From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 1 15:22:26 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 07:22:26 -0800 Subject: Judgement of Solomon Message-ID: <161227053189.23782.16123079766884056036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is this type of interaction seen Iranian Mitra and Boshisattva Maitreya as the saviour in the future, eventually leading to "God's counsel" in the epic? Regards, SM ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 1 16:37:26 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 08:37:26 -0800 Subject: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053199.23782.11892900757261675465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tamil Saiva tradition values three poems as 'Siva's letters; a) Kuruntokai no. 2 to a Pandya king (a thiruviLaiyADal episode) b) A recommendation letter on behalf of a PaNan(bard) to a Chera king and c) A poem in the brief veNpA meter to Umaapati Sivaachariyar asking him to give dhiiksha to an Untouchable saint. In Tamil literature, Chitraguptan is the assistant to Yama (ta. iyaman). He maintains the database of the deeds of all beings. Chitraguptan has an annual festival dedicated to him, and, that day is special to the caste of accountants (karuNIkar). Initially, potters (ta. vELAr) developing writing, and branches of them transforming to Accountants(kAyasth/kulkarNi/karuNikar) and bhRgu/bhaargava brahmins can be found in the archives from the writings of Dr. Palaniappan. Also, he has given the etymology of gaNaka, gaNi, karNi, ... to be from Dravidian. Thousand year old commentaries on TolkAppiyam has stories of tensions between potters and accountants. OTOH, Sangam texts describe Vedas as "ezutAk kiLavi" (Unwritten Word). Yrs, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 1 17:07:17 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 09:07:17 -0800 Subject: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053203.23782.282559521822033908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Part of the etymology of karN by Dr. S. Palaniappan, 18 Mar 1998 [...] Am I right in understanding that the IE etymology is not very satisfactory? Before I post the following in Indology, I want to get your view. There is a Dravidian root kaN- meaning to incise, pierce, cut. The words related to this root are given in DED 979. (I do not have DEDR.) Ta. kaNai arrow; kaNicci battle-axe, pick-axe, goad, Ka. kaNe, gaNa arrow, Tu. kaNe quill of a porcupine; gane' arrow, Go (L) kaNI arrow, Kur. kannA arrow with an iron point, Malto kani barb of an arrow. Since all branches of Dravidian are represented here, the root should go back to Proto Dravidian. There is another set of words with the root kaN- meaning "to become cylindrical or globular"as in Ta. kaNai cylindrical or globular shape, kaNu joint in a bamboo, kaNukkAl ankle, kaNaikkAl shin, kaNaiyam club; Ma. kaNa roller of mills, the cylindrical wood of an oil press, Ko. kaN joint of bamboo, To. koN joint of bamboo or cane, Ka. kaN joint in reeds, gaNalu knuckle of the fingers, joint or knot in cane or reed, gaNike knot or joint, kaNe, kaNi heavy wooden roller which stands upright in the mortar of an oil- mill, Te. kanu, kannu joint in cane or reed, Kur. khann place on bamboo or cane where side shoot was cut away. Moreover, the word kaN- is used as a verb also, especially in the compound kaNNezuttu meaning incised letters. In my opinion, it is this root which is found in the Tamil word kaNakku meaning text as well as accounts/mathematics, etc. Till now many have held kaNakku is derived from Sanskrit. Compare gaNaka one who reckons , arithmetician MBh. ii , 206 ; xv , 417 ; a calculator of nativities , astrologer VS. xxx , 20 R. i , 12 , 7 Katha1s. ; m. pl.N. of a collection of 8 stars VarBr2S. xi , 25 ; (%{I})f. the wife of an astrologer Pa1n2. 4-1 , 48 Ka1s3. ; (%{ikA}) f. a harlot , courtezan Mn. iv Ya1jn5. i , 161 MBh. xiii Mr2icch. &c. ; = %{gaNikA7rikA} q.v. L. ; counting , enumerating W. ; apprehension W. However, based on the Dravidian information presented here, Sanskrit kaRN seems to be based on Dravidian kaN with an r inserted before N. According to Kuiper, "In Sanskrit the tendency to 'naturalize' an unconditioned N by inserting an r or R has been common in many periods." (Aryans in the Rig Veda, p.70) With an enunciative 'a' after 'r' one will get "karaNa" meaning a man of a mixed class (the son of an outcast Kshatriya Mn. x , 22 ; or the son of a S3u1dra woman by a Vais3ya Ya1jn5. i , 92 ; or the son of a Vais3ya woman by a Kshatriya MBh. i , 2446 ; 4521 ; the occupation of this class is writing , accounts &c.) a writer, scribe W. I think Dravidian kaN- can explain kaRN and karaNa better than the IE explanation. You should also note that incising palm leaf is a South Indian custom as opposed to writing with ink found in north. Thus Sanskrit karaNa scribe cannot be related to Sanskrit kaRN. What is the IE view of the etymology for gaNaka arithmatician and karaNa scribe, accountant? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 1 18:09:26 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 10:09:26 -0800 Subject: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053205.23782.16470610333866292977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >You indeed seem to be cocksure about what orthodox brahmins will or will >not do... of course you can wallow in your opinions, but if you don't want >to drown, I suggest that you read a little bit of Frits Staal, Agehananda >Bharati, Wayne Howard, and various others to see the type of interactions >they have had with all sorts of gloriously exclusive and orthodox brahmins, >including the Namboodiris of Kerala, vaDamaa/dOsamaa etc etc of TN, >vaiDikis of Andhra, etc and the S'ankaraacaaryas of the various directions. > It seems like a good number of these orthodox brahmins aren't as >hidebound as you would have them, particularly in their interaction with >people who have a genuine scholarly interest. I generally avoid replying to abusive posts, as there's no point in having a discussion with somebody who's unable to discuss an issue objectively. But since this post raised a point, which but reflects a misinterpretation of the point I raised, I'll make an exception here. India of today is very different from India even twenty years back and even more so of India a century back. Brahmins who were to a great deal involved only with preserving the dharma, have of late increasingly started taking up secular professions. Infact today, brahmins who adhere to their dharma are only a miniscule. In the post where I raised the issue of the lack of interaction between brahmins and foreigners, we were talking about two hundred years of Indology and understanding the caste system. When the foundations were laid for the subject - Aryan theory et al - which I think dates back atlease 150 years - I doubt if there was any interaction with brahmins - not westernized brahmins - but the traditional brahmins who preserved the dharma in the villages. I think this would have still held good till even 30-40 years back. Any interaction in the last twenty years or so, might not even be worth it, as modern brahmins themselves have very little clue as to what their traditional dharma is! And the few brahmins who still hold on to their heritage are generally found only in remote villages and are not too keen on interaction with strangers. Here, by interaction, I don't mean a half hour conversation, but living with them for a considerable period of time to understand their way of life. But again there's been a lot of interaction between brahmin samnyAsins like the shankarachAryas and Westerners. I doubt even if this would've been possible a hundred years back. I've read that Max Mueller had to use the influence of some MahArAja to have an audience with the Shringeri ShankarAchArya. But of late, as their own flock (modern brahmins) have become increasingly westernized, the poor AchAryas too have opened up their audience to keep with the changing times. But again the samnyAsin is generally considered beyond the pale of the caste system. So any interaction between them and foreigners doesn't truly affect this discussion. And it's a Western misconception which has made a great hallaballoo about scholarship. This so called scholarship - all this sanskrit philosophy - isn't worth a damn, if it is not supplemented by the traditional way of life as set forth in the dharma shAstrams - and this was my point - that Westerners have very little awareness of the true brahmanic way of life, the implications of which can only be understood if one lives that way. And without an understanding of it you cannot understand the caste system either. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK Mon Nov 1 10:15:52 1999 From: SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK (John Brockington) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 10:15:52 +0000 Subject: Judgement of Solomon Message-ID: <161227053177.23782.331182158182595645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Naseem Hines asks about sources of the Judgement of Solomon story. Almost certainly the earliest recorded instance of this tale is Biblical (1 Kings 3:16-28); this may have been original, but could equally have been adapted from a current oral narrative. The Biblical account entered Judaeo-Christian-Muslim tradition; whether it was first Hebrew or Arab cannot be determined. References to the story as a European (? Christian-derived) and Jewish folk-tale can be found in Stith Thompson's "Motif-Index of folk literature", motif J 1171.1 (cf. the extension in J 1171.2 'The divided bride' -- 3 claimants! and J 1171.4 -- mares and colt) supplemented by Antti Aarne's "Types of the folktale", type AT 926. An early Indic source of a similar but not identical motif, and set in a different story, is the Jataka tale translated by van Buitenen ("Tales of ancient India", p.168) as 'Mahosadha's judgement'. This may be an adaptation of the Solomon tale (or its source), or may have arisen independently as a fairly obvious illustration of the lengths to which a mother will go to protect her child -- a universal theme. Thompson's and Aarne's Indic references (detailed in Thompson and Balys, "Oral tales of India", and Thompson and Roberts, "Types of Indic oral tales"; no new references in Jason's "Supplement") are: J. Davidson, 'Folklore of Chitral', "The Indian Antiquary" 29: 249 (Kashmir) Sarah Davidson and Eleanor Phelps, 'Folk tales from New Goa, India', "Journal of American folklore" 50 :43-44 (Bombay) "North Indian Notes and Queries" 3: no.378 and 5: no.617 (Mirzapur, U.P.) G.R. Subramiah Pantulu, "Folklore of the Telugus" : 41 = "Ind. Antiq." 26: 111 no.18 (Madras) (type 926C) "North Indian Notes and Queries" 4: no. 316 (Mirzapur, U.P.) (J 1171.4) J.H. Knowles, "Folk-tales of Kashmir": 255. At a fairly cursory glance, I have not found the variant you refer to in Ramanujan's "Folk tales from India"; please could you give me the reference? Many folk tales are common to South Asian and Arab traditions ('Aladdin' is perhaps the most famous), and determining the direction of spread -- if any -- is complex and hazardous. The automatic assumption that international tales necessarily originated in India (which used to be popular) should be resisted! Best wishes, MARY BROCKINGTON sent on her behalf by John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies University of Edinburgh 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW U.K. tel: +131 650 4174 fax: +131 651 1258 From roheko at MERKUR.NET Mon Nov 1 09:47:24 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 10:47:24 +0100 Subject: Judgement of Solomon Message-ID: <161227053179.23782.7504400958806958769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have found two Solomon stories in Prakrit sources which are dated about 500 AD. Folktales not reflected in classical Sanskrit literature are to be found to a certain part in early and later Prakrit (Jain) sources. RK John Brockington wrote: > Naseem Hines asks about sources of the Judgement of Solomon story. > > Almost certainly the earliest recorded instance of this tale is Biblical (1 Kings > 3:16-28); this may have been original, but could equally have been adapted from a > current oral narrative. The Biblical account entered Judaeo-Christian-Muslim tradition; > whether it was first Hebrew or Arab cannot be determined. > > References to the story as a European (? Christian-derived) and Jewish folk-tale can be > found in Stith Thompson's "Motif-Index of folk literature", motif J 1171.1 (cf. the > extension in J 1171.2 'The divided bride' -- 3 claimants! and J 1171.4 -- mares and > colt) supplemented by Antti Aarne's "Types of the folktale", type AT 926. > > An early Indic source of a similar but not identical motif, and set in a different > story, is the Jataka tale translated by van Buitenen ("Tales of ancient India", p.168) > as 'Mahosadha's judgement'. This may be an adaptation of the Solomon tale (or its > source), or may have arisen independently as a fairly obvious illustration of the > lengths to which a mother will go to protect her child -- a universal theme. > > Thompson's and Aarne's Indic references (detailed in Thompson and Balys, "Oral tales of > India", and Thompson and Roberts, "Types of Indic oral tales"; no new references in > Jason's "Supplement") are: > > J. Davidson, 'Folklore of Chitral', "The Indian Antiquary" 29: 249 (Kashmir) > > Sarah Davidson and Eleanor Phelps, 'Folk tales from New Goa, India', "Journal of > American folklore" 50 :43-44 (Bombay) > > "North Indian Notes and Queries" 3: no.378 and 5: no.617 (Mirzapur, U.P.) > > G.R. Subramiah Pantulu, "Folklore of the Telugus" : 41 = "Ind. Antiq." 26: 111 no.18 > (Madras) > > (type 926C) "North Indian Notes and Queries" 4: no. 316 (Mirzapur, U.P.) > > (J 1171.4) J.H. Knowles, "Folk-tales of Kashmir": 255. > > At a fairly cursory glance, I have not found the variant you refer to in Ramanujan's > "Folk tales from India"; please could you give me the reference? > > Many folk tales are common to South Asian and Arab traditions ('Aladdin' is perhaps the > most famous), and determining the direction of spread -- if any -- is complex and > hazardous. The automatic assumption that international tales necessarily originated in > India (which used to be popular) should be resisted! > > Best wishes, MARY BROCKINGTON > > sent on her behalf by John Brockington > Professor J. L. Brockington > Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies > University of Edinburgh > 7-8 Buccleuch Place > Edinburgh EH8 9LW U.K. > > tel: +131 650 4174 > fax: +131 651 1258 From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Nov 1 15:50:05 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 10:50:05 -0500 Subject: avadaana translation Message-ID: <161227053191.23782.13787232459371003950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mark Froelich asks about Avadanasataka translations into English. There are these: LC Control Number: 45052874 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Corporate Name: Avad*ana?sataka. [from old catalog] Main Title: Avad*ana?ataka, a century of edifying tales belonging to the H*inay*ana. Published/Created: St. P?tersbourg, Commissionnaires de l'Acad?mie imp?riale des sciences: J. Glasounof et C. Ricker; [etc., etc.] 1906-09. Related Names: Speyer, Jacob Samuel, 1849-1913. [from old catalog] Avad*anas. [from old catalog] Related Titles: Akademiia nauk SSSR. [from old catalog] Description: 2 v. pl. (facsims.) 25 cm. LC Classification: BL1415 .B5 vol. 3 CALL NUMBER: BL1415 .B5 vol. 3 Copy 1 -- Request in: Book Service: Jefferson (Main Eur Hisp LHG) or Adams 5th fl -- Status: Not Charged ------------------- ------------------------------------------------- DATABASE NAME: Library of Congress Online Catalog ================================================================================ LC Control Number: 91212911 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Uniform Title: Tripitaka. S*utrapitaka. Avad*ana. Anad*ana?sataka. Main Title: Avad*ana?ataka : a century of edifying tales belonging to the H*inay*ana / edited by J.S. Speyer. Published/Created: Osnabr?ck : Biblio Verlag, 1970. Related Names: Speyer, J. S. (Jacob Samuel), 1849-1913. Description: 2 v. ; 24 cm. Notes: In Sanskrit; intruduction and notes in English. Neudruck der ausgabe 1902-1906". Includes bibliographical references and indexes. Series: Bibliotheca Buddhica ; 3 LC Classification: BQ1550 .S64 1970 CALL NUMBER: BQ1550 .S64 1970 Sans Copy 1 -- Request in: Asian Reading Room (Jefferson, LJ150) -- Status: Not Charged ------------------- ------------------------------------------------- DATABASE NAME: Library of Congress Online Catalog ================================================================================ LC Control Number: 89216596 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: Ksemendra, 11th cent. Main Title: Five Tibetan legends : from the Avad*ana Kalpalat*a / [Ksemendra ; translated and annotated by F.A. Peter]. Uniform Title: [Avad*anakalpalat*a. English & Tibetan. Selections] Published/Created: Rikon/Z?rich, Switzerland : Tibet-Institut, 1989. Related Names: Peter, F. A. (Friedrich A.), 1904-1988. Related Titles: Five Tibetan legends from the Avad*ana Kalpalat*a. Description: 56 p. ; 25 cm. ISBN: 3720600181 (pbk.) Notes: English and Tibetan. Subjects: Gautama Buddha--Pre-existence. Gautama Buddha--Legends. Legends, Buddhist--China--Tibet. Series: Opuscula Tibetana ; fasc. 20. Variant Series: Opuscula Tibetana : Arbeiten aus dem Tibet-Institut Rikon-Z?rich ; fasc. 20 (Feb. 1989) LC Classification: BQ930 .K7613 1989 Language Code: engtib tibsan Other System No.: (OCoLC)24864300 Geog. Area Code: a-cc-ti Quality Code: lccopycat CALL NUMBER: BQ930 .K7613 1989 Copy 1 -- Request in: Book Service: Jefferson (Main Eur Hisp LHG) or Adams 5th fl -- Status: Not Charged ------------------- ------------------------------------------------- DATABASE NAME: Library of Congress Online Catalog ================================================================================ LC Control Number: 97906897 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: Chattopadhyay, Jayanti. Main Title: Bodhisattva avad*anakalpalat*a : a critical study / Jayanti Chattopadhyay. Published/Created: Calcutta : Atisha Memorial Pub. Society : To be had of, Sanskrit Pustak Bhandar, 1994. Description: xii, 344 p. ; 22 cm. Summary: Study on the Avad*anakalpalat*a by Ksemendra, 11th cent., work on pre-exitence of Gautama Buddha. Notes: Originally presented as the author's thesis (Ph. D.--University of Calcutta) under the title: A critical study of the Bodhisattvavadana-kalpalata. Includes bibliographical references (p. [327]-336) and index. Includes passages in Sanskrit (in roman). Subjects: Ksemendra, 11th cent. Avad*anakalpalat*a. Gautama Buddha--Pre-existence. LC Classification: BQ930 .C43 1994 Language Code: engsan Overseas Acq. No.: I-E-97-906897; 11 Quality Code: lcode CALL NUMBER: BQ930 .C43 1994 Copy 1 -- Request in: Book Service: Jefferson (Main Eur Hisp LHG) or Adams 5th fl -- Status: Not Charged ------------------- ------------------------------------------------- DATABASE NAME: Library of Congress Online Catalog ================================================================================ LC Control Number: 73210177 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: Roy, Sita Ram. Main Title: Suvarnavarn*avad*ana; decipherment and historical study of a palm-leaf Sanskrit manuscript, an unknown Mah*ay*ana (avad*ana) text from Tibet. Published/Created: Patna, K. P. Jayaswal Research Institute [1971] Description: xv, 356 p. illus. 25 cm. Notes: Reconstructed text (p. [218-318) is in Devanagari script. A revision of the author's thesis, Patna University, 1965. Bibliography: p. [319]-333. Subjects: Suvarnavarn*avad*ana--Criticism, Textual. Series: Historical researches series ; v. 7. Variant Series: Historical research series, v. 7 LC Classification: BQ1600.S967 R68 1971 Dewey Class No.: 294.3/823 CALL NUMBER: BQ1600.S967 R68 1971 Copy 1 -- Request in: Book Service: Jefferson (Main Eur Hisp LHG) or Adams 5th fl -- Status: Not Charged ------------------- ------------------------------------------------- DATABASE NAME: Library of Congress Online Catalog ==================================================================== Allen Thrasher Library of Congress From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Nov 1 15:58:41 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 10:58:41 -0500 Subject: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053194.23782.3892870108976318050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have any evidence over whether it is clear whether in Hinduism or other Indian religions the gods (or other supernatural beings) are literate? Are they ever represented as reading books, or written messages of any sort? Several of course are routinely represented iconographically as holding books (Brahma and the Vedas, Sarasvati and a book, etc.). The only example of a god writing that comes to my mind is the story of Ganesa taking down the Mahabharata by dictation. Mantras written down by themselves or as part of yantras have power with the gods, but is that because the gods read the messages and heed them or because they are overwhelmed by the power of the spoken words of which the writing is a sort of coagulation, or that the written mantras are themselves manifestations or forms of the gods, or that they work on the gods the way they might work on human beings or even inaminate objects? Are some supernatural beings, groups or individuals, literate, and others (e.g. females, or less high class and more oafish beings, such as bhutapretapisacadayah) illiterate? Any comments would be appreciated. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Mon Nov 1 16:30:41 1999 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (beitel) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 11:30:41 -0500 Subject: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053196.23782.16802162883855072283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen, An interesting question and I hope lots of answers come in. I think first, after Ganesa of course, of Brahma, who in Tamil "writes" one's "head fate" (talai viti), I believe with the helpful recording assistance of the divine accountant Citragupta. Then of the story Whitehead tells near the end of his VILLAGE GODS IN SOUTH INDIA of a village deity in Tamilnadu who receives accounts of injustices (unresolved as legal cases) to be rectified on a pike. And Periyar (E. V. Ramasami) is said (by my friend S. Ravindran) to have expressed his relief that the British had not also inspired such deities as "Milestone Sami" (which at least would require reading numbers) and "High Court Sami." There are also oleographs of Durga holding palm leaf manuscripts.... Alf >===== Original Message From Indology ===== >Does anyone have any evidence over whether it is clear whether in >Hinduism or other Indian religions the gods (or other supernatural >beings) are literate? Are they ever represented as reading books, or >written messages of any sort? Several of course are routinely >represented iconographically as holding books (Brahma and the Vedas, >Sarasvati and a book, etc.). The only example of a god writing that >comes to my mind is the story of Ganesa taking down the Mahabharata by >dictation. Mantras written down by themselves or as part of yantras >have power with the gods, but is that because the gods read the >messages and heed them or because they are overwhelmed by the power of >the spoken words of which the writing is a sort of coagulation, or >that the written mantras are themselves manifestations or forms of the >gods, or that they work on the gods the way they might work on human >beings or even inaminate objects? Are some supernatural beings, >groups or individuals, literate, and others (e.g. females, or less >high class and more oafish beings, such as bhutapretapisacadayah) >illiterate? Any comments would be appreciated. > >Allen Thrasher > > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >Senior Reference Librarian >Southern Asia Section >Asian Division >Library of Congress >LJ-150 >101 Independence Ave., S.E. >Washington, DC 20540-4810 >U.S.A. >tel. 202-707-3732 >fax 202-707-1724 >email: athr at loc.gov > >The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the >Library of Congress. From se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 1 12:13:56 1999 From: se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (Kailash Srivastava) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 12:13:56 +0000 Subject: Panini vs John Backus Message-ID: <161227053182.23782.7114746536428127032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, U wanted to know why I asked. I am preparing for a speech on India's contribution to be delivered at a local club of engineers. It was in that context I wanted to elicit some more information. WBR Kailash ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Nov 2 00:45:16 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 14:45:16 -1000 Subject: Are the Gods literate? In-Reply-To: <19991102004143.50338.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053217.23782.13671538801395586840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Harsha Dehejia wrote: > >The edifice of Hindu thought rests on the primacy of the oral word >and > >even more on non-cognate realisation. Our Gods therefore do not >have to be > >literate or be able to send electronic messages. Then how come they have an "Om" page? Raja. From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Mon Nov 1 13:47:42 1999 From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 14:47:42 +0100 Subject: papers on Goddesses Message-ID: <161227053186.23782.7219186023489544574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ozbek, I hope you will forgive showing so little modesty if I refer to the book "Wild Goddesses in India and Nepal" ed. by A. Michaels, C. Vogelsanger and A. Wilke, Bern: Peter Lang 1996 (with a number of further bibliographical references). With best wishes, A.M. ______________________________________________________________ Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels e-mail: axel.michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Dept. of Classical Indology phone: ++49-6221-548817 South Asia Institute fax: ++49-6221-546338 University of Heidelberg Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 69120 Heidelberg Germany ______________________________________________________________ From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 2 00:41:42 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 16:41:42 -0800 Subject: Are the Gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053215.23782.6142590090484295133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The edifice of Hindu thought rests on the primacy of the oral word >and >even more on non-cognate realisation. Our Gods therefore do not >have to be >literate or be able to send electronic messages. >Harsha V. Dehejia What about using cell phones? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 2 01:08:18 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 17:08:18 -0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Re: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053220.23782.13076558800965296984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear RM Krishnan, >Original topic of this thread was on the origin of the name 'Agastya'. >Iproposed that it may be equivalent to the ancient generic name like Athan >in Tamil, Augustus/Augustine in western >languages, Adam in early Hebrew etc. Unfortunately, there was no response >on that point yet. I've no opinions to offer on this subject. My response to this thread was with the reference to South Indian brahmin conflicts, which is what has progressed into a discussion of varnAshrama dharmam. >Now the discussion is getting diverted into Aryan invasion and varNasrama >dharmA etc. If you want we can rename the thread to something else. And my arguments against the interpretation of the varnAshrama dharmam is only partly connected with the AI theory. There are other factors involved in a correct evaluation of the system. >Why should we move on to HindutvAti arguements? And I wasn't aware that the AI debate has already been bracketed as a Hindutva topic, the action which I would definitely question. It's certainly a sad thing, for instead of concentrating on the subject and discussing it objectively, the recent debate on this list progressively transformed into a personal attack fest. I hope the varnAshramam topic too would not suffer the same fate, for it along with the AI theory has a crucial place in INDOLOGY. And if both these issues are not sorted out, the whole subject of Indology is on shaky ground. >By avoiding that and looking for kaizan type small advancements, we may >succeed one day. Welcome advancement made on any subject. But I personally feel there's not much to be gained by avoiding an issue. It will only surface later with even greater force. >Let us drop our coloured glasses. I do not have to emphasize: if we want to >see the history through a coloured glass, it will look coloured. My glasses are plain and if I were to drop it, I would have trouble seeing :-) Admitted that I've my own views (doesn't everybody? Oh! I forgot - definitely not the ShUnyavAdin :-), but if somebody were to prove what they claim with adequate evidence, I've no problem accepting it. Rgds, Nandakumar Chandran ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From poopathi at AA.NET Tue Nov 2 01:21:50 1999 From: poopathi at AA.NET (Poopathi Manickam) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 17:21:50 -0800 Subject: Are the Gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053222.23782.6958655257801408210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Narayan S. Raja" wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Harsha Dehejia wrote: > > > >The edifice of Hindu thought rests on the primacy of the oral word >and > > >even more on non-cognate realisation. Our Gods therefore do not >have to be > > >literate or be able to send electronic messages. > > Then how come they have an "Om" page? > > Raja. That's only for the deaf people like us..! (audio enabled) Pun intended..! :-p ( ((((((( OAM ))))))) ) From David.Jonsson at DJK.SE Mon Nov 1 17:02:37 1999 From: David.Jonsson at DJK.SE (David Jonsson) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 18:02:37 +0100 Subject: ISKCON Message-ID: <161227053201.23782.3316932216140353944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone inform me how many supporters the Hare Krishna (ISKCON) movement has worldwide? How many of these live in India? David From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Mon Nov 1 12:52:57 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 18:22:57 +0530 Subject: rewriting history, etc. Message-ID: <161227053184.23782.14279605658402850174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sundays' _The Hindu_ has a scathing article on the BJP government's educational and research policies titled "The return of the thought police". "The Vajpayee Government, barely two weeks into office after its return to power, has lost no time reviving its unfinished academic agenda and, for starters, has installed its own men as heads of the Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR) and the Indian Council of Social Science Research (ICSSR)." A disturbing article: http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/1999/10/31/stories/0531134a.htm The article also says: "The Union Human Resource Development Minister, Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi, has been typically aggressive, calling his critics ``fascists'' - ironically a charge hitherto hurled at him and his fellow ideologues by the Left." -- This reminds me of K. Elst, the difference of course being that I did not call him or his friend Rajaram a fascist. He was off to a false start. Or maybe he thought he was writing about somebody else. See also the companion article, "The use and abuse of history": "Rewriting history and doctoring textbooks have been an old Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh passion, and wherever the BJP has come to power the first thing it has done is to tamper with the school curriculum." See: http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/1999/10/31/stories/0531134b.htm RZ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Nov 2 00:08:02 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 19:08:02 -0500 Subject: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053210.23782.16871269842563188288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tamil ziva is indeed literate. There are some other stories regarding ziva in the Tamil zaivism demonstrating ziva's literacy. For instance, the episode of ziva preventing cuntarar's wedding involves ziva producing a document showing that cuntarar was his slave. Even more interesting is the story involving ziva at tiruvoRRiyUr. He is called ezuttaRiyum perumAn2, the Lord who is literate. A brief sketch of the story is this. A king who wanted to die asked his accountant to reduce endowments to all ziva temples. The accountant revised all the accounts to reflect that. But the next day, when they looked at the ledger, they were surprised to find that there was an insertion to the effect " excepting the temple at tiruvoRRiyUr". Of course, the endowment to tiruvoRRiyUr was not reduced! The following verses in periyapurANam (12th century) allude to this story. maruL koTum tozil man2n2avan2 iRakkiya variyai nerukki mun2 tiruvoRRiyUr nIgka en2Ru ezutum oruttar tam perum kOyilin2 oru puRam cUznta tirup parappaiyum uTaiya at tiraik kaTal varaippu (per. 1116) ezutAta maRai aLitta ezuttu aRiyum perumAn2ait tozuta Arvam uRa nilattil tOyntu ezuntE agkam ellAm muzutu Aya paravacattin2 mukiztta mayirkkAl mUzka vizutArai kaN poziya vitirppu uRRu vimmin2Ar (per. 1600) ETTu variyil oRRiyUr nIgkal en2n2a ezuttu aRiyum nATTa malarum tiru nutalAr naRum pon2 kamalac cEvaTiyil kUTTum uNarvu koNTu ezuntu kOtu il icai kUTap pATTum pATi paravi en2um patikam eTuttup pATin2Ar (per. 3358) Compared to the oral/aural orthodox Sanskrit tradition, the Tamil tradition has always emphasized literacy w.r.t reading and writing. Texts also pointedly contrast the unwritten Sanskrit Vedas and written Tamil Vedas (tamizAl ezutu maRai, i.e., the tEvAram hymns). Obviously, their ziva has to be literate! Note the description in the second verse which refers to the Lord who is literate (ezuttu aRiyum perumAn2) who bestowed the unwritten Vedas (ezuTata maRai). Regards S. Palaniappan From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Tue Nov 2 00:31:15 1999 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 19:31:15 -0500 Subject: Are our Gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053212.23782.11243115085686705956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The edifice of Hindu thought rests on the primacy of the oral word and even more on non-cognate realisation. Our Gods therefore do not have to be literate or be able to send electronic messages. Harsha V. Dehejia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shimj at USA.NET Tue Nov 2 05:35:06 1999 From: shimj at USA.NET (JAEKWAN SHIM) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 99 22:35:06 -0700 Subject: Staal's pashubandha-pratinidhi Message-ID: <161227053224.23782.4915697676733732665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, F.Staal says the following in his book AGNI(vol 1, p.18, or vol 2. p.465): "....During the 1975 performance of the ceremony several changes were made. One of the most important was that no animals were killed during the fourteen animal sacrifices traditionally prescribed. The goats were represented by cakes made of a paste of rice flour...." Except the vegetarian substite of pashuyajna in GrihyaSutra, anybody know that substition for pashuyajna in "SrautaSutra"? F. Staal also says of 1955 Vajapeya performance in Poona for the case(vol. 2, p.465). Is there any report on the substituted pashuyajna? I shall be most grateful for the information or biblio to help my understanding for the pashubandha-pratinidhi. Thanks in advance. Jaekwan Shim shimj at usa.net Dept. of Indian Philosophy Dongguk. Univ. Seoul ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 2 13:12:30 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 05:12:30 -0800 Subject: VAIZAMBA_LYA_ Message-ID: <161227053234.23782.11960582237681743487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Prof. Witzel noted that the Sarasvati River was also called vais'amba_lya_. Some thoughts and queries: 1. What are the textual references where this synonym is used? (I couldn't get access to Witzel 1999) >>> Dear Dr. Kalyanaraman, Greetings. Witzel, Substrate languages in OIA, EJVS, 1999, p. 11 "and note that the SarasvatI still has a similar name, Vai'sambhalyA (with many variants, always a sign of foreign origin, in the Brahmana texts: TB 2.5.8.6, -bhAlyA, -pAlyA, -bAlyA Ap'SS 4.14.4, -bhAlyA BhAr'sikSA; cf. also RV vi'spAla?), which is to be derived from something like *visambAz/*visambAL, ..." We know that ta. vicumpu, pronounced as visumbu, means the "sky". The river could be "vicumpAL" ("sky river", spoken out as "visumbAL"). This gets support from the place name on the banks of Sarasvati river, bhavAnipura where Sarasvati re-emerges from sand (B. C. Law, 1968, Mountains and Rivers of India). Note tamil "vAn2" is "sky". This Dr. "vAn" is in the "bhavAnipura" on the Sarasvati. Compare this info with the river, vAn2i ("sky river") in Erode district which is referred to in Sangam texts. This "vAn2i" river in Tamil Nadu is sanskritized as "bhavAni", and now there is an irrigation dam called bhavAnisAgar. Note that the "descent of a river from sky" is celebrated always, the "Ganga's descent" in Mahabalipuram, the huge monolithic relief sculpture of the Pallavas. >?From Dravidian visumbAL to Sanskrit vai'sambAlyA is rather common: Dr. miiN AL ("fisherman") becomes "mainAla" (Prof. Witzel's same paper). Settlements of "vEL" people is called in the RV as "vailasthAna". Sangam texts refer to "vEL"s whose leader, Krishna of Dvaraka, moving southward. F. Southworth gives a Dravidian etymology for Sindhu as *kIndu/sIndu. The Indus valley civilization, before the Aryans moved into South Asia (No horses before 1700 BC), could have been called more like "sIndu-visumbAL" culture. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Nov 2 00:13:03 1999 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM.Krishnan) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 05:13:03 +0500 Subject: Fw: Re: Re: Q: intervocalic -k- preserved as intervocalic -g- Message-ID: <161227053207.23782.2697548639147936796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10/28/99 2:28:00 PM, you wrote: >N Ganesan writes : > >> 200 years of philological work and the summaries by current >>Indologists tell a lot on the date of the Rig Veda, >>Aryan intrusion, real purport/meaning of varnashrama system, ... > >195 years of this was without any significant opposition. They just >existed on the same preconceptions which do not map to the reality >of the social conditions in India and were never contested. I guess >it was the case of some professors in Western universities who >formed opinions just by reading texts and making a couple of trips >to India. Even if they did spend some time in India, there's little >chance that they got to interact extensively with orthodox brahmins >(who for most part would've avoided them. Probably that's the reason >Gough shows so much bias against brahmins). Quite a bit of what >was written especially with respect to the "violent" invasion theory >over an "advanced" people, is to a great extent guided by intelligent >concoction and imagination, and is with little factual base. > >And as I said before, IMO, most scholars have little idea as to what >the varnAshramam system is really about. As to non-brahmin Indians, >those who understood the system were generally spiritual saints who >never protested against it and were rightly honoured by Brahminism. >The few brahmins themselves who condemn it are usually inspired by >Western concepts of democracy and equality and are more comfortable >leading a Western way of life than adhering to their dharma. To >understand the varnAshrama dharma requires right knowledge (of reality), >insight into human psychology and vision - which sadly is not in great >supply. > >Indian scholars and those sympathetic to the Indian viewpoint, >contesting such views have surfaced only in the past five years or so >and already we're witnessing some change. Let's give it a few more >years and then decide. > Dear Nanda Chandran, Original topic of this thread was on the origin of the name 'Agastya'. I proposed that it may be equivalent to the ancient generic name like Athan in Tamil, Augustus/Augustine in western languages, Adam in early Hebrew etc. Unfortunately, there was no response on that point yet. Now the discussion is getting diverted into Aryan invasion and varNasrama dharmA etc. Why should we move on to HindutvAti arguements? If we divert all our arguements to the same old problem which has defied answers so far, we may not find any. By avoiding that and looking for kaizan type small advancements, we may succeed one day. Let us drop our coloured glasses. I do not have to emphasize: if we want to see the history through a coloured glass, it will look coloured. With regards, RM.Krishnan From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 2 13:42:56 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 05:42:56 -0800 Subject: Yadavaprakasa: Information request Message-ID: <161227053237.23782.8686541754179839328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agrawal wrote: > >Any English translation of the Tamil Epic Nilaceci? > >Thank you in advance > >Vishal > The 1936 edition was reprinted in Jaipur also. A. Chakravarti, Neelakesi, 2nd edition, Jaipur: Prakrit Bharati Academi, 1994 Best wishes, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ Tue Nov 2 11:21:31 1999 From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 12:21:31 +0100 Subject: Yadavaprakasa: Information request In-Reply-To: <19991029010542.70617.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053232.23782.9503031169925050800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:05 28.10.1999 PDT, Vishal Agrawal wrote: > >Any English translation of the Tamil Epic Nilaceci? > >Thank you in advance > >Vishal > For an English translation of the Tamil Jaina epic NIlakEci, see CHAKRAVARTI, A. (ed. & trans.), Neelakesi: The Original Text and the Commentary of Samaya-Divakara-Vamana-Muni, Kumbakonam 1936, reed. Tamil University, Tanjavur 1984. Regards, J. Filipsky Jan Filipsky, PhD. Oriental Institute Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8 The Czech Republic phone ++4202/6605 3729 home: U Pentlovky 466/7, 181 00 Praha 8 phone ++4202/855 74 53 From hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK Tue Nov 2 15:16:47 1999 From: hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK (hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 15:16:47 +0000 Subject: Intensive Intro. Sanskrit in India In-Reply-To: <37D02050.4B38@del3.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227053227.23782.4779990285775563292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi everyone, I think this question might have come up before on this list, but I did not pay attention to it. I have a graduate student in Buddhist philosophy who would like to spend two months of next summer in India beginning to learn Sanskrit. Instruction that includes conversation would be ideal, so she can begin to internalize the language. Some years ago, I remember some people were studying intensive introductory Sanskrit with Pt. Vagish Shastri in Varanasi. Anyway, I would appreciate suggestions about her best options. India is not so far from Hong Kong, so she could go there easily with a small grant. Thanks, David Lawrence Division of Humanities Hong Kong University of Science and Technology From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Nov 2 16:03:55 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 16:03:55 +0000 Subject: VAIZAMBA_LYA_ Message-ID: <161227053230.23782.5149976621543897582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel noted that the Sarasvati River was also called vais'amba_lya_. Some thoughts and queries: 1. What are the textual references where this synonym is used? (I couldn't get access to Witzel 1999) 2. Could this be related to a nearby river called Chambal, as a Sanskritization of the substrate para-Munda, by prefixing vis' --the people? 3. S'a_ma_s'a_stry noted that gava_m ayana (The Vedic Calendar, Delhi, Ganga Publications, p.58) is synonymous with jyo_tis.a_m ayana, the march of heavenly lights, a reference to the sacrificial year of 360 or 361 days of the S'rauta Su_tras. Is this linkable with Sarasvati_, the Milky Way--sapta dhenavah = sapta nadyah? 4. How was the Sapta R.s.i man.d.ala related to the Milky Way? Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 3 02:04:10 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 18:04:10 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053240.23782.16282759675646039572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson asks: >Can anyone point to early text-places where writing is unambiguously >referred >to? Is there a generally acknowledged first reference to writing in India? > This is probably not the best answer, but Gods being literate was atleast a common phenomenon by the time of kAlidAsa( which century is another big controversy)..The story of his being made literate by his wife's favorite Godess has been written and discussed in a no of places..In addition, the story of JayadEva talks( approx 12th century AD) about a "literate Krishna"..The story is that Jayadeva is supposed to have been confused over the completion of a verse and is supposed to have gone for a bath when Krishna came in disguise and completed the verse.... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 3 03:20:45 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 19:20:45 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053242.23782.13891161693352013967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Numerous journal articles are available on the question of writing in the Vedic period. Exact references can be found out easily from the various volumes of 'Vedic Bibliography' by Dandekar. I alone have 5 such articles in my collection, all from Indian journals. One of these is in Hindi and another in Marathi (the latter is the best of all and very convincing. It lists dozens of direct and indirect references to writing from Brahamanas, Kalpasutras,Ashtadhyayi, Pratisakhyas, Tripitaka etc.). Can email references to you at a later date if you wish. In my opinion, the RV, SV and VYV samhitas do not have any unambiguous evidence of writing. The last mantra of AV (Vulgate) book XIX however refers to 'placing the Vedas in the kosha'. Since the XIXth book is often taken as the last book of AV (vulgate), with the XXth book as a later addition (of course, even the XIX book could have been added to the first 18 in hoary antiquity), the position of this mantra (and its context) tempts us to believe that some 'written' texts of Vedas did exist at a date prior to that attested by archaeology. This particular mantra is actually taken by numerous Hindi and Marathi Bhasyas and Tikas as referring to 'physical texts' of the Vedas (This is true especially of the Arya Samaj interpretations). What is your opinion on this mantra? On devatas with books, I recall seeing the icons of Sri Visvakarma with some texts in hand in our business establishment. (As you might be aware, industrialists and industrial workers conduct a 'Visvakarma Puja' every year and his icon is present in most manufacturing shops in N. India at least. This Puja is sometimes a bigger affair for the company than the annual Diwali Puja, which might be restricted to the owners of the company and their family members and some chosen employees) Vishal ________________ George Thompson asks: >Can anyone point to early text-places where writing is unambiguously >referred >to? Is there a generally acknowledged first reference to writing in India? > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From GthomGt at CS.COM Wed Nov 3 00:54:44 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 19:54:44 -0500 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053239.23782.11095649958250165768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A related question: It is generally acknowledged, I think, that there is no reference to writing in Vedic. There is interesting discussion in Allchin's *The Archaeology of Early Historic South Asia: The Emergence of Cities and States* [Cambridge Unv. Press 1995] of the first attestations of the Brahmi and Karosthi scripts. But I am not aware of discussion of, or even identification of, the first unambiguous reference to writing in Indic literature . Can anyone point to early text-places where writing is unambiguously referred to? Is there a generally acknowledged first reference to writing in India? George Thompson From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Nov 3 03:40:01 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 22:40:01 -0500 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053245.23782.12165755422025106154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members? What is the earliest reference linking Sankara with Kaladi? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Nov 3 04:25:41 1999 From: clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Carlos Lopez) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 23:25:41 -0500 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? In-Reply-To: <0.2f36eb1c.2550e1d4@cs.com> Message-ID: <161227053247.23782.4474248776550392136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You might want to consultH. Falk Schrift im alten Indien. Ein Forschungsbericht mit Anmerkunger(Gunter Narr Verlag: TUbingen1993)...there is a section on the literary evidence for writing... Carlos Lopez Harvard U Dept. of Sanskrit > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of George > Thompson > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 7:55 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods > literate? > > > A related question: > > It is generally acknowledged, I think, that there is no > reference to writing > in Vedic. > > There is interesting discussion in Allchin's *The Archaeology of Early > Historic South Asia: The Emergence of Cities and States* > [Cambridge Unv. > Press 1995] of the first attestations of the Brahmi and > Karosthi scripts. > > But I am not aware of discussion of, or even identification > of, the first > unambiguous reference to writing in Indic literature . > > Can anyone point to early text-places where writing is > unambiguously referred > to? Is there a generally acknowledged first reference to > writing in India? > > George Thompson > From se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 3 06:52:13 1999 From: se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (. .) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 99 07:52:13 +0100 Subject: Multiple Hands Message-ID: <161227053249.23782.6621543567086152137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many Hindu gods and goddess are depicted having multiple hands. Does this concept of mutiple hands exist in other religion or culture? From pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Wed Nov 3 16:37:50 1999 From: pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 99 08:37:50 -0800 Subject: Address needed Message-ID: <161227053255.23782.5198447589755996736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Does anyone have an e-mail or other address for Paule Lerner, who wrote ? I believe she lives in France. Thanks! Patricia Greer ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 3 16:52:31 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 99 08:52:31 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053260.23782.9657544427915009628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Thompson, In the tOraNa niches, sculptures of nymphs writing praNayapatrikAs are well known. (Sivaramamurti, Art of India). Also, S. Chakravarti, Patralekha: romance of letters in Indian art and literature, Calcutta, 1996. Likely, the letters from ancient tamil epics are missing in Chakravarti. Sangam texts represent that moment in time when Writing was born in tamil. Iravatham Mahadevan gives one or two generations (25-50 years) for the MaankuLam inscription in Tamil after Asoka. Several centuries of oral poetry, somewhat similar to the situation in Sanskrit, gets compiled into sangam anthologies. For the oral nature of sangam poetry and a comparison with Greek bardic poetry, see K. Kailasapathy, Tamil heroic poetry, OUP, 1968 Sangam texts have lovers writing "toyyil" pictograms on girl friends' breasts. Extended later to Brahma writing fate on one's head, I guess. aatticUDi, the first book taught to children, has "eNNum ezuttum kaN en2at takum" (Numbers and Alphabets are like Eyes). Tevaram by 7th century saints calls "Siva as the supreme teacher and says "eN aan2aay! ezuttu aan2aay! ezuttin2ukku Or iyalpu aan2aay! .." ('Siva became Numbers, and Letters; He is the true nature of those Letters, ..). An earlier book, tirukkuRaL, the most secular book from Old India, starts with: 'a' is the first and source of all the letters. Even so is God Primordial, the first and source of all the world. (kuRaL 1) Also, ezutuGkAl kOl kANAk kaNNEpOl koNkaN pazi kANEn2 kaNTa iTattu "What She said: While close I don't see my lover's blemish Like eyes do not see the stylus while writing" (kuRaL 1285) Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 3 17:09:16 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 99 09:09:16 -0800 Subject: Panini vs. John Backus Message-ID: <161227053267.23782.3979283929160770406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Seeking references on the similarities between Panini and Fortran, AI, etc., Interested more from the scholarly journals, rather than the likes of newspaper writeups. Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA Wed Nov 3 09:38:29 1999 From: kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA (Prof. P. Kumar) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 99 11:38:29 +0200 Subject: ISKCON Message-ID: <161227053251.23782.905153496934764560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would imagine this is a rather difficult question to answer because to my knowledge the ISKCON does not have like membership type follower. Most of their followers are spontaneous ones who would attend some of their festivals/rituals etc., may not necessarily attend daily/weekly rituals at their temples. It does not mean there isn't a core group that almost regularly attends and participates and perhaps even consider themselves as followers of the Hare Krishna way of life. But even those, I don't think are actually counted as per some records. Just to give an example in the Durban temple (Hare Krishna) on every Sunday there might be about 200 or so devotees most of whom are not regular followers as such but general Hindus but sometimes take time to visit the temple. But at the time of the festival of chariots which happens on the beachfront in Durban there may be about a 100 000 devotees (this is according to the rough estimate by local newspapers) attending the festival on a daily basis during the three days of the festival. So perhpas the question needs to be put differently. Pratap >Can someone inform me how many supporters the Hare Krishna (ISKCON) >movement has >worldwide? How many of these live in India? > >David Prof. P. Kumar, Centre for Religious Studies, University of Durban-Westivlle Private BagX54001, Durban, 4000 South Africa, Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work), Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work) Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Director of the 18th Quinquennial Congress of the IAHR Durban- August 5-12 2000 For more info on the Congress please see: http://www.udw.ac.za/iahr *IMPORTANT NOTICE: THOSE COMING TO THE IAHR:DURBAN PLEASE READ THIS* Delegates to the IAHR Durban congress can now deposit the congress related fees in to the following bank account directly. Although we still accept checks and credit card modes of payment, in order to lessen the administrative and other delays in transacting those payments, the secretariat will prefer payments directly into the Bank account given below and send us the deposit slip either by fax or ordinary mail. Name of Account: IAHR: Durban 2000 Name of Bank: First National Bank, South Africa Branch Name : Durban North, Broadway Branch Branch Code: 220426 Account No: 62010873017 From nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR Wed Nov 3 11:03:15 1999 From: nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR (Jadranka Schauer) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 99 12:03:15 +0100 Subject: ISKCON Message-ID: <161227053253.23782.14310199588056022125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is difficult question even to their own members. There are few types of followers: the first ones that live in the temple or follow morning-evening programs with service connected with their temple. The second type is congregation that used to live in the temples but got married or got a job outside of the temples and they give a major donations. In India, there is one very nice program by their founder Srila Prabhupada called "Life membership. Only Calcutta has 26.000 of them. Mumbai has more. They give donations, help the programs, come to sunday programs, hold programs at their homes, etc. according to their taste. One who has been initated by a founder himself, or by his disciles that are voted to be bona-fide gurus in ISKCON (there are about 80 of them) are called Hare Krishna devotees. Unfortunately, 90% of founder's disciples are not in ISKCON today. Prof. P. Kumar wrote: > I would imagine this is a rather difficult question to answer because to my > knowledge the ISKCON does not have like membership type follower. Most of > their followers are spontaneous ones who would attend some of their > festivals/rituals etc., may not necessarily attend daily/weekly rituals at > their temples. It does not mean there isn't a core group that almost > regularly attends and participates and perhaps even consider themselves as > followers of the Hare Krishna way of life. But even those, I don't think > are actually counted as per some records. Just to give an example in the > Durban temple (Hare Krishna) on every Sunday there might be about 200? or > so devotees most of whom are not regular followers as such but general > Hindus but sometimes take time to visit the temple. But at the time of the > festival of chariots which happens on the beachfront in Durban there may be > about a 100 000 devotees (this is according to the rough estimate by local > newspapers) attending the festival on a daily basis during the three days > of the festival. So perhpas the question needs to be put differently. > > Pratap > > >Can someone inform me how many supporters the Hare Krishna (ISKCON) > >movement has > >worldwide? How many of these live in India? > > > >David > > Prof. P. Kumar, Centre for Religious Studies, University of Durban-Westivlle > Private BagX54001, Durban, 4000 > South Africa, Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work), Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work) > Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za > > Director of the 18th Quinquennial Congress of the IAHR Durban- August 5-12 2000 > For more info on the Congress please see: > http://www.udw.ac.za/iahr > > *IMPORTANT NOTICE: THOSE COMING TO THE IAHR:DURBAN PLEASE READ THIS* > > Delegates to the IAHR Durban congress can now deposit the congress related > fees in to the following bank account directly. Although we still accept > checks and credit card modes of payment, in order to lessen the > administrative and other delays in transacting those payments, the > secretariat will prefer payments directly into the Bank account given below > and send us the deposit slip either by fax or ordinary mail. > > ???????????????????????????????? Name of Account: IAHR: Durban 2000 > ???????????????????????????????? Name of Bank: First National Bank, South Africa > ???????????????????????????????? Branch Name : Durban North, Broadway Branch > ???????????????????????????????? Branch Code:? 220426 > ???????????????????????????????? Account No: 62010873017 ? From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 3 22:28:38 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 99 14:28:38 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053269.23782.7030874212377199222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> PKM:More specifically, are there references to Buddhism and PKM:writing in the Ramayana? There is not much reference to Buddhism and writing in the Ram. The Ram. may predate writing in buddhism. Modeled after brahminical religion, the early hinayana concentrates mainly on oral transmission. From aural to visual/writing transition happens in the mahayana phase of buddhism. Many mahayana sutras are written in the Dravidian south, Andhra and Kanchi. Contrasting the northern nonpreference for writing with the praise for it in the south, one can say buddhist writings got a thrust from the south. The patronage from the sea-faring merchant communities of tamil/telugu coasts was important for the writing and spread of buddhist sutras to southeast/east asia. The southeast asian scripts originate from the Pallava grantha letters. Even the earliest buddhist sayings get written down in the far south (Lanka). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 3 23:38:46 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 99 15:38:46 -0800 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053271.23782.6897535918024107477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >What is the earliest reference linking Sankara with Kaladi? Thanks in >advance. The earliest reference would probably be in the Sankaravijaya of Madhava, traditionally identified with Vidyaranya. There is another account by one Anantanandagiri, which identifies Chidambaram as Sankara's birthplace. This text is a late one, as it refers to and quotes from the Adhikarana Ratnamala of Bharati Tirtha and Vidyaranya. There are said to be other Puranic accounts regarding Sankara. Details may be found in G. C. Pande's 1994 book on Sankara's life. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Nov 4 00:02:46 1999 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert P. Goldman) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 99 16:02:46 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? In-Reply-To: <3821BCE3.8F96948D@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227053273.23782.10607487842751575311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There seems to be little in the way of unambiguous reference to writing in the Valmiki Ramayana other than the references to Rama's signet ring, famously given by him to Hanuman as a token of recognition for Sita. At 4. 43 11 the ring is said to be svanAmANKopaZobhitam and again at 5.34. 2 to be rAmanAmANkitam. ( refs. are to the crit. ed.). This would certainly appear to suggest that some kind of writing was involved although it is not, perhaps, conclusive.. >More specifically, are there references to Buddhism and writing >in the Ramayana? > >Regards, >Paul Kekai Manansala > >-- >Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ Dr. R. P. Goldman Sarah Kailath Professor in India Studies Professor of Sanskrit and Chairman, Center for South Asia Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 4 00:49:23 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 99 16:49:23 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate Message-ID: <161227053276.23782.13731494586838223677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >There is not much reference to Buddhism and writing in the Ram. >The Ram. may predate writing in buddhism. I'm sure that there's a reference to the Buddha in RAmAyanam. He's referred to as a nAstika in one place. >Modeled after brahminical religion, the early hinayana concentrates >mainly >on oral transmission. From aural to visual/writing transition >happens in >the mahayana phase of buddhism. Many mahayana sutras are >written in the >Dravidian south, Andhra and Kanchi. Not so. Then why is HinayAna called Southern Buddhism and MahAyAna as northern? And if MahAyana was indeed prevelant down South, then its influence would've been seen in Ceylon, which is on the contrary staunchly HinayAnistic. Also note that Tibet and China are MahAyAnistic - the missionary activity went through the Northern way. And the great MahAyAna AchAryas - Asanga, VAsubandhu and Ashvaghosa are all Northerners. Though NAgArjuna, DignAga and Dharmakirti are supposed to be Southerners, they too achieved their fame as teachers in Takshila - in the North. Even the VaibhAshikas who've extensive written literature in Samskrutam are Kashmiri bauddhas. Also note that Buddhaghosa, who was a Southerner and a contemporary of Asanga and VAsubandhu, travelled to Ceylon and wrote commentaries on the NikhAyas and other profound works in HinayAna. If early HinayAna had a oral tradition it is only because it copied the brahmanical way, which was time tested. Even more valid reason is that the script itself was not so well developed at that time. >Contrasting the northern nonpreference for writing with the praise for it >in the >south, one can say buddhist writings got a thrust from the south. >The >patronage from the sea-faring merchant communities of tamil/telugu > >coasts was important for the writing and spread of buddhist sutras to > >southeast/east asia. The southeast asian scripts originate from the > >Pallava grantha letters. Even the earliest buddhist sayings get >written >down in the far south (Lanka). I don't think there's much justification to these claims, for MahAyAna literature is predominantly in Samskrutam which reflects brahmincal influence. So if oral teaching was the brahmanical preference, then the MahAyAna SUtrams too would have been transmitted that way. The main reasons for the brahmanical oral tradition are : 1. the way the mantrams are pronounced are very important, so it has to be taught correctly in the oral way, 2. the brahmanic veda adhikAram or the right to teach the shruti - which was a way to ensure that only the brahmins taught it and 3. they taught it to the right people. But Buddhism, especially MahAyAna, being more egalitarian had none of these constraints and since its missionaries went far and wide to preach the truth, might have considered written texts as more convinient to preserve the tradition. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 4 01:48:40 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 99 17:48:40 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate Message-ID: <161227053278.23782.2238031540756184474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: nanda chandran Subject: Re: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:49:23 PST >There is not much reference to Buddhism and writing in the Ram. >The Ram. may predate writing in buddhism. Nanda Chandran wrote: I'm sure that there's a reference to the Buddha in RAmAyanam. He's referred to as a nAstika in one place. VA writes: You are probably referring to the verse 'Buddha hi stenah..." which calls Bhagvan Buddha a thief. The critical edition of Baroda includes it in the text but I think this is a mistake. Although the Dakshinatya and Vangiya recensions of Ramayana have this verse, it is missing in the Pascimottariya recension.The editiorial staff of Baroda largely worked on the premise that the Dakshinatya recension was the closest to Ur-Ramayana. While non-Paninean usages are more common in the Dakshinatya recension, this does not prove the that this verse in particular (or even that chapter) belonged to Ur-Ramayana. In brief, such hatred for Lord Buddha would be anachronistic in a text like Ramayana. 'Higher criticism' therefore can be used here to weed out this verse. Regards Vishal ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Wed Nov 3 16:04:10 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 99 18:04:10 +0200 Subject: Are the gods literate? In-Reply-To: <0.1e467168.254f8562@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227053265.23782.11845048637392971156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op dinsdag, 02-nov-99 schreef Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan: SP| Tamil ziva is indeed literate. SP| There are some other stories regarding ziva in the Tamil zaivism SP| demonstrating ziva's literacy. For instance, the episode of ziva preventing SP| cuntarar's wedding involves ziva producing a document showing that cuntarar SP| was his slave. SP| Even more interesting is the story involving ziva at tiruvoRRiyUr. He is SP| called ezuttaRiyum perumAn2, the Lord who is literate. A brief sketch of the SP| story is this. A king who wanted to die asked his accountant to reduce SP| endowments to all ziva temples. The accountant revised all the accounts to SP| reflect that. But the next day, when they looked at the ledger, they were SP| surprised to find that there was an insertion to the effect " excepting the SP| temple at tiruvoRRiyUr". Of course, the endowment to tiruvoRRiyUr was not SP| reduced! So where did he go to school? Which degree dies he have? Has he ever heard of Shakespear or the Tao-te Ching? Can he use Word, or WordPerfect, or does he use a bicpen? Where does he buy his books, in Motilals? -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel mailto: jehms at kabelfoon.nl *===================================================================================* From wayneb at DNS3.UNIPISSING.CA Thu Nov 4 05:56:15 1999 From: wayneb at DNS3.UNIPISSING.CA (Wayne Borody) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 00:56:15 -0500 Subject: Deja Vu Experiences Message-ID: <161227053284.23782.7953058952705416628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Smith: Once again, thank you for your suggestion regarding Donniger's book. I have examined her book. Although she discusses, in a heuristic manner, the deja vu experience in reference to certain Indian myths, I am not convinced that the myths she discusses are bona fide examples of what is now described as a deja vu experience ( an experience that many psychologists now claim is simply a temporal glitch in perception). Actually there is no Sanskrit term that is comparable to the term "deja vu," a European term coined in the 19th century. While the whole notion of samsara might be connected to the deja vu experience, I can, as yet, find no specific reference to the deja vu experience in Sanskrit literature [e.g.., Veda-Vyasa in his commentary on the Yoga Sutras discusses the "evidence" for samsara; his evidence amounts to anumana, not pratyaksa (comm. on 2.9)]. I am presently working on a comparative study of Nietzsche's doctrine of Eternal recurrence. I am looking at the deja vu experience in an incidental way, as it might relate to Nietzsche's doctrine: hence, my interest in Indian ideas of time other than the cosmic vishva-rupa-deva notion of existence (e.g.., the cosmic form of Krishna in the Gita) or the experience of timelessness implied by the Advaita anirvacaniya doctrine or the Madhyamika's sunya-vada . In any case, yours was the only response to my query. Yours cordially, Wayne Borody From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Nov 4 01:28:57 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 01:28:57 +0000 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate Message-ID: <161227053281.23782.17378973275012695219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Modeled after brahminical religion, the early hinayana concentrates >mainly > >on oral transmission. From aural to visual/writing transition >happens in > >the mahayana phase of buddhism. Many mahayana sutras are >written in the > >Dravidian south, Andhra and Kanchi. > > Not so. Then why is HinayAna called Southern Buddhism and MahAyAna as > northern? And if MahAyana was indeed prevelant down South, then its > influence would've been seen in Ceylon, which is on the contrary staunchly > HinayAnistic. Also note that Tibet and China are MahAyAnistic - the > missionary activity went through the Northern way. No, not so. Hinayana was called Southern Buddhism and Mahayana the Northern as a polite euphemism by early C20th Westerners are mainly reflects the late post-Muslim geographical regions of Buddhism. Mahayana and indeed Tantric Buddhism flourished for a while in Sri Lanka and was only expelled by royal decree at a late date. Mahayana was also very active in the present-day area of Indonesia. There were many Hinayana adherents in north India, Central Asia and China. Indeed the label "Hinayana" fairly specifically refers to Kashmiri Sarvaastivaada in Mahayana polemics. The fact is many Mahayana suutras were ritten in southern and eastern India. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Nov 4 07:01:23 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 02:01:23 -0500 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053286.23782.4210898615082705277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 11/3/99 5:39:38 PM Central Standard Time, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > The earliest reference would probably be in the Sankaravijaya of Madhava, > traditionally identified with Vidyaranya. In that case, the earliest reference linking Kaladi and Sankara is a Tamil inscription that belongs to the 20th regnal year of mARavarman2 cuntarapANtiyan2 I (1235-36 A.D.). The inscription (SII 5, no. 431) is in the nellaiyappar temple in tirunelvEli in Tamilnadu. The interesting aspect of this inscription is that it does not refer to Sankara directly. Instead, it refers to a Pandiyan official/chieftain who had a linga installed at the temple in the following words: "kAlaTiccaGkaran azakiyaperumALAn2a mazavarAyar pUcittu ikkOyilil AzrayalimgamAka ezuntaruLuvitta cokkan2Arkku.." Here a person has been named kAlaTiccaGkaran (Sankara of Kaladi). If we take this person to be the father of azakiyaperumAL, the mazavarAyar, then the father should have received the name probably towards the end of the 12th century. From the details in the inscription, we know that the family belonged to the western Tirunelveli region. So the name kAlaTi (Kaladi) did not refer to the natal village of anybody in the chieftain's family. So, unless we have a kAlaTi in tirunelvEli region, the person was indeed named after Sankara of Kaladi. What is particularly interesting is that kAlaTiccaGkaran was a non-brahmin official who would otherwise be called a veLLALa or zUdra. cEkkizAr, the veLLALa minister of the Chola king, refers to veLLALas as zUdras in his periyapurANam of the 12th century. Moreover, cEkkizAr was the one who called a Chola king known for his impartial justice as "manu nIti". All these make one wonder if the veLLALas in the 12th century knew what Sankara and Manu thought of the zUdras? Or was it just syncretism on the part of kALaTiccaGkaran2's parents to name their son after Sankara of Kaladi? Or was there a compromise between advaita and zaivasiddhAnta? Or had the idea of Sankara as an avatAra of dakSiNAmUrti become so popular as to lead to his acceptance even by devout zaivite veLLALas who would otherwise be opposed to advaita? Coincidentally, western tirunelvEli region is also where we find potiyil, the original locus of the dakSiNAmUrti cult. In any case, it is obvious that the value of Tamil inscriptions for Indological research has been grossly underestimated till now. There is an urgent need to publish and create a digitized data base of all the Tamil inscriptions. Are there any Indologists to take up this cause? Regards S. Palaniappan From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 4 12:48:51 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 04:48:51 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate Message-ID: <161227053297.23782.15299685536337750927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There was a brief period of mahayana in Ceylon history. Known as abhayagiri vihara heresy. In the last few years, many avalokita sculptures have been dug out, now incorporated into folk Buddhism as Natha. Also, there are Kannaki and Skanda deities. Mahayana sutras gandavyuha, lankavatara, ... are likely southern texts. manjusrimulakalpa was written in sriparvata mountain. mahayana sutra material, from Tibetan, Oriental or Buddhist Sanskrit material, have not been subjected to academic study for south indian-specific items. Example: The different sites that Sudhana visits in gandavyuha or the sea deity saving people from ship wrecks in the lotus sutra (Mallmann connects to Iranian sources, while silappathikaram and manimekalai have these deities), etc., etc., Regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From slade at VONNEUMANN.COG.JHU.EDU Thu Nov 4 12:44:08 1999 From: slade at VONNEUMANN.COG.JHU.EDU (Benjamin Slade) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 07:44:08 -0500 Subject: None In-Reply-To: <0.636a0459.25528943@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227053299.23782.10374009241804808586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> List Administrator--could you please change my e-mail to: . Thank You...Ben ____________________________________________________________________ Benjamin Slade Department of Cognitive Science Johns Hopkins University Baltimore, MD 21218-2685 USA E-mail: slade at cogsci.jhu.edu Office: Krieger 140 Tel No: 410-516-2887 Fax No: 410-516-8020 http://www.cog.jhu.edu/grad-students/slade/ From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Nov 4 16:39:22 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 08:39:22 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053258.23782.860124015797027588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How about opinions on the dates for the references to writing given in the epics? Do the epics associate writing with Buddhism? In fact, I've never really investigated references to Buddhism in the epics. Are there any? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Thu Nov 4 07:42:26 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 08:42:26 +0100 Subject: Deja Vu Experiences Message-ID: <161227053289.23782.14372395418481528403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Wayne, (I'm afraid it is too obvious to be of any use:) nyAya-sUtra III/1. 18-26 is related to your query. Yours, Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa assistant professor of philosophy E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Nov 4 17:05:39 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 09:05:39 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053262.23782.12546889858993995867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> More specifically, are there references to Buddhism and writing in the Ramayana? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK Thu Nov 4 09:14:16 1999 From: SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK (John Brockington) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 09:14:16 +0000 Subject: Buddha/writing in the Ramayana Message-ID: <161227053291.23782.11580658243685427191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:05:39 -0800 >From: Paul Kekai Manansala >Subject: Re: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >More specifically, are there references to Buddhism and writing >in the Ramayana? > >Regards, >Paul Kekai Manansala > >?From my _Righteous Rama_ (Delhi, 1984), p. 210: The term 'sramana, in other texts often denoting a Buddhist monk, occurs in the first stage to describe the 'Sabara woman (3.69.19 and 70.7, also 1.1.46), who follows more or less orthodox ascetic practices, in the second stage in an obscure reference to an incident of Mandhat.r's career (4.18.31), and even in the third stage linked as worthy individuals with brahmans (1.13.8); however, the Buddha is once mentioned and condemned in the fourth stage (2.2241* 13[l.v.]). and p. 185: The question of writing in the Ramayana has been extensively discussed [fn. refs], especially with regard to its bearing on the date of the poem. There are in fact very few references in the text but these are all to marking objects with a name, not to the use of writing for extended documents of whatever type. The better known are the two mentions of the ring marked with his own name which Rama gives to Hanuman as a token for Sita (4.43.11 and 5.34.2); most recently Sankalia, regarding this as a definite signet-ring, has argued that therefore this episode postdates the introduction of signet-rings via the Indo-Greeks. However, despite the expansion visible in the second passage, both references belong apparently to the first stage, as do two references to arrows marked with names, and it seems impossible to assign so late a date to the core of the work. Further discussion (including the references to the arrows "marked with Rama's name" at 5.19.21 and 6.52.25) continues on pp. 186-7. [All references to the text are to the Critical Edition and to stages to the phases of development identified in the book.] John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies University of Edinburgh 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW U.K. tel: +131 650 4174 fax: +131 651 1258 From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Thu Nov 4 09:31:40 1999 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 11:31:40 +0200 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate In-Reply-To: <012101bf2667$2dd53e20$5adb883e@default> Message-ID: <161227053294.23782.17793200832601778189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >No, not so. Hinayana was called Southern Buddhism and Mahayana the >Northern as a polite euphemism by early C20th Westerners are mainly >reflects the late post-Muslim geographical regions of Buddhism. >Mahayana and indeed Tantric Buddhism flourished for a while in Sri etc. Quite correct, but instead of the early 20th say early 19th (Hodgson, Burnouf et al.). The Sanskrit texts of Mahayana were then only known from Nepal and Mahayana in general from Tibet, Mongolia, China and Japan, while Pali texts and Theravada remained in Sri Lanka and South East Asia. Regards Klaus Klaus Karttunen Institute for Asian and African Studies Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094 From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Nov 4 17:08:56 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 12:08:56 -0500 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053303.23782.9705777587965227677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 11/2/99 10:21:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > In my opinion, the RV, SV and VYV samhitas do not have any unambiguous > evidence of writing. The last mantra of AV (Vulgate) book XIX however refers > to 'placing the Vedas in the kosha'. Since the XIXth book is often taken as > the last book of AV (vulgate), with the XXth book as a later addition (of > course, even the XIX book could have been added to the first 18 in hoary > antiquity), the position of this mantra (and its context) tempts us to > believe that some 'written' texts of Vedas did exist at a date prior to that > attested by archaeology. > This particular mantra is actually taken by numerous Hindi and Marathi > Bhasyas and Tikas as referring to 'physical texts' of the Vedas (This is > true especially of the Arya Samaj interpretations). What is your opinion on > this mantra? I must say that I am not persuaded that AVZ 19.72 provides us with clear evidence of writing. The key question which this passage raises is the exact meaning of the term *ve'da* here. Does it refer to a collection of Vedic texts such as the saMhitAs, and by implication a tangible, manipulable, collection, such as a book? As for the first part of this question, J. Bronkhorst has argued that the term *ve'da* does not appear to have the sense 'collection of Vedic texts' even in relatively late passages from the brAhmaNas. In its earliest usages the term appears to be roughly a synonym of a term like *bra'hman*, characterizng a type or genre of 'sacred speech', rather than a collection such as we have in the saMhitAs. He even argues that terms like *Rgveda*, *yajurveda* and *sAmaveda* may not originally have referred to the saMhitA collections as we now have them. See his article "Veda" in ABORI 70, 1989. AVZ 19.72 [a sUkta consisting of only one stanza] does seem to form a ring structure with AVZ 1.1, an invocation of vAcaspati and entrance into veda study. But AVZ 1.1 certainly suggests that veda study is largely a matter of memorization and recitation [cf. repeated *zrut'am*]. As P. Thieme has argued in a fascinating article ["The First Verse of the *triSaptIyam (AV,Z 1.1 ~ AV,P 1.6) and the Beginnings of Sanskrit Linguistics" in JAOS 105, 1985], initiation into veda study also involved initiation into phonological analysis [as Thieme argues, the 'thrice-seven' cryptically referred to in this verse represents an old varNopadeza]. But the important point is this: no explicit reference to writing. As for the curious reference to the dipping of the veda into a koza at AVZ 19.72, the only passage in the RV where the term *ve'da* is attested may be illuminating. RV 8.19.5 reads: ya'H sami'dhA ya' A'hutI yo' ve'dena dadA'za ma'rto agna'ye yo' na'masA svadhvara'H The sequence of instrumentals: sami'dhA, A'hutI, ve'dena, and na'masA suggests a motif that is rather frequent in the RV: that is, the tools of the Vedic ritualist's trade are things like kindling wood, oblations, sacred speech, and homage. And there is strong association between offerings of milk products into the sacrifical fire and offerings of mantras into it. Here the term *ve'da* serves as the term for sacred speech, analogous by function with the other tools of the ritualist's repertoire. Considering the frequent reference to the flow of speech in the RV, and the bandhu linking milk and soma and speech, it may well be that the dipping of the veda into a koza at AVZ 19.72 is a metaphorical transfer: the Vedic ritual koza contains not only milk and honey and soma; it also contains that metaphorical 'flow of speech' that is the veda. Not a physical collection of Vedic texts, but rather the genre of sacred speech. Clearly, there is no claim to certainty about this. Please take it as a suggestion for consideration. George Thompson From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Nov 4 20:23:26 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 12:23:26 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate Message-ID: <161227053305.23782.3579560837535041039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- nanda chandran wrote: > The main reasons for the brahmanical oral tradition are : 1. the way the > mantrams are pronounced are very important, so it has to be taught correctly > in the oral way, 2. the brahmanic veda adhikAram or the right to teach the > shruti - which was a way to ensure that only the brahmins taught it and 3. > they taught it to the right people. In Bali and Cambodia, ethnic Non-Indians have become brahmins and they teach their own vedic mantras. Their mantras sound very different to Indian ears. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From a.korn at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Thu Nov 4 16:26:23 1999 From: a.korn at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (agnes korn) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 17:26:23 +0100 Subject: Papers on Indian Goddesses needed Message-ID: <161227053301.23782.2745551650121727512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear ?zge ?zbek, if you read German, you might be interested in this: Manfred Hutter (Hg.) DIE ROLLE DES WEIBLICHEN IN DER INDISCHEN UND BUDDHISTISCHEN KULTURGESCHICHTE Akten des religionswissenschaftlichen Symposiums "Frau und G?ttin" 240 Seiten, kt. ?S 298,-, DM 41,-, sFr 38,- ISBN 3-7011-0020-9 publishing house: Leykam (Graz/Austria) Elf AutorInnen aus ?sterreich, Deutschland und Japan stellen unterschiedliche Rollenbilder dar, die Frauen innerhalb des Hinduismus bzw. Buddhismus zugewiesen werden. Die Entstehung solcher Rollenbilder wird anhand der Anlayse altindischer Quellen verdeutlicht, und religionssoziologische bzw. ethnologische Fragestellungen illustrieren die Auswirkungen derselben auf Frauen der Gegenwart Ozge OZBEK wrote: > Hello, > > I am studying in the department of Indology, Ankara University, Turkey. > I am expected to make a search on and compose a report about Indian > Goddesses as my thesis. The resources in Turkey about this subject are > limited. Can you help me locate some papers on this subject, or better, > send them to me? > > Thank you very much, > > Ozge Ozbek -- ........................................................................ Agnes Korn Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft : Tel. + 49 - 69 - 798 22 847 Universitaet Frankfurt : Fax + 49 - 69 - 798 22 873 PF 11 19 32 : http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de D - 60054 Frankfurt : mailto:a.korn at em.uni-frankfurt.de From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 5 02:20:36 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 21:20:36 -0500 Subject: Permissable Indo-european roots Message-ID: <161227053307.23782.5465842347843190474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Dr. Witzel's recent article in Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 5-1 "Substrate Languages in Old Indo-Aryan" gives the following formula for permissable indo-european roots: prefixes +/-{(s)(C)(R)(e)(R)(C/s)}+/-suffixes with the restrictions: 1) sounds inside a root arranged in order of preference C/s-R-e 2) non-permissable consonent groups, the types: bed, bhet, tebh, pep, teurk/tekt (Skt. *bad, bhad, tabh, pap, tork, takt) 3) b is very rare in IE; 4)only S (but not) s is allowed in Vedic after i,u,r,k Examples kIn, kIk, mag, balb, bRs are given as examples of verbal/nominal roots that do not exist in IE as not conforming to the formula {(C)(R)e(R)(C)}. Can someone explain to me why "mag" which appears to be form (ReC) is not a permissable IE/IIr root? Dr. Witzel gives among the examples of a permissable root the form (CReC)zrath, and the form (sReC)svap, but no form (ReC). Also Robert Beekes in his book "Comparative Indo-European Linguistics" in 12.1.1 and 11.10.6 gives as not permitted in IE roots: 1) two voiced consonents. 2) unvoiced + (voiced)aspirated in same root. Is Dr. Witzel's list of non-permitted consonent groups i.e. bed, bhet, tebh, pep, teurk/tekt a further refinement to the above criteria from Dr.Beekes book? Yours, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Road Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 5 02:22:11 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 99 21:22:11 -0500 Subject: Date of Rg Veda book 9 Message-ID: <161227053309.23782.2978981358805810217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, In Dr. Witzel's recent article in Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 5-1 "Substrate Languages in Old Indo-Aryan" in his division of the Rg Veda into three time periods (I. early Rgvedic, II. middle Rgvedic and III.) there is no mention of Rg Veda book 9. Dr. Gardner in his thesis "The Developing Terminology for the Vedic Self" in chapter 3 "Relative chronology of early and middle vedic" says about book 9: chapter 3-d "...in the case of the 9th, however, as it is a collection of the hymns for the Soma ritual drawn from the other books , much of the material is quite old." In chapter3-i (conclusions) has RV 9 as younger than all the books except book 10. A.A. MacDonell in "A Vedic Reader for Students" in section 4. of the introduction "Arrangement of the Rigveda" says about book 9. 1) ...the hymns of Book ix were composed by authors of the same families as those of Books ii to vii, as is shown, for instance, by the appearance here of refrains peculiar to those families. Hence it is to be assumed that all the hymns to Soma PavamAna were removed from Books i-viii, which were the sphere of the HotR or reciting priest in order to form a single collection belonging to the sphere of the UdgAtR or chanting priest." 2)"The diction and recondite allusions in the hymns of this book suggest that they are later than those of the preceding books;" 3)"but some of them [hymns of book 9] may be early, as accompanying the Soma ritual which goes back to the Indo-Iranian period." Mainly I'm wondering why book 9 was not included in Dr. Witzel's three stage division. And secondly how is it that it can be considered as originally part of the other books but also to be dated as later than them. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Road Hurleyville, New York 12747 USA ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Nov 5 07:32:31 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 99 07:32:31 +0000 Subject: Deja Vu Experiences In-Reply-To: <38211FFF.F39BCB08@dns3.unipissing.ca> Message-ID: <161227053311.23782.15175225646040904107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 4 Nov 1999, Wayne Borody wrote: > I am presently working on a comparative study of Nietzsche's doctrine of > Eternal recurrence. The film Groundhog Day, starring Bill Murray and Andy Macdowell, is amongst my family's favourites, and is an intriguing treatment of the recurrence theme. Does anyone know where PD Ouspensky got the idea for his recurrence novel, The Strange Life of Ivan Osokin? Was it Nietzsche? Or was Ouspensky using ideas picked up during his Indian travels? -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 5 15:37:12 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 99 07:37:12 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053322.23782.8118127481507709670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few sources on literacy, south & mahayana, .. i) Lokesh Chandra, oDDiyANa: A new interpretation L. Sternbach fel. vol., part I, Lucknow, 1979 (identifies Kanchi as oDDiyANa and many leads on southern buddhism). ii) Buddhism in Tamil Nadu: Collected papers, Inst. of Asian studies, 1998 (new discoveries, results from an intl. conference) iii) G. Schopen, Bones, stones and Buddhist monks, 1997 iv) D. K. Dohanian, The Mahayana Buddhist sculpture of Ceylon, NY: Garland publishing, 1977 v) J. C. Holt, Buddha in the crown: Avalokitezvara in the Buddhist tradition of Sri Lanka, OUP, 1991 vi) David McMahan, Orality, writing and authority in south asian buddhism: visionary literature and the struggle for legitimacy in the mahayana, History of Religions, 1998, 37, 3, p. 249-274 vii) P. G. Patel, Lingusitic and cognitive aspects of the orality-literacy complex in ancient India, Language & Communication, 1996, 16, 4, p. 315-330 viii) I. Mahadevan, From Orality to Literacy: The case of the Tamil society, Studies in History, 11, 2, p. 173-188 (1995) Sage Publications (N. Delhi/Thousand Oaks/London). (A seminal essay, compares the tamil situation with that prevailing in telugu/kannada regions). Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Fri Nov 5 09:57:23 1999 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie.fellows) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 99 07:57:23 -0200 Subject: Deja Vu Experiences Message-ID: <161227053315.23782.18277350041280678845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know where PD Ouspensky got the idea for >his recurrence novel, The Strange Life of Ivan Osokin? Was it Nietzsche? >Or was Ouspensky using ideas picked up during his Indian travels? Both but most particularly from his Indian travels. Although published after his decisive meeting with Gurdjieff ( 1915 ), the book was conceived before and has a bit of his transmigration theory, put forward briefly in his Fragments of an Unknown Teaching. J.C. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 5 17:38:14 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 99 09:38:14 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate Message-ID: <161227053327.23782.3584179847283851918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodges writes : >No, not so. Hinayana was called Southern Buddhism and Mahayana the >Northern as a polite euphemism by early C20th Westerners are mainly >reflects the late post-Muslim geographical regions of Buddhism. >Mahayana and indeed Tantric Buddhism flourished for a while in Sri >Lanka and was only expelled by royal decree at a late date. Mahayana >was also very active in the present-day area of Indonesia. There >were many Hinayana adherents in north India, Central Asia and China. >Indeed the label "Hinayana" fairly specifically refers to Kashmiri >Sarvaastivaada in Mahayana polemics. Think about this : VaibhAsikas are from Kashmir. MahAyAna polemics on HinayAna is predominantly directed towards the SarvAstivAdins - ie by HinayAna, the MahAyAnists only understood it as SarvAstivAdins (to a great extent the VaibhAsikas). There's very little reference in MahAyAna literature to the Abhidhamma thought as developed in the PAli works - Buddhagosha, Aniruddha etc. And vice versa too - the Southern PAli authors too seem to make little or no reference to MahAyAna thought. So if MahAyAna had infact flourished in Southern India - 1. It would have included the PAli Abhidhamma thought in its polemics against HinayAna. 2. The PAli HinayAnists would have referred often to the MahAyAnists in their works and 3. How could the MahAyAnists been so familiar with the VaibhAsika thought, which was from the Northern most part of India - so familiar that they considered it to be the most important representative of HinayAna? And it's also to be noted that Southern India was not so exposed to invasions as Northern India was. So if JainAs remain in today's Southern India, wouldn't the Buddhists too? Also the long history of Southern Indian Kings, who regularly raided Lanka and devastated its Buddhist culture - not a strong indication of any favorable disposition towards Buddhism - infact the evidence seems to support rank animosity. The local cultures too show none of the Buddhist traits - vegetarianism for example. So, I'm not very convinced that Buddhism 'flourished' in Southern India. Maybe a few great AchAryas with their small following existed and probably had a good deal of influence in intellectual and royal circles, but whether it was really widespread, I doubt it. >The fact is many Mahayana suutras were ritten in southern and eastern >India. Please enlighten me with the facts which support such a conclusion. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From katharinah22 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 5 10:56:33 1999 From: katharinah22 at HOTMAIL.COM (Katharina Heinrich) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 99 10:56:33 +0000 Subject: Bhamaha-Kavyalamkara Message-ID: <161227053317.23782.568924165779168695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Reader, my aim is to produce an essay on sanskrit poetics with Bhamaha?s work Kavyalamkara as a primary source and reference. Reading the editions of P.V Nag. Sastry (Tanjore 1927)and Batuk Nath Sarma and Baladeva Upadhyaya (Kashi S.Series 1928)I miss a decent commentary, preferably in sanskrit or hindi. I know of only one, namely D.T. Tatacharya?s "Udyanavritti" from 1934. Where could I get hold of this edition? I will be thankful for any help regarding commentaries and works on/relating to Bhamaha. With kind regards, Katharina Heinrich. From kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA Fri Nov 5 09:18:39 1999 From: kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA (Prof. P. Kumar) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 99 11:18:39 +0200 Subject: Papers on Indian Goddesses needed Message-ID: <161227053313.23782.2284582506398050680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear ?zge ?zbek, I don't mean to promote my own book but I have written a book -- P. Pratap Kumar, The Goddess Laksmi: The Divine Consort in South Indian Vaisnava Tradition, Atlanta, GA: Scholars Press, 1997. ISBN:0-7885-0199-2 Pratap >> Hello, >> >> I am studying in the department of Indology, Ankara University, Turkey. >> I am expected to make a search on and compose a report about Indian >> Goddesses as my thesis. The resources in Turkey about this subject are >> limited. Can you help me locate some papers on this subject, or better, >> send them to me? >> >> Thank you very much, >> >> Ozge Ozbek > > > >-- >........................................................................ > > Agnes Korn > Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft : Tel. + 49 - 69 - 798 22 847 > Universitaet Frankfurt : Fax + 49 - 69 - 798 22 873 > PF 11 19 32 : http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de > D - 60054 Frankfurt : mailto:a.korn at em.uni-frankfurt.de Prof. P. Kumar, Centre for Religious Studies, University of Durban-Westivlle Private BagX54001, Durban, 4000 South Africa, Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work), Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work) Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Director of the 18th Quinquennial Congress of the IAHR Durban- August 5-12 2000 For more info on the Congress please see: http://www.udw.ac.za/iahr *IMPORTANT NOTICE: THOSE COMING TO THE IAHR:DURBAN PLEASE READ THIS* Delegates to the IAHR Durban congress can now deposit the congress related fees in to the following bank account directly. Although we still accept checks and credit card modes of payment, in order to lessen the administrative and other delays in transacting those payments, the secretariat will prefer payments directly into the Bank account given below and send us the deposit slip either by fax or ordinary mail. Name of Account: IAHR: Durban 2000 Name of Bank: First National Bank, South Africa Branch Name : Durban North, Broadway Branch Branch Code: 220426 Account No: 62010873017 From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU Fri Nov 5 17:21:58 1999 From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 99 11:21:58 -0600 Subject: Bhamaha-Kavyalamkara In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053324.23782.12958712016385704088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Katharina Heinrich, Bad luck --I have an extra copy of Ruyyaka's Alamkarasutra (TSS 1915), but I don't have the edition of Bhamaha's work that you're looking for. I list some editions below. You should certainly have a look at the work of Raniero Gnoli (1962). M.R. Telang's edition has a useful commentary. Note that D.T. Tatacharyas "Udyanavritti" was published earlier (1927) as well. I don't know where you'll find a copy outside of India. C. Sankara Rama Sastry's edition (1926) might also be useful for its trans. and notes. (Apologies for the weird spellings - I *still* use Pine, which swallows up the diacritics from my word processing file.) Kvylakra of Bhmaha. Appendix VIII of the Pratparudrayaobhaa of Vidyntha. Ed. K. P. Trivedi. Bombay Sanskrit and Prakrit Series 65. Bombay: Department of Public Instruction, 1909. Kvylakra of Bhmaha. With the comm. Vivaraa of Udbhaa. Text with Prat^hrendu's comm. by M. R. Telang. Bombay: NSP, 1905 and 1915. Kvylakra of Bhmaha. With the comm. Vivaraa of Udbhaa. Text with Prat^hrendu's comm. Ed. N. D. Banhatti. Bombay Sanskrit Series, Poona,1925. Kvylakra of Bhmaha. Ed. D. T. Tatacharya Siromani with the Udynavtti. Tiruvadi, 1927. Kvylakra of Bhmaha. Paricchedas 1-6. Edition with English translation and notes on Paricchedas 1-3 by C. Sankara Rama Sastry. Mylapore, Madras, 1956. Kvylakra of Bhmaha. Patna: Bihar Rrabh Pariad Prakan, 1961. Kvylakra of Bhmaha. (Udbhata's commentary on the Kvylakra of Bhmaha) With the comm. Vivaraa of Udbhaa. Ed. Raniero Gnoli. Serie Orientale Roma 27, Roma: Istituto per il Medio ed Estremo Oriente, 1962. For secondary lit. you might see G. Jenner (1968), V.M. Kulkarni (1983) and: De, Sushil Kumar. "Bhmaha's Views on Gua". In Commemorative Essays Presented to Professor Kashinath Bapuji Pathak. Poona: Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, 1934, pp. 353-358 Jacobi, Hermann (Georg). "Bhmaha und Dain, ihr Alter und ihre Stellung in der indischen Poetik". Sitzungsberichte der preussischen Akademie der Wissenschaften. Vol. XXIV, (1922) pp. 210-226. Kane, P. V. "Bhmaha, the Nysa and Mgha". The Journal of the Bombay Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society, (Old Series) 23 (1914), pp. 91-95. Krishnamoorthy, K. "Bhmaha". Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal, vol. 12 (1974), pp 168-178. Mazzarino, Vincenzina. "Bhmaha's 'three-fold' lilakra". Indologica Taurinensia, 15-16 (1989-90), pp. 249-263. Nandi, Tapasvi. "Bhmaha's Mind". Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bombay. New Series. Vols. 54-55 (1979-80 [1983]), pp. 82-94. Pathak, K. B. "Bhmaha's Attacks on the Buddhist Grammarian Jinendrabuddhi". The Journal of the Bombay Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society, 23 (1914), pp. 18-31. Sarma, Ramanihala. "Bhmaha-samata-kvyasvarpnusadhnam". Medha (Raipur), vol. 2, pts. 1-2 (July 1961- April 1962), pp. 44-53. Sastri, N. Aiyaswami. "Bhmaha". Journal of the Sri Venkatesvara Oriental Institute, Vol. 3, no. 2 (July-Dec. 1942), pp. 243-250. Simha, Lala Ramayadupala. "Bhmaha's Conception of Rasa". Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, 42, pts. 1-4 (1961), pp. 175-180. Trivedi, K. P. "Some Notes on Bhmaha". In: Commemorative Essays Presented to Sir Ramkrishna Gopal Bhandarkar. Poona: BORI, 1917, pp. 401-412. van der Kuijp, Leonard W. J. "Bhmaha in Tibet". Indo-Iranian Journal, 28 (1986), pp. 31-39. Veerabhadra Swamy, M. R. "Bhmaha's Contribution to Indian Poetics". In Studies in Alakra stra. Eds. H. V. Nagaraja Rao and M. Shivakumara Swamy. Mysore: Pratibha Samsat, 1989, pp. 55-58. I've left out references which deal with the chronology of Bhamaha and Dandin. best, Tim Cahill From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Fri Nov 5 11:16:31 1999 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 99 12:16:31 +0100 Subject: (Fwd) Spanish Flu in India 1918-1919 Message-ID: <161227053319.23782.3150796015553342093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 18:03:57 +0200 From: Jay Soni Subject: Spanish Flu in India 1918-1919 Does anyone know of any literature, historical reports or novels, etc, based on this tragic phase of Indian history, killing 16 million (sic) people? This is for an acquaintance of mine who thinks that this has somehow been suppressed and is looking for anything on the subject. Thanks in advance for any help. Jay Soni From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Nov 6 01:34:15 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 99 01:34:15 +0000 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate Message-ID: <161227053329.23782.16760858065823132565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Nanda ! > Think about this : VaibhAsikas are from Kashmir. MahAyAna polemics on > HinayAna is predominantly directed towards the SarvAstivAdins - ie by > HinayAna, the MahAyAnists only understood it as SarvAstivAdins (to a > great extent the VaibhAsikas). There's very little reference in > MahAyAna literature to the Abhidhamma thought as developed in the > PAli works - Buddhagosha, Aniruddha etc. And vice versa too - the > Southern PAli authors too seem to make little or no reference to > MahAyAna thought. Yes, it seems as if Theravada Buddhism in Sri Lanka was fairly isolated from northern India although people like Buddhaghosa have borrowed a fair amount from Mahayana materials. I think there is a time gap between the composition of the early Mahayana sutras and the rise of the scholastic Buddhism that was centred on Nalanda (Bihar), Valabhi (Gujerat) and Ratnagiri (Orissa). The earliest Mahayana texts were not written in "classical" Sanskrit but the well-known hybrid version, perhaps refelcting an earlier more coloquial phase. > So if MahAyAna had infact flourished in Southern India - 1. It would > have included the PAli Abhidhamma thought in its polemics against > HinayAna. 2. The PAli HinayAnists would have referred often to the > MahAyAnists in their works and 3. How could the MahAyAnists been so > familiar with the VaibhAsika thought, which was from the Northern most > part of India - so familiar that they considered it to be the most > important representative of HinayAna? 1. It is considered "bad manners" these days to refer to Theravada as Hinayana. Though Mahayana witers mention Hinayana, their clearest doctrinal adversaries were the Sarvastivadins. We just do not know enough about the origins of Mahayana but it seems that they were originally merely a liberal wing of the basic Sangha, i.e. mahayana with a small "m", if you like. There were many other Hinayana groups in India at the time when Mahayana emerged who are never mentioned in Mahayana polemics -- indeed many of the great Mahayana teachers were monks of Hinayana sanghas. People like Asanga are interesting because they belonged to the Mahishasaka school -- they are regarded as the mainland counterparts to the Theravadins. Maybe the gap was smaller between their doctrinal views and the later Mahayana. Others such as the Sautrantika found favour (in part) with avowed Mahayanists such as Dignaga and Dharamkirti. 2. There are references to the Mahayana people in Pali sources -- they are referred to as "vetulla-vada". 3. I am sorry but I can't grasp the point you are trying to make here. > And it's also to be noted that Southern India was not so exposed to > invasions as Northern India was. So if JainAs remain in today's Southern > India, wouldn't the Buddhists too? Also the long history of Southern Indian > Kings, who regularly raided Lanka and devastated its Buddhist culture - not > a strong indication of any favorable disposition towards Buddhism - in fact > the evidence seems to support rank animosity. The local cultures too show > none of the Buddhist traits - vegetarianism for example. So, I'm not very > convinced that Buddhism 'flourished' in Southern India. What, by the way, do you class as South India ? Actually, I was not saying that Buddhism flourished or not in South India -- there certainly was a strong presence in south eastern India but less in south western India. > Maybe a few great AchAryas with their small following existed and probably > had a good deal of influence in intellectual and royal circles, but whether > it was really widespread, I doubt it. That may well be the case. Does it matter ? Best wishes, Stepehn Hodge (no "s" please) From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 6 15:49:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 99 07:49:29 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate Message-ID: <161227053332.23782.18014847092187029025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Maybe a few great AchAryas with their small following existed and >probably had a good deal of influence in intellectual and royal circles, >but whether it was really widespread, I doubt it. We may also consider the fact that scores of Buddha and Avalokita sculptures have been found all across Tamilakam, some in the midst of agricultural fields in tiny villages as high as 10 feet. Within the last few years, a beautiful Buddha statue in the Amaravati style was discovered from the sea at KaveripUmpattinam by fishermen. It is dated to 3-4th century, See Prof. Schalk's article in Kolam in the U. Cologne website. Many buddhist works were destroyed by saivism and vaishnavism and the names and stray verses that survived - vimbisArakathai, kuNTalakEsi epic, etc., The only buddhist epic, maNimEkalai, available in full and veerachozhiyam grammar by Buddhamitran (puttamittiran2aar) show Buddhism's influence. The wars led by South Indian kings in Ceylon were political in nature and did not have much agsainst any religion. There are Buddhist viharas in Chola times with kings bestowing endowments to them. In the last century, Neo-Buddhism was started by a Tamil in Madras. The revival of Buddhism starts with the separate classifying of Buddhists in the Madras presidency in late 1800s. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Sun Nov 7 00:06:31 1999 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 99 16:06:31 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053337.23782.11327128481145869876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > As P. Thieme has argued in a fascinating article ["The First Verse of the > *triSaptIyam (AV,Z 1.1 ~ AV,P 1.6) and the Beginnings of Sanskrit Linguistics" > in JAOS 105, 1985], initiation into veda study also involved initiation into > phonological analysis [as Thieme argues, the 'thrice-seven' cryptically referred > to in this verse represents an old varNopadeza]. George, I remember Prof.Deshpande referring to this article in a lecture at the U of Michigan... what are the 21 items of this old alphabet, as reconstructed by Thieme ? Thanks, -Srini. From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Sun Nov 7 00:24:18 1999 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 99 16:24:18 -0800 Subject: Units used in the Sulbasutras Message-ID: <161227053341.23782.3266777685741284455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Toke Lindegaard Knudsen wrote: > pRthA Did anyone respond to you on this ??? prtha seems to refer to the palm, and is a distance from the tip of the fingers to the knuckles = 13 angulis... I got this off the Colone Digital Sanskrit Lexicon. > akSa > yuga > jAnu akSa, jAnu, bAhu seem to refer to body parts... I know that in Indian lore, if a person has good form, and has hands reaching down to his knees (which is considered a good-thing... at least it is spoken of with some awe), he is called AjAnubAhu... so this may obliquely refer to some measurement criteria. > > zamyA > bAhu > prakrama > aratni > puruSa > vyAma > vyAyAma > aNUka > Uvasthi > vitasti > > Any help will be appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Toke Lindegaard Knudsen > > -- From mfroelic at MAILER.FSU.EDU Sat Nov 6 22:53:05 1999 From: mfroelic at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Mark Froelich) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 99 17:53:05 -0500 Subject: avadaana translation Message-ID: <161227053335.23782.13034588018144499228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank everybody who responded to my inquiry on avadaana translation from Oct. 30th. Your suggestions are very helpful and appreciated. Mark Froelich Florida State University From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sun Nov 7 00:21:39 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 99 00:21:39 +0000 Subject: Tamil Studies Message-ID: <161227053339.23782.12542139032828310925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, all Tamilologists (if that's what we can call you) When I recently asked for advice about learning Classical Tamil, some of you were kind enough to give me useful suggestions, for which I thank you. Just one more enquiry. Does anybody know of a Tamil-Sanskrit or (better) Sanskrit-Tamil dictionary. My assumption is that if any such work exists it would be pre-modern. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From herrge at GEOCITIES.COM Sun Nov 7 04:21:49 1999 From: herrge at GEOCITIES.COM (Richard Gendron) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 99 00:21:49 -0400 Subject: Poison, Witches, bones and flesh In-Reply-To: <199903100000.QAA12713@geocities.com> Message-ID: <161227053353.23782.14542006026234653495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indologists, In March 1999, Michael Witzel wrote, in a response to Leonard Zwilling: LZ: > peacocks are said to thrive on poisonous plants > which they prefer for their food MW: * The theme is a old as the Rgveda, * see RV 1.191.14 (a late, Atharva-like hymn * full of non-Indo-Aryan loan words), * in the context of charms against poisons: *1.191.14: "the three times seven pea-hens, the 3 x 7 unmarried sisters, * these (females) have taken away your poison... " *Iam am sure there is much more, for example in Crooke's North Indian folklore. * Most interesting for you perhaps the Himalayan occurence, * in Nepalese Shaman texts: * in the context of the battle of the First Shaman with the 9 Witches * ("9 Little Sisters"). --- * Note that, as always in (N. Asian) shamanism, * '9' is preferred, other than Rgveda "7'. I have found references to the 9 Witches in Tamang and Magar shamanism, and to the seven sisters in Tharu rituals, but I would like to take a look at other examples of this (9 or 7 sisters/witches) in the context of myths/rituals of north Indian "scheduled tribes" (preferably in Uttar Pradesh) or in Nepal. I would also be grateful if anyone help me find references to bones being transmitted to the offspring by the father, whereas flesh is coming from the mother (again in Uttar Pradesh or in the Himalaya). I am particularly interested in any relationship of the idea of flesh with the idea of a flower (like what Carrin noticed for the Santal - does this appear anywhere in the Vedas?). Thanks for your help, Richard Gendron, graduate student Universit? de Sherbrooke (Quebec) From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Nov 7 09:49:13 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 99 04:49:13 -0500 Subject: Tamil Studies Message-ID: <161227053343.23782.7992259244460666107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 11/6/99 6:19:55 PM Central Standard Time, s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: > Just one more enquiry. Does anybody know of a Tamil-Sanskrit or > (better) Sanskrit-Tamil dictionary. My assumption is that if any such > work exists it would be pre-modern. The Madras University Tamil Lexicon might be of use to you. The lexicon was prepared when Tamil scholarly establishment was highly Sanskritic in its outlook (1930s) . As a result, for any Tamil word, if a Sanskrit word could be thought of as even remotely similar phonologically, they made sure they listed it at least with a question mark. Since the lexicon has English transliterations for all Tamil entries and their assumed source words, it should be convenient for you to use with the standard transliteration key. As a preliminary guide to go from Sanskrit to Tamil, one has to remember that in Tamil k stands for Sanskrit k, kh, g, and gh. Similarly for c, T, t, and p. Letters such as r, l will not occur in the word-initial positions. Their Tamil equivalents will begin with a prothetic vowel -- a, i, or u. S- > c- . -j- or -s- or -S- > -c- or -y-. There are other transformation rules also. Often, there is no one-to-one mapping. For instance, b- > v- or sometimes p-. (Others may be able to suggest references on loan phonology.) You may be familiar with many consonant cluster simplification rules to go from Sanskrit to Prakrit and you can use them to generate possible Tamil forms and see if they can be located in the Tamil lexicon. Parpola has noted in his 1983 article, "The Pre-Vedic Background of the Zrauta Rituals" in "Agni", "The most characteristic feature of the Prakrit languages in comparison with Sanskrit is the simplification of the consonant clusters through assimilation, anaptyxis, and similar processes. This seems to be mainly due to the adaptation of Indo-Aryan to the Dravidian pattern of their mother tongue by the first bilingual generations who initiated the Aryanization of Dravidian North India. Dravidian has originally no initial consonant clusters and in the middle of the word only double consonants and clusters of homorgonic nasal+voiceless stop (Zvelebil 1970, 76f.) The phenomenon is paralleled by the changes of Sanskrit loanwords in Tamil, which has preserved the proto-Dravidian phonology very faithfully (e.g. Tamil tottiram: Sanskrit stotram)." Actually Ta. tOttiram < Skt. stotra. You can find this in the Tamil lexicon entry for tOttiram. The following may also be of interest to you. Yaska's Nirukta and Nighantu with transliteration and translation into Tamil. Preface in English. by Ramanujatatacarya, Agnihotram. Regards S. Palaniappan From Joperry2 at AOL.COM Sun Nov 7 12:21:39 1999 From: Joperry2 at AOL.COM (John Oliver Perry) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 99 07:21:39 -0500 Subject: Bahamaha-Kavyalamkara Message-ID: <161227053346.23782.13384443538463609837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Index of JNU Prof. (of English) Kapil Kapoor's new book, "Literary Theory: Indian Conceptual Framework," in collaboration (Glossary) with Nalini M. Ratnam [KK's daughter] Affiliated East-West Press, 104 Nirmal Tower, 26 Barakhamba Road, New Delhi 110 001, 1998. 210 pages. ISBN 81-85938-86-5 (Price: Rs 280) {which I reviewed in the current issue of "World Literature Today," Summer 1999, 73:3, 597-599} indicates 21 pages occur with the name BhAmaha, and 17 (mostly overlapping) pages where KAvyAlamkAra. However, the volume deals with 26 or so Indian classical works on poetics from Bharata and Dandin to Appaya Diksita and Pt. Jaganatha. Prof. Kapoor gave a brief talk that referenced his book at a conference on Indian Criticism at India International Centre organized by IIC Librarian H.H. Kaul, the Sahitya Akademi, myself and JNU/IIT-Delhi Prof. Makarand Paranjape on January 18, 1999, where he gifted me his book. Not being a Sanskritist, I appreciate highly the careful and useful scholarship of his book, but do not think the "Indian Conceptual Framework" appropriate for contemporary criticism. (See my review for the dozen reasons I give there.) Surely the comments of Prof. Kapoor would be of interest, however, to someone about to do an essay on Sanskrit poetics, whether based on Bahamaha or more generally. ATB John Oliver Perry From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 7 20:47:52 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 99 12:47:52 -0800 Subject: Connection between Yama, yamI and yamunA Message-ID: <161227053348.23782.7238810487818860020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anybody please explain the relationship between Yama, yamI and yamunA? I get the impression that in Vedic literature, yama and yamunA were twins who were the children of vivasvAn. However, in Post Vedic literature, yama became the God of death and yamI became the twin of the God of death while yamunA was/became the name of the river. My questions are 1. Is this interpretation correct? If not, please correct the record 2. What is the connection between yamunA and yamI?How did the river get it's name? Looking forward to your answers, Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ThomasBurke at AOL.COM Sun Nov 7 22:34:34 1999 From: ThomasBurke at AOL.COM (Thomas C, Burke) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 99 17:34:34 -0500 Subject: Saffron in Kashmir Message-ID: <161227053350.23782.13827869522161011251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I recall having somewhere read of a tradition in Kashmir that that saffron is not native to the valley but was introduced from outside. In Indian Food, a Historical Companion (Delhi, 1994), K. T. Achaya states that saffron cultivation in Kashmir seems to have begun in about 550 C.E. I have been unable to trace sources for these statements. Could anyone please provide information or bibliographic sources about the early history of saffron in Kashmir? Thomas Burke thomasburke at aol.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Nov 8 02:05:04 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 99 02:05:04 +0000 Subject: Poison, Witches, bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053356.23782.2505027833698189700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Richard **************** I would also be grateful if anyone help me find references to bones being transmitted to the offspring by the father, whereas flesh is coming from the mother (again in Uttar Pradesh or in the Himalaya). I am particularly interested in any relationship of the idea of flesh with the idea of a flower (like what Carrin noticed for the Santal - does this appear anywhere in the Vedas?). **************** I haven't had time to check any references for you, but I think this is also the Tibetan Buddhist view (and possibly Indian Buddhist) -- it may derive from medical theories. I'll get back to you if I can find anything. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Nov 8 02:21:40 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 99 02:21:40 +0000 Subject: Tamil Studies Message-ID: <161227053358.23782.5161960556204917122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Sudalaimuthu Thanks for your informative reply. However, though your suggestions are helpful in other respects, I am not so much interested in Tamil/Sanskrit cognates or loans so much as how X in Sanskrit would have been translated into Tamil. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From GthomGt at CS.COM Mon Nov 8 14:03:44 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 99 09:03:44 -0500 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053365.23782.3435859673217881016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Srini, Thieme reconstructs the 'thrice-seven' as follows: a i u R e o ai au y r l v k c T t p z S s h The problem that Thieme tackles in this article is not so much to justify the assumption that this number refers to a series of sounds [not an ''alphabet" in the sense of a script], since the context [hymn addressed to vAcaspati, etc.] strongly suggests that the verse is concerned with the powers of speech . No, the problem is to come up with a rational explanation for the number 21 as the number of sounds in the sacred language. This number, of course, does not match the number found in Panini, nor in the prAtizAkhyas, nor in the Devanagari script. But by using AkRtis one can eliminate the ayogavAhas [anusvAra, etc., which are considered by Panini as secondary], all of the long vowels, as well as the savarNa forms of the stops: thus k represents kh, g, gh and nasal G, etc. By this process one arrives at the number 22. The number 21 is achieved by eliminating L, as is done in the kAtyAyanIya prAtizAkhya.[cited by Thieme]. >?From this brief summary of Thieme's article it may appear that Thieme is forcing the data into the framework of the magical number 21. But I think that he had good reasons to do so, as a detailed examination of his article would, I think, show. The number is certainly a magical one in the RV [cf. ref. to 21 secret names of the cow, etc.] Hope this helps, George In a message dated 11/6/99 7:04:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM writes: > George, I remember Prof.Deshpande referring to this article in a lecture at > the U > of Michigan... what are the 21 items of this old alphabet, as > reconstructed by > Thieme ? > > Thanks, > -Srini. > From alvapillai.veluppillai at TEOL.UU.SE Mon Nov 8 08:16:42 1999 From: alvapillai.veluppillai at TEOL.UU.SE (Alvappillai Veluppillai) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 99 09:16:42 +0100 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate In-Reply-To: <19991105173815.50053.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053362.23782.14829973570398293717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran writes:- " Also the long history of Southern Indian Kings, who regularly raided Lanka and devastated its Buddhist culture - not a strong indication of any favorable disposition towards Buddhism - infact the evidence seems to support rank animosity. The local cultures too show none of the Buddhist traits - vegetarianism for example". He seems to suggest that local cultures in South India do not show the Buddhist trait of vegetarianism. Vegetarianism is not a trait of Buddhism. It is not an aspect of the Lankan Buddhist culture. Very few Lankan Buddhists are vegetarians. / A. Veluppillai From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Sun Nov 7 23:44:26 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 99 10:44:26 +1100 Subject: Saffron in Kashmir Message-ID: <161227053352.23782.829034733505799285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Could anyone please provide information or bibliographic sources about the >early history of saffron in Kashmir? > Crocus sativus (the source of saffron) does not produce seeds but has to be propagated vegetatively. I read somewhere (Brian Mathew 1982 was it?) that the saffron of Kashmir is genetically identical with the saffron grown in Spain. The crocus is native in the area from Portugal to Turkey, from North Africa to Slovenia, Croatia etc. (centre of origin Greece / Macedonia?). I would suggest Mathew's book as a starting point for historical citations. Mathew, Brian The crocus : a revision of the genus crocus (Iridaceae). London : B. T. Batsford, 1982. . From jrgardn at EMORY.EDU Mon Nov 8 16:22:27 1999 From: jrgardn at EMORY.EDU (John Robert Gardner) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 99 11:22:27 -0500 Subject: Date of Rg Veda book 9 In-Reply-To: <19991105022212.55710.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053367.23782.11490934827647280599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 4 Nov 1999, Harry Spier wrote: > Dr. Gardner in his thesis "The Developing Terminology for the Vedic Self" in > chapter 3 "Relative chronology of early and middle vedic" says about book 9: > > chapter 3-d "...in the case of the 9th, however, as it is a collection of > the hymns for the Soma ritual drawn from the other books , much of the > material is quite old." > > In chapter3-i (conclusions) has RV 9 as younger than all the books except > book 10. The primary issue I was attempting to address concerned the problem wherein _composition/collection/arrangement_ of the RV 9 was surely late, but the hymns, as you quote me from Chapt. 3, are indeed quite old. As there is still much work to be done unpacking the range of compositional periods which likely figure on this book, it is likely best _not_ to put it into a strata at all until it's contents are better unpacked. I choose to address it as later simply becuase there was not an adequate, detailed case i could make to do otherwise. In particular, as you read Chapter 5 of teh dissertation, one thing which adds to my relative deference on RV 9 chronology is the corresponding comparative paucity of the terms I was studying in RV 9, thus--unlike the case with RV 3 where I was able to definitively suggest a different place in RV relative chronology in my chapter 4--it was simply not possible to do more. This does not, in any way, mean however that I am rhetorically in support of the later date, only that that is about all I could do with it for now. I hope this helps clarify, at least, the context in in which I _seem_ to suggest a chronological placement for RV 9 and why, perhaps, it is also better to defer on the matter unless, as with my study, the amount of querying being done on RV 9 is not statistically significant enough to to obviate the overall cnclusions of the research undertaken. respectfully, John Robert ATLA-CERTR Emory University From knagata at BUN.KYOTO-U.AC.JP Mon Nov 8 04:55:25 1999 From: knagata at BUN.KYOTO-U.AC.JP (Keisuke NAGATA) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 99 13:55:25 +0900 Subject: Saffron in Kashmir In-Reply-To: <0.65f9b3b0.2557587a@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227053360.23782.16681962679206231895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Thomas Burke. The statement of ``kuGkuma''(saffron) appears in RaajataraGgiNii. Please, Cf. RaajataraGgiNii 1.42. Best Regards ------------------------------------ Keisuke NAGATA (DC 2) Dept.of Indian Philosophy Graduate School of Letters Kyoto University e-mail: knagata at bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 9 01:40:37 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 99 17:40:37 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Message-ID: <161227053370.23782.5274826490790891429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge writes : >Yes, it seems as if Theravada Buddhism in Sri Lanka was fairly >isolated from northern India although people like Buddhaghosa have >borrowed a fair amount from Mahayana materials. I'd like some examples of this. For I understood that the reason Buddhaghosa made the trip to Ceylon and translated the original texts from SinhAlese to PAli was that he tried to resurrect the arhat ideal. It may be that he felt that both the HinayAnist and the MahAyAnist schools had totally departed from the original ideals and philosophy and thus his effort. I think the fundemantal difference between PAli Buddhism and Samskrutic Buddhism is that while the first deriving its inspiration from the PAli canon and Abhidhamma, refuses to speculate about Reality after the cessation of consciousness, the latter had no such reluctance and identified Reality either with anu (atom) or vijnAnam (consciousness) or shUnyam. And the more I think about it, stronger do I think it's wrong to judge the development of Indian Buddhism based on Ceylonese Buddhism. >1. It is considered "bad manners" these days to refer to Theravada >as Hinayana. Though Mahayana witers mention Hinayana, their clearest >doctrinal adversaries were the Sarvastivadins. We just do not know >enough about the origins of Mahayana but it seems that they were >originally merely a liberal wing of the basic Sangha, i.e. mahayana >with a small "m", if you like. There were many other Hinayana groups >in India at the time when Mahayana emerged who are never mentioned in >Mahayana polemics -- indeed many of the great Mahayana teachers were >monks of Hinayana sanghas. People like Asanga are interesting because >they belonged to the Mahishasaka school -- they are regarded as the >mainland counterparts to the Theravadins. Maybe the gap was smaller >between their doctrinal views and the later Mahayana. Others such as >the Sautrantika found favour (in part) with avowed Mahayanists such as >Dignaga and Dharamkirti. If TheravAda is synonymous with the PAli canon, then it's not so easy to build a bridge between it and later Samskrutic schools, even HinayAna, in terms of philosophy. Though the Samskrutic schools too derived their inspiration from the PAli canon, they did what the Buddha specifically condemned - speculate about Reality. So it would be better if we considered Buddhism in its three different categories - TheravAda, HinayAna and MahAyAna. And the gap between the last two is much more easily bridged than either from the first, because both didn't hesitate to speculate about Reality. So it's not strange that VAsubandhu the SarvAstivAdin wrote VijnAnavAda works and DignAga and his disciple Dharmakirti, though VijnAnavAdins had an inclination towards SautrAntika. >2. There are references to the Mahayana people in Pali sources -- >they are referred to as "vetulla-vada". I was looking for more than mere "reference". Anyway this might be a point against my argument itself : Maybe the PAli authors since they anyway refused to speculate about Reality, had anyway nothing to fight about and might have just ignored the Samskrutic schools and their speculations. Any reference if so, might have just been to condemn the Samskrutic schools. >3. I am sorry but I can't grasp the point you are trying to make >here. My point is that : Even if the TheravAdins ignored the Samskrutic schools, it's indeed strange that the latter, especially the MahAyAnists, would have left them alone - for they with the Bodhisattva ideal, wanted to save everybody. So that's what I find strange - that the MahAyAnists do not engage in serious dialectic against the TheravAdins. Maybe this is the way it happened : 5th - 3rd century BC - The Buddha and PAli Buddhism 2nd century BC - the MahAyAna and Samskrutic Buddhism makes their appearance 2nd century BC to 2nd century AD - Ashvaghosa, NAgArjuna and early HinayAna Samskrutic schools (SarvAstivAda) - speculation galore! PAli Buddhism on the wane 3rd-4th century AD - Rise of VaibhAshika and YogAcAra (probably in preference to the logically weaker SautrAntika and negativist ShUnyavAda). 4th century AD - Buddhaghosa dismayed by the many contradicting forms of Budddhism, makes a trip to Ceylon to get the original canon and tries to resurrect the arhat ideal. >?From now on, call me "speculation galore" too :-) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From herrge at GEOCITIES.COM Tue Nov 9 06:26:46 1999 From: herrge at GEOCITIES.COM (Richard Gendron) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 02:26:46 -0400 Subject: bones and flesh In-Reply-To: <199911082359.PAA23117@geocities.com> Message-ID: <161227053376.23782.8598296439590566117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Stephen Hodge >Hi, Richard >(...) >I haven't had time to check any references for you, but I think this >is also the Tibetan Buddhist view (and possibly Indian Buddhist) -- it >may derive from medical theories. >I'll get back to you if I can find anything. >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge Thanks for your message. I was already aware that "flesh coming from the mother and bones from the father" is found in Tibetan medical texts. I also think that Levi-Strauss mentioned this in reference to other groups in Central Asia. However, I am curious to see if it can be found in any shamanic texts or in any hindu (whatever "hindu" means) text in South Asia. I should have specified that at this point, my interest is for such an occurence in Uttar Pradesh or in the Himalaya, in a non-tibetan community. For instance, the fact that it is a view held by Santal groups in Orissa is difficult to relate to a direct tibetan influence. It could, however, imply a old (2000 yrs ago?) buddhist influence on Santal religion... (???) Another related question could be : should this idea be considered "buddhist", "hindu" or "pre-buddhist" and/or "pre-hindu" ? Thanks again for your reply! Richard Gendron, graduate student Universit? de Sherbrooke (Quebec) From jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR Tue Nov 9 05:59:19 1999 From: jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR (J.S.Pitanga) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 03:59:19 -0200 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Message-ID: <161227053373.23782.1896456648732185050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >[Nanda Chandran:] >Though the Samskrutic schools too derived their inspiration from the >PAli canon, they did what the Buddha specifically condemned - >speculate about Reality. Rather, it seems that what the Buddha condemned was to speculate about what *does not exist*, such as a self, and neither Hiinayaanists nor Mahaayaanists seem to have incurred such fault. Your very interpretation of what the Buddha condemned seems to assume the existence of some self-existent Reality, precisely what the Buddha condemned. >So it would be better if we considered Buddhism in its three different >categories - TheravAda, HinayAna and MahAyAna. What is called Theravaada falls into what is called Hiinayaana by those who call themselves Mahaayaanists, both in terms of tenets and purpose. Julio. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 9 15:13:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 07:13:29 -0800 Subject: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham"/ I Message-ID: <161227053393.23782.17480579525957892782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >"maya = illusion"? Let us consider the tamil verb pair 1) mayakku and 2) mayaGku. >?From these verbs, many nouns and words in Dravidian are born. >?From Cologne Online Tamil Lexicon: --------------------------------------------------------------- 1) mayakku-tal otl mayakku-tal mayakku-tal 01 1. to bewilder, confuse; 2. to puzzle, mystify; to make one wonder; 3. to fascinate, allure, charm; 4. to mix up; 5. to unite, join, as a wick with the oil in a can; 6. to ruin, destroy; 7. to disturb, unsettle; 8. to clear one's misunderstanding, as in sulks; 9. to make one swoon ---------------------------------------------------------------- 2) mayaGku-tal mayagku-tal 1. to be confused, bewildered; 2. to be charmed, allured; 3. to be intoxicated; 4. to be changed, as in one's mind or body; 5. to be ruined, desolated; 6. to be distressed; 7. to be disturbed, tossed about, as sea; 8. to be in doubt; 9. to be overwhelmed with anxiety; 10. to be mixed up; 11. to resemble; 12. to be crowded together; 13. to engage in a fight; 14. to lose one's senses; 15. to be in a state of disorder or confusion; 16. to become unconscious ---------------------------------------------------------- Witzel. Substrate Languages in Old Indo-Aryan, EJVS, 1999 >"" mAyA 'confusion, wonderment, awe' RV (found in all of RV, just as >mAy-in, mayA-vat, mayA-vin), = Avest. mAiiA 'awful power' :: Tam. >maya- 'mistake, misunderstand'; mayakku- 'bewilder, confuse, >intoxicate, alcohol' etc.; DEDR 4706 without comparison with Skt.; >the Skt. and Drav. meanings do not agree; also, because attested that >early in the RV and Iran., Drav. origin (only Middle-RV Drav. >influence!) is unlikely -- unless it would have taken place in Iran >(Southworth 1979: 196f.: "high degree of contact ... at the earliest >period for which we have records and possibly before"); "" Please note that the RV 'mAyA' (confusion, wonderment, awe) and the Tamil verb "mayakku/mayaGku" have the same meaning (refer OTL entry) and, the Skt. and Drav. meanings do agree quite well. It is likely that drav. verbal root, "mayakku" and skt. mAyA are related. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 9 16:46:06 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 08:46:06 -0800 Subject: Q: mAyA Message-ID: <161227053398.23782.15750920860306121909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Thompson, Two queries on the word, mAyA: 1) From 10-jun-98 post, RV mentions "all the ungodly magical practices" of those hostile to the vedic aryans (vi'zvA a'devIH ... mAyA'H) and, a'deva seems to refer to humans. Is it true that mAyA is usually associated with adevas in the RV? 2) Given the fact that "mAiiA" is attested only once in the entire Avestan gathas, and that the association between Old Persian and RV is pervasive and deep, could the Iranians have borrowed the term "mAiiA" from Indo-Aryans? Does the numerical strength of evidence for mAyA, mayakku, mAyai, etc., being more than 99% in both Indo-Aryan and Dravidian show India to be the birthplace of the culturally loaded concept, mAyA? (Or else, mAyA should be IIr heritage???) Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM Tue Nov 9 09:28:52 1999 From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 09:28:52 +0000 Subject: When did the gods become literate? In-Reply-To: <19991109014037.19408.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053380.23782.9988623402489100519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Various comments: >>Yes, it seems as if Theravada Buddhism in Sri Lanka was fairly >>isolated from northern India although people like Buddhaghosa have >>borrowed a fair amount from Mahayana materials. > >And the more I think about it, stronger do I think it's wrong to judge >the development of Indian Buddhism based on Ceylonese Buddhism. It is completely anachronistic to refer to India and Ceylon/Sri Lanka as separate entities at this time. Ceylon was as much, and as little, different from, say, the Ganges valley as the Tamil country or Andhra. >Maybe this is the way it happened : > >5th - 3rd century BC - The Buddha and PAli Buddhism > >2nd century BC - the MahAyAna and Samskrutic Buddhism makes their appearance There is no secure evidence for the existence of Mahaayaana before the second century A.D. The current finds of probably Dharmaguptaka texts in Gaandhaarii from a source in or near Afghanistan include no Mahaayaana material. Since these date from the first century A.D., this would suggest that Mahaayaana either did not exist at this date or was confined to a very small minority. Similarly it is unclear when Sanskrit came into use, but it presumably depends on when the Sarvaastivaadins began to write in Sanskrit. As far as I know, there is no conclusive evidence that that happened before the second century A.D. OXFORD, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk or selwyn at dtn.ntl.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 9 18:27:27 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 10:27:27 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Message-ID: <161227053403.23782.190694233355095113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Julio writes : >Rather, it seems that what the Buddha condemned was to speculate >about what *does not exist*, such as a self, and neither Hiinayaanists nor >Mahaayaanists seem to have incurred such fault. Then why do you think he replies in the negative to the brAhmana samnyAsin Vacchagotha, when the latter questions him about the eternality or non-eternality of the world? Is that anything in relation to the self? And why too does he say that the TaghAgatha is free from all views because none of the views is conducive to withdrawing from the world, to the understanding the of four noble truths, meditation and nirvAna? The Buddha condemned "all" views and not merely the view of the Self. And please show me one single instance from the historical PAli canon - just one - where he positvely says that there's "NO" self - not where he says the skandhas are not the Self, the mind is not the Self etc by which only the non-identity of the thing referred to, with the Self is negated, but not the Self itself - but where without doubt he absolutely denies the Self. This misinterpretation of the Buddha's anatta is a misinterpretation of the Middle Way itself and a very usual one in places where only Buddhism prevails (Tibet, Lanka etc). For without knowledge of BrAhmanic philosophy, Bauddha philosophy itself cannot be understood in its proper perspective. For both grew together and without knowledge of one, knowledge of the other is like knowing only one side of the coin and is on shaky ground. To know why a permenant Self - ofcourse it may not be right to call it Self - is needed to explain empirical experience and knowledge, please read ShankarAchArya's Brahma SUtra BhAshyam. >Your very interpretation of what the Buddha condemned seems to >assume the existence of some self-existent Reality, precisely what >the Buddha condemned. In the chapter on "Examination of nirvAna" in the MUlamAdhyamaka KArikA, NAgArjuna says if one truly understood what existance and non-existance means, then one would know why nirvAna is neither. Please understand this well, before making your conclusions about the Buddha's or NAgArjuna's view of Reality. >So it would be better if we considered Buddhism in its three different >categories - TheravAda, HinayAna and MahAyAna. >>What is called Theravaada falls into what is called Hiinayaana by >>those who call themselves Mahaayaanists, both in terms of tenets >>and purpose. I just made that distinction so that we could distinguish between the PAli schools and the Samskrutic schools. And if I remember right, in MahAyAna polemics, the MahAyAnists themselves differentiate the Bauddhas into three classes - let me confirm this. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pad at FTO.DE Tue Nov 9 09:57:16 1999 From: pad at FTO.DE (Pascale Didier) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 10:57:16 +0100 Subject: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham"/ I Message-ID: <161227053383.23782.2257345689339850874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Subscribers, i am looking for the etymology of the sanskrit (or pali) word "aham"= I. further i would have a question to the instrumental Form of "aham": maya. Does this instrumental Form from aham "maya" have any etymology relation to the substantiv "maya = illusion"? Thanks for your answer, sincerely, Pascale Didier From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 9 11:52:23 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 12:52:23 +0100 Subject: SV: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham"/ I Message-ID: <161227053386.23782.6446035164884097951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pascale Didier [SMTP:pad at FTO.DE] skrev 09. november 1999 10:57: > > i am looking for the etymology of the sanskrit (or pali) word > "aham"= I. aham is etymologically related to Latin ego and Greek egoon. The Skt. form goes back to an earlier form *egHom, where the H represents a laryngeal. > > further i would have a question to the instrumental Form of "aham": > maya. > > Does this instrumental Form from aham "maya" have any > etymology relation to the substantiv "maya = illusion"? There is no connection between mayaa "by me" and maayaa "illusion". It is simply part of the paradigm of the first person pronoun. You will find more details about these paradigms in e.g. Szemerenyi's Introduction to Historical Linguistics. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Tue Nov 9 13:23:46 1999 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei Schmalz) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 14:23:46 +0100 Subject: SV: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham"/ I Message-ID: <161227053388.23782.13423519186130993482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > i am looking for the etymology of the sanskrit (or pali) word > > "aham"= I. > > aham is etymologically related to Latin ego and Greek egoon. The Skt. form goes > back to an earlier form *egHom, where the H represents a laryngeal. Dear Pascale Didier, please accept my respectful greetings. To the answer given by Lars Martin Fosse I could add the following information: Having Russian language as mothertongue I have remarked an interesting tendency, namely the Sanskrit ha-kaara is sometimes replaced by a "z" in some words which have come to Russian directly from Sanskrit. Thus, e.g. the Sanskrit "hima" (winter) is "zima" in Russian, the root lih (to lick) is "liz" in Russian, similarly, the 16th (?) century form of "I" was "azm" (I am not completely sure about the spelling). Although the today's form of Russian "I" is "ya", the form "azm" reminds me of "aham" if dealt with according to this "h to z" pattern: aham-azam-azm-?-ya. As far as Latin and Greek words for "I" are concerned, it is not at all a must that they are the "predecessors" of "aham". What's the (logical) proof for that? Your ever well-wisher, Sergei. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 9 14:36:41 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 15:36:41 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham"/ I Message-ID: <161227053390.23782.5676975269448293446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sergei Schmalz [SMTP:schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE] skrev 09. november 1999 14:24: > As far as Latin and Greek words for "I" are concerned, it is not at all > a must that they are the > "predecessors" of "aham". What's the (logical) proof for that? I am afraid that the connection between the two is standard knowledge. The problem is how we account for the differences. According to Szemerenyi, we can reconstruct the word for I as eg(H)om / egoo (where oo represents a long o). A particle -om/-on occurs in several Indo-European languages and is attached to various words. Szemerenyi, however, believes the "Bedeutungstraeger" here is -em/-om, and that eg(H) is a particle that is prefixed to the pronoun *em. (Notice that there is an -m- in the first person of the word as well). Others see the relationship between egoo/eg(H)om to the *em-/m- of the other cases as an archaic feature. In that case, we may have a kind of suppletivism. If the "Bedeutungstraeger" is eg(H)- and -om/-on a particle (compare tvam < tu +om) , then it is tempting to suggest that the original word was egHom, which in Skt. gives *azham > aham, whereas forms like egoon could be explained by metathesis: egHom > egoHm, giving Greek egoon and Latin egoo (the last nasal is lost in Latin, see e.g. *homoon > homoo.) Just a suggestion. Others may chip in and correct me. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 9 15:27:48 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 16:27:48 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham"/ I Message-ID: <161227053396.23782.8255330826663618439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse [SMTP:lmfosse at ONLINE.NO] skrev 09. november 1999 15:37: CORRECTION: I wrote: > (Notice that there is an -m- in the first person of the word as well). Please read: (Notice that there is an -m- in the first person of the VERB as well) LMF Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Nov 9 16:29:22 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 16:29:22 +0000 Subject: bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053400.23782.17964148776749429737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Richard ! You wrote: For instance, the fact that it is a view held by Santal groups in Orissa is difficult to relate to a direct tibetan influence. It could, however, imply a old (2000 yrs ago?) buddhist influence on Santal religion... (???) I am interested in the Santals and their neighbouring Munda people though the information I need seems sparse. I suspect that these people directly or indirectly had a strong influence on certain later forms of tantric Buddhism. The influence, if any, upon the Tibetans would via this route. Orissa itself was a very important Buddhist region until the 9th century -- possibly the true location of "Oddiyana". I note you are interested in witches -- I trace the origin of the term "dakini" to Munda roots connected with drumming / summoning. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Tue Nov 9 06:42:49 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 17:42:49 +1100 Subject: bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053378.23782.8709001310557225215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is something like this in Jain medical traditions too, I can't remember the details but suggest you look at: Colette CAILLAT. 1974. Sur les doctrines m?dicales du Tandulaveyaliya : 1 Enseignements d'embryologie. Indologica Taurinensia 2 (1974) 45-56. >Thanks for your message. I was already aware that "flesh coming from the >mother and bones from the father" is found in Tibetan medical texts. I >also think that Levi-Strauss mentioned this in reference to other groups in >Central Asia. > >However, I am curious to see if it can be found in any shamanic texts or in >any hindu (whatever "hindu" means) text in South Asia. I should have From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Wed Nov 10 02:24:01 1999 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 18:24:01 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053413.23782.10341020283288541849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George, thanks for the synopsis of the Prof.Thieme's article... don't have quite the same access to these things now... Hopefully, this question doesn't start off an unproductive debate... but I would like to ask the learned among this list as to what correlation can be postulated or already has been researched, between this reconstructed minimal set of sounds and the real set of 30 sounds in Tamil specified by TolkAppiyar. I think V.S.Rajam's thesis comparing the Tamil and Sanskrit traditions predated this article and don't remember her commenting on this issue. -Srini. George Thompson wrote: > Hello Srini, > > Thieme reconstructs the 'thrice-seven' as follows: > > a i u R e o ai au > y r l v > k c T t p > z S s h > > The problem that Thieme tackles in this article is not so much to justify the > assumption that this number refers to a series of sounds [not an ''alphabet" > in the sense of a script], since the context [hymn addressed to vAcaspati, > etc.] strongly suggests that the verse is concerned with the powers of speech > . No, the problem is to come up with a rational explanation for the number > 21 as the number of sounds in the sacred language. This number, of course, > does not match the number found in Panini, nor in the prAtizAkhyas, nor in > the Devanagari script. But by using AkRtis one can eliminate the ayogavAhas > [anusvAra, etc., which are considered by Panini as secondary], all of the > long vowels, as well as the savarNa forms of the stops: thus k represents kh, > g, gh and nasal G, etc. By this process one arrives at the number 22. The > number 21 is achieved by eliminating L, as is done in the kAtyAyanIya > prAtizAkhya.[cited by Thieme]. > > >From this brief summary of Thieme's article it may appear that Thieme is > forcing the data into the framework of the magical number 21. But I think > that he had good reasons to do so, as a detailed examination of his article > would, I think, show. The number is certainly a magical one in the RV [cf. > ref. to 21 secret names of the cow, etc.] > > Hope this helps, > > George > > In a message dated 11/6/99 7:04:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, > srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM writes: > > > George, I remember Prof.Deshpande referring to this article in a lecture > at > > the U > > of Michigan... what are the 21 items of this old alphabet, as > > reconstructed by > > Thieme ? > > > > Thanks, > > -Srini. > > From jnye at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Nov 10 02:13:16 1999 From: jnye at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (James Nye) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 20:13:16 -0600 Subject: Tamil Studies In-Reply-To: <199911082358.RAA01194@midway.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227053416.23782.12310950714460228270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two Tamil-Sanskrit dictionaries filmed under the Microfilming of Indian Publications Project may be of use. Entries from OCLC follow. --------- ACCESSION: 40408132 AUTHOR: Nilampikai Ammaiyar, Tiruvaranka, 1903-1945. TITLE: Vatacor Ramil akaravaricai EDITION: 2d ed. PLACE: Tirunelveli : PUBLISHER: Kitaikkumitam, Tirunelvelit Tennintiya Caivacittanta Nurpatippuk alakam, YEAR: 1952 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: viii, 308 p. ; 16 cm. SERIES: SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 40173. NOTES: Tamil-Sanskrit dictionary. Microfilm. New Delhi : Library of Congress Office ; Chicago : Available from Center for Research Libraries, 1995. On 1 microfilm reel with other items ; 35 mm. (SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 40173) SUBJECT: Tamil language -- Dictionaries -- Sanskrit. ACCESSION: 40407913 AUTHOR: Venkateca Carma, Ne. I. TITLE: Sanskrta Dravida akaradi kosah Sanskrit-Tamil dictionary = Samskruta-Tamil akarati / PLACE: [Madras] : PUBLISHER: Piramma Sayujya Pustakalaya Pracuram, YEAR: uuuu 9999 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: v. <2 > ; 24 cm. SERIES: SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 40188. NOTES: -- 2. Meyyeluttukkal munpati Ka-Ta Sanskrit Tamil dictionary. Microfilm. New Delhi : Library of Congress Office ; Chicago : Available from Center for Research Libraries, 1995- . On 1 microfilm reel with other items ; 35 mm. (SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 40188) SUBJECT: Sanskrit language -- Dictionaries -- Tamil. ALT TITLE: Sanskrit-Tamil dictionary Samskrita-Tamil akarati Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 02:21:40 -0000 From: Stephen Hodge Subject: Re: Tamil Studies Hello, Sudalaimuthu Thanks for your informative reply. However, though your suggestions are helpful in other respects, I am not so much interested in Tamil/Sanskrit cognates or loans so much as how X in Sanskrit would have been translated into Tamil. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 10 04:34:27 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 20:34:27 -0800 Subject: Q: mAyA Message-ID: <161227053422.23782.10624276323147370590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Dear Dr. Thompson, > > Two queries on the word, mAyA: > >.. > 2) Given the fact that "mAiiA" is attested only once in the entire > Avestan gathas, and that the association between Old Persian and > RV is pervasive and deep, could the Iranians have borrowed the term > "mAiiA" from Indo-Aryans? Does the numerical strength of evidence for > mAyA, mayakku, mAyai, etc., being more than 99% in both Indo-Aryan > and Dravidian show India to be the birthplace of the culturally > loaded > concept, mAyA? (Or else, mAyA should be IIr heritage???) It is worth noting a large set of cognates in the sense of blackness, confusion/delusion, and barrenness in Dravidian: DEDR 4706: maya, mayakku, mayarvu, macakkam = bewilderment, confusion; Te.maitu = deception, deceit, delusion; an enchanting powder Kur. mAyA = arrack (intoxicating liquor) made of rice DEDR 5101: mA, mai, masi, maji, majji = dark pigment, blackness. DEDR 5102: Ta. mai, Ma. mai, Ko.may, To. moy, Tu. = barrenness Is the sense of "barrennes" to do with "black magic" or "making things disappear"? Ta. mai pOttup pArttal = to discover hidden treasure, et.c, by using magic pigment. An interesting pattern is that derivation from PDr.*mA or PDr.*mai in the Dravidian family seems to frequently involve the consonants -y- or -s- or -j- after the word initial "ma(i)" or "mA". DEDR# 5101: Ta. mai = collyrium for the eye, ink, ink-paste, black pigment, black, blackness, darkness, spot as of moon, blemish, dark cloud; fault, sin, dirt. Ma. mai = blackness, antimony To. moy- = to become dark,... Ka. masi = dirt, ...the black of culinary vessels, soot, ..ink... Kod. masi = charcoal Tu. maji = coal, black powder, ink. Kor. majji = soot Te. masi Nk. mas Go. masi Kur. mais Also: DEDR 4781: mA = blackness: ---- Ta. mA = black; Ta. mAmai = blackness; Ta. mAyavan, mAyan = Vishnu; Ta.mAyOL = dark-cloured woman, woman of dark brown color; Ta. mAl = blackness,..Vishnu; Ta. mAlai = evening; Ko.mangmangn = (of the eyes) blurred from looking at an object for a long time, (of a colour) not a pure primary colour Ka. mAsu = to gorw dim; Tu. mAnka =darkness; Te. mAgupaDu, Te.mAguDu, Te.mAgilu; Pe. MAcka, mAjga; Kui. mAsu; Kur. mAxA; Malt.mAqu; Br.maun It is also interesting to note the CT epithets "mAyavan" or "mAyOn" for Krishna and associations with him of episodes involving magic and trickery. His stealing of nappin2n2ai's (lakSmi's) garments and jewels on the banks of tozun2ai (yamunA?) may be significant here. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > Chandra ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 10 01:42:24 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 20:42:24 -0500 Subject: Source of Buddhist story Message-ID: <161227053411.23782.2198226064189982041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members: A colleague has asked me to forward the following two questions. 1)What is the reference in the Buddhist canon to the story of the Buddha who converts a cobra to ahimsa and then comes back later and finds the snake all beaten and battered and tells him that he didn't tell him not to hiss. Is there a similar story in the Hindu literature? 2) What would be the most appropriate sanskrit word for "trust" or "foundation" in the sense of a non-profit organization performing a service for the public welfare? Many thanks in advance, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR Wed Nov 10 01:06:00 1999 From: jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR (J.S.Pitanga) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 23:06:00 -0200 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Message-ID: <161227053408.23782.4855438343500236531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>[Julio:] >>Rather, it seems that what the Buddha condemned was to speculate >>about what *does not exist*, such as a self, and neither Hiinayaanists nor >>Mahaayaanists seem to have incurred such fault. >[Nanda Chandran:] >Then why do you think he replies in the negative to the brAhmana >samnyAsin Vacchagotha, when the latter questions him about the >eternality or non-eternality of the world? If even persons are not a self than could be either eternal or non-eternal, let alone other phenomena such as the world. >Is that anything in relation to the self? To be a self means to be endowed with self-existence, whereby neither persons nor other phenomena such as the world are a self that could be either eternal or non-eternal, whence the irrelevance of Vacchagotha's question. >And why too does he say that the TaghAgatha is free from all views Views is short for views of a self. >because none of the views is conducive to withdrawing from the >world, Views (of a self) are what bind one to the sa.msaara. >to the understanding the of four noble truths, Views (of a self) prevent one from understanding the four noble truths. >meditation Views (of a self) prevent the appearance of the object of right meditation, the lack of a self. >and nirvAna? Views (of a self), binding one to sa.msaara, prevent the attainment of nirvaa.na. >The Buddha condemned "all" views and not merely the view of the Self. This is absurd, because he explicitly asserted the view of non-self. >And please show me one single instance from the historical PAli canon >- just one - where he positvely says that there's "NO" self To be a self means to be endowed with self-existence, and since no phenomenon such as skhandas, dhaatus, and aayatanas is so endowed, there remains nothing to be a self. Now if you assert a phenomenon that is not included in the skhandas, dhaatus, and aayatanas, then it is your own responsibility to show its existence, so that it could be verified whether or not it is a self, or is endowed with self-existence. >- not where he says the skandhas are not the Self, the mind is not the >Self etc If the Buddha really said it, he would be assuming the existence, and thus propounding the view of a "Self", which contradicts your above assertion that "[t]he Buddha condemned "all" views and not merely the view of the Self." >by which only the non-identity of the thing referred to, with the Self is >negated, but not the Self itself - but where without doubt he absolutely >denies the Self. Again, since you have just asserted that "[t]he Buddha condemned "all" views and not merely the view of the Self," you must recognize that he condemned the view of a "Self", lest you incur self-contradiction. >This misinterpretation of the Buddha's anatta is a misinterpretation >of the Middle Way itself and a very usual one in places where only >Buddhism prevails (Tibet, Lanka etc). However, your understanding of Buddha's anatta and Middle Way is simply self-contradictory, as just shown, whereas you could not find fault in my offered interpretation, be it faithful or not to whatever may be found in Tibet, Lanka etc. >For without knowledge of BrAhmanic philosophy, Bauddha philosophy >itself cannot be understood in its proper perspective. Buddha's teachings counter the [mis]conception of a self, which is both innate and held by non-Buddhist systems in general, not just by Braahmanic philosophy. >For both grew together and without knowledge of one, knowledge >of the other is like knowing only one side of the coin and is on shaky >ground. Still, your understanding of Buddha's teachings has been shown to be self-contradictory, no matter how much you may suppose to know Braahmanic philosophy, whereas my own understanding remains undamaged, no matter how much you may suppose me to ignore Braahmanic philosophy. >To know why a permenant Self - ofcourse it may not be right to call it >Self - is needed to explain empirical experience and knowledge, please >read ShankarAchArya's Brahma SUtra BhAshyam. Actually I read this book some years ago, but could not find anything much convincing in it; however, if you did, please show me, I would be curious. >>[Julio:] >>Your very interpretation of what the Buddha condemned seems to >>assume the existence of some self-existent Reality, precisely what >>the Buddha condemned. >[Nanda Chandran:] >In the chapter on "Examination of nirvAna" in the MUlamAdhyamaka >KArikA, NAgArjuna says if one truly understood what existance and >non-existance means, then one would know why nirvAna is neither. Existence and non-existence are simply the two extremes avoided by the Buddha. Persons and other phenomena are neither a self nor utterly non-existent. Nirvaa.na is just the same. >Please understand this well, before making your conclusions about >the Buddha's or NAgArjuna's view of Reality. Buddha's and Naagaarjuna's view of Reality (now you agree that the Buddha has a view, I see) is just as above, and nothing else. >>>[Nanda Chandran:] >>>So it would be better if we considered Buddhism in its three >>>different categories - TheravAda, HinayAna and MahAyAna. >>[Julio:] >>What is called Theravaada falls into what is called Hiinayaana by >>those who call themselves Mahaayaanists, both in terms of tenets >>and purpose. >[Nanda Chandran:] >I just made that distinction so that we could distinguish between >the PAli schools and the Samskrutic schools. Still, there would be no reason to consider Theravaada apart from Hiinayaana in general, from a Mahaayaana point of view, both in terms of tenets and purposes. >And if I remember right, in MahAyAna polemics, the MahAyAnists >themselves differentiate the Bauddhas into three classes - let me >confirm this. Yes, they are S'raavakas, Pratyekabuddhas and Bodhisattvas, the first two included in Hiinayaana and the third in Mahaayaana. Julio. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Nov 10 04:26:42 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 23:26:42 -0500 Subject: Tamil Studies Message-ID: <161227053419.23782.6505876238900401472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Stephen, In a message dated 99-11-07 21:21:02 EST, you write: > I am not so much interested in > Tamil/Sanskrit cognates or loans so much as how X in Sanskrit would > have been translated into Tamil. > I mentioned the loan phonology not from the point of etymologizing. In the absence of any easily available Sanskrit-Tamil Dictionary, I was pointing out a work-around to help you use the Tamil lexicon as a Sanskrit-Tamil dictionary, albeit in a limited way. For instance, if you wanted a Tamil equivalent of stotra, you can look at the Tamil entry tOttiram, and you will find the entry marked as < stotra and the Tamil synonym pukazcci. If the Sanskrit words you are interested deal with religion, chances are you will find the Tamil equivalents of many of them this way. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 10 15:09:01 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 07:09:01 -0800 Subject: oDDiyAna Message-ID: <161227053435.23782.4006942943743473941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Hodge wrote: >Orissa itself was a very important Buddhist region until the >9th cenrury -- possibly the true location of "Oddiyana". oDDiyAna: A new interpretation, p. 491-514, L. Sternbach felicitation volume, 1979. The author, Lokesh Chandra is the well known scholar of Buddhism. p. 491 " oDDiyAna played a pivotol role in the development, redaction and dissemination of the Tantras. It was the center whence the Tantras originated. According to Bu-ston it was at oDDiyAna that VajrapaNi collected "endless revelations of VajrayAna" and gave them to IndrabhUti. GuhyasamAja, the culmination of Tantric thought, was also revealed to IndhrabhUti in ODDiyAna. [...] The GuhyasamAja was commented upon by CandrakIrti who was a follower of the Tantric Nagarjuna who was born at Kanci and whom the texts call Kancannara (sic, Tucci 1949: 1.214). The explicit reference to Kanci holds the key to the identification of ODDiyAna. It is significant that IndrabhUti was an incarnation of VajrapANi, who was the presiding deity of MaGgakoSTha situated in ODDiyAna, or modern EkAmrezvara at Kanci. It was from oDDiyAna that Padmasambhava went to Tibet and firmly laid the foundation of VajrayAna in the Land of Snows. Hence the present multidimensional approach to a fresh consideration of the geographic location of oDDiyAna, the heart land of VajrayAna." p. 492 " 1.3 When ODDiyAna was identified with UdyAna, South India had not come to oocupy a place of relevance in the evolution of Buddhism, and as such how could it strike any investigator that ODDiyAna could have a South Indian derivation? It was beyond speculation that it could be a Tamil word. As it will be clear in sequence, oDDiyAna in Tamil means 'girdle' like its Sanskrit counterpart kAJci. In fact, ODDiyAna is KAnci. Kanci was one of the seven great cultural metropolis of India and the glorious capital of the Pallavas, who played a major role in the diffusion of VajrayAna to lands beyond the seas. The South Indian places of Sriparvata, DhAnyakaTaka, Potalaka and ODDiyAna were some of the foremost creative centers of MantrayAna, especially, of systems centring around Vairocana namely the (i) Avatamsaka sUtras (ii) caryA tantras and (iii) yoga tantras - in all the three the Cosmic Buddha was Vairocana with varying iconographic attributes. It is not surprising that the land par excellence of VajrayAna in the Tibetan tradition, should be ODDiyAna = Kanci." p. 495 " 2.5 Burrow and Emeneau give the following morphological variations of the lexeme in different South Indian languages: "810 Ta. oTTiyANam gold or silver girdle or belt worn by women. Ma. uTaJJAN gold chain round the loins. Ka. oDyANa, oDDyANa,oDDana, oDDavAna, oDDivANa, oDvANa belt of gold or silver chiefly worn by women. Tu. oDyaNe, oDyANa belt or girdle made of gold and generally worn by a devil-dancer. Te. oDDANamu belt of gold or silver worn by women. 2.6 All the morphological variations noted above from Indian and Tibetan sources, can be traced back to South Indian languages, thus proving that oDDiyAna is the Tamil equivalent of KAnci, both meaning a 'girdle'. [...] 3.1 The presence of DraviDa expressions in the dhAraNIs is explicitly pointed out by several Buddhist texts, [5] .... " [5] F. Bernhard, 1967, ZDMG, 117, p. 148-168 p. 511 " 7. CONCLUSION The evidence of different Buddhist traditions points to the origin of PAramitAyAna and MantrayAna in the South and its spread thence to other regions of India. The linguistic evidence of the word ODDiyAna itself, the presence of South Indian vocables in dhAraNIs, the unanimous traditions about the origination of tantras in various places of Southern India, and the fact that Kanci was a cradle of Buddhism as well as a centre for the dissemination of VajrayAna to East Asia: all converge to the conclusion that ODDiyAna is Kanci." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pad at FTO.DE Wed Nov 10 07:13:51 1999 From: pad at FTO.DE (Pascale Didier) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 08:13:51 +0100 Subject: SV: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham"/ I In-Reply-To: <01BF2AB1.623239E0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227053424.23782.4349262816906137384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all of you for your helpfull and very various responses, and for the bibliography and the links. it is very interesting for me to see that many different hypothesis can be followed and the comparaison with dravidian languages is very interesting. Dr Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > aham is etymologically related to Latin ego and Greek egoon. The Skt. > form goes back to an earlier form *egHom, where the H represents a > laryngeal. is it possible to date that? Would it mean that there was no word for "I" until this word was overtaken from Greek? (i thought , the greek word comes from sanskrit) Once again, thank for the help, Best regards Pascale Didier PS: please excuse my bad english I am not a "professional " linguist, just very interested in historical linguistic, I am french and leaving in Germany and i am looking for the signification (etymology) from the word "I" in different languages- so many as possible.... From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 10 16:14:30 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 08:14:30 -0800 Subject: oDDiyAna Message-ID: <161227053448.23782.14244704672942806503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Having come from Orissa and read a wholesome >literature on tantrism and buddhism in Orissa, >this new interpretation baffles me. >It seems the new etymologists >tend to be very "creative" in their thoughts >and interpretation. Over all, many >of the evidences seem circular and >not to the point. People need to dig >more and find more circumstantial >evidence before drawing a conclusion. >Others may comment. Dr. Lokesh Chandra is an eminent historian of Buddhism. His article is fairly old, written in 1979. To my knowledge, Dr. L. Chandra is not an etymologist. and he is editor of seminal Buddhist texts from China, Tibet, .... He is based in Delhi and does not read Tamil. Indologists are welcome to read his article in full and comment on them. Regards, N. Ganesan, PhD Aside: 1500 yrs. old Tantric and Buddhist works exist in Tamil, though not well known to Indological scholarship. Not yet, at least. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 10 17:33:36 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 09:33:36 -0800 Subject: JOI reference Message-ID: <161227053452.23782.12995533066530073743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In 60s or 70s, R. Nagaswamy wrote an article in the journal of the oriental institute, baroda giving his arguments why Sankara referred to in the cambodian inscription is not the advaitin. I need the exact citation please. Thanks. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 10 17:54:11 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 09:54:11 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Message-ID: <161227053455.23782.17327072876493183766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance Cousins writes : >It is completely anachronistic to refer to India and Ceylon/Sri Lanka as >separate entities at this time. Ceylon was as much, and as little, >different from, say, the Ganges valley as the Tamil country or >Andhra. In the first place Buddhism reached Lanka only after three hundred years after the death of the SAkhyamuni. Nor did it get it naturally, like the way the religion spread to other parts of India - Ashoka specifically sent his son to spread Buddhism in Lanka. And don't you think it is strange that Ashoka would send his son to Lanka for this specific purpose? Why did he not do the same with other parts of India which were not under his control? And his sending his son to Lanka was part of his effort to send missionaries to other countries - Greece, China, Persia - to spread the faith, which may imply that Ashoka considered Lanka as a foreign land like the others. Though Lanka is not very far off from India, in those days when marine capabilities were not so well developed, for all practical reasons it might indeed have been as foreign as Greece. (Though I wouldn't be too sure about this, for Tamils have a history of interaction with Lanka). But I doubt if it was like hopping on to a ferry to cross the river - so interaction between Lanka and India was not so easy or natural, like it would have been if connected by land. And it is my opinion that foreign lands never grasped Buddhism in its element - apart from the preservation of the scriptures, literature etc (which in truth doesn't amount to much), I know of none of the Buddhist lands (except Bhutan perhaps?), which took it seriously enough that its population turned vegetarian. For if you cannot even give up eating meat, how are you going to develop compassion and even more important how are you going to renounce your Self - anatta - which is so vital a part of Buddhism? Since Lankan bauddhas have not renounced meat, I cannot accept that they are true to the original tradition. While look at Ashoka in India who went great lengths to propagate vegetarianism thoughout his empire - that's the mark of a true bauddha. So we should be cautious when trying to read the development of Indian Buddhism based on Ceylon or Tibet. THIS IS REGARDING THE CLASSIFICATION OF BAUDDHAS : MahAyAna polemics does refer to three kinds of Bauddhas, which might map to TheravAda, Samskrutic HinayAna and MahAyAna : In the Saddharmapundarika, while trying to maintain the supremacy of MahAyAna over the other vehicles, bauddhas is split up into three as : 1. shravakas (TheravAdins), 2. Pratyeka bauddhas (SarvAstivAdins) and 3. Bodhisattvas (MahAyAnists). I request the specialists to confirm this. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Wed Nov 10 09:08:52 1999 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 10:08:52 +0100 Subject: Fw: Kalidas, a contemporary of Shibi Janpad Message-ID: <161227053427.23782.468397950581182431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> FYI: a new finding relevant to the date of Kalidas Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://www.expressindia.com/news/31310599.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Nov 10 15:29:10 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 10:29:10 -0500 Subject: Source of Buddhist story Message-ID: <161227053438.23782.16369075763151002373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SaMsthAna is pretty common in modern Sanskrit for "foundation;" many institutions publishing in Sanskrit include it in their name on the Sanskrit title pages. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From kekai at JPS.NET Wed Nov 10 18:38:04 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 10:38:04 -0800 Subject: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham"/ I Message-ID: <161227053405.23782.4067395801943069265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See my website at: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/aust2.htm for a suggested etymology of aham. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala Pascale Didier wrote: > > Dear Subscribers, > > i am looking for the etymology of the sanskrit (or pali) word > "aham"= I. > > further i would have a question to the instrumental Form of "aham": > maya. > > Does this instrumental Form from aham "maya" have any > etymology relation to the substantiv "maya = illusion"? > > Thanks for your answer, > > sincerely, > > Pascale Didier -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Nov 10 09:52:11 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 10:52:11 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham"/ I Message-ID: <161227053430.23782.6346806198675378752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pascale Didier [SMTP:pad at FTO.DE] skrev 10. november 1999 08:14: > is it possible to date that? Would it mean that there was no word > for "I" until this word was overtaken from Greek? (i thought , the > greek word comes from sanskrit) Greek and Sanskrit have a common origin. This origin may be about 4500 BC, although we cannot date it exactly. I would suggest that you read an introduction to comparative linguistics. There are several available, also in French. You may also want to have a look at Bernard Sergent's book "Les Indo-Europeens", where you get a bird's eye view of the problems. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Nov 10 15:57:58 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 10:57:58 -0500 Subject: oDDiyAna In-Reply-To: <19991110150901.76109.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053441.23782.8436027200230391483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Having come from Orissa and read a wholesome literature on tantrism and buddhism in Orissa, this new interpretation baffles me. It seems the new etymologists tend to be very "creative" in their thoughts and interpretation. Over all, many of the evidences seem circular and not to the point. People need to dig more and find more circumstantial evidence before drawing a conclusion. Others may comment. Bijoy Misra On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > S. Hodge wrote: > >Orissa itself was a very important Buddhist region until the > >9th cenrury -- possibly the true location of "Oddiyana". > > oDDiyAna: A new interpretation, p. 491-514, > L. Sternbach felicitation volume, 1979. > The author, Lokesh Chandra is the well known scholar of Buddhism. > > p. 491 > " oDDiyAna played a pivotol role in the development, redaction and > dissemination of the Tantras. It was the center whence the Tantras > originated. According to Bu-ston it was at oDDiyAna that VajrapaNi > collected "endless revelations of VajrayAna" and gave them to > IndrabhUti. GuhyasamAja, the culmination of Tantric thought, > was also revealed to IndhrabhUti in ODDiyAna. [...] The GuhyasamAja > was commented upon by CandrakIrti who was a follower of the Tantric > Nagarjuna who was born at Kanci and whom the texts call Kancannara > (sic, Tucci 1949: 1.214). The explicit reference to Kanci holds > the key to the identification of ODDiyAna. It is significant that > IndrabhUti was an incarnation of VajrapANi, who was the presiding > deity of MaGgakoSTha situated in ODDiyAna, or modern > EkAmrezvara at Kanci. > > It was from oDDiyAna that Padmasambhava went to Tibet and firmly > laid the foundation of VajrayAna in the Land of Snows. > > Hence the present multidimensional approach to a fresh consideration > of the geographic location of oDDiyAna, the heart land of > VajrayAna." > > > p. 492 > " 1.3 When ODDiyAna was identified with UdyAna, South India had > not come to oocupy a place of relevance in the evolution of Buddhism, > and as such how could it strike any investigator that ODDiyAna > could have a South Indian derivation? It was beyond speculation that > it could be a Tamil word. As it will be clear in sequence, oDDiyAna > in Tamil means 'girdle' like its Sanskrit counterpart kAJci. > In fact, ODDiyAna is KAnci. Kanci was one of the seven great cultural > metropolis of India and the glorious capital of the Pallavas, who > played a major role in the diffusion of VajrayAna to lands beyond > the seas. The South Indian places of Sriparvata, DhAnyakaTaka, > Potalaka and ODDiyAna were some of the foremost creative centers > of MantrayAna, especially, of systems centring around Vairocana namely > the (i) Avatamsaka sUtras (ii) caryA tantras and (iii) yoga tantras > - in all the three the Cosmic Buddha was Vairocana with varying > iconographic attributes. It is not surprising that the land par > excellence of VajrayAna in the Tibetan tradition, should be > ODDiyAna = Kanci." > > p. 495 > " 2.5 Burrow and Emeneau give the following morphological variations > of the lexeme in different South Indian languages: "810 Ta. > oTTiyANam gold or silver girdle or belt worn by women. Ma. uTaJJAN > gold chain round the loins. Ka. oDyANa, oDDyANa,oDDana, oDDavAna, > oDDivANa, oDvANa belt of gold or silver chiefly worn by women. > Tu. oDyaNe, oDyANa belt or girdle made of gold and generally worn > by a devil-dancer. Te. oDDANamu belt of gold or silver worn by women. > > 2.6 All the morphological variations noted above from Indian > and Tibetan sources, can be traced back to South Indian languages, > thus proving that oDDiyAna is the Tamil equivalent of KAnci, both > meaning a 'girdle'. > > [...] > > 3.1 The presence of DraviDa expressions in the dhAraNIs is explicitly > pointed out by several Buddhist texts, [5] .... " > > [5] F. Bernhard, 1967, ZDMG, 117, p. 148-168 > > p. 511 > " 7. CONCLUSION > The evidence of different Buddhist traditions points to the origin > of PAramitAyAna and MantrayAna in the South and its spread thence to > other regions of India. The linguistic evidence of the word > ODDiyAna itself, the presence of South Indian vocables in dhAraNIs, > the unanimous traditions about the origination of tantras in various > places of Southern India, and the fact that Kanci was a cradle of > Buddhism as well as a centre for the dissemination of VajrayAna > to East Asia: all converge to the conclusion that ODDiyAna is > Kanci." > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU Wed Nov 10 16:07:53 1999 From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 11:07:53 -0500 Subject: Source of Buddhist story Message-ID: <161227053445.23782.9293989384356821846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my experience, the common term used to denote a "Foundation" is "pratiShThAna". The word "SaMsthAna" was used for the various "kingdoms" under the British Domain - somewhat like a State or a Province. It is also used to denote an institution in Hindi. Allen W Thrasher wrote: > SaMsthAna is pretty common in modern Sanskrit for "foundation;" many > institutions publishing in Sanskrit include it in their name on the > Sanskrit title pages. > > Allen Thrasher > > -- |Avinash Sathaye Phone:(606)277-0130(Home), (606)257-8832(Office) | Web page: www.ms.uky.edu/~sohum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK Wed Nov 10 14:44:02 1999 From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 14:44:02 +0000 Subject: Special numbers Message-ID: <161227053432.23782.12203576579599930590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone recognise the number 404 as a "special" number in an Indian context? If so, where does it appear and what is special about it? John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From vaithees at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Wed Nov 10 19:45:35 1999 From: vaithees at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Ravindiran Vaitheespara) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 14:45:35 -0500 Subject: When did the gods become literate? In-Reply-To: <19991110175411.42625.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053461.23782.17384433042929047331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----------------------------- On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, nanda chandran wrote: > Lance Cousins writes : > > >It is completely anachronistic to refer to India and Ceylon/Sri Lanka as > >separate entities at this time. Ceylon was as much, and as little, > >different from, say, the Ganges valley as the Tamil country or >Andhra. > > In the first place Buddhism reached Lanka only after three hundred years > after the death of the SAkhyamuni. Nor did it get it naturally, like the way > the religion spread to other parts of India - Ashoka specifically sent his > son to spread Buddhism in Lanka. > > And don't you think it is strange that Ashoka would send his son to Lanka > for this specific purpose? Why did he not do the same with other parts of > India which were not under his control? And his sending his son to Lanka was > part of his effort to send missionaries to other countries - Greece, China, > Persia - to spread the faith, which may imply that Ashoka considered Lanka > as a foreign land like the others. > > Though Lanka is not very far off from India, in those days when marine > capabilities were not so well developed, for all practical reasons it might > indeed have been as foreign as Greece. (Though I wouldn't be too sure about > this, for Tamils have a history of interaction with Lanka). But I doubt if > it was like hopping on to a ferry to cross the river - so interaction > between Lanka and India was not so easy or natural, like it would have been > if connected by land. > > And it is my opinion that foreign lands never grasped Buddhism in its > element - apart from the preservation of the scriptures, literature etc > (which in truth doesn't amount to much), I know of none of the Buddhist > lands (except Bhutan perhaps?), which took it seriously enough that its > population turned vegetarian. For if you cannot even give up eating meat, > how are you going to develop compassion and even more important how are you > going to renounce your Self - anatta - which is so vital a part of Buddhism? > Since Lankan bauddhas have not renounced meat, I cannot accept that they are > true to the original tradition. While look at Ashoka in India who went great > lengths to propagate vegetarianism thoughout his empire - that's the mark of > a true bauddha. > > So we should be cautious when trying to read the development of Indian > Buddhism based on Ceylon or Tibet. > > THIS IS REGARDING THE CLASSIFICATION OF BAUDDHAS : > > MahAyAna polemics does refer to three kinds of Bauddhas, which might map to > TheravAda, Samskrutic HinayAna and MahAyAna : In the Saddharmapundarika, > while trying to maintain the supremacy of MahAyAna over the other vehicles, > bauddhas is split up into three as : 1. shravakas (TheravAdins), 2. Pratyeka > bauddhas (SarvAstivAdins) and 3. Bodhisattvas (MahAyAnists). I request the > specialists to confirm this. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com I always tell myslef that I wouldn't be provoked to write a response to some of these tall pronouncements but here i go again. although i will be extremely brief. What is this about true buddhism? where did you learn your history? Or is this an obsession with purity. How many vegetarians are there who would not blink an eyelid at killing people if not animals. In your eyes it seems that lanka properly belongs to the land of the mlechhas, beyond the pale of indic civilization. why dont you come out and just say that instead of all this compassion bit and buddhism has to be understood only properly in the indian element. Then why was it kicked out of india...> From alstrup at YAHOO.COM Thu Nov 11 02:47:08 1999 From: alstrup at YAHOO.COM (Ole Alstrup) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 18:47:08 -0800 Subject: Wilson and the Padma Purana? Message-ID: <161227053479.23782.7177031292754488730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Did the 19th century scholar H.H. Wilson translate the Padma Purana? How many different sanskrit versions exists of this purana and how many english translations? I have been told that the issue of versions of the Padma Purana is complicated by (1) the factor of the existence of isolated extant texts which claim to be supplements to the Purana and by (2) the factor of verses that commentators over the centuries have quoted as being from the Purana that do not appear in any known extant text purporting to be part of the Purana. Also I am interested to find out if there is a "Upapurana" ie. subsidiary Purana, which bears the name of Padma Purana? Any information on this would be greatly appreciated, Thank you very much, Ole Alstrup __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 11 00:27:58 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 19:27:58 -0500 Subject: Traditional Panchangam calculations Message-ID: <161227053472.23782.4932805148988556373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Does anyone know if their exists a study (or thesis) about how the traditional makers of Panchangams do their calculations in practice. What I'm really looking for is a field study from someone who actually went around and compared the algorithms from different practitioners. Yours, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Nov 10 22:17:15 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 22:17:15 +0000 Subject: oDDiyAna Message-ID: <161227053464.23782.1691908896018453390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reply to N. Ganesan: Lokesh Candra's theory about O.d.diyaana are appealing as the point in the right direction but there are facts that he fails to take into considerations. I have been researching the O.d.diyaana problem on and off for the past ten years, using Chinese, Tibetan and Sanskrit materials. In the course of this research I have compiled a large amount of data which I intend eventually to publish. I append a few of these below: 1. Though there was an Udyaana in the Swat Valley area, detailed Chinese records for the 7th and 8th centuries concerning this region fail to convince me that this area had any importance in the development of the Buddhist Tantras. 2. The location of O.d.diyana is vital for an understanding of the development of later Buddhist Tantras. In particular, the role of the three Indrabhuti Kings, ho are said to have reigned there, cannot be ignored. 3. There is an overlap in accounts of O.d.diyaana and the place known in Tibetan as "Sa-hor" which lead one to think that they are actually the same place. Various theories have been advanced for the meaning and location of Sa-hor. I believe it is derived from the name by which Munda people in Orissa/ Bihar/ Bengal refer to themselves. 4. The land of O.d.diyaana is frequently spoken of as the land of the .daki.nikii -- whom may originally be considered as shamanesses or witches. What Lokesh Chandra surprisingly does not mention are the Dravidian terms for a "witch". o.t.tiyam T / o.d.de Tel / o.d.di K / o.diyam M = O.dra o.t.tiyam: a kind of witchcraft; a treatise thereon o.t.tiyan: a native of O.dra; a sorcerer, witch O.dra is, of course, the old name for a part of Orissa. One could perhaps say that O.d.diyaana is a punning name: O.dra = the land of the witches. 5. Detailed lists of the Shakta pii.thas include O.d.diyaana among other places in Orissa. Sircar thinks that such mention is due to scribal error since he is adamant that O.d.diyaana was in the Swat Valley and thus refuses to consider that O.dra and O.d.diyaana are the same place. 6. Careful analysis of the Biographies of the 84 Siddhas also points to Orissa as the location of O.d.diyaana. I obviously have much more data but the above is enough for a start. > Aside: 1500 yrs. old Tantric and Buddhist works exist in Tamil, > though not well known to Indological scholarship. Not yet, at least. I have been trying to track down concrete details about this -- it in part lies behind my reecent requests for info about Classical Tamil. I am told on good authority that there is definitely Buddhist Tantric material in Tamil at Mysore University library quietly rotting away. If true, it may be possible to interest, say, Japanese fund-holders to help in the preservation and/or micro-filming of this material. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Nov 10 22:28:48 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 22:28:48 +0000 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Message-ID: <161227053466.23782.3692754820730545412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Nanda ! A couple of things I meant to point out to you regarding your ideas about Sanskrit and Mahayana. 1. Some of the early texts now considered as Mahayana were not actually composed as "Mahayana" texts but as "mahayana", if you understand the distinction I am alluding to. They were composed by "liberal" members of Hinayana schools. 2. Probably most of the early Mahayana sutras were not written in Sanskrit but in some Prakrit but later converted into Sanskrit or BHS. Such texts would include the Lotus Sutra, the A.s.tasahasrika, the Sukhavatii Suutra etc. This is clear from the many transliterations to be found in early translations of Mahayana texts done in China during the late 2nd / early 3rd centuries by Lokak.sema and others. > MahAyAna polemics does refer to three kinds of Bauddhas, which might map to > TheravAda, Samskrutic HinayAna and MahAyAna : In the Saddharmapundarika, > while trying to maintain the supremacy of MahAyAna over the other vehicles, > bauddhas is split up into three as : 1. shravakas (TheravAdins), 2. Pratyeka > bauddhas (SarvAstivAdins) and 3. Bodhisattvas (MahAyAnists). I request the > specialists to confirm this. What is the basis for your glosses on the Shraavaka / Pratyekabuddha / Bodhisattva groups ? Of course, Bodhisattvas = Mahayana is acceptable, but the other two glosses are unusual -- I have never encountered them in any Buddhist texts. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Nov 10 23:32:43 1999 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 23:32:43 +0000 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate? Message-ID: <161227053458.23782.8672178674159491430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert P. Goldman wrote: > > There seems to be little in the way of unambiguous reference to writing in > the Valmiki Ramayana other than the references to Rama's signet ring, > famously given by him to Hanuman as a token of recognition for Sita. > > At 4. 43 11 the ring is said to be svanAmANKopaZobhitam and again at 5.34. > 2 to be rAmanAmANkitam. ( refs. are to the crit. ed.). This would > certainly appear to suggest that some kind of writing was involved although > it is not, perhaps, conclusive.. I am wondering why Naama and anka are not conclusive enough to indicate that writing that spells "Rama" existed. This is even more conclusive than Kalidasa's Meghadutam in which the Yaksha tells the Cloud that his wife shall be heard singing a stanza containing his name , " Mat gotraankitapadam geyamudgaatukaamaa" I suppose the cardinal question is not whether writing was known in Valmiki's time (if that is certain!) but whether the technlogy of writing was inluential in communication, education, preservation of texts and so on? At what time does the impact of writing show itself in India? A useful field of research for indologists perhaps! From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Nov 11 00:12:50 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 00:12:50 +0000 Subject: Tamil Studies Message-ID: <161227053469.23782.14455051794349038040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, James ! Brilliant -- just what I wanted. Thanks for your efforts. Also thanks to Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan for the other info. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge ----- Original Message ----- From: James Nye To: Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 2:13 AM Subject: Re: Tamil Studies > Two Tamil-Sanskrit dictionaries filmed under the Microfilming of Indian > Publications Project may be of use. Entries from OCLC follow. > > --------- > > ACCESSION: 40408132 > AUTHOR: Nilampikai Ammaiyar, Tiruvaranka, 1903-1945. > TITLE: Vatacor Ramil akaravaricai > EDITION: 2d ed. > PLACE: Tirunelveli : > PUBLISHER: Kitaikkumitam, Tirunelvelit Tennintiya Caivacittanta Nurpatippuk > alakam, > YEAR: 1952 > PUB TYPE: Book > FORMAT: viii, 308 p. ; 16 cm. > SERIES: SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 40173. > NOTES: Tamil-Sanskrit dictionary. > Microfilm. New Delhi : Library of Congress Office ; Chicago : > Available from Center for Research Libraries, 1995. On 1 > microfilm reel with other items ; 35 mm. (SAMP early 20th-century > Indian books project ; item 40173) > SUBJECT: Tamil language -- Dictionaries -- Sanskrit. > > > ACCESSION: 40407913 > AUTHOR: Venkateca Carma, Ne. I. > TITLE: Sanskrta Dravida akaradi kosah > Sanskrit-Tamil dictionary = Samskruta-Tamil akarati / > PLACE: [Madras] : > PUBLISHER: Piramma Sayujya Pustakalaya Pracuram, > YEAR: uuuu 9999 > PUB TYPE: Book > FORMAT: v. <2 > ; 24 cm. > SERIES: SAMP early 20th-century Indian books project ; item 40188. > NOTES: -- 2. Meyyeluttukkal munpati Ka-Ta > Sanskrit Tamil dictionary. > Microfilm. New Delhi : Library of Congress Office ; Chicago : > Available from Center for Research Libraries, 1995- . On 1 > microfilm reel with other items ; 35 mm. (SAMP early 20th-century > Indian books project ; item 40188) > SUBJECT: Sanskrit language -- Dictionaries -- Tamil. > ALT TITLE: Sanskrit-Tamil dictionary > Samskrita-Tamil akarati > > > Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 02:21:40 -0000 > From: Stephen Hodge > Subject: Re: Tamil Studies > > Hello, Sudalaimuthu > > Thanks for your informative reply. However, though your suggestions > are helpful in other respects, I am not so much interested in > Tamil/Sanskrit cognates or loans so much as how X in Sanskrit would > have been translated into Tamil. > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge > From jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR Thu Nov 11 03:07:41 1999 From: jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR (J.S.Pitanga) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 01:07:41 -0200 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Message-ID: <161227053485.23782.15481355674571922308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >[Stephen Hodge:] >1. Some of the early texts now considered as Mahayana were not >actually composed as "Mahayana" texts but as "mahayana", if you >understand the distinction I am alluding to. They were composed by >"liberal" members of Hinayana schools. There is an Aaryabhavasa.mkrantinaamamahaayaanasuutra edited and translated by F. Tola and C. Dragonetti, which is reported to have been given in Raajag.rha to an assembly of both Bhik.sus and Bodhisattvas. However, Jeffrey Hopkins gives it the name Bhaavasa.mkrantisuutra (without the mahaayaana) and says that it is (at least partly) "established also for the Hearer [S'raavaka] Schools". I would be interested to know if this Suutra is found in the Paali Canon. Thank you, Julio. From bernede at WLINK.COM.NP Thu Nov 11 01:51:43 1999 From: bernede at WLINK.COM.NP (BERNEDE Franck) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 01:51:43 +0000 Subject: adress of Prof. Brendan Quayle Message-ID: <161227053476.23782.4762306219153575565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dears members, Does any body know the email address or fax number of Prof. Brendan Quayle (University of Dhuram) ? Thanks F. Bernede cellist / ethnomusicologist Off : UPR 299 du CNRS, Villejuif. France Res :Basnetgaon - Patan. N?pal Tel : 00 977 1 528 051 Fax : 00 977 1 419 968 (French Ambassy, Kathmandu) E. Mail : bernede at wlink.com.np bernede@ easynet.fr Mail : c/o Bernadette Vasseux Ambassade de france a Kathmandu / Nepal service de la valise diplomatique 128bis rue de l'univrsite 75351 Paris 07 SP F. Bernede cellist / ethnomusicologist Off : UPR 299 du CNRS, Villejuif. France Res :Basnetgaon - Patan. N?pal Tel : 00 977 1 528 051 Fax : 00 977 1 419 968 (Ambassade de France ? Kathmandu) E. Mail : bernede at wlink.com.np bernede@ easynet.fr Courrier : c/o Bernadette Vasseux Ambassade de france a Kathmandu / Nepal service de la valise diplomatique 128bis rue de l'univrsite 75351 Paris 07 SP From jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR Thu Nov 11 08:18:29 1999 From: jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR (J.S.Pitanga) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 06:18:29 -0200 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Message-ID: <161227053488.23782.4197044442662305562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >[Nanda Chandran:] >And it is my opinion that foreign lands never grasped Buddhism in its >element - apart from the preservation of the scriptures, literature etc >(which in truth doesn't amount to much), I know of none of the Buddhist >lands (except Bhutan perhaps?), which took it seriously enough that its >population turned vegetarian. Who either grasps or does not grasp Buddhism is not a land, but those intent on being Buddhists. And there is no need for the whole country's population to follow Buddhist precepts in order to Buddhism be preserved in such country - if this were true Buddhism would never have existed even in India. Besides many Buddhists have been reported to be strict vegetarians, for instance, in Tibet. To sum up, you seem to be overconcerned with futile generalizations and judgements, which definitely keep you far removed from any benefit you could derive from Buddhist teachings, no matter how vegetarian you may be. >MahAyAna polemics does refer to three kinds of Bauddhas, which >might map to TheravAda, Samskrutic HinayAna and MahAyAna : >In the Saddharmapundarika, while trying to maintain the supremacy >of MahAyAna over the other vehicles, bauddhas is split up into three >as : 1. shravakas (TheravAdins), 2. Pratyeka bauddhas (SarvAstivAdins) >and 3. Bodhisattvas (MahAyAnists). I request the specialists to confirm >this. Not being as much of a specialist as you would wish, it may be interesting to remark that the literature of the three of Theravaadins, Sarvaastivaadins and Mahaayaanists refer to the three of S'ravaakas, Pratyekabuddhas and Bodhisattvas. Also, although the first three (as well as many others such as Sautraantikas) are differentiated in terms of their tenets, the last three are differentiated in terms of their paths and fruits. Non-specialistically (and non-futilely) yours, Julio. From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM Thu Nov 11 07:43:29 1999 From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 07:43:29 +0000 Subject: When did the gods become literate? In-Reply-To: <19991110175411.42625.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053500.23782.5840514892848455952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> responding to Nanda Chandran: >In the first place Buddhism reached Lanka only after three hundred years >after the death of the SAkhyamuni. I have always suspected that it was there before. It is its acceptance by Devaanampiya Tissa which is the focus of the stories. >Nor did it get it naturally, like the way >the religion spread to other parts of India - Ashoka specifically sent his >son to spread Buddhism in Lanka. We know very little about how Buddhism spread to other parts of South Asia. But there were certainly other missionaries -referred to in various inscriptions and literary sources. >And don't you think it is strange that Ashoka would send his son to Lanka >for this specific purpose? Why did he not do the same with other parts of >India which were not under his control? And his sending his son to Lanka was >part of his effort to send missionaries to other countries - Greece, China, >Persia - to spread the faith, which may imply that Ashoka considered Lanka >as a foreign land like the others. He refers to the Colas and Paa.n.diyas in exactly the same way. So if you are right about this, it would establish the point I was making. In fact, his main distinction is between those under his rule and those not under his rule, which is quite a different matter. But note that this is perhaps the only (pre-Muslim) time in Indian history where we chance to have something reasonably close to the boundaries of modern India, if you include Pakistan and much of Afghanistan, that is ! >Though Lanka is not very far off from India, in those days when marine >capabilities were not so well developed, for all practical reasons it might >indeed have been as foreign as Greece. (Though I wouldn't be too sure about >this, for Tamils have a history of interaction with Lanka). But I doubt if >it was like hopping on to a ferry to cross the river - so interaction >between Lanka and India was not so easy or natural, like it would have been >if connected by land. On the contrary, travel by sea was much faster and easier at the right time of the year; so the travel distance from Patna to Ceylon may well have been much less than that to, say, Ujjain. As regards vegetarianism, this is a later development in both Buddhism and Brahmanism. The Buddha himself was not a vegetarian. >THIS IS REGARDING THE CLASSIFICATION OF BAUDDHAS : > >MahAyAna polemics does refer to three kinds of Bauddhas, which might map to >TheravAda, Samskrutic HinayAna and MahAyAna : In the Saddharmapundarika, >while trying to maintain the supremacy of MahAyAna over the other vehicles, >bauddhas is split up into three as : 1. shravakas (TheravAdins), 2. Pratyeka >bauddhas (SarvAstivAdins) and 3. Bodhisattvas (MahAyAnists). I request the >specialists to confirm this. Traditionally, Theravaada recognizes all possible goals. OXFORD, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk or selwyn at dtn.ntl.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 11 18:08:36 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 10:08:36 -0800 Subject: Buddhism - conceptual doubts Message-ID: <161227053517.23782.7122582874138747922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "To think of Self or not Self is not the truth; they're discriminated by the confused." - MahAyAna Vimsaka Take any object - let's take a gold ring. What's it? It is a ring. But ring is just a word, an appelation - if we'd named it 'zero' instead of ring, you'd right now be saying it's zero. So what's it then? It's round and with a hole in it. Even here you're only describing its features and qualities, but not itself. Besides this there're a lot of other things which are round with a hole in it, which may not be called ring. It is a piece of gold. So what's gold? Gold is an element - yellow in colour. So aren't there other elements which are yellow in colour? And even here you're only describing its qualities and not itself - the thing in itself - what's it? Even if you say the object is round, with a hole, an element, yellow in colour, still there's a chance that there's something which fits all these descriptions which might be called something else. And more important point is that whatever you say of it - round, with a hole, element, yellow etc - are but descriptions of it and does not explain the thing in itself. And such is the case with all objects in the world - you can only describe objects with qualities and attributes - but not the thing in itself. Even if these descriptions are subjected to further scrutiny, they themselves will lead to something else - but you can never explain the thing in itself. It's beyond knowledge. That's why all conceptions are empty. But that doesn't mean that the thing in itself is empty. It's just that it is beyond knowledge. As you cannot say that it has an existence, neither can you say that it is non-existent. For you simply do not know. Neither do you know whether it's both existent or non-existent, or neither. But in course of our normal life, we never look deep into things. When somebody gives you a ring - you just identify the qualities - round, with a hole, gold, yellow - with the object and identify it with the name 'ring' - without being aware that you're do not know the thing in itself. So that's how you give it the Self - the ring - Selfness. It's true that bestowing Selfness upon the ring is ignorance, but bestowing non-Selfness upon the ring is ignorance too. Why? Because in truth you do not know what it is. That's the reason NAgArjuna says, a thing is neither existent, nor non-existent, nor both nor neither - neither Self, nor non-Self, nor both, nor neither. That's the reason he further adds the Buddha before and after his parinirvAna is beyond conception. Conceptual knowledge is essentially of two categories - 1. of objects and 2. of activities related to objects. As we've seen the true nature of the object - the thing in itself is beyond knowledge. The activities related to objects too are beyond knowledge. Why? Because all our conceptions of activities are rooted in the twin bases of time and space. And time and space are indivisible. That's the reason when the fuel burns to fire, at any point in time we can only have the fuel or fire, but the exact moment the fuel turns to fire is beyond knowledge. Change, motion, cause and effect etc likewise are beyond knowledge. The thing in itself - which is beyond our conception - is the Reality, though we cannot associate it with existence, nor non existence, nor both, nor neither - why? - because existence etc are only concepts. So when the mind wheel ceases, conceptions also cease and whatever is left, the thing in itself - is nirvAna. That's what is meant by NAgArjuna's statement in the Examination of NirvAna - "We call this world phenomenal, but this same world abstracted from causality is nirvAna." So what's the true import of the Buddha's teaching? The relinquishment of *all* views - concepts. Bliss is cessation of thought, Quiescence of plurality. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR Thu Nov 11 12:10:10 1999 From: jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR (J.S.Pitanga) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 10:10:10 -0200 Subject: Buddhism - conceptual doubts Message-ID: <161227053506.23782.14421999200453405208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >[Nanda Chandran:] >3. The emptiness of samsAra (which is its true mode of being) is nirvAna >Here we've to tread carefully, for NAgArjuna himself warns that those >who try to make an end of emptiness itself, are beyond hope! Naagaarjuna said to be incurable those who made of emptiness a view, view being understood as view of a self. Now, sa.msaara's emptiness being sa.msaara's true mode of being does not mean that it is viewed as a self, for emptiness is empty itself, but rather that it exists as it appears to, or is non-deceptive, or is a truth. Being a truth not the same as being a self. >Let's first try to understand the concept "empty". When we say the box >is empty - we imply that 1. the box alone is and nothing else is inside >and 2. it's empty of something (whatever the box might contain). So for >the concept "empty" to work, we need both the box and that of which it >is empty. Perfect. >One can only say, the box or the pot or my stomach is empty, but cannot >use empty for itself. So Emptiness has no meaning by itself and can only >exist in relation to that to which it is referenced. Perfect. Emptiness is a quality of the empty object. That's by the way why emptiness is dependent on the empty object, and thus is not a self. >To say samsAra empty of inherent existence is nirvAna quite different >from "the emptiness of samsAra is nirvAna". Definitely. Even renowned Buddhologists fail to understand what you have so clearly stated. Also, sa.msaara empty of inherent existence is not nirvaa.na, but simply sam.saara, just because sa.msaara has always been empty of inherent existence. Besides, the emptiness of sa.msaara is nirvaa.na in its acceptation of natural nirvaa.na (the natural mode of being of phenomena), not in the acceptation of liberation from suffering. Nirvaa.na, in the sense of liberation from suffering, is explained as the complete destruction of the conception of inherent existence (or the conception of a self), the source of every suffering. >For in the latter, emptiness by itself is quantified and equated with >nirvAna! Correct, a natural nirvaa.na, which is not nirvaa.na in its acceptation of liberation from suffering. >And even in this line, there can be two interpretations : >a. When the Buddha views an object, he but sees only the emptiness - A Buddha is defined as a person who is capable of directly and simultaneously seeing a conventional object and its emptiness of inherent existence, because he has overcome not only the conceptions, but also the appearances of inherent existence. An Arhant, who is liberated from suffering but is not a Buddha, is defined as a person who directly sees either a conventional object without conceiving it as inherently existent, or its emptiness of inherent existence, but not both simultaneously, because he has eradicated the conceptions, but not the appearances of inherent existence. An Aarya being who is neither a Buddha nor an Arhant is defined as a person who directly sees either a conventional object while conceiving it to inherently exist, or its emptiness of inherent existence, because he has not completely eradicated the conception of inherent existence. >which according to NAgArjuna is not really empty in the way it's normally >understood : "it cannot be called void or not void or both nor neither, but >to indicate it it is called void". This is because an emptiness is neither inherently void, nor inherently non-void, nor both, nor neither, because an emptiness does not inherently exist. >This would but indicate that it's some kind of essence - an "other" to >the object, but that NAgArjuna doesn't want to call it as essence. Rather the opposite, it simply indicates that emptiness does not inherently exist, or is not an essence, or a self. Besides, if emptiness were held to be a self, as you hold, Naagaarjuna would have said that it can be called void, or non-void, or both, or neither - but then he would be making a view of emptiness, and thus would have to consider himself incurable. >OR >b. When the Buddha views an object, what he sees is emptiness - >that is the object itself appears *as* empty! As above explained, a Buddha simultaneously sees a conventional object, which appears as empty, and thus sees also its emptiness, because he is not under the power of appearances of inherent existence. >That would mean that the object doesn't appear at all! Wrong. The mere fact that a quality of the conventional object, its emptiness, appears, does not prevent the very conventional object to appear. Rather the opposite, it is just then that the conventional object appears in its full richness, because just then all its qualities are perceived. That's, by the way, why it is said that knowledge of emptiness enhances knowledge of conventional objects. >And if so what appears? Emptiness? As above, both the conventional object and its quality, emptiness. >That which cannot be related to form at all? Of course emptiness is be related to form, because it is form's (and other conventional phenomena's) mode of being found upon analysis. If emptiness were not related to conventional objects, such as form, it would inherently exist, and would be a self, and those who propounded such an emptiness would be indeed incurable. >But then how would you know that it is the object which appears >as emptiness? Since for a Buddha a conventional object appears together with its quality, emptiness, this problem could not arise. Besides, since emptiness is an object's lack of inherent existence, it is necessarily the emptiness of an object what appears as emptiness. Also, during a non-Buddha's direct cognition of emptiness, just emptiness is known, not the conventional objects qualified by emptiness, and thus the question does not arise of whose emptiness is the cognized emptiness. Furthermore, when one object's emptiness is cognized every other objects' emptinesses are simultaneously cognized too, because all them are just the same in that they are the lack of a self, and thus it is all objects that are appearing as emptiness. >Or is it as explained in the first alternative >(a), that emptiness doesn't mean emptiness in the way it's commonly >understood, but something beyond conception - supersensible and >supernatural. A generic image of emptiness is ascertained through a conceptual analytic consciousness; emptiness itself is directly cognized through a non-conceptual consciousness in a non-dualistic manner, because conception of emptiness repeatedly meditated upon eventually removes even appearances of inherent existence, and the consequent appearance of emptiness simultaneously dispels the appearance of subject and object. Julio. From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Thu Nov 11 09:15:35 1999 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei Schmalz) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 10:15:35 +0100 Subject: Wilson and the Padma Purana? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053491.23782.9342438823164771956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > As far as I am aware H. H. Wilson, translated no complete puraa.na other > than the Vi.s.nupuraa.na. By the way: he also translated the Matsya Purana (Nag Publishers), and he did NOT translate each verse in his translation of Visnu Purana (sorry, no time to provide an example, but I've seen quite some). Your ever well-wisher, Sergei. From BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA Thu Nov 11 15:16:33 1999 From: BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (GHOSE,LYNKEN,MR) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 10:16:33 -0500 Subject: Nala story Message-ID: <161227053511.23782.3673096573921725723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology List Members: I'm looking for a complete version of the Nala story in the original Sanskrit (not transliteration). Does anyone know where I could find all 26 (or so) cantos? Thank you, Lynken Ghose From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Thu Nov 11 10:02:34 1999 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei Schmalz) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 11:02:34 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit Words in Mongoilan Message-ID: <161227053494.23782.17033344183754962866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology members, please accept my respectful greetings. A friend of mine asked me once about Sanskrit words in Mongolian language. I have no knowledge of Mongolian, thus I redirect his question to the rishis assembled in this conference. One thing is very important: these words must be not those generally accepted equivalents used by Mongoilan Buddhists in their translations of e.g. Tibetan works, rather PURE, so to say, Sanskrit words, which came to Mongolian either directly from Sanskrit or via Tibetan or other languages. Any help in this regard is very much welcome. Thanks everyone in advance. Your ever well-wisher, Sergei Schmalz. Institute of Indology, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Nov 11 11:31:00 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 11:31:00 +0000 Subject: Poison, Witches, bones and flesh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053497.23782.12740482797162737968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Richard Gendron wrote: > I would also be grateful if anyone help me find references to bones being > transmitted to the offspring by the father, whereas flesh is coming from > the mother (again in Uttar Pradesh or in the Himalaya). This idea is part of the classical system of Indian medicine, and is described perfectly clearly in the earliest Sanskrit ayurvedic texts. Caraka's interesting chapter on heredity, for example, has a discussion on what contributes to the origin and growth of a foetus (Ca.sa.4, translated in my book _Roots of Ayurveda_, p.93-103). The conclusion is that five factors contribute: father, mother, self, appropriate parental diet, nutritive juices, and mind. Concerning the first two, the author says: -- The mother as cause `This embryo is created by the mother. For without a mother, no embryo comes into being, nor do any live-born creatures get to be born. `Some of the things which grow in the embryo are created just from the mother, and it has them because it grows from the mother. I shall list them: skin, blood, flesh, fat, navel, heart, lungs, liver, spleen, kidneys, bladder, rectum, stomach, site of digested food, upper excretory orifice, and the anus, the small intestine, large intestine, omentum, and what supports the omentum [mesentery]. The father as cause `This embryo is also created by the father. For without a father, no embryo comes into being, nor do any creatures born in a caul get to be born. `Some items that grow in the embryo are born just of the father, and it has them because it grows from the father. I shall list them: head hair, beard, nails, body hair, teeth, bones, ducts, sinews, pipes, and semen.' -- In the other chief surviving ancient Sanskrit medical compendium, by Susruta, exactly the same view is proposed. See Su.sa.3.33. In ayurveda, women's menstrual blood is described as a procreative fluid analagous to male semen. It is the merging of semen with menstrual blood which leads to the creation of the foetus. In this context, Susruta offers the curious but logical observation that if two women have sex and somehow manage to release their procreative fluids into each other's sex organs, then the resulting foetus will have no bones (Su.sa.2.47). -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Nov 11 12:02:21 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 12:02:21 +0000 Subject: Saffron in Kashmir In-Reply-To: <0.65f9b3b0.2557587a@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227053503.23782.2448875485639395208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vaughan & Geissler's _The new Oxford book of food plants_ (1997, isbn 019850567) is an authoritative source of much fascinating information. It says that saffron "probably originated in Asia Minor but has been cultivated in the Meiterranean area since ancient times. Today the main areas of cultivation are Spain, Turkey, and India." (p.142). Dymock's _Pharmacographia Indica_ (vol.3, p.453--61) gives a good historical account of saffron in India. He refers to passages in Jayadeva's Gitagovinda and other Persian, Arabic, and Latin sources. He then mentions (457) that "The Rajanighantu, which was written about 600 years ago by a native of Cashmere, speaks of saffron as coming from Cashmere, and the plant is still cultivated there on the Kareewahs near Pampur..." Dymock refers to Ince, Handbook of Cashmere. He also notes, rightly, that the earliest [Sanskrit] medical writers mention saffron. Narahari's Rajanighantu was probably composed ca. 1400, in Kashmir. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Thu Nov 11 12:07:09 1999 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 13:07:09 +0100 Subject: Wilson and the Padma Purana? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053509.23782.10549945606873189913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sergei Schmalz writes: > > As far as I am aware H. H. Wilson, translated no complete puraa.na other > > than the Vi.s.nupuraa.na. > > By the way: he also translated the Matsya Purana (Nag Publishers), > and he did NOT translate each verse in his translation of Visnu > Purana (sorry, no time to provide an example, but I've seen quite > some). The list of Nag Publishers I have gives the following information: "Matsya Mahapurana (Text with English translation and notes) -- N. S. Singh". Are you really sure that this work is by Wilson? Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar Universitaet Bonn From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 11 18:24:05 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 13:24:05 -0500 Subject: Special numbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053520.23782.4685667499034752358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Does anyone recognise the number 404 as a "special" number in an Indian >context? If so, where does it appear and what is special about it? well, of course there are 404 diseases in Buddhist texts... Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520 tel. 203-432-0828 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 11 21:37:56 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 13:37:56 -0800 Subject: oDDiyAna Message-ID: <161227053528.23782.11992876912933413019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Hodge, Interesting. Looking forward to read your paper. Ch. X of the GaNDavyUha talks of a KalyANamitra site, SamudravetAlIpradesha. The teacher is Ashaa of SamantavyUham udyAnam. Probably, vetAlI, aashaa, udyAnam go together. (?). In the next chapter, in the same region - samudravetAlI, Rishi Bhishmottaranirghosa resides in the Naalayur nAma janapadah. Probably the nAlayuur refers to the Ur in the Nallamalai range (ta. naL-/tel. nal- means black) from which River Krishna(Krishnaveni/kannapeNNA) flows. >?From tamil classical texts and other material, I think I have clues for several kalyanamaitra sites in the Gv. The South Indian sites mainly fall in two clusters: Ch. III-XI and XXIII- XXXII. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK Thu Nov 11 15:32:31 1999 From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 15:32:31 +0000 Subject: Nala story In-Reply-To: <11NOV99.11098096.0025.MUSIC@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> Message-ID: <161227053514.23782.10769699173056927578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, GHOSE,LYNKEN,MR wrote: > Dear Indology List Members: > > I'm looking for a complete version of the Nala story in the original > Sanskrit (not transliteration). Does anyone know where I could find > all 26 (or so) cantos? If you connect to http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk and register to use the electronic text of the Mahabharata, you will be able to download Book 3 (the Aranyakaparvan) which contains the Nala story (3.50 - 3.78). The text can be downloaded in different formats, including ISCII, which will appear as Devanagari text when used with appropriate software such as CDAC's ALP and iLeap programs, or Apple's Indian Language Kit. Alternatively you can download it as CSX (Romanised) text, and use the utility program mbh2dn to convert it into a form that can be printed as Devanagari using TeX and the devnag package. Unfortunately mbh2dn will only run on computers with Perl installed. Apart from ISCII and Unicode, there is no standard way to represent Devanagari and other Indian scripts on computers. If you have some other format in mind, let me know what it is by email (to me, not to the list). John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU Thu Nov 11 05:00:23 1999 From: Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Dr. Greg Bailey) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 16:00:23 +1100 Subject: Wilson and the Padma Purana? In-Reply-To: <19991111024708.21909.rocketmail@web120.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227053482.23782.12383783949892730853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ole, As far as I am aware H. H. Wilson, translated no complete puraa.na other than the Vi.s.nupuraa.na. For the translation and eidtions of this and other Puraa.nas, the best source is Ludo Rocher's exhaustive 1986 book on the Puraa.nas. Cheers, Greg Bailey >Did the 19th century scholar H.H. Wilson translate the >Padma Purana? > >How many different sanskrit versions exists of this >purana and how many english translations? > >I have been told that the issue of versions of the >Padma Purana is complicated by >(1) the factor of the existence of isolated extant >texts which claim to be supplements to the Purana and >by >(2) the factor of verses that commentators over the >centuries have quoted as being from the Purana that do >not appear in any known extant text purporting to be >part of the Purana. > >Also I am interested to find out if there is a >"Upapurana" ie. subsidiary Purana, which bears the >name of Padma Purana? > >Any information on this would be greatly appreciated, > >Thank you very much, > >Ole Alstrup > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 11 21:01:22 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 16:01:22 -0500 Subject: One more try re source of Buddhist story. Message-ID: <161227053523.23782.11940857914300678493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, A colleague needs to know the source of the following story for a rendering they are including in a book. Can anyone give me any information on it even if they can't give an exact reference. I vaguely recall having heard it in a Buddhist setting (and possibly also in a Hindu setting). The story is as follows. The Buddha (or a sage) meets a snake that has been killing and terrorizing a village and tells it to stop biting people. A year later the Buddha (or the sage) returns and sees the snake beaten and half dead and asks it what happened. The snake replies that he stopped biting people and this is what happened to him. The Buddha (or sage) replies that he didn't tell him to stop hissing at people. Does anyone know if this story is Buddhist or Hindu (or other) in origin and any other information about it. Many thanks, Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From tlk at MATH.KU.DK Thu Nov 11 21:10:53 1999 From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 22:10:53 +0100 Subject: One more try re source of Buddhist story. In-Reply-To: <19991111210123.13731.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053526.23782.5143448427486996862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Spier, > The Buddha (or a sage) meets a snake that has been killing and terrorizing > a village and tells it to stop biting people. A year later the Buddha (or > the sage) returns and sees the snake beaten and half dead and asks it what > happened. The snake replies that he stopped biting people and this is > what happened to him. The Buddha (or sage) replies that he didn't tell > him to stop hissing at people. > > Does anyone know if this story is Buddhist or Hindu (or other) in origin > and any other information about it. I am not able to give any reference but I have heard this story before (in a Hindu setting). I believe the sage was Narada, and that he advised the snake to hiss but not bite. Hopefully someone has the reference. Sincerely, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Thu Nov 11 22:04:39 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 01:04:39 +0300 Subject: One more try re source of Buddhist story. In-Reply-To: <19991111210123.13731.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053530.23782.7721703300219051001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Spier, this story, in particular, was told by Ramakrishna to his disciples. It seems to me that I have read it recently in the Russian translation of Isherwood's book on the great Indian mystic. This version was purely Hindu, with no Buddha in it. The parable (in its Buddhist version) gained renewed popularity in India quite recently, after the nuclear bomb test. I had an opportunity to hear it told by a high Indian state official - head of a delegation which came to Russia very soon after the event. Yaroslav Vassilkov Fri, 12 Nov 99 00:01 +0300 MSK Harry Spier wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: > Dear list members, > >Can anyone give me any information on it even > if they can't give an exact reference. I vaguely recall having heard it in > a Buddhist setting (and possibly also in a Hindu setting). The story is as > follows. > > The Buddha (or a sage) meets a snake that has been killing and terrorizing a > village and tells it to stop biting people. A year later the Buddha (or the > sage) returns and sees the snake beaten and half dead and asks it what > happened. The snake replies that he stopped biting people and this is what > happened to him. The Buddha (or sage) replies that he didn't tell him to > stop hissing at people. > > Does anyone know if this story is Buddhist or Hindu (or other) in origin and > any other information about it. > > Many thanks, > > > Harry Spier > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Fri, 12 Nov 99 00:38 +0300 MSK From hart at POLBOX.COM Fri Nov 12 01:37:26 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 02:37:26 +0100 Subject: Duration of kalA In-Reply-To: <0.1ce191c9.25302427@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227053533.23782.8499924336042507281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 00:52 9.10.99 -0400, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >Dear Indologists, >I have some questions regarding the time unit kalai (Ta.)/kalA (Skt.). and vik >alai (Ta.)/vikalA (Skt.). Tamil lexicon and MMW define these terms as given >below. > > >Tamil Lexicon gives the following >----------------------------------------------- >kalai >...5. indian hour =1/60 of a 1/30 of a zodiacal sign; 6. a time measure; > >vikalai >1. the Indian hour of 24 minutes; 2. second of a degree=1/60 kalai > > >MMW gives the following >----------------------------------------------- >kalA >------- >f. (etym. doubtful) a small part of anything , any single part or portion of >a whole , esp. a sixteenth part RV. viii , 47 , 17 TS. ZBr. Mn. &c. ; a digit >or one-sixteenth of the moon's diameter Hit. KathAs. ... ; a symbolical >expression for the number sixteen Hcat.; ...a division of time (said to be >1/900 of a day or 1.6 minutes Mn. i , 64 Hariv. ; or 1/1800 of a day or 0.8 >minutes Comm. on VP. ; or 2 minutes and 26 and 54/201 seconds Suzr. ; or 1 >minute and 35 and 205/301 seconds , or 8 seconds BhavP.) ; the sixtieth part >of one-thirtieth of a zodiacal sign , a minute of a degree sUryas.... > >vikalA - the 60th part of a kalA, the second of a degree, sUryas. I would be interested to know what is the relation of vikala to vipala? Vipala is described by G.R. Kaye (in his Hindu Astronomy, Calcutta 1924, p. 122) as equal to 0,1' = 0,4 sec = 1/216000 part of day. With regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland ------------------------------------------------ Czekam na przeszczep, potrzebuje twojej pomocy.. Zajrzyj na moja strone http://joannach.topnet.pl ------------------------------------------------ From hart at POLBOX.COM Fri Nov 12 01:40:10 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 02:40:10 +0100 Subject: Are our Gods literate? In-Reply-To: <000a01bf24c9$94245a20$01fd7586@hdehejia.carleton.ca> Message-ID: <161227053536.23782.8689289878981538294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 12 14:50:14 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 06:50:14 -0800 Subject: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham - part 2" Message-ID: <161227053547.23782.3025055671823667700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Rm. Krishnan, A small request. As this list or the field of Indology in general, is mainly Sanskrit oriented (not even 2 or 3 Dravidologists around), it is probably better to employ a standard transliteration for tamil. Cologne website follows for their collection of tamil texts and online lexicon the following adapted from the good old Madras University Tamil lexicon: uyir(vowels): a A/aa i I/ii u U/uu e E/ee ai o O au mey(consonants): k G/ng c J/nj T/.t N/.n t n p m y r l v z L/.l R/.r n2 Regards, SM ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 12 15:01:41 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 07:01:41 -0800 Subject: bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053550.23782.10670111244756282245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >I trace the > origin of the term "dakini" to Munda roots connected with drumming / > summoning.< Also, takkai is a drum in tamil from ancient times, there is an entire takkai rAmAyaNam with 3300+ songs set to "takkai tALam". .takka is a drum used in Malayalam country even today. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 12 16:37:43 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 08:37:43 -0800 Subject: Special numbers Message-ID: <161227053557.23782.1182299664883173114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Remember reading a paper by Parpola sometime ago, wherein M. Deshpande told about milkmen pouring little more than the purchase volume (will give the ref. later) in India; I think discussions on these are in the archives too. 404 = 4 X 101 101 is little more than 100 (to cross the threshold value). But why 4? Classical Tamil anthologies are puRam 400, akam 400, etc., One Sanskritist told me that 4 is the perfect number, 4 corners, 4 vedas, 4 varNas,etc., P. Claus, in a paper on Gollas (ta. kuRumpar, skt. yAdhav) says that moving from tribal to a caste, folks leave their "circular" to "rectangular" (4 corners, sharply defined) world. May be the 4 in 404 has all and more of all these elements. Regards, N. Ganesan * *It is 4 X 101, and 101 is a frequently important number, because it *is 100 + 1, and round numbers such as 100, 1000, 10,000, etc. are *viewed as inauspicious, and so gifts of money e.g. to templesa are *frequently made in denominations of 101, 1001, etc. 101 Happens to *be a prime number but I'm unaware of any symbolical or other *numerological significance attributed to primes in the Indian * tradition. As you know 1001 and 10001 are not primes, and so I don't think being a prime number is a consideration. The idea, I believe, is that it should be a 'growing' number and should not 'terminate' on some 'neat' number. I'm not aware of any textual basis for this. C.R.Selvakumar * *Allen Thrasher ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Nov 12 14:44:01 1999 From: 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 09:44:01 -0500 Subject: bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053545.23782.10633893790829466950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: >I trace the origin of the term "dakini" to Munda roots connected with drumming / summoning.< This is an interesting etymology. Would you care to explain? With best regards, Ulrich T. Kragh University of Copenhagen From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 12 17:47:11 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 09:47:11 -0800 Subject: Special numbers Message-ID: <161227053563.23782.16854030732841501549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Interesting. It appears that dividing by 4 is often (not always) considered to be adequately 'detailed'. Thus four-way classification is popular as in directions (of course further refinements to 8 and 16 also occur)etc. In tamil the expression 'naalu pErai kEttup paaru' literally means ask four persons but it actually means ask several different people. The number 108 is also said to be 4 times 27 where 27 is supposed to represent the number of constellations (according to Tamil system) in the sky. The four is the number of subdivisions and each division is called a paatam. The sanskrit system is supposed to have 28 constellations. The name for the constellation is naTcattiram in tamil and I believe it is based on the Tamil word naaL (mIn) = star. (kOL = planet) >>> When folks say, "4 pEr vENum", they refer to 4 people for the final carrying away of the corpse :-) In Dravidian, the word for "number" and "eight" are the same and identical(ta. eN, ka. eNTu, ...). It looks the original arithmetic was based on 8. So any division by 4, 8, 16 are pointing to that idea. May be 108 = 100 + 8 is coming out of this, 8 being equivalent to what is 10 in decimal system. It is highly significant that the Sanskrit word for planet, "graha" is an exact loan translation of "kOL". "graha" as "planet" has no cognates in IE, ("graha" is like english "grab", no planet). For details, see Parpola's book. ta. kOL(planet) from the verb "koL"(to hold/grab) follows ta. noun/verb pairs: a) vIDu(house)/viDu(to leave), b) pATa(singing, RV)/paTu(-ttu)(to harmonize. cf. isai - music) c) mAyA/maya(-kku) (to bewilder/confuse) d) mIn(fish/star)/min(to shine) and 100s more sets like these. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Nov 12 15:42:17 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 10:42:17 -0500 Subject: Special numbers Message-ID: <161227053552.23782.10870907219875808933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is 4 X 101, and 101 is a frequently important number, because it is 100 + 1, and round numbers such as 100, 1000, 10,000, etc. are viewed as inauspicious, and so gifts of money e.g. to templesa are frequently made in denominations of 101, 1001, etc. 101 Happens to be a prime number but I'm unaware of any symbolical or other numerological significance attributed to primes in the Indian tradition. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. >>> John Smith 11/10 9:44 AM >>> Does anyone recognise the number 404 as a "special" number in an Indian context? If so, where does it appear and what is special about it? John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Fri Nov 12 16:13:31 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 11:13:31 -0500 Subject: Special numbers Message-ID: <161227053555.23782.7396076167369301116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * *It is 4 X 101, and 101 is a frequently important number, because it is *100 + 1, and round numbers such as 100, 1000, 10,000, etc. are viewed *as inauspicious, and so gifts of money e.g. to templesa are frequently *made in denominations of 101, 1001, etc. 101 Happens to be a prime *number but I'm unaware of any symbolical or other numerological *significance attributed to primes in the Indian tradition. As you know 1001 and 10001 are not primes, and so I don't think being a prime number is a consideration. The idea, I believe, is that it should be a 'growing' number and should not 'terminate' on some 'neat' number. I'm not aware of any textual basis for this. C.R.Selvakumar * *Allen Thrasher From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 12 19:15:14 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 11:15:14 -0800 Subject: When did the gods become literate? Message-ID: <161227053568.23782.3975015980786064218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Julio writes : >Who either grasps or does not grasp Buddhism is not a land, but thoseintent >on being Buddhists. And there is no need for the whole country's population >to follow Buddhist precepts in order to Buddhism be preserved in such >country - if this were true Buddhism would never have existed even in >India. This whole assumption is based on the presumption that to be a Buddhist you need to intellectually grasp something - that is the truth is to be grasped intellectually. This is quite in tune with Western - European conceptions of the power of the intellect which elevates it to absurd levels and undermines the importance of virtue, control and compassion. The SanAtana Dharmam in Bharath has not lasted through the millenea and often in hostile conditions, because people read the Bhagavath Gita or the VedAnta SUtrams or engaged in the suble dialectic of Advaitam. That which sustains this culture is the way of life itself - the dharmam - the do and don'ts, the rights and wrongs, the sublime and the trivial. Truth is to be lived and not to be grasped. That's why in the Buddha's Eight Fold Path, there's no studying of philosophy etc For no amount of thought - however subtle it may be can bring an end to suffering. The Upanishadic Seers and the Buddha are unanimous in saying that the Truth is beyond mere reasoning. As M Gandhi says, it's not a mind grasp, but a heart grasp. The path is a way of life to be lived - with right knowledge of the world, one should endeavour to turn away from its lures and practice meditation - and vegetarianism is an essential part of this way of life. >Besides many Buddhists have been reported to be strict >vegetarians, for instance, in Tibet. If so, I salute them - they're indeed true sons of the SAkhyamuni. >Not being as much of a specialist as you would wish, it may be interesting >to remark that the literature of the three of Theravaadins, >Sarvaastivaadins and Mahaayaanists refer to the three of S'ravaakas, >Pratyekabuddhas and Bodhisattvas. It only strengthens my views that all the three classes of Bauddhas recognized their distinction - else why would they each refer to the other two? L Cousins writes : >I have always suspected that it was there before. It is its acceptance by >Devaanampiya Tissa which is the focus of the stories. Let me make an observation here. The culture of Andhra and Tamil Nadu, which are close to one another are not very different - in terms of dress, food, social customs etc But the difference between Lanka (SinhAla) and Tamil Nadu is quite distinct. And if interaction between India and Lanka were as you claim, such a distinction cannot be supported. And when Hinduism gained ascendency in Tamil Nadu, that should've reflected in Lanka too. But Sinhalese have remained stauch Bauddhas and even seem to consider Hinduism as an alien religion. >We know very little about how Buddhism spread to other parts of South Asia. >But there were certainly other missionaries -referred to in various >inscriptions and literary sources. But I think the case should be pretty obvious atleast in India itself. >He refers to the Colas and Paa.n.diyas in exactly the same way. But for some reason, he didn't consider them to be important enough to send his son there. So why Lanka? >On the contrary, travel by sea was much faster and easier at the right time >of the year; so the travel distance from Patna to Ceylon may well have been >much less than that to, say, Ujjain. What? From Bihar to Ceylon? To get to Ceylon from Bihar you'd have to first cross Ujjain itself. >As regards vegetarianism, this is a later development in both Buddhism and >Brahmanism. The Buddha himself was not a vegetarian. I doubt it. The spirit of his teachings deny it. Compassion = no killing. Sometime back I met a Lankan bhikshu in Madras. He was staying in a three star hotel! Anyway I asked him about vegetarianism. He cooly asserted that the Buddha didn't enforce it. I questioned him whether it was true that the Buddha forbade the eating of meat, where something was killed specifically to feed a bhikshu. He said yes, but also immediately said it didn't make any difference because the meat that he ate was bought in a shop. But then why would they sell meat in a shop, if people didn't eat it? It is because that people like him ate it, that the shop sold meat, which was what caused an animal to be killed. He looked confused for a minute and said all this wasn't practical in normal day to day life! Whoever said, that to be a bhikshu - to renounce the world - is being practical? If you want to live your normal life, then live it - why pretend to be a follower of the Buddha? The point in Buddha not condemning meat was that his bhikshus were supposed to beg for food. So whatever they got, which was generally the leftovers of the common people, they were supposed to be satisfied with it - even if it be meat - and not be choosy about the food they ate. But if food is specifically cooked for the bhikshu and if some animal was killed to specifically for that purpose, the bhikshu was supposed to refuse such food. In short the motto is : eat what is available. But if something is prepared just for feeding you, make sure it doesn't involve killing. To misinterpret this as Buddha didn't endorse vegetarianism, is to miss the spirit of his teachings. And this trend seems common in countries where eating meat is part of the culture, thus justifying practices not compatible with Buddhism. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Fri Nov 12 17:13:58 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 12:13:58 -0500 Subject: Special numbers Message-ID: <161227053560.23782.11791097593322042895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Remember reading a paper by Parpola sometime ago, wherein *M. Deshpande told about milkmen pouring little more than *the purchase volume (will give the ref. later) in India; I think *discussions on these are in the archives too. * *404 = 4 X 101 *101 is little more than 100 (to cross the threshold value). * *But why 4? *Classical Tamil anthologies are puRam 400, akam 400, etc., *One Sanskritist told me that 4 is the perfect number, 4 corners, *4 vedas, 4 varNas,etc., P. Claus, in a paper on Gollas (ta. kuRumpar, *skt. yAdhav) says that moving from tribal to a caste, folks leave *their "circular" to "rectangular" (4 corners, sharply defined) *world. * *May be the 4 in 404 has all and more of all these elements. Interesting. It appears that dividing by 4 is often (not always) considered to be adequately 'detailed'. Thus four-way classification is popular as in directions (of course further refinements to 8 and 16 also occur)etc. In tamil the expression 'naalu pErai kEttup paaru' literally means ask four persons but it actually means ask several different people. The number 108 is also said to be 4 times 27 where 27 is supposed to represent the number of constellations (according to Tamil system) in the sky. The four is the number of subdivisions and each division is called a paatam. The sanskrit system is supposed to have 28 constellations. The name for the constellation is naTcattiram in tamil and I believe it is based on the Tamil word naaL (mIn) = star. (kOL = planet) C.R.Selvakumar * *Regards, *N. Ganesan From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 12 21:45:55 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 13:45:55 -0800 Subject: Nala story Message-ID: <161227053570.23782.9250922723277038244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I'm looking for a complete version of the Nala story in the original >Sanskrit (not transliteration). Does anyone know where I could find >all 26 (or so) cantos? > In addition to the Mahabharata account, you might also be interested in Sriharsha's Naishadakavya, published with commentaries from the Nirnayasagar Press (1952 or 53). Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jrgardn at EMORY.EDU Fri Nov 12 19:12:53 1999 From: jrgardn at EMORY.EDU (John Robert Gardner) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 14:12:53 -0500 Subject: Special numbers In-Reply-To: <199911121713.MAA27846@valluvar.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <161227053565.23782.2183528102605737301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, C.R. Selvakumar wrote: > *Remember reading a paper by Parpola sometime ago, wherein > *M. Deshpande told about milkmen pouring little more than > *404 = 4 X 101 > *101 is little more than 100 (to cross the threshold value). > * > *But why 4? I'm figuring, if it's John Smith doing the asking originally (as I recall), that there must be some curiousity at stake as to any possible serendipity with the Web Error 404 Not Found message and any South Asian numerological significations. I'm curious as well, as 404 continues to inscribe itself into the develomental reincarnations of the web -- ironically, most often when a resource reincarnates as its URI is then most likely to change! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-= John Robert Gardner, Ph.D. ATLA-CERTR Emory University ------------------------------------------------------------ http://vedavid.org/ "If there is something you're thinking of doing, or wish you could do, begin it. In boldness there is mystery and power . . . . " _Goethe > *Classical Tamil anthologies are puRam 400, akam 400, etc., > *One Sanskritist told me that 4 is the perfect number, 4 corners, > *4 vedas, 4 varNas,etc., P. Claus, in a paper on Gollas (ta. kuRumpar, > *skt. yAdhav) says that moving from tribal to a caste, folks leave > *their "circular" to "rectangular" (4 corners, sharply defined) > *world. > * > *May be the 4 in 404 has all and more of all these elements. > > Interesting. It appears that dividing by > 4 is often (not always) considered to be > adequately 'detailed'. Thus four-way classification > is popular as in directions (of course > further refinements to 8 and 16 also occur)etc. > In tamil the expression 'naalu pErai kEttup paaru' > literally means ask four persons but it actually means > ask several different people. The number 108 is also said to be > 4 times 27 where 27 is supposed to represent the number of > constellations (according to Tamil system) in the sky. > The four is the number of subdivisions and each division is > called a paatam. > The sanskrit system is supposed to have 28 constellations. > The name for the constellation is naTcattiram in tamil > and I believe it is based on the Tamil word naaL (mIn) = star. > (kOL = planet) > > C.R.Selvakumar > > * > *Regards, > *N. Ganesan > From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Nov 12 14:39:37 1999 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM.Krishnan) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 19:39:37 +0500 Subject: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham - part 1" Message-ID: <161227053542.23782.18167397996630656259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11/10/99 8:13:00 AM, Mr.Didier wrote: >Thanks to all of you for your helpfull and very various responses, >and for the bibliography and the links. > >it is very interesting for me to see that many different hypothesis >can be followed and the comparaison with dravidian languages is >very interesting. What follows is a long posting on 'aham'. I have split it into two. Instead of a novice like me adumbrating on the etymology of the Sanskrit word 'aham' comparing to the Tamil pronouns, I thought it would be worthwhile to paraphrase a great Tamilologist. I am refering to G.Devaneyan (also called pAvANar - bard), Ex-Reader and Head, Dept. of Dravidian Philology, Annamalai University as given in "The primary classical language of the world ". I have also included in some places few of my comments and short re-phrasings. This book, presently out of print, was published through private sources. Efforts of pAvANar in Tamil philology and etymology are immense and the Indologists, especially the western ones, have barely scratched his contributions let alone delve into them. ----------------------------------------quote Deictic sounds in Tamil are three, viz., A, I (not to be pronounced as aye; actual pronunciation is like in Germanic languages other than English -Krishnan) and U. These are also the primary long vowels. There are corresponding short vowels a, i and u. A or a is the remote demonstrative. I or i is the proximate demonstrative. U or u is the frontal demonstrative. All the three demonstrative sounds have originated, as per Tamil traditions, only as oral pointers. With the exception of the frontal demonstrative, which has become obsolete, all others are performing their functions in modern Tamil. (Apparently the pronouns have arisen out of the demonstratives. Excepting MalayALam, other Dravidian languages like Tamil, Telugu and Kannada also have the pronominal terminations of finite verbs in their modern rendering. In MalayALam, there is no such termination. So in every Tamil sentence you look for the pronoun and a confirmation through the pronominal ending. - Krishnan). First person personal pronouns: Here the proximate demonstrative ' I ' changes over to a related vowel 'E'. The monosyllabic word E has a meaning of elation, elevation, erection, looking upward etc to express egoism, the most natural trait of human character. Singular Singular Plural Plural Double plural Double plural Nominative Oblique base Nominative Oblique base Nominative Oblique base I st stage En, I en, my Em, we em, our EngaL, we engaL, our (Exclusive) (Exclusive) (Exclusive) (Exclusive) 2 nd stage yAn, I en,my yAm, we em, our yAngaL,we yangaL,our (Exclusive) (Exclusive) (Exclusive) (Exclusive) 3 rd stage nAn, I nan, my nAm, we nam, our nAngaL, we nangaL, our (Inclusive) (Inclusive) (Inclusive) (Inclusive) (yAn and yAm exclude the party addressed and nAn and nAm include the same.) The nominative En and Em have become extinct, except as pronominal terminations of finite verbs, the former being common to both colloquial and poetic, and the latter restricted to poetic usage. yAn and yAm have become obsolete and highly literary; and the oblique base nan extinct in Tamil, though preserved in Telugu and Kannada. The double plural forms of personal pronouns are obtained by adding a plural suffix -kal to the singular pronouns and used for addressing respectable persons. The nominatives EngaL, has become extinct, and the forms yAngaL and nangaL obsolete. The form nAngaL is misused in the place of yAngaL. Second Person personal pronouns: Singular Singular Plural Plural Double Plural Double Plural Nominative Oblique base Nominative Oblique base Nominative Oblique base I st stage (Un, thou) un, thy (Um, you) um, your (UngaL, thou) ungaL, thy 2 nd stage (nUn, thou) nun,thy (nUm, you) num, your (nUngaL, thou) nungaL, thy 3 th stage nIn, thou nin, thy nIm, you nim, your nIngaL, thou ningaL, thy 4 th stage nI, thou un, thy nIyir, you um, your nIngaL, thou ungal, thy As the person addressed is in front of the speaker, the frontal demonstrative naturally formed the base of the second personal pronoun. There is reason to infer or suppose that there was an intermediate stage between the first and the third, with the forms yUn, thou and yUm, you. The nominatives Un, Um, nUn, nUm, and the oblique base nun, and num have become extinct. num is confined to the poetic dialect. nIn and nIm are still current in the Thirunelveli District among certain sections of the peasants though not known to those who have been neither natives nor residents of that part of Tamilnadu. nIn is not to be found anywhere in the extant Tamil literature. The most common and universal form of the singular pronouns of the second person is nI, the a-poetic form of nIn. Its plural is formed by the addition of ar, the rational plural suffix of the third person, as nIyir, the change of 'a' into 'i' being due to the operation of the principle of harmonic sequence of vowels. nIvir is an anomalous form of nIyir, and both of these have contracted into nIr, which has replaced nIm in the colloquial speech almost all over Tamilnadu. The nominatives UngaL and nUngaL have become extinct, and NingaL is preserved in Malayalam. -------------------------------------Unquote Continued in the second part With regards, RM.Krishnan From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Nov 12 14:39:41 1999 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM.Krishnan) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 19:39:41 +0500 Subject: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham - part 2" Message-ID: <161227053539.23782.18320278408447749913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11/10/99 8:13:00 AM, Mr.Didier wrote: >Thanks to all of you for your helpfull and very various responses, >and for the bibliography and the links. > >it is very interesting for me to see that many different hypothesis >can be followed and the comparaison with dravidian languages is >very interesting. I am continuing with the second part. --------------------------------Quote Before we move on to third person pronouns, we need to know that Tamils divide all animate and inanimate things into two classes, viz., uyarthinai, the high class, and AhRinai, the low class. The former comprises all rational beings (like human beings, celestials and God) and the latter all the rest. We indicate the natural gender and the number only for the rational beings, and for the irrational beings we refer only the number. So we have 5 grammatical genders (which are products of natural gender and number: AnbAl (masculine singular), peNbAl (feminine singular), palarbAl (masculine, feminine or epicene plural), onRanbAl (irrational singular), palavinbAl (irrational plural). As indicated early, there are pronouns and pronominal termination of a sentence. Here we first look into the third person pronominal terminations.: masculine singular - An, he; feminine singular - AL, she; epicene plural - Ar, they; irrational singular - thu, it; irrational plural - vai, they. Third person nominative terminations An, AL and Ar might have stood as pronouns in earlier times; but today, they do not stand alone as third person pronouns. (However oblique base pronouns have become reflexive pronouns, viz., thAn - he, she, it, himself, herself, itself and thAm - they, themselves.) Modern third person demonstrative pronouns always indicate the product of the demonstratives and the grammatical genders. For example, when you join a (remote demonstrative) and an (shortened form of An for the masculine singular gender), the third person frontal pronoun is obtained with an automatic insertion of v, viz., avan. Likewise, all other pronouns may be obtained as given below. Remote third person pronouns avan, he avan, his avar, they avar, their avaL, she avaL, her athu, that athan, its avai, those avai, their Proximate third person pronouns ivan, he ivan, his ivar, they ivar, their ivaL, she ivaL, her ithu, this ithan, its There are also double plural forms of third person pronouns. These are obtained by adding a plural suffix -kal to the singular pronouns and used for addressing respectable persons. Nominative: thAngaL, they, themselves; Oblique Base: thangaL, their, of themselves. ThAngaL and thangaL are also used in the second person in the sense of 'your honour', and 'of your honour' respectively, when addressing persons worthy of high degree of reverence. ------------------------------------------Unquote Now we come to aham. In my opinion, this is related to the Tamil first person pronouns yAn and yAm. The prenominal terminations corresponding to these pronouns are An and Am and their vowel variations On/Om, En/Em. Am can easily become aham while pronouncing. Incidentally, it has often been suggested in many languages, the word for affirmation is the same as or quite related to the first person pronoun. In Tamil, the affirmation is by the word 'Am' and in Hindi and other north Indian languages 'hA(ng/)m'. We also say 'Ahum - it will become' for affirmation. I end with my oft repeated statement (i.e. one of my stellingen, if there is anybody Dutch, he/she would understand): Considering the north Indian languages (together with Sanskrit) and the European languages as two branches of a single Indo-European tree is only a first step. Most probably, the Dravidian languages form an earlier branch of the same tree. It is always illuminating to bring in Dravidian parallel along with Indo - European terms (especially so for Sanskrit), since Tamilology is a significant part of Indology. With regards, RM.Krishnan From GthomGt at CS.COM Sat Nov 13 01:41:54 1999 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 20:41:54 -0500 Subject: Q: mAyA Message-ID: <161227053578.23782.9579353054449564498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With apologies to N. Ganesan for this tardy response: In a message dated 11/9/99 11:47:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Two queries on the word, mAyA: > > 1) From 10-jun-98 post, RV mentions "all the ungodly magical > practices" of those hostile to the vedic aryans (vi'zvA a'devIH ... > mAyA'H) and, a'deva seems to refer to humans. Is it true that mAyA is > usually associated with adevas in the RV? No, the term is used of Vedic RSis themseleves, of asuras, of devas [e.g., VaruNa, Indra, Agni, Soma, etc.], as well as, but only occasionally, DAsas, Dasyus, adevas, VRtra, and rakSasas, etc. The concept is not negative in itself, but only when used with negative figures such as these. > > 2) Given the fact that "mAiiA" is attested only once in the entire > Avestan gathas, and that the association between Old Persian and > RV is pervasive and deep, could the Iranians have borrowed the term > "mAiiA" from Indo-Aryans? Does the numerical strength of evidence for > mAyA, mayakku, mAyai, etc., being more than 99% in both Indo-Aryan > and Dravidian show India to be the birthplace of the culturally loaded > concept, mAyA? (Or else, mAyA should be IIr heritage???) This is more difficult to answer. It is true that mAiiA is attested only once in the Gathas, but there are a handful of terms that may be related: humAiiA [cf. Skt. sumAya], humaiiaka [note the short vowel, vs. Skt. sumAyaka]. We do not find in Avestan a direct correspondent of Skt. durmAyin or durmAyu 'involved in bad arts', but mAiiu without the prefix is attested in Avestan. The problem is that it is hard to establish firm relationships among all of these words, since there is confusion in Avestan of long and short vowels. It is not clear whether the Avestan forms are to be related to Skt. mAyA, or rather to Skt. mayas [= Avestan maiiah], refreshment, enjoyment, etc. So it is possible that there is no Iranian evidence at all. But if we accept the Gathic form as related to Skt. mAyA, yes, it is very much possible that it could have been borrowed from Indic. The fact that the Avestan forms humAiiA and humaiiaka appear to be proper names may support the case for borrowing from Indic, since proper names do migrate easily. In one case the person named is an enemy of the religion of MazdA, but in the other case it is the name of a daughter of a Zoroastrian. Unfortunately, here again the evidence is not clear-cut. In general, Ganesan, I do not think that your view is incompatible with Michael Witzel's [who does concede the possiblity of borrowing from Dravidian, though at an early date which is problematic from MW's point of view]. The only point that I would add is that mAyA [and mAyin] in the RV has strong associations with magic [and magician]. Is there a similar association in Dravidian? If we fail to deal with this association of mAyA and magic, we will not do justice to the RV evidence. Best wishes, George Thompson From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Nov 13 00:47:10 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 00:47:10 +0000 Subject: dakinis (was: bones and flesh) Message-ID: <161227053573.23782.6062800519157039338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Ulrich ! My hypothesis in outline is as follows: 1. The earliest known occurence of the term ".daakinii" is in the Gangdhar stone found at the site of old ruins in Gangaadhara, 52 miles SW of Jhalrapatan, Jhalawar State dated 424CE. It especially emphasizes the shouting and tumultuous noise made by the .daakiniis. The term may have been use a little earlier as it seems to occur in the Meat-eating Chapter of the Lankavatara Sutra. 2. I would link the use of the word .daakinii with the early Gupta conquest / occupation of the Kalinga area which covered much of the places inhabited by Austro-asiatic speakers. 3. The word "gho.sa" is linked almost synonymously with ".daaka". It should also be noted that the "gho.sinii" who are attendants to Rudra in the Atharva-veda are the precursors of the .daakiniis. ".Daamarii" is given as alternative for ".daakinii" is several Tantras. 4. Traditionally, the derivation of ".daakinii" is supposed to be .dii (to fly) but this is obviously problematic. In any case the term is not IE / Sanskritic in origin. If we look at words used for witch / shaman / drumming / summoning is NE Indian languages we see: BENGALI .daaka - (vb): shout, call aloud, send for. .daak[a]: a shout, a loud call. .daaka: a male shaman, occult practitioner .daakinii: a female shaman, occult practitioner .daa'nka: an expert in occult practice .daa'nkaa: i) a type of drum; ii) the drum beating announcing a challenge from an occult practitioner. Etymological Dictionary of Bengali (Sukumar Sen) ORIYA .daaka: 1. a sorcerer 2. loud sound, roaring some, call, summons .daaki: hourglass-shaped drum .daakiba: (vb) to call, to summon, to invite, to shout .daakinii: a sorceress, a witch .daa'nkinii: a sorceress, a witch .daa'nkunii: a sorceress, witch .daa'nkenii: a sorceress, a witch HO .da.mri: wizard .da.mri era: witch SANTALI .dan: witch The root of the word is thus likely to be ".dam" with a IE suffix. It is probably to be linked also with the ".domba" caste who were drummers, and with ".damaru", ".damari" etc. I initially though the nasal in some forms of ".daakinii" above might be prosthetic but it is actually characteristic of Austroasiatic languages and is usualy dropped when loan-words . Paul Manansala also kindly provided me with a list of possibly cognate Austronesian words which hint at links between drumming and witches. There is more but I hope this is of interest. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 13 01:11:56 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 01:11:56 +0000 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053575.23782.13754966672589463515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >The interesting aspect of this inscription is that it does not refer to >Sankara directly. Instead, it refers to a Pandiyan official/chieftain who had >a linga installed at the temple in the following words: > >"kAlaTiccaGkaran azakiyaperumALAn2a mazavarAyar pUcittu ikkOyilil >AzrayalimgamAka ezuntaruLuvitta cokkan2Arkku.." > >Here a person has been named kAlaTiccaGkaran (Sankara of Kaladi). If we take >this person to be the father of azakiyaperumAL, the mazavarAyar, then the >father should have received the name probably towards the end of the 12th >century. This is fascinating information. However, I am unclear on the reason behind the interpretation you propose. I presume the rest of the inscription provides the details. >All these make one wonder if the veLLALas in the 12th century knew what >Sankara and Manu thought of the zUdras? Or was it just syncretism on the part >of kALaTiccaGkaran2's parents to name their son after Sankara of Kaladi? Or >was there a compromise between advaita and zaivasiddhAnta? Or had the idea of >Sankara as an avatAra of dakSiNAmUrti become so popular as to lead to his >acceptance even by devout zaivite veLLALas who would otherwise be opposed to >advaita? Coincidentally, western tirunelvEli region is also where we find >potiyil, the original locus of the dakSiNAmUrti cult. All interesting questions, no doubt, but the only one that can be explored based on proper evidence is the issue of the relationship between advaita and zaivasiddhAnta. This would be the mAnasollAsa attributed to Surezvara. The other questions would call for too many suppositions to be answered well one way or the other. Vidyasankar From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM Sat Nov 13 09:26:51 1999 From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 09:26:51 +0000 Subject: When did the gods become literate? In-Reply-To: <19991112191514.11535.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053593.23782.14846631245833135852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Julio writes : > >Let me make an observation here. The culture of Andhra and Tamil Nadu, >which are close to one another are not very different - in terms of >dress, food, social customs etc > >But the difference between Lanka (SinhAla) and Tamil Nadu is quite >distinct. And if interaction between India and Lanka were as you >claim, such a distinction cannot be supported. And when Hinduism >gained ascendency in Tamil Nadu, that should've reflected in Lanka too. But >Sinhalese have remained stauch Bauddhas and even seem to consider Hinduism >as an alien religion. The Sinhalese ruling class, at least, came from North India and spoke the same language as the North Indian peoples. >>We know very little about how Buddhism spread to other parts of South Asia. >>But there were certainly other missionaries -referred to in various >>inscriptions and literary sources. > >But I think the case should be pretty obvious atleast in India itself. It is. > >>He refers to the Colas and Paa.n.diyas in exactly the same way. > >But for some reason, he didn't consider them to be important enough >to send his son there. So why Lanka? Perhaps he thought of the Colas and Paa.n.diyas as foreigners in a way that the Sinhalese were not. Perhaps there was no royal invitation from there. Perhaps he did send others of his presumed hundreds of sons but they are not recorded because the Buddhist literature from those areas is lost or because they were not as successful. Perhaps the legend of Mahinda is a later invention to account for the success of Buddhism on the island. > >>On the contrary, travel by sea was much faster and easier at the right time >>of the year; so the travel distance from Patna to Ceylon may well have been >>much less than that to, say, Ujjain. > >What? From Bihar to Ceylon? To get to Ceylon from Bihar you'd have >to first cross Ujjain itself. You do as the Chinese pilgrim Fa hsien did. You sail down the Ganges from Patna. Lance Cousins OXFORD, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk or selwyn at dtn.ntl.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sat Nov 13 07:12:45 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 10:12:45 +0300 Subject: dakinis Message-ID: <161227053580.23782.2876445119296563071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Hodge, in reference to "links between drumming and witches" these verses from the MahAbhArata will probably be of interest to you. In the Book VIII KarNa, while describing the "immoral" practices of the land of Aratta, his enemy Shalya's homeland, mentions a rAkSasI (which stands here, perhaps, for a "witch" or non-Aryan priestess) who gives a start to an orgiastic Arattan feast in the city of Shakala on every 14th night of the "dark" fortnight - by way of singing and BEATING A DRUM (here - dundubhi): tatra sma rAkSasI gAti sadA kRSNa caturdazIm/ nagare zakale sphIte Ahatya nizi dundubhim// kadA vA ghoSikA gathAH punar gAsyanti zAkale/ gavyasya tRptA mAMsasya pItvA gauDaM mahAsavam// Mbh VIII.30.29-30 Please note that in the second verse, which is, most probably, a "quotation" from "the rAkSasI's song" ("When will they start again their noicy songs in Shakala..."), the root *ghoS-* is present (which you have mentioned in connection with *ghoSiNI*). I am inclined to see in the archaic ritual practices of the Arattans, described and condemned in the Mbh VIII.30, the heritage of a "late-Harappan" substratum. Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Sat, 13 Nov 99 09:27 +0300 MSK From rrickard at EASYNET.CO.UK Sat Nov 13 11:04:18 1999 From: rrickard at EASYNET.CO.UK (Ruth Rickard) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 11:04:18 +0000 Subject: Connection between Yama, yamI and yamunA In-Reply-To: <19991107204752.83788.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053583.23782.4393688147578991668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is some interesting information on the origins of Yama in the Prolegomena to The Vajrabhairava Tantras by Bulcsu Siklos, published in the Buddhica Britannica series by the Institute of Buddhist Studies in 1996. Ruth Rickard >Can anybody please explain the relationship between Yama, yamI and yamunA? > > I get the impression that in Vedic literature, yama and yamunA were twins >who were the children of vivasvAn. However, in Post Vedic literature, yama >became the God of death and yamI became the twin of the God of death while >yamunA was/became the name of the river. > >My questions are >1. Is this interpretation correct? If not, please correct the record >2. What is the connection between yamunA and yamI?How did the river get it's >name? > > >Looking forward to your answers, >Regards, >Krishna > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From chouhan at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Nov 13 16:18:21 1999 From: chouhan at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Chouhan Electronic Informatics P Ltd.) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 11:18:21 -0500 Subject: bhaTa and naTa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053588.23782.15632165904469336253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear James, Id love to see your work... will it be possible Ramesh Singh Chouhan, MD PhD At 03:26 PM 11/13/99 +0100, you wrote: >Hello All, > >I am editing a c.14th century Sanskrit text, the khecarIvidyA of AdinAtha, >for my DPhil thesis. It concerns tantric and haThayogic practises, >particularly the khecarImudrA. > >There is a section in the text which describes physical problems that may >arise for the yogin who aspires to khecarIsiddhi. These are grouped into two >types, those of bhaTa, "mercenary" or "soldier", and those of naTa, "dancer" >or "actor". I have not found a similar pairing of these names elsewhere. >They perhaps refer to the two different types of sAdhaka to whom the >problems can occur. > >Monier-Williams (1899: 525) lists naTabhaTikAvihAra and naTabhaTikA, both >meaning "temple of NaTa and BhaTa'', as Buddhist terms, with NaTa and BhaTa >being two brothers who had the temple built. > >In HindI, bhaT can mean "misfortune, curse" (McGregor 1993: 757) while the >Sanskrit root naT can mean "to hurt or injure" (M-W ibid.). > >Does anyone on the list know more about M-W's two Buddhist brothers or have >any other ideas about bhaTa and naTa? > >Yours, > >James Mallinson, > >Balliol College, >Oxford. > > C.E.I From jim at RAWLINGSFARM.DEMON.CO.UK Sat Nov 13 14:26:56 1999 From: jim at RAWLINGSFARM.DEMON.CO.UK (James Mallinson) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 15:26:56 +0100 Subject: bhaTa and naTa Message-ID: <161227053586.23782.3402308052997106188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello All, I am editing a c.14th century Sanskrit text, the khecarIvidyA of AdinAtha, for my DPhil thesis. It concerns tantric and haThayogic practises, particularly the khecarImudrA. There is a section in the text which describes physical problems that may arise for the yogin who aspires to khecarIsiddhi. These are grouped into two types, those of bhaTa, "mercenary" or "soldier", and those of naTa, "dancer" or "actor". I have not found a similar pairing of these names elsewhere. They perhaps refer to the two different types of sAdhaka to whom the problems can occur. Monier-Williams (1899: 525) lists naTabhaTikAvihAra and naTabhaTikA, both meaning "temple of NaTa and BhaTa'', as Buddhist terms, with NaTa and BhaTa being two brothers who had the temple built. In HindI, bhaT can mean "misfortune, curse" (McGregor 1993: 757) while the Sanskrit root naT can mean "to hurt or injure" (M-W ibid.). Does anyone on the list know more about M-W's two Buddhist brothers or have any other ideas about bhaTa and naTa? Yours, James Mallinson, Balliol College, Oxford. From rrickard at EASYNET.CO.UK Sat Nov 13 17:15:04 1999 From: rrickard at EASYNET.CO.UK (Ruth Rickard) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 17:15:04 +0000 Subject: Connection between Yama, yamI and yamunA Message-ID: <161227053590.23782.17260628566272170909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote a little unclearly: right,leftThere is some interesting information on the origins of Yama in the Prolegomena to The Vajrabhairava Tantras by Bulcsu Siklos, published in the Buddhica Britannica series by the Institute of Buddhist Studies in 1996. The Prolegomena is of course the introduction to the text, in the the book entitled "The Vajrabhairava Tantras". There is a further article by Dr. Siklos, "The Evolution of the Buddhist Yama" in Volume IV of the Buddhist Forum, published by the School of Oriental and African Studies, London in 1996 which I think would better provide the information requested. Ruth Rickard >Can anybody please explain the relationship between Yama, yamI and yamunA? > > I get the impression that in Vedic literature, yama and yamunA were twins >who were the children of vivasvAn. However, in Post Vedic literature, yama >became the God of death and yamI became the twin of the God of death while >yamunA was/became the name of the river. > >My questions are >1. Is this interpretation correct? If not, please correct the record >2. What is the connection between yamunA and yamI?How did the river get it's >name? > > >Looking forward to your answers, >Regards, >Krishna > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1402 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Nov 13 23:59:34 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 18:59:34 -0500 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053597.23782.14830964333117100520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 11/12/99 7:11:26 PM Central Standard Time, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > > >Here a person has been named kAlaTiccaGkaran (Sankara of Kaladi). If we > take > >this person to be the father of azakiyaperumAL, the mazavarAyar, then the > >father should have received the name probably towards the end of the 12th > >century. > > This is fascinating information. However, I am unclear on the reason behind > the interpretation you propose. I presume the rest of the inscription > provides the details The interpretation of the name is based on the Tamil naming convention found in the inscriptions. Brahmin names can have four parts, i.e., place name, gotra name, father's given name, and the person's given name. In addition, if a person has an alias, it will be the fifth component. For non-brahmins, we do not have the gotra name. The place name is also optional. The component "mazavarAyan2" can be considered a title (or an alias because it follows "An2a") given to important officials or chieftains who are not brahmins. Brahmin title will be brahmarAyan2, brahmAtirAjan2, etc. clearly distinguishable from non-brahmin titles. We do not have the name of the natal village as part of the name based on the information elsewhere in the inscription. So the first part kAlaTiccaGkaran2 must be the father's given name (in the same manner as persons being named Kasi Viswanathan even today) and azakiyaperumAL must be the son's given name. Given the important position held by this azakiyaperumAL in 1235-36 AD, it is likely he would have been born ca. 1200 AD if not earlier. That means, his father must have been born ca. 1180 if not earlier. This means that obviously kAlaTiccaGkaran2's parents were contemporaries of cEkkizAr, author of periyapurANam. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Nov 14 00:05:16 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 19:05:16 -0500 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053599.23782.9077212489556894816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 11/12/99 7:11:26 PM Central Standard Time, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > >All these make one wonder if the veLLALas in the 12th century knew what > >Sankara and Manu thought of the zUdras? Or was it just syncretism on the > part > >of kALaTiccaGkaran2's parents to name their son after Sankara of Kaladi? Or > >was there a compromise between advaita and zaivasiddhAnta? Or had the idea > of > >Sankara as an avatAra of dakSiNAmUrti become so popular as to lead to his > >acceptance even by devout zaivite veLLALas who would otherwise be opposed > to > >advaita? Coincidentally, western tirunelvEli region is also where we find > >potiyil, the original locus of the dakSiNAmUrti cult. > > All interesting questions, no doubt, but the only one that can be explored > based on proper evidence is the issue of the relationship between advaita > and zaivasiddhAnta. This would be the mAnasollAsa attributed to Surezvara. > The other questions would call for too many suppositions to be answered well > one way or the other. > On the first of the many questions I raised, I think now we have reason to say that these veLLALas like cEkkizAr probably did not have a clear picture of what the appellation "zUdra" meant. In his story of iLaiyAn2kuTimARa nAyan2Ar, cEkkizAr first calls him a zUdra in the following lines. .... nampu vAymaiyin2 nITu cUttira naRkulam cey tavattin2Al impar JAlam viLakkin2Ar iLaiyAn2kuTip pati mARan2Ar (per. 440.3-4) Note the praise of zUdras as those speaking the truth. Note the contrast with the story of satyakAma jAbAla. A few verses later, he says in2n2avARu vaLam curuGkavum empirAn2 ilAiyAn2kuTi man2n2an2 mARan2..... (per. 446.1-2) Here mARan2, who had been called zUdra earlier, is called the man2n2an (king) of ilAiyAn2kuTi. mARan2 must have been a chieftain at least if he were to be called "man2n2an2". Moreover, cEkkizAr was a veLLALa and a minister! What would Manu say about zUdra being the king's adviser? There is another interesting inscription (during the reign of Uttama Chola) in Govindaputtur in Tiruchi Dt. According to the epigraphist Srinivasa Rao, "In the Sanskrit portion with the inscription begins, the donor is said to have been a member of the fourth caste and a personification of all the good qualities, with whose valour the king was greatly pleased and conferrred on him the title 'vikrama chOLa mahArAja'." This chief builds a temple and gives 700 coins to the brahmin sabha. In another inscription he creates an endowment which included feeding 50 brahmins! I do not know if these match what the zUdras are supposed to be according to Manu. I have heard that there are literally thousands and thousands of unpublished estampages of Tamil/South Indian inscriptions at the ASI, Mysore. If those inscriptions get published, I am sure they will add significantly to our knowledge regarding religion, society, history, etc. in South India. Regards S. Palaniappan From selva_selvakumar at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 14 01:35:33 1999 From: selva_selvakumar at HOTMAIL.COM (Selva Selvakumar) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 20:35:33 -0500 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053602.23782.2659689735095813118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [cut] >For non-brahmins, we >do not have the gotra name. The place name is also optional. The component >"mazavarAyan2" can be considered a title (or an alias because it follows [cut] Many communitites of non-brahmins have 'kOttiram' (same as gotra).In fact sEkkizaar is itself a kOttiram. The tamil word kOttiram comes from kO, meaning 'head' 'leader', 'king'. Many kOttiram names end in 'kizaar', 'Uraar' etc.Examples are cenkunRam kizaar, sEkkizaar, cEtUraar, pukazUraar etc. Selva Selvakumar >Regards >S. Palaniappan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sun Nov 14 04:08:52 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 23:08:52 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: SEARCHING FOR BABU GOGINENI] Message-ID: <161227053604.23782.11949946592772817370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will appreciate if some one can help this person directly. -------- Original Message -------- From: SKEPTICMAG at aol.com Subject: SEARCHING FOR BABU GOGINENI To: a018967t at bc.seflin.org SEARCHING FOR BABU GOGINENI Do you know where I can reach an Indian author by the name of Babu Gogineni, who submitted an article to Skeptic some time ago on Sai Baba? We are planning on running the article but I cannot find the contact information on the author. Thank you. Michael Shermer From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Sat Nov 13 22:52:42 1999 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 99 23:52:42 +0100 Subject: bhaTa and naTa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053595.23782.9646955417292880600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 03:26:56PM +0100, James Mallinson wrote: > > There is a section in the text which describes physical > problems that may arise for the yogin who aspires to > khecarIsiddhi. These are grouped into two types, those of > bhaTa, "mercenary" or "soldier", and those of naTa, "dancer" or > "actor". I have not found a similar pairing of these names > "elsewhere. They perhaps refer to the two different types of > "sAdhaka to whom the problems can occur. > > Monier-Williams (1899: 525) lists naTabhaTikAvihAra and > naTabhaTikA, both meaning "temple of NaTa and BhaTa'', as > Buddhist terms, with NaTa and BhaTa being two brothers who had > the temple built. > > In HindI, bhaT can mean "misfortune, curse" (McGregor 1993: > 757) while the Sanskrit root naT can mean "to hurt or injure" > (M-W ibid.). > > Does anyone on the list know more about M-W's two Buddhist > brothers or have any other ideas about bhaTa and naTa? For na.tabha.tikaa it seems Monier-Williams depends on B?htlingk/Roth's Sanskrit dictionary; in vol. 4, s.v. na.ta you'll find some references. For the Azokaavadaana reference there see PaMzupradaanaavadaana, Divyaavadaana No 26 ed. Cowell/Neill, p. 349: Mathuraayaam ... Na.to Bha.taz ca dvau bhraatarau shresh.thinau bhavishyata.h | tau Rurumu.n.daparvate vihaaraM pratish.thaapayishyata.h | tasya Na.tabha.tiketi sa.mj~naa bhavishyati... Na.tabha.tikaa is mentioned again on p. 356 (same Avadaana) and in the Ku.naalaavadaana, same ed., p. 385. See also Edgerton, BHSD, s.v. na.tabha.tikaa. Sujitkumar Mukhopadhyaya reads in his edition of the same in all cases Urumu.n.da- instead of Rurumu.n.da- (The Azokaavadaana. Ed. by S. Mukhopadhyaya. New Delhi 1963). Na.ta and Bha.ta seem to be the founders of a monastery near Mathura. Prima facie, I think, it will be difficult to connect these names with the Hathayoga terms. Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar der Universitaet Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 14 14:04:03 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 99 06:04:03 -0800 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053609.23782.573225576250108366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I have heard that there are literally thousands and thousands of >unpublished estampages of Tamil/South Indian inscriptions at the ASI, >Mysore. If those inscriptions get published, I am sure they will add >significantly to our knowledge regarding religion, society, history, etc. >in South India. Dr. R. Nagaswamy told me that during his Directorship of State dept. of archaeology, he tried to convince the Mysore officials for giving permission to print 2000 inscriptions, 100 each by 20 epigraphist. But due to dept. rivalries, it did not happen; He said that all of these precious inscription copies will be extinct soon due to humidity, decay of the paper etc., In Mysore, there are 25000 tamil inscriptions, acc. to Dr. Nagasamy. The sad part is inscriptions themselves in-situ are lost due to kumbabhishekams, painting over, building collapse, or old temple sites taken for other purposes (by politicians, increasing populations). Iravatham Mahadevan said that he has located the oldest inscriptions from Kerala. These estempages helped him to discover these tamil brahmi treasure because partly the Edakkal cave inscriptions on site have been destroyed by vandalism, tourism etc., Thiru. Mahadevan told that there are 60 to 100 thousand Tamil inscriptions unpublished/unedited from 5-14th centuries. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 14 16:29:57 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 99 08:29:57 -0800 Subject: Q: mAyA Message-ID: <161227053614.23782.11682607919271990739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< But if we accept the Gathic form as related to Skt. mAyA, yes, it is very much possible that it could have been borrowed from Indic. The fact that the Avestan forms humAiiA and humaiiaka appear to be proper names may support the case for borrowing from Indic, since proper names do migrate easily. In one case the person named is an enemy of the religion of MazdA, but in the other case it is the name of a daughter of a Zoroastrian. Unfortunately, here again the evidence is not clear-cut. In general, Ganesan, I do not think that your view is incompatible with Michael Witzel's [who does concede the possiblity of borrowing from Dravidian, though at an early date which is problematic from MW's point of view]. The only point that I would add is that mAyA [and mAyin] in the RV has strong associations with magic [and magician]. Is there a similar association in Dravidian? If we fail to deal with this association of mAyA and magic, we will not do justice to the RV evidence. >>> For mAyA and magic associations in Dravidian, pl. look into the Tamil root verb, mAy-. Both mAy-tal and mAy-ttal mean "to hide as in magic, to vanish, to make things disppear, to destroy". P. T. Srinivasa Aiyangar, Pre-Aryan Tamil culture, 1926, p. 29: (This is reprinted also by AES, Delhi, 1985) "MAyA is a word which occurs in the Vedic mantras; there it does not possess the meaning of MUlaprakRiti, chaotic matter, that which is not sat, not asat. In the mantras it merely means the woder-working power exhibited by Indra and other gods. Gradually MAyA came to be specially associated with ViSNu;in the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna,the incarnate Vishnu, speaks of mama maayaa duratyayaa,'my MAyA difficult to transcend.' So MAyA came to mean the power, the magic might wielded by the Supreme Vishnu in creating, and substaining the universe and this is still the meaning of MAyA in Vaishnava tradition. In the zaiva schools MAyA became the wife of ziva, the mighty mother of the universe, being Izvara's power embodied in manifested matter. In the Advaita schools , she became identified with PrakRiti, matter, which is a reality to embodied beings and vanishes without leaving a trace behind before the vision of him who has seen the light of AtmA. Hence Advaitiis explain it by the jingle, yaa maa saa maayaa, who is not, she is mAyA; this ingenious and impossible derivation could have been invented only, after that incomparable philosopher, zaGkarAchArya, definitely and finally connected the word with that which exists as a phenomenon but does not exist as a noumenon. The older meaning of the word, from which this meaning has arisen, was wonder, astonishment, *power of magic*, cannot be derived from any Sanskrit root; but Tamil possesses a root that exactly suits the word and that is *mAy*, to be astonished, to vanish from sight. I am sure that on a careful study conducted according to the fundamental principles of modern etymological science, many Sanskrit words will be found to be borrowed from those of the languages which prevailed in India in the early Iron age." Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Sun Nov 14 09:09:28 1999 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 99 10:09:28 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: SEARCHING FOR BABU GOGINENI] In-Reply-To: <382E35D4.BE5AAC94@bc.seflin.org> Message-ID: <161227053607.23782.10250166685654862237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Babu Gogineni's heads IHEU and is London based. You can reach him at: babu at iheu.org Also, you can check IHEU's web site: http://www.iheu.org Regards, Sreenivas From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 14 21:22:15 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 99 13:22:15 -0800 Subject: Urgent help requested Message-ID: <161227053619.23782.6736588862794893888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can any kind soul please send me the Samskrt original of the subhAzita which goes as " varameko guNiputro" and ends "tArAgaNo'pica" and translates as: It is better to have one good son than (many/100) useless ones. Just as one sun outshines the whole collection of stars The scholar who will help me out a critical juncture will have his/her puNya increase a 1000-fold... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 14 23:56:30 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 99 15:56:30 -0800 Subject: varam eko guNI putro... Message-ID: <161227053624.23782.14588465614919148998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tim, > >Dear Krishna, > > varam eko guNI putro na ca mUrkhazatAny api/ > ekaz candras tamo hanti na ca tArAgaNo 'pi ca// > >Hope this reaches you before that critical juncture. namo nama: asmin "critical juncture" kSaNe eva bhavata: patram mayA prAptam. bhavataye bhavata: patrAya ca dhanyavAdaprakaTanam kartumicchAmi. Kr*SNa ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU Sun Nov 14 22:28:57 1999 From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 99 16:28:57 -0600 Subject: varam eko guNI putro... In-Reply-To: <19991114212215.90644.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053622.23782.3104882529482143728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Krishna, varam eko guNI putro na ca mUrkhazatAny api/ ekaz candras tamo hanti na ca tArAgaNo 'pi ca// Hope this reaches you before that critical juncture. best, Tim Cahill Cf: antarjvAlA varaM zIghram na ca granthA zatAdhikAH/ (etc.) From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Nov 15 00:22:49 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 99 19:22:49 -0500 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053627.23782.13236879830280660891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 11/13/99 7:36:24 PM Central Standard Time, selva_selvakumar at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > Many communitites of non-brahmins have 'kOttiram' > (same as gotra).In fact sEkkizaar is itself a kOttiram. > The tamil word kOttiram comes from kO, meaning 'head' > 'leader', 'king'. Many kOttiram names end in 'kizaar', > 'Uraar' etc.Examples are cenkunRam kizaar, sEkkizaar, > cEtUraar, pukazUraar etc. The organization of ethnic groups including Tamil non-brahmins into exogamous clans/lineages is well-known. They are called kiLai (among maRavar, pANar, etc.), kUTTam (kavuNTar), kOyil (Chettiar), etc. I do not deny that. I was specifically referring to the brahminical gotras. As for the non-brahmin "gotra" names mentioned above, except cEkkizAr, all others are derivatives of place names. In other words, they indicate the place they were from or where they were landowners originally. cEkkizAr as a veLLALa "gotra" name seems to have an interesting history. It seems to have been just another given name (not an exogamous "gotra" name) as it occurs in the following inscriptions. SII 19, no. 78 ------------------- "cEkkizAn2 cattimalaiyAn2Akiya cOzamuttaraiyan2..." (belongs to Uttama Chola's 3rd year) Obviously, muttaraiyar were not veLLaLas and so here cEkkizAn2 is only a given name. SII 5, no. 473 ------------------ "...puravuvari tiNaikkaLam cEkkizAr coRpaTi" (belongs to Kulottunga I) Here, we have the official designation "puravuvari tiNaikkaLam" (office of revenue accounts) and the given name "cEkkizAr". One cannot expect this to be a "gotra" name since no other component of the usual naming convention is present. This possibly could refer to cEkkizAr of periyapurANam before his promotion as a minister. Only in the following inscription, the status of cEkkizAr as a "gotra" name can even be considered. SII 8, no.226 ----------------- "?cERkizaiyAn2 kayilAya[muTaiyAn2] pUvaNamuTaiyAn2um...cEkkizAn kayilAyan tiruppUvaNamu(u)TaiyAn2um...cEkkizAn kayilAyan tiruppUvaNamu(u)TaiyAn2um..." (belongs to Rajaraja II) In this, two variants are found in the name of the same person. Only if we assume that the correct form of the first component of the name is cEkkizAn2, then one can see a possible lineage name followed bythe father's name and the given name. But even this usage seems to have come into existence only after the poet-minister cEkkizAr became famous since RajarAja II is later than periyapurANam's author. In any case, this type of naming seems to be an exception resulting from the fame of cEkkizAr. Regards S. Palaniappan From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Nov 14 14:51:15 1999 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM.Krishnan) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 99 19:51:15 +0500 Subject: dakinis (was: bones and flesh) Message-ID: <161227053612.23782.7584974557537716180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11/13/99 12:47:00 AM, you wrote: >Hello, Ulrich ! > >My hypothesis in outline is as follows: > >1. The earliest known occurence of the term ".daakinii" is in the >Gangdhar stone found at the site of old ruins in Gangaadhara, 52 miles >SW of Jhalrapatan, Jhalawar State dated 424CE. It especially >emphasizes the shouting and tumultuous noise made by the .daakiniis. >The term may have been use a little earlier as it seems to occur in >the Meat-eating Chapter of the Lankavatara Sutra. > >2. I would link the use of the word .daakinii with the early Gupta >conquest / occupation of the Kalinga area which covered much of the >places inhabited by Austro-asiatic speakers. > >3. The word "gho.sa" is linked almost synonymously with ".daaka". >It should also be noted that the "gho.sinii" who are attendants to >Rudra in the Atharva-veda are the precursors of the .daakiniis. >".Daamarii" is given as alternative for ".daakinii" is several >Tantras. > >4. Traditionally, the derivation of ".daakinii" is supposed to be >..dii (to fly) but this is obviously problematic. In any case the term >is not IE / Sanskritic in origin. If we look at words used for witch >/ shaman / drumming / summoning is NE Indian languages we see: > >BENGALI >..daaka - (vb): shout, call aloud, send for. >..daak[a]: a shout, a loud call. >..daaka: a male shaman, occult practitioner >..daakinii: a female shaman, occult practitioner >..daa'nka: an expert in occult practice >..daa'nkaa: i) a type of drum; ii) the drum beating announcing a >challenge from an occult practitioner. >Etymological Dictionary of Bengali (Sukumar Sen) > >ORIYA >..daaka: 1. a sorcerer 2. loud sound, roaring some, call, summons >..daaki: hourglass-shaped drum >..daakiba: (vb) to call, to summon, to invite, to shout >..daakinii: a sorceress, a witch >..daa'nkinii: a sorceress, a witch >..daa'nkunii: a sorceress, witch >..daa'nkenii: a sorceress, a witch > >HO >..da.mri: wizard >..da.mri era: witch > >SANTALI >..dan: witch > >The root of the word is thus likely to be ".dam" with a IE suffix. >It is probably to be linked also with the ".domba" caste who were >drummers, and with ".damaru", ".damari" etc. >I initially though the nasal in some forms of ".daakinii" above might >be prosthetic but it is actually characteristic of Austroasiatic >languages and is usualy dropped when loan-words . Paul Manansala >also kindly provided me with a list of possibly cognate Austronesian >words which hint at links between drumming and witches. > >There is more but I hope this is of interest. > >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge > > Dear Mr.Hodge, There is a word in Tamil 'takkaNangku/ takkaNi'. She is an attendent pUtam (sorceress, witch - it could also mean an aborigine maid) of Goddess UmA. Even Godess UmA is called takkayiNi/takshAyiNi in prakrit/sanskrit, since she was the daughter of takkaN/takshaN. 'takkaNam' is of course south in Tamil. takkaNangku can afflict a male and lead to bodily sufferings. You need to do orderly penance to come out of the sufferings. I don't know whether it would be related to your view point here. On the other hand, if you belive the word dakini is related to 'damaru - drum', then why only Bengali, Oriya, Ho and Santali? I quote below a number of words in Tamil related to the same idea. One can perhaps do the same in Telugu, Kannada and others. I believe the origin of these words are through imitative sounds obtained by hitting a drum. Even the English word 'drum' (it is often a practice in Indo - European to add r in the second position by changing 'du' to 'dru') is related to your damaru. I believe many un-related languages might have similar words arising out of imitating sounds ultimately.. To attribute the origins of such words to one single language (Austro-asiatic) may not be correct. These imitating sounds could have been part of a sound baggage carried by early man before languages got identified into separate families. Now the tamil words: tampaTTam/tampaTTai - drum tamputal - hitting tamakan2 - ironsmith (since he hits the heated iron to form various products of smithy) tamarukam - also called as uTukkai, small hour-glass shaped drum in the hands of performers. Even Lord siva, in the form of naTarAja has tamarukam tamAram - Big drum tamukku - also called as paRai, drum, (if any announcements or orders are to made in villages, even today, one beats the tamukku and the message is passed in loud voice.). The term 'paRai' had also caused many unfortunate caste problems, since the drummers caste was called paRaiyars. tATan2am - beating a drum to a certain beat. It is also a gesture in 'barata nATTiyam' dance. taTAri - a type of drum tANTavam - dance with jumping movements performed by Lord sivA (naTarAjA). tiTum - a type of drum tuTi - a type of uTukkai, a drum ( tuTikkUttu / tuTiyATal , a dance performed by Lord Muruga along with seven women to the accompaniment of tuTi); tuTi drum is also performed before the war. tuTumai - also a drum toNTakam - the drum in the hilly region, toNTacci - drummer woman, another caste name, Sangkam literature clearly assigns 5 type of drums for the five regions of life. Each type of drum is to accompany each type of harp; there is also each large class of paN (equivalent to modern rAgA in South Indian music) assigned to these five regions. toNTu toNtu - repeating drum sound tappu - one type of paRai (drum). This is also called tappai, tappumELam etc. ( there is also a special and elegant group dance called tappATTam in which tappu is used for drumming by various participants.) tapu tapu - imitative sound rendering to indicate any movement with sound tapaLAm - this is also a drum (today it is called 'tapEla' - often used in Hindustani concerts There are many such drums with various shapes and sounds; unfortunately, modern India is loosing many of them with practitioners hard to come by. Rock and Pop is taking over :-) with regards, RM.Krishnan (I hope I have sticked to accepted transliteration convention) From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Nov 14 20:01:26 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 99 20:01:26 +0000 Subject: Special numbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053617.23782.17165172371354959493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Jonathan Silk wrote: > well, of course there are 404 diseases in Buddhist texts... Oh? Didn't know that. Are they listed? Where is this? -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 15 12:47:03 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 04:47:03 -0800 Subject: oDDiyAna Message-ID: <161227053645.23782.2133612822455628049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Hodge, In the beautiful book on maNDala from Shambala publications, I remember seeing Tibetan maNDala made similar to what the Saiva Sivachariyar priests do in their rituals at homes and temples. I think there is mention of this in that book also. Pl. check the works on tamil saiva siddhanta by H. Brunner etal., of the French school of saivasiddhanta. Also, R. Davis, Ritual in an oscillating universe. For tantric worship among Tamil Smartas, take a look at D. R. Brooks' writings. Of course, the Tirumantiram in tamil, and tamil siddhar traditions (Zvelebil has written on them) and saiva aagamas will shed more light. The Orissan material and Southern material, in tamil and sanskrit, should both be included for a comprehensive analysis of tantra origins and interactions. There is a famous .dAkinii, maNimekhalaa in Tibet; Tamil possesses the only buddhist epic that survived in Indiam - maNimEkalai... Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ThomasBurke at AOL.COM Mon Nov 15 11:00:52 1999 From: ThomasBurke at AOL.COM (Thomas C, Burke) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 06:00:52 -0500 Subject: Email address of Usha R. Jain Message-ID: <161227053640.23782.1076107436490100012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The e-mail address of Usha R. Jain is ujain at socrates.berkeley.edu From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 15 17:46:12 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 09:46:12 -0800 Subject: Buddhism - conceptual doubts Message-ID: <161227053654.23782.7651202047152971338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sergei Schmalz writes : >we identify objects not by their qualities and attributes alone, but >rather by their application. You've missed the point. The main point is that you're not able to identify what the thing in itself is, but that you're only able to identify it with its attributes or something in relation to it - like linking it to its application - saying that a ring is something one wears on one's finger. Anyway if you do not wear that ring on your finger and lay it on the desk, does it cease to be a ring? The point is not that you've to express it to somebody what the thing is, but whether you yourself know what it is. What you are saying is like, when I ask you who you are, you identify yourself with your name, as the son of your parents, as husband of your wife, as the father of your children, with your position in the place you work in etc You can only tell me what you are in relation to something else, but still you cannot tell me what you - yourself - are! Such is the lakshanam of mAyam! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Nov 15 08:47:04 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 09:47:04 +0100 Subject: Email address of Usha R. Jain Message-ID: <161227053632.23782.15221088523825314828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the net, would any of you happen to have the email address to Usha R. Jain at the University of California? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From J.Napier at UNSW.EDU.AU Mon Nov 15 00:29:07 1999 From: J.Napier at UNSW.EDU.AU (John Napier) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 11:29:07 +1100 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227053629.23782.2028750096881395537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, does anybody have contact details for Wayne Howard, author of Samvedic Chant, and Vedic recitation in Varanasi? Thanks in advance, john napier From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Mon Nov 15 10:30:37 1999 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 11:30:37 +0100 Subject: Wilson and the Padma Purana? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053634.23782.12403452166197509214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The list of Nag Publishers I have gives the following information: > "Matsya Mahapurana (Text with English translation and notes) -- > N. S. Singh". Are you really sure that this work is by Wilson? > > Peter Wyzlic Dear Peter Wyzlic, I have here before me the first volume of the 2-volume edition of the Matsya Purana published by Nag Publishers (First Edition, 1983). As far as I understand, N.S. Singh is the publisher, but the translator is H.H. Wilson. At least the preface was written by him. But "Irren ist menschlich", so that I can be well wrong. Your ever well-wisher, Sergei Schmalz. From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Mon Nov 15 10:51:56 1999 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 11:51:56 +0100 Subject: Buddhism - conceptual doubts In-Reply-To: <19991111180837.32128.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053637.23782.1476657524294497602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Take any object - let's take a gold ring. > > What's it? > It is a ring. > > But ring is just a word, an appelation - if we'd named it 'zero' > instead of ring, you'd right now be saying it's zero. > > So what's it then? > It's round and with a hole in it. > > Even here you're only describing its features and qualities, but not > itself. Besides this there're a lot of other things which are round > with a hole in it, which may not be called ring. > > It is a piece of gold. > > So what's gold? > > Gold is an element - yellow in colour. > > So aren't there other elements which are yellow in colour? And even > here you're only describing its qualities and not itself - the thing > in itself - what's it? > > Even if you say the object is round, with a hole, an element, yellow > in colour, still there's a chance that there's something which fits > all these descriptions which might be called something else. > > And more important point is that whatever you say of it - round, with > a hole, element, yellow etc - are but descriptions of it and does not > explain the thing in itself. > > And such is the case with all objects in the world - you can only > describe objects with qualities and attributes - but not the thing in > itself. Even if these descriptions are subjected to further scrutiny, > they themselves will lead to something else - but you can never > explain the thing in itself. It's beyond knowledge. That's why all > conceptions are empty. To this I have a very simple comment: we identify objects not by their qualities and attributes alone (as You try to do in Your example), but rather by their APPLICATION. Your example: a golden ring. I call it a ring, because I use it as a ring and not as a pencil. Qualities (like golden, round, etc.) are a secondary level, meant to specify more clealy what kind of ring is it. The primary level is viniyoga - application, function. It's quite simple to understand, isn't it? As soon as I tell to someone about the application of an object one immediately understands what is being spoken about. Your ever well-wisher, Sergei Schmalz. From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Mon Nov 15 11:15:59 1999 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 12:15:59 +0100 Subject: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham"/ I In-Reply-To: <199911091000.LAA24512@mail.fto.de> Message-ID: <161227053642.23782.9415599576745106786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > further i would have a question to the instrumental Form of "aham": > maya. > > Does this instrumental Form from aham "maya" have any > etymology relation to the substantiv "maya = illusion"? One more note. I have learnt the word "maayaa" as a compound word consisting of "maa" ("not" - the prohibitive particle) and "yaa" ("that" - relative pronoun, feminine), which then means "that which is not". Just the opposite of "satyam" = "sat"+"yam" (that which is true). Thus, I am quite unsure that "mayaa", the instrumental case of "aham", has to do something with "maayaa". Your ever well-wisher. Sergei Schmalz. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Nov 15 11:17:50 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 12:17:50 +0100 Subject: SV: Query: Etymology of sanskrit "aham"/ I Message-ID: <161227053651.23782.7727854589676228203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > One more note. > I have learnt the word "maayaa" as a compound word consisting of > "maa" ("not" - the prohibitive particle) and "yaa" ("that" - relative > pronoun, feminine), which then means "that which is not". Just the opposite > of "satyam" = "sat"+"yam" (that which is true). Sergei, that is a "folk etymology". maayaa has nothing to do with maa or yaa. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 15 23:16:01 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 15:16:01 -0800 Subject: ( Advice for Sergei)(Was:Buddhism - conceptual doubts) Message-ID: <161227053656.23782.16070280321391180719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My dear Sergei, I don't think you've been around very long on this net As a veteran here, please allow me to give you some advise about do's and don'ts....there are some people here who know nothing and personify the old adage about empty vessels making the most noise...The point is if you respond to any of their posts, they will take it upon themselves to write and fight and bite you in just about each and every way. As Kabir the fanous poet put it very succintly "When the elephant passes, the dogs bark"..So, when you see these creatures bark, please don't throw them a bone by replying to their stuff..there is a good chance they will force you to throw them more bones leading to 200K messages. I think you are a professional Indologist who must be taking his stuff very seriously..alas not everybody here is the same way. One of the geniuses who writes looong meaningless posts is the guy who's said: >You've missed the point. The main point is that you're not able to >identify what the thing in itself is, but that you're only able to >identify it with its attributes or something in relation to it - like >linking it to its application - saying that a ring is something one wears >on one's finger. Anyway if you do not wear that ring on your >finger and lay it on the desk, does it cease to be a ring?>> My only answer to this is: don't know about rings on fingers but a leash would do fine for a certain kind of an animal..or rather a leash is useful when around the neck of certain creatures... Sergei et al, Please remember the old subhAzitam: anAhuta: pravizati apr*STho bahubhAzate avizvAse vizvasiti mUDhacetA narAdhama:|| since you know Samskr*t and the said narAdhama: also claims to be knowing samskr*t( which he calls samskr*tam)there is no need to translate the subhAzitam... alam ati vistAreNa... Wishing you the best with your research... Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Mon Nov 15 13:43:01 1999 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 15:43:01 +0200 Subject: None In-Reply-To: <199911150029.LAA08513@sam.comms.unsw.EDU.AU> Message-ID: <161227053648.23782.5532514504300472030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hi, > > does anybody have contact details for Wayne Howard, author of >Samvedic Chant, >and Vedic recitation in Varanasi? > >Thanks in advance, > >john napier Dr. Wayne Howard 309 Shirley Ave. Winona, MS 38967 USA No e-mail as far as I know. Regards Klaus Klaus Karttunen Institute for Asian and African Studies Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094 From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Tue Nov 16 00:01:48 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 16:01:48 -0800 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053662.23782.5652530953912745080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > The interpretation of the name is based on the Tamil > naming convention found > in the inscriptions. Brahmin names can have four > parts, i.e., place name, > gotra name, father's given name, and the person's > given name. Dr SP has made a very persuasive and indeed fascinating argument. I do however have one question and that is to do with onomastics. Is the type of name <> common in the Tamil epigraphic record or even literature? Let's consider the name kAsivisvanAtan for a moment. It is basically an analogical example. As a name it primarily serves to distinguish that deity from other visvanAtan's such as those of tenkAsi and other places. The onomastics in such an example as kAsivisvanAtan involves the name, the whole name and nothing but the name of the deity. The entire name in this case is atomic or one indivisible unit. That is why a name such as tenkAsivisvanAtan is hardly to be found. In the time frame in question, whenever a person was named after another, he either took the distinguished predecessor's personal name or the name(s) he was known by. It does not seem to have been common practice to qualify the predecessor's name with his village name. For example, after AcArya Ramanuja, any number of people were named after him. They usually were called RAmAnuja or emperumAnAr but none was called perumputUr RAmAnuja. When one of these had to be distinguished from the AcArya RAmAnuja, the gotra came in handy. For example, AtrEya RAmAnuja as opposed to the AcArya RAmAnuja. At any rate, when a boy was named RAmAnuja, no one would think the boy was named after Lakshmana, rAma's brother. Now in the context of the hypothesis in question, if a boy were to be named after the distinguished AcArya, wouldn't it be more expected to call him kAlaDimunivan or something similarly generic in the suffix position rather than kAlaDiccankaran. The latter i.e., personal name after place name as in kAlaDiccankaran is a possibility I guess only if there was a need to distinguish the AcArya from another Sankara. But we do not have any record of another distinguished Sankara after whom boys may have been named or do we? Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 16 00:39:55 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 16:39:55 -0800 Subject: gotra in India Message-ID: <161227053665.23782.7204785564770347061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The organization of ethnic groups including Tamil non-brahmins into >exogamous clans/lineages is well-known. They are called kiLai >(among maRavar, pANar, etc.), kUTTam (kavuNTar), kOyil (Chettiar), >etc. I do not deny that. I was specifically referring to the >brahminical gotras. As for the non-brahmin "gotra" names mentioned >above, except cEkkizAr, all others are derivatives of place names. >In other words, they indicate the place they were from or where >they were landowners originally. I understand Dr. Palaniappan's post refers specifically to Dr. Selvakumar's gotra list of cEkkizAr, cEtUrAr, pukazUrAr. Among tamil vellalas and other non-brahmin castes, there are several gotra names that do not derive from place/kOyil names. cEkkizAr is one such exogamous gotra name among the MudaliyArs of ToNDai region, I think M. Bhaktavatsalam, erstwhile CM of TN, was a Cekkizaar. The exogamous tamil gotras are named after some totemic symbols - birds, animals, trees, flowers, vegetables, body parts, etc., We do not understand some gotra names' meanings at all. On vellala gotra names from different regions, an excellent source is P. A. MuttutANDavarAya piLLai's late 19th century commentary on 17th c. cOzamaNDala catakam. (I have it somewhere). K. KiruTTiNacAmi, kUTTamum tirumaNamum, Totem and marriage with special reference to Kongu Vellala, Cennai: MakkaL veLiyITu, 1983, 120 p. Brenda Beck has an M.A. & DPhil thesis at Oxford on these exogamous kulams. Example: among the vellalas of the kongu region, a list of the kulam or kUTTam are: periyan, ceGkaNNan, payiran, kAGkEyan, tOTai, ponnan, azakan, ceGkUn, cETan, cempan, Ati, antuvan, OtALan, cAttantai, kuzAyan, peruGkuTiyAn, pavazan, poruLantai, pUcan, tUran, viziyan, Antai ( Message-ID: <161227053667.23782.9502540968707592930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: >Tamil possesses the only buddhist epic that survived in India - maNimEkalai...< What about A;sva-gho.sa's Buddha-carita and Saundarananda? Or the Padya-cuu.daa-ma.ni (or Siddhaartha-carita) ascribable to Buddha-gho.sa (Madras 1921)? -- aklujkar From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Tue Nov 16 02:22:53 1999 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 18:22:53 -0800 Subject: Buddhist epics in India Message-ID: <161227053670.23782.17214275681551110046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Earlier this message went under the misleading subject heading "oDDiyAna." I am using the opportunity offered by resending to include one more detail] N. Ganesan wrote: >Tamil possesses the only buddhist epic that survived in India - maNimEkalai...< What about A;sva-gho.sa's Buddha-carita and Saundarananda? Or the Padya-cuu.daa-ma.ni (or Siddhaartha-carita) ascribable to Buddha-gho.sa (Madras 1921)? Or ;Siva-svaamin's Kapphi.naabhyudaya? -- aklujkar From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Nov 15 22:44:14 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 23:44:14 +0100 Subject: Report: Intl. Vedic Workshop/Kyoto Message-ID: <161227053674.23782.13652725156700664553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> REPORT: SECOND INTERNATIONAL VEDIC WORKSHOP, Kyoto University, Oct. 30-Nov. 2 1999 Ten years after the first workshop at Harvard, Prof. Yasuke Ikari and his colleagues have organized a very comprehensive and successful update. This meeting was attended by some 75 participants. A brief summary of the proceedings is given below. I order the talks by topic (language, study of words, editions of texts, interpretation of texts, development of the Vedic corpus, Vedic ritual, development of thought) and present them in a roughly historical order. Minoru Hara (Tokyo) gave an introduction to the development of Indology in Japan over the past hundred years or so, and underlined, in this context, the achievements of the first Japanese Vedic scholar, the late Naoshiro Tsuji (Tokyo) whose 100th birthday is celebrated this week. LANGUAGE Frederick Kortlandt (Leiden) traced back a feature of ablaut in the Vedic verb system, the long vowel in the 2nd/3rd sing. of the aorist injunctive, as the earlier state of things in Indo-European times and the starting point of the Vedic system. Leonid Kulikov (Leiden) discussed the unusual (and late) -yet optative, instead of root aorist optative (precative) -yaat, as a separate type of aorist optative formation connected with such forms as aor. gamema. Michael Witzel (Harvard) drew attention to the many levels of substrate languages that preceded the Rgvedic language, from an unknown a Central Asian one to various Indian ones (Para-Munda, then Dravidian, etc.); the usually met with Arya : Dravida scheme is much too simple and misleading. (see last number of EJVS at: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs) STUDY OF WORDS Tatyana Elizarenkova (Moscow) stressed that the pur 'fortress' is seen, in the Rgveda, mostly in negative fashion as that of the enemies and only rarely metaphorically referring to the protection it provides to the Arya; its earliest archaeological correlates are the Ural fortresses (c. 2000 BCE) such as Arkaim and Sintashta. Alexander Lubotsky (Leiden) showed, by careful juxtaposition of linguistic, textual and zoological materials, that Atharvavedic prdaaku-saanu means a snake that has a panther's (prdaaku) skin, probably Russel's viper. Patrick Olivelle (Austin) followed the development of the word and concept of dharma(n) from the Rgveda to Asoka, that is from its early connection with divine kingship to the religious propaganda of Asoka and the community based values of the Dharmasutra texts. EDITIONS OF TEXTS Arlo Griffiths (Leiden) reported on recent fieldwork in Orissa and the discovery of a number of new Paippalada Samhita manuscripts that will, for the first time, allow a critical edition; other texts of the Paipp. tradition (Paddhatis of the Paithinasi GS and the Angirasakalpa also have been filmed for editorial work). Asko Parpola (Helsinki) reported on securing some unique texts of the endangered Jaiminiya Samaveda tradition and editorial work undertaken by him, M. Fujii and W. Howard, of the Uttaragaana and the Jaiminiya Kalpasutra, based on a text that presents the Samans as actually sung, not as learned by heart in Samhita form. The editions will be published in Harvard Oriental Series (for details, see www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm) Yasuke Ikari reported on field work in Kerala as well, this one relating to the almost extinct Vadhula tradition of the Black Yajurveda. Many new MSS of the S'rautasutra and Anubrahmana (anvakhyana) have been found by him, making a first critical edition possible; in addition, the Vadh. Grhyasutra, Pitrmedhasutra and other texts have been secured. Harry Falk (Berlin) re-examined the supposedly critical edition of the Vasistha Dharmasutra made early in this century and showed that the text has undergone a long, and varied evolution, especially during the past 1000 years; a critical edition of the original text is underway. Jost Gippert (Frankfurt) moved to the collection of electronic editions of Vedic (and other IE texts) and reported on and demonstrated various updated retrieval and search systems, including metrical analysis, as represented on his TITUS web site at Frankfurt. Interested scholars can enjoy the benefits of this site after having themselves contributed a Vedic text to the collection. See the web site : http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de ( gippert at em.uni-frankfurt.de) INTERPRETATION OF TEXTS Jared Klein (Athens, Georgia) investigated the various sub-categories of the repetition of fronted words (anaphora) in the elaborate verbal art of the Rgveda inherited from Indo-Iranian Indo-European times. Werner Knobl (Kyoto) presented a very sensitive interpretation of certain metrical irregularities in the Rgveda, intended by the highly trained Vedic poets to convey certain emotions. Toshifumi Goto (Sendai) moved from form to the content of a whole poem, the complex poetry of Vasistha in RV 7.88 and the relationship between the Vasisthas and Agnihotra-like morning rites as well as their stress on Aditya religion. Albrecht Wezler (Hamburg) investigated the reporting of opinions about alternatives of performing rituals in Vedic prose and stressed the importance of this device for which allows to trace the development of rituals and texts (see below). Christopher Minkowski (Cornell) introduced the 17th cent. reinterpretation, by the famous Nilakantha Caturdhara, of certain Rgvedic stanzas in Ramaite fashion, on the heels of Rama worship that swept N. India in the 17th c., something that may have started a trend in various 'modern' reinterpretations of RV stanzas that have their heyday today. DEVELOPMENT OF TEXTS AND THE VEDIC CORPUS The work by A. Parpola and M. Fujii on the development of the Samavedic corpus of the Jaiminiya school and the form of its melodies has been mentioned already. Mislav Jezic (Zagreb) investigated the complex frame stories of the Kausitaki Upanisad, completed at various times, and the oldest case where 5, and then 10 indriya are mentioned that become important in Sankhya. Francois Voegeli (Lausanne/Kyoto) showed the internal cohesion, by referring backwards to earlier descriptions, in the Vadhula S'rautasutra and indicated where the violation of this principle indicates a later reversal of its chapters. Johannes Bronkhorst (Lausanne) surveyed several possible connections between the philosophy of Bhartrhari and his Veda school, the Maitrayaniya of the Black Yajurveda, and found some indication of this in pre-Manu Dharmasastra quotations and the Kautilya Arthasastra. Madhav Deshpande (Ann Arbor) vividly described the competition and quarrels, around 1820 CE, between different Vedic schools and their various subgroups in Maratha time Poona, their various strategies and the measures the Maratha government to restrain such quarrels. VEDIC RITUAL Jan Houben (Leiden) followed up the hints in the Rgveda, especially in the riddle hymn 1.164.37, about the avaantaradiiksaa, the 'rudimentary initiation', and the Pravargya ritual to that of the S'rauta texts. Yasuhiro Tsuchiyama (Sapporo) continued his earlier studies of royal ritual in the Atharvaveda and showed how the abhiseka of S'rauta times is prefigured in some hymns of the Paippalada Samhita. Mieko Kajihara (Harvard/Kyoto) followed up her earlier studies on the concept of the Brahmacarin by an investigation of Paipp. Samh. 20 and Taittiriya Upanisad and indicated the development of a new Samavartana ritual based on Paipp. Samh. / Upanisad sources. Masato Fujii (Kyoto) studied in detail the development of a particular Saman, the gaayatra, and its wording in Jaminiya texts and showed that Vedic melodies were not static at that time in the history of Saman texts. Noshitori Aramaki (Kyoto) followed the development of the sarvamedhasa rite involving the giving up of some wealth, from the Paippalada Atharvaveda to the complete giving up of wealth of the Katha Upanisad. Shingo Einoo (Tokyo) moved into the field of late/post-Vedic ritual by an innovative detailed study of the diiksaa undertaken not only by the Yajamana but increasingly so also by the officiating priests. Hari Govind Ranade (Poona) showed examples of his illustrated dictionary of Vedic ritual (in preparation) covering everything from implements to plans of the offering ground. Jan Houben (Leiden) continued with the visual elements of Vedic ritual by showing a video film of a Pravargya ceremony held at Delhi a few years ago. DEVELOPMENT OF THOUGHT Henk Bodewitz (Leiden) studied the history of classifications of yonder world in the Veda which is based on two different sets of classifications that allow a number of permutations; the location of the world of the ancestors in the nether world is reaffirmed. Albrecht Wezler (Hamburg) discussed, as indicated above, the ways of reporting opinions about alternatives of performing Vedic rituals which amounts in some Vedic prose texts to a quasi-internal monologue; he stressed the importance of this device for the history of dialectics in India. Junko Sakamoto-Goto (Osaka) traced many of the aspects of Janaka's Five Fire Doctrine in S'B back to earlier texts, including that of viraaj in the Rgveda, and offered a re-interpretation of this doctrine. Ryutaro Tsuchida (Tokyo) stressed the importance of a neglected source for the study of the development of Ahimsa, the non-violent behavior of the snataka and householder, and argued against mono-causal explanation of such concepts, so typical of this and the last century. Johannes Bronkhorst (Lausanne) discussed, as indicated, the connection of the thought of Bhartrhari with his Vedic School, the Maitrayaniya. In conclusion, it may be mentioned that we did not spend any time at this conference with the discussion of 'hot topics' such as the so-called 'Aryan invasion' or the 'Sarasvati civilization' (which were mentioned just once in a secondary clause); perhaps much for the better, since we are in need of a much more sophisticated model than that of the usually met with Arya-Dravidian opposition, -- a model that takes all aspects of linguistics, philology, archaeology, anthropometrics, genetics, etc. into account. IN SUM: The organizers of this workshop, Profs. Y. Ikari and M. Fujii of Kyoto University and their assistants, must be congratulated for a very well arranged and pleasant conference and stay. I speak for all participants, I think, in expressing our thanks and admiration for this workshop held in such a productive and congenial way! The proceedings will be published, in due course (but hopefully more quickly, mea culpa, than those of the first workshop) in Opera Minora (HOS). For an update, and for *future* collaborative activities of the Vedic scholars assembled at Kyoto, keep checking the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies (EJVS): http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs and my website: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm MW> ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From tlk at MATH.KU.DK Mon Nov 15 23:15:13 1999 From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 00:15:13 +0100 Subject: Urgent help requested In-Reply-To: <19991114212215.90644.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053659.23782.15703237078971806299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Krishna, > Can any kind soul please send me the Samskrt original of the > subhAzita which goes as > " varameko guNiputro" and ends "tArAgaNo'pica" > > and translates as: > > It is better to have one good son than (many/100) useless ones. > Just as one sun outshines the whole collection of stars I am not sure that this is the precise reference you are seeking, but in the introduction to the Hitopadesa we learn about the king who has 4 sons, all of whom have no interest in learning and are ill- mannered. I am certain that the king there make the statement that one good son endowed with good qualities is better than 100 fools. However, I think he gives an example of how the one moon dispels darkness whereas any number of stars do not. I am sorry but I do not have the sanskrit text at hand. I hope this helps. Sincerely, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 16 10:41:03 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 02:41:03 -0800 Subject: Report: Intl. Vedic Workshop/Kyoto Message-ID: <161227053679.23782.1954327001793649527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Respected Dr. Witzel Thank you for this important information. A few quick Q's From: Michael Witzel "other texts of the Paipp. tradition (Paddhatis of the Paithinasi GS and the Angirasakalpa also have been filmed for editorial work)." VA: Paithinasi GS or Dharmasutra? Are these the same Paddhatis which Durgamohan Bhattacharya mentioned ("Fundamental themes of the Atharvaveda")? Will the complete oral recordings of Paippalada Samhita be used for preparing the critical edition? Any manuscipts of the Agastya Kalpa (mentioned as the Kalpa of Paippaladins in 'Prapancahridaya')? Paippalada Brahamana? Any new manuscripts of the Parisishatas? ___________________ MW: "followed up her earlier studies on the concept of the Brahmacarin by an investigation of Paipp. Samh. 20 and Taittiriya Upanisad" "from the Paippalada Atharvaveda to the complete giving up of wealth of the Katha Upanisad." VA: Any new light on the supposedly Atharvanic origins of the TU and KU? (Eg. "Sumantu and Kashyapa are the seers of the Brahmana and the Aranyaka": Carayaniya Mantrashadhyaya) Thank you in advance for the replies Vishal ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 16 12:10:30 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 04:10:30 -0800 Subject: oDDiyAna Message-ID: <161227053684.23782.95349475715737981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry that I was misled by a book in Tamil. Were the works by Ashvaghosha preserved in India proper? Some scholars doubt whether Padyacudamani is that old. Regards, N. Ganesan N. Ganesan wrote: >Tamil possesses the only buddhist epic that survived in India - maNimEkalai...< What about A;sva-gho.sa's Buddha-carita and Saundarananda? Or the Padya-cuu.daa-ma.ni (or Siddhaartha-carita) ascribable to Buddha-gho.sa (Madras 1921)? -- aklujkar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 16 14:32:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 06:32:29 -0800 Subject: Buddhist epics in India Message-ID: <161227053689.23782.16350417534920261998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is Saundarananda available in full? Or only in fragments just like Buddhacarita? Are these Ashvaghosha works discovered in India or outside of India? Thanks for the info, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Nov 16 15:29:42 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 10:29:42 -0500 Subject: Email Address Message-ID: <161227053691.23782.3884500514297853972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is: A.Griffiths at stu.let.leidenuniv.nl Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. >>> Christian Lee Novetzke 11/16 8:01 AM >>> Can someone pass on Arlo Griffiths' email address? Thanks. Christian Novetzke Columbia University From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 16 09:35:25 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 10:35:25 +0100 Subject: SV: Digital Texts: Tagging Message-ID: <161227053677.23782.9474079955724261194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mahoney, Richard B [SMTP:rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ] skrev 16. november 1999 05:41: > > Over the last week or so I've been fumbling with the processes of a couple > of Textual Analysis programmes: "TACT" and "Lexa". From what I can gather > so far it seems that it is probably worth persevering. > > What is clear though is that neither programme is going to make up for my > ignorance - much as I'd like them to. Before I can do anything, I'm going > to have to "tag" or "mark-up" a digital text. Here I'm in need of > assistance. > > I've read that Sidney Greenbaum has developed a tagging system for modern > English grammar for University College, London. What I would like to > have access to - if such a thing exists - is a similar scheme for > Classical Sanskrit and Tibetan. > > Have any readers been over this ground before? And if so, would any be so > good as to give me some much needed advice? I used Lexa when I did my Ph.D., and I give a description of how I used it for tagging in my thesis. I found that Lexa through its search-and-replace function gives you a primitive tagger. I was able to tag quite a lot of text automatically, but it had to be cleaned up manually, and certain things had to be entered manually. Basic principle: Lexa allows you to search for parts of words, which allows you create search and replace lists looking like this: Say you want to replace "anyoldword" with "anotherandcompletelynewword" and so on. You can them produce a list file looking like this: wordword etc. This principle allows you to tag case endings, e.g. CLASS_n: INSTRUMENTAL enaena_INSTRUMENTAL e.nae.na_INSTRUMENTAL etc. or: CLASS_n: PTCL hyhy_PTCL hihi_PTCL where ptcl = particle. Words that are tagged in the wrong way frequently you may have to collect in a separate listfile and tag them as complete words. You will find a more detailed description in the appendices to my thesis: The Crux of Chronology in Sanskrit Literature. Statistics and Indology. A Study of Method. Scandinavian Univesity Press, Oslo 1997. Good luck! Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Tue Nov 16 10:43:40 1999 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 11:43:40 +0100 Subject: New Old Critical Approach of Rg Veda Message-ID: <161227053682.23782.8140530495819853661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of INDOLOGY e-mail list, please accept my respectful greetings. The following link will bring You to a text (someone's answer to someone's question) with an attempt to date Vedas in an unusual for most of indologists way: http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1996_3/msg00045.html . As You have read it, You see now that the astronomical evidence is taken for the basis. This is not something new, but I have not seen so far any really deep going study of this issue. Herewith, I would like to ask those who are specialists in Vedic Studies (unlike me so far) for their opinion in this regard. I have already heard one opinion from one respectable person; he said it was rather a sign of one aspect in Hindu fundamentalism, namely, of attempts to bring Vedas above all other religious scriptures in order to belittle other traditions/cultures. But let us adhere to the critical textual approach alone, leaving aside the fundamentalism for a while, and try to accept things as they are, after all it is not that these astronomical facts MUST be of fundamentalistic nature. Thus, I would like to honestly enquire from Vedic Studies specialists for their new old critical approach of Rg Veda (and other Vedas), in terms of its date as based on astronomical evidences found in it. These (and other) new viewpoints are simply necessary, in my humble opinion, for further development of Indology and related fields of science, because otherwise one may fall the victim of conservatism, which is a great foe of any progress. Thanks everyone for any useful information in this regard. Your ever well-wisher, Sergei Schmalz. PS To "warm up" this discussion I quote from "Vishveshvaranand Indological Paper Series, Reprinted from Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal, Vol. XXIV, Pts.i-ii, June-Dec., 1986", from the article "Jain Art and Architecture" (edited by R.C. Dwivedi, Director, Centre for Jain Studies, University of Rajasthan, Jaipur, 1980.): "Most of our scholars make inadequate or partial investigation in subjects of their interest. They offer nothing new and significant as a result of their studies and researchers. They lack devotion to studies and proper orientation in methodology." From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Nov 16 21:01:19 1999 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 13:01:19 -0800 Subject: None In-Reply-To: <19991001031444.31316.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053702.23782.927229373754423106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend is searching for an article by Minoru Hara entitled "keSa-grahaNa" (not sure of the diacritics in the title). He is having some difficulty locating it. Does anyone know in which journal this article appears? Please send responses to t_shul at uclink4.berkeley.edu thanks, chandan narayan chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu || socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan "You couldn't fool your mother on your most foolingist day of your life, even if you had an electrified fooling machine. " From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Tue Nov 16 22:30:15 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 14:30:15 -0800 Subject: 12th century Buddha relic found near Tiruchi Message-ID: <161227053704.23782.7030139490922123383.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/stories/0417223l.htm "... Though statues of Lord Buddha have been found in Kuzhumani, Pettaivaithalai, Thathayankaranpettai, Vellanur, Ariyalur, Veppur and Jayamkondam in Tiruchi region, this is the first inscription that has been found relating to Buddhism in the region. ..... The inscriptions which runs on all the four sides of the pillar, is in Tamil, and it was indeed unique that the sacred symbols relating to Buddhism are round on all the four sides of the rectangular pillar. At the bottom portion of the pillar are seen two `poornakumbhams' with decorated lamps on either side. ... " ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 16 19:53:52 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 14:53:52 -0500 Subject: Special numbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053696.23782.13624414123659474318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Jonathan Silk wrote: > >> well, of course there are 404 diseases in Buddhist texts... > >Oh? Didn't know that. Are they listed? Where is this? > I have never seen a list, but there is (somewhere--all my notes are at home) an explanation -- I believe it comes from 4 x 101, but I (as they say) disremember why at the moment... Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520 tel. 203-432-0828 From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Nov 16 20:15:42 1999 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 15:15:42 -0500 Subject: Background of the Sikh name `Singh'? Message-ID: <161227053698.23782.10063434675650800873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In most Indian languages and sanskrit singh or simha means lion. The last name singh and sinha from UP, bihar are probably related. My guess is that singh or sinha symbolizes a lion and the name is used to denote a warrior caste. Early sikhs may have adopted names from those of warrior classes of that period. Many rajputs and thakurs may have adopted sikhism. I would like to hear from someone who actually knows the history behind the name. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Nov 16 14:51:55 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 15:51:55 +0100 Subject: Report: Intl. Vedic Workshop/Kyoto In-Reply-To: <19991116104103.57648.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053714.23782.2784519721991485858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few quick answers: At 2:41 -0800 11/16/99, Vishal Agarwal wrote: >"other texts of the Paipp. tradition (Paddhatis of the >Paithinasi GS and the Angirasakalpa also have been filmed for editorial >work)." >VA: Paithinasi GS or Dharmasutra? The GS (I also took some already in 1983 but did not work on them): marriage, upanayana etc. >Are these the same Paddhatis which >Durgamohan Bhattacharya mentioned ("Fundamental themes of the Atharvaveda")? Some should overlap with D.M's. No one has seen them (see below) . >Will the complete oral recordings of Paippalada Samhita be used for >preparing the critical edition? Interesting, but pretty useless as they all go back to a WRITTEN Tradition (archetype of c. 800-1000 AD); that means, *also* the text of the Kashmir manuscript. See my papers (in German) of 1985 on PS (via my website), on AV + PS, and on oral transmission in Orissa (Muendliche Ueberlieferung) >Any manuscipts of the Agastya Kalpa >(mentioned as the Kalpa of Paippaladins in 'Prapancahridaya')? Paippalada >Brahamana? Any new manuscripts of the Parisishatas? The Kalpa (Srautasutra) has never been found anywhere. Nor the Paipp. Br. of 100 chapters. It may be in some village: I do not have much hope. But, you never know... Yet, no one is looking. Arlo is the first after my short trip of 3 weeks in1983.... What are Indologists doing??? It is a short trip by plane, train or bus from the next (Skt.) University.... On the other hand, Dipak Bh. keeps things to himself, does not share them with anybody (though the MSS were taken away from the villagers by his father with some police 'help' ...) What shall I say? It is a scandal that no one cares about the 2nd oldest Indian text.... ___________________ >MW: " Paipp. Samh. 20 and Taittiriya Upanisad"/KU >VA: Any new light on the supposedly Atharvanic origins of the TU and KU? Certainly, not AV-origin... Both are typical for YV texts... Only, that a part of TU I.11 = Katha Siksa Up. = PS 20 (see my 1989 & now Mieko's paper). This part of PS 20 may be late, no good indicators for date of interpolation (?) >(Eg. "Sumantu and Kashyapa are the seers of the Brahmana and the Aranyaka": >Carayaniya Mantrashadhyaya) We cannot rely too much on this text. Late and incomplete though useful for the trad. of KS. --- Renou even called it a "juvenile effort" (*effort pue'ril*) Best wishes, Yrs MW ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From sbaldwin at EXECPC.COM Tue Nov 16 22:38:45 1999 From: sbaldwin at EXECPC.COM (Shauna Singh Baldwin) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 16:38:45 -0600 Subject: Qs on Noor Inayat Khan Message-ID: <161227053706.23782.2361164745185403532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology Members: I would appreciate if anyone has information on Noor-un-Nisa Inayat Khan, alias Madeleine, who was born in 1912 at the Kremlin, of a Christian Scientist American mother and a Muslim Sufi teacher of the Tzar, grew up in Paris, became a WWII spy for the SOE and was eventually tortured and killed at Dachau. Her father, Pir Inayat Khan, was from Baroda. She was awarded the King George Cross in 1949. So far I have found a couple of websites, one by a Princess Noor Appreciation Society. Noor is given quite a lot of space in Leo Marks' book, "Beyond Silk and Cyanide" and in William Stevenson's "A Man Called Intrepid". I've just received two books by Jean Overton Fuller, one a (most admiring) biography of Madeleine, which however does not seem to mention her connection with William Stephenson (Intrepid) at all. The second book by Fuller is a prose poem called Conversations with a Captor, based on an interview with Noor's captor at Dachau. I have Noor's "Ten Jataka Tales" too. Further recommendations will be most appreciated. If you have heard of/read any fiction that is based on Noor's story, I would appreciate knowing about it. When I find more material I can figure out if I'm the writer who can tell the tale. Best Regards, Shauna Singh Baldwin What the Body Remembers ( Knopf Canada; Transworld UK; Nan Talese/Doubleday USA; Seuil France; Bertelsmann, Germany; Mondadori Editore, Italy. 1999) English Lessons and Other Stories (Goose Lane, Canada 1996; Harper Collins India, 1999) A Foreign Visitor's Survival Guide to America (John Muir Publications USA, 1992) From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Tue Nov 16 04:40:37 1999 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Mahoney, Richard B) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 17:40:37 +1300 Subject: Digital Texts: Tagging Message-ID: <161227053672.23782.10840598663461602435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Readers Over the last week or so I've been fumbling with the processes of a couple of Textual Analysis programmes: "TACT" and "Lexa". From what I can gather so far it seems that it is probably worth persevering. What is clear though is that neither programme is going to make up for my ignorance - much as I'd like them to. Before I can do anything, I'm going to have to "tag" or "mark-up" a digital text. Here I'm in need of assistance. I've read that Sidney Greenbaum has developed a tagging system for modern English grammar for University College, London. What I would like to have access to - if such a thing exists - is a similar scheme for Classical Sanskrit and Tibetan. Have any readers been over this ground before? And if so, would any be so good as to give me some much needed advice? -- Regards Richard Mahoney From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Nov 16 13:01:14 1999 From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 18:31:14 +0530 Subject: Email Address In-Reply-To: <19991116121031.25031.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053687.23782.4072961371728376270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone pass on Arlo Griffiths' email address? Thanks. Christian Novetzke Columbia University From fushimi at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Nov 17 00:54:02 1999 From: fushimi at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Makoto Fushimi) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 19:54:02 -0500 Subject: Ke=?iso-8859-15?Q?=E7agrahaNa by Minoru Hara?= In-Reply-To: <383203FF.1EA8@bahnhof.se> Message-ID: <161227053712.23782.5067730173115471961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Published in *Acta Orientalia*, Copenhagen, probably some 10 years ago > (at any rate after 1985). author = "Hara, Minoru", year = "1986", title = "The Holding of the Hair(Kesa-grahana).", journal = "AcOr 47", page = "67--92", -- Makoto Fushimi From sb51 at SOAS.AC.UK Tue Nov 16 19:18:02 1999 From: sb51 at SOAS.AC.UK (Stefan Baums) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 20:18:02 +0100 Subject: Background of the Sikh name `Singh'? Message-ID: <161227053694.23782.15110556939269809073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello all. A friend of mine has to write an article for the Danish National Encyclopaedia (Gyldendal) about the Indian (Sikh?) name `Singh'. While the Sanskrit etymology and the fact that the name is widespread among Sikhs is obvious, any additional information (and/or references) would be highly appreciated (one question that comes to mind: Are all those Singhs named after some important person in the history of Sikhism?). Many thanks in advance, Stefan -- PGP-ID: 4AF752D0 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 16 20:39:46 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 21:39:46 +0100 Subject: SV: Background of the Sikh name `Singh'? Message-ID: <161227053700.23782.9053288468406449068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stefan Baums [SMTP:sb51 at SOAS.AC.UK] skrev 16. november 1999 20:18: > Hello all. > > A friend of mine has to write an article for the Danish National > Encyclopaedia (Gyldendal) about the Indian (Sikh?) name `Singh'. > While the Sanskrit etymology and the fact that the name is widespread > among Sikhs is obvious, any additional information (and/or references) > would be highly appreciated (one question that comes to mind: Are all > those Singhs named after some important person in the history of > Sikhism?). May I suggest that your friend consult the following book: W. Owen Cole/Piara Singh Sambhi. The Sikhs. Their Religious Beliefs and Practices. Routledge. London, 1989. On page 36, the explanation of the use of the Singh name runs: "The members of the new brotherhood, which was called the Khalsa (pure ones), were to have no dealings with those who followed rival leaders or their successors and were also instructed to wear five symbols - uncut hair, a comb, a steel wrist guard, a sword, and short breeches. Initiated men took the name "Singh" (Lion) [...] women were admitted to the Khalsa, taking the name "Kaur" (princess)." In other words, the use of the Singh name is not related to any particular person. It has rather a symbolic value. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Nov 17 04:48:14 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 23:48:14 -0500 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053717.23782.9728830684537498189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One can find many names consisting of the place name and the given name in the list of Classical Tamil poets as well as the inscriptions. Consider iLaiyAn2kuTi mARan2 mentioned earlier in the thread. One can have the name like maturai mIn2AkSi even though there is no other famous mIn2AkSi (except may be Houston's :-)) And there is no need to add any honorific suffixes to add to the name. Consider the case of tirunAvukkaracu (a veLLALa) and appUti aTikaL (a brahmin). appUti was such an ardent admirer of tirunAvukkaracu, he named all his institutions after tirunAvukkaracu. He even named his sons after tirunAvukkaracu. It was the oldest son mUtta tirunAvukkaracu who was bitten by a snake and tirunAvukkaracu sang a hymn to bring him back to life. (In a way, it was lthe reverse of the present situation where a non-brahmin is admiring a brahmin.) But no place name was used in tirunAvukkaracu's case. With respect to the other saint cuntarar, we find in SII 2, no. 65, tEvAram singers named after ArUran2 along with those named after campantan2, and tirunAvukkaraiyan2. Theoretically one can take ArUran2 to refer to ziva also. But considering the presence of the names of other two saints, ArUran2 too probably referred to cuntarar. So, one need not have kAlaTimun2ivan2 or any similar form. A form like kAlaTiyAn2 would be fine too. It is fortunate that we have such an explicit identification in the case of Sankara. The reason for explicitly qualifying Sankara with kAlaTi could be the following. The name caGkaran2 is a popular one in the tirunelvEli district among brahmins and non-brahmins. The name refers to ziva at caGkaran2kOvil, a popular place of pilgrimage in the tirunelvEli region. (I do not have any epigraphic data on the temple.) It is possible that the father of kAlaTiccaGkaran2 wanted to indicate that the boy was being named after the human Sankara of kAlaTi and not the divine Sankara at caGkaran2kOvil. Regards S. Palaniappan From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Nov 17 00:21:06 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 00:21:06 +0000 Subject: Special numbers Message-ID: <161227053710.23782.12364607747140157732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > > >> well, of course there are 404 diseases in Buddhist texts... > > > >Oh? Didn't know that. Are they listed? Where is this? > > > I have never seen a list, but there is (somewhere--all my notes are at > home) an explanation -- I believe it comes from 4 x 101, but I (as they > say) disremember why at the moment... They are mentioned in the Tibetan medical texts such as the bDud-rtsi sNying-po (Ch 12) -- "there are classifiactions of 101 ailments with reagrds to the 3 hunours, 101 with regard to principle ailments, 101 with regards to the locations, and 101 with regards to general categories of ailaments". I have also seen 101 allocated to each one of the 3 humours and a further 101 for combinations. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Wed Nov 17 01:25:19 1999 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 01:25:19 +0000 Subject: Ke=?iso-8859-15?Q?=E7agrahaNa by Minoru Hara?= Message-ID: <161227053708.23782.9332777600772789624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: "Chandan R. Narayan" > > A friend is searching for an article by Minoru Hara entitled > "keSa-grahaNa" > Does anyone know in which journal this > article appears? Published in *Acta Orientalia*, Copenhagen, probably some 10 years ago (at any rate after 1985). From BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA Wed Nov 17 10:01:38 1999 From: BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (GHOSE,LYNKEN,MR) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 05:01:38 -0500 Subject: Asvaghosa's texts Message-ID: <161227053721.23782.8227915671798050654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Ganesan: According to E.H. Johnston, the 2 manuscripts for the Saundarananda are in the library of H.H. the Maharaja of Nepal. Now, this was a while back, so I'm not sure where they are now. I can't remember offhand where they were discovered, nor where the manuscripts for the other texts of As'vaghos.a were discovered. However, here's some information concerning editions of the texts themselves, or fragments. Saundarananda The Saundarananda of As'vaghos.a ed. and transl. by E.H. Johnston (with Sanskrit as well). Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1975 (1st ed. 1928) As'vaghos.a Nanda il Bello (Saundarananda Mahaakaavya).Milano: Adelphi Edizioni, 1985 (only has an Italian transl.) Buddhacarita As'vaghos.a's Buddhacarita. Irma Schotsman, translator. Sarnath: Central Institute of Higher Tibetan Studies, 1995. (Sanskrit and English) As'vaghos.a's Buddhacarita. E.H. Johnston, transl. and editor (Sanskrit and English). First ed. 1936. Delhi: Motilal B. 1995. I have a lot more information if you would like to write me directly. There is also fragements of a play. I believe Luders published some- thing on this, but I'm not sure if there's been more recent work. Lynken Ghose McGill University From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 17 14:48:05 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 06:48:05 -0800 Subject: Parasol in India Message-ID: <161227053727.23782.7169907003268769273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please help me with this question: In temples, a (white) parasol is held over the deity in procession (utsavam/ta. uurvalam) routinely. Kings are regularly described having a parasol while in court. Does this imagery of a king under parasol occur in late vedic texts? What about the epics? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 17 16:14:30 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 08:14:30 -0800 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053731.23782.8442165013172875537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > One can have the name like maturai mIn2AkSi even > though there is no other > famous mIn2AkSi (except may be Houston's :-)) Though not vaDapazaniappan even in Madras :-) > > But no place name was used in > tirunAvukkaracu's case. > With respect to the other saint cuntarar, we find in > SII 2, no. 65, tEvAram > singers named after ArUran2 along with those named > after campantan2, and > tirunAvukkaraiyan2. Also are any of appUti aDikaL's sons named (TirumunaippADi?) + tirunAvukkaracu? Analogous to kAlaDiccankaran, a boy named after cuntarar would have to be called ArUr cuntaran. I do not suppose this is encountered. > A form like kAlaTiyAn2 would be fine too. Precisely. It is for this reason that a name like kAlaDiccankaran would be a redundancy and hence, I guess, quite out of the ordinary. > > The reason for explicitly qualifying Sankara with > kAlaTi could be the > following. The name caGkaran2 is a popular one in > the tirunelvEli district > among brahmins and non-brahmins. Was the name popular even in the timeframe in question? > The name refers to > ziva at caGkaran2kOvil, a > popular place of pilgrimage in the tirunelvEli > region. (I do not have any > epigraphic data on the temple.) The age of this temple would naturally be of interest. > It is possible that > the father of > kAlaTiccaGkaran2 wanted to indicate that the boy was > being named after the > human Sankara of kAlaTi and not the divine Sankara > at caGkaran2kOvil. IMHO, improbable although not impossible. On the other hand, let's look at occurrences of the word or name cankara in the epigraphic record. 1. cankarappADiyAr. According to MTL, this is < cakkarappADiyAr, so stands for oilmen. MTL gives a SII reference for this. 2. cankaran in the meaning of warrior (< saMhAra) according to MTL quoting yAzppANa akarAti. 3. cankara also means (persons) of mixed caste. Cf MTL (< saMkara). Noboru Karashima gives this reading for one epigraph in his book. I don't have the reference handy but if I remember right it is one of the AllUr or IcAnamangalam inscriptions. But he also quotes another epigraph where he eschews even this reading saying the meaning is not clear since "cankara" is encountered juxtaposed with another obscure expression (azincikai?). Among various entries for kAlaDi in the MTL, there are a couple which are interesting: 1) nearby 2) a subordinate person/ a person under protection These are some possible lines of inquiry. Hope this helps, Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 17 16:34:14 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 08:34:14 -0800 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053733.23782.7427596621369289678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Also are any of appUti aDikaL's sons named village name> (TirumunaippADi?) + tirunAvukkaracu? Appar's native village is Thiruvathikai near Cuddalore. There is an important Pallava temple there by the Pallavan, Nrupatungan. > Was the name popular even in the timeframe in > question? Manikkavasakar asks Sankara (Shiva): caGkaraa! yaar kolO caturar? Shaivaite saint, Manikkavasakar's criticism of advaitam(maayaavaada) is well known. Regards, SM ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 17 16:50:56 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 08:50:56 -0800 Subject: econmy size Message-ID: <161227053736.23782.13516550046403884324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> tv was broadcasting about us china trade agreements, there was mention that china is a 4 trillion $ economy. how much is indian gdp in 1998? range: 2 trillion or 1 trillion or 500 billion?? is this the reason why indian studies are meager compared to those about china? many south asia grads work eventually in banks or web design. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Nov 17 17:14:42 1999 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert P. Goldman) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 09:14:42 -0800 Subject: Parasol in India In-Reply-To: <000301bf3112$b6bfaad0$4cf75d86@phiindia> Message-ID: <161227053743.23782.10383458514220418201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe that this is a commonplace in the epics. An apparently early example would be RAmAyaNa 2. 5. 2 ( crit. ed) where the aged King DaZaratha describes his body has having been worn out in the shade of the white umbrella, clearly a metonymy for royal sovereignty. idaM ZarIraM kRtsnyasya lokasya caratA hitam pANDurasyAtapatrasya chAyAyAM jaritaM mayA >Dear N.Ganesan, >please acept my respectful greetings. > >> Please help me with this question: >> In temples, a (white) parasol is held over the deity in procession >> (utsavam/ta. uurvalam) routinely. Kings are regularly described >> having a parasol while in court. Does this imagery of a king under >> parasol occur in late vedic texts? What about the epics? > > As far as srutis are concerned, no idea, but Monier-Williams Sanskrit >dictionary may provide some notes on the occurance of the word chatra >(parasol) in srutis (and smrtis). > As far as smrtis are concerned, there are some verses in Bhagavata >Purana >where the word chatra is used in this context: > > Bhagavata Purana 8.10.18: bala-vyajana-chatragryaih (said >of Bali Maharaja) > 8.18.14: dyaus chatram jagatah pateh (said >of Vamana) > 8.18.23: chatram sa-dandam sa-jalam >kamandalum (same) > 9.10.42: sveta-cchatram marut-sutah (Rama >& Hanuman) [exactly a WHITE >parasol] > > Also in the great Vaisnava work Caitanya-caritamrta (by Krsnadasa >Kaviraja >Gosvami) Hera-pancami (Laksmi-vijaya) festival is mentioned. Chatra >(parasol) is among the articles used for worship of Laksmi: > > Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 14.107-109: ara >chatra-camare (verse 109) > 14.128-129: >chatra-camara-dhvaja (verse 129) > >With best wishes, >Sergei Schmalz. Dr. R. P. Goldman Sarah Kailath Professor in India Studies Professor of Sanskrit and Chairman, Center for South Asia Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Wed Nov 17 20:24:43 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 10:24:43 -1000 Subject: econmy size In-Reply-To: <19991117165056.13593.rocketmail@web303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227053755.23782.2322468428082478924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > tv was broadcasting about us china trade agreements, there was mention > that china is a 4 trillion $ economy. how much is indian gdp in 1998? > range: 2 trillion or 1 trillion or 500 billion?? Use of the number "4 trillion US$" indicates that the GNP was measured in Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) terms. In PPP terms, India's GNP is about US$ 1.6 trillion. PPP is a method of adjusting the exchange rates to account for the fact that living expenses in different countries are different. In nominal terms (i.e., without adjusting exchange rates), the Chinese GNP is approx US$ 1 trillion, whereas the Indian GNP is about US$ 400 million. By either measure, the Chinese economy is currently about 2.5 times bigger than the Indian economy. Regards, Raja. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 17 19:00:59 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 11:00:59 -0800 Subject: Good book on Tantra and BhArtrhari Message-ID: <161227053752.23782.4012136439381352823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like some suggestions on a good book dealing with Tantra - ideally should deal with both Bauddha and Hindu tantra - a book which gives a solid exposition of both the fundemantal as well as the advanced aspects of the system. Also suggestions of good books dealing with BhArtrhari's SphotavAda. I've seen one book by Natalia Isvaseya, where she seems to be trying to relate BhArtrhari to GaudapAda. Any comments on the quality of this work? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 17 19:34:04 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 11:34:04 -0800 Subject: Parasol in India Message-ID: <161227053753.23782.6325523249645950580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >If you study the pre-anthromorphic representations of the Buddha in >Indian art, you will occasionally find a parasol representing the >presence of the Prince Siddhartha. One of the best examples of this >is found on a panel of at least one of the toranas at Sanchi, the >eastern torana, with its scene of the visits the young prince makes >outside Suddhodhana's palace in a chariot. In this panel a court >servant is holding a parasol over an "invisible" being, i.e., the >prince who will eventually become the Buddha. This is found in other >art as well. Exactly; I was planning to write about this! Million thanks for those who shared their valuable insights. Hope others will enhance what is said. In a National Geographic book, in the section on India, there is a nice painting where a ceylonese king, (Parakramabahu). The king is having a party with lot of girls around; There is a white umbrella help over the king there. 1) Do the Pali and Mahayana works describe the royal umbrella? What about Jain texts? Hemacandra? 2) Is this royal parasol common in Iranian and IE myths? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Nov 17 17:07:27 1999 From: 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 12:07:27 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Ke=C3=A7agrahaNa_by_Minoru_Hara?= Message-ID: <161227053738.23782.2440137818276218989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Message text written by Indology >> From: "Chandan R. Narayan" > > A friend is searching for an article by Minoru Hara entitled > "keSa-grahaNa" > Does anyone know in which journal this > article appears? < It appears in: "Acta Orientalia", XLVII, ed. Soeren Egerod, Munksgaard, Copenhagen, 1986, pp. 67-92. We have the journal here. Would you like me to mail you a copy? regards, Ulrich T. Kragh Department of Asian Studies University of Copenhagen From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Wed Nov 17 11:20:28 1999 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 12:20:28 +0100 Subject: Asvaghosa's texts In-Reply-To: <17NOV99.05429470.0014.MUSIC@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> Message-ID: <161227053723.23782.18339034181438009636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 17 Nov 99, at 5:01, GHOSE,LYNKEN,MR wrote: > According to E.H. Johnston, the 2 manuscripts for the Saundarananda > are in the library of H.H. the Maharaja of Nepal. Now, this was a > while back, so I'm not sure where they are now. The two manuscripts of the Saundarananda (in "Nevaarii script" and in "Praacii.nanevaarii script" respectively) are listed and described in the following catalogue: Nepaalaraajakiiya Viirapustakaalayasthapustakaanaa.m B.rhatsuuciipatram. [...] T.rtiiyakha.n.dah [...]. Kaa.thamaa.n.duu. Sa.m 2023, pp. 125- 127. Johnston?s "L" dates from about 1165 A.D. and is partly damaged, whereas Johnston?s "P" (18th cent.) is complete. One palmleaf ms of the Buddhacarita is located in the National Archives Kathmandu, two modern paper mss are found in the Tokyo University Library (in Nepalese characters and in Devanaagarii respectively), see Seiren Matsunami: A Catalogue of the Sanskrit Manuscripts in the Tokyo University Library, Tokyo 1965, Nos. 256 and 257. > I believe Luders published some- thing on this, Heinrich Lueders: Bruchstuecke buddhistischer Dramen. Berlin 1911. (Kleinere Sanskrittexte. Heft 1.) [Repr.: Wiesbaden 1979 (Monographien zur indischen Archaeologie, Kunst und Philologie. 1.)] Heinrich Lueders: Das "Saariputraprakara.na, ein Drama des A"svagho.sa. Berlin 1911. (Sitzungsberichte der Koeniglich Preussischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Berlin) [Reprinted in: Heinrich Lueders. Philologica Indica. Goettingen 1940, pp. 190-213]. > but I'm not sure if there's been more recent work. Biswanath Bhattacharya: A"svagho.sa. A Critical Study of his Authentic Kaavyas, and the Apocryphal Works [...]. Santiniketan 1976 (see also the justified critical review by Jan Willem de Jong, in: Indo-Iranian Journal 20.1978, pp. 124-127). Also: Roland Steiner: "Standard Works on Indian Literature - A Critique. With Special Reference to A.K. Warder?s Treatment of Dharmakiirti?s Vaadanyaaya 19.9-17", in: Bauddhavidyaasudhaakara.h. Studies in Honour of Heinz Bechert on the Occasion of His 65th Birthday. Swisttal- Odendorf 1997 (Indica et Tibetica. 30.), pp. 615-623 [concerning Warder?s conclusion for the "technicalities of composition" in A"svagho.sa?s play Raa.s.trapaalanaa.taka]. With regards, Roland Steiner From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Wed Nov 17 17:31:24 1999 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 12:31:24 -0500 Subject: Parasol in India In-Reply-To: <0c38413231711b9HAL9000@cwcom.net> Message-ID: <161227053750.23782.1598194103796734436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not relevant to the original question, but would anyone know how these parasols were fashioned? Was there a single type of parasol that was invented and spread from a single location, or were there different kinds? Were Indian parasols made the same way as, say, Japanese parasols? --Geeta From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Wed Nov 17 23:42:44 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 13:42:44 -1000 Subject: econmy size In-Reply-To: <19991117233432.21150.rocketmail@web701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227053765.23782.8536518197489689375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote: > --- "Narayan S. Raja" wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > > > > tv was broadcasting about us china trade agreements, there was > > mention > > > that china is a 4 trillion $ economy. how much is indian gdp in > > 1998? > > > range: 2 trillion or 1 trillion or 500 billion?? > > > > Use of the number "4 trillion US$" indicates > > that the GNP was measured in Purchasing > > Power Parity (PPP) terms. In PPP terms, > > India's GNP is about US$ 1.6 trillion. > > > > PPP is a method of adjusting the exchange rates > > to account for the fact that living expenses > > in different countries are different. > > > > In nominal terms (i.e., without adjusting exchange > > rates), the Chinese GNP is approx US$ 1 trillion, > > whereas the Indian GNP is about US$ 400 million. > 400 *millions* sounds too small... Ooops, I meant 400 billion, not 400 million. > > By either measure, the Chinese economy is currently > > about 2.5 times bigger than the Indian economy. > Okay,.. then you meant 400 *billions* for India. Yes, 400 billion. Regards, Raja. From b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT Wed Nov 17 13:03:06 1999 From: b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT (Bruno Lo Turco) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 14:03:06 +0100 Subject: So.dhalanigha.n.tu Message-ID: <161227053725.23782.14047568602144200617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I have a question regarding the So.dhalanigha.n.tu: what is meant by lak.sma.nAdi and anekArtha, which are the names of the 7th and 8th vargas of drugs listed in the first section (nAmasaGgraha) of the work? Bruno Lo Turco Universita' di Roma 'La Sapienza' From prince at OTSUMA.AC.JP Wed Nov 17 06:03:05 1999 From: prince at OTSUMA.AC.JP (Matsumura) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 15:03:05 +0900 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara In-Reply-To: <0.c73e431f.25638d8e@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227053719.23782.7070025650988823646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of > Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 1:48 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Kaladi and Sankara > > > One can find many names consisting of the place name and the given name in > the list of Classical Tamil poets as well as the inscriptions. Consider > iLaiyAn2kuTi mARan2 mentioned earlier in the thread. > > One can have the name like maturai mIn2AkSi even though there is no other > famous mIn2AkSi (except may be Houston's :-)) > > And there is no need to add any honorific suffixes to add to the name. > Consider the case of tirunAvukkaracu (a veLLALa) and appUti aTikaL (a > brahmin). appUti was such an ardent admirer of tirunAvukkaracu, > he named all > his institutions after tirunAvukkaracu. He even named his sons after > tirunAvukkaracu. It was the oldest son mUtta tirunAvukkaracu who > was bitten > by a snake and tirunAvukkaracu sang a hymn to bring him back to > life. (In a > way, it was lthe reverse of the present situation where a non-brahmin is > admiring a brahmin.) But no place name was used in tirunAvukkaracu's case. > With respect to the other saint cuntarar, we find in SII 2, no. > 65, tEvAram > singers named after ArUran2 along with those named after campantan2, and > tirunAvukkaraiyan2. Theoretically one can take ArUran2 to refer to ziva > also. But considering the presence of the names of other two > saints, ArUran2 > too probably referred to cuntarar. So, one need not have > kAlaTimun2ivan2 or > any similar form. A form like kAlaTiyAn2 would be fine too. It is > fortunate > that we have such an explicit identification in the case of Sankara. > > The reason for explicitly qualifying Sankara with kAlaTi could be the > following. The name caGkaran2 is a popular one in the tirunelvEli district > among brahmins and non-brahmins. The name refers to ziva at > caGkaran2kOvil, a > popular place of pilgrimage in the tirunelvEli region. (I do not have any > epigraphic data on the temple.) It is possible that the father of > kAlaTiccaGkaran2 wanted to indicate that the boy was being named after the > human Sankara of kAlaTi and not the divine Sankara at caGkaran2kOvil. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan > From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 17 23:34:32 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 15:34:32 -0800 Subject: econmy size Message-ID: <161227053763.23782.3721275533050789931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "Narayan S. Raja" wrote: > On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > > tv was broadcasting about us china trade agreements, there was > mention > > that china is a 4 trillion $ economy. how much is indian gdp in > 1998? > > range: 2 trillion or 1 trillion or 500 billion?? > > Use of the number "4 trillion US$" indicates > that the GNP was measured in Purchasing > Power Parity (PPP) terms. In PPP terms, > India's GNP is about US$ 1.6 trillion. > > PPP is a method of adjusting the exchange rates > to account for the fact that living expenses > in different countries are different. > > In nominal terms (i.e., without adjusting exchange > rates), the Chinese GNP is approx US$ 1 trillion, > whereas the Indian GNP is about US$ 400 million. 400 *millions* sounds too small... > > By either measure, the Chinese economy is currently > about 2.5 times bigger than the Indian economy. Okay,.. then you meant 400 *billions* for India. > > Raja. > Chandra ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 17 23:56:41 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 15:56:41 -0800 Subject: bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053767.23782.3443610228147727540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>For instance, the fact that it is a view held by Santal groups in >>Orissa is difficult to relate to a direct tibetan influence. It could, >>however, imply a old (2000 yrs ago?) buddhist influence on Santal >>religion... >I am interested in the Santals and their neighbouring Munda people >though the information I need seems sparse. I suspect that these >people directly or indirectly had a strong influence on certain later >forms of tantric Buddhism. The influence, if any, upon the Tibetans >would via this route. Dear Shri. Hodge, Tamil siddha vaidhya works and siddha poetry also talk of bones and flesh in the same way. We don't have to invoke Munda influence alone since the concepts appear to be pan Indian. Best wishes, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Wed Nov 17 15:45:02 1999 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 16:45:02 +0100 Subject: Parasol in India In-Reply-To: <19991117144805.91866.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053729.23782.8351801369561778460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear N.Ganesan, please acept my respectful greetings. > Please help me with this question: > In temples, a (white) parasol is held over the deity in procession > (utsavam/ta. uurvalam) routinely. Kings are regularly described > having a parasol while in court. Does this imagery of a king under > parasol occur in late vedic texts? What about the epics? As far as srutis are concerned, no idea, but Monier-Williams Sanskrit dictionary may provide some notes on the occurance of the word chatra (parasol) in srutis (and smrtis). As far as smrtis are concerned, there are some verses in Bhagavata Purana where the word chatra is used in this context: Bhagavata Purana 8.10.18: bala-vyajana-chatragryaih (said of Bali Maharaja) 8.18.14: dyaus chatram jagatah pateh (said of Vamana) 8.18.23: chatram sa-dandam sa-jalam kamandalum (same) 9.10.42: sveta-cchatram marut-sutah (Rama & Hanuman) [exactly a WHITE parasol] Also in the great Vaisnava work Caitanya-caritamrta (by Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami) Hera-pancami (Laksmi-vijaya) festival is mentioned. Chatra (parasol) is among the articles used for worship of Laksmi: Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 14.107-109: ara chatra-camare (verse 109) 14.128-129: chatra-camara-dhvaja (verse 129) With best wishes, Sergei Schmalz. From jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU Wed Nov 17 17:11:35 1999 From: jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU (J. Daniel White) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 17:11:35 +0000 Subject: Parasol in India Message-ID: <161227053742.23782.13124261936462466880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sergei, If you study the pre-anthromorphic representations of the Buddha in Indian art, you will occasionally find a parasol representing the presence of the Prince Siddhartha. One of the best examples of this is found on a panel of at least one of the toranas at Sanchi, the eastern torana, with its scene of the visits the young prince makes outside Suddhodhana's palace in a chariot. In this panel a court servant is holding a parasol over an "invisible" being, i.e., the prince who will eventually become the Buddha. This is found in other art as well. Dan White > From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Wed Nov 17 17:21:44 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 17:21:44 +0000 Subject: Parasol in India In-Reply-To: <19991117144805.91866.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053746.23782.4254373620270437344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:48:05 PST Send reply to: Indology From: "N. Ganesan" Subject: Parasol in India To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Please help me with this question: > In temples, a (white) parasol is held over the deity in procession > (utsavam/ta. uurvalam) routinely. Kings are regularly described > having a parasol while in court. Does this imagery of a king under > parasol occur in late vedic texts? What about the epics? > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > Reply This is one of the attributes of an officially annointed king. The ultimate source of its history is the monumental History of Dharmashaastra by Mm. P.V. Kane, in 8 volumes, published by the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune (India). KSA ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Wed Nov 17 17:21:44 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 17:21:44 +0000 Subject: So.dhalanigha.n.tu In-Reply-To: <01bf30fc$17211880$LocalHost@carlos> Message-ID: <161227053748.23782.15137650435598423640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:03:06 +0100 Send reply to: Indology From: Bruno Lo Turco Subject: So.dhalanigha.n.tu To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Dear members of the list, > I have a question regarding the So.dhalanigha.n.tu: > what is meant by lak.sma.nAdi and anekArtha, which are the > names of the 7th and 8th > vargas of drugs listed in the first section (nAmasaGgraha) > of the work? > > Bruno Lo Turco > Universita' di Roma 'La Sapienza' Reply As the work under reference seems to be an Ayurvedic thesaurus, 'anekaartha-varga' should be the section of words with more than one referent, as in works of similar nature like Amara-kosha. 'Lakshmana' is noted in Charaka, Suutra. IV.94 as a vegetable. Section 7 appears to be a list headed by (-aadi) that vegetable. KSA From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Nov 17 23:26:45 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 18:26:45 -0500 Subject: Indian paper manufacturers and import of English paper Message-ID: <161227053761.23782.14128251016323639484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know anything about these related topics: 1. The history of the manufacture of paper with European techniques in India? 2. The import of European paper into India? 3. Watermarks in paper made or used in India? Thanks for any help. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 18 02:14:32 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 21:14:32 -0500 Subject: Good book on Tantra and BhArtrhari Message-ID: <161227053771.23782.16563569279349249798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: nanda chandran >> >Also suggestions of good books dealing with BhArtrhari's SphotavAda. > See: Shabda A Study of Bhartrhari's Philosophy of Language, Tandra Patnaik,published by D.K. Printworld (P) Ltd. Sphota Theory of Language, Coward, H.G. :Motilal Banarsidass Yours, Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vkdhar at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Nov 18 06:21:15 1999 From: vkdhar at IX.NETCOM.COM (Vijay K. Dhar) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 22:21:15 -0800 Subject: Encyclopedia of Tantra Message-ID: <161227053781.23782.7823996128006746400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend of mine told me of the following text on Tantra - Encyclopedia of Tantra by Sadhu Santidev - this text just came out. Anyone aware of other similar works or comments about this? Thanks Vijay K. Dhar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Nov 17 22:54:39 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 99 22:54:39 +0000 Subject: Parasol in India Message-ID: <161227053758.23782.10262937587091867106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > 1) Do the Pali and Mahayana works describe the royal umbrella? > What about Jain texts? Hemacandra? > 2) Is this royal parasol common in Iranian and IE myths? There is a small book called "Buddhist Symbols in Tibetan Culture" by Dagyab Rinpoche (Wisdom Pubns) which describes the parasol which is one of the eight auspicious symbols (a.s.ta-ma`ngala). The author bases his explanations on native Tibetan material and some Indic derived works. What he says in summary is|: They are large, big enough for 4 or 5 people to stand underneath, are made of yellow, white or multicoloured silk strectched over wooden spokes. They also have a broad pleated silk valance. The top is formed by a golden pommel which may be of any shape or height, the staff is also wood, sometimes gilded but usually painted red. In Tibet, high religious dignitaries used ones of silk and secular rulers used ones emroidered with peacock feathers. Symbolically, it signifies spiritual power. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Stephen From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Nov 18 05:12:49 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 00:12:49 -0500 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053777.23782.12958963254902905606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In tirunAvukkaracu's case, this name was coined for him. So there was no need to qualify his name with a place name. If we had a good database of inscriptions, one can look for ArUrc cuntaran2. In any case, we do find caGkaran2 accompanied by place name in another instance. SII 14, no. 144 has the following name "..cEri ko/OTTaiyUrc caGkaran2 civatEvapaTTac cOmAci". This inscription is in Mannarkoyil in Ambasamudram taluk in Tirunelveli district. It mentions the scribe's name as cURRi caGkaran2An2a camaiJcacappiriyan2. SII 14, no.194 in Cermatevi in the same taluk mentions one caGkaran2 kaNavati. Note these places are in the same western Tirunelveli region as kAlaTiccaGkaran2. SII 14, no. 231 in Vijayanarayanam, in Nanguneri taluk in Tirunelveli District mentions a nampi caGkaran2 vAcutEvan2. SII 5, no. 404 in nellaiyappar temple mentions a cEtuGkanATTuc caGkara nArAyaNamUrtti tiruvELaikkARan2. SII 5, no. 412 in the same temple mentions a caGkaranArAyaNap perumpilARu in tirunelvEli. The same inscription mentions caGkaran2pATiyAr who contributed oil. SII 5, no. 437 in the same temple mentions a vaTTamaNi caGkara nArAyaNabhaTTan2. The popularity of caGkaran2 as a name in the 12th-13th centuries in the Tirunelveli area is beyond doubt. caGkaran2pATi is a non-issue. It referred to oil-pressers and was derived from cakra. The interpretation of kAlaTi in the meanings suggested can be ruled out. No person of the status enjoyed by the mazavarAyan2 is going to call his son a servant. (kAlaTi literally means "at the feet". In fact, precisely due to this, a chieftain would not name his child kAlaTi without the additional piece of information provided by the name caGkaran2. I do not think the place name kAlaTi was as widely known as ArUr.) So the rationale for the use of kAlaTi must be that it referred to a place. (Note there is no instance of kAlaTi being used by an elite person as a result of any vow or religious reason where they deliberately choose a negative name.) If at all one wants to give a name meaning a servant of god Sankara, then it has to caGkaran2 kAlaTi and not kAlaTiccaGkaran2. Redundancy in language is there to minimize information loss in communication. Given the status of the chieftain, and the specific form kAlaTiccaGkaran2, the conclusion is inescapable that it referred to Sankara of Kaladi. There is no justification to interpret the components of "kAlaTic caGkaran2" as being in any way different from those of "ko/OTTaiyUrc caGkaran2". Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Nov 18 05:37:41 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 00:37:41 -0500 Subject: dakinis (was: bones and flesh) Message-ID: <161227053779.23782.2269486748754259933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 11/12/99 6:47:08 PM Central Standard Time, s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: > 1. The earliest known occurence of the term ".daakinii" is in the > Gangdhar stone found at the site of old ruins in Gangaadhara, 52 miles > SW of Jhalrapatan, Jhalawar State dated 424CE. It especially > emphasizes the shouting and tumultuous noise made by the .daakiniis. > The term may have been use a little earlier as it seems to occur in > the Meat-eating Chapter of the Lankavatara Sutra. > > 2. I would link the use of the word .daakinii with the early Gupta > conquest / occupation of the Kalinga area which covered much of the > places inhabited by Austro-asiatic speakers. Before one reaches any conclusions on this, one should consider that the equivalent of DAkinI perhaps occurs first in Tamil cilappatikAram, (if only DAka is the form found earlier in Sanskrit texts) in the following line. iTu piNam tin2n2um iTAkin2i pEy vAgki (cil.9.21) Here iTAkini (Skt. DAkinI) is a goblin which eats the corpses at the burial ground. The episode is an interesting one. I have shown in earlier Indology postings that cilappatikAram must be pre-Kalidasa. Also the date of Lankavatara Sutra had also been discussed earlier. Regards S. Palaniappan From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Nov 18 02:27:55 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 02:27:55 +0000 Subject: bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053773.23782.12714155495243912935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shri V Iyer wrote: > >I am interested in the Santals and their neighbouring Munda people > >though the information I need seems sparse. I suspect that these > >people directly or indirectly had a strong influence on certain later > >forms of tantric Buddhism. The influence, if any, upon the Tibetans > >would via this route. > > Dear Shri. Hodge, > > Tamil siddha vaidhya works and siddha poetry also talk of bones > and flesh in the same way. We don't have to invoke Munda influence > alone since the concepts appear to be pan Indian. I agree that the bones/flesh division is pan-Indian. I was actually commenting on the formative input by the Mundas on Buddhist tantras, quite apart from this question. In passing, I also agree with Paul Manansala's comments -- it's a pity the the Munda contribution to various aspects of Indian culture is played down -- after all, they seem to have been in India longer than "newcomers" like the Indo-Eurpeans and the Dravidians. Perhaps when a proper Munda etymological dictionary becomes available we can re-evaluate matters. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 18 11:54:59 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 03:54:59 -0800 Subject: bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053785.23782.15107104772537786075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I agree that the bones/flesh division is pan-Indian. I was actually >commenting on the formative input by the Mundas on Buddhist tantras, >quite apart from this question. In passing, I also agree with Paul >Manansala's comments -- it's a pity the the Munda contribution to >various aspects of Indian culture is played down -- after all, they >seem to have been in India longer than "newcomers" like the >Indo-Eurpeans and the Dravidians. Perhaps when a proper Munda >etymological dictionary becomes available we can re-evaluate matters. I have no problems with the Munda contributions; The problem is when experts in old and new IE, IIr, IA with their deep expertise of those texts treat Munda and Dravidian on par. Probably because they are not that knowledgeable of either Munda or Dravidian texts. At times, the Munda explanations have an equally valid Dravidian ones which are ignored. Probably you will agree that Dravidian philology is not as advanced as that of Sanskrit due to various reasons in Europe for the last 200 yrs. Along with D. Stampe's Munda etymological dictionary, Dravidian texts' study has to adavnce lot further for a proper (re)evaluation of the Indian past. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 18 17:29:51 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 09:29:51 -0800 Subject: bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053791.23782.9178853022525188298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I agree that the bones/flesh division is pan-Indian. I was actually commenting on the formative input by the Mundas on Buddhist tantras, quite apart from this question. In passing, I also agree with Paul Manansala's comments -- it's a pity the the Munda contribution to various aspects of Indian culture is played down -- after all, they seem to have been in India longer than "newcomers" like the Indo-Eurpeans and the Dravidians. >>> For the formative input on tantras from Dravidian side, pl. consult R. Nagaswamy, Tantric cult of South India, Delhi, 1982, 250 p. Any ideas when Dravidians entered India? Prof. Witzel, Substrates in OIA, 1999, p. 14 "Munda originally had no retroflexes". On the same page, "In short, the people of the (northern) Indus language must have spoken with retroflexes". Deciphering the Indus script, p. 166 has "Fig. 9-3. Major linguistic areas in South Asia as defined by the retroflex systems; also, the distribution of the inclusive/exclusive distinction in the pronoun of the first person plural. Based on the ongoing researches of Bertil Tikkanen." The density of retroflexion in this figure is highest for type A and next highest for type B. type A => Tamil, Malayalam type B => Kannada, Marathi, Gujarati, Kacchi, Mewari, Marwari, Malwi, Harauti, Panjabi, ... To east and west of types A & B, retroflexion is lesser. Looking at Tikkanen's retroflexion map, the retroflexion is in the direction of Northwest to the South, and NOT from Northwest to the East. If originally Indus language had retroflexes, does Tikkanen's findings give a clue to the original (northern) Indus language? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From annapya.sjodin at AFRO.UU.SE Thu Nov 18 09:37:00 1999 From: annapya.sjodin at AFRO.UU.SE (=?utf-8?Q?Anna-Pya_Sj=C3=B6din?=) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 10:37:00 +0100 Subject: Nyaaya dictionary Message-ID: <161227053783.23782.294854443927226361.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I have heard about a scholar who is supposed to be working on a dictionary of nyaaya or navya-nyaaya terms. (I think it was someone in Vienna.) If anybody has knowledge of whom it is conducting this work I would be very glad to receive his or her e-mail address. Thanks for any help Anna-Pya Sjodin From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 18 18:45:31 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 10:45:31 -0800 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works Message-ID: <161227053800.23782.9419532310814731545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> george9252 wrote: >A colleague of mine has asked what 20th century work (book and/or article) >of Eastern Philosophy would be a candidate for inclusion on such a list. >His tone implied that the answer is "none." > >Does anyone on the Indology list have a suggestion and/or an opinion? > For an expert and critical opinion of the state of philosophical work in contemporary India, see K. Satchidananda Murty's "Philosophy in India: Traditions, teaching and research," Motilal Banarsidass, 1985. Also see writings of Daya Krishna. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Thu Nov 18 17:30:53 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 12:30:53 -0500 Subject: Background of the Sikh name `Singh'? In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD013F3AC2@SMGMAIL> Message-ID: <161227053792.23782.16934700086471911019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While I am not an expert in Sikh studies, my understanding is that Singh, which means lion, was adopted during the tenure of the fifth Sikh Guru, in part because of a militancy that social conditions demanded at the time. Subsequently Sikhs have used that name. Dan Lusthaus From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Thu Nov 18 17:32:54 1999 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 12:32:54 -0500 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works Message-ID: <161227053795.23782.11424328823787456539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a recent Baruch College poll of philosophers (I don't know who was included), the following were named as the top five books and the top five articles in philosophy in the 20th century: The Top Five Books: 1. Wittgenstein, Philosophical Investigations 2. Heidegger, Being and Time 3. Rawls, A Theory of Justice 4. Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus 5. Russell & Whitehead, Principia Mathematica The Top Five Articles: 1. Quine, "Two Dogmas of Empiricism" 2. Russell, "On Denoting" 3. Godel, "On Formally Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica & Related Systems" 4. Tarski, "The Concept of Truth & Formalized Languages" 5. Sellars, "Empiricism & the Philosophy of Mind" As you can see, the lists contain nothing at all from Eastern Philosophy. A colleague of mine has asked what 20th century work (book and/or article) of Eastern Philosophy would be a candidate for inclusion on such a list. His tone implied that the answer is "none." Does anyone on the Indology list have a suggestion and/or an opinion? Dr. George Cronk Philosophy & Religion Bergen Community College (NJ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Thu Nov 18 03:31:20 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 14:31:20 +1100 Subject: Indian paper manufacturers and import of English paper Message-ID: <161227053775.23782.491842716699624746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A starting place for references could be Premchand's 1995 book (details below), she does refer to an earlier history of paper-making in India but I don't have details with me at the moment. Premchand, Neeta. 1995. Off the deckle edge : a paper-making journey through India. Bombay : Ankur Project. 127 p. ; 23 x 23 cm. ISBN 0 9525831 19. (Available from the author PO Box 4556, 8022 Z?rich, Switzerland). >1. The history of the manufacture of paper with European techniques >in India? > >2. The import of European paper into India? > >3. Watermarks in paper made or used in India? From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Thu Nov 18 13:51:17 1999 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 14:51:17 +0100 Subject: Nyaaya dictionary Message-ID: <161227053786.23782.11255721433171199597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anna-Pya Sj?din wrote: > Dear List Members, > I have heard about a scholar who is supposed to be working on a dictionary > of nyaaya or navya-nyaaya terms. (I think it was someone in Vienna.) If > anybody has knowledge of whom it is conducting this work I would be very > glad to receive his or her e-mail address. > > Thanks for any help > > Anna-Pya Sjodin I suppose you are referring to the "Terminologie der fruehen philosophischen Scholastik in Indien", of which two volumes have appeared so far, published by the "Verlag der Oesterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften". The project is conducted by Gerhard Oberhammer, Ernst Prets and Joachim Prandstetter. For further information you could perhaps contact Ernst Prets (Ernst.Prets at oeaw.ac.at). Regards, -- Birgit Kellner Institut f. Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Universitaet Wien / Vienna University From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Thu Nov 18 20:11:12 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 15:11:12 -0500 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works Message-ID: <161227053802.23782.10644125880225234753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> i[..] *As you can see, the lists contain nothing at all from Eastern = *Philosophy. * *A colleague of mine has asked what 20th century work (book and/or = *article) of Eastern Philosophy would be a candidate for inclusion on = *such a list. His tone implied that the answer is "none." *=20 *Does anyone on the Indology list have a suggestion and/or an opinion? How about J. Krishnamurti's writings (based on his talks and discussions) ? C.R.Selvakumar * *Dr. George Cronk *Philosophy & Religion *Bergen Community College (NJ) * From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 19 00:19:51 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 16:19:51 -0800 Subject: Parasol in India Message-ID: <161227053813.23782.12120659803133504609.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From my old computer diskettes: -------------------------------------------------------------- 16 Nov 1997 Tamil "vEntu" is also a verb There is a Tamil word "vEntu" considered to be a noun and synonymous with the word "vEntan2" both meaning "king". But "vEntu" is not always a noun. Consider the following lines from a Classical Tamil Poem. vATiya mAlai malainta cen2n2iyan2 vEntutozil ayarum aruntalaic cuRRamoTu neTunakar vanten2............. (puRanAn2URu 285.6-8) A modern commentator Auvai turaicAmippiLLai gives the meaning of these lines as "As our lord with a withered garland on the head came to the tall house with the aides including the minister with the rare leadership qualities, who perform the king's kingly/governing job". Thus "vEntutozil" is translated as "king's kingly/governing job". Thus the words are taken as a conjoining of two nouns "vEntu and tozil" in a case context (vERRumaip pUNarcci). But this seems to be wrong for the following reason. According to tolkAppiyam (1.9.9) vEntu+tozil > vEntu+t+tozil = vEntuttozil Since there is no geminate "t" in "vEntutozil", this is not the case in this poem, and obviously we do not have a noun and noun conjoining. Instead, what we have here is a non-past adjectival participle "vEntu" which modifies the noun "tozil" resulting in the following meaning "the job of governing/protecting". Thus, we have here evidence of a word "vEntu" meaning "to govern/protect". (The absence of a geminate "t" leads to some important results.) S. Palaniappan --------------------------------------- In an earlier posting, I have shown that Tamil "vEntu" is a verb used to denote the job of a king. Since a king in his governing role would have many kinds of responsibilities, we need to get a clear understanding of the verb "vEntu". My hypothesis is that it is related to "vEy" (DED 4552) meaning "to cover (as a building), roof, thatch, put on (as a garland). (Compare DED 1219 "kAy" meaning "to grow hot, burn , be warm, etc" and kAntu meaning "to burn, heat, etc.") The cognates of "vEy" are found in all the branches of the Dravidian. So this must go back to proto-Dravidian. To cover as a roof means offering protection. It also means that you have dominion over those you are protecting. In fact, a variant of "vEy" is "mEy" which according to the Tamil Lexicon also means "to dominate, surpass, govern". "vEntan2" (DED 4549) is a noun derived from "vEntu". The cognates of this occur in South Dravidian and possibly Central Dravidian as well. Considering the fact that other Dravidian words meaning "king" are also not found in all the branches, we probably have a situation where the words have been lost in the other languages. The royal symbol, parasol, is another indication of this widespread covering/protecting aspect of kingship. Once we realize the fact that in Dravidian, the king was conceived as "one who covers", the etymology of Sanskrit "vRtra" derived from "vR" "to cover" is very interesting. MW gives the meaning of "vRtra" as "coverer, investor, restrainer?, an enemy, foe, hostile host". Of course, one?s protector is another?s restrainer. MW also includes a meaning "N. of Indra (?), L". How can the arch-enemy of indra be identified with Indra? As DED 4549 shows "vEntan2" also means "indra" in Tamil. This is based on the "king" aspect of indra. If "vRtra" is a translation of Dravidian "vEntan2" meaning "king", then "vRtra" and "indra" can both be identified as kings. This raises another question. If Vedic Aryan-speakers translated this Dravidian concept, what does it imply for the relationship between Aryan-speakers and Dravidian speakers? What do the list members think of this? Does IE have the concept of king as a coverer? Thanks in advance. S. Palaniappan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Nov 19 00:47:15 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 16:47:15 -0800 Subject: bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053769.23782.11032550250851217008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > > >>For instance, the fact that it is a view held by Santal groups in > >>Orissa is difficult to relate to a direct tibetan influence. It could, > >>however, imply a old (2000 yrs ago?) buddhist influence on Santal > >>religion... > > >I am interested in the Santals and their neighbouring Munda people > >though the information I need seems sparse. I suspect that these > >people directly or indirectly had a strong influence on certain later > >forms of tantric Buddhism. The influence, if any, upon the Tibetans > >would via this route. > > Dear Shri. Hodge, > > Tamil siddha vaidhya works and siddha poetry also talk of bones > and flesh in the same way. We don't have to invoke Munda influence > alone since the concepts appear to be pan Indian. > What's wrong with "invoking Munda influence?" Is it any different than invoking Dravidian or "Aryan" influence? The fact that the beliefs are pan-Indian shouldn't have any weight on considering Munda or any other type of influence. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Thu Nov 18 21:49:52 1999 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 16:49:52 -0500 Subject: Significant Book of the Century Message-ID: <161227053806.23782.18434060071396508175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists: The only book that comes to mind that would qualify as a significant contribution to Indian thought in the 20th century is The Life Divine and Savitri by Sri Aurobindo. A close second would be The Religion of Man and Gitanjali by Rabindranath Tagore. Harsha V. Dehejia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Nov 18 16:59:50 1999 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dr Anthony P Stone) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 16:59:50 +0000 Subject: Traditional Panchangam calculations Message-ID: <161227053822.23782.9234321504509054157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Posting number 19341, dated 10 Nov 1999, Harry Spier wrote: > Does anyone know if their exists a study (or thesis) about how the > traditional makers of Panchangams do their calculations in practice. What > I'm really looking for is a field study from someone who actually went > around and compared the algorithms from different practitioners. There is a relevant comparison of 51 panchangams in 'Report of the Calendar Reform Committee', The Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, New Delhi 1955, pp. 23-31. Tony Stone From Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Thu Nov 18 16:42:24 1999 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 17:42:24 +0100 Subject: Volume on Saamkhya Message-ID: <161227053788.23782.14602161039004495220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The latest issue of Asiatische Studien / Etudes Asiatiques (53(3), 1999) has recently come out. It contains the papers read during a conference on Saamkhya (and Yoga) held in Lausanne in November 1998. They are: Peter Bisschop / Hans Bakker: "Mok.sadharma 187 and 239-241 reconsidered" pp. 459-472. John Brockington: "Epic Saa.mkhya: texts, teachers, terminology" pp. 473-490. Jan E. M. Houben: "Why did rationality thrive, but hardly survive in Kapila's 'system'? On the pramaa.nas, rationality and irrationality in Saa.mkhya (part I)" pp. 491-512. Shujun Motegi: "The teaching of Pa?ca'sikha in the Mok.sadharma" pp. 513-535. Albrecht Wezler: "On the origin(s) of the gu.na-theory. Struggling for a new approach (I): Wrestling with Frauwallner" pp. 537-551. Raffaele Torella: "Saa.mkhya as saamaanya'saastra" pp. 553-562. Eli Franco: "Aiita and aaviita" pp. 563-577. Phyllis Granoff: "Refutation as commentary: Medieval Jain arguments against Saa.mkhya" pp. 579-591. Minoru Hara: "Paa'supata and Yoga. Paa'supata-suutra 2.12 and Yoga-suutra 3.37" pp. 593-608. Masaaki Hattori: "On Se'svara-saa.mkhya" pp. 609-618. Angelika Malinar: "Prak.rti as saamaanya" pp. 619-643. Shinkan Murakami: "What is caitanya - eternal or non-eternal?" pp. 645-665. Ernst Steinkellner: "The .Sa.s.titantra on perception, a collection of fragments" pp. 667-677. Johannes Bronkhorst: "The contradiction of Saa.mkhya: on the number and the size of the different tattvas" pp. 679-691. Luis O. Gomez: "Seeing, touching. Counting, accounting. Saa.mkhya as formal thought and intuition" pp. 693-711. Michel Hulin: "Reinterpreting aha.mkaara as a possible way of solving the riddle of Saa.mkhya metaphysics" pp. 713-722. Gerald J. Larson: "Classical Yoga as Neo-Saa.mkhya: a chapter in the history of Indian philosophy" pp. 723-732. T. S. Rukmani: "Saa.mkhya and Yoga: where they do not speak in one voice" pp. 733-753. Peter Schreiner: "What comes first (in the Mahaabhaarata): Saa.mkhya or Yoga?" pp. 755-777. Ian Whicher: "Classical Saa.mkhya, Yoga, and the issue of final purification" pp. 779-798. Johannes Bronkhorst From Msarelas at AOL.COM Thu Nov 18 22:52:08 1999 From: Msarelas at AOL.COM (Marilyn L. Sarelas) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 17:52:08 -0500 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works Message-ID: <161227053811.23782.6293277238318627959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I assisted with the bibliography for Ninian Smart?s World Philosophies (New York: Routledge, 1999). The bibliography is divided by chapter headings. In addition to the bibliographies for all the traditional philosophical settings (chapters on South Asian, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Greek-Roman-Near Eastern, Islamic, Jewish, European, and North American philosophies), there are bibliographies for some of the modern non-Euro-American contexts (chapters on the philosophies of Latin America, Modern Islam, Modern South and South-east Asia, China, Korea and Japan in Modern Times, and Africa). If there are non-Euro-American contenders for your list of the top five philosophy books of the 20th century, some of them should appear in those bibliographies. Philosophy has been slow to expand into a global context, for reasons that are interesting to contemplate. In the ancient setting the philosophical contributions of India and China are easily discerned. The outstanding contributions to human thought in the 20th century--in a global context--are much more difficult to evaluate, and do not necessarily coincide with the value perspectives of philosophy departments. But you have posed an interesting question. The names which come to my mind representing modern Japanese philosophy or the major spiritual teachers of modern India cannot really compete with Wittgenstein and Heidegger in terms of innovative thought currents and impact on academia (however potentially flawed). I?m not sure what Rawls is doing in that list, and a few of the articles are certainly debatable. But note also the problem of women thinkers... From sbaldwin at EXECPC.COM Fri Nov 19 01:19:55 1999 From: sbaldwin at EXECPC.COM (Shauna Singh Baldwin) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 19:19:55 -0600 Subject: Singhs Message-ID: <161227053816.23782.11290280954292398378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello all. A friend of mine has to write an article for the Danish National Encyclopaedia (Gyldendal) about the Indian (Sikh?) name `Singh'. While the Sanskrit etymology and the fact that the name is widespread among Sikhs is obvious, any additional information (and/or references) would be highly appreciated (one question that comes to mind: Are all those Singhs named after some important person in the history of Sikhism?). Many thanks in advance, Stefan Dear Stefan: All Sikh men are called Singhs, but all Singhs are not Sikhs. There are Rajput Hindu families that predate Sikhism and have the last name Singh, meaning Lion. The Tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, created the Khalsa, the ideal Sikh, 300 years ago on April 14, 1699 and said, among other things, that he should bear the last name Singh, with the objective that no one should practise caste in Sikhism (There is a diff between ideal and practise, of course) since with the same last name, a family's caste/occupation name could be hidden/dropped. Sikh women were to bear the last name Kaur, or Princess, so that men should think of us as valuable as princesses. (Again there is a difference between theory and practise). The Encyclopedia of World Religions, recently reprinted, is an excellent source as it now has a chapter on Sikhism by Eleanor Nesbitt. Also, refer to Ethics of the Sikhs by Avtar Singh, and The Sikhs, by Owen Cole and Piara Singh Sambhi. Regards, Shauna Singh Baldwin What the Body Remembers ( Knopf Canada; Transworld UK; Nan Talese/Doubleday USA; Seuil France, Bertelsmann, Germany; Mondadori Editore, Italy. 1999) English Lessons and Other Stories (Goose Lane, Canada 1996; Harper Collins India, 1999) A Foreign Visitor's Survival Guide to America (John Muir Publications USA, 1992) From jkcowart at CARI.NET Fri Nov 19 04:20:13 1999 From: jkcowart at CARI.NET (J. Kingston Cowart) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 20:20:13 -0800 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works In-Reply-To: <199911182011.PAA10394@valluvar.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <161227053818.23782.16239855365831293819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----------------------- At 03:11 PM 11/18/1999 -0500, C.R. Selvakumar wrote: >How about J. Krishnamurti's writings (based on his talks and discussions) ? For those who may be interested in a cogent self-examination of Krishna- murti's thought: Krishnamurti, in dialogue with Professor Allan W. Anderson. _A Wholly Different Way of Living_. London, Victor Gonllancz, Ltd., 1991. The book is a transcript of some 28 conversations between Dr. Anderson (Professor of Religious Studies at San Diego State University) and J. Krish- namurti, videotaped at SDSU from February, 18 to 28, 1974. ISBN 0-575- 05166-3. J. Kingston Cowart, M.S. San Diego, California From mlbd at VSNL.COM Thu Nov 18 17:36:48 1999 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (MLBD) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 23:06:48 +0530 Subject: Encyclopedia of Tantra Message-ID: <161227053798.23782.15065582766485454973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Encyclopedia of Tantra is available and incase someone is interested please contact us. It is in 5 vols. and in English. -- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, UA Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel : (011) 3974826; 3911985; 3918335; 3932747 (011) 5795180; 5793423; 5797356 Fax : (011) 3930689; 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com & mail at mlbd.com Website: http://www.mlbd.com ;www.mlbdbooks.com WISHING YOU ALL A VERY HAPPY DEEPAWALI *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* GOD sleeps in minerals, awakens in plants, walks in animals and thinks in Man, GOD is Man minus his desires. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ----- Original Message ----- From: Vijay K. Dhar To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 11:51 AM Subject: Encyclopedia of Tantra A friend of mine told me of the following text on Tantra - Encyclopedia of Tantra by Sadhu Santidev - this text just came out. Anyone aware of other similar works or comments about this? Thanks Vijay K. Dhar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 19 15:04:52 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 07:04:52 -0800 Subject: F. W. Ellis Message-ID: <161227053835.23782.4648131771045582450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lately, I am getting interested in knowing more about Francis Whyte Ellis. He seems to be much more enlightened than his contemporaries and he wrote separate essays on Malayalam, Telugu and Tamil. How many of these survive? I hear that his papers are in the British library, it will be great to publish them. Usually, the Anthology of Solitary verses (tan2ippATaRRiraTTu) end with the poems by Ellis. Iravatham Mahadevan has published the die block in Madras mint Ellis made for the East India company coin which has Tiruvalluvar on it. Possibly the first portrayal of Tiruvalluvar available?? I have discovered two akaval poems, 1) by Ellis who wrote this after a terrible drought, he dug up several wells in Madras and 2) on his cemetery in Dindugal. >De Nobili put out the fiction that he was a "Roman Brahmin" -- >Romaca Brahmana was the title he gave out. Francis Ellis, in his >contribution to the 1822 Transactions of the Asiatic Society, >explained, "Nobili, who was looked upon by the Jesuits as the chief >apostle of the Indians after Francois Xavier, took incredible pains >to acquire a knowledge of the religion, customs, and language of >Madura, sufficient for the purposes of his ministry. But this was >not all: for to stop the mouths of his opposers and particularly of >those who treated his character of Brachman as an imposture, he >produced an old, dirty parchment in which he had forged, in the >ancient Indian characters, a deed, showing that the Brachmans of >Rome were of much older date than those of India and that the >Jesuits of Rome descended, in a direct line from the god Brama. >Nay, Father Jouvence, a learned Jesuit, tells us, in the history of >his order, something yet more remarkable; even that Robert De >Nobili, when the authenticity of his smoky parchment was called in >question by some Indian unbelievers, declared, upon oath, before the >assembly of the Brachmans of Madura, that he (Nobili) derived really >and truly his origin from the god Brama. Is it not astonishing that >this Reverend Father should acknowledge, is it not monstrous that he >should applaud as a piece of pious ingenuity this detestable >instance of perjury and fraud?" What is the exact citaion for the 1822 Ellis article in Tras.AS? This old parchment episode is well known in tamil lit. Saiva saint Cuntarar's wedding and a TolkAppiyam commentary quote of an ancient poem describing the quarrels between potters and accountants. May be De Nobili & Ellis heard this from tamil vidhvans? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From SSRVJ at AOL.COM Fri Nov 19 12:51:13 1999 From: SSRVJ at AOL.COM (Somayaji Rajagopala) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 07:51:13 -0500 Subject: Background of the Sikh name `Singh'? Message-ID: <161227053831.23782.11662470134694164200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The title "Singh" derived from Simham or Singam to mean Lion - -is used by Non-Sikh Hindus also.- -Probably the word "Sikh" is derived from ' Sikh'sha= education/ training----' Sikh'shak=Guru or Great Teacher---and ' Sikh'shith=disciple/student and probably the respectful relationship between the Guru and the disciple and the "Upadesam"=training is inherently present in all the 3 syllables. From chouhan at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Nov 19 13:15:11 1999 From: chouhan at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Chouhan Electronic Informatics P Ltd.) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 08:15:11 -0500 Subject: Babaji In-Reply-To: <199910101842.UAA17666@runningman.mobilixnet.dk> Message-ID: <161227053833.23782.10771083674515338383.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, There have been a lot of comments on "Babaji" Mahanand Babaji, Mahavatar Babaji, Tatamabari Babaji Etc all supposed to be referring to the same? Babaji of "Autobiography of a Yogi" fame. I believe some thing to that extent was also indicated in the Himalayan Masters and other works...almost to the point of saying that he originated from Chidambaramin the South etc..... Can any one throw some light? This will be very much appreciated. Chouhan C.E.I From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 19 16:49:18 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 08:49:18 -0800 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053839.23782.16735020274426131289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > In tirunAvukkaracu's case, this name was coined for > him. So there was no need > to qualify his name with a place name. If we had a > good database of > inscriptions, one can look for ArUrc cuntaran2. > > In any case, we do find caGkaran2 accompanied by > place name in another > instance. SII 14, no. 144 has the following name > "..cEri ko/OTTaiyUrc > caGkaran2 civatEvapaTTac cOmAci". This inscription > is in Mannarkoyil in > Ambasamudram taluk in Tirunelveli district. It > mentions the scribe's name as > cURRi caGkaran2An2a camaiJcacappiriyan2. SII 14, > no.194 in Cermatevi in the > same taluk mentions one caGkaran2 kaNavati. Note > these places are in the same > western Tirunelveli region as kAlaTiccaGkaran2. SII > 14, no. 231 in > Vijayanarayanam, in Nanguneri taluk in Tirunelveli > District mentions a nampi > caGkaran2 vAcutEvan2. SII 5, no. 404 in nellaiyappar > temple mentions a > cEtuGkanATTuc caGkara nArAyaNamUrtti > tiruvELaikkARan2. SII 5, no. 412 in the > same temple mentions a caGkaranArAyaNap perumpilARu > in tirunelvEli. The same > inscription mentions caGkaran2pATiyAr who > contributed oil. SII 5, no. 437 in > the same temple mentions a vaTTamaNi caGkara > nArAyaNabhaTTan2. > > The popularity of caGkaran2 as a name in the > 12th-13th centuries in the > Tirunelveli area is beyond doubt. caGkaran2pATi is a > non-issue. It referred > to oil-pressers and was derived from cakra. The > interpretation of kAlaTi in > the meanings suggested can be ruled out. No person > of the status enjoyed by > the mazavarAyan2 is going to call his son a servant. > (kAlaTi literally means > "at the feet". In fact, precisely due to this, a > chieftain would not name > his child kAlaTi without the additional piece of > information provided by the > name caGkaran2. I do not think the place name kAlaTi > was as widely known as > ArUr.) So the rationale for the use of kAlaTi must > be that it referred to a > place. (Note there is no instance of kAlaTi being > used by an elite person as > a result of any vow or religious reason where they > deliberately choose a > negative name.) If at all one wants to give a name > meaning a servant of god > Sankara, then it has to caGkaran2 kAlaTi and not > kAlaTiccaGkaran2. > Redundancy in language is there to minimize > information loss in > communication. Given the status of the chieftain, > and the specific form > kAlaTiccaGkaran2, the conclusion is inescapable that > it referred to Sankara > of Kaladi. There is no justification to interpret > the components of "kAlaTic > caGkaran2" as being in any way different from those > of "ko/OTTaiyUrc > caGkaran2". > > Regards > S. Palaniappan > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 19 16:56:27 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 08:56:27 -0800 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053841.23782.16341535925954559374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the dummy msg. Send was pressed by mistake LS --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > wrote: > > In tirunAvukkaracu's case, this name was coined > for > > him. So there was no need > > to qualify his name with a place name. If we had a > > good database of > > inscriptions, one can look for ArUrc cuntaran2. > > > > In any case, we do find caGkaran2 accompanied by > > place name in another > > instance. SII 14, no. 144 has the following name > > "..cEri ko/OTTaiyUrc > > caGkaran2 civatEvapaTTac cOmAci". This inscription > > is in Mannarkoyil in > > Ambasamudram taluk in Tirunelveli district. It > > mentions the scribe's name as > > cURRi caGkaran2An2a camaiJcacappiriyan2. SII 14, > > no.194 in Cermatevi in the > > same taluk mentions one caGkaran2 kaNavati. Note > > these places are in the same > > western Tirunelveli region as kAlaTiccaGkaran2. > SII > > 14, no. 231 in > > Vijayanarayanam, in Nanguneri taluk in Tirunelveli > > District mentions a nampi > > caGkaran2 vAcutEvan2. SII 5, no. 404 in > nellaiyappar > > temple mentions a > > cEtuGkanATTuc caGkara nArAyaNamUrtti > > tiruvELaikkARan2. SII 5, no. 412 in the > > same temple mentions a caGkaranArAyaNap > perumpilARu > > in tirunelvEli. The same > > inscription mentions caGkaran2pATiyAr who > > contributed oil. SII 5, no. 437 in > > the same temple mentions a vaTTamaNi caGkara > > nArAyaNabhaTTan2. > > > > The popularity of caGkaran2 as a name in the > > 12th-13th centuries in the > > Tirunelveli area is beyond doubt. caGkaran2pATi is > a > > non-issue. It referred > > to oil-pressers and was derived from cakra. The > > interpretation of kAlaTi in > > the meanings suggested can be ruled out. No person > > of the status enjoyed by > > the mazavarAyan2 is going to call his son a > servant. > > (kAlaTi literally means > > "at the feet". In fact, precisely due to this, a > > chieftain would not name > > his child kAlaTi without the additional piece of > > information provided by the > > name caGkaran2. I do not think the place name > kAlaTi > > was as widely known as > > ArUr.) So the rationale for the use of kAlaTi must > > be that it referred to a > > place. (Note there is no instance of kAlaTi being > > used by an elite person as > > a result of any vow or religious reason where they > > deliberately choose a > > negative name.) If at all one wants to give a name > > meaning a servant of god > > Sankara, then it has to caGkaran2 kAlaTi and not > > kAlaTiccaGkaran2. > > Redundancy in language is there to minimize > > information loss in > > communication. Given the status of the chieftain, > > and the specific form > > kAlaTiccaGkaran2, the conclusion is inescapable > that > > it referred to Sankara > > of Kaladi. There is no justification to interpret > > the components of "kAlaTic > > caGkaran2" as being in any way different from > those > > of "ko/OTTaiyUrc > > caGkaran2". > > > > Regards > > S. Palaniappan > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 19 17:08:25 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 09:08:25 -0800 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053843.23782.6204673977275442287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Like kAlaTic caGkaran2, is perumpUtUr irAmAn2ucan2 mentioned anywhere? --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > In a message dated 11/3/99 5:39:38 PM Central Standard Time, > vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > > The earliest reference would probably be in the Sankaravijaya of Madhava, > > traditionally identified with Vidyaranya. > > In that case, the earliest reference linking Kaladi and Sankara is a Tamil > inscription that belongs to the 20th regnal year of mARavarman2 > cuntarapANtiyan2 I (1235-36 A.D.). The inscription (SII 5, no. 431) is in the > nellaiyappar temple in tirunelvEli in Tamilnadu. > > The interesting aspect of this inscription is that it does not refer to > Sankara directly. Instead, it refers to a Pandiyan official/chieftain who had > a linga installed at the temple in the following words: > > "kAlaTiccaGkaran azakiyaperumALAn2a mazavarAyar pUcittu ikkOyilil > AzrayalimgamAka ezuntaruLuvitta cokkan2Arkku.." > > Here a person has been named kAlaTiccaGkaran (Sankara of Kaladi). If we take > this person to be the father of azakiyaperumAL, the mazavarAyar, then the > father should have received the name probably towards the end of the 12th > century. From the details in the inscription, we know that the family > belonged to the western Tirunelveli region. So the name kAlaTi (Kaladi) did > not refer to the natal village of anybody in the chieftain's family. So, > unless we have a kAlaTi in tirunelvEli region, the person was indeed named > after Sankara of Kaladi. > > What is particularly interesting is that kAlaTiccaGkaran was a non-brahmin > official who would otherwise be called a veLLALa or zUdra. cEkkizAr, the > veLLALa minister of the Chola king, refers to veLLALas as zUdras in his > periyapurANam of the 12th century. Moreover, cEkkizAr was the one who called > a Chola king known for his impartial justice as "manu nIti". > > All these make one wonder if the veLLALas in the 12th century knew what > Sankara and Manu thought of the zUdras? Or was it just syncretism on the part > of kALaTiccaGkaran2's parents to name their son after Sankara of Kaladi? Or > was there a compromise between advaita and zaivasiddhAnta? Or had the idea of > Sankara as an avatAra of dakSiNAmUrti become so popular as to lead to his > acceptance even by devout zaivite veLLALas who would otherwise be opposed to > advaita? Coincidentally, western tirunelvEli region is also where we find > potiyil, the original locus of the dakSiNAmUrti cult. > > In any case, it is obvious that the value of Tamil inscriptions for > Indological research has been grossly underestimated till now. There is an > urgent need to publish and create a digitized data base of all the Tamil > inscriptions. Are there any Indologists to take up this cause? > > Regards > S. Palaniappan > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From christian.coseru at ANU.EDU.AU Thu Nov 18 22:48:47 1999 From: christian.coseru at ANU.EDU.AU (Christian Coseru) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 09:48:47 +1100 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works In-Reply-To: <19991118184531.39993.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053808.23782.5679164124078765539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:45 AM 11/18/99 PST, you wrote: >george9252 wrote: >>A colleague of mine has asked what 20th century work (book and/or article) >>of Eastern Philosophy would be a candidate for inclusion on such a list. >>His tone implied that the answer is "none." >>Does anyone on the Indology list have a suggestion and/or an opinion? Books that would make excellent candidates for the list in my opinion are: Jitendranath Mohanty : 1)_The Possibility of Transcendental Philosophy_, Dordrecht, Kluwer Academic Publishers, 1985 2)_Phenomenology and Ontology_, Den Haag, M. Nijhoff Sukharanjan Saha: 1)_Perspectives on Nyaya Logic and Epistemology_, Calcutta : K.P. Bagchi & Co., 1987 2)_Advaita Theory of Illusion_, Calcutta : Progressive Publishers, 1982 Sibajiban Bhattacharyya: 1)_Gangesa's Theory of Indeterminate Perception, New Delhi : Indian Council of Philosophical Research : Distributed by Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 1993-1996 (vol 1-2) Christian Coseru =========================================================== Faculty of Asian Studies Ph: 02-6249 4323 Asian History Centre Fax: 02-6279 8326 Australian National University christian.coseru at anu.edu.au http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/ahcen/coseru =========================================================== From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Nov 19 10:11:56 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 10:11:56 +0000 Subject: So.dhalanigha.n.tu In-Reply-To: <01bf30fc$17211880$LocalHost@carlos> Message-ID: <161227053820.23782.3739281523706147304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The plant lak.sma.naa is "a creeper having green leaves with red spots on them", and is identified with Ipomoea sepiaria Roxb (Convulvulaceae) according to PV Sharma's ed. of So.dhala. So.dhala's 7th varga begins with a description of this plant (which is said to aid fertility, etc. etc.). Balachandran and Sivarajan's Ayurvedic Drugs and their Plant Sources has an important article on Lak.sma.naa, and they identify it with Ipomoea marginata (Desr.) Verde., [the modern name of I. sepiaria], or with I. obscura (Linn.) Ker-Gawler. Their reference is to usage in Kerala. Lak.sma.naa is not Mandrake, in spite of this frequent identification by modern ayurvedic authors. Prof. Arjunwadkar's response covers everything else. On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Bruno Lo Turco wrote: > I have a question regarding the So.dhalanigha.n.tu: > what is meant by lak.sma.nAdi and anekArtha, which are the > names of the 7th and 8th > vargas of drugs listed in the first section (nAmasaGgraha) > of the work? -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Nov 19 10:14:53 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 10:14:53 +0000 Subject: Good book on Tantra and BhArtrhari In-Reply-To: <19991118021432.73192.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053825.23782.1635252682581464208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Harry Spier wrote: > Sphota Theory of Language, Coward, H.G. :Motilal Banarsidass It's perhaps worth noting that Coward's is written from a "study of religions" point of view, and he is interested in finding parallels between Indian ideas of spho.ta and, for example, St John's gospel on logos, etc. I would not say that Coward penetrates the Indian tradition on spho.ta very deeply. Best -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 19 19:00:47 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 11:00:47 -0800 Subject: Kaladi and Sankara Message-ID: <161227053844.23782.903552451359477402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> irAmAnucan, irAmAnuca munivan, yatirAcan, perumputUr munivan, pUtUrAn, perumputUr mAmuni etc are the typical references. I have not seen the common referent irAmAnucan qualified with perumputUr. Warm Regards, LS --- Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Like kAlaTic caGkaran2, is perumpUtUr irAmAn2ucan2 > mentioned > anywhere? > > > --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > wrote: > > In a message dated 11/3/99 5:39:38 PM Central > Standard Time, > > vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > > > > The earliest reference would probably be in the > Sankaravijaya of Madhava, > > > traditionally identified with Vidyaranya. > > > > In that case, the earliest reference linking > Kaladi and Sankara is a Tamil > > inscription that belongs to the 20th regnal year > of mARavarman2 > > cuntarapANtiyan2 I (1235-36 A.D.). The inscription > (SII 5, no. 431) is in the > > nellaiyappar temple in tirunelvEli in Tamilnadu. > > > > The interesting aspect of this inscription is that > it does not refer to > > Sankara directly. Instead, it refers to a Pandiyan > official/chieftain who had > > a linga installed at the temple in the following > words: > > > > "kAlaTiccaGkaran azakiyaperumALAn2a mazavarAyar > pUcittu ikkOyilil > > AzrayalimgamAka ezuntaruLuvitta cokkan2Arkku.." > > > > Here a person has been named kAlaTiccaGkaran > (Sankara of Kaladi). If we take > > this person to be the father of azakiyaperumAL, > the mazavarAyar, then the > > father should have received the name probably > towards the end of the 12th > > century. From the details in the inscription, we > know that the family > > belonged to the western Tirunelveli region. So the > name kAlaTi (Kaladi) did > > not refer to the natal village of anybody in the > chieftain's family. So, > > unless we have a kAlaTi in tirunelvEli region, the > person was indeed named > > after Sankara of Kaladi. > > > > What is particularly interesting is that > kAlaTiccaGkaran was a non-brahmin > > official who would otherwise be called a veLLALa > or zUdra. cEkkizAr, the > > veLLALa minister of the Chola king, refers to > veLLALas as zUdras in his > > periyapurANam of the 12th century. Moreover, > cEkkizAr was the one who called > > a Chola king known for his impartial justice as > "manu nIti". > > > > All these make one wonder if the veLLALas in the > 12th century knew what > > Sankara and Manu thought of the zUdras? Or was it > just syncretism on the part > > of kALaTiccaGkaran2's parents to name their son > after Sankara of Kaladi? Or > > was there a compromise between advaita and > zaivasiddhAnta? Or had the idea of > > Sankara as an avatAra of dakSiNAmUrti become so > popular as to lead to his > > acceptance even by devout zaivite veLLALas who > would otherwise be opposed to > > advaita? Coincidentally, western tirunelvEli > region is also where we find > > potiyil, the original locus of the dakSiNAmUrti > cult. > > > > In any case, it is obvious that the value of Tamil > inscriptions for > > Indological research has been grossly > underestimated till now. There is an > > urgent need to publish and create a digitized data > base of all the Tamil > > inscriptions. Are there any Indologists to take up > this cause? > > > > Regards > > S. Palaniappan > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Nov 19 10:30:17 1999 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 12:30:17 +0200 Subject: Mughal India Message-ID: <161227053827.23782.16146009778782185908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, This request came to me today. Unfortunately I don't have all the answers. Perhaps some of you can help. His email address is given below. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt>> >> >Envelope-to: edle.stang at east.uio.no >Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:00:48 +0100 (CET) >From: youri martini >Subject: Mughal India >To: edle.stang at east.uio.no >>YOURI MARTINI >>VIA ROMA 51 >>18010 SANTO STEFANO AL MARE >>IMPERIA >>ITALIA >> >> >> My name is Youri Martini. I am a student >>of the last >>course of modern history at the University of Genova >>(Italy). >>At the moment I'm getting together all kind of >>materials and authentic >>documents concerning the catholic churches and their >>movement of >>evangelization in India (XVI and XVII century) in >>order to write my degree thesis. >>My work is based on the analysis of Gentilesimo >>cofutato, a book >>written by a benedectin monk, don Clemente Tosi, in >>1669. I think >>this text was used as a handbook by catholic >>missionaries going to India. >>The main problem is my own deep ignorance of the >>actual location >>of towns and provinces in the ancient India Mughal. >>In addiction to it, the names of towns and provinces >>as we find >>them reported in Gentilesimo confutato are spelled in >>ancient Italian >>according to the way they were pronounced and not as >>they were actually >>written at the time and maybe nowadays as well. >>I therefore find myself without any positive >>geographical reference. >>I enclose a list including all towns and provinces >>quoted in the >>book, in order to give You a more detailed idea of >>what I mean. >>Moreover I'd like to have as many pieces of >>information as You >>can find, concerning the historical, economical and >>political background >>about the towns and provinces I mentioned above,dating >>back to Aurangzeb's time. >>Looking forward to receiving Your found answer . >> >> >> >>Yours faithfully >>Youri Martini >> >> >> >> >>IL GENTILESIMO CONFUTATO BY DON CLEMENTE TOSI >> >> >> >>PROVINCES AND TOWNS OF MUGHAL EMPIRE (AURANGZEB'S >>TIME) >> >> >> >> >>1)KABUL >> -towns: Kabul, Chere Cullouv(=Sher Gulab?, Charikar?) >> Gorebonda(=?) >> >>2)KANDAAR >> -town: Kandaar, Calabiche(=Qala Bist?), >>Chusechunam(=?), Cazicham(or Grees)(=?) >> -river: Sabaa(=?) >> -mountain: Corazan(=Khorasan?) >> >>3)MULTAN >> -towns: Multan, Catzan(=?), Dukeen(=?), Durves(=?) >> >>4)HAJACAN(=?) >> (desert) >> >>5)BAKER(=Bhakkar?, Baqir?) >> -towns: Baker(=?), Seivan(=Sehwan?) >> >>6)SINDH >> -towns: Tatta, Diul(=?) >> >>7)SORET(=?) >> -towns: Soret(=?), Ninovi(=Nadevi?), Cacha(=Katch?), >>Giangar(=?) >> >>8)GUJARAT >> -towns: Cambay, Mangerol(=Mangrol), Patan, Diu, >>Amadabat, Goga(=Gogha?), >> Sarques(=Sarkhej?), Campanel(=Champaner?), Surat, >>Daman(Damao), >>Goa, Bazain(Bassein), Dabul(=Dabhol?) >> >>9)CHITOR >> -towns: Chitor, Ratimpore(=Rathambhor) >> >>10)IESELMEERE(=Jaisalmer) >> -towns: Ieselmeere, Marum(=?) >> >>11)IENGAPOR(=?) >> -town: Ienupa(or Iengapor)(=?) >> >>12)KASHMIR >> -town: Shrinagar >> >>13)PANG-AB(=Punjab) >> -town: Lahor >> >>14)IENUBA(=?) >> -town: Ienba(=?) >> >>15)ATTAK(=Attok) >> -towns: Attak, Assam-Abdal(=Hasan Abdal) >> >>16)DELY(=Delhi) >> -towns: Sirynama(=?), Tanasar(=Thanesar?), Dely >> -river: Setmego(=?) >> >>17)BANDO(=Bandogarh?) >> -towns: Bando(or Biana), Mearta(=Merta?), >>Hendovune(=Hindaun?) >> -mountain: Marva(=?) >> >>18)BERAR(=?) >> -towns: Sarampore(=Serampur?), Sirange(=Shrangam?) >> >>19)MALVA(=Malwa) >> -towns: Ugen(=Ujjain?), Calleada(=?) >> -river: Cepra(=Kshipra?) >> >>20)KANDISC(Khandesh) >> -towns: Mandoa(=Mandu?), Hassare(=?), >> Tualnere(=Thalner),Brodera(or Radiapore)(=Baroda?, >>Broda?) >> >>21)GVALIOR(=Gwalior) >> -town: Gvalior >> >>22)NARVAAR(=Narwar?) >> -town: Gelmol(=?) >> >>23)PURROPIA(=Purabia?) >> -towns: Agra, Duolpore(=Dholpur), >>Fettipore(=Fatehpur), Secandra(Sikandra?), >>Itay(Etawah?), Ilavas(or Halebasse)(=Allahabad?) >> >>24)BAKAR(=?) >> -towns: Cannove(=Kinaur?), Bikanaer, >>Lacannove(=Lucknow?), Ouden(Audh?), >>Iounpore(=Jaunpur?) >> >>25)SENEBAL(or DO-AB)(=?) >> -towns: Sambal(=Chambal?), Sansaram(=Sassaram?), >>Anavas(=?) >> >>26)PATNA >> -town: Potan >> >>27)NAGRACUT(=Nagarcot?) >> -town: Nakarkar(=Nagatcot?) >> >>28)BANSISK(=?) >> -town: Behisur(=?) >> >>29)SIBA(=(Shiva?) >> -town: Harduavir(=Hardwar?) >> >>30)KAKARES(=?) >> -towns: Kakares(=?), Pulhora(=?), Dankaler(=?) >> -mountain: Dalanguer(=?) >> >>31)GOR(=?) >> -town: Gor >> -river: Perselly(=?) >> >>32)PEYTAN(=Paithan?) >> -town: Peytan >> -river: Kanda(=?) >> >>33)KANDVANA(=Godwana?) >> -town: Karabatek(=?) >> >>34)ISUAL(=?) >> -town: Raipore(=Raipur?) >> >>35)MEUSAT(=?) >> -town: Narnel(=Narnaul?) >> >>36)UDEZA(=Vidisha?) >> -town: Iekanar(=?) >> >>37)BENGALA(including twelve provinces) >> -towns: Banaros(=Varanasi?), Patana(Patna?), >>Moguer(=Monghyr?), >>Rajamol(=Rajamahal?), Govro(=Gaur?), >>Baligata(=Ballighat?), Katabro(=?), >>Bulva(=?), Chatigan(=Chatgaon?), Siripur(=Sirpur?), >>Noricul(=?), >>Tamboli(=?), Daka(=Dhaka), Solimanas(=?), Bacala(=?), >>Mussammabazar(=Kasimbazar?), >>Satagan(=Satgaon?), Ugulim(=Hooghly?), Pequeno(=?), >>Angelim(=?), >>Balassor, Pipli, Cateka(=Cuttack?), Aripur(=?), >>Piplipatan(=?), >>Narsingapatan(=?), Mussulapatan(=Masulipatan), >>Arcipur(=?), Midinimpur(=Midnapur?), >>Ramaxandrapur(=Rajamahendri?), Ialassor(=Jalesar?), >>Narangor(=?), Burdua(=Burdwan?), Banja(=?) >> -river: Ader(=?) >> -islands: Kandekan(=?), Sagor >> >>38)DECAN >> -towns: Obatebal(=?), Deder(=?) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>===== >> >>______________________________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it >> >> >> >Kontorsjef Edle Stang >Institutt for ?steuropeiske og orientalske studier >Postboks 1030, 0315 Blindern >Telefon: 22 85 69 79 >Fax: 22 85 41 40 > *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From kekai at JPS.NET Fri Nov 19 20:34:34 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 12:34:34 -0800 Subject: bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053804.23782.9316912642103874691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: > > <<< > I agree that the bones/flesh division is pan-Indian. I was actually > commenting on the formative input by the Mundas on Buddhist tantras, > quite apart from this question. In passing, I also agree with Paul > Manansala's comments -- it's a pity the the Munda contribution to > various aspects of Indian culture is played down -- after all, they > seem to have been in India longer than "newcomers" like the > Indo-Eurpeans and the Dravidians. > >>> > > For the formative input on tantras from Dravidian side, pl. consult > R. Nagaswamy, Tantric cult of South India, Delhi, 1982, 250 p. > > Any ideas when Dravidians entered India? > > Prof. Witzel, Substrates in OIA, 1999, p. 14 > "Munda originally had no retroflexes". > On the same page, "In short, the people of the (northern) > Indus language must have spoken with retroflexes". > Last I read, the idea that Munda did not originally have retroflexes is based on the fact that retroflexes are not universal in Munda, with one language given as an exception. This theory does not take linguistic drift into adequate account. > Deciphering the Indus script, p. 166 has "Fig. 9-3. > Major linguistic areas in South Asia as defined by the retroflex > systems; also, the distribution of the inclusive/exclusive > distinction in the pronoun of the first person plural. > Based on the ongoing researches of Bertil Tikkanen." Also, the use of initial retroflexes in Munda and "Aryan" languages as opposed to the non-initial retroflex system in the south. -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 19 20:54:56 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 12:54:56 -0800 Subject: kUlavatI Message-ID: <161227053853.23782.540612686022577984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> kUlavatii river is given in Monier-Williams. Which purana mentions this river? Is it a legendary or real one? What is the traditional explanation of the name, godAvari? Consider kUlam 'grains' and *kOLam > ta. cOLam and brahui xolam. Is *kOLaviri > *gODaavari > godAvari admissible?? (cf. kAvEri and ta. kAviri). Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ellraven at WXS.NL Fri Nov 19 13:41:06 1999 From: ellraven at WXS.NL (Ellen M. Raven) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 13:41:06 +0000 Subject: Mughal India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227053830.23782.17154277593931501527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I expect that studying the atlas of Mughal history (I know it exists, because the Kern Institute library has a copy) can solve at least a part of the identifcation problems? Ellen Raven From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 19 21:58:16 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 13:58:16 -0800 Subject: kUlavatI Message-ID: <161227053858.23782.4360832564399576693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > kUlavatii river is given in Monier-Williams. Which purana > mentions this river? Is it a legendary or real one? > > What is the traditional explanation of the name, godAvari? > > Consider kUlam 'grains' and *kOLam > ta. cOLam and brahui xolam. > Is *kOLaviri > *gODaavari > godAvari admissible?? (cf. kAvEri and > ta. kAviri). > It should be noted that in Tamil the concepts of water and water bodies are frequently associated with roots meaning "to spread". Cf. Ta. viri = to spread. Also consider Ta.pAyam for "water" where Ta. pAy = to spread or flow. EVen the ocean is called Ta. "paravai" < Ta. para = to spread, to expand. paravai otl paravai paravai 1. expanse, extent, extension, plane surface, breadth; 2. sea, ocean; 3. dance; 4. that which is spread, as grain on floor; 5. wall; 6. shoal; 7. stagnant water, as in pools paravu-tal otl paravu-tal paravu-tal 01 to spread; 1. to lay open to view, as goods in a bazaar; 2. to say, declare; 3. to praise, extol; 4. to worship, reverence, adore; 5. to sing > Regards, > N. Ganesan > Regards, Chandra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Nov 19 20:26:52 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 15:26:52 -0500 Subject: [Cathy Drake : Job Posting] Message-ID: <161227053852.23782.826559782684017293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --------------------- Job description of an Assistant Professor in the Department of Linguistics to begin in August 2000 in the area of South Asian linguistics with focus on Hindi The Department of Linguistics of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign is seeking to fill a full-time tenure-track position at the rank of Assistant Professor in South Asian linguistics to begin August 21, 2000. Salary is commensurate with experience. Candidates should have a strong commitment to teaching and research in South Asian linguistics with a focus on Hindi. The successful candidate is expected to teach and supervise Hindi language instruction, develop the curriculum, direct dissertations on Hindi and other South Asian languages, and teach and conduct research in other areas of the candidate's interest. Applicants must have a Ph. D. in hand by August 21, 2000. Full consideration will be given to those who submit the following documents by February 1, 2000. Those candidates who plan to attend the annual LSA meeting in January in Chicago may contact us to arrange for an informal discussion about the position with a member of the search committee at the meeting. Letter of application including a statement about research interests and professional accomplishments. Curriculum vitae Three letters of recommendation Sample(s) of research Send application materials to: Prof. Chin W. Kim, Chair Search Committee in SA Linguistics Department of Linguistics University of Illinois 707 S. Mathews Avenue Urbana, IL 61801 For further information, please call or write: 217-333-3563, 217-333-3466(Fax); cwkim at uiuc.edu The University of Illinois is an Affirmative Action, Equal Opportunity Employer From jim at RAWLINGSFARM.DEMON.CO.UK Fri Nov 19 14:31:04 1999 From: jim at RAWLINGSFARM.DEMON.CO.UK (James Mallinson) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 15:31:04 +0100 Subject: KhecarIvidyA Message-ID: <161227053837.23782.14503240461924328462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ramesh, You are welcome to see my work but it's not quite finished yet. I hope to submit my thesis within a couple of months. It's a critical edition (from 25 manuscripts) and annotated translation of the text. I spent a few years in India living with yogis so I've included some of their advice in the notes. There's also an introduction in which I describe the origins of the text and how it has changed plus a chapter on how the practise of khecarImudrA has roots in practises described in the Buddhist Pali Canon and tantric texts, and how it developed the exalted position it holds in haThayoga. The thesis is typeset using TeX. If you're familiar with that then I could send you the files by e-mail otherwise it will have to be snail mail. Yours, James. ---------- >From: "Chouhan Electronic Informatics P Ltd." >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: bhaTa and naTa >Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999, 5:18 pm > >Dear James, >Id love to see your work... will it be possible > > >Ramesh Singh Chouhan, MD PhD > > > From kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM Fri Nov 19 23:53:29 1999 From: kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM (Krishna Kalale) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 15:53:29 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed Message-ID: <161227053864.23782.8571941745936383445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone help me with a list of text books which I can use to teach sanskrit. I am trying to teach 2 levels - beginners, and intermediate. I studied using Indian books long time back. I am trying to teach here in US so that children and adults can learn the language. I guess an english- version would be good for students to follow. I dont know where to look. thanks Krishna Kalale From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 20 01:09:38 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 17:09:38 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed Message-ID: <161227053875.23782.7336791953007824814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Ulrike, Long time, no see! How is Singapore? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Fri Nov 19 22:30:09 1999 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 17:30:09 -0500 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works Message-ID: <161227053860.23782.1157507531007093446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "The names which come to my mind representing modern Japanese philosophy or the major spiritual teachers of modern India cannot really compete with Wittgenstein and Heidegger in terms of innovative thought currents and impact on academia (however potentially flawed)." How about Nishida's INQUIRY INTO THE GOOD? gc ----- Original Message ----- From: Marilyn L. Sarelas To: Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 5:52 PM Subject: Re: "Top Five" Philosophy Works I assisted with the bibliography for Ninian Smart's World Philosophies (New York: Routledge, 1999). The bibliography is divided by chapter headings. In addition to the bibliographies for all the traditional philosophical settings (chapters on South Asian, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Greek-Roman-Near Eastern, Islamic, Jewish, European, and North American philosophies), there are bibliographies for some of the modern non-Euro-American contexts (chapters on the philosophies of Latin America, Modern Islam, Modern South and South-east Asia, China, Korea and Japan in Modern Times, and Africa). If there are non-Euro-American contenders for your list of the top five philosophy books of the 20th century, some of them should appear in those bibliographies. Philosophy has been slow to expand into a global context, for reasons that are interesting to contemplate. In the ancient setting the philosophical contributions of India and China are easily discerned. The outstanding contributions to human thought in the 20th century--in a global context--are much more difficult to evaluate, and do not necessarily coincide with the value perspectives of philosophy departments. But you have posed an interesting question. The names which come to my mind representing modern Japanese philosophy or the major spiritual teachers of modern India cannot really compete with Wittgenstein and Heidegger in terms of innovative thought currents and impact on academia (however potentially flawed). I'm not sure what Rawls is doing in that list, and a few of the articles are certainly debatable. But note also the problem of women thinkers... From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Fri Nov 19 22:31:25 1999 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 17:31:25 -0500 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works Message-ID: <161227053862.23782.5217038806424226295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How about Radhakrishnan's AN IDEALIST VIEW OF LIFE? GC ----- Original Message ----- From: Christian Coseru To: Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 5:48 PM Subject: Re: "Top Five" Philosophy Works > At 10:45 AM 11/18/99 PST, you wrote: > >george9252 wrote: > > >>A colleague of mine has asked what 20th century work (book and/or article) > >>of Eastern Philosophy would be a candidate for inclusion on such a list. > >>His tone implied that the answer is "none." > > >>Does anyone on the Indology list have a suggestion and/or an opinion? > > > > Books that would make excellent candidates for the list in my opinion are: > > Jitendranath Mohanty : > 1)_The Possibility of Transcendental Philosophy_, Dordrecht, Kluwer > Academic Publishers, 1985 > 2)_Phenomenology and Ontology_, Den Haag, M. Nijhoff > > Sukharanjan Saha: > 1)_Perspectives on Nyaya Logic and Epistemology_, Calcutta : K.P. Bagchi & > Co., 1987 > 2)_Advaita Theory of Illusion_, Calcutta : Progressive Publishers, 1982 > > Sibajiban Bhattacharyya: > 1)_Gangesa's Theory of Indeterminate Perception, New Delhi : Indian Council > of Philosophical Research : Distributed by Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, > 1993-1996 (vol 1-2) > > > Christian Coseru > > > =========================================================== > Faculty of Asian Studies Ph: 02-6249 4323 > Asian History Centre Fax: 02-6279 8326 > Australian National University christian.coseru at anu.edu.au > http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/ahcen/coseru > =========================================================== From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 20 03:45:35 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 19:45:35 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed Message-ID: <161227053883.23782.4502029966991354092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sanskrit Subodhini of Dr. Madhav Deshpande is a very refreshing edition. It is in English-Sanskrit ----Original Message Follows---- From: Krishna Kalale Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:53:29 -0800 Can anyone help me with a list of text books which I can use to teach sanskrit. I am trying to teach 2 levels - beginners, and intermediate. I studied using Indian books long time back. I am trying to teach here in US so that children and adults can learn the language. I guess an english- version would be good for students to follow. I dont know where to look. thanks Krishna Kalale ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Nov 19 19:47:56 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 19:47:56 +0000 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works Message-ID: <161227053848.23782.13807700611619896510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Panini's Grammar. You mean the twentieth century reincarnation ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge > At 12:32 PM 11/18/1999 -0500, you wrote: > > In a recent Baruch College poll of philosophers (I don't know who was > >included), the following were named as the top five books and the top five > >articles in philosophy in the 20th century: From kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM Sat Nov 20 05:56:43 1999 From: kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM (Krishna Kalale) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 21:56:43 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed Message-ID: <161227053885.23782.7913340349906830917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Where is can I buy this book from Dr. Madhava Deshpande? thanks Krishna -----Original Message----- From: Vishal Agarwal [SMTP:vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 7:46 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Sanskrit text books info needed Sanskrit Subodhini of Dr. Madhav Deshpande is a very refreshing edition. It is in English-Sanskrit ----Original Message Follows---- From: Krishna Kalale Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:53:29 -0800 Can anyone help me with a list of text books which I can use to teach sanskrit. I am trying to teach 2 levels - beginners, and intermediate. I studied using Indian books long time back. I am trying to teach here in US so that children and adults can learn the language. I guess an english- version would be good for students to follow. I dont know where to look. thanks Krishna Kalale ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From saradesh at GATEWAY.NET Sat Nov 20 06:11:59 1999 From: saradesh at GATEWAY.NET (saradesh) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 22:11:59 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: Sanskrit text books info needed] Message-ID: <161227053887.23782.13913833405294383214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> saradesh wrote: > > Sanskrit Manual for High Schools by Antoine works well for us. (We > teach it at the Vedanta Society and have found it the easiest for > Americans to work from once they have learnt the Devanagari. It is in > English and does not presuppose either a background in classical > languages, or a linguistic background. It is available in the US from > Nataraj in Virginia or Vedanta Catalog at Vedanta.com. > > Krishna Kalale wrote: > > > > Where is can I buy this book from Dr. Madhava Deshpande? > > > > thanks > > Krishna > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vishal Agarwal [SMTP:vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM] > > Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 7:46 PM > > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > Subject: Re: Sanskrit text books info needed > > > > Sanskrit Subodhini of Dr. Madhav Deshpande is a very refreshing edition. It > > is in English-Sanskrit > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > From: Krishna Kalale > > Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed > > Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:53:29 -0800 > > > > Can anyone help me with a list of text books which I can use to teach > > sanskrit. I am trying to teach 2 levels - beginners, and intermediate. I > > studied using Indian books long time back. I am trying to teach here in US > > so that children and adults can learn the language. I guess an english- > > version would be good for students to follow. I dont know where to look. > > > > thanks > > > > Krishna Kalale > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 2697 URL: From pradip2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Nov 20 01:49:50 1999 From: pradip2000 at YAHOO.COM (Gabriel) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 22:49:50 -0300 Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed Message-ID: <161227053877.23782.5131842548336664031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friend, This is Gabriel, from The Sanskrit Web Site (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3502/index.html). Go to http://www.vedanta.org They have a catalog on line, search for Sanskrit Studies or something. You can buy books on line or by sending a money order. Good luck and keep teaching Sanskrit. Gabriel ----- Mensaje original ----- De: Krishna Kalale Para: Enviado: Viernes, Noviembre 19, 1999 08:53 PM Asunto: Sanskrit text books info needed > Can anyone help me with a list of text books which I can use to teach > sanskrit. I am trying to teach 2 levels - beginners, and intermediate. I > studied using Indian books long time back. I am trying to teach here in US > so that children and adults can learn the language. I guess an english- > version would be good for students to follow. I dont know where to look. > > thanks > > Krishna Kalale From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Nov 19 23:48:33 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 23:48:33 +0000 Subject: bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053866.23782.2694053043081163995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Naga Ganesan > For the formative input on tantras from Dravidian side, pl. consult > R. Nagaswamy, Tantric cult of South India, Delhi, 1982, 250 p. Thank's again for the reference. > > Any ideas when Dravidians entered India ? I cannot pretend to be a expert in this matter at all but Prof. Witzel's hypothesis in his Substrates in OIA seems to have merit. I have a philologist friend who compiled the first Tamil_russian dictionary a while back. He is of the opinion that i) Dravidian is not the language of the Indus Culture and ii) that the Dravidians originally migrated from somewhere in Central Asia (I have not had the benefit of his detailed reasoning for this view) > Looking at Tikkanen's retroflexion map, the retroflexion is > in the direction of Northwest to the South, and NOT from > Northwest to the East. If originally Indus language had > retroflexes, does Tikkanen's findings give a clue to > the original (northern) Indus language? The short answer is, I don't know. However I suspect that the Indus language has strong links to Sumerian and also Austronesian. Have you also seen Malati Shendge's recent book "The Language of the Harrapans". She has the interesting theory that there was also a strong Akkadian influence on this language which was taken over into the language of the Rg Veda. In particular she draws attention to the names of the various Asuras which she links to Akkadian names. She also believes that Asura is linked via Asur to the Assyrians. Probably very contentious but still worth a look. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Nov 19 23:53:06 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 99 23:53:06 +0000 Subject: bones and flesh Message-ID: <161227053867.23782.10493839434592087664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > I have no problems with the Munda contributions; The problem is > when experts in old and new IE, IIr, IA with their deep expertise > of those texts treat Munda and Dravidian on par. Probably because > they are not that knowledgeable of either Munda or Dravidian texts. > At times, the Munda explanations have an equally valid Dravidian > ones which are ignored. > > Probably you will agree that Dravidian philology is not > as advanced as that of Sanskrit due to various reasons in Europe > for the last 200 yrs. Along with D. Stampe's Munda etymological > dictionary, Dravidian texts' study has to adavnce lot further > for a proper (re)evaluation of the Indian past. I agree entirely. The prospect of what might be discovered is very exciting. I believe when ultimately (if ever) the relationship between each of these languages becomes clarified we are all going to be surprised somewhat. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU Sat Nov 20 07:24:23 1999 From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt Thorp) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 01:24:23 -0600 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works In-Reply-To: <004301bf31ea$f33e06e0$be7f0a3f@win95> Message-ID: <161227053846.23782.10083674886966358601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Panini's Grammar. At 12:32 PM 11/18/1999 -0500, you wrote: > In a recent Baruch College poll of philosophers (I don't know who was >included), the following were named as the top five books and the top five >articles in philosophy in the 20th century: The Top Five Books: 1. >Wittgenstein, Philosophical Investigations 2. Heidegger, Being and Time 3. >Rawls, A Theory of Justice 4. Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus >& Whitehead, Principia Mathematica The Top Five Articles: 1. Quine, >"Two Dogmas of Empiricism" 2. Russell, "On Denoting" 3. Godel, "On Formally >Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica& Related Systems" & >Formalized Languages" & the Philosophy of Mind" As you can see, the >lists contain nothing at all from Eastern Philosophy. implied that >the answer is "none." > Does anyone on the Indology list have a suggestion and/or an opinion? > Dr. George Cronk & Religion Bergen Community College (NJ) From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Nov 20 02:28:42 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 02:28:42 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed Message-ID: <161227053879.23782.5441990232568985470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ulrike Nilklas wrote: > There is a very good German textbook which is now also available in English: > > A. F. Stenzler "Primer of the Sanskrit language" translated into English ... > by Renate Soehnen-Thieme. University of London, School of Oriental and > African Studies, 1997. > You can get it directly from SOAS. I cannot agree. This is an extremely outdated and pedagogically backward book that all the Sanskrit students at SOAS hate using. I am told that they all privately use other textbooks. In my view it would be quite unsuitable for the purpose in hand. Michael Coulson's introduction to Sanskrit in the Teach Yourself Books series is useful and I have recently seen an interesting primer designed for children of high school age and above -- J.S.Sheldon, Reading Sanskrit: A Course for Beginners (1998), Sydney Grammar School ISBN 0 646 34837 X. WalterMaurer's two volume book (Curzon Press) is also good but extremely expensive. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU Sat Nov 20 09:00:39 1999 From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt Thorp) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 03:00:39 -0600 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works In-Reply-To: <008501bf32c7$1c324340$8e4f883e@default> Message-ID: <161227053856.23782.9598666645759716897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Implicit in Panini (and sometimes explicit in his school) is a philosophy and a logic that predates Wittgenstein and modern linguistic philosophy, or so one could argue. My former teacher, Hartmut Scharfe, used to teach Panini as part of his undergraduate course on Indian Philosophy at UCLA. At 07:47 PM 11/19/1999 -0000, you wrote: >> Panini's Grammar. > >You mean the twentieth century reincarnation ? > >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge > >> At 12:32 PM 11/18/1999 -0500, you wrote: >> > In a recent Baruch College poll of philosophers (I don't know >who was >> >included), the following were named as the top five books and the >top five >> >articles in philosophy in the 20th century: > > From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sat Nov 20 02:14:03 1999 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 03:14:03 +0100 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works Message-ID: <161227053881.23782.5931937530759727351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Burt Thorp wrote: > Implicit in Panini (and sometimes explicit in his school) is a philosophy > and a logic that predates Wittgenstein and modern linguistic philosophy, or > so one could argue. My former teacher, Hartmut Scharfe, used to teach > Panini as part of his undergraduate course on Indian Philosophy at UCLA. > > At 07:47 PM 11/19/1999 -0000, you wrote: > >> Panini's Grammar. > > > >You mean the twentieth century reincarnation ? > > > >Best wishes, > >Stephen Hodge I believe Stephen Hodge's question targeted Panini's date, and not the value of his contribution to philosophy - Panini is not a 20th century philosopher, and the list that prompted this exchange referred specifically to philosophical works of the 20th century. Best, -- Birgit Kellner Institut fuer Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Universitaet Wien Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies / Vienna University From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 20 14:27:58 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 06:27:58 -0800 Subject: Parasol in India Message-ID: <161227053898.23782.13302701370124456258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apart from "vEntu tozil ayarum"(puR. 285.7), vEntu can be analyzed in: 1) maNNuRu muracin2 vEntu tozil viTin2E (aiG. 443.5) 2) Entu kOTTu yAn2ai vEntu tozil viTTen2a (aiG. 498.3) 3) vEntu viTu vizu tozil oziya (aiG. 428.3) 4) vEntu viTu vizu tozil eyti (aiG. 466.1) 5) Entiya koLkaiyar cIRin2 iTaimurintu vEntan2um vEntu keTum (kuRaL) vEntu appears to be a noun and possibly from the verb, vEy. uvavumati uruvin2 OGkal veNkuTai nilavukkaTal varaippin2 maNNakam nizaRRa (puR. 3.1-2) (These lines describe the white parasol's covering aspect). maNTu amar aTTa matan2 uTai nOn2 tAL veL kuTai viLakkum viRal kezu vEntE! (puR. 212.1-2) These lines describe the restraining aspects of the king and the parasol. The chief dancer in the kulanAyakam temple of the rulers was called "talaikkOli", The "talaikkOl" is a decorative wand made out of the stem of the vanquished rival's parasol and, is the highest award given to the winner in the bharata nAtyam competition by the king. This "talaikkOl" award is vividly described in CilappatikAram and, 100s of "talaikkOli"s, top dancers are attested in Pallava and Chola epigraphy. Nallur Nataraja dancing on a squatting dwarf sports this talaikkOl in one of his hands. >?From Peruntokai, some rare old poems culled from different sources on the royal parasol: pakal eRippatu en2kolO? pAn2mati en2RaJci ikalaraNattu uLLavar ellAm - akanaliya viNtaJcam en2n2a virintakuTai nATkoLLak kaNTaJcic cumpuLittAr kaN. (King's candra-like parasol spreads hot rays on his foes) mantaraG kAmpA maNivicum pOlaiyAt tiGka LataRkOr tilatamA - veGkaNu muRRunIr vaiya muzutu nizaRRumE koRRappOrk kiLLi kuTai. aRanIrmai tAGki yaLapparitAy vAn2ap puRanIrpOn2 muRRum potiyum - piRarovvA mUvEnta ruLLu mutalvEntan2 muttamizkkuk kOvEntan2 kaNTan2 kuTai. On ViirapaNDyan's coronation (TenkAsi temple inscription): cENulavu veNTiGkaT celvan2en2at taNNen2Ru nINilamO rEzu nizaRRumE - pENivantu pUvEnta rEttum pukazvIra pANTiyan2aG kOvEntan2 koRRak kuTai Turning from literature to art, probably the first parasol on a king is in a 200 B.C Indo-Greek coin. "representaions of Vishnu is the figure on a coin from Ai-Khanum issued by the Indo-Greek king Agathocles in 200 B.C. which was excavated by P. Bernard. The figure wears a skirt-like vertically ribbed dress falling just below his knees, an uttariya attached to his shoulders, large earrings, half-boots with curved sole-ends and a helmet-shaped headdress adorned with two floating ribbons, surmounted by a large transversal aigrette which formsa kind of umbrella over the figure. The figure holds a chakra in the left hand and a pear shaped object in the right. This has been described as a vase (maNDala) but it appears to be a conch. A sword hangs from a cross belt. The legend in the Brahmi script reads as "rajane" and agnthuklayesha(Agathuklayesha). The umbrella suggests the vAjapeya ceremony celebrated at an emperor's assumption of universal sovereignty (fig. 71)." (p. 84, Nanditha Krishna, The art and iconography of Vishnu-Narayana, Bombay). The eastern torana at Sanchi, Jaggayapeta Chakravarti panel at Madras museum, the Amaravati limestone panel at the British museum with Buddha's leaving the palace, Mahavira representaions also have the royal parasol. There is a beautiful color painting of Parvati standing under a parasol in the Pallavan tAlagiriisavra temple at Panaimalai (D. Barrett, Indian painting). Geeta Bharathan asked: >Was there a single type of parasol that was invented and spread from >a single location, or were there different kinds? Were Indian >parasols made the same way as, say, Japanese parasols? The standard opinion is that the parasol was invented in China in 4th century AD (see Note 1). Given the fact that parasols are an integral part of India from the Northwest to Southern sangam texts from 2nd century BC at the very minimum and linguistic analysis by Palaniappan pointing very much back in time and that by 4th century Buddhism has established itself well in Wei dynasty China, it is likely that Indian parasol reached China. Please help me with the name of the article/book(s) where Jan Gonda discusses Indian kingship? Thanks. Regards, N. Ganesan Note 1: Great Inventions Through History, G. Messadi'e, Chambers Compact Reference, 1991 (Les grandes inventions de l'humanitie) p. 71 " Parasol, Anon., China, 4th century ------------------------------------ The first parasols appeared in the 4th century in China under the Wei dynasty. They were made of oiled paper stuck on to flexible ribs and were used for protection from the rain as much as from the sun. They were therefore designed on the model of the umbrellas which had preceded them by about four centuries." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 20 16:14:23 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 08:14:23 -0800 Subject: Avalokita's vase Message-ID: <161227053906.23782.1795768517440876452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Avalokiteshvara is often portrayed with a small vase in his hand. Look at Guanyin, the Goddess of mercy, sculptures/pgs. Earlier 7-8th century bronzes in Lanka, Thailand also hold a vase. Nagapattinam bronzes too. The Gandavyuha panel in Borobudur has a different style where avalokita is seated cross-legged holding a kamaNDala. Dakshinamurti panels in Tamilakam have small kamaNDalams hanging from the banyan tree. I think P. L. Samy has an article on Dakshinamurti and the karakam from CT texts. Have an art history question: What is the explanation from texts like sAdhanamAlA on the vase held in Avalokita's hand? Thanks for your guidance, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG Sat Nov 20 00:33:50 1999 From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 08:33:50 +0800 Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed Message-ID: <161227053869.23782.8870278640590685940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a very good German textbook which is now also available in English: A. F. Stenzler "Primer of the Sanskrit language" translated into English ... by Renate Soehnen-Thieme. University of London, School of Oriental and African Studies, 1997. You can get it directly from SOAS. Ulrike -----Original Message----- From: Krishna Kalale [mailto:kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM] Sent: Saturday, November 20, 1999 7:53 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed Can anyone help me with a list of text books which I can use to teach sanskrit. I am trying to teach 2 levels - beginners, and intermediate. I studied using Indian books long time back. I am trying to teach here in US so that children and adults can learn the language. I guess an english- version would be good for students to follow. I dont know where to look. thanks Krishna Kalale From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG Sat Nov 20 00:37:53 1999 From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 08:37:53 +0800 Subject: F. W. Ellis Message-ID: <161227053871.23782.3355351152938408679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: N. Ganesan [mailto:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 11:05 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: F. W. Ellis Lately, I am getting interested in knowing more about Francis Whyte Ellis. He seems to be much more enlightened than his contemporaries and he wrote separate essays on Malayalam, Telugu and Tamil. How many of these survive? I hear that his papers are in the British library, it will be great to publish them. Usually, the Anthology of Solitary verses (tan2ippATaRRiraTTu) end with the poems by Ellis. Iravatham Mahadevan has published the die block in Madras mint Ellis made for the East India company coin which has Tiruvalluvar on it. Possibly the first portrayal of Tiruvalluvar available?? I have discovered two akaval poems, 1) by Ellis who wrote this after a terrible drought, he dug up several wells in Madras and 2) on his cemetery in Dindugal. >De Nobili put out the fiction that he was a "Roman Brahmin" -- >Romaca Brahmana was the title he gave out. Francis Ellis, in his >contribution to the 1822 Transactions of the Asiatic Society, >explained, "Nobili, who was looked upon by the Jesuits as the chief >apostle of the Indians after Francois Xavier, took incredible pains >to acquire a knowledge of the religion, customs, and language of >Madura, sufficient for the purposes of his ministry. But this was >not all: for to stop the mouths of his opposers and particularly of >those who treated his character of Brachman as an imposture, he >produced an old, dirty parchment in which he had forged, in the >ancient Indian characters, a deed, showing that the Brachmans of >Rome were of much older date than those of India and that the >Jesuits of Rome descended, in a direct line from the god Brama. >Nay, Father Jouvence, a learned Jesuit, tells us, in the history of >his order, something yet more remarkable; even that Robert De >Nobili, when the authenticity of his smoky parchment was called in >question by some Indian unbelievers, declared, upon oath, before the >assembly of the Brachmans of Madura, that he (Nobili) derived really >and truly his origin from the god Brama. Is it not astonishing that >this Reverend Father should acknowledge, is it not monstrous that he >should applaud as a piece of pious ingenuity this detestable >instance of perjury and fraud?" What is the exact citaion for the 1822 Ellis article in Tras.AS? This old parchment episode is well known in tamil lit. Saiva saint Cuntarar's wedding and a TolkAppiyam commentary quote of an ancient poem describing the quarrels between potters and accountants. May be De Nobili & Ellis heard this from tamil vidhvans? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG Sat Nov 20 01:00:38 1999 From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 09:00:38 +0800 Subject: F. W. Ellis Message-ID: <161227053873.23782.16563739587211247404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ... sorry - I must have pressed the wrong button. Ulrike From bijlert at LETMAIL.LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sat Nov 20 17:15:54 1999 From: bijlert at LETMAIL.LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Vittorio A. van Bijlert) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 09:15:54 -0800 Subject: Mughal India Message-ID: <161227053889.23782.8562605015129502021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruth Laila Schmidt To: Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 2:30 AM Subject: Mughal India Dear members of the list, This request came to me today. Unfortunately I don't have all the answers. Perhaps some of you can help. His email address is given below. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt>> >> >Envelope-to: edle.stang at east.uio.no >Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:00:48 +0100 (CET) >From: youri martini >Subject: Mughal India >To: edle.stang at east.uio.no >>YOURI MARTINI >>VIA ROMA 51 >>18010 SANTO STEFANO AL MARE >>IMPERIA >>ITALIA >> >> >> My name is Youri Martini. I am a student >>of the last >>course of modern history at the University of Genova >>(Italy). >>At the moment I'm getting together all kind of >>materials and authentic >>documents concerning the catholic churches and their >>movement of >>evangelization in India (XVI and XVII century) in >>order to write my degree thesis. >>My work is based on the analysis of Gentilesimo >>cofutato, a book >>written by a benedectin monk, don Clemente Tosi, in >>1669. I think >>this text was used as a handbook by catholic >>missionaries going to India. >>The main problem is my own deep ignorance of the >>actual location >>of towns and provinces in the ancient India Mughal. >>In addiction to it, the names of towns and provinces >>as we find >>them reported in Gentilesimo confutato are spelled in >>ancient Italian >>according to the way they were pronounced and not as >>they were actually >>written at the time and maybe nowadays as well. >>I therefore find myself without any positive >>geographical reference. >>I enclose a list including all towns and provinces >>quoted in the >>book, in order to give You a more detailed idea of >>what I mean. >>Moreover I'd like to have as many pieces of >>information as You >>can find, concerning the historical, economical and >>political background >>about the towns and provinces I mentioned above,dating >>back to Aurangzeb's time. >>Looking forward to receiving Your found answer . >> >> >> >>Yours faithfully >>Youri Martini >> >> >> >> >>IL GENTILESIMO CONFUTATO BY DON CLEMENTE TOSI >> >> >> >>PROVINCES AND TOWNS OF MUGHAL EMPIRE (AURANGZEB'S >>TIME) >> >> >> >> >>1)KABUL >> -towns: Kabul, Chere Cullouv(=Sher Gulab?, Charikar?) >> Gorebonda(=?) >> >>2)KANDAAR >> -town: Kandaar, Calabiche(=Qala Bist?), >>Chusechunam(=?), Cazicham(or Grees)(=?) >> -river: Sabaa(=?) >> -mountain: Corazan(=Khorasan?) >> >>3)MULTAN >> -towns: Multan, Catzan(=?), Dukeen(=?), Durves(=?) >> >>4)HAJACAN(=?) >> (desert) >> >>5)BAKER(=Bhakkar?, Baqir?) >> -towns: Baker(=?), Seivan(=Sehwan?) >> >>6)SINDH >> -towns: Tatta, Diul(=?) >> >>7)SORET(=?) >> -towns: Soret(=?), Ninovi(=Nadevi?), Cacha(=Katch?), >>Giangar(=?) >> >>8)GUJARAT >> -towns: Cambay, Mangerol(=Mangrol), Patan, Diu, >>Amadabat, Goga(=Gogha?), >> Sarques(=Sarkhej?), Campanel(=Champaner?), Surat, >>Daman(Damao), >>Goa, Bazain(Bassein), Dabul(=Dabhol?) >> >>9)CHITOR >> -towns: Chitor, Ratimpore(=Rathambhor) >> >>10)IESELMEERE(=Jaisalmer) >> -towns: Ieselmeere, Marum(=?) >> >>11)IENGAPOR(=?) >> -town: Ienupa(or Iengapor)(=?) >> >>12)KASHMIR >> -town: Shrinagar >> >>13)PANG-AB(=Punjab) >> -town: Lahor >> >>14)IENUBA(=?) >> -town: Ienba(=?) >> >>15)ATTAK(=Attok) >> -towns: Attak, Assam-Abdal(=Hasan Abdal) >> >>16)DELY(=Delhi) >> -towns: Sirynama(=?), Tanasar(=Thanesar?), Dely >> -river: Setmego(=?) >> >>17)BANDO(=Bandogarh?) >> -towns: Bando(or Biana), Mearta(=Merta?), >>Hendovune(=Hindaun?) >> -mountain: Marva(=?) >> >>18)BERAR(=?) >> -towns: Sarampore(=Serampur?), Sirange(=Shrangam?) >> >>19)MALVA(=Malwa) >> -towns: Ugen(=Ujjain?), Calleada(=?) >> -river: Cepra(=Kshipra?) >> >>20)KANDISC(Khandesh) >> -towns: Mandoa(=Mandu?), Hassare(=?), >> Tualnere(=Thalner),Brodera(or Radiapore)(=Baroda?, >>Broda?) >> >>21)GVALIOR(=Gwalior) >> -town: Gvalior >> >>22)NARVAAR(=Narwar?) >> -town: Gelmol(=?) >> >>23)PURROPIA(=Purabia?) >> -towns: Agra, Duolpore(=Dholpur), >>Fettipore(=Fatehpur), Secandra(Sikandra?), >>Itay(Etawah?), Ilavas(or Halebasse)(=Allahabad?) >> >>24)BAKAR(=?) >> -towns: Cannove(=Kinaur?), Bikanaer, >>Lacannove(=Lucknow?), Ouden(Audh?), >>Iounpore(=Jaunpur?) >> >>25)SENEBAL(or DO-AB)(=?) >> -towns: Sambal(=Chambal?), Sansaram(=Sassaram?), >>Anavas(=?) >> >>26)PATNA >> -town: Potan >> >>27)NAGRACUT(=Nagarcot?) >> -town: Nakarkar(=Nagatcot?) >> >>28)BANSISK(=?) >> -town: Behisur(=?) >> >>29)SIBA(=(Shiva?) >> -town: Harduavir(=Hardwar?) >> >>30)KAKARES(=?) >> -towns: Kakares(=?), Pulhora(=?), Dankaler(=?) >> -mountain: Dalanguer(=?) >> >>31)GOR(=?) >> -town: Gor >> -river: Perselly(=?) >> >>32)PEYTAN(=Paithan?) >> -town: Peytan >> -river: Kanda(=?) >> >>33)KANDVANA(=Godwana?) >> -town: Karabatek(=?) >> >>34)ISUAL(=?) >> -town: Raipore(=Raipur?) >> >>35)MEUSAT(=?) >> -town: Narnel(=Narnaul?) >> >>36)UDEZA(=Vidisha?) >> -town: Iekanar(=?) >> >>37)BENGALA(including twelve provinces) >> -towns: Banaros(=Varanasi?), Patana(Patna?), >>Moguer(=Monghyr?), >>Rajamol(=Rajamahal?), Govro(=Gaur?), >>Baligata(=Ballighat?), Katabro(=?), >>Bulva(=?), Chatigan(=Chatgaon?), Siripur(=Sirpur?), >>Noricul(=?), >>Tamboli(=?), Daka(=Dhaka), Solimanas(=?), Bacala(=?), >>Mussammabazar(=Kasimbazar?), >>Satagan(=Satgaon?), Ugulim(=Hooghly?), Pequeno(=?), >>Angelim(=?), >>Balassor, Pipli, Cateka(=Cuttack?), Aripur(=?), >>Piplipatan(=?), >>Narsingapatan(=?), Mussulapatan(=Masulipatan), >>Arcipur(=?), Midinimpur(=Midnapur?), >>Ramaxandrapur(=Rajamahendri?), Ialassor(=Jalesar?), >>Narangor(=?), Burdua(=Burdwan?), Banja(=?) >> -river: Ader(=?) >> -islands: Kandekan(=?), Sagor >> >>38)DECAN >> -towns: Obatebal(=?), Deder(=?) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>===== >> >>______________________________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it >> >> >> >Kontorsjef Edle Stang >Institutt for ?steuropeiske og orientalske studier >Postboks 1030, 0315 Blindern >Telefon: 22 85 69 79 >Fax: 22 85 41 40 > *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From bijlert at LETMAIL.LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sat Nov 20 17:19:49 1999 From: bijlert at LETMAIL.LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Vittorio A. van Bijlert) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 09:19:49 -0800 Subject: Mughal India Message-ID: <161227053891.23782.8160822958707785637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Schmidt, I sent a detailed reply to Ms. Martini a few days back with references and suggestions. Regards, Bhaswati Bhatacharya, Bijlert @rullet.Leidenuniv.nl ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruth Laila Schmidt To: Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 2:30 AM Subject: Mughal India Dear members of the list, This request came to me today. Unfortunately I don't have all the answers. Perhaps some of you can help. His email address is given below. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt>> >> >Envelope-to: edle.stang at east.uio.no >Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:00:48 +0100 (CET) >From: youri martini >Subject: Mughal India >To: edle.stang at east.uio.no >>YOURI MARTINI >>VIA ROMA 51 >>18010 SANTO STEFANO AL MARE >>IMPERIA >>ITALIA >> >> >> My name is Youri Martini. I am a student >>of the last >>course of modern history at the University of Genova >>(Italy). >>At the moment I'm getting together all kind of >>materials and authentic >>documents concerning the catholic churches and their >>movement of >>evangelization in India (XVI and XVII century) in >>order to write my degree thesis. >>My work is based on the analysis of Gentilesimo >>cofutato, a book >>written by a benedectin monk, don Clemente Tosi, in >>1669. I think >>this text was used as a handbook by catholic >>missionaries going to India. >>The main problem is my own deep ignorance of the >>actual location >>of towns and provinces in the ancient India Mughal. >>In addiction to it, the names of towns and provinces >>as we find >>them reported in Gentilesimo confutato are spelled in >>ancient Italian >>according to the way they were pronounced and not as >>they were actually >>written at the time and maybe nowadays as well. >>I therefore find myself without any positive >>geographical reference. >>I enclose a list including all towns and provinces >>quoted in the >>book, in order to give You a more detailed idea of >>what I mean. >>Moreover I'd like to have as many pieces of >>information as You >>can find, concerning the historical, economical and >>political background >>about the towns and provinces I mentioned above,dating >>back to Aurangzeb's time. >>Looking forward to receiving Your found answer . >> >> >> >>Yours faithfully >>Youri Martini >> >> >> >> >>IL GENTILESIMO CONFUTATO BY DON CLEMENTE TOSI >> >> >> >>PROVINCES AND TOWNS OF MUGHAL EMPIRE (AURANGZEB'S >>TIME) >> >> >> >> >>1)KABUL >> -towns: Kabul, Chere Cullouv(=Sher Gulab?, Charikar?) >> Gorebonda(=?) >> >>2)KANDAAR >> -town: Kandaar, Calabiche(=Qala Bist?), >>Chusechunam(=?), Cazicham(or Grees)(=?) >> -river: Sabaa(=?) >> -mountain: Corazan(=Khorasan?) >> >>3)MULTAN >> -towns: Multan, Catzan(=?), Dukeen(=?), Durves(=?) >> >>4)HAJACAN(=?) >> (desert) >> >>5)BAKER(=Bhakkar?, Baqir?) >> -towns: Baker(=?), Seivan(=Sehwan?) >> >>6)SINDH >> -towns: Tatta, Diul(=?) >> >>7)SORET(=?) >> -towns: Soret(=?), Ninovi(=Nadevi?), Cacha(=Katch?), >>Giangar(=?) >> >>8)GUJARAT >> -towns: Cambay, Mangerol(=Mangrol), Patan, Diu, >>Amadabat, Goga(=Gogha?), >> Sarques(=Sarkhej?), Campanel(=Champaner?), Surat, >>Daman(Damao), >>Goa, Bazain(Bassein), Dabul(=Dabhol?) >> >>9)CHITOR >> -towns: Chitor, Ratimpore(=Rathambhor) >> >>10)IESELMEERE(=Jaisalmer) >> -towns: Ieselmeere, Marum(=?) >> >>11)IENGAPOR(=?) >> -town: Ienupa(or Iengapor)(=?) >> >>12)KASHMIR >> -town: Shrinagar >> >>13)PANG-AB(=Punjab) >> -town: Lahor >> >>14)IENUBA(=?) >> -town: Ienba(=?) >> >>15)ATTAK(=Attok) >> -towns: Attak, Assam-Abdal(=Hasan Abdal) >> >>16)DELY(=Delhi) >> -towns: Sirynama(=?), Tanasar(=Thanesar?), Dely >> -river: Setmego(=?) >> >>17)BANDO(=Bandogarh?) >> -towns: Bando(or Biana), Mearta(=Merta?), >>Hendovune(=Hindaun?) >> -mountain: Marva(=?) >> >>18)BERAR(=?) >> -towns: Sarampore(=Serampur?), Sirange(=Shrangam?) >> >>19)MALVA(=Malwa) >> -towns: Ugen(=Ujjain?), Calleada(=?) >> -river: Cepra(=Kshipra?) >> >>20)KANDISC(Khandesh) >> -towns: Mandoa(=Mandu?), Hassare(=?), >> Tualnere(=Thalner),Brodera(or Radiapore)(=Baroda?, >>Broda?) >> >>21)GVALIOR(=Gwalior) >> -town: Gvalior >> >>22)NARVAAR(=Narwar?) >> -town: Gelmol(=?) >> >>23)PURROPIA(=Purabia?) >> -towns: Agra, Duolpore(=Dholpur), >>Fettipore(=Fatehpur), Secandra(Sikandra?), >>Itay(Etawah?), Ilavas(or Halebasse)(=Allahabad?) >> >>24)BAKAR(=?) >> -towns: Cannove(=Kinaur?), Bikanaer, >>Lacannove(=Lucknow?), Ouden(Audh?), >>Iounpore(=Jaunpur?) >> >>25)SENEBAL(or DO-AB)(=?) >> -towns: Sambal(=Chambal?), Sansaram(=Sassaram?), >>Anavas(=?) >> >>26)PATNA >> -town: Potan >> >>27)NAGRACUT(=Nagarcot?) >> -town: Nakarkar(=Nagatcot?) >> >>28)BANSISK(=?) >> -town: Behisur(=?) >> >>29)SIBA(=(Shiva?) >> -town: Harduavir(=Hardwar?) >> >>30)KAKARES(=?) >> -towns: Kakares(=?), Pulhora(=?), Dankaler(=?) >> -mountain: Dalanguer(=?) >> >>31)GOR(=?) >> -town: Gor >> -river: Perselly(=?) >> >>32)PEYTAN(=Paithan?) >> -town: Peytan >> -river: Kanda(=?) >> >>33)KANDVANA(=Godwana?) >> -town: Karabatek(=?) >> >>34)ISUAL(=?) >> -town: Raipore(=Raipur?) >> >>35)MEUSAT(=?) >> -town: Narnel(=Narnaul?) >> >>36)UDEZA(=Vidisha?) >> -town: Iekanar(=?) >> >>37)BENGALA(including twelve provinces) >> -towns: Banaros(=Varanasi?), Patana(Patna?), >>Moguer(=Monghyr?), >>Rajamol(=Rajamahal?), Govro(=Gaur?), >>Baligata(=Ballighat?), Katabro(=?), >>Bulva(=?), Chatigan(=Chatgaon?), Siripur(=Sirpur?), >>Noricul(=?), >>Tamboli(=?), Daka(=Dhaka), Solimanas(=?), Bacala(=?), >>Mussammabazar(=Kasimbazar?), >>Satagan(=Satgaon?), Ugulim(=Hooghly?), Pequeno(=?), >>Angelim(=?), >>Balassor, Pipli, Cateka(=Cuttack?), Aripur(=?), >>Piplipatan(=?), >>Narsingapatan(=?), Mussulapatan(=Masulipatan), >>Arcipur(=?), Midinimpur(=Midnapur?), >>Ramaxandrapur(=Rajamahendri?), Ialassor(=Jalesar?), >>Narangor(=?), Burdua(=Burdwan?), Banja(=?) >> -river: Ader(=?) >> -islands: Kandekan(=?), Sagor >> >>38)DECAN >> -towns: Obatebal(=?), Deder(=?) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>===== >> >>______________________________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it >> >> >> >Kontorsjef Edle Stang >Institutt for ?steuropeiske og orientalske studier >Postboks 1030, 0315 Blindern >Telefon: 22 85 69 79 >Fax: 22 85 41 40 > *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Sat Nov 20 14:46:18 1999 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 09:46:18 -0500 Subject: Parasol in India In-Reply-To: <19991120142800.21526.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053900.23782.2048638051387712858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the information about invention of the parasol. It seems to me that the paper-based parasol must be a Chinese invention; was it based on some general type of cloth-based device? What is the distinction between a parasol and an umbrella (in the note below)? On Sat, 20 Nov 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > > Geeta Bharathan asked: > >Was there a single type of parasol that was invented and spread from > >a single location, or were there different kinds? Were Indian > >parasols made the same way as, say, Japanese parasols? > > The standard opinion is that the parasol was invented in > China in 4th century AD (see Note 1). Given the fact that parasols are > an integral part of India from the Northwest to Southern > sangam texts from 2nd century BC at the very minimum and > linguistic analysis by Palaniappan pointing very much back in > time and that by 4th century Buddhism has established > itself well in Wei dynasty China, it is likely that Indian parasol > reached China. > > Note 1: Great Inventions Through History, G. Messadi'e, > Chambers Compact Reference, 1991 > (Les grandes inventions de l'humanitie) > p. 71 " Parasol, Anon., China, 4th century > ------------------------------------ > The first parasols appeared in the 4th century in China under > the Wei dynasty. They were made of oiled paper stuck on to > flexible ribs and were used for protection from the rain as > much as from the sun. They were therefore designed on the > model of the umbrellas which had preceded them by about > four centuries." > From ramakris at EROLS.COM Sat Nov 20 15:33:55 1999 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 10:33:55 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed Message-ID: <161227053904.23782.3756475664322800909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Krishna Kalale wrote: > Where is can I buy this book from Dr. Madhava Deshpande? You can get this and also Gonda's book from Amazon. I also suggest George Hart's "A Rapid Sanskrit Method," published by Motilal. It's not as detailed as Coulson's book, but I think Hart's book is easier for beginners. Rama From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 20 19:08:13 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 11:08:13 -0800 Subject: Help with a samskr*t sloka Message-ID: <161227053907.23782.1054895331517147179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear zubhASita specialists, can anybody gimme the samsr*t original of the zloka that goes as: "[despite] his father-in-law being the kind og the himalayas and the god of wealth( kubera) being his servant, the lord of the world lives in a crematorium on alms collected in his bowl". ( This is in praise of ziva).. If of any help( and if my memory serves me correctly), this zloka connects to another zloka which goes as: svayameva paJcavaktra: putrau gajAnana-shaDAnanau digambara: kathaM jivet annapUrNA na chedgr*he.. Regards, kr*SNa ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Sat Nov 20 19:56:52 1999 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 11:56:52 -0800 Subject: Subhashita source sought Message-ID: <161227053909.23782.4150745409646530895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone recognize the following verse, which appears to be a quote (Gopala-campu 1.21.140): dehendriya-mano-buddhi-prANAdInAM priyaM priye | tvad-anAdara-bhAjo me jAtaM sarvam anAdRtam || I could not find it in my meagre resources. Thank you very much for your help. Jan Brzezinski __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Nov 20 20:04:56 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 12:04:56 -0800 Subject: Traditional Panchangam calculations Message-ID: <161227053850.23782.6844532192896143023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the Kathmandu Post website a day ago or so, it had the tithi Krisna Ekadasi for November 18. Was this a mistake, or do the Nepalese use "krisna" to refer to the bright fortnight? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Nov 20 11:10:02 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 12:10:02 +0100 Subject: SV: Sanskrit text books info needed Message-ID: <161227053893.23782.1160658240524247248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Krishna Kalale [SMTP:kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM] skrev 20. november 1999 00:53: > Can anyone help me with a list of text books which I can use to teach > sanskrit. I am trying to teach 2 levels - beginners, and intermediate. I > studied using Indian books long time back. I am trying to teach here in US > so that children and adults can learn the language. I guess an english- > version would be good for students to follow. I dont know where to look. For beginners, you may want to try Walter Harding Maurer. The Sanskrit Language. An Introductory Grammar and Reader. Curzon Press. 1995. In the Teach Yourself series, there is Coulson's Teach Yourself Sanskrit. Both these books are very commendable. There are others as well, but I have no personal experience with them. Jan Gonda has written a short Skt. grammar with some texts which is useful for reference, although not good for self-study. Maurer has also been working on a book with Sanskrit texts for intermediate students, I believe. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Nov 20 11:16:27 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 12:16:27 +0100 Subject: SV: Sanskrit text books info needed Message-ID: <161227053896.23782.17123934050064529856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Krishna Kalale [SMTP:kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM] skrev 20. november 1999 00:53: > Can anyone help me with a list of text books which I can use to teach > sanskrit. I am trying to teach 2 levels - beginners, and intermediate. I > studied using Indian books long time back. I am trying to teach here in US > so that children and adults can learn the language. I guess an english- > version would be good for students to follow. I dont know where to look. Here are the biblographic data for Gonda's book: Jan Gonda. A concise elementary grammar of the Sanskrit language. With exercises, reading selections, and a glossary. Leiden, E. J. Brill 1966. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR Sat Nov 20 14:54:07 1999 From: jspitanga at OPENLINK.COM.BR (J.S.Pitanga) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 12:54:07 -0200 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works Message-ID: <161227053902.23782.10939158278387277153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>>>>[George Cronk:] >>>>>top five books and the top five articles in philosophy in the 20th >>>>>century: >>>>[Burt Thorp:] >>>>Panini's Grammar. >>>[Stephen Hodge:] >>>You mean the twentieth century reincarnation ? >>[Burt Thorp:] >>Implicit in Panini (and sometimes explicit in his school) is a >>philosophy and a logic that predates Wittgenstein and modern >>linguistic philosophy, or so one could argue. >[Birgit Kellner:] >I believe Stephen Hodge's question targeted Panini's date, and not >the value of his contribution to philosophy - Panini is not a 20th >century philosopher, and the list that prompted this exchange >referred specifically to philosophical works of the 20th century. Perhaps Burt Thorp's irony is just top work of the 20th century's Western dominated philosophy having being composed many centuries ago, and in the East. From hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sun Nov 21 04:22:06 1999 From: hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 99 20:22:06 -0800 Subject: Help with a samskr*t sloka on Shiva Message-ID: <161227053914.23782.14256790683062740989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ===== This is in response to the enquiry given below about two shlokas on Shiva: The first one: "svayam panchamukah putrau gajAnana-ShadAnanau | digambarah kaTham jIvEt annapUrNau na chEt grihE?" is perhaps from ChaNakya Shataka. The other one is most probably from "bhoja-prabhanda": "svayam mahEshah, shvashurO nagEshah, sakhA dhanEshas, tanayO gaNEshah | tathA api bhikShAtanam Eva shambhOh balIyasI kEvalam IshvarEchChA ||" -meaning , what prevails ultimately is God's will! Sincerely, -Harihareswara Stockton, California. =================== S Krishna wrote on Sat, 20 Nov 1999 11:08:13 PST on the Subject: Help with a samskr*t sloka Dear zubhASita specialists, can anybody gimme the samsr*t original of the zloka that goes as: "[despite] his father-in-law being the kind og the himalayas and the god of wealth( kubera) being his servant, the lord of the world lives in a crematorium on alms collected in his bowl". ( This is in praise of ziva).. If of any help( and if my memory serves me correctly), this zloka connects to another zloka which goes as: svayameva paJcavaktra: putrau gajAnana-shaDAnanau digambara: kathaM jivet annapUrNA na chedgr*he.. Regards, kr*SNa ============================= From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sun Nov 21 00:00:06 1999 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 99 00:00:06 +0000 Subject: Avalokita's vase Message-ID: <161227053911.23782.3291944247294680076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Have an art history question: > What is the explanation from texts like sAdhanamAlA > on the vase held in Avalokita's hand? > > Thanks for your guidance, > N. Ganesan It is commonly understood to be a jar containing the nectar of immortality. Avalokitesvara is linked in Buddhism to the Buddha Amitaayus -- Infinite Life. Best wishes, Stephen From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 21 12:52:59 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 99 04:52:59 -0800 Subject: vaizambAlyA Message-ID: <161227053922.23782.2235182862343533526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does vaizambAlyaa have something to do with vaizantaa = saras = pool? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 21 12:57:49 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 99 04:57:49 -0800 Subject: krumu river Message-ID: <161227053924.23782.9466059033144185934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel's '99 EJVS river mentions a river in Panjab called Krumu. Could it be kramuka ('arecanut')? Fertile lands are routinely described in the epic literature to be full of kramuka trees. Kuiper has noted: ta. pavaLam > pravAla, tamiz > dramiDa, ta. kamuku > kramuka Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Nov 21 09:01:43 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 99 09:01:43 +0000 Subject: vaizambAlyA Message-ID: <161227053913.23782.3630264569833122675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Witzel (ejvs, 1999) on Substrate languages of RV is a remarkable contribution to the unravelling of relative vedic chronology. The key issue which has yet to be resolves is: how far west or north can Para-Munda be traced in terms of location and in time, say, from the earliest settlements in Mundigak. The patterns of migration away from the Sarasvati_ and Dr.s.advati_ rivers, ca. 1500 BC towards the Chambal river indicates the possibility that the name vais'ambha_lya of Sarasvati_ river may indeed refer to the shortened popular form--Chambal River. Chambal could be reckoned as Para-Munda (to use Prof. Witzel's term). CDIAl has 12961(root: bhr.): sambharati = brings together, prepares, rolls up (RV);sambha_lna_ = to support (P.); sam.bha_ria = maintained (Pkt.); sama_(ha_)lai = takes care of (OMarw.) Witzel notes that Vai'sambhalyA (with many variants, always a sign of foreign origin, in the Brahmana texts: TB 2.5.8.6, -bhAlyA, -pAlyA, -bAlyA Ap'SS 4.14.4, -bhAlyA BhAr'sikSA; cf. also RV vi'spAla?),is to be derived from something like *visambAz/*visambAL, ..." (Witzel, M., 1999, Substrate languages in OIA, EJVS, 1999, p. 11) An alternative eymology is seen from Sa_yan.a and more descriptive terms are evolved: Sa_yan.a explains the verse: vis'va_m praja_na_m bharan.am pos.an.am vis'ambhalam tatkartum ks.ama_ vis'ambhalya_ ta_dr.s'i_. Sarasvati_ is thus vais'ambhalya_ or one who brings up the whole people. This epithet is an apparent expansion of Sarasvati_ as a river nourishing the settlements of people with her waters and promoting agriculture and other livelihood activities of the people, she was indeed the giver of food,Va_jinni_vati_. Sarasvati_ is called satyava_k: pra te mahe sarasvati_ subhage va_jinni_vati_ satyava_ce bhare matim idam te havyam ghr.tavat sarasvati satyava_ce prabharema_ havi_m.si: (TB 2.5.4.6; S'ri_ Ma_dhava explains the dative form, sartyava_ce: anr.tava_kyarahita_yai; thus,Sarasvati_ as Va_k is all truth, free from falsehood; in RV 1.3.11,she is codayitri_ su_nr.ta_na_m, the impeller of pleasing and true speeches). The waters are medicinal for the world (vis'vabhes.aji_h: TB 2.5.8.6). Sarasvati_ is sumr.d.i_ka_ (Taittiri_ya A_ran.yaka 1.1.3, 21.3, 31.6, 4.42.1); this is explained as having good soil (sumr.d), that is, land having good (fertile) soil. Sarasvati_ is described as both the land and the water: sarasvati saroyuktabhu_miru_pa is.t.ake (TA 1.1.3). During her flight back from heaven, Ga_yatri_ encountered the Gandharva Vis'va_vasu who robbed her of the soma. Gods became anxious as Ga_yatri's return from heaven with soma was being delayed and realized that the Gandharvas had stolen soma. (S'B 3.2.4.2). Then, they planned to send Va_k to the Gandharvas, who were fond of women, to retrieve soma for the gods. (S'B 3.2.4.3). In the encounter of Va_k with the Gandharvas, the latter demanded that the gods should offer Va_k in exchange for soma. The gods agreed to the demand with the condition that if Va_k wanted to return the Gandharvas should not force her to remain with them against her will (S'B 3.2.4.4). Both the gods and gandharvas began to woo Va_k; gandharvas recited the Veda (S'B 3.2.4.5); gods played on a lute to entice Va_k. Gods won and the gandharvas lost both the soma and Va_k. (S'B 3.2.4.6-7). M antraru_pa_ va_k, deified speech becomes, in the Bra_hman.as, the goddess of speech. She is associated with Vis.n.u and described as his tongue or residing in his mouth. (Skanda. P. 7.33.96). In Va_yu Pura_n.a (1.23.34), Sarasvati_ is described as one with a loud roar, maha_na_da_. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 21 09:42:19 1999 From: se224141 at HOTMAIL.COM (Kailash Srivastava) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 99 10:42:19 +0100 Subject: "Indian Journal of History of Sciences" Message-ID: <161227053917.23782.3078298702760814165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Who is the publisher? I needed email/fax/address. Kailash Srivastava -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Nov 21 19:21:20 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 99 11:21:20 -0800 Subject: Help with a samskr*t sloka on Shiva Message-ID: <161227053932.23782.2898928768792787985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> namo nama:, subhAzita rUpe mama praznasyottaram "shikharipura harihareshwara" "K.S.Arjunwadkar" paNditAbhyAm ca dattam.h. sahAyyAya dhanyavAda- -pratakaTanakaraNArthaM idam patram likhAmi. Kr*SNa >The other one is most probably from "bhoja-prabhanda": > "svayam mahEshah, shvashurO nagEshah, > sakhA dhanEshas, tanayO gaNEshah | > tathA api bhikShAtanam Eva shambhOh > balIyasI kEvalam IshvarEchChA ||" > >-meaning , what prevails ultimately is God's will! > >Sincerely, >-Ha ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Sun Nov 21 11:40:34 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 99 11:40:34 +0000 Subject: Help with a samskr*t sloka In-Reply-To: <19991120190813.37306.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053920.23782.149074896740768274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 11:08:13 PST Send reply to: Indology From: S Krishna Subject: Help with a samskr*t sloka To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Dear zubhASita specialists, > > can anybody gimme the samsr*t original of the zloka that goes as: > > "[despite] his father-in-law being the kind og the himalayas and the > god of wealth( kubera) being his servant, the lord of the world lives in a > crematorium on alms collected in his bowl". > > ( This is in praise of ziva).. > > If of any help( and if my memory serves me correctly), this zloka connects > to another zloka which goes as: > > svayameva paJcavaktra: putrau gajAnana-shaDAnanau > digambara: kathaM jivet annapUrNA na chedgr*he.. > > Regards, > kr*SNa > > Reply svayam mahesha: shvashuro nagesha: pitaa ganeshasya sakhaa dhanesha: / tathaapi bhikshaatanam eva shambho: baliiyasii kevalam iishvarecchaa // > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Nov 21 16:29:45 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 99 17:29:45 +0100 Subject: SV: books on Indo-Aryans Message-ID: <161227053928.23782.4193201289989571006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin Bryant [SMTP:ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU] skrev 23. oktober 1999 23:33: > > --- and Patton, Laurie. The Indo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and Inference > in Indian History. Richmond: Curzon Press, forthcoming. Hello Edwin, just a question: How far has the process come? Laurie Patton told me that we would get some kind of contract in connection with this book, but so far, I have not received anything. BTW, the Norwegian book to which I am contributing on the same subject is being published these days. So scriptorial work does bear fruit, eventually! Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From kaykay at GIASBMA.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Nov 21 14:08:25 1999 From: kaykay at GIASBMA.VSNL.NET.IN (K.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 99 19:08:25 +0500 Subject: krumu river In-Reply-To: <19991121125750.54888.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053926.23782.8989964725386009057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is not Punjab region beyond limits a moist tropical palm like Areca catechu ? Krish. On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Prof. Witzel's '99 EJVS river mentions a river in Panjab called > Krumu. > > Could it be kramuka ('arecanut')? Fertile lands are routinely > described in the epic literature to be full of kramuka trees. > > Kuiper has noted: > ta. pavaLam > pravAla, tamiz > dramiDa, ta. kamuku > kramuka > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Nov 21 18:41:14 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 99 19:41:14 +0100 Subject: SV: books on Indo-Aryans Message-ID: <161227053930.23782.14164835956513894829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse [SMTP:lmfosse at ONLINE.NO] skrev 21. november 1999 17:30: > Edwin Bryant [SMTP:ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU] skrev 23. oktober 1999 23:33: > > > > --- and Patton, Laurie. The Indo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and Inference > > in Indian History. Richmond: Curzon Press, forthcoming. > > Hello Edwin, etc. Ooooooooooooooops! This should not have gone to the list. I am very sorry! Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Nov 22 10:50:39 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 00:50:39 -1000 Subject: Avalokita's vase In-Reply-To: <002e01bf33b3$5f4ce260$35f0883e@default> Message-ID: <161227053938.23782.4790258325129642725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Stephen Hodge wrote: >N. Ganesan wrote: > > > Have an art history question: > > What is the explanation from texts like sAdhanamAlA > > on the vase held in Avalokita's hand? > It is commonly understood to be a jar containing the nectar of > immortality. Avalokitesvara is linked in Buddhism to the Buddha > Amitaayus -- Infinite Life. Further clarification... that jar of nectar is used to help those in need, i.e., not for Avalokitesvara to take an occasional sip on a sultry day... There are a few incidents in "Journey to the West" (Hsi Yu Chi) where Kuan yin is depicted as using the nectar to revive something that has been destroyed or damaged. Similarly, in John Blofeld's book "Bodhisattva of Compassion", the Appendix ("The Principal Iconographic Forms of the Bodhisattva") states: "Her principal emblems are a precious vase held in one hand and a willow spray held in another, symbolising respectively 'sweet dew' (also known as amrta) meaning the nectar of wisdom and compassion, and secondly her willingness to sprinkle it upon the heads of all who invoke her aid." Regards, Raja. From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU Mon Nov 22 08:13:56 1999 From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt Thorp) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 02:13:56 -0600 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works In-Reply-To: <383603EB.89969D71@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227053934.23782.12848957442934500764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yeah, obviously I missed that somehow. But I guess I was thinking that it makes no sense to try to compare Indian philosophy in the 20th century with western philosophy. One should instead compare the most creative periods of Indian philosophy with the creative periods in the west. For the west, those periods would be the Greeks, then a long gap until Descartes and up to the early 20th century (the books on the list). The second half of the present century has been mostly dead and derivitive as far as philosophy goes. But for India, the creative period would be in the past, Nagarjuna and others. Or, who? Aurobindo, though certainly worth reading, never struck me as a philosopher at all. Rather, he is a tantric mystic, who, because of his western education, was able to create a veneer of western rationality in his books. Radhakrishnan was a good writer, but I never could tell what advances he made on traditional Vedanta. I do enjoy his Upanishad volume. Lists of the best whatevers in the 20th century have proliferated--they're fun but silly. At 03:14 AM 11/20/1999 +0100, you wrote: >Burt Thorp wrote: > >> Implicit in Panini (and sometimes explicit in his school) is a philosophy >> and a logic that predates Wittgenstein and modern linguistic philosophy, or >> so one could argue. My former teacher, Hartmut Scharfe, used to teach >> Panini as part of his undergraduate course on Indian Philosophy at UCLA. >> >> At 07:47 PM 11/19/1999 -0000, you wrote: >> >> Panini's Grammar. >> > >> >You mean the twentieth century reincarnation ? >> > >> >Best wishes, >> >Stephen Hodge > >I believe Stephen Hodge's question targeted Panini's date, and not the value of >his contribution to philosophy - Panini is not a 20th century philosopher, and >the list that prompted this exchange referred specifically to philosophical >works of the 20th century. > >Best, > >-- >Birgit Kellner >Institut fuer Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Universitaet Wien >Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies / Vienna University > > From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Nov 22 13:30:22 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 03:30:22 -1000 Subject: Avalokita's vase In-Reply-To: <19991122132010.19020.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227053942.23782.8354906459766843423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Avalokita's abode is Mt. Potalaka which was identified ^^^^^^^^^^ > as Mt. Potiyil(Malaya) by Hsuan Tsang and another Chinese ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > encyclopaedia writer. That's your theory, not an established fact. No offence intended, Raja. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 22 13:20:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 05:20:07 -0800 Subject: Avalokita's vase Message-ID: <161227053940.23782.7716149584122996889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >There are a few incidents in "Journey to >the West" (Hsi Yu Chi) where Kuan yin is >depicted as using the nectar to revive >something that has been destroyed or damaged. Thanks, i have the Shambala pub. translation of The Journey to the West. >Similarly, in John Blofeld's book "Bodhisattva >of Compassion", the Appendix ("The Principal >Iconographic Forms of the Bodhisattva") states: >"Her principal emblems are a precious vase held >in one hand and a willow spray held in another, >symbolising respectively 'sweet dew' (also known >as amrta) meaning the nectar of wisdom and >compassion, and secondly her willingness to >sprinkle it upon the heads of all who invoke >her aid." Have Blofeld too. An art historian, D. Sanford once told that may be because the willow is the first tree to sprout leaves in the spring season, a sign of life. Girls being willow-like etc., is in Chinese art for a long time. I guess the karaka/kamaNDalu (and akshamAlA) of the more ascetic natured (Indian) Avalokitezvara gets a little change there. Hope someone in the list will enlighten me on the vase in Indian Avalokita conception. Probably in Saadhanamaalaa or Bhattacharya, Elements of Buddhist iconography. (?). Avalokita's abode is Mt. Potalaka which was identified as Mt. Potiyil(Malaya) by Hsuan Tsang and another Chinese encyclopaedia writer. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 22 14:34:57 1999 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 06:34:57 -0800 Subject: Subhashita search Message-ID: <161227053946.23782.1916196509713445376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, Since no one seems to have recognized my verse, would one of you who has access to the _SubhASita-ratna-bhANDAgAara_ kindly confirm for me that it is NOT to be found there? This book is unfortunately not available in any library within 500 km of my home. dehendriyamanobuddhi- prANAdInAM priyaM priye tvadanAdarabhAjo me jAtaM sarvam anAdRtam I very much appreciate the trouble, dear anyahitamAtrAkAGkSiNaH. Yours, Jan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 22 14:44:58 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 06:44:58 -0800 Subject: Avalokita's vase Message-ID: <161227053948.23782.4897828987677528470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Further clarification... that jar of nectar >is used to help those in need, i.e., not for >Avalokitesvara to take an occasional sip >on a sultry day... Of course, only SamkarSaNa (the deity of farming) takes a sip from his toddy cup. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 22 15:19:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 07:19:07 -0800 Subject: Avalokita's vase Message-ID: <161227053954.23782.4241599166629860708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NG> Avalokita's abode is Mt. Potalaka which was identified ^^^^^^^^^^ NG> as Mt. Potiyil(Malaya) by Hsuan Tsang and another Chinese ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ NG> encyclopaedia writer. Raja wrote: >That's your theory, not an established fact. >No offence intended, In the archives, enough is there on Mt. Potalaka. Though some scholars have different opinion (for example M. Deshpande, Who inspired Panini?, JAOS, 1997 has Potalaka in Northwest India), the majaority of scholars have identified it with Malaya. Just one example from 1913 A.D is given below. BUDDHIST CHINA by Reginald Fleming Johnston Published by JohnMurray, Albermarle Street, London W. 1913. Pages 270 ff. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Chinese Buddhists acknowledge that the original seat of Kuan-yin was at a great distance from China. According to one interpretation of Avalokitesvara, it means the Lord (Isvara) who looks down from a height. The "height" is the sacred mountain of Potalaka, a place which is always associated with the worship of this Bodhisat. Where the original Potalaka is a disputed question. It is usually assumed to have been a rocky hill to the east of Malaya mountain, southern India near the harbour of Cape Komorin. If this identification is correct, it seems highly probable that the deity worshipped there was of non-Buddhist origin and there is evidence to associate her (or him) with Siva. ______________________________________________________________________ Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Mon Nov 22 14:28:10 1999 From: rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Robert A. Hueckstedt) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 09:28:10 -0500 Subject: Text of _Kaadambariikalyaa.nam_ In-Reply-To: <19991120195652.20076.rocketmail@web1403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227053944.23782.13328332972905319727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> List members, I have been asked by Edwin Gerow to review a book for the JAOS. It is a translation of the _Kaadambariikalyaa.nam Naa.takam_ by Narasi.mhakavi, an Andhra playwright of the fourteenth century. The text used by the translator is: _The Kaadambariikalyaa.ma.m Naa.takam: A Drama by Narasi.mhakavi_. Ed. with Skt. intro. by V. Krishnamacharya. Madras: The Educational Publishing Co., 1936. Without looking at the original text I feel inadequate to judge the translation. I have tried Interlibrary loan to no avail. I have sent a message directly to Allen Thrasher at the Library of Congress. He was extremely helpful, but not even the venerable LOC has a copy of this text. Does anyone reading this message happen to have a copy? If so, please respond off list. I'll be happy to pay for any xeroxing and shipping fees. Gratefully, Bob Hueckstedt Professor of Sanskrit and Hindi B-27 Cabell Hall AMELC University of Virginia Charlottesville, Virginia 22903 USA office -- (804) 924-3488 From ThomasBurke at AOL.COM Mon Nov 22 15:21:10 1999 From: ThomasBurke at AOL.COM (Thomas C, Burke) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 10:21:10 -0500 Subject: Subhashita search Message-ID: <161227053952.23782.16775547373513585001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My edition of the SubhASita-ratna-bhANDAgAara, published in 1952, does not contain the shloka dehendriyamanobuddhi- prANAdInAM priyaM priye tvadanAdarabhAjo me jAtaM sarvam anAdRtam Sorry to disappoint you, Thomas Burke From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Mon Nov 22 10:20:50 1999 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 11:20:50 +0100 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991122021356.007a8cf0@plains.nodak.edu> Message-ID: <161227053936.23782.10673845643363555108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 22 Nov 99, at 2:13, Burt Thorp wrote: > [...] One should instead compare the most creative periods of > Indian philosophy with the creative periods in the west. For the > west, those periods would be the Greeks, then a long gap until > Descartes and up to the early 20th century (the books on the > list). I certainly do _not_ want to start a discussion on this topic at all, but simply want to know whether you have have forgotten authors like Anselm of Canterbury, Duns Scotus, Thomas Aquinas, William of Ockham, or Nicholas of Cusa (to name only some of the most original ones and not to mention some of the ingenious Italian Renaissance thinkers) etc. etc.? (Hopefully your definition of philosophy is not so narrow as to exclude these thinkers.) With kind regards, Roland Steiner From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Nov 22 16:43:03 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 11:43:03 -0500 Subject: "Indian Journal of History of Sciences" Message-ID: <161227053957.23782.16120147825594872371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The publisher of IJHS is: Indian National Science Academy [formerly National Institute of Sciences of India] Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg New Delhi 110002 tel. (11) 323-1038 fax (11) 323-5648 telex 31-61835 Email insa at giasdlol.vsnl.in Sincerely, Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 22 19:55:30 1999 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 11:55:30 -0800 Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search Message-ID: <161227053961.23782.5962624764001076675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello again! I just came across this formulaic verse, which nevertheless seems to have a number of unusual words that don't translate literally. Would anyone like to suggest translations (and/or interpretations) of the following verse: alir bANo jyotiSakaH stabdhIbhUtaH kimekAkI preSita-preSakaz caiva SaD ete sevakAdhamAH I am guessing as follows: (1) ali (bee, because he buzzes around just trying to extract honey for his own advantage; or scorpion, because he simply stings or brings suffering to his master) (2) bANa (arrow ?) (3) jyotiSaka (a procrastinator -- always waiting for the right alignment of planets before he acts) (4) stabdhIbhUta (bewildered, dull and inactive) (5) kimekAkI (someone who says, "I can't do this by myself") (6) preSitapreSaka (a buck-passer). Couldn't find a source, neither... My Pancatantra doesn't have an index... When is the Subhasita CD coming out? Jan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 22 20:13:32 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 12:13:32 -0800 Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search Message-ID: <161227053963.23782.10463397378478079549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I am guessing as follows: > > (1) ali (bee, because he buzzes around just trying to > extract honey for his own advantage; or scorpion, > because he simply stings or brings suffering to his > master) aLi is bee or beetle in tamil always, starting from sangam texts onwards. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Mon Nov 22 16:39:14 1999 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 16:39:14 +0000 Subject: Traditional Panchangam calculations Message-ID: <161227053956.23782.10675894313378970795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On *Sat, 20 Nov 1999 12:04:56 -0800*, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >On the Kathmandu Post website What is the URL? >it had the tithi Krisna Ekadasi for November 18. >Was this a mistake, or do the Nepalese use "krisna" >to refer to the bright fortnight? It is more than likely that it was a mistake. On the Nepalese calender, see p. xxviii - xxx in Nepalese Manuscripts. Part 1. Described by Siegfried Lienhard. Stuttgart 1988. (VOHD, Band xxxiii,1.). From hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Tue Nov 23 02:50:03 1999 From: hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 18:50:03 -0800 Subject: Subhashita search Message-ID: <161227053965.23782.15411161107368074157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ===== This is in response to the Query below: I have 1991 edition of Subhashita Ratna BhandAgAram edited by shri Narayana Ram Acharya kAvyathirtha, and the shloka given below does not appear in it. -Harihareswara Stockton, California. ===== Question======= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 06:34:57 -0800 From: Jan Brzezinski Subject: Re: Subhashita search Dear friends, Since no one seems to have recognized my verse, would one of you who has access to the _SubhASita-ratna-bhANDAgAara_ kindly confirm for me that it is NOT to be found there? This book is unfortunately not available in any library within 500 km of my home. dehendriyamanobuddhi- prANAdInAM priyaM priye tvadanAdarabhAjo me jAtaM sarvam anAdRtam I very much appreciate the trouble, dear anyahitamAtrAkAGkSiNaH. Yours, Jan _____________________======== From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU Tue Nov 23 03:11:55 1999 From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt Thorp) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 99 21:11:55 -0600 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works In-Reply-To: <199911221020.LAA19750@Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> Message-ID: <161227053950.23782.9190467203213401711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I knew I'd provoke a medievalist with my comments--the key word is "creative" in the sense of wholly new views that change how people view the world, or at least change the course of philosphy. At 11:20 AM 11/22/1999 +0100, you wrote: >On 22 Nov 99, at 2:13, Burt Thorp wrote: > >> [...] One should instead compare the most creative periods of >> Indian philosophy with the creative periods in the west. For the >> west, those periods would be the Greeks, then a long gap until >> Descartes and up to the early 20th century (the books on the >> list). > >I certainly do _not_ want to start a discussion on this topic at all, >but simply want to know whether you have have forgotten >authors like Anselm of Canterbury, Duns Scotus, Thomas >Aquinas, William of Ockham, or Nicholas of Cusa (to name only >some of the most original ones and not to mention some of the >ingenious Italian Renaissance thinkers) etc. etc.? (Hopefully >your definition of philosophy is not so narrow as to exclude these >thinkers.) > >With kind regards, >Roland Steiner > > From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Tue Nov 23 11:52:44 1999 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 03:52:44 -0800 Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search (the trouble with ali) Message-ID: <161227053974.23782.11734489081297850838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The trouble with ali as "bee" is, in what way does a bee characterize a type of sevakAdhama? A bee usually is seen positively because of its pleasant buzzing sound and its associations with flowers and honey, what to speak of the western image of a "busy bee." madhulobhAd yathA bhRGgaH puSpAt puSpAntaraM vrajet jJAnalobhAd tathA ziSyaH guror gurvantaraM vrajet It is also associated with inconstancy and fickleness in the erotic mood. madhupa kitavabandho mA spRzAGghriM sapatnyAH kucavilulitamAlAkuGkumasmazrubhir naH vahatu madhupatis tanmAninInAM prasAdaM yadusadasi viDambyaM yasya dUtas tvam IdRk (BhP 10.46.12) And with foolishness apparently, dvirepho barbaraH proktaH parapuSTaz ca ceTakaH | tau cAgraNyau madhor dRSTau yApyatA kApy ataH kim u? || GopAlacampU 1.22.47 "The bumblebee is known to be a fool or blockhead, and the cuckoo, one maintained by others, is a lowly slave. If these two are the harbingers of the sweet season, then what further knavishness can we expect from it?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Tue Nov 23 11:59:00 1999 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 03:59:00 -0800 Subject: Subhashita search Message-ID: <161227053976.23782.1466108906462024882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, but there are also critical editions of SaduktikarNAmRta, PadyAvalI, SubhASitaratnakoza, to name just a few, where sources have been tracked down. I am basically trying to establish if the verse is a quotation or not. The editor treats it as a quote but gives no source. Stylistically and linguistically, it is somewhat different from the author's other verse. Jan --- K S Arjunwadkar wrote: > Date sent: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 06:34:57 > -0800 > Send reply to: Indology > > From: Jan Brzezinski > > Subject: Re: Subhashita search > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > > Dear friends, > > > > Since no one seems to have recognized my verse, > would > > one of you who has access to the > > _SubhASita-ratna-bhANDAgAara_ kindly confirm for > me > > that it is NOT to be found there? This book is > > unfortunately not available in any library within > 500 > > km of my home. > > > > dehendriyamanobuddhi- > > prANAdInAM priyaM priye > > tvadanAdarabhAjo me > > jAtaM sarvam anAdRtam > > > > I very much appreciate the trouble, dear > > anyahitamAtrAkAGkSiNaH. > > Feedback > Judging from its contents (briefly, 'I have lost > interest in everything > since you ignored me, my beloved!'), this verse > appears to have > been picked up from some poetic work, and mere this > clue is not > enough to trace a verse to its source. Anthologies > of subhASitas > do not necessarily note the sources, if any, of the > selected verses. > Some old anthologies mention the names of the > poets/writers if > famous. > KSA > > > > Yours, > > > > Jan > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 23 12:13:44 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 04:13:44 -0800 Subject: Wheat Message-ID: <161227053977.23782.16557952090948570071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wheat is "xOlam" in brahui. Tamil has "cO.lam" (maize, great millet, sorghum vulgare). In addition, "kUlam" = grain, "kUlavaNikan" = grain merchant, "kU.lam" = broken pieces of straw, of hemp (in tamil). Also, "kUlam" is the "tax on grains and pulses". The famous author of Manimekalai epic is a "kUla vaNikan". "kUli" means pay/wages (originally paid in measures of grain). This "kUli" > coolie in english. Central Dravidian has "kUli, kU.di" (grain, paddy). In IVC, wheat was possibly called *kO.lam/kU.lam. Brahui xOlam and tamil cO.lam and central dravidian kuu.di can be easily derived from this *kO.lam. Note that kUlam refers to "the grain, the wages, the tax on grains" - all with economic significance. (1) Kannada "na.l.lu" is reed. In tamil na.l-/na.du- means "center". Tamil nAzi/nA.lam/nA.di = tube, vein. na.la/na.da > (skt) nada. Another example: cOza > cO.la/cO.da, etc., (2) Dr. yaa.davar > Skt. yaadhava. Similar to these 2 examples, Dr. *kO.lam > Punjab *gO.dum [Note 1] > Skt. gOdhUma. For the question of how -a- in *kOLam changes to u/U in godhuma, consider beLa in beLagaum transforming to veNu as veNugraama attested in mediaeval insciptions. The skt. popular etymology of godhuuma is "cow smoke". >?From the Dr. *kO.lam, Burushaski seems to have borrowed the word for wheat: Dr. *kO.lam/kU.lam > *guliG > Bur. guriG, gureG (pl.). Also, kannada gOdi < *gO.di < *kO.di < IVC *kO.lam because in dravidian, the noun endings -am and -i are interchangeable many times. Likewise central Dr. kUli, kU.di < *kO.lam also. If this working hypothesis stands, wheat might have been called something like *kO.lam/kU.lam in IVC which explains the derivation of Bur. gurig, Skt. godhUma, Kan. gOdi and the importance of kuu.lam/kuulam in tamil literature. Appreciations for your comments on this. Regards, N. Ganesan Note 1: Substrates in OIA, EJVS, 1999, p. 23 ------- "*gOdi 'low red plant' (Southworth 1988, 1979, 1990) which is quite different from the Panjab word *gO-dum > Vedic godhuuma 'cowsmoke' ". For Panjab, Dr. *kOLam > *gO.dum > *gOdum is likely. Note 2: ------- kUlavatii river is given in Monier-Williams. Which purana mentions this river? Is it a legendary or real one? What is the traditional explanation of the name, godAvari? Consider kUlam 'grains' and *kOLam > ta. cOLam and brahui xolam. Is *kOLaviri > *gODaavari > godAvari admissible?? (cf. kAvEri and ta. kAviri). NG ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Nov 23 14:38:00 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 06:38:00 -0800 Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search (the trouble with ali) Message-ID: <161227053982.23782.5404408461678205477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In tamil classical texts, it's fairly common to compare the infidelity of the male lover. Like bees hopping from flower to flower. May be this is transferred to sevaAdhama - referring to the shuudra's changing bosses (given a choice). --- Jan Brzezinski wrote: > The trouble with ali as "bee" is, in what way does a > bee characterize a type of sevakAdhama? > > A bee usually is seen positively because of its > pleasant buzzing sound and its associations with > flowers and honey, what to speak of the western image > of a "busy bee." > > madhulobhAd yathA bhRGgaH > puSpAt puSpAntaraM vrajet > jJAnalobhAd tathA ziSyaH > guror gurvantaraM vrajet > > It is also associated with inconstancy and fickleness > in the erotic mood. > > madhupa kitavabandho mA spRzAGghriM sapatnyAH > kucavilulitamAlAkuGkumasmazrubhir naH > vahatu madhupatis tanmAninInAM prasAdaM > yadusadasi viDambyaM yasya dUtas tvam IdRk (BhP > 10.46.12) > > And with foolishness apparently, > > dvirepho barbaraH proktaH > parapuSTaz ca ceTakaH | > tau cAgraNyau madhor dRSTau > yApyatA kApy ataH kim u? || GopAlacampU 1.22.47 > > "The bumblebee is known to be a fool or blockhead, > and the cuckoo, one maintained by others, is a lowly > slave. > If these two are the harbingers of the sweet season, > then what further knavishness can we expect from it?" > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Tue Nov 23 07:25:07 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 07:25:07 +0000 Subject: Subhashita search In-Reply-To: <19991122143457.7472.rocketmail@web1404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227053968.23782.9475465156011743557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 06:34:57 -0800 Send reply to: Indology From: Jan Brzezinski Subject: Re: Subhashita search To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Dear friends, > > Since no one seems to have recognized my verse, would > one of you who has access to the > _SubhASita-ratna-bhANDAgAara_ kindly confirm for me > that it is NOT to be found there? This book is > unfortunately not available in any library within 500 > km of my home. > > dehendriyamanobuddhi- > prANAdInAM priyaM priye > tvadanAdarabhAjo me > jAtaM sarvam anAdRtam > > I very much appreciate the trouble, dear > anyahitamAtrAkAGkSiNaH. Feedback Judging from its contents (briefly, 'I have lost interest in everything since you ignored me, my beloved!'), this verse appears to have been picked up from some poetic work, and mere this clue is not enough to trace a verse to its source. Anthologies of subhASitas do not necessarily note the sources, if any, of the selected verses. Some old anthologies mention the names of the poets/writers if famous. KSA > > Yours, > > Jan > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Tue Nov 23 08:11:53 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 08:11:53 +0000 Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search In-Reply-To: <19991122195530.9805.rocketmail@web1403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227053970.23782.497315223377544131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:55:30 -0800 Send reply to: Indology From: Jan Brzezinski Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > > alir bANo jyotiSakaH > stabdhIbhUtaH kimekAkI > preSita-preSakaz caiva > SaD ete sevakAdhamAH > > Feedback The second line/quarter is metrically defective. In the present scheme, it can be the first or the third line in an anSTubh verse. 'kimekakaH' could serve. Check the source. KSA > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From mahesh at STARNETINC.COM Tue Nov 23 14:11:57 1999 From: mahesh at STARNETINC.COM (Mahesh Shah) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 08:11:57 -0600 Subject: Usage of the word shraman Message-ID: <161227053984.23782.4795380238196347117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I would like to know the usage of the (sanskrit?) word "shraman" in all its contexts, especially Jainism. I would lalso like to know its etymology. Thanks mahesh From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Tue Nov 23 14:24:33 1999 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 09:24:33 -0500 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works Message-ID: <161227053981.23782.16960575763431180972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think I agree that Radhakrishnan was not much of a "creative" or groundbreaking philosopher. However, he did produce much valuable scholarship. Very few politicians produce works like INDIAN PHILOSOPHY, THE PRINCIPAL UPANISHADS, AN IDEALIST VIEW OF LIFE, etc., etc. In addition to his work as a politician, he also did much good as an historian of philosophy and as a commentator on and interpreter of philosophical traditions. George Cronk ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Zydenbos To: Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 12:57 AM Subject: Re: "Top Five" Philosophy Works > On Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:13:56 -0600, Burt Thorp wrote: > > > Radhakrishnan was a good writer, but I never could tell what advances he > > made on traditional Vedanta. > > If you glance at what Paul Hacker has had to say about > Radhakrishnan (see a few articles in his _Kleine Schriften_), you'll > see that in popular imagination R. is severely overrated. He was more > a politician than a philosopher. > > RZ From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Nov 23 19:03:29 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 11:03:29 -0800 Subject: Traditional Panchangam calculations Message-ID: <161227053959.23782.6184289589341995884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sven Ekelin wrote: > > On *Sat, 20 Nov 1999 12:04:56 -0800*, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > >On the Kathmandu Post website > > What is the URL? > > >it had the tithi Krisna Ekadasi for November 18. http://www.nepalnews.com/main.htm For today (Nov. 22, 1999) they had: Mangshir 06 , 2056 B.S | Kartik Krishna Chaturdashi Tithi -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Tue Nov 23 05:57:43 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 11:27:43 +0530 Subject: "Top Five" Philosophy Works In-Reply-To: <199911212011.BAA03788@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227053967.23782.10320584555453149722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:13:56 -0600, Burt Thorp wrote: > Radhakrishnan was a good writer, but I never could tell what advances he > made on traditional Vedanta. If you glance at what Paul Hacker has had to say about Radhakrishnan (see a few articles in his _Kleine Schriften_), you'll see that in popular imagination R. is severely overrated. He was more a politician than a philosopher. RZ From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Tue Nov 23 10:42:46 1999 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei Schmalz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 11:42:46 +0100 Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search In-Reply-To: <19991122195530.9805.rocketmail@web1403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227053972.23782.17488325897543696378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > (3) jyotiSaka (a procrastinator -- always waiting for > the right alignment of planets before he acts) This word could mean also "one who assist/helps fire", i.e. "one who puts (something) on fire", "a fire-raiser". With best wishes, Sergei Schmalz. From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Tue Nov 23 12:17:10 1999 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei Schmalz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 13:17:10 +0100 Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search (the trouble with ali) In-Reply-To: <19991123115244.13481.rocketmail@web1406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227053979.23782.12246939782620937460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The trouble with ali as "bee" is, in what way does a > bee characterize a type of sevakAdhama? That can be easily answered, if You look up the word in MW dictionary. It's not just a common bee, rather a large black bee with a sting (there are quite a lot of these in India, I saw myself many in Mayapur). Hence, it's an sevakAdhama, because it tends to sting us. :( With best wishes, Sergei Schmalz. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 23 21:35:59 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 13:35:59 -0800 Subject: Wheat Message-ID: <161227053988.23782.13467788833877988124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Also: dr. *kOLam/kULam > Kharia ku.da & Mundari kode. Please give the -V.dV- word list from Munda languages. Atleast, some Munda words with intervocalic .d are from Dravidian. With only few Munda tribal dialects showing retroflexion and all Munda languages recorded fairly recently, does the Munda .d retroflexion intervocalically come from Dravidian? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Nov 23 23:37:27 1999 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 18:37:27 -0500 Subject: Wheat Message-ID: <161227053990.23782.6301290555157902424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It was pointed out in an earlier mail that there is a retroflexion gradient from the morthwest to the south, gujarati having very weak retroflexion and tamil and malayalam being strongly retroflexed. Words like badA(big) or gaNesh require some retroflexion. All Indian languages are retroflexed to some degree. I have found punjabi speakers using retroflexes in words like nAl where. the l is pretty strongly retroflexed. Everyone must have noticed that dentals are used all over south asia bangladesh to pak and afghanistan, but dissappear rather abruptly once we leave south asia. People from western and central asia, russia and most of europe( excluding english, german and the like) dont use dentals either. I am no linguist but I would think that this is a pretty significant divide and an important marker in determining language drift or evolution. Is there any popular explanation for this? From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Nov 24 00:13:32 1999 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 19:13:32 -0500 Subject: Wheat Message-ID: <161227053993.23782.15636931201384343671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, big mistake by dentals I meant retroflexes sounded more to the front than ones like rl etc.. I hope people dont get confused. -----Original Message----- From: Rajarshi Banerjee [mailto:rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM] Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 6:37 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Wheat It was pointed out in an earlier mail that there is a retroflexion gradient from the morthwest to the south, gujarati having very weak retroflexion and tamil and malayalam being strongly retroflexed. Words like badA(big) or gaNesh require some retroflexion. All Indian languages are retroflexed to some degree. I have found punjabi speakers using retroflexes in words like nAl where. the l is pretty strongly retroflexed. Everyone must have noticed that dentals are used all over south asia bangladesh to pak and afghanistan, but dissappear rather abruptly once we leave south asia. People from western and central asia, russia and most of europe( excluding english, german and the like) dont use dentals either. I am no linguist but I would think that this is a pretty significant divide and an important marker in determining language drift or evolution. Is there any popular explanation for this? From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Nov 24 00:20:43 1999 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 19:20:43 -0500 Subject: correction retroflexes Message-ID: <161227053995.23782.4623469324850427909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry: I made an absent minded error earlier here is a correction: It was pointed out in an earlier mail that there is a retroflexion gradient from the morthwest to the south, gujarati having very weak retroflexion and tamil and malayalam being strongly retroflexed. Words like badA(big) or gaNesh require some retroflexion. All Indian languages are retroflexed to some degree. I have found punjabi speakers using retroflexes in words like nAl where. the l is pretty strongly retroflexed. Everyone must have noticed that retroflexes are used all over south asia bangladesh to pak and afghanistan, but dissappear rather abruptly once we leave south asia. People from western and central asia, russia and most of europe( excluding english, german and the like) dont use retroflexes either. I am no linguist but I would think that this is a pretty significant divide and an important marker in determining language drift or evolution. Is there any popular explanation for this? From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Tue Nov 23 21:06:05 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 99 21:06:05 +0000 Subject: Usage of the word shraman In-Reply-To: <01BF358A.74E13B20.mahesh@starnetinc.com> Message-ID: <161227053986.23782.9970076091375835557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:11:57 -0600 Send reply to: Indology From: Mahesh Shah Subject: Re: Usage of the word shraman To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Dear list members, > > I would like to know the usage of the (sanskrit?) word "shraman" in all its contexts, especially Jainism. > > I would lalso like to know its etymology. > > Thanks > > mahesh Reply The term shramaNa (monk) is used in Jaina works in contrast to the term shrAvaka (a pious householder). It appears to have been derived from the root shram, to toil, and signifies one who is devoted to a variety of penance and vows in their fullest sense (mahAvrata) as against a shrAvaka who practises vows in a limited sense (aNuvrata). KSA From BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA Wed Nov 24 10:57:03 1999 From: BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (GHOSE,LYNKEN,MR) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 99 05:57:03 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit texts Message-ID: <161227053997.23782.9933703636607588503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology Members: Besides the Sanskrit textbooks already mentioned, Robert Goldman's and Sally S. Goldman's textbook, Devavaan.ipraves'ika is also quite effective. It comes with 4 cassettes as well. Ashok Aklujkar's method also comes with 5 cassettes. Madhav Deshpande's and Walter Maurer's texts are very useful as well. Lynken Ghose McGill University From BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA Wed Nov 24 13:08:11 1999 From: BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (GHOSE,LYNKEN,MR) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 99 08:08:11 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit textbooks correction Message-ID: <161227053999.23782.2533858333833384694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology Members: I just wanted to post the full bibliographic references for the text- books I mentioned, and correct a typo I made in the title of Goldman's book. 1) Devavaan.iipraves'ikaa by Robert and Sally S. Goldman. Berkeley: University of California, Center for South Asia Studies, 1999 (3rd edition). (with 4 cassettes) 2) Sam.skr.tasubodhinii by Madhav Deshpande. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan, Center for South and Southeast Easian Studies, 1997. 3) The Sanskrit Language: An Introductory Reader and Grammar by Walter H. Maurer. Surrey: Curzon Press, 1995. 4) Sanskrit: An Easy Introduction to an Enchanting Language by Ashok Aklujkar. Vancouver: Department of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, 1992. (with 5 cassettes) Hope this helps, Lynken Ghose McGill University From 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Nov 24 14:33:22 1999 From: 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 99 09:33:22 -0500 Subject: Diacritics font Message-ID: <161227054000.23782.15265330880629749054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List-members, I am in need of computer fonts for writing both diacritics as well as Devanaagarii. I am using a PC and have to write in MS Word 97 and MS Access. I have so far been using the Transliteration Vijay diacritics font, but have discovered that it is not fully compatible with MS Word 97, since the spaces between the letters are not recognized as such but as characters, which gives problems with line wrapping, etc. Can you share your experiences with me? Which fonts are the best to use with these PC programs? With best regards, Ulrich T. Kragh University of Copenhagen From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Nov 24 16:12:16 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 99 11:12:16 -0500 Subject: Parasol in India Message-ID: <161227054006.23782.11562452606195889583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A computer search turned up the following two titles which I have examined: LC Control Number: 75484019 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: Crawford, T. S. Main Title: A history of the umbrella. Published/Created: Newton Abbot, David & Charles, 1970. Description: 220 p. illus., facsim. 23 cm. ISBN: 0715347993 Notes: Includes bibliographical references. Subjects: Umbrellas and parasols--History. LC Classification: GT2210 .C7 1970b Dewey Class No.: 391/.44 National Bib. No.: B70-08813 CALL NUMBER: GT2210 .C7 1970b LC Control Number: 92164145 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: Weber, Marga. Main Title: Baldachine und Statuenschreine / Marga Weber. Published/Created: Roma : G. Bretschneider Editore, 1990. Description: xviii, 259 p., [58] p. of plates : ill. ; 30 cm. ISBN: 887689036X Notes: Slight revision of the author's thesis (doctoral)--Universit?t Frankfurt am Main, 1982. Includes bibliographical references (p. xvii-xviii) and index. Subjects: Baldachins (Architecture)--History. Baldachins (Architecture) in art--Catalogs. Umbrellas and parasols--History. Umbrellas and parasols in art--Catalogs. Series: Archaeologica, 0391-9293 ; 87 LC Classification: NA5062 .W43 1990 CALL NUMBER: NA5062 .W43 1990 Both are scholarly, have bibliography, although the Weber is heavier than the Crawford title. The Crawford title discusses the umbrella and parasol in India and Greater India. Weber discusses both sunshades (with a single pole) and canopies (with 2, 4, or more poles) as belonging to both human dignitaries and divinities. The parasol of honor was clearly in use in Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Achemenian Persia. If one wants to investigate the parasol's use in India prior to currently readable written records one should look at the Harappan Culture seals to see if they show anything like it. Even the use of baldachins/canopies for gods might show that protection from the sun was reserved for some for honor and not allowed to all for convenience and comfort. Allen Thrasher From k.kupfer at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Wed Nov 24 14:50:20 1999 From: k.kupfer at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Katharina Kupfer) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 99 15:50:20 +0100 Subject: Diacritics font Message-ID: <161227054002.23782.8207858861566905729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> TITUS offers some TrueType Fonts including diacrtics. You can download them from http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de "Instrumentalia", then "Weichware/Zeichensaetze" for transcribing Devanagari http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/software/fonts/titidgft.htm I havn't used one of them in MS Access, but they will work with Word. Best regards KK -- ...................................................................................... Katharina Kupfer M.A. http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/kkupfer.htm Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft : Tel. +- 49 - 69 - 798 23 139 Universitaet Frankfurt : Fax +- 49 - 69 - 798 22 873 PF 11 19 32 : k.kupfer at em.uni-frankfurt.de D - 60054 Frankfurt http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/tocharic/tht.htm From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK Wed Nov 24 16:04:42 1999 From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 99 16:04:42 +0000 Subject: Diacritics font In-Reply-To: <199911240934_MC2-8E76-6315@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <161227054004.23782.4209316313539325648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Ulrich T. Kragh wrote: > Dear List-members, > I am in need of computer fonts for writing both diacritics as well as > Devanaagarii. > > I am using a PC and have to write in MS Word 97 and MS Access. > > I have so far been using the Transliteration Vijay diacritics font, but > have discovered that it is not fully compatible with MS Word 97, since the > spaces between the letters are not recognized as such but as characters, > which gives problems with line wrapping, etc. > > Can you share your experiences with me? Which fonts are the best to use > with these PC programs? I may be biased, since I built them, but I have the impression that the CSX+ fonts are probably now the most popular ones to use on a PC. (Over half of all downloads of electronic Mahabharata text are done in CSX+ format.) Since they are legal freeware, you might as well have a look at them: go to the URL below (http://bombay...) and follow the link fonts => csx+. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Wed Nov 24 16:59:42 1999 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 99 17:59:42 +0100 Subject: Diacritics font Message-ID: <161227054008.23782.16210380661265087070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Smith wrote: > On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Ulrich T. Kragh wrote: > > > Dear List-members, > > I am in need of computer fonts for writing both diacritics as well as > > Devanaagarii. > > > > I am using a PC and have to write in MS Word 97 and MS Access. > > > > I have so far been using the Transliteration Vijay diacritics font, but > > have discovered that it is not fully compatible with MS Word 97, since the > > spaces between the letters are not recognized as such but as characters, > > which gives problems with line wrapping, etc. > > > > Can you share your experiences with me? Which fonts are the best to use > > with these PC programs? > > I may be biased, since I built them, but I have the impression that the > CSX+ fonts are probably now the most popular ones to use on a PC. (Over > half of all downloads of electronic Mahabharata text are done in CSX+ > format.) Since they are legal freeware, you might as well have a look at > them: go to the URL below (http://bombay...) and follow the link fonts => > csx+. > It is my understanding however that CSX+-encoded fonts are not particularly useful for mixed-language documents, that is, documents which contain Sanskrit and European languages other than English (e.g. German, French, Danish) that require in themselves diacritical characters. The reason for this is that CSX+ has Sanskrit diacritical characters in places where ordinary TrueType-fonts, on which amongst other things Windows' keyboard-layout is based, have diacritics for such languages. If you want to type text in more than one language, these are points that should perhaps be considered. I myself have used John Smith's Norman fonts, slightly adapted to my own needs, for several years, but am now just waiting for the possibilities that a full implementation of Unicode in Windows 2000 will (hopefully) offer, in order not to have any hassles with German umlauts anymore ... -- Birgit Kellner Institut f. Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Universitaet Wien / Vienna University From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 25 15:15:22 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 99 07:15:22 -0800 Subject: karko.taka Message-ID: <161227054016.23782.14549010120989432637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The jewels given out by nAgas' mouths is a very ancient pan-Indian myth. NaagamaNi is a common personal name among the South Indians. Sangam tamil texts speak many times of the gemstones engendered from snakes. Vishnu's snake couch has gemstones made up of gems issuing out of its multiple heads. Does the legend of nAgas giving rise to precious gems appear in vedic literature or it begins in the epic period and buddhism/jainism? Buddha gets protection and is seated under the nAgam also. Word-initial k-/c- alterations are common in Dravidian (Eg., Hand=kai(ta./kan.) & ceyyi (tel.); ear=cevi(ta.) & kivi (kan.); cEralam (ta.) & kEraLa (mal.) ) and word-initial c in tamil is pronounced as s in northern dialects. Karko.taka is pre-Aryan in India. "karko.ta(ka)" is a snake appearing in the RVKh 2.14.8 and as "'sarko.ta" in the AV. (p. 30, Witzel, 1999, EJVS). karkoTa/sarkoTa/zarkoTa is present in Monier-Williams. All Dravidian tongues has "kal" (stone/ gem stone) and "ko.tu" (to give). Tamil sandhi has -l+k- => -.rk-, or using the commonly found l-r changes, is Sanskrit karko.ta(ka) from dr. kalko.ta whose meaning is gemstone-giver? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG Thu Nov 25 00:22:54 1999 From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 99 08:22:54 +0800 Subject: Diacritics font Message-ID: <161227054011.23782.1655015097021103109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Institute for Indology and Tamil Studies offers one font (called IITS) containig all the diacritics needed for the transliteration of Sanskrit and related languages, of Dravidian languages and of some Tribal languages. The font is easy to use in Word for Windows, once you install your keyboard-layout (through the insert-symbol-shortcut key function) with those signs that you need. I use this font mixed with Times New Roman, through a macro that allows to switch fonts with a single key-stroke. You can download the font from the home-page of the Institute: http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/index.e.html Ulrike From christian.coseru at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Nov 24 22:43:56 1999 From: christian.coseru at ANU.EDU.AU (Christian Coseru) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 99 09:43:56 +1100 Subject: Diacritics font In-Reply-To: <199911240934_MC2-8E76-6315@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <161227054009.23782.17759185000343509004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ulrich T. Kragh wrote: >Dear List-members, >I am in need of computer fonts for writing both diacritics as well as >Devanaagarii. > >I am using a PC and have to write in MS Word 97 and MS Access. > >I have so far been using the Transliteration Vijay diacritics font, but >have discovered that it is not fully compatible with MS Word 97, since the >spaces between the letters are not recognized as such but as characters, >which gives problems with line wrapping, etc. > >Can you share your experiences with me? Which fonts are the best to use >with these PC programs? If you are using MS Word 97 to type your documents then you could try John Richards' Word 97 templates for writing both devanaagarii and diacritics. The templates come with the Roman Sanskrit Serif TTF and CSX Devanaagari font. I have not tested the devanaagari but for transliteration this is by far the easiest and the most compatible solution. You do not need any complicated key strokes for encoding, just the key. The templates and the fonts are available for free download from the author's page at http://www.stackpole.freeserve.co.uk/sanskrit/ Christian Coseru Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/ahcen/coseru From mirek at MS19.HINET.NET Thu Nov 25 02:05:19 1999 From: mirek at MS19.HINET.NET (Miroslav Rozehnal) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 99 10:05:19 +0800 Subject: Diacritics font In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991125094356.00952ad0@pophost.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227054013.23782.10126246622656880806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Ulrich T. Kragh wrote: > > >Dear List-members, > >I am in need of computer fonts for writing both diacritics as well as > >Devanaagarii. > > > >I am using a PC and have to write in MS Word 97 and MS Access. > > > >I have so far been using the Transliteration Vijay diacritics font, but > >have discovered that it is not fully compatible with MS Word 97, since the > >spaces between the letters are not recognized as such but as characters, > >which gives problems with line wrapping, etc. > > > >Can you share your experiences with me? Which fonts are the best to use > >with these PC programs? As for transliteration, we are using the Foreign1 font. You can download it at http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/SANSKRIT/foreign1.zip Miroslav Rozehnal The Institute of Buddhist Studies From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Thu Nov 25 13:38:42 1999 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei Schmalz) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 99 14:38:42 +0100 Subject: Rg Veda etc. Message-ID: <161227054015.23782.14991473198927180035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.itihaas.com/ancient/contrib1.html Any comments? With best wishes, Sergei Schmalz. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 26 12:31:30 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 04:31:30 -0800 Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search (the trouble with ali) Message-ID: <161227054022.23782.4965798726116497800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> << Cf. Somadeva?s Kathaasaritsaagara, Lambaka 10, Tara"nga 5, stanza 118 (ed. Durgaaprasaad/Parab, 4th ed., Bombay 1930, p. 318): av.rttika.m prabhu.m bh.rtyaa apu.spa.m bhramaraas tarum | ajala.m ca saro ha.msaa mu~ncanty api ciro.sitaa.h | | ``Servants [leave] a master who has no means of livelihood, bees [leave] a flowerless tree, and geese leave a lake without water even after a long habitation." >> There is a famous poem by AuvaiyAr (mediaeval, not from sangam era) that has: "aRRa kuLattil aRu nIrp paRavai pOla". Here, geese leaving a lake without water even after a long habitation are compared to opportunistic friends' nature; This is contrasted in that poem with the lotus stalks which flourish or wither away depending on the lake's fortunes. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 26 14:01:10 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 06:01:10 -0800 Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search (the trouble with ali) Message-ID: <161227054024.23782.4476386271469763854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is one more place where beetles leaving is painted negatively. Kamban, in his epic Ramayanam, describes the sethubandhanam by monkeys and bears. VAnaras throw hills and hill-like elephants into the sea. The beetles swarming to taste the elephants' musth rise above the sea. The beetles leaving the elephants to death is compared to prostitutes leaving their patrons once the purses go dry. In the next song, the beetle/prostitute behaviour is contrasted to family(kula) ladies who are like the creepers hugging the big trees even when the hills get submerged into the sea. 1) mUcu vaNTu in2am, mum mata mAvin2pin2 Acai koNTan2apOl toTarntu ATiya, Ocai oN kaTal kun2RoTu avai puka, vEcai maGkaiyar Am en2a, mINTavE. 2) nilam araGkiya vEroTu nEr paRittu, alamarum tuyar eytiya Ayin2um, vala maraGkaLai viTTila, mAcu ilAk kula maTantaiyar en2n22, koTikaLE. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 26 16:00:29 1999 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 08:00:29 -0800 Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search (the trouble with ali) Message-ID: <161227054025.23782.9389014207779587955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you. That was excellent. Now can anyone help with vaa.na? What makes an "arrow" characteristic of a sevakaadhama? --- Roland Steiner wrote: > On 23 Nov 99, at 3:52, Jan Brzezinski wrote: > > > The trouble with ali as "bee" is, in what way does > a > > bee characterize a type of sevakAdhama? > > Cf. Somadeva?s Kathaasaritsaagara, Lambaka 10, > Tara"nga 5, > stanza 118 (ed. Durgaaprasaad/Parab, 4th ed., Bombay > 1930, p. > 318): > av.rttika.m prabhu.m bh.rtyaa apu.spa.m > bhramaraas tarum | > ajala.m ca saro ha.msaa mu~ncanty api > ciro.sitaa.h | | > ``Servants [leave] a master who has no means > of livelihood, > bees [leave] a flowerless tree, and geese leave a > lake without > water even after a long habitation." > > With kind regards, > Roland Steiner > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Fri Nov 26 19:25:02 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 09:25:02 -1000 Subject: karko.taka In-Reply-To: <19991125151523.75334.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227054029.23782.8255612164674612544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > The jewels given out by nAgas' mouths is a very ancient pan-Indian > myth. The association of dragons with gemstones is also an ancient Chinese myth. As with "nAga"s in India, dragons in China are also usually associated with water. I don't know whether they got these notions from us or vice-versa. Does anyone else know? Regards, Raja. From xacobad at WILNETONLINE.NET Fri Nov 26 05:25:58 1999 From: xacobad at WILNETONLINE.NET (Francis) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 10:55:58 +0530 Subject: Rg Veda etc. Message-ID: <161227054018.23782.6380548837330645364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read the Contribution with great interest. I am no historian, but I get the impression that the contributor has a clear Sangh-Parivar aim of rewriting history and uses data to do the same. I wonder why the contributor has not used any linguistic data. The similarity between the Indo-Aryan and the Iranian is explained away with reverse migration theory. But nothing is said about the vestiges of Dravidian languages in North-West India, namely in Afghanistan (Brahui), North-East and Northern Indian tribal dialects of Dravidian family. The earlier explanation of migration into India of the so called Aryans and pushing the Dravidians to hilly areas of North-West, North-East and South seem to make more sense. Could the contributor try to explain this? Parmar, F.G. -----Original Message----- From: Sergei Schmalz To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 5:39 AM Subject: Rg Veda etc. >http://www.itihaas.com/ancient/contrib1.html > > Any comments? > >With best wishes, >Sergei Schmalz. From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Fri Nov 26 12:07:03 1999 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 13:07:03 +0100 Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search (the trouble with ali) In-Reply-To: <19991123115244.13481.rocketmail@web1406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227054020.23782.9560235167099030872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 23 Nov 99, at 3:52, Jan Brzezinski wrote: > The trouble with ali as "bee" is, in what way does a > bee characterize a type of sevakAdhama? Cf. Somadeva?s Kathaasaritsaagara, Lambaka 10, Tara"nga 5, stanza 118 (ed. Durgaaprasaad/Parab, 4th ed., Bombay 1930, p. 318): av.rttika.m prabhu.m bh.rtyaa apu.spa.m bhramaraas tarum | ajala.m ca saro ha.msaa mu~ncanty api ciro.sitaa.h | | ``Servants [leave] a master who has no means of livelihood, bees [leave] a flowerless tree, and geese leave a lake without water even after a long habitation." With kind regards, Roland Steiner From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 26 22:10:12 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 14:10:12 -0800 Subject: karko.taka Message-ID: <161227054032.23782.17680488909305599294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1) Was there a karkoTaka dynasty in India? Where? (Kashmir?), when? 2) Does the MBh. or some other text tell about karkoTaka and gemstones? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Fri Nov 26 18:04:18 1999 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 19:04:18 +0100 Subject: Rg Veda etc. Message-ID: <161227054027.23782.6444371447648771116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Sergei Schmalz, Dear Mr. Francis Parmar, You seem to be unaware that the topic of the Aryan invasion theory has been banned from this list. Anyway, Prof. Dinesh Agarwal's text pointed out by you is not bad but it is a bit obsolete. The debate has moved on. For a discussion of recent contributions including the Sergent and Deshpande & Bronkhorst books, I invite you to visit my website: http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ Your comments are welcome at koenraad.elst at pandora.be, but not on this list, please. Yours sincerely, Dr. Koenraad Elst From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 27 01:57:44 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 20:57:44 -0500 Subject: CSX+ Fonts and ISO draft standard for transliteration Message-ID: <161227054033.23782.3702596439915490746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, The recent discussion about fonts for transliteration of devanagari made me wonder about the two following points which I think are relevent. 1) Are CSX+ encoded fonts the only ones presently available that fully implement the ISO draft standard for the transliteration of Indian languages. 2) Are Dr. John Smith's fonts (which I use and appreciate very much, particularily the times roman) the only ones currently available that implement the CSX+ encoding. Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Sat Nov 27 06:08:59 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 22:08:59 -0800 Subject: Earliest occurrence of Skt. word for "zero" Message-ID: <161227054035.23782.15237432836446937698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the earliest occurrence of a Skt. word for "zero" in a purely numerical context, i.e., while unambiguously referring to numbers, such as when enumerating numbers? Thanks Chandra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 27 14:46:44 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 99 06:46:44 -0800 Subject: karko.taka Message-ID: <161227054040.23782.17273088667123532539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. A. Karp wrote: >Four times in a narrative context (Story of Nala - III, 63.4,9,13; III, >70,27). Interestingly - in connection with Kali. Conscious word-play >-kal/r-koTa(ka)~kali? Perhaps. The drav. explanation of karkoTaka as "gem-giver" jives well with nala (< dr. naLa('black')) myth. niSAda - a "robber" tribe who are away from grAmas ('sitting at the door'). This nala('black') can be compared with nALa/naLa/naDa-giri ('black mountain') elephant in the Buddha legends. In tamil and telugu, nal-/naL- mean 'black'. Nallamalai ('black mountain') range is where river KrishnaveNi (< dr. kaNNapeNNA) flows. Many Sanskrit words with nal-/nAl- formed from the dr. naL-/nal-(black) like nAlika('buffalo') and nArayana('black god'). narAyaNI(durgaa) is zyAmalaa. Perhaps, nala('black') and karkoTaka ('gem-giver') are connected in the MBh. from a dr. source, for 40% of karkoTaka occurence is in the nala episode. H. Luders has a 2nd century inscription from Nagarjunakonda about a temple dedicated to nODagiriizvarasvAmin. Does this ins. have a variant reading "nADagiri" (< dr. nALamalai, nallamalai range). The 1-2 cent. brahmi letters do not differentiate nO and nA well enough. Was nADagiri read as nODagiri by epigraphists who have not thought of nADagiri=nALagiri? Can someone help me with what Luders says? Appreciatios for any comment from Indologists. Regards, N. Ganesan A while ago, I got a reply thru' privete mail. >[Begin quote] > Nalagiri as 'black mountain' would indeed be a good name for an >elephant, because the concepts of mountain, rain-cloud and elephant >are more or less interchangeable in Indian mythology. > > As far as Nala is concerned: Though I cannot find the Nala of the >Mahabharata being described as black, I find the idea tempting. >Because after having been bitten by the snake demon Karkotaka in the >forest, Nala changes completely his appearance and might very well >have assumed a black colour due to the poison. One might compare the >blackness of Shiva's throat, which is also regarded as the effect of >poison. Nala becomes a perfect charioteer, like Krishna ('the Black >one'!), .............[cut] > On the other hand, a king naDa naiSidha is already mentioned in >the zatapathabrAhmaNa, and the Sanskrit word naDa means 'reed' and >must be connected with the Rgvedic word nada, 'reed', which has >Iranian and other Indoeuropean connections. The whole question is >extremely complicated, [...] >[End quote] > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hart at POLBOX.COM Sat Nov 27 07:40:01 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 99 08:40:01 +0100 Subject: karko.taka In-Reply-To: <19991126221012.93838.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227054037.23782.7449063071205229243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:10 26.11.99 -0800, N. Ganesan wrote: >2) Does the MBh. or some other text tell about karkoTaka and gemstones?> ---------------------------------------- According to my favourite search program (Examine 32), MBh mentions KarkoTaka ten times. No gemstones (maNi) in vicinity (up to twenty lines, 1600 characters). Six times KarkoTaka appears in lists enumerating the names of great serpents (I,31.5; I,114.60; II,9.9; V,101.9; VIII,30.45; XVI,5.14). Four times in a narrative context (Story of Nala - III, 63.4,9,13; III, 70,27). Interestingly - in connection with Kali. Conscious word-play - kal/r-koTa(ka)~kali? With best regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland ------------------ [POLBOX - INFORMACJA] -------------------- Zagraj w Internecie - w Brydza, Scrabble, Szachy lub Warcaby! Nowy serwer gier online zaprasza - http://games.polbox.pl/ ------------------------------------------------------------ From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 27 21:24:03 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 99 13:24:03 -0800 Subject: karko.taka Message-ID: <161227054042.23782.5430825700197693529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayana Srirangaraja asks: > >The association of dragons with gemstones >is also an ancient Chinese myth. As with >"nAga"s in India, dragons in China are also >usually associated with water. I don't know >whether they got these notions from us or >vice-versa. Does anyone else know? > If I understand correctly,from what I remember of my reading of Lin Yu-Tang's "Wisdom of China and India", many of the features of dragons were borrowed from Hindu/Buddhist mythology though dragons seems to be have been a Chinese creation. Wonders do occur! Once in a bluemoon, the Hinduttvavaadis actually have it right!!!!! Regards, KRishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kaykay at GIASBMA.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Nov 27 17:13:21 1999 From: kaykay at GIASBMA.VSNL.NET.IN (K.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 99 17:13:21 +0000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227054039.23782.4659740895041587038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Did the Singhalese bring the Buddhist relegion with them when they settled in present Sri Lanka(assuming they migrated from elsewhere)or were they converted in-situ? thanks Krish. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Nov 28 17:49:59 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 99 17:49:59 +0000 Subject: Diacritics font In-Reply-To: <383C197E.4B6E6FEC@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227054045.23782.11598691522923803277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, birgit kellner wrote: > It is my understanding however that CSX+-encoded fonts are not > particularly useful for mixed-language documents, that is, documents > which contain Sanskrit and European languages other than English (e.g. > German, French, Danish) that require in themselves diacritical > characters. The reason for this is that CSX+ has Sanskrit diacritical > characters in places where ordinary TrueType-fonts, on which amongst > other things Windows' keyboard-layout is based, have diacritics for > such languages. If you want to type text in more than one language, > these are points that should perhaps be considered. This is the opposite of the actual case. The CS and CSX character sets were designed specifically to include as many European accented characters as could be accommodated, in addition to those essential for Sanskrit and Vedic. The German and French scholars who sat round the table in Vienna, where CS/CSX was born, ensured that this was the case. However, the more Indic characters you put into your font, the fewer spaces are left for other things like European chars. So CS has most European chars, while CSX+ has the fewest (but the richest choice of Indic characters). Best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Nov 28 17:51:22 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 99 17:51:22 +0000 Subject: "Indian Journal of History of Sciences" In-Reply-To: <19991121102332.1922.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227054047.23782.17508450162179376517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Kailash Srivastava wrote: > Who is the publisher? I needed email/fax/address. > > Kailash Srivastava Indian National Science Academy, Delhi. Don't have the address to hand, but you can probably find it in the World of Learning. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From garzilli at SHORE.NET Sun Nov 28 23:51:38 1999 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 99 18:51:38 -0500 Subject: IJTS & JSAWS Message-ID: <161227054052.23782.11397101277813131939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, 1) I am very glad to announce that Ms. Kapila Vatyasyan, the Director of the Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts (IGNCA) in New Delhi has accepted to become a member of the Editorial Board of the *Journal of South Asia Women Studies* (http://www,asiatica.org/) 2) If you want to subscribe to the *International Journal of Sanskrit Studies* (avg. 3 msgs per year) and the *Journal od South Asia Women Studies* mailing lists (avg. 6 msgs per year) mailto: ijts-subscribe at asiatica.org or jsaws-subscribe at asiatica.org subject and/or body: subscribe The subscrition to both lists is free. The subscrition to each journal is US$ 35 (per life). You can submit papers, read abstracts, subscribe on our page http://www.asiatica.org -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From mchari at BCM.TMC.EDU Mon Nov 29 02:37:59 1999 From: mchari at BCM.TMC.EDU (Mohan Vedantha Chari) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 99 20:37:59 -0600 Subject: Lecture by Arnold Toynbee in 1952 Message-ID: <161227054054.23782.11446200474498397154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the Indology netwoork- I would be grateful if someone could advise me as to how I may procure a copy of a lecture by the eminent British historian Arnold Toynbee. The lecture is said to have been delivered to the Philosophical Society of Edinburh University in November 1952. Mohan V. Chari. From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Sun Nov 28 20:55:13 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 99 02:25:13 +0530 Subject: Diacritics font In-Reply-To: <199911281743.XAA12177@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227054050.23782.14975198273754624493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:49:59 +0000, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, birgit kellner wrote: > > > > It is my understanding however that CSX+-encoded fonts are not > > particularly useful for mixed-language documents, that is, documents > > which contain Sanskrit and European languages other than English (e.g. > > German, French, Danish) that require in themselves diacritical > > characters. [...] > This is the opposite of the actual case. The CS and CSX character sets > were designed specifically to include as many European accented characters > as could be accommodated, in addition to those essential for Sanskrit and > Vedic. The German and French scholars who sat round the table in Vienna, > where CS/CSX was born, ensured that this was the case. Actually, both of you are right / wrong, in different ways. The problem is that the accented European letters bear certain ASCII codes according to the ANSI coding scheme (used by Windows and Linux) but other codes according to the DOS/OEM coding scheme (used by the older PC-DOS and MS-DOS). The TrueType CSX+ fonts, as found on Dr. Smith's FTP site in Cambridge, follow the DOS scheme. This means that if we write something using Windows9x, or X Windows under Linux, we can type in Umlaute etc. according to the ANSI scheme, but when we change the font to one of the CSX+ fonts, all those Umlaute etc. will go wrong. Because I like those fonts so much, I have worked on this problem and solved it in the latest version of my own diacritical preprocessor. What you have to do is save your text in RTF format (Rich Text Format), which can be done when using word processors like StarOffice and MS Word (and others; this means you can use footnotes, italics, underlining, various paragraph formats, etc. etc.), then run the text through my program, then open the transformed text in the word processor, and you can change to one of the CSX+ fonts with all the accented letters as they ought to be. This sounds more cumbersome than it really is; I demonstrated this at the Oriental Research Institute here in Mysore, and within minutes people of the institute were using the program correctly. The Windows95/98 version is already available at: http://www.angelfire.com/in/zydenbos/indologie.html#Fonts I hope to put the Linux version there within a few days. RZ From Burkhard.Quessel at MAIL.BL.UK Mon Nov 29 14:48:15 1999 From: Burkhard.Quessel at MAIL.BL.UK (Burkhard Quessel) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 99 14:48:15 +0000 Subject: Vacancy Note: Curator for Urdu at the British Library Message-ID: <161227054055.23782.13209183320527940573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> THE BRITISH LIBRARY CURATOR OF SOUTH ASIAN ISLAMIC LANGUAGES ORIENTAL AND INDIA OFFICE COLLECTIONS A vacancy exists for a Curator of South Asian Islamic Languages in the South Asia Section of the British Library's Oriental and India Office Collections. The Library's collections of manuscripts and printed books in Urdu and the other modern Islamic languages of South Asia are among the largest and most important outside the subcontinent. The manuscripts include many early Dakhni works and volumes from the former Mughal Library at Delhi; the printed books are particularly strong in 19th-century material due to colonial legal deposit from 1867 onwards. The aim of the South Asia Section is to document, develop and make available the national collection of works in South Asian languages by the acquisition of printed books and manuscripts, cataloguing and indexing, editing and publishing material in the collections, and promoting the collections for the benefit of users in the UK and abroad. Your principal duties will include: advising the Section Head on matters concerning the collections and the Library's relations with cultural institutions in Pakistan; the selection of current research-level publications in Urdu, Panjabi, Sindhi, Kashmiri, Baluchi, and other minority languages; MARC-cataloguing of new acquisitions; identifying and consigning material for conservation and reprography; and providing information to users, both on-site and remote, about the collections and about the Islamic history and culture of South Asia more generally. You will form part of a close-knit curatorial team and will be expected to undertake occasional enquiry desk duties in the Oriental and India Office Collections Reading Room. You will also be expected to represent the Library at external conferences and to promote the collections by exhibitions and publications. You must have a degree or equivalent qualification/experience in Urdu and a knowledge of the Islamic history and culture of South Asia to degree level. A knowledge of another modern South Asian Islamic language, familiarity with MARC cataloguing, a qualification in librarianship, and/or experience of working in a research library, will all be advantages. Starting salary on appointment will be between ?15,548 and ?19,435 per annum depending on qualifications and experience. Annual increases thereafter will be performance related up to a maximum of ?23,322 per annum. For further details and an application form please telephone: 0207 412 7331 The closing date for the receipt of completed applications is: 10 December 1999. The British Library is an Equal Opportunities Employer. From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Mon Nov 29 15:25:21 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 99 15:25:21 +0000 Subject: Unsubscribe Message-ID: <161227054057.23782.11742496861709302004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From K.S. Arjunwadkar arjunwadkar at mcmail.com From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Nov 29 22:32:03 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 99 17:32:03 -0500 Subject: Lecture by Arnold Toynbee in 1952 Message-ID: <161227054059.23782.17184862286166100936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have examined S. Fiona Morton, A bibliography of Arnold Toynbee, Oxford U.P., 1980, the section "All other printed material [than Study of History]", years 1952-1956, and the index "Journals containing articles by Toynbee," and have been unable to find anything. If you could tell the subject I could also check the Subject and Geographical indexes. A search of LC's OPAC, OCLC, and RLIN found no Philosophical Society of Edinburgh University. There was a Philosophical Society of Edinburgh in the 18th c. of some distinction, but it does not appear to have continued. Was it merged or transferred into the Royal Society of Edinburgh, whose Transactions were published through 1966? However, in the 1840s the Transactions seem to cease to deal with anything but the natural sciences. So this line of attack does not look promising. I would contact the Edinburgh University Library, George Square, Edinburgh EH1 9LJ, tel. (131) 650-3384, fax. 667-9780, Email library at ed.ac.uk. Allen Thrasher I would be grateful if someone could advise me as to how I may procure a copy of a lecture by the eminent British historian Arnold Toynbee. The lecture is said to have been delivered to the Philosophical Society of Edinburh University in November 1952. Mohan V. Chari. From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 30 02:52:23 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 99 21:52:23 -0500 Subject: Transliteration, fonts and modern Indian Languages Message-ID: <161227054061.23782.652826440120420251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I have been asked to find a font to display some Indian chants on a video screen. Some of these are in Sanskrit, some in Hindi and some in Marathi. The chanting book from which these come follows the ISO draft standard for the transliteration of Indian languages and they want to maintain this standard. The video interface software requires TTF fonts. This is what prompted my question about whether CSX+ is the only font that fully implements this draft standard and whether Dr. John Smith's fonts were the only CSX+ encoded fonts. Some of the chants have long nasalized vowels (such as long nasalized e which is represented by e-macron-tilde). I found many fonts that had short vowels with a tilde but the only ones I found that had e-macron-tilde were Dr. Smith's CSX+ fonts. However the people putting on the chanting program want to see other typefaces. Dr. Smith's program mkt1font (written in PERL) appears to address this issue but it produces Type 1 fonts and the documentation says it requires t1asm and t1disasm which as far as I can see run under Unix or Linux. My system is Windows 98 and the video interface software requires True Type fonts. There appears to many font utilities that convert type 1 to True Type so theoretically this shouldn't be a problem. And since mkt1font is written in PERL it should run under windows (or be modifiable to run under it. Dr. Smiths documentation says its only been tested under Unix) but I don't know if t1asm and t1disasm are available for windows. 1)Has anyone on the list made the necessary changes to get mkt1font to run under windows? Or has a similar program that runs under windows? Or has another solution? 2)Also regarding the ISO draft transliteration standard I'm wondering about the rational of having the three nasalization indicators (anusvara, candrabindu and modern nasalization := tilde). Doctor Anthony P. Stone in his discussion of this standard at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trdis01.htm in the section on "Treatment of Nasalization" says "In Hindi, nasalisation of vowels is represented by candrabindu, but where a vowel matra has a portion above the line, only the dot (anusvara) is written. This is for reasons of space. Hence there is a question as to the appropriate transliteration of Devanagari candrabindu and anusvara. In Hindi a nasalised vowel is indicated by candrabindu unless the wovel extends above the tope line, when a dot alone is used. In this situation the two signs are allographs." The Indian Standard "Indian Script Code for Information Interchange - ISCII UDC 681.3" in section 4 Nature of the Indian Alphabet says under 4.3 Nasalization Sign: Chandrabindu "The chandrabindu denotes nasalization of the preceding vowel (can be implicit "a" vowel within a consonent). In Devanagari script it often gets substituted with Anuswar, as the latter is more convenient for writing. In some words, however, Anuswar and Chandrabindu can give different meanings. Hindi example ha&sa (laugh), haMsa (Swan)." [& represents chandrabindu and M represents anusvara] Would it be completely unambiguous to use chandrabindu for transliterated vowel nasalization and anusvara for consonent nasalization and thus eliminating the need for the third nasalization symbol the tilde? Isn't the ISCII document indicating that the real symbol for vowel nasalization is chandrabindu and that when anusvara is used for this it is a mere convenience. Also how long has the tilde been in use as a nasalization symbol? 3) I've come across an explicit transliteration standard for mute "a" in Hindi words. In "Kabir Legends and Ananta-Das's Kabir Parachai, SUNY press by David N. Lorenzen" in his notes on transliteration he has. "In the case of Hindi words, a mute a at the end of a word or before a hyphen is usually dropped. A final a is usually kept when it is preceded by two consonents (including nasals and semivowels)." Can someone tell me what the reason is for keeping final "a" after two consonents? Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 30 12:52:37 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 04:52:37 -0800 Subject: Age of the Veda ... Message-ID: <161227054075.23782.5224709168619192173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Niklas, >?From Prof. Witzel, Substrates in the OIA, in the recent EJVS, I understand that the RV's time range is between 1700 BCE to 1200 BCE. This is because no horse remains in S. Asia before 1700 BCE and the importance of horse in the RV religion. The lower date of 1200 BCE is indicated by the ushering in of the iron age in India. The vedicist, Prof. Thompson has suggested a date of 1000 BCE. Perhaps many Sanskrit texts are liberally assigned older dates. With Buddha's date being brought forward by 100 years or so, I read from experts that possiblity of interaction between Upanishads and Greeks is enhanced. Also, Haksar's translation of Bhasa's plays (Penguin) tells in the front page that Bhasa lived like 2-1 cent. BC to 1 cent. AD. I recall Prof. Steiner writing that Bhasa is no older than 6-7 centuries. In India, indigenous Aryan home advocates date Kalidasa to early centuries BCE, and they cite new Sanskrit inscriptions in 1st cenury BCE. I would like to know whether important inscriptions in Sanskrit exist prior to Rudradaman in 2nd cent. AD? (Iravatham Mahadevan said, "No"). Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rmanring at INDIANA.EDU Tue Nov 30 11:17:22 1999 From: rmanring at INDIANA.EDU (Rebecca Manring) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 06:17:22 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit text books info needed In-Reply-To: <003401bf336c$a8bb6080$2520accf@ramakris> Message-ID: <161227054073.23782.5015922508470004239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Goldman's Devavanipravesika is also useful, and affordable. It's published by the University of California at Berkeley, and a new edition just came out this year. I've been using it for years. Rebecca Manring India Studies Indiana University From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 30 16:33:04 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 08:33:04 -0800 Subject: Shourie Message-ID: <161227054084.23782.11948188050158711410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listers, How is the last name Shourie as in Arun Shourie explained from Punjabi? Is it related to Kuru country?, k & sh are interchangeable in Vedic and Tamil (s/sh written in ta. as 'c')? Is it connected with kulUTa, ulUTa, kuli(/u)dhara in Vedas? How is panchAla toponym and pancha-jana in RV explained? In tamil, ko.lu = plough share, u_lu = "to plough", u_lavar = farmer, ... (These words of farming are several orders of magnitude important in CT than nAJcil). Regards, N. Ganesan, PhD ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bernede at WLINK.COM.NP Tue Nov 30 08:33:32 1999 From: bernede at WLINK.COM.NP (BERNEDE Franck) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 08:33:32 +0000 Subject: Unsubscribe In-Reply-To: <0a88a0827151db9SKYNET@cwcom.net> Message-ID: <161227054065.23782.14742074621335810388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From F.Bernede : bernede at wlink.com.np F. Bernede cellist / ethnomusicologist Off : UPR 299 du CNRS, Villejuif. France Res :Basnetgaon - Patan. N?pal Tel : 00 977 1 528 051 Fax : 00 977 1 419 968 (Ambassade de France ? Kathmandu) E. Mail : bernede at wlink.com.np bernede@ easynet.fr Courrier : c/o Bernadette Vasseux Ambassade de france a Kathmandu / Nepal service de la valise diplomatique 128bis rue de l'univrsite 75351 Paris 07 SP From AppuArchie at AOL.COM Tue Nov 30 14:04:51 1999 From: AppuArchie at AOL.COM (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 09:04:51 -0500 Subject: TAMIL STUDENT Dr. G. U. Pope Message-ID: <161227054077.23782.9738790778552485343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> FROM TAMILPANI A Tamil Monthly. English Version by Ramalingam Shanmugalingam {A Tamil Student's Headstone in a Cemetery By I. Shanmuganathan (Nathan) Former Editor THINATHNTHI.} "G. U. Pope's life has captivated me most among the several blessed Tamil savants I read about. Born an Englishman, this great personality breathed Tamil and felt like a Tamil. G. U. Pope was born on 24-4-1820 in a hamlet in Edwards Island in the Canadian neighborhood. He came to Tamil Nadu as a Christian missionary in 1839, and lived in the service of Tamil and very early, he was highly influenced by the excellence of the Tamil language. He published such great works as THOLKAPPIYAM, NANNOOL, and made classical Tamil easier to English students, while Tamil students could afford means for a more comprehensive and fruitful study of the classics. He translated into English, THIRUKKURAL, NALADIYAR, THIRUVASAGAM, etc. THIRUKKURAL was translated into other languages before Pope. English translators did only partial translations. Rev. Pope deserves the credit for researching and producing a noteworthy full translation of THIRUKKURAL. He spent a greater part of his fortune to publish rear Tamil books. In his Preface to the English Publication of THIRUKKURAL, G. U. Pope on the excellence of Tamil wrote: "Tamil is a sophisticated unique language, with a rich vocabulary. It is the mother of all South Indian languages, Tamil literature was designed to create high moral standards, ethical codes and THIRUKKURAL is a glaring example of that. It is in a land of people with very high ethical codes and who nurture human discipline; such moral books are created and could be created. THIRUKKURAL is as clear as an unpolluted spring. Yes! THIRUKKURAL, the unique book, has come to remove the impurities of this world. 'Within a short time of my learning Tamil, I commenced translating THIRUKKURAL, for the benefit of Europeans. It took several years to complete the translation and I offer my gratitude to God for the final result." Pope's love for Tamil and THIRUKKURAL is abundantly clear from such expressions. Pope returned to England in 1882, having lived in Tamil Nadu for approximately 42 years. He accepted a Professorship at Oxford University, to teach Tamil and Telugu. He received the coveted Gold Medal given once in three years for meritorious service and to mark the Diamond Jubilee of Queen Victoria in 1906. Tamil Student. He wrote to the editor J. M. Nalla Samy Pillai of "Siddhantha Deepika" on October 20, 1900, requesting that after his death, the inscription on his headstone should be "A Tamil Student - and at least a portion of the cost to erect such a headstone should come with donations from wealthy and influential Tamils." Pope died on February 11, 1908. Professor Selvakesavaraya Mudaliyar, of the Tamil Department of Chennai Pachchayappan College, collected funds according to Pope's last wish and dispatched to London towards the headstone. What is happening to the Tombstone? Many of us cherish the idea of visiting this tombstone if we got a chance to go to London. M. P. Somasuntharam (Somu) " the well known writer, All India Radio fame for many years, and the successor to editor KALKI at "KALKI," was able to locate where Pope was buried in 1961 and paid his respects. M. P. Somu wrote in his book 'akkaryc cImy" as follows: "My several inquiries regarding the exact location of Pope's tombstone in Oxford from several of my friends in London came out blank. During my search in a book on Englishmen of great achievements, I learnt that pope was buried in the Saint Sepulcher Cemetery on an old street called Walton in Oxford. I chose the holiday a Sunday to visit the site. Young M. Gopalakrishnan accompanied me. We reached Oxford around 12.00 noon. Finally we reached the Saint Sepulcher Cemetery, from direction given on our request, only to find the two gates were locked. It was a great disappointment. We approached a cigarette vendor across the street for information. An old lady was taking care of business. She sensed our sadness from our demeanor, told us with great affection, "Friends! I sympathize with you. They have closed the cemetery now. There are 4000 tombstones here and interment of 12,000 bodies. They have closed this place for lack of any more burial grounds." Just imagine my disappointment at such news. "Friends" I can understand from your sadness, one of your forefathers is buried here. Do one thing; the Cemetery caretaker lives at the entrance to the cemetery. Tell him that you have come to pay respects to one of your forefathers and see what happens." The gentle lady advised. We got permission from the caretaker to enter the cemetery, having spoken thus, "The one sleeping under is not only my forefather; but also forefather to every Tamil and every South Indian." It is not an easy matter to identify Pope's tomb from among 4000 of them. Since the cemetery was not in use, there was neither a Register nor a list of the tombs. M. Gopalakrishnan and I went in two directions looking for Pope's name. The caretaker joins us in the search. The learned Pope's soul must have taken sympathy with our quandary. Because, from a bush in some remote corner of the cemetery the caretaker shouted "Pope." We ran to the spot in the front entrance to the right, below a yew tree, covered with dense vegetation was a large brush. Under which a marble slab, once the bush was cleared, showed very faint inscription. We dipped our handkerchief in the water Gopalakrishnan fetched in a vessel, and started rubbing the slab. The following inscription showed very clearly: "George Uglow Pope D.D. of South India sometime lecturer in tamil and telugu in the university and chaplain of balliol college, oxford, born 24th April 1820. Died 11th February 1908. This stone has been placed here by his family and by his Tamil friends in south india in loving admiration of his life long labours in the cause of oriental literature and philosophy" "I was exited reading these words! It was not Pope's family alone that erected this tombstone. I read that written portion that said his friends from South India over and over again. The mere mention that he was a South Indian and Tamil donations were also involved in erecting the tombstones are words that should be engraved gems in Tamil history, don't you agree? It is on those very words; jungle bush is spreading now! His wife is buried next to him. Goplakrishnan and I, on behalf of Tamils, paid our homage to both while circling the tombs in our typical Tamil fashion. The caretaker watching us developed a renewed devotion. He also paid his respects in the Christian tradition. "My friend! Please do not let the bush spread on this tomb. This is the tomb of one of our forefathers. There are thousands of us, his progenies, living in South India. Future visitors to this site should not go through the same ordeal we have gone through. From time to time smear with oil and keep these letters shining. You will be blessed for your good deed. My fellow countrymen will be grateful." With these words, we also showed him our appreciation." These are Somu's words. What are the lessons from this? 1. Pope's tomb is covered in brush for lack of proper care. If it was like that 40 years ago, what is the situation now? 2. The headstone does not reflect Pope's last wish. It should have the inscription "Tamil Student." A request to London Tamils. G. U. Pope was English by birth. But he was Tamil, Out and out pure Tamil. He was one of our Mother Tamil's blessed sons. "A few shining stars, the gift of God to foster virgin Tamil, and G. U. Pope was one of the few." So praised 'Tamil gentle breeze' Thiru V.Ka, G. U. Pope with his "word garland of renown." We are indebted to such a praiseworthy one and deserve our gratitude. Pope's tomb needs checking now. We have to make it presentable. A memorial marble headstone with the appropriate inscription both in English and Tamil describing his several good deeds to Tamil with TAMIL STUDENT Dr. G. U. Pope is sleeping here. Born Died 24 - 4 - 1820 11 - 2- 1908 (Inscribed in both Tamil and English) Pope deserves a mausoleum at the site of his tomb for his services to Tamil. Since, it is in a different country that may not be practical. But there should be no difficulty in erecting a memorial headstone. Any government action involves another country that will be time consuming as exchange of files take years. London Tamils, if they decide, can accomplish this within a month. Is donation required? Indications are Tamil nobilty within Tamil Nadu and elsewhere are ready to donate generously. Tamils of London! If you desire, - if you undertake, a mausoleum for Pope with no equal will be a reality in no time. Do this; do in haste; then and then only Pope will rest in Peace.] From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU Tue Nov 30 14:27:44 1999 From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 09:27:44 -0500 Subject: Transliteration, fonts and modern Indian Languages Message-ID: <161227054079.23782.9902796173791493416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have removed portions that I am not responding to: Harry Spier wrote: > > 2)Also regarding the ISO draft transliteration standard I'm wondering about > the rational of having the three nasalization indicators (anusvara, > candrabindu and modern nasalization := tilde). > SKIP... > Would it be completely unambiguous to use chandrabindu for transliterated > vowel nasalization and anusvara for consonent nasalization and thus > eliminating the need for the third nasalization symbol the tilde? Isn't the > ISCII document indicating that the real symbol for vowel nasalization is > chandrabindu and that when anusvara is used for this it is a mere > convenience. Also how long has the tilde been in use as a nasalization > symbol? > The pronunciation of the nasalized word and one with anusvara can be different and hence it is nt appropriate to use just one symbol. The example cited by Harry Spier Hindi example ha&sa (laugh), haMsa (Swan)." [& represents chandrabindu and M represents anusvara] illustrate this as well. I have not seen the modern tilde used, so it must be fairly new! Of course, most of these are discussions about Hindi/Marathi. We have had detailed discussion about the Sanskrit story! > > 3) I've come across an explicit transliteration standard for mute "a" in > Hindi words. In "Kabir Legends and Ananta-Das's Kabir Parachai, SUNY press > by David N. Lorenzen" in his notes on transliteration he has. "In the case > of Hindi words, a mute a at the end of a word or before a hyphen is usually > dropped. A final a is usually kept when it is preceded by two consonents > (including nasals and semivowels)." > > Can someone tell me what the reason is for keeping final "a" after two > consonents? > I presume the reason to drop the final "a" is to be faithful with the pronunciation in practice, which omits the final "a" and often many in the middle too! With multiple consonants, you need some amount of vowel to finish and so perhaps it is kept. In original devnagari, you keep the vowels anyway, since they are built in the characters. (BTW, note my "devnagari"; it illustrates dropping "a" in the middle from "deva". That is how the word is pronounced in non-sanskrit context! There are other "mis-spellings" in this word as well!) P.S. I personally prefer the Itranslator fontsfor generating as well as displaying devnagari characters. I believe they should be usable. Check the site; http://sanskrit.bhaarat.com/Omkarananda/Sanskrit/Itranslt.html . They have true-type fonts which look good too! -- |Avinash Sathaye Phone:(606)277-0130(Home), (606)257-8832(Office) | Web page: www.ms.uky.edu/~sohum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Tue Nov 30 08:39:40 1999 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 09:39:40 +0100 Subject: Age of the Veda ... Message-ID: <161227054067.23782.3286443956473699711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ms. Ulrike, You are apparently referring to M. Winternitz's History of Indian Literature (ca. 1905, I believe), who argues that Max M?ller's date of the Rg-Veda as 1200 BC is quite untenable, as you cannot cram the enormous linguistic and philosophical development from the first rshis to the Buddha in just six centuries. I have never seen an answer to that, and I think the argument is still pertinent. Nevertheless, very recent papers by some of the most authoritative scholars repeat Max M?ller's date without any new justification for it. Though of course they don't invoke Max M?ller's authority anymore, I suspect that the inertia factor (the fact that changing a once-established theory requires effort and new arguments) is effectively continuing Max M?ller's impact. Note that when Indian scholars take the trouble of criticizing Max M?ller, whose estimate was partly predetermined by his belief in Biblical chronology (Creation in 4004 BC), they are derided in the West for "fighting the battles of the past", as "scholarship has moved on since Max M?ller". In the case of Vedic chronology, scholarship has actually moved very little, and Winternitz's challenge to the conventional opinion has been ignored. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK Tue Nov 30 10:19:44 1999 From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 10:19:44 +0000 Subject: Transliteration, fonts and modern Indian Languages In-Reply-To: <19991130025223.20774.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227054069.23782.12200656847838284472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have replied privately to Harry Spier's message on this topic. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 30 10:53:56 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 11:53:56 +0100 Subject: SV: Age of the Veda ... Message-ID: <161227054071.23782.18038891688740538869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Koenraad Elst [SMTP:koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE] skrev 30. november 1999 09:40: > Ms. Ulrike, > > You are apparently referring to M. Winternitz's History of Indian Literature > (ca. 1905, I believe), who argues that Max M?ller's date of the Rg-Veda as > 1200 BC is quite untenable, as you cannot cram the enormous linguistic and > philosophical development from the first rshis to the Buddha in just six > centuries. I have never seen an answer to that, and I think the argument is > still pertinent. I think we have to make a difference between the linguistic character and formal structure on the Veda on the one hand and the contents on the other. I believe the year 1200 BCE mainly refers to the first. As for contents, the Rigveda contains material which can be compared to material in other Indo-European, as do indeed texts that linguistically later than the Vedas. This means that some of the contents of the Rig are extremely old. If they go back to the common Indo-European culture, we are talking about somewhere around 4.500 BCE. As for linguistic development, it can be demonstrated from languages that are historically better documented that linguistic development can be extremely rapid. A language may remain stable for many centuries only to change its character almost completely with the span of 2-300 years. E.g. the Norwegian spoken in 1350 would be uncomprehensible to Norwegians living in 1550. Is linguistic part of Winternitz's argument is therefore not relevant. When we discuss the age of the RV, we have to be precise about what we are discussing. The RV, as indeed the other Vedic scriptures, have grown with time and contain a number of chronological layers. They have no "date" in the modern sense of the word. The best we can do is to posit a terminus ante quem. That is precisely what Max M?ller did, and he was not dogmatic about it. His date has actually been questioned, but so far unconvincingly. Scholarly inertia does not come into it. The arguments used to question the date simply did not carry enough intellectual force. Incidentally, I am curious about the alleged dependence of Max M. on the traditional Biblical Chronology. Could anybody please give me the relevant bibliographical references? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 30 20:26:50 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 12:26:50 -0800 Subject: Shourie Message-ID: <161227054097.23782.17301336699538342241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shourie, I thought was from Lakshmi..in Punjab and/or UP, it is not unocommon to see names of Gods/Rsis became family names -Krishna, Vashishth, Bharadwaj etc are examples.. Krishna >Dear listers, > >How is the last name Shourie as in Arun Shourie explained from >Punjabi? Is it related to Kuru country?, k & sh are interchangeable >in Vedic and Tamil (s/sh written in ta. as 'c')? Is it connected with >kulUTa, ulUTa, kuli(/u)dhara in Vedas? How is panchAla toponym >and pancha-jana in RV explained? In tamil, ko.lu = plough share, >u_lu = "to plough", u_lavar = farmer, ... (These words of farming >are several orders of magnitude important in CT than nAJcil). > >Regards, >N. Ganesan, PhD > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 30 20:43:45 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 12:43:45 -0800 Subject: Age of the Veda ... Message-ID: <161227054099.23782.9377410365383217330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Apparently, there is a need for precision here: I did not say that >the Rig as we know goes back to the year 4.500 BCE. [...] >consequently go back to the period when the Indo-Europeans were together - >wherever and whenever that was. The point of >break-up is often said to be about 4,500 BCE. It is a rough figure, and I >am not dogmatic about it. David Anthony, 1996, Shards of Speech(Proto-Indo-European language), The Sciences, v. 36, p. 34-40: "Terms for wheel, axle and draft pole, and a verb meaning 'to go or convey in a vehicle' suggest that PIE existed as a single language after 3500 B.C., when wheeled vehicles were invented. PIE must have begun to disintegrate before 2000 B.C.: by 1500 B.C. three of its daughter languages - Greek, Hittie and Indic - had become quite dissimilar. Altogether, then the linguistic evidence points to a homeland between the Ural and Caucasus mountains, in the centuries between 3500 and 2000 B.C." 2000 BCE is the date of invention for Chariots. A 3000 BCE date (possibly later) for PIE breakup seems reasonable. It appears 4500 BCE is an overestimate, note the lower limit in Anthony is as late as 2000 BCE. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 30 17:57:29 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 12:57:29 -0500 Subject: Age of the Veda ... In-Reply-To: <01BF3B5D.F725A520.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227054091.23782.9725221830184261809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although he will no doubt jump in himself to clarify this, Michael Witzel has of course written quite a bit about this in exquisite detail (I have just been reading some of it this morning). The dates 1500-1200 BCE for the composition (not final linguistic redaction)--if I have understood rightly--of the earliest parts of the RV seems well established. I think it is incautious and potentially misleading to toss around dates like 4500 BCE , as Fosse has done, although he is rather careful to state that he does not claim this as a date for all or even part of RV. Not all his readers may be so careful. Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520 tel. 203-432-0828 From hid_kr at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 30 18:47:38 1999 From: hid_kr at HOTMAIL.COM (K R) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 13:47:38 -0500 Subject: Origins of telugu Message-ID: <161227054093.23782.15045480816103913557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, I am not a linguist, so possibly this may sound very naive. But I would like to know how you classify a language as either Dravidian or Indo-European. For example, most of the words in today's Telugu are from Sanskrit. And nearly all the major literary works (starting from Nannaya's Mahabharata in the 11th Cent. AD) are in Sanskritized telugu. It seems to me that the bond between today's Telugu and Sanskrit is much more pronounced than the relationship between Tamil and Telugu. - This fact came up when some one mentioned to me that Jayadeva's Gita Govinda (which is of course in Sanskrit) is very well known in Andhra Pradesh ... the reason of course being that a good knowledge of Telugu was sufficient to follow most of it. Also, this person told me that being a native Telugu speaker he cannot understand a word of Tamil. - Thanks for your help, KR ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 30 21:14:05 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 16:14:05 -0500 Subject: SV: Age of the Veda ... In-Reply-To: <01BF3B74.B9C05CE0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227054101.23782.3976538141865669665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not think that I mis-stated Fosse's position. But I do have to wonder about the utility of "dating" materials to 4500 BCE. From that point of view (if I understand LMF correctly), we may "date" shared inheritances very early indeed. That my email today may mention the story of Noah and his ark does not in any meaningful way connect my composition with Biblical or pre-Biblical traditions or narratives -- does it? Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520 tel. 203-432-0828 From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG Tue Nov 30 08:14:29 1999 From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 16:14:29 +0800 Subject: Age of the Veda ... Message-ID: <161227054063.23782.9785710035564639337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for this very naive question. Going through some of the good old "Histories of Indian Literature", I feel that - due to other works I undertook for the last several years - I have fully lost track of what is going on in Veda-research. Instead of starting on a very difficult search through Journals (which for the most part we might not yet have here, since our programme is absolutely new and thus the University library not yet really stocked for it...) I just put the question to this list: how are the oldest parts of Vedic literature dated nowadays? Ulrike __________________________________________________ Dr. Ulrike Niklas, Asst.Prof. South Asian Studies Programme National University of Singapore 10, Kent Ridge Crescent Singapore119260 Phone: (++65) 874 8474 email: sasun at nus.edu.sg From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Tue Nov 30 15:33:41 1999 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 16:33:41 +0100 Subject: SV: Age of the Veda ... Message-ID: <161227054082.23782.2180117204489858443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Fosse et al., Several Indian authors claim the following reference for Max M?ller's belief in Biblical chronology: "I look upon the account of creation given in Genesis as simply historical." -- letter to the Duke of Argyll, 1875, included in Max M?ller: Life and Letters, vol.1, 1902, p.481-482. Probably some of you have this volume handy so that they can verify it. If it proves incorrect, Max M?ller was quite a progressive, for this belief was then still quite common among Christian clergymen. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 30 16:32:05 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 17:32:05 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Age of the Veda ... Message-ID: <161227054089.23782.8126980686486422636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Koenraad Elst [SMTP:koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE] skrev 30. november 1999 16:34: > Dr. Fosse et al., > > Several Indian authors claim the following reference for Max M?ller's belief > in Biblical chronology: > > "I look upon the account of creation given in Genesis as simply > historical." -- letter to the Duke of Argyll, 1875, included in Max M?ller: > Life and Letters, vol.1, 1902, p.481-482. > > Probably some of you have this volume handy so that they can verify it. If > it proves incorrect, Max M?ller was quite a progressive, for this belief was > then still quite common among Christian clergymen. Thanks for the quote! The quotation as it stands is a bit unclear: Should the account as such be understood as a historical creation rather than divine, or is the creation depicted in it to be regarded as historical? However: It would seem that the Biblical account of creation as a scientific explanation "broke down" about 1850 due to Darwinian theory etc. It is understandable, on the other hand, that clergymen were conservative, and that they protested strongly against it to begin with. The clergy tends to lag behind when new ideas are introduced, particularly if those ideas seem to threaten their own belief system. It would have been interesting to know more about how Mueller's own beliefs developed. Any Muellervadins out there? Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR Tue Nov 30 16:58:55 1999 From: Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR (Gerard Huet) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 17:58:55 +0100 Subject: Hypertext Sanskrit Dictionary released Message-ID: <161227054086.23782.9281584186913863821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste. I released today the current version of my sanskrit-french dictionary. It is available in ps and pdf formats, as previously, but this time there is also an experimental HTML version, fully indexed for easy browsing. Everything is downloadable from my indology web page, at URL http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/indo.html where you can find instructions. Enjoy! Comments and corrections appreciated, as usual Gerard From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Nov 30 19:50:07 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 20:50:07 +0100 Subject: SV: Age of the Veda ... Message-ID: <161227054095.23782.13840623617871465693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk [SMTP:jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU] skrev 30. november 1999 18:57: I think it is incautious and > potentially misleading to toss around dates like 4500 BCE , as Fosse > has done, although he is rather careful to state that he does not > claim this as a date for all or even part of RV. Not all his readers > may be so careful. Apparently, there is a need for precision here: I did not say that the Rig as we know goes back to the year 4.500 BCE. I said that some of its material may be as old (typical example: the purusha hymn as compared to Germanic material, see Bruce Lincoln on the subject in "Myth, Cosmos, and Society".) This is logical unless we assume that myths have wandered from India to Northern Europe. Or, axiomatically: Mythical material that cannot be regarded as a loan MUST be inherited "genetically" and consequently go back to the period when the Indo-Europeans were together - wherever and whenever that was. The point of break-up is often said to be about 4,500 BCE. It is a rough figure, and I am not dogmatic about it. As for the Rig as we know it: I am quite comfortable with Witzel's dating, and I have no problems whatsoever regarding parts of the RV as younger than 1200. In fact, if we compare the Atharvic versions of certain hymns in the RV, the RV versions may be younger than the Atharvic. The "deeper" point here is, of course, that if you pick out certain hymns of the RV and claim that they show a greater age than the conventional one, you may be right in terms of content, but not ipso facto in terms of language and metrics. In other words: No one has really managed to "kill" Max Mueller's date. Whatever his reasons, his instinct was good. Hope this clarifies my position. I'll be away from my email for the next week. If someone react to this, s/he will not get any answers right away. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse In fact, I am quite comfortable with Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Nov 30 21:32:57 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 22:32:57 +0100 Subject: Age of the Veda ... In-Reply-To: <19991130125237.69873.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227054104.23782.1089549505829762778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here we go again... There must be multiple records of this sort of discussion in the Indology archives. But since J. Silk says, "Although he will no doubt jump in himself to clarify this, Michael Witzel..." I suppose I have to: About the only thing we can say about the date of the RV , based on the RV itself, is that * it is a pre-iron age (copper/bronze) age text of the Greater Panjab (incl. parts of Afghanistan). This sets a date ante quem of c. 1200, the earliest iron in India. (iron is, not surprisingly, found in an old section of the linguistically slightly later text, the Atharvaveda, both SS and PS) * a date ad quem is the linguistically and mythologically closely related Mitanni Indo-Aryan in Syria/Iraq of c. 1380 BCE with the names of the major gods: Mitra, VaruNa, Indra and Naasatya (Azvin) and slightly *earlier*, pre-RV forms such as -azd(h)- for Vedic -ed(h)-, e.g. Mitanni: Priyamazda :: Ved. Priyamedha. e is found in the oldest sections of RV , and not just in expected locations (*sazd > sed-) but already in analogical forms (yem-). Note the slight difference in dialect/linguistic development between Mitanni and Panjab Old Indo-Aryan.> * a date post quem is more difficult. Nowadays we usually invoke the absence of Indus civ. cities in the RV and thus put it after c. 1900 BCE, the date of the demise of the Indus civ. As Dr Ganesan said, horses are indeed not found in South Asia before 1700 BCE, all other reported finds are fom UNSTRATIFIED or BADLY recorded excavations: such bones belong to the native half-ass (khor, hemiod, onager) which is very similar to a horse (see R.Meadow's various papers). (NB: all other claims, such as 'astronomical data', do not apply. -- Long story) Chariots of Indo_Aryan type first occur around 2000 BCE west and east of the Ural mountains. This points to a group of people using the horse drawn chariot, using an Indo-Iranian (and Indo-European)-derived language and IE/IIr-derived complicated poetry all of which were introduced into the Greater Panjab after the demise of the Indus civ., which has neither chariots nor horses nor IE type language, religion, rituals etc. A possible date post quem thus is 1900 BCE, probably closer to 1700 BCE (horses in the Kachi Plain of the Baluchi/Sindh border). * In addition, the trail of the speakers of Indo-Iranian increasingly becomes clearer: there is a strong Central Asian substrate (of Bactria-Margiana), both in the RV and in the Avesta/Old Persian (Witzel in EJVS 1999, Lubotsky, forthc.) This substrate most likely comes from the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Comlex (BMAC, (alibrated radiocarbon dates 1950-1700 BCE) and nearby areas. -- Which again points to c. 1700 (and later) for the Indo-Aryans of the RV. ----------------------- This is about as much as we can say today. Max Mueller has nothing to do with the sketch given above (he simply guessed well -- for his time!), nor inertia. On the contrary, with new evidence, the picture is fine-tuned year by year. Sorry for all Mueller- and Orientalist Indologist-bashers. At 4:52 -0800 11/30/99, N. Ganesan wrote: >I understand that the RV's time range .... >Perhaps many Sanskrit texts are liberally assigned older dates. Of course. -- Ditto, for some Tamil texts. >I would like to know whether important inscriptions >in Sanskrit exist prior to Rudradaman in 2nd cent. AD? (Iravatham >Mahadevan said, "No"). Hardly, but there are some in Mathura which are a hundred or so years earlier. See now S. Rhie Quintanilla, Harvard PhD 1999 (on Mathura sculptures, with inscr. included) . Plus the language of Patanjali's MahAbhASya, usually assigned to 150 BCE., probably from the same area. MW. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm