From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 1 05:03:44 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 99 22:03:44 -0700 Subject: P. Chowdhury Message-ID: <161227051759.23782.9471866300411278610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V. Iyer wrote: Would like to know the details on a book by Chowdhury so that I can place an order. The book title is something like "The Indian origin of the Chinese Nation". Vishal responds: I have read two books authored by him (but not the volume on China). The sole merit of his work lies in the fact that it is the best anthology of statements and facts which expose the racial and Judeo-Christian biases of Caldwell, Weber, Cowell etc. Other than that, I would not spend my money and time on his works. The 'Out of India' school too does not take cognizance of his works and I have not found 1 quotation from P. Chaudhary's books in their works. Incidently, a recent work moves a step further in questioning the prejudices of modern Indologists like Erdosy, Dr. Witzel et al (I can email a detailed reference to you personally if you wish) and the authors claim to have witnessed excavations in Central Asia, where they were dismayed to discover the pre-conceived notions and the unscientific handling of data by the archaeologists and Indologists. Otherwise, this book too resembles Pramesh Chaudhary's works in its methodology. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 1 05:24:49 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 99 22:24:49 -0700 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227051761.23782.17468491794973610883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Respected Dr. Thomspon, A very detailed point to point response was sent to you privately, with cc: to Drs. Vassilcov/Swantham. Copies can be sent to other list members upon request. To comment on just one statement in your post: GT: "Rajaram, put some facts on the table. Then let us debate them." VA: Why not check the archives of this very list using the following names: 1. Vidynath 2. SNS 3. kalyan 4. Ebryant 5. raoul Your responses to their literally dozens of objections have been either non-existent or non-academic or untenable. Apparently, you are unfamiliar with opposing views. For a start, please refer the following websites: 1. Koenraad Elst's Indology Website (Read the articles section--a rebuttal of Sergent's work etc. ) http://members.xoom/koenraadElst 2. http://www.sumsar.com/waves/ 3. Dr. Rajaram's Homepage http://members.tripod.com/nsrajaram/kalidas.html 4. Archives at: http://sarasvati.listbot.com 5. http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/aryan 6. http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient_history.html This should be good for a start. And do not dismiss these as 'Propaganda' and rather give academic responses. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 1 05:49:39 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 99 22:49:39 -0700 Subject: Response to Dr. Vassilkov (August 99' Archives, Post # 28) Message-ID: <161227051763.23782.3107295976439560114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Vassilkov, I had earlier privately email you a very detailed and point to point response with a cc: to Dr. Thompson. List members can request a copy of the same from if they wish. I add the following two points here: 1. ON DR. KOENRAAD ELST: He is not affiliated to any Univ. right now, though apart from his PhD. in Indology, he has degrees in Philosophy and Sinilogy. Ever since he reaped the whirlwind by questioning the methods and findings of the Indian Academic Establishment in the Ayodhya Controversy (where he asseerts that of course there was a temple and of course it was destroyed by Islamic Iconoclasm), he has abandoned all hope of getting an academic position and now ekes out a living as an independent scholar and columnist. The questioning of the AIT (not M. Mueller's but say Romila Thapar's) is almost entirely the work of outsiders: either non-Academics like K D Sethna, Bhagwan Singh, Shrikant Talegiri, David Frawley and Natwar Jha; or academics working outside their own field like Mathematicians Subhask Kak and N S Rajaram; or academics out in the cold like Dr. Elst himself. It is only recently that top ranking academics like Archaeologist B B Lal (once a pro-invasionist polemicist) have joined them. Note that Dr. Elst has just published a lengthy discussion of Bernard Sergent's pro-invasion arguments at the website: http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ 2. ON THE FAME OF ROMILA THAPAR ET AL: I think that here you are quite out of touch with the ground realities and the Truth here. Please read the book 'Eminent Historians' by Arun Shourie. The Leftist Historians published a totally irrelevant abusive response to this book which is reviewed again by Dr. Elst at his website. Long extracts from the book were available on the net but the link does not work. But you might try a search with words 'shourie' AND 'ICHR' or 'Romila'. Again, dont just dismiss this search saying that it is a 'Hindutva' site--it will not befit a scholar like you and would be non-academic ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Wed Sep 1 01:17:42 1999 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 99 06:47:42 +0530 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227051756.23782.14415011432905743827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr.Thompson, Thank you for saying what I have been thinking to say.Let me repeat: I for one am eager to advance reseach in my field. How much time should I > waste on this sort of uninformed ethnocentric rant? > > Rajaram, put some facts on the table. Then let us debate them. Unfortunately what is going on in the name of research in our Universities mostly is such junk. With regards K.Maheswaran Nair Professor Department of Sanskrit University of Kerala Trivandrum ---------- > From: George Thompson > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) > Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 9:31 AM > > It seems to me that if Rajaram wants us to take him seriously, he should > start, finally, now that the rest of us are preparing for the next > milllennnium, to make his entry into the twentieth century. Why does he keep > on harping on an out of date scholar like poor Max Mueller.? Or even older > Sir Wm. Jones? How long will it take Rajaram to enter the twentieth century? > How long is it polite for the rest of us to wait for him to catch up with the > rest of us? The repetition in these arguments is nothing if not tedious. We > keep on rebuting the silly arguments that he poses. Hoiw much longer must we > endure the waste of time involved in restuing his banalities over and over > and over again? And what about the accompanying insults? How long shall we > bite our tongues while this sort of charlatan persaudes all of India that it > is Atlantis all over again? > > I for one am eager to advance reseach in my field. How much time should I > waste on this sort of uninformed ethnocentric rant? > > Rajaram, put some facts on the table. Then let us debate them. > > How can this review be called an 'update' when it says nothing, absolutely > nothing, about what has gone on in the AIT debate over the past hundred > years? > > Let the list see what kind of opponent stands before us. > > George Thompson From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 1 15:05:01 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 99 08:05:01 -0700 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051775.23782.17416193603462969137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H. Bechert, The date of the Buddha reconsidered, Indologia Taurinensia, 1982, 11, p. 29-36 gives the summary that, based on several Japanese scholars' work, the Buddha's parinirvana is around 350 B.C. This date of the Buddha (350 BCE) is basically correct since L. Cousins' review on Buddha's date on Indology web also takes it to be 400 BCE. Probably to be little more conservative. Scholars assumed a date of 600 BCE just one or two dacades ago. Will this bringing forward of the Buddha's times by a minimum of two centuries have a bearing on the date of the Rig Veda? Ie., the RV's age can be younger by atleast two centuries? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From GthomGt at CS.COM Wed Sep 1 14:04:10 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 99 10:04:10 -0400 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227051770.23782.5591660891308882622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I would like to apologize for the sloppy post that I sent to the list the other day. I am dealing with a new e-mail program which seems to automatically send mails that I have previously saved. My response to the Rajaram book review thus was sent accidentally. I had intended to proofread it the following morning, and also to tone it down if it seemed to be too abrasive. Perhaps it was Dominik who once recommended that participants in heated disputes should restrain themselves from sending off rapid-fire posts to the list. That is good advice which I am trying to observe. Now we encounter another flurry of posts from Mr Agarwal, which I suppose I am partially responsible for. I apologize for that too. I am not going to participate in this round of the endless AIT debate, because it seems utterly, hopelessly, intractable. I am aware of a new collective effort to respond to the indigenous Aryan theorists, which should soon be published. I was invited to particiapte in that joint effort. But I declined to do so, because, frankly, I take much more pleasure in reading Vedic than I do in visiting the websites of Rajaram, Kalyanaraman et al [and I *have* taken the trouble to visit them]. Presently I am working on Vedic and Avestan material suggesting that mutual knowledge existed between these two communities. The effort involves close examination of many passages in both traditions. This is the kind of work that I prefer to do, and which I think will result in a better understanding of the precise relationship between the two. I also believe that it is through such work alone [not just by philologists but archaeologists as well, of course] that speculations about prehistory can gain some degree of credibility. So, best wishes to Mr. Agarwal, whose industriousness I admire. George Thompson From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 1 17:38:10 1999 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 99 10:38:10 -0700 Subject: Data on "Hindutva" sites Message-ID: <161227051779.23782.17132446102024281712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will support Vishal Agarwal's plea to "mainstream" indologists that they should not dismiss data or information relevant to indology merely because it also appears on so-called "hindutva" sites. Will they, for instance, dismiss work of Barbara S. Miller simply because she misinterpreted one painting?(cf Fred Smith's post of August 31 on the subject of "A question for RISA and Indology). ST ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Wed Sep 1 09:49:03 1999 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 99 11:49:03 +0200 Subject: Place and year of a remark by Kielhorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227051766.23782.17918335869350785919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 31 Aug 99, at 17:32, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > In the introduction to his edn and tr of Naage;sa's or Naagoji-bha.t.ta's > Paribhaa.sendu-;sekhara, Lorenz Franz Kielhorn made the following > (important) remark according to the second edn (by K.V. Abhyankar) of the > same work, in which the remark is reproduced: "It is sad to see the number > of great ;saastriis, [...] > Did K make the remark quoted above in 1871 when the first fascicule > of part II appeared (one would expect the introduction to be at the > beginning) or did he make it in an introduction that appeared only > in the last fascicule of part II? Could anyone with access to K's > original edn clarify the situation for me and also specify the > pages on which that remark appears? Kielhorn?s remark appears on pp. xxiv-xxv of the ``Preface" to ``Part II" of his edition (reading ``Hinduu antiquity" instead of ``Hindu antiquity" and ``European Sansk.rit" instead of ``European Sanskrit") which seems to have been published separately in 1874 with a new title page: ``The Paribhaashendu"sekhara of Naagojiibha.t.ta." Edited and explained by F. Kielhorn. Part II. Translation and Notes. Bombay 1874 (the ``Preface" itself is dated ``Deccan College, March 1874"). The title page of "Part I" runs: ``The Paribhaashendu"sekhara of Naagojiibha.t.ta." Edited and explained by F. Kielhorn. Part I. The Sansk.rt Text and Various Readings. Bombay 1868. (= Bombay Sanskrit Series. No. II.). The title pages of the separatly published fascicles of ``Part II" run: -- ``The Paribhaashendu"sekhara of Naagojiibha.t.ta." Edited and explained by F. Kielhorn. Part II. Translation and Notes (Paribhaashaas I.-XXXVII.). Bombay 1871. (= Bombay Sanskrit Series. No. VII.). -- ``The Paribhaashendu"sekhara of Naagojiibha.t.ta." Edited and explained by F. Kielhorn. Part II. Translation and Notes (Paribhaashaas XXXVIII.-LXIX..). Bombay 1873. (= Bombay Sanskrit Series. No. IX.). -- -- ``The Paribhaashendu"sekhara of Naagojiibha.t.ta." Edited and explained by F. Kielhorn. Part II. Translation and Notes (Paribhaashaas LXX.-CXXII.). Bombay 1874. (= Bombay Sanskrit Series. No. XII.). The copy of the book which we have in our library is a single volume (certainly bound together at a later date): The first page says: ``Bombay Sanskrit Series. Nos. VII., IX., and XII. Naagojiibha.t.ta?s Paribhaashendu"sekhara", followed by the title page of the apparently last published piece of ``Part II" , viz., the ``Preface" mentioned above. The actual work begins in our binding after the ``Preface" (to Part II, 1874) with ``Part I", followed by the three fascicles of ``Part II" (each having its own title page mentioning the respective Paribhaa.saas after the page giving the series number). It is obvious that the title page of ``Part II" (and the above mentioned preceding page with the series numbers VII., IX., and XII.) is to be a substitute for all the earlier published title pages of the fascicles belonging to ``Part II". That is why it does not mention numbers of any paribhaa.saas, in contrast to the title pages of the fascicles. With kind regards, Roland Steiner From kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Sep 1 21:14:44 1999 From: kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal Raj Adhikary) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 99 14:14:44 -0700 Subject: New Positions at Asian Studies, UT Austin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227051781.23782.15933891035287346931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Yesterday, I had sent one ad with a URL. That URL is changed, so I am sending it again. The nature of the ad is that same though. I apologize for the inconvenience. POSITION IN SOUTH ASIAN STUDIES at The University of Texas at Austin The Department of Asian Studies at the University of Texas at Austin is recruiting for a tenure-track position, rank open, in its South Asian Studies Program. The candidate needs to have a Ph.D. in hand by the time of appointment. We are looking for a scholar focusing on the classical period in India (ancient/medieval) in the Brahmanical/Hindu, Buddhist, or Jain traditions. The candidate needs to have demonstrated teaching and research ability or potential with a high level of proficiency in Sanskrit and a commitment to excellence in the classroom as well as to ongoing research. The successful applicant will complement existing departmental strengths in South Asian literature, history, religion, anthropology, art history, music, and political science. Teaching duties will include Sanskrit, Indian religious and cultural history, and specialized undergraduate and graduate courses in the areas of the candidate's specialty. The University of Texas has a National Resource Center for South Asia funded by the U.S. Department of Education under Title VI. Please send a letter of interest, current CV, three letters of reference, recent papers/publications, and relevant syllabi drafts to: South Asia Search Committee Department of Asian Studies, WCH 4.134 University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas 78712-1194 The closing date for applications is November 22, 1999. An AA/EEO employer. POSITION IN JAPANESE STUDIES The University of Texas at Austin The Department of Asian Studies at The University of Texas at Austin is recruiting for a tenure track position in its Japan program at the level of assistant professor. The candidate needs to have a Ph.D. in hand by the time of appointment. We are looking for a person trained in the humanities, having an emphasis on Japan's premodern culture and literature. The candidate needs to have demonstrated teaching and research ability or potential. The successful applicant will complement existing departmental strengths in 20th-century Japanese literature, cultural anthropology, history, and political science, and be committed to excellence in the classroom as well as to ongoing research. Teaching duties will be divided between the area of the candidate's specialty and upper-division language teaching. Please send a letter of interest, current CV, three letters of reference, recent papers/publications, and relevant syllabi drafts to: Japan Search Committee Department of Asian Studies, WCH 4.134 The University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas 78712-1194 The closing date for applications is January 15, 2000. An AA/EEO employer _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Asian Studies,UT, Austin Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu _________________________________________________ Where are the songs of Spring? Ay, where are they? Think not of them, thou hast thy music too,___ From kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Sep 1 21:30:30 1999 From: kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal Raj Adhikary) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 99 14:30:30 -0700 Subject: New Positions at Asian Studies, UT Austin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227051783.23782.15414504366355130390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Yesterday, I had posted one of the following ads at a different URL. That URL has been changed, so I am sending the ads and the new URL. I apologize for the inconvenience it may have caused. POSITION IN SOUTH ASIAN STUDIES at The University of Texas at Austin The Department of Asian Studies at the University of Texas at Austin is recruiting for a tenure-track position, rank open, in its South Asian Studies Program. The candidate needs to have a Ph.D. in hand by the time of appointment. We are looking for a scholar focusing on the classical period in India (ancient/medieval) in the Brahmanical/Hindu, Buddhist, or Jain traditions. The candidate needs to have demonstrated teaching and research ability or potential with a high level of proficiency in Sanskrit and a commitment to excellence in the classroom as well as to ongoing research. The successful applicant will complement existing departmental strengths in South Asian literature, history, religion, anthropology, art history, music, and political science. Teaching duties will include Sanskrit, Indian religious and cultural history, and specialized undergraduate and graduate courses in the areas of the candidate's specialty. The University of Texas has a National Resource Center for South Asia funded by the U.S. Department of Education under Title VI. Please send a letter of interest, current CV, three letters of reference, recent papers/publications, and relevant syllabi drafts to: South Asia Search Committee Department of Asian Studies, WCH 4.134 University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas 78712-1194 The closing date for applications is November 22, 1999. An AA/EEO employer. POSITION IN JAPANESE STUDIES The University of Texas at Austin The Department of Asian Studies at The University of Texas at Austin is recruiting for a tenure track position in its Japan program at the level of assistant professor. The candidate needs to have a Ph.D. in hand by the time of appointment. We are looking for a person trained in the humanities, having an emphasis on Japan's premodern culture and literature. The candidate needs to have demonstrated teaching and research ability or potential. The successful applicant will complement existing departmental strengths in 20th-century Japanese literature, cultural anthropology, history, and political science, and be committed to excellence in the classroom as well as to ongoing research. Teaching duties will be divided between the area of the candidate's specialty and upper-division language teaching. Please send a letter of interest, current CV, three letters of reference, recent papers/publications, and relevant syllabi drafts to: Japan Search Committee Department of Asian Studies, WCH 4.134 The University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas 78712-1194 The closing date for applications is January 15, 2000. An AA/EEO employer The above ads are posted at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/pages/announce.html Thanks. _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Asian Studies,UT, Austin Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu _________________________________________________ Where are the songs of Spring? Ay, where are they? Think not of them, thou hast thy music too,___ From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Wed Sep 1 11:35:27 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 99 15:35:27 +0400 Subject: Answer to Mr. Ararwal Message-ID: <161227051768.23782.11053213013219366426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Wed Sep 1 14:33:40 MSD 1999 Dear Mr Agarwal, sorry, but I can not answer both your brief posting on the list and the large private one: this is the single answer to both. I have a lot of work at the moment and there is no time to oppose all your arguments. I think that there is also no sense to do it. If you prefer to believe in Vedic Harappans, common origin of Sanskrit and Dravidian, "astronomical date of the MahAbhArata" and all that set of pseudo-patriotic fantasies, I am afraid no argumented objections will make you change your mind. It is a matter of quasi-religious belief, not of scholarly differences. Thank you very much for your frank admittance of the fact that except the marginal example of Dr. Elst (whose chief contribution to Indian studies is constituted, as it seems, by his support of the Hindutva point of view in the Ayodhya controversy) all other protagonists of the "Anti-AIT" or "Out of India" theory are not Indologists, but diletanti. You also wrote in one of your letters that Rajaram's book is a popular book addressed to non-specialists. So I simply can not understand: why do you try so insistently to propagate your views on the INDOLOGY professional list, where they have no chances to meet a positive responce? You gallantly warned George Thompson that "in the interest of his own self preservation" he should not use "pejorative terms" in relation to the creators of "Anti-AIT" theory, because this theory is very popular in India now. For me the popularity of such views in India is a real psychological mystery. Here, in Russia it is said in our schoolbooks that Ancient Slavs, our forefathers, came to the territory of European Russia in 5th-6th centuries CE (before that the country had been populated by Iranians, Finno-Ugrians and other ethnic groups). By the way, neither in the first written sources in Old Russian, which appear in IX-X centuries, nor in folklore there is no mention of the migration which took place only several centuries earlier! But what I want to say is this: I can not understand why should I (or any other Russian) want to question the fact of the migration? Why should I want to rebel against all historical, linguistic and archaeological data in order to assert that Russians lived on this land for many millenia and created in times immemorial most developed civilization on earth? This is not to say that there are not in Russia some people who really believe such things (among their inventions there is, by the way, the most ancient esoterical "Russian Veda") - but, thank God, such people are not welcomed at scholarly forums or at the Universities here. They open their own web-sites, publish articles in the tabloids and make speeches at the meetings of people who blame for the sufferings of Russia all foreigners - from the West, East or South (to the North there are only Polar bears!). But not in the Universities. Not in schools. And it is a great pity, if the situation in India is different. Best regards Yaroslav Vassilkov From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Sep 1 13:45:36 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 99 15:45:36 +0200 Subject: SV: Answer to Mr. Ararwal Message-ID: <161227051773.23782.12516338723126201567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov [SMTP:yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU] skrev 01. september 1999 13:35: > You [Mr. Agrawal] gallantly warned George Thompson that "in the interest of his own > self preservation" he should not use "pejorative terms" in relation to the > creators of "Anti-AIT" theory, because this theory is very popular in India > now. This strikes a new chord! Could Mr. Agrawal please be more precise. Is Dr. Thompson's life or health threatened if he uses "pejorative terms" in relation to the creators of the "Anti-AIT" theory? Furthermore, is this a non-specific, general warning, or is Mr. Agrawal here acting on behalf of specific persons who want to suppress the debate by frightening Westerners who oppose their pseudo-scientific theories? Given the turn this debate has taken, I will insist that all further exchanges between myself and Mr. Agrawal will take place in public, and I will publish any private mails that contain direct or indirect threats. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Sep 2 04:01:54 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 99 21:01:54 -0700 Subject: Answer to Mr. Ararwal Message-ID: <161227051777.23782.6195784111665499309.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Yaroslav V. Vassilkov" wrote: > Thank you very much for your frank admittance of the fact that except > the marginal example of Dr. Elst (whose chief contribution to Indian studies > is constituted, as it seems, by his support of the Hindutva point of view in > the Ayodhya controversy) all other protagonists of the "Anti-AIT" or > "Out of India" theory are not Indologists, but diletanti. That may be true of the "Out of India" theory but there are many scholars who question the "Aryan Invasion" theory. These include, of course, the convergence theorists. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Sep 2 06:19:17 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 02:19:17 -0400 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227051786.23782.4349283125880306017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I fully agree with Dr. Thorp. In the following postings, I shall discuss the reasons for my criticism of Sumathi Ramaswamy's work. In her book, Ramaswamy says that in the analysis of social science scholarship preceding hers, p. 8 One would hope that she would provide a history of such a loyalty towards Tamil. But she also says, p. 10 Having defined Tamil devotion as having Tamil as the "primary site of attachment", among the groups of people with "primary" attachment to Tamil, she includes those whom she calls neo-Shaivites. The problem is she also says, p.33 Given that Tamil was not the "primary" site of attachment for the neo-Shaivites, what type of language attachment is she studying? In her desire to write the Tamil question differently, she has failed to study objectively the history of attachment to Tamil before colonialism, as we shall see. Regards S. Palaniappan From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Thu Sep 2 12:05:31 1999 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 05:05:31 -0700 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051804.23782.17309165582777308986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >THE BIG BAND >WHICH BROUGHT THIS COSMOS INTO CREATION ! I have heard of the cosmos being compared to a great symphony, but I didn't think that any mythologies had developed around the idea. Perhaps Tommy Dorsey just hit OM on his clarinet so precisely that everything sprung into existence... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 12:30:03 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 05:30:03 -0700 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051806.23782.1299604544853696347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Gupt, writes, >A resposne: >YES, INDEED , NOT ONLY OF THE RIGVEDA BUT OF THE BIBLE AND THE BIG BAND >WHICH BROUGHT THIS COSOS INTO CREATION ! >BHARAT GUPT Dear Professor, Sorry for being not able to understand your response. I am pretty sure Buddha's resistance to Vedic and its emergence in such and such a time period has a lot to do with the RV date. Suppose scholars worked out the date of RV taking Buddha's date as 600 B.C., Now that the recent researches by H. Bechert show parinirvana to be 350 B.C.., Correspondingly, RV date has to be brought forward by a minimum of 200 yrs. I beg to differ from your view: RV and Buddha are intimately related when compared to (say) Big Bang, Cosmos or the Bible. With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Sep 2 13:56:57 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 06:56:57 -0700 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051810.23782.9012610471564439413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >>>THE BIG BAND WHICH BROUGHT THIS COSMOS INTO CREATION ! > > >I have heard of the cosmos being compared to a great symphony, but I > >didn't think that any mythologies had developed around the idea. > >Perhaps Tommy Dorsey just hit OM on his clarinet so precisely that > >everything sprung into existence... Parpola, Asko, 1981. On the primary meaning and etymology of the sacred syllable ?m. Pp. 195-213 in: Asko Parpola (ed.), Proceedings of the Nordic South Asia Conference held in Helsinki, June 10-12, 1980. (Studia Orientalia, 50). Helsinki: The Finnish Oriental Society. Summary of the main theses: Original meaning: Om in the Vedic ritual = 'yes', om = tath? = 'yes' also in ordinary conversation, and in the Chandogya Upanishad ?m is expressly said to be a word expressing agreement. Etymology: < Dravidian ?m < ?kum 'yes' < 'it is (fitting, suitable)', ? labialized by the following m as Jaffna Tamil ?m < ?m. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Thu Sep 2 14:25:12 1999 From: kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal Raj Adhikary) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 07:25:12 -0700 Subject: change of email address In-Reply-To: <199803122109.QAA13755@web2.po.com> Message-ID: <161227051812.23782.5521887273926950932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Premchand doctor sahab, What is happening to your Jain project? Is is coming along? Best, Kamal >Dear Friend, > >I have your email address on my file. May be I have contacted you earlier >either for JAINA, Jain Academic Foundation of North America (JAFNA) or >personally by me or may be we have common friends. > >My email # has changed and please take a note of a new email address. > If you have sent me any email in last week you may send >it again at this new address to be sure I have read it. Please excuse me >if this email has caused any inconvenience to you. > >Please reply. Thank you. > > >Regards. > > >Premchand _________________________________________________ Where are the songs of Spring? Ay, where are they? Think not of them, thou hast thy music too,___ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Sep 2 15:33:07 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 08:33:07 -0700 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051819.23782.15700744969571366186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Madhav Deshpande wrote: > The date of the Buddha and the date of the RV are not directly related. > While it is the dase that the Buddhist suttas like the Tevijja Sutta refer > to Irubbeda (=RV) among other Vedas, the Suttas refer to the authors of > the Vedic mantras (ye te mantaana.m kattaaro isayo) as ancient > personalities (poraa.naa). This simply indicates a relative choronology > between the Vedic texts like the RV and the Buddhist tradition reflected > the the Pali canon, and there is no easy way of linking the dates of the > Buddha and the RV in such a way that if the date of the Buddha fluctuates > by a few hundred years, the date of the RV must correspondingly fluctuate > by the same. Each of these dates, apart from their obvious relative > chronolgy, must be treated as independent values to be determined by > unrelated independent evidence. Incidentally, Dr. Jan Houben talks on how Max Mueller dated the Vedas using Buddha's date on 31 May 98. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Sep 2 13:26:46 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 09:26:46 -0400 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV In-Reply-To: <19990902123004.36619.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227051808.23782.293523416608316514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The date of the Buddha and the date of the RV are not directly related. While it is the dase that the Buddhist suttas like the Tevijja Sutta refer to Irubbeda (=RV) among other Vedas, the Suttas refer to the authors of the Vedic mantras (ye te mantaana.m kattaaro isayo) as ancient personalities (poraa.naa). This simply indicates a relative choronology between the Vedic texts like the RV and the Buddhist tradition reflected the the Pali canon, and there is no easy way of linking the dates of the Buddha and the RV in such a way that if the date of the Buddha fluctuates by a few hundred years, the date of the RV must correspondingly fluctuate by the same. Each of these dates, apart from their obvious relative chronolgy, must be treated as independent values to be determined by unrelated independent evidence. Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Dr. Gupt, writes, > >A resposne: > >YES, INDEED , NOT ONLY OF THE RIGVEDA BUT OF THE BIBLE AND THE BIG BAND > >WHICH BROUGHT THIS COSOS INTO CREATION ! > >BHARAT GUPT > > Dear Professor, > > Sorry for being not able to understand your response. > I am pretty sure Buddha's resistance to Vedic and its > emergence in such and such a time period has a lot to do > with the RV date. > > Suppose scholars worked out the date of RV taking Buddha's > date as 600 B.C., Now that the recent researches by H. Bechert > show parinirvana to be 350 B.C.., Correspondingly, RV date has > to be brought forward by a minimum of 200 yrs. > > I beg to differ from your view: RV and Buddha are intimately > related when compared to (say) Big Bang, Cosmos or the Bible. > > With kind regards, > N. Ganesan > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Sep 2 09:29:55 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 09:29:55 +0000 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051788.23782.11582911235411301269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > H. Bechert, The date of the Buddha reconsidered, Indologia > Taurinensia, 1982, 11, p. 29-36 gives the summary that, based on > several Japanese scholars' work, the Buddha's parinirvana is around > 350 B.C. This date of the Buddha (350 BCE) is basically correct since > L. Cousins' review on Buddha's date on Indology web also takes > it to be 400 BCE. Probably to be little more conservative. > > Scholars assumed a date of 600 BCE just one or two dacades ago. > Will this bringing forward of the Buddha's times by a minimum > of two centuries have a bearing on the date of the Rig Veda? > Ie., the RV's age can be younger by atleast two centuries? > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com A resposne: YES, INDEED , NOT ONLY OF THE RIGVEDA BUT OF THE BIBLE AND THE BIG BAND WHICH BROUGHT THIS COSOS INTO CREATION ! BHARAT GUPT From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Sep 2 19:43:28 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 09:43:28 -1000 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV In-Reply-To: <19990902153307.9722.rocketmail@web306.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227051831.23782.13139381838345927243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Incidentally, Dr. Jan Houben talks on how Max Mueller dated the Vedas > using Buddha's date on 31 May 98. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Does anyone have Buddha's parents' address? I'd like to send him some nappies... Regards, Raja. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Sep 2 09:11:21 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 10:11:21 +0100 Subject: Answer to Mr. Ararwal In-Reply-To: <37CE65BF.1A25@del3.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227051797.23782.3238852073723730065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Bharat Gupt wrote: > INDIA IS A PLACE WHERE THE VEDAS AND THE SHRUTI-SMRITI TRADITION HAS > BEEN LIVED (NOT STUDIED OR MUSEUMISED OR INDOLOGISED) AND STILL IS THE > MAJORTY FAITH. [etc.] Dear Dr Gupt, Surely we need to make a distinction between scholarship and popular belief. This forum is a scholarly one, aimed at universtity-level researchers. As such, we are not obliged to adopt the lowest-common-denominator predjudices of the "man on the Clapham omnibus". It is perfectly legitimate in academic discourse to criticize and even to dismiss ideas which do not come up to the rigorous standards of scholarly probity. Most of us do this all year round when marking student essays (at least I hope we do!). There is no obligation on any academic on this list to give special consideration or acceptance to some idea-cluster just because it is a majority view in India or elsewhere. Indeed, it is often argued that a confessional adherence to a particular set of ideas is incompatible with the academic study of those ideas. I'm not sure I would completely agree with that, but it is certainly not an unreasonable position to take. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Sep 2 09:21:49 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 10:21:49 +0100 Subject: ATI, cant vs rant. In-Reply-To: <37CE6DF5.4FA6@del3.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227051799.23782.4589646893592472376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Bharat Gupt wrote: > THE TRANSFER OF AURVEDIC CONCEPTS TO SHAPE THE HIPPOKRATIC IDEAS IS > ANOTHER. Dear Dr Gupt, I would be the happiest scholar if I could find solid evidence of a transmission between Indian and Greek medicine, in either direction. There are hints here and there: Dioscorides mentions a number of Indian plants, for example, and I have some ideas I am developing about Agni and Soma and some humoral doctrines in the Cnidian school of Greek medicine. But broadly speaking there is no clear evidence of the transmission of ideas in either direction. The situation in ayurvedic literature is completely different from that in jyotisa, where heavy borrowing is clear. The ayurvedic literature is almost completely free from loanwords, and there is no evidence of direct contact with Greek thought, either to give or to receive. Apparently, vaidyas were very self-confident where it came to medicine, and resisted communcation with foreigners. [PS, may I suggest that you don't use capital letters for everything? It gives the impressions of shouting, and suggests that you are writing in a convulsion of apoplectic choler, which I'm hoping is not the case :-)] -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU Thu Sep 2 15:23:17 1999 From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 10:23:17 -0500 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051817.23782.11162788551029980545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For a different view on _om_, see H H Hock, On the origin and early development of the sacred Sanskrit syllable om. Perspectives on Indo-European language, culture, and religion: Studies in honor of Edgar C. Polom? 1.89-110. (Journal of Indo-European Studies Monographs, 7) 1991. > Parpola, Asko, 1981. On the primary meaning and etymology of the > sacred syllable ?m. Pp. 195-213 in: Asko Parpola (ed.), Proceedings > of the Nordic South Asia Conference held in Helsinki, June 10-12, > 1980. (Studia Orientalia, 50). Helsinki: The Finnish Oriental Society. > > Summary of the main theses: > Original meaning: Om in the Vedic ritual = 'yes', om = tath? = 'yes' > also in ordinary conversation, and in the Chandogya Upanishad ?m is > expressly said to be a word expressing agreement. > Etymology: < Dravidian ?m < ?kum 'yes' < 'it is (fitting, suitable)', > ? labialized by the following m as Jaffna Tamil ?m < ?m. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com Hans Henrich Hock Professor of Linguistics and Sanskrit Linguistics, 4088 FLB MC-168, University of Illinois 707 S. Mathews, Urbana IL 61801-3652 telephone: (217) 333-0357 or 333-3563 (messages) e-mail: hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu fax: (217) 333-3466 From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Sep 2 15:16:46 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 11:16:46 -0400 Subject: 2 Urdu books offered on exchange Message-ID: <161227051816.23782.9558365440088635309.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Library of Congress has 3 extra copies each of two Urdu collections of elegies on the martyrdoms of Karbala. These are very well got up. Both titles are have already been included in the Library's cooperative acquisitions program for Pakistan. They are available to any library with an exchange relationship with LC. 98-930990 Zahir Dihlavi, 1835-1911 Auraq-i Karbala, ya'ni raqimuddaulah Sayyid Zahiruddin Husain Zahir Dihlavi ke gher matbu'ah mirasi ed. Sayyid Iqbal Husain Kazmi Karaci: Marsiyah Fa'undeshan, 1997 544 p. 98-930991 Khaliq, Mir Mustahsin Mirasi-i Mir Khaliq, ya'ni Mir Mustahsin Khaliq ke ghe matbu'ah mirasi ed. Akbar Haidari Kashmiri Karaci: Marsiyah Fa'undeshan, 1997 504 p. [This record is not yet on the public catalog because of problems in the transition between systems.] Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Sep 2 11:55:43 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 11:55:43 +0000 Subject: Answer to Mr. Ararwal Message-ID: <161227051790.23782.13471970232569313870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > >From yavass Wed Sep 1 14:33:40 MSD 1999 > Dear Mr Agarwal, > sorry, but I can not answer both your brief posting on the list and > the large private one: this is the single answer...... > This is not to say that there are not in Russia some people who > really believe such things (among their inventions there is, by the way, > the most ancient esoterical "Russian Veda") - but, thank God, such people > are not welcomed at scholarly forums or at the Universities here..... > And it is a great pity, if the situation in India is different. > A RESONSE: I HOLD NO BRIEF FOR MR AGARWAL OR HIS ASSICIATES, BUT FEEL COMPELLED TO REACT ON THE INDIAN SITUATION WHICH OUR RUSSIAN FREIND HAS BEEN SO KIND TO PITY. INDIA IS A PLACE WHERE THE VEDAS AND THE SHRUTI-SMRITI TRADITION HAS BEEN LIVED (NOT STUDIED OR MUSEUMISED OR INDOLOGISED) AND STILL IS THE MAJORTY FAITH. EVEN IF IS "DISCOVERED" THAT VEDIC TEXTS, AND, OR , THEIR LANGUAGE ARE AN IMPORT INTO THE SUBCONTINENT, THE "FACT" IS UNSETTLING NOT JUST FOR "MODERN HINDOO NATIONALISTS" BUT FOR ALL ITS INHABITANTS. WHEN AMERICANS, RUSSIANS OR FOR THAT MATTER ALL EUROPEANS, FLAUNT THE ACCEPTANCE OF THEIR RECENTLY CONSTRUCTED CULTURAL IDENTITIES, THEY ARE BEING UNFAIR IN ASKING THE INDIANS, AMERICAN INDIANS, CHINESE AND (PARTIALLY THE GREEKS), TO DO THE SAME. ANCIENT PAST IS NOT SO OBVIOUSLY CLEAR. THE CONCEPT OF ORIGIN IS NOT SO SIMPLE AS POST RENAISSANCE MOBILE EUROPEANS AND TODAY'S GLOBALISTS WOULD LIKE TO US BELIEVE AS "FACTS OF HISTORY" . HISTRIOGRAPHY ITSELF TENDS TO SHOW THAT HISTORY IS A LOWER FORM OF LITERATURE AND HAS LESSER TRUTH AS ARISTOTLE IN HIS POETICS ADMITTED LONG AGO. 'ARYAN' OR "INDO-EUROPEANS" AS "PEOPLE", "TRIBES" , "RACES" OR "LINGUISTIC GROUPS" MAY VERY WELL BE A CONSTRUCTION BY THE EUROPEANS TO RECLAIM THEIR ORIGINAL SELF AS THE DYNAMISM BEHIND THE FLOWERING OF "CLASSICAL" GREECE, PERSIA AND INDIA. IF IT IS BEING PUT TO QUESTION IN INDIA TODAY, SHOULD IT SUPPRESED AS 'ETHNOCENTRC RANT' OBSTRUCTIVE OF GOOD WORK. ARYAN CONSTRUCT SERVED NOT ONLY THE COLONIAL REGIME, IT STILL SERVES THE CURRENT NORTH-SOUTH DIVIDE. BHARAT GUPT ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, DELHI UNIV. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Sep 2 16:04:14 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 12:04:14 -0400 Subject: 2 Urdu books offered on exchange Message-ID: <161227051826.23782.1988205206933068119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jim, I just sent these out on CONSALD and INDOLOGY and apparently didn't make it as clear as I thought that Islamabad was supplying them to program participants. Anyway, it occurred to me that maybe when we wind up with other extra copies of books from Pakistan I should automatically set aside a copy for the URLC. Do they have difficulty becoming aware of or obtaining Urdu books from Pakistan? Ask Murali etc. Please also give my warmest regards to everyone there. Allen The Library of Congress has 3 extra copies each of two Urdu collections of elegies on the martyrdoms of Karbala. These are very well got up. Both titles are have already been included in the Library's cooperative acquisitions program for Pakistan. They are available to any library with an exchange relationship with LC. 98-930990 Zahir Dihlavi, 1835-1911 Auraq-i Karbala, ya'ni raqimuddaulah Sayyid Zahiruddin Husain Zahir Dihlavi ke gher matbu'ah mirasi ed. Sayyid Iqbal Husain Kazmi Karaci: Marsiyah Fa'undeshan, 1997 544 p. 98-930991 Khaliq, Mir Mustahsin Mirasi-i Mir Khaliq, ya'ni Mir Mustahsin Khaliq ke ghe matbu'ah mirasi ed. Akbar Haidari Kashmiri Karaci: Marsiyah Fa'undeshan, 1997 504 p. [This record is not yet on the public catalog because of problems in the transition between systems.] Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH Thu Sep 2 11:22:30 1999 From: Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH (Anand Nayak) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 12:22:30 +0100 Subject: Answer to Mr. Ararwal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227051801.23782.6026521171751920339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Wujastyk, I appreciate your reply to Dr Gupt. However, I would like to say that the academic Indology studies made in the West do not really depict the Indian reality, particularly that of the religion. I live in both these worlds, tha academic western world and the Indian academic as well as the non-academic religious fields. The so called "Indology" is still wrapped in deep colonial attitudes and categories, although some significant changes in these atttitudes are taking place today. Vedas, Upanisads and the classical sastras - however important they are in themselves- are not the predominant traits of the present-day Hinduism. I think the modern Indology should lay more accent on the way the texts are lived (or not-lived) today in India and elsewhere. Greetings. A. Nayak >On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Bharat Gupt wrote: > >> INDIA IS A PLACE WHERE THE VEDAS AND THE SHRUTI-SMRITI TRADITION HAS >> BEEN LIVED (NOT STUDIED OR MUSEUMISED OR INDOLOGISED) AND STILL IS THE >> MAJORTY FAITH. >[etc.] > >Dear Dr Gupt, > >Surely we need to make a distinction between scholarship and popular >belief. This forum is a scholarly one, aimed at universtity-level >researchers. As such, we are not obliged to adopt the >lowest-common-denominator predjudices of the "man on the Clapham omnibus". > >It is perfectly legitimate in academic discourse to criticize and even to >dismiss ideas which do not come up to the rigorous standards of scholarly >probity. Most of us do this all year round when marking student essays (at >least I hope we do!). There is no obligation on any academic on this list >to give special consideration or acceptance to some idea-cluster just >because it is a majority view in India or elsewhere. Indeed, it is often >argued that a confessional adherence to a particular set of ideas is >incompatible with the academic study of those ideas. I'm not sure I would >completely agree with that, but it is certainly not an unreasonable >position to take. > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk >Founder, INDOLOGY list Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Avenue de l'Europe 20 CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Sep 2 12:30:45 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 12:30:45 +0000 Subject: ATI, cant vs rant. Message-ID: <161227051793.23782.13659396840149555456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A theoretical observation on ARYAN ORIGIN hypothesis. WHAT IS SO OBJECTIONABLE IN exploring the possibility of INDO-EUROPEAN PRECLASSICAL CULTURE AS A MOVEMENT BORN AND FLOWERING OUT OF CRISS-CROSS INTERCHANGE OF IDEAS AND TECHNOLOGY (INCLUDING LINGUISTIC) IN A REGION OVER A PERIOD RATHER THAN A HARPING UPON A SINGLE LINE MOVEMENT OF A NORTHEN RACE PUSHING SOUTH THE MINOAN, HARAPPAN (DRAVIDA?) CULTURES INTO OBLIVION OR SUBMISSION ? EVIDENTIALLY LITTLE SURVIVES IN THE "ARYAN HOME" WHEREVER IT MAY HAVE BEEN GEOGRAPHICALLY AND EVERTHING AS HERITAGE OR LIVING CULTURE IS FOUND IN THE "OVERPOWERED" REGIONS. THIS IS ONE OF THE BASIC PROBLEMS ABOUT THE CREDIBILITY OF THE "ARYANS" AS A RACE AND THEIR HOME. THE PROBLEM TO RECONSIDER IS THE PARADIGM OF NORTH TO SOUTH LINE OF CONQUEST. IS IT SO SANCROSANT AND COULD THEIR HAVE BEEN NO REACTIVE SOUTH TO NORTH CURRENTS ALSO. THE DEPENDENCE OF PRE-CLASSICAL GREECE ON EGYPT (UNDERPLAYED EVEN NOW) IS A GLARING EXAMPLE. THE TRANSFER OF AURVEDIC CONCEPTS TO SHAPE THE HIPPOKRATIC IDEAS IS ANOTHER. BHARAT GUPT ASC PROF,DELHI UNIV From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Thu Sep 2 08:58:19 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 14:28:19 +0530 Subject: Data on "Hindutva" sites In-Reply-To: <19990901173830.57732.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227051795.23782.5438281305069765716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Shrinivas Tilak wrote: > .. "mainstream" indologists .. should not dismiss data ... > merely because it also appears on so-called "hindutva" sites. Exactly. Nor should information on Black Dalit and White Nazi sites, like the following ( WARNING: all are links to `hard' AIT sites ) - - Aryan Invasion of India, by Malik Anwar Aten-Ra http://www.ixpres.com/ntruth/aryan.htm - Revival Movement for Dravidian Religion by Devakala http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1412/ - The Sudroid (Indo-African) Race by Indopedia http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1335/Anthro/sud_afr.html - Aryan Invasion and Fall of the Indus Empire by Indopedia http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1335/Hist/fall_ind.html The `hindutva' theories do not seem to matter to them, and they seem to consider the `out of india' notions as another `White Aryan Conspiracy'. The data presented at the following Nazi sites also have as much of a right to be heard as those presented previously - - The Aryan language in Asia by Madison Grant http://melvig.org/pgr/pgr-2-14.html - Caucasian Civilizations That Have Perished by Cox http://www.melvig.org/wa/wa-06.html Not my books, not my sites ! They are merely provided because there seems to be colossal ignorance on AIT. Readers brought up in Indian schools amidst Pseudo-Secularist `soft AIT' and Hindutva `Out of India' can now read the AIT in its classical `hard' form. Also note how both the black and white nationalists agree on the Aryan invasions and the two thousand years' race war. Those who deny the `hard' AIT should read the books cited above and refute the points given therein. Advocates of `soft' AIT (pseudo-secularists like Romila Thapar) should also have a look at the sites and decide whether their `soft' AIT ( Dravidians dyiing of plagues and floods, Aryans migrating into empty India ) stands any chance with the advent of the internet. Samar From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Sep 2 18:43:17 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 14:43:17 -0400 Subject: 2 Urdu books : apologies and explanation Message-ID: <161227051828.23782.1663914812593883939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My apologies for sending a personal message or two about the Urdu books offered to the list. I should emphasize that these titles are also supplied in the LC cooperative acquisitions program but that the extra copies offered came to Washington by another route, being given by relatives of people involved in the publication. Could any librarians concerned about the titles please communicate to me and not to the list? Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 23:04:41 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 16:04:41 -0700 Subject: My 'Threat' to Dr. Thomspon Message-ID: <161227051837.23782.15079101517656997517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Respected Mr. Fosse, I am not at all satisfied with your response. How dare you even accuse me of such a thing? Have you yourself not made scurrilous remarks against a fellow listmember's wife in June? I donot even know where Dr. Thompson lives and what he does. I wonder why the criticism is directed at Dr. Rajaram since he is merely the reviewer of a book. If anything, the criticism should have been directed at Dr. Elst whose book was the only debatable point here. On the merit of the AIT debate, why not do a search on the List archives using names like 'raoul', 'vidynath', 'ebryant', 'kalyan', 'sns' and see what merit there is in the AMT/AIT model? I am certainly not a card holding member of any Sangh Organization. Yet, while your criticism of them is totally unwarranted (must be due to reading secondary sources and not field work), you still have to need to take a leap of faith to imagine that I would threaten a person if my view happens to tally theirs! (To me, the White race does not have a good reputation). In fact, I would now request the Listmaster to remove YOU from the list. I am posting a PART of your response on the list. ___________ Mr. Fosse wrote: "Dear Vishal Agrawal, I'll get right to the point (and not publish this answer on Indology, since it dawned upon me that I am rapidly using up my quota for this month). Here is the relevant portion of your posting: > VA: You seem to have acknowledged the fact that the AIT theory is drawing > increasing derision in India. **It is in the interest of your own self > preservation** that you give scholarly responses to your opponents rather >than use pejorative terms against them. As stated here, the wording is slightly different from the way it was quoted by Vassilkov. However, you are not really off the hook. The phrase that I have marked by ** can, in my opinion, only be construed as a veiled threat, particularly in the context of the present debate because the use of threats and intimidation are part and parcel of Sangh family tactics. You may not be a member of any Sangh family organisations, or sympathize with them politically, but the views you hold on AIT are certainly not much different from theirs, and consequently use of threatening language will immediately bring to the mind the political tactics used by the Sangh. I am afraid that you will not get an apology this time. I have no compunction about offering apologies when I realize that I have been wrong, but this time I feel that my reaction was justified. I was on the verge of suggesting that you get thrown off the list permanently, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and let it go, particularly since George Thompson in an email to me takes a milder view of your wording than I do." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 23:48:11 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 16:48:11 -0700 Subject: Closing remarks to Dr. Vassilkov Message-ID: <161227051842.23782.16427651998467196545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Vassilkov, By dismissing your opponents as ' diletanti', you have unwiittingly mocked the Engineers and Scientists in this list like Dr. N. Ganesan and Vidyasamkar Sunderesan who are not professional Indologists either, but whose posts are highly informed, and well researched. I must admire your ability to judge a book (and its author as well) by reading a mere 25% of the review and without exhibiting any signficant knowledge of this issue. The deceitful way you have twisted my remarks will be clear to those listmembers (active and passive) who have requested a copy of my private communication to you. I had even privately sent you an apology for my early exchange with you in June. But you lack basic decency. Is it not surprising that Max Mueller used the exact words "Raving and ranting of madmen' and 'charlatans.' to describe the authors of Brahmana texts?? I am shocked that you and Fosse should have misconstrued my statement out of context and made a bully out of me. I cannot help it if you imagine Saffron Swastikas and Trishuls in my words. But I am reproducing the entire para of my message for the List members to see you (and Fosse's) poor text comprehension and analytical abilities. (I hope a little more wisdom is displayed when you folks actually interpret the Sanskrit texts). I will not be surprised if their fanciful notions are clearly reflected in their writings on Indology. "VA: You seem to have acknowledged the fact that the AIT theory is drawing increasing derision in India. It is in the interest of your own self preservation that you give scholarly responses to your opponents rather than use pejorative terms against them. Since you have not posted any response to them, where does the question of wasting time arise?? For a start, why not respond to my questions on the date of RV proposed by you. Using these very linguistic criteria, Mary Boyce places Zarathushtra in the 14th Cent. B.C.E. (A fact acknowledged by a prominent list member in a private communication to me). As I said earlier, the relationship between Avestan and RV language does exist, but not as great as is made out to be." It is because of the Vassilkovs of Medeival ages that Keplers and Galileos were persecuted. Thank you anyway for penning another longish, pathetic abusive post (even though you did not have time earlier to wrote academic responses to other objectors in the list like Kalyanaraman, Bryant, Vidynath, Raoul Martens....) PS: Since the whole issue has unnecessarily generated controversy, I shall not be posting the remaining 3 parts of the review. But I wish the Vassilkovs had read the other 3 parts before venting their pre-conceived notions and biases. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kellera at PARIS7.JUSSIEU.FR Thu Sep 2 14:59:08 1999 From: kellera at PARIS7.JUSSIEU.FR (Agathe Keller) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 16:59:08 +0200 Subject: lak.sa.na-suutra Message-ID: <161227051814.23782.5303484416784935885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Bhaaskara's bha.sya to the Aaryabha.tiiya, commented suutras are sometimes refered to as ``lak.sa.na suutra" (characterisation rules) to which illustrations (udde'sana) are opposed. I have been told, and it does appear clearly from Bhaaskara's bha.sya that characterisation rules, by their generality bestow a knowledge that requires some kind of elaboration: they are understood from all the different cases in which they are applied. Illustrations on the other hand, give directly to see what a rule is about, and therefore bestow a direct knowledge (pratyak.sa). I was wondering if this idea is usually found in commentaries, if it was typical of some philosophical theory of knowledge, and if any second hand litterature would be available on this topic. thanks Agathe Agathe Keller 141 rue de Paris 93100 Montreuil (33 1) 55 86 28 16 From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 00:18:13 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 17:18:13 -0700 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227051844.23782.14554800047827499107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> P Chandrasekaran writes : >"....it is a very fitting tribute to pay, having a well-rounded >knowledge of Tamil ..." >an indisputable evidence that millenia ago Tamil was consciously used >as a glorified label for the native heritage. C'mon, c'mon! Where exactly is 'native' ever mentioned? And that too as against alien Samskrutam! And loyalty to a particular language need not necessarily mean hostility towards another. The Bengalis are passionate about their language, but they don't deny Samskrutam its place. >The "political agenda" agenda of the epic cilappatikAram seems to be >expressly >to unite the fragmented Tamil society into one unified force against > >alien >cultures and powers and there are passages in it from employing the >word >"Tamil" >and "tamil nADu" from which this can be deduced. CilappatikAram, a text from a religious background which has traditionally prided on itself being 'Arya' hardly supports your argument. And to take a non-astika text as a base for your argument whose tradition has never been the truly popular tradition, weakens your argument further still! And most pro-AIT specialists hardly seem to be in touch with the living reality. A big percentage of the so called 'dravidian' populace can hardly pronounce the 'zha', in the word "Thamizh" (Tamil) itself, let alone master the intricacies of the language. While the so called Aryan brahmana excels in his proficiency in the so called dravida tongue! So apart from framing 'theories' from ancient texts, a hard look at living realities might also come in handy when constructing the history of a people. Another interesting thing to note is that the so called 'protector' of the dravidian heritage - the dravidian political parties - the DMK - which for the past few decades resorted to rabid anti-brahmanism, have shown no hesitation to embrace the pro-Aryan, Hindutva BJP to further its political ends, when its dravidian appeal had faded with the so called dravidian populace. Just reveals where the actual interests of the 'dravida' intelligensia (I don't mean the professors!) lies! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 01:39:13 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 18:39:13 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051846.23782.9356161009701146273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Suppose Rajaram is right, the RgVeda is pre- rather than >post-Harappan, and the dominant language in Harappa was Indo-Aryan, >-- that would render most of the extant literature on ancient India >obsolete. Dear Dr. Elst, Would like to know your position: RgVeda is pre- or post- Harappan? Thanks, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Sep 2 23:42:20 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 19:42:20 -0400 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051839.23782.15367912348138911075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Welcome to the list, Dr. Elst. I would like to know what passages in the Rgveda make you think that the RV is pre-Harappan. I look forward to your reply. In the meantime I will continue my readings of the RV. Best wishes, George Thompson In a message dated 9/2/99 6:11:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE writes: > Respected Colleagues, > > I am the lone indologist cited among the Aryan invasion skeptics by > Vishal Agarwal. When reading the debate of the past week, it all looks so > familiar to one who has followed this debate for the last nine years. Two > professors walk out, one because he has better things to do, another because > he has wasted enough time on "rebuttals" of the crazy arguments offered by > former NASA scientist NS Rajaram and his ilk. > There certainly are higher things in life than Indology, but within > Indology, there is at present no debate more consequential than the one > about the AIT. Suppose Rajaram is right, the RgVeda is pre- rather than > post-Harappan, and the dominant language in Harappa was Indo-Aryan,-- that > would render most of the extant literature on ancient India obsolete. As > for those numerous rebuttals, I'd like to see one or two of them. Most > pro-invasion polemicists, like Romila Thapar and Shereen Ratnagar, focus on > alleged political connotations (not realizing that Hitler was in their own > camp?), but beat around the bush when it comes to the hard evidence. Here > too it is all blamed on Indian chauvinism, but how does that apply to the > increasing number of Western skeptics (say, archaeologist Jim Shaffer whose > spade fails to dig up any bone or artefact identifiable as invading Aryan)? > Apart from political invective, there is the insulting amalgam with > Atlantis-mongers or with some eccentric Russian cult. To which I say: you > can only compare two things if you know both of them, and your familiarity > with the non-invasionist argument does not match your knowledge of the > reasons why the earth is flat. What is offered is no comparison but > projection of the traits of the known object of contempt to the unknown > object of contempt. > I'm glad to hear that some team somewhere is preparing a systematic > refutation of this Indocentric nonsense. But that's another constant in > this debate: the evidence is always with someone else, some reassuring > authority. Linguistics is always invoked as proving the AIT, while a > linguist told me that his discipline is unable to decide the matter, "but > there is of course the archaeological evidence". > Finally, the shrill tone in which Aryan invasion skepticism is dealt > with here, reached an unpleasant high with the interpretation of Vishalji's > advice to be more polite vis-?-vis Aryan invasion skeptics "for your own > self-preservation" as a threat of physical violence. This is really bad. > What Vishalji meant was clearly that when the present orthodoxy is > superseded by a new paradigm, the present-day denunciations of that new > paradigm will look ridiculous, and this in proportion to the grim tones in > which they are expressed. And even if there is no change of paradigm, > polite debating mores would better befit a forum which so prides itself on > its academic status. > > Dr. Koenraad Elst > Peter Benoitlaan 7 > 3010 Leuven, Belgium > http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Sep 3 04:16:33 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 21:16:33 -0700 Subject: Data on "Hindutva" sites Message-ID: <161227051823.23782.289187529656604129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > > Also note how both the black and white nationalists agree on the Aryan> invasions and the two thousand years' race war. Those who deny the `hard'> AIT should read the books cited above and refute the points given therein.> Samar, One reason both the Dalit and Nazis may agree on the "hard theory" is that both often rely mostly on old sources, which is readily apparent reading their works. Most of easily available older references firmly espouse the AIT theory. Also, it is noteworthy that you think that "pseudo-secularists" like Thapar are responsible for the "soft theory." The Hindutva school appear to classify Thapar et al. more as AIT fanatics. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Sep 3 01:59:52 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 21:59:52 -0400 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227051851.23782.11474046278113605255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sumathi Ramaswamy says, p. 10 But, having included neo-Shaivites (who consider both Tamil and zaivism as important) among her subject of study, Ramaswamy has no basis to dismiss those instances where Tamil was not the primary subject of prais, if she wants to be consistent. Let us look at the real role of Tamil in Tamil zaivism. An analysis of the works of Tamil zaivite saints shows how conscious they were of their Tamil identity. Consider the following translation of a hymn from page 50 of "Poems to ziva" by Indira Petersen. Note how the saint, campantar, identifies himself as a Tamil poet. This is not a sporadic occurrence. He does it many times. In fact, verse 1922 from periyapurANam (12th century) describes some of the reasons for campantar's birth to be that the southern direction would exceed others in fame, and Tamil usage will triumph over that of other language/s. Another verse, periyapurANam 1942, calls campantar as the leader who was born so that the zaivite canon and Tamil will flourish (" tirumuRaiyum tIm tamizum ciRakkavaru nAyakan2") On Tamil zaivite hymns, Indira Petersen says, (Petersen, p. 50) Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Sep 3 01:59:55 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 21:59:55 -0400 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227051848.23782.443825769891541473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sumathi Ramaswamy says, (p. 32) This is not true either. (Petersen, p. 52) (Actually campantar refers to his own hymns as "maRai ilaGku Tamiz" in tEvAram 1.161.11) (Petersen, p. 58-59) Indeed, the attachment of Tamil zaivites at large to Tamil, the language of the hymns, is far older, and emotionally meaningful than Ramaswamy has realized. Tamil zaivites did not arrive at it during the nineteenth century colonial environment. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Sep 3 02:54:50 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 22:54:50 -0400 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227051854.23782.8948206672973293870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sumathi Ramaswamy says, p. 10 This is not true. Tamil is an autonomous subject of praise much earlier as seen in the following zleSa verse quoted in a medieval work called taNTiyalaGkAram (probably first half of 12th century). OGkal iTai vantu uyarntOr toza viLaGki EGku oli nIr JAlattu iruL akaRRum - AGku avaRRuL min2n2Er tan2i Azi vem katir on2Ru En2aiyatu tan2 n2Er ilAta tamiz Here both Tamil and the sun are said to appear at a high location/mountain, be worshipped by those who are great/learned/exalted (as in piety, in virtue, or in austerities), and remove darkness from the earth. A later poem by paraJcOtimun2ivar (between 1450/1500 and 1625 A.D ) in tiruviLaiyATaRpurANam is shown below. kaN Nutal kaTavuLum kazakamOTu amarntu paN uRat terintu Aynta ip pacum Tamil maN iTaic cila ilakkaNa varampilA mozi pOl eN iTaip paTak kiTantatAy eNNavumpaTumO Here the poet praises Tamil by asking "Can one think of Tamil as one among many grammar-less languages given that Tamil was studied by ziva himself as a member of the academy in Madurai?" The above verse is one of four praising Tamil. In fact, this work seems to have been an immediate source of inspiration for Sundaram Pillai's poem which apparently led to Ramaswamy's research. In that poem, Pillai uses a zooming technique to praise Tamil by the following metaphorical equivalences. earth - woman Indian subcontinent - woman's face Deccan - woman's forehead Dravidian country - tilaka on the forehead Tamil - the fragrance of the tilaka Now consider the following poem in paraJcOti's work. mAyavan2 vaTivu Ayatu vaiyam mAl untic cEya paGkayam Ayatu ten2n2an2 nATu alarmEl pOya men2 pokuTTu Ayatu potiyam ap pokuTTin2 mEya nAn2mukan akattiyan2 muttamiz vETam Here the following equivalences are noted: earth - viSNu Pandya country - lotus growing from viSNu's navel potiyil mountain - pericarp of the lotus agastya - brahma sitting on the pericarp Tamil - veda created by brahma One can see the obvious similarity between these two. paraJcOti's zooming technique, in turn, is based on a pre-bhakti poem (paripATal tiraTTu 8). Next, let us look at the feminization of language. Regards S. Palaniappan PS: In my earlier postings, "Petersen" should have been "Peterson". I regret the error. From GthomGt at CS.COM Fri Sep 3 03:17:58 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 23:17:58 -0400 Subject: My 'Threat' to Dr. Thomspon Message-ID: <161227051858.23782.13724280761338145976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 9/2/99 7:05:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM writes, among other things: > (To me, the White race does not have a good reputation).... Well, this is very reassuring to me, since I myself am not white. It makes me feel sure that Mr Agarwal's threats against me are not serious. Perhaps we can turn back to scholarship now. George Thompson From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Thu Sep 2 21:54:18 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 23:54:18 +0200 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051834.23782.10175314413879306606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Respected Colleagues, I am the lone indologist cited among the Aryan invasion skeptics by Vishal Agarwal. When reading the debate of the past week, it all looks so familiar to one who has followed this debate for the last nine years. Two professors walk out, one because he has better things to do, another because he has wasted enough time on "rebuttals" of the crazy arguments offered by former NASA scientist NS Rajaram and his ilk. There certainly are higher things in life than Indology, but within Indology, there is at present no debate more consequential than the one about the AIT. Suppose Rajaram is right, the RgVeda is pre- rather than post-Harappan, and the dominant language in Harappa was Indo-Aryan,-- that would render most of the extant literature on ancient India obsolete. As for those numerous rebuttals, I'd like to see one or two of them. Most pro-invasion polemicists, like Romila Thapar and Shereen Ratnagar, focus on alleged political connotations (not realizing that Hitler was in their own camp?), but beat around the bush when it comes to the hard evidence. Here too it is all blamed on Indian chauvinism, but how does that apply to the increasing number of Western skeptics (say, archaeologist Jim Shaffer whose spade fails to dig up any bone or artefact identifiable as invading Aryan)? Apart from political invective, there is the insulting amalgam with Atlantis-mongers or with some eccentric Russian cult. To which I say: you can only compare two things if you know both of them, and your familiarity with the non-invasionist argument does not match your knowledge of the reasons why the earth is flat. What is offered is no comparison but projection of the traits of the known object of contempt to the unknown object of contempt. I'm glad to hear that some team somewhere is preparing a systematic refutation of this Indocentric nonsense. But that's another constant in this debate: the evidence is always with someone else, some reassuring authority. Linguistics is always invoked as proving the AIT, while a linguist told me that his discipline is unable to decide the matter, "but there is of course the archaeological evidence". Finally, the shrill tone in which Aryan invasion skepticism is dealt with here, reached an unpleasant high with the interpretation of Vishalji's advice to be more polite vis-?-vis Aryan invasion skeptics "for your own self-preservation" as a threat of physical violence. This is really bad. What Vishalji meant was clearly that when the present orthodoxy is superseded by a new paradigm, the present-day denunciations of that new paradigm will look ridiculous, and this in proportion to the grim tones in which they are expressed. And even if there is no change of paradigm, polite debating mores would better befit a forum which so prides itself on its academic status. Dr. Koenraad Elst Peter Benoitlaan 7 3010 Leuven, Belgium http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 11:29:09 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 04:29:09 -0700 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051880.23782.1939144157822825023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Deshpande & Dr. Cousins, P. Olivelle, upaniSads, OUP, p. xxxvi [footnote 21] "Much of the chronology of the upani.sads and of other ancient texts depends on the date of the Buddha's death. The generally accepted date of around 486 BCE has been challenged recently. Bechert's dating of 375-355 BCE ('The Date of the Buddha reconsidered', Indologica Taurinensia, 10, 1981, 29-36) has been supported by Erdosy using archaeological data ('The archaeology of Early Buddhism' in N. K. Wagle and F. Watanabe (eds.) Studies in Buddhism in honor of A. K. Warder (Toronto: University of Toronto Centre for South Asian studies, 1993), p. 40-56. If the latter date is accepted, which I favor, then the dates of the early upaniSads should be pushed forward a century or so (see Witzel 1989, 241-251)" I just extended this reasoning to RV date. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 12:16:24 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 05:16:24 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051882.23782.10501626274110013695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Secondly, the absence of a number of things in the Vedic testimony points to pre- rather than post-Harappan. Thus, you may be aware that one of the opening shots in the renewed Aryan invasion debate was KD Sethna's argument sometime in the 1980s, that the Vedas were unaware of cotton, a common commodity in the late-Harappan period, and also making its appearance in the literary record in the Sutras. How likely is it that wool-clad Central-Asian invaders conquered the Harappan territory, which even after losing its most advanced urban traits continued its elementary achievements like the production and use of cotton, did not acquaint themselves with this climate-adapted native cloth? It is obviously more likely that cotton had not been commodified yet, pointing to the pre-Harappan time. >>> Is it possible that Indo-Aryans when they entered India did not know the cultivation of cotton? Later when the acculturated Dravidians adopted the IA language, they started using the cotton. Comparison: Just like the mahAvedi sacrificial altars with complex math rules is likely from Dravidian side. Pl. refer to the etymology of the word, kaNi (Skt. gaNi) from Dravidian by Dr. Palniappan. While the sacrificial altars are shallow pits in the RV, the evolution of them into mahaavedis for public display employing bricks and mathematical formulas is likely to have happened after the Dravidians turned into IA speakers. In direct contrast to the nonexistence of cotton in early Vedic, Tamil sangam texts celebrate cotton. This aspect is not subject to study yet. The vertical looms making cloth are compared to rain falling from clouds; Even the biofences around a village are made with the cotton plant. "pan2n2al vEli paNai nallUrE!". 'parutti, pan2n2al' are ancient tamil terms for cotton. Importantly, widows are called "paruttip peNTir" (=cotton ladies) in ancient sangam works. This stems from an ancient custom where widows are given handlooms for spinning cotton thread. This sangam text usage is found even today in some castes: when the husband dies, an important funerary ritual is the wife's brother giving a handloom in front of close relatives. Gandhi took this idea when he was visiting the South and applied it nationwide. The contrast of cotton, its high place in tamil sangam texts and its absence in vedic will be an interesting topic to pursue. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 14:14:42 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 07:14:42 -0700 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051887.23782.16452140932346559065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I would agree that the date of the Upani.sads is indeed closely >related to the date of the Buddha and Mahavira, but I would not >extend the same logic to the date of the RV, which would have to be >reasoned on the basis of independent evidence. Arvind Sharma disagrees: "If we move the Rgveda to 1000 B.C. and still insist that Buddha died in 480 B.C. then the whole Vedic period is squeezed to five hundred years and not everyone is comfortable with it. The other option is to move the Buddha's date closer to the common era - to around 350 B.C. as Japanese scholars have been suggesting for a long time. This might provide a solution though it plays havoc with the chronology of the Buddhist councils, but that is a grey area anyway." from G. Erdosy, The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia, 1995. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Fri Sep 3 07:15:19 1999 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 08:15:19 +0100 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051876.23782.15711100719675431687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande writes: >The date of the Buddha and the date of the RV are not directly related. >While it is the dase that the Buddhist suttas like the Tevijja Sutta refer >to Irubbeda (=RV) among other Vedas, the Suttas refer to the authors of >the Vedic mantras (ye te mantaana.m kattaaro isayo) as ancient >personalities (poraa.naa). This simply indicates a relative choronology >between the Vedic texts like the RV and the Buddhist tradition reflected >the the Pali canon, and there is no easy way of linking the dates of the >Buddha and the RV in such a way that if the date of the Buddha fluctuates >by a few hundred years, the date of the RV must correspondingly fluctuate >by the same. Each of these dates, apart from their obvious relative >chronolgy, must be treated as independent values to be determined by >unrelated independent evidence. Isn't that going a bit far ? Surely the date of RV is partly dependent on the dating of subsequent Vedic literature of various kinds ? Are you prepared to say that the date of the Upani.sads is unrelated to the dating of the Buddha and Mahaaviira ? Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Sep 3 12:33:05 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 08:33:05 -0400 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV In-Reply-To: <19990903112910.18692.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227051884.23782.12437674206825889551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would agree that the date of the Upani.sads is indeed closely related to the date of the Buddha and Mahavira, but I would not extend the same logic to the date of the RV, which would have to be reasoned on the basis of independent evidence. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Dear Dr. Deshpande & Dr. Cousins, > > P. Olivelle, upaniSads, OUP, p. xxxvi > [footnote 21] > "Much of the chronology of the upani.sads and of other ancient > texts depends on the date of the Buddha's death. The generally accepted date > of around 486 BCE has been challenged recently. > Bechert's dating of 375-355 BCE ('The Date of the Buddha > reconsidered', Indologica Taurinensia, 10, 1981, 29-36) has been > supported by Erdosy using archaeological data ('The archaeology of > Early Buddhism' in N. K. Wagle and F. Watanabe (eds.) > Studies in Buddhism in honor of A. K. Warder (Toronto: University > of Toronto Centre for South Asian studies, 1993), p. 40-56. If the > latter date is accepted, which I favor, then the dates of the early > upaniSads should be pushed forward a century or so > (see Witzel 1989, 241-251)" > > I just extended this reasoning to RV date. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 15:36:12 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 08:36:12 -0700 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227051894.23782.3561533578013642314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Palaniappan writes : >Moved by intense love for ziva >JAn2acampantan2, the Tamil poet >? worships in song >the Lord who dwells in ArUr ?. >He who can recite these ten verses >and listen to them >will wipe his life clean of sorrow. campantar 1.105.11> >Note how the saint, campantar, identifies himself as a Tamil poet. >This is >not a sporadic occurrence. He does it many times. In fact, verse 1922 >from >periyapurANam (12th century) describes some of the reasons for >campantar's >birth to be that the southern direction would exceed others in fame, >and >Tamil usage will triumph over that of other language/s. But the only hole in your argument is that Thiru jnAna Sampanthar was a brAhmana! So are we now to conclude that Tamizh is the native language of the brAhmana too, thus of Arya origin? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From RSabnavi at UMMG.COM Fri Sep 3 15:00:39 1999 From: RSabnavi at UMMG.COM (Ram Sabnavis) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 09:00:39 -0600 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051890.23782.10115175425718419068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>> "N. Ganesan" 09/03/99 08:14AM >>> >I would agree that the date of the Upani.sads is indeed closely >related to the date of the Buddha and Mahavira, but I would not >extend the same logic to the date of the RV, which would have to be >reasoned on the basis of independent evidence. Arvind Sharma disagrees: "If we move the Rgveda to 1000 B.C. and still insist that Buddha died in 480 B.C. then the whole Vedic period is squeezed to five hundred years and not everyone is comfortable with it. The other option is to move the Buddha's date closer to the common era - to around 350 B.C. as Japanese scholars have been suggesting for a long time. This might provide a solution though it plays havoc with the chronology of the Buddhist councils, but that is a grey area anyway." from G. Erdosy, The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia, 1995. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From RSabnavi at UMMG.COM Fri Sep 3 15:03:43 1999 From: RSabnavi at UMMG.COM (Ram Sabnavis) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 09:03:43 -0600 Subject: Hi Message-ID: <161227051893.23782.4998057063767449682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi there! Vedas are apourusheyas.So i strongly contradict the point of dating either vedas or upanishads and relating to any other eras in term of dating. sairamprasad sabnavis rsabnavi at ummg.com From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Sep 3 03:39:36 1999 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (bahulkar) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 09:09:36 +0530 Subject: BORI e-mail Message-ID: <161227051856.23782.10793521111989038514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, The e-mail address of BORI is : Prof. M.G. Dhadphale, Secretary of BORI has asked me to inform all the recepients of the e-mail address of the Institute given above. Scholars are requested to communicate freely with the Institute through e-mail. They may also use his personal e-mail address, if necessary : Shrikant Bahulkar, Member, Executive Board, BORI Christian wrote: > Try this one. It never gets returned, but then again I've never gotten a > reply either... > > bori at ip.eht.net > > Christian > > At 01:44 PM 8/31/99 +0400, you wrote: > >Dear List Members! > >Please, help, if anybody knows e-mail of the > >Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute. > >Thank You > >S.Tawaststjerna From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Fri Sep 3 08:18:41 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 10:18:41 +0200 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051860.23782.15051203854459627000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Thompson, Let me say first of all that i am impressed with the first-hand knowledge of the Vedas abounding on this forum. Myself, unfortunately, temporarily abandoned my plans of pursuing Vedic studies when I stayed at Benares Hindu University in 1988, thinking that the incipient Satanic Verses and Ayodhya crises called for my more urgent attention. Doing something "relevant", you know. Anyway, even with some basic knowledge of the Vedas and the prevalent theories about them, we can go a long way. For starters: the very evidence usually given for a post-Harappan date is equally compatible with a pre-Harappan date. Thus, it is always said that Vedic culture shows less sophistication in material culture and less urbanization than is evident in the Harappan ruins. Well, that may fit India in the 2nd millennium,-- but it also fits India in the 4th millennium. Secondly, the absence of a number of things in the Vedic testimony points to pre- rather than post-Harappan. Thus, you may be aware that one of the opening shots in the renewed Aryan invasion debate was KD Sethna's argument sometime in the 1980s, that the Vedas were unaware of cotton, a common commodity in the late-Harappan period, and also making its appearance in the literary record in the Sutras. How likely is it that wool-clad Central-Asian invaders conquered the Harappan territory, which even after losing its most advanced urban traits continued its elementary achievements like the production and use of cotton, did not acquaint themselves with this climate-adapted native cloth? It is obviously more likely that cotton had not been commodified yet, pointing to the pre-Harappan time. Similar arguments have been developed for metallurgy and other material items. Thirdly, the astronomical references to the shifting equinox, continuing through Vedic literature and down to Kalidasa. If this concerned just one stray reference, you could say it is open to interpretation; but there are many, and their relative chronology is consistent with what we know of the sequence of this literature. The only coherent reading of all of them puts the Vedas in the pre-Harappan period and the Brahmanas in the Harappan period itself. Fourthly, the centrality of the Saraswati river in the Vedas, the life-artery of many Harappan cities, river and cities declining together in ca. 2000 BC. That this excludes a post-Harappan date for the Vedas has been pointed out so many times by AIT skeptics. To my knowledge, this objection has not been answered satisfactorily. But maybe we shouldn't "waste time" on answering the confabulations of Atlantis theorists? Discussion of specific verses will have to wait till after these general observations have at least been acknowledged by AIT defenders. Note also that all these points have been developed in detail in books published in the past few years (some also are much older, e.g. Winternitz's observation in ca. 1905 that you just cannot cram the complex development of pre-Buddhist literature and civilization into the few centuries before the Buddha) and widely available. I need not rewrite them here. Yours sincerely, Dr. Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 17:25:31 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 10:25:31 -0700 Subject: Answer to Mr. Ararwal Message-ID: <161227051900.23782.9356871766472570065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Wujastyk wrote: >And historical study of the ancient past is certainly worthwhile. Many >would say it is logically prior to the understanding of contemporary >culture. Cf. Bronkhorst's writings on the primacy of philological studies. I agree fully. There is no need to study the Indian past just by Indians alone. That too only when the dominant elites produce a history, it creates problems among dalits. Given that philology was unknown to India and history enters Indian soil after the Muslim conquest, new researches by those qualified irrespective of caste or race will be good to let the fresh air. In tackling varna/caste hierarchies and language impositions, these may prove useful. V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Sep 3 10:06:19 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 11:06:19 +0100 Subject: Answer to Mr. Ararwal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227051866.23782.6194817001780520911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Anand Nayak wrote: > I think the modern Indology should lay more accent on the way the > texts are lived (or not-lived) today in India and elsewhere. In most places, and for the most part, scholarship simply doesn't work by dirigism, and thank god for that. Nobody is "in charge" of indological studies. People study what interests them, and if they are lucky, they get the opportunity to teach and write about it. And historical study of the ancient past is certainly worthwhile. Many would say it is logically prior to the understanding of contemporary culture. Cf. Bronkhorst's writings on the primacy of philological studies. All the best, Dominik From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Sep 3 09:10:13 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 11:10:13 +0200 Subject: SV: My 'Threat' to Dr. Thomspon Message-ID: <161227051868.23782.11649538326703250688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal [SMTP:vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 03. september 1999 01:05: > I am not at all satisfied with your response. How dare you even accuse me of > such a thing? Have you yourself not made scurrilous remarks against a fellow > listmember's wife in June? Please be more specific. I donot even know where Dr. Thompson lives and > what he does. I did not suggest that you would personally turn up on Dr. Thompson's doorstep. What you have presented, is in my opinion a veiled threat, an attempt at intimidation suggesting that "something may happen if....". > (To me, the White race does not have a good reputation). This is a racist remark. I do not speak as a representative of the "White race". My views are personal. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Sep 3 10:12:41 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 11:12:41 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: Date of the Buddha and RV In-Reply-To: <19990902153307.9722.rocketmail@web306.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227051871.23782.7626436269330240684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Madhuresan (and everyone), When responding to an INDOLOGY posting, please do not quote the previous posting at length, especially if your contribution is just a line or two. Edit the original posting down to the particular sentence you wish to respond to. If you want to respond to it all, as seems the case in your current posting, then don't cite the original at all. Everyone can see the original if they want. This will help with our continuing bandwidth problem. With thanks, Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Sep 3 10:48:55 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 11:48:55 +0100 Subject: ATI, rant vs cant In-Reply-To: <37CFBC33.6183@del3.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227051873.23782.3407482111294134919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, Bharat Gupt wrote: > Ayurveda in its conceptual form is much older than Hypokratos or his > tradition. This is not the case. The "conceptual form" of ayurveda is hard to date, but it is apparently tied up with early developments in nyaya, samkhya, and vaisesika. These are certainly not "much older than Hippocrates". > As the humour and dosha theories are so specific and nearly identical > in both the sytems The likeness between them gets weaker the closer one looks. The Greek humoral system is much more fluid than is usually realized. In the Hippocratic corpus there are some discussions which assume two, not four humours, and in general we see a system in formation, rather than a finished product. It is really Galen who promotes the Aristotelian version of the humoral system (hot/cold wet/dry) into the fixed form which it adopted for the rest of history. The ayurvedic humoral system too is not quite as clear as is often thought. Meulenbeld long ago established that a four- not three-humour arrangement is used in Sanskrit veterinary texts, and it is also well known that Susruta and some commentators are tempted to consider blood as a humour. Then there is the question of what these humoral substances actually are, and the Greeks and Indians have different ideas about this too. The Indians have "yellow bile" (pitta exchange is only the explanation. Exchange is not the only explanation. All the best, Dominik Wujastyk From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Sep 3 12:16:51 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 12:16:51 +0000 Subject: ATI, rant vs cant Message-ID: <161227051862.23782.14334911377313158703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Bharat Gupt wrote: > > > > > THE TRANSFER OF AURVEDIC CONCEPTS TO SHAPE THE HIPPOKRATIC IDEAS IS > > > ANOTHER. > > > > Dear Dr Gupt, > > > > I would be the happiest scholar if I could find solid evidence of a > > transmission between Indian and Greek medicine, in either direction. There > > are hints here and there: > > > > [PS, may I suggest that you don't use capital letters for everything? It > > gives the impressions of shouting, and suggests that you are writing in a > > convulsion of apoplectic choler, which I'm hoping is not the case :-)] > > > > -- > > Dominik Wujastyk > > Founder, INDOLOGY list Dear Dr. Wujastyk, My posting was on the criss-cross nature of the development of Indo-European entity, in which like the Egyptian impact on Greece, I had taken the Ayurvedic example. Ayurveda in its conceptual form is much older than Hypokratos or his tradition. As the humour and dosha theories are so specific and nearly identical in both the sytems along with concepts of saucha and katharsis, exchange is only the explanation. Specific exchanges like in astrology need not be the only criteria in my view. AS FOR THE CAPITAL LETTERS I USE THEM ONLY TO DISTINGUISH THEM FROM THE CITED TEXTS. BUT NOW THAT THEY THREATEN TO APPEAR AS APOPLECTIC CHOLER TO A MEDICALLY IMAGINATIVE PERSON LIKE YOURSELF AND MAY LIKE WISE APPEAR AS PREACHING FROM THE PULPIT TO THE SPIRITUALLY INCLINED, I am happy and content to be in the lower case. Bharat Gupt Asc. Prof. Delhi University. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 19:18:24 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 12:18:24 -0700 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051902.23782.16530705738691367623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: >P. Olivelle, upaniSads, OUP, p. xxxvi >[footnote 21] >"Much of the chronology of the upani.sads and of other ancient >texts depends on the date of the Buddha's death. ...." > >I just extended this reasoning to RV date. > This is not sound. Leaving aside the argument that the Vedas are timeless and apaurusheya, it is clearly accepted that there are many layers to these texts. The dates of the Upanishads are related in some way to that of the Buddha, but there is no hard rule that fixes the number of centuries between the oldest strata of RV and the death of Buddha. There are those who extend such reasoning about relative dates in the opposite direction. For example, they argue that Buddha lived in 1800 BCE, so that Sankara should have lived around 500 BCE. They are clearly wrong, and so is the attempt to fix the interval between RV and Buddha. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Sep 3 12:27:31 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 12:27:31 +0000 Subject: ATI, cant vs rant Message-ID: <161227051864.23782.17047353845417918440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sep 1999, Bharat Gupt wrote: > > > INDIA IS A PLACE WHERE THE VEDAS AND THE SHRUTI-SMRITI TRADITION HAS > > BEEN LIVED (NOT STUDIED OR MUSEUMISED OR INDOLOGISED) AND STILL IS THE > > MAJORTY FAITH.[etc.] > > Dear Dr Gupt, > > Surely we need to make a distinction between scholarship and popular > belief. This forum is a scholarly one, aimed at universtity-level > researchers...... > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list Dear Dr. Wujastyk, I do not argue for any concession to popular views or to majority faith and I am certainly thankful to the scholarship of this forum from which I hope to keep on learning. But my intention was to point out that a culture still practising the vedic traditions (indeed in a transformed shape but no less valid for that reason) is bound to sceptically confront the transitory nature of conclusions drawn from research that keeps changing with every generation of researchers. Till Mortimer Wheeler, Mohenjodaro was the site which decided that much about Aryan invasion of India. With many other sites dug up now, a revision of the hypothesis is underway. For those who are practioners of the Vedic tradition the implications of historical research are very different than they are for Indologists, Indian or otherwise. For the academic, it is a matter of re-arranging data, but for the practioner it is adjusting to a "new" ancestory. The true believer does not want any concession from rational inquiry. Vedas will not become any less holy if it is established that they were composed outside India. But for the practioner things are much more intricate than just changing academic positions. My purpose behind mentioning Indians as practioners was to highlight this difference. And it is for this reason that I will dare to disagree with you "that a confessional adherence to a particular set of ideas is incompatible with the academic study of those ideas." The tribal lives the idea, the anthropologist uses the idea for a different agenda. But this as we know is an endless debate, yet unavoidable in the present situation. Bharat Gupt From GthomGt at CS.COM Fri Sep 3 16:30:21 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 12:30:21 -0400 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051896.23782.18339753923881271174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think that Madhav Deshpande's point is that in establishing a relative chronology the terminus ad quem [the latest possible date] has to be set independently of the terminus a quo [the earliest possible date]. I think that this is correct. The date of the Buddha is usually considered the terminus ad quem of Vedic literature. So if this date needs to be adjusted, so too will be the date of the end of the Vedic period. But the beginning of the Vedic period [terminus a quo] should not be measured on the basis of what is perceived to be a reasonable length of time for the full development of the literature. Judgments about the reasonable length of time for the development of Vedic literature are clearly impressionistic and subjective, as previous list discussion has amply demonstrated. A solid terminus a quo must be based on completely independent criteria. And this confronts us with an entirely different set of problems. George Thompson From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Fri Sep 3 11:21:23 1999 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 14:21:23 +0300 Subject: tohna river In-Reply-To: <19990827131417.32714.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227051878.23782.18180068680878980330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V. Iyer wrote: > Sri. R. Raghava Aiyangar in a 1908 tamil article >in the research jl., centamiz (founded by Ramnad Sethupathis) >quotes many poems that write tozunai for yamuna. RR says >that Ptolemy uses tOhna. Due to tamil alphabets, it could >mean dohna as well. You should have mentioned that the reference came from Tamil source, so I could have checked also names with D- (but the h is still a problem). Perhaps the river-name meant by RA is what was given as Doanas by McCrindle (founded on the old edition by Nobbe) in Ptolemy 7, 2, 7 and again 7, 2, 11. The critical edition by Renou (1925) gives Daonas as the best variant. But this river is situated in Southeast Asia and has been usually identified as the Mekong (Tomaschek 1905, Gerini 1909, Volz 1911, Berthelot 1930, Schulz 1951), occasionally (but, I think, unconvincingly) as the Brahmaputra (McCrindle 1885, Herrmann 1938). >Does Diamounas have any variants? Like Doulounas, Diolunas, etc.,? Foreign names were often difficult and suffered much in hands of the scribes, but for some reason Diamounas is transmitted with practically no variants (Diamnas in Latin translation). The Yamuna is also mentioned by Arrian, Indica 4, 3 as Iobares (usually corrected to Iomanes) and by Pliny as Iomanes. It is interesting to note that Iomanes seems to go back (through the contemporary histories of Alexander) to Sanskrit YamunA, while Ptolemy's Diamounas probably corresponds to Prakrit JamunA. Regards Klaus Klaus Karttunen Institute for Asian and African Studies Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094 From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 23:20:57 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 16:20:57 -0700 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051904.23782.7225210452522996820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Fosse: when comparative material from other I-E cultures are similar to Vedic material (e.g. the purusha myth, which has a counterpart in Norse religion), we may assume that that material goes back to the common I-E period (unless there are good reasons for assuming a loan). VA: Even ancient non-IE cultures like the Chinese have the Purusha Myth. When the texts of Scandinavians are hardly more than a millenium old, what is the proof that these Norse legends are several millenia old? Plus, why not assume the third alternative--independent origin and development. This is common even in science (Eg. Laws of Electrochemistry discovered independently by two persons.) For that matter, the Agastya Shilpatantra Samhita (manuscript at BORI Pune) describes a device very similar to the Voltaic Cell. There is no loan here, no common origin. Dr. Fosse: Bernard Sergent has suggested that Vedic culture (at least the Brahmana stage) represents an amalgamation of Aryan and Harappan culture. If this is correct - and it seems a tempting solution to me - then certain elements with an Harappan background may be as old - or older - than the Harappan culture, and consequently older than the Aryan migration into India. VA: This could also suggest a pre-IVC date for the Mantras. Read a review of his book at Dr. Elst's site. Dr. Fosse:......although the astronomical data are not quite as clear and straightforward as they sometimes seem in the debates on this list. Jacobi's views... VA: Jacobi is an old author. The introduction to a recent edition of the Vedanga Jyotisha (Yajurvediya) are written by a Vaidik proficient in Astronomy and he has demonstrated that the text belongs to the 14th Cent. B.C.E. Decades back, the astronmical evidence was analyzed minutely in several articles in ABORI and thereby, the TB and the SB were dated as early as 28th Cent. .B.C.E. (and this accords well with the Indian tradition) Dr. Fosse: If we are dating the Vedas as they appear today, in the linguistic garb that we find in our editions, then they are not necessarily much older than 1000 BCE. VA: That is an uproven assertion on which even the Linguists have not reached a consensus. Remember that only about 25% of Avesta is extant. The Indologists have studied only the Shakalya Rigveda Samhita. Hardly any studies on the Pada and Krama. Even the manuscripts of the other Shakhas of Rigveda that are extant -Baskhala, Samkhayana and Ashvalayana (under publication) have not been seen by Indologists. And besides the usual rearrangement of verses, they do show some linguistic peculiarities. For instances, Shankhyana replaces the sound ccha with chha and shows numerous textual variants from the vulgate. They have their own Arshanukramanis and Padapatha (manuscripts are available)--different from that of the vulgate. Till all this is done, such assertions cannot be made. In any case, such a date is arrived using assumptions (date of Zoroaster etc. ) which are questionable ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Sep 3 16:49:37 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 18:49:37 +0200 Subject: SV: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051898.23782.2222833120026267368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson [SMTP:GthomGt at CS.COM] skrev 03. september 1999 18:30: > > A solid terminus a quo must be based on completely independent criteria. And > this confronts us with an entirely different set of problems. I concur with George Thompon's view, but may I suggest a few principles: 1. We have to separate linguistic form from contents. Some of the Rigvedic contents are obviously very old, and when comparative material from other I-E cultures are similar to Vedic material (e.g. the purusha myth, which has a counterpart in Norse religion), we may assume that that material goes back to the common I-E period (unless there are good reasons for assuming a loan). 2. Elements that are common to Iranian, but not to other branches of I-E, may presumable be regarded as Indo-Iranian and would at least go back to the common Indo-Iranian period. 3. Bernard Sergent has suggested that Vedic culture (at least the Brahmana stage) represents an amalgamation of Aryan and Harappan culture. If this is correct - and it seems a tempting solution to me - then certain elements with an Harappan background may be as old - or older - than the Harappan culture, and consequently older than the Aryan migration into India. An amalgamation of traditions could explain some of the astronomical data that seem difficult to reconcile with the Indo-Aryan chronology (although the astronomical data are not quite as clear and straightforward as they sometimes seem in the debates on this list. Jacobi's views on the matter represent a complex set of inferences that are not necessarily correct). So what are we dating? If we are dating the Vedas as they appear today, in the linguistic garb that we find in our editions, then they are not necessarily much older than 1000 BCE. But if we look at the constituent elements, the situation is much different. Maybe the question of Vedic chronology would become more rewarding if we concentrated upon its constituent parts rather than upon its outer termini (ad quem, ab quo). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Sep 3 19:24:00 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 19:24:00 +0000 Subject: New Positions at Asian Studies, UT Austin Message-ID: <161227051889.23782.15534282034881932249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kamal Raj Adhikary wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > Yesterday, I had sent one ad with a URL. That URL is changed, so I > am sending it again. The nature of the ad is that same though. I apologize > for the inconvenience. > > POSITION IN SOUTH ASIAN STUDIES > at The University of Texas at Austin > > Please send a letter of interest, current CV, three letters of reference, > recent papers/publications, and relevant syllabi drafts to: > > South Asia Search Committee > Department of Asian Studies, WCH 4.134 > University of Texas at Austin > Austin, Texas 78712-1194 > > The closing date for applications is November 22, 1999. >Dear Shri Adhikary, I curious to know if, as a matter of policy, the Department of Asian Studies would like consider a person like me for the job who does not have degree in Sanskrit but has demonstrated proficiency through published books, including the translation of an ancient text into English, and 25 years of teaching experience in literature, theatre and Indological areas. I can teach besides Sanskrit and its literature and theatrology, Hindi literature, sitar and musicology as well. >From your ad it seems to me that the position is for new entrants. Please clarify. My wegpage has my cv and many other details. Looking forward to your preliminary response Cordially, Bharat Gupt Associate Professor, Delhi Univ. PO BOX 8518 , ASHOK VIHAR , DELHI 110052 , INDIA tel:00-91-11-724-1490 , fax 741-5658 bharatgupt at vsnl.com webpage: http://personal.vsnl.com/bharatgupt/ From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Sep 4 01:20:06 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 01:20:06 +0000 Subject: Wrongly addressed mail Message-ID: <161227051906.23782.2629304977616167678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I regret the personal mail meant for the Univ of Texas sent by mistake to the list. Bharat Gupt From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 4 18:16:37 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 11:16:37 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051923.23782.10494925760896464666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >- Out of Africa : Molecular genetics has almost conclusively proven that > all humans came out of Africa. The regional evolution models have been > discarded, even by Rushton et al. This must be disproven by the AIT > skeptics, for it automatically implies large-scale migrations across > continents, and implies an African home for Aryans. It might help all sides of this debate to keep some basic scientific facts in mind here. The timescales for the theories of Aryan homeland vs. humans coming out of Africa are different by orders of magnitude. The theory that humans evolved first in Africa couldn't care less about whether Aryans came into India or whether they came out of India. As it stands, the theory of where and when humans first evolved supports neither hard AIT nor hard OIT. Those who take great pride in their own disciplines should treat other academic disciplines with respect. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Sep 4 16:27:33 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 12:27:33 -0400 Subject: announcing a new publication Message-ID: <161227051921.23782.6295892947178343917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am pleased to announce the following publication: MILINDAPANHA-ATTHAKATHA (in Pali) by Thaton Mingun Zetawun Sayadaw alias U Narada Mahathera (of Burma) Transcribed and Edited by Madhav M. Deshpande pp. 34+431 Studia Philologica Buddhica Monograph Series XIII Tokyo : The International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 1999 From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sat Sep 4 06:58:26 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 12:28:26 +0530 Subject: Aryan invasion debate In-Reply-To: <01bef58d$fb7fc080$1001703e@deze-computer> Message-ID: <161227051908.23782.14010362839217864847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Koenraad Elst wrote: > I am the lone indologist cited among the Aryan invasion skeptics Dr. Elst, It is good that you have now joined this forum. I am an advocate of the hard AIT, and would like to see how you respond to our points against the `pseudo-secular' soft-AIT and the `hindutva' no-AIT. These theories run into conflict with certain recently established facts :- - Out of Africa : Molecular genetics has almost conclusively proven that all humans came out of Africa. The regional evolution models have been discarded, even by Rushton et al. This must be disproven by the AIT skeptics, for it automatically implies large-scale migrations across continents, and implies an African home for Aryans. - Negroid Sudras : Again, recent genetics (Bamshad et al. of the Univ. of Utah and collaborators at the Univ. of Hyderabad) has shown close affinity between Sudroids and African Negroes. A huge corpus of research in other fields also bears this out ( all papers' reference is given at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1335/Anthro/sud_afr.html) Soft and No-AIT models silently assume that the two points given above are wrong. If so, all the arguments given at the URL located above need to be refuted by you (there are a lot of them) and the p-secs. Please explain : - How did Caucasoids develop high nasal indices (ie. how they got braod noses) black skin and thick lips to become Sudroids by `climate'? - How did Caucasoids develop prognathism by standing in the sun ? - Why is Murungu (East African God) worshipped in South India ? Why is the boomerang used by Australoid, Sudroid and Africoid Negroes ? - Why are Rhinos, python, elephants found in both Africa and South India ? If animals could come and go from Africa to India, why not humans ? Surely, polar bears cannot become elephants by standing in the Sun ? These are only some of the points against your no-AIT theory from anthropology. There are of course, others from linguistics, but they are not `hard' points like the ones above. The pseudo-secular (Congress-supported) soft-AIT of Thapar et al goes down the drain when trying to explain `Why did the Negroes leave North India to make way for Aryans ?' The only answer is: for the same reason the American Indians `left' North and South America for Europeans and for the same reasons Australoid Blacks `left' Australia for Anglo-Saxons. From this follows the logical correctness of the hard AIT. The continuing racial wars between Arya and Sudra (Sri Lanka: Sinhalese vs. Tamil, Bihar: Aryan Ranvir Sena vs. Dalit Maoists) shows that the Vedic race wars continue today and are the final nail in the coffin of the soft AIT. Yours Sincerely, Samar From namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 4 20:36:22 1999 From: namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM (Namrata Bose) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 13:36:22 -0700 Subject: RV and date of Buddha Message-ID: <161227051925.23782.13698441278531804696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am a new member to the list. I have been following the debate on the relationship between the date of Buddha and RV, and being a Historian myself, I am inclined to agree with Ganesan. My argument is that we know that the teachings of Buddha were compiled within 2 centuries of his death. Thus, we have this massive Tripitaka in front of us on one hand, and the massive literature of the Vedas on the other hand. To help us with the dates now, no matter what the date of Buddha is, we can calculate at least the relative date of RV. Why? Because we have the solid linguistic evidence and massive data collected over 150 years. This data has enabled us to discover 3 subratrums below Nahali one below the other (by Kuiper, who is 'one of the greatest living Indologists according to Witzel:1995--Collected writings of Kuiper) and has lead to many other path breaking discoveries. For example, we have been able to draw up a massive tree of Indo European languages, interrelating then in space, time and geneology via proto or extinct, or hypothesized languages. We have been able to fix the date of RV at 1000 B.C.E. We have proven the migration of Aryans into the Indian Subcontinent. We have found the missing links between Avesta and RV. We have also made other definitive statements like 'Tocharian separated early from PIE in contrast to IA' (Hock; 1999). And wherever Archaelological evidence (or lack thereof) has failed to support our ingenious theories, we have actually demonstrated the inadequacy of Archaeology itself in deciding such matters (Romila Thapar and Shereen Ratnagar) When we have made such a skillful use of missing links, extinct hypothesized languages and probable conjectures to dismiss all other evidences, then why cannot we decide this issue here even more boldly because we actually have both the sets of texts here--the Pali Tripitaka and the RV (and other Vedic texts). Since we do not have to rely on intelligent deductions now but just have to apply these perfect, infallible principles, let us decided the date of RV once for all by fixing the date of Buddha. Or since we have already reached a scholarly consensus that RV was given its present form by 1000 BC, let us then calculate and decide something on the date of Buddha using the massive linguistic data of 150 years. Thereafter, the date of Shankaracharya. Since the evidence of Philology is so massive and perfect, we can even cross check if Mahatma Gandhi was actually born in 1869. Namrata Bose ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 4 20:40:23 1999 From: namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM (Namrata Bose) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 13:40:23 -0700 Subject: Genetics and Mr. Abbas Message-ID: <161227051927.23782.8325107332883705480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Mr. Abbas. I am glad to see your ISLAMIC name in this forum. After all, not many MUSLIMS are interested in Indology and you have made a bold foray into this Jahil area of studies. I understand your frustration at the fanatical attitude of these opponents of AIT. How can they understand the suffering that the SC/ST's, OBC's, Jains, Buddhists and Muslims have collectively undergone because of Hindu and Brahmin cunning!! I am all with you!! Namrata Bose ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Sat Sep 4 12:08:50 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 14:08:50 +0200 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051911.23782.11761643882102081296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Samar Abbas, When time permits, I'll study your data more closely. For now: 1) "Out of Africa": I have never seen an argumentation against the AIT (though there are other, non-AIT-related such argumentations, in India like in the West) which denied the general theory of evolution of mankind, including the African origin of mankind. Sure, all Indians, including the white Kashmiris and yellow Nagas and black Tamils, originated in Africa, maybe 100,000 years ago or so. I have no problem with that though I think you are overconfident about its universal acceptance: B Sergent (PhD in anthropology) at least argues that the non-African Homo Erectus has left genetic traces in the xanthodermic race. Not being a specialist, I'll refrain from voicing an opinion on that; at any rate, all Indians ultimately descend from inhabitants of the common homeland of mankind. The whitish type must have developed or "appeared" in northwestern India in the same period as it did in Mesopotamia, which is in the same climate belt, long before the date assigned to the Aryan invasion. Though this type made up most of the Indo-Aryan speakers in the Vedic age, I am not at all sure that the original Proto-IE speakers belonged to this type. The IE language family has crossed racial frontiers on several occasions (regardless of which homeland and original race one assumes), and may have already done so in the pre-Vedic age. Talageri posits an IE "invasion" in the Harappan area coming from the Gangetic plain, which has a much less whitish physical type of inhabitants; Some Tamils say Manu Vaivasvata came from South India and sought refuge in the north from the rising post-Glaciation sea, so that he was black but then mixed with the lighter people up there, thus creating the mongrel race of Proto-Indo-Europeans, etc. 2) The Utah/Hyderabad research on genetics and caste: I've only seen the brief report in the Indian press, which said, confirming many earlier studies and what anyone can see with his own eyes, that upper and lower caste Indians are much closer to each other genetically than either is to any foreign population, e.g. Panjabi Brahmins (say, Arun Shourie) are closer to Panjabi Chamars (say, Kanshi Ram) than the first is to the Iranian or the second is to the African or even the South-Indian of any caste. That is also what Dr. Ambedkar had argued at some length. However: 3) The Afro-Dravidian connection: apart from ultimate African origins at the dawn of mankind, I have nothing against much more recent connections between Africa and a section of the Indian population, notably the Dravidians. Whether it is Murungu/Murugan, or the board game palankulli/manancal, or the lexical and grammatical similarities between Dravidian and a number of Sahel languages, or even genetic "isoglosses", I'll concede that Afro-Dravidian connection gladly (though you'll have to cross swords with the Tamil chauvinists about which was the country of origin). It makes no difference to the homeland question of IE. Indeed, one of many possibilities is that the Aryan-Dravidian encounter was one between Aryan natives and Dravidian invaders. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Sat Sep 4 12:31:58 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 14:31:58 +0200 Subject: SV: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051913.23782.10019711309132527060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Fosse, The remarkable continuity between Vedic and Harappan culture, given susbtance by ever more discoveries, is a cornerstone of Asko Parpola's explanations of stellar lore in Harappa: more often than not, he explains seemingly astronomical data from Harappa with related data in vedic literature, on the assumption that the Vedas have incorporated native Harappan knowledge and beliefs. However, this seems to be a case of multiplying entities beyond necessity. If Vedic and Harappan have so much in common, why not assume that they are two instances of one single civilization? One possible argument for multiplying the entities and positing the non-kinship of Vedic and Harappan would be any proof that the Harappans spoke a non-Indo-Aryan language; this language would then obviously show up in the Vedas, esp. in the cultural lore borrowed from the Harappans. But that borrowed cultural vocabulary (e.g. in names of constellations and astronomical concepts) is conspicuously missing in Vedic literature (much in contrast with e.g. the Greek loanwords in later astrological treatises). Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Sat Sep 4 14:28:10 1999 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 16:28:10 +0200 Subject: SV: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051915.23782.13881589552701487429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Koenraad Elst wrote: > > Prof. Fosse, > > One possible argument for multiplying the entities and > positing the non-kinship of Vedic and Harappan would be any proof that the > Harappans spoke a non-Indo-Aryan language; this language would then > obviously show up in the Vedas, esp. in the cultural lore borrowed from the > Harappans. But that borrowed cultural vocabulary (e.g. in names of > constellations and astronomical concepts) is conspicuously missing in Vedic > literature (much in contrast with e.g. the Greek loanwords in later > astrological treatises). > Also conspiciously missing is an ancient layer of non-Indo-Aryan place-names and geographical names in the entire area of the Harappan civilisation. Erik Seldeslachts University of Ghent, Belgium From kekai at JPS.NET Sun Sep 5 04:22:04 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 21:22:04 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051917.23782.6810761573999176257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Samar, As you already know through our personal correspondence, I am much more in agreement with the theories you have offered than probably most other people on this list (at least the active contributors). Also, at one time I probably would have agreed somewhat with you on the 'hard AIT' theory. However, my research over the last half decade and new discoveries now make me completely doubt any 'Aryan' invasion, although I don't dispute the presence of Indo-European ethnic types. Here are a few of the main reasons: 1. Practically no 'hard' archaeological evidence of an *invasion.* I am careful here to distinguish invasion from mere migrations or mingling of people. Much of the earlier cited evidence has been refuted. Also, there are significant sites from Northern India dating to the relevant periods suggested for the hypothetical 'invasion.' 2. Whatever cultures are suggested as 'invading' Aryans just don't pan out. The oft-cited Painted Grey Ware culture were sedentary people who depended predominantly on rice cultivation and pig raising. They made Asura-type pottery and are not associated with chariots or horse sacrifices. Although some horse remains have been found among them, that animal does not seem to have been of particular importance. The iron working of PGW is similar to that found in early East Indian rather than Central Asian sites. And the PGW culture, up to the last data I've read, does not overlap IVC. The before and after anthropological data from this and surrounding regions just doesn't jibe with any form of intrusion of the type commonly suggested. (continued in next post) From kekai at JPS.NET Sun Sep 5 04:54:27 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 21:54:27 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051919.23782.14760157099769895484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (continued from last post) 3. Samar suggested that there the present Aryan-Dravidian conflict supports the idea of an invasion. I'm not sure if this is the case. There are different groups present in India, but not all got there via invasion. The roots of some of the current hostilities are of more modern origin or aren't necessarily racial in origin. A lot of the modern color-preferences, for example, can be traced more to Islamic and Western periods, than to the classical times where both dark and fair complexion were usually considered attractive. For example, in the epics you have the dark heroes Rama, Krishna and Draupadi. The arguments of Risley that one could distinguish castes by complexion and nasal indice have been refuted with the possible exception of the northwest region. And the latter instance need not be linked back to a proposed invasion three thousand years ago or so. In my opinion, the movement of people in through this region was much easier in early periods especially after the fall of IVC. Natural back and forth flow could have resulted in the establishment of population centers between India and regions to the West and Northwest. One need not suggest an armed juggernaut as the cause of demographic changes and indeed there is nothing to support such a theory. Eventually, conflicts could arise between different ethnic populations. As an example, I might point to the case of Nepal. How does one account for the dizzying array of ethnic groups in that country? How often does an invasion scenario arise in such explanations? Is the Dravidian, Indo-European, Himalayan, Austric and other presence there always to be ascribed to military incursion? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Sun Sep 5 09:08:13 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 23:08:13 -1000 Subject: Aryan invasion debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227051931.23782.16872981778900608117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 4 Sep 1999, Samar Abbas wrote: > - Why is Murungu (East African God) worshipped in South India ? Because we are Catholic. :-) > Why is the boomerang used by Australoid, Sudroid and Africoid Negroes Because it comes back. > - Why are Rhinos, python, elephants found in both Africa and South India ? The elephants were fleeing southwards from the cold North (I presume you know about the famous frozen Mammoths found in Siberia). :-) > If animals could come and go from Africa to India, why not humans ? Visa problems. Best regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Sun Sep 5 09:13:35 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 11:13:35 +0200 Subject: Closing remarks to Dr. Vassilkov (& Mr. Agarwal) Message-ID: <161227051934.23782.5053104208153734148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Zydenbos, You did make the statement cited (not quoted literally) by Rajaram (in the new issue of the Journal of the Mythic Society, Bangalore) and then by Vishal Agarwal. It is in the very article you refer to: "An obscurantist argument", Indian Express, 12-12-1993, of which I have a copy. You include Rajaram in "an Indian tendency to create something parallel", viz. parallel to "the fantasy of an 'Aryan nation'", referred to by Romila Thapar (whom you defend against Rajaram's criticism) who correctly attributes such a fantasy to Nazi Germany. I have discussed the debate between you and Rajaram in a chapter of my book Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate (Aditya Prakashan 1999), also available as a separate article on my website. What is not discussed there is why Rajaram mentions "Zydenbos (or his ghostwriter)". Since you see ghostwriters even on this weblist, this point deserves explanation. Someone at the IE office told Rajaram that the article was in fact written by Rajesh Kochar (who thinks that Mohenjo Daro was the Ramayana's Lanka and that Ayodhya was in Afghanistan, with Rama being a leader of the Aryan invasion), who had been defeated by Rajaram in a public debate on the AIT some time before and was smarting for revenge. You refer in your article to a lecture in Mysore by Prof. SR Rao, one of the numerous Indian archaeologists who have rejected the AIT, and a friend of Rajaram's. People present at the lecture told Rajaram that Kochar was present while you were not (since you lived in Mysore at the time, I guess they may well be mistaken about that). Moreover, the use of Indian English and the reference to the non-historian J. Nehru as an argument of authority also indicate that the author was Indian (though, speaking from experience, I am aware that foreign residents easily adopt the Indian style). However, you yourself told me in Madison 1996 that the article was indeed authored by you, and you seemed an honest man to me. So, that's one point where I'm in your camp rather than Rajaram's. I also appreciate that you disown a statement in which you compare an AIT skeptic to Hitler. That is indeed a trite comparison, grossly unjust in most cases. For an AIT defender, it would be a particularly inept comparison to make, given the centrality of the AIT in the worldview of, yes, Hitler. In Nazi schoolbooks, the AIT figured as the perfect illustration of the racist worldview,-- for details, see the article on my website. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Sun Sep 5 06:16:41 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 11:46:41 +0530 Subject: Closing remarks to Dr. Vassilkov (& Mr. Agarwal) Message-ID: <161227051929.23782.5246478588845686430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal wrote: > Dear Dr. Vassilkov, > By dismissing your opponents as ' diletanti', you have unwiittingly mocked > the Engineers and Scientists in this list like Dr. N. Ganesan and > Vidyasamkar Sunderesan who are not professional Indologists either, but > whose posts are highly informed, and well researched. I must admire your > ability to judge a book (and its author as well) by reading a mere 25% of > the review and without exhibiting any signficant knowledge of this issue. Mr. Vassilkov: is it really true, as scientist (sorry, Mr. Agarwal, I see no reason to use a capital letter) Agarwal says, that you have seriously read a full 25% of that item? If that is so, then I am amazed. You will have read far too much. The readers may wonder what makes me say this. On Sun, 29 Aug 1999, Mr. Agarwal sent our list something that contained these words from a review, said (by scientist Agarwal) to be by scientist N.S. Rajaram: <> I knew immediately that this review had to be trash, because I have never made such a statement. Let us assume that Agarwal did post that message (and not that Agarwal has a ghostwriter, who posted it) and that Rajaram did write the above words (we must be careful here: these days, all sorts of things happen. You see, Agarwal, despite his presumed scientificness, did not give the bibliographical reference to that piece of trash. He apparently has a few *very* basic things to learn before he lectures to others about what is academic). What does this tell us about Rajaram? I challenge anyone here (Rajaram; Agarwal; anyone) to provide us with the evidence that I made the quoted comparison. If Rajaram indeed wrote the above quote, then I have not the slightest hesitation in hereby declaring him a pathetic liar. Of course everyone has permission to quote me on this. This is a public statement. My only request is that I am quoted truthfully. Perhaps Agarwal can give us the address of the publisher of the review by 'scientist' Rajaram, and the precise bibliographical data. Rajaram (if we assume it really is him) grossly overestimates me and my importance by mentioning me in one sentence with Romila Thapar and Shireen Ratnagar. My only claim to fame is that 6 years ago he wrote a miserably xenophobic article in the Indian Express newspaper, and I replied to it in that same newspaper (and with that, to my knowledge, the matter ended in that paper). I believe there is only one reason for his special ire towards me: that I had the guts to talk back to him from his own back yard in India, and that too in that widely read newspaper. The average mleccha does not do that. I hope that these remarks of mine shed some more light on the obscurantist ways of Rajaram (assuming that he wrote that grotesque, mendacious sentence in that review). They may give his admirers something to think about. RZ From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Sun Sep 5 19:37:25 1999 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 12:37:25 -0700 Subject: Genetics and Mr. Abbas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227051951.23782.17333346156060690366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas writes: [...] > Welcome to the forum. I have always seen India as a nation of immigrants > like the USA, and feel Indians should take pride in that. However, the > honor of defending India's most oppressed minority belongs to you, for > none of the peoples you listed above are more persecuted than Indian > women - > Community Killings in India (1947-1999) > Muslims 70,000 > Sikhs 200,000 > Christians 300,000 > WOMEN 50,000,000 Are you trying to suggest that not a single Hindu has been killed in India since Independence ? I find that a fascinating insight into your view of India, and a question surrounding your scholarly motives in studying Indology. Perhaps you might want to read literature highlighting the issues surrounding the genocide of Kashmiri Pandits in Kashmir and the genocide of the Hindus in Bangladesh and Pakistan. The "numbers" you have posted above will pale in comparison. Whatever your ulterior motives for studying Indology, I appeal to you, please do not insult the dead like this. Surely Islam also teaches that in some form or the other. With warm regards, ~sumedh From torfats at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Sep 5 21:03:02 1999 From: torfats at HOTMAIL.COM (ravindran sri) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 14:03:02 -0700 Subject: Genetics and Mr. Abbas Message-ID: <161227051953.23782.10015816910477189183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Aditya, I am not sure of what you mean by "pure academics". Is there Academics devoid of politics? Is there scholarship devoid of politics? Mr. Abbas and Ms. Bose have had the gumption to state something that they beleive in. While you have every right to disagree with their conclusions (in this case I dont see how you can), to say that academics is oustside or byond politics is downright fascistic. Is the injustice against dalits and women merely "perceived"? Rvaindran.S >From: "Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic" >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: Genetics and Mr. Abbas >Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 15:16:41 -0400 > >Samar Abbas wrote: > > > > > Welcome to the forum. I have always seen India as a nation of immigrants > > like the USA, and feel Indians should take pride in that. However, the > > honor of defending India's most oppressed minority belongs to you, for > > none of the peoples you listed above are more persecuted than Indian > > women - > >As I understand the purpose of this list is not polemics or to defend >any one against anybody's perceived injustice. > >Many of the subscribers are pure academics and are in no involved in >political actions. > > > Community Killings in India (1947-1999) > > > > Muslims 70,000 > > Sikhs 200,000 > > Christians 300,000 > > WOMEN 50,000,000 > > >Do you have similar figures of minorities mistreated in Muslim/ >christian /jewish countries? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Sep 5 14:34:30 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 14:34:30 +0000 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051969.23782.10834067392123509758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > It might help all sides of this debate to keep some basic scientific facts > in mind here. The timescales for the theories of Aryan homeland vs. humans > coming out of Africa are different by orders of magnitude. The theory that > humans evolved first in Africa couldn't care less about whether Aryans came > into India or whether they came out of India.> > Vidyasankar I am glad this has been pointed out. The difference in time scale is so obvious that I was convinced that Samar Abbas was actually joking as he seems to be also in comparing the present day caste struggle to the ancient arya-dravida (anaasaah) conflict by taking the hard AIT argument to their in India to the utterl logical conclusion like arguments at the racist-fascist sites of which gave the URL's in his postings. Bharat Gupt From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sun Sep 5 19:16:41 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 15:16:41 -0400 Subject: Genetics and Mr. Abbas Message-ID: <161227051949.23782.15847708062611527653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > > Welcome to the forum. I have always seen India as a nation of immigrants > like the USA, and feel Indians should take pride in that. However, the > honor of defending India's most oppressed minority belongs to you, for > none of the peoples you listed above are more persecuted than Indian > women - As I understand the purpose of this list is not polemics or to defend any one against anybody's perceived injustice. Many of the subscribers are pure academics and are in no involved in political actions. > Community Killings in India (1947-1999) > > Muslims 70,000 > Sikhs 200,000 > Christians 300,000 > WOMEN 50,000,000 > Do you have similar figures of minorities mistreated in Muslim/ christian /jewish countries? From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Sep 5 13:40:09 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 15:40:09 +0200 Subject: SV: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051936.23782.2294230492004393256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal [SMTP:vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 04. september 1999 01:21: > VA: Even ancient non-IE cultures like the Chinese have the Purusha Myth. > When the texts of Scandinavians are hardly more than a millenium old, what > is the proof that these Norse legends are several millenia old? Plus, why > not assume the third alternative--independent origin and development. This > is common even in science (Eg. Laws of Electrochemistry discovered > independently by two persons.) This is a very real problem which is worth discussing to a larger extent than is often the case. When we encounter similarities in different cultures, we basically have three options: common point of origin (the similarities are "genetic"), loan (the motive has been taken over by one culture from the other culture), and independent origin (e.g. the idea of the world egg is found not only in India and Greece, but also in West Africa where it probably arose independently). I think your question has been answered by Bruce Lincoln in his book "Myth, Cosmos and Society. Indo-European Themes of Creation and Destruction". Basically, the answer to your question lies in the specificities involved. You have to look at the details. I recommend Lincoln's book, which will explain this much better than I can do in a short email. > Dr. Fosse:......although the astronomical data are not quite as clear and > straightforward as they sometimes seem in the debates on > this list. Jacobi's views... > VA: Jacobi is an old author. I mentioned Jacobi as an example because his name has been brought up in the discussion, and because it shows how much some astronomical data depend upon text interpretation. However, I am aware that others have worked on astronomical data. The introduction to a recent edition of the > Vedanga Jyotisha (Yajurvediya) are written by a Vaidik proficient in > Astronomy and he has demonstrated that the text belongs to the 14th Cent. > B.C.E. Decades back, the astronmical evidence was analyzed minutely in > several articles in ABORI and thereby, the TB and the SB were dated as early > as 28th Cent. .B.C.E. (and this accords well with the Indian tradition) > Dr. Fosse: If we are dating the Vedas as they appear today, in the > linguistic garb that we find in our editions, then they are not necessarily > much older than 1000 BCE. I do not claim any proficiency in the astronomical arguments, but I have noticed that western academics with knowledge of the astronomical data are not inclined to regard this evidence as compelling as you do. To the extent that the texts are understood correctly, the astronomical data can be explained in several ways. As for the age of the Veda, the terminus ad quem is really anybody's guess. For all we know, the Rig - or parts of it - may be younger than 1000 BCE. A t.a.q. around the year 1000 BCE seems sensible from what we know. But it *is* an hypothesis, and I am quite willing to reconsider it if good arguments/data are brought forward. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Sep 5 23:27:36 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 16:27:36 -0700 Subject: SV: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051955.23782.17889331047275796922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: Lars Martin Fosse Subject: SV: Date of the Buddha and RV Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 15:40:09 +0200 Vishal Agarwal [SMTP:vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 04. september 1999 01:21: > VA: Even ancient non-IE cultures like the Chinese have the Purusha Myth. Fosse: . I think your question has been answered by Bruce Lincoln in his book "Myth, Cosmos and Society. Indo-European Themes of Creation and Destruction". Basically, the answer to your question lies in the specificities involved. You have to look at the details. I recommend Lincoln's book, which will explain this much better than I can do in a short email. VA: A very detailed response was sent personally in which I cited ancient interpretations of this particular hymn which contrast the meaning given to the other IE versions. I wonder if Lincoln has looked at the text I have referred to you. Comparison of specific details of course assumes that these were preserved over several millenia--something hardly plausible. Personally, I have learned the hard way that reading literature which itself relies much upon secondary literature (like the article by Pashaura Singh on Arya Samaj in the recent volume of Bronkhorst/Deshpande 1999) is quite a waste of time and merely compounds the errors of its own sources. Anyway, rather than have any pre-conceived notions about Lincoln's work, I will go ahead and read it. Rest was sent in my private email due to its length. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Sep 5 18:28:18 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 20:28:18 +0200 Subject: SV: SV: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051947.23782.2570236406643363187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Koenraad Elst [SMTP:ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE] skrev 04. september 1999 14:32: Prof. Fosse, First of all: I am not a professor! Only a humble dr. > The remarkable continuity between Vedic and Harappan culture, given > susbtance by ever more discoveries, is a cornerstone of Asko Parpola's > explanations of stellar lore in Harappa: more often than not, he explains > seemingly astronomical data from Harappa with related data in vedic > literature, on the assumption that the Vedas have incorporated native > Harappan knowledge and beliefs. However, this seems to be a case of > multiplying entities beyond necessity. If Vedic and Harappan have so much > in common, why not assume that they are two instances of one single > civilization? Interpreting the data related to the migration of Indo-Aryans into South Asia in my opinion has to do not only with the data themselves, but with the models we use to organize the data. The "classical" invasion theory was, in my opinion, (and I emphasize that this is a *guess*) influenced by the history of European intrusion into Latin America, where important and impressive cultures were crushed under the influx of European conquistadors bringing with them their own priesthood, which certainly had nothing to learn from the pagans. The new version of the theory is a migration theory emphasizing a slower influx where locals were *co-opted*. In other words, the upper crust of the late Harappan culture amalgamated with the upper crust of the Indo-Aryans, adopting their ideology and adding a bit of their own. This model offers new interpretative possibilities, and is based on a model which can be observed in other cases where cultures merge. So why insist on an "invasion" - or a migration? The reason is of course the language and the cultural elements that Indo-Aryans have in common with other Indo-Europeans. All aspects of this problem would seem to have been thoroughly debated on this list more than a year ago, and I am sure that you are familiar with most of the arguments. I see no point in rehashing them once more. So I suggest a "division of labour": Those on the list who think that the Aryans are indigenous, please go on discussing among yourself! You may for instance try to establish a Great Theory which accounts for the whole Indo-European situation, the spread of the languages, the common cultural features etc. This is what the migrationists/invasionsist have done, and I doubt that you will be heard unless you are able to come up with a counter-model that is intellectually credible. In the mean-time, those of us who don't think that the Indigenist hypothesis has reached anything like maturity should go on debating the migrationist version of the Indo-Aryan question. One possible argument for multiplying the entities and > positing the non-kinship of Vedic and Harappan would be any proof that the > Harappans spoke a non-Indo-Aryan language; this language would then > obviously show up in the Vedas, esp. in the cultural lore borrowed from the > Harappans. But that borrowed cultural vocabulary (e.g. in names of > constellations and astronomical concepts) is conspicuously missing in Vedic > literature (much in contrast with e.g. the Greek loanwords in later > astrological treatises). I disagree with the premise. Concepts may be borrowed, but not necessarily words. Here I would like to refer to Dixon, R. M. W. (1997). The rise and fall of languages. Cambridge, Cambridge University Press. This small book contains a lot of useful information on linguistic questions. It shows, among other things, that there are no absolute laws for borrowing between languages: sometimes, vocabulary is borrowed, sometimes not, sometimes structures, sometime not. Sometimes, both are borrowed. The Indo-Aryans may already have had words for most of the astronomical phenomena that the Harappans taught them about (e.g. constellations), but may have adopted "Harappan concepts and solutions". We simply don't know what happened. But your argument does not automatically follow. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sun Sep 5 15:39:03 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 21:09:03 +0530 Subject: Aryan invasion debate In-Reply-To: <01bef6ce$3f924900$6504703e@deze-computer> Message-ID: <161227051938.23782.439206355253384916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 4 Sep 1999, Koenraad Elst wrote: > Sure, all Indians ... originated in Africa ... The whitish type must > have developed or "appeared" in northwestern India in the same period > as it did in Mesopotamia, which is in the same climate belt, long > before the date assigned to the Aryan invasion. It seems this is a new theory: A branch of Africans migrates to India, then differentiates into the Caucasoid race IN NORTHWEST INDIA from the Afro-Dravidian stock. This model would be consistent with Out of Africa and the Afro-Dravidian connection, and is an interesting proposition. While humans would be of African origin, the Aryans only would be Indian. Is this what you are getting at ? > I'll concede that Afro-Dravidian connection gladly... It makes no difference > to the homeland question of IE. That would only hold for the new OIT you have just proposed ( a differentiation of Aryans from Dravidians in North India). For all other variants of OIT and AIT it is highly crucial. However, the model you proposed above, and the one you propose below are not in conflict with the Afro-Dravidian connection : > Indeed, one of many possibilities is that the Aryan-Dravidian encounter > was one between Aryan natives and Dravidian invaders. This is an intersting model, and would be internally consistent (does not violate genetics, anthropology). There are two possibilities: either the Dravidians invaded by sea from Africa and drove the Aryans north; or the Dravidians invaded via Iran-Gujarat-Maharasthra and then settled in South India, bypassing the main Aryan homelands of Punjab-Ganges Valley. Which version do you favour ? Is there more evidence in favour of such a `Dravidian' invasion ? I think you have put forth some interesting theories in this posting, indeed, they are the best OIT (Out of India) models I have seen to date. However, I think they all need to be elaborated somewhat more. Consistency also demands you choose either one of the `Aryan Differentiation from Dravidians in NW India' or the `Dravidian Invasion Theory'. Yours, Samar From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sun Sep 5 16:17:08 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 21:47:08 +0530 Subject: Aryan invasion debate In-Reply-To: <37D1F782.766679A9@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227051940.23782.15777436917085418807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 4 Sep 1999, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > [M]y research over the last half decade and new discoveries now > make me completely doubt any 'Aryan' invasion, Your change is a remarkable turnaround. I respond to your points below. > There are different groups present in India, but not all got there > via invasion. What about the Thakurs (Tokharians), the Gujaratis & Gujars (Khazars), the Abhiras (Avars), the Huns (Hoon Rajputs), the Saurasthrians (Saura Matii), the Sessodia Rajputs (Sassanians), the Jats (Getae), the Trigarttas (Tyri Getae), the Arabs (Shaikhs), the Pathans (Pashto) and the Mughals (Turks + Mongols) ? Did they not all `invade' India ? Even if the Aryans and Dravidians are `native', the bulk of the population of the North is still `immigrant'. > The arguments of Risley that one could distinguish castes by complexion > and nasal indice have been refuted with the possible exception of the > northwest region. I consider 19th century anthropologists to have been much better than present-day scientists in the classification of peoples. I have yet to see the `refutation' of Risley's theories. Who did so ? Did that person obtain different nasal indices ? How large was his sample size ? > Natural back and forth flow could have resulted in the establishment of > population centers between India and regions to the West and Northwest. There is only one `back' flow - that of the gypsies. Compare that to more than 20-30 waves of invaders (excluding the controversial Aryans) from the north-west. How many `back' flows have there been from America to Europe ? > As an example, I might point to the case of Nepal. How does one account > for the dizzying array of ethnic groups in that country? How often does > an invasion scenario arise in such explanations? It is established that the various groups in Nepal have immigrated from outside - whether Tibeto-Burman or IE. They are not indigenous. And there have been conflicts in Nepal between `Hindu' Aryans and Tibeto-Burman Buddhists. > Is the Dravidian, Indo-European, Himalayan, Austric and other presence > there always to be ascribed to military incursion? The various language groups spoken in Nepal did not originate in Nepal - for the sake of `communal harmony' one need not invent a `Nepali origin of Dravidian, Austric and IE languages'. Even if the process occurred was through immigration, there will be a conflict sooner or later once the preceding populations realise they are in a minority. Samar From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sun Sep 5 16:33:23 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 22:03:23 +0530 Subject: Genetics and Mr. Abbas In-Reply-To: <19990904204024.40767.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227051943.23782.13372549132982328750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 4 Sep 1999, Namrata Bose wrote: > I understand your frustration at the fanatical attitude of these opponents > of AIT. How can they understand the suffering that the SC/ST's, OBC's, > Jains, Buddhists and Muslims have collectively undergone because of Hindu > and Brahmin cunning!! I am all with you!! Dear Namrata Bose, Welcome to the forum. I have always seen India as a nation of immigrants like the USA, and feel Indians should take pride in that. However, the honor of defending India's most oppressed minority belongs to you, for none of the peoples you listed above are more persecuted than Indian women - Community Killings in India (1947-1999) Muslims 70,000 Sikhs 200,000 Christians 300,000 WOMEN 50,000,000 Ref. - Sonali Verma, http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/52/034.html As you can see, Indian women are the most persecuted of all minorities. There is as of yet no lady on this forum who speaks out for Indian women. Good luck if you decide to take up the job. Yours, Samar From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Sep 6 05:37:02 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 22:37:02 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051945.23782.9412624340280487606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > > On Sat, 4 Sep 1999, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > [M]y research over the last half decade and new discoveries now > > make me completely doubt any 'Aryan' invasion, > > Your change is a remarkable turnaround. I respond to your points below. > > > There are different groups present in India, but not all got there > > via invasion. > > What about the Thakurs (Tokharians), the Gujaratis & Gujars (Khazars), the> Abhiras (Avars), the Huns (Hoon Rajputs), the Saurasthrians (Saura Matii),> the Sessodia Rajputs (Sassanians), the Jats (Getae), the Trigarttas (Tyri> Getae), the Arabs (Shaikhs), the Pathans (Pashto) and the Mughals (Turks +> Mongols) ? Did they not all `invade' India ? Even if the Aryans and> Dravidians are `native', the bulk of the population of the North is still> `immigrant'. > My point is you don't need to explain the presence of any ethnic group in any region only by "invasion." Obviously the New World was not settled originally by invaders. Borders were more open and movement was likely much easier during the very early periods when populations were small and there were plenty of open corridors and passages between "nations." > > The arguments of Risley that one could distinguish castes by complexion > > and nasal indice have been refuted with the possible exception of the > > northwest region. > > I consider 19th century anthropologists to have been much better than > present-day scientists in the classification of peoples. I have yet to see > the `refutation' of Risley's theories. Who did so ? Did that person obtain > different nasal indices ? How large was his sample size ? > I can get the exact reference after the holiday here. You can find some of the data in the 1973 Gazetteer of India. My own experience would tend to back up any refutation of Risley. I have never had the impression that brahmins were particularly lighter in complexion than other people living in the same region. This is especially true if the brahmins are doing the same work as the other people. Thus, brahmin farmers in Nepal are generally just as dark as other caste farmers. In some cases, there subgroups of very light or very dark brahmins. > > Natural back and forth flow could have resulted in the establishment of > > population centers between India and regions to the West and Northwest. > > There is only one `back' flow - that of the gypsies. How do you know? You seem to be referring to maybe only 5000 years of some 150,000 years of modern human population movements. What about the modern Indian diaspora? >Compare that to more > than 20-30 waves of invaders (excluding the controversial Aryans) from the > north-west. Well those invaders came into India from the Northwest but they may have originated from the East (Mongolia), the Southwest (Arabia) or from other directions. >How many `back' flows have there been from America to Europe ? > Things are much different now. Borders are tightly guarded and national identities are much more clearly defined. In some parts of the world, it is still possible for people to freely cross borders along old migration and trading routes. The fact is that is that evidence points out that strong national identities excluding the free passage of people were much less common long ago than they are now. > > As an example, I might point to the case of Nepal. How does one account > > for the dizzying array of ethnic groups in that country? How often does > > an invasion scenario arise in such explanations? > > It is established that the various groups in Nepal have immigrated from > outside - whether Tibeto-Burman or IE. Immigrated yes, but not necessarily invaded. I am not arguing as to who is or is not indigenous to India. What I am saying is there is no evidence of an Aryan "invasion." There is evidence of Arab, Turkish, Mongol and other invasions. The Aryan invasion theory generally invovles a scenario where nomadic invaders from the Northwest invade India and drive the Munda Dravidian populations south and/or assimilate the remnnants of these populations. The necessary *hard* evidence of this invasion is entirely lacking. What we have are different ethno-linguistic groups present in India. How they got there and the specific historical circumstances remain a mystery with the evidence and literature providing only obscure clues. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala http://www.geocites.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Sep 6 15:43:37 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 08:43:37 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051963.23782.12328555148917411751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sameer Abbas writes : >This is an intersting model, and would be internally consistent (does >not >violate genetics, anthropology). There are two possibilities: either >the >Dravidians invaded by sea from Africa and drove the Aryans north; or >the >Dravidians invaded via Iran-Gujarat-Maharasthra and then settled in >South >India, bypassing the main Aryan homelands of Punjab-Ganges Valley. >Which >version do you favour ? Is there more evidence in favour of such a >`Dravidian' invasion ? Actually at the time the original AIT was 'created', there was also another theory regarding the 'two races', but though more realistic than the AIT, it didn't gain much currency, probably because it didn't favor the Brits in anyway. This theory held that the homeland of Aryans was in Central Asia and they came into India and settled in the North Western parts of the sub continent (but didn't invade or destroy any existing civilization). The Dravidians are supposed to have been aborgines of the South Pacific islands and they migrated into the Southern parts of the sub continent by sea. Though there might have been sporadic physical conflicts between the two civilizations, later mixing and the 'civilizational' ardour of the brAhmanas brought them together as one, with the dravidian culture itself peaking with Aryan influence (Buddhism, Janism, Shaivism and Vaishnavism). This IMO, seems more realistic as the relationship between the 'Aryans' and the 'Dravidians' seem more like a stronger culture to a weaker one, than conqueror and conquered. And this doesn't in anyway, cut the scope of the theory that the original homeland of the Aryans was Bharatvarsha itself. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Sep 6 16:10:32 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 09:10:32 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051967.23782.17953192217909445324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sameer Abbas writes : >The continuing >racial wars between Arya and Sudra (Sri Lanka: Sinhalese vs. Tamil, >Bihar: >Aryan Ranvir Sena vs. Dalit Maoists) shows that the Vedic race wars >continue today and are the final nail in the coffin of the soft AIT. In the first place how sure are we that the Sinhalese and Ranvir Sena truly represent the 'Arya'. As you've yourself said the big bulk of the population up north are of invading stock (Scythians, Parthians, Huns, Greeks, Moslems etc). So the current 'warrior' clans up North are more likely from the above stock than from the ancient 'Arya'. As for the Sinhala-tamil clash in Srilanka, it's more religious, cultural and economic, than racial. If you want a comparison why not take the ideal equation - the Tamil 'dravidians' Vs the Tamil brAhmanas in present day Tamil Nadu. After the heavy social, economic discrimination and sometimes even physical violence meted out to the brAhmanas, which followed the rise of dravidian nationalism, was there any kind of violent retaliation by the brAhmanas? They just stepped out of the picture, bore all the discrimination patiently and have actually managed to stay afloat and retain their cultural values as well. Probably other from other regions of the subcontinent which experienced anti-brAhmana sentiment can shed more light on the nature of the reaction from the brAhmanas. AFAIK, in the Southern states (Kerala, Andhra, Karnataka and Maharashtra) there was never any violence. So does this in anyway support to your theory of 'violent' Aryans who subdued the 'helpless' dravidians by force? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From GthomGt at CS.COM Mon Sep 6 13:33:20 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 09:33:20 -0400 Subject: SV: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051961.23782.2410083847977122607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd like to know where K. Elst gets the idea "that borrowed cultural vocabulary (e.g. in names of constellations and astronomical concepts) is conspicuously missing in Vedic." This is simply not true. There are hundreds of words in the RV which appear to be borrowings from one or more non-Indo-Aryan languages. This material is well known and has been frequently discussed. Furthermore, I am astonished that E. Seldeslachts can so confidently assert: "Also conspiciously missing is an ancient layer of non-Indo-Aryan place-names and geographical names in the entire area of the Harappan civilisation." I don't remember the exact date, but there was recent discussion on this very list about such non-Indo-Aryan place names, including a discussion of the name *ku'bhA* which, if I am not mistaken, Mr. Seldeslachts himself participated in! Basic facts, repeatedly discussed, and repeatedly ignored. What is going on here? George Thompson From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Mon Sep 6 08:17:58 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 10:17:58 +0200 Subject: down with objectivity, down with dialogue Message-ID: <161227051958.23782.185990054303038583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Wujastyk, I'm doing my best to contain myself, but some of these academic contributions just make my fingers itch for typing out a very very brief reply. According to Ravindan Sri, keeping scholarship separate from politics is "fascistic", a view I've heard before among Marxist India-watchers, obviously related to the glaring lack of objectivity (which Stalin already denounced as "bourgeois objectivity") in their writings. In fact, Ravindan's rejection of non-political scholarship is one point on which Hitler and Stalin agreed. It is "fascistic". Though we all have our ideological and other conditionings, we are deontology-bound to make our research as untainted by them as possible. Dr. Fosse proposes that the competing schools on the Aryan invasion question stop talking to each other. But is already being done. Even when AIT defenders talk to their opponents, it is mostly for abuse rather than scholarly communication. From the excerpts I've seen so far, even the new volume on Aryan & Non-Aryan (Michigan conf 1996) follows that pattern. Dr. Fosse challenges us to explain IE culture and expansion. Very simple: there is some cultural unity in the ancient IE-speaking cultures because of a common linguistic-cum-cultural origin, located in one homeland, regardless of whether this is India, Russia or any other. The expansion is due to some tribes leaving that homeland, regardless of whether etc. (but preferably, realistically, a demographically ebullient homeland such as India rather than a thinly populated one). It is true that many Indian participants in the debate have so far neglected the non-Indian part of the IE family (a kind of pubescent self-absorption in a society emancipating itself from interiorized colonial perceptions), and that some non-linguists have erroneously denied the very principle of linguistic reconstruction and the IE language family. No matter, for their work on non-linguistic aspects of the matter has been useful, and others can supply the linguistic dimension. Meanwhile, why not focus on the dimensions which the AIT proponents have neglected? Or even explicitly dismiss as unimportant, e.g. Shereen Ratnagar's latest explanation of the absence of any archaeological traces of the Aryan invasion, viz. that there are so many invasions that have remained unidentified in the archaeological record (which one? For the Indo-Greeks, we have coins and Greek-influenced sculpture; for the Turks, we have the apparition of mosques, typical citadel lay-out, so-called Islamic glazed ware; of the European invaders, future archaeologists will find churches and railways, etc.). And even of the linguistic data, quite a few are also not taken into account, e.g. many have remarked the archaic look of Vedic Sanskrit yet failed to draw the obvious chronological conclusion; e.g. the implications of "proto-Bangani" (if confirmed), e.g. the splendid match between the Indocentric scenario and the Lateral Theory, e.g. the existence of a common "secondary homeland" for the European branches of IE (common non-IE isoglosses e.g. lexically fish/piscis etc.) indicating the phases of IE expansion vs. the absence of such for the Asian branches. Enough to keep us busy in a real dialogue. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Sep 6 08:59:39 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 10:59:39 +0200 Subject: SV: down with objectivity, down with dialogue Message-ID: <161227051960.23782.15175357483499701110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Koenraad Elst [SMTP:ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE] skrev 06. september 1999 10:18: This is a comment on a mail meant for Dr. Wujastyk, but my name was mentioned. > Dr. Fosse proposes that the competing schools on the Aryan invasion question > stop talking to each other. That is not quite my point. It is rather this: The competing schools have been discussing this matter over an extended period, and the discussion has reached a stalemate. Which is why I suggest that we don't waste time on rehashing this once more. I still miss a comprehensive theory from the indigenists which deals with the whole I-E picture, and until such a theory is forthcoming, I don't think that we can expect anything that is worthwhile from a discussion. In other words: I did not say we should stop talking for ever. I said we should take a prolonged pause. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Sep 6 16:09:32 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 12:09:32 -0400 Subject: Help with tirukkayilAya JAn2a ulA Message-ID: <161227051965.23782.10186213296420156664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Does anybody know if tirukkayilAya JAn2a ulA of the 11th tirumuRai of the Tamil zaiva canon is available online somewhere? If not, does anybody have access to that text? I need to check some thing in the text. You can write to me offline if you like. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Sep 6 22:55:41 1999 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 15:55:41 -0700 Subject: Date of the Buddha and RV In-Reply-To: <19990903232058.62802.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227051974.23782.61255442442616470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:20 PM 09/03/1999 -0700, V. Agarwal wrote: >VA: Jacobi is an old author. The introduction to a recent edition of the >Vedanga Jyotisha (Yajurvediya) are written by a Vaidik proficient in >Astronomy and he has demonstrated that the text belongs to the 14th Cent. >B.C.E. The astronomical dating of Vedic and Epic texts is a complex matter. Your statement implies that it is an exact science, and this is very misleading. I don't know the edition of the VJ you are referring to (would appreciate the ref.) but one must be careful about stating that such things have been "proven," unless a general consensus has been reached. This is the problem with many of the assertions of indigenous aryanism; writers decide (often on very flimsy grounds) that something (such as the immigration theory) has been proven to be false and consequently ignore it, even though the majority of scholars accept it. This attitude ignores scholarship when it disagrees with one's ideas. Rajaram has taken this to the ultimate extreme by declaring that the whole of Indology as a discipline is irrelevant, and can, therefore, conveniently be ignored so that he can start building his hypotheses from zero, without the annoying criticism of established scholars. This is what he says in his site, to which you referred members of this list: "The real problem is the field known as Indology - a creation of alien interests with their own axes to grind. It is not enough if we expose the distortions that are part of the current version of history. We must strike at the root of the problem and expose the forces that created these distortions to serve their own interests. When we do so, what we find is that the Aryan invasion theory is only the symptom, an external manifestation. The real insidious force is the academic discipline known as Indology." "As it stands today, Indology resembles nothing so much as comparative mythology. Clearly, this cannot be the basis for history let alone historiography. So we must look elsewhere to build a foundation for the study of ancient India." "It is clear from this tortured course of Indology over the past two hundred years, and its present moribund state in which assertions take the place of facts, and negation serves as refutation that an alternative approach to Indian historiography needs to be developed. This is what empirical researchers have been trying to do for nearly fifty years, culminating in Jha?s decipherment of the Indus script." Is this wholesale rejection of decades of scholarship, including the work of many on this list (and very many more outside it), sound scholarship? Is it science? Are these absurd generalizations what you are suggesting professional scholars should ponder? Is this the exchange of ideas that Rajaram pretends to foster? By the way, If Jha has really deciphered the Indus script he will surely have a place in history, but that can only be decided by scholarly consensus, not by pompous declarations. And, Dr. Elst, How does this fit in with the "dialogue" you seem to be so concerned about while you defend Rajaram? Also, by the way, being a "former NASA scientist" is unfortunately no guarantee of competence in certain matters. It was a NASA scientist who proposed that the vision of Ezequiel in the Bible was a detailed description of an alien spacecraft... Sincerely, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann, Ph.D. Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California, Berkeley From GthomGt at CS.COM Mon Sep 6 22:36:07 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 18:36:07 -0400 Subject: Non-IE loans Message-ID: <161227051973.23782.5906064870332763564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It appears that it will be necessary to entertain a brief discussion of the principles of argument formation with Dr. Elst, since, according to the principles that I have learned to abide by, it is generally assumed that principle propositions are to be found in principle clauses, whereas what one finds in parentheses are, well, parenthetical. If Dr. Elst operates according to a different set of principles of argument formation, perhaps he should inform the list so as to avoid future misunderstandings. In any case, I count it as a positive step forward that Dr. Elst has conceded that principle point, that is, that there are indeed hundreds of loan words in the RV. As for his parenthetical point, I will make one observation: it appears to me that there is considerably less "Vedic astronomy" in the RV than there is in later Vedic. So the fact that there appears to be little borrowing from Dravidian in this context seems to be counter-balanced by the fact that there is relatively little astronomy, period. I myself am not committed to a particular point of view re the origins of "Vedic astronomy", since it has never seemed to me a terribly important matter in the RV. Perhaps this reflects a bias on my part. But perhaps it reflects a certain bias in the text of the RV itself. As for deciding this question, I think that it can't be done without a careful reading of the relevant texts. The point about *ku'bhA* is that it appears to be a non-IE word referring to a river located in the far western portion of the relevant area. It is interesting as evidence of the presence of *other languages besides IA and Dravidian* present in this area at the time of the RV. See Michael Witzel's recent discussion, published [I think: I've seen it only in ms] in the Deshpande/Bronkhorst volume recently mentioned. Finally, I'd like to see evidence *from the RV* [please, not from Rajaram! no secondary sources!] confirming Dr. Elst's suggestion that the Indus Valley is the IE homeland. And please let us know which translation of the RV is being used. Thanks in advance, George Thompson From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Mon Sep 6 18:01:34 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 20:01:34 +0200 Subject: Non-IE loans Message-ID: <161227051971.23782.803929549259761822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, Dr. Thompson, what is going on here? I say the AIT school fails to come up with Vedic astronomical terms borrowed from Dravidian, and what do you do in your reply? You again fail to come up with such terms. Instead, you assert in general that there are "hundreds" of loans in the RV. That is how many Kuiper lists (Aryans in the RV), but he exaggerates, including terms with known IE etymologies (though such may of course have been borrowed by PIE: anything borrowed before the fragmentation of PIE, hence pan-IE, is not recognizable as ultimately non-IE). But sure, there are loans in Vedic, and for the sake of argument, let all the words identified as loans by Kuiper be loans. The point is: I don't recollect any of them being specifically an astronomical term. Nor a specifically religious or metaphysical term. Kuiper's list looks more like the vocabulary exchanged in the process of economic interaction, kind of like the Arabic loans in European languages. Now, of course, my knowledge and memory are very limited, I may have missed something. Therefore, to stay within the bounds of Dr. Wujastyk's sensible rules, could you please cut my ignorance short by very very briefly listing a few Rg-Vedic (or by extension, any pre-Buddhist Indo-Aryan) astronomical terms borrowed from Dravidian? As for the Kubha, assuming the name is a loan: well, that river is in the Afghan border zone, not in the IE heartland as conceived by the India-as-homeland theory (Saraswati and upper Ganga basin). Further northwest, deeper into Afghanistan, the expanding Aryans went beyond the border, hence the typically colonial phenomenon that Aryan settlers gave the rivers names from back home in India: Harayu from Sarayu, Harahvaiti from Saraswati. Apologies for my seeming eagerness to intervene, it'll wear off. It's just that I don't want it said that I leave questions unanswered. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Sep 7 01:02:16 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 21:02:16 -0400 Subject: Non-IE loans Message-ID: <161227051979.23782.8713504497743620420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 9/6/99 1:18:14 PM Central Daylight Time, ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE writes: > But sure, there > are loans in Vedic, and for the sake of argument, let all the words > identified as loans by Kuiper be loans. The point is: I don't recollect any > of them being specifically an astronomical term. Doesn't nALI'/nADI' (Aryans in the Rigveda, pp. 19, 27, 92) have anything to do with nADikA, a unit of time? One would think measurement of time is fundamental to astronomy. Regards S. Palaniappan From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Sep 6 22:15:51 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 23:15:51 +0100 Subject: Answer to Mr. Ararwal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227051981.23782.12694958643786740315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:11 +0100 9/2/99, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > This forum is a scholarly one, aimed at universtity-level >researchers. As such, we are not obliged to adopt the >lowest-common-denominator prejudices... Having read the once-again, all-consuming "Aryan debate" of the past 2 weeks in one stretch (diSTyA, I was away!), I have not learnt ONE new fact, nor have I seen one NEW evaluation of known facts that have not been published already. Instead, a lot of (fierce) opinions, and sometimes with judgements made even before a book / article has been read (completely) ... Not to speak about simply wrong facts and outright disinformation (about these, separately). All of this leads nowhere. The only benefit, that is a *heuristical* one, I can see in all of this is that such shrill criticisms keep us on our collective toes and induce us to constantly review the evidence and our conclusions. Which is welcome. As for the critics of the past 200 years of Indology, it must be stated that we cannot always start for them, again, from the proverbial "Adam and Eve" (or from the much more the probable mitochondrial African Eve and the nuclear Adam), and explain basic facts about language comparison, textual levels, the development of the Vedic and Iranian languages over time, substrates, animal bones, metals in archaeology, astronomy and texts, etc. etc. Further, the "new paradigm" must agree with internationally accepted facts and data from the various sciences, from astronomy to zoology. There are handbooks, after all. If one does not like them, one should write e.g. a new palaeontology, and see how one will fare with zoology specialists who have no (emotional or other ) involvement with South Asia... We can securely leave such "new paradigm" people to the tender mercies of the (natural) scientists. (Exampes provided, if wished for). More separately MW. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Sep 6 22:36:12 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 23:36:12 +0100 Subject: Aryan invasion debate In-Reply-To: <01bef58d$fb7fc080$1001703e@deze-computer> Message-ID: <161227051984.23782.2288202858185102163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:54 +0200 9/2/99, Koenraad Elst wrote: > Suppose Rajaram is right, the RgVeda is pre- rather than >post-Harappan, and the dominant language in Harappa was Indo-Aryan,-- that >would render most of the extant literature on ancient India obsolete. Better to forget the 'supposing', as the copper/bronze age RV of the greater Panjab has the wagon (anas, seen in anaDvaan, used for heavy loads) which was not inventend until c. 3000 BCE), and it also has the horse and the chariot which did not enter South Asia until c. +/-1700 BCE, that is well *after* the dissolution/'localization period' of the Indus Civilization. Rajaram etc. would have to write a "new paradigm" of the devlopment of wheeled transport, wagons, chariots as well as of equid zoology to make their scheme work... (see last message) (For those who see horse bones in the IVC: none of these has been found in a good, archaeologically stratified context and none is clearly discernable from the local half-ass, the onager or hemiod). >increasing number of Western skeptics (say, archaeologist Jim Shaffer whose >spade fails to dig up any bone or artefact identifiable as invading Aryan)? First of all, some leading indologists/linguists such as Kuiper and Southworth have not been talking about 'invasion' for decades (when do people catch up with present scholarship?) but of various, involved patterns of amalgamation of various ethnic groups and languages. Then, whether you quote Shaffer or Ratnagar (on two ends of the spectrum), you simply do not easily find, in archaeology, 'people on the move' ; standard example the *real* invasion of the Huns, well known from texts, but dug up only some 15 years ago in Hungary... Shaffer *intentionally* excludes non-archaeological materials, which is laudable for an achaeologist. Yet, we as indologists have to look at *all sorts* of evidence. > Linguistics is always invoked as proving the AIT, while a >linguist told me that his discipline is unable to decide the matter, "but >there is of course the archaeological evidence". It does not matter what one archaeologist or linguist are supposed to have said off the record. Quote a paper or book. In addition, not single facts but cumulative evidence from various fields of enquiry counts. All aspects of the question must fit (as L. Fosse stressed in a slightly different way). You cannot have multiply contradicting evidence, such as the chariot driving, copper age RV people as pre-Indus (above). > when the present orthodoxy is >superseded by a new paradigm, the present-day denunciations of that new >paradigm will look ridiculous, There is no orthodoxy in scholarship. It is constantly "on the move" as new evidence emerges. (Something approaching orthodoxy may be found in newspapers, schoolbooks and encyclopedias. This list is neither.) The arguments for a "new paradigm" seen so far are multiply contradictory (small example, above) and require elaborate schemes to explain away certain facts. (Examples provided idf desired). Occam's razor applies. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Sep 6 22:37:09 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 99 23:37:09 +0100 Subject: P. Chowdhury In-Reply-To: <19990901050345.97031.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227051983.23782.2899573744550719476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 22:03 -0700 8/31/99, Vishal Agarwal wrote: >Incidently, a recent work moves a step further in questioning the prejudices >of modern Indologists like Erdosy, Dr. Witzel et al (I can email a detailed >reference to you personally if you wish) I certainly would like to be informed about my prejudices. Maybe I can better myself. MW ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Sep 7 07:38:15 1999 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 00:38:15 -0700 Subject: Decipherment and Aquarius In-Reply-To: <01bef8c2$81cb97e0$5f04703e@deze-computer> Message-ID: <161227051988.23782.7394756197806562891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:49 AM 09/07/1999 +0200, K. Elst wrote: > I'll forgive him [Rajaram] ... if >he can, as he claims, present us the true decipherment of the Harappan >script (if only because that would blow away this whole quarrel overnight). And if Jha's book does not "present us the true decipherment of the Harappan script," will you also consider the quarrel over? >harmony and understanding, sympathy and trust >abounding, no more falsehood and invasion... Nice quote from "Hair" Dr. Elst, but you are equating invasion (and, implicitly, migration) with falsehood. Wouldn't it be more in the Aquarian spirit to be somewhat less biased? Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann, Ph.D. Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California, Berkeley From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Mon Sep 6 23:49:49 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 01:49:49 +0200 Subject: Decipherment and Aquarius Message-ID: <161227051977.23782.13360277156331952721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann has a point: Prof. Rajaram isn't into dialogue with Indology. This is among other reasons because of its alleged long-standing refusal of a dialogue with indigenous scholarship. I don't know if he's right about that. But if he's wrong, I'll forgive him that if he can, as he claims, present us the true decipherment of the Harappan script (if only because that would blow away this whole quarrel overnight). After all, G Possehl's recent catalogue of failed decipherments must be an eyesore to all of us, a cry for the final breakthrough. Same offer to all of you who likewise treat the rivalling school with contempt: decipher that script, and we'll have harmony and understanding, sympathy and trust abounding, no more falsehood and invasion... Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 7 14:38:42 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 07:38:42 -0700 Subject: down with objectivity, down with dialogue Message-ID: <161227051995.23782.5122526248398887557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< It is true that many Indian participants in the debate have so far neglected the non-Indian part of the IE family (a kind of pubescent self-absorption in a society emancipating itself from interiorized colonial perceptions), and that some non-linguists have erroneously denied the very principle of linguistic reconstruction and the IE language family. No matter, for their work on non-linguistic aspects of the matter has been useful, and others can supply the linguistic dimension. >>> Dravidianists are th ones who point out many linguistic inconsistencies esp. in the out-of-india model. Increasing the no. of Dravidology positions in the West is one way to see whether out-of-India theory is correct. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 7 16:42:08 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 09:42:08 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227052002.23782.1430387484699963526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas writes : >Your theory of a Brahmanic origin of South Indian civilization is >interesting. Yes, all the disciples of Mahavir were Brahmins, as were >many >Mahayana Buddhists. But what about the Dravidian temple architecture, >which is so different from Nagari temples in the North ? Could you >elaborate on this theory ? No, I never said that the origin of dravidian civilization lies in brahmanic origins. No, IF they're indeed a seperate race, they definitely had a seperate culture. But what is now presented as the 'cultural achievements' of the dravidian culture - literature, music etc undeniably show Arya influence. Eg - SilapathikAram, Thirukural are JainA works. Manimekalai is a Bauddha work. Both religions and especially their founders have infact taken pride in being 'Arya'. Even the astika traditions - the nAyanmars and the Azlwars - have brAhmanas in their ranks. The great philosophy of Vishitadvaitam, a brAhmanical contribution, which represents the highest point of the Azlwar school in terms of systematic philosophy is itself the base for the Saiva SiddhAnta philosophy. What I'm trying to say is that though the Tamils might have had original ideas in the fields of philosophy, literature and music, it was the 'Arya' or brAhmanic influence which systematized, refined and perfected it. Even the highest points of the Southern Saiva school in terms of systematic philosophy is a brAhmanic contribution - the works of Appaya Dikshita and Nilakanda. This can also be seen even in the case of Carnatic music - which as Vidhya pointed out before might have non-brAhmana origins - for it was PurandaradhAsa, ThyagarAja and Muthuswami Dikshitar who have systematized and refined it to its current form (or atleast so have I been told). And even in terms of language - brAhmanas have shown as much loyalty to Tamil - Tamizh Pattru - as 'dravidians' themselves. And their contribution in terms of literature - both ancient and modern - can match dravidian contribution in terms of quality, if not quantity. Inshort, it seems to me that dravidian culture has no identity of its own apart from its brAhmanic counterpart. >I'll admit the Brahmins showed considerable courage in not >retaliating >with violence. That's where we differ in world view. For us it is not a question of courage - it's the way of life itself - the collective wisdom of the race passed down down the ages. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU Tue Sep 7 13:51:14 1999 From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 09:51:14 -0400 Subject: Indian Calendar/subtraction Message-ID: <161227051993.23782.11759349667967442571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a Mathematics problem and not astronomical one. For K12: the hours between 8:31AM and 6:49 AM(the next day) are obtained by calculating 30:49 - 8:31 = 22:18. Your answer 28:18 was probably obtained by adding 30:00 to 6:49. Same mistake occurs for K14. The answer is 22:53 not 28:53. Thus consecutive numbers are 22:18, 22:34, 22:53 - a steady progression! Chris Eade wrote: > Skip... > It has a very peculiar feature: every time a ksaya tithi comes along, its > ending time is 6gh (of 30gh per day) short of its neighbouring tithis; and > every there is an adhika tithi it is 6gh in excess of its neighbours. This > betrays itself if you look at the intervals between the successive tithis. > For instance, if you look at Sept 99 in "kalnirnay", you find 08.31 > for the end of tithi K11, 06.49 for K12, 29.23 for K13, and 28.16 for K14. > Now, 6.49 (K12) minus 08.31 (K11) is 28gh18, and 28.16 (K14) minus > 29.23 (K13) is 28gh53. > But 29.23 (K13) minus 6.49 (K12)is only 22gh34, which is integer > 6gh smaller than the intervals that flank it. Presumably there is some > astrological reason for this. > If you know someone who could explain, I would be very much obliged > to hear from them and be able to get to sleep o' nights. -- |Avinash Sathaye Phone:(606)277-0130(Home), (606)257-8832(Office) | Web page: www.ms.uky.edu/~sohum From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Tue Sep 7 05:51:58 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 11:21:58 +0530 Subject: Aryan invasion debate In-Reply-To: <37D352FD.90C723A3@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227051986.23782.8143538750089322096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Koenraad Elst:"I say the AIT school fails to come up with Vedic > astronomical terms borrowed from Dravidian " It is exactly the lack of astronomical terms in Rig Vedic that supports the non-Aryan nature of the Harappan civilization - " The star-calendar used by the Vedic ritualists was adopted by the Aryans in India, for there are no references to it in the Avesta or in the oldest books of the Rgveda. On the other hand, astronomical evidence dates the compilation of this calendar at around the 23rd century B.C., when the Indus civilisation flourished at its peak" [Asko Parpola, http://www.harappa.com/script/parpola9.html] " The rope-like hanging aerial roots are characteristic of the Indian fig tree; indeed, it seems that one of the Sanskrit names for this tree, vata, is of Dravidian origin." [ A.Parpola, http://www.harappa.com/script/parpola11.html] Whether `vata' occurs in the RigVeda ia a question which I leave to the Sanskritists on this list. How do OIT followers counter this evidence ? > Paul K. Manansala:"The...hard evidence of [AIT] is entirely lacking." What would you class as `hard' evidence ? There are thick ash layers at the top of the IVC cities, and fractured skulls. You can counter the anthropological date only by citing counter-measurements of nasal index, lip width, genetics, etc., not by `I saw a dark aryan, so all aryans are of dravidian origin'. There are dark Anglos in the US South, in fact many negroes `pass' or become Anglo during their lifetime. So what ? > P.K.Manansala :"... are different ethno-linguistic groups > present in India. How they got there and the specific historical > circumstances remain a mystery ... " The Saka Rajputs, Tibeto-Burmic Nagas, Mughal Muslims, Khazar Gujaratis all came from the NW. There is no mystery in how they came (through the NW) and when (to within a few centuries). We think we also know where the Aryans and Dravidians came from, but we're not 100 % sure. Basically, all this `negative' research of showing up the faults of the established theory whilst not providing a suitable alternative just makes more Indians confused about what they are. > Nanda Chandran:"...the 'civilizational' ardour of the brAhmanas brought > them together as one, with the dravidian culture itself peaking with > Aryan influence (Buddhism, Janism, Shaivism and Vaishnavism)." Your theory of a Brahmanic origin of South Indian civilization is interesting. Yes, all the disciples of Mahavir were Brahmins, as were many Mahayana Buddhists. But what about the Dravidian temple architecture, which is so different from Nagari temples in the North ? Could you elaborate on this theory ? > Nanda Chandran:"..how sure are we that the Sinhalese and Ranvir Sena > truly represent the 'Arya'. As you've yourself said the big bulk of the < population up north are of invading stock (Scythians, Parthians, Huns, > Greeks, Moslems etc). OK, Bihari Ranvir Sena Brahmins may be of Sakadvipi (Parthian) immigrant stock, hence they are not `arya' as per your definition. I agree with you that most of the conflict in the Northern Indian subcontitnent are between immigrant Scythians, Moslems, Greeks, etc. rather than arya-anarya. I'll admit the Brahmins showed considerable courage in not retaliating with violence. All I meant in citing the examples of conflict was to refute the pseudo-secular theory that `English colonialists invented all conflicts in India'. I have not passed judgement on who is `right' and who is `wrong'. Samar From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 7 21:18:23 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 14:18:23 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227052016.23782.11457814494163946042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Selvakumar writes : >Would you say just because we have works in English expounding on the > Buddhist philsophy or the Jainist philosophy, the American and > British (or Western) language(s), > literature and culture are undeniably of Indian influence ? > Tamil has works like cIRaappurranam of the poet umaRup pulavar > on themes of Islam and thEmbavaani a work on Christian themes and so >on. But are the non-Indian religious texts considered as the epitome of Tamizh literature? The "Aim Perum KApiyangal" or the five great epics of the Tamizh literature are closely related to Arya culture. So is probably the finest work in Tamizh literature - the Kamba RAmAyanam (which the dravidian nationalists so sadly ignore!). And this is what I'm trying to point out. If you can point out a *substantial* literary corpus which shows no Arya connections and points to an original individual identity of the Tamizh people, it would be more useful for the discussion. > By the way the tamil work tirukkuRaL is not a Jaina work, > though it is often claimed so. Just asserting that it is not so will not do. Please give us more proof. If you want I can give you the Samskrutam name by which it is referred to by the JainAs. And they think that Thiruvalluvar was just the publisher and not the author. >The brAhmanas may be people who have accepted Vedas > like Tamil Christians who have accepted Bible, > but apart from the few differences in spiritual and cultural > practices due to their 'religion' or 'sub-religion' they are > by and large Tamils in their ethnicity, language and culture. By this I don't really understand as to where you're pointing! If the Tamizh brAhmanas are of the same race as the dravidian Tamizhs, then why not the rest of the brAhmanas in India? > The Saiva Siddhantha was systematised by > Meykandaar who is not a brAhmana > and the Saivite school is in part crystallized by Sekkizaar > who wrote PeriyapuraaNam. There's a big difference between systematizing the doctrines of a religion and systematic philosophic thought. >The only problem > is brAhmanas of non-tamil origin, who came from the north at various > periods, not knowing the tamil roots, try to > propagate the 'arya-centric' view as you are doing. This is a new angle, but definitely worth pursuing. If somebody could come up with the earliest date of literature in Samskrutam in the Southern lands, we could see if the brAhmanas in early Tamil Nadu had a preference to Tamizh over Samskrutam. FYI, my mother and grandmother are both pulavar level in Tamizh (they just laugh outright at the claim that Tamizh is not their native tongue!). And both have nurtured enough Tamizh pattru in me since childhood that I'll never degrade it on any false claim. So I'm not 'Arya centric' as you presume, but am just trying to ascertain facts. So please let's not get carried away by our emotions and let's try to remain objective. > The art of Carnatic music is in no small measure advanced by > great Naagasuram players none of whom is a brAhmana (except may be one > or two who are not exponents anyway). But this doesn't in anyway undermine the position of the 'trinity' in the field. > Most of the Tamil brAhmanas are dravidians! So why don't classical dravidian exponents (and there're quite a few on this list!) accept it to be so? And I'm not really clear with your stand regarding the AIT, for you assert that the Tamizh brAhmanas are dravidians! So please state your position in your next post, so we can be clear as to what're arguing for! >There are people who have declared that it is a shame to call > Tamil a language when it has got only a few letters in the alphabet > which are different from the Sanskrit and now you think ('it seems') > 'dravidian culture has no idenity of its own'! > Nothing new! Just as incorrect as ever! I just wish you'd more facts to support your claims, instead of mere assertions. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Tue Sep 7 18:32:04 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 14:32:04 -0400 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227052004.23782.13707562691251488533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: * *No, I never said that the origin of dravidian civilization lies in brahmanic *origins. No, IF they're indeed a seperate race, they definitely had a *seperate culture. But what is now presented as the 'cultural achievements' *of the dravidian culture - literature, music etc undeniably show Arya *influence. Eg - SilapathikAram, Thirukural are JainA works. Manimekalai is a *Bauddha work. Both religions and especially their founders have infact taken *pride in being 'Arya'. Would you say just because we have works in English expounding on the Buddhist philsophy or the Jainist philosophy, the American and British (or Western) language(s), literature and culture are undeniably of Indian influence ? Tamil has works like cIRaappurranam of the poet umaRup pulavar on themes of Islam and thEmbavaani a work on Christian themes and so on. Undoubtedly various schools of thought engaged Tamils at various times and it is a fact that Tamils contributed significantly. The native spiritiuality of tamils qualified all that came from outside and all that was produced within its culture. By the way the tamil work tirukkuRaL is not a Jaina work, though it is often claimed so. * *Even the astika traditions - the nAyanmars and the Azlwars - have brAhmanas *in their ranks. The great philosophy of Vishitadvaitam, a brAhmanical *contribution, which represents the highest point of the Azlwar school in *terms of systematic philosophy is itself the base for the Saiva SiddhAnta *philosophy. The fact that brAhmanas are there in the ranks of nAyanmars, along with 'Dalits' and others show the catholicity of the religion. The brAhmanas may be people who have accepted Vedas like Tamil Christians who have accepted Bible, but apart from the few differences in spiritual and cultural practices due to their 'religion' or 'sub-religion' they are by and large Tamils in their ethnicity, language and culture. * *What I'm trying to say is that though the Tamils might have had original *ideas in the fields of philosophy, literature and music, it was the 'Arya' *or brAhmanic influence which systematized, refined and perfected it. Even *the highest points of the Southern Saiva school in terms of systematic *philosophy is a brAhmanic contribution - the works of Appaya Dikshita and *Nilakanda. The Saiva Siddhantha was systematised by Meykandaar who is not a brAhmana and the Saivite school is in part crystallized by Sekkizaar who wrote PeriyapuraaNam. Sekkizaar is also not a brAhmana. Undoubtedly Tamil brAhmanas who are as much Tamil as PaRaiyar or PaLLar or Mudaliyaar or PiLLai, contributed a lot to Tamil cultural stream over the past 2000 years. The only problem is brAhmanas of non-tamil origin, who came from the north at various periods, not knowing the tamil roots, try to propagate the 'arya-centric' view as you are doing. * *This can also be seen even in the case of Carnatic music - which as Vidhya *pointed out before might have non-brAhmana origins - for it was *PurandaradhAsa, ThyagarAja and Muthuswami Dikshitar who have systematized *and refined it to its current form (or atleast so have I been told). Tamil music, a branch of which today is called Carnatic music, is more than 2000 years old but in the last 50-60 years, there is undoubtedly a tendency to sing mostly the 'Trinity's krithis and there are also a large number of brAhmana exponents. The art of Carnatic music is in no small measure advanced by great Naagasuram players none of whom is a brAhmana (except may be one or two who are not exponents anyway). In short what you are claiming is a gross distortion. *And even in terms of language - brAhmanas have shown as much loyalty to *Tamil - Tamizh Pattru - as 'dravidians' themselves. And their contribution *in terms of literature - both ancient and modern - can match dravidian *contribution in terms of quality, if not quantity. Most of the Tamil brAhmanas are dravidians! * *Inshort, it seems to me that dravidian culture has no identity of its own *apart from its brAhmanic counterpart. There are people who have declared that it is a shame to call Tamil a language when it has got only a few letters in the alphabet which are different from the Sanskrit and now you think ('it seems') 'dravidian culture has no idenity of its own'! Nothing new! Just as incorrect as ever! (I hope I will be excused for this long post) /C.R.Selvakumar From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Sep 7 21:45:06 1999 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 14:45:06 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion debate In-Reply-To: <01bef960$b19a2b00$2403703e@deze-computer> Message-ID: <161227052017.23782.5666991056762140156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:42 PM 09/07/1999 +0200, K. Elst wrote: > Dr. Martinez-Reimann, on second thought I don't expect acceptance of >Jha's decipherment of Harappan as Sanskritic to end the quarrel: You don't seem willing to include the possibility that Jha's decipherment might be wrong. Is that the case? I know that Gonzalez is a very common Spanish name (more so than Martinez) and I'm also aware that they both share the patronymic ending -ez; however, I'm still quite sure that some distant ancestor of mine was probably called Gonzalo, or even Gundisaluus, but not Martin. Sincerely, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann From namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 7 23:02:47 1999 From: namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM (Namrata Bose) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 16:02:47 -0700 Subject: Mian Abbas und Padre Zyndenbos Message-ID: <161227052019.23782.15527629722677521969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hell Mian Abbas, I am really impressed by your proofs that most people of North India are foreigners. In fact, your name also reminds me of the Iranian Abbassids. I really liked your equation Shaiekh = Arab, because it reminded me of a proverb of Bengali Muslims--" Today I am an Ansar. If my crops are good this year, I will become a Shaiekh. And if they are good next year also, I will become a Sayyad." I also had a Pakistani (Balochi ) friend who was 1/16 Arab because a great grandfather was an Arab. And he was so proud that he is superior to Pakis because they are Indians while he is an Arab! I am all for empowerment of women. Whenever you launch an agitation for Muslim women (Nikaahed or Talaqued or those "Whom the right hands of Muslim men possess"--Koran) to tear their viels, abolish polygamy, give maintenance to Shah Bano and also save little Ameena from the old Abdullah. I will be ready with my slogans: Aaj ki naari phool nahin chingari hai Hamse jo takreyaga choor choor ho jayega. = I am really happy that you gave me that website address. It shows how millions of Indian bahans are killed every year. I will now read that report to find out why every 3rd child that is conceived in the USA is aborted. Or why the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan has the lowest Women : Men ratio in the world. As a return favor, I am listing the addresses of some Islamic websites here. If these are not ISLAMIC enough, tell me. I will give you the address of Taliban and Hamas. 1. Hindu Kush means Hindu Slaughter http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_kush.html 2. The Magnitude of Muslim Atrocities (From Ghaznavi to Taimur) http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/moghal_atro.html 3. Hindu Genocide in East Pakistan http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_bangla.html 4. Persecution of Christians in Islamic Lands http://www.domini.org/openbook/ 5. Murderous Assaults of Indonesian Muslims on Indonesian Christians http://www.huaren.org/focus/ 6. Destruction of Hindu Temples by Aurangzeb http://www.hindunet.org?hindu_history/modern/temple_aurangzeb.html 7. Minorities in Islam http://www.lordbyron.org/D8YeOr.htm 8. The Place of Women in Pure Islam http://debate.domini.org/newton/womeng.html 9. The Holy War http://answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/war.html 10. Satyameva Jayate http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/ I also agree with Padre Zynedbos that Koenraad Elst must write on the destruction of huts oops! churches at Dangs. Also mention that the riot started when some true Christians stoned some Hindu monks addressing a Hindu rally. Also add a list of the the many hundred Hindu Rheang women who were raped in Christian Mizoram last year because they did not want to become Christian. Also add the continued persecution of Hindus by Christians in Nagaland, Hilly areas of Manipur, Mizoram and in Christian parts of Arunachal. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 7 23:17:44 1999 From: namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM (Namrata Bose) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 16:17:44 -0700 Subject: Fosse and the date of Rigveda Message-ID: <161227052021.23782.4620728628612769385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Fosse, I did some investigation for you to find the consensus on the date of RV. Here is what I found 1. In one book, M. Witzel says that the Vedas, as we have now, are a 3000 year old tape recording (studien zum iranistik und indologie) 2. In a second book, Witzel said that the words of Vedas have not changed for the last 2000 years (Bronkhorst:1999) 3. In a third book, Witzel said the available text of Rigveda was finalized by Sakalya in the age of Brahamanas (800-600 BC?) (Erdosy:1995) I am totally confused because Witzel does not agree with Witzel who does not agree with Witzel. Or maybe, Philology is moving very fast. Or perhaps, Witzel is very open minded and thinks that all these dates are correct. Personally, I root for 'Two thousand' date. This is because the word 'Two' shows retroflexion and 'three' does not. Therefore. by accepting 'two thousand', I can find that Dravidian substratum that I am desperately looking for. Of course, if I want to look for a Munda substratum tomorrow, I will move on to three thousand or four thousand or whatever suits me. I also searched the consensus on the end date of the Harappan Civilization. In the publications of experts like Parpola, Witzel, Erdosy, Alchin, Romila Thapar and many others, I found 2100 bc, 1900 bc, 1800 bc, 1500 bc etc. Am I getting confused? I think I agree with you. Although we do not know when the Vedas were given their final form, we also have no reason prefer 2000 bc over 1000 bc. So let us adopt 1000 bc. See, we have reached a perfect scholarly consensus now. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Tue Sep 7 15:19:18 1999 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 17:19:18 +0200 Subject: SV: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227051997.23782.1545425332441481557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > > This is simply not true. There are hundreds of words in the RV which appear > to be borrowings from one or more non-Indo-Aryan languages. This material is > well known and has been frequently discussed. Having an untransparant etymology is not the same as having a non-Indo-Aryan etymology. And 'hundreds' is really a gross exageration. > Furthermore, I am astonished that E. Seldeslachts can so confidently assert: > "Also conspiciously missing is an ancient layer of non-Indo-Aryan place-names > and geographical names in the entire area of the Harappan civilisation." This indeed seems the case. Such an ancient layer seems to me to be absent even in most of the subcontinent North of the Tungabhhadra and Krishna rivers. I cannot however explain this situation. > I don't remember the exact date, but there was recent discussion on this very > list about such non-Indo-Aryan place names, including a discussion of the > name *ku'bhA* which, if I am not mistaken, Mr. Seldeslachts himself > participated in! Ku'bhA- probably belongs together with Avestan kaofa-, Old Persian kaufa- 'mountain ridge'; 'hunch', IA *kubba- (CDIAL 3301) and kubhra'- to IE *keub-/*keubh-, *kubho-s 'bent, curved'. Notice the voiced aspirated stop, which is a very typical Indo-Aryan feature. To me this seems an excellent Indo-Aryan etymology, but you may convince me with a better explanation. Which 'non-Indo-Aryan language' are you thinking of in this case? Can other names be ascribed to the same language or group of languages? Erik Seldeslachts From chris.eade at ANUGPO.ANU.EDU.AU Tue Sep 7 07:59:15 1999 From: chris.eade at ANUGPO.ANU.EDU.AU (Chris Eade) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 17:59:15 +1000 Subject: Indian Calendar Message-ID: <161227051990.23782.2929676548176026089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hope there is someone in the IndolList who knows an Indian calendar expert. At "www.kalnirnay.com" there is a nice Indian calendar with data valid for Bombay. It has a very peculiar feature: every time a ksaya tithi comes along, its ending time is 6gh (of 30gh per day) short of its neighbouring tithis; and every there is an adhika tithi it is 6gh in excess of its neighbours. This betrays itself if you look at the intervals between the successive tithis. For instance, if you look at Sept 99 in "kalnirnay", you find 08.31 for the end of tithi K11, 06.49 for K12, 29.23 for K13, and 28.16 for K14. Now, 6.49 (K12) minus 08.31 (K11) is 28gh18, and 28.16 (K14) minus 29.23 (K13) is 28gh53. But 29.23 (K13) minus 6.49 (K12)is only 22gh34, which is integer 6gh smaller than the intervals that flank it. Presumably there is some astrological reason for this. If you know someone who could explain, I would be very much obliged to hear from them and be able to get to sleep o' nights. From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 8 02:26:18 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 19:26:18 -0700 Subject: Book references Message-ID: <161227052027.23782.17763966616138513415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: I don't know the edition of the VJ you are referring to (would appreciate the ref.) VA: Vedanga Jyotisa of Lagadha in its Rk and Yajus Recensions ( With the Translation and Notes of Prof. T. S. Kupanna Sastry); Ed. K. V. Sarma; Indian National Science Academy; New Delhi; 1985 Please see the 'Introduction' of the volume. Yes, differences in the dates are discussed in brief and the reasons for the confusion is also stated. Will appreciate your own comments on this issue. _______________ Reference required by Dr. Michael Witzel--- The Aryans: History of Vedic Period; K. C. Aryan and S. Aryan; Rekha Prakashan; New Delhi; August 1998 The book is actually worse than that of Paramesh Chaudhary. Replete with unsubstantiated fiction, baseless allegations. A total waste of time and money. ____ Hope these references help. Best regards Vishal ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Sep 7 20:09:58 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 20:09:58 +0000 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227051998.23782.12234335256192175926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some observations: In the heat of debate it is all the more necessary to keep some facts of ancient and medieval times history. 1. The total physical number of soldiers in the armies of Scythians, Parthians, Huns, Greeks, Turks, Afghans, Lodis, Moghuls etc., could never have been so large that it could have visibly altered the racial make up of North India. These were ruling elites that seized power and defeated the ruling elite of the natives. They were not so large in numbers that they literaly pushed the darker inhabitants into woods and southern regions. During the course of time they simply got drowned into the mixed racial pool. They could not have reinforced the supposed xanthodermia of the ruling classes as postulated by Mr. Abbas. 2. There were extremely few women (only of the families of monarchs or generals) that came with the armies. Those of the invaders that stayed behind married here. 3. Ancient literature does not indicate fairness of skin as a mark of beauty. Shyama, tanvangee, varaarohaa, anavadyaa etc., the epithets for a woman of distinction do not indicate preference for xanthodermia. IT is medieval literature that indicates a preference for fair women. The Natyasastra prescribes that king should be shown as gaura, padma and shyaama (chapter 21). The regional complexions as described in the Natyasastra are exactly the same as of today. If NS is taken as some evidence then there is no change in two thousand years ! (continued) Bharat Gupt Associate Prof. Delhi Univ. From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Tue Sep 7 18:42:10 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 20:42:10 +0200 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227052012.23782.9535011549517340912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A lot of mails pointing my way. Brief reply: Prof. Witzel objects to my comment on mere excerpts from the Michigan conf book. I promise a detailed review once I have a copy. Prof. Witzel, meanwhile, passed judgment on S. Talageri's book in Erdosy's Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia (p.116), denouncing it as "Hindu exegetical or apologetic religious writing" (still mild next to Erdosy's dismissing Talageri as a "lunatic", no less, p.x),-- all without having seen Talageri's book. How else shall we explain his total ignorance of Talageri's arguments (though these specifically clash with Witzel's approach to reconstructing Vedic history), and more pointedly, the error in Talageri's name (Telagiri) and the misidentification of his publisher (Aditya instead of Voice of India), both identical to the errors in the Times of India (17 June 1993) review of the book? Basing opinions on second-hand reports yet pretending otherwise in the footnote is no big deal, but please confine it to neutral references, not one underpinning such sweeping condemnation. Prof. Witzel also favours integration of different types of evidence. But what can such synthesis deliver when all the separate types of evidence fail to support the AIT? Archaeologists and anthropologists have not identified any findings as distinctly Aryan-invader. Linguistics offers only soft evidence and doesn't yield a consensus. In Vedic literature, again no trace of the invasion (as for Prof. Witzel's attempt to find one such reference, see my website), and no non-IE reading of the Harappan seals has succeeded. The AIT may be true, but it is entirely unproven. Therefore, it is too early to act bored with this debate. Dr. Thompson requests one RV verse proving indigenousness. Numerous scholars (tenured at the best univs with the best-equipped libraries, funding, research assistents, and a prestige opening many doors in India) have taught the AIT for decades, yet failed to identify a single RV verse proving the invasion. This when there is obviously more chance of finding a reference to an event (invasion) than to a non-event (absence of invasion). Dr. Martinez-Reimann, on second thought I don't expect acceptance of Jha's decipherment of Harappan as Sanskritic to end the quarrel: the trenches would simply move to the AIT's next line of defence, viz. a pre-Harappan Aryan invasion;-- which is indeed a legitimate possibility. Incidentally, Dr. Thompson, you seem to identify me as a headstrong champion of the non-AIT cause, like Prof. Rajaram. To clarify my position: I have no axe to grind in this matter, and I don't care where my ancestors got their language from. I am not even sure of the Indian homeland hypothesis, though at present it has the best cards. I am simply having a good time pulling the leg of people who are far too sure of their case relative to their meagre evidence. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Sep 7 18:47:53 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 20:47:53 +0200 Subject: SV: Closing remarks to Dr. Vassilkov (& Mr. Agarwal) (II) Message-ID: <161227052014.23782.15593067448920656432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos [SMTP:zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE] skrev 07. september 1999 20:34: > Yet by Rajaram's own admission (cf. the closing words of his > article, if it is not clear already long before you reach them), this > rewriting of history is a political matter. In your [Koenrad Elst] own convoluted 13- > page item which you named after me you too say (in the final > paragraph) that the AIT is a threat to India's unity and integrity. >?From my readings in Indigenism, it would seem clear that the "Aryan-Dravidian" divide plays a very important role in the history-writing of the Indigenists. In other words: because a certain interpretation of history seems to create problems between the North and the South, it has to be rejected and replaced by a less inconvenient theory. Given this overtly political motive, I think it is relevant to ask if a discussion between hard-core indigenists and migrationists is meaningful at all. If there is a political motive for adopting Indigenism, then the hands of the indigenists are tied at the outset, and they CANNOT make concessions. Their job is to manipulate history in the same manner as communist and fascist historians manipulated *their* histories in order to use them as political tools. So is a debate meaningful at all? [BTW: Discreet manipulations of history took place both in Western Germany and in France after the Second World War for similar reasons, so this is not necessarily a practice confined to non-democratic regimes. But the best examples, of course, come from the totalitarian regimes!] Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Sep 7 20:16:20 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 21:16:20 +0100 Subject: Fosse and the date of Rigveda In-Reply-To: <19990907231744.16719.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052023.23782.12378782808806631201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> He Bose, Good try. To quote the old adage: Sometimes I doubt about myself... But I certainly doubt about N. Bose's (statements): To quote out of context and with slight modifications always is 'useful', and is the oldest trick in a politician's book. (1) all numbers ending in -000 are approximations. (2) second, and in detail: At 16:17 -0700 9/7/99, Namrata Bose wrote: >Hello Fosse, ..... >1. In one book, M. Witzel says that the Vedas, as we have now, are a 3000 >year old tape recording (studien zum iranistik und indologie) That is not a book but a journal, called "Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik" (StII, since 1975). I wonder in which volume/article, maybe 20 years ago, I might have said so. Anyhow I cannot check here at home. However, a close reading of the other quotes does not contradict this sentence (if indeed quoted correctly which I doubt now, see immediately). >2. In a second book, Witzel said that the words of Vedas have not changed >for the last 2000 years (Bronkhorst:1999) No, you misquoted and paraphrased: footnote 199 of that paper, in my computer, says: "As is well known, the transmission of Vedic texts has been so extra-ordinarily faithful that words, sounds, and even the tonal accents went unchanged for more than 2000 years" Note: "more than". Nice misquote. Also, page numbers, each time, would have helped. This date refers, of course, to no. 3: >3. In a third book, Witzel said the available text of Rigveda was finalized >by Sakalya in the age of Brahamanas (800-600 BC?) (Erdosy:1995) Correct (though I do not find the quote in my papers in that book, nor does my computer). Sakalya 'redacted' the RV during the Brahmana (sic!) period, but as all specialists know, the changes codified by him then are minimal, when compared with the Rsis' creations (suvar --> svar, etc.) See the retro-active changes made in van Nooten-Holland's metrical RV (HOS 1994). In short, there is so little real "change" that I still like the *shortcut* description of the RV as a tape recording of (at least ) 1000 BCE, and I will continue to use it. And where is the contraction in the above 3 dates, as I used them? -- Only on the surface, in Bose's quotes. Good try. But an innocent one? Not, when you read the conclusion: >I am totally confused because Witzel does not agree with Witzel who does not >agree with Witzel. On the lighter side: >Personally, I root for 'Two thousand' date. This is because the word 'Two' >shows retroflexion and 'three' does not. Now I really doubt about you. Try to bend back your tongue in "two" (as British/American speaker, I mean). Well, to a native Indian speaker, t-wo and th-ree are retroflexes. Do you not know what retroflexion is? Or does your particular Bengali dialect/idiolect have retroflexion in pronouncing "two" but not in "three" (due to dissilimiation because of following -r-??? -- narmaartham eva) >I also searched the consensus on the end date of the Harappan Civilization. The archaeologists, on whom we all depend here, have revised the dates several times over the past few decades, as we all know. As as student I read : upto 1750 BCE; Now they tell us: 2600 -1900 BCE... Again, nice try to blame historians, linguists etc. etc. for the revisions of the earchaeologists! Congratulations! ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Sep 7 21:38:17 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 21:38:17 +0000 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227052000.23782.3223689056633310827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (continued) 4. IF the xanthodermia is unsustainable much of the Aryan invasion as pushing out the darker people/ later lower caste people collapses. 5. Parallels with Europeans reducing the american indian territory to reservation and and forests again cannot sustain scrutiny. The gap between the polymachic technology (capacity to use various kinds of war weapons ) of the Europeans and the American Indians was immense. The same did not obtain between the invader and the invaded ever in history. 6. Extending the logic given above about white versus dark, the same would apply to other aspects of physical appearance and racial distinctness. 7. The soft AIT seems more logical and as increasing evidence tends to show it may be just a migrationary influx and no invasion. It is at this point that the hard taskof discovering what the migrants could have brought with them and what they adopted. 8. Regarding IE racial influx theory into Indian subcontinent, it is important to keep in mind that a similar overthrow of the matrilinear societies of Greek and Asia Minor by the patriarchal Indo-Europeans/Aryans was postulated. If the period for Northern Aryan invaders into northern Greece (Thessaly) has been fixed around 2500 BCE and the formation of Mycenean (middle Helladic culture) in 2000 BCE, then the invasion of Harappa cannot be earlier than that. Hence it is not always the Indian evidence that determines the date of AIT but the Greek history as well. Bharat Gupt Associate Professor, Delhi University. From gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Sep 8 02:38:52 1999 From: gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Griffin, William) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 21:38:52 -0500 Subject: Fosse and the date of Rigveda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052025.23782.5481236830847326155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >>Personally, I root for 'Two thousand' date. This is because the word 'Two' >>shows retroflexion and 'three' does not. > >Now I really doubt about you. >Try to bend back your tongue in "two" (as British/American speaker, I >mean). Well, to a native Indian speaker, t-wo and th-ree are retroflexes. >Do you not know what retroflexion is? Or does your particular Bengali >dialect/idiolect have retroflexion in pronouncing "two" but not in "three" >(due to dissilimiation because of following -r-??? -- narmaartham eva) > Actually, the native Indian speaker does *not* have retroflexion in 'three' -- this word is pronounced with a dental stop and dental stops are pretty consistently distinguished from retroflex stops in all the Indian languages that I've heard! The word 'two' has retroflexion, but retroflex stops tend to show variation with alveolar stops in Indian English -- for some speakers, at least. Gail Coelho William Earl Griffin The University of Texas at Austin Department of Linguistics Ph. D. Program in Linguistics From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Sep 7 21:45:30 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 22:45:30 +0100 Subject: Aryan invasion debate In-Reply-To: <01bef960$b19a2b00$2403703e@deze-computer> Message-ID: <161227052029.23782.9893323121871596875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:42 +0200 9/7/99, Koenraad Elst wrote: >Witzel, meanwhile, passed judgment on S. Talageri's book in Erdosy's >Indo-Aryans of >Ancient South Asia (p.116), denouncing it as "Hindu exegetical or apologetic >religious writing" this is not a quote but a paraphrase and shortcut of what I wrote, ... and on p. 117... On p. 116 I criticize 'western' scholars of all stripes, and on the bottom ob p. 116 some S. Asian biases. Here Chowdhury and Telagiri (sic, indeed) appear in a footnote devoted to westward migration of IA/IE; labeled as 'erroneous'. On p. 117 I sum up various more or less recent (Tilak 1903 included) 'speculations ; as follows; "... Such speculations further cloud the scientific evaluation of textual sources, and can only be regarded as examples of modern Hindu exegetical or apologetic religious writing; even if they do not always come with the requisite label warning us of their real intentions." To which I subscribe still. There are scholars and scholars. Some are religionists, some are politicians. I would say the same about sectarian Christian writings involving the Bible or their use by politicians in this country and elsewehre. In short, misreporting... Members are advised to read the passage themselves. I can reproduce it in a separate message if someone asks for it. >(still mild next to Erdosy's dismissing Talageri as a >"lunatic", no >less, p.x),-- all without having seen Talageri's book. how do you know that? - Again, Erdosy on p. x reads much more nuanced that Elst's quote. He talks about the older Aryan hypothesis and says "its support of the status quo will probably insure its survival on the political stage" where he adds the footonote: " In spite of spirited opposition, which has intensified recently -- cf. Biswas 1990, Chowdhury 1993; Telagiri (sic) 1993. .... Assertion of the indigenous origin of Indo-Aryan languages and an insitence on a long chronology for vedic and even Epic literature are only a few of the most prominent tenets of this emerging lunatic fringe." > How else shall we >explain his total ignorance of Talageri's arguments >(though these specifically clash with Witzel's approach to reconstructing >Vedic history), and > more pointedly, the error in Talageri's name (Telagiri) I had a vague memory that Telegiri was added to my paper by Erdosy, and on checking, indeed, his name was not in my footnote of the original file. Should not have allowed this. But the buck stops with me. This is, unfortunately, not the only (printing) mistake in that paper. I have already apologized for it in my paper in "Inside the Texts" (HOS-Opera Minora 2, 1997, note 21, and hope to reprint it in a correct version soon). and the misidentification of his publisher >(Aditya instead of Voice of India), The details of the bibliography were done, just as the rewriting of my Germanic Engl. draft, to a large degree, by G. Erdosy, since I was extremely busy at the time. Of course I am responsible for the outcome (though I did not see the press proof). I do not wriggle out of this. Again, my responsibility. -- One learns from mistakes. >both identical to the errors in the >Times of India (17 June 1993) review of the book? I do not read the Times of India. See above. >Basing opinions on second-hand reports yet pretending otherwise in the >footnote is no big deal, but please confine it to neutral references, not >one underpinning such sweeping condemnation. See above; there is some misquoting here by Elst (of Erdosy's and my own case) and undue generalisations of his own. > Prof. Witzel also favours integration of different types of evidence. >But what can such synthesis deliver when all the separate types of evidence >fail to support the AIT? Archaeologists and anthropologists have not >identified any findings as distinctly Aryan-invader. How many times do I have to repeat that I do not favor the "Aryan invasion" theory?? I did a computer check on my 2 papers in the 1995 vol. and I have used the words "invasion" & "invader" 7 times, -- never supporting the "Aryan invasion" but characterizing other's ideas such as Wheeler's and referring to *real* invasions (Turks in Bulgaria, Alexander's Greeks in S., Asia, Normans, etc. -- Instead, I exhorted scholars to give up the "vague concepts of 'tribal invasions'," and I also said: " The idea of a cataclismic invasion has, in fact, been given up long ago by Vedic scholars - " How can Elst misread an English paper that much?? By now, we have to become very suspicious about ANY "quote" made by him! ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Sep 7 21:52:11 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 99 22:52:11 +0100 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227052031.23782.10507090119387767406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:42 +0200 9/7/99, Koenraad Elst wrote: (part 2) (invasion:) As mentioned, archaeologists, linguists, vedicists etc. have been developing much more sophisticated and involved models (which I hope to delineate soon). > Dr. Thompson requests one RV verse proving indigenousness. Numerous >scholars .... failed to identify a single RV verse proving the invasion. You do not need resarch assistents etc, as Elst insinuates, (see above what happens!) -- just read the text yourself. (NB he still has not told us which *translation* he uses, come on!). The question of an actual direct statement "here we have come!" has been discussed before on this list and in books. This is not the nature of the RV ,nor of other hymns directed to the gods. Such stories anyhow are rare, and where they exist (Abraham coming from Ur, The Romans from Troy !) they are suspicious, to be polite. >AIT's next line of defence, viz. a pre-Harappan Aryan invasion; invasion??? Again: * Whose* Mantra? -- and certainly not before 2600 BCE, when domesticated "Aryan" horses and chariots still were far off to the north of the Turkmen, Uzbek deserts.... Why imagine and posit what scholars might come up with -- when they don't and WON'T???? -- which is indeed a legitimate possibility. Nope. Too early. > I am >simply having a good time pulling the leg of people who are far too sure of >their case relative to their meagre evidence. We have see above, how. Next time with exact quotes, please!!! Readers beware. & return to sender: IE interpretation of the Indus inscriptions?? An IA home in the Panjab with IE words such as birch (bhUrja), and on the other hand, clear innnovations for local plants and animals (hast-in 'elephant', dviip-in 'leopard" etc.)??? Precisely, what I miss and what he dismisses (above) : mutually agreeing evidence from *various* fields of scholarship, not isolated points (astronomy) which have other, *easy* (not contorted) explanations... In short, he has to do better if he wants to pull our leg. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Tue Sep 7 18:34:17 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 00:04:17 +0530 Subject: Closing remarks to Dr. Vassilkov (& Mr. Agarwal) (II) Message-ID: <161227052007.23782.12367971404378463922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 7F00,0000,0000(continuation) On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:13:35 +0200 Koenraad Elst wrote: 7F00,0000,0000> I have discussed the debate between you and Rajaram in a > chapter of my book Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate (Aditya > Prakashan 1999), also available as a separate article on my > website. 0000,0000,0000A debate? Did he ever respond to what I had written? At the time, I was a subscriber to the Indian Express, and it must have slipped my attention if he attempted anything like a debate. 7F00,0000,0000> What is not discussed there is why Rajaram mentions "Zydenbos (or > his ghostwriter)". Since you see ghostwriters even on this > weblist, this point deserves explanation. [...] 0000,0000,0000Shabby, if what you state is so. But not surprising. E.g., for somebody who fulminates against linguistics, it is bizarre that Rajaram wrote that comparative linguistics did not exist in Max M?ller's time; he even uses the term "Indo-European" incorrectly in col. 2 of his article (see the above URL). Evidently he did no research about me either, and so he goofed again when bringing up my name, six years down the road. (If he already becomes noisy while getting these simple things wrong, we may wonder about the rest of his writing.) And you choose to defend this nonsense? 7F00,0000,0000> Moreover, the use of Indian English and the reference to the > non-historian J. Nehru as an argument of authority also indicate > that the author was Indian (though, speaking from experience, I > am aware that foreign residents easily adopt the Indian > style). 0000,0000,0000My Indian Express article was in fact edited and reduced from 1800 words to under 1100 without my prior knowledge. The editor probably thought my point was sufficiently well made in just that much. And that is correct: more was not needed. As for Nehru: the issue in Rajaram's article is not ancient Indian history at all, even if the agitprop presents itself as such. People who are familiar with, e.g., European history in the earlier half of our century are familiar with this kind of phenomenon. What is amazing is that there are authors who insist that earlier views of ancient Indian history are political constructs, while at the same time they are, or pretend to be, blind to the possibility that the rewriting of that history today is at least equally politically motivated. Romila Thapar is a prominent person who pointed this out. In his IE article, Rajaram attempts a noisy dismissal of this. Yet by Rajaram's own admission (cf. the closing words of his article, if it is not clear already long before you reach them), this rewriting of history is a political matter. In your own convoluted 13- page item which you named after me you too say (in the final paragraph) that the AIT is a threat to India's unity and integrity. If this is so clear as you and Rajaram pretend it is, then why did not a leading politician and patriot like Nehru see it? (Behold my point, which you miraculously missed. I was quite explicit! And anyone can go check.The URL is there.) The answer is, of course, that nobody among the common folk in India, who are to be divided and ruled, really cares. It is a non-issue. Real issues include communalism: there are many people who despise Rajaram's insistence that the Vedas "are the wellsprings of our existence" and that this determines an Indian's identity. Ask around in Gujarat, where latter-day 'Aryans' torched churches not so long ago because Christians (how many are there?) are supposedly a threat to Indian culture and what not. Ask the people who were briefly listed in Namrata Bose's recent message. Not your "traditionalist upper-caste Hindus, who pride themselves on being [...] Arya, or Indian par excellence" (your p. 13). These words of yours make the main point of my reply to Rajaram. But maybe you haven't noticed. 7F00,0000,0000> However, you yourself told me in Madison 1996 that the article > was indeed authored by you, and you seemed an honest man to me. 0000,0000,0000Since you seem to know him well, you could have told him about my authorship, and thereby saved him the embarrassment. I have a few more difficulties with that article of yours, but they are a bit more complicated than basic questions of chronological order or precise quotations. Probably I have also reached my quota on the list for this week, so I will now turn my attention to more important matters while you reconsider whether 3 precedes 2, etc. For the time being, in view of the way in which you interpret modern English-language journalism, I fear that I have not much faith in your interpretation of Vedic passages, other data concerning ancient Indian history, and their relevance for contemporary India. Sincerely, RZ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 5103 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Tue Sep 7 18:34:18 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 00:04:18 +0530 Subject: Closing remarks to Dr. Vassilkov (& Mr. Agarwal) (I) In-Reply-To: <199909050913.OAA06257@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227052009.23782.10265863849197531169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 0100,0100,0100On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:13:35 +0200 Koenraad Elst wrote: 7F00,0000,0000> Dr. Zydenbos, > 7F00,0000,0000> You did make the statement cited (not quoted literally) by > Rajaram [...] 0100,0100,0100Oh, I see... Welcome to the list, Dr. Elst. So according to you I did make the statement, but not literally? Or how should we understand this? I would like to see that statement. But something tells me that you cannot show it to us. > I have a copy.0100,0100,0100 You need not be the only one with a copy of the relevant materials. For those who are interested in that brief statement of Rajaram's ethnocentric, xenophobic, quasi-religiously inspired view of the world, how this connects with his political antipathies, and the way in which all this is expressed, I can offer the following URL: http://www.angelfire.com/in/zydenbos/laermendepolemik.html Here one will find the full text of Rajaram's article as well as that of my response to it, graciously provided to me by the Indian Express when I visited their office recently. They can be read online or downloaded in a compressed zip archive in RTF and plain ASCII formats. We can leave it to the readers to decide for themselves whether Rajaram's (what shall we call it? 'non-literal', as you do? 'free'? 'imaginative'?) reference to me is based on what I have actually written or perhaps on a nightmare of his in which I unwittingly appeared. And the readers can also form an opinion about your special personal hermeneutics for interpreting short, contemporary English texts. 0100,0100,0100Let us go back to Rajaram. <<<> The readers can see whether my text (see the URL) contains a statement like Rajaram "is like Hitler", or: "is like the F?hrer", or: "is like the leader of the NSDAP". You see, I am making things easy: I will accept any of these possibilities as a refutation of my denial. Or let us look at another possibility. Is everybody who, at some time or the other, wittingly or unwittingly, innocently or deliberately, lent whatever kind of support to the Nazi program of ethnic hatred and confrontation, Mr Hitler? Now think carefully.This is probably a difficult question. Rajaram, in spite of being a scientist, could not come up with the right answer in all of six years. My _question_, viz.: <<<> which you quoted in your article / pamphlet which is honoured on your web page with the name "zydenbos.pdf" (p. 7), was a real question. Rajaram could have written back, saying "no, I don't see it" and explaining why I was wrong. Instead, he chose to make a fool of himself in that review of your book. Another thing in that pamphlet: <<<> (p. 9) I introduced them? I did? Dr. Elst! Why are you doing this? How about going through the relevant materials and updating yourself before uttering whacky accusations? In this case, you needed only to see that one article by Rajaram. By the way, perhaps you can enlighten me on something else. Immediately after quoting me in your pamphlet, you continue: <<<> Let us skip over the rhetoric of the passage. One thing disturbs me.You should have noticed that in my article I have referred to only one single bit of writing by Rajaram. I have not referred to anything prior to Dec. 1992. The only "published paper" I referred to is the November 1993 article. My question is: does December 1992 come after November 1993? Think carefully. It has something to do with numbers. I believe (like most scientists, by the way) that 1993 comes after 1992. I will make it simpler for you: it is something like 1, 2, 3, but the numbers are bigger this time. Of course you can argue that 3 comes before 2 if you count backwards. (Hindutva defenders indeed show a tendency to go backwards.) But I believe that this is not an appropriate justification here. (continued) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 4825 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Wed Sep 8 04:03:14 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 06:03:14 +0200 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227052033.23782.5258392407674597248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Zydenbos, your pedantic ironies cannot obscure the fact that you did bring in no less than three references to Hitler in your short article (one of them seconding such a reference by Romila Thapar), all while Hitler was an AIT believer like yourself. That the exact words were not "Rajaram is Hitler" makes no difference: bracketing someone with Hitler ("close to the Blut und Boden rhetoric of Nazism") does the trick well enough in smearing him. Indeed, these days, it is the single worst smear available to smearmasters, surpassing the other stuff I've seen in this debate, where AIT skeptics have been called lunatics, Atlantis freaks, obscurantists and what not. Surprising that some people on this list get indignated over Rajaram's dismissing Indology as a pseudo-science, for Rajaram's crudeness is very mild compared to what AIT defenders routinely throw at AIT skeptics. It is true that rewriting history may be done out of political motives, though these make no difference at all to the rightness or wrongness of the new version. But keeping the history books from being rewritten may equally be done out of political motives, and that is the story behind the denunciations of AIT skepticism in India. A JNU student gave it away during discussion time after David Frawley's lecture at JNU: "Alright, the AIT has been refuted. But because that bolsters the position of Hindu communalism, we should not accept the change." Dr. Fosse, your suggestion that it's useless discussing theories with politically committed people is fair enough. I in turn suggest that other list members who object to any debate with AIT skeptics start using this argument. It sounds more public-spirited than the argument of boredom, and has a bit more basis in fact than the claim that all the objections have already been rebutted. However, it all makes no difference to the status quaestionis of the research. Thus, if you don't want to explain to politically motivated AIT skeptics how you reconcile the geological data on the Saraswati with the Rg-Vedic data on the Saraswati (i.e. your alternative to moving the RV back a thousands years or more), at least you can tell your politically neutral colleagues, for that anomaly between the facts and the AIT is not going to go away just because someone can be banished from the debate for his alleged political motives. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Wed Sep 8 04:29:30 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 06:29:30 +0200 Subject: Talageri quote Message-ID: <161227052036.23782.18026981484898620875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel, I have not misquoted you, nor have I misquoted Prof. Erdosy. Indeed, you provide the passages yourself and they do include the words quoted, only both passages turn out to apply to more people than just Talageri. Which I never denied but was outside the scope of the point I was making. Thanks for your clarification that the bibliographical data which betray the false pretence of having consulted Talageri's book were provided by the book editor rather than by yourself. Also, I don't mind if you interpret the middle letter in "AIT" as "immigration" rather than "invasion": the distinction is unimportant relative to the basic implication of both, viz. a foreign origin. Finally, I can inform you that in a few weeks, Talageri's next book will be published. It contains a detailed discussion of your own reconstruction of Vedic history. Fortunately, a true scholar has nothing to fear from the lunatic fringe. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From GthomGt at CS.COM Wed Sep 8 11:56:52 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 07:56:52 -0400 Subject: Total instruments of debate Message-ID: <161227052041.23782.8152519584470259681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 9/8/99 4:45:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hart at POLBOX.COM writes: > Lastly, a question that may interest also other members of the List: what > was the traditional Indian equivalent of this kind of ultimate debate > weapon(s)? > Mantras GT From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Sep 8 14:14:53 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 10:14:53 -0400 Subject: Francoise L'Hernault (Was: Obituary: South Indianists) Message-ID: <161227052048.23782.317010580868964272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan requested a bibliography of the recently deceased French South Asianist Francoise L'Hernault. I am unable to provide a complete one including articles, but the Library of Congress has these three title: 1. 87-169216: L'Hernault, Francoise. Darasuram : epigraphical study : etude architecturale : etude iconographique / Paris : Ecole francaise d'Extreme-Orient : Depositaire, Libr. A. Maisonneuve, 1987. 2 v. : ill. ; 34 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: DS525.5 .E25 1926 t. 16 2. 79-904725: L'Hernault, Francoise. L'iconographie de Subrahmanya au Tamilnad / Pondichery : Institut francais d'indologie, 1978. 272 p., {61} leaves of plates : ill., maps ; 26 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: NB1007.T35 L47 3. 76-485016: Temples pallava construits / Paris : Ecole francaise d'Extreme-Orient : diffusion, A. Maisonneuve, 1975. 123 p., xlv leaves of plates : ill. ; 37 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: DS525.5 .E25 1926 t. 9 And a search on OCLC comes up with these two more: L'Hernault, Francoise. Tiruvannamalai : un lieu saint sivaite du sud de l'Inde. 2, l'archeologie du site / Francoise L'Hernault, Pierre Pichard, Jean Deloche. Paris : Ecole francaise d'Extreme-Orient, 1990. Pichard, Pierre. Vingt ans apres Tanjavur, Gangaikondacholapuram. Volume 2, Illustrations. Paris : Ecole francaise d'Extreme-Orient,1994. [188] p. : ill., cartes, plans ; 37 cm. (Publications de l'Ecole francaise d'Extreme-Orient. Memoires archeologiques ; 20.) OTHER: L'Hernault, Francoise. Boudignon, Francoise. Thyagarajan, L. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From hart at POLBOX.COM Wed Sep 8 08:42:15 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 10:42:15 +0200 Subject: Total instruments of debate In-Reply-To: <01bef58d$fb7fc080$1001703e@deze-computer> Message-ID: <161227052040.23782.6355208767504937556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:54 2.09.1999 +0200, Koenraad Elst wrote: >Respected Colleagues, >Most >pro-invasion polemicists, like Romila Thapar and Shereen Ratnagar, focus on >alleged political connotations (not realizing that Hitler was in their own >camp?), but beat around the bush when it comes to the hard evidence. and At 06:03 8.09.1999 +0200, Koenraad Elst wrote: >bracketing someone with Hitler ("close to the Blut und >Boden rhetoric of Nazism") does the trick well >enough in smearing him. Indeed, these days, it is the single worst smear >available to smearmasters, surpassing the other stuff I've seen in this >debate, where AIT skeptics have been called lunatics, Atlantis freaks, >obscurantists and what not. Am getting a bit confused - who smears and who's smeared here? That infamous Aryan enthusiast Adolf Hitler in the role of smearing matter (Kal Jug type of total-astra) seems to be left kinda masterless and is made free use of by everybody around. Some reflexions on that? Lastly, a question that may interest also other members of the List: what was the traditional Indian equivalent of this kind of ultimate debate weapon(s)? With regards, Artur K(onrad) Karp University of Warsaw Poland From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU Wed Sep 8 17:16:44 1999 From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 12:16:44 -0500 Subject: Mian Abbas und Padre Zyndenbos In-Reply-To: <19990907230247.92798.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052056.23782.10638754873748777662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am disturbed by recent messages, including and especially this one, which have degenerated to a level of name-calling that I, for one, find utterly deplorable. Can't we do better than this? Hans Henrich Hock >Hell Mian Abbas, > >I am really impressed by your proofs that most people of North India are >foreigners. In fact, your name also reminds me of the Iranian Abbassids. I >really liked your equation Shaiekh = Arab, because it reminded me of a >proverb of Bengali Muslims--" Today I am an Ansar. If my crops are good this >year, I will become a Shaiekh. And if they are good next year also, I will >become a Sayyad." I also had a Pakistani (Balochi ) friend who was 1/16 Arab >because a great grandfather was an Arab. And he was so proud that he is >superior to Pakis because they are Indians while he is an Arab! > >I am all for empowerment of women. Whenever you launch an agitation for >Muslim women (Nikaahed or Talaqued or those "Whom the right hands of Muslim >men possess"--Koran) to tear their viels, abolish polygamy, give maintenance >to Shah Bano and also save little Ameena from the old Abdullah. I will be >ready with my slogans: > >Aaj ki naari phool nahin chingari hai >Hamse jo takreyaga choor choor ho jayega. >= >I am really happy that you gave me that website address. It shows how >millions of Indian bahans are killed every year. I will now read that report >to find out why every 3rd child that is conceived in the USA is aborted. Or >why the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan has the lowest Women : Men ratio in the >world. As a return favor, I am listing the addresses of some Islamic >websites here. If these are not ISLAMIC enough, tell me. I will give you the >address of Taliban and Hamas. >1. Hindu Kush means Hindu Slaughter > http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_kush.html >2. The Magnitude of Muslim Atrocities (From Ghaznavi to Taimur) >http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/moghal_atro.html >3. Hindu Genocide in East Pakistan >http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_bangla.html >4. Persecution of Christians in Islamic Lands >http://www.domini.org/openbook/ >5. Murderous Assaults of Indonesian Muslims on Indonesian Christians >http://www.huaren.org/focus/ >6. Destruction of Hindu Temples by Aurangzeb >http://www.hindunet.org?hindu_history/modern/temple_aurangzeb.html >7. Minorities in Islam > http://www.lordbyron.org/D8YeOr.htm >8. The Place of Women in Pure Islam > http://debate.domini.org/newton/womeng.html >9. The Holy War > http://answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/war.html >10. Satyameva Jayate > http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/ > >I also agree with Padre Zynedbos that Koenraad Elst must write on the >destruction of huts oops! churches at Dangs. Also mention that the riot >started when some true Christians stoned some Hindu monks addressing a Hindu >rally. Also add a list of the the many hundred Hindu Rheang women who were >raped in Christian Mizoram last year because they did not want to become >Christian. Also add the continued persecution of Hindus by Christians in >Nagaland, Hilly areas of Manipur, Mizoram and in Christian parts of >Arunachal. > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Hans Henrich Hock, Director Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies 220 International Studies Building, MC-489 910 S. Fifth Street Champaign IL 61820 217-265-5016, 217-244-7331 fax 217-333-6270 e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu ***Visit our website at: http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/ From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Sep 8 12:17:18 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 12:17:18 +0000 Subject: SV: Closing remarks to Dr. Vassilkov (& Mr. Agarwal) (II) Message-ID: <161227052043.23782.208310468692045160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > >From my readings in Indigenism, it would seem clear that the "Aryan-Dravidian" > divide plays a very important role in the history-writing of the Indigenists. > In other words: because a certain interpretation of history seems to create > problems between the North and the South, it has to be rejected and replaced by > a less inconvenient theory..... > Their job is to manipulate history in the same manner as communist > and fascist historians manipulated *their* histories in order to use them as > political tools. So is a debate meaningful at all? This is not a fair remark: Fosse's argument against the credibility of Indigenists postulations could apply equally well to AIT or out of India origin of Aryans. It is easy for one say that the hidden agenda of all European and American whites, why fascists and communists only, has been to uphold the hegemonic powers of Aryans ancestors as conquerers and colonisers of Greece and India, two major ancient civilisations, and as modern European civilisation has nothing more solid to fall back upon except the Stonehenge, they interpret the history of Greece and India as unoriginal. It could also be alleged that Euro-scepticism about Indian origin of Aryans is to perpetuate the North vs South disparity in the political order. Instead of imputing political motives let us remember the crucial drawbacks of AIT as well as the Idigenists arguments. On one hand there is no archeological evidence of an Aryan homeland in Europe of Central Asia on the other the Indus script is still unread. Language, equine zoology, ash layers and astrology, etc., have not combined still to be anything more than fluid and conjectural. AIT whether hard, soft or pulp, presumes a "balance of convenience" in favour of North to South movement and the Indigenists believe in vice-versa as they point out that Harappan civilisation could be Aryan as the only place where Aryan culture surives to this day is India. From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Wed Sep 8 07:17:34 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 12:47:34 +0530 Subject: Mian Abbas und Padre Zyndenbos In-Reply-To: <19990907230247.92798.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052038.23782.5156222409365006886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> WARNING: The following message is devoid of any academic quality. If you are offended by polemics, please don't read on. I am just responding to Panditani (oops - Boses aren't Brahmins !) sorry, Ms. Bose's comments so she can't claim victory over me. Namaskaaram Namraata Bose, > I also agree with Padre Zynedbos that Koenraad Elst must write on the > destruction of huts oops! churches at Dangs. Is that supposed to be `Zydenbos' ? Maybe such mistakes arise from your retroflexion of `two's and `threes' in your particular dialect. Could we know which dialect of Bengali you speak (that is,if you are a Bengali) ? > Hello Mian Abbas. I am really impressed by your proofs that most people > of North India are foreigners. Equally impressive is the way in which the history of such people is denied and wilfully distorted : http://www.khalistan.net/gskhalsa.htm > In fact, your name also reminds me of the Iranian Abbassids. And yours reminds me of Netaji Subhash Bose. In one of the Hindutva sites you so support it is claimed that the Brahmin Pandit Nehru killed him. What do you think ? Of course, you don't care, because your real name is not `Bose'. > I really liked your equation Shaiekh = Arab, because it reminded me of > a proverb of Bengali Muslims--" Today I am an Ansar. If my crops are > good this year, I will become a Shaiekh. And if they are good next year > also, I will become a Sayyad." That also reminds me of a proverb of Bengali Hindus : "Today I am a Musahar [ rat-eating Sudra ] , if I am rich, my daughter will become a Kayastha, and if her son is rich, he will become a Brahmin'. I got this from one of my many good Kanoj Brahmin friends, who oppose `pollution and desecration of Aryan blood'. And yes - they are all tall and fair, and hardcore Brahmin Nationalist Ranvir Sena supporters. (Hint : they don't like Bengalis because of fellow Kayastha Jyoti Basu's red fort). > I am all for empowerment of women. One method of empowerment you forgot is the noble institution of sati, which the comrades at BJP are trying to revive. I'll be gladly present at your ceremony. But I'll need your home and office adress, and phone no. > Aaj ki naari phool nahin chingari hai > Hamse jo takreyaga choor choor ho jayega. Too bad - I don't speak Khari Boli which was invented in the 20th century ! Once again, Bengalis are not keen on Hindi, and this makes me doubly doubtful of your true identity. > I am really happy that you gave me that website address. It shows how > millions of Indian bahans are killed every year. I will now read that report > to find out why every 3rd child that is conceived in the USA is aborted. Or > why the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan has the lowest Women : Men ratio in the > world. Once again, utter disregard for womanhood. Confirms my suspicions of your true identity. True feminists would have been apalled by my message. And Indian feminists are of course more concerned with India than any Arab countries. This shows that you are not any `Namrata Bose'. I guess you just fell into my little trap. Hehe. > As a return favor, I am listing the addresses of some Islamic > websites here. If these are not ISLAMIC enough, tell me. I will give you the > address of Taliban and Hamas. You forgot http://www.foil.org/, set up by your Bengali comrades from the CPI. Check out the articles by the Brahmin Partha Banerjee there and at http://www.mnet.fr/aiindex. Remember, lower castes questioning their Brahmin masters face expulsion as per the Manusmrti ! None of the websites you mentioned has anywhere a death toll exceeding 50 million. And they cannot - Hitler, one of history's greatest mass murderers, killed `only' 5 million Jews. Samar From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Sep 8 13:04:19 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 13:04:19 +0000 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227052045.23782.12872035562127556454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> C.R. Selvakumar wrote: > Tamil music, a branch of which today is called Carnatic > music, is more than 2000 years old but in the last 50-60 years, > there is undoubtedly a tendency to sing mostly the 'Trinity's > krithis and there are also a large number of brAhmana exponents. > The art of Carnatic music is in no small measure advanced by > great Naagasuram players none of whom is a brAhmana (except may be one > or two who are not exponents anyway). > In short what you are claiming is a gross distortion. The Aryan-Dravidian debate need uphold the lower caste of Nagasuram players as a repository of Tamil originality of Caranatic music. Music, by the way, is not the literary content of vocal compositions, whether it be the kritis of South or bandish or prabandhas of North. Music of every region also is a grammatical system. All Indian musical scales "melas" of South and "thaats" of North are classifications made after the Turkish invasion and a strong conditioning by the Arabic/Iranian maqam system (derived from the "harmonai" of Greeks) of twelve notes is not ruled out. The ancient Indian system of Graama-murcchanaa classification (followed in toto by Chilapadikaram) prevailed in the North and the South as well till 13th century approximately. Even the ancient Indian system shows deep parallels with the Greek system. Originality and separate identity, Tamil or Northen Aryan is not so easy to locate. Bharat Gupt Associate Prof. Delhi Univ. From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Wed Sep 8 17:51:55 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 13:51:55 -0400 Subject: Tamil Heritage (was Aryan invasion debate) Message-ID: <161227052061.23782.12780648453869112124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: *But are the non-Indian religious texts considered as the epitome of Tamizh *literature? The "Aim Perum KApiyangal" or the five great epics of the *Tamizh literature are closely related to Arya culture. So is probably *the finest work in Tamizh literature - the Kamba RAmAyanam *(which the dravidian nationalists so *sadly ignore!). *And this is what I'm trying to point out. Many Tamils consider Sangam literature, which is essentially secular or only mildly religious, is considered the epitome of Tamil literature. The tirukkuRaL, which is a secular literaure, is also considered to be an epitome of Tamil literature. In Silappatikaaram, the story of KaNNaki and the Tamil poetics which are admired and not the buddhist/jainist philosophies per se except a few which are also common with native tamil philosophies. (such as a notion of Karma etc. which are of dravidian origin as well) Same goes for other tamil literature. In later periods (say starting from 500 C.E to 1000 C.E or even to present day) Saivite and Vaishnavite literatures as in Tamil are held in high esteem. These are not 'arya' culture, but tamil culture! Temple worship, Bhakti movement, etc. are dravidian/tamil culture. *If you can point out a *substantial* literary corpus which shows no Arya *connections and points to an original individual identity of *the Tamizh people, it would be more useful for the discussion. What are you trying to say ? Tamils don't have any original identity and no original literature ? Just an example: about 500 poets, including several women poets, between 300 B.C.E and 300 C.E., produced a body of literature, a part of which are collectively known as Sangam works (such as puRa naanURu, aka naanURu etc.). Are they not original literaure of Tamils depicting Tamils' way of life ? Are not the post Sangam works such as Silappatikaaram depict Tamils way of life ? and tirukkuRaL Tamils' outlook and way of life? Why, show me a body of literature in 'Arya' culture like Sangam works or even much later poems of Azvaar or some nAyanmaars called thEvAram. Since you vaguely say 'connection' I can ask the same question you're asking me - just replace Arya with Dravida. Even the Vedas including RV has connection with Dravidian as evident from the linguistics. * *> By the way the tamil work tirukkuRaL is not a Jaina work, *> though it is often claimed so. * *Just asserting that it is not so will not do. Please give us more proof. If *you want I can give you the Samskrutam name by which it is referred *to by the JainAs.And they think that Thiruvalluvar was just *the publisher and not the author. Give me your proof that tirukkuRaL is a Jaina work, and I'll extend my arguments. It is not just to you Nanda Chandran, to any indologist. If I should learn something new, I'll be happy to revise my opinion. Anyone who knows the intricate depth of tirukkuRaL, would certainly be quite amused by your comment that tiurvaLLuvar was 'just the publisher' :-) * *>The brAhmanas may be people who have accepted Vedas *> like Tamil Christians who have accepted Bible, *> but apart from the few differences in spiritual and cultural *> practices due to their 'religion' or 'sub-religion' they are *> by and large Tamils in their ethnicity, language and culture. * *By this I don't really understand as to where you're pointing! *If the Tamizh brAhmanas are of the same race as the dravidian Tamizhs, *then why not the rest of the brAhmanas in India? Some Tamils are Christians but not all Christians are Tamils. *> The Saiva Siddhantha was systematised by Meykandaar who is not a brAhmana *> and the Saivite school is in part crystallized by Sekkizaar *> who wrote PeriyapuraaNam. *There's a big difference between systematizing the doctrines of a religion *and systematic philosophic thought. My reply was a counter point to your claim and now you've shifted the question! The systematic philosophic thoughts in Saiva and Vaishanva tamil literature are born out of Tamils spiritual experience. Suppose I feel the thirst, the thirst is not Arya or Dravida and I drink water and sing my happiness, it is not Arya and Dravida. Tamils have a great heritage in spiritual experience and philosophical thoughts just like many other peoples. The Tamils experiences are beautifully expressed in various ways in their native Tamil. * *>The only problem is brAhmanas of non-tamil origin, who came from the *>north at various periods, not knowing the tamil roots, try to *>propagate the 'arya-centric' view as you are doing. * *This is a new angle, but definitely worth pursuing. If somebody could come *up with the earliest date of literature in Samskrutam in the Southern lands, *we could see if the brAhmanas in early Tamil Nadu had a preference to Tamizh over *Samskrutam. Katyanana and Patanjali are supposed to be 'southerners' but in any case there is *probably* more contribution to Samskrutam from tamil lands than elsewhere. I'm open to correction here. * *FYI, my mother and grandmother are both pulavar level in Tamizh (they just *laugh outright at the claim that Tamizh is not their native tongue!). *And both have nurtured enough Tamizh pattru in me since childhood *that I'll never degrade it on any false claim. So I'm not 'Arya centric' as you presume, but am just trying to *ascertain facts. So please let's not get carried away by our emotions and *let's try to remain objective. The 'tamil pattru' is not an issue here. Your posting to which I first replied and this posting here again show extreme Arya-centric view (to the extent that you completely dismiss any Tamil or Dravidian heritage) and I'm surprised by your denial! * *> The art of Carnatic music is in no small measure advanced by *> great Naagasuram players none of whom is a brAhmana (except may be one *> or two who are not exponents anyway). * *But this doesn't in anyway undermine the position of the 'trinity' in the *field. You should know that there was a 'trinity' prior to the current trinity! * *> Most of the Tamil brAhmanas are dravidians! * *So why don't classical dravidian exponents (and there're quite a few on this *list!) accept it to be so? *And I'm not really clear with your stand regarding the AIT, for you assert *that the Tamizh brAhmanas are dravidians! So please state your position *in your next *post, so *we can be clear as to what're arguing for! I don't have any stand in AIT, all that I'm arguing here is the Tamils/Dravidians have an independent heritage and culture. * *>There are people who have declared that it is a shame to call *> Tamil a language when it has got only a few letters in the alphabet *> which are different from the Sanskrit and now you think ('it seems') *> 'dravidian culture has no idenity of its own'! *> Nothing new! Just as incorrect as ever! * *I just wish you'd more facts to support your claims, instead of mere *assertions. One Mr. Caminata Desikar, a Sanaskrit Scholar said of Tamil language, "Intelligent persons will be ashamed to call it a language that possesses only five letters" (see page 10 in M. Varadarajan, "A History of Tamil Literature" translated by E.S. Visswanathan & published by Sahitya Akademi 1988) C.R.Selvakumar From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Sep 8 18:00:13 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 14:00:13 -0400 Subject: Total instruments of debate In-Reply-To: <37D6D477.5404@del3.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227052062.23782.1341545436535823503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Such ugly debates, as we are witnessing on this network, are not new to the Sanskrit tradition. The Advaitins wrote works titled Madhvatantramukhamardanam, the Dvaitins wrote Tarkataa.n.davam, the Buddhists wrote Tarka-jvaalaa, and Jagannaatha wrote Manoramaa- kucamardinii. The only instrument against such ugly debates is the use of the DELETE key on the keyboard. If any one needs advice in Sanskrit: duurato vaa visarjanam Madhav Deshpande From GthomGt at CS.COM Wed Sep 8 18:06:33 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 14:06:33 -0400 Subject: Total instruments of debate Message-ID: <161227052064.23782.8633677044192029580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 9/8/99 1:32:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN writes: > GTSorry , George , that is not true even traditionally. Mantras are effective > only if you > belief in them to "call upon" the gods and pusue "rituals". They are for > believers only. > For indologists and academics of any place or country, there are no mantras, > there are > only verses or poetical/metrical texts for historical study or any other > agenda. .... With all due respect, Bharat, please look at RV 1.152.2. There you will see how mantras are used in the RV Best, George Thompson From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Wed Sep 8 18:58:50 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 14:58:50 -0400 Subject: Genetics and Mr. Abbas Message-ID: <161227052067.23782.14836623955485453102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ravindran sri wrote: > Is the injustice against dalits and women merely > "perceived"? Depends on the context. There is no shortage of great injustices everywhere and this list is no place to discuss all of them. In particular, at the present time there seem to be far more injustices being perpetrated by the so-called dalits and women who have more than lion's share in the power structure of India. The present President of India is a dalit who cannot claim to be an outcome of any injustice towards him and the worst misuse of power was undertaken by a woman PM. It is the power that corrupts all. Today's victim can become a perpetrator of injustice when the situations change. Some people are just in the business of exploiting the poor and victims to reap unfair advantages for themselves by claiming to be their champions. These people are more despicable than those who victimize them directly due to their own ignorance. From GthomGt at CS.COM Wed Sep 8 19:09:18 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 15:09:18 -0400 Subject: SV: Date of the Buddha and RV Message-ID: <161227052069.23782.11466399719978564145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 9/7/99 11:16:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE writes: > Having an untransparant etymology is not the same as having a non-Indo-Aryan > etymology. And 'hundreds' is really a gross exageration. Well, Kuiper lists 380 possible loanwords in the RV. Even if you could come up with alternative IA etymologies for 180 of these, "hundreds" would still not be an exaggeration. But the issue is not simply a matter of etymology, whether untransparent or otherwise. It is also a matter of context, as Kuiper himself has observed: "The main critierion for distinguishing inherited IA words from borrowings is morphological [e.g., ja'na- versus kuNDRNA'cI-] or phonological, but the context may sometimes be an additional reason for assuming a foreign origin, e.g., in the case of personal or tribal names. It can even be the only argument: a'nitabhA- [RV 5.53.9], name of a river, could from a morphological or phonological point of view perfectly well be taken as an IA bahuvrIhi. However, no acceptable etymology has been proposed, and in the context of the verse mA' vo rasA' 'nitabhA ku'bhA kru'mur mA' vaH si'ndhur ni' rIramat it would seem probable that it was, like ku'bhA and kru'mu-, a local river name that was adopted by the Indo-Aryans." [*Aryans in the RV* p. 89] As for your counter etymology of ku'bhA-, I am not persuaded. > > Ku'bhA- probably belongs together with Avestan kaofa-, Old Persian kaufa- ' > mountain ridge'; 'hunch', IA *kubba- (CDIAL 3301) and kubhra'- to IE *keub-/*keubh-, > *kubho-s 'bent, curved'. Notice the voiced aspirated stop, which is a very > typical Indo-Aryan feature. While I can see adequate semantic links between the Iranian evidence ['mountain ridge'] and Skt. kubhra'- ['hump-backed bull'], I fail to see such links with a river name ku'bhA. By the way, Kuiper has dealt with kubhra'- in *Aryans* [pp. 31 & 48], suggesting a Munda etymology. As for ku'bhA-, I don't think that the language from which it derives is known. Also, the very isolation of the name in Vedic and, I think, in Skt. in general, makes Kuiper's argument stronger. At least that is how I see it. Erik Seldeslachts and I clearly disagree, but I think that it is possible to discuss such matters without rancor, as indeed ES has shown, for which I thank him. Best wishes, George Thompson From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Wed Sep 8 19:15:37 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 15:15:37 -0400 Subject: Are you still there? Message-ID: <161227052072.23782.12542952786777431143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am surprised that you have not yet intervened in the messages posted by Abbas? Are have you changed the norm for your list? From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Sep 8 14:07:36 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 16:07:36 +0200 Subject: The vyakarana list Message-ID: <161227052047.23782.16727828656941990021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list member, do any of you know how I can subscribe to the Vyakarana list? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 8 23:40:42 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 16:40:42 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage (Was Aryan invasion debate) Message-ID: <161227052085.23782.12435462124507811046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Selvakumar writes : > The tirukkuRaL, which is a secular literaure, is also considered to be > an epitome of Tamil literature. Why do you say ThirukkurAl is secular literature? Just because it concentrates only on the three aims of life and ignores God? The JainAs too don't believe in a creator God - does it make them secular? Also note Thiruvalluvars extreme views on vegetarianism - can you give me some similar views from the other secular or non-secular poets that you speak of? Plus the fact is that JainAs themselves claim the text to be their own. > (such as a notion of Karma etc. which are of dravidian origin as well) Is there any Tamizh text older than the Rg Veda or even the Buddha? If not, how can you claim that karma is of dravidian origin? Or of dravidian loan words in the Rg Veda? >Are they not original literaure of Tamils depicting > Tamils' way of life ? Are not the post Sangam works such as > Silappatikaaram depict Tamils way of life ? and tirukkuRaL Tamils' > outlook and way of life? It ofcourse reflects a way of life. For example if you take the kural, most JaniAs from whatever part of India, will feel pretty comfortable with it. Even if there are a few distinct differences, it is not unnatural when you take into account the regional diversity of the land. But what makes it truly distinct from the culture of the rest of India? > Why, show me a body of literature in 'Arya' culture like > Sangam works or even much later poems of Azvaar or some nAyanmaars called > thEvAram. In the first place I'm not the one arguing for the distinct identity. Whatever you've in Tamizh literature - be it prose, poetry or drama - you'll in most cases find its equivalent in Samskrutam. But again there's four thousand years worth of philosophical development in Samskrutam, which can hardly find a parallel in any language in the world, let alone Tamizh. And this distinguishes the Arya or the brAhmanical works from the rest. Systematic philosophy - whether brAhmanic or bauddha or jainA - seems to have been in most part only a brAhmana forte. And this can be attributed more to the vocation of the caste than to any racial distinctness. > Anyone who knows the intricate depth of tirukkuRaL, would certainly be > quite amused by your comment that tiurvaLLuvar was 'just the publisher' :-) Knowledge of the text doesn't neccessarily mean knowledge of the author. And apart from the legend that he was a weaver and a brother of avvaiyAr, I don't think there's much information about him for anybody to make substantial assertments about him. But the problem is that the JainA tradition thinks he wasn't the author. >The systematic philosophic thoughts in > Saiva and Vaishanva tamil literature are born out of Tamils spiritual > experience. Systematic philosophy is not doctrinal in a religious way, but an effort to solve the puzzle of the universe based on pure reason or in some cases to reconcile the experiences of seers with reason. If there's any significant quantity of this kind of literature in Tamizh, I'm not aware of it. > Katyanana and Patanjali are supposed to be 'southerners' But the problem is the Patanjali wrote his Yoga Sutras in Samskrutam. And all the classic commentaries on it are also in the same language. Even parallels exist in Tamizh, it hardly points to distinctness. > The 'tamil pattru' is not an issue here. Your posting to which I first > replied and this posting here again show extreme Arya-centric view > (to the extent that you completely dismiss any Tamil or Dravidian heritage) > and I'm surprised by your denial! But Tamizh pattru need not mean a "Tamizh only" supremacist attitude, but can also be raised to a integrating national cultural level. > I don't have any stand in AIT, all that I'm arguing here is > the Tamils/Dravidians have an independent heritage and culture. Your stand only implies the AIT stand. And saying that Tamil brAhmanas alone are dravidians will find no support from any quarter, especially from the brAhmanas themselves. Either accept all Indians to be one and accept your place amongst the seperatist crowd. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Wed Sep 8 14:41:55 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 16:41:55 +0200 Subject: Total instruments of debate Message-ID: <161227052051.23782.17781435890915020254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A. Konrad Karp sees a contradiction in my twin observations that "nazi" c.s. is today's top smear (a verifiable fact of life), and that I remind a few Indian invasionists about their agreement with Hitler on the AIT (a historical fact). On the contrary, in both cases I plead for a strict separation between political connotations of a theory and its truth or falseness. Associating Prof. Rajaram with Nazi blood-and-soil theories (as Dr. Zydenbos claims not to have done, and on second thought, there is no reason to disbelieve a man telling us what his own opinion is, the one question on which every man is the greatest expert) is baseless, but even if it were true, it would make no difference to the truth or otherwise of his theories. However, a lot of invasionist polemic focuses wholly or to a far too large extent on the political connotations of the non-invasion theory ("Hindu communalist"), and silently (sometimes openly) implies that this political connotation necessarily decides the untruth of the non-invasion theory. That is why I remind invasionist polemicists that if they want to decide on a historical question on the basis of its political connotations, they ought to remember in what company the AIT puts them. But I am not at all implying that just because of Hitler's preferences, the AIT and its sympathizers are intrinsically Hitlerian, nor that the AIT is therefore untrue. I am not associating Profs. Thapar and Ratnagar with Hitler eventhough all three are juxtaposed in one sentence. Most of you seem to feel comfortable enough sharing a platform with Hitler on the AIT, just as ecologists don't mind demanding the re-enactment of policies of which Hitler was an unacknowledged pioneer (protection of endangered species, tree-planting campaigns, industry regulations demanding environmental-effect reports). For the truth of a theory, the membership of its fan club is irrelevant. sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Sep 8 14:44:47 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 16:44:47 +0200 Subject: SV: SV: Closing remarks to Dr. Vassilkov (& Mr. Agarwal) (II) Message-ID: <161227052054.23782.5960033983664967090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bharat Gupt [SMTP:abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN] skrev 08. september 1999 14:17: [LM Fosse wrote]> > > > >From my readings in Indigenism, it would seem clear that the "Aryan- > > >Dravidian" > > divide plays a very important role in the history-writing of the > > Indigenists. > > In other words: because a certain interpretation of history seems to create > > problems between the North and the South, it has to be rejected and replaced > > by > > a less inconvenient theory..... > > Their job is to manipulate history in the same manner as communist > > and fascist historians manipulated *their* histories in order to use them > > as > > political tools. So is a debate meaningful at all? > [Bharat Gupta wrote:] > This is not a fair remark: > Fosse's argument against the credibility of Indigenists postulations could > apply > equally well to AIT or out of India origin of Aryans. Much of the indigenist critique - as far as I can see - claims precisely that the "invasion" theory is politically motivated. I would therefore like to point out that both the Aryans and their geographical displacements have been conspicuously absent from public debates in the West since the end of the second world war. Apart from a lunatic fascist fringe and a few scholars who specialise in this field, the Aryans and their origins have lost all interest with the general public and the politicians. This is not the case in India. In India the debate has a *specific* political function. In the West, it has no function at all, and Western politicians do not need the Aryans and their origins to justify anything. I don't think that my remark is unfair, I think it is simply pragmatic. It is easy for one say > that the > hidden agenda of all European and American whites, why fascists and communists > only, has > been to uphold the hegemonic powers of Aryans ancestors as conquerers and > colonisers of > Greece and India, two major ancient civilisations, and as modern European > civilisation > has nothing more solid to fall back upon except the Stonehenge, they interpret > the > history of Greece and India as unoriginal. It is not my impression that the history of Greece is regarded as unoriginal. Quite to the contrary, the West owes the foundations of its intellectual culture to the combined efforts of Greeks, Romans and Hebrews. And the Greek role is extremely important. Nor would I personally claim that the culture of India is unoriginal. Quite to the contrary, Indian culture has a number of highly interesting and quite unique features which are not parallelled elsewhere. It could also be alleged that Euro- > scepticism > about Indian origin of Aryans is to perpetuate the North vs South disparity in > the > political order. This could certainly be claimed, but it does not make sense. Every modern politician knows perfectly well that dominance in politics is a function of economic and military power. As long as the majority of your population is well fed and has enough brain-dead entertainment to keep it occupied, you don't really have to produce a lot of justification. Using the Aryans in a Western society that is increasingly loosing its sense of history has no meaning whatsoever. > Instead of imputing political motives let us remember the crucial drawbacks of > AIT as > well as the Idigenists arguments. The political motives of the indigenists are there for everyone to see. The history of indigenism shows quite clearly that it mostly is the product of political expediency. There are other motives as well, but politics are important. And my point remains the same, although it can be generalized: In all cases where ulterior motives, whether these are of a theological, a political or an economic reason, play a part in determining people's views, an academic debate quickly looses its meaning. Contrary to what it may seem, I personally don't really give a damn about the origin of the Indo-Europeans. For me, this debate is primarily about professional method. If you can demonstrate with sufficient probability that the Indo-Europeans came from India, that is fine with me. But so far, all I have seen is a lot of bad scholarship where arguments ex silentio are given far more weight than they should have under normal circumstances, and where linguistic evidence is either ignored or treated incompetently. On one hand there is no archeological > evidence of an > Aryan homeland in Europe of Central Asia on the other the Indus script is > still unread. I don't think this is correct at all. There is evidence that Indo-Europeans have been in Europe for a very long time. And some would certainly claim, with good specific arguments, that archaeological evidence from South Russia is Indo-European. > Language, equine zoology, ash layers and astrology, etc., have not combined > still to be > anything more than fluid and conjectural. AIT whether hard, soft or pulp, > presumes a > "balance of convenience" in favour of North to South movement and the > Indigenists > believe in vice-versa as they point out that Harappan civilisation could be > Aryan as the > only place where Aryan culture surives to this day is India. Any attempt to reconstruct a general history for the oldest layers of Indo-European culture will necessarily be partly conjectural. That is what happens when you have no historical documents.It is important to realize from the outset that a number of things cannot be *proven*, they can only be regarded as possible or probable. However, the movements of the Indo-Iranians and Indo-Aryans must be fitted into the general picture of Indo-European dispersal, and so far the indigenists have not been able to do this. The reason why western scholars tend to hang on to the Eurasian origin of the I-E is that the probability mass - all things considered - rests in favour of such a solution. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Sep 8 21:40:55 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 17:40:55 -0400 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227052078.23782.214580083591567789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In discussing why Tamils characterized their language as mother, goddess, maiden, etc., Sumathi Ramaswamy says, < In the pre-colonial poetic traditions to which Tamil's modern devotees are indebted in myriad ways, the feminization of Tamil was largely underdeveloped, although not entirely absent. And the language was not associated with motherhood. In the rare instances when it was personified, its gender was either unspecified or even male.[36] Yet, from the late nineteenth century on, the personification of Tamil relied extensively on the female form clothed in maternal garb. Such a feminization of the language, however, was neither idiosyncratic nor exceptional, but symptomatic of a fundamental regendering of culture and community under colonial rule and modernity.> p. 121 Footnote 36 reads ).> p. 264 In the first sentence, Ramaswamy says that in the pre-colonial traditions, feminization of Tamil was not entirely absent. Based on this one might think that she has come across some instances of Tamil being portrayed as a female. Now, consider what she says two sentences later. She says that in the rare instances Tamil was personified "its gender was either unspecified or even male." There is no characterization of Tamil as female here. Moreover, her footnote gives references to the nineteenth century colonial characterization of Tamil as male while the discussion is about pre-colonial traditions! This is strange indeed. She does not give any instance of Tamil being personified as a female in the pre-colonial period, which is relevant for the discussion. But she gives nineteenth century references for Tamil being characterized as a male which is totally irrelevant. We can only conclude she did not have any pre-colonial examples to show. Why did she not have them? It is not because they did not exist. Ramaswamy did not do the philological work necessary to identify them. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Sep 8 21:55:51 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 17:55:51 -0400 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227052083.23782.8192920169101519864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Portrayal of Tamil as a female has a very long history, about 1,500 years at least. It occurs in cilappatikAram, the pre-Kalidasan epic (pre-5th century). The protagonist of the epic is kaNNaki, a female. She is praised by a priestess who worships koRRavai, the female deity. In her possessed state, the priestess says of kaNNaki, ten2 tamizp pAvai ceyta tavak kozuntu (cilappatikAram 12.48) She is the sprout/young one ("kozuntu") born as a result of the penance/religious austerities ("tavam") done ("ceyta") by damsel (pAvai) Tamil (tamiz) of the south (ten2). The word for "mother" does not explicitly occur here. But the motherly role is indicated by the use of the word "kozuntu" along with "pAvai". According to Tamil Lexicon, kozuntu means tender twig, tendril, tender leaf, shoot, sprout, anything young, scion, etc. pAvai means puppet, doll, image, woman, lady, damsel, etc. Austerities are performed by the parents, family, clan, or country for the birth of a child. When a single person is indicated as doing penance for the birth of a child, it is either the father or the mother. The use of pAvai along with kozuntu means that Tamil personified as mother undertook austerities and obtained kaNNaki as child. Consider the following. ellAm In2Ravan2 tan2n2ai In2ap perun tavam ceyta nagkai, .. (kambarAmAyaNam. 2.5.62.1-2) Here kousalyA is described as the woman who performed austerities to give birth to Rama who created everything. Note the following from tiruviLaiyATaRpurANam ten2n2avan2 kulEcan2 ceyta tavam urut tirintAl en2n2a tigkaL milaintavan2 aruLin2 vantAn2 ari maruttan2an2 Am ten2n2an2 arik kuruLai an2n2An2 (56.36.4- 56.37.4) "As if the penance undertook by the Pandyan king kulEcan2 took shape, because of the grace of the one who wears the moon, was born the lion cub-like Pandyan arimaruttan2an." en2Ru mun2i viLampak kETTu irunta kAJcan2a mAlai tun2Ru tiraik kaTal ATat tuNivuTaiya viruppin2aL Ayt tan2 tirumA makaTku uraittAL ciRitu uLLam taLarvu eytic cen2Ru iRaivaRku uraippal en2ac ceziyar tavak kozuntu an2aiyAL ( 9.10) The above poem shows the use of tavak kozuntu to refer to goddess mIn2AkSi as the daughter of kAJcan2amAlai. So, the commentator aTiyArkkunallAr (12-13th century C.E.) is not correct in interpreting the line to refer to kaNNaki herself having performed penance in her past life. Regards S. Palaniappan From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Thu Sep 9 01:15:00 1999 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 18:15:00 -0700 Subject: The mother of all debates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052091.23782.11319386935157244209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sure that most people on this list will agree that the question of the origins of the Vedic civilization, the issues surrounding the Aryan homeland, and the geographical/linguistic birthplace of Sanskrit are some of the most important unanswered questions in Indology. All the scholars on this list that are participating in this debate are doing a great service to Indology. And however frustrating and heated that debate might seem, surely it is a debate that needs to be debated, not to be supressed. I then fail to understand why Dr. Elst, Vishal Agarwal, and the other "indegenists" are being treated as rebels, untouchables and treated with suspicion. Every rebutal mail I read attempts to cast some shadow on their motives, identity, education, morals, and yes, even suggests violent intents! It is precisely due to the presence of many of these people that much of the "original" AIT has been shown to be incorrect, as even AIT proponents will admit. Then why this attempt to silence the kinds of voices that have exposed lies in the past ? Would the scholars on this list rather have Dr. Koenrad Elst et al unsubscribe from this list, and "leave them alone" ? The words on this list certainly seem to belie such desires. Are we a group that ridicules those who differ, instead of using their energy and their contributions ? Let me make clear that I am not affiliated to Dr. Elst or any other "indegenist" in any way. Just an average computer engineer struggling to build the software and the Internet to enable great debates such as these to be possible. In my individual capacity, I want to appeal to all members on this great list to offer Dr. Elst courtesy at the very least, and a wide latitude ideally to express himself and not get him constantly mired in accusations and cross-accusations. I hope that my humble words will serve to further the cause of open debate, and lessen the personal verbiage that seems to seek to supress this, the "mother of all debates" on Indology. ~sumedh From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Thu Sep 9 01:32:40 1999 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 18:32:40 -0700 Subject: History, Facts, and Indology Message-ID: <161227052093.23782.16732920443312435419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The recent messages on the subject of AIT have run so far afield that I find that even I, a historian and lawyer by training and profession, may have something useful to contribute. I say "may" because it is not at all clear that the List welcomes historians or attorneys. The "scope" definition of the List includes "historians, and others interested in any aspect of Indological studies" in its ambit, but largely cancels this out by proscribing "discussions about Indian history and culture." First, even were it preferred that the List be purely about language, it could not help but be about Indian history and culture also. What meaning do the words of the Rg Veda have except in terms of Indian history and culture? How can a linguist discern the meaning of ancient words without an understanding and appreciation of history and culture? The AIT theories (including both the inward and outward migrationist views) are legitimate grist for this forum; how can one hope to interpret the RV accurately without some grasp of what actually occurred historically? Second, many of the scholars posting here recently could use some cross-field training in the principles of evidence and proof of facts. The degree of certitude exhibited seems inversely proportional to the quality of the evidence offered in proof. There is a legal maxim that one should never describe anything as "clear" or "clearly proven," for it will instantly alert the judge to a weak point in one's case: one has need of such persuasive language only when the evidence for that point is weak. Since AIT (I refer to both the inward and outward versions each time) is not yet susceptible of hard proof, one way or the other, a little humility/reasonableness in the language employed in advocating one view or the other would be appropriate. The evidence will support hypotheses, theories, inferences, possibilities, even probabilities, perhaps, but not the doctrinaire certitude some have espoused. Third, scholars ought to be able to distinguish between the important and the trivial. Regrettably, much of the content of recent discussion has revolved around the trivial. Insults, misquotations, editor's errors of attribution, are debated as though this actually proved something important. Arguments that depend on the psychological effect of a rhetorical victory in a trivial matter are inherently suspect: it requires, at the least, some showing of why debating trivia is material to and productive of something important. The rule of relevance, in other words. Sorry, I don't see that those who have engaged in such debate have met that burden. Fourth, the date of the RV seems pretty important to me, for consequences, both linguistic and historical, flow from the dating. The date of the Buddha, internal points of linguistics, archeology, each may have something relevant to contribute. Yet, speaking as a historian and lawyer, some of the most accessible evidence is being regularly ignored: the story told by the RV itself. I concede that it is subject to the criticism that the RV is myth, not history, and edited and reedited myth, at that, but it remains the best, the only, document purporting to be from the period of the AIT (both, etc.). It, together with some other sources, tells a story in which Aryan groups, seeing the rich and defenseless North Indian plains and rivers, initially subjugate, expel, exterminate, and plunder the darker indigenous occupants. Later, after contacts over time measured perhaps in centuries, a detonate of sorts occurs, individually and politically, and, still later, religiously. They learn each other's languages, they intermarry, they form alliances, and eventually they adopt a religious compromise or consensus in which some indigenous gods (Siva, par excellence) are recognized and given major status, some indigenous and foreign gods are amalgamated and interpreted to be one and the same, and some indigenous elites are elevated to Aryan social status (notably, brahmanic status), which elites, as the price of co-option and peace, adopt the Aryan view that the lowest of the low, the dark-skinned "serfs" or "outcastes," remain deservedly at the bottom of the social and moral order. This story has been dismissed as irrelevant and fanciful by those who prefer their scholarship untainted by any contact with myth, but since it is the only extant voice of the past, its version of events (if accurately described), must be tested against other evidence. It seems to me that the out-of-India AIT proponents have not yet come to grips with their own history as described in one of the documentary sources they most revere, the Rg Veda. (It may be noted that the story it tells ends ultimately in a victory of the indigenous peoples, of sorts; they persisted and amalgamated the Aryan into their own structure; but at such a price to those who were left out of the bargain.) Fifth, two items of "hard" evidence exist which require explanation by those who doubt the indigenous contribution to the RV. (1) The Mohenjodaro seal that shows what can only be a Prajapati figure. It exists; the items and emblems are unique to Prajapati and Siva and cannot reasonably be dismissed as a curious coincidence; their antiquity at least predates the customary dates for the redacted Rig Veda; it implies the indigenous IVC had a religious view that was at least in this part very similar to later Hindu beliefs. If some of this shows up as part of the RV, which otherwise is thought to be an Aryan document, how did it get there? If it shows up only in later texts, where was it in the interim described by the RV? (2) The Saraswati river and the cities that existed along its banks. The RV celebrates this river; apparently "Aryan" segments treat it as the fairest, most preeminent of rivers. Geological evidence has established that the river did exist, but ceased to flow, probably in stages, over a period of centuries that predates the received date of the RV. But cities existed along it, as archeologists have documented, and the cities would have had no particular reason to exist there unless the river remained a source of water and commerce at that time; meager, perhaps, but nonetheless sufficient for small cities and towns. And cities can be dated, and the dates offered thus far by archeologists (very few, in a very few localities, and not generally along the Saraswati) yield dates older than the received RV date by many centuries, sometimes millennia. If the RV regards the river as real (as it appears to do), then the RV must have been formed, at least in part, during the period when water ran in the river. It seems to me that the RV likely is a collection of ancient sources, much like the Bible, some dating through oral history to dates far older than the redacted versions, and some dating to later periods. Do the linguists studying the texts perceive such an assemblage? If so, what efforts and success has been made in sorting it out? I return to lurking. David Salmon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Sep 8 17:10:16 1999 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 20:10:16 +0300 Subject: From Lars Martin Fosse Message-ID: <161227052066.23782.1284229799812314206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Lars Martin Fosse has asked me to forward this message, which was sent before he sent an "unsubscribe" request, but which was blocked by his unsubscribing. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt ************************ Dear members of the list, I am unsubscribing from Indology. Those of you who would like to get in contact with me, please use my personal email address. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no ************************ *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Sep 9 00:30:14 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 20:30:14 -0400 Subject: supposedly Re: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227052087.23782.10398972718870179114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have already posted too many messages to the list recently, and there are other responsibilities that demand my attention, and while I sympathize with Lars Martin Fosse's decision to drop out of the list, I feel compelled to say one more thing. K. Elst's exchanges with R. Zydenbos and M. Witzel and myself have at least shown the list K. Elst's rhetorical style in debate. The list can decide for itself what value to place on what he has said on this list, and on how he has said it. But I find his repeated protestations about being no member of any 'fan club whatsoever to be far more than merely disingenuous. These protestations strike me as being no less than blatant deception. I have visited Elst's web site, and have read his diatribe against Zydenbos, and have noticed his proud assertion of association with the likes of Rajaram and Frawley, and so forth, but what really caught my attention was his surprisingly sympathetic portrait of one N. Godse, assassin of M. Gandhi. Without coming right out and saying so, Elst seems to suggest that Gandhi had it coming to him, for having betrayed his previous 'principled' opposition to the creation of an independent Muslim state. Maybe I have misread Elst's subtle wordplay, which prior to this has never struck me as particularly subtle. Maybe. If so, I apologize in advance to him. But if Elst himself does not publically disavow this apparent sympathy with Godse, well, we will really know who he really is, and what he really stands for, won't we? Maybe Lars Martin was right. Maybe I should take seriously these veiled threats of violence against myself. What kind of people am I talking to on this list? I used to think that I was talking to scholars, about utterly harmless and unimportant things like ancient history and Vedic philology. I used to think that while the rest of the world fought its stupid wars we scholars could talk reasonably and non-violently about the past. Apparently I was wrong. Perhaps politics is inescapable. If so, I choose satyAgraha. George Thompson From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Sep 8 21:26:15 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 21:26:15 +0000 Subject: Total instruments of debate Message-ID: <161227052059.23782.8839381887356600818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > > In a message dated 9/8/99 4:45:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hart at POLBOX.COM > writes: > > > Lastly, a question that may interest also other members of the List: what > > was the traditional Indian equivalent of this kind of ultimate debate > > weapon(s)? > > > Mantras > GTSorry , George , that is not true even traditionally. Mantras are effective only if you belief in them to "call upon" the gods and pusue "rituals". They are for believers only. For indologists and academics of any place or country, there are no mantras, there are only verses or poetical/metrical texts for historical study or any other agenda. The age-old belief is clear, you can influence only a believer (fried or foe) beneficially or adversely. Even in philosophical arguments with like Jainaas , Baudhaas, etc., who have not accepted Vedas as prasthana, it is the philosophic premise that counts. It is only the "modern scientific outlook" that equates itself with "truth" and refuses to see itself as a methodological tool with limitations. Relativism, we all know, is not that old in Europe. Bharat Gupt From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Sep 8 21:36:13 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 22:36:13 +0100 Subject: Elst's river names Message-ID: <161227052101.23782.14276519174898912086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:01 +0200 9/6/99, Koenraad Elst wrote: >As for the Kubha, assuming the name is a loan: well, that river is in the >Afghan border zone, not in the IE heartland as conceived by the >India-as-homeland theory (Saraswati and upper Ganga basin). Not only the Kubhaa but others, even in the Sarasvati area, see following message. > Further northwest, deeper into Afghanistan, the expanding Aryans went >beyond the >border, hence the typically colonial phenomenon that Aryan settlers gave the >rivers names from back home in India: Harayu from Sarayu, Harahvaiti from >Saraswati. It has not been shown that speakers of the old IA language ("the Aryans" of Elst ) moved *out* of India (the "border" in prehistoric times???). In fact, the IA language would have dropped *all* Indian linguistic characteristics as soon as it crossed the Sulaiman/Kirthar Ranges: even its supposed decendants, the closely related and contemporaneous Old Iranian languages do not have them... In short, a ridiculous proposition. Quote me a case where an emigrant language did so (not American English, Afrikaans, Surinamese Hindi/Bhojpuri, etc. etc. Even the truly emigrant IA Gipsy languague of the Balkans still has, e.g., a present tense closely resembling Skt & Prakrit : 'to do' : karav, karas, karal... and not a Persian-, Armenian-like one, etc.) And, unfortunately, the very name Saras-vatii 'having (many) ponds/lakes' fits the Arachosian/Sistan situation with the various Hamum lakes much better than the Indian one in the eastern Panjab (especially when you insist on a Sar. flowing 'from the mountains to the ocean'...) It is much more likely that the Indian Sarasvatii ( > mod. Sarsuti) was named after the Arachosian *sarasvatii > Avestan Haraxvaitii/ O. Persian hara(h)uvati (i.e. especially at the post-Indus stage when it was seriously drying up, yielding desert deltas & lakes just like the Sistan Hamums). The same transfer of IA river names of Afghanistan into South Asia can be seen in the *Sarayu ( > Avestan HarOiium (accc.) /O.Persian Haraiva , mod. Hare/Herat river ) --> U.P. Sarju, Gomatii ( > modern Afgh. Gomal) --> U.P. Gumti, and the various other Indian Sarasvatis ... Cf. also Avest. Viitanguhaitii = Ved. *vitas-vatii) and Ved. Vitas-taa (Jhelum), *rasaa ( > Avest. Ranghaa, N.Iranian/Scythian Rahaa as in Greek Rha~ 'Volga'). The same applies, in all probability to IA *sindhu ( > Iran. Hindu) ---> Vedic Sindhu "Indus". The problem here is of one of the local N.Pak. substrate (Bur. sende etc.) and appearances of Sindes etc. from the N. Caucasus to the Tedzhen (Merw River). So, maybe a popular etymology (sindu as Thieme's 'border river') grafted on an older, local form such as *sende ... ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Sep 8 21:38:22 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 22:38:22 +0100 Subject: Talageri quote In-Reply-To: <01bef9b2$be76bc60$da02703e@deze-computer> Message-ID: <161227052096.23782.3565634884974303636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 6:29 +0200 9/8/99, Koenraad Elst wrote: >I have not misquoted you, nor have I misquoted Prof. Erdosy. No, you have *paraphrased* what we both said, but in such as way as factually to misrepresent what we said. Members are advised to re-read the passages themselves! I cannot speak for Erdosy, but again, his denunciation of the "lunatic fringe " (not my words) referred to "long chronology" etc. not (and certainly not specifically) to Talageri. Do we have to discuss interpretation of *English* sentences now? I will keep repeating these points as long as you persist in misrepresenting me or others. Again, members beware! > Also, I don't >mind if you interpret the middle letter in "AIT" as "immigration" rather >than "invasion": the distinction is unimportant relative to the basic >implication of both, viz. a foreign origin. But in your *email* you always mention "invasion" -- which is precisely why I criticize you for misquoting. How to characterize such as procedure which is especially en vogue by politicians of all stripes ? "foreign origin" (your words) mean many things. Computers were 'foreign' to, say New Zealand, before they were first imported, so what?? Horses & chariots came to South Asia, Greece, Egypt, etc. from the outside, so what? Let the zoologists & archaeologists tell us when and how. Then, we may use their information. Indo-Aryan language was 'foreign' to the Panjab, on a variety of reasons which could be discussed to raise the level of this discussion a bit (innovations as compared to the often more archaic Old Iranian, innov. in plant and animal names as is typical of speakers of immigrant languages - just as in North America -, adaptations of the local substrate etc., etc.). So what? Languages & cultures have been imported throughout human history. You should be aware of the fact that own country shows 2 examples in the 'recent' past, that is some 2000 years ago. Does that make you less Belgian (or Flemish)? So why the excitement about importation of such items into South Asia? It is, to be mild, silly to deny 'foreign' origin of certain (or even a lot of) items of material or spiritual culture since no civilization has developed in total isolation, not even 'isolated' islands such as Hawaii (even before capt. Cook) . To insist on *complete* autochthony is close to Erdosy's 'lunatic fringe' indeed. People and their cultures have been on the move ever since the early descendants of mitochondrial Eve stepped out of Africa, c. 100 ky ago. So why to exclude S. Asia or Bharatavarsa? Not even the Himalayas were impenetrable... ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Sep 8 21:39:31 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 22:39:31 +0100 Subject: Non-IE loans In-Reply-To: <01bef891$db630a80$be03703e@deze-computer> Message-ID: <161227052099.23782.1203682213618008737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:01 +0200 9/6/99, Koenraad Elst wrote: > that there are "hundreds" of loans in the RV. >That is how many Kuiper lists (Aryans in the RV), but he exaggerates, Kuiper intentionally included all words he regarded as *possible* candidates for nonIE, non-IA etymologies but he is always open to revision when IE etymology can be demonstrated. Apparently the principles of producing proper IE (Drav., Munda etc.) etymologies are not well known (for a check list see K. Hoffmann, Aufsatze zur Indoiranistik, vol.3, Wiesbaden 1991), as can be seen from the following sentence: >including terms with known IE etymologies (though such may of course have >been borrowed by PIE: anything borrowed before the fragmentation of PIE, >hence pan-IE, is not recognizable as ultimately non-IE). this is *not* correct : e.g., IE *pelek'u- (Greek peleku-, Ved. parazu-) would be good PIE according to Elst, but the word structure betrays it as an early IE *loan* from an unknown language (not Sumerian, it seems, as the word in question means 'spindle' not 'ax' (see Mayerhofer's etym. dict. for details). As soon as linguistic arguments are introduced into the "Aryan" (= Indo-Aryan) debate, we see this kind of naivite' or misinformation... > I don't recollect any >of them being specifically an astronomical term. Nor a specifically >religious or metaphysical term. Already in 1955, Kuiper has pointed out a number of religious terms (Fs. Kirfel, Bonn 1955), (reprinted in IJDL, v.21, no.2,) such as: zambara, pizaci, kimiidin, nicumpuNa, puNya, mangala, the religious connnections of the trees udumbara, azvattha, pippala, the kumbha myths, the EmuSa myth (also in a separate paper, 1950) and the possible Drav. connection of the sage/star Agastya/Agatti (astronomy only: ulkaa 'meteor') much of this repeated/summarized in his 1991 book Aryans in the RV. So why this misinformation? >Kuiper's list looks more like the >vocabulary exchanged in the process of economic interaction That is the point: interaction is on the level of VILLAGE life, not of big traders and great cities... which does not bode well for an overlap of speakers of Vedic with the Indus civilization... Rather, this fits interaction of IA with local language(s ) *after* the relapse of the Indus civ.... (why not before? -- see in older /other msgs) ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Thu Sep 9 04:34:21 1999 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 23:34:21 -0500 Subject: The mother of all debates Message-ID: <161227052105.23782.2617571992990154299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > All the scholars on this list that are participating in this debate > are doing a great service to Indology. And however frustrating and > heated that debate might seem, surely it is a debate that needs to be > debated, not to be supressed. > The issue is not that different opinions or interpretations are being expressed, but that many people are being just plain rude and unprofessional in doing so. This is not really useful in furthering knowledge. In fact, it probably discourages many of those who would otherwise learn or contribute to real knowledge. It would be helpful to everyone, scholars and novices alike, if participants could accurately quote their references, especially on emotionally charged issues such as this. Only then can others have a firm foundation for legitimate contributions and beliefs. Claude Setzer From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Wed Sep 8 19:31:24 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 01:01:24 +0530 Subject: Mian Abbas und Padre Zyndenbos In-Reply-To: <199909072258.EAA27395@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227052074.23782.10275463328918129332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:02:47 PDT, Namrata Bose wrote: > I also agree with Padre Zynedbos [...] Namaste Boes Mataji, Here's a challenge to you: to prove that I am, or in the past ever have been, a Christian. As far as now, this has never been the case. So your attempt at communalising the discussion doesn't stick. Sorry. I am disappointed about you. RZ From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Wed Sep 8 19:31:24 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 01:01:24 +0530 Subject: supposedly Re: Aryan invasion debate In-Reply-To: <199909080402.JAA00903@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227052076.23782.13105302021443893139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (Thanks to those who read my previous mailings in spite of the odd formatting commands in them, apparently caused by a voltage fluctuation that upset my mailing software.) On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 06:03:14 +0200, Koenraad Elst wrote: > Dr. Zydenbos, your pedantic ironies cannot obscure the fact > that you did bring in no less than three references to Hitler in > your short article [...] Dr. Elst, This is getting better and better. So your first ploy misfired, and now you're trying a new one. I asked who could prove that I compared Rajaram to Hitler (making it still easier: or the F?hrer, or the leader of the NSDAP), and nobody provides me with proof. There cannot be any, of course. Now we get this. Here's another challenge: show me where, in that article (which is online, for eveyone to see), I wrote "Hitler" (or "the F?hrer", or "the leader of the NSDAP"). Come on, show us. Don't hesitate. (Remember, people, it's all there: Rajaram and myself, at: http://www.angelfire.com/in/zydenbos/laermendepolemik.html ) I'll make it easier for you with another question: is every reference to the BJP a reference to Vajpayee? Or: is every reference to communists a reference to Marx or Mao? Think carefully, Dr. Elst, and then look at your accusation again. (By the way, I asked you a similar question last time. You still haven't learnt.) You have not yet answered my question: [Elst: ] <> (p. 9) [Zydenbos:] <> Be brave, and don't dodge the issue. These questions are really very simple. Just like my question whether November 1993 precedes December 1992. (Have you thought about that one?) As for "smearing" (yes, Artur Karp's question is quite pertinent): I see Rajaram shamelessly writing a plain lie about me, and I see Dr. Elst on this list actually defending Rajaram (while he evades answering questions about his own demonstrated foolishness). And you wrote: > Hitler was an AIT believer like yourself. My reply to this is double: 1. This is doubly irrelevant: (a) Let us assume that Hitler believed that: does it matter? (Hitler ate sandwiches. Does that mean we should not?); (b) I am not an Aryan Invasion Theory defender. Show me where I have stated that I support the idea of 'invasion'. (And please follow Prof. Witzel's suggestion and get up to date.) 2. In your own view (expressed at the beginning of your message) what you are doing here is "smearing". Question: does the remark of one stray student at JNU prove that the notion of Aryan migration, when held by researchers in 1999, is politically motivated or wrong? As for "pedantic ironies": I much prefer ironies to lies, falsehoods and demagogic equivocations, thank you. Do you think we can look forward to straight answers from you to my questions, one of these days? Or will you continue equivocating and smearing? If you can answer the simple questions, I may bring up a more complicated one, e.g., about your obscurantist racialist views (do you remember your "importance of being white"?) But I don't want to tax you with so much all at once, since the simple questions apparently are already rather difficult for you. RZ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Sep 9 05:31:49 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 01:31:49 -0400 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227052107.23782.1370292659570070068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The portrayal of Tamil as a female by ilaGkO, the Jain author of cilappatikAram, was not an isolated occurrence. Note the following from the zaivite tirukkayilAya JAn2a ulA by cEramAn2 perumAL of 7-8th century CE. tIm tamizin2 teyva vaTivAL (112.1) Here a 14-19 year old girl is praised as "the divine feminine form of sweet Tamil". Then consider the following from yApparuGkalakkArikai by the Jain amitacAkarar of 10th century CE. kAn2Ar malayattu arum tavan2 con2n2a kan2n2it tamiz nUl (yAp. 2.2) "The text in maiden Tamil which was taught by the sage of the forest-filled malaya mountain". This work on prosody was a required text of study by all Tamil scholars. So the concept of Tamil as a female must have become accepted among the tamil scholars. Consider the following from periyapurANam of 12th century CE. kan2n2it tamiz nATTut tirumA maturai (per. 3828.3) Madurai in the land of maiden Tamil periyapurANam also calls Tamil divine as given below. teyvat tamizum...(per. 970.4) Also note the following from tiruviLaiyATaRpurANam (1450/1500-1625 CE) kan2n2it taN tamizc col (2.58.3-4) "words of maiden cool Tamil " ten2 col maTa makaL (2.56.3-4) "the southern language (Tamil), the beautiful woman" Not only was the language personified as female. The Tamil land was also personified as female as shown below. tamiz nATu Am kan2n2i (2.33.1) Thus the tradition of personifying Tamil as female, goddess, maiden, and mother goes back continuously at least 1500 years. In fact, I would say that it should be as old as the time when Tamils saw themselves as a people bound by a common language in a geographically identifiable area. Kamil Zvelebil says that cilappatikAram was "the first consciously national work of Tamil literature, the literary evidence of the fact that the Tamils had by that time attained nationhood" (The Smile of Murugan, p. 172). But , even though we do not find a clear example in CT as in cilappatikAram, the personification of Tamil as female must have probably occurred earlier since the word "tamizakam" meaning "the land of the Tamils" occurs in puRanAn2URu 168.18. Why? One can infer that from the Tamil concept of "people" as shown by the semantics of the word "makkaL" (DEDR 4616) which means people as well as children. So tamizmakkaL means Tamil people or children of Tamil. Ramaswamy has missed this completely. Regards S. Palaniappan From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Sep 9 02:11:34 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 02:11:34 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Closing remarks to Dr. Vassilkov (& Mr. Agarwal) (II) Message-ID: <161227052103.23782.10716382187033022139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Much of the indigenist critique - as far as I can see - claims precisely that > the "invasion" theory is politically motivated. I would therefore like to point > out that both the Aryans and their geographical displacements have been > conspicuously absent from public debates in the West since the end of the > second world war. Because the West does not need to reiterate it anymore. It has been "accepted" and is part of text -books (even in India) it need not be repeated. As you admit," Western politicians do not need the Aryans and their origins to justify anything." But that does not make the "accepted", any less political. > It is not my impression that the history of Greece is regarded as unoriginal...the West owes the foundations of its intellectual > culture to the combined efforts of Greeks, Romans and Hebrews. It is the "post Aryan invasion" culture of Greece and not its Egyptian and Minoan content that has been regarded by the West as the most valuable. My remarks about making Greeks "unorignal" were made about the supposed victory of the patriarchal Aryan gods of Greece over the indigenous matriarchal goddesses. The Aryan as the conqueror has been the underlying theme in the writing of Greek history as well of India. The premium on the Apollonian (Aryan) element of Greek culture was so well highlighted by Nietzsche. Was its use by Hitler anything else than political? It is strange that after a blatant and horrible use of Aryanism by the West, it can now be pretended that while "the political motives of indigenists are for everyone to see" as they are trying to contain Aryan-Dravidian conflict in India, the Western proponents of a Caucasian home ( supposedly reconfirmed by South Russian excavations) for Aryans are only stating the facts. > However, the movements of the Indo-Iranians > and Indo-Aryans must be fitted into the general picture of Indo-European > dispersal, and so far the indigenists have not been able to do this. The > reason why western scholars tend to hang on to the Eurasian origin of the I-E > is that the probability mass - all things considered - rests in favour of such > a solution. How is the dispersal from supposed Caucasian homeland any more credible than from India? The only veritable reason for the existence of a Indo-European culture so far is linguistic and certain religious, aestheic and cultural beliefs, the spread of which need not be only through invasion or migration from North to South but the opposite also. To insist that OIT is politics is politics no less. Bharat Gupt. From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Wed Sep 8 21:46:19 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 03:16:19 +0530 Subject: Total instruments of debate In-Reply-To: <199909081441.UAA05402@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227052081.23782.5973091195957479863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:41:55 +0200, Koenraad Elst wrote: > Associating Prof. Rajaram with Nazi blood-and-soil theories (as > Dr. Zydenbos claims not to have done, Please, please read before you accuse. Otherwise, this discussion will not, cannot go anywhere (I am assuming, perhaps naively, that you want this to be a real discussion with a reasonably defensible outcome). I have denied (a) that I compared Rajaram with Hitler, (b) that I have referred to Hitler three times in my 1993 article. These were your two recent claims on this list, which you have failed to substantiate. Yes, as Prof. Witzel wrote about Dr. Elst: > By now, we have to become very suspicious about ANY "quote" made > by him! RZ From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Sep 9 13:08:13 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 06:08:13 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage (was Aryan invasion debate) Message-ID: <161227052089.23782.12468444762445919192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "C.R. Selvakumar" wrote: > > nanda chandran wrote: > > *If you can point out a *substantial* literary corpus which shows no Arya > *connections and points to an original individual identity of > *the Tamizh people, it would be more useful for the discussion. > > What are you trying to say ? Tamils don't have any original > identity and no original literature ? I have to agree. Just because there is "Arya" influence doesn't mean there is no original literature or identity. That would be like saying there is no 'original' Indian identity because modern Indian culture has Muslim and Western influences, or no original English literature because of Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian influence. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 9 16:12:55 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 09:12:55 -0700 Subject: ADMIN: End of AIT debate Message-ID: <161227052122.23782.850994883420151075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, Greetings. Now that AIT debates involving much polemics are banned by the Indology list Founder, I request you to reconsider your decision to unsubscribe. Pl. employ the DELETE key when necessary as per Deshpande's suggestion. Once in a while, your pointing to IE data have always been helpful in dating IA in India. Regards, N. Ganesan ---------------------------------------------------------------- I have been petitioned by several INDOLOGY members to draw the current heated AIT debate to a close. This seems a reasonable thing to do, since most people interested in debating this subject have now had a chance to express their opinions fairly fully. It is not my impression that startling new evidence is about to be revealed, or that minds are about to be changed by a few more postings. INDOLOGY has had AIT debates before, so if you wish to think further about the issue, you can consult the INDOLOGY archives (searchable by keyword) for more materials. There are apparently at least two major forthcoming books on the topic that serious scholars will want to read and digest before expressing themselves further on the subject. Participants are free, of course, to continue the debate off-list. It would even be an idea for someone to start a formal list specifically for this topic. It seems to me that the AIT debate does not always bring out the best in some of the participants. The French academy once banned discussions on the topic of The Origin of Language because the arguments were getting out of hand. We shall follow that precedent. For the above reasons, I have decided that it is not necessary for the INDOLOGY list to host any more discussions on this topic for the forseeable future. I will shortly emend the INDOLOGY web pages to include this policy. As of Friday, anybody who continues with this topic will be liable to have their subscription to the INDOLOGY list cancelled by me. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Thu Sep 9 07:18:00 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 09:18:00 +0200 Subject: Non-IE loans Message-ID: <161227052109.23782.7148432902900824397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel, If you want to keep yes-no-ing, go ahead, but I will repeat it only once: I did not misquote you. Let interested readers turn to the passages themselves and see for themselves that both your and Erdosy's statements pertain to a school of thought to which Talageri belongs (as is well-known and as you yourselves have confirmed by mentioning him in that context). But I admit you did not denounce Talageri alone. However, denouncing the whole school rather than one individual is not necessarily an improvement (compare: "Robert Maxwell was a swindler" with "Jews are swindlers"). You impute motives when you say off-hand that I get "excited" about possible "foreign" origins of language and culture in Panjab. That I have nothing against foreign origins is shown precisely by my rejection of the AIT: Euro-nationalists decry me as "sell-out to the political corrrectness brigade" and such things for "subordinating" white Europeans to brown Asians which my sympathy for the out-of-India theory of IE. And my position does not follow from "excitement". I used to be an AIT believer like yourself, until the evidence made me look at the alternatives. That early Dravid-IA exchanges indicate village life does indeed argue against the identification of Vedic with Harappan, but not of Vedic and pre-Harappan, which is the most common position among AIT skeptics. More on the linguistic aspects in more peaceful times. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Thu Sep 9 07:18:08 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 09:18:08 +0200 Subject: Total instruments of debate Message-ID: <161227052111.23782.13452231323215317188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> So, Dr. Zydenbos, a reference to Nazism is not a reference to Hitler? Well, that is what I call pedantic. Especially in the business of smearing, the two terms have exactly the same effect. And in the case under consideration, they are equally untrue. My "obscurantist racialist views"? Ah, yes, you provide the proof straight from my website: the para title "the importance of being white". The combination of this phrase with your description of it as racialist will give the unsuspecting reader the impression that the phase is racialist. In reality, I have of course not made any racist statement in the so-titled para (third parties may verify my website article). The phrase is a description of a psychological state of affairs in India which explains much of the influence still held by the AIT in India, viz. the prestige of Western scholarship. You yourself falsely accused Prof. SR Rao of racism for having said to a student that he shouldn't believe what white people say. That advice of Rao's was precisely in reaction to the racial prejudice which imputes automatic superiority in sobre scientific thinking to whites, a prejudice which many Indians interiorized in colonial days and which still lingers somewhat. It was basically an anti-racist statement which your contrived interpretation has turned into a racist one. I am appalled at the manipulative tricks in your attacks on me. I had already pointed out that Western AIT defenders with academic titles suggesting sobriety and detachment are just as prone to use intemperate language and loosely impute motives as their Indian "pamplettist" opponents, a fact which has recently been verified on this very list. Though I get annoyed at the bad debating manners of some of my Indian friends, I have never seen them stoop to your level, Dr. Zydenbos. I will not reply to your mails anymore. And I'm sure most list members would like to see this exchange stop. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU Thu Sep 9 14:28:46 1999 From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 09:28:46 -0500 Subject: The mother of all debates Message-ID: <161227052113.23782.1072129303576822098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I sympathize with your concerns, and I hope you will sympathize similarly with my concerns about the nasty turn which some of the debate has taken recently, especially from some of the "indigenists". What is important to note is that much of the "indigenist" argumentation addresses antiquated western models concerning the AIT question and that western and Indian scholars who still find the AI theory better established do not do so for racist, nationalist, or imperialist motives. As one of the recent members of the debate correctly pointed out, western scholars have nothing to lose or to gain politically by adopting any of the rival theories, since for better or worse, most ordinary western people, including the politicians, don't give a hoot. The concern of these scholars, therefore, is not whether their findings support or damage particular political ideologies, but rather a search for the admittedly quite elusive truth. To set the record straight as far as I am concerned, and I'm sure many of my colleagues as well: 19th- and early 20th-century Indology is full of racist and imperialist assumptions that reflect the spirit of its time and which is painfully embarrassing to most of us. Current approaches to the AIT controversy, in most cases, do not subscribe to these assumptions. It is therefore not particularly helpful when AIT opponents attempt to discredit current AIT proponents by associating them, directly or indirectly, with these earlier and now thoroughly discredited assumptions. I concede that it is similarly unhelpful when AIT proponents associate their opponents with the militant, communalist elements in the Sangh Parivar. A number of recent participants in the debate, including Zydenbos and Elst, have correctly pointed out that, to use my own words, even racists and communalists may have important contributions to make to scholarship, however much we may disagree with their political views. In scholarship it doesn't matter that Hitler may have been pro-AIT and that communalists may be anti-AIT. What should matter is the evidence -- which unfortunately tends to be much less clear and unambiguous than we would like it to be -- and the strength of the arguments based on that evidence. I would very much hope that those participating in the discussion on this list will find it possible in their hearts to focus on this scholarly side of the debate and to cease from innuendo, slander, and downright nastiness. If we can do this, I would hope that Fosse will return to the list; if we can't, I'm afraid many others will follow his example. Satyam eva jayatAm, Hans Henrich Hock >I am sure that most people on this list will agree that the question >of the origins of the Vedic civilization, the issues surrounding the >Aryan homeland, and the geographical/linguistic birthplace of Sanskrit >are some of the most important unanswered questions in Indology. > >All the scholars on this list that are participating in this debate >are doing a great service to Indology. And however frustrating and >heated that debate might seem, surely it is a debate that needs to be >debated, not to be supressed. > >I then fail to understand why Dr. Elst, Vishal Agarwal, and the other >"indegenists" are being treated as rebels, untouchables and treated >with suspicion. Every rebutal mail I read attempts to cast some shadow >on their motives, identity, education, morals, and yes, even suggests >violent intents! > >It is precisely due to the presence of many of these people that much >of the "original" AIT has been shown to be incorrect, as even AIT >proponents will admit. Then why this attempt to silence the kinds of >voices that have exposed lies in the past ? Would the scholars on this >list rather have Dr. Koenrad Elst et al unsubscribe from this list, >and "leave them alone" ? The words on this list certainly seem to >belie such desires. Are we a group that ridicules those who differ, >instead of using their energy and their contributions ? > >Let me make clear that I am not affiliated to Dr. Elst or any other >"indegenist" in any way. Just an average computer engineer struggling >to build the software and the Internet to enable great debates such as >these to be possible. In my individual capacity, I want to appeal to >all members on this great list to offer Dr. Elst courtesy at the very >least, and a wide latitude ideally to express himself and not get him >constantly mired in accusations and cross-accusations. > >I hope that my humble words will serve to further the cause of open >debate, and lessen the personal verbiage that seems to seek to supress >this, the "mother of all debates" on Indology. > >~sumedh Hans Henrich Hock Professor of Linguistics and Sanskrit Linguistics, 4088 FLB MC-168, University of Illinois 707 S. Mathews, Urbana IL 61801-3652 telephone: (217) 333-0357 or 333-3563 (messages) e-mail: hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu fax: (217) 333-3466 From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU Thu Sep 9 15:26:17 1999 From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 10:26:17 -0500 Subject: Proto-Bangani Message-ID: <161227052118.23782.3732178289509747056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What's this business about the "great Prof. Hock"? Let's drop these cutisms, please. I have stated something on Bangani, quite some time ago and on another list (24 Feb 1997 17:04:19 -0600, on the old Indo-European list). Below is the entire quote. Please bear in mind the concluding paragraph in which I suggest that more evidence is needed before we can be sure of the presence of a kentum layer in Bangani. (The reason for my caution lies in the fact that, as the recent controversies over Greenberg's comparative methodology have underlined, there are is the very difficult issue of chance similarities; to make sure that given similarities in vocabulary are not due to chance etc., we generally need relatively massive evidence. The problem of course is, "How massive is massive?" And that is an issue over which scholars can legitimately disagree.) You may find my assumption of outside origin of the kentum words questionable; but that's another issue which must be addressed in a much more comprehensive fashion. At this point, I believe that the evidence so far presented for a kentum layer in Bangani is suggestive, but not conclusive. To use the evidence of Bangani as the foundation for or against AIT is therefore as problematic as using the evidence of putatively non-IE elements in the Rig-Vedic vocabulary for or against AIT or for or against a Dravidian subversion theory, for that matter. With best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock ("You can't prove that the platypus doesn't lay eggs by showing a picture of a platypus not laying eggs", attributed to Paul Postal) *************************************************************** To anyone concerned with the question of Bangani, The issue of Bangani has recently been revived through discussion on the Vyakaran list (as well as elsewhere). The following observations were sent earlier to the Vyakaran (S. Asia) list and may be of some interest to subscribers to the Indoeuropean list, too. ***On Bangani*** The controversy over Bangani and the authenticity of its apparent evidence for a centum language in northern South Asia does not seem to be coming to an end. In the opinion of some scholars, the claims by Dr. George van Driem and Dr. Suhnu Ram Sharma that their own fieldwork shows Dr. Claus-Peter Zoller's centum forms in Bangani to be spurious has in effect laid the claim -- and the controversy -- to rest. Recent fieldwork by Professor Anvita Abbi (Linguistics and English, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi) supports Zoller's evidence and in so doing casts doubt on the fieldwork and/or claims of van Driem and Sharma. As a consequence, Zoller's evidence must be taken seriously and its implications for Indo-European comparative linguistics and for South Asian linguistic prehistory must be carefully considered. As is well known, in the course of fieldwork on Bangani, a language of northern South Asia, Zoller unearthed lexical items that appear to show centum developments of PIE palatalo-velars, instead of the satem outcomes expected in an Indo-Aryan language. At the same time, the language also contains lexical layers that are clearly Indo-Aryan and therefore satem; some of these result from recent influence of languages such as Hindi, others exhibit features typical of the northern languages belonging to the Indo-Aryan/Indo-Iranian family. Among the forms with centum features are various words derivable from PIE *GenH-, such as OgnOM 'unborn' and gOnNO 'give birth', as well as kOtrO 'fight' (cf. Skt. Zatru-, Gaul. catu- 'battle') and dOkru 'tear' (*(d)aKru). [O = open _o_; G(h), M = nasalization, N = retroflex nasal, z = s with hacek, Z = palatal voiceless sibilant, S = retroflex voiceless sibilant, K = PIE palatalo-velars, uu = long [u:], I = Slav. front jer.] While some of the forms are marked as doubtful, either by Zoller or by Abbi, and some other forms involve etymologies from Pokorny that many Indo-Europeanists would consider uncertain, there remains an impressive residue. What is especially interesting is that dOkru 'tear', with its initial d-, suggests affiliation with a western Indo-European language (cf. Gk. dakru, Lat. dacruma > lacrima, Germ. Zaehre, Engl. tear), while more eastern members show forms without d-: Skt. aZru, Av. asru, Lith. azara, Toch. B akruuna. More western affiliation is also suggested by lOktO 'milk' and gOsti 'guest (of honor)', which have good correspondences in Gk. galakt-, Lat. lact- and Lat. hostis, Gmc. *gasti-, OCS gostI, but not in more eastern Indo-European languages. Note that these forms do not necessarily contain original palatalo-velars (the fact that OCS has _gostI_ may be attributable to the transition-area status of Slavic and Baltic between satem and western centum languages); but they are nevertheless important, since they suggest western IE (rather, than, say Tocharian or even Indo-Iranian) origin. Van Driem and Sharma claim that their fieldwork suggests that Zoller's forms are spurious, that some are based on misidentification and others are simply non-existent. In a recent summary of arguments pro and con, Dr. Kevin Tuitte further suggests that Zoller may have fallen victim to fieldwork consultants' tendency to provide evidence that they think may please the investigator. Even a priori, however, the latter suggestion is dubious, since it would be hard to imagine how illiterate villagers would be able to know that words like _dOkrO, lOktO, gOsti_ would please an investigator (to have that knowledge would require more than a superficial understanding of comparative Indo-European linguistics). In January 1997 I had the opportunity to meet with Abbi and to go over some of her Bangani notes from fieldwork that she recently conducted in situ. She will provide a fuller report on her work in due course, but has asked me to provide a preliminary report, so as to set the record straight. While van Driem and Sharma appear not to have actually entered Bangani-speaking territory but limited themselves to interviewing Bangani speakers on the fringes of the territory, Abbi went into the territory and interviewed, among others, at least one monolingual speaker of Bangani. According to her fieldwork, most of Zoller's forms are genuine. Her fieldwork also confirms that the lexicon of Bangani contains at least three layers: Words of the type _dOkrO, lOktO, gOsti_, words that exhibit "northern" Indo-Aryan features, and words that seem to be borrowed from more southern Indo-Aryan languages, such as Hindi. Given these circumstances, Bangani poses several challenges to linguistics. First, there is the question of what appears to be western centum influence. At this point, the evidence for this influence is highly suggestive; but a larger amount of words of the same type would certainly be helpful to allay worries that we might be dealing with chance similarities. (Zoller's data also contain a number of words in which RUKI apparently fails to apply. But RUKI-_S_ merges with dental _s_ (and with _Z_) in most of Indo-Aryan, and there are well-known problems with RUKI in Nuristani; as a consequence, words of this type do not provide unambiguous evidence -- unless we were dealing with words of the type _dOkrO, lOktO, gOsti_ which, qua words, seem to indicate western IE origin.) A related question is the nature of the western centum influence. Words like _gOsti_ seem to rule out Greek influence (and thus the possibility that we are dealing with linguistic echoes of Alexander's army); _lOktO_ would eliminate Germanic and Celtic; and _kOtrO_ would eliminate Greek and Latin. That is, no known western centum language could be the source for all of the relevant words. At the same time, the fact that *a and *o exhibit the same outcome (O, no doubt via *a, see below) suggests possible affiliation with the Balto-Slavo-Germanic group (or possibly with Antalolian?). The fact that *a and *o are reflected as O further suggests that, whatever the source of the words, they participated in the Bangani change of earlier *a to O and that therefore they must have entered (the ancestor of modern) Bangani prior to that change. But that change may be a very recent one. The question of what time these words entered Bangani therefore cannot be satisfactorily answered at this point. Moreover, it is not at all clear whether the words in question actually entered Bangani, or whether they are part of the original lexicon of the language, and the northern Indo-Aryan lexical layer is a later accretion, comparable to the clearly secondary layer of southern Indo-Aryan words. It is to be hoped that more extensive field work on Bangani will unearth evidence that will make it possible to answer some of these questions, or at least to make it possible to more clearly establish the nature of the different lexical layers of Bangani and their relationship to each other. Moreover, as noted earlier, the evidence for western IE influence or origin at this point is still rather limited; if more evidence could be found this would definitely strengthen the claim that Bangani contains a significant layer of centum vocabulary. >Prof. Hock, > >Thanks for your kind advice. I will do my best to abide by it. > >Now that I have the opportunity to address the great Prof. Hock (words of a >former student of yours, also a list member), one thing I've been wanting to >ask you for a while, concerns what is tentatively called proto-Bangani. >Though the data are controversial as well as very limited in quantity, you >might perhaps have developed an opinion (and if it is in writing, the >reference will do) on whether such a proto-Bangani Kentum language did >indeed exist, and whether it was indeed spoken in India while still a living >language? In particular, do you think it has any relevance to the Aryan >invasion debate? > >Yours sincerely, >Koenraad Elst >http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ Hans Henrich Hock Professor of Linguistics and Sanskrit Linguistics, 4088 FLB MC-168, University of Illinois 707 S. Mathews, Urbana IL 61801-3652 telephone: (217) 333-0357 or 333-3563 (messages) e-mail: hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu fax: (217) 333-3466 From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Thu Sep 9 19:38:04 1999 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 11:38:04 -0800 Subject: Possibly missed postings Message-ID: <161227052126.23782.11175879305389615583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Between 31 August and 8 September, I had problems in accessing my e-mail. It is possible that some of the responses to my queries posted on this list have not reached me. I will try to recover them from the Archieves. However, I would be grateful if the respondents could once again e-mail (privately) the information they tried to make available to me. I have been able to see Dr.Roland Steiner's message of 1 Sep 1999 on "Place and year of a remark by Kielhorn," for which I thank him heartily. I appreciate the time he spent on providing precise information through a relatively long post. -- ashok aklujkar From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Thu Sep 9 19:39:11 1999 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 11:39:11 -0800 Subject: Jaina-lak.sa.naavalii Message-ID: <161227052127.23782.3351302549374220746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been able to see only a few vols of the following dictionary in Hindi. From the ones I have seen it is obvious that the work has been published in the 1970's. Could someone inform me about the exact number of vols and the years in which they were published (by the way, I found the dictionary quite useful): Siddhantashastri, Balchandra. Jaina-laksanavali. (an Authentic Discriptive Dictionary of Jaina Philosophical Terms). Delhi: Vir Sewa Mandir. Vir Sewa Mandir Series Text 15. From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Thu Sep 9 14:44:49 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 16:44:49 +0200 Subject: Proto-Bangani Message-ID: <161227052115.23782.14381204520201817422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Hock, Thanks for your kind advice. I will do my best to abide by it. Now that I have the opportunity to address the great Prof. Hock (words of a former student of yours, also a list member), one thing I've been wanting to ask you for a while, concerns what is tentatively called proto-Bangani. Though the data are controversial as well as very limited in quantity, you might perhaps have developed an opinion (and if it is in writing, the reference will do) on whether such a proto-Bangani Kentum language did indeed exist, and whether it was indeed spoken in India while still a living language? In particular, do you think it has any relevance to the Aryan invasion debate? Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Sep 9 15:49:01 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 16:49:01 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: End of AIT debate In-Reply-To: <001701befa7c$9c189ce0$0ecc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227052120.23782.16668849526530314639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been petitioned by several INDOLOGY members to draw the current heated AIT debate to a close. This seems a reasonable thing to do, since most people interested in debating this subject have now had a chance to express their opinions fairly fully. It is not my impression that startling new evidence is about to be revealed, or that minds are about to be changed by a few more postings. INDOLOGY has had AIT debates before, so if you wish to think further about the issue, you can consult the INDOLOGY archives (searchable by keyword) for more materials. There are apparently at least two major forthcoming books on the topic that serious scholars will want to read and digest before expressing themselves further on the subject. Participants are free, of course, to continue the debate off-list. It would even be an idea for someone to start a formal list specifically for this topic. It seems to me that the AIT debate does not always bring out the best in some of the participants. The French academy once banned discussions on the topic of The Origin of Language because the arguments were getting out of hand. We shall follow that precedent. For the above reasons, I have decided that it is not necessary for the INDOLOGY list to host any more discussions on this topic for the forseeable future. I will shortly emend the INDOLOGY web pages to include this policy. As of Friday, anybody who continues with this topic will be liable to have their subscription to the INDOLOGY list cancelled by me. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Sep 9 17:30:15 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 18:30:15 +0100 Subject: Afro-Dravidian connection In-Reply-To: <01bef6ce$3f924900$6504703e@deze-computer> Message-ID: <161227052129.23782.16270699188859560148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:08 +0200 9/4/99, Koenraad Elst wrote: >3) The Afro-Dravidian connection: ... This is a particular nice piece of "evidence". Sergent has reported what the French, Bengali and Senegalese at Dakar profess to have found out: Its basis is the supposed relationship of Dravidian with West African languages such as Wolof and Ful as has been proposed and defended since the Fifties, cf. the resume in Sergent (1997: 52 sqq.) Quite differently, Ruhlen (1987: 260) simply states: "The Nilo-Saharan connection appears the most promising." These are two quite different proposals to begin with, as Ful and Wolof belong to the West-Atlantic branch of the large Niger-Kordofian (or 'Niger-Congo') family which includes all West African, Central African and the Bantus languages; Wolof etc. do *not* belong to the Nilo-Saharan family that stretches from Niger, via S. Libya, Chad, Sudan, and Kenya to Tanzania. The combination of Wolof and Dravidian uses a set of similarities between Peul/Ful and Wolof, and Dravidian, and with various other African languages, ranging from Somali (Cushitic branch of Afro-Asiatic) to Mande and Bantu, both belonging to two different major branches of Niger-Congo (=Niger-Cordofian). This amounts to comparing Dravidian to a slew of disparate data ranging from modern Albanian (IE) to modern Chechen (N.E. Caucasian). The old, pseudo-Voltaire adage that in etymologies "consonants count little, vowels nothing", is exemplified by these data; note, among the Wolof/Drav. consonant correspondences: -kk- = t; -tt- = t; -t = l, etc. and among the Wolof/Drav. vowels (first syll. only): aa = i, ee,aa; a= e, o, a, u i = ee; u= a, ee, etc. in addition, whole syllables disappear for no good reason (jaa : ceerai, fab : pebga/perukku, xol : karal), (but note the reverse: juurom : cem?!). It should be obvious that lautgesetze are not involved but accidental similarities. Based on such flimsy 'sound laws', naively accepted by Sergent, the proposed correspondences in grammar must be taken still less seriously. How do we know that a Wolof k in -ku- represents Drav. k in -ku- and not a -t- (cf. fukk, kit, x)? No method... At 14:08 +0200 9/4/99, Koenraad Elst wrote: >3) The Afro-Dravidian connection: ... I have nothing against much more >recent >connections between Africa and a section of the Indian >population, notably the >Dravidians. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Thu Sep 9 23:35:26 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 19:35:26 -0400 Subject: Tamil Heritage (Was Aryan invasion debate) Message-ID: <161227052131.23782.11392263798908202107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: * Why do you say ThirukkurAl is secular literature? Just because it *concentrates only on the three aims of life and ignores God? *The JainAs too don't believe in a creator God - does it make them secular? *Also note Thiruvalluvars extreme views on vegetarianism - *can you give me some similar views from the other secular or *non-secular poets that you speak of? * Plus the fact is that JainAs themselves claim the text to be their own. You are mistaken. The tirukkuRaL (T) does not deny God! read the first chapter ! The Saivaites, Vaishnavites, Christians(G.U.Pope) and others also hold T as their own. This is because T is so endearing to so many. Let me mention just one fact why tiruvaLLuvar is not of Jaina school: T holds the path of family life as supreme (see for example Kurals 46 and 47) contrary to Jainas. Undoubtedly vegetarianism is a key tenet of Jainism, and quite possibly tiruvaLLuvar could have adopted this tenet into his system, but this is not enough to prove he is of Jaina school. Would you say brAhmanas, the so-clled "Saiva" mudaliyaars and pillais etc. are also Jainas, because they also follow vegetarianism? The vegetarianism indeed was appreicated all across Indian subcontinent and Jainism (and to a lesser extent Buddhism) must have been a major influence. * Is there any Tamizh text older than the Rg Veda or even the Buddha? If *not, how can you claim that karma is of dravidian origin? Or of dravidian *loan words in the Rg Veda? I don't think there is any known Tamil texts which are older than the Rg Veda. It does not mean Tamil/Dravidian did not possess any literature at the time of the composition or redaction of Rg Veda. For example Asoka's edicts declare about the Tamil kingdoms south of his empire, but hardly any tamil literature can be securely attributed to those periods. Tamils have lost lots of their literature due to floods and other reasons. Is it not accepted that there are many words and ideas of dravidian origin in the Vedas and Vedic literature ? * * >Are they not original literaure of Tamils depicting * > Tamils' way of life ? Are not the post Sangam works such as * > Silappatikaaram depict Tamils way of life ? and tirukkuRaL Tamils' * > outlook and way of life? * * It ofcourse reflects a way of life. For example if you take the kural, *most JaniAs from whatever part of India, will feel pretty comfortable with it. *Even if there are a few distinct differences, it is not unnatural when you take *into account the regional diversity of the land. But what makes it truly *distinct from the culture of the rest of India? I cited those works because you denied the very heritage of Tamils! The aims and goals of almost all of humanity is somewhat similar, not just for the people of Indian subcontinent, but the diversity is more in style and approach than in content. What is different then? First the language (it is not an 'Arya' language), second the Tamils way of classification of lands and their people and their culture, value system, the spiritual paths (illaRam and thuRavaRam, and not as four stages of life as in 'Arya' culture), classical arts, music and dance, architecture etc. * * > Why, show me a body of literature in 'Arya' culture like * > Sangam works or even much later poems of Azvaar or some nAyanmaars * >called thEvAram. * *In the first place I'm not the one arguing for the distinct identity. But you're the one who is saying it is one and the same and there is no originality. *Whatever you've in Tamizh literature - be it prose, poetry or drama - you'll *in most cases find its equivalent in Samskrutam. Okay, please show me a body of literature. *But again there's four thousand years worth of philosophical development in *Samskrutam, which can hardly find a parallel in any language in the world, *let alone Tamizh. And this distinguishes the Arya or the brAhmanical works *from the rest. Systematic philosophy - whether brAhmanic or bauddha or jainA *- seems to have been in most part only a brAhmana forte. And this can be *attributed more to the vocation of the caste than to any racial *distinctness. I don't agree with your claims. I think English today has more wealth of literature including a record of diverse philosophical development than Samskrutam. But for the contributions and interest of a small number of western (plus Japanese) indologists, and their contributions in English and european languages, few in India would care for all the 'philosophical development'. Further a large part of what you claim did come from Tamil land and flourished in Tamil milieu. Can you deny that ? I leave aside your irrational caste-specific claim. * > Anyone who knows the intricate depth of tirukkuRaL, would certainly be * > quite amused by your comment that tiurvaLLuvar was 'just the publisher' :-) * *Knowledge of the text doesn't neccessarily mean knowledge of the author. And *apart from the legend that he was a weaver and a brother of avvaiyAr, *I don't think there's much information about him for anybody to make *substantial assertments about him. But the *problem is that the JainA tradition thinks he wasn't the author. There are a few concocted 'legends' and they are of no use. Any claim about the author of the tirukkuRaL has to be based on the work. * * >The systematic philosophic thoughts in * > Saiva and Vaishanva tamil literature are born out of Tamils spiritual * > experience. * *Systematic philosophy is not doctrinal in a religious way, but an effort to *solve the puzzle of the universe based on pure reason or in some cases to *reconcile the experiences of seers with reason. There is plenty of that in Tamil! * *If there's any significant quantity of this kind of literature in Tamizh, *I'm not aware of it. No wonder. * * > Katyanana and Patanjali are supposed to be 'southerners' * *But the problem is the Patanjali wrote his Yoga Sutras in Samskrutam. And *all the classic commentaries on it are also in the same language. Even *parallels exist in Tamizh, it hardly points to distinctness. Why is it a problem? It goes to show the rich heritage of the south. * * But Tamizh pattru need not mean a "Tamizh only" supremacist attitude, *but can also be raised to a integrating national cultural level. These are, in my opinion, irrelevant and non-issues here. * * > I don't have any stand in AIT, all that I'm arguing here is * > the Tamils/Dravidians have an independent heritage and culture. * * Your stand only implies the AIT stand. And saying that Tamil brAhmanas *alone are dravidians will find no support from any quarter, especially from the *brAhmanas themselves. Either accept all Indians to be one and accept your place *amongst the seperatist crowd. Thank you for earmarking a place for me :-) But I've already been accepted in humanity of which Indians are a part. /C.R.Selvakumar From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Sep 10 03:51:31 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 20:51:31 -0700 Subject: The mother of all debates Message-ID: <161227052116.23782.13517709275005286363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hans Henrich Hock wrote: > > I sympathize with your concerns, and I hope you will sympathize similarly > with my concerns about the nasty turn which some of the debate has taken > recently, especially from some of the "indigenists". > I think this statement betrays some bias on your side. As one who subscribes wholly neither to the AIT or OIT theories, I find that both sides have been equally nasty to each other. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Sep 9 21:04:01 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 21:04:01 +0000 Subject: Total instruments of debate Message-ID: <161227052124.23782.13375543305246203722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > > In a message dated 9/8/99 1:32:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN writes: > > > GTSorry , George , that is not true even traditionally. Mantras are > effective > > only if you > > belief in them to "call upon" the gods and pusue "rituals". They are for > > believers only. > > For indologists and academics of any place or country, there are no > mantras, > > there are > > only verses or poetical/metrical texts for historical study or any other > > agenda. .... > > With all due respect, Bharat, please look at RV 1.152.2. There you will see > how mantras are used in the RV > > Best, > George ThompsonDear George, Here is the translation of the mantra/verse. This is not expound it to anybody else but only to give an account of my reading of that mantra: Tva (One out of many), Eshaam (out of these), viciketat (has understood properly), Etat (this), mantrah (mantras,meaning mantras, in plural), kavishasta (praised by creators), Rghaavaan (inspired), Satya (and truthful). Ugro (The brilliant knower), Caturarshri (having four-fold understanding), Hanti (Excels, defeats), Devanido (those who slight or ridicule the gods), Trirashrim (and to the three-foldness [of means] attains). Ha (Indeed) , Prathama(the leaders [of this sort]) , Ajuryan (do not decay). I do not see here mantra being defined in the sense of "ultimate weapon" in debate or even for war as a "brahmaastra". It emphasises the esoteric nature of understanding which is every student is not able to cultivate and thus the superiority in excellence of the one who has arrived at it. In all ages the best "defeat" the mediocre. The whole sukta is dedicated to mitra and varuna asking them for deeper understanding of rta or truth. Yes, one may if so pleases reduce it to its grossest sense, that one who knows the secret of using mantras can kill non-belivers by incanting them. But I think, Vedas are not black magic. Bharat Gupt Associate Professor, Delhi Univ. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Sep 10 01:43:59 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 21:43:59 -0400 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052137.23782.9175549378036215404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sumathi Ramaswamy says, p. 79 p. 80 We see a lot of jargon here. If only she had done the needed research, it could have led to a real history of Tamil nationalism. It looks like she does not seem to be literate enough in Tamil to accomplish her chosen work. Based on the antiquity of the feminization of Tamil shown here, one can only conclude that Ramaswamy seems to have mistaken her own ignorance for objectivity when she says, p. 86 As we saw, the first explicit feminization of Tamil is in the cilappatikAram. In his translation, R. Parthasarathy says, "In the mahAbhArata and the Iliad, the protagonists yudhiSThira and Achilles are male; the protagonist kaNNaki in the cilappatikAram, is a female. This feature alone is significant enough for us to propose that the cilappatikAram stands in a subversive relationship to mahAbhArata. By making a woman the protagonist, iLaGkO rewrites the epic tradition by subverting its essentially androcentric bias. He displaces the semidivine warrior, and the heroic ethos that surrounds him, with a mortal woman who is transformed into a divinity. iLaGkO's work is unmistakably revisionary. It does not imitate the Sanskrit epic, prestigious though that is. It builds upon forms indigenous to Tamil, which it perfects" (The cilappatikAram of iLagkO aTikaL, p.8) Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Sep 10 04:29:26 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 00:29:26 -0400 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052139.23782.533439078234446321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Parthasarathy also notes that the Tamil king ceGkuTTuvan2's dedication of the memorial stone for the pattin2i (deified kaNNaki) "implies that pattin2i is now the tutelary deity of the kingdom and that he is under her protection. ceGkuTTuvan2 sees himself as uniting the three Tamil kingdoms culturally into a single nation (tamizakam). Thus both the king and the goddess become defenders of the realm ceGkuTTuvan2 himself brings the stone for the goddess pattin2i's image from the himAlaya, and he makes the Arya kings, kanaka and vijaya, carry it on their heads to the banks of the gaGgA We can see here the beginnings of Tamil separatism that has manifested itself in the mid-twentieth century " (p. 342-4) Sumathi Ramaswamy could have explored the fact that kaNNaki is said to be the child resulting from the penance of Tamil personified as a female. Given the fact that kaNNaki after apotheosis seems to become the defender of the realm of the Tamil nation, it is only fitting that Tamil is made to be the cause for the birth of kaNNaki. If the epic was created during the post-Classical period when Tamilakam was under the rule of kaLabhras, then iLaGkO is probably presenting his vision of Tamils regaining their national sovereignty. Interestingly, the feminization of Tamil is done by a priestess in the context of the worship of koRRavai, a goddess. What may be interesting to some is that while the north Indian kings are called Arya and contrasted from Tamil kings, a brahmin poet is called a Tamil. Moreover, another brahmin called mATalan2 from the Chola country is portrayed as going on a pilgrimage to potiyil mountain, kanniyAkumari, and the Ganges. Thus he is shown to have had religious affiliation to a site outside tamizakam. But he calls the Tamil ceGkuTTuvan2 "his king". Thus mATalan2's political affiliation to tamizakam and religious affiliation to Hindu sites outside tamizakam are clearly distinguished by iLaGkO. This is not very different from a Tamil Christian going to Jerusalem or a Tamil Muslim going to Mecca. Clearly iLaGkO was articulating a case of linguistic nationalism. Thus, linguistic nationalism was not a "regime of repetition and mimicry that colonialism sparked" among Tamils as posited by Ramaswamy. Regards S. Palaniappan From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Sep 10 14:29:40 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 07:29:40 -0700 Subject: 'civilizational' ardour Message-ID: <161227052151.23782.15978705171383812205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- nanda chandran wrote: > Though there might have been sporadic physical conflicts between the two > civilizations, later mixing and the 'civilizational' ardour of the brAhmanas > brought them together as one, with the dravidian culture itself peaking with > Aryan influence (Buddhism, Janism, Shaivism and Vaishnavism). > > This IMO, seems more realistic as the relationship between the 'Aryans' and > the 'Dravidians' seem more like a stronger culture to a weaker one, than > conqueror and conquered. > > And this doesn't in anyway, cut the scope of the theory that the original > homeland of the Aryans was Bharatvarsha itself. Too much is claimed for the hypothesis of how "civilization" was brought to Tamils, etc., The scholarly consensus is that Aryan homeland is not India itself. Also, classical sangam texts have no contemporaneous counterpart in sanskrit. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Fri Sep 10 07:58:22 1999 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 09:58:22 +0200 Subject: boddhAro matsaragrastA prabhavaH smaradU.sitAH In-Reply-To: <199909100140.LAA10561@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227052141.23782.16212762888548759405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:40 10/09/99 +1100, you wrote: >boddhAro matsara-grastA prabhavaH smara-dU.sitAH. > >Anyone know where this quotation is from? Alas, as it is often the case, bhartRhari's wisdom fits accurately to the context of the Indology list... J.F. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Sep 10 08:59:11 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 09:59:11 +0100 Subject: : ADMIN: End of AIT debate (fwd) Message-ID: <161227052145.23782.623052512155622679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Further to my note about ending the AIT thread, here is a clarification concerning some of the publications I alluded to. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Edwin Bryant Subject: Re: ADMIN: End of AIT debate On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > There are apparently at least two major forthcoming books on the topic > that serious scholars will want to read and digest before expressing > themselves further on the subject. Dear Indologists, I have been contacted by some of you about the summary on the I-A debate that I had promised to post over the summer. Unfortunately I have failed to do so partly because I was dreading the eruption of the type of discussion that has just ensued, and partly because I was working furiously on getting my book on the topic ready to give to Oxford University Press by September. That ms is ready and will be officially in press within a fortnight. I enclose the table of contents, below. I am also co-editing a volume including prominent points of view from all sides of this issue with Laurie Patton which will be published by Curzon Press. Contributors will include A. Parpola, M. Witzel, H. Hock, L. Fosse, J. Shaffer, M. Deshpande, M. Kenoyer, S. Kak, B.B.Lal, S.S. Misra, S. Talageri and S.P Gupta. Best, Edwin Bryant Title: The Indo-Aryan Invasion Debate: Quest of the Origins of Vedic Culture. Table of Contents Introduction. Chapter One. Myths of Origin: Europe and the Aryan Homeland Quest. Introduction Biblical Origins India the Cradle of Civilization The Aryans in Colonial and Missionary Discourse German Aryanism Two Centuries of Homeland Theories Present Day Homeland Hypotheses a. Gimbutas and the Kurgan homeland b. Renfrew and an early West Anatolian Homeland c. Gamkrelidze and Ivanov and an East Anatolian Homeland Conclusion Chapter Two. Early Indian Responses. Introduction Hindu Nationalists Responses Hindu Religious Responses Conclusion Chapter Three. Vedic Philology Introduction The Racial Evidence The West to East Geographical Shift in Sanskrit Texts Conclusion Chapter Four. Comparative Philology: The Dethronement of Sanskrit Introduction The Law of Palatals The Discovery of Hittite and the Laryngeals Objections from India Conclusion Chapter Five. Linguistic Substrata in Sanskrit Texts. Introduction Syntactical Evidence. Evidence of the Loan Words. a. Terms for Flora and Fauna in Indic Languages b. Place and River Names Dravidian and Munda Migrations Conclusion Chapter Six. Linguistic Palaeontology. Introduction Salmon and Beeches Elephants and Monkeys The Horse Conclusion Chapter Seven. Linguistic Evidence from outside of India. Introduction Semitic Loans in Indo-European Finno-Ugric Loans Other Traces of the Indo-Aryans The Avestan Evidence. The Mitanni Treaties. Conclusion Chapter Eight. The Linguistic Viability of an Indian Homeland Candidacy Introduction Center and Periphery Models Dialectical Subgroupings Nichols Sogdiana Model Conclusion Chapter Nine. The Indus Valley Civilization. Introduction Indra Stands Accused The Vedic Fire Altars The Sarasvat The Horse. The Chariot. The Indus Script. a Sanskrit Decipherment Attempts b Other Attempts Urbanity and the gveda Conclusion Chapter Ten Aryans in the Archaeological Record: Central Asia. Introduction Identifying Aryans The Northern Route a Vedic burial and funerary practices b Jamna and Related Cultures c Beshkent and Vakhsh Culture The Southern Route a The BMAC Culture Two Wave Theories Chapter Eleven. Aryans in the Archaeological Record: The Subcontinent Introduction The Gandhara Grave Culture The Jhukar Culture Cemetery H Culture Painted Grey Ware Culture Aryans in the Skeletal Record Continuity and Innovation In Defence of Migrations Conclusion Chapter Twelve The Dating of the Veda. Introduction Dating Proto-Indo-European Dating the Veda Astronomy and Vedic Chronology a, Background b. The Mgasra Epoque c. The Kttikas Epoque d. The Pole Star e. The Mathematics of the Sulvasstras f. Overview and Discussion of the Astronomical Evidence Conclusion Chapter Thirteen Aryan Origins and National Discourse. Introduction Nationalism and Historiography: General Comments Hindutvavad Stereotypes and Counterstereotypes A Myriad of Motives Conclusion Conclusion. From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Fri Sep 10 08:04:42 1999 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 10:04:42 +0200 Subject: boddhAro matsaragrastA prabhavaH smaradU.sitAH In-Reply-To: <199909100140.LAA10561@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227052143.23782.370741849334345388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:40 10/09/99 +1100, you wrote: >boddhAro matsara-grastA prabhavaH smara-dU.sitAH. > >Anyone know where this quotation is from? This is attributed to bhartRhari : vairAgya-zataka 2, p.49 in MR Kale's edition. boddhAro matsara-grastAH prabhavaH smaya-dUSitAH| abodhopahatAz cAnye jIrNam aGge subhASitam|| 2|| Alas, as it is often the case, bhartRhari's wisdom fits accurately to the context of the Indology list. J.F. From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Thu Sep 9 23:06:55 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 10:06:55 +1100 Subject: Jaina-lak.sa.naavalii Message-ID: <161227052133.23782.7109868964607840247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jaina-laksanavali ; Jaina paribhasika sabda-kosa / sampadaka Balacandra Siddhantasastri. Dilli : Vira-Seva-Mandira, Vi. Ni. samvat 2498-99, Vikrama samvat 2028-36. San 1972-79. 3 v. ; 27 cm. (Vira-Seva-Mandira granthamala ; granthanka 15). v.1 a-au: 15, 88, 312, 22 p. v. 2 Vi. Ni. samvat 2499. Vikrama samvat 2030. San 1973. kakva-pausnak?la: 8, 313-730, 22 p. v. 3 prakaranasamajati-hrasva: 8, xii, 48, 729-1220 p. From kbmartin at UMICH.EDU Fri Sep 10 14:11:33 1999 From: kbmartin at UMICH.EDU (katherine b martineau) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 10:11:33 -0400 Subject: contact information Message-ID: <161227052149.23782.17434643847675668369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for contact information on Dan M Matson, author of Michigan State University's South Asia Series Occaisional Paper No 15. I believe that he taught at the University of Wisc. in the early '70's. Thanks very much in advance, Katherine Martineau From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Fri Sep 10 20:53:07 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 10:53:07 -1000 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052154.23782.1842452517112674078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Palaniappan writes: >What may be interesting to some is that while the north Indian kings are >called Arya and contrasted from Tamil kings, a brahmin poet is called a >Tamil. Moreover, another brahmin called mATalan2 from the Chola country is >portrayed as going on a pilgrimage to potiyil mountain, kanniyAkumari, and >the Ganges. Thus he is shown to have had religious affiliation to a site >outside tamizakam. But he calls the Tamil ceGkuTTuvan2 "his king". Thus >mATalan2's political affiliation to tamizakam and religious affiliation to >Hindu sites outside tamizakam are clearly distinguished by iLaGkO. This is >not very different from a Tamil Christian going to Jerusalem or a Tamil >Muslim going to Mecca. So far, so good. No problem. >Clearly iLaGkO was articulating a case of linguistic nationalism. Could he just have been stating a simple fact, i.e., that ceGkuTTuvan2 was mATalan2's king, rather than "articulating a case of linguistic nationalism"? Recently, my 4-1/2 year-old daughter told me that her languages are English and Tamil, and her country is Hawaii. Is she articulating a case of Hawaiian nationalism, or merely stating (what she sees as) a fact? Regards, Raja. From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Sep 10 00:40:08 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 11:40:08 +1100 Subject: boddhAro matsaragrastA prabhavaH smaradU.sitAH Message-ID: <161227052135.23782.313816130559952022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> boddhAro matsara-grastA prabhavaH smara-dU.sitAH. Anyone know where this quotation is from? From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Sep 10 13:30:18 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 13:30:18 +0000 Subject: boddhAro matsaragrastA prabhavaH smaradU.sitAH Message-ID: <161227052153.23782.3536224562021665639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Royce Wiles wrote: > > boddhAro matsara-grastA prabhavaH smara-dU.sitAH. > > Anyone know where this quotation is from? The next line runs like this; Abodho'pahatAs.canye jirn.amange subhas.itam The first caran.a describes the subscribers of Indology like myself, the second describes world leaders like Clinton and Milosowitch ,Vajpeyi and Nawaz Sharif, the third comments upon the tv watchers of the world, and the fourth lamnents the state of universities world wide. >From Bartr.hari , SubhAs..itatrims.atI. The first verse after invocation. Bharat Gupt From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 10 21:13:02 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 14:13:02 -0700 Subject: Tamil heritage Message-ID: <161227052156.23782.1172108809763472510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Would you say brAhmanas, the so-clled > "Saiva" mudaliyaars and pillais etc. are also Jainas, because they also > follow vegetarianism? The vegetarianism indeed was appreicated all > across Indian subcontinent and Jainism (and to a lesser extent Buddhism) > must have been a major influence. But though the brAhmanas took up vegetarianism, even till a very late date they didn't give up animal sacrifices as per Vedic regulations. Even ShankarAchArya doesn't forbid them and he's much later than Thiruvalluvar. And animal sacrifices to Gods are still carried out in Tamil Nadu by Tamils. And I doubt if animal sacrifices would go well with Thiruvalluvar and this is one of the main objections of Jainism had against Vedic brAhmanism. And since you already accept he might be influenced by Buddhism or Jainism on vegetarianism, also note that Thiruvalluvar himself mentions brAhmanas in his work. So that would prove the existence of brAhmanas also in his environment. And since there're dharmashAstras and other ethical Samskrutam texts, either Astika or nAstika, which predate Thirukural and teach most of what Thirukural has to say, how can you call it original or distinct? Also, take into account that only a very small minority of Tamils are vegetarian. And judging by the type of reaction against brAhmanas during the dravidian nationalist period, Thiruvalluvar's, "innA saithArai oruththal avar nAhna nannaiyam saidhu vidal," obviously held no meaning for the Tamils. So in what way can Thirukural be said to represent the 'Tamil' way of life? Actually considering the brAhmanic reaction to dravidian nationalism and their way of life, the brAhmanas or even the Jainas from whatever part of the country seem relate better with Thiruvalluvar's way of life, than the Tamils themselves. >For example Asoka's edicts declare about the Tamil kingdoms >south of his empire, but hardly any tamil literature can be >securely attributed to those periods. But Ashoka is later than the Rg Veda by atleast a milleneum. And mention of a people doesn't necessarily imply progress of their culture, in terms of art or literature. >Tamils have lost lots of their >literature due to floods and other reasons. If this finds academic acceptance, then there's something very wrong indeed! North India which faced the most barbaric invasions, which also had to fight deliberate assaults against its culture, could still preserve a good part of its literature (did it?), while due to floods and other reasons (???) Tamils have lost their literature? Does this even sound reasonable? >Is it not accepted that there are many words and ideas >of dravidian origin in the Vedas and Vedic literature ? I do not know who accepts this or what proofs warrant such acceptance. But the simple logic would be that since there's no dravidian literature which predates the Rg Veda, all such speculations are without a solid base and can be at best learned guesswork and conjecture. And to go on about loan words and such, on such a base, is but shooting in the dark. > The aims and goals of almost all of humanity is somewhat similar, not > just for the people of Indian subcontinent, but the diversity is > more in style and approach than in content. What is different then? Not so. Never in the history of any other culture, has a concept called samnyAsam been integrated into normal life, the way it was in BhArathvarsha. And ofcourse it is totally related to the aim and goal of life. > First the language (it is not an 'Arya' language), Educated Indians are just getting into this field. Let's see what a few more years of study in linguistics and Indology brings forth! > second the Tamils way of classification of lands and their people and their > culture, value system, I still fail to see any major distinctness. > the spiritual paths (illaRam and thuRavaRam, > and not as four stages of life as in 'Arya' culture), brahmachArya + grhasta - illaram vAnaprastha + samnyAsin - thuravaram > classical arts, music and dance, architecture etc. Again, I don't see any major distinctness. And I'm still waiting for a response from Tamil scholars to Prof. Gupt's query regarding Carnatic music. >I don't agree with your claims. I think English today has more wealth of >literature including a record of diverse philosophical development than >Samskrutam. But translations of Greek, Roman and German philosophers from their original languages cannot be accounted for as original English literature. And English has been a literary language for only the past three or four centuries (or is it much later?). >But for the contributions and interest of >a small number of western (plus Japanese) indologists, and their >contributions in English and european languages, few in India would >care for all the 'philosophical development'. Ofcourse, that's what I pointed out. Apart from brAhmanical circles, I doubt if there ever was any interest in other sections of the Indian society about systematic philosophy. And just because most don't "care", it doesn't in any way affect the importance of such literature. And for those concerned about culture and civilization, it's ofcourse the most important. >Further >a large part of what you claim did come from Tamil land and flourished in >Tamil milieu. Can you deny that ? I doubt if there's much proof. And since we're talking about Samskrutam which obviously met with such hostility amongst the Tamils, I doubt if it makes a whit of a difference where it was produced. And definitely very little 'dravidian' involvement in the whole thing. *Systematic philosophy is not doctrinal in a religious way, but an effort to *solve the puzzle of the universe based on pure reason or in some cases to *reconcile the experiences of seers with reason. >There is plenty of that in Tamil! For example? Ofcourse I'm talking about original texts and not translations from Samskrutam. >Why is it a problem? It goes to show the rich heritage of the south. So are we moving from Tamil and dravidian to "South"? > But I've already been accepted in > humanity of which Indians are a part. And from the South to Indian? Well, atleast there's progress :-) Actually I've a few questions and would be grateful for answers from Tamizh scholars : 1. Was there ever any Tamizh literature found in the other four 'dravida' states? 2. Is there any record of any 'invasion' by Aryas in Tamizh literature? 3. Apart from references which can also be explained from the language context, is there any clear reference to brAhmanas or North Indians are a seperate race in Tamizh literature? 4. Even if Tamils are indeed a seperate race, what proof is there that they were the inhabitants of Harappa? 5. BrAhmanas even in Tamil Nadu due to sub sect names and literature can be traced to the North. Is there any indication in Tamizh literature or culture, which points to a prior North Indian homeland? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 10 21:37:03 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 14:37:03 -0700 Subject: civilizational ardour Message-ID: <161227052161.23782.16034301032499020474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan M writes : >Too much is claimed for the hypothesis of how "civilization" >was brought to Tamils, etc., The scholarly consensus is that Aryan >homeland is not India itself. Also, classical sangam texts have no >contemporaneous counterpart in sanskrit. If classical Sangam age is between anywhere 500 BC to 500 AD, it is the age of the most vigorous philosophical development in Samskrutam literature. It was the age of the later Upanishads, the Buddha, Mahavira, the Astika and the nAstika schools. Where is the basis for your claim? Some poor folk in Tamil Nadu still sacrifice animals to Gods, drink liquor when somebody dies and dance and sing on the streets following the corpse to the graveyard. Do 'upper caste' Tamils do that? I don't think racially they're different from the poor Tamils and have a lot in common in culture and language with the poor Tamils. So why are they different? And whose is the original culture? Did the poor folk descend in terms of culture or did the richer folk ascend? And how so? And given the claims of the "secular" nature of dravidian culture why is there such a discrepancy in the culture between the same people, at all? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Sep 10 08:30:29 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 19:30:29 +1100 Subject: boddhAro matsaragrastA prabhavaH smaradU.sitAH Message-ID: <161227052147.23782.7969015207103879001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for taking the time to identify the verse. It was cited (incorrectly) in an essay by a Hindi author (Bharatendu). Royce Wiles From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Sat Sep 11 00:35:10 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 20:35:10 -0400 Subject: Tamil heritage Message-ID: <161227052163.23782.9012698098416330166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This will be my last posting in response to Nanda Chandran. Nanda Chandran wrote: *>Would you say brAhmanas, the so-clled *> "Saiva" mudaliyaars and pillais etc. are also Jainas, because they also *> follow vegetarianism? The vegetarianism indeed was appreicated all *> across Indian subcontinent and Jainism (and to a lesser extent Buddhism) *> must have been a major influence. * *But though the brAhmanas took up vegetarianism, even till a very late date *they didn't give up animal sacrifices as per Vedic regulations. Even *ShankarAchArya doesn't forbid them and he's much later than *Thiruvalluvar. And animal sacrifices *to Gods are still carried out in Tamil Nadu by Tamils. And I doubt if *animal sacrifices would go well with Thiruvalluvar and this is one of the *main objections of Jainism had against Vedic brAhmanism. I don't know whether there is evidence for ancient Tamil brAmanaas having conducted animal sacrifice, though it appears animal sacrifices have been conducted recently by brAhmanas who live in Tamil Nadu. The Saiva Mudaliyars and Saiva Pillais and many individual families in other castes are vegetarians. My point is strong support or belief in vegetarianism does not mean the person is a Jain. * *And since you already accept he might be influenced by Buddhism or Jainism *on vegetarianism, also note that Thiruvalluvar himself mentions brAhmanas in *his work. So that would prove the existence of brAhmanas also in his *environment. tiruvaLLuvar does not mention any caste. The word antaNar does *NOT* mean members of the brahmin caste. Words like antaNar and cAnROr are like 'compassionate ones and wise ones'. When tiruvaLLuvar mentions in Kural 259 about *not* eating meat ("avi corintu Ayiram vEttalin.."), he probably means Vedic brAhamanas (who may not be original Tamil brAhamanas), but still he does not mention any caste names. * *And since there're dharmashAstras and other ethical Samskrutam texts, either *Astika or nAstika, which predate Thirukural and teach most of what *Thirukural has to say, how can you call it original or distinct? There is *no* dharmashAstra texts in Samskrutam which can be compared with tirukkuRaL! The loftiness of tirukkuRaL and its intricate depth are incomparable. Vast majority of dharmashAstras including the Manu Smrithi (which is a monumental shame if you ask me) are very discriminatory in a fundamental way. Also they are not older or much older than tirukkuRaL. * *Also, take into account that only a very small minority of Tamils are *vegetarian. And judging by the type of reaction against brAhmanas during the *dravidian nationalist period, Thiruvalluvar's, "innA saithArai oruththal *avar nAhna nannaiyam saidhu vidal," obviously held no meaning for the Tamils. You are hopelessly mixing up issues! (I've an answer but this is not the place; you don't seem to understand the meaning of 'innA seytaarai..') *So in what way can Thirukural be said to represent the 'Tamil' way of life? If you read tirukkuRaL and understand the Tamil ethos and way of life you will see. [..] * >For example Asoka's edicts declare about the Tamil kingdoms * >south of his empire, but hardly any tamil literature can be * >securely attributed to those periods. * * But Ashoka is later than the Rg Veda by atleast a milleneum. And mention *of a people doesn't necessarily imply progress of their culture, in terms of *art or literature. But there are literatures from an earlier period like tolkAppiyam and the internal references point to the existence of highly regarded literature. That art and literature was well developed is evident from references in Sangam literature also. * * >Tamils have lost lots of their * >literature due to floods and other reasons. * * If this finds academic acceptance, then there's something very wrong *indeed! North India which faced the most barbaric invasions, *which also had to fight deliberate assaults against its culture, *could still preserve a good part of its literature * (did it?), while due to floods and other reasons (???) Tamils have lost * their literature? Does this even sound reasonable? For a moment forget about the lost Tamil literature. What is available today is enough to make one understand about the development of art and literature among Tamils. Some of the possible reasons for the preservation of Samskrutam literature could be following: (1) Most of the literature being zealously guarded for religious purposes and orally communicated, (2) brAhmanas are protected, (3) the invaders might have wanted to learn the what was worthwhile there as they were acclaimed as great by brAhmanas, etc. There is plenty of evidence available from the last 200 years or so for the systematic destruction of Tamil works. Burning down the Jaffna library is just one example. * * >Is it not accepted that there are many words and ideas * >of dravidian origin in the Vedas and Vedic literature ? * * I do not know who accepts this or what proofs warrant such acceptance. *But the simple logic would be that since there's no dravidian literature which *predates the Rg Veda, all such speculations are without *a solid base and can be at best learned guesswork and conjecture. * And to go on about loan words and such, on such a base, is but shooting *in the dark. Well, your premise is wrong! * * > The aims and goals of almost all of humanity is somewhat similar, not * > just for the people of Indian subcontinent, but the diversity is * > more in style and approach than in content. What is different then? * * Not so. Never in the history of any other culture, has a concept called *samnyAsam been integrated into normal life, the way it was in BhArathvarsha. *And ofcourse it is totally related to the aim and goal of life. I don't know what you call 'a normal life', but sanyAsam in one form or other is there in many cultures. * * > First the language (it is not an 'Arya' language), * * Educated Indians are just getting into this field. Let's see what a few *more years of study in linguistics and Indology brings forth! Okay. * * > second the Tamils way of classification of lands and their people and *their culture, value system, * * I still fail to see any major distinctness. May be you don't know the Tamils 'thiNai' * * > the spiritual paths (illaRam and thuRavaRam, * > and not as four stages of life as in 'Arya' culture), * * brahmachArya + grhasta - illaram * vAnaprastha + samnyAsin - thuravaram No, this is not correct. In Tamil system one can attain 'vITu' (mutti or mukti, liberation, salvation or whatever you call the great ultimate) in *illaRam* and not only that it is the preferred and supreme path (according to tiruvaLLuvar). It(illaRam) is fundamentally different from the male-oriented two stages of brahmachArya and grhasta. Similarly, Tamil tuRavaRam has nothing to do with vAnaprastha or and also samnyAsa stage. * * > classical arts, music and dance, architecture etc. * *Again, I don't see any major distinctness. And I'm still waiting for a *response from Tamil scholars to Prof. Gupt's query regarding Carnatic music. Perhaps you don't understand, and I will be replying to Prof. Gupt's comments separately. * >I don't agree with your claims. I think English today has more wealth of * >literature including a record of diverse philosophical development than * >Samskrutam. * * But translations of Greek, Roman and German philosophers from their *original languages cannot be accounted for as original English literature. And *English has been a literary language for only the past three or four centuries *(or is it much later?). Antiquity is not everything. A person who knows English can understand, enjoy, and pursue far more diverse set of thoughts with excellent starting points. * * >But for the contributions and interest of * >a small number of western (plus Japanese) indologists, and their * >contributions in English and european languages, few in India would * >care for all the 'philosophical development'. * * Ofcourse, that's what I pointed out. Apart from brAhmanical circles, I *doubt if there ever was any interest in other sections of the Indian society *about systematic philosophy. My point was about people knowledgeable in Samskrutam and not just brAhmanas, and I understand that there were and are many non-brAhmana scholars. Your exclusivity claims are as I've seen without any basis. * * And just because most don't "care", it doesn't in any way affect the *importance of such literature. And for those concerned about culture and *civilization, it's ofcourse the most important. I hope you know there were and are many who attain the mukti (or whatever the great state is called) without any knowledge of samskrutam! Many people develop many philosophies and schools of thought without any samskrutam! *>Further a large part of what you claim did come from Tamil land *>and flourished in Tamil milieu. Can you deny that ? * * I doubt if there's much proof. And since we're talking about Samskrutam *which obviously met with such hostility amongst the Tamils, *I doubt if it makes a whit of a difference where it was produced. *And definitely very little 'dravidian' involvement in the whole thing. Tamils did not show any hostility to Samskrutam, except may be some critical comments about the claim is superiorty for Samskrutam. Samskrutam enjoyed great support in Tamil Lands (if you look at the number of works, epigraphical records). Time will tell whether 'dravidian' had any involvement or not. I would recommend reading Prof. George Hart's works for a start. * **Systematic philosophy is not doctrinal in a religious way, but an effort to **solve the puzzle of the universe based on pure reason or in some cases to **reconcile the experiences of seers with reason. * * >There is plenty of that in Tamil! * * For example? Ofcourse I'm talking about original texts and not *translations from Samskrutam. Sri Ramanujar is said to have listened daily to Tamil Azvaars words and their meaning but he produced works in Sanskrit. Now, will you say what he learned from Tamil influenced him ? What about Adi Sankara ? Now, about works in Tamil: Tamil has a *different* system and approach. The thousands of songs of tEvAram, tiruvAcakam, AzvAr nAlAyiram, the fourteen works such as civajjaana pOtam, uNmai viLakkam etc. etc. are excellent examples. [..] * Actually I've a few questions and would be grateful for answers from *Tamizh scholars : * * 1. Was there ever any Tamizh literature found in the other four 'dravida' *states? Yes, in present-day Kerala and at least suthern parts of Karnataka for sure. * 2. Is there any record of any 'invasion' by Aryas in Tamizh literature? Yes. For example a Pandian King is called 'Ariyap-padai-katanta neTunjceziyan'. * 3. Apart from references which can also be explained from the language *context, is there any clear reference to brAhmanas or North Indians *are a seperate race in Tamizh literature? There are references to Greeks/Romans and Mouriyas. * 4. Even if Tamils are indeed a seperate race, what proof is there that *they were the inhabitants of Harappa? People debate about these things based on insufficient evidence as far as I can see. * 5. BrAhmanas even in Tamil Nadu due to sub sect names and literature can *be traced to the North. Is there any indication in Tamizh literature *or culture, which points to a prior North Indian homeland? Would you 'trace' the Tamil Christians to England and say they came from England or Italy etc. ? Tamil literature except for a few declare the south the land of 'good tamil'. Tamils talk about 'corrupted forms of Tamil' in the north. Tamils refer to Himalayas and its flora and fauna. C.R. Selvakumar From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Fri Sep 10 21:11:42 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 22:11:42 +0100 Subject: boddhAro matsaragrastA prabhavaH smaradU.sitAH In-Reply-To: <199909100140.LAA10561@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227052159.23782.15829942693427941943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:40:08 +1100 Send reply to: Indology From: Royce Wiles Subject: boddhAro matsaragrastA prabhavaH smaradU.sitAH To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > boddhAro matsara-grastA prabhavaH smara-dU.sitAH. > > Anyone know where this quotation is from? This is BhartRhari's NItizataka, verse 2. KSA From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Sep 11 02:23:53 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 22:23:53 -0400 Subject: question on dates? Message-ID: <161227052164.23782.3185260315387741906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I have a mundane Indological question. I am trying to find out the dates of these two authors, and any help would be appreciated: Mahaadeva, author of a commentary on the Satyaa.saa.dha zrautasuutra Raamaa.n.daara/Raamaagnicit, author of a commentary on Aapastamba zrautasuutrabhaa.sya The dates of these two may help me settle the date of an author who cites them, especially if they are later than Maadhavaacaarya of the 14th century. Best, Madhav Deshpande From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Sep 11 03:52:55 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 23:52:55 -0400 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052166.23782.4704969344931203055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU asked: > Could he just have been stating a simple fact, > i.e., that ceGkuTTuvan2 was mATalan2's king, > rather than "articulating a case of linguistic > nationalism"? No, because mATalan2's king is a Chola while ceGkuTTuvan2 is a Chera king. The conversation takes place on the bank of the river gaGgA. Now back to the review. Discussing European scholars Beschi, Robert Caldwell, and G. U. Pope, Sumathi Ramaswamy writes: p. 190 Ramaswamy's complaint "However, Tamil's enthusiasts, and even academics in Tamilnadu today, rarely allege that these missionaries violated Tamil, though they so accuse other "foreigners," such as Brahmans and Aryans from North India" reveals some logical flaws in her thinking as well as her ignorance of the history of Tamil grammatical tradition as we'll see. Missionaries in Tamilnadu did not write grammars for the sake of getting them published by University presses and getting tenure. Apart from any purely scholarly reason, their main goal was to help other non-Tamil missionaries to learn the languages of their future congregations. For this, they had prepared their grammars based on the expected students' previous grammatical background. I do not see anything wrong in that. Regards S. Palaniappan From hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Sep 11 14:00:05 1999 From: hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 99 07:00:05 -0700 Subject: "boddhAro matsaragrastA prabhavaH smaya-dU.sitAH"- "smaya" Vs "smara" Message-ID: <161227052177.23782.12096249320982756415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My Dear Indology friends, In the Quotaion from Barthruhari: "boddhAro matsaragrastA prabhavaH smaya-dU.sitAH..." the word "smaya" seems to be correct; and not "smara". Reason: "smyah" means, Astonishment, Surprise, Arrogance, Pride, Haughtiness, Conceit, etc. (Please see Kalidasa's Rahguvamsha 5:13 "tasmai smayaavEshavivarjitaaya..."; Bharata NaatyashAstra 24:163, "smayatE = conceals) " ... smayate sA nigUDham cha vAchancha adhOmukhI vadEth", also, MahavIracharita 2:22), Please see Shri V S Apte's Sanskrit Dictionary (for "smayah", and Sir Monier Williams' Eng-Sanskrit Dictionary (for "Conceit"). See, "smaya" is more appropriate than "smara"(=Cupid, Love, etc)! And, that is the word in the original too! (Please see Prof Barbara Stoler Miller's Translation with Text of Bhartrihari Poems, Columbia Univ Press , 1967, stanza 4, page 4 , ..." Kings are defiled by haughty ways;...."). Sincerely, -Harihareswara Stockton, California. ================= From sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET Sat Sep 11 07:14:20 1999 From: sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET (S Stephen) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 99 07:14:20 +0000 Subject: Tamil heritage Message-ID: <161227052173.23782.4570833820801469814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I have decided to go back on my word :-( and start posting to the list. nanda chandran wrote: , also note that Thiruvalluvar himself mentions brAhmanas in > his > work. So that would prove the existence of brAhmanas also in his > environment. Did the word brahmana always have the same meaning as it does today? Flavius Arrianus divides Indians into seven castes. Which of these is brahmana? Thanks. Sujatha Following is the translated text from Flavius Arrianus' Indica that refers to castes: All the Indians have been divided into seven castes. Among them are the wise men, fewer in number than the others, but most esteemed in reputation and dignity. For no necessity is incumbent upon them to do any bodily labour; nor do they contribute anything to the commonwealth from the effects of their labour; nor in a word have they any compulsory duty except to offer sacrifices to the gods on behalf of the commonwealth of India. Whoever sacrifices in his private capacity has one of these wise men as a director of the sacrifice, since otherwise he does not offer acceptable sacrifice to the gods. These also are the only Indians skilled in divination; and it is not lawful for anyone to practise the art except for a man who is a wise man. They practise divination in regard to the seasons of the year, and if any calamity befalls the commonwealth. It is not their business to practise their art in regard to the private affairs of individuals, either because the art of divination does not extend to smaller matters, or because it is not worthy of them to labour about such things. Whoever has made three errors in his practise of divination receives no other punishment except that for the future he is compelled to be silent; and there is no one who can compel that man to speak, upon whom the judgment of silence has been passed. These wise men pass their lives naked; in the winter in the sun under the open sky, but in the summer, when the sun holds sway, they live in the meadows and in the marshes under great trees, the shadow of which Nearchus says extends 500 feet all round, and I0,000 men could be shaded under one tree. So large are these trees. They feed on the fruits of the seasons and the inner bark of trees, which is both pleasant and nutritious; not less so than dates. After these the second caste are the agriculturalists, who are the most numerous class of Indians. These have no martial weapons, nor do they care for deeds of war, but till the soil. They pay dues to the kings or to those cities which are independent. If any war happens to break out among the Indians with each other it is not lawful for them to touch the tillers of the soil, or to lay waste the country itself by destroying the crops. But while others are waging war against each other and slaying each other as they find the chance, they are ploughing in peace and quietness near them, or are gathering in the vintage, or are pruning their vines, or are reaping their crops. The third caste of Indians are the shepherds and the cowherds, who dwell neither in cities nor in villages; but are nomads and live up and down the mountains. They pay a tax from their flocks and herds. These men also catch birds and hunt wild beasts throughout the land. 12. The fourth caste is that of the artisans and retail tradesmen. These men perform public duties at their own cost, and pay a tax upon their work, except those who make weapons of war. These receive pay from the commonwealth. In this caste are the shipwrights and sailors who sail up and down the rivers. The fifth caste of the Indians consists of the warriors, who in number come next to the husbandmen and enjoy very great freedom and good cheer. These men practise nothing but warlike exercises. Others make the weapons for them, others provide them with horses; and others serve them in the camp, who groom the horses for them, keep their weapons bright, manage the elephants, keep the chariots in order, and drive the horses. They themselves fight, as long as it is necessary to wage war; but when there is peace, they live with good cheer; and they receive such high pay from the state that they can easily support others from it. The sixth caste of Indians consists of men who are called overseers. These supervise what is done throughout the country and in the cities, and make reports to the king, where the Indians are ruled by a king, or to the magistrates where the people have a democratic government. It is unlawful for these men to make false reports; but no Indian has incurred the charge of falsehood. The seventh caste consists of those who assist the king in deliberating on public affairs, or assist the officials in the cities which enjoy a democratic government. This class is small in number, but in wisdom and justice excels all the others. From them are chosen their rulers, governors of provinces, deputies, treasurers, generals, admirals, controllers of expenditure, and superintendents of agriculture. From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Sat Sep 11 12:35:00 1999 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 99 08:35:00 -0400 Subject: Is ananda an emotion? Message-ID: <161227052175.23782.18045750007944131475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fellow Indologoists: In a recent seminar there was heated discussion whether ananda (bliss) is a state of being or is it an exalted human emotion? The speaker argued that ananda is not an emotion. Any thoughts? Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ghoutman at TESCO.NET Sat Sep 11 07:38:18 1999 From: ghoutman at TESCO.NET (Gustaaf Houtman) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 99 08:38:18 +0100 Subject: Burma: Buddhism & archaeology (2/2) Message-ID: <161227052169.23782.15833081070152139719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ANTHROPOLOGY TODAY: `REMAKING MYANMAR AND HUMAN ORIGINS' - PART 2/2 an account of the role of pagoda relics and museum fossils in SLORC-SPDC concepts of nation-building ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (c) Royal Anthropological Institute 1999 Vol 15, No 4, August 1999, pp 13-19. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- by Gustaaf Houtman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Pondaung revealed to the world Subsequent to these initial explorations by the respective 'national' teams the military organised a seminar and an exhibition at the National Museum of Ethnology, Rangoon, between 1-2 June 1998 to which geologists, palaeontologists, anthropologists, historians and archaeologists nation-wide were invited. At this seminar General Khin Nyunt urged the following: He noted that just as an individual's worth depended on his heritage and his achievements, so also a nation's prestige could be measured in terms of its lineage and historical and cultural background. A nation that can provide historical evidence of its ancient roots and the emergence and growth of its culture, traditions and national traits is a nation in which national fervour and patriotism thrives. It is also a nation whose people will try to perpetuate its identity, sovereignty and independence. He said this was especially true of a country such as ours that had once been enslaved under an imperialist power and had had our history distorted and misrepresented. To right this wrong, the Government of the Union of Myanmar had laid down social objectives which includes the uncovering of true historical records and the resolve to correct the warped and biased versions of Myanmar history as written by some foreign historians. He however acknowledged the fact that Myanmar historians, scientists and researchers had throughout the ages carried out research and study in their own capacity and had been custodians of authentic historical facts. Now however with full government support and sponsorship the results of isolated or individual research could be collated for a correct interpretation and presentation of a coherent authentic history of Myanmar. Lieutenant General Khin Nyunt concluded by urging the participants to prove on the basis of the significant and substantial finds of the primate fossils, Amphipithecus Mogaungensis and the Amphipithecus Bahensis that 'The Myanmar people are not visitors who came from a faraway land and settled here. Life began here in this Myanmar environment of land, air and water. Their roots are here.' And that 'The Myanmar people are the true natives, born and bred here, who had matured and flourished as a people with their own culture, art, customs and traditions.' A seminar on these discoveries at the Diamond Jubilee Hall, Yangon University, between 2-4 June 1998. This was attended by the Pondaung fossil expedition team and another team engaged in the study of ancient cultural evidence in Budalin Township, Sagaing. A number of historians, anthropologists and archaeologists were present at this event. It was co-sponsored by the OSS and the Higher Education Department of the Ministry of Education. Pondaung's propaganda value Evidently the Pondaung discoveries have implications well beyond the realms of science. They are portrayed in the regime's publicity as 'taken to indicate the origin of man in Pondaung Ponnyar area in the middle Myanmar', and are routinely introduced as a precursor to the political history of the Union and the regime's achievements. General Khin Nyunt wanted the Pondaungia fossils to take pride of place at the new five-floor National Museum at No. 66-74, Pyay Road, where the Pondaungia would become central to political propaganda. Construction of the National Museum commenced in June 1990, it was inaugurated on 18 September 1996 and by December 1997 General Khin Nyunt had decided two things deserved pride of place, namely the Pondaung discoveries and the last royal throne. In the official museum report it is said that 'arrangements are under way to exhibit ancient Myanmar attire, other cultural objects of national races and fossils including fossilized primates excavated as well as collected by a research team led by Colonel Than Tun, Head of Department, Office of Strategic Studies, from the Pondaung area and others donated by the locals.' The regime then made a grand claim: `Fossils are evidence . that Stone Age human beings lived in Myanmar and there also existed creatures in Myanmar prior to the period of humans. It can now be firmly said that there were living beings in Myanmar 40 million years ago and if Myanmar scholars can present with firm and full evidence to the world, it can be assumed that human civilization began in our motherland. The Ministry of Education is making arrangements to invite foreign experts to a conference to look into the facts related to the fossils and the Pondaung formation and finally ascertain them.' (Information Sheet, 29.12.1997) At Exhibition '98 to Revitalize and Foster Patriotic Spirit, held between 1-30 November 1998 at the Tatmadaw [Army] Convention Centre, General Khin Nyunt explained the aims of this exhibition: to promote dynamism of patriotic spirit and national pride; to strengthen the spirit of preserving traditions of origin, lineage and the national character; to contribute towards a correct way of thinking and firm lofty concepts; and to enable the younger generation to learn true historical events. His major pride was that 'primate fossils found in Myanmar are the evidence of the existence of manlike creatures in the nation 40 million years ago when man had not evolved yet and that this has been approved by international experts'. Furthermore, 'there are firm historical links that Myanmars have evolved through Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age and different stages of civilization in their own nation'. The result of such an excellent history of biological and cultural, superior and independent development means that 'there are records that Myanmars have fine traditions, possessing a high-standard culture, and always repulsed the many foreign aggressions with unyielding spirit throughout various eras'. The essence of the exhibition, he is quoted as saying, is to 'promote dynamism of patriotism and national pride for the youths to possess the conviction to safeguard independence and sovereignty with correct knowledge and view and thoughts in their heart', while 'protecting youths from being deceived by internal traitors to put them under the colonialists' influence'. Furthermore, under the central heading 'Myanmar Today' the regime's Internet site has a sub-section 'Culture and Traditions' in which the pride of royalty, with which the army identify, is linked to the Pondaung finds, indicating 'the existence of Myanmar culture and traditions since time immemorial'. A critique of Pondaung politics In the course of exhibiting their finds, the regime displayed what was supposedly a human fossil from the same region where U Thaw Tin and U Ba Maw had found fossils in 1978. Though these two Burmese academics had at the time tried to share their discoveries with the international community, they were arrested and the fossils were confiscated by the BSPP. Since that time, it was not known where these fossils were kept. General Khin Nyunt explained that at the time they had conserved the fossils in a secure place so they could be studied 'for the advancement of the people'. However, it would appear that the two who had originally discovered the fossils did not hypothesize that the human race originated in Burma. Furthermore, In a paper delivered in November 1995, well before Khin Nyunt ordered his Pondaung missions into the field, Professor Than Tun, one of the most respected scholars in the field of Burma's historical research (not to be confused with OSS Colonel Than Tun who led the Pondaung Expedition), provided a serious critique of Ba Maw's early work on the Pondaung fossils during the BSPP era (1962-88) and urged that 'we shall have to wait for more discoveries'. Professor Than Tun found archaeological speculations about the origination of mankind in Burma to be quite ill-informed and based on unsystematic research, causing unnecessary confusion in the archaeological world. He has furthermore criticized the general state of archaeological research in Burma. He says that, though the department of archaeology will celebrate its centenary in 1998, 'its operations are still being carried out in the early 19th century style'. Stronger still, 'like the looters of old, they take what they want and leave what they don't want'. He encourages the keeping of records, the central reporting of all finds, research on them, and accurate dating. Undoubtedly, were there a free press, such criticism would have been amplified and joined by others to temper some of the regime's spectacular cultural and archaeological visions. If this casts doubt on the regime's archaeological methodology, Win Thein, benefiting from living abroad and the freedom to say what he thinks, has indicated the Pondaung project merely represents regime propaganda to instil patriotism in the people, saying that though General Khin Nyunt and his colleagues have been working very hard in Pondaung, their attempt represents 'a new evolutionary theory which no one can accept' and he points out that there is no academic freedom in Burma and that 'the regime has previously coerced academics into writing history as they want it recorded'. The generals are probably less interested in these finds than in the many magical ('mundane knowledge') myths about Pondaung. In the tourist litereature it has been described as subject to 'tall tales and supernatural mysteries' where 'witches and sorcerers . molest visitors' and alchemists produced elixirs by powdering the strange fossils they gathered. The uniqueness of the archaeological finds, at a time when Burma is in such turmoil, may lift the spirits of some, but it demonstrates a questionable addiction to proving the unique superiority of the 'Myanmar' race. It reveals to us how determined the army are to waste public resources, including its top intelligence officers, to track down culture, to detect components that may be used to help construct a new Myanmar. It has furthermore attempted to build large museums to compete with pagodas. The resulting culture is a 'dead' culture, devised by the military for their own ends in which the people are denied agency. A critique of Pondaung archaeology The generals are striving for the mythological realization of 'Myanmar', and different national teams have clambered onto the bandwagon to attain privileged access to Burma's archaeological sites. As a result they provide the regime with the credibility it craves for in its archaeological and cultural propaganda. Russell Ciochon was the only western scholar to have researched the original 1979 discoveries in any detail and to have retained a focus on Burma's palaeontology in the context of developments elsewhere in Asia, in particular in Southern China, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. He is thoroughly familiar with the evidence and the debates - indeed, to a large extent he contributed to constituting it. Between 1977 and 1983 he received seven research grants specifically for work on Burma, mostly from the L.S.B. Leakey Foundation and had carried out fieldwork in Burma in 1975, 1977, 1979 and 1982, mainly in conjunction with Mandalay University. Between 1979 and 1981 he aired some theories about Burma through the mass media suggesting that Asia's earliest primates were to be found in Burma and that in this country was to be found the missing link in the evolution of primates in Asia, for Burma 'is the only place in the world that has yielded fossil evidence of an important link in the primate order'. By 1985 Ciochon openly argued, on the basis of the 1978 Mandalay University jaw bone discovery, that 'this fossil substantiates the view that southeast Asia was the center of anthropoid origins.' His conclusion was that 'extended correlations with radiometrically dated rocks indicate that the Pondaung fauna lived between 40 and 44 million years ago', and so 'the Pondaung primates of Burma pre-date the earliest known African anthropoids from the Fayum region of Egypt by at least 5 million years'. He concludes that 'therefore, when consideration is given to their morphology, geographic position, and 40-million-year-old age, Amphipithecus and Pondaungia document the earliest record of primates that were adaptively anthropoids, raising the possibility that the origin of the Anthropoidea could have been in southern Asia.' His relationship with the Burmese regime seems to have lapsed after 1982. Nevertheless, Ciochon continued to theorize about the origins of man in Burma. On 10 January 1987 he gave two lectures at the Institute of Archaeology, Hanoi, Vietnam, that clearly set on record his view that earliest primates were to be found in Burma; he addressed the Asian perspective on Hominoid Evolution and on 'The origin of anthropoids in Burma'. Apart from the earlier mentioned scholars from France and Japan, the regime is sustained in its quest by an array of scholars interested in ancient architecture and other subjects deemed important to the regime's propaganda machine. It may well be true that the earliest anthropoids originated in Burma. However, true or not, the seriousness with which the military pursues Myanmafication means, of course, that archaeology and culture have been placed, like the economy and ethnicity, and virtually everything else, into the realm of national defence. When a concept enters the realm of national defence, it must then be 'defended' and 'protected', and it becomes classified as a national secret. The most important archaeological objects were hidden from view and from all forms of inspection during the BSPP era (1962-88) because they were classed as national secrets. Today, however, these 'secrets' have been turned into national assets behind glass in the National Museum, where they supposedly engender the pride of race in the Burmese peoples and help unify the country. Dozens of museums have been built in the last decade to commemorate the regime's attempt to draw Myanmar civilization within its own controlled orbit. I am sure that the palaeoanthropologists and archaeologists involved are doing what they think is best for their discipline and their careers. It is well known that palaeoanthropologists who work in China have to tailor, to some degree, their public scientific opinions to the ideological and nationalist sensibilities of their hosts in order to retain access. However, what I would like to see is less emphasis on national teams in archaeological explorations, and a greater awareness by scholars from all disciplines of the ludicrous use to which their scientific discoveries are put. Archaeologists intent on interpreting archaeological finds from Burma should read The Politics of the Past (ed. P. Gathercole & D. Lowenthal, Unwin Hyman 1990) and Bruce Trigger's 'Alternative Archaeologies' (Man 19 1984). Above all, they should be careful not to mislead the inexperienced Burmese military officers hosting and accompanying them about the finds. Archaeology as an academic discipline is by and large a western invention. The regime, in emphasizing archaeology as the military instrument of conquering the past, has exceeded its self-acclaimed prerogative to govern by means of indigenous values alone (exponents of the democracy movements are invariably characterized as 'foreign'). Yet Burmese claims to civilization and to national unity have historically been strongly rooted in and are legitimized by mental culture; it is the instrument of mind (byama-so taya) that uproots the hard-edged selfish concepts of identity. The paradox is that the instruments of both enlightenment (mental culture) and archaeology (culture) negotiate the limits of civilization, reach out beyond the boundaries of human existence, relativize existence in time and space, and are also productive of super-beings (arya). They do so ultimately through the discovery and representation of human remains. However, that is where in my view their similarity ends, for byama-so taya and Myanmar civilization address these limits through the intermediary of Brahma in very different ways. Mental culture has its own archaeology. Ariya, rather than referring to Aryan, the Indo-European race that invaded India, in Buddhism came to mean 'the noble ones', namely those of whatever cultural or racial background who, by ridding themselves of mental impurity through spiritual practices (mental culture) will soon no longer be reborn in the cycle of life. Four stages are recognized, ranging from stream-winner, for whom there are still seven lives left, to arahant, for whom no rebirths remain. These are celebrated in the erection of pagodas built as part of the duty of charity, the first royal duty, in which saintly relics are housed and commemorated. In this pre-modern model of the polity, ariya are counter-evolutionary for their centrepoint is not culture, nation or museum, and they cannot be confined by secular powers of the military. They continuously evade capture and are beyond the grasp of the generals. The regime needs the Pondaung fossils within their grasp to become the corner-stone of a conservative nationalism that centralizes and draws firm boundaries around ethnic identity from which no one can escape. The fossils are today housed behind glass and are guarded by soldiers at the museum entrance. Mental culture unbounded has given way to archaeology imprisoned. Liberating hermit practice is giving way, once again, to insular Hermit State. The regime hopes to silence its reflexive critics by pointing at the threat of the foreign Trojan horse that only the military, as guardians of 'traditional civilization' can fight. In the process it is turning pagodas with their complex live histories into museums controlled by the military alone. This happened to the national Shwedagon Pagoda, where Aung San Suu Kyi launched her political career on 26 August 1988 when she gave her first major political speech at which she characterised the democracy struggle as 'the second national independence struggle'. Her father, too, gave his most inflammatory speeches against foreign colonial occupation at the Shwedagon. It is ironic that, with the aid of foreign archaeology, this commemoration of the Buddha's enlightenment and vibrant icon of Burmese ideas of political and personal freedom should today be turned into a museum, a representation of Burma's status as 'a prison without walls'. >???From temple relics to museum fossils The Burmese people are still deeply religious, and religious commemoration matters to them more than museums, which have in the West become such dominant institutions, absorbing palaces and churches. The museum is a new concept in Burma introduced by the regime to enhance its national and international prestige. It has built exceedingly large museums to compete with pagodas. In Pagan one of the largest structures is the new archaeological museum and Pagan is now commonly referred to as a 'veritable museum'. However, the museums seek almost exclusively to represent Burmese tradition for tourists in the hope of collecting dollars. These museums, for whatever public they are organized, local or tourist, are sheer propaganda. They do not respond to the intellectual sensibilities of the Burmese peoples and do not open their eyes to what is happening worldwide just in case they see how backward Burma is under military leadership. In Burma pagodas are vibrant and alive in local and national folklore. The regime wishes to control these places of independent worship. What better excuse than occupying and overshadowing these in the name of heritage conservation? Though it attempts to museumify the pagoda environment, it is unwilling to concede that it cannot control all aspirations of all people all of the time; people need independent institutions and practices that positively and independently stimulate their intellectual curiosity and religious sensibilities. Today, regrettably the only culture untainted by the regime's grasp is therefore mental culture, the culture produced in personal meditation that uproots the walls and partitions of the house, 'all your rafters are shattered - my mind is free from active thought.'. Behind prison bars these practices today are yielding new martyrs (azani) with fresh relics - such is the resilient politics of enlightenment. Fossils are no comfort and reproduce themselves differently in very different spheres of exchange. Meditation traditions are flourishing in Burma today, as never before. END ------------------------------------------------------------------- caption One of the many popular vipassana (insight contemplation) sessions, held in a community neighbourhood centre in which temporary yogi find momentary respite from their everyday worries by contemplating the impermanence, suffering and insubstantiality of existence. The technique is often practised by intellectuals and government reformers, and it is particularly important today among those advocating non-violent government reform and among the large population of Burma's political prisoners. This practice is held up by some in the democracy movement as one of the last hopes for political reconciliation. ------------------------------------------------------------------- ANTHROPOLOGY TODAY front cover caption: Our front cover illustrated the article on Burma by Gustaaf Houtman in this issue (p. 13); it shows both sides of a photograph amulet card depicting the Thamanya Sayadaw in his 20s, after he had spent seven rainy seasons as a fully ordained monk (i.e. in addition to novicehood) in the monastic order. Such photographs are distributed to pilgrims and commonly displayed in situations of danger. Most taxi drivers in Rangoon keep a picture of this monk on their window screen for safety. On the reverse side are his hand-prints, indicating his sanctity. Today in his 80s, the Thamanya Sayadaw (`sayadaw'='abbot'), also knownn as U Winaya, resides at the foot of Thamanya Mountain near Pa-an in the Karen State in East Burma, an area that has never been fully under control by Burmese central government. He has become a potent symbol of monastic independence from government and is visited daily by busloads of pilgrims, who may eat a plentiful vegetarian (i.e. free from killing) meal at no charge. His monastery is surrounded by about 7,000 families within a three mile radius, all of whom take care of infrastructural projects voluntarily as an act of merit, and partake of a vegetarian diet in sympathy with his emphasis on loving-kindness (metta). Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's first visit after release from her house arrest in 1995 was to this monk. She herself is said to have become vegetarian under his influence and her philosophy of democracy is also that of metta. This monk is much respected also by the military, even though his monastery has been an oasis for the poor and deprived and for refugees passing through. Further information may be found in Houtman's book Mental Culture in Burmese Crisis Politics. Caption Cartoon by Saw Ngo, 1995 from Bang! Bang! SLORC, published by Green November-32, Thailand, 1996._(Green November-32 proclaims to be the first Burmese organization devoted to human rights and environmental issues). Caption One of the 'totem emblems' or 'symbols of the clans of the national races' from the Guide to the National Museum, Yangon (Rangoon). Caption: Cartoon by Saw Ngo, 1995, commenting on the representation of Burma by a (male) general at the UN_Conference on Women, Beijing. (From Bang! Bang! SLORC, published by Green November-32, Thailand, 1996). Caption Government advertisement in Myanmar Business and Economic Weekly, July-August 1996. All publishers must bind this full or abbreviated series of slogans in every copy of all substantive publications, including newspapers, magazines and books.Dissent is often marked by 'accidentally' leaving the page uncut so that the slogans become invisible. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Gustaaf Houtman --------------------------------------------------------------------- ghoutman at tesco.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mental Culture in Burmese Crisis Politics: Aung San Suu Kyi and the National League for Democracy (Tokyo Univ. of Foreign Studies, 1999) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- read a full electronic version of this print-published book at http://homepages.tesco.net/~ghoutman/index.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From ghoutman at TESCO.NET Sat Sep 11 07:40:49 1999 From: ghoutman at TESCO.NET (Gustaaf Houtman) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 99 08:40:49 +0100 Subject: Burma: Buddhism & archaeology (1/2) Message-ID: <161227052171.23782.3102159287260512630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ANTHROPOLOGY TODAY: `REMAKING MYANMAR AND HUMAN ORIGINS' - PART 1/2 an account of the role of pagoda relics and museum fossils in SLORC-SPDC concepts of nation-building ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (c) Royal Anthropological Institute 1999 Vol 15, No 4, August 1999, pp 13-19. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- by Gustaaf Houtman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [This article is a development of pages 142-47 in Gustaaf Houtman's MENTAL CULTURE IN BURMESE CRISIS POLITICS: AUNG SAN SUU KYI AND THE NATIONAL LEAGUE FOR DEMOCRACY, which was published in March 1999 as monograph no. 33 of the Institute for the Study of Languages and Cultures of Asia and Africa, Tokyo University of Foreign Studies. In the book, full references are given. The book is - as is common with publications from Japanese university presses - distributed free of charge to selected libraries, journals and scholars. It is also available for free downloading from the Internet http://homepages.tesco.net/~ghoutman/index.htm. Bibliographic references have been omitted from this article as they can easily be found on the Internet site. Dr Houtman was the first Leach/RAI_Fellow in Social Anthropology at the University of Manchester, 1991-92, and has been closely involved with ANTHROPOLOGY_TODAY_since its foundation in 1985, with occasional absences to concentrate on his own research.] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In 1988, the Burma Socialist Programme Party, built up after General Ne Win's 1962 coup, unravelled under popular protest. General Ne Win resigned and the experiment with military socialism lasting over a quarter century was over. In May 1990 democratic elections were held, in which the National League for Democracy, co-founded by Aung San Suu Kyi, overwhelmingly won the elections. However, by early 1991 it became clear that the military was in no hurry to hand over the instruments of government, for they gradually routinized themselves from a temporary committee running the country into a 'government'. Indeed, the generals, initially temporarily 'caring' for ministries until a legitimate government would be in place, today call themselves 'Ministers', and General Than Shwe, Chairman of the State Peace and Development Council and Minister of Defence, calls himself today 'Prime Minister'. The regime systematically intimidates what it considers 'the opposition' with house arrest and imprisonment and has closed down for the best part of the last decade the entire educational system, including even primary schools, for fear of protests. This combined with forced labour on a large scale and a severe refugee problem with its neighbours, resulted in the regime's international reputation sinking until its infamy triggered the European and American economic and political boycotts around 199[5]. The 1997-98 Asian financial crisis scared many of its Asian backers. Though it was drawn within the orbit of ASEAN in 1997, the Indonesian democratic elections has deprived it of its greatest supporter within ASEAN. Furthermore, the Nigerian democratic elections deprived it of one of its principal role models. It retains a powerful ally in China, but internationally Burma is today regarded as a pariah regime sometimes compared to Iraq. Here I examine two notable features of this regime. Desperate for national and international recognition, it began the large-scale renovation and construction of pagodas, on the one hand, and museums, palaces and ancient monasteries on the other. These constructions have taken place on a scale and with a rapidity never before witnessed in the history of Southeast Asia. It has decided to renovate and rebuild all the thousands of pagodas in the 11th century capital Pagan. It is furthermore committing enormous funds to pagodas all over the country. At least two dozen new museums have been built. These house ancient heritage, but also the history of the army and the Pondaung fossils, that it claims represent the oldest humanoids of the world. The latter, it hopes, places the Myanmar people on the world's map as the oldest civilization. It also has rebuilt all ancient palaces in the ancient capitals. As I hope to show, these are vital elements at the heart of the regime's 'new' ideology I have dubbed 'Myanmafication', after their decision to rename the country Myanmar in 1989. Building a house One of the regime's journalists explained that 'Myanmar resembled a house that tumbled down. The Tatmadaw [army] had to pick up the pieces and build a new one.' Indeed, General Saw Maung himself asserted that during the 1988 unrest 'the State Machinery had stopped functioning' and in the aftermath 'it is just like building a country from scratch'. A new house had to be built, and since 1989 museum building and the museumification of pagodas have become indispensable activities for the regime. However, there is much evidence that, given their Buddhist tradition, freethinking people in Burma have no desire to live in this national house. As the Buddha said, `I have passed in ignorance through a cycle of many rebirths, seeking the builder of the house. Continuous rebirth is a painful thing. But now, housebuilder, I have found you out. You will not build me a house again. ... All your rafters are broken, your ridge-pole shattered. My mind is free from active thought, and has made an end of craving.' These two quotations sum up two contrasting approaches to the institutionalization of tradition; the one compartmentalizes and the other does not, since compartments are seen as merely a product of ignorance. The latter view is essentially expounded by Aung San Suu Kyi in her concept of the 'spiritual revolution'. Taking the mind as its centrepoint, it contrasts universalist mental culture with the bounded material cultural stance of the military. History and archaeology The Burmese term for history is literally 'pagoda history' (thamaing). Museums and pagodas both deal with history. Indeed, they embody history. However, though surrounding often similar objects (e.g. bones), the radically different circumstances and reasons for finding and displaying these mean that they are conceived very differently (fossils vs. relics). In short, they tell very different kinds of history. Burma's military regime attaches much importance to history. The State Peace and Development Council (SPDC), or, as they were formerly called (until 1997), the State Law and Order Restoration Council (SLORC), sees itself playing a vital and honourable role in the history of the country. The late General Saw Maung, one of the current regime's founders, commented in 1990 that if American culture is 'very recent . only 200 years old', Myanmar history 'shows our culture has been here for tens of thousands of years'. There was a great 'difference' between Burma and the rest of the world, and Burma had rubies and real jade that no one else had, and the Burmese did not need air conditioning or winter coats. Such radically different and unique ancient culture could not permit itself to be enslaved by foreigners yet again. SLORC inevitably had to show some spectacular reason that it was a legitimate government based on 'old' culture. It could only render this believable, of course, with proof. In the opinion of SPDC Chairman General Than Shwe the creation of Myanmar represents not so much fostering respect for the diversity of cultures within the union, but 'revitalization of a civilization'. Civilization, as we know the concept from evolutionary anthropologists at the turn of this century, meant human beings historically emanating from a single family, hierarchically ordered depending on their ability to shake off nature through their cultural advances. This is a convenient singular concept, a shorthand for a unified people all related to a single source, but some of whom are in greater need for civilization, and therefore 'development', than others. Today's military rhetoric of 'development' and 'modernization' goes hand in hand with this institutionalisation of the past and with archaeology as the instrument for recovering the past. The military aims to be at the forefront at recovering the past in all these ways. Burmese politicians sometimes express the origins of their political system, and of political, social and religious order, in terms of the Buddhist genesis myth. In this myth the Brahmas, the entirely spiritual and meditating celestial deities came to earth only to be transformed into the first material human beings of flesh and blood as the result of partaking of earthly material food. Evacuation of human waste brought about gender differentiation and the ideas of shame and property. Having lost their radiance, society deteriorated due to greed to the extent that the first president and the first judge had to be elected to keep order. In the origin myth, political and legal office is thus devised to compensate for a lack of meditation. However, ethnic and national identity are also bound up with this misty view of the past. The popular etymology of both Burma and Myanmar is sometimes brought back to Brahma. Furthermore, political philosophy is closely bound up with it. For example, U Nu defined his socialism this way, and the social meditation practices that transcend embodiment and return to the spiritual disembodied Brahma (byama-so taya, brahma-vihara) have been held up as ideal Burmese behaviour. Hitherto, entertaining such remote origins at only the level of myth and exhortation to practice social meditation (of loving-kindness and compassion) used to satisfy demands for an ethnic identity. The regime, however, concerned with Myanmar as a physical, strictly bounded, unity rather than a product of the mind, is beginning to formulate the origination of humanity along a very different track based on physical archaeological evidence. It is impatient with mere 'ideas' about spiritual origination in the texts over which it feels it has insufficient control. It seeks to found the Myanmar State not on the transformation of human beings through mental culture and spiritual attainment, as Aung San and early nationalists conceived it, and as even General Ne Win expounded in his socialist ideology, but is beginning to take an interest in transforming the status of Myanmar visibly in the eyes of the world, by locating, no less, actual proof of the origins of all mankind in Burma itself. If successful, it would, of course, represent a coup de gr?ce for the generals. Not only would their censorship have succeeded in extending 'Myanmar' as the preferred mode of self-identification right across the English speaking world (the country was renamed Myanmar in languages other than Burmese in May 1989), but they would be able to claim that the rest of the world (including its severest critics) is inferior and less civilized in the family of man. The generals are subconsciously still in pursuit of the etymological conjunction between Burma-Myanmar and the superior Brahma deities at the beginning of the world. In Burma mental culture has fulfiled this association perfectly adequately so far, and the attainments of the four stages of sainthood (ariya) were attributed to mental culture in the here and now backed up by mental perfections attained over countless lives. Burmese ideas about political leadership continues to demand encounters with these saints, and their commemoration by building pagodas and praying for the attainment of nibbana. Today, however, the generals go beyond pagoda building in the belief that culture must be unearthed by collecting physical archaeological evidence that must be housed in museums (and to some extent pagodas) placed under their control. In short, the regime looks for a more substantive and tangible impersonal pillar than the mind to tie their Myanmar mandala to. Through this archaeological quest it hopes to restore to Myanmar its most impressive achievements and to locate the oldest forms of human life within its boundaries. The regime sums up its 'culture and traditions' as follows: `Myanmar's existence dates back to many centuries where under the rule of Myanmar kings and its own culture and traditions, civilization flourished. As part of the restoration of the rich cultural heritage of Myanmar, palaces and related edifices of Myanmar kings have been carefully excavated and renovated or reconstructed to their original designs. These magnificent structures clearly depict the once rich and affluent civilization of the Myanmar people. Moreover, in the Pon-Taung-Pon-Nyar region of central Myanmar, recent discoveries of some primate fossils dating back to some 40 million years may qualify Myanmar as the region where mankind originated. The findings, as recent as 13 April 1997, however, clearly indicate the existence of Myanmar culture and traditions since time immemorial.' (Website, Myanmar Today, http://www.myanmar.com) I have described the regime's 'Myanmafication' projects as the attempt, since 1989, to attain to national unity without appealing to martyr and national hero Aung San. The regime's 'Aung San amnesia' was hastened when Aung San was reclaimed for the democracy movement by his daughter, Aung San Suu Kyi. If Aung San and Aung San Suu Kyi followed Burmese tradition by advocating universal and boundless loving-kindness meditation (metta) as a crucial ingredient to national harmony, the current military aims for a very different kind of national unity known as 'national reconsolidation'. In this, archaeology has become an indispensable instrument to localise and regionalise a substantively superior form of national identity. By these means the regime hopes to conquer prehistory and unify the 135 ethnic groups under the family umbrella now referred to as 'Myanmar culture'. It is of such great importance that the more significant archaeological finds require nothing less than the Defence Services Intelligence Unit, namely the Office of Strategic Studies (OSS), which currently governs Burma under General Khin Nyunt, also Secretary 1 of the SPDC and de facto head of government. In this Myanmafication programme the archaeology and palaeoanthropology of Myanmar fall within the realms of national defence. National archaeology teams Though the story has earlier beginnings, the contemporary evaluation of the Pondaung fossils as a public national treasure began in January 1997 when General Khin Nyunt learnt about them after an announcement of a discovery of a French team of the earliest primate fossils extant in Southern Thailand. He learnt that Burma also had very rare fossils from Pondaung, north west of Mandalay, which had been discovered in 1978 by expeditions led by U Ba Maw and U Thaw Tint, members of the geology department of Mandalay University. The potential of Pondaung had first been discovered as early as 1914 by a team from the Geological Survey of India. Both teams referred to the discoveries as Pondaungia. After national independence archaeology was not considered a great priority, and the 1978 discoveries had even been suppressed by the Ne Win military regime. However, theories had been floated that these included fossils of ancient higher primates and, with the regime's reputation at a low ebb, General Khin Nyunt decided that these studies should be followed up, and on 12 February 1997 a round table discussion was held on the fossils at the National Museum with six academics. Two days later, Khin Nyunt directed his Office of Strategic Studies [OSS] and geologists of the Ministry of Education to explore and search for fossilized remains in Pondaung. By the end of February, during meetings between the Ministries of Education and Defence at the OSS, the (Myanmar) Fossil Exploration Team was put together, including members of the OSS for 'full logistic support' and geologists from the Geology Department. Colonel Than Tun of the OSS was appointed leader of the Expedition. General Khin Nyunt ordered his team to go out on 'mission' and to 'find evidence . since it would greatly enhance the stature of the country in the world' as follows: `Secretary 1, and Chief of the Office of Strategic Studies, Lieutenant General Khin Nyunt, met the members of the Expedition Team at the Dagon Yeiktha of the Ministry of Defence at 1000 hours on 8 March, 1997 to give necessary guidance and counsel. At the meeting, Lieutenant General Khin Nyunt stated that it was necessary to search for and uncover further incontrovertible evidence that the fossilized remains of higher primates found in Myanmar could be dated as being 40 million years old, in order to advance the studies into man's origins. The joint expedition team of the Ministry of Defence and the geologists of the Ministry of Education, he said, were being dispatched to search, explore and find such evidence. He emphasized the fact that the mission of this team about to embark on this venture was of vital importance since it would greatly enhance the stature of the country in the world. He therefore urged the scholars to make every endeavour for the success of the mission.' ('The Pondaung Fossil Expedition'. Myanmar Perspectives, May 1998) Between 9 March and 21 April 1997 numerous visits were made to a number of sites. Excitement mounted as finds were made including an elephant's tusk, about which it is said that 'it is very rare and an exception to find such a complete fossilized tusk. Few countries can claim that they have such a priceless exhibit for progeny. That is why it is a very proud occasion for those who have had the privilege to help the country acclaim such honour.' On 11 May, the team's geologists collected a variety of fossils, including those of primates, namely the Pondaungia Amphipithecus Mogaungensis, the Amphipithecus Bahensis, and other valuable specimens. They were presented to a gathering of government officials, scholars and media personnel, at the Defence Forces Guest House in Rangoon. On this occasion General Khin Nyunt gave the keynote speech alluding to the discovery as proof that human life and civilization began in Burma. The report stated that the recent discoveries illustrated the origins of the great Burmese nationality and the superiority of Burmese culture. The report went on to say that should the academics be able to prove the claims, then Burmese people could definitely say that 'culture began in Myanmar.' It was reported that 'analyses reveal that the latest find belongs to the genus of the previously discovered remains of Amphipithecus primate . The new find may be classified as a new species and it is named Amphipithecus Bahensis by the exploration teams because it was discovered from a site near Bahin Village, Myaing Township'. It was also stressed in the reports that it was army officers who had heroically discovered some of the vital human remains in the fossil jigsaw, for 'the left lower jaw was discovered by Captain Bo Bo of the Office of Strategic Studies and Lance Corporal Ohn Hlaing of No. 252 Regiment.' International validation The military wished to be seen at the cutting edge of archaeology discovery. However, they had no clue how to interpret the evidence, and the next step was to invite foreign researchers to make sense of and legitimize these discoveries. At this stage, entered palaeontologist of Iowa University Dr Russell L. Ciochon, staff of the Museum of Paleontology of California University, and Dr Patricia Holroyd, who studied the fossil specimens at the National Museum, Rangoon, between 20 October and 1 November 1997. Dr Ciochon had joined the early 1978 Mandalay University team and was familiar with the debates. He had also made visits in 1982 and 1996, but he was ejected because his visit was unauthorized. The regime's change of mind meant that he was reported 'highly gratified' at the leaders' keen interest and their interest in facilitating the study of primate fossils. He was pleased at being invited to continue his studies. The American fossil exploration team then made a field trip to Pondaung with the Burmese team between 24 December 1997 and 14 January 1998. The Americans 'were much gratified at the briefing they were given, supported by such detailed records and were highly impressed at the interest shown, and the support and encouragement given by the Myanmar Government leaders.' Further archaeological discoveries were made after 30 January 1998. A third field survey was undertaken by the Myanmar-France Pondaung Fossils Expedition, a team made up between the original Burmese team and a group of French palaeontologists, including Jean Jacques Jaeger (persistently misspelled in the Burmese media as Jacger) of France's Montpellier University, St?phane Ducrocq, Rose Marie Ducrocq, Mouloud Bennami of Morocco, and Yaowalak Chaimanee (Department of Mineral Resources) of Thailand. The team arrived in Rangoon on 30 March, met the Burmese team on 31 March at the No. 2 Defence Services Guest House, and visited the National Museum to inspect the fossils. They then carried out an expedition between 1-20 April 1998. When they assessed the finds displayed in the National Museum they concluded that these 'may belong to higher anthropoid primate[s] and to the Eocene, which is about 40 million years back', but somewhat disappointingly, they also said that they would need further evidence 'to determine the origin of man and that further study need be made'. The Myanmar-France Pondaung Fossils Expedition Team held a press conference in conjunction with military intelligence sponsored by the OSS at the Defence Services Guesthouse. Yet a fourth academic team - the Joint Myanmar-Japan Pondaung Fossil Expedition Team - involved Japanese scholars from the Primate Research Institute of Kyoto University. This team consisted of Professor Dr Nobuo Shigehara and Assistant Professor Masanaru Takai, who carried out studies on the primate and other fossils at the National Museum between 19-25 April 1998 but later returned for a field survey between 6-20 November 1998. (to be continued in Part 2/2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Gustaaf Houtman ghoutman at tesco.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mental Culture in Burmese Crisis Politics: Aung San Suu Kyi and the National League for Democracy (Tokyo Univ. of Foreign Studies, 1999) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- read a full electronic version of this print-published book at http://homepages.tesco.net/~ghoutman/index.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sat Sep 11 20:10:05 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 99 13:10:05 -0700 Subject: civilizational ardour Message-ID: <161227052182.23782.5379627265742305890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Swaminathan M writes : > > >Too much is claimed for the hypothesis of how "civilization" > >was brought to Tamils, etc., The scholarly consensus is that Aryan > >homeland is not India itself. Also, classical sangam texts have no > >contemporaneous counterpart in sanskrit. > > nanda candran rplies: > If classical Sangam age is between anywhere 500 BC to 500 AD, it is the age > of the most vigorous philosophical development in Samskrutam literature. It > was the age of the later Upanishads, the Buddha, Mahavira, the Astika and > the nAstika schools. Where is the basis for your claim? > Exactly. Among the philosophical works like Upanishads, etc., we do not find a body of lit. paralleling Sangam works. The following lines have nothing to do with my original posting. Regards, SM > Some poor folk in Tamil Nadu still sacrifice animals to Gods, drink liquor > when somebody dies and dance and sing on the streets following the corpse to > the graveyard. > > Do 'upper caste' Tamils do that? I don't think racially they're different > from the poor Tamils and have a lot in common in culture and language with > the poor Tamils. > > So why are they different? And whose is the original culture? > > Did the poor folk descend in terms of culture or did the richer folk ascend? > And how so? And given the claims of the "secular" nature of > dravidian culture why is there such a discrepancy in the culture between the > same people, at all? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 11 20:23:57 1999 From: namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM (Namrata Bose) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 99 13:23:57 -0700 Subject: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. Message-ID: <161227052183.23782.14435723813134984724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That is unfortunate. I think that the Indian Govt. is retaliating against the decision of American Federal government to prevent Indian scientists and engineers from attending academic meetings or do research in their country after the Pokhran blasts. Readers must note that Justice A. G. Noorani was arrested by the government of India more than 2 decades ago for suspected espionage for Pakistan. Of course this fact is well know to all Indians, except his blind followers like Comrade N. Ram who is the editor of newspaper 'The Hindu' and also the Frontline magazine I read the article by Rajaram and Zydenbos whose links were given by Zydenbos. I am shocked by the levels to which Zydenbos can stoop to deny the demeaning statements he levelled. The meaning of his words is so clear. I wonder if such articles were written by Zydenbos when 42 temples were destroyed in Kashmir or 2 dozen Hindu shrines were descecrated by Christians at Dangs (according to the Gandhians of that area) or when 450 temples were destroyed in India after December 6, 1992***200 in Bangladesh, 22 in UK and 100 in Pakistan according to BBC. If not, then he was unfair. I do not care what Mian Abbas says about me. My intention was to expose his agendas and that is done now. I am against all persecutions, but it is unfair to put the blaming finger to Hindus. And of course I am a champion of women rights. The list moderator has banned debates on AIT or I would have proved to members that Witzel's replies to my post were white lies. Namrata >From: Robert Zydenbos >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. >Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:53:27 +0530 > >This is forwarded from the RISA-L. > >------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >Date sent: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 05:07:25 -0700 (PDT) >Send reply to: risa-l at lists.acusd.edu >Subject: Banning Foreign Scholars in India. > >Economic and Political Weekly, Vol XXXIV, No 30 (July 24, 1999): 2048-2049 > >Civil Liberties >Banning Foreign Scholars by A G Noorani > >By a recent government order a foreign national intending to attend >workshop >seminars has to seek clearance from the home ministry. This order is an >assault on the autonomy of Indian universities, already under stress. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 11 23:54:35 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 99 16:54:35 -0700 Subject: Is ananda an emotion? Message-ID: <161227052186.23782.16174878383837014593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Harsha V. Dehejia" wrote: >Fellow Indologoists: > >In a recent seminar there was heated discussion whether ananda (bliss) is a >state of being or is it an exalted human emotion? The speaker argued that >ananda is not an emotion. Any thoughts? > Perhaps the most extensive discussions of Ananda are found in the vedAnta schools. Check the commentaries of various authors on brahmasUtra 1. 1. 12-19, bRhadAraNyaka upanishad 3. 9. 28 and taittirIya upanishad 2. 1-5. Also see maNDana miSra's brahmasiddhi 1. 2-6, where Ananda as an experience (na saMvedyaH karmatva abhAvAt) is distinguished from Ananda as a state of being that is self-luminous (na ca asaMvedyaH svaprakASatvAt). For a nyAya-vaiSeshika perspective, see vAtsyAyana's nyAyabhUshaNa, which criticizes an equation of the state of liberation with an experience of Ananda. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Sep 12 01:43:35 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 99 18:43:35 -0700 Subject: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. Message-ID: <161227052188.23782.9489685977504747768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought contemporary politics and government policies were to be avoided on this list, but as it has already been raised, here goes. Following the recent nuclear tests, Indian scientists were denied visas to visit Europe and the USA. Many of those already working in foreign lands were told to return to India, leaving their equipment and notes behind. And it is an open secret where most of the funds of the better funded non-governmental organizations (NGOs) come from. Obviously, the Indian government is retaliating, in its own clumsy way. I have long since given up expecting any long range perspective from Indian journalists, whether they are in Arun Shourie's camp or A. G. Noorani's camp or somewhere else. I would, however, expect those in academia to be better in this regard. Do not lose sight of the fact that for all its ancientness, India is still only 52 years old as a democracy. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Sep 12 00:20:01 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 99 00:20:01 +0000 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052189.23782.18138984450494873302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU asked: > > > Could he just have been stating a simple fact, > > i.e., that ceGkuTTuvan2 was mATalan2's king, > > rather than "articulating a case of linguistic > > nationalism"? > > No, because mATalan2's king is a Chola while ceGkuTTuvan2 is a Chera king. > The conversation takes place on the bank of the river gaGgA. Does standing and speaking on the bank of Ganga make it Tamil nationalism ? Is taking pride or fondness in your spoken/family/ regional tongue enough to constitute nationalism. The "mula-sthana" has been always a matter of identity for pretwentienth century Indians. The mulasthaana , caste or gotra, and occupational reference were the constituents of an Indian name till recently. Nationalism on the other hand is an urge to demarcate a state on the basis of language which is then used for everkind of thng by its inhabitants. It is an obsession with monolingualism that tends to use that language for everthing from buying a beetle leaf to philosophical discourse. This phenomenon begins with print in Europe and came to India in the 19th century. Before that Indians were highly multulingual, using different languages for different things and for addressing different social classes. If we call Cilapaddikaram is a work of Tamil nationalism, then Tulsidas's Ramayana is a work of Avadhii nationalism, Surdas's Bhramargit of Brija nationalism (both works where great affection is revealed for the topography) and Meghaduta of ??? Brahmin/Aryan-ism, I guess, because it is sanskrit and being in sanskrit keeps it only brahmin eventhough it is a great example of topographical aesthetics. Bharat Gupt From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Sat Sep 11 19:23:27 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 99 00:53:27 +0530 Subject: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. Message-ID: <161227052179.23782.3104335716021007993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is forwarded from the RISA-L. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 05:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Send reply to: risa-l at lists.acusd.edu Subject: Banning Foreign Scholars in India. Economic and Political Weekly, Vol XXXIV, No 30 (July 24, 1999): 2048-2049 Civil Liberties Banning Foreign Scholars by A G Noorani By a recent government order a foreign national intending to attend workshop seminars has to seek clearance from the home ministry. This order is an assault on the autonomy of Indian universities, already under stress. It bagan in the 1970s when T N Kaul was ambassador to the US. There was a sharp decline in the grant of visas to American scholars to visit India. Coinciding as it did with the US resumption of links with China, it led to a significant diminution of interest in India. Be it said to the credit of American academia that it was sharply critical of the Nixon-Kissinger policy on Bangladesh. If a restrictive visa policy marked Phase I, in the next phase, a decade later, new curbs were put on the appointment of foreign nationals in Indian universities. Devsagar Singh's report in Indian Express of June 7, 1985 provided the details: "The government of India has put new restrictions on the appointment of foreign nationals in Indian universities, their research programme and movement into sensitive areas. All the universities have been asked to keep a strict vigil on their activities and implement the guidelines of the government strictly". He amplified: "Appointments of foreign nationals could be made only in very exceptional circumstances after obtaining prior clearance of the government... Even for inviting a foreign scholar as visiting professor, universities will now be required to obtain prior permission of the government." Nor is this all. "In case a university proposes to organise an international seminar or symposium, it will have to furnish to the government a detailed note on the theme of the conference, level of participation, name of the countries and their scholars as also the source of funding. The government will have the right to refuse permission." Subjects like defence, "themes which are politically sensitive" and the like are barred as subjects for research. If foreigners come on a tourist visa they must not conduct research. Lastly,"foreign scholars have also been debarred from delivering any lecture or talk on topics of controversial nature". I had then remarked in this column: "Presumably a judge of the US Supreme Court visiting India will not be allowed to deliver a talk explaining the Bakke case, on positive discrimination in favour of the Blacks and its aftermath because it might have a bearing on the 'politically sensitive' issue of reservations. Nor may he speak on federal-state relations - also a 'politically sensitive' issue. So much for the casual solitary lecture - what to speak of a series of lectures sponsored by an endowment or a university. Rise further in this ladder of state control of knowledge and you find curbs on seminars, or invitation to or appointment of foreign scholars"... that has now come to pass as a report in The Hindu of June 24, 1999 shows. It bears quotation in extenso: In a surprise move, the government has made it 'mandatory' for all foreign nationals intending to participate in workshops and seminars organised by voluntary organisations in the country to take clearance from the Union home ministry. Though there is no written rule or guideline, the government has started following this system recently setting up a new precedent. This pertains to seminars and workshops organised by voluntary organisations. Also, the voluntary organisations would have to take permission from the ministry of external afairs to organise such a conference where there are foreign participants. Recently, three of the international participants to the 11th Annual Johns Hopkins International Philanthropy Fellows Conference on Building Civil Society being organised by the Development Support Initiative, Bangalore, from July 3-9 got a fax that they will not be given visas. The three participants were told by the Indian High Commission in London that they should first get clearance from the home ministry. The High Commission informed them that "all conferences to do with the voluntary sector and which appear to be government/politically sensitive has to get clearance for participants from abroad". Several government officials, members from the corporate sector and the media are expected to participate in the conference to be held in Bangalore. This matter was brought to the notice of the Voluntary Action Network India (VANI) which expressed shock and surprise at the home ministry setting up the new precedent of foreign participants having to take clearance from it for attending workshops and seminars organised by NGOs in the country. VANI expressed surprise that while thousands of foreign tourists are coming to India without much problems and NRIs are getting permanent visas after paying certain amount of money, the government has started a new precedent to get special clearance from the home ministry for participants at conferences organised by the voluntary sector... The officials of the home ministry failed to give any explanation behind this move. Indian academia is not only a house divided but one of whose major sections is possessed of chauvinism while another pays court to the Congress (I) by sheer force of habit, presumably. What to speak of curbs on foreigners, the academia has overlooked Sonia Gandhi's untenable claims to copyright in the Nehru-Indira Gandhi papers which properly belong to the Union of India as trustees for the nation (Vide the writer's article 'State Property: The Status of Official Documents', Frontline, August 8, 1997). The latest order is not only a curb on foreign academies but, above all, an assault on the autonomy of Indian universities, NGOs and think-tanks - already under stress and on the rights of the Indian citizen. As has been pointed out in this column earlier the fundamental right to freedom of speech and expression (Article 19(1)(a) of the Constitution) necessarily implies that the citizen is entitled to receive information - electronically, in print and orally ('Right to Receive Foreign Telecasts', EPW April 13, 1991). The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly that the right to know flows from the right to speak; is "derived from the concept of freedom of speech" (vide Raj Narain's case AIR 1975 SC 865), Maneka Gandhi's case AIR 1978 597 and S P Gupta's case AIR 1981 SC 149). India has ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Article 19(2) of the Covenant says explicitly that the right to freedom of expression "shall include freedom to seek, receive and import information and ideas of all kind, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice". India is obligated under the Covenant to submit periodic reports for examination by the Human Rights Committee on its observance of the rights. Successive attorneys-general of India have been grilled by experts on the committee. It is true that the courts allow the government considerable latitude in matters of national security and in the admission and expulsion of foreigners. But the onus is on the state to establish that the acts are so related. The courts will not scrutinise the adequacy of the evidence. However, if the order is shown to be mala fide or an abuse of power it will be struck down. Refusal of visa to a foreign national invited to participate in a conference or seminar in India is very much open to challenge in the courts if it is demonstrated to be an attempt to stifle dissent, not the foreigners dissent so much as their Indian hosts' right to hear a viewpoint the government of India finds distasteful. The Indian citizen's rights do not depend on the tastes of the ministers or bureaucrats. In Kleindienst vs Mandel (1972) 408 US 753, the US Supreme Court upheld the attorney general, Richard Kleindienst's refusal of a visa for Ernest Mandel, a Belgian journalist and Marxist theoretician to participate in an academic conference sponsored by Americans. The court split 6-3. The attorney-general refused to grant a waiver under the Immigration and Nationality Act, 1952 - as is required for advocates of communist doctrine - to make Ernest Mandel eligible for a visa to the US. A Belgian citizen, Mandel, is a scholar, a professional journalist and an avowed Marxist revolutionary. The government claimed that he had abused opportunities afforded to him during an earlier visit. Mandel and several American academics sued the attorney-general alleging violation of their right to hear him and engage him in a free and open academic exchange. It turned, however, on the special facts of the case - the attorney-general's charge of past abuse. The majority held this was bona fide exercise of discretion and did not consider the other issues. Imagine its reaction to a blanket ban. Even so Justices Douglas, Marshall and Brennan dissented. More, even the majority rejected the government's plea that Mandel's books were available, after all. "This argument overlooks what may be particular qualities inherent in sustained face-to-face debate, discussion and questioning", the majority opined. It is unlikely that our Supreme Court would uphold such a ban and a crying shame if it ever did. ______________________________________________________________________ END OF TEXT From gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Sun Sep 12 14:22:10 1999 From: gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Gail Coelho) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 99 09:22:10 -0500 Subject: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. In-Reply-To: <199909112002.BAA09319@mbg.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227052191.23782.5905202245425831089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for forwarding that message to the list. I think Academicians in India should do something about these restrictions on work by foreign scholars in India, especially because the restrictions harm the quality of Indian academics itself. But the question is what can we do about it? Any ideas? Gail Coelho At 12:53 AM 9/12/99 +0530, you wrote: >This is forwarded from the RISA-L. > >------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >Date sent: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 05:07:25 -0700 (PDT) >Send reply to: risa-l at lists.acusd.edu >Subject: Banning Foreign Scholars in India. > >Economic and Political Weekly, Vol XXXIV, No 30 (July 24, 1999): 2048-2049 > >Civil Liberties >Banning Foreign Scholars by A G Noorani > >By a recent government order a foreign national intending to attend workshop >seminars has to seek clearance from the home ministry. This order is an >assault on the autonomy of Indian universities, already under stress. > >It bagan in the 1970s when T N Kaul was ambassador to the US. There was a >sharp decline in the grant of visas to American scholars to visit India. >Coinciding as it did with the US resumption of links with China, it led to a >significant diminution of interest in India. Be it said to the credit of >American academia that it was sharply critical of the Nixon-Kissinger policy >on Bangladesh. > >If a restrictive visa policy marked Phase I, in the next phase, a decade >later, new curbs were put on the appointment of foreign nationals in Indian >universities. Devsagar Singh's report in Indian Express of June 7, 1985 >provided the details: "The government of India has put new restrictions on >the appointment of foreign nationals in Indian universities, their research >programme and movement into sensitive areas. All the universities have been >asked to keep a strict vigil on their activities and implement the >guidelines of the government strictly". He amplified: "Appointments of >foreign nationals could be made only in very exceptional circumstances after >obtaining prior clearance of the government... Even for inviting a foreign >scholar as visiting professor, universities will now be required to obtain >prior permission of the government." > >Nor is this all. "In case a university proposes to organise an international >seminar or symposium, it will have to furnish to the government a detailed >note on the theme of the conference, level of participation, name of the >countries and their scholars as also the source of funding. The government >will have the right to refuse permission." Subjects like defence, "themes >which are politically sensitive" and the like are barred as subjects for >research. If foreigners come on a tourist visa they must not conduct >research. Lastly,"foreign scholars have also been debarred from delivering >any lecture or talk on topics of controversial nature". > >I had then remarked in this column: "Presumably a judge of the US Supreme >Court visiting India will not be allowed to deliver a talk explaining the >Bakke case, on positive discrimination in favour of the Blacks and its >aftermath because it might have a bearing on the 'politically sensitive' >issue of reservations. Nor may he speak on federal-state relations - also a >'politically sensitive' issue. > >So much for the casual solitary lecture - what to speak of a series of >lectures sponsored by an endowment or a university. Rise further in this >ladder of state control of knowledge and you find curbs on seminars, or >invitation to or appointment of foreign scholars"... that has now come to >pass as a report in The Hindu of June 24, 1999 shows. It bears quotation in >extenso: In a surprise move, the government has made it 'mandatory' for all >foreign nationals intending to participate in workshops and seminars >organised by voluntary organisations in the country to take clearance from >the Union home ministry. > >Though there is no written rule or guideline, the government has started >following this system recently setting up a new precedent. This pertains to >seminars and workshops organised by voluntary organisations. Also, the >voluntary organisations would have to take permission from the ministry of >external afairs to organise such a conference where there are foreign >participants. > >Recently, three of the international participants to the 11th Annual Johns >Hopkins International Philanthropy Fellows Conference on Building Civil >Society being organised by the Development Support Initiative, Bangalore, >from July 3-9 got a fax that they will not be given visas. The three >participants were told by the Indian High Commission in London that they >should first get clearance from the home ministry. The High Commission >informed them that "all conferences to do with the voluntary sector and >which appear to be government/politically sensitive has to get clearance for >participants from abroad". > >Several government officials, members from the corporate sector and the >media are expected to participate in the conference to be held in Bangalore. >This matter was brought to the notice of the Voluntary Action Network India >(VANI) which expressed shock and surprise at the home ministry setting up >the new precedent of foreign participants having to take clearance from it >for attending workshops and seminars organised by NGOs in the country. VANI >expressed surprise that while thousands of foreign tourists are coming to >India without much problems and NRIs are getting permanent visas after >paying certain amount of money, the government has started a new precedent >to get special clearance from the home ministry for participants at >conferences organised by the voluntary sector... The officials of the home >ministry failed to give any explanation behind this move. >Indian academia is not only a house divided but one of whose major sections >is possessed of chauvinism while another pays court to the Congress (I) by >sheer force of habit, presumably. What to speak of curbs on foreigners, the >academia has overlooked Sonia Gandhi's untenable claims to copyright in the >Nehru-Indira Gandhi papers which properly belong to the Union of India as >trustees for the nation (Vide the writer's article 'State Property: The >Status of Official Documents', Frontline, August 8, 1997). > >The latest order is not only a curb on foreign academies but, above all, an >assault on the autonomy of Indian universities, NGOs and think-tanks - >already under stress and on the rights of the Indian citizen. As has been >pointed out in this column earlier the fundamental right to freedom of >speech and expression (Article 19(1)(a) of the Constitution) necessarily >implies that the citizen is entitled to receive information - >electronically, in print and orally ('Right to Receive Foreign Telecasts', >EPW April 13, 1991). The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly that the right >to know flows from the right to speak; is "derived from the concept of >freedom of speech" (vide Raj Narain's case AIR 1975 SC 865), Maneka Gandhi's >case AIR 1978 597 and S P Gupta's case AIR 1981 SC 149). > >India has ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. >Article 19(2) of the Covenant says explicitly that the right to freedom of >expression "shall include freedom to seek, receive and import information >and ideas of all kind, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or >in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice". >India is obligated under the Covenant to submit periodic reports for >examination by the Human Rights Committee on its observance of the rights. >Successive attorneys-general of India have been grilled by experts on the >committee. > >It is true that the courts allow the government considerable latitude in >matters of national security and in the admission and expulsion of >foreigners. But the onus is on the state to establish that the acts are so >related. The courts will not scrutinise the adequacy of the evidence. >However, if the order is shown to be mala fide or an abuse of power it will >be struck down. Refusal of visa to a foreign national invited to participate >in a conference or seminar in India is very much open to challenge in the >courts if it is demonstrated to be an attempt to stifle dissent, not the >foreigners dissent so much as their Indian hosts' right to hear a viewpoint >the government of India finds distasteful. The Indian citizen's rights do >not depend on the tastes of the ministers or bureaucrats. > >In Kleindienst vs Mandel (1972) 408 US 753, the US Supreme Court upheld the >attorney general, Richard Kleindienst's refusal of a visa for Ernest Mandel, >a Belgian journalist and Marxist theoretician to participate in an academic >conference sponsored by Americans. The court split 6-3. The attorney-general >refused to grant a waiver under the Immigration and Nationality Act, 1952 - >as is required for advocates of communist doctrine - to make Ernest Mandel >eligible for a visa to the US. A Belgian citizen, Mandel, is a scholar, a >professional journalist and an avowed Marxist revolutionary. The government >claimed that he had abused opportunities afforded to him during an earlier >visit. Mandel and several American academics sued the attorney-general >alleging violation of their right to hear him and engage him in a free and >open academic exchange. It turned, however, on the special facts of the case >- the attorney-general's charge of past abuse. The majority held this was >bona fide exercise of discretion and did not consider the other issues. >Imagine its reaction to a blanket ban. Even so Justices Douglas, Marshall >and Brennan dissented. More, even the majority rejected the government's >plea that Mandel's books were available, after all. "This argument overlooks >what may be particular qualities inherent in sustained face-to-face debate, >discussion and questioning", the majority opined. It is unlikely that our >Supreme Court would uphold such a ban and a crying shame if it ever did. >______________________________________________________________________ >END OF TEXT From gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Sun Sep 12 14:32:27 1999 From: gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Gail Coelho) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 99 09:32:27 -0500 Subject: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. In-Reply-To: <19990911202357.69834.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052193.23782.8014937244814461991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:23 PM 9/11/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Readers must note that Justice A. G. Noorani was arrested by the government >of India more than 2 decades ago for suspected espionage for Pakistan. Of >course this fact is well know to all Indians, except his blind followers >like Comrade N. Ram who is the editor of newspaper 'The Hindu' and also the >Frontline magazine > What is well known to Indians? That Noorani *was* a spy or was *suspected* of spying? I'm glad to say that not everyone in India blindly accepts the government's accusations of spying -- because (a) suspicion is not the same as proof and (b) you'd have to be naive to believe that such accusations are always politically unmotivated ones. So it really does not tell us anything about Noorani -- either for or against him -- to say that he was arrested on suspicions of espionage. Also can we keep such irrelevant personal details out of it and get down to discussing the issue of preventing foreign scholars from working in India? Does Indian academia suffer because of it, and what can we Indians do? Gail Coelho From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Sep 12 20:12:06 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 99 16:12:06 -0400 Subject: Bibliographic information wanted Message-ID: <161227052195.23782.2339776479392709888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, 1) Can someone tell me if it is still possible to purchase Mayrhofer's A Concise etymological Sanskrit dictionary? The citing I have is "Kurzegefasstes etymologisches Worterbuch des Altindischen. A concise etymological Sanskrit Dictionary. Heidelberg, C. Winter, 1953. I can't find it listed even as out-of-print. Is C. Winter the publisher? I haven't been able to find anything for that either on the internet. 2)A. A. MacDonell in the introduction to his "Vedic Grammar for Student's" mention's his larger "Vedic Grammar". I've always wondered why given the easy availability and popularity of his other books for Vedic studies (and the lack of other generally available english books for Vedic Sanskrit), that this book has not been more readily available. I found it cited only 3 times in the Indology archives. I also see from the New York Public Library oriental collections that it was reprinted in 1968 by Indology Book House of Varanasi. Was the material in this larger grammar made redundant by his smaller Vedic Grammar for Students? Is it still a sound guide for Vedic studies? Also how have his other books, his students grammar and reader held up to the almost century of research since their publication? Yours, Harry ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Sun Sep 12 21:10:08 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 99 23:10:08 +0200 Subject: Godse Message-ID: <161227052197.23782.13767215873008468654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Thompson, Thanks for sending all those new visitors to my website. And sorry to disappoint them that the applause for Godse they expected wasn't there. My serious opinion about Gandhi and Godse is not in that brief website article (my Dutch book Moord op de Mahatma, Davidsfonds, Leuven 1998, though somewhat maltreated by the publisher, comes closer; I hope to have a better English version out by summer next year ; for a Hindu judgment of the murder with which I can largely agree, see the Gandhi chapter in Sita Ram Goel: Perversion of India's Political Parlance, Voice of India, Delhi ca. 1986, still in print). The article merely comments on the different political fall-out of the Gandhi murder as compared with the murder of Yitzhak Rabin, both killed because they were held responsible for a "land for peace" agreement. What I do express there is my agreement with Dr. Ambedkar that an orderly exchange of population would have saved many lives, and my disagreement with Godse that Partition was Gandhi's fault. The latter impression is still alive among the communities most affected by Partition, and I've noticed openly hostile reactions among Sikhs and Bengalis when the Mahatma is mentioned. However, Gandhi could not have prevented Partition even if he had staked his life for it. That he failed to try his tested method of fast unto death to put pressure on Jinnah is indeed something which can be held against him, at least if one insists on treating him as a superhuman saint. Which I don't : decades of informed criticism of Gandhi from many sides (see e.g. the Muslim-cum-Ambedkarite booklet Gandhi, Saint or Sinner? by one Fazl-ul-Haq, which presents a list of embarrassing facts) have brought the man down to the human level where he belongs, and where he will remain for the sobre historians in coming generations. Incidentally, and again in the footsteps of Dr. Ambedkar, I think Partition was the lesser evil, and the only important issue then was to minimize the human damage. In that task, the then leadership failed miserably, but Gandhi was simply not in charge then; as the guilty men, I would mention Jinnah, Nehru and especially Mountbatten. As for my judgment of the murder, I think that apart from morally wrong, it was also politically disastrous for India, and it was of course also a suicidal act for Godse's own political party (Hindu Mahasabha), which never recovered from the blow. It is difficult to find in history a man who, with so small a movement of his index finger, did more harm to the very ideals he cherished, than Godse. As Dr. Thompson summoned me to make a public statement on this matter, I felt I had to put the above on record. However, in deference to list rules, I appeal to all members to let this purely political topic rest. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Sep 13 16:13:33 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 09:13:33 -0700 Subject: Vishitadvaita and Saiva Siddhanta Message-ID: <161227052206.23782.3714477191216972759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran writes: > Even the astika traditions - the nAyanmars and the Azlwars - have brAhmanas > in their ranks. The great philosophy of Vishitadvaitam, a brAhmanical > contribution, which represents the highest point of the Azlwar school in > terms of systematic philosophy is itself the base for the Saiva SiddhAnta > philosophy. Saiva siddhanta grew out of nayanmars of Tevaram, saiva agamas, etc., rather than from the srivaishnava philosophies. Note that both philosophical schools have roots in Tamil works and these phiolosphies were nurtured in the Tamil South. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From GthomGt at CS.COM Mon Sep 13 13:15:45 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 09:15:45 -0400 Subject: Bibliographic information wanted Message-ID: <161227052203.23782.3920896836367775193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not know whether Mayrhofer's *Kurzegefasstes etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindischen* [1956-1976] [= KEWA] is still available. It may well be out of print now, since from a certain point of view it is being replaced by Mayrhofer's *Etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindoarischen* [1986-present] [=EWA]. Both are [were] published by Carl Winter. It would be unfortunate if KEWA really were out of print, because EWA, although it is an independent and up-to-date dictionary, presupposes access to KEWA. Mayrhofer's telegraphic style, difficult in itself, is compounded by his repeated references to KEWA, and if one wants to track down references to earlier literature, often they cannot be found in EWA because they are already cited in KEWA. In other words, one needs both of these invaluable [and expensive] dictionaries. As for Macdonell, his *Vedic Grammar* [originally published as part of the original Grundriss, I believe] is old but still very valuable. Macdonell was a good, thorough scholar. His *Vedic Grammar for Students* is less detailed but still very useful. Of course, a century of research in things like syntax and individual word-studies has made M's out of date with regard to details, but as a general description of the language it provides a good foundation. I myself have not seen the Indian reprint of the original *Vedic Grammar* that you mention. I make frequent use of Renou's *Grammaire de la langue ve'dique*, but I've been told that it too is no longer in print. If you are very ambitious [and wealthy] there is the multi-volume grammar of Wackernagel and Debrunner. I hope this is of use, George Thompson From gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Sep 13 14:55:34 1999 From: gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Gail Coelho) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 09:55:34 -0500 Subject: Godse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052204.23782.815159951436664244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is very interesting and insightful -- does anyone know if the book is available in the US? Gail At 01:03 PM 9/13/99 +0200, you wrote: >Those interested in certain disquieting aspects of modern Indian political >discourse, may want to read a 70's paper by Ashis Nandy "Final Encounter: >The Politics of the Assassination of Gandhi"; published - together with five >other essays in: "At the Edge of Psychology. Essays in Politics and >Culture", Delhi 1980, Oxford University Press (and, again in OUP, in 1990), >pp. 70-98. > >Gandhi, Nandy says, "[...] was trying to fight colonialism by fighting the >psychological equation which a patriarchy makes between masculinity and >aggressive social dominance and between femininity and subjugation. To fight >this battle he ingeniously combined aspects of folk Hinduism and recessive >elements of Christianity to mark out a new domain of public intervention" >(74). >According to Nandy, "Nathuram Vinayak Godse [...] was a representative of >the centre of the society that Gandhi was trying to turn into periphery" >[76]. >And further on: "Godse not only represented the traditional Indian >stratarchy which Gandhi was trying to break, he was sensitized by his >background to this process of elite displacement. Similarly, he also sensed >the other coordinate of the Gandhian 'revolution': the gradual legitimacy >given to femininity as a valued aspect of Indian self-definition. This >revaluation of femininity, too, threatened to deprive the traditional elite >like Godse of two of their major scapegoats: the Muslims and the British, >who had defeated and emasculated the Hindus and made them nirveerya or >sterile and napungsak or impotent. The theory of action associated with such >scapegoating was that the Hindus would have to redeem their masculinity by >fighting and defeating the Muslims and the British. [...]" (86) > >Hoping this bit of information is found useful, > >Artur Karp From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Sep 13 17:24:51 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 10:24:51 -0700 Subject: Nacikestas Message-ID: <161227052208.23782.3038523942193501246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Amos Nevo from Israel (amnev at hotmail.com), who is currently not subscribed to the list, requested me to forward a request. He would like to know if any scholars are currently working on the Naciketas myth. Replies may be addressed directly to . Thanks, Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hart at POLBOX.COM Mon Sep 13 11:03:31 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 13:03:31 +0200 Subject: Godse In-Reply-To: <01befd63$31a15980$LocalHost@deze-computer> Message-ID: <161227052199.23782.10909256501954811927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Those interested in certain disquieting aspects of modern Indian political discourse, may want to read a 70's paper by Ashis Nandy "Final Encounter: The Politics of the Assassination of Gandhi"; published - together with five other essays in: "At the Edge of Psychology. Essays in Politics and Culture", Delhi 1980, Oxford University Press (and, again in OUP, in 1990), pp. 70-98. Gandhi, Nandy says, "[...] was trying to fight colonialism by fighting the psychological equation which a patriarchy makes between masculinity and aggressive social dominance and between femininity and subjugation. To fight this battle he ingeniously combined aspects of folk Hinduism and recessive elements of Christianity to mark out a new domain of public intervention" (74). According to Nandy, "Nathuram Vinayak Godse [...] was a representative of the centre of the society that Gandhi was trying to turn into periphery" [76]. And further on: "Godse not only represented the traditional Indian stratarchy which Gandhi was trying to break, he was sensitized by his background to this process of elite displacement. Similarly, he also sensed the other coordinate of the Gandhian 'revolution': the gradual legitimacy given to femininity as a valued aspect of Indian self-definition. This revaluation of femininity, too, threatened to deprive the traditional elite like Godse of two of their major scapegoats: the Muslims and the British, who had defeated and emasculated the Hindus and made them nirveerya or sterile and napungsak or impotent. The theory of action associated with such scapegoating was that the Hindus would have to redeem their masculinity by fighting and defeating the Muslims and the British. [...]" (86) Hoping this bit of information is found useful, Artur Karp From roheko at MERKUR.NET Mon Sep 13 11:53:34 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 13:53:34 +0200 Subject: Bibliographic information wanted Message-ID: <161227052201.23782.16779250351827970806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> see the web-site http://www.harrassowitz.de Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > 1) Can someone tell me if it is still possible to purchase > Mayrhofer's A Concise etymological Sanskrit dictionary? The citing I have > is "Kurzegefasstes etymologisches Worterbuch des Altindischen. A concise > etymological Sanskrit Dictionary. Heidelberg, C. Winter, 1953. I can't > find it listed even as out-of-print. Is C. Winter the publisher? I haven't > been able to find anything for that either on the internet. > > 2)A. A. MacDonell in the introduction to his "Vedic Grammar for Student's" > mention's his larger "Vedic Grammar". I've always wondered why given the > easy availability and popularity of his other books for Vedic studies (and > the lack of other generally available english books for Vedic Sanskrit), > that this book has not been more readily available. I found it cited only > 3 times in the Indology archives. I also see from the New York Public > Library oriental collections that it was reprinted in 1968 by Indology Book > House of Varanasi. Was the material in this larger grammar made redundant > by his smaller Vedic Grammar for Students? Is it still a sound guide for > Vedic studies? Also how have his other books, his students grammar and > reader held up to the almost century of research since their publication? > > Yours, > > Harry > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Sep 13 23:34:28 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 16:34:28 -0700 Subject: Banning Foreign Scholars in India. Message-ID: <161227052212.23782.1851165680941161285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From Gail coelho's forwarded article from the EPW: > >It bagan in the 1970s when T N Kaul was ambassador to the US. There was a >sharp decline in the grant of visas to American scholars to visit India >Coinciding as it did with the US resumption of links with China, it led to >a significant diminution of interest in India.>> Oh really! where exactly did the EPW guys get this from? What the dear souls fail to understand is that America has invested a lot of money in trying to understand countries which are inimical to it as opposed to "friendly" countries. Note that they invested tons of money on Russian studies thru out the cold war but this seems to have vanished post 1991. Likewise thru the 70s, they didn't care much about Iran (when the Shah was around) but promptly jumped in after Khomeini came to power. Last year, Prof Ashutosh Varshney( Dept of Govt, Harvard U) was refused tenure because of a lack of interest in Indian Studies. At that time, I remember reading that there had been a steady lack of interest in Indian studies since the second world war..not sure of where this 70s figure comes from.. > >I had then remarked in this column: "Presumably a judge of the US Supreme >Court visiting India will not be allowed to deliver a talk explaining the >Bakke case, on positive discrimination in favour of the Blacks and its >aftermath because it might have a bearing on the 'politically sensitive' >issue of reservations.>> You've got to be kidding...If they get Clarence Thomas to tell them why you shouldn't have affirmative action, half a dozen parties that I know will want the Bharat Ratna to be given to him... Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Sep 14 02:54:44 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 16:54:44 -1000 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052217.23782.17894016360583127740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU asked: > > > Could he just have been stating a simple fact, > > i.e., that ceGkuTTuvan2 was mATalan2's king, > > rather than "articulating a case of linguistic > > nationalism"? > > No, because mATalan2's king is a Chola while ceGkuTTuvan2 is a Chera king. > The conversation takes place on the bank of the river gaGgA. Thanks for the clarification. I will try to find "silappadhikaram" in our University library and understand who said exactly what to whom, and in what context. I believe that most Tamilians, if asked to identify the main characters of "silappadhikaram", would name Kannagi, Kovalan, the Pandya King (Nedunchezhiyan?), maybe the Queen, and Madhavi, probably in that order. I actually have no clue who Matalan is; certainly, he is not a major figure. I will rectify my ignorance regarding him. Anyway, though, drawing conclusions about "linguistic nationalism" from one of the least important characters in "silappadhikaram" seems to be questionable. More later. Regards, Raja. From gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Tue Sep 14 00:56:33 1999 From: gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Gail Coelho) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 19:56:33 -0500 Subject: Banning Foreign Scholars in India. In-Reply-To: <19990913233429.2007.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052216.23782.16619262069613774692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just to keep record straight -- I didn't forward this article -- I replied to the list after someone forwarded it. Gail Coelho At 04:34 PM 9/13/99 -0700, you wrote: >From Gail coelho's forwarded article from the EPW: > >> >It bagan in the 1970s when T N Kaul was ambassador to the US. There was a >>sharp decline in the grant of visas to American scholars to visit India >>Coinciding as it did with the US resumption of links with China, it led to >>a significant diminution of interest in India.>> > >Oh really! where exactly did the EPW guys get this from? What the dear souls >fail to understand is that America has invested a lot of money in trying to >understand countries which are inimical to it as opposed to "friendly" >countries. Note that they invested tons of money on Russian studies thru out >the cold war but this seems to have vanished post 1991. Likewise thru the >70s, they didn't care much about Iran >(when the Shah was around) but promptly jumped in after Khomeini came to >power. > >Last year, Prof Ashutosh Varshney( Dept of Govt, Harvard U) was refused >tenure because of a lack of interest in Indian Studies. At that time, I >remember reading that there had been a steady lack of interest in Indian >studies since the second world war..not sure of where this 70s figure comes >from.. > > >> >I had then remarked in this column: "Presumably a judge of the US Supreme >>Court visiting India will not be allowed to deliver a talk explaining the >>Bakke case, on positive discrimination in favour of the Blacks and its >>aftermath because it might have a bearing on the 'politically sensitive' >>issue of reservations.>> > >You've got to be kidding...If they get Clarence Thomas to tell them why you >shouldn't have affirmative action, half a dozen parties that >I know will want the Bharat Ratna to be given to him... > > > >Krishna > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET Mon Sep 13 20:03:03 1999 From: sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET (S Stephen) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 20:03:03 +0000 Subject: Godse Message-ID: <161227052214.23782.16162136644658388079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bharat Gupt wrote: > Not only did Gandhians and the Congress that played the role of his heirs > kept women in the background, even the Indian intellegensia was unable to define any > distintive role for the Indian women. Even today women-liberation movement is > derivative of European movements. This may be so, but one of the first things I noted on arriving in the West is that there's discrimination against women in the job market even today in the "enlightened" West. In most jobs including in my field, software engineering, women are paid much less than men and I can provide you with salary surveys that would substantiate it. The one thing I should say for India, is eventhough most of the women folk are not liberated in their own homes, in the educated job market we stand side by side with men be it in the software or the banking industry both of which I am familiar with. Sujata From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Sep 13 20:59:53 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 20:59:53 +0000 Subject: Godse Message-ID: <161227052210.23782.5518593600469247247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: > > Gandhi, Nandy says, "[...] was trying to fight colonialism by fighting the > psychological equation which a patriarchy makes between masculinity and > aggressive social dominance and between femininity and subjugation. To fight > this battle he ingeniously combined aspects of folk Hinduism and recessive > elements of Christianity to mark out a new domain of public intervention" > (74). > According to Nandy, "Nathuram Vinayak Godse [...] was a representative of > the centre of the society that Gandhi was trying to turn into periphery" > [76]. > Artur Karp In retrospect, all this analysis by Pritish Nandi seems jargonistic talk with more of a political than a cultural agenda for any worthwhile transformation of Indian social order. How relevant is Gandhi's sermonising on women or feminity after fifty years of Independence in India? There was nothing special about the feminine role that Gandhi was able to project. In the words of Raja Rao, the celebrated author of the novel Serpent and the Rope, Gandhi only made "little men" out of women. That seems to be pretty much the political scene in India today as not even ten percent of its legislators are women. Not only did Gandhians and the Congress that played the role of his heirs kept women in the background, even the Indian intellegensia was unable to define any distintive role for the Indian women. Even today women-liberation movement is derivative of European movements. As for Godse, he gave his reasons for killing Gandhi in the court. The fact that his statements are not made so accessible, nor openly discussed and then evaluated or condemned only indicates that there is a lobby that wants keep the pot boiling over Godse. The recent Marathi play on this issue was banned promptly, why ? Was it a potential threat to peace or was it a Satanic Verse? Bharat Gupt Assoc Prof, Delhi univ. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Sep 14 03:17:08 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 23:17:08 -0400 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052219.23782.9546863479419123234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ramaswamy says: < as a Brahman wanting to learn Tamil in the aftermath of a powerful anti-Brahman movement in the state, I did not expect my interest in the language or its history would be welcomed in its putative home, Tamilnadu... I finally formally learned the language, this troubled "mother tongue" of mine in a land far away from both my home and my mother.> p. xxi-xxii When Ramaswamy learnt Tamil at Penn, did she study it using the grammatical terms such as vERRumai, iTaiccol, etc.? Students do in Tamilnadu. But that is not the way it is taught in USA where the language background is different. Based on References given by Ramaswamy, one can see that Fabian 1986 deals with Swahili in Belgian Congo, and Rafael 1988 deals with Tagalog. It is not clear what language Cohn 1985 is addressing. In any case, how can their conclusions be transferred to the Tamil situation? For languages without a long tradition of grammatical analysis, the grammars of the missionaries may have been of significance. Not for Tamil. No Tamil student in any traditional Tamil area learns Tamil using a missionary grammar. Then, why should Tamils criticize how the missionaries chose to teach non-Tamils in what was, in the view of the missionaries, the most efficient way to teach? But, grammars written by Tamils for use by Tamils, when they describe Tamil using mainly Sanskrit terminology, have been justifiably criticized. Such a criticism did not unfairly target brahmins. For instance, civaJAn2a mun2ivar of 18th century, a non-brahmin scholar in Tamil and Sanskrit, "opposed the overbearing enthusiasm of Sanskritists like Swaminatha Desikar, Vaidyanatha Desikar, and Subrahmanya Ditshitar" (Tamil Literature by K. Zvelebil, Wiesbaden, 1974, p. 190). Of these, the Desikars were non-brahmins and the Dikshitar was a brahmin. As Rajam Ramamurti said in 1983, "When Sanskrit terms are used to describe Tamil, the first and the foremost distortion that happens on the Tamil side is the total negligence of the descriptive nature of Tamil grammatical terminology. Tamil grammatical terminology is semantically motivated in the sense that the terms are self-explanatory of the concepts they signify" (See "What happens When Foreign Grammatical Terms are used to Describe an Indigenous Language?: A South Dravidian Situation," IJDL, Vol. 12, no. 2, p. 335-344) Regards S.Palaniappan From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Sep 14 00:29:40 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 99 00:29:40 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. Message-ID: <161227052221.23782.7710630408244627278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > I thought contemporary politics and government policies were to be avoided > on this list, but as it has already been raised, here goes. > > Following the recent nuclear tests, Indian scientists were denied visas to > visit Europe and the USA. Many of those already working in foreign lands > were told to return to India, leaving their equipment and notes behind. And > it is an open secret where most of the funds of the better funded > non-governmental organizations (NGOs) come from. Obviously, the Indian > government is retaliating, in its own clumsy way. Shri Vidyashankar has stated the political confrontation very well and there can be doubt that Indian Government is stating a point of prestige rather than a deep suspicion of all foreign scholars and of Indologists in particular. HOWEVER, I feel that the Indian academics should impress upon the New Home Minister as soon as he or she (there are surprises, once in a while) takes the oath to remove this Ban, as there is no justification for it in terms of threat to security. Inspite of its constrains, seminars and lectures etc and general academic and intellectual activity in India is open and before the public gaze. Indian academics are strong enough to confront any damaging propoganda that is feared to be indulged in by foreign scholars, a beaucratic filter is not needed. In fact, I am sure that the present order is at the ill advice of the administration and is harmful to Indian academics more than any body else. Bharat Gupt Assoc Prof, Delhi Univ. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 14 13:50:24 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 99 06:50:24 -0700 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052227.23782.10436793501994729800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > No, because mATalan2's king is a Chola while ceGkuTTuvan2 is a > Chera king. The conversation takes place on the bank of the river > gaGgA. <<< Thanks for the clarification. I will try to find "silappadhikaram" in our University library and understand who said exactly what to whom, and in what context. I believe that most Tamilians, if asked to identify the main characters of "silappadhikaram", would name Kannagi, Kovalan, the Pandya King (Nedunchezhiyan?), maybe the Queen, and Madhavi, probably in that order. I actually have no clue who Matalan is; certainly, he is not a major figure. I will rectify my ignorance regarding him. Anyway, though, drawing conclusions about "linguistic nationalism" from one of the least important characters in "silappadhikaram" seems to be questionable. More later. >>> It can also be said that some have not heard of CilappatikAram itself. It is also true of the Rig Veda. But anyone spending time on Cil. will realize the importance of MaaTalan's role. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 14 11:43:04 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 99 07:43:04 -0400 Subject: web or e-mail address of Carl Winter Publishers needed Message-ID: <161227052225.23782.9678082044681894040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Can someone give me the webpage or e-mail address for Carl Winter publishers. I tried the following web and e-mail address which I found on the internet but they appear to be wrong or out-of-date. www.winter-verlag-hd.de and info at winter-verlag-hd.de. Better yet is there a bookdealer in the U.S. who can supply there publications. Yours, Harry ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Tue Sep 14 15:46:30 1999 From: gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Gail Coelho) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 99 10:46:30 -0500 Subject: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. In-Reply-To: <37DD96F4.4296@del3.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227052229.23782.3316190259834273230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:29 AM 9/14/99 +0000, you wrote: > >Inspite of its constrains, seminars and lectures etc and general academic and >intellectual activity in India is open and before the public gaze. >Indian academics are strong enough to confront any damaging propoganda that >is feared to >be indulged in by foreign scholars, a beaucratic filter is not needed. >Bharat Gupt >Assoc Prof, Delhi Univ. I agree, I think Indian academics *are* strong and alert enough to confront any negative effects that there may be from allowing foreign researchers to work in India. Despite all the accusations of racism against western scholars that have been floating around this list, I (based on direct experience with them) do not believe that academics in the US is generally racist or can even afford to be racist in the current era. There are of course negative effects that can result from letting in foreign scholars -- namely the missionary threat and the CIA threat!! There's little one can do about the latter, its inevitable and unavoidable and why worry about what you can't stop. Personally what I have a problem with is the danger of letting in a lot of missionaries (not all missionaries, just the agressive evangelical ones, bent on converting the world to their own beliefs) disguised as research scholars into the country. But even there, I think we have enough secular organizations (especially NGOs) spread out across India, who could quickly identify researchers who try to mix religious activity with academic research. And they would easily stop them from continuing their work. Of course, we shouldn't go to the extreme of suspecting *every* foreign scholar of being a missionary in disguise. I think the benefits of letting in foreign scholars far outweigh the problems, so I wish Indian academicians would mobilize themselves and do something about this. Gail Coelho From a.korn at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Tue Sep 14 10:19:14 1999 From: a.korn at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (agnes korn) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 99 12:19:14 +0200 Subject: TITUS Texte Message-ID: <161227052223.23782.9105507298056468271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Liebe KollegInnen, von den TITUS-Texten (http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/ , unter "Textus") sind einige jetzt auch in HTML-Format vorraetig; weitere sollen folgen. Beste Gruesse Agnes Korn Dear colleagues, an increasing number of texts on the TITUS server (http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/ , see "textus") are now also available in HTML. Best regards Agnes Korn -- ........................................................................ Agnes Korn Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft : Tel. + 49 - 69 - 798 22 847 Universitaet Frankfurt : Fax + 49 - 69 - 798 22 873 PF 11 19 32 : http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de D - 60054 Frankfurt : mailto:a.korn at em.uni-frankfurt.de From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 14 21:27:34 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 99 14:27:34 -0700 Subject: civilizational ardour Message-ID: <161227052231.23782.776663842083352206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Mathuresan writes : >nanda candran rplies: >If classical Sangam age is between anywhere 500 BC to 500 AD, it is the age >of the most vigorous philosophical development in Samskrutam literature. It >was the age of the later Upanishads, the Buddha, Mahavira, the Astika and >the nAstika schools. Where is the basis for your claim? > >> Exactly. Among the philosophical works like Upanishads, etc., >>we do not find a body of lit. paralleling Sangam works. The answer to this question is deeply rooted in the history and progress of the Vedic religion and the caste system itself. In most cultures you'll find that the God is worshipped - solely because he's considered as an *other* - an entity seperate from the worshipper. The history of the world reveals that God has been identified with nature, the Sun, with animals, with warrior heroes etc In such worship, it is necessary for the worshipper to address the Lord in some way of praise to gain his favor. This is the origin of devotional worship. This can be observed in the Samhitas parts of the shruti, where hymns are sung to gain the favour of Indra, Agni and Vayu. To further please the Lord sacrifices too were carried out. Then we've the mystics of the Upanishads, who realize that when it's he who's created the world, what's the point in sacrificing to him, what belongs to him? So true sacrifice is to sacrifice oneself - the Ego. Plus this process led to further awakening that in essence, man himself wasn't different from the creator - advaitam. So reality or God was considered inherent in man. And it's my opinion, that this turn in religion was due to binding a set of people to the field as a profession. Since it was all that they had to do, they truly made inways into it. This trend can be observed in all early Arya religions - Buddhism, Jainism and the five astika schools, except Purva MimAmsa which still preached Vedic sacrifices. For SAmkhya and Yoga, it's the seperation of Purusha (Self) from Prakriti, which is liberation. Both early NyAya and the Vaiseshika had no place for a creator God and for them too, it's the knowledge of the Self which is the liberator. Early VedAnta probably preached identity with difference and Advaitam preaches absolutism, denying all change as mithyam or unreal. For the Jainas the evolved purified Self, which attains nirvAna. Early TherevAda Buddhism seems to consider nirvAna as an other, but very impersonal and hence not devotional. The SarvAstivAdins and VijnAnavAdins identify nirvAna with atoms and consciousness respectively, not as an other, but as the inherent reality in man. And ShUnyavAda Buddhism asserts that there's no difference between samsAra and nirvAna itself. But then how do you attain this reality? All these schools are unanimous in their claim that it's *knowledge* which is the liberator. When we know our real identity that's the Real (ofcourse, Buddhism doesn't belive in a Self. But even for it, it's knowledge which is the liberator). As Seneca says, "No wind is favorable, if the port to which we sail is not clear". So all schools tried to give the exact description of the Real. Not only that they also tried to disprove the theories of their rivals. And this gave birth to the philosophic speculation of these schools which resulted in the development of metaphysics, psychology, logic and epistemology. Since the whole profession of the brAhmanas was this, a great amount of literature was developed. Jainas and bauddhas too as they were basically a monastic religion developed quite a bit of literature. So the situation had become : when you're the reality, whom do you worship? And this is the reason, that devotional literature is lacking in the golden age of Vedic history for religion had become extremely philosophical. But that doesn't mean there was no devotional literature in the scholastic period - there are a few - Shankara's hymns, Nagarjuna's Catuhstava etc But it wasn't the predominent inclination. But I doubt whether this philosophic religion was prevelant among the masses. Probably the sacrificial religion was what was encouraged amongst the people and later with the Buddha the religion became more ethical. The Puranas, the IthihAsAs and MahAyAna Buddhism bring a devotional element in popular religion, but I doubt if this has much effect on the religion of the serious practitioners - the brAhmanas and the nAstika monks. Religion in the Southern lands - the Nayanmars and Azlwars - is basically the normal popular religion where God is worshipped as an other and hence - devotional worship. Needless to say, very inspiring devotional poetry and literature in this vein were produced. And the meeting of this stream with the brAhmanic philosophical religion, is what spawned the bhakti schools of VedAnta - VishitAdvaitam, Dvaitam etc - which ignore knowledge as the liberator and enjoin devotion or *bhakti* as the means to salvation. It's not unlikely that due to the Moslem invasions, there was felt a need to disperse the faith amongst the people too for cultural solidarity. And in this period devotional literature of great quality was produced even in Samskrutam and other local dialects. So the reason that devotional literature is lacking in early Vedic history is more due to the fact that religion itself had taken a different and more serious turn, due to exclusive concentration on these matters by a set of people. >The following >lines have nothing to do with my original posting. It has everything to do with it, except you do not choose to acknowledge it. >Some poor folk in Tamil Nadu still sacrifice animals to Gods, drink liquor >when somebody dies and dance and sing on the streets following the corpse >to >the graveyard. > >Do 'upper caste' Tamils do that? I don't think racially they're different >from the poor Tamils and have a lot in common in culture and language with >the poor Tamils. > >So why are they different? And whose is the original culture? > >Did the poor folk descend in terms of culture or did the richer folk >ascend? >And how so? And given the claims of the "secular" nature of >dravidian culture why is there such a discrepancy in the culture between >the >same people, at all? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 14 23:52:43 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 99 16:52:43 -0700 Subject: civilizational ardour Message-ID: <161227052234.23782.5781273423384125381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran >Both early NyAya and the Vaiseshika had no place for a creator God and for >them too, it's the knowledge of the Self which is the >liberator. Nyaya without a creator God??? Textual sources? Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Sep 15 07:28:36 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 07:28:36 +0000 Subject: civilizational ardour/origin of bhakti Message-ID: <161227052236.23782.5102200230332892147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: > > S Mathuresan writes : > > >nanda candran replies: > >If classical Sangam age is between anywhere 500 BC to 500 AD, it is the age > >of the most vigorous philosophical development in Samskrutam literature. It > >was the age of the later Upanishads, the Buddha, Mahavira, the Astika and > >the nAstika schools. Where is the basis for your claim? > > > > >> Exactly. Among the philosophical works like Upanishads, etc., > >>we do not find a body of lit. paralleling Sangam works. > > The answer to this question is deeply rooted in the history and progress of > the > Vedic religion and the caste system itself. The Origin of Bhakti and God as the Other : This most intriguing subject need not be seen as a development within the Indian subcontinent only. Was there no bhakti/devotion among the performers of Vedic yajnas to the devatas they sacrificed for? I am sure there must have been. The process of making the devataas into idols (eikones) starts in which part of the subcontinent, north or south ? Before we go on to date Sangam literature and use it as evidence of bhakti let us pause to see the earliest evidence of idols. They are found not in South India but in the Harappan, Greek and Sumerian world. This leaves us with the option of concluding that: 1. The usual AIT. That Aryans descend from the North. They amalgamate with Minoans of Crete, take idol worship and temple making from Minoans and make the earliest temples in north Greece. In India, the Aryans push down the Harappans to south India who develop Sangam literature in Tamil but do not make icons or gods or temples (archeological evidence absent). OR 2. That the Harappans knew no idolatory, the seals etc, had a legal or secular use. They had no temples as none seemed to have been excavated. That idol worship prevailed only in the Meditterranean and the Middle East form the very early times, it became highly refined as the great art of temple making is seen in Egyptian, Cretan and Hellenic cultures and in a simpler manifestation in the Mid East. Idol worship had strong opponents in the Mid East only and hence the quarrel between idolators and icoclast found in Mid East only. Idol worship/bhakti, not just as devotion (which could be felt for amorphic gods also) but as temple phenomenon, comes to India from the West around 500 bce and takes the shape of the cult of Vasudev/Krishna, Vishnu, Surya, Rudra, Shiva, etc.. It is reconciled with Brahmavaad or Jnaana. This phiolosophic development need not be seen in terms of Caste, Color or Language. The three streams (Triveni? ) of Yaaga(sacrifice), Brahmavaaada and its Nastika opposition Aajivaka, bauddha, Jaina etc (no morphe, icon mental or physical), and bhakti as worship of the ishta contine all over the subcontinent in various shades and amalgamantions. The Sangam literare is part of that development. Bhakti as worship of the ishta devataa cannot exist , cannot be formulated without, without icon and temple. If Harappan/Tamil/ Southern orinality of bhakti is to be established it must connect to archeological remains of idols and temples, whether from Harappan times or later in the South. Taking all kinds of evidence together, bhakti of the ishta is older outside India. Bharat Gupt Associate Prof , Delhi Univ. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 15 14:46:38 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 07:46:38 -0700 Subject: [Fwd:] Tamil Virtual University report Message-ID: <161227052242.23782.5193644315612862306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am forwarding this to INDOLOGY list from www.tamil.net. The tamil.net and the literary tamil list (agathiyar at egroups.com managed by Dr. Jayabarathi) have interesting discussions on old India. Both lists use TSCII bilingual fonts. In the 256 spots, both the regular english keyboard strokes and all the Tamil letters are accommodated elegantly in the bilingual fonts. This makes writing bilingual texts both in english and tamil simple and easy. Regards, N. Ganesan ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: Institute of Asian Studies TAMIL VIRTUAL UNIVERSITY: Report to the High-Level Committee This is to inform Tamil.Net readers that the expanded report on the Tamil Virtual University submitted to the Chairman of the High-Level Committee on 3-09-1999 is now publicly accessible at this URL: http://xlweb.com/heritage/asian/tvu_report.htm The TVU report is hyperlinked to sites of other virtual universities and Tamil learning resource areas around the world. Kindly note that this is an independent report and not an official document of the Tamil Virtual University. The report, moreover, was undertaken on a crash basis, so many centres of Tamil studies in non-English speaking nations (like Japan, Italy or the Czech Republic) are not included in the report. Nevertheless, the report may serve as a useful reference tool and source of information until such time when a more comprehensive official document is released by the State Government of Tamil Nadu. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or comments. Sincerely, Patrick Harrigan Head of Multimedia ************************************ Institute of Asian Studies Chemmancherry, Sholinganallur Chennai - 600 119 India Tel. 091-44-496-1662 Fax: 091-44-496-0959 Web site: http://xlweb.com/heritage/ ************************************ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Wed Sep 15 15:46:31 1999 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 08:46:31 -0700 Subject: Thanks re: Jaina-lak.sa.naavalii In-Reply-To: <199909100006.KAA21689@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227052244.23782.7063369432091159737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Royce Wiles for the precise information on Jaina-laksanavali. -- ashok aklujkar From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 15 15:56:20 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 08:56:20 -0700 Subject: civilizational ardour Message-ID: <161227052246.23782.10755629678236343031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhya writes : >Both early NyAya and the Vaiseshika had no place for a creator God >and for >them too, it's the knowledge of the Self which is the >liberator. >>Nyaya without a creator God??? Textual sources? Maybe I'm mistaken. Early Vaiseshika definitely didn't support a creator, till it found that it needed one to mobilize its atoms for world creation. NyAya is much later than Vaiseshika. So it may be that NyAya did have a God in its scheme of things even in the beginning. My text on NyAya has the SUtrAs together with the bhAshyam and vArtikam. Having read the Vaiseshika first I was of the opinion the same followed with NyAya. Let me check it up. Or if you can clarify, all the better. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From A.Soar at MACMILLAN.CO.UK Wed Sep 15 08:22:54 1999 From: A.Soar at MACMILLAN.CO.UK (Soar Adrian) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 09:22:54 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 11 Sep 1999 to 12 Sep 1999 (#1999-174) Message-ID: <161227052238.23782.15808005874752301817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How do I desubscribe? -----Original Message----- From: Automatic digest processor [mailto:LISTSERV at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK] Sent: 13 September 1999 00:00 To: Recipients of INDOLOGY digests Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 11 Sep 1999 to 12 Sep 1999 (#1999-174) There are 7 messages totalling 401 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Is ananda an emotion? 2. (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. (3) 3. Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue 4. Bibliographic information wanted 5. Godse ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 16:54:35 PDT From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan Subject: Re: Is ananda an emotion? "Harsha V. Dehejia" wrote: >Fellow Indologoists: > >In a recent seminar there was heated discussion whether ananda (bliss) is a >state of being or is it an exalted human emotion? The speaker argued that >ananda is not an emotion. Any thoughts? > Perhaps the most extensive discussions of Ananda are found in the vedAnta schools. Check the commentaries of various authors on brahmasUtra 1. 1. 12-19, bRhadAraNyaka upanishad 3. 9. 28 and taittirIya upanishad 2. 1-5. Also see maNDana miSra's brahmasiddhi 1. 2-6, where Ananda as an experience (na saMvedyaH karmatva abhAvAt) is distinguished from Ananda as a state of being that is self-luminous (na ca asaMvedyaH svaprakASatvAt). For a nyAya-vaiSeshika perspective, see vAtsyAyana's nyAyabhUshaNa, which criticizes an equation of the state of liberation with an experience of Ananda. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:43:35 PDT From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan Subject: Re: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. I thought contemporary politics and government policies were to be avoided on this list, but as it has already been raised, here goes. Following the recent nuclear tests, Indian scientists were denied visas to visit Europe and the USA. Many of those already working in foreign lands were told to return to India, leaving their equipment and notes behind. And it is an open secret where most of the funds of the better funded non-governmental organizations (NGOs) come from. Obviously, the Indian government is retaliating, in its own clumsy way. I have long since given up expecting any long range perspective from Indian journalists, whether they are in Arun Shourie's camp or A. G. Noorani's camp or somewhere else. I would, however, expect those in academia to be better in this regard. Do not lose sight of the fact that for all its ancientness, India is still only 52 years old as a democracy. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:20:01 +0000 From: Bharat Gupt Subject: Re: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU asked: > > > Could he just have been stating a simple fact, > > i.e., that ceGkuTTuvan2 was mATalan2's king, > > rather than "articulating a case of linguistic > > nationalism"? > > No, because mATalan2's king is a Chola while ceGkuTTuvan2 is a Chera king. > The conversation takes place on the bank of the river gaGgA. Does standing and speaking on the bank of Ganga make it Tamil nationalism ? Is taking pride or fondness in your spoken/family/ regional tongue enough to constitute nationalism. The "mula-sthana" has been always a matter of identity for pretwentienth century Indians. The mulasthaana , caste or gotra, and occupational reference were the constituents of an Indian name till recently. Nationalism on the other hand is an urge to demarcate a state on the basis of language which is then used for everkind of thng by its inhabitants. It is an obsession with monolingualism that tends to use that language for everthing from buying a beetle leaf to philosophical discourse. This phenomenon begins with print in Europe and came to India in the 19th century. Before that Indians were highly multulingual, using different languages for different things and for addressing different social classes. If we call Cilapaddikaram is a work of Tamil nationalism, then Tulsidas's Ramayana is a work of Avadhii nationalism, Surdas's Bhramargit of Brija nationalism (both works where great affection is revealed for the topography) and Meghaduta of ??? Brahmin/Aryan-ism, I guess, because it is sanskrit and being in sanskrit keeps it only brahmin eventhough it is a great example of topographical aesthetics. Bharat Gupt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:22:10 -0500 From: Gail Coelho Subject: Re: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. Thank you for forwarding that message to the list. I think Academicians in India should do something about these restrictions on work by foreign scholars in India, especially because the restrictions harm the quality of Indian academics itself. But the question is what can we do about it? Any ideas? Gail Coelho At 12:53 AM 9/12/99 +0530, you wrote: >This is forwarded from the RISA-L. > >------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >Date sent: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 05:07:25 -0700 (PDT) >Send reply to: risa-l at lists.acusd.edu >Subject: Banning Foreign Scholars in India. > >Economic and Political Weekly, Vol XXXIV, No 30 (July 24, 1999): 2048-2049 > >Civil Liberties >Banning Foreign Scholars by A G Noorani > >By a recent government order a foreign national intending to attend workshop >seminars has to seek clearance from the home ministry. This order is an >assault on the autonomy of Indian universities, already under stress. > >It bagan in the 1970s when T N Kaul was ambassador to the US. There was a >sharp decline in the grant of visas to American scholars to visit India. >Coinciding as it did with the US resumption of links with China, it led to a >significant diminution of interest in India. Be it said to the credit of >American academia that it was sharply critical of the Nixon-Kissinger policy >on Bangladesh. > >If a restrictive visa policy marked Phase I, in the next phase, a decade >later, new curbs were put on the appointment of foreign nationals in Indian >universities. Devsagar Singh's report in Indian Express of June 7, 1985 >provided the details: "The government of India has put new restrictions on >the appointment of foreign nationals in Indian universities, their research >programme and movement into sensitive areas. All the universities have been >asked to keep a strict vigil on their activities and implement the >guidelines of the government strictly". He amplified: "Appointments of >foreign nationals could be made only in very exceptional circumstances after >obtaining prior clearance of the government... Even for inviting a foreign >scholar as visiting professor, universities will now be required to obtain >prior permission of the government." > >Nor is this all. "In case a university proposes to organise an international >seminar or symposium, it will have to furnish to the government a detailed >note on the theme of the conference, level of participation, name of the >countries and their scholars as also the source of funding. The government >will have the right to refuse permission." Subjects like defence, "themes >which are politically sensitive" and the like are barred as subjects for >research. If foreigners come on a tourist visa they must not conduct >research. Lastly,"foreign scholars have also been debarred from delivering >any lecture or talk on topics of controversial nature". > >I had then remarked in this column: "Presumably a judge of the US Supreme >Court visiting India will not be allowed to deliver a talk explaining the >Bakke case, on positive discrimination in favour of the Blacks and its >aftermath because it might have a bearing on the 'politically sensitive' >issue of reservations. Nor may he speak on federal-state relations - also a >'politically sensitive' issue. > >So much for the casual solitary lecture - what to speak of a series of >lectures sponsored by an endowment or a university. Rise further in this >ladder of state control of knowledge and you find curbs on seminars, or >invitation to or appointment of foreign scholars"... that has now come to >pass as a report in The Hindu of June 24, 1999 shows. It bears quotation in >extenso: In a surprise move, the government has made it 'mandatory' for all >foreign nationals intending to participate in workshops and seminars >organised by voluntary organisations in the country to take clearance from >the Union home ministry. > >Though there is no written rule or guideline, the government has started >following this system recently setting up a new precedent. This pertains to >seminars and workshops organised by voluntary organisations. Also, the >voluntary organisations would have to take permission from the ministry of >external afairs to organise such a conference where there are foreign >participants. > >Recently, three of the international participants to the 11th Annual Johns >Hopkins International Philanthropy Fellows Conference on Building Civil >Society being organised by the Development Support Initiative, Bangalore, >from July 3-9 got a fax that they will not be given visas. The three >participants were told by the Indian High Commission in London that they >should first get clearance from the home ministry. The High Commission >informed them that "all conferences to do with the voluntary sector and >which appear to be government/politically sensitive has to get clearance for >participants from abroad". > >Several government officials, members from the corporate sector and the >media are expected to participate in the conference to be held in Bangalore. >This matter was brought to the notice of the Voluntary Action Network India >(VANI) which expressed shock and surprise at the home ministry setting up >the new precedent of foreign participants having to take clearance from it >for attending workshops and seminars organised by NGOs in the country. VANI >expressed surprise that while thousands of foreign tourists are coming to >India without much problems and NRIs are getting permanent visas after >paying certain amount of money, the government has started a new precedent >to get special clearance from the home ministry for participants at >conferences organised by the voluntary sector... The officials of the home >ministry failed to give any explanation behind this move. >Indian academia is not only a house divided but one of whose major sections >is possessed of chauvinism while another pays court to the Congress (I) by >sheer force of habit, presumably. What to speak of curbs on foreigners, the >academia has overlooked Sonia Gandhi's untenable claims to copyright in the >Nehru-Indira Gandhi papers which properly belong to the Union of India as >trustees for the nation (Vide the writer's article 'State Property: The >Status of Official Documents', Frontline, August 8, 1997). > >The latest order is not only a curb on foreign academies but, above all, an >assault on the autonomy of Indian universities, NGOs and think-tanks - >already under stress and on the rights of the Indian citizen. As has been >pointed out in this column earlier the fundamental right to freedom of >speech and expression (Article 19(1)(a) of the Constitution) necessarily >implies that the citizen is entitled to receive information - >electronically, in print and orally ('Right to Receive Foreign Telecasts', >EPW April 13, 1991). The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly that the right >to know flows from the right to speak; is "derived from the concept of >freedom of speech" (vide Raj Narain's case AIR 1975 SC 865), Maneka Gandhi's >case AIR 1978 597 and S P Gupta's case AIR 1981 SC 149). > >India has ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. >Article 19(2) of the Covenant says explicitly that the right to freedom of >expression "shall include freedom to seek, receive and import information >and ideas of all kind, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or >in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice". >India is obligated under the Covenant to submit periodic reports for >examination by the Human Rights Committee on its observance of the rights. >Successive attorneys-general of India have been grilled by experts on the >committee. > >It is true that the courts allow the government considerable latitude in >matters of national security and in the admission and expulsion of >foreigners. But the onus is on the state to establish that the acts are so >related. The courts will not scrutinise the adequacy of the evidence. >However, if the order is shown to be mala fide or an abuse of power it will >be struck down. Refusal of visa to a foreign national invited to participate >in a conference or seminar in India is very much open to challenge in the >courts if it is demonstrated to be an attempt to stifle dissent, not the >foreigners dissent so much as their Indian hosts' right to hear a viewpoint >the government of India finds distasteful. The Indian citizen's rights do >not depend on the tastes of the ministers or bureaucrats. > >In Kleindienst vs Mandel (1972) 408 US 753, the US Supreme Court upheld the >attorney general, Richard Kleindienst's refusal of a visa for Ernest Mandel, >a Belgian journalist and Marxist theoretician to participate in an academic >conference sponsored by Americans. The court split 6-3. The attorney-general >refused to grant a waiver under the Immigration and Nationality Act, 1952 - >as is required for advocates of communist doctrine - to make Ernest Mandel >eligible for a visa to the US. A Belgian citizen, Mandel, is a scholar, a >professional journalist and an avowed Marxist revolutionary. The government >claimed that he had abused opportunities afforded to him during an earlier >visit. Mandel and several American academics sued the attorney-general >alleging violation of their right to hear him and engage him in a free and >open academic exchange. It turned, however, on the special facts of the case >- the attorney-general's charge of past abuse. The majority held this was >bona fide exercise of discretion and did not consider the other issues. >Imagine its reaction to a blanket ban. Even so Justices Douglas, Marshall >and Brennan dissented. More, even the majority rejected the government's >plea that Mandel's books were available, after all. "This argument overlooks >what may be particular qualities inherent in sustained face-to-face debate, >discussion and questioning", the majority opined. It is unlikely that our >Supreme Court would uphold such a ban and a crying shame if it ever did. >______________________________________________________________________ >END OF TEXT ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:32:27 -0500 From: Gail Coelho Subject: Re: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. At 01:23 PM 9/11/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Readers must note that Justice A. G. Noorani was arrested by the government >of India more than 2 decades ago for suspected espionage for Pakistan. Of >course this fact is well know to all Indians, except his blind followers >like Comrade N. Ram who is the editor of newspaper 'The Hindu' and also the >Frontline magazine > What is well known to Indians? That Noorani *was* a spy or was *suspected* of spying? I'm glad to say that not everyone in India blindly accepts the government's accusations of spying -- because (a) suspicion is not the same as proof and (b) you'd have to be naive to believe that such accusations are always politically unmotivated ones. So it really does not tell us anything about Noorani -- either for or against him -- to say that he was arrested on suspicions of espionage. Also can we keep such irrelevant personal details out of it and get down to discussing the issue of preventing foreign scholars from working in India? Does Indian academia suffer because of it, and what can we Indians do? Gail Coelho ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:12:06 EDT From: Harry Spier Subject: Bibliographic information wanted Dear list members, 1) Can someone tell me if it is still possible to purchase Mayrhofer's A Concise etymological Sanskrit dictionary? The citing I have is "Kurzegefasstes etymologisches Worterbuch des Altindischen. A concise etymological Sanskrit Dictionary. Heidelberg, C. Winter, 1953. I can't find it listed even as out-of-print. Is C. Winter the publisher? I haven't been able to find anything for that either on the internet. 2)A. A. MacDonell in the introduction to his "Vedic Grammar for Student's" mention's his larger "Vedic Grammar". I've always wondered why given the easy availability and popularity of his other books for Vedic studies (and the lack of other generally available english books for Vedic Sanskrit), that this book has not been more readily available. I found it cited only 3 times in the Indology archives. I also see from the New York Public Library oriental collections that it was reprinted in 1968 by Indology Book House of Varanasi. Was the material in this larger grammar made redundant by his smaller Vedic Grammar for Students? Is it still a sound guide for Vedic studies? Also how have his other books, his students grammar and reader held up to the almost century of research since their publication? Yours, Harry ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 23:10:08 +0200 From: Koenraad Elst Subject: Godse Dear Dr. Thompson, Thanks for sending all those new visitors to my website. And sorry to disappoint them that the applause for Godse they expected wasn't there. My serious opinion about Gandhi and Godse is not in that brief website article (my Dutch book Moord op de Mahatma, Davidsfonds, Leuven 1998, though somewhat maltreated by the publisher, comes closer; I hope to have a better English version out by summer next year ; for a Hindu judgment of the murder with which I can largely agree, see the Gandhi chapter in Sita Ram Goel: Perversion of India's Political Parlance, Voice of India, Delhi ca. 1986, still in print). The article merely comments on the different political fall-out of the Gandhi murder as compared with the murder of Yitzhak Rabin, both killed because they were held responsible for a "land for peace" agreement. What I do express there is my agreement with Dr. Ambedkar that an orderly exchange of population would have saved many lives, and my disagreement with Godse that Partition was Gandhi's fault. The latter impression is still alive among the communities most affected by Partition, and I've noticed openly hostile reactions among Sikhs and Bengalis when the Mahatma is mentioned. However, Gandhi could not have prevented Partition even if he had staked his life for it. That he failed to try his tested method of fast unto death to put pressure on Jinnah is indeed something which can be held against him, at least if one insists on treating him as a superhuman saint. Which I don't : decades of informed criticism of Gandhi from many sides (see e.g. the Muslim-cum-Ambedkarite booklet Gandhi, Saint or Sinner? by one Fazl-ul-Haq, which presents a list of embarrassing facts) have brought the man down to the human level where he belongs, and where he will remain for the sobre historians in coming generations. Incidentally, and again in the footsteps of Dr. Ambedkar, I think Partition was the lesser evil, and the only important issue then was to minimize the human damage. In that task, the then leadership failed miserably, but Gandhi was simply not in charge then; as the guilty men, I would mention Jinnah, Nehru and especially Mountbatten. As for my judgment of the murder, I think that apart from morally wrong, it was also politically disastrous for India, and it was of course also a suicidal act for Godse's own political party (Hindu Mahasabha), which never recovered from the blow. It is difficult to find in history a man who, with so small a movement of his index finger, did more harm to the very ideals he cherished, than Godse. As Dr. Thompson summoned me to make a public statement on this matter, I felt I had to put the above on record. However, in deference to list rules, I appeal to all members to let this purely political topic rest. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ ------------------------------ End of INDOLOGY Digest - 11 Sep 1999 to 12 Sep 1999 (#1999-174) *************************************************************** -- This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Macmillan Publishers Limited cannot accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 15 16:25:35 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 09:25:35 -0700 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052254.23782.16044874373941713709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri. N. S. Raja writes: >I believe that most Tamilians, if asked >to identify the main characters of >"silappadhikaram", would name >Kannagi, .... Most Tamils will read what is written as "ka.n.nakai" in tamil alphabets as something like "ka.n.nahi". I attempted to explain this here on 6-Mar-98 under the heading, Tamil pronunciation. May be due to Sanskritized thinking, some English writers render Tamil "ka.n.naki" as kannagi. This happens because they transfer all intervocalical Tamil "k"s into "g"s following Sanskrit k, kh, g, gh series. However, Tamils pronounce her as something like kaNNahi. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Wed Sep 15 19:45:18 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 09:45:18 -1000 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue In-Reply-To: <19990915162536.36827.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052267.23782.13814474281957626037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > May be due to Sanskritized thinking, some English writers > render Tamil "ka.n.naki" as kannagi. This happens because > they transfer all intervocalical Tamil "k"s into "g"s > following Sanskrit k, kh, g, gh series. However, Tamils > pronounce her as something like kaNNahi. You will also find plenty of Tamils pronouncing Tamil "ka.n.naki" as "kaNNagi". As for how people write it in English, here are the results from searching on Altavista (http://www.altavista.com/): Search for: Number of web pages found: -------------------------------------------- +kannagi 162 +kannaki 29 +kannahi 3 Regards, Raja. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 15 18:16:33 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 11:16:33 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052258.23782.15279823504502780165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Hart "The Ancient Tamil Poems: their milieu and their Sanskrit counterparts": page 118-119: >"...This shows how the indigenous customs spread to into Indo-Aryan > >culture:before a group was assimilated, Brhamins would come into it >and >adopt those values most admired by that group in order to gain >respect." "This shows"? What shows? Without that information the whole passage becomes meaningless! >Today, an ideal of chastity not too different from the early Tamil one >pervades virtually all of India, being perceptibly stronger than it was in >medieval India....[deleted] What's the evidence to prove that it's stronger today that it was in medieval India? Without that information and its certification, again the whole argument is suspect. >So the very foundation of Valmiki Ramayanam itself, moral and epic, >is >Dravidian. This claim would again involve proof whether there's any pre-Ramayanam Tamil literature. If you want to make a meaningful argument please do not quote (at least in bits) from secondary authors. If you'd produced arguments to show that Ramayanam is later than Tamil literature which value chastity and also show that there's no pre Ramayanam literature which didn't value chastity, then the argument will be more effective. And note that (if I remember right) Thiruvalluvar himself chides brAhmanas against being too restrictive with their women, which indirectly reflects the Arya worldview with respect to chastity. But again, if both are but one people, there's no question of who did what first. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Sep 15 18:36:53 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 11:36:53 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052261.23782.17310295094934100325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- nanda chandran wrote: > And note that (if I remember right) Thiruvalluvar himself chides brAhmanas > against being too restrictive with their women, which indirectly reflects > the Arya worldview with respect to chastity. This is something new I have not heard of. Is there a quote? OTOH: Kapilar, a brAhman, enjoys eating meat and drinking liquor while partying with Kings. He sings about these parties several centuries before Thiruvalluvar. Comparable with Yajnavalkya relishing fatty beaf in SB. Thiruvalluvar chides brahmins for making animal slaughters in the performance of Vedic sacrifices. "avi corintu aayiram vETTalin2 on2Ran2 uyir cekuttu uNNAmai nan2Ru". __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Sep 15 19:27:03 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 12:27:03 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052265.23782.11416351116529578816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- nanda chandran wrote: > If you want to make a meaningful argument please do not quote (at least in > bits) from secondary authors. If you'd produced arguments to show that > Ramayanam is later than Tamil literature which value chastity and also show > that there's no pre Ramayanam literature which didn't value chastity, then > the argument will be more effective. Notion of Chastity in Tamil sangam poems is of paramount importance: Sangam poems mostly (> 90%) describe `interior landscape' (love) poems. In the Tamil poetics of Tolkaappiyam, Life is divided into interior/love/akam and exterior/puRam components. In Tamil "interior" poems, love is described with such a class and finesse. Ladies' chastity is praised all the time. Not even one instance of group orgies or a girl desiring several men - in direct contradistinction to some poems from gAthasaptasati or vajjalakam. In Sangam poems, chastity is only for women, they sometimes worry about men going to dAsis. Five centuries later, Thiruvalluvar places Chastity (kaRpu) as common for both women and men. "orumai makaLirE pOlap perumaiyum tan2n2aittAn2 koNTozukin2 uNTu". Later Kamban in his masterpiece of the Ramayana and Bharatiyar in this century emphasize chastity for men too. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Sep 15 17:16:13 1999 From: 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 13:16:13 -0400 Subject: (Fwd) Tibet Journal 16 (1991), No. 2, pp. 91-94 Message-ID: <161227052256.23782.302992591538487095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please inform Jan Filipsky or Prof. Kolmas from the Czech Republic that a copy of the article from the Tibet Journal 199, which they requested on the Indology list, is on its way. With best regards, Ulrich T. Kragh Asien Instituttet University of Copenhagen. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 15 20:54:20 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 13:54:20 -0700 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052270.23782.3534909241232174486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>May be due to Sanskritized thinking, some English writers >>render Tamil "ka.n.naki" as kannagi. This happens because >>they transfer all intervocalical Tamil "k"s into "g"s >>following Sanskrit k, kh, g, gh series. However, Tamils >>pronounce her as something like kaNNahi. N. S. Raja writes: >You will also find plenty of Tamils >pronouncing Tamil "ka.n.naki" as "kaNNagi". >As for how people write it in English, >here are the results from searching >on Altavista (http://www.altavista.com/): >Search for: Number of web pages found: >-------------------------------------------- >+kannagi 162 >+kannaki 29 >+kannahi 3 All this altavista search shows is that the altavista database consists of a majority writing about kaNNaki are educated in english medium schools and hail from cities like Madras. Establishment newspapers in English render kaNNaki as kaNNagi, and this in turn, spreads the kaNNagi usage. I have even heard "akanAnURu", a sangam text pronounced (wrongly) as "aganAnURu" instead of "ahanAnURu"! Effect of wrong transliteration into English and then, that spelling spoken as such. It will be better if kaNNaki gets written as such. On 4-Mar-98, Dr. Palaniappan wrote a response to Dr. Vidyasankar, VS<< In the kuRaL, kaRka kacaTaRa kaRpavai kaRRapin niRka ataRkut taka, my Tamil teacher distinctly enunciated D (for T), d (for t) and g (for k). And his pronunciation of the word "english" was something like "inkilis" - where k was substituted for g - suggesting that his English pronunciation was affected by his native Tamil, ..>> SP>I am surprised that a non-brahmin from Madurai pronounced "taka" >as "taga" instead of something like "taha". The intervocalic "g" is more a >characteristic of northern Tamilnadu. (I grew up in Madurai Dt. with a good >bit of exposure to Tirunelveli dialect at home.) May >be his language has been influenced by other dialects. Apart from this, the >phenomenon you are describing is not only in contemporary speech but has >been for a very long time, from the beginning of writing in Tamil. Tamil >orthography has made use of predictable rules of pronunciation and done >away with a lot of voiced >consonants. Note that "taka" in the TirukkuRaL beginning with kaRka ... is spoken as "taha". The word "English" is rendered into tamil as "iGkilis". Because of the nasal G in "iGkilis", the "ki" following "G" is spoken as "gi". Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 15 21:02:09 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 14:02:09 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052273.23782.9068166494844920473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Mathuresan writes : >And note that (if I remember right) Thiruvalluvar himself chides brAhmanas >against being too restrictive with their women, which indirectly reflects >the Arya worldview with respect to chastity. >>This is something new I have not heard of. Is there a quote? I was just quoting from memory. If I remember right Thiruvalluvar uses the word "pAppAn" for brAhmana. I don't have my copy with me at present, so am unable to give you the exact verse. >In Tamil "interior" poems, love is described with such a class >and finesse. Ladies' chastity is praised all the time. Not even one >instance of group orgies or a girl desiring several men - in direct >contradistinction to some poems from gAthasaptasati or vajjalakam. I'm not familiar with these texts or their popularity. Are they Tantric texts? For an Arya view why don't you refer to popular Bauddha, JainA texts or even the Manusmriti for its views on chastity, rather than some obscure texts? This is like some European who stumbled upon the Khajraho and immediately made a blanket statement that Hinduism is immoral! Samskrutam literature was developed over a very large geographical area and each of these areas had its own influences. So Tantric sexual views needn't necessarily be interpreted as the general Arya view. It's infact only an exception rather than the rule, even inside Tantra itself. Almost all the traditional schools enjoin control - especially in matters carnal. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ Wed Sep 15 16:19:57 1999 From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 18:19:57 +0200 Subject: (Fwd) Tibet Journal 16 (1991), No. 2, pp. 91-94 Message-ID: <161227052252.23782.4701509315595538477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Esteemed Netters, I post this message on behalf of Prof. J. Kolmas, Tibetan scholar and Director of the Oriental Institute who asked me to approach Indology members and to ask anybody with access to past issues of Tibet Journal kindly to send a photocopy of the following review article to the Institute's address below: Karma Gyatsho, "Shakabpa (1908-1989): A Brief Biography", Tibet Journal, Vol. 16, No. 2 (1991), pp. 91-94. Needless to say, we will gladly reimburse any costs involved. Gratefully Yours J.F. Jan Filipsky, PhD. Oriental Institute Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8 The Czech Republic phone ++4202/6605 3729 home: U Pentlovky 466/7, 181 00 Praha 8 phone ++4202/855 74 53 From pf at CIX.CO.UK Wed Sep 15 17:31:00 1999 From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (Peter Flugel) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 18:31:00 +0100 Subject: Burma: Buddhism & archaeology (1/2) In-Reply-To: <007c01befc29$78173c80$0f00a8c0@lpsdomain> Message-ID: <161227052263.23782.12586667382402961639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks Gustaaf, Terrific stuff this is. Let's make it a point to definitely meet in October. I'll be busy till then. yours Peter PS Which language dis you speak with this man in front of the library? From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 02:26:38 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 19:26:38 -0700 Subject: Atheism in early Vaisesika Message-ID: <161227052280.23782.7833603047144628037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While the theistic nature of the Padartha Dharma Samgraha (aka Prastapada Bhasya) of Prasastapada is very clear, it appears that Vaisesika school was quite inclined towards agnosticism in its older days. The curious account of Vaiseshika given in the Sariraka Bhasya (B.S. 2.2.12-15) of Bhagvatpada Samkara stems from the now lost Ravana Bhasya on Vaisesika Sutras. This is made clear in the Prakatarthavivarana of Anubhutisvarupacharya (~12th Cent C.E). The Prakatarthavivarana also states that the Ravana Bhashya was an ancient work, in contrast to the popular account of Vaisesika (= Prastapada Bhashya) which was a later revision. In the Yuktidipika (~7th Cent. C.E.)too, it is alleged that the Vaisesikas imported the notion of Isvara from the Pasupatas (and a glance at the mangalasholakas and the account of creation given in the Prastapada Bhashya clearly indicates the Saivite affiliations of Prasastapada). The following articles are relevant in this regard: (Please obtain complete, accurate references from the Bibliography of Karl H. Potter): 1. 'Ravana Bhashya' by Mahamahopadhyaya Vidyavacaspati S. Kuppuswami Sastri in JOR 2. 'God's arrival in the Vaisesika System' by Johannes Brknhorst in the Journal of Indian Philosophy (see the years 1990-1997 or refer Potter's bibliography for complete reference)---> The only thing I disagree here is Dr. Bronkhorst's assertion (openning sentence) that the sutras themselves do not refer to God. ----Original Message Follows---- From: george9252 Subject: Re: civilizational ardour Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:39:19 -0400 As a mere "auditor" on the List, I am a bit reluctant to add anything here; but I thought that this might be relevant to the discussion, so here goes: In his Commentary on the Vedanta Sutras, Adhyaya II, Pada 2, 12-15, Shamkara (Shankara) argues that the Vaisheshikas cannot account for the motion of the atoms or even show that such motion is possible, and ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Wed Sep 15 14:06:43 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 19:36:43 +0530 Subject: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. In-Reply-To: <199909112019.BAA10224@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227052240.23782.3377489304001350264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 11 Sep 1999 13:23:57 PDT, Namrata Bose wrote: > I read the article by Rajaram and Zydenbos whose links were given by > Zydenbos. I am shocked by the levels to which Zydenbos can stoop to deny the > demeaning statements he levelled. The meaning of his words is so clear. I > wonder if such articles were written by Zydenbos when 42 temples were > destroyed in Kashmir [...] Sorry, just as I am not a Padre, I am not a Mian either. I am simply a fellow who is concerned about academic freedom and is appalled by attempts by certain individuals to close the minds of others. E.g., Dr. Elst denouncing me on his website for referring to "white" authors (including Nehru, and apparently D.D. Kosambi too, whom he conveniently omits from my list), which he calls the "game of over-awing the Indians". Why don't you do something similar? Instead of trying to find out my religious affiliation, simply say that I'm "white" (whether that is really true doesn't matter; and in some discussions, nobody cares). Then declare that anti-"white"-racialism is basically anti- racism, as Elst did, and you can believe that you're all right. It's very easy. RZ From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Wed Sep 15 23:39:19 1999 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 19:39:19 -0400 Subject: civilizational ardour Message-ID: <161227052275.23782.4357320161296015033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As a mere "auditor" on the List, I am a bit reluctant to add anything here; but I thought that this might be relevant to the discussion, so here goes: In his Commentary on the Vedanta Sutras, Adhyaya II, Pada 2, 12-15, Shamkara (Shankara) argues that the Vaisheshikas cannot account for the motion of the atoms or even show that such motion is possible, and in doing so Shamkara seems to see Vaisheshika atomism as non-theistic. Apparently, Shamkara's criticisms are directed at the Vaisheshika Sutras of Kanada (c. 3rd century AD) and perhaps at some of the early commentators on Kanada such as Shamkara Misra and Candrakanta (4th century AD?). "Kanada . . . does not mention God, but later commentators [perhaps in response to criticisms like Shamkara's] felt that the immutable atoms could not by themselves produce an ordered universe unless a presiding God regulated their activities" (Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan and Charles A. Moore [eds.], A Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy [Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1957], p. 386). In the later Vaisheshika (and Nyaya) commentaries (such as those of Shridara and Udayana [10th century AD]), God [Brahman, Brahma, Ishvara, etc.] is the original source or first cause from which arises the adrishta ("unseen principle") that initiates the motion of the atoms, which, in turn, leads to the creation, sustenance, and dissolution of worlds, all in accordance with the will of God. ----- Original Message ----- From: nanda chandran To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 11:56 AM Subject: Re: civilizational ardour > Vidhya writes : > > >Both early NyAya and the Vaiseshika had no place for a creator God >and for > >them too, it's the knowledge of the Self which is the >liberator. > > >>Nyaya without a creator God??? Textual sources? > > Maybe I'm mistaken. > > Early Vaiseshika definitely didn't support a creator, till it found that it > needed one to mobilize its atoms for world creation. > > NyAya is much later than Vaiseshika. So it may be that NyAya did have a God > in its scheme of things even in the beginning. > > My text on NyAya has the SUtrAs together with the bhAshyam and vArtikam. > Having read the Vaiseshika first I was of the opinion the same followed with > NyAya. Let me check it up. Or if you can clarify, all the better. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 02:49:15 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 19:49:15 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052282.23782.16980634382708659942.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: "Kapilar, a brAhman, enjoys eating meat and drinking liquor while partyingwith Kings. He sings about these parties several centuries beforeThiruvalluvar. Comparable with Yajnavalkya relishing fatty beaf in SB." Vishal replies: Clearly, Mr. Madhuresan is referring to Shatpatha Brahman 3.1.2.21 ("Asnamyeva aham amsalam chedabhavati iti") In their 'Vedic Index', MacDonnel and Keith mistranslate it (as is usual with most of their works) and state--"The great sage Yajnavalkya was wont to eat the meat of milch cows and bullocks if only it was amsala ('firm' or 'tender')" The translation and its interpretation is totally wrong and a look at the context (and also the Sayana Bhashya) suggests that Yajnavalkya meant milk and milk products, not meat. For details, refer pg 212-214 of the following anonymous work : "A review of 'Beef in Ancient India' " published by Geeta Press, Gorakhpur (1971) Many similar passages in the Vedic literature are considered in this booklet and their correct meaning ascertained with the help of Vyakarana, Ayurveda etc. As the situation stands today, surveys show (quoting from memory--no references available) that of all the Indian states, Gujarat and Uttar Pradesh have the highest proportion of Vegetarians. Tamil Nadu comes way behind after several other states. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Wed Sep 15 23:49:49 1999 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 99 19:49:49 -0400 Subject: civilizational ardour Message-ID: <161227052278.23782.14602134974904117340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops! Forgot to identify myself. Dr. George Cronk Chair, Dept. of Philosophy & Religion Bergen Community College Paramus, New Jersey (USA) ----- Original Message ----- From: george9252 To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 7:39 PM Subject: Re: civilizational ardour As a mere "auditor" on the List, I am a bit reluctant to add anything here; but I thought that this might be relevant to the discussion, so here goes: In his Commentary on the Vedanta Sutras, Adhyaya II, Pada 2, 12-15, Shamkara (Shankara) argues that the Vaisheshikas cannot account for the motion of the atoms or even show that such motion is possible, and in doing so Shamkara seems to see Vaisheshika atomism as non-theistic. Apparently, Shamkara's criticisms are directed at the Vaisheshika Sutras of Kanada (c. 3rd century AD) and perhaps at some of the early commentators on Kanada such as Shamkara Misra and Candrakanta (4th century AD?). "Kanada . . . does not mention God, but later commentators [perhaps in response to criticisms like Shamkara's] felt that the immutable atoms could not by themselves produce an ordered universe unless a presiding God regulated their activities" (Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan and Charles A. Moore [eds.], A Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy [Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1957], p. 386). In the later Vaisheshika (and Nyaya) commentaries (such as those of Shridara and Udayana [10th century AD]), God [Brahman, Brahma, Ishvara, etc.] is the original source or first cause from which arises the adrishta ("unseen principle") that initiates the motion of the atoms, which, in turn, leads to the creation, sustenance, and dissolution of worlds, all in accordance with the will of God. ----- Original Message ----- From: nanda chandran To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 11:56 AM Subject: Re: civilizational ardour > Vidhya writes : > > >Both early NyAya and the Vaiseshika had no place for a creator God >and for > >them too, it's the knowledge of the Self which is the >liberator. > > >>Nyaya without a creator God??? Textual sources? > > Maybe I'm mistaken. > > Early Vaiseshika definitely didn't support a creator, till it found that it > needed one to mobilize its atoms for world creation. > > NyAya is much later than Vaiseshika. So it may be that NyAya did have a God > in its scheme of things even in the beginning. > > My text on NyAya has the SUtrAs together with the bhAshyam and vArtikam. > Having read the Vaiseshika first I was of the opinion the same followed with > NyAya. Let me check it up. Or if you can clarify, all the better. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hart at POLBOX.COM Thu Sep 16 06:15:41 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 08:15:41 +0200 Subject: fwd: Warsaw International Conference on Sanskrit and Related Studies In-Reply-To: <009101beffd5$00a84fe0$61830a3f@win95> Message-ID: <161227052284.23782.11724909283274620452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 17:06:09 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 10:06:09 -0700 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052288.23782.15059037284384658750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N Ganesan writes : >>May be due to Sanskritized thinking, some English writers >>render Tamil "ka.n.naki" as kannagi. This happens because >>they transfer all intervocalical Tamil "k"s into "g"s >>following Sanskrit k, kh, g, gh series. However, Tamils >>pronounce her as something like kaNNahi. Even in the Tamil movie PoompuhAr in which the highly Tamizh literate actress Vijayakumari acted as Kannagi (and killed us with her overacting :-), if I remember right, didn't pronounce it as Kannahi, but only Kannagi. Actually my mother once pointed out Samskrutam alphabets in Tamizh. I think the "sha" in kashtam (trouble) or nashtam (loss) is of Samskrutam origin and is not an original Tamizh alphabet. Similarly if I remember right the "ha" is also not of Tamizh origin, but borrowed from Samskrutam. (Can Tamil scholars confirm if the alphabet features in ancient Tamizh words and not as a noun?). The "ha" is very prominent in Samskrutam - sam(h)Aram, gra(h)anam etc. Both the "ha" and "sha" feature heavily in brAhmanic Tamizh which incorporates Samskrutam liberally with Tamizh. So Kanna(h)i? And is this the way CilappathikAram has it? If so, the name of the heroine of CilappathikAram may itself not be of Tamizh origin! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 18:26:31 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 11:26:31 -0700 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052292.23782.1621105530231833218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N Ganesan writes : >>May be due to Sanskritized thinking, some English writers >>render Tamil "ka.n.naki" as kannagi. This happens because >>they transfer all intervocalical Tamil "k"s into "g"s >>following Sanskrit k, kh, g, gh series. However, Tamils >>pronounce her as something like kaNNahi. NC>Even in the Tamil movie PoompuhAr in which the highly Tamizh >literate actress Vijayakumari acted as Kannagi (and killed us >with her overacting :-), if I remember right, didn't pronounce >it as Kannahi, but only Kannagi. Note that the town, puumpukaar is pronounced as puumpuhaar; This is in your post itself; In a similar manner, kaNNaki is pronounced as kaNNahi. Pl. refer to Prof. Bh. Krishnamurti's posting where he says Skt. kalaha is possibly of Dravidian origin. If so, ta. kalakam gives birth to skt. kalaha. k->h. Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 >Mayrhofer EWA (new ed. 1986-1996, of his etym. dict. of Skt) vol. I p. 321 >says : >kalaha-- Up.+, kalahin- GRhyaSUtra, Up., "not explained"; >and refers to older Drav. and Munda explanations, in part >onomatopoetic. [...] BhK>I think *kal represents several homophonous roots giving rise to BhK>different groups of words: 'noise' (1302), 'mix, join' (1299), BhK> 'learn'(1297), 'stone' (1298),'to accrue, grow' (1300, 1310), BhK> 'disturb, agitate,stir up, quarrel' (1303) BhK>[both Skt. kalaha- and kalu.sa- seem to belong here]. MW>>Last point : if kala- is onomatopoetic, the Tamil etc word kalApa >>'peacock feather/tail ' may, just may be a loan translation from >>Munda where mara('k) 'peacock' belongs to the root 'to cry'. BhK>Burrow (1948) gives the meaning 'bundle' as the basis of semantic BhK>connection with 'peacock's tail' and compares it with Ta. Ma. Ka. BhK>kalappu'collection of things, mass' etc.(1299). Nanda Candran: <<< Actually my mother once pointed out Samskrutam alphabets in Tamizh. I think the "sha" in kashtam (trouble) or nashtam (loss) is of Samskrutam origin and is not an original Tamizh alphabet. Similarly if I remember right the "ha" is also not of Tamizh origin, but borrowed from Samskrutam. (Can Tamil scholars confirm if the alphabet features in ancient Tamizh words and not as a noun?). The "ha" is very prominent in Samskrutam - sam(h)Aram, gra(h)anam etc. Both the "ha" and "sha" feature heavily in brAhmanic Tamizh which incorporates Samskrutam liberally with Tamizh. So Kanna(h)i? And is this the way CilappathikAram has it? If so, the name of the heroine of CilappathikAram may itself not be of Tamizh origin! >>> Now, you are saying that kaNNaki is not a Tamil?! Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Thu Sep 16 15:51:23 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. (Selva) Selvakumar) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 11:51:23 -0400 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227052286.23782.18272769504722454855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bharat Gupt wrote: > C.R. Selvakumar wrote: > > > Tamil music, a branch of which today is called Carnatic > > music, is more than 2000 years old but in the last 50-60 > years, > > there is undoubtedly a tendency to sing mostly the 'Trinity's > > krithis and there are also a large number of brAhmana > exponents. > > The art of Carnatic music is in no small measure advanced by > > great Naagasuram players none of whom is a brAhmana (except may > be one > > or two who are not exponents anyway). > > In short what you are claiming is a gross distortion. > > The Aryan-Dravidian debate need uphold the lower caste of Nagasuram > players as > a repository of Tamil originality of Caranatic music. > > Music, by the way, is not the literary content of vocal compositions, > whether it be the > kritis of South or bandish or prabandhas of North. Music of every > region also is a > grammatical system. All Indian musical scales "melas" of South and > "thaats" of North are > classifications made after the Turkish invasion and a strong > conditioning by the > Arabic/Iranian maqam system (derived from the "harmonai" of Greeks) > of twelve notes is > not ruled out. I did not just mean the language used in the songs ('kritis'), be assured of this. Although almost all native populations have inspiring music and dance of some form or other , the understanding of music, in a technical sense, and developing musical scales and systems is totally a different thing. It is my understanding, which I am willing to correct if substantive evidence is shown, that Tamils developed such scales and systems of high order before 'Arya' or for that matter any other people of the world. Cilappathikaaram and still earlier works like tolkAkkiyam, the puRanAnURu talk about these and the commentaries talk about purely musicology books in Tamil. It does not make any sense to claim that it happened after Turkish incursion etc. ! > The ancient Indian system of Graama-murcchanaa classification > (followed in toto by > Chilapadikaram) prevailed in the North and the South as well till 13th > century > approximately. I would appreciate it if you can show the evidence from cilappatikaaram and your Sanskrit sources for the Graama-murcchanaa classification. It is a fact that the concept of paN is known in Tamil from at least as early as 300-500 B.C.E and more than 9200 songs with paN are sung in the tEvAram and thiruvAcakam (they are available even today) since at least from 1000 C.E (though they were sung, not recited, since 600-700 C.E at least). There were also earlier exponents. There is a live tradition of OtuvAr spanning more than 800 years. What I mentioned here is only a subset of the musical traditions in Tamil. There had been a continuous musical tradition spanning more than 2300 years as evident from the Tamil literature until the emergence of fascisitic 'subha culture' of Chennai. Now can you please show me 100 songs sung with Raaga in Sanskrit ? Say that is as old as tEvAram (600- 700 C.E). Are there lullabies in Sanskrit ? Or are there in Sanskrit what are known as Oppari's (dirge) ? As I understand the word Raaga itself occurs first only in Matanga's Brhaddesi (of 8th century C.E. ) which is again supposed to be about folk music (desi raagas). Compare this with paN in Tamil. Sanksrit works including the Natyasastra are heavily based on Tamil systems. Tamils are the originators of the 7-note system known today as sa, ri, ga, ma, pa, da, ni. The Arya system had only 5 or 6 notes and not 7 until they adopted Tamil system. Even the sanskrit word Shandjam for the first note shows that it is born out of 6 (notes). >Even the ancient Indian system shows deep parallels with the Greek system. > Originality and separate identity, Tamil or Northen Aryan is not so > easy to locate. May not be easy, but it is there. See above. Tamil musical system is independent and ancient. Tamils from from very ancient times considered their 'culture' in terms of the triad 'iyal-icai-kUtttu' (literature-music-dance) and they are proud of their numerous art forms and crafts. The sad thing is it is being put down or sidelined or marginalized or portayed to be a less important subset of the Aryan 'fold'. But I believe time will tell the merits, calibre and contributions of Tamils. C.R. Selvakumar > Bharat Gupt > Associate Prof. Delhi Univ. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 19:15:50 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 12:15:50 -0700 Subject: Q: mahila Message-ID: <161227052294.23782.13167371538393279311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Esteemed Indologists, Have read that skt. mahila/mahIla(=female) is of Dravidian roots; Compare with tamil "makaL" = daughter, female. makaL is pronounced as mahaL. Grateful for those who give the reference. Is it by Burrow or Emeneau? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 17:29:34 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 13:29:34 -0400 Subject: Posting of computer, transliteration and font etc. questions to Indology Message-ID: <161227052290.23782.14200855022899471531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, One of the areas that I am involved in is helping produce books for production that contain roman transliteration and/or devanagari text and I have found the Indology list and archives invaluable in providing information on fonts, standards, packages, cross-platform problems etc. and by the number of entries in the archives on this area it seems that many other members are also interested in this. For example Prof. Aklujkar's recent posting about his methodology. I've always been loath to post very specific questions on problems or solutions I encounter in this area because the number of replies would clog the bandwidth and the answers would probably not be of interest to the majority of list members. (I'm talking about very specific questions such as "Using font x with operating system y when I send it over the net to operating system z wierd thing abc happens" etc.) It occured to me that if enough members were interested we could set up a chat room for this purpose. Almost an on-line timely mutual help facility for this purpose. One idea I had about the way it might work is: If someone had a computer, font, or transliteration question that needed a timely answer and some mutual question/answer dialogue was probably needed then they could send a very short posting to Indology letting them know there was a new question in the chat room. Those members interested in this could then correspond thru the chat room without worrying about clogging Indology's bandwidth even if it took many back and forth messages to solve the problem. 1) Perhaps Dominik could say whether he feels this is appropriate for the Indology list. 2) If other members are interested perhaps they could indicate this or if they have another idea. Yours, Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 22:02:11 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 15:02:11 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227052307.23782.1641450221260660741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "C.R. (Selva) Selvakumar" wrote: > > I would appreciate it if you can show the evidence from >cilappatikaaram and your Sanskrit sources for the >Graama-murcchanaa classification. It is difficult to say who is indebted to whom, but see descriptions of vaTTappAlai and kural tiripu, of which the latter is the same thing as the grAma-mUrcchanA, musically speaking. Unfortunately, most of the direct musical references can only be traced to the commentary of aTiyArkkunallAr, and not to the cilappatikAram itself. vaTTappAlai is unique to the Tamil texts, as far as I know, and once you attach relative frequency values to notes, it gives slightly different results as compared to the other technique. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 22:36:51 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 15:36:51 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052310.23782.1595526957298103297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >By the way Sita's chastity was given a new dimension in medieval times in >India,by saying that Ravana was able to abduct only the maayaa Sita not the >real Sita. Valmiki makes no such apology. >However, the Greeks have a >tradition as old as Euripides >who postulates that a maayaa Helen was abducted by Paris not the real one. >So is the supra-chastity notion of the deep South or the far North? Yes, Sita's chastity was given a new dimension in the South. By Kamban in his Ramayana. Ravana could never touch Sita, he digs deep into the soil and carries away the earth. Best, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Thu Sep 16 20:12:23 1999 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 16:12:23 -0400 Subject: Posting of computer, transliteration and font etc. questions to Indology Message-ID: <161227052296.23782.14002572081331737228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 9/16/99 1:30:32 PM, harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM writes: >One idea I had about the way it might work is: If >someone had a computer, font, or transliteration question that needed >a timely answer and some mutual question/answer dialogue was probably needed >then they could send a very short posting to Indology letting them know >there was a new question in the chat room. Those members interested in >this could then correspond thru the chat room without worrying about clogging >Indology's bandwidth even if it took many back and forth messages to solve >the problem. > >1) Perhaps Dominik could say whether he feels this is appropriate for the Indology list. > >2) If other members are interested perhaps they could indicate this or >if they have another idea. I, too, find these issues more important than acrimonious debates about you-know-what. It seems they should fall within the scope of this list. However, if they do not, maybe a separate forum, perhaps called _Indological Publishing_ would be in order? It could deal with all facets of the process: 1) Computers: fonts, keyboard layouts, operating systems, transliteration standards, etc. 2) Sources: locating critical (and other) editions, locating previous translations, resolving copyright questions, etc. 3) Translations: requesting and receiving help with difficult passages, etc. 4) Other: perhaps also a meeting place for translators, authors, publishers, editors, etc. Excluded would be all topics extraneous to preparing and publishing Indological works. That's my two cents for now. Brian -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 00:05:41 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 17:05:41 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052314.23782.10803046469896549205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Respected Dr. Thompson, I have indeed referred the list archives for posts pertaining to meating eating in Vedic texts. So please be more specific. And why not refer to the book that I mentioned before criticizing me? As for being politically correct, suffice it to say that Sayana and others never denied the slaughter of animals in Yajnas. Yes, several Acharyas (like Sri Madhvacharya) strongly advocated the use of replicas etc.) Others, like Sri Ramanujacharya, too acknowledged the slaughter of animals in Yajnas but preferred to substitute it with Prapatti. Even to this day, orthodox Pundits do declare that slaughter of animals is an integral part of Srauta ritual (although they take shelter of texts like the Parashar Smriti to say that this falls in the 'Kalivarjya' category). Refer, for instance the massive 'Vedartha Parijata' of Swami Karapatri. It is you who is reading wide meanings in my post. I never denied or affirmed anything on the prevelance or non prevalance of meat eating per se in the Vedic period. My post merely concerned that particular passage of Shatapath Brahman. Else I also know what is written in the Katyayana Srauta Sutras or the Taittiriya Brahman etc. I dont know what you mean by 'these days' because I posted my messages after a long time. If you can see adulation of Godse in some article, and threats in my message where they do not exist, it is clear who is prejudiced and close minded and who is not. If you are referring to the private discussions that Dr. Witzel forced on me by bombarding my mailbox with unsolicited posts, then reference to these is better made in that private discussion, not in this public forum. May we expect some better academic stuff from you rather than personal remarks? ----Original Message Follows---- From: George Thompson Subject: Re: Tamil Heritage Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:34:05 EDT Bold unsubstantiated remarks like this come pouring forth so frequently from Vishal Agarwal these days that I seldom stop to comment. But, purely by chance, this one caught my eye. I see no reason to reject the interpretation of Macdonell and Keith in this matter. The native tradition has been trying to re-interpret Yajnavalkya's remark ever since he made it. By all means, please, look at the context again. ZB 3.2.1.21 becomes *pointless* if we interpret *aMsala'* as a reference to milk products. Yajnavalya's iconoclasm is, so to say, *emasculated* by such an obviously 'politically correct' re-interpretation of Yajnavalkya's remark. Yajnayalkya was a free-thinker and a meat-eater and a man with a refreshing sense of humor. Vishal Agarwal in the past has urged us to search the list's archives for previous discussions. I recommend the same procedure to him. Anyone who denies that the eating of meat was common practice in the Vedic period is, well, impenetrable. Best wishes, George Thompson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 00:33:32 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 17:33:32 -0700 Subject: civilizational ardour Message-ID: <161227052316.23782.1683913761515366903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: > >My text on NyAya has the SUtrAs together with the bhAshyam and vArtikam. >Having read the Vaiseshika first I was of the opinion the same followed >with >NyAya. Let me check it up. Or if you can clarify, all the better. Although the two systems are extremely close to each other in content and in history of development, nyAya is not parasitic upon vai;se.sika. It has certain independent themes and foci of discussion. Check nyAyasUtras 4. 1. 19-21, and vAtsyAyana's corresponding bhAshya, where there is a discussion of causality, bringing in the notion of I;svara. It has been said that it is difficult to identify what is the pUrvapak.sa and what is the siddhAnta in this portion of the sUtras, but vAtsyAyana offers one plausible interpretation. It is also often forgotten that the sUtras themselves have a history of philosophical argumentation behind them. Whether it is the objector or the author of the sUtras who argues for I;svara, the fact remains that in its very beginnings, nyAya thought discusses this issue. Of course, one should not expect an argument for monotheism, as such an expectation is quite prejudicial to a fair description of early nyAya. In later times, it is udayana, the naiyyAyika, who provides some of the most extensive arguments for the existence of I;svara. See also sUtras 4. 1. 59-60, where the age-old concept of .r.na-traya is discussed, in the context of mok.sa. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From SSRVJ at AOL.COM Thu Sep 16 21:35:21 1999 From: SSRVJ at AOL.COM (Somayaji Rajagopala) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 17:35:21 -0400 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052305.23782.11037103334418854294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 9/16/99 4:04:40 PM EST, abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN writes: << The distinction for women as kulavadhuus (meant for akam) and vaarivadhuus (puram) is found in the all post Vedic Sanskrit vaangamaya. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- Kulavaduu is Not Aham and Vaarivadhuu is Not Puram---the equivalents of 4 Purushaarthas-Dharmam-Artham-Kaamam-Moksham(in Sanskrit)-are- Aram-Porul-Inbham-Veedu(in Tamil)---Inbham(Kaamam)is Aham(canbe shared exclusive between the two only)--Artham/Moksham are Puram(can be shared with outside world ) .Aram(Dharmam) is common to both Aham and Puram.The syllable Kaamam does not have the same connotation in Tamil as it has in Sanskrit.Thiruvalluvar has divided his 1330 verses of Thirukural into 3 parts only to discuss Aram(Dharmam)-Porul(Artham) and Inbham(Kaaamam).He does not discuss about Veedu(Moksham)-this has been discussed very elaborately in many Research Works.He just devotes 10 verses for Initial Prayer.Tamil language can very independently stand without any support what so ever from Sanskrit language-it is so rich in vocabulary. From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 22:07:23 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 18:07:23 -0400 Subject: Posting of computer, transliteration and font etc. questions to Indology Message-ID: <161227052308.23782.934023372736747137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Brian Akers wrote: ...maybe a separate forum, perhaps called _Indological >Publishing_ would be in order? It could deal with all facets of the >process: > >1) Computers: fonts, keyboard layouts, operating systems, transliteration >standards, etc. > >2) Sources: locating critical (and other) editions, locating previous >translations, resolving copyright questions, etc. > >3) Translations: requesting and receiving help with difficult passages, >etc. > >4) Other: perhaps also a meeting place for translators, authors, >publishers, >editors, etc. > >Excluded would be all topics extraneous to preparing and publishing >Indological works. > >That's my two cents for now. > >Brian > Dear Brian: My idea was not to set up a different list from Indology but to come up with a way to have detailed technical discussions on the above topics without clogging up Indology's bandwidth and still letting the list members know that a particular topic was being discussed. Thus I thought that a method would be to (if enough members are interested) to set up an auxilary chat room almost like an on-line help line. So if I'm having say some strange problem with my sanskrit text being garbled by software xyz or font abc isn't working etc. I post a short simple message on Indology like "Having problem with software please see details on Indology-computer-problem chat room" and then anybody interested could respond or monitor and if there was general interest a summary of solution could be posted to Indology. Yours, Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Sep 16 23:34:05 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 19:34:05 -0400 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052312.23782.2569806549800211222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 9/15/99 10:50:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Vishal replies: Clearly, Mr. Madhuresan is referring to Shatpatha Brahman > 3.1.2.21 ("Asnamyeva aham amsalam chedabhavati iti") > In their 'Vedic Index', MacDonnel and Keith mistranslate it (as is usual > with most of their works) and state--"The great sage Yajnavalkya was wont to > eat the meat of milch cows and bullocks if only it was amsala ('firm' or > 'tender')" > The translation and its interpretation is totally wrong and a look at the > context (and also the Sayana Bhashya) suggests that Yajnavalkya meant milk > and milk products, not meat. Bold unsubstantiated remarks like this come pouring forth so frequently from Vishal Agarwal these days that I seldom stop to comment. But, purely by chance, this one caught my eye. I see no reason to reject the interpretation of Macdonell and Keith in this matter. The native tradition has been trying to re-interpret Yajnavalkya's remark ever since he made it. By all means, please, look at the context again. ZB 3.2.1.21 becomes *pointless* if we interpret *aMsala'* as a reference to milk products. Yajnavalya's iconoclasm is, so to say, *emasculated* by such an obviously 'politically correct' re-interpretation of Yajnavalkya's remark. Yajnayalkya was a free-thinker and a meat-eater and a man with a refreshing sense of humor. Vishal Agarwal in the past has urged us to search the list's archives for previous discussions. I recommend the same procedure to him. > For details, refer pg 212-214 of the following anonymous work : "A review of > 'Beef in Ancient India' " published by Geeta Press, Gorakhpur (1971) > Many similar passages in the Vedic literature are considered in this booklet > and their correct meaning ascertained with the help of Vyakarana, Ayurveda > etc. Anyone who denies that the eating of meat was common practice in the Vedic period is, well, impenetrable. Best wishes, George Thompson From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Sep 17 01:36:26 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 21:36:26 -0400 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052318.23782.17097843497959744506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> narayan S. Raja said: > Anyway, though, drawing conclusions > about "linguistic nationalism" from one > of the least important characters in > "silappadhikaram" seems to be questionable. Conclusions regarding Tamil nationalism in cilappatikAram are not based on mATalan2 alone. Tamil nationalism is present in the whole third book of cilappatikAram if not in the other two books as well. The reasons for discussing mATalan2 were the questions in the thread as to whether brahmins are Tamils. iLagkO?s inclusion of brahmins in the Tamil nation is clear. In this context, let me quote how Prof. Mitchell Cohen opens his book "Zion & State" by saying: p.17 The situation of the Tamils was similar. That is why I quoted Zvelebil who called cilappatikAram "the first consciously national work of Tamil lterature, the literary evidence of the fact that the Tamils had by that time attained nationhood. " (The Smile of Murugan, p. 172) I shall let other scholars decide on the nationalism found in Tulasidas' work. In any case, originally I did not intend to write such a detailed review of "Passions of the Tongue". However, I saw one member writing, "I am quite unable to see that her book is harmful to the pursuit of knowledge. I am afraid that the difference between Ramaswamy and Rajaram is the difference between a professional, even brilliant scholar and a hack political propagandist." I felt that such an assessment of Ramaswamy arose probably because of a lack of knowledge regarding the Tamil literary tradition among some. I also felt that Ramaswamy's work highlighted the gap in the USA that seems to separate the traditional philologist-Indologists and the leftist neo-South Asianist social scientists with a negative attitude towards philologists. (to be contd.) Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Sep 17 02:56:22 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 22:56:22 -0400 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052322.23782.4845625834524526574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have presented philological evidence showing the passion of the Tamils towards Tamil that has been personified as mother, woman, and maiden from pre-fifth century cilappatikAram onwards. "Passions of the Tongue" is the epitome of what will result when one with a low regard for philology tries to map the history of attitudes towards a language with a literary tradition spanning more than two millennia. (Even the sub-title of the book "Language Devotion in Tamil India, 1891-1970" is misleading because she mentions Sri Lankan scholars many times whose views are not different from those across the Palk Straits.) To show how one could go wrong by believing what Ramaswamy says, I detailed some - not all - of the problems in the book. In the final analysis, this work is similar to that of a geographer who sets out from the Mediterranean to find the source of the Nile and map its course. He stops at Cairo and seeing many European 747s landing at Cairo airport decides that all the water in the river is being flown in from Europe. The geographer's report is highly acclaimed and he is rewarded with a university professorship and a fellowship in mapmaking! The following processes relating to Ramaswamy?s work should be of concern to Indologists in the way academia functions: 1. Given the nature of the topic, the doctoral committee at UC Berkeley (Eugene Irschick, Thomas Metcalf, and Robert Goldman) did not include a single scholar in Tamil literary tradition. 2. The favorable evaluation of the book for publication by the university press. What does this say about the review process or reviewers? 3. The hiring by the universities of Pennsylvania and Michigan possibly based on a favorable review of Ramaswamy?s work discussed here. Should Indologists wonder about the relevance of Indology in South Asian studies? As for Tamil nationalism, unfortunately, Hindu nationalists on the right and the neo-South Asianists on the left share a common distorted view of it being caused by colonialism. This is to be attributed to the very nature of nationalism which, according to James Anderson, "seeks to play down internal divisions and conflicts, partly by externalising the supposed source of problems" and because, as Mitchell Cohen said, Marxism "was particularly - though not singularly - remiss in understanding nations and nationalism". Regards S. Palaniappan From sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET Thu Sep 16 23:08:31 1999 From: sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET (S Stephen) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 23:08:31 +0000 Subject: UNIFORMITIES BETWEEN LANGUAGES IN COLOUR-NAMING Message-ID: <161227052324.23782.3827180458163909576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone please point me in the direction of any further studies done on this subject since R.M. Allott? http://www.percep.demon.co.uk/colors.htm Allott's study Thanks. sujata From sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET Thu Sep 16 23:12:55 1999 From: sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET (S Stephen) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 99 23:12:55 +0000 Subject: UNIFORMITIES BETWEEN LANGUAGES IN COLOUR-NAMING Message-ID: <161227052326.23782.4530068783124032789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> sorry, the link should read http://www.percep.demon.co.uk/colours.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: S Stephen To: Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 11:08 PM Subject: UNIFORMITIES BETWEEN LANGUAGES IN COLOUR-NAMING > Could someone please point me in the direction of any further studies done > on this subject since R.M. Allott? > > http://www.percep.demon.co.uk/colors.htm Allott's study > > Thanks. > sujata > From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Sep 17 00:24:39 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 00:24:39 +0000 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052303.23782.14311922381059679632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Notion of Chastity in Tamil sangam poems is of paramount importance: > Sangam poems mostly (> 90%) describe `interior landscape' (love) poems. > In the Tamil poetics of Tolkaappiyam, Life is divided into interior/love/akam > and exterior/puRam components. Isnt this identical with Valmikiiya Ramayana, Mahabharat, Naat.yas.aastra, Kaamsuutra, Arthas.aastra and the succeeding literature. The distinction for women as kulavadhuus (meant for akam) and vaarivadhuus (puram) is found in the all post Vedic Sanskrit vaangamaya. This distinction should not be taken as linguistic/regional but as pan Indian social behaviour. Chastity is for "family-women" only, never for men or bulls. It holds true all over India even now, even among tribals. Raama and Yudhishth.ara are icarnations of the dhrama-purushas, they are rather dull for artha and kaama, good for dharma and moksha. They eventually fail in protecting their wives. By the way Sita's chastity was given a new dimension in medieval times in India,by saying that Ravana was able to abduct only the maayaa Sita not the real Sita. Valmiki makes no such apology. However, the Greeks have a tradition as old as Euripides who postulates that a maayaa Helen was abducted by Paris not the real one. So is the supra-chastity notion of the deep South or the far North? Best wishes, Bharat Gupt Associate Professor, DU From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Sep 17 01:30:51 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 01:30:51 +0000 Subject: Aryan invasion debate Message-ID: <161227052298.23782.7340301518076406732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> C.R. (Selva) Selvakumar wrote: It is my understanding, which I am willing to correct if substantive evidence is > shown, that Tamils developed such scales and systems of high order > before 'Arya' or for that matter any other people of the > world. The questions of "before" and "Arya" are not musical subjects but issues of dfferent kind. Cilappathikaaram and still earlier works like tolkAkkiyam, the > puRanAnURu talk about these and the commentaries talk about > purely musicology books in Tamil. The musical scales or modes in the literary texts of Cilappathikaaram etc., are mere names of scales. There is no way of knowing that these names are not regional nomenclature of the grama-muurcchanaa scales. The cardinal question is : What are the oldest musicological works in Tamil detailng a musical system. If they have been translated into Hindi, Sanskrit, Gujarati or English, I would want to read them to enlargen my perspective of Indian musicology. Does Tamil have a series of musicological texts such as the sanskrit series of Naardiya Shiskha, NAtyasastra, Dattilam, Brhaddeshi, Sangeetranakara, and so on. ? > I would appreciate it if you can show the evidence from > cilappatikaaram and your Sanskrit sources for the > Graama-murcchanaa classification. I repeat that a literary reference of Cila. or Valmiki Ramayana does not explain musical systems nor does it prove their distinctivenes. For the detail study of Grama-murcchanaa, please refer to my word to word translation into English of Natyasastra Chapter 28 the Svara Adhyaaya. > It is a fact that the concept of paN is known in Tamil > from at least as early as 300-500 B.C.E and > more than 9200 songs with paN are sung in the tEvAram and > thiruvAcakam (they are available even today) I must confess that I have not heard or studied the PaN. So I cannot comment. But perhaps I can be informed if the singers of paN, train in a musical grammar different from that of "Karnataka music". Do they write a notation of these songs as differnt from the karnatak music tradition.? Do they say that these are not set to "melas" but to scales may be having same or similar names mentioned in the Cilappakm. or other texts. What i mean is, does a musical grammar also survive with these songs? > What I mentioned here is only a subset of the musical > traditions in Tamil. Now can you please show me 100 songs sung with Raaga in > Sanskrit ?YES, but they are a subset too. And no less valuable being minority tradition. Bharat Gupt From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Sep 17 02:23:29 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 02:23:29 +0000 Subject: Tamil Music Message-ID: <161227052300.23782.3789026005612836975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> C.R. (Selva) Selvakumar wrote: > There is a live tradition of OtuvAr spanning more than 800 > years. > What I mentioned here is only a subset of the musical > traditions in Tamil. > There had been a continuous musical tradition spanning more > than 2300 years > as evident from the Tamil literature until the > emergence of fascisitic 'subha culture' of Chennai. After the emergence of Pop , all classical or traditioal music in India is a "subset", the "subhaa" of Chennai or "baithak" of North are endangered species, please recognise the real fascists of commercial pop and their lullabuys. > As I understand the word Raaga itself occurs first only in > Matanga's Brhaddesi "Raaga" is first found in Natyasastr 28, meaning not scale but tonal color. > (of 8th century C.E. ) which is again supposed to be about > folk music (desi raagas).It does not mean folk music but new scales called "Grama-ragas". Brihaddeshi should be correctly translated as "Pan-geographic" For folk the sanskrit is janapadiya or gramya,not desa,desi or loka. > Sanksrit works including the Natyasastra are heavily based on > Tamil systems. If Tamil musicological works, giving details of musical systems, defining and measuring scales , notes, talas, etc, had survived, I would be very to accept this. > Tamils are the originators of the 7-note system known today as > sa, ri, ga, ma, pa, da, ni. The credit goes to Sama Veda singing and Nardiya Shiksha. Development of seven notes from Udaatta, Anudaata and Svarita is recorded matter in the Shikhas upto Abhinavagupta. (Please refer to my Translation of NS) > The Arya system had only 5 or 6 notes and not 7 until they > adopted Tamil system.This is not a musical question but of defining "Arya" and "Tamil". > Even the sanskrit word Shandjam for the first note shows that > it is born out of 6 (notes).Yes, and it also means giving birth to six. Musicologially it is explained by the ascending and descending scales in history of music. > > >Even the ancient Indian system shows deep parallels with the Greek > system. > > > Originality and separate identity, Tamil or Northen Aryan is not so > > easy to locate. > > May not be easy, but it is there. See above. Tamil musical system > is independent and ancient. Tamils from from very ancient times > considered their 'culture' > in terms of the triad 'iyal-icai-kUtttu' > (literature-music-dance) and they are proud of their > numerous art forms and crafts. I greatly admire and respect their pride, but the same concept is reiterated in the Natyasastra , Sangeetratnakara, Sangeetparijaat etc;, and even in Aristotle's Poetics. >The sad thing is it is being put > down or sidelined > or marginalized or portayed to be a less important subset of the > Aryan > 'fold'. But I believe time will tell the merits, calibre and > contributions of Tamils.The sadness arises only when cultures, regions or languages claim exclusive and independent origin, whether "Aryan", Tamil, or anyother and do not accept the interchange which is the origin and sustenance of cultures. The problem is not of culture but of its political exploitation. Bharat Gupt Associate Prof. Delhi Univ. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 12:02:23 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 05:02:23 -0700 Subject: De/Increase in USA's India interest, 1970's?? Message-ID: <161227052335.23782.10150588272550996408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The above exchange occurred on Indology today. Since my first >?serious? (?) interest in India began in 1967-70 (following >university-based anti-Vietnam non-violent action projects based on >MLKing following Gandhi following Thoreau....), my first Fulbright >there in 1971-72, I have to wonder what ?significant diminution of >interest in India? refers to, vis a vis Americans. Surely >historians cannot forget all those American Seekers (and such-like >hippies from "the West") who followed the Beatles who followed >Allen Ginsberg to India in the late 60? and 70?s, and the explosion >of interest in Gurus, Rishis, Yoga and Transcendental meditation in >the US througout the 70s. I thought this was a forum of historians, >even though Indologists!!! Dear Friends, I have a personal query. My mother's father had no son, with all daughters married away, his 7-8000 sq. ft. home was lying empty at Singanallur, Coimbatore dist. That house figures prominently in a Tamil movie called Devar Makan with Sivaji Ganesan and Kamal Hasan. Will tell later about the house which comes in the Rajnikanth movie, Ejamaan. In late 1960s, Leslie Price was living in that house. He came from Ohio. He lived at Singanallur house for years; My grandfather gave arrangements for many hunting expeditions of spotted deer, bison, and wild boar, .. in the Silent valley, Anaimalai wildlife reserves. At that time, Iravatham Mahadevan was the taluk subcollector, I do not have his address. Is Mr. Leslie Price still with Univ. of Texas history dept.? If not, how long was he there? Any chance of knowing where he lives now? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 12:58:17 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 05:58:17 -0700 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052339.23782.10765453956327652478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The following processes relating to Ramaswamy?s work should be of >concern >to Indologists in the way academia functions: >1. Given the nature of the topic, the doctoral committee at UC >Berkeley (Eugene Irschick, Thomas Metcalf, and Robert Goldman) >did not include a single scholar in Tamil literary tradition. I am indeed surprised. Why was Prof. George Hart who is right there at Berkeley not included in Ramaswamy's PhD committee? Possibly, because Hart will raise important questions. Agreeing with Prof. Thorp following the opening statement of your review of Ramaswamy's book: "Your example is a good one of "Post Colonialism" - the current faddish and hot position to take in academia if one wants to be considered as and admired as a radical thinker. Solid historical work, sadly, is considered old-fashioned and dull". Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Joperry2 at AOL.COM Fri Sep 17 11:16:54 1999 From: Joperry2 at AOL.COM (John Oliver Perry) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 07:16:54 -0400 Subject: De/Increase in USA's India interest, 1970's?? Message-ID: <161227052331.23782.2257782648640585402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Coinciding as it did with the US resumption of links with China, it led to >a significant diminution of interest in India.>> Oh really! where exactly did the EPW guys get this from? What the dear souls fail to understand is that America has invested a lot of money in trying to understand countries which are inimical to it as opposed to "friendly" The above exchange occurred on Indology today. Since my first ?serious? (?) interest in India began in 1967-70 (following university-based anti-Vietnam non-violent action projects based on MLKing following Gandhi following Thoreau....), my first Fulbright there in 1971-72, I have to wonder what ?significant diminution of interest in India? refers to, vis a vis Americans. Surely historians cannot forget all those American Seekers (and such-like hippies from "the West") who followed the Beatles who followed Allen Ginsberg to India in the late 60? and 70?s, and the explosion of interest in Gurus, Rishis, Yoga and Transcendental meditation in the US througout the 70s. I thought this was a forum of historians, even though Indologists!!! Well, to tell the truth-- and why not?-- I know the EPW remark refers to other professional historians/Indologists, and the issue has been joined around the amount of US government support of ?professional interest.? Still, I would be very surprised if indeed the numbers of (US and other "Western") students involved in studying India and classes offered (I gave a couple myself!) decreased around the ?70s. In fact, my impression is that they increased! Who can get the accurate stats, please!? ATB John Oliver Perry (Emeritus Prof, English, Tufts, Boston, USA) From kkalyan at AMAZON.CO.UK Fri Sep 17 07:54:46 1999 From: kkalyan at AMAZON.CO.UK (Ketan Kalyansingh) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 08:54:46 +0100 Subject: A few questions. Message-ID: <161227052329.23782.5531791734192909465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, It seems that everyone on this list are professors or people with very advanced knowledge in this field. I 'm just an interested individual without your skills or knowledge. I have a few questions which have bugged me for years, but I never had a great resource such as this to ask them: I read a book by a guy called P.N Oak about the true origins of the Taj Mahal, being a temple etc. Is there any truth in this? Is there any truth to the great epics Mahabharat and Ramayan and where can I get more info about archeological discoveries relating to these? Where can I get more info about the city of Dwarka discovered under the sea? I would be grateful if anyone can answer these questions for me? Thanks Ketan Kalyansingh From gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Fri Sep 17 14:31:08 1999 From: gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Gail Coelho) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 09:31:08 -0500 Subject: De/Increase in USA's India interest, 1970's?? In-Reply-To: <9d9d5c51.25137d26@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227052340.23782.9884179919105742810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:16 AM 9/17/99 -0400, you wrote: > The above exchange occurred on Indology today. Since my first ?serious? >(?) interest in India began in 1967-70 (following university-based >anti-Vietnam non-violent action projects based on MLKing following Gandhi >following Thoreau....), my first Fulbright there in 1971-72, I have to wonder >what ?significant diminution of interest in India? refers to, vis a vis >Americans. Surely historians cannot forget all those American Seekers (and >such-like hippies from "the West") who followed the Beatles who followed >Allen Ginsberg to India in the late 60? and 70?s, and the explosion of >interest in Gurus, Rishis, Yoga and Transcendental meditation in the US >througout the 70s. I thought this was a forum of historians, even though >Indologists!!! Well, the remark refers to scholarly interest in India. > > Well, to tell the truth-- and why not?-- I know the EPW remark refers to >other professional historians/Indologists, and the issue has been joined >around the amount of US government support of ?professional interest.? >Still, I would be very surprised if indeed the numbers of (US and other >"Western") students involved in studying India and classes offered (I gave a >couple myself!) decreased around the ?70s. In fact, my impression is that >they increased! Who can get the accurate stats, please!? Perhaps, the word 'interest' in the article should have been changed to 'funding'. I've been a graduate student in Linguistics in the US for the past 8 years, and my impression is that there is more funding available for studies on East Asia then on South Asia. I don't know what political and economical forces are responsible for the available funding, but there seem to be more professors who study the East Asian languages, and more grants available for research in East Asia. But, this is only an impression -- perhaps its true only of my discipline, or perhaps its just not true at all! Gail Coelho From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU Fri Sep 17 15:03:06 1999 From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 10:03:06 -0500 Subject: De/Increase in USA's India interest, 1970's?? In-Reply-To: <9d9d5c51.25137d26@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227052342.23782.12237313132022903762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Class enrollments in courses on South Asia have indeed increased on many campuses, including here at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. However, the "clientele" has changed dramatically at many of these institutions (perhaps all?). In the 60s and 70s students tended to be European-American and interested in research on South Asia. Now the bulk of the students consists of South Asian-Americans (mainly Indians) who want to know more about their roots. If the government is involved in this, then only indirectly, by removing certain restrictions on immigration and thus making possible a vastly increased influx of South Asians to the US. Hans Henrich Hock > >Coinciding as it did with the US resumption of links with China, it led to > >a significant diminution of interest in India.>> > >Oh really! where exactly did the EPW guys get this from? What the dear souls >fail to understand is that America has invested a lot of money in trying to >understand countries which are inimical to it as opposed to "friendly" > > The above exchange occurred on Indology today. Since my first ?serious? >(?) interest in India began in 1967-70 (following university-based >anti-Vietnam non-violent action projects based on MLKing following Gandhi >following Thoreau....), my first Fulbright there in 1971-72, I have to wonder >what ?significant diminution of interest in India? refers to, vis a vis >Americans. Surely historians cannot forget all those American Seekers (and >such-like hippies from "the West") who followed the Beatles who followed >Allen Ginsberg to India in the late 60? and 70?s, and the explosion of >interest in Gurus, Rishis, Yoga and Transcendental meditation in the US >througout the 70s. I thought this was a forum of historians, even though >Indologists!!! > > Well, to tell the truth-- and why not?-- I know the EPW remark refers to >other professional historians/Indologists, and the issue has been joined >around the amount of US government support of ?professional interest.? >Still, I would be very surprised if indeed the numbers of (US and other >"Western") students involved in studying India and classes offered (I gave a >couple myself!) decreased around the ?70s. In fact, my impression is that >they increased! Who can get the accurate stats, please!? > > ATB John Oliver Perry (Emeritus Prof, English, Tufts, Boston, USA) Hans Henrich Hock, Director Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies 220 International Studies Building, MC-489 910 S. Fifth Street Champaign IL 61820 217-265-5016, 217-244-7331 fax 217-333-6270 e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu ***Visit our website at: http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/ From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 19:07:12 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 12:07:12 -0700 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052345.23782.1742625926665570031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N Ganesan writes : > Note that the town, puumpukaar is pronounced as puumpuhaar; > This is in your post itself; In a similar manner, kaNNaki is > pronounced as kaNNahi. But it is a noun - the origin of which might be from anywhere. That's why I asked Tamizh scholars to give evidence whether 'ha' is part of the original Tamizh language not used as a noun. >Pl. refer to Prof. Bh. Krishnamurti's posting where he says >Skt. kalaha is possibly of Dravidian origin. If so, >ta. kalakam gives birth to skt. kalaha. k->h. Possibly? That doesn't prove much. And even if 'kalaham' is indeed derived from the Tamizh 'kalagam', there's no reason to believe that 'ha' is also derived. And AFAIK, pure Tamizh doesn't use 'ha'. > Now, you are saying that kaNNaki is not a Tamil?! How does it matter whether I or you say it? The sheer fact that kannagi is actually kanna(h)i, seems to imply it. And how is it that you're now using kannaki instead of kannahi, which you so obviously preferred before? For all you know, CilapathikAram might actually be based on an original JainA text in Samskrutam and hence Illangovadigal in his adaptation might have used the original name of the heroine. If you want to bolster your argument, it would be better to come up with proof that 'ha' was actually in use in ancient Tamizh. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sandeman at ENTERNET.COM.AU Fri Sep 17 02:13:17 1999 From: sandeman at ENTERNET.COM.AU (Elizabeth Sandeman-Gay) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 12:13:17 +1000 Subject: Sinhala and Tamil languages Message-ID: <161227052320.23782.13514925331615852138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Where can I find descriptions of the Sinhala and Tamil languages? I would like some knowledge of these for comparison with English, and in order to assist Sri Lankan students using English for academic purposes. Elizabeth Sandeman-Gay From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Sep 17 11:35:40 1999 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dr Anthony P Stone) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 12:35:40 +0100 Subject: Posting of computer, transliteration and font etc. questions to Indology Message-ID: <161227052333.23782.13087265120492374576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be interested in a chat room in whicb to raise problems about the transliteration of Indic scripts. On 16 Sept 1999, Harry Spier wrote: > One of the areas that I am involved in is helping produce books for > production that contain roman transliteration and/or devanagari text and I > have found the Indology list and archives invaluable in providing > information on fonts, standards, packages, cross-platform problems etc. and > by the number of entries in the archives on this area it seems that many > other members are also interested in this. > ... > > It occured to me that if enough members were interested we could set up a > chat room for this purpose. Almost an on-line timely mutual help facility > for this purpose. One idea I had about the way it might work is: If > someone had a computer, font, or transliteration question that needed a > timely answer and some mutual question/answer dialogue was probably needed > then they could send a very short posting to Indology letting them know > there was a new question in the chat room. Those members interested in this > could then correspond thru the chat room without worrying about clogging > Indology's bandwidth even if it took many back and forth messages to solve > the problem. Tony Stone Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic scripts. Thinking aloud transliteration: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 20:00:26 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 13:00:26 -0700 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052346.23782.2963015627311099864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >But it is a noun - the origin of which might be from anywhere. That's why I >asked Tamizh scholars to give evidence whether 'ha' is part of the original >Tamizh language not used as a noun. Puumpukaar is a Tamil word which is pronounced as Puumpuhaar. Puumpukaar means the beautiful town where Kaveri enters the sea; pukaar comes from the ta. verb, "puku" (to enter), which is spoken as "puhu". [...] >If you want to bolster your argument, it would be better >to come up with proof that 'ha' was actually in use >in ancient Tamizh. I have always transliterated tamil letter "ka" as "ka" following Madras Univ. Tamil lexicon. Pl. check the archives from 1994 onwards. Tamil "vallin2am" letters ka, ca, Ta, ta, pa, Ra has multiple sounds. The sounds are predictable from their position in a word. I have given those sounds for vallin2am ("hard" consonants) letters on 6 March 1998. For example, tamil letter "k" sounds like 1)an english g when occuring after nasal G; 2) an english "k" word-initially or while doubling; 3) a type of english "h" in-between two vowels. Whether tamil "k" is in a noun or a verb does not matter for pronouncing it. "k" will be spoken as k or g or h depending on the position in a word. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ Fri Sep 17 12:07:31 1999 From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 14:07:31 +0200 Subject: Tibet Journal Message-ID: <161227052337.23782.7381505145733702864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology Members, our discussion group has once again manifested its worth as a scholarly body committed to fostering knowledge and assisting each other. The article I solicited on behalf of Prof. J. Kolmas is already on its way to Praha and it only remains to me to express my and Dr. Kolmas' gratitude for your prompt help. Gratefully Yours J.F. Jan Filipsky, PhD. Oriental Institute Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8 The Czech Republic phone ++4202/6605 3729 home: U Pentlovky 466/7, 181 00 Praha 8 phone ++4202/855 74 53 From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 22:11:50 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 15:11:50 -0700 Subject: Continuing the review of the Passions of Tongue Message-ID: <161227052352.23782.4947805354407486701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganesan, S Stephen, P Chandrasekaran, >Whether >tamil "k" is in a noun or a verb does not matter >for pronouncing it. "k" will be spoken as k or g or h depending >on the position in a word. Thanks for the clarification. But is the use 'ha' or 'gha'? I'm not really familiar with the words that P Chandrasekaran, has used. So I'll use the words provided by S Stephen, which are in common usage in current Tamizh. >taaham (thirst), Aham, Mahan (son), Maeham (cloud) tA(gha)m, Ma(gha)n, Me(gha)m. Ofcourse, brAhmanic use differs - using (ha) instead of (gha). But if I remember right, usage by non-brAhmins seems more inclined to "gha" instead of "ha". And how about 'sha'? Even your names - Ganesan, Chandrasekaran do not use the 'sha' as it's used in brAhmanic circles - Gane(sha)n, Chandra(sh)ekaran. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET Fri Sep 17 20:01:21 1999 From: sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET (S Stephen) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 16:01:21 -0400 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052348.23782.5311949139445685566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran writes: >So Kanna(h)i? And is this the way CilappathikAram has it? If so, >the name of the heroine of CilappathikAram may itself not be of >Tamizh origin! >>And how is it that you're now using kannaki instead of kannahi, which you so obviously preferred before? Nanda: Kannaki is written as Kannaki, but pronounced as Kannahi, along the lines of taaham (thirst), Aham, Mahan (son), Maeham (cloud) etc. Please refer to Mr. N. Ganesan's posting of 4th March 98 (Item no. 011461) in the Indology archives for the rules behind Tamil pronounciation. Sujata From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 23:53:05 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 16:53:05 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052355.23782.16983634176536532148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >And note that (if I remember right) Thiruvalluvar himself chides brAhmanas >against being too restrictive with their women, which indirectly reflects >the Arya worldview with respect to chastity. Dear Nanda, FYI, Thiruvalluvar does not talk of brAhmana women. Best wishes, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 18 14:39:11 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 99 07:39:11 -0700 Subject: Thiruvalluvar and his Thirukkural Message-ID: <161227052359.23782.7700964032199378417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran If you want I can give you the Samskrutam name by which it is referred to >by the JainAs. And they think that Thiruvalluvar was just the publisher and >not the author. Please tell us the Samskrutam name by which Jainas refer to Thirukkural. Give the reference, it may be from ka. naa. subramanian's work on thiruvalluvar where ka.naa.cu tries to show that the author is jain. Where is the opinion the "Thiruvalluvar was just the publisher" expressed? Regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Sat Sep 18 16:03:52 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. (Selva) Selvakumar) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 99 12:03:52 -0400 Subject: Thiruvalluvar and his Thirukkural Message-ID: <161227052360.23782.14828745438853714841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > nanda chandran >If you want I can give you the Samskrutam name by which it is > referred to > >by the JainAs. And they think that Thiruvalluvar was just the > publisher and > >not the author. > > Please tell us the Samskrutam name by which Jainas refer to > Thirukkural. Give the reference, it may be from ka. naa. subramanian's > > work on thiruvalluvar where ka.naa.cu tries to show that the author > is jain. Where is the opinion the "Thiruvalluvar was just the > publisher" expressed? There is a claim that tiruvaLLuvar is the same as Elacharya, who is said to be the Jain Sri Kund Kunda Acharya, who is believed to be the Tamil. Sri Kunda Kunda is one of the most highly regarded Jain Acharya. The claim that tiruvaLLuvar is a Jain is a completely invalid one. The tiruvaLLuvar's philosophies are quite different from Jainism, Buddhism , and Vedic which does not mean they have some common themes (say somewhat like those between Islam, Judaism and Christianity). The tiruvaLLuvar's philosophies accurately reflect capture the Tamils' spirit-philosophy-culture. C.R.Selvakumar > > > Regards, > V. Iyer > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Sat Sep 18 16:10:05 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. (Selva) Selvakumar) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 99 12:10:05 -0400 Subject: Thiruvalluvar and his Thirukkural Message-ID: <161227052362.23782.10369329714717680846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> C.R. (Selva) Selvakumar wrote: > The tiruvaLLuvar's philosophies are quite different > from Jainism, Buddhism , and > Vedic which > does not mean they have some common themes (say somewhat like > those between > Islam, Judaism and Christianity). The tiruvaLLuvar's > philosophies > accurately reflect capture the Tamils' > spirit-philosophy-culture. > It should have been" ...Vedic, which does not mean there are not some common themes..." C.R.Selvakumar > > > > Regards, > > V. Iyer From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Sat Sep 18 10:47:18 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 99 12:47:18 +0200 Subject: PN Oak Message-ID: <161227052357.23782.3610161779297812631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About PN Oak: This Marathi-writing Azad Hind Fauz veteran is often paraded by Indian Marxists as the paragon of Hindu nationalist historiography. In reality, he is shunned and treated as an embarrassing nuisance by Hindu historians and as a plain laughing-stock by others. "He makes us laugh away our blues", according to SR Goel in a letter in BJP Today protesting against the publication of one of Oak's articles, ending a thirty-year boycot of Oak's theories in Sangh Parivar publications, boycot enacted after a similar letter of protest in 1961 by RC Majumdar. Oak is especially notorious for his fantastic etymologies: Vatican being Veda-Vatika, Rome as Ram-nagar, Dutch being the language of the Daityas, etc. Yet, sometimes he does have a point. While the Taj Mahal was of course not a "Tejo-Mahalya" Shiva temple as he claims, the story of the Taj's building seems more complicated than Shah Jahan wanted us to believe. I have an article somewhere by one Marvin Mills, an architecture professor in New York, arguing that the Taj could not possibly have been built from scratch in the time given by Shah Jahan's chronicle. He suggests that it had been some kind of luxurious datcha of Shah Jahan's Rajput vassal Jai Singh, built as a royal holiday resort rather than as a mausoleum, then taken over (bought, expropriated, received as a gift?) by Shah Jahan, who redesigned it for the eternal rest of his Mumtaz. That notes for payment of craftsmen have been found, and that European travellers testified to the construction works, merely proves that work was done, which is uncontroversial, not that it was an entirely new building. But a Hindu temple, the Taj never was. Oak is on safer ground where he claims the same for the Kaaba in Mecca. That too was of course not a Shiva "Makkeshwar" temple, as he claims, but it is quite certain that pre-Islamic Arab traders and Gujarati banias visited each other's temples, and recognized a commonality between the Black Stone and the Shivalingam. There is a strong Muslim tradition to this effect, including the belief that after the islamization of Arabia, the Pagan Arab gods (of whom 360 were represented in the Kaaba) had fled to India, esp. to the Somnath temple in Gujarat, which explains the otherwise wasteful and strategically hazardous raid of Mahmud Ghaznavi to that idol-house. To the Muslims, Arab polytheism and Hinduism were essentially the same religion, and the Arab and Indian polytheists seem to have had the same perception of each other. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst ke.raadsrots at unicall.be http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 18 20:06:24 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 99 13:06:24 -0700 Subject: PN Oak Message-ID: <161227052366.23782.13962388449841062805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin Bryant panDita uvAca: <> Not surprisingly, the city in Tennessee where exotic research is carried out calls itself "Oak Ridge"! The "Ridge" is a corruption of samskr*t r*Ci i.e. taste. "Taste of Oak" is "Oak Ridge"... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Sep 18 19:19:02 1999 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 99 15:19:02 -0400 Subject: PN Oak In-Reply-To: <01bf01c3$2d98c3a0$7b06703e@deze-computer> Message-ID: <161227052364.23782.15051119924117593916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 18 Sep 1999, Koenraad Elst wrote: > Oak is especially notorious for his fantastic etymologies: Vatican > being Veda-Vatika, Rome as Ram-nagar, Dutch being the language of the > Daityas, etc. My favourite 'Oakism' is his etymology for 'England' It was thus named because the primordial Aryan settlers fanning out across Europe from an Indian homeland espied the fair isle (from which vantage point he does not state) and called it 'Angulisthan' because it was finger- (anguli) shaped! EB. From SSRVJ at AOL.COM Sat Sep 18 21:15:22 1999 From: SSRVJ at AOL.COM (Somayaji Rajagopala) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 99 17:15:22 -0400 Subject: Tamil Heritage (was Aryan invasion debate) Message-ID: <161227052367.23782.10047774743885221727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: nanda chandran [mailto:vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 5:18 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Aryan invasion debate > If you can point out a *substantial* literary corpus which > shows no Arya> connections and> points to an original individual identity of the Tamizh> people, it would be> more useful> for the discussion. If Tamil has its roots in Sanskrit, then all Tamil(T) words should have some resemblance to the Sanskrit(S) words from which they are supposed to have originated, even in corrupted form. For instance dhAham(T)- -dhAha(S)----Mekam(T)---Mega(Sandesam-Kaalidaasa? play)(S)----This is Brahminical Tamil. If a Tamil word is not related to a Sanskrit word-both (T & S )having the same meaning- - to any stretch of imagination---even to the root{dhAtu(p)} of the Sanskrit word, then it should be agreed (without any murmur) that Tamil Genius has developed its own vocabulary without any support or influence of Sanskrit. Some examples are Kani(T) = Phalam(S)----Aani (T)=Jyesta(S)-(a month?s name)----Murugu(T) =Sundaram(S)----Aal(T)=Vata Vrksham(S)---- Arisi(T)=Thandulam----(Arisi has atleast some commonality with Rice)----Nel(T)=Vree(S)----Paasi payaru(T) = Mudga(S)-----Moonru(T) =Treeni(S)---Treeni has commonality with English Three----Aezhu(T) =Sapta(S)--- has commonality with Septa--- These are all very common-day to day words?If they have any commonalities- even remotely- ,please enlighten me. From literary Tamil more than 10,000 words can be cited. I have equal respect for Sanskrit also. If an ethnic group has evolved a sophisticated means of communication (language/letters/vocabulary/grammar/vast literature covering a wide spectrum )quite independent of another equally Elitist language over the same period of time?the former ethnic group should have the backing of a culture as old as that of the latter language?s cultural milieu. It should be agreed that both are independent cultural groups-developed a lot of commonalties-over a period of time due to Historical compulsions. Unity in Diversity. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Sep 18 22:16:44 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 99 23:16:44 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: (Fwd) Banning Foreign Scholars in India. In-Reply-To: <19990912014336.51319.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052369.23782.17923430018475634014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > I thought contemporary politics and government policies were to be avoided > on this list, but as it has already been raised, here goes. No, please show a little restraint in such cases. Do not break the rules of this list just because someone else does so. To Everyone: INDOLOGY postings *must* be restricted to the study of Classical and Ancient India. I ABSOLUTELY INSIST THAT DISCUSSIONS OF CURRENT OR RECENT POLITICS DO NOT APPEAR ON THIS LIST. SEVERAL MEMBERS SEEM UNABLE TO SHOW THE COMMON DECENCY OF FOLLOWING INDOLOGY GUIDELINES. I AM BEGINNING TO CANCEL SUBSCRIPTIONS WITHOUT WARNING WHEN LIST GUIDELINES ARE NOT ADHERED TO. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Sep 18 23:01:47 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 99 00:01:47 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: Banning Foreign Scholars in India. In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990914102707.009349d0@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <161227052371.23782.12640977597697298119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is not an appropriate topic for the INDOLOGY list. Please take the discussion off-list. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Sep 18 23:19:00 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 99 00:19:00 +0100 Subject: A few questions. In-Reply-To: <37E1F3C6.32A7C394@amazon.co.uk> Message-ID: <161227052373.23782.4110071981029051933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Ketan Kalyansingh wrote: > Where can I get more info about the city of Dwarka discovered under the sea? This research is published by an archaeologist called S. R. Rao who lives in Bangalore and works at the Institute for Underwater Research (or some such name) in Goa. He has made a video about his underwater work at Dwaraka, and has now published a book about the research: Lost City of Dwarka S R Rao Hardcover (May 1999) Aditya Prakashan; ISBN: 8186471480 The publisher "Aditya Prakashan" is well known for publishing very right-wing materials, and books which promote the "Aryan homeland in India" sort of book. Prof. Rao shares views similar to these. I have met him, and he was knowledgeable and to some extent charming, but his views of social, cultural, and political history were not -- what can I say? -- mainstream. Rao's underwater archaeology is really very interesting indeed, and he is a genuine pioneer in what I believe to be a fascinating and worthwhile area of research. However, the constructions he puts on his findings may not be widely accepted by the archaeological establishment. Disclaimer: I have not read his recent book. I have met the author, seen his earlier video, and read some of his articles. -- Dominik Wujastyk From mlbd at VSNL.COM Sun Sep 19 08:00:16 1999 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (MLBD) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 99 13:30:16 +0530 Subject: Books Message-ID: <161227052375.23782.15088771486492893194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Readers, Kindly note that we are publishers and distributors of books on Indology from India. We supply books on various indological subjects to all over the world. Should you require information, catalogues and the books on the subject please do not hesitate to let us know, we will be happy to meet all your requirements of Indian books. We can try to source unavailable books as well. Should you require to be on our regular mailing list than please let us have your complete postal addrss so that we may keep sending you our monthly newsletter which we post to 20,000 people all over the world free of cost every month. In addition to the newsletter we publish catalogues every six months giving you news on our new arrivals in books. We post them free of cost for your record and ordering books. Should you require our services please always use our email address for faster communication. Our complete details are given below. You can visit our website as well. With best wishes, Sincerely, Rajeev Jain -- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, UA Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel : (011) 3974826; 2911985; 2918335 (011) 5795180; 5793423; 5797356 Fax : (011) 2930689; 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com & mail at mlbd.com Website: http://www.mlbd.com *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* We make a living by what we get but we make a life by what we give *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Sep 19 21:44:00 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 99 17:44:00 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit words ending in cerebral N Message-ID: <161227052379.23782.3842217878932434076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, (Harvard-Kyoto convention used in the following) Whitney in his Grammar (section 143. first paragraph) says "the [palatal] N is allowed [as a permitted final] but is quite rare;" MacDonell in both his Sanskrit Grammar for Students and his Vedic Grammar for Students (section 27. both books) says that palatal N does not occur as a permitted final. Do any of the list members know if there are actually any Sanskrit words ending in palatal N in pausa and if so what they are? And if so why MacDonell who published after Whitney would explicitly exclude them? As an aside Prof. Deshpande in saMskRtasubodhinI page 109 in describing external sandhi gives a rule for final N ("Final G, N, and n are doubled after a short vowel, and before any vowel.") Yours, Harry ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Sep 19 21:52:22 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 99 17:52:22 -0400 Subject: Correction to post Sanskrit words ending in cerebral N Message-ID: <161227052381.23782.8201069282490505710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Apologies. In my post "Sanskrit words ending in cerebral N, where I wrote "palatal" that of course should have been "cerebral" and should have been as follows: > >(Harvard-Kyoto convention used in the following) > >Whitney in his Grammar (section 143. first paragraph) says "the [cerebral] >N >is allowed [as a permitted final] but is quite rare;" > >MacDonell in both his Sanskrit Grammar for Students and his Vedic Grammar >for Students (section 27. both books) says that cerebral N does not occur >as >a permitted final. > > >Do any of the list members know if there are actually any Sanskrit words >ending in cerebral N in pausa and if so what they are? And if so why >MacDonell who published after Whitney would explicitly exclude them? > >As an aside Prof. Deshpande in saMskRtasubodhinI page 109 in describing >external sandhi gives a rule for final N ("Final G, N, and n are doubled >after a short vowel, and before any vowel.") > >Yours, > >Harry > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Sep 19 18:39:50 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 99 19:39:50 +0100 Subject: Posting of computer, transliteration and font etc. questions to Indology In-Reply-To: <19990916172934.55087.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052377.23782.12280701340696037468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Harry Spier wrote: > 1) Perhaps Dominik could say whether he feels this is appropriate for the > Indology list. Yes, I think fonts and software are a good topic for this list (see the very first message ever posted to INDOLOGY, back in 1990.late 1990). As long as we stick to problems about Indic fonts, etc. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Sep 20 10:32:39 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 06:32:39 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit words ending in cerebral N In-Reply-To: <19990919214400.84786.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052391.23782.17431449064749465343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In our known vocabulary of Sanskrit, there are no words which end in cerebral N. However, in the formulation of the sandhi rules as given in Panini (8.3.32) and the Pratisakhyas (e.g. Zaunakiiya-Caturaadhyaayika 3.2.2), such a case is always included. The commentators are generally hardpressed to find examples, and the example cited by the commentaries is something like sugaN+iti > sugaNNiti. While the word sugaN "a good counter" derived from the root gaN is not found in literature to the best of my knowledge, the fact that such a case is included almost unanimously by the grammarians is of some significance. I have always wondered if there were colloquial Sanskrit usages that have not come down to us. Madhav Deshpande On Sun, 19 Sep 1999, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > (Harvard-Kyoto convention used in the following) > > Whitney in his Grammar (section 143. first paragraph) says "the [palatal] N > is allowed [as a permitted final] but is quite rare;" > > MacDonell in both his Sanskrit Grammar for Students and his Vedic Grammar > for Students (section 27. both books) says that palatal N does not occur as > a permitted final. > > > Do any of the list members know if there are actually any Sanskrit words > ending in palatal N in pausa and if so what they are? And if so why > MacDonell who published after Whitney would explicitly exclude them? > > As an aside Prof. Deshpande in saMskRtasubodhinI page 109 in describing > external sandhi gives a rule for final N ("Final G, N, and n are doubled > after a short vowel, and before any vowel.") > > Yours, > > Harry > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Sep 20 14:02:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 07:02:07 -0700 Subject: Rakhigarhi and Sarasvati River Message-ID: <161227052397.23782.3703576873082151085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Kalyanaraman and Indology netters, Greetings. Are there settlement names along the course of Ghaggar-Hakra (Sarasvati) something like vANIpura/bhavAnipur/etc., I read in B. C. Law, Mountains and Rivers of India, 1968 that the place where the lost Sarasvati river reemerges from sand is called "bhavAnipur". Is this correct? Also, I understand from Law's book that there is a closeby river to Sarasvati called Paavanii. Is Paavanii a tributory to Sarasvatii? Few other close by rivers are called Gaurii, Svetyaa acc. to B. C. Law. Please inform me if there are village or river names like vaanii-/vaaNi-/bhavaani-/paavanii- etc., in and around today's Ghaggar-Hakra/Vedic Sarasvati river. Many thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Mon Sep 20 15:53:28 1999 From: zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Kenneth G. Zysk) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 08:53:28 -0700 Subject: Contact information Message-ID: <161227052387.23782.11600980226001881883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should greatly appreciate it if someone could provide me with contact information for the British Library, South Asia section: name, email address, post address, and phone number. Thank you, KG Zysk -- Kenneth Zysk Department of Asian Studies University of Copenhagen Ph: +45 3532 8832 Leifsgade 33,5 Fax: +45 3532 8835 DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Email: zysk at coco.ihi.ku.dk From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Sep 20 09:15:09 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 09:15:09 +0000 Subject: Rakhigarhi and Sarasvati River Message-ID: <161227052383.23782.4866380936443974567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rakhigarhi [Cross-posted in indo_iranian mailing list]. Excerpts from: Saikot Neogi, Did the Harappan empire extend to Delhi? in:THE TRIBUNE, Sept. 18, 1999 "...Some of the recent excavations at the village of Rakhigarhi, around 150 km.from Delhi, have provided intersting findings on the Harappan civilization... excavations have been conducted by Amarendra Nath, Directorof the Institute of Archaeolgy...dating between 2800 BC and 3500 BC... Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) acquired the 224 hectares where the remains have been found...in 1995...Raymond and Bridget Allchin (estimated)the archaeological remains at Rakhigarhi covered an area of 24 hectares... Later...J.M.Kenoyer established the site in an area of 80 hectares. However, both were way off the mark and the final expanse has now been established in 224 hectares." This is a revolutionary discovery. If Rakhigarhi were the first site to have been excavated (instead of, say, Mohenjodaro), it would straightaway have been declared as the capital of the 'empire', if empire it was or simply as the SARASVATI RIVER CIVILIZATION since Rakhigarhi is on the banks of the river. The size of the settlement is remarkable when compared the size of the other 'cities': mohenjodaro (97.1 hectares); Harappa (65 hectares), Ganweriwala (81.5 hectares), Kalibangan (18.4 hectares). Let me cite from M.R. Mughal's report on his breathtaking finds of 424 sites in Cholistan: "Ganweriwala. The discovery of another large urban centre of the Indus civilization located midway between Mohenjodaro and Harappa in a region with numerous Early and Mature Harappan sites is bound to have revolutionary impact on our understanding of this highly complex civilization and its sociopolitical and economic organisation, and changes in these institutions through time. This discovery assumes great significance when a large city of the fully urbanized stage of the Indus civilization is placed amidst contemporary settlement sites, industrial centres and camp sites, thereby demonstrating various parts of an integrative system not yet discovered anywhere else in the Greater Indus Valley." (1997, Ancient Cholistan,p. 50). Rakhigarhi with the finds of industrial centres and Hakra ware is likely to pre-date Harappa (which will be confirmed only after carbon-14 dating in process is completed) and make this the focal point of continued arguments on the nucleii of the civilization among urban settlements of the extensive domain ca. 3500 BC. The Rakhigarhi site holds high promise to unravel many missing links... The links may have been with Iran (BMAC) via Kashmir... Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Sep 20 09:30:51 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 09:30:51 +0000 Subject: [] Message-ID: <161227052385.23782.15333434391084382459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Please visit my site: http://sarasvati.simplenet.com Would be happy to work with you. regards. Kalyanaraman Saraswati Rao Kavaluri wrote: > HI, > > I AM DOING RESEARCH FOR A DOCUMENTARY FILM ON THE ARYAN INVASION THEORY, > COULD HISTORIANS, INDOLOGISTS, ANTHROPOLOGISTS AND ARCHAEOLOGISTS WORKING > ON THIS SUBJECT PLEASE CONTACT ME ? > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Mon Sep 20 07:38:45 1999 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 09:38:45 +0200 Subject: Rakhigarhi and Sarasvati River Message-ID: <161227052389.23782.14507544644629966690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.Kalyanaraman wrote: > > Excerpts from: Saikot Neogi, Did the Harappan empire extend to Delhi? in:THE > TRIBUNE, Sept. 18, 1999 > > Let me cite from M.R. Mughal's report on his breathtaking finds of 424 sites > in Cholistan: "Ganweriwala. The discovery of another large urban centre of the > Indus civilization located midway between Mohenjodaro and Harappa in a region > with numerous Early and Mature Harappan sites is bound to have revolutionary > impact on our understanding of this highly complex civilization and its > sociopolitical and economic organisation, and changes in these institutions > through time. This discovery assumes great significance when a large city of > the fully urbanized stage of the Indus civilization is placed amidst > contemporary settlement sites, industrial centres and camp sites, thereby > demonstrating various parts of an integrative system not yet discovered > anywhere else in the Greater Indus Valley." (1997, Ancient Cholistan,p. 50). Can anyone tell me precisely what area is called "Cholistan" and what the etymology of this name is? Regards, Erik Seldeslachts From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU Mon Sep 20 14:43:55 1999 From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 09:43:55 -0500 Subject: Correction to post Sanskrit words ending in cerebral N In-Reply-To: <19990919215222.57662.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052399.23782.2859142030534832215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Outside grammatical terms, final retroflex N does not seem to occur freely. One example that I have noted is _bhAN iti_, which as far as I recall occurs either in the BAU or the ChU and seems to be quasi-onomatopoetic in nature. (Note similar violations of ordinary phonotactics in expressions like _jhaT iti_, without voicing of _T_ to _D_.) Hans Henrich Hock >Dear list members, > >Apologies. > >In my post "Sanskrit words ending in cerebral N, where I wrote "palatal" >that of course should have been "cerebral" and should have been as follows: > > > >> >>(Harvard-Kyoto convention used in the following) >> >>Whitney in his Grammar (section 143. first paragraph) says "the [cerebral] >>N >>is allowed [as a permitted final] but is quite rare;" >> >>MacDonell in both his Sanskrit Grammar for Students and his Vedic Grammar >>for Students (section 27. both books) says that cerebral N does not occur >>as >>a permitted final. >> >> >>Do any of the list members know if there are actually any Sanskrit words >>ending in cerebral N in pausa and if so what they are? And if so why >>MacDonell who published after Whitney would explicitly exclude them? >> >>As an aside Prof. Deshpande in saMskRtasubodhinI page 109 in describing >>external sandhi gives a rule for final N ("Final G, N, and n are doubled >>after a short vowel, and before any vowel.") >> >>Yours, >> >>Harry >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Sep 20 17:21:07 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 10:21:07 -0700 Subject: Thiruvalluvar and his Thirukkural Message-ID: <161227052401.23782.1601400323343577697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Selvakumar, University of Waterloo wrote: > There is a claim that tiruvaLLuvar is the same as Elacharya, who is >said to be the Jain Sri Kund Kunda Acharya, >who is believed to be the Tamil. Yes, there is a long tradition by Saivaites, Vaishnavaites, Jains, Buddhists, Muslims, and Christians to claim Valluvar as their own. Helaachaarya seems to a vEL; kuNDakuNDa also is a vEL/vELir. Agastya, the kalasha/kuNDa muni, is said to have led the vELir of the Krishna clan to the South. So says a sangam text (puRam). Aside: From the http://www.tamil.net archives, Newton's laws of motion in the comapact kuRaL meter. The kuRaL metrics was probably invented by Thiruvalluvar. 1) A body remains in its state of rest, or in constant motion unless acted upon by an external force. vazicelcIrk kETum, nilaippERu mARRum veLivicai illAyin2 il. 2) Force is mass times acceleration. toTukkum vicaiyin2 aLavAm poruNmai muTukkam ivaRRin2 perukku. 3) For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. uNTAm etirvin2ai evvin2ai tORumE on2RAm avaRRin2 aLavu. Best, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From SB51 at SOAS.AC.UK Mon Sep 20 11:58:12 1999 From: SB51 at SOAS.AC.UK (STEFAN BAUMS) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 11:58:12 +0000 Subject: Contact information Message-ID: <161227052393.23782.2442782817146966825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I should greatly appreciate it if someone could provide me with contact > information for the British Library, South Asia section: name, email > address, post address, and phone number. The British Library Oriental and India Office Collections 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB United Kingdom phone: +44-171-412 7873 fax: +44-171-412 7641 email: oioc-enquiries at bl.uk Hope to have helped, Stefan Baums From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Sep 20 20:00:22 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 13:00:22 -0700 Subject: Language, sacred and secular (G. Omvedt) Message-ID: <161227052403.23782.13279556058162396046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two essays by Dr. Gail Omvedt, Visiting Professor, Univerity of Pune appeared in the newspaper, The Hindu recently. a) Language, sacred and secular http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/1999/09/19/stories/1319067p.htm b) Nation and civilisation http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/1999/07/07/stories/05072523.htm Language, sacred and secular Gail Omvedt [...] A recent version of this, put forward in a book by N. S. Rajaram, a retired computer scientist in Bangalore and Natwar Jha, a traditional Vedic scholar of West Bengal, argues that Vedic Sanskrit was the language of the Indus valley civilisation. Its authors base themselves on the now-familiar Hindutva theme that the Aryans actually originated in India. In the process they claim that the ``myth of an Aryan invasion is a creation of European scholars with their own vested interest''. [...] It is this revised form of the Aryan myth that forms the basis for much of Hindutva thinking today and motivates pseudo- scholarly books like that of Rajaram and Jha. It represents an ideology which tries to reconcile the assertion of Indian ``national unity'' with the claim to priority of Sanskrit and the Aryans. Myths, though, have to confront scientific evidence, and contrary to post-modernist tendencies to treat all myths alike, there is fairly clear evidence on this issue. [...] And such passages as ``Strike down, O Maghavan, the host of the sorceresses in the ruined city of Vailasthanaka in the ruined city of Mahavailastha'' are cited by archaelogists like the Allchins to indicate the confrontation of the Aryans with the inhabitants of the land they were entering. [...] The failure of progressives throughout India to really challenge the priority asserted for Sanskrit and to confront the genuine claims for the priority of Dravidian languages has made it almost impossible to achieve an alternative understanding of Indian history and culture that could really confront Hindutva. Language, in so many ways the core of identity, the shaper of emotion and the tool of communication, remains subordinated to the distorted politics of India today. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Mon Sep 20 13:55:31 1999 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 14:55:31 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit words ending in cerebral N In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052395.23782.15096486084195320879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande wrote: >In our known vocabulary of Sanskrit, there are no words which end in >cerebral N. But we have at least the onomatopoetic syllable "bhAN", really used in a Vedic text, see Shatapathabrahmana 10.6.5.4: "sa bhAN akarot saiva vAg abhavat". G.v.Simson From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Sep 20 20:36:08 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 16:36:08 -0400 Subject: De/Increase in USA's India interest, 1970's?? Message-ID: <161227052405.23782.16010105352051253349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ganesan, Shouldn't you post this as an independent original message with Leslie Price's name in the subject space, if you want people uniterested in the ongoing discussion of USA's Indian interest to notice it? Allen Thrasher >>> "N. Ganesan" 09/17 8:02 AM >>> > The above exchange occurred on Indology today. Since my first >?serious? (?) interest in India began in 1967-70 (following >university-based anti-Vietnam non-violent action projects based on >MLKing following Gandhi following Thoreau....), my first Fulbright >there in 1971-72, I have to wonder what ?significant diminution of >interest in India? refers to, vis a vis Americans. Surely >historians cannot forget all those American Seekers (and such-like >hippies from "the West") who followed the Beatles who followed >Allen Ginsberg to India in the late 60? and 70?s, and the explosion >of interest in Gurus, Rishis, Yoga and Transcendental meditation in >the US througout the 70s. I thought this was a forum of historians, >even though Indologists!!! Dear Friends, I have a personal query. My mother's father had no son, with all daughters married away, his 7-8000 sq. ft. home was lying empty at Singanallur, Coimbatore dist. That house figures prominently in a Tamil movie called Devar Makan with Sivaji Ganesan and Kamal Hasan. Will tell later about the house which comes in the Rajnikanth movie, Ejamaan. In late 1960s, Leslie Price was living in that house. He came from Ohio. He lived at Singanallur house for years; My grandfather gave arrangements for many hunting expeditions of spotted deer, bison, and wild boar, .. in the Silent valley, Anaimalai wildlife reserves. At that time, Iravatham Mahadevan was the taluk subcollector, I do not have his address. Is Mr. Leslie Price still with Univ. of Texas history dept.? If not, how long was he there? Any chance of knowing where he lives now? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 21 12:09:22 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 05:09:22 -0700 Subject: Tamil Message-ID: <161227052415.23782.14983634805338078416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I have a student who wants to study Tamil in Madras. Can anyone >recommend >a good school? Please advise your student to contact the Institute of Asian Studies at Madras. There, s/he can get fully trained in Tamil and other Indian languages. It is in the suburbs of South Madras enroute to Mahabalipuram. Many Japanese and Americans learn Tamil and other languages there and several books by Brenda Beck, Zvelebil, J. R. Marr, ... have been published by IAS. The Jl. of the IAS running for 12+ years has articles by many reputed Dravidologists like I. Mahadevan, A. Veluppillai of Uppsala university, ... IAS is an Institute attached to the University of Madras. Recently, they are given responsibilty for the Virtual Tamil University by TN Govt. Their email: ias at xlweb.com Best, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Sep 21 13:42:32 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 06:42:32 -0700 Subject: Rakhigarhi and Sarasvati River Message-ID: <161227052419.23782.6373378540996182817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Seldeslachts wrote: > Can anyone tell me precisely what area is called "Cholistan" > and what the etymology of this name is? In Tamil, "cOlai"= grove/forest/flower garden. If Cholistaan retains remnants from the times when Sarasvati was a substantial river, then chOlistAn, from a Dravidian viewpoint would be, "area/land of groves/gardens". Note that Oasis in Tamil is "pAlainilac cOlai"(= grove in the desert land"). This makes sense since Cholistan is West of the Great Indian (Thar) desert. Compare Cholistaan and ta. cOlai to The medieval Tamil dynasty name, Chola (ChOzha). This is possibly from cOlai also, because Cholas are called "vaLavar"(people of the fertile lands) in Sangam texts. The Chola heartland is Kaviri delta. In Tamil, kaa+viri = grove(cOlai)-expanding river. Later, Sanskrit mythology was created taking kaaviri to be kaaveri, daughter of a rishi by name "kavera muni". __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Sep 21 07:25:19 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 07:25:19 +0000 Subject: Rakhigarhi and Sarasvati River Message-ID: <161227052409.23782.6427628068603532535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Seldeslachts wrote: > Can anyone tell me precisely what area is called "Cholistan" and what the etymology of this name is? In Punjabi, choa = water-fall in drops or a stream (as trickling down the side of a rock or from a leaking roof), water oozing from an orifice; water stratum; choa channan; Dravidian cognates: Ta. kul.am = tank, reservoir, lake; Ka. kol.a, kol.ahe, kon.a pond; Te. kolanu; kollu = deep pond dug or built near the outlet of a tank, in which water is collected before supplying it to fields; Go. kol = tank; Kui glu_nju small pool, puddle; Sanskrit: ku_la = pond, pool. Cholistan is the western segment of the Great Indian or Thar Desert ( marusthali_). In Bahawalpur province in Pakistan, out of a total area of 15,918 sq. miles, approimately less than half of it, i.e. 9,881 sq. miles is purely desert, called CHOLISTAN or ROHI locally. Cholistan borders Bikaner and Jaisalmer districts of Rajasthan, India The river which flows through right upto to the Rann of Kutch (and perhaps beyond thru the Nal lakes) is called the Hakra-Nara (Ghaggar in India). The latitudes of the largest Mature Harappan site, Ganweriwala: 71 degrees 9 min.N; 28degrees 35 minutes 56 seconds E. Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Sep 21 07:37:54 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 07:37:54 +0000 Subject: Rakhigarhi and Sarasvati River Message-ID: <161227052411.23782.10481543374452298874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Please inform me if there are village or river names like > vaanii-/vaaNi-/bhavaani-/paavanii- etc., in and around > today's Ghaggar-Hakra/Vedic Sarasvati river. > N. Ganesan I am citing from Nando Lal Dey, 1979, The Geographical Dictionary of Ancient and Mediaeval India, Delhi, Cosmo Publications, p. 207: Tulja_bhava_ni_ or bhava_ni_nagara. Tulja_pur, four miles from the Khandwa station of the GIP Railway in the district of Nimar (now in the district of Naldurg) in the Nizam's territory (Bom. Gaz., Vol. IX, pt. 1, p. 549). It is one of the 52 pi_t.has (Galdwin's Ayeen Akhery, p. 396). It is the Bhava_ni_nagara or Tula_bhava_ni_nagar of the S'an:karavijaya (ch. 19), and Tulja_pura of the Devi_bha_gavata P. (VII,38). It was visited by S'an:kara_ca_rya. Durga_ is said to have killed Mahis.a_sura at this place (Devi_bha_gavata, VII, 38 and Burgess' Antiquities of Bidar and Aurangabad, p. 1). The name of the goddess of Maha_sarasvati_ or Tukai. The place where the Sarasvati river was 'lost' is referred to as Vinas'ana in the Maha_bha_rata; there are claims that this may be a locality in Sirsa (Sarasvata Nagara of the historical periods) in Hissar Dist., Haryana. (cf. Aurel Stein's survey etc. etc.) Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue Sep 21 12:22:21 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 08:22:21 -0400 Subject: Correction to post Sanskrit words ending in cerebral N Message-ID: <161227052417.23782.6144551190075350873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are also the ritual calls, already in the RV: vaSaT and zrauSaT. Perhaps these examples suggest that ritual, or mantra, phonology is different from the phonology of regular discourse ['regular' in the sense of rule-governed]? George Thompson From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 21 16:18:26 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 09:18:26 -0700 Subject: Sarasvati river Message-ID: <161227052426.23782.9165438421539532742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. M. Witzel: >I am afraid that in Harappan times (during the Indus civilization) >the Sarasvati was called something like >*Vipaazh or *VibaaL. Dear Prof. Witzel, Greetings. This is my last posting this month because I probably have exhausted my monthly quota allotted by Dr. Wujastyk. I am thinking of Drav. "vaani" as the old name for the river, Sarasvati. ta. vAn2i => vaaNii, and then from vaaNii to Sarasvati is easy. In sangam times, many rivers are called "vaanii". vaan = sky; The "vaanii" river in CT, a tributory of Kaveri, is sanskritized as "bhavaanii". There is a dam, bhavaaniisaagar now. Compare this to the village name, "bhavaaniipura" where Sarasvati river reemerges from sand. May be "bha(va)vaanii", where "vaanii" is born again. B. C. Law, Mountains and Rivers of India, 1968, p. 195 "[SarasvatI] flows down past Patiala to lose itself in the northern part of the desert of Rajputana at some distance from Sirsaa. Manu applies the name of Vinasana to the place where it dispappears from view. In the SiddhAnta-ziromani (Golaadhyaaya, BhuvanakoSa), the Sarasvatii is correctly described as a river, which is visible in one place and invisible in another. It disappears for a time in the sand near the village of Chalaur and reappears at **Bhavaaniipur**. At Baalchchaapar it again disappears, but appears again at Bara Khera; at Urnai near Pehoa, ..." Your reconstruction, *vi(sham)bAL has resemblences to my attempt: vANI. Tamil has for vENavaa/vELavaa (desire). Like the vELavaa/vENavaa pair, bAL-/vANi may be related. B. C. Law, p. 195 again: "[Sindhu] receives on its left side at a place called *PanJcnAD* the joint flow of the five other main rivers of the Punjab under the name of the ChenAb". In 1929, P. T. Srinivasa Aiyangar said (exact quote, I will give later) the paJca jana/paJca jAta occuring in RV may refer to Tamils because their life in Sangam texts is divided into 5 landscapes. So, is this *paJca nAD* contain the tamil/dr. term "nADu" (land/country) as in Tamil NaaDu or kannADa. On sep. 19, 1999 article in the paper The Hindu, G. Omvedt talks of a Mahabharata shlOkam where Dramilas/DramiDas are called Mlecchas. Does this signify the Meluhha mentioned further West? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 21 16:58:13 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 09:58:13 -0700 Subject: Thiruvalluvar and Thirukkural Message-ID: <161227052429.23782.14201412404453077818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V Iyer writes : >Please tell us the Samskrutam name by which Jainas refer to >Thirukkural. Give the reference, it may be from ka. naa. subramanian's >work on thiruvalluvar where ka.naa.cu tries to show that the author >is jain. Where is the opinion the "Thiruvalluvar was just the >publisher" expressed? Actually this was told to me by a JainA monk who I met in Madras, who was also extremely helpful in helping me understand JainA philosophy and world view. Actually pleased that somebody still had interest in all this, I guess. But before you slam me for quoting an unconfirmed source let me also assure you that this was not the first time I heard this about the kural. If I remember right RAdhAkrishnan also mentions this in his exposition of JainA darshana in his Indian Philosophy. At the end of the exposition of each school he also mentions the books he'd used as reference - and one of them is what I guess is the source of RAdhAkrishnan's quote. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Sep 21 17:43:33 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 10:43:33 -0700 Subject: Sarasvati river Message-ID: <161227052436.23782.11321150687753845418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am afraid that in Harappan times (during the Indus civilization) >the Sarasvati was called something like >*Vipaazh or *VibaaL. Tamil lexicon and CT texts use vicumpu=vAn2=sky. vicumpAL is "lady from the sky". Goes with naming rivers after women. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Sep 21 09:48:10 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 10:48:10 +0100 Subject: Rakhigarhi / Cholistan In-Reply-To: <19990921015520.25696.qmail@www0y.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227052423.23782.7189616277353442129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 7:25 +0000 9/21/99, S.Kalyanaraman wrote Cholistan: >In Punjabi, choa = water-fall in drops or a stream (as trickling down the side >of a rock or from a leaking roof), water oozing from an orifice; water >stratum; choa channan; Sorry, choa ( = coA ) is from Skt. cyota 'oozing, sprinkling' (from cyut) and is not connected with choli (coli/ colii). There is no way to explain the -l- that way. (Turner, CDIAL 4947) At best, you have coli-stAn 'country of bodices' -- which is, of course, not exactly a likely etymology. We have to look for another etymon. >Dravidian cognates: Ta. kul.am = tank, reservoir, lake; >Ka. kol.a, kol.ahe, kon.a pond; Te. kolanu; kollu = deep pond .... ; Sanskrit: ku_la =>pond, pool. Skt. kUla Rgveda 8.47.11 ' gradient, river bank', has no good etymology (according to Mayrhofer, EWA at least); However, Skt. kulyA (kuliya) RV 3.45.3, 5.83.8 , 10.43.7 'rivulet, channel' belongs to a different root (kul :: kUl) and also has no clear etymology; some IE cognates have been proposed (in Lithuanian). Turner CDIAL 3352 has Drav origin. The Tamil and Rgvedic words look similar enough to suppose early loans/adaptations. But they do not help at all in the case of Choli-stan. ---- Choli- has no connection at all with Drav. kuLam etc. (Burrow-Emeneau DEDR 1828), which seems to belong to a root meaning 'water, washing, cool' . Tamil etc. k- des not change into c- in Indo-Aryan and certainly NEVER before -u- ; (nor the other way round, Vedic c- to Drav. k-; the best you get is Proto-Drav. k > c in Tamil.) What we badly need is an etymological dictionary of Panjabi and Sindhi (NIA people listen up!) -- NONE is in sight--- which are based on proper rules of sound changes from Vedic/Old Indo-Aryan through Middle IA to modern IA (Panjabi/Sindhi). -- see EJVS, forthc. this month. MW. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Sep 21 09:52:47 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 10:52:47 +0100 Subject: Rakhigarhi In-Reply-To: <19990920033951.18008.rocketmail@web123.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227052421.23782.12595169797392813285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:39 -0700 9/19/99, S. Kalyanaraman wrote: > THE TRIBUNE, Sept. 18, 1999 ... > recent excavations at the village of Rakhigarhi,... >Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) acquired the 224 hectares I am curious to know how the ASI "acquired" the site in 1995; it must have been very expensive since it is almost completely covered by the modern village. (which I have mentioned for other Indus cities earlier, tehy often are coverd by modern settlements -- and which some members did not believe; what about Harappa itself?) Journalistic licence about acquiring "the site" ? Remember the BBC etc. "quotes" of R. Meadow on early Harappan writing? >This is a revolutionary discovery. If Rakhigarhi were >the first site to have been excavated .. it would straightaway have been >declared ... as the SARASVATI RIVER CIVILIZATION >since Rakhigarhi is on the banks of the river. I am afraid that in Harappan times (during the Indus civilization) the Sarasvati was called something like *Vipaazh or *VibaaL. If we *really* want to rename the Harappan (Indus civilization), we should not call it, anachronistically, the Indus-Sarasvatii, .... but the Sende-VibaaL Civilization. >Rakhigarhi ... the focal point of continued >arguments on the nucleii of the civilization among >urban settlements of the extensive domain ca. 3500 BC. >The Rakhigarhi site holds high promise to unravel many >missing links... let's wait and see the *published* Excavation Report, not newpaper stories (see above) ! >The links may have been with Iran (BMAC) via >Kashmir... Via KASHMIR? who wants to climb the Pir Pantsaal pass each time when moving from Bactria to the Indus, ... when there are the easier and more more directly situated Khyber (and Bolan, etc.) passes? Just curious.... ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Sep 21 21:12:46 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 11:12:46 -1000 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052444.23782.14811207318510462870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Narayan S. Raja wrote: > On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > > raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU asked: > > > > > Could he just have been stating a simple fact, > > > i.e., that ceGkuTTuvan2 was mATalan2's king, > > > rather than "articulating a case of linguistic > > > nationalism"? > > > > No, because mATalan2's king is a Chola while ceGkuTTuvan2 is a Chera king. > > Thanks for the clarification. > I will try to find "silappadhikaram" > in our University library and > understand who said exactly what > to whom, and in what context. I was able to get a copy of the original "silappadhikAram" (LIFCO, 1964), as well as a translation by R. Parthasarathi (Columbia Univ Press, 1993). It was a great pleasure to read it (for the first time after the abridged version we got in school). You are absolutely correct. SilappadhikAram, esp. book 3, shows a clear Tamil self-awareness, or Tamil national awareness (in a good sense). But coming to MAtalan... just for curiosity, where exactly does MAtalan refer to Senguttuvan as "his king"? I couldn't yet find those lines. Also, although this doesn't weaken your main point (the existence of Tamil national awareness in SilappadhikAram), it seems to me that MAtalan was not the best illustration for this. After all, he is the person urging Senguttuvan to perform the Rajasuya sacrifice, which presumably means that he recognizes Senguttuvan as a paramount king -- Tamil national awareness not coming into the picture. Best regards, Raja. From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Tue Sep 21 18:49:41 1999 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 11:49:41 -0700 Subject: Website at the Institute for Oriental Studies, Thane Message-ID: <161227052442.23782.17685532656783887637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am reproducing below a recent potentially useful message received from Dr. Vijay Bedekar, who is not a member of this list: 19 Sep 1999. The Institute for oriental study, Thane has launched a Website with the address http://www.orientalthane.com This is probably the first Website on Oriental/Indology launched from India. We have made attempts to make the site highly informative and user friendly. The institute has been working in the field for the last 15 years. We have conducted about 23 seminars on different facets of Indian culture. At least the abstracts of last ten seminars would be available on the site very soon. It would be a mine of information. The SPEECHES SECTION would feature writings of various scholars in the field. NEWS AND VIEWS SECTION would keep you informed on various academic research findings by different universities and organizations besides matters of general interest related to Oriental/Indology studies all over the world. SEMINAR DIARY will include a calendar of forthcoming meets and workshops being held worldwide. From rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU Tue Sep 21 17:08:33 1999 From: rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU (K.Ramanitharan) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 12:08:33 -0500 Subject: A Request: Information on Devadasi & Keisha Message-ID: <161227052431.23782.682744292065220521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology members, Could anyone provide me some information (reference as hard copy books, or web sources) \ on the previously done comparative studies on 'Devadasi system of India & Keisha System of Japan.' Even, the references that could provide information on any one of the systems is helpful. Thank you very much. Regards, Ramanitharan, K. From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Tue Sep 21 11:42:20 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 13:42:20 +0200 Subject: Two Buddhist Terms Message-ID: <161227052439.23782.5374579106808652263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Richard, aniketa, n. of a bodhisattva: gv 442.3 aniketacArin, m., n. of a samAdhi: mvy 577; zsp 1421.12 anupAdadhI does not occur. Closest hit: anupAdA, abbreviated form of ger. anupAdAya, q.v., *not clinging* (to existence) [...] in mv i.69.15 read anupAda (m.c. for -dA) vimukti Yours, Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa assistant professor of metaphysics E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Tue Sep 21 01:48:32 1999 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Mahoney, Richard B) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 13:48:32 +1200 Subject: Two Buddhist Terms Message-ID: <161227052407.23782.3458080907903634247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Readers I have been looking at one of E. Conze's essays on the PrajJApAramitaratnaguNasaMcayagAthA (Rgs) and have found a couple of terms I am unable to track down in M-W. I assume they are in Edgerton's BHS but as I do not have a copy on hand I thought I would ask you for help. The two terms I need defined are: aniketacArI (Rgs: I.6 & 10; II.3) anupAdadhI (Rgs: I.9, 10, 24 etc.) Any help you could give would be much appreciated. Many thanks in advance. -- Regards Richard Mahoney From William.Smith at ORIENT.SU.SE Tue Sep 21 11:49:41 1999 From: William.Smith at ORIENT.SU.SE (William Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 13:49:41 +0200 Subject: Tamil Message-ID: <161227052413.23782.9535354239846511811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members: I have a student who wants to study Tamil in Madras. Can anyone recommend a good school? Thanks, William L. Smith From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Sep 21 17:09:50 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 18:09:50 +0100 Subject: Sarasvati river In-Reply-To: <19990921161826.45164.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052433.23782.10408441452481225062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Greetings. This is my last posting this month because I probably > have exhausted my monthly quota allotted by Dr. Wujastyk. Thank you for paying attention to this issue; actually, this is your seventeenth message this month, so you have slightly exceeded the quota. K. Elst has the same number, but Bharat Gupt is the most frequent poster this month so far, and has greatly exceeded the recommended limit. We can expect to say goodbye to him for a while. But again, thank you for being self-limiting. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From pradip2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Sep 22 04:07:06 1999 From: pradip2000 at YAHOO.COM (Gabriel) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 01:07:06 -0300 Subject: Two Buddhist Terms Message-ID: <161227052451.23782.2719989869813119812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Richard, This is Gabriel from The Sanskrit Web Site (www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3502/index.html). "aniketacArI" means "one who wanders about (cArI) houseless (aniketa)". In turn, "anupAdadhI" is difficult to translate because I do not know the entire context. Maybe it can be translated as follows: "a woman who reflects (dhI) on each (anu) verse or line --as the fourth part of a regular stanza-- (pAda)". But I am not completely sure if I do not know the context. Pali have many Sanskrit-like words. I have translated the words as if they were Sanskrit words. Next time, try to include the context surroundig the word to be translated. Sorry about my English. Spanish is my native language. Good luck! Gabriel "Mahoney, Richard B" wrote: > Dear Readers > > I have been looking at one of E. Conze's essays on the > PrajJApAramitaratnaguNasaMcayagAthA (Rgs) and have found a couple of terms > I am unable to track down in M-W. I assume they are in Edgerton's BHS but > as I do not have a copy on hand I thought I would ask you for help. The > two terms I need defined are: > > aniketacArI (Rgs: I.6 & 10; II.3) > > anupAdadhI (Rgs: I.9, 10, 24 etc.) > > Any help you could give would be much appreciated. > > Many thanks in advance. > > -- Regards Richard Mahoney From pradip2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Sep 22 04:07:13 1999 From: pradip2000 at YAHOO.COM (Gabriel) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 01:07:13 -0300 Subject: Sanskrit words ending in cerebral N Message-ID: <161227052453.23782.16725824762436762961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Harry, This is Gabriel from The Sanskrit Web Site (www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3502/index.html). I do not know any words ending in palatal "n" within a formal sentence at least. Perhaps there may be some words (probably roots), but quite rare indeed. The rule given by Deshpande is correct. For example: "san atra" (being here) is transformed into "sann atra" and then the two words are to be joined together as follows: "sannatra". Well, sorry about my English. Spanish is my native language. Stay in touch. Gabriel Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > (Harvard-Kyoto convention used in the following) > > Whitney in his Grammar (section 143. first paragraph) says "the [palatal] N > is allowed [as a permitted final] but is quite rare;" > > MacDonell in both his Sanskrit Grammar for Students and his Vedic Grammar > for Students (section 27. both books) says that palatal N does not occur as > a permitted final. > > Do any of the list members know if there are actually any Sanskrit words > ending in palatal N in pausa and if so what they are? And if so why > MacDonell who published after Whitney would explicitly exclude them? > > As an aside Prof. Deshpande in saMskRtasubodhinI page 109 in describing > external sandhi gives a rule for final N ("Final G, N, and n are doubled > after a short vowel, and before any vowel.") > > Yours, > > Harry > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Sep 22 07:28:15 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 07:28:15 +0000 Subject: Sarasvati river Message-ID: <161227052446.23782.8370761471601084943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, There should be someway to crosslink with other spacious mailing lists to open up more space for urgent or lengthy postings for e.g. sarasvati.listbot.com, indo_iranians at egroups.com (say with a one-liner: for more, see URL...)I am eagerly looking forward to Prof. Witzel's EJVS notes on Punjabi-Sindhi... Kalyanaraman Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > > > Greetings. This is my last posting this month because I probably > > have exhausted my monthly quota allotted by Dr. Wujastyk. > > Thank you for paying attention to this issue; actually, this is your > seventeenth message this month, so you have slightly exceeded the quota. > K. Elst has the same number, but Bharat Gupt is the most frequent poster > this month so far, and has greatly exceeded the recommended limit. We can > expect to say goodbye to him for a while. > > But again, thank you for being self-limiting. > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Sep 22 07:29:47 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 07:29:47 +0000 Subject: Sarasvati river Message-ID: <161227052449.23782.3827301108800870686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, There should be someway to crosslink with other spacious mailing lists to open up more space for urgent or lengthy postings for e.g. sarasvati.listbot.com, indo_iranians at egroups.com (say with a one-liner: for more, see URL...)I am eagerly looking forward to Prof. Witzel's EJVS notes on Punjabi-Sindhi... Isn't Vipa_s Beas before it joined with S'tudri_ (Sotra)? Kalyanaraman Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > > > Greetings. This is my last posting this month because I probably > > have exhausted my monthly quota allotted by Dr. Wujastyk. > > Thank you for paying attention to this issue; actually, this is your > seventeenth message this month, so you have slightly exceeded the quota. > K. Elst has the same number, but Bharat Gupt is the most frequent poster > this month so far, and has greatly exceeded the recommended limit. We can > expect to say goodbye to him for a while. > > But again, thank you for being self-limiting. > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Wed Sep 22 07:28:48 1999 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 08:28:48 +0100 Subject: Two Buddhist Terms Message-ID: <161227052458.23782.4722236955970975847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Richard Mahoney asks: >I have been looking at one of E. Conze's essays on the >PrajJApAramitaratnaguNasaMcayagAthA (Rgs) and have found a couple of terms >I am unable to track down in M-W. I assume they are in Edgerton's BHS but >as I do not have a copy on hand I thought I would ask you for help. The >two terms I need defined are: > >aniketacArI (Rgs: I.6 & 10; II.3) > >anupAdadhI (Rgs: I.9, 10, 24 etc.) > >Any help you could give would be much appreciated. aniketacAri according to CPD this has the same meaning as 'aniketavaasi(n)' i.e. 'dwelling houseless'; it cites Pj II 573,26 and Nidd-a II 193,19. They both explain it as equivalent to apalibodhacAri(n) and nittaNhacAri(n). (Is that correctly transcribed in this system ?) anupAdadhI I do not have Rgs to hand and am not sure I can comment usefully on that out of context - unless it is for anupAdat hi or for anupAdaddhi. Anyway, presumably the negative prefix a(n) before some form of upa+A+dA ? According to Edgerton this does occur before finite verbs even in Sanskrit and it is, as he indicates, not very unusual in Pali. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Sep 22 05:57:58 1999 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 08:57:58 +0300 Subject: Query about book Message-ID: <161227052455.23782.12888102050623398528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, A colleague has asked me to post the following query. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt ***************************** Dear colleagues, I am looking for a bibliographic reference. The only data I have got are the following ones: Possible title of book: "Substitution of Similars" Author: Jevons. I have not been able to come up with more details about this book. The reference I have got is from the Loeb edition of Plato's Republic. Jevons' book may, however, have relevance to Indological studies as well. *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM Wed Sep 22 16:49:10 1999 From: cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 10:49:10 -0600 Subject: IhAmRga-drama and the question of identification and aesthetic experience Message-ID: <161227052468.23782.15743408199139205344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> one of the purposes of rasa (aesthetic) theory is, i believed, intended to create an identification with the divine. Aesthetic experience is conceived of as participating in and identifying with the emotions of God. One's own emotions are elevated to that of the divine. Indeed the general division between the divine and humanity might be considered Western rather than Indian per se. Thus, it is possible to identify with the hero/god not unlike the devotee identifies with the image of god in puja. I might suggest looking to Abhinavagupta's philosophy of aesthetics or Rupa Gosvamin's theory of bhakti-rasa "Santarasa and Abhinaagupta's Philosophy of Aesthetics" by J. L. Masson and M.V. Patwardhan. Pune: Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute. 1969 (1985). Benjamin Fleming -----Original Message----- From: Jon Skarpeid To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 5:06 AM Subject: IhAmRga-drama and the question of identification and aesthetic experience >One of the main purpose of the Sanskrit Drama is to produce aesthetic >experience. A presuppostion is that the spectator is able to identify >him/herself with the hero/artist. However, in some of the drama types like >IhAmRga, the hero is a divine being. How is the identification supposed to >take place when the hero is a God, for example Rama(saving Sita)? Is the >answer simply that Rama is possessing/pretending to possess human feelings >and thus give rise to the identification and subsequently the aesthetic >experience among the audience? > >Does anybody posit knowledge to share with me and the group? > >Jon Skarpeid > From Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO Wed Sep 22 11:05:19 1999 From: Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 13:05:19 +0200 Subject: IhAmRga-drama and the question of identification and aesthetic experience Message-ID: <161227052460.23782.12275519635135422203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One of the main purpose of the Sanskrit Drama is to produce aesthetic experience. A presuppostion is that the spectator is able to identify him/herself with the hero/artist. However, in some of the drama types like IhAmRga, the hero is a divine being. How is the identification supposed to take place when the hero is a God, for example Rama(saving Sita)? Is the answer simply that Rama is possessing/pretending to possess human feelings and thus give rise to the identification and subsequently the aesthetic experience among the audience? Does anybody posit knowledge to share with me and the group? Jon Skarpeid From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Sep 22 17:17:51 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 13:17:51 -0400 Subject: Sandhis of word-final N Message-ID: <161227052470.23782.946573385534559315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Georg von Simson and Hans Hock for referring to the onomatopoetic usages like bhaN iti found in late Vedic material. For Panini, such words are called imitations of inarticulate sounds (avyaktaanukara.na), and are considered to be grammatical Padas which can be subjected to regular sandhi rules. In known usages, their sandhi treatment is seen to be irregular, so jha.titi, and not jha.diti, but consider usages like: pha.t pha.t phaa.d iti where the expression pha.t is subjected to voicing before a vowel. On the expression dvir va.sa.t karoti in (Aitareya Br), Saaya.na says: vau.sa.d vau.sa.d iti. Here the voicing of the final .t to .d occurs, indicating that these onomatopoetic expressions are subject to the same sandhi rules as regular Padas. I suspect something like this was assumed by Panini for expressions like bha.n iti. Many more such onomatopoetic expressions ending in .n are found in modern Marathi: .ta.n .ta.n, .tu.n .tu.n, bhu.n bhu.n, ku.n ku.n, ru.n jhu.n, gha.n gha.n, ta.n ta.n, da.n da.n, .tha.n .tha.n, pha.n pha.n, va.n va.n, etc. I suspect something like these did occur in Panini's Sanskrit. What seems interesting is that the rule of doubling of final .n after a short vowel and before another vowel does not extend to palatal ~n and m. Why does it apply only to the other three nasal consonants? Any suggestions? Madhav Deshpande From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU Wed Sep 22 19:46:40 1999 From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 14:46:40 -0500 Subject: Sandhis of word-final N Message-ID: <161227052475.23782.13702245531685420047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Madhav Deshpande for further and helpful discussion. For _m_, it is interesting to note that it exhibits a much higher degree of assimilations to following oral stops (not just to "acute" i.e. dental, retroflex, palatal ones) and that it goes to anusvara and the like before fricatives in external sandhi; compared to the other old nasal, _n_, thus is much "weaker". The fact that final _m_ also is extremely weak in Latin may suggest that it came out of PIE as a weak consonant. This weakness may be responsible for the fact that final doubling has not been extended to it. As for the palatal nasal _?_, we are of course dealing with an element that does not occur in final position in "well-formed" Sanskrit (but maybe it does in grammatical terms?), not even in onomatopoeia and other affective vocabulary, it seems. So perhaps there was nothing there to begin with to which final doubling could have applied. Best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock >Thanks to Georg von Simson and Hans Hock for referring to the >onomatopoetic usages like bhaN iti found in late Vedic material. For >Panini, such words are called imitations of inarticulate sounds >(avyaktaanukara.na), and are considered to be grammatical Padas which can >be subjected to regular sandhi rules. In known usages, their sandhi >treatment is seen to be irregular, so jha.titi, and not jha.diti, but >consider usages like: pha.t pha.t phaa.d iti where the expression pha.t is >subjected to voicing before a vowel. On the expression dvir va.sa.t >karoti in (Aitareya Br), Saaya.na says: vau.sa.d vau.sa.d iti. Here the >voicing of the final .t to .d occurs, indicating that these onomatopoetic >expressions are subject to the same sandhi rules as regular Padas. I >suspect something like this was assumed by Panini for expressions like >bha.n iti. Many more such onomatopoetic expressions ending in .n are >found in modern Marathi: .ta.n .ta.n, .tu.n .tu.n, bhu.n bhu.n, ku.n >ku.n, ru.n jhu.n, gha.n gha.n, ta.n ta.n, da.n da.n, .tha.n .tha.n, pha.n >pha.n, va.n va.n, etc. I suspect something like these did occur in >Panini's Sanskrit. > What seems interesting is that the rule of doubling of final .n >after a short vowel and before another vowel does not extend to palatal ~n >and m. Why does it apply only to the other three nasal consonants? Any >suggestions? > Madhav Deshpande From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Sep 22 19:33:24 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 15:33:24 -0400 Subject: last Mogul emperor as physician? Message-ID: <161227052473.23782.15890508839636189619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Library of Congress has recently acquired a small manuscript sheet in Persian that seems upon first examination to be a medical prescription written by Muhammad Bahadur Shah Zafar, the last Mogul emperor. Does anyone know whether Bahadur Shah was given to the study of medicine in addition to his talents as a poet, or if he was in the habit of doctoring his courtiers? Thanks for any help. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From Boris.Oguibenine at EHESS.FR Wed Sep 22 14:15:18 1999 From: Boris.Oguibenine at EHESS.FR (Boris Oguibenine) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 16:15:18 +0200 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227052464.23782.15974676850255716602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Identit? Message:<4.0.1.19990922145027.00f1dc30 at atacama.ehess.fr> X-Sender: boris at atacama.ehess.fr(Non v?rifi?) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:15:21 +0200 To: Indology From: Boris Oguibenine Subject: Re: Two Buddhist Terms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 13:42 21/09/99 +0200, you wrote: >Dear Richard, > >aniketa, n. of a bodhisattva: gv 442.3 >aniketacArin, m., n. of a samAdhi: mvy 577; zsp 1421.12 > >anupAdadhI does not occur. Closest hit: >anupAdA, abbreviated form of ger. anupAdAya, q.v., *not clinging* (to >existence) [...] in mv i.69.15 read anupAda (m.c. for -dA) vimukti > >Yours, Ferenc >-------------------------------------------------------- >Ferenc Ruzsa >assistant professor of metaphysics >E=F6tv=F6s Lor=E1nd University, Budapest >e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu >=20 The solution to mv i.69.15 " read anupAda (m.c. for -dA) vimukti" is offered by Edgerton who emends the text, but gives no translation.=20 Mv.1.69.15 runs as follows: na khu bhavadbhir anupAdivimukti According to Senart, Mahaavastu I, p. 430 who sees anupAdi as adjective determining nirvRtI (line 16) , it is to be understood as "no, there is no liberation free from the upAdi possibly =3DupAdAna (so BHSD) i.e. from any clinging to existence" (i.e. final liberation with no rest of life to live); Jones apparently does not accept Edgerton's suggestion to see anupAdi as mere corruption of anupAdA(ya): "no, my friends, you cannot...[be] immune from any source of rebirth". Leumann and Siraisi translate: "Durchaus nicht soll (oder kann) das von (jeder weltlichen) Grundlage befreite NirvAANa ....erreicht werden", anyway closer to Senart' text treated more respectfully with no immediate wish to =ABbettering=BB. As to anupAdadhI (Rgs: I.9) in the first posting, notice that Yuyama's edition reads an-upAdu-dhIH against Conze's anupAdadhI (sic!) "(his) thought on non production" (Tibetan skye med blo ldan, while Yuyama's Tunhuang rec. A has skye med blo-yis) From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Sep 22 20:42:38 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 16:42:38 -0400 Subject: Sandhis of word-final N In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052479.23782.12298185384471435747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another feature I have noticed in the execution of this particular sandhi in its Paninian/commentarial usage is that the doubling of the final dental n is followed more consistently, e.g. san+anta > sannanta. However, the final .n and G (velar nasal) are not seen doubled, e.g. iko ya.n aci and not iko ya.n.n aci in the reading of the Astadhyayi, and tiG+anta > tiGanta and not tiGGant, except in the reading of P.8.1.28 (tiGG atiGaH). But again the expressions like tiGanta and yaGanta are more commonplace. Within this irregularity, the doubling of the final n is more or less regular. Perhaps this has to do with the frequencies with which these consonants occur in the word-final position in normal Sanskrit. Sorry about the mixed notation above. Madhav Deshpande From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Wed Sep 22 20:45:53 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. (Selva) Selvakumar) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 16:45:53 -0400 Subject: Rakhigarhi / Cholistan Message-ID: <161227052477.23782.15979824876810045751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel wrote: [..] > Sorry, choa ( = coA ) is from Skt. cyota 'oozing, sprinkling' (from > cyut) > and is not connected with choli (coli/ colii). > There is no way to explain the -l- that way. (Turner, CDIAL 4947) Does the skt cyut have any cognates in IE or Indo-Iranian ? I looked at CDIAL 4947, and it appears like a Dravidian word to me. The Tamil words coTTu (= water or any liquid drop, verb to drip, dripping), cori (= drip, trickling down), coLLU = (drip, trickling down) (joLLu referred to by S. K. Chatterjee in his work on the origin and development of Bengali language) etc. seem to be connected with skt. cyut. Another Tamil word to be considered along with the entry(4948) in CDIAL is cunai (= mountain spring). > Skt. kUla Rgveda 8.47.11 ' gradient, river bank', has no good > etymology > (according to Mayrhofer, EWA at least); > > However, Skt. kulyA (kuliya) RV 3.45.3, 5.83.8 , 10.43.7 'rivulet, > channel' belongs to a different root (kul :: kUl) and also has no > clear > etymology; some IE cognates have been proposed (in Lithuanian). > Turner CDIAL 3352 has Drav origin. Quite possibly 3352 is of Dravidian origin. > The Tamil and Rgvedic words look similar enough to suppose early > loans/adaptations. But they do not help at all in the case of > Choli-stan. > MW. C.R.Selvakumar > > > = > ======================================================================== > > Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies > > Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 > home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From n.rao at RZ.UNI-SB.DE Wed Sep 22 14:49:23 1999 From: n.rao at RZ.UNI-SB.DE (Narahari Rao) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 16:49:23 +0200 Subject: IhAmRga-drama and the question of identification and aesthetic experience Message-ID: <161227052466.23782.14313237435302146645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 13:05 22.09.1999 +0200, you wrote: >One of the main purpose of the Sanskrit Drama is to produce aesthetic >experience. A presuppostion is that the spectator is able to identify >him/herself with the hero/artist. However, in some of the drama types like >IhAmRga, the hero is a divine being. How is the identification supposed to >take place when the hero is a God, for example Rama(saving Sita)? Perhaps the answer is to replace 'God' with 'god'. In the purAnic conception gods share the same faculties as human beings with perhaps sometimes those faculties being more powerful. Perhaps the word 'Deva' therefore should not be translated as 'God'. Gods including Vishnu are depicted as being capable of anger and desire. In this at least the purAnic conception bears similarity to the Greek rather than the Semitic conception. Narahari From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Sep 22 17:07:06 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 17:07:06 +0000 Subject: Rakhigarhi / Cholistan Message-ID: <161227052462.23782.16605536564207400658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel wrote: > Sorry, choa ( = coA ) is from Skt. cyota 'oozing, sprinkling' (from cyut)> and is not connected with choli (coli/ colii). > There is no way to explain the -l- that way. (Turner, CDIAL 4947) The detailed rejoinder with reference to Santali and Gujarati lexemes (chol., jhol)and also in reference to Mr. Ganesan's notes on Bhava_ni is posted at the URL (Message #77: Chol. and Bhiwani): http://sarasvati.listbot.com/cgi-bin/subscriber?Act=view_archive&list_id=sarasvati Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Wed Sep 22 21:01:55 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 22:01:55 +0100 Subject: Two Buddhist terms Message-ID: <161227052481.23782.10139658329563471354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To me, 'anupAdadhi' appears to be intended for / equivalent to 'anupAdhi' (lacking limits, free from bonds), to judge from the accompanying word. I do not know whether the quoted word as it is is common in PAli/Buddhist Sanskrit or has come through a scribal error. In Sanskrit, 'anupAdhi' is common. It has, however, to be distinguished from 'anupadhi' (free from deceit, genuine): rahasyaM sAdhUnAm anupadhi vizuddhaM vijayate [BhavabhUti]. KSA/ 22-9-99 From se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 23 09:37:00 1999 From: se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (. .) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 99 02:37:00 -0700 Subject: What is indology? Message-ID: <161227052489.23782.14396834302221662036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, What is indology? Kailash Srivastava ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Thu Sep 23 07:37:05 1999 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 99 09:37:05 +0200 Subject: Rakhigarhi Message-ID: <161227052483.23782.8670890532491452370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel wrote: > > I am afraid that in Harappan times (during the Indus civilization) > the Sarasvati was called something like > *Vipaazh or *VibaaL. > If we *really* want to rename the Harappan (Indus civilization), we should > not call it, anachronistically, the Indus-Sarasvatii, .... > but the Sende-VibaaL Civilization. Dear Professor Witzel, This is interesting, though very cryptic. Can you please be somewhat more specific. To what language do these reconstructed forms belong? Is there a connection between *Vipaazh and VipAZ / VipAZA, or present Beas? Yours sincerely, Erik Seldeslachts From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Sep 23 09:00:31 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 99 10:00:31 +0100 Subject: Website at the Institute for Oriental Studies, Thane In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052485.23782.13652679777254168365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > with the address > http://www.orientalthane.com This is This web server does not have a DNS entry as of this morning (Thursday 23rd). The address must have been working at some time, however, since it is listed by Altavista (search for orientalthane). Perhaps the technical difficulty will be ironed out soon? -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 23 17:46:47 1999 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 99 10:46:47 -0700 Subject: My Meeting with P.N.Oak Message-ID: <161227052499.23782.10834836055726047812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While his fancy etymologies are truly a rich source of comic relief from academic drudgery, I came away after a meeting with Purushottam Nagesh (P.N.)Oak at his resodence in Pune in July 1998 with a nagging suspicion that something is indeed amiss with India's recorded history. Born in 1917 at Indore, Oak was trained as a lawyer and worked as a broadcaster on the radio station operated by the Azad Hind Sena in Saigon during WWII. In the 1960s he worked as information officer with the United States embassy in New Delhi. In 1964 Oak founded the Institute for Rewriting Indian History in order to rectify what he believes to be the biased and distorted versions of India's history produced by the invaders and colonizers. In modern India, claims he, secular and Marxist historians fabricated "idealized versions" of India's past and drained it of her Vedic context and content. Oak's World Vedic Heritage (a huge tome of 1375 pages and 150 illustrations) was written to put India's (and world's) history straight. It relies on scraps and bits of hard evidence that most academics will not touch since they dread being laughed at by their peers. In his voluminous output Oak cleverly makes logical use of whatever evidence that may exist in favour of his hypothesis such that the reader reluctantly concedes that something like what Oak describes could have happened. He also succeeds in disturbing a sensitive reader. His claim, for instance, that ancient Indians were excellent seafarers and travelled far more widely than European or Muslim historians have led us to believe, is worth pursuing. This thesis of Oak is comparable, in its approach, to Canadian writer Farley Mowat's claim (made in his recent book The Farfarers) that Albans (ancient inhabitants of northern British Isles) explored and even settled North America. Oak obviously draws on a living tradition of speculative and imaginative historiography and fantastic etymology that goes back to Yaska and Vyasa where history and myth imperceptibly flow together. In my meting with him, Oak was gracious enough to acknowledge that some of his conclusions or accounts are founded on conjecture and/or analogy. But he appeared coy as he repeated, in rapid fire succession, some of the more amusing "Oakisms" that Ed Bryant shared with us in his recent post to this list. In the end, I came away with the impression that when hard evidence is lacking, Oak moves back and forth between the conditional and the indicative moods. In one of his works (I do not recall which right now and members of this list will correct me if I am wrong), Sylvain Levy used a similar approach to speculate on how India's history would have been if, like Nepal, India had remained Hindu. S.Tilak ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From John.Peterson at GERMANISTIK.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Thu Sep 23 09:06:46 1999 From: John.Peterson at GERMANISTIK.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (John Peterson) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 99 11:06:46 +0200 Subject: Website at the Institute for Oriental Studies, Thane Message-ID: <161227052487.23782.14494906888612970335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > with the address > > http://www.orientalthane.com This is > > This web server does not have a DNS entry as of this morning (Thursday > 23rd). The address must have been working at some time, however, since it > is listed by Altavista (search for orientalthane). Perhaps the technical > difficulty will be ironed out soon? > It worked yesterday (at least the second of the two addresses). It must be a temporary problem. JP From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Thu Sep 23 15:08:10 1999 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 99 11:08:10 -0400 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227052496.23782.12719376439163104534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Have you seen B.K. Matilal's The Character of Logic in India (SUNY 1998)? ISBN 0-7914-3740-X. Dr. George Cronk Philosophy & Religion Bergen Community College Paramus, NJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Anna-Pya Sj?din To: Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 9:40 AM > Dear list members, > I'm searching for translation and/or analysis of two Nyaya-Vaishesika > texts: Shrivallabhas "Nyayalilavati" and Sarvadevas "Pramanamanjari" (If > there are any at all). Furthermore I would like to know if anyone is aware > of some recent treatise or book about Indian Logic. > > With kind regards, Anna-Pya Sjodin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Sep 23 18:45:58 1999 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 99 14:45:58 -0400 Subject: My Meeting with P.N.Oak In-Reply-To: <19990923174648.3603.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052502.23782.9979629617075862978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Shrinivas Tilak wrote: > While his fancy etymologies are truly a rich source of comic relief from > academic drudgery, I came away after a meeting with Purushottam Nagesh > (P.N.)Oak at his resodence in Pune in July 1998 with a nagging suspicion > that something is indeed amiss with India's recorded history. > In 1964 Oak founded the Institute for Rewriting Indian History in order > to rectify what he believes to be the biased and distorted versions of > India's history produced by the invaders and colonizers. Such nagging suspicions have become more and more representative of many scholars within the Indian academy. One has certainly enormous grounds to be suspicious of a version of ancient history that was determined by one's erstwhile colonial rulers. Historical revisionism has had positive and negative effects. On the positive side nationalist historiography has brought different assumptions, perspectives and concerns to the data, exposed colonial predispositions and imperial biases, forced a reevaluation of old dogmas, and provided resistance to racism. On the negative side, it has encouraged the misinterpretation of data for political purposes, distorted that past, limited the questions that are asked and the sum total of data that is brought into consideration, and reinforced the centralizing policies of emerging nationalisms. The question is, does the work of scholars like Oak contribute to the positive aspects of revisionism, or the negative? Even the RSS, which had cultivated Oak in an earlier period, have since distanced themselves from his views. His type of etymologizing contributes to scholars stereotyping anyone reconsidering any aspect of ancient history as having entrenched preconvictions that are upheld by a stunning lack of awareness of most of the relevant data. THis is not to say that his suspicions are illegitimate. It is a statement of the method (or lack thereof) that he employs to support them. From annapya.sjodin at AFRO.UU.SE Thu Sep 23 13:40:42 1999 From: annapya.sjodin at AFRO.UU.SE (=?utf-8?Q?Anna-Pya_Sj=C3=B6din?=) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 99 15:40:42 +0200 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227052491.23782.11424563853163444263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I'm searching for translation and/or analysis of two Nyaya-Vaishesika texts: Shrivallabhas "Nyayalilavati" and Sarvadevas "Pramanamanjari" (If there are any at all). Furthermore I would like to know if anyone is aware of some recent treatise or book about Indian Logic. With kind regards, Anna-Pya Sjodin From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Thu Sep 23 14:08:17 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 99 16:08:17 +0200 Subject: mRcchakaTika text Message-ID: <161227052494.23782.9994938057179160390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, does anybody know of an electronic text of zUdraka's mRcchakaTika? I have access only to Kale's edition, and it has some misprints I simply cannot rectify (especially those in the prAkRt part). In particular, in the very first sentence of Act I, maitreya says: ...pacchidavvAiM, v.l. bhakkhidavvAI (chAyA: prekSitavyAni / bhakSitavyAni). The language is supposed to be zaurasenI. Any help would be appreciated Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa assistant professor of philosophy E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu From avillarr at IS.DAL.CA Fri Sep 24 14:38:46 1999 From: avillarr at IS.DAL.CA (Alfredo Villarroel) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 99 10:38:46 -0400 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 22 Sep 1999 to 23 Sep 1999 (#1999-185) In-Reply-To: <199909232259.TAA21418@is.dal.ca> Message-ID: <161227052512.23782.12225998330111600469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 02:37:00 PDT >From: ". ." >Subject: What is indology? > >Hi, > >What is indology? > Let me change the question. How do you call the study of the civilization that flourish between 1000 BC up to 600 AC in the north part of what is now India, and the region of Pakistan and Afganistan. AV From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 24 17:48:19 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 99 10:48:19 -0700 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227052518.23782.13256343443484754513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear list members, >I'm searching for translation and/or analysis of two Nyaya-Vaishesika >texts: Shrivallabhas "Nyayalilavati" and Sarvadevas "Pramanamanjari" Nyayalilavati, with commentaries - Chaukhamba Sanskrit Series No. 64, 1991. Pramanamanjari, with a Hindi commentary - Anandamayi Kanyapitha, Varanasi, 1988. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Fri Sep 24 08:49:36 1999 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 99 10:49:36 +0200 Subject: World Sanskrit Conference, Torino Message-ID: <161227052504.23782.9631056172979629674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone let me know when exactly the next World Sanskrit Conference in Torino will take place? I have a vague memory that there has been a change of dates. Is it still possible to register? How does that work? Johannes Bronkhorst From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Fri Sep 24 09:33:52 1999 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 99 11:33:52 +0200 Subject: mRcchakaTika text In-Reply-To: <007901bf05ce$566191e0$0a51b59d@dial.elte.hu> Message-ID: <161227052507.23782.13524619053187371437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ferenc, 7F00,0000,0000> In particular, in the very first sentence of Act I, maitreya says: > ...pacchidavvAiM, v.l. bhakkhidavvAI (chAyA: prekSitavyAni / > bhakSitavyAni). The edition by N.B. Godabole (Bombay 1896, with P.rthviidhara?s commentary) reads bhakkhidavvaai.m (Skt. bhak.sitavyaani). P.rthviidhara comments: pa(!)khhidavvaaii(!).m [read: pekkhidavvaai.m] prek.sitavyaaniity artha.h | samiihitavyaaniity artha.h | bhakkhidavvaai.m iti paa.the 7F00,0000,0000bhak.sitavyaaniity artha.h | With kind regards, Roland -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 613 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Fri Sep 24 09:40:33 1999 From: aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Mikael Aktor) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 99 11:40:33 +0200 Subject: Sv: World Sanskrit Conference, Torino Message-ID: <161227052509.23782.9369939170730521913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> the XIth World Sanskrit Conference in Torino takes place 3-8 April 2000. The address of the conference is: Cesmeo, Via Cavour 17, I-10123 Torino, Italy. E-mail cesme at tin.it Web: http://www.asiatica.org/sktconf.asp Johannes Bronkhorst wrote: >Could anyone let me know when exactly the next World Sanskrit Conference in >Torino will take place? I have a vague memory that there has been a change >of dates. >Is it still possible to register? How does that work? From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Fri Sep 24 17:01:49 1999 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Rasik Vihari Joshi) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 99 12:01:49 -0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227052516.23782.14993261238362148430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wonder if you are familar with the following: 1.The Tarka-kaumudi of Laugaksi Bhaskara tras.as The Moon-light of Tarka, l986,Rampratap Shastri Publications Series No.8,(Rasik Vihari Joshi Choukhamba Sanskrit Pratisthan, ,38.U.A.Bungalow Road,Jawaharnagar,Post Box No.2112,Delhi-7 2.The Tarka-kaumudi of Laugaksi Bhaskara tras.as The Moon-light of Tarka, l991,Sofia Indological Series No.3.(Gradinarov)Ajanta Books International Bungalow Road,Delhi-7 Rasik Vihari At 03:40 PM 23/09/99 +0200, you wrote: >Dear list members, >I'm searching for translation and/or analysis of two Nyaya-Vaishesika >texts: Shrivallabhas "Nyayalilavati" and Sarvadevas "Pramanamanjari" (If >there are any at all). Furthermore I would like to know if anyone is aware >of some recent treatise or book about Indian Logic. > >With kind regards, Anna-Pya Sjodin > From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Sep 24 15:27:54 1999 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr.RM.Krishnan) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 99 20:27:54 +0500 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 22 Sep 1999 to 23 Sep 1999 (#1999-185) Message-ID: <161227052514.23782.17839269630610851713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 9/24/99 10:38:00 AM, you wrote: >>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 02:37:00 PDT >>From: ". ." >>Subject: What is indology? >> >>Hi, >> >>What is indology? >> > >Let me change the question. How do you call the study of the civilization >that flourish between 1000 BC up to 600 AC in the north part of what is now >India, and the region of Pakistan and Afganistan. > > >AV > > I am new to this list. My full name is Ramasamy Krishnan (RM.K). I have been an observer for the past 3 weeks and wanted to follow the postings to the extent I can understand,before I start contributing. Now I could not resist. You call Indology the study of the NORTH part of what is now India, and the region of Pakisthan and Afganisthan. I am completely surprised. What would you call the study of SOUTH part of India? Dravidology, perhaps! With regards, RM.K From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sun Sep 26 01:34:56 1999 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 99 18:34:56 -0700 Subject: The Origins of Indra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052524.23782.17559759182401490300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following book should prove useful: The Indian theogony: a comparative study of Indian mythology from the Vedas to the Puranas, by Sukumari Bhattacharji. There are different editions by different publishers. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 11:01 PM 09/25/1999 +0100, you wrote: >It is my understanding that the devolopment of the gods Indra, Soma, and >Agni precede that of Shiva and Vishnu. I have been unable to persuade a >friend that this was how the religions of India evolved. Showing her a >refence she discarded it as a "Western" source and quoted Sanskrit >scripture. I have dropped the subject with her but suspect her >understanding is derived froma devotional disposition, in contrast with my >more philosophical approach. Since the mythology of India absorbed and >adapted preceding aspects as it evolved, I am assuming that texts which >refer to Shiva represent a religion which already absorbed Indra into its >pantheon and placed him in a lower loka. Thus, whether older texts refer to >Indra without Shiva would not convice a devotee of Shiva that Indra >preceded Shiva. In any case, I need to get this clear in my own mind and if >anyone has particular knowledge on the chronology of the evolution of the >pantheon as it relates to Indra, I would much appreciate the information. > From strixspiral at YAHOO.COM Sat Sep 25 22:01:06 1999 From: strixspiral at YAHOO.COM (Daniel George) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 99 23:01:06 +0100 Subject: The Origins of Indra Message-ID: <161227052520.23782.3251405930574593562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is my understanding that the devolopment of the gods Indra, Soma, and Agni precede that of Shiva and Vishnu. I have been unable to persuade a friend that this was how the religions of India evolved. Showing her a refence she discarded it as a "Western" source and quoted Sanskrit scripture. I have dropped the subject with her but suspect her understanding is derived froma devotional disposition, in contrast with my more philosophical approach. Since the mythology of India absorbed and adapted preceding aspects as it evolved, I am assuming that texts which refer to Shiva represent a religion which already absorbed Indra into its pantheon and placed him in a lower loka. Thus, whether older texts refer to Indra without Shiva would not convice a devotee of Shiva that Indra preceded Shiva. In any case, I need to get this clear in my own mind and if anyone has particular knowledge on the chronology of the evolution of the pantheon as it relates to Indra, I would much appreciate the information. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Sep 25 23:34:29 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 99 00:34:29 +0100 Subject: The Origins of Indra Message-ID: <161227052522.23782.7138527540535411771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel George To: Sent: Saturday, September 25, 1999 11:01 PM Subject: The Origins of Indra > It is my understanding that the devolopment of the gods Indra, Soma, and > Agni precede that of Shiva and Vishnu. I have been unable to persuade a > friend that this was how the religions of India evolved. Showing her a > refence she discarded it as a "Western" source and quoted Sanskrit > scripture. I have dropped the subject with her but suspect her > understanding is derived froma devotional disposition, in contrast with my > more philosophical approach. Since the mythology of India absorbed and > adapted preceding aspects as it evolved, I am assuming that texts which > refer to Shiva represent a religion which already absorbed Indra into its > pantheon and placed him in a lower loka. Thus, whether older texts refer to > Indra without Shiva would not convice a devotee of Shiva that Indra > preceded Shiva. In any case, I need to get this clear in my own mind and if > anyone has particular knowledge on the chronology of the evolution of the > pantheon as it relates to Indra, I would much appreciate the information. Hello, Daniel ! My main area of expertise is Buddhism so I cannot speak with any authority -- somebody else more knowledgeable may reply. However, here is my take on your question. There seems to be a scholarly consensus that Shiva is a later "incarnation" of Rudra who is mentioned in the Vedas. There was possibly some syncreticism at work as it is also thought that Shiva per se was a local "tribal" pre/non-Vedic local deity. There is also a famous Indus Valley seal depicting a Shiva-like pashupati figure sitting in what is thought is a yogic meditational pose. The classic book covering Shiva is, of course, Stella Kramrisch's The Presence of Shiva. She also goes into detail about the relationship between Rudra and Indra. If you look at Buddhist texts, I think those that belong to the earliest strata preserved in Pali do not mention Shiva by name but there is increasing mention of him by the time one comes to Mahyana texts. The situation in Buddhist tantras is interesting as Shaivite sects were probably contemporary rivals. There is the famous chapter in the Sarva-tathagata-tattva-samgraha-tantra where Vajrapani (who has many of the attributes of Indra) overcomes Maheshvara (= Shiva). Hope this is of some help. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Sep 26 07:26:25 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 99 08:26:25 +0100 Subject: New Issue: El. Journ. of Vedic Studies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052528.23782.13231154116039360538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am please to announce a new issue of the Vol. 5 (1999), issue 1 (September) email: ejvs-list at shore.net www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs It contains one long paper: (web version to be out very soon, please check!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Michael Witzel Substrate Languages in Old Indo-Aryan (Rgvedic, Middle and Late Vedic) $ 0. Definitions $ 1. Greater Panjab $ 1.1. Rgveda substrate words $ 1.2. Para-Munda loan words in the Rgveda $ 1.3. Para-Munda and the Indus language of the Panjab $ 1.4. Munda and Para-Munda names $ 1.5. Other Panjab substrates $ 1.6. Dravidian in the Middle and Late Rgveda $ 1.7. Greater Sindh $ 1.8. The languages of Sindh $ 1.9. The Southern Indus language: Meluhhan $ 1.10. Further dialect differences $ 1.11. Dravidian immigration $ 2. Eastern Panjab and Upper Gangetic Plains $ 2.1. The Kuru realm $ 2.2. The substrates of Kuru-Pancala Vedic $ 2.3. The Para-Munda substrate $ 2.4. Substrates of the Lower Gangetic Plains and "Language X" $ 2.5. Tibeto-Burmese $ 2.6. Other Himalayan Languages $ 3. Central and South India $ 4. The Northwest $ 5. Indo-Iranian substrates from Central Asia and Iran $ 6. Conclusions. The paper investigates the various layers of South Asian languages that have been superimposed upon each other during the past few millennia. As will be seen, the usual "Aryan"-Dravidian divide is much too simple a concept to fit reality. Just as today, prehistoric South Asia was home to a number of language families, only some of which have survived as today's families, i.e. Indo-European (Sanskrit, Hindi etc.), Dravidian (Tamil, etc.), Munda (Santali, Mundari etc.), Tibeto-Burmese (Newari, Naga, Manipuri, etc.); in addition there are the remnant, isolated languages such as Burushaski in N. Pakistan, Kusunda in Central Nepal, Nahali in Central India, Vedda in Sri Lanka, and Andamanese. Further, it will become obvious that today's languages, for example Hindi, contain ancient layers that go back beyond all Aryan, Munda or Dravidian and that are close to the language of the first immigrating groups of Homo Sapiens sapiens, that entered South Asia from Africa, via Western Asia, some 30,000 years ago. Providing this kind of impartial historical relief to the ongoing discussion hopefully will steer it into calmer waters. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Sep 26 10:00:36 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 99 11:00:36 +0100 Subject: The New Catalogus Catalogorum Message-ID: <161227052526.23782.13297413271448837318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Earlier this year, I had the opportunity to visit the New Catalogus Catalogorum project at the University of Madras. I have visited several times before, but this time I was more struck than ever by the sense of despair hanging over the project, and expressed by the staff. I use the NCC regularly in my work, and find it invaluable. Flawed, yes, but nevertheless a unique and irreplaceable guide to the source material of Sanskrit and Prakrit literature. The volumes have reached no.13, PA. The prospect of further volumes appearing seems very distant given the present state of things, although staff continue to peg away at the job. I would not be entirely surprised if vol.13 were the last to appear. I should like to ask my colleagues on this list whether they feel that the NCC is valuable to them in their work, or even vital. I find that I still have to go to Aufrecht (c. 1900!) for titles beginning after "pa", except for works on jyotisa whose authors have been covered in Pingree's CESS. There are other important reference works too, of course, like VOHD II, which references earlier work well in its early volumes, but it is surprising how often Aufrecht remains the first choice when NCC isn't available. (Let's not argue about NCC v. CC.) If a consensus arises that the NCC is important and valuable, then perhaps we as a group can begin to consider what action - if any - might appropriately be taken to safeguard and promote the project. I have several ideas along these lines, which I would be interested in discussing. Not all of them require any effort on our part, beyond perhaps gathering some testimonials to the general effect that the project is vitally important to the future of cultural and historical studies in India. It is possible that advocates within the establishment in India may be able to help in important ways. Other ideas that I have considered do involve more "direct action", including fund-raising. If you are a user of the NCC, I would like to hear your opinions on this topic. Best, Dominik Wujastyk From strixspiral at YAHOO.COM Sun Sep 26 19:04:06 1999 From: strixspiral at YAHOO.COM (Daniel George) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 99 12:04:06 -0700 Subject: The Origins of Indra Message-ID: <161227052530.23782.4144137473040015278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Stephen, for the insights and leads. You have added several dimensions to my understanding, which I will pursue refinements to. May your pursuits flourish. -Daniel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Sep 26 20:05:45 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 99 13:05:45 -0700 Subject: The New Catalogus Catalogorum Message-ID: <161227052534.23782.4489809669068977431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I indeed use the NCC regularly (in conjuntion with Aufrect's catalog)and it is disappointing that this project might come to an end prematurely. The work of Aufrect is hopelessly out of date (but a monumental achievement without doubt, and still very useful) and with any new volumes of NCC not forthcomming, I have had to search the indiviual manuscript library catalogs to search for texts of lost Vedic Schools. Needless to say, they are only a poor substitute for the NCC. If you are planning to work on it, let me know and I can start looking at my texts from that perspective. ----Original Message Follows---- From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: The New Catalogus Catalogorum Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 11:00:36 +0100 Earlier this year, I had the opportunity to visit the New Catalogus Catalogorum project at the University of Madras. I have visited several times before, but this time I was more struck than ever by the sense of despair hanging over the project, and expressed by the staff. I use the NCC regularly in my work, and find it invaluable. Flawed, yes, but nevertheless a unique and irreplaceable guide to the source material of Sanskrit and Prakrit literature. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Sun Sep 26 20:10:19 1999 From: pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 99 16:10:19 -0400 Subject: sUta Message-ID: <161227052532.23782.10498752291247842960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, In the MBh, "sUta" refers both to a bard and to a charioteer of mixed caste. How are these two functions associated -- or are they? Has anyone done work on this? Thanks for any help you can give here! Patricia Greer ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia From cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM Mon Sep 27 00:16:02 1999 From: cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 99 18:16:02 -0600 Subject: defilements of the holy sounds - of the Vedas Message-ID: <161227052542.23782.6503448463821212329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I've been reading Cantwell Smith's the chapter called "the Hindu Instance" in it he suggests that "What the West calls "the" Veda [I think he refers to the rg veda] was emphatically not written down." He further suggests quoting C. Mackenzie Brown "The written images of an alphabet, far from giving visual access to the sacred words of the Veda, were regarded as defilements of the holy sounds" can anyone confirm or contradict these assertions? Thanks in advance Benjamin Fleming -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM Mon Sep 27 01:57:59 1999 From: kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM (Krishna Kalale) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 99 18:57:59 -0700 Subject: defilements of the holy sounds - of the Vedas Message-ID: <161227052544.23782.10769382032944186336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I feel that what Cantwell Smith's views are the e -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Fleming [SMTP:cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM] Sent: Sunday, September 26, 1999 5:16 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: defilements of the holy sounds - of the Vedas Dear list members, I've been reading Cantwell Smith's the chapter called "the Hindu Instance" in it he suggests that "What the West calls "the" Veda [I think he refers to the rg veda] was emphatically not written down." He further suggests quoting C. Mackenzie Brown "The written images of an alphabet, far from giving visual access to the sacred words of the Veda, were regarded as defilements of the holy sounds" can anyone confirm or contradict these assertions? Thanks in advance Benjamin Fleming << File: ATT00000.html >> From kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM Mon Sep 27 02:19:07 1999 From: kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM (Krishna Kalale) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 99 19:19:07 -0700 Subject: defilements of the holy sounds - of the Vedas Message-ID: <161227052546.23782.12739603759980188822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I feel that Cantwell's Smith's views are pretty much identical to the traditional philosophical view held by orthodox vedantins. For example, the statements like "rishayah mantra drastarah" which mean - rishis are seers of Vedas ie. They realized vedas in its original sound / light / realization form and they are not written texts. I personally believe in this view of Vedas and I should say that I underwent classical training in India for several years in philosophy / Upanisads / Bhagavadgita / Brahma sutras. More than the trai ining, the practical meditation of mantras "ie. vedic hymns" definitely opens up different meanings of the words and effects of what they represent. In fact the rule in yogasutras - tajjapah tadartha bhavanam - which means the japa or chanting of mantras have to be accompanied by contemplation of their meanings. This contemplation helps in assessing a visual representation of the meanings ie. the meanings appear like a reality as real as the reality around us. However, an audience of scientific community may not believe in this view at all. They may easily dispose this issue as "unwarranted extrapolation" or even " superimposition of personal beliefs on texts due to faith". However, it is true that Vedas were not written down for a long time since it was transmitted in a tradition of teacher to disciple orally. I guess this view is commonly accepted. Krishna Kalale -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Fleming [SMTP:cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM] Sent: Sunday, September 26, 1999 5:16 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: defilements of the holy sounds - of the Vedas Dear list members, I've been reading Cantwell Smith's the chapter called "the Hindu Instance" in it he suggests that "What the West calls "the" Veda [I think he refers to the rg veda] was emphatically not written down." He further suggests quoting C. Mackenzie Brown "The written images of an alphabet, far from giving visual access to the sacred words of the Veda, were regarded as defilements of the holy sounds" can anyone confirm or contradict these assertions? Thanks in advance Benjamin Fleming << File: ATT00000.html >> From kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM Mon Sep 27 05:53:43 1999 From: kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM (Krishna Kalale) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 99 22:53:43 -0700 Subject: The Origins of Indra Message-ID: <161227052548.23782.15002104644358517743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I dont know whether my views add to the confusion here or helps you in this regard. Philosophically speaking the term "indra" has several meanings. Indra is the name of the king of devas. This is the usual meaning. However, in Rgveda, there are statements such as : vayam indra tva sakhitvam arabhamahe - "O Indra let us start our friendship" indra, here represents the highest diety or Brahman. indro mayabhihi pururoopa iyate - Indra takes many forms by his maya or powers. Here also indra means "Brahman". This meaning ascribed to term indra makes the study difficult. Such a meaning given to indra is supported in the Brahmasutras - sakshat api avirodhat jaiminihi - which means "the terms such as indra, rudra, agni etc. can directly mean brahman". Hence, I personally feel that the study of development of gods such as Indra / rudra / shiva is quite a difficult task, since one needs to determine whether the direct meaning as the diety or brahman is meant in every occurrence of these terms. In kenopanisat, indra is understood as a lower diety compared to shiva, since Uma, consort of Shiva explains the secret knowledge of Brahman to Indra who is the head of devas. Whatever may be the development in the vedas, the summary of such development is summarized in Bhagavadgita - adityanam aham vishnuh ...... rudranam samkarashcasmi... etc. (see Sri Ramanuja Bhasya or Tatparya chandrika for 10th chapter of Gita). Here, the commentators club indra as one of the 12 aditya deities of which Vishnu is the highest. Shiva or Samkara is the highest of the Rudra deities which are 11 in number. Hence from the perspective of such a classification, Shiva and Indra belong to different sets of dieties - rudras and adityas respectively. Shiva is said to be "god of gods" in the sense, superior to Indra as per shatapatha brahmana verse - "hutvatmanam mahadevo deva devo babhuva". The bhagavadgita verse (adityanam aham vishnuh..), obviously assigns the position of antaryami or indwelling lord of all to Krishna. I am sure that I have not helped here to trace the development of these dieties in various scriptures. Hope this throws some more light on the subject. Krishna Kalale -----Original Message----- From: Daniel George [SMTP:strixspiral at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Saturday, September 25, 1999 3:01 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: The Origins of Indra It is my understanding that the devolopment of the gods Indra, Soma, and Agni precede that of Shiva and Vishnu. I have been unable to persuade a friend that this was how the religions of India evolved. Showing her a refence she discarded it as a "Western" source and quoted Sanskrit scripture. I have dropped the subject with her but suspect her understanding is derived froma devotional disposition, in contrast with my more philosophical approach. Since the mythology of India absorbed and adapted preceding aspects as it evolved, I am assuming that texts which refer to Shiva represent a religion which already absorbed Indra into its pantheon and placed him in a lower loka. Thus, whether older texts refer to Indra without Shiva would not convice a devotee of Shiva that Indra preceded Shiva. In any case, I need to get this clear in my own mind and if anyone has particular knowledge on the chronology of the evolution of the pantheon as it relates to Indra, I would much appreciate the information. From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Mon Sep 27 16:20:17 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 09:20:17 -0700 Subject: The New Catalogus Catalogorum Message-ID: <161227052536.23782.643473810102306854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The NCC is a vital and fundamental resource for those of us interested in Indology. Even those not directly using manuscripts need to realize that much of their scholarly source material was eventually derived from manuscripts by someone. Like the rainforests, who knows what is still left to discover in the manuscript heritage of South Asia. We have so few critical editions of Indic texts we still very much need access to manuscript resources. If the NCC does not continue then for those texts beyond PA (v.13) those of us who use manuscripts will be forced to rely on the 19th century tools or, as Vishal Agrawal has stated, go through individual catalogues of manuscript libraries. In case you think that's a viable option you need only read the introduction to K. L. Janert's An annotated bibliography of the catalogues of Indian manuscripts. (Wiesbaden : Franz Steiner, 1965). to see how few institutions even have good holdings of those catalogues. As an indication of the amount of material in manuscript I quote: "There are some 3.5 million manuscripts in various collections in India. In addition about 60,000 Indic manuscripts are preserved in 20 different countries of Europe and North America ... Only about one million manuscripts have been recorded in published catalogues or handlists brought out by libraries and institutions ... These one million manuscripts have been listed in about 2000 volumes of catalogues published till 1990; out of these nearly 300 were publised by overseas institutions." (Preface (p. xiv) to: Bibliographic survey of Indian manuscript catalogues : being a union list of manuscript catalogues / editor Subhas C. Biswas ; assistant editor M. K. Prajapati. xix, 330 p. ; 26 cm. Delhi : Eastern Book Linkers, 1988.ISBN 81-86339-75-2. Rs800.00--promoted as an updated version of Janert's 1965 listing. Janert listed 375 manuscript catalogues, this survey lists 1100 more (p. xvi)). So (numerically at least) most of the manuscript resources for Indological study are still in India, most of the catalogues have been published in India. The Madras project even commissioned special listings of otherwise undocumented material. I think we need to do whatever we can to promote the continuation of the project, this is after all India's heritage and it should be a national Indian project to present this material to the scholarly world. From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Mon Sep 27 16:30:37 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 09:30:37 -0700 Subject: The New Catalogus Catalogorum Message-ID: <161227052538.23782.4758084843741174313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops, Biswas was published 1998 not 1988. From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU Mon Sep 27 15:15:17 1999 From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 10:15:17 -0500 Subject: Sv: World Sanskrit Conference, Torino In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990927142758.00697994@helios.unive.it> Message-ID: <161227052557.23782.1629016172431954584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just tried the web address and had no difficulties getting the information. Hans Henrich Hock >I think the web address is not correct. I have unsuccessfully tried it many >times. > >At 11.40 24/09/99 +0200, you wrote: > >the XIth World Sanskrit Conference in Torino takes place 3-8 April 2000. > > > >The address of the conference is: > > > >Cesmeo, > >Via Cavour 17, > >I-10123 Torino, > >Italy. > >E-mail cesme at tin.it > >Web: http://www.asiatica.org/sktconf.asp Hans Henrich Hock, Director Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies 220 International Studies Building, MC-489 910 S. Fifth Street Champaign IL 61820 217-265-5016, 217-244-7331 fax 217-333-6270 e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu ***Visit our website at: http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/ From HWW-GR at T-ONLINE.DE Mon Sep 27 10:43:13 1999 From: HWW-GR at T-ONLINE.DE (Heinz Werner Wessler) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 12:43:13 +0200 Subject: sUta Message-ID: <161227052550.23782.7766261075299153970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > In the MBh, "sUta" refers both to a bard and to a > charioteer of mixed caste. How are these two functions > associated -- or are they? Has anyone done work on this? > Thanks for any help you can give here! > > Patricia Greer According to Artha/s-astra 3,7.31, the s-uta as Bard is different from the s-uta being a person of mixed caste (k.satriya father and br-ahma.na mother). Otherwise, among modern bardic castes, a tradition of pratiloma origin is still alive. Ludo Rocher in his book on the Pur-a.nas (1986, History of Indian Literature) refers to some literature on the s-uta--issue (p.53ff). Dr.Heinz Werner Wessler Bergstr. 27A D-53844 Troisdorf Tel./Fax: +49-228-455125 From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Sep 27 16:52:09 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 12:52:09 -0400 Subject: New Catalogus Catalogorum Message-ID: <161227052564.23782.4910593574712306900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another reason the continutation of this tool (and it must be a continuation, not just a 'completion,' because there will be new catalogs produced indefinitely) is that it depends on and includes information from handlists produced by Raghavan (and others, I believe) that are not published, and incorporating these into the NCC adds much value beyond the potential of simply publishing the handlists. Allen Thrasher From sharmave at UNIVE.IT Mon Sep 27 12:27:58 1999 From: sharmave at UNIVE.IT (Ghanshyam Sharma) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 14:27:58 +0200 Subject: Sv: World Sanskrit Conference, Torino In-Reply-To: <008f01bf0670$d9a905e0$276626c0@0.46> Message-ID: <161227052552.23782.11280742194261872871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the web address is not correct. I have unsuccessfully tried it many times. At 11.40 24/09/99 +0200, you wrote: >the XIth World Sanskrit Conference in Torino takes place 3-8 April 2000. > >The address of the conference is: > >Cesmeo, >Via Cavour 17, >I-10123 Torino, >Italy. >E-mail cesme at tin.it >Web: http://www.asiatica.org/sktconf.asp From jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU Mon Sep 27 15:47:26 1999 From: jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU (J. Daniel White) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 16:47:26 +0100 Subject: The New Catalogus Catalogorum Message-ID: <161227052560.23782.8661951823510876491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik, Yes, the New Catalogus Catalogorum project is invaluable to all of us for whom Sanskrit textual study is vital. My sense for a long time has been that morale at Madras and especially in the Dept of Sanskrit has been quite low (understandably) for several reasons and that, along with the absence of funds(one of the morale reasons) may be a key point. If we did try to raise money (say by subscription), I would want us to be very careful overseeing that it is spent directly on the project's production. My best to you and Julia, Dan >Earlier this year, I had the opportunity to visit the New Catalogus >Catalogorum project at the University of Madras. I have visited several >times before, but this time I was more struck than ever by the sense of >despair hanging over the project, and expressed by the staff. > >I use the NCC regularly in my work, and find it invaluable. Flawed, yes, >but nevertheless a unique and irreplaceable guide to the source material >of Sanskrit and Prakrit literature. > >The volumes have reached no.13, PA. The prospect of further volumes >appearing seems very distant given the present state of things, although >staff continue to peg away at the job. I would not be entirely surprised >if vol.13 were the last to appear. > >I should like to ask my colleagues on this list whether they feel that the >NCC is valuable to them in their work, or even vital. > >I find that I still have to go to Aufrecht (c. 1900!) for titles beginning >after "pa", except for works on jyotisa whose authors have been covered in >Pingree's CESS. There are other important reference works too, of course, >like VOHD II, which references earlier work well in its early volumes, but >it is surprising how often Aufrecht remains the first choice when NCC >isn't available. (Let's not argue about NCC v. CC.) > >If a consensus arises that the NCC is important and valuable, then perhaps >we as a group can begin to consider what action - if any - might >appropriately be taken to safeguard and promote the project. > >I have several ideas along these lines, which I would be interested in >discussing. Not all of them require any effort on our part, beyond >perhaps gathering some testimonials to the general effect that the project >is vitally important to the future of cultural and historical studies in >India. It is possible that advocates within the establishment in India >may be able to help in important ways. Other ideas that I have considered >do involve more "direct action", including fund-raising. > >If you are a user of the NCC, I would like to hear your opinions on this >topic. > >Best, >Dominik Wujastyk > From garzilli at SHORE.NET Tue Sep 28 00:07:29 1999 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 20:07:29 -0400 Subject: Sv: World Sanskrit Conference, Torino Message-ID: <161227052566.23782.13770216028258995626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The site works perfectly, and it is very fast. EG http://www.asiatica.org/sktconf.asp Ghanshyam Sharma wrote: > > I think the web address is not correct. I have unsuccessfully tried it many > times. > > At 11.40 24/09/99 +0200, you wrote: > >the XIth World Sanskrit Conference in Torino takes place 3-8 April 2000. > > > >The address of the conference is: > > > >Cesmeo, > >Via Cavour 17, > >I-10123 Torino, > >Italy. > >E-mail cesme at tin.it > >Web: http://www.asiatica.org/sktconf.asp -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Sep 27 16:22:01 1999 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr.RM.Krishnan) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 21:22:01 +0500 Subject: sUta Message-ID: <161227052562.23782.14654967416203717345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 9/27/99 12:43:00 PM, you wrote: >> In the MBh, "sUta" refers both to a bard and to a >> charioteer of mixed caste. How are these two functions >> associated -- or are they? Has anyone done work on this? >> Thanks for any help you can give here! >> >> Patricia Greer > >According to Artha/s-astra 3,7.31, the s-uta as Bard is different from the s-uta >being a person of mixed caste (k.satriya father and br-ahma.na mother). >Otherwise, among modern bardic castes, a tradition of pratiloma origin is still >alive. > >Ludo Rocher in his book on the Pur-a.nas (1986, History of Indian Literature) >refers to some literature on the s-uta--issue (p.53ff). > > >Dr.Heinz Werner Wessler >Bergstr. 27A >D-53844 Troisdorf >Tel./Fax: +49-228-455125 > If we take 'sUta' to be a prakrit word, then it should correspond to 'sUtra' in Sanskrit. Early Aryan society considered both bards and charioteers of mixed caste a sUdra, if my understanding is correct. Karna was considered sUtra in the epic and hence he was not considered a kshatriya. Dhuriyodhana gave him a kingdom; others grudgingly forgot the sUtra issue atleast in front of him. With regards, RM.K. From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Mon Sep 27 20:34:26 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 21:34:26 +0100 Subject: sUta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052570.23782.706506197992070346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Priority: NORMAL Date sent: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 16:10:19 -0400 Send reply to: Indology From: Patricia Meredith Greer Subject: sUta To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Dear Indologists, > > In the MBh, "sUta" refers both to a bard and to a > charioteer of mixed caste. How are these two functions > associated -- or are they? Has anyone done work on this? > Thanks for any help you can give here! > > Patricia Greer > > ________________________________ > Patricia M. Greer > Department of Religious Studies > University of Virginia I do not have my reference books at hand at the moment. But relying on my memory I can say that sUta is basically a mixed caste, an issue of a BrAhmana mother and a kSatriya father, (see ManusmRti for details), traditionally employed as a charioteer. Being close to royal families for generations in this capacity, a sUta was also in command of the history of the royal families which qualified him as a bard. The first narrator/propagator of the great epic MahAbhArata of VyAsa was a sUta. Sauti, his son, carried on his profession when SUta was slain by BalarAma in a fit of anger. There may be more aspects to this issue for which I may advise you to explore the monumental History of DharmazAstra by Mm P. V. Kane published by the Bhandarkar Ori. Research Inst., Pune. KSA From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Mon Sep 27 20:34:26 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 21:34:26 +0100 Subject: Fate of NCC Message-ID: <161227052572.23782.8839267995336434394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 27-9-1999 I was sorry to read the present plight of the New Catalogus Catalogorum being published from Madras, India. I know how Dr V Raghavan was consolidating all the resources and contacts at his command to make the project viable, since 1956, when as a young scholar of Sanskrit I had an opportunity to work under him in the Sanskrit Commission appointed by the Govt of India. The report of this Commission discusses, among other things, the importance of preserving Mss material in India and the publication of catalogues thereof. This mission is being pursued in another direction by Dr Kapila Vatsyayan of Delhi who, as the head of the Indira Gandhi Institute for the Arts, has sponsored the microfilming of a large number of select Mss all over India. Dr Ashok Aklujkar of UBC, Canada has valuable information on Mss collections all over India which he collected during his sustained search of this material for many years, maybe for his personal studies. I know the difficulties in organising publication of catalogues of Mss as I am, as a trustee of the Anandashram Samstha, Pune (India), trying to bring out a one-line catalogue (for Descriptive Catalogues take many years to prepare and are never complete) of Sanskrit Mss of the thousands preserved in the Institute. The two basic problems of such projects are finance and Sanskrit expertise heading towards extinction. Dominik's posting on this subject raises the question whether it is not high time the international community of scholars interested in this line of learning makes a joint effort to save projects like NCC from being given up midstream. I also see that the huge project of A Dictionary of Sanskrit on Historical Principles sponsored by the Deccan College, Pune is facing a similar fate despite the foundational work of collecting references from Sanskrit works to the tune of a crore (ten million). One direction of organising such efforts is to set up a body to work as a link between such projects and UNESCO which has schemes to support enerprises of cultural importance all over the world. Another line would be to create a public trust on the support of private individuals and institutes working in this area. The economics of such trusts founded in the West is that one British pound fetches about 70 Rupees in India, and one American dollar over 40 Rupees. In other words, what is a trifle to a person in the west spells a fortune for one in India. I should be happy to have a feedback on this subject from members of Indology list. KSA From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Mon Sep 27 18:26:43 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 22:26:43 +0400 Subject: sUta Message-ID: <161227052568.23782.12364159182754429702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ms Greer, I hope you will forgive me for citing the draft text of my own paper read at the Second Dubrovnik International Conference on Sanskrit Epics and PurANas this August. The title of the paper is "Indian tIrthas as a possible environment of the MahAbhArata's and transition from fluidity to a fixed form". This is how I see the historical evolution of the sUta's status (at least it seems to me to be the best possible explanation of the whole epic database bearing on the sUtas' position): "Original epic performer, ancient sUta, was, as we know, a king's charioter (at the same time his personal cook, probably also bodyguard and physician when needed). He was well versed in the kSatriyan legendary lore, warriors' code of honour, customs and rules, royal genealogies and epic tales of the past - in the battle epizodes we see sometimes that a royal warrior in the middle of battle asks his sUta for an advice or a sUta himself, when he sees that his chariot fighter fails to fulfill his duty, preaches to him a sermon on kSatriyan svadharma, referring to famous precedents in legendary past (see, e.g. III.19.15-16; 23.20-25; 190.46; V.8.29-30; VIII.18.52-54; 28.5-8). By the way, it should not be forgotten that KRSNa, by preaching to Arjuna the sermon of the BhG on the field of battle, simply fulfills his sUta's duty. A sUta was also a witness to a noble warrior's great deeds (that's why so often a warrior before attacking the enemy addresses his sUta with such words as: "Witness now the might of my arms.." etc.) - and he also had to be ready at any moment to describe these glorious deeds of his patron in an improvised panegiric. This function of the sUta is probably personified in the image of Samjaya. It should be stressed that this suta of the old type could sing anywhere and anytime at his patron's (king's or noble warrior's) orders. Quite different was the situation with the performance of the epic poetry at the later period. The epic songs were now sung on the roads of pilgrimage and the Mbh as a whole was being performed at a particular period of time - during four months of the rainy season (Bomb. ed. I.62.32; XVIII.6.22ff.)...... ....The symbiotic co-existence of sUtas and Brahmans at the tIrthas led to the gradual change in the social image and status of the epic "singers of tales". There appeared some transitory types of the epic performers: first, besides the early kSatriya sUta whose reputation in the eyes of the late epic singers was fairly low, there appeared a new type - sUta paurANika, whom the late epic calls *munikalpa* 'equal to the ascetics' (I.57.82); the difference between the two is evident, by the way, in the ArthazAstra 3.60.30-31, where the ancient sUta's origin is traced to a pratiloma marriage of a kSatriya with a brahmana woman; and such an origin, in spite of a supposed brahman connection, is considered to be low. But - the text goes on - there is another sUta - the paurANika, whose status is even higher than that of both kSatriyas and brahmans. Another transitory type of the epic performers may be seen in the BhArgavas as a Brahman gotra standing particularly close to warriors and kings (as specialists and consultants in black magic, teachers of the art of war etc.) and, on the other hand, having a strong connection with some important tIrthas, as, e.g., RAmahrAdAH, the great tIrtha on KurukSetra".... Hope it may help. All the best Yaroslav Vassilkov From kappa-y at NN.IIJ4U.OR.JP Mon Sep 27 14:59:08 1999 From: kappa-y at NN.IIJ4U.OR.JP (Yasuhiro Okazaki) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 23:59:08 +0900 Subject: The New Catalogus Catalogorum Message-ID: <161227052555.23782.8314462645632222894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members I am a beginner of NCC, so can not estimate its true value. But I am surprised at its usefullnes, and sorry to be late at using it. If anyone want to study some classical Indian works, he had better firstly look up NCC. It will give some key to study Besides a private Indologist, as I, as well as even ones belonging to public institute can not access all catalogues of Indian manuscripts. By looking up NCC, we can get at least the information where the manuscripts in question is held. It is very useful. I am also sorry the situation of NCC project which Wujastyk has reported. I don't have any idea about this problem now, but if I can participate any movement to continue NCC project, I will be very happy. Best Regards Yasuhiro Okazaki 613-2 Arima, Chiyoda-cho, Hiroshima-ken, Japan 731-15 TEL&FAX +81-826-72-8851 Office Hiroshima Prefectual Kabe High School TEL +81-82-814-2032 kappa-y at nn.iij4u.or.jp From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Tue Sep 28 15:09:01 1999 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 99 11:09:01 -0400 Subject: Anyone want translation practice? Message-ID: <161227052581.23782.4955830280676607351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I received this rather curious e-mail today. I'm about to leave on vacation, so I'm passing on it. But perhaps someone on this list might want some practice translating? I have no idea what the message is about--or who is going to read it! Adam's e-mail address is: Photog68 at aol.com -------------------------- Hi Brian, I was doing a desperate search on AOL for elite individuals who are esteemed enough to have achieved the ability to fluently read and write Sanskrit and as a result, I came upon your profile quite excitedly, prompting me to write you this letter. I wanted to know if you would be kind enough to translate a few lines that I wish to communicate to someone from English into Sanskrit. I can't imagine the message being longer than two paragraphs or so, however, it is vital that I can get it converted into Sanskrit. I'm assuming it would require you sending me something via snail mail, as it's unlikely you have a Sanskrit friendly keyboard. If you would be able to help me out, I would be greatly appreciative. Thanks for your time. Adam From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Tue Sep 28 10:12:51 1999 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Vielle Christophe) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 99 12:12:51 +0200 Subject: Fate of NCC In-Reply-To: <085725837201b99HAL9000@cwcom.net> Message-ID: <161227052574.23782.6980772309672079892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> KSA Arjunwadkar wrote 27-9-1999 I know the difficulties >in organising publication of catalogues of Mss as I am, as a trustee >of the Anandashram Samstha, Pune (India), trying to bring out a >one-line catalogue (for Descriptive Catalogues take many years to >prepare and are never complete) of Sanskrit Mss of the thousands >preserved in the Institute. The two basic problems of such projects >are finance and Sanskrit expertise heading towards extinction. >Dominik's posting on this subject raises the question whether it is >not high time the international community of scholars interested in >this line of learning makes a joint effort to save projects like NCC >from being given up midstream An one-line NCC could be an idea. All the participants to that new possible project would scan the pages of a certain amount of printed catalogues (descriptive or not, rare or common) and (unique) hand-lists, and send them to "the" volunteer responsable of the centralisation and the organisation of the digitalized material, which could be so available to all from a big server. Search-tools should be then conceived to navigate within that marvellous data-base. Of course it is a dream. A first important thing should be the making of an updated Catalogus Catalogorum sticto sensu, i.e. a sequel to Janert's annotated bibliography (it seems that the project of his 2nd volume has been abandonned according to what Harrassowitz wrote to me). The NCC in its actual form could also be quickly concluded through the publication of its unedited material, that is, I suppose, a lot of a paper slips, by the simple photography of them, without "typographic" and real "editorial" work except the respect of their alphabetical order. The several volumes resulting from that could be very useful for all. Anyway, the NCC is an indispensable tool, even if, from my little experience with it, its references have always to be checked again, and about 20% of the available and already catalogued Mss. material are not listed therein. Dr. Christophe Vielle Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud Institut orientaliste Place Blaise Pascal 1 B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve (Belgium) Tel. 32+10+47 49 54 From garzilli at SHORE.NET Tue Sep 28 16:13:50 1999 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 99 12:13:50 -0400 Subject: IJTS Call for papers Message-ID: <161227052584.23782.4959507679516331473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >IJTS CALL FOR PAPERS >We are now calling for papers for the *International Journal of Tantric Studies* (ISSN 1084-7553) http://www.asiatica.org/ Editor-in-Chief: E. Garzilli - Managing Editor: M. Witzel Technical Editor: L. Magnocavallo Editorial Board: O. Botto, M. Hara, K. van Kooij, D. N. Lorenzen, M. Nihom, B. Preciado, M. Rabe, D. Sen Sharma This Journal is open to all bona fide scholars in Tantric Studies in Sanskrit, Bengali, Vernacular, Tibetan, Chinese, Japanese, etc. Particular attention is paid to the Trika schools of Kashmir. This Journal was primarily established to publish on Tantras scholarly topics concerning one or more parts of them. This includes the philosophy of language, of knowledge, aesthetics, rhetoric, etc. It also includes e.g. architectural Tantric-based items, stotras, papers on Tantric authors, medicine, chemistry, astronomy/astrology, history of Tantrism, etc. We gladly publish Tantric and Tantric-related translations and editions. All papers have to be unpublished. The *IJTS* is a refereed, multi-award winning, copyrighted journal. It is one of the oldest scholarly e-journals (born on May 30, 1995), and the *first* to introduce on the Web a "Computer Space -- dedicated to explore innovative ways of researching in Asian Studies using new technologies with reviews of programs and fonts, a long study on how to collect and manage Asian resources, etc. It was also the *first* e-journal to introduce a "New Titles" sections with review-papers and reviews of books, and presentation of new titles (books and papers). * This is a Call for Papers for the Tantric section, for the Computer Space section, and the New Titles section. * We do not have a deadline for submitting papers. * Papers can be as long as it is needed. Please send contributions to: *Enrica Garzilli* at garzilli at shore.net or garzilli at asiatica.org *Michael Witzel* at witzel at fas.harvard.edu Bagchee Associates, a leading Indological book dealer supports this publication. http://www.bagchee.com -----------------------------END--------------------------------- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Sep 28 20:20:50 1999 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 99 13:20:50 -0700 Subject: Aryabhatt (Elder) In-Reply-To: <19990928130604.43618.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052586.23782.7995226509760236875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kailash, For a serious study of Indian astronomy you should looks at the writings of David Pingree. A good place to start would be: "History of mathematical Astronomy in India," in Dictionary of Scientific Biography, vols. 15-16:533-633. Ed. by C.C. Gillispie. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1981. This is a reference work that should be easily available. For Aryabhata in particular, I would recommend the book: Aryabhatiya of Aryabhata, critical edition with translation. K.S. Shukla and K.V. Sarma. New Delhi: Indian National Science Academy, 1976. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann, Ph.D. Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California, Berkeley From se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 28 15:06:03 1999 From: se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (Kailash Srivastava) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 99 15:06:03 +0000 Subject: Aryabhatt (Elder) Message-ID: <161227052578.23782.6639149489724355381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let me introduce myself. My name is Kailash Srivastava and I come from India. I live in Sweden and work for a multinational company. By profession, I am a research engineer and have a PhD degree in electrical engineering. I have recently got interested in reading about ancient India's achievements with respect to science and technology. I usually get some questions which I can not answere. Usually, news groups like soc.cultre.indian etc. do not appear to be a serious place for my questions. I am not sure if this is right place for me but I am sure there are people knowledgeble enough to answer my stupid questions. My first question is on Aryabhatt (elder). I read in "India's Contribution to World Culture" that AryaBhatt was the first to propound heliocentric theory of gravitation much before Copernicus. However, I do not find such reference anywhere else including MS-Encarta. He also gave various mathematical formulas that too do not find a place anywhere. What are the possible reasons for this? This is all for time being. Thanx/Kailash ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pfillioz at GIASBG01.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Sep 28 11:06:42 1999 From: pfillioz at GIASBG01.VSNL.NET.IN (P. Filliozat) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 99 16:36:42 +0530 Subject: The New Catalogus Catalogorum Message-ID: <161227052576.23782.10201929419532831776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As an old user of the New Catalogus Catalogorum, I wish to give my testimony to the extreme usefulness of this vast undertaking. I know it since the inception of its first volumes in the fifties. Its utility is not limited to information about the existence and availability of manuscripts. It is a source of valuable informations on the literary history of India. I consult it often for information about authors, dates, etc., or in search of a clue to differentiate homonymous authors or works. There may be some flaws and outdated matter. But there is the mark of V. Raghavan's immense erudition in many different branches. Not only the published volumes are of great help to all Indologists. But the Madras scriptorium where they are prepared contains a very rich material. Many Indologists have probably visited it and obtained complementary informations in and out of the range of the published volumes, as I have many times obtained from Prof. V. Raghavan and his obliging staff. As it is a matter of concern to all Sanskritists, it could be a question examined by the International Sanskrit Association whose world conference is to be held next year. P.-S. Filliozat From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Sep 28 21:01:38 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 99 17:01:38 -0400 Subject: Trikarmi brahmins? Message-ID: <161227052588.23782.15970355711999696369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am reading a Sanskrit text that deals with the question of whether Vaishyas are eligible for Vedic rituals in the present day. The first 2 pages of this printed work are missing, and hence I do not know the title of this work. However, it looks like a Nir.naya document composed by some authority from the Shankar tradition. It is published with a Marathi translation, and dated Shaka era 1847. One of the discussions refers to Trikarmi brahmins, who are half-brahmins. They can learn the Vedas, perform rites for themselves, and give gifts, but they are not permitted to teach the Vedas, perform rites for others, and receive gifts. Among such Trikarmi brahmins, the text mentions the following names: Koppalu (= Koppal in Karnataka?) Caturvi.mzati Sakalatrapuravaasin Zi.syavarga Such a belief is commonly held about the Gaud Sarasvat brahmins by other brahmins of Maharashtra (Citpaavan, Dezastha etc), but I have no idea about these other groups. Any information regarding these names and communities is appreciated. Best, Madhav Deshpande From richard_quick at QUICK2001.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Sep 29 02:08:15 1999 From: richard_quick at QUICK2001.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Richard Quick) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 03:08:15 +0100 Subject: Aryabhatt (Elder) Message-ID: <161227052590.23782.7904833855856569159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:06:03 CEST, Kailash Srivastava wrote: >Let me introduce myself. > >My name is Kailash Srivastava and I come from India. I live in Sweden and >work for a multinational company. By profession, I am a research engineer >and have a PhD degree in electrical engineering. > >I have recently got interested in reading about ancient India's achievements >with respect to science and technology. I usually get some questions which I >can not answere. Usually, news groups like soc.cultre.indian etc. do not >appear to be a serious place for my questions. I am not sure if this is >right place for me but I am sure there are people knowledgeble enough to >answer my stupid questions. > >My first question is on Aryabhatt (elder). > >I read in "India's Contribution to World Culture" that AryaBhatt was the >first to propound heliocentric theory of gravitation much before Copernicus. >However, I do not find such reference anywhere else including MS-Encarta. He >also gave various mathematical formulas that too do not find a place >anywhere. > >What are the possible reasons for this? > >This is all for time being. > >Thanx/Kailash > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Some of the Ancient Greeks, including Aristarchus of Samos, Philolaus of Tarentum & Heraclides of Pontus, placed the Earth and other planets in motion around the Sun, with the earth spinning daily on it's axis. This was well before either Aryabhatt or Copernicus. This idea, however, was rejected by the people in favor of Aristotle's geocentric theory. Claudius Ptolemy wrote in Almagest around 140 AD that the Earth was motionless because constant gales would sweep across it if it were in motion. It was Ptolemy's theory of 'epycycles' which was adopted by the Roman Catholic Church. Copernicus aparantly knew of the work of the Greeks. From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Wed Sep 29 12:55:19 1999 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 08:55:19 -0400 Subject: Aryabhatt (Elder) Message-ID: <161227052602.23782.15811188822460666206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "It was Ptolemy's theory of 'epycycles' which was adopted by the Roman Catholic Church." Do you really mean that, Richard? You can't mean that the RC Church "adopted" Ptolemy's theory of epicycles as official RC doctrine. If it had, then, even today, the RC Church would insist that its adherents accept the Ptolemaic theory. It doesn't. Just for the record, I am not a Roman Catholic. George Cronk Philosophy & Religion Bergen Community College (NJ) ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Quick To: Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 10:08 PM Subject: Re: Aryabhatt (Elder) > On Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:06:03 CEST, Kailash Srivastava > wrote: > > >Let me introduce myself. > > > >My name is Kailash Srivastava and I come from India. I live in Sweden and > >work for a multinational company. By profession, I am a research engineer > >and have a PhD degree in electrical engineering. > > > >I have recently got interested in reading about ancient India's > achievements > >with respect to science and technology. I usually get some questions which > I > >can not answere. Usually, news groups like soc.cultre.indian etc. do not > >appear to be a serious place for my questions. I am not sure if this is > >right place for me but I am sure there are people knowledgeble enough to > >answer my stupid questions. > > > >My first question is on Aryabhatt (elder). > > > >I read in "India's Contribution to World Culture" that AryaBhatt was the > >first to propound heliocentric theory of gravitation much before > Copernicus. > >However, I do not find such reference anywhere else including MS-Encarta. > He > >also gave various mathematical formulas that too do not find a place > >anywhere. > > > >What are the possible reasons for this? > > > >This is all for time being. > > > >Thanx/Kailash > > > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > Some of the Ancient Greeks, including Aristarchus of Samos, Philolaus of > Tarentum & Heraclides of Pontus, placed the Earth and other planets in > motion around the Sun, with the earth spinning daily on it's axis. This > was well before either Aryabhatt or Copernicus. This idea, however, was > rejected by the people in favor of Aristotle's geocentric theory. > > Claudius Ptolemy wrote in Almagest around 140 AD that the Earth was > motionless because constant gales would sweep across it if it were in > motion. It was Ptolemy's theory of 'epycycles' which was adopted by the > Roman Catholic Church. > > Copernicus aparantly knew of the work of the Greeks. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Sep 29 08:26:05 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 09:26:05 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit quote Message-ID: <161227052592.23782.16051609864653433032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Any replies directly to Julius Lipner, please. Thanks on his behalf, DW ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:42:52 +0100 (BST) From: Dr J.J. Lipner To: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: Sanskrit quote + flora & fauna Dominik, [...] Also, please be so kind to put out my request for a textual location of janani janmabhumis ca svargad api gariyasi on Indology. Thanks. Hope you're well. As ever, Julius From kellera at PARIS7.JUSSIEU.FR Wed Sep 29 08:28:59 1999 From: kellera at PARIS7.JUSSIEU.FR (Agathe Keller) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 10:28:59 +0200 Subject: Aryabhatt (Elder) Message-ID: <161227052595.23782.2384762348173824179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Concerning AryabhaTa's theory of the earth's rotation, and its posterity in India, you can also look at R. Bhattacharya, The case of AryabhaTa and his detractors, The Indian Historical Revieuw, Vol XVII, number 1-2, July 1990-January 1991, p. 35-47. >For a serious study of Indian astronomy you should looks at the writings of >David Pingree. A good place to start would be: > >"History of mathematical Astronomy in India," in Dictionary of Scientific >Biography, vols. 15-16:533-633. Ed. by C.C. Gillispie. New York: Charles >Scribner's Sons, 1981. This is a reference work that should be easily >available. > >For Aryabhata in particular, I would recommend the book: Aryabhatiya of >Aryabhata, critical edition with translation. K.S. Shukla and K.V. Sarma. >New Delhi: Indian National Science Academy, 1976. > Agathe Keller 141 rue de Paris 93100 Montreuil (33 1) 55 86 28 16 From zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Wed Sep 29 08:38:33 1999 From: zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 10:38:33 +0200 Subject: Help with sources Message-ID: <161227052597.23782.2413505053886900210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should appreciate help in locating the following sources: 1. Kandarpac-u.d-ama.ni of V-irabhadra. Any edition. 2. S'.rng-aramanjari of Saint Akbar Shah. Ed. by V. Raghavan 3. U.d.d-i.satantra. Any edition 4. Kriyo.d.d-i.satantra. Any edition. Sites in Europe would be or personal photocopies preferred. Many thanks, KG Zysk -- Kenneth Zysk Department of Asian Studies University of Copenhagen Leifsgade 33,5 Ph: +45 3532 8832; Fax: +45 3532 8835 DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Email: zysk at coco.ihi.ku.dk From cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM Wed Sep 29 17:46:56 1999 From: cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 11:46:56 -0600 Subject: defilements of the holy sounds - of the Vedas Message-ID: <161227052605.23782.9109696705259062607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: Krishna Kalale To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Sunday, September 26, 1999 8:03 PM Subject: Re: defilements of the holy sounds - of the Vedas >However, it is true that Vedas were not written down for a long time since >it was transmitted in a tradition of teacher to disciple orally. I guess >this view is commonly accepted. > My thing with Smith is that he seems to suggest that the Vedas were non-textual until Max Muller translated them. "In the eighteenth century, European visitors to India found themselves wondering whether the Vedas really existed, since no one in India seemed ever to have seen or know a copy of these works and were told by Brahmin teachers, "Veda is whatever pertains to religion; veda is not books". In the nineteenth century, on the other hand, the West, in the heyday of its cultural imperialism, brought its different notion of scripture into India when the Oxford scholar Max Muller published a printed edition of the Rg-Veda, thus turning it for the first time into a book, both in theory and in fact." W. Cantwell Smith page 139. (Fortress Press, 1993) Jan Gonda, however, has suggested 600 BCE as an approximate date for the redaction of the Rg Veda. [Jan Gonda, (sorry no page reference with me).] Smith's assertion thus, seems odd to me. Any further comments? Benjamin Fleming >-----Original Message----- >From: Benjamin Fleming [SMTP:cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM] >Sent: Sunday, September 26, 1999 5:16 PM >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: defilements of the holy sounds - of the Vedas > >Dear list members, >I've been reading Cantwell Smith's the chapter called >"the Hindu Instance" >in it he suggests that "What the West calls "the" Veda [I think he refers >to the rg veda] was emphatically not written down." He further suggests >quoting C. Mackenzie Brown "The written images of an alphabet, far from >giving visual access to the sacred words of the Veda, were regarded as >defilements of the holy sounds" >can anyone confirm or contradict these assertions? >Thanks in advance >Benjamin Fleming > << File: ATT00000.html >> > From roheko at MERKUR.NET Wed Sep 29 10:50:31 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 11:50:31 +0100 Subject: Help with sources Message-ID: <161227052599.23782.17593524550909164126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> rAjAdhirAja Bhojadeva viracitA ZRNgAramaNjarIkathA Singhi Jain Series 30 Bombay 1959 Kenneth Zysk wrote: > I should appreciate help in locating the following sources: > > 1. Kandarpac-u.d-ama.ni of V-irabhadra. Any edition. > > 2. S'.rng-aramanjari of Saint Akbar Shah. Ed. by V. Raghavan > > 3. U.d.d-i.satantra. Any edition > > 4. Kriyo.d.d-i.satantra. Any edition. > > Sites in Europe would be or personal photocopies preferred. > > Many thanks, > > KG Zysk > > -- > Kenneth Zysk > Department of Asian Studies > University of Copenhagen > Leifsgade 33,5 Ph: +45 3532 8832; Fax: +45 3532 8835 > DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Email: zysk at coco.ihi.ku.dk From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Sep 29 19:46:22 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 15:46:22 -0400 Subject: Trikarmi brahmins? Message-ID: <161227052607.23782.15076419390761851886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav, Our new OPAC is quite powerful and allows searching on many more fields than our older system, so if you can tell me the pagination I might be able to get a title by searching on that. Allen Allen Thrasher Library of Congress From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 30 01:30:13 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 18:30:13 -0700 Subject: Aryabhatt (Elder) Message-ID: <161227052623.23782.684185848463442701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >This is an old chestnut. As I can recollect, what actually happned >was this: The Church had independently by the time of Galileo begun >cautiously to accept the Copernican view. The pope was consulted at >the time and it was decided that if Galileo included a mention of the >possible alternative/traditional view he would have had the blessing >of the Church. The pope wrote something for Galileo who in his >arrogance ridiculed the pope -- he labelled the person supposed to be >giving those views "simplicio" -- idiot, in modern parlance. This so >incensed the pope as a direct insult, permission to publish was >withdrawn and Galileo was ordered to "recant". The matter was >therefore less of a question doctrinal heresy than a clash of >personalities, typified by two arrrogant people who both thought they >were right. The issue is slightly more complicated than a clash of personalities. This may have been part of the problem, but not all. It is true that lectures based on Copernicus's original manuscript were given before Clement VII, who even approved of the work. However, opponents of a heliocentric system included not only Roman Catholics but also leaders of the Reformation. The shift in thinking required for accepting the new model was problematic for all Christians, not just for Roman Catholics. When Copernicus's work was finally published in Leipzig, the publisher added his own disclaimer, saying that the new system was only a convenient hypothesis that simplified computations. Between Clement VII in 1536 and Urban VIII in 1642, the Catholic church had gone through some tumultous times and had hardened its attitude towards many issues. It took a while for the ramifications of the new theory to sink in. The larger issue was that a belief in the Copernican system severely threatened both the undue reliance of Christian theology on Aristotle, and the old idea that the earth is the fixed center of the universe. And it remains true that it was only a few years ago that the Catholic church formally admitted that Galileo was right. I daresay that they had unofficially admitted it much earlier. After all, the Vatican funds and oversees a number of modern astronomical research projects in the USA. On a different scientific issue, note that the battle between creationism and evolution continues, mostly in the American "Bible belt." Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Thu Sep 30 00:36:08 1999 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 20:36:08 -0400 Subject: Aryabhatt (Elder) Message-ID: <161227052631.23782.70063523865213500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The geocentric theory was never official RC doctrine (i.e., dogma). It was just something (mistakenly) supported by the leadership of the RC Church at a certain time in history (in response to what that leadership -- again mistakenly -- perceived as a dire threat to the Catholic faith). I'm not sure that the RC Church has "caught up with science" even now, but its doctrine is not (and never has been) tied to any particular scientific cosmology. There is a distinction between what leaders in the Church say from time to time and what the official doctrine (dogma) of the Church is. The RC Church made its rapprochement with modern science long before its official reconsideration of the Galileo affair in the 1980s and 1990s. For example, Pierre Duhem -- the great theoretical physicist and philosopher and historian of science -- did his very modern work in science with the complete imprimatur of the Church, and he lived from 1861 to 1916. See his Aim and Structure of Physical Theory (1914). But that's enough from me. This is not an Indological subject. I just don't think that we should be unfair to the RC Church (or any other person or institution). But I have already taken this too far. My apologies. GC ----- Original Message ----- From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan To: Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Aryabhatt (Elder) > george9252 wrote: > > >Do you really mean that, Richard? You can't mean that the RC Church > >"adopted" Ptolemy's theory of epicycles as official RC doctrine. If it had, > >then, even today, the RC Church would insist that its adherents accept the > >Ptolemaic theory. It doesn't. > > The Ptolemaic theory was certainly upheld by the Roman Catholic church, > mainly because of its geocentric nature. Heliocentric theories were > associated with the pagan worship of the sun. That was the reason why > Galileo was arrested and asked to recant his "heresy" in championing the > Copernican theory. The church finally caught up with science only as late as > 1992, when it officially accepted that it was wrong for condemning Galileo. > Official Catholic doctrine is subject to change, but in its own sweet time. > > Vidyasankar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Wed Sep 29 21:03:45 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 22:03:45 +0100 Subject: NCC Message-ID: <161227052609.23782.10069460016579134000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From To Vielle Christophe 29-9-1999 Dear Friend, I was happy to see that my posting about NCC stimulated a new line of thinking -- an on-line catalogue of Sanskrit Mss. While I endorse your views on this subject, I must point out the confusion between 'a one-line' catalogue and 'an on-line' catalogue. As of today, my institute is miles away from Internet to think of anything 'on-line'. However, we will think of providing on-line material if an adequate support is coming to pull the Institute out of the past. KSA From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Sep 29 22:47:28 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 23:47:28 +0100 Subject: New Catalogus Catalogorum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052611.23782.11225813710099003483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Another reason the continutation of this tool (and it must be a > continuation, not just a 'completion,' because there will be new > catalogs produced indefinitely) is [...] You make good points. About this one, the only solution to the ever increasing data that should be added to NCC is to put it into a relational database. However, I don't think it is the moment to do that right now. Too ambitious. Also, in Madras they actually have thousands of slips already written out, waiting for editing and publication. So although a "total" solution -- web, computerized, etc. -- is something to look forward to in the longer term, I think it is important *now* to think about the simpler goal of pushing the printed NCC to completion. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Sep 29 22:53:37 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 23:53:37 +0100 Subject: Fate of NCC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052614.23782.13719838085385336867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Vielle Christophe wrote: > A first important thing should be the making of an updated Catalogus > Catalogorum sticto sensu, i.e. a sequel to Janert's annotated bibliography > (it seems that the project of his 2nd volume has been abandonned according > to what Harrassowitz wrote to me). Subhash Biswas's book of last year accomplishes this to a large extent (see Alan's email for bibl. details). > The NCC in its actual form could also be quickly concluded through the > publication of its unedited material, that is, I suppose, a lot of a paper > slips, by the simple photography of them, without "typographic" and real > "editorial" work except the respect of their alphabetical order. I believe you underestimate the editorial effort that goes into each entry in NCC. I've seen the slips, and the work that is done on them, and there is a great deal of thought, judgement, and knowledge of literature in the process of turning the raw catalogue-extract slips into NCC entries. I really don't think the raw slips would be seriously useable or useful. However, archival filming of them might prevent them dropping to pieces before they can be used. (The same applies to the Poona dictionary slips, even more so.) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 29 22:54:40 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 99 23:54:40 +0100 Subject: Aryabhatt (Elder) Message-ID: <161227052616.23782.4480324468923293283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> george9252 wrote: >Do you really mean that, Richard? You can't mean that the RC Church >"adopted" Ptolemy's theory of epicycles as official RC doctrine. If it had, >then, even today, the RC Church would insist that its adherents accept the >Ptolemaic theory. It doesn't. The Ptolemaic theory was certainly upheld by the Roman Catholic church, mainly because of its geocentric nature. Heliocentric theories were associated with the pagan worship of the sun. That was the reason why Galileo was arrested and asked to recant his "heresy" in championing the Copernican theory. The church finally caught up with science only as late as 1992, when it officially accepted that it was wrong for condemning Galileo. Official Catholic doctrine is subject to change, but in its own sweet time. Vidyasankar From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Sep 29 23:11:03 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 99 00:11:03 +0100 Subject: Fate of NCC In-Reply-To: <085725837201b99HAL9000@cwcom.net> Message-ID: <161227052618.23782.9721314669190883050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Arjunwadkar makes several imporant points. About the IGNCA: The staff at the IGNCA are typing the contents of many ms catalogues into a flat-file database (essentially a library catalogue system). When I visited IGNCA last year, I talked a lot about three issues. 1/ using a relational model for storing the data; 2/ Accuracy of data input; 3/ The importance of having a great deal of input from people who actually know a lot about Sanskrit literature. The data I saw, and I was kindly shown a great deal of printout as well as having sessions at the terminal, was voluminous indeed, but rather inaccurate, and inconsistent in names and titles. In other words, it did not reflect the careful editorial standards established for the NCC project by Raghavan, to which Prof. Arjunwadkar rightly refers. It is possible that the IGNCA data will be laundered in due course, but it will be a very big job to make it as useful as it deserves to be. I very much hope they do undertake it. So at present, I believe the NCC project is still worth completing, in spite of the somewhat similar thrust of the work at the IGNCA, and in spite of the fact that many catalogues have appeared since NCC closed its files. Has anyone been to IGNCA more recently, and had a look at the catalogue-input work (CATCAT etc.)? Prof. Arjunwadkar mentions UNESCO. The bit of that organization which would probably be relevant to the NCC is the "Memory of the World" project (http://www.unesco.org/webworld/mdm/en/index_mdm.html). This project is already working with the Institute of Asian Studies in Madras. However, although it is an excellent project, it is more of a publicity program than a financial one. As far as I know, the MOTW programme helps institutions to raise awareness, set standards for work, and so forth. But funds have to be gathered from other sources. Of course, having the UNESCO imprimature would help this fundraising enormously. However, another point is that most of the MOTW projects are concerned with orginal source documents. NCC is a finding aid, not an actual manuscript, of course. Still, perhaps an argument could be made. Is there another UNESCO program which might be relevant to NCC? Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Sep 29 23:41:48 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 99 00:41:48 +0100 Subject: Aryabhatt (Elder) Message-ID: <161227052621.23782.5028614047583695617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan To: Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 11:54 PM Subject: Re: Aryabhatt (Elder) > george9252 wrote: > > >Do you really mean that, Richard? You can't mean that the RC Church > >"adopted" Ptolemy's theory of epicycles as official RC doctrine. If it had, > >then, even today, the RC Church would insist that its adherents accept the > >Ptolemaic theory. It doesn't. > > The Ptolemaic theory was certainly upheld by the Roman Catholic church, > mainly because of its geocentric nature. Heliocentric theories were > associated with the pagan worship of the sun. That was the reason why > Galileo was arrested and asked to recant his "heresy" in championing the > Copernican theory. The church finally caught up with science only as late as > 1992, when it officially accepted that it was wrong for condemning Galileo. > Official Catholic doctrine is subject to change, but in its own sweet time. > > Vidyasankar This is an old chestnut. As I can recollect, what actually happned was this: The Church had independently by the time of Galileo begun cautiously to accept the Copernican view. The pope was consulted at the time and it was decided that if Galileo included a mention of the possible alternative/traditional view he would have had the blessing of the Church. The pope wrote something for Galileo who in his arrogance ridiculed the pope -- he labelled the person supposed to be giving those views "simplicio" -- idiot, in modern parlance. This so incensed the pope as a direct insult, permission to publish was withdrawn and Galileo was ordered to "recant". The matter was therefore less of a question doctrinal heresy than a clash of personalities, typified by two arrrogant people who both thought they were right. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ Thu Sep 30 09:29:12 1999 From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 99 09:29:12 +0000 Subject: Help with sources In-Reply-To: <37F1D009.F950F687@coco.ihi.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227052625.23782.13031359502259423591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I should appreciate help in locating the following sources: > 3. U.d.d-i.satantra. Any edition > 4. Kriyo.d.d-i.satantra. Any edition. > KG Zysk I have these books: 1. uDDIza tantram, abhinava hindI TIkA sahita, TIkAkAr: Candra Prakaz BarelI : saMskRti saMsthAn, 1995. 96 p. 2. kriyoDDIza LAlmaNi ZarmA kRta hindITIkAsameta Baladeva PrasAd Mizra dvArA saMzodhita BambaI : khemarAj ZrIkRSNadAs, 1995. 88 p. Contact me off the list if you are still interested. -- Lubomir Ondracka ============================================= Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies Charles University Namesti Jana Palacha 2 116 38 Prague 1 Czech Republic --------------------------------------------- e-mail: ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz --------------------------------------------- phone: 00420-2-21619356 ============================================= From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 30 17:59:28 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 99 10:59:28 -0700 Subject: Is there an alternate to the Bhagavadgita while being sworn in? Message-ID: <161227052639.23782.13741546073944896857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For Hindus, it is normally customary to swear ( in a legal or formal proceeding) on the BhagavadgItA. I would like to know a) Are there any alternatives to the BhG in the Hindu tradition? e.g. I have been told that in some parts of Tamil Nadu, the tirukuRaL substitutes for the gItA. In zrilaGkA or malaysia where you have Hindu populations, what is the popular book on which Hindus are sworn in? Likewise, I've been told that in Fiji, the ramcaritmAnas is used in place of the BhG... b) Was the BhagavadgItA used for being sworn in before the British legal system was adopted in India? According to trial in the traditional Hindu style, was there any provision for being sworn in? I would appreciate any information in this regard.. Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Sep 30 21:10:03 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 99 11:10:03 -1000 Subject: The Agastya Samhita In-Reply-To: <19990930195935.80293.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052646.23782.8802896362660080256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, 224141 at swedenmail.com wrote: > I read somewhere that the Agastya Samhita talks about "electricity and methods of making dry battery cells". > > Is it correct? > > If it is correct, what was the purpose of making "electricty and dry battery cells". To give us a shock. Regards, Raja. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Sep 30 17:16:24 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 99 13:16:24 -0400 Subject: Robert Darnton lecture, "Policing Literature in British India" Message-ID: <161227052636.23782.15117821237580942253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:31:46 -0400 From: Jonathan Rose Reply-To: "SHARP-L Society for the History of Authorship, Reading & Publishing" To: SHARP-L at LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Robert Darnton Lecture The Graduate Program in Book History at Drew University presents a public lecture: ROBERT DARNTON will speak on "Policing Literature in British India, 1857-1914" (Note change of topic) Monday, 11 October at 8:00 p.m. Learning Center 28 Drew University, Madison, NJ Prof. Darnton is President of the American Historical Association and Professor of History at Princeton University. He is the author of several ground-breaking historical studies, including "The Literary Underground of the Old Regime," "The Great Cat Massacre," and "The Forbidden Best-Sellers of Pre-Revolutionary France." This lecture is free and open to the general public. You can meet Prof. Darnton after the lecture at a reception hosted by the Friends of the Drew University Library. This event is funded by a grant from the Gladys Krieble Delmas Foundation. For more information about the Graduate Program in Book History at Drew University, contact gradm at drew.edu or http://www.drew.edu. [Other lists please copy.] From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Thu Sep 30 12:47:27 1999 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Vielle Christophe) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 99 14:47:27 +0200 Subject: NCC In-Reply-To: <0acfb1307211d99SKYNET@cwcom.net> Message-ID: <161227052629.23782.2038841455723778356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From >To Vielle Christophe > >29-9-1999 > >Dear Friend, >I was happy to see that my posting about NCC stimulated a new >line of thinking -- an on-line catalogue of Sanskrit Mss. While I >endorse your views on this subject, I must point out the confusion >between 'a one-line' catalogue and 'an on-line' catalogue. As of >today, my institute is miles away from Internet to think of anything >'on-line'. However, we will think of providing on-line material if an >adequate support is coming to pull the Institute out of the past. >KSA Shame on me. I am definitively discredited. But, anyway, now that my bad English orthography is made a bit better thanks to you, the idea of a "on-line" catalogue of catalogues should be examined. But in fact, what do you mean by "one-line"? the fact that each Mss. listed is standarly described on "one" line (as in many Indian catalogues)? Dr. Christophe Vielle Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud Institut orientaliste Place Blaise Pascal 1 B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve (Belgium) Tel. 32+10+47 49 54 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Sep 30 15:25:34 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 99 16:25:34 +0100 Subject: Indology Archive under Linguist Message-ID: <161227052633.23782.1064910861803896104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The LINGUIST group have pioneered a central repository for archiving all lists concerned with discussions about language. INDOLOGY has been included, and the Liverpool archive is now mirrored at the site below. -- DW ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:02:13 -0400 (EDT) From: aristar at linguistlist.org Subject: Indology Archive [...] The Indology mirror archive is now set up, at the URL: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/indology.html All the best Anthony ************************************** Anthony Aristar Associate Professor Moderator, LINGUIST aristar at linguistlist.org Linguistics Program a.aristar at wayne.edu College of Liberal Arts Dept. of English Wayne State University 51 W. Warren Detroit, MI 48202 URL: http://linguistlist.org/aristar/ ************************************** From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Thu Sep 30 12:17:59 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 99 17:47:59 +0530 Subject: Trikarmi brahmins? In-Reply-To: <199909282056.CAA27127@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227052627.23782.454669333349575657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav, Today I put your query about Trikarmi brahmins before two traditional colleagues at the Oriental Research Institute here in Mysore: one a Maadhva, one an Advaitin. While your description of what the Trikarmis are is a clear enough explanation of the term (only adhyayana, yajana and daana are permitted to them, and not the remaining other three, adhyaapana, yaajana and pratigraha, of the full set of brahmin .sa.tkarmas), neither of these two colleagues had ever come across the term "trikarmin braahma.na". In this respect, the "trikarmi brahmin" of course resembles a k.satriya or vai;sya, which must be the context in the text which you are reading. > Among such Trikarmi brahmins, the text mentions the > following names: > Koppalu (= Koppal in Karnataka?) > Caturvi.mzati > Sakalatrapuravaasin > Zi.syavarga The word "koppalu" is a Kannada noun meaning "small village", and it occurs as the final member in many placenames; but it seems that at least here in Karnataka there is no group of brahmins of that name. The three other names are also unknown here. The colleagues suspect that this concept of trikarmi brahmins is a recent one, and it resembles the distinction between "vaidika" and "laukika" brahmins, which is particularly current in northern Karnataka (i.e., next to Maharashtra, where your text seems to be from). This distinction too seems to be made only since recent times. Vaidikas have the right to all the .sa.tkarmas, while laukikas are limited to the same three as your trikarmis. However, this is a strictly individual distinction: within one and the same family, one member may be laukika, another vaidika. Similarly, the Gau.da Saarasvata brahmins in Karnataka are not exclusively laukika or vaidika (since they have their own guruma.thas: so not all of them can be laukika, as the Maharashtrian belief suggests). But the other Maadhvas in Karnataka consider the GSBs inferior (the common reason given being that they eat fish and therefore are not so brahminical as the others). I hope all this makes sense and helps. RZ From SE224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 30 19:55:04 1999 From: SE224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (224141@swedenmail.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 99 21:55:04 +0200 Subject: The Agastya Samhita Message-ID: <161227052641.23782.1205646494597776694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read somewhere that the Agastya Samhita talks about "electricity and methods of making dry battery cells". Is it correct? If it is correct, what was the purpose of making "electricty and dry battery cells". Is there any purpose or use of these battery cells discussed in the Agastya Samhita? Could anyone please enlighten me? Regards/Kailash Srivastava -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From SE224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 30 20:10:24 1999 From: SE224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (224141@swedenmail.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 99 22:10:24 +0200 Subject: Is there an alternate to the Bhagavadgita while being sworn in? Message-ID: <161227052643.23782.12179792107010571322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I saw a Hindi movie sometime ago wherein the witness, though a Hindu refused to depose in the name of God and BhagwatGita saying that he did not believe in it. He was directed to keep the right hand on his heart and depose on himself. Best regards Kailash Srivastava,PhD Bangatan 3D 72228 Vasteras(V?ster?s) Sweden Tel: +46-21-133803 (R)/+46-21-345034 (O) Voice: +1-760-280-6691 Fax: +1-630-604-3038 (R)/+46-21-137665 (O) ----- Original Message ----- From: S Krishna To: Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 7:59 PM Subject: Is there an alternate to the Bhagavadgita while being sworn in? > For Hindus, it is normally customary to swear ( in a legal or formal > proceeding) on the BhagavadgItA. I would like to know > > a) Are there any alternatives to the BhG in the Hindu tradition? e.g. > I have been told that in some parts of Tamil Nadu, the tirukuRaL substitutes > for the gItA. In zrilaGkA or malaysia where you have Hindu populations, what > is the popular book on which Hindus are sworn in? > Likewise, I've been told that in Fiji, the ramcaritmAnas is used in place of > the BhG... > > b) Was the BhagavadgItA used for being sworn in before the British legal > system was adopted in India? According to trial in the traditional Hindu > style, was there any provision for being sworn in? > > I would appreciate any information in this regard.. > > Regards, > Krishna > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Thu Sep 2 15:39:50 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 99 11:39:50 -0400 Subject: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) Message-ID: <161227051821.23782.14778619094065844531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan [mailto:Palaniappa at AOL.COM] > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 2:19 AM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Book Review: An Update on AIT (Part 1) > ............ > > In her book, Ramaswamy says that in the analysis of social science > scholarship preceding hers, > into sites of > such loyalty, reverence, and love. How indeed do they acquire > the capacity > which *enable* them to act as symbols or catalysts, or just > as crucially, > *disable* them from doing so?> p. 8 > > One would hope that she would provide a history of such a > loyalty towards > Tamil. But she also says, > > modernity, tamizppaRRu, > too is driven by the imperative to clothe itself in timeless antiquity, so > that devotion to Tamil appears to be as ancient as the language itself. Yet > Tamil devotion--in the sense in which I have identified it as networks of > praise, passion, and practice through which the language is > transformed into the primary site of attachment, love, and loyalty of its > speakers--is a more recent phenomenon > whose foundations were laid in the nineteenth century with There are signigificant number of references in CT itself to the the heritage named "Tamil" with reverence to it. >???From memory: paripAdal: " teri mAN tamiz mummait ten2n2am poruppan2 pari mA niraiyin2 parantu an2Ru vaiyai" teri = famous; mAn = glorious; mummai = triple; poruppu = the [potiyil] mountain -->"....the king of the [potiyil] mountains home to the well-known glorious triple Tamil..." There are innumerable refereces to the maturai city as the "city where Tamil grows" or "the city that nurtures tamil". The most powerful evidence against Ramasamy's assertion is the famous episode from a puRanAn2URu poem by the poet mOci kIran2Ar. The episode involves the tired poet sleeping on the bed reserved for the sacred "royal drum" which has been taken away for ritual bathing; the custom was to condemn any one who desecrates the bed to capital punishment. But when the king returns with the drum to return it to its bed, he find the poet fast asleep and instead of punishing the poet, he coddles the poet further by blowing the royal fan! When the poet wakes up startled, he sings... ".... atUum cAlum tamiz muzutu aRital ..." --->"....it is a very fitting tribute to pay, having a well-rounded knowledge of Tamil ..." an indisputable evidence that millenia ago Tamil was consciously used as a glorified label for the native heritage. The "political agenda" agenda of the epic cilappatikAram seems to be expressly to unite the fragmented Tamil society into one unified force against alien cultures and powers and there are passages in it from employing the word "Tamil" and "tamil nADu" from which this can be deduced. > Regards > S. Palaniappan > P.Chandrasekaran. From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Tue Sep 14 22:04:41 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 99 18:04:41 -0400 Subject: Tamil Heritage (was Aryan invasion debate) Message-ID: <161227052233.23782.8377845343135323270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: nanda chandran [mailto:vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 5:18 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Aryan invasion debate > > .......... >......... > > If you can point out a *substantial* literary corpus which > shows no Arya > connections and > points to an original individual identity of the Tamizh > people, it would be > more useful > for the discussion. George Hart "The Ancient Tamil Poems: their milieu and their Sanskrit counterparts": page 118-119: "...This shows how the indigenous customs spread to into Indo-Aryan culture: before a group was assimilated, Brhamins would come into it and adopt those values most admired by that group in order to gain respect. Thus the custom would have gained foothold in the Brahminic religion and would be perpetuated when descendants of the Brahmins wrote lawbooks or copied texts with appropriate insertions. Today, an ideal of chastity not too different from the early Tamil one pervades virtually all of India, being perceptibly stronger than it was in medieval India....[deleted] This trait of Hinduism, virtually universal today, spread from indigenous groups, chiefly from the Deccan culture of the Dravidians, and was embraced more and more by Aryan society....." So the very foundation of Valmiki Ramayanam itself, moral and epic, is Dravidian. > >..... > I just wish you'd more facts to support your claims, instead of mere > assertions. > > The feeling is mutual. :-)) Regards Chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Sep 17 20:49:59 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 99 16:49:59 -0400 Subject: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue Message-ID: <161227052350.23782.17996206509420121525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: N. Ganesan [mailto:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 4:00 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Continuing the review of Passions of the Tongue > > > >But it is a noun - the origin of which might be from > anywhere. That's why I > >asked Tamizh scholars to give evidence whether 'ha' is part > of the original > >Tamizh language not used as a noun. There are a bunch of Tamil verbs involving "Aytam" to satisfy your requirement: [H = Aytam which is aspirated ] veHku = to desire/ to covet eHku = to soften aHku = to shrink kaHRu = to darken Note that the sequence "Hku" is pronouced as "hu". See the first few chapters of tolkAppiyam on Tamil phonology for the rules on such sequences (H followed by stops). > > Puumpukaar is a Tamil word which is pronounced as Puumpuhaar. > Puumpukaar means the beautiful town where Kaveri enters the sea; > pukaar comes from the ta. verb, "puku" (to enter), which is spoken > as "puhu". > > [...] > >If you want to bolster your argument, it would be better > >to come up with proof that 'ha' was actually in use > >in ancient Tamizh. See the above list of words which are pretty much out of currency. pal + tuLi = paHRuLi pal + toDi = paHRoDi etc. > >.. > tamil "k" is in a noun or a verb does not matter > for pronouncing it. "k" will be spoken as k or g or h depending > on the position in a word. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan Regards Chandra