From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 1 00:08:45 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 99 17:08:45 -0700 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048404.23782.7337524557906862052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > It is also the case that Sinhalese had legitimate grievances as >regards the Tamils in the late colonial period, such as the >import of >large numbers of foreign workers and the privileging of the more >highly educated Tamils in government service. As so >often happens, this >led to excesses in the opposite direction after >independence. I've a Sri Lankan Tamil friend. He's a Christian. His views on the subject are pretty interesting. The main reason for the conflict in Sri Lanka, as per him, are actually on religious lines - Buddhist Vs Hindu. He says the Sinhalese lose no opportunity in propogating Buddhism in Tamil areas - like building Buddhist temples in Hindu areas and offering more incentives for Buddhists etc, which ofcourse didn't go well with the Tamil Hindus, who're Saivites (their attachment to their faith need not be elaborated). Plus it is said that statues of the Buddha would miraculously appear in some Hindu area and be converted to a temple by the Sinhalese. He also points out that it is the industry displayed by the Tamils which turned the Sinhalese against them. At one point in time, he says the Tamils held all the key positions in the Government and in the discrimination by the Sinhalese which followed, Tamils were banned from learning English and going to college etc But there seems to be more in the Tamil imbroglio itself, than meets the eye. It's said that Tamil population out there are of two kinds : 1. One which came in even before the Brits did and 2. Which were brought in by the Brits as cheap labour (I don't think the Sinhalese had any problem with more Tamils coming in and didn't view them as competition). The ones who came before claim to be of higher castes and look down upon the later arrivals. When the sectarian trouble erupted, it was the later arrivals who first got hit since they worked in predominantly Sinhalese areas and didn't receive much help from the higher castes. It's said that it was Prabhakaran who's supposed to come from a fishing community, the LTTE supremo, who actually united both. But the EPRLF formed by the Dalit Tamils in Srilanka - called contemptuously by higher caste Tamils as EElathu Paraiyargal (Srilanka's Untouchables) - tried to work out a seperate deal with both the Govts of Srilanka and India. For which the whole leadership was assasinated by the LTTE. Plus the Muslim Tamils in Srilanka seem to have had different ideas. They decided to stay nuetral, for which they seem to have earned the wrath of the LTTE. It seems to me that the primary causes may have been : 1. Historical hostility between Srilankan Buddhists and Tamil Hindus (Tamil Kings are have invaded Lanka and caused havoc many a time). 2. Political power struggle between higher caste Tamils and Sinhalese for which the poor lower caste Tamils were dragged in for no fault of their own (which is exactly what happened in Tamil Nadu in the guise of the Dravidian movement). _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 1 12:24:00 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 01 May 99 05:24:00 -0700 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048408.23782.15864166758577564905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It's said that Tamil population out there are of two kinds : 1. One >which came in even before the Brits did and 2. Which were brought in >by the Brits as cheap labour Across the Palk Straits, the distance is a mere 18 miles. Greek geographers call Ceylon as Tambapanni. Tamraparni is in South Tamil Nadu. No distinction between India and Ceylon except the recent centuries. Some earliest South East Asian inscriptions bear a Tamil stamp, Sri Mara (cf. J. Filliozat). Tamils were in Sri Lanka as long as they lived in India. There, there are earliest Tamil Brahmi inscriptions with distinct marks for Tamil names, the 'n2' endings, the letter 'zha' and so on and proto-sinhala inscriptions mention the presence of Tamils. A portion of the sangam poetry were penned by Tamils from Lanka. Eg., Izhattup Puutam TEvanAr. Among the Tevaram corpus available to us (many were lost in the last 1300 years), two decads are available on Kediicaram and TirukONamalai. It is a tragic loss that Tamil religions, both Saivism and Vaishnavism, destroyed many, many Buddhist works. Luckily, Manimekalai and few poems in Veerachoziyam survived. Kovai ciRRilakkiyam-s routinely talk of going to Lanka. Izham means gold, toddy. Tamil literature exists from 11th century onwards in Sri Lanka. >The ones who came before claim to be of higher castes and look down upon >the later arrivals. When the sectarian trouble erupted, it was the later >arrivals who first got hit since they worked in predominantly Sinhalese >areas and didn't receive much help from the higher castes. Even amidst the original inhabitants of Sri Lanka, the Jaffna and Trincomalee Tamils, untouchable castes exist - nalavat, paLLar, paRaiyar, .. Regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 1 12:41:54 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 01 May 99 05:41:54 -0700 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048411.23782.2845017400524227722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ))) It seems to me that the primary causes may have been : 1. Historical hostility between Srilankan Buddhists and Tamil Hindus (Tamil Kings are have invaded Lanka and caused havoc many a time). 2. Political power struggle between higher caste Tamils and Sinhalese for which the poor lower caste Tamils were dragged in for no fault of their own (which is exactly what happened in Tamil Nadu in the guise of the Dravidian movement). ((( In addition, the outdated 'Aryan' supremacy idea of the 19th century. This 'racist' idea empowers the Sri Lankan state whose majority speak an "Aryan" language and outwardly profess "peaceful" religion to perform 'ethnic cleansing'. Many monks and politicians and academics have aroused the Sinhala feelings that Dravidians are Non-Aryan and Non-Buddhist. Misinterpretations of Aryan and Buddhism abound. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jpstephen at HOME.COM Sat May 1 12:38:42 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Sat, 01 May 99 08:38:42 -0400 Subject: Silapadhikaram Message-ID: <161227048410.23782.17704154047357835640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> During which century was Silapadhikaram written? If Silapadhikaram was penned by Ilango Adigal, a Chera prince, then was Tamil the language of the Chera kingdom at that time? When exactly did Malayalam show up on the scene? Thanks for your responses. Sujatha From klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Sat May 1 13:14:53 1999 From: klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Bo Klintberg) Date: Sat, 01 May 99 09:14:53 -0400 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L. Possehl. In-Reply-To: <372ACCDA.55E4CD2F@online.no> Message-ID: <161227048413.23782.8938079247863348084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 1 May 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > For the record, a many Indo-European cultures have no record of their migration > into their historical territories. Such records are lacking for Greece, Italy, > Anatolia, and also for the Scandinavian countries. Not all ancient peoples were > equally concerned with their geographical origins. Therefore, the non-mention of > such migrations in the Vedas is not so important as some assume it to be. I think there are some serious philosophical problems with your conclusion. If I understand you correctly you seem to say something like the following: The Indo-Europeans migrated. We have not found any of their records where they say they migrated. Since we haven't found any such records, they did not write such records. And since they did not produce such records, it must be because they did not consider it important. And since THEY did not consider it important, WE should not also consider it important. My questions are as follows: Is it PROVEN that the Indo-Europeans migrated? Does the fact that we DON'T have unearthed any records necessarily imply that they didn't write any? And even if they didn't write any records, how can you KNOW that the reason was that they didn't consider it important? Let's assume that the reason for why we haven't found any records about migration is, as you seem to say, that they did not write any records. Then, philosophically speaking, it would not be impossible that such a behaviour would be the result of a situation in which there WAS no migration; thus, why should they write any records of migration, if there was no migration? Bo Klintberg Institute for the History and Philosophy of Science and Technology University of Toronto, Canada Your fist assumption is that they did not write any. How do you know that? Your second assumption is that the reason for their not writing any is because they did not find it important have no record of their migrations. The did not write any records. We haven't found any records. Assume that there was no migration at all. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat May 1 09:43:55 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 01 May 99 11:43:55 +0200 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L. Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048406.23782.13587620691243085973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal in his review of Possehl's book on the Indus writing system wrote: > have amply demonstrated that the > Vedic texts do not allude to any foreign invasion of Aryans. For the record, a many Indo-European cultures have no record of their migration into their historical territories. Such records are lacking for Greece, Italy, Anatolia, and also for the Scandinavian countries. Not all ancient peoples were equally concerned with their geographical origins. Therefore, the non-mention of such migrations in the Vedas is not so important as some assume it to be. Lars Martin Fosse From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 1 19:34:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 01 May 99 12:34:19 -0700 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048417.23782.2031333065972416101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Vishal Agarwal, Greetings. I am overstepping Prof. Y. Vassilkov's nice advice that 'Aryan invasion' is a 'taboo' in this list; Don't know how long you have been writing in INDOLOGY. Please search Aryan, Horse, Indus valley in the archives, you will almost be overwhelmed by the number of posts from reputed Indologists on this emotional issue. N. S. Rajaram critiques that Possehl does not mention cyber space articles by Frawley, Rajaram, school. One time, the list founder Dr. Wujastyk forwarded a message from Rajaram. May be he can become a member of Indology and his discuss his important findings with the expert Indologists here in cyber space. Probably then, he can advance the field of INDOLOGY close to what he claims: analogous to the leap from Newtonian mechanics to Quantum mechanics era. Prof. George Thompson, a trained Vedicist knowing Vedic quite well, wrote here that Rig Veda's date is about 1000 B.C. The classical phase of Indus culture was around 2500 B.C., I am not so sure that Jha or anyone else can read Indus seals using Vedic glossary. The problem is about ONE millennium gap in time. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat May 1 14:05:34 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 01 May 99 16:05:34 +0200 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048415.23782.13084330812165774505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Bo Klintberg wrote: > I think there are some serious philosophical problems with your > conclusion. If I understand you correctly you seem to say something like > the following: > > The Indo-Europeans migrated. We have not found any of their records > where they say they migrated. Since we haven't found any such records, > they did not write such records. And since they did not produce > such records, it must be because they did not consider it important. And > since THEY did not consider it important, WE should not > also consider it important. This is not what I am saying but your interpretation of what I am saying. What I am saying is this: 1. Indo-Europeans migrated. Such migrations are historically recorded since the first millenium BCE. I see no reasons why they shouldn't have migrated before that. It is the only reasonable explanation for the extensive spread of Indo-European languages, and probably also for some archaeological data as well. 2. The earliest migrations were by people without a writing system. Which means that they had an oral history. Which means that "history" very quickly got absorbed by myth (see e.g. Eliade, Myth of the Eternal Return, or Cosmos and History".). However, we sometimes see a need for a "history" (as in Rome, where Virgil produced an epic on the basis of imaginary history). In such cases, origins were regarded as important and "histories" were produced. 3. What you choose to regard as important is a matter of personal taste. My point was simply that the non-mention of migrations in the Veda doesn't prove anything. It is an argument ex nihilo. > My questions are as follows: Is it PROVEN that the Indo-Europeans > migrated? I would say that the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. For a recent account, you may try Bernard Sergent's book on Les Indo-Europeens. > Does the fact that we DON'T have unearthed any records > necessarily imply that they didn't write any? Not necessarily. But in the case of Greece and Rome, we have enormous literatures without a hint of what happened in prehistory. This is not surprising if you have read Eliade's book. Before writing, oral history prevails, and oral history tends to be concerned with other things than "historical events" in the modern sense of the word. > And even if they didn't > write any records, how can you KNOW that the reason was that they didn't > consider it important? I don't know, it is an inference. The Romans produced a myth of origins when it became politically important. But I'll agree that the inference has a weak link. My point is rather: if it had been important to them, they would probably not have given us an historical account in the modern sense of the word, but they would have given us an mythical or half-mythical account of a place of origin. The Iranians did - in the shape of airyanam vaejo. The Indians did not. > Let's assume that the reason for why we haven't found any records about > migration is, as you seem to say, that they did not write any records. > Then, philosophically speaking, it would not be impossible that such a > behaviour would be the result of a situation in which there WAS no > migration; thus, why should they write any records of migration, if there > was no migration? This is too abstract. We know quite a lot about Indo-Europeans in various shapes and of their languages and cultures. We know that they migrated, beyond reasonable doubt. Before you philosophise, check to see if there is evidence to indicate that they migrated. But of course: if you don't migrate, you don't have a memory of a migration. My point, however, was: if you don't have a memory of a migration, there are at least two explanations. Consequently, the fact that a migration is not mentioned in the ancient Indic literature has little argumentative value. I hope this inference is philosophically acceptable. Lars Martin Fosse From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sat May 1 23:32:34 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sat, 01 May 99 16:32:34 -0700 Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? Message-ID: <161227048419.23782.1160995491236854977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote: > At 11:12 17/04/99 EDT, Palaniappa at AOL.COM wrote : > > One has to add to that very suggestive (but probably not conclusive) > discussion the following facts: > > A1. the word nAL is frequent inside the 33000 lines > that constitute the Classical Tamil corpus: > it occurs almost 400 times; in its most frequent use, > it does not refer to day-time (as opposed to night-time) > but refers to a unit of time that is contained inside a longer period > (like a month, a life-time, etc.); that unit is somehow > a 24 hours period; [see for instance: oru nAL "one day", It seems there is prima facie evidence that nAL might have meant 1. A unit of measure of time (for a 24 hour duration) 2. lunar asterism in the sense of saying "today is rEvati". The Tamil Lexicon gives, for nAL," Lunar day - titi". And adds that this is a western usage. Gundert's Malayalam lexicon gives for nAL, "a day of 24 hours. The astrological day and the nakshatram that governs it". Interestingly, the word kaGkul seems to show similar properties. The Tamil Lexicon gives the following: "1. Night 2. The second naksatra. See paraNinAL". And adds that this is a western usage. The tiruvAymozi has a usage kaGkulvAy: kAppAr Ar ivviDattu? kaGkiruLin nuNtuLiyAyc cETpAla tUziyAyc celkinRa kaGkulvAyt tUppAla veNcaGku cakkarattan tOnRAnAl tIppAla valvinaiyEn teivaGkAL! enceykEnO? (TiruvAymozi 5.4.7) We are told by the commentator to the IDu (36000 paDi) that kaGkulvAy should be taken to mean not night but a day and night. "tamizarkku akattiyaraip pOnRu iruppAn tamizAciriyan oruvan, celkinRa kaGkulvAy enpataRkuc celkinRa nALakattu enRu urai ezuti vaittAn". (ITTin tamizAkkam, B R Purushottama Naidu, Vol V, p. 185). Usually Naidu attempts to identify the nikaNTu and Classical Tamil references in the IDu but this one presumably is not an extant commentary. Warm Regards. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From shankars at SPRINT.CA Sun May 2 02:00:04 1999 From: shankars at SPRINT.CA (Sanjeev Shankar) Date: Sat, 01 May 99 22:00:04 -0400 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. In-Reply-To: <19990501193420.93035.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048421.23782.4941608324095165239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganeshan, Please do provide concrete evidence for Mr Thompson's dating of the Rg Veda. A simple 'he says so' is inadmissible. And Jha's reading of the Indus seals is hardly contingent on your say so. If you can scholastically disprove Jha please do so else kindly restrain yourself from making statements such as "I am not so sure that Jha or anyone else can read Indus seals using Vedic glossary." Regards Sanjeev Shanka > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of N. > Ganesan > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 1999 3:34 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory > L.Possehl. > > > Dear Vishal Agarwal, > > Greetings. > > I am overstepping Prof. Y. Vassilkov's nice advice that 'Aryan > invasion' is a 'taboo' in this list; Don't know how long you have been > writing in INDOLOGY. Please search Aryan, Horse, Indus valley in the > archives, you will almost be overwhelmed by the number of posts from > reputed Indologists on this emotional issue. > > N. S. Rajaram critiques that Possehl does not mention cyber space > articles by Frawley, Rajaram, school. One time, the list founder > Dr. Wujastyk forwarded a message from Rajaram. May be he can > become a member of Indology and his discuss his important findings > with the expert Indologists here in cyber space. > Probably then, he can advance the field of > INDOLOGY close to what he claims: analogous to the leap > from Newtonian mechanics to Quantum mechanics era. > > Prof. George Thompson, a trained Vedicist knowing Vedic quite well, > wrote here that Rig Veda's date is about 1000 B.C. > The classical phase of Indus culture was around 2500 B.C., > I am not so sure that Jha or anyone else can read Indus > seals using Vedic glossary. The problem is about ONE > millennium gap in time. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun May 2 05:21:28 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 01:21:28 -0400 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048423.23782.272253396092113913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 4/19/99 7:06:58 PM Central Daylight Time, mrabe at ARTIC.EDU writes: > Defending V. Venkayya and E. Hultzsch & in response to > Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan Their positions are not really defensible as far as Madurai is concerned. For reasons, please see "India in Kalidasa" (1947) by B. S. Upadhyaya who explicitly equates "uragapura" and "AlavAy" with Madurai. (I thank L. Srinivas for the reference.) In any case, I shall independently argue the case below. > These pioneering epigraphist took at face value, as do I, the Gadval plates > assertion that in c. 674 A.D. the Chalukya king Vikramaditya I first > sacked Kancipuram and then continued southwards as far as Uragapura on the > Kaveri. This is justified. It is pAmpUr/tirunAkEcuram near kumpakONam. >It seems perfectly reasonable, moreover to equate THAT Uragapura > with the one Kalidas mentioned a couple centuries earlier, [but as a city > of Pandyas]. This is not just justified. Anyone familiar with the Tamil heritage and Pandyas will know that Pandyas are going to be praised as possessing historical Madurai or koRkai or legendary kapATapuram and not some other obscure place named after a snake. (The context in Raghuvamsa is the svayamvara of a princess where the Pandyan king is praised as the nAtha of the pura called uraga.) It looks as if one cannot expect the knowledge of Tamil traditions to increase as a monotonically increasing function over time. The great Kalidasa is right when he calls the Pandyan king as the leader of the city called "uraga". He does not call the city "uragapura". It is the much later commentator Mallinatha who calls it nAgapura and locates it away from Madurai. Kalidasa never associates Kaveri or any of its distributaries with "uraga". (G. S. Ghurye also rightly calls the Pandyan city by the name "uraga".) If one were to take the Gadval plates at face value, we have the city's name as "uragapura". We also have to take at face value the fact that Kalidasa calls the Pandyan city as "uraga". Then the hypothesis to disprove is that they are different places. One cannot assume that a generic noun like pura is always superfluous. Consider the pairs kaTaiyam/kaTaiyanallUr or kOzi/kOzikkOTu. We have four different towns here. > But it is unwarranted, I believe, to ascribe a > snake-related name to Madurai on the basis of the Kalidas reference Of course, it is warranted on the basis of Tamil traditions described in nampi's (13th century) and paraJcOti's (16th century) texts. Harman writes, "The term AlavAy (Skt. hAlAsya) means "the poison-mouthed one", or more simply, "snake". Madurai is frequently called either AlavAy or tiruvAlavAy, particularly in Tamil literature...The 49th game (and the first in this volume) presents the etymological and etiological account of how the city came to be known as the "Sacred Snake."" Interestingly, in nampi's tiruviLaiyATal, the snake is referred to as "urakanAtan2" (Skt. uraganAtha) and in paraJcOti's tiruviLaiyATal, the snake is referred to as "urakam" (Skt. uraga). It is interesting that Nampi uses the Tamil equivalents of the words, "uraga" and "nAtha", which are used by Kalidasa also. Both uraga and uragapura are Sanskritizations of the names of different places by different persons at different times. Mallinatha, Venkayya and Hultzch have really messed up their identities. In the process, what Kalidasa's use of uraga tells us about the history of religion in Tamilakam, Sanskritization, and interaction among the Sanskrit and Tamil worlds of the 5th century AD has not been properly understood. Regards S. Palaniappan From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 2 12:32:05 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 05:32:05 -0700 Subject: Dr. E. Bryant's paper Message-ID: <161227048425.23782.17581779497431039913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read the list manager's message dated 5 Jan 99. Is Ed Bryant's paper now available in the INDOLOGY website? --------------------------------------------------------------------- > I wonder if Dr. Fosse, or anyone else well-acquainted with this >subject, would summarize.. This is a very good idea, and I am hoping to post a paper by Ed Bryant on the INDOLOGY web site in the not too distant future which will fulfil this purpose. In the meantime, I'm afraid it is a matter of picking through the archives. I have not seen anything new on this topic posted to the list for a long time; just a great deal of emotion. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Sun May 2 05:44:45 1999 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 06:44:45 +0100 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048446.23782.7474147606480747259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran writes: >The main reason for the conflict in Sri Lanka, as per him, are actually on >religious lines - Buddhist Vs Hindu. > >He says the Sinhalese lose no opportunity in propogating Buddhism in Tamil >areas - like building Buddhist temples in Hindu areas and offering more >incentives for Buddhists etc, which ofcourse didn't go well with the Tamil >Hindus, who're Saivites (their attachment to their faith need not be >elaborated). Plus it is said that statues of the Buddha would miraculously >appear in some Hindu area and be converted to a temple by the Sinhalese. The problem with this is that it reifies the difference between Hinduism and Buddhism on lines more appropriate to European religion. Actually 'Hindu' temples are all over. I suspect that there is (or was) no particular problem with either this or Buddhist monasteries. There is a lot of objection to the use of American fundamentalist money to build churches and schools etc. and 'purchase conversion'. >He also points out that it is the industry displayed by the Tamils which >turned the Sinhalese against them. At one point in time, he says the Tamils >held all the key positions in the Government and in the discrimination by >the Sinhalese which followed, Tamils were banned from learning English and >going to college etc Again, the problem was that Sinhalese wanted to see their own language brought back to use in their own land. This was a very natural and legitimate objective, but it brought very serious problems for the Tamils. I think the first thing that is needed in such a case is to recognize that the problems are real and difficult. If you sweep aside the difficulties, you will end up looking for scapegoats. >It seems to me that the primary causes may have been : 1. Historical >hostility between Srilankan Buddhists and Tamil Hindus (Tamil Kings are have >invaded Lanka and caused havoc many a time). Again, I think this reification of the difference is a gross oversimplification. I suspect that most Tamil rulers in ancient Ceylon (i.e. before about 1,000 A.D.) and many since would have supported both Buddhist and Shaiva, etc. activities. Most Sinhalese kings certainly offered worship to the gods. Anyone who has spent time on the ground in the island will know that there are all sorts of religious activities in which both Sinhalese and Tamils participate together. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 2 14:14:32 1999 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 07:14:32 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048427.23782.13586243119710850474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N.S.Rajaram's review of Indus Age: The Writing System by Gregory Possehl's book by Dr Rajaram (made available to this list by Vishal Agarwal) calls for "a new school of thought" in the field of Indology. This appeal reminds me of the suggestion formally made by Arvind Sharma of McGill University, Montreal at the conference on Dharma and History held in Shimla in July 1997 that western scholarship on Indology be known as "Gentoo Studies" in order to distinguish it from contributions made by Indians themselves using Indic paradigms of knowledge and scholarship. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Sun May 2 06:30:47 1999 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 07:30:47 +0100 Subject: original inhabitants of Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048448.23782.10243561025746470879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is perhaps more appropriate as a topic for Indology; so I have given it a new name before our esteemed moderator intervenes in a discussion that threatens to overstep the limits :-) Venkatraman Iyer writes: >Across the Palk Straits, the distance is a mere 18 miles. Greek >geographers call Ceylon as Tambapanni. Tamraparni is in South >Tamil Nadu. No distinction between India and Ceylon except the >recent centuries. Some earliest South East Asian inscriptions bear >a Tamil stamp, Sri Mara (cf. J. Filliozat). Tamils were in Sri Lanka >as long as they lived in India. I think this is an interesting question and much more difficult than you imply in this brief statement. >There, there are earliest Tamil >Brahmi inscriptions with distinct marks for Tamil names, the 'n2' >endings, the letter 'zha' and so on and proto-sinhala inscriptions >mention the presence of Tamils. Taking the earliest period first i.e. before El.aara ruled in all or part of the island. It seems to me that we don't know if Tamil speakers lived on the island before this time or not. When speakers of a language from North India came to the island and established themselves there (in whatever way - there are several possibilities), we simply don't know who was there before. Similarly, if it is the case (it is far from certain) that Dravidian speakers too originally came from the north, then we don't know: 1. what languages were spoken either in the Tamil country or on the island; 2. whether or not Dravidian speakers occupied the island. But there is something we can, I think, be quite certain of. It is best explained by a simple thought experiment: Supposing we could assemble all the ancestors of the 'Sinhalese' and all the ancestors of the 'Tamils' (from say the seventh century B.C.) and divide them into three groups - those who are ancestors of 'Tamils', those who are ancestors of 'Sinhalese' and those who are ancestors of both. Then we would find that 90% would fall into the third grouping. In other words they are essentially genetically identical groups. Why do I say this. For many reasons. Some examples: 1. the vast majority would be descendants of the autochthonous inhabitants i.e. those from before arrival (from wherever) of various waves of newcomers (there were doubtless many before either Dravidians or Prakrit speakers). 2. there was constant interchange between the two areas e.g. many of the queens in the royal establishments of both areas were wives exchanged between kings on the island and those in the Tamil country. and so on After the time of E.laara and probably before there were almost certainly trading families established on the island (and probably vice versa on the mainland). From that time on there were certainly always Tamils living on the island, although we have no idea as to their numbers. It is unclear whether or not they occupied any particular areas. Later. Tamil mercenaries also became common and important on the island. After the ninth century and onwards, South Indian kings were often successful in establishing themselves in the north of the island; the numbers of Tamil speakers must have increased considerably. The natural assumption is that it is only at this time that Tamil speakers became the majority in certain northern areas, but it is far from certain. >A portion of the sangam poetry were penned by Tamils from Lanka. >Eg., Izhattup Puutam TEvanAr. Among the Tevaram corpus available >to us (many were lost in the last 1300 years), two decads are available on >Kediicaram and TirukONamalai. It is a tragic loss >that Tamil religions, both Saivism and Vaishnavism, destroyed >many, many Buddhist works. Luckily, Manimekalai and few poems >in Veerachoziyam survived. Kovai ciRRilakkiyam-s routinely talk >of going to Lanka. Izham means gold, toddy. Tamil literature >exists from 11th century onwards in Sri Lanka. I am very sceptical as to the theory that 'Tamil religions' destroyed Buddhist works. I suspect it is the Portuguese we should blame for that. That, and the loss of patronage through the partial destruction of native kingship in the south by Muslim invaders. Palmleaf manuscripts need relativel;y frequent recopying. Also, I suspect that much of the work of Tamil Buddhists was written in Sanskrit, at least in later times. Theravaadin Sanskrit works were probably produced more often in the Tamil country than in Ceylon. Some of this survives, either directly or in renderings into Pali. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 2 14:56:42 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 07:56:42 -0700 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048428.23782.9125639630211068001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: "N. Ganesan" Dear Sri Ganesan Greetings. I am overstepping Prof. Y. Vassilkov's nice advice that 'Aryan invasion' is a 'taboo' in this list; Don't know how long you have been writing in INDOLOGY. I am not an expert on this issue and have not written anything on this issue. There should be no need for anyone to feel emotional bout the issue. Even those who claim that the anscestors of Indians came from outside 30 centuries back should ponder over the fact that there are not many countries in the world that can claim such a long continuity in ethnic identity. And, in any case, modern anthropological studies have demonstrated that Indians share almost 80% of all genetic traits, showing that even if different groups entered into India at different times, they have intermarried so much at different times that they have ceased to be different racial groups. Prof. George Thompson, a trained Vedicist knowing Vedic quite well, wrote here that Rig Veda's date is about 1000 B.C. The classical phase of Indus culture was around 2500 B.C., I am not so sure that Jha or anyone else can read Indus seals using Vedic glossary. The problem is about ONE millennium gap in time. So be it. But then the traditional Pundits of India are no less trained Vedicists. I have come across Rigvedins who will, from memory, point out most of the Richas with the word 'Shambhar', Arya etc. if requested to do so. There competence in the intepretation of Vedic Sanskrit can be second to none. We must realize one thing-- many scholarly works in the field of Indology are published outside India not because there are more scholars there than in India, but because there are more resources and facilities available in the west for publishing one's work. As an Engineer myself who has lived in India as well as abroad, I can attest to this perhaps more strongly than many. Regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 2 15:21:40 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 08:21:40 -0700 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048430.23782.1073699077431933391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri Sunderesan, Thank you for correcting me. I do feel however that the mere acceptance of 36 tattvas in Suresvara's Varttika (and the orignal verse of the Stotra) and use of some terms peculiar to the Pratyanhijna Darshana should not be grounds enough for rejecting the authenticity of these works. After all, Hindu tradition is quite unanimous in saying that Sri Samkaracarya is 'shanmata acharya'. The dual nature of Hinduism must be kept in mind before we pass such judge- ments. Many modern Hindus also (including myself) are Vedicists and yet use Pauranic and Tantric rituals for our daily devotions. Another classical example is that of the Sri Sampradaya or the Ubahaya Vedanta, on which I created a website recently. The following points should also be considered: 1. According to tradition, going back to the times of atleast Vidyaranya, Sri Gaudapadacarya wrote the Sri Vidya sutras which is clearly a Shakta text. There is nothing abnormal in this belief considering that Gaudapada hailed from Northern Bengal- a region, like Kashmir, was a meeting place of Tantricism, Buddhism, Saivism etc. Tradition also ascribes the authorship of a Tantric text called the 'Yogataravali' (recently sung by Madonna) to Govindapada- who was the direct teacher of Sri Samkaracarya. In addition, he is also said to have composed the text 'Rasahrdaya' and is said by tradition, to have lived a long life by the use of drugs. 2. Another such pair of texts is the Prapancasara tantra ascribed to Sri Samkaracarya and the commentary thereto by Sri Padmapadacarya. The latter has quotations from long lost Samkhya works of Pancadhikarana and the former is the basis of a section of a text called the 'Prapancahrdaya' which itself is said to be pre-Ramanuja. My point is that it is inappropriate to closet these teachers to categories like 'Advaita Vedantins' etc, and them declare as spurious all the other works on other schools of philosophies ascribed to them traditionally, unless there are alternate reasons to do so. For instance, we can definitely state that the traditional commentary on Nrsimhatapaniya Upanisad by Sri Samkaracarya is spurious because it quotes from many late texts. Or that the 'Vijnanadipika' attributed to Padmapadcarya is spurious because it refutes the views of Bhatta Bhaskara (of course this could again be an invalid reason if it is demonstrated Bhaskara was a contemporary of Sri Samkaracarya-- in the Narottama Puri Tippana on Samkara's Chhandogya Bhasya, Bhaskara is reported as having stated in his Chhandogya Bhasya that Sri Samkara stole from his work!!!) It is common knowledge that the Prastaspada Bhasya, the Slokavarttika etc. start with invocations to Lord Shiva etc. And the available information on Bhartrprapanca also suggests that he was a Shaivite. Similarly, in his Nitidivisastika, Sundara Pandya (another Pre-Samkara Vedantin) clearly alludes to Pauranic themes like the 1000 armed Arjuna, or the cresecnt on the forehead of Lord Shiva and so on. And likewise, the writings of Alvars (who were not removed much in time from Sri Samkara, brim with themes found in the Vaishnava Puranas and also suggest a Samskritic base). Regards. Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan Vishal Agarwal wrote: >Dear Sri Sundaresan, > >Appropos your excellent post, I just want to make a small comment--you have doubted the authenticity of 'Pancikarana' of Adi Samkaracarya. In my opinion, the doubts are unfounded since this text even has a Varttika attributed to Suresvaracarya on it. (In addition to traditional commentaries by Anandajnana et al). This validates the authenticity of the text. > Au contraire, I am questioning the assumptions behind the reasons given to doubt the attribution of pancIkaraNa to Sankara. One major assumption is that the terms tanmAtra, avyakta, mahat and ahaMkAra indicate an exclusively sAMkhyan origin. This argument is independent of the presence or otherwise of commentaries by Suresvara and Anandajnana. As I said in my earlier post, I think it is a hasty conclusion to say that the pancIkaraNa is not by Sankara. As for the commentary by Suresvara, that is apparently not a sufficient reason to accept the attribution. Note the parallel instance with mAnasollAsa, Suresvara's commentary on the dakshiNAmUrti hymn. >Secondly, I direct you to Sri Samkaracarya's commentary on the 18th Chapter of BG (do not recall the exact verse), where he uses Samkhyan concepts to explain a particular verse. The Purvapaksin then raises an objection- "How come you now accept Kapila samkhya considering that you have censured it earlier?" The Acharya responds- "What we have censured earlier is the duality preached by Kapila Samkhya. Else, they are indeed an authority on the science of Gunas." > I don't recall this in the 18th chapter. Do you mean the 13th chapter, where Sankara explicitly starts from the 25 tattvas of sAMkhya in his commentary on verse 5? In any case, there are also similar instances of a "qualified acceptance" of sAMkhya in his Brahmasutra commentary. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 2 15:32:10 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 08:32:10 -0700 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L. Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048432.23782.13918092489329350545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Fosse, My understanding is that Dr. Rajaram does not deny that the anscestors of modern Indians might have come from a region outside the Indian Subcontinent--they only suggest that such a conclusion is not at all warranted by the Vedic texts and any attempts to relate the words of Vedic texts to other findings are questionable. I am not congizant of the oral traditons of Scandinavians but I sure that even if they survive and have been recorded. they will not match the Vedic lore in extent or in antiquity. There are some ancient literatures like those of the Zoroastrainians, which allude to a migration from the east, and not from west, as suggested by many modern Orientalists. In his book "The Aryan Ivasion Theory and Indian Nationaislm", Srikant Talegeri has infact scanned the Puranas and the Vedic Lore to demonstrate that they, at best, allude to a migration from the Gangetic plains to Punjab and westewards thereafter and so on. Supporters of the Aryan Invasion theory might dismiss this entire book by questioning (without any basis) the historicity of the Pauranic accounts, but that is hardly an argument. I had posted the review at the request of Dr. Rajaram as technical difficulties prevented him to do so personally. I am not an expert in this area and can only direct your inquiries (which I cannot answer myself) to him Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Lars Martin Fosse Subject: Re: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L. Possehl. Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 11:43:55 +0200 Vishal Agarwal in his review of Possehl's book on the Indus writing system wrote: > have amply demonstrated that the > Vedic texts do not allude to any foreign invasion of Aryans. For the record, a many Indo-European cultures have no record of their migration into their historical territories. Such records are lacking for Greece, Italy, Anatolia, and also for the Scandinavian countries. Not all ancient peoples were equally concerned with their geographical origins. Therefore, the non-mention of such migrations in the Vedas is not so important as some assume it to be. Lars Martin Fosse _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 2 16:00:45 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 09:00:45 -0700 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by GregoryL.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048438.23782.18439929138717115552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A mistake :-) What I meant was the genetical traits that are specific to ethnicity/ race. Not all the genetic traits. Thanks for the correction. ----Original Message Follows---- From: Lars Martin Fosse Subject: Re: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by GregoryL.Possehl. Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 17:45:52 +0200 Vishal Agarwal wrote: > There should be no need for anyone to feel emotional bout the issue. Even > those who claim that the anscestors of Indians came from outside 30 > centuries back should ponder over the fact that there are not many countries > in the world that can claim such a long continuity in ethnic identity. And, > in any case, modern anthropological studies have demonstrated that Indians > share almost 80% of all genetic traits, showing that even if different groups > entered into India at different times, they have intermarried so much at > different times that they have ceased to be different racial groups. Only 80%? From what I have read, humans and chimps share between 98 and 99 % of their genes. Could you be a bit more specific here, or are we faced with a new scientific sensation? :-) Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 2 17:38:01 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 10:38:01 -0700 Subject: Silapadhikaram Message-ID: <161227048444.23782.12163764481210937012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >During which century was Silapadhikaram written? If Silapadhikaram >was penned by Ilango Adigal, a Chera prince, then was Tamil the >language of the Chera kingdom at that time? When exactly did >Malayalam show up on the scene? Hi Sujatha, Cilambu is around 5th century. Yes, Tamil was the language of Kerala at the time of Cilappatikaram.Please refer to my 28-Feb-99 post under the title, 'CilappatikAram date'. Malayalam literature starts with Raamacaritam and UnnunIlisandesam in 13-14th centuries, when the induction of Sanskrit alphabets and vocablary was accomplished. On Tamil, Kannada, Telugu and Malayalam start dates in that order, see my 11-Feb-98 writing, "Re: Origin of Dravidian Languages". Or, read Zvelebil, The smile of Murugan on Tamil literature of South India. Greetings, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 2 17:51:35 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 10:51:35 -0700 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by GregoryL.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048450.23782.4078693274375621238.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shanka writes: <<>> Unable to oblige your request as I simply wrote my understanding of what I read in Indology. Here is the exact wordings of Prof. Thompson on 18 oct 98: "Second, what is "the Vedic period", and where was it located [the focus of this extended thread, after all]? As far as I can tell, there is no significant gap between attested Scythian at the 8th cent BCE and the language of RV. What? Perhaps a couple of centuries? How old exactly is RV 8.46? And where was it composed? In my view, early Vedic, and in particular RV book 8, is better understood as the product of an Indo-Iranian culture, rather than as a strictly Indic one. I have made this assertion repeatedly on this list." What is the date of Rigveda? 3000 B.C. written in Harappa??? Do you have any concrete evidence to disprove Prof. Thompson? I also scanned thru' J. Lesley Fitton, The discovery of the Greek bronze age. Harvard UP, 1996. Astoninshingly, the vast Greek texts do not speak of Crete and Mycenae either. These cities have been found only recently. Why does it become inadmissible among the Indian powerful & mighty elites that 'Aryans, speaking a language akin to Old Iranian, entered India like what Indo-Europeans have done all over the world?' Example: Celts, Hittites, Greeks. Let me also quote Prof. Witzel, Harvard university, +Substrates exist anywhere in the world, except before the +Americas and Polynesia were first populated, comparatively +recently. E.g., Europe is full of substrates and no one denies or +deplores that. So why should it be different in South Asia? No one + *ever* entered ? N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun May 2 16:29:14 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 12:29:14 -0400 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048440.23782.471181282203895880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/2/99 10:22:11 AM Central Daylight Time, vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Many modern Hindus also (including myself) are Vedicists and > yet use Pauranic and Tantric rituals for our daily devotions. I am interested to know what kind of Vedic, Puranic, and Tantric rituals are performed by Agarwals. >Another classical > example is that of the Sri Sampradaya or the Ubahaya Vedanta, on which > I created a website recently. I would like to know the address of the website. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun May 2 16:36:45 1999 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 12:36:45 -0400 Subject: Dr. E. Bryant's paper In-Reply-To: <19990502123205.29556.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048442.23782.4863568015367304150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Now the semester is winding down to an end, I will try to fulfill this commitment some time over the summer. I still have to fine tune a few last details of my own research which will have major implications on my own thinking on this matter. This, coupled with semester pressures, have caused me to procrastinate somewhat. Also, in honesty, I have been reticent to start off a new round of polemics on this list, many of which have been less than useful to, I suspect, most of us. So sometime over the summer (by July?) I hope to post a very succinct outline of what I consider to be *all* the data relevant to the origins of the Indo-Aryans under different categories (dialect geography, substratum, Indus Valley, Vedic textual dating, etc), along with the range of possible interpretations of such data from all *rational* points of view. This could then form the basis for more detailed discussion on specific aspects of this data amongst those who are interested. This discussion can be conducted either on, or off, the list (depending on the degree of interest, the level of scholarship of the dialogue and the wishes of the moderator given the history of such discussions on this list) . My own manuscript is in the final process of review by the publisher and will be out of my life come hell or high water by September. Regards, Edwin Bryant. On Sun, 2 May 1999, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > I read the list manager's message dated 5 Jan 99. Is Ed Bryant's paper > now available in the INDOLOGY website? > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I wonder if Dr. Fosse, or anyone else well-acquainted with this > >subject, would summarize.. > > This is a very good idea, and I am hoping to post a paper by Ed Bryant > on the INDOLOGY web site in the not too distant future which will > fulfil this purpose. > > In the meantime, I'm afraid it is a matter of picking through the > archives. I have not seen anything new on this topic posted to the > list for a long time; just a great deal of emotion. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sun May 2 20:30:08 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 13:30:08 -0700 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048456.23782.7479515075539975310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Bo Klintberg wrote: > The testimony of a drunk on the street in New York City > (who heard a story from his even more drunk friend from down the street, > who saw it with his own eyes) should therefore be evaluated differently > than that of a self-realized sage in the Himalayas (who heard a story from > another self-realized sage in the Himalayas, who saw it with his own > eyes). What is a Himalayan self-realized sage? Or, the usual Orientalism working here to create something exotic in Shangri-Las compared to NY? I thought self-realization is 'getting drunk' too. Self-realized sages in Himalayas as far as my interviews go, are drunk with God, but more often, they like soma, opium, ganja and the like. SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Sun May 2 18:05:24 1999 From: klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Bo Klintberg) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 14:05:24 -0400 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. In-Reply-To: <372B0A27.73EB291F@online.no> Message-ID: <161227048452.23782.16619215885797185368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars Martin, Here are just some quick points I would like to make in response to your last response. I thank you for being very explicit about your account. On Sat, 1 May 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > 1. Indo-Europeans migrated. Such migrations are historically recorded since the first > millenium BCE. I see no reasons why they shouldn't have migrated before that. It is > the only reasonable explanation for the extensive spread of Indo-European languages, > and probably also for some archaeological data as well. Let us play with the thought that it is proven that Indo-Europeans migrated. That statement does not, of course, necessarily mean that ALL Indo-Europeans migrated; just that SOME did. Also, I think your claim about an alleged migration before the recorded one is a really bad argument: If X did action A at time T, then it is much more likely that X did action A* at time T-1, than he did not do it all. I don't say that you could not argue for an earlier migration; I just want you to present very good reasons for it--which you haven't, so far. > 2. The earliest migrations were by people without a writing system. Which means that > they had an oral history. Which means that "history" very quickly got absorbed by myth > (see e.g. Eliade, Myth of the Eternal Return, or Cosmos and History".). However, we > sometimes see a need for a "history" (as in Rome, where Virgil produced an epic on the > basis of imaginary history). In such cases, origins were regarded as important and > "histories" were produced. The problem here, I believe, is that you are not evaluating different sources differently. Your argument goes, I believe: since we have seen that Virgil can produce false history, all other historical accounts that we come across that seem too strange also must be false histories. I think that many historians would be well served by thinking more about testimony and who produces testimony. In other words, different persons have different motives. My point is that the characteristics of a person determine the credibility of the testimony; therefore one should take into consideration the personal characteristics of the person giving the testimony. The testimony of a drunk on the street in New York City (who heard a story from his even more drunk friend from down the street, who saw it with his own eyes) should therefore be evaluated differently than that of a self-realized sage in the Himalayas (who heard a story from another self-realized sage in the Himalayas, who saw it with his own eyes). >3. What you choose to regard as important is a matter of personal taste. >My point was simply that the non-mention of migrations in the Veda >doesn't prove anything. It is an argument ex nihilo. Yes, that's exactly my point, it doesn't prove ANYTHING--neither one of the possibilities. Therefore, you can't draw any conclusions from that fact alone, just as I cannot draw any conclusions from it--either one is possible. With all respect, Bo Klintberg Institute for the History and Philosophy of Science and Technology University of Toronto From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun May 2 15:45:52 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 17:45:52 +0200 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by GregoryL.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048435.23782.4979998689390868160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal wrote: > There should be no need for anyone to feel emotional bout the issue. Even > those who claim that the anscestors of Indians came from outside 30 > centuries back should ponder over the fact that there are not many countries > in the world that can claim such a long continuity in ethnic identity. And, > in any case, modern anthropological studies have demonstrated that Indians > share almost 80% of all genetic traits, showing that even if different groups > entered into India at different times, they have intermarried so much at > different times that they have ceased to be different racial groups. Only 80%? From what I have read, humans and chimps share between 98 and 99 % of their genes. Could you be a bit more specific here, or are we faced with a new scientific sensation? :-) Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 3 00:51:22 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 17:51:22 -0700 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048458.23782.4223668690600258430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >So be it. But then the traditional Pundits of India are no less trained >Vedicists. I have come across Rigvedins who will, from memory, point out >most of the Richas with the word 'Shambhar', Arya etc. if requested to do >so. There competence in the intepretation of >Vedic Sanskrit can be second to none. Dear Vishal, Having been employed in India and abroad for several years, I can confidantly say that traditional panditas have good Sanskrit knowledge, though not in Vedic. Sadly, it is also rapidly declining. However the traditional Indian ways of explaining do not stand upto close academic scrutiny. Indian pundits are not trained in the disciplines necessary to probe deep into the past, of India or other cultures. Yours, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun May 2 16:00:59 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 18:00:59 +0200 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048436.23782.7083764344104889007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal wrote: > My understanding is that Dr. Rajaram does not deny that the anscestors of > modern Indians might have come from a region outside the Indian > Subcontinent--they only suggest that such a conclusion is not at all > warranted by the Vedic texts and any attempts to relate the words of Vedic > texts to other findings are questionable. The way I read Rajaram, he certainly would deny the so-called "invasion" theory. My point was not to start this debate all over, but rather to point to the fact that lack of information in Indian sources does not necessarily mean that the migration did not take place. Talageri's reading of the Vedas and Puranas is more problematic than Talageri himself and Rajaram would seem to realize. I am now trying to work out an epistemological argument related to these matters for a paper which I am preparing, and I am afraid that you will have to wait for my paper for a more detailed answer. > I am not congizant of the oral traditons of Scandinavians but I sure that > even if they survive and have been recorded. they will not match the Vedic > lore in extent or in antiquity. That is perfectly correct. The sources are about a 1000 years old. But Scandinavian religion is extremely archaic, and the historiography of Snorri would very likely have contained a myth or account of origins if such an account had been available to him. > There are some ancient literatures like > those of the Zoroastrainians, which allude to a migration from the east, and > not from west, as suggested by many modern Orientalists. East and west are always relative entities. I believe that airyanam vaejo has been assumed to be in Bactria somewhere, but I am not an expert on these matters, so I'll let them rest. > In his book "The Aryan Ivasion Theory and Indian Nationaislm", Srikant > Talegeri has infact scanned the Puranas and the Vedic Lore to demonstrate > that they, at best, allude to a migration from the Gangetic plains to Punjab > and westewards thereafter and so on. Supporters of the Aryan Invasion theory > might dismiss this entire book by questioning (without any basis) the > historicity of the Pauranic accounts, but that is hardly an argument. It is an argument if you explain why you dismiss the Pauranic accounts. Since you obviously distrust the invasionists, let me suggest that you read Dilip K. Chakrabarti on the Puranas in his book Colonial Indology. Ch. is not an invasionist. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun May 2 20:04:33 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 02 May 99 22:04:33 +0200 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by GregoryL.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048454.23782.18076863000986565012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bo Klintberg wrote: > Here are just some quick points I would like to make in response to your > last response. I thank you for being very explicit about your account. > > On Sat, 1 May 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > 1. Indo-Europeans migrated. Such migrations are historically recorded since the first > > millenium BCE. I see no reasons why they shouldn't have migrated before that. It is > > the only reasonable explanation for the extensive spread of Indo-European languages, > > and probably also for some archaeological data as well. > > Let us play with the thought that it is proven that Indo-Europeans > migrated. That statement does not, of course, necessarily mean that ALL > Indo-Europeans migrated; just that SOME did. I never said that ALL Indo-Europeans migrated. If I were to be more precise, the only logical consequence of supposing a "homeland" is that, seen over a period of several thousand years, MOST Indo-European peoples have been involved in migration one way or the other. But most INDIVIDUAL Indo-Europeans have not migrated. > Also, I think your claim > about an alleged migration before the recorded one is a really bad > argument: If X did action A at time T, then it is much more likely that > X did action A* at time T-1, than he did not do it all. I don't say that > you could not argue for an earlier migration; I just want you to > present very good reasons for it--which you haven't, so far. If I may put this in slightly humerous language: we can observe, that as soon as the Light of History hits Eurasia, tribes and armies crisscross the continent almost with the regularity of inter-city trains. Now, you seem to assume that as soon as the Light of History is turned off, everybodys sits down and eats his agricultural oatmeal porrige and doesn't budge until the Light of History is turned on again. However, migrations can be predicated on a number of factors: climatic changes, problems with soil quality, overpopulation, war etc. all of which could easily happen at any time during prehistory, and which archaeology sometimes seem to indicate have really happened. Therefore, assuming migrations during prehistory on the basis of what we can observe in historical times is not such a bad idea. I will not concede that you have weakened my argument. > > 2. The earliest migrations were by people without a writing system. Which means that > > they had an oral history. Which means that "history" very quickly got absorbed by myth > > (see e.g. Eliade, Myth of the Eternal Return, or Cosmos and History".). However, we > > sometimes see a need for a "history" (as in Rome, where Virgil produced an epic on the > > basis of imaginary history). In such cases, origins were regarded as important and > > "histories" were produced. > > The problem here, I believe, is that you are not evaluating different > sources differently. ... My point is that the characteristics of a person > determine the credibility of the testimony; therefore one should take into > consideration the personal characteristics of the person giving the > testimony. The testimony of a drunk on the street in New York City > (who heard a story from his even more drunk friend from down the street, > who saw it with his own eyes) should therefore be evaluated differently > than that of a self-realized sage in the Himalayas (who heard a story from > another self-realized sage in the Himalayas, who saw it with his own > eyes). Hm. I would say that this argument has an inherent weakness: Much depends upon what the drunks are saying. If we assume that your New York drunk has been talking to a rather tipsy Einstein who claims that energy equalsh the shpeed of light multi-ti-plied by massh in the shecond po-potency, then your drunk is absolutely correct. And what about a self-realized sage claiming that the moon wanes because it is being swallowed by Rahu? Does he really know what he's talking about? Of course, I agree that some witnesses are more reliable than others, but in my book, men of religion do not rank highly on the reliability scale. On a number of occasions, I would prefer a drunk New Yorker to a sober man of the cloth. > > >3. What you choose to regard as important is a matter of personal taste. > >My point was simply that the non-mention of migrations in the Veda > >doesn't prove anything. It is an argument ex nihilo. > > Yes, that's exactly my point, it doesn't prove ANYTHING--neither one of > the possibilities. Therefore, you can't draw any conclusions from that > fact alone, just as I cannot draw any conclusions from it--either one is > possible. Ah, but you can draw some conclusions. You can draw the conclusion that the absence of a piece of information PROVES nothing because it opens up the possibility of at least two answers to the problem. And you would be surprised to see how often this is forgotten in scholarly debates. Respectfully, Lars Martin Fosse From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Mon May 3 07:37:47 1999 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 03 May 99 00:37:47 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies In-Reply-To: <19990502141432.30852.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048462.23782.816139069116140873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Tilak, I do not know in what context or in what spirit prof. Sharma made the remark you quote, but the fact that you have chosen to mention it, along with recent comments on the list regarding the Aryan migrations, prompts me to say a few words. As anybody who has been on this list for some time is aware, there is a periodic -shall I say cyclical- recurrence of discussions that bring up the subject of indigenous aryanism, the historical primacy of India, and related matters. This usually starts with new members of the list who are not familiar with previous exchanges on these subjects, but have come across some of the rapidly growing popular literature that refers to the so-called "recently demonstrated falseness" of scholarly ideas on these matters. Many of us will be glad to have Edwin Bryant's synthesis of the arguments (as he has just confirmed he will do in the coming months). The point I wish to make here is that a persistent problem when this subject comes up seems to be an assumed polar opposition between "Western" and "Indian" abilities to understand things and have opinions about them. Your reference to "Indic paradigms of knowledge and scholarship" is, in this sense, somewhat troubling. The problem with an approach like this is an assumption that a geographical/cultural area imposes a certain perception of reality that is universally and eternally valid for that area. This is clearly not the case, as what we today call India has had as many different opinions about truth as any other geographical or cultural area, including Europe and what we now refer to as "the West." Broad generalizations about "Indian" or "Western" scholars or scholarship, while useful in some historical analyses, can be very misleading. A good recent example is Said's "orientalism" which paints Western perceptions of lands beyond Greece -from the early Greek thinkers to Henry Kissinger- with the same broad brush and, it would seem, attributes to all one same hidden agenda, thus removing the importance of specific cultural, religious, historical, psychological and personal contexts. Many of the regularly offered arguments against currently accepted ideas concerning Indo-Aryan migrations and related matters seem to take as a starting point a criticism of a supposed persistent and pervasive "Western" prejudice. Attacks on these perceived prejudices are usually symbolized in the figure of Max Muller, who has become a sort of punching bag. They ignore not only much of the scholarship since Muller's time, but also how academic attitudes in the "West" have changed in many quarters (changes that have allowed for Said's popularity). I would assume that most serious scholars will agree that good analyses, perceptive and intuitive insights, and informed opinions are not bound by nationality or culture. A good scholar or thinker is still a good scholar or thinker, whether he is Western or Eastern. Assuming, automatically, that a traditional commentator is wrong or right is just as bad as assuming that a Western scholar is. Both are prejudices that betray the presence of bad scholarship. Not Western or Indian scholarship, just bad scholarship. The British administration in India made use of, and fostered, the distinction between the West as more rational (and, therefore, more capable of administering the land) and the East (mainly India) as more emotional and philosophical. Vivekananda's use of the same idea when writing of India's spiritual supremacy was harshly criticized by Indians who saw it as playing into colonial ideology. [This East-West dichotomy, by the way, has persisted among Western occult traditions that characterize the West as Solar (and Apollonian) and the East as Lunar (and Dyonisiac).] It would surely be useful to anyone interested in current popular (and often sensationalistic) literature attacking "Western invasion theories," to look carefully at many of these popular arguments that tend to frame the discussion within an East-West divide, arousing nationalistic or anti-imperialist feelings instead of careful reflection. Best wishes, Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann, Ph.D. University of California, Berkeley At 07:14 AM 5/2/99 -0700, you wrote: > N.S.Rajaram's review of Indus Age: The Writing System by Gregory >Possehl's book by Dr Rajaram (made available to this list by Vishal Agarwal) >calls for "a new school of thought" in the field of Indology. This appeal >reminds me of the suggestion formally made by Arvind Sharma of McGill >University, Montreal at the conference on Dharma and History held in Shimla >in July 1997 that western scholarship on Indology be known as "Gentoo >Studies" in order to distinguish it from contributions made by Indians >themselves using Indic paradigms of knowledge and scholarship. > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 3 16:31:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 03 May 99 09:31:19 -0700 Subject: Narayana's color Message-ID: <161227048478.23782.7908028832327157939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Vishnu sahasranamam tells us that viSNu is 'megha varNam zubhAGgam' and 'megha zyAmam'. Are there any other places in the epics, R. and MBh. that say viSNu nArAyana is black or dark in complexion? Also, any quotes from Kalidasa or Bhasa (esp. BAlacarita) on Vishnu? Does F. Hardy's viraha bhakti discuss Vishnu's color? What about Nandita Krishna's Iconography of Vishnu Narayana? In the MBh., Arjuna is called nara and Krishna is nArAyana often. Arjuna is black and when Arjuna and Krishna ride the chariot, does the epic say that TWO Krishnas are in the chariot? Is Durga called Narayani because she is black? Later religious developments make Durga the sister of Narayana. Is it because both are black? We have the Naaraayanii/Naalaayanii story too. Many thanks for quotes from Sanskrit where Narayana is black, niila, aJjana, dark, etc., Respectfully yours, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Mon May 3 13:37:27 1999 From: klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Bo Klintberg) Date: Mon, 03 May 99 09:37:27 -0400 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by GregoryL.Possehl. In-Reply-To: <372CAFD1.622A14F@online.no> Message-ID: <161227048465.23782.10746659176358074127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just would like to thank Lars Martin Fosse and other contributors for an interesting discussion. I wish all of you nothing but the best. Greetings from an exceptionally sunny and warm Toronto, Bo Klintberg From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 3 18:46:19 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 03 May 99 11:46:19 -0700 Subject: Trilingual inscriptions from Lanka Message-ID: <161227048476.23782.1909389937375342512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance Cousins writes : >Actually 'Hindu' temples are all over. I suspect that there is (or was) no >particular problem with either this or Buddhist monasteries. There is a lot >of objection to the use of American fundamentalist money to build churches >and schools etc. and 'purchase conversion'. Ofcourse, Christian missionary activity outside education and social welfare, is not kindly looked upon anywhere in the subcontinent. And the move by the US to set up a military base in Lanka did not go well with India. Indira Gandhi organized and funded the Tamil secessionist movement to subvert any such moves by the US. I was born and raised in Madras and am familiar with the Tamil world view. They would respect the Buddhists for what they are, but any attempt to belittle their faith would make them go ballistic. And those SinhAlese I've met and quite a few of them were Buddhist bhikshus, don't think much of the religion of the Tamils. So I definitely don't subscribe to the "all was well until ", theory. And the predominant feeling of the Lankan Tamil Community (again of those whom I've met), is that there was a state sponsored attempt to culturally cleanse Lanka of Tamil influence. >Again, the problem was that Sinhalese wanted to see their own language >brought back to use in their own land. This was a very natural and >legitimate objective, but it brought very serious problems for the Tamils. >I think the first thing that is needed in such a case is to recognize that >the problems are real and difficult. If you sweep aside the difficulties, >you will end up looking for scapegoats. Nobody is ignoring the difficulties. Ofcourse, the SinhAlese wanted their language as the main language of the land. Legitimate objective? There is no way that the Tamils would give up their language. In the first place they have great pride in their language and literature. Secondly its religious implications are too acute, for them to just let go of it. One thing to be understood is that though they would coexist together comfortably in most circumstances, both peoples pride themselves on their own culture and looked down on the other. >Again, I think this reification of the difference is a gross >oversimplification. I suspect that most Tamil rulers in ancient Ceylon >(i.e. before about 1,000 A.D.) and many since would have supported both >Buddhist and Shaiva, etc. activities. Most Sinhalese kings certainly >offered worship to the gods. To offer worship to the Gods means nothing. Buddhism wasn't born in the land and didn't even come during the life of the Compassionate One. It came through Ashoka and was assimilated with the local culture of the land. How much effect it had on the local practices, needs deeper analysis - for eg : it doesn't seem to have affected the culinary habits of the Sinhalese - even the bhikshus are meat eaters. And contrary to all the beliefs that Buddhism and Jainism held great sway in Tamil Nadu in the past (again the reason as mentioned above - and animals are sacrificed to the Gods even today in Tamil Nadu), theistic worship seems to have always been in vogue with the Tamils. And can one ignore the intensity of dislike in the works of the bhakti saints against the nAstikas? That there would not have been a friction due to this divergence in world view, is not plausible. And also observe the political influence of the Buddhist priesthood in Lanka. 'Julius' Jayawardhane converted to Buddhism to take on the top job in Lanka. >Anyone who has spent time on the ground in the island will know that there >are all sorts of religious activities in which both Sinhalese and Tamils >participate together. Spent time when? Fifteen years back? Currently, Tamil population in Sinhalese areas is miniscule. And from what I hear, a good part of the Tamil area in Lanka for the past few years have been heavily dotted with mines - either by the army or the rebels. Religious activities where both the Tamils and the Sinhalese participle together - in Lanka? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 3 19:07:14 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 03 May 99 12:07:14 -0700 Subject: Narayana's Color Message-ID: <161227048480.23782.8322480407464429932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Vishnu sahasranamam tells us that viSNu is 'megha varNam zubhAGgam' and 'megha zyAmam'. Are there any other places in the epics, R. and MBh. that say viSNu nArAyana is black or dark in complexion? Also, any quotes from Kalidasa or Bhasa (esp. BAlacarita) on Vishnu? Does F. Hardy's viraha bhakti discuss Vishnu's color? What about Nandita Krishna's Iconography of Vishnu Narayana? In the MBh., Arjuna is called nara and Krishna is nArAyana often. Arjuna is black and when Arjuna and Krishna ride the chariot, does the epic say that TWO Krishnas are in the chariot? Is Durga called Narayani because she is black? Later religious developments make Durga the sister of Narayana. Interestingly, an earlier incarnation of Draupadi is Naaraayanii/Naalaayanii. Many thanks for quotes from Sanskrit where Narayana is black, niila, aJjana, dark, etc., Respectfully yours, N. Ganesan An alternate: The quotes can be sent privately to naga_ganesan at hotmail.com. Thanks. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From athr at LOC.GOV Mon May 3 18:55:01 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 03 May 99 14:55:01 -0400 Subject: Embryology in Ayurveda (Was: A text relating to Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048472.23782.15276895002929719708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is the following treatment of embryology in Ayurveda: 75-904774: Dash, Bhagwan, 1934- Embryology & maternity in ayurveda / 1st ed. New Delhi : Delhi Diary, 1975. xv, 147 p., {6} leaves of plates : ill. ; 22 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: RG55 .D37 Allen Thrasher Library of Congress Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Mon May 3 18:55:26 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 03 May 99 14:55:26 -0400 Subject: Book needed (Rajaprasniya) Message-ID: <161227048474.23782.15830485032915338065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Library of Congress has the following eds.: 1. 93-907343: Jaina Agama. Upanga. Rayapaseniya. Hindi & Prakrit. Rajaprasniya sutra {microform} / Sikandarabada (Daksina) : Jaina Sastroddhara Mudralaya, 1918. 304 p. ; 13 x 23 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: Microfiche 93/61430 (B) 2. 83-905993: Jaina Agama. Upanga. Rayapaseniya. Hindi & Prakrit. Rajaprasniyasutram : dvitiya-Upangam : mulapatha, Hindi anuvada, vivecana, parisishta yukta / Byavara, Rajasthana : Sri Agamaprakasana-Samiti, 1982. 40, 244 p. ; 25 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: BL1312.6.R382 H5 1982 3. sa68-11033: Siddhanta. Upanga. Rayapaseniya. Sri Rajapra-nivasutram. Raajprashniya sutram. 1965- v. ports. 25 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: PK5003.A53 R35 (Orien Prak) Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon May 3 20:35:07 1999 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone) Date: Mon, 03 May 99 16:35:07 -0400 Subject: Malayalam virama Message-ID: <161227048463.23782.17919919736483590659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In connection with the development of an International Standard on Indic transliteration, there are some points about the Malayalam virama on which I should like to appeal to list members for help. As I understand it, the Malayalam virama (which looks like a free-standing breve) has the following special uses in writing Malayalam language, apart from its 'normal' use of removing the inherent vowel: it turns the preceding vowel into half-u in the situations (a), (b) - (a) final in a word, after the vowel 'u', always; (b) final in a word, after the inherent 'a'; except as in (c), (d) - (c) if the word is a single consonant with its inherent vowel + virama, then the virama has its normal meaning; (d) final ya+virama means y + "half-i" (in pronunciation). (e) medial ya + virama also means y + "half-i", equivalent to the old cillu-ya [pure consonant form of 'y']. Questions: (1) Is there any case where a single consonant with its inherent vowel + virama means the word formed of that consonant + half-u? (2) Is the half-u present in any other Dravidian language, where it is not distinguished in its usual script, but shown when the language is written in Malayalam script? If so, which method is used to show half-u? (3) Are the cases (a) - (e) correct and exhaustive (taking into account both the old and new styles of writing)? Many thanks, Tony Stone Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic scripts. Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com Thinking aloud on transliteration: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm From senthurann at YAHOO.COM Tue May 4 01:35:03 1999 From: senthurann at YAHOO.COM (Senthuran Nagalingam) Date: Mon, 03 May 99 18:35:03 -0700 Subject: FWD ;'Earliest writing' found Message-ID: <161227048467.23782.9414741493620520343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Taken from BBC web-site http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_334000/334517.stm Tuesday, May 4, 1999 Published at 01:04 GMT 02:04 UK Sci/Tech 'Earliest writing' found The fragments of pottery are about 5,500 years old Exclusive by BBC News Online Science Editor Dr David Whitehouse The first known examples of writing may have been unearthed at an archaeological dig in Pakistan. So-called 'plant-like' and 'trident-shaped' markings have been found on fragments of pottery dating back 5500 years. They were found at a site called Harappa in the region where the great Harappan or Indus civilisation flourished four and a half thousand years ago. Harappa was originally a small settlement in 3500 BC but by 2600 BC it had developed into a major urban centre. The earliest known writing was etched onto jars before and after firing. Experts believe they may have indicated the contents of the jar or be signs associated with a deity. According to Dr Richard Meadow of Harvard University, the director of the Harappa Archaeological Research Project, these primitive inscriptions found on pottery may pre-date all other known writing. Last year it was suggested that the oldest writing might have come from Egypt. Clay tablets containing primitive words were uncovered in southern Egypt at the tomb of a king named Scorpion. They were carbon-dated to 3300-3200 BC. This is about the same time, or slightly earlier, to the primitive writing developed by the Sumerians of the Mesopotamian civilisation around 3100 BC. "It's a big question as to if we can call what we have found true writing," he told BBC News Online, "but we have found symbols that have similarities to what became Indus script. "One of our research aims is to find more examples of these ancient symbols and follow them as they changed and became a writing system," he added. One major problem in determining what the symbols mean is that no one understands the Indus language. It was unique and is now dead. Dr Meadow points out that nothing similar to the 'Rosetta stone' exists for the Harappan text. The Rosetta stone contained Egyptian hieroglyphics and a Greek translation and thus helped early language researchers decipher the meaning. The Harappan language died out and did not form the basis of other languages. "So probably we will never know what the symbols mean," Dr Meadow told BBC News Online from Harappa. What historians know of the Harappan civilisation makes them unique. Their society did not like great differences between social classes or the display of wealth by rulers. They did not leave behind large monuments or rich graves. They appear to be a peaceful people who displayed their art in smaller works of stone. Their society seems to have petered out. Around 1900 BC Harappa and other urban centres started to decline as people left them to move east to what is now India and the Ganges. This discovery will add to the debate about the origins of the written word. It probably suggests that writing developed independently in at least three places - Egypt, Mesopotamia and Harappa between 3500 BC and 3100 BC. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 4 11:56:32 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 04:56:32 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048484.23782.6823072797578671943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > N.S.Rajaram's review of Indus Age: The Writing System by Gregory >Possehl's book by Dr Rajaram (made available to this list by Vishal >Agarwal) calls for "a new school of thought" in the field of >Indology. This appeal reminds me of the suggestion formally made by >Arvind Sharma of McGill University, Montreal at the conference on >Dharma and History held in Shimla in July 1997 that western >scholarship on Indology be known as "Gentoo Studies" in order to >distinguish it from contributions made by Indians themselves >using Indic paradigms of knowledge and scholarship. Hope the world does not have to go by the mirror images from India of TV evangelists' version of biblical archaeology, linguistics, history. As I recall, Arvind Sharma usually uses Western style in analysis. I remember the foreword in his book, Buddhism (I have to get it from the basement) that he was intrigued by the idea of deconstruction. This was explained to him on a flight from Australia to Canada when he was offered a teaching job in N. America. Then he learnt deconstruction more and wrote the book, Buddhism an old 'deconstruction' method. May be Arvind won't buy the opinions of Talageri, Rajaram, Frawley. Has he written along with them?? Yours, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 4 13:17:06 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 06:17:06 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048485.23782.3200876884787144210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >May be Arvind won't buy the opinions of Talageri, Rajaram, Frawley. >Has he written along with them?? You probably forgot about S. Kak. Important point about most `Indigenous Aryan' schoolers is that they do not know a *single* word in Tamil. For them, the main theorists come from Sanskritized elites of Andhra and Karnataka. I suspect this has more to do with the recent history. I have heard slogans calling for Tamil Aiyangars in Tirupati, Andhra and Tamils in Bangalore, Karnataka must be sent 'home'! For some Kannadigas and Telugus, it is hard to take that their origins have more relations to do with Dravidian than anything else. Probably, even Rajaram and Talageri may know little, spoken Tamil. They may not able to explain one Alvar pAsuram, the fountainhead of ubhaya vedAnta (I bet). That is why the attack on Linguistics, Indo-European theory and so forth. Poor Tamil. Regards, N. Ganesan Reminder: For the standard 'consensus' from academia is that Indus culture is Dravidian (cf. Parpola, Mahadevan). _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 4 14:20:02 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 07:20:02 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048489.23782.16857172191392179572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > >May be Arvind won't buy the opinions of Talageri, Rajaram, Frawley. > >Has he written along with them?? > > You probably forgot about S. Kak. Important point about most > `Indigenous Aryan' schoolers is that they do not know a *single* > word in Tamil. One way to handle this is to increase the number of Professorships in Tamil and other Dravidian language, lit. studies. Hope the Western and Japanese universities do that. This issue was talked about before particularly by Drs. Palaniappan and Zydenbos. Gladly, Dr. Martha Selby is recently given a position at UTexas, Austin. Annac Chelvi, D/O K. Paramasivan (teacher of Tamil to many Americans) conveys her best wishes to Dr. Selby. SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT Tue May 4 07:18:02 1999 From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 08:18:02 +0100 Subject: Does the puruSa will? (was: Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) In-Reply-To: <000401be9202$cd8fdd20$0851b59d@dial.elte.hu> Message-ID: <161227048469.23782.8543635762860698908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [In reply to Ferenc Ruzsa's message of 28 Apr 99] 7F00,0000,0000 0000,0000,0000Dear Ferenc, it is hardly possible to pursue a discussion such as this through this means. However, I shall try to make at least a few points. First of all, we should carefully distinguish between the theoretical and historico-philological import of the discussion. On the theoretical side, we may regard a certain statement as unwarranted or inconsistent, which must not in any way hinder our recognition, whether or not such statement has been made, on the historico-philological side. In this connection, when in reply to Vidyashankar's contention that 7F00,0000,0000> > to hold such a 'will' or 'desire' to be responsible for the > > evolution of the tanmAtras is plainly non-sAMkhyan you maintain that it is 7F00,0000,0000 > Atypical, but not impossible. In SK 21 evolution (sarga) is said to > occur for the puruSa to experience (puruSasya darzanArthaM). Here the > puruSa seems to be the subject both of experiencing (darzana) and > wishing it (artha, purpose). Else who could have that particular > purpose? 0000,0000,0000I concede that on the theoretical side we may have misgivings about the notion of a purpose without an intelligent subject entertaining it. Still the interpretation of SK 21 is not as plain as that, in my opinion. The first half runs "puruSasya darzanArtham kaivalyArtham tathA pradhAnasya". If you regard the puruSa as the subject of both experiencing and wishing, then what about pradhAna? The chiastic disposition suggests some sort of symmetry, which, however, is not easily discovered. The commentators, in fact, are at variance; but it is impossible to go into details here. Moreover, even on the theoretical side, I should just like to suggest that one does sometimes in fact speak about purpose without any purposing one, e.g. rain may be (perhaps loosely) said to serve the purpose of the seeds' growing, without either (or perhaps even without anybody) actually purposing anything. 7F00,0000,0000> > I think "will" is explicitly denied of the puruSa itself already in the > > kArikA, when the puruSa is styled *madhyastha* (19) and above all > > *udAsIna* (20). > Both terms imply impartiality, neutrality and inactivity. (There *is* an > alternative interpretation, but I will not pursue it here.) I think it is > fair to infer that the puruSa is without passion (or even without emotion? > but cf. SK55: duHkhaM prApnoti puruSaH); so probably the locus of (some) > emotions might be somewhere in the antaHkaraNa. It does not follow that > the locus of volition is not the puruSa. 0000,0000,0000 Here I will not pursue this point further, since I am satisfied with your concurrence that in SK 19-20 the puruSa is described as impartial, neutral, inactive and even impassive. This being granted, I cannot envisage any more space for volition as I understand it. This brings us to the question of adhyavasAya. 7F00,0000,0000> > it is nature herself who supplies the "deliberation" or adhyavasAya > > element > Clearly, SK 23.: adhyavasAyo buddhir; but adhyavasAya is a difficult term, > meaning here probably grasping, understanding, judgement (not decision, as > in the gauDapAda passage you quoted ad SK 20). Cf. the analysis in > Oberhammer et al. (Terminologie der fr hen philosophischen Scholastik in > Indien, Band 1, s. 29): "Es ist das sAMkhya, das (jedenfalls seit > IzvarakRSNa) den *adhyavasAya* im strikt technischen Sinne nur f r dieses > dem Erkennen eigene Erfassen des Gegenstandes als das, was er ist, > verwendet" 0000,0000,0000 As Larson (Classical SAMkhya, p. 182) notes, adhyavasAya is akin to vyavasAya as used in BhG 2.41 with the meaning of "resolution", a consideration (among others) which leads him to suggest that buddhi should be best taken as "will", though not quite in the sense of "conscious decision". This is perhaps going too far; on the other hand, I do not think there need be an irreconcilable opposition between Oberhammer's understanding of adhyavasAya and the one implied here. What is essential is that something that was fluctuating is "tied down", so to speak (ava-so), i.e. fixed or determined. A definite stance is taken in ascertaining the object, which means at one and the same time determining one's own relationship towards the object (on account of one's own individual karmic dispositions etc.), hence ipso facto also deliberating about it. Regards, ---------------------------- Paolo Magnone Catholic University of Milan pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 4834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Tue May 4 15:56:27 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 08:56:27 -0700 Subject: Etymology of Skt. rAma (part 2 of 2) Message-ID: <161227048495.23782.13344781503524796210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Skt. rAma's derivation from Tamil roots - part 2 of 2 ------------------------------------------------ ------ [draft] Periannan Chandrasekaran perichandra at yahoo.com There are multiple routes possible: ----------------------------------- All of them must take care of the prominence to the "m" phoneme in the word "rAm" especially when deriving from Ta. irA or Ta. iravu. Accounting for the phoneme "rA" is straighforward from Ta. irA, irum etc. But from the discussion above it is clear that inroduction of the "m" phoneme is not going to be diffiuclt at all since that phoneme is the soul of another root in Tamil meaning "black" and "viSNu". 1. Skt. rAm < ....< Ta. irA 2. Skt. rAm < ....< Ta. irum 3. skt. rAm <...< Ta. We take route #1 which involves the most work to account for "m". Skt. rAm <...Ta. irA. --------------------- It must be noted that even from the "irA" root, adding "m" to extend is frequent when the word ends in the long vowel "A". This is witnessed with respect to most classical Tamil names for trees (which interestingly are usually one syllable and end in "A") which have "trivial" alternate names by extending them with "m". Ta. marAm < Ta. marA = cadamba Ta. viLAm < Ta. viLa = wood apple Ta. kurAm < Ta. kurA = and so on. [Note: it is interesting to recall the story involving vAlmiki being trained to utter rAma by strating with the tree name "marA" or "marAm"!. Also note that the tree "marA" seems to be the tree for Tamils since the simplest word for that tree involves the simplest instance(s) of the pattern identified above for classical Tamil names: yA, A. Also note that the name for mango tree is: Ta. mA. and dark complexion of a lady in akam poetry is often compared to the young leaf of mango tree. kamparAmAyaNam itself uses this to describe Sita's forehand: kampan:2(ayOtiyAkANTam):685:3] Here it must also be noted that the word-final long vowel "A" in words conforming to certain patterns such as "" can have a transformation yileding another word ending with the phonems "avu" and/or "avam" with the same sense: Ta. viLavam < Ta. viLA Ta. kuravam < Ta. kurA Ta. cuRavu /cuRavam < Ta. cuRa = shark Ta. naRavam < Ta. narA Dropping of word-initial "i" ---------------------------- It is common to drop the word-initial "i" followed by "r" or "l" especially in colloquialisms: Ta. (colloquial) rA < Ta. irA. Ta. (colloquial) rAvu < Ta. iravu < Ta. irA Ta. (colloquial) ravai < Ta. iravu etc. "v"/"m" interchange: --------------------- And since both "v" and "m" are at leat partly labial, "v" <->"m" interchange is expected. And it is attested by the Tamil rules of prosody for assonance where "v"/"m" are assonant pairs. Skt. rAma < rAmu < Ta. rAvu < Ta. irA Skt. rAma < rAm < irAm < Ta. irA skt. rAma < rAvam < iravam < Ta. iravu < Ta. irA Skt. rAma < rAm < < Ta.rAman2 (applying "v/m" interchange) < Ta. irAvan2 < < Ta. irAvan2 ("v" cementing consonant) Skt. rAma's derivation from Tamil roots - part 1 of 2 ----------------------------------------------------- [draft] Periannan Chandrasekaran perichandra at yahoo.com It appears that Skt. is "rAm" must also mean "black" given that almost all names for viSNu mean "the dark one". The most commonly cited meaning for "rAm" is "handsome" even though the most commonly cited attribute of rAma is his dark skin. I submit that Skt. rAm is derived from a family of Dravidian or Tamil words meaning Ta. irA, Ta. irum all meaning black or dark. There are two components to the word "rAm": the "rA" and the "m" sound. Ta. irA, iravu, irum all mean darkness, night. "iruL niRa munnIr vaLaiiya ulakattu" (t.muruku: 293) -->"in the world surrounded by the black ocean" Ta. "mA" also means "dark". A few sample reference for the one involving the "m" sound: The names for viSNu themselves are good examples. The most common names for viSNu in CT are from that "mA" root: "mAyOn2", (tolkAppiyam: "mAyOn2 mEya kATu uRai ulakam") "mAl" (paripAtal: 3: "iru kai mAal" ) mAmai = dark complexion. "titalai alkul en mAmaik kavin2" (kuRuntokai) etc. irum: "irum kaN veL yATTu ezil maRi .." (paripATal:5:62) -->"the white goat with black eyes" "irum piTi kuLirppa vici" (tirumurukARRuppaTai:300+) -->"blowing [to dry] the black female elephant" As to association of black skin tone wih beauty, classical Tamil text is replete with them; take any akam poetry and you have them occuring almost formulaically; one such combination is the "mAmaik kavin2" = "the beautiful dark complexion". And are there any references where the same word meaning black also means beauty etc. One example is: "kArikai". (it is well known that Ta. karu, kAr = black.) In a single anthology paripATal, the word kArikai itself occurs in the senses of: kArikai = beautiful woman; beauty, beautiful: kAri = tirumAl: "ceGkaN kAri.." (paripATal: 3.81) -->"...Oh the Dark God [vISNu] with red eyes..." kArikai = beautiful woman "..kArikai kaNTOrkkut tammOTu niRkumO neJcu" (paripATal tiraTTu:4) -->"..Can anyone that eyes the pretty woman be able to keep their hearts..?" "kArikaiyAkat tan2 kaNNI tiruttin2AL" (paripATal: 12.91) -->"...corrected her head band *beautifully*" "kArikai matu oruvarin2 oruvar kaNNil kavarpu uRa" (pari:11.68) -->"...they sip the intoxication of beauty from each other" --------------[continued in part 2] Regards, Chandra. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 4 16:35:41 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 09:35:41 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048497.23782.585618071173335893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Shrinivas, I, along with 99.999% Indians, are comfortable flying Boeing aeroplanes, taking medicine from Western pharmaceuticals, try to send myself or my kids to Harvard, ... I would imagine "Indic paradigms of scholarship and knowledge" must be valid everywhere, either in the Eastern (say, Japanese) and the Western (say, Cambridge) universities. Don't you agree? Curious thing about Kak, Frawdley, Talagiri, Rajaram, & their schoolers: None has any formal, university degrees in Linguistics or Archaeology. Regards SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 4 20:03:46 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 13:03:46 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048502.23782.461200032381270204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Lars Martin Fosse schrieb: > That is an important prerequisite for their scholarship, and they are > proud of it. They have no faith in Western scholarship such as > philology, linguistics etc, and they prefer to construct their own > version of scholarship. Is it euphemistically called `Indic paradigms of knowledge and scholarship'? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue May 4 09:34:37 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 13:34:37 +0400 Subject: House construction in Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro Message-ID: <161227048482.23782.18082467491796867601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Tue May 4 13:12:45 MSD 1999 Swaminathan Madhure (Apr. 25) wrote: >Are the IVC bricks sun-dried or kiln-baked? >Thanks for your answer. According to the same authority (Mackay, 1948), the IVC people as a rule used (in M-D and Harappa) kiln-baked bricks only for the whole building. But sometimes in the foundations of the buildings each row of kiln-baked bricks was followed by a row of sun-dried bricks (i.e., they alternated) - or - even more rare case - only sun-dried bricks were used. All best wishes, Yaroslav Vassilkov From Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH Tue May 4 12:43:50 1999 From: Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH (Anand Nayak) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 13:43:50 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit to French dictionary In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990501003523.009b1e40@pop-rocq.inria.fr> Message-ID: <161227048539.23782.15378598401676750355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Huet, I visited your indology page and admired it. The openning page is gorgeous. The dictionary seems to be very interesting and useful, handier than Renou-Tschoupak. I am sure the new sanskrit scholars will make good use of it. However, I must tell you that I did not succeed to open it on my Macintosh. It opened on a PC but the impression was very faint, so the reading was laborious. I guess it is a question of the computer know-how of which my level is very low. Thanks for making this work available on the web. Greetings. A. Nayak >I made a new edition of my Sanskrit to French dictionary. >It is available through my Indology page, at >http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT >where you will find instructions on how to download it. >Since many people had difficulty with the Postscript format, I made a pdf >version of it which everyone ought to be able to read with Acrobat Reader. >All comments welcome >Gerard Huet Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Route du Jura CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 4 21:47:53 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 14:47:53 -0700 Subject: Etymology of Skt. rAma (part 1 of 2) Message-ID: <161227048503.23782.2909795463910995175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote: >I submit that Skt. rAm is derived from a family of Dravidian or Tamil >words > meaning Ta. irA, Ta. irum all meaning black or dark. If I remember right, the word rAma or a close cognate occurs in Avestan also. Surely, etymological exercises tracing Dravidian roots for Skt words have to account for similar words in other I-Ir and IE family languages. Note also that Krishna's elder brother, (bala)rAma is not particularly mentioned as dark-skinned. Nor is the the other rAma with the ax, son of jamadgani. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 5 01:00:03 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 18:00:03 -0700 Subject: Does the puruSa will? (was: Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048512.23782.12139426843269135401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paolo Magnone wrote: As Larson (Classical SAMkhya, p. 182) notes, adhyavasAya is akin to vyavasAya as used in BhG 2.41 with the meaning of "resolution", a consideration (among others) which leads him to suggest that buddhi should be best taken as "will", though not quite in the sense of "conscious decision". This is perhaps going too far; on the other hand, I do not think there need be an irreconcilable opposition between Oberhammer's understanding of adhyavasAya and the one implied here. What is essential is that something that was fluctuating is "tied down", so to speak (ava-so), i.e. fixed or determined. A definite stance is taken in ascertaining the object, which means at one and the same time determining one's own relationship towards the object (on account of one's own individual karmic dispositions etc.), hence ipso facto also deliberating about it. ------------------------------------------------------ Without turning this forum into a discussion list for Indian philosophies, may I point out that adhyavasAya is preceded by the more "purposeful" activity that is called saMkalpa or saMkalpa-vikalpa? What we are talking about here demands that we look at the latter terms rather than adhyavasAya, if for nothing else but the fact that in classical sAMkhya, buddhi-adhyavasAya-sattva go together, while manas-saMkalpa-rajas go together. And with Ferenc, I think Larson has changed his mind, as seen in the Enc. of Indian Philosophies volume. However, isn't Prof. Larson himself on this list? I seem to remember postings from him in the past. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 5 01:32:13 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 18:32:13 -0700 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048514.23782.14628207024672940059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: > > in [GB] 7.4 ... Note the explicit reference to a samyoga between avidyA > > and avyakta. So this is not classically sAMkhyan after all. >To me it is not clear, why the equation ahaMkAra-vAsanA = avidyA or its >connection with the avyakta would be specifically vedAntic; could it not be >sAMkhyan (or even Buddhistic) as well? It is neither, because the same passage proceeds to label this eight-fold prakRti as 'aiSvarI mAyASakti'. I must also point out that Sankara gives avidyA a crucially causal function here, as he labels ahaMkAra (which is avidyAsaMyuktam avyaktam) as pravRtti-bIjam. Compare the sUtrabhAshya where Sankara describes avyakta as avidyAtmaka, bIjaSakti, parameSvara-ASraya, mAyAmaya etc. >However it may be, zaGkara here seems to be clear about the purpose of his >otherwise rather forced reinterpretation: "tanmAtram ucyate na sthUlA, >'bhinnA prakRtir aSTadhA' iti vacanAt", i.e. he has to take the terms in an >unusual sense, because they must be the eight prakRtis. And it is the SK 3 >and the commentarial tradition on it that defines the eight prakRtis as >those tattvas that produce other tattvas according to the saMkhyan story of >creation. Yes, the explanation seems forced, which is why Sankara seems to sound "more sAMkhyan" than the gItA here. However, you have to understand Sankara's comments on chapter 7 as an introduction to what he is going to say in chapter 13. 'bhinnA prakRtir ashTadhA' is the phrase used in the gItA verse 7.4 itself. Now see gItA 13.5, where after the five elements, ahaMkAra, buddhi and avyakta are listed, as parts of the 'field' or kshetra. Clearly, buddhi here stands for mahat. And Sankara is right when he says that the sthUla elements are referred to by the word indriyagocara (in gItA 13.5), so that the specifically listed elements have to be the tanmAtras only. If I remember right, in classical sAMkhya, the tanmAtras are not directly perceived, but they are inferred. Sankara can live with, so to speak, such an inference, but he gives it a non-sAMkhyan, non-buddhist color, by simultaneously introducing ISvara. He proceeds to contast this 'lower prakRti' (the nature of the kshetra) with the 'higher prakRti' of ISvara, which is the nature of the kshetrajna. Thus, Sankara is equating the list of eight in 7.4 with the list of eight in 13.5, and this is driven more by the internal logic of the text he is commenting upon, rather than the sAMkhya kArikAs. Verses 7.4 and 13.5 give different names for the items of the same list, and I see this as Sankara's way of explaining what may be objected to as internally contradictory in the text of the gItA. One must also take into account that according to Sankara's commentary on the gItA, the word sAMkhya means different things in different places. All in all, it seems to me that Sankara is giving his readers new wine (advaita vedAnta) in an old bottle (sAMkhya terminology). Now, leaving Sankara aside, the question is one of the relative date of the kArikAs (i.e. ISvarakRshNa) vis-a-vis the bhagavad gItA. Which is earlier? And here we step into the realm of opinion. After a lot of discussion, we must conclude that we can't say which is the earlier text. Much can be said on both sides, and there can be no real adhyavasAya. Also remember that the sAMkhya kArikAs themselves presume a long prehistory of sAMkhya theorizing. I daresay that some of this pre-classical sAMkhya was more akin to the sAMkhya presumed in the gItA, than to what we know through the sAMkhya kArikAs and commentaries. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From shrao at IA.NET Tue May 4 23:33:58 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 18:33:58 -0500 Subject: Gentoo Studies In-Reply-To: <372F4E58.817D6AD9@online.no> Message-ID: <161227048510.23782.18074460644423630505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 4 May 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Swaminathan Madhuresan schrieb: > > > > > Curious thing about Kak, Frawdley, Talagiri, Rajaram, & their > > schoolers: None has any formal, university degrees in Linguistics > > or Archaeology. > > That is an important prerequisite for their scholarship, and they are > proud of it. They have no faith in Western scholarship such as > philology, linguistics etc, and they prefer to construct their own > version of scholarship. A very valid point; however, while completely disowning any affiliation with Frawley, et al., I still must point out that "Western scholarship" of Indic studies is often as guilty of the same sins, albeit in a slightly different context. For instance, there are elaborate rules of philology, linguistics, etc., in regard to the Vedas which have been around for ages and are part of the classical Vedic tradition, which are conveniently ignored by people propounding "Western scholarship" (which of course includes many Indians as well) of the Vedas, and said people may also be rightly accused of not knowing what they're talking about -- a la Frawley. Then, too, there certainly is more than a slight tendency among proponents of "Western scholarship" to rely excessively on each other's secondary sources and form incestuous intellectual cliques with little outside input. It used to be said that in the days of the British Raj, Western writers who pictured India would primarily deal with the few Europeans there, and the "natives" would rarely figure, except perhaps as servants, villains, or the occasional Maharaja. The very same trend is certainly present to a large degree in recent Indological scholarship (such as with the late Jan Gonda, who had never been to India, but was perfectly content to theorize about it extensively from his armchair). This does lead to absurd conclusions which are treated as classical truths of "Western scholarship" -- for instance: recently, someone quoted an accepted opinion among Indologists that the word/concept of `bhakti' was first propounded by a Buddhist; look at the ashhTAdhyAyI, IV-3-95, where the word is used by Panini, who lived before Buddhism. As such, it would probably be as well to note that incompetence can take various forms, and it is incorrect simply to assume that proponents of a view one does not like are the only incompetents. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Lars Martin Fosse From kekai at JPS.NET Wed May 5 01:58:49 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 18:58:49 -0700 Subject: FWD ;'Earliest writing' found Message-ID: <161227048487.23782.12183197057650454655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Senthuran Nagalingam wrote: > > The Harappan language died out and did not form the > basis of other languages. > > Since the Harappan language is not known, it is not valid to state that it did not form the basis for other languages. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 5 02:02:03 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 19:02:03 -0700 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048516.23782.11177055021658023184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal wrote: .................. >Tradition also ascribes the authorship >of a Tantric text called the 'Yogataravali' (recently sung by Madonna) to >Govindapada- who was the direct teacher of Sri Samkaracarya. In addition, >he is also said to have composed the text 'Rasahrdaya' and is said by >tradition, to have lived a long life by the use of drugs. Well, such traditions are very problematic in their origins. Consider this - Paramahamsa Yogananda (of the Self-Realization Fellowship) writes that one guru known only as Babaji is the same as Govinda Bhagavatpada. And there have been many who have identified themselves as 'Babaji' as he supposedly never dies. Now, anyone who knows some advaita vedAnta should know that physical death is hardly something to be avoided or postponed through the use of drugs or the 'alchemy' of the rasa-siddhas. What weight should one attach to such traditions? Isn't it much more possible that texts like Rasahrdaya were attributed by their authors to the guru of Sankara, in order to lend themselves the aura of orthodoxy and authenticity associated with the Sankaran tradition? As for the hymn on Dakshinamurti, mAnasollAsa, the prapancasAra and its vivaraNa, a discussion of their traditional attributions and critical scholarly skepticism regarding the same would be endless, so I refrain from getting into it. Suffice it to say that the reasons given to doubt the attribution of mAnasollAsa to Suresvara reveal a very poor assessment of what Suresvara says in his undisputed works, namely his vArttikas on the taittirIya and bRhadAraNyaka bhAshyas. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Tue May 4 18:46:27 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 20:46:27 +0200 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048505.23782.13518605721309617177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [in reply to Vidyasankar Sundaresan] Dear Vidyasankar, Unfortunately no publisher in Hungary is willing to publish a book on sAMkhya in English; it was kind of a small miracle that it could appear even in Hungarian. A small part (remarks on SK 1-2) was read at the Xth World Sanskrit Conference in English and would appear in the Proceedings thereof - at least I was told so. Should you be interested, I would be glad to send you a copy. > in [GB] 7.4 ... Note the explicit reference to a samyoga between avidyA > and avyakta. So this is not classically sAMkhyan after all. To me it is not clear, why the equation ahaMkAra-vAsanA = avidyA or its connection with the avyakta would be specifically vedAntic; could it not be sAMkhyan (or even Buddhistic) as well? However it may be, zaGkara here seems to be clear about the purpose of his otherwise rather forced reinterpretation: "tanmAtram ucyate na sthUlA, 'bhinnA prakRtir aSTadhA' iti vacanAt", i.e. he has to take the terms in an unusual sense, because they must be the eight prakRtis. And it is the SK 3 and the commentarial tradition on it that defines the eight prakRtis as those tattvas that produce other tattvas according to the saMkhyan story of creation. > I think that terms that are typically thought to be of "sAMkhyan" origin > have a common prehistory that is shared by other darSanas. I think that it is a very interesting theoretical problem; can it be meaningful at all to say that something in a classical upaniSad is sAMkhya, i.e. not vedAnta? But it seems that it is not absolutely hopeless to answer in the affirmative. When we find the typical sAMkhyan terminology (as known first of all from the kArikAs) mainly in clusters only, it is methodologically plausible to label those passages as sAMkhyan. - But of course any later tradition that takes the upaniSads as zruti may legititimately forget about their sAMkhyan legacy. Yours, Ferenc From kekai at JPS.NET Wed May 5 03:57:14 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 20:57:14 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048491.23782.10711621645719021191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: A good recent example is Said's "orientalism" which paints Western perceptions of lands beyond Greece -from the early Greek thinkers to Henry Kissinger- with the same broad brush and, it would seem, attributes to all one same hidden agenda, thus removing the importance of specific cultural, religious, historical, psychological and personal contexts. > I don't think this is a fair characterization of Said's work. On the whole, it is much better than Schlesinger's "The Disuniting of America," or other works that defend Eurocentrism. I might also suggest St. Clair Drake's "Black Folk - Here and There" for the African-descent perspective. The idea that bias is not still extremely pervasive in "Western academia" is not valid. We are still dealing with a mostly guarded gate society that attempts to dictate how others (non-Westerners) view themselves. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue May 4 19:45:29 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 21:45:29 +0200 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048499.23782.8713679737485643137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan schrieb: > > Curious thing about Kak, Frawdley, Talagiri, Rajaram, & their > schoolers: None has any formal, university degrees in Linguistics > or Archaeology. That is an important prerequisite for their scholarship, and they are proud of it. They have no faith in Western scholarship such as philology, linguistics etc, and they prefer to construct their own version of scholarship. Lars Martin Fosse From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Tue May 4 21:55:00 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Tue, 04 May 99 23:55:00 +0200 Subject: Does the puruSa will? (was: Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048508.23782.2643724014415319339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [In reply to Paolo Magnone] Dear Paolo, I fully agree with your important remark: > First of all, we should carefully distinguish between the theoretical > and historico-philological import of the discussion. On the > theoretical side, we may regard a certain statement as unwarranted > or inconsistent, which must not in any way hinder our recognition, > whether or not such statement has been made, on the historico- > philological side. At the same time I do accept as a principle of analysis, that whenever we have two competing interpretations - philologically both possible - the more coherent and plausible one is to be preferred. > we may have misgivings about the notion of a purpose without an > intelligent subject entertaining it. Still the interpretation of SK 21 is > not as plain as that. I do have misgivings about the notion of a purpose *of an intelligent subject* not willing it. The puruSa is conscious; it has purposes; therefore (I think) he wills. SK 21 is controversial, but it is perfectly clear that the purpose is the purpose of the puruSa only and not of the pradhAna; cf. e.g. puruSArtha eva hetur (31); svArtha iva parArtha ArambhaH(56); tasyArtham apArthakaM carati (60). > the puruSa is described as impartial, neutral, inactive and even > impassive. This being granted, I cannot envisage any more space > for volition as I understand it. A judge [ in Sanskrit, draSTR :-) ] may be impartial, neutral and even impassive and at the same time he may want the criminal to be punished. > adhyavasAya is akin to vyavasAya as used in BhG 2.41 with the > meaning of "resolution" I disagree: the context is significantly different. Here the buddhi *can* be vyavasAyAtmikA, and can be its *opposite*; in the SK it *is* adhyavasAya. Larson's suggestion (buddhi = will) is a bit surprising after his clear analysis of buddhi as involved in the last stage of the process of perception. It is only natural that he later changed his mind - in the Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies he translates SK 23: "Intellect is characterized by reflective discerning". As from SK 5 (prativiSayAdhyavasAyo dRSTaM) it is clear that adhyavasAya is essential to experience/perception, something like conceptualization / understanding / categorizing / grasping would seem more appropriate than resolution / will, as no volition is needed for perception. > it is hardly possible to pursue a discussion such as this through this means. I am disappointed. (In Hungary there are no one to discuss such matters with.) What is the forum you would suggest? Yours, Ferenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 5 11:06:41 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 04:06:41 -0700 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048525.23782.2820784928813375695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Following is the portions from Raghuvamsam. Translations by Dr. R. Steiner, Univ. of Marburg, is well appreciated. Kalidasa is talking of Uraga as the capital of Pandyas. The mention of Malaya (Potikai), Sandal trees, Pearls from Tamraparni, Pandyas, etc., shows this. This Uraga later becomes HAlAsya. N. Ganesan -------------------------------------------------------- Raghuva.m"sa 4.44-50 (literal translation) 4.44. Then he [sc. Raghu], [who] had not to wish for victory [i.e. to whome victory came unsought], went upon the slope of the sea-shore, [which] has been encircled by fruit-bearing betelnut-trees (puuga), to the direction [which] is inhabited by Agastya. 4.45. He [sc. Raghu] seemed to make the Kaaverii suspicious to the husband of the rivers [sc. the ocean] because of the enjoyment of [his] army [being] fragrant with the rut-fluid of the elephants. 4.46. The army of him [who] was desirous of victory [and who] had accomplished a journey, occupied the Malaya mountain?s low land [where] pigeons were terrified in the Marica (v.l.: Mariica, Maariica; black pepper) [forests]. 4.47. The dust of the fruits of the cardamom plants (elaa) [which] were pulverized by the horses, flew up [and] clung to the temples of the elephants in rut [which had] a similar smell. 4.48. The neck-chain of the elephants fixed on the scars of the sandal [trees caused by] the serpent?s coiling round, did not slip down, although [the elephants] tore off the girths. 4.49. The heat [or: the splendour] even of the sun grows dim in the region of the south (dak.si.na); in that very [region] the Paa.n.dyas were not able to resist the heat [or: splendour; courage] of Raghu. 4.50. They [sc. the Paa.n.dyas] threw themselves down to him [and] gave him the best pearls (muktaa) of the great ocean [which] comes together with the Taamrapar.nii, accumulated as if it were their own glory. Raghuva.m"sa 6.59-62 (literal translation) 6.59. Then the (female) door-keeper came to the godlike leader of the city (pura) called Uraga (v.l.: Uruga) (uraga = "serpent; naaga") [and] spoke to the princess of the Bhojas [who] has been previously instructed with [the words]: "O [you who has] eyes like a Cakora [bird], look at here!" 6.60. "This Paa.n.dya [king], on [whose] shoulders is placed a necklace hanging down [from it and] the redness of [whose] body has been prepared by sandal, appears like the king of the mountains [whose] peaks are reddened by the morning sunshine [and who] has been furnished with water falls flowing out. 6.61. Agastya, the subduer of the great mountain Vindhya, [by whom] the king of the rivers [sc. the ocean] was completely drunk up and emitted, became by affection a Sausnaatika [i.e. someone who asks another whether an ablution has been auspicious or successfully performed] for him [sc. the Paa.n.dya] [whose] body was wet with the bathing [at the end] of the horse sacrifice (a"svamedha). 6.62. In former times the proud ruler of La"nkaa, fearing the destruction of Janasthaana, formed an alliance with him [sc. the Paa.n.dya] [who] had obtained a missile from Hara [which] was difficult to be obtained (or: hard to be overcome), [and then] set out for the victory over the world of Indra." Regards, Roland Steiner _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 5 11:37:42 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 04:37:42 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048528.23782.16980872606088274474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >someone quoted an accepted opinion among Indologists that the word/concept >of `bhakti' was first propounded by a Buddhist; look >at the ashhTAdhyAyI, IV-3-95, where the word is used >by Panini, who lived before Buddhism. Har Dayal, Bodhisattva doctrine in Sanskrit says that bhatti first comes in Theragatha; This, info being from 1930s, may not be the 'accepted opinion' today. Also, with no critical edition for ashtadhyayi available , is that section in the original or in a later layer? Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 5 13:17:27 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 06:17:27 -0700 Subject: Karnataka, Kannada Message-ID: <161227048541.23782.15859115405999402257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, How is Kannada and Karnataka derived? Thanks in advance, SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 5 14:06:02 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 07:06:02 -0700 Subject: Cheran, Chozhan, Pandyan Message-ID: <161227048543.23782.9917094200285378920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The ancient Tamil Kings' names, (cEran2, cOzan2, pANTiyan) has been a puzzle. These dynasties appear in Sangam texts. 1. cEran2: Can this come from "caaral"; 'malaic cAral' is mountain slopes; cEran2 is many times called as "cEralan2" in sangam texts. Kerala is the Western slopes of the Western Ghat mountain range except for the ShenkOTTah and Palghat passes. So, 'caaral' (slope) -> 'cEralan' (man/king of the mountain slopes)?? 2. cOzan2: Can this come from "cOlai" (grove, flower garden); Note that Chola country is fed by kAviri (Expander/Nourisher (viri) of grove/garden(kA)). Also, Cholas' sport another title 'vaLavan2', the King/man of fertile lands. So, `cOlai' (grove/garden) -> 'cOzan' (man/king whose land is fertile gardens/groves)?? 3. pANTiyan2: In the Tamil tradition, among the three lines, PANDyas are considered the oldest; They are the protectors of Tamil sangam, etc., 'paNDu' means ancient; paNDaiyar = ancient people. So, 'paNDu' (ancient) -> paNDaiyar (ancient people) -> PANDiyan?? Thanks for any thoughts on this; Appreciations if Thiru T. V. Gopalaiyar's comments can be obtained from Pondicheri. Regards, SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Wed May 5 06:12:10 1999 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 07:12:10 +0100 Subject: Trilingual inscriptions from Lanka Message-ID: <161227048519.23782.2998065910935973148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran >I was born and raised in Madras and am familiar with the Tamil world view. >They would respect the Buddhists for what they are, but any attempt to >belittle their faith would make them go ballistic. And those SinhAlese I've >met and quite a few of them were Buddhist bhikshus, don't think much of the >religion of the Tamils. So I definitely don't subscribe to the "all was well >until ?", theory. There is a difference between that and a willingness to go out and kill one another. After all in 1950 there had been very little, if any, killing on communal lines for at least 150 years and probably much longer. But I agree that there were underlying problems of attitude (on both sides). >Nobody is ignoring the difficulties. Ofcourse, the SinhAlese wanted their >language as the main language of the land. Legitimate objective? There is no >way that the Tamils would give up their language. In the first place they >have great pride in their language and literature. Secondly its religious >implications are too acute, for them to just let go of it. I do not hink that the status of the Tamil language was the primary problem _at that time_. Rather it was the fact that the removal of English as the language of administration also removed the built-in advantage of the Tamils. >One thing to be understood is that though they would coexist together >comfortably in most circumstances, both peoples pride themselves on their >own culture and looked down on the other. Yes, I agree. >To offer worship to the Gods means nothing. Buddhism wasn't born in the land >and didn't even come during the life of the Compassionate One. It came >through Ashoka and was assimilated with the local culture of the land. How >much effect it had on the local practices, needs deeper analysis - for eg : >it doesn't seem to have affected the culinary habits of the Sinhalese - even >the bhikshus are meat eaters. Quite true. But it is equally true to say that 'Hinduism' wasn't born in the land and may well have arrived after Buddhism and Jainism. Certainly much of it did. (I don't of course doubt for a moment that much Tamil and Sinhala religious practice is indigenous and long antedates the arrival of both Hinduism and Buddhism.) >And contrary to all the beliefs that Buddhism and Jainism held great sway in >Tamil Nadu in the past (again the reason as mentioned above - and animals >are sacrificed to the Gods even today in Tamil Nadu), theistic worship seems >to have always been in vogue with the Tamils. It is difficult to know whether or not one or more of Buddhism, Jainism, Ajiivikas and others was ever dominent. My guess is that it probably varied greatly at different times and places within the Tamil country. I don't doubt that the ordinary religious practice always continued. The kind of theism we see later is surely an introduction from north India. >And can one ignore the >>intensity of dislike in the works of the bhakti saints against the nAstikas? No, one can't. But I wonder how influential it was in general ? More to the point, it is strong evidence that there was something there to attack. Had it been an insignificant minority why would they have bothered ? >That there would not have been a friction due to this divergence in world >view, is not plausible. Of course, there was friction and sometimes conflict. Whenever extemists of any stripe get political influence, there will be problems. But that doen't mean there are problems all the time. >And also observe the political influence of the Buddhist priesthood in >Lanka. 'Julius' Jayawardhane converted to Buddhism to take on the top job in >Lanka. These two statements do not appear to be connected. >>Anyone who has spent time on the ground in the island will know that there >>are all sorts of religious activities in which both Sinhalese and Tamils >>participate together. > >Spent time when? Fifteen years back? Yes, I was referrring to that sort of time. >Currently, Tamil population in Sinhalese areas is miniscule. I do not know the current situation, but offhand this seems surprising. As I recall it, the majority of the Tamil population was in the so-called Sinhalese areas. Are you sure that this is not an exaggeration ? >Religious activities where both the Tamils and the Sinhalese participle >together - in Lanka? The obvious examples are Adam's Peak and Kataragama. MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From jpstephen at HOME.COM Wed May 5 11:52:19 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 07:52:19 -0400 Subject: An interesting site on Indian archaeology Message-ID: <161227048535.23782.8547832649525973696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I found a summation of Indian archaeology and reference materials at http://www.picatype.com/dig/d0aa01.htm , a well made site with quite a bit of information. Sujatha From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Wed May 5 02:23:40 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 07:53:40 +0530 Subject: Gentoo Studies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048518.23782.8055610168866757755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Good idea ! So, if one classifies the study of Indology, not as per subject matter, but as per the racial origins of the investigators, then - 22nd century Oxford dictionary - " GENTOO Studies - The study of India conducted by Europeans, since Gentoo is an Anglo-Indian and Portuguese word for pagan Indians, being a corruption of proper English `Gentile'." " HINDOO (or Hindu) Studies - The study of India conducted by Arabs, since Hindu is a corruption of the Arabic `Hindwi'." So - World Journal of Hindu Studies : Journal published by Arabs on India (!). Also - " ARYA Studies - Indology conducted by Aryans (ie. Indo-Aryans, not the `Mleccha' Europeans) in Sanskrit and on Sanskrit." " DASYOO Studies - The study of Sudras and Dravidians conducted by Aryas." " SUDROLOGY & DRAVIDOLOGY - The study by Dravidians and other Sudras on Sudra culture." What would one call the study of Aryans conducted by Dravidians ? From jpstephen at HOME.COM Wed May 5 12:19:22 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 08:19:22 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit on the Internet Message-ID: <161227048537.23782.8574036096950598743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For a collection of Sanskrit on the Internet: ftp://jaguar.cs.utah.edu/private/sanskrit/sanskrit.html Sujatha From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 5 16:12:01 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 09:12:01 -0700 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048549.23782.1675995232423509277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the mistake. Normally I check before I quote anyone's name. This time I missed, sorry. As for the conclusions, I stand by them. Recently Dr. Indira Peterson also told me that uraga refers to hAlAsya and it appears Kalidasa knew Southern traditions. Thanks to Dr. Steiner again whose translation is excellent enough for my purposes. I wanted to find what Kalidasa when I first read S. Krishnasamy Aiyangar (1924) writing about uragapura is the hAlAsya and it is the argaru in the Periplus. Regards, N. Ganesan --------------------------------------------------------------- I was surprised to read my translation of portions from the Raghuva.m"sa here in the List. It was meant for private use and was passed on without my knowledge. Please note that it was a quick, literal and unpolished piece of work done as a favour at Mr Ganesan's request. It was a personal matter for me, not meant for the List. The conclusion which Mr Ganesan drew from my translation is his own, viz.: > Kalidasa is talking of Uraga as the capital of Pandyas. The mention > of Malaya (Potikai), Sandal trees, Pearls from Tamraparni, Pandyas, > etc., shows this. This Uraga later becomes HAlAsya. Yours sincerely, Roland Steiner _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Wed May 5 16:14:42 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 09:14:42 -0700 Subject: Narayana's Color Message-ID: <161227048551.23782.13899347705972929004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Does the etymology of the word "krsna" [for all entities associated with the sense of darkness including the appellation of Lord Krishna] take it for granted that it is derived from the Dravidian root "kar", "kAr" etc., for black? Regards, Chandra --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Dear Indologists, > > Vishnu sahasranamam tells us that viSNu is 'megha varNam zubhAGgam' > and 'megha zyAmam'. Are there any other places in the epics, > R. and MBh. that say viSNu nArAyana is black or dark in complexion? > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From shrao at IA.NET Wed May 5 15:00:32 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 10:00:32 -0500 Subject: Gentoo Studies In-Reply-To: <19990505113743.52109.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048545.23782.13643055047764007106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 5 May 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > >someone quoted an accepted opinion among Indologists that the word/concept > >of `bhakti' was first propounded by a Buddhist; look > >at the ashhTAdhyAyI, IV-3-95, where the word is used > >by Panini, who lived before Buddhism. > > Har Dayal, Bodhisattva doctrine in Sanskrit says that bhatti > first comes in Theragatha; This, info being from 1930s, > may not be the 'accepted opinion' today. Also, with no > critical edition for ashtadhyayi available , is that section in > the original or in a later layer? A question that doubtless cuts both ways; anyway, it is not critical to the issue, since the word occurs in the Black Yajur Veda also. Regards, Shrisha Rao > N. Ganesan From shrao at IA.NET Wed May 5 15:03:02 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 10:03:02 -0500 Subject: Gentoo Studies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048547.23782.8302098389020727731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 5 May 1999, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: > Why did S.K. Chatterji quote Gonda's work, if it wasn't relevant? I would be very hesitant to base my position on the claim that S.K. Chatterjee, or anyone else for that matter, never made a mistake. This was in any case not a direct argument for or against the correctness of Gonda's work, but only a comment on the approach he took. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Ruth Schmidt From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed May 5 09:37:28 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 11:37:28 +0200 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048521.23782.1859570004446169690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > --- Lars Martin Fosse schrieb: > > That is an important prerequisite for their scholarship, and they are > > proud of it. They have no faith in Western scholarship such as > > philology, linguistics etc, and they prefer to construct their own > > version of scholarship. > > Is it euphemistically called `Indic paradigms of knowledge > and scholarship'? > I can't say that I have that particular expression, but here is a quote from Rajaram, published some time ago in a letter to the Organiser: Western Indology treated Vedic India as a dead civilization such as Egypt and Babylon, and tried to reconstruct the whole thing from scratch. This ignored a large body of existing literary and cultural traditions continuing to the present. The result of this fallacious approach was fantasies like the Aryan Invasion Theory and the idea that the Harappan language and script were 'proto-Dravidian', an imaginary language. The correct approach is to relate archaeological discoveries to Indian literature and tradition. This gives an alternative approach, combining Indian tradition and modern science, which several of us including Dr. Jha, David Frawley, K. D. Sethna ad others have been pursuing. The 'establishment' scholars, however, seem stuck in the old groove following Western Indology, which is a colonial-missionary construct with no scientific or historical basis. As we see, he here gives a prescription for "correct" scholarly work in the field. It excludes comparative material from other languages and cultures of Antiquity and concentrates upon what you can dig out of Indian earth and ancient scripture. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed May 5 09:53:34 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 11:53:34 +0200 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048523.23782.9099013584827197100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shrisha Rao wrote: > On Tue, 4 May 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > Swaminathan Madhuresan schrieb: > > > > > > > > Curious thing about Kak, Frawdley, Talagiri, Rajaram, & their > > > schoolers: None has any formal, university degrees in Linguistics > > > or Archaeology. > > > > That is an important prerequisite for their scholarship, and they are > > proud of it. They have no faith in Western scholarship such as > > philology, linguistics etc, and they prefer to construct their own > > version of scholarship. > > A very valid point; however, while completely disowning any affiliation > with Frawley, et al., I still must point out that "Western scholarship" of > Indic studies is often as guilty of the same sins, albeit in a slightly > different context. Oh, yes indeed, and don't I know it! :-) My work with the writings of Hindutva scholars has shown me that many of the sins they commit - and which stand out glaringly because they commit them in contexts where Westerners don't - many of these sins are committed just as well by Western scholars. E.g. everybody argues ex nihilo when it suits their purposes. > Then, too, there certainly is more than a slight tendency among proponents > of "Western scholarship" to rely excessively on each other's secondary > sources and form incestuous intellectual cliques with little outside > input. >?From what I hear, Indian scholars in India tend to spend most of their time reading texts, rather than study secondary literature. I believe it is the other way around in the West. But in defence of Western scholars, I would like to point out that the university system forces them to publish far more literature that is really needed. If they were to cut their production in half while doubling the quality, everybody would be better served. As for trendyness, I believe this has always been the case one way or the other, in all fields of scholarship. It is an evil, but I suspect that it is unavoidable. > The very same trend is certainly > present to a large degree in recent Indological scholarship (such as with > the late Jan Gonda, who had never been to India, but was perfectly content > to theorize about it extensively from his armchair). The India that Gonda studied had been dead for at least a 1000 years. For many Western scholars, the study of Sanskrit resembles the study of Greek and Latin, both of which cultures that are comfortably out of the way and therefore a place where your soul can rest while your mind works. > As such, it would probably be as well to note that incompetence can take > various forms, and it is incorrect simply to assume that proponents of a > view one does not like are the only incompetents. Again, I concur. But I am afraid that even within Western academia (as indeed elsewhere), followers of different trends tend to regard each other as quite worthless. It seems to be in the nature of things. :-) Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 5 19:15:33 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 12:15:33 -0700 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048554.23782.16719079164792899018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc writes : >I do have misgivings about the notion of a purpose *of an intelligent >subject* not willing it. The puruSa is >conscious; it has purposes; >therefore (I think) he wills. Are you right about this? The popular theory traces the origins of SAmkhya to the analogy using the two birds in MundAka Upanishad. One bird which enjoys the world and the other, the mute spectator silently observing the first bird without being affected by the experience of the first bird. The Purusha though conscious is just the witness. It just observes the changes of prakriti. The PrAkriti separate from the Purusha, undergoes change only due to its proximity to the Purusha. The Purusha does not will the change. The purpose or will, is that of PrAkriti, whose sole reason for evolution is for the sake of the enjoyment of Purusha. But PrAkriti is not capable of action by itself. It is a non conscious entity. As mentioned before it evolves only due to the light shed on it by the Purusha. But that doesn't in anyway mean that Purusha willed the evolution of PrAkriti. All brAhmanical schools, accept that the Self is eternal. By eternal, they also accept that it is changeless. But they are also eager to reconcile the eternal changeless Self with day to day individual experience, which is full of change. And thus the effort by Ishwara Krishna to split the world into changeless Souls and evolving matter. But there's nothing known in human experience which is beyond change. So Ishware Krishna makes the Self devoid of all qualities - even bliss. But he has to concede consciousness to the Self, as he has to equate it with the normal self. The four truths of the SAmkhya are quite similar to the Four Noble Truths of the Buddha. Liberation is in empirical terms - the cessation of desire. To make the Purusha desire, would defeat all purpose. To reconcile the changeless Self with the everchanging world has long been the greatest puzzle to the Indian mind. Samkhya-Yoga try to evolve their metaphysics and psychology using a changeless Self and changing matter. The Advaita VedAnta denies all change and asserts only the existence of a changeless Being. The NyAya-Vaiseshika philosophers succumbing to the pressure of logic even go to the extent of making the Self unconscious. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Wed May 5 11:48:05 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 12:48:05 +0100 Subject: Gentoo Studies In-Reply-To: <19990505113743.52109.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048533.23782.1105967519050954293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought that the following passage from Wendy Doniger's book The Implied Spider might be worth quoting in this context: We don't all have to do the same thing or do it in the same way; we can stand on the shoulders of giants, or as the case may be, pygmies, and they can stand on ours. From each her own. My argument here is for the academy, for multicultural, multidisciplinarian approaches. I would hope that the respect for "difference" (and pluralism, and diversity) that prevails in cultural studies would extend to the methodologies within the discipline of the history of religions, and indeed within the academy at large ... I challenge the trend of limiting those who study any group to those within the group -- women studying women, Jews studying Jews -- a trend which, if followed slavishly, would automatically eliminate not only my tiny, precious world of cross-cultural comparison but the more general humanism of which it is a part ... When did scholarship cease to be a collective enterprise? When did interdisciplinary values cease to apply to comparative studies? When did the `uni' in `university' come to refer to ideology? John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Wed May 5 12:24:21 1999 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 13:24:21 +0100 Subject: Gentoo Studies In-Reply-To: <3730151E.8BB96D09@online.no> Message-ID: <161227048527.23782.13427049165736268186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >> The very same trend is certainly >> present to a large degree in recent Indological scholarship (such as with >> the late Jan Gonda, who had never been to India, but was perfectly content >> to theorize about it extensively from his armchair). > Why did S.K. Chatterji quote Gonda's work, if it wasn't relevant? With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Wed May 5 11:39:54 1999 From: Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 13:39:54 +0200 Subject: uraga and AlavAy In-Reply-To: <19990505110642.40193.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048531.23782.5099746319613273184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I was surprised to read my translation of portions from the Raghuva.m"sa here in the List. It was meant for private use and was passed on without my knowledge. Please note that it was a quick, literal and unpolished piece of work done as a favour at Mr Ganesan's request. It was a personal matter for me, not meant for the List. The conclusion which Mr Ganesan drew from my translation is his own, viz.: > Kalidasa is talking of Uraga as the capital of Pandyas. The mention > of Malaya (Potikai), Sandal trees, Pearls from Tamraparni, Pandyas, > etc., shows this. This Uraga later becomes HAlAsya. Yours sincerely, Roland Steiner From lpatton at EMORY.EDU Wed May 5 19:03:26 1999 From: lpatton at EMORY.EDU (Laurie Patton) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 15:03:26 -0400 Subject: Sad news Message-ID: <161227048552.23782.2708518343527274435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At the request of Prof Martha Selby I am passing this very sad news onto all of you. Our field has lost a jewel. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Laurie L. Patton + Associate Professor, Dept. of Religion + Emory University + Atlanta, GA 30322 + PH: 404-727-5177 + FAX: 404-727-7597 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Sir/Madam, We regret to inform you that Dr. S.S. Janaki, Former Director of Kuppuswami Sastri Research Institute, Chennai - 600 004 passed away on Tuesday,the 4th May, 1999 at 9.30 A.M. Kindly pass on this message to all those who know Dr. Janaki and were associated with KSRI. Sincerely, G.Mishra On behalf of KSRI, Chennai-4 From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 5 22:41:07 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 15:41:07 -0700 Subject: Info on BodhicAryavatAra Message-ID: <161227048558.23782.286357384779663952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody have information on the quality of the translations of ShAnti Deva's BodhicAryavatAra? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 5 22:52:42 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 15:52:42 -0700 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048560.23782.2861733463227053153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: >I think that it is a very interesting theoretical problem; can it be >meaningful at all to say that something in a classical upaniSad is sAMkhya, >i.e. not vedAnta? But it seems that it is not absolutely hopeless to answer >in the affirmative. When we find the typical sAMkhyan terminology (as known >first of all from the kArikAs) mainly in clusters only, it is >methodologically plausible to label those passages as sAMkhyan. - But of >course any later tradition that takes the upaniSads as zruti may >legititimately forget about their sAMkhyan legacy. Any school of classical vedAnta presumes and subsumes a lot of what is called sAMkhya. It is not useful to set the terms of a theoretical discussion in terms of "sAMKhya, not vedAnta". In any case, by the time of Sankara, the question was not one of the sAMkhyan legacy of upanishads, but one of the upanishadic legacy of classical sAMkhya. One major argument of Sankara's brahmasUtra bhAshya is that attempts by sAMkhyan thinkers to find a mention of kapila in the upanishads were baseless. So also for finding upanishadic sanction for pradhAna-kAraNa-vAda. This argument could not have been directed against purely imaginary opponents. We may safely conclude that there were post-ISvarakRshNa sAMkhya philosophers, who claimed an upanishadic legacy for sAMkhya thought. It was not until the time of vijnAnabhikshu, some three or four centuries ago, that a different kind of argument was offered regarding the relationship of the upanishads to sAMkhya. Why? Let us leave aside the notion of the upanishads as Sruti. After all, we must remember that classical sAMkhya and classical advaita vedAnta were preceded by a period of mImAMsA, which granted only arthavAda status to the upanishads. For modern analytical scholarly purposes, when talking of the occurrence of sAMkhyan terminology in clusters in the upanishads, the question is one of relative dates. We find what may be called "sAMkhyan terminology" in early texts like kaTha and SvetASvatara, and for that matter, even in some portions of the bRhadAraNyaka. To say that sAMkhyan terms are known first of all from the kArikAs, one has to show that the kArikAs precede these upanishads in time. This is plainly not so. It is therefore useful, as done by Larson and Bhattacharya (Enc. of Indian Philosophies), to distinguish between pre-kArikA sAMkhya and kArikA-kaumudi sAMkhya. It is even more useful to remember that different texts say different things about tanmAtras, manas, buddhi, avyakta etc., so that it is not good to view these terms as solely sAMkhyan in origin. Rather, these are "universal" terms, much like "element", "clone" etc. The IBM PC-clone is a very different creature from the clone of Dolly, the sheep. When a physicist talks of an elementary particle, he is not referring to atoms, but when a chemist says element, he is talking of atoms. The physicist and the chemist understand each other; it is all confusing only to a non-scientist outsider listening in. And neither science excludes the other completely. A similar situation obtains in old Indian philosophical schools. As regards the sAMkhya found in bhagavad gItA and elsewhere in the mahAbhArata, the introduction given by van Buitenen in his gItA translation is essential reading. van Buitenen's translation of the book of the bhagavad gItA was scheduled to be part of the fourth volume of his mahAbhArata translation, but it was published separately as a paperback, twenty years ago. He makes excellent points, in his usual, exemplary way. By the way, van Buitenen has made a mistake in verse 13.5, when he refers only to "ten senses" in his translation and corresponding footnote. The original is clear - daSaikam, meaning eleven, the extra one being manas, i.e. antaHkaraNa. Note also that there was a difference of opinion within sAMkhya schools whether the total number should be eleven or thirteen. The kArikAs opt for thirteen, but vindhyavAsin, a pre-ISvarakRshNa thinker, is said to have opted for eleven. The brahmasUtras also mention only eleven. In this context, Sankara takes care to say about manas, citta, buddhi and ahaMkAra - etat sarvam mana eva. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 6 00:30:14 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 05 May 99 17:30:14 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit dance and drama Message-ID: <161227048563.23782.5942810846509857923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps good time to ask. Jan Gonda, called as one of the greatest living scholars of Veda in his last years, served as guide for this work. Indu Shekhar, Sanskrit drama: its origin and decline, E.J.Brill, 1960 (2nd ed., Delhi, 1977) A must reading for anyone interested in Indian dance and drama. This work places so much importance to Dravidian contributions in the development Indic dance and drama. I wish either Sekhar from Kerala or Gonda knew Tamil; it would have been even more helpful. How do Sanskritists rate this work? Sincerely, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Thu May 6 03:07:35 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 03:07:35 +0000 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227048556.23782.4093678771693607994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:33:58 -0500 > From: Shrisha Rao > On Tue, 4 May 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > That is an important prerequisite for their scholarship, and they > > are proud of it. They have no faith in Western scholarship such as > > philology, linguistics etc, and they prefer to construct their own > > version of scholarship. > > [...] > > Then, too, there certainly is more than a slight tendency among > proponents of "Western scholarship" to rely excessively on each > other's secondary sources and form incestuous intellectual cliques > with little outside input. It used to be said that in the days of the > British Raj, Western writers who pictured India would primarily deal > with the few Europeans there, and the "natives" would rarely figure, > except perhaps as servants, villains, or the occasional Maharaja. The > very same trend is certainly present to a large degree in recent > Indological scholarship (such as with the late Jan Gonda, who had > never been to India, but was perfectly content to theorize about it > extensively from his armchair). I do not know how many writings of Gonda you have read, but he was precisely one of those researchers who did not deal with sundry Englishmen and other Europeans, nor maharajas and 'native villains'. He went straight to the Vedas and all the other texts he worked on. He also had a firm grounding in Greek, Latin and Avestan, which made him well equipped to make pronouncements on, e.g., 'Aryan' matters. [As an aside: I wonder whether those notorious proponents of the 'Indic paradigms of knowledge and scholarship', whose names keep popping up in messages on this list (and are they not an 'incestuous intellectual clique'?), are anywhere nearly as qualified as Gonda was. His qualifications may not be an absolute guarantee against errors --for what could be an absolute one?--, but they are very significant.] As for the armchair: when one works on philological material from the farthest edge of history, or even from the middle ages, why not sit comfortably? :-) Does it matter whether the armchair is in Utrecht, Poona, or anywhere else? I am afraid that I do not understand this criticism of Gonda. Regards, RZ > Shrisha Rao From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 6 10:58:12 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 03:58:12 -0700 Subject: Karnataka, Kannada Message-ID: <161227048567.23782.13205975337047698901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I submit that Both the words, KannaDa and KarnATaka can be traced to 'kannADu', cognate with the Tamil, kal nADu. By simple sandhi rules, paralleling Tamil grammar, (eg., val + neRi = van2n2eRi; nal + naTai = nan2n2aTai) kal + nAdu -> kannADu. KarnATaka is in the Deccan plateau where boulders, hills, mountains are plenty. Hence, kannADu (kal nADu) is 'Land of boulders, hilly tracts'. K. A. Nilakanta Sastri's books have references to inscriptions from Chola and Pandya times talking of 'kannATTu arasar' (kings of kannADu); KarnaTaka inscriptions have 'kannADu'. Note that Hassan district is 'malenADu', cognate with ta. 'malai nADu' (mountainous land). kalnADu gets sanskritized as karnATaka. The l-r changes are universal and esp. exist for Dravidian to Sanskrit changes. (Eg., cittambalam -> citambaram). This 'kalnADu -> karnATaka' must have happened very early. Even CilappatikAram has usages like karunATar (a Tamil form for karnADigas); Kamban uses 'karunaTar' in his epic. In sangam tamil texts, chieftains of the 'Land of mountains' esp. in the kuRinji landscape poems, are referred routinely as 'kal nADan' (Man of the mountainous lands). I think the KuRinji landscape was a proud possession and hence, the land was named as 'kal nADu' (=kannADu). The language of the kannAdu came to be known as kannaDa. Dr. Zydenbos, is there anything for or against this theory? What do KannaDa scholars write about the names, KannaDa and KarnATaka? Regards, N. Ganesan PS: Among 100s of instances, I only cite a few quotes from sangam texts on 'kal nADu' (=kannADu) and 'kal nADan'. Here kannADu refers to places within today's Tamil Nadu, however the idea in kannaDa and karnATaka are the same, I think. 1) kuraGku oruGku irukkum peruG *kal nATan2* 2) peruG *kal nATa* nI nayantOL kaN E 3) peruG *kal nATan2* kENmai in2iyE (aka.) 4) peruG *kal nATa* piriti Ayin2 5) peruG *kal malai nATan2* pENi varin2E 6) tin2ai kiLi kaTiyum peruG *kal nATan2* 7) ciRu veL aruvi peruG *kal nATan2ai* 8) viN tOy *kal nATan2* (kali.) 9) perug *kal vaippin2 nATu* kizavOyE (puRam.) 10) kazi uppu mukantu *kal nATu* mukakum 11) tuJcu kaLiRu eTuppum tam peruG *kal naTTu* E (naR.) 12) ollen2a izitarum aruvi nin2 *kal uTai nATTu* cellal teyyO (aiGkuRu.) 13) peruG *kal nal nATTu* umaN olikkut (puRa.) 14) *kal uTai nal nATTu* puL in2am (aiG.) 15) pEr an2pin2aiyE, peruG *kal naaTa* 16) *kal kezu nATan2* kENmai 17) tin2ai piTi uNNum peruG *kal nATa* and so on. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu May 6 12:42:03 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 05:42:03 -0700 Subject: Karnataka, Kannada Message-ID: <161227048575.23782.4142096270053248732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The 'kuRinci' landscape in Sangam texts and its relationship to> naming places has been dealt with reference to Poona by Dr. S. Palaniappan before. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 > Subject: Re: Translations of Tamil names into Sanskrit > > In a message dated 97-04-28 07:36:34 EDT, you write: > > << Indeed I come from Pu.yapattana or Pu.nyanagarii (= Pune, pu.ne in > Marathi). I don't know how old this usage is, but it is commonly seen not > only in modern Sanskrit publications from Pune, but often also in Marathi. > The old pre-urbanization name of this place was punava.dii. > >> > This is very very interesting. In an article entitled, "Etymology of > Place-Names PaTTi-HaTTi", in Annals of Bhandarkar Oriental Research > Institute, S.B. Joshi gives a Dravidian origin for words like, paTTi, > paTTaNa, haTTi, pADa, vADa, vADi, etc. > > As for the first portion, 'puna', DED 3558 lists " puJca" Tamil 'punam' > upland > fit for dry cultivation; 'punakkATu' shifting cultivation on the hills; > 'puncey' land fit for dry cultivation only, dry crop; Malayalam 'punam' a > jungle, chiefly highland overrun with underwood and capable of irregular > cultivation; 'punakkaNTam' as hill-tract; 'puJca' dry crop; 'puJca-kkaNTam' > field under irrigation, yielding even three harvests. Kannada 'puNaji' > dust-like dry soil in which a kind of paddy is grown. Tulu 'puJca-kaNDa a > very good rice-field. Telugu 'punja' land cultivated without artificial > irrigation, high land." > > In Classical Tamil literature one of the important landscape division is > the > mountain/hill region (kuRinci) where the girls (heroines) are depicted as > going to 'punam' or millet-fields to protect them from birds like parrots > that would otherwise eat the grains. This 'punam' is the place where the > hero > meets the heroine and falls in love in the hill-country. > > Thus the old name for 'Pune' seems to have meant 'village of uncultivated > fields in the hills'. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From rbunker at FRANKLIN.LISCO.COM Thu May 6 13:39:15 1999 From: rbunker at FRANKLIN.LISCO.COM (Ralph Bunker) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 06:39:15 -0700 Subject: ASR Publications In-Reply-To: <008101beaf2e$b1fa9b60$f6bfc5cb@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <161227048572.23782.662994211243738787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I received two messages with subject ASR Publications. The second one had an attachment called HAPPY99.EXE. This is what my virus checker had to say about it. I would run it if I were you. Infected object c:\Eudora\Attach\HAPPY99.EXE. Happy99 trojan Cannot verify this virus. From rbunker at FRANKLIN.LISCO.COM Thu May 6 16:35:28 1999 From: rbunker at FRANKLIN.LISCO.COM (Ralph Bunker) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 09:35:28 -0700 Subject: ASR Publications In-Reply-To: <199905061140.GAA18922@franklin.lisco.net> Message-ID: <161227048577.23782.2154935425003237608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Make that I would NOT run it if I were you. At 06:39 AM 5/6/99 -0700, you wrote: >I received two messages with subject ASR Publications. The second one had >an attachment called HAPPY99.EXE. This is what my virus checker had to say >about it. I would run it if I were you. > > Infected object c:\Eudora\Attach\HAPPY99.EXE. > Happy99 trojan > Cannot verify this virus. > From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Wed May 5 23:38:39 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 09:38:39 +1000 Subject: Sanskrit to French dictionary Message-ID: <161227048562.23782.14720956507470901194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The dictionary is openable on a Macintosh but maybe only the PDF file and then you must have Adobe Acrobat Reader to view it. It is freely downloadable from: http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html Printing the dictionary may be an answer, I did a trial page and it came out well. >I visited your indology page and admired it. The openning page is gorgeous. >The dictionary seems to be very interesting and useful, handier than >Renou-Tschoupak. I am sure the new sanskrit scholars will make good use of >it. However, I must tell you that I did not succeed to open it on my >Macintosh. It opened on a PC but the impression was very faint, so the >reading was laborious. I guess it is a question of the computer know-how >of which my level is very low. Thanks for making this work available on the >web. Greetings. A. Nayak From dbgray62 at HOME.COM Thu May 6 16:07:50 1999 From: dbgray62 at HOME.COM (DAVID GRAY) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 12:07:50 -0400 Subject: ASR Publications Message-ID: <161227048580.23782.13371994469578324632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indeed, do not open it! Evidently it only infects windows computers, not MACs. The following is what Symantec's AVCenter has to say about the virus: Happy99.Worm VirusName: Happy99.Worm Aliases: Trojan.Happy99, I-Worm.Happy Likelihood: Common Region Reported: World Wide Characteristics: Trojan Horse, Worm Description: This is a worm program, NOT a virus. This program has reportedly been received through email spamming and USENET newsgroup posting. The file is usually named HAPPY99.EXE in the email or article attachment. When being executed, the program also opens a window entitled "Happy New Year 1999 !!" showing a firework display to disguise its other actions. The program copies itself as SKA.EXE and extracts a DLL that it carries as SKA.DLL into WINDOWS\SYSTEM directory. It also modifies WSOCK32.DLL in WINDOWS\SYSTEM directory and copies the original WSOCK32.DLL into WSOCK32.SKA. WSOCK32.DLL handles internet-connectivity in Windows 95 and 98. The modification to WSOCK32.DLL allows the worm routine to be triggered when a connect or send activity is detected. When such online activity occurs, the modified code loads the worm's SKA.DLL. This SKA.DLL creates a new email or a new article with UUENCODED HAPPY99.EXE inserted into the email or article. It then sends this email or posts this article. If WSOCK32.DLL is in use when the worm tries to modify it (i.e. a user is online), the worm adds a registry entry: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunOnce=SKA.EXE The registry entry loads the worm the next time Windows start. Removing the worm manually: 1.delete WINDOWS\SYSTEM\SKA.EXE 2.delete WINDOWS\SYSTEM\SKA.DLL 3.in WINDOWS\SYSTEM\ directory, rename WSOCK32.DLL to WSOCK32.BAK 4.in WINDOWS\SYSTEM\ directory, rename WSOCK32.SKA to WSOCK32.DLL 5.delete the downloaded file, usually named HAPPY99.EXE Windows prevents you to do step #3 and #4 above if the machine is still connected to the Internet. The file "windows\system\wsock32.dll" is used whenever the machine is connected to Internet (i.e. through dial-up or LAN connection). If you are using dial-up connection (i.e. America Online), you need to do the following: 1.terminate internet connection 2.delete WINDOWS\SYSTEM\SKA.EXE 3.delete WINDOWS\SYSTEM\SKA.DLL 4.in WINDOWS\SYSTEM\ directory, rename WSOCK32.DLL to WSOCK32.BAK 5.in WINDOWS\SYSTEM\ directory, rename WSOCK32.SKA to WSOCK32.DLL 6.delete the downloaded file, usually named HAPPY99.EXE If you are connected to Internet through LAN (i.e. in the office or cable modem), you need to do the following: 1.From the Start menu, select shutdown-restart in MS DOS mode 2.type CD \windows\system when DOS prompt (C:\)appears 3.type RENAME WSOCK32.DLL WSOCK32.BAK 4.type RENAME WSOCK32.SKA WSOCK32.DLL 5.type DEL SKA.EXE 6.type DEL SKA.DLL Safe Computing: This worm and other trojan-horse type programs demonstrate the need to practice safe computing. One should not execute any executable-file attachment (EXE, SHS, MS Word or MS Excel file) that comes from an email or a newsgroup article from an untrusted source. Norton AntiVirus users can protect themselves from this virus by downloading the current virus definitions either through LiveUpdate or from the following webpage: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/download.html Write-up by: Raul K. Elnitiarta March 2, 1999 Ralph Bunker wrote: > > Make that I would NOT run it if I were you. > At 06:39 AM 5/6/99 -0700, you wrote: > >I received two messages with subject ASR Publications. The second one had > >an attachment called HAPPY99.EXE. This is what my virus checker had to say > >about it. I would run it if I were you. > > > > Infected object c:\Eudora\Attach\HAPPY99.EXE. > > Happy99 trojan > > Cannot verify this virus. > > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 6 19:30:37 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 12:30:37 -0700 Subject: Karnataka, Kannada Message-ID: <161227048584.23782.6622608100756098832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An Indologist not in this list agreed with my theory, N. Ganesan *the theory sounds very convincing to me. certainly there is nothing *in the linguistic evidence that would gainsay the idea. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Thu May 6 11:07:36 1999 From: Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 13:07:36 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit dance and drama In-Reply-To: <19990506003014.84719.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048569.23782.1447204526122761821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 5 May 99, at 17:30, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > Indu Shekhar, Sanskrit drama: its origin and decline, > E.J.Brill, 1960 (2nd ed., Delhi, 1977) > How do Sanskritists rate this work? See, e.g., the (justified) criticism by L. Renou, "La recherche sur le th??tre indien depuis 1890", in: S. L?vi, Le th??tre indien, r?impression, 1963, p. XII, n. (7): "R?cemment, l?ouvrage de Shekhar [...] fait ?tat d?une provenance an?ryenne: hypoth?se souvent formul?e pour d?autres secteurs de l?indianisme et qui semble dispenser d?explication interne rationnelle." ("Recently, the work of Shekhar [...] points to a non-Aryan provenance: a hypothesis which has been often formulated with respect to other fields of Indian studies and which seems to exempt [itself] from a rational internal explication.") For more details, see F.B.J. Kuiper, Varu.na and Viduu.saka, On the origin of the Sanskrit Drama, Amsterdam, etc. 1979. Cf., e.g.: -- p. 116: "An entirely different thesis has been defended by Indu Shekar, who argued that the drama was a product of an non-Aryan culture of India. The present study will show why I think that the evidence available points to a different conclusion." -- p. 116, n. 29: "It is true, influence of non-Aryan cultures has too often been invoked, without the slightest proof , as a _deus ex machina_ to explain difficult problems. If, however, there are specific (mostly linguistic) indications pointing to that conclusion, there is obviously no point in ignoring their existence, our task then being to try to understand what the role of the influence can have been in the whole context of Indian culture." Regards, Roland Steiner From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu May 6 18:56:58 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 14:56:58 -0400 Subject: ASR Publications Message-ID: <161227048582.23782.2229760641829932042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/6/99 11:16:47 AM Central Daylight Time, dbgray62 at HOME.COM writes: << Indeed, do not open it! >> I work with a Windows machine. I opened the posting, but not the happy99.exe file. When I ran my McAfee virus scan on it, it did not find any virus. (My anti-virus software is a year old.) Should I consider my PC to be infected and go through the whole process of disinfecting it? (I have deleted the happy99.exe file.) Regards S. Palaniappan From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 6 23:03:43 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 16:03:43 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit dance and drama Message-ID: <161227048592.23782.6183537142675004990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Mr. Steiner. On the contrary, Indu Shekhar is a pioneer in that field. Gonda, Shekhar, Kuiper and Renou did not know Tamil. The Classical Sangam Tamil texts remain untouched in the Western academic discourse till to date as far as the music and dance are concerned. CilappatikAram, a product of Kerala, as a drama has not been studied in comparison to Sanskrit dramas yet. In the late 1950s, when Indu Shekhar wrote his dissertation nothing from Dravidian side was available to them. No Zvelebil, Hart, Shulman, Ramanujan, Vasudha, Vidya, Indira, .... Parpola's Deciphering the Indus script was not published or Iravatham Mahadevan have not started writing until 1970s. For example, challenging Sivaramamurti's Nataraja in art, thought and literature, Zvelebil wrote a book: Ananda tandava of Siva sadanrttamurti: the development of ATavallAn-kUttapperumAnaTikaL in South Indian textual and iconographic tradition, 1985, Madras. In this work, Zvelebil explains well the central position music and dance occupy in the life of ancient Tamils from the Sangam texts. P. Younger writes also in his Home of the Dancing Sivan. Admittedly, I have not read anything on what is written about Indic dance and music. Must read Mandakranta Bose, David Gitomer, Natalia Lidova, ... But I suspect these works may not have much from Dravidian/Tamil side. Heard that S. A. Srinivasan, On the composition of the Natyasastra gives some weightage to Dravidian influence. Please let me know if there are books out there that follow the lead by Indu Shekhar, S. A. Srinivasan, ... Or, about anyone working on this aspect. More research involving classical sangam texts and tamil epics and sanskrit drama will show that criticisms by Renou, Kuiper, ... are NOT justified. Sincerely, V. Iyer --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Indu Shekhar, Sanskrit drama: its origin and decline, > E.J.Brill, 1960 (2nd ed., Delhi, 1977) > How do Sanskritists rate this work? See, e.g., the (justified) criticism by L. Renou, "La recherche sur le th??tre indien depuis 1890", in: S. L?vi, Le th??tre indien, r?impression, 1963, p. XII, n. (7): "R?cemment, l?ouvrage de Shekhar [...] fait ?tat d?une provenance an?ryenne: hypoth?se souvent formul?e pour d?autres secteurs de l?indianisme et qui semble dispenser d?explication interne rationnelle." ("Recently, the work of Shekhar [...] points to a non-Aryan provenance: a hypothesis which has been often formulated with respect to other fields of Indian studies and which seems to exempt [itself] from a rational internal explication.") For more details, see F.B.J. Kuiper, Varu.na and Viduu.saka, On the origin of the Sanskrit Drama, Amsterdam, etc. 1979. Cf., e.g.: -- p. 116: "An entirely different thesis has been defended by Indu Shekar, who argued that the drama was a product of an non-Aryan culture of India. The present study will show why I think that the evidence available points to a different conclusion." -- p. 116, n. 29: "It is true, influence of non-Aryan cultures has too often been invoked, without the slightest proof , as a _deus ex machina_ to explain difficult problems. If, however, there are specific (mostly linguistic) indications pointing to that conclusion, there is obviously no point in ignoring their existence, our task then being to try to understand what the role of the influence can have been in the whole context of Indian culture." Regards, Roland Steiner ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 6 23:10:25 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 16:10:25 -0700 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048595.23782.15993707862786516822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Lars Martin Fosse Subject: Re: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 18:00:59 +0200 Lars wrote: I am now trying to work out an epistemological argument related to these matters for a paper which I am preparing, and I am afraid that you will have to wait for my paper for a more detailed answer. Vishal writes: I really look foreward to your publication. Please post the reference when it is published. Lars wrote: It is an argument if you explain why you dismiss the Pauranic accounts. Since you obviously distrust the invasionists, let me suggest that you read Dilip K. Chakrabarti on the Puranas in his book Colonial Indology. Ch. is not an invasionist. Vishal Writes: Thanks for the reference. I did read the book in the last few days. The author does admit that the Pauranic geneologies played a vital role in constructing the history of Mauryas and Guptas. This should add to the credibility of its accounts of other dynasties also. However, he discounts Pauranic testimony for Pre-Buddhistic Indian history on the grounds that no parallel sources (read Buddhist.) are available for verification. Besides, archeological findings to date have not shown anything older than 7 Cent. B.C.E. However, he subsequently weakens this argument by pointing out later himself that archeology in India is still in a very nascent state and for this, he blames the eminent Historians Romila Thapar et al. As an example, he states that modern Patna sits on top of Pataliputra, making excavations difficult. Unfortunately, Dr. Chakrabarti has not alluded to Sri Talegiri's work (or works of Frawley et al) in his text. To discount the astronomical data quoted by Kak et al, he has merely quoted a generalized statement of Winternitz (which has also been quoted ny his bete noire- Romila Thapar ad nauseum) but the quotation cannot constitute an anti-proof by itself. The book does make very interesting reading (and I would recommend it to all) but does not have much bearing on the subject matter of the book by Talegiri etc. because its treatment of Pauranik testimony is very tangential, to say the least. As for your comment- "Since you OBVIOUSLY distrust the Invasionists", let me clarify that my only stance is that the AIT is not alluded to in the Vedic literature, from whatever little I know of it as of now. And I do not accept the works of Kak, Talegiri et al in toto. Thanks for providing the reference. Regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 6 23:21:44 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 16:21:44 -0700 Subject: Visistadvaita Vedanta etc. Message-ID: <161227048597.23782.17970057467424922765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan Subject: Re: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 12:29:14 EDT Dr Palaniappan wrote: I am interested to know what kind of Vedic, Puranic, and Tantric rituals are performed by Agarwals. Vishal writes: Agrawals are a north Indian Vaishya community spread all over Punjab, Jammu, Haryana, UP, Rajasthan, MP etc. They are not Vaidiks. Most of us are Vaishnavas (and worship Lord Hanuman, Lord Rama, Lord Krshna etc.) but depending on our place of origin, we could also worship in the Sikh or Jaina mode. If an Agarwal uses a particular text, it is a modern innovation or due to his personal likings. There is no particular class of scriptures peculiar to Agarwals. As is the case with most North Indians, we do not have any strong sectarian affiliations (except the Arya Samajists) and are quite catholic in our religious practices. It is very rare to come across a Muslim or a Christian covert from our community. Vishal WTOTE: >Another classical > example is that of the Sri Sampradaya or the Ubahaya Vedanta, on which > I created a website recently. Dr. Palaniappan wrote: I would like to know the address of the website. Vishal Writes: http//:www.sit.wisc.edu/~fmorale1.vvh.htm The website is undergoing a massive revision to correct the errors that crept in and to enlarge it considerably. We will be focussing only on the Sanskrit Vedanta of the Sampradaya as I as well as the co-author (who is an American convert to Hindu Dharma) are ignorant of Tamil. I would be grateful for any suggestions that you might have _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 6 23:48:13 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 16:48:13 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048601.23782.10954659870928272028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: "N. Ganesan" Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 06:17:06 PDT >May be Arvind won't buy the opinions of Talageri, Rajaram, Frawley. >Has he written along with them?? Sri Ganesan wrote: You probably forgot about S. Kak. Important point about most `Indigenous Aryan' schoolers is that they do not know a *single* word in Tamil. For them, the main theorists come from Sanskritized elites of Andhra and Karnataka. I suspect this has more to do with the recent history. I have heard slogans calling for Tamil Aiyangars in Tirupati, Andhra and Tamils in Bangalore, Karnataka must be sent 'home'! For some Kannadigas and Telugus, it is hard to take that their origins have more relations to do with Dravidian than anything else. Probably, even Rajaram and Talageri may know little, spoken Tamil. They may not able to explain one Alvar pAsuram, the fountainhead of ubhaya vedAnta (I bet). That is why the attack on Linguistics, Indo-European theory and so forth. Poor Tamil. Regards, N. Ganesan Vishal Writes: Although the above is a really pathetic posting, I would like to add that to my knowledge, Kak is a Kashmiri name. I donot know whether Dr. Rajaram et al can explain the works of Alvars (I certainly cannot) but can the Invasionist Indologists do so? Personally, I think that Indologists must aspire to learn both the classical languages of India, not only Sanskrit. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 6 23:55:36 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 16:55:36 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048603.23782.3417463941858565921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Shrisha Rao Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:33:58 -0500 Sri Sirish Rao wrote: The very same trend is certainly present to a large degree in recent Indological scholarship (such as with the late Jan Gonda, who had never been to India, but was perfectly content to theorize about it extensively from his armchair). Vishal Writes: The comprehensiveness and extent of Dr. Gonda's works is mind boggling indeed (and are useful in their own ways) but often, one feels that his data collection has been forced to fit a purely speculative and an artifical construct. Some of the translations are totally against the spirit of the orignial which greatly detracts from the validity of Dr. Gonda's writings. As an instance, I refer Indologists to 'Vedic Tantrism' (A translation of Saunakiya Rigvidhana) in which Dr. Bhatta has shown the stark absurdities of the earlier translation of the text by Dr. Gonda. The absurdities in Dr. Gonda's translations are so glaring that one is let perplexed. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From rbunker at FRANKLIN.LISCO.COM Thu May 6 23:58:42 1999 From: rbunker at FRANKLIN.LISCO.COM (Ralph Bunker) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 16:58:42 -0700 Subject: ASR Publications In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048588.23782.10991059353022427928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As long as you did not run the happy99.exe file, you are okay. You should update your virus detection software. At 02:56 PM 5/6/99 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/6/99 11:16:47 AM Central Daylight Time, >dbgray62 at HOME.COM writes: > ><< Indeed, do not open it! >> > >I work with a Windows machine. I opened the posting, but not the happy99.exe >file. When I ran my McAfee virus scan on it, it did not find any virus. (My >anti-virus software is a year old.) Should I consider my PC to be infected >and go through the whole process of disinfecting it? (I have deleted the >happy99.exe file.) > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 7 00:01:21 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 17:01:21 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048605.23782.3212562265118206983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: "N. Ganesan" Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 04:37:42 PDT Sri Ganesan wrote: . Also, with no critical edition for ashtadhyayi available , is that section in the original or in a later layer? Vishal writes: I refer you to Astadhyaayi sutrapaatha edited by Pt. Yuddhstthira Mimamsaka (Ramalal Kapoor Trust). Hereein, the editor has given the textual variants and has incoprorated appendices to record the variant readings, additional aphorisms etc. found in various manuscripts. This could lead to some insights. Regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From dbgray62 at HOME.COM Thu May 6 21:53:41 1999 From: dbgray62 at HOME.COM (DAVID GRAY) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 17:53:41 -0400 Subject: ASR Publications Message-ID: <161227048586.23782.7850511646170215593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, my understanding from Symantec's info. is that reading the email won't hurt, so long as you did not run the EXE attachment. Just delete it and don't worry about it. It might not hurt to get an update to your virus protection software, however. D.G. Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > In a message dated 5/6/99 11:16:47 AM Central Daylight Time, > dbgray62 at HOME.COM writes: > > << Indeed, do not open it! >> > > I work with a Windows machine. I opened the posting, but not the happy99.exe > file. When I ran my McAfee virus scan on it, it did not find any virus. (My > anti-virus software is a year old.) Should I consider my PC to be infected > and go through the whole process of disinfecting it? (I have deleted the > happy99.exe file.) > > Regards > S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu May 6 22:06:46 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 18:06:46 -0400 Subject: Karnataka, Kannada Message-ID: <161227048590.23782.5375502234387650606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/6/99 5:58:58 AM Central Daylight Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: << kalnADu gets sanskritized as karnATaka. >> I do not think this is correct. Before agreeing with this suggestion concerning kan2n2ATu and karunATU, one will have to explain the pair nen2n2al and nerunal, occurring in CT. Also, is the underlying process different from cases where, for example, Tamil naturalizes Sanskrit karNa, and varma as kan2n2an2, and van2man2 respectively? Regards S. Palaniappan From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 7 01:22:27 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 18:22:27 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit dance and drama Message-ID: <161227048611.23782.13258735406915278262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >see for example 2 of F. B. J. Kuiper's papers on OLD Tamil in his >collection : Selected Writings on Indian Linguistics and Philology, >Amsterdam-Atlanta 1997. Thanks for the reference. I will read them. However, I am still skeptical: it takes years of training to master Tamil just like Sanskrit. Did Kuiper have that? I remember Jean-Luc Chevillard saying some thing on poruL (meaning) and col (words) of old texts. I know people working from a volume of DED, Kuiper being a great linguist and master of several IE languages, he would have intuitively grapsed many things related to Tamil. Still, to know Tamil fully is a different matter, I would think. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri May 7 00:39:08 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 06 May 99 19:39:08 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit dance and drama In-Reply-To: <19990506230344.12373.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048599.23782.14131053577692518180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Where do people summon up the gall to make general statements such as : >At 16:03 -0700 5/6/99, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: >Kuiper ... did not know Tamil. see for example 2 of F. B. J. Kuiper's papers on OLD Tamil in his collection : Selected Writings on Indian Linguistics and Philology, Amsterdam-Atlanta 1997. The introduction lists more, also on theater. Kuiper (now91) knows and has written on Indo-Eur., Indo-Iranian, Old Iranian, Vedic, Prakrit, Classical Sanskrit, Dravidian/Tamil and Munda. This type of person -- very rare these days -- cannot be accused of superficiality. The only answer is to such general criticism is: read his book and check on ALL of his data yourself! MW >F.B.J. Kuiper, Varu.na and Viduu.saka, >On the origin of the Sanskrit Drama, Amsterdam, etc. 1979. Cf., >e.g.: >-- p. 116: "An entirely different thesis has been defended by >Indu Shekar, who argued that the drama was a product of an >non-Aryan culture of India. ****The present study will show**** why I >think that the evidence available points to a different conclusion." ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri May 7 03:33:54 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 03:33:54 +0000 Subject: Vaidiks & Vedic Religion In-Reply-To: <19990506232144.7411.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048664.23782.16603617789545637514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 6 May 1999, Vishal Agarwal wrote: > Agrawals ... are not Vaidiks. Most of us are > Vaishnavas - What would be tha castes that are Vaidiks ? - Are the Arya Samajists classed as Vaidiks ? - Are Vaidiks the followers of what is known in Western text-books as `Vedism' or `Vedic Religion' ? Most books claim that the Vedic religion is dead in India. Is it possible it survives amongst the Vaidiks ? If so, then Vaidiks would be followers of the oldest religion on Earth. - How many Vaidiks are there in India (rough %) ? Samar From kekai at JPS.NET Fri May 7 12:57:54 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 05:57:54 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048608.23782.5008739196018978100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal wrote: > As an instance, I refer Indologists to 'Vedic Tantrism' (A translation of Saunakiya Rigvidhana) in which Dr. Bhatta has shown the stark absurdities of the earlier translation of the text by Dr. Gonda. The absurdities in Dr. Gonda's translations are so glaring that one is let perplexed. > Vishal, could you give an example or two of these absurdities? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 7 13:53:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 06:53:29 -0700 Subject: Karnataka, Kannada Message-ID: <161227048620.23782.11595288166129016654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: << kalnADu gets sanskritized as karnATaka. >> >I do not think this is correct. Before agreeing with this suggestion >concerning kan2n2ATu and karunATU, one will have to explain the pair >nen2n2al and nerunal, occurring in CT. Also, is the underlying >process different from cases where, for example, Tamil naturalizes >Sanskrit karNa, and varma as kan2n2an2, and van2man2 respectively? Yes. The presence of `nerunal' (many times in CT)and `nen2n2al' (once in aiGkuRunURu) makes the invoking of Sanskrit icon unnecessary. 'karunATu' and `kannATu' can happen within Tamil/Dravidin internally too. Note also that Jaffna dictinary (KatiraivERpiLLai, ..)has 'karu' as mETu (height, eminence, little hill, rising ground) and mEn2mai (greatness, from < mEl=that which is high, above). The Cologne online dictionary (OTL) has `central elevation which is raised in the middle' for `karu' as one meaning. Hence, kan2n2ATu as well as karunATu mean the same: `raised land, hilly tracts'. Like 'male nADu'. Comapare the several CT usages of kan2n2ATu, kan2n2ATan2 etc., Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri May 7 15:31:37 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 08:31:37 -0700 Subject: Karnataka, Kannada Message-ID: <161227048626.23782.900416121197819481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: Dr Ganesan, It seems to me that this working hypothesis does not clearly explain why the quantity of the second vowel has lessened.After all, if the reconstruction is *ka(l)nnADu/a or *karnAdu/a, why do the speakers of that language call their own language kannaDa with a short second vowel? Is a prakritization of a Sanskrit (or at least a learned) term at work here? Also, I remember reading somewhere that ViThobA of Pandharpur was refered to in Old Marathi as kA(a?)naDi i.e., as the God of Kannada speakers. I draw your attention to the quantity of the second vowel. I submit therefore that karnATa(ka) is a learned back-formation from kannaDa. In this connection, it might help to remember that many regional self-appellations continue to lack satisfactory etymologies. But they have always had some sort of "official" Sanskrit Ur-forms/etymologies but many authorities have chosen to ignore these. Examples abound: 1. Kuiper thinks the term telugu is ultimately of Munda origin. (cf "Aryans in the Rigveda"). 2. MahArAShTra: I remember reading at least one etymology deriving it from araTTa, a particularly long-lived tribal name (cf S.N. Kramer, "The Sumerians", Witzel "Tracing the Vedic dialects". Also compare Classical Tamil araTTar for the Rashtrakutas. Needless to say, the term tamiz does not even have so many theories. Thanks and Warm Regards. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 7 16:10:01 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 09:10:01 -0700 Subject: Karnataka, Kannada Message-ID: <161227048628.23782.411794747121097597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks a lot, Sri. Srinivas. I had this in my mind; tamil uses both karunaTar and karunATar; What is the relation between 'naDa' in kannaDa and nADu? May be others have an explanation? I wait for them. Kind regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 7 16:16:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 09:16:07 -0700 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227048637.23782.2937658874861963649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri Ganesan wrote: [..] That is why the attack on Linguistics, Indo-European theory and so forth. Poor Tamil. Vishal Writes: >Although the above is a really pathetic posting, I would like to >add that to my knowledge, Kak is a Kashmiri name. I do not know >whether Dr. Rajaram et al can explain the works of Alvars (I >certainly cannot) but can the Invasionist Indologists do so? >Personally, I think that Indologists must aspire to learn both >the classical languages of India, not only Sanskrit. Thanks for: all interested in classical 'must aspire to learn *both* the classical languages of India, not only Sanskrit'. Not too long ago in this list, some esteemed members were arguing their personal view that how/why Tamil cannot be construed a Classical Language!! Is that not a pathetic attempt? I guess I do not understand some learned members denying independent origin for Tamil and Dravidian language family. It makes enjoyable reading to scan the views of Kak, Frawley, ... when they talk about Dravidian languages. The new 'paradigm' is eloquently articulated in Dr. S. Kalyanaraman's website: *Breakthrough! So many claims have been made so far (cf. Possehl's *Indus Age: Writing System)that I am submitting this after careful *deliberation and *years of work on an electronic comparative Indian lexicon. [...] In Indology forum on 27-feb-1995, Sri. S. Kalyanaraman wrote under the title "Semantic clustering technique in South Asian dictionary", * I think I have proved that Burrow and Emeneau's * work is an aberrant, erroneous construct of a artificial family; * most of their etyma (over 4,000 out of 5,000) really belong with * the rest of the family of languages of South Asia. On the `indic paradigms', Sarasvati-Sindhu civilization (c. 3000 B.C.)website: *This may mean a new paradigm in our protohistoric studies. Aryans *and Dravidians and perhaps Mundas lived in harmony in this *civilization. The so-called indo-aryan and so-called dravidian *languages may have originated *from the common lingua franca spoken by these people on the Indus and *Sarasvati river valleys. Thus, common words of Tamil can be found in *Sanskrit/Vedic. The author claims to have established that the *Dravidian etymological dictionary with 5000 entries can cease to *exist since many of these words have cognates in vedic/munda and *many south asian languages. Is Dravidian language family really an aberrant, erroneous construct? Is Dravidian an "artificial" family? Or, is Tamil a mere vernacular from Sanskrit? Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Alan.Thew at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK Fri May 7 08:16:19 1999 From: Alan.Thew at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Alan Thew) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 09:16:19 +0100 Subject: admin: happy99.exe virus Message-ID: <161227048613.23782.5879468739552582758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This was sent to indology by an infected member/machine, please delete and do not run otherwise you will get infected. Information (sligltly old) at http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2208275,00.html This will be removed from the archives. -- Alan Thew alan.thew at liverpool.ac.uk Computing Services,University of Liverpool Fax: +44 151 794-4442 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 7 16:39:22 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 09:39:22 -0700 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227048630.23782.11664063801482685123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri Ganesan wrote: [..] That is why the attack on Linguistics, Indo-European theory and so forth. Poor Tamil. Vishal Writes: >Although the above is a really pathetic posting, I would like to >add that to my knowledge, Kak is a Kashmiri name. I do not know >whether Dr. Rajaram et >al can explain the works of Alvars (I certainly cannot) but can the >Invasionist Indologists do so? Personally, I think that Indologists >must aspire to learn both the classical languages of India, not >only Sanskrit. Thanks for: all interested in classical 'must aspire to learn *both* the classical languages of India, not only Sanskrit'. Not too long ago in this list, some esteemed members were arguing their personal view that how/why Tamil cannot be construed a Classical Language!! Is that not a pathetic attempt? I guess I do not understand some learned members denying independent origin for Tamil and Dravidian language family. It makes enjoyable reading to scan the views of Kak, Frawley, ... when they talk about Dravidian languages. The new 'paradigm' is eloquently articulated in Dr. S. Kalyanaraman's website: *Breakthrough! So many claims have been made so far (cf. Possehl's * Indus Age: Writing System)that I am submitting this after careful * deliberation and *years of work on an electronic comparative Indian lexicon. [...] In Indology forum on 27-feb-1995, Sri. S. Kalyanaraman wrote under the title "Semantic clustering technique in South Asian dictionary", * I think I have proved that Burrow and Emeneau's * work is an aberrant, erroneous construct of a artificial family; * most of their etyma (over 4,000 out of 5,000) really belong with * the rest of the family of languages of South Asia. On the `indic paradigms', Sarasvati-Sindhu civilization (c. 3000 B.C.)website: *This may mean a new paradigm in our protohistoric studies. Aryans *and Dravidians and perhaps Mundas lived in harmony in this * civilization. The so-called indo-aryan and so-called dravidian * languages may have originated from the common lingua franca spoken * by these people on the Indus and Sarasvati river valleys. *Thus, common words of Tamil can be found in *Sanskrit/Vedic. The author claims to have established that the * Dravidian etymological dictionary with 5000 entries can cease to * exist since many of these words have cognates in vedic/munda and * many south asian languages. Is Dravidian language family really an aberrant, erroneous construct? Is Dravidian an "artificial" family? Or, is Tamil a mere vernacular from Sanskrit? Regards, N. Ganesan (Aside: I read from a KZ's book, tamiz < tam izi (their own speech)). _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri May 7 17:16:09 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 10:16:09 -0700 Subject: Karnataka, Kannada Message-ID: <161227048632.23782.12133740992157834814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > I submit therefore that karnATa(ka) is a learned > back-formation from kannaDa. naTu = to place; nATu = a place, this type of pairs are many; Eg., viTu (to leave) & vITu (=home, mukti). I think naTu and nATu come from the same semantics, hence, "kannaDa" may also point to "kannADaka". In this connection, naL-(black) and nAL- (eg., nAL miin2, night star) are worth considering. SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU Fri May 7 15:23:45 1999 From: wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Walker Trimble) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 11:23:45 -0400 Subject: Info on BodhicAryavatAra In-Reply-To: <19990505224107.89740.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048657.23782.3452040709640824693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:41 PM 5/5/99 PDT, you wrote: >Does anybody have information on the quality of the translations of ShAnti >Deva's BodhicAryavatAra? > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > Two years ago I read the Bodhichaaryavataara in a class with Prof. Richard Gombrich. All of us in the class agreed that the translation of Kate Crosby and Andrew Skilton under OUP, 1996 was quite good. As I recall, they kept to the Sanskrit version and only resorted to the Tibetan translation when necessary. On my part, I find the style a little too informal. Regards, W. Trimble From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri May 7 09:39:46 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 11:39:46 +0200 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by GregoryL.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048616.23782.9497665152902155614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal wrote: > As for your comment- "Since you OBVIOUSLY distrust the Invasionists", let me > clarify that my only stance is that the AIT is not alluded to in the Vedic > literature, from whatever little I know of it as of now. And I do not accept > the works of Kak, Talegiri et al in toto. > I really owe you an apology for the "OBVIOUSLY". I regrettet it as soon as I had sent the email, but it was the unfortunate product of reading some writers who really DO distrust the Invasionists. Thank you for your disquisition on Chakrabarty's views. Best regards, Lars Martin From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Fri May 7 10:56:09 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 12:56:09 +0200 Subject: Prof. Kuiper (was: Re: Sanskrit dance and drama) In-Reply-To: <19990507012228.50951.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048618.23782.9448497553860457849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As a testimony to prof. Kuiper's detailed interest into Tamil, see also: International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 1974, Vol.III, No.1, pp.135-153 "The Genesis of a Linguistic Area", F.B.J. Kuiper (this is a reprint of the text of the Collitz lecture delivered at the summer meeting of the LSA, Ann Arbor, july 30,1965) I will simply quote an excerpt from note 41 (p.147) "[...] My sincere thanks are due to Dr. Kamil Zvelebil, who kindly checked the majority of the passages in the _PuRanAn2URu_. He found that _en2a_ occurs in _PuRam_ at least 200 times as a simple marker of direct speech, [...] Best wishes - Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) At 16:03 -0700 5/6/99, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: >Kuiper ... did not know Tamil. Michael Witzel wrote >>see for example 2 of F. B. J. Kuiper's papers on OLD Tamil in his >>collection : Selected Writings on Indian Linguistics and Philology, >>Amsterdam-Atlanta 1997. Venkatraman Iyer wrote >.... I know people working from a volume of DED, >Kuiper being a great linguist and master of several IE languages, >he would have intuitively grapsed many things related to Tamil. >Still, to know Tamil fully is a different matter, I would think. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Fri May 7 19:24:36 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya Mishra) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 15:24:36 -0400 Subject: Astrological Predictions in India for May 8,1999 Message-ID: <161227048639.23782.14349966996535029769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Times of India News Service NEW DELHI: Even as more scientists debunked the May 8 doomsday theory, there appeared to be no end to the panic that has gripped people. The Nehru Planetarium here says nothing at all will happen on Saturday, or on any other day in the near future. ``It's all utter nonsense,'' says Mahendra Singh of the planetarium. ``There's going to be no change in the planets' position on May 8 - it's the usual thing, no different from today... Venus on the western horizon, Mars on the eastern, Jupiter and Saturn on the other side of the Sun... They aren't even coming into a line.'' In Bangalore, Ms Vinod Krishnan, professor at the Indian Institute of Astrophysics, says that each planet has a definite orbit and period of rotation. Only when the planets come close to each other with minimum angular separation can they be seen simultaneously from one position on the earth. This is called alignment. But this grouping is purely dynamical and not based on mutual interaction. And it has absolutely no bearing on human life. She says mathematical calculations show that such an alignment will occur on May 5, 2000. Be that as it may, parts of Gujarat are witnessing an exodus of people like never before. It all began following the publication of an article in a Delhi based astrological magazine Mahalakshmi Samrat. The article had said that a coastal town will be decimated after a catastrophe. That was enough to send residents of the ship breaking yard at Alang to flee. Says Alang Ship Breakers Association president Budhabhai Patel, ``These people are so illiterate, they cannot differentiate between a rumor and a sane advice. Over 18,000 people have fled because someone distributed pamphlets announcing the doomsday.'' Though the magazine was not specific, the pamphlets were specific that Alang would be the scene of the "pralay" (catastrophe). A similar rumor of Kandla port being hit by a volcano also generated fear in the Kandla-Gandhidham area where over 2,000 people died in a cyclone last year. Bhavnagar resident collector G.M. Thakkar said all efforts to convince people that these were rumors have failed. A report from Patna says that the doomsday panic has gripped semi-literate and illiterate people in the city and its adjacent villages. Everybody is talking about the end of the world. In Ishopur village, Gopal, a farm laborer, along with his son, is spending agonizing moments and sleepless nights keeping a close vigil. Says rationalist Lankesh Chakravarty, ``This is not blind faith or superstition but mass madness.'' Some astrologers have, however, refuted the rumors. D.D. Guru, an economist and keen astrologer, says, ``There is no chance of any trajectory or eight planets falling in one line. This phenomenon did occur in 1962 when eight planets joined one house and India witnessed the war with China but no apocalypse occurred.'' The doomsday rumors have also had some effect in the quake hit Uttar Pradesh hills and Himachal Pradesh. But the people in the Uttar Pradesh hills are more worried about getting rehabilitation, already reeling from a major earthquake and now forest fires. `` Rumors are making the rounds here that May 8 will be doomsday, but intelligent people know that it is all a rumor. The villagers may be gullible, but overall this has had little effect on the quake victims,'' Chakradhar Tiwari of the Dasholi Gramsabha, an NGO run by environmentalist Chand Prasad Bhatt, told The Times of India over phone. In Himachal, the doomsday fear has not taken on paranoid proportions but it is the common topic of discussion. Even an astrologer, Shastri Tej Prakash Semwal, who lives in Paonta Sahib, has ruled out any catastrophe on Saturday. --------------------- -- Have a peaceful and joyous day. ?1998 Aditya Mishra homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya ICQ Pager: 1131674 Random thought of the day: People often find it easier to be a result of the past than a cause of the future. From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Fri May 7 15:15:59 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 17:15:59 +0200 Subject: Info on BodhicAryavatAra In-Reply-To: <19990505224107.89740.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048622.23782.16901307108706746465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello nanda I'm not sure what you meant with 'quality' in your request, but the BCV is to me a selfconfession of a buddhist abbot who sometimes wants very much to prove to himself how good he is. Some parts I find quite impressive though and there's many a good example of buddhist mahayana ethics and meditation methods. Other examples of this kind of text are 'Personal Notes' from Marc Aurel and 'Confessions' from Augstine. Marc Aurel is much more honest however, but Shantideva comes close to Augustine in his devote moments. -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Fri May 7 15:17:38 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 17:17:38 +0200 Subject: Info on BodhicAryavatAra In-Reply-To: <19990505224107.89740.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048624.23782.14199842019651788975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi nanda Op donderdag, 06-mei-99 schreef nanda chandran: nc| Does anybody have information on the quality of the translations of ShAnti nc| Deva's BodhicAryavatAra? sorry I just misread your request -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From kekai at JPS.NET Sat May 8 05:48:22 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Fri, 07 May 99 22:48:22 -0700 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227048635.23782.16857152855486249392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > Is Dravidian language family really an aberrant, erroneous > construct? Is Dravidian an "artificial" family? Or, is > Tamil a mere vernacular from Sanskrit? > Or even more interesting: is your name really N. Ganesan (a popular subject awhile ago). Seriously though, the issue is not whether Dravidian, Munda and "Aryan" languages are related, but whether Dr. Kalyanaraman can even pose such questions in the Western academic paradigm. However, I think you have misrepresented Kalyanaraman. Does he state that "Tamil is a mere dialect of Sanskrit." His argument seems to arise from a different approach in ascertaining "genetic relationship." What might casually be ascribed to "areal" influences by others might in his view be something much more substantial. Given that, I don't quite agree with Kalyanaraman's theory that European languages originated in Europe - the Out of India theory (if that is actually what he is suggesting). There is no more evidence supporting this theory than there is the Aryan Invasion Theory. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat May 8 04:40:44 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 08 May 99 00:40:44 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit dance and drama Message-ID: <161227048641.23782.12694983150423434027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/6/99 6:10:23 AM Central Daylight Time, Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE writes: << If, however, there are specific (mostly linguistic) indications pointing to that conclusion, there is obviously no point in ignoring their existence, our task then being to try to understand what the role of the influence can have been in the whole context of Indian culture." >> Kuiper seems to have pursued this further in his book "Aryans in the Rigveda", p. 19. In a section dealing with music and dancing, he lists AghATi' - sound of cymbals; karkarI' - a kind of lute; ga'rgara - a lute or drum?; dundubhi' - drum; nALI' - flute, pipe; pi'Gga - a musical instrument; ba'kura - wind instrument, vANa'-, vA'NI - music, voice; sasarpari' - war trumpet; and AGgUSa' - song of praise. He also says that the "list of Bharata's sons who acted in the mythical first dramatic performance (bhAratIya nATyazAstra 1.26-39) consists for the greater part of names of indigenous tribes. He also says there are non-Aryan names/words for actors and singers in the Vedas. Among the words listed by Kuiper, I am intrigued by the word nALI. In his book, Kuiper mentions it twice as being non-Aryan. For him, one of the main reasons to consider it non-Aryan is the inter-vocalic retroflex. But, Mayrhorfer relates it to words in Nuristani, Parthian/Middle Persian, Hittite, and Armenian and reconstructs an IE *ne/od-o-/-i-. Can IE experts say who is right? Kuiper or Mayrhorfer? Given the close proximity of these IE branches, how certain is this etymology compared to a word such as Skt. pitR? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 8 13:01:27 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 08 May 99 06:01:27 -0700 Subject: hAlAsyapurANa and hAlAsyarahasya Message-ID: <161227048642.23782.5357807327507790932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>I have concluded that the earliest extant work on Ziva's games in >>Madurai is the work by Nampi... Dr. M. Rabe writes >prompting me to hope you can tell me whether or not any of the >various recitations of Ziva's games in Madurai include reference to >slaying an elephant demon. Approaching the question from another >direction, are there any sthala puranic explanations for how the >mountain Anaimalai, just northeast of the city, came to have this >name? Slaying of the elephant took place at a place called "vazhuvUr" in Tanjore dt. Tamil textual tradition is unanimous in that; I have read and heard from Ki. Vaa. Jagannathan, editor of Kalaimakal and the prime disciple of UVS, that UVS said "vazhuvUr" comes from "vazhuvaiyUr" where vazhuvai = elephant. Michael, you must be familiar with the famous Chola gajasamharamurti from vazhuvUr. Technically very complex and difficult to create than Natarajas. In this G. bronze from vazhuvur, gaNas are playing cymbols, With an elephant being slayed and kept upside down, 'Siva extricates himself out of the carcass in a spiralling fashion and while dancing. This event is celebrated in vazhuvuur as an annual festival. There is a huge, hollow elephant made out of reeds, bamboo, leaves etc., This elephant is carried in a "uurvalam" from the opposite side of the temple, The famous Gajasamhara, all decorated and in splendour, comes only on this day out of the temple. Around 10 P.M, the utsavamUrti enters the belly of the man-made elephant. That is the climax, all lights go out for 10 minutes or so, crackers explode: all due to 'Siva fighting the demon. After that an elaborate puja and feasting. van Buitenan has an one or two page article on gajasamhara in Kalidasa. Tevaram has 100s of references, "panaikkai mummata vEzam urittavan, anaittum vETamaam ampalak kUttan" -appar (7th century CE). Traditionally 'Siva has performed 8 heroic acts, supposed to have taken place at 8 places. aTTa vIraTTam in Tamil, to perform each heroic act, he performs a specific dance at each site. These different dances performed once a year at that particular vIraTTam, the sculptures associated with them, tamil/sanskrit relevant passages must be the subject of a good research topic. On the other hand: Madurai's Anai malai has NO connection to the gajasamhara legend. Cellinakar PerumpaRRap PuliyUr Nampi (fl. 1228 CE, acc. to UVS) wrote the first tiruviLaiyADal (NT). Nampi's tiruviLaiyADal (NT) episode number 36: The refers to the naming of Madurai because 'Siva converted the river of poison from a giant cobra into sweet nectar. The poison was let upon the city by the magic of Jainas. NT episode no. 26: The Jaina heretics sent an elephant against the City. Sundaresvarar petrified the beast as Anaimalai hill. This 13th century legend of explaining the name Anaimalai is the earliest I could find so far. I think Anaimalai is so named because it resembles a lying elephant. Have a good weekend, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From gvvajrac at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Sat May 8 15:18:45 1999 From: gvvajrac at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Gautama Vajracharya) Date: Sat, 08 May 99 10:18:45 -0500 Subject: hAlAsyapurANa and hAlAsyarahasya Message-ID: <161227048644.23782.10423557960041326071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Ganesan, Is it possible to know the time of the year when the annual vaZhuvUr festival of Shiva and the elephant is performed? Thank you for the information in advance. Gautama At 06:01 AM 5/8/99 PDT, you wrote: > >>I have concluded that the earliest extant work on Ziva's games in > >>Madurai is the work by Nampi... > >Dr. M. Rabe writes > >prompting me to hope you can tell me whether or not any of the > >various recitations of Ziva's games in Madurai include reference to > >slaying an elephant demon. Approaching the question from another > >direction, are there any sthala puranic explanations for how the > >mountain Anaimalai, just northeast of the city, came to have this > >name? > > Slaying of the elephant took place at a place called "vazhuvUr" >in Tanjore dt. Tamil textual tradition is unanimous in that; >I have read and heard from Ki. Vaa. Jagannathan, editor of Kalaimakal >and the prime disciple of UVS, that UVS said "vazhuvUr" >comes from "vazhuvaiyUr" where vazhuvai = elephant. >Michael, you must be familiar with the famous Chola gajasamharamurti >from vazhuvUr. Technically very complex and difficult to create >than Natarajas. In this G. bronze from vazhuvur, gaNas >are playing cymbols, With an elephant being slayed and kept upside >down, 'Siva extricates himself out of the carcass in a >spiralling fashion and while dancing. This event is celebrated >in vazhuvuur as an annual festival. There is a huge, hollow elephant >made out of reeds, bamboo, leaves etc., This elephant is >carried in a "uurvalam" from the opposite side of the temple, >The famous Gajasamhara, all decorated and in splendour, comes only >on this day out of the temple. Around 10 P.M, the utsavamUrti >enters the belly of the man-made elephant. That is the climax, >all lights go out for 10 minutes or so, crackers explode: all due to >'Siva fighting the demon. After that an elaborate puja and >feasting. van Buitenan has an one or two page article on >gajasamhara in Kalidasa. Tevaram has 100s of references, >"panaikkai mummata vEzam urittavan, anaittum vETamaam >ampalak kUttan" -appar (7th century CE). Traditionally >'Siva has performed 8 heroic acts, supposed to have >taken place at 8 places. aTTa vIraTTam in Tamil, >to perform each heroic act, he performs a specific dance >at each site. These different dances performed once a year >at that particular vIraTTam, the sculptures associated with >them, tamil/sanskrit relevant passages must be the subject of >a good research topic. > >On the other hand: >Madurai's Anai malai has NO connection to the gajasamhara >legend. Cellinakar PerumpaRRap PuliyUr Nampi (fl. 1228 CE, >acc. to UVS) wrote the first tiruviLaiyADal (NT). >Nampi's tiruviLaiyADal (NT) episode number 36: >The refers to the naming of Madurai because 'Siva converted the >river of poison from a giant cobra into sweet nectar. >The poison was let upon the city by the magic of Jainas. >NT episode no. 26: >The Jaina heretics sent an elephant against the City. >Sundaresvarar petrified the beast as Anaimalai hill. > >This 13th century legend of explaining the name Anaimalai >is the earliest I could find so far. I think >Anaimalai is so named because it resembles a lying >elephant. > >Have a good weekend, >N. Ganesan > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat May 8 17:11:52 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 08 May 99 12:11:52 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit dance and drama In-Reply-To: <32afb90a.24651a4c@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227048646.23782.9160082488891939752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Palaniappan is of course entirely right in drawing attention to Kuiper's 1991 book and his discussion of the non-Indo-Aryan Rgvedic words for music and dance. Actually Kuiper had done so before, in 1955: Rigvedic Loanwords, in: Studia Indologica. Festschrift fur Willibald Kirfel (ed. Otto Spies), Bonn : Selbstverlag des Orientalischen Seminars der Universitaet Bonn 1955, p. 137-185 especially pp. 154-155. There is no doubt that such words are Austro-Asiatic/Munda, Dravidian or belong to a third unknown language (cf. Masica's language 'x') . (More in forthcoming papers in Fachtagung der Indogerman. Sprachwiss., Erlangen 1998 ed. B. Forssman, and in Mother Tongue). But it is one thing to note that such words are important enough to be included in the arcahic and traditional, hieratic vocabulary of the Rgveda (almost all are in later parts), and another thing to conclude that Indian theatre is derived from a Dravidian source, as discussed earlier in this thread. There simply were too many, diverse ethnic groups around in Vedic India. See discussion in HOS Opera Minora 3 (forthcoming this spring). This in the context of Kuiper who focuses (see his book Varuna and Vidusaka) on the Vedic sources of the myth underlying the first sections of a drama performance. At 0:40 -0400 5/8/99, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > [Kuiper] also says that the "list of >Bharata's sons who acted in the mythical first dramatic performance >(bhAratIya nATyazAstra 1.26-39) consists for the greater part of names of >indigenous tribes. He also says there are non-Aryan names/words for actors >and singers in the Vedas. ============= >Among the words listed by Kuiper, I am intrigued by the word nALI. In his >book, Kuiper mentions it twice as being non-Aryan. For him, one of the main >reasons to consider it non-Aryan is the inter-vocalic retroflex. But, >Mayrhorfer relates it to words in Nuristani, Parthian/Middle Persian, >Hittite, and Armenian and reconstructs an IE *ne/od-o-/-i-. Can IE experts >say who is right? Kuiper or Mayrhorfer? Difficult problem. It depends on Mayrhofer's (and others' ) theory of "spontaneous retroflexion" in some Vedic words. See M. Mayrhofer, Ueber den spontanen Zerebralnasal im fruehen Indo-Arischen. In: Melanges d'Indianisme. Fs. Renou, Paris 1968, 509-517 In that case IE nedo > Ved. naDa/naLa is possible.... However, I find difficulties with this theory. Words with -D- usually are non-IA! There also is the opposite tendency in RV: RV avata 'hole' :: avaTa SV, YV with "Aryanization" of the form in RV, and the more popular/non-IA form one in other, later texts. Words in -Ta usually are non-IA. Cf. Kuiper 1991 p. 45 f. As for naDa/naLa: DEDR 3610 compares, errouneously, Tam. nal 'good' with the Skt. name (king) Nala, see also Zvelebil 1990: 82; But Nala is in Ved. (SB 2.3.2.1-2 king naDa naiSidha) and in Mbh. (nala naiSadha), the king of the apparently Austro-As. tribe of the niSidha/niSadha = ved. (with"aryanization") niSAda (YV: MS, VS+); Erroneously, because the normal development is (Rg) Vedic intervocalic -D- > -L- and later on, > l (see H. Luders, Philologica Indica, Gottingen 1940). Thus Satapatha Br. naDa is the old form, not nala. - cf. further Kuiper 1991: 33 on D/d, and p. 19 nADa RV 10.135.7 'flute, pipe' (cf. also his 1948 book : Proto-Munda words in Sanskrit, Amsterdam 1948 p. 82). A decision of such questions can only be made if specialists of the various languages involved explain (1) the root AND all suffixes and (2) the meaning(s) of the word involved in all languages concerned. Therefore, for example, Nala = Drav. nal does not work. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 8 20:13:44 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 08 May 99 13:13:44 -0700 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227048659.23782.4638166100572448587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I believe this discussion of 'parvata' = 'zriiparvata' has been most >interesting. Are there any similar inscriptional or literary >references that take us closer to Bhart.rhari's date (appr. 5th >century A.D.)? The reference to 'parvata' combined with the >reference to 'daak.si.naatye.su granthamaatre ...' makes the >zriiparvata the best candidate. The question >is are there other contemporary references to zriiparvata by the >term parvata. Madhav Deshpande The Sanskrit texts of 5th century to 10th century and more only refer to 'zrii-parvata' for the present day Srisailam, and not to `parvata' at all. HarSacarita (Chowkamba ed. p.9), KaadambarI (ed. Peterson, p. 224-228), Maalatii-maadhava (1.8,10) and RaajataraGgiNI (3.267, 4.390), vAsavadatta, kathAsaritsAgara. In HarSa's RatnAvalI, udayaNa's teacher hails from zriiparvata. This is true even in MaJjuzrImUlakalpa. It refers to zrii-parvata as: 'zrii-parvate mahAzaile dakSiNApatha saJiJike'. Inscriptional uses of *zrii-parvata* continue well beyond: The earliest inscriptions at Srisailam are dated to A.D. 1313. SII, vol. X, nos. 503 and 504. They also refer to 'zrii-parvata', and not parvata. Given the continuous usage in Sanskrit texts and in earliest Srisailam temple inscriptions as 'zrii-parvata', the term 'parvata' in VP 2.486 need not necessarily represent zrii-parvata. If the VP 2.486 author intended it exclusively, he could have employed zrii-parvata easily as done in other contemporaneous Sanskrit texts. Instead, parvata in VP 2.486 could very well be the *kula-parvata* of the South (malaya/potiyil) appearing from Ram. & MBh. period, a) which is well known in Sanskrit material of the early centuries A.D., and b) which has an attested dakSiNAmUrti/avalokitezvara cult, and c) where the myth of ziva/avalokita teaching grammar to agastya is available, and d) the myth of ziva or avalokita inspiring Panini, attested from Southern sources only, appears to be an later extension of the malayamuni agastya cult of (c). The term malaya-parvata, an important kula-parvata, occurs in Sanskrit texts. It is likely the *parvata* in VP 2.486 referred to by a generic name. Because malaya-parvata is the only Southern parvata excelling in grammatical traditions (atleast as far as texts tell). Greetings, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 8 21:04:27 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 08 May 99 14:04:27 -0700 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227048761.23782.600815235296448781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Aklujkar writes, "The attitude that may be implicit in Peterson's and Scharfe's attempts at identification also needs comment. Both these scholars write as if the TIkA identification does not exist or need not be taken seriously. This is hardly a justifiable view to take of a piece of information that is about one thousand years old; that is unlikely to have been given unless it was known to earlier students and commentators of the VP.." From this, if we take TIKa to be from about 10th century AD, how many years (5 centuries?) earlier was VP written ? What are the currently accepted dates for vAkyapadIya and TIkA? If the intervening period was long, could it be that the identification of tiliGga was a mistake made on the basis of similarity in names? Since I do not have access to some of the critical references, any information from the list will be appreciated. >>> About six-seven centuries separate vAkyapadIya and its TIkA if we assume a 5th century date for VP. See p. 40, H. G. Coward, K. Kunjunni Raja, Ency. of In. Phil., The philosophy of the Grammarians, "BhartRhari apparently never wrote a commentary for Ch. 3. At present only HelArAja's TIkA (c. A.D. 1050-1100) is available". ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat May 8 18:57:55 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 08 May 99 14:57:55 -0400 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048650.23782.17422742320640916025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to questions raised by Michael Rabe earlier, I had sought more information on Raghuvamsa's discussion of Pandyas. L. Srinivas was kind enough to provide the details. What I heard convinced me that Kalidasa definitely must have known the precursors of some of the Madurai stories which appear later in tiruviLaiyATalpurANam. (It is possible Kalidasa received the information from a Tamil zaiva Sanskritist pilgrim or emigre from Madurai.) When considered along with the information in paripATAl, cilappatikAram, etc., Raghuvamsa provides interesting possibilities for dating these texts as well as the history of some religious developments in Tamilnadu. Raghuvamsa talks about a Pandya getting a special weapon from ziva. cilappatikAram mentions Pandya's victory over Indra without mentioning ziva. Even the patikam (considered by many to be a later interpolation) which mentions ziva and silver hall does not talk about mIn2AkSi as the incarnation of pArvatI. The guardian deity of Madurai in cilappatikAram, maturApati, is depicted with the left half of the body with DevI's attributes - dark complexion, lotus in hand, and female anket while the right half seems to have ziva's attributes - golden complexion, axe in hand, and male anklet. But there is no explicit indication that the right half was male. maturApati is described as the patron deity of the Pandyan dynasty from its beginning. There is nothing to indicate that she is linked with any mountain or she has a temple in town or she is an incarnation of pArvatI. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat May 8 18:58:00 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 08 May 99 14:58:00 -0400 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048648.23782.10159806319404012725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my opinion, the description of the Pandya king as wearing a pearl necklace on his chest and resembling 'king of the mountain' (Skt. adrirAja) is a suggestive allusion to the story of mIn2AKSi who is born as the daughter of a Pandya king, malayadhvaja pANtiyan2, similar to umA being born as a daughter of the king of the mountain. Considering the absence of any role for ziva in the Madurai myths in cilappatikAram and the benign neglect of ziva in paripATal, I think paripATal and cilappatikAram must pre-date Raghuvamsa or 5th century. The comparison of a person (tirumAl/viSNu) wearing a necklace being compared to a mountain with a waterfall occurs in paripATal 13.11-12. In earlier CT, a Pandyan king is described as having a chest desired by zrI and wearing a necklace of pearls from his sea and sandal paste (aka. 13.1-6). cilappatikAram 17.29 also has the Pandyan king wearing sandal, a necklace of product of the sea (pearl?) and Indra's necklace and is equated with kRSNa. Thus while earlier Pandyas were being linked with viSNu, in Raghuvamsa the comparison seems to have zaivite leanings. The name malayadhvaja for the father of mIn2AKSi has its own significance. Traditionally, fish (specifically, carp) was the emblem of the Pandyas. The introduction of a new symbol (only in texts) , the malaya/potiyil mountain, is significant. One should note that the whole tiruviLaiyATal purANam is depicted as being told by agastya, the sage of the malaya mountain. I think the followers of the dakSiNAmUrti cult at potiyil/malaya mountain must have succeeded in converting some important sections of Madurai residents to zaivism incorporating the locally popular female deity in the new mythology they created. In this mythology Pandyan king and the carp-eyed goddess are patterned after the parvata rAja and pArvatI. potiyil/malaya mountain which had earlier been compared with Himalayas in CT is set as equivalent and counterbalancing the Himalayas in the story of agastya. As followers of dakSiNAmUrti, the teacher, naturally they create stories of Tamil grammar as being taught by ziva who also participates in the scholarly activities of the Tamil academy in Madurai. In short, I see the Madurai stories as providing clues to the religious conversion of Madurai by those originally established at potiyil. Regards S. Palaniappan From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT Sat May 8 19:15:21 1999 From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone) Date: Sat, 08 May 99 20:15:21 +0100 Subject: Does the puruSa will? (was: Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) In-Reply-To: <000301be967b$b714f3a0$0151b59d@dial.elte.hu> Message-ID: <161227048652.23782.1531990021821391945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 4 May 99 Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: > I do have misgivings about the notion of a purpose *of an intelligent subject* > not willing it. The puruSa is conscious; it has purposes; therefore (I think) he > wills. SK 21 is controversial, but it is perfectly clear that the purpose is the > purpose of the puruSa only and not of the pradhAna; cf. e.g. puruSArtha eva > hetur (31); svArtha iva parArtha ArambhaH(56); tasyArtham apArthakaM carati > (60). As I said previously, from the fact that X serves Y's purpose it does not follow that Y actually purposes X. SK 57 is quite clear about this: as milk acts (i. e. flows), albeit unwittingly, for the growth of the calf, so does nature act for the liberation of the puruSa. By comparing this passage to the preceding kArikA quoted by you, which reads "pratipuruSavimokSArtham svArtha iva parArtha ArambhaH" it becomes apparent that "pratipuruSavimokSArtham" in SK 56 is the same as "puruSavimokSanimittam" in SK 57, and must be understood accordingly. The meaning is *not* that creation is effected by nature because the puruSa wills or purposes it, but rather it is effected *for the sake* of the puruSa's liberation, exactly as the milk flows *not* because the calf wills it, but just *for the sake* of the calf's growth. What we have here is a sort of built-in teleology which can dispense with the need of conscious purposes; but in any case, if there is purpose at all, it is the nature's. SK 60 describes how nature goes out of her way to do what is beneficial to the puruSa without reaping any reward for herself. Thus it is nature who can be said to "purpose" *in a sense*, and in the same sense we can speak of nature's purpose (subjective genitive). On the other hand, when we speak of the puruSa's purpose (puruSArtha) this must be understood as a (sort of) objective genitive: not as purpose entertained by the puruSa, but as purpose having the puruSa as object. > > the puruSa is described as impartial, neutral, inactive and even > > impassive. This being granted, I cannot envisage any more space for > > volition as I understand it. > A judge [ in Sanskrit, draSTR :-) ] may be impartial, neutral and even > impassive and at the same time he may want the criminal to be punished. This is a misrepresentation! draSTR is certainly not meant to signify a judge in the SK. In the "juridical" vein, the puruSa is more aptly styled sAkSin, a mere witness with no deliberative implication whatsoever. > > adhyavasAya is akin to vyavasAya as used in BhG 2.41 with the > >meaning of "resolution" > I disagree: the context is significantly different. Here the buddhi *can* be > vyavasAyAtmikA, and can be its *opposite*; in the SK it *is* adhyavasAya. Even in SK 23 buddhi is adhyavasAya, so to speak, "in principle", i. e. in its sAttvika form, characterized by jJAna etc. But surely, when buddhi is overwhelmed by tamas, hence characterized by ajJAna and the rest, it cannot be equated with adhyavaSaya in point of fact? > Larson's suggestion (buddhi = will) is a bit surprising after his clear > analysis of buddhi as involved in the last stage of the process of perception. > It is only natural that he later changed his mind - in the Encyclopedia of > Indian Philosophies he translates SK 23: "Intellect is characterized by > reflective discerning". As from SK 5 (prativiSayAdhyavasAyo dRSTaM) it is clear > that adhyavasAya is essential to experience/perception, something like > conceptualization / understanding / categorizing / grasping would seem more > appropriate than resolution / will, as no volition is needed for perception. I did not mean to endorse Larson's previous equation of buddhi to will, but only to suggest that it was at all possible because the notion of adhyavasAya entails a principle of determination and fixation which is common to both intellectual categorizing and volitional deliberation. It is precisely on account of this common ground that GauDapAda can understand this determination in terms of conceptualization: "this is a pot, this is a cloth" ---and VAcaspatimizra, on the other hand, in terms of deliberation: "this is to be done by me". Regards, ---------------------------- Paolo Magnone Catholic University of Milan pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT Sat May 8 19:15:26 1999 From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone) Date: Sat, 08 May 99 20:15:26 +0100 Subject: Does the puruSa will? (was: Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) In-Reply-To: <19990505010004.63493.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048654.23782.15897864649619495095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 4 May 99, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Without turning this forum into a discussion list for Indian philosophies Why, I would think Indian philosophy has at least as much right of citizenship in Indology as, say, cultural politics, linguistics and fantalinguistics. > may I point out that adhyavasAya is preceded by the more "purposeful" > activity that is called saMkalpa or saMkalpa-vikalpa? What we are talking > about here demands that we look at the latter terms rather than adhyavasAya, > if for nothing else but the fact that in classical sAMkhya, > buddhi-adhyavasAya-sattva go together, while manas-saMkalpa-rajas go > together. I am not sure that saMkalpa is a more "purposeful" activity. In SK 27 manas is said to partake of the nature of both karmendriya and buddhIndriya. Apparently, it is a (sort of) buddhindrIya because it "grasps" things as senses do (indriyam sAdharmyAt). But at the same time it is a (sort of) karmendriya because it does so by actively "conforming" (saMkalpakam) each distinct passive sensation (aural, visual etc.) into a synthetic whole which is perception. Manas is the organ of synthetic perception, building on the discrete sensations of the different senses. In any case, be it as it may with the respective value of adhyavasAya and saMkalpa, my point was that either (I vote for the former) is the source of deliberation, while the puruSa is utterly devoid of will. Regards, ---------------------------- Paolo Magnone Catholic University of Milan pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm From mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Sun May 9 05:41:03 1999 From: mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Sat, 08 May 99 22:41:03 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit dance and drama Message-ID: <161227048661.23782.18274506029411231221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am reading with much interest the informative discussion on Sanskrit drama and dance traditions for the last few days on the Indology list. I thought I would share with you some information. The major work in this field was of course carried out by Dr. V. Raghavan. His discussion on Sangita literature appeared in the Journal of the Madras Music Academy in the 1930s, providing detailed information on sources for the study of dance and drama. His discussion on the minor dramatic arts appears in his work on Bhoja's Srngaraprakasa in which he often compares the Tamil dance and drama tradition with the Sanskritic tradition. Another early scholar was D. R. Mankad, whose very important work appeared in 1936. Sometime later appeared works by Indu Shekhar and Balwant Gargi, who dealt mainly with major dramatic forms, and by A.K.Warder, who discussed both major and minor dramas,taking dance as a component of minor dramatic art. An important contribution to the investigation into drama was by S.S.Janaki (who passed away recently), who focussed on Bhana. Dr. Kapila Vatsyayan's work, Classical Indian Dance in Art and Literature, is another important work in this field, in which she has discussed some of the major Sanskrit texts on the dramatic arts. K.M.Varma's Natya, Nrtta and Nrtya is also a must read. My own work attempts to understand, analyze and reconstruct the dance tradition of classical India on the basis of 30 Sanskrit texts (from the 2nd through the 18th century). My 1991 book, Movement and Mimesis,refers to many other scholars in this field. One of my articles on the uparupaka, a minor dramatic art form, is forthcoming in the Journal of Hindu Studies (special issue, edited by Bruce Sullivan) this year. As for the question of the inclusion of the southern tradition in the critical discourse on the performing arts, researchers will find a great deal of interest in the early seventeenth century treatise, the Nartananirnaya, of which I brought out a critical edition in 1991. This work is particularly valuable in providing information on regional styles, forms and techniques. Mandakranta Bose Department of Religious Studies/ Director, Programme in Inter-cultural Studies in Asia Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2 mbose at interchange.ubc.ca From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun May 9 06:25:22 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 02:25:22 -0400 Subject: Visistadvaita Vedanta etc. Message-ID: <161227048668.23782.6576530697126356595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/6/99 6:22:29 PM Central Daylight Time, vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM writes: << As is the case with most North Indians, we do not have any strong sectarian affiliations (except the Arya Samajists) and are quite catholic in our religious practices.>> I would like to know if you or members of your devotional community trace any spiritual lineage to somebody like Ramanuja. If so, who are the links in this chain? Since you mentioned AzvArs in one of your earlier postings, among the Agarwals how widespread is the knowledge about AzvArs? <> I would like know when it is ready. Regards From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 9 11:19:54 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 04:19:54 -0700 Subject: Visistadvaita Vedanta etc. Message-ID: <161227048671.23782.101534065189772871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Didn't F. Hardy write a paper something like: "Madhavendra Puri, a link with south indian vaishnavism". Is there a temple, a subshrine that is old enough to Alvars, Andal, etal.,? Sure, Dr. V. Narayanan would know. In a message dated 5/6/99 6:22:29 PM Central Daylight Time, vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM writes: << As is the case with most North Indians, we do not have any strong sectarian affiliations (except the Arya Samajists) and are quite catholic in our religious practices.>> I would like to know if you or members of your devotional community trace any spiritual lineage to somebody like Ramanuja. If so, who are the links in this chain? Since you mentioned AzvArs in one of your earlier postings, among the Agarwals how widespread is the knowledge about AzvArs? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 9 11:27:21 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 04:27:21 -0700 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227048673.23782.9313206189350621362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Aklujkar writes, "The attitude that may be implicit in Peterson's and Scharfe's attempts at identification also needs comment. Both these scholars write as if the TIkA identification does not exist or need not be taken seriously. This is hardly a justifiable view to take of a piece of information that is about one thousand years old; that is unlikely to have been given unless it was known to earlier students and commentators of the VP.." From this, if we take TIKa to be from about 10th century AD, how many years (5 centuries?) earlier was VP written ? What are the currently accepted dates for vAkyapadIya and TIkA? If the intervening period was long, could it be that the identification of tiliGga was a mistake made on the basis of similarity in names? Since I do not have access to some of the critical references, any information from the list will be appreciated. >>> About six-seven centuries separate vAkyapadIya and its TIkA if we take a 5th century date for VP. See p.40,H. G. Coward and K. Kunjunni Raja, The philosophy of the Grammarians, 1990, "Bhart.rhari apparently never wrote a commentary for ch. 3. At present only HelArAja's TIkA (ca. A.D. 1050-1100) is available". V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From satyanarayana3 at YAHOO.COM Sun May 9 12:27:24 1999 From: satyanarayana3 at YAHOO.COM (D Satyanarayana) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 05:27:24 -0700 Subject: Tanagalai and Vadagalai Message-ID: <161227048675.23782.12865849980727238261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am working on the differences between Tenagalai and Vadagalai aspects of Vaisnavism. Shall be grateful to know of any original sources for this purpose. D.Satyanarayana _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sun May 9 14:08:32 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 10:08:32 -0400 Subject: Tanagalai and Vadagalai Message-ID: <161227048678.23782.2949864530512501059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Satyanarayana: It is first of all "Tengalai" (Tamil for DakShiNakala) not "Tanagalai". The "AShTAdashabhedanirNaya" is a Sanskrit work that deals quite extensively about the 18 principal differences in doctrine between the Tengalai and the VaDagalai branches of the Shri-VaishNava SampradAya. It has been published by the French Indological Institute at Pondicherry. Also, Prof. Patricia Mumme (PhD. Univ. of Pennsylvania) did her dissertation on this whole issue. I think her work is entitled "Shri-VaishNava Theological dispute". It has also been published in India. Really speaking, these 18 can reduced to some 4 super important ones. They are: 1. T: God's Grace is Sovereign. It cannot be "bought" by good works. V: Good works invoke the Grace of God. 2. T: Prapatti is mandatory as a means to mokSha. V: Prapatti is an optional means to mokSha. 3. T: ShrI does not share in the Divine Essence. V: ShrI is inseparable from God and shares the Divine Essence. (a la Tengalai this is Duotheism not Monotheism) 4. T: Salvific powers belong to God only. V: ShrI shares in the salvific powers of God. Regards, B.N.Hebbar Adjunct Professor of Eastern Religions George Washington University (Washington DC USA) Lecturer of Indology University of Maryland Honors Program PaNDitaratna, ShAstrasavyaSAchI, VedAntavyAghra From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun May 9 15:24:57 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 11:24:57 -0400 Subject: Tanagalai and Vadagalai Message-ID: <161227048680.23782.191399730815186625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/9/99 9:07:53 AM Central Daylight Time, bhebbar at EROLS.COM writes: << It is first of all "Tengalai" (Tamil for DakShiNakala) not "Tanagalai". >> It cannot be dakSiNakala. I has to be dakSiNakalA. The Tamil words are compounds. vaTakalai = vaTa+kalai. ten2kalai = ten2+kalai. "vaTa" means "northern" and "ten2" means "southern". The equivalent of Ta. kalai (art, science) is Sanskrit kalA. In these usages, the primary meaning of "kalai" is "language" as seen in the AzvAr's usage "centamizum vaTakalaiyum tikaznta nAvar" (periya tirumozi 7.8.4) .referring to brahmins whose tongues 'shine' with Tamil and Sanskrit. Thus "vaTakalai" refers to Sanskrit and "ten2kalai" refers to Tamil. By metonymy, these terms can be taken to mean Sanskrit texts and Tamil texts. Strangely divya prabandha akarAdi, GOML, 1961, glosses kalai only as vastra and zAstra. Like their zaivite counterparts, AzvArs also saw Tamil and Sanskrit as equals. See periya tirumaTal 131 where viSNu is praised as being Tamil and Sanskrit, using the words "ten2n2an2 tamizai vaTamoziyai...". In this context, I am reminded of an earlier message in Indology. In a message dated Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:10:28 PST Shrinivas Tilak wrote: <> It looks as if in the early centuries of the first millennium AD, there indeed were parallel Tamil and Sanskrit universes and there seems to have been friendly interaction between the two. Conflicts over the relative status of Sanskrit and Tamil seems to have started later. Regards S. Palaniappan From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun May 9 11:35:10 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 11:35:10 +0000 Subject: Earliest writing system in the world: Harappan Message-ID: <161227048666.23782.6590081251450293021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I have made the following posting at: http://sarasvati.listbot.com [Context: BBC interview with Prof. Meadow on May 2, 1999] Would appreciate comments. Regards, Kalyanaraman "Please see and hear some audio clips from the BBC interview with Prof. Meadow on May 2, 1999 (who has recently participated with Prof.Kenoyer in the on-going archaeological work in Harappa). It is mirrored at: http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/meadow/meadow.htm "The early reports seem to point to a historic discovery: some of the signs of the Harappan script have occurred on pottery fragments, pointing to an evolution of the script, dating back 5500 years, making this the earliest writing system the world has ever known. "So-called 'plant-like' and 'trident-shaped' markings have been found on fragments of pottery dating back 5500 years (see attached image). According to Dr Richard Meadow of Harvard University, the director of the Harappa Archaeological Research Project, these primitive inscriptions found on pottery may pre-date all other known writing. "Prof. Meadow may be wrong in his surmise that the "Harappan language died out and did not form the basis of other languages." How can he say this? This does not seem to jibe with his statement: "Around 1900 BC Harappa and other urban centres started to decline as people left them to move east to what is now India and the Ganges." "I have prepared a preliminary hieroglyphic dictionary, on the assumption that the language did not die out but is found among TODAY's spoken languages of India, as people moved out of the Sarasvati River basin after the desiccation of the river ca. 1900-1500 BC to the Ganga-Yamuna doab and south of Surat. "I have also proposed that most of the signs can be interpreted as bronze-age weapons, using the rebus method..." ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun May 9 15:54:08 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 11:54:08 -0400 Subject: Ramananda's role in north Indian bhakti Message-ID: <161227048683.23782.13831797226044183991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would appreciate if anybody could give any information connecting Ramananda, Kabirdas, and Tulasidas. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun May 9 16:03:45 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 12:03:45 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit dance and drama Message-ID: <161227048685.23782.2537313544093029918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Burrow derives "ArabhaTI", the name of one of four styles (vRtti) of dramatic portrayal listed in nAtyazAstra from the Dravidian root Ar-. See Collected Papers on Dravidian Linguistics, 1968, p.241-243. Has this been accepted by other Sanskrit scholars? Regards S. Palaniappan From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 9 20:46:39 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 13:46:39 -0700 Subject: Ramananda's role in north Indian bhakti Message-ID: <161227048687.23782.12799971762354976643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not aware if Tuslidasaji met Sant Kabirdas. I do not recall the exact dates of their lives but Tulsidasaji was born around 1523 C.E. and by that time, Sant Kabir, even ifhe were alive, was very old and passed away soon. So, a meeting of the two is quite improbable. In our childhood, we were told the following story about the meeting of Ramananda Svami and Sant Kabir-" Sant Ramananda was a Telugu Brahmin who had emigrated to Kashi and spread the name of Sri Rama there. Sant Kabir was looking for a Satguru, and hearing the fame of Svami Ramanda, he desired to approach him. But since he was a Julaha (weaver) raised by Muslim parents, he was hesistant to approach him (even though Svami Ramananda had several other low caste disciples). So one morning, when it was time for Svami Ramananda to descend the Ghats of Kashi for his ablutions, Sant Kabir lay down on one of the steps. Sant Ramanda, stepped on him and oblvious of this fact, he proceeded forward, being lost in chanting 'Ram Ram.' When Sant Kabir heard these words, he was elated exclaimed that he had now obtained the Mantra. Beyond this information, I am sure a lot must have been written in books, but I am familiar only with the folklore. Portions of works of Kabir and Tulasi are taught as a part of Hindi literature all over North India to school children and I still remember several passages learnt thus in my childhood. Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan Subject: Ramananda's role in north Indian bhakti Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:54:08 EDT I would appreciate if anybody could give any information connecting Ramananda, Kabirdas, and Tulasidas. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 9 20:50:07 1999 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 13:50:07 -0700 Subject: Technology's Impact on So. Asian linguistics Message-ID: <161227048692.23782.233240685522980097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Mike, This is my second example. Prasad ____________________________________________________ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:37:29 EDT In a message dated 98-05-03 16:26:59 EDT, vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU writes: << I disagree with what N. Ganesan said, but the correctness or acceptability of what he said cannot be determined by his CV, or by the length of his publication list or some kind of citation count, but by the particular idea itself. This particular point has always been what impressed me most about modern Western shcolarship, and which I always felt to be welcome contrast to the attitude seen in the legends of Ashtavakra, Anglimala etc. But what I have seen posted in the last few months makes me wonder if Indologists still believe that ideas have to be judged by themselves with no reference to who put it forth. >> I agree with this whole-heartedly. I wish everyone just responds to the ideas posted instead of imputing motives to the person posting it. I have always held that useful information can often come from unlikely sources. Let me give an example. A few months back, in a posting entitled "Tamil words in English" Dr. Ganesan, indicated that English "koel" is derived from Tamil "kuyil' according to a source on the internet. Dr. Sarma responded saying that "the word koel in english is more likely to be derived from telugu kOyila or hindi koyel rather than kuyil of tamil from the affinity sounds." In a later posting, Dr. Ganesan responded, "According to the Oxford dictionary, the word was first used by Erskine in 1826. There is a Erskine hospital in Madurai. It could have come from tamil too." The statements of both Dr. Ganesan and Dr. Sarma seemed reasonable to me. Considering the different sounds found in the words in the three languages, one would naturally assign Hindi to be the more likely source for English "koel". But the possibility of Erskine having lived in the Tamil region seemed to encourage looking at this further. On the face of it, among the three languages, the Hindi form quoted by Dr. Sarma seemed the closest with even the second vowel matching the English form. On the other hand, according to the Oxford dictionary, the word koel first occurs in 1826 in Erskine's translation of Baber's Mem. 323 note, "The koel....has a kind of song, and is the nightingale of HindustAn." The dictionary lists the Hindi word which was the possible source as "ko'il". When this is considered, the significant difference between the Tamil word and the Hindi word 2 is really the radical vowel, "u" in Tamil vs. "o" in Hindi. We seemed to have the good old problem of root vowel "u/o" alternation working here. Everybody knows that when the English borrowed Indian words into English, the source was likely to be the spoken form and not the literary form. One can see that in this process of borrowing, three word forms are at issue: the word as spoken by the native speaker, the word as heard by the Englishman, and the word form he transliterated it into. All three need not be identical. Is there any possibility, then, that what in literary Tamil is "u" is pronounced by Tamils in some cases in such a way that it finally becomes "o" in English. (We should also have the following/derivative vowel to be "i".) In other words, is it possible for a radical "u" to become "o" when followed by a derivative vowel 'i" in actual spoken Tamil? A cursory examination of data reveals English Tuticorin < Tamil tUttukkuTi, a port city in Tamilnadu. The comparison is between the latter parts of the words, i.e., corin and kuTi. Here we find Ta. "u" > Eng. "o" when the following vowel is "i". However, since this word is a compound, I wanted to look at cases where "u" was really in the root. Prior to this, I had accepted as given the basic premise of Burrow- Krishnamurti model of "u/o" alternation in Dravidian. According to this, in a word when the second vowel is "i" or "u" or non-existent, and if the original root vowel was "u", "u" should not change to "o". Based on the case of Tuticorin, I looked at words with root vowel "i/u" and followed by "zero/i/u" as the second vowel. What I discovered was very interesting. I found a number of cases where "u" > "o" even when the second vowel is "i" or "u" or non-existent. Consider the examples given below. In each one of the following cases, the vowel change "u"> "o" occurs, independent of the presence of a second vowel "a". DEDR 4281 Ta. puy, poy - to be pulled out DED 2211 Ta. curi, cori (from Tamil Lexicon) - to whirl DEDR 3728 Ta. nuRukku, noRukku - to crush DEDR 3698 Ta. nuGku, noGku - tender palmyra fruit DED 1368 Ta. kuccu, koccu - tassel ( I do not have ready access to DEDR. I have just a few pages from DEDR. So pardon my mixing up DED and DEDR references.) I have just shown a few examples of this "u">"o". Similar examples can be given for words with radical "i" also from Tamil Lexicon/DEDR. Considering the fact that the Tamil Lexicon favors literary usage, if one were to take a survey of all colloquial forms, I am sure we will find more examples. For instance, the form Ta. meti "to tread on" occurs in Tamil inscriptions. It is not found in the Tamil Lexicon or DED. One should note that based on Burrow-Krishnamurti approach to "i/e"-"u/o" alternation, P. S. Subrahmanyam (Dravidian Comparative Phonology, 1983, p.203) says, "The following criteria will enable one to discover the original Proto-Dravidian vowel: (i) related word in which the root contains a short vowel and is followed by either no derivative element or one that begins with -i or -u; and (ii) a related word in which the root contains a long vowel or a double consonant (for this purpose it is immaterial whether or not such a root is followed by a derivative element beginning with a vowel (including a) because such a derivative element can have no influence on this type of root.)". Based on the evidence presented above, these fundamental assumptions in Burrow-Krishnamurti model of Dravidian "i/e"-"u/o" alternation seem to be questionable. Coming back to English "koel", we can say that depending on the accuracy of word forms we work with, the word could have come from Hindi, Tamil or Telugu. Apparently, there was a Governor Erskine in Madras. I do not know if this Erskine was the same one who translated Baber?s work. If we know more about the places in India the author, Erskine, spent his time, we can say which language would more *probably* have been the source for English "koel". May be people with access to India Office Library can get the information about this person. I should note here that I embarked on this investigation because Dr. Ganesan posted his original note and Dr. Sarma responded to it with a reasonable argument against it. Considering the fact that a satisfactory interpretation of this "i/e"-"u/o" alternation was deemed to be an original contribution of "Telugu Verbal Bases" by Dr. Krishnamurti himself, I think the original posting by Dr. Ganesan has been very useful. If intellectual inquiry is stifled because of the presence or absence of publications, we will all be losers. Regards S. Palaniappan ______________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 9 20:52:32 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 13:52:32 -0700 Subject: Visistadvaita Vedanta etc. Message-ID: <161227048690.23782.10999560079030364227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Venkatraman Iyer Subject: Re: Visistadvaita Vedanta etc. Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 04:19:54 PDT In a message dated 5/6/99 6:22:29 PM Central Daylight Time, vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM writes: << As is the case with most North Indians, we do not have any strong sectarian affiliations (except the Arya Samajists) and are quite catholic in our religious practices.>> Sri Iyer wrote: I would like to know if you or members of your devotional community trace any spiritual lineage to somebody like Ramanuja. If so, who are the links in this chain? Since you mentioned AzvArs in one of your earlier postings, among the Agarwals how widespread is the knowledge about AzvArs? Vishal Replies: None. I acquired the knowledge of Sri Vaisnavism personally and via Dr. V. Narayanan, who was my Guru. Agarwals are not familiar with Alvars. In my family, My paternal grandfather was an Arya Samajist, Paternal Grandmother was a Sanatani Vaishnava, Father is a devotee of Lord Hanuman, my spouse is a Sahadadhari Sikh (and her family hails from Bahawalpur, Multan and Jhang--all in Pakistan now), brother is an atheist, my Maternal Grandparents (with whom I spent my entire childhood) are Punjabi Hindus from Lahore and Amritsar and believe in Vaishno devi and the Sikh Gurus!!! My mother reveres Vedanta and also Buddhism. So, as a family, we donot have any sectarian affiliation. Regards Vishal ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 9 21:38:31 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 14:38:31 -0700 Subject: Vaidiks & Vedic Religion Message-ID: <161227048800.23782.1758096353321047058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Abbas, Except for the questions on Arya Samaj, I think others in this forum can answer your other questions better than I can, because my native area had a strong Arya Samaj influence and my family often adopts their rituals in ceremonies although we are not Arya Samajists. Besides, I have read most of the 66 books of Svami Dayanand and am familiar with most of their early literature. The Aryas consider themselves as Vaidiks and hold that their interpretation of the Vedas is the correct one. Basically, they accept the 4 Veda Mantra Samhitas (Shakala Rigveda, Madhyandina Yajurveda, Saunakiya Atharvaveda and Kauthuma Samaveda) as axiomatic and all other Vedic literature as secondary authority. They absolutely reject all the Puranas, Tantras, Agamas, all Smritis except the 'non interpolated portions' of Manu Smriti, all modern schools of Vedanta, etc. and look at all texts presumably composed 'after Sage Jaimini' as spurious or devoid of much authority. Their liturgical texts use the Samskaravidhi (an anthology of Vedic texts for use in Gryha Rituals) as the basis. The Aryas emphasis on social reform and place a great importance on the use of reason and logic in religious matters. They hold that before the Mahabharata war (which they believe occured in the 32nd Cent. B.C.E.), all humans beings were Hindus and Sanksrit was the Universal Language. They reject idol worship, pilgrimages, fasts etc. and believe in performance of Agnihotra etc. I have not come across any Arya Samjist who can recite the Vedas in the traditional manner (although there might be some) but there are many amongst them who are quite adept in the Vedangas (except Kalpa in the traditional sense). They believe that animal sacrifices are a modern innovation invented by crafty Brahmanas and reject all those rites which enjoin such practices. The Arya Samajists probably account for less than 2% of Indians but their influence has been much greater than their numbers. For instance, the Aryas played a significant role in the spread of the Khari Boli dialect of Hindi (the standard Hindi these days) and lead Suddhi movements to uplift low caste Hindus and convert Non Hindus to Hinduism. As for Agarwals, we claim our descent from King Agrasen of Agreya (modern Agroha in Hissar district of Haryana). Tradiition states that he ruled a city state approximately 200 years after the Mahabharata War. He promoted trade and commerce and every new entrant in his kingdom was supposedly gifted a coin and a brick by all the citizens so that he could construct his house and start his trade. It is said that all his 16 sons refused to succeed in preference to Trading activity, giving rise to the 16 subcastes of Agarwals. Some gotras of this community are Goel, Gupta, Garg, Jindal, Singhal, Kansal, Bansal, Vaish, Varshneya etc. Every year, at the occassion of the Agrasen Jayanti, a procession is taken out by the Agarwal community in most towns and cities of North India. The procession is lead by a painting of 'Maharaja Agrasen' who is depicted as an old Emperor with a dense white beard. Philanthropists of the community have been funding excavations at the supposed cite of the city of Agrasen and this has yielded bricked structures, seals, coins etc, The Govt. of India issued a commemorative stamp 2 decades back which showed a coin, a brick and a picture of King Agrasen. I first encountered traditional Vedics at Poona where I lived for 6 years. My immediate neighbours were Srotriya Rigvedins who could recite the Sakala Rigveda completely with movements of head etc. They also performed rare rituals relying on the Kalpasutras of Asvalayana but used only printed texts. Close to my house was the Veda Pathashala of Guru Ghaisas where the Rigveda was taught. At the 75th Birthday of the Guru, scholars of all the 4 Vedas (mainly from Maharashtra) were invited and I had an opportunity to listen to their recitations. The Atharvanic recitations did not last long. About 7 years back, the Visva Hindu Parisad had invited Vedic pundits from all over India and organized the recitation of Vedic texts at Prayag. To my knowledge, about 1300 showed up and surprisingly, there was a good representation from North and North Eastern India. My Uncle recorded the entire event and I think it covers 23 videotapes of 3 hours duration each although I did not get a chance to see watch any. I once met Sri Ashok Singhal (of VHP) at his house and was informed by him that extensive researches conducted by VHP revealed that oral traditons of 12 Vedic recensions have survived and that VHP has established schools of 50-60 students each where these 12 extant traditions are being taught. Every year, my Uncle invites more than a dozen Rigvedins from Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu and organizes a recitation in his anscestoral house around the time of the 'Magha Mela' (January). Regards, Vishal _____________________ From: Samar Abbas Subject: Vaidiks & Vedic Religion Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 03:33:54 +0000 On Thu, 6 May 1999, Vishal Agarwal wrote: > Agrawals ... are not Vaidiks. Most of us are > Vaishnavas - What would be tha castes that are Vaidiks ? - Are the Arya Samajists classed as Vaidiks ? - Are Vaidiks the followers of what is known in Western text-books as `Vedism' or `Vedic Religion' ? Most books claim that the Vedic religion is dead in India. Is it possible it survives amongst the Vaidiks ? If so, then Vaidiks would be followers of the oldest religion on Earth. - How many Vaidiks are there in India (rough %) ? Samar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sun May 9 21:42:47 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sun, 09 May 99 17:42:47 -0400 Subject: Tanagalai and Vadagalai Message-ID: <161227048694.23782.7925418136645628501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/9/99 11:24:57 AM EDT, Palaniappa at AOL.COM writes: <> Prof. Hebbar had given the correct info to us as "dakShiNakalAryas" and "UttarakalAryas" for Tengalais and VaDagalais respectively. It was our clerical error in tying it in. It is similar to your "I has to be dakSiNakalA" instead of "It has to be dakSiNakalA." Thanks for rest of the info. Students of Prof.Hebbar From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Mon May 10 00:06:43 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Mon, 10 May 99 02:06:43 +0200 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048696.23782.287333535911006629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Thus, Sankara is equating the list of eight in 7.4 with the list of eight > in 13.5, and this is driven more by the internal logic of the text he is > commenting upon, rather than the sAMkhya kArikAs. Verses 7.4 and 13.5 give > different names for the items of the same list, and I see this as > Sankara's way of explaining what may be objected to as internally > contradictory in the text of the gItA. The MBh preserved several widely different "sAMkhya" versions, and clearly the conceptual framework in the gItA is far from uniform. It seems that the later chapters (after the twelfth) represent a terminology closer to classical sAMkhya; and this must have been more familiar for zaGkara. So the reason why he preferred the list in ch.13 might well be because this was the standard sAMkhya version. > All in all, it seems to me that Sankara is giving his > readers new wine (advaita vedAnta) in an old bottle (sAMkhya terminology). Sure! > Now, leaving Sankara aside, the question is one of the relative date of > the kArikAs (i.e. ISvarakRshNa) vis-a-vis the bhagavad gItA. I thought it was more or less the accepted opinion that the BhG is older than the SK. Are there substantial arguments to question this? [In his next posting:] > To say that sAMkhyan terms are known first of all from the > kArikAs, one has to show that the kArikAs precede these ... in time. Sorry for the misunderstanding: when I wrote "first of all" I meant 'eminently' and not 'historically earliest". [On the number of the indriyas:] > The kArikAs opt for thirteen. No: in the SK there are clearly eleven indriyas, see SK 24-27, 49. Thirteen is the number of the components of the antaHkaraNa. Nanda Chandran wrote > the analogy using the > two birds in MundAka Upanishad. One bird which enjoys the world and the > other, the mute spectator silently observing the first bird without being > affected by the experience of the first bird. > The Purusha though conscious is just the witness. It just observes the > changes of prakriti. The two birds - as can be seen from the context of the same passage in the zvetAzvatara IV. 6 & 7 - are not the puruSa and a material ego (or whatever), but two puruSas: one liberated, one bound; and it is the liberated 'bird' that looks on without eating, anaznann abhicAkazIti. > All brAhmanical schools, accept that the Self is eternal. By eternal, they > also accept that it is changeless. I have a feeling that the equation undecaying = unchanging was the invention of advaita, and also I think that its import into sAMkhya was a later development, clearly present only in the yukti-dIpikA. I also think that the conception of kUTastha is not only missing in, it is also inconsistent with the SK. > Ishware Krishna makes the Self devoid of all qualities - even bliss. The puruSa is aguNa in the SK, but it does not mean 'qualitiless', rather 'without the three guNas', i.e. the constituent qualities of prakRti. > Liberation is in empirical terms - the cessation of desire. To > make the Purusha desire, would defeat all purpose. Liberation is the cessation of suffering (also for the Buddha). The path is to overcome wordly desires. The *liberated* puruSa clearly has no inclination towards the prakRti any more: dRSTA mayety upekSakaH (SK 66; He is indifferent *because* he has seen her). Paolo Magnone wrote: > as the milk flows *not* because the calf wills it, but just > *for the sake* of the calf's growth. > What we have here is a sort of built-in teleology which can dispense with > the need of conscious purposes; but in any case, if there is purpose at > all, it is the nature's. [Also Nanda Chandran: > The purpose or will, is that of PrAkriti] The milk flows to feed the calf - but it does not want to feed him; while he *wants* to be fed. Of course all occurrences of artha in the SK can be interpreted as 'advantage', not 'purpose', as is the standard procedure in order to get the later notion of absolutely unchanging soul. But the SK gains in consistency if we abandon this routine. Before creation the puruSa was fine - prakRti could not serve his advantage by her evolution. On the other hand, with a more naive conception of puruSa we can say: he noticed nature and wanted to see her; then he found only death and suffering; so now he wants to be alone again. (Indeed in SK 17 kaivalyArthaM pravRttiH is a symptom of the puruSa). Generally my position is not that there cannot be a SK interpretation without a puruSa willing; rather that there can be one with it - and that it seems to be a more coherent interpretation, but one less in accord with the commentaries. >> A judge [ in Sanskrit, draSTR :-) ] > This is a misrepresentation! draSTR is certainly not meant to > signify a judge in the SK. Sorry [ :-( ] for the misunderstanding. The judge was an example independent of the SK, and the remark in brackets was intended as a joke only; I wanted to show this by the :-) symbol, representing a smiling face [sleeping, I suppose :-) ]. > But surely, when buddhi is > overwhelmed by tamas, hence characterized by ajJAna and the rest, it > cannot be equated with adhyavaSaya in point of fact? I do not know. When even the indriyas are said to be sAttvika ekAdazakaH, it would seem very hard to conceive of a buddhi with a dominance of the guNa tamas. It is not clear, whether a blade of grass has a buddhi or not (it seems that it has); perhaps it has a minuscule buddhi only (after all it grows toward light) or its buddhi might be covered by tamas. The "tAmasaM buddhi-rUpaM" mentioned in SK 23 (which is, I think, a problematic verse from the point of view of textual criticism) is clearly adharma, ajJAna, rAga and anaizvarya; and that seems to be adhyavasAya all right, though *improper* grasping (or conceptualization or understanding). > But at the same time it [the manas] is a (sort of) > karmendriya because it does so by actively "conforming" (saMkalpakam) > each distinct passive sensation (aural, visual etc.) into a synthetic > whole which is perception. Manas is the organ of synthetic perception, > building on the discrete sensations of the different senses. I generally agree: I would translate saMkalpaka as 'coordinator', following gauDapAda (and also nyAya-sUtra IV.2.2, if I understood it correctly), and also implying that manas coordinates the activity of the karmendriyas; i.e. it translates the conceptual commands (or intentions) coming "from above" into vegetative efferent impulses - a nice piece of anachronism, isn't it? :-) With best regards, Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa assistant professor of metaphysics E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 10 10:48:37 1999 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Mon, 10 May 99 03:48:37 -0700 Subject: Technology's Impact on So. Asian linguistics Message-ID: <161227048698.23782.794067919702246129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Mike, Indology is contributing to South Asian linguistics also. Postings in Indology have shown how some significant beliefs regarding i/e - u/o alternation and y/c alternation which have been held as true in Dravidian linguistics for over 40 years are not true. Prasad ______________________________________________ Sun, 14 Jun 1998 Subject= Stomach/womb in Dravidian and -y-/-c- alternation In an earlier posting , I had said that "The placement of DEDR 5259 Ta. vayiRu belly with an implied *-y- seems to be correct even though Kannada has basiR." Krishnamurti disagreed with this saying, " -c- is older as I said earlier. Konda and other SCD languages preserve the s form, Konda vasking(velar nasal)'entrails'. You seem to think that the oldest forms are only foound in Tamil in every respect. What is your basis for taking -y- in vayiRu as older?" An examination of the following DEDR entries and Tamil texts shows why -y- should be older. DEDR 5259 Ta. vayiRu belly, stomach, pauch, womb, centre, heart of a tree, interior, inner space, mind; vayin2 belly, stomach; vayA foetus, womb. Ma. vayaRu belly, stomach, inside receptacle of fruit-seeds... Ko. vi.r (obl. vi.t_-) belly, pregnancy;...To. pi.r (obl. pi.t_-) belly, pregnancy, womb. Ka. basaR(u), basiR, basuR(u), basRu belly, abdomen, womb, pregnancy, embryo, the inside, hold of a ship; basaRi, basURi pregnant woman...KonDa vaski (pl. vasking) small intestines. Pe. vahing (pl.) intestines...Kui vahi intestine, entrails, bowels.... DEDR 5549 Ta. vai (-pp-, -tt-) to put, place, seat, lay by, store up, possess, keep, create, set up; vaippu placing, deposit, treasure; place; earth, land, world, town; vaiyakam, vaiyam, vayam earth, world; vayin2 place. Ma. vekka to put, lay, place, build, keep, retain, deposit, put aside; veppu placing, deposit, treasure; vaikkam what is laid down, deposit, alluvial ground..Ko. vay- (vac-) to keep, place, beget, bear (child)..To. poy- (poc-) to keep, place; beget bear (child). Ka. bay, baycu, baccu, oy to deposit, put aside, hide; bay(a)ke deposit, treasure, hoard; besana, besal, besale birth, production, bringing forth; besal Agu to bear, bring forth; (K.2) vesale pregnant.....Te. vaicu, (K. also) vayicu, (B. K.) vEyu to place, put. Kol. va.y- (va.yt-), (SR.) vAy- to sow; Nk. vay- to sow; vayk- to put, put aside....Kur. uinA (uyyas) to put down; retain, keep back. Malt. oje to keep; lay eggs, bring forth young. [Krishnamurti, Language 39.562, suggests separating into two entries the items meaning ?put, place, keep? and bear, beget? respectively.]... DEDR 5554 Ta. vaiku (vaiki-) to stay, pass the night, dawn; vaikal staying, daybreak, day that has passed away; vaikaRai, vaikuRu daybreak. Ma. vaikuka to stay the night, delay, stay, be late; vaiku-nEram, vai-nEram evening; vaikikka to detain, delay; vaikkam delay. Ka. bay, bay(i)ge evening, evening twilight...Te. vEgu, vEvu to dawn; vEgincu to keep awake (intr.); vEgimpu waking from sleep, keeping awake;...Kol. (SR.) vegeD, (Kin.) vEger. tomorrow....KoNDa vige tomorrow; (BB) vEg-/vIg- to dawn....Kur. bijjnA to dawn, begin to grow light; bijjta?AnA to protract till dawn. Malt. bije to dawn.. According to an earlier posting by Dr. Krishnamurti, " PD *c and *y fell together in most of the languages but the distinciton is preserved by some members (particularly Kannada). where Ka also has an intervocalic -y- (bayal) it goes to PD *y. So Kannada holds the clue for PD reconstriction (Ta. poy = Ka. pusi <*posi 'a lie'; PD *poc-)." If one were to accept the validity of Krishnamurti?s statement, for DEDR 5549 (in the sense of ?to put, place, deposit) and DEDR 5554 (to stay, etc) the PDr. reconstruction would be *vay-. (Krishnamurti does reconstruct *-y- for both of these in Telugu Verbal Bases, p. 496-497) In fact, it is obvious that 5554 and 5549 are related by the simple relationship that when one puts/deposits an object in a place, it stays there. In "A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry", (p.502), V. S. Rajam translates the following lines ".....kaN akan2 cilampil paTuttu vaittan2n2a pARai marunkil eTuttu niRuttan2n2a iTTarum ciRu neRi" (malaipaTukatAm 14-16) as, "very small narrow path (iTTarum ciRu neRi) that looks as if it was raised from the ground and made to stand up (eTuttu niRuttan2n2a) near (maruGkil) the rock which looks as if it was caused to fall down and made to stay there (paTuttu vaittan2n2a) on the spacious mountain (kaN akan2 cilampil)." Note the use of "vai" in a context meaning "to stay". Thus the relationship between putting/depositing and staying is very clear. In fact, it is this concept which forms the basis for the Dravidian words for stomach/womb. Ta. vayiRu stomach/womb is a place where something is deposited/ something stays. Ta. vayin2 which occurs in both DEDR 5259 and 5549 provides a critical link between the two. It means "stomach" as well as "place". This will become clear when we consider the following. kaiyaik kaiyin2 nerikkum; tan2 kAtalan2, vaikum Al ilai an2n2a vayiRRin2aip pey vaLait taLirAl picaiyum........... (kamparAmAyaNam 2.4.10.1-3) A rough translation of the relevant words is "she would crush one hand with another, and would knead the stomach/womb (vayiRRin2ai) where her son/foetus stays (vaikum)." Note the use of the word "vaikum" to describe the stay of the foetus inside the stomach/womb. ...................................................pun2maiyOr vaikuRum narakaiyum nakum vayiRRin2An2. (kamparAmAyaNam 3.10.17.3-4) In this poem, a demon is said to have a stomach (vayiRRin2An2) which was worse/bigger than the hell where bad people stay (vaikuRum). That the stomach is a place where things are put (vai-) is shown by the following lines. "vayiRRin2uL ulaku Ezin2OTu Ezaiyum vaikkum ayirppu il ARRal en2 an2ucan2ai En2am on2Ru Aki eyiRRin2Al eRintu in2 uyir uNTavan2 nAmam payiRRavO nin2aip payantatu nAn2?" en2ap pakarntAn2. (kamparAmAyaNam 6.3.51.1-4) A rough translation is "Did I give birth to you for you to recite the name of the one who became a pig and killed my brother who had the power to put (vaikkum) seven plus seven worlds in his stomach (vayiRRinuL)?" Thus the relationship between vai (to put/deposit), vaiku (to stay), and vayiRu (stomach/womb) is clear from these examples. vayiRu is a derivative of vai. In fact, the examples shown here provide the connection between the words meaning "to put, place, keep? and words meaning ?bear, beget? discussed in DEDR 5549. The Tamil form "vayin2" which was originally included in DED 4299 Ta. vayiRu but not in DED 4565 Ta. vai finds its rightful place in both DEDR 5259 Ta. vayiRu and DEDR 5549 Ta. vai and it seals the relationship beyond doubt. Given this relationship, if we reconstruct *vay- for DEDR 5549 Ta. vai (Ka. bay), and DEDR 5554 Ta. vaiku (Ka. bay, bay(i)ge), we have to reconstruct *vay- for Ta. vayiRu (Ka. basiR) also. This means that -s- in Kannada forms basiR, etc. are not originals. Burrow and Emeneau were right in their placement of DEDR 5549 with an implied *-y-. Regards S. Palaniappan ------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 10 14:51:13 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 10 May 99 07:51:13 -0700 Subject: hAlAsyapurANa and hAlAsyarahasya Message-ID: <161227048701.23782.4723031914241905167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Dr. Ganesan, >Is it possible to know the time of the year when the annual vaZhuvUr >festival of Shiva and the elephant is performed? Thank you for the >information in advance. >Gautama Dear Dr. Vajracharya, The 8 temples spread in Tanjore, South Arcot districts where 'Siva performed 8 different heroic deeds have a) special bronzes, b) specific 'Siva dances, c) festivals on different days of the year, and d) the way the idol of 'Siva is carried in the procession are splendid and belong to atleast, say, 1300-1400 year tradition. According to the Vazhuvuur (in Maayuuram/MayilADuthuRai taluk) Devasthanam publication, (R. Panchanadam Pillai, vazhuvuur aalaya varalaaRu, 1950) this Gajasamhara dance happens in February of each year. In the Tamil month Maasi, magha nakshatram, on the full moon day. Lord Thyagaraja performs ajaba dance in Thiruvaaruur, I am sure the different dances of 'Siva are dealt ably in the excellent work by Rajeshwari. Rajeshwari Ghose, The Tyagaraja cult in Tiruvarur: a study in conflict and accomodation, M. Banarsidass, 1996, 414 p. Pl. check and tell us more. I forgot to mention earlier: There are beautiful Chola bronzes in vazhuvuur. Still unpublished to my knowledge (many Chola bronzes remain that way). 1) Bhikshaadana 2) Mohanamba 3) Parvati, the consort of Gajasamharamurti is standing on the side with little fear and shyness. She is holing the baby Skanda in the right side of her hip. The infant Murukan (skanda) points his finger to Gajasamhara. This Gajasamhara alone is published in S. R. Balasubrahmanyam, Middle Chola temples and C. Sivaramamurti, Nataraja in art, thought, literature. The vazhuvuur, famous for Bharatanatyam gurus of many film stars and Mrinalini Sarabhai, daughter of Ammu Swaminathan, folks say the beauty of Gajasamharamurti is in the sole of his foot being visible. Regards, N. Ganesan >Dr. M. Rabe hoped: > >prompting me to hope you can tell me whether or not any of the > >various recitations of Ziva's games in Madurai include reference >to slaying an elephant demon. Approaching the question from another > >direction, are there any sthala puranic explanations for how the > >mountain Anaimalai, just northeast of the city, came to have this > >name? > > Slaying of the elephant took place at a place called "vazhuvUr" >in Tanjore dt. Tamil textual tradition is unanimous in that; >I have read and heard from Ki. Vaa. Jagannathan, editor of Kalaimakal >and the prime disciple of UVS, that UVS said "vazhuvUr" >comes from "vazhuvaiyUr" where vazhuvai = elephant. >Michael, you must be familiar with the famous Chola gajasamharamurti >from vazhuvUr. Technically very complex and difficult to create >than Natarajas. In this G. bronze from vazhuvur, gaNas >are playing cymbols, With an elephant being slayed and kept upside >down, 'Siva extricates himself out of the carcass in a >spiralling fashion and while dancing. This event is celebrated >in vazhuvuur as an annual festival. There is a huge, hollow elephant >made out of reeds, bamboo, leaves etc., This elephant is >carried in a "uurvalam" from the opposite side of the temple, >The famous Gajasamhara, all decorated and in splendour, comes only >on this day out of the temple. Around 10 P.M, the utsavamUrti >enters the belly of the man-made elephant. That is the climax, >all lights go out for 10 minutes or so, crackers explode: all due to >'Siva fighting the demon. After that an elaborate puja and >feasting. van Buitenan has an one or two page article on >gajasamhara in Kalidasa. Tevaram has 100s of references, >"panaikkai mummata vEzam urittavan, anaittum vETamaam >ampalak kUttan" -appar (7th century CE). Traditionally >'Siva has performed 8 heroic acts, supposed to have >taken place at 8 places. aTTa vIraTTam in Tamil, >to perform each heroic act, he performs a specific dance >at each site. These different dances performed once a year >at that particular vIraTTam, the sculptures associated with >them, tamil/sanskrit relevant passages must be the subject of >a good research topic. > >On the other hand: >Madurai's Anai malai has NO connection to the gajasamhara >legend. Cellinakar PerumpaRRap PuliyUr Nampi (fl. 1228 CE, >acc. to UVS) wrote the first tiruviLaiyADal (NT). >Nampi's tiruviLaiyADal (NT) episode number 36: >The refers to the naming of Madurai because 'Siva converted the >river of poison from a giant cobra into sweet nectar. >The poison was let upon the city by the magic of Jainas. >NT episode no. 26: >The Jaina heretics sent an elephant against the City. >Sundaresvarar petrified the beast as Anaimalai hill. > >This 13th century legend of explaining the name Anaimalai >is the earliest I could find so far. I think >Anaimalai is so named because it resembles a lying >elephant. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Mon May 10 16:58:40 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Mon, 10 May 99 09:58:40 -0700 Subject: Tanagalai and Vadagalai Message-ID: <161227048703.23782.842896816322794076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > In these usages, the > primary meaning of "kalai" is > "language" as seen in the AzvAr's usage "centamizum > vaTakalaiyum tikaznta > nAvar" (periya tirumozi 7.8.4) .referring to > brahmins whose tongues 'shine' > with Tamil and Sanskrit. Thus "vaTakalai" refers to > Sanskrit and "ten2kalai" > refers to Tamil. It is not very clear if the word "kalai" means language even if the context quoted by Dr Palaniappan may seem to suggest that. In another work viz., ciriya tirumaDal, in the opening lines of which the same AzvAr uses the phrase "cIrAr irukalaiyum eytuvAr" meaning " (they) will attain both types (of objects)". The objects here refers to the puruShArtha's already mentioned by the poet a few lines before. The word "both" refers to aRam (dharma) and poruL (artha), so kalai seems to mean here "types" or "categories". _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Mon May 10 17:07:57 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Mon, 10 May 99 10:07:57 -0700 Subject: Tanagalai and Vadagalai Message-ID: <161227048705.23782.6683991773140870632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I seem to have pressed the SEND button before I actually finished. Just wanted to add that the terms "Tenkalai" and "Vadakalai" are of rather recent origin. (16th century according to experts such as KKA Venkatachari (" Manipravala Literature of the Sri Vaishnavas'). Whereas the AzvAr himself would need to be dated to the Ist Millennium AD 8th-10th centuries. Does anybody know if Patricia Mumme discusses the etymology of these terms? Thanks and Warm Regards. --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > In these usages, the > > primary meaning of "kalai" is > > "language" as seen in the AzvAr's usage > "centamizum > > vaTakalaiyum tikaznta > > nAvar" (periya tirumozi 7.8.4) .referring to > > brahmins whose tongues 'shine' > > with Tamil and Sanskrit. Thus "vaTakalai" refers > to > > Sanskrit and "ten2kalai" > > refers to Tamil. > > It is not very clear if the word "kalai" means > language even if the context quoted by Dr > Palaniappan > may seem to suggest that. > > In another work viz., ciriya tirumaDal, in the > opening > lines of which the same AzvAr uses the phrase > > "cIrAr irukalaiyum eytuvAr" > meaning " (they) will attain both types (of > objects)". > > > The objects here refers to the puruShArtha's already > mentioned by the poet a few lines before. The word > "both" refers to aRam (dharma) and poruL (artha), so > kalai seems to mean here "types" or "categories". > > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 10 17:54:48 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 10 May 99 10:54:48 -0700 Subject: Tanagalai and Vadagalai Message-ID: <161227048707.23782.9232762352548119466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri. Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: >so, kalai seems to mean here "types" or "categories". I think so, we have 'aaNkalai' and 'peNkalai', - two 'divisons' in qualities. Was originally vaTakalai referring to the Kanchipuram school which is little North and where Sanskrit was more weighed compared to tenkalai referring to the Srirangam school which gave more importance to Alvars? With kind regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Mon May 10 18:46:32 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Mon, 10 May 99 11:46:32 -0700 Subject: Tanagalai and Vadagalai Message-ID: <161227048709.23782.11967287836813853467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Was originally vaTakalai referring to the > Kanchipuram school > which is little North and where Sanskrit was more > weighed > compared to tenkalai referring to the Srirangam > school > which gave more importance to Alvars? I can't say for sure. But the formal vaDakalai Tamil term for tenkalai is tennAchArya sampradAyam which means the "tradition of the Southern teachers". But the suggestion is quite plausible as vaDakalai's tend to be concentrated mostly in the Northern districts of Tamilnadu viz., North Arcot, South Arcot, Chingleput etc.. Also, a majority of vaDakalai families in Thanjavur and Pudukkottai districts seem to have migrated in the last few centuries from villages in the Kanchipuram area. The same, I think, is true of vaDakalai Srivaishnava families in Karnataka and Andhra. Perhaps the term is geographical in connotation but the geography is probably intra-Tamilnadu. Thanks and Warm Regards. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 10 18:55:31 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 10 May 99 11:55:31 -0700 Subject: Tanagalai and Vadagalai Message-ID: <161227048711.23782.9960297761448094968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Perhaps the term is geographical in connotation but >the geography is probably intra-Tamilnadu. Look at the teachers: vaDakalai sect: tUppul vEdAnta desikan of Kanchipuram. tenkalai sect: maNavALa muni of SethunaaDu (cf. R. Raghava Aiyangar, cEtunATum centamizum, 1920s work. I can get the quote from my library). Another major teacher: PiLLai LokAchaaryar was of Thiruvarangam). _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 10 21:46:59 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 10 May 99 14:46:59 -0700 Subject: Shiva's valorous acts Message-ID: <161227048713.23782.4267594144349856570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1) Cutting off the Brahma's head at Tiru-kaNDiyUr 2) Vanquishing andakAsura at Tiru-kOvalUr 3) tripura dahanam at Tiru-adikai 4) Spoiling Daksha, his father-in-law and his sacrifice at Tiru-paRiyalUr 5) Killing jalandhara at Tiru-viRkuDi 6) Fighting gajAsura at vazuvUr 7) kAma dahanam at kuRukkai 6) Killing yama to aid Markandeya at Tiru-kaDavUr UVS, the editor of Sangam texts, usually quotes the ancient solitary verse (it cannot be dated): pUman2 ciram kaNTi, antakan2 kOval, puram atikai, mAman2 paRiyal, calantaran2 viRkuTi, mA vazuvUr, kAman2 kuRukkai, yaman2 kaTavUr, - intak kAcin2iyil tEman2n2u kon2Raiyum, tiGkaLum cUTitan2 cEvakamE! (1) Appar (fl. ca. 642 A.D.) has a list of these sites: kAviriyin2 karaikkaNTi vIraTTAn2am kaTavUrvI raTTAn2am kAmarucI ratikai mEviyavI raTTAn2am vazuvai vIraTTam viyan2paRiyal vIraTTam viTaiyUrtikkiTamAm kOvalnakar vIraTTam kuRukkaivI raTTam kOttiTTai kuTivIraT TAn2amivai kURi nAvilnavin2 RuraippArkku naNukac cen2RAl naman2tamarum civan2tamaren2 Rakalvar nan2kE. (2) Poem (1) has viRkuTi, In its place, (2) has kOttiTTaikkuTi. Regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 10 22:10:13 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 10 May 99 15:10:13 -0700 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048715.23782.11578501535716861733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: >The MBh preserved several widely different "sAMkhya" versions, and clearly >the conceptual framework in the gItA is far from uniform. It seems that the >later chapters (after the twelfth) represent a terminology closer to >classical sAMkhya; and this must have been more familiar for zaGkara. So >the >reason why he preferred the list in ch.13 might well be because this was >the >standard sAMkhya version. > It is not very clear to me that Sankara either preferred or was more familiar with the standard sAMkhya version. For example, he refers to very non-standard versions of vaiSeshika and pAncarAtra in his sUtrabhAshya. One should, in fact, expect that Sankara was more familiar with the various versions of the one school of thought that he was most interested in contesting. We require a more thorough analysis of Sankara's undisputed works, which is best left alone for the purposes of this discussion. ....... >[On the number of the indriyas:] > > The kArikAs opt for thirteen. >No: in the SK there are clearly eleven indriyas, see SK 24-27, 49. Thirteen >is the number of the components of the antaHkaraNa. Well, it seems as if the SK leaves one with a choice, but itself prefers thirteen. The term trayodaSa-karaNa is found in SK 32 and explicated in SK 33-36. See also SK 40 (linga). The yuktidIpikA attributes a view of eleven organs to vindhyavAsin, who was pre-SK. However, the two numbers, eleven and thirteen, do not necessarily exclude one another. It is eleven if you count the antaHkaraNa as one, and thirteen if it is counted as three-fold, as in SK 33. It is known that other numbers (ten and twelve) were proposed by other pre-SK thinkers. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 11 16:35:19 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 09:35:19 -0700 Subject: Tanagalai and Vadagalai Message-ID: <161227048735.23782.14377017547076865730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Isn't the word pronounced as "kazhlai" rather than "kalai", in Tengalai and Vadagalai. If so, wouldn't it refer to the Tamizh world "kazhlai" which means "branch" ie the Northern branch and the Southern branch of Vishistadvaitam. And isn't one of the major differences between the two streams, the acceptance of scriptures only in Samskrutam (by the Northerners) to the rejection of the works in Tamizh accepted by the Southerners? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue May 11 10:05:20 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 10:05:20 +0000 Subject: Rann (etymology?) Message-ID: <161227048717.23782.8204541446402040660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is rann derived from lavan.a, salt? Or, lavni = big river (Gondi)? rINa mfn. melted , dissolved , vanished S3is3. RN cl. 8. P. A1. %{RNoti} or %{arNoti} , %{-Nute} , %{AnarNa} , %{AnRNe} , &c. , to go , move Dha1tup. xxx , 5 (cf. 4. %{R}.) [Cologne Sanskrit lexicon]. ...ya_nti s'ubhra_ rin.annapah (RV. 8.7.28) "...then the brilliant (Maruts) depart, and the rains have gone"; Sa_yan.a further explains the lexeme: rin.an = as they flow in every direction, sarvatra pravahanti. Is the 'rann' of Kutch is related to these semant. of flow in every direction (as a river joins the sea)? Are there synonyms to denote a salty marsh? Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Tue May 11 09:05:37 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 10:05:37 +0100 Subject: Rann (etymology?) In-Reply-To: <19990511043520.29171.qmail@www0m.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227048721.23782.14935064388464887627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 11 May 1999, S.Kalyanaraman wrote: > Is rann derived from lavan.a, salt? Or, lavni = big river (Gondi)? It is derived from araNya-, "wilderness, jungle". See Turner, A Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages, item 600. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 11 17:28:04 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 10:28:04 -0700 Subject: Tanagalai and Vadagalai Message-ID: <161227048737.23782.2810283936102913464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "kalai" is the term always used, kalai(= Skt. kalA). I heard that Skt. kalA is from Ta. kalai, the root being Tamil 'kal' (=to dig, to learn), (Is it given in Mayrhofer or DED?). Also, vaDakalai sect always revered Alvars' works, In fact, Vedanta Desikan's Tamil poems are very good & one of a kind. Among Srivaishnavas, I know vaDakalai folks coming from non-brahmin castes and who do not know Sanskrit at all. I do not think the following info is correct. Regards, SM --- nanda chandran wrote: > Isn't the word pronounced as "kazhlai" rather than "kalai", in Tengalai and > Vadagalai. If so, wouldn't it refer to the Tamizh world "kazhlai" which > means "branch" ie the Northern branch and the Southern branch of > Vishistadvaitam. > > And isn't one of the major differences between the two streams, the > acceptance of scriptures only in Samskrutam (by the Northerners) to the > rejection of the works in Tamizh accepted by the Southerners? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 11 17:50:11 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 10:50:11 -0700 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048739.23782.14833324370315067957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc writes : >The two birds - as can be seen from the context of the same passage in the >zvetAzvatara IV. 6 & 7 - are >not the puruSa and a material ego (or >whatever), but two puruSas: one liberated, one bound; and it is the > >liberated 'bird' that looks on without eating, anaznann abhicAkazIti. If the Purusha is not already liberated, he can never be liberated. It is to the credit of the SAmkhya that they realized early on the definition of eternal. So I'm not sure that you can equate the two birds in MundAka with an enlightened purusha and an ignorant one. And by this if you mean that Ishvara Krishna meant that the Purusha had to let go of all desires and purify itself, then he would not have been a SAmkhyan but a JainA! >The puruSa is aguNa in the SK, but it does not mean 'qualitiless', rather >'without the three guNas', i.e. the >constituent qualities of prakRti. The SAmkhya derives all the qualities and attributes apart from intelligent consciousness from the three gunAs. So apart from consciousness the Purusha is indeed qualityless. >I have a feeling that the equation undecaying = unchanging was the >invention >of advaita, and also I think that its import into sAMkhya was a later >development, All Indian philosophy right from the Upanishads center around only one thing - the reconciliation between the changing and the changeless. All the founding saints of the respective traditions, both Astika and nAstika are clear that the reality is changeless. Their disciples try to work out the metaphysics between the changing and changeless, with the basic world view provided by their masters. Take for instance the three main streams : BrAhmana, Jaina and the Bauddha. The common sense view for a suffering man who seeks liberation, practicing virtue, is that the Soul would evolve from an impure state to a pure state, resulting in liberation. This is the view of the JainA, who work out a metaphysics of primal matter and multiple Souls. "Purification" of the Soul is what leads to NirvAna. The Buddha in his teachings is obviously hostile towards the concept of the Soul. All things in the world change. So NirvAna - the eternal, the unborn, the uncreated - is that which is beyond change. The early bauddha logicians don't see anything changeless in either the world or our individual Self - So they attribute reality to only the underlying elements of existence. The YogAcArins, reject the atomic theory and assert the reality of only consciousness - but there are indications that even they felt that the consciousness has to be purified ie undergo change. For Ashvaghosa, the ThathathA is the changeless absolute. NAgArjuna rejects both the atomic theory and the consciousness theory, for the fundamental reason, that both cannot stand the test of logic for changelessness. For him, the reality - PrAjnA PAramitA - the changeless absolute - is beyond all human comprehension. The credit should probably go to the SAmkhya for setting right early on the real definition of "eternal" - that it is changeless. If they did not think that reality was changeless, why would they 1. Work out a superimposition theory and attribute all the work only to prAkriti? 2. Why would they define the Purusha only as pure consciousness? 3. And finally why would they cite ignorance as the true cause of bondage? It would have been much easier for them to go the JainA way, with an evolving Self. The same questions would have to be asked about Patanjala Yoga SutrA and the bhAshyam on it by VyAsa - the superimposition theory where the Purusha seeing its distorted reflection in the buddhi, mistakes the reflection for itself. And why would the NaiyAyikas and the Vaishesikas make the Self - non conscious? Even the MimAmsakA PrabhAkara is of the opinion that the Self is both changeless and non conscious. Though MadhvAcharya, the author of Sarva Darshana Samgraha tries to make it out that KumArilla Bhatta was a VedAnti, the MimAmsakA himself seems to have been of the opinion that the Self needs to be purified - which actually fits quite well with his school's philosophy advocating karma. And all the above individuals flourished well before the rise of Advaitam. >He is indifferent *because* he has seen her). Yes. The Purusha has seen that it's prAkriti, who is the real doer, the one who really desires and hence the real sufferer and not himself as he believed. Hence ignorance is removed. This stance is well supported even by the Gita, which in all probability advocates the original SAmkhya as per Kapila. If there seems to be a contradiction in the reconciliation of the Purusha and PrAkriti, it only reflects the logical impossibility of trying to reconcile the changing and the changeless. If as per your alternative interpretation the Purusha desires, then he would always desire and hence they would be no salvation. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From David.Jonsson at DJK.SE Tue May 11 09:30:39 1999 From: David.Jonsson at DJK.SE (David Jonsson) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 11:30:39 +0200 Subject: Srimad Bhagavatam, Caytanya Caritmrita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048725.23782.5675315792121657372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the status of these two works in comparision to Mahabharata and Ramayana? David From David.Jonsson at DJK.SE Tue May 11 09:32:56 1999 From: David.Jonsson at DJK.SE (David Jonsson) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 11:32:56 +0200 Subject: Sait Issa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048723.23782.9867335898743076416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Saint Issa is said to be Jesus. What is the substance in this? Do I hev to make my own opinion. I need to live several lifetimes in order to build my own opinion on everything. I this what reincarnation is all about? How come then that I don't know anything of my previous lifes? Or does that exoerience somehow manifest in myself in some waw? How? David From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 11 20:19:20 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 13:19:20 -0700 Subject: Rigveda: dravidian word kun.d.apa_yya Message-ID: <161227048752.23782.6552539929481329548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "Chandrasekaran, Periannan" wrote: > > But, kun.d.e = bottom of a vessel (Kannada)(DEDR 1693A). Is the word > > in the RV a word drawn from the dravidian substratum? Would appreciate > > comments. > > > > In classical Tamil, > kuNDu = deep as in > "kuNDu cun2ai pUtta ..." (tirumurukARRuppaTai:199) > -->"...[flowers] that blossomed in deep rock wells..." > > " tiN tEr kuzitta kuNTu neTu teruvil" (perumpANARRUppaTai:397) > -->"in the long avenues with deep imprints by the [treads of] > strong chariots " > > There are other phrases such as > "kuNDu kaN akazi" (puRanAn2URu:21:2) > -->"deep moats" CT usage shows that ku.n.ta is not borrowed into Tamil. Are than Old Iranian and IE cognates for ku.n.da (=pot)?? In addition to Chandra's quotations: ku.n.du as "deep", "hole" occurs a lot. Compare the common phrase, "ku.n.d.u, kuzi". ku.n.tu = round vessel; ku.n.tai = earthen pot; ku.n.taa, ku.n.taan2 = pot; ku.n.tam = tank, pot, pit etc., Agastya, the kalasha muni, is famous in Java and Kau.n.dinyavarman is the founder of Funan; CT commentator says agastya leads the vELir expansion to the South. Is kau.n.di.nya from ku.n.da? SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 11 21:10:16 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 14:10:16 -0700 Subject: Kau.n.dabha.t.ta Message-ID: <161227048753.23782.18394350517548896589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is the Sanskrit grammarian's name, kau.n.dabha.t.ta formed from ku.n.da? In medieval kannada inscriptions, temple donors have a honorary title - kAvuNDa, (variants: gAvuNDa, kAmuNDa, gAmuNDa). Is this kAvuNDa a learned back-formation from kauNDa? (like a) vaidika, veda b) bhautika, bhuuta pairs) OR, the ta. explanation kA + miNDan2? The ta. explanation is hard for me to buy. Thanks in advance, SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 11 23:30:47 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 16:30:47 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048756.23782.5724965820391106530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Also, vaDakalai sect always revered Alvars' works, In fact, >Vedanta Desikan's Tamil poems are very good & one of a kind. Yes, it's true that VedAnta Desikan himself has written some works in Tamizh. My suggestion was based on a conversation I'd with a Vadagalai follower, sometime back, who I THOUGHT said that his sect followed only Samskrutam works. Maybe I was mistaken. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue May 11 16:09:11 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 17:09:11 +0100 Subject: [Announce] R. Salomon London Talk on Buddhist Scrolls fr. Gandhara (fwd) Message-ID: <161227048733.23782.5972063635108269592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Announcement Lecture by RICHARD SALOMON (University of Washington): Buddhist Scrolls from Gandhara: The British Library Kharosthi manuscripts on Tuesday 25th May 1999 at 6:15 pm at the: The British Library Conference Centre 96 Euston Rd London NW1 2DB (Near King's Cross/St.Pancras) Tickets ?5.00 (concessions ?3.50) As the Dead Sea Scrolls have changed our understanding of Judaism and early Christianity, so a set of 29 fragmentary birch bark scrolls recently acquired and conserved by the British Library promise to provide a window into a crucial phase of the history of Buddhism in India. In this illustrated lecture to launch his new book on the subject. Professor Richard Salomon of the University of Washington, who heads The British Library/University of Washington Early Buddhist Manuscripts Project, will describe the methods with which his team is deciphering the texts and seeking to evaluate their significance. As His Holiness the Dalai Lama has said, 'These scrolls are believed to be the oldest surviving Buddhist texts ever discovered.They provide us with the earliest written testimony of the original words of the Buddha. They will provide fascinating insights into how the teachings of the Buddha were studied, preserved, and understood nearly 2000 years ago.' From d53 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue May 11 15:31:19 1999 From: d53 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Thomas Lehmann) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 17:31:19 +0200 Subject: Colloquium: The Pandit Message-ID: <161227048731.23782.17655780952951688083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Announcement ============ Colloquium "The Pandit: The Future of Traditional Sanskrit Scholarship" 12. - 14. July 1999 Department of Classical Indology South Asia Institute University of Heidelberg Programme under: http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/IND/pandite.htm ___________________________________________________________ Axel Michaels e-mail: axel.michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Dept. of Classical Indology South Asia Institute of the University of Heidelberg Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 69120 Heidelberg Germany ____________________________________________________________ From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Tue May 11 17:37:51 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 19:37:51 +0200 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048742.23782.13816369781922603414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >> in the SK there are clearly eleven indriyas, see SK 24-27, 49. Thirteen >> is the number of the components of the antaHkaraNa. > > Well, it seems as if the SK leaves one with a choice, but itself prefers > thirteen. Sorry for the lapsus: thirteen is obviously the number of the components of the karaNa. As for the number of indriyas, to me the SK text seems unambiguous. sAttvika ekAdazakaH pravartate vaikRtAd ahaMkArAt, the sattvic group of eleven originates from the vaikRta ahaMkAra (SK 25), and the eleven is the ten indriyas plus manas, which is also an indriya, being similar (indriyaM ca sAdharmyAt, SK 26-27). As they originate from (one aspect of) the ahaMkAra, they cannot in any way include the buddhi or the ahaMkAra. Regards, Ferenc From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Tue May 11 17:49:28 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 19:49:28 +0200 Subject: Q: eddress of Sampurnanand Sanskrit University Message-ID: <161227048744.23782.11117746470618917628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, can anybody help me with the e-mail address of a respectable sanskritist at the Sampurnanand Sanskrit University in Benares? (The name may be misspelt as I have never seen it written.) The general idea is that a colleague and I want to spend a few months in India studying the still living Sanskrit tradition: how it is spoken, how it is traditionally taught, how different kinds of texts are recited etc. A friend suggested the above-named university as a good starting-point; however I would be also grateful for alternative ideas, provided the suggested institute has e-mail. (I must get some reply from them very fast because of the grants deadlines here.) Thank you in advance, Ferenc From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Wed May 12 03:47:17 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 20:47:17 -0700 Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? Message-ID: <161227048758.23782.7460017430566373340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is worth noting in this context that Classicl Tamil seems to employ the word nizal in the contradictiory senses of shadow *and* light/lustre/brightness. "nizal tikaz nIla nAkam nalkiya kalingkam..." (cirupANARRuppaTai: 95-96) -->"...the lustrous blue cloth [slough] yielded by the cobra" "....vEl nizal ...." (malaipaTukatAm: 88) -->"..brightness of the spear.." Regards Chandra > -----Original Message----- > From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan [mailto:Palaniappa at AOL.COM] > > Are there other languages where the word for day is based on > the word for > night? > > Regards > S. Palaniappan > I also see that in CT, the word "nizal" is used for shadow or image as well as for light, sheen, lustre. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue May 11 20:04:16 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 00:04:16 +0400 Subject: addresses Message-ID: <161227048788.23782.1784096391477233523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, does anybody know e-mail or postal addresses of 1. Prof. Jagdish Narain Tiwari, formerly of Benares Hindu University, now retired and living in Delhi; 2. Professor S.N.Roy who was (in 1990) the Head of the Department of Ancient History, Culture and Archaeology at Allahabad University? Many thanks in advance, Yaroslav Vassilkov ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu vassilkov at hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed May 12 00:06:15 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 00:06:15 +0000 Subject: Rigveda: dravidian word kun.d.apa_yya Message-ID: <161227048746.23782.1958976916999677005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The r.ca is RV 8.18.11: ...pran.apa_tkun.d.apa_yya Sa_yan.a refers to kun.d.apa_yya as the name of a ceremony. Pa_n.ini (3.1.130) confirms this: in this ceremony Soma is drunk from a vessel called kun.d.a and this is said to b te pran.apa_t = tava raks.ita_, the protector of you, Indra... In some translations, Kun.d.apa_yya is interpreated as a name, a grandson of Indra. [an indication that indra = indha, kindling ember]. n. [%{as} m. L.] , a bowlshaped vessel , basin , bowl , pitcher , pot , water-pot Ka1tyS3r. MBh. &c.; a vessel for coals R. v , 10 , 16 &c. (Cologne Sanskrit lexicon) But, kun.d.e = bottom of a vessel (Kannada)(DEDR 1693A). Is the word in the RV a word drawn from the dravidian substratum? Would appreciate comments. Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Wed May 12 16:44:33 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 06:44:33 -1000 Subject: wall lizard and vishnu In-Reply-To: <19990512144825.54255.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048772.23782.14552308165862490872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 12 May 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Have seen a wall lizard sculpture very near the mUlabera > of the Kanchipuram varadarAja(aruLALa) perumAL temple. > In some other Vishnu temples too, in South East Asia > also. > > Is there any temple legends connecting wall lizard (palli) > with Vishnu? In Alvars? In Vaishnava works from Sanskrit? Well... Vishnu is known as "thiruvarangaththil palli kolbavan". :-) :-) Sorry for the ridiculous joke. Credit goes to Dr. J. Chandrasekhar of I.I.Sc, Bangalore. Regards, Raja. PS: Translation of joke for non-Tamil speakers: "thiruvarangaththil palli kolbavan" == he who kills lizards in Srirangam "thiruvarangaththil paLLik koLbavan" == he who reclines in Srirangam == Vishnu From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 12 14:48:25 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 07:48:25 -0700 Subject: wall lizard and vishnu Message-ID: <161227048765.23782.6690096547113350185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Have seen a wall lizard sculpture very near the mUlabera of the Kanchipuram varadarAja(aruLALa) perumAL temple. In some other Vishnu temples too, in South East Asia also. Is there any temple legends connecting wall lizard (palli) with Vishnu? In Alvars? In Vaishnava works from Sanskrit? Thanks for any leads, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 12 15:41:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 08:41:29 -0700 Subject: address: John Marr Message-ID: <161227048769.23782.1691409211929236196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I need the address of Dr. John Marr; Before retirement, he was with SOAS, that post went to Stuart Blackburn now. His postal address & email (if any) are wanted. Thanks, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 12 15:42:53 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 08:42:53 -0700 Subject: address: Dr. Rajsehwari Ghose Message-ID: <161227048770.23782.8071745428263649255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think Dr. Rajeshwari who worked on Tiruvarur temple of Swami Tyagaraja in 1970s (the book came in 1996) is in Hong Kong. Does anyone have her email address? Thanks, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 12 14:36:41 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 10:36:41 -0400 Subject: Srimad Bhagavatam, Caytanya Caritmrita Message-ID: <161227048763.23782.3457749468344669974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Jonsson: Are you asking this question within the context of the Caitanya SampradAya or outside it? If outside, then it depends on what Hindu group you are talking of. For example, in the RAmAnuja and the MADhva SampradAyas, all three, i.e. RAmAyaNa, BhArata and BhAgavata are all considered equally authoritative. Though a rider may be put here. When the RAmAnujites refer to the "PurANaratna" they mean the ViShNupurANa, whereas when the Madhvites refer to the "PurANaratna" they mean the BhAgavatapurANa. Anyways, the Caitanya CaritAmRta would not be considered either canonical or authoritative by any Hindu group OUTSIDE the Caitanya SampradAya. If inside the Caitanya tradition, the Srimad BhAgvatam is given the highest status. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 12 17:55:07 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 10:55:07 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048783.23782.8960924394607593541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Balaji Hebbar wrote: > The > KarnAtak Shri-VaiShNavas are of three sub-groups, i.e. the > Hemmiges, the HebbArs and the MaNDyams. The Hemmiges are all > VaDagalais. The MaNDyams are all STAUNCH Tengalais owing > allegience to the Yadugiri-YatirAja MaTha at MelukoTe. Most > HebbArs are VaDagalais with a small Tengalai group among them. Around Gorur on the Hemavati river banks, there are 16 gramas, called ashTagrAma. A friend from Gorur tells me that most iyengars fro those 16 grAmas do not belong to the three groups you mention. What is the name of their group? Regards. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Wed May 12 19:13:43 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 12:13:43 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048785.23782.8612342931026567757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Balaji Hebbar wrote: > > Though this is generally true, one cannot be > rigid on this > because the Tengalais have several > "tirumaligai-s" (apostolic > seats) at KAnci and the VaDagalais have > similarly some at > Srirangam. In fact the AnDavan MaTha (a > major > VaDagalai > sannyAsa pItha) is based in Srirangam. Well, I am not using evidence of buildings or the location of acharyas for voicing a supposition. That can be quite misleading. For example, with Srimad AnDavan in Sri Rangam and the late Sri U.Ve. Prativadi Bhayankaram Annangaracharya in Kanchi, one may be tempted to draw the conclusion that tenkalais are from the North and the vadakalais are from the South! There is far more solid ground for supposing that vaDakalais are originally from points North in Tamilnadu and the tenkalais are predominantly from points south. For this one needs to look at the origins of the brahmana adherents of Sri Vaishnavism in Tamilnadu in the 9th - 14th centuries. Their numbers seem to have been drawn largely from the cOziA (forelock) sub sect of Brahmins or the VaDamA ("northern") sub sect. There is no other sub sect represented among the AzvArs and among the SriVaishnava pUrvAchAryA's. In fact the Brahmana AzvArs are all cOziA. Also, today most scholars agree that the numbers of the tenkalai sect were drawn, in a large measure, from the cOziA sub-sect while a large number of the vadakalai sect have vaDamA smArta origins. (cf N. Subrahmanyam "The Brahmin in the Tamil Country"; N. Jagadeesan, "History of Sri Vaishnavism in the Tamil country"). Of course there are a few distinguished vaDama's among Tenkalai's (e.g., maNavALa mAmunikaL who's from Sikkil KiDAram near modern AlvAr tirunagari in Tirunelveli District) and cOziA's among vaDakalai's. In aid of a clearer picture, let me add that historically the vaDama's were from the Kanchipuram-North Arcot area while the cOziA's were from modern Thanjavur district and points further south. One will get evidence for this i.e., the original sectarian origins of the Sri Vaishnavas, scattered throughout literature. For example, a zAkha unrepresented in the South (e.g., Jaiminiyas) except among the Nambudiris of Kerala, will also have a few adherents in some villages in Tirunelveli. (cf JF Staal, "Nambudiri Veda Recitation"). It is scarcely a coincidence that these adherents are cOziA brahmins and also happen to be tenkalai's. To substantiate this in a scientific manner, one will have to reconstruct a definitive history of the brahmins in Tamilnadu, using evidence like gotra, pravara , sUtra, zAkha etc. as also the inclusion or exclusion of specific phrases in daily ritual like sandhyavandana etc. This however has not been done to-date. But repositaries of communal memory like the late Sankaracharya of Kanchi as well as some Vaishnava Acharyas mention this in conversations. The predominantly geographic nature of the terms vaDakalai and tenkalai, IMHO, is quite unmistakable. > > Further, all KarnAtak Shri-VaiShNavas are not > VaDagalais. In my post I had refered to "vaDakalai Srivaishnava families in Karnataka" which I think is quite different from the conclusion you have drawn above. Thanks and Warm Regards. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 12 16:50:24 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 12:50:24 -0400 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048774.23782.10308034206544180243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: "But the suggestion is quite plausible as vaDakalai's tend to be concentrated mostly in the Northern districts of Tamilnadu viz., North Arcot, South Arcot, Chingleput etc.. Also, a majority of vaDakalai families in Thanjavur and Pudukkottai districts seem to have migrated in the last few centuries from villages in the Kanchipuram area. The same, I think, is true of vaDakalai Srivaishnava families in Karnataka and Andhra." Though this is generally true, one cannot be rigid on this because the Tengalais have several "tirumaligai-s" (apostolic seats) at KAnci and the VaDagalais have similarly some at Srirangam. In fact the AnDavan MaTha (a major VaDagalai sannyAsa pItha) is based in Srirangam. Further, all KarnAtak Shri-VaiShNavas are not VaDagalais. The KarnAtak Shri-VaiShNavas are of three sub-groups, i.e. the Hemmiges, the HebbArs and the MaNDyams. The Hemmiges are all VaDagalais. The MaNDyams are all STAUNCH Tengalais owing allegience to the Yadugiri-YatirAja MaTha at MelukoTe. Most HebbArs are VaDagalais with a small Tengalai group among them. To answer Nanda Chandran's point: The Shri-VaiShNava SampradAya is called Ubhaya-VedAnta for precisely this reason that they accept as EQUALLY authoritative the Sanskrit Vedas and the Tamil AzhvAr Prabandhams. Hence both Tengalais and VaDagalais accept both. The question then is one of EMPHASIS. The VaDagalais tend to lay emphasis on the Sanskritic side, the VaDagalais on the Tamil side. All this of course IN ADDITION TO the 18 theological differences between them. We must remember that VedAnta Deshika (the VaDagalai "Chief") also wrote in Tamil besides Sanskrit and Pillai LokAcArya (the Tengalai "Chief") wrote in Sanskrit besides Tamil. So it is clearly a question of EMPHASIS only. Regards to all, B.N.Hebbar Adj Prof. of Eastern Rels George Washington University Washington DC From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 12 17:14:41 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 13:14:41 -0400 Subject: International Vesak Puja Message-ID: <161227048776.23782.4139085328077284915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> International VESAK PUJA and Festival is being celebrated by the Washington Area Buddhist Community of 12 nationalities. The International Buddhist Community has among other plans to start a Buddhist College in the Washington Area. All are invited to attend the festivities on Sunday May 23rd at Wat Thai DC @ 13440 Layhill Road, Silver Spring, MD (USA). Temples participating: THERAVADA GROUP 1. Sri Lankan Buddhist VihAras of Washington DC Metro Area 2. Burma Buddhist Society 3. Wat Thai 4. Wat Lao Buddhawong 5. Cambodian Buddhist Temples of Washington DC and Richmond 6. Vietnamese TheravAda Temple MAHAYANA GROUP: 1. Avatamsaka Hermitage (Hua-Yen school of Chinese Buddhism) 2. US-Zen Institute (Ch'an school of Chinese Buddhism) 3. Hau Man Sa (Son school of Korean Buddhism) 4. Bo Rim Sa (Son school of Korean Buddhism) 5. Ekoji Buddhist Temple (Jodo Shinshu school of Japanese Buddhism) 6. Won Buddhism USA (Won school of Korean Buddhism) 7. Vietnamese MahAyAna Temples of Washington DC VAJRAYANA GROUP: 1. Sakya Phuntsok Ling (Sakyapa sect of Tibetan Buddhism) 2. Kunzang Palyul Choling (Nyingmapa sect of Tibetan Buddhism) 3. Shambala Center Program: 8-11 AM: TheravAda, MahAyAna and VajrayAna PUjas and Meditations 11-12 Noon: Offering of Food to monks 12-1 PM: Ethnic Lunch Festival 1-2 PM: Lectures 2-4 PM: Cultural Program FREE ADMISSION BUT Registration Required. B.N.Hebbar Member Executive Committee International Buddhist Committee From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 12 17:35:18 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 13:35:18 -0400 Subject: VMS Conference Message-ID: <161227048780.23782.10868830207235975834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The VISHVA MADHVA SANGHA will hold its annual conference at The Bharathiya Temple 6850 N.Adams Road, Troy, MI-48098 on the 29th and 30th of May, 1999. HIGHLIGHTS of Conference: 1. Possible visit of His Holiness Sugunendra TIrtha, 30th Pontiff of the Puttige MaTha of UDupi, Jagadguru MadhvAcArya SamathAna. Grand Pontifical PUja to the presiding deity of the Puttige MaTha (Upendra-ViTThala) given to the first pontiff of the MaTha by Madhva himself. All doctrinal issues with regard to Dvaita VedAnta can be clarified with the pontiff. 2. VidyabhUsana music concert of songs composed by the HaridAsas. 3. Talk by B.N.Hebbar "On the Substance-Attribute relationship in VishiShTAdvaita and Dvaita VedAntas and the historical debates on the issue between the two schools" FREE ADMISSION but Register with me by e-mail, if you wish to attend. bhebbar at erols.com B.N.Hebbar Director of Education Vishva Madhva Sangha From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 12 21:46:31 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 14:46:31 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048793.23782.1107812514724025909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: >In aid of a clearer picture, let me add that >historically the vaDama's were from the >Kanchipuram-North Arcot area while the cOziA's were >from modern Thanjavur district and points further >south. There is a further sub-division among vaDamas,. The people from Kanchipuram-Arcot areas being called vaDadeSattu vaDamas and the vaDamas in the Tanjavur area are called cozhadeSattu vaDamas. The latter are distinct from the cozhias. The vaDadeSattu vaDamas refer to their cozhadeSa brethren as 'tekkEttiyAn' (southerners). This could complicate the geographical picture, as the cozhadeSattu vaDamas seem to have been in the Tanjavur area from the 9th century or so, and I would assume that some of them became SrIvaishNavas too. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Wed May 12 21:56:44 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 14:56:44 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048795.23782.12336249377022880549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > --- Balaji Hebbar wrote: > > Around Gorur on the Hemavati river banks, there are > 16 gramas, > called ashTagrAma. A friend from Gorur tells me that > most iyengars fro those 16 grAmas do not belong to > the three groups you mention. It appears that in addition to the 3 groups as above viz., HemmigeyAr, MandayattAr, Hebbar, there are other groups who call themselves TirumalaiyAr, BhattarAchAr, MarudUrAr, Prativadi BhayankarattAr, SomAsiAnDAr, NallAn ChakravartiyAr, embAr, IcchambADiyAr, kILanATTAr, ATTan kUTTattAr etc.. Some of these are endogamous while some others e.g., the NallAn ChakravartiyAr, are exogamous by definition. I'm sure one can get a lot more from a source book such as The Mysore Tribes and Castes. Thanks and Warm Regards. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 12 22:16:35 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 15:16:35 -0700 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048797.23782.11679073535826949253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: >Quality is, of course, a rather vague term; some would distinguish it from >attributes etc.; in a formal sense, however, there can be no doubt that >even >the vedAnta Atman has some qualities, e.g. nitya, mukta. In the early and Strictly speaking, in advaita vedAnta, these are not so much positive attributes of the Atman, as the absence of the opposite, e.g. nitya means not anitya, mukta means not baddha, etc. See, for example, Sankara's comments on the upanishadic line satyam jnAnam anantam brahma. >classical sAMkhya I think that puruSa, clear consciousness, can have >qualities: the qualities that qualify consciousness. I think this is a question of talking at cross-purposes because of translational limitations. Quality, to an Indian ear, seems to imply guNa, which of course, the sAMkhyan purusha is devoid of, technically. But it is a different question whether the purusha is viSishTa or not, which is what you are saying. A different word than 'quality' would clear the issue. >think thoughts with propositional content: in SK 64 it must be the puruSa >who thinks: "the tattvas are not me; they are not mine; I am not the >tattvas" (evaMtattvAbhyAsAn "nAsmi na me nAham" ity). Note that the content here is purely negational, so that this brings up the nature of negation in sAMkhya. The issue might be better understood by contrasting it with the mImAMsA, which gives abhAva or anupalabdhi the status of a separate pramANa, whereas the sAMkhya does not. >?From another angle, what does the purusha think with? After all, the apparati of awareness such as manas and buddhi are classed together with the tattvas. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From rajarshi at SMGINC.COM Wed May 12 14:50:08 1999 From: rajarshi at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 15:50:08 +0100 Subject: Rigveda: dravidian word kun.d.apa_yya Message-ID: <161227048767.23782.2536570199023731015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I am a new member of the list. I just wanted to add that in hindi and bengali and probably other indian languages also kund signifies a deep lake or tank. there are place names like beas kund etc... there is a common bengali last name "kundu" does it indicate a proffession say a potter ? From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Wed May 12 17:38:52 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 19:38:52 +0200 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048790.23782.11127725850411084718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [In reply to nanda chandran] Dear Nanda, >The SAmkhya derives all the qualities and attributes apart from intelligent >consciousness from the three gunAs. So apart from consciousness the Purusha >is indeed qualityless. Quality is, of course, a rather vague term; some would distinguish it from attributes etc.; in a formal sense, however, there can be no doubt that even the vedAnta Atman has some qualities, e.g. nitya, mukta. In the early and classical sAMkhya I think that puruSa, clear consciousness, can have qualities: the qualities that qualify consciousness. So probably they won't be spatial (though some would say that it is all-pervading, vyApin), and even in late sAMkhya puruSas are many, separate, private, conscious and unproductive. Though it is quite controversial, it seems that puruSas even think thoughts with propositional content: in SK 64 it must be the puruSa who thinks: "the tattvas are not me; they are not mine; I am not the tattvas" (evaMtattvAbhyAsAn "nAsmi na me nAham" ity). >The credit should probably go to the SAmkhya for setting right early on the >real definition of "eternal" - that it is changeless. If they did not think >that reality was changeless, why would they 1. Work out a superimposition >theory and attribute all the work only to prAkriti? 2. Why would they define >the Purusha only as pure consciousness? 3. And finally why would they cite >ignorance as the true cause of bondage? 1. Work - bodily work - is done by matter and affects matter; soul cannot do it for many reasons, e.g. because it is non-spatial. 2. Pure means probably 'undefiled', and it is a rather general assumption in some corners that the spiritual sphere is superior, and defilements are bodily in origin ("carnal" desires etc.). 3. If the soul is indeed superior it cannot be bound by what is inferior; and as it is conscience, some negative _mental_ property must be the cause of bondage. -----Original Message----- From: nanda chandran To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 1:52 AM Subject: Re: Does Purusha will? >Ferenc writes : > >>The two birds - as can be seen from the context of the same passage in the >>zvetAzvatara IV. 6 & 7 - are >not the puruSa and a material ego (or >>whatever), but two puruSas: one liberated, one bound; and it is the >> >liberated 'bird' that looks on without eating, anaznann abhicAkazIti. > >If the Purusha is not already liberated, he can never be liberated. It is to >the credit of the SAmkhya that they realized early on the definition of >eternal. So I'm not sure that you can equate the two birds in MundAka with >an enlightened purusha and an ignorant one. > >And by this if you mean that Ishvara Krishna meant that the Purusha had to >let go of all desires and purify itself, then he would not have been a >SAmkhyan but a JainA! > >>The puruSa is aguNa in the SK, but it does not mean 'qualitiless', rather >>'without the three guNas', i.e. the >constituent qualities of prakRti. > >The SAmkhya derives all the qualities and attributes apart from intelligent >consciousness from the three gunAs. So apart from consciousness the Purusha >is indeed qualityless. > >>I have a feeling that the equation undecaying = unchanging was the >>invention >>of advaita, and also I think that its import into sAMkhya was a later >>development, > >All Indian philosophy right from the Upanishads center around only one thing >- the reconciliation between the changing and the changeless. All the >founding saints of the respective traditions, both Astika and nAstika are >clear that the reality is changeless. Their disciples try to work out the >metaphysics between the changing and changeless, with the basic world view >provided by their masters. > >Take for instance the three main streams : BrAhmana, Jaina and the Bauddha. > >The common sense view for a suffering man who seeks liberation, practicing >virtue, is that the Soul would evolve from an impure state to a pure state, >resulting in liberation. This is the view of the JainA, who work out a >metaphysics of primal matter and multiple Souls. "Purification" of the Soul >is what leads to NirvAna. > >The Buddha in his teachings is obviously hostile towards the concept of the >Soul. All things in the world change. So NirvAna - the eternal, the unborn, >the uncreated - is that which is beyond change. The early bauddha logicians >don't see anything changeless in either the world or our individual Self - >So they attribute reality to only the underlying elements of existence. The >YogAcArins, reject the atomic theory and assert the reality of only >consciousness - but there are indications that even they felt that the >consciousness has to be purified ie undergo change. For Ashvaghosa, the >ThathathA is the changeless absolute. NAgArjuna rejects both the atomic >theory and the consciousness theory, for the fundamental reason, that both >cannot stand the test of logic for changelessness. For him, the reality - >PrAjnA PAramitA - the changeless absolute - is beyond all human >comprehension. > >The credit should probably go to the SAmkhya for setting right early on the >real definition of "eternal" - that it is changeless. If they did not think >that reality was changeless, why would they 1. Work out a superimposition >theory and attribute all the work only to prAkriti? 2. Why would they define >the Purusha only as pure consciousness? 3. And finally why would they cite >ignorance as the true cause of bondage? > >It would have been much easier for them to go the JainA way, with an >evolving Self. > >The same questions would have to be asked about Patanjala Yoga SutrA and the >bhAshyam on it by VyAsa - the superimposition theory where the Purusha >seeing its distorted reflection in the buddhi, mistakes the reflection for >itself. > >And why would the NaiyAyikas and the Vaishesikas make the Self - non >conscious? > >Even the MimAmsakA PrabhAkara is of the opinion that the Self is both >changeless and non conscious. Though MadhvAcharya, the author of Sarva >Darshana Samgraha tries to make it out that KumArilla Bhatta was a VedAnti, >the MimAmsakA himself seems to have been of the opinion that the Self needs >to be purified - which actually fits quite well with his school's philosophy >advocating karma. > >And all the above individuals flourished well before the rise of Advaitam. > >>He is indifferent *because* he has seen her). > >Yes. The Purusha has seen that it's prAkriti, who is the real doer, the one >who really desires and hence the real sufferer and not himself as he >believed. Hence ignorance is removed. This stance is well supported even by >the Gita, which in all probability advocates the original SAmkhya as per >Kapila. > >If there seems to be a contradiction in the reconciliation of the Purusha >and PrAkriti, it only reflects the logical impossibility of trying to >reconcile the changing and the changeless. > >If as per your alternative interpretation the Purusha desires, then he would >always desire and hence they would be no salvation. > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed May 12 22:48:34 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 22:48:34 +0000 Subject: Rigveda: dravidian word oka, home Message-ID: <161227048778.23782.3406757515523826660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The r.ca is: anu pu_rva_n.yokaya_ sa_mra_jyasya sas'cima mitrasya vrata_ varun.asya di_rghas'rut (RV 8.025.17) Translation (Sa_yan.a): We observe the ancient rites of the imperial Varun.a and the renowned Mitra, (rites) that are good for (our) dwelling. [Dwelling: okya_ = oko gr.ham tasmai hita_ni karma_n.i]. oka m. (%{uc} Comm. on Un2. iv , 215) , a house , refuge , asylum (cf. %{an-oka-zAyin}) ; a bird L. ; = %{vRSala}T. ; conjunction of heavenly bodies L. (Cologne Sanskrit lexicon) okka patrilineal joint family (Kod.agu); okkia = a dwelling (Pra_kr.t) Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From timlighthiser at YAHOO.COM Thu May 13 06:38:22 1999 From: timlighthiser at YAHOO.COM (Tim Lighthiser) Date: Wed, 12 May 99 23:38:22 -0700 Subject: Santarasa and Abhinavagupta Message-ID: <161227048807.23782.4478604011538926231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Students of Indology, I am interested in learning more about the ontological, epistemological, and metaphysical foundations of santarasa within Abhinavagupta's works on pratyabhijna and tantrika. Where might I dig for these roots? Any comments on chronology would be welcomed as well. (I am aware of K. C. Pandey's and Ingalls' sense of order.) a thousand thank you-s in advance, Tim Lighthiser _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Thu May 13 11:57:02 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 05:57:02 -0600 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048813.23782.15561170171445308926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the record, I wish to applaud the rigor and clarity of Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan's discourse on the snake-related names of Madurai ten days ago. He convinces me that the uragapura of the Gadval plates (674) and Kalidasa's earlier reference to a _pura_ named _uraga_ may well be very different places, and the later MIGHT well be Madurai. And of course it is, in the sense that no other city can be so closely identified with Pandyan rule. I would only caution a need for, or confess a personal preference for scrupulously historicized conjecture, over reified claims for timeless verities. In other words, I put greater stock in the indology of a Sheldon Pollack than a Stella Kramrisch, because there is no such [one] thing, as THE Hindu Temple, nor even a single-definition, one-size-fits-all-puras _Sanskrit Cosmopolis_ with identical attributes from Kushan Mathura to Khmer Angkor.* * Cf. Sheldon I. Pollock, _The Sanskrit Cosmopolis, A.D. 300-1300: Tans-culturation, Vernacularization, and the Question of Ideology,_ in The Ideology and Status of Sanskrit in South and Southeast Asia (Leiden: Brill, 1996): 197-247 This in a final response to a message dated Sun, 2 May 1999 01:21:28 EDT: S. Palaniappan quotes me as saying: >> But it is unwarranted, I believe, to ascribe a >> snake-related name to Madurai on the basis of the Kalidas reference adding, >Of course, it is warranted on the basis of Tamil traditions described in >nampi's (13th century) and paraJcOti's (16th century) texts... I certainly have no clue as to how much earlier said traditions do go back, but again, caution is in order given other cases where, for example. a puranic myth of Demon Bali's city being destroyed by the sea at The Seven Pagodas/ Mahabalipuram arises in a sthalapurana said to derive from the Markandeya Purana, I believe, after historical memory of Mahamallapuram's true patronymic founding (in celebration of the 642 conquest of VAtApi) was forgotten. Hope this clarifies my approach, Michael Rabe SAIC/SXU/Chicago [Another epigraphic query follows] From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 13 14:24:49 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 07:24:49 -0700 Subject: wall lizard and vishnu Message-ID: <161227048817.23782.101033767142734904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From The Art of South East Asia, H. N. Abrams, 1998, (a splendid production, highly to recommended, It is very, very Indian, Didn't Tagore, on a visit to the East, say something like:"I see India every where, only the faces are different". Has Burton Stein's seminal theory on segmentary Chola state, peasant-priest (vellala-brahmana) alliance applied to Khmer state in the field of History? - NG) p. 173: " The five brick sanctuary towers of Prasat Kravanh, which are arranged on a single terrace with the openings towards the east, are almost unique in Cambodian architecture in having relief decoration inside. .. Carved directly in the brickwork, the reliefs are found in the middle tower and the northernmost one, they belong to the iconography of the god Vishnu and are among the finest creations of the tenth century. The northernmost tower is dedicated to Sri, also known as Lakshmi, the wife of Vishnu. .... The representations of three aspects of Vishnu in the central tower command more attention in that they are very much better preserved. Appearing in glory beneath rich multifoil arcatures, the god is portrayed in his Trivikrama aspect to the south, in his Garudavahana aspect to the north, and to the west in a supreme eight-armed form, surrounded by massed ranks of deities paying homage and surmounted by a series of nine characters representing the "Nine Devas', together with an enigmatic *lizard* figure seen in profile. The principal image of this sanctuary was quite properly placed on a pedestal at the center of the cella. The inscription on the door jambs states that this image bore the name of Trailokyanatha, "Lord of the Three worlds". We like to hypothesize that the three large interior reliefs carry symbolic representations of Vishnu's power over each of the worlds concerned: the earth, intermediate space, and the celestial spheres. By no means everything in these splendid reliefs has been explained, and the element of mystery that they retain (particularly the lizard) is symbolically enhanced for the modern viewer by the darkness surrounding them." > Have seen a wall lizard sculpture very near the mUlabera > of the Kanchipuram varadarAja(aruLALa) perumAL temple. > In some other Vishnu temples too, in South East Asia > also. > > Is there any temple legends connecting wall lizard (palli) > with Vishnu? In Alvars? In Vaishnava works from Sanskrit? Thanks for any leads, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 13 14:25:55 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 07:25:55 -0700 Subject: wall lizard and vishnu Message-ID: <161227048819.23782.14724556747002729845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Well... Vishnu is known as >"thiruvarangaththil palli kolbavan". :-) :-) >Sorry for the ridiculous joke. >Credit goes to Dr. J. Chandrasekhar >of I.I.Sc, Bangalore. Dear Raja, This must be a Saivaite dig at Srirangam palli kollum perum aaL (ie., paLLi koLLum perumaaL) :-) BTW, did you go to IISc? I got one of my Master's degrees there. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Thu May 13 12:43:59 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 07:43:59 -0500 Subject: Epigraphic curses Message-ID: <161227048815.23782.5472427598939858009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone suggest a reference in Epigraphia Indica or some such publication for the curse, said to be fairly widespread in its currency, to the effect that one who harms the benefaction will incur sin equal to that of one who kills a milk-giving cow on the bankes of the Ganges? I have reason to believe this refrain concludes a previously unpublished inscription that I am having trouble deciphering on a sculpture from Nagapattinam that belongs to the Art Institute of Chicago. Based on a preliminary eye-copy ESI officers, Mysore, have recognized that portion of the text and said that it may date from the Vijayanagar period. But where does one begin going through the thousands of other South Indian inscriptions looking for a match in sentiment and orthography? Thus if anyone can recall seeing this particular curse cited anywhere, it will be an enormous help in preparing a more accurate transcription to take back to Mysore for a second attempt at having it fully translated. Much thanks, Michael Rabe SAIC/SXU/Chicago From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Thu May 13 15:09:58 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 08:09:58 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048824.23782.6048316150418849309.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > as the cozhadeSattu vaDamas seem to have > been in the Tanjavur area > from the 9th century or so, and I would assume that > some of them became > SrIvaishNavas too. For example Sri NAthamuni, grandfather of Sri YAmunAchArya was from vIranArayaNapuram which has been considered in his time as cOzadEcam and has been documented in the tradition as a vaDama . I'm not sure if the geographical focus is significantly affected as it's not clear if the vaDama were to be found in significant numbers in points further south of ThanjAvur, uRaiyUr areas. Indeed this has historically been the locus of the vaDama's ( i.e., southward from Kanchipuram till the cOzadEcam) in Tamilnadu until a few centuries ago. Are you perhaps aware of significantly different distribution at that time e.g., in Tirunelveli etc? For the present discussion, the Anbil plates may throw some light but unfortunately I don't have access to it. Thanks and Warm Regards. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From jai at FLEX.COM Thu May 13 18:26:20 1999 From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 08:26:20 -1000 Subject: World's oldest writing is Vedic, says city scholar Message-ID: <161227048841.23782.1728289865333903290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> World's oldest writing is Vedic, says city scholar The Times of India Thursday, May 13, 1999 The article is located here: http://www.timesofindia.com/today/13mban41.htm Jai Maharaj jai at mantra.com Om Shanti From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu May 13 15:43:13 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 08:43:13 -0700 Subject: Vaidiks & Vedic Religion Message-ID: <161227048826.23782.6692306076557238894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Vishal for the explanation of Agrawal caste lore. Are Agra (Taj Mahal city) and Agarwals connected? The caste origin myths resemble those of the Tamil CheTTiyar castes, (Sanskritized Shresti) and Telugu Gomati (Arya Vaishya) myths. These castes are not Vaidiks in a big way out in the South. How is the word bania (vANiya in Sanskrit??) derived? Are ta. vaNikam, vANipam related to equivalents in sanskrit? Borrowings, which way?? Kind regards, SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Thu May 13 15:44:12 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 08:44:12 -0700 Subject: Is Vedic Indra an icon of sexual promiscuity and infidelity? Message-ID: <161227048828.23782.16276892751881624903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Based on Vedic texts or early "Aryan" texts, is it possible to accurately say that Indra, as the lord of the agricultural land rich in water bodies, was also an icon of sexual promiscuity and infidelity? If not so, what is a reasonable time frame for the earliest Skt texts that would qualify Indra to be one? Regards, Chandra _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu May 13 16:08:32 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 09:08:32 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048831.23782.7251652785178688288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Balaji Hebbar wrote: > To answer Nanda Chandran's point: > The Shri-VaiShNava SampradAya is called Ubhaya-VedAnta for > precisely this reason that they accept as EQUALLY authoritative > the Sanskrit Vedas and the Tamil AzhvAr Prabandhams. Hence both > Tengalais and VaDagalais accept both. The question then is one > of EMPHASIS. The VaDagalais tend to lay emphasis on the > Sanskritic side, the thengalais (corrected!) on the Tamil side. >> All this of >> course IN ADDITION TO the 18 theological differences between >> them. I would think that the populations from which vaDakalai and thenkalai are drawn from has more to do with the sect separation, rather than the 18 theological differences. Probably, a need was felt and 18 difference theory was produced to sanctify the difference. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu May 13 10:01:18 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 10:01:18 +0000 Subject: Rann (etymology?)] Message-ID: <161227048805.23782.247425951718128920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Smith wrote: > On Tue, 11 May 1999, S.Kalyanaraman wrote: > > > Is rann derived from lavan.a, salt? Or, lavni = big river (Gondi)? > > It is derived from araNya-, "wilderness, jungle". See Turner, A > Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages, item 600. Given the location (and its deforested state today), so close to the gulf on the Arabian ocean, wouldn't the Rann be semant. related to: arNava mfn. agitated , foaming , restless RV. VS. AV. ; (%{a4s}) m. a wave , flood RV. ; the foaming sea RV. VS. ; the ocean of air (sometimes personified as a demon with the epithet %{mahA4n} or %{ta at nayitnu4s}) RV. AV. ; (%{as} , rarely %{am} [MBh. xiii , 7362]) m. n. the sea ; (hence) the number , `" four "' Su1ryas. ; N. of two metres (cf. %{a4rNa} , m.)N. of wk. on jurisprudence. Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 13 17:15:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 10:15:07 -0700 Subject: Karnataka, Kannada Message-ID: <161227048834.23782.1343026302414947447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Chengam herostones from 6th century CE confirms the theory on kal nATu as the ultimate source for Karnataka and kannada. The 6th century CE herostones mention "*kal nATTu* perm kaGkar" (Gangas from kalnADu). Chengam herostones were edited by Nagaswamy; Dr. Nachimuthu whose name was mentioned by Dr. Witzel recently sent the following mail. The CT pair cited by Palaniappan, nerunal & nen2n2al makes the development, karunATu and kan2n2ATu plausible within Tamil itself. Also, compare perumAn2, pemmAn2 pair. perumAn2 < peru + makan2 just like atiyan2 + makan2 -> atiyamAn2. <<>> In Tamil, karumAn2, kammAn2, kan2n2An all refer to the blacksmith. Similar developments like a) nerunal, nen2n2al; b) perumAn2, pemmAn2? Regards, N. Ganesan -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.K.Nachimuthu Professor & Head,Department of Tamil University of Kerala, Kariavattom-695581 Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala, India Tel.(00 91) (0471) 418919(O)417959(R) fax 550731(attn) "Vanakkam.With reference to your mail on the subject the Chengam Nadukarkal have reference to KalnATu peruGkaGkar. Recently number of potsherds and remains of Roman amphora have been unearthed from the banks of Noyyal near Perur.On the potsherds the name erumainATu occurs frequently." K. Nachimuthu _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bvi at AFN.ORG Thu May 13 14:41:25 1999 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 10:41:25 -0400 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048821.23782.29633035502962737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some practical thoughts on Purusha and will: 1) Regarding the purusha as the individual soul (jiva) It seems to me that the system of karmic rewards and punishments would be meaningless if the purusha had no will. Also Krishna's requests in Bhagavad-gita that Arjuna act in a certain way, i.e. as in verse 2.45 that Arjuna transcend the modes of material nature or in verse 18.66 that Arjuna surrender to Him, would be meaningless unless Arjuna could choose to act in those ways. 2) Regarding the Purusha as the Supreme Soul (isvara) This entire cosmic manifestation has come about by His will, need I say more. Best wishes, Chris Beetle From hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK Thu May 13 10:52:50 1999 From: hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK (David Lawrence) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 10:52:50 +0000 Subject: address: Dr. Rajsehwari Ghose In-Reply-To: <19990512154253.71734.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048802.23782.11276146013596981668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Dr. Ghose is at Hong Kong University. Her EMAIL address is rghose at hkuxa.hku.hk Best regards, David Lawrence Division of Humanities Hong Kong University of Science and Technology On Wed, 12 May 1999 08:42:53 PDT naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) wrote: >I think Dr. Rajeshwari who worked on Tiruvarur temple of >Swami Tyagaraja in 1970s (the book came in 1996) is in Hong Kong. > >Does anyone have her email address? > >Thanks, >N. Ganesan > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu May 13 17:00:06 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 12:00:06 -0500 Subject: Vaidiks & Vedic Religion In-Reply-To: <19990509213832.46371.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048832.23782.7327387595982895231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Vishal Agarwal for an informative note on the Agrawals and on Vedic recitation . I wish there were more of them... We still are in need of an All-India (actualy, all- South Asia) study of styles of recitation. And we all lack the materials for some areas. Mr. Agarwal informed about some local conditions which not all of us will know, given the size of India. For example, does anyone know about Vedic recitation in Assam and Manipur? Cutch? Or northern Sri Lanka? Or about Vedic Srauta rituals that are performed still? It is hard to get any information on such outlying regions unless one goes onself,and we cannot visit each nook and corner of the subcontinent, obviously. At 14:38 -0700 5/9/99, Vishal Agarwal wrote: >I first encountered traditional Vedics at Poona where I lived for 6 years >About 7 years back, the Visva Hindu Parisad had invited Vedic pundits from >all over India ... , there was a good >representation from North and North Eastern India. > oral traditons of 12 Vedic >recensions have survived That should be about the right number: I know of remaining traditions of 2 versions for the Rgveda, 3 for the Samaveda, 13 for the Yajurveda, 2 for the Atharvaveda. Thus ca. 20 recensions, some very weak & fragmentary, such as the KaTha (Kashmir), Caraka (Maharasthra), Vaadhuula (Kerala), Aagnivesya (Tanjore area), Vaaraaha (border of Maharastra/Gujarat). Kapisthala-Katha may survive in Gujarat. Work needs to be done on these last remnants before they disappear (Prof. Y.Ikari/Kyoto U. is editing the Vadhula texts, my student S. Rosenfield the Katha texts), but I am not aware that anybody is following up the other recensions. Why not on your next trip to India? They may be just next door, outside of Nagpur , Tanjore or Ahmedabad. Not to forget that some of these reciters may have settled at Benares... MW> ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 13 20:33:19 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 13:33:19 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048846.23782.13599013659281197588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The people from Kanchipuram-Arcot areas being called vaDadeSattu vaDamas >and the vaDamas in the Tanjavur area are called cozhadeSattu vaDamas. The >latter are distinct from the cozhias. The vaDadeSattu vaDamas refer to >their cozhadeSa brethren as 'tekkEttiyAn' (southerners). This could >complicate the geographical picture, as the cozhadeSattu vaDamas seem to >have been in the Tanjavur area from the 9th century or so, and I would >assume that some of them became SrIvaishNavas too. My family is of the vaDadeSattu vaDama smArtha branch from North Arcot and are traditionally aligned with the Shankara matham in KAnchIpuram. A friend of my father, though an Iyengar, is of the same sub caste and also shares our surname. He is able to trace our line to MahArAshtra during the times of the Peshwa. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 13 21:15:48 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 14:15:48 -0700 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048848.23782.17386090888172047787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc writes : >The credit should probably go to the SAmkhya for setting right early on the >real definition of "eternal" - that it is changeless. If they did not think >that reality was changeless, why would they 1. Work out a superimposition >theory and attribute all the work only to prAkriti? >>1. Work - bodily work - is done by matter and affects matter; soul cannot >>do >>it for many reasons, e.g. because it is non-spatial. But what about the workings of the mind? The mind too is subtle matter according to the SAmkhya and thus, is prAkriti. And even a simple man with no special knowledge of psychology, would naturally link desire to thought. The question here is : is desire thought? If it is, then it has to be only the buddhi ie prAkriti, which desires. And desire can never be linked with consciousness. Consciousness is only knowledge - to be conscious, to know - The Purusha is only the knower and the silent observer - and cannot be linked to desire. And AFAIK, all the traditional SAmkhya and Yoga, commentators, interpret it this way. >2. Why would they define the Purusha only as pure consciousness? >>2. Pure means probably 'undefiled', and it is a rather general assumption >>in some corners that the >>spiritual sphere is superior, and defilements are bodily in origin >>("carnal" desires etc.). "carnal", "desire" - even if carnal can be linked to the body, how can desire ever be? It's a thought - the buddhi - prAkriti. Consciousness always implies the subject object relation. The subject being conscious of the object. Here as long as the Purusha is conscious of prAkriti and is not aware of himself, then there's the normal psychological consciousness. When he has realized his ignorance, awakens and rests content in himself, separate from prAkriti - then it's pure consciousness devoid of the subject object relation - liberation - moksham. >3. And finally why would they cite >ignorance as the true cause of bondage? >>3. If the soul is indeed superior it cannot be bound by what >>is inferior; and as it is conscience, some negative _mental_ property must >>be the cause of bondage. If mental property belongs to Purusha, then the buddhi would have been defined along with the Purusha and not as prAkriti. Ignorance is not the opposite of knowledge, but wrong knowledge (if it was the opposite of knowledge, the Purusha would be forever ignorant and no liberation is possible). The Purusha is MISTAKEN and identifies himself with PrAkriti. The removal of this ignorance, the right knowledge - to KNOW - is what brings about liberation. We've to clearly distinguish between knowledge and thought (desire). _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 13 22:00:26 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 15:00:26 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048850.23782.5362782157302050432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: >friend >of my father, though an Iyengar, is of the same sub caste and also shares >our surname. He is able to trace our line to MahArAshtra during the times >of >the Peshwa. This is somewhat too late for the times in which the vaDakalai and tenkalai separation occured (around the 14th century). The problem is that vaDama is a generic term, and covers people of diverse origins. If one digs deep enough, I presume you will find affinities with Marathi and Kannada Deshasthas, Kannada Kammes and Hoysala Karnatakas and Telugu Konaseemas and Painganadus etc. One problem is that 'vaDama' is a term given by the older strata of Brahmins in Tamil Nadu (predominantly bRhaccaraNas and cozhias) to fresh arrivals from the north. And "fresh" seems to stretch from at least the 10th-11th century to the 17th century (Maratha times). The second problem is that these identities may have been reinforced and redefined as late as the 19th century, when the British started the census process. For example, there are people who identify themselves as vaDamas in Tamil Nadu and as sanketis in Karnataka. So one has to be careful about which stratum of vaDamas one is talking about. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 13 22:20:24 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 15:20:24 -0700 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048853.23782.13545276937930619185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: one could try to interpret SK 64 in a >roundabout way. The buddhi (or antaHkaraNa) will then think in a kind of >meta-language - something like this: "If you, puruSa, could think, you >would >be right in thinking: 'the buddhi is not me; it is not mine; I am not the >buddhi'." > This latter solution seems to me rather complicated; anyway, all of >this >is - and I am afraid, must remain for ever - mere speculation. A pity. Well, at this juncture, one could take recourse to the yogasUtrabhAshya which interprets viveka-khyAti as sattva-purusha-anyatA-khyAti, although I have not been able to work out who perceives this anyatA, the purusha or the sattva (buddhi). Or else, one could turn to vedAnta, which has descriptions like paSyaty AtmAnam AtmanA, Atmany eva avasthAnam etc. Finally, this crucial problem shows us why we should not view sAMkhya, yoga and vedAnta as mutually exclusive darSanas, at least in their historical development, notwithstanding the dualism of some schools and the non-dualism of others. A large part of what is called proto-sAMkhya in modern literature should also be called proto-vedAnta. I believe this angle of reasoning would be fruitful in discussions of the works attributed to gauDapAda (sAMkhya and vedAnta) and Sankara (vedAnta and yoga), but I am afraid that this has not yet guided critical scholarship. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 13 22:45:33 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 15:45:33 -0700 Subject: Gentoo Studies Message-ID: <161227048855.23782.2292299158439512593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Appropos the numerous posts on the lack of relevant qualifications of the opponents of the AIT, I think that a formal education in liguistics, philology etc. does (as with any other specialized area of study) equip one with the formal discipline and tools required for pursuing an investigation in that branch of knowledge. However, although important, it is not a must. For instance, I have a graduate degree in a particular area of Engineering and have won International recognition in the same. But I have come across people who do not have any relevant University degree and yet have a greater understanding and knowledge in that area. For that matter, Bill Gates does not have a college degree but all the same, he knows more than I, in the area of Corporate Finance even though I might possess an MBA from a top 10 school. Intelligent people can indeed acquire a thorough understanding of a specialized area of study without pursuing formal education therein. My point is this--considering that the views of Dr. Rajaram etc. are gaining wider currency everyday, it is not in the interests of Indologists to hide merely behind their academic credentials. Academic arguments should be countered with academic arguments, or else the debate gets debased to the levels described in the article "Zydenos vs. Rajaram: A Case Study in the Aryan Invasion Polemic" Available at http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/articles/zydenbos.html For instance, one could say that book "Astronomical Code of the Rigveda" by Sri Subhash Kak is based solely on the arrangement of hymns in the Sakala Rigveda, whereas the extant manuscripts of Asvalayana, Samkhayana and Baskala recensions show a different arrangement. (These manuscripts are hardly mentioned in their works by modern Indologists, although several exist in libraries in Gujarat, Rajasthan etc.) The AIT has been analyzed from many aspects (Linguistics, archeology, Philology, Sociology, Anthropology, Astronomy etc.) by scholars. The findings of scholars of all the different areas of specialization should logically converge. Why is it then that the astronomical data presented by the opponents of AIT point to a different period? The question is-are all these sciences mentioned above equally accurate? Is Astronomy as accurate as say Linguistics? If no, then the less accurate data and analysis should give way to more accurate data and analysis. The dispute over the supposed date of arrival of Aryans parallels the recent controversy over the date of the Sphinx at Gizeh in Egypt. Geologists, who have studied the erosion patterns on the statue are adamant in declaring that the structure has to be at least 9000 years old, because desert flooding could along have resulted in the erosion patterns found on the Sphinx, and it is well known that no such desert flooding has occurred in the last 8-9 thousand years. Egyptologists, who have traditionally dated the Sphinx in the 3rd Millennium BCE are obviously up in arms and say that this is opposed to the "well established' chronology of the Pharoanic dynasties. The geologists, in response to this, have rightly pointed out that the so called established chronology was really established on the basis of a mass of baseless assumptions and speculations more than a century ago, and are uncritically accepted by modern Egyptologists. Is the scenario different from that in the case of Indology? While modern Indologists rightly point out that Indology has advanced a lot since the days of Max Mueller et al, the fact remains that in many matters, the highly speculative chronologies of these pioneers are still accepted as Brahmavakya by them. Therefore, it often appears that Professional Indologists are scared to question highly prestigious and 'well established' theories. This is where the advantage of Sri Kak etc. lies. (Not to disparage the members of this list The fact that they are not dependent on Linguistics et al for their bread and butter means that they are not obliged to advocate, propagate, uphold or accept prestigious yet wrong theories for fear of a reprisal from the Establishment. And this hesitation is not peculiar to Indology. Having been in graduate Science and Engineering research for long, I have seen Scientists do the same, although not to same extent. It is possible to get up to a Master's degree in Science/Engineering with a negative experiment results (although PhD requires the researcher to come up with a positive result in general) Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Lars Martin Fosse Subject: Re: Gentoo Studies Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 21:45:29 +0200 Swaminathan Madhuresan schrieb: > > Curious thing about Kak, Frawdley, Talagiri, Rajaram, & their > schoolers: None has any formal, university degrees in Linguistics > or Archaeology. That is an important prerequisite for their scholarship, and they are proud of it. They have no faith in Western scholarship such as philology, linguistics etc, and they prefer to construct their own version of scholarship. Lars Martin Fosse _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 13 22:54:50 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 15:54:50 -0700 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048860.23782.2248788625299227546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In all the standard commentaries of the Samkhya Karikas, the following quotation from the Shashtitantra of Panchashikha is made "Purusadhisthitam pradhanam pravarttate". So perhaps, according to older Samhkhya teachers, the Purusa did will in some way. Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Chris Beetle Subject: Re: Does Purusha will? Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:41:25 -0400 Some practical thoughts on Purusha and will: 1) Regarding the purusha as the individual soul (jiva) It seems to me that the system of karmic rewards and punishments would be meaningless if the purusha had no will. Also Krishna's requests in Bhagavad-gita that Arjuna act in a certain way, i.e. as in verse 2.45 that Arjuna transcend the modes of material nature or in verse 18.66 that Arjuna surrender to Him, would be meaningless unless Arjuna could choose to act in those ways. 2) Regarding the Purusha as the Supreme Soul (isvara) This entire cosmic manifestation has come about by His will, need I say more. Best wishes, Chris Beetle _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 13 23:06:32 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 16:06:32 -0700 Subject: Vaidiks & Vedic Religion Message-ID: <161227048863.23782.15602034804545399048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Swaminathan Madhuresan Subject: Re: Vaidiks & Vedic Religion Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:43:13 -0700 Sri Swaminathan wrote: Thanks to Vishal for the explanation of Agrawal caste lore. Are Agra (Taj Mahal city) and Agarwals connected? Vishal writes: No. Agra derives its name from the ancient Saivite temple (no longer extant) of Agresvara. This was one of the "Pancha Mahadeva" temples in the region. Of the remaining 4, one was at Aligarh (called Koil in ancient times), one at Meerut (now extant and called the Pura Mahadeva temple) and I do not know about the whereabouts of the other two. These 5 temples are linked with the cult of the Kawarias who survive to this day and worship at the Meerat temple. My local residents of Agra (including my relatives who have been living there from several generations) firmly believe that the Taj Mahal stands at the site of the ancient Agresvara temple. Sri Swaminanthan wrote: The caste origin myths resemble those of the Tamil CheTTiyar castes, (Sanskritized Shresti) and Telugu Gomati (Arya Vaishya) myths. These castes are not Vaidiks in a big way out in the South. How is the word bania (vANiya in Sanskrit??) derived? Are ta. vaNikam, vANipam related to equivalents in sanskrit? Borrowings, which way?? Vishal wrote: Our elders told us that the name 'Bania' (by which we are commonly known) is derived from the Sanskrit word 'Vanik'. We are also told that the Banias of Bengal are 'Benis' (Example- Beni Madho- the famous freedom fighter), that of Gujarat are the Patels, Gandhis, Shahs, Mehtas etc. (for instance, one of the nick names of Mahatma Gandhi was 'The Bahadur Bania"). However, all North Indian Vaishyas are not Baniyas. For instance, the Mahesvari subcaste found in Rajasthan. In my expiences, the Shettys and Benis do feel very happy when they meet an Agarwal like me :-) and state that we belong to the same community. In an email, someone had mentioned the name 'Kundu'. We know a family of Kundus who are Bengali Brahmins that had settled in Multan (now in Pakistan) during the British rule and subsequently came over to Delhi. Regards, Vishal _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Thu May 13 23:25:23 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 16:25:23 -0700 Subject: Rigveda: dravidian word taruks.a, cowherd? Message-ID: <161227048867.23782.13592850642818988948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are Tamil words toRu, tozu, tozuti, tozumpu etc., in the senses of cattle, worship/adore/pay hoamge to, slave, group etc. These do occur frequently in CT. Dr.N.Ganesan also had enquired whether Ta. toRu had anything to do with Gk. taurus etc. Quickly from the Cologne OTL >?From the OTL: toRu 01 1. herd of cows; 2. cattle-stall; 3. shepherd caste; 4. crowd, multitude, host; 5. plenty, abundance 02 1. slave; 2. slavery otl tozu tozu 02 1. cattlestall, manger; 2. pound; 3. stocks; 4. prison; 5. married life; 6. a kind of leprosy; 7. the 27th naks2atra ; 8. stand for toddy jars; 9. turnpike; 10 cage for wild animals; 11. tank, pond otl tozu-tal tozu-tal 01 to worship, adore, pay homage to --- "S.Kalyanaraman" wrote: > The r.ca is: > s'atam da_se balbu_the viprastaruks.a a_ dade > tete va_yavime jana_ madanti_ndragopa_ madanti devagopa_h (RV > 8.46.32) > > Sa_yan.a: I, the sage, accep the hundred from the slave Balbu_tha, > the > cowherd; we here are your, O Va_yu- those who have Indra and the gods > for > protectors rejoice (through your favour). [Cowherd: taruks.a = > gava_s'va_di_nam ta_rakah, but it is given as a proper name in the > gun.a to > Pa_n. 4.1.105; a hundred = an indefinite number]. > > taruks.a > m. (g. 2. %{lohitA7di} , not in Ka1s3.) N. of a man RV. viii , 46 , > 32 ; cf. > %{talukSa}(Cologne Sanskrit lex.) > > But, there is another lexeme: > taraks.u > m. a hyena VS. xxiv , 40 MaitrS. iii , 14 , 21 GopBr. i , 2 , 8 MBh. > Hariv. > 9373 R. Sus3 > > The cognate Dravidian: > tar-uku to linger, loiter (Tamil); ta_ri to wait (Koruku); ta_r-u, > ta_ru to > lurk, lie in wait (Telugu)(DEDR 3193). > Regards, Chandra > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 13 23:35:26 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 16:35:26 -0700 Subject: Vaidiks & Vedic Religion Message-ID: <161227048869.23782.10575220372479283756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Michael Witzel Subject: Re: Vaidiks & Vedic Religion Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:00:06 -0500 Dr. Witzel wrote Mr. Agarwal informed about some local conditions which not all of us will know, given the size of India. For example, does anyone know about Vedic recitation in Assam and Manipur? Cutch? That should be about the right number: I know of remaining traditions of 2 versions for the Rgveda, 3 for the Samaveda, 13 for the Yajurveda, 2 for the Atharvaveda. Thus ca. 20 recensions, some very weak & fragmentary, such as the KaTha (Kashmir), Caraka (Maharasthra), Vaadhuula (Kerala), Aagnivesya (Tanjore area), Vaaraaha (border of Maharastra/Gujarat). Kapisthala-Katha may survive in Gujarat. Work needs to be done on these last remnants before they disappear (Prof. Y.Ikari/Kyoto U. is editing the Vadhula texts, my student S. Rosenfield the Katha texts), but I am not aware that anybody is following up the other recensions. Vishal Writes: I had visited Nashik in December 1994 and my friend there had invited some local Vaidiks for a ceremony at their house. There, I had a chance to hear some 'Maitrayaniya' recitations. I spoke a little to the priest and he said that he was a 'Varaha' from 'Nadurbar' in interior Maharashtra. He said that we can meet the Charakas in DhuLe, Nandurbar (both are close to Nashik). Beyond this I do not know. However, if you or your student plans on visiting Nashik in the near future, please let me know and I can arrange for your/his accomodation. A friend of mine also met a Swami from Andhra Pradesh who informed that the Saunaka Atharvaveda is taught at the Vedapathasala at 'Sitanagaram'. (I donot know where this place is). In 1996, a Somayaga was performed at Pune (I was there at that time) and the 'Brahma' of the ritual was an Atharvavedin from Gokarna. (I learnt of the ceremony via a notice put up at BORI). My exroomate was the grandson of a renowned Taittiriya scholar (now dead) who could recite Taittiriya backwards, or forwards from any word onwards!! My roomate could recite for barely 10 minutes and stated that his grandfather would never impart this knowledge to a foreigner (what a pity!) Regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 13 23:37:38 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 16:37:38 -0700 Subject: vaDama etc Message-ID: <161227048872.23782.14091022833819550666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidya writes : >If one digs deep enough, I presume you will find affinities with >Marathi >and Kannada Deshasthas, Kannada Kammes and Hoysala Karnatakas >and Telugu >Konaseemas and Painganadus etc. True. My maternal grandmother was from Karnataka. (And due to this influence, my mother always puts a bit of jaggery in the rasam :-) But the curious thing is, as I pointed out before, my fathers friend who is an IyengAr also has the same surname as us. One could well imagine the influence, the conversion of RAmAnuja and VedAnta Desika to Vaishnavism, would have had on the vaDama community, since both AchAryas came from the same fold. But centuries later, how did the conversion from smArtha to Vaishnava occur? Not that it isn't possible, but is rather strange. And my father's friend traces the MahArAshtrian connection through our common surname. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Thu May 13 17:01:14 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 19:01:14 +0200 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048837.23782.4586465104287697287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Quality, to an Indian ear, seems to imply guNa, > which of course, the sAMkhyan purusha is devoid of, technically. But it is a > different question whether the purusha is viSishTa or not, which is what you > are saying. A different word than 'quality' would clear the issue. A very sensible proposal. I would however suggest translating guNa (in sAMkhya contexts only, of course!) differently; say 'aspect' or 'constituent'. The reasons for this approach: the guNas themselves have qualities (e.g. sattvaM laghu prakAzakam, sattva is light and brilliant, SK 13), and there is no substance that they would qualify: simply the three guNas together *are* the material substance, prakRti. And this contradicts European (Aristotelian) notions of substance and quality, and also the vaizeSika concept of quality (unfortunately also called guNa): dravyAzrayy aguNavAn ... iti guNa-lakSaNam (The characteristics of quality: inheres in a substance, has no qualities ...; vaizeSikasUtra 16). Though it is generally hazarous to translate one and the same word differently, I feel that it cannot be helped. Wherever guNa means "sattva, rajas and tamas", it *must not* be translated as quality - it can be left untranslated, or a specific term must be selected for the purpose (some more ideas: 'factor', 'thread'). In other contexts 'quality' still seems to be the best choice. The situation is similar, say, in the case of 'dharma' - it will also mean 'quality' quite often, but at other times it wil be 'law' etc. > From another angle, what does the purusha think with? After all, the > apparati of awareness such as manas and buddhi are classed together with the > tattvas. I do not know. Clearly it cannot think *with* anything, as it is completely isolated. It might itself be able to think, perhaps in a more or less limited sense; e.g. only in concepts (with meanings only, deprived of any reference), or, an even more reduced ability: only with logical words (and, or, not) and pronouns (variables [some, all] and deictic [I]). If even this is unacceptable, one could try to interpret SK 64 in a roundabout way. The buddhi (or antaHkaraNa) will then think in a kind of meta-language - something like this: "If you, puruSa, could think, you would be right in thinking: 'the buddhi is not me; it is not mine; I am not the buddhi'." This latter solution seems to me rather complicated; anyway, all of this is - and I am afraid, must remain for ever - mere speculation. A pity. Regards, Ferenc From jpstephen at HOME.COM Fri May 14 00:01:48 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 20:01:48 -0400 Subject: Surnames (or the lack of it!) in Tamilnadu Message-ID: <161227048874.23782.2394441170024859194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Surnames seem to be a missing factor in Tamilnadu. Other than a few caste names, I have not come across surnames whereas in neighbouring Kerala there is what is called a housename. Is there any reason for this? Sujatha From timlighthiser at YAHOO.COM Fri May 14 04:50:57 1999 From: timlighthiser at YAHOO.COM (Tim Lighthiser) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 21:50:57 -0700 Subject: An adress for Dr. Anand Amaladass Message-ID: <161227048888.23782.4415805455640539580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Does anyone know the email or the ground mail address for Dr. Anand Amaladass of the Satya Milayam Research Institute for Philosophy and Sanskrit in Madras? please respond. Thank you! Tim _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From asrbng at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu May 13 17:23:57 1999 From: asrbng at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Kamala) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 22:53:57 +0530 Subject: Suggestion on Devnagari font and copy protection techniques Message-ID: <161227048810.23782.2513667711993653273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sir, Under the Sabdabodha project, the Academy has developed generators and analysers for Sanskrit verbs, nouns, krdantas and also Sanskrit sentence analyser. We have now ported the programs to Windows platform. We are yet to buy/choose a particular Devnagari font software that can be bundled with our program. We are on the lookout for good Devnagari font, preferably ISCII based. Pl. suggest us any developed known to you. In the meanwhile, we were thinking of "copy protection" for our program. Since this is the first software we are going to market, we are not aware of the copy protecting techniques. We seek your guidelines in this matter. Pl. do suggest us how to go about it. Regards Sudhakar, Programmer, Sabdabodha project and Kamala, Coordinator ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Academy of Sanskrit Research, Please visit our website at http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/2455 HQ: Melkote 571 431, Mandya Dist., Karnataka, India. Ph: (08236) 58741, 58781 Branch: 62, 9 "A" Coss, Kumara Park West, Bangalore 560 020, India. Ph: (080) 3360135, 3366082 ******This mail is sent from Bangalore ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Fri May 14 02:53:59 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 22:53:59 -0400 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048884.23782.1159401007280573783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Shri Madhuresan: Yes, there are a lot of "AyyangArs" in KarnAtAka who belong to the non-triad group. The late great Prof. A.K.Ramanujam belnged to this "group" (tho' not necessarily from GorUr). Tho they are KannaDiga as any other KannaDiga today (including great KannaDa writers like MAsti Venkatesha AyyangAr) these people can trace their origin to the Tamil country. In fact many can trace their roots to their ancestor who accompanied RAmAnuja from Srirangam for his 12 year exile in KarnAtaka. The HebbAr and MaNDyam AyyangArs are converts to Shri-VaiShNavism. The HebbArs were originally Hoysala-KarnATaka SmArta brahmins. The MaNDyams are Jains whose ancestors RAmAnuja defeated at King BiTTideva's court. Unlike the others, the Tamil spoken by these groups is very KannaDized. By the way, for the information of all who have been following this, the HebbAr AyyangArs do not keep the surname HebbAr. It is my group that keeps it. We are TuLu-speaking MAdhva brahmins from South Kanara Distt. As far as I know there is no relationship between us and the HebbAr Shri-VaiShNavas. All MAdhvas belong to 3 groups: 1. the TuLu-speaking Shivalli MAdhvas owing allegience to the ASTamaThas of UDupi and 4 other TuLu MAdhva MaThas. 2. the KannaDa/MarAThi/Telegu-speaking "Deshastha" MAdhvas owing allegience to the UttarAdi, VyAsrAya, RAyara MaThas and 6 other lesser Deshastha MAdhva MaThas. 3. the KonkaNi-speaking GauDa-SArasvat MAdhvas owing allegience to the GokarNa and the KAshi MaThas. (NB: there is a small section of GauDa-SArasvats who are SmArtas). The entire MAdhva-VaiShNava community is governed by 24 MaThas. Unfortunately, there are NO Tamil-speaking MAdhvas. There are MAdhvas in the Tamil country but their "house-language" (in KannaDa, "mane mAtu") is either KannaDa or MarAThi. Of course living in TamilnAD they can speak, read and write Tamil like any other ethnic Tamilian. There are a very few (literally a handful) of MaLayAli-speaking MAdhvas. They were converted to Madhvaism by HH Vishvendra TIrtha (33rd Pontiff of the Sode MaTha of UDupi) when he converted the Cochin Royal Family. They were NambUdiris. Again, there are lot of MAdhvas in Kerala besides these. But they are all either TuLu or KonkaNi-speaking. In Kerala, I think my people and the GauDa-Sarasvats are referred to as "EmarAndri" (roughly meaning Mangalorean). As you may know, Mangalore city is not too far from the Kerala border. Actually, TuLu is spoken all the way upto KAsargoD. Regards to all, B.N.Hebbar From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Thu May 13 17:56:25 1999 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 22:56:25 +0500 Subject: Rigveda: dravidian word oka, home Message-ID: <161227048839.23782.534568300299449523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:35:07 +0500 >To: kalyan97 at yahoo.com >From: "Bh.Krishnamurti" >Subject: Re: Rigveda: dravidian word oka, home >In-Reply-To: <19990513044307.21637.rocketmail at web601.yahoomail.com> > > >Dear Kalyanaraman: >I agree with Prof. Witzel that Skt. o:kas- 'dwelling' is an IE word. Don't forget that it is a long o: unlike Drav. short o; since there is no short o in Skt. the spelling can be misleading. >Ta. okkal 'relations' (DEDR 925) is derived from PD root *o 'to be united', cf. Kur. okk- 'fit well' (DEDR 924). Burrow and Emeneau have been very conservative in keeping meaning groups separate even if they have transparent relationship. The other meanings like family, joint agriculture, etc. derive from this root. There is a Telugu .sa.sthi:vibhkti -yokka 'of, belonging to' which I traced to this root. Both Ta. and Ma. in infinitive have o-kk-a. The Ko.dagu meaning fits this frame. The core meaning is 'to be together, be united, etc.' and not a 'dwelling', etc. for which we have *il, *wi:.du, etc. I do not know if Enlish house is from the same root. Skt. divaukasas- 'gods residing in diva-'. The Dravidian word and the IE are different. One can always find accidental resemblances of this kind. The Dravidian numeral one has three PD reconstructions, *on-_t-, *o:r-/*or-V-, *okk-. I think they all go at a deeper level of derivation to pre-Dravidian root *o 'to be united into one'. Regards, >Bh.K. > >At 21:43 12/05/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Sarasvati-Sindhu - http://sarasvati.simplenet.com >> >>Hi, >> >>It may be of interest to note that Dravidian >>Etymological Dictionary of Burrow and Emeneau (DEDR) >>cites oka as a Dravidian lexeme: >> >>DEDR 925: okkal, relations (Tamil); okl, family >>(Kota); okkal, residing, tenancy (Kannada); okkelu, >>tenant (Tulu); wikil, family within a clan (Toda) >> >>If Prof. Witzel is right, maye, this entry should be >>relegated to the appendix, as an IE etymon. Unless, of >>course, the returning Indo-Iranians carried the >>Dravidian substratum influence! >> >>It will be interesting to find cognates in Munda. >> >>Kalyanaraman >> >>--- Michael Witzel wrote: >>> Sarasvati-Sindhu - http://sarasvati.simplenet.com >>> >>> At 22:48 +0000 5/12/99, S.Kalyanaraman wrote: >>> > >>> >oka >>> >m. (%{uc} Comm. on Un2. iv , 215) , a house , >>> refuge , asylum >>> >>> >okka >>> >patrilineal joint family (Kod.agu); >>> >>> oka s- (neuter ) is the older Ved. form >>> = E,Iran (Avestan) aocah- >>> >>> It has a perfectly good Indo-European etymology >>> (*Heuk) , Ved. uc/oc 'to >>> be used to, to find wellbeing, to dwell' + -as >>> (s-stem) , >>> see Mayerhofer, Etym. Dict. 1986-- p. 276 and 277 : >>> cf. Lithuanian ukis >>> 'farm house', etc. >>> >>> MW. >>> >>> >>=========================================================================== >>> Michael Witzel Elect. >>> Journ. of Vedic Studies >>> Harvard University >>> www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs >>> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 >>> home page: >>> www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm >>> >>> >>> >>______________________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, write to >>> sarasvati-unsubscribe at listbot.com >>> Start Your Own FREE Email List at >>> http://www.listbot.com/ >>> >> >>=== >>Sarasvati Sindhu Research Centre, 5 Temple Avenue, Srinagar Colony, Chennai 600015;http://sarasvati.simplenet.com >>http://sarasvati.listbot.com http://members.tripod.com/~navagraha >>http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2875(Cosmic Dancer Shiva-Nataraja) >>http://www.hindunet.org/hssworld/all/yugaadi/ >>http://www.hindunet.org/hssworld/all/great_people/ >>_________________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com >> >> >>______________________________________________________________________ >>To unsubscribe, write to sarasvati-unsubscribe at listbot.com >>Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/ >> >> Bh. Krishnamurti H.N. 12-13-233, Street No. 9 "Bhaarati", Tarnaka Hyderabad 5000 17 India 040-701-9665 From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri May 14 03:00:03 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 13 May 99 23:00:03 -0400 Subject: Epigraphic curses Message-ID: <161227048886.23782.5658740889488835236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Coincidentally, I have been interested in these curses found in inscriptions which reveal a lot about what the society considered matters of self-respect, sin, etc. I planned to write on them sometime and had gathered interesting data. In a message dated 5/13/99 7:38:51 AM Central Daylight Time, mrabe at ARTIC.EDU writes: > Can anyone suggest a reference in Epigraphia Indica or some such > publication for the curse, said to be fairly widespread in its currency, to > the effect that one who harms the benefaction will incur sin equal to that > of one who kills a milk-giving cow on the bankes of the Ganges? The common form of such a curse is "kagkaiyiTaik kumariyiTaik kurAl pacu kon2RAn2 ceyta/kon2Ra pAvam koLvAn2". Variations are possible also. > I have reason to believe this refrain concludes a previously unpublished > inscription that I am having trouble deciphering on a sculpture from > Nagapattinam that belongs to the Art Institute of Chicago. Based on a > preliminary eye-copy ESI officers, Mysore, have recognized that portion of > the text and said that it may date from the Vijayanagar period. I hope they say that due to orthography and not the contents of the curse. Cursing is much older. This particular type of curse occurs in many inscriptions. One example is an inscription A.R. No. 538 of 1902 or SII. vol. 8, no. 128 belonging to tiripuvan2ac cakkaravarttikaL maturaiyum Izamum pANTiyan2 muTittalaiyum koNTaruLiya kulOttugkacOza tEvar's 27th regnal year. The grant was issued by one kavuNiyar perumAn2 who was obviously a brahmin of kauNDinya gotra. Apparently, the same person in another inscription curses a person misappropriates a grant as "one who takes/carries water pot for the Jains". Interestingly, the word for pot used here is "kUNTikai" >But where > does one begin going through the thousands of other South Indian > inscriptions looking for a match in sentiment and orthography? Thus if > anyone can recall seeing this particular curse cited anywhere, it will be > an enormous help in preparing a more accurate transcription to take back to > Mysore for a second attempt at having it fully translated. > Hope this helps. Regards S. Palaniappan From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Thu May 13 19:17:22 1999 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 00:47:22 +0530 Subject: E-mail address Message-ID: <161227048843.23782.2540922225466851018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anyone knowing E-mail address of any Indologist of Bucharest University of Romania may please provide me with the same. Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair Professor Dept. of Sanskrit University of Kerala Trivandrum.Kerala,India. E-mail The r.ca is: s'atam da_se balbu_the viprastaruks.a a_ dade tete va_yavime jana_ madanti_ndragopa_ madanti devagopa_h (RV 8.46.32) Sa_yan.a: I, the sage, accep the hundred from the slave Balbu_tha, the cowherd; we here are your, O Va_yu- those who have Indra and the gods for protectors rejoice (through your favour). [Cowherd: taruks.a = gava_s'va_di_nam ta_rakah, but it is given as a proper name in the gun.a to Pa_n. 4.1.105; a hundred = an indefinite number]. taruks.a m. (g. 2. %{lohitA7di} , not in Ka1s3.) N. of a man RV. viii , 46 , 32 ; cf. %{talukSa}(Cologne Sanskrit lex.) But, there is another lexeme: taraks.u m. a hyena VS. xxiv , 40 MaitrS. iii , 14 , 21 GopBr. i , 2 , 8 MBh. Hariv. 9373 R. Sus3 The cognate Dravidian: tar-uku to linger, loiter (Tamil); ta_ri to wait (Koruku); ta_r-u, ta_ru to lurk, lie in wait (Telugu)(DEDR 3193). Was Sa_yan.a right in interpreting taruks.a as a cowherd? ta_raka mf(%{ikA} [Pa1n2. 7-3 , 45 Va1rtt. 6] R. ii)n. causing or enabling to pass or go over , carrying over , rescuing , liberating , saving MBh. xii (S3iva) Ja1ba1lUp. S3ivaP. &c. (a particular prayer , %{brahman}) Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri May 14 04:40:19 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 04:40:19 +0000 Subject: Rigveda: dravidian word asavasa, speed Message-ID: <161227048865.23782.14244506930551491417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The r.ca: parihavr.tedana_ jano yus.ma_dattasya va_yati deva_ adabhrama_s'a va_ yama_ditya_ ahetana_nehaso va u_tayah suu_tayo va u_tayah (RV 8.47.6) Sa_yan.a: Only by painful means does a iving man obtain the wealth which you bestow; but he whom you, divine A_dityas, visit, wins great (riches); your aids are void of harm, your aids are true aids. [By painful means = by penance, religious observances; a living ma: ana = pra_n.a-yuktah, endowed with life; (RV 4.30.3): pra_n.aru_pena balena; or, just a particle, 'certainly'; verily men succumb through the loss of the wealth given by you?; a_s'a vah = a_s'avah, swiftly moving]. a_s'ava n. (g. %{pRthv-Adi} Pa1n2. 5-1 , 122) quickness , rapidity (Cologne Skt. lex.) The Dravidian cognates: asavasa = haste, speed (Kannada); asiy-a_d.u to move (Telugu); acan:ku = to stir, move, shake (Tamil); asrna_ = to tremble (Kuruku)(DEDR 37). What is the IE derivation of as'va, horse? Could this have been derived from the semant. movement, speed, as in Dravidian? Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri May 14 05:47:12 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 05:47:12 +0000 Subject: Rigveda: dravidian word taruks.a, cowherd? Message-ID: <161227048877.23782.323950687442339298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote: > There are Tamil words > toRu, tozu, tozuti, tozumpu etc., in the senses of > cattle, worship/adore/pay hoamge to, slave, group etc. Burrow and Emeneau also indicate a possible link with the suffix in, cakur-tol = cattleshed (Parji), deriving cakur from sakki_, bull (Gadaba); in Kannada, tur-va_l.a is a cowherd. cf. twi. = corral, pen; tu. fo.s. = entrance of pen (Toda) (DEDR 3526 etc.) Regards, kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri May 14 13:25:23 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 06:25:23 -0700 Subject: Karnataka, Kannada Message-ID: <161227048900.23782.10276330440405551705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Balaji Hebbar, What is your opinion of the hypothesis that the names, karnATaka and kannaDa can be derived from kal nADu? What do Kannada scholars or Kirfel, Settar, etal write about the origin of Kannada and Karnataka? Thanks. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri May 14 13:35:54 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 06:35:54 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048901.23782.13165606135821576952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Yes, there are a lot of "AyyangArs" in KarnAtAka who belong > to the non-triad group. The late great Prof. A.K.Ramanujam > belnged to this "group" (tho' not necessarily from GorUr). Tho > they are KannaDiga as any other KannaDiga today (including > great KannaDa writers like MAsti Venkatesha AyyangAr) these > people can trace their origin to the Tamil country. In fact > many can trace their roots to their ancestor who accompanied > RAmAnuja from Srirangam for his 12 year exile in KarnAtaka. > The HebbAr and MaNDyam AyyangArs are converts to > Shri-VaiShNavism. The HebbArs were originally Hoysala-KarnATaka > SmArta brahmins. The MaNDyams are Jains whose ancestors RAmAnuja > defeated at King BiTTideva's court. What about the Hemmiges? Thanks. PS: I know Nagesh, a great comedian in 1960s and 1970s in Tamil cinema, is a Kannada Madhva. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri May 14 12:09:26 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 08:09:26 -0400 Subject: ASR Newsletter - Vol. 11 No.4 & Vol. & 12 No.1 Message-ID: <161227048896.23782.13893172715553732337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/14/99 3:09:41 AM Central Daylight Time, asrbng at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN writes: > Dear Sirs, > You have been sent this Newsletter as we thought you are interested in the > activities of the Academy. Since attachments offer an easy way to transmit viruses, is there any list policy regarding attachments? I certainly would not want to open these attachments given the recent experience. Regards S. Palaniappan From sybil.kruegel at THEOL.UNIBE.CH Fri May 14 07:19:38 1999 From: sybil.kruegel at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Sybil Kruegel) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 09:19:38 +0200 Subject: Is Vedic Indra an icon of sexual promiscuity and infidelity? Message-ID: <161227048891.23782.1745717989617109795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Periannan Chandrasekaran schrieb: > > Dear Indologists, > > Based on Vedic texts or early "Aryan" texts, > is it possible to accurately say that > Indra, as the lord of the agricultural land rich in water bodies, > was also an icon of sexual promiscuity and infidelity? > > If not so, what is a reasonable time frame for the > earliest Skt texts that would qualify Indra to be one? > > Regards, > Chandra > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com Vedic Indra is at least in the RV first and foremost a warrior, although already laughed at (soma-belly, being a coward). For sexual promiscuity see the obscure Vrshakaapi-song RV 10,86. Greetings, Sybil Kruegel From dupuche at ONE.NET.AU Fri May 14 12:19:19 1999 From: dupuche at ONE.NET.AU (John Dupuche) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 12:19:19 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 12 May 1999 to 13 May 1999 (#1999-57) Message-ID: <161227048881.23782.1710518042085824225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For Tim Lightiser's inquiry concening the basis of santarsa, the following may be useful. L.N. Pachoti Shaiva Principle of Rasa of Abhnavagupta (Kalya Bharati, Journal of Indian History an Culture, Year -2 Vol: II, 1998). Delhi. Motilal Banarsidass. Masson, J.L. and Patwardhan, M.V. Santarasa and Abhinavagupta's philosophy of aesthetics. Poona, Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, 1969. (Bhandarkar Oriental Series, no.9) xvii+206 p. Gnoli,R. The aesthetic experience according to Abhinavagupta. Pandey, K.C. Comparative Aesthetics, vol.1. Indian Aesthetics, Benares, 1950 2nd ed. 1963; vol.2, Western Aesthetics, Benares 1956. From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri May 14 07:26:42 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 12:56:42 +0530 Subject: Vaidiks & Vedic Religion In-Reply-To: <19990509213832.46371.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048879.23782.3468900568971489115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Agrawal, Thank you for your excellent and very thorough reply. My comments and further queries are at the places below. On Sun, 9 May 1999, Vishal Agarwal wrote: > I first encountered traditional Vedics at Poona where I lived for 6 years. > My immediate neighbours were Srotriya Rigvedins who could recite the Sakala > Rigveda completely with movements of head etc. This is the kind of info I wanted. Does the term `traditional Vaidiks', mean that these people were not Arya Samajis ? If so, then this wouls mean that the ancient Vedic religion did survive. I have always felt that the `corrupt' Puranas, etc. could not have corrupted all followers of the Vaidik religion, and that the Vaidik religion survived as a minority sect, just as Jainism did. > The Aryas consider themselves as Vaidiks and hold that their interpretation > of the Vedas is the correct one. Yes, but did they coin the term `Vaidik' ? Or is it that they sought to revive a minority (and not a dead) religion ? > As for Agarwals, we claim our descent from King Agrasen of Agreya (modern > Agroha in Hissar district of Haryana). Tradiition states that he ruled a > city state approximately 200 years after the Mahabharata War. He promoted Your info on Agarwals is highly informative. I have also heard that the Agarwals are the only `Aryan Vaisyas' left, the rest being from Gujarat, descendants of Khazars (whence Gujjars and thus Gujarat) from South Russia. Incidentally, the Khazars were Jews (does this have something to do with their mercantile abilities ?). > I think others in this forum can answer your other questions better > than I can, because my native area had a strong Arya Samaj influence There are 2 types of Orientalists: those who follow text-books, and those who have `ground'-knowledge based on personal experiences. The former are sometimes out of touch with realities; and require the know-jow of people `on the ground'. Since my question re. the survival of Vedic religion throughout the period of `corrupt' Hinduism goes against standard `text-book' scholarship, I asked you. One need not feel any `inferior' if the knowledge one has is based on ground knowledge; Sir Richard Burton, whose knowledge of Orientalism was entirely `ground-based', was perhaps the most renowned Orientalist ever. Thanks, Samar From asrbng at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Fri May 14 07:29:20 1999 From: asrbng at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Kamala) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 12:59:20 +0530 Subject: ASR Newsletter - Vol. 11 No.4 & Vol. & 12 No.1 Message-ID: <161227048893.23782.3239102909163547470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ACADEMY OF SANSKRIT RESEARCH (Please visit our website at http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/2455) Dear Sirs, You have been sent this Newsletter as we thought you are interested in the activities of the Academy. Contents: * Ramanuja -900 * Sanskrit- past, present & future * GUEST LECTURES- Dr. P. Sensharma, Dr. Peter M. Scharf * DIRECTOR'S PROGRAMME - Refresher Course in Sanskrit; Dialogue between traditional scholars and modern linguists; Introduction of Sanskrit Mimamsa;Crash Course On Indian cultural Heritage * SCHOLARS PARTICIPATION - All India Oriental Conference; Workshop on Library Automation; Manuscript Exhibition * LIBRARY BECOMES RICHER * Contributions; Visitor's Opinion; * Publication - Melkote Through the Ages; * Invitation for Articles etc. If you have any friends and relatives who may wish to receive this Newsletter, please let us have their email address. In case, if you don't wish to receive it, please email to us. Thank you. Kamala NK Coordinator. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- HQ: Melkote 571 431, Mandya Dist., Karnataka, India. Ph: (08236) 58741, 58781 Branch: 62, 9 "A" Coss, Kumara Park West, Bangalore 560 020, India. Ph: (080) 3360135, 3366082 ******This mail is sent from Bangalore ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Newsletter.txt URL: From bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Fri May 14 12:44:44 1999 From: bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Volker Thewalt) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 14:44:44 +0200 Subject: ASR Newsletter - Vol. 11 No.4 & Vol. & 12 No.1 In-Reply-To: <6614c4b4.246d6c76@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227048898.23782.5925035056627745043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since the Newsletter was attached in .txt-format there should be no danger of transmitting viruses ot the like (the same is true for documents in .rtf-format). (MS)Word documents containing macros or other executable files *may* be dangerous -- simple text-files can't. Best regards At 08:09 14.05.99 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/14/99 3:09:41 AM Central Daylight Time, >asrbng at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN writes: > >> Dear Sirs, >> You have been sent this Newsletter as we thought you are interested in the >> activities of the Academy. > >Since attachments offer an easy way to transmit viruses, is there any list >policy regarding attachments? I certainly would not want to open these >attachments given the recent experience. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > > --------------------------------- LaserSatz Thewalt Dr. Volker Thewalt Kapellenweg 8 D-69257 Wiesenbach fon 06223/970122 fax 06223/970123 http://www.thewalt.de http://www.w3pro.de http://www.uebersatz.de e-mail: vt at thewalt.de --------------------------------- From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 14 22:33:35 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 15:33:35 -0700 Subject: wall lizard and vishnu Message-ID: <161227048905.23782.4671976811042366782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From Dr. F. Smith, UIowa -------------------------------------------------- I do not know the legends but I do know that a sacred lizard is associated with (at least) one of the temples of Kanchipuram. I know this because one of the little momentos on one of my bookshelves is a flat cheap metal 3x5 inch framed picture of two lizards with a sun and moon that's labeled "SACRED LIZARD Kancheepuram" with a two line inscription in Telugu. I wouldn't be surprised if Vasudha Narayanan or David Shulman knows more than I do. Fred Smith _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 14 23:15:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 16:15:29 -0700 Subject: Koil in Aligarh Message-ID: <161227048907.23782.13791982478945060281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Agra derives its name from the ancient Saivite temple (no longer >extant) of Agresvara. This was one of the "Pancha Mahadeva" temples >in the region. Of the remaining 4, one was at Aligarh (called Koil >in ancient times), one at Meerut (now extant and called the Pura >Mahadeva temple) and I do not know about the whereabouts of the >other two. These 5 temples are linked with the >cult of the Kawarias who survive to this day and worship at the >Meerat temple. Dear Shri. Agarwal, I am intrigued by this; In Tamil, KOyil is the most common word for the temple. kO + il = kOyil (with the glide, y). kO could mean either God or King. Usually in Hindu temples the deity is treated like a King. How far back Aligarh Koil goes in time? We have any stalapuraNas, inscriptions, etc.,? Can you please explain more on the Kawaria cult? Is anything written about them? BTW, what is the formation for gOpura? Is it IE? or more like kO + pura(-tal), protecting a temple/palace. I believe James Harle has a paper on gOpura. Kind regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Fri May 14 23:18:22 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 16:18:22 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) In-Reply-To: <19990514133554.1891.rocketmail@web307.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227048908.23782.18343626239313994304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Yes, there are a lot of "AyyangArs" in KarnAtAka who belong > > to the non-triad group. [...] In fact > > many can trace their roots to their ancestor who accompanied > > RAmAnuja from Srirangam for his 12 year exile in KarnAtaka. [...] > > The HebbAr and MaNDyam AyyangArs are converts to > > Shri-VaiShNavism. The HebbArs were originally Hoysala-KarnATaka > > SmArta brahmins. The MaNDyams are Jains whose ancestors RAmAnuja > > defeated at King BiTTideva's court. I don't think there is much proof that the Mandyam Sri Vaishnavas are descended from Jains. While it certainly is a possibility, I am certain that the Mandyams themselves will contest it, since they consider themselves descendants of those who fled with Ramanuja to Karnataka. It is also unlikely that converted Jains were accepted as brahmins into Ramanuja's fold. > What about the Hemmiges? I am a Hemmige Sri Vaishnava. (For those who do not know, Hemmige is a small village in the T. Narsipur Taluk, across the Kaveri from Talakkad. This is the main village. Over the years, eight villages in the Mysore area have come to be populated by the Hemmige Iyengars.) We are descendants of Sri Vaishnavas from Kanchipuram, and our dialect of Tamil attests to this. Many peculiarities of Kanchipuram Sri Vaishnava Tamil are evident in Hemmige Tamil, which is a mixture of this old Kanchipuram dialect, Sanskrit, and Kannada. In addition, the temple at Hemmige is of Varadaraja Swami, the same as at Kanchipuram. The story conveyed to me by a senior Hemmige Sri Vaishnava was that 800-900 years ago, the king wanted some brahmins in his kingdom, so he invited several families from Kanchipuram and gave them an agrahaara at Hemmige. As you can see, this migration is independent of Ramanuja's stay in Melkote. Hemmige is an exclusively Sri Vaishnava village as far as brahmins go. The rest of the population is Lingayat. Mani From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Fri May 14 23:28:00 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 16:28:00 -0700 Subject: wall lizard and vishnu In-Reply-To: <19990514223335.69373.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048910.23782.5944757740961391168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I do not know the legends but I do know that a sacred lizard is > associated with (at least) one of the temples of Kanchipuram. The lizard Ganesan speaks of is in the Varadaraja Swami temple. In the same building but around the corner from the hillock on which the deity stands is a small area in which devotees climb a ladder to touch a sculpted golden lizard on the ceiling. The lizard is quite large, at least four feet in length, and it is considered a must for any pilgrim to touch it. Nowadays the temple charges a fee of one rupee to go through this ritual. On my first trip to Kanchipuram, I skipped the lizard under the erroneous assumption that Sri Vaishnavas didn't go through this ritual. When my father learned of my omission, he was quite disappointed and rhetorically wondered how someone could go to Kanchipuram and return without touching the lizard. Mani From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Sat May 15 00:07:46 1999 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 17:07:46 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) In-Reply-To: <199905142318.QAA21402@shasta.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: <161227048912.23782.8614251878152097109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The jaina conversion theory was related to me by an uncle [we are hebbAr], but seems spurious. As far as ayyangAr dialects are concerned, does anyone know of phonologies/grammars/etc. of SrIvaiSNava dialects of tamil? The only study I know of is AK Ramanujan's essay on Iyer vs. Iyengar dialects in "Structure and Change in Indian Society" (Singer and Cohn eds.)... chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu On Fri, 14 May 1999, Mani Varadarajan wrote: > > > Yes, there are a lot of "AyyangArs" in KarnAtAka who belong > > > to the non-triad group. [...] In fact > > > many can trace their roots to their ancestor who accompanied > > > RAmAnuja from Srirangam for his 12 year exile in KarnAtaka. > [...] > > > The HebbAr and MaNDyam AyyangArs are converts to > > > Shri-VaiShNavism. The HebbArs were originally Hoysala-KarnATaka > > > SmArta brahmins. The MaNDyams are Jains whose ancestors RAmAnuja > > > defeated at King BiTTideva's court. > > I don't think there is much proof that the Mandyam > Sri Vaishnavas are descended from Jains. While it certainly > is a possibility, I am certain that the Mandyams themselves > will contest it, since they consider themselves descendants > of those who fled with Ramanuja to Karnataka. > > It is also unlikely that converted Jains were accepted as > brahmins into Ramanuja's fold. > > > What about the Hemmiges? > > I am a Hemmige Sri Vaishnava. (For those who do not know, > Hemmige is a small village in the T. Narsipur Taluk, across > the Kaveri from Talakkad. This is the main village. Over > the years, eight villages in the Mysore area have come to > be populated by the Hemmige Iyengars.) We are descendants of > Sri Vaishnavas from Kanchipuram, and our dialect of Tamil > attests to this. Many peculiarities of Kanchipuram > Sri Vaishnava Tamil are evident in Hemmige Tamil, which > is a mixture of this old Kanchipuram dialect, Sanskrit, > and Kannada. In addition, the temple at Hemmige is > of Varadaraja Swami, the same as at Kanchipuram. > > The story conveyed to me by a senior Hemmige Sri Vaishnava > was that 800-900 years ago, the king wanted some brahmins > in his kingdom, so he invited several families from Kanchipuram > and gave them an agrahaara at Hemmige. As you can see, this > migration is independent of Ramanuja's stay in Melkote. > > Hemmige is an exclusively Sri Vaishnava village as > far as brahmins go. The rest of the population is Lingayat. > > Mani > From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Fri May 14 19:58:48 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 21:58:48 +0200 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048924.23782.12829918871173551915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, some general after-thoughts inspired by this discussion. 1. How can it be that we do not know? Why is it not clearly stated in the texts, what is the locus of volition? Part of the answer may be that the writers and readers, the gurus and the ziSyas were not interested in (wordly) desires any more; it might have even been impolite to talk about them. They led a generally peaceful way of life, and volition occurred to them only in its disruptive, crudest material form, (typically sexual) desire: and a classification of this as material - perhaps even below the antaHkaraNa, a mere function of the indriya upastha - could appear evident. We also would talk about 'instincts' and 'drives' in this connection, not about will or decision. 2. The problem is actually even wider. Does the puruSa think? Understand? Remember? Decide? Imagine? Feel (happiness, pain, boredom)? Does it sense time? Some of these doubts are reflected in Nanda Chandran's remarks: > The question here is : is desire thought? ... > desire can never be linked with consciousness. Consciousness is only > knowledge - to be conscious, to know - The Purusha is only the knower and > the silent observer - and cannot be linked to desire. ... > The Purusha is MISTAKEN and identifies himself with > PrAkriti. The removal of this ignorance, the right knowledge - to KNOW - is > what brings about liberation. > We've to clearly distinguish between knowledge and thought (desire). We really would expect an answer from a system that analyses the cognitive faculties of man in such a detail: we have sattva, the indriyas, manas, ahaMkAra, buddhi (also the karaNa and antaHkaraNa), in some places also citta; and puruSa or kSetrajJa or draSTR. Perhaps the questions are really unanswerable. Perhaps the sAMkhya went too far with its analysis. That consciousness seems inexplicable in purely material terms is a convincing position. That some cognitive processes of humans are clearly dependent on material factors (notably the brain), can easily be shown. BUT: the unity of the human mind is not only given in experience, it seems to be presupposed by the logical structure of cognition. If somebody is MISTAKEN ("deluded"), that means that he entertains a proposition which is not true. When proper knowledgerises in him (samyag-jJAnAdhigama) that again seems to be propositional knowledge ('I am entirely different from anything in nature'), and that presupposes some means of thinking this proposition - perhaps a kind of language, and a way of referring to external things (prakRti). When within this body, the puruSa suffers, or at least partakes of suffering. Generally speaking, puruSa = consciousness (cetana), cannot logically be zuddha, i.e. objectless. It can be zuddha, pure only in an ethical sense (and also materially as 'unbound' to any part of nature). If my intuition is right and the difficulties are really insuperable, then possibly it is not mere chance that in some excellent texts we do not find these topics (memory, volition, experiencing, speculation, imagination, ...) mentioned. With best regards, Ferenc -----Original Message----- From: nanda chandran To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Friday, May 14, 1999 5:19 AM Subject: Re: Does Purusha will? >Ferenc writes : > >>The credit should probably go to the SAmkhya for setting right early on the >>real definition of "eternal" - that it is changeless. If they did not think >>that reality was changeless, why would they 1. Work out a superimposition >>theory and attribute all the work only to prAkriti? > >>>1. Work - bodily work - is done by matter and affects matter; soul cannot >>>do >>>it for many reasons, e.g. because it is non-spatial. > >But what about the workings of the mind? The mind too is subtle matter >according to the SAmkhya and thus, is prAkriti. And even a simple man with >no special knowledge of psychology, would naturally link desire to thought. > >The question here is : is desire thought? If it is, then it has to be only >the buddhi ie prAkriti, which desires. >And desire can never be linked with consciousness. Consciousness is only >knowledge - to be conscious, to know - The Purusha is only the knower and >the silent observer - and cannot be linked to desire. > >And AFAIK, all the traditional SAmkhya and Yoga, commentators, interpret it >this way. > >>2. Why would they define the Purusha only as pure consciousness? > >>>2. Pure means probably 'undefiled', and it is a rather general assumption >>>in some corners that the >>>spiritual sphere is superior, and defilements are bodily in origin >>>("carnal" desires etc.). > >"carnal", "desire" - even if carnal can be linked to the body, how can >desire ever be? It's a thought - the buddhi - prAkriti. > >Consciousness always implies the subject object relation. The subject being >conscious of the object. Here as long as the Purusha is conscious of >prAkriti and is not aware of himself, then there's the normal psychological >consciousness. When he has realized his ignorance, awakens and rests content >in himself, separate from prAkriti - then it's pure consciousness devoid of >the subject object relation - liberation - moksham. > >>3. And finally why would they cite >>ignorance as the true cause of bondage? > >>>3. If the soul is indeed superior it cannot be bound by what >>>is inferior; and as it is conscience, some negative _mental_ property must >>>be the cause of bondage. > >If mental property belongs to Purusha, then the buddhi would have been >defined along with the Purusha and not as prAkriti. > >Ignorance is not the opposite of knowledge, but wrong knowledge (if it was >the opposite of knowledge, the Purusha would be forever ignorant and no >liberation is possible). The Purusha is MISTAKEN and identifies himself with >PrAkriti. The removal of this ignorance, the right knowledge - to KNOW - is >what brings about liberation. > >We've to clearly distinguish between knowledge and thought (desire). > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri May 14 22:29:23 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 14 May 99 22:29:23 +0000 Subject: Rigveda: dravidian word vr.tra Message-ID: <161227048903.23782.15337468824901455115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Methodology: general semantics vr.tra is a term used repeatedly in the R.gveda in the context of Indra's exploits. The general import of the compound lexeme semant. is: enveloping, mountain or stone. [Indra breaks it (him) asunder and releases the waters]. tarukku = to break (Tamil); tar-upu = an artificial diamond (Telugu); tar_umpu = dam to stop a stream (Tamil) i'ira = gravel; vir'a, wirha_ = earth, soil (Kuwi); vira, vira'a = earth, soil (Kui) viri = spread out (Tamil) are-viri = half-opened (Kannada); ara-viri id. (Telugu); biri = to burst open, rent asunder, expand (Kannada); vira_ = to fall down, collapse (house)(Mand.a); berrna_ (birrya_) = to get out of shape by expanding sidewise as a mud wall (Kurux) If vr.tra is an a_pri representation, it would be a reasonable hypothesis that Indra (indha, burning ember) breaks asunder the ores (rocks) in the process of metallurgical extraction... >From Cologne Skt. lex. tra 1 mf(%{A})n. ( %{trai} Pa1n2. 3-2 , 3) ifc. `" protecting "' see %{aMsa-} , %{aGguli-} , %{Atapa-} , %{kaTi-} , %{giri-} , %{go-} , %{tanu-} , %{tala-} , %{tvak-} , %{vadha-} ; %{kRta-} and %{jala-trA}. vr.tra m. (only once in TS.) or n. (mostly in pl.) `" coverer , investor , restrainer "' , an enemy , foe , hostile host RV. TS. ; m. N. of the Vedic personification of an imaginary malignant influence or demon of darkness and drought(supposed to take possession of the clouds , causing them to obstruct the clearness of the sky and keep back the waters ; Indra is represented as battling with this evil influence in the pent up clouds poetically pictured as mountains or castles which are shattered by his thunderbolt and made to open their receptacles [cf. esp. RV. i , 31] ; as a Da1nava , Vr2itra is a son of Tvasht2r2i , or of Danu q.v. , and is often identified with Ahi , the serpent of the sky , and associated with other evil spirits , such as S3ushn2a , Namuci , Pipru , S3ambara , Uran2a , whose malignant influences are generally exercised in producing darkness or drought) RV. &c. &c. ; a thunder-cloud RV. iv , 10 , 5 (cf. Naigh. i , 10) ; darkness L. ; a wheel L. ; a mountain L. ; N. of a partic. mountain L. ; a stone Ka1tyS3r. Sch. ; N. of Indra(?) L. ; n. wealth (= %{dhana}) L. (v.l. %{vitta}) ; sound , noise (= %{dhvani}) L. Comments are welcome. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 15 11:04:55 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 15 May 99 04:04:55 -0700 Subject: Narayana's color Message-ID: <161227048918.23782.9962075462234746920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Some clarification on nara -> nArAyaNa may be useful. While > such a derivation of the word nArAyaNa from nara- may be >theoretically possible, cf. dak.sa -> daak.saaya.na, the tradition >does not derive naaraaya.na from nara-. It derives the word >naaraaya.na from the word naaraa (f. 'water', cf. aapo naaraa iti >proktaa.h) by adding ayana. According to two Sanskritists, nArAyana originating out of nArA (=water) is a later theological speculation. Vishnu sleeping in the Ocean of Milk may have more to do with Him being the God of Yadukulam. Please note that Vishnu is the God of Mullai landscape (land of iDaiyar (yAdhavas) amidst the five ancient Tamil landscapes in CT. Cologne Sanskrit Lexicon gives nArAyana from nara: "" nArAyaNa Meaning m. (patr. fr. %{na4ra} q.v.) the son of the original Man (with whom he is generally associated e.g. Mn. i , 10 ; he is identified with Brahma1 ib. 11 with Vishn2u or Kr2ishn2a TA1r. MBh. &c. ; the Apsaras Urvas3i1 is said to have sprung from his thigh Hariv. 4601 ; .."" Is this nara -> nArAyana connected to Drav. naLa -> nara? Kind regards, N. Ganesan > While the derivation of nALAyaNI from naLa, on the face of >it, may be similar to the derivation of daak.saaya.nii from dak.sa, > the derivation of naa.laa in naa.laagiri from na.la does not seem >so straight forward. Also the meaning 'black' for nala- is not >known in its Sanskrit usage. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat May 15 07:05:44 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 15 May 99 07:05:44 +0000 Subject: Rigveda: dravidian (?) word bunda, boiled rice Message-ID: <161227048914.23782.12297085936754530196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The r.ca: ... indro bundam sva_tatam (RV 8.77.6) Sa_yan.a: Indra smote (rain) from the clouds with his far-stretched arrow, he secured boiled rice (for men). I did not find a concordant lexeme for 'bundam', in Cologne Skt. lex. The close semant. are: pazUkhA [with -ukha_, cauldron (AV)] f. the pot in which the sacred an?animals is cooked or roasted Ka1tyS3r. (Skt.) pid.ita_na_ = to boil over (Gondi); pulagamu = rice boiled with green dal ? There is "kan2n2al" occuring in CT. Like nerunal-nen2n2al pair, is kan2n2al coming from karunal? "karunal" seeems to be repeating the same meaning twice, called as "mImicaic col" in tamil grammar. Both 'karu' and 'nal' denoting black. DED speculates ta. "al" (night) coming from "nal'. Is early sugarcane black in color? Your thoughts welcome, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat May 15 10:17:27 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 15 May 99 10:17:27 +0000 Subject: Rigveda: dravidian word taruks.a, cowherd? Message-ID: <161227048916.23782.3709954058735339773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote: > From the OTL:> toRu > 01 1. herd of cows; 2. cattle-stall...> otl tozu tozu 02 1. cattlestall, manger; 2. pound; 3. stocks; 4.> prison... In RV 8.87.2 duroNa is used in the sense of a home or residence. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Sat May 15 20:36:01 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Sat, 15 May 99 13:36:01 -0700 Subject: Narayana's color Message-ID: <161227048922.23782.8191819062551894786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Is this nara -> nArAyana connected to Drav. naLa -> nara? > > There is a known transformation pattern similar to naLa > nAra which is viLam > vIram "manai mA maram vAL vIram" (paripATal: 11:19) where the commentator says "vAL vIram = kU viLam" viLam is the vilva tree family. Chandra So there _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH Sat May 15 16:38:33 1999 From: Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH (Anand Nayak) Date: Sat, 15 May 99 17:38:33 +0100 Subject: An adress for Dr. Anand Amaladass/Tiwari /Roy In-Reply-To: <19990514045057.25631.rocketmail@web123.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227048931.23782.987626475852313841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You will certainly find some useful help at the Jnana Dipa Vidyapith of Pune. This Jesuit centre of learning has some fine indologists (unknown to our list) and can be of great use to give information on indologists in India. Contact Prof. Subhash Anand and Prof. No?l Sheth at Greetings. A. Nayak Dear colleagues, does anybody know e-mail or postal addresses of 1. Prof. Jagdish Narain Tiwari, formerly of Benares Hindu University, now retired and living in Delhi; 2. Professor S.N.Roy who was (in 1990) the Head of the Department of Ancient History, Culture and Archaeology at Allahabad University? Many thanks in advance, Yaroslav Vassilkov ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu vassilkov at hotmail.com >Hello, > >Does anyone know the email or the ground mail address >for Dr. Anand Amaladass of the Satya Milayam Research >Institute for Philosophy and Sanskrit in Madras? > >please respond. > >Thank you! > >Tim > > > > > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Route du Jura CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat May 15 23:15:43 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 15 May 99 19:15:43 -0400 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048926.23782.11499066525298610750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> These days everyday wants to be "original", "pure", "primal" etc. Nobody wants to be known as "secondary", "converted", "derived" etc. We have plenty of that floating around in modern India. Scratch the surface of any "original" Hindu and s/he will have you believing anything under the Sun including Hindus civilized the entire world. If we go by that, we would have to abandon all serious objective Indological scholarship. Yet, in the interest of true objective scholarship, I am open to what Mani Varadarajan has said. Also, many of the 12 AzvAzhars of the Shri-VaiShNava tradition were not brahmin. Yet they are held in the highest regard (MunivAhana for one) by followers of that tradition. Further, most Jain and Buddhist philosophers were themselves of brahminical origin, e.g. BuddhaghoSha in Buddhism and HaribhadrasUri in Jainism etc. Thanks for the info on the Hemmiges. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sun May 16 00:49:34 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 15 May 99 20:49:34 -0400 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048928.23782.18050447080294007895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With regard to comedian Nagesh, I have heard that he was a KonkaNI-speaking SArasvat brahmin who are all SmArtas. They are not be confused with the GauDa-SArasvats who are MOSTLY MAdhvas. This is the first time I have heard that he is a KannaDa-speaking MAdhva. Interesting! Thanks for the info. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 16 14:13:59 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 16 May 99 07:13:59 -0700 Subject: Sugarcane (kan2n2al) Message-ID: <161227048929.23782.5551921180024529061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We are indeed fortunate to have a poem by TiruJAn2acampantar (7th century CE) on his hometown, cIrkAzi where he employs karunal: iruvarkku eri Aki nimirntAn2 uruvil periyALoTu cErum *karunal paravai kamaz kAzi* maruvap piriyum vin2ai mAyntE. (Tevaram 1.34.9) "paravai" is formed from the verb "para" (to extend, to expand) Meanings of paravai are 1) Expanse, extent 2) Sea 3) The name of a woman, ... Usages like 'paravai alkul', "aaruurp paravaiyuL maN taLi" exist. "karunal paravai kamaz kAzi" = *The town, cIrkAzi, surrounded by sugarcane fields*; This meaning of Tev. 1.34.9.3 taking karunal as sugarcane is not hitherto recognized by Tamil pundits. I believe kan2n2al is formed out of karunal, just as a) pommal, porumal b) nen2n2al, nerunal c) cemmAn2, cerumAn2 pairs. In the Tamil literature, can I have a quote where paravai is used with the meaning of 'field'? For example, akam 44.16, 'pazam pal nellin2 pal kuTi paravai'. Thanks in advance. Regards, N. Ganesan <<< There is "kan2n2al" (sugarcane) occuring in CT. Like nerunal-nen2n2al pair, is kan2n2al coming from karunal? "karunal" seeems to be repeating the same meaning twice, called as "mImicaic col" in tamil grammar. Both 'karu' and 'nal' denoting black. DED speculates ta. "al" (night) coming from "nal'. Is early sugarcane black in color? >>> _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sun May 16 17:52:31 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sun, 16 May 99 10:52:31 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048933.23782.3424833464960915787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Balaji Hebbar wrote: > > The HebbAr and MaNDyam AyyangArs are converts > to > Shri-VaiShNavism. The HebbArs were originally > Hoysala-KarnATaka > SmArta brahmins. > >The MaNDyams are Jains whose > ancestors RAmAnuja > defeated at King BiTTideva's court. Unlike the > others, the > Tamil spoken by these groups is very > KannaDized. Would be much obliged if Sri Hebbar can share the sources of information for these esoteric theories. Thanks and Warm Regards. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sun May 16 20:10:01 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sun, 16 May 99 13:10:01 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048935.23782.12300050436840011722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Hebbar, The Nagesh you are talking may be a different one; Generally, I have not come across Konkani speaking SArasvat SmArtas in Dharapuram; Nagesh, the Tamil actor is from Darapuram near Palani. Regards. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon May 17 12:53:00 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 05:53:00 -0700 Subject: Epigraphic curses Message-ID: <161227048940.23782.9867141950472352376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not only the Nayak period inscriptions, but the imperial Chola and Pandya ones as well to get a full idea. Also, the curses by 'Saivaite Nayanmars on Jains and Buddhists, usually in 9th quatrain of every decad. Vaguely remember these curses figure in maNimEkalai, the buddhist epic too. Kind regards, SM _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon May 17 14:33:25 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 07:33:25 -0700 Subject: 4 NArAyaNas & KarnATaka Message-ID: <161227048947.23782.3801037510682928118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How old is this oral tradition? Few decades, OR perhaps a century? --- Balaji Hebbar wrote: > The State of KarnATaka is said to be guarded by the following > 4 NArAyaNas, each for one direction. Is there such a similar > oral tradition in the Tamil or Andhra countries with other > deities perhaps if not with NArAyaNa? > > 1. AmaranArAyaNa at KaivAra in KolAr Distt. for the East > worshipped by SmArta priests. > 2. CeluvanArAyaNa at Melukote in Mandya Distt. for the South > worshipped by ShrI-VaiShNava priests. > 3. ShankaranArAyaNa at Kota in South Kanara Distt. for the > West worshipped by SmArta priests. > 4. VIranArAyaNa at Gadag in Dharwad Distt. for the North > worshipped by MAdhva-VaiShNava priests. > > Regards, > B.N.Hebbar > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon May 17 14:48:47 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 07:48:47 -0700 Subject: Epigraphic curses Message-ID: <161227048952.23782.16166576710672569013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Rabe, If you look around, I am sure you will find earlier ones repeating that curse - "kaGkaik karaiyil kArAm pacuvaik kon2Ra pAvam" Best wishes. --- Michael Rabe wrote: > FYI, by chance yester day I found the proverbial needle in a haystack... a > Nayak period inscr on the 2nd gopura, Tanjavur, dated Zaka 1499 expired [AD > 1577], contains the very curse I need to help read the Nagappatinam > buddha's inscription. Published w/o estampage in tamil and Eng. trans. in > SII v.II, Part IV, no. 97. I know about other curses, from Mamallapuram's > "6 times dammed..." zaiva zApa, etc., but any more of this exact one will > help to date the sculpture in question. > Here's the translation from Hultzsch/Venkayya/Krishna Sastri: > "One who obstructs this charity shall incur the sin of having killed tawny > cows on the banks of the Ganges. One who obstructs this charity shall > incur the sin of having pulled out a thousand lingas." [p. 499] > > Thanks, > Michael Rabe > > > >Not only the Nayak period inscriptions, but the imperial > >Chola and Pandya ones as well to get a full idea. > > > >Also, the curses by 'Saivaite Nayanmars on Jains and Buddhists, > >usually in 9th quatrain of every decad. Vaguely remember these > >curses figure in maNimEkalai, the buddhist epic too. > > > >Kind regards, > >SM > > > >_____________________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon May 17 14:49:35 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 07:49:35 -0700 Subject: Upanishads, MahAyAna, Advaita Message-ID: <161227048954.23782.5958722751338107187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Mr. B. Hebbar wrote: > >I, together with my panDit teacher, have attended > >several tarkasabhAs in India where the traditional panDit > >community from all three principal schools of VedAnta have > >extensively argued for several days on "goodies" like "Tat tvam > >asi", "Sarvam khalv idam brahma", "neha nana'sti kincana" etc. > >All I can say is that neither is the problem an easy one > >nor the solution. Each sticks to his school of thought with > >great resourcefulness and tenacity. However, all leave the sabhA > >in peace and friendship!!! This has happened over the > >centuries. And it is this that must be admired. Even the > >royalty in the ancient times who patronized these scholars > >politely (and rightly so, in my opinion) remained neutral when > >these tarkas took place in their courts. On such example was > >the reigning NAyak of Tanjore in the 1500s had Appayya > >DIkshita (Advaita), TAtAcArya (VishiShTAdvaita) and VijayIndra > >TIrtha (Dvaita) in his court. At the end of the debate the > >king (it is said) remarked: "how can I choose between the > >three Vedic fires?" Dear Prof. Hebbar, I am interested in this story supposed to have happened at the Tanjore Nayak court. Is there any source narrating this episode? Kind regards, SM _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Sun May 16 22:36:41 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 09:36:41 +1100 Subject: Suggestion for users of INDOLOGY digest Message-ID: <161227048937.23782.8175875297900831747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It would help me (and maybe others) if individuals did not use subject lines like INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) which doesn't tell me what the posting is about. When responding to digest items it is probably better to use the same subject line as the original thread so that individuals following that thread know to read it. From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Mon May 17 15:38:00 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 09:38:00 -0600 Subject: Epigraphic curses Message-ID: <161227048949.23782.9105913499987973743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> FYI, by chance yester day I found the proverbial needle in a haystack... a Nayak period inscr on the 2nd gopura, Tanjavur, dated Zaka 1499 expired [AD 1577], contains the very curse I need to help read the Nagappatinam buddha's inscription. Published w/o estampage in tamil and Eng. trans. in SII v.II, Part IV, no. 97. I know about other curses, from Mamallapuram's "6 times dammed..." zaiva zApa, etc., but any more of this exact one will help to date the sculpture in question. Here's the translation from Hultzsch/Venkayya/Krishna Sastri: "One who obstructs this charity shall incur the sin of having killed tawny cows on the banks of the Ganges. One who obstructs this charity shall incur the sin of having pulled out a thousand lingas." [p. 499] Thanks, Michael Rabe >Not only the Nayak period inscriptions, but the imperial >Chola and Pandya ones as well to get a full idea. > >Also, the curses by 'Saivaite Nayanmars on Jains and Buddhists, >usually in 9th quatrain of every decad. Vaguely remember these >curses figure in maNimEkalai, the buddhist epic too. > >Kind regards, >SM > >_____________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Mon May 17 14:03:05 1999 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 10:03:05 -0400 Subject: thugs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048942.23782.11673962975725132788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Up to date and very good on the Thugs is Martine von Woerkens, Le voyagerur e'trangle': L'Inde des Thugs, Le colonialisme et l'imaginaire. Paris, ca 1995 (don't have the publisher handy). Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 Washington, D.C., 20052 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 2106 G St., NW Washington, D.C. 20052 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 On Mon, 17 May 1999, Graefe wrote: > Dear indologist, > I have just read "Thug or a Million Murders" (published in the twenties) by > James Sleeman, grandson of the 19th century suppressor of thuggee Sir William > Henry Sleeman. > I got interested in the subject, especially since the book gave rise to numerous > questions as: Why were there Mohammedian thugs? Of which exact origin is the > thug goddess Bhovani? Did thugee really become extinct? Why did the British take > so much pains to hunt the thugs down, when they allegedly did not attack > foreigners? And many more. > I wonder whether there is any recent (Indian or other) research on the subject - > ethnological, anthropological, theological or literary (which is an interesting > point as well)? Does anyone know? > Many thanks in advance - Ursula Graefe > From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Mon May 17 14:10:06 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 10:10:06 -0400 Subject: 4 NArAyaNas & KarnATaka Message-ID: <161227048944.23782.1823947992149813083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The State of KarnATaka is said to be guarded by the following 4 NArAyaNas, each for one direction. Is there such a similar oral tradition in the Tamil or Andhra countries with other deities perhaps if not with NArAyaNa? 1. AmaranArAyaNa at KaivAra in KolAr Distt. for the East worshipped by SmArta priests. 2. CeluvanArAyaNa at Melukote in Mandya Distt. for the South worshipped by ShrI-VaiShNava priests. 3. ShankaranArAyaNa at Kota in South Kanara Distt. for the West worshipped by SmArta priests. 4. VIranArAyaNa at Gadag in Dharwad Distt. for the North worshipped by MAdhva-VaiShNava priests. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Mon May 17 17:17:29 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 10:17:29 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 10 May 1999 to 11 May 1999 (#1999-55) Message-ID: <161227048960.23782.9525526694346632907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. B.N. Hebbar wrote: > These days everyday wants to be "original", "pure", "primal" etc. > Nobody wants to be known as "secondary", "converted", "derived" > etc. [...] > Also, many of the 12 AzvAzhars of the Shri-VaiShNava tradition > were not brahmin.Also, many of the 12 AzvAzhars of the > Shri-VaiShNava tradition were not brahmin. No one is denying that there have been conversions in all sects, including the Sri Vaishnava tradition. The question is whether it is historically justifiable to claim that certain groups of Sri Vaishnava brahmins are descendants of converted Jains. I don't think there is any evidence for this, and it does not make sense, given the brahminical society of that time. Case in point: Ramanuja's guru, Periya Nambi, came from the bRhaccaraNa sect of brahmins. Ramanuja's disciple Kurattalvan was a vaDama. Both families were Sri Vaishnavas. Yet, when a marriage was proposed between a relative of Periya Nambi and relative of Kurattalvan, there was very strong opposition from the vaDama side, because they thought they were the superior subcaste. Ramanuja had to personally intervene for the marriage to go ahead. This, when both were Sri Vaishnava, and both were brahmin. I find it extremely hard to believe that wholesale conversion to *brahminhood* could happen when there was such intricate caste-consciousness. The Jains may have been converted to Sri Vaishnavism, and the historical record supports this, but it is unlikely that they became brahmins, or were accepted as such in the 12th century. I am surprised at the ease with which theories are casually bandied about as fact on this list without any evidence, solid or otherwise. Mani From athr at LOC.GOV Mon May 17 15:03:33 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 11:03:33 -0400 Subject: thugs Message-ID: <161227048957.23782.11454633396808729264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The complete citation for the work that Alf Hiltebeitel mentions is: 96-100002 Woerkens, Martine van. Le voyageur etrangle : l'Inde des thugs, le colonialisme et l'imaginaire / Martine van Woerkens. Paris : A. Michel, c1995. 430 p. : ill. (some col.), maps ; 23 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: DS422.T5 W64 1995 SUBJECTS: Thugs. SERIES TITLES (Indexed under SERI option): Bibliotheque Albin Michel, 1158-6443. Histoire Bibliotheque Albin Michel de l'histoire. NOTES: Includes bibliographical references (p. 411-424). Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From Ursula.Graefe at T-ONLINE.DE Mon May 17 10:14:56 1999 From: Ursula.Graefe at T-ONLINE.DE (Graefe) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 12:14:56 +0200 Subject: thugs Message-ID: <161227048939.23782.17176257614109360623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indologist, I have just read "Thug or a Million Murders" (published in the twenties) by James Sleeman, grandson of the 19th century suppressor of thuggee Sir William Henry Sleeman. I got interested in the subject, especially since the book gave rise to numerous questions as: Why were there Mohammedian thugs? Of which exact origin is the thug goddess Bhovani? Did thugee really become extinct? Why did the British take so much pains to hunt the thugs down, when they allegedly did not attack foreigners? And many more. I wonder whether there is any recent (Indian or other) research on the subject - ethnological, anthropological, theological or literary (which is an interesting point as well)? Does anyone know? Many thanks in advance - Ursula Graefe From athr at LOC.GOV Mon May 17 20:25:33 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 16:25:33 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit lessons in Delhi Message-ID: <161227048962.23782.8645516750181768058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An Indian student resident in the US is planning to leave in 3-4 weeks to visit his family in Delhi for 1 to 3 months. He had Sanskrit up to his BA as one of his four subjects. He wants to use the stay in Delhi for intensive study to improve it. He has his paradigms down well and thinks a study of Paninian grammar (which he has not had much of) might be the best way. Can someone suggest someone in Delhi for intensive individual tutoring for the summer, or suggest to whom or where to go to find a tutor? Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 18 00:34:23 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 17:34:23 -0700 Subject: Navy and Navigation Message-ID: <161227048964.23782.8322916333018114582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> The art of Navigation was born in the river Sindh 6000 years ago. >> The very word Navigation is derived from the Sanskrit word >> NAVGATIH. The word navy is also derived from Sanskrit 'Nou'. A friend forwarded this circulating in cyberspace; supposedly this comes with a long list of ancient India's achievements. What is the currently held opinion in Indology on the words, Navy and Navigation? Please compare the following Tamil words: "nAvu" = 1) to thrust the tongue and move it sideways, 2) to winnow and clear grains from stones. >?From the root verb, "nAvu", many Dravidian words are formed; i) "nA/nAvu/nAkku" = tongue ii) "nAvAy" = ship, vessel, possibly because the ship rips apart the surface waters while in motion. iii) "nAvikan2" = mariner Navy and Navigation are ultimately related to Ta. words like 'nAvu, nAvikan, nAvAy" etc. Appreciations for telling more on the Sanskrit words for Navy and Navigation. Sincerely, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 18 01:22:39 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Mon, 17 May 99 21:22:39 -0400 Subject: 4 NArAyaNas & KarnATaka Message-ID: <161227048966.23782.8851086050612135038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hard to tell. Further investigation is needed. B.N.Hebbar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 18 11:33:51 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 04:33:51 -0700 Subject: Sugarcane (kan2n2al) Message-ID: <161227048973.23782.4209743572101395754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:13 16/05/99 PDT, N.Ganesan a ?crit : >>We are indeed fortunate to have a poem by TiruJAn2acampantar >>(7th century CE) on his hometown, cIrkAzi where he employs karunal: >> [....] >> *karunal paravai kamaz kAzi* >> maruvap piriyum vin2ai mAyntE. (Tevaram 1.34.9) >> >>"karunal paravai kamaz kAzi" = *The town, cIrkAzi, surrounded by >>sugarcane fields*; This meaning of Tev. 1.34.9.3 taking >>karunal as sugarcane is not hitherto recognized by Tamil pundits. Dr. Chevillard wrote: >Indeed, V.M.Subramanya Ayyar, who was a traditional scholar >(and a disciple of U.V.S.) takes that line to be > "karu naR paravai kamazh kAzhi" and translates it as: > <> [...] >A problematic occurrence is 3-120(11): >*VMS takes the line to be: > "kan2 nalam periya kAzhiyuL" > < of the walls of fortification>> >*TVG (T.V.Gopal Iyer) takes the line to be: > "kan2n2al am periya kAzhiyuL" [...] What made me wonder if kan2n2al is coming from 'karunal' is the phrases "kan2n2am kaREl" and "kan2n2am kariya". Does the "kan2n2am" contain "karu" and an "am" cAriyai?? In the TiruJan2acampantar poem where *karu nal paravai kamaz kAzi" occurs, a question is: Why would the sea issue *fragrance*? Note in the same decad where karunal paravai occurs talks of "garden/field" in 5 poems (kaTi Ar pozil, kaLi Ar pozil, kan2i Ar pozil, karu Ar pozil, kamazntAr pozil) and talks of sea in 4 poems (kaTal Ar puTai cUz, karai Ar pun2al, curakkum pun2al, kalam Ar kaTal). I have put "curakkum pun2al" as referring to the sea. However: Does "curakkum pun2al" refer actually to the sea? Or, it can mean just any water seepage, wells, etc.,?? How does VMS translate "curakkum pun2al cUz taru kAzi"? The verb, "kamaz" -'to issue fragrant smell' occurs in the very next poem of "karunal paravai **kamaz** taru kAzi" as "kamazntAr **pozil**" where 'kamaz' is clearly with respect to a "garden". Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 18 14:30:26 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 07:30:26 -0700 Subject: Upanishads, MahAyAna, Advaita Message-ID: <161227048979.23782.9183875798863183995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Prof. Hebbar for three references; I do not have them handy here, What is in the references? Is Shevappa Nayaka the first Tanjore Nayak? Was he the one who usurped power from a weak Vijayanagar Rayar? The first one was Private Attendant to the V. Raya whose job was to give tAmbUlam. Probably, he had NO sanskrit. Regards, SM _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 18 15:02:38 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 08:02:38 -0700 Subject: Sri Madvacharya Message-ID: <161227048980.23782.14722543316340191073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Hebbar, In the life histories of Madhvacharya, his visits to Madurai and Tanjore Nayaks are prominent; Did he win some debates in the Nayak courts of Madurai and Tanjore? Did Nayaks embrace Madhva philosophy later? Thanks a million. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Tue May 18 08:39:11 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 09:39:11 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit drama Message-ID: <161227048968.23782.13640158068631175245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A former student of mine has expressed an interest in the Sanskrit drama; at some point in the future she would like to work in this area, and is looking for suitable scholarly contacts. Any suggestions gratefully received: I will pass them on to her. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 18 14:07:55 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 10:07:55 -0400 Subject: Upanishads, MahAyAna, Advaita Message-ID: <161227048977.23782.15494257239057483814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Madhuresan: The NAyak of Tanjore then was Shevappa NAyaka. Vide the following with regard to the triangular debate between the three savants and their patronage at the NAyak's court. 1. Mysore Archaeological Report for 1917. In fact here is a portion of the text given to my teacher by the late M.H.Krishna, Director of Archaeology, Mysore. "tretAgnaya iva spaShTam vijayIndrayatIshvaraH tAtAcAryo vaiShNavAgrayo sarvashAstravishAradaH shaivAdvaitaikasAmrAjyaH shrImAnappayyadIkShitaH yatsabhAyAm matam svam svam sthApayantaH sthitAstrayaH". 2. Epigraphia Indica XIII p. 346 3. AravIDu Dynasty of Vijayanagar (Fr. Heras) p. 532. In fact when a quareel arose between the ShrI-VaiShNavas who controlled the ShArangapANi Temple at KumbhakoNam (headed by tAtAcArya) and the ShivAdvaitins who controlled the Kumbheshvara Temple (headed by Appayya DIkShita) as to who could use the community tank first, it was the MAdhvas under VijayIndra TIrtha (1514-1595) who were called upon to settle the dispute. VijayIndra TIrtha decided in favor of the ShrI-VaiShNavas. As a recognition of this favor, the MAdhvas to this day perform the "Naivedya pUjA" at the ShArangapANi Temple. All other pUjAs are done by the AyyangAr priests. VijayIndra TIrtha's brindAvana (cenotaph) is at KumbhakoNam. He was the grand-predecessor of RAghavendra TIrtha (1623-1671 dates indicate his pontificate) of MantrAlaya (Kurnool Distt, AP) where his brindAvana is located and known for many miracles. He is such a big legend in modern KarnATaka that I have seen LingAyats, AyyangArs, Muslims and (the real clincher) Roman Catholic nuns circumambulating his tomb!! If need any further info, I will gladly do my best to help you. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 18 17:23:59 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 10:23:59 -0700 Subject: Raghavendra Swami (was Sri Madvacharya) Message-ID: <161227048987.23782.12678273018794728711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the mistake; I meant Raghavendra Swami. Did R. visit Madurai and Tanjore courts, Thanks, SM --- Balaji Hebbar wrote: > Dear Sri Madhuresan: > > AcArya Madhva's dates are 1238-1317, well before the Nayakates > of either Tanjore, Madurai or Gingee ever came into being. The > 3 Nayakates mentioned are essentially feudatory spin-offs from > the ruins of the great Vijayanagar Empire which suffered its > downfall after the Battle of Talikota (against 5 Bahmani > Sultanates) in 1565. Even Vijayanagar itself had not been > founded during AcArya Madhva's times. > > B.N.Hebbar > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 18 17:59:32 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 10:59:32 -0700 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227048989.23782.12925172591644656672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc writes : >When proper knowledgerises in him >(samyag-jJAnAdhigama) that again seems to be propositional knowledge ('I am >entirely different from anything in nature'), and that presupposes some >means of thinking this proposition - perhaps a kind of language, and a way >of referring to external things (prakRti). Not necessary. There's something called intuition. This might be a common experience - you do not know something and are racking your brains over it. But suddenly you know it. Out of the blue, you've the answer. How does this happen? Intuition. Ofcourse, thought can also lead to knowledge. But that doesn't mean it's the only means. And thought can lead to knowledge only of external things - the object - and never of the subject itself, since the subject is itself the ground on which thoughts occur. Thus Self Realization is not known by thinking, but by intuitive knowledge - knowledge of yourself by yourself. >Generally speaking, puruSa = consciousness (cetana), cannot logically be >zuddha, i.e. objectless. It can be zuddha, pure only in an ethical sense >(and also materially as 'unbound' to any part of nature). Experience is the foundation of logic. But a subjective state devoid of object, is not common experience, which can be verified by anybody. If Patanjali tells you it is so, then he's a mystic, since his experience is not common experience and thus beyond logic. But that doesn't mean that such a state is not possible. >If my intuition is right No Ferenc, you're not using your intuition, but logically analyzing - thinking :-) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 18 16:05:11 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 12:05:11 -0400 Subject: Sri Madvacharya Message-ID: <161227048984.23782.11487652522754731274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri Madhuresan: AcArya Madhva's dates are 1238-1317, well before the Nayakates of either Tanjore, Madurai or Gingee ever came into being. The 3 Nayakates mentioned are essentially feudatory spin-offs from the ruins of the great Vijayanagar Empire which suffered its downfall after the Battle of Talikota (against 5 Bahmani Sultanates) in 1565. Even Vijayanagar itself had not been founded during AcArya Madhva's times. B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 18 16:11:30 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 12:11:30 -0400 Subject: Upanishads, MahAyAna, Advaita Message-ID: <161227048982.23782.8529336746964662628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vide "History of the NAyaks of Madura" by R. Satyanatha Aiyar (Oxford UPress 1924). There is one on the Nayaks of Tanjore as well. I have it in my library. Can't lay my hands on it to get you the bibliographical details. Please bear with me. Eventually I will find it. (hopefully, in this lifetime). In the meanwhile, is there someone out there who can give Mr.Madhuresan info on the Nayaks of Tanjore (Dr. Thrasher of LOC perhaps!) Thanks. B.N.Hebbar From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Tue May 18 19:16:20 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 12:16:20 -0700 Subject: Hindi Controversy At Duke Continues Message-ID: <161227048991.23782.7933245197424305431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See: http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/may/18us.htm Related to the above: 'Is putting silicon in one's breasts better than (studying) the Gita?' http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/may/12us.htm Excerpts: The editors of a conservative newspaper at the elite Duke University have alleged that that they were physically threatened for their objection to make the study of Hindi a major at the liberal school. But South Asian students said their allegation is a continuing effort by cultural conservatives to oppose multicultural studies at major American universities. One Indian student, who accused the conservatives of Nazi-like propaganda, feared that even if Hindi were made a major, the area of South Asian not going to gain. "Simply adding the option to major in Hindi, without permanently improving course offerings and faculty scholarship in Hindi, Sanskrit and Hinduism, will do nothing for the University except give it an artificial means of distinguishing itself from peer institutions," he said. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 18 16:32:22 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 12:32:22 -0400 Subject: AyyangArs in KarnATaka Message-ID: <161227048986.23782.3889867162070545159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As a corollory to the "AyyangArs in KarnATaka" discussion, it may be noted here that the ShrI-VaiShNava community in KarnATaka is confined to Maharaja's Mysore. In other words, there are no AyyangArs HISTORICALLY and TRADITIONALLY found in either coastal KarnATak (Konkan region) or Upper KarnATak (districts of former Bombay & Hyderbad-KarnATak, tho' ironically in Bombay city proper and Hyderabad city proper there are many AyyangArs). In fact some 20 years ago, I knew of an AyyangAr gentleman who was a bank manager in Davangere (which is still in "Maharaja's Mysore" area) had a hard time finding an AyyangAr priest to perform the ShrAddha ceremony of his father. He reluctantly got the services performed by a MAdhva priest (who was EQUALLY reluctant to discharge his priestly duties for an AyyangAr). Some compromise was effected and the event went thru without much incident. The bank manager gentleman eventually performed all future shrAddhas at Bangalore! Ergo, in coastal & Uttar KarnATak regions whenever the local population refers to VaiShNava brahmins it invariably means the MAdhvas! B.N.Hebbar From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Tue May 18 10:35:16 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 12:35:16 +0200 Subject: Sugarcane (kan2n2al) In-Reply-To: <19990516141400.68319.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048970.23782.5390922874755253993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:13 16/05/99 PDT, N.Ganesan a ?crit : >We are indeed fortunate to have a poem by TiruJAn2acampantar >(7th century CE) on his hometown, cIrkAzi where he employs karunal: > [....] > *karunal paravai kamaz kAzi* > maruvap piriyum vin2ai mAyntE. (Tevaram 1.34.9) > >"karunal paravai kamaz kAzi" = *The town, cIrkAzi, surrounded by >sugarcane fields*; This meaning of Tev. 1.34.9.3 taking >karunal as sugarcane is not hitherto recognized by Tamil pundits. Indeed, V.M.Subramanya Ayyar, who was a traditional scholar (and a disciple of U.V.S.) takes that line to be "karu naR paravai kamazh kAzhi" and translates it as: <> (in an unpublished translation which he completed before his death, but without revising it; it is kept in the French Institute Library and we plan to make it available on CD-ROM some day along with a concordance of Tevaram) One has to add that kan2n2al itself occurs several times inside Tevaram [4-43(10), 5-38(2), 5-93(6), 7-84(10)] A problematic occurrence is 3-120(11): *VMS takes the line to be: "kan2 nalam periya kAzhiyuL" <> *TVG (T.V.Gopal Iyer) takes the line to be: "kan2n2al am periya kAzhiyuL" Another point which has always surprised me is the mention of the sea in connection with kAzhi (=cIkAzhi) To-day there is at least a 20km distance from there to the coast but Tevaram says things like: "nalam koL muttum maNiyum aNiyum tiraL Otam kalaGkaL tan2n2il koNTu karai cEr kalik kAzhi" [2-59(1)] <> (VMS, transl.) Was the sea closer to the town at that time (7th century) or is it poetic exageration? -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) From nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM Wed May 19 00:17:19 1999 From: nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM (Nicholas Bedworth) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 14:17:19 -1000 Subject: aayadi sadvarga, vaastu proportioning measurements Message-ID: <161227049011.23782.7411132620829475807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We'd like to get a list of the main aayadi sadvarga formulae used in vaastu design. We are interested in the numerical part (e.g., length x breadth divided by 8 give some remainder) as well as the significance of each remainder (Simhaayam, good for courts, residences, etc.). Most works cite twelve formulae based upon the length and breadth (or the perimeter, in some cases). Also, we'd like to know how the owner's lagna and nakshatra relate to these formulae. The 12 main formulae are aadhaaya, vyaya, aayush, yoni, nakshatra, tithi, vara, lagna, varga, amsa, dhristhi, garbha. Got any ideas? From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 18 22:31:20 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 15:31:20 -0700 Subject: Subcastes of Madhva Brahmins Message-ID: <161227048993.23782.2661479599578990767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few days back, a list member had enumerated the various sub-castes to which the Madhvaite Brahmins belong. To this, I add that I knew a Konkanastha Chitpavan Brahmin family of Dharwad who traditionally were Madhvas. Their fanily name was 'Godbole' and they were devotees of Sri Raghavendra in particular. Their anscestors might have embraced the Dvaita Vedant sampradaya several generations back but as of today, their family is highly respected at Dharmasthala (if I remember correctly). Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Balaji Hebbar Subject: AyyangArs in KarnATaka Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:32:22 -0400 As a corollory to the "AyyangArs in KarnATaka" discussion, it may be noted here that the ShrI-VaiShNava community in KarnATaka is confined to Maharaja's Mysore. In other words, there are no AyyangArs HISTORICALLY and TRADITIONALLY found in either coastal KarnATak (Konkan region) or Upper KarnATak (districts of former Bombay & Hyderbad-KarnATak, tho' ironically in Bombay city proper and Hyderabad city proper there are many AyyangArs). In fact some 20 years ago, I knew of an AyyangAr gentleman who was a bank manager in Davangere (which is still in "Maharaja's Mysore" area) had a hard time finding an AyyangAr priest to perform the ShrAddha ceremony of his father. He reluctantly got the services performed by a MAdhva priest (who was EQUALLY reluctant to discharge his priestly duties for an AyyangAr). Some compromise was effected and the event went thru without much incident. The bank manager gentleman eventually performed all future shrAddhas at Bangalore! Ergo, in coastal & Uttar KarnATak regions whenever the local population refers to VaiShNava brahmins it invariably means the MAdhvas! B.N.Hebbar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 18 22:38:11 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 15:38:11 -0700 Subject: Upanishads, MahAyAna, Advaita Message-ID: <161227048995.23782.4998856688219969841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Vide "History of the NAyaks of Madura" by R. Satyanatha Aiyar >(Oxford UPress 1924). There is one on the Nayaks of Tanjore >as well. I have it in my library. Can't lay my hands on it >to get you the bibliographical details. Please bear with me. There is a book by V. Vriddhagirisan and C. S. Srinivasachariar on the Nayaks of Tanjore, published as part of the Annamalai University historical series, and another by Balendusekharam, published by the Andhra Pradesh Sahitya Akademi. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 18 22:48:56 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 15:48:56 -0700 Subject: Navy and Navigation Message-ID: <161227048999.23782.3759957898999125652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon ------------------------------------------------------------------ Entry nau Meaning 2 f. a ship , boat , vessel RV. &c. &c. ; (in astrol.) N. of a partic. appearance of the moon or of a constellation Var. ; = %{vAc} Nir. i , 11 (either because prayer is a vessel leading to heaven or ft. 4. %{nu} , `" to praise "'). [Cf. 2. %{nAva} and 7. %{nu} ; Gk. $ , &175727[571 ,2] $ , &c. ; Lat. {na1vis} , {nau-ta} , {nau-fragus} &c. ; Icel. {no4r} ; (?) Germ. {Nachen}.] --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sankrit "nau" is considered "vaac"; The reason given is "prayer is a vessel" or "to praise". Does Skt. 'nau' relate to Ta. nAvu (tongue, to move the tongue)?; Also, ta. 1) 'nAvAy' - ship, vessel, 2) 'nAvikan2' - mariner. May be because of ta. nAvu/nAvAy (tongue, ship), Goddess Sarasvati is said to reside in the "tongue" of Brahma. Is the River Sarasvati so named because of this "tongue/ship" semantic field? Regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 18 22:58:48 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 15:58:48 -0700 Subject: Dr. Thompson's dating of the Rigveda Message-ID: <161227049004.23782.14519453238442826237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Thompson's dating of the Rigveda at 1000 B.C.E raises a serious quesion. At present, we have about 200 Vedic texts (from Samhitas to Kalpasutraparisistas) extant. No Vedic scholar dates any Vedic text later than 4th Cent. A.D. We also know that the extant Vedic literature is a small fraction of what once existed and therefore can safely assume that there were literally more than a 1000 texts that existed once. Even in the extant Vedic texts, we get the feeling that they are separated from each other by several centuries (for instance, compare the Gopatha Brahman to the Rigveda Samhita). If we assume that Dr. Thompson is correct, then we will have to agree that 'Vedic Aryans' composed and compiled more than 1000 texts in 13 centuries. Can a semi-civilized nomadic community write such complex corpus? Patanjali's Mahabhasya states that there were 21 schools of Rigveda, 101 of Yajurveda, 1000 of Samaveda and 9 of Atharvaveda. Even assuming that the 1000 for Samaveda refers to something other than Shakhas, is it reasonable to assume that several 100 schools of Vedas arose within a mere 7 centuries? As for Patanjali's numbers for the other 3 vedas, they are actually on the lower side since we find names of more than 21 Rigvedic schools, more than 101 Yjurvedic schools and more than 9 Atharvana schools in the literature. Several of these Vedic texts clearly pre-suppose several centuries of development behind them. For instance, Yaska's Nirukta quotes 13 or so predecessors. That these quotations are not derived from 'floating oral traditions' but rather from actual written works is proven by the fact that many more citations of the Niruktas of Shakapuni, Galava etc. are encountered in commentaries on Rigveda, Yaskiya Nirukta etc. Now, Yaskiya Nirukta itself is dated by many as 6th Cent. B.C.E. So do you see the absurdity of Dr. Thompson's date. Consider again the Ashtradhyayi. Herein, Maharshi Panini quotes 2 dozen or so predecessors. A work (Siksa Sutras) of one of these (Apisali) has actually been published. Now Panini himself belonged to the Mahesvara Sampradaya of Vyakarana. There were the Aindra and other schools of Vyakaranas and manuscripts of these works existed as late as the 17th Cent. (see the Kavindracarya Sucipatra for instance). In fact, a fragment of a pre-Paninean grammarian's (Kashkritsna) sutras on Grammar as also the Dhatupatha have been discovered and also published. My point is that even the current extant texts pre-suppose several millenia of systematic development. Therefore, Dr. Thompson;s dating, based on a comparison of the other Indo-Aryan languages, to the neglect of a rigorous study of Sanskrit literature, is simply absurd. Sincerely, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: "N. Ganesan" Subject: Re: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by GregoryL.Possehl. Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:51:35 PDT Shanka writes: <<>> Unable to oblige your request as I simply wrote my understanding of what I read in Indology. Here is the exact wordings of Prof. Thompson on 18 oct 98: "Second, what is "the Vedic period", and where was it located [the focus of this extended thread, after all]? As far as I can tell, there is no significant gap between attested Scythian at the 8th cent BCE and the language of RV. What? Perhaps a couple of centuries? How old exactly is RV 8.46? And where was it composed? In my view, early Vedic, and in particular RV book 8, is better understood as the product of an Indo-Iranian culture, rather than as a strictly Indic one. I have made this assertion repeatedly on this list." What is the date of Rigveda? 3000 B.C. written in Harappa??? Do you have any concrete evidence to disprove Prof. Thompson? I also scanned thru' J. Lesley Fitton, The discovery of the Greek bronze age. Harvard UP, 1996. Astoninshingly, the vast Greek texts do not speak of Crete and Mycenae either. These cities have been found only recently. Why does it become inadmissible among the Indian powerful & mighty elites that 'Aryans, speaking a language akin to Old Iranian, entered India like what Indo-Europeans have done all over the world?' Example: Celts, Hittites, Greeks. Let me also quote Prof. Witzel, Harvard university, +Substrates exist anywhere in the world, except before the +Americas and Polynesia were first populated, comparatively +recently. E.g., Europe is full of substrates and no one denies or +deplores that. So why should it be different in South Asia? No one + *ever* entered ? N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 18 23:02:14 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 16:02:14 -0700 Subject: Dr Rajaram and Dr. Jha: Vedic Glossary of Indus Seals Message-ID: <161227049006.23782.11923409316406726228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Frosse had asked in an earlier posting of Dr. Rajram accepts the glossar of Dr. Jha. Here is a press release from Dr. Rajaram which suggests that he does accept it. This is just for the information of the List Members ____________________________________ Press release: WORLD'S OLDEST WRITING IS VEDIC The recently discovered sample of writing at Harappa, the oldest example of writing known, is a more primitive form of the Harappan script, according to Dr N.S. Rajaram, who, along with Dr. Natwar Jha, has read and deciphered the messages on more than 2000 Harappan seals. They are included in their book 'The Deciphered Indus Script: Methodology, Readings, Interpretations', to be released later this year. Recently, Dr. Richard Meadow of Harvard University announced the discovery of a piece of pottery at Harappa, with a written message on it. Dating to about 3500 BC, it is the oldest example of writing known and about a thousand years older than the bulk of Harappan writing. Dr. Rajaram was able to examine the writing by accessing the BBC website on which the piece of pottery was displayed. Based on this he deciphers it as 'ilavartate vara', which means 'Ila surrounds the blessed land (vara or 'the best')'. In the Rigveda, Ila is often used to denote the Sarasvati River. The message reflects the Rigvedic idea of the sanctity of the land associated with the Sarasvati. It could also refer to the ancient country 'Ilavrita', ruled by a king by the same name, who received it as a gift from his father Agnidru. Ilavrita also means 'surrounded by Ila', which made it blessed (vara). The writing found by Dr. Meadow is more primitive than the Harappan but clearly related to it. It can therefore be called pre-Harappan. Where the Harappan script uses a single sign to indicate all the vowels, the pre-Harappan, judging from the example, has no vowels. Instead it uses 'doubled consonants' to indicate vowels appearing at the beginning of words, a feature found in some Harappan examples also. This lack of vowels in pre-Harappan writing had been anticipated by Jha and Rajaram, which allowed Rajaram to decipher the writing almost immediately. In addition to being the oldest writing, the example shows that Rigvedic concepts already existed by 3500 BC. (The idea that the Vedic people were 'Aryan invaders' who came to India c. 1500 BC is no longer accepted by scholars though it finds mention in some books.) Since Vedic India has shown the oldest writing in the world, it is reasonable to suppose that the Vedic Civilization is also the oldest civilization in the world. This should make scholars reexamine the theory of Mesopotamia as the Cradle of Civilization. If there was such a Cradle, more likely, it was Vedic India. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 18 23:56:57 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 16:56:57 -0700 Subject: Homepage for dead systems Message-ID: <161227049009.23782.719401149946034197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm actually in the process of developing a home page on the six brAhmana darshanAs. But it's only in the initial stages and would take considerable time to complete. Atleast 3 - 4 months from now, I guess. The stress is not going to be on technicality - ie not as to the number of indriyAs and tanmatras as proposed by SAmkhya - but the basic logic behind the systems. What drove the respective philosophers to think on the lines that they did? The origins of their theories. Why did a commentator interpret a sutra in a particular way? How did the philosophy of a certain school develop in time and what prompted such a course? Why did certain schools support certain pramAnas, and not others? How did the systems influence each other? All these questions, I'll try to probe, but with what success and accuracy, only time will tell! My attempt would not be a mechanical philosophical exposition for scholars alone, but to "understand" BhArathiya philosophy corelated with normal life. Actually my interest in this venture is to further develop my own understanding of the systems. But I'm not going to stop with only the brAhmana darshanas, but explain the ChAravAka (especially JayarAsi's views) and the JainA systems too. I would appreciate it if anybody could help proof read my explanations and also point out the mistakes and make suggestions to improve the quality of the work. Rgds, Nanda _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 19 01:20:36 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 18:20:36 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit drama Message-ID: <161227049013.23782.10401753305448707981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >A former student of mine has expressed an interest in the Sanskrit >drama; at some point in the future she would like to work in this >area, and is looking for suitable scholarly contacts. Any >suggestions gratefully received: I will pass them on to her. Good scholarly contacts: 1) S. A. Srinivasan, On the composition of the Natyasastra, 1980, Reinbeck, 153 p. 2) Indu Shekhar, Sanskrit drama: its origin and decline, Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1980 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 19 01:33:41 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 18:33:41 -0700 Subject: Dr. Thompson's dating of the Rigveda Message-ID: <161227049015.23782.2502338393818497691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Shri Vishal, What is your taking as Rigveda's date, Like you, I also do not take Rajaram in toto. Let us take Rigveda to be composed in circa 5000 B.C. In the Western journals, they say PIE has not broken up by 3500 B.C. and PIEs were still near Ural mountains. Then the ground-breaking readings by Jha and Rajaram of IVC seals as Vedic will put the PIE homeland in India. Is that correct? Also, scholars say some major contrasts exist with what is known of Indus-Sarasvati culture and what we know about Aryan society from Vedic texts. Regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 18 22:49:11 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 18:49:11 -0400 Subject: Raghavendra Swami (was Sri Madvacharya) Message-ID: <161227048997.23782.12974221118366361479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Our Great Teacher Sri RAghavendra TIrtha was given sannyAsa at the NAyak Court in Tanjore by his predecessor SudhIndra TIrtha somewhere in the early 1620s. He ascended to the pITha of the PUrvAdi MaTha (later renamed the "RAyara" MaTha) on the demise of SudhIndra TIrtha in 1623. SudhIndra TIrtha was the immediate successor of VijayIndra TIrtha (1514-1595). The brindAvana of SudhIndra TIrtha is at Anegondi near Hampi on the banks of the TungabhadrA river. In those days, the PUrvAdi MaTha was based at KumbhakoNam. After RAghavendra TIrtha's time it came to be based in MantrAlaya. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 18 22:54:09 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 18:54:09 -0400 Subject: Home Pages for Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049001.23782.5633814606362687034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists: Would anyone with expertise start home pages for dead systems of Hindu thought, i.e. NyAya-VaisheShika, SAmkhya-Yoga, PrabhAkara and KumArila schools of MImAmsA. Just because they are dead, we cannot and should not ignore them! Afterall, they are BhAratIya and have much to offer. I am glad that the Professor from Hungary is keeping SAmkhya issues alive by his wonderful postings. Thanks Professor! Regards to all, B.N.Hebbar From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue May 18 19:15:28 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 19:15:28 +0000 Subject: Rigveda: a paradigm shift ininterpretation Message-ID: <161227048975.23782.11544299726563820670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A paradigm change in the understanding of the substratum language of the Rigveda may help us understand the processes of acquisition of wealth which were central to the entire yajn~a process. A very significant lexeme 'adri' may explain the context of 'Soma' preparation elaborated in the entire Rigveda. The general understanding is that 'adri' meant grinding stones (cf. Cologne Skt. lex. extract below). The Dravidian etyma make the understanding a bit more precise: 'aduru' connotes a metallic ore. Soma man.al in Tamil means, 'sand containing silver ore' (Tamil.lex. Madras Univ., cf. Winslow). The r.ca: adrin.a_ te mandina indra tu_ya_ntsunvanti soma_npibasi tvames.a_m... (RV 10.28.3) Sa_yan.a: Your worshippers express with the stone fast flowing exhilarating Soma for you, you drink them; they roast bulls for you, you eat them, when you are invoked, Maghavan, to the sacrificial food. [They roast bulls: you eat the cattle offered as oblations belonging to the worshippers who cook them for you]. Dravidian semant. 'ore': aduru = native metal (Kannada); ajirda karba = very hard iron (Tulu); ayir, ayiram = any ore (Malaya_l.am); ayil = iron (Tamil)(DEDR 192). adri m. ( %{ad} Un2.) , a stone , a rock , a mountain ; a stone for pounding Soma with or grinding it on ;a stone for a sling , a thunderbolt ; a mountain-shaped mass of clouds ; a cloud (the mountains are the clouds personified , and regarded as the enemies of Indra) ; a tree L. ; the sun L. ; N. of a measure ; the number seven ; N. of a grandson of Pr2ithu. (Cologne Skt. lex.) I am posting preliminary notes on a series of dravidian semant. and Rigveda at http://sarasvati.listbot.com (View Archive). Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 19 05:53:47 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 22:53:47 -0700 Subject: Date and place of Vaacaspatimizra Message-ID: <161227049019.23782.13523962119697482091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >I would appreciate information on the date and place of Vaacaspatimizra. >Thanks in advance. Place - Mithila, somewhere in modern Bihar. Various villages have been proposed, with all the usual things to be said in favor of each site and against each site. Date - One work of his gives a chronogram. If I remember right, it decodes to 846 in the northern calendar, but as always, there is sufficient feeling among critical scholars that this is slightly too early. There is a good summary of the research in the second volume of the Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies. I've found this set to be a very good ready reference for queries of this type. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 19 06:22:01 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 18 May 99 23:22:01 -0700 Subject: maThas and maThAdhipatis Message-ID: <161227049021.23782.2898958353428835313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Balaji Hebbar wrote: >successor of VijayIndra TIrtha (1514-1595). The brindAvana of >SudhIndra TIrtha is at Anegondi near Hampi on the banks of >the TungabhadrA river. In those days, the PUrvAdi MaTha was >based at KumbhakoNam. After RAghavendra TIrtha's time it came >to be based in MantrAlaya. Is there any traditional lore about how the pUrvAdi maTha came to Kumbhakonam? What is the origin of the pUrvAdi and uttarAdi maThas? It is interesting how closely a "maTha" is identified with the person of the maThAdhipati and his lineage, so that the institution moves with the monk. This doesn't seem to be very well appreciated in modern times, where the geographical location of a maTha is given central importance, so that people can't understand why there are disputes within a sampradAya. By the way, I have recently updated my essay on the contested succession in Jyotirmath, the principal northern SAnkara pITha. It is available under the link on position and review papers on the Indology home page (www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html). Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed May 19 04:51:23 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 00:51:23 -0400 Subject: Date and place of Vaacaspatimizra Message-ID: <161227049017.23782.12645180731689879246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would appreciate information on the date and place of Vaacaspatimizra. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 19 10:51:00 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 03:51:00 -0700 Subject: Sugarcane (kan2n2al) Message-ID: <161227049026.23782.16785424666713049472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ]]] Another point which has always surprised me is the mention of the sea in connection with kAzhi (=cIkAzhi) To-day there is at least a 20km distance from there to the coast but Tevaram says things like: "nalam koL muttum maNiyum aNiyum tiraL Otam kalaGkaL tan2n2il koNTu karai cEr kalik kAzhi" [2-59(1)] <> (VMS, transl.) Was the sea closer to the town at that time (7th century) or is it poetic exageration? [[[ Geology does not inform that sea moved out 20km creating new land. Probably, in these instances, it may merely refer to neighborhood of cIkAzi, like the modern Metropolitan area of Chennai. Let us look at the phrases describing kAzi (K.) in the Tevaram decad with *karunal paravai kamaz k.* Tev. 1.34.1 'kaTal Ar puTai cUz' - K. surrounded by the sea. (Is *kaTal* backwaters here?) Tev. 1.34.2 'karai Ar pun2al' - K. surrounded by banks of water. (Is pun2al(water) refer to the sea or bayous?) Tev. 1.34.3 'kaTi Ar pozil cUz' - K. surrounded by the *fragrance* emiting gardens. Tev. 1.34.4 'kaLi Ar pozil cUz' - K. surrounded by the joyful/delightful gardens. Tev. 1.34.5 'kan2i Ar pozil cUz' - K. surrounded by fruit tree gardens. Tev. 1.34.6 - has No reference to sea(kaTal) or garden(pozil). Tev. 1.34.7 'karu Ar pozil cUz' - K. sorrounded by dark dense gardens Tev. 1.34.8 'curakkum pun2al cUz' - K. surrounded by water springs (possibly because of the sea's seepage) Tev. 1.34.9 'karunal paravai cUz' - a) Traditional explanation: K. surrounded by black, good sea emmitting nice *fragrance*. b) if kan2n2al < karunal, then the meaning would be: "K. surrounded by sugarcane fields emitting smell". Tev. 1.34.10 'kamazntu Ar pozil cUz' - K. surrounded by *fragrance* emitting gardens. Tev. 1.34.11 'kalam Ar kaTal cUz' - K. surrounded by the sea with many vessels. Coming back to *karunal paravai kamaz kAzi*, V. M. Subramaniya Ayyar translates this as "good and blue sea issues its fragrance". This is problematic in that "sea issuing fragrance" is generally not known. On the other hand, when sugarcanes are in bloom or when jaggery is made in makeshift mills often in the canefields, a fragrance issues forth. This is recognized from Sangam era poets down to present day. Eg., "kAr karumpin2 *kamaz* Alai" - paTTin2appAlai (a CT text) "karumpu aTu kaLamar Alaik *kamaz* naRum pukaiyO!" - periyapurANam Tevaram saints sing of fragrant gardens on the seashore of kAzi at times; 1) 'kaTi *kamaz* cOlai culavu kaTal nAkaik kArONan2E!' - Tev. 4.103.1 kaTi= fragrance, cOlai = garden, NagapaTTinam is always on the sea shore. 2) 'kaTalvarai Otam malku kAzi, kAn2al pAn2al kamaz kazi' Tev. 2.84.11 Here, kAn2al (groves on the seashore of K.) and pAn2al (agricultural tract) are issuing their fragrance right in K. itself. Sung by the same TiruJaan2acampantar. Hence, plausibly *karunal paravai kamaz kAzi* can be translated as K. surrounded by sugarcane fields. Compare karunal, kan2n2al pair with the well-known a) nerunal, nen2n2al (=yesterday) b) perumAn2, pemmAn2 (='big man') c) cerumAn2, cemmAn2 (=leather worker, cf. ceruppu) d) porumal, pommal (=plumness). `karunal' (> kan2n2al) is formed from `karu'. The most commonly word for sugarcane, 'karumpu' seems to come from 'karu' also. Ancient sugarcane was black, this is indicated in PaTTin2appAlai (kArk karumpin2 - paT. 8); The ending "al" in kan2n2al is by the same process that can be observed in words like i) allal (affliction) ii) in2n2al (trouble) iii) min2n2al (lightning). Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 19 11:03:57 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 04:03:57 -0700 Subject: address: John Marr Message-ID: <161227049028.23782.17672624277449196126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Prof. Filipsky. Did you have a chance to read AthinAthan vaLamaDal? BTW, do you know where Marr published his article, Early Dravidians? Kind regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 19 13:11:47 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 06:11:47 -0700 Subject: Karnataka, Kannada Message-ID: <161227049031.23782.14590982623124364633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> KarnATaka has a region, malenAD which is cognate to ta. malainADu. It appears ancient Dravidian has "mountain" as one of the meanings of "kal". Consider 1) "ten2 kumari vaTa perum kal" - puRam 17.1 (Sangam text) South Kanyakumari and North big mountain (ie., Himalayas) 2) "kalliTaip piRantu pOntu kaTaliTaik kalanta nIttam" - Kavichakravarti Kambar River Sarayu being born in the Himalayas and flowing eventually into the Sea is described. Here too, "kal" = mountain. Ka. kannADu (ta. kan2n2ATu) will be equivalent to ka. malenAD. Also, see puRanAn2URu 60.7-8 "kazi uppu mukantu kan2n2ATu maTukkum Araic cakaTu" `Carts carrying salt from salt pans on the sea shore to the mountainous country' Here, explicitly "kan2n2ATu" (=kal+nATu) is referring to a hilly country. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 19 13:54:02 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 06:54:02 -0700 Subject: Home Pages for Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049037.23782.8960698085601350246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was planning to start one on Samkhya and another on Purva Mimansa. Any collaborators? TX Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Balaji Hebbar Subject: Home Pages for Dead Systems Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:54:09 -0400 Indologists: Would anyone with expertise start home pages for dead systems of Hindu thought, i.e. NyAya-VaisheShika, SAmkhya-Yoga, PrabhAkara and KumArila schools of MImAmsA. Just because they are dead, we cannot and should not ignore them! Afterall, they are BhAratIya and have much to offer. I am glad that the Professor from Hungary is keeping SAmkhya issues alive by his wonderful postings. Thanks Professor! Regards to all, B.N.Hebbar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 19 14:02:26 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 07:02:26 -0700 Subject: Homepage for dead systems Message-ID: <161227049040.23782.18307165839405862415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I offer to be one of the volunteers,. Please email me the files at vagarwal at csom.umn.edu Regards, Vishal Agarwal ----Original Message Follows---- From: nanda chandran Subject: Re: Homepage for dead systems Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:56:57 PDT I'm actually in the process of developing a home page on the six brAhmana darshanAs. But it's only in the initial stages and would take considerable time to complete. Atleast 3 - 4 months from now, I guess. The stress is not going to be on technicality - ie not as to the number of indriyAs and tanmatras as proposed by SAmkhya - but the basic logic behind the systems. What drove the respective philosophers to think on the lines that they did? The origins of their theories. Why did a commentator interpret a sutra in a particular way? How did the philosophy of a certain school develop in time and what prompted such a course? Why did certain schools support certain pramAnas, and not others? How did the systems influence each other? All these questions, I'll try to probe, but with what success and accuracy, only time will tell! My attempt would not be a mechanical philosophical exposition for scholars alone, but to "understand" BhArathiya philosophy corelated with normal life. Actually my interest in this venture is to further develop my own understanding of the systems. But I'm not going to stop with only the brAhmana darshanas, but explain the ChAravAka (especially JayarAsi's views) and the JainA systems too. I would appreciate it if anybody could help proof read my explanations and also point out the mistakes and make suggestions to improve the quality of the work. Rgds, Nanda _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 19 14:11:56 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 07:11:56 -0700 Subject: Homepage for dead systems Message-ID: <161227049038.23782.11377078886005714913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > By the way, we haven't tangled "tarka-style" in a while. I am > keen on a Advaita-Dvaita debate "continuing the tradition of > the NyAyAmRta and the Advaitasiddhi" Any takers from Srivaishnava side? Thought Advaita Chandran was aptly named coz of Prabodha Chandrodayam. PC was heavily criticized by Vedanta Desikan in his Sankalpa Suryodayam. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 19 14:21:11 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 07:21:11 -0700 Subject: Dr Rajaram and Dr. Jha: Vedic Glossary of Indus Seals Message-ID: <161227049042.23782.3881170003644400282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri. Agarwal, In one of Rajaram's web pages, he wrote an applauding review of Shrikant's work which seems to say that Aryan homeland is modern UP, then the vedic Aryans were spreading from there out west, quoting several puranic materials. Is the chronology outlined in the puranas, the basis for saying Sindhu-Sarasvati civilation is Vedic Aryan? Did Rajaram use Shrikant's findings to decipher the oldest writing from Sarasvati delta as Vedic Aryan? Thanks, SM _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 19 15:09:36 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 08:09:36 -0700 Subject: Scripts KannaDa/Telegu/SinhAla Message-ID: <161227049050.23782.6519949149090206571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> All are called Pallava grantha script; Not only Kannada, Telugu, Sinhala. Once I asked a Burmese, Khmer to read Kannada -they were able to read 80% of modern kannada. All South East Asian scripts (before Indonesian and Vietnamese were romanized) are developed from the Pallava grantha. --- Balaji Hebbar wrote: > A few days ago, when my friend the Ven. Uparatana Thera of > the Sri Lankan Buddhist VihAra in Washington DC area and > myself conversed found remarkable similarity between the SinhAla > and KannaDa scripts. We both wrote down the word "ShrI lankA" > in SinhAla and KannaDa and both of us could practically "read" > what the other had written down. I had heard somewhere that > the KannaDa and Telegu scripts were PAli based. Can some > knowledgeable Indological linguist educate and enlighten me > further on the Script affiliation of these languages? I am > fully aware that SinhAla is an "Aryan" language and that > KannaDa and Telegu belong to the Dravidian group. I am curious > about the script histories though. Thanks in advance. > > Regards, > B.N.Hebbar > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 19 15:44:30 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 08:44:30 -0700 Subject: Dr. Thompson's dating of the Rigveda Message-ID: <161227049052.23782.1897753367257873721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vishal Agarwal wrote: [...] > At present, we have about 200 Vedic texts (from Samhitas to > Kalpasutraparisistas) extant. [...] therefore can safely assume that there > were literally more than a 1000 texts that existed once. > If we assume that Dr. Thompson is correct, then we will have to > agree that 'Vedic Aryans' composed and compiled more than 1000 texts in 13 > centuries. Let us work with the extant texts, I do not see a big problem in composing them all over India over a period of 13 centuries. Didn't mahakavis have power to compose 1000s of songs overnite? > Therefore, Dr. Thompson;s dating, based on a comparison of the other > Indo-Aryan languages, to the neglect of a rigorous study of Sanskrit > literature, is simply absurd. Just the volume of texts may not necessarily lead to this conclusion. Regards. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 19 13:30:38 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 09:30:38 -0400 Subject: Upanishads, MahAyAna, Advaita Message-ID: <161227049033.23782.4641067188825003529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Shri Vidyasankar Sundaresan for the biblio info about the Nayaks of Tanjore books.--BNHebbar From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 19 16:35:05 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 09:35:05 -0700 Subject: Scripts KannaDa/Telegu/SinhAla Message-ID: <161227049055.23782.9677620098833062671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tamil grammar from TolkAppiyam(3rd century BC?) only has "ka" in the series of "ka, kha, ga, gha". (This is not to say that Tamil lacks "ga" sound.) All Indian writing, including Tamil, letters developed out of Asokan Brahmi. Because Tamil does not have separate letters for the aspirated or voiced sounds, Pallava grantha script was developed during the Pallavan era. The primary purpose was to write Sanskrit material. Even today, Tamil brahmin priestly books are in the grantha script. By the time Kannada and Telugu grammars were written, the alphabetical list was the same as that of Sanskrit. Hence the Pallava grantha was applied to write Kannada and Telugu. Since Southeast coast had marine contacts all over South East Asia, the same Pallava grantha came to be used there too. Regards, SM --- Balaji Hebbar wrote: > Dear Sri Madhuresan: > > Many thanks for the info. Why are Tamil and MaLayAlam scripts > different from these? or are they not? Perhaps they belong to > different sub-group? Kindly let me know. Also, TuLu once had > its own script which resembled the MaLayALam script. Today, it > is just a spoken language and we write to each other in > KannaDa only. Thanks. > > Regards, > B.N.Hebbar > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 19 13:50:43 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 09:50:43 -0400 Subject: Homepage for dead systems Message-ID: <161227049035.23782.17510215510794015560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks Nanda Chandran your special efforts on the homepages for all the darshanas. Indologists everywhere need to be grateful to you for this most thoughtful and useful service. I am especially interested in the dead darshanas. I shall look forward to reading them. Thanks again. By the way, we haven't tangled "tarka-style" in a while. I am keen on a Advaita-Dvaita debate "continuing the tradition of the NyAyAmRta and the Advaitasiddhi" as my good friend Shrisha Rao put it. Are you willing to come and debate with our scholars? Of course, it all depends where you are India, US-Canada, Europe? How good is your oral Sanskrit and at what level would you consider yourself for tarka. If you are amenable to a debate, kindly let me know. I will discuss the matter with the members of the Vishva Madhva Sangha during our convention in Detroit about to take place during the last weekend in May. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ Wed May 19 07:56:03 1999 From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 09:56:03 +0200 Subject: address: John Marr Message-ID: <161227049023.23782.14738930099018052163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: >I need the address of Dr. John Marr; Before retirement, >he was with SOAS, that post went to Stuart Blackburn now. > Dr. John R. Marr is still active in London's Bhavan teaching Indian music and other disciplines close to his heart. His postal address is Holme Farm, Woodham, Addlestone, Surrey KT15 3TG, U.K. I don't know if he has e-mail. J. Filipsky From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 19 14:22:56 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 10:22:56 -0400 Subject: Subcastes of Madhva Brahmins Message-ID: <161227049044.23782.698992299924223896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal: No doubt the "Godbole" family could be MAdhvas, but why are they much respected in Dharmasthala which is in South Kanara Distt. of KarnATaka? Can you find out for sure and let me know. Thanks. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 19 14:40:33 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 10:40:33 -0400 Subject: maThas and maThAdhipatis Message-ID: <161227049045.23782.11448329192726354958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr.Sundaresan: The three premier maThas of the "Deshastha" MAdhvas are the UttarAdi, DakShiNADi (renamed "VyAsarAya" MaTha and now based in Sosale, KarnATaka) and the PUrvAdi (renamed "RAyara" MaTha and now based in MantrAlaya, AP) MaThas. Normally, a maTha does not move with its reigning abbott. Because RAghavendra TIrtha happened to be a extraordinarily charismatic abbott, this happened. Similarly in the case of the "VyASarAya" MaTha. However, VyAsa TIrtha's brindAvana (cenotaph) is at Anegondi tho' the maTha is at Sosale. Further, it has been the pontiffs and paNDits of these 3 maThas that have been the intellectual defenders and fortifiers of Dvaita VedAnta over the centuries. As pointed out in an earlier posting, there are no Tamil-speaking MAdhvas. The MAdhvas in TamilnAd speak either MarAThI or KannaDa at home. (DeshabhAShA of course is Tamil). Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 19 15:01:14 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 11:01:14 -0400 Subject: Home Pages for Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049047.23782.6557653699853300334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to you Vishal Agarwal. Good show! Proud of you, Nanda Chandran et al for this. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 19 15:02:34 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 11:02:34 -0400 Subject: Scripts KannaDa/Telegu/SinhAla Message-ID: <161227049049.23782.1803096393858122799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few days ago, when my friend the Ven. Uparatana Thera of the Sri Lankan Buddhist VihAra in Washington DC area and myself conversed found remarkable similarity between the SinhAla and KannaDa scripts. We both wrote down the word "ShrI lankA" in SinhAla and KannaDa and both of us could practically "read" what the other had written down. I had heard somewhere that the KannaDa and Telegu scripts were PAli based. Can some knowledgeable Indological linguist educate and enlighten me further on the Script affiliation of these languages? I am fully aware that SinhAla is an "Aryan" language and that KannaDa and Telegu belong to the Dravidian group. I am curious about the script histories though. Thanks in advance. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Wed May 19 09:10:16 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 11:10:16 +0200 Subject: Does Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227049025.23782.8088610929532007492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [in reply to Nanda Chandran] Dear Nanda, >> When proper knowledgerises in him >> (samyag-jJAnAdhigama) that again seems to be propositional knowledge ('I am >> entirely different from anything in nature'), and that presupposes some >> means of thinking this proposition > > Not necessary. There's something called intuition. ... > Of course, thought can also lead to knowledge. ... > Self Realization is not known by thinking, but by intuitive knowledge - > knowledge of yourself by yourself. There seem to be three different aspects present: a process, a state (or action) and a disposition. When I get to know something (learning, discovering etc.) that is the process. When you "mentally see", currently think of, something that is the state. When you already know something (able to remember it when need arises) that is the disposition. Now intuition seems to be a process, while proper knowledge is either a state or a disposition. 'Thinking' can be used either for a process (I am thinking hard) or for a state (I think it's going to rain). The process seems to be by its very nature unpropositional, while the state (and more or less the disposition) is propositional. So perhaps you might get with a sudden flash of intuition at proper knowledge, still it will be propositional. Yours, Ferenc From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 19 16:15:06 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 12:15:06 -0400 Subject: Scripts KannaDa/Telegu/SinhAla Message-ID: <161227049054.23782.41228435739607919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri Madhuresan: Many thanks for the info. Why are Tamil and MaLayAlam scripts different from these? or are they not? Perhaps they belong to different sub-group? Kindly let me know. Also, TuLu once had its own script which resembled the MaLayALam script. Today, it is just a spoken language and we write to each other in KannaDa only. Thanks. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed May 19 12:34:52 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 14:34:52 +0200 Subject: Dr Rajaram and Dr. Jha: Vedic Glossary of Indus Seals Message-ID: <161227049030.23782.4975220923418926300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal schrieb: > Mr. Frosse had asked in an earlier posting of Dr. Rajram accepts the glossar > of Dr. Jha. Here is a press release from Dr. Rajaram which suggests that he > does accept it. This is just for the information of the List Members I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. I don't think I asked if Rajaram accepted Dr. Jha's work, because I have known that for quite some time. R. has supported J's work in several places as far as I can see, also in one of his books. But otherwise, thank you for the reference! :-) Lars Martin Fosse From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 19 21:45:59 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 14:45:59 -0700 Subject: maThas and maThAdhipatis Message-ID: <161227049059.23782.1006471154333335870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Normally, a maTha does >not move with its reigning abbott. Because RAghavendra TIrtha >happened to be a extraordinarily charismatic abbott, this There is always some background of political conflict behind a move in the first place, especially if the maTha has come to develop close relationships with local rulers. And influential maThas rarely lack for charismatic maThAdhipatis. The hand-picked succession tries to ensure this. For example, there was a period of more than ten years during the rule of Hyder Ali in Mysore, when the Sringeri maTha moved to Nasik in Maharashtra. It "returned," so to speak, only in the middle of Tipu Sultan's rule. What I'm saying is that when discussing the history of such institutions, the large amount of flux that is possible, especially in the formative years and in times of war, should be properly accounted for. Of course, modern scholars have hardly studied the institutions of Dvaita and Visishtadvaita critically, while greater attention has been paid to the Advaita institutions. It seems to me that Paul Hacker and Hermann Kulke have not appreciated the significance of these factors in their discussions of the Advaita institutions. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 19 22:00:51 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 15:00:51 -0700 Subject: Home Pages for Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049062.23782.6055618823063907173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Would anyone with expertise start home pages for dead systems >of Hindu thought, i.e. NyAya-VaisheShika, SAmkhya-Yoga, PrabhAkara >and KumArila schools of MImAmsA. Just because they are dead, >we cannot and should not ignore them! Before erecting online graveyards, shouldn't we first ask ourselves if these systems are really dead? vaiSeshika may be dead, or outdated, with its archaic notions of aNus and dvyaNukas, but nyAya seems quite alive, at least among the traditional pundits. This is not a totally extinct population, and it seems to me that nyAya can benefit from an exposure to modern science. After all, at some point in the distant pas, nyAya adopted concepts from vaiSeshika and vice versa. navya-nyAya can easily find a place for mathematics, and develop into an Indian form of formal axiomatic logic. We can't say that sAMkhya and yoga are dead either. They have simply reincarnated in the forms of various schools of vedAnta and tantra. It may not be well known, but many traditional daSanAmI monks specialize in sAMkhya study, notwithstanding their affiliation with Sankaran vedAnta. It is fashionable to call anything and everything vedAnta nowadays, but this is a different matter altogether. The mImAMsA schools may be the only major casualties, as they have been converted into prerequisites for vedAnta study in the traditional institutions. But so long as people behave ritualistically, there is always scope for a revival of the darSana. So, these schools may be dying, but let us not bury them alive. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 19 23:58:28 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 16:58:28 -0700 Subject: Does the Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227049066.23782.16186651291535841524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc writes : >There seem to be three different aspects present: a process, a state (or >action) and a disposition. When I get to know something (learning, >discovering etc.) that is the process. When you "mentally see", currently >think of, something that is the state. When you already know something >(able >to remember it when need arises) that is the disposition. Thought can be represented in only one form - process. It's an ever changing stream, one thought following the other. Even when you say you're "thinking" about something, it's but a succession of thoughts about a particular subject and not one single thought about the subject. This is the root, where the Bauddha concept of momentariness (ksAnikavAda), flowered from. Disposition involves existent knowledge and not thought. The knowledge itself might be the product of thought, is not thought itself. I don't think the linkage of "state" to thought, can stand critical analysis. Unless, you state the moment of the thought itself is the state. >Now intuition seems to be a process, while proper knowledge is either a >state or a disposition. 'Thinking' can be used either for a process (I am >thinking hard) or for a state (I think it's going to rain). >The process seems to be by its very nature unpropositional, while the state >(and more or less the disposition) is propositional. >So perhaps you might get with a sudden flash of intuition at proper >knowledge, still it will be propositional. Let's suppose I'm trying to sell a car to somebody. The person has seen it and likes it too. But he's haggling over the price, pleading that whatever he has offered is the best he can do. But my intuition tells me that if I stick to my guns he'll pay my price. Here when I saw that he liked my car, it did involve thought. The knowledge that he likes the car is the product of this thought. Then when he started haggling over the price, I've already gauged how much he'd pay for the car. This is due to the knowledge already accumulated and further thought due to his appearance, interest in the car etc. So my intuition that he would pay the price, is only due to the accumulated knowledge. Intuition doesn't involve thought. It's a sudden realization due to prior knowledge. In actuality, this realization, this knowledge itself is intuition. The Self - consciousness - knowledge - in truth already knows itself. At realization, it intuitively knows itself - intuition aided by prior knowledge. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 00:08:00 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 17:08:00 -0700 Subject: Home page for dead systems Message-ID: <161227049068.23782.4485680212450603464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Are you willing to come and debate with our >scholars? Of course, it all depends where you are India, >US-Canada, Europe? How good is your oral Sanskrit and at >what >level would you consider yourself for tarka. If you are >amenable to a debate, kindly let me know. No, Professor, I'm not the person to debate with your scholars. My knowledge of Advaitam is poor and it's even worse with Samskrutam. I plan to learn Samskrutam formally, when I return to BhArath in a few months. Probably in a few years I might be ready. Rgds, Nanda _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 00:10:06 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 17:10:06 -0700 Subject: Home page for dead philosophies Message-ID: <161227049070.23782.2683027564802878154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Any takers from Srivaishnava side? Thought Advaita Chandran was >aptly named coz of Prabodha Chandrodayam. PC was heavily criticized >by Vedanta Desikan in his Sankalpa Suryodayam. The name Chandran is actually my father's. And guess what his full name is? Probodh Chandran! _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 00:16:17 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 17:16:17 -0700 Subject: Sugarcane (kan2n2al) Message-ID: <161227049072.23782.9984292375761378086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Jean-Luc, Does 'paravai' in akam 44.16 *pazam pal nellin2 pal kuTi paravai* refer to the land/field or not? Thanks. Thanks to Chandra who located this gem: kurava nITiya kon2RaiyaG kAn2in2vAy varaku vALil tolaiccunar pATalin2 arava vaNToTu tEn2in2am yAzceyum *paravai mAnilam* pan2n2iru kAtamE. This CiivakacintAmaNi poem 1196 elegantly portrays millet harvesters singing and, the beetle and honey bees making music to resemble yAzh(Veena) accompaniment. UVS writes 'paravai maanilam' as "parappai uTaiya periya pUmi", (large tract of land). Hence, the usage of 'paravai' as land/field/tract is attested in the literature from early on. So, Campantar's line, *karunal paravai kamaz kAzi* can be translated as "KAzi, surrounded by sugarcane fields issuing its fragrance". Summary: karumpu=karunal=kan2n2al Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 00:30:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 17:30:29 -0700 Subject: DharmasthaLa Message-ID: <161227049074.23782.13721207652364230454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >DharmasthaLa (formerly KuDuma) What does kuDuma refer to? Is Dharmasthala on top of a hill? >Two huge BAhubali statues like the one in ShravaNabeLagoLa >are to be found in VeNUr and KArkaLa. Was vENUR ever called vELUR? Please refer me to books on place/river name studies in Karnataka. In A.P. as well. Thanks, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 00:31:39 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 17:31:39 -0700 Subject: Shiva Pan.cAkSharI Message-ID: <161227049075.23782.7987271402914690953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Three possible reasons - 1. The SatarudrIya has namaH SivAya ca SivatarAya ca, without the praNava before the five syllable mantra. The traditional praise of this mantra says that among the three vedas (leaving out the atharva), the yajurveda is in the middle, in this veda, the SatarudrIya is in the middle, in the SatarudrIya, the pancAksharI is in the middle. 2. From a non-Vedic perspective, the number five is specially associated with Siva, so that there would have been a tendency to get a mAntric equivalent. 3. Leaving out the praNava opens the field for non-dvijas. Perhaps, the story about the conservative opposition to Ramanuja's shouting out the eight-syllable mantra for all to hear was because of the presence of the praNava. As for the vIraSaivas, the six-syllable mantra, along with the praNava, allows an equivalence with their doctrine of shaT-sthala, so that may be why they say this is superior to the five syllable one. But such variations of the same mantra is nothing new. The SrIvidyA mantra has a fifteen syllable version and a sixteen syllable version. The Goddess of the latter is specifically called shoDaSI, in addition to being called tripurasundarI. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 00:37:39 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 17:37:39 -0700 Subject: announcement:change of URL Message-ID: <161227049077.23782.2610450667514344825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, The Advaita Vedanta Home Page has changed location to the following new URL - http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp I notice that many members of this list have put up links from their institution/department websites, to the old URL at www.cco.caltech.edu/~vidya/advaita. Those who connect to this old address will be automatically forwarded to the new one, but it would still be a good idea to update your pointers to go directly to the new site. Regards, Vidyasankar ps. In case anyone is wondering about the term avhp, it simply comes from the name of the site. No connection to vhp :-)) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 19 22:02:12 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 18:02:12 -0400 Subject: DharmasthaLa Message-ID: <161227049061.23782.14976749816671236209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DharmasthaLa (formerly KuDuma) located in the BelthangaDi tAlUk of South Kanara Distt. of KarnATaka is perhaps one of India's most cosmopolitan temples. It is a Shiva's shrine (ManjunAtheshvara and KanyAkumArI are the presiding deities) with worshipped conducted by MAdhva-VaiShNava priests in a Digambara Jain landlord's estate. The Jaina landlords, i.e. the HeggaDe family, are devout Jains, but come every day to pay their respects to ManjunAtheshvara. MAdhvas have no problem about conducting worship to Shiva. In fact, the god is given a due place in the Madhvite hierarchy of gods (devatAtAratamya) as enunciated in TaittirIyopaniShad II:8. However no ashes are distributed. (that would be an acceptance of the "jaganmithyA" deal). Instead as in all West Coast temples, sandalwood paste is given out. (pRthivi gandhavatI = jagat satya). In fact, even in the Madhvite "Rome", i.e. UDupi, the tradition is first to visit the CandramoulIshvara Temple (the kShetrapAla of UDupi), then the Ananteshvara Temple (the spiritual center of the TuLu brahmins) and then finally have darshana of UDupi ShrIKRShNa (the spritual center of the MAdhva-VaiShNavas). The PUjAs in those two Shiva temples are conducted by Madhvite priests and in the KRShNa Temple by the Madhvite abbotts of the 8 maThas instituted by Madhva by a system of rotation lasting two years each. There is also a large Jain population in South Kanara. Two huge BAhubali statues like the one in ShravaNabeLagoLa are to be found in VeNUr and KArkaLa. There are two Jain pontificates in South Kanara, one at MuDubidri and the other at KArkaLa. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 19 22:21:38 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 18:21:38 -0400 Subject: Shiva Pan.cAkSharI Message-ID: <161227049064.23782.5075158178765004680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Shiva Pan.cAkSharI "namaH ShivAya" is essentially emphasized (as far as I know) in both Tamil Shaivism and the SmArta SampradAya. Is there any reason why the praNava (OM) is left out. The only Shaivas that I know who say the ShaDAkSharI mantra (with OM included) is better than Pan.cAkSharI are the VIrashaivas of KarnATak. In fact, a speaker made a recent emphasis of this in the Basava JayantI celebrations that took place last weekend. In fact the OM is included in both the ViShNu aShTAkSharI mantra "Om namo nArAyaNAya" as well as the ViShNu dvAdashAkSharI mantra "Om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya". I am curious to know why the emphasis is on Pan.cAkShara? Thanks to any response. regards, BNHebbar From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 02:17:46 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 19:17:46 -0700 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227049079.23782.1898751642658240239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not necessarily. As counter examples, I refer you to the following works. You may or may not acept their conclusions, but the data collected in these works is truly impressive. 1. Vyakarana Shastra ka Itihasa (3 vols) in Hindi by Pt. Yuddhisthir Mimamsa, Published by Ramlal Kapoor Trust (Sonepat) 2. Prachina Samkhya Sandarbha by Pt. Udayvira Shastri; Published by Govindram Hasanand (Delhi) 3. Vaidika Vangmaya ka Itihasa by Pt. Bhagvadatta (3 volumes, latest edition by Pranava Prakasana, Delhi). The fact is that there are dozens of books written by these scholars but they lie unpublished because of lack of funds. For instance, Pt. Satya Srava (the sone of Pt. Bhagvadatta) wrote to me in a letter in 1989 that he does not have money left to publish a newer edition of his father's works. In fact, the two volumes on Kalpasutras and Upanisads were never published. He was able to translate (the translation is definitely much inferior in content and organization than the original Hindi version) of one of the volumes by the name "A History of Vedic Literature: Brahmanas and Aranyakas". In the introduction to the 2nd Edition of one of the volumes, Pt. Bhagvadatta had alleged that Dr. Bhattakrishna Ghosh had plaigrized a chapter of his volume on Brahmanas and Aranyakas to compose his PhD. thesis, which was later published as "Fragments of the Lost Brahmanas"- a well known work! While Dr. Ghosh has added a comparison between the Shatyayana fragments and the corresponding Jaiminiya Brahmana passages, there is an eerie similarity between the fragments in the two works. Reference also the Taittiriya Padapatha, Madhyanadina Padapatha, Katyayana Grhyasutra (or which the Paraskara Grhyasutra is an abrdgement) etc. published by Ramlal Kapoor Trust. Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Venkatraman Iyer Subject: Re: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 17:51:22 PDT >So be it. But then the traditional Pundits of India are no less trained >Vedicists. I have come across Rigvedins who will, from memory, point out >most of the Richas with the word 'Shambhar', Arya etc. if requested to do >so. There competence in the intepretation of >Vedic Sanskrit can be second to none. Dear Vishal, Having been employed in India and abroad for several years, I can confidantly say that traditional panditas have good Sanskrit knowledge, though not in Vedic. Sadly, it is also rapidly declining. However the traditional Indian ways of explaining do not stand upto close academic scrutiny. Indian pundits are not trained in the disciplines necessary to probe deep into the past, of India or other cultures. Yours, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 02:18:05 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 19:18:05 -0700 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. Message-ID: <161227049081.23782.5337713549010777885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not necessarily. As counter examples, I refer you to the following works. You may or may not acept their conclusions, but the data collected in these works is truly impressive. 1. Vyakarana Shastra ka Itihasa (3 vols) in Hindi by Pt. Yuddhisthir Mimamsa, Published by Ramlal Kapoor Trust (Sonepat) 2. Prachina Samkhya Sandarbha by Pt. Udayvira Shastri; Published by Govindram Hasanand (Delhi) 3. Vaidika Vangmaya ka Itihasa by Pt. Bhagvadatta (3 volumes, latest edition by Pranava Prakasana, Delhi). The fact is that there are dozens of books written by these scholars but they lie unpublished because of lack of funds. For instance, Pt. Satya Srava (the sone of Pt. Bhagvadatta) wrote to me in a letter in 1989 that he does not have money left to publish a newer edition of his father's works. In fact, the two volumes on Kalpasutras and Upanisads were never published. He was able to translate (the translation is definitely much inferior in content and organization than the original Hindi version) of one of the volumes by the name "A History of Vedic Literature: Brahmanas and Aranyakas". In the introduction to the 2nd Edition of one of the volumes, Pt. Bhagvadatta had alleged that Dr. Batakrishna Ghosh had plaigrized a chapter of his volume on Brahmanas and Aranyakas to compose his PhD. thesis, which was later published as "Fragments of the Lost Brahmanas"- a well known work! While Dr. Ghosh has added a comparison between the Shatyayana fragments and the corresponding Jaiminiya Brahmana passages, there is an eerie similarity between the fragments in the two works. Reference also the Taittiriya Padapatha, Madhyanadina Padapatha, Katyayana Grhyasutra (or which the Paraskara Grhyasutra is an abrdgement) etc. published by Ramlal Kapoor Trust. Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Venkatraman Iyer Subject: Re: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L.Possehl. Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 17:51:22 PDT >So be it. But then the traditional Pundits of India are no less trained >Vedicists. I have come across Rigvedins who will, from memory, point out >most of the Richas with the word 'Shambhar', Arya etc. if requested to do >so. There competence in the intepretation of >Vedic Sanskrit can be second to none. Dear Vishal, Having been employed in India and abroad for several years, I can confidantly say that traditional panditas have good Sanskrit knowledge, though not in Vedic. Sadly, it is also rapidly declining. However the traditional Indian ways of explaining do not stand upto close academic scrutiny. Indian pundits are not trained in the disciplines necessary to probe deep into the past, of India or other cultures. Yours, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 02:36:01 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 19:36:01 -0700 Subject: Vaidiks & Vedic Religion Message-ID: <161227049083.23782.17434006479440010410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Samar Abbas Subject: Re: Vaidiks & Vedic Religion Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:56:42 +0530 Mr. Abbas Wrote Does the term `traditional Vaidiks', mean that these people were not Arya Samajis ? Vishal replies: No, they were not Arya Samajis. For your information however, the founder of Arya Samaj, Svami Dayanand Sarasvati was an Udichya Samavedi Brahmin, but had completed the study of Shukla (Madhyandina) Yajurveda as well as the Purva Mimamsa in the tradtional manner by the age of 14. During his extensive travels over Uttarapatha, he successively came across more and more Vedic texts, as is evident when his writings are analyzed keeping in mind the chronology. For instance, in the first Edn. of Satyartha Prakasha, he recommends the 'Ranayaniya Sutras' under the study of Samaveda. This was probably because one of his patrons in the earlier years was a Ranayaniya family of Mathura. The specification 'Ranayaniya' is absent in his later works. In his works however, he quotes only the Gobhila Grhya. He also refers to a Saunaka sutra in the 'Samskaravidhi' and from context it is clear that it ought to be a Grhya sutra of Samaveda. Whilst it is the Vaitana Srauta which is called the Saunaka sutra, he obvioulsy has referred to the Kausika sutras. Some modern scholars however opine that the Saunaka sutra is a text available to Svamiji but extinct now (they point to the fact that Oppert has mentioned one Saunaka Grhya sutra in his catalog). Anyway, he has quoted some sutras from Katyayana Grhya which are not found in the Paraskara Gryha. Two decades back, the Katyayana Gryha sutra was published for the first time from some manuscripts obtained from Pune etc. and all the mysterious quotations were found therein. Another interesting thing is that he quotes the famous words "Vani bhutva parivrajeta' etc. from Jabala Upanisad as from Satapatha Brahmana. Perhaps he saw a manuscript of Jabala Satapatha (the Jabalas are a branch of Vajasneyins). This is rendered probable by the fact that he spent 2 full years in the Vindhyas- the tradition home of the Jabalas according the the text 'Yajurvedavrksa'. We might also then point out that Bhagvatpada Samkaracarya, who lived with his Guru in the Vindhyas for 2 years also quotes from the Jabala Sakha. Anyway, Svamiji had planned a visit to Madras in 1883 but he died before he could go there. Or else, he would have encountered a much stronger Vedic tradition there. From contemprorary (or near contemporary accounts like those of Pt. Lekhram), we discern that he encountered traditional reciters of Samaveda at Alwar, of Rigveda at Jaipur, of Yajurveda/Rigveda at Anupshahr in UP etc. I donot know if any recitors survive in these cities today. Regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 02:46:14 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 19:46:14 -0700 Subject: Koil in Aligarh Message-ID: <161227049085.23782.14675291331047003347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri Ganesan wrote: How far back Aligarh Koil goes in time? We have any stalapuraNas, inscriptions, etc.,? Vishal replies: I do not know. However, I did read in a History book that it was caled by that name at least at the time it its sack by Muslim invaders lead by Muhammad Ghori.Interestingly, despite a strong Muslim presence, the district still has a strong Brahmin community (20-25%) SriGanesan wrote: Can you please explain more on the Kawaria cult? Is anything written about them? Vishal replies: I only remember them in my childhood- they carried Gangajal from Haridwar to Meerut once a year and carried a wooden structure like thing (with Saivite Symbols) all along the route as they walked from the Ganga to Meerut. They are not allowed to keep the structure on the ground, and therefore when one Kawaria has to rest, another helps him out by holding it from him. Beyond this, I donot know anything and do not know of any literature on them. Regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 02:51:18 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 19:51:18 -0700 Subject: Subcastes of Madhva Brahmins Message-ID: <161227049086.23782.12429000548477038013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I lost all touch with the family after July 1993 and do not have their contact information. Sorry. Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Balaji Hebbar Subject: Re: Subcastes of Madhva Brahmins Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:22:56 -0400 Vishal: No doubt the "Godbole" family could be MAdhvas, but why are they much respected in Dharmasthala which is in South Kanara Distt. of KarnATaka? Can you find out for sure and let me know. Thanks. Regards, B.N.Hebbar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From garzilli at SHORE.NET Wed May 19 14:57:31 1999 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 20:27:31 +0530 Subject: XI World Skt Conf Message-ID: <161227049057.23782.8716906218755419591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: I would like to inform you that the Asiatica Organization (http//www.asiatica.org), where you can find the registration form to the next Skt conference is *not responsible* for the organization of the XI World Sanskrit Conference. We just wrote the WWW page -- as a service to Indological studies, and as a favor to colleagues and to CESMEO. For further info on the conference, please contact the organizers. Thank you, Enrica -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Thu May 20 04:15:14 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Wed, 19 May 99 21:15:14 -0700 Subject: kauNDinya < kuNDa ? (Re: Rigveda: dravidian word kun.d.apa_yya) Message-ID: <161227049090.23782.7570584251176199139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > In addition to Chandra's quotations: > ku.n.du as "deep", "hole" occurs a lot. Compare the common > phrase, "ku.n.d.u, kuzi". > > ku.n.tu = round vessel; > ku.n.tai = earthen pot; > ku.n.taa, ku.n.taan2 = pot; > ku.n.tam = tank, pot, pit > etc., > > Agastya, the kalasha muni, is famous in Java > and Kau.n.dinyavarman is the founder of Funan; > CT commentator says agastya leads the vELir expansion > to the South. > > Is kau.n.di.nya from ku.n.da? > > > SM Looks it might be so. In his commentary to tirumurkARRuppaDai stanza 178 "iruvarc cuRRiya pal vERu tol kuDi" where kuDi = gOtram, naccin2Arkkin2iyar says "kuDi kuNDin2ar, kAcipar enRAR pOlvan2a" meaning "gOthrams such as kuNDIn2a and kAcipa" [page 60 of "pattuppATTu: mUlamum uraiyum" by UVS Iyer], where it is obvious that kuNDin2ar = kauNDin2ya and kAcipa = kasyapa. Relevant to note also that kuNDikai is another word for the kamaNDalam or the small pot that rishis and brahmins typiclly carried. Another interesting word for that found in another pattuppATTu poem is "karaNDai": "An2Ru aRintu aDaGku aRiJar ceRintan2ar nOn2mAr ....iTTu vAyk karaNDai"... (maturaik kAJci: 482) Any relationship between kuNDa and karaNDai? Regards, Chandra _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 11:14:27 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 04:14:27 -0700 Subject: Sugarcane (kan2n2al) Message-ID: <161227049095.23782.4481050441374751484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Dr. Jean-Luc for useful info. What I have tried to show is that plausibly, "karunal" meant karumbu, kan2n2al. Campantar's usage *karunal paravai kamaz kAzi* may well refer to this archaic word since 1) 'paravai' can refer to "land/field" (cf. paravai mAnilam in cIvakacintAmaNi) 2) 'kamaz' = 'issuing fragrance' does NOT usually refer to sea in Tamil literature 3) On the contrary, the one poem before "karunal paravai", "kaTi kamaz pozil cUz" occurs (Fragrant gardens). The very next poem to "karunal paravai" is "kamazntu Ar pozil cUz k." I agree it will be great if one more usage of karunal as kan2n2al, karumbu can be found; I will ask tamizp pulavars in India. Let us take attested usages: 1) parutti, pan2n2al = cotton 2) karumpu, kan2n2al = sugarcane Is the "ru->n2" change similar in both? Kind regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 11:23:13 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 04:23:13 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit stone inscription (1500 years old) found in Central China Message-ID: <161227049097.23782.16076309872301379289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Sanskrit stone inscription found in central China Is this in the grantha script? If so, via the sea contacts. In 1956, a Tamil inscription on South China has been found, A Shiva temple talking of "kaDaliiccuram uTaiya nAyanAr". I think Gustav Ecke (UCLA) wrote a book on a Chola style temple in South China long time ago. Or, may be via Kashmir, Central Asia. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 13:01:52 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 06:01:52 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit stone inscription (1500 years old) found in Central China Message-ID: <161227049099.23782.3805953702667253600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For Chola style sculptures in China, pl. refer the rare book: Gustav Ecke, The twin pagodas of Zayton: a study of later Buddhist sculpture in China, Harvard Univ. press, 1935. BTW, I know well Dr. David Sanford who did his PhD with Ecke as his supervisor; Unfortunately, David does not write much! His film collection is UNPARALLELED, he has about *3500* rolls on Chola temples, sculpture etc., He has good collection on Kerala murals too. Many of these have disappeared, hope an institution can get them and house and process and make a selection of slides available from Dr. Sanford's collection. David lived in Kumabakonam for years. Regards, N. Ganesan >Sanskrit stone inscription found in central China Is this in the grantha script? If so, via the sea contacts. In 1956, a Tamil inscription on South China has been found, A Shiva temple talking of "kaDaliiccuram uTaiya nAyanAr". I think Gustav Ecke (UCLA) wrote a book on a Chola style temple in South China long time ago. Or, may be via Kashmir, Central Asia. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu May 20 13:57:44 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 06:57:44 -0700 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227049104.23782.18398588314792778442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >> That is an important prerequisite for their scholarship, and they are > >> proud of it. They have no faith in Western scholarship such as > >> philology, linguistics etc, and they prefer to construct their own > >> version of scholarship. > > Shrisha Rao wrote: > <<< > A very valid point; however, while completely disowning any affiliation > with Frawley, et al., I still must point out that "Western scholarship" of > Indic studies is often as guilty of the same sins, albeit in a slightly > different context. For instance, there are elaborate rules of philology, > linguistics, etc., in regard to the Vedas which have been around for ages > and are part of the classical Vedic tradition, which are conveniently > > ignored by people propounding "Western scholarship" (which of course > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > includes many Indians as well) of the Vedas, and said people may also be > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > rightly accused of not knowing what they're talking about -- a la Frawley. > >>> Interested in Indian authors who counter the works of Indigenous Aryanism. For example, negative criticism on the works by Frawley, Kak, Rajaram and Talegiri. References please. Is it done usually by authors with a Dalit background? Many thanks, SM _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu May 20 14:16:19 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 07:16:19 -0700 Subject: Indus Valley Script used by tribals in Bihar, May 1999 Message-ID: <161227049108.23782.14357950449133814971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You may be interested to read the work of a pioneer I.A.S officer; His findings of fauna and flora details from CT texts are unique. Indus script like writing is found amidst Tamil tribes too: P. L. Samy, I.A.S (Retd), Tamil nATTil CintuveLi ezhuttOviyam, Cen2n2ai: Cekar patippakam, 1984, 96 p. Regards, SM --- "S.Kalyanaraman" wrote: > Hi, > > Please check out the following URL: > > http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/munda/bihartribal.htm > > This is an abstract of a talk by Dr. Anand M. Sharan,professor of Mechanical > engineering at the Memorial University of Newfoundland. > > I am naturally thrilled by this report, since it adds grist to my hypothesis > that the inscriptions were lists of bronze-age weapons; Mundas of Santal > Paragan.as and Ranchi belt, are metallurgists par excellence... > > Best regards, > Dr. S. Kalyanaraman > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at > http://webmail.netscape.com. > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 14:40:54 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 07:40:54 -0700 Subject: kauNDinya - kuNDa ? (Re: Rigveda: dravidian word kun.d.apa_yya) Message-ID: <161227049110.23782.12637450309336764800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just to add a few more miscellaneous notes: KundIna is a place in Vidarbha and Vrttikara Upavarsa is said to be from there (Vide Avantisundarikatha of Dandin). And according to Taittiriya Kandanukramani, a Kundin (or Kaundinya) is said to be the Vrttikara of the Atreyi Sakha (very similar to Taittiriya). Of course, Acharya Kunda Kunda Deva is a famous Jain Acharya. Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Periannan Chandrasekaran Subject: kauNDinya < kuNDa ? (Re: Rigveda: dravidian word kun.d.apa_yya) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:15:14 -0700 --- Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > In addition to Chandra's quotations: > ku.n.du as "deep", "hole" occurs a lot. Compare the common > phrase, "ku.n.d.u, kuzi". > > ku.n.tu = round vessel; > ku.n.tai = earthen pot; > ku.n.taa, ku.n.taan2 = pot; > ku.n.tam = tank, pot, pit > etc., > > Agastya, the kalasha muni, is famous in Java > and Kau.n.dinyavarman is the founder of Funan; > CT commentator says agastya leads the vELir expansion > to the South. > > Is kau.n.di.nya from ku.n.da? > > > SM Looks it might be so. In his commentary to tirumurkARRuppaDai stanza 178 "iruvarc cuRRiya pal vERu tol kuDi" where kuDi = gOtram, naccin2Arkkin2iyar says "kuDi kuNDin2ar, kAcipar enRAR pOlvan2a" meaning "gOthrams such as kuNDIn2a and kAcipa" [page 60 of "pattuppATTu: mUlamum uraiyum" by UVS Iyer], where it is obvious that kuNDin2ar = kauNDin2ya and kAcipa = kasyapa. Relevant to note also that kuNDikai is another word for the kamaNDalam or the small pot that rishis and brahmins typiclly carried. Another interesting word for that found in another pattuppATTu poem is "karaNDai": "An2Ru aRintu aDaGku aRiJar ceRintan2ar nOn2mAr .....iTTu vAyk karaNDai"... (maturaik kAJci: 482) Any relationship between kuNDa and karaNDai? Regards, Chandra _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 15:50:47 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 08:50:47 -0700 Subject: Home page for dead systems Message-ID: <161227049113.23782.4633819044053460004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >We TuLus have cornered the South Indian hotel industry and our >KonkaNI bretheren the South Indian banking industry. You cannot do >any better than that! Dear Prof. Hebbar, As a kid, I remember Shri T. M. Pai visiting our fammily farm and stayed with us; He was a minister in Indira's cabinet, CS was minister of agriculture then, M. S. Swaminathan was the Secretary of Agriculture. T. M. Pai visited Coimbatore to start the Syndicate bank. I think Manipal educational institutions were started by the Pai family. Is Mr. Pai a TuLu or KoNkaNi? Kind regards. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From timlighthiser at YAHOO.COM Thu May 20 16:26:04 1999 From: timlighthiser at YAHOO.COM (Tim Lighthiser) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 09:26:04 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit Drama: Dr. Bharat Gupt and Sanskrit Drama Message-ID: <161227049115.23782.12937438788421488380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Below is the CV for Dr. Bharat Gupt. This is in response to Dr. Smith's request for scholary contacts in Sanskrit Drama. Note: forwarded message attached. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 13173 URL: From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu May 20 09:36:41 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 09:36:41 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit stone inscription (1500 years old) found in Central China Message-ID: <161227049088.23782.4038828696174810712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following news report may be of interest: Sanskrit stone inscription found in central China BEIJING: Chinese archaeologists have found a 1,500-year-old stone inscription carved in Sanskrit and Chinese near the city of Yueyang in China's Hunan province. The 1.7 metre by one metre inscription is located on a cliff at Junshan mountain near the city, Chinese news agency Xinhua quoted Wo Baihui, head of the International Indian Philosophy Institute, as saying. There are two Sanskrit words and two Chinese characters carved in the stone, Wo said. The Sanskrit words indicate good luck and the Chinese characters refer to deity and the universe. http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19990520/ige20071.html Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu May 20 09:51:27 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 09:51:27 +0000 Subject: Indus Valley Script used by tribals in Bihar, May 1999 Message-ID: <161227049092.23782.10678359159517037482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Please check out the following URL: http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/munda/bihartribal.htm This is an abstract of a talk by Dr. Anand M. Sharan,professor of Mechanical engineering at the Memorial University of Newfoundland. I am naturally thrilled by this report, since it adds grist to my hypothesis that the inscriptions were lists of bronze-age weapons; Mundas of Santal Paragan.as and Ranchi belt, are metallurgists par excellence... Best regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Thu May 20 13:55:30 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 09:55:30 -0400 Subject: VarAha Carama shloka Message-ID: <161227049103.23782.14748961609267578457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In support of their doctrine of Prapatti, the ShrI-VaiShNavas quote 4 Sanskrit passages. I know the scriptural citations for three, but have not been able to nail the fourth one down, i.e. the VarAha carama shloka. Here is the Sanskrit text: sthite manasi susvasthe sharIre satiyo naraH dhAtu sAmye sthite smartA vishvarUpan.ca mAmajam tamevam mRyamANAntu kAShTapAShANa sannibham aham smarAmi madbhaktam nayAmi paramAngatim. Is this from the VarAha PurANa? Thanks, B.N.Hebbar From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 17:03:32 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 10:03:32 -0700 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227049118.23782.16735020995906153731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not think that Chakrbarti really citicizes Sri Kak et al. At least the attempt is a total failure. Refer my earlier post on this issue. Thanks, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Paul Kekai Manansala Subject: Re: Gentoo studies Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:06:53 -0700 Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > > Interested in Indian authors who counter the works of > Indigenous Aryanism. For example, negative criticism on > the works by Frawley, Kak, Rajaram and Talegiri. References please. > > Is it done usually by authors with a Dalit background? > Dilip Chakrabarti, whom I consider one of the finest Indian Indologists around, critized Kak, Frawley et al. Of course, he also criticizes "colonial Indologists." The name "Chakrabarti" sounds like a Sakadweepi or other East Indian brahmin. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Thu May 20 14:15:44 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 10:15:44 -0400 Subject: Home page for dead systems Message-ID: <161227049106.23782.17464282449888623784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks Nanda for your reply. Wish well in your Indological studies in BhAratha. I am absolutely sure that you will turn out be an excellent scholar after your studies. Attend tarka sessions if you can. Every Madhva NavamI day (MAgha Shukla NavamI) the disappearance day of Madhva, paNDits from the Shankarite and RAmAnujite traditions are invited by the Madhvite pontiffs to their maThas to a vidvat sadas with the Madhvite paNDits. Go to the KRShNa Temple at Udupi around that time and you will have a feast both for the stomach and the soul. Remember there is nobody to beat us when it comes to South Indian vegetarian culinary. There is not a single town in South India which does not have a "Udupi-Hotel". We TuLus have cornered the South Indian hotel industry and our KonkaNI bretheren the South Indian banking industry. You cannot do any better than that! If you need a place to stay at Udupi, let me know. You will be taken care off well. Good luck! Regards, B.N.Hebbar From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Thu May 20 10:34:46 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 12:34:46 +0200 Subject: Sugarcane (kan2n2al) In-Reply-To: <19990520001617.86757.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049094.23782.7020915941842431806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A 17:16 19/05/99 PDT, vous avez ?crit : >Dear Dr. Jean-Luc, > >Does 'paravai' in akam 44.16 > *pazam pal nellin2 pal kuTi paravai* > refer to the land/field or not? Thanks. > Dear Dr. Ganesan, I would like to oblige ..., but (un)-fortunately, I am not a native speaker of CT :-) All I can say is that *C.E. Ramachandran, in his 1974 book _Ahananuru in its historical setting_, gives a draft translation of Akam-44, that is rather imprecise but reads like this: <<[...] azhumpil of perum-pUT-cen2n2i has thick forests, tanks in which elephants rest, and many households having stocks of old paddy. The town is known for its ever increasing prosperity. [...]>> *VMS, in an unpublished translation, kept in the French Institute Library, translates the same lines as: <<[...] never ceasing income like azhumpil (a place in pANTiya country) [15] old paddy in abundance, dense and spreading population [16] deep tanks in which elephants immerse themselves for bathing [17] and a deep forest for defence [17] [...]>> As you know, we are lucky to have these texts because Sangam literature was rescued in XIXth cent. by people like UVS (you remember chap.88 in his autobiography: "en2n2a pirayOcan2am?", don't you?). But, first of all this means that the tradition of UNDERSTANDING these texts is NOT UNBROKEN. This is why there are so many things we don't know for sure... I am always surprised to see people from time to time uncritically quoting meanings given for words in OTL. They seem to believe these words have all these meanings on an intemporal basis. I believe OTL is based on Tamil Lexicon (TL), but the quotations have been removed. There is no point in giving a meaning without quoting from a text. Some remark also has to me made on the relationship between DED (and DEDR) and TL. A dictionnary for a classical language (like CT) is a tool that is COMPILED. It does not substitute itself to the primary data (which should be critical editions and translations?) ... As regards "paravai", I have been able to find only TWO occurrences in the whole Sangam corpus. The second one is naRRiNai 378-4: "[...] teN kaTal "muzhaGku tirai, muzhavin2 pANiyin2, paipaya, "pazham puN uRunarin2, paravaiyin2 Alum" I know of 3 translations: *[A] G.Hart (1979:105, Princeton) <> *[B] A.V.Subramanian (1989:419, Thanjavur) <> *[C] N.Kandaswamy Pillai (1970, French Institute, unpublished) <> I do not know which one you will prefer. "Wide expanse" seems fitting. Coming back to Tevaram, the word "paravai" occurs 43 times there. If we remove the 10 occurrences in the phrase "paravaiyuL maNTaLi" (7-96), we still have 33 to examine, but I do not have time now to do that. We hope to release the Tevaram-concordance-cum-english-gloss next year (it will be Digital Tevaram 2000!) on a CD-Rom. I hope you can wait till that time :-) One last point: you asked >How does VMS translate "curakkum pun2al cUz taru kAzi"? Answer: <> I hope this is useful. Regards. -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) From aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Thu May 20 13:12:00 1999 From: aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Mikael Aktor) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 15:12:00 +0200 Subject: XI World Skt Conf. Message-ID: <161227049101.23782.10903772004180985952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Enrica Garzilli wrote: >I would like to inform you that the Asiatica Organization >(http://www.asiatica.org), where you can find the registration form to >the next Skt conference is *not responsible* for the organization of >the XI World Sanskrit Conference [...] >For further info on the conference, please contact the organizers. well, I have tried that several times without any reaction. have others had similar experiences? what are the reasons? Dr Mikael Aktor Department of the Study of Religion, University of Aarhus, Denmark From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Thu May 20 23:10:56 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 16:10:56 -0700 Subject: Shiva Pan.cAkSharI In-Reply-To: <19990520003139.43866.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049121.23782.947760231170330762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Perhaps, the > story about the conservative opposition to Ramanuja's shouting out the > eight-syllable mantra for all to hear was because of the presence of the > praNava. Looking at the earliest biographies, as well as the story as Ramanuja's tradition remembers it, Ramanuja did not shout out anything, much less the eight-syllabled mantra. He did, however, immediately teach many people the inner meaning of the mantra in direct violation of his guru's orders. Mani From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Thu May 20 23:16:13 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 16:16:13 -0700 Subject: VarAha Carama shloka In-Reply-To: <37441452.6992@erols.com> Message-ID: <161227049123.23782.736079484540428815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > In support of their doctrine of Prapatti, the ShrI-VaiShNavas > quote 4 Sanskrit passages. I know the scriptural citations for > three, but have not been able to nail the fourth one down, > i.e. the VarAha carama shloka. Here is the Sanskrit text: > > sthite manasi susvasthe sharIre satiyo naraH > dhAtu sAmye sthite smartA vishvarUpan.ca mAmajam > tamevam mRyamANAntu kAShTapAShANa sannibham > aham smarAmi madbhaktam nayAmi paramAngatim. > > Is this from the VarAha PurANa? This is known as the varAha carama sloka. It is not in extant versions of the varAha purANa. The three carama slokas (Gita, Ramayana, and Varaha) are used almost mantraically and are treated specially by the tradition. Recently, I saw a tract by the Tridandi Jiyar Swami which quoted a Narasimha carama sloka as well. This is not present in the early acharyas' writings. Sri Vaishnavas quote far more than these four in support of their doctrine of prapatti. You may wish to see Abhinava Ranganatha Parakala Swami's "gUDArthasangraha", a voluminous commentary on Sribhashya 1.1.1, where he discusses the origin of the prapatti doctrine in extenso. Mani From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 20 23:22:08 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 16:22:08 -0700 Subject: Dr. Thompson's dating of the Rigveda Message-ID: <161227049125.23782.10975342971671467680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Venkatraman Iyer Subject: Re: Dr. Thompson's dating of the Rigveda Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:33:41 PDT Sri Iyer wrote: What is your taking as Rigveda's date, Like you, I also do not take Rajaram in toto. Vishal replies: I am not competent enough to make a call on this issue. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 21 00:12:29 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 17:12:29 -0700 Subject: Dr. Thompson's dating of the Rigveda Message-ID: <161227049130.23782.4172080475725251899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shri Agarwalji wrote: > [...] Now, Yaskiya Nirukta itself is dated by many as 6th Cent. > B.C.E. So do you see the absurdity of Dr. Thompson's date. [...] >Therefore, Dr. Thompson;s dating, based on a comparison of the other >Indo-Aryan languages, to the neglect of a rigorous study of Sanskrit >literature, is simply absurd. This "neglect of a rigorous study of Sanskrit literature" cannot be said for Prof. Thompson; my friends tell that GT got his Doctorate from UC, Berkeley on Vedic Sanskrit. Among GT's many publications on vedas, I particularlt enjoyed a) On Truth acts in Vedic, IIJ, 1998 b) Ahamkara and atmastuti, HR, 1997 c) The brahmodaya and vedic discourse, JAOS, 1997 d) From 'footstep' to 'word' in Sanskrit, Semiotica, 1995 Your blaming is incorrect in this case, I am afraid. Regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu May 20 22:35:47 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 17:35:47 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies In-Reply-To: <19990520135744.5847.rocketmail@send304.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227049119.23782.1866465099692686431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Shrisha Rao wrote: >>I still must point out that "Western scholarship" of >> Indic studies is often as guilty of the same sins, ... >> For instance, there are elaborate rules of philology, >> linguistics, etc., in regard to the Vedas which have been around for ages >> and are part of the classical Vedic tradition, which are conveniently >> ignored by people propounding "Western scholarship" (which of course >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> includes many Indians as well) of the Vedas, and said people may also be >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> rightly accused of not knowing what they're talking about . >> >>> Which "elaborate rules of philology, linguistics, etc., in regard to the Vedas" are you referring to ?? Otherwise the above statement is empty ... ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Thu May 20 23:52:56 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 19:52:56 -0400 Subject: Home page for dead systems Message-ID: <161227049128.23782.4918180173528684087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan: You must be refering to the late Sri T.A.Pai, Minister of Railways (?) in late Mrs. Gandhi's cabinet. Yes, he indeed was one of the members of the great Pais of Manipal. His late uncle Dr. T.M.A.Pai was the genius behind the entire Manipal set up. He was the founder of the Syndicate Bank whose HQ is still at Manipal. Sri Ramesh Pai, the current head of the Pai family is a good friend of mine. He stays with me whenever he visits the DC area. The Pais are indeed KonkaNI-speaking GauDa-SArasvat MAdhvas. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 21 03:20:16 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 20:20:16 -0700 Subject: Epigraphic curses Message-ID: <161227049134.23782.9484473112949375093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Michael, If you can send me the grid photos, I can get it deciphered in TN, me having contacts with many Tamilists; I can particularly do it through Dr. ce. irAcu, Head, Dept. of Epigraphy, Tamil university; Raju discovered a 2-3rd century CE Tamil inscription (4 lines) with bharatanAtyam jatis. Called the aRaccalUr (near Erode) brahmi inscription, both Iravatham and Nagasamy have written on Raju's discovery and Mahadevan and Nagasamy write that this is the earliest inscription on Dance in India! For the sin of "killing tawny cows on the banks of Kaveri", see 100s of those statements in ce. irAcu, koGku nATTuc camutAya AvaNaGkaL, Social documents of the Kongu region, 1991, 417 p. ISBN 8170901855. Y. Subbarayalu has one similar, but not as comprehensive, on Tiruchy district. Heard that he and Karashima are in Sri Lanka documenting Tamil inscriptions. Some day, I hope you will be able to compare the 684 CE inscription from Srivijayan era in Indonesia with those of Pallavas in Mamallapuram and Kanchipuram. The art os South East Asia, 1998, H. N. Abrams, p. 340 "One of the inscribed stones relating to early Srivijaya is also sculpted. It was found in Palembang and dates from about 684. It contains a long list of curses against all those who commit any crime whatsoever against the king and the realm of Srivijaya. It speaks repeatedly of "curse water" and "drinking the curse". The stone containing this inscription has a remarkable shape, which seems to be related to its function (fig. 663). The top is decorated with a seven headed snake, the bottom has a spout. It is assumed that the ruler summoned high officials to the stone to have them drink the water that was poured over it and collected via the spout. This validated the curses. The motif of a snake on top of the stone is significant, for in various South and Southeast Asian countries a semantic relationship exists between snakes and water." Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Fri May 21 01:01:48 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 21:01:48 -0400 Subject: VarAha Carama shloka Message-ID: <161227049132.23782.11636495932594465539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr.Varadarajan: Many thanks for your kind reply. Is the work of HH Abhinava RanganAtha of ParakAla MaTha easily availible? Where can one obtain it. Thanks in advance. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From kekai at JPS.NET Fri May 21 04:06:53 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 20 May 99 21:06:53 -0700 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227049112.23782.13401826946561621891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > > Interested in Indian authors who counter the works of > Indigenous Aryanism. For example, negative criticism on > the works by Frawley, Kak, Rajaram and Talegiri. References please. > > Is it done usually by authors with a Dalit background? > Dilip Chakrabarti, whom I consider one of the finest Indian Indologists around, critized Kak, Frawley et al. Of course, he also criticizes "colonial Indologists." The name "Chakrabarti" sounds like a Sakadweepi or other East Indian brahmin. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Fri May 21 15:02:04 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 10:02:04 -0500 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227049147.23782.4215419112150463172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is easily answered... The Pandya, AND Cholas were traditional regional powers long long before the Pallavas extended their realm to include Cholamandala during the reign of Mahendravarman's father, Simhavisnu in the mid-late 6th c. MRabe >>the Gadval plates assertion that in c. 674 A.D. the Chalukya >> king Vikramaditya I first sacked Kancipuram and then continued >>southwards as far as Uragapura on the Kaveri. It seems >> perfectly reasonable, moreover to equate THAT Uragapura >>with the one Kalidas mentioned a couple centuries earlier, [but as a >>city of Pandyas]. > > Forgot to ask last time, > > Uraiyur, supposed to be uragapura of Gadval plates, is intriguing. > Just one or two decades before, Mahendravarman has excavated > the cave temple at Tiruchy - the famous Gangadhara panel > in the Rockfort. Was any area around Kaveri brought under > Pandyas between say, 640-680 AD? I thought Pallavas > were reigning supreme in the Chola realm then and > Pandyas have not risen at all. > > V. Iyer > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Fri May 21 15:08:08 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 11:08:08 -0400 Subject: DharmasthaLa Message-ID: <161227049149.23782.8935821787043039785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DharmasthaLa is located in the Western Ghats. It is on the banks of the NetrAvatI river which eventually works its way down the Ghats and empties out into the Arabian Sea at Mangalore. It is main source of water supply for that city. The kShetra came to be called DharmasthaLa only after the consecration of Man.junAtheshvara by VAdirAja TIrtha (1480-1600) the 20th Pontiff of the Sode MaTha of UDupi. When DevarAja HeggaDe, the then pALegAra of KuDuma, invited the Madhvite abbott, he refused to come on account of bhUta activities in the area. Later after much persuasion, it is said that VADirAja TIrtha through his mantra shaktis converted the chief goblin of the are "ANNappa" into a benign genie and asked him to fetch a linga from Kadri (a suburb of Mangalore). This the genie did. Then after placing a Narasimha sAligrAma, VAdirAja TIrtha consecrated the ManjunAtheshvara linga and put in charge MAdhva priests to conduct the worship services. He named DevarAja HeggaDe, the "DharmAdhikArI" for the kShetra. Ever since, the HeggaDe family has been in charge of the kShetra. The current DharmAdhikArI is one VIrendra HeggaDE. BhUta "worship" is common to many places in the West Coast, especially Kerala and Coastal Karnataka. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Fri May 21 10:41:19 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 11:41:19 +0100 Subject: Urgent message for Marina Orelskaya Message-ID: <161227049142.23782.2248842249287061771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am posting this on behalf of Prof. Saroja Bhate, who writes: Does any one know the e-mail address of Marina Orelskaya in Russia ? There is an urgent message for her. Please send the address directly to saroja at unipune.ernet.in. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From latapy at BONNIE.LIAFA.JUSSIEU.FR Fri May 21 09:57:27 1999 From: latapy at BONNIE.LIAFA.JUSSIEU.FR (Mathieu Latapy) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 11:57:27 +0200 Subject: Ketu and Rahu In-Reply-To: <199905202300.BAA16516@isis.lip6.fr> Message-ID: <161227049140.23782.15077652733874837472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indologists, in Indian studies, Ketu (the personnification of the comets) is often said to be the tail or body of Rahu, the demon of eclipses. Could someone give me any precise textual reference about this ? Thanks in advance. Magali Vacherot. From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Fri May 21 19:49:13 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 12:49:13 -0700 Subject: Sugarcane (kan2n2al) Message-ID: <161227049155.23782.12103546952706768280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote: > At 07:13 16/05/99 PDT, N.Ganesan a ?crit : > >We are indeed fortunate to have a poem by TiruJAn2acampantar > >(7th century CE) on his hometown, cIrkAzi where he employs karunal: > > [....] > > *karunal paravai kamaz kAzi* > > maruvap piriyum vin2ai mAyntE. (Tevaram 1.34.9) > > > >"karunal paravai kamaz kAzi" = *The town, cIrkAzi, surrounded by > >sugarcane fields*; This meaning of Tev. 1.34.9.3 taking > >karunal as sugarcane is not hitherto recognized by Tamil pundits. > > Indeed, V.M.Subramanya Ayyar, who was a traditional scholar > (and a disciple of U.V.S.) takes that line to be > "karu naR paravai kamazh kAzhi" and translates it as: > <> > (in an unpublished translation which he completed before his death, > but without revising it; it is kept in the French Institute > Library > and we plan to make it available on CD-ROM some day > along with a concordance of Tevaram) > > One has to add that kan2n2al itself occurs several times inside > Tevaram > [4-43(10), 5-38(2), 5-93(6), 7-84(10)] > > A problematic occurrence is 3-120(11): > *VMS takes the line to be: > "kan2 nalam periya kAzhiyuL" > < of the walls of fortification>> > *TVG (T.V.Gopal Iyer) takes the line to be: > "kan2n2al am periya kAzhiyuL" > The sea is actually described as *stinking*. The crowning glory of Indian literature cilappathikAram's poignant poems in "kAn2al vari" chapter exquisitely portray the ocean-side scenario [kAn2al = sea-side garden or forest; vari = a poem relating to dance]. "pulavuRRu iraGki atu nIGkap pozil taN talaiyil pukuntu utirnta kalavaic cemmal maNam kamazat tirai ulAvu kaDal cErppa!..." (cilap:7:39:1-2) pulavu = smell (of fish); nIGka = to rid (of the smell); maNam = fragrance; tirai = wave; kaDal = ocean; "...Oh my lover belonging to the sea-side town with forests where ocean waves frequent to get rid of their fish smell and pick up the fragrances of the sweet fruits and flowers lying on the floor..." Regards, Chandra _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Fri May 21 11:19:58 1999 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 13:19:58 +0200 Subject: Ketu and Rahu Message-ID: <161227049145.23782.864665637263454473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >in Indian studies, Ketu (the personnification of the comets) is >often said to be the tail or body of Rahu, the demon of >eclipses. Could someone give me any precise textual reference >about this ? I'm afraid I can't help you with references, but I thought you should know that from standard grahastotras and -namavalis it is clear that Ketu is supposed to be the detached head (shiromaatra) of the demon, while Rahu is the body (kabandha). In one version I heard, Vishnu, having decapitating Svarbhanu, attached a serpent's head to the trunk, and its tail to the head of the demon; these two hybrids became Rahu and Ketu. Regards, Martin Gansten From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU Fri May 21 04:28:11 1999 From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 14:28:11 +1000 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049136.23782.7616092289319310210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A student who is writing a thesis in political science in international relations would like to translate the terms jati and varna into English. She would like to know the currently accepted academic translations for these terms. She would also like to know if there is any academic precedent for referring to scheduled tribes as 'dalit'. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Richard Barz ANU Canberra richard.barz at anu.edu.au From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 21 21:32:50 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 14:32:50 -0700 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227049158.23782.13956697249788046790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan Subject: Re: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:02:03 PDT Vishal Agarwal wrote: >Tradition also ascribes the authorship >of a Tantric text called the 'Yogataravali' (recently sung by Madonna) to >Govindapada- who was the direct teacher of Sri Samkaracarya. In addition, >he is also said to have composed the text 'Rasahrdaya' and is said by >tradition, to have lived a long life by the use of drugs. Mr. Sunderesan wrote: Well, such traditions are very problematic in their origins. Consider this - Paramahamsa Yogananda (of the Self-Realization Fellowship) writes that one guru known only as Babaji is the same as Govinda Bhagavatpada. And there have been many who have identified themselves as 'Babaji' as he supposedly never dies. Now, anyone who knows some advaita vedAnta should know that physical death is hardly something to be avoided or postponed through the use of drugs or the 'alchemy' of the rasa-siddhas. What weight should one attach to such traditions? Isn't it much more possible that texts like Rasahrdaya were attributed by their authors to the guru of Sankara, in order to lend themselves the aura of orthodoxy and authenticity associated with the Sankaran tradition? Vishal writes: The tradition of Bhagvata Govindapada being adept at Rasesvara Darsana is a part of the Advaita Lore itself and is recorded in numerous traditional bigraphies. (I can find out some references if you insist). He is said to have lived very long and yet had the body of a young boy when his famous disciple arrived. Although Advaita does not indeed ask one to preserve one's body, yet the Yogins are indeed seen to live long. In modern times, we have the example of Devraha Baba of Mathura who lived a very long life. Nobody can say that he prolonged his life because of love of it. The counter example of Sri Yogananda does not have a bearing on this specific instance. That is what I feel. Best regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 21 21:48:18 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 14:48:18 -0700 Subject: Dr. Thompson's dating of the Rigveda Message-ID: <161227049160.23782.12502780912779728487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vishal Agarwal wrote: [...] > At present, we have about 200 Vedic texts (from Samhitas to > Kalpasutraparisistas) extant. [...] therefore can safely assume that there > were literally more than a 1000 texts that existed once. > If we assume that Dr. Thompson is correct, then we will have to > agree that 'Vedic Aryans' composed and compiled more than 1000 texts in 13 > centuries. Dr. Madhuresan wrote: Let us work with the extant texts, I do not see a big problem in composing them all over India over a period of 13 centuries. Didn't mahakavis have power to compose 1000s of songs overnite? Just the volume of texts may not necessarily lead to this conclusion. Vishal writes: The volume of texts certainly does not ensure that the Rigveda was extant before 1000 B.C.E but definitely greatly reduces the possibility of the same. The crux of my argument was not merely the existence of a large number of texts, but also that of a long tradition of development presumed by the texts themselves. In any case, What do you think is the probability that all texts from Rigveda to Apastamba Srauta Sutra (ascribed to 600 B.C.E by many of Dr. Thomson's category) could be composed in a 4 century period. If the Mathematical probability is very small, how can we make such an assertion with such boldness. And according to many, several sutras like those of Vadhula, Baudhayana are even older. Consider the richness of Brahmanic citations in Apastamba Srauta Sutras (refer to the relevant article at the website "Electronic Journal of Vedic and Tantric Studies" ). We clearly see that the Sutra is a very eclectic document. Have you ever studied the Viniyogas of Veda Mantras in the Brahmanas. Do you not think that at times they are highly artificial and that sometimes appear much removed in time from the Mantras? We are therefore talking of at least 3 stages: 1. Compilation/Composition of Basic texts 2. Vast theological treatises on these (Brahmanas) 3. Compilation of eclectic treatises (Sutras). What makes you think that all this was achieved in 3 centuries? How do you say so? What is the probability? The rhetorical retort on the Mahakavis is therefore worthless here and does not amount to much. Regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Fri May 21 20:01:11 1999 From: umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (Kristen Anne Hardy) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 15:01:11 -0500 Subject: gandhamAdana ? Message-ID: <161227049156.23782.17395654481825414725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Fellow-listmembers, I am puzzled over a reference I've encountered in the Ramayana'a YuddhakA.n.da (6.37.2, in the critical ed.) to "gandhamAdana." The only 'literary character' given in Apte's dictionary for this compound is RAva.na, yet this would not seem to fit the context, given that the list in this (and the following) verse evidently refers to the vAnaras who surround RAma to protect his fallen body. Can anyone shed some light on this reference? Am I overlooking something obvious? Kris Hardy graduate student, Religion and Sanskrit, University of Manitoba umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 21 22:01:53 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 15:01:53 -0700 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227049162.23782.16476992957843363524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Vishal writes: The tradition of Bhagvata Govindapada being adept at >Rasesvara Darsana is a part of the Advaita Lore itself and is recorded in >numerous traditional bigraphies. (I can find out some references if you >insist). He is said to have lived very long and yet had the body of a young >boy when his famous disciple arrived. Although Advaita does not Yes, I would like a reference or two. That Govinda Bhagavatpada lived a long life is an old tradition, but the connection to the raseSvara school and the legend that he had the body of a young boy don't seem to be so. Our mythology has many figures who lived long lives, but without any reference to raseSvara techniques. I haven't seen any such reference in the mAdhavIya, anantAnandagirIya, cidvilAsIya or keralIya Sankaravijaya texts, nor in the SankarAbhyudayas. >indeed ask >one to preserve one's body, yet the Yogins are indeed seen to live long. In >modern times, we have the example of Devraha Baba of Mathura who lived a >very long life. Nobody can say that he prolonged his life because of love >of >it. Agreed, but the notion that Govinda Bhagavatpada prolonged his life through the use of drugs is a rather strange one for Advaita lore, and indeed a completely new one to me personally. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 21 22:14:16 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 15:14:16 -0700 Subject: Rigvidhana and Prof. Gonda Message-ID: <161227049163.23782.6668398224670063262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Paul Kekai Manansala Subject: Re: Gentoo Studies Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 05:57:54 -0700 Vishal Agarwal wrote: > As an instance, I refer Indologists to 'Vedic Tantrism' (A translation of Saunakiya Rigvidhana) in which Dr. Bhatta has shown the stark absurdities of the earlier translation of the text by Dr. Gonda. The absurdities in Dr. Gonda's translations are so glaring that one is let perplexed. > Vishal, could you give an example or two of these absurdities? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala __________________________ Vishal writes: The book referred to here is 'Vedic Tantrism' by M.S. Bhat; Motilal Banarsidass; 1987 1. VERSE 1.7: Here, the word Brahmana means the 'Brahmin caste' while Dr. Gonda translates it otherwise, ignoring the fact that succeeding verses talk of the other 3 castes (Pg. 282) 2. VERSE 1.22: Prof. Gonda has mistranslated the expression 'Avasanasya Pati' as "The lord of Death". This violates the context. (Pg. 285) 3. VERSE 1.112: The word 'Vasamsi' is mistranslated by Dr. Gonda as 'residences'. The correct translation viz. clothes, is given by Dr. Bhat. (Pg. 303) I suggest you read the book yourself and compare the translation of Bhat and Gonda with the original text. You will then discern what I meant. Best regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 21 23:05:57 1999 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 16:05:57 -0700 Subject: Dr. Thompson's dating of the Rigveda Message-ID: <161227049166.23782.2284752771265014167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vishal Agarwal wrote: Dr. Madhuresan wrote: Let us work with the extant texts, I do not see a big problem in composing them all over India over a period of 13 centuries. Didn't mahakavis have power to compose 1000s of songs overnite? Just the volume of texts may not necessarily lead to this conclusion. Vishal writes: What makes you think that all this was achieved in 3 centuries? How do you say so? What is the probability? The rhetorical retort on the Mahakavis is therefore worthless here and does not amount to much. Misrepresentation using rhetorics! I do not think Dr. Madhuresan is committed to the thought that "all this was achieved in 3 centuries". Prasad _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Fri May 21 23:10:21 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 16:10:21 -0700 Subject: VarAha Carama shloka In-Reply-To: <3744B07C.2DBB@erols.com> Message-ID: <161227049169.23782.7078917529808817789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Many thanks for your kind reply. Is the work of HH Abhinava > RanganAtha of ParakAla MaTha easily availible? Where can one > obtain it. Thanks in advance. As with many publications of these maThas, it is out of print. If you go to the parakAla maTha in Mysore, you may be able to find a copy. I located one in the back of one of their bookshelves several years back. You may be known Krishna Kalale in San Diego; he has a copy. "Gudarthasangraha" was Abhinava Ranganatha Parakala Swami's masterpiece and truly demonstrated his mastery of the various systems of Vedanta. Every Advaitic pUrvapaksha in Ramanuja's commentary on VS 1.1.1 is traced to their Advaita sources. Mani From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Fri May 21 15:37:44 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 17:37:44 +0200 Subject: Home Pages for Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049151.23782.7251237495113883942.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Before erecting online graveyards, shouldn't we first ask ourselves if > these systems are really dead? Dear Vidyasankar, I greatly sympathize with your point. I would also add that a philosophy is not dead just because it has no living school supporting it. I think a view should be called dead only when it is no longer relevant: either it has been proven false or it is not addressing problems that interest anyone. > So, these schools may be dying, but let us not bury them alive. Rather we could let some fresh air into their sick-room. Yours, Ferenc From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Fri May 21 15:38:33 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 17:38:33 +0200 Subject: Does the Purusha will? Message-ID: <161227049153.23782.9443314631051068800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [in reply to Nanda Chandran] Dear Nanda, > Even when you say you're "thinking" about something, it's but a succession > of thoughts about a particular subject and not one single thought about the > subject. This is the root, where the Bauddha concept of momentariness > (ksAnikavAda), flowered from. I thought that when the tathAgata said "sabbaM dukkhaM, sabbaM aniccaM" (or "khaNikaM"), his premiss was the temporariness (or momentariness) of youth, health and life. The doctrine of anattA and, as a consequence, the momentariness of thought seem to be later refinements. >I don't think the linkage of "state" to thought, can stand critical >analysis. Unless, you state the moment of the thought itself is the state. I am (and have been for a time) *in the state of* thinking, i.e. entertaining the opinion, that you might be mistaken in this. - Clearly, a state does not necessarily mean *eternal* state; sometimes it can be so short that we can call it a momentary state. Generally I have a feeling that some of our discussion is mainly lexical in nature: focusing more on words than on the concepts underlying them. My general position was that salvific knowledge - at least as understood in the SK - seems to be propositional; and it seems to belong to the puruSa. Yours, Ferenc From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 22 00:58:48 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 17:58:48 -0700 Subject: Dr.Thompson' dating of the RV... Message-ID: <161227049171.23782.15280888121005499136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Vishal replies: >I am not competent enough to make a call on this issue. <<< If so, what particularly makes you think that you are competent enough to dismiss Professor Thompson's hypothesis (which is firmly based on the wide range of Rgvedic, as well as Avestan, texts) and even call it "absurd"? As for your own suggestions, how can you explain the fact that the civilization of Classical Greece in the first four or five centuries of its existence produced several times more texts than Vedic India in its whole history? (If we take into account only surviving texts, which is the only correct procedure). Should the Greeks too claim a period of several millenia for their several thousand titles or so? And what about China? >>> Shri Agarwalji, Namaskar. Greek texts are much more varied in contents than Vedic works - ritual priests' operation manuals usually. I understand that you do not support Rajaram who is of course opposed to Jan Gonda and George Thompson studying our holiest of the holy books. Reading Gonda and Thompson I do not feel they deserve the honor - "absurdity". Regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mahoney_richard at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 22 01:38:46 1999 From: mahoney_richard at HOTMAIL.COM (Richard Mahoney) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 18:38:46 -0700 Subject: Font Software for Windows Message-ID: <161227049175.23782.8647369913882536760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am in the process of finding software to: 1) transliterate Sanskrit from Devanagari to Roman, and 2) type and print Sanskrit in Devanagari. My PC is a 486 with 16M RAM running Windows 95 and MS Office Pro. Do list members have any advice? Richard Mahoney Student Department of Philosophy & Religious Studies University of Canterbury New Zealand ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From timlighthiser at YAHOO.COM Sat May 22 02:56:52 1999 From: timlighthiser at YAHOO.COM (Tim Lighthiser) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 19:56:52 -0700 Subject: Font Software for Windows Message-ID: <161227049183.23782.17272592394556910671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You may wish to ask Richard Lasseigne about this. He is at: --- Richard Mahoney wrote: > I am in the process of finding software to: > > 1) transliterate Sanskrit from Devanagari to Roman, > and > > 2) type and print Sanskrit in Devanagari. > > My PC is a 486 with 16M RAM running Windows 95 and > MS Office Pro. > > Do list members have any advice? > > > Richard Mahoney > Student > Department of Philosophy & Religious Studies > University of Canterbury > New Zealand > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at > http://www.hotmail.com > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Sat May 22 04:29:06 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 21:29:06 -0700 Subject: varna and jati In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049187.23782.883140476802548918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Varna (`colour') is `race' or `caste', meaning skin colour. > Jati is `professional guild'. I respectfully disagree. While 'varNa' does mean 'social caste', and literally also means color, it does *not* mean skin color, nor does it mean race. Or at least, it doesn't unequivocally mean so. Translating (or even footnoting) as such would be misleading. jAti means 'genus'. In the vernaculars in India, jAti invariably means 'caste' or 'community'. It most definitely does not mean 'professional guild' in the general sense. Mani From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat May 22 02:34:11 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 22:34:11 -0400 Subject: Scripts KannaDa/Telegu/SinhAla Message-ID: <161227049177.23782.4153610979886829689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Maheswaran Nair: Thank you very much for your kind remarks about my postings. I definately know of you. I have your book in my library and have read it with deep interest. Thanks for the other info vis-a-vis the MaLayALam script. Regards, B.N.Hebbar Adj Professor of Eastern Religions The George Washington University Washington DC (USA) From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat May 22 02:42:17 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 22:42:17 -0400 Subject: Living & Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049179.23782.5495053529451166635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A REPLY TO THE VIEWS OF MR. SUNDARESAN AND PROF. RUZSA Gentlemen: I continue to maintain (despite your esteemed views) that every system of Classical Indian thought, except Jainism and VedAnta are dead! Let me point out a few things. The NyAya and the Yoga are "alive" in what in the USA is referred to as "in a cannibalized form". Just before an old conked-out car is taken to the scarpyard, it is stripped of its still useful and servicable parts which are later fitted to cars needing spare parts. Similarly is the case with the donated organs of a dead person. Yes, in this sense, the NyAya and Yoga are "alive" but NOT in their old vintage form as full-fledged alternatives to the VedAnta. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the VedAnta in its various manifestations has taken over the Indian religio-philosophical scene. In fact, it is quoted in a VedAntic work itself where it is said that "as soon as the lion of VedAnta entered the forest of Indian Philosophy, the rest of them fled away like jackals". (I'll get you the citation later). All Yoga teachers today are mostly Advaitins, B.K.S. Iyengar and few others like him are excepted! Moreover, Hatha Yoga is NOT ALL of Yoga. Today, it has been clearly stripped of its SAnkhyan context. NyAya again is used by all 3 principal schools of VedAnta to the extent that it can be useful to them and nothing more! The philosophers of all three schools of VedAnta have rejected vintage NyAya. One need only go through the KhaNDanakhANDakhAdya of ShrIharSha (Advaita), the NyAyaparishuddhi of VedAnta Deshika (VishiShTAdvaita) and the TarkatANDava of VyAsatIrtha (Dvaita). In fact, there is a humorous story about the TarkatANDava. It is said that VyAsatIrtha wrote the NyAyAmRta against the Advaitins. He immediately received a "congrats" message from the NyAya-VaisheShika philosophers in Bengal. Thereafter, he wrote the TarkatANDava against the N-V system. This time the N-V philosophers wrote back: "NyAyAmRtArjita kIrtishca tANDavena vinAshitA" roughly meaning whatever fame you earnt amongst us for writing the NyAyAmRta you destroyed it by writing the TarkatANDava! For example, all three schools of VedAnta reject the 5-fold syllogism of the NyAya etc. Prof. Hiriyanna states that the NyAya has 3 phases to it. The first one as the old NyAya. The second as merged with the VaisheShika and the third as purely servicing the VedAnta (i.e. logic only, stripped of its metaphysics, theology etc.) (vide p.225 Outlines of IP, Motilal edition) Prof. Hiriyanna again implies that the only two systems of Indian thought that are still living in India. These are Jainism and VedAnta. (vide p. 17 Outlines) I have a bias toward Prof. Hiriyanna who was my maternal grandfather's "walking" friend in Mysore City in the 1930s. They used to go for long walks together. In fact when the "Outlines" was written devoid of a chapter on Dvaita VedAnta, my grandfather and Prof.H.N.Raghavendrachar (a MAdhva scholar who wrote a book called "Dvaita Philosophy and its place in the VedAnta") took him to task on this. He apologized and wrote the "Essentials of IP" some time later. It contains a section on Dvaita VedAnta! With regard to modernization of the dead systems like VaisheShika, SAnkhya etc., I agree with Prof. Ruzsa that it is high time we do so. Actually Prof. Ninian Smart pointed this out long ago when he said that "Indian philosophy need not Westernize but it certainly needs to modernize!" But then, one would have to modernize Jain metaphysics as well which is very similar to that of the VaisheShika. You will meet with some STIFF opposition you will see when you try to even suggest that! Any meddling with the teachings of the Jinas or any VedAntic systems, you will soon find out how sacred these are to their followers. With systems which are dead one can do whatever one want in terms of modernization. No emotions aroused, no sacred feathers ruffled. Not so with the living systems! This itself will prove as to what is living and what is dead! A CASE IN POINT: At a meeting of Madhvite laymen from different walks of life, a question came up. As per Dvaita VedAnta, Space (desha) and Time (KAla) are two distinct substances. These are substantiated through all 3 pramANas accept by the system. One of the laymen, a physicist by profession, said that in modern physics Space and Time are considered as one. So Space-Time. The other gentleman who was also a scientist but a deeply religious man stood up to the first man and said that we must not tamper with Shrimad AcArya's (Madhva's) sacred thought and must be left as is. The two almost over the course of verbal exchanges came to fist fights. You see what I mean. So, one can modernize the dead systems, nobody will bother. as for the living systems it would be an entirely different story. Finally to come back to my original point, NyAya and Yoga are "living" no more than a dead man's liver and kidney are living in some other human being who has received it! Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat May 22 02:53:01 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Fri, 21 May 99 22:53:01 -0400 Subject: VarAha Carama shloka Message-ID: <161227049181.23782.16312187955764663154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Varadarajan: Many thanks for your kind and prompt reply. Yes, I indeed know Mr. K.P.Kalale of San Diego, California. I will contact him for the book. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 22 07:06:47 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 00:06:47 -0700 Subject: Living & Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049191.23782.16073158722599063117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Balaji Hebbar wrote: >I continue to maintain (despite your esteemed views) that every >system of Classical Indian thought, except Jainism and VedAnta >are dead! Let me point out a few things. With all due respect, Prof. Hebbar, I think this reflects only the situation in southern Karnataka, where there are only Jains and Vedantins among classical thinkers. Your quotation of Prof. Hiriyanna adds to this impression of mine. Let's not forget Buddhism. Apart from traditional pockets here and there in various parts of India, we have many neo-Buddhists who are very interested in philosophical issues, and not just in political matters. And since the times of Hiriyanna, the Tibetans have come, as far down south as Mysore now. Perhaps they are still alien, but I see no real prospect of their returning to their homeland in the foreseeable future. As social interactions between Indians and Tibetans increase, philosophical discourse and religious debate will follow, and mahAyAna buddhism will have to be contended with as a religion and as a philosophy. And Buddhism will only have returned to its old homeland. ....... >parts. Similarly is the case with the donated organs of a >dead person. Yes, in this sense, the NyAya and Yoga are >"alive" but NOT in their old vintage form as full-fledged >alternatives to the VedAnta. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the >VedAnta in its various manifestations has taken over the Indian >religio-philosophical scene. Is it necessary for every classical darSana to be a religious alternative to the vedAnta(s)? Isn't it enough for a school like nyAya to concentrate on logic? And you have not even taken into account the Saiva siddhAnta and related schools. Even among classical nyAya-vaiSeshika authors, many of them were Saiva/pASupata by "religion" and naiyyAyika by "philosophy." kauNDinya and vyomaSiva come to mind. And as far as pUrva mImAMsA is concerned, even kumArila bhaTTa didn't think it was an alternative to vedAnta, as he ended his tantra-vArttika with a statement that the subject of the Atman is discussed only in the vedAnta darSana and not in jaiminI's SAstra. And among the vedAntins, Sankara kept the two separate, while others argued the two systems formed one larger whole, in one way or the other. In either case, mImAMsA continued, either separately, or otherwise. As late as appayya dIkshita, a full eight centuries after Sankara, and two or three after Madhva, there was a flourishing traditional scholarship in pUrva mImAMsA. Clearly, if we are to give a reason why mImAMsA has died or has become irrelevant today, there are other factors involved, and we cannot point simply to the rise of vedAnta(s). > All Yoga teachers today are mostly Advaitins, Not so long ago, Swami Saccidanandendra Sarasvati of Holenarsipur wrote that Sankaran advaita vedAnta had been hijacked largely by naiyyAyikas and yogins. Not that he was necessarily right, but many of those one assumes to be Advaitins are really Yogins. Earlier this century, Swami Hariharananda Aranya (note the Advaitin sounding Sannyasi suffix) translated the Yogabhashya into Bengali with annotations. This has since been translated into English and Hindi. There is hardly any influence of Advaitic metaphysics in his work, which is clearly aligned with the multiple purusha tradition aligned with sAMkhya. The Bihar School of Yoga in Monghyr continues to have some pundits of pAtanjala yoga, without Advaita influence. We can leave B. K. S. Iyengar safely out of this discussion, as he is to Yoga what Swamis Sivananda or Chinmayananda are to Advaita Vedanta. ....... >For example, all three schools of VedAnta reject the 5-fold >syllogism of the NyAya etc. Fine, but I don't see why this makes the 5-fold syllogism any less interesting a field of study. There are still traditional pundits who study the 5-fold syllogism and ponder over the finer points of samavAya and vyApti, not to mention the numerous comparative philosophers who are interested in these concepts. Just last year, I heard of two young vidyArthIs who were examined and given certificates for proficiency in nyAya studies at Sringeri. I'm sure various other maThas and pAThaSalas also patronize some nyAya specialists. >With regard to modernization of the dead systems like >VaisheShika, SAnkhya etc., I agree with Prof. Ruzsa that it is >high time we do so. Actually Prof. Ninian Smart pointed this >out long ago when he said that "Indian philosophy need not >Westernize but it certainly needs to modernize!" Really professor, a thing has to be alive in some form or the other, although old and decrepit, if we are to modernize it. A dead thing cannot be modernized in any sense of the term. It only be decently disposed of, before or after a post-mortem. It is either dead or it is not. nAsato vidyate bhAvaH, nAbhAvo vidyate sataH, no? >But then, one >would have to modernize Jain metaphysics as well which is very >similar to that of the VaisheShika. You will meet with some >STIFF opposition you will see when you try to even suggest >that! Any meddling with the teachings of the Jinas or any >VedAntic systems, you will soon find out how sacred these I do not see why modernizing of Jaina metaphysics should be of interest to anyone but a Jaina. Hopefully, somebody of sufficient authority among Jainas will do it, or perhaps not. Why should this be a precondition for the modernizing of other darSanas? What form should modernization take? A constructive engagement with science, as is being done in Western philosophy? But the example you give below of the Madhva layman scientist seems to imply that the metaphysics (or physics perhaps?) of the Dvaita Vedantins needs to be modernized too. We Advaitins have an advantage; we can see the latest scientific theory as yet another facet of mAyA, and either ignore it or co-opt it. :-))) And speaking from the scientist's perspective, it is a very interesting exercise to apply Sankara's and Anandagiri's criticisms of vaiSeshika theories to the scientific atomic theory. >to their followers. With systems which are dead one can do >whatever one want in terms of modernization. No emotions >aroused, no sacred feathers ruffled. Not so with the living >systems! This itself will prove as to what is living and what >is dead! To me, this means that what is living is going to die, especially if it is not interested in philosophical problems of immediate interest, or if it is so weighed down by tradition that it has a closed mind. And what one thinks to be dead will be reborn, if not tomorrow, some other day. After all, in India, nothing ever dies completely. But the faith of the layman in the guru among whose followers he happens to have been born hardly ensures the vitality of a darSana. And it is a moot point if the formulators of nyAya and vaiSeshika darSanas ever had the kind of following which the contemporary maThAdhipatis of the vedAnta schools have. My arguments are not based on an assumption that all is fine and healthy with the state of the classical darSanas. Rather, I'm saying let's not sign the death certificate while the patient is still breathing, even if only barely. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat May 22 04:51:59 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 00:51:59 -0400 Subject: Eating leftovers Message-ID: <161227049189.23782.15318405764073890582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In some of the legends of famous students, they eat or attempt to eat the leftovers after the teacher has eaten. What is the interpretation of this according to Sanskrit texts? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri May 21 22:01:31 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 02:01:31 +0400 Subject: Dr.Thompson' dating of the RV... Message-ID: <161227049168.23782.3323348061305676809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Fri May 21 01:47:41 MSD 1999 >Sri Iyer wrote: >>What is your taking as Rigveda's date... >Vishal replies: >I am not competent enough to make a call on this issue. If so, what particularly makes you think that you are competent enough to dismiss Professor Thompson's hypothesis (which is firmly based on the wide range of Rgvedic, as well as Avestan, texts) and even call it "absurd"? As for your own suggestions, how can you explain the fact that the civilization of Classical Greece in the first four or five centuries of its existence produced several times more texts than Vedic India in its whole history? (If we take into account only surviving texts, which is the only correct procedure). Should the Greeks too claim a period of several millenia for their several thousand titles or so? And what about China? Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov ______________________________________________________ From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 22 09:28:18 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 02:28:18 -0700 Subject: Living and Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049193.23782.2197392666984195120.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indeed history seems to support the claim that after the advent of VedAnta, the rest of the philosophical systems in their formal forms did disappear. Again as Vidya pointed out, they do survive in some form of VedAnta or the other. But then wasn't there was a revival of SAmkhya by VijnAna Bhikshu, much later than the great AchAryas of VedAnta? Wonder why that never took off? Is it that, the different schools of VedAnta themselves, have all the variety to offer both in terms of religion and philosophy? And also enjoy greater support of the shruti. And when one thinks of it, VedAnta has more to offer to the common man as a religion, than any of the other schools. What I mean is - atoms, prAkriti, gunAs etc is hardly of interest to the common man. It may be of philosophical interest, but can hardly provide an inspiring religion. Taking it further, how many smArthas really know Advaitam? Even if they know of it, how many would care to understand it in its essence? The same would apply to other schools of VedAnta too. Most of the followers are for most part only into bhakti, with only a very basic idea of the underlying philosophy. And it's enough to satisfy the religious needs of most. Philosophy is only for scholars. And in all probability, the ancient schools existed only amongst such circles (predominently the brAhmanic circle), with no popular following from the common people. Any such following of a guru, probably had more to do with his religious personality, than his philosophy. And after the invasions etc when survival had replaced philosophy in priority, only those philosophies truly connected with the religion of the land, survived - VedAnta. Ofcourse, there're a lot of probables - I'm just speculating :-) So how do we revive the schools? Probably hit the nyAya-vaishesika or the sAmkhya-yoga manuals for a few years - enhance it with modern scientific knowledge - then turn up at a VedAnta matham and challenge the residing AchArya to a debate :-) Or probably go to Udupi for the occasion which Prof Hebbar mentioned and debate. Might stir up a bit of an interest. Maybe it's the culture to debate which has to be encouraged. Ofcourse, even in Indian TV, we can see the natural inclination of the people towards it - in the patti mandrams or in the aap ki adAlat etc Plus if the younger generations are also exposed to this, one can never say what one might come up with. The spiritual would go towards the MImAmsA - the scientific towards nyAya-vaishesika - and the practical - SAmkhya-Yoga! When you're waiting for the system to come up at 2:30 in the morning, so you can finish your work and go home - wierder thoughts arise! _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 22 11:11:42 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 04:11:42 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049209.23782.15765379319931791662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Interestingly, Tamil has *no* words for varNa and jAti; Consider this: while Tamil has exact equivalents for different and difficult concepts in Sanskrit, 'varNa' and 'jAti' are later borrowings from Sanskrit. Classical Tamil has no idea of 'varNa' at all; Possibly Pallavans introduce the idea. Even after the 'varNa' introduction, it was never given too much weightage. Among the spoken Indian languages, Tamil literature, in its 2300 year history, has majority of authors coming from nonbrahmin castes; This I hear is a *major* contrast with other languages, for example Telugu. Possibly because of this, (eg.,) Telugu literature will emphasize the varNa scheme more than Tamil. For the varNa scheming, the student can consult Brian K. Smith, Classifying the Universe. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 22 11:32:27 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 04:32:27 -0700 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049215.23782.8427601489805611020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Maheswaran Nair, Welcome to Indology list. I read in Indology some time ago that Nambudiris hail from Mahrashtra. Prof. Madhav Deshpande wrote then; Both Konganastha Brahmins and Nambudiris have the same kuladeyvam temple - somewhere in Konkan. (I need to check the archives for correct quotes). Did Nambudiris arrive in Kerala from Maharashtra region? When? 5th century? Thanks for your answer, N. Ganesan, PhD Lead Engineer, Loads and Dynamics division, Johnson Space Center, NASA _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From shrao at IA.NET Sat May 22 10:28:18 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 05:28:18 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049199.23782.18038015860571564209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 20 May 1999, Michael Witzel wrote: > >> Shrisha Rao wrote: > > >>I still must point out that "Western scholarship" of > >> Indic studies is often as guilty of the same sins, ... > >> For instance, there are elaborate rules of philology, > >> linguistics, etc., in regard to the Vedas which have been around for ages > >> and are part of the classical Vedic tradition, which are conveniently > >> ignored by people propounding "Western scholarship" (which of course > >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >> includes many Indians as well) of the Vedas, and said people may also be > >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >> rightly accused of not knowing what they're talking about . > >> >>> > Which "elaborate rules of philology, linguistics, etc., in regard to the > Vedas" > are you referring to ?? > > Otherwise the above statement is empty ... All the elaborate output of the nirukta-s, the pUrva-mImAMsA sUtra-s, etc., which is conveniently ignored by "Western" scholarship. Why do you think the classical period of study of the Vedas is 12 years? Also at `itihAsapurANAbhyAM veda samupabR^iMhayet', etc. The argument that the itihAsa, etc., came later is not convincing because there are references to them in the Vedas themselves (in the Yajur Veda). The grammar of Panini, etc., is an aspect of the classical study of the Vedas, not a later canonization of grammar for post-Vedic works as assumed (a concept stated by Patanjali, and accepted by Sayana also in his comm. on the RV -- `na vA antareNa vyAkaraNaM kR^itastaddhitA vA shakyA vij~nAtuM, tasmAdadhyeyaM vyAkaraNam.h'), yet there are fruitless discussions on what some particular "epithet" in the Rg Veda means, to the exclusion of these ideas. I have yet to come across any "Western" scholar who understands the notion of apaurushheyatva (not to require that they *accept* it, you understand, but just to correctly grasp what the notion is), although the wordage expended in its favor from the pUrva-mImAMsaka-s onwards is not small, and several classical scholars have pointed out that it originates in the RV itself. It usually is dismissed in a few lines which misstate the concept, and no attempt is made to clarify its origin or significance. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies From shrao at IA.NET Sat May 22 10:44:41 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 05:44:41 -0500 Subject: Dr.Thompson' dating of the RV... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049204.23782.422517874756224983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 22 May 1999, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > >From yavass Fri May 21 01:47:41 MSD 1999 > > > >Sri Iyer wrote: > >>What is your taking as Rigveda's date... > > >Vishal replies: > >I am not competent enough to make a call on this issue. > > If so, what particularly makes you think that you are competent enough > to dismiss Professor Thompson's hypothesis (which is firmly based on the > wide range of Rgvedic, as well as Avestan, texts) and even call it "absurd"? Such vainglorious ad hominem does no justice to you or to the position you are trying to support. It is perfectly reasonable to find that someone else's conclusion on a certain topic is not in order, even if one has not oneself reached a final conclusion yet. It certainly is a valid question to ask as to how the RV could have been composed in 1000 BC, and then the whole mantra corpus of the various shAkhA-s of the RV itself, and then the other Vedas and their myriad rescensions, and then the brAhmaNa-s, and then the nirukta, the mImAMsA and the kalpasUtra-s and the like, could all have settled in, before Panini, who certainly cannot be placed later than 500 BC (and we must note that Panini is not even the first of his kind, as noted by Mr. Agrawal). Mr. Thompson's efforts have, lamentably, not accounted for these points Mr. Agrawal noted, and merely appealing to the former's competence (and berating the latter for lack thereof) is not a cogent response. > As for your own suggestions, how can you explain the fact that the > civilization of Classical Greece in the first four or five centuries of its > existence produced several times more texts than Vedic India in its > whole history? (If we take into account only surviving texts, which is the > only correct procedure). Should the Greeks too claim a period of several > millenia for their several thousand titles or so? And what about China? Let's take things from the top. How do you know that classical Greece produced greater textual output? Where are the comparisons made, and what are the quantities? No handwaving please. Secondly, what makes you think that it is only correct to consider surviving texts? Is there a rule of some kind that equal proportions of texts will have survived to the present day from ancient civilizations of like dates? Lastly, to pre-suppose the notion that "Vedic India" produced the texts whose dates are under dispute, is assuming the consequence, after a fashion -- lacking any agreement about the dates of "Vedic India," or even its nature and existence, it becomes impossible to invoke it as a tool in one's argument. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Yaroslav Vassilkov From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 22 12:51:39 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 05:51:39 -0700 Subject: Living and Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049219.23782.11605513493315907454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Maybe it's the culture to debate which has to be encouraged. Make that *informed* debate. Many of us debate purely for the sake of being contrary. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 22 13:08:24 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 06:08:24 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049221.23782.7079065400125850355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is an interesting thread, Color of Skin in May 1997 in INDOLOGY archives; I wrote then that Classical Tamil(s) praised 'brown' color (Any ethnic Indian's color) in contrast to Sanskrit 'white'; Possibly our bright folks like Chandra, Jean-Luc, Palaniappan, Schalk, Veluppillai, Vidyasankar, Rama, Manivannan, Selva can add to/contest them. Regards, N. Ganesan ----------------------------------------------------- 5/16/97 Color of Skin ************** With Krishna getting lighter as years pass by, it is interesting that old Tamil literature praises only dark brown color. Not the fair complexion. Girls' hues are said to be of sprouting mango leaves - maanthaLir niRam. The color that repeatedly comes in ancient Tamil sangam works is "maal/maamai/maa". Vishnu's name in Tamil Tirumaal is from this "maal". This word has survived to this day. "poNNu maaniRamaa iruppaa" (The bride is brown in color.) Only brown complexion is praised, so much so that fair color is not desired! When the heroine suffers due to separation from hero: 1) She becomes weak & sallow. She complains "The beauty of my darkness is disappearing. Sallowness is spreading all over my body to my disgust". - AinguRunuuRu 35 2) "Due to paleness arising out of separation, she turns into the color of conch shell, losing all elegence". - AinguRunuuRu 470 3) The changing complexion of the heroine's body is compared to a dark plant sprouting white flowers. - Narrinai 302 Black/brown color was not only good for women. For Kings too! "karungkai oLvaaL perumpeyar vazhuti" The Pandya King's praise is laden in adjectives. "Pandyan with black hands, shining sword and great fame". There is no hint of "lowness" for being dark. In 12th century mUvar ulaa by OTTakkuuttar, Vikrama Chola (a descendent of Rajarajan I who built Tanjore temple) is eulogized as "Dark Cloud". In the medieval commentary to muuvar ulaa, Krishna and Chola Kings are compared to Black Cloud (Kanrung koNDal) for two reasons - for their patronage and also for color. An intended pun. The Mahabharata's black/white/in-between etc., are interesting. These mixings in Ancient India have been dealt by Prof. Madhav Deshpande in many of his writings: a) Aryan and NonAryan in India, U. Michigan, 1979 b) Sociolinguistic attitudes in India, 1979 c) Sanskrit and Prakrit: Sociolinguistic issues, Delhi, 1993 d) Aryans, Non-Aryans and Brahmanas: Processes of Indigenization, J. of IE studies, 1993 etc., In tamil, there is a proverb: "Don't believe a white paraiyan or a dark brahmin". Subtle meaning is that these colors are unusual/suspicious in these castes. Accusations of racial impurity. Many of the existing priestly clans must have learnt sanskrit and claimed brahminhood over the years. When Ramanujar created the caste of Ayyangars, many nonbrahmins entered into that scheme. Many have Pillai as their surnames. Only from 14th century or so, we hear the name "Ayyangar" (Mainly from Pillaipperumal Aiyangar's time onwards, the famous author of ashta prabandhams) . Adhisaiva Sivacharyar priests in tamil nadu is another case in point. They are ancient Tamils, preservers of the Agama tradition. There is a fifth century Tirumantiram that says "If brahmins do archana at Siva temples, King will die, famine will result, Diseases will multiply". Old commentaries say this Tirumantiram specifically stipulates that only Adhisaivas should perform pujas at Siva temples, not just any brahmin. Helene Brunner discusses the origins of the Adisaiva brahmin lineages and speculates that they may represent an indigenous non-brahmin priestly group who successfully claimed brahmin status. Her article, in French, is "Les categories sociales vediques dans le Sivaisme du sud," Journal asiatique 252 (1964): 452-72. Richard Davis discussed the Adisaivas of Tamilnad in an article, Aghorasiva's Background, Journal of Oriental Research (Dr. S. S. Janaki Felicitation Volume) 56-62 (1992):367-78. [...] _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From jpstephen at HOME.COM Sat May 22 10:27:31 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 06:27:31 -0400 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049201.23782.9909184712800273166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: Samar Abbas To: Sent: 21 May, 1999 11:43 PM Subject: Re: varna and jati > The term Dalit now > occurs in some academic literature in political science. Indologists would > still use other terms (like `Dravidian', `Kolarian', `Mundari') in > preference to Dalit (since the term Dalit did not exist in classical > India). Would not Dravidian mean the Dravidian people as a whole and not just the Dalits? Sujatha From shrao at IA.NET Sat May 22 11:30:52 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 06:30:52 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227049213.23782.15863091487834381585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On May 5, 1999, Robert Zydenbos wrote: >> Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:33:58 -0500 >> From: Shrisha Rao > >> On Tue, 4 May 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >> >> > That is an important prerequisite for their scholarship, and they >> > are proud of it. They have no faith in Western scholarship such as >> > philology, linguistics etc, and they prefer to construct their own >> > version of scholarship. >> >> [...] >> >> Then, too, there certainly is more than a slight tendency among >> proponents of "Western scholarship" to rely excessively on each >> other's secondary sources and form incestuous intellectual cliques >> with little outside input. It used to be said that in the days of the >> British Raj, Western writers who pictured India would primarily deal >> with the few Europeans there, and the "natives" would rarely figure, >> except perhaps as servants, villains, or the occasional Maharaja. The >> very same trend is certainly present to a large degree in recent >> Indological scholarship (such as with the late Jan Gonda, who had >> never been to India, but was perfectly content to theorize about it >> extensively from his armchair). > >I do not know how many writings of Gonda you have read, The ones I have some familiarity with are `Epithets in the Rgveda', `Change and Continuity in Indian Religion', and `Aspects of Early Visnuism'. >but he was precisely one of those researchers who did not deal with sundry >Englishmen and other Europeans, nor maharajas and 'native villains'. He >went straight to the Vedas and all the other texts he worked on. He >also had a firm grounding in Greek, Latin and Avestan, which made him >well equipped to make pronouncements on, e.g., 'Aryan' matters. However, to assume that a grounding in Greek, Latin and Avestan is much or all of what it takes to make pronouncements re, e.g., the Rg Veda, is more than we can agree upon, at least at this point. Even if Gonda "went straight to the Vedas," he did not "go" to any classical scholar of the Vedas and get trained, and because he had not studied them and their ancillaries himself, was obliged to draw upon many writings of other "Western" scholars, who also, it turns out, did not have have a grounding in classical Vedic studies. Thus my observation that the setting up of a faux "version of scholarship," as originally observed of Frawley, et al., by another writer, was also a valid accusation in re Gonda, et al. >[As an aside: I wonder whether those notorious proponents of the >'Indic paradigms of knowledge and scholarship', whose names keep >popping up in messages on this list (and are they not an 'incestuous >intellectual clique'?), are anywhere nearly as qualified as Gonda was. They certainly are such a clique, and they're probably not at all qualified, we can agree. However, I hold no brief for them, as I previously stated, so let's stick to Gonda, et al. for the moment. Even if there are other ignoramuses, it does us no good to simply point to their warts and ignore our own. >His qualifications may not be an absolute guarantee against errors --for >what could be an absolute one?--, but they are very significant.] Certainly. >As for the armchair: when one works on philological material from the >farthest edge of history, or even from the middle ages, why not sit >comfortably? :-) Does it matter whether the armchair is in Utrecht, >Poona, or anywhere else? I am afraid that I do not understand this >criticism of Gonda. Well, if Gonda had been merely content to study the RV from the perspective of IE studies or such, and leave aside all social aspects arising out of it, or presumed in it, etc., the location of his "armchair" would perhaps not be as critical, although I would not call it insignificant. It is common knowledge in academia that one needs to go through a period of apprenticeship and interaction with senior scholars in order to gain scholarly maturity, and I doubt there was a community of RV scholars located in the vicinity of Gonda's armchair in Utrecht. However, even ignoring this point, Gonda's writings in "Change and Continuity of Indian Religion" are certainly concerned with contemporary Indian society, and I do not accept that Gonda's having no first-hand feel for his subject would be a negligible circumstance. Regards, Shrisha Rao >RZ > >> Shrisha Rao From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Sat May 22 01:31:30 1999 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 07:01:30 +0530 Subject: Scripts KannaDa/Telegu/SinhAla Message-ID: <161227049173.23782.16258119459232677650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri Balaji Hebbar, Thank you for your interesing,rich and, varied presentations.Infact all the Indian scripts have developed from BrAhmi which is an example for the all-pervasive Aryan influence. As for Malayalam my mother-tongue the influence was so fatal that we threw away our alphabet and embraced the Sanskrit alphabet. While Tamil does everything with its double vargas(ka-Na,Ca-Na,Ta-Na,ta-na,pa-ma) we in Malayalam have all the twentyfive. Recently I found out a manuscript of a work by ChattampiSwamikal who was one of the leaders of the renaissance of Kerala,named ADBHASA and edited and published it. The book is in Malayalam.It tries to establish that MULADRAVIDAM was the ADIBHASA.It discards the theory that Sanskrit is the ADIBHASA. I have given the Brahmi,Kharoshti and all other Indian scripts in another of my recent book MANUSCRIPTOLOGY. My research topic for Ph.D. was the study of Advaitasiddhi of Madhusudana Saraswati who wrote it in retort to Vyasatirtha's Nyayamrta. I have devoted a chapter for the controversy between the Dvaitins and Advaitins. More later. As you may know I am a new-comer in the Indology list. Thank you. Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair Dept. of Sanskrit University of Kerala. ---------- > From: Balaji Hebbar > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Scripts KannaDa/Telegu/SinhAla > Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 9:45 PM > > Dear Sri Madhuresan: > > Many thanks for the info. Why are Tamil and MaLayAlam scripts > different from these? or are they not? Perhaps they belong to > different sub-group? Kindly let me know. Also, TuLu once had > its own script which resembled the MaLayALam script. Today, it > is just a spoken language and we write to each other in > KannaDa only. Thanks. > > Regards, > B.N.Hebbar From jpstephen at HOME.COM Sat May 22 11:15:06 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 07:15:06 -0400 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049211.23782.3971752220154085188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Ganesan, What kind of education system was there in ancient Tamilnadu? Was it open to everyone? Regards, Sujatha From ramakris at EROLS.COM Sat May 22 11:54:28 1999 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 07:54:28 -0400 Subject: DharmasthaLa Message-ID: <161227049217.23782.10897089251989381466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Balaji Hebbar wrote: >conducting worship to Shiva. In fact, the god is given a due >place in the Madhvite hierarchy of gods (devatAtAratamya) as >enunciated in TaittirIyopaniShad II:8. However no ashes are >distributed. (that would be an acceptance of the "jaganmithyA" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ >deal). Instead as in all West Coast temples, sandalwood paste >is given out. (pRthivi gandhavatI = jagat satya). In fact, even Surely you jest! Firstly, not all smArtas who owe allegiance to sha.nkara wear ashes. There is a decent percentage which wears a U shaped mark with sandalwood paste. In Tamil Nadu there are even smArtas who were a SrivaishNava style mark, although rather rare. The people from my mothers side wear tengaLai (otherwise known as dakshiNakalaaaaa ;-)) style mark, but once a week only. The rest of the days they wear ashes. I have heard that there are a handful who wear Srivaishnava style marks exclusively. And ashes are not restricted to just advaitins. The dualist shaiva traditions also wear that. Not only that, the naiyAyikas are described as wearing ashes and other shaivite marks in a Jain compendium (Ref. Dasgupta). I fail to see why ashes => "jaganmithyA deal". That is only one interpretation. I am interested in knowing what the Madhvaite praxis is in doing the ritual samidAdhAnam. Do they not apply ashes mixed with water along with the mAnastoke mantra? Surely, you can't get sandalwood paste from burnt twigs? :->. Rama From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sat May 22 03:43:39 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 09:13:39 +0530 Subject: varna and jati In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049184.23782.5593518202214735477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 21 May 1999, Richard Barz wrote: > A student who is writing a thesis in political science in international > relations would like to translate the terms jati and varna into English. Varna (`colour') is `race' or `caste', meaning skin colour. Jati is `professional guild'. These would be the best translations. 1. `Dalit' properly refers to Scheduled Castes, not ST's. ST's are referred to as `Adivasis'. Though, sometimes, both SC and ST are combined under Dalit. As a name it is of recent origin. 2. The term `Untouchable' is also used. Older terms would be `Harijana' (coined in the 15th century by a Gujarati poet and later adopted by Mahatma Gandhi), `avaran' (`casteless or outcaste'). The term Dalit now occurs in some academic literature in political science. Indologists would still use other terms (like `Dravidian', `Kolarian', `Mundari') in preference to Dalit (since the term Dalit did not exist in classical India). So, usage of `Dalit' is OK in political science, but not encouraged in Indology. Samar From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat May 22 09:44:15 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 11:44:15 +0200 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049194.23782.2651011530484731117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I respectfully disagree. While 'varNa' does mean 'social caste', > and literally also means color, it does *not* mean skin color, > nor does it mean race. Or at least, it doesn't unequivocally mean > so. Translating (or even footnoting) as such would be misleading. >?From what I have seen on varNa, I think that the most correct translation into English would be "heraldic color". It is not race or skin color related, and there is a similar use of color Western Indo-European languages. French-readers may consult Bernard Sergent on the subject of symbolic colors, see p. 435f of Les Indo-Europeens. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sat May 22 08:53:43 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 12:53:43 +0400 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049197.23782.14668705500139504873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Varna (`colour') is `race' or `caste', meaning skin colour. >> Jati is `professional guild'. >I respectfully disagree. While 'varNa' does mean 'social caste', >and literally also means color, it does *not* mean skin color, >nor does it mean race. Or at least, it doesn't unequivocally mean >so. Translating (or even footnoting) as such would be misleading. I agree with Mr.Varadarajan. 'VarNa' never meant 'skin colour' or 'race' - such interpretation seems to be a survival of XIX century racist or "colonial" ideas. "VarNa' is a 'social class' or 'estate' and its link with 'varNa' - 'colour' is very special: not the 'skin colour' was meant, but rather the symbolic hierarchy of colours, as they were connected with occupations and psychological characteristics of respective social groups. Priesthood - the varNa of Brahmans - was associated with the white colour which symbolized ritual purity, holiness; red colour - associated with the KSatriyas - is psychologically linked with anger and blood I can not be sure about the meaning of the Vaizyas' yellow varNa (colour of the field?), but the black colour as marking ZUdras is perfectly clear: it is the colour of dirty and hard work, ritual pollution, spiritual 'darkness'. These 'colour characteristics' of the social strata are probably universal, or at least common for the peoples speaking Indo-European languages (Iranians and Celts give us the closest parallels). Later this hierarchy of 'social colours' was correlated by the Indian thinkers with the *guNa* system (brAhmana - white - sattva; kSatriya - red - rajas; vaizya - yellow - mixture of the two; zUdra - black - tamas). By the way, in the old, traditional Russia the nobility was designated by the metaphoric expression "white bone", and the peasantry - as 'black bone', with no racial shades of meaning, of course, both expressions being motivated by the notions of 'clean - unclean' and psychological characteristics. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov From roheko at MERKUR.NET Sat May 22 11:09:45 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 13:09:45 +0200 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049206.23782.8403135248824086705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the term jAti I came across the following TRSTubh stanza in the KuNAlAvadAna from the DivyAvadAna (v.l. = KalpanAmaNDItikA of KumAralAta, probably the early source for the DivyAvadAna): jAtiM bhavAn pazyati zAkya-bhikSuSv- antar-gatAMs-teSu guNAn-na ceti (v.l. na vetti : na veti) / ato bhavAn jAtimad-AvalepAd- AtmAnam-anyAMz-ca hinasti mohAt //3// AvAha-kAle'tha vivAha-kAle jAteH parIkSA na tu dharma-kAle / dharma-kriyAyA hi guNA nimittA guNAz(v.l. guNaiz)-ca jAtiM na vicArayanti //4// ...Not in regards to the guNa-related Dharma it is necessary to consider the jAti, but in case of any marriage the jAti has to be taken into consideration. roheko Richard Barz wrote: > A student who is writing a thesis in political science in international > relations would like to translate the terms jati and varna into English. > She would like to know the currently accepted academic translations for > these terms. > > She would also like to know if there is any academic precedent for > referring to scheduled tribes as 'dalit'. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Richard Barz > ANU > Canberra > richard.barz at anu.edu.au From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat May 22 17:11:12 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 13:11:12 -0400 Subject: Eating leftovers Message-ID: <161227049224.23782.6641668938260478019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Hoogcarspel In a message dated 5/22/99 11:24:19 AM Central Daylight Time, jehms at KABELFOON.NL writes: > There's an article of Charles Malamoud about the concept of remainder in WZKS > XVI 1972 > I do not know what WZKS stands for. Is that a journal or conference proceedings? I am interested in the traditional interpretations of the episodes such as those in the lives of of Ramanuja and Umapati zivAacharya where they eat/attempt to eat the leftovers of non-brahmin teachers. If the article addresses the relationship between a teacher and his disciple, I would like information about how to get that. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat May 22 20:15:04 1999 From: clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Carlos Lopez) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 16:15:04 -0400 Subject: Eating leftovers In-Reply-To: <40925bee.24783f30@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227049226.23782.11480160038343733272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The issue of how to deal with the leftovers (ucchiSTa, ZeSa) is central to one of the key myths in Vedic literature, namely the story of the birth of the Adityas from Aditi due to her eating of hte ucchiSTa (of the SAdhyas in one version). See MS 1.6.12, KS 11.6, TS 6.5.6 and ZB 3.1.3.3.4 for parallel versions. The myth of course, among other interesting things, 'defines' social relations - in that case between husband and wife. The same applies to the student-teacher relation, see for example ApDhS 1.3.31 says that the student must collect alms (=food) and then ofer them to the teacher, only after he offers them can the student eat the ucchiSTa of his teacher's meal (1.4.1). If the teacher is not around, a substitute must be found. Malamoud's article can be found in his Cooking the World: Ritual and Thought in ancient India. Delhi: Oxford University press, 1996....its a translationof the original Cuir le monde: Rite et Pensee dans l'Inde acienne ( 1989). Hope this helps Carlos Lopez Dept. of Sanskrit Harvard University > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of > Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 1999 1:11 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Eating leftovers > > > Dear Dr. Hoogcarspel > > In a message dated 5/22/99 11:24:19 AM Central Daylight Time, > jehms at KABELFOON.NL writes: > > > There's an article of Charles Malamoud about the concept of > remainder in > WZKS > > XVI 1972 > > > > I do not know what WZKS stands for. Is that a journal or conference > proceedings? I am interested in the traditional interpretations of the > episodes such as those in the lives of of Ramanuja and > Umapati zivAacharya > where they eat/attempt to eat the leftovers of non-brahmin teachers. > > If the article addresses the relationship between a teacher > and his disciple, > I would like information about how to get that. Thanks in advance. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan > From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Sun May 23 01:14:53 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 18:14:53 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049230.23782.14435546264335847110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Stephens wrote: > Dear Dr. Ganesan, > > What kind of education system was there in ancient Tamilnadu? Was it > open to > everyone? > > Regards, > Sujatha It was not only caste-blind but gender blind too. And blind to handicaps also. there were a sizeable proportion of female poets who were recognized by the peers and rewarded handsomley by the royalty. If you look at the list of the names of poets of the classical era, you find that their epithets contain their professions such as: veNNiyak kuyattiyAr (kuyatti = female potter); maurttuvan2 mOci kIran2 (medical doctor) kaDuvan2 iLa eyin2nan (eyin2 = hunter, like vAlmiki) kazArk kIran2 eyRRiyAr (huntress: eyiRRi - female hunter) kAkkai pAdin2i nacceLlaiyAr (female poet) thangkAl pon2 kollan2 (kollan2 = gold smith) kUla vAnikan2 cIttalaic cAttan2 (kUlam = grains; vANikan2 = merchant) ceyti vaLLuvan2 perum cAttan2 (ceyti = news; vaLLuvan2 = proclaimer who employs the drums (paRai) often considered low caste; especially these days we have untouchables called paRaiyar = drummers) and a disproportionate number of poets were farmers which the Aryan or vedic brahminism considered shUdras! The poets had epithets of kizAr (= land owner or farmer) who would address the kings directly in case of problems with taxation etc. without intermediaries. aricil kizAr, kOvUr kizAr etc. kaNiyan2 pUngkunRan2 (kaNiyan2 = mathematician, astrologer etc) kanakkAyan2ar (professional teacher, conducts a large school) umaTTUr mutukUttan2Ar (kUttan2 = dancer) pon2vaNikan2 makan2 nappUtattan2 (pon2 vaNikan2 = gold merchant) kAval peNDu (nanny) maturai ezuttALan2 cEntam pUtan2 (ezuttAlan2 = government archiver, document writer) kIran2 (bangle makers) The poetess mentioned above kAkkaipADin2i nacceLLaiyAr was awarded gold in her body weight for jewels and 100,000 gold coins for general purposes by a chEran king for her poetry! Chandra _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Sat May 22 16:25:41 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 18:25:41 +0200 Subject: Eating leftovers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049222.23782.13432919089898135792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op zaterdag, 22-mei-99 schreef Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan: SP| In some of the legends of famous students, they eat or attempt to eat the SP| leftovers after the teacher has eaten. What is the interpretation of this SP| according to Sanskrit texts? Thanks in advance. There's an article of Charles Malamoud about the concept of remainder in WZKS XVI 1972 Regards -- erik hoogcarspel *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sun May 23 01:36:59 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 21:36:59 -0400 Subject: DharmasthaLa Message-ID: <161227049232.23782.16408364364772729334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Balasubramaniam: Yes, I am aware of the practice among certain Tamil SmArtas who wear "gopIcandana" in the day time and "bhasma" in the evenings. I had a good friend PaNDitaratna Candramouli Iyer who did this. In TuLunAD also, a small section of TuLu brahmins who still follow the SmArta sampradAya do the same. I am not surprised at all because Shankara included the ShaNmatas (Shaivas, ShAktas, BhAgavatas, GANapatyas, KaumAreyas and Sauras) within the aegis of his SmArta sampradAya. TyAgarAja, the famous 17th century Carnatic music composer was a Telegu SmArta of the BhAgavata sampradAya and he wore gopicandana. However, I do not find such a practice among the KannaDiga smArtas of the Deccan hinterland. With regard to your other question the MAdhva praxis of the samidhAdhAnam, I will find out for you. Thanks for your comments. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Sat May 22 21:48:52 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Sat, 22 May 99 23:48:52 +0200 Subject: Living & Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049229.23782.13146306436704222055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Hebbar, My point was essentially aesthetic in nature - I feel that calling a philosophy dead does not sound very encouraging. Something like outdated, useless, rotten, stinking ... Of course no sane person would think of changing some people's system of beliefs or even practices above their heads. (But some insights, understanding and interpretation might be respectfully offered.) If some of the darzanas are more or less 'dead' as schools, but alive as sources of possible inspiration - why not use a milder term, say 'dormant' or 'historical' or whatever. -----Part of the Original Message----- >With regard to modernization of the dead systems like >VaisheShika, SAnkhya etc., I agree with Prof. Ruzsa that it is >high time we do so. Actually Prof. Ninian Smart pointed this >out long ago when he said that "Indian philosophy need not >Westernize but it certainly needs to modernize!" But then, one >would have to modernize Jain metaphysics as well which is very >similar to that of the VaisheShika. You will meet with some >STIFF opposition you will see when you try to even suggest >that! Any meddling with the teachings of the Jinas or any >VedAntic systems, you will soon find out how sacred these are >to their followers. With systems which are dead one can do >whatever one want in terms of modernization. No emotions >aroused, no sacred feathers ruffled. Not so with the living >systems! This itself will prove as to what is living and what >is dead! From jpstephen at HOME.COM Sun May 23 10:49:57 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 06:49:57 -0400 Subject: Racial Origin of Caste (Re: varna and jati) Message-ID: <161227049238.23782.4567628492451023149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would suggest an experiment for those that strongly believe in the Aryan/Dravidian divide in India: Take every member from 4 or 5 generations of any one family from either the so called "Aryan" or the so called "Dravidian" groups in India and line them up (I do not mean literally, could be through photographs) and try to put them in the Aryan or Dravidian pile based on physiology or genetics. You would be surprised at the number of people that cross the line of demarcation. Sujatha ----- Original Message ----- From: Samar Abbas To: Sent: 22 May, 1999 10:40 PM Subject: Racial Origin of Caste (Re: varna and jati) > > Genetics has recently proven that the caste system of India is racial in > origin, with different castes representing different races : From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sun May 23 02:40:35 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 08:10:35 +0530 Subject: Racial Origin of Caste (Re: varna and jati) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049234.23782.10510790252321984856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 22 May 1999, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > 'VarNa' never meant 'skin colour' or 'race' - such interpretation seems > to be a survival of XIX century racist or "colonial" ideas. Genetics has recently proven that the caste system of India is racial in origin, with different castes representing different races : - M. Bamshad et al, "mtDNA Variation in Caste Populations" Human Biology vol. 68 (1996) p.1 - ` p53 polymorphisms and haplotypes show distinct differences between major ethnic groups', A. Sjalander et al, Human Heredity (GE9) ( 1996 Jan-Feb ) 46 (1): 41-8. Both papers show that the Sudroids are of African (and not Caucasoid) stock, explaining the `black' colour associated with them in Vedic texts. IndoPedia has a good page on this - `The Sudroid or Indian Negro Race' - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1335/Anthro/sud_afr.html Prof. Clyde A. Winters has given linguistic evidences of Indo-African languages at (and has deciphered the Harappan script based on African models): - http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/dra2.htm (ekwesi) - http://homepages.luc.edu/~cwinter/wrharap.htm The `yellow' colour of Vaisyas may be due to darkening of Aryan skin, or due to Mongoloid (`Naga') admixture; other surveys show considerable Mongoloid racial admixture, esp. in East India. Some more entirely political links, not very scholarly, but shows that Sudras (Dravidians, Dalits and Adivasis) are becoming more concious of their Black Heritage. Please do not visit if offended by political `Indology' : `Africoid Populations In India', Runoko Rashidi - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/8192/india.html (Has a photo of a Dravidian girl. Anyone claim she is Aryan ?) `The African Presence in India' by Runoko Rashidi - http://saxakali.com/Saxakali-Publications/runoko19.htm - http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/india.html - http://pan.afrikan.net/history.notes/home.html (Rashidi recently visited India, and gave several speeches of solidarity with the Dalit Panthers, a movement modelled on the Black Panthers) `Revival Movement for Dravidian Religion', Dr. M. Deivanayagam & Dr. D. Devakala - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1412/index.html (some nonsense, some sense) `Dalit : The Black Untouchables of India', V.T.Rajshekar, - http://www.bookmasters.com/clarity/b0001.htm Samar From kekai at JPS.NET Sun May 23 17:17:02 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 10:17:02 -0700 Subject: Racial Origin of Caste (Re: varna and jati) Message-ID: <161227049236.23782.13066694479376635436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Samar, Obviously the opinions of Clyde Winters and Runuko Rashidi won't be too popular with some on this list. I've corresponded with both these researchers over the Internet. The genetics articles are mainstream though. I notice that you are posting from an Indian address. Were you able to see Rashidi when he came to India? The Black identity movement seems to be gaining a lot of popularity among Dalits. And Winters is widely published in South Indian journals. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala Samar Abbas wrote: > > On Sat, 22 May 1999, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > 'VarNa' never meant 'skin colour' or 'race' - such interpretation seems > > to be a survival of XIX century racist or "colonial" ideas. > > Genetics has recently proven that the caste system of India is racial in > origin, with different castes representing different races : > > - M. Bamshad et al, "mtDNA Variation in Caste Populations" > Human Biology vol. 68 (1996) p.1 > > - ` p53 polymorphisms and haplotypes show distinct differences between > major ethnic groups', A. Sjalander et al, > Human Heredity (GE9) ( 1996 Jan-Feb ) 46 (1): 41-8. > > Both papers show that the Sudroids are of African (and not Caucasoid) > stock, explaining the `black' colour associated with them in Vedic texts. > IndoPedia has a good page on this - > > `The Sudroid or Indian Negro Race' > - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1335/Anthro/sud_afr.html > > Prof. Clyde A. Winters has given linguistic evidences of Indo-African > languages at (and has deciphered the Harappan script based on African > models): > > - http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/dra2.htm (ekwesi) > - http://homepages.luc.edu/~cwinter/wrharap.htm > > The `yellow' colour of Vaisyas may be due to darkening of Aryan skin, or > due to Mongoloid (`Naga') admixture; other surveys show considerable > Mongoloid racial admixture, esp. in East India. > > Some more entirely political links, not very scholarly, but > shows that Sudras (Dravidians, Dalits and Adivasis) are becoming more > concious of their Black Heritage. Please do not visit if offended by > political `Indology' : > > `Africoid Populations In India', Runoko Rashidi > - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/8192/india.html > (Has a photo of a Dravidian girl. Anyone claim she is Aryan ?) > > `The African Presence in India' by Runoko Rashidi > - http://saxakali.com/Saxakali-Publications/runoko19.htm > - http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/india.html > - http://pan.afrikan.net/history.notes/home.html > (Rashidi recently visited India, and gave several speeches of solidarity > with the Dalit Panthers, a movement modelled on the Black Panthers) > > `Revival Movement for Dravidian Religion', Dr. M. Deivanayagam > & Dr. D. Devakala > - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1412/index.html > (some nonsense, some sense) > > `Dalit : The Black Untouchables of India', V.T.Rajshekar, > - http://www.bookmasters.com/clarity/b0001.htm > > Samar From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Sun May 23 11:06:44 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 13:06:44 +0200 Subject: the meaning of varNa Message-ID: <161227049257.23782.7651078797706398059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, if varNa was never used for the colour of (human) skin - what is the proper sanskrit word for 'skin colour'? Regards, Ferenc From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 23 20:20:19 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 13:20:19 -0700 Subject: Racial Origin of Caste (Re: varna and jati) Message-ID: <161227049247.23782.501065973281962373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Paul Kekai Manansala Subject: Re: Racial Origin of Caste (Re: varna and jati) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 20:51:41 -0700 Mr. Mananasala wrote For example, Sikhs, in general, are much taller and have somewhat different features than Tamils. There's a lot of overlap, though, I admit. None of this supports any 'invasion' theories, but I think that some try too hard to deny any outside 'racial' influence on the Indian population. Vishal Writes: I agree that it is shear bigorty to say that there is something called a 'pure Indian race' because over the past millenia, several races have entered India and have settled down. In a similar manner, millions of Indians have been uprooted from their homelands and have migrated elsewhere (like the Gypsies or the several 100000 Hindus enslaved by the Turks, Mongols, Muslims etc. and taken to Arab countries, Central Asia and Persia etc.). One thing that perplexes me however is the tendency to regard 'Sikhs' as a separate entity while considering the racial diversity in India. Really speaking, Sikhs are Punjabis. In fact, more than 1/2 of Punjabis are Muslims, more than a quarter are Hindus (including many of my anscestors) and approximately 1/7 are Sikhs. Infact, as a Hindu whos 3/4 anscestors are from the Punjab, Jammu etc. and whose wife is a 100% Punjabi, let me inform you that there is no sharp boundary between Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs. For instance, my spouse reads the Sikh text 'Dukh Bhanjani' everday (and has never read any other Hindu scripture) and we frequent the Gurudwaras. At present, she is keeping a Sikh observance called the 'Chaliya'. We know several recent Hindu refugees from Afghanistan who called themselves Hindus but are spiritually Sikhs (this can be explained from the fact that they escaped the British instigated divide between Sikhs and the rest of the Hindu community). Two of my great grandmothers were Sikhnis (and retained the name 'Kaur' after wedding into our family) and one of them had blue eyes. Which is why, I and at leaset one of my cousins (I remember that shince I was grown up when she was born) also had blue eyes when we were born, but the color darkened within a year and now we have the regular black eyes and hair. Witihin the same family, it is not uncommon in North India to find people who are extrmely fair, to people who are very dark. My father's family is a glaring example to me. One of his brothers passes easily as a white while 2 others are very dark. The same goes for his sisters as well! And although I am a Northerner, I have had several South Indian habits since I was a toddler (like the typical south Indian way of Nodding the head to say 'Yes', excessive love for South India cuisine--just a while back I made Idlis, and I have even memorised a Manipravala song to memory). My Tamil friends said that they would find a Tamil bride for me till I bumped into my wife last year! So we should be careful before casting Indians into racial categories! It hurts our sensibilities. Regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 23 20:54:29 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 13:54:29 -0700 Subject: Racial Origin of Caste (Re: varna and jati) Message-ID: <161227049249.23782.17572098310564411126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This post is another example of what happens when we ignore the traditional etymologies given in the Vedangas and resort to flights of fancy. The Nirukta clearly states: "Varna vrnoteh" meaning that 'Varna' is that which is 'acquired'. The implication is clear. In fact, a verse in the Mahabharata reads (please do not ask me to search for the reference-I usually quote from memory, but I will be grateful if any list member can locate it): "We donot see any rule that the Brahmanas are white, the Kshatriyas are red, the Vaishyas are yellow and the Shudras are black." If we really see the above association of colors with the 4 Varnas, it will be clear why these colors have been associated with the 4 respective castes. White stands for Purity, Holiness, Simplcity, Straight forwardness--Hallmarks of true Brahmins Red stands for Passion, Anger, Violence etc: Qualities depicted by Kshatriyas Yellow is remniscient of Gold, a symbol of Wealth--with clear Vaishya connotations. Black stands for Sorrow, ignorance, delusion: A hallmark of persons who are bereft of understanding and knowledge i.e. the Shudras. So there is nothing racist about this color coding. Another parallel example is afforded by the characterization of the Sattva, Rajas and Tamas by the colors White, red and black. The reasons for using these 3 colors alone should be clear (ask me if you do not understand). Regarding the 'Dark Dasyus', I refer you to the book "Kya Vedon mein Aryon and Dasyuoun key paraspar yuddhon ka varnan hai?" by Pt. Ramagopal Shastri. In this text of more than a 100 pages, the learned author has examined each context in the Rigveda where the words Dasyu, Shambhar, Arya etc, occur and has conclusively shown with the help of the context of these verses, the Brahmanas and Vedangas that if at all there are 1 or 2 places where the Dasyus must be taken as 'Dark Men', the meaning implied is metaphorical and not literal. Even amongst the 'Dark, Dravidian Malyalis' who perform the Kathakali, a black mask denotes evil (this was told to me by none other than the famous dancer Sonal Mansingh), And white Christians themselves denote the Angel of death, Satan etc. in black robes. The Song of Solomon in the Old Testament says "I am dark BUT comely". Are all these 'Racial"??? As a child, I remember that I made a Christmas Card for a Christian teacher and not knowing the signficance of the black color in Christianity, I drew a white Angel holding a Black Cross. The teacher lovingly explained to me why it was not proper to draw a Black cross on the Christmas Card. Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Samar Abbas Subject: Racial Origin of Caste (Re: varna and jati) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 08:10:35 +0530 On Sat, 22 May 1999, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > 'VarNa' never meant 'skin colour' or 'race' - such interpretation seems > to be a survival of XIX century racist or "colonial" ideas. Genetics has recently proven that the caste system of India is racial in origin, with different castes representing different races : - M. Bamshad et al, "mtDNA Variation in Caste Populations" Human Biology vol. 68 (1996) p.1 - ` p53 polymorphisms and haplotypes show distinct differences between major ethnic groups', A. Sjalander et al, Human Heredity (GE9) ( 1996 Jan-Feb ) 46 (1): 41-8. Both papers show that the Sudroids are of African (and not Caucasoid) stock, explaining the `black' colour associated with them in Vedic texts. IndoPedia has a good page on this - `The Sudroid or Indian Negro Race' - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1335/Anthro/sud_afr.html Prof. Clyde A. Winters has given linguistic evidences of Indo-African languages at (and has deciphered the Harappan script based on African models): - http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/dra2.htm (ekwesi) - http://homepages.luc.edu/~cwinter/wrharap.htm The `yellow' colour of Vaisyas may be due to darkening of Aryan skin, or due to Mongoloid (`Naga') admixture; other surveys show considerable Mongoloid racial admixture, esp. in East India. Some more entirely political links, not very scholarly, but shows that Sudras (Dravidians, Dalits and Adivasis) are becoming more concious of their Black Heritage. Please do not visit if offended by political `Indology' : `Africoid Populations In India', Runoko Rashidi - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/8192/india.html (Has a photo of a Dravidian girl. Anyone claim she is Aryan ?) `The African Presence in India' by Runoko Rashidi - http://saxakali.com/Saxakali-Publications/runoko19.htm - http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/india.html - http://pan.afrikan.net/history.notes/home.html (Rashidi recently visited India, and gave several speeches of solidarity with the Dalit Panthers, a movement modelled on the Black Panthers) `Revival Movement for Dravidian Religion', Dr. M. Deivanayagam & Dr. D. Devakala - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1412/index.html (some nonsense, some sense) `Dalit : The Black Untouchables of India', V.T.Rajshekar, - http://www.bookmasters.com/clarity/b0001.htm Samar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 23 21:00:38 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 14:00:38 -0700 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049250.23782.10756099293796621310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The association of Lord Parshuram with the Namudiris as well as the Konkanastha Brahmins might have something to do with their shared anscestry. I am informed according to tradition, Lord Parshuram (who destroyed all the Kshatriyas on the earth) reclaimed the land called Kerala nowadays by throwing his bow into the sea (the state of Kerala indeed looks like an unstretched bow) and then settled the 64 (I am not sure of the number) Brahmin families therein. The name of Parsuram is infact hallowed in several parts of Konkan (at least in the Maharashtra portion covering Ratnagiri and other districts) and Northern Konkan has infact been called 'Parshuram' in someold texts. For instance, a verse from Maharnava quoted in the commentary on Saunakiya Caranavyuha says that the 'Hirnyakesins reside at Parsuram." This is true even to this day as the followers of the Hiranyakesin Yajurveda Shakha live even today at Ratnagiri, Alibad, Raigadh, Sidnhudurg etc. A close friend of mine, who was my room mate at college, hailed from the same village in Ratnagiri as Veer Savarkar (he still visits the village once a year) and informed me that there are several Shiva temples in the region said to have been found by Bhagvan Parshuram. Regards Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Swantham Subject: Re: Nambudiris Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 01:31:24 +0530 Dear Sir, Thank you for the query.It is believed that the Kadamba king Mayura(340-370A.D.) brought the Brahmins to Kerala.Since they were all Aryans coming from the North there is possibility for Nambudiris to hail from Maharashtra also.Sir William Logan has stated in the Malabar Manual that the Nambudiris of Panniyur of the northern Kerala had connection with the Chalukyas and those of Chovvara with the Rashtrakutas.Even today the temple at Mukambika (Kollur)is visited by the Keralites in large number. One Nambudiri family here in Trivandrum namely Kollur Madham originally came from Kollur centuries ago. Their temple -Kollur Devi temple is still here. K.Maheswaran Nair ---------- > From: N. Ganesan > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Nambudiris > Date: Saturday, May 22, 1999 5:02 PM > > Dear Prof. Maheswaran Nair, > > Welcome to Indology list. > > I read in Indology some time ago that Nambudiris hail > from Mahrashtra. Prof. Madhav Deshpande wrote then; > Both Konganastha Brahmins and Nambudiris have the same > kuladeyvam temple - somewhere in Konkan. (I need to check > the archives for correct quotes). > > Did Nambudiris arrive in Kerala from Maharashtra region? > When? 5th century? > > Thanks for your answer, > N. Ganesan, PhD > Lead Engineer, > Loads and Dynamics division, > Johnson Space Center, NASA > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From lfacq at GLO.BE Sun May 23 12:01:31 1999 From: lfacq at GLO.BE (Leo Facq) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 14:01:31 +0200 Subject: Font Software for Windows In-Reply-To: <19990522013847.27446.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049240.23782.8120628916494844425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Richard, Try following address for your fonts Devanagarii and Transcription: 6H SOFTWARE 68, Home Park Road London SW19 7HN Tel. 181 944 9496 We give them excellent references Best Regards -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK] namens Richard Mahoney Verzonden: zaterdag 22 mei 1999 3:39 Aan: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Onderwerp: Font Software for Windows I am in the process of finding software to: 1) transliterate Sanskrit from Devanagari to Roman, and 2) type and print Sanskrit in Devanagari. My PC is a 486 with 16M RAM running Windows 95 and MS Office Pro. Do list members have any advice? Richard Mahoney Student Department of Philosophy & Religious Studies University of Canterbury New Zealand ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 23 21:18:54 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 14:18:54 -0700 Subject: Dr. Thompson's dating of the Rigveda Message-ID: <161227049252.23782.5276979609889035726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Prasad Velusamy Subject: Re: Dr. Thompson's dating of the Rigveda Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:05:57 PDT --- Vishal Agarwal wrote: Dr. Madhuresan wrote: Let us work with the extant texts, I do not see a big problem in composing them all over India over a period of 13 centuries. Didn't mahakavis have power to compose 1000s of songs overnite? Just the volume of texts may not necessarily lead to this conclusion. Vishal wrote: What makes you think that all this was achieved in 3 centuries? How do you say so? What is the probability? The rhetorical retort on the Mahakavis is therefore worthless here and does not amount to much. Prasad wrote Misrepresentation using rhetorics! I do not think Dr. Madhuresan is committed to the thought that "all this was achieved in 3 centuries". Vishal writes: Please do not detach words out of the context. The words 'Rhetorical retort' qualifies the example of Mahakavis only. The '3 century' statement was in connection with the example of Rigveda and the Apastamba Srauta Sutra (although it can be easily extended to cover many other texts). Infact, if we draw a distribution curve of Vedic texts from 1000 B.C.E (assuming Dr. Thompson's chronology) to 3rd Cent. C.E., we will get a very skewed curve with an everwhelming majority of texts being older than 4th Cent. B.C.E. The very few texts that postdate (assuming Dr. Thompson's chronology again) this 6 century period include the Atharvaveda Parisistas (according to B.R. Modak), the Vaikhanasa Smartasutras (according to many) and so on. So, while Mr. Madhuresan might not be committed to 'the thought...." yet his statement naturally leads to that conclusion. Or so I think. Prove or demonstrate otherwise if you can. In any case, you have still not answered my question, which was an honest query. Is this is how you treat new List Members?? Regards Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 23 21:49:02 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 14:49:02 -0700 Subject: Dr.Thompson' dating of the RV... Message-ID: <161227049254.23782.18393088661702039184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Vassilkov If so, what particularly makes you think that you are competent enough to dismiss Professor Thompson's hypothesis (which is firmly based on the wide range of Rgvedic, as well as Avestan, texts) and even call it "absurd"? Vishal writes: Your post still does not respond to my question. Please read to a relevant post of mine dated May 13 wherein I have stated that all different methods of dating the Vedas should reach the same date. If they do not (as is the case now), then the more accurate method's conculsion should prevail. Moreover your retort has a fundamental flaw of logic. FYI, I had tried to use a method called 'process of elimination' to arrive at the right solution. If I cannot question Dr. Thompson's date just because I do not have a suggestion for the same then by the same token I cannot criticize Sylvestor Stallone's acting because I cannot act better than him. Or I cannot cirticize a specific mistake of Coach Spurrier because I cannot coach the 'Gators football team' better than him. My father does not know Sanskrit, yet he taught me the following Sanskrit proverb in my childhood- "Vidya dadati vinayam." And also he told me "Vidyadambhah kshanasthayi". And therefore, adhereing to the spirit of the Indian tradition (or which Dr. Thompson and you are scholars), I admitted my limitation when I ought to have. But your behavior reminds me of the condemned 'Vedavadarataah' of Gita and of the Rgvedic mantra "Yastanna veda kimrcha karishyati?" Mr. Vassilkov wrote: As for your own suggestions, how can you explain the fact that the civilization of Classical Greece in the first four or five centuries of its existence produced several times more texts than Vedic India in its whole history? (If we take into account only surviving texts, which is the only correct procedure). Should the Greeks too claim a period of several millenia for their several thousand titles or so? And what about China? Vishal writes: Most of the points have been answered by Mr. Shirish Rao earlier. I would like to add that you do not seem to have any idea about the extent of the lost literature of India. Again, to repeat Mr. Rao's statement. your statement that we should take into account only the surviving texts is totally bereft of logic. What makes you think that the 'extant' texts have not been published. Do you even know that of the Rigvedic Shakhas available, only the Shakala Samhita has been published and at least 3 others (Ashvalayana, Shankhayana and Bashkala) lie in Manuscripts? Let us come to other Vedas. Have you even seen the accented text of the Maitrayaniya Aranyaka? As for China, everyone knows that their civilization is indeed several millenia old (so what are you trying to say?). Again, as I pointed in an earlier post, my intent was not only to raise the issue of the large number of texts, but also the long period of prior developments pre-supposed by them. Besides, what does your example of Greece show? Can semi nomadic and 'city destroying' Aryans compose the texts that we have today? Did Euripedes, Sappho, Pindar, Sophocles et al belong to city destroying, semi nomadic races or to city states? I fail to understand the comparison. Regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 23 22:06:10 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 15:06:10 -0700 Subject: Dr.Thompson' dating of the RV... Message-ID: <161227049255.23782.101283201831565423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri Iyer wrote: "Shri Agarwalji, Greek texts are much more varied in contents than Vedic works - ritual priests' operation manuals usually. I understand that you do not support Rajaram who is of course opposed to Jan Gonda and George Thompson studying our holiest of the holy books. Reading Gonda and Thompson I do not feel they deserve the honor - "absurdity". Vishal responds: First, please do not add honorific suffixes to my name. My age (28 years) does not warrant it. Secondly, the Vedic texts are not merely ritual manuals. The belief that 'all Vedas are meant for dravya yajnas' itself is very old ('Yajno vai shresthhatama karma" Shatpatha 1.1.1.1) and dates from the period of Brahmanas itself. The present collections/.arrangement of Mantras might have been done to suit ritualistic applications, but the truth is that a majority of them have no connect to rituals. Another point that is missed by many is that the Brahmanas, (even though in Vedic Sanskrit), cite several verses in 'Laukika Sanskrit' with the introduction "Atraita slokah' and so on. Is there any strong reason to believe that these are later additions? Regarding Dr. Rajaram's attitude towards the Vedas, he informed us that being a scientist, he cannot believe that they are of divine origin. So I think we can safely discount any religious motives in his analyses. At best, we can say that it favors Indian Nationalism (although the gang of 'Eminent Historians' would prefer the term 'Hindu communalism.' For an expose on them, 'Colonial Indology' by Chakrabarti is a good reference). As far as my attitude towards Dr. Gonda is concerned, please refer to my earlier post on him wherein I actually praised his works for their comprehensiveness, thoroughness and my adjective 'Absurd' was restricted to his English translation of the Rigvidhana. Secondly, I said that ' when looks at the absurdities of his translations (again with reference to some verses of Rgvidhana), one is left perplexed." So I have not condemned him per se.. Rather I have carefully chosen a mild word to end my post. I still say that many of his works do offer valuable insights, although others have questionable merit. Will respond to my views on Dr, Thompson later. Best regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 23 22:21:04 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 15:21:04 -0700 Subject: the meaning of varNa Message-ID: <161227049260.23782.7053448815953494160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Respected Mr. Ruzca, The word Varna has indeed been used for 'skin color' not only in Sanskrit but also in several Indian vernaculars. For instance, it is used in this sense in the following line of the famous Hindi Hymn 'Hanuman Chalisa'--"Kanchan varan keshari nandan" However, that still does not prove that when used for caste, it denotes 'skin color'. As is well known, the same word can have two opposite meanings in two different contexts and depending on how it is derived. Consider these two examples: 1. The word Vrsshala ordinarily means 'cruel' or 'lowly' but it could also mean 'benevolent'. For an example of the letter, refer to the 'Mudrarakshasa' wherein Chanakya addresses Chadragupta Maurya by this term. The contexts clearly shows that the second meaning is implied. 2. The word 'Asura' can be split up as: Asura = Asu + ra Asura = A + Sura The meanings are quite opposite and the correct way of dissolving the word is decided by the Vedic accent there. Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Ferenc Ruzsa Subject: the meaning of varNa Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 13:06:44 +0200 Friends, if varNa was never used for the colour of (human) skin - what is the proper sanskrit word for 'skin colour'? Regards, Ferenc _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 23 22:24:50 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 15:24:50 -0700 Subject: Bhagvatpada Samkara and his views on Samkhya in the Bhasya on BG 18.19 Message-ID: <161227049262.23782.16798445232220029968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri Vidyasamkar Sundaresan, In an old email, I had mentioned that Bhagvatpada accords partial validity to 'Samkhyan categories' (in contrast to his comment on B.S. 2.1.2) in his commentary on a verse of the 18th chapter of BG. . You asked me for the specific verse. I did post a response but apparently it did not post correctly (as with several other responses). Please refer to his comment on verse 18.19 Regards Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 23 22:40:23 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 15:40:23 -0700 Subject: Ashtadhyayi Teacher at Delhi Message-ID: <161227049265.23782.4982117788614333304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Allen Thrasher had asked about availbility of a tutor of Ashtadhyayi at Delhi for his friend. I suggest that the following places be contacted and they can direct him to numerous scholars of Ashtadhyayi in and around Delhi: 1. Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha Dayanand Bhawan (Near Delhi Stock Exchange) Asaf Ali Road, Delhi- 110006 2. Arya Pradesh Pratinidhi Sabha Arya Samaj Mandir Marg New Delhi- 110001 Contact Mr. R. N. Sehgal at 343718. Please note that I am not an Arya Samajist and therefore am not trying to prosetylize anyone. However, I know that they do have numerous scholars of this text in and around Delhi. Secondly, with due regards to you and your friend (who I am sure is already adept at Sanskrit), I am really skeptical if the Ashtadhyayi can really be completed in 2 months. Therefore, your friend could buy a lucid commentary on the same while at Delhi. I recommend the following Hindi commentary (in 3 volumes) 1. Ashtadhyayi Bhasya; Pandit Brahmadatta Jijnasu; Publ.- Ramlal Kapoor Trust. This text should be available from the shop of the Publisher on Nai Sarak (close to the Fatehpuri end) or any other Indological Book shop on the same road. The author of the above has also written another 2 volume guide to the 'Ashtadhyayi' which aims at enabling the student master the text without rote in 6 months. The name is 'Bina rate rataye 6 mahinon mein......." This might also prove useful. He could also purchase the 'semi-critical' text of Ashtradhyayi by the same publisher. Hope I have been of some help. Best Regards, Vishal ________ PS: I am currently reading your "Advaita Vedanta of Brahmasiddhi." Very insightful work. Two years back, I tried to obtain a copy of your Doctoral thesis via ILL but got a note from Harvard saying that I will have to buy it for $35 :-( _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun May 23 19:01:28 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 19:01:28 +0000 Subject: Rigveda: shroffing, assaying, nes.t.r. Message-ID: <161227049241.23782.6476785574855381789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The r.ca from Rigveda (RV 10.091.10): Sa_yan.a's translation: Yours, Agni, is the function of the Hota_,yours the duly-performed function of the Pota_, yoursthe function of the Nes.t.a_, you are the Agni of the sacrificer, yours is the office of the Pras'a_sta_, you act as Adhvaryu, and you are the Brahma_ and the lord of the mansion in our abode. [You are the Agni: you are the fire-kindler, or agni_dhra]. Together with Pota_ (which is a dravidian semant. por-r-i), Nes.t.r. is also a dravidian substratum lexeme, explained in the context of the central theme of the entire Rigveda, the process of acquisition of wealth, through agni_dhra... It will be interesting to investigate if there are cognate Sumerian lexemes, or references in Avestan, or IE re-constructions which define the functions of or the office of the Nes.t.r. in the context of assaying of precious metals or even, examiner of the quality of calcined metal, r.ji_s.in (which is explained as stale Soma)... neSTR m. (prob. fr. %{nI} aor. stem %{neS} ; but cf. Pa1n2. 3-2 , 135 Va1rtt. 2 &c.) one of the chiefofficiating priests at a Soma sacrifice , he who leads forward the wife of the sacrificer and prepares the Sura1 (Tvasht2r2i so called RV. i , 15 , 3) RV. Br. S3rS. &c. (Cologne Skt. lex.) Dravidian semant. which are consistent with the 'assaying' or 'examiner' functions of the metallurgist, shroff: Nes.t.r.: DEDR 3766:ne_t.t.am = acquired property (Tamil); acquisition, gain (Malaya_l.am); ne.d.- = to earn (Kod.agu); de_r.u_ borrowing of milch-animals for their milk, animal borrowed for its milk (Bra_hui) DEDR 3794: no_t.aka = eyewitness (Kannada); no_t.t.am = shroffage, examination (Malaya_l.am); assaying (Tamil) DEDR 3637: na_t.u = to examine, be measured (Tamil); na_r.- = to see (Gondi) DEDR 3642: na~_d.- (eyes) to open (of young animals), which when born are unable to see (Parji); an.d.ra'a_na_ = to open one's eyes (Kurux) Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH Sun May 23 18:42:38 1999 From: Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH (Anand Nayak) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 19:42:38 +0100 Subject: Image worship and bhakti In-Reply-To: <19990524144602.93286.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049371.23782.3032753045446550527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am interested in passages in bhakti literature which describe the ideology >of statue/image worship. Are there any loci classici? Also, any references >to self-immolation with regard to bhakti practices would be much >appreciated. Thanks for any help. > >Justin Meiland The Bhagavata Purana is certainly one of the important sources. The statue (kastha) meditation is frequently described there. The loci classici are: I,6,17-26; II,1,16-39; II,2,8...81; III,28,1-38; IV,8,42-78; XI, 14, 31-46. My little book in French "La m?ditation dans le Bhagavata Purana" (Paris, Dervy Livres, 1978) may be useful. I have brought together in it the various textes from the Bh. P. Greetings. A. Nayak Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Avenue de l'Europe 20 CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon May 24 01:19:18 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 20:19:18 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049267.23782.2448864247887178865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The answer to the question below is the expected one. However, since a computer crash ate my detailed reply, just a few lines now, topic-wise: At 5:28 -0500 5/22/99, Shrisha Rao wrote: >> >> elaborate rules of philology, linguistics, etc., in regard to the >>Vedas ... conveniently >> >> ignored by people propounding "Western scholarship".... >> Which "elaborate rules .... are you referring to ?? >All the elaborate output of the nirukta-s, the pUrva-mImAMsA sUtra-s, >etc., which is conveniently ignored by "Western" scholarship. No, Vedic study started with it: the founder of modern Vedic scholarship, Rudolf Roth, published his edition/transl./study of the Nirukta in 1848 : "Die Religion des Weda". However, much of the popular etymologizing of Yaaska is interesting as such (and a valuable document of *his* time), not as a help to decipher a Rgvedic stanza. Mimamsa represents a more involved question. It is not ignored, but studied as a philosophical system (FYI: I did so, in Skt. only, with the Rajaguru at Kathmandu). Why? First, it is post-Vedic, second it deals mostly with prose sentences in the Brahmanas, third it is interested in ritual procedures. Close as it may come to indigenous philology (this discipline, like historiography, is missing in traditional S.Asia), it does not help much to 'decipher' the Rgveda. Later Mim., of course, has contributed important items, such as a discussion of the meaning of "the word". But, again, this discussion does not help to find out what 'Rta' or even 'graama' mean in the RV. > Why do you think the classical period of study of the Vedas is 12 years? Not to study Mim., but to learn one's Veda by heart and to study ritual. > Also ...`itihAsapurANAbhyAM veda samupabR^iMhayet', etc. A post-Vedic statement and already biased by its very timeframe. > The argument that the itihAsa, etc., came later is not convincing because >there are references >to them in the Vedas themselves (in the Yajur Veda). Nobody knows what a Vedic itihaasa was and how it has changd over time. Someone's Mahabharata is not someone else's. -- Once I found (and lost) the beginning of the Ved. itihaasa: "Manur vai raajasiid" ... Well? The primordial Manu as king of himself, his sons and their families? History? >The grammar of Panini, etc., is an aspect of the classical study of the >Vedas, not a >later canonization of grammar for post-Vedic works It has *incomplete* Vedic rules, yes. It does not explain, e.g., the RV grammatical category of the Injunctive ("chandasi bahulam" is neither explanation nor rule), -- without which one cannot understand very many sentences in the RV. Described (and understood) only in 1967 by K. Hoffmann, Der Injunktiv im Veda . >there are fruitless discussions on what some particular "epithet" in the >Rg Veda means, Without proper meaning of epithets and other difficult words, no understanding of the RV. Language always changes, even Vedic, -- from Rgvedic to Upanisadic language, not to speak of Epic & Classical or modern Sanskrit. > I have yet to come across any "Western" scholar who understands the >notion of > apaurushheyatva ... Really? -- Unfortunately, the Rgvedic AUTHORS of the RV hymns clearly say that *they* composed them, with a lot of effort (even while often using/plagiarizing their relatives' or colleagues' work), and they are proud of their poems + denigrate/disregard those of others. To immortalize themselves, they put their names into their hyms, often in parokSa way. All of this sounds all too pauruSeya to me. > ...several classical scholars have pointed out that it originates >in the RV itself. By whom and where? (after Sayana) -- And I hope not in the puruSa hymn! -- ity alam vivaadena. MW. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From kekai at JPS.NET Mon May 24 03:51:41 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 20:51:41 -0700 Subject: Racial Origin of Caste (Re: varna and jati) Message-ID: <161227049243.23782.2996522215371455812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephens wrote: > > I would suggest an experiment for those that strongly believe in the > Aryan/Dravidian divide in India: > > Take every member from 4 or 5 generations of any one family from either the > so called "Aryan" or the so called "Dravidian" groups in India and line them up (I do not mean literally, could be through photographs) and try to put them in the Aryan or Dravidian pile based on physiology or genetics. You would be surprised at the number of people that cross the line of demarcation. > I agree with what you are saying. However, I think that there are regional differences between the areas of Punjab and much of Pakistan with the rest of India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. For example, Sikhs, in general, are much taller and have somewhat different features than Tamils. There's a lot of overlap, though, I admit. None of this supports any 'invasion' theories, but I think that some try too hard to deny any outside 'racial' influence on the Indian population. >?From my own standpoint, the basis of the South Asian population is what has been called Munda Dravidian. This type is generally short, dark, mesorrhine and prognathous, just like the populations of Harappan, the Megalithic or other early Indian cultures. In the south, there well may have been demographic flow between India and East Africa as suggested by the ancient and medieval Greeks and Roman writers. In Assam, and in regions of Bihar, Bengal and NE UP, near the border with Nepal there is a strong "Mongoloid" admixture. Sometimes this is visible in other areas such as near the coast in parts of southern India. In the Punjab and Pakistan, there is some obvious overlap with Afghan and Iranian populations. Gene flow of this type if found in every region in the world and is nothing to be scared of. However, I will agree that none of this necessarily supports the ideas of AIT. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 24 04:53:59 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 21:53:59 -0700 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049269.23782.10567655401899071048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swantham wrote: >Dear Sir, >Thank you for the query.It is believed that the Kadamba king >Mayura(340-370A.D.) brought the Brahmins to Kerala. Didn't the territory of the Kadambas include territory as far north as Goa? Did Mayurasarman himself rule over the entire western coast, from Kerala to Goa? Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 24 05:31:21 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 22:31:21 -0700 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227049271.23782.7762046437116535719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I have yet to come across any "Western" scholar who understands the >notion of >apaurushheyatva ... It is not clear to me that "understanding" (if not accepting) the notion of apaurusheyatva will greatly affect the dating of Vedic texts. What is a few thousand years here and there in timeless eternity? Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 24 06:23:28 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Sun, 23 May 99 23:23:28 -0700 Subject: Questions : TheravAda and SaravAstivAda Message-ID: <161227049273.23782.5383519089279100953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've a few questions on TheravAda and SaravAstivAda Buddhism. Hope someone can clear it for me : TheravAda : In Milindapanha, NAgasena refutes the Self, asserting it is only the common character of a series of mental states, which is mistaken to be so. 1. So what's NirvAna according to him? Is it the lifeless materialistic state of the underlying elements of existence? If so, did he subscribe to the atomic theory? 2. What are his views on consciousness? Did he think that there's no continuous consciousness and it's only the series of momentary mental states? If this is so, then isn't this at variance with the doctrine of the five skandhAs, which distinguishes between mind and consciousness? SaravAstivAda : VaibhAshika - According to VAsubandhu in the Abhidharmakosham, NirvAna is just a lifeless material existence of the underlying elements of existence. The elements I suppose are the atoms. VAsubandhu follows NAgasena in his views of a Self and infact devotes a whole chapter to refute the concept of a permenant Self. But the VaibhAshikas also assert that consciousness is permanent. Here, does permanence mean eternal? Or is it just permanent for the duration of life, thus refuting NAgasena's theory as a series of mental states? SautrAntika - This schools believes everything is momentary - the Self as well as the elements of existence. They also refute the VaibhAshika view that consciousness is permenant. So what's reality according to them? I remember reading somewhere that they believed that only a subtle consciousness remains at NirvAna. If so, 1. How could they then assert that consciousness is not permanent? and 2. Are they the transitory phase between the VaibhAshikas and the YogacAras? Indebted for any clarifications. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Sun May 23 20:01:24 1999 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 01:31:24 +0530 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049245.23782.8912976378400516733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sir, Thank you for the query.It is believed that the Kadamba king Mayura(340-370A.D.) brought the Brahmins to Kerala.Since they were all Aryans coming from the North there is possibility for Nambudiris to hail from Maharashtra also.Sir William Logan has stated in the Malabar Manual that the Nambudiris of Panniyur of the northern Kerala had connection with the Chalukyas and those of Chovvara with the Rashtrakutas.Even today the temple at Mukambika (Kollur)is visited by the Keralites in large number. One Nambudiri family here in Trivandrum namely Kollur Madham originally came from Kollur centuries ago. Their temple -Kollur Devi temple is still here. K.Maheswaran Nair ---------- > From: N. Ganesan > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Nambudiris > Date: Saturday, May 22, 1999 5:02 PM > > Dear Prof. Maheswaran Nair, > > Welcome to Indology list. > > I read in Indology some time ago that Nambudiris hail > from Mahrashtra. Prof. Madhav Deshpande wrote then; > Both Konganastha Brahmins and Nambudiris have the same > kuladeyvam temple - somewhere in Konkan. (I need to check > the archives for correct quotes). > > Did Nambudiris arrive in Kerala from Maharashtra region? > When? 5th century? > > Thanks for your answer, > N. Ganesan, PhD > Lead Engineer, > Loads and Dynamics division, > Johnson Space Center, NASA > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 24 10:44:23 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 03:44:23 -0700 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049277.23782.12546999005621903841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<>> Didn't Parashurama have the axe, 'parashu' rather than the bow of Ramayana's Ram? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon May 24 09:21:12 1999 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 05:21:12 -0400 Subject: Ketu and Rahu Message-ID: <161227049275.23782.9868581814908843969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On May 21, 1999, Martin Gansten wrote: > from standard grahastotras and -namavalis it is clear that Ketu >is supposed to be the detached head (shiromaatra) of the demon, >while Rahu is the body (kabandha). In astrological texts it is the other way round: Rahu is the head (Brihat Samhita, 5 [I think - anyway it is in Raahucaara-adhyaaya]). As for Ketu, Varahamihira uses the term for comets, etc (Brihat Samhita, 11). Later, Ketu became the name of the tail of Rahu. The history is complex, and is sketched in my book, 'Hindu Astrology - Myths, Symbols and Realities' (Select Books, New Delhi, 1981. The publisher has now gone out of business). Tony Stone Dr Anthony P. Stone Tel/Fax: +44 (0) 1582 626647 [Fax requries prior voice call] http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon May 24 13:03:01 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 06:03:01 -0700 Subject: Help: a quote from kAdambarI edition Message-ID: <161227049279.23782.7969259442320695646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Respected Indology members, I read somewhere that the great editor, K. P. Paraba has written something about Southern Saivaite teachers travel to the North to teach. In Paraba's Kadambari edition. In the Foreword? Can you please give what Sri. Paraba writes about Southern Saivaite teachers? Possibly in: K. P. Paraba, a) kAdambarIkathAsAra of Abhinanda OR b) kAdambarI, Delhi: Naga Publishers, 1985. May be in D. N. Lorenzen's book on Kapalikas and Kalamukhas also. Interested in Bhairava or Shaivaite ascetics travelling to North. Any quotes from Sanskrit texts is appreciated. In anticipation of useful data, Yours sincerely, SM _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 24 14:19:57 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 07:19:57 -0700 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227049282.23782.1167967070661350959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 5:28 -0500 5/22/99, Shrisha Rao wrote: > I have yet to come across any "Western" scholar who understands the >notion of apaurushheyatva ... Heard Dr. Madhav Deshpande in a Seminar that apaurusheyatva was developed later. Do the vedas themselves speak of this concept or a later interpretation of vedas? Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Mon May 24 14:34:06 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 07:34:06 -0700 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049284.23782.3380398781047710158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Swantham wrote: > > >Dear Sir, > >Thank you for the query.It is believed that the Kadamba king > >Mayura(340-370A.D.) brought the Brahmins to Kerala. > > Didn't the territory of the Kadambas include territory as far north > as Goa? > Did Mayurasarman himself rule over the entire western coast, from > Kerala to > Goa? > > Vidyasankar > Is this Kadamban a Chera king? Is Kdamban the name used in Skt literature to refer to Cheran kings or what? Classical Tamil texts frequently refer to the Cheran dynasty as descended from a king who vanquished some adversaries whose "kAval maram" (guard tree or heraldic tree?) was a Kadamba tree growing in the midst of the ocean (on an island?). Looks like Cheran kings favored vedic brahmins considerably because in the CT patiRRUppattu ( a collection of 10 decads on 10 different Cheran kings) a handful of them are referred to in the closing of the decads as "purOcu mayakki" ("excelling the vedic brahmins in purOhita"). One of the cheran kings honored the request of Tamil brahmin poet as a reward for his peon on the king to send himself and his wife to the heavens by sponsoring a series of 10 yagnas at the end of which the couple disappeared. Chandra _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon May 24 19:45:47 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 09:45:47 -1000 Subject: Nambudiris In-Reply-To: <19990524143406.19897.rocketmail@web703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227049302.23782.3738127828081375119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > One of the cheran kings honored the request of Tamil brahmin poet as a > reward for his > poem on the king to send himself and his wife to the heavens by > sponsoring a > series of 10 yagnas at the end of which the couple disappeared... ...with the ritual jewellery... Raja. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon May 24 19:50:29 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 09:50:29 -1000 Subject: varna and jati In-Reply-To: <19990523011453.26546.rocketmail@web703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227049304.23782.13753491293329585190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 22 May 1999, Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote: > > What kind of education system was there in ancient Tamilnadu? Was it > > open to everyone? > > It was not only caste-blind but gender blind too. And blind to > handicaps also. Also Y2K compliant. :-) :-) Raja. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 24 18:08:33 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 11:08:33 -0700 Subject: [Note]: Tamil etc. Message-ID: <161227049291.23782.12961747101630542316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 28 Nov 1996, Shrisha Rao wrote (in the thread, Hindi etc.): [...] >Tamil Nadu is a linguistically homogenous state to a much greater >extent than other states of the South are; Karnataka for instance >indigenously has Kannada, Tulu, and Konkani, all with their own >scripts even, and then there's a massive presence of Urdu, made all >the more permanent by the historical influence of Tipu Sultan, >et al. >Thus it is that the Tamil people are much more liable than their >neighbors to overreact, see "linguistic imposition," etc., because > ******** >they have a narrower world-view linguistically. However, this >************************************************ >should not be misread as general opposition to Hindi in the South [...] This analyis, in spite of being too simplistic, is widely popular and, is a constantly propagated myth. What Shrisha Rao has written in a few postings about Tamil or Tamil Nadu political movements in the above thread is simply NOT correct, I am afraid. In the book, "The Phoneme", Tamil grammarians have been praised for their brilliance in condensing different sounds into few letters whose phonology is well defined depending on their postion. Reasons of Economy! This calls for comparison with the eminent English alphabet. It is important to note that only Tamil has the least number of consonants and was able to withstand the overbearing impact of Sanskrit in the number of alphabets, poetics, etc., All other languages had to succumb to Sanskrit. Dr. Maheswaran Nair, Prof. of Sanskrit, wrote recently: <<>> I would say that Tamil does NOT possess a narrower world-view linguistically. In fact, it is one of the most sophisticated of all the world's grammars. Eg., the 3rd century BCE (?) TolkAppiyar's theory of poetics (a cook book to compose love poems) is unknown anywhere else (including Sanskrit). Anandavardhana's dhvany theory and his exposition on the Natyashastra would have been born when Tamil and Kashmiri Shaivism interacted. Regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Mon May 24 18:57:14 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 11:57:14 -0700 Subject: [Note]: Tamil etc. Message-ID: <161227049295.23782.16526071192918539635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Venkatraman Iyer [mailto:venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 2:09 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: [Note]: Tamil etc. > > > On 28 Nov 1996, Shrisha Rao wrote (in the > thread, Hindi etc.): > > [...] > >Tamil Nadu is a linguistically homogenous state to a much greater > >extent than other states of the South are; Karnataka for instance > >indigenously has Kannada, Tulu, and Konkani, all with their own > >scripts even, and then there's a massive presence of Urdu, made all > >the more permanent by the historical influence of Tipu Sultan, > >et al. > >Thus it is that the Tamil people are much more liable than their > >neighbors to overreact, see "linguistic imposition," etc., because > > ******** > >they have a narrower world-view linguistically. However, this > >************************************************ > >should not be misread as general opposition to Hindi in the South > [...] > > This analyis, in spite of being too simplistic, is widely popular > and, is a constantly propagated myth. What Shrisha Rao > has written in a few postings about Tamil or Tamil Nadu political > movements in the above thread is simply NOT correct, I am afraid. > Actually the exact opposite is true: The cosmopolitan classical Tamil poet kaNiyan2 pUGkunRan2 sang: "yAdhum UrE yAvarum kELir" (puRanAn2URu) -->"All lands mine; all people my kin". Tamils are the only ones who have praised other languages as sweet. Mahakavi subramanya bharathi (early 20 th century) sang: "sundharat telugkin2il pAtticaittu tONikaL oTTi viLaiyADi varuvOm" -->"we shall row the boats singing songs in beautiful Telugu". man2On2maNIyam piLLai sang (mid 20th century): "... kaLi teluGkum kavin2 malayALam ..." -->" sweet telugu and beautiful malayALam" And one etymology for the word Telugu popular in Tamil circles is that it is derived from "tEn2" = honey whereas telugus themselves do not have such a sweet etymological theory! Now it is a common but sad knowledge that many misguided Telugus make fun of Tamil by calling Tamil "aravam" (for "noise" or "snake"). tolkAppiyam (ca. 3rd century BCE) precscribed rules on accommodate Skt. words within the linguistic frameworks of Tamil. Madras metrolpolis is rumored to have very very high rate of telugus and Tamil nadu has a high proportion of people who speak some form of Telugu or Kannada at home. Tamil Nadu state has no incidences of religious riots; or of linguistic riots where non-Tamils were hurt; Tamils always hurt themselves by immolating themselves. unlike in Bangalore of Karnataka where these days it has become routine to attack non-Kanndaigas. > > > I would say that Tamil does NOT possess a narrower world-view > linguistically. In fact, it is one of the most sophisticated > of all the world's grammars. Eg., the 3rd century BCE (?) > TolkAppiyar's theory of poetics (a cook book to compose love poems) is > unknown anywhere else (including Sanskrit). Anandavardhana's > dhvany theory and his exposition on the Natyashastra would have been > born when Tamil and Kashmiri Shaivism interacted. > > Regards, > V. Iyer > I wonder about the relative antiquity of Skt. prosody itself. If vAlmiki is called the Adhikavi for Skt. for having invented the sloka metre (see the Cologne Skt lexicon entry for vAlmiki) and vAlmiki rAmAyaNam itself the first instance of a Skt. work employing such a metre is dated somewhere 5-3rd century BCE whereas in Tamil there is a treatise like tolkAppiyam dated about the same time frame defining *grammar* for prosody and for poruL (semantics or theory of poetics) an even more advanced literary artifact implying that Tamil prosody was very well advanced and there was a long tradition of prosody with very advanced semantic tradition. Comments are welcome. Regards, Chandra _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU Mon May 24 17:10:31 1999 From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 12:10:31 -0500 Subject: varna and jati In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049288.23782.9351161680156274946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is in response to Samar Abbas's message of Sat, 22 May 1999 09:13:39 +0530 regarding jaati and varNa. The definitions he gives for these two terms must be taken with a grain of salt. While jaati in origin may refer to a professional guild, it certainly does not necessarily any more. More important, to give a "racial" or "skin color" definition for varNa is almost certainly incorrect. The colors associated with the varNas in Vedic Prose texts generally are: white (i.e. pure) for the brahmin, red (the color of blood shed in battle?) for the kSatriya, yellow (the color of ripe grain or the color of gold ?) for the vaizya, and black (the opposite of white, i.e. ritually impure, not permitted to participate in sacrifices etc.) for the zuudra. While white and black could possibly be considered "racial" designations (at least by modern racialist or racist definitions), yellow and especially red would hardly make sense as skin color designations in India (or, for that matter, anywhere else in the case of red). No matter what political axes anyone may want to grind, I believe it is time to transcend 19th-century European tendencies to see everything in "racial" terms. abhivaadaye sarvaan, Hans Henrich Hock >On Fri, 21 May 1999, Richard Barz wrote: >> A student who is writing a thesis in political science in international >> relations would like to translate the terms jati and varna into English. > >Varna (`colour') is `race' or `caste', meaning skin colour. >Jati is `professional guild'. These would be the best translations. > >1. `Dalit' properly refers to Scheduled Castes, not ST's. ST's are >referred to as `Adivasis'. Though, sometimes, both SC and ST are combined >under Dalit. As a name it is of recent origin. > >2. The term `Untouchable' is also used. Older terms would be `Harijana' >(coined in the 15th century by a Gujarati poet and later adopted by >Mahatma Gandhi), `avaran' (`casteless or outcaste'). The term Dalit now >occurs in some academic literature in political science. Indologists would >still use other terms (like `Dravidian', `Kolarian', `Mundari') in >preference to Dalit (since the term Dalit did not exist in classical >India). So, usage of `Dalit' is OK in political science, but not >encouraged in Indology. > >Samar From jage at LOC.GOV Mon May 24 18:37:59 1999 From: jage at LOC.GOV (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 14:37:59 -0400 Subject: [Note]: Tamil etc. In-Reply-To: <19990524180833.81214.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049293.23782.18290486665777102687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 24 May 1999, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > On 28 Nov 1996, Shrisha Rao wrote (in the > thread, Hindi etc.): > > [...] > >Tamil Nadu is a linguistically homogenous state to a much greater > >extent than other states of the South are; Karnataka for instance > >indigenously has Kannada, Tulu, and Konkani, all with their own > >scripts even, and then there's a massive presence of Urdu, made all > >the more permanent by the historical influence of Tipu Sultan, > >et al. > >Thus it is that the Tamil people are much more liable than their > >neighbors to overreact, see "linguistic imposition," etc., because > > ******** > >they have a narrower world-view linguistically. However, this > >************************************************ > >should not be misread as general opposition to Hindi in the South > [...] > > This analyis, in spite of being too simplistic, is widely popular > and, is a constantly propagated myth. What Shrisha Rao > has written in a few postings about Tamil or Tamil Nadu political > movements in the above thread is simply NOT correct, I am afraid. > > In the book, "The Phoneme", Tamil grammarians have been praised > for their brilliance in condensing different sounds into > few letters whose phonology is well defined depending on their > postion. Reasons of Economy! This calls for comparison with the > eminent English alphabet. It is important to note that only Tamil has > the least number of consonants and was able to withstand the > overbearing impact of Sanskrit in the number of alphabets, poetics, > etc., All other languages had to succumb to Sanskrit. > > Dr. Maheswaran Nair, Prof. of Sanskrit, wrote recently: > << influence was so fatal that we threw away our alphabet and embraced > the Sanskrit alphabet. While Tamil does everything with its double > vargas(ka-Na,Ca-Na,Ta-Na,ta-na,pa-ma) we in Malayalam have all the > twentyfive. Recently I found out a manuscript of a work by Chattampi > Swamikal who was one of the leaders of the renaissance of Kerala,named > ADIBHASA and edited and published it. The book is in Malayalam.It > tries to establish that MULADRAVIDAM was the ADIBHASA.It discards the > theory that Sanskrit is the ADIBHASA. >>> > > I would say that Tamil does NOT possess a narrower world-view > linguistically. In fact, it is one of the most sophisticated > of all the world's grammars. Eg., the 3rd century BCE (?) > TolkAppiyar's theory of poetics (a cook book to compose love poems) is > unknown anywhere else (including Sanskrit). Anandavardhana's > dhvany theory and his exposition on the Natyashastra would have been > born when Tamil and Kashmiri Shaivism interacted. > > Regards, > V. Iyer > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Monday, May 24, 1999 Am I mistaken in thinking that Konkani rather than having its own script is written in roman, Devanaari and Kannada? Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. Phone: 202 707-9612; Fax: 202 707-0955; US mail: I.T.S. Dev.Gp.4, Library of Congress, 101 Independence Ave. SE, Washington, D.C. 20540-9334 U.S.A. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 24 21:44:28 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 14:44:28 -0700 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049315.23782.9680510153475747335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote: >Is this Kadamban a Chera king? >Is Kdamban the name used in Skt literature to refer to Cheran kings or >what? The Kadambas were a distinct dynasty, who began with Mayurasarman or Mayuravarman. The traditional lore is that this first king was a brahmin. He got into a fight with the Pallavas and established his own kingdom on the western coast. Later kings used only the kshatriya surname varman, but Mayura is referred to both as sarma and as varma. Whether or not the Kadambas were related to the Cheras is unknown. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From justinmeiland at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 24 14:46:02 1999 From: justinmeiland at HOTMAIL.COM (justin meiland) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 14:46:02 +0000 Subject: Image worship and bhakti Message-ID: <161227049286.23782.7245540483260748285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in passages in bhakti literature which describe the ideology of statue/image worship. Are there any loci classici? Also, any references to self-immolation with regard to bhakti practices would be much appreciated. Thanks for any help. Justin Meiland ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Mon May 24 22:03:16 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 15:03:16 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049317.23782.10651187067086968113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Lars Martin Fosse [mailto:lmfosse at ONLINE.NO] > Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 5:21 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: varna and jati > certain phenotypes. However, this is not very likely. As > Bernard Sergent shows > in his recent book, Genese de l'Inde, there must have been a > not inconsiderable > influence from the pre-Aryan (Harappan) culture on the Aryan > sacrifice. This > would indicate that the Aryans on arrival in North India made > alliances at all > social levels, and that they coopted people at the higher > levels of society. > This strategy of cooption was apparently pursued all over > India, with the > result that there are lots of quite dark brahmins. It is also > found in other > Indo-European areas. Therefore, if varna is associated with > skin colour at all, > it is so only secondarily. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > In this regard, it is worth mentioning ziva and murukan2. Classical tamil is replete with references to ziva as the red-bodied (like coral, sky at dusk) or golden-colored. "cev vAn2 an2n2a mEn2i" (akam:0:8) -->"[with] body like the red sky" An etymology for the very word ziva derives it from Ta. civa = red; of course,it is also true that Ta. civa = to be enraged, to be angered; (as is Ta. uru = red and rage, fear, thunder associated with rudra) He is also is called a pArppAn2 (roughly translated as "brahmin") even in CT: "muk kaN pArppAn2" (paripADal: 5:27) -->"the three eyed brahmin" "yAz kezu maNi miDaRRu antaNan2" (akam:0:15) --->"the brahmin with dark-gem-colored and lute-like throat" Similarly murukan2 is also described as being reddish. Given that these two gods are considered so Tamil from time immemorial [pardon my expression in a forum where dates are subject to permanent debates :-)], how come they have fair skins? His consort pArvati is described as dark-skinned and as sister of tirumAl (viSNu) quite in CT too (cilapptikAram: vETTuva vari); and tirumAl's consort tirumakaL or tiru (lakSmi) as the epitome of chastity. [But only dark skin tone has been portrayed as pretty in CT.] These make one wonder if the inhomogeneity in the skin color of Dravidians goes back to much earlier times. Comments are welcome. Chandra _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jpstephen at HOME.COM Mon May 24 19:19:03 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 15:19:03 -0400 Subject: [Note]: Tamil etc. Message-ID: <161227049297.23782.5775440207401045796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: Periannan Chandrasekaran To: Sent: 24 May, 1999 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [Note]: Tamil etc. > "sundharat telugkin2il pAtticaittu tONikaL oTTi viLaiyADi varuvOm" > -->"we shall row the boats singing songs in beautiful Telugu". > > man2On2maNIyam piLLai sang (mid 20th century): > "... kaLi teluGkum kavin2 malayALam ..." > -->" sweet telugu and beautiful malayALam" > And one etymology for the word Telugu popular in Tamil circles > is that it is derived from "tEn2" = honey I would call this "confidence in oneself". If one is confident, he/she has no problem acknowledging what is good in others. > Tamil Nadu state has no incidences of religious riots; or of > linguistic riots > where non-Tamils were hurt; unlike in Bangalore of Karnataka where these days it has become routine > to attack non-Kanndaigas. I have to say Tamils are very generous in this regard. I have personally experienced/witnessed this. When I was travelling in a city bus from Parry's corner to Annanagar in Madras, a Kannadiga asked the bus conductor of the bus we were travelling in where she should get down. The conductor, knowing no kannada, tried his best to answer her using bits of English, Telugu, Tamil, Malaylam etc. Compare this to my experience in Bangalore. Some years ago I had to go from Jayamahal to Sivaji nagar, I was new to Bangalore (not even a month), got into a bus and asked the conductor for a ticket to Sivaji Nagar. My misfortune, at that time English was the only language I could communicate with him in. He asked me if I knew Kannada, I said no, he stopped the bus and asked me to get off the bus. I would like to add here, this may be an isolated incident, the action of one ignoramus. I do have many Kannadiga friends and can speak Kannada quite well now :) I believe these sort of communal feelings are recent developments, probably less than 200 years old. Sujatha From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Mon May 24 19:29:57 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 15:29:57 -0400 Subject: misc about the summer conference In-Reply-To: <199903270332.EAA20462@cisun5000.unil.ch> Message-ID: <161227049300.23782.12204213356727688050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Toru, How are you? I'm starting to think of details of the summer visit to Lausanne. Any advice on where I might stay without selling my son into slavery to pay for it? I tried to read the hotel thing from the website, but I cannot open it -- my message is "does not start with %pdf..." or something like that. Your kind advice most urgently sought. PS: I'm really looking forward to sitting down with you can catching up on the years we haven't talked! warmest, jonathan Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Mon May 24 14:42:36 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 16:42:36 +0200 Subject: the meaning of varNa Message-ID: <161227049306.23782.11337847536381103080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Vishal, > The word Varna has indeed been used for 'skin color' ... However, that > still does not prove that when used for caste, it denotes 'skin color'. Sure, it does not prove - it just makes it possible. And at places I have a feeling that the most natural way of understanding varNa is that it at least includes a hint at skin colour. E.g. in RV. II. 12, 4 b: [i'ndro] dA'saM va'rNaM a'dharaM gu'hA'kaH [Indra] made the varNa of the dAsas lower and hidden the hidden varNa seems to suggest a 'not apparent' (not bright, i.e. dark) colour. Yours, Ferenc From jpstephen at HOME.COM Mon May 24 21:19:26 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 17:19:26 -0400 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049311.23782.1635686256640019598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What would be the earliest European or other text where Caucasians are referred to as "white"? Sujatha From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 01:50:07 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 18:50:07 -0700 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049329.23782.13312339546932142893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, Sri Parashuram got his name because he wielded an axe, although that need not debar him from carrying a bow as well. For instance, the story of Ramayana wherein Sri Rama successfully wields the bow of Lord Siva brought by Parashuram is well known. I quoted this legend not because I believe in it, but because legends are often based on some historical core and so I wondered if there could be any connection between the Nambudiris and the Chitpavans. We can safely discount any relationship beween this story and the Geological studies that show that large parts of Coastal Kerala rose from the Sea a few millenia ago. Regards Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: "N. Ganesan" Subject: Re: Nambudiris Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 03:44:23 PDT <<>> Didn't Parashurama have the axe, 'parashu' rather than the bow of Ramayana's Ram? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 01:57:32 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 18:57:32 -0700 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049324.23782.14647279686335257666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan Subject: Re: Nambudiris Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 21:53:59 PDT Swantham wrote: >Dear Sir, >Thank you for the query.It is believed that the Kadamba king >Mayura(340-370A.D.) brought the Brahmins to Kerala. Vishal asks: I have a related question and would be obliged if List members could answer the same. The Syrian ('St. Thomas) Christians of Kerala claim that their anscestors were Nambudiri Brahmins who were converted by Thomas, the disciple of Jesus, in the 1st Cent. C.E. If the Nambudiris were not around then, then how could this have been possible? Are the claims of the St Thomas Christians false? Regards Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 02:00:06 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 19:00:06 -0700 Subject: Date of Vayu Purana and Manimekhalai Message-ID: <161227049326.23782.8224287414104661318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I was collecting some information for a proposed website and wanted some information on the dates of the above texts. I have read several editions of the Purana and have also encountered 2 English translations of the other (which is a Tamil text) but the information contained in the introductions, as well in the Journal articles on them is confusing/contradictory. I will duly acknowledge all valuable help in the website. Best regards, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 02:07:32 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 19:07:32 -0700 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227049327.23782.8918918560914269504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Respected Dr. Witzel, As you are aware, considerable verbiage has been written on the validity of Dr. Thompson's dating of the Rigveda in the last few weeks. I would be obliged if you state your view (in a single line) on this. Secondly, in your message below, you have referred to 'Post Vedic' texts, obviously keeping in mind a 'Vedic Period.' What, in your opinion, is that period (X B.C.E to Y B.C.E...). Please feel free to state this in a single sentence as well. Third, what, in your opinion, is the date of Purva Mimamsa sutras (I would be obliged if you could elaborate here a little). I understand that you are hard pressed for time. Therefore, thanking you in advance for your reply, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Michael Witzel Subject: Re: Gentoo studies Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 20:19:18 -0500 The answer to the question below is the expected one. However, since a computer crash ate my detailed reply, just a few lines now, topic-wise: At 5:28 -0500 5/22/99, Shrisha Rao wrote: >> >> elaborate rules of philology, linguistics, etc., in regard to the >>Vedas ... conveniently >> >> ignored by people propounding "Western scholarship".... >> Which "elaborate rules .... are you referring to ?? >All the elaborate output of the nirukta-s, the pUrva-mImAMsA sUtra-s, >etc., which is conveniently ignored by "Western" scholarship. No, Vedic study started with it: the founder of modern Vedic scholarship, Rudolf Roth, published his edition/transl./study of the Nirukta in 1848 : "Die Religion des Weda". However, much of the popular etymologizing of Yaaska is interesting as such (and a valuable document of *his* time), not as a help to decipher a Rgvedic stanza. Mimamsa represents a more involved question. It is not ignored, but studied as a philosophical system (FYI: I did so, in Skt. only, with the Rajaguru at Kathmandu). Why? First, it is post-Vedic, second it deals mostly with prose sentences in the Brahmanas, third it is interested in ritual procedures. Close as it may come to indigenous philology (this discipline, like historiography, is missing in traditional S.Asia), it does not help much to 'decipher' the Rgveda. Later Mim., of course, has contributed important items, such as a discussion of the meaning of "the word". But, again, this discussion does not help to find out what 'Rta' or even 'graama' mean in the RV. > Why do you think the classical period of study of the Vedas is 12 years? Not to study Mim., but to learn one's Veda by heart and to study ritual. > Also ...`itihAsapurANAbhyAM veda samupabR^iMhayet', etc. A post-Vedic statement and already biased by its very timeframe. > The argument that the itihAsa, etc., came later is not convincing because >there are references >to them in the Vedas themselves (in the Yajur Veda). Nobody knows what a Vedic itihaasa was and how it has changd over time. Someone's Mahabharata is not someone else's. -- Once I found (and lost) the beginning of the Ved. itihaasa: "Manur vai raajasiid" ... Well? The primordial Manu as king of himself, his sons and their families? History? >The grammar of Panini, etc., is an aspect of the classical study of the >Vedas, not a >later canonization of grammar for post-Vedic works It has *incomplete* Vedic rules, yes. It does not explain, e.g., the RV grammatical category of the Injunctive ("chandasi bahulam" is neither explanation nor rule), -- without which one cannot understand very many sentences in the RV. Described (and understood) only in 1967 by K. Hoffmann, Der Injunktiv im Veda . >there are fruitless discussions on what some particular "epithet" in the >Rg Veda means, Without proper meaning of epithets and other difficult words, no understanding of the RV. Language always changes, even Vedic, -- from Rgvedic to Upanisadic language, not to speak of Epic & Classical or modern Sanskrit. > I have yet to come across any "Western" scholar who understands the >notion of > apaurushheyatva ... Really? -- Unfortunately, the Rgvedic AUTHORS of the RV hymns clearly say that *they* composed them, with a lot of effort (even while often using/plagiarizing their relatives' or colleagues' work), and they are proud of their poems + denigrate/disregard those of others. To immortalize themselves, they put their names into their hyms, often in parokSa way. All of this sounds all too pauruSeya to me. > ...several classical scholars have pointed out that it originates >in the RV itself. By whom and where? (after Sayana) -- And I hope not in the puruSa hymn! -- ity alam vivaadena. MW. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 02:17:26 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 19:17:26 -0700 Subject: the meaning of varNa Message-ID: <161227049334.23782.2909007019016943840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Ferenc Ruzsa Subject: Re: the meaning of varNa Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:42:36 +0200 Sri Ruzca wrote Dear Vishal, Sure, it does not prove - it just makes it possible. And at places I have a feeling that the most natural way of understanding varNa is that it at least includes a hint at skin colour. E.g. in RV. II. 12, 4 b: [i'ndro] dA'saM va'rNaM a'dharaM gu'hA'kaH [Indra] made the varNa of the dAsas lower and hidden the hidden varNa seems to suggest a 'not apparent' (not bright, i.e. dark) colour. Dear Sri Ruzca, The original topic of discussion was color and caste. The equation Sudra = Black would hold only if the the following two equations hold good appropos the Rik cited by you 1. Sudra = Dasa 2. Dasa = Black Obviously, we are not sure of the complete validity of either of the 2 equations and taking the 'Indifferent Position' (viz. 50% probability for both), the mathematical probability that the equation Sudra = Black holds true = 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.25 i.e. 25% As you are aware, the Rigveda hardly dwells on the Varna Dharma. Secondly, you have done good to use the word 'suggest'. To me, the metaphorical meaning of the verse is clearly the primary meaning, since the literal one is impossible. I presume that you would have access to the commentaries of Sayana and Venkata Madhava. I could look or you commentaries on this Mantra by some modern Indian scholars of you wish, to check how they interpreted the mantra. The metaphorical use of the word ' gu'hA'kaH' is analogous to the use of the word 'Hiranya' in 'Hiranyavarnam harinim suvarna..." which is a mantra of the famous Sri Sukta occuring in the Ashvalayana Shakha of the Rigveda and appended as a Khila in the Shakala (vulgate), Bashkala and the Shamkhayana Shakhas of Rigveda. In any case, the word could mean/imply 'black' only if one's interpretation is already biased with the notion of black dasas vis a vis white Aryans. Please cite any other un-ambiguous example. Regards Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 02:21:46 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 19:21:46 -0700 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049331.23782.13704918584201030508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal asks: >Are the claims of the St Thomas Christians false? Yes. There is no ancient corroborating material from the Christendom to say that Thomas landed on the West coast or he was martyred in St. Thomas mount; Largely Portugese era stories. Regards. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 02:29:56 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 19:29:56 -0700 Subject: the meaning of varNa Message-ID: <161227049335.23782.12193229812432662682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri Ruzca, The original discussion dealt with the relationship between caste and color. So appropos your citation, the equation Sudra = Black skin color would hold only if the following equations also hold good 1. Sudra = Dasa 2. Dasa = Black skin color Since we are not sure of any of the two equations above is correct, let us adopt a position of indifference, i.e. assume a 50-50 probability. Them, by laws of mathematical probaility, the possibility that the equation Sudra = Black skin color holds true is 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.25 i.e. 25% It is well known that the Rigveda hardly dwells upon the Varna Dharma. You too have done good in using the word 'Suggest'. To me, the Mantra as whole has the metaphorical sense as the primary meaning, because the literal one is impossible. In any case, the equation Secret = Black/dark would appear natural when one starts with the premise that Dasas are black.There hardly seems to be anything natural about this correlation to warrant such a drastic/definitive conclusion. I feel that the word 'gu'hA'kaH' is used here in the same sense as the word 'Hiranya' in the mantra 'Hiranyavarnam harinim suvarna raja...." which is in the Sri Sukta, and occurs in the 5th Mandala of the Ashvalayana Shakha of Rigveda (and appended as a Khila to the vulgate Sakala, Baskala and the Samkhayana Sakhas of the Rigveda.) Here too, the mantra does not denote a golden or a white skin, but rather gives a sense of 'prosperity', treasure and wealth etc. Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Ferenc Ruzsa Subject: Re: the meaning of varNa Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:42:36 +0200 Dear Vishal, > The word Varna has indeed been used for 'skin color' ... However, that > still does not prove that when used for caste, it denotes 'skin color'. Sure, it does not prove - it just makes it possible. And at places I have a feeling that the most natural way of understanding varNa is that it at least includes a hint at skin colour. E.g. in RV. II. 12, 4 b: [i'ndro] dA'saM va'rNaM a'dharaM gu'hA'kaH [Indra] made the varNa of the dAsas lower and hidden the hidden varNa seems to suggest a 'not apparent' (not bright, i.e. dark) colour. Yours, Ferenc _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ramakris at EROLS.COM Tue May 25 00:11:19 1999 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 20:11:19 -0400 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227049322.23782.18310696008867009256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >>I have yet to come across any "Western" scholar who understands the >>notion of >>apaurushheyatva ... > >It is not clear to me that "understanding" (if not accepting) the notion of >apaurusheyatva will greatly affect the dating of Vedic texts. What is a few >thousand years here and there in timeless eternity? Exactly what I was wondering too. How does "apaurusheyatva" help in Vedic philology? It is of relevance in understanding only later vedAntic thought. Rama From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon May 24 21:20:47 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 23:20:47 +0200 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049309.23782.1971147998298544750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hans Henrich Hock wrote: > More > important, to give a "racial" or "skin color" definition for varNa is > almost certainly incorrect. The colors associated with the varNas in Vedic > Prose texts generally are: white (i.e. pure) for the brahmin, red (the > color of blood shed in battle?) for the kSatriya, yellow (the color of ripe > grain or the color of gold ?) for the vaizya, and black (the opposite of > white, i.e. ritually impure, not permitted to participate in sacrifices > etc.) for the zuudra. While white and black could possibly be considered > "racial" designations (at least by modern racialist or racist definitions), > yellow and especially red would hardly make sense as skin color > designations in India (or, for that matter, anywhere else in the case of > red). > I would like to add some info from Eddic Rigsthula. In this poem Heimdall walks on earth engendering the social classes. He starts with the thralls, which are described as black in the sense of blackhaired, filthy, dirty. Then he goes on to produce free peasants, who are described as reddish in hair colour and skin. Finally, he produces the class of earls (aristocracy) who are fair. It is obvious that race has nothing to do with this, since the three categories belong to the same population. But the at the same time, the heraldic colours have been transferred to physical characteristics. Therefore, it is possible that the heraldic colours on a secondary basis may have been associated with certain phenotypes. However, this is not very likely. As Bernard Sergent shows in his recent book, Genese de l'Inde, there must have been a not inconsiderable influence from the pre-Aryan (Harappan) culture on the Aryan sacrifice. This would indicate that the Aryans on arrival in North India made alliances at all social levels, and that they coopted people at the higher levels of society. This strategy of cooption was apparently pursued all over India, with the result that there are lots of quite dark brahmins. It is also found in other Indo-European areas. Therefore, if varna is associated with skin colour at all, it is so only secondarily. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Mon May 24 21:42:57 1999 From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (jneuss) Date: Mon, 24 May 99 23:42:57 +0200 Subject: prsthamatra and nandinagari Message-ID: <161227049313.23782.11404040381576844515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, I need some reliable information regarding the following questions: 1. When and where was the prsthamatra-vocalization for nagari-manuscripts in use and when was it last used for that script? 2. When and where was nandinagari used in manuscripts? Any suggestions, also regarding books or articles related to these topics, are appreciated. Thanks for reading -- Juergen Neuss Freie Universitaet Berlin Institut fuer Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte Koenigin-Luise-Str. 34a D-14195 Berlin From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 07:12:23 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 00:12:23 -0700 Subject: Bhagvatpada Samkara and his views on Samkhya in the Bhasya on BG 18.19 Message-ID: <161227049344.23782.13460036059767097832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal wrote: >correctly (as with several other responses). Please refer to his comment on >verse 18.19 Yes, indeed. The kApilAs are described as guNa-gauNa-vyApAra-nirUpaNe abhiyuktAH. Thanks for pointing out the reference. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Tue May 25 04:35:01 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 00:35:01 -0400 Subject: misc about the summer conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049339.23782.6547985192032276301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> oops!! sorry about mistakenly sending the personal message to INDOLOGY! Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From langstonrob at JUNO.COM Tue May 25 04:49:34 1999 From: langstonrob at JUNO.COM (robert langston) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 00:49:34 -0400 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049341.23782.17550897012002140450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Ganesan and Indologists, Next door to the rectory, out behind the Church of St. Thomas in Chennai, is a display of artifacts, primitive tools, grave markers, etc. claimed to come from the settlement of St. Thomas himself. Does anyone know if there has been any serious attempt to identify these artifacts and determine their origin? are they fakes? Thanks, Robert Langston >Vishal asks: >>Are the claims of the St Thomas Christians false? > >Yes. There is no ancient corroborating material >from the Christendom to say that Thomas landed >on the West coast or he was martyred in St. Thomas mount; >Largely Portugese era stories. > >Regards. From latamahesh at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 03:37:00 1999 From: latamahesh at HOTMAIL.COM (uma deokar) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 03:37:00 +0000 Subject: Request to Indologists Message-ID: <161227049337.23782.2496889477551589187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Respected Indologists, I am a Ph.D. student in the University of Pune, the Department of Sanskrit and Prakrit Languages. I am working on 'A Critical Survey of Modern Sanskrit Dictionaries' for my Ph.D. The aim of this thesis is to attempt the formulation of lexicographical principles o Sanskrit Dictionaries. I am hereby forwarding one questionnaire to all of you who are involved in the study of Sanskrit in some way or the other in order to know the readers' views about Sanskrit - English dictionaries which will help me to draw some guidelines for Sanskrit dictionaries. Please forward this to all those who are engaged in the Study of Sanskrit. Thanking you in advance, Sincerely, Uma Deokar 1. Name 2. Age 3. Nationality 4. Educational Qualifications 5. Specialisation 6. Present academic status 7. How many years you are engaged in Sanskrit Studies ? 8. Which Sanskrit - English dictionaries have you used ? Specify if any particular dictionary is used at particular stage of Sanskrit study - elementary, intermediate or advanced 9. Which dictionary do you prefer ? Please state the reasons for the preference. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 07:49:31 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 03:49:31 -0400 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049346.23782.13882263572961608399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sanskritists, A Gujerati friend who learnt sanskrit in high school in India pronounces word final short "a" so short as to be almost imperceptable. In the modern grammars written in english short "a" is distinguished from long "a" both in quality and length but I don't see any mention that short "a" is pronounced any differently when word final than when word internal. Is there any mention in the sanskrit grammatical treatises of a different pronunciation of short "a" when word final than when word internal? If anyone knows the answer but doesn't want to start another long discussion about whats proper sanskrit pronunciation then if they could drop me a short private note it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in Advance, Harry Spier _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 25 13:08:13 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 06:08:13 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049351.23782.17288796055365087906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was wondering about the same. Does this have anything to with the Nagari script? Not only the word final "a"s, sometimes even internal "a"s are sometimes shortened, though not to the extent of final "a"s. In the South, the word final "a" is pronounced as full. --- Harry Spier wrote: > Dear Sanskritists, > > A Gujerati friend who learnt sanskrit in high school in India pronounces > word final short "a" so short as to be almost imperceptable. In the modern > grammars written in english short "a" is distinguished from long "a" both in > quality and length but I don't see any mention that short "a" is pronounced > any differently when word final than when word internal. Is there any > mention in the sanskrit grammatical treatises of a different pronunciation > of short "a" when word final than when word internal? If anyone knows the > answer but doesn't want to start another long discussion about whats proper > sanskrit pronunciation then if they could drop me a short private note it > would be greatly appreciated. > > > Thanks in Advance, > > Harry Spier > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 25 13:22:09 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 06:22:09 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049353.23782.14491926547104748570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > But the at the same time, the heraldic colours > have been transferred to physical characteristics. Therefore, it is possible > that the heraldic colours on a secondary basis may have been associated with > certain phenotypes. However, this is not very likely. As Bernard Sergent > shows in his recent book, Genese de l'Inde, there must have been a not > inconsiderable influence from the pre-Aryan (Harappan) culture on the Aryan > sacrifice. This would indicate that the Aryans on arrival in North India > made alliances at all social levels, and that they coopted people at the > higher levels of society. This strategy of cooption was apparently pursued > all over India, with the result that there are lots of quite dark brahmins. > It is also found in other Indo-European areas. Therefore, if varna is > associated with skin colour at all, it is so only secondarily. Sounds much like what Madhav Deshpande has wriitten over the years; Also, the recent Indological postings by Palaniappan on potter-priest alliances/cooptions. Is the pre-Aryan (Harappan) culture's influence on the Aryan sacrifice expressed through the mahAvedis of agnicayana ritual? There is no word for brick in RV and IVC is full of them; This contrast declines after a few centuries. Eg., Mahavedis. So, can the ShulbasUtras be attributed to more of Harappan culture, rather than the heritage of the arriving Aryans into IVC? Regards, SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 14:30:31 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 07:30:31 -0700 Subject: viSNukuNDins Message-ID: <161227049356.23782.232508210386865737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Esteemed list members, Is the dynasty title, viSNukuNDin related to kuNDu (pot/jar)? If so, were the vELs? Any agastya links to them? Were their deity Skanda? Comapre: Chaulukyas in their inscriptions claim they are of vEL kulam; Tamil nighaNTus like Pingalandai, cEntan divAkaram (8th cemtury) say Chalukyas are vELir. Also, the place names bELuuru, beLagAm. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From dasa at OZEMAIL.COM.AU Mon May 24 21:31:45 1999 From: dasa at OZEMAIL.COM.AU (Ramadas) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 07:31:45 +1000 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049320.23782.11852049623584504283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: N. Ganesan > Didn't Parashurama have the axe, 'parashu' rather than the > bow of Ramayana's Ram? This is true. In fact, if you ever visit a place called Pajakakshetra, which is not too far from Udupi, you will see several large holes in the sides of the granite hills. These holes are said to have been made by Parashuram's axe when he threw it while creating the land for the Brahmins to live in. It is interesting to note that, although the holes are in the sides of the granite hills, they are always full of clean fresh drinking water even in time of drought. Kindest regards Ramadas dasa at ozemail.com.au From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 25 15:41:45 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 08:41:45 -0700 Subject: Punjab and Aryavarta Message-ID: <161227049360.23782.4153766997369486813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When the Vedic Aryans moved further East into modern U.P., Aryavarta gets defined. Which Sanskrit texts downgrade the present Punjab area (Pakistan, India) as the land of Mlecchas and Non-Aryans? Is it in Manu? What about Puranas? Did this occur after Hunas, Shakas etc., invaded the Punjab and West India? Thanks for clues, SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Tue May 25 16:42:21 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 09:42:21 -0700 Subject: Image worship and bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049374.23782.8248967458347885548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >I am interested in passages in bhakti literature which describe the ideology > >of statue/image worship. Are there any loci classici? Also, any references > >to self-immolation with regard to bhakti practices would be much > >appreciated. Thanks for any help. > > > >Justin Meiland I would suggest the Agama literature. The Pancaratra Samhitas in particular present the theology of image worship in a systematic manner. I would suggest as a start the pAdma samhita, sAttvata samhita, and jayAkhya samhita. Mani From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 25 14:29:20 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 10:29:20 -0400 Subject: Living & Dead Message-ID: <161227049355.23782.2288808885007903722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Sundaresan: > I think this reflects only the situation in southern Karnataka, where there are only Jains and Vedantins among classical thinkers. Your quotation of Prof. Hiriyanna adds to this impression of mine. MY REPLY: Firstly, there are more Jains in Uttar and Coastal Karnatak than southern Karnatak. Secondly, Prof. Hiriyanna's two books are not just for Karnatak area. It is the standard Indian Philosophy text book in many colleges throughout India. Prof. Hiriyanna was no ordinary college lecturer. President Radhakrishnan once called him "my esteemed friend Hiriyanna". In fact, Radhakrishnan had both his volumes on Indian Philosophy reviewed by Prof.Hiriyanna. Thirdly, the Jains have (at least in this century) never engaged in any debates with the VedAntins in Karnataka. For some reason (I personally think it is just brahminical brotherhood), the vidvat sadas is confined just to the paNDit community of the 3 VedAntic schools. >Let's not forget Buddhism. Apart from traditional pockets here and there in various parts of India, we have many neo-Buddhists who are very interested in philosophical issues, and not just in political matters. And since the times of Hiriyanna, the Tibetans have come, as far down south as Mysore now. Perhaps they are still alien, but I see no real prospect of their returning to their homeland in the foreseeable future. As social interactions between Indians and Tibetans increase, philosophical discourse and religious debate will follow, and mahAyAna buddhism will have to be contended with as a religion and as a philosophy. And Buddhism will only have returned to its old homeland. MY REPLY: The neo-Buddhists are TheravAdins, while the Bylakuppe Tibetans are VajrayAnists. When there has been no debate between the 3 VedAntic schools and the Jains in Karanataka, I hardly see any prospect of debate with the Buddhists. Further, in a talk with a Sri Lankan monk (who had recently come from Aurangabad) yesterday during the International Vesak Festivities, I was told of the condition of the neo-Buddhist monks in Maharashtra. The Sri Lankan monk said: "People who were once lorry drivers, laborerers of various kinds just join the Sangha without any knowledge of the Vinaya much less the Dhamma. It is tragic. We are working with the Maha Bodhi Society to rectify the situation as best and as soon as we can. It is an uphill task." The VedAntic PaNDit community of all 3 schools by contrast is well-educated in tarka, vyAkaraNa and tattva. Moreover they are sort of used to each other. Many of them know each other personally for years as they done this sort of thing year after year. >Is it necessary for every classical darSana to be a religious alternative to the vedAnta(s)? MY REPLY: They once truly were and thus acted as rivals to the VedAnta in every way. For almost every position that the VedAnta held, they offered alternative views. And as far as pUrva mImAMsA is concerned, even KumArila bhaTTa didn't think it was an alternative to vedAnta, as he >ended his tantra-vArttika with a statement that the subject of the Atman is discussed only in the vedAnta darSana and not in jaiminI's SAstra. MY REPLY: On many issues in metaphysics the KumArila school of MImAmSA differed from the Advaita school of VedAnta. The Atman is JaDAbodhAtmaka a la KumArila while it is saccidAnanda svarUpa as per Advaita. KumArila's system is NirIshvara in theology, pluralistic in ontology and karma-mArga oriented in sAdhana. Advaita is Seshvara in theology, non-dualistic in ontology and jNAna-mArga oriented in sAdhana. Only in certain aspects, especially epistemology is Advaita like KumArila's system. (vyAvahAre BhATTa nayaH) >Fine, but I don't see why this makes the 5-fold syllogism any less >interesting a field of study. There are still traditional pundits who study the 5-fold syllogism and ponder over the finer points of samavAya >and >vyApti, not to mention the numerous comparative philosophers who are >interested in these concepts. Just last year, I heard of two young >vidyArthIs who were examined and given certificates for proficiency in >nyAya >studies at Sringeri. I'm sure various other maThas and pAThaSalas also >patronize some nyAya specialists. MY REPLY: I never said that the NyAya is of no interest to the 3 types of VedAntins, but it is their modified version of the NyAya. In fact they do not look upon "NyAya" as different. It is a part of their pramANavicAra ShAstra. The real vintage NyAya however is still considered a system with a rival viewpoint. >I do not see why modernizing of Jaina metaphysics should be of interest to >anyone but a Jaina. Hopefully, somebody of sufficient authority among Jainas >will do it, or perhaps not. Why should this be a precondition for the >modernizing of other darSanas? MY REPLY: Largely I would agree with you on this. My main concern is that since these systems sort of grew up together and it would become rather skewed if one bunch got modernized and the other ones still remained pre-modern. Anyway, who am I to say what should or should not be done. >We Advaitins have an advantage; we can see the latest scientific theory >as yet another facet of mAyA, and either ignore it or co-opt it. MY REPLY: This indeed is true. Advaita does have that advantage, but there are plenty of other defects (logical, theological etc.) which refrains me endorsing it completely. I choose to talk about these separately. In general, I thank you for the responsible reply you have given me. I do indeed enjoy reading your observations. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU Tue May 25 16:17:23 1999 From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 11:17:23 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies In-Reply-To: <01bea643$1d3e62c0$2220accf@ramakris> Message-ID: <161227049369.23782.12233162896208887317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Something to ponder: If the Vedas are apauruSeya, what can they tell us about pauruSeya history? abhivaadaye sarvaan Hans Henrich Hock > Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > >>>I have yet to come across any "Western" scholar who understands the >>>notion of >>>apaurushheyatva ... >> >>It is not clear to me that "understanding" (if not accepting) the >notion of >>apaurusheyatva will greatly affect the dating of Vedic texts. What is >a few >>thousand years here and there in timeless eternity? > > >Exactly what I was wondering too. How does "apaurusheyatva" help in >Vedic philology? It is of relevance in understanding only later >vedAntic thought. > >Rama From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 25 15:36:17 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 11:36:17 -0400 Subject: KathakaLi & YakShagAna Message-ID: <161227049358.23782.3914531324528802055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Maheswaran Nair: Are the dance forms of KeraLa and TuLunAD, i.e. KathakaLi and YakShagAna related? They seem to have a lot of similarities. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 25 15:49:04 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 11:49:04 -0400 Subject: GuruvAyUr & UDupi KRShNas Message-ID: <161227049362.23782.1955253065421330907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Both GuruvAyUr and UDupi KRShNa have a lot in common. 1. Both are bAlakRShNa idols of the MalabAr region. 2. Both are associated with miraculous happenings. 3. In the case of GuruvAyUr, KRShNa was established by Guru and VAyu and hence the name. In the case of UDupi KRShNa, VAyu came as a Guru (i.e. MadhvAcArya) and established it. The MAdhvas consider Madhva as an incarnation of VAyu. Every pious MAdhva recites the prayer: Prathamo hanumAnnAma, dvitIyo bhImaeva ca, pUrNaprajn.a tRtIyastu bhagavadkArya sAdhakaH. There is something more to all this than the info I have given here. Good topic for a doctoral dissertation, if can find enough material. I can help on the UDupi Temple end of it (if any candidate is interested). My Master's thesis 20 years ago was on that. It is about 500 pages and covers almost every detail about the temple. I hope to publish it someday. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 25 15:53:01 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 11:53:01 -0400 Subject: Living & Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049363.23782.6054588115761702677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Ruzsa: I thank you for your kind and responsible response. Indeed, what you have said makes sense. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 25 15:54:24 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 11:54:24 -0400 Subject: Living and Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049365.23782.7751718731807441798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ms. Chandran: Thanks for your supportive response. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 19:00:05 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 12:00:05 -0700 Subject: Living and dead systems Message-ID: <161227049382.23782.14225743229660880087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >For some reason (I personally think it is just >brahminical brotherhood), the vidvat sadas is confined just to >the paNDit community of the 3 VedAntic schools. Even in the ancient days of YAgnavalkya, Janaka and AshtAvakra, debating seems to be confined only to the higher classes, predominantly brAhmana, with the occasional kshatriya thrown in. With the later emergence of the nAstika schools - the ChAravAka, the JainA and the Bauddha - started by members of the higher classes again, this would have had a direct effect on Vedic following. This in turn would have roused the adherents of the Vedic religion, to debate with the nAstikas to protect their interests in the society. But I'm highly skeptical, if the traditionalists would have bothered, if such new movements didn't directly affect their religion. For eg : if Buddhism was started by a foreigner and became popular only among the commoners and did not try to proselytize the higher classes, I think it would have been ignored. (This can be seen in the case of Christianity and Islam in BhArath). It was the conversion of the higher classes into the new religions, which made the traditionalists battle the new faiths. And Buddhism being a very aggressive proselytizing religion, definitely attracted heavier criticism from the traditionalists, than the JainAs who weren't so aggressive proselytizers. And this attitude is reflected in today's India, where the traditionalists are hardly concerned about protecting their faiths, as 1. most of their opponents are extinct and 2. since any new revival movements hardly affect their classes, they just ignore them. I don't think there will be any philosophical interaction between the Tibeteans and the traditionalists, unless the Tibeteans actually manage to convert the upper classes, which would rouse the traditionalists to step in to protect their interests. Coming to the second question as to how JainA thought can be modernized : the effort would have to come from their own following (and I see a lot of young Jains already showing great interest in their ancient faith). Probably somebody bright could enhance the classic JainA theory with modern information and do a major reinterpretation of the JinA's teaching. This would definitely ruffle quite a few traditional feathers. But if the effort is earnest and sincere, I'm sure it would at least attract consideration, appreciation and eventually over a period of time, acceptance. The same would apply to all the traditional Astika schools too. With BhArath becoming more prosperous and the citizens now having time to think about things other than survival, considerable interest is being shown in the areas of civilization and heritage. The day for such effort - philosophical revamping, might not actually be very far off. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue May 25 08:04:43 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 12:04:43 +0400 Subject: Dr.Thompson' dating of the RV... Message-ID: <161227049348.23782.6277134986183920973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> First, a short history of the debate: In his posting dated 18 May Mr Agrawal, after presenting his own theory, acc. to which the number and character of the extant Vedic texts >>>>>> pre-suppose several millenia of systematic development, came to the following conclusion: >>>>>> Therefore, Dr. Thompson's dating [of the RV by approximately 1000 BCE] based on a comparison of the other Indo-Aryan languages, to the neglect of a rigorous study of Sanskrit literature, is simply absurd. In a subsequent posting, Dr. Agraval, answering the question of Mr. Iyer >>>>> What is your taking as Rigveda's date... wrote: >>>> I am not competent enough to make a call on this issue. After that I put a question to Mr. Agrawal: >>> If so, what particularly makes you think that you are competent enough to dismiss Professor Thompson's hypothesis (which is firmly based on the wide range of Rgvedic, as well as Awestan, texts) and even call it "absurd"? and got immediate responce from Mr. Shrisha Rao: >> Such vainglorious ad hominem does no justice to you or to the position you are trying to support. It is perfectly reasonable to find that someone else's conclusions on a certain topic is not in order, even if one has not oneself reached a final conclusion yet. In a similiar way, Mr Agrawal himself finds in my words > ...a fundamental flaw of logic....If I can not question Dr.Thompson's date just because I do not have a suggestion for the same then by the same token I cannot criticise Silvestor Stallone's acting because I cannot act better than him... Sorry, dear Mr Agrawal, but at that point I have to return the words about "flaw of logic" back to you. Yes, you can criticise an actor's art not being a better actor yourself. But in the field of science there works another set of rules. If you criticise a scholar's work you have to be yourself a scholar competent in the relevant field of studies, you should have your own firm opinion on the same subject and if you reject a scholar's theory (using even such harsh words as "absurd" and "absurdity"), you should first analyse the facts this theory was based on and then suggest a better, alternative way to explain these facts. What surprised me most of all in your initial posting was that you evidently had no clear idea of the facts Prof. Thompson had based his hypothesis on. You wrote that he based his dating "on a comparison of the other Indo-European languages" (?). It means that you do not know his system of arguments at all. George Thompson undertook a scrupulous linguistic, historical and cultural study of many passages in Rgveda and Avesta, which demonstrated quite convinsingly that there are some parallels (sometimes formulaic) and contrasts, which made one believe that Vedic Indians and Avestan Iranians were conscious of each other's existence and there was even a kind of religious "polemics" between them. If so, Rgveda and Avesta can not be separated by many centuries, as was the common opinion until now. Now, the question arises: how can we date the period when Rgveda and the Old Avesta were at least partly contemporary? Prof. Thompson is inclined to date this period as about 1000 BCE - making the Rgveda a little "younger" than it is usually thought to be and closer to the date of Zoroaster (which is, according to him, around 1000 BCE). By the way, I am inclined to disagree with Prof. Thompson's final conclusion. I think the RV (its oldest core) is probably at least several centuries older than 1000 BCE. But I can not ignore the facts discovered and proven by G.Thompson. And before I proceed with my own dating, I have to explain these facts in some different way. In particular, it seems to me that we should better explain the synchronisms between Rgveda and Avesta not by way of making Rgveda "younger", but rather by accepting an earlier date for Zoroaster (some Iranists now tend to date him by the middle of the 2nd century BCE). But you, Mr Agrawal, did not even try to get acquainted with the texts and facts Prof. Thompson had referred to (which you could do with the help of INDOLOGY's archive). You simply rejected his dating, calling it "absurd", for the only reason that it does not fit with the results of your own calculations. You even accused Prof. Thompson in "the neglect of a rigorous study of Sanskrit literature" - quite undeservedly, as has been shown in the recent postings (May 21 & 22) by Mr. Venkataraman Iyer. That was the best moment for you to remember the favourite sayings of your father: "vidyA dadati vinayam" and "vidyAdambhaH kSANasthAyi" - not later, when you suddenly preferred to declare that you have no opinion of your own on the problem of the Rgveda's dating. But, in fact, you have such an opinion, and you formulated it in your posting of 18 May (to be analysed in the second part of this letter). Yaroslav Vassilkov From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue May 25 08:05:41 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 12:05:41 +0400 Subject: Part II, Re: Dr.Thompson' dating of the RV... Message-ID: <161227049349.23782.10793275538527356776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (Answer to Dr. Agrawal - continued). But, in fact, you have such an opinion, Dr.Agrawal, and you formulated it in your posting of 18 May. Your starting point was your feeling that Prof. Thompson's date for the RV - 1000 BCE - gives us too small (as it seems to you) a period - only (!) 13 centuries - for the development of the great Vedic literature with all its branches, genres etc. You did not take into account that the most productive period of Vedic literature falls upon the so called "Axial period" in the world cultural history, when the great religious and social revolution took place in different parts of the world, when the civilizations and great literary traditions emerged, developed at an exceptional rate and sometimes died after only several centuries of existence. That is why I reminded you of classical Greece and China. You did not confine yourself to expressing your feeling that this period is too short, you tried to prove the same by means of logical arguments. But, I am sorry to say, you demonstrated here total arbitrariness of approach and lack of logic. You start, e.g., with the following reasoning: "At present, we have about 200 Vedic texts...We also know that the extant Vedic literature is a small fraction of what once existed and therefore can safely assume that there were literally more than a 1000 texts that existed once". Why did you name this exact figure? Why not "more than 3000"? Or "5000"? Why not "more than 500"? I don't think you are ready to answer. Another example of your reasoning: "Maharshi PANini quotes 2 dozen or so predecessors" (you mention then several pre-PANinean or no-PANinean grammar texts that have survived)..."My point is that even the current extant texts pre-suppose several millenia of systematic development" (end of the paragraph). Please, try to reread your posting of May 18 in a quiet moment, when you are free of polemic ardour, and tell us then what logic makes you think that if PANini had 2 dozen or so predecessors (some of them could be contemporaries, by the way), and there were also some rival schools, it necessarily "pre-supposes SEVERAL MILLENIA of systematic development"? Logically speaking, it would not even presuppose "several centuries". If you think that it is not enough, please tell me and I will show some other logical inconsistencies in your arguments in the posting of May 18 (I have no time for it now). Therefore, I do not think that your way of reasoning can be considered to be "more accurate method" (your posting of 23 May) that the methods used by modern scholarship. I still think, Mr Agrawal, that your participation in the Indology is benefitial to the List, because you represent in it the position of traditional Indian scholarship. Modern scientific indology and traditional scholarship are two quite different, heterogeneous trends of thought, with different aims and methods; "never the twain shall meet", and no true synthesis, I am afraid, is possible, but the dialogue between them has always been very fruitful. People like you can do a great thing by way of establishing the links of dialogue between two traditions. But the necessary condition of the dialogue is that participants have to be tolerant to each other, to avoid offensive words and polemic exaggerations. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue May 25 16:17:15 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 12:17:15 -0400 Subject: ParashurAma kShetra Message-ID: <161227049367.23782.11285012094922394536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The ParashurAma kShetra is that strip of land along the West Coast of India which is located between the Western GhATs on the east and the Arabian Sea on the west. According to one version, it stretches from NAsik in the North to KankyAkumArI in the South. According to another version, it stretches from GokarNa in the north to Trivandrum in the south. The mythology of ParashurAma is found in the following sources: 1. Vana and Shanti parvas of the MBH 2. Matsya PurANa chaps 42-44 3. the entire SahyAdri KANDa of the SkAnda PurANa (main source) among others. Briefly, the legend is: Having given away the land to Sage Kasyapa, ParashurAma stood at what is now TIrthahaLLi (Shimoga Distt., Karnataka) and after a conversation with the Sea demanding land, aimed his axe. It went a 100 yojanas, creating the ParashurAma kShetra. It includes the CitpAvan (MarAThi-speaking), SArasvat, GauDa-SArasvat (both KonkaNI-speaking), Havyak, KoTa, (both "coastal" KannaDa-speaking) ShivaLLi (TuLu-speaking) and Nambudiri (MaLayALam-speaking) brahmins referred to collectively as the SaptakonkaNa brahmins. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 19:24:43 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 12:24:43 -0700 Subject: Image worship and bhakti Message-ID: <161227049385.23782.1124756708827309423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the Shaiva counterpart, pl. see R. H. Davis, Ritual in an oscillating universe, PrincetonUP. Early forms of piety in Buddhism and Jainism also resemble Hindu bhakti. Regards, N. Ganesan >I would suggest the Agama literature. The Pancaratra Samhitas >in particular present the theology of image worship in a >systematic manner. I would suggest as a start the pAdma samhita, >sAttvata samhita, and jayAkhya samhita. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From jpstephen at HOME.COM Tue May 25 18:16:15 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 14:16:15 -0400 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049380.23782.8136579062827173814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Doesn't the Mahabarata talk about there being one caste in the beginning, the brahmins, and then they were divided into different castes by occupations. In fact, this is what I recall studying as the origin of castes in the history books at school in India. Sujatha From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 21:39:04 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 14:39:04 -0700 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227049395.23782.11541141984384799487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hans Henrich Hock wrote: >Something to ponder: If the Vedas are apauruSeya, what can they tell us >about pauruSeya history? > Depends on whether one holds to a strong or a weak conception of apaurusheyatva. The mantra-drashTAs can be seen as historical persons who had access to atIndriya realities, which got conveyed in historical language. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 21:43:29 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 14:43:29 -0700 Subject: Living and dead systems Message-ID: <161227049397.23782.16597060358831052813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I don't think there will be any philosophical interaction between the >Tibeteans and the traditionalists, unless the Tibeteans actually manage to >convert the upper classes, which would rouse the traditionalists to step in >to protect their interests. I should think that Agehananda Bharati's "pizza effect" will take care of this. Tibetan Vajrayana will impact Indian society through the fame and following it has amassed in the West. By the way, the Mahabodhi society is trying to promote dialogue/debate between Buddhists and Advaita Vedantins. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Tue May 25 04:17:04 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 15:17:04 +1100 Subject: prsthamatra and nandinagari Message-ID: <161227049342.23782.6261900768545238369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >1. When and where was the prsthamatra-vocalization for >nagari-manuscripts in use and when was it last used for that script? >2. When and where was nandinagari used in manuscripts? I don't know anything about Nandinagari, even pRSThamAtrA is hardly ever mentioned. Two "citations" below. The oldest Jain palmleaf manuscripts from Rajasthan and Gujarat give only pRSThamAtrA ie. 12th-13th centuries. However in later manuscripts (I have photocopies from dated manuscripts of 1545 and 1616 CE) it is possible to find scribes using both pRSThamAtrA and the conventional representations of e side by side, sometimes both styles in the same word. Later manuscripts I suspect come to have only the conventional style of e, but there was a long period of overlap when both forms were in use, at least in Jain MSS centres (Rajasthan and Gujarat). Given the conservative nature of Jain scribal traditions (I have not used MSS from other traditions) I think it would be unwise to try to date a NAgarI manuscript solely by the presence of pRSThamAtrAs or not. 1. Chandrabhal Tripathi.1975. Catalogue of the Jain manuscripts at Strasbourg. mentions prsthamatra-s in passing in the introduction (but I don't have the book with me so can't cite the precise page, maybe it is only in a footnote anyway). 2. H. R. Kapadia says only this: The combination of e with a consonant comes to [sic] writing an oblong line raised upon the horizontal stroke of a consonant. This is called a mAtrA. This may be optionally written as a karNa to the right of the consonant and touching the horizontal stroke of the consonant so that it may not be mistaken as a karNa of the preceding consonant, if any. In the latter case such a karNa is called pRSThamAtrA, paDimAtrA, paDImAtrA or pratimAtrA. H. R. Kapadia. 1939. A detailed exposition of the Nagari, Gujarati and Modi scripts. ABORI 19 (1939) 386-411 p. 406-407. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue May 25 20:33:11 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 15:33:11 -0500 Subject: Punjab and Aryavarta In-Reply-To: <19990525154145.27997.rocketmail@send304.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227049389.23782.6872547600371207095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Post-Rgvedic: Already Satapatha Brahmana (bad language) and even Atharvaveda 5.22, PS 12.1-2 : where you send your fever to outlying people like the Banarsis (kAzi)/Anga (Bhagalpur area, S. Bihar) in the east and MahAvRSa (Panjabi) and Balhika (Bactrians) in the west... Patanjali has the oldest "Sikh joke" : gaur bAhIkaH .... MW. At 8:41 -0700 5/25/99, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: >When the Vedic Aryans moved further East into modern U.P., Aryavarta >gets defined. Which Sanskrit texts downgrade the present Punjab area >(Pakistan, India) as the land of Mlecchas and Non-Aryans? Is it in Manu? ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 22:50:51 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 15:50:51 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049406.23782.14397831414117697315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A notable example of Sudras being helped by Brahmins is that of the present Indian President. His Brahmin teacher defied the prevelant norms in those days to educate him with his personal funds. Regards Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Stephens Subject: Re: varna and jati Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:53:49 -0400 After this training they officiated as priests known as "Kamma > Brahmalu" (Kamma Brahmins) at the births, marriages and deaths of those > kamma families which chose to use their services - not all kamma families > made this choice. << This reminds me of a maestri who used to work for Bayer in Salem, Tamilnadu many years ago. I believe he belonged to the so called "scheduled caste" and was in charge of bringing labourers from his village to the warehouse. He was called gounder by his fellow villagers, but he did not belong to the actual "gounder" community of coimbatore/salem area. He used to officiate in his village temple and ceremonies, he was also called poojari by his peers. I know this because his job also included taking me to school everyday and we used to chat enroute. I had earlier posted a question asking for the earliest reference of Caucasians as "whites" in English/European literature. The reason for that question was if this is a recent development of say 1000 years or so, then arriving at the conclusion that the Vedas attributed "white" to the Aryans would seem far fetched. In fact, the day I realised that the Caucasians were called "white", I was stupefied because I couldn't relate the colour white to the skin colour of Caucasians, it was more like pink or some other colour. Sujatha :) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue May 25 20:57:53 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 15:57:53 -0500 Subject: R. Meadow's clarification of BBC news report Message-ID: <161227049392.23782.8728540564134624078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As the recent BBC report on the Indus script as "the oldest in the world" has created a lot of interest in this and other lists, I transmit the following clarification by Dr. R. Meadow, Harvard University & Director of the Harappa project. Motto : always check your (news) sources yourself! --- MW Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: meadow at fas.harvard.edu (Unverified) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:17:18 -0400 To: Michael Witzel < From: "Richard H. Meadow" < Subject: clarification of BBC news report Status: ========================================================================== Communique from Richard H. Meadow, Peabody Museum, Harvard University, 24 May 1999 On May 4, 1999, Dr. David Whitehouse of BBC Online released a story titled "Earliest Writing Found" based on a telephone interview with Dr. Richard H. Meadow, Project Director, Harappa Archaeological Research Project and on materials contained in Omar Khan's website http://www.harappa.com supplied by Drs. J.M. Kenoyer and R.H. Meadow and others associated with the Harappa Archaeological Research Project. The URL of the BBC Online story is http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_334000/334517.stm On May 6, a follow-up story appeared in Newsweek Online. The URL is: http://newsweek.com/nw-srv/issue/19_99a/tnw/today/ps/ps02we_1.htm In addition, interviews were provided over the telephone from Harappa to a number of print journalists and two interviews were recorded and aired by different departments of the BBC. Upon review of the above websites after returning to the USA from Harappa, I (Meadow) have the following comments: The Newsweek story is basically a good representation of what was said. The BBC story is somewhat sensationalized by the first and last sentences but otherwise is basically sound. It is important to note that the graphic that is displayed as the lead item in the BBC Online story is not a 5500 year old sherd (Dr. David Whitehouse was alerted to this fact on 19 May). It is a sherd from the Harappan levels at Harappa dating to about 4300 years ago. The correct sherd PROBABLY dating somewhere between 3500 and 3300 BC can be found on Omar Khan's website as slide number 124. The URL is: http://www.harappa.com/indus2/124.html This sherd comes from nearly the lowest level of the Ravi Aspect of the Hakra Phase at Harappa (Period 1A: hereafter shortened to the "Ravi phase"). The date of 3300 to 3500 BC is an estimate based on currently available radiocarbon dates that do NOT come from contexts DIRECTLY associated with the sherd. 14C dates are in process for directly associated deposits and so the date of this sherd and of the beginning of the Ravi phase is subject to change. As noted in the Newsweek article, the importance of the material from Harappa lies not in it being the earliest anything. The importance lies in the long and continuous sequence of archaeological deposits including inscribed sherds that extends from the beginning of the Ravi phase, through the Kot Dijian phase, and into the Harappan phase, i.e., from sometime in the second half of the fourth millennium to middle of the third millennium BC. Additional Kot Dijian Phase inscribed material was recovered during the 1999 season at Harappa; Ravi phase deposits were not excavated in the 1999 season. In examining inscribed sherds it is important to distinguish between pre-firing and post-firing incisions. The former are often called "potters' marks"; the latter are sometimes called "graffiti" although that term is probably too informal for signs/symbols or series of signs/symbols that were deliberately incised on finished vessels after firing. Post-firing signs/symbols on pottery can be seen as examples of "spontaneous" inscriptions, to be distinguished from the inscriptions on Indus seals and "tablets" (sensu Parpola) that are likely to have been cut by individuals given templates by other (?"literate") individuals who commissioned the pieces. The "spontaneous" inscriptions begin in the Ravi phase and continue through the Kot Dijian into the Harappan. Examples can be seen on www.harappa.com. The development of particular signs can be followed even with the very small sample of material available to us today. A priority for future research at Harappa is to clear significantly larger areas of the Ravi, Kot Dijian, and earliest Harappan phase deposits in order to investigate further the development of signing and its transformation into the Indus script. Of interest to readers of this statement may be the rather useful article on early writing in the New York Times of 19 April by John Noble Wilford. The URL is: http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/040699sci-early-writing.html Also readers should be on the alert for an article on early writing to appear in National Geographic Magazine in the August 1999 issue. A principal consultant for that article is Prof. Jonathan Mark Kenoyer (Univ. of Wisconsin, Madison), co-Director and Field Director of the Harappa Archaeological Research Project and the person directly responsible for the excavation of the Ravi and Kot Dijian inscribed pieces. Further discussion and illustrations can be found in his recently published book: Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization, Oxford University Press, Karachi (and Oxford, New York, Delhi), 1998. The reader is also referred to articles by Meadow & Kenoyer and Kenoyer & Meadow scheduled to appear shortly in South Asian Archaeology 1997 (proceedings of the meeting of the European Association for South Asian Art and Archaeology held in Rome in 1997). These articles deal with aspects of writing at Harappa and with the Ravi phase and will be published by the Instituto Italiano per l'Africa e l'Oriente (IsIAO), via Merulana 248, 00185 Rome, Italy. The Harappa Archaeological Research Project (HARP) is directed by Richard H. Meadow (Project Director), J. Mark Kenoyer (co-Project and Field Director), and Rita P. Wright (Assistant Project Director and Director of the Beas Survey). HARP is carried out in collaboration with the Department of Archaeology and Museums, Government of Pakistan, with the assistance of professionals and students from Pakistan and USA as well as individuals from Japan, Canada, Sweden, and Italy. The project is currently funded by grants to members of HARP from the National Endowment for the Humanities, the Kress Foundation, the American School of Prehistoric Research, the Peabody Museum of Harvard University, the University of Wisconsin, New York University, and private donors. Past support has come from the National Geographic Society, the National Science Foundation, and the Wenner-Gren Foundation. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 7315 bytes Desc: not available URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 23:28:11 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 16:28:11 -0700 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049408.23782.16568080332201749595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Sujatha, I am highly skeptical that Thomas ever visited India. Quickly browsed thru' the web page given; Erected by a pious Christian, Is he from the Syrian church. Highly religious in contents. It has some problems, I believe. Eg., a) He talks of *Pandya empire (Andhra Pradesh)*!!!. At another place, Pandhyas! b) About Manikka Vachakar, a sorceror visiting Kollam and saying they do not know who this is. (It may be a reference to 9th century(?) Tamil Saint) c) About Thomas visiting Daughter of Cheraman Perumal, the King. (Perumal dynasty rises much later; We have tamil brahmi inscriptions and sangam texts for the list of Kerala Kings; Recently, I. Mahadevan has discovered two Tamil brahmi inscriptions, the earliest inscriptions of Kerala. No Perumals then) d) In 300+AD, a copper plate grant to Syrians is talked about; (72 honors given to Christians; The names of honors, this system - belongs to Nayak era, Definitely not to 300+ A.D) (Would love to see the Copperplates or the text from it; It will be highly important because it comes from Kalabhra interrugnam era) e) and so on. I understand that I am not comprehensive enough; It must take an amount of time which I can't afford. But a) the myth of Thomas getting killed in Madras is modern, post 16th century AD. Portugse? Any earlier source reference? b) Christians might have visited Kerala pre-10th century; We have grants to Jews from Chera Ay kings in 9th century. Tamil texts, inscriptions, - nothing about Thomas. Nambudiris, acc. to historians, arrive in Kerala from 5th century AD. Very anachronostic for Thomas to make Nambudiris into Syrian Christians. Regards, N. Ganesan PS: I can't write more on this since I do not have access to books on the history of Nestorian church. So, excuse me. From: Stephens Please refer to Prof. Ninan's page on the History of Christianity in Kerala at www.acns.com/~mm9n/Malankara/0.htm Sujatha ----- Original Message ----- > Vishal asks: > >Are the claims of the St Thomas Christians false? > > Yes. There is no ancient corroborating material > from the Christendom to say that Thomas landed > on the West coast or he was martyred in St. Thomas mount; > Largely Portugese era stories. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 26 00:42:18 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 17:42:18 -0700 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049412.23782.18223367679330280764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< St. Thomas christians of India are talked about in early Christian documents at least from about 350 A.D and the ties betweent the Indian church and the Persian church are a established fact based on documentation from the period 350 A.D. or so. I will try to get some more specific info on this. This still doesn't establish St. Thomas's visit, but at least the advent of Christianity in India in the first few hundred centuries A.D. >>> Pl. inform us of a university level publication talking of the connection between Persian and Indian churches in 4th century AD. Possible, but where it is written?? >The translation of the copper plates can be found at >www.acns.com/~mm9n/Malankara/4.httm Which century copper plates? Will be grateful for the 4th century grant to Christians (I very much doubt this; the honors quoted are usually Vijayanagar or later) and the grant to jews (This I have seen long ago). Regards. >I do not have access to the actual texts, but am trying to get hold of at >least a photograph. Will let you know when I succeed. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From jpstephen at HOME.COM Tue May 25 21:53:49 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 17:53:49 -0400 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049398.23782.4764828061739196470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> After this training they officiated as priests known as "Kamma > Brahmalu" (Kamma Brahmins) at the births, marriages and deaths of those > kamma families which chose to use their services - not all kamma families > made this choice. << This reminds me of a maestri who used to work for Bayer in Salem, Tamilnadu many years ago. I believe he belonged to the so called "scheduled caste" and was in charge of bringing labourers from his village to the warehouse. He was called gounder by his fellow villagers, but he did not belong to the actual "gounder" community of coimbatore/salem area. He used to officiate in his village temple and ceremonies, he was also called poojari by his peers. I know this because his job also included taking me to school everyday and we used to chat enroute. I had earlier posted a question asking for the earliest reference of Caucasians as "whites" in English/European literature. The reason for that question was if this is a recent development of say 1000 years or so, then arriving at the conclusion that the Vedas attributed "white" to the Aryans would seem far fetched. In fact, the day I realised that the Caucasians were called "white", I was stupefied because I couldn't relate the colour white to the skin colour of Caucasians, it was more like pink or some other colour. Sujatha :) From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 26 00:58:16 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 17:58:16 -0700 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049414.23782.7487595808583431888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the history of Christianity in India, a) What are the inscription, copper plates and their dates mentioning Christianity? b) Where is the earliest Church? Its date? c) Early artifacts decidedly of Christian religion. c) Names of Sanskrit and Tamil texts mentioning Christianity? d) Given that Christianity is so old in Kerala, why no Bible either in Tamil, Malayalam, Sanskrit until British rule in 19th century? Regards. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From rajarshi at SMGINC.COM Tue May 25 16:59:57 1999 From: rajarshi at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 17:59:57 +0100 Subject: viSNukuNDins Message-ID: <161227049376.23782.5340604544162797104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This may be unrelated: I have heard a story about the history of certain brahmins of bengal ( banerjee, chaterjee etc..... ) who migrtated to bengal from kanyakubja ( eastern UP )on the invitation of ballal sen who is said to have hailed from karnataka. I don?t know how authentic this info is. Ballal sen was a ruler from the sen dynasty which overthrew the Palas. I have met several kannadigas with the last name of ballal and wondered about their connection to the sen rulers of bengal. Are they related to the vEl clan or the chalukyas as mentioned in this thread? I am aware of place and people names of karnataka which end begin with vEL belur, belagudu .... etc Also, as pointed out by another list member kundu is the last name for some bengali brahmins , they might have an interesting history... From jpstephen at HOME.COM Tue May 25 22:24:17 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 18:24:17 -0400 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049403.23782.14690819651462236823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please refer to Prof. Ninan's page on the History of Christianity in Kerala at www.acns.com/~mm9n/Malankara/0.htm Sujatha ----- Original Message ----- From: N. Ganesan To: Sent: 24 May, 1999 10:21 PM Subject: Re: Nambudiris > Vishal asks: > >Are the claims of the St Thomas Christians false? > > Yes. There is no ancient corroborating material > from the Christendom to say that Thomas landed > on the West coast or he was martyred in St. Thomas mount; > Largely Portugese era stories. > > Regards. > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 25 19:35:11 1999 From: ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM (Asha Naidu) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 19:35:11 +0000 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049387.23782.3355267443459386464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In some parts of Andhra Pradesh, members of the brahmin community are dark in colour(i.e. dark complexioned in comparison to the usually fairer skin colour common among Indian brahmins). In my community (kammas - a sudra community) they are referred to as "nalla brahmalu"(black brahmins). I believe they may be representative of ancient incorporations and inclusions of darker non-brahmins into the brahmin community. They are fully accepted as Brahmins. I believe that this suggests that the caste system may not have always been inflexible. Perhaps other list memebrs from Andhra may throw more light on the matter. Interestingly, in the last century among some members of the Kamma community in coastal Andhra Pradesh, anti - brahmin rebellion took the form of Kamma men training as Hindu priests!! I am not sure how exactly they obtained this training. After this training they officiated as priests known as "Kamma Brahmalu" (Kamma Brahmins) at the births, marriages and deaths of those kamma families which chose to use their services - not all kamma families made this choice. A few people in my family had their weddings performed by Kamma Brahmins! Nowadays there are hardly any Kamma Brahmins left as the priestly profession is not lucrative. I am acquainted with a number of Andhra Brahmin families, who out of conviction educated (or paid for the western education of sudras - including some people I know) sudras. Many such Brahmin families have fought against casteism and set up schools and colleges that accept and educate all applicants (including Muslims and Sudras) irrespective of caste. For example the Madapati Hanumantha Rao school in Hyderabad. The point I am trying to make, is that the history of varna and jati may have always been complicated and the picture is constantly changing. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From jpstephen at HOME.COM Wed May 26 00:12:51 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 20:12:51 -0400 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049410.23782.4978091852019140813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan, Yes, Prof. Ninan is a Syrian Christian. Some references to St.Thomas's visit to India in the Middle Eastern/Greek texts can be found at www.acns.com/~mm9n/Malankara/3.htm St. Thomas christians of India are talked about in early Christian documents at least from about 350 A.D and the ties betweent the Indian church and the Persian church are a established fact based on documentation from the period 350 A.D. or so. I will try to get some more specific info on this. This still doesn't establish St. Thomas's visit, but at least the advent of Christianity in India in the first few hundred centuries A.D. The translation of the copper plates can be found at www.acns.com/~mm9n/Malankara/4.httm I do not have access to the actual texts, but am trying to get hold of at least a photograph. Will let you know when I succeed. Regards, Sujatha From jpstephen at HOME.COM Wed May 26 01:54:57 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 21:54:57 -0400 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049416.23782.18134048096399601231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan, What I am refering to are historical and really old documents (or fragments of them) and I will get back to you as soon as I can lay my hands on a copy or point you in the right directions. Regards, Sujatha > <<< > St. Thomas christians of India are talked about in early Christian > documents at least from about 350 A.D and the ties betweent the Indian > church and the Persian church are a established fact based on > documentation from the period 350 A.D. or so. I will try to get some > more specific info on this. This still doesn't establish St. Thomas's > visit, but at least the advent of Christianity in India in the first > few hundred centuries A.D. > > Pl. inform us of a university level publication talking of > the connection between Persian and Indian churches in 4th century AD. > Possible, but where it is written?? From kekai at JPS.NET Wed May 26 05:36:11 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 22:36:11 -0700 Subject: Punjab and Aryavarta Message-ID: <161227049378.23782.14228486455414225627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > When the Vedic Aryans moved further East into modern U.P., Aryavarta > gets defined. Which Sanskrit texts downgrade the present Punjab area > (Pakistan, India) as the land of Mlecchas and Non-Aryans? Is it in Manu? > What about Puranas? Did this occur after Hunas, Shakas etc., invaded > the Punjab and West India? > Even in the Rgveda, much of the Punjab was 'Dasa' territory. The 'Aryan' land is around modern Haryana, the same region later inhabited by the Kurus of the Mahabharata. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT Tue May 25 22:07:28 1999 From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 23:07:28 +0100 Subject: ParashurAma kShetra In-Reply-To: <374ACD0B.EBD@erols.com> Message-ID: <161227049400.23782.7819281674817499660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 0000,0000,0000On 25 May 99, at 12:17, B.N.Hebbar wrote:0100,0100,0100 7F00,0000,0000> The mythology of ParashurAma is found in the following sources: > 1. Vana and Shanti parvas of the MBH 2. Matsya PurANa chaps > 42-44 3. the entire SahyAdri KANDa of the SkAnda PurANa (main > source) 0000,0000,0000Scarcely anything on Parazuraama is to be found in the above referenced Matsya chapters, as they (43-44) are devoted to the story of Kaartaviiryaarjuna, and the Bhaargava is only passingly mentioned (43, 41-44) in that connection.7F00,0000,0000 0100,0100,0100Major puranic sources for Parazuraama mythology: - ViSNudharmottara PuraaNa 1, 23-73 (51 chapters) - BrahmaaNDa PuraaNa 3, 21-58 (28 chapters) - Brahmavaivarta PuraaNa 3, 24-46 (23 chapters) 7F00,0000,0000> The ParashurAma kShetra is that strip of land along the West > Coast of India which is located between the Western GhATs on the > east and the Arabian Sea on the west. According to one version, > it stretches from NAsik in the North to KankyAkumArI in the > South. According to another version, it stretches from GokarNa in > the north to Trivandrum in the south. Apart from the versions narrated in the Sahyaadri KhaNDa of the Skanda PuraaNa, the story of Parazuraama reclaiming coastal land from the sea is found in BrahmaaNDa 57-58: Sagara's 60,000 sons looking for the missing azvamedha horse cause the flooding of GokarNa and other places, the former inhabitants seek Parazuraama's assistance, who threatens VaruNa with his bow and consecrated arrow and compels him to restore back the submerged land. Regards, ---------------------------- Paolo Magnone Catholic University of Milan pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 2017 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed May 26 03:40:35 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 25 May 99 23:40:35 -0400 Subject: Nambudiris Message-ID: <161227049417.23782.8068938746943337896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/25/99 7:40:32 PM Central Daylight Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Pl. inform us of a university level publication talking of > the connection between Persian and Indian churches in 4th century AD. > Possible, but where it is written?? See the following book for details on Kerala-Persia/Syria Christian connections. Saints, goddesses, and kings : Muslims and Christians in South Indian Society, 1700-1900. / Bayly, Susan / Cambridge (England) / 1989 DS 484.4 B39 1989 > >The translation of the copper plates can be found at > >www.acns.com/~mm9n/Malankara/4.httm > > Which century copper plates? Will be grateful for the > 4th century grant to Christians (I very much doubt this; > the honors quoted are usually Vijayanagar or later) > and the grant to jews (This I have seen long ago). > See the following book for photos and translation of two sets of copper plates at the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church in Kottayam. A.C. Burnell dated them in the 8th and 9th centuries AD well before Vijayanagar period. P. Shangoonny Menon's date was 3rd century. Kookel Kelu Nair dated it in the 4th century AD. The Syrian Christians of Kerala. / Pothan, S. G., 1905- / New York / 1963 275.48 P848S The following book by a Dravidian linguist and may be the earliest Dravidian linguist of Indian origin at University of Pennsylvania gives the text of the plates and dates them to the end of the ninth century AD. Interestingly one of them mentions a dignitary named vELkula cuntaran2 (cuntaran2 of the vEL kula) Evolution of Malayalam. / Sekhar, Anantaramayyar Chandra / Poona / 1953 494.812 SE47E Claiming Nambudiri and Nair origin by Syrian Christians may not be believable. But there can be no doubt about the presence of Christians in Kerala for more than thousand years. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed May 26 04:17:52 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 00:17:52 -0400 Subject: Image worship and bhakti Message-ID: <161227049419.23782.14135798478512445960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To understand the origins of image worship/localization of divinity, it is good to consult the following Tamil-related references. Tamil Temple Myths by David Shulman On the Themes of Divine Immanence and Localization by Rajam Ramamurti in the journal of Tamil University, Tanjavur. My Indology posting "Tantrism and the Concept of Image in Tamil/Dravidian" dated Sun, 29 Jun 1997. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed May 26 04:32:48 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 00:32:48 -0400 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049421.23782.13382985423128954778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/25/99 3:26:13 AM Central Daylight Time, harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > A Gujerati friend who learnt sanskrit in high school in India pronounces > word final short "a" so short as to be almost imperceptable. In the modern > grammars written in english short "a" is distinguished from long "a" both in > quality and length but I don't see any mention that short "a" is pronounced > any differently when word final than when word internal. The thread "Questions on word-final vowels in Sanskrit" started on Wed, 25 Nov 1998 may be of use to you. The history of borrowed words in Tamil suggests this phenomenon in Sanskrit may have been in existence for a long time. Regards S. Palaniappan From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue May 25 22:47:34 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 00:47:34 +0200 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049404.23782.4385284088100652896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I had earlier posted a question asking for the earliest reference of > Caucasians as "whites" in English/European literature. The reason for that > question was if this is a recent development of say 1000 years or so, then > arriving at the conclusion that the Vedas attributed "white" to the Aryans > would seem far fetched. In fact, the day I realised that the Caucasians were > called "white", I was stupefied because I couldn't relate the colour white > to the skin colour of Caucasians, it was more like pink or some other > colour. > > Sujatha :) This is highly inappropriate but I've just GOT to tell my missionary joke. There was a missionary in Africa who one day asked one of his black parishioners the fatal question: "Tell me, what do you Africans REALLY think of us whites?" The African answered: "Well, to be quite frank with you, you remind us of peeled bananas". Anyone for bananas? Lars Martin Fosse From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 26 13:14:26 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 06:14:26 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049430.23782.9183417999314118108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let us take, for instance, "gaNezvara". Tamil naturalizes it as "gaNezvaran" (to be exact, "kaNEcuvaran"). In the IA area, it is "gaNezvar". So: Does the "iizvara" becoming "iizvar" in North India due to the disappearance of word-final "a" sound in Sanskrit? At the same time, in South India, "iizvara" is naturalized as "iizvaran". May be beacuse, southerners perceived the word-final "a" in Sanskrit as full "a". Comments welcome. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From A.Soar at MACMILLAN.CO.UK Wed May 26 07:03:38 1999 From: A.Soar at MACMILLAN.CO.UK (Soar Adrian) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 08:03:38 +0100 Subject: Desubscription Message-ID: <161227049425.23782.9538092986285520472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How do I desubscribe? -- This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Macmillan Publishers Limited cannot accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 26 15:23:17 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 08:23:17 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049436.23782.7304990534177887539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The south had a full word-final "a", it seems. Probably why modern personal names differ a little between north and south. -------------------------------------------- north | south --------------------------------------------- shiv shivan narayan narayanan ganesh ganeshan ram raman lakshman lakshmanan gopal gopalan and so on. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Wed May 26 13:50:43 1999 From: kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal R. Adhikary) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 08:50:43 -0500 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049432.23782.7638934758317205357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This discussion started with 'Varna', so we got many responses as to whether it literally means skin color or it has little to do with it. I would appreciate if some of you could give your opinion on how and when the untouchable category came into existence. Were there untouchables since the inception of the Varna scheme? Gratefully, Kamal >A notable example of Sudras being helped by Brahmins is that of the present >Indian President. His Brahmin teacher defied the prevelant norms in those >days to educate him with his personal funds. > >Regards > >Vishal > > >----Original Message Follows---- >From: Stephens >Subject: Re: varna and jati >Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:53:49 -0400 > >After this training they officiated as priests known as "Kamma > > Brahmalu" (Kamma Brahmins) at the births, marriages and deaths of those > > kamma families which chose to use their services - not all kamma families > > made this choice. << > >This reminds me of a maestri who used to work for Bayer in Salem, Tamilnadu >many years ago. I believe he belonged to the so called "scheduled caste" and >was in charge of bringing labourers from his village to the warehouse. He >was called gounder by his fellow villagers, but he did not belong to the >actual "gounder" community of coimbatore/salem area. He used to officiate in >his village temple and ceremonies, he was also called poojari by his peers. >I know this because his job also included taking me to school everyday and >we used to chat enroute. > >I had earlier posted a question asking for the earliest reference of >Caucasians as "whites" in English/European literature. The reason for that >question was if this is a recent development of say 1000 years or so, then >arriving at the conclusion that the Vedas attributed "white" to the Aryans >would seem far fetched. In fact, the day I realised that the Caucasians were >called "white", I was stupefied because I couldn't relate the colour white >to the skin colour of Caucasians, it was more like pink or some other >colour. > >Sujatha :) > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed May 26 16:02:56 1999 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 09:02:56 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit In-Reply-To: <19990526152317.21706.rocketmail@web305.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227049438.23782.16962195772024724490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Its somewhat difficult to make sweeping statements like the one below... my parents are from Karnataka, my name is "chandan", my father's name "nArAyaN", my uncle's name "ranganAth", etc. We are very much "from the South". I think your question has to do with the tendency to shorten schwa (saMvRta a) to zero word finally, thats all. See pANini on saMvRta and vivRta. This schwa deletion is typologically common. chandan chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu On Wed, 26 May 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > The south had a full word-final "a", it seems. > Probably why modern personal names differ a little > between north and south. > > -------------------------------------------- > north | south > --------------------------------------------- > shiv shivan > narayan narayanan > ganesh ganeshan > ram raman > lakshman lakshmanan > gopal gopalan > > and so on. > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 26 16:13:25 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 09:13:25 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049440.23782.17573065952436124478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I really meant Tamil Nadu and Kerala; You might have noticed a tendency among Karnataka and A.P. high classes to disassociate themselves from things Dravidian. All pervading Sanskrit impact in Karnataka and A.P. may be the reason why word-final "a"s are dealt the same way as the North. Regards. --- "Chandan R. Narayan" wrote: > Its somewhat difficult to make sweeping statements like the one below... > my parents are from Karnataka, my name is "chandan", my father's name > "nArAyaN", my uncle's name "ranganAth", etc. We are very much "from the > South". > I think your question has to do with the tendency to shorten schwa > (saMvRta a) to zero word finally, thats all. See pANini on saMvRta and > vivRta. This schwa deletion is typologically common. > chandan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed May 26 16:40:16 1999 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 09:40:16 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit In-Reply-To: <19990526161325.28509.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227049441.23782.11924379874187465680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Connected to this issue of schwa deletion is the South Indian (sweeping statement) tendency to give an "open" quality to word-final "a". Hence rAma often sounds like rAmA, kRSNa like kRSNA, etc. Sanskrit phonemic schwa is often confused, by South Indians, with low-front "a". For more on the pronunciation of Sanskrit see the wonderful article by SK Chatterjee in the PAThak memorial volume (BORI). Chatterjee discusses the "standard" pronunciation reflecting a healthy medium between the north Indian and south Indian as represented by that of Maharashtrian paNDita-s in Benares. chandan chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu On Wed, 26 May 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > I really meant Tamil Nadu and Kerala; You might have noticed > a tendency among Karnataka and A.P. high classes to disassociate themselves > from things Dravidian. All pervading Sanskrit impact in Karnataka > and A.P. may be the reason why word-final "a"s are dealt the same > way as the North. > > Regards. > > --- "Chandan R. Narayan" wrote: > > Its somewhat difficult to make sweeping statements like the one below... > > my parents are from Karnataka, my name is "chandan", my father's name > > "nArAyaN", my uncle's name "ranganAth", etc. We are very much "from the > > South". > > I think your question has to do with the tendency to shorten schwa > > (saMvRta a) to zero word finally, thats all. See pANini on saMvRta and > > vivRta. This schwa deletion is typologically common. > > chandan > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Wed May 26 16:49:17 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 09:49:17 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049443.23782.15373719226946726112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Maybe Madhuresan should have taken care to specify that these mappings apply for naming conventions before "modernization" due to influence from Hindi or the northern culture. Wouldn't the Kannada names have been narAyaNa, ranganAthA etc., until a few generations ago? I have also been curious about the "age" of names such as anil, sunil among kannadigas. Were these popular say till the end of the last century? For example, even in tamil nadu quite a few people are named "Chandrasekar" without the -an suffix and even when not so named, they are adressed without the "-an" suffix. > -----Original Message----- > From: Chandan R. Narayan [mailto:cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 12:03 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit > > > Its somewhat difficult to make sweeping statements like the > one below... > my parents are from Karnataka, my name is "chandan", my father's name > "nArAyaN", my uncle's name "ranganAth", etc. We are very much > "from the > South". >...........> > > > On Wed, 26 May 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > > The south had a full word-final "a", it seems. > > Probably why modern personal names differ a little > > between north and south. > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > north | south > > --------------------------------------------- > > shiv shivan > > narayan narayanan > > ganesh ganeshan .............. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed May 26 08:56:44 1999 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 09:56:44 +0100 Subject: Christianity in India (was: Nambudiris) In-Reply-To: <19990526004219.25223.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049427.23782.10083078353966386031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ><<< >St. Thomas christians of India are talked about in early Christian >documents at least from about 350 A.D and the ties betweent the Indian >church and the Persian church are a established fact based on >documentation from the period 350 A.D. or so. I will try to get some >more specific info on this. This still doesn't establish St. Thomas's >visit, but at least the advent of Christianity in India in the first > few hundred centuries A.D. >>>> > > Pl. inform us of a university level publication talking of >the connection between Persian and Indian churches in 4th century AD. >Possible, but where it is written?? > Perhaps the following publication will help (I have not seen the book yet, but I know Klimkeit as a reliable scholar): Ian Gillman and Hans-Joachim Klimkeit: Christians in Asia before 1500. Richmond, Surrey: Curzon Press, 1998. G.v.Simson From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 26 16:57:43 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 09:57:43 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049445.23782.3772951496853623211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > --- "Chandan R. Narayan" wrote: > > Its somewhat difficult to make sweeping statements like the one below... > > my parents are from Karnataka, my name is "chandan", my father's name > > "nArAyaN", my uncle's name "ranganAth", etc. We are very much "from the > > South". > > I think your question has to do with the tendency to shorten schwa > > (saMvRta a) to zero word finally, thats all. See pANini on saMvRta and > > vivRta. This schwa deletion is typologically common. > > chandan If your ancesters, some generations ago, did not migrate from Tamil Nadu, the corresponding names would be: chandanan, nArAyaNan, ranganAthan. Probably Chandan, Narayan, Ranganath are from the Northern pattern. Many thanks for SKC reference, SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed May 26 09:52:15 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 10:52:15 +0100 Subject: Desubscription In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049428.23782.4424624410568639167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 26 May 1999, Soar Adrian wrote: > How do I desubscribe? Send "unsub indology" to "listserv at liverpool.ac.uk -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 26 18:02:21 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 11:02:21 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049447.23782.2856263163129195938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is pronounced as "rAm" from a Hindi text is written identically in a Sanskrit text though it is read as "rAma" in Sanskrit. This general rule is true, say, for the case of "kannaD" while reading in Hindi whereas it is "kannaDa" in Sanskrit as fas as Nagari writing goes. Does this explain why word-final "a"s are cut out in Hindi? Thanks, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed May 26 18:19:14 1999 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 11:19:14 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit In-Reply-To: <19990526180221.52962.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049450.23782.201030353393294661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan, we should not concern ourselves with orthography here. Nagari representations would be the same in Skt and Hindi. What we are dealing with is a sound change that is very common word-finally and medially. It is not a matter of what pronunciation is correct, rather an example of variation. For example, Prof. RK Sharma was telling me about his area in Bihar and the kS>kkh change. He mentioned a prAtiSAkhya text that describes this very change. THe notion that Sanskrit pronunciation does not change, or has not changed is flawed. PANini described...at some point in time this became prescription. It is however, difficult to thwart natural sound changes. As far as naming conventions go, deity epithetic names, like any other names, are subject to trends. My parents named me chandan, but qualified it with my "Godly" middle name "rAghava" (with final "a" :). My uncles, grandfathers, etc. all have god names...its just an example of what's "en vogue" thats all. chandan chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu On Wed, 26 May 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > What is pronounced as "rAm" from a Hindi text is written identically > in a Sanskrit text though it is read as "rAma" in Sanskrit. > This general rule is true, say, for the case of "kannaD" while > reading in Hindi whereas it is "kannaDa" in Sanskrit > as fas as Nagari writing goes. > > Does this explain why word-final "a"s are cut out in > Hindi? > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 26 21:43:45 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 14:43:45 -0700 Subject: Living and Dead Systems Message-ID: <161227049454.23782.12302699697262297654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I should think that Agehananda Bharati's "pizza effect" will take care of >this. Tibetan Vajrayana will impact Indian society through the fame and >following it has amassed in the West. May be. But from what I've observed, the modernists in Indian society, though easily impressed with all things "Western", have a tendency to enhance their ethnic values with new ideas, rather than adopt the new ideas in toto. And where it truly matters they generally abide by the tradition. This can be observed in the great popularity of 'arranged' marriages to this date in the society. They might probably flock to a gathering addressed by Richard Gere just because it is the hip thing to do, but for true religious need, they would return to Lord Ganesha. And there's nothing that Buddhism can offer, that mainstream Hinduism doesn't already have. For plain bhakti, you've the temples, bajans etc For more spiritual practices, meditation, yoga etc there're so many genuine gurus on hand to help. For philosophy, there's always the traditional mathams, the neo-VedAntist groups like Ramakrishna Mutt etc And from what I observed on television channels in Madras, almost the entire morning schedule is dominated by topics spiritual. Even a newspaper as Western oriented as the Times of India carries a daily column called Sacred Space - carrying quotes from the VedA to the Buddhist SutrAs! Indigenous spirituality is definitely on the rise. And for color and festivities, Buddhism can hardly match Hinduism. Hinduism has become an all round package - a way of life - evolved over the ages to meet the cultural, civilizational and religious needs of the people. At this point in time, it would be very difficult - nay, impossible - for any religion to confront, let alone upstage Hinduism in BhArath. >By the way, the Mahabodhi society is trying to promote dialogue/debate >between Buddhists and Advaita Vedantins. I've been to their unit in Madras and know the bhikshu quite well. They teach the dhamma, hold vipAsana sessions etc They attract followers from the Dalits and a few from the Tamil elite 'disappointed' in 'brAhmanical' Hinduism. Debate with foreigners? Some time back, a meeting organized by some Japanese gurus to meet with Indian gurus. The present ShankarAchArya of Kanchi - Jayendra Saraswati, was also one of those who attended. And from what I remember he didn't have anything pleasant to say about the affair! There was just an attitude of tolerance. No, I feel that there'll be debate with the traditionalists only if the new comers try to proselytize from the upper classes, which I anyhow think, will not find much success. And even if such a debate arises, I think it'll be only with fellow countrymen and not foreigners. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Wed May 26 03:46:12 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 14:46:12 +1100 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049423.23782.7974984744594867297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> pANini on this is cited by Coulson (p.5 note 2) Michael Coulson. Sanskrit : an introduciton to the classical language. 2nd. ed. 1992. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 26 23:10:44 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 16:10:44 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049457.23782.16946901386198270277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I believe they may be representative of ancient incorporations and >inclusions of darker non-brahmins into the brahmin community. I find quite a few arguments on this list arguing in this vein. Brahmins have to be fair and non brahmins (non dvijas) dark. This I think is totally absurd. Skin complexion has go to do more with climatic conditions than any racial origin. For eg : in Kerala, even the non-brahmins - the so called drAvidians - the Menons, Nairs, Nambiars - are quite fair complexioned. And I've even seen some Namboodiris not quite so fair! I would safely rule out any argument of inter caste marriages, as the Namboodiris are amongst the most casteist brahmins in BhArath. >I am acquainted with a number of Andhra Brahmin families, who out of >conviction educated (or paid for the western education of sudras - >including some people I know) sudras. Many such Brahmin families have >fought against casteism and set up schools and colleges that accept and >educate all applicants (including Muslims and Sudras) irrespective of >caste. For example the Madapati Hanumantha Rao school in Hyderabad. KA Nilakanta Shastri, in his History of South India, mentions that it was a brahmin who first fought in court, for the rights of the untouchables to enter temples. Even the missile man of India today, Dr Abdul Kalam, says that it was the father of a brahmin friend who helped him to study further. I personally think that the caste system has been conveniently used by politicians to totally distort the reason for the plight of the lower castes in the society. Discrimination is of two types : 1. Social and 2. Economic. It's true that the brahmins were very caste conscious. They looked down on the lower castes. They didn't think they were worthy enough for Vedic learning or sometimes even to enter temples. Whether this attitude stemmed from following an ancient tradition or whether it was due to any malicious intent needs further study. But it is clear that their discrimination is of the first category. But this doesn't mean they economically exploited the lower castes. Forbidden from working, most of the brahmins themselves were pretty poor and only during the time of the British did they assume official positions to run the administrative services of the Government. Exploitation if any, would have been done by those who held the land - eg : Reddys in Andhra, Thevars in Tamil Nadu, the present land owning classes in Bihar etc. Early Tamil texts also speak of the division of the society into four castes, even before the advent of the brahmin into the Southern lands. And even today it is these communities which control the political power in their respective regions. Needless to say the caste system was very convenient for them to exploit the lower classes. And when the time came, they made scapegoats of the brahmins, dumping the entire responsibility on them. Even recently in an interview, a dalit leader, bitterly complained against the present ruling classes in Tamil Nadu for being vicious and discriminatory against his society. And he went to the extent of saying, even the brahmins never discriminated against his society so badly! _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Wed May 26 20:25:37 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 16:25:37 -0400 Subject: Pronunciation of short a Message-ID: <161227049452.23782.15667803459967501161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Messrs. Ganesan, Madhuresan, Chandrasekharan and Narayan: Just to add my 2 cents worth to your very insightful discussions on the issue to the pronunciation of the short "a" in Sanskrit and the vernacular Indian tongues, we might want to consider Sinhala. The Sinhalese are the only people I have seen pronounce the short "a" distinctly either without unwarrantedly elongating it, suffixing it or cutting it short (as though there is a halant) as the North-Indians do. In short, you will hear them pronounce the word "Arjuna" as "Arjuna" and not as "ArjunA", "Arjunan" or "Arjun". Perhaps, the Sinhalas are the only "Northern Indic" peoples who are truly free of the modern "Hindi" influence which reaches down (as one of you pointed out) well into the Andhra and Karnatak regions. In fact, two decades ago when I learnt Pali under the late Venerable Dr. PiyAnanda MahAthero (a Sinhalese monk), the Venerable would laugh at the the Indian prounuciation of the final positioned Sanskrit visarga. For example, the Indian tendency is to pronounce "rAmaH" as "rAmaHa". Ven. PiyAnanda would say, why? and laugh. Prounounce it as exactly as it is "rAmaH" and nothing more. Next time, hear the Sinhalese pronounce Sanskrit words. In fact, just hear the Sinhalese speak their own language, the short "a" is very clearly audible and it is so pleasing to the ear. It gives the whole language a certain musical lilt which some of our beautiful Indian languages seem to have lost because of unnecessary elongation or equally bad, the North-Indian cutting short. I have praised the Sinhalas in front of a whole panapoly of Tamilian savants. I only hope I come out of this one unscathed and in one piece! Regards to all, B.N.Hebbar From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Wed May 26 12:56:27 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 16:56:27 +0400 Subject: Punjab and Aryavarta Message-ID: <161227049434.23782.10319727559576193350.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Wed May 26 16:21:42 MSD 1999 The process of alienation of the North-west began in the Vedic period (after the Rgveda). There is a chant in the Atharvaveda (5.22) which invites malary (takman) to go to the outlying (and probably Non-Vedic, Non-orthodox) regions: Anga and Magadha in the East, the countries of the gandhAras, mahAvRSas, munjavantas and bAlhIkas - in the North-West (bAlhIkas/bAhlIkas of the Punjab; connection with Balkh in Bactria - first suggested by Lassen - is impossible because *Balkh* is the late [Middle Iranian] development of *Baxthri). BaudhAyAna dharma sUtra (about 5th century BCE) discouraged travels in the land of the AraTTas (Punjab) and recommended to perform prayazcitta on the return from this "unclean" country. So the alienation began before the coming of the Greeks, Scythians and other Western mlecchas. It was due probably to the Iranian influence in the region and to the revival of the Late Harappan cultural heritage. The classical description of the barbaric customs of AraTTas/bAhlIkas and other peoples of the Punjab, including madras and sindhu-sauvIras, see in the MahAbhArata, VIII.30. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 00:11:04 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 17:11:04 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049459.23782.17406955702852413353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >racial origin. For eg : in Kerala, even the non-brahmins - the so called >drAvidians - the Menons, Nairs, Nambiars - are quite fair complexioned. And >I've even seen some Namboodiris not quite so fair! I would safely rule out >any argument of inter caste marriages, as the Namboodiris are amongst the >most casteist brahmins in BhArath. Bad example for the point you are making. The non-Brahmin castes in Kerala have substantial Brahmin genetic heritage, through Kerala's unique social setup. Among Nambudiri families, the tradition was that only the eldest son married a Nambudiri girl, while the younger sons married (or had 'sambandham' with, to use Keralite terminology) women of other castes. The children of these marriages were considered to belong to the mother's caste. One would think that in this day and age, people would be more aware of general scientific thought, and on this list, with anthropology too. It is surprising, the frequency with which caste and race are confused with each other. The concept of 'race' based on such a superficial (literally) phenotypic characteristic like skin color is quite outmoded, except in discussions of social prejudice in countries like the USA and South Africa. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 02:34:43 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 19:34:43 -0700 Subject: Chruch of St. Thomas and Archaeology Message-ID: <161227049463.23782.3893972677299684660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Langston, An extensive account of the history of St. Thomas Christians and the state of Archaeological findings of a German Team in the Church of St. Thomas etc. is contained in the book "The Myth of St. Thomas and the Mylapore Shiva Temple" by Ishwar Sharan; Published by 'Voice of India', Delhi A brief (yet highly biased--unnecessarily downplaying the academic content of the book) is available at http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/bookstore/bookrev/tmostatm.html The book can be purchased for $3.00 (unbelievable!) by 1. sending an email to sales at swordoftruth.com 2. Faxing a request to Mr. A. Ghosh (the American distributor) at 1-713-778-0960 or 3. By writing to A. Ghosh (Publisher); P. O. Box 631048; Houston, TX 77263 I read an older edition of the book (the new edition is more than twice the size) but to summarize 1. The author quotes some Saivite Tamil saints dating back to 9th Cent. to suggest the possibility that the site was oiinally occuppied by a temple hallowed by the Nayanars 2. He summarizes the findings of a German Archaeology team - they found that the Church etc. do not predate the arrival of Portuguese in the region and that embedded in the walls are icons of an erstwhile Jaina temple 3. The author documents the history of St. Thomas Christians and states that they derive their name from Thomas of Canaai- leader of a group of Nestorian Christians who fled persuecution in Persia (not sure about this) around 350 C.E. The latest edition (I just browsed through it at a bookshop) reproduces the detailed correspondence between him and the Church, other individuals (like a monk of the Ramakrishna Mission at Chennai) debating the issue. I might also mention that I put the question about St. Thomas having visited India to a friend and a former colleague of mine (he has a graduate degree each in Church History and Theology and is currently pursuing a PhD. in Church History at a Seminary at Kentucky). He was emphatic that St. Thomas never visited India and pointed out that 6 places outside India are reputed to be his sepulchres!! Best regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: robert langston Subject: Re: Nambudiris Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 00:49:34 EDT Dear Dr. Ganesan and Indologists, Next door to the rectory, out behind the Church of St. Thomas in Chennai, is a display of artifacts, primitive tools, grave markers, etc. claimed to come from the settlement of St. Thomas himself. Does anyone know if there has been any serious attempt to identify these artifacts and determine their origin? are they fakes? Thanks, Robert Langston >Vishal asks: >>Are the claims of the St Thomas Christians false? > >Yes. There is no ancient corroborating material >from the Christendom to say that Thomas landed >on the West coast or he was martyred in St. Thomas mount; >Largely Portugese era stories. > >Regards. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 02:49:50 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 19:49:50 -0700 Subject: Punjab and Aryavarta Message-ID: <161227049470.23782.14179502187458022135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The list members might be interested in learning how the different communities of Punjab view each other in modern times. First, let us not forget, that before the British introduced large scale irrigation in Western Punjab (in Pakistan), that area was largely desert/forested and had a predominant Muslim population (except for districts of Central Punjab like Lahore, Silakot and some places further south like Multan). The Muslims of these regions were called 'Jumglees'(barbarians) by the Hindus/Sikhs. Even the Hindu minority of Jhang, Campbellpur and adjoining regions was looked down upon by the Hindus of the Doaba. These districts no longer have Hindus left (about 16000 lost their lives in 1947 and those who could flee were settled at Rohtak--including some relatives of my In laws)but even today, old Punjabi ladies say--"She is bound to be quarrlesome since she is from Jhang." The Multanis (eg. Malik, Kampani, some Aroras) were a subculture within Punjab and spoke a language called 'Multani' (closely linked to Punjabi). At present however, Western Punjab is densely populated and supports a population of 75 million. When irrigation was introduced, numerous Sikhs (and a few Hindus) moved to the districts of Layallpur, Sheikhupura, Sargodha etc. and they never mixed with the local Muslims. The Hindus-Sikhs of the following districts were highly regarded for their culture (and the Punjabi spoken by them is the standard Punjabi)- Jallandhar, Ludhiana, Gurdaspur, Lahore, Amritsar. As of today, some Punjabi Banias (like my mother's side) still regard the Punjabi Kshatriyas (called Khatris --Koli, Kapoor, Bhatia,Chawla, Kundra, Nindra etc.) as too garish, loud. Amongst Sikhs, those of Amritsar, parts of Gurdaspur, Faridkot, Jallandhar and Ludhiana (the Doaba-Majha-Majitha region) are considered more sophisticated and the Punjabi is considered better than those of say Ropar, Patiala, Sangrur etc. Of course all the Hindus-Sikhs of W. Punjab are now in India and such internal distinctions are rapidly vanmishing. Infact, the Punjabis outside Punjab are rapdily abandoning Punjabi and adopting Hindi. It is not uncommon to find Punjabi households in Delhi where not a single child can speak the tongue (in my generation, I am the only one who can speak chaste Punjabi. The skill was developed consiously). Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Paul Kekai Manansala Subject: Re: Punjab and Aryavarta Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 22:36:11 -0700 Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > When the Vedic Aryans moved further East into modern U.P., Aryavarta > gets defined. Which Sanskrit texts downgrade the present Punjab area > (Pakistan, India) as the land of Mlecchas and Non-Aryans? Is it in Manu? > What about Puranas? Did this occur after Hunas, Shakas etc., invaded > the Punjab and West India? > Even in the Rgveda, much of the Punjab was 'Dasa' territory. The 'Aryan' land is around modern Haryana, the same region later inhabited by the Kurus of the Mahabharata. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 02:59:01 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 19:59:01 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final Message-ID: <161227049472.23782.18370516804813684325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many Hindi purists (inculding myself and some of my ex- teachers on the subject) do insist that the final 'a' should not be omitted while pronouncing words like 'Asoka', 'Ganesha' etc. They (and I ) point out that these words are different from 'Hanuman' and 'Bhagvan' where there is a 'Halant' at the last letter. However, by and large, Hindis do omit the last 'a'. This has lead most Hindis to make spelling errors while writing words like 'Hanuman' etc. On the other hand, use of standard English spellings for Surnames (like 'Gupta) has lead to the opposite effect- the 'hrasva' a is pronounced as 'DIrgha' A (i.e. as guptA). Again, this mistake has percolated even to those secions of people who do not know english. It is very common to hear people addressing a Mr. Gupta as 'guptAjI'. While addressing people with names like Santosh, Ashok etc., the Punjabis tend to lengthen the final hrasva 'a' (Array Santosh3) while Hindis would say 'Array Santo3sh" Why this has happened? I don't know. But a fairly prevelant joke is that the Punjabis are always in a hurry and therefore keep distorting the correct pronounciations and introduce guttaral sounds into Hindi :-) Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: "N. Ganesan" Subject: Re: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:02:21 PDT What is pronounced as "rAm" from a Hindi text is written identically in a Sanskrit text though it is read as "rAma" in Sanskrit. This general rule is true, say, for the case of "kannaD" while reading in Hindi whereas it is "kannaDa" in Sanskrit as fas as Nagari writing goes. Does this explain why word-final "a"s are cut out in Hindi? Thanks, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Thu May 27 01:36:00 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 26 May 99 21:36:00 -0400 Subject: Love in a dead language Message-ID: <161227049461.23782.14159338129637120924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It may of interest to the subscribers of this list since the topic deals with people like you. I wonder if the author of the book is also a subscriber. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/may/26us3.htm Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442 Fax #: 209-315-8571 Random thought of the day: "I want something exciting, something to play with, & some chocolate." From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Thu May 27 07:29:07 1999 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 00:29:07 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of short a Message-ID: <161227049482.23782.724876000675334057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Balaji Hebbar wrote: > > In fact, two decades ago when I learnt Pali under the late > Venerable Dr. PiyAnanda MahAthero (a Sinhalese monk), the > Venerable would laugh at the the Indian prounuciation of the > final positioned Sanskrit visarga. For example, the Indian > tendency is to pronounce "rAmaH" as "rAmaHa". Ven. PiyAnanda > would say, why? and laugh. Prounounce it as exactly as it is > "rAmaH" and nothing more. This feature can be observed in the Vedic recitation of the Nambudiris too... whether the visarga occurs after a short or long vowel, there is no extra vowel attached to the "H". You can listen to several examples on the recording "The Four Vedas" made by Prof.Staal for Asch Records (1968).. > I have praised the Sinhalas in front of a whole panapoly of > Tamilian savants. I only hope I come out of this one > unscathed and in one piece! Except for this unwarranted nonsense, you did pretty OK on this post. I suppose the Venerable is yet to teach you vinaya... after Dharma, eh ? -Srini. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu May 27 05:10:39 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 01:10:39 -0400 Subject: pataJjali and pANini myths Message-ID: <161227049480.23782.5918786629202597657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, The results of my investigation into the myths linking (1) pataJjali and AdizESa and (2) pANini and zivasUtras (following M. M. Deshpande's important earlier article in JAOS, 1997) are presented at the Indology web site with the following address. I thank Dominik for mounting this at the Indology web site. http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/palaniappan-patanjali.html In summary, the naTarAja cult at Chidambaram in competition with the dakSiNAmURti cult at Pandyan Madurai has been the source of the myths linking pataJjali with zeSa and pANini receiving the basis of his grammar from ziva. This investigation also revealed that Abhinavagupta of Kashmir was familiar with some of the traditions prevailing at the naTarAja temple at Chidambaram and he used them in his works. The findings underscore the importance of the use of Tamil materials for arriving at a proper understanding of some ancient Indian cultural elements and the need for collaboration between Sanskrit and Tamil scholars. Comments are welcome. Regards S. Palaniappan From ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 02:39:59 1999 From: ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM (Asha Naidu) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 02:39:59 +0000 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049465.23782.7541757990140683562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: >I believe they may be representative of ancient incorporations and >inclusions of darker non-brahmins into the brahmin community. I find quite a few arguments on this list arguing in this vein. Brahmins have to be fair and non brahmins (non dvijas) dark. This I think is totally absurd. Skin complexion has go to do more with climatic conditions than any racial origin. For eg : in Kerala, even the non-brahmins - the so called drAvidians - the Menons, Nairs, Nambiars - are quite fair complexioned. And I've even seen some Namboodiris not quite so fair! I would safely rule out any argument of inter caste marriages, as the Namboodiris are amongst the most casteist brahmins in BhArath. My statement: "I believe they may be representative of ancient incorporations and >inclusions of darker non-brahmins into the brahmin community." was intended >to suggest that the caste system at certain points of history may have been >more flexible and permitted the co-option of individuals/groups based on >their merits and not their race - i.e. that it was not always exclusive and >that Brahmins are not always fair skinned! However in my experience, the >Brahmins seem to have a higher proportion of "fair skinned" people than >among the sudras in most parts of India. >racial origin. For eg : in Kerala, even the non-brahmins - the so called >drAvidians - the Menons, Nairs, Nambiars - are quite fair complexioned. And >I've even seen some Namboodiris not quite so fair! I would safely rule out >any argument of inter caste marriages, as the Namboodiris are amongst the >most casteist brahmins in BhArath. Bad example for the point you are making. The non-Brahmin castes in Kerala have substantial Brahmin genetic heritage, through Kerala's unique social setup. Among Nambudiri families, the tradition was that only the eldest son married a Nambudiri girl, while the younger sons married (or had 'sambandham' with, to use Keralite terminology) women of other castes. The children of these marriages were considered to belong to the mother's caste. One would think that in this day and age, people would be more aware of general scientific thought, and on this list, with anthropology too. It is surprising, the frequency with which caste and race are confused with each other. The concept of 'race' based on such a superficial (literally) phenotypic characteristic like skin color is quite outmoded, except in discussions of social prejudice in countries like the USA and South Africa. Vidyasankar I am no more confused than anyone else on this list with respect to race and caste and agree that people should be aware of general scientific thought and suggest the following web page: http://home.earthlink.net/~ravi/genetics where the "Genetics of Iyers' is discussed. The Iyers who set up this page seem to believe that they are genetically speaking, a distinct branch of the Indo european and Central Asian tree along with some southeast Asian haplotypes that they may have picked up while coming to India. Abstracts of comparitive genetic studies are quoted in this article. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 02:46:18 1999 From: ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM (Asha Naidu) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 02:46:18 +0000 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049467.23782.16284419237017577736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If the link given in my previous message did not work please look for the "Iyer Resource Page" on www.metacrawler.com or http://home.earthlink.net/~ravi/genetics.html. My apologies for any inclonvenience. Asha _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 11:29:31 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 04:29:31 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049486.23782.4424985257077245764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I would safely rule out any argument of inter caste marriages, as >the Namboodiris are amongst the most casteist brahmins in BhArath. Pl. check Kathleen Gough's writings: Eg., The definition of Nayar marriage, etc., [...] Thevars in Tamil Nadu, the present land owning classes in Bihar etc. Early Tamil texts also speak of the division of the society into four castes, even before the advent of the brahmin into the Southern lands. [...] FYI, Thevars are not among the rich castes; In general, their land, Ramnad dist. is perennially dry; On maRavar, see CilappatikAram. Thevar vs. Untouchables fights are on the rise because today, some sections of Dalits are richer than upper castes. Want to which early Tamil texts "divide society into four castes"? Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 12:45:56 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 05:45:56 -0700 Subject: Chruch of St. Thomas and Archaeology Message-ID: <161227049488.23782.3873048396240831292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >"The Myth of St. Thomas and the Mylapore Shiva Temple" by Ishwar >Sharan; >Published by 'Voice of India', Delhi Thanks for the reference, Vishal. Most likely that no material predating 16th century exists for Thomas' martyrdom near Chennai. >3. The author documents the history of St. Thomas Christians and >states that they derive their name from Thomas of Canaai- leader of a >group of Nestorian Christians who fled persuecution in >Persia (not sure about this) around 350 C.E. There is a text of a copper plate inscription from 345 CE!; Its translation is mounted on the web by Prof. Ninan; "Supposed" to be from 345 A.D. If true, it could be very important to Keralan history. The problem is that Ninan's version lists 72 honors given to St. Thomas of Canaai; This list is typical for Nayak period; *Definitely* not for 345 CE. Check it with any epigrapist or historian of South India. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 13:04:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 06:04:29 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049490.23782.3833377950270292861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal wrote: >They (and I) point out that >these words are different from 'Hanuman' and 'Bhagvan' where there is a >'Halant' at the last letter. However, by and large, Hindis do >omit the last 'a'. This has lead most Hindis to make spelling errors >while writing words like 'Hanuman' etc. This is exactly my question: Why "BhagvAn" instead of "BhagavAn"? Is the leaving out of intermediate "a"s also present in "Hindi"? Thanks for your answer, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu May 27 14:44:04 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 07:44:04 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of short a Message-ID: <161227049495.23782.13787866860918359310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > {..} on the issue to the pronunciation of the short "a" >in Sanskrit and the vernacular Indian tongues, we might want >to consider Sinhala. The Sinhalese are the only people I have >seen pronounce the short "a" distinctly either without >unwarrantedly elongating it, suffixing it or cutting it short >(as though there is a halant) as the North-Indians do. In >short, you will hear them pronounce the word "Arjuna" as >"Arjuna" and not as "ArjunA", "Arjunan" or "Arjun". Perhaps, >the Sinhalas are the only "Northern Indic" peoples who are >truly free of the modern "Hindi" influence which reaches down >(as one of you pointed out) well into the Andhra and Karnatak >regions. > {..} Next time, hear the Sinhalese >pronounce Sanskrit words. In fact, just hear the Sinhalese >speak their own language, the short "a" is very clearly >audible and it is so pleasing to the ear. Briefly: the "n" endings are added only when sanskrit nouns are tamilized. Tamil grammar requires it. Tamils do not say with a final "n" when they read Sanskrit either in grantha or nagari. Ie., they pronounce "Arjunan" while reading Tamil texts only. But, it is "arjuna" when they recite Skt MBh, with a clear final "a". Tamil BrAhmaNa traditions of preserving Vedas and later Sanskrit is justly world famous. Regards, SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 14:49:21 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 07:49:21 -0700 Subject: St.Thomas Message-ID: <161227049499.23782.9641084372530011149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >When the Indian church became part of >the Persian, it was natural that the apostle of the Persian church >was introduced in India. Cosmas Indicopleustes in the sixth century >was the first to make Thomas visiting South India, he also knew that >the South Indian church was subject to the Persian. Thomas probably >never visited India, but the tradition that he did is much earlier >than the Portuguese. Dear Prof. Karttunen, Does Cosmas Indicopleustes talk of St. Thomas suffering near Madras? What are the early sources for this myth of killing St. Thomas near Chennai? Thanks, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Thu May 27 15:18:36 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 08:18:36 -0700 Subject: Punjab and Aryavarta Message-ID: <161227049504.23782.14878418049345077326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vishal Agarwal wrote: > The list members might be interested in learning > how the different communities of Punjab view > each other in modern times.. > The Muslims of these regions were called > 'Jumglees'(barbarians) by the Hindus/Sikhs. > Even the Hindu minority of Jhang, Campbellpur > and adjoining regions was looked down upon by > the Hindus of the Doaba. These > districts no longer have Hindus > left (about 16000 lost their lives in 1947 and those > who could flee were > settled at Rohtak--including some relatives of my In > laws)but even today, > old Punjabi ladies say--"She is bound to be > quarrlesome since she is from > Jhang." I don't suppose they say the same of Abdus Salaam, the Nobel Prize winner in Physics and arguably the most prominent son of Jhang in the 20th century ; - ) There do not seem to be any Pakistanis in Indology, so let me defend Jhang as best as I can ; - ). Perhaps you're aware of the Punjabi proverb rAvi kIrAn di, chenAb fakIrAn di (Loosely translated as "Ravi waters breed grasping tendencies whereas Chenab waters breed world renouncers"). Also, you may want to remember that the heroine Heer of the ballad Heer Raanjha was from Jhang. The reason for this bad press for Jhang is not very clear to me unless it be from the Rigveda, Puranas or other historical texts ; - ) Thanks and Warm Regards, Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From alvapillai.veluppillai at TEOL.UU.SE Thu May 27 07:53:49 1999 From: alvapillai.veluppillai at TEOL.UU.SE (Alvappillai Veluppillai) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 08:53:49 +0100 Subject: Christianity in India (was: Nambudiris) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049484.23782.8929537879864636835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Even though I have not yet seen Klimkeit's book, I feel that it could be the authoritative work, Ganesan is looking for. Klimkeit consulted me about the reading and the translation of the inscriptions, as there is controversy among scholars. The Kottayam Syrian plates were first edited by H. Gundert in the Madras Journal of Literature and Science, vol. xviii, part i, pp. 115-142 (1844). The contribution of Kukkul Kelu Nayar on the same plates appeared in the same journal. S G Pothan's book - The Syrian Christians of Kerala - seems to have outdated translations and interpretations of the copper plates. Professional epigraphists have edited these copper plates long ago. 1. V Venkayya, "Kottayam Plate of Vira Raghava", Epigraphia Indica, vol. iv, no.41 (1896-7). 2. T A Gopinatha Rao, "Three Inscriptions of Sthanu Ravi", Travancore Archaeological Series, vol ii, no.9 (circa 1920). There was controversy, K N Daniel subjecting these articles to serious scrutiny in "Kottayam Plate of Vira Raghava Chakravarti" and "The Ancuvannam and the Manikkiramam of the Kottayam Plates of Tanu Iravi or the Jews and Christians of Malabar" in Indian Antiquary, vol. 53 (1924). Pothan had given photographic plates of hand impressions of writing on Sthanu Ravi's copper plates. It is difficult to arrive at accurate decpherments from hand impressions. In Gopinatha Rao's edition, real photographic plates have been given for about 53 out of 80 lines. I agree with the professional epigraphists' dating of the records as belonging to the 13th and 9th centuries AD respectively. 9 century record is important- there seems to be 2 records dealing with different aspects of the same grant. 1st record. The Chief of Venadu granted to the Church, the Tarusappalli at Kollam, the rights over certain families (Ilavar, washermen, etc) who were handed over to the Church. 2nd record. shows more clearly that the Church was not located within the fort. Within the land of the Church, the Christian traders and their dependents were to be tried by the Church in cases of misconduct. Greater honours were bestowed on the founder of the Church. It appears that the donee was a recent immigrant. But the record mentions the names of some Christians, who might have been local Christians. A.Veluppillai >><<< >>St. Thomas christians of India are talked about in early Christian >>documents at least from about 350 A.D and the ties betweent the Indian >>church and the Persian church are a established fact based on >>documentation from the period 350 A.D. or so. I will try to get some >>more specific info on this. This still doesn't establish St. Thomas's >>visit, but at least the advent of Christianity in India in the first >> few hundred centuries A.D. >>>>> >> >> Pl. inform us of a university level publication talking of >>the connection between Persian and Indian churches in 4th century AD. >>Possible, but where it is written?? >> >Perhaps the following publication will help (I have not seen the book yet, >but I know Klimkeit as a reliable scholar): >Ian Gillman and Hans-Joachim Klimkeit: Christians in Asia before 1500. >Richmond, Surrey: Curzon Press, 1998. > >G.v.Simson From amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Thu May 27 16:27:26 1999 From: amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Prof. M M Agrawal) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 09:27:26 -0700 Subject: Ashtadhyayi Teacher at Delhi Message-ID: <161227049475.23782.8274274033280786106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Allen Thrasher had asked about availibility of a tutor of Ashtadhyayi at delhi for his friend. I suggest that he should go to Deptt. of Sanskrit, Delhi University, Maurice Nagar, Delhi-7 and contact Prof. Avanindra Kumar, Professor of Ashtadhyayi. He will be very helpful to him. He will suggest him properly. Hope I have been of some help. Best regards, Madan Mohan Agrawal Prof. of Sanskrit, Delhi University From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Thu May 27 09:49:48 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 09:49:48 +0000 Subject: Gentoo studies In-Reply-To: <000601bea446$8f253980$1dede6ce@vogmudet> Message-ID: <161227049477.23782.13362793685461581284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 06:30:52 -0500 > From: Shrisha Rao > However, to assume that a grounding in Greek, Latin and Avestan is much or > all of what it takes to make pronouncements re, e.g., the Rg Veda, is more > than we can agree upon, at least at this point. Even if Gonda "went > straight to the Vedas," he did not "go" to any classical scholar of the > Vedas and get trained, [...] > It is common > knowledge in academia that one needs to go through a period of > apprenticeship and interaction with senior scholars in order to gain > scholarly maturity, and I doubt there was a community of RV scholars located > in the vicinity of Gonda's armchair in Utrecht. The absence of 'a community of RV scholars' may, far from being the disadvantage that you think it is, actually be an advantage. From a few of your remarks on this list I think I discern a fundamental misunderstanding underlying a few of the threads. Theology is not the same as philology, nor as Religionswissenschaft (what in English is vaguely called 'religious studies'). Later thinkers, also traditionalistic RV scholars, may have interesting things to say about scripture etc., but from a contemporary theological standpoint. This may be meaningful, in a way, for many people at the time when the theology is proclaimed, but it need not be a faithful reflection of historical reality. A historian of religion (any religion) does well to take a skeptical view of traditional theologians. Consider, e.g., the concept of "apauru.seyatva" and Prof. Witzel's recent comment on this list: not only does the concept have no base in the Vedas themselves, but those texts actually contradict it. (Let me at once assure the readers that this is not an evil 'Western' / 'neo-colonial' / 'Orientalist' / 'eurocentric' / what-not attempt at 'insulting India and her culture', etc. etc. There is at least one 13th-cent. Jaina text that has ridiculed the concept for exactly the same reason, and it is not unlikely that earlier such critiques can be found.) If an idea that appears later in time is demonstrably wrong, should a religiously non-committed researcher take it at all seriously? This depends on what the topic of research is. If the topic is "(post-) medieval religious ideologies", then yes; if it is "ancient Indian religion", then clearly no. > However, even ignoring this > point, Gonda's writings in "Change and Continuity of Indian Religion" are > certainly concerned with contemporary Indian society, and I do not accept > that Gonda's having no first-hand feel for his subject would be a negligible > circumstance. There you have a point. Contemporary India was not Gonda's strong side, to put it mildly, and this is well known throughout the scholarly community. Even so, it is possible to make valid general judgments about certain broad developments in Indian religion over a period of a few thousand years on the basis of later and recent writings by Indian and other authors. To give a trivial example: if one is interested in 'change and continuity' in the idea of what the Vedas are and mean, one need not come to India (esp. considering that the average Hindu has no foggy clue as to what the Vedas are about). But this is a general remark about a principle. I have not read that particular book by Gonda and hence do not know about its contents. RZ From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 16:52:48 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 09:52:48 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049514.23782.11867282755634232984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhya writes : >Bad example for the point you are making. The non-Brahmin castes in Kerala >have substantial Brahmin genetic heritage, through Kerala's unique social >setup. Among Nambudiri families, the tradition was that only the eldest son >married a Nambudiri girl, while the younger sons married (or had >'sambandham' with, to use Keralite terminology) women of other castes. The >children of these marriages were considered to belong to the mother's >caste. I'm quite aware of this. But the miniscule minority that Namboodiris are, couldn't have had 'sambandham' with the whole of the non-brahmin population. And from what I've seen, Keralites, whichever caste they might belong to, are generally fair in complexion. This is the reason that I attribute differences in complexion, skin color etc to climatic conditions than any racial origin. Another thing to observe is that non-brahmin Keralites seem to have a distinct culture of their own, quite different from the Tamils - food, housing, dress, social customs, festivals etc. Considering that the exponents of the AIT, hold that both people have the same racial, civilizational origins - apart from the fact that Illango Adigal was the brother of Cheran Senguttuvan, has there been a serious study analyzing the similarities, differences between the two peoples? (Actually apart from the Tamils none of the other "Dravidians" (Keralites, Andhrites, Kannadigas? Marathas?) seem keen on claiming a Dravidian heritage or links with Tamil. Even in communist Kerala, Samskrutam flourishes!). A few months ago there was an article in the magazine India Today, about some kind of genetic research on different castes in India, being conducted by the University of Andhra Pradesh in collaboration with some University in the US. And yesterday there was an article in the San Francisco Chronicle, which carried further information about the same research - that the upper castes have a particular "Y chromosome DNA", which can be traced to Europe. But what this exactly proves is beyond me! Ganesan writes : >FYI, Thevars are not among the rich castes; In general, >their land, Ramnad dist. is perennially dry; On maRavar, >see CilappatikAram. Thevar vs. Untouchables fights are >on the rise because today, some sections of Dalits are richer than >upper castes. Maybe I'm mistaken about the Thevars. But if it's not them it's somebody else (Kallar or whoever), but definitely not brahmins. Brahmins in Tamil Nadu are for the most part only the middle class, predominantly in the service industry (my grandfather never tired of saying, "a brAhmana should never go into business"). Some are pretty poor too. I read about the division of castes amongst the Tamils, in KA Nilakanta Shastri's History of South India. And if I remember right V Iyer, also mentioned it, in a post recently. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From senthurann at YAHOO.COM Thu May 27 17:11:36 1999 From: senthurann at YAHOO.COM (Senthuran Nagalingam) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 10:11:36 -0700 Subject: Parvata in VP 2.486-"grandhamAtrE vyvasthitaH" Message-ID: <161227049520.23782.11534357531531491199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not see the connection between Parvata mentioned in VP 2.486 and the following story. Also, this baffles me:"So a live tradition of pANinian grammer at the time of VP is a disqualification for that part of India to be the source of pANinian vyAkaraNa." Sincerely, Senthuran, N. Mr. D. V. N. Sarma wrote: <<< sAtavAhanAs were encouraging prAkrit upto hAla sAtavAhanA. One his queens who was a Ceylonese princess made fun of him for his lack of sanskrit knowledge.(mAM mOdakais[mA+udakaiH] tADaya). Stung to the quick he wanted to learn sanskrit in a hurry. The pANinian scholar and minister guNADhya offered to teach him sanskrit along with the grammer in 6 years. (Usually it takes 12 years). One of the younger ministers by name sarvavarman said that he can do it within six months. sarvavarman by the grace of kArtikEya wrote a new vyAkaraNa called kAlApaka vyAkaraNa or kAtantra. He taught hAla sanskrit within six months they say. In what measure we do not know but who will dare say that king hasn't learnt it, when the king decides he has learnt it. As per the bet that was made earlier guNADhya abjured using the all the civilised languages including sanskrit and went to forest to compose his magnumopus bRhatkatha in paizAchi. The above clearly show the conditions in Andhra were such that the the phrase "grandhamAtrE vyvasthitaH" applies very nicely to pANinian grammer. The reason is in the beginning the court language was prAkrit. Even later when sanskrit was studied it was through kAtantra because "yathA rAjA tathA prajA" applies. Let me add one thing the katantra was really a good effort for some time it was used in almost all parts of India and even now it is used in Bengal. So a live tradition of pANinian grammer at the time of VP is a disqualification for that part of India to be the source of pANinian vyAkaraNa. regards, sarma. >>> _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From senthurann at YAHOO.COM Thu May 27 17:12:56 1999 From: senthurann at YAHOO.COM (Senthuran Nagalingam) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 10:12:56 -0700 Subject: Parvata in VP 2.486-"grandhamAtrE vyvasthitaH" Message-ID: <161227049516.23782.6513988243804841102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Vidyanath Rao wrote: >This story got distorted over time, especially among >those who didn't understand that the queen's Sanskrit >was faulty. But the true story was preserved in the >Potiyil tradition --- the king's original Sanskrit >teacher came from there --- and has come down >(karNaparampara) to some pandits of the area. In fact >I learned the true story from one of them. Quite possible. Look at the famous Satavahana bilingual coin - Tamil on one side, Prakrit on the other. The king's name is inscribed on the coin. -Senthuran, N. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Thu May 27 14:42:25 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 10:42:25 -0400 Subject: UbhayavIryas Message-ID: <161227049497.23782.134277209308216264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: >Even in the ancient days of YAgnavalkya, Janaka and AshtAvakra, >debating seems to be confined only to the higher classes, predominantly >brAhmana, with the occasional kshatriya thrown in. This is indeed true. That is the reason why the Brahmins and Kshatriyas are referred to as the UbhayavIryas. The brahmin was the "SharmA" ("spiritual protector") and the KShatriya the "VarmA" ("physical protector"). Sometimes their roles also interchanged such as BhIShma trying to behave like a brahmin and DroNA, AshvatthAmA etc. behaving like KShatriyas. ParashurAma and VishvAmitra would be other examples. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Thu May 27 14:54:41 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 10:54:41 -0400 Subject: The final visarga Message-ID: <161227049500.23782.9597533693456932528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Srini Pichumani wrote: >This feature can be observed in the Vedic recitation of the Nambudiris >too... whether the visarga occurs after a short or long vowel, there >is no extra vowel attached to the "H". You can listen to several >examples on the recording "The Four Vedas" made by Prof.Staal for Asch >Records (1968).. Dear Mr. Pichumani: Do you think the Sinhalas may have got this pronunciation from the Keralite brahmins since the two are in such close proximity? or is it vice-versa? If you have any insights into this please let us know. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Thu May 27 15:03:33 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 11:03:33 -0400 Subject: Original Sanskrit names Message-ID: <161227049502.23782.10886088969489047854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would any knowledgable Indologist post the original Sanskrit names for at least the major cities in the northern part of the sub-continent whose names have become corrupted over time. Let me give you a few examples. 1. Peshawar = PuruShapura 2. Multan = MUlasthAna 3. Lucknow = LakShaNapuri 4. Allahabad = MahAprayAga 5. Jullundher = Jalandhara (demon husband of VRndA in the SkAnda PurANa) Many thanks in advance. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Thu May 27 15:21:57 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 11:21:57 -0400 Subject: KAn.chI v. SRngeri Message-ID: <161227049507.23782.17476911046790326852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Sundaresan: Perhaps you are the best equipped on the list to answer the following: 1. Why is the KAn.chI KAmakoTi PItham always excluded among the "ShankarAcAryas". Why just the four ones? 2. Why is the ShankarAcArya of SRngeri considered primus inter pares (first among equals) even among the four. Was it because SRngeri was given to Shankara's favorite disciple Sureshvara? 3. Why this intense rivalry between KAn.chI and SRngeri especially? I have seen this in quite a few disciples belonging to both pIthas. 4. If Shankara established an apostolic seat at KAn.chI, was it because KAn.chI was the only one of the 7 holy Hindu places which was in the South? AND/OR perhaps it was a seat of Buddhism and the native city of Buddhist savants such as Bodhidharma, DinnAga etc. Kindly clarify these, Regards, B.N.Hebbar From athr at LOC.GOV Thu May 27 15:31:14 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 11:31:14 -0400 Subject: Ashtadhyayi Teacher at Delhi Message-ID: <161227049509.23782.2491578734117249513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. _Agrawal_, My apologies for misspelling your name in my first email of thanks. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 18:56:28 1999 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 11:56:28 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049522.23782.12939392789838351750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >(Actually apart from the Tamils none of the other "Dravidians" (Keralites, >Andhrites, Kannadigas? Marathas?) seem keen on claiming a Dravidian >heritage or links with Tamil. Even in communist Kerala, Samskrutam >flourishes!). To some extent, this can be due to the poor state of wealth/economics among today's Tamils; The success of varNa dharma, sanskrit alphabets and words are some other reasons why Non-Tamil Dravidians are little shy of their Dravidian heritage. Greetings, Prasad _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu May 27 19:58:48 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 12:58:48 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049524.23782.114542009350022982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- nanda chandran wrote: > >I believe they may be representative of ancient incorporations and > >inclusions of darker non-brahmins into the brahmin community. > > I find quite a few arguments on this list arguing in this vein. Brahmins > have to be fair and non brahmins (non dvijas) dark. This I think is totally > absurd. Skin complexion has go to do more with climatic conditions than any > racial origin. For eg : in Kerala, even the non-brahmins - the so called > drAvidians - the Menons, Nairs, Nambiars - are quite fair complexioned. And > I've even seen some Namboodiris not quite so fair! I would safely rule out > any argument of inter caste marriages, as the Namboodiris are amongst the > most casteist brahmins in BhArath. I do not know how much exposure you have to Keralan low classes; as your writings are mainly concerned with `high classes'. Kerala caste system, arranged vertically has more people of fair complexion among `high classes' whom you are in contact with and very many people who are quite dark among the `low classes'. Can it be the 'sambandham' phenomenon working? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Thu May 27 17:14:35 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 13:14:35 -0400 Subject: Pronunciation of short a Message-ID: <161227049518.23782.15857156982227765006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Madhuresan: Many thanks for the feedback and clarification a la Tamil endings. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 20:51:56 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 13:51:56 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049526.23782.10176241459973356640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I do not know how much exposure you have to Keralan low classes; > as your writings are mainly concerned with `high classes'. > Kerala caste system, arranged vertically has more people of fair > complexion among `high classes' whom you are in contact with > and very many people who are quite dark among the `low classes'. This may well be due to the fact that the lower strata of the society are usually engaged in manual labour, working in the fields etc and are constantly exposed to the sun, thus resulting in a dark complexion. This can be observed anywhere. Even in the USA I've seen quite a few white labourers, who're not so white as those not engaged in such work. >Can it be the 'sambandham' phenomenon working? Yes. Working only in our minds. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu May 27 21:05:00 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 14:05:00 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049527.23782.13189360083954961936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- nanda chandran wrote: > >I do not know how much exposure you have to Keralan low classes; > > as your writings are mainly concerned with `high classes'. > > Kerala caste system, arranged vertically has more people of fair > > complexion among `high classes' whom you are in contact with > > and very many people who are quite dark among the `low classes'. > > This may well be due to the fact that the lower strata of the society are > usually engaged in manual labour, working in the fields etc and are > constantly exposed to the sun, thus resulting in a dark complexion. Sorry, Nanda, I beg to differ: The dark complexion of most number of Shudras as contrased with the color of the top varna cannot just be explained away on the basis of "work" in the fields under the hot sun. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 21:17:50 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 14:17:50 -0700 Subject: Racial Origin of Caste (Re: varna and jati) Message-ID: <161227049529.23782.9967897666644976204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following comments come from a dual perspective - that of a professional scientist involved with biotechnology, and an amateur Indologist. Asha Naidu wrote: >I am no more confused than anyone else on this list with respect to race >and >caste and agree that people should be aware of general scientific thought >and suggest the following web page: >http://home.earthlink.net/~ravi/genetics >where the "Genetics of Iyers' is discussed. The Iyers who set up this page >seem to believe that they are genetically speaking, a distinct branch of >the >Indo european and Central Asian tree along with some southeast Asian >haplotypes that they may have picked up while coming to India. Abstracts of >comparitive genetic studies are quoted in this article. I can't speak for the Iyers who set up this page, but all that is said on that page is quoted from those papers on genetics. The researchers from Madurai Kamaraj university have said nothing about race. Rather, they have assumed that Brahmins = Aryans, based on the age-old paradigm of Indology. This assumption is what has lead them to compare Iyer genetic data with those of Brahmins from Lucknow and Punjab. The southeast Asian haplotype is in fact a surprising element, and can be interpreted differently from what the Madurai authors have done. If the Bhargavas of Lucknow, whereas the latter cluster with Central Asians and the Punjabis with Europeans, and the Tamil Iyers do not cluster with any of these groups, then this is genetic data that suggests a quite different origin for the Iyers as compared to north Indian Brahmins. What migration route can one suggest from the steppes of Central Asia to India through southeast Asia? Perhaps the assumption that the ancestors of Tamil Brahmins came out of the so called Indo-European homeland in Central Asia is what should be questioned in the first place. Then, what are the implications for understanding the term "brAhmaNa varNa" in terms of race? There is no easy answer, but at the very least, it shows that race and caste are not the same, nor is caste racial in origin. Samar Abbas wrote: > Genetics has recently proven that the caste system of India is racial in >origin, with different castes representing different races : This is the kind of far-fetched statement that totally misrepresents genetic science. Cluster analysis of populations is nowhere as thorough and complete as to permit such a conclusion. Vast numbers of human beings are yet to be tested and the statistical implications of doing wide ranging comparisons are mind boggling. It is extremely premature, to say the least, that caste is racial in origin, assuming that 'race' can be supported on the basis of sound genetics. There are many scientists who even deny that the social concept of race can be mapped to something that is significant genetically. ................ >Both papers show that the Sudroids are of African (and not Caucasoid) >stock, explaining the `black' colour associated with them in Vedic It should be no great surprise that Indian populations share affinities with African ones, but this genetic data hardly "explains," in any sense of the term, the black color. > The `yellow' colour of Vaisyas may be due to darkening of Aryan skin, or >due to Mongoloid (`Naga') admixture; other surveys show considerable >Mongoloid racial admixture, esp. in East India. The 'yellow' of the Vaisyas has no relation to the 18th c. European Joe-six-pack's idea that Mongoloid people are yellow in color. Finally, any theory that chooses to find the origin of Indian varNas in terms of 'race' has to deal with one major question. If the black of the Sudra comes from Negroid, white of the Brahmin from Caucasoid and yellow from Mongoloid, where does the red of the Kshatriya come from? It is only fair to expect some completeness in your theory. More often than not, the scientific data are selectively quoted and misinterpreted by those who subscribe to a theory of the racial origin of caste. This is a universal problem - if it is caste in India, it is the supposed intellectual inferiority of the black in America. There are political considerations involved. Both the geneticist and the social scientist would do well to choose their words carefully in this area, and to be aware of the techniques used in and the assumptions behind each other's work. For those who are interested in the opinions of an expert who has a wonderful perspective on the larger issue, I would suggest that Stephen Jay Gould's works are essential reading. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 21:19:39 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 14:19:39 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049531.23782.14813912042531060921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >To some extent, this can be due to the poor state of wealth/economics >among today's Tamils; Is that what a heritage is worth - a few bucks? I don't think so. And as I mentioned before, the brahmins were never wealthy. So what made the dravidians accept their culture? >The success of varNa dharma, sanskrit alphabets >and words are some other reasons why Non-Tamil Dravidians >are little shy of their Dravidian heritage. If as per Dravidian rhetoric, the brahmins exploited the masses using varnAshrama dharma, then one would think that the other dravidians would be more than eager to free themselves of the brahmanic yoke and reclaim and take pride in their original heritage. I've lived in Bangalore and Pune and have both Keralite and Telugu friends. In Bangalore, I never experienced any such anti brahmin sentiment. The poor of Andhra resent only the land owning Reddy and Kamma (I think). Ofcourse, the communist propoganda in Kerala is very much against the Namboodaris, quite justifiably in some areas. But the Namboodaris hold over religious activities is still strong and even endorsed by the public. And there are also smArthas living in Kerala in PAlakAd, who also haven't been treated so badly. Go to Pune and you'll know the influence and the respect that the brahmins wield in MahArAshtra. Infact, people from all four categories (Keralite, Telugu, Kannada, MarAti) that I've met, stoutly deny that their language is derived from Tamizh, and insist that it's Samskrutam which is the mother language. Even if they're actually wrong, it still reflects their respect and affinity towards Samskrutam, which could never have been achieved by coersion. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 22:22:41 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 15:22:41 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049533.23782.8680897553632337888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May I venture to point out that the expression 'blue blooded' is said to have originated because the European aristocracy ventured into the sun so little that their skins became pale and blue veins showed through. I cannot provide you with a reference- just read it in a book several years back. It would be worthwhile to investigate if the Indians in the territories of Darius are ever mentioned as dark. Because according to AIT, the Indians in the territories under the control of Persians could not have been residents there for more than 6-10 centuries. Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Swaminathan Madhuresan Subject: Re: varna and jati Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:05:00 -0700 --- nanda chandran wrote: > >I do not know how much exposure you have to Keralan low classes; > > as your writings are mainly concerned with `high classes'. > > Kerala caste system, arranged vertically has more people of fair > > complexion among `high classes' whom you are in contact with > > and very many people who are quite dark among the `low classes'. > > This may well be due to the fact that the lower strata of the society are > usually engaged in manual labour, working in the fields etc and are > constantly exposed to the sun, thus resulting in a dark complexion. Sorry, Nanda, I beg to differ: The dark complexion of most number of Shudras as contrased with the color of the top varna cannot just be explained away on the basis of "work" in the fields under the hot sun. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 22:33:51 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 15:33:51 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049534.23782.16345596423304671107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For an appraisal of the Anti-Brahmin rhetoric, please read the relevant article at http://www.hindu.org/publications/ramswarup/index.html Suffice it to say that even the Mandal Commission report classifies Brahmin subcastes under OBC's. For instance, Iyers are OBC's in AP, the Goswamis in Delhi and so on. This shows that the notion of Brahmins being exploitative is not tenable. Besides, very few people know that not all so called 'Kashmirian Brahmins' are Brahmins or Pundits. When the very existence of Hindus in Kashmir became imperilled during the reign of a Muslim emperor, the caste system was dissolved and all were elevated to the Brahmin status. Refer: "Converted Kashmir: A Memorial of mistakes" by Saigal. The honorary title 'Pundit' was accorded to all Kashmiri Hindus by a Firman of a late Mughal Emperor. The truth is that Brahmins were at the forefront in the defence of the Hindu society and are said to have offered a stout resistance even to the forces of Alexander. The worst expolters of Sudras have actually been people of the intermediate castes ( Including perhaps mine) Regards Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: nanda chandran Subject: Re: varna and jati Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:19:39 PDT >To some extent, this can be due to the poor state of wealth/economics >among today's Tamils; Is that what a heritage is worth - a few bucks? I don't think so. And as I mentioned before, the brahmins were never wealthy. So what made the dravidians accept their culture? >The success of varNa dharma, sanskrit alphabets >and words are some other reasons why Non-Tamil Dravidians >are little shy of their Dravidian heritage. If as per Dravidian rhetoric, the brahmins exploited the masses using varnAshrama dharma, then one would think that the other dravidians would be more than eager to free themselves of the brahmanic yoke and reclaim and take pride in their original heritage. I've lived in Bangalore and Pune and have both Keralite and Telugu friends. In Bangalore, I never experienced any such anti brahmin sentiment. The poor of Andhra resent only the land owning Reddy and Kamma (I think). Ofcourse, the communist propoganda in Kerala is very much against the Namboodaris, quite justifiably in some areas. But the Namboodaris hold over religious activities is still strong and even endorsed by the public. And there are also smArthas living in Kerala in PAlakAd, who also haven't been treated so badly. Go to Pune and you'll know the influence and the respect that the brahmins wield in MahArAshtra. Infact, people from all four categories (Keralite, Telugu, Kannada, MarAti) that I've met, stoutly deny that their language is derived from Tamizh, and insist that it's Samskrutam which is the mother language. Even if they're actually wrong, it still reflects their respect and affinity towards Samskrutam, which could never have been achieved by coersion. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 22:49:14 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 15:49:14 -0700 Subject: Dr. Rajraram and Dr. Jha: Vedic Glossary of Indus Seals Message-ID: <161227049537.23782.11358770866347652862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Listmembers, Dr. Rarajaram permitted to post this response to Mr. Sunderesan's posting (see below) with the note that 'It is an informal response (sent to me initially)' and not a well articulated text book one." Sincerely, Vishal __________________________ Dr. Mr. Agarwal In my review of Talageri's book, I applauded the author's boldness and originality in recognizing that Vedic Civilization had eastern contribution also, but also stated that he ovestates his case. I specifically criticized his chronology which is based on 1400 BC date for the Mahabharata. His chronology is emphatically wrong. In any event, his methodology, which is based on linguistic and literary analysis, cannot be used for chronological decisions. At the same time, it is fair to add that Talageri himself, when I brought up the issue with him, admitted that his book was not concerned with chronology. Jha and I do not use Talageri's work in our decipherment. Decipherment is a highly technical problem that cannot be based on the kind of general linguistic and/or anthropological approaches favored by most Indologists. Jha uses comparative palaeography and the Vedic glossary Nighantu, as well as my recognition of the Harappa-Sulba sutra connection. In addition, I have introduced a palaeographic interpolation technique which allowed me to decipher the 'world's oldest writing'. All these are quite technical and work in the context of the Harappan script. We do not claim that they work for all scripts. As far as our chronology is concerned, the sheet anchor is the Harappa-Sutra-Sumeria equation, which is presented in detail in 'Vedic Aryans and the Origins of Civilization' by Rajaram and Frawley (Voice of India, New Delhi). We do not use the Puranic chronology because it does not give us an absolute reference. Sincerely, N.S. Rajaram ----Original Message Follows---- From: Swaminathan Madhuresan Subject: Re: Dr Rajaram and Dr. Jha: Vedic Glossary of Indus Seals Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:21:11 -0700 Dear Sri. Agarwal, In one of Rajaram's web pages, he wrote an applauding review of Shrikant's work which seems to say that Aryan homeland is modern UP, then the vedic Aryans were spreading from there out west, quoting several puranic materials. Is the chronology outlined in the puranas, the basis for saying Sindhu-Sarasvati civilation is Vedic Aryan? Did Rajaram use Shrikant's findings to decipher the oldest writing from Sarasvati delta as Vedic Aryan? Thanks, SM _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 22:53:03 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 15:53:03 -0700 Subject: Indus Valley script used by Tribals in Bihar, May 1999 Message-ID: <161227049538.23782.4488444002478825283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Following is an informal related comment by Dr. Rajaram, which he permitted me to post today. Sincerely, Vishal ___________________ The Indus script has left its impact on many Indian and West Asian scripts. Among the relatively modern are Landa and Gurmukhi used in Punjab and Sind (before partition). Brahmi of course is a descendant of the Indus, which was what allowed Jha to decipher it in the first place. For this reason Jha and I call it 'Proto-Brahmi'. There is evidence in the seals themselves to indicate that the Harappans called their writing Brahmi. Shaunaka tells us the same. Devanagari also a derivative of the Indus.We discuss all this in our forthcoming book THE DECIPHERED INDUS SCRIPT. sINCERELY, RAJARAM ----Original Message Follows---- From: "S.Kalyanaraman" Subject: Indus Valley Script used by tribals in Bihar, May 1999 Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:51:27 IST Hi, Please check out the following URL: http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/munda/bihartribal.htm This is an abstract of a talk by Dr. Anand M. Sharan,professor of Mechanical engineering at the Memorial University of Newfoundland. I am naturally thrilled by this report, since it adds grist to my hypothesis that the inscriptions were lists of bronze-age weapons; Mundas of Santal Paragan.as and Ranchi belt, are metallurgists par excellence... Best regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 23:13:30 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 16:13:30 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final Message-ID: <161227049540.23782.5514455714305220884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By and large yes. VA ----Original Message Follows---- From: "N. Ganesan" Subject: Re: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 06:04:29 PDT Vishal wrote: >They (and I) point out that >these words are different from 'Hanuman' and 'Bhagvan' where there is a >'Halant' at the last letter. However, by and large, Hindis do >omit the last 'a'. This has lead most Hindis to make spelling errors >while writing words like 'Hanuman' etc. This is exactly my question: Why "BhagvAn" instead of "BhagavAn"? Is the leaving out of intermediate "a"s also present in "Hindi"? Thanks for your answer, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 23:31:26 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 16:31:26 -0700 Subject: Original Sanskrit names Message-ID: <161227049542.23782.10565503392290844378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some more examples: Lahore = Luvapura Kasur (in E. Punjab) = KushAvati Jammu = Jambu Aligarh = Koil Agroha = Agreya Ahmadabad= KarnAvati Bharucha = Bhrgukaccha Ujjain = Ujjayani or Avantika Patna = PAtaliputra Sitapur = Naimisharanya Gwalior = Lashkara Jabalapur= JAvalipura Ajmer = Ajayameru Baramulla = VarAhamUla Will post more if I recall later. Regards Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Balaji Hebbar Subject: Original Sanskrit names Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:03:33 -0400 Would any knowledgable Indologist post the original Sanskrit names for at least the major cities in the northern part of the sub-continent whose names have become corrupted over time. Let me give you a few examples. 1. Peshawar = PuruShapura 2. Multan = MUlasthAna 3. Lucknow = LakShaNapuri 4. Allahabad = MahAprayAga 5. Jullundher = Jalandhara (demon husband of VRndA in the SkAnda PurANa) Many thanks in advance. Regards, B.N.Hebbar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 27 23:33:56 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 16:33:56 -0700 Subject: Punjab and Aryavarta Message-ID: <161227049544.23782.3922119451764235067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Lakshmi Srinivas Subject: Re: Punjab and Aryavarta Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:18:36 -0700 VA: No clue why Jhang GOT a bad press, but it GETS bad press nowadays because of unending Shia Sunni riots, killings, bombings etc. etc. Vishal ________________________________ The reason for this bad press for Jhang is not very clear to me unless it be from the Rigveda, Puranas or other historical texts ; - ) Thanks and Warm Regards, Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Thu May 27 23:51:29 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 16:51:29 -0700 Subject: Ta. maNTai and ziva begging with brahma's skull Message-ID: <161227049546.23782.16690396791193244924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In classical Tamil texts there is a persistence occurrence of the word maNTai which is used in the sense of a begging bowl. Of course, it always has meant "head" or "skull" too which is the currently dominant sense. It is interesting to note the connection between this and the purana concerning ziva begging with the skull from the erstwhile (middle?) head of brahma. Is that purana much later than cangkam era? ziva is said to have performed the decapitation of brahma, the first of his 8 heroic acts all of which were perfromed in Tamilkam, at kantiyUr [A.Veluppillai: IITS-Cologne's Kolam Tamil electronic journal, Vol 2. ]. " jnAla mImicai vaLLiyOr mAynten2a ElAtu kaviznta en2 iraval maNTai malarppOr yAr en2a" ( puRam:179:1-3 ) -->" ...wondering who would be able to make my begging bowl face upwards after I had turned it upside down not receiving any alms having decided that all the generous people on earth had ceased to exist..." puRa:286:03 " palar mItu nITTiya maNTai ..." -->" ...the begging bowl that had earlier been stretched out to many...." ".... akal maNTai tuLai urIi irappOr.." (puRa:235:10-11) --->"...of those who have begged so much as to have holes in their bowls... "pANar pacu mIn2 corinta maNTai pOla " ( kuRu:169:04) -->" ...like the earthern bowl used by fishermen to hold fresh fish..." Regards, Chandra _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Thu May 27 15:19:42 1999 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 17:19:42 +0200 Subject: St.Thomas Message-ID: <161227049493.23782.14028601734807963947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues The information about the origins of Christianity in India is mainly found in Greek sources (and to some extent Syriac). In these, Thomas was originally the apostle of Edessa (the was one of his many graves, too) and Persia. The very first mentions of Christians in India ascribe the mission to St.Bartholomew (this has been discussed in a German article by Professor A. Dihle). These Christians were visited with boat from Egypt, therefore they might belong to the south. The Acta Thomae - perhaps in the fourth century - describe Thomas' mission in India, but nothing refers specifically to the South. On the contrary, the name of India King, Gondophares, seems to be same as Gudnaphar, an Indo-Parthian ruler in the Northwest in the first century A.D. N.B. Indo-Parthian -- Thomas is still understood as the apostle of Persia and Parthia. When the Indian church became part of the Persian, it was natural that the apostle of the Persian church was introduced in India. Cosmas Indicopleustes in the sixth century was the first to make Thomas visiting South India, he also knew that the South Indian church was subject to the Persian. Thomas probably never visited India, but the tradition that he did is much earlier than the Portuguese. Unfortunately I have no references at hand (they are at home), but can send them afterwards, if needed. Greetings Klaus Karttunen From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Fri May 28 00:24:19 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 17:24:19 -0700 Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? Message-ID: <161227049547.23782.1841666121810587845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan [mailto:Palaniappa at AOL.COM] > Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 11:13 AM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? > > > Are there other languages where the word for day is based on > the word for > night? > I addition to the words nAl, nizal (which I had pointed out earlier) each employed in the senses of day and night or light and dark, we also have another word el used similarly in CT. This patteren goes to show further that nAL is not alone . el = day, night el = night "ellin2ir pukin2E" (malaipaDukaDAm: 416) -->"...if you enter at night time (or as night guests)" "el uRum mauval" (kuRu: 19: 4) -->"...the mullai flower belonging to the night" el = day, light "ellai emmoDu kazippi" (akam: 200) -->"..having spent the night with me.." "el iDai kaziyun2arkku Emam Aka" (perum:66) -->"...as a resting place for those who travel at day time" "el aRu pozutin2 mullai malarum mAlai" (kuRu: 234:2-3) -->"...the evening time with no light when the mullai blossoms.." el = day "ellum ellin2Ru" (kuRu: 390:1) -->"the day time has also dimmed away" regards Chandra _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 28 00:37:37 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 17:37:37 -0700 Subject: gandhamAdana? Message-ID: <161227049549.23782.16980094149676507815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I am puzzled over a reference I've encountered in the Ramayana'a YuddhakA.n.da (6.37.2, in the critical ed.) to "gandhamAdana." The only 'literary character' given in Apte's dictionary for this compound is RAva.na, yet this would not seem to fit the context, given that the list in this (and the following) verse evidently refers to the vAnaras who surround RAma to protect his fallen body. Can anyone shed some light on this reference? Am I overlooking something obvious? >>> Let me quote a famous Tevaram song by St. Appar (7th century CE). This lists mountains all over India and calls them "Siva's abodes. In this, gandhamAdana mount tops the list. It is important to note that Srisailam in Andhra Pradesh is called as North Parvata (Paruppatam) here. May be in order to distinguish it with the Malaya mountains which has been called "Paruppatam" (=Parvata) in other ancient Tamil texts. Malaya being called as "Paruppatam" (=Parvata) in Tamil texts by authors well versed in Sanskrit has important ramifications for identifying the Parvata mountain referred to in Vakyapadiya 2.486. Regards, N. Ganesan ----------------------------------------------- Appar Tevaram 6.71.9 kanta mAtan2am, kayilai malai, kEtAram, kALatti, kazukkun2Ram, kaN Ar aNNA, mantam Am pozil cAral vaTaparppatam, makEntira mA malai, nIlam, EmakUTam, vinta mA malai, vEtam, caiyam, mikka viyan2 potiyil malai, mEru, utayam, attam, intu cEkaran2 uRaiyum malaikaL maRRum EttuvOm iTar keTa nin2Ru EttuvOmE. Shiva's mountains: 1) kanta mAtan2am = gandhamAdana 2) kayilai = Kailash 3) kEtAram 4) KALatti = kALahasti 5) Kazhukkun2Ram = Thirukkazukkunram 6) aNNA = aNNAmalai which is pleasing to the eyes 7) vaTa paruppatam = Parvata in the North (Srisailam?) 8) mahentiram = mahendra, the big mountain 9) nIlam = the mountain, nIlam (indranIlaparvata?) 10) EmakUTam = hemakUTa 11) vintam = vindhya mounatin 12) vEtam = the mountain called vEda 13) caiyam = Caiyam mountain where Kaveri is born. 14) potiyil = the mountain, potiyil which is extensive and eminent. 15) mEru 16) utayam = the mountain where the sun rises. 17) attam = the mountain where the sun sets; we will praise the above-mentioned mountains and other mountains where civan2 who has a crescent on his head, dwells. we will praise without ceasing so that our sufferings may perish. - St. Appar (7th cent. CE) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Fri May 28 00:55:45 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 17:55:45 -0700 Subject: gandhamAdana? Message-ID: <161227049551.23782.11838764865699850180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: N. Ganesan [mailto:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 8:38 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: gandhamAdana? >..... > 13) caiyam = Caiyam mountain where Kaveri is born. paripATal says the river vaikai running by Madurai is flooded when it rains on the caiyam mountain! " purai kezu caiyam pozi mazai tAza neri tarUum vaiayip pun2al". (paripATAl:11:about 12-15?) > 14) potiyil = the mountain, potiyil which is > extensive and eminent. > 15) mEru mEru = himAlayAs? rA.rAghava aiyengkAr concludes so in his commentary to some kuRuntokai poem. He also cites texts in Tamil that state that ziva employed himAlayas as the bow in his battle with the three purams. Regards Chandra _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jpstephen at HOME.COM Fri May 28 00:58:52 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 20:58:52 -0400 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049553.23782.184881170363919516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my practical experience, although we Indians are such a mixed population, we are a very discriminatory and communal people. I would certainly not put this tendency just on the doorsteps of the Brahmins, if at all the Brahmins sinned, it is the sin of being as communal as every other Indian. India is made up of hundreds, if not thousands, of communities (castes). Inter-marriage among the different castes is prohibited other than in certain scheduled castes. If Brahmins were considered "upper caste" in the true sense, then why doesn't a non-brahmin family appreciate it when a member of their community marries a Brahmin. It should be thought of as a step up the ladder :-) Each of the hundreds of castes in India has different customs, cuisines, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if our segmenting ourselves into different castes originally just started out as small family units setting themselves apart. Sujatha (perplexed by all the casteism in India) ----- Original Message ----- From: Vishal Agarwal To: Sent: 27 May, 1999 6:33 PM Subject: Re: varna and jati > For an appraisal of the Anti-Brahmin rhetoric, please read the relevant > article at > > http://www.hindu.org/publications/ramswarup/index.html > > Suffice it to say that even the Mandal Commission report classifies Brahmin > subcastes under OBC's. For instance, Iyers are OBC's in AP, the Goswamis in > Delhi and so on. This shows that the notion of Brahmins being exploitative > is not tenable. > > Besides, very few people know that not all so called 'Kashmirian Brahmins' > are Brahmins or Pundits. When the very existence of Hindus in Kashmir became > imperilled during the reign of a Muslim emperor, the caste system was > dissolved and all were elevated to the Brahmin status. Refer: "Converted > Kashmir: A Memorial of mistakes" by Saigal. The honorary title 'Pundit' was > accorded to all Kashmiri Hindus by a Firman of a late Mughal Emperor. > > The truth is that Brahmins were at the forefront in the defence of the Hindu > society and are said to have offered a stout resistance even to the forces > of Alexander. The worst expolters of Sudras have actually been people of the > intermediate castes ( Including perhaps mine) > > Regards > > Vishal > From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Thu May 27 21:11:47 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 21:11:47 +0000 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit In-Reply-To: <19990526161325.28509.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227049513.23782.6994087902740883285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:13:25 -0700 > From: Swaminathan Madhuresan > I really meant Tamil Nadu and Kerala; You might have noticed > a tendency among Karnataka and A.P. high classes to disassociate themselves > from things Dravidian. All pervading Sanskrit impact in Karnataka > and A.P. may be the reason why word-final "a"s are dealt the same > way as the North. But only in personal names: this should be noted. A word like 'kumaara', 'viira' or 'prasaada' retains the final 'a' when it is used as a non-name; but in personal names we can see 'Mahaaviir' and 'Raamprasaad'. I have also not seen 'Naaraaya.na' without the final vowel when used as the name of the divinity. Old Kannada, like Telugu and Tamil, not only preserved the '-a' but also added a further suffix (manu.sya.m, mara.m, etc.); later this was softened by adding -u (manu.syanu, maravu), and in modern Kannada the ending usually disappears altogether (manu.sya, mara). But the '-a' remains, both in orthography and in pronunciation. RZ From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Thu May 27 21:11:47 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 21:11:47 +0000 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit In-Reply-To: <19990526164917.15259.rocketmail@web706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227049511.23782.9182004025473739355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:49:17 -0700 > From: Periannan Chandrasekaran > Maybe Madhuresan should have taken care to specify that these mappings > apply > for naming conventions before "modernization" due to influence from > Hindi or the northern culture. > Wouldn't the Kannada names have been narAyaNa, ranganAthA etc., until > a few generations ago? Yes, approximately just one generation ago. A very cursory reading of a variety of Kannada texts will reveal that this clipping of the final 'a' is very recent. It seems typical of the middle and lower classes of the more urbanised areas of southern Karnataka; not in rural areas, nor so much in northern Karnataka, nor among the more highly traditionally conscious segments of the population. It is not a caste-bound phenomenon. > I have also been curious about the "age" of names such as anil, sunil > among kannadigas. Were these popular say till the end of the last > century? It does not seem so. This is probably a combination of factors: (a) increased popular familiarity with northern India as a consequence of the Independence movement, (b) Hindi cinema, (c) names recently 'imported' from the north, without a local history, are not associated with particular castes and therefore favoured by people who do not want to stress their caste background. If your name is, for instance, Basavaraju, Lingaiah, Gururaja, Hayagrivacharya or Ankegowda, you are virtually branded as belonging to a certain caste. RZ From bprasad at NETCOM.COM Fri May 28 04:27:42 1999 From: bprasad at NETCOM.COM (Bal Prasad) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 21:27:42 -0700 Subject: Nambudris Message-ID: <161227049565.23782.13293080643475571722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is in regards to the debate on St Thomas having come to India. The following is paraphrased from a posting by someone in another forum. I do not vouch for its veracity :-) =================== - There is no evidence of Thomas having travelled further than Ethiopia and Arabia. - The myth was introduced by the Portugese in the 16th century. They used "Acts of Thomas" as the basis of the myth. This book is considered a forgery by even the Vatican and none of it is included in any standard bible. The settled land is called a desert kingdom - so it cannot be southern India. - Scholars like C-J De la Vallee-Poussin, Robert Garbe and Adolf Harnack wrote that it is a myth. - Stephen Neill (a bishop who lived in India) also wrote that it is a myth, in his 'History of Christianity in India' (Cambridge UP). =================== From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Fri May 28 01:50:41 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 21:50:41 -0400 Subject: Original Sanskrit names Message-ID: <161227049554.23782.18296124930501235590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Vishal Agarwal: Many thanks to you for your prompt response on the names of principal towns in the northern part of the sub-continent. Is Kanpur by any chance KarNapuri? Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Fri May 28 02:19:45 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 22:19:45 -0400 Subject: VarNa & JAti Message-ID: <161227049558.23782.2422520277242397215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: I've lived in Bangalore and Pune and have both Keralite and Telugu friends. In Bangalore, I never experienced any such anti brahmin sentiment. The poor of Andhra resent only the land owning Reddy and Kamma (I think). Ofcourse, the communist propoganda in Kerala is very much against the Namboodaris, quite justifiably in some areas. But the Namboodaris hold over religious activities is still strong and even endorsed by the public. And there are also smArthas living in Kerala in PAlakAd, who also haven't been treated so badly. Go to Pune and you'll know the influence and the respect that the brahmins wield in MahArAshtra. MY COMMENTS: This is absolutely right. In fact, it is true of coastal and Uttar Karnatak as well. In fact, in any part of South Kanara one can go dressed as a brahmin with dhoti, shikhA, yajn.opavIta and sectarian markings, you will not be insulted in any way. Actually, in some places you may be met with deference. Also, the ritual purity observed by the MalabAr-Karnatak brahmins is the same as is observed by the NambUdiris in KeraLa. They come straight from the temple tank in wet clothes after a ritual bath to enter the temple sanctum and the way is yielded to them by any non-brahmins. Further, in Dharmasthala, the HeggaDes have made sure that there are separate seatings for brahmins, Jains and Hindu non-brahmins for the afternoon mRShTAnna (meals). BNHebbar Infact, people from all four categories (Keralite, Telugu, Kannada, MarAti) that I've met, stoutly deny that their language is derived from Tamizh, and insist that it's Samskrutam which is the mother language. Even if they're actually wrong, it still reflects their respect and affinity towards Samskrutam, which could never have been achieved by coersion. MY COMMENTS: Though the VIrashaivas may be anti-brahmin, they are certainly NOT anti-Sanskrit. In fact, many of them are good Sanskrit scholars. One only need visit the Karnatak University in Dharwad. Also, I have a Syrian Christian Keralite friend whose father keeps lecturing to him of how Sanskrit is the true mother tongue of all the Keralites (Christians included!) B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Fri May 28 02:31:45 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 22:31:45 -0400 Subject: Dasharatha & DashagrIva Message-ID: <161227049560.23782.15485616031599849726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone tell me if any Indologist has "unravelled" the hidden meaning behind the VAlmIkan enigma: The son of Dasharatha (10 chariots?) killed DashagrIva (10 necks)? Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Fri May 28 02:46:57 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 27 May 99 22:46:57 -0400 Subject: TuLu & KonkaNI brahmins Message-ID: <161227049561.23782.18330764045783324311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Both TuLu and KonkaNI brahmins claim Northern Indian origins. The oral tradition existing among the TuLu brahmins is that they came from Ahicchatra which some have identified with a village near modern Rae-Bareilly in UP. One of my teachers, the late Dr. Padur Gururaja Bhatt agreed with this theory. Vide: Studies in Tuluva History and Culture by P.Gururaja Bhatt Among the KonkaNI brahmins, the SArasvats have long claimed that they came from KashmIr. The GauDa-SArasvats claim that they are a branch of the SArasvats who were brought from GauDadesha (Bengal) by Sage ParashurAma. Even today, they eat fish just like the Bengali brahmins. Vide: History of the Dakshinatya Sarasvats by V.N.Kudva Regards, B.N.Hebbar From ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 28 01:49:18 1999 From: ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM (Asha Naidu) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 01:49:18 +0000 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049556.23782.6563517305545713143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've lived in Bangalore and Pune and have both Keralite and Telugu friends. In Bangalore, I never experienced any such anti brahmin sentiment. The poor of Andhra resent only the land owning Reddy and Kamma (I think). I would agree that those Reddy's and Kamma's who own land AND ill treat those who work the land for them are resented - and quite justifiably so. However all Reddys and Kammas do not own land and land particularly in coastal Andhra is also owned by other communities including Brahmins, Kapu's and Komtis and some backward classes. As far as my knowledge goes there are both benevolent and exploitative landlords in all communities. I would relate bad treatment of minorities to abuse of power and not caste. Land holdings tend to be small - i.e. few people own hundreds of acres. Certainly the Brahmins do not deserve disproportionate blame and I agree with Sujatha that we Indians have discriminated against our own people. Yet, since Independence we have actually implemented both educational and job reservations for the deprived (not an easy thing for a poor country like India) and I find it an encouraging sign that backward classes and scheduled classes are organising themselves politically and participate in the democratic process. An interesting article is available at http://www.businessweek.com/cgi-bin/bwdaily_full?right=/bwdaily/dnflash/may1999/nf90520c.htm. Infact, people from all four categories (Keralite, Telugu, Kannada, MarAti) that I've met, stoutly deny that their language is derived from Tamizh, and insist that it's Samskrutam which is the mother language. Even if they're actually wrong, it still reflects their respect and affinity towards Samskrutam, which could never have been achieved by coersion. Yes there are some Telugu people who are unaware of/deny the undeniably Dravidian roots of Telugu. At certain stages Telugu became heavily sanskritized - and as you say it may reflect their choice of loyalty - I am not sure. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 28 09:40:42 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 02:40:42 -0700 Subject: KAn.chI v. SRngeri Message-ID: <161227049571.23782.11576647706775616545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Balaji Hebbar wrote: >Dear Mr. Sundaresan: > >Perhaps you are the best equipped on the list to answer the >following: > I would rather have not dissected this issue on this forum, but as you ask me specifically, I am obliged to respond. Be warned that I will be considered a biased source by many people, and this is a particularly sensitive topic for many. The timing of this question is particularly odd - May 30 is the 106th birth anniversary of the late Sankaracharya of Kanchi, and already highly laudatory articles are starting to appear everywhere. See for example, the May 28 issue of The Hindu, the Madras newspaper. There are many on this list who are followers or admirers of the Kanchi matha and its heads. The following is not meant to be disrespectful to the Kanchi Acharyas, so I hope it is taken in the right spirit. >1. Why is the KAn.chI KAmakoTi PItham always excluded among >the "ShankarAcAryas". Why just the four ones? > Dasanami Sannyasi tradition identifies only the four Mathas at Sringeri, Puri, Dwaraka and Badrinath (called Amnaya mathas) as having been established by Sankaracharya. Sadananda Giri has listed some 50 odd mathas of the Advaita tradition according to old records of the Dasanami Akhadas. Kanchipuram is not listed here. Either this matha is much more recent, or somebody 'fixed' the record many centuries ago, and successfully wiped out any mention of Kanchi till the mid-19th century. It should be obvious which alternative is more probable. The ten suffixes used by Sannyasis in the Advaita tradition are nominally affiliated with the primary four monasteries. Specifically, the suffixes Puri, Bharati and Sarasvati have been associated with Sringeri matha. And all the Kanchi Sankaracharyas to date have been Sarasvatis. Why does any tradition arise? I believe the tradition of four original mathas in the Advaita tradition is based on historical reality. However, there are numerous Sankaracharyas in India today. If the Indian press would have its way, even the Jeers of the Ahobila math and other Srivaishnava institutions would be called Sankaracharyas. More seriously, I don't think anybody from the four Amnaya mathas grudges the title of Sankaracharya to the Kanchi mathadhipatis or to those of the other mathas. The 1998 Kumbha Mela was attended by more than 30 "Sankaracharyas". To my knowledge, there are only two Advaita institutions whose mathadhipatis do not want to be called Sankaracharyas. These are the Kavale matha in Goa and the Chitrapura matha in Shirali, both associated with Konkani speaking Gaud Sarasvats. The Kavale mathadhipatis are called Gaudacharyas, and the Chitrapura matha was originally a split from the Kavale matha. Other than the four original seats, there are Sankaracharyas at Karavir in Kolhapur, Gaya in Bihar, Bhanpura in UP(?), Pushpagiri in AP, Kudali and Hampi in Karnataka etc. Some of these other Sankaracharyas are even quite famous - Swami Rama, who established a center in Honesdale, Pennsylvania, was once the Sankaracharya of Karavir. The current Karavir Sankaracharya, Swami Vidyasankara Bharati, was recently in the news for converting Christians to Hinduism in Maharashtra. Swami Satyamitrananda Giri, former Sankaracharya of Bhanpura has set up the "Bharat Mata" mandir in Hardwar, which attracts crowds all through the year. None of these other institutions, however, seem to have the kind of political influence wielded by the Kanchi matha. But if one prefers a number bigger than four, there is no reason to restrict it to five, in order to include Kanchi and exclude the rest. Many of these have perhaps much older than the Kanchi matha too. Why not settle for the magic number 108? There are other problems involved. If at all somebody like Arjun Appadurai or Chris Fuller gets around to researching the history of the priests at the Kanchi Kamakshi temple, the history of the Kanchi matha will have to be examined. The tradition that Sankaracharya consecrated the Sricakra at the Kamakshi temple is acknowledged by all, and is seen in the name kAncyAm SrIcakra rAjakhya yantra sthApana dIkshitaH, that is part of the traditional nAmAvali of Sankaracharya. The distinction between a monastic institution and a Sricakra in a temple seems to be largely lost on people nowadays. However, I must draw your attention to a small Tamil text called Sri Kamakshi Ambal Sthala Varalaru, written by Kamakoti Sastri, the Sthanika of the Kamakshi temple, in which he identifies the Kamakoti Pitham with the Sricakra installed in the temple, not with the matha. This is exactly what the pundits of the Amnaya mathas have been saying all along, that the name Kamakoti Pitham did not originally refer to a monastic establishment at all. I'll answer your fourth question next. >4. If Shankara established an apostolic seat at KAn.chI, was it >because KAn.chI was the only one of the 7 holy Hindu places >which was in the South? AND/OR perhaps it was a seat of >Buddhism and the native city of Buddhist savants such as >Bodhidharma, DinnAga etc. > As the majority tradition does not say that Sankara established an apostolic seat at Kanchi, there is no real answer to the question about the reason. Nor for that matter is there any real answer to a question why Sankara chose the places where he is traditionally said to have established mathas. However, Kanchi is the only southern mokshapuri, therefore Sankara established a matha there - this is the argument found in the old Kanchi matha literature. Kanchi was a big center of Buddhism, therefore Sankara established a matha there - this is the argument proposed by modern, Western educated followers of the matha, who are just beginning to acknowledge the Buddhist heritage of Kanchipuram. Other arguments I've seen are - Kanchi is the nAbhisthAna of the entire earth and is the location of the oDDiyAna pITha - this is offered by those followers who have an affinity for the tantras. Sankara established the four Amnaya mathas for his disciples, Kanchi was established for himself - this is another standard argument, which overlooks the necessity of having to say what happened there after Sankara's time, if his four disciples were busy elsewhere, in their own respective establishments. None of these arguments really addresses the question of why the widespread Dasanami Sannyasin tradition has not mentioned any matha at Kanchipuram in its old records. The 'if' in your question is a very big 'if' and the possible answer 'yes, Sankara did establish a monastic seat at Kanchi' is not supported either by tradition or by critical historical research. There are some well-known scholars from Madras university, whose obliging "research" has "conclusively proved" that Sankara made Kanchi his primary center. Never mind that even the only Sankaravijaya text "critically edited" and published from Madras university says that Sankara spent 12 out of his life of 32 years at Sringeri. However, one can either have tradition, or critical history, but I really don't know what to call a newly invented tradition masquerading as critical history. There are other issues - out of the seven mokshapuris, Ayodhya, Mathura, Maya (Hardwar), Kasi, Kanchi, Avantika (Ujjain) and Dwaraka, what about the other places? Kasi and Ujjain figure largely in all the traditional Sankaravijayas, but there are no mathas in these places with the kind of claims as put forth in favor of Kanchi. Nor are there any major establishments in Ayodhya or Mathura. There are numerous Advaita institutions in Hardwar, but none of them seeks to contest the priority or the status of the Badrinath matha. There is an original matha in Dwaraka, but I have never seen any claim that Sankara chose this place for its reputation as the only mokshapuri in the west. So what makes the mokshapuri in the south so very different from the other six, as far as the history of Advaita Vedanta is concerned? >2. Why is the ShankarAcArya of SRngeri considered primus inter >pares (first among equals) even among the four. Was it because >SRngeri was given to Shankara's favorite disciple Sureshvara? > Perhaps. One should not also forget Swamis Vidyasankara, Bharati Tirtha and Vidyaranya in the 14th century, whose names are immortalized in early Vijayanagara inscriptions. In the 14th century and after, the prestige of Sringeri grew far beyond that of the rest. >3. Why this intense rivalry between KAn.chI and SRngeri >especially? I have seen this in quite a few disciples >belonging to both pIthas. This you should ask those who are staunch followers of these mathas, and a whole litany of reasons will pop out from both sides. In my opinion, it boils down to one thing - the competition from other mathadhipatis to claim the same honors as used to be reserved for the Sringeri Sankaracharyas in Vijayanagara and the subsequent Nayaka kingdoms. As for the evidence from the textual sources (Sankaravijaya literature and Dasanami records), please see my forthcoming paper that will appear soon in The International Journal of Hindu Studies. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 28 11:43:58 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 04:43:58 -0700 Subject: VarNa & JAti Message-ID: <161227049572.23782.831654940736097556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Further, in Dharmasthala, the HeggaDes have made sure that >there are separate seatings for brahmins, Jains and Hindu >non-brahmins for the afternoon mRShTAnna (meals). BNHebbar In a public place of dining, there would be some problems in Tamil Nadu to ask for two divided, separate seatings for Brahmins and others; In 1920s, when V. V. S. Ayyar implemented this in a school run by Congress, there were some protests. Over the years, I have seen that the name boards with names like BrahmaNaaL Cafe advertising separate seats for Brahmins have declined. Probably the old system will return. Regards. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri May 28 14:10:59 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 07:10:59 -0700 Subject: VarNa & JAti Message-ID: <161227049574.23782.5016453741342158153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Overlooking the different ethnic mixes in caste categories and across the varNa ladder, anthropologists do not explain the varNa (color) gradation by means of "Shudras getting baked in the sun". Usually, social customs imposed by the top varNa such as the `sambandham' relations of Nambudiris is cited. Also, it would be wrong to conclude that there are no tensions between brahmins and others in KarnATak and Andhra and to assume that everybody accepts that varnashrama system is beneficial to each of them. After all, the veerashaiva movement, vehemently anti-brahminical in origins and growth,was born in Karnataka and A.P. Eg., Palkuriki Somanatha's Basavapuranamu and the Kannada Jain-Brahmana rivalries. Greetings, SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Fri May 28 14:57:02 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 07:57:02 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049580.23782.6503769955253984666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Zydenbos [mailto:zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE] > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 5:12 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit > > > > Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:49:17 -0700 > > From: Periannan Chandrasekaran > > > Maybe Madhuresan should have taken care to specify that > these mappings > > apply > > for naming conventions before "modernization" due to influence from > > Hindi or the northern culture. > > Wouldn't the Kannada names have been narAyaNa, ranganAthA > etc., until > > a few generations ago? > > Yes, approximately just one generation ago. A very cursory reading of > a variety of Kannada texts will reveal that this clipping of the > final 'a' is very recent. It seems typical of the middle and lower > classes of the more urbanised areas of southern Karnataka; not in > rural areas, nor so much in northern Karnataka, nor among the more > highly traditionally conscious segments of the population. It is not > a caste-bound phenomenon. > > > I have also been curious about the "age" of names such as > anil, sunil > > among kannadigas. Were these popular say till the end of the last > > century? > > It does not seem so. This is probably a combination of factors: (a) > increased popular familiarity with northern India as a consequence of > the Independence movement, (b) Hindi cinema, (c) names recently > 'imported' from the north, As is evidenced by clipping of the word-final "a" in Karnataka to produce "Karnatak" by a kanndaiga himself in the midst of this very discussion :-) ------------------------------ From: Balaji Hebbar Subject: Re: VarNa & JAti .......... ............... This has never been a problem anywhere in coastal Karnatak. I would even add Uttar Karnatak. ............ Regards, B.N.Hebbar -------------- :-)) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 28 14:59:25 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 07:59:25 -0700 Subject: Buddhist revival movement in India Message-ID: <161227049578.23782.6809153659813189334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri. Hebbar expressed a desire that Buddhism be revived in India again, some time ago. This has already been done. In late 19th century by Tamils in Madras. They were connected with the white Buddhist H. S. Olcott. In fact, they got the then Govt. of Madras presidency to classify themselves as belonging to a separate religion. Books, PhD thesis are available about this early attempt to revive Buddhism. It is interesting that B. R. Ambedkar got the clue from them, corresponded with them, before he made Buddhism grow again in India. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri May 28 15:23:26 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 08:23:26 -0700 Subject: VarNa & JAti Message-ID: <161227049585.23782.5246213503391939761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Personally, I would prefer the "secular, modern" meal area in MaThs rather than to get branded! I would imagine most Indians, indeed anybody else, would do the same. Best wishes. --- Balaji Hebbar wrote: > To further comment on this: > > I forgot there is also a "fourth secular modern" meal area in > DharmasthaLa with table meals for those who choose not to sit > in any of the 3 panktis mentioned before. This came to my > mind because when I had taken an American Jesuit priest a few > years back, the HeggaDE (after our interview with him) asked > his assistant that we be seated in the "secular fourth area"! > Normally when I go there with my family, we go there ddressed > like traditional MAdhva-VaishNava brahmins and we are asked to > sit in the brahmin dining area. > > This has never been a problem anywhere in coastal Karnatak. I > would even add Uttar Karnatak. The LingAyats and the Jains > there have their own ritual and dietary restrictions and they > fully understand if brahmins have their own. There is a sort > of mutual respect. In fact both LingAyats as well as Jains do > not allow people who do not belong to their groups into their > kitchen areas. > > Regards, > B.N.Hebbar > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri May 28 16:14:28 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 09:14:28 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049589.23782.7104624158190438052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Infact, people from all four categories (Keralite, Telugu, Kannada, >MarAti) that I've met, stoutly deny that their language is derived from >Tamizh, and insist that it's Samskrutam which is the mother language. Even >if they're actually wrong, it still reflects their respect and affinity >towards Samskrutam, which could never have been achieved by coersion. Contradicts the genetic relationships between languages as taught in basic Linguistics courses. Is this popular view another variant of what we call here, Indic paradigms of knowledge and scholarship? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From gopal at AERO.IISC.ERNET.IN Fri May 28 04:51:22 1999 From: gopal at AERO.IISC.ERNET.IN (K V N Gopal) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 10:21:22 +0530 Subject: vaDama etc In-Reply-To: <19990513233738.82222.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049567.23782.4909989527611341828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 13 May 1999, nanda chandran wrote: That there have been conversions from Smartha to Vaishnava and vice-versa will be clear when the history of many of the brahmin communities over the centuries are examined. An example is the history of the community of 'Puduru Dravidas' in Andhra to which i belong. The group appears to have migrated to Andhra around the 11th-12thc A.D. The elders claim to belong to the 'kanDramANikya bR^ihaccharaNam' group. But we have both Smartas and SriVaishnavas amongst us sharing the same family name and gotra with some families appearing to have links to Ramanuja and Yamunacharya and other early SriVaishnava Acharyas. Some of them have become Smartas again sometime after the fall of the Vijayanagar empire. Gopal From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Fri May 28 14:41:20 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 10:41:20 -0400 Subject: VarNa & JAti Message-ID: <161227049576.23782.15627755957048923740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To further comment on this: I forgot there is also a "fourth secular modern" meal area in DharmasthaLa with table meals for those who choose not to sit in any of the 3 panktis mentioned before. This came to my mind because when I had taken an American Jesuit priest a few years back, the HeggaDE (after our interview with him) asked his assistant that we be seated in the "secular fourth area"! Normally when I go there with my family, we go there ddressed like traditional MAdhva-VaishNava brahmins and we are asked to sit in the brahmin dining area. This has never been a problem anywhere in coastal Karnatak. I would even add Uttar Karnatak. The LingAyats and the Jains there have their own ritual and dietary restrictions and they fully understand if brahmins have their own. There is a sort of mutual respect. In fact both LingAyats as well as Jains do not allow people who do not belong to their groups into their kitchen areas. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 28 17:56:04 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 10:56:04 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049591.23782.9905515086207610285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sameer Abbas writes : >1. This is a bad example. The following reference at `The Revival of >Dravidian Religion' homepage, shows that the Brahmins helped the >Greeks to invade India: Kautilya the Brahmin engineered the Greek invasion >by means of his pupil Chandragupta requesting arms and soldiers from >Alexander in order to overthrow the Sudra Kingdom of Magadha : >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1412/brahmins.html Chanakya the brAhmana deposed off the Nanda kings of Shudra origin to install Chandragupta as the new emperor. So what was Chandragupta's caste - Shudra! >The site answers the question `Why has Indian history been a series of >invasions?' with the answer `Because the Brahmins engineered them'. >A nexus between invading Muslims and invading Brahmins is also alleged. So that they could cut their own throats? History also shows that the Moslems targeted the brahmins specifically, as they formed the top caste, who kept the flame of Hinduism burning strong. And what would they gain by such motives. It couldn't be for money, as they were anyhow poor and had voluntarily renounced wealth. >2. The following reference reveals more about how the Brahmins came to >power under the British : ? http://www.khalistan.net/gskhalsa.htm The only reason that brahmins came to power under the Brits was that they were both educated and honest. Plus they were the traditional leaders of the community. But even the resistance movement against the Brits, was for most part led by the brahmins - Gokhale, Tilak, Subramaniya BhArati, Nehru etc And not all brahmins used peaceful methods. VAnjinAthan, who is still hailed in Tamil Nadu for assassinating the British collector Ash, was a brahmin. So were quite a few MaharAshtrian revolutionaries who paid with their lives for such daring attempts. >3. The following Hindutva reference praises the English for having >encouraged and created Hindutva : > http://hindubooks.org/HinduPhe/index.htm >and shows the manifestly pro-English bias of the RSS. Frank and open. I'm sure it is! >4. Most of the officers who `collaborated' with the Muslims were Brahmins. >Many of the officials under Mogul rule were Brahmins. Many Brahmins >received grants from temples, and actively supported Muslim >rule. You should read the works of Sage VidhyAranya, who organized the Vijayanagar empire as the Hindu bastion against the invading hordes of Islam and get his opinions on the subject! >5. The Brahmins of Sankara Mutt actively supported all Muslim rulers, >and during the Independance struggle supported the Nizam of Hyderabad >against the lower caste Dravidian Telugus. Many Brahmins now oppose >anything Muslim, but their ancestors actively `collaborated'. So did the >Rajputs, who helped the Moghuls conquer the south. Here, again, the >fraternity of the `white races' (Brahmins, Rajputs, Foreign Muslims) comes >to the fore. In the first place, the battle wasn't between the Nizam and a few low caste Telugus. Newly independent India wanted to annex Hyderabad and those Telugus who supported it came from all castes. And the two Shankara mutts of the South are in Kanchi and Shringeri, quite a distance from Hyderabad. How could they have collaborated with the Nizam? And what would they gain from such collaboration? >Indeed, most of the Brahmins I have met went solely by skin color. They >would keep company with a fellow European white or a `white' Muslim, but >would have nothing to do with `lower caste' Sudra blacks. Hence, most >Hare Rama Hare Krishna followers are whites, very few are blacks. I'm from Tamil Nadu. I would be more comfortable with a Tamil speaking person, whichever caste he might belong to, whichever color he might be - since I share more things in common with him culturally - than any European or Muslim, whatever their 'color' might be! As Conon Doyle or Agatha Christie, point out : In all situations, look for the people who benefit most - in most cases they are the culprits. And I don't see any benefit to the brAhmana, in any of these situations. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Fri May 28 15:08:56 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 11:08:56 -0400 Subject: KAn.chI Message-ID: <161227049582.23782.9734472245208720544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Sundaresan: Many thanks to you for your sincere efforts for sending me detailed answers to my 4 questions. I understand that there will be people both in this list and outside who will disagree with you. But that is the name of the game. That will not in any way diminish your replies. You obviously have done a lot of research in your maTha traditions as I have done in our MAdhva tradition. One question and one comment. QUESTION: Do the other lesser "ShankarAcAryas" say of KUDli, GayA etc. acknowledge the supremacy of the 4 Super-ShankarAcAryas? OR are they independent? COMMENT: The ChitrApur-ShirALi MaTha is a SArasvat maTha and not GauDa-Sarasvat. The Kavle (Kaivalya) MaTha in Nasik governs the small group of GauDa-SArasvat SmArtas. The abbotts of ChitrApur-ShirALi MaTha belong to the "Ashrama" order. The current reigning abbott (as far I know) is ParijNAnAshrama. His predecessor, AnandAshram was an extremely charismatic abbott and was held in high regard by the SArasvat community. The abbotts of the Kavle MaTha belong to the "SarasvatI" order. The current head of the Kavle MaTha (as far as I know) is SaccidAnanda SarasvatI. Also, you might add to your group, two other SmArta MaThas. These are the EDanIr and BALakudru MaThas. They govern a small group of TuLu-speaking SmArta brahmins. The EDanIr MaTha which is the larger and better known of the two is based at Kasargod (Cannanore Distt., KeraLa). Regards, B.N.Hebbar From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Fri May 28 18:53:18 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 11:53:18 -0700 Subject: VarNa & JAti Message-ID: <161227049596.23782.7132088118642677325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Nanda Chandran wrote: > ..... > quite justifiably in some areas. But the Namboodaris hold over > religious > activities is still strong and even endorsed by the public. And there > are > also smArthas living in Kerala in PAlakAd, who also haven't been > treated > so > badly. Go to Pune and you'll know the influence and the respect that > the > brahmins wield in MahArAshtra. . > > Infact, people from all four categories (Keralite, Telugu, Kannada, > MarAti) > that I've met, stoutly deny that their language is derived from > Tamizh, > and > insist that it's Samskrutam which is the mother language. Even if > they're > actually wrong, What "even if"! as if it is not well-established linguistic fact that at least the first three belong to the Dravidian family? >it still reflects their respect and affinity towards > Samskrutam, which could never have been achieved by coersion. > Well...it can be done "covertly" over centuries as has been done in reality. North India had repeated physical invasions that altered the cultural lanscape in an overt manner. But the South, especially Tamil Nadu, was invaded culturally and its cultural heritage was marauded slowly but steadily. thEvAram etc. left in the hands of temple priests for preservation were burnt as Ahuthi in temple yagnas and dropped into fire along with the ghee it was used to scoop (UVS Iyer very poignantly notes this in his biography where he had to call in a sympathetic British revenue officer to save the mansucripts at a temple in South Tamil NAdu) or left to termites to be converted into earth. thEvAram mansucripts were destroyed inside the Chidambaram temple by the priests and were saved by the Chola Emperor Raja Rajan by outwitting the priests who told him that the three canonized saints had to appear in person to open the storage room...he brought the golden statuettes of them... What we are left with is 20% or so of campan-thar's, 15% of appar's, 2% or so of cun-tharar's (who alone had composed 38000 quatrains). thEvAram (along with cangkam era paripATal) are the earliest krithis (poems set to specific meldoy and annotated as such) available in Indian history. The irony is that two of these composers were themselves brahmins. Destructive copying of Original tamil books on music and drama was undertaken. UVS Iyer notes that as recently as decades before him, carnatic music composiitons in Tamil were being destroyed systematically and laments why anyone would do so. The undisputed king of Tamil krithis and complex rhythms arunakiri nAtar's compositions suffered a similar fate: we have less than 15% of his compositions. Even the so-called (thiruvArUr) Trinity of carnatic music (dhikshitar, satri and iyer) who composed in Telugoid (yep, more Skt than Dravidian Telugu) and Skt. is really an artificial one. Just before them there had been the cIkAzi Trinity (mArimuththAp piLLai, thANdavar pillai and arunAcalak kavirAyar) who composed prolifically in Tamil with innovations in music...not only were they ignored but their works were destroyed. But the non-tamil works of the thiruvArUr trinity composed right in the heart of Tamilakam about the same time frame are available intact! Having destroyed the native intellectual and cultural foundation, it is easier to "convince" people of alternatives. Like the one below a netter asserts that thEvAram lost the popularity contest because it was in "pure" Tamil and that brahmins while rightfully preventing others from entering the music field also provided the same chance to everyone: ------------------------------- http://www.carnaticmusic.com/discuss.htm Posted By:-[deleted] Posted On: 5/14/99 7:36:41 PM It is a pity that people without research background and with a broad view make 'blamming' as the tool to find solutions to problems. Forget the Brahmins. What has happened to Bhakti songs of Nayanmars? Because they were in pure Tamil, hence was larnt only by 'OOduvaars', they are not popular as they should have been ... While Brahmin families encourage and help their children from childhood to learn Carnatic music, most others have their mundane chores, leavcing music, dance etc., to the sides. In any field, it is a human nature to preserve once livlihood - music - and prevent others coming up. Remember, every one has same chance. Let Mr. Siva and Unnikrishan take an oath to create 1000 super carnatic musicians from non-brahmins, there by prove their points. ------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Fri May 28 15:56:54 1999 From: cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (george cardona) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 11:56:54 -0400 Subject: correction Message-ID: <161227049587.23782.10849851990297699794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Colleagues, For those of you who regularly read the JAOS, a correction of an error on p. 93b (section 3.4, line 11) of JAOS 119.1: replace 'VAcaspatimizra' by 'MaNDandmizra'. My thanks to E. Stern and apologies to all. Best wishes, George Cardona From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri May 28 07:45:03 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 13:15:03 +0530 Subject: varna and jati In-Reply-To: <19990527223352.28421.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049569.23782.2252906515763344891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 27 May 1999, Vishal Agarwal wrote: > The truth is that Brahmins were at the forefront in the defence of the Hindu > society and are said to have offered a stout resistance even to the forces > of Alexander. 1. This is a bad example. The following reference at `The Revival of Dravidian Religion' homepage, shows that the Brahmins helped the Greeks to invade India: Kautilya the Brahmin engineered the Greek invasion by means of his pupil Chandragupta requesting arms and soldiers from Alexander in order to overthrow the Sudra Kingdom of Magadha : http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1412/brahmins.html The site answers the question `Why has Indian history been a series of invasions?' with the answer `Because the Brahmins engineered them'. A nexus between invading Muslims and invading Brahmins is also alleged. 2. The following reference reveals more about how the Brahmins came to power under the British : http://www.khalistan.net/gskhalsa.htm 3. The following Hindutva reference praises the English for having encouraged and created Hindutva : http://hindubooks.org/HinduPhe/index.htm and shows the manifestly pro-English bias of the RSS. Frank and open. 4. Most of the officers who `collaborated' with the Muslims were Brahmins. Many of the officials under Mogul rule were Brahmins. Many Brahmins received grants from temples, and actively supported Muslim rule. 5. The Brahmins of Sankara Mutt actively supported all Muslim rulers, and during the Independance struggle supported the Nizam of Hyderabad against the lower caste Dravidian Telugus. Many Brahmins now oppose anything Muslim, but their ancestors actively `collaborated'. So did the Rajputs, who helped the Moghuls conquer the south. Here, again, the fraternity of the `white races' (Brahmins, Rajputs, Foreign Muslims) comes to the fore. Indeed, most of the Brahmins I have met went solely by skin color. They would keep company with a fellow European white or a `white' Muslim, but would have nothing to do with `lower caste' Sudra blacks. Hence, most Hare Rama Hare Krishna followers are whites, very few are blacks. Samar From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU Fri May 28 03:46:11 1999 From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 13:46:11 +1000 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049563.23782.400291020400109868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To everyone on the Indology list, I'm the political science student of Dr Richard Barz who was searching for information on the terms varna and jati.I've been overwhelmed by the response, and would like to express my gratitude to you all for your very generous help.All the informatuon and suggested readings have been wonderful. Thanks again, Rahni Ennor From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 28 20:58:06 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 13:58:06 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049597.23782.18131431465824884922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At the outset let me state that, it would be better to abandon this discussion on 'varna and jati', since we are unable to argue objectively without getting emotionally involved. But with respect to the post by Chandrashekaran I would just like to point out one main thing : >thEvAram etc. left in the hands of temple priests for preservation were >thEvAram mansucripts were destroyed inside the Chidambaram temple by the >priests >UVS Iyer notes that as recently as decades before him, carnatic music >composiitons in Tamil were being >destroyed systematically and laments why >anyone would do so. Why did the ThevAram, the music scripts get into the hands of the brahmin priests in the first place? Why should they preserve it for the dravidians? Let's suppose that the brahmins had not preserved the Vedic knowledge themselves and let it into the hands of the Brits who destroyed it. Then is there any cause to complain? It is the duty of those who belong to the culture, to preserve and sustain their culture. >not only were they ignored but their works were destroyed. Why do you seek recognition from the brahmins? They ignore it because it is not part of their culture. Isn't it your duty to preserve and sustain your culture? >What has happened to Bhakti songs of Nayanmars? You tell me! >Let Mr. Siva and Unnikrishan take an oath to create 1000 super >carnatic >musicians from non-brahmins, there by prove their points. Why should they? Why can't the dravidians indigenously do so? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 28 21:53:40 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 14:53:40 -0700 Subject: KAn.chI Message-ID: <161227049601.23782.4052133239576089180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >QUESTION: Do the other lesser "ShankarAcAryas" say of KUDli, >GayA etc. acknowledge the supremacy of the 4 >Super-ShankarAcAryas? OR are they independent? Generally, everybody is independent, and there is no centralized authority. For the AmnAya maThas themselves, their primary reason for setting themselves apart from the rest is their traditional priority in history. When it comes to personal relations, other rules hold. For example, Virupaksha Sastri, who was a vidyA-guru of Swami Chandrasekhara Bharati of Sringeri, later became the head of Kudali matha, with the name Valukesvara Bharati. The "higher" status of Sringeri did not stop the Sringeri Swami from acknowledging and paying respects to his teacher. >the small group of GauDa-SArasvat SmArtas. The abbotts of >ChitrApur-ShirALi MaTha belong to the "Ashrama" order. The >current reigning abbott (as far I know) is ParijNAnAshrama. Swami Parijnanashrama of Chitrapura passed away in 1991. The seat was lying vacant till 1997. The new Swami is called Sadyojata Shankarashrama. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 28 22:13:09 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 15:13:09 -0700 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049608.23782.6349866236804503440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephens wrote: >I have to agree with Mr. Nanda Chandran on this. Why can't the non-brahmins >become more culturally aware and learn carnatic music, bharatanatyam etc? > Wait a minute. Except for the composers, performance wise, Carnatic music and Bharatanatyam were both largely non-Brahmin preserves till the Brahmins took to the arts in large numbers within the last two centuries. Name one Bharatanayam master who does not have a Pillai in the guru lineage, or who is not a Pillai himself. Name one Brahmin who plays the Nadaswaram or the Thavil, the temple instruments. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 28 22:20:15 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 15:20:15 -0700 Subject: HastAmalaka etc. Message-ID: <161227049612.23782.11368538904944039005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, Hastamalaka has always been associated with the village of Srivali or Sribali or Shivalli, in the Sankaravijaya texts. The typical story is that Sankara was travelling from Mookambika to Gokarna and passed through this village, where Hastamalaka became his disciple. The story of Hastamalaka installing Krishna in Udipi is also known to one Sankaravijaya text, but the story has come down in a highly garbled form, perhaps because of the confusion caused by some families converting to Madhva's school and others remaining aligned with Sankaran Advaita. I've discussed this briefly in the paper I referred to in my earlier mail. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Fri May 28 22:30:22 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 15:30:22 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit In-Reply-To: <19990528145702.7473.rocketmail@web707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227049614.23782.17044288513994438272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > As is evidenced by clipping of the word-final "a" in Karnataka to > produce > "Karnatak" by a kanndaiga himself in the midst of this very discussion > :-) > ------------------------------ > From: Balaji Hebbar > ............... > This has never been a problem anywhere in coastal Karnatak. I > would even add Uttar Karnatak. ............ All the more humorous since Mr. Hebbar is actually originally a Srivaishnava of Tamil origin... Interesting how one's environment changes one's speech patterns... Mani From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 28 23:06:48 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 16:06:48 -0700 Subject: Dr.Thompson' dating of the RV: Parts 1 and II Message-ID: <161227049617.23782.600177049732642705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Following is a brief response only on pertinent points. A detailed response will be sent personally to Dr. Vassilkov since I donot want to inflict myself on the list members. VA WROTE: a fundamental flaw of logic....If I can not question Dr.Thompson's date just because I do not have a suggestion for the same then by the same token I cannot criticise Silvestor Stallone's acting because I cannot act better than him... BHADANTA YV WROTE IN RESPONSE TO ABOVE: Sorry, dear Mr Agrawal, but at that point I have to return the words about "flaw of logic" back to you. Yes, you can criticise an actor's art not being a better actor yourself. But in the field of science there works another set of rules. If you criticise a scholar's work you have to be yourself a scholar competent in the relevant field of studies, you should have your own firm opinion on the same subject and if you reject a scholar's theory (using even such harsh words as "absurd" and "absurdity"), you should first analyse the facts this theory was based on and then suggest a better, alternative way to explain these facts. VA RESPONDS: Again, your logic is wrong. A detailed rebuttal/response will be sent privately. Suffice it to say, that I am well cognizant with the 'scientific method'. BHADANTA YV WROTE: What surprised me most of all in your initial posting was that you evidently had no clear idea of the facts Prof. Thompson had based his hypothesis on. You wrote that he based his dating "on a comparison of the other Indo-European languages" (?). It means that you do not know his system of arguments at all. George Thompson undertook a scrupulous linguistic, historical and cultural study of many passages in Rgveda and Avesta, which demonstrated quite convinsingly that there are some parallels (sometimes formulaic) and contrasts, which made one believe that Vedic Indians and Avestan Iranians were conscious of each other's existence and there was even a kind of religious "polemics" between them. If so, Rgveda and Avesta can not be separated by many centuries, as was the common opinion until now. Now, the question arises: how can we date the period when Rgveda and the Old Avesta were at least partly contemporary? Prof. Thompson is inclined to date this period as about 1000 BCE - making the Rgveda a little "younger" than it is usually thought to be and closer to the date of Zoroaster (which is, according to him, around 1000 BCE). VA RESPONDS: As you have yourself acknowledged, the parellels between the Avestan texts and the Vedas are well known. Did I deny that? You have incorporated just a fragment of my 'Siddhanta', leaving the other portion. This has resulted in the confusion at your end. But more of this later. There is tons of literature available on the subject and I am familiar with at least some of it. BHADANTA YV WROTE: By the way, I am inclined to disagree with Prof. Thompson's final conclusion. I think the RV (its oldest core) is probably at least several centuries older than 1000 BCE. But I can not ignore the facts discovered and proven by G.Thompson. And before I proceed with my own dating, I have to explain these facts in some different way. In particular, it seems to me that we should better explain the synchronisms between Rgveda and Avesta not by way of making Rgveda "younger", but rather by accepting an earlier date for Zoroaster (some Iranists now tend to date him by the middle of the 2nd century BCE). VA RESPONDS: Correct. The works of M. Boyce etc. have lead to this conclusion (This was pointed out to me by a List member. I was aware of some other articles on the same issue). So, again, even you have been forced to reject this date. What is the problem if I do the same using the Theory of the Historical Development of Indian Texts? BHADANTA YV WROTE: But you, Mr Agrawal, did not even try to get acquainted with the texts and facts Prof. Thompson had referred to (which you could do with the help of INDOLOGY's archive). You simply rejected his dating, calling it "absurd", for the only reason that it does not fit with the results of your own calculations. You even accused Prof. Thompson in "the neglect of a rigorous study of Sanskrit literature" - quite undeservedly, as has been shown in the recent postings (May 21 & 22) by Mr. Venkataraman Iyer. VA RESPONDS: There! We get the other fragment of my 'Siddhanta.' This unwarrantated splitting of the sentence has led to the misinterpretation (Vakyabheda). As far as Mr. Iyer is concerned, I still have to respond to his posting- so hang on. Now consider the full sentence in its entirety. I have myself been in a Doctoral Program. My understanding is that although we adopt a certain methodology to conduct our research and arrive at our conclusions, we cannot afford to wear side-blinds and ignore how other perspectives could affect the results. In a Thesis defense, it is not uncommon for some committee members to ask questions analyzing the results using a different methodology. The Candidate can be in serious trouble if his results are proven false when analyzed from these other perspectives. Likewise, while Dr. Thompson's methodology might be correct (and why should it be not-the use if Mleccha words for interpretation of Vedic texts is accepted even by Jaimini), it rests on the twin-fold assumption: That Zarathushtra lived around 1000 B.C.E or later (doubts against which have been expressed for so many decades now) and that the parrallel Indian Vedic tradition does not presuppose a development period of more than 13 centuries. While the falsity of the former has been acknowledged by you yourself, I attempted to disprove the latter. More of the latter later. BHADANTA YV WROTE: That was the best moment for you to remember the favourite sayings of your father: "vidyA dadati vinayam" and "vidyAdambhaH kSANasthAyi" - not later, when you suddenly preferred to declare that you have no opinion of your own on the problem of the Rgveda's dating. VA RESPONDS: Let us ignore the condescending tone of your response. The mere fact that I cannot criticize Dr. Thomspon because I do not have an opinion of mine is an untenable argument as stated earlier. Again, the 'Process of Elimination' is used when one does not know the final and correct result, but can reject some (not all) of the possible ones. You will understand what I am trying to see if you have ever solved multiple answer questions. BHADANTA YV WROTE: But, in fact, you have such an opinion, and you formulated it in your posting of 18 May (to be analysed in the second part of this letter). But, in fact, you have such an opinion, Dr.Agrawal, and you formulated it in your posting of 18 May. Your starting point was your feeling that Prof. Thompson's date for the RV - 1000 BCE - gives us too small (as it seems to you) a period - only (!) 13 centuries - for the development of the great Vedic literature with all its branches, genres etc. VA RESPONDS: First-as I recall, Mr. Iyer asked what I felt the date of the RV was. I said I have no opinion. This means that I cannot propose any fixed date of RV on the basis of current knowledge. My rejection of 1000 B.C.E as the date of RV as being too late is clear from my preceding as well as the succeeding posts. So what is the confusion here? Did I need to repeat that 1000 B.C.E is too late? As for the 13 centuries, please note that hardly anyone says that the 'Vedic Period' ended after 400 B.C.E. In fact, even these people concede that it ended most likely a little before or a little after the Sakyamuni. What does this mean? It means that the Vedic corpus was closed before the end of that period. This means that we are left with a period of 5-7 centuries for the compilation of the Vedic corpus. The few texts (I did name some) are actually outlyers, speaking statistically. I expanded the 5-7 centuries into 13 to include these few outlyers, and this should have been clear to you. In any case, the argument is not affected even if we retain the 13 century figure, for then we will have to include hosts of non-Vedic texts as well J YV WROTE: You did not take into account that the most productive period of Vedic literature falls upon the so called "Axial period" in the world cultural history, when the great religious and social revolution took place in different parts of the world, when the civilizations and great literary traditions emerged, developed at an exceptional rate and sometimes died after only several centuries of existence. That is why I reminded you of classical Greece and China. You did not confine yourself to expressing your feeling that this period is too short, you tried to prove the same by means of logical arguments. But, I am sorry to say, you demonstrated here total arbitrariness of approach and lack of logic. VA RESPONDS: That is really a strange argument to justify your position that it is possible for many texts to be composed/compiled in such short time. First, the notion of 'Axial period' is merely a theoritical construct and cannot prove anything. Many countries did not produce any literature in this period. Second, when the theory was initially proposed, it was assumed that Zarathushtra lived in the 6-7 Cent. B.C.E --which has now been proved false. Third, it unnecessarily equates the writings of parochial leaders of an insignificant province of large empire to those of Buddha etc. This suffers from the error of back projection of current distribution and influence of religions/cultures in the World. Last, how could the happenings in Greece have had an affect, on say, China, (or those in India affect those in China) at that time? Unless of course you assume an Apaurusheya Hand Waving benignly over the world at that time! BHADANTA YV WROTE: You start, e.g., with the following reasoning: "At present, we have about 200 Vedic texts...We also know that the extant Vedic literature is a small fraction of what once existed and therefore can safely assume that there were literally more than a 1000 texts that existed once". Why did you name this exact figure? Why not "more than 3000"? Or "5000"? Why not "more than 500"? I don't think you are ready to answer. VA RESPONDS: Did you notice the word 'safely' in the sentence? Rather than exaggerating, I am infact, being conservative. At my present state of knowledge, I could psossibly list more than 1000 Vedic texts ONLY, not 500-1000 or more than 3000 or more than 5000. If you do not believe me, refer to some books I listed for Mr. Iyer. If you do not believe these books as well, consider the fact that as late as the 9-11 Cent. C.E., the author of Prapancahrdaya lists around 45 Yajurveda Sakhas extant in Tamil Nadu. Similarly, Dr. Durgamohan Bhattacharya quotes medieval sources to show that 6 Sakhas of AV (as against possibly 1 today) were extant in AP alone. I repeat my charge therefore: "You seem to have no idea about the extent of the lost Vedic literature." BHADANTA YV WROTE: Another example of your reasoning: "Maharshi PANini quotes 2 dozen or so predecessors" (you mention then several pre-PANinean or no-PANinean grammar texts that have survived)..."My point is that even the current extant texts pre-suppose several millenia of systematic development" (end of the paragraph). Please, try to reread your posting of May 18 in a quiet moment, when you are free of polemic ardour, and tell us then what logic makes you think that if PANini had 2 dozen or so predecessors (some of them could be contemporaries, by the way), and there were also some rival schools, it necessarily "pre-supposes SEVERAL MILLENIA of systematic development"? Logically speaking, it would not even presuppose "several centuries". VA RESPONDS: Taking the sentence "pre-suppose ." first. You have clearly misinterpreted my argument. This statement, although occuring in same para as that of Vaiyyakaranas, is nevertheless a part of the 'Siddhanta' as such and therefore applies to previous paras as well (SamAkarshanAt). When you understand this, the statement might not appear all that absurd. If you think that I am shifting my position here, please refer to my response to Dr. Madhuresan dated 5/21/99 (Time: 14:48:18). Besides, the same argument was restated in one or more posts. While I apologize for the confusion that resulted due to misplacement of the sentence, I recommend a study of the Purva Mimamsa and also Madhva's commentary on B.S. 1.1.4 by you to avoid such lapses. BTW, I never claimed that the 23 predecessors of Panini were all non-contemporaries. But the extremely speculative/casual/calluous/flippant manner in which you dismiss this example now doubly justifies my charge "Therefore. Dr. Thompson's dating, based on ." against you. It would have been better if you could have humbly stated that you do not know any itivrtta of these Vaiyyakaranas. For an account of them, please read "Vyakarana Sastra ka Itihasa' etc. BHADANTA YV WROTE: If you think that it is not enough, please tell me and I will show some other logical inconsistencies in your arguments in the posting of May 18 (I have no time for it now). VA REPLIES: Please go ahead. But take care not to misinterpret me as you have done before. And also, please wait for my personal response before penning anything else. BHADANTA YV WROTE: Therefore, I do not think that your way of reasoning can be considered to be "more accurate method" (your posting of 23 May) that the methods used by modern scholarship. VA REPLIES: As above. BHADANTA YV WROTE: I still think, Mr Agrawal, that your participation in the Indology is benefitial to the List, because you represent in it the position of traditional Indian scholarship. VA REPLIES: Thanks for the 'certification'. Please note however that my participation here depends on the discretion of the Listmaster and availability of time to me. BHADANTA YV WROTE: Modern scientific indology and traditional scholarship are two quite different, heterogeneous trends of thought, with different aims and methods; "never the twain shall meet", and no true synthesis, I am afraid, is possible, but the dialogue between them has always been very fruitful. People like you can do a great thing by way of establishing the links of dialogue between two traditions. But the necessary condition of the dialogue is that participants have to be tolerant to each other, to avoid offensive words and polemic exaggerations. VA RESPONDS: Yes. I have certainly drawn one benefit from this whole affair-increased motivation for procuring a copy of Dr. Thompson's Thesis (all attempts in the past have been a cropper). I look forward to greater interaction with you in the future. Enjoy the long (if you are in the USA, regular sized otherwise) weekend. Bhavadiya, Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Fri May 28 21:44:54 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 17:44:54 -0400 Subject: Buddhist revival movement in India Message-ID: <161227049599.23782.16525245814351085818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr.Ganesan: In connection with this: As you know, the center-piece of the Indian tri-color the "Dharmacakra" and the official seal of the Govt. of India, i.e. the three/four(?) headed lion seal, are both of Ashokan origin. Together with Dr.Ambedkar, the architect of the Indian Republic's constitution, it makes 3 "things" which are Buddhist at the "heart" of official modern India. Were the Dharmacakra and lion-seal both recommended by Dr.Ambedkar to the then leaders of the Congress Party? If not, who recommended them and when were they officially adopted? It is interesting to note that in a predominantly Hindu country the officials seals are Buddhist. Also, though Buddhism was born in India it is today found everywhere in East Asia except India (neo-Buddhists excepted). Similarly, though Christianity was born in Israel, it is today found in Europe and not in Israel. I presume the national religions in both cases (Hinduism and Judaism) were rather deep-rooted among the peoples of India and Israel. The reform religions Buddhism and Christianity just didn't hit home with them. Indologists I do need your kind and esteemed feedback on this. (I do understand that modern Israel came into being only in 1948) Regards, B.N.Hebbar From jpstephen at HOME.COM Fri May 28 22:05:13 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 18:05:13 -0400 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049604.23782.7710309466280672813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Let Mr. Siva and Unnikrishan take an oath to create 1000 super >carnatic > >musicians from non-brahmins, there by prove their points. > > Why should they? Why can't the dravidians indigenously do so? I have to agree with Mr. Nanda Chandran on this. Why can't the non-brahmins become more culturally aware and learn carnatic music, bharatanatyam etc? I think all of us emotional Indians should pause for a moment and look among our friends, classmates and neighbours and see if we would consider them self-serving, culture destroying, etc. I certainly would not. One final question, if the brahmins that came to Tamilnadu were such a culture destroying bunch, then why is Tamil their mother tongue? Sujatha From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Fri May 28 22:11:10 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 18:11:10 -0400 Subject: HastAmalaka etc. Message-ID: <161227049606.23782.10040513867173104038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Sundaresan: There is an oral tradition among the TuLu brahmins that HastAmalaka, the first ShankarAcArya of Puri was from among them. To be precise, he said to have come from the BaNNaNjittAya family of the ShivaLLi (TuLu) brahmins. Madhva himself came from the NaDDillAya family. In fact, HastAmalaka is said to have established a VeNugopAla icon at Adi-UDupi. After the BaNNaNjittAyas converted to Madhva-VaiShNavism, they handed over the icon to Madhva who installed it in a corner of the sanctum of the UDupi KRShNa shrine where it can be seen even to this day! Is there any record of this in the Puri MaTha etc.? Also, I have heard from a NambUdiri brahmin vidvAn that PrabhAkara Mishra (the originator of one school of MImAmsA that bears his name) was a NambUdiri brahmin. This man, tho an Advaitin today, claimed descent from PrabhAkara? Can you confirm this from the Advaitic side. That Shankara was a NambUdiri is well-known and that Madhva is TuLu is equally well-established. If HastAmalaka and PrabhAkara are also TuLu and NambUdiri respectively, I would say that the SaptakonkaNa brahmins have done pretty good!! Regards, B.N.Hebbar From jpstephen at HOME.COM Fri May 28 22:15:22 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 18:15:22 -0400 Subject: St.Thomas Message-ID: <161227049610.23782.3392040422277642961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following is some references to Christianity in India from Greek documents of the 3rd and 4th century. I am expecting some more references and will post them when they reach me. 1. Letter of St. Jerome to Marcella ca. 396 A.D. Was the risen Christ before His ascension present only with the disciples, or was He in heaven and elsewhere as well? The latter according to Jerome is the true doctrine. "The Divine Nature," he writes, "exists everywhere in its entirety. Christ, therefore, was at one and the same time with the apostles and with the angels; in the Father and in the uttermost parts of the sea. So afterwards he was with Thomas in India, with Peter at Rome, with Paul in Illyricum, with Titus in Crete, with Andrew in Achaia 2. St. Jerome Book: Lives of Illustrious Men . Chapter XXXVI Pantaenus, a philosopher of the stoic school, according to some old Alexandrian custom, where, from the time of Mark the evangelist the ecclesiastics were always doctors, was of so great prudence and erudition both in scripture and secular literature that, on the request of the legates of that nation, he was sent to India by Demetrius bishop of Alexandria, where he found that Bartholomew, one of the twelve apostles, had preached the advent of the Lord Jesus according to the gospel of Matthew, and on his return to Alexandria he brought this with him written in Hebrew characters. Many of his commentaries on Holy Scripture are indeed extant, but his living voice was of still greater benefit to the churches. He taught in the reigns of the emperor Severus and Antoninus surnamed Caracalla 3. Letter of St. Jerome to Magnus a Roman orator . Pantaenus, a philosopher of the Stoic school, was on account of his great reputation for learning sent by Demetrius bishop of Alexandria to India, to preach Christ to the Brahmans and philosophers there 4. St. Jerome to Evangelus Gaul and Britain, Africa and Persia, India and the East worship one Christ and observe one rule of truth 5. St. Gregorios Nazianzin - oration delivered at constantinople 380AD XI. But perhaps some one who is very circumscribed and carnally minded will say, "But our herald is a stranger and a foreigner." What of the Apostles? Were not they strangers to the many nations and cities among whom they were divided, that the Gospel might have free course everywhere, that nothing might miss the illumination of the Threefold Light, or be unenlightened by the Truth; but that the night of ignorance might be dissolved for those who sat in darkness and the shadow of death? You have heard the words of Paul, "that we might go the Gentiles, and they to the Circumcision."21 Be it that Judaea is Peter's home; what has Paul in common with the Gentiles, Luke with Achaia, Andrew with Epirus, John with Ephesus, Thomas with India, Marc with Italy, or the rest, not to go into particulars, with those to whom they went? So that you must either blame them or excuse me, or else prove that you, the ambassadors of the true Gospel, are being insulted by trifling. But since I have argued with you in a petty way about these matters, I will now proceed to take a larger and more philosophic view of them. ----- Original Message ----- From: Klaus Karttunen To: Sent: 27 May, 1999 11:19 AM Subject: Re: St.Thomas > Dear Colleagues > > The information about the origins of Christianity in India is mainly > found in Greek sources (and to some extent Syriac). In these, Thomas > was originally the apostle of Edessa (the was one of his many graves, > too) and Persia. The very first mentions of Christians in India > ascribe the mission to St.Bartholomew (this has been discussed in a > German article by Professor A. Dihle). These Christians were visited > with boat from Egypt, therefore they might belong to the south. The > Acta Thomae - perhaps in the fourth century - describe Thomas' > mission in India, but nothing refers specifically to the South. On > the contrary, the name of India King, Gondophares, seems to be same > as Gudnaphar, an Indo-Parthian ruler in the Northwest in the first > century A.D. N.B. Indo-Parthian -- Thomas is still understood as the > apostle of Persia and Parthia. When the Indian church became part of > the Persian, it was natural that the apostle of the Persian church > was introduced in India. Cosmas Indicopleustes in the sixth century > was the first to make Thomas visiting South India, he also knew that > the South Indian church was subject to the Persian. Thomas probably > never visited India, but the tradition that he did is much earlier > than the Portuguese. > Unfortunately I have no references at hand (they are at home), but > can send them afterwards, if needed. > > Greetings > Klaus Karttunen > From shrao at IA.NET Sat May 29 00:17:06 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 19:17:06 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049619.23782.7185388059975803883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 25 May 1999, Hans Henrich Hock wrote: > Something to ponder: If the Vedas are apauruSeya, what can they tell us > about pauruSeya history? Who says they can, by the way? As far as I know, the Vedas do not speak of historical persons (in the sense that history is commonly understood, as referring to "a systematic, written account of events," etc.). They refer to legendary or otherwise-unknown persons like Vishwamitra, etc., or to strange beings called Indra, Mitra, etc. The only exception to this one is aware of is the reference to Madhva (1238-1317) in RV I.141-3 and elsewhere, but this is not universally accepted as indeed referring to him, and indeed, one doubts that a student of history would find much worth or value in studying the Vedic descriptions to learn about Madhva. The latter, however, could be counted on to assert that the references to transient beings such as Vishwamitra, or even he, in the RV is because of their being repeated in endless cosmic cycles (`dhAtA yathA pUrvaM akalpayat.h' -- Black Yajur Veda). Regards, Shrisha Rao > Hans Henrich Hock From shrao at IA.NET Sat May 29 00:17:45 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 19:17:45 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049621.23782.6977657155397444398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 23 May 1999, Michael Witzel wrote: > The answer to the question below is the expected one. However, since a > computer crash ate my detailed reply, Switch to Linux! > just a few lines now, topic-wise: Much appreciated, and apologies for the delayed response; a minor injury had me unable to operate a keyboard well until recently. > At 5:28 -0500 5/22/99, Shrisha Rao wrote: > >> >> elaborate rules of philology, linguistics, etc., in regard to the > >>Vedas ... conveniently > >> >> ignored by people propounding "Western scholarship".... > > >> Which "elaborate rules .... are you referring to ?? > > >All the elaborate output of the nirukta-s, the pUrva-mImAMsA sUtra-s, > >etc., which is conveniently ignored by "Western" scholarship. > > No, Vedic study started with it: the founder of modern Vedic scholarship, > Rudolf Roth, published his edition/transl./study of the Nirukta in 1848 : > "Die Religion des Weda". However, much of the popular etymologizing of > Yaaska is interesting as such (and a valuable document of *his* time), not > as a help to decipher a Rgvedic stanza. If that be a consideration, then the same criticism could be made of any work whatsoever, that it was only a document for its own time, rather than an aid to understanding the RV. The criticism you make of Yaska would certainly apply with full force to all, including yourself. Thus, no honest understanding of the RV itself would be possible, and only illegitimate positions relating to various times could be held by all. > Mimamsa represents a more involved question. It is not ignored, but studied > as a philosophical system (FYI: I did so, in Skt. only, with the Rajaguru > at Kathmandu). All well and good, I'm sure. > Why? First, it is post-Vedic, second it deals mostly with prose sentences > in the Brahmanas, third it is interested in ritual procedures. There are several unwarranted assumptions made: that the Vedas can be accurately dated to a certain time, that anything that comes after this accurate date is of limited value, that the Brahmanas are not part of the Vedas themselves, and that interest in ritual is a limitation. I will deal primarily with the second of these here. > Close as it may come to indigenous philology (this discipline, like > historiography, is missing in traditional S.Asia), it does not help much to > 'decipher' the Rgveda. > Later Mim., of course, has contributed important items, such as a > discussion of the meaning of "the word". But, again, this discussion does > not help to find out what 'Rta' or even 'graama' > mean in the RV. The blame for that can be placed on the faulty paradigm that you are attempting to use, under which, nothing indeed can ever be known about the meaning of anything in the RV. More on this below. > > Why do you think the classical period of study of the Vedas is 12 years? > Not to study Mim., but to learn one's Veda by heart and to study ritual. A gross oversimplification, but we won't press it. > > Also ...`itihAsapurANAbhyAM veda samupabR^iMhayet', etc. > A post-Vedic statement and already biased by its very timeframe. Why, doesn't itihAsapurANAdervedamUlatvakAraNAt.h | prAmANyaM nAnyathA tasya prAmANyamupapadyate || (Sureshvara, bR^ihadvArtika II-4-319) sound sensible? Then one is obliged to note that should you choose to say that the smR^iti is untenable in this context for reason of being post-Vedic, then one needs must observe that *you*, being post-Vedic, can say nothing about the Vedas either. Your mode of reasoning therefore violates your own locus standi in the matter -- apa-siddhAnta-doshha. There thus has to be some better means of judging the worth -- or lack thereof -- of statements, than their being "biased by timeframe" (which in any event has not been established by you or agreed upon by us, and is thus unavailable as an axiom of inference). Furthermore, if it be the case that texts later than the Vedas are suspect, then the Vedas must be completely opaque to us, since no possible direct knowledge of them could exist now, given the efflux of time, and since anything that came in between would be ruled out by your paradigm. Hence, it is hardly a surprise that you find it difficult to interpret their statements; that you have any knowledge of them at all could only be because you have not adhered to the rigor of your own paradigm. Before we go any further, let us also note in passing that difficulty with the understanding of the RV has been noted in the RV itself; Sayana cites `ko addhA veda ka iha pravochaddevAM achchhA patyA kA sameti' (somewhere in maNDala X, I believe; I can get the exact reference if you're interested) which is commented upon by him as `kaH vA addhA satyabhUtaM tAdR^ishamarthaM veda vetti? kaH vA iha asmin.h praj~nAtamarthaM pra vochat.h pra bravIti? kiM tattaduchyate?', etc. Thus it is that: yadi vidyAt.h chaturvedAn.h sAN^gopanishhadAn.h dvijaH | na chetpurANaM saMvidyAnnaiva sa syAdvichaxaNaH || -- is no joke at all, and cannot simply be wished away as "post-Vedic." It is manifestly accurate even from experience, and attempts to outlaw it have serious logical deficiencies. > > The argument that the itihAsa, etc., came later is not convincing because > >there are references > >to them in the Vedas themselves (in the Yajur Veda). > Nobody knows what a Vedic itihaasa was and how it has changd over time. > Someone's Mahabharata is not someone else's. -- Once I found (and lost) > the beginning of the Ved. itihaasa: "Manur vai raajasiid" ... > Well? The primordial Manu as king of himself, his sons and their families? > History? Difficulties with the texts of the Mahabharata are very well documented and have existed for centuries; however, this is quite obviously not unique, and not pertinent here. By the standard you have set for yourself, no one could possibly know what a Vedic *anything* was, even if the same anything exists with the same name now. Any standard that makes such a sweeping dismissal cannot be considered a serious barrier to the Mahabharata. > >The grammar of Panini, etc., is an aspect of the classical study of the > >Vedas, not a > >later canonization of grammar for post-Vedic works > It has *incomplete* Vedic rules, yes. It does not explain, e.g., the RV > grammatical category of the Injunctive ("chandasi bahulam" is neither > explanation nor rule), -- without which one cannot understand very many > sentences in the RV. Described (and understood) only in 1967 by K. > Hoffmann, Der Injunktiv im Veda . Good for Dr. Hoffman, and for you, too, but one wonders what crystal ball he used to make his determination. > >there are fruitless discussions on what some particular "epithet" in the > >Rg Veda means, > Without proper meaning of epithets and other difficult words, no > understanding of the RV. The keyword there is "fruitless." Under your paradigm, there can be no understanding of the RV. Period. > Language always changes, even Vedic, -- from Rgvedic to Upanisadic > language, not to speak of Epic & Classical or modern Sanskrit. If that be used as an assumption in dating the various texts involved, then it cannot also be offered as a fact arising from said dating. There is a circularity involved in doing so. > > I have yet to come across any "Western" scholar who understands the > >notion of > > apaurushheyatva ... > Really? -- Unfortunately, the Rgvedic AUTHORS of the RV hymns clearly say > that *they* composed them, with a lot of effort (even while often > using/plagiarizing their relatives' or colleagues' work), and they are > proud of their poems + denigrate/disregard those of others. To > immortalize themselves, they put their names into their hyms, often in > parokSa way. > All of this sounds all too pauruSeya to me. Does it? Let's look at just one "epithet" of the RV, shall we? What is the RV's word for "author"? That's the sixty-four dollar question here. If you're translating `R^ishhi' as "author," then one cannot agree; the Nirukta says `R^ishhadarshanAt.h', pointing to the R^ishhi being "one who sees." And obviously, `darshanaM cha pUrvasiddhasya bhavati; na hi yo yat.h karoti sa tat.h pashyatIti uchyate!' Also see Shankara's comment on `ata eva cha nityatvam.h' in this regard. Your argument about the RV's "authors" is thus without value. Further, said argument has been rebutted in the RV itself, as I pointed out on March 5. Last but not the least, one notes that my original point was about the lack of understanding of the concept, whether one accepts it or not; your criticism does not demonstrate understanding, but only uninformed dismissal, which only strengthens what I was saying. > > ...several classical scholars have pointed out that it originates > >in the RV itself. > By whom and where? (after Sayana) -- By Sayana, yes, but also by Shankara, Ramanuja, Anandagiri, and Madhva, to name a few. > And I hope not in the puruSa hymn! -- There's been more gobbledygook written about the purushha-sUkta than almost anything in the world, but that's a separate issue, which we don't need to get into here. Regards, Shrisha Rao > MW. From shrao at IA.NET Sat May 29 00:17:58 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 19:17:58 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies In-Reply-To: <01bea643$1d3e62c0$2220accf@ramakris> Message-ID: <161227049623.23782.7137035880566620161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 24 May 1999, Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote: > Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > >It is not clear to me that "understanding" (if not accepting) the > notion of > >apaurusheyatva will greatly affect the dating of Vedic texts. It would make the question meaningless -- > >What is a few thousand years here and there in timeless eternity? Precisely. > Exactly what I was wondering too. How does "apaurusheyatva" help in > Vedic philology? It is of relevance in understanding only later > vedAntic thought. Is it? I'm not sure. That would seem to presuppose that `apaurushheyatva' is a concept invented by Vedanta (which cannot be so because we know of earlier references). Also, the Vedas themselves partition texts into `jAta+vedAH' on many occasions; the `jAta' or "born" texts, i.e., the authored ones, are to be treated differently, as a class, than the "Vedic" ones; the study of language as relating to the latter cannot, on this account, be the same as that relating to the former. Of course, the whole `jAtavedAH' split may be bogus, a clever fraud, etc., but that is not in evidence -- only in the case of the Vedas does one have to take recourse to nirukta and other devices, and no one, as a rule, has ever had a complete handle on them, as they themselves proclaim. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Rama From shrao at IA.NET Sat May 29 00:18:39 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 19:18:39 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies In-Reply-To: <199905270458.JAA18590@mbg.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227049625.23782.16893838115232796039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 27 May 1999, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > few of your remarks on this list I think I discern a fundamental > misunderstanding underlying a few of the threads. Theology is > not the same as philology, nor as Religionswissenschaft (what in > English is vaguely called 'religious studies'). Later thinkers, also > traditionalistic RV scholars, may have interesting things to say > about scripture etc., but from a contemporary theological standpoint. I have dealt with this issue of "contemporariness" well enough elsewhere, and see no need to repeat myself here. > This may be meaningful, in a way, for many people at the time when > the theology is proclaimed, but it need not be a faithful reflection > of historical reality. A historian of religion (any religion) does > well to take a skeptical view of traditional theologians. However, not to the extent of ignoring all evidence in making one's postulations. It is a welcome development that there are scholars now who are willing and able to judge matter freely and who do not simply accept matters on faith (a criticism that I must most vigorously make of almost all contemporary traditional Vedic scholarship), it is unfortunate that newer scholarship also becomes subject to the same kinds of pitfalls and dogmas, albeit in a different form. > Consider, e.g., the concept of "apauru.seyatva" and Prof. Witzel's > recent comment on this list: not only does the concept have no base > in the Vedas themselves, but those texts actually contradict it. (Let I'm afraid Dr. Witzel's wrong, and so are you. Regards, Shrisha Rao > RZ From shrao at IA.NET Sat May 29 00:18:57 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 19:18:57 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies In-Reply-To: <19990524141958.45516.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049628.23782.11614057885479022610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 24 May 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > At 5:28 -0500 5/22/99, Shrisha Rao wrote: > > > I have yet to come across any "Western" scholar who understands the > >notion of apaurushheyatva ... > > Heard Dr. Madhav Deshpande in a Seminar that apaurusheyatva was > developed later. Do the vedas themselves speak of this > concept or a later interpretation of vedas? That's a loaded question, don't you think? Anything at all can be considered to be a later interpretation. However, there is a self-referential statement which calls itself `nitya' or eternal. The complete statement is something like: `tasmai nUnamabhidyave vAchA virUpa nityayA; vR^ishhNe chodasva sushhTutim.h' (RV VIII.64-6), more commonly referenced just as `vAchA virUpa nityayA', which has been cited to my certain knowledge by Anandagiri (comm. on Sureshvara's bR^ihadvArtika), Madhva (multiple occasions), and Sayana (multiple occasions; see first part of his RV comm. for instance). Other statements from the RV are also cited by various scholars. I had posted about this "history of apaurushheyatva" issue back in the first week of March this year (on March 5th or 6th); the Indology server is playing truant so I can't pull the exact reference right now, but you should have little difficulty finding it. It has other references to serve as starting points of inquiry, as well. Regards, Shrisha Rao > N. Ganesan From shrao at IA.NET Sat May 29 00:19:09 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 19:19:09 -0500 Subject: Image worship and bhakti In-Reply-To: <199905251642.JAA24740@shasta.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: <161227049630.23782.8226120798376163118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 25 May 1999, Mani Varadarajan wrote: > > >I am interested in passages in bhakti literature which describe the ideology > > >of statue/image worship. Are there any loci classici? Also, any references > > >to self-immolation with regard to bhakti practices would be much > > >appreciated. Thanks for any help. > > > > > >Justin Meiland > > I would suggest the Agama literature. The Pancaratra Samhitas > in particular present the theology of image worship in a > systematic manner. I would suggest as a start the pAdma samhita, > sAttvata samhita, and jayAkhya samhita. A reference that may be useful in this regard is `Agamas and South Indian Vaisnavism', by V. Varadachari (Madras : Prof. M. Rangacharya Memorial Trust, 1982, BL1141.46 .V37 1982). The author gives a fairly comprehensive survey of the Pancharatra literature as found today with special reference to its role in determining worship practices. F. Otto Schrader's `Introduction to the Pancharatra and the Ahirbudhnya Samhita' (Adyar Library, Madras) remains the classic on the subject more than eighty years after it was written. The Sanskrit introduction to the Lakshmi Tantra (published by the Adyar Library in 1959) is useful also; however, a comprehensive study of the Pancharatra literature is still very much a desideratum. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Mani From shrao at IA.NET Sat May 29 00:19:16 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 19:19:16 -0500 Subject: Original Sanskrit names In-Reply-To: <19990527233126.71417.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049632.23782.15727194795657746855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 27 May 1999, Vishal Agarwal wrote: > Sitapur = Naimisharanya Not quite. I have been to Sitapur, and to Naimisharanya, and they are not the same, although they are not far from each other. Naimisharanya is now commonly known as `Nimsar', although the original name itself is also still used in formal or literate usage. One would guess that Sitapur has its original Sanskrit name. What reason exists to believe otherwise? Regards, Shrisha Rao > Vishal From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sat May 29 02:18:46 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 21:18:46 -0500 Subject: Chruch of St. Thomas and Archaeology Message-ID: <161227049634.23782.5824385836165401347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 27 May 1999 05:45:56 PDT N. Ganesan presumes (erroneously) that: >Most likely...no material predating 16th century exists for Thomas' martyrdom >near Chennai. Years ago, I remember seeing Pahlavi stone inscriptions [Christian in content, with crosses], c. 9th c century as I recall, from the Mylapore area: published in Indian Antiquary way back when. And didn't Marco Polo detour that way, in the early 13th c., to see St. Thomas Mount? Angulya praNAm, M. Rabe From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat May 29 02:19:13 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 22:19:13 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit dance and drama Message-ID: <161227049636.23782.2869842511663113132.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/9/99 12:41:54 AM Central Daylight Time, mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA writes: > Dr. Kapila Vatsyayan's work, Classical Indian Dance > in Art and Literature, is another important work in this field, in which > she has discussed some of the major Sanskrit texts on the dramatic arts. > K.M.Varma's Natya, Nrtta and Nrtya is also a must read. My own work > attempts to understand, analyze and reconstruct the dance tradition of > classical India on the basis of 30 Sanskrit texts (from the 2nd through > the 18th century). My 1991 book, Movement and Mimesis,refers to many > other scholars in this field. I have just browsed through this work, Movement and Mimesis. Is there any reason why no Tamil text on dance and mime was consulted? In distinguishing between abhinayadarpaNa and bharatArNava the differences in the number of single-hand gestures and double-hand gestures are listed in the book. Interestingly, in aTiyArkkunallAr's commentary (13th/14th century AD) on cilappatikAram, we get numbers different from those in the Sanskrit texts. The Tamil text has 33 for single-hand and 15 for double-hand. The dance-cum-music text paJcamarapu which preceded the cilappatikAram commentary has the same numbers. (The Tamil text uses many Tamilized Sanskrit technical terms in addition to Tamil technical terms also.) I would appreciate scholarly views on where abhinayadarpaNa was composed? Also, is there any relationship between the nandikezvara of abhinayadarpaNa and nandikezvara of nandikezvara kAzikA/kArikA. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From thompson at JLC.NET Sat May 29 02:43:00 1999 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 22:43:00 -0400 Subject: Request for info In-Reply-To: <19990528230649.34513.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049638.23782.12011426400871741241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology List Members, As a sincere student of Old Indo-Iranian literature, I am seeking an e-mail list devoted to the dispassionate scholarly [that is, philological] study of Old Indo-Iranian texts like the Vedic Rgveda and the Avestan Gathas. I know that this sort of thing is not appropriate on your list, devoted as it is to partisan personal attacks, but since it is *fairly close* to your stated interests, I thought that some of you might be aware of *other* lists where people like myself might find informed discussion of relevant matters. I'd be grateful for any and all recommendations, Sincerely, George Thompson From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Fri May 28 18:17:58 1999 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Fri, 28 May 99 23:47:58 +0530 Subject: varna and jati Message-ID: <161227049593.23782.2825714861706433474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, Please don't think that Keralites are not proud of the Dravidian heritage.The only difference is that they are not fanatic about it. Com.E.M.S. Nambudiripad has written a book in Malayalam- Vedangalute Nad - in which he has drawn attention to the multiple nature of our hertage.He has considered the ancient Tamil literature on a par with the Vedic literature.He has contributed a foreword to my book-Advaitavedanta,Dialectics and Indian Philosophy- in which he disagrees with my contention that there is dialectics in Advaitavedanta.He was against setting up a sanskrit University in the state. ChattambiSwamikal who was one of the founders of Kerala renaissance has written a book -Adibhasha-in which he has tried to establish that Muladravidam was the Adibhasha from which all other languages originated.The manuscript of the book was recently found out by me and I have published it.efforts are going on to translate the book into Tamil. One cannot also ignore the rich wealth of knowledge enshrined in Sanskrit. Let us have a universal approach in these days of universal means of communication, rather than narrow boastings in the name language,creed,colour,country etc. Thanks Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair ---------- > From: Prasad Velusamy > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: varna and jati > Date: Friday, May 28, 1999 12:26 AM > > >(Actually apart from the Tamils none of the other "Dravidians" (Keralites, > >Andhrites, Kannadigas? Marathas?) seem keen on claiming a Dravidian > >heritage or links with Tamil. Even in communist Kerala, Samskrutam > >flourishes!). > > To some extent, this can be due to the poor state of wealth/economics > among today's Tamils; The success of varNa dharma, sanskrit alphabets > and words are some other reasons why Non-Tamil Dravidians > are little shy of their Dravidian heritage. > > Greetings, > Prasad > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat May 29 05:58:48 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 01:58:48 -0400 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms Message-ID: <161227049643.23782.8076942368791231738.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I apologize for the length of this post. On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, In a posting entitled, "Re: Two questions - Taranatha and Robert Gussner", David Dargie wrote: >Only the DakShiNAmUrti stotra passes as authentic due to the >non-occurrence of these words. In the article "dakSiNAmUrti stotra and mAnasollAsa" in Mm. Professor Kuppuswami Sastri Birth Centenary Commemoration Volume Part 2, 1985, p.89-98, C. Markandeya Sastry begins with a quotation of Prof. Kuppuswami Sastri on mAnasollAsa (Journal of Oriental Research, Madras, April-June, 1932) : "It must be remembered that zrI zankara was the greatest of the teachers who inherited the philosophical heritage of an old type of zaivAdvaita which was represented in the Upanishadic period by basic texts like zvetAzvarOpanishad and in the post-Upanishadic period by authoritative works like sundara paNDya-vArttika and zankara's own bhASyas and devotional hymns. The parallelism between pratyabhijJA literature and dakSiNAmUrti-stotra which the author of this article points out, will show, if pursued further, that the pratyabhijJA philosophy itself is a by-product of the blend of zankara's advaita and upanishadic zaivism." Markandeya Sastry concludes the article by saying: "As a result of this discussion, one has two alternatives thrown up with regard to the authorship of mAnasollAsa, -- (1) The author is not surezvara since the views of pratyabhijJA system of philosophy and the concomitant zaiva school are predominant in it, or - (2) surezvara is the author but he tried to effect a compromise between the zankara-advaita and the pratyabhijJA school. It is however to be noted that the pratyabhijJA as a system did not develop but as Prof. Kuppuswamy Sastry observed, there are seeds of the same in upanishads like zvetAzvara and zaiva siddhAnta in the Vedas. Perhaps zurezvara, after his perceptor, came across some propounders of this system, in a way of organized opposition to the pure Advaitic tenets of zrI zankara because the latter may end in discarding a personal God. Indeed the zankarites are also alleged to be 'pracchanna bauddhas'. To meet this contingency and especially in view of the mass appeal, the personal God philosophy generally has, surezvara tried to accomodate the theories of zaivAgama and also the pratyabhijJA system to a certain extent while commenting on the dakSiNAmUrti stotra; or perhaps he chose to comment on this stotra only for this purpose. He might have termed the chapters as ullAsas in the fashion of Agama works just to attract the attention of advocates of a personal God as Supreme, to their philosophical moorings that lie in Advaita only." C. Sivaramamurti has also noted ziva's dakSiNAmUrti form is south Indian and LakulIza form is north Indian. Given the earliest attestation in CT and later widespread popularity of dakSiNAmUrti cult in the Tamil region as discussed in earlier postings, I have some questions. Was the authorship of the only genuine(?) stotra of zankara due to the need to counter the ziva dakSiNAmUrti devotional cult of the Tamil country? Why did madhurAja yogin, a disciple of abhinavagupta say in the dhyAnazloka, "May the glorious god dakSiNAmUrti (abhinavagupta), who is an incarnation of ziva protect us"? Can one say that the compromise between the zaivism of the Tamil country and zankara's advaita leads to pratyabhijJA ? Where was sundara pANDya-vArttika written and by whom? Thanks in advance for comments and answers. Regards S. Palaniappan From deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG Sat May 29 07:17:12 1999 From: deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG (Tein Network) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 03:17:12 -0400 Subject: St.Thomas (fwd) Message-ID: <161227049646.23782.14459477541397285085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 02:59:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Avi Dey To: Tein Network Subject: Re: St.Thomas (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 06:41:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Tein Network To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK, Bijoy Misra Cc: kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI, Avi Dey Subject: Re: St.Thomas (fwd) May 28, 1999 RE: St. Thomas In India, Connection between Greek City Alexandria & Grecko-Buddhist Taxila Hi Everyone, Bijoy Misra send ortech an interesting brief on possible visit of Christians, or proto-christians from Greek City of Alexandria to point south in India at the time of the Christ. One German scholar has written a book recently claiming existence of a possible Buddhist colony in Alexandria about the time of Ashoka several hundred years before Christ to the period of the Christian Apostles shortly after Christ. Is there any way to "date" such a visit of St.Thomas ? There is one German author who has published a book on a theory that Christ himself may have visited India by boat from Alexandria. Is there a link between St.Thomas's visit and Christ's visit ? One point which I am trying to research is the established trade routes between Buddhist India during the "Greco-Buddhist" period (say 300 BC- 100 AD) between India and Greek dominated world. We know that Ashoka's Missionaries travled the trade routes in their twin quest for "spiritual healing" and "medical healing". Matter of fact, Greco-Buddhist City of Taxila was well known center of Buddhist healing during this period. What evidence can we find of trade route connection between Taxila and Alexandria, two Greek culture domintated centers of knowledge of that period ? Any comments or reference from anyone is highly appreciated. Avi Dey, Coordinator, Chilka Lake Ashram Project From vcbothra at EXCITE.COM Sat May 29 10:22:47 1999 From: vcbothra at EXCITE.COM (V C Bothra) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 03:22:47 -0700 Subject: Original Sanskrit Names Message-ID: <161227049648.23782.15991200320885711549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought Lucknow was a corrupted name for LakhanOudh Lucknow = LakhanOudh >3. Lucknow = LakShaNapuri V C =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Web - http://personal.vsnl.com/vcbothra Email - vcbothra at excite.com ICQ # - 26874606 Life is limited and desires are not, Enjoy Life by limiting them! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 29 11:25:33 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 04:25:33 -0700 Subject: pataJjali and pANini myths Message-ID: <161227049654.23782.6730153686243149805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< To come back to the topic of your paper (myth-making stimulated by competition between cities or kingdoms), I would like to know how you view the role of the city of cIkAzhi in this emulation between maturai and citamparam? It is the most important site of tEvAram. On a total of 799 hymns, it has 71 hymns for itself while citamparam only had 11. Was it left out after tEvAram time? Did it lack a minister-politician-cum-saint-and-cum-poet (as was mANikka vAcakar?)? Why was citamparam given the first place on the list? How do you fit kAzhi into the global picture? Any light you can throw is welcome. >>> Of course, Palaniappan should answer this, But fools rush into places where angels fear to go :-) cIkAzi is no match compared to Madurai or Chidambaram at any time. But it was paramount to its own son, Campantar. Campantar chose to keep on singing about cIkAzi; That is why we have the proverb, "kAzi pAti, viizi pAti" as far as the quantity of Tevaram songs is concerned. Regards. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 29 12:22:33 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 05:22:33 -0700 Subject: MaNavALamAmun2i Message-ID: <161227049659.23782.11310238209953795133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > Of course there are a few distinguished >vaDama's among Tenkalai's (e.g., maNavALa mAmunikaL >who's from Sikkil KiDAram near modern AlvAr tirunagari >in Tirunelveli District). Dear Srinivas, Where did you read this? In Jagadeesan's book? Thiru. Raa. Ragahvaiyangar (Sethusamasthana vidhvan along with his maternal cousin, Mu. Raghavaiyangar; RR gave many mss./corrections to UVS edition of CT; Sethupatis established the first research jl. for Tamil studies in 1900 with RR as its editor), in his CEtunATum tamizum, 1924, Madurai writes on p. 7: "ivaruTaiya (ie., Sethupathi's) puNNiyanATu tamiziR periya JAn2ikaTkum iTamAya ten2patu, caivattiR ciRanta JAn2ayokiyAkiya srI tAyumAn2avar neTunATTaTaGkic camAtiyaTaintaruLiya mukavaiyum, vicatavAkcikAmaNiyAkiya vaiShNavAcArriyarAyt teyvamum azaittup pEcum tUya JAn2amum uTaiya maNavALa mAmun2ivar vaLarntu ciRanta *cikkaR kaTAramum* tan2pAR kONTu viLagkuvatan2AR palarum aRiyattakkatu". VishNu, on his own, called upon MaNavALamun2ikaL and conversed, this is told to us by M. himself: nAmAr periyatiru maNTapamAr namperumAL tAmAka en2n2ait tan2iyazaittu nImARan centamiz vEtattin2 cezumporuLai nALumiGkE vanturaiyen2 REvuvatE vAyntu. Cikkal kaTAram of M. is in Sethu country. Regards, N. Ganesan PS: You wrote about IccambADi ayyangars; Do you know anyone? Last time I was in India, from my family heirloom of about 1000 books printed prior to 1930, I brought a few. One is a translation of kuvalayAnandam, an alamkara text from Sanskrit. mukavUr mInATcicuntarak kavirAyar rendered into Tamilc ceyyuL (poems); Pachaiyappa coolege Sanskrit pandit, tirumalai IccambADi satAvadAnam SrinivasAcharyar checked it with the Sanskrit original. Printed in 1895 by Ettayapuram Raja. If any IccambADiyAr wants a copy, I will gladly oblige. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat May 29 13:22:08 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 08:22:08 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049657.23782.2254342212335746901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To answer all the suppositions, expressions of conviction, allegations and ad hominem attacks of SR would take far more than Dominik's 2 screens (and more time: I am leaving town) . Thus, here just one example of how his firmly rooted convictions mishandle the texts: More on methods separately. 19:18 -0500 5/28/99, Shrisha Rao wrote: < > > ... there is a >self-referential statement which calls itself `nitya' or eternal. The >complete statement is something like: `tasmai nUnamabhidyave vAchA virUpa >nityayA; vR^ishhNe chodasva sushhTutim.h' (RV VIII.64-6), First of all, this is RV 8.75.6. -- I do not know from what Rgveda version Srisha Rao quotes. Certainly not the Mandala and also not the Astaka division. His own? Second, nitya does not mean 'eternal' in the RV. Even a look into the dictionaryu of Monier Williams would have shown him that. Again, a case of over-confidence of someone inside the tradition and/or a speaker(?) of Sanskrit with regard to the meaning of the Vedas. First check your sources & grammar and dictionary! Language changes. The "Silly Old Wives of Windsor" would be "hip middle aged women" now. I would not dare to read Shakespeare and sent emails about him without such aids. Third, the whole stanza is not self-referent, but poet Viruupa (Vocative!) addresses himself and "his own" (nitya) speech/poetry here. And urges it on, for 'the heavenly bull' (Agi). For ni-tya "one's own" see Mayrhofer's Etym.Dict., (1986-) , with pertinent notes (Celtic helps here, not Yaska.) And again, incidentally, K. Hoffmann (on sa-tya, ni-tya etc.) SR goes non: > more commonly >referenced just as `vAchA virUpa nityayA', which has been cited to my >certain knowledge by Anandagiri (comm. on Sureshvara's bR^ihadvArtika), >Madhva (multiple occasions), and Sayana (multiple occasions; see first >part of his RV comm. for instance). These medieval commentators ( I cannot check them at home), like SR, simply seem to understand nitya in its later sense 'eternal' . Wishful thinking. -- QED. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 29 15:41:16 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 08:41:16 -0700 Subject: TulAbhAra Message-ID: <161227049682.23782.8199940517783414619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Does any Indologist know if there is TulAbhAra (the practice of weighing coconut, jaggery, butter etc. against the devotee's weight as the fulfillment of a vow) performed TRADITIONALLY in any shrine besides GuruvAyUr and DharmasthaLa? I am not interested in recent (within 40 years) copycats introduced into other South Indian shrines. Obviously, this practice comes from the KRShNa tulAbhAra done by RukmiNi in the BhAgavata. Thanks. >>> There are earlier inscriptions before Bhagavathapurana's time where Kings on their coronation or birth days donate gld, silver, etc to the poor, poets, brahmins, deities. Sundara Pandya's inscription of donating his weight to the temples and inscribing them in Tamil poems on Temple gopuras come to mind. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat May 29 13:42:53 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 08:42:53 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies (philology) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049662.23782.5185642563579222640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:17 -0500 5/28/99, Shrisha Rao wrote: I very much appreciate the detailed answer by S.R., and the time on it because it conveniently highlights and underscores quite a number of times the 'traditional attitude' that persons grown up inside their own tradition assume towardstheir ancient texts. If we would not know already, it would teach us how to start the imposible dialogue with convinced people. SR's attitude is no different, say, from that of a (traditional) Christian with regard to the Old Testament/Thorah, or a (trad.) Muslim scholar towards the Koran, or even a (trad.) Buddhist monk/scholar towards the "Word of the Buddha." In that sense, R. Zydenbosch is completely correct in saying that the twain shall not meet... Such 'insiders' already KNOW what the texts say (or they take it from traditional commentary). On the other hand, "western" philologists (what about our Japanese colleagues?) **want to FIND out**, through the philological method, and by constant controlled trial & exposed errors, what the texts meant *at the time of their composition*, and not what they mean to a modern believer or a modern casual reader. (Philologists study, of course, the *history* of interpretation of the (archaic) texts by medieval commentators such as Sayana or Sankara). Apparently, SR has no idea of philology. I do not have the time (leaving town) nor the patience to restate 150 years of Vedic scholarship or give a class "Philology 101" or "Rgvedic 101", but perhaps an (Under)Graduate could enlighten SR? In one sentence: understandig the texts through themselves, by a close study and while constantly checking and rechecking *all* the evidence, cultural or linguistic, not just *selected* passages, and doing so even for such boring topics as the meaning of ca 'and'. At 2 or 3 places in the RV it means 'though'.... You don't find that kind of information in Yaaska (but in Hittite). Or take the meaning of nitya, in my earlier message. The burden of proof (not by simple "logic", please, but by a painstaking investigation!) is on SR's side: 150 years of philology already have shown what e.g. nitya in RV means and I do not havet retrace this. But he has to show how these scholars were wrong in going against the common understanding (also of the comm.) of the word. The rest of the post takes screens and screens. I might try to answer a few points. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat May 29 14:10:24 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 09:10:24 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies (another blooper) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049664.23782.12675506928081373846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SR has another mistake: >difficulty of ... the understanding of the RV has been noted in the RV >itself; Sayana cites >`ko addhA veda ka iha pravochad devAM achchhA patyA kA sameti' (somewhere >in maNDala X, I believe; I can get the exact reference if you're >interested) It is RV 10. 129.6, but only for : ko addhA veda ka iha pravochad; -- the whole quotation is in RV 3.54.5 -- (NB: where did the poet of 10.129 get his line from? From the earlier poet of 3.54...) (and patyA is wrong for pathyA) (achcha is wrong: RV consistently only has ONE consonant here) > which is commented upon by him as `kaH vA addhA satyabhUtaM >tAdR^ishamarthaM veda vetti? kaH vA iha asmin.h praj~nAtamarthaM pra >vochat.h pra bravIti? kiM tattaduchyate?', etc. Again wrong. The 10.129 stanza deals with the origin of the world/gods, not with the difficulty to understand the RV . The hymn 3.54, addressed to the All-Gods, deals with the secret path to the gods, not with the understanding of the RV text/ RV type speech. Any reader of the two hymns will see that. One cannot quote, like any Sunday preacher, isolated sentences from "scripture" (and always untranslated!! - which interpretation does SR actually mean??? He needs to show us in English) to make one's point. Just as in the present example, context is VERY important. If someone gets his basic facts wrong like this (see above exx., just as in the nitya case !) why should we believe him ? ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 29 16:17:42 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 09:17:42 -0700 Subject: Original Sanskrit names Message-ID: <161227049711.23782.7550162881216543021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the correction. Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Shrisha Rao Subject: Re: Original Sanskrit names Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:19:16 -0500 On Thu, 27 May 1999, Vishal Agarwal wrote: > Sitapur = Naimisharanya Not quite. I have been to Sitapur, and to Naimisharanya, and they are not the same, although they are not far from each other. Naimisharanya is now commonly known as `Nimsar', although the original name itself is also still used in formal or literate usage. One would guess that Sitapur has its original Sanskrit name. What reason exists to believe otherwise? Regards, Shrisha Rao > Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 29 16:22:01 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 09:22:01 -0700 Subject: Gentoo studies Message-ID: <161227049713.23782.13634118827937358253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Shrisha Rao Subject: Re: Gentoo studies Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:17:45 -0500 SR wrote: Before we go any further, let us also note in passing that difficulty with the understanding of the RV has been noted in the RV itself; Sayana cites `ko addhA veda ka iha pravochaddevAM achchhA patyA kA sameti' (somewhere in maNDala X, I believe VA writes: This is RV 10.90,6-- a very contested Mantra. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat May 29 14:53:04 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 09:53:04 -0500 Subject: Gentoo studies (details on SR) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049666.23782.17331918511753117673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The rest of my post re: SR is probably useless for him (since he *knows* already) and for persons of his mindset. I suggest to them to stop reading right here. Others may (?) be interested. MW =================== >> popular etymologizing of >> Yaaska is interesting as such (and a valuable document of *his* time), not >> as a help to decipher a Rgvedic stanza. >If that be a consideration, then the same criticism could be made of any >work whatsoever, ..., including yourself. Again, no idea of historicity and one's consciousness of being bounded by one's own time frame. The difference between Yaaska and us today is that he, firmly rooted in his tradition, guesses as to the meaning of words (based on popular etymologies), while philologists CHECK *all* possible explanations and only then decide, based on on attestation, context, related languages, etc. (see again K.Hoffmann, on how to establish etymologies, in: Aufsaetze zur Indo-Iranistik, Wiesbaden 1991). >> Why? First, it is post-Vedic, second it deals mostly with prose sentences >> in the Brahmanas, third it is interested in ritual procedures. >There are several unwarranted assumptions made: that the Vedas can be >accurately dated to a certain time, that anything that comes after this >accurate date is of limited value, that the Brahmanas are not part of the >Vedas themselves, and that interest in ritual is a limitation. I will >deal primarily with the second of these here. All of these are just SR's assumptions, not mine: Of course the Veda, like any text, can be dated once one finds the right means. E.g., one cannot date the RV in 7000 BCE as it has copper/bronze implements, and with good reasons not below 1200 BCE as it has no evidence of iron. But it is full of horses and chariots. There are no horses (in stratified archaeological contexts) in all of South Asia BEFORE 1700 BCE , etc. etc. One can see how we get closer and closer to the date ... Anything after the RV is NOT "of limited value", just of limited value as to the *interpretation* of the BY THEN already archaic RV. (So, what about Yaska,Sayana?) Brahmanas of course are part of the Vedas, they are just later than the RV: after all, they quote from the already *closed, collected* RV... Early Mim. has a special interest in ritual, but the RV *also* is complicated late-Indo-European, Indo-Iranian poetry, -- one among many other items. So *what* is SR talking about? >> > Why do you think the classical period of study of the Vedas is 12 years? >> Not to study Mim., but to learn one's Veda by heart and to study ritual. >A gross oversimplification, but we won't press it. Read the Krsna YV Maitrayani Samhita, it will tell you! (of course, there is no commentary or translation of this text) >> > Also ...`itihAsapurANAbhyAM veda samupabR^iMhayet', etc. >> A post-Vedic statement and already biased by its very timeframe. >Why, doesn't > itihAsapurANAder vedamUlatva-kAraNAt.h | > prAmANyaM nAnyathA tasya prAmANyam upapadyate || > (Sureshvara, bR^ihadvArtika II-4-319) >sound sensible? According to later tradition yes. But the RV or even other early Samhitas do not say so. (Where? SR did not answer...) Who cares what Sur. or Gonda think -- as long as they cannot prove that their interpretation is RV-immanent? And as long as the do not show the original intent of its authors (sorry, of its "no author"!) > .... for reason of being >post-Vedic, then one needs must observe that *you*, being post-Vedic, can >say nothing about the Vedas either. This kind of logic may look nice in perfect isolation, but neither do I play an ancient vivaada game here, nor am I fearing to loose my head: SR simply shows that he does not know at all what I am talking about. "Philology 101" seems a must. See above. -- Again, Philologists try to approach & approximate the "original intent" (of the RV) , not its understanding by a medieval philosopher, a modern believer or a modern casual reader. After 150 years of controlled experiments, we are closer than Yaska. >... then the Vedas must be completely opaque to us, since no possible >direct knowledge of them could exist now, given the efflux of time, and >since anything that came in between would be ruled out by your paradigm. Nice logic, but see above. -- And we have MANY means to approach these ancient texts . Note : If "western" approaches would not work, then we would also have to throw out the reading & interpretation of, by 1800 CE still completely unknown scripts & texts, such as those of Egypt,Sumeria, Babylonia, Persia, Chinese shell inscriptions and Maya steles, to mention but a few. (And,to be sure, philological studies of the Thorah/Bible have proceeded in the same way with this text. Traditional Christians are not happy about it, for example to hear that the Old testament had 3 different authors/compilers. But 'we' proceed anyhow). Why should just the Veda elude us?? Traditional people such as SR always claim special status for THEIR sacred/national texts. >Difficulties with the texts of the Mahabharata are very well documented >...Any standard that makes >such a sweeping dismissal cannot be considered a serious barrier to the >Mahabharata. Not to the Mbh, -- just, the *present* Mbh ((with all its Greeks, , Sakas, Pahlavas and even the 5th century CE (Hara-)Hunas)) , is not = *THE* Vedic Itihaasa. And certainly not Vedavyaasa's etc., account of (post-)Battle times. >> >The grammar of Panini, ... does not explain, e.g., the RV >> grammatical category of the Injunctive ... Described (and understood) >>only in 1967 by K. >> Hoffmann, Der Injunktiv im Veda . >Good for Dr. Hoffman, and for you, too, but one wonders what crystal ball >he used to make his determination. Easy answer: SLOW READING. And a lot of study of ALL sentences involved & comparisons of data, over many years. Other people use crystal balls. Or dark glasses. >> Language always changes, even Vedic, -- from Rgvedic to Upanisadic >> language, not to speak of Epic & Classical or modern Sanskrit. >If that be used as an assumption in dating the various texts involved, >then it cannot also be offered as a fact arising from said dating. There >is a circularity involved in doing so. I think, I get tired now: We date texts with *many* means, e.g., such simple ones as the Brahmanas or Upanisads QUOTING the RV text. No circularity here, just accumultive evidence. By now it should be clear that SR has not read the texts with the open mind that they deserve. >Does it? Let's look at just one "epithet" of the RV, shall we? What is >the RV's word for "author"? 'author' is not an "epithet'' just a noun. Here SR needs to check his ENGLISH dictionary. -- 'inane' as in 'inane contributor' is one, just as 'tradition-blinded' as in 'tradition-blinded contributor' is one. >If you're translating `R^ishhi' as "author," then one cannot agree; You have to show us WHY? The burden of proof is on SR's side There is Rsi, there is Kavi (which even means 'poet', later on), there even is: mantra-krt (RV 9.114.2) . How do you make your RV mantra if you are not a poet? There are dozens of passages which speak of poetic composition by dhii. (Here even the maligned J. Gonda's book on Inspiration may help). >the >Nirukta says `R^ishhadarshanAt.h', pointing to the R^ishhi being "one who >sees." Here, Nir. is right as far as the expression for 'conceiving in one's mind' is concerned. Why: As a study of expressions in the RV and in the Veda in general will show, Rsis "see" (dRS/paz) RV Rc-s and they 'see' even SV saaman-s! But this choice of words does not prove that they were e.g., 'divinely inspired' to 'see/hear'. --- (after all, we also say "I see!"and mean "I understand", and the very word Veda comes from 'to know' from earlier 'to see', cf. Latin vid-eo "I see", Engl. wit-ness) . Cf. Gondas study. Andd which apauruSeyatvam told the Rsis to ask for gifts of 100 cows or a chariot with slave girls? >Your argument about the RV's "authors" is thus without value. Further, >said argument has been rebutted in the RV itself, as I pointed out on >March 5. With all that is going on on this list, I have long forgotten ... I may look at it some other time. I hope the argument is not of the same type as exposed in earlier messages: We do not have the time to rewrite SR's RV quotations and wrong translations. And I only gave up this amount of time to indicate how far blind adherance to Tradition will lead someone. Not exactly hot news... ApauruSeya-tva: >> > ...several classical scholars have pointed out that it originates >>By Sayana, yes, but also by Shankara, Ramanuja, Anandagiri, and Madhva, to >name a few. All I asked for was *proof* that this is said in the Vedas, not just asserted by later commentators such as Sayana! (IN SUM:> In short, I echo R.Zydenbosch's statement: >On Thu, 27 May 1999, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > >> I think I discern a fundamental >> misunderstanding .... Theology is >> not the same as philology, nor as Religionswissenschaft (what in >> English is vaguely called 'religious studies'). Later thinkers, also >> traditionalistic RV scholars, may have interesting things to say >> about scripture etc., but from a contemporary theological standpoint. But 'we', "western" philologists have no such dogmas. Just as in natural science, we adjust or change our interpretations when new evidence comes up or proof is shown that earlier interpretations were misguided or wrong. We keep striving, to quote the Buddha, to *approach* the original intent and do not take *anybody's* (and certainly not our colleagues' !!) word on faith... ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat May 29 14:16:51 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 10:16:51 -0400 Subject: Comedy of Errors Message-ID: <161227049669.23782.7429084882944527275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Varadarajan: Many thanks to you for the honorary membership bestowed on me into your community. I hope it has no expiry date! I could use it when I go to Tirupati next in order to have that few extra minutes to have darshan of VenkaTeshvara. I showed it to my wife and a few visiting relatives and we had a good laugh about it. I talked to our mutual friend KP, who I have long been urging to join the Indology list. As you know his knowledge of RAmAnuja's tradition is extensive and he was the one who rectified several of my misconceptions. I am indeed grateful to him for that. Anyway, this incident has now acted itself as a catalyst for the same. Also, this has happened to me more than once. Perhaps, it is time to apply for membership into the Cherokee or Navajo nation. That should really clear things up! Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bvi at AFN.ORG Sat May 29 14:36:49 1999 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 10:36:49 -0400 Subject: Image worship and bhakti Message-ID: <161227049671.23782.15391817311081586339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the translation and commentary of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada of the Srimad Bhagavatam (Bhagavata Purana) there are many beautiful and informative descriptions of Deity worship and bhakti. Some of them are his purports to S.B. Canto 3, Chapter 25, Texts 35-36, and Chapter 29, Texts 15-17. Being a practictioner of bhakti his whole life and the leader of a worldwide bhakti movement, his insights are particularly valuable. I hope this helps. Chris Beetle At 07:42 PM 5/23/99 +0100, you wrote: >>I am interested in passages in bhakti literature which describe the ideology >>of statue/image worship. Are there any loci classici? Also, any references >>to self-immolation with regard to bhakti practices would be much >>appreciated. Thanks for any help. >> >>Justin Meiland > >The Bhagavata Purana is certainly one of the important sources. The statue >(kastha) meditation is frequently described there. The loci classici are: >I,6,17-26; II,1,16-39; II,2,8...81; III,28,1-38; IV,8,42-78; XI, 14, >31-46. My little book in French "La m?ditation dans le Bhagavata Purana" >(Paris, Dervy Livres, 1978) may be useful. I have brought together in it >the various textes from the Bh. P. Greetings. A. Nayak From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat May 29 14:47:00 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 10:47:00 -0400 Subject: TulAbhAra Message-ID: <161227049673.23782.17775321542508435990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does any Indologist know if there is TulAbhAra (the practice of weighing coconut, jaggery, butter etc. against the devotee's weight as the fulfillment of a vow) performed TRADITIONALLY in any shrine besides GuruvAyUr and DharmasthaLa? I am not interested in recent (within 40 years) copycats introduced into other South Indian shrines. Obviously, this practice comes from the KRShNa tulAbhAra done by RukmiNi in the BhAgavata. Thanks. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 29 17:50:32 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 10:50:32 -0700 Subject: Original Sanskrit Names Message-ID: <161227049704.23782.1182557381930982764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No. Lakhan is a commonly used corruption for 'Laksmana' in Awadhi. For instance, the Ramacaritamanasa says: "Bihasi lakhan boley mrdubani| Aho mumIsu mahA bhatamani || (Sri Laksman smiled and said- "Lo! The Munisvara Parasurama considers himself to be a great scholar") The contexts is the arrival of Lord Parsuram after Sitasvayamvara. It is commonly believed that Lucknow was founded by Sri Lakshmana. Awadh and Oudh are both corruptions of 'Ayodhya'. For an instance of the latter, remember that the pen name of the Hindi poet 'Ayodhya Singh Upadhyaya' was 'Hari-audha' where Hari is for the word 'Upadhyaya' and Audh for Ayodhya. Another common corruption of Ayodhya is 'Ajodhya' (as in the famous Hindi song- "Rama bina mori sooni Ajodhya"). Modern Hindutvavadis want to rename Luknow as 'Lakshmanapuri.' Regards. Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Balaji Hebbar Subject: Re: Re : Original Sanskrit Names Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:59:54 -0400 Mr. Bothra: The word "Lakhan" is itself an indicator that it is the "prAkRta" of the original Sanskrit "LakshaNa". The word "Lakhanoudh" itself may have been made into Lucknow but "Lakhanoudh" itself was perhaps adopted only during the Islamic times. We have to go further back than that. Probably "Lakhanoudh" was itself a contraction of "LakShaNapuri, AyodhyArAjya". Regards, B.N.Hebbar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat May 29 14:59:54 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 10:59:54 -0400 Subject: Original Sanskrit Names Message-ID: <161227049675.23782.3354554525623381004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Bothra: The word "Lakhan" is itself an indicator that it is the "prAkRta" of the original Sanskrit "LakshaNa". The word "Lakhanoudh" itself may have been made into Lucknow but "Lakhanoudh" itself was perhaps adopted only during the Islamic times. We have to go further back than that. Probably "Lakhanoudh" was itself a contraction of "LakShaNapuri, AyodhyArAjya". Regards, B.N.Hebbar From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sat May 29 05:35:22 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 11:05:22 +0530 Subject: Original Sanskrit names In-Reply-To: <19990527233126.71417.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049641.23782.9592893415621650389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 27 May 1999, Vishal Agarwal wrote: (some examples of town names) > Lahore = Luvapura, Kasur (in E. Punjab) = KushAvati, Jammu = Jambu > Aligarh = Koil, Agroha= Agreya, Ahmadabad= KarnAvati, Jabalapur= > JAvalipura, Bharucha = Bhrgukaccha, Ujjain = Ujjayani or Avantika > Patna = PAtaliputra, Sitapur = Naimisharanya, Gwalior = Lashkara Which N.Indian place-names can be traced back further to their Dravidian roots ? eg. Dravid. Kongu or Kongo -> Sans. Ganga; Dr. Hariyupiyah -> Pkt. Harappa Maybe some of the noted Dravidologists on this list ( Chandrasekaran, Ganesan, et al.) can shed more light on this. - Samar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat May 29 15:18:51 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 11:18:51 -0400 Subject: HastAmalaka etc. Message-ID: <161227049677.23782.9296119451982599052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr Sundaresan: Thanks for the info and clarification. However, it is important to point out that HastAmalaka did NOT establish the current UDupi KRShNa. That idol was miraculously obtained by Madhva and consecrated by him in 1278 CE. The idol of UDupi KRShNa bears a rope and churning rod, while the VeNugopAla idol established by HastAmalaka earlier in another area of UDupi bears a flute. This VeNugopAla idol is today merely kept in the northeast corner of the sanctum of the UDupi KRShNa shrine. Please do not confuse the two KRShNa idols. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat May 29 15:27:03 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 11:27:03 -0400 Subject: KAn.chI Message-ID: <161227049680.23782.4608304532506526754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr.Sundaresan: Thanks for answering my question and the update on the current head of the CitrApur-ShirALi MaTha. Please refer to it as CitrApur-ShirALi MaTha as there is also a CitrApur-Suratkal MaTha. The latter is a TuLu-MAdhva institution come down from Vijayadhvaja TIrtha, the 7th pontiff of the PejAvara MaTha of UDupi. Vijayadhvaja TIrtha is the official commentator on the BhAgavatam for the MAdhvas. His brindAvana (cenotaph) is located in KaNvakShetra, KeraLa. The CitrApur-Suratkal MaTha is based in Suratkal, 10 miles north of Mangalore City. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Sat May 29 10:46:30 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 12:46:30 +0200 Subject: pataJjali and pANini myths In-Reply-To: <3f33e44a.247e2dcf@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227049650.23782.5738637738115596006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A 01:10 27/05/99 EDT, vous avez ?crit : >Dear List Members, > >The results of my investigation into the myths linking (1) pataJjali and >AdizESa and (2) pANini and zivasUtras (following M. M. Deshpande's important >earlier article in JAOS, 1997) are presented at the Indology web site with >the following address. I thank Dominik for mounting this at the Indology web >site. > > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/palaniappan-patanjali.html > >.... > >The findings underscore the importance of the use of Tamil materials for >arriving at a proper understanding of some ancient Indian cultural elements >and the need for collaboration between Sanskrit and Tamil scholars. > >Comments are welcome. Dear S. Palaniappan, I read your paper and thought it was very interesting, and thought-provoking. I had the same feeling that, if I understand you well, Agastya was very useful in making the jain work tolkAppiyam acceptable to a society of scholars where Siva had become supreme. tolkAppiyan2ar being one of his 12 disciples, he was an acceptable character, even though he had slightly "misbehaved" with Agastya's wife by rescueing her from drowning. Concerning this reappraisal of earlier texts in a new religious context, I, too, drew inspiration from an article of prof. M. Deshpande. "Evolution of the notion of Authority (pramanya) in the Paninian Tradition", that appeared in 1998 in the 20th issue (1st fasc.) of the journal HEL (_Histoire, Epist?mologie, Langage_, PARIS, Presses Universitaires de France). This is the text of a talk he gave in Paris in january 1995. Of course, it would be good to state the arguments that induce you to give the date of 2nd century BC for tolkAppiyam since it is not the date which is usually accepted, but, this not being really the topic, has little bearing on the paper and we can just skip this point. BTW, how do you evaluate the mention of aintira viyAkaraNam in the commentary of aTiyArkku nallAr for cilappatikAram XI_98-99 and XI_152-164, when he elucidates the dialogue between a brahmin and a jain ascetic? is it a real grammar book that he could have seen or heard of? Is it a kind of mythical reference? To come back to the topic of your paper (myth-making stimulated by competition between cities or kingdoms), I would like to know how you view the role of the city of cIkAzhi in this emulation between maturai and citamparam? It is the most important site of tEvAram. On a total of 799 hymns, it has 71 hymns for itself while citamparam only had 11. Was it left out after tEvAram time? Did it lack a minister-politician-cum-saint-and-cum-poet (as was mANikka vAcakar?)? Why was citamparam given the first place on the list? How do you fit kAzhi into the global picture? Any light you can throw is welcome. Regards -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 29 23:11:34 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 16:11:34 -0700 Subject: Epic MaNimEkalai Message-ID: <161227049707.23782.12326451927542352979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Esteemed Indologists, It is usually written in books about the Buddhist epic, MaNimEkalai - rare indeed in that M. is one of the handful texts to have survived in India proper - that Thiru. u. vE. cAminAtaiyar, the great editor of Classical Tamil texts. Refer for example, to works by Paula Richman, Anne Monius, A. Veluppillai and Peter Schalk. Some years before Thiru. UVS published his MaNimEkalai edition, a full maNimEkalai edition has appeared in print. In 1894 A.D. That editor was Tirumayilai CaNmukam PiLLai, a student of puracaippAkkam aTTAvatAn2am capApati mutaliyAr. I had the honor of holding the first M. editon in Maraimalai ATikaL library, Chennai. A photograph of its front page is given in mA. cu. campantan, accum patippum (Foreword by mE. vI. vENukOpAlappiLLai; some may know that Zvelebil studied under V. PiLLai), tamizar patippakam, 1980. It is important that this First edition of Tirumayilai CaNmukam PiLLai be reprinted as such by photographic scanning. No doubt, later editions of Thiru. UVS would be an improvement, but worthwhile to compare. Hope Heidelberg, Cologne or French Institute of Indology can accomplish this. Thanks for your kind attention. Does UVS mention about Tirumayilai CaNmukam PiLLai's earlier edition in his MaNimEkalai edition? Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 30 00:03:44 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 17:03:44 -0700 Subject: HastAmalaka etc. Message-ID: <161227049699.23782.205492462251811244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Hebbar, Please read my posting again. It is not I that is confused between the various Krishna idols in Udipi. I did not say that Hastamalaka established *the* only Krishna idol in Udipi. I'm well aware of different Smarta and Madhva traditions. All I said was that the tradition of Hastamalaka's establishing *a* Krishna idol in Udipi is known to one particular text, but that the story *in that text* has come down in a garbled manner. How would I know that the story is garbled, unless I knew the distinction between what Madhva did and what Hastamalaka is said to have done? Good day, Vidyasankar >Mr Sundaresan: > >Thanks for the info and clarification. However, it is important >to point out that HastAmalaka did NOT establish the current >UDupi KRShNa. That idol was miraculously obtained by Madhva and >consecrated by him in 1278 CE. The idol of UDupi KRShNa bears >a rope and churning rod, while the VeNugopAla idol established >by HastAmalaka earlier in another area of UDupi bears a flute. >This VeNugopAla idol is today merely kept in the northeast >corner of the sanctum of the UDupi KRShNa shrine. Please do >not confuse the two KRShNa idols. > >Regards, >B.N.Hebbar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 30 00:19:47 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 17:19:47 -0700 Subject: Sundara PAndyan Message-ID: <161227049702.23782.815064117636127276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Palaniappan writes: >Where was sundara pANDya-vArttika written and by whom? | | Ganesan writes: >Sundara Pandya's inscription of donating his weight to the temples and >inscribing them in Tamil poems on Temple gopuras come to mind. Any connection between the two personalities? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 30 01:44:43 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 18:44:43 -0700 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms Message-ID: <161227049695.23782.13758328120367256176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Palaniappan, I was just going to mail you privately after reading your recent essay on the Indology website, when I saw that you have asked about the dakshiNAmUrti stotra and the mAnasollAsa on the list itself. Ramakrishnan, who is on this list, can give you more details regarding these two texts, but I thought I would quickly make a few points of general interest. 1. The indebtedness of non-dual Kashmir Saiva schools to Sankara's advaita vedAnta is a topic that remains quite mysterious. Contemporary scholars of Tantra would not consider that there is much influence, while traditional scholars might assert one, or at least a relatedness. The biggest reason to doubt any influence is that the two schools come from totally different scriptural traditions. Sankara's references are totally upanishadic, with an almost resounding silence on the Agamic texts. Kashmir Saivism is almost totally based on the Agamas/Tantras, with only a passing acknowledgement of upanishadic passages. Markandeya Sastri's contention that Sankara himself inherited an ancient Sivadvaita system of thought would be contested by those who do critical studies of Sankara's undisputed texts, but Gopinath Kaviraj has also said the same thing. You could read Natalia Isayeva's "From early Vedanta to Kashmir Saivism" for an excellent discussion of the two non-dual traditions. However, while there is a good discussion of philosophical issues, I seem to remember that there is little mention of historical cross-influence in this book. 2. The notion that the thought of the mAnasollAsa is close to that of the non-dual pratyabhijnA school of Kashmir Saivism is quite wrong. With all due respect to the scholars of an earlier ear, I think it is based on a total misconception regarding the use of the word pratyabhijnA in the stotra and in the commentary. In the hymn, the word is used as follows - sushuptaH pumAn, prAg asvApsam iti prabodhasamaye yaH pratyabhijnAyate. This is simply a *vedAntic* description of the waking and deep sleep states. It refers to the person who is aware of no objects whatsoever in the state of deep sleep, and who "recognizes" on waking up as follows, "I slept well before." The point being made here is that pure consciousness is not absent in deep sleep, although there is no subject-object awareness in that state. The commentary follows in the same vein, and expounds the vedAntic analysis that is only hinted at in the hymn. What should be noted is that the word pratyabhijnA is used almost casually, and in a wholly vedAntic context. In the Kashmir Shaiva school, pratyabhijnA becomes a highly technical word, where the sAdhaka "recognizes" his identity with Siva, as a result of meditative practice. The mere occurence of the word in the stotra and the commentary seems to have misled researchers into thinking that the poem is by abhinavagupta and the commentary by one of his disciples (e.g. Karl Potter, Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies, Vol 3 and references therein). Nobody seems to have noticed the fact that maNDana miSra's brahmasiddhi uses the word pratybhijnA in almost as casual a fashion too, and in the identical context of an analysis of deep sleep and waking states. Irrespective of the authorship of mAnasollAsa, the use of the word pratyabhijnA must have been standard vedAntic practice in Sankara's times (maNDana was most certainly a contemporary of Sankara). 3. A final point that all scholars seem to have missed, although it is right there, staring everybody in the face - mAnasollAsa is quite advaita vedAntic, and not oriented towards any kind of Kashmir Saivism, when it says that ultimately even scripture is mAyA and therefore not real, just as the universe is mithyA. Non-dual Kashmir Saiva authors take great pains to set themselves apart from this view, and assert that scripture is real, because it comes from the real Siva, and that the world is also real, as it is created by the real Siva. It is very surprising to me that this has been overlooked so thoroughly by those who have written about mAnasollAsa, and it can only be attributed to a lack of appreciation for how the two traditions viewed their respective scriptures. 4. This is not to say that the mAnasollAsa is totally unaware of Saiva Agamas. As a matter of fact, it explicitly refers to 36 tattvas, and to Sivayogis, and to those expert in the SivAgamas. However, this seems to have compounded the problem, as researchers have tended to assume in the past that any mention of 36 tattvas necessarily implies Kashmir Saivism. On the other hand, I am inclined to think that the mAnasollAsa is simply referring to the source texts on which the later school of abhinavagupta based itself. And it is entirely possible that some of these source texts being referred to in the mAnasollAsa were entirely south Indian in origin and influence. The mAnasollAsa could, however, be a composite text. It is very possible that this text is independent of any Kashmir Saiva concerns, but reflects a dialogue between Sankaran vedAnta and *southern* Saivas. The only Saivas being discussed in this text are dualists, who hold that ISvara is only the efficient (and not the material) cause of the universe. 5. The text of sundara pANDya (a pre-Sankaran author) seems to be unavailable, except in quotations in later vedAntic authors. The author may be the same as one who is called dra(m)viDAcArya by many authors. However, sureSvara uses the term 'gauDair-drAviDaiH' once, but this is most certainly a reference to Sankara, his own guru, and gauDapAda, Sankara's paramaguru, and therefore, not a reference to sundara pANDya. 6. Finally, the kind of wide-ranging questions you are raising could well do with informed input from scholars of Tantra like Padoux, Sanderson or Ortega, but I doubt you will be able to contact them on this list. Perhaps Dominic Goodall, who is here, can give you better information in this regard. However, the view most accepted by scholars is that abhinavagupta and his followers influenced Tamil Saivism. The reverse influence, from Tamil Nadu to Kashmir, that you posit may not go very well. But the preference for Sanskrit sources over Tamil ones among scholarly circles is nothing new to you! Best wishes, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From hart at POLBOX.COM Sat May 29 19:28:51 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 21:28:51 +0200 Subject: Gentoo studies (details on SR) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227049687.23782.8371699449380147627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Sat May 29 19:48:25 1999 From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (jneuss) Date: Sat, 29 May 99 21:48:25 +0200 Subject: New list / new rules (RE: Request for Info) Message-ID: <161227049692.23782.9787099539076266713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members George Thompson wrote: <<>> I fully agree with George Thompson's view of the nature of our list, or rather what this list has degenerated to. When I joined the list about two years ago, most of the topics discussed were of interest to broader circles of indologists and most messages contained profound and interesting views and informations. These times, after three days or so, hundreds of messages pile up in our Inbox folders, which are for their most part, to be frank with you, of no value to most of us (I assume), or at least to me. The administrators of this list have several times tried to reduce the amount of postings of individual members, and they also have shut down numerous threads which were, disguised as scholarly discussions, only meant for personal, religious or political attacks on other members. Although efforts to protect the original intention of this list were obviously in vain, the administrators are definitely not the ones to blame. I am sure many former members of this list have already cancelled their subscription. Like George Thompson I wonder where these scholars currently discuss matters and whether there is another indological list. If so, would somebody be kind enough to inform me (privately) about it? Alternatively, would it be possible to reorganize this list, or set up another one with a set of somewhat stricter guidelines regarding subject, content, length and amount of messages? Be sure that I feel very uncomfortable writing this (last) message, before I cancel my subscription in a couple of days. But in my opinion this is not a scholarly forum anymore. Thanks for reading. jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de -- Juergen Neuss Freie Universitaet Berlin From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun May 30 04:35:25 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 30 May 99 00:35:25 -0400 Subject: pataJjali and pANini myths Message-ID: <161227049685.23782.6038764721425113989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/29/99 5:51:18 AM Central Daylight Time, jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR writes: > Of course, it would be good to state the arguments that induce you > to give the date of 2nd century BC for tolkAppiyam since it is not > the date which is usually accepted, but, this not being really the topic, > has little bearing on the paper and we can just skip this point. Have we not discussed this already? See my post of 5 July 1998 entitled, "Re: Sanskrit, centamiz, and diglossia" > BTW, how do you evaluate the mention of aintira viyAkaraNam > in the commentary of aTiyArkku nallAr for cilappatikAram XI_98-99 > and XI_152-164, when he elucidates the dialogue between a brahmin > and a jain ascetic? is it a real grammar book that he could have seen > or heard of? Is it a kind of mythical reference? As for as the brahmin was considered, it was almost mythical. As for the Jain, it was part of another text. What the episode does show is the importance of grammar as a field of study for Tamils. > To come back to the topic of your paper (myth-making stimulated by > competition between cities or kingdoms), I would like to know > how you view the role of the city of cIkAzhi in this emulation > between maturai and citamparam? It is the most important > site of tEvAram. On a total of 799 hymns, it has 71 hymns for itself > while citamparam only had 11. Was it left out after tEvAram time? > Did it lack a minister-politician-cum-saint-and-cum-poet > (as was mANikka vAcakar?)? > Why was citamparam given the first place on the list? > How do you fit kAzhi into the global picture? > Any light you can throw is welcome. By and large, I agree with Ganesan's view. cIrkAzi's importance was associated with campantar. Moreover, the number of hymns has no perfect correlation with a city's importance. Like tillai, Madurai also had only 11. But Madurai has always been more important than cIrkAzi. As I said in the essay, Chidambaram had become associated with the royal houses. See also Zvelebil's work where he discusses the Chola queen cempiyan2mAtEvi's interest in Chidamparam. No wonder Chidambaram rose to the top of the sacred sites. Apart from this, one may need to look into the possibility of different cults associating with different temples, much like different mutts controlling different temples today. As a cult loses its following, the associated temple may lose its patronage also. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 30 11:39:25 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 30 May 99 04:39:25 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049718.23782.1068863398874412757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Zydenbos wrote: >I may add that Balaji Hebbar's orthography is not standard. School >children here in Mysore, like my daughter, learn that they live in >'Karnataka', with the final -a. That is what I was wondering: Did not Balaji Hebbar write that Sinhalese make use of word-final "a" and this adds to a sweet lilting sound to the speech? Exactly like when Tamil Brahmanas recite the ancient vedas! All of us can make use of "a" at the end of the word, Karnataka like Kannadigas do. Why, Karnatak? Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 30 12:25:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 30 May 99 05:25:19 -0700 Subject: vivAda and Indology Message-ID: <161227049721.23782.16449707710597232680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Having been in this scholarly list for about six years now, I come to an understanding of how the Dravidian language of the IVC (cf. Mahadevan, Parpola) got changed into Indo-Aryan once Aryans from Iran established in sizeable numbers in powerful positions in the pre-Aryan indus society fallen into harder times. For example, Prof. Witzel mentioned that there is no *philology* in native India. Well, it was simply given no chance to grow. In Tamil grammar called pirayOka vivEkam, an application of Sanskrit grammar onto Tamil, there is a list of clearly Tamil words existing in Sanskrit. Not only kumArilabhaTTa, but the Dikshitar of Pirayoka vivEkam as well, predate Burrow and Emeneau. Given the language abilities of Indians, philology would have grown immensely in the last two millennia, but it was given no chance to live. A good comparison will be the recent posts on nonhuman origins of the RV (and a reference to Madhva in RV!!!). Prior to 1993, there was no mention of things Tamil or Dravidian here. Still I do not see anybody holding an academic position writing about Tamil or other Dravidian material from universities of Europe or USA. To provide a good counterpoint to the HindutvavAdis (ie., to tackle the web attempts to use the West as a punch bag) will be to create academic positions/publications bringing out the wealth of Tamil and other Dravidian linguistics and literatures out. If done, I am sure the attack on Linguistics, Dating of the RV, etc., and the problems the Indian elites have in that IVC is most likely not Sanskrit speaking will wither away. I wait for a day when IVC seals are deciphered by Indologists; By now you know, I certainly discount Frawley and Rajaram. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 30 13:11:06 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 30 May 99 06:11:06 -0700 Subject: TulAbhAra Message-ID: <161227049723.23782.4965250795814747349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is the poem, one of the most beautiful I ever read, which Sundara Pandyan, the Madurai king, got inscribed on a Chidambaram temple gopuram. Probably the Pandyan was very happy that he has captured the Chola country, his traditional rival land, and to say thanks, he donates tulAbhAram twice: 1) a gold tulAbhAram and 2) a pearl tulAbhAram (pearls are a product of Pandya country (cf. Arthashastra, MBh., Raghuvamsham) and special to Pandyas and their daughter, Meenakshi) amounting to his own weight to Lord Natarajan of Tillai. in2avarik kimpuri veNpiRaik kOTTikal veGkaTuGkaT cin2amatta veGkaric cuntarat ten2n2avan2 tillaiman2Ril van2acat tiruvuTan2 ceJcol tiruvai maNantatokkum kan2akat *tulai*yuTan2 muttat *tulai*yil kalantatuvE! After explaining the power of the elephant army of the Sundara Pandyan, his two tulAbhArams are described. First tulAbhAram, with gold on one side and S. Pandyan on the other side of the weighing scale, the King looks like VishNu marrying Sri (compare: Devaraja concept); the second tulAbhAram with the said king on one side and *pearls* on the other, the Pandyan appears like the one who married Sarasvati. Ref: SII, iv, p. 189; centamiz, vol. 4, 1904, p. 491. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From jpstephen at HOME.COM Sun May 30 11:19:17 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (jp) Date: Sun, 30 May 99 07:19:17 -0400 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227049716.23782.8585947392855057408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here in Toronto, we have an Indian news program where the Indian newsreaders, reading news in heavily Indian-accented English, always pronounce Indian names with a strong English accent. Probably the same psychology as Mr. Zydenbos' friend Narayan at work here. Sujatha -----Original Message----- From: Robert Zydenbos To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 4:34 AM Subject: Re: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit > This has never been a problem anywhere in coastal Karnatak. I > would even add Uttar Karnatak. ............ Yes, this is funny... It seems to confirm the strange answer I once got, when I asked a friend in Mysore why he wrote his name 'Narayan' instead of 'Narayana': "That's what we do when we write in English, because that's how English people pronounce our names." This answer offers more than one problem (e.g.: why accept the supposedly English way of distorting your own name when using Latin script? or: do 'English people' really do so? and if so: why? and where do they get such ideas from?). I did not pursue the matter at the time, since it was bound to become too personal. From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Sun May 30 03:00:17 1999 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Sun, 30 May 99 08:30:17 +0530 Subject: Rgvedic Date Message-ID: <161227049725.23782.4538411855124745091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks for Dr.Thompson and YaroslavVassilikov. Indological fanaticism is on the ascent in recent times.As a teacher of Sanskrit I have been experiencing rigid opposition from such fanatics for the last quarter century.There is attempt to communalise everything.If one goes through Zend Avesta and Rgveda printed in Devanagari one may be perplexed to distinguish between the two sometimes.Such is there similarity.Dating both to the same or not far separated period is quite natural.I agree more with Dr.Vasililikov in the dating. I think Dr.Thompson also will be considerate since he says that no mention of horse is available in pre1700B.C.E. non-vedic sources. Traditinal Indologists, Indological fanatics tend to assign even 10000B.C.E.for Rgveda.Who cares about such exaggerations? Dr.K.Maeswaran Nair Professor Dept. of Sanskrit University of Kerala Thiruvananthapuram. India-695 581 E-mail Dear George Thompson, Me too; I will also be interested in learning more about Avestan and Vedic; I would like to understand the bases for controversies regarding a hypothetical proto-Indo-Iranian and the relative chronology between Vedic and Avestan; in case you find any relevant lists or references, please do let me know. I would deeply appreciate it. Thanks for your consideration and with the best regards, Kalyanaraman George Thompson wrote: > Dear Indology List Members, > > As a sincere student of Old Indo-Iranian literature, I am seeking an e-mail > list devoted to the dispassionate scholarly [that is, philological] study > of Old Indo-Iranian texts like the Vedic Rgveda and the Avestan Gathas. > > I know that this sort of thing is not appropriate on your list, devoted as > it is to partisan personal attacks, but since it is *fairly close* to your > stated interests, I thought that some of you might be aware of *other* > lists where people like myself might find informed discussion of relevant > matters. > > I'd be grateful for any and all recommendations, > > Sincerely, > > George Thompson ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Sun May 30 09:59:44 1999 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Sun, 30 May 99 12:59:44 +0300 Subject: New list / new rules (RE: Request for Info) In-Reply-To: <37504489.4883@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <161227049709.23782.18310309268015931907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I agree with Juergen Neuss. Things have gotten to the point where the first thing I do every morning is delete a great many messages posted by a relatively small number of people - without reading them. I probably miss some messages of genuine interest, but I don't have time to sort them out from the polemics. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt > >George Thompson wrote: ><<As a sincere student of Old Indo-Iranian literature, I am seeking an >e-mail list devoted to the dispassionate scholarly [that is, >philological] study of Old Indo-Iranian texts like the Vedic Rgveda and >the Avestan Gathas. >I know that this sort of thing is not appropriate on your list, devoted >as it is to partisan personal attacks, but since it is *fairly close* to >your stated interests, I thought that some of you might be aware of >*other* lists where people like myself might find informed discussion of >relevant matters. >I'd be grateful for any and all recommendations (...)>>> > > >I fully agree with George Thompson's view of the nature of our list, or >rather what this list has degenerated to. When I joined the list about >two years ago, most of the topics discussed were of interest to broader >circles of indologists and most messages contained profound and >interesting views and informations. >These times, after three days or so, hundreds of messages pile up in our >Inbox folders, which are for their most part, to be frank with you, of >no value to most of us (I assume), or at least to me. >The administrators of this list have several times tried to reduce the >amount of postings of individual members, and they also have shut down >numerous threads which were, disguised as scholarly discussions, only >meant for personal, religious or political attacks on other members. >Although efforts to protect the original intention of this list were >obviously in vain, the administrators are definitely not the ones to >blame. >I am sure many former members of this list have already cancelled their >subscription. Like George Thompson I wonder where these scholars >currently discuss matters and whether there is another indological list. >If so, would somebody be kind enough to inform me (privately) about it? >Alternatively, would it be possible to reorganize this list, or set up >another one with a set of somewhat stricter guidelines regarding >subject, content, length and amount of messages? >Be sure that I feel very uncomfortable writing this (last) message, >before I cancel my subscription in a couple of days. But in my opinion >this is not a scholarly forum anymore. > >Thanks for reading. > >jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de > >-- >Juergen Neuss >Freie Universitaet Berlin *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Sun May 30 14:00:47 1999 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 30 May 99 14:00:47 +0000 Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in sanskrit In-Reply-To: <19990528145702.7473.rocketmail@web707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227049690.23782.798793756446656162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 07:57:02 -0700 > From: Periannan Chandrasekaran [Names in Karnataka] > > It does not seem so. This is probably a combination of factors: (a) > > increased popular familiarity with northern India as a consequence of > > the Independence movement, (b) Hindi cinema, (c) names recently > > 'imported' from the north, > > As is evidenced by clipping of the word-final "a" in Karnataka to > produce > "Karnatak" by a kanndaiga himself in the midst of this very discussion > :-) > ------------------------------ > From: > Balaji Hebbar > Subject: > Re: VarNa & JAti > .......... > ............... > This has never been a problem anywhere in coastal Karnatak. I > would even add Uttar Karnatak. ............ Yes, this is funny... It seems to confirm the strange answer I once got, when I asked a friend in Mysore why he wrote his name 'Narayan' instead of 'Narayana': "That's what we do when we write in English, because that's how English people pronounce our names." This answer offers more than one problem (e.g.: why accept the supposedly English way of distorting your own name when using Latin script? or: do 'English people' really do so? and if so: why? and where do they get such ideas from?). I did not pursue the matter at the time, since it was bound to become too personal. I may add that Balaji Hebbar's orthography is not standard. School children here in Mysore, like my daughter, learn that they live in 'Karnataka', with the final -a. RZ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 30 21:47:59 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 30 May 99 14:47:59 -0700 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms Message-ID: <161227049727.23782.13580735378190002103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In continuation of this topic, >Was the authorship of the only genuine(?) stotra of zankara due to the need >to counter the ziva dakSiNAmUrti devotional cult of the Tamil country? > Could you tell us about the significant features of the Tamil dakshiNAmUrti devotional cult? Was Siva-dakshiNAmUrti primarily viewed as a guru, rather than as the creator? Was there a great emphasis on Siva's teaching through silence (mauna-vyAkhyA), and on Siva as a youth teaching old disciples (vRddhAH zishyAH, gurur yuva)? What do the Tamil sources say? Finally, had the dakshiNAmUrti conception entered Chera land in early times, or did it remain confined to Madurai and the pANDyan kingdom? It is a central feature of Sankara's advaita vedAnta that silence is the supreme teaching of the Atman (re: the story of bashkala quoted in his bhAshya). This is also a central feature of Sanskrit texts like the dakshiNAmUrti upanishad etc. Siva teaching through silence is a powerful symbol for advaita vedAnta, and there is no reason why this should not have been so from the earliest times. Secondly, viewing these religious relationships as countering one another results from an over-emphasis of the notion that Sankara's thought had no use for a God. This is not really the case. It is also not well appreciated that Sankara and sureSvara gave great importance to yoga. Siva as a yogin is again a powerful symbol. It might well be that Sankara composed a hymn to dakshiNAmUrti because of the possibilities offered by the religious symbolism of Siva as the teacher. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 30 21:58:18 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 30 May 99 14:58:18 -0700 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms Message-ID: <161227049730.23782.14176301953738341086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Congratulations, Dr. Palaniappan for an excellent analysis of Madurai and Chidambaram myths. Hope scholars will begin to take a closer look at the relations between Kashmiri texts and the Southern Saivaite ones. The traditional rivalry between Chidambaram and Madurai legends can been seen in the creation of two versions of Bhakta vilAsams in Sanskrit. These bhakta vilAsams are adaptations/translations from Tamil PeriapurANam. One is Agastya bhakta vilAsam, (representing Madurai branch?) and the other is Upamanyu bhakta vilAsam, representing Chidambaram branch. It will be interesting and worthwhile to compare these two Sanskrit texts. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Mon May 31 01:43:31 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sun, 30 May 99 21:43:31 -0400 Subject: Original Sanskrit Names Message-ID: <161227049732.23782.15382594747963958180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will not dispute what you have said. It indeed makes sense. But we must remember that the PAli word for the Sanskrit "lakShaNa" is "lakkhana" as in "tilakkana" for "trilaShaNa" (the 3 marks of "existence") that the Buddha talked about. From my youth I have only heard it as being "LakShaNapuri". Anyway, I am afterall from the South and I am inclined to think that you know better as you are from the North. Perhaps, both "lakShmaNa" and "lakShaNa" are possible. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Mon May 31 01:47:21 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sun, 30 May 99 21:47:21 -0400 Subject: HastAmalaka etc. Message-ID: <161227049734.23782.13894318475426943207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr.Sundaresan: I apologize for misunderstanding you. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 31 07:08:15 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 00:08:15 -0700 Subject: Inquiry: Yoga forum on e-mail Message-ID: <161227049740.23782.16791203753767195704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Can anybody give me Dr Ashok Aklujkar's e-mail address in >Germany? fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 31 11:35:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 04:35:19 -0700 Subject: Epic MaNimEkalai Message-ID: <161227049745.23782.16653889931410421057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Dr. Chevillard. To my knowledge, UVS' editions of Manimekalai do NOT mention the 1891 edition, the first edition in print, by Tirumayilai Canmukam Pillai. That's probably the reason why European and American works of Manimekalai say UVS is the person who edited M. for the first time. UVS' edition came seven years later. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 31 12:08:18 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 05:08:18 -0700 Subject: The place name, AihoLe Message-ID: <161227049747.23782.13676009104844243218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Shri. B. Hebbar and others, Greetings. Interested in the meaning of the Karnataka town, AihoLe. Important Chalukya temple site and center of the merchant guilds called maNigrAma. Does hoLe mean garden/park etc., in Kannada? What does the "ai" in aihoLe stand for? Does "ai" mean five OR beauty? Thanks for your guidance, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM Mon May 31 05:50:53 1999 From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 06:50:53 +0100 Subject: Inquiry: Yoga forum on e-mail Message-ID: <161227049737.23782.17348935518542739744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May 31, 99 List members: Does anybody know if there exists an e-mail forum for exchange of information on Yoga? Can anybody give me Dr Ashok Aklujkar's e-mail address in Germany? Thanks. K S Arjunwadkar From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Mon May 31 07:45:26 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 09:45:26 +0200 Subject: Epic MaNimEkalai In-Reply-To: <19990529231135.55223.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227049742.23782.18282101349813324942.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A 16:11 29/05/99 PDT, N.ganesan a ?crit : > >Some years before Thiru. UVS published his MaNimEkalai edition, >a full maNimEkalai edition has appeared in print. In 1894 A.D. >That editor was Tirumayilai CaNmukam PiLLai, a student of >puracaippAkkam aTTAvatAn2am capApati mutaliyAr. >I had the honor of holding the first M. editon in Maraimalai ATikaL >library, Chennai. ........ > .............. >It is important that this First edition of Tirumayilai >CaNmukam PiLLai be reprinted as such by photographic scanning. > ................ > >Does UVS mention about Tirumayilai CaNmukam PiLLai's earlier >edition in his MaNimEkalai edition? I am having 7th printing (1981) which is (I hope) almost identical to 3rd edition (1931) (UVS passed away in 1942). I don't think I have seen reference in its preface to tirumayilai caNmukam piLLai's edition, but it may have escaped me... HOWEVER, in his autobiography (chap.121, "maNimEkalaip patippu Arampam"), UVS writes the following (2-Am patippu, 1982): "maNimEkalaiyin2 mUlam mAttiram 1891-Am varuSam tirumayilai vittuvAn2 caNmukam piLLaiyAl acciTappeRRatu. poruL varaiyaRai ceytu koLLAmalE pala viTaGkaLil ETTiluLLa pATaGkaLai avar amaittiruntAr. antap piratiyaik koNTu nUR poruLai nan2ku aRital ciramamAkavE irukkum" (p.754-755) UVS then quotes a long comment (13 lines) from a letter (dated 29-3-1891) to him by ti.ta.kan2aka cuntaram piLLai on that edition's bad quality. The english translation (S.K.Guruswamy) of the abridged Tamil Edition (I do not have Zvelebil's full translation at hand) reads as: <> (p.376) I hope this is useful -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) > >Regards, >N. Ganesan From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Mon May 31 14:57:48 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 10:57:48 -0400 Subject: The place name, AihoLe Message-ID: <161227049753.23782.11116492131084380841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shri Ganesan: "hoLe" by itself in KannaDa stands for "river". Will try to get complete meaning of AihoLe later. Regards, Hebbar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 31 18:18:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 11:18:07 -0700 Subject: The place name, AihoLe Message-ID: <161227049758.23782.4639077606021539369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >"hoLe" by itself in KannaDa stands for "river". Will try to >get complete meaning of AihoLe later. I think "hoLe" is related to Ta. pozhil. In ta., pozhil is flower garden, (by the riverside?) aihoLe's old name is ayyavoLe; Is the "hoLe" in hoLe narsipur something similar to what is in aihoLe? Two ancient inscriptions, describing the guild of 500 from 1000 directions, have been found at 1) Sarkar Periyapalayam (40 feet X 27 feet) and 2) at Piranmalai. They describe the guilds as "ayyampozhil". aihoLe, ayyavoLe are related to the ta. cognate, "ayyampozhil". "ayya" may refer to beautiful. The mercantile guild is divided into 5 groups, which are lised in those inscriptions. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon May 31 19:50:52 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 12:50:52 -0700 Subject: [Request for info] Avestan and Vedic Message-ID: <161227049760.23782.8594539830157211585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The results may not be very different from Indology. --- "S.Kalyanaraman" wrote: > Dear George Thompson, > Me too; I will also be interested in learning more about Avestan and Vedic; I > would like to understand the bases for controversies regarding a hypothetical > proto-Indo-Iranian and the relative chronology between Vedic and Avestan; in > case you find any relevant lists or references, please do let me know. I > would > deeply appreciate it. > Thanks for your consideration and with the best regards, > Kalyanaraman > > George Thompson wrote: > > Dear Indology List Members, > > > > As a sincere student of Old Indo-Iranian literature, I am seeking an e-mail > > list devoted to the dispassionate scholarly [that is, philological] study > > of Old Indo-Iranian texts like the Vedic Rgveda and the Avestan Gathas. > > > > I know that this sort of thing is not appropriate on your list, devoted as > > it is to partisan personal attacks, but since it is *fairly close* to your > > stated interests, I thought that some of you might be aware of *other* > > lists where people like myself might find informed discussion of relevant > > matters. > > > > I'd be grateful for any and all recommendations, > > > > Sincerely, > > > > George Thompson > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at > http://webmail.netscape.com. > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon May 31 19:53:00 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 12:53:00 -0700 Subject: The place name, AihoLe Message-ID: <161227049762.23782.13496159775364804011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Erik Seldeslachts wrote: > aihoLe < ayyAvoLe < Aryapura, according to Nundo Lal Dey, The Geographical > Dictionary of Ancient and Medieval India, London 1927. To me this seems > convincing. There is no connection between 'pura' and ka. 'hoLe'; May be because, N. L. De had little, if any, experience in Dravidian languages. Yours, SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon May 31 20:03:21 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 13:03:21 -0700 Subject: Buddhist revival movement in India Message-ID: <161227049764.23782.10944205398983441267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Balaji Hebbar wrote: > Also, though Buddhism was born in India it is today found > everywhere in East Asia except India (neo-Buddhists excepted). > Similarly, though Christianity was born in Israel, it is today > found in Europe and not in Israel. I presume the national > religions in both cases (Hinduism and Judaism) were rather > deep-rooted among the peoples of India and Israel. The reform > religions Buddhism and Christianity just didn't hit home with > them. Indologists I do need your kind and esteemed feedback on > this. I have friends from Lebanon who are Christians always; They gave me photos of rock craved Roman churches in Petra. There are some Christians in the area of Israel. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 31 20:49:29 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 13:49:29 -0700 Subject: Chitrapur Saraswats Message-ID: <161227049767.23782.3567084485425017109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri Hebbar, >?From Saraswat Vol. 1 No.1, by Suryakanth Kamath, chief editor, Karnataka Gazetteer, available online at - "A note on the Chitrapur Saraswats may not be out of place here. There have been efforts to claim that these Saraswats are no way connected with Gauda Saraswats. Dr. R. N. Saletore (Vide Dr. Gopal C. Hattangadi (Ed.), Fifty Years of Bliss, Bombay 1965) while speaking of Gauda Saraswats as 'Konkanas' and distinguishing them from the Chitrapur Saraswats holds that, "These two communltles are quite distinct" (p.269). But the arguments he extends to support this view in his writing hold no water. In fact, the very documents of the Chitrapura Matha speak of its followers as Gauda Saraswats and Conlon, who has written a scholarly book on the Chitrapur Saraswats has accepted that they belong to the Gauda Saraswat stock. The Deity worshipped by the Swamis of Kavale Matha and of Chitrapur Matha is Bhavanishankar, and the followers of the Chitrapur Matha were originally the followers of the Kavale Matha. "The ancestors of the Saraswat jati were descendants of brahman families of Goa. These families were part of the cluster known collectively in later times as Gaud Saraswat Brahmans (Conlon, p. 14)" The last reference is to Frank A. Conlon, A Caste in the Changing World: The Chitrapur Saraswat Brahmans: 1700-1935 University California Press, 1977. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Mon May 31 14:46:26 1999 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 16:46:26 +0200 Subject: varna/>Indians in Persian Empire Message-ID: <161227049750.23782.9603046168183375515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 27 May 99 at 15:22, Vishal Agarwal wrote: > > It would be worthwhile to investigate if the Indians in the territories of > Darius are ever mentioned as dark. Because according to AIT, the Indians in > the territories under the control of Persians could not have been residents > there for more than 6-10 centuries. > Ctesias around 400 BCE stated that the common (Greek) idea that Indians were all black was not correct: There were both dark and fair- skinned Indians as he had himself seen in the Persian court. Greetings Klaus Karttunen From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Mon May 31 16:01:40 1999 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 18:01:40 +0200 Subject: The place name, AihoLe Message-ID: <161227049755.23782.9912873887019843534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > Interested in the meaning of the Karnataka town, AihoLe. > Important Chalukya temple site and center of the merchant guilds > called maNigrAma. aihoLe < ayyAvoLe < Aryapura, according to Nundo Lal Dey, The Geographical Dictionary of Ancient and Medieval India, London 1927. To me this seems convincing. Erik Seldeslachts From bprasad at NETCOM.COM Mon May 31 01:13:45 1999 From: bprasad at NETCOM.COM (Bal Prasad) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 01:13:45 +0000 Subject: [Q]: Research on Marathas in TN Message-ID: <161227049784.23782.3274409465396616373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am trying to get information regarding the group of Maharashtrians who went to Tamil Nadu during the Peshwa era and who are often referred to as TDB (Thanjavur Deshasta Brahmins). A large number of them settled around Thanjavur and they founded the Sarasvati Mahal library there. I have been told that the migration happened during the reign of Kings Shivaji and Sambhaji. I would like to know if anything has been published about them. TIA, Prasad From dasa at OZEMAIL.COM.AU Mon May 31 12:38:17 1999 From: dasa at OZEMAIL.COM.AU (Ramadas) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 22:38:17 +1000 Subject: New list / new rules (RE: Request for Info) Message-ID: <161227049769.23782.16053531335233435947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: jneuss Sent: Sunday, 30 May 1999 5:48 > Dear List Members > > George Thompson wrote: > I fully agree with George Thompson's view of the nature of our list, or > rather what this list has degenerated to. When I joined the list about > two years ago, most of the topics discussed were of interest to broader > circles of indologists and most messages contained profound and > interesting views and informations. So, in your opinion, only certain topics actually fall within the boundaries of the Indology list. Am I correct in my reading that only the topics which interest you are of importance -- the interests of the other members are of no importance? From reading the above it seems that subject matter which does not interest you fails to fall under the **profound and interesting** category. > These times, after three days or so, hundreds of messages pile up in our > Inbox folders, which are for their most part, to be frank with you, of > no value to most of us (I assume), or at least to me. Now, let me get this straight. You are complaining to the list administrator that the quality and quantity of messages on the Indology list do not come up to your standards because they are of no value to you and it is time for him to fix the problem. Is this right? [..] > I am sure many former members of this list have already cancelled their > subscription. Like George Thompson I wonder where these scholars > currently discuss matters and whether there is another indological list. > If so, would somebody be kind enough to inform me (privately) about it? [..] > Alternatively, would it be possible to reorganize this list, or set up > another one with a set of somewhat stricter guidelines regarding > subject, content, length and amount of messages? Ah, I see! You wish to belong to an exclusive little club which has a restricted range of topics worthy of discussion and which is only open to those who agree with your ideas. > Be sure that I feel very uncomfortable writing this (last) message, > before I cancel my subscription in a couple of days. But in my opinion > this is not a scholarly forum anymore. > > Juergen Neuss > Freie Universitaet Berlin It is interesting to note that on one subject which has been under considerable discussion in the past few days, there have been at least 15 different authors. This same applies to at least one other discussion. Now, if such a good cross section of the Indology list engaging in spirited discussion amounts to ** ''what this list has degenerated to'' ** then I just do not know how such "degeneration" can be redressed. Perhaps it boils down to Mr Juergen Neuss putting his pen to paper, or should I day digit to keyboard, and giving us an example of the sort of things which should be under discussion. It is all very well to criticise, but unless he wishes to set the example of how things should be done, then his post is decidedly one which should be placed immediately in the trash can. Kindest regards from an Indology member who deletes messages when necessary but who relishes reading those which are of interest. Ramadas dasa at ozemail.com.au From dasa at OZEMAIL.COM.AU Mon May 31 12:52:27 1999 From: dasa at OZEMAIL.COM.AU (Ramadas) Date: Mon, 31 May 99 22:52:27 +1000 Subject: New list / new rules (RE: Request for Info) Message-ID: <161227049771.23782.16480091195389236703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruth Laila Schmidt Sent: Sunday, 30 May 1999 7:59 > Dear members of the list, > > I agree with Juergen Neuss. Things have gotten to the point where the first > thing I do every morning is delete a great many messages posted by a > relatively small number of people - without reading them. I probably miss > some messages of genuine interest, but I don't have time to sort them out > from the polemics. > > With best wishes, > > Ruth Schmidt In reference to your statement ** a great many messages posted by a relatively small number of people ** , please count up the number of members who are engaging in these areas of discussion. I think you will find that ** relatively small number of people ** is a gross injustice to the large cross section of contributors. In fact, I fancy I even saw at least one posting from yourself. Are you also placing yourself in this category? ;-) Kindest regards Ramadas dasa at ozemail.com.au From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Mon May 31 22:31:23 1999 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 00:31:23 +0200 Subject: Resist! Message-ID: <161227049773.23782.18299536272355838721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ramadas schrieb: > So, in your opinion, only certain topics actually fall within the boundaries > of the Indology list. Am I correct in my reading that only the topics which > interest you are of importance -- the interests of the other members are of > no importance? From reading the above it seems that subject matter which > does not interest you fails to fall under the **profound and interesting** > category. pretty much so considering the interests of those who initiated this list andkept it running in the beginning by discussing matters on the basis of rational arguments. Now some people (me included) have the impression that a hoard of fanatics unites once a day to invent a plethora of nonsential messages to suffocate the list, being fully aware of the fact that the rest of the list members is rather short of time trying to do serious work. Why so? I will never get the answer as I have started to delete all messages coming from those well-known members who obviously have nothing else to do but to transform every unripe idea into a fully grown email. We should not turn our back to this list with its ever-growing mass of sub-standard emails. We should find a way to survive the present conditions. The idea to have this list was great and it still deserves to be supported. Harry Falk From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Mon May 31 23:00:11 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 10:00:11 +1100 Subject: The scope of INDOLOGY (was Resist!) Message-ID: <161227049775.23782.2249798849568414398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It may be helpful to re-read Dominik's comments from the Indology list home base at: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indnet-scope.html These paragraphs define a list I want to remain a member of The scope of INDOLOGY I started the INDOLOGY discussion list in 1990 as a forum for Sanskritists, MIA and NIA language specialists, Dravidologists, historians, and others interested in any aspect of Indological studies. That includes other languages, of course, and anything related. It's not restricted, except that I feel that discussions about contemporary politics and social issues are better carried out in Usenet groups like soc.culture.india and similar forums. ..... As a rough guide to subject content, if you enjoy receiving journals like the JAOS, JRAS, BSOAS, IIJ, etc., then INDOLOGY is for you! If you don't recognize these acronyms, think twice before joining. The forum is targetted at professional participants in Indological studies, and is not primarily a forum for discussions with undergraduates or scholars from other fields who have an amateur interest in Indian history and culture. For example, if you do not recognise any of the above acronyms, or never read any of these journals, or if you never attend academic conferences in some aspect of INDOLOGY, then perhaps another forum would be more appropriate for you, since you will not be on the same wavelength as the other members. Of course non-professionals are welcome to join the list if they wish, but elementary questions and discussions about Indian history and culture should be addressed elsewhere. The discourse in INDOLOGY assumes a familiarity with the specialist literature of the subjects discussed. From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Tue May 11 19:28:42 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Tue, 11 May 99 15:28:42 -0400 Subject: Rigveda: dravidian word kun.d.apa_yya Message-ID: <161227048750.23782.589392191880364778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: S.Kalyanaraman >> translations, Kun.d.apa_yya > is interpreated as a name, a grandson of Indra. [an > indication that indra = > indha, kindling ember]. > There is also this word Ta. "indhaLam" (or in HK: intaLam) meaning "a dish holding embers" [employed in maturaikkAJci]. >???From indha + aLam (aLam = place)? There is also an Tamil name "intaLam" and "mutirnta intaLam" ("mature intaLam") for pentatonic melodies belonging to marutam and kuRiJci classes of melodies (pAlai or yAz). The online Tamil lexicon lists: intaLam 1. incensory, censer 2. an ancient secondary melody-type of the marutam class 3. chafing dish, used for warming (TLS) > n. [%{as} m. L.] , a bowlshaped vessel , basin , bowl , > pitcher , pot , > water-pot Ka1tyS3r. MBh. &c.; a vessel for coals R. v , 10 , > 16 &c. (Cologne > Sanskrit lexicon) > > But, kun.d.e = bottom of a vessel (Kannada)(DEDR 1693A). Is the word > in the RV a word drawn from the dravidian substratum? Would appreciate > comments. > In classical Tamil, kuNDu = deep as in "kuNDu cun2ai pUtta ..." (tirumurukARRuppaTai:199) -->"...[flowers] that blossomed in deep rock wells..." " tiN tEr kuzitta kuNTu neTu teruvil" (perumpANARRUppaTai:397) -->"in the long avenues with deep imprints by the [treads of] strong chariots " There are other phrases such as "kuNDu kaN akazi" (puRanAn2URu:21:2) -->"deep moats" It is also worth noting the family of words employed in CT such as "kuDam", "kuDai", "koDu" etc., in the sense of curved, crooked, bent or spherical. kuDam = pot; kuDai = umbrella; koDu = crooked; kODu = shell, conch. > Regards, > Kalyanaraman > Regards, Chandra