine. However Indians have just come to learn to fight against sweeping arraogance. Indians have not been good chroniclers and the country depends on others for the characterization and analysis. Unfortunately "others" have not been scholar historians. Some Indians who reconstruct are failing miserably. It will change. > But as professionals working on South Asian matters, you cannot expect us > to be entirely silent. It is our job to hold an opinion, and to express it. > I think scholraly opinions should be always admired. Regards, BM From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sun Aug 6 07:40:40 2000 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 10:40:40 +0300 Subject: Rajaram's PILTDOWN horse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060640.23782.16320321709417988898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fri, 04 Aug 100 21:27 +0300 MSK Subrahmanya S. wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: > I hope that Dr.Rajaram admits his mistake. > > Because it was a visual image and the claim was > very big, the falsity was (comparitively) easy to expose. > > On the other hand - > What happens when a person indulges in mistranslations > of passages in order to prove ones point or theory ? > Is it any less objectionable ? > In both cases we have to judge by the same rules. If a scholar reads an old text wrongly or misinterpretes an old picture we call it a mistake. If he indulges in mistranslations or misinterpretations of old texts/pictures in order to prove his theory, colleagues may suspect such a scholar to be biased. Sooner or later his scholarly reputation would be ruined. But when a man in order to prove his theory 1) prepares a forged text which he declares to be old and authentic (as, for example, the so-called "Protocols of the Wise Men of Zion" - the notorious forgery, favourite of Nazis of all nations), or 2) makes a forged picture which he declares to be old and authentic (as Dr.Rajaram seems to have done, see www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion3.html)- we cannot call it a mistake. It is something else. You may choose the word yourself. Regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Institute of Oriental Studies Sun, 06 Aug 100 10:02 +0300 MSK From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sun Aug 6 06:57:49 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 12:27:49 +0530 Subject: Rajaram's bull In-Reply-To: <20000805123542.24746.qmail@web110.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227060642.23782.12937840251834962458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 5 Aug 2000, Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > Indeed the Hindutvavadi movement ... was strongest among the > shopkeeper class in the northern parts of India. ... The backbone of > the BJP has always been the bania's of northern India. This is factually incorrect. The Gujaratis and Banias are mainly an innovative, innocent, and hard-working people. Gujarat, the center of Banias, has the highest (after Punjab) per-capita income of all Indian states. Even in the West, many motels and businesses are owned by the thriving Patels. To bash these persons as the "backbone of Hindutva" is to do a grave injustice to a model community. Let us see who are the real fathers of Hindutva: 1. Hegdewar, founder of the Sangh, his caste is given at ( ref. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1050/Hitler1.html ) 2. Golwalkar, 2nd leader of RSS, his caste is given at (ref. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1050/Hitler2.html; http://www.comebackkid.com/madhav2.html ) 3. S.P.Mukherjee, founder of BJP, his caste is known to all. 4. Secret name of BJP is actually "B****** Jati Party" (ref. Dalit Voice, http://dalitstan.org/voice/ ) 5. Sudarshan, current leader of RSS, his caste is given at (ref. http://dalitstan.org/journal/politics/hindutva/sudhwar.html ) 6. Pandit Nehru, although some on this list wish to protray him as an innocent `socialist', was actually an admirer of Hitler and supported RSS too ( cf. http://dalitstan.org/journal/politics/hindutva/finasslt.html ) Luis Gonzalez-Riemann is perfectly right in his last post. In addition, Rajaram himself belongs to Nehru's caste. The Banias only played a secondary role in this movement. There is in fact no anti-Bania site - nobody attacks Banias anywhere on the internet as "backbone of Hindutva". But there are plenty of hate sites which attack Indira Gandhi's caste (eg. http://www.allindiaserver.com ). [ Not that I agree with these websites - I am giving them just to prove a point. ] That is not to say that a particular community should be demonised or persecuted for the crimes of a few. Of course, many will be innocent, - especially those belonging to the elite. But to shift the blame onto another community altogether is perhaps pushing things a bit. > This may be a good place to mention that political Dravidianism, of > which there is plenty in evidence on this list, is the same kind of > rabid disease as Hindutva but more about it another time. Dravidianism is, as far as I can see, the pride which an indigenous community feels for what the entire international community acclaims as its achievements. How is it a "rabid disease" ? Samar From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Aug 6 12:08:25 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 14:08:25 +0200 Subject: SV: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060656.23782.7134780062368539728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan [SMTP:vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 6. august 2000 05:34: Thank you for an interesting answer to my remarks. > I hardly think Indology can be made palatable to a wide and an > international audience. We don't have impressive pyramids, or > a great wall visible from outer space, or a Rosetta stone, to > capture the imagination. Nor does modern India have the oil or > the amount of firepower that some other Asian countries have, > to create an interest. I beg to disagree. 1) You have a number of highly impressive buildings and monuments that in themselves should be enough to bring people to India. It is true that you don't have a lot of oil, but 2) you do have a very big army (the fourth largest in the world, I believe). Reasons for lack of interest must be sought elsewhere. In the case of your army, it has so far been unable to project power credibly beyond South Asia. But if India reaches a point where it - like the former Soviet Union - can design and productionalise advanced and reliable long-range military equipment, the interest in India should logically increase. > Professional Indologists seem to be very concerned over the > influence that OIT-ists have over the contemporary Indian > population, at home and abroad. The problem is not so much that they propagate the OIT. The problem is rather that the OIT is part of a larger ideological package, parts of which are not innocent. If popularizing Indology among > is something worth doing, this is the target audience. That is certainly a relevant point. >And the > professionals have to take care not to be overly pedantic, and > also to be sensitive to the politcal and cultural sentiments of > an ex-colony of the old British empire. Is it all that surprising > that a country that is just half a century into its life as an > independent democracy has a little romance with nationalism? Not at all! Warning a people against national romaticism is about as futile as warning young people against unhappy love affairs. However, intellectuals and professionals do have a responsibility to react and not to condone the exploitation of such sentiments to the degree that it is done in the Hindutva movement. As already said: we have made our experiences. It > seems like the hypocrisy of the nuclear powers when they preach > to other states against going nuclear, without making any sincere > efforts towards the disarmament of their own weapons. The West > is thought of as having already milked all that can be got out of > its own versions of nationalism and kin ideologies. This is certainly an important point. Western hypocrasy is a well-established fact, clear for everybody to see. But: The West has due to various nationalisms and totalitarian ideologies in the course of the 20th century lost some 50 million lives - in Europe alone. In addition, there are the proxy wars in Asia and Africa which have brought about a death and destruction to millions of peoples. You could say that Westerners speaks from bitter experience, but without moral authority. Please remember, however, that noone on this list is a spokesman for a government. And lack of moral authority does not necessarily mean that arguments are wrong. > Case in point - to say that something is Vedic, not Hindu, > presupposes a definition of what is Hindu. Now, what is the > Indological definition of "Hindu"? Is there even one commonly > accepted definition? I wouldn't venture to give a definition of a Hindu, but Vedic does have a definition. It refers to a literature where the subjunctive is still a living grammatical category. In other words: the four Vedas, the Brahmanas and the oldest (13) upanishads, plus the concomitant sutras. > Another example - all the professionals on this list know much > about the alliance of brAhmaNa and kshatriya in classical India. > However, to be very blunt about it, if you think this is obvious > to the modern Indian, or that it should be obvious, you are living > in an ivory tower. I am not claiming that this is obvious to the modern Indian. However, there are figures to support the suggestion that Hindu nationalism is spearheaded and dominated by the upper castes, particularly Brahmins. Christophe Jaffrelot presents the following composition of the Jana Sangh and BJP National Executive between 1980 - 91: Jana Sangh BJP BJP (1954-67/72-7) (1980-91) (1993-5) Brahmin 76 (74.2) 57 (58.2) 57 (56.4) Rajput 7 (7) 7 (7.1) 4 (3.9) Bania/Jain 11 (10.5) 11 (11.2) 13 (12.8) Khattri 14 (13.5) 8 (8.1) 8 (7.9) etc. (The table goes on for about a page). The trend shows that the composition of the BJP National Executive 1980-91 seems to have become more balanced: the over-representation of the upper castes has been eroded, while the number of low-caste members marginally increased. Brahmins and Banias continued to make up about one-third of the total members. The decrease in Brahmins is obviously due to the wish to project a more amenable face to the OBC voters. At the local level the BJP hierarchy was overwhelmingly dominated by upper-caste members, even in the "Tribal districts". (See Christophe Jaffrelot: the Sangh Parivar in "The BJP and the Compulsions of Politics in India". Ed. by Thomas Blom Hansen and Christophe Jaffrelot, Oxford University Press 1998. ) I don't have a quarrel with Reimann's remarks about discontinuities, but when I see Hindutva politics, I am always reminded of the slogan of the Norwegian Conservative party: "Change to preserve". There is solid evidence that the Brahmins and other upper castes have the edge in the shaping of Hindutva policies. Therefore, instead of listening to rhetoric we should have a look at substance. I fear, that as the French say, "plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose" (the more it changes, the more it's the same thing). The fact that Indians are not aware of this, should perhaps be a reason for worry. >To say that Indologists are by and large > interested only in the Rg Veda and the IVC, and not in British > colonial India, is to ignore how inseparably linked the two are > historically. This needs some elaboration. In principle, there is a difference between "Indology" which is the traditional word for the study of ancient India, and "South Asian" studies that cover both the modern and ancient period. To simply assert that contemporary Indologists do > not subscribe to the assumptions of those who lived a hundred > years ago is not going to be believed, unless supported by proof. The proof lies in the Indological production which has been forthcoming since the second world war. This is precisely the production that is unknown to most Indians. The Indology of the 19th century is still available and reprinted in India, whereas Western Indology after partition is not well known. (I also wonder how much Indians know of Indology printed in German and French). > Indians come with a complex attitude towards the west - on the > one hand, the west enamours us, with its industrial and economic > successes; on the other hand, it breeds suspicion, with its known > history of imperialism and violent racism. We are a people with > a very long cultural memory, and we are very reluctant to believe > that attitudes change all that greatly, over fifty to seventy > years. In the US, there is sufficient racism visible, to remind > us that change does not happen overnight. Imperialism and racism are historical facts, but as for racism, please remember that there has been a consistent struggle in the West against racism ever since the end of the second world war. A number of views and attitudes that were prevalent even among educated people before 1945 are today practically non-existent in the educated part of the population. Racism still exists, quite evidently, but the responsible attitude propagated by academics almost universally in the West (with a few exceptions) is persistently anti-racist. > Regarding a perceived Indophobia - too often, the average Indian > comes off with a feeling that Indologists are in love with an > India that no longer exists, but hate the India that does exist > today. This objection is more difficult to answer, because I don't know the heart and minds of my colleagues to that extent :-). But claiming that we "hate" India as it is today is a bit over the top, I believe. If you use the word "critical", that is probably closer to the truth. But please not that we are critical of India in much the same way that many Indians are critical of India: we worry about corruption, unhealthy caste politics, social discrimination etc., and we also worry about similar phenomena in our own societies. >And to say that studying India is fascinating because > its society is so very complex also evokes unpleasant images of > being nothing more than a specimen like some sort of lab rat, to > be disposed off, after the study is done. The obvious response > is to turn against the person(s) doing the study. I have yet to meet a scholar/scientist who did not at least to some extent regard his object of study as a "laboratory rat" at some level. I once overheard a surgeon say at a conference that "what I like most are really heavy traffic injuries". That does not mean that he was happy to see people getting their lifes wrecked in traffic accidents. He just showed the professional distance that is necessary for a thinking person to get a grip on difficult problems. Like any society, India is a "laboratory rat" to the sociologist or historian, but unlike rats, we don't want to dispose of that society after it has been studied :-). > If countering any or all this seems like a pointless exercise, > then I should think the academic community should just ignore the > maverick and right-wing free-lancers. If these people are a serious > concern, then the Indologist of Western birth needs to figure out > how to win the hearts of the modern, English-speaking, urban- > dwelling, Indian, who is most probably Hindu, often in a technical > or scientific profession. I believe that much of the resistance to Hindutva scholarship in academic circles is due to the following factors: 1) it is simply perceived as wrong 2) it attacks Western scholars in a venomous manner, which inevitably stimulates a response 3) it is part of an ideological/political package that many Western Indologists and South Asianists see as detrimental to Indian society based on the arguments about nationalism etc. that I have already mentioned. And as you know, not all Indians are equally happy about Hindutva. Western scholars are not aligned against "the Indians". We are to the contrary aligned with some Indians against other Indians, and as Koenrad Elst has shown, there are even some Westerners aligned with the Hindutva crowd against our crowd. It is not a clear-cut case of the West against India. I do appreciate that Indians are wary of Western critique and tend to get defensive. This is a normal reaction to critique from outsiders everywhere. But as professionals working on South Asian matters, you cannot expect us to be entirely silent. It is our job to hold an opinion, and to express it. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sun Aug 6 18:59:02 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 14:59:02 -0400 Subject: SV: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060665.23782.15004264743228766756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/5/00 3:09:22 PM, lmfosse at ONLINE.NO writes: >I did not mention The Unmentionable Theory (also known as TUT) specifically. aka "Theory Voldemort" ;-) -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Aug 6 16:35:27 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 16:35:27 +0000 Subject: Rajaram's bull/hindutva Message-ID: <161227060648.23782.18222501682193339806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> continued from previous post... Gandhi reaffirmed the caste order, Nehruvian socialism used it to patronise the lower caste for votes and never encouraged caste-eliminative movements as the Congress was ostensibly observing the British policy of non-interference in religious matters. The Indian Marxists asserted that varna/caste was class in India and hence the caste struggle was class struggle. Savarna(Brahmin,khatri,bania) vs a-savarna+ Muslims,Buddhists, Christians, is the real caste/class struggle, they said. But this did not work, as asavar.nas needed hierarchy to look down upon somebody as much as does the upper castes. See Bihar and Tamilnadu-Karnataka conflicts. Either ALL of it goes or all of it stays. The rise of Hindutva came exactly at this point in social history as it offered an identity to divert from caste conflict. It is not promoting a caste dissolution but hoping to downplay and subsume it under bigger Hindu identity as varna is economically outdated in urban society. Hence its emphasis on technocratisation , even globalisation. It has disjointed Brahmavaada, from Brahmins and is promotive of middle castes acquiring it, a repeated phenomenon in history, which Indological studies have not payed much attention to. Sociologists like MN Srinivas have done better to show mobility within varna-vyavasthaa. No surprise that for VHP, Vivekananda's Advaita is pushed more than Shankara's and Aurobindo's yoga more than Patanjali's as practised in older sects. Under BJP, Universities are planning to teach courses for priestly duties (purohitatva) without caste or gender restrictions. Caste Brahmins and banias are at the lowest priority for the BJP. The middle and lower caste and tribals are being offered more cultural and political power. The BJP offers the road to share it with upper castes which Congress was once doing but cant anymore as its Dynastic Socialism has crumbled. Hindutva, within the country, fills the vacuum created by the fall of socialism and it also loudly promises to combat the Islamic and Evengelical aggressions. For some time, it can also cash upon the downfall of Marxism which in India had opposed everything religious and artisitc as opium of the masses. Remember India was never "enlightened" or "secularised" or even "Romanticised" as was Europe to receive Marxism. Indology must get involved with the redefining of old terms in present day Indian society, native and diasporian. It does not have to produce songs or stinkers but only record the change as a presennt day growth which is much more than the growth of what the BBC & CNN keep calling "the Hindu right wing party". A course on Dayanada, Gandhi, Ravi Shankar, Sai Baba, Krishnamurti and Indian films can also be indology along with Vedic chariots. Bharat Gupt From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Aug 6 16:35:39 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 16:35:39 +0000 Subject: Rajaram's bull/Hindutva Message-ID: <161227060651.23782.9739420708550741699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > > Although I enjoyed the expose of Rajaram's techno > sleight of hand, I have had some trouble with some > posts in this thread. I do apologize for this long > post. > > --- Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > wrote: > > > Much of the current attack on "Western" Indology > > seems to be part of a > > strategy that aims at defending Brahminical > > traditions and institutions > > against a perceived menacing threat. Thanks to LS for bringing some analysis on the topic through his incisive comments. I am wondering if it is not the time to redefine "Brahminical traditions" which to my mind has been defined too lexically so far. It is more of less as if the people of the Book have only looked for the Books of India and the Book Keepers of India. This approach does not go with the sociological and anthropological methodolgy of studying India either. The so called Brahmanism , both as a caste-order and as Upanishadic Brahmavaada, has been supported more by non-Brahmins because the hierarchical order of vr.na-aas'rama dharma has always benefitted the assertive and upwardly mobile sections of Indic populations and Brahmavaada has given a final aim to Tantra, Yoga, Shaktism, Bhakti and many other philosophies. Brahmins and banias have not needed Brahminism, as neither need upward mobility. Most in need have been the middle castes (like Shivaji) or var.nasankaraja, now redefined as OBC (other backward classes). Not shopkeepers anymore but Bal Thackerays working class much more. No Manu or his caste-fellows could have instituted a system if it was not useful to the bulk of people. It has been useful even to the untouchables as there are untouchables for other untouchables to despise. The hierarchical society was useful to the Turks, Afghans, Lodis and Mongols/Mughals as well because they found a place in it -- the neo Muslims vs blue blood Muslims, (eg. Amir Kusro vs the Turkish aristocracy), a hierarchy that obtains to this day among Muslims in matters of marriage. It is a fiction that medieval Islam was teaching equality of mankind and enticing Hindus on these grounds. Islam was reaffirming hierarchy and except in fragments had no communication with Indian religious systems. The colonial era created a more restrictive and lexical definitions both of Brahminism and the Hindu by restricting them to mean only those who accept the Vedas and Upanishads as revelation. Whereas historically, Buddhists, Jains, Shaivs etc had all accepted the var.na system, an impression has come to prevail that Brahmins created Manu. Hence Ambedkar turned to Buddhism for liberation from caste. But the reslut was zero, caste stayed, rings with rings among the untouchables now called dalits. continued next post best wishes Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Sun Aug 6 17:16:20 2000 From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 19:16:20 +0200 Subject: Franz Osten: "Life of the Buddha" Message-ID: <161227060661.23782.12645495514504442787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, a friend of mine told me about a documentary film, titled "Das Leben des Buddha" ("Life of the Buddha") which was directed by Franz Osten in 1928. According to his informations there is only one copy of the film which has survived in some archive in Poona. Does anyone of you know more about the film, its whereabouts and how a copy of it could be procured? Thanks jn From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sun Aug 6 17:51:44 2000 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 19:51:44 +0200 Subject: Franz Osten: "Life of the Buddha" Message-ID: <161227060663.23782.8745800186518347718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Juergen Neuss wrote: > Dear list members, > a friend of mine told me about a documentary film, titled "Das Leben des > Buddha" ("Life of the Buddha") which was directed by Franz Osten in > 1928. According to his informations there is only one copy of the film > which has survived in some archive in Poona. Does anyone of you know > more about the film, its whereabouts and how a copy of it could be > procured? > > Thanks > jn You must be referring to the film "Die Leuchte Asiens"/"The Light of Asia"/"Prem Sanyas", directed by Franz Osten (whose real name was Ostermayr), in cooperation with the Indian actor Himansu Rai, for the German film company Emelka in Munich. The film was released in 1925; its first screening took place on October 22nd 1925 in Munich; it was then shown in Berlin on November 2nd at the occasion of the opening of the cinema "Picadilly". Osten thereafter directed the films "Shiraz" (1928), "A Throw of Dice" and "Achhut Kanya" (dates unknown to me). In 1935, he founded the company "Bombay Talkies" and made another 16 purely Indian film productions. He later worked for Bavaria Film in Munich and finally ended up as a "Kurdirektor" (sorry, I don't know the English word for this profession :-)) in Bad Aibling. I am not not exactly sure where a copy of "The Light of Asia" could be located today, but it was shown at a small festival in Wiesbaden in February 1999 called "Buddhismus im Film". The festival was organized by Barbara K?kenhoff (Nerostr.34, 65183 Wiesbaden). I also have an entry for a book on Franz Osten, which however I haven't seen yet: Gerhard Koch, "Franz Osten's Indian Silent Films" (New Delhi 1983). Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sun Aug 6 19:31:49 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 20:31:49 +0100 Subject: vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam revisited In-Reply-To: <398B6D3B.73618A6A@mum.edu> Message-ID: <161227060667.23782.1989856099784604268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At first glance, the MahA UpaniSad doesn't look that ancient. It assumes a highly developed VaiSNava theology, and its language contains constructions not found in the principal UpaniSads,such as complex, multi-element compounds, and the participle in -tavat used as a past active tense. Peter Freund wrote > >Thomas Egenes replies that the reference to Manusmirti was corrected in later >editions of his book: >The expression vasudhaiva kuTumbakam is now referenced as Mahopanishad 6:71. > >This can be found on page 452 of the Upanishatsamgraha. (Motilal Banarsidass, >1970) > >Is this a sufficiently "ancient" Vedic source for the phrase? Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From medhi at CSI.COM Sun Aug 6 19:45:28 2000 From: medhi at CSI.COM (Prasenjit Medhi) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 20:45:28 +0100 Subject: Questions from a Neophyte Message-ID: <161227060669.23782.15614309233728873854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greets, I just stumbled across the Indology list a few hours ago, following a link from another website. I have an amateur's interest in history. History affords one the opportunity to learn about one's self, one's (presumed) ancestors and may provide a useful tool in predicting the future course of events and the actions of current leaders, or to at least, say with some degree of authority, that one begins to understand why a person of another cultural background, nationality, acts in the way he or she does. As an Indian citizen I am familiar with the urge to strongly react to statements or actions that one perceives to be biased, Euro-centric, and the like. I personally view self-centricism or ethno-centricism as quite explanable in human beings because of the nature of human consciousness which seperates us from nature's barbarity, and from each other. Naturally, man must think of himself as a god, or at least one's ethnic group, as defined by 'race', or religion or language, since we can never truly comprehend another and thus view him or her as a lesser being :) In any case, there is a credibility issue in India when it comes to the history of India as presented by Westerners, and currently by Marxists. One is seen to be the agent of a Euro-centric urge to explain relative European 'modernity' in the 19th century as a result of some innate European superiority, and to paint a scenario in which such dominance would be indefinite, and inevitable. While the proponents of the other are viewed as being irrational and unobjective in their attempts to peddle a class-warfare theme. While it is of course nonsense to contend that a 'Westerner' is incapable of presenting unbiased, objective historical facts on India, considering that they will be tempered by his own experiences and impossible-to-do-away with biases that all of us to some degree share, there is the view in India which contends that history, along with the social sciences, in its modern avatar, is mainly a convenient tool used by Europeans to paint, at least with regard to India, to paint the same in unflattering color and language. There have been two themes in the 'Indian response'. The dominant theme has been to paint all Europeans as colonial agents who sought to discredit all things Indian, and to in turn paint an amazingly Indo-centric picture of history in which India is the cradle of civilization, the source of all cosmic truth, and so on. The other themse has been to calmly address discrepencies or questions raised about events and epochs in Indian civilizational history, and to present an objective scientific case for 'revision'. Unforunately, the Left and the Right in India have politized history, and any attempt at 'revision' is opposed by the Left, including objective scientific work. Meanwhile the Right will introduce even more bizarre historical theories. The truth, as is most often the case, is left by the right of the wayside. The danger here is that the proponents of ultra-right wing historical revision often find willing believers to their view that European colonial historians have often been guilty of changing the results of their experiments to match their theories. As the strength of revisionist sentiment gains ground, there is a danger that revisionists themselves will be guilty of the crime of ethno-centric bias that they acsuse European historians of, and moreover, will be as successful, at peddling their particular version of history. IMHO, there needs to be an effort to present an as rational and objective, and persuasive, as possible historical picture of Indian civilization, in order to bring on board those who would champion indo-centric theories at the cost of objectivity, and for the sake of objectivity itself. One question that mainstream(though less numerous from what I have observed) Indologists have to answer is why the conventional dates and theories on Indian civilization have met such opposition from Indian historians. Perhaps some of the latter are bigots and supremacists, but could some be motivated by a desire to hold to the objective historical facts? Some questions raised by those who question Lord Macaulay's history of India :) : Is there a case for the Indian origin of Indo-European languages? Is there a case for the IVC being proto-Vedic? Is there a case for the Saraswati civilization being either part of, or concurrent to the IVC? And was the Saraswati civilization a historical reality or is the conjuration on the part of Indian historians to give Indian civilization greater anitquity. Is there a 'race for the oldest' title on? Do we sacrifice objectivity for it? Is opposition to claims by Indian historians or Chinese historians that their civilizations predated or were at least concurrent to civilization in Mes. and Egypt based on a desire to defend objectivity or something else? Where does the truth lie, friends? Is there an objective history of the world? Or is History simply an old boys network and bragging club(s)? And is it possible to have _real_(TM) history? Regards, Prasenjit From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Aug 7 09:58:37 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 02:58:37 -0700 Subject: The Rajaram Syndrome Message-ID: <161227060680.23782.13956716097251435580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Learnt from Steve Farmer's mail about Rajaram's reactions to the exposure [by Michael Witzel and Steve Farmer] of his creative research methodology, a reaction not quite unexpected of a man of his kind of ideological commitment and conviction [as evident in the sword-of-truth files, which unfortunately is the limit of my Rajaram-reading]. Some day, some one is going to write on the semiotics of South Asian Cultural History, and the future researcher would certainly be thankful that a body of writing exists on the topic of Authenticity-from-Ethnicity. So for now, Navaratna S. Rajaram is but one more addition to the curiosity-corner of colourful indology [the small 'i' intended]. But the Rajaram-syndrome seems to persist and thrive with arguments from other areas, other angles, some related to the argument from ethnicity, others directed at the mistakes of 'those other guys'. No argument from political reality [questions like "Do you have any idea what is happening now in India?"] validates data doctoring. Someone else's mistake in some other area does not make your wrong right. On the other hand, as Bijoy Misra said, many Indians are critical of India, so the rash generalization of border-line Indologists [how do I define 'border-line Indologists'?- some other day, some other immediate context] about Indians at home and in diaspora is immature and irresponsible. bhadraM te. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 7 05:51:32 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 05:51:32 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060671.23782.17959398121320291357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >interest must be sought elsewhere. In the case of your army, it has so far >been unable to project power credibly beyond South Asia. But if India Well, we must be thankful that the Indian army is not structured so as to project much power internally too. Look at the history of our Islamic twin nation and its children born in 1971. >reaches a point where it - like the former Soviet Union - can design and > productionalise advanced and reliable long-range military equipment, the >interest in India should logically increase. But in an adverse manner. Unless of course, India becomes so important for trade that talk of "containment" replaces that of "extermination". All this is the stuff of international politics, so I'll stop here. >rather that the OIT is part of a larger ideological package, parts of which >are not innocent. Sure, but what irks many south Asians is that Indologists never seem to take a stand about the ideological package that came with the old AIT theory, even when they review it as simply past history. For example, it does not seem to be very well known that part of the Tamil vs. Sinhala problem in Sri Lanka is that the Sinhalese elite think of themselves as Aryans, and therefore superior to the Dravidians who speak Tamil. The remnants of the old ideologies that came with AIT continue to wreak havoc in south Asian societies, but hardly anyone from the West seems to want to acknowledge this. And of course, we should not even talk of the zarmaNya-deza in this context, or else the debate will only degenerate into pazavaH vs. tRNavaH name calling (see listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0003&L=indology&P=R19811 - thanks to Tim Cahill for the apt analogy). Personally, I don't think Indologists hate the India that exists, nor do I think they unconditionally love the India that is no more. I am just conveying the feeling that sits at the back of the minds of many people. But I do think that Indologists often fail to understand what is happening in Indian society today. Not too many years ago, there was a hilarious discussion on this list. The issue was whether playing a drum with a leather head compromised the brAhmaNa-by-birth status of a contemporary Indian musician. Too much attention is paid to the long outdated manusmRti, and the contemporary overtones of varNa and jAti in Indian society and politics are ignored. Re: the Indological work done within the last four or five decades - Lakshmi Srinivas's post should make clear that this hasn't penetrated the minds of textbook authors even in the USA. I would imagine the situation in Europe is very much the same. If you notice, much of the heat in the AIT vs. OIT debates arises from the fact that AIT is still the paradigm that children in India have to learn to pass their examinations, that in turn, have a big say in their lives. This is as far as the general Indian spectator of this debate is concerned. Among those involved in education policy in India, the question is that of who gets political control. And if you notice, instead of approaching the problem constructively, any debate on updating the pedagogy ends up in accusations of being either a "communalist" or a "Marxist". Between the two labels, there is no room for an honest intellectual look at the problem. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From OLES56 at AOL.COM Mon Aug 7 12:58:28 2000 From: OLES56 at AOL.COM (Helen Oles Giunta) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 08:58:28 -0400 Subject: truth is god Message-ID: <161227060694.23782.8181866957010668337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/7/00 8:12:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN writes: << Mahatma Gandhi modified the well-known saying God is truth to make a profound statement. If we adhere to truth, then we shall become a role model and source of strength to other truth-seekers. >> Dear Mr. Kochhar , How beautifuly you put your thoughts. But did not the sages also say that " truth is one called by many names " ?............ And so the never ending play ( lilla ) continues . Mrs. Helen O . Giunta From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Mon Aug 7 13:24:44 2000 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 09:24:44 -0400 Subject: Maya and Truth Message-ID: <161227060704.23782.2452037166897966251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the recent discussion about God and Truth there seems to be a tacit presumption that maya is not truth. Why should this be so? In rejecting maya as an illusion Shankar's Advaita Vedanta offers a clever solution to the problem of appearance versus reality. But let us not forget that to the Tantrics, and especially Kashmir Shaivites in particular, the affirmation and celebration of maya is the only doorway to Truth. Harsha Dehejia Professor of Religion, Carleton University Ottawa, ON. Canada. From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Aug 7 07:42:07 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 09:42:07 +0200 Subject: Pancagavya Message-ID: <161227060675.23782.5149282561577971863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Ayurveda the cow and the buffalo are very much contrasted. See Francis Zimmerman's excellent study The Jungle and the Aroma of Meats: An ecological theme in Hindu medicine. Berkeley: University of California, ca. 1987 (I don't have the book with me now and don't know the original French title). Zimmerman's book also refers to Dharmasastric sources. See especially chapter I: The Jungle and the Water's Edge [when I remember it correctly: the cow lives in the spacy and healthy araNya -- which has a positive sense here -- so its meat is salubrious; the buffalo lives in the marginal anuupa, its meat is heavy, overly unctuous, hard to digest.] chapter VIII: Animals in the Sequence of Foods -- The Hindu Equivalent of the Chain of Being -- Science and Myth -- The Pundit's Taxonomies Best wishes, Jan Houben -----Original Message----- From: Professor D N Jha To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Friday, August 04, 2000 3:59 PM Subject: Re: Pancagavya Dear List Members, Is it possible to trace the earliest dharmasastric mention of pancagavya? If the five products of the cow can be puricants, why not those of the buffalo? As far as I know (I may be wrong, though!) that taxonomically the meat of the cow cannot be separated from that of the buffalo. D.N.Jha From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Aug 7 17:11:50 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 10:11:50 -0700 Subject: Harappan animal icons/inscriptions Message-ID: <161227060718.23782.11680824144448701664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc Ruzsa writes (on Marshall 252 and 378): > Now Mahadevan in fact writes: > "The two sides of 1252 (MIC 252 and 378) have the same text but different > field symbols." > So according to Mahadevan they are not two objects at all, but two sides of > the *same* seal. > Can somebody check? So much for the "different animal/same inscription" argument in this case. I missed this in Mahadevan and was misled by Marshall 1931, where the pictures of the two sides are shown in different Plates. I have a note from M. Witzel that supports the idea that they are opposite sides of the same object. In light of what we've already found, Ferenc, does *any* evidence remain of "different animals/same inscription" on separate seals? The suggestions of this in Mahadevan's concordance on copper plates, as you know, have turned out to be incorrect. Maybe my original claim that the same inscriptions are always associated with the same animals holds for separate seals? Any exceptions to this rule might tell you a lot. > If it is really one object, then one text (the *single* owner's - name???) can > have two animals - two affiliations? A maternal and a paternal descent? A > tribe and a position (e.g. in the king's service - the ubiquitous unicorn)? Interesting conjectures. Has anyone ever closely studied the data just on the two-sided seals? I'm not certain how many of them are around. On inscriptions on "bossed" seals as names: > I think there is nothing impossible or improbable in two persons of different > tribes having identical names. You can have [in principle] a Lame Deer of the > Sioux and of the Apache. > On the other hand the texts probably cannot be names of professions - there > are simply too many different words. If they are not just free text (like a > family or personal motto), they should be names, I think. But not necessarily > personal names: they might as well be clan or sub-clan names, or even > designations of small areas/willages. Again, good points. This said, do you think that the number of duplicates of inscriptions on the "bossed" seals argue againstthe personal name thesis, as I conjectured? You have a better idea of how many duplicates of this sort are around than I do. Steve Farmer From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Aug 7 17:25:20 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 10:25:20 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's bull (response to LS) In-Reply-To: <20000805123542.24746.qmail@web110.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227060720.23782.8794867877610384619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few remarks on Lakshmi Srinivas' comments on what I wrote. >Indeed British - Colonialist scholarship is a concern >for the Hindutvavadin scholars because of the crass >crudities of the Aryan invasion theory. As examples, >we have V Gordon Childe, a Marxist scholar and >Mortimer Wheeler, an archaeologist who held Indra >responsible for a few skeletons in MohenjoDaro. The >AIT and the uses to which it was put has been analyzed >in detail by T Trautmann, who is not a Hindutvavadin >by any stretch of imagination. Precisely. Trautmann would surely fit more into the category of a "Western Indologist," and it is he who is criticizing the ideas of other "Western Indologists." As for the skeletons, it was the late G. Dales, a Western Archaeologist (from right here in UC, Berkeley) that disputed -almost 40 years ago- the theory about them as evidence of violent destruction. See: Dales, G.F. 1964. The Mythical Massacre at Mohenjo Daro. Expedition, vol. 6, 3: 36-43. >The OIT may be held to be a response to the AIT theory >from nationalist scholars of a particular hue. Yes, but please note that Indology is not the AIT theory. The arrival of aryans into India, or their exit out of India if serious evidence ever points in that direction, is only one of many topics in Indology. People like Rajaram turn their distaste for the migration theory into an attack on Indology as a discipline, a discipline that is then said to be part of a wide conspiracy against India. >Hindutvavadin's have not yet internalized the AMT >(Aryan Migration) theory which is clear from their >pronouncements since they still get riled up by Max >Mueller etc but not by more modern scholars espousing >the AMT theory. I suppose these things take time. This has been discussed before on this list. George Thompson, for one, has complained repeatedly about the reliance on 19th century ideas on the part of those who criticize this "insidious discipline" of Indology (to use Rajaram's words). This might be understandable for non-specialists, or for people in India that have no access to Western publications. But would you say it is acceptable from would-be scholars, some of whom have ample access to modern materials and even live in the West? But let me ask you. If these Hindutvavadins do "internalize" it, will it really make an important difference? Whether by invasion or migration it still means they arrived from somewhere else. Wasn't your second point about "scholarly Hindutva" its conviction that "The Hindus (and their ancestors, the "Aryans") are autochthonous to the region"? >But to be sure, the AMT theory has not been >internalized in the West either. Learned people still >quote Will Durant... In the West this is a pretty specialized topic that is not of general interest, and many who write about it are, unfortunately, not up to date. >My daughter's 6th grade social studies >text... has on its >chapter on India, the AIT theory emblazoned across it >like the bunting of a long forgotten victory. One of my sons probably used the same book last year. But I wouldn't expect you to think this is the result of some current imperialist, colonial ideology that tries to portray India as inferior, as opposed to it being information that has not been brought up to date. >LGR's other remarks on "yugAnta" etc, imho, seem to be >a case of "Cherchez le Brahmin" mindset. Your reaction seems to prove my point. I would suggest that you read the following articles: Sharma, R. S. 1982. The Kali Age: A Period of Social Crisis. In India: History and Thought, Essays in Honour of A. L. Basham, ed. S. N. Mukherjee, 186-203. Calcutta: Subarnarekha. Dwivedi, R. K. 1977. A Critical Study of the Changing Social Order at Yuganta, or the End of the Kali Age: With Special Reference to the Mahabharata. In D. D. Kosambi Commemoration Volume, chief ed. Lallanji Gopal, 276-97. Varanasi: Banaras Hindu University. Regards, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Aug 7 17:25:46 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 10:25:46 -0700 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull (response to VS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060722.23782.2162978533487670216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although L. M. Fosse has already replied to some of Vidyasankar remarks on his post, I will also offer some comments as Vidyasankar was clearly referring to something I wrote. >Case in point - to say that something is Vedic, not Hindu, >presupposes a definition of what is Hindu. Now, what is the >Indological definition of "Hindu"? Is there even one commonly >accepted definition? If there is one, and if it does not accept >the notions the Indian people have about it now, you can expect >some immediate friction. So there is no point in being surprised >by the vehemence that some things evoke. Yes, like the response of Lakshmi Srinivas, who called it a Judeo-Christian (?) statement on my part. You are right that this has to do with how you define Hindu or Hinduism. And you are also right concerning the difficulty to define it. Several scholars have discussed this, such as Brian Smith. Many years ago Wendy Doniger came to the conclusion that for the Gupta period the best one could say to characterize a belief as Hindu was that it had to accept two things: 1. The authority of the Vedas, and 2. The existence of reincarnation. However, accepting the authority of the Vedas does not imply practicing the religion described in the Vedas. Therefore, it is standard scholarly procedure to make a distinction between Vedic literature and religion and post-Vedic literature and religion. This distinction is largely based on the religious practices reflected in the literature. On the post-Vedic side you have Hinduism (PurANic - ZAstric Hinduism if you prefer), Buddhism and Jainism (and other later traditions). I don't want to get into a discussion about this, but I assume you would agree that not many Hindus today would identify as Hinduism a religion that has: no RAma (no SItA) no KRSNa (no RadhA) no avatAras of ViSNu no HanumAn no GaNeza no KArttikeya no DurgA no KAlI no temples no yugas, manvantas or kalpas no strict vegetarianism no well-developed theory of reincarnation (especially in the early and middle Vedic periods) They surely would recognize many of the gods, but some of their roles and their importance would not be as familiar, and the gods would have no consorts (no LakshmI, no PArvatI), and no mounts (no GaruDa, no Nandin). And so on. Scholars usually use the term Hinduism in this way, but of course another term could be used. In fact, it is more and more common to refer to, for instance, PurANic religion, but this does not include as much as Hinduism. Maybe the problem is that we are mixing two levels of discourse here. On the academic level these distinctions are made because they are helpful and make sense, there is no implied attack on the beliefs of people who are Hindu. And this is the "register" in which I have used the terms. On a different level, for some Hindus who are not informed about these considerations, I think you are right to point out that this could be interpreted to mean something derogatory. This is especially true because today in India defining "Hinduness" is a major concern for many. The thing is that this list, as Dominik Wujastyk has tried to remind us over and over again, is meant to be an academic list, although it has often become a forum for introductory ideas and concepts. >Another example - all the professionals on this list know much >about the alliance of brAhmaNa and kshatriya in classical India. >However, to be very blunt about it, if you think this is obvious >to the modern Indian, or that it should be obvious, you are living >in an ivory tower. Why should professionals assume that it is obvious to the modern Indian? Professionals in the field of Biblical studies don't assume that modern Jews and Christians are well informed about (or accept) their research. >Consequently, the word "Brahminical" evokes no image of the >kshatriya contribution to Indian society, and creates a false >picture of Brahmin on one side and all the non-Brahmin castes >on the other - a very potent potion in the caste ridden politics >of India today. Brahminical, in the sense I used it, implies the varNa dharma. Would it sound different to you if I said dvija instead? But I agree that it is important to be aware of the impact the use of the term can have today. >To say that Indologists are by and large >interested only in the Rg Veda and the IVC, and not in British >colonial India, is to ignore how inseparably linked the two are >historically. I have more of a problem with this. If doctors in colonial India were imperial colonialists, does that mean that medicine and colonialism are inextricably linked? I think there is a lack of understanding here about what many contemporary Indologists do and who they are. This is where I imagine more diffusion could only help. >To simply assert that contemporary Indologists do >not subscribe to the assumptions of those who lived a hundred >years ago is not going to be believed, unless supported by proof. >And we are sufficiently wary, to insist that the proof of the >pudding be in the eating. What, according to this, would constitute proof? Rejecting every idea of previous Indologists? Many of them made very important contributions; one can decide what to accept and what to reject. Contemporary Indologists (such as Pollock) are writing about the biases of some previous scholars. It is important not to fall prey to conspiracy theories and absolute generalizations. Best regards, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 7 10:34:34 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 10:34:34 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060682.23782.12927670023885609188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >And we cannot willingly falsify or deny what we regard as the truth, no >matter how much this truth is abused and instrumentalized by some people in >South Asia. Is the record all that clean when it comes to Western history? Do white children in America study in their text books that their ancestors commited genocide on the native Indian population? Or do school books in Spain teach Spanish children about the genocide of the Incas by their ancestors? Or the brutalities inflicted on non-believers in the name of inquisition. The same applies for the Portuguese too. Do children in Netherlands realize that the wealth that they enjoy has left a bloody trail in Africa? Do children in Germany study that their countrymen not so long ago, did away with six million Jews? Or do Russian children know that Stalin killed as many or probably more? Or do English children know that their current wealth is a result of systematic loot of countries like India? The wealth that British citizens enjoy today is directly linked with the dire poverty of the people in India. Will a English child know for her to live comfortably as a citizen of a developed country, there're probably fifty children starving in India? Atleast in these cases there can be little negative effect politically - for all these countries committed these crimes on alien lands and fled with the loot or like in America there're no native Indians to protest against what had happened. Take the case of Britain - that that British brutalized the Celts and the Picts is well remembered by the affected peoples. But how well documented is this part of history in England? How well documented is the savagery let loose on the aborigines of England by sucessive bands of Saxons and Normans - the rapes, the pillages, the decapitations, the cultural repression? If this information in all its gory detail is taught in the schools of England, what effect do you think that this will have on the psyche of the English children? Will the English then be able to strut around claiming to be the torch bearers of civilization? And What do you think will the reaction of the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh be? The Scots and the Welsh would come out with their own form of the IRA! And London will burn! One could go on and on about the misdeeds of European nations. European history is unmatched for its barbarism. So where's the scholarly objectivity here, when it comes to telling what really happened? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Aug 7 08:45:36 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 10:45:36 +0200 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060677.23782.505635002114857167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan [SMTP:vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 7. august 2000 07:52: > Sure, but what irks many south Asians is that Indologists never seem to take > a stand about the ideological package that came with the old AIT theory, > even when they review it as simply past history. For example, it does not > seem to be very well known that part of the Tamil vs. Sinhala problem in Sri > Lanka is that the Sinhalese elite think of themselves as Aryans, and > therefore superior to the Dravidians who speak Tamil. Again, you are pointing at a real problem. I am well aware of this dilemma, and I have written about it elsewhere. The problem is not that we are unaware of the practical political problems that were born in the wake of the AIT. It is rather that Western Indologists like myself are convinced on the basis of the evidence that the invasion/migration (choose your term) actually took place. And we cannot willingly falsify or deny what we regard as the truth, no matter how much this truth is abused and instrumentalized by some people in South Asia. Instrumentalization of history is a wide-spread phenomenon - there is right now a large conference of historians in Oslo dealing with this problem on a world basis - but the duty of the historian is first and foremost to the truth. That politicians lie and manipulate is another matter, but if scholars start doing the same thing, they ruin their credibility and they deprive society of the one thing that real history is useful for: the chance to understand how historic forces work, so that we on the basis of humanity's common experience can make realistic and sensible choices for the future. Using historic events that took place 3-4000 years ago as an excuse for conducting chauvinistic or even criminal policies today is so absurd that you shouldn't need to rewrite history. It should be enough to point out that what counts are recent realities. Injustices or events that took place several hundred or thousands of years ago should have no bearing on modern politics. When the Baltic states received their independence a few years ago, all European countries impressed upon them the importance of treating the Russian minorities fairly, in spite of the fact that the Russians had been in the Baltic countries only for the last 50 years. Old-fashioned policies would have been to throw them out. But then Europeans have made their experiences with populations being shifted back and forth, not to mention terrorized and liquidated. Policies of superiority are not only morally reprehensible, they are unwise. The remnants of the > old ideologies that came with AIT continue to wreak havoc in south Asian > societies, but hardly anyone from the West seems to want to acknowledge > this. I would dispute that the AIT is the only factor that has wreaked havoc in South Asian societies. South Asian societies are beleaguered by a large number of problems, of which AIT-related problems are but a fraction. Most important are the economic and social realities of the South Asian countries. If you manage to solve those the "AIT problems" will probably cease to matter. To the extent that the AIT causes problems, it is because it is used as a symbol for mobilization. This is a common political trick, used whenever realities are highly complex and difficult to communicate to the masses. Every politician on earth knows this trick and uses it regularly. Instead of attacking the AIT, it would have been better to attack the underlying problems that make AIT based politics attractive to some. > But > I do think that Indologists often fail to understand what is happening in > Indian society today. Not too many years ago, there was a hilarious > discussion on this list. The issue was whether playing a drum with a leather > head compromised the brAhmaNa-by-birth status of a contemporary Indian > musician. Too much attention is paid to the long outdated manusmRti, and the > contemporary overtones of varNa and jAti in Indian society and politics are > ignored. Again I must disagree with you. Although I am not a social scientist, I have read quite a lot of political studies of South Asian politics by eminent scholars, some Indian and some Western. I don't think that they are unaware of what goes on, most of them read the Indian press on a daily basis (thanks to the Internet). Personally, I have four or five major Indian newspapers at my fingertips plus a couple of journals, although I must confess that I don't have the time to exploit this technological bonanza fully. Still, you may have a point: we are not enmeshed in Indian everyday realities and therefore do not have to deal with the daily problems that are so frustrating to many Indians. If we were, it might not necessarily change our analyses, but our emotions would probably be less detached. > >Among those involved in education policy in India, the > question is that of who gets political control. And if you notice, instead > of approaching the problem constructively, any debate on updating the > pedagogy ends up in accusations of being either a "communalist" or a > "Marxist". Between the two labels, there is no room for an honest > intellectual look at the problem. I realize that this is a problem in India's public debate. But I have found the Indian press more nuanced than you suggest, although I only know the English language press. How nuanced the vernacular press is, I couldn't tell. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Aug 7 15:51:51 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 11:51:51 -0400 Subject: Fw: Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam Message-ID: <161227060716.23782.13324996420167669966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/7/2000 9:09:07 AM Central Daylight Time, jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL writes: > This idea may strike us as an almost self-evident morally > praiseworthy statement, but if I am not mistaken it contrasts sharply with > the main stream dharmic tradition (with as best known example the > Manusm.rti) which only speaks of divisions and subdivisions of humanity > without presenting an explicit all-inclusive notion of humanity (N.B. such > notion was also missing in the ancient Greek world). This reminds me of a keynote lecture, "Is there an Indian Way of Thinking", by A. K. Ramanujan at Penn in 1980 during the meeting of the Society for South Indian Studies. His point was that Indian thinking was particularistic and not universalistic. Commenting on the lecture, I pointed out that what he said may be true of later Tamil worldview, but it was not applicable to the CT ideals. I paraphrased the contents of puRanAn2URu 189 and asked him to comment on it. He said he was not familiar with that poem. (I heard that later he went head and published his views anyway as an article.) For the current discussion, puRanAn2URu 192 by kaNiyan2 pUGkun2Ran2 in AKR's translation given below may be of some interest. Every Town a Home Town --------------------------------------------------------- Every town our home town, every man a kinsman, Good and evil do not come from others. Pain and relief of pain come of themselves. Dying is nothing new. We do not rejoice that life is sweet nor in anger call it bitter Our lives, however dear, follow their own course, rafts drifting in the rapids of a great river sounding and dashing over the rocks after a downpour from skies slashed by lightnings--- we know this from the vision of men who see. So, we are not amazed by the great and we do not scorn the little. ------kaNiyan2 pUGkun2Ran2 Regards S. Palaniappan From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 7 12:21:41 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 12:21:41 +0000 Subject: Nationalisms Message-ID: <161227060692.23782.954653930031906845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >No one claimed it was. Apparently, you read very selectively, since I have >been repeating the errors of Europeans and Westerners ad nauseam. Why talk of objective scholarship then? >I'll leave this to the Americans to answer. Evasion 1. >Again, I'll leave this to the Spanish or Portuguese members of the list. Evasion 2. >German bookstore are full of books on the holocaust. I don't know the >curriculum in German schools, but there is no lack of information about >Nazi history in German society. Those who are in denial for ideological >reasons are not so for lack of information. But do they teach of the holocaust in schools? Doesn't look like they've learnt anything from it, given the rising spectre of neo-nazism in the region. >Stalin's crimes were already denounced by Krustchev (pardon the probably >erronous spelling) in 1956. But you probably don't have to tell the >Russians about it in the schools. It is still within living memory. Living memory isn't enough. Is it publicly accepted? Is it in school books? >And that the Indians have had half a century to set things right? Is 50 years enough to set right 200 years of looting? In two hundred years all local industry had been decimated and the populace rendered illiterate and helpless. Caught in the vicious cycle of population + poverty + unemployment, is it that easy to recover? >If children are starving in Indian today, the British are not to blame. If you know your economics and sociology, you'll understand why the Brits are the root cause of the current misery in India. Plus as a parting gift they have left behind ideologies to divide the society. >The Indian politicians have to carry that responsibility themselves. This bunch themselves - most of them thugs - are a product of Brit cunning and Indian naivete. What meaning has democracy in a country where half the population is illiterate? >No protesting native Americans in America? Don't you read the papers? But what can they do about it? Nothing. Probably get more gambling rights for their reservations. Also see the attempts to prove that whites lived in America even before the Indians! I don't see anybody learning anything, accepting anything! >I'll leave this to the British members of the list. Evasion 3. >All this things are well known. Ever heard about Robin Hood and his merry >men fighting the evil Normans? But is that taught as serious history? Why not teach a serious version of it in English schools? >Are they making that claim? Oh, haven't you heard about the civilizational mission of the Empire? >As you would have noticed if you had read the papers, the Scots and the >Welsh have acquired a certain autonomy lately. And that the IRA are on the >verge of making peace. Let them learn their true history. Then see whether they'll settle for autonomy. >Every objection you raise only proves your ignorance. After evading most of my questions, you've the gall the make this statement. So typical! >Whether Europe is unmatched for barbarism is of course a matter of debate, >but I have certainly not claimed that we were pillars of uprightness. How can you, when there's hardly any ground for that claim! >I suggest that you do some serious reading - perhaps take a history course >- before you raise this sort of objections. Better heed your own advice. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From francisco.caravana at CLIX.PT Mon Aug 7 11:57:47 2000 From: francisco.caravana at CLIX.PT (Francisco Caravana) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 12:57:47 +0100 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060687.23782.8321605294393877638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Or do school books in Spain teach Spanish children about the > genocide of the Incas by their ancestors? Or the brutalities > inflicted on non-believers in the name of inquisition. The same As a Portuguese member of the list I must say that we do, from the 5th grade on (10-11 years of age) we learn about the "autos de f?" (burnings) the injustice of inquisition trials, the slave trade, the killing of whole cultures, the selling of indulgences by the catholic church (we are a mostly catholic country) etc.. etc... on our school history books. That did't happen before 1974, but then we had a fascist "nationalist" government. I don't think that it affects anyone's personality to know the truth, I didn't stop loving my country because of that. Francisco Caravana Portugal From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Aug 7 11:18:57 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 13:18:57 +0200 Subject: Nationalisms Message-ID: <161227060685.23782.1499492163605568640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran [SMTP:vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 7. august 2000 12:35: > Is the record all that clean when it comes to Western history? Noone claimed it was. Apparently, you read very selectively, since I have been repeating the errors of Europeans and Westerners ad nauseam. > Do white children in America study in their text books that their > ancestors commited genocide on the native Indian population? I'll leave this to the Americans to answer. > Or do school books in Spain teach Spanish children about the > genocide of the Incas by their ancestors? Or the brutalities > inflicted on non-believers in the name of inquisition. The same > applies for the Portuguese too. Again, I'll leave this to the Spanish or Portuguese members of the list. > Do children in Germany study that their countrymen not so long ago, > did away with six million Jews? German bookstore are full of books on the holocaust. I don't know the curriculum in German schools, but there is no lack of information about Nazi history in German society. Those who are in denial for ideological reasons are not so for lack of information. > Or do Russian children know that Stalin killed as many or probably > more? Stalin's crimes were already denounced by Krustchev (pardon the probably erronous spelling) in 1956. But you probably don't have to tell the Russians about it in the schools. It is still within living memory. > Or do English children know that their current wealth is a result of > systematic loot of countries like India? The wealth that British > citizens enjoy today is directly linked with the dire poverty of the > people in India. Will a English child know for her to live comfortably as a > citizen of a developed country, there're probably fifty children starving in > India? This is at best a simplification of matters. Or have you overlooked the fact that India has a runaway demography? And that the Indians have had half a century to set things right? If children are starving in Indian today, the British are not to blame. The Indian politicians have to carry that responsibility themselves. > Atleast in these cases there can be little negative effect politically > - for all these countries committed these crimes on alien lands and > fled with the loot or like in America there're no native Indians to > protest against what had happened. No protesting native Americans in America? Don't you read the papers? > Take the case of Britain - that that British brutalized the Celts and > the Picts is well remembered by the affected peoples. But how well > documented is this part of history in England? I'll leave this to the British members of the list. >How well documented is > the savagery let loose on the aborigines of England by sucessive bands > of Saxons and Normans - the rapes, the pillages, the decapitations, the > cultural repression? All this things are well known. Ever heard about Robin Hood and his merry men fighting the evil Normans? > If this information in all its gory detail is taught in the schools of > England, what effect do you think that this will have on the psyche of > the English children? Will the English then be able to strut around > claiming to be the torch bearers of civilization? Are they making that claim? > And What do you think will the reaction of the Scots, the Irish and the > Welsh be? The Scots and the Welsh would come out with their own form of > the IRA! And London will burn! As you would have noticed if you had read the papers, the Scots and the Welsh have acquired a certain autonomy lately. And that the IRA are on the verge of making peace. > One could go on and on about the misdeeds of European nations. European > history is unmatched for its barbarism. So where's the scholarly > objectivity here, when it comes to telling what really happened? Every objection you raise only proves your ignorance. Whether Europe is unmatched for barbarism is of course a matter of debate, but I have certainly not claimed that we were pillars of uprightness. I suggest that you do some serious reading - perhaps take a history course - before you raise this sort of objections. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From francisco.caravana at CLIX.PT Mon Aug 7 13:33:28 2000 From: francisco.caravana at CLIX.PT (Francisco Caravana) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 14:33:28 +0100 Subject: truth is god Message-ID: <161227060697.23782.3261213366850096556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Myabe I should rephrase my statement: "I don't think that it affects anyone's personality [in a negative way] to know the truth, I didn't stop loving my country because of that." The nearer you are from the truth the further you are from Maayaa. In that way , maybe truth is god , if we see moksha as the elimination of maayaa and union with the purusha. Therefore the seeker-finder of truth becoming god ,and truth being god in itself. [I'm only 18 and a regular kid if i'm saying an abomination don't shoot me on the spot :) I'm here to learn.] Francisco Caravana Portugal ----- Original Message ----- From: Rajesh Kochhar To: Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 1:26 PM Subject: truth is god > Mahatma Gandhi modified the well-known saying God is truth to make a > profound statement. If we adhere to truth, then we shall become a role model > and source of strength to other truth-seekers. > Rajesh Kochhar > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Prof Rajesh Kochhar > Director > National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies > Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 > ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 > altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com > web site http://nistads.res.in > -----Original Message----- > From: Francisco Caravana > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Date: Monday, August 07, 2000 5:31 PM > Subject: Re: SV: Rajaram's bull > > > >> Or do school books in Spain teach Spanish children about the > >> genocide of the Incas by their ancestors? Or the brutalities > >> inflicted on non-believers in the name of inquisition. The same > > > > > >As a Portuguese member of the list I must say that we do, from the 5th > grade > >on (10-11 years of age) we learn about the "autos de f?" (burnings) the > >injustice of inquisition trials, the slave trade, the killing of whole > >cultures, the selling of indulgences by the catholic church (we are a > mostly > >catholic country) etc.. etc... on our school history books. > > > >That did't happen before 1974, but then we had a fascist "nationalist" > >government. > > > >I don't think that it affects anyone's personality to know the truth, I > >didn't stop loving my country because of that. > > > >Francisco Caravana > > > >Portugal > From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Aug 7 13:42:23 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 14:42:23 +0100 Subject: Rajaram's PILTDOWN horse Message-ID: <161227060699.23782.8690649255450166950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Whoa ! Hold your horses ! The "What you see is (on the computer screen) is what you get (on the printed page" is a skillfully created illusion created courtesy of computer engineers. One of the reasons that this is an illusion is simply because the video screen has a resolution of about 100 dots per inch, while the low end desktop printer today does at least 300 dots per inch. Try scanning in and displaying on computer screen a group photograph with lots of small faces in which every face appears clear to you on the print version, and you will understand better what the above means. The accusation of fraud against Rajaram is well-justified based on the scanned evidence presented here. I would not base a conviction on anything but the printed evidence, however. -arun gupta From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Mon Aug 7 13:33:49 2000 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 15:33:49 +0200 Subject: SV: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060707.23782.9088118846838123933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, why not rename the thread? (Dirty whites, European imperialism, Indology & ideology or whatever.) That would make it easier for others to read what they want. ZAntiH, Ferenc From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Aug 7 14:08:19 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 16:08:19 +0200 Subject: Fw: Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam Message-ID: <161227060702.23782.11801971425805240885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Original query of this little thread: Vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam (according to B.A. Hatcher's 1994 article a "problematic mantra of hindu humanism"): does it or does it not occur in any other ancient/classical Sanskrit (not to speak of Vedic) text except the Hitopadesa 1.3 -- where this phrase is used in a mean and deceitful way? With the messages of Vishal Agarwal (attached below) and Peter Freund (this List, last Saturday) are we perhaps finally getting at a somewhat more ancient occurrence of the phrase? (so far no certain occurrence earlier than ca. beginning of second millennium CE when it apparently became quite popular) Madhav Deshpande's reference to an old Marathi version (first half second millennium CE?) may further illustrate the popularity of the idea expressed in Vasudhaiva ... This idea may strike us as an almost self-evident morally praiseworthy statement, but if I am not mistaken it contrasts sharply with the main stream dharmic tradition (with as best known example the Manusm.rti) which only speaks of divisions and subdivisions of humanity without presenting an explicit all-inclusive notion of humanity (N.B. such notion was also missing in the ancient Greek world). The only exception more or less within the Brahminical fold is perhaps Saa.mkhya, cf. Saa.mkhyaKaarikaa 53 on the creation: a.s.tavikalpo daivas tairyagyonaz ca pancadhaa bhavati / maanu.syaz caikavidha.h ... A commentary explicitly includes here the caa.n.daala or 'outcast'. Tension between Saa.mkhya and orthodox Brahmanism is evident in many Mahaabhaarata episodes. The Mahopani.sad seems to be a text of Vai.s.nava orientation (not a "major Upani.sad" despite its name) which presents its teaching in a highly Saa.mkhya-oriented terminology; As for its Vedic status: absent according L.M. Fosse's recent definition: >>I wouldn't venture to give a definition of a Hindu, but Vedic does have a >>definition. It refers to a literature where the subjunctive is still a >>living grammatical category. In other words: the four Vedas, the Brahmanas >>and the oldest (13) upanishads, plus the concomitant sutras. See also the observations of Valerie J. Roebuck yesterday. I did find the verse with a slightly different beginning as Mahop. 6.71 in the MLBD volume "Upanishatsamgraha": aya.m bandhur aya.m neti ga.nanaa ... vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam; if the Mahopani.sad is indeed referred to by Ramanuja (see attached message below), it must be earlier than 11th century, may be with one or more centuries? There is one problem, however. The Mahopani.sad occurs in P. Deussen's 60 Upani.sads of the Veda (p. 743 of original German edition), but is there much shorter than in the MLBD volume. The first verses are similar, but the verse with vasudhaiva ... is missing. So we still don't know whether Ramanuja was familiar with a version of the Mahop. which comprised the verse. (Deussen records that the Mahop. was part of the 17th century Oupnekhat translation into Persian; it is also in a list by Colebrooke and in a list by Naaraaya.na.) Date of the Yogav. Mahaaraamaaya.na? According to Peter Thomi's index a verse starting aya.m bandhur aya.m neti occurs 5.18.61, but its final paada is vigataavara.naivadhii.h. In the Laghu-Yogav. however, a verse similar to Mahop. 6.71 occurs as 5.2.62. Thanks, and best wishes, Jan Houben -----Forwarded Message----- From: Vishal Agarwal To: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Date: Friday, August 04, 2000 4:55 PM Subject: Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam >The phrase occurs in > >1. Mahopanishad 5.72 >The Upanishad (though not this particular verse) is quoted in the Vedartha >Samgraha of Shri Ramanujacharya and therefore predates him. > >I have also seen it in Yogavasishtha Maharamayana and had sent the reference >to Dr. Elst a few days back. However, I am unable to find it now and suggest >that you contact him (in case he has saved it). It will be a few weeks >before I could go to the library and find it again for you. You may forward >the message to the Indology list if you wish. > >Sincerely, > >Vishal Agarwal >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Aug 7 15:09:42 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 16:09:42 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060714.23782.1446364497734074922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: > Do children in Germany study that their countrymen not so long ago, > did away with six million Jews? Yes, they do. > Take the case of Britain - that that British brutalized the Celts and > the Picts is well remembered by the affected peoples. Hhhm ! Who are these "British" you refer to ? At the time you seem to be alluding to, the Celts and probably the Picts WERE the British ! It was the Romans (who you omit from your catalogue of oppressors) who initially suppressed the Celts in the province of Britannia. The Picts suffered at the hands of both the Romans and the invading Scots from Ireland. In many of their conquered territories, the Romans acted much as the Nazis did in Europe -- after the Boudiccan uprising in the 1st century CE, the Romans crucified over 40,000 people. I often suspect that the many examples of cruelty of which later Europeans are guilty derives from the legacy of Roman culture via the power structure of Christianity. > But how well documented is this part of history in England? Quit well if one bothers to look. > How well documented is > the savagery let loose on the aborigines of England by sucessive bands > of Saxons and Normans - the rapes, the pillages, the decapitations, the > cultural repression? Again, quite well documented but note that the inhabitants of the British Isles at that time were also not "aborigines" -- they (the Celts) in their turn were invading colonists who wiped out the earlier inhabitants who in their turn were new-comers. I also surprised that you do not mention our friends the Vikings. Your suggestion of cultural repression in the case of the Saxons may be over-stated -- it has been well known for a long time that there was an eventual synthesis of Celtic and Saxon culture as can be seen in the decorative art in the Lindisfarne Gospels and elsewhere. The Normans were probably responsible for greater repression than the Saxons. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Mon Aug 7 14:12:00 2000 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 16:12:00 +0200 Subject: Harappan animal icons/inscriptions Message-ID: <161227060710.23782.3591055003152285054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer suggested, that on Indus seals >the *inscription* refers to a general classification -- >that is, to a profession, rank, sub-clan, or other >social category -- but *not* to a personal name. The >discovery of two such "ID tags" in the same place >could, on this view, be easily explained by the presence >in that place of two members of the same rank or profession >(identified by the inscription) but from different clans or >places of origin (symbolized by the quasi-totemic animal icon). I think there is nothing impossible or improbable in two persons of different tribes having identical names. You can have [in principle] a Lame Deer of the Sioux and of the Apache. On the other hand the texts probably cannot be names of professions - there are simply too many different words. If they are not just free text (like a family or personal motto), they should be names, I think. But not necessarily personal names: they might as well be clan or sub-clan names, or even designations of small areas/willages. ------ In the argument Farmer mentions as crucial evidence >two seals found in John >Marshall, _Mohenjodaro and the Indus Civilization_, >1931, Vol. III, Plate CIX #252 and Plate CXII #378. The original link to this location was found at >the final footnote >(p. 27, n. 25) of the introduction of Mahadevan's work. Now Mahadevan in fact writes: "The two sides of 1252 (MIC 252 and 378) have the same text but different field symbols." So according to Mahadevan they are not two objects at all, but two sides of the *same* seal. Can somebody check? If it is really one object, then one text (the *single* owner's - name???) can have two animals - two affiliations? A maternal and a paternal descent? A tribe and a position (e.g. in the king's service - the ubiquitous unicorn)? Ferenc Ruzsa From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Aug 8 00:28:44 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 17:28:44 -0700 Subject: Harappan animal icons/inscriptions Message-ID: <161227060729.23782.18171843492603290990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote: > >In light of what we've already found, Ferenc, does *any* evidence > >remain of "different animals/same inscription" on separate seals? Ferenc Ruzsa answered: > I do not know - as we found, Mahadevan's identifications of the depicted > creatures can sometimes be misleading. But I have no other material - so here > is what I found there (just a sample, there may be others): four different > texts, always on seals (the last one on seal impression), each appearing with > the "unicorn", but also with some other animal as well. > Ferenc lists candidates from Mahadevan's Concordance, and adds: > Steve, have you overlooked it ? I have actually sent you this off-list, on > 02.08. I do have this List, many already checked out by M. Witzel or me. I'll doublecheck the data using all the sources I now have at hand. As of now, despite Mahadevan's Concordance, no violations of the "same animal/same inscription" rule have turned up that I know about. Marshall 252/378 doesn't exactly qualify, as you've suggested. I'll keep looking. > >do you think that the number of > >duplicates of inscriptions on the "bossed" seals argue against the > >personal name thesis, as I conjectured? > > I do not have the relevant statistics yet - just a strong visual impression, > and of course that can be pretty much misleading. I think that the > overwhelming majority of the texts appear only once; BUT if you have a > duplicate, chances are high that you find a third one - even as many as > twenty. But it seems that the really long series are from tablets: copper in > Mohenjo-daro, stone, terracotta or faience in Harappa. > Perhaps someone else knows more about it? The data do seem interesting and > relevant. I'll see if I can find more too, as soon as I have time. Steve Farmer From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Aug 8 00:32:36 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 17:32:36 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's bull/Hindutva (response to BhG) In-Reply-To: <398D93DB.74B4@del3.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227060732.23782.9158536187441127702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:35 PM 08/06/2000 +0000, Bharat Gupt wrote: >The colonial era created a more restrictive and lexical definitions both of Brahminism >and the Hindu by restricting them to mean only those who accept the Vedas and Upanishads >as revelation. Whereas historically, Buddhists, Jains, Shaivs etc had all accepted the >var.na system... In the first part of your statement you refer to accepting the Vedas as revelation, but then you mention Buddhism and Jainism and instead of continuing to talk about whether the Vedas are considered as revealed or not you talk about the varNas. I assume you are not saying that Buddhists and Jains accept the Vedas as revealed texts. Best wishes, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU Mon Aug 7 07:46:13 2000 From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 17:46:13 +1000 Subject: agnikunda Message-ID: <161227060673.23782.6357785986514015918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd very much appreciate any information on the use of the Sanskrit term "agnikuNDa". Monier-Williams identifies it as "a pan with live coals" and "a hole or enclosed space for the consecrated fire" and a Hindi dictionary calls it "a havan kuND", but these definitions don't say whether or not the word is a recognised technical term for an implement or feature in the Vedic sacrifice. Richard Barz Australian National University Canberra From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Mon Aug 7 12:26:11 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 17:56:11 +0530 Subject: truth is god Message-ID: <161227060690.23782.18163983382647600488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mahatma Gandhi modified the well-known saying God is truth to make a profound statement. If we adhere to truth, then we shall become a role model and source of strength to other truth-seekers. Rajesh Kochhar ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -----Original Message----- From: Francisco Caravana To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Monday, August 07, 2000 5:31 PM Subject: Re: SV: Rajaram's bull >> Or do school books in Spain teach Spanish children about the >> genocide of the Incas by their ancestors? Or the brutalities >> inflicted on non-believers in the name of inquisition. The same > > >As a Portuguese member of the list I must say that we do, from the 5th grade >on (10-11 years of age) we learn about the "autos de f?" (burnings) the >injustice of inquisition trials, the slave trade, the killing of whole >cultures, the selling of indulgences by the catholic church (we are a mostly >catholic country) etc.. etc... on our school history books. > >That did't happen before 1974, but then we had a fascist "nationalist" >government. > >I don't think that it affects anyone's personality to know the truth, I >didn't stop loving my country because of that. > >Francisco Caravana > >Portugal From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Tue Aug 8 02:28:54 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 19:28:54 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's bull (response to LS) Message-ID: <161227060734.23782.4697283906931623520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > A few remarks on Lakshmi Srinivas' comments on what > I wrote. I'm afraid the point of my earlier post was partially or wholly missed. You wrote on 8.3.2000 >> Much of the current attack on "Western" Indology >> seems to be part of a strategy that aims at >> defending Brahminical traditions and >> institutions ... The object was to show that Hindutva has to do with appropriation of political power in *modern India*, not with a return to an ancient India or to some brahminical tradition. 'Scholarly' Hindutva is its ideological counterpart. But it is frankly absurd to think that a turn of the Christian Era text (or its modern deconstruction) can unravel or even throw light on a phenomenon such as Hindutva which is grounded primarily in post Independence political and intellectual atmosphere obtaining in India even if it has its proper antecedents in the colonial era. All nationalist or for that matter chauvinist doctrines require an ethnic, religious or linguistic "other" to focus on. Beyond that there's no resemblance between the "yugAnta" doctrine and the current Hindutva articulation. The "yugAnta" doctrine may have been Brahminical in inspiration. But in extrapolating an untenable parallelism to modern Hindutva, an undue primacy is attributed to brahmins and 'brahminical institutions' in the Hindutva universe which is clearly not consistent with ground realities. BTW, what on earth does the term 'Brahminical institutions' mean in the context of modern India? While this undue preoccupation with brahmins is endemic to Indology and is understandable in view of the nature of its sources viz., purely textual, one does not have to necessarily accept it in the analysis of a modern Indian phenomenon, no matter what the 'register' and the 'discourse' might have been. Primarily because the parallelism seems to be hardly valid. Incidentally, the point of refering to Trautmann etc was incidentally to show that just as there are good theories and bad ones, there are good *western Indologists* as there are bad ones. I wouldn't essentialize "western Indologists" as a category which some on this thread give the impression of doing, as indeed Rajaram and his band of fellow travelers do but in the opposite sense. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Mon Aug 7 14:27:15 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 19:57:15 +0530 Subject: Rajaram's bull In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060712.23782.17599005324268683772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, nanda chandran wrote: > Is the record all that clean when it comes to Western history? > Do children in Germany study that their countrymen not so long ago, > did away with six million Jews? Yes, they do. Denial of the holocaust is a federal crime in Germany and is punishable with imprisonment for up to five years, and almost 10,000 people are prosecuted each year in Germany. Some people spend their lives in prison for denying the holocaust - ( ref. http://nationaljournal.org/e2000/persecutions/roeder.htm http://nationaljournal.org/gd4-e.htm http://nationaljournal.org/e99/persecutions/tobentrial-e.htm ) > Do white children in America study in their text books that their > ancestors commited genocide on the native Indian population? Yes, they do. Read David Duke's book, `My Awakening' ( extracts at http://www.duke.org ). The term `White Guilt' perhaps best sums up the modern teaching curriculum which is now against European Imperialism. Regards, Samar From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 7 21:11:12 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 21:11:12 +0000 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull (response to VS) Message-ID: <161227060725.23782.972991263964905485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Brahminical, in the sense I used it, implies the varNa dharma. Would it >sound different to you if I said dvija instead? But I agree that it is >important to be aware of the impact the use of the term can have today. > The only problem is that terminology has different meanings for different people at different places and times. We come back to the pratijnA here - popularization and a better dissemination of Indological words and concepts to a wider audience, consisting predominantly of Indians, with all their contemporary concerns. Perhaps the word varNa and its derivatives should be used to denote the larger phenomenon in society, rather than Brahminical. The word dvija means almost nothing to the general Indian ear nowadays. Re: Lars Martin Fosse's comments, I quite agree that the academic scholar should not compromise on facts, for fear of what impact it may or may not have on society. Perhaps the only point I want to emphasize is that the scholar should at least be aware of what impact it may have, and take it into account in the manner of delivery, not in the content of what is delivered. As for the nuanced nature of the reports of controversies like ICHR in India, everything depends on the individual journalist and editor. There are some vernacular papers that present reports that are as balanced or even better analyzed than English language ones. And there are also sensationalist accounts, designed to incite, mostly by authors who submit to remote control from elsewhere. I would second Ferenc's suggestion to change the name of the thread, but to a nicer sounding one! Very few Indians on this list subscribe to the "dirty whites" ideology. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 8 03:08:55 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 00 23:08:55 -0400 Subject: hard to find (?) book Message-ID: <161227060736.23782.13278970058924573306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am very sorry to trouble this list with this, which must be a= stupid question, but: I want to see the following: Indica et Tibetica series 19. Nagarjuna's Ratnavali. Vol. 2. Die Ratnavalitika des Ajitamitra. Herausgegeben und erl=E4utert von Yukihiro Okada. Bonn 1990. xxxv, 198 S. DM 64,00. ISBN 3-923776- 19-5 But in all the databases available to me this book appears nowhere, and thus I cannot order it by ILL. What am I doing wrong (Alan??) Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Aug 8 04:56:37 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 00:56:37 -0400 Subject: Indian Govt's stand on AI... you know what Message-ID: <161227060740.23782.2065242686024815557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is the so call hindu govts stand on ancient indian history. Ther has been much ado about the contents of the sword of truth website. I would lke to remind members that I was the first person to draw attantion to this site on this list to get another sample reading of rajarams. I knew fully well the the paranoid reactionary rhetoric that it would draw from the indology crowd. It is simply a right wing article and does not connote some brahmanical conspiracy to take over the world. Maybe the title "sword of truth is too melodramatic" but its cotents are nothing more than run of the mill rhetoric which is quite common and natural for a populace which needs to vent its feelings in response to terrorist attacks, uneducated politicians and whatever else. Right wingers in the US are much less surreptitious/uninhibited, draw far less flak and dont have to resort to sites like sword of truth. No country in the world faces such a terrorist threat as india. Russia went to war because some apts were bombed. The indian govt is negotiating with the hizb mujahideen after the recent massacre of hindus. There was a confidence building cricket match between the army and the militants. Now there are some signs of the talks failing and a lot of posturing. Its an ongoing joke if anything. RB From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Mon Aug 7 23:43:08 2000 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 01:43:08 +0200 Subject: Harappan animal icons/inscriptions Message-ID: <161227060727.23782.15954762467931954989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer writes: >In light of what we've already found, Ferenc, does *any* evidence >remain of "different animals/same inscription" on separate seals? I do not know - as we found, Mahadevan's identifications of the depicted creatures can sometimes be misleading. But I have no other material - so here is what I found there (just a sample, there may be others): four different texts, always on seals (the last one on seal impression), each appearing with the "unicorn", but also with some other animal as well. (Mahadevan) (animal) (Original publication) 4033 1.0.01.01 (unicorn) EH (Vats 1940) vol II. pl. LXXXV-CI 33. 4128 1.0.01.01 (unicorn) EH vol II. pl. LXXXV-CI 128. 1339 1.0.03.01 (humped bull) MIC (Marshall 1931) vol III. pl. CIII-CXV 339. ----- 2346 1.0.00.01 (no animal) FEM (Mackay 1937-38) vol II. pl. LXXXII-XCIX 346. 4133 1.0.01.01 (unicorn) EH vol II. pl. LXXXV-CI 133. 1542 1.0.04.01 (bison) MIC vol III. pl. CIII-CXV 542. ----- 1388 1.0.01.01 (unicorn) MIC vol III. pl. CIII-CXV 388. 2280 1.0.03.01 (humped bull) FEM vol II. pl. LXXXII-XCIX 280. ----- 2444 1.0.01.01 (unicorn) FEM vol II. pl. LXXXII-XCIX 444. 2864 2.1/2.36.01 (gharial - on both sides) FEM vol II. pl. CII 10. (Steve, have you overlooked it ? I have actually sent you this off-list, on 02.08.) >do you think that the number of >duplicates of inscriptions on the "bossed" seals argue against the >personal name thesis, as I conjectured? I do not have the relevant statistics yet - just a strong visual impression, and of course that can be pretty much misleading. I think that the overwhelming majority of the texts appear only once; BUT if you have a duplicate, chances are high that you find a third one - even as many as twenty. But it seems that the really long series are from tablets: copper in Mohenjo-daro, stone, terracotta or faience in Harappa. Perhaps someone else knows more about it? The data do seem interesting and relevant. Ferenc Ruzsa From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Tue Aug 8 06:21:31 2000 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 02:21:31 -0400 Subject: Indologist's India Message-ID: <161227060746.23782.17106678822738378791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I write in support of Rajesh Kochar's posting today that Indologists have created a certain kind and type of ancient India, an Asiatic Society type of ancient India. Those of us who read the agamas more than the nigamas, and study folk rather than classical art, do not seem to fall into that trap. Harsha V. Dehejia From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Aug 8 09:24:10 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 02:24:10 -0700 Subject: "Horse Seal" - New Data Message-ID: <161227060760.23782.586972136391173200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the past week, M. Witzel and I turned up quite a bit new evidence on the "horse seal" fiasco. Below - in what I hope is the *last* post I ever have to make on this topic - I append an updated webpage that covers the whole story from beginning to end as we now understand it. http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html I had hoped that it wouldn't be necessary to say *anything* more about the topic, but Rajaram continues to angrily defend the veracity of the seal - and to threaten those who have debunked it. Hopefully, posting all the new evidence will put the seal permanently to rest. Rajaram claims to be a scientist; let's see if he repudiates his claims in the face of overwhelming evidence before the Indian press picks up on the story. M. Witzel will soon have much more to say on the Jha/Rajaram "decipherment" issue, so the update doesn't cover this issue. Update highlights: 1. Positive identification (through the Mohenjo-daro field numbers - 6664) has been made of the ORIGINAL SEAL that created the faded impression (Mackay 453) that Rajaram claims as evidence. The photo of the original seal in Asko Parpola's magnificent two-volume _Corpus of Indus Seals and Inscriptions_ (remarkably, not used by Rajaram) is *exceptionally* crisp, sending the horse seal story permanently out to pasture. Asko Parpola himself has weighed in, via emails to M. Witzel, providing data on how the original was photographed by his team in Pakistan. Prof. Parpola also confirms the obvious: That the original of the "horse seal" is a unicorn bull seal broken off about where the genitals should be. 2. Photos of "telephone feeding troughs" are shown to help test Professor Vassilkov's interesting suggestion about the strangely familiar object that appears at the bottom right of the "computer enhancement" of the seal -- but not in the original. What can't be doubted, as Dr. Vassilkov first pointed out, is that *something* shows up in Rajaram's reproduction that IS NOT found in the original. How it got there remains a mystery. 3. A beautiful image of a unicorn (with genitals) is provided with instructions on how to create a convincing "horse seal" of your own through a "index-finger genital" test. Interestingly, the results are much more convincing than the claimed "horse seal." 4. Some background on the "horse seal" question is provided at the start. And with that, I retire from the "horse seal" profession and get back to my own work, long overdue. Please email me directly about any glaring errors on the webpage. http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html My best, Steve Farmer From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 8 06:42:25 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 06:42:25 +0000 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060742.23782.6795996101583506162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >As a Portuguese member of the list I must say that we do, from the 5th >grade >on (10-11 years of age) we learn about the "autos de f?" (burnings) the >injustice of inquisition trials, the slave trade, the killing of whole >cultures, the selling of indulgences by the catholic church (we are a >mostly >catholic country) etc.. etc... on our school history books. What the Portugese did is not possible to deny - It is in the records of so many of the affected peoples as well as the Portugese themselves. Plus it only happened within the last two centuries, so it is fresh in the memories of many peoples, including the Portugese. But this is not the case with the so called invasion by the Aryans. How can ruins as old as four millenea act as solid fool proof evidence? Neither the so called Aryans nor Dravidians remember any such thing, nor is it clearly evident in their respective literatures. Given the nature of this evidence, what make this theory valid enough to be taught in schools? Recently there's been a huge furore about the absence of horses in the IVC. If there was indeed a Dravidian civilization which was destroyed in a war, how come there're no corpses of horses of the invading Aryans? Are we to assume that in the battle no horses were killed? Early Tamil literature attests to the warlike nature of the Tamils. Were they so docile that they did not even kill one horse of the invading Aryans? When the Haraappan script itself lies undeciphered on what basis is the IVC portrayed as a Dravidian civilization? Also if IVC was indeed destroyed by an invasion, how do we know that it was Aryans who were responsible for that? How do we know that it was not another warlike tribe from another part of Asia or Europe? And why should the lack of horses be taken as an important factor to negate the presence of Aryans in the IVC? How do we know horses were always used in the Aryan society? Is it because horses are mentioned in the Rg Veda? But why could it not be that Aryans lived in IVC but didn't have horses initially and horses were later brought in by merchants from Mesapotamia or other civilizations? And it was after this that the horse acquired an important place in the Aryan society and it was only then that the Rg Veda was composed. Why couldn't this have happened? According to a report in a San Francisco newspaper which I read with surprise some time back, Aryans came into India, overpowered the Dravidians, took their women and property. If this was so how did Dravidians move down South and establish their own kingdoms? Why did not the Aryan kings invade them again and take over these kingdoms too? If Aryans were warlike why is there a lack of interest on part of Aryan kings in countries outside Aryavrta? If they were warlike why did they not attack the Persians and the Chinese? If Aryans initially took women from the Dravidians, why did they suddenly stop this practice on the grounds of purity of race? Where's the logic in that, given that from time immemorial, from the ancient Dharma Shaastrams to the present day, Brahmins generally do not marry outside their society. Some of the earliest of Tamil literature mentions Brahmins and they're referred to only in their religious capacity. Plus also what kind of evidence is there in Tamil literature regarding any invasion? If an Aryan invasion did happen why did the Dravidians never write about it? And where's there any evidence in Tamil literature regarding a homeland for Tamils anywhere outside Tamil Nadu? Even today Tamils talk of "Tamilagam" - Tamil Nation and "Tamizh munn" - Tamil earth. So if they were originally from the north, why did they forget their original homeland? Again if the Aryans were warlike, how did they become docile as we see Brahmins of late? Take the current blatant discrimination against the Tamil Brahmins in Tamil Nadu, by the Dravidian movement which is a prime example of facism. Contrary to the popular belief that Brahmins are wealthy, many Brahmins were sunk in poverty and in the face of blatant discrimination had a very tough time even surviving. In such circumstances how many societies would keep quiet if they were deliberately deprived of education or job opportunities. Did the Tamils keep quiet in Sri Lanka? On the other hand what was the reaction of Tamil Brahmins - was there even one single incident where Brahmins have reacted violently against the deliberate discrimination against them? In contrast even a couple of weeks back a poor Brahmin gurukkal was assaulted by thugs of the Dravidar Kazhagam in Mylapore in Chennai. Does this fit the picture of aggressive Aryans and docile, cultured Dravidians? How many of these questions can be answered with solid, irrefutable evidence? Where is the "truth" here which Dr.Rajesh Kochar seems to see? When the incident seperates us by four millenea and there's little hard evidence, what's the necessity for such speculation? When there's so much left unanswered, what warrants the interpretation of Indian history the way it is? Why is the invasion theory taken as the holy grail and taught in schools? Why should a positive interpretation of history favorable to the people of India not be done? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue Aug 8 06:44:38 2000 From: martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Martin Bemmann) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 08:44:38 +0200 Subject: hard to find (?) book Message-ID: <161227060744.23782.8323483793770309188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Check the metasearch of Karlsruhe University: http://www.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/hylib/en/kvk.html You will find it. Regards -- Martin Bemmann Heidelberg Academy for the Humanities and Sciences >Rock Carvings and Inscriptions along the Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 - D-69117 Heidelberg Germany mailto:martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~u71/kara/welcome.html From rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU Tue Aug 8 08:00:06 2000 From: rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU (Ramani T. Kandiah) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 09:00:06 +0100 Subject: Rajaram's bull & Nanda chandran's bully Message-ID: <161227060749.23782.14575435837556813983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "nanda chandran" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 1:42 AM Subject: Re: SV: Rajaram's bull > > Some of the earliest of Tamil literature mentions > Brahmins and they're referred to only in their religious capacity. Plus > also what kind of evidence is there in Tamil literature regarding any > invasion? If an Aryan invasion did happen why did the Dravidians never > write about it? And where's there any evidence in Tamil literature > regarding a homeland for Tamils anywhere outside Tamil Nadu? Even today > Tamils talk of "Tamilagam" - Tamil Nation and "Tamizh munn" - Tamil > earth. Dear the one and only aura holding enlighten one, it is not munn, but maN. >So if they were originally from the north, why did they forget > their original homeland? > Again if the Aryans were warlike, how did they become docile as we see > Brahmins of late? Take the current blatant discrimination against > the Tamil Brahmins in Tamil Nadu, by the Dravidian movement which is a > prime example of facism. Contrary to the popular belief that Brahmins are > wealthy, many Brahmins were sunk in poverty and in the face of blatant > discrimination had a very tough time even surviving. In such circumstances > how many societies would keep quiet if they were deliberately deprived of > education or job opportunities. Did the Tamils keep quiet in Sri Lanka? On > the other hand what was the reaction of Tamil Brahmins - was there even one > single incident where Brahmins have reacted violently against the deliberate > discrimination against them? In contrast even a couple of weeks back a poor > Brahmin gurukkal was assaulted by thugs of the Dravidar Kazhagam in Mylapore > in Chennai. Being a non-TamilNadu Tamil, I can not speak for Tamilnadu. However, I will be happy if you could respond. While agreeing that DK is not a friend of Brahmins, I will be happy if you could prove the above 'incident' you have stated. Noone claims that Tamil Brahmins are rich, but the issue is how they manipulate the state. I do not complain about every brahmin in TamilNadu, but a powerful brahmin elite (From media to mutt) controls, and still acts. >Does this fit the picture of aggressive Aryans and docile, > cultured Dravidians? >?From time to time, in this list, you have shown your ignorance and unreasonable hatred against Tamils. However, when you ask, "Did the Tamils keep quiet in Sri Lanka?," I can say only one thing; "It is wise NOT commenting on something when one does not know anything." Thus, a humble suggestion to your excellency. Why don't you restrict yourself within the topic in hand, rather than dragging innocent parties for your mudslinging parties? Above everything, criticising Tamils will not make any sex change in Dr. Rajaram's horse's genitals. Thank you very much for understanding, if you have lent ears. (I believe, I. Mahadevan is also a Tamil Brahmin;-)) regards, R.- From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Aug 8 09:05:00 2000 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 10:05:00 +0100 Subject: hacker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060764.23782.2107804080911577553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Can anyone tell me if Paul Hacker's monogram, "Untersuchungen uber Texte des fruhen Advaitavada has ever been translated into English and if so, where. Thanks, John Grimes From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Tue Aug 8 04:40:48 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 10:10:48 +0530 Subject: text is god Message-ID: <161227060738.23782.8537776792823074759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If an Indian from 1500 years ago were to come alive today,would he recognize that we are talking about him and his times. I suspect we are getting obsessed with the indologists' India, an Asiatic Society type of ancient India.Surely there was a tradition of truth,ethics, common sense, belonging to the field India. May be, moulded and influenced by the texts, but self-supportig and autonomous. Rajesh Kochhar +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Tue Aug 8 15:14:47 2000 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 11:14:47 -0400 Subject: Indologist's India Message-ID: <161227060767.23782.15502926765817954270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Himangshu Dave is right in saying that we seem to study our nigamas from western eyes. For they, and western trained Indologists, stayed away from folk and tribal art and culture. Unless one immerses oneself in agamic art and culture one will remain detached and distanced from the real India. Luckily judging from recent publications and exhibitions this trend is being reversed and a more holisitic picture of ancient India is emerging. Harsha V. Dehejia From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 8 11:36:34 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 11:36:34 +0000 Subject: evidence of absence Message-ID: <161227060762.23782.13335521054767771032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Please note that absence of evidence is not evidence of >absence. Sure, but it is not evidence for presence either. >All text/oral traditions are valuable for what they say and not for what >they omit. Rgveda doen not mention common salt. If the dark barked,it was >there. But if the dog did not bark, one is left wondering whether the bark >was missing or the dog itself. If common salt is not mentioned in the Rg Veda, then the correct position would be to be neutral about it and not speculate about its existance or non-existance. Likewise if the dog didn't bark, it is best to be silent about it rather than speculate whether the dog existed or not, the reasons why it didn't bark, whether it had lost its voice or its interest in barking etc Ofcourse you can wonder, but why try to make facts out of your speculation? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU Tue Aug 8 16:34:53 2000 From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph G. Walser) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 12:34:53 -0400 Subject: hard to find book Message-ID: <161227060769.23782.3378370288841501683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan, I know that I found it when I was in Chicago so it must have been close by. I looked at Madison's library and I think they have it. The problem is that it does not have its own entry. It is simply listed as volume two of Hahn's edition. Good luck. -j Joseph Walser Dept. of Comparative Religion Tufts University Medford, MA. (617) 627-2322 fax: (617) 627-3191 From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Aug 8 22:41:15 2000 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 12:41:15 -1000 Subject: Nationalisms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060776.23782.1367496164392676166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, nanda chandran wrote: > Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >And that the Indians have had half a century to set things right? Lars, things have in fact already improved tremendously in the last 50 years, and are continuing to improve. FYI, this childish whining about Brits is unknown when Indians are among themselves. We know that a defeated country can expect the worst from its invaders, so we are not surprised :-) :-) > >The Indian politicians have to carry that responsibility themselves. Of course. > This bunch themselves - most of them thugs - are a product of Brit > cunning and Indian naivete. One never hears this kind of undignified, humiliating, childish whining about Brits when Indians are among themselves. Sanctimonious comments from foreigners seem to set it off. Don't take it seriously. BTW, "naive" Indians are hard to find. > What meaning has democracy in a country > where half the population is illiterate? Democracy becomes even more essential in such a case, since it gives even illiterate people an equal say. BTW, the literacy rate as of 2000 is believe to be about 63%, and is increasing by 1 to 1.5 percentage points per year. It looks like the literacy rate will be over 90% in 20 more years. Regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Tue Aug 8 08:07:48 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 13:37:48 +0530 Subject: text is god Message-ID: <161227060751.23782.2568448158737857340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajesh Kochhar wrote: > If an Indian from 1500 years ago were to come alive today,would he recognize that we are talking about him and his times. I suspect we are getting obsessed with the indologists' India, an Asiatic Society type of ancient India.Surely there was a tradition of truth,ethics, common sense, belonging to the field India. May be, moulded and influenced by the texts, but self-supportig and autonomous. > Rajesh Kochhar Agreed. -- Himanshu From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Tue Aug 8 08:27:49 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 13:57:49 +0530 Subject: Indologist's India Message-ID: <161227060754.23782.7239981070812026593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harsha V. Dehejia wrote: > I write in support of Rajesh Kochar's posting today that Indologists have > created a certain kind and type of ancient India, an Asiatic Society type of > ancient India. I agree with you there. > Those of us who read the agamas more than the nigamas, and > study folk rather than classical art, do not seem to fall into that trap. I think here you are making a mistake. Actually nigamas are misunderstood by us, due to various reasons. For decades we in India have looked at Western study and approval for what is Indian. For example, how many Hindus would know even general nature of contents of the four Vedas? Or, the whole hierarchy of scriptures available? The situation will remain so till our people take more interest in our heritage, without waiting for prompting and approval by others. Why wait for applauses from others, like children performing in front of parents? -- Himanshu From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Aug 8 21:10:37 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 14:10:37 -0700 Subject: More on Kalkin, mlecchas and nAstikas Message-ID: <161227060774.23782.13340295014609554488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to add a note to my original post (3 Aug 2000) on this subject. Although neither the MahAbhArata (3.188.87-93) nor the ViSNu PurANa (4.24.98-101) descriptions of Kalkin (the Brahmin who will behave like a kSatriya and will destroy all the foreigners and heretics) mention it, by the time of the BhAgavata PurANa (12.2.19-20) Kalkin was already described as brandishing a sword. It is interesting that Rajaram has decided to call his web site "The Sword of Truth" and to prominently display a shiny, bejeweled sword at the top of his page. This could merely be a coincidence but, then again, it may not. And, ironically (in light of the "horse seal" affair), from the BhAgavata PurANa onwards Kalkin arrives mounted on, what else?... a horse. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Tue Aug 8 09:19:56 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 14:49:56 +0530 Subject: evidence of absence Message-ID: <161227060757.23782.9428099607809872881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >----- Original Message ----- >From: "nanda chandran" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 1:42 AM >Subject: Re: SV: Rajaram's bull > > >> >> Some of the earliest of Tamil literature mentions >> Brahmins and they're referred to only in their religious capacity. Plus >> also what kind of evidence is there in Tamil literature regarding any >> invasion? If an Aryan invasion did happen why did the Dravidians never >> write about it? And where's there any evidence in Tamil literature >> regarding a homeland for Tamils anywhere outside Tamil Nadu? RESPONSE>*****Please note that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. All text/oral traditions are valuable for what they say and not for what they omit. Rgveda doen not mention common salt. If the dark barked,it was there. But if the dog did not bark, one is left wondering whether the bark was missing or the dog itself. > rajesh kochhar From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Aug 8 19:30:43 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 15:30:43 -0400 Subject: frog and princess? Message-ID: <161227060771.23782.10481897429276172060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The rsi Suka, whose name of course means "parrot," is often shown in art as a man with a parrot's head. Indeed, I believe I have seen pictures of him as simply a parrot, though I could not cite this. Therefore I decided to see if there were any sages named "frog" who might then be the object of the sculpture discussed in this thread. Sorensen's Index to the Names in the Mahabharata showed only Mandukaraj or Mandukaraja, "king of the frogs," whose personal name is Ayu(s), citing III, ++13167, 13173, 13178. (The plus signs represent Sorensen's obelisks.) S.v. Ayu is cited #461 (Vamadevacarita), III, 1921, +13173. Perhaps this may be of assistance. I can't find that an eponymous Manduka is ever given as the ancestors of the Mandukyas as a group of brahmins. Another example of an rsi shown as an animal is the statuette of Patanjali as a coiled snake illustrated in Staal's Reader in the Sanskrit Grammarians. Allen Thrasher From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Aug 8 23:07:54 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 16:07:54 -0700 Subject: More on Kalkin, mlecchas and nAstikas Message-ID: <161227060779.23782.17891026903212754032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Concerning my recent post, I received the following clarification from Vishal Agarwal: __________ I read your post regarding the Sword of Truth website. FYI, the website is run by an individual named Mr. Arvind Ghosh, who resides at Houston (Texas). To my knowledge, Mr. Ghosh is himself not very literate in website construction, and is very aged. The website is therefore run by some students and other individuals residing close to him. He informed me that the title is actually inspired by the words "cleave ingorance with the sword of knowledge" in the Bhagavad Gita. (And I believe this is stated somewhere at the current website or its earlier version). I do not know how the articles are chosen for publication at this website. You may forward this message to the Indology list if you wish. Mr. Ghosh's address is actually listed under the publications section of the website. I had received an email from him saying that the bookstore is being liquidated currently and therefore the publications are available at heavy discounts. Regards Vishal Agarwal __________ At 02:10 PM 08/08/2000 -0700, I had written: >I would like to add a note to my original post (3 Aug 2000) on this subject. > >Although neither the MahAbhArata (3.188.87-93) nor the ViSNu PurANa >(4.24.98-101) descriptions of Kalkin (the Brahmin who will behave like a >kSatriya and will destroy all the foreigners and heretics) mention it, by >the time of the BhAgavata PurANa (12.2.19-20) Kalkin was already described >as brandishing a sword. It is interesting that Rajaram has decided to call >his web site "The Sword of Truth" and to prominently display a shiny, >bejeweled sword at the top of his page. This could merely be a coincidence >but, then again, it may not. > >And, ironically (in light of the "horse seal" affair), from the BhAgavata >PurANa onwards Kalkin arrives mounted on, what else?... a horse. > >Best, > >Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >University of California, Berkeley > From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue Aug 8 23:21:15 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 19:21:15 -0400 Subject: Nationalisms Message-ID: <161227060781.23782.6408833393827256687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/8/00 6:42:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU writes [among other things]: > BTW, > "naive" Indians are hard to find. Well, I think that Indians who buy horses from Rajaram are naive, at best. And it appears that there are a number of them on this list [and, to be sure, not just Indians]. BTW, again, how many Indians and non-Indians have read the review article by Frits Staal of the two most recent volumes of the Harvard Oriental Opera Minora Series [the first "Inside the Texts/Beyond the Texts: New Approaches to the Study of the Vedas", Proceedings of the Intl Vedic Workshop, edited by M. Witzel; the second "Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology", Proceedings of the Intl Seminar on Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia, edited by J. Bronkhorst and M. Deshpande]? which review is entitled "A Breakthrough in Vedic Studies" and published in "The Book Review", published in New Delhi [vol 24, nos. 1-2, Jan.--Feb. 2000]? So it appears that it is not impossible for the contemporary Indian to become well-informed about recent scholarship in Vedic, if he or she is so inclined. But the 'millions' who read Rajaram will perhaps take more pleasure in Rajaram's horses than in genuine scholarship? Well, whose fault is it if they do? George Thompson From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed Aug 9 03:07:09 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 20:07:09 -0700 Subject: New Website on Rajaram's Decipherments Message-ID: <161227060798.23782.6699197017630076470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel wrote: > Just like S. Farmer, > > http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html > > I have put my notes on N.S. Rajaram on the web today. > > My paper deals with many of the aspects of Rajaram's and Jha's "decipherment" > of the Indus inscriptions. > > http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/R&J.htm My own webpage on the Rajaram "horse" business, referred to by Michael above, now has crosslinks to his article (as his does to mine), so they form a pair. Some minor editorial changes have also been added today. To see the updated version, if you've already loaded it, hit "refresh" or "reload" when you open the page. Otherwise your browser will simply reload the old version from its cache memory. saf From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Aug 9 00:54:43 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 20:54:43 -0400 Subject: Nationalisms Message-ID: <161227060783.23782.15193125660248954813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GT> So it appears that it is not impossible for the contemporary Indian to become well-informed about recent scholarship in Vedic, if he or she is so inclined. But the 'millions' who read Rajaram will perhaps take more pleasure in Rajaram's horses than in genuine scholarship? An understanding of the indian public would tell you that rajarams's books is not being read by millions and is not a mainstream topic. Out of all the educated indians I have met, I have only met one person who knew Rajaram's name and about his decipherment attempts. I also remember a list member who keeps track of indian news and finds it "somewhat nuanced". This is a bit thick. The news is written with a certain audience in mind. Dont see why the news of a whole nation has to be nuanced in a way to satisfy the requirements of an individual. I remember reading the indian coverage on the recent WTO conference in seattle and also the US coverage. There is an obvious dfference and it would be surprising if there wasn't. regards RB From GthomGt at CS.COM Wed Aug 9 01:00:34 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 21:00:34 -0400 Subject: Nationalisms Message-ID: <161227060785.23782.18045310423857395236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/8/00 8:55:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM writes: > GT> So it appears that it is not impossible for the contemporary Indian to > become well-informed about recent scholarship in Vedic, if he or she is so > inclined. But the 'millions' who read Rajaram will perhaps take more > pleasure in Rajaram's horses than in genuine scholarship? > An understanding of the indian public would tell you that rajarams's books > is not being read by millions and is not a mainstream topic. Out of all the > educated indians I have met, I have only met one person who knew Rajaram's > name and about his decipherment attempts. > I also remember a list member who keeps track of indian news and finds it > "somewhat nuanced". This is a bit thick. The news is written with a certain > audience in mind. Dont see why the news of a whole nation has to be nuanced > in a way to satisfy the requirements of an individual. > I remember reading the indian coverage on the recent WTO conference in > seattle and also the US coverage. There is an obvious dfference and it would > be surprising if there wasn't. > regards RB This is good news. Thanks. GT From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Aug 9 02:30:04 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 22:30:04 -0400 Subject: New Website on Rajaram's Decipherments Message-ID: <161227060790.23782.11408873719068997241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just like S. Farmer, http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html I have put my notes on N.S. Rajaram on the web today. My paper deals with many of the aspects of Rajaram's and Jha's "decipherment" of the Indus inscriptions. http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/R&J.htm Highlights: * the 'principles' involved (consonants count little, vowels nothing) * a selection of proposed "translations" of the seals such as 'mosquito' or "it's the rainy season"!! * the strange nature of the ("Vedic") Sanskrit underlying the decipherment * a summary of my earlier discussions of the Dholavira "Horse thieves", Pashupati, and "Ilavarta" Sarasvati inscriptions, on Indology This will be udpdated occasionally, as necessary. Especially, if Rajaram chooses to respond beyond threating us with lawsuits and intervention with University authorities. Not to mention his influence with the Indian Government. For some of the nationalistic background of the 'movement' ("India awake!" -- D. Frawley; cf. also Elst on the http://hvk.org/hvk/abouthvk.html site), see next message. ENJOY! -- MW ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Aug 9 02:30:36 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 00 22:30:36 -0400 Subject: Some nat./chauvinistic web sites In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD029B59C5@SMGMAIL> Message-ID: <161227060793.23782.18046707275719179056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> R. Banerjee wrote: >Ther has been much ado about the contents of the sword of truth website. >/articles.html> >I would lke to remind members that I was the first person to draw attantion >to this site... BUT, HE DID NOT TELL US WHERE IT COMES FROM. See below! (this was written this morning. I now see that some info on the sword web site has been supplied in the meantime. Nevertheless:) >Maybe the title "sword of truth is too melodramatic" but its cotents are >nothing more than run of the mill rhetoric which is quite common and natural >for a populace which needs to vent its feelings in response to terrorist >attacks, uneducated politicians and whatever else. .... No country in the >world faces such a >terrorist threat as india. WELL, the "populace" here clearly is located in TEXAS (below!), so which "uneducated politicians" are they complaining about? http://www.swordoftruth.com "" Welcome to Sword of Truth, a weekly online magazine which deals with presenting news analysis on global issues with an emphasis on the Indian subcontinent. Our aim is to deliver unbiased, objective analysis of events that affect your daily lives. ... "" such as: "" The Ayodhya Dispute - Fact and fiction in the temple-mosque controversy (Part 3) While the second Ayodhya dispute is entirely a recent concoction with no historical basis, for the Aligarh school of Muslim scholars it has been a godsend. These men whose ideas and actions had been responsible for the holocaust of the Partition were now gifted an opportunity to rehabilitate themselves under the Marxist shelter. -- N. S. Rajaram "" (NB. He is ased in Oklahoma!) and many others .... ALL OF THIS, AND MORE, COMES FROM, AS ANYBODY CAN CHECK OUT WITH JUSR A LITTLE WEB EXPERIENCE: Registrant: Sword Of Truth (SWORDOFTRUTH-DOM) 5740 W. Little York #216 Houston, TX 77091 Domain Name: SWORDOFTRUTH.COM Administrative Contact, Billing Contact: Ghosh, Arvind (AG2642) aghosh at SWORDOFTRUTH.COM Sword Of Truth P.O. Box 631048 Houston, TX 77263 (713)778-0960 (2) Now that we are at it, the "Hindu Vivek Kendra" site, out of Bombay I thought, but surprise, surprise: http://hvk.org/hvk/ ""The ideology of Hindutva is becoming popular because there is a growing realization that everything else that has been tried to inculcate a national spirit, has failed to yield the desired results. ... ... an essentially negative picture of Hindutva. It is therefore necessary to give the theoretical basis of the Hindutva movement due publicity. In one of his recent books, a Eurpean scholar, Dr. Koenraad Elst says, "... As long as there is no intellectual mobilization, Hindu society is badly on the defensive.... The intellectual dimension for the success of a cultural and political movement is highly indispensable." The "Hindu Vivek Kendra" has been established as a resource center, with this objective in mind. We hope it will become one of Hindutva's "nerve centers" both in India and abroad. "" Registrant: Hindu Vivek Kendra (HVK-DOM) 43 Valley Rd. Needham, MA 02192 US Domain Name: HVK.ORG Administrative Contact, Billing Contact: Shah, Ajay (AS1512) WWWCorp at AOL.COM WWWCorp, Inc. P.O. Box 722098 San Diego, CA 92172 858-484-4564 (FAX) 858-484-4564 (3) And the Hindutva site: http://www.hindutva.org/ "Welcome to Hindutva Home Page on the web! We have provided a few links to material related to Hindu religion, persecution of Hindus in their homeland, publications related to Hinduism and Judaism as well as Islam and Christianity. Additional links will soon be offered soon." Registrant: Hindu TVA (HINDUTVA-DOM) 5927 Southridge Ct. San Jose, CA 95138 US Domain Name: HINDUTVA.ORG Administrative Contact, Billing Contact: Tendulkar, Prakash (PT1000) webmaster at HINDUTVA.ORG Hindu TVA 5927 Southridge Ct. San Jose, CA 95138 408-972-1686 In sum, from expatriate Bengali, Marathi, etc. CONCLUSIONS?? - Happy surfing!! MW ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 9 02:08:52 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 02:08:52 +0000 Subject: frog and princess? Message-ID: <161227060788.23782.3020955946437708892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen Thrasher wrote: >Therefore I decided to see if there were any sages named "frog" who >might then be the object of the sculpture discussed in this thread. I was wondering about this angle too, but couldn't remember that any significant stories are associated with the names mANDUkya (AV) or mANDUkeya (RV). Unlike aitareya, for example. >Mandukaraj or Mandukaraja, "king of the frogs," whose personal name is >Ayu(s), citing III, ++13167, 13173, 13178. (The plus signs represent >Sorensen's obelisks.) S.v. Ayu is cited #461 (Vamadevacarita), III, Thanks, I'll check the MBh references. Would you know if this Ayus can be identified with the son of Urvashi and Pururavas? Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Aug 9 10:29:11 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 06:29:11 -0400 Subject: vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam revisited In-Reply-To: <39912132.4FE2@bahnhof.se> Message-ID: <161227060808.23782.6308784813783617004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swen Ekelin has made the following comment: >Ergo, the camps that want to establish >a sufficiently "ancient" Vedic source for the phrase (Peter Freund on August 4, 2000) >must not only consider the age of the MahopanoSad in itself, but also >the age of the passage, which is perhaps part of a later addition. I have never been a supporter of the Hindutva politics, and yet in making such statements, we, as Indologists, seem to forget that the Indian tradition itself was never chronologically disposed toward the notion of "Vedic", and did not consider Vedic and Sanskrit as chronological layers of linguistic history. The modern revivalistic politics is in some sense a continuation of the classical attitudes. While the western Indological tradition may demand chronological proof of ancientness and of Vedic character of a passage, no such compulsions are part of the classical psyche and its modern Avatars. Consider the claim to Vedic character of the Hare Krishnas so beautifully discussed by R.P. Das in one of his articles. Should the Hare Krishnas be required to prove their Vedic character to the satisfaction of western Indology's demand of chronological logic, or should they, as a religious tradition, rather follow the dictum of the Bhagavad-Gita: vedaiz ca sarvair aham eva vedya.h? I believe that the modern politics of revivalism and Hindutva has an essential classical character. Its premises are preset and only that logic which supports their axioms is admissible. This is analogous to the treatment of tarka in classical Vedantic works: vedaaviruddha tarka is the only kind that is aceptable. From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Wed Aug 9 09:15:30 2000 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 09:15:30 +0000 Subject: vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam revisited Message-ID: <161227060800.23782.713550934728210426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On August 7, 2000, Jan E.M. Houben wrote >The Mahopani.sad occurs in P. Deussen?s 60 Upani.sads of the >Veda /.../ but is there much shorter than in the MLBD volume. >The first verses are similar, but the verse with vasudhaiva ... >is missing. Ergo, the camps that want to establish >a sufficiently "ancient" Vedic source for the phrase (Peter Freund on August 4, 2000) must not only consider the age of the MahopanoSad in itself, but also the age of the passage, which is perhaps part of a later addition. Deussen?s translation (*Sechzig Upanishad?s des Veda*, Leipzig 1897) appears (p. 538 - 539) to be based on the edition of G. A. Jacob: *Eleven ?tharvaNa Upanishads with D?pik?s*. *Bombay Sanskrit Series* # 40. 1891, (2)1916. According to Deussen, MahopaniSad belongs to the generally acknowledged UpaniSads of the Atharvaveda (p. 543), and it is the oldest of the ?tharvaNa vaiSNava UpaniSads (p. 743, n.1). From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Wed Aug 9 17:27:03 2000 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 10:27:03 -0700 Subject: Some nat./chauvinistic web sites Message-ID: <161227060823.23782.11770100400977214280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To all those involved in the venerable public service of advertising chauvinistic web-sites (indeed, a truly motley crowd of honest-to-God Indologists, "border-line Indologists", chauvinists, rabble-rousers), could you please pass my message onto the HVK folks that I cannot be party to their organization because I am pissed off by their spelling of "viveka" as "vivek". Thanks to everyone of you, from the heart of my bottom. -Srini ps: What ya pity, yas ya Brahmin, I could hyave been ya key player in this august yinstitution (proof lies in non-Euclidean thinking), believing in 70 centuries of Brahmanical contribution and more (proof: not to be found in my Sanskritic heritage, but in my maRa-Tamizh heritage of 4400+3700+1750 years.) From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Aug 9 08:37:24 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 10:37:24 +0200 Subject: SV: Nationalisms Message-ID: <161227060803.23782.15631328064813137587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan S. Raja [SMTP:raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU] skrev 9. august 2000 00:41: > > > Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > >And that the Indians have had half a century to set things right? > > Lars, things have in fact already improved > tremendously in the last 50 years, and are > continuing to improve. > > >The Indian politicians have to carry that responsibility themselves. > > Of course. > > > > This bunch themselves - most of them thugs - are a product of Brit > > cunning and Indian naivete. In all haste, I am rather bogged down right now: To be on the safe side, I would like to say that I did not make the remark above. > One never hears this kind of undignified, humiliating, > childish whining about Brits when Indians are among > themselves. Sanctimonious comments from foreigners > seem to set it off. Don't take it seriously. BTW, > "naive" Indians are hard to find. > > > > What meaning has democracy in a country > > where half the population is illiterate? Not my comment either. > Democracy becomes even more essential in such > a case, since it gives even illiterate people > an equal say. BTW, the literacy rate as of 2000 > is believe to be about 63%, and is increasing by > 1 to 1.5 percentage points per year. It looks like > the literacy rate will be over 90% in 20 more years. Given the runaway demography, a literacy rate of 63% or even 40-50 % is actually quite an achievement in my opinion. More people know how to read and write in India today than there were people in all of South Asia at Partition. Since the population increase is so dramatic, any reference to the British becomes rather nonsensical. Other things being equal, I believe that India would have done much better for herself if she had managed to stabilize her population at, say, 300-350 millions. Yet, India's politicians have a lot to answer for, although their job has been and remains extremely difficult. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 9 15:52:49 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 10:52:49 -0500 Subject: vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam indeed ! Message-ID: <161227060817.23782.4708764219594840614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Madhav Deshpande > >I have never been a supporter of the Hindutva politics, and yet in making >such statements, we, as Indologists ........ > Hmm, I wonder why Dr.Deshpande feels the need to restate his anti-hindutva leanings ? How does it matter ? I have seen other people of Indian origin also feel the need to do so on this list. Generally in the present Euro-dominated Indian studies academia, a person of Indian origin has to repeatedly state that he or she is not this or that - lest he/she be labelled. If Dr. Deshpande who has been in Indology for so long feels that he has to do it - then imagine a new person entering the field, and without tenure, having to survive ! Also, note that a person of European origin does not have to make any such disclaimers. Their scholarship is self-evident. Regards, Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From fushimi at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Aug 9 16:46:14 2000 From: fushimi at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Makoto FUSHIMI) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 11:46:14 -0500 Subject: apologies Message-ID: <161227060814.23782.15781622757857091958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is forwarded to the list for Steve Farmer: [with further apologies for its tardiness] > To List Members: > > Around 9 pm on 8 August, Calif. time, I hit the "Return Key" on a > mistakenly set to the whole List. That resulted in my sending out > a private note on the Rajaram issue to the whole List. > > I attempted to post an apology but the server bounced my message > since my note was my second to the List (the quota) for the day. > > Again, apologies to everyone. > > saf From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Aug 9 15:57:30 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 11:57:30 -0400 Subject: frog and princess? Message-ID: <161227060819.23782.12645553099940080963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, I meant to add that Sorensen clearly distinguishes this Ayu from the son of Pururavas and Urvasi. Allen <> From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Wed Aug 9 10:02:08 2000 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 12:02:08 +0200 Subject: vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam revisited Message-ID: <161227060806.23782.15769128651267595924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The stanza occurs also as no. 75 in the anthology Praj~naada.n.da ascribed to a Naagaarjuna. The work is available only in a Tibetan translation which according to Michael Hahn was prepared at the end of the 8th or beginning of the 9th century AD. (see his paper "Studies in Original Buddhism and Mahaayaana Buddhism in Commemoration of late Professor Fumimaro Watanabe, ed. by Egaku Mayeda, vol. 1, Kyoto: Nagata Bunshodo 1993, pp. 32-3; also, ``Prakrit Stanzas in an Early Anthology of Sanskrit Verses", in Bulletin d`?tudes Indiennes 11-12 [1993-94], pp. 355-368). The Tibetan text runs as follows: | snying du sdug pa`am gzhan gang zhes | | sems yang ba dag rtsi bar byed | | spyod pa rgya chen ldan pa dag | | da yi dkyil `khor thams cad gnyer | To quote the relevant passages from M. Hahn`s article mentioned above: ``The P[raj~na]D[anda], which is obviously a compilation from anonymous as well as literary works, quotes from the following texts composed by individual authors: a) Naagaarjuna`s Ratnaavalii 4.8 = PD 196, b) Aarya"suura`s Jaatakamaalaa 5.10 = PD 116, c) Bhart.rhari`s "Satakatrayii 157 = PD 101, d) Maagha`s "Si"supaalavadha 16.26 = PD 67, e) Gopadatta`s Matsaranandaavadaana 60 = PD 103. Since it is very unlikely that the five authors mentioned above quoted from the PD, we can safely assume that the unknown compiler of the PD borrowed from their works. [... The compiler of the PD] must have lived in the seventh or eighth century AD." Neither the character of the anthology nor the context of the stanza gives a hint of any cynical or ironical intention. Best regards, Roland Steiner From christian.coseru at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Aug 9 02:44:21 2000 From: christian.coseru at ANU.EDU.AU (Christian Coseru) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 12:44:21 +1000 Subject: Kamaleswar Bhattacharya address and email In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060795.23782.11775821355815501270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the postal address of Kamaleswar Bhattacharya in Paris or whether he is or not reachable by email? Christian Coseru Australian National University Ph: 02-6249 4323 Centre for Asian Societies and Histories Fax:02-6279 8326 Faculty of Asian Studies Fax:02-6279 8326 Canberra ACT 0200 Australia Email:christian.coseru at anu.edu.au From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Aug 9 17:01:38 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 13:01:38 -0400 Subject: Some nat./chauvinistic web sites Message-ID: <161227060821.23782.7342826568880699751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> M. Witzel writes: >Ther has been much ado about the contents of the sword of truth website. >< >/articles.html> >I would lke to remind members that I was the first person to draw attantion >to this site... BUT, HE DID NOT TELL US WHERE IT COMES FROM. See below! RB> yes I did not know and did not care. I was using a search engine to find articles by rajaram on the harappan script. I did not bother reading through any of the other articles but did glance at the titles. What is the significance though? Is it taboo to discuss indian politics if you reside in texas? MW> WELL, the "populace" here clearly is located in TEXAS (below!), so which "uneducated politicians" are they complaining about? RB> I remember an article on Sonia gandhi, did not read it. She and others like lalu yadav, rabri devi are the normal topics of conversation in households in India the common theme being how unqualified they are etc. You will find such discussions in the mainstream media also They obviously have supporters too. Likening the sword in the website to kalki's sword is laughable and not an association most people would make unless they seriously believe b-grade hollywood flicks which deal with things like the spawn of satan and such like. I am sorry to see indologists analyze india like this. My impression is that the sword of... is a political and not a cult site. I will read an articleor two if I get time. regards RB From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Wed Aug 9 11:38:25 2000 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 13:38:25 +0200 Subject: Kamaleswar Bhattacharya address and email In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000809124421.009a5e70@pophost.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227060811.23782.256616058589149720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, Christian Coseru wrote: > Does anyone know the postal address of Kamaleswar Bhattacharya in Paris or > whether he is or not reachable by email? If I remember right his e-mail address is kamaleswar at hotmail.com Hope it helps. Peter Wyzlic From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Aug 10 01:16:57 2000 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 15:16:57 -1000 Subject: SV: Nationalisms In-Reply-To: <01C001EE.F3AFC1C0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227060841.23782.7982611408515971462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: Narayan S. Raja [SMTP:raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU] skrev 9. august 2000 00:41: [...deleted...] > > This bunch themselves - most of them thugs - are a product of Brit > > cunning and Indian naivete. In all haste, I am rather bogged down right now: To be on the safe side, I would like to say that I did not make the remark above. [...deleted...] > > What meaning has democracy in a country > > where half the population is illiterate? Not my comment either. I never said you said this. My original posting started with: "On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, nanda chandran wrote: > Lars Martin Fosse wrote:" This, by convention, means that lines marked with a single ">" came from Nanda Chandran, whereas lines marked with "> >" came from you. However, I well appreciate that you want to make it even clearer to casual readers that you din't say the above things. OK, that's natural. Best wishes, Raja. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Aug 10 01:23:50 2000 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 15:23:50 -1000 Subject: Nationalisms Message-ID: <161227060843.23782.8071433377633993070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Given the runaway demography, a literacy rate of 63% or even 40-50 % is ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sorry, but this "runaway demography" comes simply from a reduction in death rates. Just after the British went away, India's death rate per 1000 in 1950 was 27.4. India's death rate per 1000 in 1997 was 8.9. (The above numbers were obtained from: http://www.finmin.nic.in/eco/indi.htm http://www.ieo.org/budget99/social_sect.html ) While the British were able to maintain a "stiff upper lip" regarding the atrociously high death rate in India, it dropped sharply after the natives took charge. Too bad from an environmental point of view, but unavoidable. Meanwhile, the birth rate per 1000 declined from 39.9 in 1950, to 27.2 in 1997. > Other things being equal, I believe > that India would have done much better for herself if she had managed to > stabilize her population at, say, 300-350 millions. India's population in 1950 was already 361 million. So, only by magic could the population be stabilized at 350 million while the death rate dropped by two-thirds (from 27.4 to 8.9). Ultimately, all of us third-worlders are suffering from "overpopulation" due to the lack of new continents to steal from the natives. Europe (which, without Russia, is comparable in size to India) has a population of about 300 million. But if you bring back all the people of European descent from North and South America, Australia, etc., Europe would have a population of 700 to 800 million -- quite comparable to India. In other words, third-worlders have a "runaway population", while Europe has a "population that ran away." It ran away to the Americas, etc., at the expense of the local people. Oh, well. Ultimately, all biological organisms must fend for themselves -- no point blaming others. Best regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed Aug 9 23:17:44 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 16:17:44 -0700 Subject: Rajaram as "Scientist" Message-ID: <161227060832.23782.7651113290734823188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I apologize to everyone that by accident yesterday I sent a private message -- obviously intended for an individual Indologist, and NOT for the whole List -- to everyone in Indology. The message counted as my second message of the day, so I've had to wait 24 hours to post my apology. I immediately wrote the List Owner to ask him to remove the message from the List Server, but received an automatic reply that he'll be out of the office until August 16th. The private message had to do with the Rajaram mess. I was trying to pass on a hunch to the recipient that N.S. Rajaram's claims to being "one of America's best-known workers in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics" for over a decade (in the 80s) was just as empty as his claims that he and his collaborator N. Jha had "deciphered" the Harappan script. The note was written quickly and was backed by only hearsay evidence. I would never make such claims publicly without checking the evidence. Now I've done that; my hunch was right. Rajaram's boasts that he was "one of American's best-known workers in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics" for over a decade have no more credibility than his claims about his "horse seal" discovery. The emptiness of these boasts is noteworthy since it shows that Rajaram's twisting of reality go much further than his manufacturing evidence in his "horse seal" and in his Harappan "decipherments." Those latter claims have already been handily debunked. The evidence was reviewed at two websites (now linked: hit "Reload" or "Reset" in your browser) that Prof. Witzel and I posted yesterday: http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/R&J.htm The debunking of Rajaram has been rough, but it is fully documented and well deserved. Rajaram has made *big* claims that he and his (and previously unknown) collaborator Natwar Jha have made "the most significant historical achievement of our times." N.S. Rajaram's autobiography informs us that their decipherment of the Indus Valley script "is recognized [by whom?] as the most important breakthrough of our time in the study of Indian history and culture." Those are hardly trivial claims. See this at: http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/articles.html M. Witzel and I have shown how specious those claims are, and have highlighted the rightwing politics that motivate Rajaram's work. Rereading his autobiographical claims yesterday made me think how *other* boasts made there might lull unsuspecting readers into thinking that his claims about "cracking" Harappan had genuine value. Rajaram's autobiography adds: For more than ten years, [Rajaram] was one of America's best-known workers in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics. He has been an advisor to several high technology companies in America and Europe. He has also been a consultant to NASA. Rajaram may very well have been a contract worker for NASA, since the Agency has tens of thousands of people who work in that capacity for NASA subcontractors. (I have a dozen friends in that category.) But was Rajaram indeed a famous researcher at one time, who for "more than ten years" was "one of America's best-known workers in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics"? I asked my NASA friends who have worked for years in artificial intelligence and robotics. They had never heard of Rajaram. That was the hunch that I passed on to the intended recipient of my message. I suggested that I'd check things out further. I did that today: The hunch was correct. In a word, Rajaram's claim to have been a famous researcher in AI and robotics is as empty as his "horse seal" hoax. There's no need to take this on my word: Test the evidence for yourself. Go to the FOLLOWING BIBLIOGRAPHY OF OVER ONE MILLION STUDIES IN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, ROBOTICS, AND COMPUTER SCIENCE -- the field's fullest bibliography. It is drawn from 1200 *separate* bibliographies, and is accessed, on the average, over 200,000 times a month by researchers in computer science. It is an amazing resource. (Too bad nothing this sophisticated exists in the cultural sciences): http://liinwww.ira.uka.de/bibliography/index.html#search When you get there, reset "Results" (set by default at "Citation" in the drop-down list) to "BibTex" to return the fullest information. Then type "Rajaram" in the search field and hit "Search." When you get the results, scroll down the other "Rajaram" entries (other people), just looking for "N. S. Rajaram." When you see his name, click on it in the link. It will yield full entries on all of Rajaram's referenced studies in the field. You will find bibliographical listings of two minor engineering notes: (1) A three-pager in SIGSAM Bulletin (an engineering bulletin) in May, 1980. (2) A one-page note in InTech (put out by the Instrument Society of America) from April, 1987. That's it! The bibliographical database might miss something, but not much. And it NEVER misses anything important. To put it lightly, these skimpy notes hardly support Rajaram's boast that "For more than ten years, he was one of America's best-known workers in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics"! These claims are as worthy of a horse-laugh as his bogus "horse seal." If you want to compare Rajaram work in these fields with people who in the same decade WERE "America's best-known workers in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics," type in (in the same Search Engine) any one of the names I list below. These names represent a few of the people in these fields whose works I've read (and I'm *hardly* an expert in artificial intelligence). Sometimes references will pop up that simply *refer* to these writers, even though they aren't the authors of the cited works. This is because they *were* the "best-known workers in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics" in this decade, and their writings are touched on in the cited works. (No references of this sort pop up for "N. S. Rajaram.") If you test this data yourself, don't type in the first names I've included in parentheses for reference purposes, but just the last names: Search engines are tricky. Again, under "Results," select "BibTex" to get the fullest information: Sejnowski (Terrence) Hopfield (John or J. J., Hopfield networksj, etc.) Hinton (Geoffrey or G.E.) Pylyshyn (Zenon) Rumelhart (David, D.E.) McClelland (James, James L., J.L.) Feldman (Jerome) Feigenbaum (Edward A., E.A., etc.) Churchland (Paul or Patricia) Winograd (Terry) Poggio (Tomaso, T.) Minsky (Marvin) McCarthy (John, J.) The list could be much longer: There is nothing like a dose of evidence to undercut Rajaram horse-hype. If you want a taste of what kind of "science" Rajaram currently is involved in, check out the hilariously funny (not by intention) review that he recently published on a book entitled _Vedic Science_. The review, entitled "Science in the Vedas," is posted at: http://home.ica.net/~roymanju/Rajaram.htm Here we find that the Rigveda contains hidden references to antimatter, electrical forces, provides the correct the speed of light, and supplies further information on particle physics and gamma-ray bursts that take place three times a day. This is exactly the frequency given in the Rigveda in at least three passages. (3.56.6, 7.11.3, 9.86.18). The second of these tells us: "O Agni! We know you have wealth to give three times a day to mortals." There is more "wealth to give" in Rajaram's science: Those ancient (pre-Harappan!) Rishi and Rigveda redactors were scientists no less profound than Rajharam himself! A good sampler of Rajaram-level science shows up in the following passage from his review (where Rajaram gently corrects the author's Sanskrit by applying Panini's rules): This is a profoundly different cosmic view, which the author supports with the help of Rigvedic passages including 2.20.7 and 6.47.21. The latter may be read as: "Everyday Indra removes half of the people, similar to the other half but black in color, born in his house." (The author uses the past tense, which I have rendered into the present following Panini's rule for the Vedic usage: chandasi lung lat litah.) The author goes on to observe:"Indra is considered responsible for killing the black people in the Rgveda. As matter and antimatter are attracted towards each other due to the opposite nature of electric charge resulting in annihilation, electric force is indeed responsible for this phenomenon." So black refers to antimatter! In addition to the author's remarkably original reading of an obscure passage, it highlights the utter superficiality of European Indologists and their Indian followers in giving such passages a racial meaning. If the author's insights can be supported, this is the kind of knowledge that was lost over the millennia. There is evidence however, that some fragments of it survived as late as the time of Sayana (1315 - 87). In his Rigveda Bhashya he gives a value for the velocity of light that in modern units works out to 186,000 miles per second. So it is not easy to dismiss the author's interpretations as speculation, obtained by 'retrofitting' modern scientific findings on to the Vedas. In any event, the Vedic cosmology worked out by the author has important differences with modern theories of the universe. Don't miss other Rajaram scientific insights at: http://home.ica.net/~roymanju/Rajaram.htm Sorry again for the erroneously sent personal message to this List yesterday. With this note, I hopefully *will* permanently retire from the Rajaram debunking business -- putting his "horse seal" out to pasture -- to get back to serious work. Steve Farmer From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Aug 9 18:32:25 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 19:32:25 +0100 Subject: Nationalisms Message-ID: <161227060825.23782.6846406327553503422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe children in New Jersey, USA, can study about the genocide of the Irish by the English -- it is an approved part of the school curriculum. (e.g., see mention in http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1997/049721.shtml ) Now, either this is a distortion of history, or else, the British get off very lightly in most history books. Either way, some one ought to be protesting, no ? -arun gupta From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Wed Aug 9 23:58:18 2000 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 19:58:18 -0400 Subject: Language (Was: Re: Some nat./chauvinistic web sites) In-Reply-To: <3991F6CA.EF4@bahnhof.se> Message-ID: <161227060834.23782.5499098561986489682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And if we have to mention such naughty things, let it be in the Sanskrit of the Kamasutra. On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Sven Ekelin wrote: > On August 9, 2000, Srini Pichumani wrote > > > /.../ I am pissed off by their spelling of "viveka" as "vivek". > > Thanks to everyone of you, from the heart of my bottom. > > -Srini > > > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > Could we *please* try to avoid below the waist locutions on this fine > list? > > Thank you, > > S. E > From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Aug 10 00:37:53 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 20:37:53 -0400 Subject: Language (Was: Re: Some nat./chauvinistic web sites) Message-ID: <161227060837.23782.13531491416678918504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/9/00 7:59:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA writes: > And if we have to mention such naughty things, let it be in the > Sanskrit of the Kamasutra. > I'm afraid that this is not politically correct. Given the range of the scholarly interests of this list, I think that Vedic obscenity [of which there is much] would also have to be permitted. Likewise, we would have to permit our friends Palaniappan and Ganesan, among others, to offer obscenity from classical Tamil. And furthermore, if Dominik will permit it, we will have to invite obscenity from the dozens of vernaculars, rich in traditional obscenity, to be sure, that list members are much more familiar with than chaste I. However, I would be willing to go along with the suggestion that European languages should be forbidden [even Latin, the default language of obscenity among Western scholars and a great resource for those who have access to it]. After all, this is the Indology List, for goodness sake, and it is our olbigation to remain Indological -- no? [and for those who have lost their sense of humor because of the Rajaram debacle -- I know that I haven't -- this post is facetious, just like Srini's, in fact]. Best wishes to all. George Thompson From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Aug 9 20:08:43 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 21:08:43 +0100 Subject: Rajaram's bull (response to LS) Message-ID: <161227060827.23782.18086571144371897914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following might be of interest. -arun gupta Quote : "Thus, coercive rule was rationalized through the construction of a body of "knowledge" about the Indian past and heritage, aimed at demonstrating both the unfitness of India for the institutions of representative government and the fitness of Britain to rule India by means of a "vigorous" despotism--a process now familiar to us as Orientalism (on Orientalist representrations of India, see among others Inden 1986; Guha 1992a; Prakash 1990). Central to this construction was the portrayal of India as a society composed of implacably hostile communities, castes, cultures, and religions--a portrayal which was used over and over again to deny liberal democratic reforms." Original article (which has a much wider scope ) at : http://www.binghamton.edu/fbc/gaht5.htm "Beyond Western Hegemonies" by Giovanni Arrighi (arrighi at jhu.edu), Iftikhar Ahmad & Miin-wen Shih ? Fernand Braudel Center 1997. (Paper presented at the XXI Meeting of the Social Science History Association, New Orleans, Louisiana, October 10-13, 1996.) From masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 10 01:32:07 2000 From: masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM (Rustam Masalewala) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 21:32:07 -0400 Subject: Nationalisms Message-ID: <161227060846.23782.6283373316437066555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> All conquests/genocides/suppression of cultures/religions should be studied carefully, with records from both sides carefully recorded and examined. There have been several holocausts and genocides. People ought to carefully study the ones that occurred in Iran and India as well as in other places. Scholars should study the ideologies that caused such events to happen. They ought to discuss if such ideologies have the potential to cause these to happen again. nanda chandran [SMTP:vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 7. august 2000 12:35: >Do white children in America study in their text books >that their >ancestors commited genocide on the native >Indian population? Yes, they do, as they should. >Or do English children know that their current wealth >is a result of >systematic loot of countries like India? It could be, but evidence suggests that regions administered by the British in India generally were more prosperous that the native ruled territories. Wealth is automatically generated in well administered regions. Incidentally the Sword-of-Truth stuff on Feroze Gandhi is mostly nonsense. Rustam ... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vijay0104 at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 10 05:56:39 2000 From: vijay0104 at YAHOO.COM (vijay shankar) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 22:56:39 -0700 Subject: mistake Message-ID: <161227060848.23782.7220841466900292341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Such things do happen. But this brings to mind a nice quotation from Mark Twain (?)OPENED BY MISTAKE TO SEE WHAT WAS INSIDE> --- Steve Farmer wrote: > I apologize to everyone that by accident yesterday I > sent a > private message -- obviously intended for an > individual > Indologist, and NOT for the whole List -- to > everyone in > Indology. The message counted as my second message > of the day, so > I've had to wait 24 hours to post my apology. I > immediately wrote > the List Owner to ask him to remove the message from > the List > Server, but received an automatic reply that he'll > be out of the > office until August 16th. > > The private message had to do with the Rajaram mess. > I was > trying to pass on a hunch to the recipient that N.S. > Rajaram's claims to being "one of America's > best-known workers in > Artificial Intelligence and Robotics" for over a > decade (in the > 80s) was just as empty as his claims that he and his > collaborator N. Jha had "deciphered" the Harappan > script. > > The note was written quickly and was backed by only > hearsay > evidence. I would never make such claims publicly > without > checking the evidence. > > Now I've done that; my hunch was right. Rajaram's > boasts that he > was "one of American's best-known workers in > Artificial > Intelligence and Robotics" for over a decade have no > more > credibility than his claims about his "horse seal" > discovery. The > emptiness of these boasts is noteworthy since it > shows that Rajaram's twisting of reality go much > further than his > manufacturing evidence in his "horse seal" and in > his Harappan > "decipherments." > > Those latter claims have already been handily > debunked. The > evidence was reviewed at two websites (now linked: > hit "Reload" > or "Reset" in your browser) that Prof. Witzel and I > posted yesterday: > > http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html > > http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/R&J.htm > > The debunking of Rajaram has been rough, but it is > fully > documented and well deserved. Rajaram has made *big* > claims > that he and his (and previously unknown) > collaborator Natwar Jha > have made "the most significant historical > achievement of our > times." N.S. Rajaram's autobiography informs us that > their > decipherment of the Indus Valley script "is > recognized [by whom?] > as the most important breakthrough of our time in > the study of > Indian history and culture." > > Those are hardly trivial claims. > > See this at: > > http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/articles.html > > M. Witzel and I have shown how specious those claims > are, and have > highlighted the rightwing politics that motivate > Rajaram's work. > Rereading his autobiographical claims yesterday made > me think how > *other* boasts made there might lull unsuspecting > readers into > thinking that his claims about "cracking" Harappan > had genuine > value. Rajaram's autobiography adds: > > For more than ten years, [Rajaram] was one of > America's > best-known workers in Artificial Intelligence and > Robotics. He has been an advisor to several high > technology companies in America and Europe. He has > also been a consultant to NASA. > > Rajaram may very well have been a contract worker > for NASA, since > the Agency has tens of thousands of people who work > in that > capacity for NASA subcontractors. (I have a dozen > friends in that > category.) But was Rajaram indeed a famous > researcher at one > time, who for "more than ten years" was "one of > America's > best-known workers in Artificial Intelligence and > Robotics"? I > asked my NASA friends who have worked for years in > artificial > intelligence and robotics. They had never heard of > Rajaram. That > was the hunch that I passed on to the intended > recipient of my > message. > > I suggested that I'd check things out further. I did > that today: > The hunch was correct. In a word, Rajaram's claim to > have been a > famous researcher in AI and robotics is as empty as > his "horse > seal" hoax. > > There's no need to take this on my word: Test the > evidence for > yourself. Go to the FOLLOWING BIBLIOGRAPHY OF OVER > ONE MILLION > STUDIES IN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, ROBOTICS, AND > COMPUTER > SCIENCE -- the field's fullest bibliography. It is > drawn from > 1200 *separate* bibliographies, and is accessed, on > the average, > over 200,000 times a month by researchers in > computer science. It > is an amazing resource. (Too bad nothing this > sophisticated exists in the cultural sciences): > > http://liinwww.ira.uka.de/bibliography/index.html#search > > When you get there, reset "Results" (set by default > at "Citation" > in the drop-down list) to "BibTex" to return the > fullest > information. Then type "Rajaram" in the search field > and hit "Search." > > When you get the results, scroll down the other > "Rajaram" entries > (other people), just looking for "N. S. Rajaram." > When you see > his name, click on it in the link. It will yield > full entries on > all of Rajaram's referenced studies in the field. > > You will find bibliographical listings of two minor > engineering notes: > > (1) A three-pager in SIGSAM Bulletin (an engineering > bulletin) in > May, 1980. > > (2) A one-page note in InTech (put out by the > Instrument Society > of America) from April, 1987. > > That's it! The bibliographical database might miss > something, but > not much. And it NEVER misses anything important. To > put it > lightly, these skimpy notes hardly support Rajaram's > boast that > "For more than ten years, he was one of America's > best-known > workers in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics"! > > These claims are as worthy of a horse-laugh as his > bogus "horse seal." > > If you want to compare Rajaram work in these fields > with people > who in the same decade WERE "America's best-known > workers in > Artificial Intelligence and Robotics," type in (in > the same > Search Engine) any one of the names I list below. > These names > represent a few of the people in these fields whose > works I've > read (and I'm *hardly* an expert in artificial > intelligence). > > Sometimes references will pop up that simply *refer* > to these > writers, even though they aren't the authors of the > cited works. > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From saf at SAFARMER.COM Thu Aug 10 06:24:48 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 00 23:24:48 -0700 Subject: Rajaram as "Scientist" Message-ID: <161227060853.23782.2398633407338143480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote, on Rajaram: >You will find bibliographical listings of two minor engineering notes: > >(1) A three-pager in SIGSAM Bulletin (an engineering bulletin) in >May, 1980. > >(2) A one-page note in InTech (put out by the Instrument Society >of America) from April, 1987. Vidyasankar Sundaresan added: > The ISI (Institute for Scientific Information) database gives a > total of six references, mostly in ISA Transactions, the rest > in InTech. Thanks much, Vidyasankar. I actually just pulled up the ISI database. ISI starts too late for the 1980 three-pager but finds the 1987 note, plus the others missed by the AI database. And nothing changes. The six *brief* papers/notes? naming Rajaram as sole author, apparently written while he was in a department of industrial design, add up between 1980 and 1990 to 15 pages!! ISI records that these have been cited four times, less than one citation per paper. Rajaram is also mentioned as second author of a 1992 paper that no one has ever cited.. The problem isn't numbers but inflation, ending in the absurd boast that Rajaram was "one America's best-known workers in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics." No one I know in AI has heard of him. Compare him in the ISI database (look at the number of citations!) with Winograd, Sejnowski, Hinton, Rumelhart, Patricia or Paul Churchland, Feigenbaum, McCarthy, Feldman, Minsky -- or a couple hundred other AI workers. Decipherment, horse seals, scientific fame -- a persistent pattern. "Sword of Truth" indeed! From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Thu Aug 10 00:26:50 2000 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 00 00:26:50 +0000 Subject: Language (Was: Re: Some nat./chauvinistic web sites) Message-ID: <161227060829.23782.8586384744696062857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On August 9, 2000, Srini Pichumani wrote > /.../ I am pissed off by their spelling of "viveka" as "vivek". > Thanks to everyone of you, from the heart of my bottom. > -Srini Ladies and Gentlemen, Could we *please* try to avoid below the waist locutions on this fine list? Thank you, S. E From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 10 00:49:26 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 00 00:49:26 +0000 Subject: Rajaram as "Scientist" Message-ID: <161227060839.23782.14027634820834428465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >You will find bibliographical listings of two minor engineering notes: > >(1) A three-pager in SIGSAM Bulletin (an engineering bulletin) in >May, 1980. > >(2) A one-page note in InTech (put out by the Instrument Society >of America) from April, 1987. > The ISI (Institute for Scientific Information) database gives a total of six references, mostly in ISA Transactions, the rest in InTech. You can also get information on references cited in a given paper, and other authors who have cited the same. Nothing newer than 1992 comes up, and the online database does not cover years earlier than 1982. I presume Rajaram is retired. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Thu Aug 10 07:45:29 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 00 03:45:29 -0400 Subject: Q: Nehru-Gandhi dynasty Message-ID: <161227060858.23782.4810162389488983137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RM> Incidentally the Sword-of-Truth stuff on Feroze Gandhi is mostly nonsense RB> Thats interesting, what does it say? Feroze gandhi was a good friend of my grand fathers. So I am curious. I could ask him. He was definitely a parsi. SA> The Sword of Truth website claims that Pandit Nehru, like Lenin, died due to syphilis. Does anybody know if this is correct ? Has any scientific analysis of Nehru's remains been done to determine if he did die in this manner ? RB> Allahabad has lots of old gossip about the nehru family. Nehru is supposedly an adopted child of Pt motilal and was born of muslim parents. Another one claims he is Nutan the actresses half brother. Yet another claims that his mother was a muslim prostitute. Their old house later belonged to a prostitute leading to these stories maybe. Stanley wolpert the historian says that nehru was gay. I feel sorry for Nehru. Its unlikely that these stories are true. SA> Also, was Indira Gandhi really a high-school drop-out ? Did Rajiv and Sanjay really fail their exams as Sword of Truth says ? RB> I have met several people who knew Indira gandhi as a kid, She was also a school mate of a couple of my relatives. She was not a great student. It is quite likely that she may have dropped out of school and lost a year. No big deal. Sanjay was pretty erratic and a trouble maker. Recently even his son varun admitted to the press that his fathers doings were not right. On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, Rustam Masalewala wrote: > The Sword-of-Truth stuff on Feroze Gandhi is mostly nonsense. regards RB From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Aug 10 07:01:58 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 00 09:01:58 +0200 Subject: briefly Message-ID: <161227060855.23782.4770304318154020406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> sort of truth Jan Houben From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Aug 10 09:38:22 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 00 11:38:22 +0200 Subject: SV: Nationalisms Message-ID: <161227060860.23782.11911462763695091291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan S. Raja [SMTP:raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU] skrev 10. august 2000 03:24: Since this is definitely not classical Indology, I'll send the following answer, but I don't think we should continue with this debate on the list. > Sorry, but this "runaway demography" comes > simply from a reduction in death rates. > > Just after the British went away, > India's death rate per 1000 in 1950 was 27.4. > India's death rate per 1000 in 1997 was 8.9. This is not entirely correct. I'll give you some figures from Livi-Bacci's "Concise History of World Population." India Birth rate (%) Death rate (%) Difference 1950 358 - - 1960 442 4.4 2.3 1.1 1970 555 4.1 1.8 2.3 1980 689 3.6 1.5 2.1 1990 853 3.3 1.2 2.1 [1997 950? 2.7 0.9 1.8] This shows a decrease both in the birth rate and the death rate (your own figures in []). There is still good reason to talk about a runaway demography. Why the demography is "runaway" is of course another matter. But you do have a surplus of births compared to deaths, and that is what matters. > While the British were able to maintain a > "stiff upper lip" regarding the atrociously > high death rate in India, it dropped sharply > after the natives took charge. Too bad from > an environmental point of view, but unavoidable. In the same period, a similar trend took place in China. By 1990 Chinese mortality level was less than one third of its previous level (down from 2.2 to 0.7). This suggests that the British are not necessarily to be blamed for the death rate. According to Livi-Bacci, the differences between India and China are due to the different demographic policies adopted by the two countries. India has made mistakes that reduced the effectiveness of her population control program, such as the use of coercion which brought the program into disrepute. Consequently, the Chinese have done better. I would assume that the reduction in deaths depends upon various factors such as the introduction of new medication developed after the war, better health care etc. > > Other things being equal, I believe > > that India would have done much better for herself if she had managed to > > stabilize her population at, say, 300-350 millions. > > India's population in 1950 was already 361 million. > So, only by magic could the population be stabilized > at 350 million while the death rate dropped by two-thirds > (from 27.4 to 8.9). It actually happens that populations decrease! My estimate of the "ideal" population for India is based on the - admittedly amateurish - idea that India has a smaller area than the US, whereas the US already have a population of some 250 millions. If you increase that population by another 100 million, I find it difficult to see that you could uphold a prosperous society at least at the level that the US now enjoy. (There are already many poor people in the US). I believe India could have been moderately prosperous with a population of 300-350 million. If the population goes beyond that, things get seriously difficult. But I'll admit that there are knowledgeable people who think differently. > Ultimately, all of us third-worlders are suffering > from "overpopulation" due to the lack of new > continents to steal from the natives. > > Europe (which, without Russia, is comparable > in size to India) has a population of about > 300 million. But if you bring back all the people > of European descent from North and South America, > Australia, etc., Europe would have a population > of 700 to 800 million -- quite comparable to > India. This is perfectly true. My own country (now with a pop. of 4.2 million) sent off 400,000 immigrants to the US at a time when the total pop. here was some 2-2.5 millions. If they all come back to the old country, we can easily double our population! > In other words, third-worlders have a > "runaway population", while Europe has > a "population that ran away." That is well put! :-) Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Aug 10 23:00:59 2000 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 00 13:00:59 -1000 Subject: SV: Nationalisms In-Reply-To: <01C002C4.C23B84E0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227060866.23782.16935394847747571822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Since this is definitely not classical Indology, I'll send the following > answer, but I don't think we should continue with this debate on the list. This will be my final message on this topic (which I did not start). > Raja wrote: > > While the British were able to maintain a > > "stiff upper lip" regarding the atrociously > > high death rate in India, it dropped sharply > > after the natives took charge. Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > In the same period, a similar trend took place in China. By 1990 Chinese > mortality level was less than one third of its previous level (down from > 2.2 to 0.7). This suggests that the British are not necessarily to be > blamed for the death rate. [...deleted...] > I would assume that the reduction in deaths depends upon various > factors such as the introduction of new medication developed after > the war, better health care etc. You might ask yourself two questions: Question 1: The death rate in India per 1000 in 1950 was 27.4. At the same time (1950) , what was the death rate in Britain itself? I don't know the answer because I couldn't find it on the web. But, ONE CENTURY EARLIER (in 1850), the death rate per 1000 in Britain was 20.8 (Source: http://www.aug.edu/~hishpv/World/Slides/W-E1.htm ) Doesn't that strike you as downright amazing? That the death rate in India in 1950 was 27.4, i.e., still about 30% higher than the death rate "back home" in Britain in 1850, ONE CENTURY EARLIER? The "big" causes of unnatural death in British India were starvation, cholera, typhoid, plague, malaria, childbirth, T.B., and influenza (I don't think I left out any big items). Of all these causes of death in India, the only one that can't occur in Britain is malaria. But quinine was discovered in 1820, and Ronald Ross identified mosquitoes as the carrier of malaria in 1897! So, the amazingly high death rate in India, and its rapid fall after 1950, can't simply be "new medication developed after the war", can it? Question 2: China's death rate in 1949 was 20.6 (Source: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~reed/hot/chinatab.html ) Isn't it amazing that the death rate in India in 1950, after one century of "peace" under the British, was 30% higher than the death rate in China, which had just "enjoyed" one century of forced opium addition, invasions by Britain, France, and Japan, unending civil wars, and horrendous massacres by the Japanese and others? The very best I can say is that the British government in India must have been stupendously, unimaginably, incomparably, stupid and incompetent. Whether you want to judge them more harshly is up to you. Talking of starvation deaths in British India, you might be interested in examining the history of periodic famines in British India: http://www.sulekha.com/articles/gpolya_austen.html During the latest of the British Indian famines, the Bengal Famine of 1943-44, in which about 4 million people died, ..."Churchill repeatedly opposed food for India and specifically intervened to block provision of 10,000 tons of grain offered by Canada." (Source: http://inac.org/IrishPeople/top/11_14_98/111498famine.html ) As I said before, I really don't blame the British. Defeated countries should expect the worst from their invaders. Ultimately, Indians have to accept the blame for letting such bad things happen to them. But it would be nice if foreigners can at least be aware that these bad things happened while the British were in India. Regards, Raja. From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Thu Aug 10 07:38:06 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 00 13:08:06 +0530 Subject: Q: Nehru-Gandhi dynasty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060850.23782.6441146181127434284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Sword of Truth website http://www.swordoftruth.com claims that Pandit Nehru, like Lenin, died due to syphilis. Does anybody know if this is correct ? Has any scientific analysis of Nehru's remains been done to determine if he did die in this manner ? Also, was Indira Gandhi really a high-school drop-out ? Did Rajiv and Sanjay really fail their exams as Sword of Truth says ? On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, Rustam Masalewala wrote: > The Sword-of-Truth stuff on Feroze Gandhi is mostly nonsense. Yes, it claims that the entire Nehru-Gandhi dynasty, starting from Pandit Nehru and incl. Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi and Sonia, were Muslims. I would also like to clarify to Westerners on this list that this is not true. A Muslim cannot have the surname `Gandhi' or `Nehru', they are definitely forbidden. It would have to be changed to Shaikh on conversion. To the best of my knowledge, Feroze Gandhi was a Parsi, but I have seen some websites claim that he was a Brahmin like Indira Nehru. Can anybody confirm what his ethnic background was ? Samar From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Aug 10 13:28:41 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 00 13:28:41 +0000 Subject: Rajaram's bull/Hindutva (response to BhG) Message-ID: <161227060862.23782.7535588756657584352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > > At 04:35 PM 08/06/2000 +0000, Bharat Gupt wrote: > > >The colonial era created a more restrictive and lexical definitions both > of Brahminism > >and the Hindu by restricting them to mean only those who accept the Vedas > and Upanishads > >as revelation. Whereas historically, Buddhists, Jains, Shaivs etc had all > accepted the > >var.na system... > > In the first part of your statement you refer to accepting the Vedas as > revelation, but then you mention Buddhism and Jainism and instead of > continuing to talk about whether the Vedas are considered as revealed or > not you talk about the varNas. Why should I continue to talk about Buddhists not accepting the Vedas. I have no colonial agenda. I am not trying to change history by saying that nastiks accepted the vedas. My post nowhere stated or implied that Buddhists etc., accepted the Vedas as Sruti/pramaa.na or aagama. But I drew attention to the fact that varna is not ONLY a Brahminical concept because it has been accepted by all indigenous people and here even by Muslims also as social hierarchy. The colonial approach has been to lay the sin of creating this hierarchy on the Brahmins and encouraging a politics of compensation as indicated in the last posts that even Marxism in India resulted not in class war but caste war. Neglecting this fact has led to the present day state where Brahminism is not even extant or a practice but a merely a political rhetoric for more caste war and classical studies continue to reinforce this rhetoric as they have not elaborated enough on the departure from smriti defined or lexical brahminical behaviour of the brahmins even in ancient India. I also tried to indicate in the two posts that colonial definition of "Hindu" (which now prevails) reduced the wider meaning of "Hindu" as a geographic cultural entity (from Persian Ind,Greek India, Islamic Hind/Hindostan/Mulke-Hindavi) to religious, i.e., the followers of the Vedas. The issue I raised was : Why were a host of other beliefs like var.na-ashram, re-incarnation, karmavaada, paralokavaada, apratyaksha-prmaa.na, validity of meditative truth whether called rta, kaivalya, buddhatva, nirva.na, or saayujya etc, shared by nearly all denominations of faiths of India (except Caravaakas) which also goes into the making of Hindu/Indian/Hindavii identity, ignored by the colonial scholarship ? Was this new categorisation, changing the definition from geographic-culltural to the religious Hindu (as the aastika) and the rest as its other, an administrative strategy for altering social behaviour of the governed ? Or should we say this not an indological concern !! Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Aug 10 18:46:11 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 00 14:46:11 -0400 Subject: Hindu names for Kashmiri Muslims (Was: Nehru-Gandhi dynasty) Message-ID: <161227060864.23782.3104940016464106256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The idea that the Nehrus were Muslims seems pretty absurd to me, but I want to take issue with one contention: <> Whether it's forbidden or not, I have met or read of Kashmiri Muslims with what one would usually consider Hindu family names, such as Bhat, or even Shaiva. Whether their families were recent converts or not I would not know. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Fri Aug 11 04:59:37 2000 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 00 18:59:37 -1000 Subject: Nationalisms In-Reply-To: <004b01c0033b$3ccd1180$1516893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227060878.23782.15776542550186544229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is positively my last message on this topic. On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Stephen Hodge wrote: > There was also a correspondingly high mortality rate among British > colonial administrators and others at least up until the end of the > C19th. I'd bet that no British administrator ever starved to death in a famine. Also, you say "correspondingly high mortality rate" at least till the end of the 19th century. But 1950 is 50 years after the end of the 19th century! > > So, the amazingly high death rate in India, and its > > rapid fall after 1950, can't simply be "new medication > > developed after the war", can it? > > Yes, but obviously the world of technology and medicine in 1950 was > very different to 1900. Indians weren't dying for lack of CAT scans! Simple things like "boil your drinking water" and "midwives, cut your nails and wash your hands" would have done wonders. No high tech required. But it would have required a serious effort to educate the natives. But the literacy rate in India in 1950 was 18% (eighteen percent). (Source: http://www.finmin.nic.in/eco/indi.htm ) At present, the literacy rate is about 63%. Once again, I'm more annoyed with the Indians than with the British. The Indians should have been more energetic in seeking literacy. Still, the British government comes across, AT BEST, as hopelessly incompetent. Best wishes, Raja. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Aug 11 02:20:38 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 00 19:20:38 -0700 Subject: "Rajaram the scientist" Message-ID: <161227060871.23782.9379575167901976353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A little expanded data on N.S. Rajaram's non-popular writings: I've pointed out that Rajaram's boasts (in the ironically titled "Sword of Truth" Webpage) that "For more than ten years, he was one of America's best-known workers in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics" have been *vastly* inflated. This is noteworthy since those claims are linked in his autobiographical profile to similar claims concerning his "decipherment" of Harappan -- which we're told is "the most important breakthrough of our time in the study of Indian history and culture." http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/articles.html Today I read all the articles ascribed to Rajaram in the two big AI bibliographical databases noted in earlier posts. The object was to doublecheck to make sure that the footnotes didn't contain any substantial references missed in the bibliographies. The most comprehensive of those databases turns out to be the "ISI Web of Science," which is only available via a major research libraries. The Collection of Computer Science Bibliographies (on the Web) catches one earlier paper from 1980. All but one of the papers/notes listed in those bibliographies were published in InTech and ISA Transactions -- two trade journals issued by the Instrument Society of America, with which Dr. Rajaram was affiliated. Rajaram's footnotes list four other papers/notes that don't show up in the online bibliographies. Two of these un-indexed papers were published in a defunct trade monthly, _Robotics Engineering_, which I haven't seen. Two other un-indexed papers refer to contract work or conference proceedings. A bio at the end of a very short InTech report from April 1986 credits Rajaram with being the "author of 15 papers on robotics and AI as well as the book _Design of Expert Systems on the Personal Computer_." The Reference Librarian at the Stanford Engineering Library couldn't find a book by this title in the Stanford Library, combined University of California library systems (checked via Melvyl), the Library of Congress, or international research library networked database known as RLIN (Research Libraries Information Network) and the World Catalog (OCLC). (RLIN and OCLC are what they use to check for Interlibrary Loan.) Maybe Rajaram wrote the book but it was never published. Maybe it was privately printed. Unless the Engineering Reference Librarian and RLIN and OCLC are in error -- which I doubt -- the book hasn't left a trace. Someone else can check if they want. Another InTech bio following a one-and-a-half-page nontechnical story from April 1987 credits Rajaram with "over 20 articles" -- five more than the previous year -- and says that he is writing a book entitled _Intelligent Manufacturing Systems_. Maybe these new papers were contract reports or conference proceedings, which would explain why they aren't indexed in the science bibliographies. I assume that this book was never finished (and, of course, that happens). In any event, like the earlier book title, this one doesn't show up in the Library of Congress, RLIN, or World Catalog (OCLC). Rajaram could have changed the title, of course, but no technical books under any other title are credited to him in the RLIN or World Catalog (OCLC) either, so far as I can tell. To sum up, following this more careful search: Before Rajaram started writing rightwing books on Indian history he *did* do engineering work in robotics and expert systems. His papers list him as being in the Dept. of Industrial Engineering at the U. of Houston until around 1992. But to claim that in the 80s he was "one of America's best-known workers in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics" -- putting him in a class with Sejnowski, McCarthy, the Churchlands, Rumelhart, McClellan, Arbib, Feldman, Feigenbaum, Winograd, Hinton, Munro, Jordan, Charniak, Winston, and other workers in that period. -- goes *WAY* over the top. Further on Rajaram's scientific ideas, refer again to: http://home.ica.net/~roymanju/Rajaram.htm From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Aug 11 02:22:59 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 00 03:22:59 +0100 Subject: Nationalisms Message-ID: <161227060869.23782.10353314359482167537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Raja wrote: > > > > While the British were able to maintain a > > > "stiff upper lip" regarding the atrociously > > > high death rate in India, it dropped sharply > > > after the natives took charge. There was also a correspondingly high mortality rate among British colonial administrators and others at least up until the end of the C19th. I wonder if there are any estimates for pre-colonial death rates. Was the Moghul government any more benign in its administration than the British were ? Besides, India seems to have been a dangerous place for one's health for centuries -- if you read I-xing, the C7th CE Chinese Buddhist pilgrim, he states that 50 of the 54 Chinese monks he knew residing in India died there of disease and other unnatural causes. > So, the amazingly high death rate in India, and its > rapid fall after 1950, can't simply be "new medication > developed after the war", can it? Yes, but obviously the world of technology and medicine in 1950 was very different to 1900. Most health improvements -- sanitation etc -- in Western Europe date from the last decade or so of the C19th and required heavy capital investment. I do not intend to excuse the actions or lack of action by British colonial administrators but it seems to me that governments in Europe were fairly busy killing their own populations during that time in two world wars -- over 20% of the 50 years was wasted in this way, which coupled with the depression in the late 20s/30s might explain things a bit. Also, health care in the UK is actually deteriorating at present -- despite all its promises Blair's Labour government have not done much in the past 4 years to improve the disastrous situation they inherited from the earlier Tories. It all boils down to funding priorities. > But it would be nice if foreigners can at least be aware > that these bad things happened while the British > were in India. I guess "bad things" have sadly always happen when one people get subjugated by another. I wonder what the Neanderthals would have to say about Homo sapiens sapiens -- pity there aren't any Neanderthals around to tell us. If you accept the "out-of-Africa" theory, then since we are all descended from the first Homo sapiens sapiens who moved out of Africa, the ancestors of all of us would have been involved to a degree in atrocities of one kind or another. Also, some of the points you have raised have been aired in documentaries on TV here in the UK so those who wish to know should be aware of them. Actually, it seems to be quite fashionable to "have a go" at the British [ = English] these days if we look at the one-sided, distorted or anachronistic versions of history emanating from Hollywood recently. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 11 04:45:52 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 00 04:45:52 +0000 Subject: Arka- the Sun/Calotropis Gigantea Message-ID: <161227060876.23782.6492968564253693619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Could any one kindly clarify as to whether there is any occurance of term >arka in association with either the Sun or Calotropis Gigantea in Vedic >Literature? arka in relation to light (sun rays, lightning, fire) is found in RV and in bRhadAraNyaka upanishad. Calotropis is a ubiquitous wild plant in India. Quite hardy, needing very little water, so you will find it growing even in the most rocky areas. The leaves have religious significance, and are called Aditya/ravi/sUrya-patra. On ratha saptamI, commemorating the day bhIshma actually died, seven arka leaves are supposed to be used with one's bathing. Again, there is a relation to the sun, as this day comes soon after the beginning of the sun's movement to the north. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From balakrishnanraju at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 11 08:42:40 2000 From: balakrishnanraju at HOTMAIL.COM (balakrishnan raju) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 00 08:42:40 +0000 Subject: Arka- the Sun/Calotropis Gigantea Message-ID: <161227060873.23782.10331121528928749892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology Members, Bhagavad Purana mentions 'arka' to be 'belonging to or relating to Sun' and for that reason Karna is called 'arki'.Varaha-mihira's Brihajjataka explains 'arka' as 'coming from the plant Calotropis Gigantea (erukku/erukkalai in Tamil). Could any one kindly clarify as to whether there is any occurance of term arka in association with either the Sun or Calotropis Gigantea in Vedic Literature? Thanking You all Regards, R.Balakrishnan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Aug 11 14:35:04 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 00 10:35:04 -0400 Subject: Hindu names for Kashmiri Muslims Message-ID: <161227060887.23782.10046475518031274041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> The man I know who was Muslim and named Shaiva (a clearly religious name and not an occupation name like Sethi) was in his twenties in 1979, clearly before any recent forced conversions. I know of a case of a Kashmiri Pundit converting to Islam in the 50's because he was in love with a Muslim girl. In his case I don't know what name changes he made. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri Aug 11 05:57:49 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 00 11:27:49 +0530 Subject: Hindu names for Kashmiri Muslims (Was: Nehru-Gandhi dynasty) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060880.23782.385170803438594768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > The idea that the Nehrus were Muslims seems pretty absurd to me, but I > want to take issue with one contention: ... Whether it's forbidden or > not, I have met or read of Kashmiri Muslims .. with what one would > usually consider Hindu family names, such as Bhat, or even Shaiva. Yes, that is correct. some Kashmiri Muslims follow the anomalous custom of preserving their Hindu names - Dar, Bhat etc. As a result, their `conversion' is often doubted by more Orthodox Muslims. It is said that these persons are converts from the recent 1990s jihad. Those with authentic Muslim names are said to be the ancestral Kashmiri Muslims. But despite that, `Nehru' still does not fall in this category. There are no Muslim Gandhis and Nehrus. So the Hindutva site (http://swordoftruth.com) claiming that Pandit Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi were Muslims is wrong. Best Regards, Samar From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Fri Aug 11 07:17:16 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 00 12:47:16 +0530 Subject: Hindu names for Kashmiri Muslims Message-ID: <161227060882.23782.11551045345540455304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are many instances of Muslims' retaining their pre-conversion (high-caste) surnames even after coversion.That is how you have Bhats and D(h)ars among Muslims. The Pakistani journalist Najam Sethi has a Punjabi surname.There was a Pakistani journal during the Bangla Desh war , Rao Farman Ali;Rao denotes his Ahir caste.More generally, Khatris converting to Islam have been called Khojas. Rajesh Kochhar : >The idea that the Nehrus were Muslims seems pretty absurd to me, but I >want to take issue with one contention: > ><definitely forbidden. It would have to be changed to Shaikh >on conversion.>> > >Whether it's forbidden or not, I have met or read of Kashmiri Muslims >with what one would usually consider Hindu family names, such as Bhat, >or even Shaiva. Whether their families were recent converts or not I >would not know. > >Allen Thrasher > > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > >Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE >Southern Asia Section LJ-150 >Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 >Library of Congress U.S.A. >tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 >Email: athr at loc.gov > >The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the >Library of Congress. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Aug 11 21:46:37 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 00 14:46:37 -0700 Subject: The "Net of Indra" Message-ID: <161227060895.23782.11469780383452381140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm writing an article on extreme variants of a common premodern cosmological idea -- that each part or "level" of reality in some way reflects every other. I've traced the development of this idea in late-ancient and medieval thought in different old world societies. I'm now interested in tracing its *earliest* roots in Chinese, Greek, and Indian commentarial traditions. In India, one later variant shows up as the "Net of Indra," which is discussed in the AvataMsaka Suutra. The text was translated into Chinese in the 5th century CE and was central to the Huayan school in China and Kegon school in Japan. Each node of the Indra's net, viewed as a cosmic symbol, was said to be decorated with a jewel that reflected not only every other jewel but also every *reflection* of each jewel in every other -- and so on to infinity. Similar metaphors evolved independently in mature commentarial traditions in other old world socities at predictable points. Exactly how they emerged depended on a variety of exegetical factors. In Indian traditions, I've traced precursors of this kind of idea (not the "Net of Indra" itself) as far back as the BraahmaNas. I'm now searching for *extreme* ideas of this sort as *early* as possible in Indian (and hopefully Vedic) traditions. Does anyone know any good candidates? =Examples of *extreme* anticipations of these ideas (e.g., elaborate correlations of directions, numbers, colors, sounds, Vedic metres, emotions, etc.) would also be appreciated. (I emphasize "extreme" here since I know lots of garden-variety Vedic examples.) Also, if anyone knows of early instances of the "Net of Indra" idea, or knows anything about its origins, please let me know. Thanks in advance, Steve Farmer From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Fri Aug 11 15:50:37 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 00 16:50:37 +0100 Subject: Q: Nehru-Gandhi dynasty Message-ID: <161227060892.23782.3512657834211313436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe the immediate cause of Jawaharlal Nehru's death was an aortic aneurysm. Since Nehru was cremated, and the ashes scattered, it would not be possible to study his remains. Feroz Gandhi was Parsi. Similar sources to the gossip mentioned also have stories of how one of Nehru's sisters was having an affair with a Muslim, and how the Mahatma set spies on her and so on. I've never been able to substantiate any of that -- its basically nonsense. -arun gupta From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Aug 11 12:55:37 2000 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Professor D N Jha) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 00 18:25:37 +0530 Subject: Hindu names for Kashmiri Muslims (Was: Nehru-Gandhi dynasty) Message-ID: <161227060885.23782.18149351308393662653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could we derive the surname Gandhi from the word 'gandhika'(perfumers) which occurs in the inscriptions of the early centuries BC/AD ? D.N.Jha ----- Original Message ----- From: Samar Abbas To: Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Hindu names for Kashmiri Muslims (Was: Nehru-Gandhi dynasty) > On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > > The idea that the Nehrus were Muslims seems pretty absurd to me, but I > > want to take issue with one contention: ... Whether it's forbidden or > > not, I have met or read of Kashmiri Muslims .. with what one would > > usually consider Hindu family names, such as Bhat, or even Shaiva. > > Yes, that is correct. some Kashmiri Muslims follow the anomalous custom of > preserving their Hindu names - Dar, Bhat etc. As a result, their > `conversion' is often doubted by more Orthodox Muslims. It is said that > these persons are converts from the recent 1990s jihad. Those with > authentic Muslim names are said to be the ancestral Kashmiri Muslims. > > But despite that, `Nehru' still does not fall in this category. There are > no Muslim Gandhis and Nehrus. So the Hindutva site > (http://swordoftruth.com) claiming that Pandit Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi > were Muslims is wrong. > > Best Regards, > Samar > From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Aug 11 15:02:47 2000 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Professor D N Jha) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 00 20:32:47 +0530 Subject: Hindu Names for Kashmiri Muslims Message-ID: <161227060889.23782.10918640409822869040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could we derive the surname Gandhi from the word 'gandhika'(perfumers) which occurs in the inscriptions of the early centuries BC/AD ? D.N.Jha ----- Original Message ----- From: Samar Abbas To: Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Hindu names for Kashmiri Muslims (Was: Nehru-Gandhi dynasty) > On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > > The idea that the Nehrus were Muslims seems pretty absurd to me, but I > > want to take issue with one contention: ... Whether it's forbidden or > > not, I have met or read of Kashmiri Muslims .. with what one would > > usually consider Hindu family names, such as Bhat, or even Shaiva. > > Yes, that is correct. some Kashmiri Muslims follow the anomalous custom of > preserving their Hindu names - Dar, Bhat etc. As a result, their > `conversion' is often doubted by more Orthodox Muslims. It is said that > these persons are converts from the recent 1990s jihad. Those with > authentic Muslim names are said to be the ancestral Kashmiri Muslims. > > But despite that, `Nehru' still does not fall in this category. There are > no Muslim Gandhis and Nehrus. So the Hindutva site > (http://swordoftruth.com) claiming that Pandit Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi > were Muslims is wrong. > > Best Regards, > Samar > From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 11 21:59:44 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 00 21:59:44 +0000 Subject: The "Net of Indra" Message-ID: <161227060898.23782.3485853152543067704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >appreciated. (I emphasize "extreme" here since I know lots of >garden-variety Vedic examples.) > I would suggest numerous passages in bRhadAraNyaka as a starting point, e.g. 11 rudras = 10 prANas in the human body + AtmA as the 11th; the discussion of sAvitrI to be recited in the gAyatrI meter, not anushTubh, etc. Zankara's commentary on brahmasUtra 2. 4. 5ff conveniently collects many such references and discusses them in some detail. Also see surezvara's vArttika on the pancIkaraNa text, where there is an extensive list of adhidaiva, adhibhUta, adhyAtma correspondences. And then, muNDaka 2. 1. 8, where the key number is 7. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Sat Aug 12 07:00:26 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 00 12:30:26 +0530 Subject: Hindu names for Kashmiri Muslims (Was: Nehru-Gandhi dynasty) Message-ID: <161227060901.23782.16929064102272770479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: Professor D N Jha >Could we derive the surname Gandhi from the word 'gandhika'(perfumers) which >occurs in the inscriptions of the early centuries BC/AD ? >D.N.Jha *********** In school Hindi, we had a couplet: Rey Gandhi[short a] mati-andh tu ittar sunghavat kaahi Kar phulel ko aachman meetho kahat saraahi Oh Gandhi, why do you ask dim-wits to smell your perfume who loick it and say it is sweet. Gaandhi could come from Gandhi, but I remember reading somewhere that the word meant grocer. rajesh kochhar From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Sat Aug 12 22:11:14 2000 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 00:11:14 +0200 Subject: Q: old Tamil materials Message-ID: <161227060903.23782.14460358827774746337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, 1. Iravatham Mahadevan mentioned in an interview given in January 1998, that he is working on a book on the earliest Tamil inscriptions. Has the book appeared yet? Where? 2. What are the standard materials (esp. grammar, but also dictionary and texts) to study old Tamil? Any information is most welcome. Yours, Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa, PhD associate professor of philosophy E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Aug 13 04:54:33 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 00:54:33 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060906.23782.420881137845089881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a posting on Aug.3, 2000, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann said, "Much of the current attack on "Western" Indology seems to be part of a strategy that aims at defending Brahminical traditions and institutions against a perceived menacing threat." In this connection, the following may be of interest. In his book, "Aryan Invasion of India" (1993), Rajaram says the following: <> (p. 25) (to be continued) Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Aug 13 04:58:04 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 00:58:04 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060909.23782.11137523732209738126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his 1995 work, "The Politics of History", Rajaram included virtually the same piece as given in the earlier posting with some very minor modifications. The last sentence, however, was replaced with the following. < recognize this elementary fact and keep on repeating nineteenth century missionary propaganda in their 'scholarly' work.>> (p. 103-104) Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Aug 13 11:23:39 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 11:23:39 +0000 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060912.23782.4511230791743462141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> vsundaresan at hotmail.com wrote: >If these people are a serious >concern, then the Indologist of Western birth needs to figure out >how to win the hearts of the modern, English-speaking, urban- >dwelling, Indian, who is most probably Hindu, often in a technical >or scientific profession. Modern Indologists show that no horse or sanskrit are visible through their research in the India of the ivc age. How will they entice certain prominent members of the Indian ruling elites who propagate this ideology which is quite contrary to Indological findings? Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Aug 13 15:27:19 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 11:27:19 -0400 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060920.23782.15704357310487884868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Modern Indologists show that no horse or sanskrit are visible >>through their research in the India of the ivc age. How will >>they entice certain prominent members of the Indian ruling elites First of all, flattery and 'enticing' is not exactly our job description: Research, presenting the Universitas litterarum, 'even' Veritas (official motto here), not PR. -- Nor is 'enticing' always appreciated by the 'ruling elites'. Some of them, at least, are clever enough to distinguish PR, Bull(s) / Horse tale(s) from genuine research efforts. And are used to sycophants any day. 'Even' students see through this: I remember the case of one student of Indian extraction (now tenured), who left because of a strong feeling that there was too much of, quote, "just praising of India"... >Rajaram & co. are part of India's ruling elites?? That is >news to me, and to many others on this list. To many, but not to all! Rajaram recently boasted to some of us that he has many friends in the Indian Government and that the Union Government has "advised" the National Book Trust to bring out his "popular book" 'From Sarasvati River to the Indus Script' in English and thirteen other languages." (Sanskrit seems to be missing? -- I hope the Book Trust will at least fill in the article!) May Sarasvati --the goddess-- help India! Or better, Manjusri, with his jnaanakhaDga... (not the Houston/Texas one, obviously). -------------------------------------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Aug 13 11:55:43 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 11:55:43 +0000 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060914.23782.13489583314334471894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Modern Indologists show that no horse or sanskrit are visible >through their research in the India of the ivc age. How will >they entice certain prominent members of the Indian ruling elites Rajaram & co. are part of India's ruling elites?? That is news to me, and to many others on this list. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Aug 13 13:56:15 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 13:56:15 +0000 Subject: buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227060917.23782.8769536201883960740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed or >was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be >so kind to provide relevant information/references? AthanUr(=attan2Ur) amman temple in Salem district, Tamil Nadu is a place where 100s of buffalos were sacrificed in annual festivals. After the Hindu Religious Charities & Endowments (HRCE) board of the TN govt. took over the administration of village goddess temples (scores of them) eyeing on the income, the animal sacrifices were banned from 1940s or so. Of course, Pallava, Chola & Pandya temples are never without a Durga standing on a severed buffalo head. Literature like CilappatikAram speaks about the buffalo demon, he is called Vikkiraman in tamil stalapurANams. District manuals of the British period, E. Thurston's volumes on castes & tribes etc., will have that information. Toponyms may be another source. Mysore is named after Mahisha-asura. Erumai-veTTi-pALayam near ISRO's Sriharikotta, etc., Regards, N. Ganesan Hiltebeitel, Alf. "The Indus Valley 'Proto-Siva', Reexamined through Reflections on the Goddess, the Buffalo, and the Symbolism of Va-hanas." Anthropos 73:5-6 (1978):767-97 Parpola, A. The metamorphoses of Mahi.sa Asura and PajApati, p. 275-308 1992, Ritual, State and History in South Asia, Leiden: E. J. Brill -------------- Beck, Brenda, The Goddess and the Demon: A local South Indian festival and its wider context, 1979 Biardeau, Madeleine, L'arbe sami et le buffle sacrificiel, in Autour de la d'eesse Hindoue, 1981 Shulman, David, The murderous bride: Tamil versions of the myth of Devi and the Buffalo-Demon, History of Religion, v. 16, no. 2, 1976 -------------------- ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mlbd at VSNL.COM Sun Aug 13 17:18:04 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (MLBD) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 22:48:04 +0530 Subject: Q: old Tamil materials Message-ID: <161227060922.23782.2127184161335001306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, UA, Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011)-3974826,3918335,3911985,3932747 (011)-5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax: (011)-3930689, 5797221 Email:mlbd at vsnl.com , gloryindia at poboxes.com Website: http://www.mlbd.com ************************************************************* God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ********************************************************* ----- Original Message ----- From: Ferenc Ruzsa To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 3:41 AM Subject: Q: old Tamil materials > Friends, > > 1. Iravatham Mahadevan mentioned in an interview given in January 1998, that > he is working on a book on the earliest Tamil inscriptions. Has the book > appeared yet? Where? > 2. What are the standard materials (esp. grammar, but also dictionary and > texts) to study old Tamil? > Any information is most welcome. > > Yours, > Ferenc > -------------------------------------------------------- > Ferenc Ruzsa, PhD > associate professor of philosophy > E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest > e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu > From mlbd at VSNL.COM Sun Aug 13 17:19:46 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (MLBD) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 22:49:46 +0530 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060924.23782.3027400206404445440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, UA, Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011)-3974826,3918335,3911985,3932747 (011)-5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax: (011)-3930689, 5797221 Email:mlbd at vsnl.com , gloryindia at poboxes.com Website: http://www.mlbd.com ************************************************************* God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ********************************************************* ----- Original Message ----- From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 5:25 PM Subject: Re: SV: Rajaram's bull > >Modern Indologists show that no horse or sanskrit are visible > >through their research in the India of the ivc age. How will > >they entice certain prominent members of the Indian ruling elites > > Rajaram & co. are part of India's ruling elites?? That is > news to me, and to many others on this list. > > Vidyasankar > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 14 13:06:53 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 08:06:53 -0500 Subject: SV: Witzels's scholarly translations Message-ID: <161227060930.23782.18234578873372030581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Michael Witzel > >May Sarasvati --the goddess-- help India! > > IMHO, it is you who definitely needs Sarasvati's help, since you have indulged in mistranslations to prop up your europeanist dogma. It is important to note that one of these self styled 'objective scholars' had the integrity to come forward and point out your mistakes. Wheras, they had no problem with criticizing Rajaram. Considering the fact that you have boasted "If we can write Vedic texts that well, we can also translate theem". It was left to S.Talageri to expose your machinations. It seems to me that the entrenched good old boy network chose to circle its wagons like the mighty IE's of yore. Refreshingly, a couple of open-minded academics - whose commitment to truth is probably higher, have chosen to point out the truth. Regards, Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 14 09:39:19 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 09:39:19 +0000 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060928.23782.13283421482649606899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Modern Indologists show that no horse or sanskrit are visible >>through their research in the India of the ivc age. How will >>they entice certain prominent members of the Indian ruling elites >>who propagate this ideology which is quite contrary to Indological >>findings? vsundaresan at hotmail.com wrote: >Rajaram & co. are part of India's ruling elites?? That is >news to me, and to many others on this list. Sure, Brahmin authors like Rajaram are part of the ruling elites. In his book, "What Congress and Gandhi Have Done to the Untouchables" (published in 1945), Dr. B. R. Ambedkar writes, "History shows that the Brahmin has always had other classes as his allies to whom he was ready to accord the status of a governing class provided they were prepared to work with him in subordinate co-operation. In ancient and medieval times he made such an alliance with the Kshatriyas or the warrior class and the two ruled the masses, indeed ground them down, the Brahmin with his pen and the Kshatriya with his sword. At present, the Brahmin has made an alliance with the Vaishya class called Banias. The shifting of this alliance from Kshatriya to Bania is natural. In these days of commerce money is more important than sword. That is one reason for this change in party alignment. The second reason is the need for money to run the political machine. Money can come only from the Bania. It is the Bania who is financing the Congress largely because Mr. Gandhi is a Bania and also because he has realized that money invested in Politics gives large dividends. Those who have any doubts in the matter might well do well to read what Mr. Gandhi told Mr. Louis Fisher on June 6, 1942?.. For this reason, it is impossible for the Brahmin to exclude the Bania from the position of a governing class. In fact, he has established not merely a working but a cordial alliance with the Bania. The result is that the governing class in India today is a Brahmin-Bania instead of Brahmin-Kshatriya combine as it used to be." (pp.206-8) S. Palaniappan posted Rajaram comparing the Brahmins to Japanese Samurai. In "Aryan Invasion of India" (1993), Rajaram says the following:<< The very strong anti-Brahmin bias that dominates much of nineteenth century writing on India, and even today, must be attributed at least in part to the political and missionary interests of the era. Though the Brahmin community of the period was hardly free from blame, it was not the unmitigated evil that the British authorities and missionaries portrayed it to be. If it was conservative and reactionary like the Japanese samurai, it also took the lead in the social, educational and cultural reforms in the nineteenth century known as Indian Renaissance. The British saw the Brahmins as a threat while missionaries saw them as obstacles.>> (p. 25) Rajaram's comparison of Brahmins with the Japanese Samurai has been countered by Dr. Ambedkar long ago. It is also relevant to the governing class issue. "It would be instructive to compare the attitude of the governing class in India with the attitude taken by the governing class in other countries in times of national crisis such as we are passing through today?As students of Japanese history know, there were four classes in Japanese Society(1) The Damiyos, (2) The Samurai, (3) The Hemin or the Common Folk and (4) The Eta or the outcastes standing one above the other in an order of graded inequality. At the bottom were the Eta numbering a good many thousands. Above the Eta were the Hemin numbering 25/30 millions. Over them were the Samurai who numbered about 2 millions and who had the power of life and death over the Hemin. At the Apex were the Damiyos or the Feudal Barons who exercised sway over the rest of the three classes and who numbered only 300. The Damiyos and the Samurai realized that it was impossible to transform this feudal society with its class composition and class rights into a modern nation with equality of citizenship. Accordingly the Damiyos charged with the spirit of nationalism and anxious not to stand in the way of national unity, came forward to surrender their privileges and to merge themselves in the common mass of people?How does the governing class in India compare in this behalf with the governing class in Japan? Just the opposite." (Ambedkar, pp. 225-6). Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From d53 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Mon Aug 14 09:04:39 2000 From: d53 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Thomas Lehmann) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 11:04:39 +0200 Subject: Q: old Tamil materials Message-ID: <161227060926.23782.16226365878473768237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: > Friends, > > 2. What are the standard materials (esp. grammar, but also dictionary and > texts) to study old Tamil? > Any information is most welcome. > Textbook: Vacek, J. and S.V. Subramanian A Tamil reader: Introducing Sangam Literature Madras: International Institute of Tamil Studies, 1989 Grammar: Old Tamil (by Thomas Lehmann) in: Sanford Steever (ed.) The Dravidian Languages London: Routledge, 1998 ______________________________________________________ Thomas Lehmann South Asia Institute of the University of Heidelberg Dept .of Indology Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, 69120 Heidelberg, Germany e-mail: d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de phone: ++49-6221-548908 fax: ++49-6221-544998 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Aug 14 15:38:06 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 11:38:06 -0400 Subject: SV: Witzels's scholarly translations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060937.23782.4299029718925480774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Su???Brahmanya writes: >IMHO, it is you who definitely needs Sarasvati's help, since you >have indulged in mistranslations to prop up your europeanist dogma. I usually do not reply to innuendo (sadbhir vivAdaM maitrIM ca...), but this is a direct as it gets: Yes, I readily admit to: misplacing a parenthesis by *one word* in a translation of BSS 18.44. That's about the extent of it. Even Homer nods. But: Europeanist? Dogma? Come on, Su??Brahmanya, in which world are you living? -- Get real! Anyhow, many thanks for so indulgently pointing this out. CETERUM CENSEO: Su???brahmanya continues to invent quotes ("circle its wagons like the mighty IE's of yore"??) by re-asserting, and at the same time conveniently forgetting that he had promised to find my "Vedic panzer" ... He will have to change his prefix from Su- to Dur-. Last chance! Come on, Su???brahmanya, after putting out LIBEL several times, it is your duty now to go to the next library and check out things. Even a little internet search will do. Just to repeat the same accusation (also, recently, on other lists!) does not make it true. Politicians' talk. Satyam vada! And now, karma kuru! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- NB: Today's Sloka from Utah : subhAShitaM: sadbhireva sahAsIta sadbhirkurvIta sa~NgamaM | sadbhirvivAdaM maitrIM cha nAsadbhiH ki~nchidAcharet | - subhAShitaratna bhA.NDAgAraM ------------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 14 14:27:27 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 14:27:27 +0000 Subject: Q: old Tamil materials Message-ID: <161227060935.23782.1424655607685314143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor, My old posting dated 1-jul-1997. Regards, N. Ganesan RE: Learning Tamil ******************* Here are some self-study tools to acquire Tamil, (in addition to the more modern computer websites provided by Dr. Thomas Lehmann). Good Luck, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov a) G. Sankaranarayanan, A programmed course in Tamil. Central Inst. of Indian Languages, Mysore, 1994, 401 p. b) Lawrence, S. Jean Handbook Tamil: an autoinstructional course, Int. Inst. of Tamil studies, Madras, 1988, 500 p. c) Sowbhagyalakshmi Vaidyanathan, Tamil newspaper reader. (tamil ceytittal vacakam) Kensington, Maryland, 1990, 432 p. d) Author: Sundaram, N. Deiva. Title: Tamil, an auto instructional course / N. Deiva Sundaram, A. Gopal. 1st [ed.] Madras [India] : International Institute of Tamil Studies, [1984] Description: xiv, 223 p. : ill. ; 21 cm. Notes: Text in Tamil; introductory material in English. "Febrauary [sic], 1984"--T.p. verso. Subjects: Tamil language -- Study and teaching -- Foreign speakers. Tamil language -- Spoken Tamil. e) S. Rajaram A intensive course in Tamil: dialogues, drills, exercises, vocabulary, grammar and word index. Central Institute of Indian Languages, Mysore, 1979, 842 p. f) Nataraca Pillai, Na. Classified recall vocabulary in Tamil / N. Nadaraja Pillai. Mysore : Central Institute of Indian Languages, 1990. Series title: CIIL recall vocabulary series ; 2. g) Author: Nataraca Pillai, Na. Title: A guide for advanced learners of Tamil / N. Nadaraja Pillai. Mysore : Central Institute of Indian Languages, 1986. Description: xvi, 236 p. ; 22 cm. Series: Central Institute of Indian Languages occational sic monograph Subjects: Tamil language -- Textbooks for foreign speakers -- English. h) Author: Nataraca Pillai, Na. Title: Pi_lai ayvu : mo_li ka_rpittalil oru putiya parvai = Error analysis : a new approach in language teaching / Na. Nataraca Pillai, Ca. Vimala. Maicur : Te_n_nintiya Mo_likali_n Payi_r_ru Maiyam, Intiya Mo_likali_n Natuvan Ni_ruva_nam, 1981. Description: ix, 133 p. ; 22 cm. i) Author: Subbu Reddiar, Nallappa, 1917- Title: Tami_l payi_r_rum mu_rai. [E_lutiyavar] N. Cuppurettiyar. i.e. 2d ed.] Tirunelveli, Es. Ar. Cuppiramaniya Pillai [1964] Description: xxvi, 689 p. port. 19 cm. j) Asher, R. E. Tamil / R.E. Asher. Amsterdam : North-Holland, c1982. k) Author: Asher, R. E. comp. Title: A Tamil prose reader; selections from contemporary Tamil prose with notes and glossary by R. E. Asher and R. Radhakrishnan. Cambridge [Eng.] University Press, 1971. Description: x, 237 p. 23 cm. l) Author: Pattanayak, Debi Prasanna, 1931- Title: Advanced Tamil reader / D. P. Pattanayak, M. S. Thirumalai, K. Rangan. Mysore : Central Institute of Indian Languages, 1974- Description: v. ; 25 cm. m) Author: Pope, G. U. (George Uglow), 1820-1908. Title: A handbook of the Tamil language : a Tamil prose reader. New Delhi : Marwah, 1982 Description: 124 p n) Author: Rajaram, S. Title: Tamil phonetic reader [by] S. Rajaram. Mysore, Central Institute of Indian Languages [1972] Description: viii, 82 p. illus. 23 cm. o) Author: Schiffman, Harold F. Title: A Reader for advanced spoken Tamil / Harold F. Schiffman. Washington : U.S. Dept. of Health, Education and Welfare, Institute of International Studies, 1971. p) Shanmugam Pillai, M 1919- A Tamil reader for beginners. [1st ed. Chidambaram? S. Muthu Chidambaram, 1966-68. q) Author: Shanmugam Pillai, M 1919- Title: A Tamil reader for beginners. [1st ed. Chidambaram? S. Muthu Chidambaram, 1966-68. Description: 2 v. 14 x 23 cm. r) Author: Vacek, J. (Jaroslav) Title: A Tamil reader, introducing sangam literature / J. Vacek, S.V. Subramanian. 1st ed. Ce_n_nai : Ulakat Tami_laraycci Ni_ruva_nam, 1989. Description: 2 v. ; 22 cm. ****************************************************************************** ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Aug 14 13:59:55 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 14:59:55 +0100 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060933.23782.9082367154866060246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor Witzel wrote : Rajaram recently boasted to some of us that he has many friends in the Indian Government and that the Union Government has "advised" the National Book Trust to bring out his "popular book" 'From Sarasvati River to the Indus Script' in English and thirteen other languages." (Sanskrit seems to be missing? -- I hope the Book Trust will at least fill in the article!) You have convinced us that Rajaram is boastful and possibly untruthful. So perhaps R's claim of "friends in the Indian Government" is untrue as well. I wouldn't lose sleep over it. If Rajaram is not boasting, the ensuing fight to preserve the integrity of academia in India will do a world of good. Such values are never granted from above; they are won from below. A people who are not willing to fight for it do not deserve it. -arun gupta From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Mon Aug 14 19:34:37 2000 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 15:34:37 -0400 Subject: Circumcision in Indian literature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060941.23782.2297190107618027976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Phillip Ernest has written as follows: >years, I don't even know if there are references in that most obvious >source, but I think there must be, at least to male circumcision. Why? Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid back. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 14 18:11:24 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 18:11:24 +0000 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060939.23782.11188470663368372651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Sure, Brahmin authors like Rajaram are part of the ruling elites. > To assume that a thread across a man's shoulder gives him political power in India, when he lives in the USA, is too simplistic, to say the least. No matter what may have been the case some centuries ago, I wish people would pay some attention to the real world here and now, when it comes to such things. If some people go berserk with their Occidentophobia, it looks like others have a deep case of Brahmanophobia. Ground reality is much more complicated, you know. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Tue Aug 15 01:11:33 2000 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 18:11:33 -0700 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060945.23782.17098601318370159524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > If some people go berserk with their Occidentophobia, it looks like others > have a deep case of Brahmanophobia. As tomorrow's version control hurrees towards us, I find that the Brahmanophobyness of the esteemed list members is indeed getting to be terrific. -Srini. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Tue Aug 15 02:05:32 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 19:05:32 -0700 Subject: Yoga in Early Thailand Message-ID: <161227060948.23782.12910216156701044095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could any list members offer clues of direct reference to yoga in early Thailand/Siam? I have only "heard" that there were relations between yogis/rishis and the early Thai/Siamese courts. So far, Kamaleswar Bhattacharya?s essay ?The Religions of Ancient Cambodia? (1997) has proved invaluable in establishing the existence of yoga in Cambodia in the ancient period. With gratitude. Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Mon Aug 14 20:31:39 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 21:31:39 +0100 Subject: Gandhi (was: Re: Hindu names for Muslims ) Message-ID: <161227060943.23782.12268823147474634557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gandhi certainly means a perfumer. Families in several trading communities can have this name, including Oswal and Khandelwal. Mahatma Gandhi was a Modh. There is a Rajasthani community (Bijavargi) that has had selling perfumes etc as the main occupation. Some of them also have the family name Gandhi. >>Could we derive the surname Gandhi from the word 'gandhika'(perfumers) >>which occurs in the inscriptions of the early centuries BC/AD ? >>D.N.Jha >Gaandhi could come from Gandhi, but I remember reading somewhere that the >word meant grocer. >rajesh kochhar The common term for grocer is Modi. Regarding circumcision, I think it was never practiced by ancient Hindus. It probably originated from the Egyptians. In India the practice is uniquely associated with the Muslims. However some Hindus in Rajasthan practice it (due to Muslim influence). Yashwant From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Aug 15 02:27:35 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 22:27:35 -0400 Subject: bull on brahmanism Message-ID: <161227060950.23782.16796497308058886445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NG> The result is that the governing class in India today is a Brahmin-Bania instead of Brahmin-Kshatriya combine as it used to be." RB> This is is out-dated. The banias were responsible for raising money for campaigns for the BJP in the late eighties and early nineties. Right now in the very states where this applied there is no BJP govt in power or is barely surviving. What has worked out recently for the ruling party are strategic regional alliances and the stability card. People in tamil nadu voted for the BJP even though they would not have them at the state level. In any case the BJP is not a bastion for brahmanism. NG> Mr. Gandhi is a Bania and also because he has realized that money invested in Politics gives large dividends. RB> Sure it shows he was pragmatic and interested in real results. One would hope the "non brahman / brahman ruling elites would understand such things. NG> .......What Congress and Gandhi Have Done to the Untouchables" (published in 1945), Dr. B. R. Ambedkar writes, "History shows that the Brahmin has always had other classes as his allies to whom he was ready to accord the status of a governing class RB> Oh come on " ready to accord the status....indeed " be realistic The muslims did not ask the brahmans for permission. Shivaji used brahmans as a means of social and political recognition. Tell me who used who. A brahmans role is to sanctify things and conduct ceremonies. For instance a pandit ofifciating at a mariage ceremony does not say that he is against the marriage. His permisson is not asked for... Lets ask ourselves how the brahman came to acquire such so called power in the first place. Dr. Ambedkar married a brahmana therby exhibiting a great solidarity towards his own community. In any case why are his views the last word. He was capable of being as biased and immature as anyone else and need not always have been infallible. I would like to point out that recent outbursts against brahmanism border on ethnic slurs. From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Aug 15 08:10:04 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 00 01:10:04 -0700 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism. Was: Rajaram's bull/Hindutva (response to BhG) In-Reply-To: <3992AE09.253A@del3.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227060952.23782.2845734958282253387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> At 04:35 PM 08/06/2000 +0000, Bharat Gupt wrote: >I also tried to indicate in the two posts that colonial definition of >"Hindu" (which now prevails) reduced the wider meaning of "Hindu" as a geographic >cultural entity (from Persian Ind,Greek India, Islamic Hind/Hindostan/Mulke-Hindavi) >to religious, i.e., the followers of the Vedas. The notion that "Hindu" as a religious category is a colonial fabrication does not stand up to scrutiny. Let me quote from D. Lorenzen (1995:12) as he discusses North Indian bhakti movements of the 15th and 16th centuries: "...the poems of virtually all nirguNI saints beginning with Kabir and Guru Nanak repeatedly refer to 'Hindus and Turks' and 'Hindus and Muslims [musulaman]' in contexts that clearly show that the authors had in mind religious, and not ethnogeographical, communities." >But I drew attention to the fact that varna is not ONLY a Brahminical concept >because it has been accepted by all indigenous people and here even by >Muslims also as social hierarchy. Again, Lorenzen (p.20): "It is easy to demonstrate that nirguNI religion, particularly in its early stages, has embodied a fairly direct rejection of the ideology of varNAzramadharma." In this respect, the articles by Schaller and Juergensmeyer in Lorenzen's volume are relevant. The ref. is: Lorenzen, David N., ed. 1995. Bhakti Religion in North India: Community Identity and Political Action. SUNY Series in Religious Studies, ed. Harold Coward. Albany: State University of New York Press. >Was this new categorisation ... > an administrative >strategy for altering social behaviour of the governed ? The following is a good analysis that might be of interest (especially to those who would apply Said's Orientalism to India): Rocher, Rosane. 1993. British Orientalism in the Eighteenth Century: The Dialectics of Knowledge and Government. In Orientalism and the Postcolonial Predicament, eds. Carol A. Breckenridge and Peter van der Veer, 215-49. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 15 12:20:18 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 00 07:20:18 -0500 Subject: SV: Witzels's scholarly translations Message-ID: <161227060958.23782.16851787283179288125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Michael Witzel > > >Yes, I readily admit to: misplacing a parenthesis by *one word* in a >translation of BSS 18.44. That's about the extent of it. Even Homer nods. > yeah ! And then you use it as an example of the AMT !. A Piltdown textual evidence for the AMT. > >But: Europeanist? Dogma? Come on, Su??Brahmanya, in which world are you >living? -- Get real! > The nonsense of supposed IE superiority in horse handling, chariot tanks and going around reigning over all the lesser peoples is europeanist dogma. > >..... and at the same time conveniently forgetting that he had >promised to find my "Vedic panzer" ... > Your quotes about vedic "tanks" have already been given on the IndianCivilization list. No, you havent said anything about panzers. A panzer is a very specific kind of tank that only the germanic tribes would know. I will repost your vedic tank gems on this list as well,later when I have more time. > >He will have to change his prefix from Su- to Dur-. Last chance! > sigh - immaturity !. Regards, Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Tue Aug 15 09:20:16 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 00 10:20:16 +0100 Subject: Locutions Message-ID: <161227060956.23782.17927863687903169367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there a technical term for the indirect locutions that Sanskrit poets are so fond of? When a Viking poet calls the sea "the whale's way", we call it a kenning. When a Sanskrit poet calls the sea "the husband of the rivers" (or indeed an English speaker calls it "the herring pond") we call it--what? Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Tue Aug 15 18:47:41 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 00 11:47:41 -0700 Subject: SV: Rajaram's bull Message-ID: <161227060961.23782.792391587657890325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Srini Pichumani wrote: > Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > > If some people go berserk with their > Occidentophobia, it looks like others > > have a deep case of Brahmanophobia. > > As tomorrow's version control hurrees towards us, I > find that the > Brahmanophobyness of the esteemed list members is > indeed getting to be > terrific. Hurrees? "Brahmanophobefulness" is more appropriate than "Brahmanophobyness", no question about it. Please consider the following example: Billy Bunter: Which of you chaps is going to lend me a bob until Thursday? Hurree Jamset Ramsingh: The lendfulness is terrific, my boy. :-) Thanks and Warm Regards, LS --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 15 19:18:41 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 00 19:18:41 +0000 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism. Was: Rajaram's bull/Hindutva (response to BhG) Message-ID: <161227060963.23782.13081175475262296487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >"...the poems of virtually all nirguNI saints beginning with Kabir and Guru >Nanak repeatedly refer to 'Hindus and Turks' and 'Hindus and Muslims >[musulaman]' in contexts that clearly show that the authors had in mind >religious, and not ethnogeographical, communities." Does Hindu vs. Turk convey no ethnogeographical meaning to you? Hindu vs. Musalman reveals a clear religious division to everybody. Doesn't it follow from the above quotes that Turk was somehow synonymous with Musalman? Clearly, the Musalman was seen as an "Other", not only because of his alien religious practices, but also because of his foreign origin as a "Turk". Why do you not leave room for the idea that the term Hindu also conveyed both a religious and a geographical meaning, at the time of Nanak and Kabir? Was it possible to have a Hindu "religious" community in the 16th century, that was independent of ethnic and geographical identities? One question you need to ask is whether Kabir and Nanak even made a distinction between the category of the religious and the category of the ethnic/geographical. Another question you need to ask is whether they made a distinction between Hindu and Jain, or Hindu and Bauddh. After all, Jains were never absent from the regions where Kabir and Nanak lived. And if you notice, people like Kabir and Nanak opted for a syncretism that included or accommodated Islam in some sense. The asymmetry lies in the fact that only a "Hindu" environment could allow for such a syncretism. Indians have for long been used to fuzzy boundaries. Binary logic, that thinks primarily in terms of X vs. not-X fails miserably in understanding things Indian. The deliberate erasure of rigid boundaries is an integral part of the same system that once created the varNa and Azrama boundaries. That most of the bhakti poets rejected varNAzrama distinctions is just a symptom of this. But if one thinks that this rejection was somehow egalitarian or socialistic or democratic or any other modern category of Western origin, one is very much mistaken. Today you have the Kabirpanthis, the Nanakpanthis, the Sikhs ---- yet more boundaries, if not along the lines of varNa. In other words, in the 15th and 16th centuries, those who rejected the varNAzrama distinctions ended up creating more groups within the categroy of the "Hindu". Only some of these groups became a distinct "religion", other than "Hindu". The 19th century definition that made varNAzrama central to "Hindu"-ism was clearly a flawed definition for a society that inherited the attitudes of Kabir and others. Classical Indology can very easily assert that the "Vedic" is different from the "Hindu", but the biggest problem that remains is that the "Hindu" defies definition. Just like the nirguNa of these saint poets. If, following the quoted comments about Kabir and Nanak, you insist that the word Hindu denoted primarily a religious category, ask yourself if varNa and Azrama (as described by most Indologists, and based primarily on the texts) was all that pivotal to a "Hindu"-ism that made room for those who rejected varNa and Azrama. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue Aug 15 21:44:16 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 00 22:44:16 +0100 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism. Was: Rajaram's bull/Hindutva (response to BhG) Message-ID: <161227060965.23782.15071146187917533414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >After all, Jains >were never absent from the regions where Kabir and Nanak lived. Both of them have mentioned Jains explicitly. I am not aware of any example of the usage of the word "Hindu" before the British rule, where Jains are excluded. As far as I know the definition of the word "Hindu" requiring a acceptance of the Vedas is from the British period. It looks like an attempt to define Hinduism along the lines of people- of-the-book like Christians and Muslims. Bal Gangadhar Tilak gave one such definition, however in a lecture that he presented at a Jain meeting, he used the term "Brahman dharma" for "Brahmanical Hinduism" and not Hinduism, which he used inclusively. There are some communities that are partially "Vaishnav" and partly Jain. In some of them, like Agrawals, very close social connection existed and still exists, between them. This was true for several communities in the past, even some which have no Jain members today like the Maheshwaris (Birlas etc). Similar conditions exists in some communites in South India, like the Arasu of Karnataka (Maharaja of Mysore). Yashwant From dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET Wed Aug 16 02:56:01 2000 From: dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET (Rosati) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 00 22:56:01 -0400 Subject: Gilgit Buddhist Manuscripts Message-ID: <161227060972.23782.17700756132777819126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings- There seem to be two publications available of the Gilgit Buddhist manuscripts: 1 A reprint of the Vira/Chandra facsimilie edition, offered by Vedams books, in 3 volumes. 2 A reprint of Dutt's 1939 4-volume edition, also offered by Vedams. Is this a critical edition? If so, is it legible and/or reliable? Is the Vira/Chandra reprint of good quality, that is, are the photoreproductions decent enough to work from? Thank you for any and all advice Dante Rosati From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Wed Aug 16 01:54:23 2000 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 00 03:54:23 +0200 Subject: Q: old Tamil materials Message-ID: <161227060970.23782.4503904450700253501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Lehmann and Dr. Ganesan, I thank you both for your kind information. It was of really great help. Sincerelly yours, Ferenc Ruzsa From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Wed Aug 16 07:07:11 2000 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 00 07:07:11 +0000 Subject: Locutions Message-ID: <161227060974.23782.3511710284405175947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On August 15, 2000, Valerie J Roebuck wrote: >Is there a technical term for the indirect locutions that >Sanskrit poets are so fond of? Yes. See for instance: Edwin Gerow *A Glossary of Indian Figures of Speech*. The Hauge & Paris 1971. J. A. F Roodbergen *Mallin?tha?s GhaNT?patha on the Kir?t?rjun?ya, I - VI*. Leiden 1984. P. 526 - 564. From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG Wed Aug 16 01:09:40 2000 From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 00 09:09:40 +0800 Subject: SV: Witzels's scholarly translations Message-ID: <161227060967.23782.14187315958263246651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ... don't you feel it is high time to stop this "discussion"? I am still in the illusion, that "Indology" is an academic forum.... Ulrike -----Original Message----- From: Subrahmanya S. [mailto:subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 8:20 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: SV: Witzels's scholarly translations >From: Michael Witzel > > >Yes, I readily admit to: misplacing a parenthesis by *one word* in a >translation of BSS 18.44. That's about the extent of it. Even Homer nods. > yeah ! And then you use it as an example of the AMT !. A Piltdown textual evidence for the AMT. > >But: Europeanist? Dogma? Come on, Su??Brahmanya, in which world are you >living? -- Get real! > The nonsense of supposed IE superiority in horse handling, chariot tanks and going around reigning over all the lesser peoples is europeanist dogma. > >..... and at the same time conveniently forgetting that he had >promised to find my "Vedic panzer" ... > Your quotes about vedic "tanks" have already been given on the IndianCivilization list. No, you havent said anything about panzers. A panzer is a very specific kind of tank that only the germanic tribes would know. I will repost your vedic tank gems on this list as well,later when I have more time. > >He will have to change his prefix from Su- to Dur-. Last chance! > sigh - immaturity !. Regards, Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 16 13:38:24 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 00 13:38:24 +0000 Subject: Q: old Tamil materials Message-ID: <161227060977.23782.6531404637128001155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >1. Iravatham Mahadevan mentioned in an interview given in January 1998, >that he is working on a book on the earliest Tamil inscriptions. Has the >book appeared yet? Where? Thiru. Iravatham Mahadevan is telling me that he has completed the mss. The book will be published by the Institute of Asian studies, Chennai. Iravatham is in its board of directors for years. May be worthwhile to check with the Inst.'s director, Dr. G. John Samuel. His email: ias at xlweb.com. Meanwhile, important new discoveries of Tamil brahmi and transitional era inscriptions defining the period of change from Tamil brahmi to Pallava grantha continue to show up. Iravatham is the first to show how to read the earliest Tamil inscriptions. >2. What are the standard materials (esp. grammar, but also dictionary and >texts) to study old Tamil? >Any information is most welcome. Incidentally, the situation is changing for the better for CT texts; The inst. of Asian studies (Chennai) has published complete translations of certain sangam texts. ParipaaTal, a first on Thirumaal(Vishnu) and Murukan (Skanda/Subrahmanya) among Indic texts, is one of them. Pl. check again with ias at xlweb.com for a full list. See the book by Schiffman who taught Tamil to so many Americans for decades. But this is on today's tamil. CT is different with the least amt. of influence from either Sanskrit or English! Schiffman, Harold F. A reference grammar of spoken Tamil New York : Cambridge University Press, 1999. xxii, 232 p. ; 23 cm. A recent translation, of the puRam tiNai ('exterior landscape' - AKR), of an entire CT text (puRanAn2URu) is recommended: The four hundred songs of war and wisdom : an anthology of poems from classical Tamil : the pu_ran_an_u_ru / translated and edited by George L. Hart and Hank Heifetz. New York : Columbia University Press, 1999. xxxvii, 397 p. ; 21 cm. Regards, N. Ganesan, PhD ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Aug 17 04:38:45 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 00:38:45 -0400 Subject: Q: old Tamil materials Message-ID: <161227060986.23782.3353087229109539306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Ruzsa, Welcome to Tamilology. In a message dated 8/12/2000 5:20:43 PM Central Daylight Time, you wrote: > 2. What are the standard materials (esp. grammar, but also dictionary and > texts) to study old Tamil? You should consult the following work. "A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry" by V. S. Rajam, 1992, American Philosophical Society, Philadelphia. ISBN 0-87169-199-X The texts themselves are available in a searchable form at the Cologne University website Digita l Tamil Literature. Some of the Old Tamil texts may be ordered from the Tirunelveli Saiva Siddhanta Book Publishing Society in Chennai. Some may be ordered from the U. V. Saminatha Iyer Library in Chennai. Regards S. Palaniappan From rgfranco at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 17 03:20:20 2000 From: rgfranco at HOTMAIL.COM (Rosa EG Franco) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 04:20:20 +0100 Subject: author's data Message-ID: <161227060982.23782.2443808563872704396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am looking for some information regarding two contemporary authors on miniaturre painting books, William George Archer, who has worked extensively on Punjabi Painting, and M.S. Randhawa, author of Kangra Paintings on Love, Basohi Painting and many other titles. I have not been able to get hold of a biography of them anywhere. Thank you, Rosa E.Garcia-Franco From rjsimman at MAGIX.COM.SG Wed Aug 16 21:52:50 2000 From: rjsimman at MAGIX.COM.SG (Jai Simman s/o R. Rangasamy) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 05:52:50 +0800 Subject: Regarding Kalidasa and Panchatantra Message-ID: <161227060980.23782.13969355259620477013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello. Greetings. I am a history teacher and most recently as I was teaching Indian history to my class, I realised that the textbook mentions the panchatantra being composed by Kalidasa. Is this factual and correct ? What we know is that Kalidasa wrote Shakuntala and Kumara Sambhava. But his writing panchatantra does not seem to be correct. Could someone confirm the validity of this statement ?! We know that the panchatantra was popularised during the Gupta period. But did the panchatantra emerge only then or did it exist even before but was merely codified during this period ? Thanks in advance, R. Jai Simman Singapore ----- Original Message ----- From: "Automatic digest processor" To: "Recipients of INDOLOGY digests" Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 7:00 AM Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 14 Aug 2000 to 15 Aug 2000 (#2000-110) > There are 9 messages totalling 354 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. SV: Rajaram's bull (2) > 2. Yoga in Early Thailand > 3. bull on brahmanism > 4. Hinduism and Colonialism. Was: Rajaram's bull/Hindutva (response to BhG) > (3) > 5. Locutions > 6. SV: Witzels's scholarly translations > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:11:33 -0700 > From: Srini Pichumani > Subject: Re: SV: Rajaram's bull > > Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > > If some people go berserk with their Occidentophobia, it looks like others > > have a deep case of Brahmanophobia. > > As tomorrow's version control hurrees towards us, I find that the > Brahmanophobyness of the esteemed list members is indeed getting to be > terrific. > > -Srini. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:05:32 -0700 > From: "Ven. Tantra" > Subject: Yoga in Early Thailand > > Could any list members offer clues of direct reference > to yoga in early Thailand/Siam? I have only "heard" > that there were relations between yogis/rishis and the > early Thai/Siamese courts. > > So far, Kamaleswar Bhattacharya's essay "The Religions > of Ancient Cambodia" (1997) has proved invaluable in > establishing the existence of yoga in Cambodia in the > ancient period. > > With gratitude. > > Ven. Tantra > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:27:35 -0400 > From: Rajarshi Banerjee > Subject: bull on brahmanism > > NG> The result is that the governing class in India today is a Brahmin-Bania > instead of Brahmin-Kshatriya combine as it used to be." > RB> This is is out-dated. The banias were responsible for raising money for > campaigns for the BJP in the late eighties and early nineties. Right now in > the very states where this applied there is no BJP govt in power or is > barely surviving. What has worked out recently for the ruling party are > strategic regional alliances and the stability card. People in tamil nadu > voted for the BJP even though they would not have them at the state level. > In any case the BJP is not a bastion for brahmanism. > NG> Mr. Gandhi is a Bania and also because he has realized that money > invested in Politics gives large dividends. > RB> Sure it shows he was pragmatic and interested in real results. One would > hope the "non brahman / brahman ruling elites would understand such things. > > NG> .......What Congress and Gandhi Have Done to the Untouchables" > (published in 1945), Dr. B. R. Ambedkar writes, "History shows that the > Brahmin has always had other classes as his allies to whom he was ready to > accord the status of a governing class > RB> Oh come on " ready to accord the status....indeed " be realistic The > muslims did not ask the brahmans for permission. Shivaji used brahmans as a > means of social and political recognition. Tell me who used who. A brahmans > role is to sanctify things and conduct ceremonies. For instance a pandit > ofifciating at a mariage ceremony does not say that he is against the > marriage. His permisson is not asked for... > Lets ask ourselves how the brahman came to acquire such so called power in > the first place. Dr. Ambedkar married a brahmana therby exhibiting a great > solidarity towards his own community. In any case why are his views the last > word. He was capable of being as biased and immature as anyone else and need > not always have been infallible. > I would like to point out that recent outbursts against brahmanism border on > ethnic slurs. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 01:10:04 -0700 > From: Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism. Was: Rajaram's bull/Hindutva (response to > BhG) > > >> At 04:35 PM 08/06/2000 +0000, Bharat Gupt wrote: > > >I also tried to indicate in the two posts that colonial definition of > >"Hindu" (which now prevails) reduced the wider meaning of "Hindu" as a > geographic > >cultural entity (from Persian Ind,Greek India, Islamic > Hind/Hindostan/Mulke-Hindavi) > >to religious, i.e., the followers of the Vedas. > > The notion that "Hindu" as a religious category is a colonial fabrication > does not stand up to scrutiny. Let me quote from D. Lorenzen (1995:12) as > he discusses North Indian bhakti movements of the 15th and 16th centuries: > > "...the poems of virtually all nirguNI saints beginning with Kabir and Guru > Nanak repeatedly refer to 'Hindus and Turks' and 'Hindus and Muslims > [musulaman]' in contexts that clearly show that the authors had in mind > religious, and not ethnogeographical, communities." > > >But I drew attention to the fact that varna is not ONLY a Brahminical > concept > >because it has been accepted by all indigenous people and here even by > >Muslims also as social hierarchy. > > Again, Lorenzen (p.20): > > "It is easy to demonstrate that nirguNI religion, particularly in its early > stages, has embodied a fairly direct rejection of the ideology of > varNAzramadharma." > > In this respect, the articles by Schaller and Juergensmeyer in Lorenzen's > volume are relevant. > The ref. is: > > Lorenzen, David N., ed. 1995. Bhakti Religion in North India: Community > Identity and Political Action. SUNY Series in Religious Studies, ed. Harold > Coward. Albany: State University of New York Press. > > >Was this new categorisation ... > > an administrative > >strategy for altering social behaviour of the governed ? > > The following is a good analysis that might be of interest (especially to > those who would apply Said's Orientalism to India): > > Rocher, Rosane. 1993. British Orientalism in the Eighteenth Century: The > Dialectics of Knowledge and Government. In Orientalism and the Postcolonial > Predicament, eds. Carol A. Breckenridge and Peter van der Veer, 215-49. > Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press. > > Best, > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > University of California, Berkeley > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:20:16 +0100 > From: Valerie J Roebuck > Subject: Locutions > > Is there a technical term for the indirect locutions that Sanskrit poets > are so fond of? When a Viking poet calls the sea "the whale's way", we > call it a kenning. When a Sanskrit poet calls the sea "the husband of the > rivers" (or indeed an English speaker calls it "the herring pond") we call > it--what? > > Valerie J Roebuck > Manchester, UK > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 07:20:18 CDT > From: "Subrahmanya S." > Subject: Re: SV: Witzels's scholarly translations > > >From: Michael Witzel > > > > > >Yes, I readily admit to: misplacing a parenthesis by *one word* in a > >translation of BSS 18.44. That's about the extent of it. Even Homer nods. > > > yeah ! And then you use it as an example of the AMT !. > A Piltdown textual evidence for the AMT. > > > > >But: Europeanist? Dogma? Come on, Su??Brahmanya, in which world are you > >living? -- Get real! > > > The nonsense of supposed IE superiority in horse handling, > chariot tanks and going around reigning over all the lesser peoples > is europeanist dogma. > > > > >..... and at the same time conveniently forgetting that he had > >promised to find my "Vedic panzer" ... > > > > Your quotes about vedic "tanks" have already been given > on the IndianCivilization list. No, you havent said > anything about panzers. A panzer is a very specific > kind of tank that only the germanic tribes would know. > I will repost your vedic tank gems on this list as well,later > when I have more time. > > > > >He will have to change his prefix from Su- to Dur-. Last chance! > > > sigh - immaturity !. > > Regards, > Subrahmanya > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:47:41 -0700 > From: Lakshmi Srinivas > Subject: Re: SV: Rajaram's bull > > --- Srini Pichumani wrote: > > Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > > > > If some people go berserk with their > > Occidentophobia, it looks like others > > > have a deep case of Brahmanophobia. > > > > As tomorrow's version control hurrees towards us, I > > find that the > > Brahmanophobyness of the esteemed list members is > > indeed getting to be > > terrific. > > Hurrees? "Brahmanophobefulness" is more appropriate than "Brahmanophobyness", no question about it. Please consider the following example: > > Billy Bunter: Which of you chaps is going to lend me a bob until Thursday? > > Hurree Jamset Ramsingh: The lendfulness is terrific, my boy. > > > :-) > > > Thanks and Warm Regards, > > LS > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:18:41 GMT > From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan > Subject: Re: Hinduism and Colonialism. Was: Rajaram's bull/Hindutva (response > to BhG) > > >"...the poems of virtually all nirguNI saints beginning with Kabir and Guru > >Nanak repeatedly refer to 'Hindus and Turks' and 'Hindus and Muslims > >[musulaman]' in contexts that clearly show that the authors had in mind > >religious, and not ethnogeographical, communities." > > Does Hindu vs. Turk convey no ethnogeographical meaning to you? Hindu vs. > Musalman reveals a clear religious division to everybody. Doesn't it follow > from the above quotes that Turk was somehow synonymous with Musalman? > Clearly, the Musalman was seen as an "Other", not only because of his alien > religious practices, but also because of his foreign origin as a "Turk". Why > do you not leave room for the idea that the term Hindu also conveyed both a > religious and a geographical meaning, at the time of Nanak and Kabir? Was it > possible to have a Hindu "religious" community in the 16th century, that was > independent of ethnic and geographical identities? > > One question you need to ask is whether Kabir and Nanak even made a > distinction between the category of the religious and the category of the > ethnic/geographical. Another question you need to ask is whether they made a > distinction between Hindu and Jain, or Hindu and Bauddh. After all, Jains > were never absent from the regions where Kabir and Nanak lived. And if you > notice, people like Kabir and Nanak opted for a syncretism that included or > accommodated Islam in some sense. The asymmetry lies in the fact that only a > "Hindu" environment could allow for such a syncretism. > > Indians have for long been used to fuzzy boundaries. Binary logic, that > thinks primarily in terms of X vs. not-X fails miserably in understanding > things Indian. The deliberate erasure of rigid boundaries is an integral > part of the same system that once created the varNa and Azrama boundaries. > That most of the bhakti poets rejected varNAzrama distinctions is just a > symptom of this. But if one thinks that this rejection was somehow > egalitarian or socialistic or democratic or any other modern category of > Western origin, one is very much mistaken. Today you have the Kabirpanthis, > the Nanakpanthis, the Sikhs ---- yet more boundaries, if not along the lines > of varNa. In other words, in the 15th and 16th centuries, those who rejected > the varNAzrama distinctions ended up creating more groups within the > categroy of the "Hindu". Only some of these groups became a distinct > "religion", other than "Hindu". The 19th century definition that made > varNAzrama central to "Hindu"-ism was clearly a flawed definition for a > society that inherited the attitudes of Kabir and others. > > Classical Indology can very easily assert that the "Vedic" is different from > the "Hindu", but the biggest problem that remains is that the "Hindu" defies > definition. Just like the nirguNa of these saint poets. If, following the > quoted comments about Kabir and Nanak, you insist that the word Hindu > denoted primarily a religious category, ask yourself if varNa and Azrama (as > described by most Indologists, and based primarily on the texts) was all > that pivotal to a "Hindu"-ism that made room for those who rejected varNa > and Azrama. > > Vidyasankar > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:44:16 +0100 > From: Yashwant Malaiya > Subject: Re: Hinduism and Colonialism. Was: Rajaram's bull/Hindutva (response > to BhG) > > Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > >After all, Jains > >were never absent from the regions where Kabir and Nanak lived. > > Both of them have mentioned Jains explicitly. > > I am not aware of any example of the usage of the word "Hindu" > before the British rule, where Jains are excluded. > > As far as I know the definition of the word "Hindu" requiring > a acceptance of the Vedas is from the British period. It looks > like an attempt to define Hinduism along the lines of people- > of-the-book like Christians and Muslims. Bal Gangadhar Tilak > gave one such definition, however in a lecture that he presented > at a Jain meeting, he used the term "Brahman dharma" for > "Brahmanical Hinduism" and not Hinduism, which he used inclusively. > > There are some communities that are partially "Vaishnav" and partly > Jain. In some of them, like Agrawals, very close social connection > existed and still exists, between them. This was true for several > communities in the past, even some which have no Jain members today like > the Maheshwaris (Birlas etc). Similar conditions exists in some > communites in South India, like the Arasu of Karnataka (Maharaja of > Mysore). > > > Yashwant > > ------------------------------ > > End of INDOLOGY Digest - 14 Aug 2000 to 15 Aug 2000 (#2000-110) > *************************************************************** From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Aug 17 19:25:06 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 12:25:06 -0700 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060991.23782.4852121977831522246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:18 PM 08/15/2000 +0000, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: Re Lorenzen's quote that: >>"...the poems of virtually all nirguNI saints beginning with Kabir and Guru >>Nanak repeatedly refer to 'Hindus and Turks' and 'Hindus and Muslims >>[musulaman]' in contexts that clearly show that the authors had in mind >>religious, and not ethnogeographical, communities." VS asks: >Does Hindu vs. Turk convey no ethnogeographical meaning to you? It is not a question of what it conveys to me (or to you). Lorenzen refers to the contexts in which these terms are used by the bhakti poets themselves. > Binary logic, that >thinks primarily in terms of X vs. not-X fails miserably in understanding >things Indian. Here I disagree. In some cases it can be very helpful. The best example is the god-antigod polarity: deva vs. asura/dAnava/daitya/rAkSasa ( even a new term, sura, was probably coined to stress the oppositional character of the sura (i.e. deva) vs. asura relationship). This polarity, made manifest in constant battles between gods and demons, is very useful in understanding Epic and Puranic mythology, where it is a recurring theme, a theme carried over from Vedic mythology. This same polarity is often used for identifying nAstikas (those who disagree with 'us') as asuras. See, for instance, the MaitrAyaNIya UpaniSad 7.8-10, where the terms svargya and asvargya are used as well as deva and asura. And also the ViSNu PurANa (from 3.17.35 up to the end of 3.18) which gives a detailed description of different heretics, including Buddhists, and identifies them as demons. For more, see the Ziva PurANa 2.5.4.1-36, and the BhAgavata PurANa 1.3.24, 10.40.22, 11.4.22. ViSNu's purpose for being born as the Buddha was to delude those unfit for celebrating sacrifices, i.e. demons. But then, demonizing foreigners and dissenters is a pretty universal practice. All of this, of course, is not to say that Hinduism can be defined purely by a "binary logic," to use your words. Much of the current angry criticisms against Western Indologists, on the other hand, IS portrayed in a binary mode (East vs. West). As if there were a need to insist on whether someone is Western or Indian. This leads us nowhere. If there are specific things to be pointed out in specific cases that can help, but broad generalizations based on an East-West divide don't. >That most of the bhakti poets rejected varNAzrama distinctions is just a >symptom of this. But if one thinks that this rejection was somehow >egalitarian or socialistic or democratic or any other modern category of >Western origin, one is very much mistaken. I never brought socialism or democracy into the picture. If you assume I was thinking about that, it is a mistaken assumption. But, again, why the need to add that these are of "Western origin"? > ask yourself if varNa and Azrama (as >described by most Indologists, and based primarily on the texts) was all >that pivotal to a "Hindu"-ism that made room for those who rejected varNa >and Azrama. You might remember I mentioned Doniger's suggestion that the acceptance of the Vedas and of reincarnation seemed to be the only elements that could be used to determine whether a tradition was Hindu or not in the Gupta period. VarNAzrama is not one of these elements. This means many who reject varNAzrama are included. So, where is your remark coming from? Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 17 13:41:16 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 13:41:16 +0000 Subject: Jobless Hindu gods Message-ID: <161227060989.23782.8614322460975999908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< The Hon'ble minister says, ``Even Parvathi (Lord Shiva's wife) would have frightened by seeing the snake.'' (sic) naishA yuktir nUtanA. "Sive SRngArAdrA .... harAhibhyo bhItA ..." - ring a bell? Poor Siva - he has for long been used to nindAstuti. :-)) Vidyasankar >>> Hon. Anbazakan and Karunanidhi come from ThiruvArUr. Early Tamil poems on ArUr Shiva themselves employ this nindAstuti. nAkattai naGkai aJca; naGkaiayai maJJai en2Ru vEkattait tavira nAkam; vEzattin urivai pOrttup pAkattin2 nimirtal ceyyAt tiGkaLai min2 en2Ru aJci Akattil kiTanta nAkam aTaGkum, ArUran2ArkkE! - tEvAram [Parvati was frightened by the snake on Shiva; In turn, the snake was afraid as well mistaking her to be a peacock. And, was calmed further thinking His crescent as a lightning.] Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Fri Aug 18 01:14:07 2000 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 15:14:07 -1000 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.20000815125629.00e5bd80@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227061007.23782.11355090805183276439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > At 07:18 PM 08/15/2000 +0000, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > Binary logic, that > >thinks primarily in terms of X vs. not-X fails miserably in understanding > >things Indian. > > Here I disagree. In some cases it can be very helpful. The best example > is the god-antigod polarity: deva vs. asura/dAnava/daitya/rAkSasa ( even a > new term, sura, was probably coined to stress the oppositional character of > the sura (i.e. deva) vs. asura relationship). This polarity, made manifest > in constant battles between gods and demons, is very useful in > understanding Epic and Puranic mythology, where it is a recurring theme, a > theme carried over from Vedic mythology. > This same polarity is often used for identifying nAstikas (those who > disagree with 'us') as asuras. > See, for instance, the MaitrAyaNIya UpaniSad 7.8-10, where the terms > svargya and asvargya are used as well as deva and asura. And also the > ViSNu PurANa (from 3.17.35 up to the end of 3.18) which gives a detailed > description of different heretics, including Buddhists, and identifies them > as demons. The demon Hiranyakasipu was a fanatical atheist and a persecutor of theists -- a perfect "naastika." But according to the Bhagavata Purana, he chose to be an atheist simply because that was the fastest way for him to be re-united with God. :-) :-) I love that twisted logic, but "binary" it isn't. Or at least, not always. That seems logical. :-) :-) Regards, Raja. From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Aug 17 23:25:50 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 16:25:50 -0700 Subject: Nationalisms and Hollywood In-Reply-To: <004b01c0033b$3ccd1180$1516893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227061000.23782.1457030850481843171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A belated comment: At 03:22 AM 08/11/2000 +0100, Stephen Hodge wrote: >Actually, it seems to be quite fashionable to "have a go" at the >British [ = English] these days if we look at the one-sided, distorted >or anachronistic versions of history emanating from Hollywood >recently. What? You mean you don't like Mel Gibson? Cheers, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann From haridasc at YAHOO.COM Fri Aug 18 00:18:18 2000 From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 17:18:18 -0700 Subject: Conference announcement/More (fwd) Message-ID: <161227061002.23782.2487777766095542707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> pp.. --- Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:22:10 -0400 > From: Rolf Sinclair > > Subject: Conference announcement/More > > Hi Dominik -- > Several people have picked up on the INSAP > announcement from the Indology > e-mail -- one from as far away as Nepal! So we did > reach an interested group. > If you think it appropriate (and your normal > practice) could you mention the > meeting again on your e-mail list? We seem to be > finding interest there. > Thanks -- > Rolf > ************* > > > THE INSPIRATION OF ASTRONOMICAL PHENOMENA -- THIRD > CONFERENCE > Palermo (Sicily), Italy -- December 31, 2000-January > 6, 2001 > CALL FOR APPLICATIONS AND PAPERS > Dear Colleague: > We wish to inform you of the up-coming Third > International Conference on > The Inspiration of Astronomical Phenomena ("INSAP > III"). This meeting will > explore mankind's fascination with the sky by day > and by night, which has > been a strong and often dominant element in human > life and culture. The > conference will provide a meeting place for artists > and scholars from a > variety of disciplines (including Archaeology and > Anthropology, Art and Art > History, Classics, History and Prehistory, the > Physical and Social > Sciences, Mythology and Folklore, Philosophy, and > Religion) to present and > discuss their studies of the influences that > astronomical phenomena have > had on mankind. > The first two meetings (Castel Gandolfo, 1994; > Malta, 1999) successfully > brought together for the first time people from just > such a range of > disciplines to address topics of common interest. > Papers from the first > meeting were published in "Vistas in Astronomy" > (1995) and in "Leonardo" > (1996), and those from the second will appear > shortly in book form. These > papers (described on our Website under "the First > (or Second) INSAP > Conference") give an idea of the range of subjects > presented at these > meetings. A similar publication is planned for the > third meeting. > The meeting will be held overlooking the > Mediterranean, a few minutes from > the center of Palermo, and will start with a New > Year's Eve (and Millennium > Eve) banquet December 31, 2000. The meeting rooms > will include ample space > for display (and sale) of works of art by attendees. > Full information on INSAP III and on the earlier > conferences, and an > application form for the upcoming meeting, can be > found on our Website > (http://ethel.as.arizona.edu/~white/insap) or > obtained from the > undersigned. Attendance will be by invitation from > among those applying.All > presentations and discussions will be in English. > This Conference is sponsored by the Palermo > Observatory, the Vatican > Observatory, and the Steward Observatory, and is > hosted by the Palermo > Observatory as part of the bicentennial of the > discovery there of the first > asteroid, Ceres, on the nights of January 1-3, 1801. > Please circulate or post this announcement. > Prof. Salvatore Serio, Palermo Observatory (Chair, > Local Organizing > Committee) (insap3 at oapa.astropa.unipa.it) > Dr. Rolf M. Sinclair, Chevy Chase MD (International > Organizing Committee) > (rolf at santafe.edu) > Prof. Raymond E. White, Steward Observatory > (International Organizing > Committee) (REWhite1933 at aol.com) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From haridasc at YAHOO.COM Fri Aug 18 00:32:36 2000 From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 17:32:36 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's admittance--S. Farmer Message-ID: <161227061004.23782.8106221023905522870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Farmer, Could you please do the list a favor by reproducing the exact spot in your mini-List where Rajaram "finally revealed" that he enhanced the image by computer, and in doing so, deliver the coup de grace to Rajaram's bull? thank you. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Aug 18 01:41:09 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 18:41:09 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's admittance--S. Farmer Message-ID: <161227061010.23782.9371637548770241590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Haridas C writes: > Could you please do the list a favor by reproducing > the exact spot in your mini-List where Rajaram > "finally revealed" that he enhanced the image by > computer, and in doing so, deliver the coup de grace > to Rajaram's bull? Basta with Rajaram! To mix metaphors a bit: The bull and decipherment are already dead horses. Even Rajaram's defenders have abandoned them by now. (Rajaram, however, continues to defend them.) The most recent review of the data (minus data on Rajaram's inflated credentials) is posted at: http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html You can get to M. Witzel's article on the decipherment at: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/R&J.htm In both cases, hit "refresh" or "reload" on your browser, or you will just load any old version from your browser cache. To your question: Rajaram's exact words, emailed to me, K. Elst, M. Witzel, and many others on 30 July, were: > We provide a computer enhancement and an artist?s reproduction to > facilitate our reading. Note that this came long *after* the charge of computer manipulation had already been made by me and others. The decipherment and "horse-seal" issues go hand in hand, since Rajaram offers a reading of the seal inscription (which carries a picture of a unicorn bull) that specifically speaks of the (non-existent) horse! Some of this will eventually be discussed in print. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 17 21:23:33 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 21:23:33 +0000 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism Message-ID: <161227060995.23782.2082386834923326785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > VarNAzrama is not one of these elements. This means many who reject >varNAzrama are included. >So, where is your remark coming from? > It had to do with Bharat Gupt's original statement that one cannot always distinguish between Hindu and non-Hindu on the basis of acceptance or rejection of varNAzrama. This is often seen as a solely Hindutva construction, but the reality is otherwise. As for democracy or socialism being of Western origin, aren't they? I don't claim that the Western origin is something negative. Just that these concepts would not be applicable to pre-19th c. India. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Aug 17 20:41:50 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 21:41:50 +0100 Subject: Job at Lampeter (fwd) Message-ID: <161227060993.23782.4750295026967049444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---- University of Wales, Lampeter Lectureship in Indian Religion Applications are invited from graduates with a research degree (preferably a Ph.D) for a Lectureship in Indian Religion. Candidates must be able to teach undergraduate and postgraduate courses in Hinduism and offer other courses in the area of Indian Religion or the Study of Religion depending on their own background and experience. Preference will be given to active researchers. The salary will be within Grade A of the Lecturer Salary Scale, and the post would normally be a fixed-term three year appointment in the first instance (though a permanent appointment could be made in the case of an experienced Lecturer). For further information contact the Personnel Assistant, University of Wales Lampeter, Dyfed, SA48 7ED (Tel 01570424703 Fax 01570423423 E-mail lynda at admin.lamp.ac.uk Homepage: http://www.lamp.ac.uk/vacancies/index.htp) The closing date for applications is the 15th September. Details of the Department may be found on http://www.lamp.ac.uk/trs. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Aug 17 21:45:06 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 00 22:45:06 +0100 Subject: Conference announcement/More (fwd) Message-ID: <161227060998.23782.7394354528952046990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:22:10 -0400 From: Rolf Sinclair Subject: Conference announcement/More Hi Dominik -- Several people have picked up on the INSAP announcement from the Indology e-mail -- one from as far away as Nepal! So we did reach an interested group. If you think it appropriate (and your normal practice) could you mention the meeting again on your e-mail list? We seem to be finding interest there. Thanks -- Rolf ************* THE INSPIRATION OF ASTRONOMICAL PHENOMENA -- THIRD CONFERENCE Palermo (Sicily), Italy -- December 31, 2000-January 6, 2001 CALL FOR APPLICATIONS AND PAPERS Dear Colleague: We wish to inform you of the up-coming Third International Conference on The Inspiration of Astronomical Phenomena ("INSAP III"). This meeting will explore mankind's fascination with the sky by day and by night, which has been a strong and often dominant element in human life and culture. The conference will provide a meeting place for artists and scholars from a variety of disciplines (including Archaeology and Anthropology, Art and Art History, Classics, History and Prehistory, the Physical and Social Sciences, Mythology and Folklore, Philosophy, and Religion) to present and discuss their studies of the influences that astronomical phenomena have had on mankind. The first two meetings (Castel Gandolfo, 1994; Malta, 1999) successfully brought together for the first time people from just such a range of disciplines to address topics of common interest. Papers from the first meeting were published in "Vistas in Astronomy" (1995) and in "Leonardo" (1996), and those from the second will appear shortly in book form. These papers (described on our Website under "the First (or Second) INSAP Conference") give an idea of the range of subjects presented at these meetings. A similar publication is planned for the third meeting. The meeting will be held overlooking the Mediterranean, a few minutes from the center of Palermo, and will start with a New Year's Eve (and Millennium Eve) banquet December 31, 2000. The meeting rooms will include ample space for display (and sale) of works of art by attendees. Full information on INSAP III and on the earlier conferences, and an application form for the upcoming meeting, can be found on our Website (http://ethel.as.arizona.edu/~white/insap) or obtained from the undersigned. Attendance will be by invitation from among those applying.All presentations and discussions will be in English. This Conference is sponsored by the Palermo Observatory, the Vatican Observatory, and the Steward Observatory, and is hosted by the Palermo Observatory as part of the bicentennial of the discovery there of the first asteroid, Ceres, on the nights of January 1-3, 1801. Please circulate or post this announcement. Prof. Salvatore Serio, Palermo Observatory (Chair, Local Organizing Committee) (insap3 at oapa.astropa.unipa.it) Dr. Rolf M. Sinclair, Chevy Chase MD (International Organizing Committee) (rolf at santafe.edu) Prof. Raymond E. White, Steward Observatory (International Organizing Committee) (REWhite1933 at aol.com) From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Aug 18 15:55:34 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 08:55:34 -0700 Subject: The "Net of Indra" Message-ID: <161227061019.23782.17804517971687577275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is precisely what I meant by "extreme examples," Lance. Thanks also to everyone who sent me suggestions off-List. I will take a close look at this material; it is just in time for my paper - which deals with the neurobiological and literate roots of this kind of thought. Steve > > Also, if anyone knows of early instances of the "Net of Indra" > > idea, or knows anything about its origins, please let me know. > > One aspect of its origins lies in the abhidha(r)mma. Specifically in > the theories of hetu and pratyaya which try to show the > interrelatedness of things. This is most elaborate in the last book > of the canonical Abhidhamma-pi.taka in Pali: the Pat.thaana. This is > a work of the last two centuries B.C. for those who accept the > substantial closure of the Pali Canon in the first century B.C. > Others would date it a century or two later. > > It presents a system of dhammas using the 22 triplets and 100 > couplets of the abhidhamma, analyzing their relationships in 24 major > ways. In each of the 24 are seven chapters subdivided into four > sections, each with questions and answers. Within each of these parts > it operates its basic method of 24 paccaya (conditions/relations). In > effect, everything is intricately related to everything else either > because it must be there or it must not be there, etc., etc. > > I think this does qualify as 'extreme'. (And we haven't got to the > commentaries yet!) Whether it is precisely an example of what you > are looking for, is harder to say. For myself, I would see it as > expressing in terms of 'dhammas' something similar to what is > expressed in some later Mahaayaana works in terms of persons > (puggalaadhi.t.thaana). But these are not exactly systems of > correspondences. > From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Fri Aug 18 09:21:24 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 10:21:24 +0100 Subject: The "Net of Indra" In-Reply-To: <3994743A.442A3B02@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227061012.23782.6329407888625036361.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Steve, >In India, one later variant shows up as the "Net of Indra," which >is discussed in the AvataMsaka Suutra. The text was translated >into Chinese in the 5th century CE and was central to the Huayan >school in China and Kegon school in Japan. Each node of the >Indra's net, viewed as a cosmic symbol, was said to be decorated >with a jewel that reflected not only every other jewel but also >every *reflection* of each jewel in every other -- and so on to >infinity. Similar metaphors evolved independently in mature >commentarial traditions in other old world socities at >predictable points. Exactly how they emerged depended on a >variety of exegetical factors. Not the Avatam.saka which is a Chinese collection of materials, not all of which has been proven to be of Indian origin. It is the Ga.n.davyuuha (extant in Sanskrit) a translation of which is included in that Chinese collection. >In Indian traditions, I've traced precursors of this kind of idea >(not the "Net of Indra" itself) as far back as the BraahmaNas. >I'm now searching for *extreme* ideas of this sort as *early* as >possible in Indian (and hopefully Vedic) traditions. Does anyone >know any good candidates? =Examples of *extreme* anticipations of >these ideas (e.g., elaborate correlations of directions, numbers, >colors, sounds, Vedic metres, emotions, etc.) would also be >appreciated. (I emphasize "extreme" here since I know lots of >garden-variety Vedic examples.) It is rather difficult to know exactly what would constitute ' extreme' here. This might be why not many people have replied. >Also, if anyone knows of early instances of the "Net of Indra" >idea, or knows anything about its origins, please let me know. One aspect of its origins lies in the abhidha(r)mma. Specifically in the theories of hetu and pratyaya which try to show the interrelatedness of things. This is most elaborate in the last book of the canonical Abhidhamma-pi.taka in Pali: the Pat.thaana. This is a work of the last two centuries B.C. for those who accept the substantial closure of the Pali Canon in the first century B.C. Others would date it a century or two later. It presents a system of dhammas using the 22 triplets and 100 couplets of the abhidhamma, analyzing their relationships in 24 major ways. In each of the 24 are seven chapters subdivided into four sections, each with questions and answers. Within each of these parts it operates its basic method of 24 paccaya (conditions/relations). In effect, everything is intricately related to everything else either because it must be there or it must not be there, etc., etc. I think this does qualify as 'extreme'. (And we haven't got to the commentaries yet!) Whether it is precisely an example of what you are looking for, is harder to say. For myself, I would see it as expressing in terms of 'dhammas' something similar to what is expressed in some later Mahaayaana works in terms of persons (puggalaadhi.t.thaana). But these are not exactly systems of correspondences. Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 18 15:07:51 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 15:07:51 +0000 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061015.23782.1438686122076546070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have read UttaramErUr inscriptions of the Chola period a while ago. In those, an election process of casting votes in an earthen pot to get elected as a member of the governing council of a grAmam is described. Especially, the qualifications to be a candidate for a public office in great details. Is this Chola period democratic process recorded anywhere else in old India? Thanks for any references where these are discussed, Chola or other medieval dynasties. Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 18 15:45:01 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 15:45:01 +0000 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism Message-ID: <161227061017.23782.791909352578868919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >That most of the bhakti poets rejected varNAzrama distinctions is just a >symptom of this. But if one thinks that this rejection was somehow >egalitarian or socialistic or democratic or any other modern >category of Western origin, one is very much mistaken. In another mail: >As for democracy or socialism being of Western origin, aren't >they? I don't claim that the Western origin is something negative. >Just that these concepts would not be applicable to pre-19th c. >India. Tamil data do not agree with this. Not only some forms of democracy and ballot casting were prevalent (uttaramErUr, etc.,). Many CT poems are highly egalitarian, and the authors - both men and women, were drawn from all castes. Valluvar in his kuRaL declares, "in birth, all are equal". Prof. T.P.M. wrote a book on CilappatikAram with the title, "kuTimakkaL kAppiyam" ('kAvya of the people'). Early Tamil bhakti poetry, at the fountainhead of a mass cult that swept all across India, was egalitarian in intent. It too drew inspiration and poets from all the castes. After some centuries, Ramanujar made a bold attempt to mitigate the caste effects through democratization. Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Aug 18 16:59:50 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 17:59:50 +0100 Subject: The "Net of Indra" Message-ID: <161227061021.23782.10425166341301900610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> L. S. Cousins wrote: > Not the Avatam.saka which is a Chinese collection of materials, not > all of which has been proven to be of Indian origin. I am puzzled by this statement. As you will know there is also a Tibetan translation by Vairocana-rak.sita of this text (collection of texts) which largely corresponds in content to the Chinese version but clearly is not translated from the Chinese (as in the case of one of the Nirvana / Lankavatara Sutras). This would seem to indicate strongly that there was some Indic original for this corpus -- possibly of Central Asian provenance. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Fri Aug 18 17:46:48 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 18:46:48 +0100 Subject: The "Net of Indra" In-Reply-To: <004301c00935$e7ca85e0$9332893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227061034.23782.18354502551244978533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stephen, > > Not the Avatam.saka which is a Chinese collection of materials, not >> all of which has been proven to be of Indian origin. > >I am puzzled by this statement. As you will know there is also a >Tibetan translation by Vairocana-rak.sita of this text (collection of >texts) which largely corresponds in content to the Chinese version but >clearly is not translated from the Chinese (as in the case of one of >the Nirvana / Lankavatara Sutras). This would seem to indicate >strongly that there was some Indic original for this corpus -- >possibly of Central Asian provenance. All I said was 'not proven' ! It has often been suggested that the Avata.msaka collection was created in Central Asia. In fact the collection includes at least two very large texts of Sanskrit and presumably 'Indian' origin. But no Indian source, as far as I know, refers to the collection. Some of the smaller texts might have a lost Indian original. Some of them could have been composed in Central Asia. Conceivably they could have been written there in Sanskrit or in some other language. But none of this seems very certain; so I simply said 'not proven to be of Indian origin'. I do not know sufficient about the Tibetan version. I have seen you mention this before, but I do not know why older scholarship did not accept this. Assuming that it is not from one of the extant Chinese versions (as I had earlier understood) how do we know that it is not translated from a Central Asian or lost Chinese original ? Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From bpj at NETG.SE Fri Aug 18 19:27:51 2000 From: bpj at NETG.SE (BP Jonsson) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 21:27:51 +0200 Subject: Tamil script: what is the traditional use of _aytam_ Message-ID: <161227061023.23782.2458271001010187194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I wonder what was the traditional use of _aytam_ in Tamil script? It seems from what I've gleaned that it indicated some kinde of aspiration, perhaps was a kind of visarga? /BP 8^)> -- B.Philip Jonsson mailto:bpX at netg.se mailto:melrochX at mail.com (delete X) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Truth, Sir, is a cow which will give [skeptics] no more milk, and so they are gone to milk the bull." -- Sam. Johnson (no rel. ;) From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 18 21:59:00 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 21:59:00 +0000 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism Message-ID: <161227061025.23782.15101888068939902050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Tamil data do not agree with this. Not only some forms of >democracy and ballot casting were prevalent (uttaramErUr, etc.,). Maybe so, but was Athenian democracy in 200 BCE similar to British or American democracy 22 centuries later? And were these ballot-casting traditions around when the Cola empire was expanding overseas? >Many CT poems are highly egalitarian, and the authors - both >men and women, were drawn from all castes. Valluvar in his kuRaL >declares, "in birth, all are equal". Prof. T.P.M. wrote a >book on CilappatikAram with the title, "kuTimakkaL kAppiyam" Well, there are people who read socialism and/or communism into the philosophical stance that everything is the one Brahman, from the god brahmA to a blade of grass. But was that the intention of the original texts and authors? >('kAvya of the people'). Early Tamil bhakti poetry, at the >fountainhead of a mass cult that swept all across India, >was egalitarian in intent. It too drew inspiration and poets >from all the castes. After some centuries, Ramanujar made a >bold attempt to mitigate the caste effects through democratization. That again is the stuff of myth, of which there is plenty, from all over India, and about different people at different times. To read democratization in the modern sense into these stories is still revisionistic, wouldn't you say? Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Aug 18 23:33:00 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 00 00:33:00 +0100 Subject: CSX+ package for LaTeX (fwd) Message-ID: <161227061028.23782.770949618260829874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:27:16 +0100 (BST) From: John Smith Subject: CSX+ package for LaTeX Bob Hueckstedt and I have created a package to make it possible to use CSX+ fonts directly within LaTeX. The package consists of a set of virtual fonts (my work) implementing CSX+ versions of all the commonest text fonts, both Computer Modern and PostScript, and a set of sty and fd files (Bob's work) creating a simple LaTeX interface to the fonts. The package will probably eventually find its way on to CTAN, but for now it can be obtained from ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/software/fonts/csx+/TeX/LaTeX John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From sivabgs at YAHOO.COM Sat Aug 19 03:41:45 2000 From: sivabgs at YAHOO.COM (SUBSCRIBE INDOLOGY ganapathi) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 00 04:41:45 +0100 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061029.23782.9994117610387657772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi. I have been observing the interaction of the members re. the Sringeri and Kanchi Mutt matter. I understand that some of the members opine that there is no record for Kanchi mutt to prove their existence prior to 1830AD.. I could collect some material in this regard from the modi manuscripts. I invite u to contribute more on this subject. Those who feel that the kanchi Mutt doesn't have any evidence, may post their findings.. Thanks BGS From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Aug 19 12:22:12 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 00 12:22:12 +0000 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061036.23782.11121288256674659647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Contrary to the view that democracy in pre-19th century India were not there, there are detailed inscriptions about ballot casting from the Chola period. Below is the beginning sections of an article by the art historian, Dr. R. Nagaswamy who sent this to me a while ago. Regards, N. Ganesan --------------------- Elections in Chola times Dr.R.Nagaswamy Sir.S.Radhakrishnan, the former scholar President of India once said that " it is from history we learn that mankind has learnt nothing from history". It is very true and is best illustrated in the context of elections in India. One frequently hears now a days of "Democratic traditions" and "Democratic values" but when specific instances are cited , it is invariably the Western system or the Western experience that is sought to be cited as illustration. It would be interesting to look into some of the experiences gained by the Indian society itself thousand years ago in addressing itself to elections to Assemblies. The Chola rule in Tamilnad provides the best illustration, as it emphasized written tradition in public affairs. There exists a written constitution, dated 1020A.D., in the reign of Parantaka Chola prescribing qualifications and disqualification of candidates standing for elections and also the rules governing the mode of elections to Village or Municipal assemblies. The Governance was in the hands of members elected to the village assemblies. This paved the way for all round prosperity in production, trade, arts and culture, learning and literature. The monumental architecture spread through out the country and thousands of inscriptions stand witness to the effective functioning of this system of native democracy. The most vital questions addressed included the place of corruption, criminalisation, perpetrating dynastic or family rule and nativity. The rules enunciated were not only refreshingly modern but are of eternal value. If democratic traditions or values are to be cited, the Chola example points to the best that the Indian Society experienced. A record dated in 1020 A.D in the reign of Parantaka Chola found engraved on the walls of the Vaikunta perumal temple of Uttaramerur (50 KM from Madras) is the written constitution (Lekhya pramaana) for holding election to the village Assemblies. Volumes can be written on this record but only the parts relevant to modern context are highlighted and analyzed here. Foremost importance was given during Chola times to the elimination of corruption in public life. Among the various clauses mentioned for disqualifying candidates "Corruption" tops the list. Corruption mentioned as " Kaiyuuttu" was considered the worst enemy of public life so much so the corrupt were disqualified through out their life from standing for election. Not only the corrupt but also all his near relatives like his father, brother, uncle, wife's brother and others were barred. Virtually the corrupt both in his own line and his wife's line were debarred for ever. From this clause it is clear that the chola society foresaw that the crooked and corrupt would install his wife or near relatives and run benami transactions and saw such men are not given any opportunity to meddle with public life. It may be compared with the vociferous statements of some of the modern politicians that corruption is not an issue in election, thereby directly patronizing corruption. On the contrary the ancient democratic system found corruption as the root cause of all evils in public life. The second clause of importance found in the chola record relates to accountability mentioned as "epper patta kanakkum kaattaate iruntaan". Accountability is not confined to rendering accounts but all aspect of public functions. The elected men are accountable to the public for their public functions failing which they were to be removed from the membership forthwith. In modern parlance it amounts to recall of elected members. The chola records emphasize also efficient executions "kaaryatthil nipunan" Some scholars interpret that failure to show far-sightedness in dealing with public affairs will bring them under "totally inefficient " who should not be entrusted with the membership. For example they argue that the in the recently dissolved parliament the opposition did exercise their right to vote out the ruling combine which strengthens the fabric of democracy. At the same time that they did not have an alternative plan and failed miserably to give an alternative government Instead thrusted on the people the heavy burden of expenditure of election which otherwise could have been put to developmental investments. As they did not efficiently plan the alternative before pulling down the existing government their accountability and efficiency have fallen to the lowest ebb. Lack of efficiency and accountability were considered serious disqualification in Chola times. [...] ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jbapat at MELBPC.ORG.AU Sat Aug 19 04:38:28 2000 From: jbapat at MELBPC.ORG.AU (Jayant Bapat) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 00 14:38:28 +1000 Subject: etymology of the word devalaka Message-ID: <161227061031.23782.2118501584454939920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 0100,0100,0100Dear List Members Could someone help me with the etymology of the word DEVALAKA? Thanks, Jayant Dr. Jayant B. Bapat 44 Campbell Street, Glen Waverley, 3150.Victoria, Australia email- jbapat at melbpc.org.au Fax:61-3-9884-4055 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 273 bytes Desc: not available URL: From boedeker at NETCOLOGNE.DE Sat Aug 19 12:55:29 2000 From: boedeker at NETCOLOGNE.DE (Heike Boedeker) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 00 14:55:29 +0200 Subject: Tamil script: what is the traditional use of _aytam_ Message-ID: <161227061038.23782.6170220597941056334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear B. Philip, >I wonder what was the traditional use of _aytam_ in Tamil script? It seems >from what I've gleaned that it indicated some kinde of aspiration, perhaps >was a kind of visarga? It indeed, e.g. in Beythan's classical grammar (? 20), has been compared to the visarga insofar it denotes a postvocalic voiceless laryngeal or velar fricative ? i.e. in reading pronunciation: Zvelebil in his Comparative Dravidian Phonology, 1970, p. 161f, tends to reconstruct it as a glottal stop, McAlpin in Proto-Elamo-Dravidian, 1981, p. 26, as an unspecified laryngeal *H (maybe like, if I remember correctly, there is a variation of h ~ ' in Brahui). But then Beythan also makes clear that (a) it always is preconsonantal, (b) always final to a[n otherwise] short initial syllable (hence also its use for metric reasons, e.g. atu ~ ahtu "it", which links compensatory to expressive "lengthening"), (c) rather rare as far as concerns primary occurences (e.g. ehku "steel", kahcu "a weight [1/4 of a palam]") and often with doublets lacking it, (d) secondarily occuring as a combinatory variant of l and L (note that Beythan's reference to ?25 rather should read ?24). All the best, Heike From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Aug 19 15:38:34 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 00 15:38:34 +0000 Subject: Early Indian attitudes to Western Indology Message-ID: <161227061040.23782.17355448402238528874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tradition records teaching of vedas, sanskrit, tamil to the whites with hesitation, opposition, etc., A Dravidian example, and for the Telugu original, consult V. Narayanarao and D. Shulman, A poem at the right moment: remembered verses from premodern south India, p. 47 " New Age They now read proofs at printing shops just to stay alive, or teach Telugu to the white Huns, expound religion in the houses of those grocers who give them credit. Phenomenal scholars have been humbled. Times have changed." Did Maxmueller print the Veda from oral recitations first? Best, V. Iyer <<< In the last few centuries what were the Indian attitudes to passing on to the western colonizers the traditional knowledge of: 1)The Sanskrit language and literature in general. 2)The Vedas. When western editions of the Vedas were being prepared in the last century was this done only from manuscripts or were the Brahmin priests willing to recite them to foreigners. 3)Would it have been controversial for a Brahmin priest or traditional pandit to cooperate with a western indologist. >>> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Sat Aug 19 18:09:13 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 00 19:09:13 +0100 Subject: Migration of Indus Valley People Message-ID: <161227061042.23782.16119678234368721291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/indus/indus~3.htm I have discussed the recent decipherment of the Indus Script in this paper . Among the evidences collected, it shows that the Indus Valley people migrated to the Ganga Yamuna basin. The evidence also shows the metallurgical practises of the tribals living in Bihar state came from the Indus Valley . From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Aug 19 22:57:13 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 00 22:57:13 +0000 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism. Was: Rajaram's bull/Hindutva (response to BhG) Message-ID: <161227061146.23782.12254369454475235393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > The notion that "Hindu" as a religious category is a colonial fabrication > does not stand up to scrutiny. Let me reiterate, I said that the colonialists redefined Hindu to mean ONLY those who follow treat Shruti as revealed or prasthana. The Greeks, Turks, Lodis, Afghans, Mongols, Mughals (except Akbar, Dara Shikoh and some Sufis) never delved deep enough into the distinctions of Indian religious sects to use the word Hindu in any well defined sense. Hence it is always, as V Sunderseran pointed out the Other of Islam. By the 12th century even the natives called themselves Hindus to mean not Muslim. I think, one of the epigraphs of a Vijayanagar kings calls himself "Hindu raaya". This was first time in Indian history that an invading faith did not adopt at all, as did Greeks, Kushans, Huns etc., the Indian faiths but on the contrary persecuted and converted them. So Kabir and Nanak were using the common appellations. As late as Guru Gobind Singh who founded the Khalsa to defend the "Hindu faith" (jage dharma Hindu sakal bhaan.da bhajai) the definition was very inclusive. > Again, Lorenzen (p.20): > > "It is easy to demonstrate that nirguNI religion, particularly in its early > stages, has embodied a fairly direct rejection of the ideology of > varNAzramadharma." This is a major misconception. Says Kabir, Kaasii ko main bamman jayo, nam moraa Parviinaa Ek baar Hari naam cchaa.dayo so julaahaa kiinhaa. (I am quoting from memory) "I was a brahmin of Kaashii called Pravii.na, but because I forsook the name of Hari/Vishnu I made a (a low caste weaver). A total acceptance of the Var.na justification as social order depending upon the actions of merit and demerit of individual souls going through rebirth-cycle. The rejection of the brahmin's claim of superiorty (such as "tuu kyaa aan baa.t se jaayo", "were you born through a different path"? that is, other than the same polluted yoni-maarga as for the low castes) is in the context of debunking the claim of the pretentious Brahmins that they alone had access to Knowledge. That the lowest caste also have access to the Realisation is a reminder stated by Kabir. There was no special nirguni religion that he propounded. It was a continuation of Advaita practised through Sahaj yoga and Vaisha.nava sect. More later, on use of "Hindu" in medieval histories like Tabqaate Nasirii, Tariikhe-Ferozshahii, Miraate-Sikandarii, etc.. Right now the teaching session is in full swing. best wishes, Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Aug 20 00:19:46 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 00 00:19:46 +0000 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061046.23782.11010438727857919539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Contrary to the view that democracy in pre-19th century India >were not there, there are detailed inscriptions about ballot casting >from the Chola period. Below is the beginning sections of an article >by the art historian, Dr. R. Nagaswamy who sent this to me a while ago. Thanks for the reference. Makes for very interesting reading. Corruption and inefficiency are good reasons to remove someone from his post. But why debar all the relatives of such a man, unless the default option was to make any such appointment hereditary? Do we have evidence for what qualified a person to be appointed to an administrative post in the first place? Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Aug 20 01:33:19 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 00 01:33:19 +0000 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061050.23782.3734629935758263773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >1830AD.. I could collect some material in this regard from the modi 1821 - inscriptional record. >manuscripts. I invite u to contribute more on this subject. Those who feel >that the kanchi Mutt doesn't have any evidence, may post their findings.. > A lot of this has already been posted, hasn't it? Please search the list archives for relevant keywords, and do share the results of your research on manuscripts. Just a minor point - Wouldn't it be more objective not to frame your discussion solely in terms of Sringeri and Kanchi mathas? The evidence about each of these institutions could be individually discussed, without having to constantly refer to the other. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sun Aug 20 01:24:47 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 00 02:24:47 +0100 Subject: The "Net of Indra" Message-ID: <161227061048.23782.1015008687588051670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lance, > > > Not the Avatam.saka which is a Chinese collection of materials, not > >> all of which has been proven to be of Indian origin. > All I said was 'not proven' ! I have no problems with that part of your statement but I was querying the "Chinese collection of materials" bit since, as I said, the Tibetan version is clearly not dependent on any of the extant Chinese versions. > Some of them > could have been composed in Central Asia. Conceivably they could have > been written there in Sanskrit or in some other language. But none of > this seems very certain; so I simply said 'not proven to be of Indian > origin'. Does this imply any extra validity to Mahayana texts written in Sanskrit/Prakrit in India rather than in Central Asia ? -- given that Mahayana sutras in general are not really what they claim to be. The situation seems to be similar with the other large "collections" like the Ratnaku.ta, the Nirvana Sutra and others. > I do not know sufficient about the Tibetan version. I have seen you > mention this before, but I do not know why older scholarship did not > accept this. It's a mystery to me as well ! > Assuming that it is not from one of the extant Chinese > versions (as I had earlier understood) how do we know that it is not > translated from a Central Asian or lost Chinese original ? If you read a lot of Tibetan texts, one gradually gets a feel for the language of the texts. Ones from Indic sources betray the underlying language by traces of construction, circumlocution etc. The same applies for the few texts of Chinese origin in Tibetan -- they also reflect the underlying Chinese for the same reasons. On the other hand, texts of native Tibetan composition that pose as authentic Indic texts (like some Nyingma tantras) read differently -- generally more smoothly as Tibetan. Best wishes, Stephen From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Sun Aug 20 06:49:02 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 00 07:49:02 +0100 Subject: The "Net of Indra" In-Reply-To: <004d01c00a45$94ad9940$0a2c893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227061052.23782.3570562824040592032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stephen, > > > > Not the Avatam.saka which is a Chinese collection of materials, >not >> >> all of which has been proven to be of Indian origin. > >> All I said was 'not proven' ! >I have no problems with that part of your statement but I was querying >the "Chinese collection of materials" bit since, as I said, the >Tibetan version is clearly not dependent on any of the extant Chinese >versions. > Fair enough. I probably should have mentioned the Tibetan materials as well. It remains the case that we should look to the Ga.n.?avyuuha for the moment for an Indian source for these ideas. > > Some of them >> could have been composed in Central Asia. Conceivably they could >have >> been written there in Sanskrit or in some other language. But none >of >> this seems very certain; so I simply said 'not proven to be of >Indian >> origin'. > >Does this imply any extra validity to Mahayana texts written in >Sanskrit/Prakrit in India rather than in Central Asia ? -- given >that Mahayana sutras in general are not really what they claim to be. >The situation seems to be similar with the other large "collections" >like the Ratnaku.ta, the Nirvana Sutra and others. I don't think validity is an issue for historical scholarship and philology. That's a matter for Mahaayaana Buddhists themselves and they have clearly taken different views in different cases. It seems equally doubtful whether the Ratnakuu.ta existed as a collection in India. (By India here one means ancient South Asia and contiguous areas.) > > Assuming that it is not from one of the extant Chinese >> versions (as I had earlier understood) how do we know that it is not >> translated from a Central Asian or lost Chinese original ? >If you read a lot of Tibetan texts, one gradually gets a feel for the >language of the texts. Ones from Indic sources betray the underlying >language by traces of construction, circumlocution etc. The same >applies for the few texts of Chinese origin in Tibetan -- they also >reflect the underlying Chinese for the same reasons. On the other >hand, texts of native Tibetan composition that pose as authentic Indic >texts (like some Nyingma tantras) read differently -- generally more >smoothly as Tibetan. That doesn't rule out a composition in Sanskrit in Central Asia. This means that in the Indian context we cannot confidently look for influences on other works. We also have to consider the possibility of its reaching India at some point from there. Are you confident of ruling out Iranian languages from Central Asia, probably using many Sanskrit loanwords ? This may sound rather negative of me. But I remain bothered by the total lack of references to the Avata.msaka collection in India to date. Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sun Aug 20 15:41:09 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 00 08:41:09 -0700 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061059.23782.8158238016323465173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > I have > the whole text > of the Tamil inscription from a few different > articles, (eg., > 'Kamban aDippoDi' S. Ganesan's from the 1968 World > Tamil conference > volume, etc.,) somewhere. Surely, the book on > uttaramErUr > by Nagasamy will have it. Dr Ganesan, The relevant portion of the inscription dealing with the pot ticket ("kuTavOlai") method of electing sabha officials is available in translation in Romila Thapar's "History of India". If my memory serves me right, it may also be available in Nilakanta Sastri's "The Colas", esp. the 2nd edition of 1955 which has summaries of inscriptions. (I don't have these books handy right now). In any case I'm not convinced that the process can be called 'democratic'. In fact in modern terms it may be looked upon as a plutocratic set-up. For example, the only eligible candidates for office were those who owned property in the said brahmadeya village. Consider the following discussion QUOTE The population of a place like Uttaramerur ... must have been very large if the elaborate rules for selecting holders of the village offices (vAriyam) were even partially followed. These rules provided for the selection of forty-two members of the mahasabha to serve on five committees ... Each of the mahAjanas, or members of the great assembly, selected for membership of the committees had to meet rigorous qualifications and be free of specfied disabilities. The qualifications were those of age (between 37 and 70 years), Vedic learning and teaching experience, and minimum property expressed as a share of the lands possessed by the Brahmans of the place; disabilities involved having served on the sabha in the previous three years, being shown derelict in the execution of previous offices (...), having committed the sin of incest or other similarly serious transgressions such as theft, consuming polluted food withoput having undergone purificatory rites, and having been adjudged an 'enemy of the village (grAmakaNTaka)'. Considering these restrictions and the rotational rules on balloting, a village like Uttaramerur would have had a large population in order to provide anything approaching an adequate panel of candidates. (B. Stein, Peasant, State and Society in Medieval South India, OUP, Delhi, 1980, pp. 146-47.) END QUOTE Although a similar record is not available for the other assemblies such as the Ur etc, it stands to reason that a minimum property requirement would have been a pre-requisite there too. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Aug 20 12:07:37 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 00 12:07:37 +0000 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061054.23782.15699433237751715279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Thanks for the reference. Makes for very interesting reading. Corruption and inefficiency are good reasons to remove someone from his post. But why debar all the relatives of such a man, unless the default option was to make any such appointment hereditary? Do we have evidence for what qualified a person to be appointed to an administrative post in the first place? >>> In the detailed long inscription of ParAntaka Cholan dated 1020 A.D., there are two sections: one on qualifications, the other on disqualifications, and some other material. I have the whole text of the Tamil inscription from a few different articles, (eg., 'Kamban aDippoDi' S. Ganesan's from the 1968 World Tamil conference volume, etc.,) somewhere. Surely, the book on uttaramErUr by Nagasamy will have it. Also, check Kanchi Sankaracharyar's Deivattin kural has some chapters on it. Etc., It is interesting that many in Indian studies have not heard of this. Dr. Nagaswamy's article (later appeared in The Hindu) mainly focusses on the disqualifications, that too few points of the uttaramErUr inscription. In the context of Bofors, Mme. Jaya, ... Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Sun Aug 20 13:08:57 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 00 14:08:57 +0100 Subject: Is there an Indian Connection to Ptolemy's Fraud of Data ? Message-ID: <161227061056.23782.14027710514082972097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It has been published in a book by a professor at Baltimore that Ptolemy fudged the data . Those observations could not have been made in Egypt . This professor writes that those were from those of a Greek whose name started with a letter H. I have read a book by Kaye on Hindu Astronomy . He mentions that this astronomy , prior to Ptolemy, was indigenous but later on ( post second century A.D. ) , were essentially borrowed from Ptolemy's ideas. The Hindu Astronomers would include those in the Vikramaditya's court, and later on . It appears very surprising to me that the whole school of Indian thinking would change so quickly . At least, the truth should be known . Anand M. Sharan From kekai at JPS.NET Sun Aug 20 21:46:17 2000 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 00 14:46:17 -0700 Subject: Migration of Indus Valley People Message-ID: <161227061044.23782.7614580696696141451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Prof. Sharan, I'm wondering if you have images of the signs used by the Santals themselves. Also, if you have the values of the other signs, I would really like to see them as I don't have access to the main reference in your work. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala "Anand M. Sharan" wrote: > > http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/indus/indus~3.htm > > I have discussed the recent decipherment of the Indus Script in this > paper . Among the evidences collected, it shows that the Indus Valley > people migrated to the Ganga Yamuna basin. The evidence also shows the > metallurgical practises of the tribals living in Bihar state came from the > Indus Valley . -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Aug 20 15:17:10 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 00 15:17:10 +0000 Subject: Migration of Indus Valley People Message-ID: <161227061058.23782.10409129566827574301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Sharan, Long ago, P.L.Samy, I.A.S., published articles and a book on the signs among tribes in Tamil Nadu and Kerala who resemble very much like the Indus valley script signs. P. L. Samy, Tamil nATTil CintuveLi ezuttOviyam, Chennai: Cekar patippakam, 1984, 96 p. (available in major South Asia collections across USA). Subsequently, in other sites in Tamil Nadu, the ivc-like signs have also been found. For example, in the mountains near PerumukkUTal in Arcot district. P.L.Samy, a relative of L.D.Swamikannu Pillai who compiled the monumental Indian Ephemeris comparing several panchAngams, inscriptions in all of India comapring all the Indian calenders, passed away just a few months ago. Reading the sangam texts, P.L.Samy decades ago theorized that Skanda-Murukan is not a youthful deity, but rather caused diseases to children or love-sickness on young girls (cf. caGka ilakkiyattil murukan2). This compares well with the MBh. mentioning about Skanda. Using Samy's approach, Iravatham Mahadevan has interpreted a major IVC sign as Murukan(=Skanda-Subrahmanya) recently. I. Mahadevan, 'Murukan' in the Indus script, p. 21-40. J. Inst. of Asian studies (Madras), vol. XVI, no. 2, March 1999. Once, Prof. Parpola asked me to send the writings by P.L.Samy. I am confidant that when Thiru. Samy's findings get into the Indian studies discipline, hypotheses will have to be reworked. Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Sun Aug 20 18:43:13 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 00 19:43:13 +0100 Subject: Migration of Indus Valley People Message-ID: <161227061061.23782.16923564151949949853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Ganeshan: Thank you very much for the information . Certainly, there is a need to look at sign interpretations from various locations in India . The Indus Valley culture still lives on in different parts of India . It is just that these have not been looked at by common masses in India . The study of this civilization is still not very common. I would look into the references mentioned by you. Regards, Anand M. Sharan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Aug 20 23:15:54 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 00 23:15:54 +0000 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061063.23782.2095352045460688990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Although a similar record is not available for the >other assemblies such as the Ur etc, it stands to >reason that a minimum property requirement would have >been a pre-requisite there too. Thanks, Sir for the references. Was thinking the same, (KAN Sastri, Stein, ...). Will check Thapar book which I have. But: propertied white males only were given voting rights even in 19th century Northeast USA. Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Aug 20 23:37:39 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 00 00:37:39 +0100 Subject: SV: Witzels's scholarly translations In-Reply-To: <2C9E855D35B9D01198190020AFFBE8CB067FC8DF@exs04.ex.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <161227061065.23782.8776316305469268655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please do not repost old INDOLOGY messages to the list to "prove a point". It is not necessary, and wastes valuable time and bandwidth. In general, please, please keep quotation to an absolute minimum. All INDOLOGY messages are archived, and each individual message has its own number, and can be referred to by a unique URL. So please, if you need to refer to an earlier message, do so using the facilities provided by our excellent software and the list owners. Thus, the original "panzer" message by Subrahmanya can conveniently be referred to as 11863 or http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9804&L=indology&P=R351 Thank you. > -----Original Message----- > From: Subrahmanya S. [mailto:subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 8:20 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: SV: Witzels's scholarly translations > [...] > Your quotes about vedic "tanks" have already been given > I will repost your vedic tank gems on this list as well,later > when I have more time. > -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From maran_kathirchelvan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 21 00:48:40 2000 From: maran_kathirchelvan at HOTMAIL.COM (Maran Kathirchelvan) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 00 00:48:40 +0000 Subject: bull on brahmanism Message-ID: <161227061067.23782.10758414657019062352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/14/2000 9:28:51 PM Central Daylight Time, rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM writes: >What has worked out recently for the ruling party are >strategic regional alliances and the stability card. People in tamil nadu >voted for the BJP even though they would >not have them at the state level. > In any case the BJP is not a bastion for brahmanism. As Dr. Vidyasankar Sundaresan said, the reality is more complicated and different. Check out the following web sites. The first URL is supported by the later ones, almost as expanded footnotes. The second half of the Outlook article follows the piece about West Bengal. What should be of interest to Indologists is the move away from the emphasis on the Grand Sanskritic tradition. Outlook Magazine's FOCUS section Dec 6, 1999. "Southward, the Tide - Tamil Nadu was supposed to be the antipode of the BJP. Now, times are visibly changing." http://www.outlookindia.com/19991206/focus.htm The Rediff Interviews: 1. Dr J Jeyaranjan, social scientist at the Madras Institute of Development Studies: http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/jun/11dmk.htm 2. Ramagopalan, President of the Hindu Munnani. http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/may/22munani.htm 3. Sri Jayendra Saraswathi, the Shankaracharya of the Sri Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam, Kanchipuram, http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/nov/26inter.htm News Items: 1. The Hindu's "Talk of the town" "DMK leader Mr. M. K. Stalin and the Kanchi Acharyas" http://www.the-hindu.com/2000/06/21/stories/0421401y.htm 2. Rediff says "Karunanidhi turns pro-brahmin as caste war flares up in TN bureaucracy" http://www.rediff.com/news/nov/04tn.htm Regards, Maran Kathirchelvan. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Aug 21 06:16:16 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 00 02:16:16 -0400 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061069.23782.4161971091961692059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is not widely known. But, indeed, the kuTavOlai process was in existence in CT times also. Consider the following lines of akanAn2URu 77:7-11. kayiRu piNi kuzici Olai koNmAr poRi kaNTu azikkum AvaNa mAkkaLin2 uyir tiRam peyara nal amar kaTanta taRukaNALar kuTar tarIi teRuvara ce cevi eruvai ajncuvara ikukkum This is a love poem of the desolate pAlai landscape. The theme deals with the hero thinking about a journey through a harsh land. The description of the land involves vultures and dead warriors. The vultures moving aside the armor/clothes covering dead warriors' bodies, tearing into the bodies and pulling out the entrails is compared to the officials removing the seals of pots that had been bound by ropes and reaching into the pots and removing the palm leaves. Even M.G.S. Narayanan (Foundations of South Indian Society and Culture, 1994, p. 109) says of the CT times that "it may be inferred that people drawn from different ethnic and professional groups were being transformed into land-owning cultivators in course of time." Thus whatever may be the later medieval criteria regarding the eligibility of candidates, it is highly likely that during CT period or earlier, kuTavOlai process must have been democratic. The early democratic nature of Tamil society is also underscored by its literacy. In his paper, "From Orality to Literacy: The Case of the Tamil Society", Iravatham Mahadevan says, "Another noteworthy feature of early Tamil literacy was its popular or democratic character, based as it was on the local language of the people. Literacy seems to have been widespread in all the regions of the Tamil country, both in urban and rural areas, and encompassing within its reach all strata of the Tamil society. The primary evidence for this situation comes from inscribed pottery, relatively more numerous in Tamilnadu than elsewhere in the country?The pottery inscriptions are secular in character and the names occurring in them indicate that common people from all strata of the Tamil society made these scratchings or scriblings on pottery owned by them. On the other hand the inscribed pottery excavated from Upper South Indian sites is all in Prakrit and is mostly associated with religious centres like Amaravati and Salihundam. (To be continued) Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Aug 21 06:58:18 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 00 02:58:18 -0400 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061071.23782.12016700705206634603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Literacy is not merely the acquisition of reading and writing skills. To be meaningful and creative, literacy has to be based on one's own mother tongue. In this sense the early Tamil society had achieved true literacy with a popular base rooted in the native language. On the other hand, Upper South India had in this period only elitist literacy based on Prakrit and not the native languages of the region. ... The main reason for the contrasting developments in the growth of literacy as between the two regions appears to be the political independence of the Tamil country and its absence in Upper South India at the relevant period?As a direct result of political independence, Tamil remained the language of administration, of learning and instruction, and of public discourse throughout the Tamil country...That is, while the Brahmi script was borrowed, the Prakrit language was not allowed to be imposed along with it from outside. ? References to self-governing village councils like ambalam, potiyil and man2Ram in the Sangam literature and to mercantile guilds (nigama) in the Tamil-Brahmi records show that there was a long tradition of local self-government in the Tamil society. In such an environment literacy would have received special impetus as it would serve to strengthen local self-government institutions and mercantile guilds." (Studies in History, 11, 2, n.s., 1995, p.182-5) Vidyasankar said, "Well, there are people who read socialism and/or communism into the philosophical stance that everything is the one Brahman, from the god brahmA to a blade of grass." The universalist ideals of Tamil society were not based on such an unrealistic view of life. They were grounded in a very pragmatic attitude. (see puRam 189). Thus, Classical Tamil culture was different from the Indian culture as it is usually understood. Regards S. Palaniappan From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 21 11:22:09 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 00 11:22:09 +0000 Subject: Originality of Shankara's dialectic Message-ID: <161227061075.23782.17665936473202613403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Has any study been done on the originality of Shankara's dialectic against rival schools? There's been constant dialectic duels between the various schools for a long time before Shankara. Each school had probed the weakness of the doctrines of rival schools and criticized them. So how much of Shankara's dialectic against rival schools is original? How much of his criticisms have already been brought out by earlier philosophers? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Mon Aug 21 09:58:32 2000 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 00 12:58:32 +0300 Subject: Migration of Indus Valley People In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061073.23782.12066251681077231624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Excuse me, please, if it was mentioned already in some previous postings, but Prof. B.B.Lal had studied the relation between South Indian signs on pottery and IVC writing system in his article: B.B.Lal. From the Megalithic to the Harappa. - "Ancient India", 1960 (no page numbers in my records). Best regards Yaroslav Vassilkov Sun, 20 Aug 100 18:17 +0300 MSK N. Ganesan wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: > Long ago, P.L.Samy, I.A.S., published articles and a book > on the signs among tribes in Tamil Nadu and Kerala > who resemble very much like the Indus valley script signs. > > P. L. Samy, Tamil nATTil CintuveLi ezuttOviyam, > Chennai: Cekar patippakam, 1984, 96 p. --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Institute of Oriental Studies Mon, 21 Aug 100 12:52 +0300 MSK From jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 21 14:36:14 2000 From: jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM (Jesualdo Correia) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 00 14:36:14 +0000 Subject: B. Kelner's email Message-ID: <161227061077.23782.787879359742163012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been sending with no success a message to Birgitt Kelner's email address available in her homepage. Which is the new one ? Thanks Jesualdo Correia ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Aug 22 13:55:23 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 00 06:55:23 -0700 Subject: author's data Message-ID: <161227061083.23782.16707451956300620344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is Mildred Archer, w/o W.G.Archer retired? Company paintings : Indian paintings of the British period Mildred Archer, assisted by Graham Parlett. London : Victoria & Albert Museum ; Ahmedabad : Mapin Pub. Pvt. 1992. ------------------------------------- M.S. Randhawa wrote a lot of books on agriculture, gardens, horticulture, trees. After the partition, he was involved in settling of refugees in the Punjab, and in the Indian council of Agricultural research. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Aug 22 13:17:31 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 00 09:17:31 -0400 Subject: job announcement Message-ID: <161227061080.23782.9825191300608817059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the POSITIONS section of SARAI. Please contact job posters directly for any further info. David Magier http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ====================== POSITION: Urdu Language Specialist (Lernout & Hauspie) Lernout & Hauspie Speech Products (L&H) is a global leader in advanced speech and language solutions for computers, cars, telecommunications, embedded products, consumer goods and the internet. The company makes the speech user interface (SUI), the keystone of simple, convenient interaction between humans and technology, and uses advanced translation technology to break down cultural barriers. The L&H team counts more than 5000 people worldwide. The headquarters are located in Ieper, Belgium. For the development of Urdu language and speech technology, Lernout & Hauspie is currently looking for: Urdu Language Specialists for the Corporate R&D Division located in Ieper (Belgium) Function: You will work within a multi-disciplinary team of linguists, engineers and programmers on the development of software systems in the field of Speech, Artificial Intelligence and Language. In the startup phase, your tasks will typically include: basic phonetic and language study in view of technology development and assessment of third party providers of data and/or technology. You will be involved in all aspects of the development life cycle and focus on system specification and design, implementation of linguistic rule sets, creation of acoustic and lexical databases, grapheme to phoneme conversion, prosodic analysis, software testing and quality control, preparation of documentation. Training is given both on-the-job and through lectures and technical documentation. Dedicated development environments are provided which allow language specialists to focus on their content: formalizing linguistic knowledge. You will report to the group or project manager. Profile: university degree in philology or linguistics, or equivalent; (near) native Urdu speaker with a conversational level of English; solid grounding in linguistic theory; good knowledge of and/or experience in one or more of the following areas: speech processing, natural language processing (NLP), computational linguistics, programming, other languages; ability to work in a team and independently; If you are interested in this job opportunity and you believe to fulfil the required profile, we have to meet each other. Please send your detailed resume to: Lernout & Hauspie Speech Products Personnel Department Attn. Pierre Eggermont Flanders Language Valley, 50 B-8900 Ieper BELGIUM To learn more about Lernout & Hauspie and its products, visit our homepage (http://www.lhs.com). You may also want to send an e-mail to job-announce at lhs.be to obtain a list of all current job openings at L&H. From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Aug 22 19:47:18 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 00 12:47:18 -0700 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061094.23782.12998551320394787714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a recent post I quoted from D. Lorenzen (1995) to the effect that "Hindu" as a religious category was not a colonial invention. Those interested in a detailed analysis can now see: Lorenzen, David N. 1999. Who Invented Hinduism? Comparative Studies in Society and History 41, no. 4: 630-659. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Tue Aug 22 10:11:12 2000 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 00 13:11:12 +0300 Subject: author's data Message-ID: <161227061079.23782.16367055645863830344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rosa EG Franco asked about William George Archer and M.S. Randhawa. Extracted from the MS. of: K. Karttunen: WHO WAS WHO IN WESTERN INDOLOGY. Including South Asian, Iranian, and Tibetan Studies. A Biographical Dictionary ARCHER, William George. 11.2.1907 ? 6.3.1979. British Ethnologist and Art Historian of India. In India 1931?48, then at the Victoria and Albert Museum. Son of William A., educated at Strand School. Studied history at Cambridge (Emmanuel College) and aspired for a good position in Whitehall, but poor success (bad handwriting) at the Home and I.C.S. Examination changed his plans. In 1931 he came to India for I.C.S., was posted in Bihar and soon developed an interested in India. Began as Sub-Divisional Of?cer, then 1938-39 District Magistrate in Purnea, 1939-41 Super-Intendent of the Census in Bihar, 1941-42 District Magistrate in Patna, 1942-45 Deputy Commissioner of the Santal Parganas, then 1945-46 Special Of?cer investigating Santal Law, and 1946-48 Additional Deputy Commissioner in the Naga Hills. In 1934 married with ?> Mildred A., one son, one daughter. In 1948 WGA returned to England. In 1949-59 Keeper of the Indian Section of the Victoria and Albert Museum, from 1959 Keeper emeritus. Began his scholarly career as Ethnologist, but in Patna interested soon in Mali and Maithili paintings, and concentrated in art history. Wrote, among other works, a monumental handbook of Pahari miniatures. Publications: The Blue Grove: the Poetry of the Uraons. 210 p. L. 1940; The Vertical Man: A Study in Primitive Indian Sculpture. 122 p. L. 1947 (Ahirs); The Hill of Flutes. Life, Love, and Poetry in Tribal India. A Portrait of the Santals. 379 p. 1972; Tribal law and justice: a report on the Santal. 1-3. 36+7+741 p. N.D. 1984. Edited: Man in India 1942-49. ? Songs for the Bride: Wedding Rites of rural India. Ed. by B. S. Miller & M. Archer. 40+181 p. Studies in Oriental Cultures 20. N.?Y. 1985. ? Indian painting in the Punjab Hills. 98 p. L. 1952; Kangra painting. 24 p. 10 pl. L. 1952; Bazaar paintings of Calcutta. 76 p. L. 1953; Garhwal painting. 24 p. 10 pl. L. 1954; Indian painting. 1957; The loves of Krishna. Indian painting and poetry. 127 p. 39 pl. L. 1957; Indian paintings from Rajasthan. 1957; Central Indian painting. 22 p. L. 1958; Indian painting in Bundi and Kotah. 58 p. L. 1959; India and modern art. 143 p. L. 1959; Indian miniatures. L. 1960; Kalighat drawings. 1962; Paintings of the Sikhs. 284 p. L. 1966; Kalighat paintings. A Catalogue and an Introduction. 127 p. L. 1971. ? with M. Archer: Indian painting for the British 1770?1880. 145 p. 24 pl. L. 1955. ? with S. Paranavitana: Ceylon: paintings from temple shrine and rock. 1958. ? edited: Ka*ma Su*tra, translated by Sir R. Burton and F.?F. Arbuthnot. 1963; Love Songs of Vidya*pati. Transl. by Deben Bhattacharya, edited with an introd., notes and comments by W.?G. A. 148 p. L. 1963; Koka ?a*stra. 1964 (= Ratirahasya); Sa?di*'s Gulista*n. 1964. ? Indian paintings from the Punjab Hills. 1?2. 1972. Sources: R. Skelton, JRAS 1979, 186?188; Who Was Who 1970-80. Of Mohinder Singh Randhawa I do not have a full biography. He was old enough to be active before the independence. He was the special commissioner of Chandigarh and the Vice-Chancellor of the Agricultural University of Chandigarh and still living in the 1980s. He wrote at least 10 books about Indian painting and a few about sculpture. I?m sorry that my transcription font will not be readable in correct form, but that cannot be helped. Regards Klaus From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Aug 22 14:35:20 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 00 15:35:20 +0100 Subject: Dun Huang MSS Message-ID: <161227061085.23782.682361105340625412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:37:54 -0700 From: Vivienne Lo Dunhuang 2000: The Medical Manuscripts 10th September, SOAS Programme, abstracts, biographies of speakers and registration details are posted on the conference website url is http://www.soas.ac.uk/dunhuang2000 In January 2001 it will be one hundred years since Sven Hedin (1865 - 1952) excavated the first bamboo manuscripts from a Wei/Jin dynasty tomb and stimulated a new era of research into ancient Chinese manuscripts. To celebrate this centenary four eminent scholars from the history departments at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences and the Academy of Research into Chinese Medicine will spend three months in London examining the Dunhuang Manuscripts related to medicine. Their visit will culminate in an international conference on early Chinese Medicine at the Centre for the History and Culture of Medicine, SOAS on September, 10th September 2000. For more information contact viv.lo at iname.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Aug 22 14:52:15 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 00 15:52:15 +0100 Subject: FRASKT in CSX and more. (fwd) Message-ID: <161227061087.23782.8543461979377652463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 15:54:01 +0200 From: Andr? Signoret Subject: FRASKT in CSX and more. I am pleased to tell you that My French-Sanskrit Dictionary is henceforth available in two Formats : 1? For NINA fonts (as before) 2? For Time CSX fonts (suitable for non-French K-Boards) Search from Sanskrit to French is now possible in both versions that, moreover, do work with Winword 2000. Suitable links are to be found on my Page : http://asignoret.free.fr/index.html Direct links are (all in low case) : NINA : http://asignoret.free.fr/fraskt00.exe CSX : http://asignoret.free.fr/frsktcsx.exe Updating Files for Dictionary alone (when available) have the same nouns with ZIP extension (instead of EXE). I expect that these pieces of information will be useful for Anglo-Saxon and non-French Users. Special numeric keys (from 1 to 5) allow for the insertion of French accents and cedilla. Remerciements anticip?s et cordiales salutations. Andr?. Andr? Signoret Les Romarins 84460 CHEVAL-BLANC T?l. +33(0)490710910 Portable 0609450202 E-mail : sanskrit at club-internet.fr Site Web : http://asignoret.free.fr/index.html From sivabgs at YAHOO.COM Tue Aug 22 16:01:55 2000 From: sivabgs at YAHOO.COM (SUBSCRIBE INDOLOGY ganapathi) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 00 17:01:55 +0100 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061089.23782.10126975647703565209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, Re. THE KANCHI SHANKARA MUTT AND TANJORE MODI DOCUMENTS: There are about 59 Documents (modi manuscripts translated into Tamil and note books containing hints in Tamil pertaining to those records) in the Thanjavur Maharaja Serfoji?s Saraswathi Mahaal Library. During 1984, The Tamil University,Tanjore published a book in Tamil on the ?Administration and Social Life under the Maratha Rulers of Thanjavur?, with the help of these documents. The Saraswathi Mahaal Library had also been published two volumes (?Modi Palakani?) containing the copies of these Documents. We could find a lot of information/references about the various Mutts and the Ascetics from them. The Modi manuscripts related to the Kanchi Shankara Mutt belong to the period between 1786-1863AD. 01. Doc.No.21-6,20-38,3-45and 4-286 ?..H.H.Sankarachary was paid annually large sums of money for the conduct of worship of Chandramouleeswar and of the Vyasa Pooja in the solar month of Ashada.This grant continued perhaps upto 1798AD? 02.Doc. Nos.1-312,4-30,5-6,9-37 etc., mention about the kanakabhishekams performed by the tanjore King to the Shankaracharyas of Kanchi between 1801-1850AD. 03.Doc.No.4-74 to 85 ? During the reign of Prathapa Simha (1739-1763AD) the head of Kanchi Peetam, while he was camping at Udayar Palayam, was induced to go to Thanjavur.The Pontiff, who wanted to reside at some place on the banks of the Kaveri, preferred to reside at Kumbhakonam.Thereupon the Rajah built a mutt for him at the Dabir Agraharam, gifted him with inam lands,utensils of silver and gold,jewels,horses and elephants.? The Ahobhila Mutt,Big Mutt,Sircar Mutt,Meruswami Mutt,Siva pooja Mutt,Goswami Mutt,Uttaradhi Mutt,Vyasaraya Mutt,Dharmapuram and Thiruvavaduthurai Mutt were some of the other Mutts known to us from the Modi records. I invite the list members to share their views on the subject.. Thanks BGS From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Tue Aug 22 17:25:26 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 00 18:25:26 +0100 Subject: author's data In-Reply-To: <20000822135523.11913.qmail@web312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227061092.23782.1090064470775470889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote > Is Mildred Archer, w/o W.G.Archer retired? Yes, I was told by the Victoria and Albert Museum staff a couple of years ago that she had retired. From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Wed Aug 23 06:47:14 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 00 23:47:14 -0700 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061100.23782.15291272784424086826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- nanda chandran wrote: > S Palaniappan writes : > ..> > >The universalist ideals of Tamil society were not based on such an > >unrealistic view of life. They were grounded in a very pragmatic attitude. > >(see puRam 189). > ... > > All this is only a criticism of "arguments motivated by linguistic and > racial chauvinism" and should not be interpreted as hatred of Tamil or the > Tamil people. :-)) Eminently avoidable comment. Reminds me of a very famous Tamil aphorism: "eGkappan2 kutirukkuL illai!" ["My dad is not [hiding] in the barn!" - uttered by the bankrupt son of a bankrupt person avoiding creditors] Cheers P. Chandrasekaran. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 23 03:47:43 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 00 03:47:43 +0000 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061096.23782.6914676262591166124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri BGS/Ganapathi (?), As an inscription dated 1821 is found in Kumbhakonam, it stands to reason that there must have been a matha there for a few decades before that date. I don't think that people and institutions suddenly come into being, on the date of the first available written record. Since you obviously seem to have the Tanjavur Sarasvati Mahal publications with you, could you please share with us the following information? >?..H.H.Sankarachary was paid annually large sums of money for the conduct >of worship of Chandramouleeswar and of the Vyasa Pooja in the solar The given name of this ascetic? "Sankaracharya" is too generic a term for this place and time. And the place associated with this Sankaracharya - Kumbhakonam or Tiruvidaimarudur or Kanchipuram? Do the manuscripts refer to the head of a Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, or just of a Matham in Kumbhakonam? Polakam Rama Sastri's book on the lineage constantly refers to it as a "Sarada Matha" - is such a term found in these manuscripts? >02.Doc. Nos.1-312,4-30,5-6,9-37 etc., mention about the kanakabhishekams >performed by the tanjore King to the Shankaracharyas of Kanchi between >1801-1850AD. Names again, of the Sankaracharya(s) and of the king(s)? As you may be aware, there were at least two branches of the Tanjavur Maratha family, until 1798. In 1799, after Serfoji ascended to the throne, the British took over in all but name. Also, places - Kumbhakonam or Tiruvidaimarudur or Kanchipuram? >03.Doc.No.4-74 to 85 > >? During the reign of Prathapa Simha (1739-1763AD) the head of Kanchi >Peetam, while he was camping at Udayar Palayam, was induced to go to >Thanjavur.The Pontiff, who wanted to reside at some place on the banks of >the Kaveri, preferred to reside at Kumbhakonam.Thereupon the Rajah There are two questions of dates - 1. Pratapasimha ousted the legitimate king, Shahuji, only in 1749. A date of 1739 is too early for him, as Shahuji's mother was regent from 1737 to 1740, and Shahuji ruled 1740 - 1749. Is the above material a primary quotation from the mss, or is it the author's/editor's reconstruction of history? If the latter, he has made a mistake. If the former, there is room for doubt. 2. Is a reason given for a move from Udayarpalayam to Tanjavur? And are there more specific details of who it was who first came to Udayarpalayam and then moved to Tanjavur, when, from where and why? The standard account of the Kanchi Matha says that the major wars fought by the British, the Nawab of Arcot, the Nizam of Hyderabad and Haider/Tipu of Mysore forced a move to Udayarpalayam and from there to Kumbhakonam. However, these wars did not start till around 1767, and Pratapasimha was no longer around at this time. Kumbhakonam is the site of the widely known Veda Pathasala named after Govinda Dikshita, the minister of the earlier Nayaka rulers of Tanjavur. As you may also be aware, in the 19th century, all the Sankaracharyas at Kumbhakonam were selected only from among his descendants. Like many other similar institutions in that period, the Kumbhakonam matha was primarily associated with a specific family and had a following primarily from a particular Brahmana sub-caste. Such a situation continues with most of the minor Advaita mathas today, and with almost all the Dvaita mathas. It is well attested that the Kumbhakonam matha moved to Kanchipuram between 1842 and 1868. The question that causes the biggest controversy is whether the said matha came to Kumbhakonam from Kanchipuram in the first place, and if so, when. That still needs to be addressed. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 23 05:48:26 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 00 05:48:26 +0000 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061098.23782.5190277270489960555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Palaniappan writes : >"it may be inferred that people drawn from different ethnic and >professional groups were being transformed into land-owning cultivators in >course of time." Is this really true? Do Tamil Indologists deny that there existed a Tamil caste system - VellALar, Maravar, Paraiyar etc. Or do they attribute even this caste system - so distinct from the varnA system - to brahmins? And I find it difficult to believe that VellALars would allow paraiyars to become land owners. >"Another noteworthy feature of early Tamil literacy was its popular or >democratic character, based as it was on the local language of the people. Was the language of the common Tamil laborer the same as the language of the elite? Was the common Tamil familiar with the TolkAppiyam or the intricacies of Tamil grammar? Could he understand the subtler use of the language by Sangham poets? Sanskrit is the product of a higher level of linguistic sophistication onan existing language and even then it is not totally divorced from its parent. The difficulty of the common man understanding Sanskrit is probably only as great as the common Tamil understanding the higher levels of sophisticated Tamil literature. If the difference in the former is greater, it is only because of a higher level of linguistic sophistication. >Literacy is not merely the acquisition of reading and writing skills. To be >meaningful and creative, literacy has to be based on one's own mother >tongue. Why is this so? Is Salman Rushdie not creative or meaningful? Shankara's mother tongue was probably MalayAlam. Did that in anyway hamper his creativity when writing in Sanskrit? The same could be said for scores ofauthors who wrote in Sanskrit. >Tamil remained the language of administration, of learning and instruction, >and of public discourse throughout the Tamil country...That is, while the >Brahmi script was borrowed, the Prakrit language was not allowed to be >imposed along with it from outside. Am I mistaken in believing that the Pallavas at one point in time, had Sanskrit as their court language? Am I mistaken in that many of the bhakti saints themselves were familiar with Sanskrit? >The universalist ideals of Tamil society were not based on such an >unrealistic view of life. They were grounded in a very pragmatic attitude. >(see puRam 189). Is it reasonable to gauge the ideals of a culture from a single work of poetry? For all you know it might reflect only the ideals of the poet(s), while the society atlarge was oblivious of it. For example, if somebody say 1000 years from now got a copy of the Communist Manifesto, would it be right for him to presume that there existed an egalitarian society in our times? Or does Mahatma Gandhi's works prove that the whole of India practiced ahimsa during his times. To cite an example in this context itself - are the ideals of Thiruvalluvar or the Sangham poets reflected in the world view of the Maravars with their "VeecharuvAl" tendencies? But even here Marx and Gandhi being social reformers had huge followings which no poet in human history has ever enjoyed. Poets are by nature, dreamers and idealists and it would be a big mistake to assume that their views reflect the views of the society that they lived in. Why is there this great effort to promote the view that early Tamil society was "secular", "democratic" etc? The existence of the Tamil caste system, the fanatic intolerance of the Shaivites and Vaishnavites (brahmins too were part of this) are themselves proof that dogma and prejudice was as much a part of the Tamil society, as any other Indian society. >Thus, Classical Tamil culture was different from the Indian culture as it >is usually understood. This remains a mere assertion unless until it can be backed by concrete evidence. All this is only a criticism of "arguments motivated by linguistic and racial chauvinism" and should not be interpreted as hatred of Tamil or the Tamil people. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT Wed Aug 23 12:16:36 2000 From: pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT (Alberto Pelissero) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 00 13:16:36 +0100 Subject: request for out of print, even used books Message-ID: <161227061103.23782.2730374481583741707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know if and where could I find three titles now out of print? The books are: Kuntaka,Vakroktijivita,Mukhyopadhyay, Calcutta 1961 (Skt. text, I presume) -------------do-------, Karnataka Uni.,Dharwad 1977 (English translation, I presume) B.K. Matilal, Logical Illumination of Indian Mysticism,Oxford 1987 Thank in advance for any suggestion. Alberto Pelissero via Belvedere 51 10028 Trofarello (TO) I T A L Y tel. +39-11-670.3757 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) fax +39-11-670.3604 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) From dolenev at MAIL.RU Wed Aug 23 11:56:32 2000 From: dolenev at MAIL.RU (Dmitry Olenev) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 00 15:56:32 +0400 Subject: Q: new book on Atisha's works Message-ID: <161227061105.23782.6772680991507170557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, recently I heard about a new book on Atisha published by Motilal Banarsidass and I'd like to know which treatises of this buddhist teacher are translated in it. Here is its title: The Complete Works of Atisa : (The Lamp for the Path, The Commentary, together with the Newly translated Twenty-Five Key Texts)((Tibetan and English)) Richard Sherburne (Tr.), Dalai Lama (Foreword) Many thanks in advance! Yours sincerely, Dmitry Olenev From sivabgs at YAHOO.COM Wed Aug 23 18:00:36 2000 From: sivabgs at YAHOO.COM (SUBSCRIBE INDOLOGY ganapathi) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 00 19:00:36 +0100 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061107.23782.16776394433367084986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 03:47:43 GMT, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >As an inscription dated 1821 is found in Kumbhakonam, it stands to reason >that there must have been a matha there for a few decades before that date. Dear Shri Vidya, There are two inscriptions in the aadhi Kumbheswarar Temple Kumbhakonam. The first one is found near the Dhwjasthambham which states "...In the Saka year 1722 (1800AD)Roudhri Varusham SRI AACHARYA SWAMIBHI: NIRMATHA: SRI KAANCHI KAMAKOTI PEETABHISHIKDA SRI MAHAA DEVENDRA YATHI UBHAYAM". A Telugu version of this inscription is also found in the northern side of the Sthambham. The other one(Saka 1722)is found in the southern side of the Somaaskandha shrine of the Kumbheswaran temple. This inscription says " Kumbheswara Swamy Somaaskandha moorthikku Garbhagruham,Ardhamantapam moodunnu SRI KANCHI KAMAKOTI PEETADHIPATHI CHANDRAMOULEESWARA DASABHOOTHA SRI MAHA DEVENDRA YATHI DHARMAM" Hence Vidya's assumption that there must have been a matha prior to 1821 is correct.The Kanchi Peetadhiapthis had been at Kumbhakonam during this period which fact is confirmed by these two 1800 AD Kumbhakonam inscriptions. could you please share >with us the following information? > >>?..H.H.Sankarachary was paid annually large sums of money for the conduct >>of worship of Chandramouleeswar and of the Vyasa Pooja in the solar > >The given name of this ascetic? "Sankaracharya" is too generic a term for >this place and time. And the place associated with this Sankaracharya - >Kumbhakonam or Tiruvidaimarudur or Kanchipuram? These records are related to the grants which had been given to the kanchi Kamkoti peetadhipathi Shankaracharya Swamy. While some records give the narration for the expenditure incurred for the occasion.. the other give detailed accounts of the events. The Vyasa pooja had been performed in various places by the then Peetadhipathis. According to these records,it was a custom that a representative of the King to participate with special vasthram and other offerings during such occasions.He was known as "Madhyasthar" in the manuscripts. Information with regard to the various vyasa poojas performed by the Peetadhipathis at Jambhukeswaram, Kumbhakonam,Tiruvarur and other places are found in these documents. Do the manuscripts refer to >the head of a Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, or just of a Matham in Kumbhakonam? >Polakam Rama Sastri's book on the lineage constantly refers to it as a >"Sarada Matha" - is such a term found in these manuscripts? As already said the manusripts refer the Swamiji as the Kanchi Kamakoti Shankaracharya at Kumbhakonam. Please note that when the Swamiji was in other places the documents refer him only as the Kanchi Kamakoti Shankaracharya camping at... (place).They don't mention any thing like "...... of Kumbhakonam". I have not read this book. >>02.Doc. Nos.1-312,4-30,5-6,9-37 etc., mention about the kanakabhishekams >>performed by the tanjore King to the Shankaracharyas of Kanchi between >>1801-1850AD. > >Names again, of the Sankaracharya(s) and of the king(s)? As you may be >aware, there were at least two branches of the Tanjavur Maratha family, >until 1798. In 1799, after Serfoji ascended to the throne, the British took >over in all but name. Also, places - Kumbhakonam or Tiruvidaimarudur or >Kanchipuram? During 1801, Serfoji II had performed Kanakaabhishekam to Mahadevendra Saraswathi IV at Kumbhakonam. His son SivajiII performed Kanakabhishekam to Chandrasekharendra saraswathi V during 1833,1842 and 1850 at Kumbhakonam and Tanjore.We could not find any record during Amarsingh's period. >There are two questions of dates - >1. Pratapasimha ousted the legitimate king, Shahuji, only in 1749. A date of 1739 is too early for him, as Shahuji's mother was regent from 1737 to 1740,and Shahuji ruled 1740 - 1749. Is the above material a primary quotation from the mss, or is it the author's/editor's reconstruction of history? If the latter, he has made a mistake. If the former, there is room for doubt. Sorry Vidya. You are wrong. Ekoji II @ Bhava Saheb died in the year 1736AD. His father Thukkoji also died in the same year.Then one sujan Bhai ascended to the Tanjore throne.She was succeded by King Prathapa simha in 1739 AD (Saka 1661). This information is confirmed by the Bhonsle vamsa Charithram and other books. Pl. give the ref./nature of the primary source on which you rely upon. Thanks BGS >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Aug 23 18:28:27 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 00 19:28:27 +0100 Subject: author's data In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061109.23782.11271823600339129306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Valerie J Roebuck wrote: > Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote > > > Is Mildred Archer, w/o W.G.Archer retired? > > Yes, I was told by the Victoria and Albert Museum staff a couple of years > ago that she had retired. Mildred Archer's successor as keeper of paintings and drawings at the India Office (now Oriental and India Office Collections, BL) is Jeremiah Losty, author of the important The Art of the Book in India and other works. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 23 22:33:58 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 00 22:33:58 +0000 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061111.23782.9027879177847295509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Sorry Vidya. You are wrong. Ekoji II @ Bhava Saheb died in the year 1736AD. >His father Thukkoji also died in the same year.Then one sujan Bhai ascended >to the Tanjore throne.She was succeded by King Prathapa simha in 1739 AD >(Saka 1661). This information is confirmed by the Bhonsle vamsa Charithram Sujan Bai, Ekoji's wife, was Shahuji's mother. She was appointed regent till he attained majority. Technically, Shahuji was king until the year 1749, when Pratapasimha, another son of Ekoji, ousted him. Pratapasimha was much older than Shahuji, and could have directly become king in 1736 itself, without the intervening regency of the queen. The only problem - he was an illegitimate son of Ekoji, or at least, he was originally debarred from the succession. The Bhonsale Vamsa Charitram glosses over these events, as it was written during the rule of Serfoji (?), a descendant of Pratapasimha. See R. Sewell's "A Sketch of the Dynasties of Southern India" for details. I remember having read about this conflict in succession elsewhere too, but can't place the exact source right now. Some book on Maratha history, which gave a little information on the Tanjavur branch of the family. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Aug 24 05:16:34 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 00 01:16:34 -0400 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061113.23782.7059773877323030005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/23/2000 1:01:50 PM Central Daylight Time, sivabgs at YAHOO.COM writes: > During 1801, Serfoji II had performed Kanakaabhishekam to Mahadevendra > Saraswathi IV at Kumbhakonam. His son SivajiII performed Kanakabhishekam to > Chandrasekharendra saraswathi V during 1833,1842 and 1850 at Kumbhakonam > and Tanjore.We could not find any record during Amarsingh's period. Does this mean that from Pratapasimha onwards Sankaracharya of Kanchi/Kumbhakonam was the spiritual guru of the Maratha rulers of Tanjore? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 24 06:14:31 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 00 06:14:31 +0000 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061115.23782.5970093387871335964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> P Chandrasekaran writes : >Reminds me of a very famous Tamil aphorism: >"eGkappan2 kutirukkuL illai!" >["My dad is not [hiding] in the barn!" - uttered by the bankrupt son of a >bankrupt person avoiding creditors] Actually this reminds me of an incident in the political scene in TamilNadu a few months back when Karunanidhi was criticized as being supportive of the RSS. The CM inturn said that there was nothing wrong with the RSS and it was only a social organization like the DK! Cho Ramaswamy was quick to note in irony in a cartoon on the front cover of the magazine Thuglak, where Veeramani (the head honcho of DK) is shown criticizing Karunanidhi for the equation saying : "Why, did they (the RSS) throw slippers at the idols of Gods? Did they beat up poor brahmin priests? Did they demand secession from the Indian union? Did they destroy public property in the name of anti-Hindi agitation? ... ". ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 24 10:58:37 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 00 06:58:37 -0400 Subject: shivaratri Message-ID: <161227061119.23782.17079356250849185508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I need the dates (western calendar) for Shivaratri for the years 2001 and 2002 for the location of New York (and unfortunately I don't have a Panchang that goes that far). Could any of the list members supply me this as I need it in the next day or two. Also my understanding is that the rule for the date is that it is that day on which midnight occurs on the 14 tithi in the dark half of mAgha. What is the rule if: a) It is a short tithi and the entire tithi falls between two midnights. b) It is a long tithi and two midnights occur on the tithi. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Aug 24 08:32:17 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 00 09:32:17 +0100 Subject: Job offer: Language Specialist Urdu (fwd) Message-ID: <161227061117.23782.13121409526789961858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:56:11 +0200 From: Sylvia.Joos at lhs.be Subject: Re: Job offer: Language Specialist Urdu Lernout & Hauspie Speech Products (L&H) is a global leader in advanced speech and language solutions for computers, cars, telecommunications, embedded products, consumer goods and the internet. The company makes the speech user interface (SUI), the keystone of simple, convenient interaction between humans and technology, and uses advanced translation technology to break down cultural barriers. The L&H team counts more than 5000 people worldwide. The headquarters are located in Ieper, Belgium. For the development of Urdu language and speech technology, Lernout & Hauspie is currently looking for: Urdu Language Specialists for the Corporate R&D Division located in Ieper (Belgium) Function: -You will work within a multi-disciplinary team of linguists, engineers and programmers on the development of software systems in the field of Speech, Artificial Intelligence and Language. -In the startup phase, your tasks will typically include: basic phonetic and language study in view of technology development and assessment of third party providers of data and/or technology. -You will be involved in all aspects of the development life cycle and focus on system specification and design, implementation of linguistic rule sets, creation of acoustic and lexical databases, grapheme to phoneme conversion, prosodic analysis, software testing and quality control, preparation of documentation. -Training is given both on-the-job and through lectures and technical documentation. Dedicated development environments are provided which allow language specialists to focus on their content: formalizing linguistic knowledge. -You will report to the group or project manager. Profile: -university degree in philology or linguistics, or equivalent; -(near) native Urdu speaker with a conversational level of English; -solid grounding in linguistic theory; -good knowledge of and/or experience in one or more of the following areas: speech processing, natural language processing (NLP), computational linguistics, programming, other languages; -ability to work in a team and independently; If you are interested in this job opportunity and you believe to fulfil the required profile, we have to meet each other. Please send your detailed resume to: Lernout & Hauspie Speech Products Personnel Department Attn. Pierre Eggermont Flanders Language Valley, 50 B-8900 Ieper BELGIUM To learn more about Lernout & Hauspie and its products, visit our homepage . You may also want to send an e-mail to to obtain a list of all current job openings at L&H. SYLVIA JOOS Language Group Manager Linguistic Engineering Division Lernout & Hauspie Speech Products nv Phone +32 57 22 8888 Flanders Language Valley, 50 Fax +32 57 20 8489 B-8900 Ieper, Belgium Email sylvia.joos at lhs.be From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 24 14:17:30 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 00 14:17:30 +0000 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061121.23782.17967710289352311600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Nanda Chandran's email: >>S Palaniappan writes : >>Literacy is not merely the acquisition of reading and writing >>skills. To be meaningful and creative, literacy has to be based >>on one's own mother tongue. [...] >>Tamil remained the language of administration, of learning and >>instruction, and of public discourse throughout the Tamil >>country...That is, while the Brahmi script was borrowed, the >>Prakrit language was not allowed to be imposed NC>Am I mistaken in believing that the Pallavas at one point in time, NC>had Sanskrit as their court language? Am I mistaken in that many NC>of the bhakti saints themselves were familiar with Sanskrit? Pl. note these are the words of Iravatham Mahadevan, a reputed scholar on early Tamil and Indian epigraphy. The reference given is Studies in History, 11, 2, n.s., 1995, p.182-5, published from N. Delhi. What you are talking is about the post-sangam era. Pallavan rule marks the definite break with the Classical Tamil sangam period, and the nascent feudal society with land-owning castes being formed. Iravatham and Palaniappan discuss an earlier period, and point out the democracy and 'kuTavOlai' voting prevalent in the CT era which was followed by the Cholan inscription at uttaramErUr dated 1020 CE. Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 24 18:31:13 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 00 18:31:13 +0000 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061125.23782.2283704341577802781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >nOw, Sri. Vidya Sankar has raised a point about the date Raja Prathapa >Simhan's Pattabhisekam. > >How ever, I am yet receive any reponse from him/other members regarding the >two inscriptions and other Modi Documents cited as the evidences to I didn't realize I was expected to respond to the fact that some evidence is available from the early 19th century. Not having seen the primary sources myself, I doubt if I can make any valid comment about these inscriptions and manuscripts. In any case, the problematic questions have to do with an earlier period, e.g. the dates of Paramasivendra Sarasvati, Bodhendra Sarasvati and Sadasiva Brahmendra. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From sivabgs at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 24 17:34:26 2000 From: sivabgs at YAHOO.COM (SUBSCRIBE INDOLOGY ganapathi) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 00 18:34:26 +0100 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061123.23782.4478475674244612978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:16:34 EDT, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >In a message dated 8/23/2000 1:01:50 PM Central Daylight Time, >sivabgs at YAHOO.COM writes: > >> During 1801, Serfoji II had performed Kanakaabhishekam to Mahadevendra >> Saraswathi IV at Kumbhakonam. His son SivajiII performed Kanakabhishekam to >> Chandrasekharendra saraswathi V during 1833,1842 and 1850 at Kumbhakonam >> and Tanjore.We could not find any record during Amarsingh's period. > >Does this mean that from Pratapasimha onwards Sankaracharya of >Kanchi/Kumbhakonam was the spiritual guru of the Maratha rulers of Tanjore? >Thanks in advance. Dear palaniappan, This matter may be taken up seperately.. b'se We may have to discuss about some other evidences in connection with some of the earlier maratha kings. nOw, Sri. Vidya Sankar has raised a point about the date Raja Prathapa Simhan's Pattabhisekam. How ever, I am yet receive any reponse from him/other members regarding the two inscriptions and other Modi Documents cited as the evidences to confirm the existence of kanchi kamakoti Shankara Mutt at Kumbhakonam. Thanks BGS > >Regards >S. Palaniappan From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Aug 25 14:05:00 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 00 07:05:00 -0700 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061131.23782.10839044551935768889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Palaniappan wrote: <<< This is not widely known. But, indeed, the kuTavOlai process was in existence in CT times also. Consider the following lines of akanAn2URu 77:7-11. kayiRu piNi kuzici Olai koNmAr poRi kaNTu azikkum AvaNa mAkkaLin2 uyir tiRam peyara nal amar kaTanta taRukaNALar kuTar tarIi teRuvara ce cevi eruvai ajncuvara ikukkum This is a love poem of the desolate pAlai landscape. The theme deals with the hero thinking about a journey through a harsh land. The description of the land involves vultures and dead warriors. The vultures moving aside the armor/clothes covering dead warriors' bodies, tearing into the bodies and pulling out the entrails is compared to the officials removing the seals of pots that had been bound by ropes and reaching into the pots and removing the palm leaves. Even M.G.S. Narayanan (Foundations of South Indian Society and Culture, 1994, p. 109) says of the CT times that "it may be inferred that people drawn from different ethnic and professional groups were being transformed into land-owning cultivators in course of time." >>> The Indus valley civilization was a sprawling bronze age civilization without temples, palaces, royal tombs, monumental art/architecture. Scholars have demonstarted the absence of Aryan Vedic religion in the IVC archaeological finds. Given that Classical Tamil poetry gives a rare glimpse into an ancient India where the Brahminical varNa hierarchy has not been established, and folks from all walks of life participate in literacy production, will it be useful to model the ivc life more in terms of the CT "tiNai"-type ideals, rather than the Aryan vertical hierarchy? Best wishes, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 25 09:21:58 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 00 09:21:58 +0000 Subject: Democracy in old India Message-ID: <161227061130.23782.15283293669208220454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >What you are talking is about the post-sangam era. Pallavan rule >marks the definite break with the Classical Tamil sangam period, >and the nascent feudal society with land-owning castes being formed. Yes, I noticed. But the tone of the argument out here seems to be that at one point in time Tamilagam was democratic and "secular" (whatever this word might mean!) and Tamils were fiercely patriotic about their language and protected it from Sanskritic influence. And it is later that the evil influence of the Brahmanical system corrupted Tamil values. If I remember right KA Nilakanta Shastri quotes from the Sangam texts to prove the existence of the Tamil caste system - so the "fuedal" system is foreign to Tamil culture is not too convincing. If the Tamil caste system had its origins in its brahmanical counterpart, why was the traditional - priest, warrior, merchant, servant - formula not followed? Why is a farmer (VellALar) superior to a warrior (maravar)? And if Sangam poets prove their patriotism to Tamil by protecting it from the influence of Sanskrit, so are the bhakti poets to be taken as less patriotic, since they accepted Sanskrit? It would be more logical to think that Tamil wise men questioned Brahmin/Sanskrit notions of supremacy at the early stages. But with the passage of time both the streams reconciled and accepted each other, with brahmins composing works in Tamil and Tamil scholars appreciating and endorsing the religious literature in Sanskrit. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From sivabgs at YAHOO.COM Fri Aug 25 09:20:46 2000 From: sivabgs at YAHOO.COM (SUBSCRIBE INDOLOGY ganapathi) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 00 10:20:46 +0100 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061128.23782.1996843367093493635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:33:58 GMT, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >Sujan Bai, Ekoji's wife, was Shahuji's mother. She was appointed regent till>he attained majority. Technically, Shahuji was king until the year 1749,>when Pratapasimha, another son of Ekoji, ousted him. Pratapasimha was much>older than Shahuji, and could have directly become king in 1736 itself, >without the intervening regency of the queen. The only problem - he was an >illegitimate son of Ekoji, or at least, he was originally debarred from the >succession. The Bhonsale Vamsa Charitram glosses over these events, as it >was written during the rule of Serfoji (?), a descendant of Pratapasimha. > >See R. Sewell's "A Sketch of the Dynasties of Southern India" for details. I >remember having read about this conflict in succession elsewhere too, but >can't place the exact source right now. Some book on Maratha history, which >gave a little information on the Tanjavur branch of the family. King Serfoji I, had no issues. Savayee Sahooji who was the son of a maid servant was declared as the son of Serfoji I & his wife Aburooba Bayee. However this was known subsequently and Thukoji (Brother of Serfoji) became the King. After Thukoji, his Son EkojiII came to power. When he died in 1736AD, his wife succeeded him. During this time one Kattu Raja, claimed himself as the erstwhile Shahuji, removed Sujan Bayee and userped the power.After realising their mistake, the sardars made Prathapa Simhan as the King of Thanjavur in the year 1739AD. This version of the Maratha history is found almost in all the books . The version of R.Sewell is not correct. It is a well established fact that raja Prathapa Simha was the son of King Thukoji . His mother belonged to a Marathi Royal clan. Thukoji married her by performing Kathi Kalyaanam, which was custom practised by the Kshathriyas.When the katturaja was thrown out of power, Prathapa Simhan was the only legitimate heir born to a Marathi lady. This was clearly mentioned in the Bhonsle Vamsa Charithram and other manuscripts. All these information could be verified from the arguments of Advocate Norton in the case of Kamakshi Ambha Bayee Saheb before the Madras Court during 1857. Since Sri. Vidya Sankar feels that the material (Bhonsle Charithram), on which I rely upon glosses over some events as it was written during the period of Serfoji II, a descendent of Prathapa Simhan I must place further evidence to support my statements.. 01. Doc. No.3-144, 145 (1739 AD), 5-12 (1742 AD), 3-178 (1742AD), 3-165 (1745 AD) contain information about the grants given by King Prathapa Simhan (in his capacity as the King Of Tanjore). 02.Doc.No. 1-118 & 119 : The famous Thirvidai Maradhur Ther (Temple Car) was repaired with the help of Raja Prathapa Simhan during this period. 03. Another 10 documents are related to the Royal correspondence between the Thanjavur Marathas and French in Pondicherry.These are very important documents because the Karaikal region was under the control of the Marathas was given to the French under a Mortgage Deed for getting a loan from them.About 60 villages were handed over to them in lieu of the loan. You can also refer the famous Anandharangam Pillai?s Diary for further study. The first Deed was executed on 07.10.1739. King Prathapa Simhan and the then Governor of Pondy Mussae Dumas were the parties to this agreement. Hence Sri VidyaSankar?s contentions ( that King Prathapa Simha was an illegitimate son of Ekoji, Shahji was the son of Sujan Bhayee, Shuji ruled up to 1749 AD etc.,) may not be accepted. BGS From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Aug 25 15:10:57 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 00 11:10:57 -0400 Subject: Position: Theravada Buddhism, University of Wisconsin, Madison Message-ID: <161227061133.23782.7663200565123452331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [forwarded from: H-ASIA August 24, 2000] Position: Theravada Buddhism, University of Wisconsin, Madison ************************************************************************ From: Dickson Sharon Please post and forward as appropriate: University of Wisconsin-Madison Position in Theravada Buddhism The Department of Languages and Cultures of Asia and the Religious Studies Program at the University of Wisconsin-Madison seek a scholar of Theravada Buddhism, rank open. Applicants should be familiar with South and Southeast Asian expressions of Theravada teaching and practice, although they will likely specialize in one region. They should control Pali language and literature, and the modern language of at least one contemporary Theravada society. Candidates should be prepared to cover religious doctrine and practice as well as their intersection with contemporary literature and society. The tenure home will be 100% in LCA but the candidate will teach courses cross listed in Religious Studies and participate actively in the Religious Studies Program. Salary competitive. Starting date: 8/27/01. Application deadline: Dec. 1st, 2000. Send application letter, CV, three letters of recommendation, and writing sample (minimum length: article or dissertation/book chapter) to: Chair, Search Committee in Theravada Buddhism, Department of Languages and Cultures of Asia, UW-Madison, 1240 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Drive, Madison, WI 53706. Unless confidentiality is requested in writing, information regarding applicants must be released upon request. Finalists cannot be guaranteed confidentiality. AA/EOE. Applications from women and minorities encouraged. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Aug 25 21:40:44 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 00 17:40:44 -0400 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061137.23782.3221688699958246647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/22/00 10:48:47 PM Central Daylight Time, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: << . Pratapasimha ousted the legitimate king, Shahuji, only in 1749. A date of 1739 is too early for him, as Shahuji's mother was regent from 1737 to 1740, and Shahuji ruled 1740 - 1749. >> "Dupleix and Clive" by Henry Dodwell (1962 reprint of 1920 publication) gives the following information (p. 42-44). "Towards the end of 1748, Shahji, who had been driven from the throne of Tanjore in 1739, applied to the English for help to recover the kingdom, asserting that he would find plenty of support once he entered Tanjore with an English force. He had already made one or two attempts to engaage the French in his favour,1 but at that time Dupleix had both the English war and Chanda Sahib's intrigue on his hands; he therefore refused. The English, however, free from engagements. They had just received news that peace was being made in Europe. They decided therefore to help Shahji with a body of men on condition of a grant of Devikottai, a small fort at the mouth of the Coleroon, and the reimbursement of their expenses.2... Of the expedition itself little need be said. It was nearly overwhelmed by a cyclone before it reached the Coleroon; not a soul in Tanjore was prepared to support Shahji; after an inglorious appearance before Devikottai and a still more inglorious retreat, a second expedition was dispatched by sea. This was commanded by Lawrence. He took Devikottai easily enough; and when Pratap Singh, the actual Raja of Tanjore, offered terms, they were accepted, and Shahji was pensioned off into obscurity from which he should never have emerged." Footnote 1. Leriche to Dupleix, april 26 and October 29, 1747 (P. R., No.83); Diary of Ananda Ranga Pillai, vol. iv. pp. 350 and 387, etc. Footnote 2. Country Correspondence, 1748, p. 83; Fort. St. David Cons., April 10, 1749. Regards S. Palaniappan From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 25 20:41:52 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 00 20:41:52 +0000 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061135.23782.5877336942684546554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for sharing further details on a confused period of south Indian history. >by performing Kathi Kalyaanam, which was custom practised by the >Kshathriyas.When the katturaja was thrown out of power, Prathapa What variety of marriage is this? Meaning, can it be related to any of the standard eight forms of marriage acknowledged in the old texts? Please note that everywhere in the world, "official histories" of a royal dynasty always try to legitimate the current ruler and his lineage, at the expense of other related people with varying claims to the throne. English Tudor history is a classic example. Such textual accounts need to be studied critically, along with other independent sources. Sewell seems to have relied solely on British East India Company documents, but the discrepancy in dates indicates that the dispute was not unambiguously settled for some time. As for the 1857 document, it is the advocate's job to present a one-sided picture, favorable to his client. That picture may or may not be valid from a neutral perspective. You might also want to take into account that the Marathas in Maharashtra did not have a Kshatriya status conferred upon them without a murmur. Shivaji was crowned as a Chattrapati only towards the end of his rule, just about half a century before these events in Tanjavur. In the 18th century, the Marathas were still relative newcomers to the Tamil south. Moreover, Tanjavur had been originally given to them as a Jagir, by the Adilshahi Sultan of Bijapur. The documents and publications that you have been citing might shed some light on how the other branch of the Marathas was received by the predominantly Tamil and Telugu population of Tanjavur. >Since Sri. Vidya Sankar feels that the material (Bhonsle Charithram), on >which I rely upon glosses over some events as it was written during the >period of Serfoji II, a descendent of Prathapa Simhan I must place further >evidence to support my statements.. With all due respect, you could have made your point more effectively, a couple of days ago, by quoting all these pieces of evidence, instead of releasing them in bits and pieces. I hope you don't view this exchange simply as a means to proclaim, "Vidyasankar is wrong." Tanjavur Maratha history is still a rather obscure thing, and "prior disclosure" might help us all develop a better idea of those events. Could you also share with us the publication details of your sources? I am aware only of R. S. Shelvankar's 1933 book on the Modi manuscripts at the Tanjavur Saraswati Mahal Library. You seem to be quoting from more recent publications. Finally, all of the above, no matter how interesting on its own terms, is still only peripherally related to the Sankaracharyas at Kumbhakonam or Kanchipuram. What would be interesting and also more pertinent, with respect to the subject matter of this thread, would be to get the earliest attested dates of specific persons, and to independently reconstruct a lineage of the Mathadhipatis from the evidence of these documents. This can then be compared with the officially reported lineage of the Matha. The two may not exactly match, but my expectation is that they would not be significantly different either. I also expect that the primary documents would not themselves attach a Roman numeral suffix to names that get frequently repeated, like Mahadevendra Sarasvati and Candrasekharendra Sarasvati. It is the researcher's job to draw up the proper chronology. You could make a significant contribution towards an objective and dispassionate understanding of these issues, and I, for one, would be interested in the details. Such an exercise has already been done with respect to the Sringeri list, in the books by A. K. Shastry (Karnataka University, Dharwad) and Yoshitsugu Sawai (Sammlung de Nobili, Vienna). None of the other Sankaracharya institutions have been similarly studied. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ps. My name, Vidyasankar, is one word, not "Vidya Sankar". Like Hariharan, or Lakshminarayan, or Gaurisankar. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 25 22:35:53 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 00 22:35:53 +0000 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061139.23782.3196549312007211736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Shahji was pensioned off into obscurity from which he should never have >emerged." > Seems to confirm my impression that Sewell's information is based only on the Honorable Company's documents from south India. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Aug 26 12:52:35 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 00 13:52:35 +0100 Subject: Inputting Sanskrit Dictionary(Bon-wa Daijiten) Message-ID: <161227061143.23782.4146178828427035946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jaekwan Shim wrote: I almost finished the inputting of the Sanskrit-Chinese(Japanese) Dictionary(Kan-yaku Taisho Bon-wa Daijiten by Unrai Wogiwara and Naoshiro Tsuji) in computer.(100,198 line / 2,947page-letter size / 2.2Mbite). ********* This sounds a very useful and worthwhile project. However there is one big problem. As far as I know the Bon-Wa Jiten is still copyrighted. As I understand the situation, unless you have explicit permission from the publishers, it will be illegal under international copyright law to publish this electronically -- I assume Korea is a signatory to this law. You could be liable to claims of very substantial damages. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From hart at POLBOX.COM Sat Aug 26 15:06:10 2000 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 00 17:06:10 +0200 Subject: The "Net of Indra" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061148.23782.1668544908666824695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A short remark and a question concerning the "Net of Indra". IndrajAla texts group some static aspects of reality (like directions, seasons, tithis, names of divinities, numbers, colors, animals, etc.) around the aggregate of the "Six [magic] Acts" (SaTkarmANi) - zAntikaraNa (pacifying), vazIkaraNa (subjugating), stambhana (stopping), vidveSaNa (exciting enmity), uccATana (eradicating), mAraNa (killing). The "Six Acts" can thus be seen as the central nodes of the "Net of Indra"; all other elements of the "Net" are not independent and seem to function only as symbolic representations of the "Six Acts". Graphically, one is tempted to imagine a flower of six petals, the tip of each petal surrounded by its own, specific constellation of signs (magical equivalences, "mAraNa" = black = buffalo, etc.). But it is also possible to see in the "Six Acts" a hierarchically arranged sequence, a kind of cyclical strategy, in which every (black) "mAraNa" is followed by a new (white) "zAntikaraNa", every unsuccessful (white) "zAntikaraNa" by a (red) "vazIkaraNa", every unsuccessful (red) "vazIkaraNa" by a (yellow) "stambhana" - and so on. Sign systems of this kind used to be used in attempts to manipulate and transform reality. Also - to read intentions of other manipulators and neutralize in advance their harmful effects. Is the "Net of Indra" enumerated anywhere among the skills employed in the art of politics? With regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland P.S. Is there an English translation of Hermann Oldenberg's "Die Weltanschauung der Brahmanatexte" (Gottingen 1919)? Any recent work on the "Net of Indra"? A.K. From shimj at USA.NET Sat Aug 26 19:32:58 2000 From: shimj at USA.NET (JAEKWAN SHIM) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 00 19:32:58 +0000 Subject: Inputting Sanskrit Dictionary(Bon-wa Daijiten) Message-ID: <161227061141.23782.13810143856302952148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of list, I almost finished the inputting of the Sanskrit-Chinese(Japanese) Dictionary(Kan-yaku Taisho Bon-wa Daijiten by Unrai Wogiwara and Naoshiro Tsuji) in computer.(100,198 line / 2,947page-letter size / 2.2Mbite) Because of inputting trouble and inconvenience, I omitted Japanese, but rearrange it, with its page, into Sanskrit-Chinese style like Hirakawa's Dictionary. I'am converting the words(having diacritics for Korean use) into Harvard-Tyoto system. But, I have no idea how to upload the text with Chinese characters on web site, and don't know much about the copyright for this case. Anybody have good idea or know the websites to handle this? Jaekwan Shim Dept. of Philosophy Kangnung National University South Korea. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From sivabgs at YAHOO.COM Sun Aug 27 14:05:36 2000 From: sivabgs at YAHOO.COM (SUBSCRIBE INDOLOGY ganapathi) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 00 15:05:36 +0100 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061152.23782.2111602974355617621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 20:41:52 GMT, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >With all due respect, you could have made your point more effectively, a >couple of days ago, by quoting all these pieces of evidence, instead of >releasing them in bits and pieces. I hope you don't view this exchange >simply as a means to proclaim, "Vidyasankar is wrong." Tanjavur Maratha >history is still a rather obscure thing, and "prior disclosure" might help >us all develop a better idea of those events. It was not intentional.I couldn't quote all the data because of their nature and volume.I will try to provide complete ref. details hereafter.. >Could you also share with us the publication details of your sources? I am >aware only of R. S. Shelvankar's 1933 book on the Modi manuscripts at the >Tanjavur Saraswati Mahal Library. You seem to be quoting from more recent >publications. I rely upon the books published by the Tamil University and Saraswathi Mahaal Library, Tanjore. The Annual nUmbers of The Saraswathi Mahaal Library are also referred often. My conclusion is that The kanchi Kamakoti Mutt had come to Kumbhakonam during the reign of Prathapa Simhan. The modi manuscripts and other inscriptions (during the 18th and 19th Centuries)do refer the institution only as Kanchi Kamakoti Shankara mutt and the Peetadhipathi as The shankaracharya of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam. Thanks BGS From hyodo at OTANI.AC.JP Sun Aug 27 12:31:54 2000 From: hyodo at OTANI.AC.JP (HYODO, Kazuo) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 00 21:31:54 +0900 Subject: Announcement of Tibetan Language Kit for Mac Message-ID: <161227061150.23782.5195136566599364563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, An upgraded version of the Tibetan Language Kit for Macintosh (TLK) is now being distributed by Otani University Shin Buddhist Comprehensive Research Institute, Kyoto, Japan. The TLK is a "plug-in" for your Macintosh computer running on MacOS versions 7.6 or later. It provides the fonts, keyboard layouts, and script information needed to enter and display and print Tibetan text. With the TLK, you can enter Tibetan text in word processors, databases, and other Macintosh software that handles multi-script text. The TLK is distributed as a free ware. More information can be gained at the TLK site. http://www.otani.ac.jp/cri/TLK The TLK can be downloaded at the same site. Thank you. Kazuo Hyodo Otani University Kyoto, Japan From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Aug 27 23:38:57 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 00 23:38:57 +0000 Subject: Kanchi Shankara Mutt Message-ID: <161227061153.23782.9134805689828492973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I rely upon the books published by the Tamil University and Saraswathi >Mahaal Library, Tanjore. The Annual nUmbers of The Saraswathi Mahaal >Library are also referred often. Dear sir, One is still in the dark, with respect to what these publications are. Since others cannot be expected to know the details of the books you have, the commonly accepted practice is to give the following - Author's name (or editor's name), title of the book, year of publication, place of publication, publisher's name. Page numbers may be given for specific quotations. If you are referring to a journal that is published periodically, the year, publisher's name, page numbers, title of the particular article you quote and its author - these pieces of information are necessary. >My conclusion is that The kanchi Kamakoti Mutt had come to Kumbhakonam >during the reign of Prathapa Simhan. The modi manuscripts and other >inscriptions (during the 18th and 19th Centuries)do refer the institution >only as Kanchi Kamakoti Shankara mutt and the Peetadhipathi as The >shankaracharya of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam. That there was a Sankaracarya associated with Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham in the 19th century does not require much proof. Around the 1700's is the crucial time period for which one needs information. As far as one can make out from your mails, the Modi documents do not cover this. Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ Mon Aug 28 09:38:57 2000 From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 00 09:38:57 +0000 Subject: yogadIpikA In-Reply-To: <20000828055604.20660.qmail@nw178.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227061159.23782.5828951922112702710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> D. G. White (The Alchemical Body, p. 140) writes: "Another vernacular work attributed to Gorakh, entitled the YogadIpikA, is written in the Old Kannada language. I have not consulted this work; however, a description of it leads me to believe that it is a south Indian version of the HaThayoga PradIpikA of SvAtmArAma, ..." Could anybody confirm / refute this assumption? Are there any other renderings/translations of the HYP into other Dravidian languages? Thanks -- Lubomir Ondracka ============================================= Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies Charles University Namesti Jana Palacha 2 116 38 Prague 1 Czech Republic --------------------------------------------- e-mail: ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz --------------------------------------------- phone: 00420-2-21619356 ============================================= From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Aug 28 14:29:00 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 00 10:29:00 -0400 Subject: The "Net of Indra" Message-ID: <161227061165.23782.5143041200779800991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> << Is there an English translation of Hermann Oldenberg's "Die Weltanschauung der Brahmanatexte" (Gottingen 1919)?>> I see none on the gigantic online union catalog OCLC (mostly North American libraries but expanding into Europe and Japan). Have you checked his Kleine Schriften (Wiesbaden: F. Steiner, 1967)? Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT Mon Aug 28 10:07:30 2000 From: pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT (Alberto Pelissero) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 00 11:07:30 +0100 Subject: Thanks for replies (was: request for out of print books) Message-ID: <161227061161.23782.17346505692012505201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Timothy C. Cahill, Timothy P. Lighthiser and Rosa Franco for their replies to my query. Alberto Pelissero via Belvedere 51 10028 Trofarello (TO) I T A L Y tel. +39-11-670.3757 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) fax +39-11-670.3604 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Mon Aug 28 05:39:30 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 00 11:09:30 +0530 Subject: History of Mughalstan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061155.23782.15403599043761494405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> History of Mughalstan History reveals that South Asia has consisted of several well-defined distinct ethnic core regions, each with its own language, script, culture and ethnicity. The core regions of Tamil Nadu, Gujarat and Maharashtra are noteable examples which have existed since the early centuries AD. As noted by Gandasa, South Asia is more like a continent than a monolithic nation, consisting of distinct nations. Perhaps one of the latest to evolve was the Muslim-dominated Indus-Ganges subregion; it is proposed that this subregion be called Mughalstan. Ever since Bhaktiyar Khilji conquered Bihar and Bengal, the Indus-Ganges valley appears to have formed one single distinct nation with its own language (Urdu), ethnic group (Mughals) and culture. For most of the Delhi Sultanate, Mughalstan was one united region, and the conquest of South India can be compared to the extension of the French Empire into Germany under Napoleon. Likewise, the core of the Indo-Tinurid Empire was Mughalstan, whilst other ethnic core regions were ruled as tributary states rather than as part of Mughalstan. Thus, from the Delhi Sultanate to the Indo-Timurieds, Mughalstan formed one nation. The distinct culture of the conquered regions appears to have been respected. Thus, a vibrant Dravidian civilization survived in the South even during Mughal rule. Samar Abbas 28th Aug. 2000 From GthomGt at CS.COM Mon Aug 28 15:38:26 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 00 11:38:26 -0400 Subject: The "Net of Indra" Message-ID: <161227061166.23782.10464451830136352825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/28/00 10:30:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athr at LOC.GOV writes: > << Is there an English translation of Hermann Oldenberg's "Die > Weltanschauung der Brahmanatexte" (Gottingen 1919)?>> > > > I see none on the gigantic online union catalog OCLC (mostly North > American libraries but expanding into Europe and Japan). > > Have you checked his Kleine Schriften (Wiesbaden: F. Steiner, 1967)? ***************** The full title is: *Vorwissenschaftliche Wissenschaft: Die Weltanschauung der BrAhamaNa-Texte* I don't think that it has been translated into English. George Thompson From shimj at USA.NET Mon Aug 28 14:56:04 2000 From: shimj at USA.NET (JAEKWAN SHIM) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 00 14:56:04 +0000 Subject: [Re: Inputting Sanskrit Dictionary(Bon-wa Daijiten)] Message-ID: <161227061157.23782.13448875731586451943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To say exactly, What I have done was based on the Bon-wa Daijiten to collect words, and is not the same with that. My is quite different from Bon-wa Daijiten in many points, but rather looks similar with Hirakawa's Chinese-Sanskrit Dictionary(1997), which is also based on Bon-wa Daijiten. please see my sample.(http://phaidrus.hihome.com) I basically agree with Dr.Hodge but I wonder if my work need a permission from them. I couldn't come up with copyright law in this case well. But If I need a permisstion, I'll try. I'am looking for the way everybody can use this free. Many thanks, Jaekwan Shim Dept. of Philosophy Kangnung National Univ. South Korea Stephen Hodge wrote: Jaekwan Shim wrote: I almost finished the inputting of the Sanskrit-Chinese(Japanese) Dictionary(Kan-yaku Taisho Bon-wa Daijiten by Unrai Wogiwara and Naoshiro Tsuji) in computer.(100,198 line / 2,947page-letter size / 2.2Mbite). ********* This sounds a very useful and worthwhile project. However there is one big problem. As far as I know the Bon-Wa Jiten is still copyrighted. As I understand the situation, unless you have explicit permission from the publishers, it will be illegal under international copyright law to publish this electronically -- I assume Korea is a signatory to this law. You could be liable to claims of very substantial damages. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Mon Aug 28 13:40:16 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 00 15:40:16 +0200 Subject: Bhagavadgita, cognition, Buddhism? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061163.23782.8757573485124059303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhagavadgita 13.5-6 gives the following summary definition of prakriti (kshetra): mahaabhuutaany aha.mkaaro buddhir avyaktam eva ca / indriyaa.ni dazaika.m ca pa?ca cendriyagocaraa.h // icchaa dve.sa.h sukha.m du.hkha.m sa.mghaataz cetanaa dh.rti.h / In their rendering of the last pada, most modern translators (some with a slight twist of their own) seem to follow Sankara's understanding of the three words as 'the body, consciousness, and endurance.' (Though one or two prefer Ramanuja's reading sa.mghaataz cetanaadh.rti.h 'the body, supporting consciousness'.) Presumably, the understanding of sa.mghaata as 'body' is based on MaiU 1.3. Nevertheless, with either reading, this last pada seems somewhat out of place. An alternative understanding which occurs to me is that of 'contact (sa.mghaata) [of the senses with the sense-fields], perception (cetanaa) [of pleasure or pain], and retention (dh.rti) [of impressions producing attachment and aversion].' This would tie in nicely with the technical use of dh.rti as a term for mental retention in 18.29-33, as well as with 13.5-6 as a whole. My question to list members -- especially those better acquainted with Buddhist, Jaina, or Sankhya materials than myself -- is whether these three terms (sa.mghaata, cetanaa, dh.rti), or others like them, occur as a sort of cognition triad in any other text/s. Any hints on this would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Aug 28 23:12:41 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 00 19:12:41 -0400 Subject: History of Mughalstan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061170.23782.3188804272893600142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000, Samar Abbas wrote: > History of Mughalstan > > History reveals that South Asia has consisted of several well-defined > distinct ethnic core regions, each with its own language, script, culture > and ethnicity. The core regions of Tamil Nadu, Gujarat and Maharashtra are > noteable examples which have existed since the early centuries AD. As > noted by Gandasa, South Asia is more like a continent than a monolithic > nation, consisting of distinct nations. Perhaps one of the latest to > evolve was the Muslim-dominated Indus-Ganges subregion; it is proposed > that this subregion be called Mughalstan. Who proposes? > Ever since Bhaktiyar Khilji > conquered Bihar and Bengal, the Indus-Ganges valley appears to have formed > one single distinct nation with its own language (Urdu), ethnic group > (Mughals) and culture. For most of the Delhi Sultanate, Mughalstan was one > united region, and the conquest of South India can be compared to the > extension of the French Empire into Germany under Napoleon. Likewise, the > core of the Indo-Tinurid Empire was Mughalstan, whilst other ethnic core > regions were ruled as tributary states rather than as part of Mughalstan. > Thus, from the Delhi Sultanate to the Indo-Timurieds, Mughalstan formed > one nation. The distinct culture of the conquered regions appears to have > been respected. Thus, a vibrant Dravidian civilization survived in the > South even during Mughal rule. Are you trying something? or are serious? Sounds way on the fringe... Is this a political move? BM From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Aug 28 18:13:06 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 00 19:13:06 +0100 Subject: [Re: Inputting Sanskrit Dictionary(Bon-wa Daijiten)] Message-ID: <161227061168.23782.2064680532192851281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jaekwan Shim wrote: > To say exactly, What I have done was based on the Bon-wa Daijiten > to collect words, and is not the same with that..... My guess is that if you have compiled a list of Sanskrit/Chinese correspondences in the manner you describe, you have less of a problem with copyright if at all. The parts that would be copyright are the Japanese definitions which you say you have omitted. Another very useful source of Chinese/Sanskrit for Buddhist terms is Hirakawa's Index to the Abhidharma-ko`sa-bhaa.sya (Part Two). Have you also seen the CJK Online Dictionary of Buddhist terms that Charles Mueller et al are compiling. They have also input a number of dictionary indices and other resources so it might be good if you contacted Charles Mueller at www.human.toyogakuen-u.ac.jp/~acmuller/index.html Hope this helps -- pls keep up the good work ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 29 06:20:06 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 00 06:20:06 +0000 Subject: Bhagavadgita, cognition, Buddhism? Message-ID: <161227061172.23782.7362141973596168339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Martin, I have been ruminating over these two verses for quite some time, so here are my 2 c. on it. It seems somewhat odd to think of the word sa.mghaata in terms of contact of the senses with their objects. This would be better conveyed by something like sa.myoga, or even spar;sa (in a general sense). sa.mghaata implies a collection, or an aggregate, like skandha in Buddhism. Sure, there is an expectation of contact between different things in sa.mghaata, but not in the dynamic sense of sensory perception, at least to my ears. >Bhagavadgita 13.5-6 gives the following summary definition of prakriti >(kshetra): > mahaabhuutaany aha.mkaaro buddhir avyaktam eva ca / > indriyaa.ni dazaika.m ca pa?ca cendriyagocaraa.h // > icchaa dve.sa.h sukha.m du.hkha.m sa.mghaataz cetanaa dh.rti.h / >In their rendering of the last pada, most modern translators (some with a >slight twist of their own) seem to follow Sankara's understanding of the >three words as 'the body, consciousness, and endurance.' (Though one Actually, such translations do not quite follow Sankara. Endurance of what? Or rather, whose? It cannot refer to the permanence of the self, which is the k.setrajna, whereas the verse talks only of the k.setra. And in this verse, dh.rti cannot be endurance as titik.saa either. Else, why include it as part of the k.setra, but not other qualities like amaanitva, adambhitva and so on (13.7-11)? Nor does it seem like dh.rti in 13.6 can be equated with that in 10.34 or 16.3. In Sankara's commentary, sa.mghaata is not just the body, but dehendriya sa.mhati, i.e. the aggregate of the body and the senses. And cetanaa is not pure consciousness itself, but its appearance (aabhaasa) in the internal organ. It therefore refers to a v.rtti of the internal organ, i.e. buddhi or vijnaana. In this interpretation, cetanaa presumes contact between the senses and their objects, but then, isn't such contact implied by the term indriya-gocara in 13.5? All that Sankara says about dh.rti is that it sustains the body and the senses when they are fatigued (avasaada). My guess is that he must be equating dh.rti with (mukhya?) praa.na. Cf. the upani.sad account, where the body survives when each of the senses leave, but neither the body as a whole nor any of the senses individually can function in the absence of the praa.na. Verse 13.5 enumerates the 24 principles of saa.mkhya (not including the puru.sa), none of which includes the praa.nas. None of the other terms in 13.6 would correspond to the praa.nas, unless one includes them under the term sa.mghaata. In this context, refer to Gita 7.4-5. Sankara interprets the words "eva ca" in 13.5 with respect to the a.s.tadhaa bhinnaa prak.rti, which is aparaa, and he equates the jiivabhuutaa paraa prak.rti (7.4-5) with the k.setrajna, which sustains the world by entering it (k.setrajna-lak.sa.naa, yayaa dhaaryate jagad anta.h pravi.s.tayaa), and which is praa.na-dhaara.na-nimitta-bhuutaa. And as the ;sariira is the k.setra, also see his comments on 18.14, where adhi.s.thaana refers to the ;sariira, listed in addition to the kara.nas (indriyas), while the term p.rthak-ce.s.taa.h refers to the praa.nas. >prefer Ramanuja's reading sa.mghaataz cetanaadh.rti.h 'the body, supporting >consciousness'.) If the reading were cetanaa-dh.rta.h, this interpretation would hold, as it would have been in apposition to sa.mghaata.h. It seems rather forced for the reading dh.rti.h, which is an independent noun here. Even if cetanaadh.rti.h were seen as one compound word, and interpreted as Yogic dhaara.naa or ekaagrataa or citta-samaadhaana, it would still not relate to sa.mghaata. Anyway, such a reference to Yoga would be out of place when only enumerating the parts of the k.setra. > >Presumably, the understanding of sa.mghaata as 'body' is based on MaiU 1.3. >Nevertheless, with either reading, this last pada seems somewhat out It seems out of place because there is no particular connection with saa.mkhya thought. However, following Sankara's interpretation, 13.6 refers not to saa.mkhya, but to nyaaya-vai;se.sika, where icchaa, dve.sa, sukha, du.hkha and jnaana are the marks of the self. Of course, in that school, jnaana is necessarily relational, and one could equate cetanaa with such jnaana. In nyaaya, perception involves not only contact between the senses and their objects, but also contact between the senses and the internal organ, and between the internal organ and the self. You might find something useful in this connection in the N-V texts, more than in saa.mkhya texts. Hope somebody comes up with useful references from Buddhist texts. >of dh.rti as a term for mental retention in 18.29-33, as well as with >13.5-6 as a whole. It seems to me that saatvikii buddhi and avyabhicaari.nii dh.rti in 18.30-33 can be better correlated with dh.rti-g.rhiitaa-buddhi in 6.25, the daivii-sampat in 16.1-3, and sama-cittatva, ananya-yoga and avyabhicaari.nii-bhakti in 13.7-11. dh.rti in 13.6 is to be related only to ;sariira or k.setra and its components. I suppose it all depends on how one views the words ;sariira and k.setra, but again, why include only dh.rti as part of k.setra in 13.6, but not the other qualities of 13.7-11, which are listed along with adhyaatma-jnaana and tattva-jnaana? The only difficulty is that all this makes 13.6 unique in the entire text, in its usage of the word dh.rti, but I see no easy way around it. Perhaps it is meant to be unique, no matter how one looks at it. Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Aug 29 06:31:45 2000 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 00 07:31:45 +0100 Subject: hacker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061180.23782.9908517415051354114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Can anyone tell me if Paul Hacker's monogram, "Untersuchungen uber Texte des fruhen Advaitavada" has ever been translated into English and if so, where. Thanks, John Grimes From kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM Tue Aug 29 15:24:03 2000 From: kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM (Krishna Kalale) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 00 08:24:03 -0700 Subject: Reviewers , well versed in Upanisads, needed In-Reply-To: <390AC379FFD2D21193130008C70D3538D36961@irene.um.be> Message-ID: <161227061188.23782.10366611468926217264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. SMS Chari has written a new book - "Philosophy of the Upanisads, a comparitive assessment based on the bhasyas of Samkara, Ramanuja & Madhva". Dr. Chari is a seasoned "Vedanta Expert" with 5 or 6 books ( in English) to his credit. He has studied under traditional scholars in India and is active in Vedanta for the last 60 or so years. His previous book was "Philosophy of the Brahmasutras - a comparitive assessment based on the bhasyas of Samkara, Ramanuja & Madhva He wanted a few reviewers for his current book. I would appreciate if anyone can suggest experts who have studied different commentaries on the Upanisads to review this book. The book is written in English. I had a chance to look into this book myself. I did study under him while he was preparing these two books. I feel that it is a book that is "one of its kind". Krishna Kalale kkalale1 at san.rr.com From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Aug 29 08:40:07 2000 From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 00 10:40:07 +0200 Subject: The "Net of Indra" Message-ID: <161227061176.23782.10142264421072553404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A question, a reference, and a note from an anupaniita;si.sya: * What texts are you referring to when you mention "Indrajaala texts"? As for Vedic, I find no references except at the chronologically distant passages AV;S 8.8 = AVP 16.29 and AVPari;s 3.1.13 (plus some late Upani.sadic passages). * In case you had not come across this yet, you might consult Teun Goudriaan's "Maayaa, Divine an Human", which has a lengthy chapter on the concept of the .Sa.tkarmaa.ni. * An Orissa manuscript (belonging to an Oriya Atharvavedic brahmin) is available to me, which seems to be related to the little known text(s)/system of magical rituals which are referred to "(Praty)AA:ngirasakalpa". It offers i.a. a description of these Six Acts. The ms. also contains geometric and yantra/ma.n.dala type drawings, which are to be used for these acts. There are several flowers, among these shapes, but they all seem to have 8 (or more) petals. -- Arlo Griffiths CNWS / Instituut Kern Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden the Netherlands tel.: +31-71-5272979 ---------- >From: Artur Karp >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: The "Net of Indra" >Date: zat, 26 aug 2000 5:06 PM > > A short remark and a question concerning the "Net of Indra". > > IndrajAla texts group some static aspects of reality (like directions, > seasons, tithis, names of divinities, numbers, colors, animals, etc.) around > the aggregate of the "Six [magic] Acts" (SaTkarmANi) - zAntikaraNa > (pacifying), vazIkaraNa (subjugating), stambhana (stopping), vidveSaNa > (exciting enmity), uccATana (eradicating), mAraNa (killing). The "Six Acts" > can thus be seen as the central nodes of the "Net of Indra"; all other > elements of the "Net" are not independent and seem to function only as > symbolic representations of the "Six Acts". > > Graphically, one is tempted to imagine a flower of six petals, the tip of > each petal surrounded by its own, specific constellation of signs (magical > equivalences, "mAraNa" = black = buffalo, etc.). But it is also possible to > see in the "Six Acts" a hierarchically arranged sequence, a kind of cyclical > strategy, in which every (black) "mAraNa" is followed by a new (white) > "zAntikaraNa", every unsuccessful (white) "zAntikaraNa" by a (red) > "vazIkaraNa", every unsuccessful (red) "vazIkaraNa" by a (yellow) > "stambhana" - and so on. > > Sign systems of this kind used to be used in attempts to manipulate and > transform reality. Also - to read intentions of other manipulators and > neutralize > in advance their harmful effects. Is the "Net of Indra" enumerated anywhere > among the skills employed in the art of politics? > > > With regards, > > Artur Karp > University of Warsaw > Poland > > P.S. Is there an English translation of Hermann Oldenberg's "Die > Weltanschauung der Brahmanatexte" (Gottingen 1919)? > > Any recent work on the "Net of Indra"? > > A.K. From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Tue Aug 29 10:38:04 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 00 12:38:04 +0200 Subject: Bhagavadgita, cognition, Buddhism? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000829085442.0079be80@pop.lu.se> Message-ID: <161227061178.23782.4097434537136275271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Vidyasankar, Thank you for your comments. Let me begin with sa.mghaata: >Sure, there is an expectation of contact between different things in >sa.mghaata, but not in the dynamic sense of sensory perception, at least to >my ears. I have to disagree with you there. The most literal sense of sam+han is surely dynamic: 'clashing together (hence the meaning 'combat'), joining', etc. The meaning 'aggregate' is only secondary. Next, cetanaa and dh.rti: Sankara's explanation of dh.rti as 'that by which the body and senses, when fatigued, are sustained (dhriyante)' sounds like 'endurance' to me. And of course that is one possible meaning; but it does not strike me as the likely one in this particular context. Equating dh.rti with a praa.na also sounds rather far-fetched to me, and not supported by text-internal evidence. The Gita repeatedly juxtaposes dh.rti with words like buddhi, medhaa, and cetanaa; cf. 6.25 (cited by yourself), 18.29-35, 18.51. This is not to say that dh.rti has no other meaning in the Gita; but when it occurs several times in a certain context ('thinking' words), my guess is that it has a technical meaning in those passages. And that meaning seems allied to that of dhaara.naa, from the same root: focussing on or holding on to a mental state. >dh.rti in 13.6 is to be related only to >;sariira or k.setra and its components ... why include only dh.rti as >part of k.setra in 13.6, but not the other qualities of 13.7-11 In my view, precisely because dh.rti in 13.6 does *not* denote a character trait like k.saanti or sthairya, but rather a link in the cognitive process -- which in any case is indisputably part of k.setra. Re. Ramanuja's reading: >If the reading were cetanaa-dh.rta.h, this interpretation would hold, as it >would have been in apposition to sa.mghaata.h. It seems rather forced for >the reading dh.rti.h, which is an independent noun here. Sorry if I was unclear. R. reads cetanaadh.rti.h as a compound of cetanaa + aadh.rti.h = caitanya + aadhaara.h. I agree that this is unlikely, but at least it has the merit of attempting to make internal sense. >It seems out of place because there is no particular connection with >saa.mkhya thought. Not only that; it seems out of place because (with the 'standard' interpretation) dh.rti 'endurance etc.' appears to be a mental quality (anta.hkara.nadharma, as Sankara says) chosen completely at random, and hardly on a par with such fundamental units as 'body' (sa.mghaata) and 'mind' (cetanaa). You are right that there may be some clue in Nyaya-Vaisheshika texts; thanks for pointing this out. Regards, Martin From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Tue Aug 29 07:47:30 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 00 13:17:30 +0530 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227061174.23782.17003863906769701833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On Mon, 28 Aug 2000, Samar Abbas wrote: > >> History of Mughalstan >>> ; it is proposed >> that this subregion be called Mughalstan. >THE RESPONSE WAS >Who proposes? >Are you trying something? or are serious? > >Sounds way on the fringe... Is this a political move? > >BM ++++++++++++++++++++++++ May I make a suggestion?Do not read between the lines. Just read the lines. Whether a person is serious or not,whether he is making a political move is his problem.Look at the positive side. Even if a person has a political move in mind,it is encouraging that he is seeking legitimacy through intellectual activity. Fight him on the firm ground of legitimacy not on the marsh lald of motive. Rajesh Kochhar From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Tue Aug 29 14:34:58 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 00 15:34:58 +0100 Subject: iron pillar Message-ID: <161227061186.23782.2145882714401326826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Robert: The following book has detailed analysis and discussion Biswas, A.K., 1996" Minerals and Metals in India", D.K. Print World Ltd., Shree Kunj , F-52 Bali Nagar, New Delhi-15. Regards, Anand M. Sharan From Eric.Robert at UM.BE Tue Aug 29 13:51:30 2000 From: Eric.Robert at UM.BE (Robert, Eric) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 00 15:51:30 +0200 Subject: iron pillar Message-ID: <161227061184.23782.7190291692639349876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, would any of you know if there was a detailed chemical analysis of the famous iron pillar of the Kutab Minar in Delhi? Thanks in advance Eric Robert From anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH Tue Aug 29 15:55:18 2000 From: anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH (NAYAK Anand) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 00 17:55:18 +0200 Subject: Reviewers , well versed in Upanisads, needed Message-ID: <161227061190.23782.8601617326462822136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Kalale, Thanks for the information. I am an an ardent student of the upanishads and would gladly review the book for the european journals (in English, French or German) A.Nayak Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Avenue de l'Europe 20 CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK -----Message d'origine----- De: Krishna Kalale [mailto:kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM] Date: mardi, 29. ao?t 2000 17:24 ?: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Objet: Reviewers , well versed in Upanisads, needed Dr. SMS Chari has written a new book - "Philosophy of the Upanisads, a comparitive assessment based on the bhasyas of Samkara, Ramanuja & Madhva". Dr. Chari is a seasoned "Vedanta Expert" with 5 or 6 books ( in English) to his credit. He has studied under traditional scholars in India and is active in Vedanta for the last 60 or so years. His previous book was "Philosophy of the Brahmasutras - a comparitive assessment based on the bhasyas of Samkara, Ramanuja & Madhva He wanted a few reviewers for his current book. I would appreciate if anyone can suggest experts who have studied different commentaries on the Upanisads to review this book. The book is written in English. I had a chance to look into this book myself. I did study under him while he was preparing these two books. I feel that it is a book that is "one of its kind". Krishna Kalale kkalale1 at san.rr.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 29 20:52:58 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 00 20:52:58 +0000 Subject: Bhagavadgita, cognition, Buddhism? Message-ID: <161227061194.23782.15116006041867579151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: sa.mghaata, there are numerous references to dehendriya-sa.mghaata or ;sariirendriya-sa.mghaata, in Sankara's commentary on BU also. >the body and senses, when fatigued, are sustained (dhriyante)' sounds like >'endurance' to me. And of course that is one possible meaning; but it How about sustenance? Or sustentation, in the meaning of - "the action of maintaining a person or concrete thing in being or activity, or of keeping it from failing or perishing; esp. in the 17th cent. of divine support. Now rare." (OED) There may be a similar meaning in the Gita too - compare daiva in 18.14, along with adhi.s.thaana, kartaa, kara.na and p.rthak-ce.s.taa.h. does >not strike me as the likely one in this particular context. Equating dh.rti >with a praa.na also sounds rather far-fetched to me, and not supported by >text-internal evidence. Coming to think of it, I have to revise my guess. Although praa.na can be a generic word, to denote the sense organs, I've never seen the reverse case, where praa.na is equated with an anta.hkara.na-dharma or v.rtti anywhere. So when Sankara equates dh.rti with an aspect of the internal organ, he probably does not intend the praa.na. You must be right to hold that as in other references in the text, the word is aligned with buddhi, medhaa, cetanaa etc. >Not only that; it seems out of place because (with the 'standard' >interpretation) dh.rti 'endurance etc.' appears to be a mental quality >(anta.hkara.nadharma, as Sankara says) chosen completely at random, and >hardly on a par with such fundamental units as 'body' (sa.mghaata) and >'mind' (cetanaa). This is where the connection with holding together the body and senses comes in, I suppose. Without it, one cannot distinguish between a dead thing and a living organism that interacts with the surroundings and "knows". In any case, also see saa.mkhyakaarikaa 29-33 - the references to the 13 organs, the 18-fold subtle body, and the activity of manas, buddhi and aha.mkaara in sustaining the purya.s.taka/praa.naa.s.taka. Best, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Tue Aug 29 15:26:15 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 00 20:56:15 +0530 Subject: History of Mughalstan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061192.23782.427053171687644312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000, Bijoy Misra wrote: > Are you ... serious? It may sound absurd at first, but perhaps Indian history may be better viewed as the Delhi Sultanate forming one distinct nation instead of as merely another series of dynasties. Indeed, too much emphasis is laid on dynasties in general instead of geography. Thus, we hear `Chola Empire' not `Tamil Empire,' `Solaniki Kingdom' instead of `Gujarati Empire' etc. > Is this a political move ? No, but a rewriting of history along national lines as in Europe may contribute to ethnic and race pride, which in turn may have political effects. But such processes take a long time - so any rewriting of history (political or otherwise) will have to wait. Rajesh Kochhar wrote: > Even if a person has a political move in mind,it is encouraging that he > is seeking legitimacy through intellectual activity. So far, the proposed Sakastan has not been refuted. The term `Sakastan' is to be found on various coins and pillars, whilst `Mughalstan' is also found on coins and manuscripts of the period. Historians may wish to reassess traditional views and uncover the history of these neglected regions. Instead of viewing Indian history as a series of dyansties, they may wish to rewrite it on the lines of European history, with several distinct nations engaging in conflict with one another. Samar From shimj at USA.NET Tue Aug 29 22:28:13 2000 From: shimj at USA.NET (JAEKWAN SHIM) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 00 22:28:13 +0000 Subject: [Re: [Re: Inputting Sanskrit Dictionary(Bon-wa Daijiten)]] Message-ID: <161227061182.23782.10908699725534091073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for reminding Hirakawa's Index and copyright advise, Dr. Hodge. I'm going to touch with Dr. Mueller soon. Jaek Shim. Stephen Hodge wrote: Jaekwan Shim wrote: > To say exactly, What I have done was based on the Bon-wa Daijiten > to collect words, and is not the same with that..... My guess is that if you have compiled a list of Sanskrit/Chinese correspondences in the manner you describe, you have less of a problem with copyright if at all. The parts that would be copyright are the Japanese definitions which you say you have omitted. Another very useful source of Chinese/Sanskrit for Buddhist terms is Hirakawa's Index to the Abhidharma-ko`sa-bhaa.sya (Part Two). Have you also seen the CJK Online Dictionary of Buddhist terms that Charles Mueller et al are compiling. They have also input a number of dictionary indices and other resources so it might be good if you contacted Charles Mueller at www.human.toyogakuen-u.ac.jp/~acmuller/index.html Hope this helps -- pls keep up the good work ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 30 04:47:41 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 04:47:41 +0000 Subject: History of Mughalstan Message-ID: <161227061196.23782.14635966029909823449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >So far, the proposed Sakastan has not been refuted. The term `Sakastan' >is to be found on various coins and pillars, whilst `Mughalstan' is also >found on coins and manuscripts of the period. Historians may wish to >reassess traditional views and uncover the history of these neglected >regions. Instead of viewing Indian history as a series of dyansties, they >may wish to rewrite it on the lines of European history, with several >distinct nations engaging in conflict with one another. In Indian history there's not much evidence that *people* identifed themselves as nations like it was in Europe. True that they might have had pride in being part of the Pallava or the Chola empire (which in all probability was motivated by economic/trade concerns than anything else), but still the underlying culture - the thread of civilizational unity - was strong enough for them to identify themselves as Bhaaratiyas or Hindus as against the foreigners - mlechaas or Turkas or Yaavanas. The bond was strong enough for saints and philosophers like Buddha and Shankara and Ramanuja to travel the land amongst *their* people and spread their teachings. The thread was strong enough for brahmins down the ages to migrate to newer places *inside* Bhaaratvarsha and settle down to spread the Vedic dharma. The civilizational bonding was strong enough for the bhakti saints to come together and spread theism throughout India overlooking differences in language/region. This sentiment is implicit in Thiruvalluvar's claim that unlike Kings who are important only in their own lands, the learned are revered wherever they go. So whatever might have been the dynasty in power or the feeling of nationhood in certain regions , still the consicousness of an underlying common civilizational unity, was pretty strong in the hearts of the people. Maybe it was due to the dominant spiritual element in the Vedic ideal which lifted the civilizational consciousness above the pettiness of linguism/regionalism. >Even if a person has a political move in mind,it is encouraging that he >is seeking legitimacy through intellectual activity. Yes, generally speaking this is the way to go. But when, as even the Buddha and Manu advise, it is not good to speak even the truth if it will lead to harm, what is the point in entertaining Samar's views which has little truth in it and can only fuel more secessionist/divisive tendencies? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Aug 30 12:11:35 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 13:11:35 +0100 Subject: Inputting Sanskrit Dictionary(Bon-wa Daijiten) In-Reply-To: <001d01c00f5c$a1660700$2d16893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227061198.23782.16612147779288302516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 26 Aug 2000, Stephen Hodge wrote: > As far as I know the Bon-Wa Jiten is still copyrighted. As I > understand the situation, unless you have explicit permission from the > publishers, it will be illegal under international copyright law to > publish this electronically -- I assume Korea is a signatory to this > law. It is a breach of copyright law to make the copy in the first place, not just to distribute it. Even in private, for one's own use. Still not legal. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Aug 30 12:32:36 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 13:32:36 +0100 Subject: History of Mughalstan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061200.23782.10840331857058522207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000, Samar Abbas wrote: > History reveals [...] This is an anthropomorphic metaphor, of course. History is not a person, and cannot act. The information found in history books is created by historians, and is profoundly contingent on many factors, including their personal beliefs. Sensible readers encountering a sentence beginning "History reveals..." will immediately be on their guard, since what usually follows is the private opinion of the writer which he or she cannot be troubled to justify. I am not saying that Samar Abbas's posting has no merit. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 30 13:47:54 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 13:47:54 +0000 Subject: History of Mughalstan Message-ID: <161227061202.23782.4960051893242862510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >but still the underlying culture - the thread of civilizational >unity - was strong enough for them to identify themselves as >Bhaaratiyas or Hindus as against the foreigners >- mlechaas or Turkas or Yaavanas. Considering that the Indo-Aryans migrated into India in post-Harappan times, the origins of the word, "mlecha" is significant. Originally, it was meluHHa in Pali and in Sumerian clay tablets. Experts on the Indus culture derive meluHHa as Dravidian, close to Tamil "mElakam". Also, consider the related words for pepper: Drav. mi.laku and MIA mirchii. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From tawady at YAHOO.COM Wed Aug 30 16:01:50 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 17:01:50 +0100 Subject: History of Mughalstan Message-ID: <161227061206.23782.15787593791759044524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 04:47:41 GMT, nanda chandran wrote: >thread was strong enough for brahmins down the ages to migrate to newer >places *inside* Bhaaratvarsha and settle down to spread the Vedic dharma. > That is not entirely true, Vedic Dharma was also spread to what is today Vietnam, Cambodia, Java, Sumatra, Burma, Nepal and Xinjiang in China. I do not think that the Brahmins saw what is today Andhra Pradesh and Bengal as any different than what is today Vietnam. It was a frontier and opportunity to make a living that kept pushed out till it reached its maximum potential and eventually retreating to peninsular India not because the Brahmins wanted it that way. Regards Raveen From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Wed Aug 30 15:20:01 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 17:20:01 +0200 Subject: Bhagavadgita, cognition, Buddhism? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061204.23782.18145092463237650897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Re: sa.mghaata, there are numerous references to dehendriya-sa.mghaata or >;sariirendriya-sa.mghaata, in Sankara's commentary on BU also. Yes; but what did the word mean to the author of the Gita, who antedated Sankara by many centuries? It occurs only once in the Gita, and not often in the classical Upanishads. (The MaiU, as mentioned previously, indeed refers to the body as a 'sa.mghaata' of various impure substances; this may be why S. and R. both read the body into this rather obscure passage.) >How about sustenance? As an English term for what Sankara is referring to, yes. But for dh.rti in BhG 13.6, I doubt it. Because of its juxtaposition with cetanaa, I would prefer to go by the meaning obviously intended in 18.29-33 (where it is similarly juxtaposed with buddhi); and then to conjecture the meaning of sa.mghaata based on the other two words. That is, unless I can find some reference to this triad outside the Gita... Best, Martin From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 30 18:30:45 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 18:30:45 +0000 Subject: Bhagavadgita, cognition, Buddhism? Message-ID: <161227061209.23782.990507549261809516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >refers to the body as a 'sa.mghaata' of various impure substances; this may >be why S. and R. both read the body into this rather obscure passage.) Well, take into account the content of verses 13.5-6. This is one of enumeration (sa.mkhyaa), which underlies all of saa.mkhya thought. Having ticked off the list of the five (subtle) elements, the ego, the intellect, the unmanifest, the ten organs with mind as the eleventh and the five objects of the senses, there is an expectation in saa.mkhya that the k.setra should specifically mention the locus of all these, which is the body. A similar expectation arises from the vai;se.sika perspective also, which asks for the aa;sraya of the indriyas and their activity. In both schools of thought, a distinction is made between the deha that is maataa-pit.r-ja (saa.mkhya) or yonija (vai;se.sika) and the indriyas that are bhuuta-ja. Also, the list of things in 13.5 would be regarded as purely material and non-conscious. 13.2 has already set the conscious k.setrajna apart from the k.setra, but activity and cognitive processes are still part of the k.setra. Now 13.6 steps in, to list things that are signs of life and awareness or cognition (saa.mkhya) or that are inferential marks of the individual self (vai;se.sika). It is in this context that one must look for the meanings of sa.mghaata and dh.rti in this verse. The commentators seem to have good reason to bring in the body here. Also see yuktidiipikaa on saa.mkhyakaarikaa 29, where dh.rti is one of five karmayonis, which are the entities that sustain life in the body. The same set of five karmayonis is mentioned in the tattvasamaasa too, a text that is believed to have preserved a number of pre-kaarikaa notions in saa.mkhya. The yuktidiipikaa is undoubtedly a mine of information in this regard, which would make this text highly pertinent to the proto-saa.mkhya background of the Gita. > > >How about sustenance? > >As an English term for what Sankara is referring to, yes. But for dh.rti in >BhG 13.6, I doubt it. Because of its juxtaposition with cetanaa, I would >prefer to go by the meaning obviously intended in 18.29-33 (where it is >similarly juxtaposed with buddhi); and then to conjecture the meaning of >sa.mghaata based on the other two words. That is, unless I can find Seems to me that you should also take 18.34-35 into account, as both buddhi and dh.rti can be colored differently by sattva, rajas and tamas, which are after all, characteristics of prak.rti. However, one must distinguish between dh.rti in 18.33-35 from dh.rti in 18.43, where it is just one of the marks of the k.satriya var.na. Similarly, one must distinguish between buddhi as a specific organ (which is material) and buddhi in the general sense of knowledge or awareness or judgment. The sense of 13.6 points to both cetanaa and dh.rti as things that may be subtle, but are material nonetheless. Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 30 23:56:16 2000 From: masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM (Rustam Masalewala) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 19:56:16 -0400 Subject: History of Mughalstan Message-ID: <161227061219.23782.16917960642871066670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anand M. Sharan, >1. Bakhtiar Khilji , when he captured Bihar, burnt the Nalanda University >library. Excuse me, was there a library spared? You talk of Nalanda as if that was the only one destroyed. >2. Allauddin Khilji had imposed one of the heaviest taxes on his subjects. That greatly minimizes what happened. A large number of people, both ordinary and noble, were taken into slavery, flooding the slave markets. I have seen an estimate that a third of India's population perished in the first 2-3 centuries of Islamic expansion. >3. Malik Kaafoor had destroyed temples in South India . Were they spared in North? Is there one that the conquerers did not destroy in the area conquered? However it must be said that India was luckier than Iran where devastation was almost total, leaving only a trace of the past. Rustam ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU Thu Aug 31 00:09:46 2000 From: sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (Lambodara) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 20:09:46 -0400 Subject: interesting experience Message-ID: <161227061221.23782.12912209914046233419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends; As an amatuer indologist (and now a laboring sanskrit student) i always pay close attention to all my encounters with Indian culture. This past weekend i was at my local convenience store where the clerk has become a good aquaintence over the past year.( he was born and raised in India) I was telling him of my travel plans for this fall and my intention of learning rudimentary hindi so that i could communicate better when in major cities in the north. His response was immediatly shocking to me. He told me at great length how though most people believe they are speaking hindi, they are actually speaking Urduu. This seems a bit of a rediculous claim considering that none of the hindi liturature i have seen displays an arabic alphabet. so my question is this: is there any value to this claim? Also, is this a reletively common claim? Namaskar Stephen J Brown University of Rochester. From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Wed Aug 30 18:57:19 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 20:57:19 +0200 Subject: Bhagavadgita, cognition, Buddhism? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061211.23782.17974807229108104187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >there is an expectation in saa.mkhya that the k.setra >should specifically mention the locus of all these, which is the body. But the body has already been equated with the k.setra (13.1), whereas sa.mghaata etc. are listed as constituent parts (or even transformations: vikaara) of the k.setra. From a purely text-internal perspective, then, one would not expect sa.mghaata to be yet another synonym for 'body'. >Also, the list of things in 13.5 would be regarded as purely material and >non-conscious ... >Now 13.6 steps in, to list things that are signs of life and awareness or >cognition To be sure, mental 'organs' are regarded as material; but why should buddhi (listed in 13.5) be thought more so than cetanaa or dh.rti (13.6) -- which even in Sankara's view are functions of the buddhi, vij?aana or anta.hkara.na? I don't follow this argument. As far as I can see, from a Samkhya perspective, all items listed in 13.5-6 would seem to belong to the same category, i.e., prak.rti. >Also see yuktidiipikaa on saa.mkhyakaarikaa 29, where dh.rti is one of five >karmayonis, which are the entities that sustain life in the body. I'm afraid I lack access to this commentary. Could you please list the names of the other karmayonis? >Seems to me that you should also take 18.34-35 into account, as both buddhi >and dh.rti can be colored differently by sattva, rajas and tamas, which are >after all, characteristics of prak.rti. You are quite right; I meant 18.29-35. I was quoting from my obviously imperfect memory! >However, one must distinguish between dh.rti in 18.33-35 from dh.rti in >18.43, where it is just one of the marks of the k.satriya var.na. Certainly, both dh.rti and (even more so) buddhi are used with different meanings in different contexts in the Gita. That's part of the problem. Best, Martin From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 30 21:34:05 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 21:34:05 +0000 Subject: Bhagavadgita, cognition, Buddhism? Message-ID: <161227061217.23782.13107797430045250516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >But the body has already been equated with the k.setra (13.1), whereas >sa.mghaata etc. are listed as constituent parts (or even transformations: >vikaara) of the k.setra. From a purely text-internal perspective, then, one >would not expect sa.mghaata to be yet another synonym for 'body'. Agreed. Which is why sa.mghaata is not just the body or the deha, but the totality of deha + indriyas. It would then include that which causes the association between these. Perhaps, the expectation is that the whole is more than the sum of the parts. >To be sure, mental 'organs' are regarded as material; but why should buddhi >(listed in 13.5) be thought more so than cetanaa or dh.rti (13.6) -- which >even in Sankara's view are functions of the buddhi, vij?aana or >anta.hkara.na? I don't follow this argument. As far as I can see, from a >Samkhya perspective, all items listed in 13.5-6 would seem to belong to the >same category, i.e., prak.rti. In saa.mkhya, you have, avyakta -> mahat -> aha.mkaara -> 5 tanmaatras -> 5 mahaabhuutas | V manas and ten organs In Gita 13.5, you have, 5 elements, aha.mkaara, buddhi, avyakta, 11 organs and 5 sense-objects. If you correlate the two, the five mahaabhuutas are the five objects of the senses, and manas is the eleventh organ. If you also view Gita 13.5 in terms of a causal chain, as in standard saa.mkhya, buddhi represents mahat, which arises directly from avyakta, but prior to aha.mkaara. It is therefore a more universal principle, as you need to admit aha.mkaara, in order to talk of the individual (body, gross or subtle). All saa.mkhya texts view buddhi as a synonym for mahat, but this is part of the thoroughgoing correlation between macro- and micro- realms in saa.mkhya. Note also that there is sufficient evidence to show that in early saa.mkhya there was substantial debate over whether puru.sa is one or many. There is also the individual intellect, which is "puru.sa-ruupa-iva", which is a function of mental activity, and which, being an individual principle, presupposes aha.mkaara. cetanaa in 13.6 would fit in with this notion. The other distinction that can be made from within a saa.mkhya perspective is that buddhi in 13.5 would be both generated and generative, but cetanaa in 13.6 would be derivative of manas and not generative of any new principle. Thus, k.setra is described, from yad vikaari in 13.4, to savikaara.m samaasena in 13.6. Re: five karmayonis, yuktidiipikaa and tattvasamaasa list dh.rti, ;sraddhaa, sukha, avividi.saa and vividi.saa. The first four lead to bandha and the last leads to mok.sa. There is a 1967 edition of YD from Banarsidass, edited by R. C. Pandeya, and a critical edition by Wezler and Motegi has come out in 1998. Best, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Wed Aug 30 20:43:01 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 21:43:01 +0100 Subject: History of Mughalstan Message-ID: <161227061215.23782.4834055493401750525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> After watching for some time, I feel that this discussion should include the following information: 1. Bakhtiar Khilji , whenhe captured Bihar, burnt the Nalanda University library . The books were burning for approximately six months. The burning of libraries was not unprecedented . Even the Alexandria University was burnt in the early Christian Era . 2. Allauddin Khilji had imposed one of the heaviest taxes on his subjects. 3. Malik Kaafoor had destroyed temples in South India . The religion has divided mankind much more than it has united , in our history . I wish people do not practise ideals of wrong people. Thanks. Anand M. Sharan From zydenbos at GMX.LI Wed Aug 30 19:55:53 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 21:55:53 +0200 Subject: History of Mughalstan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061213.23782.9067613510576071520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This thread seems another one that could be on an unfortunate way to fruitlessness because of superficial and inaccurate comparisons. I will try to give a different view here. Am 30 Aug 2000, um 4:47 schrieb nanda chandran: > In Indian history there's not much evidence that *people* > identifed themselves as nations like it was in Europe. True that > they might have had pride in being part of the Pallava or the Chola > empire (which in all probability was motivated by economic/trade > concerns than anything else), but still the underlying culture - > the thread of civilizational unity - was strong enough for them to > identify themselves as Bhaaratiyas or Hindus as against the > foreigners - mlechaas or Turkas or Yaavanas. In other words: there is not much difference with Europe (with its various kingdoms and empires), provided that you realise that India should be compared not with any single European country, but with Europe as a whole. (I have in fact been arguing this, also in print, for at least eleven years.) In earlier times, the Europeans had the Huns and the Turks as common enemies, again on the basis of a certain civilisational unity. But this did not mean that there were intra-European differences _on a different level_. Cf. also the following: > The thread was strong enough for brahmins down the ages to migrate > to newer places *inside* Bhaaratvarsha and settle down to spread > the Vedic dharma. The civilizational bonding was strong enough for > the bhakti saints to come together and spread theism throughout > India overlooking differences in language/region. This sentiment is > implicit in Thiruvalluvar's claim that unlike Kings who are > important only in their own lands, the learned are revered wherever > they go. Let us not forget that there was a Christian dharma across Europe, and scholars moved around freely using the lingustic medium of the Latin 'devabhaa.saa'. Thus, e.g., Erasmus from Rotterdam (in the Netherlands) studied in Paris (France), did his doctorate in Turin (Italy), taught in Cambridge (England), had most of his books published in Basel (Switzerland), toured and lectured in other countries as well and was widely read all across Europe; and if he had been an Indian, he would have shown contempt for political squibbles on the 'Chola-Pallava' level, just as he contemned violent national / subnational politics in Europe. His _Querela pacis_ would have been aimed at, e.g., the Marathas (nowadays portrayed as 'Indian nationalists' by certain persons, because they supposedly fought in the name of 'Hinduism') who went around plundering the Indian countryside. The real 'problem' in these 'discussions' is that modern India (which is a British creation, in the sense that at no time prior to the British period 'India' as a _state_ existed) _cannot_ be culturally compared with any European state except in a most flimsy manner. Culturally and historically speaking, India is not a country, but a continent. > [...] Maybe it was due to the dominant spiritual > element in the Vedic ideal which lifted the civilizational > consciousness above the pettiness of linguism/regionalism. This is more of the same, viz. another faulty comparison, this one popularised by Vivekananda, who has done a lot to propagate the myth of 'spiritual India' vis-?-vis the 'materialist West', where such a contrast does not really exist; but the myth has a certain political use, hence it remains popular. (In the West the myth is popular for radically different, typically Western reasons.) > >Even if a person has a political move in mind,it is encouraging that > >he is seeking legitimacy through intellectual activity. > > Yes, generally speaking this is the way to go. But when, as even the > Buddha and Manu advise, it is not good to speak even the truth if it > will lead to harm, what is the point in entertaining Samar's views > which has little truth in it and can only fuel more > secessionist/divisive tendencies? What is the alternative to searching for truth? Locking ourselves up in mathas, madrasas, seminaries etc., each with his own myth of 'spirituality' ? This may not be everybody's cup of tea. Even if Samar Abbas' original message looks a little quirky, the proper response to it is not to ban such questions out of fear of 'secessionism'. Is it not a fact that there have been bloody wars all over South Asia throughout all of its history, irrespective of what myth-makers have said about 'spiritual' 'Vedic' tendencies etc.? And the wars were fought by real soldiers doing real killing and plundering, who professed loyalty to the kings of their lands, which were not coextensive with today's India. If one wants to understand more about how this worked (and through this understanding also avoid further tensions), one should not hush up things for the sake of an ethnocentric, quasi-religious, political myth that is not working very well anyway. RZ Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut fuer Indologie und Tamilistik Universitaet zu Koeln E-mail zydenbos at gmx.li From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Thu Aug 31 05:27:48 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 01:27:48 -0400 Subject: interesting experience Message-ID: <161227061227.23782.7026909902736451425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends; As an amatuer indologist (and now a laboring sanskrit student) i always pay close attention to all my encounters with Indian culture. This past weekend i was at my local convenience store where the clerk has become a good aquaintence over the past year.( he was born and raised in India) I was telling him of my travel plans for this fall and my intention of learning rudimentary hindi so that i could communicate better when in major cities in the north. His response was immediatly shocking to me. He told me at great length how though most people believe they are speaking hindi, they are actually speaking Urduu. This seems a bit of a rediculous claim considering that none of the hindi liturature i have seen displays an arabic alphabet. so my question is this: is there any value to this claim? Also, is this a reletively common claim? Namaskar Stephen J Brown University of Rochester. The script/alphabet does not determine the language spoken. both urdu and hindi can be rendered in the nagari or arabic script. The grammar is also the same. What differentiates urdu from hindi is just a choice in vocabulary. for example saying dost instead of mitra both of which mean friend. Normal spoken hindi uses sanskritic as well as some persian words but cannot be termed as urdu. An urdu speaker would normally substitute all sanskritic words with persian/arabic. In general most hindi speakers can urduise their hindi a bit and have a sense of what is arabic/persian and what is not. The authentic urdu speakers have a better persio-arabic vocabulary though. sincerely RB From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Thu Aug 31 00:37:59 2000 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 02:37:59 +0200 Subject: Bhagavadgita, cognition, Buddhism? Message-ID: <161227061223.23782.10142221011948959188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, perhaps it is too obvious to mention, but I think SK 17 is relevant: "saMghAta- parArthatvAt [...] puruSo 'sti" - there must be a soul, because a system always serves someone else's purpose. Here saMghAta clearly refers to the body, and its meaning seems to be 'system, organisation, structured compound'. This fits the context well: BhG 13, 5 listed all the elements (tattva) of nature, in the order 8 prakRtis - 16 vikAras (cf. Buddhacarita XII, 18-19). Verse 6 does not add more elements; it mentions two other general factors - motives (desire and aversion, pleasure and pain) and structuring forces (organisation, consciousnes and coherence). Perhaps these are those phenomena in the world that most clearly show the effect of the kSetrajJa. My best, Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa, PhD associate professor of philosophy E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Thu Aug 31 03:31:16 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 05:31:16 +0200 Subject: Bhagavadgita, cognition, Buddhism? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061225.23782.17212567529940637255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Perhaps, the expectation is that the whole is >more than the sum of the parts. Equating sa.mghaata with the body + senses rather seems to be making the parts more than the whole: 'A, B, C, D ..., and the complex-of-body-and-senses (sa.mghaata) ... this, in brief, is the body (k.setra).' I still find this meaning implausible. But perhaps we are beginning to exhaust the subject. I am very grateful for your insights and comments, and for those of Ferenc. Thanks again, Martin From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 31 06:16:06 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 06:16:06 +0000 Subject: History of Mughalstan Message-ID: <161227061229.23782.12229544010336903895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos writes : >This thread seems another one that could be on an unfortunate >way to fruitlessness because of superficial and inaccurate >comparisons. I will try to give a different view here. It doesn't look like you're very clear about the subject of discussion. The main point of the argument is not a comparison between Europe and India, but whether the concept of "nations" based on region/language/ethnicity is applicable to India. >In other words: there is not much difference with Europe (with its >various kingdoms and empires), provided that you realise that India >should be compared not with any single European country, but with >Europe as a whole. (I have in fact been arguing this, also in print, >for at least eleven years.) In earlier times, the Europeans had the >Huns and the Turks as common enemies, again on the basis of a >certain civilisational unity. But this did not mean that there were >intra-European differences _on a different level_. Cf. also the >following: Though similarities between Europe and India based on language and culture are to an extent true, still there're glaring differences too, especially with respect to the "nation" concept advocated by Samar. Can you find parallels in India to the notorious enemities in Europe : the Celts/Picts Vs the Anglo Saxons, the English Vs the French, Spain Vs Portugal, Spain Vs England, Prussians Vs their enemies. Each of these peoples have historically identified themselves as seperate nations/people based on language/culture and fought/competed with each other. But such a case is absent in India - for Telugus have never had the Tamils as traditional enemies nor the Kannadigas nursed traditional enemity towards the Marathas or any other particular people based on region/language. Rather it was the dynasties fighting each other - the Tamil Chola had traditional enemity with the Tamil PAndya, the PAndya with the Pallava etc Also when the Marathas ruled ThanjAvur, is there any history of the local Tamils rebelling against them, because they were of a different "nation"? Or did that happen when Telugu NAyak kings or the Vijayanagar kings ruled parts of Tamil Nadu? Whoever the king might be and whatever region he might belong to, for the people it was business as usual and they continued living their normal lives. Would this be possible in Europe? Would the French have tolerated the British as rulers or vice versa? This was possible in India only due to the common civilizational thread underlying all its diversity. Though the king might speak a different language and have his own distinct cultural preferences, still the connecting thread was the dharma which was accepted by all throughout the land. >Let us not forget that there was a Christian dharma across Europe, >and scholars moved around freely using the lingustic medium of the >Latin 'devabhaa.saa'. Given the traditional groupings in Europe based on language/region, what you describe is just an attempt by Christianity to weld together all the nations to form a single whole. The fact that such a thing never succeeded and even today nations identify themselves individually and also exist as independent entities, only points to the insurmountable differences between the peoples in Europe. Unlike this India even today has had very little difficulty in coming together and staying as one single whole. >The real 'problem' in these 'discussions' is that modern India (which >is a British creation, in the sense that at no time prior to the British >period 'India' as a _state_ existed) _cannot_ be culturally compared >with any European state except in a most flimsy manner. Culturally >and historically speaking, India is not a country, but a continent. I'm sure Winston Churchill must be cheering you from the grave! This is the typical colonial attitude which overlooks the extent of Chandragupta's or Ashoka's empire. Prior to them, if one is to go by the evidence as presented in the Puranas and the Ithihaasas, there did exist the concept of a nation as a single whole in India. Though various regions might have been ruled by different kings, still there existed a concept of an emperor/Chakravarti, who would rule the whole of the land assisted by various smaller kings - which is quite logical given the size of the land. That's the reason that the Ashvamedhayaagam occupies a central place in the Kshatriya dharma. And all along the history of India there's always been sustained attempts by kings to achieve this unification. >This is more of the same, viz. another faulty comparison, this one >popularised by Vivekananda, who has done a lot to propagate the >myth of 'spiritual India' vis-?-vis the 'materialist West', where such a >contrast does not really exist; One has only to live in India and America to appreciate this. Maybe such perception is only possible for Indians who "live" their culture. >Even if Samar Abbas' original message looks a little quirky, the >proper response to it is not to ban such questions out of fear of >'secessionism'. I never said that such questions have to be banned. But given the motive behind such claims and lack of supporting evidence for it, it should just be ignored. >Is it not a fact that there have been bloody wars all >over South Asia throughout all of its history, irrespective of what >myth-makers have said about 'spiritual' 'Vedic' tendencies etc.? Why is there this great effort to moralise everything? "Brahmins are evil because they supported the caste system; Buddha was noble because he opposed it". "Vedic civilization is evil because it encouraged wars; Buddhism is noble because it opposed it". That Buddhism perished in India and Marxism never succeeded is enough to show that good intentions alone aren't enough. The true dharma should be practical - it should accomodate the good and the bad. For every law abiding citizen, there're numerous people who're bad - who'd steal, kill, take by force what they wanted if there wasn't the law to prevent them from doing it. For every civilized society there're numerous barbaric ones around, who out of greed and ignorance, would demolish all the ideals that the civilization stood for. A weak king cannot rule nor protect his subjects effectively from enemies. So it is in the interest of the peoples and the civilization itself, that kings and their armies have to constantly be in the enterprise of fighting to further their kingdoms, thereby keeping their martial skills ever sharpened to protect the civilization from marauders. Eventually in the course of such constant warfare, will emerge a leader who would be able to brings all the kings under him and thus protect the civilization as a whole. He too after a period of time would grow weak and again the cycle would again continue for a worthy successor to replace him. And from what we know of history, armies seldom troubled the public and kept the fighting restricted to open grounds and fields well away from the towns and villages. That this scheme didn't ultimately succeed doesn't undermine the original purpose of such a line of thought. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 31 15:19:25 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 08:19:25 -0700 Subject: SV: interesting experience Message-ID: <161227061243.23782.16487436030392676722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Christopher R. King One language, two scripts: the Hindi movement in the nineteenth century North India, 1994, Oxford University Press. Have you visited the Rajarajesvari temple in Rochester? ---------------------- Friends; As an amatuer indologist (and now a laboring sanskrit student) i always pay close attention to all my encounters with Indian culture. This past weekend i was at my local convenience store where the clerk has become a good aquaintence over the past year.( he was born and raised in India) I was telling him of my travel plans for this fall and my intention of learning rudimentary hindi so that i could communicate better when in major cities in the north. His response was immediatly shocking to me. He told me at great length how though most people believe they are speaking hindi, they are actually speaking Urduu. This seems a bit of a rediculous claim considering that none of the hindi liturature i have seen displays an arabic alphabet. so my question is this: is there any value to this claim? Also, is this a reletively common claim? Namaskar Stephen J Brown University of Rochester. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU Thu Aug 31 14:40:39 2000 From: nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU (Naseem Hines) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 09:40:39 -0500 Subject: interesting experience In-Reply-To: <002201c012df$c5af9780$1790d2cc@StevieBaba> Message-ID: <161227061241.23782.13069542437571190699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At conversational level, depending where you are geographically located, Urdu and Hindi are almost the same languages. Only when literature is concerned, Urdu has a great number of vocabulary words that come from the Persian, Arabic, and Turkic languages and Hindi has a great number of Sanskrit words. This is the simplest way, I think, to understand the point of view of your friend. There are a number of volumes written addressing this issue, taking into consideration the historical, social, and political background concerning the development of Urdu and Hindi as two separate languages. Please let me know if you need further information. Naseem Hines. ____________________________ On Wed, 30 Aug 2000, Lambodara wrote: > Friends; > > As an amatuer indologist (and now a laboring sanskrit student) i always pay close attention to all my encounters with Indian culture. This past weekend i was at my local convenience store where the clerk has become a good aquaintence over the past year.( he was born and raised in India) I was telling him of my travel plans for this fall and my intention of learning rudimentary hindi so that i could communicate better when in major cities in the north. His response was immediatly shocking to me. He told me at great length how though most people believe they are speaking hindi, they are actually speaking Urduu. This seems a bit of a rediculous claim considering that none of the hindi liturature i have seen displays an arabic alphabet. so my question is this: is there any value to this claim? Also, is this a reletively common claim? > > Namaskar > > Stephen J Brown > University of Rochester. > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Aug 31 08:47:44 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 10:47:44 +0200 Subject: SV: interesting experience Message-ID: <161227061237.23782.16191466579051475004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lambodara [SMTP:sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU] skrev 31. august 2000 02:10: > > As an amatuer indologist (and now a laboring sanskrit student) i always pay close attention to all my encounters with Indian culture. This past weekend i was at my local convenience store where the clerk has become a good aquaintence over the past year.( he was born and raised in India) I was telling him of my travel plans for this fall and my intention of learning rudimentary hindi so that i could communicate better when in major cities in the north. His response was immediatly shocking to me. He told me at great length how though most people believe they are speaking hindi, they are actually speaking Urduu. This seems a bit of a rediculous claim considering that none of the hindi liturature i have seen displays an arabic alphabet. so my question is this: is there any value to this claim? Also, is this a reletively common claim? There is a "middle form" called Hindustani, which is used by many people. Hindi and Urdu are essentially the same language in the sense that they share a common grammar but are written in different alfabeths and have partly divergent vocabularies, Hindi drawing on Sanskrit and Urdu on Persian and Arabic. The more education a person has, the more Sanskrit (and less Persian/Arabic) or Persian/Arabic (and less Sanskrit) you will find in his language. Uneducated people probably speak versions of Hindi and Urdu that are very close to each other. So your friend is not entirely off the track. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Aug 31 10:48:57 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 10:48:57 +0000 Subject: interesting experience/Urdu/hindi Message-ID: <161227061259.23782.16409086272887404048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, S. Abbas implied that Delhi Sultanate should be regarded as the birth of a new nation in North India because of the birth of Urdu. Then came another inquiry about it. I venture some observations: As is well known Urdu began as a pidgin in the eleventh century with the interaction between urkish, Persian, Arabic and the local Hindi that prevailed at the time. The sufis used it to create their syncretic expression for devotees of mostly the lower classes. Its early literature was a mixture of medieval Hindi, from Dingal to Brij, Avadhi, Punjabi and Mewari etc. The "sufiana kalam" extant today got refurbished in the process of aural transmission and musical performances. Across the Vindhyanchal it developed as "dakkhini". Urdu was never the language of the elite or the masses. It is difficult to convey this bit of linguistic history to modern Indians or even Pakistanis as false stories about languages and scripts are a powerful influence. Many well educated people have to be told that Sanskrit was not always written in Devanagari before the 19th century, but in all the scripts associated with regional languages today. One script for one language is a creation of print technology. Films like Mughle-Azam and a host of tv serials that thrust Persianised Urdu into the mouth of every Muslim character from King to fisherman or chaste Hindi (Sanskrit infested) into the speech of every Hindu , have left no room for linguistic history in the common imagination. The truth is that Urdu was not the official or court language in medieval India except at the sunset of the Mughal empire. The place was occupied mostly by Persian. It had little to do with ruling Turks, Lodis and Moghuls. It grew out of the linguistic trends prevalent in India much before Islamic invasion. Using different languages in a single text or composition is an age old tradition in India. Ancient plays used Sanskrit, Shaurseni, Magadhi etc., all together. Compositions with some lines in Sanskrit and some in Prakrit constituted the "manipravala" style. Sufis carried forward this tradition by mixing lines of Brij and Persian. (continued in next post) Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Aug 31 10:49:08 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 10:49:08 +0000 Subject: interesting experience/urdu/hindi Message-ID: <161227061262.23782.3612230707255291059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (continued from the last post) Centuries later in the twilight of Aurangzeb's rule, dakkhini and khari boli were heavily weighed down by Persian-Arabic vocabulary and imagery to make a style which is regarded as elite or 'adabii' glossary of Urdu. Wali , Mir, Bedil and Dard consolidated this style in Delhi, Insha. Sauda and others in Lukhnow. Further into the nineteenth century when parochialism and ornamentation became rampant in all arts and cross country movement of artists obtaining earlier under Mughal patronage came to an end, Urdu poetry leaned too heavily on Persian. Yet it was not disitinguished generically from Hindi. Dreaming of attaining immortality through his Persian poetry, Ghalib called his vernacular writing "kalame- hindavi" loaded with all the topographic ambivalence of the word "hind". The advent of print marked out Urdu as visually separate. By the end of the last century, the elitist Urdu of the court poets of the last emperor and the Luknawi literati, was slowly given an ethnic connotation by the British historians for whom groups were defined by the building blocks of religion, language, script, food and clothes. In another half a century, the nexus of Islam-Urdu-arabic script-nonvegetarianism-shalwar-kameez was formalised. Urdu was no longer a medium of approaching the new ruling class and its language (now English), or other languages of India as in the past. The westernised Urdu elite , not the lower middle class, now called the shots. Urdu became the medium of constructing modern Muslim identity and also a separate nation. This is evident most in the fact that the Urdu of All India Radio is no different (except for the accent) from that of Radio Pakistan. In both the countries formal Urdu shrinks from contact with Sindhi, Punjabi, Hindi, Gujarati and Marathi. Movement by some writers on both side of the border to make it open and flexible recieves little encouragement. There is hardly any effort to make it more useful in the contemporary scene. What has been forgotten is the force which gave it birth, growth and resilience, namely its erswhile vitality to interact and mix with other languages; its historical usefulness for the lower middle class to communicate with corridors of power and high tradition when rulers prided in Turkish, Persian and Arabic. It is used for political identity construction as for the proposed Mughalistan, (or the new Pakistan ?) when the fact is that what we understand by Urdu nowadays was born after the last of effectual Mughals, Aurangzeb. regards, Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com From boedeker at NETCOLOGNE.DE Thu Aug 31 09:08:11 2000 From: boedeker at NETCOLOGNE.DE (Heike Boedeker) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 11:08:11 +0200 Subject: Inara's revenge (was: Re: History of Mughalstan) In-Reply-To: <200008302302.GIC06018@m1000.netcologne.de> Message-ID: <161227061232.23782.6173289547817393385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:55:53 +0200, Robert Zydenbos replied to Nanda Chandran: >This thread seems another one that could be on an unfortunate >way to fruitlessness because of superficial and inaccurate >comparisons. I think it could be more interesting and fruitful in a sense of trying to have a look at what motivates both history (in the sense of -- please note the scare quotes -- 'political' events) and writing about it, rather than merely insisting on historical adequacy being limited to a desubjectivized/objective account, a bit akin to what Dominik Wujastyk already has pointed out to be an anthropomorphic metaphor (condensation). Of course, also a European sense of "a certain civilisational unity" in the first place is group-phantasmatic, especially in those areas in which, as you mentioned, it is based on othering (not limited to, but, of course, including "common enemies"), e.g. if one reads Il-Khanid correspondences with the Holy See and Philippe le Beau it pretty quickly becomes clear that what Europeans consensually could validate *as* "real" has hardly any Mongol correlate. Of course, realizing how little interested these were in this area on the fringes of Eurasia would have hurt their narcissism still worse. (Like also Alexander Nevskiy in the first place didn't violate political-in-the-sense-of-realia interests, but ones political in the sense of collective phantasmata.) Of course, this still is metaphoric, because what characterizes Medieval European cultural senses of communities hardly is Europe in the sense of a geographical scenery. It also is interesting to observe how this metaphor is internally incoherent in (accounting for) time, like Richter has pointed out how "modern" patterns emerge in Europe somewhen between -60 and -40 K while so many seem to rather stick to "Out of Africa II" myths. (maybe then the Hittites with their love of going native were remarkably wise folks... ;-)) > > Yes, generally speaking this is the way to go. But when, as even the > > Buddha and Manu advise, it is not good to speak even the truth if it > > will lead to harm, what is the point in entertaining Samar's views Harm to whom? In the sense of "upades?o m?rkh?n.?m prakop?ya na s??ntaye 'sti"? ;-) > > which has little truth in it and can only fuel more > > secessionist/divisive tendencies? > >What is the alternative to searching for truth? Locking ourselves up >in mathas, madrasas, seminaries etc., each with his own myth of >'spirituality' ? This may not be everybody's cup of tea. But maybe that of a few, though... who knows, and, still worse, what importance does it bear for whom? To put it with Tiresias, when being dragged to King Oedipus (quoted from memory): "It is terrible to know if it doesn't serve the one who knows; I've been aware of this, but I must have forgotten it, otherwise I wouldn't have come here" ;-) All the best, Heike From zydenbos at GMX.LI Thu Aug 31 09:21:12 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 11:21:12 +0200 Subject: History of Mughalstan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061235.23782.9749780724688017601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I feared, this thread is becoming an excuse for religious propaganda, so I've had enough of it. But I do want to point out a few more tendentious misrepresentations: Am 31 Aug 2000, um 6:16 schrieb nanda chandran: > Robert Zydenbos writes : > > >This thread seems another one that could be on an unfortunate > >way to fruitlessness because of superficial and inaccurate > >comparisons. I will try to give a different view here. > > It doesn't look like you're very clear about the subject of > discussion. The main point of the argument is not a comparison between > Europe and India, but whether the concept of "nations" based on > region/language/ethnicity is applicable to India. Well, I did read in your message: << In Indian history there's not much evidence that *people* identifed themselves as nations like it was in Europe.>> etc. etc. Sorry that I responded to something that you wrote. ;-) > Can you find parallels in India to the notorious enemities in Europe : > the Celts/Picts Vs the Anglo Saxons, the English Vs the French, Spain > Vs Portugal, Spain Vs England, Prussians Vs their enemies. Each of > these peoples have historically identified themselves as seperate > nations/people based on language/culture and fought/competed with each > other. But such a case is absent in India - for Telugus have never had > the Tamils as traditional enemies nor the Kannadigas nursed > traditional enemity towards the Marathas or any other particular > people based on region/language. [...] Don't be too sure, and don't idealise India so quickly. Just have a look at what is happening right now in India: Assam, Kashmir, or a terrorist Tamilian outfit that this very moment demands that Karnataka recognise Tamil as the second official language of Karnataka (spoken by approx. 3% there). > Also when the Marathas ruled ThanjAvur, is there any history of the > local Tamils rebelling against them, because they were of a different > "nation"? Or did that happen when Telugu NAyak kings or the > Vijayanagar kings ruled parts of Tamil Nadu? Whoever the king might be > and whatever region he might belong to, for the people it was business > as usual and they continued living their normal lives. > > Would this be possible in Europe? Would the French have tolerated the > British as rulers or vice versa? Yes: the royal family of the Netherlands is originally German; the royal family of Sweden is originally French; etc. etc. > I'm sure Winston Churchill must be cheering you from the grave! This > is the typical colonial attitude which overlooks the extent of > Chandragupta's or Ashoka's empire. [...] Once upon a time there was the Roman empire too... > >This is more of the same, viz. another faulty comparison, this one > >popularised by Vivekananda, who has done a lot to propagate the myth > >of 'spiritual India' vis-?-vis the 'materialist West', where such a > >contrast does not really exist; > > One has only to live in India and America to appreciate this. Maybe > such perception is only possible for Indians who "live" their culture. I have lived in North America, Europe and in India (16 years of adult life). Perhaps you should learn a bit more about Europe, if not live there, before you make pronouncements about that part of the world and make comparisons with India, if I may make this modest suggestion. Bluff doesn't always work. > >Is it not a fact that there have been bloody wars all > >over South Asia throughout all of its history, irrespective of what > >myth-makers have said about 'spiritual' 'Vedic' tendencies etc.? > > Why is there this great effort to moralise everything? "Brahmins are > evil because they supported the caste system; Buddha was noble because > he opposed it". "Vedic civilization is evil because it encouraged > wars; Buddhism is noble because it opposed it". You did not hear that from me. RZ From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 31 11:37:03 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 11:37:03 +0000 Subject: History of Mughalstan Message-ID: <161227061239.23782.5038521202519543693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >As I feared, this thread is becoming an excuse for religious >propaganda, so I've had enough of it. But I do want to point out a >few more tendentious misrepresentations: Well, you obviously didn't have enough of it. Why make a pretense to prove otherwise? Well, I for one, am hardly interested in religious propaganda. I believe in the old Brahmin ideal which doesn't share religion too easily. But if you seek to misrepresent it, don't expect me to keep silent. >Well, I did read in your message: << In Indian history there's not much evidence that *people* identifed themselves as nations like it was in Europe.>> That was only a comment in passing and was not the main point in the argument. >Don't be too sure, and don't idealise India so quickly. Just have a >look at what is happening right now in India: Assam, Kashmir, or a >terrorist Tamilian outfit that this very moment demands that >Karnataka recognise Tamil as the second official language of >Karnataka (spoken by approx. 3% there). Underline the word "right now". And the people and the regions I'm talking about are exclusively Indic/Hindu - Hindu rulers and subjects. The recent secessionist movements orchastrated by Islamic and Christian interests, are beyond the scope of my argument. >Would this be possible in Europe? Would the French have tolerated the >British as rulers or vice versa? >Yes: the royal family of the Netherlands is originally German; the >royal family of Sweden is originally French; etc. etc. But did they become kings and queens through conquests and did people accept them that way? >Once upon a time there was the Roman empire too... Which was never accepted willingly by the peoples it ruled. >I have lived in North America, Europe and in India (16 years of adult >life). Perhaps you should learn a bit more about Europe, if not live >there, before you make pronouncements about that part of the >world and make comparisons with India, if I may make this modest >suggestion. Bluff doesn't always work. I've lived in Europe for a couple of years and in America for more than four years. Ofcourse I wouldn't be too bold in my pronouncements for there's the ever present risk of too much generalization. But in my opinion the ideals on which the societies in the West rest, are not too conducive to spirituality (atleast spirituality as an Indian would view it - and this is not my individual opinion - 9 out of 10 Indians will say the same thing). And mainstream popular culture is ever widening the gap. >You did not hear that from me. "Is it not a fact that there have been bloody wars all over South Asia throughout all of its history, irrespective of what myth-makers have said about 'spiritual' 'Vedic' tendencies etc.?" _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Aug 31 10:41:27 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 12:41:27 +0200 Subject: SV: interesting experience/Urdu/hindi Message-ID: <161227061272.23782.9059096193069504467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas [SMTP:abbas at IOPB.RES.IN] skrev 1. september 2000 11:35: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, Bharat Gupt wrote: > > Urdu...grew out of the linguistic trends prevalent in India much before > > Islamic invasion. > > So here, we learn that Urdu existed prior to the advent of Muslims (712 > AD). But this is directly contradicted by the theory claiming hat Urdu > formed at the end of the Mughal Empire (18th century) : - Not at all. As as far as I can see, Dr. Bharat Gupt's description of the development of Urdu is essentially correct: Urdu is rooted in older Prakrits, but received influences from a number of other "invading" languages. Which is a perfectly normal linguistic process, the world is positively teeming with languages that have been through this sort of development. The term "Urdu", BTW, comes from the Turkish word "Hordu" (ever heard of the Golden Hord?), meaning military camp. So originally, it was essentially the language of the barracks. The question then becomes: When does urdu become "urdu"? When does the old Prakrit turn into a distinct linguistic formation with a literature? The oldest Urdu literature goes back to the 14th century and was produced in the Deccan. We must assume that there was a "hatching period" before the first preserved literature, so Dr. Gupt's description does not sound altogether unreasonable, even if it is the "official version". This does not mean, however, that the Urdu of 14th century was exactly like the Urdu of the 18th century. Urdu, like other languages, develops. But it is also true that the court language was Persian, the "French" of South Asia. (You may want to compare the situation in Russia: Two hundred years ago, Russian aristocrats hardly spoke Russian. Instead, they used French, the language of culture and prestige!) I am afraid that your critique of Bharat Gupt's Urdu history is not well founded so far. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From shimj at USA.NET Thu Aug 31 15:32:48 2000 From: shimj at USA.NET (JAEKWAN SHIM) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 15:32:48 +0000 Subject: [Re: Inputting Sanskrit Dictionary(Bon-wa Daijiten)] Message-ID: <161227061231.23782.15949243280920191439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Once more on copyright. We surely have to keep(or have possibly been kept in the Buddhist sense :-)) the distance from the ORIGINALITY or creativity a dictionary has, which, however, does not simply comes from the FACT of the exchangeable value of meaning between the two different languages, I think. Jaekwan Shim Dept. of Philosophy Kangnung National Univ. South Korea Dominik Wujastyk wrote: On Sat, 26 Aug 2000, Stephen Hodge wrote: > As far as I know the Bon-Wa Jiten is still copyrighted. As I > understand the situation, unless you have explicit permission from the > publishers, it will be illegal under international copyright law to > publish this electronically -- I assume Korea is a signatory to this > law. It is a breach of copyright law to make the copy in the first place, not just to distribute it. Even in private, for one's own use. Still not legal. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Thu Aug 31 16:28:36 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 17:28:36 +0100 Subject: History of Mughalstan Message-ID: <161227061247.23782.2901970753736986970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Abbas mentions Ashoka's name who was a Bihari ( Magadh Empire ) who killed 150, 000 Oriyas in the Battle of Kalinga . I think, there is only half truth here, is it not ? He converted to buddhism right in the battle after seeing so much of bloodshed . He then, launched massive peace missions across the known world at that time , which is unprecedented in history . He cared not only for humans but also for the animals . Where else can he quote another emperor matching the deeds of Ashoka ? By the way, Ashoka's empire which he inherited from his grand father Chandragupta , who got it from the Nandas, extended into Afghanistan to Karnataka in the south, much bigger than present India . Whose empire in those days lasted for that long ? One has to consider the time ( kala ) when one looks at the size of the empire . Did Alaxander's empire last any where near Ashoka's , in terms of time ? So , where does this discussion lead to ? Thanks. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 31 18:43:57 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 18:43:57 +0000 Subject: History of Mughalstan Message-ID: <161227061255.23782.8377158299808622765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >- Jews and Brahmins: The only all-European community are the Jews who form >5-10% of the population; the only all-Indian community are the Brahmins >who likewise form 5-10% of the population. Both also attempted to increase >their IQ by discarding their own low-IQ members into the mainstream, and >marrying high-IQ persons outside their community. Neither are warrior >communities; they monopolised intellectual fields. Three major scientific problems - 1. It is highly anachronistic to apply the notion of IQ to peoples who did not think of such a thing, at a time when nobody in the world ever thought of such a thing. 2. The assumption that intelligence, like the color of the skin, is an inherited trait, is profoundly unfounded. The only people who will support your stand are the authors of The Bell Curve, who would make for very strange bedfellows. In case you don't realize it, your argument takes you down a very slippery slope. 3. There is an internal contradiction involved. Surely, you must hold that varNa rules were strictly enforced, as they had to be, if the socially powerful status of the Brahmana and the Kshatriya had to be maintained. If so, marrying "high-IQ" people from outside the immediate community could not have been possible. In case you didn't know, manu and others delight in giving detailed lists of what castes the offspring of mixed marriages should be assigned to. A fourth, social issue - There never was a time when Jews were not persecuted in Europe. A rather strong case can be made that Nazi anti-Semitism was only the logical culmination of centuries of European ill-feeling against the Jews. Not so with Brahmanas in India. Blaming Brahmanas for all India's social ills is a rather recent development. Best, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From tawady at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 31 18:35:16 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 19:35:16 +0100 Subject: History of Mughalstan Message-ID: <161227061253.23782.11951546973463149711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 17:28:36 +0100, Anand M. Sharan wrote: >By the way, Ashoka's empire which he inherited from his grand father >Chandragupta , who got it from the Nandas, extended into Afghanistan to >Karnataka in the south, much bigger than present India . But Tamil Nadu and Kerala were never part of any pan Indian ?empires? till the advent of British Raj, hence the current apprehensions in the current Delhi ?durbar? regarding the credentials of ?Indian? Tamils as Indians reflected in their foreign policy decisions with respect to Sri Lanka (atleast) and also in many a discussions in this forum between those with pan Indian ?credentials? and with Tamil identity. Raveen From Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO Thu Aug 31 17:56:02 2000 From: Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 19:56:02 +0200 Subject: History of Mughalstan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061251.23782.14579692725796837667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Abbas wrote: >- Jews and Brahmins: The only all-European community are the Jews who form >5-10% of the population; the only all-Indian community are the Brahmins >who likewise form 5-10% of the population. The Jews do not form 5-10% of the population of Europe. Even before the Holocaust, the Jews hardly made up for such a high percentage. >Both also attempted to increase >their IQ by discarding their own low-IQ members into the mainstream, and >marrying high-IQ persons outside their community. Neither are warrior >communities; they monopolised intellectual fields. Jews have never monopolised intellectual fields in Europe, they have in fact contributed substantial. F.Mendelsohn, S.Freud, A.Einstein and J.Derrida are wellknown representatives for the latter, not the former. Jon Skarpeid From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Thu Aug 31 19:42:29 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 20:42:29 +0100 Subject: History of Mughalstan Message-ID: <161227061257.23782.9491547578671230595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Raveen: I only wrote that his empire extended upto Karnataka, and did not say that it extended further south in the Indian Peninsula . As a matter of fact, he himself went to see his son and daughter off to Karnataka, who were sent to Sri Lanka on a peace mission. I wish every one followed Ashoka's philosophy and we did not have bloodshed . I am quite sure that majority of historians including those who can qualify to be in Delhi Durbar, would know where Ashoka's empire extended to. I am not one of those. Thanks. Anand M. Sharan From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Thu Aug 31 16:03:37 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 21:33:37 +0530 Subject: History of Mughalstan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227061245.23782.5126869583157392823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Robert Zydenbos wrote: > [T]here is not much difference with Europe (with its various > kingdoms and empires...I have in fact been arguing this ... > for at least eleven years. The common features between Europe and South Asia are indeed many: - SIZE: Each nation-state in India is roughly the same size (both population and area) as those of Europe. Thus, there are 50 mill. Telugus, and 50 mill. Frenchmen, while Gujarat is as big as Spain etc. - HISTORY: The nations of South Asia are older than the European ones. Thus Gujarat is mentioned in the 2nd century as `Gurjara-desha'; while France arose after the collapse of the Carolingian Empire much after the 6th century. Likewise, we have Vanga -> Bengal; Malayala -> Malayalam-Desh; Utkala -> Orissa; etc. - JANAPADA: The very word `Janapada' may be translated as `ethnic nation-state'; it proves the concept of European nation was general. - Napoleon and Ashoka: For a short while, militarised states could annex neighbouring territories. The Mauryan Empire lasted for barely one century; the Hapsburg lasted for three. Just as most peoples saw Napoleon's empire as `occupied territories'; the peoples under Ashoka did so too. They broke up when the nations reasserted themselves. - Jews and Brahmins: The only all-European community are the Jews who form 5-10% of the population; the only all-Indian community are the Brahmins who likewise form 5-10% of the population. Both also attempted to increase their IQ by discarding their own low-IQ members into the mainstream, and marrying high-IQ persons outside their community. Neither are warrior communities; they monopolised intellectual fields. Thus, nanda chandran wrote: > The thread was strong enough for brahmins down the ages to migrate to > newer places *inside* Bhaaratvarsha and ... to spread the Vedic dharma. In order to defend the concept of a monolithic nation-state, recourse must always be had to Brahmanic civilization as this alone is the sole "common thread" present in South Asia. However, this is an outside superposition upon the various ethnic nations of South Asia - "Brahmanisation" occurred in the post-Buddhist phase. However, trying to justify a common nationhood because 5% Brahmins share a common culture is analogous to trying to justify a common European nationhood because the 5 % Jews share a common culture. The fact that Jews in Poland and England share a common language and religion does not imply a common historicity; likewise the fact that Nanda Chandran's "Brahmins down the ages" settled across India had an effect analogous to the settling of Jews across Europe. nanda chandran wrote: > Can you find parallels in India to the notorious enemities in Europe : > the Celts/Picts Vs the Anglo Saxons, the English Vs the French, ... Ashoka (Magadhi or Bihari) slaughtered 150,000 Oriyas (`Kalinga'), then there are Veerapan, etc. > Would the French have tolerated the British as rulers or vice versa? Remember Joan of Arc ? The English ruled Calais for 900 years. Samar. From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Aug 31 23:11:26 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 23:11:26 +0000 Subject: SV: interesting experience/Urdu/hindi Message-ID: <161227061295.23782.6571685185395500064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Which is a perfectly normal linguistic process, the world is > positively teeming with languages that have been through this sort of > development. The term "Urdu", BTW, comes from the Turkish word "Hordu" > (ever heard of the Golden Hord?), meaning military camp. So originally, it > was essentially the language of the barracks. Dr. Fosse has brought out in a more accurate manner the principle of interdependence and mixing that medieval Indian liguistic situation displayed, and as I believe has been the norm in India always, anaadikaalen. But the linguistic development in this period was governed by a singular fact that the invading Ghaznavite, Turkish and Tamurite Hordus/hordes had only some royal women and a limited number of female dancers, musicians and prostitutes. After these soldiers settled in India they took to Indian women and their progeny could not have spoken anything else but the synchronic language/dialect of the Indian region laden with persian-arabic words. Thus as RB said, Urdu could not be a Turkish or Persian creole. (This of course is different from the Pakistani official version that the Arabs, Turks etc., "gave" a new tongue Urdu to the subcontinent and which did not "develop" in India. But putting aside the needs to choose between "gave" and "develop" which are really the political needs of Pakistan and India as nation states, the historical facts speak for themeselves. If I have time I shall post texts from Farid Ganj Shakar to Ghalib to show how urdu/hindavii changed from 12th to 19th cent. AD.) Regardng this growth, it may also be noted that as early as by the end of the thirteenth century there developed a class of neo-muslims and mongrel aristocrats, typified by Amir Khusro (whose mother was a converted Hindu from Etah, Agra) of Sufi and Shia persuation, who lacked blue blood, in fact, were looked down upon by the "pure" invading class, but who began asserting the importance of Hindustan in their writings as a counter to the Sunni Turkocentric elite. Also consider the fact that with the huge influx of Indian slaves (more women and children then men) in Afghani and Iranian markets, some degree of linguistic, musical, sartorial and culinary impact must have taken place in the Ottoman Empire and its sorroundings. I shall be thankful to learn of some studies in this area from list members. Not only the establishment of Islamic invaders but also their their mind-set before reaching India needs to studied in detail. best Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com From harunaga.isaacson at ORIENTAL-STUDIES.OXFORD.AC.UK Wed Aug 2 17:36:49 2000 From: harunaga.isaacson at ORIENTAL-STUDIES.OXFORD.AC.UK (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 00 18:36:49 +0100 Subject: vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam revisited In-Reply-To: <001601bffca4$19535130$b5c6e584@zca002.let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227060540.23782.12178990013967691029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam (much quoted and employed in modern publications e.g. > of the VHP): > does it or does it not occur in any other ancient/classical Sanskrit (not to > speak of Vedic) text except the Hitopadesa 1.3 -- where this phrase is used > in a mean and deceitful way? > Is anyone aware of its occurrence in Manusmrti or elsewhere? Any concrete > references (or references to an electronic Manusmrti if it exists) will be > appreciated. No doubt others with more time and more books to hand than I can provide more exhaustive answers. I just happen to have been reading the Subhaa.sitaratnako.sa, Vidyaakara's early anthology, recently. Subhaa.sitaratnako.sa (ed. Kosambi and Gokhale) 1241 (verse 29 of the sadvrajyaa, and indeed as you will see their is no question of meanness or deceit here): aya.m nija.h paro veti ga.nanaa laghucetasaam udaaracaritaanaa.m tu vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam This verse is quoted in several Ala.mkaara"saastra works too. The only precise reference I have at hand as I write is Bhoja's "S.r"ngaaraprakaa"sa (new ed. by V. Raghavan, part 1. [can Michael Witzel or anyone tell us when we can expect the rest? I for one am very eagerly looking forward to it] Harvard 1998, Harvard Oriental Series 53)) where you will find the verse quoted on p. 405. It is apparently sometimes attributed to Udbha.ta, sometimes to Ke"sa.ta. The expression indeed does not occur in the Manusm.rti (An electronic text of Manu input and proofread by M. Yano and Y. Ikari is publicly available, and you can find it e.g. through following the link for Virtual Archive of Indic e-texts on the INDOLOGY home-page). Best wishes, Harunaga Isaacson Oxford/Hamburg From harunaga.isaacson at ORIENTAL-STUDIES.OXFORD.AC.UK Fri Aug 4 14:01:48 2000 From: harunaga.isaacson at ORIENTAL-STUDIES.OXFORD.AC.UK (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 15:01:48 +0100 Subject: vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam revisited In-Reply-To: <006301bffe10$3c54de70$b5c6e584@zca002.let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227060583.23782.5255025849467147266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 4 Aug 2000, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > 3. Even as a relatively early anthology the Subhaa.sitaratnako.sa of > Vidyaakara has been attributed to ca. 1100 by Ingalls. As is well known, in > the course of time Subhaa.sitas easily enter and leave anthologies; there > are more than 800 candidates for the "three centuries" of Bhartrhari (among > them, again, our verse aya.m nija.h ... vasudhaiva ku.tumbakam; Levi in 1922 > also referred to Bhartrhari in connection with this vers; it is no. 376 in > D.D. Kosambi's 1948 critical edition). > We enter here a very tricky area, but the Hitopadeza occurrence -- though > the Hit. is relatively late in the Brhatkathaa-Pancatantra-tradition -- > could just as well be earlier than the Subhaa.sitaratnako.sa occurrence. In > the translation volume of the Subhaa.sitaratnako.sa Ingalls writes > "Pancatantra, Hitopadeza, etc." next to the verse in question (no. 1241), > apparently suggesting that these were (among) the earlier sources from which > the verse (could have been/) was taken. It seems that Houben is suggesting that the verse might be a relatively late addition to the Subhaa.sitaratnako.sa. It should be remembered that one of the reasons why the Subhaa.sitaratnako.sa is a very valuable source is that the principal MS of it is an old one, which was photographed by Saa"nk.rtyaayana in Tibet. The editors place it (admittedly on palaeographical grounds alone) at around A.D. 1150. I don't have the book to hand now though: the old MS is incomplete and therefore its evidence is not available for all, though it is for the greater part, of the collection. If Houben wishes (us) to believe that the Hitopade"sa occurrence has a significant chance of being earlier than that in the SRK (`just as well...') it would be of importance for him whether it is available here. As I mentioned in a previous post, the verse is also quoted in Bhoja's "S.r"ngaaraprakaa"sa (where, as so often, no author or work from which it has been taken is named). Houben's post does not refer to the question of the dating of this work (nor indeed at all to this occurrence of the verse). I believe that it is usually assigned, without controversy, to the first half of the 11th century. Of course Houben may wish to argue that that dating might be wrong (though almost certainly not by much; I seem to remember that there are some testimonia and references to the work that would preclude that) or that the verse might have been interpolated. It seems really to be unlikely that the Hitopade"sa is the first text in which the verse occurs. (Perhaps someone with more books and time available than I have at present can tell us of other attestations earlier than or roughly contemporary with the "S.r"ngaaraprakaa"sa; it would not surprise me if there are some.) And I see no reason to think that whoever composed it had any cynical intention. Harunaga Isaacson Hamburg/Groningen