From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 1 03:14:43 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 99 20:14:43 -0700 Subject: Trikarmi brahmins? Message-ID: <161227052648.23782.15268379553696051765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos wrote: >The colleagues suspect that this concept of trikarmi brahmins is a >recent one, and it resembles the distinction between "vaidika" and >"laukika" brahmins, which is particularly current in northern Well, as far as the Saraswat Brahmins in the south are concerned, this issue is at least three-four centuries old. V. N. Kudva (History of the Dakshinatya Saraswats) and Frank Conlon (A Caste in a Changing World) give details of how various Smarta and Madhva Mathadhipatis were asked to ratify the Shatkarmi status of the Saraswats, between 1600 and 1700 CE. The issue does seem to have been more important in areas of Marathi influence than elsewhere. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Fri Oct 1 06:45:56 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 99 08:45:56 +0200 Subject: Is there an alternate to the Bhagavadgita while being sworn in? Message-ID: <161227052650.23782.13634199805518110830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The movie scene with a secular oath-taking conforms to a special provision in Indian law which is owed to Annie Besant, who successfully agitated for it in England, years before she came to India. It is in the same category as the civil wedding which the state provides in case a religious wedding (otherwise recognized as legally valid) is objected to, e.g. in cases of interreligious marriage. Needless to say, it is hardly part of Hindu "tradition". Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 1 19:42:27 1999 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 99 12:42:27 -0700 Subject: Syphilis Message-ID: <161227052655.23782.6607103189027586573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear scholars, especially of Ayurveda, I have just learned that the term "phiringAmaya" was used for syphilis, at least from the time of the BhAva-prakAsha (BhAva Mishra, 1550). >?From my dictionaries, I see that syphilis also has the names upadaMza and vRSaNa-kacchU, the first of which has come into Hindi and Bengali. Phiranga does not seem to have come into popular usage as a synonym for syphilis in the vernaculars. Can anyone shed a little light on the history of this association of syphilis with Europeans and perhaps the pre-European history of syphilis in India? Thanks for your help, Jan Brzezinski ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Fri Oct 1 12:50:01 1999 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 99 14:50:01 +0200 Subject: phone number request: Hindu University / Varanasi Message-ID: <161227052653.23782.8639772964904084805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, I was approached with a request for the phone-number of Hindu University in Varanasi (no further specifications), and, after having failed to locate it in the resources available to me, now have to pass this request on to the list. Help will, as always, be greatly appreciated, regards, -- Birgit Kellner Institut f. Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Universitaet Wien / Vienna University From RSabnavi at UMMG.COM Fri Oct 1 22:21:30 1999 From: RSabnavi at UMMG.COM (Ram Sabnavis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 99 16:21:30 -0600 Subject: Brahman origin myths Message-ID: <161227052656.23782.9526801549382631298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>> S Krishna 08/21/99 02:30PM >>> Prof DEshpande asks: Currently I am looking into origin myths about different Brahman communities. There are the famous stories in works like the Sahyaadrikha.n.da about the origins of the Chitpavan, Karhade, and Sarasvata Brahmins of Maharashtra and Goa. Are there any origin stories about the Brahman communities in Tamilnad, Andhra and Karnataka? Best, Madhav Deshpande>> W.r.t. Andhra Pradesh, there exists the following stories: 1. about the origin myth of a particular subsect, namely the "prathamazAkhI" of the niyogi brahmin sect: The story goes that that this community was cursed to turn into mlecchas at 12:00 in the afternoon for an hour after which they could turn back into Brahmins. Thus they traditinally left their homes at noon for an hour and went back only after cleansing themselves. The crude expression for members of this sect is "madhyAnamu mAla"( He who becomes an outcast in the afternoon). 2. There is a community of toddy tappers in Northern Coastal Andhra Pradesh whose origin is supposed to be partly Brahmin: A Brahmin allegedly agreed to marry his daughter to a member of the lower castes if he( the low caste bridegroom) could set water on fire. The ingenious bridegroom-to-be concocted a combination of spirits which looked like water but could catch fire. The women of this community traditionally didn't consume meat or fish in the evenings as a result of their Brahmin background. 3. The dominant sect among the Niyogis is called "AruvEla niyOgi" (6000 Niyogi Brahmins). This is because of a story about 6000 of them immigrating from Kanauj in the 10th/11th centuries. I am not sure if this is myth/history. Regards, Krishna _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From RSabnavi at UMMG.COM Fri Oct 1 22:22:34 1999 From: RSabnavi at UMMG.COM (Ram Sabnavis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 99 16:22:34 -0600 Subject: Brahman origin myths Message-ID: <161227052659.23782.297156593183639603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear krishna! How r u doing? Could you please elucidate on vyapari sect of brahmins? sairamprasad sabnavis >>> S Krishna 08/21/99 02:30PM >>> Prof DEshpande asks: Currently I am looking into origin myths about different Brahman communities. There are the famous stories in works like the Sahyaadrikha.n.da about the origins of the Chitpavan, Karhade, and Sarasvata Brahmins of Maharashtra and Goa. Are there any origin stories about the Brahman communities in Tamilnad, Andhra and Karnataka? Best, Madhav Deshpande>> W.r.t. Andhra Pradesh, there exists the following stories: 1. about the origin myth of a particular subsect, namely the "prathamazAkhI" of the niyogi brahmin sect: The story goes that that this community was cursed to turn into mlecchas at 12:00 in the afternoon for an hour after which they could turn back into Brahmins. Thus they traditinally left their homes at noon for an hour and went back only after cleansing themselves. The crude expression for members of this sect is "madhyAnamu mAla"( He who becomes an outcast in the afternoon). 2. There is a community of toddy tappers in Northern Coastal Andhra Pradesh whose origin is supposed to be partly Brahmin: A Brahmin allegedly agreed to marry his daughter to a member of the lower castes if he( the low caste bridegroom) could set water on fire. The ingenious bridegroom-to-be concocted a combination of spirits which looked like water but could catch fire. The women of this community traditionally didn't consume meat or fish in the evenings as a result of their Brahmin background. 3. The dominant sect among the Niyogis is called "AruvEla niyOgi" (6000 Niyogi Brahmins). This is because of a story about 6000 of them immigrating from Kanauj in the 10th/11th centuries. I am not sure if this is myth/history. Regards, Krishna _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From SE224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 2 05:59:06 1999 From: SE224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (Kailash Srivastava) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 99 07:59:06 +0200 Subject: phone number request: Hindu University / Varanasi Message-ID: <161227052661.23782.17370551220546308853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> BHU EXcgange nr. +91-542-310291. Kailash Srivastava ----- Original Message ----- From: birgit kellner To: Sent: Friday, October 01, 1999 2:50 PM Subject: phone number request: Hindu University / Varanasi > Dear list-members, > > I was approached with a request for the phone-number of Hindu University > in Varanasi (no further specifications), and, after having failed to > locate it in the resources available to me, now have to pass this > request on to the list. Help will, as always, be greatly appreciated, > > regards, > > -- > Birgit Kellner > Institut f. Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Institute for Tibetan and > Buddhist Studies > Universitaet Wien / Vienna University > From amala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sun Oct 3 21:52:17 1999 From: amala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Amala Bhakta) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 99 14:52:17 -0700 Subject: Narada Muni Message-ID: <161227052663.23782.4777601146122419553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To Whom This May Concern: > > I was referred to you by the publisher Motilal Banarsidas who said you > > would be able to furnish me with the information I need. > > > > In the Puranic Encyclopedia by Vettam Mani, p. 527, under the subject of > > Narada (ii) Son of Kalavati and Emperor Drumila. The reference book > > given for this insert is the Srimad Devi Bhagavatam, 7th Skanda. > > However, when I checked the reference, I could not find it there--nor > > anywhere else in that book (I have the English Translation by Swami > > Vidyananda). Nor could I find it the Bhagavat Purana. > > > > Obiously, the author made a mistake in listing as being it in the SDB. > > However, I need to know from WHERE this reference comes. I hope he did > > not concoct it. I need it for a book I am writing. > > > > I would be most obliged if you could inform me as to WHERE or in WHAT > > REFERENCE BOOK I can find the specific information I am looking for. I > > need to know the chapter and verse numbers. I have most of the Puranas > > as well as the Hari Vamsa and Mahbharata. > > > > Thank you in advance for your help. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Amal Bhakta Dasa > > Author From amala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Oct 4 04:28:45 1999 From: amala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Amala Bhakta) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 99 21:28:45 -0700 Subject: Narada Muni Message-ID: <161227052669.23782.15015121508961845431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > To Whom This May Concern: > > > > I was referred to you by the publisher Motilal Banarsidas who said you > > > would be able to furnish me with the information I need. > > > > > > In the Puranic Encyclopedia by Vettam Mani, p. 527, under the subject of > > > Narada (ii) Son of Kalavati and Emperor Drumila. The reference book > > > given for this insert is the Srimad Devi Bhagavatam, 7th Skanda. > > > However, when I checked the reference, I could not find it there--nor > > > anywhere else in that book (I have the English Translation by Swami > > > Vidyananda). Nor could I find it the Bhagavat Purana. > > > > > > Obiously, the author made a mistake in listing as being it in the SDB. > > > However, I need to know from WHERE this reference comes. I hope he did > > > not concoct it. I need it for a book I am writing. > > > > > > I would be most obliged if you could inform me as to WHERE or in WHAT > > > REFERENCE BOOK I can find the specific information I am looking for. I > > > need to know the chapter and verse numbers. I have most of the Puranas > > > as well as the Hari Vamsa and Mahbharata. > > > > > > Thank you in advance for your help. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Amal Bhakta Dasa > > > Author From Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO Sun Oct 3 23:16:05 1999 From: Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 00:16:05 +0100 Subject: XI INTERNATIONAL SANSKRIT CONFERANCE In-Reply-To: <37F0E93E.46B9961F@shore.net> Message-ID: <161227052665.23782.1572809764221532042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Enrica Garzilli! I have seveal times tried to submit my for paper to the XI Sanskrit Conferance. Unfortunately I am getting "error". Is there other alternative in order to submit? Sincerely Jon Skarpeid Ass. Professor From Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO Sun Oct 3 23:24:00 1999 From: Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 00:24:00 +0100 Subject: Please delete my last mail concerning XI Sanskrit Conferance Message-ID: <161227052667.23782.2112430444910760242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry! My last mail was ment for Dr Garzelli private. jon. From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Oct 4 16:23:34 1999 From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 09:23:34 -0700 Subject: World Skt. Conf -- web site Message-ID: <161227052675.23782.12609059613556525145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As far as I know the following is the current web site on the World Skt. Conf: http://utenti.tripod.it/CESMEO. Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley From garzilli at SHORE.NET Mon Oct 4 14:39:57 1999 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 10:39:57 -0400 Subject: XI INTERNATIONAL SANSKRIT CONFERANCE Message-ID: <161227052671.23782.5838175515146614649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Skarpeid, As I have written several times on various lists, the Asiatica Association is not responsible for the conference. The President asked us at the end of June to disable the page, so we did. My informal suggestion is: You should contact him (Prof. Oscar Botto) ASAP at the CESMEO address we provided on the page. Best wishes, Enrica -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** Jon Skarpeid wrote: > > Dear Dr. Enrica Garzilli! > > I have seveal times tried to submit my for paper to the XI Sanskrit > Conferance. Unfortunately I am getting "error". Is there other alternative > in order to submit? > > Sincerely > Jon Skarpeid > Ass. Professor From garzilli at SHORE.NET Mon Oct 4 14:41:46 1999 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 10:41:46 -0400 Subject: Please delete my last mail concerning XI Sanskrit Conferance Message-ID: <161227052673.23782.6390863795196470548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have just noticed that I had assumed it was private and I answered to the whole list. I am very sorry for that. Enrica Jon Skarpeid wrote: > > Sorry! > My last mail was ment for Dr Garzelli private. > > jon. -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From amala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Oct 4 19:58:42 1999 From: amala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Amala Bhakta) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 12:58:42 -0700 Subject: slander and peer pressure Message-ID: <161227052680.23782.1208226212708850226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please see the lengthy commentary written by A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami in in BHAGAVAD GITA AS IT IS in regard to the questions you pose. John Doe wrote: > > Dear Members, > > If you all will remember, in the second chapter of the Bhagavadgita Krishna > is encouraging Arjuna to act. > > In verses 34-36, Krishna states that if Arjuna does not fight/act, he will > basically be the victim of slander. > > By encouraging Arjuna in this manner, Krishna is, to use a modern > expression, implementing the tool of 'peer pressure.' > > I am wondering if you could say more about the role of honor, slander, and > 'peer pressure' within the Veda-s. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Mon Oct 4 20:21:02 1999 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 13:21:02 -0700 Subject: slander and peer pressure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052682.23782.14166733910371300768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This text is available online at: http://www.asitis.com/ Regards, ~sumedh Amala Bhakta writes: > Please see the lengthy commentary written by A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami in > in BHAGAVAD GITA AS IT IS in regard to the questions you pose. > John Doe wrote: >> >> Dear Members, >> >> If you all will remember, in the second chapter of the Bhagavadgita Krishna >> is encouraging Arjuna to act. >> >> In verses 34-36, Krishna states that if Arjuna does not fight/act, he will >> basically be the victim of slander. >> >> By encouraging Arjuna in this manner, Krishna is, to use a modern >> expression, implementing the tool of 'peer pressure.' >> >> I am wondering if you could say more about the role of honor, slander, and >> 'peer pressure' within the Veda-s. >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 4 23:46:25 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 16:46:25 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052684.23782.11008486060692343590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the delayed reply. I'd already exhausted my quota of posts for September and so couldn't reply in time. Somayaji Rajagopala writes : >Some examples are Kani(T) = Phalam(S)---- Moonru(T) =Treeni(S)---Treeni has >commonality with English Three---- >Aezhu(T) =Sapta(S)--- has commonality with Septa--- These are all very >common-day to day words-If they have any commonalities- even remotely- >,please enlighten me. From literary Tamil more than 10,000 words can be >cited. Even the common fruit vendor uses only "phalam" for fruit. And since word by word comparisons between languages is beyond my capabilities, I cannot in anyway contest this claim. >If an ethnic group has evolved a sophisticated means of >communication (language/letters/vocabulary/grammar/vast >literature covering a wide spectrum)quite independent of >another equally Elitist language over the same period of >time-the former ethnic group should have the backing of >a culture as old as that of the latter language?s >cultural milieu. It should be agreed that both are >independent cultural groups-developed a lot of >commonalties-over a period of time due to Historical >compulsions. Let's take the case of English. Today's English has a sophisticated grammer and incredible literature - in almost all areas. Five hundred years back this same language was a pretty crude tongue. But with knowledge acquired from other more advanced languages - Greek, Latin, Sanskrit - the language itself has been transformed into a pretty sophisticated one. Plus almost all works of importance in other languages have also been translated into English thus enriching the literature of the language. So let's suppose, there was a big war in which all the ancient Greek, Latin and other European literature were wiped out. And in another couple of hundred years, when nobody remembers the Greek or Roman civilization, the English suddenly claim that their civilization is 3000 years old! They would have the literature to prove that! But does this mean that the evolution of their civilization actually matches all the developments that is reflected in their literature? The BodhicaryAvatAra has been translated into English. So does that mean that the Brits strived to be Bodhisattvas? Every PTC bus in Madras used to carry a picture of Thiruvalluvar with a kural on the side - "Dravidian" pride. But how many Tamilians are vegetarians - which is the least one would expect of a follower of the way of life expounded by Thiruvalluvar. And the small percent of Tamils who're vegetarian seem more influenced by brAhmanism than by Valluvar. >Unity in Diversity. Politically correct, I suppose. But true? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From nayotse at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 4 17:54:16 1999 From: nayotse at HOTMAIL.COM (John Doe) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 17:54:16 +0000 Subject: slander and peer pressure Message-ID: <161227052678.23782.4887360994176146083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, If you all will remember, in the second chapter of the Bhagavadgita Krishna is encouraging Arjuna to act. In verses 34-36, Krishna states that if Arjuna does not fight/act, he will basically be the victim of slander. By encouraging Arjuna in this manner, Krishna is, to use a modern expression, implementing the tool of 'peer pressure.' I am wondering if you could say more about the role of honor, slander, and 'peer pressure' within the Veda-s. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 5 13:31:01 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 99 06:31:01 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052689.23782.4976791178560329413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Even the common fruit vendor uses only "phalam" for fruit. > And since word by word comparisons between languages is > beyond my capabilities, I cannot in anyway contest this claim. Skt. 'phalam', used extensively, has origins in Tamil/Dravidian. phalam < ta. 'pazam' (fruit, ripe fruit, very aged person) is formed from the tamil verb, 'pazu'. Cologne Online Tamil Lexicon: pazu-ttal pazu-ttal 01 1. to ripen, grow ripe, as fruits, grain; 2. to grow mature, arrive at perfection, as in knowledge, science, piety; 3. to become old; 4. to become fit, as for salvation; 5. to be trained; to become experienced; 6. to suppurate, come to a head, as a boil; 7. to melt, as heart; 8. to change colour by age, as ivory, horn, grain; to become pale or yellowish, as the body by disease; to be discoloured, as the teeth; 9. to become successful; 10. to prosper; 11. to abound; 12. to become flabby and weak, as the abdomen of a woman after child-birth for want of stimulants; 13. to take a fine, brilliant colour, as gold, red-hot iron; 14. to become flexible, pliant Persons with deep understanding of both Tamil and Dravidian are indeed rare. Sanskritists work from dictionaries like DED, but when their knowledge of Tamil texts is solid, lot more sanskrit words can be shown to be tamil/dravidian etymologically. Best, SM ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Tue Oct 5 06:29:52 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 99 07:29:52 +0100 Subject: slander and peer pressure In-Reply-To: <19991004175416.21958.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052686.23782.13220141962979685108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:54:16 GMT Send reply to: Indology From: John Doe Subject: slander and peer pressure To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Dear Members, > > If you all will remember, in the second chapter of the Bhagavadgita Krishna > is encouraging Arjuna to act. > > In verses 34-36, Krishna states that if Arjuna does not fight/act, he will > basically be the victim of slander. > > By encouraging Arjuna in this manner, Krishna is, to use a modern > expression, implementing the tool of 'peer pressure.' I have discussed the multiple approach of Krishna to the problem of Arjuna in my recent article on the Bhagavad-giitaa (second of a series being published in successive issues) in the magazine, 'Yoga and Health', October 1999, published from UK. It touches, among other things, the point you have raised. If you are serious, you may have a look into the first article too which discusses the nature of and appropriate approach to the text. > > I am wondering if you could say more about the role of honor, slander, and > 'peer pressure' within the Veda-s. > > I was amused to find you apparently think that the Vedic literature includes the Bhagavad-giitaa. The Bhagavad-giitaa is part of the archaic epic Mahaa-bhaarata by Vyaasa (Bhiishma-parvan, i.e. the 6th book, Adhyaayas 25-42). Incidentally, what do you think is the extent of the Vedic literature? Best wishes. KSA 4-10-1999 > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From amala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Tue Oct 5 17:34:51 1999 From: amala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Amala Bhakta) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 99 10:34:51 -0700 Subject: slander and peer pressure Message-ID: <161227052691.23782.9397388655539762215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> K S Arjunwadkar wrote: > > Date sent: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:54:16 GMT > Send reply to: Indology > From: John Doe > Subject: slander and peer pressure > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > > Dear Members, > > > > If you all will remember, in the second chapter of the Bhagavadgita Krishna > > is encouraging Arjuna to act. > > > > In verses 34-36, Krishna states that if Arjuna does not fight/act, he will > > basically be the victim of slander. > > > > By encouraging Arjuna in this manner, Krishna is, to use a modern > > expression, implementing the tool of 'peer pressure.' > > I have discussed the multiple approach of Krishna to the problem of > Arjuna in my recent article on the Bhagavad-giitaa (second of a > series being published in successive issues) in the magazine, > 'Yoga and Health', October 1999, published from UK. It touches, > among other things, the point you have raised. If you are serious, > you may have a look into the first article too which discusses the > nature of and appropriate approach to the text. > > > > I am wondering if you could say more about the role of honor, slander, and > > 'peer pressure' within the Veda-s. > > > > > I was amused to find you apparently think that the Vedic literature > includes the Bhagavad-giitaa. The Bhagavad-giitaa is part of the > archaic epic Mahaa-bhaarata by Vyaasa (Bhiishma-parvan, i.e. the > 6th book, Adhyaayas 25-42). Incidentally, what do you think is the > extent of the Vedic literature? > Best wishes. > KSA > 4-10-1999 Dear Amused KSA, Please accept my respects. According to the Bhagavat Purana, the Puranas and the ancient histories, which include the Mahabharata (in which Bhagavad-gita exists)are considered the fifth Veda. BP 3.12.39: "Then he [Brahma] created the fifth Veda-?the Puranas and the histories?-from all his mouths, since he could see all the past, present and future." Sincerely, AB From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 5 22:47:14 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 99 15:47:14 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052697.23782.291398508133889581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- > From: nanda chandran [mailto:vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 7:46 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Tamil Heritage > > > Sorry for the delayed reply. I'd already exhausted my quota of > posts for September and so couldn't reply in time. > ..... ... > > Even the common fruit vendor uses only "phalam" for fruit. > And since word by word comparisons between languages is > beyond my capabilities, I cannot in anyway contest this claim. :-)) You have repeatedly been doing so. You threw a challenge to cite Tamil *verbs* with specific phonemes and when shown a handful of them, you declare "I am not familiar with these words"! Please then do not *initiate* such discussions if you are not capable of doing the basic homework. This is a scholarly forum. > ........... > Let's take the case of English. Today's English has a > sophisticated grammer and incredible literature - in almost > all areas. Five hundred years back this same language > was a pretty crude tongue. But with knowledge acquired > from other more advanced languages - Greek, Latin, Sanskrit - > the language itself has been transformed into a pretty > sophisticated one. Plus almost all works of importance in > other languages have also been translated into English > thus enriching the literature of the language. > > So let's suppose, there was a big war in which all the > ancient Greek, Latin and other European literature were > wiped out. And in another couple of hundred years, when > nobody remembers the Greek or Roman civilization, the > English suddenly claim that their civilization is 3000 > years old! They would have the literature to prove that! Please substitute Sanskirt for English and proto-Dravidian/Tamil at IVC for Greek/Latin. Then that would explain how Skt. and Ino-Aryan heritage got where it is. Let us get that straight :-)) > ... > > Every PTC bus in Madras used to carry a picture of Thiruvalluvar > with a kural on the side - "Dravidian" pride. But how many > Tamilians are vegetarians - which is the least one would > expect of a follower of the way of life expounded by > Thiruvalluvar. And the small percent of Tamils who're > vegetarian seem more influenced by brAhmanism than > by Valluvar. The forum is still waiting for you references to chastity of brahmins in the most readily accessible book in the tamil land, viz. "thirukkuRaL". Can we continue any discussion on thirukkural after that, please? I have not seen a single philological evidence cited by you to support your claims in the dozens of posts in the previous month; you habitually fail to fulfill scholarly obligation on your side by citing any decent evidence but spawn a new thread of debate that presupposes the factuality of your (as yet open) assertions in preceding posts. It is very difficult indeed to engage in fruitful discussions with you. Regards, Chandra ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 5 23:45:24 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 99 16:45:24 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052699.23782.8857035549018625145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> P Chandrasekaran writes : >You have repeatedly been doing so. You threw a challenge to cite Tamil >*verbs* with specific phonemes and when shown a handful of them, you >declare "I am not familiar with these words"! Please then do not *initiate* >such discussions if you are not capable of doing the basic homework. This >is a scholarly forum. Though it's true that I admitted ignorance of *some* of the words, my last post pointed out that 'gha' is the actual use instead of "ha" - for which there was no reply. For example cloud is pronounced not as "me(ha)m" but "me(gha)m" ny non brahmins. And Ganesan came out with an ambiguous statement that based on the context and situation, "ga" is pronounced as "ha". So can you please verify from TolkAppiyam whether the alphabet "ha" actually finds mention? Even if it does find mention, then why is megham pronounced in three different ways - megham, meham, megam? >Please substitute Sanskirt for English and proto-Dravidian/Tamil at IVC for >Greek/Latin. Then that would explain how Skt. and Ino-Aryan heritage got >where it is. Let us get that straight :-)) But the problem is, while even brAhmanic life of today finds great parallels with Manusmriti, non-brAhmanic Tamil life doesn't with Thirukkural. >The forum is still waiting for you references to chastity of brahmins in >the most readily accessible book in the tamil land, viz. "thirukkuRaL". >Can we continue any discussion on thirukkural after that, please? Even in my original posting, I'd made the statement expressing my hesitation about its correctness. If I'd a copy of the kural with me, I'd verify the statement. Unfortunately I don't. And even if I'm wrong, I've no hesitation in admitting it. >I have not seen a single philological evidence cited by you to support your >claims in the dozens of posts in the previous month; you habitually fail to >fulfill scholarly obligation on your side by citing any decent evidence but >spawn a new thread of debate that presupposes the factuality of your (as >yet open) assertions in preceding posts. It is very difficult indeed to >engage in fruitful discussions with you. Why is it that all threads eventually end up in personal attacks? If you've any problems with my posts, please be specific and I'll try to answer you to the best of my ability. If not, I'll be the first one to admit my inability to do so. Please do not waste the time and resource of everybody/everything concerned, in personal attacks. And concerning S Mathuresan's point that Sanskrit "phalam" is derived from dravidian, can you please explain how such an assertion is made? Please tell us the method used to verify whether a word is derived from an external language? It can be noticed that most illiterate Tamils pronounce "pazham" as "palam". Infact very few non brAhmanic Tamils can even pronounce "zha". Why is this so? Was "palam" the original pronounciation? Then is "zha" derived from external sources? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Oct 5 21:26:07 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 99 17:26:07 -0400 Subject: Fate of NCC Message-ID: <161227052695.23782.17110011631794196418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM wrote: Is this an etymological dictionary? If so, I would like to know if any Munda or Dravidian language specialists are involved in the project. I am interested especially in any information about any Tamil scholars (not Tamil Sanskritists) involved in the project. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From amuellerin at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 5 18:42:29 1999 From: amuellerin at HOTMAIL.COM (Anna M=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=FCller?=) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 99 19:42:29 +0100 Subject: curses, enchantments and miracles Message-ID: <161227052692.23782.4269885095115513289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I intend to work about curses, enchantments and miracles in the Hindu and Muslim context in ancient India, particularly in the medieval times. In consideration of the extent of the literary sources, which can hardly be sifted through by myself I'd be grateful for any hint to texts, passages etc. dealing with the above mentioned subjects, no matter published in Sanskrit only. Thank you for any efforts. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Oct 6 00:31:04 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 99 01:31:04 +0100 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052700.23782.4607280925300228140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, all ! Being fairly new to this forum, I am not familiar with its conventions for rendering Sanskrit and Tamil sounds via email -- other lists I subscribe to use a different system. Having a recent though somewhat subsidiary interest in the relationship between Sanskrit, Dravidian and Munda languages, I would like to follow the threads better. Would some kind sould tell me what the "z/zh" transcription stands for, please. Also how would one go about learning Classical Tamil -- there seems to be a complete lack of suitable materials even in the SOAS (Univ of London) library which does not even have Andronov's book. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 6 14:42:36 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 99 07:42:36 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052710.23782.6178462995660264101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >And Ganesan came out with an ambiguous statement that based >on the context and situation, "ga" is pronounced as "ha". So >can you please verify from TolkAppiyam whether the alphabet >"ha" actually finds mention? Let me try one more time: Tolkaappiyar called Tamil letters (k, c, T, t, p R/.r) as "vallin2am" ('hard' consonants). In addition, "mellin2am" ('soft' consonants) are G, J, N(.n), n, m, n2 and "iTaiyin2am" ('middle' consonants) are y, r, l, v, z, L . These 18 'mey' letters are the only consonants in tamil. The 'hard' consonants vary in sound depending on their position in a word. Ie., their pronounciation is context-sensitive and intuitively followed. In explicit terms, with many examples, I illustrated the tamil sounds for 'vallin2am' on 6 March 1998 in INDOLOGY. Let us take the tamil letter 'k': a) Tamil letter 'k' is spoken out as 'k' only when 'k' occurs as the first letter or after another 'hard' consonant in a word. Elsewhere, 'k' is pronounced 'g' or 'h' based on a phonological rule. eg., kaNEcan, takkai (a small drum). b) Tamil letter 'k' is spoken out as 'g' when it occurs after a nasal. Eg., aGku (at that place) is pronounced "aGgu", "kaNkaL" (eyes) is pronounced "kaNgaL", "nAn2ku" (four) is pronounced "nAn2gu". c) Tamil letter 'k' is spoken out as a type of 'h' elsewhere. Eg., "pukaar" ( a town) is pronounced "puhaar", "puku" (to enter) is pronounced "puhu", etc., This is a general rule and can be tested in 1000s of tamil words with intervocalical "k" -> "h". Note that Mesopotamians called the Indus culture as Meluhha. One very important clue to identify the IVC language. Scholars have written articles that Meluhha is cognate with tamil "Melakam". Like Tamilakam in CT. Note that the intervocalical "k" in Melakam is transcribed/preserved as "h" in ancient times. Another instance: mahila/mahIla in sanskrit which is said to be a loan from dravidian. Compare mahila to tamil 'makaL' (daughter, woman). Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Wed Oct 6 08:10:50 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 99 09:10:50 +0100 Subject: slander and peer pressure In-Reply-To: <37FA36BB.78E92327@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <161227052707.23782.17714348017444101217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:34:51 -0700 Send reply to: Indology From: Amala Bhakta Subject: Re: slander and peer pressure To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > Dear Amused KSA, > > Please accept my respects. > > According to the Bhagavat Purana, the Puranas and the ancient histories, > which include the Mahabharata (in which Bhagavad-gita exists)are > considered the fifth Veda. > > BP 3.12.39: > > "Then he [Brahma] created the fifth Veda-?the Puranas and the > histories?-from all his mouths, since he could see all the past, present > and future." > > Sincerely, > > AB Reply Although my study of Sanskrit literature is based on a critical and historical approach, I have no quarrel with people whose outlook is faith-oriented. >???From a critical point of view, metaphorical reference to Mahabharata and similar works as the Fifth Veda is an indication of the respect accorded to them by Indian tradition. Ayurveda, Dhanurveda, Gandharvaveda are some more instances. The very expression 'Fifth Veda' testifies to the basic character of and traditional sanction to the Four Vedas. Hope this would satisfy you. KSA/6-10-1999 From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Wed Oct 6 08:10:50 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 99 09:10:50 +0100 Subject: curses, enchantments and miracles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052705.23782.15321444869307514931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:42:29 +0100 Send reply to: Indology From: Anna M=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=FCller?= Subject: curses, enchantments and miracles To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > I intend to work about curses, enchantments and miracles in the Hindu and > Muslim context in ancient India, particularly in the medieval times. In > consideration of the extent of the literary sources, which can hardly be > sifted through by myself I'd be grateful for any hint to texts, passages > etc. dealing with the above mentioned subjects, no matter published in > Sanskrit only. Thank you for any efforts. Reply The history of your subject goes as far back as the Atharva-veda, for which you may consult works on the history of Sanskrit/Vedic literature by Winternitz and others. I know a collative work on the subject (curses and boons in the Raamaayana) in Marathi by Prof. Bhiday, also translated into Kannada. For copies of such books you may contact a bookseller in Pune. (For example, International Book Service, Pune 411 004, India.) There is no possibility of the existence of a work in Sanskrit focussed on the academic aspect of the subject. KSA/6-10-1999 From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Wed Oct 6 08:10:50 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 99 09:10:50 +0100 Subject: Fate of NCC In-Reply-To: <689e9e2c.252bc6ef@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227052702.23782.9234144938847894759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:26:07 EDT Send reply to: Indology From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan Subject: Re: Fate of NCC To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM wrote: > > Principles sponsored by the Deccan College, Pune is facing a similar fate > despite the > foundational work of collecting references from Sanskrit works to the tune of > a crore (ten million).> > > Is this an etymological dictionary? If so, I would like to know if any Munda > or Dravidian language specialists are involved in the project. I am > interested especially in any information about any Tamil scholars (not Tamil > Sanskritists) involved in the project. Thanks in advance. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan Reply As far as I know, this project has no plan in its etymological aspact to go beyond Sanskrit into the early history of its words in relation to other linguistic stocks in India, as it is not yet established conclusively. Of course, there were (and still may be) Tamil scholars on the staff of the project, but they were all Sanskritists. KSA/6-10-1999 From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Wed Oct 6 19:37:34 1999 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Rasik Vihari Joshi) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 99 14:37:34 -0500 Subject: curses, enchantments and miracles Message-ID: <161227052712.23782.9024426824502258870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reply In the tradition of Nimbaarka sampradaaya several miracles are recorded.A sanskrit work entitled " Nimbaarka-vikraanti" published fromVrindavan with Hindi translation gives such miracles.Strotra-ratnakara of the same tradition speaks of the miracles peformed by KeSava KaaSmiirii Bhatta.Miracles of ParaSuraama Deva are in the ParaSuraama VaaNi (in four volumes in VrajabhaaZa).You may also throw a glance on my Sanskrit Mahaakaavya "Raamaprataaapa-caritam" in two volumes with Hindi and English translation (l998),Chaukhambha Sanskrit Pratisthan,38,U:A:Bunglao Road,Jawaharnagar Delhi-110007.Rampratap was a great Pandit of the thentwieth century and was a saint.His miracles are given in this Mahakavya. Rasik Vihari Joshi At 07:42 PM 5/10/99 +0100, you wrote: >I intend to work about curses, enchantments and miracles in the Hindu and >Muslim context in ancient India, particularly in the medieval times. In >consideration of the extent of the literary sources, which can hardly be >sifted through by myself I'd be grateful for any hint to texts, passages >etc. dealing with the above mentioned subjects, no matter published in >Sanskrit only. Thank you for any efforts. > From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Oct 6 21:44:05 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 99 17:44:05 -0400 Subject: Better manuscript libraries in Bangladesh? Message-ID: <161227052714.23782.15691508249440817005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone suggest the best library in Bangladesh that someone wanting to donate a Bangla palm leaf manuscript with the intent it be preserved and made available to scholars might approach? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From rmanring at INDIANA.EDU Wed Oct 6 23:41:55 1999 From: rmanring at INDIANA.EDU (Rebecca Manring) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 99 18:41:55 -0500 Subject: Better manuscript libraries in Bangladesh? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052716.23782.8857793126389974306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes: Dhaka University. This person might go through Professor Anisuzzaman inthe Bengali Dept, or directly to the manuscript division of the library. Rebecca Manring India Studies Indiana University On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Can anyone suggest the best library in Bangladesh that someone wanting > to donate a Bangla palm leaf manuscript with the intent it be > preserved and made available to scholars might approach? > > Allen > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Southern Asia Section > Asian Division > Library of Congress > LJ-150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > U.S.A. > tel. 202-707-3732 > fax 202-707-1724 > email: athr at loc.gov > > The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the > Library of Congress. > Rebecca Manring India Studies Indiana University From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 7 08:57:32 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 09:57:32 +0100 Subject: slander and peer pressure In-Reply-To: <19991004175416.21958.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052718.23782.1554640420028953164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not happy that you are signed on to INDOLOGY under what appears to be a false name. I am cancelling your membership. Please contact me with an explanation for your decision to subscribe in this way if you wish to participate in INDOLOGY again. DW -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 7 08:57:40 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 09:57:40 +0100 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227052720.23782.3619930564057284783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk The Wellcome Library, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 The Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, UK. URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/library From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 7 18:09:28 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 11:09:28 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052727.23782.11834651901154536187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the explanation. But I would like to point out something. >Let me try one more time: Tolkaappiyar called Tamil >letters (k, c, T, t, p R/.r) as "vallin2am" ('hard' consonants). >In addition, "mellin2am" ('soft' consonants) are G, J, N(.n), n, m, n2 >and "iTaiyin2am" ('middle' consonants) are y, r, l, v, z, L . >These 18 'mey' letters are the only consonants in tamil. Yes, I'm familiar with vallinam, mellinam and idaiyinam. But even as you say they are the only consonants in Tamil. >The 'hard' consonants vary in sound depending on their position >in a word. Ie., their pronounciation is context-sensitive and >intuitively followed. In explicit terms, with many examples, >I illustrated the tamil sounds for 'vallin2am' on 6 March 1998 in >INDOLOGY. >Let us take the tamil letter 'k': >a) Tamil letter 'k' is spoken out as 'k' only when 'k' occurs >as the first letter or after another 'hard' consonant in a word. >Elsewhere, 'k' is pronounced 'g' or 'h' based on a phonological rule. >eg., kaNEcan, takkai (a small drum). >b) Tamil letter 'k' is spoken out as 'g' when it occurs >after a nasal. >Eg., aGku (at that place) is pronounced "aGgu", >"kaNkaL" (eyes) is pronounced "kaNgaL", >"nAn2ku" (four) is pronounced "nAn2gu". >c) Tamil letter 'k' is spoken out as a type of 'h' elsewhere. >Eg., "pukaar" ( a town) is pronounced "puhaar", >"puku" (to enter) is pronounced "puhu", etc., >This is a general rule and can be tested in 1000s >of tamil words with intervocalical "k" -> "h". As you say nAngu (four) though spelt as nAnku, is pronounced with the "gha - ghu". Note that there's no alphabet in Tamizh for "gha - ghu". In nAngu, the "ku" - ka + u, is used for spelling. Also note that though the "ka" has similarity with "gha" in terms of sound, "ka" has no such similarity with "ha". Again the "ha" has an explicit alphabet in Tamizh unlike "gha" (the "u" is clubbed with "Ra" to give the "ha"). And meham (cloud) and puhAr is also pronounced as megham and pughAr. So the question is whether TolkApiyam actually puts down specifically what you say - that "ka" can be according to the context pronounced as "ha". Then if so, it would have to use the "ha" alphabet to specify so. Does it? But then, what would be the point in doing so, when the alphabet "ha" already exists? It could have used the "ha" in meham, instead of saying that the spelling is "mekam" but the pronounciation is "meham". This was my question all along, but I guess I wasn't really clear - is the TolkAppiyam aware of the alphabet "ha"? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 7 18:40:40 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 11:40:40 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052729.23782.3967141975036852052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan: >>Let me try one more time: Tolkaappiyar called Tamil >>letters (k, c, T, t, p, R/.r) as "vallin2am" ('hard' consonants). >>In addition, "mellin2am" ('soft' consonants) are G, J, N(.n), n, >>m, n2 and "iTaiyin2am" ('middle' consonants) are y, r, l, v, z, L . >>These 18 'mey' letters are the only consonants in tamil. Nanda Chandran: >Yes, I'm familiar with vallinam, mellinam and idaiyinam. >But even as you say they are the only consonants in Tamil. [...] >- is the TolkAppiyam aware of the alphabet "ha"? Tamil grammar books does not have letters like ha or ga or gha. The "ha" letter you are writing about is the grantha letter used to write Sanskrit in Tamil Nadu. Tamil letter, "k" is pronounced as k or g or h depending on its position in a word. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 7 19:35:22 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 12:35:22 -0700 Subject: puLLi, a "negative" letter Message-ID: <161227052731.23782.5581255724673825059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In the thread under Tamil Heritage, Nanda Chandran writes: >>[...] "the "ku" - ka + u, is used for spelling".. In Tamil, "ku" is *not* "ka + u". Actually, ku = k + u . In Tamil orthography, an important symbol is in use and TolkAppiyam has several sUtra (ta. "nURpA") for it. It is called "puLLi" (dot). The role of 'puLLi' (dot) over the 18 tamil letters (ka, Ga, ca, Ja, Ta, Na, ta, na, pa, ma, ya, ra, la, va, za, La, Ra, n2a) is to subtract the inherant "a" from them giving rise to pure consonants ('mey'/body) k, G, c, J .. Mathematically, ka - a = k And, a "puLLi" plays the role of "-a" (subtracting "a" out). Ie., "puLLi" = -a We often hear that Indians invented "zero" and the mahayana concept of shunyavAda. The use of the concept of the "negative letter" (puLLi) to subtract out "a"s in Tamil orthography for 2000 years makes me pose a question: When did Indians start using symbols for subtraction? And, zero? Once they knew the difference between + and - signs, zero falls in place. Regards, N. Ganesan PS: The 'puLLi' is the important historically to distinguish between kumArashambhava/kumArshambhav, bhagavAn/bhagvAn, ... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 7 13:38:33 1999 From: se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (. .) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 13:38:33 +0000 Subject: What is "Rasakumbha"? Message-ID: <161227052722.23782.6947413003932142784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the meaning of "Rasakumbha"? Thanx/Kailash Srivastava ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 7 21:12:18 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 14:12:18 -0700 Subject: puLLi, a "negative" letter Message-ID: <161227052733.23782.11822822648359460127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > We often hear that Indians invented "zero" and the > mahayana concept of > shunyavAda. The use of the concept of the "negative > letter" (puLLi) > to subtract out "a"s in Tamil orthography for 2000 > years makes > me pose a question: > It is however clear that Tamil Brahmi itself did not use the "puLLi". In fact this has been used incidentally to draw some conclusions re dates for some layers of the Tolkappiam. Refer, for example, Falk ("Schrift in alten Indien"). LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 7 21:43:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 14:43:19 -0700 Subject: puLLi, a "negative" letter Message-ID: <161227052735.23782.5100407137654410554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It is however clear that Tamil Brahmi itself did not >use the "puLLi". In fact this has been used >incidentally to draw some conclusions re dates for >some layers of the Tolkappiam. Refer, for example, >Falk ("Schrift in alten Indien"). Even today, the North Indian scripts/grammars lack the concept of "puLLi". Hence, when Brahmi script enters the Tamil lands, possibly it might have taken 2-3 centuries for the Brahmi script to incorporate "puLLi", a bright and indigenous native grammatical concept. The Jain monks around Madurai wrote about a Tamil sangam around 200 B.C under the patronage of Pandyas (dated by I. Mahadevan). While the occurence of puLLi in Tamil inscriptions may give the latest possible date for those tolkAppiyam sUtras, there is nothing in Tamil inscriptions that prohibits Tol. to be much older. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 7 22:51:37 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 15:51:37 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052737.23782.14000483532416278257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganesan writes : > Tamil grammar books does not have letters like > ha or ga or gha. The "ha" letter you are writing about is the > grantha letter used to write Sanskrit in Tamil Nadu. > Tamil letter, "k" is pronounced as k or g or h depending > on its position in a word. So since Tamil grammer has no alphabet for "ha", there's no way any Tamil grammer book would have been able to state what you claim, for the simple fact that they could not express the "ha" in writing. How does a language develop? How is its grammer structured? Obviously, the base is the use - the way it's used by the people, the way the words are pronounced. So if as per the recent posts, there exists so many words which are pronounced with a "ha", how can early Tamil grammarians have failed to create a Tamil alphabet for "ha"? Would they have left it in an ambiguous way as explained by Ganesan - that as per the context "ka" should be spelt as "ha", which bears no relation to it by sound - if that's the rule then "ka" can be pronounced as "la", "ma" or anything whatsoever. There would be no logic to it. This hardly points to systematic thought, which cannot be unfairly attributed to TolkAppiyam. Unless ofcourse, the "ha" was never a part of Tamil vocabulary and was derived from Samskrutam. This has the support of the fact "ha" is hardly used by lower caste Tamils who substitute it with "ka" or "gha" when pronouncing words like "meham". And also that brAhmanas didn't recognize this ambiguous rule to use the alphabet "ka" for "ha" and went ahead and invented an alphabet for it.With the increase of brAhmanic and other Samskrutic presence in the Tamil area, new words would have found their way into the public vocabulary.Taking that line, "meham" would have been derived its Samskrutic counterpart. The brAhmanic circles who'd already invented the Tamil alphabet for "ha" would have used it, while the Tamils unaware of it would have spelt the word as "megam". But with the passage of time while the upper caste Tamils with their proximity to the brAhmanas would have picked up the "ha", the lower caste Tamils never did. >In Tamil, "ku" is *not* "ka + u". Actually, ku = k + u . My "ka" means only your "k" and not "kaa". ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 7 16:01:29 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 17:01:29 +0100 Subject: call for papers on ancient rhetorics (fwd) Message-ID: <161227052725.23782.16871141483963624833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See MIME attachment. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:30:37 -0400 From: carol lipson To: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: call for papers on ancient rhetorics Hello. The call for papers is for new articles, for a book entitled Rhetoric Before and Beyond the Greeks. Carol L. >I would be delighted for you to publicize your rhetoric meeting via >INDOLOGY. There is quite a lot in the Sanskritic Indic tradition about >formal debate, the structure of logical arguments, typologies of debate, >etc. Oddly enough, some of the earlierst writings on this subject are in >the medical literature, since early doctors seem to have been leaders in >the field of formal debate. > >Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 >Wellcome Institute for URL: > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ > the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk >Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk >London NW1 2BE, England. Carol Lipson, Associate Professor, Writing Program, Syracuse University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Fri Oct 8 07:37:35 1999 From: zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 99 09:37:35 +0200 Subject: Contact in Tanjore Message-ID: <161227052739.23782.6702392271934064085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am trying to obtain copies of Sanskrit manuscripts from the Tanjore Maharaja Serfoji's Sarasvati Mahal Library in Tanjore. I should therefore appreciate assistance in obtaining an address (incl. Email & FAX) and appropriate contact person at the library. Guidance in this matter is very much welcomed. Many thanks, Ken Zysk -- Kenneth Zysk Department of Asian Studies University of Copenhagen Leifsgade 33,5 Ph: +45 3532 8832; Fax: +45 3532 8835 DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Email: zysk at coco.ihi.ku.dk From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Oct 8 09:23:11 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 99 10:23:11 +0100 Subject: slander and peer pressure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052740.23782.10980465437738777593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems that "John Doe" at Hotmail was "M. Johson". NB this and the previous message below were addressed to "John Doe" and just CC'ed to the INDOLOGY list. DW On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I am not happy that you are signed on to INDOLOGY under what appears to be > a false name. I am cancelling your membership. Please contact me with an > explanation for your decision to subscribe in this way if you wish to > participate in INDOLOGY again. > > DW > > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list > -- -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Oct 8 10:01:46 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 99 11:01:46 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] Hotmail users In-Reply-To: <19991004175416.21958.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052742.23782.13707147047610213718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am increasingly unhappy about the subscribers coming to INDOLOGY via the Hotmail service. A disproportionate number of our problems with fake identities, over-zealous posting, and so forth, seem to end up being caused by Hotmail subscribers. Obviously I don't wish to vilify individual Hotmail users: for some people it is a valuable and perhaps essential service. I really don't know what action to take about this, if any. Perhaps the best I can do at present is to ask Hotmail (and Yahoo) users to give serious consideration to switching to a service provider whose clients are not quite so anonymous. Ideally, members' identities should be queryable using the "finger" command, although I know that this is not always possible, even in major universities. If you must use Hotmail, and Hotmail-alikes, please give your name and postal address in the footer of your email at least once a month. This posting is just to register an area of concern. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Oct 8 10:02:30 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 99 11:02:30 +0100 Subject: Contact in Tanjore In-Reply-To: <37FD9F3F.2EF2DB01@coco.ihi.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227052745.23782.6184146988967102964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The person to contact is Mr P Perumal, Chief Conservator, Thanjavur Maharaja Serfoji's Saraswati Mahal Library, Thanjavur 613 009, Tamil Nadu, India. The Thanjavur Collector, Mr T. Shanmuga Rajeswaran, is also Director of the TMSSML, but I think Mr Perumal is a better first contact. Mr Perumal has studied conservation in Japan and the UK, including visiting periods at the V & A and the Wellcome Library. He is well-acquainted with the international scene, and generally a Good Thing :-) Perumal's phone no. is +91 4362 51036 (res), +91 4362 34107 (office). Also at the TMSSML is Smt. Rajalakshmi, a Sanskrit Pandit, who is very nice and a good source of information on the Sanskrit collections. Also Mr Padmanabhan, Records Clerk, is kind and helpful. When I was there in April, email was just being talked about as Real Soon Now. They had a bunch of computers, but no connectivity. I'm afraid I have lost the fax number (if you get it, could you let me have it?). Best, Dominik On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Kenneth Zysk wrote: > I am trying to obtain copies of Sanskrit manuscripts from the Tanjore > Maharaja Serfoji's Sarasvati Mahal Library in Tanjore. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From Jerry.Losty at MAIL.BL.UK Fri Oct 8 10:06:04 1999 From: Jerry.Losty at MAIL.BL.UK (Jerry Losty) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 99 11:06:04 +0100 Subject: Job vacancy - OIOC, British Library, London Message-ID: <161227052749.23782.10680821204203277260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following post is now being advertised: A vacancy for a assistant Curator has arisen within the Prints, Drawings and Photographs Section of the Oriental and India Office Collections in the British Library, London. The Section holds large and important collections of paintings by Indian and other eastern artists; drawings and prints by western artists relating to South Asia and other areas of Asia; historic photographs; and oil paintings, sculpture, historic furniture and other relics of the East India Company. You will be a key player in a small team responsible for the management and exploitation of these collections, which are indispensible sources for research both on the arts of India itself and on the work of western artists in India and related areas of Asia. You will run the Print Room, a separate study area maintained for readers using these collections, and will head the Section's information and reference services, as well as contribute to the cataloguing and management of the collections. In addition, you will be expected to pursue your related research interests and to contribute to the publication and exhibition of the collections. You will already have a degree in some relevant aspect of Indian studies, and/or considerable and demonstrable research experience and knowledge of the arts of South Asia or of western artists working in the sub-continent. You should have the ability to run a small reading room and to use your specialist knowledge to deal with scholars and the public in a constructive and supportive manner. Knowledge of one or more Indian or other eastern languages would be an advantage, while familiarity with automated systems of cataloguing and storage information is also desirable. You will be based in the British Library's new building at 96 Euston Road, London. Starting salary on appointment will be on the assistant curatorial scale, depending on qualifications and experience. For further details and an application form, please telephone (+44) (0)171 412 7331; or e-mail: jeffrey.wotherspoon at bl.uk. The closing date for the receipt of applications is 26 October 1999. The British Library is an equal opportunity employer. ----------------------------- From: J P Losty Curator, Prints, Drawings and Photographs Oriental and India Office Collections The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB United Kingdom Tel: +44 171 412 7856 Fax: +44 171 412 7641 E-mail: jerry.losty at bl.uk From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Oct 8 10:09:37 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 99 11:09:37 +0100 Subject: Contact in Tanjore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052747.23782.4172910198957788556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Got the FAX for TMSSML: +91 4362 33568. -- On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > The person to contact is > > Mr P Perumal, > Chief Conservator, > Thanjavur Maharaja Serfoji's Saraswati Mahal Library, > Thanjavur 613 009, > Tamil Nadu, > India. > +91 4362 51036 (res), > +91 4362 34107 (office). -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 8 20:12:04 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 99 13:12:04 -0700 Subject: dvija, dvijaati, etc. Message-ID: <161227052754.23782.4451969088276275962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Refer the 2nd last mantra of the 19th book of the Atharvaveda (saunakiya) "stuta maya varada vedamata pavamani dvijanam...." The second line mentions the following blessings of the Vedamata: Ayu, praja, pashu etc. which relate to Non-Brahmins as well. Hope this helps Vishal Agarwal 15300-37th Avenue North, Apt. A103 Plymouth, MN 55446 USA ----Original Message Follows---- From: Tim Lubin Subject: dvija, dvijaati, etc. Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:52:12 EST5EDT I have been trying to figure out where the term dvija' / dvijAti first begins to appear referring definitely to *a member of any of the three upper varNas*, as distinguished from its use as a synonym for 'brahmin' or a label acknowledging the fact that one has undergone upanayana (but without clear reference to birth-status). By "early" I mean prior to the Manu Smrti, esp. the mantra-period-texts, brAhmaNa texts, lit. and the ritual sutras. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From LubinT at MADISON.ACAD.WLU.EDU Fri Oct 8 13:52:12 1999 From: LubinT at MADISON.ACAD.WLU.EDU (Tim Lubin) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 99 13:52:12 +0000 Subject: dvija, dvijaati, etc. Message-ID: <161227052752.23782.2042959515012111804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been trying to figure out where the term dvija' / dvijAti first begins to appear referring definitely to *a member of any of the three upper varNas*, as distinguished from its use as a synonym for 'brahmin' or a label acknowledging the fact that one has undergone upanayana (but without clear reference to birth-status). By "early" I mean prior to the Manu Smrti, esp. the mantra-period-texts, brAhmaNa texts, lit. and the ritual sutras. I have already checked the Petersburg dictionary and EWA, and have run searches using digital texts of the Dharma Sutras, etc. Thanks for any references to such passages (or to a crucial piece of scholarship on this that I might have overlooked). Tim ____________________________________ Timothy Lubin Assistant Professor Department of Religion Washington and Lee University Lexington, VA 24450 (540) 463-8146 (off.), 463-8055 (home), 463-8498 (fax) LUBIN.T at WLU.EDU Homepage: http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint/TLubin.html From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 8 21:39:51 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 99 14:39:51 -0700 Subject: dvija, dvijaati, etc. Message-ID: <161227052756.23782.8758732673523510950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pl. try G. M. Carstairs, The twice-born, 1967 > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Tim Lubin > Subject: dvija, dvijaati, etc. > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:52:12 EST5EDT > > I have been trying to figure out where the term dvija' / > dvijAti first begins to appear referring definitely to *a member > of any of the three upper varNas*, as distinguished from its use as a > synonym for 'brahmin' or a label acknowledging the fact that one has > undergone upanayana (but without clear reference to birth-status). > > By "early" I mean prior to the Manu Smrti, esp. the > mantra-period-texts, brAhmaNa texts, lit. and the ritual > sutras. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET Fri Oct 8 21:57:06 1999 From: sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET (S Stephen) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 99 21:57:06 +0000 Subject: FYI - Tamilnadu Telephone directory Message-ID: <161227052758.23782.16172663249817809353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Telephone directory for all the cities of Tamilnadu can be found at http://www.tamilnadu-telecom.com/ sujata From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Oct 9 04:52:55 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 99 00:52:55 -0400 Subject: Duration of kalA Message-ID: <161227052760.23782.2360018657115505782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I have some questions regarding the time unit kalai (Ta.)/kalA (Skt.). and vik alai (Ta.)/vikalA (Skt.). Tamil lexicon and MMW define these terms as given below. Tamil Lexicon gives the following ----------------------------------------------- kalai ...5. indian hour =1/60 of a 1/30 of a zodiacal sign; 6. a time measure; vikalai 1. the Indian hour of 24 minutes; 2. second of a degree=1/60 kalai MMW gives the following ----------------------------------------------- kalA ------- f. (etym. doubtful) a small part of anything , any single part or portion of a whole , esp. a sixteenth part RV. viii , 47 , 17 TS. ZBr. Mn. &c. ; a digit or one-sixteenth of the moon's diameter Hit. KathAs. ... ; a symbolical expression for the number sixteen Hcat.; ...a division of time (said to be 1/900 of a day or 1.6 minutes Mn. i , 64 Hariv. ; or 1/1800 of a day or 0.8 minutes Comm. on VP. ; or 2 minutes and 26 and 54/201 seconds Suzr. ; or 1 minute and 35 and 205/301 seconds , or 8 seconds BhavP.) ; the sixtieth part of one-thirtieth of a zodiacal sign , a minute of a degree sUryas.... vikalA - the 60th part of a kalA, the second of a degree, sUryas. Is the Indian hour (24 minutes) or nADikA or ghaTikA ever defined in Sanskrit texts as 1/60 of a 1/30 of a zodiacal sign? We know kalA is used to denote the phases of the moon as well. Why is there such a wide variation in the duration of kalA as defined by different texts? What is the currently accepted etymology, if any, for this word, kalA? (I am aware of Gonda's discussion in "Old Indian", p. 195.) Similar to nADi or ghaTi, has the term "kalaza' ever been used to describe an hour or a water-clock? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From tlk at MATH.KU.DK Sat Oct 9 13:51:23 1999 From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 99 15:51:23 +0200 Subject: Explanation needed for the word 'angula' Message-ID: <161227052762.23782.14985519317829455186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, Can anyone tell me whether the word 'angula', which is used for a measure of length in the Brahmanas and Sutras (and possibly also many other places), literally means 'finger'? I am curious as to whether this unit was intended as being the breadth of a finger. Any help would be appreciated. Sincerely, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Sun Oct 10 06:20:29 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 99 07:20:29 +0100 Subject: Explanation needed for the word 'angula' In-Reply-To: <199910091403.QAA13249@runningman.mobilixnet.dk> Message-ID: <161227052764.23782.1682445742630600853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Priority: normal Date sent: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 15:51:23 +0200 Send reply to: Indology From: Toke Lindegaard Knudsen Subject: Explanation needed for the word 'angula' To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Dear list-members, > > Can anyone tell me whether the word 'angula', which is used for a > measure of length in the Brahmanas and Sutras (and possibly also > many other places), literally means 'finger'? I am curious as to > whether this unit was intended as being the breadth of a finger. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Toke Lindegaard Knudsen Reply 'Breadth of a finger' -- yes. 24 fingers make a cubit. KSA From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Oct 10 12:13:28 1999 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr.RM.Krishnan) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 99 17:13:28 +0500 Subject: Explanation needed for the word 'angula' Message-ID: <161227052766.23782.801640108962716242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10/10/99 7:20:00 AM, you wrote: >Priority: normal >Date sent: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 15:51:23 +0200 >Send reply to: Indology >From: Toke Lindegaard Knudsen >Subject: Explanation needed for the word 'angula' >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >> Dear list-members, >> >> Can anyone tell me whether the word 'angula', which is used for a >> measure of length in the Brahmanas and Sutras (and possibly also >> many other places), literally means 'finger'? I am curious as to >> whether this unit was intended as being the breadth of a finger. >> >> Any help would be appreciated. >> >> Sincerely, >> Toke Lindegaard Knudsen > >Reply >'Breadth of a finger' -- yes. 24 fingers make a cubit. >KSA > > I know an equivalent system for measuring lengths in the Tamil tradition,viz., 8 aNu = 1 thErth thukaL 8 thErth thukaL = 1 panjizhai 8 panjizhai = 1 mayir 8 mayir = 1 nuNmaNal 8 nuNmaNal = 1 kaduku 8 kaduku = 1 nel 8 nel = 1 peruviral 12 peruviral = 1 chaN 2 chaN = 1 muzham 4 muzham = 1 kOl 200 kOl = 1 kUppIdu 4 kUppIdu = 1 kAtham The meanings are: aNu = atom, thErth thukaL = chariot dust, panjizhai = cotton filament, mayir = hair, nuNmaNal = fine sand, kaduku = mustard seed, nel = paddy, peruviral = thumb (this is called 'angula' in sanskrit), chaN = extreme distance between the thumb and the little finger, when an average person extends his fingers of a hand.(This is nearly around 8 inches in the modern British System.) muzham = distance between the tip of the middle finger to the elbow point of an average person, kOl = stick, kUppIdu = calling distance, kAtham = large distance unit. Hope the above will be useful. (My transliteration may not be alright; but it serves the point. 'zha' is the special stressed L in Tamil.) With regards, RM.Krishnan From tlk at MATH.KU.DK Sun Oct 10 18:30:25 1999 From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 99 20:30:25 +0200 Subject: Units used in the Sulbasutras Message-ID: <161227052769.23782.5379296701058513394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, I have here a list of units of length used in the Sulbasutras. Can anyone shed some light on the following question: how many of them are defined in relation to the human body? I now know that angula and pada are a thumbs breadth and the length of a foot respectively. Also a puruSa is the height of man standing upright with his arms stretched upwards. What about the rest? List follows: angula kSudrapada prAdeza pRthA uttarayuga pada ISA akSa yuga jAnu zamyA bAhu prakrama aratni puruSa vyAma vyAyAma aNUka Uvasthi vitasti Any help will be appreciated. Sincerely, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen -- From William.Smith at ORIENT.SU.SE Mon Oct 11 09:42:36 1999 From: William.Smith at ORIENT.SU.SE (William Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 99 11:42:36 +0200 Subject: Curses Message-ID: <161227052771.23782.10316320495696637161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I intend to work about curses, enchantments and miracles in the Hindu and Muslim context in ancient India, particularly in the medieval times. In consideration of the extent of the literary sources, which can hardly be sifted through by myself I'd be grateful for any hint to texts, passages etc. dealing with the above mentioned subjects, no matter published in Sanskrit only. Thank you for any efforts. The two following articles by me deal with the curse in Hindi literature. The notes will refer you to further material.South_Asia_Roman South_Asia_RomanExplaining the Inexplicable: Uses of the Curse in Rama Literature. E. Kahrs (ed.), Kaly?~amitr?r?ga~am: Essays in Honour of Nils Simonsson, Oslo 1986 Changing Bodies: The Mechanics of the Metamorphic Curse, Acta Orientalia 56, 1995. Times South_Asia_Roman W.L. Smith -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1050 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 11 20:40:56 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 99 13:40:56 -0700 Subject: Buddhism - conceptual doubts Message-ID: <161227052773.23782.485898398854841566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've some conceptual doubts on Buddhism and would be grateful for clarifications from Buddhist scholars on the list. Also, would anybody know how to subscribe to the list which discusses scholarly Buddhism - I think it is called BUDDHA-L. ---------------- The central doctrine of the MAdhyamaka or the middle way is that, both the positions - Self and not Self - represents extreme view points and that truth is in the middle (as told by Buddha in the KAshyapa Parivartha, Ratnakuta SUtram). All the brAhmanical schools stand by the Self as the reality in man. And it's explicitly asserted that the Self is neither the body nor the mind, but a supersensible Reality - spirit - and also characterized as knowledge, existence and bliss. And it's the essence of our "I" consciousness. Traditionally all the bauddha schools denied the Self - but considering that the SAkhyamuni didn't advocate prayer or worship, but taught discipline, ethics and meditation, which implies that Reality is inherent in man - all the bauddha schools tried to identify this Reality with something which was part of empirical life. NAgasena denies the Self, but doesn't seem too keen on relating nirvAna to anything else, so leaves off with an air of mystery about the ultimate Reality but with the implication that it is inherent in man. The VaibAshikas deny the Self and claim that the eternal atoms or dharmas, which underlie existence, is the Reality. Stcherbatsky claims that their nirvAna is a lifeless material state. I've some questions on this : For if Reality is only the atom, then how can a Buddha on attaining nirvAna know that he's attained nirvAna? So what's the state of consciousness on attaining nirvAna? Or is there a consciousness atom? I would be glad for some information regarding the VaibAshika view of the Buddha before and after his parinirvAna. The SautrAntikas deny reality to both the Self and atoms - so what's their Reality? Stcherbatsky claims that they thought there existed a subtle consciousness after nirvAna. (I would also appreciate any further information regarding the SautrAntika concept of nirvAna). The YogAcArins also deny the Self, but also deny the world as well. For them the only Reality is vijnAna or consciousness, which upon purification is nirvAna. Here it can be noted that all the schools - brAhmanical, sarvAstivAda as well as YogAcAra asserted that Reality was something inherent in the empirical world. That the world as a whole is not Real, but something in it - the essence - the underlying Reality - Atman or anu or vijnAna - is the Real. NAgArjuna's basic attack is towards this - that there can be no substance without attributes or attributes without substance. So the concept of an "essence" or "inherent existence" is logically untenable. Further, he and his disciples explicitly attack and refute all the rival concets of Reality - Atman, anu, vijnAna etc So what's his nirvAna? Contrary to the claims that the mAdhyamika has no positions - NAgArjuna in his MUlamAdhyamaka KArikA - asserts that there's no difference between samsAra and nirvAna and that the limit of samsAra is the limit of nirvAna - in short he seems to be equating nirvAna with samsAra itself! For all of other schools, Reality is ontologically different from the empirical world as a whole - either as spirit or atoms or consciousness. So considering NAgArjuna's refutation of the concept of essence (and also identifying Reality with Atman or anu or vijnAna) and his assertion that nirvAna is no different from samsAra, he's saying that Reality is not ontologically different from the world. So then what's Reality? NirvAna is samsAra free of conceptual activity. NAgArjuna's reality is more epistemological than ontological. When the mind wheel ceases, samsAra is nirvAna. But isn't this stance which denies the Self and also equates nirvAna with samsAra, in contradiction to the fundemantal doctrine of the middle way, which tries to take a middle position between the existence and the non-existence of the Atman or Self? One more thing that I've against the MAdhyamika is that - if nirvAna is but samsara devoid of conceptual activity - why wouldn't the Buddha himself said so? Clearly this is not a very difficult concept to understand. So I find it difficult to accept that something as simple as this, is the truth behind the TathAgatha's thundering silence! And this hardly relates favorably to the TathAgatha's dialogue with KAshyapa, where he says that nirvAna is something which cannot be predicated of anything in relation to the empirical world. In the Buddha's teachings itself there's no firm proof that he denied a supersensible mystical reality different from the empirical world. But all the bauddha schools (except NAgasena perhaps?) with their rationalistic ideals denied it and tried to equate it with something in relation to the empirical world itself. NAgArjuna though professesing to take the middle between these two positions, also seems to be doing the same (equating the Reality with something in realtion to the empirical world - in his case it's the empirical world itself devoid of thought), thus cutting off any scope for mysticism in Buddhism. Or is it so? Grateful for any clarifications. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From langstonrob at JUNO.COM Mon Oct 11 21:47:13 1999 From: langstonrob at JUNO.COM (robert langston) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 99 17:47:13 -0400 Subject: Curses Message-ID: <161227052775.23782.6037487637414741089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 William Smith writes: "I intend to work about curses, enchantments and miracles in the Hindu and Muslim context in ancient India, particularly in the medieval times......" Dear Dr. Smith, Carl Ernst, of University of N. Carolina, writes several interesting pieces dealing with the miraculous from the Muslim context in, "Religions of India in Practice", edited by Donald Lopez, 1995, Princeton University. .....On a possibly related note, I am putting together a high school level lesson plan on Satya Pir, the (Bengali) saint (Hindu, Muslim? Both?). I would appreciate any references, information, or commentaries regarding Muslim or Hindu perspectives on Satya Pir, or Satya Narayana. Thanks, Robert -------------------------------------- Robert Langston Chair, Visual Arts Morgan Park Academy 2153 W. 111th Street Chicago, IL 60643 Office (773) 881-2967 Home(773) 239-2250 langstonrob at juno.com From hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Tue Oct 12 06:37:31 1999 From: hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 99 23:37:31 -0700 Subject: Renowned Indologist Dr Hajime Nakamura dies Message-ID: <161227052779.23782.12448430571880495792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> =================================================== Monday, October 11, 1999 Renowned Indologist Dr Hajime Nakamura dies TOKYO: Renowned Indologist Dr Hajime Nakamura, an outstanding international authority on Indian philosophy, Sanskrit literature and Buddhism, has died, his family said. Prof Nakamura, 86, died yesterday because of kidney failure, the daily Shimbun said today. A memorial service will be held in his honour by Tokyo's Honganji Buddhist temple on November 6, reports PTI. Prof Nakamura, visited India several times to lecture as well as research. His vast field of study includes various schools of Indian philosophy, logic, as well as thoughts on Hinduism and Buddhism besides the relationship of religion with society and politics. "Early period Vedanta philosophies", published in Japanese, fetched the much awarded Dr Nakamura Japan's highest cultural decoration. His 32-volume magnum opus, "Decisive Issues: Collection of Hajime Nakamura" was also published in July this year. During his long academic career, Nakamura published a large number of books, treatises, articles and commentaries on Indian philosophies and thoughts. Dr Nakamura was made professor emeritus of the Tokyo University, his alma mater, after he retired in 1977. He founded the Toro Gakuin (oriental school) in Tokyo. =====Courtesy : Indian Express, India======== From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Oct 12 11:54:21 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 99 07:54:21 -0400 Subject: address? Message-ID: <161227052784.23782.12897408041192658928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would appreciate if anyone knows the email address for Dr. Jim Benson at Oxford, UK. Best, Madhav Deshpande From annapya.sjodin at AFRO.UU.SE Tue Oct 12 08:09:30 1999 From: annapya.sjodin at AFRO.UU.SE (=?utf-8?Q?Anna-Pya_Sj=C3=B6din?=) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 99 10:09:30 +0200 Subject: Buddhism - conceptual doubts Message-ID: <161227052782.23782.7242756483994054327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a very illuminating book on this subject below by J.F. Streng,"Emptiness- A Study in Religious Meaning". >NAgArjuna's basic attack is towards this - that there can be >no substance without attributes or attributes without substance. >So the concept of an "essence" or "inherent existence" is >logically untenable. Further, he and his disciples explicitly >attack and refute all the rival concets of Reality - Atman, anu, >vijnAna etc > >So what's his nirvAna? > >Contrary to the claims that the mAdhyamika has no positions - >NAgArjuna in his MUlamAdhyamaka KArikA - asserts that there's no >difference between samsAra and nirvAna and that the limit of >samsAra is the limit of nirvAna - in short he seems to be equating >nirvAna with samsAra itself! >For all of other schools, Reality is ontologically different from >the empirical world as a whole - either as spirit or atoms or >consciousness. > >So considering NAgArjuna's refutation of the concept of essence >(and also identifying Reality with Atman or anu or vijnAna) and his >assertion that nirvAna is no different from samsAra, he's saying >that Reality is not ontologically different from the world. > >So then what's Reality? NirvAna is samsAra free of conceptual >activity. NAgArjuna's reality is more epistemological than >ontological. When the mind wheel ceases, samsAra is nirvAna. One way to interpret Nagarjuna is to turn the mind, not to an ontological reality, but, to an attitude of the mind. With such a perspective one could say that he denies every notion of an absolute reality/ontology as a means to enlightenment. The concepts nirvana and samsara are alike in that they are mere concepts. They can be used, or utilized,in the teaching of buddhist disciples within the context of conventional truth but fall short in the context of ultimate truth which is not reached or attained by way of thinking but through the act of meditation -purifying ones mind. One could say that the world/reality remains the same but the mind apprehending the reality is utterly changed. In this sense the ultimate truth/nirvana is not a truth of something but rather a way of behaving in relation to the world, an attitude. > >But isn't this stance which denies the Self and also equates >nirvAna with samsAra, in contradiction to the fundemantal doctrine >of the middle way, which tries to take a middle position between >the existence and the non-existence of the Atman or Self? >One more thing that I've against the MAdhyamika is that - if >nirvAna is but samsara devoid of conceptual activity - why >wouldn't the Buddha himself said so? Clearly this is not a very >difficult concept to understand. So I find it difficult to >accept that something as simple as this, is the truth behind >the TathAgatha's thundering silence! And this hardly relates >favorably to the TathAgatha's dialogue with KAshyapa, where he >says that nirvAna is something which cannot be predicated of >anything in relation to the empirical world. There is of course a limit to language, it is fornulated within "the world" and cannot but guide the mind towards enlightenment. This might be the reason of "the silence". Furthermore I think Nagarjuna saw a need of reinforcing the old teaching in a new way because he apprehended many of the buddhists schools active at that time as straying to far away from the right path, saying too much about things about which one cannot say much. It is not an easy subject this and I fear that the above is more confusing than clarifying. So here are some more books (and an article): Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies, "Abhidharma Buddhism", Eds. Potter, Buswell, Jaini and Reat.(1996) Sprung, M. "Lucid Eposition of the Middle Way -The essential Chapters from the Prasannapada of Candrakirti"(1979) Huntington, C. W. "The System of the Two Truths in the Prasannapada and the Madhyamakavatara: A Study in Madhyamikan Soteriology" in Journal of Indian Philosophy, 11(1983)pp.77-106. with kind regards Anna-Pya Sjodin. From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Tue Oct 12 01:28:40 1999 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Mahoney, Richard B) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 99 14:28:40 +1300 Subject: Buddhism - Conceptual Doubts Message-ID: <161227052777.23782.5667580679693085257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Nanda Not being qualified to remove your doubts, I'm referring you to others who are: For a good overview of the central issues of Early MAdhyamika, cf. Huntington, C., "The Emptiness of Emptiness: An Introduction to Early Indian MAdhyamika", esp. Section 5, "The Emptiness of Emptiness: Philosophy as Propaganda", 105-42. For a useful approach to the whole business of Buddhist philosophical speculation, cf. Cabezon, J., "Buddhism and Language: A Study of Indo-Tibetan Scholasticism" (Albany: SUNY, 1994). For NAgArjuna's own attitude towards the beliefs of TIrthikas, ZrAvakas, YogAcArins and others, cf. his "BodhicittavivaraNa" in Lindtner, C., "Nagarjuniana: Studies in the Writings and Philosophy of NAgArjuna (Copenhagen: Akademisk Forlag, 1982). Note: Motilal Banarsidass have re-printed this. When considering the great variety of definitions and concepts suggested by an equally great variety of Buddhist scholars, it is perhaps worth keeping one thing in mind. It can be, and has been, argued that all these definitions and concepts derive their meaning only from being used by a particular group of people at a particular time. Hope these leads help. -- Regards Richard Mahoney From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU Tue Oct 12 20:50:46 1999 From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 99 15:50:46 -0500 Subject: Oriental Inst. Baroda (address request) In-Reply-To: <049aa5113200ca9SKYNET@cwcom.net> Message-ID: <161227052790.23782.11039907287213537529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If someone could supply me with the address of the Oriental Institute, Baroda, I would appreciate it. I am particularly interested in contacting Prof. V.M. Kulkarni, so if anyone has his address (email or postal) I would appreciate that as well. best, Tim Cahill From jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR Tue Oct 12 20:32:36 1999 From: jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR (J.S.Pitanga) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 99 17:32:36 -0300 Subject: Buddhism - conceptual doubts Message-ID: <161227052786.23782.8944669599842040283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I've some conceptual doubts on Buddhism and would be grateful for >clarifications from Buddhist scholars on the list. Since I am not a scholar, I am fully qualified not to deserve your gratitude. All my answers pretend to reflect the viewpoint of Tibetan Gelug scholarship and all quotations are from _Cutting Through Appearances_, Geshe Lhundup Sopa & Jeffrey Hopkins, Snow Lion Publications. The bracketed interpolated words are mine. My purpose in answering is to clarify the subject for myself. If my message is not welcome please delete it. If I insist, please remove me from the list. >The central doctrine of the MAdhyamaka or the middle way >is that, both the positions - Self and not Self - represents >extreme view points and that truth is in the middle (as told >by Buddha in the KAshyapa Parivartha, Ratnakuta SUtram Specifically, what Maadhyamaka denies are the extremes of existence beyond mere conceptual imputation (or of inherent existence) and of utter non-existence. Thus, the middle path propounded by the Kaas'yapaparivartha is the merely imputed, nominal existence, of persons and other phenomena. >The VaibAshikas deny the Self The negated self here is just a permanent, independent, and indivisible person (according to the Sa.mmitya subschools) and also a substantially existent person, which is a person that is each of the aggregates of body and mind, but a person which is the mere collection of the aggregates of body and mind is accepted. >and claim that the eternal atoms or dharmas, which underlie existence, >is the Reality. "An ultimate truth [paramaarthasatya] is a phenomenon which is such that when it is broken up or separated into individual parts, the consciousness apprehending that object is not cancelled", the examples given being "directionally partless particles, temporally partless moments of consciousness, and uncompounded space [p.186]." >Stcherbatsky claims that their nirvAna is a lifeless material >state. I've some questions on this : For if Reality is only the >atom, then how can a Buddha on attaining nirvAna know that he's >attained nirvAna? According to the above quotation not only atoms are held to be ultimate truths, but also partless moments of consciousness (as well as uncompounded space). Also, "[a]ll Foe Destroyers [arhan], of the three vehicles [s'raavaka, pratyekabuddha, bodhisattva, and thus all Buddhas] have a nirvana with remainder [sopadhis'e.sanirvaa.na] because they assert that when one attains a nirvana without remainder [nitupadhis'e.sanirvaa.na] there is a severing of the continuum of consciousness, like the extinction of a flame [p.217]." Thus, there is no problem with a Buddha on attaining nirvaa.na with remainder being aware that he has attained such nirvaa.na, because the continuum of consciousness is not severed at this time, but there is no room for such an awareness upon the attainment of nirvaa.na without remainder, because the continuum of consciousness is then severed. >So what's the state of consciousness on attaining nirvAna? Having attained a nirvaa.na with remainder but still not a nirvaa.na without remainder, a Buddha has abandoned, as opposed to non-Buddha arhans, non-afflictive ignorance preventing the attainment of an all-knowingness, and thus his state of consciouness is one qualified by such all-knowingness, which means that if a Buddha thinks about objects, seen or unseen, he will know them one by one, but not simultaneously (paraphrased from pp.205/206). Upon attaining a nirvaa.na without remainder there is no state of consciousness at all, because the continuum of consciousness is then severed. >Or is there a consciousness atom? That would not be the case, as explained above. >I would be glad for some information regarding the VaibAshika view >of the Buddha before and after his parinirvAna. I hope to have reported faithfully how Tibetan Gelug scholars understand such view. >The SautrAntikas deny reality to both the Self and atoms The self negated by the Sautraantikas is the same negated by the Vaibhas.ikas, but a person which is either the continuum of the aggregates or the mental consciousness is accepted (p.238). As to atoms, they are said to be accepted to be ultimate truths by all Sautraantikas, either because they are irreducible, or because they perform the function of producing effects (p.237). >- so what's their Reality? "[An] ultimate truth is a phenomenon that is able to bear reasoned analysis from the point of view of whether it has its own mode of subsistence without depending on imputation by terms or conceptual consciousnesses [p.224]." Thus, whatever is not a concept is an ultimate truth, examples being an atom, a pot, a table, and a person. A concept is said to be a conventional truth, or a truth for an obscured awareness (sa.mv.rtisatya) (p.224). >Stcherbatsky claims that they thought there existed a subtle >consciousness after nirvAna. (I would also appreciate any further >information regarding the SautrAntika concept of nirvAna). Their assertions concerning nirvaa.na are said to be mostly similar to those of Vaibhaa.sikas, which were above reported (p.246). > The YogAcArins also deny the Self, but also deny the world as > well. Yogacaarins are said to deny a self of persons, similar to that denied by Vaibhaa.sikas and Sautraantikas, and also a self of other phenomena, which is an object that is a different entity from the consciousness apprehending it. Thus, the world is not denied, but only a world that is not the same entity as the consciousness apprehending it (pp.249/250). >For them the only Reality is vijnAna or consciousness, which upon >purification is nirvAna. An ultimate truth, or a thoroughly established nature, is said to be the lack, or emptiness of difference of entity between an object and the consciousness apprehending it (p.265). A consciousness, which is the same entity as the object it apprehends, is said to be a conventional truth, or a falsity (m.r.saa), because it does not exist the way it appears to (p.264). >Here it can be noted that all the schools - brAhmanical, >sarvAstivAda as well as YogAcAra asserted that Reality was >something inherent in the empirical world. However, according to Yogacaarins, an ultimate truth (which is an object's emptiness of existence as a separate entity from the cognizing consciousness), does not exist as a different entity from the consciousness apprehending it (pp.264/265) >That the world as a whole is not Real, but something in it - the >essence - the underlying Reality - Atman or anu or vijnAna - is >the Real. According to Vaibhaa.sikas, Sautraantikas, and Yogacaarins, the world as a whole is real, that is, it truly exists, because it exists independently of its appearance to the valid consciouness apprehending it (although it is not a different entity from the apprehending consciousness, according to Yogacaarins) (p.266). Thus, none has to assert an essence in the world, for it truly already exists. >NAgArjuna's basic attack is towards this - that there can be >no substance without attributes or attributes without substance. >So the concept of an "essence" or "inherent existence" is >logically untenable. Further, he and his disciples explicitly >attack and refute all the rival concets of Reality - Atman, anu, >vijnAna etc >So what's his nirvAna? Here, a nirvaa.na without remainder is said to be liberation from cyclic existence while directly cognizing emptiness (without any appearance of other phenomena apart from emptiness, as well as of inherent existence) which is followed by a nirvaa.na with remainder, when other phenomena apart from emptiness reappear together with their appearance of inherent existence (p.318). This is because such nirvaa.nas of arhans have eliminated only the conception, but not the appearance of inherent existence - which are eliminated only by Buddhas (id.) Thus, conception and appearance of inherent existence are eliminated, not phenomena themselves, which are merely imputed but existent phenomena. >Contrary to the claims that the mAdhyamika has no positions - >NAgArjuna in his MUlamAdhyamaka KArikA - asserts that there's no >difference between samsAra and nirvAna and that the limit of >samsAra is the limit of nirvAna - in short he seems to be equating >nirvAna with samsAra itself! Emptiness of inherent existence is said to be a "natural nirvaa.na", (prak.rtiparinirvaa.na) which is not a passing beyond sorrow, but an emptiness that is naturally passed beyond inherent existence (the conception of which being the source of all sorrow). The equation of sam.saara and nirvaa.na thus just indicates that phenomena and their ultimate mode of being (their emptiness) are the same entity, not separate entities, and not that sorrow and liberation from sorrow are the same (the last two paragraphs paraphrased from Jeffrey Hopkins' _Meditation on Emptiness_, Wisdom Publications, pp.218/219) > For all of other schools, Reality is ontologically different from > the empirical world as a whole - either as spirit or atoms or > consciousness. For Vaibhaa.sikas ultimate truths are the same entity as the phenomena of which the former are the parts. For Sautraantikas, ultimate truths are the conceived or appearing objects themselves. For Yogacaarins, as well as Maadhyamikas, phenomena and their ultimate truths - their emptiness- are the same entity, although different phenomena. Thus, no Buddhist school asserts a reality different from the empirical world as a whole, or from the observed objects, or from phenomena. >So considering NAgArjuna's refutation of the concept of essence >(and also identifying Reality with Atman or anu or vijnAna) and his >assertion that nirvAna is no different from samsAra, he's saying >that Reality is not ontologically different from the world. Yes, phenomena and their emptiness are the same entity but nevertheless different phenomena, or objects of knowledge. How is it possible? Because the sameness of entity is just imputed by conception. > So then what's Reality? Ultimate truth is phenomena's lack, or emptiness of inherent existence. >NirvAna is samsAra free of conceptual activity. A natural nirvaa.na is sa.msaara's ultimate mode of being, or its emptiness, which is directly perceived in a concept-free manner. >NAgArjuna's reality is more epistemological than ontological. An emptiness is said to exist, to be a truth - an ultimate truth. >When the mind wheel ceases, samsAra is nirvAna. When conception of inherent existence, which is the source of sa.msaara, ceases, one attains nirvaa.na. When conception of inherent existence ceases while in meditative equipoise, one directly cognizes a natural nirvaa.na. >But isn't this stance which denies the Self and also equates >nirvAna with samsAra, in contradiction to the fundemantal doctrine >of the middle way, which tries to take a middle position between > the existence and the non-existence of the Atman or Self? An aatman, or self, which means inherent existence is utterly denied; persons and other phenomena that are merely imputed are not denied, this being the middle way. Thus, phenomena which are sa.msaara are empty if inherent existence, and thus inseparable from their own emptiness, which is their natural nirvaa.na. Thus, denial of a self and equation of sa.msaara and nirvaa.na are fully compatible, as is assertion of merely imputed phenomena. >One more thing that I've against the MAdhyamika is that - if >nirvAna is but samsara devoid of conceptual activity - why >wouldn't the Buddha himself said so? A natural nirvaa.na is the ultimate mode of being of any phenomenon such as sa.msaara, and is its emptiness of inherent existence, which is directly apprehended in a non-conceptual manner. Also, nirvaa.na comes about not upon mere cessation of conceptual activity, but upon cessation of conception of self, or inherent existence. Besides, such suutras as the Kaas'yapaparivartha explicitly state that "that which is in the center between these two is unanalyzable, undemonstrable", and so forth. >Clearly this is not a very difficult concept to understand. So I find >it difficult to accept that something as simple as this, is the truth >behind the TathAgatha's thundering silence! Probably what you think is so simple has nothing to do with what the Tathaaghata meant, both with his speech and with his silence. >And this hardly relates favorably to the TathAgatha's dialogue with >KAshyapa, where he says that nirvAna is something which cannot be >predicated of anything in relation to the empirical world. An emptiness, or a natural nirvaa.na, is not an object certified, or directly cognized, by a conceptual consciousness, as all other phenomena such as sa.msaara are, and thus such predication indeed cannot take place. >In the Buddha's teachings itself there's no firm proof that he >denied a supersensible mystical reality different from the >empirical world. What the Buddha denied is a self. >But all the bauddha schools (except NAgasena >perhaps?) with their rationalistic ideals denied it and tried >to equate it with something in relation to the empirical world >itself. What Buddhist schools denied is a self. And, what is denied cannot be put in relation to whatever. >NAgArjuna though professesing to take the middle >between these two positions, The middle taken by Naagaarjuna is between inherent existence and utter non-existence, which means merely imputed, nominal existence. >also seems to be doing the same >(equating the Reality with something in realtion to the >empirical world - in his case it's the empirical world itself >devoid of thought), Emptiness is indeed related to other phenomena, because it is phenomena's mode of being. Emptiness is not an absolute, or something unrelated to phenomena. >thus cutting off any scope for mysticism in Buddhism. >Or is it so? If you equate mysticism with non-conceptuality, then a direct understanding of emptiness would be a mystic experience. > Grateful for any clarifications. Sorry for any obscurations, Julio. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Wed Oct 13 00:45:17 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 99 20:45:17 -0400 Subject: Looking for a book Message-ID: <161227052792.23782.9744933852231578980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I want to get a copy of a book "Jinnah and Gandhi" by S.K. Majumdar published in 1966 by Firma K.L.Mukhopadhyay, 6/1A Banchharan Akur Lane, Calcutta-12. I have explored several booksellers and also written to the address of the publisher but never got a response from them either. I will appreciate if any one who living in Calcutta can do some investigation about the publisher and see if it is still available in print or some one is willing to sell his/her own copy to me. I will glad to send payment in advance. -- Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya ICQ # 1131674 Fax #: 209-315-8571 Random thought of the day: Your life would be very empty if you had nothing to regret. From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Tue Oct 12 20:09:26 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 99 21:09:26 +0100 Subject: address? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052788.23782.9260638487978954764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 07:54:21 -0400 Send reply to: Indology From: Madhav Deshpande Subject: address? To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > I would appreciate if anyone knows the email address for Dr. Jim Benson at > Oxford, UK. Best, > Madhav Deshpande Reply James.Benson at Wolfson.ox.ac.uk From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 13 12:36:05 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 05:36:05 -0700 Subject: Fate of NCC Message-ID: <161227052806.23782.3269974218749840804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM wrote: Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: >Is this an etymological dictionary? If so, I would like to know if any >Munda or Dravidian language specialists are involved in the project. I am >interested especially in any information about any Tamil scholars (not >Tamil Sanskritists) involved in the project. Thanks in advance. The fact that experts of Tamil historical linguistics and lexicography are not included points to a big vacuum. Tamil lexicon (produced in 1920s), DED, and Sanskrit dictionary accurately analysing Dravidian loans, - all need to be brought uptodate. Long ago, F. Max Mueller recognized Tamil's place in his Prefatory Note to the book, Hindu manners, customs and ceremonies by the Abbe J. A. Dubois, OUP: "Nor it must be forgotten that while the real revival of Sanskrit studies took place in Bengal, the Abbe Dubois spent the whole of his life in the Dekhan and in the Madras Presidency. He was therefore, as may be seen by his translation of the Panchatantra, under the title of Le Panchatantra ou les cinq ruses, Fables du Brahme Vichnou- Sarma; Aventures de Paramarta et autres contes, le tout traduit pour la primiere fois, Paris, 1826, a Tamil far more than a Sanskrit scholar, and well acquainted with Tamil literature, which hitherto has been far too much neglected by students of Indian literature, philosophy, and religion." Kind regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Oct 13 04:03:29 1999 From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 09:33:29 +0530 Subject: Durga-sapta-sati Message-ID: <161227052795.23782.12101611794714178496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Was "Durga-sapta-sati" translated into Sindhi, can someone give references ? Thanks in advance, Surya P. Mittal ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD. Fax: (+91-11) 5647081, 5648053 A/15-17 Mohan Garden Phones: (011) 5648066, 5648067 Najafgarh Road New Delhi - 110 059. E-mailto:custserv at dkagencies.com Our Website : http://www.dkagencies.com Online Search : http://www.dkagencies.com/booksearch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Oct 13 14:02:39 1999 From: 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 10:02:39 -0400 Subject: Buddhism - conceptual doubts Message-ID: <161227052810.23782.4440143726147347500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The questions posed about Buddhist concepts of nirvA.na recently by Nanda Chandran were so numerous that to answer them all would require an unreasonably long posting. I will therefore here limit myself to responding to one of the more striking statements made towards the end of the mail, which discusses the "sameness" of sa.msAra and nirvA.na according to NAgArjuna: >Contrary to the claims that the mAdhyamika has no positions - >NAgArjuna in his MUlamAdhyamaka KArikA - asserts that >there's no difference between samsAra and nirvAna >and that the limit of samsAra is the limit of nirvAna >- in short he seems to be equating nirvAna >with samsAra itself! The verses in question are verse 19-20 of chapter XXV, nirvA.na pariik.sA, in the "mUlamadhyamaka kArikA" by NAgArjuna. The verses read: "na sa.msArasya nirvA.nAtki.m cidasti viSe.sa.nam / na nirvA.nasya sa.msArAtki.m cidasti viSe.sa.nam/ /nirvA.nasya ca yA ko.ti.h sa.msArasya ca / na tayorantara.m ki.m citsusUk.smamapi vidyate / In translation: "There is no distinction of sa.msAra from nirvA..a / There is no distinction of nirvA.na from sa.msAra / What [is the extent] of nirvA.na [is] also the extent of sa.msAra / A slightest difference of the two is also not known /" What should be pointed out here is that these verses do actually not directly state that nirvA.na equates sa.msAra. Rather, the verses use negations! Tibetan commentators have discussed the complexity of these verses, because if they are interpreted in such the way which was proposed by you, it would entail logical fallacies: if nirvA.na equals sa.msAra there is no enlightenment (bodhi), because sa.msAra is ignorance; if sa.msAra equals nirvA.na all sentient beings are already liberated, because nirvA.na is the cessation of suffering. Therefore, such a reading does not seem to grasp the gist of the verses. The 16.th century Tibetan commentator karma pa mi bskyod rdo rje in his text "dwags brgyud grub pa'i shing rta" suggests the following interpretation: NAgArjuna has in the preceding section just clearly shown nirvA.na to be empty (SUnya) and has in preceding chapters likewise shown sa.msAra to be empty. Thus, he here shows these two terms, nirvA.na and sa.msAra, to be conceptually relative, i.e. that the one can only be formulated in relation to the other, and that both are empty of an essence (svabhAva). What is empty cannot entail any difference to another. I would therefore suggest you to reconsider your interpretation of this point in the light of this Tibetan debate. I would enjoy to engage in discussion of the other points mentioned in your mail, but you would have to formulate your enquiries into several smaller issues in separate postings. With best regards, Ulrich T. Kragh Department of Asian Studies University of Copenhagen From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Oct 13 14:55:24 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 10:55:24 -0400 Subject: Need for S. Asia book search service (Was: Looking for a book) Message-ID: <161227052817.23782.9431124229148166024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aditya Mishra's request for help finding a copy of S. K. Mishra's "Gandhi and Jinnah" demonstrates that there is a need for a book search service for South Asian countries, one that would not only have its own stock of out of print and rare books but would receive and check the catalogs of others and send out its own want lists to antiquarian booksellers. In the end of course it ought to be online on the model of Bibliofind and the like. But since only a small minority of South Asian booksellers have their inventory lists online, that must wait. It seems to me this is a major commercial opportunity either for a beginning entrepreneur or for an established bookseller to expand its business. Since it would assist the local and world scholarly community and the literate public I venture to suggest this here hoping it is not a violation of the non-commerical nature of the list. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From amuellerin at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 13 11:47:36 1999 From: amuellerin at HOTMAIL.COM (=?utf-8?Q?Anna_M=C3=BCller?=) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 11:47:36 +0000 Subject: Email addresses? Message-ID: <161227052803.23782.9220167968396731691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> schmithausen at rrz.uni-hamburg.de >From: Dominik Wujastyk >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Email addresses? >Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:28:34 +0100 > >If you know the mail address of the following scholars, I should be >grateful to know them: > >Oscar Von Hinueber, >L. Schmithausen, >Michael Hahn, >E. Steinkellner. > > >Thanks, >Dominik > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 13 11:19:49 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 12:19:49 +0100 Subject: Demise of Dr. Hajime NAKAMURA (fwd) Message-ID: <161227052797.23782.12401805260829195937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 01:03:48 +0900 From: Hideaki. NAKATANI Subject: Demise of Dr. Hajime NAKAMURA 11 Oct. 1999 Dear Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, We have the deepest sadness to announce you the demise of Doctor Hajime NAKAMURA, president of the Institute of the Eastern Studies and professor emeritus of the University of Tokyo. He has deceased of acute renal insufficiency in the morning of the 10th of October 1999, at the age of eighty-six. In Japan, we are deeply saddened by the decease of the most eminent scholar who was at the same time an inexhaustible source of encouragement for young scholars. The public funeral will be held on the 6th of November 1999 at the Tsukiji-Honganji Temple (Tokyo). With best regards, Yours sincerely, Sengaku MAYEDA, Professor emeritus of the Universtiy of Tokyo, Department of Indian Philosophy and Buddhist Studies, Graduate School of Humanities and Sociology, University of Tokyo, Hongo, Bunkyo-ku, 113 Japan. Hideaki NAKATANI, Professor at the University of Kobegakuin. From wayneb at DNS3.UNIPISSING.CA Wed Oct 13 16:21:37 1999 From: wayneb at DNS3.UNIPISSING.CA (Wayne Borody) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 12:21:37 -0400 Subject: Deja Vu Experiences Message-ID: <161227052820.23782.10220579804595074572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings: I would be grateful to anyone who could provide me with specific references relating to the "deja vu" experience as it is recorded in Sanskrit literature--Vedic, philosophical, epic, puranic and medical. [I would also like to include an open question: should the experience of samsara, the various forms of yogi-pratyaksha and the experience of a deity's cosmic vishva-rupa be considered "deja vu experiences" or simply "deja-vu-like experiences" ?) Thank you, Wayne Borody (wayneb at dns3.unipissing.ca) Dept. of Philosophy Nipissing University North Bay, Ontario Canada From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 13 11:28:34 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 12:28:34 +0100 Subject: Email addresses? Message-ID: <161227052801.23782.1581891353447291739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you know the mail address of the following scholars, I should be grateful to know them: Oscar Von Hinueber, L. Schmithausen, Michael Hahn, E. Steinkellner. Thanks, Dominik From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Oct 13 11:49:56 1999 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 12:49:56 +0100 Subject: Email addresses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052808.23782.16459634416154635563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >If you know the mail address of the following scholars, I should be >grateful to know them: > >Oscar Von Hinueber, >L. Schmithausen, >Michael Hahn, >E. Steinkellner. > > >Thanks, >Dominik I could give you the mail adresses, but I suppose you mean e-mail adresses (which I do not have)? Regards, Georg v. S. From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Wed Oct 13 11:25:30 1999 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 13:25:30 +0200 Subject: Reference for naa.daa? Message-ID: <161227052799.23782.1724402365916476649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Under the word naa.da, MMW, referring to the Vaitanasutra, gives the feminine form naa.daa as the 'N. of a partic. verse'. I would be grateful for any help with the following related questions: 1. Where in the Vait. does this word occur? 2. Does it occur in other texts, and if so, where? 3. To what sort of verse(s) does naa.daa refer? Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Wed Oct 13 12:18:47 1999 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 14:18:47 +0200 Subject: Email addresses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052804.23782.13084457872966962666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Michael Hahn" Hahn.M at t-online.de (hahn.m) With kind regards, Roland Steiner From amuellerin at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 13 14:35:28 1999 From: amuellerin at HOTMAIL.COM (=?utf-8?Q?Anna_M=C3=BCller?=) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 14:35:28 +0000 Subject: Curses... Message-ID: <161227052815.23782.11248226254238469697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to everybody who gave me hints relating to literary sources, articles etc. dealing with curses and miracles. I'd still be grateful for further references. With kind regards, A.M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 13 14:03:30 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 15:03:30 +0100 Subject: Email addresses? In-Reply-To: <199910131219.OAA22706@Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> Message-ID: <161227052813.23782.16716051176422094175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm very grateful to everyone who has kindly provided me email addresses. Sincerely, Dominik -- -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Oct 13 22:06:16 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 18:06:16 -0400 Subject: Chabra family history book Message-ID: <161227052826.23782.15915062587876001126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A public library has asked my help for a patron looking for a book he has heard of on the Chabra family (no further information). The patron is from the Punjab. I suggested the other librarian check out OCLC under the additional spellings Cabara, Chabara, and Cabra (the latter two very off chances). I don't find anything under these after doing a quick OCLC search. Does anyone by chance know of such a book? Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK Wed Oct 13 19:33:42 1999 From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 20:33:42 +0100 Subject: Deja Vu Experiences In-Reply-To: <3804B18F.84BED903@dns3.unipissing.ca> Message-ID: <161227052822.23782.6221577212519550919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I remember, there are several such narratives in Wendy Doniger's book Dreams, illusions and other realities. Actually, I think she was still Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty when she published that one. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From m64pn3q1 at STUDENTS.SU.SE Wed Oct 13 20:38:24 1999 From: m64pn3q1 at STUDENTS.SU.SE (Patrik Nyman) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 22:38:24 +0200 Subject: Subhasitaratnakosa & Caurapancasika Message-ID: <161227052824.23782.14013600464369306030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would anyone know if there is a commentary on the Subhasitaratnakosa or Caurapa?casika published or available in some other way? With kind regards, Patrik Nyman From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 14 13:52:28 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 99 06:52:28 -0700 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227052828.23782.6303566734186615207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some examples from Lists of Dravidian loans in Sanskrit where Dr. -k- between two vowels is changed into a -g-, please. Do Dr. akatti > agastya and ta. akil > agaru/aguru belong to this phenomenon? Also, amongst Dravidian languages, words where ta. -k- between vowels is -g- elsewhere, eg., in Telugu or in Kannada. Thanks for any help, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 14 17:34:52 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 99 10:34:52 -0700 Subject: Buddhism - conceptual doubts Message-ID: <161227052830.23782.9028860297200621807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> First let me thank all those who responded. It's indeed an extremely interesting subject, since even today there're scholars trying to figure out the true teaching of NAgArjuna! And if anybody knows of a good book which analyzes the four bauddha schools, please let me know. (Thanks Richard, I'll take a look at the book you recommended.) For the time being let's concentrate only on NAgArjuna. After we sort this out we can turn our attention to the other schools. The verse as kindly translated by Ulrich goes this way : "There is no distinction of sa.msAra from nirvA.na There is no distinction of nirvA.na from sa.msAra What [is the extent] of nirvA.na [is] also the extent of sa.msAra A slightest difference of the two is also not known" And according to the interpretations of Anna, Julio, Ulrich and myself, we can come out with these possibilities : 1. samsAra is the same as nirvAna ontologically That is, no object has an essence. The notion that things have essence is the ignorance (avidhya), which leads to misery. Realization and intuitional experience of this is liberation. Thus there's no essence which is the reality, and when viewed without avidhya (cessation of the mind wheel), samsAra itself is nirvAna. 2. samsAra and nirvAna are but concepts and both are beyond knowledge NAgArjuna in the MMK, does an elaborate refutation of the ultimate validity of the pramAnas or the means of knowledge. All the so called valid means of knowledge, themselves don't stand critical examination - they only be used for practical day to day purposes and cannot be regarded as final truths. So knowledge itself is an impossibility! So when even samsAra is beyond knowledge, what can we say about nirvAna? For practical purposes we can say suffering and salvation, but beyond that we should not speculate. 3. The emptiness of samsAra (which is its true mode of being) is nirvAna Here we've to tread carefully, for NAgArjuna himself warns that those who try to make an end of emptiness itself, are beyond hope! Let's first try to understand the concept "empty". When we say the box is empty - we imply that 1. the box alone is and nothing else is inside and 2. it's empty of something (whatever the box might contain). So for the concept "empty" to work, we need both the box and that of which it is empty. One can only say, the box or the pot or my stomach is empty, but cannot use empty for itself. So Emptiness has no meaning by itself and can only exist in relation to that to which it is referenced. To say samsAra empty of inherent existence is nirvAna quite different from "the emptiness of samsAra is nirvAna". For in the latter, emptiness by itself is quantified and equated with nirvAna! And even in this line, there can be two interpretations : a. When the Buddha views an object, he but sees only the emptiness - which according to NAgArjuna is not really empty in the way it's normally understood : "it cannot be called void or not void or both nor neither, but to indicate it it is called void". This would but indicate that it's some kind of essence - an "other" to the object, but that NAgArjuna doesn't want to call it as essence. OR b. When the Buddha views an object, what he sees is emptiness - that is the object itself appears *as* empty! That would mean that the object doesn't appear at all! And if so what appears? Emptiness? That which cannot be related to form at all? But then how would you know that it is the object which appears as emptiness? Or is it as explained in the first alternative (a), that emptiness doesn't mean emptiness in the way it's commonly understood, but something beyond conception - supersensible and supernatural. I'll stop here and let the readers soak all these alternatives in. Probably none of the alternatives individually does justice to the MAdhyamika. But a reconciliation of all the three alternatives may! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Thu Oct 14 23:20:28 1999 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 99 16:20:28 -0700 Subject: Oriental Inst. Baroda (address request) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052832.23782.4767895848957022954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oriental Research Institute, Opposite Kirtistambha, M.S. University, Vadodara / Baroda 390 002. Prof. Vaman Mahadeo Kulkarni. 5 Suruchi Society, Dixit Rd. Extension, Vile Parle (East), Mumbai 400 057. >If someone could supply me with the address of the Oriental Institute, >Baroda, I would appreciate it. > >I am particularly interested in contacting Prof. V.M. Kulkarni, so if >anyone has his address (email or postal) I would appreciate that as well. > >best, >Tim Cahill From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 15 11:43:56 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 99 04:43:56 -0700 Subject: Native "h" in Tamil Message-ID: <161227052835.23782.15266152989502313502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Nanda Chandran wrote: >Unless ofcourse, the "ha" was never a part of Tamil vocabulary >and was derived from Samskrutam. [...] >But with the passage of time while the upper caste Tamils with >their proximity to the brAhmanas would have picked up the "ha", >the lower caste Tamils never did. It is unlikely that Tamil got the "ha" sound/alphabet in the way described above. As explained by Mr. Chandrasekar, Tamil has "ha" in its letters as aaytam(h) even in Cankam texts. Examples in Cankam Texts:ehku (spear, wrought iron), ahku (to shrink), ahtai(a person's name), ihtu (this one), ahtu (that one), kahtu (sediment of toddy), pahRi (pig), pahruLi (a river), vehku(to desire), .. V. S. Rajam, A reference grammar of classical Tamil poetry (150 B.C.-pre-fifth/sixth century A.D.), Am. Phil. Soc., 1992, p. 44 "The Aytam, literally meaning 'instrument/weapon', is the name of a Tamil speech sound represented in modern Tamil script as []. In poetry, it is treated like a vowelless consonant. As mentioned earlier, it is represented as .h in this study. In modern Tamil, the pronunciation of this letter is similar to the sound h in English, for example, in a word like "hen." >?From the modern pronunciation of the Aytam one can describe it as a "voiceless velar fricative." " ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Sat Oct 16 01:08:41 1999 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 99 18:08:41 -0700 Subject: Chabra family history book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052837.23782.5926678623154488057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen, I do not know the book your patron is looking for; however, a search under the spellings Chhabra and Capotkata (or Chapotkata, pronounced Caapotka.ta) should also be carried out. Dr. Bahadur Chandra Chhabra (the last address I have for him is P-6 Hauz Khas Enclave, New Delhi 110 016) has several compositions in Sanskrit to his credit, some under the penname / restored ancestral name Capotkata. As I recall he is/was a retired archaelogist. The title of one book of Skt verses/poems I remember is Pu.spahaasa.h. Good wishes. -- ashok >A public library has asked my help for a patron looking for a book he >has heard of on the Chabra family (no further information). The >patron is from the Punjab. I suggested the other librarian check out >OCLC under the additional spellings Cabara, Chabara, and Cabra (the >latter two very off chances). I don't find anything under these after >doing a quick OCLC search. Does anyone by chance know of such a book? > >Allen Thrasher > > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >Senior Reference Librarian >Southern Asia Section >Asian Division >Library of Congress >LJ-150 >101 Independence Ave., S.E. >Washington, DC 20540-4810 >U.S.A. >tel. 202-707-3732 >fax 202-707-1724 >email: athr at loc.gov > >The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the >Library of Congress. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 17 17:07:37 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 99 10:07:37 -0700 Subject: Tamil Heritage Message-ID: <161227052839.23782.634253840413059497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >So if as per the recent posts, there exists so many words which are >pronounced with a "ha", how can early Tamil grammarians have failed to >create a Tamil alphabet for "ha"? Would they have left it in an ambiguous >way as explained by Ganesan - that as per the context "ka" should be spelt >as "ha", which bears no relation to it by sound - if >that's the rule then "ka" can be pronounced as "la", "ma" or >anything whatsoever. There would be no logic to it. This hardly >points to systematic thought, which cannot be unfairly attributed >to TolkAppiyam. Truly, TolkAppiyar was a genius in linguistics. There is great logic inherent and a predictable pattern for pronouncing ta. 'hard' consonants, k, c, .t, t, p, .r. Example: The Tamil "vallinam" (hard consonant) letter, k has three sounds - h, g or k depending on the context of its occurence, In Classical Tamil (CT) texts, a person's name aHtai, where H is the Aytam letter of tamil, is written sometimes as akutai. In later texts (Eg., in Cologne Tamil Texts Thesaurus), CilappatikAram, Pazamozi, etc., iHtu(this one), aHtu(that one) are written in some places as ikutu and akutu respectively. Note the correspondence between H and k in aHtai/akutai, aHtu/akutu etc., K. V. Zvelebil, Tamil literature, E.J.Brill, 1975 Note on Transliteration and Pronunciation, p. X, " p, t, .t, c, k are pronounced differently according to their position: initially , p, t, and k are voiceless stops, .t does not occur, and c is initially pronounced as s or sh. Between vowels, p, t, .t are voiced into b, d, and .d and pronounced as lax voiced stops; k and c are pronounced as gh or h and s or sh. After nasals, all stops are voiced into b, d, .d, j, g. Instances: akam is usually pronounced aham, TolkAppiyam as tolhAppiyam, kuRuntokai as kurundohey, naRRiNai as nattiney." Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From emstern at NNI.COM Sun Oct 17 23:28:02 1999 From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 99 19:28:02 -0400 Subject: Email addresses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052841.23782.6400814384097463085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >If you know the mail address of the following scholars, I should be >grateful to know them: > >Oscar Von Hinueber, >L. Schmithausen, >Michael Hahn, >E. Steinkellner. > > >Thanks, >Dominik Ernst.Steinkellner at univie.ac.at Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA telephone: 215 747 6204 From vkdhar at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Oct 18 05:05:20 1999 From: vkdhar at IX.NETCOM.COM (Vijay K. Dhar) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 99 22:05:20 -0700 Subject: Sharada Script Translation Message-ID: <161227052843.23782.7649438135859693105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have an old book written in Sharada script and was wondering if someone could help in having this translated into Devanagri. Can anyone help point me in the right direction? Secondly, is anyone aware of Sharada script-fonts for PC or Mac? Thank You Vijay K. Dhar KSF Mill Valley, CA From Patrik.Nyman at ORIENT.SU.SE Mon Oct 18 06:09:11 1999 From: Patrik.Nyman at ORIENT.SU.SE (Patrik Nyman) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 99 08:09:11 +0200 Subject: Email addresses? Message-ID: <161227052845.23782.1322383991697409270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Hahn: Hahn.M at t-online.de, hahnm at mailer.uni-marburg.de From ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE Mon Oct 18 08:44:52 1999 From: ke.raadsrots at UNICALL.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 99 10:44:52 +0200 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227052848.23782.8013765832151297580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. N. Ganesan, Are you sure agasti is derived from Drav. akatti? Rather tan the reverse or both from a third language? As for the seemingly derived name Agastya, Eric Pirart (Les forces du mal dans la Rgvedasamhita, Journal Asiatique 1998/2, if I'm not mistaken) explains it as a loan from Iranian, a-gast-, "without foul smell, without sin, impeccable". Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Oct 18 18:22:18 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 99 14:22:18 -0400 Subject: Chabra family history book Message-ID: <161227052850.23782.12902004173267913044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ashok, Thanks for the suggestion. A couple of other people also suggesed the spelling Chhabra, which didn't turn anything up. We have Puspahasah and 13 orther titles of Mr. C., mostly on ancient history. Thanks, Allen From sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET Mon Oct 18 18:28:15 1999 From: sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET (S Stephen) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 99 14:28:15 -0400 Subject: Chabra family history book Message-ID: <161227052853.23782.15274572330708414118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.bookfinder.com has a few books on and by Dr. B.Ch.Chhabra. sujata ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen W Thrasher To: Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Chabra family history book > Dear Ashok, > > Thanks for the suggestion. A couple of other people also suggesed > the spelling Chhabra, which didn't turn anything up. We have > Puspahasah and 13 orther titles of Mr. C., mostly on ancient history. > > Thanks, > > Allen > From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Oct 18 18:53:19 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 99 14:53:19 -0400 Subject: Chabra family history book Message-ID: <161227052855.23782.2906274683874144342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to all who sent in suggestions to me on this, especially those who pointed out the spelling Chhabra. I think I have thanked each personally off the list but if not please accept these thanks. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 18 21:55:17 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 99 14:55:17 -0700 Subject: Etymology of the Skt. word "taDAka" Message-ID: <161227052859.23782.5508159632860182912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the etymology of the Skt. word "taDAka" meaning "pond"? Thanks, Chandra ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From Joperry2 at AOL.COM Mon Oct 18 21:04:19 1999 From: Joperry2 at AOL.COM (John Oliver Perry) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 99 17:04:19 -0400 Subject: Tamil alphabets Message-ID: <161227052857.23782.18357548107477655853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As an ignoramus in such matters, I am wondering why it is assumed (it seems from recent exchanges by N. Ganesan, et al.) that alphabets are constructed logically or will evolve logically over eons of varied use? I am aware that the so-called Roman alphabet uses the letter "c" (in various languages) to stand for a variety of sounds which have not been distinguished elsewhere in the alphabet, despite the confusion over how to read-and-sound that letter. Is the Brohmi-Devanagari alphabet entirely logical? So why should the Tamil be? Did the equivalent of the Tamil Academy arrange it perfectly at an early period so as to take care of all (then used) sounds separately? Since I approach this question without any knowledge of the history of the Tamil language, but also, as I am here suggesting, without any assumptions about it, I may be answered simply about the assumption of logicality-- or else off-channel. ATB JOP From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 18 22:15:19 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 99 18:15:19 -0400 Subject: tretAyuga - etymology Message-ID: <161227052862.23782.8459839280873635036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A Tibetan translation (?) of a commentary on the Lankavatara-sutra by an author named Jnanavajra contains in a list of the four yugas (kRta tretA etc) a rendering of tretAyuga which indicates that the translators took the term as if from the root trA, protect, rather than as related to three (the historically correct derivation). This is to my knowledge unusual or unique. I wonder if there might be some Indian etymology which links tretAyuga with trA somehow? Any hints? Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520 tel. 203-432-0828 From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Mon Oct 18 22:48:09 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 99 18:48:09 -0400 Subject: Tamil alphabets Message-ID: <161227052864.23782.2529833565137488197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *As an ignoramus in such matters, I am wondering why it is assumed (it seems *from recent exchanges by N. Ganesan, et al.) that alphabets are constructed *logically or will evolve logically over eons of varied use? In Tamil it is arranged logically. While it may be argued, the Alphabet system of Sanskrit is quite possibly derived from the Tamil system. * * I am aware that the so-called Roman alphabet uses the letter "c" (in *various languages) to stand for a variety of sounds which have not been *distinguished elsewhere in the alphabet, despite the confusion over how to *read-and-sound that letter. Is the Brohmi-Devanagari alphabet entirely *logical? So why should the Tamil be? Did the equivalent of the Tamil *Academy arrange it perfectly at an early period so as to take care of all *(then used) sounds separately? Yes, surprisingly. * Since I approach this question without any knowledge of the history of *the Tamil language, but also, as I am here suggesting, without any *assumptions about it, I may be answered simply about the assumption of *logicality-- or else off-channel. ATB JOP * In Tamil there are definite rules as to what letters in its alphabet can come at the beginning of words, ends of words etc. Even about rules as to what letters are allowed to come after what etc. They are all formed based on some simple natural principles. For example since the tongue has to bend so much before articulating retroflex T,N,L, and the liquid 'zh', and other 'iTaiyin2am' r,l etc. they are not allowed to come as the first letter of a word. (if a todler is asked to say RAmA, s/he will more often say AmA since it is hard to pronounce the first 'r') The idea is in order to bend the tongue to pronounce these letters the mouth has to open a bit and in that process a vowel is said (though subtlely). Such opening of the mouth is called 'aGkAttal' in Tamil. Tamil system is based on a subtle system of economy. Tamil language is not just a mode of mundane communication, it is in itself a form of philosophy, culture, and art! It may look like an hyperbole, but it is not. C.R.Selvakumar From hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Tue Oct 19 02:48:50 1999 From: hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 99 19:48:50 -0700 Subject: Etymology of the Skt. word "taDAka" Message-ID: <161227052868.23782.14567331682040067761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ------- This is in response for an Etymology of the Skt. word "taDAka": Possible: taDa (AghAtE) Akah = taDAkah > taDAgah A source of water five hundred bow-length long, each bow length equal to twenty-four inches - is called 'taDAga'. "chatur-vimsha-angulo hasto dhanus tat chatur uttaram | shata dhanu-antaram chaiva tAvat puShariNi shubhA | Etat pancha-guNah prOktas taDAga iti niRNayah ||" "taDAgO (strI) jalAdhAra-vishEShe yanthra kUTakE" - mEdinI kOsha. "padmAkarO tatAkO (strI)...." -iti amarh. Some interpreters take it as a special lake/pond with lotuses! "taTAkah", 'taTAgah", "taDAgah" are its variations. This is what I think as a quick response to the query. Sincerely, -Harihareswara Stockton, California. ========QUESTION===== Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:55:17 -0700 From: Periannan Chandrasekaran Subject: Etymology of the Skt. word "taDAka" What is the etymology of the Skt. word "taDAka" meaning "pond"? Thanks, Chandra =============== From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Oct 19 01:49:41 1999 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 99 21:49:41 -0400 Subject: Tamil alphabets Message-ID: <161227052866.23782.18210277877301598297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Do aspirants exist at all in the tamil alphabet ? tamil speakers always mix up the order of aspirated consonants when speaking hindi. bhikari -- bikhari Is there is tendency to separate all guttural and aspirated consonants by lesser stressed consonants to ease delivery of speech and increase speed. aspirants in the beginning of most words are also not voiced. contrast this with the tendency of english speakers to always aspirate the first consonant of each word. Many tamilians actually cotton on to this feature of english pretty fast but dont do it as enthusiastically when speaking hindi (may be because its closer to tamil in terms of euphonical rules). khel becomes kel wheras khar(car) is pronounced properly. I guess different languages can throw up different requirements of euphony based on diferent philosophies. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 19 15:20:02 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 08:20:02 -0700 Subject: Tamil alphabets Message-ID: <161227052879.23782.667359243001028139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Perry, Surely, Tamil linguists understood the logic of sounds quite well and devised the tamil alphabets needed to describe their language sounds adequately about 2000 years ago. In the modern tamil alphabets, there are only about 45 independent glyphs to describe the entire language. Ie., to write down 12 vowels(uyir/"soul"), 18 consonants(mey/"body"), 12X18 vowel-consonants(uyirmey/"soul-body"/"living units") and 1 aaytam. This economy in the number of letters, especially in its consonants, was generated by the logical analysis in the tamil grammar. Among the world's languages that use phonetic alphabets, Tamil has the least number of letters(=30, 12 vowels+18 consonants). While all other Indian languages has borrowed the Sanskrit alphabets enmasse, it is significant that Tamil has not done that. This economy, achieved by logical design, in the total number of alphabets or glyphs is one reason why writing technologies enter via tamil into india. Eg., printing("accu"), typewriters("taTTezuttu"), computer fonts("vaDivu"), etc., The bilingual fonts, called TSCII or TAB, where tamil and english in a single document are exchanged thru' emails("minmaDal")/egroups("minkulAm")/elists("minpaTTi") etc., In the http://www.tamil.net archives, one can see the use of single quotes with tamil alphabets to describe alien sounds, in case of retaining the sound in foreign names. This was a proposal by Prof. Selvakumar of Canada long ago. In this scheme, nine sounds alien to Tamil are handled. f, g, j, D, d, b, s, S, h are written using tamil letters 'v, 'k, 'c, 'T, 't, ~c, ^,s, q(=Aytam) respectively. Let me quote from "Tamil as a Classical language" submitted by Tamil Nadu Govt. to the Prime Minister, Mr. A. B. Vajpayee. Its author is the eminent educator, Prof. V. C. Kulandaiswamy, Former Vice-Chancellor, Indira Gandhi National University and the Inst. of Asian studies, Chennai. "The highly schematical phonemic system of Tamil is a strong indication that the early Tamil grammarians had a clear grasp of the principle which now forms the basis of modern linguistics. Daniel Jones in his book The Phoneme wrote: "Tamil is a language which illustrates particularly well the grouping several quite distinctive sounds into single phoneme". C. R. Sankaran, a Sanskrit scholar himself, after studying the chapter on phonology in the two millennium old Tamil grammar TolkAppiyam wrote "such an emphasis on the pattern inherent in the sounds of the language of study, and the attempt to establish, on the basis of their occurence and distribution, the types of sounds which must have been significant in distinguishing the meaning of words is not met with, even in the Astadhyayi of Panini". This can be mentioned as a very significant contribution of the ancient Tamil grammatical tradition to linguistics." Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 19 15:48:32 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 08:48:32 -0700 Subject: Tamil alphabets Message-ID: <161227052881.23782.15657748425175883561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In this scheme, nine sounds alien to Tamil are handled. >f, g, j, D, d, b, s, S, h are written using tamil letters >'v, 'k, 'c, 'T, 't, ~c, ^s, q(=Aytam) respectively. Sorry, this should read as: In this scheme, nine *letters* alien to Tamil are handled. f, g, j, D, d, b, s, S, h are written using tamil letters 'v, 'k, 'c, 'T, 't, 'p, ~c, ^c, q(=Aytam) respectively. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 19 18:57:38 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 11:57:38 -0700 Subject: Information required Message-ID: <161227052883.23782.3965812837726091685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like some information on the quality of the book, "A critical survey of Indian Philosophy", by C Sharma - regarding the depth of analysis, the extent of information covered, presentation etc Also would appreciate similar information on Ganganatha Jha's "Indian Thought". ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Oct 19 14:41:48 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 15:41:48 +0100 Subject: Tucci volumes reprinted Message-ID: <161227052878.23782.1618969599067118187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It has come to my attention that Giuseppe Tucci's great work "Tibetan Painted Scrolls" is about to be reprinted, in three vols. Many of the original b/w repros of thangkas will now appear in color as the small Bangkok-based publisher has secured many color slides from the current owners. Further enquiries to: Asian Rare Books -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 20 00:03:40 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 17:03:40 -0700 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227052885.23782.2663645692607707380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RM Krishnan writes : >These pro-sukra Brahmins practiced a modified form of vedic >yagnas. They also included many native practices including that of Agamas >originating in the south. These people >were called Brihacharanas. They settled first around Thiru ANNamalai, about >125 kilometres from the present CheNNai. Subsequently, when Buddism and >Jainism became popular in the Magath kingdom (600BC-200Bc) and perhaps the >entire north and northeast India, quite a number of pro-Brhaspathi >Brahmins, especially from Kashi (BeNAras), also moved into the south and >further into Tamilnadu. They were called the vadamAs (northeners). Even >today, philosophically there are differences between the two groups and >marriages are entered into reluctantly. There is now a gradual assimilation >between the two groups, due to modern influences. I'm not at all sure this reflects the true reason for the friction between Vadamas and other brahmins in Tamil Nadu. As far as I've observed the 'superiority' of the Vadama, springs mostly from the perceived closer connection to Vedic culture and Samskrutam, than the other brahmins in Tamil Nadu (probably because they were the last to come into Tamil Nadu). But note that the bruhacharanam, AshtashAstram, VAthimA etc are themselves stauch smarthas and followers of Adi ShankarAchArya. And considering the strong anti non-brahmin attitude which is revealed in samskrutic and especially VedAntic literature concerning the non-eligibility of non-brahmins to study the Vedic literature, the argument that they were anti-Vedic or anti-Brhaspathy doesn't find much support. And also there's hardly any evidence that the non-vadamas married into non-brahmin groups. There are as casteist as the vadamas. And though there's some reluctance for marraige alliances between the Vadamas and non-vadamas, it's not unusual either. That RAmanujAchArya was a vadama and probably quite a few of his immediate followers (VedAnta DesikA too) were Vadamas and that it's generally considered that the Vadamas would *mature* into Vaishnavism (read VisishtAdvaitam), might have been one of the reasons for the friction between vadamas and other brahmin sects. But also note that the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, has had some Vadamas as ShankarAchAryas too. The present pontiff Jayendra Saraswati, too, I think is a Vadama. And Vadamas don't look down upon other Tamil smarthas only. I've even heard vadamas who reside in Palaghat, speak with contempt about Namboodaris too! And Madhvas and also Vadama Iyengars too don't find much favor. I think it's just a case of the "one who's preserved the pure tradition". So reading an Aryan-Dravidian clash in the friction between Tamizh brahmins is stretching it a bit too far! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Oct 19 13:12:18 1999 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM.Krishnan) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 18:12:18 +0500 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227052870.23782.13542595659463400032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr.Koenraad Elst, At 10/18/99 10:44:00 AM, you wrote: >Dear Dr. N. Ganesan, > >Are you sure agasti is derived from Drav. akatti? Rather tan the reverse or >both from a third language? As for the seemingly derived name Agastya, Eric >Pirart (Les forces du mal dans la Rgvedasamhita, Journal Asiatique 1998/2, >if I'm not mistaken) explains it as a loan from Iranian, a-gast-, "without >foul smell, without sin, impeccable". > >Yours sincerely, >Koenraad Elst >http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ This is a lengthy posting {regarding the intervocalic 'k' originally addressed to N.GanEsan}. Since this was a subject of interest to me, I have attempted to reply in two parts. I would welcome the comments from the members and especially you. Before we discuss about the etymology of the name 'Agaththiyar', we need to understand few things: Whom are we talking about? According to Sanskrit works, the sage 'Agastya' keeps cropping up during various periods of ancient Indian history and myths at various regions. He appears to be omnipresent and omnipotent. One is not able to make head and tail out of a personage who seems to have existed, as per these works, for more than 1000 years. Fortunately, Pargiter, one of the earlist authorities on Ancient Indian Historical tradition gave an illuminating suggestion. He said: AgastyAs, VasisthAs, and VisvaAmitrAs mentioned in the Sanskrit works, were not each one man (baffling the reader by appearing and re-appearing in every age from that of IksvAku to that of Sri Krishna,) but were a series of men, their names being family names and not personal names. This idea reduces the chaos to order. [In fact many such names eventually became the gothra names for brahmins. In the modern times, many brahmins have these gothra names as the last names (like BharatvAj, Kaundinya etc.)]. The Agastya appearing in the vedic period is far removed in time to the Agastya mentioned in the puraNas and who in turn is far removed from the Agastya mentioned in the epic period. The standard sanskrit etymolgy attributed to Agstya is supposed to be obtained by splitting the word into many syllables,viz., a-ga-as-tya Here, 'a' is a prefix meaning 'not'; 'ga'-means 'go', So 'aga' would mean one that does not move (hence mountain or hill); Finally 'as' - meaning 'throw'. Adding all these pieces, Agastya is supposed to mean one who has subdued the mountain. The mountain ascribed by the myths is said to be the Vindya ranges. Unfortunately the suggested etymology, if it had been significant, does not appear to fit the personage described in the vedic period, since the myth of crossing the Vindyas is not at all mentioned in the Rig Veda. (His slokas appear in the sUktas 165-191, first mandala) The vedic description of the first Agastya is that he is the son of Mitra -VaruNa and brother of Vashista. His wife was said to be 'Lopamutra', daughter of a Vidharba King. Even the supposed fact of Vashista being the brother of Agastya is doubted by Rakula SAnkruthyAya in his book, 'Rigvedic Aryas,' since Agastya, in his slokas, does not mention about the principal war (i.e.the one most prominently mentioned in the Rig Veda) fought by Sudas against the Ten Dasyu princes with exhortation and participation of Vasistha. Subsequent Agastya descendents appear to have become pro-sukras (meaning they were helping Asuras/Dasyus; sukra is an asura teacher) and anti-Brhaspathi (i.e. brahmin rishis who were helping dEvAs; Brhaspathi is a dEvA teacher). This split has been surmised by an earlier historian P.T.Srinivas Iyengar (History of Tamils from the earliest times to 600AD), and emphasized by a modern historian Prof.N.Subrahmanian (The Brahmin in the Tamil Country). Even Prof. Asko Parpolo in his magnum opus "Indus script' has suggested that two batches of migrations of Aryans may have come into India. The first one, being of very small scale, might have got merged with the native population of the present day Afganistan, Pakistan and North India. As per him, this first wave of Aryans (who got submerged with the natives) were called Dasyus/PaNis/Asuras. The second wave of Aryans were the sOma-Aryans. There was continous conflict between the two batches. The second batch who resisted integration with the natives were fighting principally with their earlier batch (i.e. those who got submerged with the native population), and occasionally with the natives. I tend to find some truth in this proposition, because a similar antogonism was also presumed to have prevailed in the south when a few Bramins moved into south few centuries later. Here also, there were two batches. When the pro-Brhaspathi aryans could win against the pro-sukra aryans and started to descend from Afganistan into sapta-sindu and then to gangetic valley, the pro-sukra brahmins, who were the teachers to kings and nobles, also gradually moved further into south crossing the Vindyas. (This is how the agastya crossing myth might have got originated.) They found receptive Southern kings, especially in Tamil nadu. These pro-sukra Brahmins practiced a modified form of vedic yagnas. They also included many native practices including that of Agamas originating in the south. These people were called Brihacharanas. They settled first around Thiru ANNamalai, about 125 kilometres from the present CheNNai. Subsequently, when Buddism and Jainism became popular in the Magath kingdom (600BC-200Bc) and perhaps the entire north and northeast India, quite a number of pro-Brhaspathi Brahmins, especially from Kashi (BeNAras), also moved into the south and further into Tamilnadu. They were called the vadamAs (northeners). Even today, philosophically there are differences between the two groups and marriages are entered into reluctantly. There is now a gradual assimilation between the two groups, due to modern influences. So the myth of crossing the Vindyas must have originated in the puraNic period (1200BC-600BC); hence it must have referred to a later Agastya (who could be a pro-sukra). One can not name an earlier vedic personage through a myth supposed to have happenned during the later generations. So the name 'Agastya' must have preceeded the supposed fact of crossing the mountain. We will continue in the next posting. With regards, RM.Krishnan. From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Oct 19 13:12:22 1999 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM.Krishnan) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 18:12:22 +0500 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227052873.23782.11174477976191160359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10/18/99 10:44:00 AM, you wrote: >Dear Dr. N. Ganesan, > >Are you sure agasti is derived from Drav. akatti? Rather tan the reverse or >both from a third language? As for the seemingly derived name Agastya, Eric >Pirart (Les forces du mal dans la Rgvedasamhita, Journal Asiatique 1998/2, >if I'm not mistaken) explains it as a loan from Iranian, a-gast-, "without >foul smell, without sin, impeccable". > >Yours sincerely, >Koenraad Elst >http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ Dear Dr.Koenraad Elst, We move on to my part no.2. So what is the etymology of the name 'Agastya'? There are a number of names similar to 'Agastya' in the other Indo-European languages, like Augustus, Augustinus, Augustanus, Augustulus in Latin, Augusti in Germanic, Augustine in English etc. These have been natural names in Europe even before the Christian Era. If we look at the Latin name 'Augustus', the meaning appears to be 'consecrated or venerable.' In the Bloomsbury Dictionary of Word Origins, John Ayto suggests the following: August [OE] The month of August was named by the Romans after their Emporer (63BC -14AD). His name was Caius Julius Caesar Octavian, but the Senete granted him the honorary title Augustus in 27BC. This connoted 'imperial majesty,' and was a specific use of the adjective 'augustus' -{ 'magnificient, majestic' (source of Englist august [17])}; it may derive ultimately from the verb 'augere'-[ 'increase' (from which English gets auction and augment)]. Now we come to Tamil. Unfortunately, many Indologists do not consider the Dravidian words when looking for similarity with and tracing the etymology of Indo-European words. There is much to benefit from doing so. In my deeply held view, considering the North Indian languages (together with Sanskrit) and the European languages as two branches of a single Indo-European tree is only a first step. Most probably, the dravidian languages form an earlier branch of the same tree. In Tamil, the verb 'akai -thal', as per "The Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Tamil Language" vol-1,part -1, has meanings 'to sprout; to thrive, flourish, grow well, as vegetation; to blossom, to expand. ('thal' in the rendering is an infinitive end). Incidentally, 'k' in the Tamil word 'akai-thal' has to be pronounced as 'g' due to positional rules, as suggested earlier by N.Ganesan. There are also equivalent words in other Dravidian Languages.viz., MalayaLam - aga, Kannada- age, Telugu - Agu, ThuLu - aggE etc; As you can see, there is a similar meaning of 'increase' for the Latin word. One beauty of the Latin and Dravidian sources is that there is no need to split the word un-naturally to fit a supposed myth. Why do I say that this is a probable derivation? Because, there are a few more natural words in Tamil with a similar meaning of blossom,expand,increase,extend etc. For example, akalthal(v) - to extend, to expand, to spread, to widen,to broaden, to get into greatness, to enlarge akaram - town in an agricultural tract (meaning extended field); originally a place where mostly brahmins live akattuthal(v) - to open wide akaRRuthal (v) - to widen, to broaden, to extend,to increase, akappu - height akaRci - breadth akaRRam - width,expanse Arththi - mountain ebony tree, widely prevalent in ancient tamil nAdu. This is a broad tree with intense branches, and blossoms intensely. This is also a royal floral insignia of the Cholas. Al - Typical Indian Banyan tree, prevalent largely in the north India during ancient times. In Tamil, as in other Indian languages, vowels and consonants are not always explicitly written. They are rendered in a combined fashion. (i.e. there are consonant-vowel combinations with explicit glyphs.) Also vowels are of two types, long and short. (For example, 'A' is long and 'a' is short. We say 'a' is lengthened to 'A' and both are related). Now, let there be three consonants c1, c2 and c3. and three short vowels v1,v2 and v3. A word can be of this form [(c1v1)(c2v2)(c3v3)....]. .It is often a practice in Tamil to coin a new rendering of the word formation (but with the same meaning) by dropping (c2v2) and lengthening v1 to V1. For example, [(pa)(ku)(thi)] means divided portion and hence quotient, half, etc. By dropping (ku) and lengthening a to A, we get [(pA)(thi)]; Similarly mikuthi(remainder) becomes mIthi. peyar (name) becomes pEr. makan (son) becomes mAn etc. This type of changed rendering is not a one way process. There can be a reverse process. i.e. [(c1V1)(c3v3)] can become [(c1v1)(c2v2)(c3v3)....]. Now I come to my central arguement. Athan is proper name in general use in ancient times. Athan has the same meaning as suggested to 'Augustus' - foremost person, venerated person, person with virtuous quality etc. The following are the typical names in Tamil and dravidian languages. Athan azici, Athan ungan, Athan Ori - names of petty kingdoms in Sangam literature. CEralAthan, celvak katungkO vAziyAthan - names of cEra emporers in Sangam literature. Athappa, Athayya are proper names in modern Kannada. Athan is a proper name in modern MalayaLam. Athappan, Aththappan, saththappan are proper names in modern Tamil. AthikAn, AthikAtu are proper names in modern Telugu. Athamangalam, AthanUr are place names in modern Tamil nadu. Athan has been a prefix or a suffix in many old Tamil names. The root is 'aku' (meaning:to sprout; to thrive, flourish, grow well, as vegetation; to blossom, to expand.) 'aku' can turn into 'akai' quite easily. The etymology is aku - A - Aku. This is similar to paku-pA and miku - mI 'Athan' and 'akathan' are two renderings with same meaning. 'akathan' in Tamil would quite naturally change into 'akathyan' and further drop 'n' when moving into Sanskrit; and finally turn into 'akasthya > agastya'. Before I conclude, I should perhaps place other parallel words. Athan - man (in Tamil), Admi in Hindi and Urdu, Adam in Hebrew and a host of other languages. Athan - body, spirit and self (in Tamil), Atman (in sanskrit), atmaya (in sinhalese) attan (in pAli), atta (in prakrit), ahma (gothic), atum(Old German). I am not suggesting that one has come from the other. I am only suggesting that by including the dravidian languages in the search we get better results; and perhaps we may come to a revision of our outlook/dogma. With regards, RM.Krishnan. Note: Regarding the derivation from Iranian sources as to 'without smell' and 'without sin' etc, I would like to raise a question; does the meaning appear to be so in other Indo-European languages? Is there a name similar to 'Agastya' in Iranian? Why should one insist on smell being not present? what is so significant about it? Is having smell a sin? When all rishis are supposed to be without sin, why should Agastya be designated as sin-free? I am not very clear. From balakrishnanraju at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 19 20:12:27 1999 From: balakrishnanraju at HOTMAIL.COM (balakrishnan raju) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 20:12:27 +0000 Subject: Contact in Tanjore Message-ID: <161227052875.23782.2607642660738556411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The District Collector of Tanjore has since been transfered. Dr. Rajaram is the present incumbent. His telephone numbers are: 91-4362 30102 (office);91-4362 30201 (Res); 91-4362 30206 (Fax) Best Wishes R.Balakrishnan >From: Dominik Wujastyk >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: Contact in Tanjore >Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:02:30 +0100 > >The person to contact is > >Mr P Perumal, >Chief Conservator, >Thanjavur Maharaja Serfoji's Saraswati Mahal Library, >Thanjavur 613 009, >Tamil Nadu, >India. > >The Thanjavur Collector, Mr T. Shanmuga Rajeswaran, is also Director of >the TMSSML, but I think Mr Perumal is a better first contact. Mr Perumal >has studied conservation in Japan and the UK, including visiting periods >at the V & A and the Wellcome Library. He is well-acquainted with the >international scene, and generally a Good Thing :-) Perumal's phone no. >is >+91 4362 51036 (res), >+91 4362 34107 (office). > >Also at the TMSSML is Smt. Rajalakshmi, a Sanskrit Pandit, who is very >nice and a good source of information on the Sanskrit collections. Also >Mr Padmanabhan, Records Clerk, is kind and helpful. > >When I was there in April, email was just being talked about as Real Soon >Now. They had a bunch of computers, but no connectivity. I'm afraid I >have lost the fax number (if you get it, could you let me have it?). > >Best, >Dominik > > >On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Kenneth Zysk wrote: > > > I am trying to obtain copies of Sanskrit manuscripts from the Tanjore > > Maharaja Serfoji's Sarasvati Mahal Library in Tanjore. > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk >Founder, INDOLOGY list ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 20 06:29:44 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 99 07:29:44 +0100 Subject: Numata lectures announcemnt (fwd) Message-ID: <161227052888.23782.13042824063701778989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:44:25 +0700 From: Ulrich Pagel Subject: Re: Numata lectures announcemnt (fwd) School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London Department of the Study of Religions The Bukkyo Dendo Kyokai Visiting Professorship 1999 Professor Paul Harrison will deliver a series of lectures entitled Visions of Perfection: The Beginnings of the Sukhavati Tradition of Mahayana Buddhism and conduct seminars on related topics 5 November to 15 December 1999 Fri. 5 November, 5pm, Main Lecture Theatre Public Lecture Visionary Religion and Revisionist Scholarship: Opening Remarks on the significance of the Early Recension of the Sukhavati Vyuha Sutra Lectures Wednesday, 4-5.30, Room G51 10 November Versions of Perfection: Excavating the Lower Strata of the Sukhavati Tradition 17 November Vocational Guidance: The Vows in the Larger Sukhavati Vyuha Sutra 24 November Heavenly Hierarchies:Social and Spriritual Distinctions in the Larger Sukhavati Vyuha 1 December Never the Twain Shall Meet: Female Rebirth in Sukhavati and Abhirati 8 December No Turning Back, No End in Sight:Non-Regression and Longevity as Themes in the Larger Sukhavati Vyuha Sutra 15 December Revisions of Perfection: Closing Remarks on the Changing Face of the Sukhavati Tradition Seminars Wednesdays, same dates as the lectures: 5.30-7pm The seminars will entail reading selected portions of the Sanskrit version of the Larger Sukhavati Vyuha Sutra in comparison with the corresponding sections in the Early Recension of that text, which is represented by (but not identical with either of) the two earliest Chinese translations, Taisho Nos. 361 & 362. The aim will be to follow up and clarify issues raised in the lectures in a more detailed fashion. Professor Harrison will be also available for academic consultations Dr. Ulrich Pagel Department of the Study of Religions School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG Great Britain tel: 0171 691 3349 (office) tel: 0171 713 0723 (home) fax: 0171 691 3349 e.mail: up1 at soas.ac.uk From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Oct 20 08:30:44 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 99 08:30:44 +0000 Subject: Indic Languages Message-ID: <161227052887.23782.1022420036331473825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel's recent article in EJVS on the overlay of languages is a path-breaking innovation indeed of using linguistics to establish chronology of ancient India. While detailed comments can be offered after a careful study of the brilliant and painstaking piece of work, I have one basic question which I should express at the outset. How can we date the words so precisely as, say, between 1900 and 1500 BCE? The dates could as well be between 5000 and 7000 BCE. The work of Witzel is certainly an eye-opener for relative chronology. The only firm dates available by other scientific techniques are: dating of the Sarasvati River waters from the deep wells in Jaisalmer (by Atomic scientists of BARC using tritium isotope analysis) to be between 4000 and 14000 years BP and the carbon 14 (MASCA corrected) for many of the thousands of sites located on the river banks of Sindhu and Sarasvati. (See the list of 2600 sites listed in Prof. Possehl's recent magnum opus). My decipherment of the script seems to indicate the inscriptions to be lists of bronze age weapons, as bills of lading and the language is Prakrit which seems to explain the rebus-based homonyms without resort to phonetic laws. I look forward to Web version URL of which will be cross-linked with the http://sarasvati.simplenet.com if Prof. Witzel permits. Thanking Prof. Witzel again and with the best regards. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 20 08:44:38 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 99 09:44:38 +0100 Subject: Sharada Script Translation In-Reply-To: <007d01bf1926$61dd2dc0$39ccaec7@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <161227052890.23782.5825081956407207836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See Walter Slaje, Sarada: deskriptiv-synchrone Schriftkunde zur Bearbeitung kaschmirischer Sanskrit-Manuskripte [Indische Schriften, Band 1] (Reinbek: Wezler, 1993). No PC fonts are known to me, though it wouldn't be hard to make them using METAFONT, working perhaps from one of the existing Devanagaris (Wikner or Velthuis). -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Oct 20 20:04:51 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 99 16:04:51 -0400 Subject: Indic Languages In-Reply-To: <19991020030044.14696.qmail@ww184.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227052893.23782.6880436493632329012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am pleased to be able to report that, thanks to the efforts of our assistant editor, M. Fushimi, the paper referred to by Dr. Kalyanaraman: >Prof. Witzel's recent article in EJVS on the overlay of languages is, as of today, available on our website http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/issues.html in various formats: in PDF (596kb) in DVI (395kb) in PS (1131kb) i.e., readable & printable with proper diacritics. As for Dr. Kalyanaraman's >basic question >which I should express at the outset. How can we date the words so precisely >as, say, between 1900 and 1500 BCE? The dates could as well be between 5000 >and 7000 BCE. That depends on the text you have in mind. As for the Rgveda, the best we can give is an appriximate age; I quote from the paper mentioned: " It may suffice to point out (Witzel 1987, 1989, 1995, 1999) that the Rgveda (RV) is a bronze age (pre-iron age) text of the Greater Panjab that follows the dissolution of the Indus civilization (at c. 1900 BCE) -- which limits its time frame to (maximally) c. 1900 -1200 BCE; the latter date is that of the earliest appearance of iron in the subcontinent" That period probably is a little too long, but there is no way, as of now, to set the upper limit in a more precise way. The first archaeologically attested horses & chariots in S. Asia would give a date ad quem. (First horses in S. Asia in the Kachi plain, on the Sindh/Balcuchi border, at 1700 BCE.) >The only firm dates available by other scientific techniques are: dating of >the Sarasvati River waters from the deep wells in Jaisalmer (by Atomic >scientists of BARC using tritium isotope analysis) to be between 4000 and >14000 years BP This is too early for a copper/bronze age text, with HORSES (c. 1700 BCE, Kachi Plains) and chariots (oldest c. 2000 BCE, Urals), such as the Rgveda.... > My decipherment of >the script seems to indicate the inscriptions to be lists of bronze age >weapons, as bills of lading and the language is Prakrit Well, the substrate languages in the area, from the time period of the Rgveda all are non-Vedic and pre- Old Indo-Aryan, i.e. from a period that is a long time before any Prakrit (middle Indo-Aryan )is attested... M. Witzel From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Oct 20 20:51:04 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 99 16:51:04 -0400 Subject: [David Ludden : please distribute this as widely as possible] Message-ID: <161227052895.23782.5672121807933425531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [[The following position announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the ACADEMIC POSITIONS section of SARAI (the WWW Virtual Library for South Asia). Please contact posters directly for any further info.]] The University of Pennsylvania seeks to appoint an Assistant Professor in South Asian studies. The search is conducted by a committee convened by the Dean of the School of Arts and Sciences and is composed of representatives from the departments of Anthropology, History, and South Asia Regional Studies. A candidate is being sought who has interest and expertise in cultural anthropology, social and cultural history, ethnohistory, or folklore; who can contribute to interdisciplinary programs; and who has advanced reading and speaking skills in a South Asian language. The tenure-track appointment will be made in a department most suitable to the candidate's expertise. To apply, send a cover letter and curriculum vitae to the South Asia Search Committee, Office of the Dean, School of Arts and Sciences, 116 College Hall, Philadelphia, Pa. 19104-6377 by December 1, 1999. The University of Pennsylvania is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer. =========================================== David Ludden History Department University of Pennsylvania 352B 3401 Walnut Street Philadelphia, PA 19104-6228 phone: 215-222-4277; fax 215-573-2089 homepage: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~dludden ============================================ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 21 00:30:31 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 99 17:30:31 -0700 Subject: Hindu numerals Message-ID: <161227052899.23782.2468686680315572369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The numerals that we use today, 1,2, ... are called Hindu numerals. Said to reach Europe via the Arabs. Are there any references, theses, etc., which compare the symbols of the numbers from different parts of India (epigraphy), the Arab authors' works describing the Hindu numerals, and those in Europe (eg., Durer, 1500 AD). Possibly, in the period 1000-1500 AD. Thanks for references, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rkkinra at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Oct 20 23:47:06 1999 From: rkkinra at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Rajeev Kinra) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 99 18:47:06 -0500 Subject: Indic Languages Message-ID: <161227052897.23782.11945757751134117915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the exact bibliographical information for Prof. Witzel's article? Or, if it's unpublished, how to obtain a copy? Thanks, Rajeev Kinra University of Chicago S.Kalyanaraman wrote: > > Prof. Witzel's recent article in EJVS on the overlay of languages is a > path-breaking innovation indeed of using linguistics to establish chronology > of ancient India. While detailed comments can be offered after a careful study > of the brilliant and painstaking piece of work, I have one basic question > which I should express at the outset. How can we date the words so precisely > as, say, between 1900 and 1500 BCE? The dates could as well be between 5000 > and 7000 BCE. The work of Witzel is certainly an eye-opener for relative > chronology. > > The only firm dates available by other scientific techniques are: dating of > the Sarasvati River waters from the deep wells in Jaisalmer (by Atomic > scientists of BARC using tritium isotope analysis) to be between 4000 and > 14000 years BP and the carbon 14 (MASCA corrected) for many of the thousands > of sites located on the river banks of Sindhu and Sarasvati. (See the list of > 2600 sites listed in Prof. Possehl's recent magnum opus). My decipherment of > the script seems to indicate the inscriptions to be lists of bronze age > weapons, as bills of lading and the language is Prakrit which seems to explain > the rebus-based homonyms without resort to phonetic laws. I look forward to > Web version URL of which will be cross-linked with the > http://sarasvati.simplenet.com if Prof. Witzel permits. Thanking Prof. Witzel > again and with the best regards. Kalyanaraman > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM Thu Oct 21 02:30:05 1999 From: cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 99 20:30:05 -0600 Subject: norman and normyn scripts Message-ID: <161227052903.23782.13759427359163184303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members. Does anyone know a web site location to download the norman and normyn scripts? B. Fleming From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Oct 21 02:00:43 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 99 22:00:43 -0400 Subject: Punjab place names Message-ID: <161227052901.23782.7530380470188582699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his book "Lahore: Its history, Architectural Remains and Antiquities", 1892, pp. 1-3, Syad Muhammad Latif says the following: < The mythical founder of lohAwar, or Lahore, was Lov or Loh, one of the two sons of rAmA, the hero of the famous epic-loom the ramayanA, the other son, kash, having, according to the same tradition, founded the sister town of kusAwar, or kasUr... In the deshwa bhAgA,... Lahore is called lavpor... Turning to the Mahomedan period,...fatuhUl baldin, believed to be one of the earliest Arabic Chronicles, ...calls Lahore by the name of AlahwAr. ...al-idrisi..writing in the ninth century, calls it lohAwar. The termination ?awar is a corruption of the Sanskrit word awarna, meaning fort, and is affixed to many Indian towns, such as sanAwar, bijAwar, peshAwar... abu rehAn al-biruni, in his celebrated work, the kanAn, speaking from his personal knowledge of the country at the time of mahmud?s invasion, towards the close of the tenth century, mentions, in his description of the Himalayan mountains that "they can be seen from tacas (taxila?) and lahAwar (Lahore)." M. Reinaud, in his Fragments, and Elliot, read it as lauhaour, lohAovar, lohArU, and lahor. amir khusrow, of Delhi, writing in the latter part of the thirteenth century, calls it lahanUr in his well-known work the kirAnus-sa?den. He says:- "From the confines of samania to lahanUr, There is no walled (city) but kasUr." Mr. Thornton suggests that lahanUr is corruption of luhanagar, nUr being the Dakhani form of nagar, as appears from the names of other towns, such as Kalanore, Kananore, &c. Rashid-ud-din, in his jAmiut tawarikh, completed in A.H. 710, or A.D. 1310, calls it lahUr, "than which," he says, "there is no stronger fort." al biruni also mentions Lahore as a Province, the capital of which was "mandhukur", on the east of the river irAwA (ravi). baihanki calls it "mandkakUr". Lahore is also called by the Mahomedan historians lohAr, loher, and rAhwar...> What was the original name of Lahore? Can anybody identify the towns Kalanore, and Kananore? I know many names in South India ending in -nUr where -n- and -Ur are not from nagar. Ur means a town, village, etc. How are the names, lahanUr, kasUr, mandkakUr, etc., explained etymologically? Are there any more town or village names in the Punjab region (in India and Pakistan) ending in -Ur? Thanks. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Oct 21 04:15:42 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 00:15:42 -0400 Subject: Punjab place names Message-ID: <161227052907.23782.3845513370465833009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 99-10-20 23:55:58 EDT, you write: > I verified and found 38 village names in Punjab with ends with the 'string' > UR. When we exclude PUR ending names (for obvious Indo-Aryan etymology) we > come across 15 names like Kalanaur(twice in Gurdaspur district) > Phillaur(twice in Jalandhar) Balachaur(twice in Hosiarpur) Ghanaur > (twice,Patiala)and Sangrur(4,Sangrurdistrict).AUR as dysyllabic placename > occurs twice in Jalandhar. Whether Kalanaur, Phillaur etc are the > combination of prefix+Aur as suffix has to be verified. Then Sangrur remains > unexplained. Besides in Punjab there are 8 placenames with UR as Prefix.e.g: > URNA,URANG,URMAR,URDHAN. > > In Haryana similarly Radaur(2) Ganaur(4),Kalanaur(4) Phillaur(3), > Balachaur(3),Ghanaur(2)Sangrur(2) occur. AUR alone as a placename occurs > twice. There are 14 instances of UR as prefix.e.g: Urnai, Urjani, Urdan etc. > Are any of these names ending in -Ur (with long U)? > As regard with Dravidian UR occuring in Pakistan and Indian context- there > are many seemingly Dravidian placenames in currency in these areas. If > interested I can post to indology. Please post such names particularly with respect to the Punjab region. Thanks. Regards S. Palaniappan From ebashir at UMICH.EDU Thu Oct 21 12:51:13 1999 From: ebashir at UMICH.EDU (E. Bashir) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 08:51:13 -0400 Subject: 6th Himalayan Languages Symposium (fwd) Message-ID: <161227052916.23782.3522923906634789687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, There follows an announcement of the 6th Himalayan Languages Symposium, originally sent by Michael Noonan at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. ************************************************************************** Elena Bashir, Ph.D. 3070 Frieze Bldg. Lecturer in Urdu and Hindi The University of Michigan Dept. of Asian Languages and Cultures Ann Arbor, MI 48109 Phone: 734-763-9178 Dept. Phone: 734-764-8286 (messages only) Fax: 734-647-0157 ************************************************************************** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 14:16:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael Noonan To: E. Bashir Subject: Re: 6th Himalayan Languages Symposium Michael Noonan Professor of Linguistics Chair Office: 414-229-4539 Dept. of English Fax: 414-229-2643 University of Wisconsin Messages: 414-229-4511 Milwaukee, WI 53201 Webpage: http://www.uwm.edu/~noonan USA CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT: 6th HIMALAYAN LANGUAGES SYMPOSIUM University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee June 15-17, 2000 Papers at the 6th Himalayan Languages Symposium may report the results of scholarly research on any subject pertaining to the Himalayan languages and Himalayan language communities. Possible topics include: + descriptions of previously undescribed languages + linguistic analyses of phonetic, phono-logical and grammatical phenomena + comparative studies & historical reconstruction + Himalayan languages in typological perspective + language planning + the economic and cultural aspects of language preservation and language death + sociocultural aspect of borrowing + 'secret' languages + grammar & pragmatics of honorific speech + sociolinguistic & ethnolinguistic analyses + historical and archaeological findings relating to the prehistory of Himalayan language communities Workshops to promote dialog between Himalayanists and typologists will be organized by: Matthew Dryer, SUNY-Buffalo David Gil, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology Ian Maddieson, UCLA SUBMISSION GUIDELINES The deadline for submission of abstracts is Feb. 1, 2000. Notifications of acceptance will sent out by March 1, 2000. Abstracts should be no longer than one page and should be of camera-ready quality. The author's name and affiliation should appear below the title of the paper. On a separate piece of paper, include mailing and email addresses. REGISTRATION Preregistration: $40 for faculty, $20 for students and non-academics; registration at the conference: $45 for faculty, $25 for students and non-academics. ADDRESS AND CONTACT INFORMATION Address abstracts, registration fees, and inquiries to: Michael Noonan Himalayan Languages Symposium Dept. of English University of Wisconsin Milwaukee, WI 53201 USA noonan at uwm.edu fax: 414-229-2643 phone: 414-229-4511 ABOUT THE SYMPOSIUM The Himalayan Languages Symposium is an open international forum where scholars can exchange the results of their research with others working on related issues in the same geographical area. The term 'Himalayan' is used in its broad sense to include north-western and north-eastern India, where languages of Indo-Aryan, Dravidian, Tibeto-Burman, and Austro-Asiatic linguistic stocks are spoken; the languages of Nepal, Bhutan and the Tibetan Plateau; the languages of northern Burma and Sichuan; and the languages of Nuristan, Baltistan and the Burushaski speaking area in the west. The term 'Languages' is used instead of 'Linguistics' to broaden the scope of the Symposium beyond linguistics proper so as to allow scholars working on language issues in the related disciplines of anthropology, philology, and archaeology to present their research wherever this is directly relevant to our understanding of Himalayan languages and language communities. The Permanent Secretariat for this annual Symposium is maintained at Leiden University in the Netherlands. Previously, the Himalayan Languages Symposium has been convened in Leiden, Noordwijkerhout [the Netherlands], Santa Barbara [California], Pune [India], and Kathmandu. 6th HIMALAYAN LANGUAGES SYMPOSIUM The 6th Himalayan Languages Symposium will be held on the campus of the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, situated near Lake Michigan in Milwaukee's Upper East Side. Milwaukee is pleasantly warm in June. More details regarding the venue, accommodations, and travel will be sent out to those who respond to this circular. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 21 16:00:23 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 09:00:23 -0700 Subject: Ency. of Science, ... in Non-Western Cultures Message-ID: <161227052924.23782.7019790705370031851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone here give the titles of entries related to India in: Helen Selin (ed.), Encyclopaedia of Science, Technology and Medicine in Non-Western cultures, Dordrecht/London: Kluwer Academic, 1997 please? Thanks, SM ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Oct 21 13:15:49 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 09:15:49 -0400 Subject: SARAI: Position announcement Message-ID: <161227052918.23782.15211041559320529631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [[The following position announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the ACADEMIC POSITIONS section of SARAI. Please contact the posters directly as below, for any further information.]] ------------------------------------------------------ South Asian and Comparative Literatures The Program in Comparative Literature, the Department of Linguistics, and the Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, are seeking a Visiting Assistant Professor in South Asian and Comparative Literatures. Appointment effective January 1, 2000; this position may become permanent. A completed doctorate in hand by the appointment date, good evidence of strong scholarly potential, and relevant teaching experience are required. The primary focus of the position is on Hindi literature; candidates are expected to have additional expertise in one or more other major South-Asian literary traditions. Candidates should be prepared to teach introductory comparative literature courses in Asian and World literatures, and advanced undergraduate and graduate courses in the literatures of specialization and in comparative literature. Salary dependent on experience and qualifications. For full consideration, send a letter of application, curriculum vitae, and three letters of reference by November 1, 1999 to Chair, South Asian Literature Search, Program in Comparative Literature, University of Illinois, 707 S. Mathews, Urbana, IL 61801. Tel. (217) 333-4987. Minorities, women, and other designated class members are encouraged to apply. The University of Illinois is an AA-EOE. Hans Henrich Hock Professor of Linguistics and Sanskrit Linguistics, 4088 FLB MC-168, University of Illinois 707 S. Mathews, Urbana IL 61801-3652 telephone: (217) 333-0357 or 333-3563 (messages) e-mail: hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu fax: (217) 333-3466 From balakrishnanraju at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 21 09:25:04 1999 From: balakrishnanraju at HOTMAIL.COM (balakrishnan raju) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 09:25:04 +0000 Subject: Punjab place names Message-ID: <161227052905.23782.12654746534047561958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Punjab place names >Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:00:43 EDT >Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >In his book "Lahore: Its history, Architectural Remains and Antiquities", >1892, pp. 1-3, Syad Muhammad Latif says the following: > >< The mythical founder of lohAwar, or Lahore, was Lov or Loh, one of the >two >sons of rAmA, the hero of the famous epic-loom the ramayanA, the other son, >kash, having, according to the same tradition, founded the sister town of >kusAwar, or kasUr... > >In the deshwa bhAgA,... Lahore is called lavpor... > >Turning to the Mahomedan period,...fatuhUl baldin, believed to be one of >the >earliest Arabic Chronicles, ...calls Lahore by the name of AlahwAr. > >...al-idrisi..writing in the ninth century, calls it lohAwar. The >termination >?awar is a corruption of the Sanskrit word awarna, meaning fort, and is >affixed to many Indian towns, such as sanAwar, bijAwar, peshAwar... > >abu rehAn al-biruni, in his celebrated work, the kanAn, speaking from his >personal knowledge of the country at the time of mahmud?s invasion, towards >the close of the tenth century, mentions, in his description of the >Himalayan >mountains that "they can be seen from tacas (taxila?) and lahAwar >(Lahore)." >M. Reinaud, in his Fragments, and Elliot, read it as lauhaour, lohAovar, >lohArU, and lahor. > >amir khusrow, of Delhi, writing in the latter part of the thirteenth >century, >calls it lahanUr in his well-known work the kirAnus-sa?den. He says:- >"From the confines of samania to lahanUr, >There is no walled (city) but kasUr." > >Mr. Thornton suggests that lahanUr is corruption of luhanagar, nUr being >the >Dakhani form of nagar, as appears from the names of other towns, such as >Kalanore, Kananore, &c. > >Rashid-ud-din, in his jAmiut tawarikh, completed in A.H. 710, or A.D. 1310, >calls it lahUr, "than which," he says, "there is no stronger fort." > >al biruni also mentions Lahore as a Province, the capital of which was >"mandhukur", on the east of the river irAwA (ravi). baihanki calls it >"mandkakUr". > >Lahore is also called by the Mahomedan historians lohAr, loher, and >rAhwar...> > >What was the original name of Lahore? > >Can anybody identify the towns Kalanore, and Kananore? I know many names in >South India ending in -nUr where -n- and -Ur are not from nagar. Ur means a >town, village, etc. > >How are the names, lahanUr, kasUr, mandkakUr, etc., explained >etymologically? >Are there any more town or village names in the Punjab region (in India and >Pakistan) ending in -Ur? Thanks. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan >My repose to the above is as follow: I verified and found 38 village names in Punjab with ends with the 'string' UR. When we exclude PUR ending names (for obvious Indo-Aryan etymology) we come across 15 names like Kalanaur(twice in Gurdaspur district) Phillaur(twice in Jalandhar) Balachaur(twice in Hosiarpur) Ghanaur (twice,Patiala)and Sangrur(4,Sangrurdistrict).AUR as dysyllabic placename occurs twice in Jalandhar. Whether Kalanaur, Phillaur etc are the combination of prefix+Aur as suffix has to be verified. Then Sangrur remains unexplained. Besides in Punjab there are 8 placenames with UR as Prefix.e.g: URNA,URANG,URMAR,URDHAN. In Haryana similarly Radaur(2) Ganaur(4),Kalanaur(4) Phillaur(3), Balachaur(3),Ghanaur(2)Sangrur(2) occur. AUR alone as a placename occurs twice. There are 14 instances of UR as prefix.e.g: Urnai, Urjani, Urdan etc. As regard with Dravidian UR occuring in Pakistan and Indian context- there are many seemingly Dravidian placenames in currency in these areas. If interested I can post to indology. UR as a place name component is found in Iraq region Regards. R.Balakrishnan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK Thu Oct 21 08:41:20 1999 From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 09:41:20 +0100 Subject: norman and normyn scripts In-Reply-To: <001301bf1b6c$30d5d040$88334818@y9c1e6> Message-ID: <161227052909.23782.5337709239692558349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 20 Oct 1999, Benjamin Fleming wrote: > Dear list members. > > Does anyone know a web site location to download the norman and normyn > scripts? As far as I know, the original Norman and Normyn fonts are no longer available anywhere. However, fully-compatible fonts called Times Norman are available (and are anyway of higher quality than the originals): go to http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk and follow the "fonts" link. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 21 10:54:23 1999 From: se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (. .) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 10:54:23 +0000 Subject: When was "the Agastya Samhita" written? Message-ID: <161227052911.23782.10561888599829534598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone please enlighten me? Any educated guess!!!! Thanx/Kailash Srivastava ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ghatak at ENGR.ORST.EDU Thu Oct 21 18:54:12 1999 From: ghatak at ENGR.ORST.EDU (Kalyan Brata Ghatak) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 11:54:12 -0700 Subject: Kautliya's "Arthashastra" In-Reply-To: <007701bf1be9$211334e0$0f33893e@default> Message-ID: <161227052928.23782.15357757477706365767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Is the original version of Kautliya's "Arthashastra' or its English Translation available online? Regards Kalyan B. Ghatak From jim at RAWLINGSFARM.DEMON.CO.UK Thu Oct 21 11:06:47 1999 From: jim at RAWLINGSFARM.DEMON.CO.UK (James Mallinson) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 12:06:47 +0100 Subject: When was "the Agastya Samhita" written? Message-ID: <161227052913.23782.1481079616209308415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hans Bakker in his AyodhyA (Egbert Forsten, Groningen, 1986, pp. 68-70) reckons it to have been composed in 12th century (CE) Benares. ---------- >From: ". ." >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: When was "the Agastya Samhita" written? >Date: Thu, Oct 21, 1999, 11:54 am > >Could anyone please enlighten me? Any educated guess!!!! > >Thanx/Kailash Srivastava > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 21 22:04:08 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 15:04:08 -0700 Subject: Punjab place names Message-ID: <161227052930.23782.10554917930765626350.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While settlement name endings with -Ur are highly important from Punjab toponymy, I wonder whether "Urnai" as the place where Sarasvati river meets another river has something to do with ta. UruNi, "a place where the village gets water from/ public drinking water tank in a village or town". B. C. Law, Mountains and Rivers of India, 1968, p. 195, "In the SiddhAnta-ziromaNi (Golaadhyaaya, bhuvanakoSa), the SarasvatI is correctly described as a river, which is visible in one place and invisisble in another. It disappears for a time in the sand near the village of Chalaur and reappears at Bhavanipur. At BAlchchApar it again disppears, but appears again at Bara Kera; at *Urnai* near Pehoa, it is joined by the MarkaNDa, .." Francois Gautier, a supporter for the Indigenous Aryan hypothesis, writes in his article "Sonia Gandhi and the great Aryan myth" in The Indian Express newspaper on Sep. 27, 1999: "For a long time, the Sarasvati river was indeed considered a myth, until the American satellite Landstat was able to photograph and map the bed of this magnificient river, which was nearly 14 km wide and took its source in the Himalayas. Archaeologist Paul-Henri Francfort, who studied the Sarasvati region at the beginning of the Nineties, found out the Sarasvati had "disappeared", because around 2200 B.C., an immense drought reduced the whole region to aridity and famine. "Thus", he writes, "most inhabitants moved away from the Saraswati to settle on the banks of the Indus and Sutlej rivers." " Are Urnai on Sarasvati riverbed and Dravidian uuru.ni related? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dianam.aao at URM.LT Fri Oct 22 00:03:56 1999 From: dianam.aao at URM.LT (Diana Mickeviciene) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 17:03:56 -0700 Subject: books on Indo-Aryans Message-ID: <161227052921.23782.6300284654022419742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anybody inform me about the two books by Edwin Bryant on I-A debate (anounced on this list on Sept. 10). Are they already available? How to order From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Oct 21 17:23:33 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 18:23:33 +0100 Subject: Indic Languages Message-ID: <161227052926.23782.4060804264783421626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have just finished a preliminary read of Prof. Witzel's recent EJVS article. I find his theories quite plausible and exciting in their implications. However, I wonder how many linguist working in this area also make use of genetic data ? India as a whole has been fairly well studied genetically and interesting results ahve been derived. A good starting point could be the Cavelli-Sforza massive "History and Geography of the Human Gene". One thing that emerges, I think, is that it reminds us that languages and their speakers may well have seperate origins due to population political hegemony, intermixing and so forth. According to the data in Cavelli-Sforza there are the following main groupings in India based on 28 population groups: 1. A big separation between Kerala Kadar against all the others, then 2. A big separation between Gukha + Tharu against the remainder, then 3. A big separation between Kanet + Uttar Pradesh Brahmins, then 4. A large group which divides into sub-groups with smaller genetic difference as follows: i) Munda + North Dravidian also close to Central Dravian (Telegu Brahimins, Chenchen, Konda, Kolami, Naiki etc). A little more distant are Maratha, Maharashtra Brahmins, Bhils, Rajbanshi, also close to Parsis and West Bengal Brahmins. ii) a separate group which divides into a) Lambada and South Dravidian, Sinhalese and b) more distantly a large group which comprises Punjabi, Central Indic, Punjab Brahmin, Rajputs in one sub-group and Vania Soni, Jats, Bombay Brahmins. A outlier sub-group to these two includes Koli + Kerala Brahmins and Pakistani There is further data about Himalayan & Tibeto-Burman people that is interesting. Though a popluar book, there is the recent Eden in the East by the geneticist Stephen Oppenheimer. He argues for a major Austro-asiatic cultural and ethnic dispersion from the now submerged Sunda Shelf at around 7000 BCE, using lingusitic, genetic, archeological and mythological data. It is known archeologically, that these people may well have been the most advanced Neolithic culture at that time. Ceratinly, its inhabitants were making enrormous sea journeys at a very early date: witness the discovery of Jomon Japanese pottery thousands of miles away in Fiji dated to 6000 BCE. Since he points out that there are specific genetic markers associated with people in the region that are also found as far away as the Indus Valley region, the heartlands of Sumer, as well as up into Eastern Tibet, this may be corroborative data towards the identity of the Indian substrate. Also some will be familar with the huge word list compiled by Paul Manansala on his website giving what are apparent cognates between Indic languages including Sanskrit and Austronesian languages: they should be taken into consideration. Some of these will no doubt be accidental but much useful research could be generated by a consideration of this data. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Oct 21 23:26:00 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 19:26:00 -0400 Subject: address? Message-ID: <161227052932.23782.9443048665147377813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Deoes anyone know the email and/or snali-mail address for Professor Hartmut Scharfe in Los Angeles? Thanks. Madhav Deshpande From richard_quick at QUICK2001.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Oct 21 23:46:49 1999 From: richard_quick at QUICK2001.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Richard Quick) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 00:46:49 +0100 Subject: Hindu numerals Message-ID: <161227052934.23782.1101529266676867375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Try Georges Ifrah - 'Histoire Universelle des Chiffres' - Published in England as 'The Universal History of the Numbers' (ISBN 1-86046-324-x)- this has tables of numerals in lots of Indic languages. Karl Menninger - 'Zahlwort und Ziffer' - English ed. 'Number Words and Number Symbols : a cultural history'(ISBN 0486270963) Smith and Karpinski - 'The Hindu Arabic Numerals' - Ginn, 1911 Datta and Singh - History of Hindu Mathematics - Asia Publishing House, 1933? Encyclopedia of Islam You might also find something about the period 1000-1500 AD, or at least some references in- Allard, A. (1991) The Arabic origins and development of Latin Algorisms in the Twelfth Century - in Arabic Sciences & Philosophy 1991 Vol. 1 pp.232- 283 From BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA Fri Oct 22 10:56:15 1999 From: BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (GHOSE,LYNKEN,MR) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 06:56:15 -0400 Subject: Harmut Scharfe's address Message-ID: <161227052939.23782.14035160453650884428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor Deshpande: I have this adddress for Harmut Scharfe - Harmut Scharfe University of California Department of East Asian Languages and Cultures 405 Hilgard Ave. Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 Lynken Ghose McGill University From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 22 14:06:22 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 07:06:22 -0700 Subject: Sindu river name Message-ID: <161227052944.23782.3038256091264446088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> G. Erdosy's edited volume, The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia, p. 270, Prof. F. C. Southworth writes: "the PDr-1 word for "date", *kIntu/cIntu, which shows a close simililarity to the proto-Bantu *mukindu "wild date palm" (Nurse 1983:142) [17]" [...] "[17] Dates were known in the Indus valley (Vats 1940: 467; Marshall 1931: 27,587), and the region of Sindh is well-known for this fruit. Once again, this evidence suggests a link between early Dravidians and the Indus valley. (See further discussion in Ratnagar 1980:80.) I have suggested elsewhere that the very name for the region of Sindh, and the original name of the Indus river (OIA sindhu-, which lacks any other plausible etymology), may be connected with this Dravidian word for "date" (Southworth forthcoming[b]." Franklin Southworth, Linguistic Archaeology of the South Asian subcontinent, [fothcoming.] Is this book published or in print? How to order? Thanks for your help, SM ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 22 14:32:06 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 07:32:06 -0700 Subject: Sindu river name Message-ID: <161227052946.23782.3563601183524434153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > I have suggested elsewhere that the very name for > the region of Sindh, and > the original name of the Indus river (OIA sindhu-, > which lacks any other > plausible etymology), may be connected with this > Dravidian word for "date" > (Southworth forthcoming[b]." > Another etymology of interest for sindhu is Burushaski Sinda "water". cf J. Harmatta in "Archaeology of South Asia", 1989. Also, M Witzel in Indology archives. Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 22 15:26:50 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 08:26:50 -0700 Subject: Sindu river name Message-ID: <161227052950.23782.11399579098081635436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From Online Tamil Lexicon: malaiyIntu = malai+ Intu (mountain date) ciRRIntu = ciRu + Intu (small date fruit) Also, IJcu, Iccam all stand for Intu (date fruit) in tamil. "Intu", spoken out as "Indu", Tamil has a tendency to drop out initial "c" or "s". (ceTTi > eTTi etc.,) Dravidians might have named the region with lots of date trees as cIntu (>skt. sindhu), the river that flows thru' Sindh is also called Sindu. Taking Sindhu river, Burushaski could have come up with "sinda" to mean water?? --- Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: > Turner, CDIAL # 13415 mentions the Burushaski word but regards it as a loan > into Burushaski. The Dardic languages generally have sin, si-n, si-nd, send > for 'river'. Prof. Witzel, have you any comment? > > With best wishes, > > Ruth Schmidt ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From HWW-GR at T-ONLINE.DE Fri Oct 22 10:51:31 1999 From: HWW-GR at T-ONLINE.DE (Heinz Werner Wessler) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 12:51:31 +0200 Subject: address? Message-ID: <161227052936.23782.8822597738977186582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know an e-mail address of Dr. Milos Mendel or Dr. Blahuslav Hruska in Prague? Many thanks in advance, HWW Dr.Heinz Werner Wessler Bergstr. 27A D-53844 Troisdorf Tel./Fax: +49-228-455125 From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ Fri Oct 22 12:26:30 1999 From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 13:26:30 +0100 Subject: address? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052941.23782.1511035402314423919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:51 22.10.1999 +0200, you wrote: >Does anyone know an e-mail address of Dr. Milos Mendel or Dr. Blahuslav Hruska >in Prague? > Both of them are my colleagues in the Oriental Institute of the Czech Academy of Sciences (see the snail-mail address below). Their e-mail addresses are mendel at orient.cas.cz hruska at orient.cas.cz Regards, J. Filipsky Jan Filipsky, PhD. Oriental Institute Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8 The Czech Republic phone ++4202/6605 3729 home: U Pentlovky 466/7, 181 00 Praha 8 phone ++4202/855 74 53 From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Oct 22 14:00:24 1999 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 17:00:24 +0300 Subject: Sindu river name In-Reply-To: <19991022143206.10190.rocketmail@web112.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227052948.23782.2322552468772092317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Turner, CDIAL # 13415 mentions the Burushaski word but regards it as a loan into Burushaski. The Dardic languages generally have sin, si-n, si-nd, send for 'river'. Prof. Witzel, have you any comment? With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt > >> I have suggested elsewhere that the very name for >> the region of Sindh, and >> the original name of the Indus river (OIA sindhu-, >> which lacks any other >> plausible etymology), may be connected with this >> Dravidian word for "date" >> (Southworth forthcoming[b]." >> > >Another etymology of interest for sindhu is Burushaski >Sinda "water". cf J. Harmatta in "Archaeology of South >Asia", 1989. Also, M Witzel in Indology archives. *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Oct 23 01:28:40 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 21:28:40 -0400 Subject: Buddhist Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <000b01bf1cf5$85ef9720$d12f893e@default> Message-ID: <161227052961.23782.3528530717171204939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You are probably looking for Boris Oguibenine's book: Initiation Pratique : A l'Edude du Sanskrit Bouddhique. This was published in Paris in 1996 by Picard Editeur, 82, rue Bonaparte 75006, Paris (ISBN 2-7084-0487-3). Sorry, can't put French accents on my email. Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 23 Oct 1999, Stephen Hodge wrote: > About three years ago somebody showed me what was then a new book in > French on Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit combining a reader and grammar, I > think. Does any know this book ? Could I have the details if they > are to hand ? > > Many thanks, > Stephen Hodge > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Oct 22 22:44:41 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 23:44:41 +0100 Subject: Hindu numerals In-Reply-To: <19991021003034.74386.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227052954.23782.4999609989223546432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There's a marvellous book by Georges Ifrah, The Universal History of Numbers, which would meet your need admirably, I think. Wonderful, detailed romp through the subject. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Oct 22 22:46:42 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 23:46:42 +0100 Subject: Ency. of Science, ... in Non-Western Cultures In-Reply-To: <19991021160023.23978.rocketmail@web306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227052956.23782.10966188203602079464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Can someone here give the titles of entries related to India in: > Helen Selin (ed.), Encyclopaedia of Science, Technology and > Medicine in Non-Western cultures, Dordrecht/London: Kluwer Academic, > 1997 please? There are too many entries to list. The book gives a lot of information, but the quality is uneven. Good on math, poorer on medicine, etc. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From mlbd at VSNL.COM Fri Oct 22 18:28:24 1999 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass Publishers) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 23:58:24 +0530 Subject: Kautliya's "Arthashastra" Message-ID: <161227052952.23782.15029307988343529576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: Kalyan Brata Ghatak To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 12:24 AM Subject: Kautliya's "Arthashastra" > Hi > > Is the original version of Kautliya's "Arthashastra' or its English > Translation available online? > > > Regards > > Kalyan B. Ghatak > DEAR SIR, THE ABOVE BOOKS IS AVAILABLE BOTH IN TEXT AND TRANSLATION IN THREE VOLS. BY DR.KANGLE INCASE YOU REQUIRE THE SAME THEN PLEASE DO LET US KNOW SO THAT WE MAY QUOTE YOU THE PRICE. SINCERELY, RAJEEV JAIN From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Oct 23 01:25:07 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 99 02:25:07 +0100 Subject: Buddhist Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227052959.23782.4554475899245124248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About three years ago somebody showed me what was then a new book in French on Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit combining a reader and grammar, I think. Does any know this book ? Could I have the details if they are to hand ? Many thanks, Stephen Hodge From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 23 14:01:47 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 99 07:01:47 -0700 Subject: Sindu river name Message-ID: <161227052963.23782.38035770650451640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Turner, CDIAL # 13415 mentions the Burushaski word but regards it as a loan >into Burushaski. The Dardic languages generally have sin, si-n, si-nd, send >for 'river'. Prof. Witzel, have you any comment? On the clay tablets from ancient Mesopotamia: Prof. Witzel, Substrate languages in OIA, EJVS, 1999, p.24 "There are men with Melu.h.ha as a personal name, thus apparently the Melu.h.han, several persons, among them Urkal and Ur-dlama are called the 'son of Meluhha' [...] In total, there are some 40 "Indian" words transmitted to ancient Mesopotamia, some of which may have been coined by Dilmun (Bahrain) traders. They include: Sindh wood sinda (si-in-da-a, si-in-du), date palm, the 'red dog of Meluhha', zaza cattle (zebu?), elephants etc., (cf. Landsberger, Die Welt des Orients, 3, 261, Possehl 1996a)" The "Ur" in Urkal and Ur-dlama are interesting. Are the si-in-du (compare ta. iindu = date palm) and the date palm one and the same? If true, sindu's meaning is the date tree even during that hoary past! River names with peNNA (ta. peNNai = palm tree) which later are sanskritized as vENA/vENI have also been named on the pattern like siindu (date palm) river. It is significant that the Hindu deity for agriculture, balarAma/samkarSaNa holds a palm tree (date palm?/palmyra?) and a goblet to drink palm toddy in iconography/literature. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vkdhar at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Oct 23 21:50:11 1999 From: vkdhar at IX.NETCOM.COM (Vijay K. Dhar) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 99 14:50:11 -0700 Subject: Sharada Script Translation Message-ID: <161227052968.23782.200300446657772227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Wujastyk Thank you for the information about Sharada script. I wasn't sure where to find this text but I searched your archive and found Dr. Slaje who knew the address of Dr. Wezler and I will get the text from him. For your other members, I was also able to find some historical reference and information from the following website also: http://jammu-kashmir.org/KOA/Languages/ . Thank you for your help, Vijay K. Dhar KSF ----- Original Message ----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 1:44 AM Subject: Re: Sharada Script Translation > See > Walter Slaje, Sarada: deskriptiv-synchrone Schriftkunde zur > Bearbeitung kaschmirischer Sanskrit-Manuskripte [Indische Schriften, Band > 1] (Reinbek: Wezler, 1993). > > No PC fonts are known to me, though it wouldn't be hard to make them using > METAFONT, working perhaps from one of the existing Devanagaris (Wikner or > Velthuis). > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Oct 23 15:53:28 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 99 16:53:28 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY's Message-ID: <161227052964.23782.9188550258274916282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The hit counter for the INDOLOGY website has just passed one lakh! -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Oct 23 17:29:50 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 99 18:29:50 +0100 Subject: buddhist sanskrit Message-ID: <161227052966.23782.17959662378470851490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank all those who were kind enough to come up with the details of the book I was looking for. I am sorry nobody could come up with any suggestions for an earlier enquiry I made about learning Classical Tamil. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Oct 23 22:32:45 1999 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 99 18:32:45 -0400 Subject: books on Indo-Aryans In-Reply-To: <380FA9EC.5C46@urm.lt> Message-ID: <161227052969.23782.3007950577649810241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, Diana Mickeviciene wrote: > Could anybody inform me about the two books by Edwin Bryant on I-A > debate (anounced on this list on Sept. 10). Are they already available? > How to order Neither book is likely to be available till next year. I am awaiting the return of my ms from OUP's editors, and we are still waiting several papers for the Curzon edited vol which has yet to be submitted to their editors. The info is as follows: Bryant, Edwin. In Quest of the Origins of Vedic Culture: The Indo-Aryan Inavsion Debate New YOrk: Oxford U. Press, in press. --- and Patton, Laurie. The Indo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and Inference in Indian History. Richmond: Curzon Press, forthcoming. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Oct 24 08:36:07 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 99 09:36:07 +0100 Subject: Sindu river name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227052978.23782.6968257489974691967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all for the various inquiries/discussions on SINDHU... The matter is,as usual, complex. However, as I am about to leave town now for the Intl. Vedic Conference in Kyoto, I will be able to reply in detail only after my return. Quickly from memory, a small note only: - Sindhu has a good IE etymology (Thieme), see Mayrhofer, Etym. Worterbuch des Altindoarischen (and an OLD counterpart in Iranian: Avestan h at ndu 'border river/ocean at the end of the world'; O. Persian Hi(n)du / Handu= non-Gandhara Pakistan area ) - But Bur. sende etc. has its counterparts, too, also west of the Bur. area * in the Tedzhen (Murgh-ab River) on the border of Turkmenistan/Afghanistan, which the Greek transmit as Sindes river (even then, NOT in the Iran. form Hindu-!) * in the Sindoi tribe in the Kuban area north of the Caucasus (Greek sources); given the putative links of Bur. with NE Caucasian, this needs to be revisited (Negatively, comme l'habitude, on both: Mayrhofer, Ausgewahlte Kl. Schriften) - There are Sumerian/Mesopotamian sources which know of wood etc. from the Meluhha (Sind/Baluchistan) area as sinda, sindu etc. - the PMunda word for 'date' is similar to that of mu-kindu in P.Bantu. Apparently an old word for date. Note that *kindu is *old* to deliver a Mesop. sind-, as Drav. change *k > c (s) is only later... Whether sind- 'date' is also at the bottom of the name for Sindh (Meluhha) is another question. Fruits can also be called after the country (peach, Persicum the "Persian apple") . Nothing against dates, but we had a similar discussion on S. Indian river names and palm trees before... In short, we have a local "Pakistani" word (from Hunza to Sindh) , *sind/send- which has been taken over into various South Asian languages. Sanskritized as Sindhu, and from there into various other S. Asian languages... (note that there already was an Indo-Iranian *sindhu > Avestan etc . h at ndu) with IE root, thus *before* IIr/IA languages entered S. Asia... (Some connect also Irish: Shannon etc. ) The connection of Bur./ Dardic sende/sin etc. with the Bur. word for 'water', c.hil, is in need investigation (Berger, long ago, 1959?) And, any NE Caucasian (or Kartvelian) connections? None in the recent discussion in Mother Tongue I (1995) as far as I remember (only *hur); see MT I, via www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/aslip.html With thanks, Yours M. Witzel At 17:00 +0300 10/22/99, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: >Turner, CDIAL # 13415 mentions the Burushaski word but regards it as a loan >into Burushaski. The Dardic languages generally have sin, si-n, si-nd, send >for 'river'. Prof. Witzel, have you any comment? > ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Oct 24 08:44:07 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 99 09:44:07 +0100 Subject: Indic Languages In-Reply-To: <007701bf1be9$211334e0$0f33893e@default> Message-ID: <161227052976.23782.13974590995127383162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:23 +0100 10/21/99, Stephen Hodge wrote: >However, I wonder how many linguist working in this area also make use >of genetic data ? >According to the data in Cavelli-Sforza there are the following main >groupings in India based on 28 population groups: > >1. A big separation between Kerala Kadar against all the others, >then >2. A big separation between Gukha + Tharu against the remainder, >then Yes,I use such data. The Tharus are of importance as they are genetically protected against malaria, unlike other "Indians", and as the language substrate in Tharu is unconnected with pother lang. families... See EJVS (below) or a forthcoming version in "Mother Tongue" (of the Assoc. for the study of language in prehistory; membership & journal only $ 25 per year: see their website at: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/aslip.html >3. A big separation between Kanet + Uttar Pradesh Brahmins, then >Ceratinly, its inhabitants were making enrormous sea journeys at a >very early date: witness the discovery of Jomon Japanese pottery >thousands of miles away in Fiji dated to 6000 BCE. And in Ecuador... >the huge word list compiled by Paul >Manansala on his website giving what are apparent cognates between >Indic languages including Sanskrit and Austronesian languages: they >should be taken into consideration. Some of these will no doubt be >accidental Unfortunately a big hotchpotch of Austrones., clearly Indo-European (as Austr.!) , and many other families... Needs critical evaluation. More later... MW> ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From SE224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 24 08:42:16 1999 From: SE224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (Kailash Srivastava) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 99 10:42:16 +0200 Subject: When was "the Agastya Samhita" written? Message-ID: <161227052971.23782.5233722421832436895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanx for your reply. I have posted this message to another list also and have got the following response that I would like to share on this list: "Yes the Agatsya samhita, is a book of the pancharatra vaisnava school that date before of puranic compilation. But by the dostortion of British scholars, the modern wensters Indologist believe very recent dates.,around 8 century D A, but the Mahabharata and the Vedanta-sutra make references about them. The Agatsyas were a dynasty of brahmans, and probably the author of this samhita was the same Agatsya sage that appear in the Bhagavatam, one comtemporany of Lord Krishna, because in this book makes reference to the Krsna worship in the Temple. Probably, was compiler after of Mausala lila of Krishna, due that the Krishna worship was stated by Vajranabha yadava king, the son of Anirudha the great son of Lord Krishna, in all India." ----- Original Message ----- From: James Mallinson To: Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 1:06 PM Subject: Re: When was "the Agastya Samhita" written? > Hans Bakker in his AyodhyA (Egbert Forsten, Groningen, 1986, pp. 68-70) > reckons it to have been composed in 12th century (CE) Benares. > ---------- > >From: ". ." > >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >Subject: When was "the Agastya Samhita" written? > >Date: Thu, Oct 21, 1999, 11:54 am > > > > >Could anyone please enlighten me? Any educated guess!!!! > > > >Thanx/Kailash Srivastava > > > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Sun Oct 24 15:33:52 1999 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 99 11:33:52 -0400 Subject: Raas Lila Message-ID: <161227052982.23782.3993147750104522093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fellow Indogisists: The central episode of the Bhagavata Purana and especially of the tenth chapter, is the Raas Lila. This has considerable aesthetic and religious implications. While the influence of the Tamil poets, both secular and sacred (Aham and Alvar), is well known, were there any other influences that have shaped this Purana? For instance did the Sufis or the Tantrics shape the Raas Lila in any way? I will be grateful for any comments. Harsha V. Dehejia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Oct 24 10:38:48 1999 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM.Krishnan) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 99 15:38:48 +0500 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227052973.23782.93930879651624318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Nanda Chandran, At 10/19/99 5:03:00 PM, you wrote: >RM Krishnan writes : > >>These pro-sukra Brahmins practiced a modified form of vedic >>yagnas. They also included many native practices including that of Agamas >>originating in the south. These people >>were called Brihacharanas. They settled first around Thiru ANNamalai, about >>125 kilometres from the present CheNNai. Subsequently, when Buddism and >>Jainism became popular in the Magath kingdom (600BC-200Bc) and perhaps the >>entire north and northeast India, quite a number of pro-Brhaspathi >>Brahmins, especially from Kashi (BeNAras), also moved into the south and >>further into Tamilnadu. They were called the vadamAs (northeners). Even >>today, philosophically there are differences between the two groups and >>marriages are entered into reluctantly. There is now a gradual assimilation >>between the two groups, due to modern influences. >I'm not at all sure this reflects the true reason for the friction >between Vadamas and other brahmins in Tamil Nadu. As far as I've >observed the 'superiority' of the Vadama, springs mostly from the >perceived closer connection to Vedic culture and Samskrutam, than >the other brahmins in Tamil Nadu (probably because they were the last >to come into Tamil Nadu). I have not stated otherwise. What I have said was that there could have been at least two migrations into Tamilnadu. The earlier migration group, (probably the BrihatcharaNam) got very much aligned with the Tamil traditions (dropping some of their own original traditions and modifying certain others) and the last (mainly Vadamas) less so during the Sangam period. (There have been beautiful exceptions, like the three Vadama poets of the Sangam period, viz., vadama vaNNakkan thAmOtharanAr, vadama vaNNakkan perunjcAththanAr, vadamavaNNakkan pEricAththanAr). I have never said that the BrihatcharaNam are anti-vedic (and I would be the last person to say so). There might also have been conversion from Tamil intelligentia into Brahminism. I now quote from Prof.N.Subrahmanian (The Brahmin in the Tamil country,p31). "Now, the first arrivals created a sympathetic interest among the native Tamil wise men many of whom converted themselves to Brahminism through a sociological process proved possible by Visvamitra. The early arrivals settled down in certain important centres to pursue their hieratic activities and along with the converts who followed the Brahmins in every respect like wearing the sacred thread, performing the yagas etc., established the Tamil Brahminical tradition. This was the earliest phase of Sanskritisation in the Tamil country. These earliest settlers and the earliest converts constituted the largest Brahmin lineage in the Tamil country in those times and was therefore called the Brihatcharanas, and they were designated with reference to their native settlement, as the malanAdu*, Thiru aNNamalai**, Satyamangalam etc. The lack of sufficient communication in those times which made most Indians stay-at-homes added to a native tendency to extend endogamy to its utmost limit prevented intermarriages even within these sects, though they were all pro-sukras, and therefore, Kappias. A particular group which settled in a village called eNNAyiram of which we have later epigraphic reference as a centre of vedic study came to be called eNNAyiravar, sanskritised into ashtahasrAs. The anti-sukras who arrived perhaps a couple of centuries or more later were treated by other arrivals as the northeners or the vadamas; it was not so much the direction from which they came which gave them the name as the tradition they followed and represented. The difference in tradition between these two groups related rather to their attitude to certain religious affliations and social customs; but the difference was emphasized by distinct modes of dress etc., and total ban on intermarriage between the northern groups as a whole and the rest a tradition which largely holds good even today." {* - malanadu is also called mAngudi - a village in the Trichirappalli district. ** -I have wrongly stated the distance from CheNNai as around 125 KM; Mr.Anbumani has given the correct distance as around 200KM.] I narrated the analogy of migration into Tamil country mainly to highlight the plausible split of the then Aryan intelligentia as pro-Brhaspathi and pro-Sukra groups during the later vedic times. I only said that one group identified themselves with Asuras (who, as Parpolo had suggested, could also have been Indo-Europeans but merged into the dravidian sub-strata) rather than with DEvAs (who were the later arrivals). (I would like to elaborate on this point; but then it would be a digression of the topic we are discussing; perhaps I would take up in another posting.) This division might have got accentuated leading to a deeper division during the puraNic period and forcing a migration to the south from the Aryavartha. Hence the vedic Agastya could not be identified with the puraNic Agastya of the migration myth. This is the basic premise for me to suggest a different etymology of the name 'Agastya', rather than the traditional etymology offered by Sanskritists. I surmise the name to be closely related to the word 'Athan' in Tamil whose allographs are also prevalent in other Indo-European and Dravidian languages. >But note that the bruhacharanam, AshtashAstram, VAthimA etc are >themselves stauch smarthas and followers of Adi ShankarAchArya. And >considering the strong anti non-brahmin attitude which is revealed >in samskrutic and especially VedAntic literature concerning the >non-eligibility of non-brahmins to study the Vedic literature, the >argument that they were anti-Vedic or anti-Brhaspathy doesn't find >much support. I do not say that the brahmins other than vadamAs are non-vedic. I have also not said that non-brahmins were encouraged to study vedic literature. But still you cannot stop somebody from studying. Through out the history in the south, there has always been brahmins like RamanujAchArya tolerating this un-holy practice of baptising the heathen by fire. (A remnant practice now-a-days is to make the non-brahmins temporarily wear the sacred thread during shrardhA ceremony after performing certain rites.) To say otherwise of conversions would be against history. All this earlier frictions between different sects of brahmins (including vadamAs, non-vadamAs and converts, coloureds, pure and impure etc.) does not prevent them to become stauch smArthAs. (Incidentally, the brahmins history does not jump from the vedic period to the period of Adi Shankara; and once becoming smArtha, one cannot say that every other thing is of no consequence.) >And also there's hardly any evidence that the non-vadamas married >into non-brahmin groups. There are as casteist as the vadamas. And >though there's some reluctance for marraige alliances between the Vadamas >and non-vadamas, it's not unusual either. I have not clearly alluded to any marriage alliances. At the same time, it might be a sweeping statement to say that there is non-evidence for that. Classical example could perhaps be the SivAcharyas in the temples. These are the people who have been often ostracised because of their defence of Saivism and earlier Tamil traditions. But then, my arguement of the schism is not through marriage alliances. The mix of the traditions could be through simple routes of assimilation, namely when you are in Rome, you do as Romans do. This is what earlier non-vadama sects might have sensibly done. In turn, to vadamAs, coming before Adi shankarA, might have wanted to protect the pure vedic traditions without localisation; this might have been the friction point between them and the non-vadamas. >That RAmanujAchArya was a vadama and probably quite a few of his >immediate followers (VedAnta DesikA too) were Vadamas and that >it's generally considered that the Vadamas would *mature* into >Vaishnavism (read VisishtAdvaitam), might have been one of the >reasons for the friction between vadamas and other brahmin sects. Not all vaishNavaits are vadamAs and vice versa. >But also note that the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, has had some Vadamas >as ShankarAchAryas too. The present pontiff Jayendra Saraswati, too, >I think is a Vadama. > >And Vadamas don't look down upon other Tamil smarthas only. I've even >heard vadamas who reside in Palaghat, speak with contempt about >Namboodaris too! And Madhvas and also Vadama Iyengars too don't find >much favor. > >I think it's just a case of the "one who's preserved the pure tradition". This is precisely what I was emphasizing. The friction is between the ones following the so called pure traditions and the ones who compromised with the natives. >So reading an Aryan-Dravidian clash in the friction between Tamizh >brahmins is stretching it a bit too far! I think, it is quite a sweeping statement. Perhaps you are reading between the lines. The basic question was about the etymology of the name 'Agastya'. I gave reasons for not accepting the traditional etymology. Before giving a new etymology, I had to emphasize that the migration of Aryans could have occurred more than once. Subsequently, friction could have developed within the intelligentia of the Aryans and the alluded split could have occurred. I also gave an anology of brahmins migrating into Tamilakam in the puraNic period, with the frictions carried along. Let us put the facts straight. The dravidians were only in the sub-strata and the conflict I suggested was between two groups of Aryans. Agastya of the puraNic period belonged to the group following the pro- SukrA traditions. Often myths do indicate the outlines of proto-history. And Indian myths do talk about three groups of yonder years: the dEvAs, the asurAs and the manithAs; unfortunately, the silent manithAs were always in the background without protoganists :-). With regards, RM.Krishnan. From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Oct 24 11:05:48 1999 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM.Krishnan) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 99 16:05:48 +0500 Subject: Fw: Re: Re: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227052975.23782.7608604879840889463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: RM.Krishnan >To: anbumani at webname.com >Subject: Re: Re: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- >At 10/19/99 11:48:00 AM, you wrote: >>Anbulla Dr. Krishnan, >> >>"RM.Krishnan" wrote: >> >>> They found receptive Southern kings, especially in Tamil nadu. These pro-sukra Brahmins practiced a modified >form of >>> vedic >>> yagnas. They also included many native practices including that of Agamas originating in the south. These people >>> were called Brihacharanas. They settled first around Thiru ANNamalai, about 125 kilometres from the present >>> CheNNai. Subsequently, when Buddism and Jainism became popular in the Magath kingdom (600BC-200Bc) and >> >>Coming from Tiruvannamalai, I have never heard about Brihacharanas in my town. :-( >>Can you give more info. on which dynasty/king supported them ? What are they called now ? >> >>Btw, my town is 200 kms. from Mds. >> >>Anbudan, Anbu. >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Anbumani Subramanian, E-mail: anbumani at webname.com >>Graduate Student, Web: http://www.angelfire.com/in/anbu >>Dept. of Electrical Engineering, >>Virgnina Tech., Blacksburg, VA - 24060. >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >Dear Mr. Anbumani, > >Please read Prof.N.Subrahmanian's illuminating book on Tamil Brahmins. I think you can get the book in Saiva >Siddhantha book society, T.T.K. Road here in CheNNai. If I start to describe the geneology of modern Tamil >Brahmins, it may consume quite a space. > >Apparently the migration of non-vadamas (mainly BrihatcharaNam) has occured at least a few centuries (your guess >is as good as mine- it could be 3 or 4 centuries) prior to the Nandha period in Magadh. Unfortunately, the literary >sources are few and far between. This is one area where researchers have to delve deeper into the Prakrit, Pali, >Sanskrit and Tamil sources. We can not clearly ascribe to which king or dynasty. Many early CerAs, pANdiyAs and >cOzAs had encouraged/performed vedic practices (Examples ares palyAkasalai muthukudumip peruvazuthi, >perunjcORRu uthiyan cEralAthan and Rajasuyam vEtta perunaRkiLLi etc). Starting as a trickle around 2nd or 3rd C. >B.C, and gaining momentum during the pre-pallavA days, the migration of vadamAs peaked during the days of Simha >VishNu. That was when KAnjcipuram became a world renowned centre of learning, competing with Nalanda, the >Buddhist centre of learning. > >Kasi, the great vedic centre of learning after the earlier Taxila became Buddhist, was centre to Brahmins during >Nandha and Maurya times. When Buddhism and Jainism spread throughout the Mauryan empire, Kasi also last its >glory and Kanji substituted it. (Still the memory of Kasi remained in the Tamil Brahmin ethos. Even today during >Brahmin marriages, Kasi yatra rite is performed to remind the great learning centre. The bride groom is supposed to >proceed to Kasi for enhanced deep vedic learning and not wanting to proceed with married life; the bride's father >subsequently pleads with him not to abandon but to take his daughter in marriage and become a KrihachAraha by >establishing a righteous life. After persuasion, the bridegroom accepts and proceeds with the marriage.) > >Famous Scholar Dandin established an academy in KAnji during Mahendra PallavA's time. Many other sanskrit >scholars are supposed to have hailed from KAnji. Even the nagari alphabets are supposed to have been standardised at >kAnji. That was the day of 'NagarEshu KaNji - If you say city, it must be Kanji'. Even a number of Buddhist Scholars >had originated from KAnji. Many VEdAntic and upanishadic develpments, commentaries etc have originated from >KAnji. The religious persecution between Buddhism/Jainism on the one hand and Brahmnism on the other was very >much part of Indian story from 600 B.C to 300 A.D. Brahminism was on the run to the south for safe custody. >Buddhism and Jainism followed. Eventually all these met the local southern traditions of Saivism and VaishNavism. >The deep struggles eventually ended in the north during the period following the Ujaini Guptas (with brahminism >reigning largely due to efforts by AdiShankara and Buddhism/Jainism on the wane). In the south, local traditions of >Saivism and VaishNavism reclaimed their positions during the end of pallavA period. They had their zenith once >again during imperial cOzAs. > >To understand and interpret the Indian traditions properly, one cannot abandon the history and contributions from the >south. Looking into largely Sanskritic sources and neglecting others would not do. > >With regards, >RM.Krishnan > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Oct 24 15:58:51 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 99 16:58:51 +0100 Subject: Forwarding of query Message-ID: <161227052980.23782.14593803828198585967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am forwarding this query from another list. Please answer to Mr. Martini personally, as he is not on Indology (as far as I know). Lars Martin Fosse ***************************************************** YOURI MARTINI VIA ROMA 51 18010 SANTO STEFANO AL MARE IMPERIA ITALIA youri martini [youmar at yahoo.it] My name is Youri Martini. I am a student of the last course of modern history at the University of Genova (Italy). At the moment I'm getting together all kind of materials and authentic documents concerning the catholic churches and their movement of evangelization in India (XVI and XVII century) in order to write my degree thesis. My work is based on the analysis of "Gentilesimo cofutato", a book written by a benedectin monk, don Clemente Tosi, in 1669. I think this text was used as a handbook by catholic missionaries going to India. The main problem is my own deep ignorance of the actual location of towns and provinces in the ancient India Mughal.In addiction to it, the names of towns and provinces, as we find them reported in "Gentilesimo confutato", are spelled in ancient Italian according to the way they were pronounced and not as they were actually written at the time and maybe nowadays as well. I therefore find myself without any positive geographical reference. I enclose a list including all towns and provinces quoted in the book, in order to give You a more detailed idea of what I mean. Moreover I'd like to have as many pieces of information as You can find, concerning the historical, economical and political background about the towns and provinces I mentioned above,dating back to Aurangzeb's time. Looking forward to receiving Your found answer . Yours faithfully Youri Martini IL GENTILESIMO CONFUTATO BY DON CLEMENTE TOSI PROVINCES AND TOWNS OF MUGHAL EMPIRE (AURANGZEB'S TIME) 1)KABUL -towns: Kabul, Chere Cullouv 2)KANDAAR -town: Kandaar, Calabiche, Chusechunam, Cazicham (Grees) -river: Sabaa -mountain: Corazan 3)MULTAN -towns: Multan, Catzan, Dukeen, Durves 4)HAJACAN -town: Hajacan 5)BAKER -towns: Baker, Seivan 6)SINDH -towns: Sindh, Tatta, Diul, Sindh 7)SORET -towns: Soret, Ninovi, Cacha, Giangar 8)GUJARAT -towns: Gujarat, Mangerol, Patan, Diu, Amadabat, Goga, Sarques, Campanel, Surat, Daman, Bazain, Dabul 9)CHITOR(SANGA) -towns: Chitor, Ratimpore 10)IESELMEERE -towns: Ieselmeere,Marum 11)IENGAPOR -town: Ienupa(Iengapor) 12)KASHMIR -town: Siranakar(Kashmir) 13)PANG-AB -town: Lahor 14)IENUBA -town: Ienba 15)ATTAK -towns: Attak, Assam-Abdal 16)DELY -towns: Sirynama, Tanasar, Dely -river: Setmego 17)BANDO -towns: Bando(Biana), Mearta, Hendovune -mountain: Marva 18)BERAR -towns: Sarampore, Sirange 19)MALVA -towns: Ugen, Calleada -river: Cepra 20)KANDISC -towns: Mandoa, Hassare, Tualnere, Brodera(Radiapore) 21)GVALIOR -town: Gvalior 22)NARVAAR -town: Gelmol 23)PURROPIA -towns: Agra, Duolpore, Fettipore, Secandra,Itay, Ilavas(Halebasse) 24)BAKAR -towns: Cannove, Bikanaer, Lacannove, Ouden, Iounpore 25)SENEBAL(DO-AB) -towns: Sambal, Sansaram, Anavas 26)PATNA -town: Potan 27)NAGRACUT -town: Nakarkar 28)BANSISK -town: Behisur 29)SIBA -town: Harduavir 30)KAKARES -towns: Kakares, Pulhora, Dankaler -mountain: Dalanguer 31)GOR -town: Gor -river: Perselly 32)PEYTAN -town: Peytan -river: Kanda 33)KANDVANA -town: Karabatek 34)ISUAL -town: Raipore 35)MEUSAT -town: Narnel 36)UDEZA -town: Iekanar 37)BENGALA(including twelve provinces) -towns: Banaros, Patana, Moguer, Rajamol, Govro,Baligata, Katabro, Bulva, Chatigan, Siripur, Noricul, Tamboli, Daka, Solimanas,Bacala,Mussammabazar, Satagan, Ugulim, Pequeno,Angelim, Balassor, Pipli, Cateka, Aripur,Piplipatan, Narsingapatan, Mussulapatan, Arcipur, Midinimpur, Ramaxandrapur, Ialassor, Narangor, Burdua -river: Ader -islands: Kandekan, Sagor 38)DECAN -towns: Obatebal, Deder ************************************** Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From Alan.Thew at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK Mon Oct 25 00:11:00 1999 From: Alan.Thew at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Alan Thew) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 99 01:11:00 +0100 Subject: Mughal India (fwd) Message-ID: <161227052985.23782.6998970269722922876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> forwarded -- Alan Thew alan.thew at liverpool.ac.uk Computing Services,University of Liverpool Fax: +44 151 794-4442 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 05:39:52 +0200 (CEST) From: youri martini To: INDOLOGY-request at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Mughal India YOURI MARTINI VIA ROMA 51 18010 SANTO STEFANO AL MARE IMPERIA ITALIA My name is Youri Martini. I am a student of the last course of modern history at the University of Genova (Italy). At the moment I'm getting together all kind of materials and authentic documents concerning the catholic churches and their movement of evangelization in India (XVI and XVII century) in order to write my degree thesis. My work is based on the analysis of "Gentilesimo cofutato", a book written by a benedectin monk, don Clemente Tosi, in 1669. I think this text was used as a handbook by catholic missionaries going to India. The main problem is my own deep ignorance of the actual location of towns and provinces in the ancient India Mughal.In addiction to it, the names of towns and provinces, as we find them reported in "Gentilesimo confutato", are spelled in ancient Italian according to the way they were pronounced and not as they were actually written at the time and maybe nowadays as well. I therefore find myself without any positive geographical reference. I enclose a list including all towns and provinces quoted in the book, in order to give You a more detailed idea of what I mean. Moreover I'd like to have as many pieces of information as You can find, concerning the historical, economical and political background about the towns and provinces I mentioned above,dating back to Aurangzeb's time. Looking forward to receiving Your found answer . Yours faithfully Youri Martini IL GENTILESIMO CONFUTATO BY DON CLEMENTE TOSI PROVINCES AND TOWNS OF MUGHAL EMPIRE (AURANGZEB'S TIME) 1)KABUL -towns: Kabul, Chere Cullouv 2)KANDAAR -town: Kandaar, Calabiche, Chusechunam, Cazicham(Grees) -river: Sabaa -mountain: Corazan 3)MULTAN -towns: Multan, Catzan, Dukeen, Durves 4)HAJACAN -town: Hajacan 5)BAKER -towns: Baker, Seivan 6)SINDH -towns: Sindh, Tatta, Diul, Sindh 7)SORET -towns: Soret, Ninovi, Cacha, Giangar 8)GUJARAT -towns: Gujarat, Mangerol, Patan, Diu, Amadabat, Goga, Sarques, Campanel, Surat, Daman, Bazain, Dabul 9)CHITOR(SANGA) -towns: Chitor, Ratimpore 10)IESELMEERE -towns: Ieselmeere,Marum 11)IENGAPOR -town: Ienupa(Iengapor) 12)KASHMIR -town: Siranakar(Kashmir) 13)PANG-AB -town: Lahor 14)IENUBA -town: Ienba 15)ATTAK -towns: Attak, Assam-Abdal 16)DELY -towns: Sirynama, Tanasar, Dely -river: Setmego 17)BANDO -towns: Bando(Biana), Mearta, Hendovune -mountain: Marva 18)BERAR -towns: Sarampore, Sirange 19)MALVA -towns: Ugen, Calleada -river: Cepra 20)KANDISC -towns: Mandoa, Hassare, Tualnere, Brodera(Radiapore) 21)GVALIOR -town: Gvalior 22)NARVAAR -town: Gelmol 23)PURROPIA -towns: Agra, Duolpore, Fettipore, Secandra,Itay, Ilavas(Halebasse) 24)BAKAR -towns: Cannove, Bikanaer, Lacannove, Ouden, Iounpore 25)SENEBAL(DO-AB) -towns: Sambal, Sansaram, Anavas 26)PATNA -town: Potan 27)NAGRACUT -town: Nakarkar 28)BANSISK -town: Behisur 29)SIBA -town: Harduavir 30)KAKARES -towns: Kakares, Pulhora, Dankaler -mountain: Dalanguer 31)GOR -town: Gor -river: Perselly 32)PEYTAN -town: Peytan -river: Kanda 33)KANDVANA -town: Karabatek 34)ISUAL -town: Raipore 35)MEUSAT -town: Narnel 36)UDEZA -town: Iekanar 37)BENGALA(including twelve provinces) -towns: Banaros, Patana, Moguer, Rajamol, Govro,Baligata, Katabro, Bulva, Chatigan, Siripur, Noricul, Tamboli, Daka, Solimanas,Bacala,Mussammabazar, Satagan, Ugulim, Pequeno,Angelim, Balassor, Pipli, Cateka, Aripur,Piplipatan, Narsingapatan, Mussulapatan, Arcipur, Midinimpur, Ramaxandrapur, Ialassor, Narangor, Burdua -river: Ader -islands: Kandekan, Sagor 38)DECAN -towns: Obatebal, Deder ===== ______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Mon Oct 25 05:40:17 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 99 06:40:17 +0100 Subject: Raas Lila In-Reply-To: <000701bf1e35$2e4a8980$217c7586@hdehejia.carleton.ca> Message-ID: <161227052987.23782.18214947782706933852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:33:52 -0400 Send reply to: Indology From: "Harsha V. Dehejia" Subject: Raas Lila To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Fellow Indogisists: > > The central episode of the Bhagavata Purana and especially of the tenth chapter, is the Raas Lila. This has considerable aesthetic and religious implications. While the influence of the Tamil poets, both secular and sacred (Aham and Alvar), is well known, were there any other influences that have shaped this Purana? For instance did the Sufis or the Tantrics shape the Raas Lila in any way? > > I will be grateful for any comments. > > Harsha V. Dehejia > > > > I do not think that Raas Lilaa is the central theme of the Puraana, or even of its tenth book. The said Puraana is an integration of mythology, philosophy and poetry, and is woven around the central theme of Vishnu as the supreme principle and his ten incarnations for the rescue of the world from evil forces. The tenth book has an epic character with Krishna and his exploits as its theme. Proofs of the influence of south Indian devotional cults are found in the text itself; but other influences are questionable. KS Arjunwadkar/25-10-99 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 25 14:26:42 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 99 07:26:42 -0700 Subject: Learning Classical Tamil (was: buddhist sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227052989.23782.7307928217439586275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I would like to thank all those who were kind enough to come up with >the details of the book I was looking for. I am sorry nobody could >come up with any suggestions for an earlier enquiry I made about >learning Classical Tamil. >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge Dear Mr. Hodge, Please contact Dr. John Ralston Marr whose address was provided by Dr. Jan Filipsky, a Tamil scholar himself, to me once. If you find out his email, pl. let me know that; In Europe, there may be 20 academics who know Tamil well enough. Dr. Marr is an expert in Classical Tamil and in Carnatic music too, Daud Ali who did his PhD on Cholas teaches now at SOAS. S. Blackburn knows Tamil quite well (more towards on folklore, middle & modern Tamil,) Zvelebil is in France; Ulrike Niklas just left Cologne to join an academic position at Singapore; At Cologne, Dr. Thomas Malten; At Heidelberg, Dr. A. Dhamodharan and Dr. Thomas Lehmann, At Paris, Dr. J-L. Chevillard, At Uppsala, Dr. A. Veluppillai & Dr. P. Schalk come to mind. Of course, at Madras, the Inst. of Asian studies, another place to try will be Madurai. Best wishes, N. Ganesan >I need the address of Dr. John Marr; Before retirement, >he was with SOAS, that post went to Dr. Stuart Blackburn now. > Dr. John R. Marr is still active in London's Bhavan teaching Indian music and other disciplines close to his heart. His postal address is Holme Farm, Woodham, Addlestone, Surrey KT15 3TG, U.K. I don't know if he has e-mail. J. Filipsky ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 25 14:37:56 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 99 07:37:56 -0700 Subject: Raas Lila Message-ID: <161227052991.23782.13845836490633655991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not see any sufi and tantric texts in bhAgavatham. It is a text most likely written by Tamil Srivaishnavas in Tamilakam, more on this can be seen from F. Hardy, virahabhakti, OUP. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 25 22:37:47 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 99 15:37:47 -0700 Subject: Hindu numerals Message-ID: <161227052993.23782.6643784020347641285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> a) G. Flegg, 1983, Numbers: Their history and meaning, London: Andre Deutsch b) K. Menninger, 1969, Number words and Number symbols: A cultural history of numbers, MIT press c) E. Sondheim and A. Rogerson, 1981, Numbers and Infinity, Cambridge University Press d) Tobias Danzig, 1954, Number, NY: Anchor e) G. F. Hill, 1915, The development of Arabic numerals in Europe, Oxford f) G. Ifrah, 1985, From One to Zero, Viking g) J. McLeish, 1991, Number, NY: Fawcett-Combine h) D. E. Smith, 1911, The Hindu-Arabic numerals, Boston: Ginn & Co i) S. Gokhale, 1966, Indian numerals, Poona j) P. L. Gupta, 1971, Ancient Indian numerals, Delhi, 2v. k) P. Kullavanijaya, 1983, Thai numeral system: a study of its development, Bangkok Best, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 25 22:58:03 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 99 15:58:03 -0700 Subject: Fw: Re: Re: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227052995.23782.1720745480133255022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Krishnan, >The earlier migration group, (probably the BrihatcharaNam) got very much >aligned with the Tamil traditions (dropping some of their own original >traditions and modifying certain others) and the last (mainly Vadamas) less >so during the Sangam period. This is one of this things that I thought might not be true. That's why I highlighted that Brhacharanam are very staunch smarthas and that even early VedAntic literature doesn't seem too tolerable towards non-brahmins. Brhacharanam itself means the Great Migration ie brahmins who migrated South from the North. So to identify non-brahmins from the south as brhacharanam makes little sense. >There might also have been conversion from Tamil intelligentia into >Brahminism. That non-brahmins were inducted into brahminism and early brahmins intermarried with non-brahmins is favored by pro-AI theorists, to justify 1. the dark complexion of some brahmins and 2. the fair complexion of some non-brahmins. History supports no such theory. When even the Buddha himself was considered by the brahmins only as an equal and sometimes even as inferior, I don't see much support for the theory that brahmins would've looked favorably upon non-brahmins down south. Read the Manu - is there any justification for such claims like inter marraige or induction into brahmanic ranks? Pride of birth is an essential feature of brahmanism and one of the main reasons for the heriditary nature of the caste system. According to the dharma shastras, a brahmana is one who's born of brahmana parents. If the mother is of a lower caste, the child acquires the caste of his/her mother. When even today, in modern secular India, such intermarraige is heavily frowned upon, is there any indication, if one reads the dharma shastras, that it could have been otherwise in the rigorously orthodox past? Also consider the indignation of smarthas even today, who accuse RamanujAchArya of taking in non-brahmins into the brahminic fold. There might be some truth to this considering that the two branches of Vishitadvaitam - Vadakalai and Tenkalai - in philosophy and tradition seem to justify it. For the first with its greater emphasis on the Samskrutic tradition, its 'intelligent' devotion and adherence to the Vedic ritualistic tradition is more faithful to Ramanuja and the Vedic tradition, than the Tenkalai which seems to be lean more towards the emotional outpourings of the Alzhwars and Tamizh. Also note that the Vadakalai don't intermarry with the Tenkalai. >I now quote from Prof.N.Subrahmanian (The Brahmin in the Tamil >country,p31). This is no proof for the authenticity of such claims. >"Now, the first arrivals created a sympathetic interest among the native >Tamil wise men many of whom converted themselves to Brahminism through a >sociological process proved possible by Visvamitra. The early arrivals >settled down in certain important centres to pursue their hieratic >activities and along with the converts who followed the >Brahmins in every respect like wearing the sacred thread, performing the >yagas etc., established the TamilBrahminical tradition. This was the >earliest phase of Sanskritisation in the Tamil country. Speculation seems to be rule in Indology, especially if it supports the AI theory! Is there any textual evidence to support such claims? >I only said that one group identified themselves with Asuras (who, as >Parpolo had suggested, could also have been Indo-Europeans but merged into >the dravidian sub-strata) rather than with DEvAs (who were the later >arrivals). Please can we have some textual evidence for this? (And I don't mean Subrahmanian's book!). Let's see some evidence from Vedic or older Tamizh texts. >This is the basic premise for me to suggest a different etymology of the >name 'Agastya', What generally starts out as a suggestion, generally gets blown out of proportion. Later the origin is forgotten and finally you have people suggesting Dravidian loan words in the Rg Veda! >But still you cannot stop somebody from studying. Yet when one reads early VedAntic literature and the dharma shAstras, it is obvious that this was the practice. >Through out the history in the south, there has always been brahmins like >RamanujAchArya tolerating this un-holy practice of baptising the heathen by >fire. Specifics please. Even the few saints who tried to do that were not really successful. Ramana Maharishi, who is himself pretty knowledgable about the history of Tamil Nadu and its brahmins, remarks that though a few saints did try to convert non-brahmins into brahmins, the former themselves didn't have the confidence to accept the mantle. And also the orthodox brahmin groups, generally with the support of their Shankara mathams, heavily opposed such conversions. As for Ramanujacharya's conversions, even a milleneum later the smarthas still remember! And they don't accept Iyengars as true brahmins. But such problems doesn't exist within the smartha fold. The Vadama makes no such accusation at the other smarthas. His only point is that he's purer than the rest as he came in later. >To say otherwise of conversions would be against history. Please explain how? >All this earlier frictions between different sects of brahmins (including >vadamAs, non-vadamAs and converts, coloureds, pure >and impure etc.) does not prevent them to become stauch smArthAs. To be a staunch smartha, you should have the support of the Shankara mathams, which if you know, are ultra orthodox, when it comes to preserving brahminic culture. So being a staunch smartha requires a brahminic background. >I have not clearly alluded to any marriage alliances. At the same time, it >might be a sweeping statement to say that there is non-evidence for that. >Classical example could perhaps be the SivAcharyas in the temples. These >are the people who have been often ostracised because of their defence of >Saivism and earlier Tamil traditions. But are the SivAchAryas authenticated as brahmins? And even if they are, do they inter marry with non-brahmins? And even if it is so, just citing one particular set of people, doens't justify the original claim that brahmins intermarried or inducted non-brahmins. The same way, the smarthas don't approve of the Vaishnavas (Iyengars). But that doesn't mean that the Iyergars intermarry with non-brahmins. And just because one is a follower of Saiva SiddhAnta or likes Tamil traditions, doesn't mean one is not looked kindly upon in brahmanic circles. The great Appaya DIkshitar was both, yet is honoured in brahmanic circles. >The mix of the traditions could be through simple routes of >assimilation, namely when you are in Rome, you do as Romans do. It's not so simple as that. For the brahmin, assimilation means bringing others to accept the Vedic world view. And it's seldom the other way round. >So reading an Aryan-Dravidian clash in the friction between Tamizh >brahmins is stretching it a bit too far! >I think, it is quite a sweeping statement. Perhaps you are reading between >the lines. If I did, please forgive me. My twin points of argument is against the claims 1. that brahmins intermarried with non-brahmins or there was induction of non-brahmins into the smartha fold and 2. that the inter smartha conflict in TamilNadu is due to the pro or anti brhaspati, reasons. >Let us put the facts straight. The dravidians were only in the sub-strata >and the conflict I suggested was between two groups of Aryans. I've no problem with this - except that I don't agree that the conflict was on the lines that you suggested - a pro-Brhaspati Vs a pro-Sukhra groupings. More plausible is a Brhaspathi and even purer Brhaspathi conflict. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 26 00:26:28 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 99 17:26:28 -0700 Subject: Fw: Re: Re: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053032.23782.16484756633800292564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >According to the dharma >shastras, a brahmana is one who's born of brahmana parents. If the mother >is >of a lower caste, the child acquires the caste of his/her mother. No, according to the traditional texts, the child usually belongs to an "intermediate" caste, e.g. sUta, rathakAra etc. Manu has detailed descriptions of the origins of these castes through anuloma and pratiloma marriages among the four classical varNas. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From SSRVJ at AOL.COM Mon Oct 25 23:54:28 1999 From: SSRVJ at AOL.COM (Somayaji Rajagopala) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 99 19:54:28 -0400 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227052998.23782.4856343661378761661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 10/24/99 5:14:08 AM EST, poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN writes: << >But also note that the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, has had some Vadamas >as ShankarAchAryas too. The present pontiff Jayendra Saraswati, too, >I think is a Vadama. >> Sri.Jayendra saraswathi is a Brahacharam Tamil Brahmin.His guru Sri.Chandrasekerndra Saraswathi is(Was) a Kannada Smaartha Brahmin.Sri.Jayendra Saraswathi's disciple Sri.Vijayendra Saraswathi is Telugu Mulakanadu Brahmin (of Thandarai Village-South or North Arcot Dt).Ofcourse after the "Sanyastha" sanskaaram- they don't belong to any sub-sects. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Oct 25 23:11:40 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 00:11:40 +0100 Subject: Learning Classical Tamil Message-ID: <161227052996.23782.6137226819614015073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A big thank-you to those who posted some useful pointers for learning Classical Tamil -- I'll try and follow them up as time permits Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 26 13:05:02 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 06:05:02 -0700 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053002.23782.14530204932885524603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >That non-brahmins were inducted into brahminism and early brahmins >intermarried with non-brahmins is favored by pro-AI theorists, to justify >1. the dark complexion of some brahmins and 2. the fair complexion of some >non-brahmins. >History supports no such theory. When even the Buddha himself >was considered by the brahmins only as an equal and sometimes >even as inferior, I don't see much support for the theory that >brahmins would've looked favorably upon non-brahmins down south. I did not know that you support the hypothesis that Aryans originated in India. If so, did they spread westward into Iran? Definitely, intermarriages tookplace, in the MBh. epic - the lady of the fisherfolks marrying a high varNa man, etc., The swelling of the number of brahmins by intermarriages is explained in many scholarly works, Eg., those by Prof. M. Deshpande of UMichigan. The bhargava and potter relations in Indology archives. I vaguely remember you said once that the difference in color amidst Indians is due to "tropical sun". I think the color difference cannot be explained this way. >Read the Manu - is there any justification for such claims like >inter marraige or induction into brahmanic ranks? Pride of birth >is an essential feature of brahmanism and one of the main reasons >for the heriditary nature of the caste system. According to the dharma >shastras, a brahmana is one who's born of brahmana parents. If the mother >is of a lower caste, the child acquires the caste of his/her mother. I agree with this, but there are exceptions. Along your lines, how the "varNa" system was created is explained in Brian K. Smith, Classifying the Universe. >Also note that the Vadakalai don't intermarry with the Tenkalai. I personally know some weddings where vaDa- & then-kalai ayyangars have married; In the Hindu newspaper marital ads, increasing are the annoucements that "kalai" difference does not matter. >>I now quote from Prof.N.Subrahmanian (The Brahmin in the Tamil >>country,p31). Mr Chandran:> This is no proof for the authenticity of such claims. Now in his 80s, Prof. N. Subrahmanyan comes from a reputed family of Tamil Smarthas who have produced many Sanskrit and Tamil scholars; he was called Historian of the Tamils by K. A. Nilakanta Sastri when NS wrote the book, History of Tamil Nadu. N. Subrahmanyan edited a campu work in Sanskrit sung on Anandarangam Pillai who kept a daily diary running into volumes in late 1700s and served as a Dubhashi/interpreter for the French governor, Dupleuix. From the mother's side, Prof. NS' uncle is V. K. Suryanarayana Sastri. >What generally starts out as a suggestion, generally gets blown out >of proportion. Later the origin is forgotten and finally you have >people suggesting Dravidian loan words in the Rg Veda! Great Indologists have always written that Dravidian loans exist in RV, esp. in maNDalas 1 & 10. >As for Ramanujacharya's conversions, even a milleneum later >the smarthas still remember! And they don't accept Iyengars as >true brahmins. I do not see Aiyangars or Tamils accepting your opinion that Aiyangars are not brahmins. >But are the SivAchAryas authenticated as brahmins? And even if they >are, do they inter marry with non-brahmins? Adhisaiva Sivacharyas are true brahmins because they preserved/added to the entire corpus of Saiva aagamas. Always, saiva aagama publications are based on the mss. from those Sivachariyar homes. For their marriage habits, pl. read the 12th century PeriyapuraaNam of Sundarar. There is enough evidence, both from Skt. and Tamil sources, that brahmins' numbers increased manyfold by intermarrying with Dravidians in ancient India and later. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 26 16:21:32 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 09:21:32 -0700 Subject: Hindu book, 7000 BCE Message-ID: <161227053004.23782.17337824225979783342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gautier's dating of the RV as 7000 BCE is interesting. For more details, read F. Gautier's popular articles in India's major Indian newspapers appearing regularly. ------------------------------------ Indian Express Monday, October 25, 1999 Tell the Pope how Hindu he is [by] Francois Gautier [...] Danielou notes that the Greek cult of Dionysius, which later became Bacchus with the Romans, is abranch of Shaivism: ``Greeks spoke of India as the sacred territory of Dionysius and even historians of Alexander the Great identified the Indian Shiva with Dionysius and mention the dates and legends of the Puranas''. French philosopher and Le Monde journalist, Jean-Paul Droit, recently wrote in his book The Forgetfulness of India that ``The Greeks loved so much Indian philosophy that Demetrios Galianos had even translated the Bhagavad Gita''. Many western and Christian historians have tried to nullify this Indian influence on Christian and ancient Greece, by saying that it is the West, through the Aryan invasion, and later the onslaught of Alexander the Great on India, which influenced Indian astronomy, mathematics, architecture, philosophy -- and not vice versa. But new archaeological and linguistic discoveries have proved that there never was an Aryan invasion and that there is a continuity from ancient Vedic civilisation to the Saraswati culture. The Vedas, for instance, which constitute the soul of present day Hinduism, have not been composed in 1500 BC, as dear Max Mueller arbitrarily decided, but may go back to 7000 years before Christ, giving Hinduism plenty of time to influence Christianity and older civilisations which preceded it. [...] This article gives the gist of Gautier's forthcoming book, `The Indian Origin of Things' Copyright ? 1999 Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 26 17:47:25 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 10:47:25 -0700 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053007.23782.7822551063572151170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear N Ganesan, > I did not know that you support the hypothesis that Aryans >originated in India. If so, did they spread westward into Iran? >Definitely, intermarriages tookplace, in the MBh. epic - the lady >of the fisherfolks marrying a high varNa man, etc., The swelling of >the number of brahmins by intermarriages is explained in many >scholarly works, Eg., those by Prof. M. Deshpande of UMichigan. The >bhargava and potter relations in Indology archives. Basically I resist from having a personal opinion. My theories are based on the literature that I've read, existing social conditions in India and my perceptions of the psychology and world view of brahmins and non-brahmins. If somebody can prove me wrong, I'm more than willing to accept it. >?From the time of the Upanishads, it's very difficult to support the theory that brahmins were egalitarian (in the conventional sense), that they permitted inter marraige or induction of non-brahmins into the brahmanic fold. For in the Upanishadic period even kshtriyas are mocked at, for being of lower birth. The famous case of SatyakAma JabAla is often misinterpreted by secular and egalitarian historians and philosophers. For the actual tradition interprets it as "only a brahmana is capable of adhering to the truth in all circumstances". And according to the tradition, the brahmana is always a brahmana by birth. And in the PurAnic and the SUtrA period, the caste system had indeed become iron clad and apparently has continued till the present day. So if any such induction or inter marraiges had taken place freely, it must have been before the Upanishadic period. And even then there's not so much hard evidence that such things really happened. Ofcourse, Veda VyAsa himself though born of a brAhmana and a fisherwoman is recognized as a brAhmana. But even those who were born of a "higher" combination, are not given such recognition. Such cases are exceptions and one cannot make theories out of them. >I vaguely remember you said once that the difference in color amidst >Indians is due to "tropical sun". I think the color difference cannot >be explained this way. Just a matter of opinion, I guess. Infact since coming over to the US, I've seen a lot of non-brahmin Tamils who have started becoming fairer due to the colder climate. It's my firm opinion that physical attributes are intimately linked with climatic conditions, occupation, diet and other factors related to the environs. >Also note that the Vadakalai don't intermarry with the Tenkalai. > I personally know some weddings where vaDa- & then-kalai ayyangars >have married; In the Hindu newspaper marital ads, increasing are >the annoucements that "kalai" difference does not matter. Given the fact that they were numerically small, I'm surprised that the Iyengars have been able to manage marital relations only inside their fold for so long. So it's not surprising that the kalai difference is breaking down. Plus modern education, secular and egalitarian environment has also had an effect on the system. But the differences still exist. I personally know a Tenkalai friend who's still having a hard time finding a groom for his sister. >>I now quote from Prof.N.Subrahmanian (The Brahmin in the Tamil >>country,p31). >Mr Chandran:> This is no proof for the authenticity of such claims. >Now in his 80s, Prof. N. Subrahmanyan comes from a reputed >family of Tamil Smarthas who have produced many Sanskrit and >Tamil scholars; he was called Historian of the Tamils >by K. A. Nilakanta Sastri when NS wrote the book, History of Tamil >Nadu. N. Subrahmanyan edited a campu work in Sanskrit >sung on Anandarangam Pillai who kept a daily diary running into >volumes in late 1700s and served as a Dubhashi/interpreter for >the French governor, Dupleuix. From the mother's side, Prof. NS' >uncle is V. K. Suryanarayana Sastri. However great a scholar might be, there's still room for error - something overlooked, something misinterpreted. Especially since the AI theory was once considered valid and there's possibility that such preconceptions might have colored their views. Plus, I've also read the book and my first gut instinct was that the author was not sympathetic to brahmins - I initially thought he might not be a brahmin himself. Anyway, even if I'm mistaken, there's still room for error, misinterpretation etc >What generally starts out as a suggestion, generally gets blown out >of proportion. Later the origin is forgotten and finally you have >people suggesting Dravidian loan words in the Rg Veda! > Great Indologists have always written that Dravidian loans >exist in RV, esp. in maNDalas 1 & 10. Same defence as above. >As for Ramanujacharya's conversions, even a milleneum later >the smarthas still remember! And they don't accept Iyengars as >true brahmins. > I do not see Aiyangars or Tamils accepting your opinion that >Aiyangars are not brahmins. It's not my opinion, but the general smartha opinion. Likewise, the Iyergars don't accept the smarthas. The feeling is mutual. But given the fact that they're the older sampradhAyam, the smarthas have a better claim than the VaishnavAs. >But are the SivAchAryas authenticated as brahmins? And even if they >are, do they inter marry with non-brahmins? > Adhisaiva Sivacharyas are true brahmins because they preserved/added >to the entire corpus of Saiva aagamas. Always, saiva aagama >publications are based on the mss. from those Sivachariyar homes. >For their marriage habits, pl. read the 12th century PeriyapuraaNam >of Sundarar. Can you give a brief account on this? > There is enough evidence, both from Skt. and Tamil sources, >that brahmins' numbers increased manyfold by intermarrying with >Dravidians in ancient India and later. Please enlighten me with this evidence. And it is my firm opinion that Western scholarship and even Indian scholarship inspired by the former, has not really been able to grasp the true significance of the caste system (one exception that I've come across are the works of Ananda Coomaraswamy). Too much is read into "Aryan", "top caste", "varna" etc. Further egalitarian, secular and democratic movements of the last two centuries has also prevented a correct evaluation of the system. The fundamental problem I think, which Manu would endorse, lies in the inherent nature of the people itself. Can a tiger truly understand the world view of a cow? With such a misreading I'm not surprised at the prevailing attitude towards the varnAshramadharma. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 26 18:04:07 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 11:04:07 -0700 Subject: Fwd from RISA-L Message-ID: <161227053009.23782.14545458654729367215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * From: jkirk at micron.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: jkirk at micron.net Well, it's quite possible that these european apologists for Hindutva are perceived by VHP types as "Aryans" who dispute the invasion theory. The apologists might be ethnic chauvinists in their own political milieux. This kind of chauvinism is currently afflicting France and also Belgium. JK *********************** >The mystery is: why does Hindutva need foreign writers like Elst >and Gautier? And why do these persons lend themselves for this? > >RZ ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 26 19:50:06 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 12:50:06 -0700 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053013.23782.2700814633072770550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Basically I resist from having a personal opinion. My theories are >based on the literature that I've read, existing social >conditions in India and my perceptions of the psychology and world >view of brahmins and non-brahmins. If somebody can prove me wrong, >I'm more than willing to accept it. >From the time of the Upanishads, it's very difficult to support >the theory that brahmins were egalitarian (in the conventional >sense), that they permitted inter marraige or induction of >non-brahmins into the brahmanic fold. For in the Upanishadic period >even kshtriyas are mocked at, for being of lower birth. 200 years of philological work and the summaries by current Indologists tell a lot on the date of the Rig Veda, Aryan intrusion, real purport/meaning of varnashrama system, ... An example: For the intermingling of different peoples in ancient India, pl. read: Madhav M. Deshpande, Aryans, Non-Aryans and Brahmanas: Processes of Indigenization, J. of IE studies, 1993, v. 21. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From tawast at ST1798.SPB.EDU Tue Oct 26 09:45:20 1999 From: tawast at ST1798.SPB.EDU (Sergey S.Tawaststjerna) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 13:45:20 +0400 Subject: TretA etymology Message-ID: <161227053000.23782.15356064627781179876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list member! The etymology of "tretA" is "tri", but what is the etymology of the numeral "tri"? Probably, the tibetan tranlators find the answer in Yaska's Nirukta (3.10): "eka itA saMkhyA, dvau drutatarA saMkhyA, trayas tIrNatamA saMkhyA....etc." Yours S.Tawaststjerna From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Wed Oct 27 00:04:12 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 14:04:12 -1000 Subject: Seeking information about "Sarasvati vandana" Message-ID: <161227053020.23782.1512384117227176901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been trying to find the exact words of the well-known "Sarasvati vandana" which begins: yA kundEndu tushAra hAra dhavaLA yA shubhra vastrA vrtA I searched the web and Usenet and found two different versions, neither of them convincingly authoritative. If anyone here knows the exact words, could they please post it? A translation would also be greatly appreciated. Also, what is the origin of the "Sarasvati vandana", i.e., who composed it or which text does it come from? Thanks in advance, Raja. From 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM Tue Oct 26 19:03:19 1999 From: 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 15:03:19 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053011.23782.17269331532506162689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, I am working on a textual analysis of two works by the Buddhist philosopher Candrakiirti. One of my texts is his Prasannapadaa, which exists in Sanskrit editions and a Tibetan translation from the eleventh century AD by the Tibetan ba tshab lotsaba. My other text is his Madhyamakaavataara (kaarikaa + bhaas.ya), which now only exists in Tibetan translation produced by the same translator. I am now considering how to combine textual work on these texts - one in Sanskrit/Tibetan, the other only in Tibetan. Susumu Yamaguchi has published a complete Sanskrit-Tibetan / Tibetan-Sanskrit word index for the Prasannapadaa. Since Madhyamakaavataara was translated by the same translator as Prasannapadaa, I feel there is an adequate textual basis for comparing the terminology of the two texts. The problem rather is how to work with the Tibetan syntax of Madhyamakaavataara. May one at all try to consider its original (and now lost) Sanskrit syntax, and how may one do so? To which extent can one compare two texts originally by the same author, but now preserved in different languages. I would now like to ask: Would anyone dare to suggest any guiding principles that I may use when comparing the two texts? Can anyone suggest literature dealing with such problems? Can anyone suggest successful attempts of comparing Sanskrit-Tibetan material, which may serve as a model for my research? Your comments do not necessarily have to be restricted to the Sanskrit-Tibetan issue. I am most interested in the problematic in general - are there, for example, similar cases with Tamil-Sanskrit text editions, or the like (and which principles are then used in such cases)? With best regards, Ulrich T. Kragh From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 26 23:49:10 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 16:49:10 -0700 Subject: Fwd from RISA-L Message-ID: <161227053018.23782.10846465713697590746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In posing this question, Dr. Zydenbos has unwitingly vindicated Dr. Elst. As an Indian, I know that many of my countrymen (including Hindutva-vaadis) consider the opinion of western scholars more trustworthy than those of Indians--> the result of a deep seated inferiority complex. And this is what Dr. S. R. Rao had sought to dispel when he referred to 'these whites'. Therefore, conjuring images of Nazism in this context by Dr. Zydenbos was outright slander (arising out of a misunderstanding, if not malice), despite his denials to the contrary last month. And so, the expose of Dr. Elst is quite in place and justified. More so because the article of Dr. Zydenbos falls within a pattern of slander of academics or non-Academics perceived as sympathetic to Hindutva. Discussion on AIT is banned on the list and so I will refrain from commenting further on this issue although others might have done so. Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Swaminathan Madhuresan Subject: Fwd from RISA-L Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:04:07 -0700 >The mystery is: why does Hindutva need foreign writers like Elst >and Gautier? And why do these persons lend themselves for this? > >RZ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Oct 27 00:38:01 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 20:38:01 -0400 Subject: SARAI: job posting Message-ID: <161227053022.23782.3925789927663863293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the JOBS & POSITIONS section of SARAI. Please contact posters directly for any further information. ================================================================ From: "Kranick, Brian" Subject: South Asian Language Interpreters Needed Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:56:17 -0400 Berlitz GlobalNET is searching for individuals who may be interested in working as freelance interpreters for our company. We are especially looking for individuals all over the United States who may speak various South Asian languages. Some of the languages we currently need in particular are Bhutanese, Baluchi, Bengali, Burmese, Gujarati, Kannada, Malayalam, Marathi, Nepali, Sinhalese, Sindhi, Tamil, Telegu, and Tibetan (although speakers of other languages are encouraged to inquire also.) The work offers a very competitive hourly pay rate, and the schedule is flexible (so you could work as much or as little depending on your current schedule). Interpreter candidates should also be either U.S. citizens or permanent residents. For more information, please contact: Brian Kranick 1-888-241-9149 ext.117 brian.kranick at dc.berlitz.com fax: 202-496-0868 From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Oct 27 00:50:06 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 20:50:06 -0400 Subject: SARAI: another job announcement Message-ID: <161227053023.23782.10602863800987920527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the JOBS & POSITIONS section of SARAI. Please contact posters directly as indicated for any further information. (SARAI is at: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai) ====================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:13:18 +0100 From: Clinton Seely Subject: Urdu position ad The Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations at the University of Chicago invites applications for a position in Urdu at the Lecturer or Senior Lecturer level (that is, a 3-year or 5-year renewable appointment). The position will begin in Fall 2000 or Fall 2001. It is anticipated that the person appointed will have a completed or near-completed Ph.D. in a relevant area of Urdu literature or linguistics, prior experience of teaching Urdu to non-native speakers at both beginning and advanced levels, and the ability to teach Hindi occasionally at the beginning level. Preference will be given to candidates with demonstrated excellence in teaching, and familiarity with contemporary methods and techniques of language instruction. An application letter, three references, and a current c.v. should be sent to: Urdu Search Committee, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations, University of Chicago, Foster Hall, 1130 E.59th Street, Chicago IL 60637-1543. Fax 773-834-3254 (l-burns at midway.uchicago.edu). From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Oct 27 01:05:05 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 21:05:05 -0400 Subject: SARAI: yet another job announcement Message-ID: <161227053025.23782.11172007104295970035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the Jobs & Positions section of SARAI. Please contact posters directly as below for any further information. ================================================= From: "Stuart Blackburn" Subject: Re: Urdu post at SOAS SCHOOL OF ORIENTAL AND AFRICAN STUDIES University of London Lectureship in Urdu Vacancy 99/76 Applications are invited for a Lectureship in Urdu in the Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia at the School of Oriental and African Studies. The key responsibilities will include teaching and research in Urdu language and literature and the Islamic culture of India and Pakistan. Applicants should have completed or be very close to completing, a PhD on a relevant subject, and provide evidence of an ability to produce research of a high quality. The successful candidate should be competent to teach Urdu to non-native speakers and be able to contribute to English-based courses on South Asian literatures and cultures. The appointment will date from 1 September 2000, but could begin earlier if a suitable candidate is available. It will be for five years initially. It will be made on Lecturer A scale (#17,238-#22,579 p.a.) or Lecturer B scale (#23,521-30,065 p.a.), depending on qualifications and experience, plus London Allowance, currently #2,134 p.a. Membership of USS will be available. An application form and further particulars may be obtained from the Personnel Office, School of Oriental and African Studies, Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square, London WC1H 0XG (tel: 0171 691 3400, fax no. 0171 636 2779, E-mail address: personnel at soas.ac.uk). Overseas candidates may apply directly by letter supported by a full curriculum vitae, and the names, addresses, fax, telephone numbers, and where possible e-mail addresses, of three referees. Closing date: Wednesday 1 December 1999 SOAS is an equal opportunities employer and welcomes applications from the disabled, ethnic minorities and women. From pfreund at MUM.EDU Wed Oct 27 02:14:15 1999 From: pfreund at MUM.EDU (Peter Freund) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 21:14:15 -0500 Subject: Unpublished ShikshAs Message-ID: <161227053027.23782.14114748869841411457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> K. Parameswara Aithal, author of Veda-Lakshana: Vedic Ancillary Literature has created an enormous research resource, identifying all the principal and peripheral texts (some 1650 in all) in the field of phonetics and Vedic recitation. In the field of ShikshA alone, Aithal counts approximately 50 different texts published and (more or less) available. Among the unpublished ShikshA texts, he has brought attention in his introduction to 18 Shiksha texts--he says, "I intend to take up the work of editing the following (mostly unpublished) ShikshAs:" He lists some very interesting titles, including Atreya ShikshA, LaugAkshi ShikshA, KaushikI ShikshA, CArAyaNIya ShikshA, and Svaravyanjana ShikshA. Has Dr. Aithal so far published any of these ShikshAs? Does anyone know his e-mail address or mailing address? Thanks, Peter Freund From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Oct 26 22:11:48 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 23:11:48 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053015.23782.7762036652585210093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ulrich Kragh wrote: > Would anyone dare to suggest any guiding principles that I may use when > comparing the two texts? > Can anyone suggest literature dealing with such problems? > Can anyone suggest successful attempts of comparing Sanskrit-Tibetan > material, which may serve as a model for my research? Gajin Nagao's reconstruction of the Mahayana Samgraha uses this approach. He had gathered together all the parallel passages from works surviving in Sanskrit and then using his Sanskrit expertise created his reconstruction. One may wonder, of course, why bother -- what can be gained from this apart from possible lexicographical benefits ? Have you also collated all five existing Tibetan editions -- a sine non qua for any serious textual work. Citations in early translations or mss will also be useful -- especially if they have not be "revised" too efficiently. Also, you might like to bear in mind that there IS an extant Sanskrit copy of the Madhyamakaavataara held by the Chinese (stolen from Tibet) -- but you have a cat's chance in hell of ever getting access to it at present -- but perhaps if you are still young .... Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Wed Oct 27 07:59:00 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 02:59:00 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work In-Reply-To: <00c101bf1fff$3ca48640$e1dc883e@default> Message-ID: <161227053029.23782.16412998940301027334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Also, you might like to bear in mind that there IS an extant Sanskrit >copy of the Madhyamakaavataara held by the Chinese What is your source for this? There have been a number of claims (some by the Chinese, some by others) that the Chinese have - but are not making available to Western scholars - numerous Sanskrit manuscripts of texts otherwise no longer extant in Sanskrit (e.g., I have heard reports that they have a complete Sanskrit edition of the Yogacarabhumi sastra). The Chinese claim some of these are the originals brought to China by Xuanzang during the early Tang dynasty. That seems unlikely, however. Is there any reliable inventory of such Sanskrit texts currently held by the Chinese? Dan Lusthaus From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Wed Oct 27 10:04:33 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 05:04:33 -0500 Subject: Roman Numerals In-Reply-To: <19991027084410.19352.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053036.23782.6045208010989532847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Egyptians used 23 symbols to write 986. How many symbols did Romans use to >write this number? CMDCCCVI Dan Lusthaus From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Oct 27 10:25:42 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 06:25:42 -0400 Subject: Seeking information about "Sarasvati vandana" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053040.23782.11567474914773770108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is the text of the verse you requested: yaa kundendutu.saarahaaradhavalaa yaa zubhravastraav.rtaa yaa vii.naavarada.n.dama.n.ditakaraa yaa zvetapadmaasanaa / yaa brahmaacyutazankaraprabh.rtibhir devais sadaa vanditaa saa maam paatu sarasvatii bhagavatii ni.hze.sajaa.dyaapahaa // Best, Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Narayan S. Raja wrote: > I have been trying to find the exact words of > the well-known "Sarasvati vandana" which begins: > > yA kundEndu tushAra hAra dhavaLA > yA shubhra vastrA vrtA > > > I searched the web and Usenet and found two > different versions, neither of them convincingly > authoritative. > > If anyone here knows the exact words, could they > please post it? A translation would also be > greatly appreciated. > > Also, what is the origin of the "Sarasvati vandana", > i.e., who composed it or which text does it come from? > > Thanks in advance, > > > Raja. > From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Wed Oct 27 12:28:31 1999 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 08:28:31 -0400 Subject: Roman Numerals---Three Different Answers Message-ID: <161227053047.23782.17341263319345146646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> " ... not that this would be in any way related to Indology " Well, doesn't it show that the Hindu ("Arabic") numeral system is, at least in this respect, much more efficient (and more clear) than the Roman and the Egyptian systems? George Cronk Philosophy & Religion Bergen Community College (NJ) ----- Original Message ----- From: birgit kellner To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 8:23 AM Subject: Re: Roman Numerals---Three Different Answers > Katharina Kupfer wrote: > > > Certainly no, correct is: > > CMDCCCVI > > > > Kailash Srivastava wrote: > > > >> The following are three different replies to my question as to how > >> Romans > >> wrote 986!!! > >> > >> CMIICVI > >> > >> CMDCCCVI > >> > >> CMVCCCVI > >> > >> Was it possible to write the same number in three different ways? > >> > > > > No, but here's a fourth, and unless I've left my mind at home, this > should now be the correct one - the number "986" is correctly written as > CMLXXXVI, to be resolved as "nine hundred" (CM) plus "fifty" (L) plus > "thirty" (XXX) plus "five" (V) plus "one" (I). There seems to be a > tendency to confuse fifty (L) with five hundred (D) or five (V). > > ... not that this would be in any way related to Indology ... > > regards, > -- > Birgit Kellner > Institut f. Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Institute for Tibetan and > Buddhist Studies > Universitaet Wien / Vienna University From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Wed Oct 27 07:09:08 1999 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 09:09:08 +0200 Subject: Unpublished ShikshAs In-Reply-To: <38165FF7.8611EB2F@mum.edu> Message-ID: <161227053030.23782.17437672347513003771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 26 Oct 99, at 21:14, Peter Freund wrote: > K. Parameswara Aithal [...], Does anyone know his e-mail > address or mailing address? b56 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de From se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 27 10:44:10 1999 From: se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (Kailash Srivastava) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 10:44:10 +0000 Subject: Roman Numerals Message-ID: <161227053034.23782.5102577458803901825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Egyptians used 23 symbols to write 986. How many symbols did Romans use to write this number? Thanx/Kailash Srivastava ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Oct 27 14:50:29 1999 From: 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 10:50:29 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053052.23782.12498652707392109259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Stephen Hodge wrote] >Gajin Nagao's reconstruction of the Mahayana Samgraha uses this >approach. He had gathered together all the parallel passages from >works surviving in Sanskrit and then using his Sanskrit expertise >created his reconstruction. I have searched without luck for this work by Nagao. Do you have a bibliographical reference? >One may wonder, of course, why bother -- >what can be gained from this apart from possible lexicographical >benefits ? My interest is not to simply reconstruct the original Sanskrit of Madhyamakaavataara from the extant Tibetan translation. Rather, I am investigating the prasan.ga method of Candrakiirti and I here wish to use material from both the Sanskrit edition of his Prasannapadaa and the extant Tibetan text of Madhyamakaavataara. To use two texts originally by the same author, but now only extant in two different languages involves linguistic problems. Sanskrit scholars have so far focused on Prasannapadaa, since this text is available in Sanskrit, while Tibetan scholars have focused on Madhyamakaakavataara being only available in Tibetan. I wish to use both texts - which in practice means that I somehow have to unite these two fields of scholars. This requires some established linguistic/hermeneutical principles for working with / comparing the two texts. It is these principles that I am trying to get suggestions for here from the Indology list-members. (And I am still hoping for more suggestions for principles from the rest of you . . .) I believe this endeavour is very worthwhile for our Madhyamaka scholarship, as it would allow scholars to use both of these texts on an acceptable academic level. >Have you also collated all five existing Tibetan editions? I presume you mean of the Madhyamakaavataara? I am aware of the bstan 'gyur editions of Peking (two different translations of the kaarikaa + one edition of the bhaas.ya), Derge, Narthang, and Cone. Are these the five editions that you are thinking of? I am, however, not in possession of any mss printed/written independently of these bstan 'gyur collections; are you aware of any? >Also, you might like to bear in mind that there IS an extant Sanskrit >copy of the Madhyamakaavataara held by the Chinese (stolen from >Tibet) -- but you have a cat's chance in hell of ever getting access >to it at present -- but perhaps if you are still young .... [To which Dan Lusthaus added:] >What is your source for this? Yes, I have also heard these rumours from a number of scholars (e.g. Anne Macdonnald, who currently does text-critical work on the Prasannapadaa). During the cultural revolution, the Chinese brought a large amount of Tibetan mss from Tibet to Beijing. Among these mss were also numerous Sanskrit works preserved in Tibet since the translations were made back in the 11th century onwards. These texts have this year been returned to Tibet, where they are now kept at Norbu Lingka in Lhasa. The Chinese are said to have microfilmed all the mss before returning them. According to the rumour (which seems reliable), there are eye-wittness reports from Chinese scholars that there exists at least one - possibly several - Sanskrit mss of Madhyamakaavataara. However, there exists no official records of these mss. The Chinese officially deny these reports, but nevertheless let new Sanskrit mss of various texts surface once in a while. It seems to be politically motivated. And yes - I am still young (just thirty years old), but I unfortunately cannot put my research on hold until any such legendary ms surfaces. So, I am back in the problem of having to use a Tibetan edition in my otherwise Sanskrit oriented research. Any suggestions? With best regards, Ulrich T. Kragh. From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Wed Oct 27 16:01:12 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 11:01:12 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work In-Reply-To: <199910271052_MC2-8A8E-4EBB@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <161227053054.23782.13219749752635112853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Yes, I have also heard these rumours from a number of scholars (e.g. Anne >Macdonnald, who currently does text-critical work on the Prasannapadaa). >During the cultural revolution, the Chinese brought a large amount of >Tibetan mss from Tibet to Beijing. Birgit, there is a rumor that Steinkellner, along with some of his students/colleagues, had been granted some access to the Chinese Skt. materials - or at least that there was supposed to be some Vienna-Xi'an connection. Can you confirm any of this? Or set the record straight? Dan Lusthaus From k.kupfer at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Wed Oct 27 10:01:52 1999 From: k.kupfer at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Katharina Kupfer) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 11:01:52 +0100 Subject: Roman Numerals Message-ID: <161227053038.23782.5098029755695975005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Eight: CMVCCCVI KK Kailash Srivastava wrote: > Egyptians used 23 symbols to write 986. How many symbols did Romans use to > write this number? > > Thanx/Kailash Srivastava > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- ...................................................................................... Katharina Kupfer M.A. http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/kkupfer.htm Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft : Tel. +- 49 - 69 - 798 23 139 Universitaet Frankfurt : Fax +- 49 - 69 - 798 22 873 PF 11 19 32 : k.kupfer at em.uni-frankfurt.de D - 60054 Frankfurt http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/tocharic/tht.htm From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Wed Oct 27 16:04:16 1999 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 12:04:16 -0400 Subject: Roman Numerals---Three Different Answers Message-ID: <161227053059.23782.11601176633927135968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Got it! GC ----- Original Message ----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 11:42 AM Subject: Re: Roman Numerals---Three Different Answers > On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, george9252 wrote: > > > Well, doesn't it show that the Hindu ("Arabic") numeral system is, at least > > in this respect, much more efficient (and more clear) than the Roman and the > > Egyptian systems? > > Aargh. That is a real old chestnut. It all depends on what you are used > to, and what you are doing. > > I + II = III > or > CXI + IX = CXX > > are certainly simpler than > > 1 + 2 = 3 > or > 111 + 9 = 120 > > There are other operations which make me blench in Roman, which I am very > used to doing in Hindu-Arabic. But the main point is that all these > systems are and were embedded in educational systems which interpreted > them and made them usable. Their "ease" "efficiency" etc. can only be > judged (if at all) by examining the ... [drum roll] social context of > their use. > > Best, > Dominik > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list From ebashir at UMICH.EDU Wed Oct 27 16:04:39 1999 From: ebashir at UMICH.EDU (E. Bashir) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 12:04:39 -0400 Subject: Roman Numerals---Three Different Answers In-Reply-To: <19991027110253.32289.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053058.23782.5853285091682556158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> None of these three is correct. The Roman numeral system uses the principles of both subtraction and addition. The basic symbols are: I = 1 V = 5 X = 10 L = 50 C = 100 D = 500 M = 1000 Thus 986 should be: CMLXXXVI (1000-100) + 50 + (3 x 10) + 5 + 1 ************************************************************************** Elena Bashir, Ph.D. 3070 Frieze Bldg. Lecturer in Urdu and Hindi The University of Michigan Dept. of Asian Languages and Cultures Ann Arbor, MI 48109 Phone: 734-763-9178 Dept. Phone: 734-764-8286 (messages only) Fax: 734-647-0157 ************************************************************************** On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Kailash Srivastava wrote: > The following are three different replies to my question as to how Romans > wrote 986!!! > > CMIICVI > CMDCCCVI > > CMVCCCVI > > Was it possible to write the same number in three different ways? > > Thanx/Kailash > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 27 19:59:40 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 12:59:40 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053075.23782.10160458250440813674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Kragh, Comparing a 6th century Tamil work with a Kashmiri text, reconstruction effort was pursued once. 1. Donald A. Nelson, The Brhatkatha: a reconstruction from BrhatkathaslOkasmgraha, PeruGkatai and Vasudevahimdi PhD thesis, 1974, Univ. of Chicago. Nelson published a paper in J. of Asian Studies, (I do not have the reference right now). 2. R. Vijayalakshmy, A study of the Perunkatai, an authentic version of the story of Udayana. Int. Inst. of Tamil Studies, Madras, 1981 Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 27 13:02:53 1999 From: se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (Kailash Srivastava) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 13:02:53 +0000 Subject: Roman Numerals---Three Different Answers Message-ID: <161227053041.23782.3466511504470857403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following are three different replies to my question as to how Romans wrote 986!!! CMIICVI CMDCCCVI CMVCCCVI Was it possible to write the same number in three different ways? Thanx/Kailash ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From k.kupfer at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Wed Oct 27 12:08:49 1999 From: k.kupfer at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Katharina Kupfer) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 13:08:49 +0100 Subject: Roman Numerals---Three Different Answers Message-ID: <161227053044.23782.11976094194006622730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Certainly no, correct is: CMDCCCVI Kailash Srivastava wrote: > The following are three different replies to my question as to how Romans > wrote 986!!! > > CMIICVI > > CMDCCCVI > > CMVCCCVI > > Was it possible to write the same number in three different ways? > > Thanx/Kailash > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- ...................................................................................... Katharina Kupfer M.A. http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/kkupfer.htm Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft : Tel. +- 49 - 69 - 798 23 139 Universitaet Frankfurt : Fax +- 49 - 69 - 798 22 873 PF 11 19 32 : k.kupfer at em.uni-frankfurt.de D - 60054 Frankfurt http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/tocharic/tht.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU Wed Oct 27 19:15:24 1999 From: nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU (Naseem Hines) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 14:15:24 -0500 Subject: Source of the story In-Reply-To: <19991026234911.89661.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053069.23782.16802065054280927531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Recently one of my collegues showed me a comic book version of the story in which two women who were fighting over a child were brought to the court of King Solomon. Each woman claimed to be the mother of the child. King Solomon gave his decision that the child may be cut in two and each woman be given her half. One of the women immediately said that she did not want her share. She would rather the other woman have the baby all to herself. At this point there was no doubt which of the women was the child's mother really. Scholars believe that this story may have come to the Near Eastern Canon from the east, India in particular. In the Shii Islamic canon, I have read a similar story, however, in that version, Hazrat Ali was the judge instead of King Salomon. I also remember this story from Ramanujan's 'Folk Tales of India'. Can anyone tell me what may be the origin of this tale? Thanks. Naseem A. Hines Department of Asian and Near Eastern Languages and Literatures Washington University St. Louis, MO. From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Wed Oct 27 12:23:59 1999 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 14:23:59 +0200 Subject: Roman Numerals---Three Different Answers Message-ID: <161227053046.23782.14826860815183622704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Katharina Kupfer wrote: > Certainly no, correct is: > CMDCCCVI > > Kailash Srivastava wrote: > >> The following are three different replies to my question as to how >> Romans >> wrote 986!!! >> >> CMIICVI >> >> CMDCCCVI >> >> CMVCCCVI >> >> Was it possible to write the same number in three different ways? >> > No, but here's a fourth, and unless I've left my mind at home, this should now be the correct one - the number "986" is correctly written as CMLXXXVI, to be resolved as "nine hundred" (CM) plus "fifty" (L) plus "thirty" (XXX) plus "five" (V) plus "one" (I). There seems to be a tendency to confuse fifty (L) with five hundred (D) or five (V). ... not that this would be in any way related to Indology ... regards, -- Birgit Kellner Institut f. Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Universitaet Wien / Vienna University From se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 27 15:08:24 1999 From: se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (Kailash Srivastava) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 15:08:24 +0000 Subject: >" ... not that this would be in any way related to Indology " Message-ID: <161227053049.23782.8547333144792478312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have already said on this list in the begining that I am an electrical engineer by profession. I repeat today that I am not an indologist but as an Indian I find myself deeply interested in Indian stuff. I asked this question just to substantiate the following statement of Albert Einstein. "We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." If people on this list strongly feel that such questions are unproductive for this list, I will, without any second thought, immediately leave this list. Kailash Srivastava ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Oct 27 19:19:52 1999 From: 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 15:19:52 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053071.23782.11479805513835755569.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am based in Copenhagen, Denmark, and it seems that we do not have Nagao's work in Denmark, neither at our Asian department of the University nor at the Danish Royal Library. >If you are ever able to be in London, I could >possibly lend you my set if you cannot get it from Japan. I come to London regularly and might very well take you up on this offer. I will let you know later. Sorry that I am ignorant, but you will have to clarify for me the following references: >There is also the Golden Tenjur MS recently available from China. I have not heard about this Tenjur edition before. From where is it available? >I was not so much thinking of ms tenjurs but possible versions >surviving independently --- has anything turned up at Tabo for example? What is "Tabo"? >For example, I have read a lot of stuff by Long-chen-pa >who quotes it extensively with variants. I am interested. Was that in his mdzod bdun or elsewhere? >There is a possibility that the MAK was translated more than once -- >this certainly is the case with some texts. Yes, Helmuth Tauscher has pointed to two translations of the Madhyamakaavataara Kaarikaa, both of which are available in the Peking Tenjur: the first is by nag tsho tshul khrims rgyal ba in collaboration with kr.s.n.apan.d.ita, while the second (which is later) is by Pa tshab lootsaba in collaboration with TilakakalaSa and Kanakalvarma. The translation by pa tshab is now the one used the most (other Tenjur editions do not contain nag tsho's translation). Pa tshab first used a Kashmirian Sanskrit ms while working with TilakakalaSa in Kashmir, and later edited his translation using an East Indian Sanskrit ms while working with Kanakalvarma in Lhasa, Tibet. It is unclear to me whether Nag tsho only translated the kaarikaa or also the bhaas.ya (in which case his bhaas.ya translation seems to be lost). >Perhaps it is less relevent in this case as the version you want >to use is late, but it might be worth collating quotes from early >Indo-Tibetan authors, possibly based on versions that have not been >revised (if the MAK has been revised). I think this would have to be an important part of such text-critical work, as was also pointed out so well by Birgit Kellner. >Also have you looked through Sankrityayana's list of mss >he noted during his several trips to Tibet before WW2 ? No, although I have heard about Sanskrityayana before, I am not familiar with any list of mss by him. Do you have a reference? >Anyway, though for me personally Chandrakirti is very unappealing as a >person and "thinker", I wish you well with your project. Well, different strokes for different folks, I guess. I have earlier done nine years of scholastic studies with native Tibetan scholars in India, mostly studying Candrakiirti. I personally find his approach very significant. And now a few replies to Birgit Kellner's posting: I absolutely agree with you that I would have to work out the various textual editions to establish a textual basis. This is, of course, fundamental for any text-critical work. I am aware of the publications by Helmuth Tauscher. But once such a critical text has been established in Tibetan, I am still faced with the problems of having a Tibetan text of Madhyamakaavataara, while my other source is in Sanskrit (Prasannapadaa). My project is not to reconstruction Madhyamakaavataara into Sanskrit, but to use these two sources for a study of the Prasan.ga method, which Candrakiirti advocated. What I am searching for is suggestions on how to deal with two sources in two different languages when analyzing a philosophical problem explained in these texts. Thank you very much for the reference to Nils Simonsson. I have already ordered the book from our library. With best wishes, Ulrich T. Kragh Department of Asian Studies University of Copenhagen, Denmark From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Wed Oct 27 13:42:26 1999 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 15:42:26 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053051.23782.6136697246365694112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Ulrich T. Kragh" wrote: > Dear list-members, > I am working on a textual analysis of two works by the Buddhist philosopher > Candrakiirti. One of my texts is his Prasannapadaa, which exists in > Sanskrit editions and a Tibetan translation from the eleventh century AD by > the Tibetan ba tshab lotsaba. My other text is his Madhyamakaavataara > (kaarikaa + bhaas.ya), which now only exists in Tibetan translation > produced by the same translator. > > I am now considering how to combine textual work on these texts - one in > Sanskrit/Tibetan, the other only in Tibetan. Susumu Yamaguchi has published > a complete Sanskrit-Tibetan / Tibetan-Sanskrit word index for the > Prasannapadaa. Since Madhyamakaavataara was translated by the same > translator as Prasannapadaa, I feel there is an adequate textual basis for > comparing the terminology of the two texts. The problem rather is how to > work with the Tibetan syntax of Madhyamakaavataara. May one at all try to > consider its original (and now lost) Sanskrit syntax, and how may one do > so? To which extent can one compare two texts originally by the same > author, but now preserved in different languages. Based on my (meager) knowledge, it seems to me that textual studies of MAV would first of all have to start out with establishing the required textual basis for the Tibetan translations, as there appear to have been different traditions of transmission of this text, canonical as well as extra-canonical (as hinted at for instance in a few publications by Helmut Tauscher). Leaving this issue aside, it seems to me that the principles which are to be applied depend on the goal that you want to pursue: Is this a "textual analysis" that aims for instance at establishing a textual basis for understanding one particular (Indian) author's reading of MAV, so that one would search for the text that was available at a particular point of history, or is it one which aims at primarily securing a textual basis in Sanskrit to a degree sufficient to enable a philosophical interpretation of the text?These are related goals which require partly shared methods, but some require more or less than others ... If reconstruction of a Sanskrit version is indeed what you have in mind, the evidence of their being a translation of a second text by the same author, even if carried out by the same translators, would in my opinion be of highly limited value - much more important is the location of Sanskrit fragments and quotations, since textual arguments, in a manner of speaking, by analogy of "compositional and translational circumstances" require a host of normality-assumptions that lack, in the absence of external evidence over and above certain versions of texts and certain versions of their translations, sufficient guarantees. > Can anyone suggest literature dealing with such problems? A good, and perhaps even the best, starting-point for the methods employed by Tibetan translators in general and their implications for the philological constitution of Sanskrit texts is perhaps Nils Simonsson's "Indo-tibetische Studien. Die Methoden der tibetischen Uebersetzer, untersucht im Hinblick auf die Bedeutung ihrer Uebersetzungen fuer die Sanskrit-Philologie I" (Uppsala 1957). I hope this is of some use to you, regards, -- Birgit Kellner Institut fuer Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Universitaet Wien Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies / Vienna University From KMalkawi at AOL.COM Wed Oct 27 19:44:11 1999 From: KMalkawi at AOL.COM (Katharina Malkawi) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 15:44:11 -0400 Subject: Oriental Inst. Baroda (address request) Message-ID: <161227053073.23782.8200109448021283918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I stayed in Baroda from March 1995 to December 1996. As far as I know, the Head of the Oriental Institut became during this time Prof. Nanavati, my teacher at MS University until then. I do not know, wether you have information about a recent change. But anyway, I am sure, he is happy to help you: Nanavati, R. I. B 103 Rajlakshmi Soc. Old Padra Road BARODA 15 India Tel. - 328932 I do not remember the telephon code. Please be so kind to let me know, wether you need my further help. Sincerely Katharina From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 27 15:42:54 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 16:42:54 +0100 Subject: Roman Numerals---Three Different Answers In-Reply-To: <004d01bf2076$c8ad65e0$d07f0a3f@win95> Message-ID: <161227053056.23782.4823075111915872498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, george9252 wrote: > Well, doesn't it show that the Hindu ("Arabic") numeral system is, at least > in this respect, much more efficient (and more clear) than the Roman and the > Egyptian systems? Aargh. That is a real old chestnut. It all depends on what you are used to, and what you are doing. I + II = III or CXI + IX = CXX are certainly simpler than 1 + 2 = 3 or 111 + 9 = 120 There are other operations which make me blench in Roman, which I am very used to doing in Hindu-Arabic. But the main point is that all these systems are and were embedded in educational systems which interpreted them and made them usable. Their "ease" "efficiency" etc. can only be judged (if at all) by examining the ... [drum roll] social context of their use. Best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Oct 27 17:41:52 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 18:41:52 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053063.23782.2787871557547309416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Ulrich > [Stephen Hodge wrote] > >Gajin Nagao's reconstruction of the Mahayana Samgraha uses this > >approach. He had gathered together all the parallel passages from > >works surviving in Sanskrit and then using his Sanskrit expertise > >created his reconstruction. > > I have searched without luck for this work by Nagao. Do you have a > bibliographical reference? Shodaijoron 2 vols, Kodansha ISBN 06-143784-4 The work is basically in Japanese with a Sanskrit reconstruction of the first two chapters -- the later ones have the kind of annotations that you are probably have in mind so it will perhaps be of interest to you. Where are you based ? If you are ever able to be in London, I could possibly lend you my set if you cannot get it from Japan. > To use two texts originally by the same author, but now only extant in two > different languages involves linguistic problems. Sanskrit scholars have so > far focused on Prasannapadaa, since this text is available in Sanskrit, > while Tibetan scholars have focused on Madhyamakaakavataara being only > available in Tibetan. > >Have you also collated all five existing Tibetan editions? > > I presume you mean of the Madhyamakaavataara? I am aware of the bstan 'gyur > editions of Peking (two different translations of the kaarikaa + one > edition of the bhaas.ya), Derge, Narthang, and Cone. Are these the five > editions that you are thinking of? There is also the Golden Tenjur MS recently available from China -- useful but it does not represent an entirely different stemma. > I am, however, not in possession of any mss printed/written independently > of these bstan 'gyur collections; are you aware of any? I was not so much thinking of ms tenjurs but possible versions surviving independently --- has anything turned up at Tabo for example ? Perhaps it is less relevent in this case as the version you want to use is late, but it might be worth collating quotes from early Indo-Tibetan authors, possibly based on versions that have not been revised (if the MAK has been revised). For example, I have read a lot of stuff by Long-chen-pa who quotes it extensively with variants. There is a possibility that the MAK was translated more than once -- this certainly is the case with some texts. > >Also, you might like to bear in mind that there IS an extant Sanskrit > >copy of the Madhyamakaavataara held by the Chinese (stolen from > >Tibet) -- but you have a cat's chance in hell of ever getting access > >to it at present -- but perhaps if you are still young .... > > [To which Dan Lusthaus added:] > >What is your source for this? > > Yes, I have also heard these rumours from a number of scholars (e.g. Anne > Macdonnald, who currently does text-critical work on the Prasannapadaa). > During the cultural revolution, the Chinese brought a large amount of > Tibetan mss from Tibet to Beijing. Among these mss were also numerous > Sanskrit works preserved in Tibet since the translations were made back in > the 11th century onwards. These texts have this year been returned to > Tibet, where they are now kept at Norbu Lingka in Lhasa. The Chinese are > said to have microfilmed all the mss before returning them. According to > the rumour (which seems reliable), there are eye-wittness reports from > Chinese scholars that there exists at least one - possibly several - > Sanskrit mss of Madhyamakaavataara. However, there exists no official > records of these mss. The Chinese officially deny these reports, but > nevertheless let new Sanskrit mss of various texts surface once in a while. > It seems to be politically motivated. The Chinese definitely stole a lot of Sanskrit mss from various monasteries in Tibet. You are right about the political angle -- very cynical ! Various Japanese scholars have had access to some of this material -- this is mentioned, among other places, in the latest IABS report. Some mss have been illicitly microfilmed and smuggled out of China -- I cannot give more details for obvious reasons but this is factual. There is also a published Chinese catalogue of some 100+ titles which I do not have unfortunately. Also have you looked through Sankrityayana's list of mss he noted during his several trips to Tibet before WW2 ? The whereabouts or fate of these mss is unclear but some of them turned up in India after the Chinese invasion. Though the Chinese are returning some material to Tibet, a lot of it is very haphazard -- the texts are being returned to approved monasteries and not necessarily the ones from where the originally came -- I understand that Tashilhungpo has been one such recipient. Seems like a cosmetic political ploy to fill the monastery shelves to bolster their lies that they protect Tibetan culture. > And yes - I am still young (just thirty years old), but I unfortunately > cannot put my research on hold until any such legendary ms surfaces Yes, I agree but you know "Sod's Law" I presume. I have spoken to a Tibetan who actaully saw in his childhood the partial Tibetan translation of the Maha-vibhasa together with the original Sanskrit -- who knows what became of that ?! Anyway, though for me personally Chandrakirti is very unappealing as a person and "thinker", I wish you well with your project. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Oct 27 17:52:48 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 18:52:48 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053065.23782.13528797064036657510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Dan ! > >Also, you might like to bear in mind that there IS an extant Sanskrit > >copy of the Madhyamakaavataara held by the Chinese > > What is your source for this? There have been a number of claims (some by > the Chinese, some by others) that the Chinese have - but are not making > available to Western scholars - numerous Sanskrit manuscripts of texts > otherwise no longer extant in Sanskrit (e.g., I have heard reports that > they have a complete Sanskrit edition of the Yogacarabhumi sastra). The > Chinese claim some of these are the originals brought to China by Xuanzang > during the early Tang dynasty. That seems unlikely, however. > > Is there any reliable inventory of such Sanskrit texts currently held by > the Chinese? I have replied in general to this msg directly to Ulrich. As I mention there, the Chinese have published a catalogue of some Sanskrit mss. The Japanese seem to have privileged access to some of this material -- perhaps very fat wads of cash is the answer ! Their copy of the YBS is very likely to be the same one that Sankrityayana partly transcribed and partly photographed -- his material is held in Patna at present, as you probably know. By the by, I have never been able to find out what exactly they do have there, not having had the chance to visit. I agree the chances of Xuanzang period mss having survived is highly unlikely but it sounds a good *upaaya* to conceal the true orgin of the mss. Apart from the devastation cause by war -- the An-lu-shan rebellion, the Tibetan and Uighur occupation of Chang-an, the Mongols etc etc. Apart from those events, the Chinese showed very little interest in preserving the originals once they had been translated -- well, not the same interest as we would. They often cut up the mss and sold/used them as talismans or soaked them in water for "medicinal" puposes ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM Wed Oct 27 18:20:46 1999 From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 19:20:46 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053067.23782.3606405871660905019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan, At the IABS conference in Lausanne this Summer I met Yoshiyasu Yonezawa. He told me he had had access to some of the Sanskrit manuscripts in China/Tibet. GenevaIn the abstract for his paper he writes: "Most of Sanskrit palm-leaf manuscripts at Zhalu monastery were transferred to the China Library of the Na-tionalities at Beijing and recently returned to Tibet. (Some of them are currently deposited at the Nor bu gling ga Palace in Lhasa.) A cooperative project of the Institute for Comprehensive Studies of Buddhism at Taisho University with the China Library of Nationalities enabled me to access to the Sanskrit manuscripts transcribed in Tibetan dbu med. The project has been bearing fruit as a series of achievements, i.e., the publications of facsimile editions of the Shraavakabhuumi", the Amoghapaashakalparaaja, and the Abhisamaacaarika-dharma. I would like to inform that the next publication will be "A Collection of Sanskrit Palm-leaf Manuscripts Transcribed in the Tibetan dBu-med" in which the material mentioned above is also included.Times" But this may already be known to you. >Yes, I have also heard these rumours from a number of scholars (e.g. Anne >Macdonnald, who currently does text-critical work on the Prasannapadaa). >During the cultural revolution, the Chinese brought a large amount of >Tibetan mss from Tibet to Beijing. Birgit, there is a rumor that Steinkellner, along with some of his students/colleagues, had been granted some access to the Chinese Skt. materials - or at least that there was supposed to be some Vienna-Xi'an connection. Can you confirm any of this? Or set the record straight? Dan Lusthaus OXFORD, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk or selwyn at dtn.ntl.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1900 bytes Desc: not available URL: From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Wed Oct 27 17:36:39 1999 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 19:36:39 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053061.23782.17834594600501395536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > >Yes, I have also heard these rumours from a number of scholars (e.g. Anne > >Macdonnald, who currently does text-critical work on the Prasannapadaa). > >During the cultural revolution, the Chinese brought a large amount of > >Tibetan mss from Tibet to Beijing. > > Birgit, there is a rumor that Steinkellner, along with some of his > students/colleagues, had been granted some access to the Chinese Skt. > materials - or at least that there was supposed to be some Vienna-Xi'an > connection. Can you confirm any of this? Or set the record straight? > Sorry, I cannot (set the record straight), -- Birgit Kellner Institut fuer Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Universitaet Wien Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies / Vienna University From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Thu Oct 28 02:30:51 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 21:30:51 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053083.23782.5968238822215612050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance, But this may already be known to you. No, this was all knews to me - I didn't make it to the IABS (I went to Japan and Taiwan last summer instead). Thank you very much for that information. I have been trying to hunt that sort of information down through rumors for awhile now. Do you know where Prof. Yonezawa can be reached? Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 379 bytes Desc: not available URL: From SE224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 27 20:27:47 1999 From: SE224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (Kailash Srivastava) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 22:27:47 +0200 Subject: Oriental Inst. Baroda (address request) Message-ID: <161227053077.23782.2994599319980478235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I do not remember the telephon code. 0265 is the code for Baroda. Kailash ----- Original Message ----- From: Katharina Malkawi To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 9:44 PM Subject: Re: Oriental Inst. Baroda (address request) > I stayed in Baroda from March 1995 to December 1996. As far as I know, the > Head of the Oriental Institut became during this time Prof. Nanavati, my > teacher at MS University until then. I do not know, wether you have > information about a recent change. But anyway, I am sure, he is happy to help > you: > > Nanavati, R. I. > B 103 Rajlakshmi Soc. > Old Padra Road > BARODA 15 > India > > Tel. - 328932 > > I do not remember the telephon code. > Please be so kind to let me know, wether you need my further help. > > Sincerely Katharina > From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Oct 27 23:48:55 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 00:48:55 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053079.23782.4414751529569235823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Ulrich > I am based in Copenhagen, Denmark, and it seems that we do not have Nagao's > work in Denmark, neither at our Asian department of the University nor at > the Danish Royal Library. I come to London regularly and might very well take > you up on this offer. I will let you know later. If you come to London, perhaps you are also visiting SOAS -- I am in and out of there frequently. The SOAS library also does not have the Nagao books either. > >There is also the Golden Tenjur MS recently available from China. > I have not heard about this Tenjur edition before. From where is it > available? The Golden Tenjur MS is based on the 'Phying-ba sTag-rtse edition based on the Zha-lu gSer-khang edition, and was prepared under the supervision of Pho-lha-nas bSod-nams sTobs-rgyas. It has been published in an offset edition aand can be obtained via the Institute for Minority & Religion, Ning-xia Academy of Social Science in Yinchuan City. > >I was not so much thinking of ms tenjurs but possible versions > >surviving independently --- has anything turned up at Tabo for example? > What is "Tabo"? Tabo Monastery is in Spiti, Himchal Pradesh. It has the jumbled remnants (35,000 folios) of what was once a very extensive library with many early high-quality mss. There has been an Austro-Italian project to sort, study and microfilm what is there. Prof Steinkellner is involved in the project, I believe. There are also the mss Kanjurs at Tawang (aka O-rgyan-gling edition) in Arunchal Pradesh which are being/have been microfilmed. These editions fall outside the early Narthang collection from which all the printed editions in general derive. I do not have a handlist for the texts included but you might try to find one since these mss include a number of items that are normally relegated to the Tenjur in printed editions. > >For example, I have read a lot of stuff by Long-chen-pa > >who quotes it extensively with variants. > I am interested. Was that in his mdzod bdun or elsewhere? mDzod-bdun and the Ngal-gso sKor-gsum [snip] > >Also have you looked through Sankrityayana's list of mss > >he noted during his several trips to Tibet before WW2 ? > No, although I have heard about Sankrityayana before, I am not familiar > with any list of mss by him. Do you have a reference? There were about three reports by him in the Journal of the Bihar & Orissa Research Society during the late thirties -- I have a photocopy somewhere but at present I cannot tell what years they appeared in -- again, if you come to London and are interested, I am sure we can arrange something. > >Anyway, though for me personally Chandrakirti is very unappealing as a > >person and "thinker", I wish you well with your project. > Well, different strokes for different folks, I guess. I have earlier done > nine years of scholastic studies with native Tibetan scholars in India, > mostly studying Candrakiirti. I personally find his approach very > significant. Indeed, yes. I did not intend a put-down of your work though if we do ever meet, we can discuss the significance of Chandrakirti. Were your native scholars Gelukpas in the main ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Oct 28 00:01:48 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 01:01:48 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053081.23782.8442549893304423242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> L.S. Cousins wrote/quoted: "Most of Sanskrit palm-leaf manuscripts at Zhalu monastery were transferred to the China Library of the Na-tionalities at Beijing and recently returned to Tibet. (Some of them are currently deposited at the Nor bu gling ga Palace in Lhasa.) A cooperative project of the Institute for Comprehensive Studies of Buddhism at Taisho University with the China Library of Nationalities enabled me to access to the Sanskrit manuscripts transcribed in Tibetan dbu med. The project has been bearing fruit as a series of achievements, i.e., the publications of facsimile editions of the Shraavakabhuumi", the Amoghapaashakalparaaja, and the Abhisamaacaarika-dharma. I would like to inform that the next publication will be "A Collection of Sanskrit Palm-leaf Manuscripts Transcribed in the Tibetan dBu-med" in which the material mentioned above is also included." Of course, the biggest collection of Sanskrit mss that was stolen was that located at Sakya. As far as I know, this collection is still inaccesible. This Japanese project is to be welcomed. I suppose Tibetan dBu-med transcripts are better than nothing, though the concept sounds bizarre -- not that I am privileging roman letters over Tibetan script -- but one wonders who has the expertise to transcribe accurately ? The current editorial standards in Chinese-sponsored Tibetan textual work fall short of modern academic requirements -- the Tenjur collated edition published in Chengdu comes to mind. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Oct 28 02:32:27 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 03:32:27 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053088.23782.6108901454965564168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dr. Paul Harrison of the University of Canterbury, gave a paper a few years > ago here in Canberra about the work on the manuscripts in Tabo. (I don't > think it was an Austro-Italian project by the way, maybe New > Zealand-Italian?). No, it definitely was Austro-Italian -- Harrison himself says so in his report on tabo which he kindly sent to me a while back -- I'm sorry I don't have time to dig it out to see where it was published. > I'm sure he has published accounts somewhere by now but do not have > references here. Maybe it would be best to contact him directly. I think he > may be in London about now (Numata Professorship?). Yes, in a few days time he will be giving a series of lectures on early Sukhavati material. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 28 12:35:20 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 05:35:20 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053098.23782.5736056613619263752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there one or more Tibetan versions of GaNDavyUhasUtra? If so, is the tibetan Gv translated into English or some scholarly work on them? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM Thu Oct 28 06:43:39 1999 From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 07:43:39 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053089.23782.17901265778816435101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan, Thank you very much for that information. I have been trying to hunt that sort of information down through rumors for awhile now. Do you know where Prof. Yonezawa can be reached? I have: HelveticaDr Yoshiyasu Yonezawa, 3-11-2-201 Yamate, 273-0045 Funabashi, Chiba, 273-0045 Japan y-yonez at ya2.so-net.ne.jp Best Wishes, Lance ------------- From: L.S. Cousins, Esq., 12 Dynham Place, Headington, Oxford, OX3 7NL CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk or selwyn at dtn.ntl.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 577 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 28 09:13:41 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 10:13:41 +0100 Subject: 40th conference Chennai (fwd) Message-ID: <161227053092.23782.4509081572040353743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:09:44 -0700 From: Prof. Saroja Bhate Subject: 40th conference Chennai The 40th Session of All India Oriental Conference will be held in Chennai(Tamilnadu) from 28th to 30th May 2000. Best wishes Saroja Bhate From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Thu Oct 28 16:23:26 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 11:23:26 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053100.23782.13185235009834441945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Lance -- and all others for the recent spate of information on the Skt mss in Chinese hands. Dan Lusthaus From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Thu Oct 28 00:55:20 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 11:55:20 +1100 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work Message-ID: <161227053086.23782.6755825064766386811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Tabo Monastery is in Spiti, Himchal Pradesh. It has the jumbled >remnants (35,000 folios) of what was once a very extensive library >with many early high-quality mss. There has been an Austro-Italian >project to sort, study and microfilm what is there. Prof Steinkellner >is involved in the project, I believe. Dr. Paul Harrison of the University of Canterbury, gave a paper a few years ago here in Canberra about the work on the manuscripts in Tabo. (I don't think it was an Austro-Italian project by the way, maybe New Zealand-Italian?). I'm sure he has published accounts somewhere by now but do not have references here. Maybe it would be best to contact him directly. I think he may be in London about now (Numata Professorship?). His snail mail address: Dept. of Philosophy and Religious Studies University of Canterbury Private Bag 4800 Christchurch, New Zealand From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Thu Oct 28 19:15:45 1999 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 12:15:45 -0700 Subject: Source of the story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053104.23782.18210155734244295578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> van Buitenen, J.A.B. Tales of Ancient India. Univ of Chicago, story titled "Mahosadha's judgment" The jaataka source on which this translation is based is, as I recall, specified by van Buitenen. >Recently one of my collegues showed me a comic book version of the story >in which two women who were fighting over a child were brought to the >court of King Solomon. Each woman claimed to be the mother of the child. >King Solomon gave his decision that the child may be cut in two and each >woman be given her half. One of the women immediately said that she did >not want her share. She would rather the other woman have the baby all to >herself. At this point there was no doubt which of the women was the >child's mother really. > >Scholars believe that this story may have come to the Near Eastern Canon >from the east, India in particular. > >In the Shii Islamic canon, I have read a similar story, however, in that >version, Hazrat Ali was the judge instead of King Salomon. > >I also remember this story from Ramanujan's 'Folk Tales of India'. Can >anyone tell me what may be the origin of this tale? Thanks. > >Naseem A. Hines >Department of Asian and Near Eastern Languages and Literatures >Washington University >St. Louis, MO. From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Thu Oct 28 11:31:18 1999 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 13:31:18 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work In-Reply-To: <199910280155.LAA16618@anugpo.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227053096.23782.6705522296903176077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dr. Paul Harrison of the University of Canterbury, gave a paper a few > years ago here in Canberra about the work on the manuscripts in Tabo. [...] > I'm sure he has published accounts somewhere by now but do not have > references here. See, e.g., Paul Harrison, "Preliminary Notes on a Gzungs ?dus Manuscript from Tabo", in: Suh.rllekhaa.h. Festgabe fuer Helmut Eimer. Swisttal-Odendorf 1996 (Indica et Tibetica. 28), pp. 49-68. Also: Ernst Steinkellner: "A Report on the `Kanjur? of Ta pho", in: East and West, 44, 1 (1994), pp. 115-136, and other relevant papers in the same issue. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 28 21:28:49 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 14:28:49 -0700 Subject: Fw: Re: Re: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053112.23782.4013139851380547311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N Ganesan writes : > 200 years of philological work and the summaries by current >Indologists tell a lot on the date of the Rig Veda, >Aryan intrusion, real purport/meaning of varnashrama system, ... 195 years of this was without any significant opposition. They just existed on the same preconceptions which do not map to the reality of the social conditions in India and were never contested. I guess it was the case of some professors in Western universities who formed opinions just by reading texts and making a couple of trips to India. Even if they did spend some time in India, there's little chance that they got to interact extensively with orthodox brahmins (who for most part would've avoided them. Probably that's the reason Gough shows so much bias against brahmins). Quite a bit of what was written especially with respect to the "violent" invasion theory over an "advanced" people, is to a great extent guided by intelligent concoction and imagination, and is with little factual base. And as I said before, IMO, most scholars have little idea as to what the varnAshramam system is really about. As to non-brahmin Indians, those who understood the system were generally spiritual saints who never protested against it and were rightly honoured by Brahminism. The few brahmins themselves who condemn it are usually inspired by Western concepts of democracy and equality and are more comfortable leading a Western way of life than adhering to their dharma. To understand the varnAshrama dharma requires right knowledge (of reality), insight into human psychology and vision - which sadly is not in great supply. Indian scholars and those sympathetic to the Indian viewpoint, contesting such views have surfaced only in the past five years or so and already we're witnessing some change. Let's give it a few more years and then decide. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 28 19:42:53 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 15:42:53 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work In-Reply-To: <19991028123520.92104.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053106.23782.7107098223473520086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is there one or more Tibetan versions of GaNDavyUhasUtra? yes, of course, in the Kanjur(s) >If so, is the tibetan Gv translated into English no or some >scholarly work on them? yes; I cannot spend the time to give you a bibliography; of course, most is in Japanese. A complete Japanese translation from Skt was published several years ago by KAJIYAMA Yuichi et al. Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520 tel. 203-432-0828 From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 28 19:47:17 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 15:47:17 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work In-Reply-To: <199910271520_MC2-8AA8-9899@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <161227053108.23782.13997536895994522239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One can obtain free of charge (postage only) the following from the publisher: An Index to Asa?ga's Mah?y?nasa?graha. Part One: Tibetan-Sanskrit-Chinese. Part Two: Sanskrit-Tibetan-Chinese. Studia Philologica Buddhica, Monograph Series 9 (Tokyo: The International Institute of Buddhist Studies, 1994). 2 volumes. One can order (from Denmark it should not seem too expensive!): Sh?daij?ron Wayaku to ch?kai (J?) ???????_?E?a???????? (??) [An annotated Japanese translation of the Mah?y?nasa?graha, Part I, chapters 1-2]. Indo Koten Sosho ?C???h???T?p?? (Tokyo: K?dansha ?u?k?-, 1982). Sh?daij?ron Wayaku to ch?kai (Ge) ???????_?E?a???????? (??) [An annotated Japanese translation of the Mah?y?nasa?graha, Part II, chapters 3-10]. Indo Koten S?sho ?C???h???T?p?? (Tokyo: K?dansha ?u?k?-, 1987). Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520 tel. 203-432-0828 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1991 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Thu Oct 28 10:39:47 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 16:09:47 +0530 Subject: Fwd from RISA-L In-Reply-To: <199910270011.FAA09413@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227053094.23782.15899021797328098893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:49:10 PDT, Vishal Agarwal wrote: > In posing this question, Dr. Zydenbos has unwitingly vindicated Dr. Elst. As > an Indian, I know that many of my countrymen (including Hindutva-vaadis) > consider the opinion of western scholars more trustworthy than those of > Indians--> the result of a deep seated inferiority complex. And this is what > Dr. S. R. Rao had sought to dispel when he referred to 'these whites'. If you consider Dr. Elst a trustworthy scholar, then I fear we have little of a basis for a discussion. But however that may be, I hope that you realise that neither I, nor living 'white' scholars (whose arguments can be supported for good reasons by Indians too, mind you) can be held responsible for any such supposed inferiority complex. And through such racialist assumptions and accusations, any earnest discussion (on virtually any subject) is made impossible; this should be clear. (This may be the objective of such accusations.) Please look at the arguments, not at the skin colour etc. of who pronounces them. > Therefore, "Therefore"? > conjuring images of Nazism in this context by Dr. Zydenbos was > outright slander (arising out of a misunderstanding, if not malice), despite > his denials to the contrary last month. And so, the expose of Dr. Elst is > quite in place and justified. More so because the article of Dr. Zydenbos > falls within a pattern of slander of academics or non-Academics perceived as > sympathetic to Hindutva. I slandered? Where? We have seen how Dr. Elst failed to answer even the simplest of my queries on this list just a month ago and left the discussion with a huff and a puff and a flimsy accusation of "manipulations", in spite of my making things for his defence easy by offering all the relevant materials online. You appear not to have gone through them and / or not to be interested in an objective evaluation. There once was a notorious political personality who proclaimed that if a lie is repeated often and loudly enough, people start believing it is the truth. (I will refrain from saying who that was; his identity is also not so important.) It is sad to see that you too apparently are following the same course, for reasons best known to yourself. You can believe what you wrote; I can also not stop you from believing that the world is a flat disk resting on the back of a gigantic turtle, if that is what you wish to believe. -- I have provided the materials and pointed out some elementary errors, logical and other, in what the opponent said. That is about the best that a scholar can do. > Discussion on AIT is banned on the list and so I will refrain from > commenting further on this issue although others might have done so. Good idea: do us a favour and follow Dr. Elst's example. (BTW: have you not noticed that the issue was not Aryan migration at all?... Cf. the ensuing discussion on RISA-L, which is available in their online archive [subject: "Sonia Gandhi and the great Aryan myth"]. There I have also given my analysis of why certain people still insist on writing "AIT".) RZ From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 29 01:05:41 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 18:05:41 -0700 Subject: Yadavaprakasa: Information request Message-ID: <161227053114.23782.4025030503121064699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Is there any printed edition of Yadavaprakasa's commentary on the Chhandasutras of Pingala? Any English translation of the Tamil Epic Nilaceci? Thank you in advance Vishal ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Thu Oct 28 15:27:51 1999 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 18:27:51 +0300 Subject: Hindu book, 7000 BCE In-Reply-To: <19991026162132.1284.rocketmail@web301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227053102.23782.2501898184325717746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > French philosopher and Le Monde journalist, Jean-Paul > Droit, recently wrote in his book The Forgetfulness of India > that ``The Greeks loved so much Indian philosophy that > Demetrios Galianos had even translated the Bhagavad Gita''. > > Many western and Christian historians have tried to nullify this > Indian influence on Christian and ancient Greece, by saying... Demetrios Galanos (sic) did indeed translate the Gita into Greek, but Galanos lived in 1760-1833 and has thus nothing to do with ancient Greece. He came to India as a young man as tutor of the children of a Greek merchant living in Calcutta. Later he settled down in Varanasi and lived there studying and translating Sanskrit works until his death. His translations, Gita included, were published in Athens in the 1840s and 1850s. See U. P. Arora (ed), Graeco-Indica. India's Cultural Contacts with the Greek World. In Memory of D. G. (1760-1833), A Greek Sanskritist of Benares. Heritage of Ancient India 26. New Delhi 1991. There is also a French biography of Galanos published in the 1980s. Regards Klaus Klaus Karttunen Institute for Asian and African Studies Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094 From mcclint at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Oct 28 19:44:50 1999 From: mcclint at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Sara McClintock) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 21:44:50 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work In-Reply-To: <199910271520_MC2-8AA8-9899@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <161227053110.23782.1283905216790808651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Also have you looked through Sankrityayana's list of mss >>he noted during his several trips to Tibet before WW2 ? >No, although I have heard about Sanskrityayana before, I am not familiar >with any list of mss by him. Do you have a reference? Raahula Saa.nk.rtyaayana, "Sanskrit Palm Leaf Mss. in Tibet" and "Search for Sanskrit Mss. in Tibet." Journal of the Bihar and Orissa Research Society. Vol. 21, part 1 (1935): pp.21-43; vol. 23, part 1 (1937): pp. 33-52; vol 24, part 4 (1938): pp.137-162. This reference may not be exact in all its elements, but I think it will get you where you want to go. Best wishes, Sara McClintock From cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Fri Oct 29 10:27:09 1999 From: cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (george cardona) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 06:27:09 -0400 Subject: Yadavaprakasa: Information request In-Reply-To: <19991029010542.70617.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053118.23782.13732908729995077674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Indologists, > >Is there any printed edition of Yadavaprakasa's commentary on the >Chhandasutras of Pingala? > Chanda.hsuutrabhaa.syam Yaadavapraaka'sak.rtam, collated and edited from four textual mss by Haridas Sinharay, Calcutta: The Asiatic Society 1977 > >Thank you in advance > >Vishal > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 29 14:24:24 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 07:24:24 -0700 Subject: Panini vs John Backus Message-ID: <161227053125.23782.14341020409742487758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> BNF was originally Backus Normal Form, and renamed as Backus-Naur Form by Donald Knuth of Metafont fame, in order to recognize the contributions of Peter Naur, who pioneered Algol-60 (Algol stands for algorithmic language). Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 29 14:27:01 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 07:27:01 -0700 Subject: -wAlA in Sindhi personal names Message-ID: <161227053127.23782.10371783430029163395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The place names in Sindhi -vali, Gujarati -wArI/warI (Sankalia), Marathi -oli, are derived from a Dr. word for 'village' (tam. paLLi, kan. paLLi/haLLi, tel. palli, kur. pallI DEDR 4018) (cf. Ramasamy Aiyar, Southworth, Parpola) There are many Sindhi persons with names ending with -wAlA. Do the Sindhi -vAlA originally refer to a person from a village, -vali? Do the medieval historical documents from the Sindh support this explanation? And, does this get extended in Punjabi to a person from any place (even though the name of the place itself does not end with -vali)? Eg., LongowAlA, JalianwAla. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 29 15:15:45 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 08:15:45 -0700 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053131.23782.3997155343660232993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Even if they did spend some time in India, there's little >chance that they got to interact extensively with orthodox brahmins >(who for most part would've avoided them. Probably that's the reason >Gough shows so much bias against brahmins). There are several Brahmins who interacted extensively with Europeans. The brahmin assistants of Colin Mackenzie around 1800 AD come to mind. Both brahmin male/female brahmins with good Sanskrit heritage have married Europeans. Eg., Rukmini Devi Arundale and in Asian studies depts. [...] >Infact since coming over to the US, I've seen a lot of non-brahmin >Tamils who have started becoming fairer due to the colder climate. >It's my firm opinion that physical attributes are intimately linked >with climatic conditions, occupation, diet and other factors >related to the environs. Skin pigmentation of Indians does not change with such a rapidity. Many African Americans, even though they have lived for centuries in Canada and USA, remain black in color. Regards, N. Ganesan, PhD ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jrgardn at EMORY.EDU Fri Oct 29 13:09:26 1999 From: jrgardn at EMORY.EDU (John Robert Gardner) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 09:09:26 -0400 Subject: Panini vs John Backus In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991029093313.00d109b0@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053120.23782.2295068127812494263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be very interesting in seeing replies on this matter. Currently my studies, following from my dissertation on the terminology for the self in early Vedic (cf. URI below), are being undertaken at Emory in a course on Artificial Intelligence and Lisp programming (the immediate successor to Fortran, initially built on top of it by John McCarty to accomodate lists which FORTRAN did not). It is a nice exception to the otherwise regrettable norm that Sanskrit is frequently noted as a sourcepoint for many--if not most--of the fundamental underpinnings of AI development. In our text on AI, Sanskrit, Panini, and early theoriests such as Bhartrhari surface-- the text is _Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach_ and in that text it is Backus-Naur Form. I'm not sure of the origins of Naur, but I find it hand as it is a mnenonic to remember the order of priority for the first order logic operators in heirarchy: not, and, or, inference! I would be interested to explore this in detail on this list and resurrect input from those scholars out there that I know have a base in Shatric logic studies and early rhetorical discussions. jr =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-= John Robert Gardner, Ph.D. XML Engineer ATLA-CERTR ------------------------------------------------------------ http://vedavid.org/ http://www.purl.org/CERTR/ On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, . . wrote: > Backus joined IBM as a programmer in 1950. He is the inventor of FORTRAN, > the first high level computer language to be developed. It became > commercially available in 1957. > > In 1959 he invented the BNF, a standard notation to describe the syntax of > a high level programming language. > > At one place, I found BNF to be described as "Backus Naur Form" and at > other as "Backus Normal Form". Which one is correct? > > Panini should be thought of as the forerunner of the modern formal language > theory used to specify computer languages. Why? > > The BNF was discovered independently by John Backus in 1959, but Panini's > notation is equivalent in its power to that of Backus and has many similar > properties. Could anyone provide me any example to substantiate this claim? > > Thanx/Kailash > > Kailash Srivastava > From jrgardn at EMORY.EDU Fri Oct 29 13:10:15 1999 From: jrgardn at EMORY.EDU (John Robert Gardner) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 09:10:15 -0400 Subject: Panini vs John Backus In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991029093313.00d109b0@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053122.23782.2363610525413888625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would also be very interestED in seeing replies on the matter- what an embarrassing typo . . . . =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-= John Robert Gardner XML Engineer ATLA-CERTR ------------------------------------------------------------ http://vedavid.org/ http://www.purl.org/CERTR/ From se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 29 07:33:13 1999 From: se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (. .) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 09:33:13 +0200 Subject: Panini vs John Backus Message-ID: <161227053116.23782.227684192180878005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Backus joined IBM as a programmer in 1950. He is the inventor of FORTRAN, the first high level computer language to be developed. It became commercially available in 1957. In 1959 he invented the BNF, a standard notation to describe the syntax of a high level programming language. At one place, I found BNF to be described as "Backus Naur Form" and at other as "Backus Normal Form". Which one is correct? Panini should be thought of as the forerunner of the modern formal language theory used to specify computer languages. Why? The BNF was discovered independently by John Backus in 1959, but Panini's notation is equivalent in its power to that of Backus and has many similar properties. Could anyone provide me any example to substantiate this claim? Thanx/Kailash Kailash Srivastava From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 29 17:07:43 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 10:07:43 -0700 Subject: Fw: Re: Re: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053137.23782.7411743722969711645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N Ganesan writes : >There are several Brahmins who interacted extensively with Europeans. >The brahmin assistants of Colin Mackenzie around 1800 AD come to mind. >Both brahmin male/female brahmins with good Sanskrit heritage >have married Europeans. Eg., Rukmini Devi Arundale and in Asian studies >depts. There's more to being a brahmin than mere Sanskritic learning. An orthodox brahmin is somebody who lives by the Dharma ShAstrams. The brahmins who live in the city, work for a living etc do not fall in this category. Actually by that very way of life, they just prove that they have not understood the ideal of life set forth in the dharma shAstrams.ShankarAchArya in his dig vijayams is supposed to have deliberately avoided cities, as the denizens of such places were supposed to be too corrupted and beyond all help! Orthodox brahmins still exist in villages in India and live strictly by the dharma. These are the brahmins who truly represent the brahmanic ideal set forth in the scriptures. They are often dirt poor, but in the true brahmanic way go all the way to live their dharma. Let alone interacting with non-brahmins, foreigners etc these brahmins are not too keen to interact with their city bred relatives even. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Oct 29 15:10:09 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 11:10:09 -0400 Subject: SARAI: Sanskrit position announcement Message-ID: <161227053129.23782.9010972903633470568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list of listserv from the ACADEMIC POSITIONS section of SARAI. Please contact posters directly as below for any futher information. ------------------------------- The Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations at the University of Chicago intends to make a one-year appointment (possibly renewable) of a lecturer in Sanskrit beginning in AY 2000-01. *Formal traditional training* and Siromani or comparable degree are required; applications of other candidates cannot be considered. Preference will be given to a specialist in vyakarana, but expertise in (navya)nyaya is highly desirable. Competence in spoken English is essential. Letters (in English or Sanskrit) describing the candidate's sastric training should be sent to: Sanskrit Lecturer Search c/o Pollock Dept. of South Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Chicago 1130 E. 59th St. Chicago, IL 60637 USA Help in bringing this notice to the attention of qualified candidates will be greatly appreciated. From nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU Fri Oct 29 16:22:05 1999 From: nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU (Naseem Hines) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 11:22:05 -0500 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- In-Reply-To: <19991029151545.55239.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053133.23782.3569833098560300143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The 'Vali' of the name of the famous poet Vali Dakani means 'the select, or favourite, or the choice; syn. of 'war(a) of Sanskrit. On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > >Even if they did spend some time in India, there's little > >chance that they got to interact extensively with orthodox brahmins > >(who for most part would've avoided them. Probably that's the reason > >Gough shows so much bias against brahmins). > > There are several Brahmins who interacted extensively with Europeans. > The brahmin assistants of Colin Mackenzie around 1800 AD come to mind. > Both brahmin male/female brahmins with good Sanskrit heritage > have married Europeans. Eg., Rukmini Devi Arundale and in Asian studies > depts. > > [...] > > >Infact since coming over to the US, I've seen a lot of non-brahmin > >Tamils who have started becoming fairer due to the colder climate. > >It's my firm opinion that physical attributes are intimately linked > >with climatic conditions, occupation, diet and other factors > >related to the environs. > > Skin pigmentation of Indians does not change with such a rapidity. > Many African Americans, even though they have lived for centuries > in Canada and USA, remain black in color. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan, PhD > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Fri Oct 29 18:35:49 1999 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 11:35:49 -0700 Subject: Fw: Re: Re: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053141.23782.6108400133834199041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: > Let alone interacting with non-brahmins, foreigners etc these brahmins > are not too keen to interact with their city bred relatives even. You indeed seem to be cocksure about what orthodox brahmins will or will not do... of course you can wallow in your opinions, but if you don't want to drown, I suggest that you read a little bit of Frits Staal, Agehananda Bharati, Wayne Howard, and various others to see the type of interactions they have had with all sorts of gloriously exclusive and orthodox brahmins, including the Namboodiris of Kerala, vaDamaa/dOsamaa etc etc of TN, vaiDikis of Andhra, etc and the S'ankaraacaaryas of the various directions. It seems like a good number of these orthodox brahmins aren't as hidebound as you would have them, particularly in their interaction with people who have a genuine scholarly interest. -Srini. From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 29 19:33:45 1999 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 12:33:45 -0700 Subject: Oni no Kenkyu Message-ID: <161227053147.23782.16810261869265495522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Indology Members: I am looking for information about oni no kenkyu, a trickster like character or type in the Japanese tradition. I understand it has a parallel in the Chinese and possibly in the Indian tradition. Would appreciate help in this matter, thanks in advance, Shrinivas Tilak 4-642 Watt St, Winnipeg, MB, Canada R2K 2S5 (204) 669 4957 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Fri Oct 29 17:51:32 1999 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 13:51:32 -0400 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053139.23782.163923995674890483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Obviously genetics does not alow for such rapid, spontaneous changes in skin colour in a few generations. But Indians tan very quickly, and also lose their tans quickly in northern latitudes. I remeber being teased about having a lily white complexion after staying abroad for just a few months. Lots of men in India tend to get progressively darker as they age because of prolonged exposure, their counterparts in the US would be fairer in comparision. From vaithees at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Fri Oct 29 18:26:42 1999 From: vaithees at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Ravindiran Vaitheespara) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 14:26:42 -0400 Subject: Fw: Re: Re: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- In-Reply-To: <19991029170743.59591.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053143.23782.17048483928232603871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----------------------------- On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, nanda chandran wrote: > N Ganesan writes : > > >There are several Brahmins who interacted extensively with Europeans. > >The brahmin assistants of Colin Mackenzie around 1800 AD come to mind. > >Both brahmin male/female brahmins with good Sanskrit heritage > >have married Europeans. Eg., Rukmini Devi Arundale and in Asian studies > >depts. > > There's more to being a brahmin than mere Sanskritic learning. > > An orthodox brahmin is somebody who lives by the Dharma ShAstrams. The > brahmins who live in the city, work for a living etc do not fall in > this category. Actually by that very way of life, they just prove that they > have not understood the ideal of life set forth in the dharma > shAstrams.ShankarAchArya in his dig vijayams is supposed to have > deliberately avoided cities, as the denizens of such places were supposed to > be too corrupted and beyond all help! > > Orthodox brahmins still exist in villages in India and live strictly by the > dharma. These are the brahmins who truly represent the brahmanic ideal set > forth in the scriptures. They are often dirt poor, but in the true brahmanic > way go all the way to live their dharma. > > Let alone interacting with non-brahmins, foreigners etc these brahmins > are not too keen to interact with their city bred relatives even. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > I was facinated with Nanda Chandran's view of "proper" Brahmins. It made me reflect on the fact that Buddhism and Jainism, regarded as evil heterodoxies during the early period were largely associated and drew their strength from urban culture and urban folk. They especially appealed to the more fluid caste relations in urban as opposed to rural environments. Chandran is absolutely right in identifying Brahmin strength to the rural environments where Brahmanism at least from the medieval period florished, where caste relations were more amenable to be modeled according to Dharmashastric models. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 29 21:59:27 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 14:59:27 -0700 Subject: w: Re: Re: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053152.23782.18203619570441447475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Selvakumar writes : >The refrain in Nanda Chandran's postings about brahmins and >and brahminism is so rabidly racisitic, This is indeed ironic as I'm the one arguing against the existance of seperate races in India and you're one of those who clamour for it! And what I said is only according to the dharma shAstrams and if one goes to traditional agrahArams in villages, one can experience the reluctance of orthodox brahmins to mix with others. And I made it clear that I excluded city bred brahmins from my definition of a true brahmin. How my argument can still be interpreted on racist lines is beyond me! If you still haven't got it, the line seperating a true brahmin and others is his ideal of life and the his willingness to live his live according to that ideal. And one of the main factors which ensured the survival of the brahmin as the priestly caste is that, for all their bluster the brahmin's detractors neither had a liking nor the courage to do what the brahmin did for a living. The few who did, were often honoured by brahminism itself. Your inability to understand my line of thought is not my problem. But please refrain from making absurd accusations. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From selva_selvakumar at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 29 19:50:23 1999 From: selva_selvakumar at HOTMAIL.COM (Selva Selvakumar) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 15:50:23 -0400 Subject: Fw: Re: Re: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053149.23782.6029555611995178168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: >Orthodox brahmins still exist in villages in India and live strictly by the >dharma. These are the brahmins who truly represent the brahmanic ideal set >forth in the scriptures. They are often dirt poor, but in the true >brahmanic >way go all the way to live their dharma. > >Let alone interacting with non-brahmins, foreigners etc these brahmins >are not too keen to interact with their city bred relatives even. > The refrain in Nanda Chandran's postings about brahmins and and brahminism is so rabidly racisitic, nothing said would probably change his perception. It is a standard line of thinking in some sections. However, there might be much truth in what he says if one were to rely on selected sections of several sanskrit works variously claimed to be 'revealed', not unlike Klu Klan Klux or Nazi 'philosophy' or other patently racisitic schools of 'thought'. I believe, however, not unlike other cultures, Brahminism has great wisdom, compassion, and catholicism. But it is a sad fact that throughout the ages, such views as held by Nanda Chandran did have a following - like for a long time there will be neo Nazis and neo KKKs of one form or other propagating their 'philosophies' and having a following. Selva Selvakumar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 29 23:25:27 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 16:25:27 -0700 Subject: Dominik Wujastyk, PLEEEZ READ!!!! Message-ID: <161227053154.23782.7292041391329496589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The latest piece of wisdom that we have here is: >There's more to being a brahmin than mere Sanskritic learning. Is spamming the internet with one's rants of them? > >An orthodox brahmin is somebody who lives by the Dharma ShAstrams. The >brahmins who live in the city, work for a living etc do not fall in this >category. Actually by that very way of life, they just prove that they have not understood the ideal of life set forth in the dharma shAstrams.ShankarAchArya in his dig vijayams is supposed to have deliberately avoided cities, as the denizens of such places were >supposed to be too corrupted and beyond all help!>> If he avoided dig-vijayams,did he also avoid "pig"-vijayams?..( Victories over pigs!!!!) >Let alone interacting with non-brahmins, foreigners etc these brahmins are >not too keen to interact with their city bred relatives even. Given the fact that some people suffer from diahorrea of the mouth and constipation of the brain, they would repel everybody from irrespective of origin, bucolic or otherwise.... I thought that Jai Maharaj was the only PITA( Pain in the wherever) on this discussion group only to discover that certain other posters are actually "PITA"mahAs... Dominik Wujastyk, can we see some moderation here pleeeeeeeeeeeeezzzz! Intervocalism has been replaced by something else which in turn has been replaced by some other nonsense with two posters in a "jugalbandi" mode...Twiddledeedum says something to which Twiddledeedee replies and pontificates about how the world ought to run to which Twiddledeedum replies with references which are rejected by Twiddledeedee who pontificates a little more....When will this "Comedy of Errors" or "Tragedy of Horrors" stop??????? Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From isabelle.onians at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Fri Oct 29 16:52:23 1999 From: isabelle.onians at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Isabelle Onians) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 99 17:52:23 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit-Tibetan Textual Work In-Reply-To: <199910261504_MC2-8A76-E5C9@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <161227053135.23782.712894053277652314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ulrich, I pass on someone-else's recommendation to consult the following Candrakiirtian work: S'uunyataasaptativr.tti by Felix Erb Franz Steiner Verlag Stuttgart '97 You will find therein: IV. Textus receptus A. Bewertung der Uebersetzung, for example. Best, Isabelle From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Oct 30 07:24:20 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 99 00:24:20 -0700 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053145.23782.12745054743750760779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: > > Obviously genetics does not alow for such rapid, spontaneous changes in skin > colour in a few generations. > > But Indians tan very quickly, and also lose their tans quickly in northern > latitudes. This is true of most people of the world. The main exception is certain types of "leucoderms" who generally exhibit blondism. For them it is very difficult or impossible to tan. OTOH, there are Indians born and raised in the "northern latitudes" or who have lived in these latitudes most of their lives, yet they are still *very* dark. Generally, I've found that these people are more commonly from South India, but they aren't rare at all coming from the north. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Oct 30 00:19:28 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 99 01:19:28 +0100 Subject: Oni no Kenkyu Message-ID: <161227053156.23782.12339428452778629286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi ! Shrinivas Tilak wrote: > I am looking for information about oni no kenkyu, a trickster like > character or type in the Japanese tradition. I understand it has a parallel > in the Chinese and possibly in the Indian tradition. Would appreciate help > in this matter, thanks in advance, I think your terminology is a bit garbled -- what you have written means "the study/research on demons" -- the "oni" are horned three-eyed malicious giant demons but not noted for their ntelligence -- they are similar to ogres in Western mythology but are though to have been imported from China along with Buddhism although they are not overtly Buddhist figures. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Oct 30 10:14:52 1999 From: kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Kevin McGrath) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 99 06:14:52 -0400 Subject: Mislav Jezic In-Reply-To: <19991029215927.34975.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053158.23782.7845644667479403591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the e-address of Mislav Jezic in Dubrovnik? Thanks ... From bernede at WLINK.COM.NP Sat Oct 30 10:21:45 1999 From: bernede at WLINK.COM.NP (BERNEDE Franck) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 99 11:21:45 +0100 Subject: Dessubscribing from indology list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053161.23782.8240764831091007674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear sir, Please, could you desubscribe my name from your list, by advance thank you. Franck Bernede F. Bernede cellist / ethnomusicologist Off : UPR 299 du CNRS, Villejuif. France Res :Basnetgaon - Patan. N?pal Tel : 00 977 1 528 051 Fax : 00 977 1 419 968 (Ambassade de France ? Kathmandu) E. Mail : bernede at wlink.com.np bernede@ easynet.fr Courrier : c/o Bernadette Vasseux Ambassade de france a Kathmandu / Nepal service de la valise diplomatique 128bis rue de l'univrsite 75351 Paris 07 SP From surya42 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 30 12:00:39 1999 From: surya42 at HOTMAIL.COM (Suryanarayana Korada) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 99 12:00:39 +0000 Subject: Panini vs John Backus Message-ID: <161227053164.23782.14095529785634338819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Backus joined IBM as a programmer in 1950. He is the inventor of FORTRAN, >the first high level computer language to be developed. It became >commercially available in 1957. > >In 1959 he invented the BNF, a standard notation to describe the syntax of >a high level programming language. > >At one place, I found BNF to be described as "Backus Naur Form" and at >other as "Backus Normal Form". Which one is correct? > >Panini should be thought of as the forerunner of the modern formal language >theory used to specify computer languages. Why? > >The BNF was discovered independently by John Backus in 1959, but Panini's >notation is equivalent in its power to that of Backus and has many similar >properties. Could anyone provide me any example to substantiate this claim? The formal language system of Panini is found to have many parallels with present day computer programs and has been the subject of many research papers in recent times. The word "formal" refers to the fact that all the rules for the language are explicitly stated in terms of what strings of symbols could occur without any ambiguity and need for interpretation. The BNF ( originally "Backus Normal Form" , later changed to "Backus-Naur Form") has the following meta-symbols: ::= meaning "is defined as" | meaning "or" <> angle brackets used to surround category names. The angle brackets distinguish syntax rules ( also called non-terminal symbols) from terminal symbols which are written exactly as they are to be represented. A BNF rule defining a nonterminal has the form: nonterminal ::= sequence_of_alternatives consisting of strings of terminals or nonterminals separated by the meta-symbol | For example,the BNF production for a mini-language is: ::= program begin end: Ingerman (1967) in ACM Communications mentions why "Backus-Naur Form" should be renamed "Panini-Backus Form" : "perhaps his (Panini's ) most significant work was the compilation of a grammar of Sanskrit. In order to describe the (rather complicated ) rules of grammar, he invented a notation which is equivalent in its power to that of Backus, and has many similar properties: given the use of which notation was put, it is possible to identify structures equivalent to Backus "|" and to the use of meta-brackets "<" and ">" enclosing suggestive names. Panini avoided the necessity for the character "::=" by writing the meta-result on the right rather than the left. Since it is traditional in professional circles to give credit where credit is due, and since there is clear evidence that Panini was the earlier independant inventor of the notation, may I suggest the name "Panini-Backus Form" as being a more desirable one? ". For BNF notation of Paninian rules see: K.Suryanarayana and G.V.Singh "Morphology in Paninian Grammar", Proc. of the Inter.conf.on Applications of Information Technology in South Asian Languages, New Delhi, 1994. references: 1.Knuth,Donald (1964) "Backus Normal Form vs Backus-Naur Form",Comm.ACM, 7,12,p735-736. 2.Ingerman,P.Z.(1967) "Panini-Backus Form Suggested", Comm.ACM,10,3,p137. Suryanarayana Korada, School of Computer&Systems Sciences, Jawaharlal Nehru Univ. New Delhi- 110 067. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mfroelic at MAILER.FSU.EDU Sat Oct 30 20:57:31 1999 From: mfroelic at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Mark Froelich) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 99 16:57:31 -0400 Subject: avadaana translation Message-ID: <161227053169.23782.1777520813743107374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello - I am translating and comparing, from the Sanskrit, two versions of the 'subhuuti-avadaana' edited by J. S. Speyer (and Vaidya). One of these versions is the 91st avadaana from the avadaana"sataka, and the other, which is an elaborate, poetic paraphrase, makes up the 10th chapter of the kalpadrumaavadaanamaalaa. I have 2 questions: 1.) Could anybody direct me to previous ENGLISH renderings of parts of these works (the avadaana"sataka or the kalpadrumaavadaanamaalaa)? As far as I know, neither has been rendered (in entirety) into English, though I have the Ava-"sat in Sanskrit, French, Vietnamese, and Korean. (I hear it's also been rendered into Hindi.) I've only found the Kalpadru. in its original Sanskrit. 2.) Could anybody recommend work done on the Kalpadru. (or any of the poetic '-maalaa-s')? So far I have not found much reference on even the geographical and temporal contexts of this work. (I have seen Joel Tatelman's 10-12-97 response to this list, pertaining to English renderings of the divyaavadaana, which is quite helpful to me.) In advance, I am very grateful for any suggestions and guidance, and thank you for your time and consideration. Mark Froelich Florida State University From ozge at USA.NET Sat Oct 30 20:38:53 1999 From: ozge at USA.NET (Ozge OZBEK) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 99 23:38:53 +0300 Subject: Papers on Indian Goddesses needed Message-ID: <161227053166.23782.771219884473640466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am studying in the department of Indology, Ankara University, Turkey. I am expected to make a search on and compose a report about Indian Goddesses as my thesis. The resources in Turkey about this subject are limited. Can you help me locate some papers on this subject, or better, send them to me? Thank you very much, Ozge Ozbek From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Sun Oct 31 18:24:51 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 99 20:24:51 +0200 Subject: Papers on Indian Goddesses needed In-Reply-To: <381B575D.8B0D4906@usa.net> Message-ID: <161227053171.23782.1184479231834797692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op zaterdag, 30-oct-99 schreef Ozge OZBEK: OO| Hello, OO| I am studying in the department of Indology, Ankara University, Turkey. OO| I am expected to make a search on and compose a report about Indian OO| Goddesses as my thesis. The resources in Turkey about this subject are OO| limited. Can you help me locate some papers on this subject, or better, OO| send them to me? David Kinsley: 'Hindu Goddesses' - Motilal Banarsidas, Delhi 1987 regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel mailto: jehms at kabelfoon.nl *===================================================================================* From Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU Sun Oct 31 22:29:47 1999 From: Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Dr. Greg Bailey) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 08:29:47 +1000 Subject: Mislav Jezic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053174.23782.5603116822877753371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Kevin, Below is Mislav's e-mail address. Cheers, Greg Bailey Mislav Jezic >Does anyone have the e-address of Mislav Jezic in Dubrovnik? > >Thanks ...