From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Mon Mar 1 02:30:16 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu_=24kepti=EF=BF=BD?=) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 21:30:16 -0500 Subject: Personal attacks on the list In-Reply-To: <199902282024.OAA285914@spnode01.tcs.tulane.edu> Message-ID: <161227047088.23782.11754188364600153549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 28 Feb 99, Kandiah Ramanitharan wrote: > I am not an indology expert, but just a silent observer in this forum for > some time. I used to send mails in other forums in pesudonames, but not > abusive. (When Iwant to abuse someone, I wish to do the abuse in my own On the contrary, I do have four ISP accounts which I can use to gain access to internet but make it a point to use only one identity and one email address all the time when subscribing to any list. If some one were to check my IP address, he would be equally confused since IP address is not a definite criteria to find some one's identity. It seems that these people who have abused the list did not have access to more than one ISP or were too ignorant. I hope it gets you in the best of spirits. ?1999 Aditya Mishra homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya or http://members.rediff.com/adityanm Page me online via http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1131674 Random thought of the day: What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others. ---Confucius From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Mar 1 05:40:29 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 00:40:29 -0500 Subject: Personal attacks on the list In-Reply-To: <199902281240.NAA05815@vega.inec.cz> Message-ID: <161227047090.23782.487619548656518084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Domink, Why not block this "hotmail" nonsense? In this group someone essentially has an affiliation, right? The abusive languages used appear to prove the suspicion by some. Please advise all properly. Bijoy On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Petr Mares wrote: > The IP address 192.31.86.34 translates to a system named > proxy2a.lmco.com. > > lmco.com is the domain name for Lockheed Martin..... > > Lockheed-Martin Corporation > 1401 Del Norte Street > Denver, Co 80221 > tel: 303-430-2049 > Fax: 303-657-5789 > > Sincerely > > > Petr Mares > Lengqie Research > Hlavacova 1163 > 182 00, Prague 8 > Czech Republic > Fax:420-2-2423-9157 > Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 > email: lengqie at gmx.net > From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Mar 1 11:51:32 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 06:51:32 -0500 Subject: Another obscurity in Belvalkar's Gita edition Message-ID: <161227047105.23782.1225434448320507399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Verse 13.13 of Belvalkar's 1962 edition Bhagavad Gita with Agrawal's Hindi translation reads "...sarvato'kSiziromukham |" but he then corrects himself in his list of errata corrections (which is immediately after chapter 18) and says the correct reading should be "...sarvatokSiziromukham". Since it was originally one way and then he changed it, he seems to have given some thought to the matter and considered it a matter of at least some small at least minor importance. The edition is consistent in always using avagraha for elided "a" after "o" or "e" except for this and one other occurance also elided "a" after "o" which is verse 10.41. About which Dr. Killingley wrote: >> Verse 10.41 "tejoMzasambhavan". > >This is also insignificant, but for a different reason. There is >considerable variation in practice with avagraha. It's treated as >an aid to the reader rather than an integral part of the text, which >explains why some people use it where word-initial "a" is elided >after word-final "A". > Any opinions about what the issue is here? Are these two different cases? P.S. I did find in his list of errata corrections that verse 18.72 "praNaSTas" is a misprint which he corrects to "pranaSTas". Also could someone tell me what does the B.O.R.I. critical edition have for verse 2.5: "mahAnubhAvAJ zreyo" as per Van Buitenen's Gita. or "mahAnubhAvAJchreyo" as per Belvalkar's 1962 edition. Many thanks Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Mar 1 13:06:13 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 08:06:13 -0500 Subject: Another obscurity in Belvalkar's Gita edition In-Reply-To: <19990301115133.22702.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047112.23782.4228135620348754823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the verse BG 2.5, the reading of the critical edition (without any variants) is: "mahAnubhAvAJ zreyo" as per Van Buitenen's Gita. However, the change of z to ch being one of the optional sandhis allowed, it would not change the value of the text significantly. Madhav Deshpande From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 1 13:29:24 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 08:29:24 -0500 Subject: Yet another areal feature in SA languages? In-Reply-To: <36DA27F5.F3BCFF4D@ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227047110.23782.11722477992494950746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since this now has nothing to do with Indology, I'll make this the last: >Regarding the Japanese -te shimau connection, it is to be noted that the >completive aspect of this construction applies throughout *all* tenses >and forms, and is not limited to the past. yes, this is correct. > >The feature of undesirability however is characteristic for the past >tense -te shimatta, and even then it is not always present. As an >example, the grammar book cites "boku wa osake o nonde shimatta" which >could mean, depending on the situation, (a) I finished drinking sake, >(b) I drank sake (which I shouldn't have done). Neither I nor Birgit (nor Michael Witzel, I may add) are native speakers of Japanese. But according to my wife, who is a native speaker, there certainly *is* a negative connotation in this expression; my wife says it may also mean, in addition to "oops... I really should not have drank this", "unwillingly or without intending to, I drank the sake." Therefore the English (a) is not correct. Perhaps "undesirability" is the wrong word... The point to be stressed is that the outcome is not desirable (or the speaker wishes to convey the impression that he thinks/should think it undesirable; I drank all the sake, so there's none left for you! (there's only beer left) = boku wa osake o nonde shimatta; biiru shika nokote inai. Whether that's really undesirable depends on the friendship with the guest... >As should become obvious from these examples, it is not really >meaningful to analyze features such as the (un)desirability of an >action/state under the heading of verb *aspect*; they are better treated >in the domain of pragmatics, i.e. as situation-dependent attitudes on >the part of speakers/hearers. Perhaps this is so in general, but at least with this particular construction, aspect seems fine. We need the comments of a Japanese linguist, I think... But privately I think. Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From shrao at IA.NET Mon Mar 1 15:23:05 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 09:23:05 -0600 Subject: Advaita-Chandran In-Reply-To: <01be6343$b615e740$01afaccf@ramakris> Message-ID: <161227047114.23782.4132726310146395469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote: > No, never said that. I only said that the _prima-facie_ interpretation > of upanishhads (early ones) is _closer_ to the interpretation of > sha.nkara and that the _prima-facie_ interpretation of the brahma > sUtras is closer to Ramanuja's interpretation. What I meant by the > statement you quote is that the prima-facie interpretation of > statements in those upanishhads that lend some support to > AnandatIrthas theories are "dubious". More about this later. He also > quotes early Upanishads, there's no question about that. The prima facie interpretation of certain statements in the Upanishads may appear closer to that of Shankara, no doubt, but it could hardly be said that they are consistently so -- for instance, creation is consisently described in such detail, and Mukhya PraaNa is lauded in several canonical Upanishads, yet Shankara has no use for these concepts. > basically identifies himself as Madhva. The sarvadarshana-sangraha > written by mAdhava (identified with vidyAraNya, an advaitin and _not_ > madhva!) a junior contemporary of AnandatIrtha (or slightly later) > describes the doxography of various philosophical schools. When he > talks about dvaita he sarcastically refers to "Madhva" as "This > mystery was promulgated by pUrNa-praGYa mandira, who esteemed himself > the third incarnation of vAyu", page 102, translation by E.B.Cowell. I fear the "sarcasm" and the "mystery" are all the work of the translator, and not the original author. I'd be careful about drawing inferences from misinformed secondary sources. I have seen the actual text and can quote original statements. Although it is without doubt that Sayana's intention was ultimately to refute Madhva, there is no overt "sarcasm" to be had, and he correctly quotes RV I.141-1, etc., as per Madhva's own statements. > About pramANa-s: The first is from a secondary source and was given to > me by a scholar of Ramanujas philosophy, who is also well read in the > system of sha.nkara and "Madhva". He pointed out to me one of Madhvas > curious statement. Apparently he says that not only will he quote from > shAstra-s written prior to him and being written now, he'll also quote > from shAstras which will be written in the future!!! And where exactly did Madhva say this? Let's be specific, now. > Aptly, when he > wants to split sandhi in the chhAndogya statement "AtmAtatvamasi" > (usually given a non-dualist meaning) as AtmA - atattvamasi (Atman, > that thou art NOT) he quotes some weird text called the brahma-tarka!! > In other places he quotes an unknown text called parama-upanishhad! He > quotes many dubious texts and not just upanishhads. However, should you care to note the sarva-darshana-saN^graha you referred to above, you would observe that Sayana himself has quoted Madhva's parama-shruti quotes in support of the latter's interpretation of the `prapaJNcho yadi vidyeta' verse. Clearly, Sayana had little reservation about the veracity of the paramopanishhad; Sridhara Swami had none, for he quotes it himself. Both the parama-shruti and the brahma-tarka have been accepted as Shruti and Smrti respectively by Madhusudana Saraswati, whose opinion in this matter cannot be lightly discarded. Several of Madhva's "dubious texts" have also been quoted by Shankara (for ex.: paiN^gi-shruti), Sureshvara (for ex.: bhAllaveya-shruti), etc. Last but not the least, "untraceable" quotes are not wanting in the works of Shankara, etc., either. I could find a dozen examples without breaking a sweat. > When he talks > about the mANDUkya he says it was revealed by vishhNu in the form of a > frog. The text quoted is a verse from garuDa (or nArada, sorry I am > quoting from memory). But Karmarkar in his study of the gauDapAda > kArikas points out that this verse is not to be found in any extant > manuscript of the purANa. Not exactly. The original statement in this regard was by the late Vidhushekhara Bhattacharya, who only said in his 1942 work that he had been unable to trace the quotes in *printed texts* of the Garuda; this point was later repeated by R.D. Karmarkar and T.M.P. Mahadevan in 1952 and 1953 respectively, without crediting the original source; also, Karmarkar, et al. have given a very crass interpretation of Madhva's statement that the Upanishad was revealed by `maNDUka-rUpI bhagavAn.h -- it can mean bhagavAn.h in the form of the sage maNDUka, rather than bhagavAn.h in the form of the animal that is called maNDUka. Clear references to the sage maNDUka exist in the Atharva-veda (not some untraced quotes by Madhva, but even as commented upon by Sayana), and a Smrti composition by the same person (called a `shixA') in some 200-odd verses was published in Lahore in 1921 (a later reprint is in my possession). Lastly, we must note that there is no obvious explanation why the Upanishad would be called `mANDUkya', except by way of Madhva's explanation -- unlike the IshAvAsya, kena, etc., the name cannot be traced to its own contents. > One could say that these texts might be lost. Perhaps so in the case > of purANa-s, but it is somewhat curious that the upanishhads like the > parama and other texts like brahma-tarka which he uses in _key_ places > have not been conserved by his school, A valid criticism, but not one that uniquely applies to Madhva's tradition; others could also be similarly faulted. > "V.S. Ghate in the book 'The vedanta, a study of BS with the bhashyas > of Shankara, Ramanuja, Nimbaraka, Madhva, and Vallabha.' compares a > few major suutras. He concludes that Madhva's commentary on > brahmasuutra is not only inadequate, but makes unreasonable and > distorted interpretations of statements, and often gives scriptural > citations of doubtful authority. " Ghate's remarks have been reviewed by B.N.K. Sharma in his `History of the Dvaita School', to which attention may be drawn in this regard; a complete picture cannot be formed without hearing both sides. I have carte blanche from Dr. Sharma to quote his works in any amount, but would like to avoid taking advantage of his kind offer; if you have real difficulty laying hands on the HDSV, I will give highlights of the relevant portion. > Perhaps, that will give some more instances of "dubious" claims. This > all points out to the evolution of what "authoritative" texts are. A > great discussion of evolution of "authoritative statements" by Prof > Aklujkar can be found in > > http://www.columbia.edu/cu/dhirc/1994-95seminars.html > > under "Twists and Turns in the Transition from Veda to Vedanta". His analysis is interesting, but at least in his thoughts re the mANDUkya, the contents thereof are not beyond dispute. As for the rest, the term `vedAnta' is interpreted as referring to the Upanishads, or as coming at the "end of the Vedas," only by the Advaitic tradition, so his criticism of that view only applies to them. > Even then Madhva is probably an extreme in the spectrum because he > probably really believed he was an incarnation of vAyu and hence could > "see" upanishhads and other texts which others could not. So, as an > exegite he is very uninteresting since he can quote arbitrary things > as shruti or smR^iti, which he seems to do (by the status of being > vAyu!). But from a philosophical standpoint he is certainly > interesting. It would be as well if you would at least make the effort to stick to facts and first-hand sources; speculating based on uninformed latter-day ones is hardly well advised. > PS: BTW, Madhva also claims he read various commentaries on the > bhAgavata purANa, including one by hanumAn! The first example of > anyone quoting hanumAn as an exegite!! All right, I'm calling your bluff. Where did Madhva say that? Madhva did quote what is said to have been an ancient Pancharatra commentary on the Bhagavata, called the `tantra-bhAgavata', and this text is also quoted from by Sridhara Swami and Jiva Goswami. No other full-scale gloss is referred to, and its authorship is not stated. Regards, Shrisha Rao From jkcowart at CARI.NET Mon Mar 1 18:09:05 1999 From: jkcowart at CARI.NET (J. Kingston Cowart) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 10:09:05 -0800 Subject: Advaita-Chandran (edress problem) Message-ID: <161227047120.23782.5214915453131099518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have gone twice to and attempted then to go to "Twists and Turns in the Transition from Veda to Vedanta", but each time I have received a notice that the edress for the latter is "invalid." Yours truly, John J. Kingston Cowart, M.S. San Diego, California From lengqie at GMX.NET Mon Mar 1 10:35:50 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 11:35:50 +0100 Subject: Personal attacks on the list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047097.23782.506828224582052846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > A very good observation ! The IP addresses translate into : > > 192.31.86.34 = proxy2a.lmco.com and 204.68.140.34 = proxy1a.lmco.com. Dear Sir The case with proxy as you explain is fine but is there a chance the these five people will use the same proxy in the office and another (but all one) ISP at home all of them same ISP at home in Houston and all of them same proxy at work?? The ISP address as you may see is not a proxy by Dynamic adress from the same provider. Sw. Madhuresan 192.31.86.34 lm corp 216.118.10.235 Savvis ISP Venk. Iyer 204.68.140.34 lm corp 209.44.32.18 Savvis ISP Chr. Fernandez 204.68.140.34 lm corp 216.118.10.223 Savvis ISP Naga Ganesan 192.31.86.34 LM Corp 209.223.24.185 Savvis ISP Keith Williams 192.31.86.34 LM Corp It certainly van be proven. Except that you can look at the melody their voices play. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Mon Mar 1 06:18:04 1999 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 11:48:04 +0530 Subject: Personal attacks on the list In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990228065057.0087e5f0@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227047095.23782.16898969998103169351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A very good observation ! The IP addresses translate into : 192.31.86.34 = proxy2a.lmco.com and 204.68.140.34 = proxy1a.lmco.com. 1. Unfortunately, these are both PROXY servers for Lockheed-Martin, which means that any Tom, Dick and Harry of Lockheed sending emails would have that same IP address. The fact that there are 2 proxies means there are an aweful lot of people using them (Hint: Lockheed is a big corporation). There could be 1000s of computers there using the proxies. That means that any Dravidian employed by Lockheed when sending mails would appear to have the same proxy IP. 2. If the default setting of these proxies is still in place ie. `GLOBAL', any Tom, Dick and Harry not just from Lockheed, but from anywhere in the world can use these proxies and the emails will appear to come from the same IP address. Just because the emails come through a proxy server does not mean that they originate at the proxy server. How ? Check your Netscape Options or Network Preferences and look under proxies. Just fill in the correct address and port numbers and there you go ! I can't tell you which port numbers, because that would waste my quota on this list, which is not devoted to teaching such tricks. Proxies are set up with 2 things in mind: - To protect internal networks from external attacks - To protect freedom of speech, which is gauranteed to each internet and email user by allowing persons to connect to the internet through the proxy, thereby obscuring their place of origin. 3. If Ganesan wanted to do such a thing, there was no need to sign up all accounts from hotmail. He could have got free email accounts from www.rocketmail.com, www.mailcity.com, www.excite.com, www.yahoo.com, www.netforward.com, www.angelfire.com, www.fortunecity.com or any of the 1000s of free email providers out there. To have all people signed up at hotmail would make things just too obvious. Besides, who is to say that Chris Fernandez is not a relative of Ganesan, who also signed up at hotmail, and allowed Ganesan to send his emails ? 4. He could also forge his opponents' emails if he wanted using any of the publicly available forge-your-email servers. That would be more effective than signing up to many hotmail accounts, and would make a fool of his opponents in a much stronger way. He could also use a proxy other than, or in addition to, the Lockheed one, which would effectively change his IP address to an arbitrary one. In other words, since the IP node in question is a Proxy server, the allegations effectively have no meaning. Nothing can be `proven' from our detectives' results. However, I must congratulate our detectives for having discovered this circumstance. Moreover, even if these are all one person (something which cannot be proven) he has only used his freedom of speech gauranteed to him under the Second Amendment of the USA, and the Internet tradition (which is not a crime). Samar From P.Wehmeyer at UNI-KOELN.DE Mon Mar 1 10:56:00 1999 From: P.Wehmeyer at UNI-KOELN.DE (Petra Wehmeyer) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 11:56:00 +0100 Subject: New Projects in KOLAM (fwd) Message-ID: <161227047102.23782.8768233444618040767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:29:37 +0100 From: Indologie To: p.wehmeyer at uni-koeln.de Subject: New Projects in KOLAM Hello! We have started our new projects in the on-line journal KOLAM (http://www.uni-kowln.de/phil-fak/indologie/kolam/frame.html) One project is on Kuruntokai: analysis and translation of the poems along with the commentary. The other aims at setting up a website concerning U. Ve. Caminataiyar. We would appreciate contributions, comments, etc. etc. For the editors, Ulrike Niklas From P.Wehmeyer at UNI-KOELN.DE Mon Mar 1 10:56:41 1999 From: P.Wehmeyer at UNI-KOELN.DE (Petra Wehmeyer) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 11:56:41 +0100 Subject: KOLAM: Call for papers (fwd) Message-ID: <161227047099.23782.17017971656551113424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:33:47 +0100 From: Indologie To: p.wehmeyer at uni-koeln.de Subject: KOLAM: Call for papers Hello! KOLAM 3 is uploaded. The preparations for the next volume are about to begin. Please, submit papers (in English, French, German, Italian, Netherlands, Spanish, Tamil) concerning Tamil literature and culture, etc. You can find KOLAM under: http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/kolam/frame.html For sunbmitting papers, please use the email-adress included in the KOLAM-website. For the editors, Ulrike Niklas From lengqie at GMX.NET Mon Mar 1 11:28:28 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 12:28:28 +0100 Subject: Personal attacks on the list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047103.23782.1484801388958835530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Samar Abbas you wrote: > 2. If the default setting of these proxies is still in place ie. `GLOBAL', > any Tom, Dick and Harry not just from Lockheed, but from anywhere in the > world can use these proxies and the emails will appear to come from the > same IP address. Just because the emails come through a proxy server does > not mean that they originate at the proxy server. How ? Check your > Netscape Options or Network Preferences and look under proxies. Just fill > in the correct address and port numbers and there you go ! I can't tell > you which port numbers, because that would waste my quota on this list, > which is not devoted to teaching such tricks. The proxy server administrator will have to make the proxy public. Is it the case of Lokheed?? > > 3. If Ganesan wanted to do such a thing, there was no need to sign up all > accounts from hotmail. He could have got free email accounts from > www.rocketmail.com, www.mailcity.com, www.excite.com, www.yahoo.com, > www.netforward.com, www.angelfire.com, www.fortunecity.com or any of the > 1000s of free email providers out there. To have all people signed up at > hotmail would make things just too obvious. That simply proves the ignorance not innocence. > 4. He could also forge his opponents' emails if he wanted using any of the > publicly available forge-your-email servers. That would be more effective > than signing up to many hotmail accounts, and would make a fool of his > opponents in a much stronger way. That will be so apparent as the real person will vindicate himself. He could also use a proxy other than, or > in addition to, the Lockheed one, which would effectively change his IP > address to an arbitrary one. He did not, what that certifies?? > > In other words, since the IP node in question is a Proxy server, There are two nodes they all used, just one is proxy and one is public ISP. All have the same ISP in Houston and all use the same proxy in the second case, right? the > allegations effectively have no meaning. Nothing can be `proven' from our > detectives' results. It certainly does oproove the whole matter to anybody cosidering their unisono attacks. > Moreover, even if these are all one person (something which cannot be > proven) he has only used his freedom of speech gauranteed to him under the > Second Amendment of the USA, and the Internet tradition (which is not a > crime). No one claim it is illegal, it is just disgusting. Sincerely Pertr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Mon Mar 1 13:13:54 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 13:13:54 +0000 Subject: Another obscurity in Belvalkar's Gita edition In-Reply-To: <19990301115133.22702.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047107.23782.14998346907134679685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Harry Spier wrote: > Verse 13.13 of Belvalkar's 1962 edition Bhagavad Gita with Agrawal's > Hindi translation reads "...sarvato'kSiziromukham |" but he then > corrects himself in his list of errata corrections (which is immediately > after chapter 18) and says the correct reading should be > "...sarvatokSiziromukham". > > Since it was originally one way and then he changed it, he seems to have > given some thought to the matter and considered it a matter of at least > some small at least minor importance. > > The edition is consistent in always using avagraha for elided "a" after > "o" or "e" except for this and one other occurance also elided "a" after > "o" which is verse 10.41. Following the editor-in-chief Sukthankar, the editors of the Poona text uniformly omitted (or attempted uniformly to omit) word-internal avagrahas. The errata to the Adiparvan, for example, contain at least four cases where Sukthankar corrects a word by removing such an internal avagraha. There are a few cases which got into print by mistake, but by and large the spelling without avagraha is standard throughout the edition. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Mon Mar 1 05:39:01 1999 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (birgit kellner) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 14:39:01 +0900 Subject: Yet another areal feature in SA languages? Message-ID: <161227047092.23782.17382698450655195064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> jonathan silk wrote: > Are such features as "unfortunately" possible aspects of OIA verb aspect?? Regarding the Japanese -te shimau connection, it is to be noted that the completive aspect of this construction applies throughout *all* tenses and forms, and is not limited to the past. My grammar book cites as an example "hayaku gohan o tabete shimainasai" ("finish eating your meal quickly!" i.e. an imperative form). [This is from the "dictionary of basic Japanese grammar", Seiichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui, Tokyo 1986] The feature of undesirability however is characteristic for the past tense -te shimatta, and even then it is not always present. As an example, the grammar book cites "boku wa osake o nonde shimatta" which could mean, depending on the situation, (a) I finished drinking sake, (b) I drank sake (which I shouldn't have done). As should become obvious from these examples, it is not really meaningful to analyze features such as the (un)desirability of an action/state under the heading of verb *aspect*; they are better treated in the domain of pragmatics, i.e. as situation-dependent attitudes on the part of speakers/hearers. -- birgit kellner department for indian philosophy hiroshima university From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Mon Mar 1 18:00:43 1999 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (birgit kellner) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 99 03:00:43 +0900 Subject: Yet another areal feature in SA languages? Message-ID: <161227047117.23782.17459169481581033021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To the extent that the specific example of Japanese "te shimau/shimatta" constructions bears on more general issues of evaluating verbal aspect/pragmatics, I'll briefly reply to Jonathan Silk's remarks - jonathan silk wrote: > Neither I nor Birgit (nor Michael Witzel, I may add) are native speakers of > Japanese. But according to my wife, who is a native speaker, there > certainly *is* a negative connotation in this expression; my wife says it > may also mean, in addition to "oops... I really should not have drank > this", "unwillingly or without intending to, I drank the sake." Therefore > the English (a) is not correct. With all due respect to your wife, whether or not one single native speaker interprets an *isolated* utterance according to either of two theoretically possible alternatives that are assumed to be valid *within* a given context (dis)proves nothing at all. For the issue is precisely that, when given *within* a certain context/situation, the utterance in question could be understood in different ways. So in order to test this utterance with native speakers, one would have to devise contexts and ask whether or not these are viewed as natural or not (and if not, this is of course not necessarily an indication of grammatical mistakes, but may also be an issue of pragmatic inappropriateness). On the issue of whether or not attitudes on the part of speakers/listeners to actions can/should be analyzed under the heading of verbal aspect: > Perhaps this is so in general, but at least with this particular > construction, aspect seems fine. We need the comments of a Japanese > linguist, I think... But privately I think. Why exactly would aspect seem fine in this case? This puzzles me. Precisely such cases where specific verbal forms are *only* associated with (un)desirability under specific pragmatic circumstances, but *not* in isolation, seem to me utterly inappropriate for an analysis in terms of verbal aspect. Aspect is concerned with whether or not an action/state which is denoted by a certain verbal form is completed, in the state of progression, and so on. In other words, it is related to tense, and independent of speakers' evaluative attitudes to what was done. Also, I am not aware of any contemporary linguistic literature wherein factors such as the way in which a speaker feels or thinks about an action or its result are considered to be a part of verbal aspect. To the extent that (un)desirability of actions/states was at least considered as a feature also of OIA languages, I believe that the issue of how to deal with such factors within linguistic theory is also pertinent to the classification of Indic languages (just to make it clear that we're not just rambling away about Japanese :-)). Regards, -- birgit kellner department for indian philosophy hiroshima university From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Tue Mar 2 14:43:38 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 99 08:43:38 -0600 Subject: Personal attacks on the list Message-ID: <161227047122.23782.13978518845798179021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yesterday, in a discussion of the IVC _proto-Siva_ seal [a la researches des Hiltebeitel et Shulman, fns.1,2], a bright graduate student [from India] asked if there were significance in the seeming commonality in sound between Mahisha and Mahesh. Admittedly, the thought had never occured me [or if it's mentioned by either of those gentlemen, I'd forgotten], but I told her I'd post the query to this list. Are these terms mere _faux amis_ or might this coincidence be further evidence in support of the theory that Durga's victim of choice is a sort of scape-goat substitution for her husband, in a perennial battle twixt god and goddess for pantheonic supremacy? Reactions, anyone? Thanks, Michael Rabe SXU/SAIC, Chicago 1 Hiltebeitel, Alf. "The Indus Valley 'Proto-Siva', Reexamined through Reflections on the Goddess, the Buffalo, and the Symbolism of Va-hanas." Anthropos 73:5-6 (1978):767-97 2. _The Murderous Bride_ section of Shulman, D. D. Tamil Temple Myths: Sacrifice and Divine Marriage in the South Indian Saiva Tradition. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1980. From nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU Tue Mar 2 15:56:01 1999 From: nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 99 09:56:01 -0600 Subject: Advaita-Chandran Message-ID: <161227047125.23782.3856640116476591906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The comments by Ramakrishnan Balasubramannian on Sun 28, Feb 99 were admittedly based on secondary sources and even hearsay regarding the citations by MadhvAcArya. It is interesting to note that the "weird text called Brahmatarka" has also been quoted by the early 17th century author of BrhmavidyAbharaNa on Shankara's B. S. B., one AdvaitAnanda. As for the polemics by Appayya Dikshita, they have been answered by his contemporary VijayIndra tIrtha.It is also worth noting that MadhvAcArya himself tells how the textual traditions had suffered and were suffering interference, interpolation, overwriting, mutation and tampering with: kvacit granthAn prakshipanti kvacidantaritAnapi kuryuh kvaciccam vyatyAsam pramAdAt kvacidanyathA (MahAbhArata tAtparya nirNaya ii 3-7). B. N. K. Sharma in his History of Dvaita school discusses these items thoroughly-Narahari Achar From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 2 23:20:09 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 99 15:20:09 -0800 Subject: Advaita-Chandran Message-ID: <161227047130.23782.23644629090646167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I?m very sorry for the delayed reply. I just haven?t been able to read the digests for quite a while. Balaji Hebbar writes : >The last sentence in the above citation is purely a >personal subjective opinion. (B.N.Hebbar) Even this statement is subjective, as ultimately all statements are :-) >"Apart from this we?ve to remember that Shankara lived at a >time when Buddhism reigned supreme. The nAstikas were tearing >apart theories of the astikas for logically inconsistency. So >apart from the collective view, Advaitam also represents the >best possible logical theory for AtmavAda." >The real folks who defended AtmavAda in the heyday of >Buddhism were the NyAya-VaisheShikas, MImAmsakas and the >Jainas. Prof. C.D.Sharma, the staunch Advaitin like >yourself himself makes a point of this. In fact, he >gives great credit to KumArila Bhatta and goes to the >extent of saying "Shankara merely beat a dead horse." >(vide his Critical survey of Indian Philosophy) I?m not denying the role of KumArilla or UdhayAna in fighting the Bauddhas. But criticizing another theory doesn?t in any prove the strength of ones own theory. And adopting a theistic, atomic and a non conscious Soul theory, the NaiyAyikas are logically on unstable ground. Part of the strength of the Bauddhas actually depended on the weakness of such AstikA doctrines. It was with Shankara that a full fledged logically consistent view of AtmavAda developed, which itself played a significant part in the disappearance of Buddhism in BhArath. >Advaita does not in any way represent the best logical >theory. When making such a statement please explain yourself. >Again, to say Shankara's Advaita is the simplest view >is the understatement of the year. Advaita ? Brahman OR Atman Visistadvaita and Dvaita ? Brahman + Atman + world So which of these equations is simpler? >Even though none of the >VaiShNava >VedAntins had not come into existence, their "realistic" >predecessors, i.e. the NyAya-VaisheShika and MImAmSA were >indeed >"lucky enough" to be the great Buddhist scholars. (BNH) Yes, the fighting would have gone on and on, without any end in sight. Probably the Bauddhas would?ve truimphed! Look at the progress of thought of the schools that you?ve mentioned. The Bauddhas had progressed from materialism to absolutism. But how different is KusumAnjali from Vaishesika and NyAya SutrAs with its bhAshyam and vArtikam? After a millineum and half, UdhayAna is essentially talking the same thing with an Ishvara included, so they can seek refuge in adhrshta or the God's mysterious will, in case of logical inconsistency! Pre-Shankara Astika thought was in most part only devatA knowledge (SAmkhya excluded). Inspite of their no soul theory, the Baudhhas would have been tolerated in they?d accepted an Ishwara. The same reason the SAmkhya was also branded nAstika. To equate God with man is the reason for the ire of the theists against Advaitam. But philosophically the so called nAstikas are on better footing than the theists. >Yes, Shankara is a prachanna MahAyAnika. Anybody, who >believes in two levels of reality like them certainly >befits the nomenclature. The vast majority of the >"Vedic" systems are realistic. Shankara is the odd man >out!!! (BNH) When the shruti says Brahman is beyond the intellect and senses, how else can you develop a logically consistent philosophy? By definition the absolute is beyond the relative. So the only way out is two levels of reality. Ofcourse, this is not true, if one has the intellect to comprehend how Sriman NArAyana creates the universe with a wave of his hand! >Advaita can certainly hold on as LONG as it plays its >usual "highland or lowland" game of two levels of >truth. It is intellectual cowardice. It is like Arjuna >trying to shoot a BhIShma keeping the eunuch ShikhaNDin >in front. Let me as you this: HOW CAN YOU SPEAK OF >ONLY ONE REALITY AND IN THE SAME BREATH SPEAK OF TWO >LEVELS OF TRUTH? I?ll answer this question if you can answer the Buddha?s question : ?The whole universe that we know is a system of relations : we know nothing that is or can be unrelated. How can that which depends on nothing and is related to nothing produce things which are related to one another and depend for their existence upon one another? ? >The Advaita tradition is not all that united as you >present it to be. >There you go again. Logic is fine as long as it is >going your way. The moment AdvaitahAni is pointed out >the dormant MahAyAna two levels of truth comes out, >i.e. relative reality and absolute reality. (BNH) The primary problem lies in the average individual?s inability to understand Advaitam. And if you already have preconceived notions, there?s little scope! >You cannot just usurp the UpaniShads to your >way of thinking. Afterall, you yourself agree that the >UpaniShads do NOT present one consistent system of >thought. If that?s your reasoning, then the same will hold true for other schools of VedAnta also. You think Madhva?s question about the source of the illusion in VijnAnavAda is sharp dialectic. How can I reason with you? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dhanusek at HDS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Mar 3 00:36:32 1999 From: dhanusek at HDS.HARVARD.EDU (Denise Hanusek) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 99 19:36:32 -0500 Subject: references of the origin of veda Message-ID: <161227047132.23782.4612943152360730623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jon, I just wrote the section of my dissertation today dealing with RAmAnuja's treatment of this aspect of the Vedas, so it is still fresh in my mind. He explains the eternality of the Vedas in the VedArthasamgraha (pp. 292-94 in Van Buitenen's translation, pp. 166-68 for the Sanskrit). The idea is also discussed in Shabara's commentary on Jaimini's KarmamImAmsAsUtras. Denise >According to K.Subharhmanyam, in his trans and commentary to BrahmakANDa of >BhartRharis VAkyapadIyam, > >the Veda is described as anAdi, without beginning. > >Are anybody able to give me some references to texts. I am particulary >interested if this notion is found in the writings of Abhinavagupta, but >any referance would do. > >Jon. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Mar 3 04:41:49 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 99 23:41:49 -0500 Subject: gavaamayana-sattra in Gangakhed In-Reply-To: <01J8A0W4NDOK91W4ZJ@pcmail.LeidenUniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227047134.23782.14157385705494106653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the news on the Gavam Ayana... I wish I had time & moeny to see it.. A few days ago NVO asked me by email for my opinion on some Project of Prof. Bodewitz (yours I suppose), I will get the details later... Hope all is well, Yrs MW> ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Wales Professor of Sanskrit Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) Cambridge MA 02138, USA (Harvard Oriental Ser., Opera Minora) phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Wed Mar 3 11:02:51 1999 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 99 06:02:51 -0500 Subject: Yet another areal feature in SA languages? Message-ID: <161227047139.23782.17367264196795742903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I had written >Dahl gives the Japanese ``-te shimaru'' construction and the (modern) Jonathan Silk wrote JS> I think at least in modern Japanese this must be -te shimau. You are right. This ought to teach me to keep the books I quote from in front of me, but I never seem to learn. --- Brigit Kellner wrote BK> Regarding the Japanese -te shimau connection, it is to be noted that BK> the completive aspect of this construction applies throughout *all* BK> tenses and forms, and is not limited to the past. The same is true of Tamil, and a few of the examples of Bybee et al. (I checked only four of the 20+ languages they list, in some cases the grammars are silent on this.) Of course in RV, the aorist stem is used in the moods also, even if sigmatic optatives and imperatives are extremely rare. ----- JS> [Witzel] has also alluded, again silently, to another feature ... JS> namely that it implies a negative result; This clears up a small puzzle. Text of Dahl's questionaire, about announcing the expected arrival of the king would be ``aracar vandu viTTaar.'' The viDu construction is almost obligatory here and I couldn't understand why this was not in the list of correspondences. BK> The feature of undesirability [...] is not always present [in the BK> past]. Now my confusion is back. Will the -te shimau construction be used to translate ``The king has arrived!''? ----- I wanted to study more examples of ``completives'' before I tackled Sanskrit or IE. But perhaps I need to explain in more detail my motivation. JS> I do not think you would have had to have sent the letter within JS> that day, for example, as I understand the distinction in Vedic verb JS> forms to suggest. The problem is that Vedic aorist is not limited to events of the same day. In fact, even in Paninean grammar, there are exceptions. Firstly, the aorist is the ``past of the most recent X'', with day being just the default value [3.3.135]. But this is minor quibble. There are living languages which are reported to do similar things. Secondly, Panini says ``lu"n; anadyatane la"n.'' According to Katyayana, anadyatana is a bahuvriihi; so one can only say ``adya hyo 'bhukSmahi.'' (cf RV 8.99.1, 8.66.1). [But Patanjali and latter authorities seem to contradict this by identifying na+adyatane with anadyatane and the complement of bhuutamatre.] Thirdly, according Patanjali, the aorist can be used when the speaker does not have the intention (vivakSA) of indicating the time. This comes close to the ``aorist of statement'' (Konstatierung in Hoffman). The question is if these are enough. Jan Gonda (The aspectual functions of the Rgvedic present and aorist) maintained that the answer is no. He gives a long list of aorists that occur with imperfects. He also gives an example of imperfect used for event of the same day. The latter does not really matter: Remoteness distinctions, in some languages that have them, is not usually applied in narrative contexts. Or it might be relative to the point of time in the narrative. Also, even closely related dialects may differ on whether the distinctions are strict and obligatory or based on the subjective conception of the speaker. But the first one is less easily disposed off. What struck me is that the Tamil -viDu construction has many of the properties that Gonda notes in the RV aorist. Also, the simple past need not indicate completion: To quote Annamalai's example ``DaakTarukku paNam koDutten. aanaal avar vaangik koLLavillai.'' `I offered the doctor the money. But he did not take it.' [Of course, due to the presence of a progressive such examples are rare.] But it would be gross distortion to say simple past :-viDu is the same as imperfective : perfective. --------- MW> * imperfective aspect ( expressed by present stem, e.g. imperfect: MW> a-ga-ccha-t; type of verbs: durative) and MW> * perfective aspect (expressed by aorist stem, a-gan-(t), a-gam-a-t MW> etc., not just the sigmatic aorist : a-gaM-s-/ agam-iS-) MW> ... (e.g., K.Hoffmann, Der Injunktiv im Veda, Wiesbaden 1969). MW> Both have diff. meanings, obviously, and should be translated (Vedic MW> exx.) as: "he came :: he has come just now." Panini knows that. Remoteness distinctions have nothing to do with aspect. In languages that have both, remoteness distinction may be limited to the perfective [Bybee, p.101] or interact in possibly complicated ways. I have not heard of an example in which remote past = imperfective and recent past = perfective. I don't think that Hoffmann says that the RV imperfect is an imperfective. He suggests a stage between PIE and Vedic in which the imperfect is an imperfective limited to remote past and narration while aorist is perfective in those context and is also used for recent past and statements (without regard to aspect?). Without a living example, this sounds too ad-hoc. There is also a reason why I don't want to assume a priori that the root and sigmatic forms were used suppletively from the beginning: There is evidence to support the view that the distinction between the imperfect and aorist is fuzzy in RV [Elizerenkova; Gonda `concurs' with this while asserting an aspectual distinction!], and this has been arrtibuted [Watkins?] to an original unmarked status of root forms. I don't think that it is accidental that classifying root forms of RV sometimes gets quite complicated. MW> What about Russian (found in every grammar), or even the English MW> forms in -ing ( I was sitting :: I sat)??? (and colloquial N.W. German). English -ing is a progressive. In example 1 above, we can't say `I was giving the doctor the money, but he wouldn't take it.' Slavic distinction in curious. It denotes attainment of a limit, but like perfectives of other languages, it is the usual form in narration. To put it a bit differently, Slavic perfective is like the typical perfectives in narrative contexts, but different in non-narrative contexts [see Dahl, pp. 84--89, and Bybee et al. pp. 87--95]. But completives are not the usual form in narration, and behave differently from perfectives in all contexts. In fact it is possible to a language to have a completive in addition to a perfective. MW> I think one of our Amer. linguistic colleagues (who?) has written MW> about this soem 5 years ago , as found in medieval Sanskrit MW> (Narrative literature: periphrastic constructions) I will appreciate ii if any one can give further pointers to this. -Nath From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Wed Mar 3 11:05:38 1999 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 99 06:05:38 -0500 Subject: Parvata in VP 2.486-"grandhamAtrE vyvasthitaH" Message-ID: <161227047141.23782.17201313152729781753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >mAM mOdakais[mA+udakaiH] tADaya. etc. This is a bum rap. This is what really happened. The king, unlike the queen, was actually well versed in Paninean Sanskrit. He intended to point out, in a jovial way, that the queen should have said ``maa modakena tiitaDaH.'' However the joke went over the heads of the queen and many of the courtiers who spoke the Pali influenced Sanskrit of Buddhists and their fellow travelers. Then the king decided to learn this new-fangled Sanskrit so that he could converse with them on their terms (he was quite pragmatic) and studied Kaatantra. This explains how he could do this in six months. He had to learn just the new bits. This story got distorted over time, especially among those who didn't understand that the queen's Sanskrit was faulty. But the true story was preserved in the Potiyil tradition --- the king's original Sanskrit teacher came from there --- and has come down (karNaparampara) to some pandits of the area. In fact I learned the true story from one of them. -Nath From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Wed Mar 3 10:47:49 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 99 10:47:49 +0000 Subject: Louis de La Vallee Poussin Message-ID: <161227047137.23782.1505773262522789867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have received the following request from Nicolas de la Vallee Poussin, a descendant of Louis, for information about his distingished ancestor. If any subscriber to Indology can help him, they can contact him direct by email at nlvp at yahoo.com. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html > Louis de La Vallee Poussin, an ancestor of mine, was very well known > in the field of Sanskrit translations, as well as Oriental Buddhism > and a variety of other related subjects. > > I am having a lot of trouble finding his biography or resume. All I > have is a list of publications, and even that is incomplete. > > Would you know where I might go to find more information on him - not > just his achievements in his fields of research, but also where he > was, whom he taught, who he was taught by, where he lived, marriages, > children etc etc so that I can tie it back into the family tree? > > Many thanks, > > Nicolas From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 3 18:32:00 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 99 13:32:00 -0500 Subject: Louis de La Vallee Poussin In-Reply-To: <199903031656.BAA00256@hongo.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227047152.23782.13740117320388834181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >You can get some information from following book. > >Abhidharmakosabhasyam / by Louis de La Vallee Poussin ; English transl >ation by Leo M. Pruden. -- (BA07178310) >Berkeley, Calif. : Asian Humanities Press, 1988-1990 >4 v. ; 23 cm -- set - v. 4 > >esp., A brief Biography of Louis de La Vallee Poussin in Vol.1, pp.xv-xix. > This is of course nothing more than an English translation of the remembrance published by M. Lalou and J. Przyluski. I don't have the original publication details at hand, but everything should probably be found in the volume of the _Bibliographie Bouddhique_ in which the complete bibliography of LVP is found (again, my copy is not by me now, but if necessary I can get the reference if someone else does not supply it sooner). In fact, it may be there that the remembrance was published... Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520 tel. 203-432-0828 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 961 bytes Desc: not available URL: From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 3 18:46:28 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 99 13:46:28 -0500 Subject: Ref. check verse 6.41 Bhagavad Gita Message-ID: <161227047154.23782.11358754971041908730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Belvalkar (1962) in this verse reads "...puNyakRtAM lokAn" and notes "puNyakRtAMllokAn" as a variant (M in this case represents chandrabindu). Van Buitenen reads "...puNyakRtaMl lokAn". Could someone tell me what the B.O.R.I. critical edition reads? Thank you Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lengqie at GMX.NET Wed Mar 3 13:56:23 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 99 14:56:23 +0100 Subject: Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa and MaNimEkalai Message-ID: <161227047144.23782.9776785149604517399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Coleagues I previously believed that Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa is a South Indian text. K. P. Jayaswal in his rendition of the historical part (part III of Trivandrum edition - pp. 579-656) of the Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa called "An imperial History of India in a Sanskrit text with a special commentary on later Gupta period" published in 1934, claims on page 3 of the introduction that Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa was written in Bengal. K. P. Jayaswal also says that Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa seems to have been written from one pen and it did not grow from generation to generation - and as it discusses the pAla period of 750A.D. it is propably much older and not related to la.NkAvatAra (not to the la.NkAvatAra's early layers at least) neither to South India as I hoped. So in that case - is the MaNimEkalai the only surviving Buddhist scripture written in South India when the Gupta's rulled in North or earlier? Are there any ancient manuscripts or engravings related to MaNimEkalai or how is its age prooved? I heard that Danielou's translation of MaNimEkalai is not very accurate, if that is true - is there any better English translation? It may be intersting to Mr. Sarma that AMMK also mentions /SrI Parvata. It says in verse 636 according to K. P. Jayaswal: 633 On the peaks of the Vindhyas and in the Lava.Na ocean god kArtikeya will be the giver of the boons 634 And so in the country of /SrI Parvata, in the valley of the Vindhya and its high land. Is that related to Andhra? than the AMMK also mentions the South Seas, it says: verses 636-640 "Everywhere the dvIpas too, in the Kali.Ngadreshu, [kArtikeya will be worshipped]. The triguNyas [will be] in Mlechchha countries all around. In the bays of the sea, on their coasts. there will be numerous kings; the kAma-rUpa-kalA in the valleys of HimAdri. Many kings are stated to have been between meetings of the seas (udra-sandhishu). Many gaNa chiefs of the Mlechchhas, worshippers of the Buddha: - Indra and Suchandra - Mahendra inhibitants amongst the Mlechchhas will be kings." Kali.Ngadreshu, cf. udrasandhishu probably means Java as Kali.Nga dynasty ruled there in this seventh century. The text than suggest that Indra and Suchandra-Mahendra were Mlechchsas. So it seems that the Indian name for Sumatra and Java in seventh century was KaliNgodreshu. Am I right? Does Manimekhalai talks about these places too? Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Mar 3 20:46:46 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 99 15:46:46 -0500 Subject: Yet another areal/GENERALITIES Message-ID: <161227047161.23782.16748477786817441523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Now that all grammatical categories have been nicely muddled up in the discussion of a lot of Japanese and some Sanskrit, it is perhaps better to return to this aspect (sorry, side) of the question. Since details are too numerous, I dividide this into two messages. In colloquial parlance, we tend to confuse tenses with aspects, and aspect with 'type of action' of verbs (Aktionsart). These are *three* different things. Sorry, I was too brief last time; I assumed more general understanding of the verb system. In detail: Many languages have an ASPECT system, not (our English type) TENSES, such as present, past, future, perfect etc. Those which do *not* have a *grammaticalized* aspect system (such as English, Hindi, modern Japanese) have tenses (but they *can* have Aktionsarten -- I don't think there is a general Engl. expression; see further below) . Other, e.g., 'Aspect' languages, do not need tenses, since they can make the same distinctions by using aspect or Aktionsart functions and forms. Aspect languages usually distinguish the GRAMMATICAL CATEGORIES imperfective ('not completed' action) and perfective ('completed' action). Obviously, some verbs primarily fit only one aspect: you can sit, eat, be 'forever' (durative action --> imperfective aspect ), but you cannot arrive 'forever' (terminative action --> perfective aspect ); in Vedic, we also have inchoative action > perfective aspect ('I left', which again you cannot do 'forever'). And there are other, more specialized cases ('to flash') In Vedic these two CATEGORIES still are fairly well distinct: *imperfective aspect = expressed by the GRAMMATICAL FORM present stem, *perfective aspect = aorist stem (cf. below, DETAILS) Many if not most Vedic verbs (see below) follow either category, as per their meaning (sit :: arrive/leave), by using the bare ROOT as present :: aorist (thus, root present, Panini's no. 2) or root aorist. The clearest case is of course : as-ti (imperfective: 'he exists', theoretically, forever) :: a-bhU-t 'he became' (in Vedic; not 'he was!', as mostly found in class.Skt.); -- cf. the English echo with: is :: be, been). Here, Skt. (and similarly Latin, Germanic) even resorts to two different verbs to make the distinction, and both forms are directly from the root. -- Or cf. the cases I used last time a- ga-ccha-t :: a-gan(t). (< IE *e-gwm-sk'e-t :: *e-gwem-t). The problem arises when you want to use these verbs in the other aspect. Thus, agan(t) 'he made a step, went forth' :: a-ga-ccha-t 'continued to go forth, went '. Note that in this case the present stem (with past tense agacchat) is specially characterized by the Indo-European inchoative -sk'e- > Skt. -ccha- (yacchati, icchati, prchati < *prk'-sk'eti > posco, forschen etc.) You need -ccha- to express continuing action. gam-a-ti is not a Vedic Present (but subjunctive aorist "he will go", a small difference!) In the same way, you need a special suffix (s-Aor. for example) in verbs which fall into the action types (Aktionsart) such as durative: stau-ti 'he praises' ('forever') :: a-stau-S-It 'he finished praising (just now)' <> The IE aspect system is clear if one compares other IE languages (see, e.g. gam : ga-cch, in Skt., Avestan, Greek, Armenian, Latin, etc., see the recent compendium : H. Rix (et. al.), Lexikon der indogermanischen Verben. Die Wurzeln und ihre Primaerstammbildungen. Wiesbaden 1998. 600 pp. of examples leave no doubt about this basic distinction. That not all verbs in Vedic follow the IE root aor . versus specially designated pres. stem, or, conversely, root present :: specially designated aorist distinction clearly any more, is no great wonder: quite a time span separates IE from Vedic. As in all living languages, we see development: in the case of gam, we have some 5 diff. aorist formations; (for details see K.Hoffmann, J. Narten, T. Goto, C. Werba etc.); similarly, we have different present stems for about 80 verbs, often with a difference in MEANING, for example bibharti 'bring' :: bharati 'carry'! Here we can even speculate on the 'meaning' (gramm. function) of the reduplication: continue to carry, and you will bring something. The continuants / remnants of this aspect division (Pres. :: Aor. stems) are clear enough in the various IE languages in order to support an original PIE aspect division. It is quite another question as to what was going on in pre-PIE, or 'early' IE. Our reconstructed IE is not of one level, -- just as you have Rgvedic (with injunctives) and Upanisadic (no new living injunctives, new 'double' subjunctives) and Classical/Epic (no subjunctives, injunctives used), within a time span of c. 1000 years. A reconstruction of the "pre-Vedic" based on such items would yield a confusing system. I hope this clarifies the terms & limits of the present discussion. MW ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Wales Professor of Sanskrit Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) Cambridge MA 02138, USA (Harvard Oriental Ser., Opera Minora) phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Mar 3 21:54:59 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 99 16:54:59 -0500 Subject: Yet another areal/DETAILS In-Reply-To: <001a01be6565$cb674e80$2c70fe8c@raol.lucent.com> Message-ID: <161227047163.23782.5617962988700313538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyanath Rao wrote : .... DETAILS, HOWEVER, MOSTLY ABOUT SKT: >BK> Regarding the Japanese -te shimau connection, it is to be noted that >BK> the completive aspect of this construction applies throughout *all* >BK> tenses and forms, and is not limited to the past. -te shimau is of course indicating action type (to finish s.th.), which you can do now, yesterday or tomorrow. It is not grammaticalized as aspect. We have only tabe-ru 'to eat, he eats', tabe-ta "he has eaten, ate", etc. ; and we must use periphrastic constructions to express terminative action, such as tabe-te shimatta / tabecchatta (how to write colloquial Jpn.?) :: tabe-te iru /tabeteru "he is eating", just as in English, Hindi etc.; Old Jpn. is another question. > Of course in RV, the aorist stem is used >in the moods also, even if sigmatic optatives and imperatives are >extremely rare. Well, sigmatic maybe; this is just *one* of a handful of Aor. formations; but there are subj., opt., imper. (and injunctives) of the Aor. (and Perfect). All listed, according to contemporary understanding in MacDonell, Vedic Grammar, now some 90 years old. ---------- >JS> [Witzel] has also alluded, again silently, to another feature ... >JS> namely that it implies a negative result; >BK> The feature of undesirability [...] is not always present [in the >BK> past]. It is the problem when certain aspects (sorry: feelings, speaker's ad hoc interpretations) get in the way here. Of course, it is 'negative, undesirable', if you say "I have (just) done this or that" (wrongly), with Jpn. (tabe)-cchatta. Such incidental 'meanings' (sub-functions) express only a *secondary* function of terminative action, and have to be distinguished from the *main* function, which can never be found out by ad hoc examples, also not by native speakers, but only by studying a large set of cases and by comparing them IN CONTEXT (as done in Hoffmann's Injunktiv). >Now my confusion is back. Will the -te shimau construction be used to >translate ``The king has arrived!''? My gramm. feeling says, no: (*ki-te shimashita/ shimatta, kicchatta, or probably worse, *tsuite shimatta, tsuicchatta ???) -- But I am not a native speaker. -- ki-ta, ki-mashita, tsuki-mashita, tsui-ta would be enough (since 'to arrive, come' already is terminative ...) We have to check modern Jpn. grammar books. >----- >Jan Gonda (The aspectual functions of the Rgvedic present and aorist) ... >gives a long list of aorists that occur with imperfects. (See immediately below) > Remoteness distinctions, in some languages that >have them, is not usually applied in narrative contexts. The opens another can of worms. In such cases we can use the Vedic injunctive, or "neutral" forms such as the Jpn. 'present' (taberu), or the Turkish 'aorist' - since, in certain languages, WITHIN a tale, it is not necessary to indicate each time that the happenings are remote, long ago, past... Cf. the 'historical present' or Skt. narrative literature where tales can begin with asti "(Once upon a time) there was ... < from older: asti sma... or (the even IE type) AsIt (rAjA...) ... > even closely related >dialects may differ on whether the distinctions are strict and >obligatory or based on the subjective conception of the speaker. Or the poet! -- That is what makes RV interpretation difficult (and what threw Gonda off the track). Of course, you can state the same thing (Indra slew the dragon) in various ways, -- whether you tell your listeners a fact (a-han, impf.), or you just mention it (han, injunctive) since they know it anyhow, or whether you stress that he has killed him off (jaghAna, perf.), or theoretically, he has just now killed him again, at the New Year's ritual, or in some god's/poet's contemporary narration (aor.). In Vedic prose the aspectual distinctions are much easier to see, as tales are told straightforwardly. And here we get a clear distinction between "the Rsi came (quite some time ago)" or "he came (just now)." Note, again, that remoteness/nearness is a Vedic development. (And it probably changes over time, another can of worms, unstudied, see my preliminary notes in Tracing Vedic Dialects, in : Les dialectes indiennes, ed. C. Caillat Paris 1989) >--------- > >MW> * imperfective aspect ( expressed by present stem, e.g. imperfect: >MW> a-ga-ccha-t; type of verbs: durative) and >MW> * perfective aspect (expressed by aorist stem, a-gan-(t), ... >MW> should be translated (Vedic >MW> exx.) as: "he came :: he has come just now." Panini knows that. > >Remoteness distinctions have nothing to do with aspect. See above. The 'meaning'/function ('just now') of the Vedic Aor. is a special development of Vedic on its way away from Indo-European. I speak about Vedic, not IE. >In languages >that have both, remoteness distinction may be limited to the perfective >.... I have not heard >of an example in which remote past = imperfective and recent past = >perfective. This must be a misunderstading of terminology. The gramm. 'meaning'/function remote past is espressed by the Vedic past 'tense' (= imperfect 'tense') which is part of the present stem which signifies imperfective aspect (durative action). This kind of terminology is definitely confusing. We have to distinguish grammatical function ('remote past', 'recent past') from grammatical forms ("tenses", verb stems), the underlying meaning of verbs (Aktionsarten such as durative, terminative,fientive ) and their grammaticalization as aspects (pres./aor. stems). In short lexical meaning : grammatical function : grammatical form. Otherwise we get the mess we have seen so far. But V. Rao's query above (remote past = imperf. ***stem*** (= present stem, past tense) is exactly what has happened in the Vedic past tenses : Past or Imperfect (from present stem = imperfect. stem) :: Aorist (= perfective stem); Vedic prose has zillions of cases (we would have to look some of them up; I am on sabb. leave and writing from home and from memory) Such reading will show exactly what K. Hoffman says and what I translated above. > a stage between PIE and Vedic in which the >imperfect is an imperfective limited to remote past and narration while >aorist is perfective in those context and is also used for recent past >and statements (without regard to aspect?). Without a living example, >this sounds too ad-hoc. Living examples in Vedic prose (Maitrayani, Katha, Taittiriya Samhita etc.) >There is also a reason why I don't want to assume a priori that the root >and sigmatic forms were used suppletively from the beginning: >... the distinction between the imperfect >and aorist is fuzzy in RV [Elizerenkova) For IE, see above; then: Well, we know that RV poetry is not a straightforward "report" of what Indra etc. did... Better to check prose texts ... Or make a detailed interpretation of hymns which come close to it, such as the Pururavas hymn (RV 10.95, in the discussion by K. Hoffmann, Der Injuktiv; don't use W. O'Flaherty's transl!) In such hymns you can see the distinction, though I now see, in 10.95 mostly impf., perf., and injunctive. (Impf./Past.: of past experiences, AsIH , AzRNoH, anu Ayam, Asata, avardhayan, atrasan etc. :: Aor. prAkramiSam, of statement?; -- especially nice, the distinction, based on meaning of verbs in the diff. pres./aor. injunctives used: mA mRthAs, mA pra paptas, mA kSan!) and this has been attributed >[Watkins?] to an original unmarked status of root forms. I don't think >that it is accidental that classifying root forms of RV sometimes gets >quite complicated. see above: --The IE unmarked root = action type, is classified as pres./aor. stem. See Rix's vol. Then classification becomes easier. >MW> What about ... even the English >MW> forms in -ing ( I was sitting :: I sat)??? (and colloquial N.W. German). >>English -ing is a progressive. well 'progressive' is the type of action that is expressed by imperf. aspect (if grammaticalized). See above. -ing is an Aktionsart, not *grammaticalized* aspect. I was giving examples in the context of a hypothetical peculiarity of the INDIAN LINGUISTC AREA, where we find a lot of Aktionsarten that underly the grammatical function "aspect". The past limited discussion (4 people?) has shown, that no one is very clear what he/she means by aspect, terminative, tense, (original) grammatical system and periphrastic forms, etc. >MW> I think one of our Amer. linguistic colleagues (who?) ...in medieval >Sanskrit >MW> (Narrative literature: periphrastic constructions) I now seem to remember it was Craig Melchert, but where did he publish his lecture? MW ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Wales Professor of Sanskrit Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) Cambridge MA 02138, USA (Harvard Oriental Ser., Opera Minora) phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From lengqie at GMX.NET Wed Mar 3 18:28:45 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 99 19:28:45 +0100 Subject: Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa and MaNimEkalai Message-ID: <161227047149.23782.11576111552525113404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> correction: K. P. Jayaswal also says that Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa seems to have been written from one pen and it did not grow from generation to generation - and as it discusses the pAla period of 750A.D. it is propably much older and not related to la.NkAvatAra (not to the la.NkAvatAra's early layers at least) neither to South India as I hoped. I made a typo: I meant that Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa is of course much younger (not older) than the la.NkAvatAra's early layers as early version of la.NkAvatAra has been translated already in the early 5th cent. to Chinese. Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From Eddy.Moerloose at RUG.AC.BE Wed Mar 3 19:43:35 1999 From: Eddy.Moerloose at RUG.AC.BE (Eddy Moerloose) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 99 20:43:35 +0100 Subject: Louis de La Vallee Poussin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047156.23782.1390102088083335325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear collegue The complete bibliograpphy of Louis de la Vallee Poussin was published by Marcelle Lalou in: 'Bibliographie bouddhique, fasc. annexe XXIIIbis, Paris, Adrien Maisonneuve, 1955'. In the introduction Mrs. Lalou refers to Lamotte's biography of Louis de la Vallee Poussin in: 'Revue du Cercle des Alumni de la Fondation Universitaire [Bruxelles], ext. du tome IV, no. 3, f?v. 1933, 17 p'. Eddy Moerloose >I have received the following request from Nicolas de la Vallee Poussin, a >descendant of Louis, for information about his distingished ancestor. If >any subscriber to Indology can help him, they can contact him direct by >email at nlvp at yahoo.com. > >John Smith > >-- >Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk >Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) >Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 >Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html > >> Louis de La Vallee Poussin, an ancestor of mine, was very well known >> in the field of Sanskrit translations, as well as Oriental Buddhism >> and a variety of other related subjects. >> >> I am having a lot of trouble finding his biography or resume. All I >> have is a list of publications, and even that is incomplete. >> >> Would you know where I might go to find more information on him - not >> just his achievements in his fields of research, but also where he >> was, whom he taught, who he was taught by, where he lived, marriages, >> children etc etc so that I can tie it back into the family tree? >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Nicolas From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Mar 4 05:29:11 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 00:29:11 -0500 Subject: Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa and MaNimEkalai Message-ID: <161227047165.23782.17359399731486536550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 3/3/99 8:03:54 AM Central Standard Time, lengqie at GMX.NET writes: > I previously believed that Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa is a South Indian > text. > > K. P. Jayaswal in his rendition of the historical part (part III of > Trivandrum edition - pp. 579-656) of the Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa > called "An imperial History of India in a Sanskrit text with a special > commentary on later Gupta period" published in 1934, claims on page > 3 of the introduction that Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa was written in > Bengal. Apparently, at one place, the author refers to vidiza (modern Bhelsa, M.P.) as being situated between west and north (pazcimottarayomadhyam). This is taken by scholars to imply that the place of authorship was probably dhAnyakaTaka. You may want to compare this against the suggestion of Bengal and see which is more likely. > Are there any ancient manuscripts or engravings related to > MaNimEkalai or how is its age prooved? May be Dr. A. Veluppillai at Uppasala can discuss this more. > I heard that Danielou's translation of MaNimEkalai is not very > accurate, if that is true - is there any better English translation? See my posting "Re: Re Potala(ka), etc" on 2/27/99 for the reference. > It may be intersting to Mr. Sarma that AMMK also mentions /SrI > Parvata. ... > Is that related to Andhra? Yes. It has been discussed by other scholars such as Lal Mani Joshi. Please note even here it is "zrIparvata" and not just "parvata". In an earlier posting Petr Mares mentioned that vajrabodhi visited Lanka before he visited Ceylon. In this connection, has Petr explored why the name of the river which originates from the Potiyil (malaya) mountain of south India is also the name for the island of Ceylon, tAmraparNi? maNimEkalai does mention cAvakam (Java). According to Lal Mani Joshi the sarvatathAgatAdhiSThAna-vyUha, a semi-tantric Buddhist text found in Gilgit and belonging to the 5th or 6th century A.D. states that the Lord delivered this text at Potalaka parvata. Does anybody know more about this text and what exactly it says regarding the location of Potalaka? How old is the manuscript? Regards S. Palaniappan From lh57061 at HONGO.ECC.U-TOKYO.AC.JP Wed Mar 3 16:56:42 1999 From: lh57061 at HONGO.ECC.U-TOKYO.AC.JP (Jae-sung Kim (Jung Won)) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 01:56:42 +0900 Subject: Louis de La Vallee Poussin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047146.23782.10259230954590866897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You can get some information from following book. Abhidharmakosabhasyam / by Louis de La Vallee Poussin ; English transl ation by Leo M. Pruden. -- (BA07178310) Berkeley, Calif. : Asian Humanities Press, 1988-1990 4 v. ; 23 cm -- set - v. 4 esp., A brief Biography of Louis de La Vallee Poussin in Vol.1, pp.xv-xix. > > Louis de La Vallee Poussin, an ancestor of mine, was very well known > > in the field of Sanskrit translations, as well as Oriental Buddhism > > and a variety of other related subjects. > > > > I am having a lot of trouble finding his biography or resume. All I > > have is a list of publications, and even that is incomplete. > > > > Would you know where I might go to find more information on him - not > > just his achievements in his fields of research, but also where he > > was, whom he taught, who he was taught by, where he lived, marriages, > > children etc etc so that I can tie it back into the family tree? > > > > Many thanks, > > > > Nicolas Jung Won e-mail : jungwon at l.u-tokyo.ac.jp From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 4 12:54:39 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 04:54:39 -0800 Subject: Parvata and zrI-parvata Message-ID: <161227047179.23782.10698471824224331570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a question asking whether parvata in VP 2.486 and sriparvata in Manjusrimulakalpa are one and the same. But, essentially, they are not the same though there may be few relations. Parvata and Sriparvata are physically very different entities. Best regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU Thu Mar 4 11:12:08 1999 From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 06:12:08 -0500 Subject: Ref. check verse 6.41 Bhagavad Gita Message-ID: <161227047176.23782.5807200209696181960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry Spier wrote: > Belvalkar (1962) in this verse reads "...puNyakRtAM lokAn" > and notes "puNyakRtAMllokAn" as a variant (M in this case represents > chandrabindu). > > Van Buitenen reads "...puNyakRtaMl lokAn". > > Could someone tell me what the B.O.R.I. critical edition reads? > My 1968 reprint of the B.O.R.I. gives "puNyakRtAMllokAn" as a variant (M in this case represents chandrabindu) The variation "...puNyakRtAM lokAn" is noted as a variant and there is another variation "puNyatamAMllokAn" (M in this case represents chandrabindu) also noted. The Van Buitenen is consistent as usual with B.O.R.I., except for the technical break between the two l's. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU Thu Mar 4 14:28:52 1999 From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt Thorp) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 08:28:52 -0600 Subject: Ref. check verse 6.41 Bhagavad Gita In-Reply-To: <19990303184629.16867.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047184.23782.13070446533157143701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would somebody please send Harry Spier a photocopy of the relevant pages of the BORI edition? I would, but I come from a very poor university with a low photocopy budget. At 01:46 PM 3/3/99 EST, you wrote: >Belvalkar (1962) in this verse reads "...puNyakRtAM lokAn" >and notes "puNyakRtAMllokAn" as a variant (M in this case represents >chandrabindu). > >Van Buitenen reads "...puNyakRtaMl lokAn". > >Could someone tell me what the B.O.R.I. critical edition reads? > > >Thank you > > >Harry Spier > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > Burt Thorp English Department University of North Dakota Grand Forks ND 58202-7209 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 4 09:33:38 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 09:33:38 +0000 Subject: TAXILA ACADEMY (fwd) Message-ID: <161227047167.23782.7036568856262873661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:28:48 -0600 (CST) From: Aditya Dev Sood Subject: TAXILA ACADEMY Dear colleagues, This message concerns Taxila Academy, a new summer program in Indian Studies set in Bangalore, India. As you may be aware, we are now accepting applications from college students, young professionals and other adults. We have also instituted some scholarships for students from Australia, South East Asia, Africa, Europe and South America (and Mexico). We would be grateful if you could help us raise awareness about the program by posting information about the program on your office door or in similar institutional environments where prospective students might have access to it. If you would be interested in receiving information about the program please do email us at admissions at taxila-academy.com The remainder of this email provides a brief description of the program. We also invite you to visit our newly updated website at www.taxila-academy.com Thank you very much for your assistance. Please do contact should you have other questions, concerns or suggestions. Aditya Dev Sood a-sood at uchicago.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- T A X I L A A C A D E M Y 1 9 9 9 Summer Studies in India ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THE PROGRAM Taxila Academy is designed for college students interested in learning about India. The program accommodates up to 30 students from around the world. In 1999, Taxila Academy runs for about 6 weeks, from the 18th of June to the 26th of July. Students at Taxila Academy select two courses each, from a total of six. These two courses correspond to about 6 credits of junior or senior college level work. Coursework is supplemented with special lectures, workshops, movie screenings, and excursions during weekends. Classroom and field experiences complement one another to enable focussed discussions on a representative set of topics concerning India. Courses have been designed to appeal to a range of students who might be interested in India from socio-economic, political, philosophical, or cultural perspectives. CURRICULUM: COURSES AND INSTRUCTORS 1. Traditions of Indian Dance and Music (Madhu M. Natraj) 2. Modern Indian Literatures in Translation (Manu Chakravarthy) 3. 20th Century India: Society and Politics (Sudha Sitaraman) 4. Indian Intellectual Traditions (Ananya Vajpeyi) 5. Intensive Hindi: Speaking, Reading, Writing (Staff) 6. South Asian Perspectives on the Environment (S. Chella Rajan) EXCURSIONS AND FIELD TRIPS 1. Nrityagram 2. Mysore 3. Sravana Belgola - Halebid - Belur 4. Hampi and Badami 5. Retreat in Goa SPECIAL LECTURES AND WORKSHOPS 1. Indian Feminist Theory and Activism 2. Carnatic Music Recital 3. Hindustani Music Recital 4. Sanskrit Theories of Aesthetics 5. India's Nuclearization Policy: A Debate 6. Effects of India's Economic Reforms 7. Indian Writing in English 8. Caste, Kinship and Social Hierarchy 9. Indo-Islamic Architecture and Design 10.Traditions of Craft Production PROGRAM HISTORY Taxila Academy was established in 1995 by New Strategies in Education, an independent initiative based in India, the UK, and the US. The summer program was first held in 1996, when students from the United States, Canada and India collected in Bangalore for an intensive six-week introduction to salient features of Indian history, culture and society. Former students of Taxila Academy attended premier colleges and universities around the world, and have continued to pursue their interests in India after their experiences on the program. Unlike other study-abroad programs in India run by American universities, students at Taxila Academy have the opportunity to study with Indian academics, intellectuals and social workers. Our faculty has trained in India and in other parts of the world, and so provides our students special access to South Asia's rich intellectual resources. APPLICATION PROCEDURES Applications are accepted from February 1 through May 1, 1999, on a rolling basis. The 1999 Course Guide and Application Forms may be downloaded from our home page or requested by mail, email or telephone. Completed applications should be mailed to our Chicago offices: TAXILA ACADEMY 4933 N. Wolcott #3A Chicago IL 60640 phonefax:(773) 769-1933 admissions at taxila-academy.com www.taxila-academy.com From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Thu Mar 4 09:44:27 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 09:44:27 +0000 Subject: Ref. check verse 6.41 Bhagavad Gita In-Reply-To: <19990303184629.16867.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047170.23782.5461476790199831608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Harry Spier wrote: > Belvalkar (1962) in this verse reads "...puNyakRtAM lokAn" > and notes "puNyakRtAMllokAn" as a variant (M in this case represents > chandrabindu). > > Van Buitenen reads "...puNyakRtaMl lokAn". > > Could someone tell me what the B.O.R.I. critical edition reads? The BORI ed. has puNyakRtAMl lokAn. But this is a fascinating little textual mystery, as it happens. Of the 10 occurrences of the phrase in the text of the MBh, five are spelt with candrabindu + l, five with anusvara. There are also 8 occurrences of sukRtAMl lokAn (and none of the equivalent form using anusvara). What is going on here? An optional sandhi for final -n before initial l- is simply to write the -n as an anusvara. In this single case, the sandhis of final -n and final -m are thus identical. It seems fairly clear that the phrases in question are, in pre-sandhi form, sukRtAm lokAn and puNyakRtAm lokAn "the worlds of the doers of what is good" (i.e. "the heavenly realms"). The alternative interpretation (su/puNya-kRtAn lokAn) simply makes no sense: "the well/virtuously made worlds". Whether the confusion is scribal, editorial, or a mixture of both I am unsure, but at some stage the final anusvara has come to be taken as representing -n not -m, and the spelling adjusted accordingly. If the phrases were used in any other case than the accusative plural this would presumably not have happened (or would the scribes/editors have emended *puNyakRtAM lokAH to *puNyakRtA lokAH?). John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Thu Mar 4 09:46:32 1999 From: Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 10:46:32 +0100 Subject: Ref. check verse 6.41 Bhagavad Gita In-Reply-To: <19990303184629.16867.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047173.23782.7195310684117601113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The critical edition by S. K. Bevalkar (Poona: BORI 1945) reads ["Ml" in this cases represents l + chandrabindu]: [...] puNyakRtAMl lokAn [...] Variant readings: puNyakRtAM lokAn ["ZaradA version"; some mss of the "DevanAgarI Composite Version"; two mss of the "Grantha Version"; RAmAnuja?s, ZaNkara?s and Dhanapati?s commentaries] ; puNyatamAMl lokAn [ms of the "KazmIrI Version"]. From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Thu Mar 4 03:18:56 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 11:18:56 +0800 Subject: Query about Java-Was ManjuSri In-Reply-To: <199903031355.OAA27976@vega.inec.cz> Message-ID: <161227047158.23782.2424933259694610936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:56 PM 3/3/99 +0100, you wrote: > >than the AMMK also mentions the South Seas, it says: > >verses 636-640 >"Everywhere the dvIpas too, in the Kali.Ngadreshu, [kArtikeya will be >worshipped]. The triguNyas [will be] in Mlechchha countries all >around. In the bays of the sea, on their coasts. there will be numerous >kings; the kAma-rUpa-kalA in the valleys of HimAdri. Many kings are >stated to have been between meetings of the seas (udra-sandhishu). >Many gaNa chiefs of the Mlechchhas, worshippers of the Buddha: - >Indra and Suchandra - Mahendra inhibitants amongst the Mlechchhas >will be kings." > >Kali.Ngadreshu, cf. udrasandhishu probably means Java as Kali.Nga >dynasty ruled there in this seventh century. >The text than suggest that Indra and Suchandra-Mahendra were >Mlechchsas. So it seems that the Indian name for Sumatra and Java in >seventh century was KaliNgodreshu. Am I right? Dear Petr, There was a Kalinga dynasty that ruled over Ceylon. So far, it is not known whether a dynasty of the same name ruled in Java in the 7th century. This needs to be checked. Sumatra was known as the Suvarnabumi; the Malay Peninsula was the SuvarnaDvipa. They were collectively known as the Golden Chersonese. Java was known as Yavadvipa. These were the geographical terms. At various times, there were different kingdoms and empires which were known by names such as SrIVijaya, Majapahit, Kadaram, etc. In the 8th century, there were three kingdoms in Java island. In the centre was a kingdom called "Kalinga" for sometime. The Chinese called it Ho-Ling. One of its kings is reputed to have built a temple for Agastya. In fact, there was a king who goes by the name of "KumbaYoni". Agastya statues are found in Java. Did that dynasty go by the name "Kalinga"? No idea. Only a particular kingdom in a part of Java was called Kalinga and not the whole of Java. Better to check up with Gajamada University-History Dept., or the National Museum Jakarta and Jogjakarta. >Does Manimekhalai talks about these places too? Have to check-up also. Regards Jayabarathi > >Sincerely > >Petr Mares >Petr Mares >Lengqie Research >Hlavacova 1163 >182 00, Prague 8 >Czech Republic >Fax:420-2-2423-9157 >Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 >email: lengqie at gmx.net ====================================================> From Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH Thu Mar 4 13:01:30 1999 From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH (Francois Obrist) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 14:01:30 +0100 Subject: Louis de La Vallee Poussin Message-ID: <161227047182.23782.18302282070961872519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Notice biographique par Marcelle Lalou et Jean Przyluski dans : Melanges chinois et bouddhiques, 6eme volume, 1938-1939, p. 5-10. Par Paul Masson-Oursel dans : Journal asiatique, tome 230, p. 287-289. Tout de bon Francois At 10:47 03.03.99 +0000, you wrote: >I have received the following request from Nicolas de la Vallee Poussin, a >descendant of Louis, for information about his distingished ancestor. If >any subscriber to Indology can help him, they can contact him direct by >email at nlvp at yahoo.com. > >John Smith > >-- >Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk >Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) >Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 >Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html > >> Louis de La Vallee Poussin, an ancestor of mine, was very well known >> in the field of Sanskrit translations, as well as Oriental Buddhism >> and a variety of other related subjects. >> >> I am having a lot of trouble finding his biography or resume. All I >> have is a list of publications, and even that is incomplete. >> >> Would you know where I might go to find more information on him - not >> just his achievements in his fields of research, but also where he >> was, whom he taught, who he was taught by, where he lived, marriages, >> children etc etc so that I can tie it back into the family tree? >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Nicolas > > Francois Obrist Section de langues et civilisations orientales Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Mar 4 21:21:01 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 21:21:01 +0000 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization; funerary pottery eviden Message-ID: <161227047187.23782.12171407672216033702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Please see the colorful slides at source related to recent discoveries on cemetery H culture which was an extensive cultural phenomenon ca. 1900 BC: http://www.harappa.com/indus2/index.html (Latest discoveries in Harappa, 1995-98, by J.M. Kenoyer and Richard H. Meadow) Slides 162 and 164 showing the blackbuck antelope, peacock and dotted circles (trefoil motif). It has been noted in an earlier posting that the peacock connotes ji_vanji_va (Pali), may the life live hereafter. In addition to the peacock, dotted circles, fish and elk (antelope or large stag) are also depicted on funerary pottery of the Harappan civilization. To identify the language of the civilization, the following lexemes are presented. The lexeme, iz'mare_ik (Kho.) meaning 'I count' may be related to the pictorial of a 'dotted circle' which appears often, for e.g. on the trefoil inscribed on the shawl of the priest statuette. cf. ca_ran.ar = Jain or Buddhist sages (Ta.lex.) The word is sambha_ra meaning: a token of remembrance, a deer, a fish. sambha_ran.um = a token of remembrance; a memento; a keepsake; a memorial; a gift for fame; sambha_ran.um rahevum = to be a token of remebrance; sambha_ran.um rahe evum karavum = to do a work whereby one's memory will be perpetuated; sambha_ravum (Dh. Des. sam.thariyam from Skt. smr.tam remembered; cf. smaran.a) = to remember (Gujarati lexicon) smaran.a = remembering (R.); memory (BhP.); saran.a = memory (Pali); samaran.a, sumaran.a, saran.a (Pkt.)xo~waran = remembrance, recollection, xo~warni = memorandum, horoscope (A.)(CDIAL 13862). The language of the civilization is close to the languages spoken even today in the Sindhu Sarasvati River Basins. Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From shrao at IA.NET Fri Mar 5 03:37:39 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 21:37:39 -0600 Subject: Advaita-Chandran In-Reply-To: <19990302232009.13871.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047190.23782.14111316465220973958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, nanda chandran wrote: > Even this statement is subjective, as ultimately all statements are :-) Don't you think that is just a variation of the liar's paradox? > It was with Shankara that a full fledged logically consistent view of > AtmavAda developed, which itself played a significant part in the > disappearance of Buddhism in BhArath. I don't think you understand; Dr. Hebbar's point was that Buddhism had *already disappeared* by the time of Shankara's advent (or coming of age), and that thus he had nothing to do with the same. This of course is not connected to whether his view was logically consistent or otherwise; the matter is decidable merely based on historical research, and more than one scholar has concluded on the basis of such that Buddhism was either completely gone, or otherwise on its last legs and destined to lapse, by the time Shankara came around. If you disagree, then the proper thing to do would be to do a deconstructive analysis of the historical research which has gone into providing this conclusion, and to suggest or prove a different one. Merely asserting the beauty or otherwise of Shankara's system does not provide a satisfactory answer. > >Advaita does not in any way represent the best logical > >theory. > > When making such a statement please explain yourself. I believe he meant to point to the various logical errors that arise if Advaita is accepted; for example: 1> AtmAshraya -- it is said that mAyA superimposes upon the Brahman to create the illusory world, but the mAyA itself is not a real entity, and is created by mAyA; ergo, we have mAyA itself as its own creator. 2> upajIvya-virodha -- the perceptions of the world and its elements including texts is essential, and their truth must be admitted if the truth of Advaita (allegedly) derived from them is to have any meaning, yet they are sought to be controverted by their own derivative. Note that it is not merely enough to say that one must achieve Realization and that only until then do these fallacies appear, because that is merely a case of argumentum ad nauseum -- it is hoped that an assertion repeated often enough will pass muster in spite of the lack of decisive evidence. If errors are shown in the theory of illusion and that very same theory is presupposed as its own defense, there is a serious logical error. It has been suggested that notwithstanding this, Advaita is truth, but insofar as logic as we know it goes, there is just no other answer. > >Again, to say Shankara's Advaita is the simplest view >is the > understatement of the year. > > Advaita ? Brahman OR Atman > Visistadvaita and Dvaita ? Brahman + Atman + world > > So which of these equations is simpler? That is a non sequitur. There is no rule that a "simple equation" necessarily corresponds to the truth. Besides, if we were to admit such a rule, would it not follow that shUnyavAda, which [allegedly] admits even less, be even "more simple"? > the same thing with an Ishvara included, so they can seek refuge in > adhrshta or the God's mysterious will, in case of logical inconsistency! Such as what, for example? > But philosophically the so called nAstikas are on better footing than > the theists. My turn, again, to ask you to explain yourself. > >Yes, Shankara is a prachanna MahAyAnika. Anybody, who >believes > in two levels of reality like them certainly >befits the > nomenclature. The vast majority of the >"Vedic" systems are > realistic. Shankara is the odd man >out!!! (BNH) > > When the shruti says Brahman is beyond the intellect and senses, how > else can you develop a logically consistent philosophy? By definition > the absolute is beyond the relative. So the only way out is two levels > of reality. It is possible to develop a logically consistent philosophy by simply admitting that Brahman is beyond the intellect and the senses, as Shruti advises. It is unclear why denying the reality of the intellect and the senses, and their products, beyond which Brahman is stated to be, would not amount to denying Brahman as well. Any "Brahman" who is posited after denying these is a product of someone's imagination or declarative statement, and is not a product of the statement of Shruti. Of course, it is also unclear why interpreting Shruti to mean that the world is unreal, given that Brahman is beyond it, is "logically consistent." Surely there is no rule, "if there is an X beyond a certain Y, then Y is illusory," thus? Or even that "if Brahman is beyond X, then X must be illusory," thus? These assertions cannot simply be made in their own aid; the fact remains that nowhere do we find Shruti directly stating these things. Note also that your assertion of two levels of reality is rather dicey, for you are unable to meaningfully state which level of reality your statement itself is on. > You think Madhva?s question about the source of the illusion in > VijnAnavAda is sharp dialectic. How can I reason with you? Do you something wrong with the question itself, or do you know the answer? Regards, Shrisha Rao From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 5 13:30:11 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 05:30:11 -0800 Subject: Velala in Andhra Message-ID: <161227047206.23782.10505700927823432391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Velala is a village, 2 kilometers from the famous temple Sangamesvara. The Velala village is on the bank of the Krishna river. For the Velala village description and inscriptions, see p. 42, 48, 83, 147, 156, 170, 172-3, 187, 205-6, 599-601, 602 in B. Dagens, Entre Alampur et Srisailam, 1984, Tome I. Like Beluur and BeLagAm, there must be more place names in Andhra and Karnataka with words cognate with vEL, vELALan2, vELaan2, etc., Inscriptional and Place name studies will be useful. Regards, N. Ganesan ----------------------------------------------------------------- S. Palaniappan wrote on 26 Apr 1998 <> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Fri Mar 5 09:41:43 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 09:41:43 +0000 Subject: Ref. check verse 6.41 Bhagavad Gita In-Reply-To: <01J8GTTPKEK28WWC3J@nacdh4.nac.ac.za> Message-ID: <161227047201.23782.1755072630042095244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Charles Wikner wrote: > On Thu, 04 Mar 1999, John Smith wrote: > > > An optional sandhi for final -n before initial l- is simply to write the > > -n as an anusvara. > > Is there authortity for that? I had assumed that the use > of anusvAra here was due to ignorance or font limitations. It's not so much a question of authority as of usage. (I am here going to use "pure" Harvard-Kyoto ASCII: "M" means anusvara, "&" means candrabindu.) Whitney, for instance, notes that the normal MS usages are "trIMlokAn" or "trI&llokAn", and suggests that a "better" usage would be "trI&l lokAn". (Grammar, 206a.) He also states that, "according to the Hindu grammarians", final *m* before l- becomes a nasalised "l", in exactly the same way as happens to final -n (71, 206, 213d) -- so that the use of anusvara for -n is "just as reasonabl[e]" as for -m. Nasalisation is a notoriously difficult area, and I'd be interested to know what "the Hindu grammarians" do actually say here, since Whitney is not the most reliable witness; but there is no reason to mistrust his comments on MS usage. Indeed, the sandhi -n + l- -> -M + l- occasionally finds its way into print -- there's an example in one or other of the Brahmana paasages in Boehtlingk's Chrestomathie, for instance, though a rapid search fails to locate the exact spot. > ... > Translations to hand take puNyakRtAm as genitive plural of > puNyakRt: worlds of the meritorious (=merit-performers), but > I see no objection to taking puNyakRtAn as accusative plural > of bahuvrIhi puNyakRta: worlds prepared for the meritorious/ > created by merit (as dvaita/advaita interpretations). I presume you mean tatpuruSa, not bahuvrIhi. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From alvapillai.veluppillai at TEOL.UU.SE Fri Mar 5 08:44:41 1999 From: alvapillai.veluppillai at TEOL.UU.SE (Alvappillai Veluppillai) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 09:44:41 +0100 Subject: Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa and MaNimEkalai In-Reply-To: <6fc1b5bb.36de1a27@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227047198.23782.6622030028434152135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In a message dated 3/3/99 8:03:54 AM Central Standard Time, lengqie at GMX.NET >writes: > >> Are there any ancient manuscripts or engravings related to >> MaNimEkalai or how is its age prooved? > >May be Dr. A. Veluppillai at Uppasala can discuss this more. > > >Regards >S. Palaniappan I am sorry to state that there are no ancient manuscripts or engravings related to the MaNimEkalai. The dating of this work remains difficult and different scholars have dated it from 2nd c. AD to tenth century AD. I have discussed the difficulties, including arguments of other scholars who assert various dates and have concluded that the sixth century AD is the most acceptable date. I will not say that the date has been proved. For a discussion of this problem, see my article 'Historical Background of the MaNimEkalai and Indigenization of Buddhism' in the vol. ' A Buddhist Woman's Path to Enlighenment' Uppsala University, 1997, ed. Peter Schalk. Regards, A.Veluppillai From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Mar 5 14:48:49 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 09:48:49 -0500 Subject: travelling over the 'black sea' Message-ID: <161227047214.23782.9102479255762161543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't know the origin but the first place to look would be in P.V. Kane's History of Dharmasastra. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. >>> Peter Flugel 03/05 4:59 AM >>> Does anyone know the original sources of the prohibition to travel overseas, which led to caste excommunications not too long ago? Peter Peter Fluegel 16 Elsinore Gardens London NW2 1SS, UK Tel. 0181 - 830 7283 email: pf at cix.co.uk From pf at CIX.CO.UK Fri Mar 5 09:59:00 1999 From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (Peter Flugel) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 09:59:00 +0000 Subject: travelling over the 'black sea' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047204.23782.13747696590816675688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the original sources of the prohibition to travel overseas, which led to caste excommunications not too long ago? Peter Peter Fluegel 16 Elsinore Gardens London NW2 1SS, UK Tel. 0181 - 830 7283 email: pf at cix.co.uk From WIKNER at NACDH4.NAC.AC.ZA Fri Mar 5 08:00:33 1999 From: WIKNER at NACDH4.NAC.AC.ZA (Charles Wikner) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 10:00:33 +0200 Subject: Ref. check verse 6.41 Bhagavad Gita Message-ID: <161227047193.23782.12860206358583874998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 04 Mar 1999, John Smith wrote: > An optional sandhi for final -n before initial l- is simply to write the > -n as an anusvara. Is there authortity for that? I had assumed that the use of anusvAra here was due to ignorance or font limitations. Other applications of torli (P.8.4.60) occur in gItA: 18:17 imAn lokAn --> imAMllokAn 18:71 SubhAn lokAn --> SubhAMllokAn where Ml represents a nasalized-l (in nAgarI, candrabindu above first "l" not previous syllable as often printed). > It seems fairly clear that the phrases in question > are, in pre-sandhi form, sukRtAm lokAn and puNyakRtAm lokAn "the worlds of > the doers of what is good" (i.e. "the heavenly realms"). The alternative > interpretation (su/puNya-kRtAn lokAn) simply makes no sense: "the > well/virtuously made worlds". > > Whether the confusion is scribal, editorial, or a mixture of both I am > unsure, but at some stage the final anusvara has come to be taken as > representing -n not -m, and the spelling adjusted accordingly. If the > phrases were used in any other case than the accusative plural this would > phrases were used in any other case than the accusative plural this would > presumably not have happened (or would the scribes/editors have emended > *puNyakRtAM lokAH to *puNyakRtA lokAH?). Translations to hand take puNyakRtAm as genitive plural of puNyakRt: worlds of the meritorious (=merit-performers), but I see no objection to taking puNyakRtAn as accusative plural of bahuvrIhi puNyakRta: worlds prepared for the meritorious/ created by merit (as dvaita/advaita interpretations). Regards, Charles. From WIKNER at NACDH4.NAC.AC.ZA Fri Mar 5 08:08:15 1999 From: WIKNER at NACDH4.NAC.AC.ZA (Charles Wikner) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 10:08:15 +0200 Subject: anusvara, anunAsika and chandrabindu,bindu and nasal mutes Message-ID: <161227047195.23782.4287206111115342870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Harry Spier wrote: > To sum up can anyone clarify the relationship between anusvAra, > anunAsika, nasal mutes and the signs bindu and chandrabindu? Strictly speaking the terms anusvAra and anunAsika refer to the _spoken_ sound and not the _written_ form (as do Panini's rules). anunAsika: This refers to the five nasal stops, as well as any ========= vowel or three of the semi-vowels (y,l,v) when they are pronounced through nose and mouth together (at the same time) (P.1.1.8) anusvAra: refers to the nasal _after_-sound appended to a vowel, ======== and normally followed by a consonant. There are two types of anusvAra: (a) "true" anusvAra before a sibilant, h, or r (which do not have equivalent nasal sounds). This is generally pronounced as G-like in northern India and m-like further south. (b) "substitute" anusvAra before a stop or before the three semivowels y, l, and v. These may be sounded as the class nasal before a stop, or as a nasalized semivowel before a semivowel. (In English the "n" functions as an anusvAra when similarly sandwiched between vowel and consonant, e.g. wink, winch, wind.) In transliteration, Whitney and Monier-Willams distinguish between the true and substitute anusvAra-s: I see no benefit in doing so, nor is it current practice. The anusvAra mainly arises as a substitute for a pada-final "m" before a following consonant (P.8.3.23). Note that an upasarga is also considered to be a pada, thus sam+dhi --> saMdhi. bindu: the dot above the line indicates either type of anusvAra. ===== candrabindu: (a) above the line (where a bindu would be positioned) =========== indicates an anunAsika vowel. (b) above the line, over a semivowel (y,l,v), indicates an anunAsika semivowel. (c) to the right of a syllable and with a virAma below it, is used in some texts to indicate the "true" anusvAra (i.e before sibilant, h, r) and may be pronounced "gna". (There are also other forms that indicate this function.) > Is it just as correct to write the class nasal for "m" before mutes > or nasals as it is to use the anusvAra sign the bindu. Is this merely > a matter of presentation, equivalent and equally correct? No. The replacement of the substitute anusvAra is optional at the end of a pada (P.8.4.58-59). To cater for the variety of traditions in pronunciation, this anusvAra should remain as such in the written form in both devanAgarI and transliteration. E.g. Monier-Williams dictionary makes the substitute (in sound) before a stop but not before a semivowel, and thus his dictionary order for words beginning with "sam" (e.g. saMkalpa is found where you would expect saGkalpa, and after saMyoga which he treats as a true anusvAra in sound). (Interestingly, M-W never indicates an anusvAra before an oSThya stop, e.g. sambanda never saMbanda. Anyone know why?) Retaining the notation for the substitute anusvAra also distinguishes between saMga (sam+gam, company) and saGga (<-- saJj, attachment). The former is not used in the gItA, but the latter is, e.g. 2:62. (Aside: Bhaja Govindam 9 (Chinmaya edition) begins satsaGngatve nissaGgatvaM... and then gives the padAni with anusvAra for both G's. Should that be satsaMgatve nisaGgatvaM... ?) However, you will find people wrongly using the substitute anusvAra _within_ a pada (as short-hand, due to font limitations, to improve legibility), e.g. *aMgya, *aMktvA -- in these examples rather use halanta-G (yech!) in print. That said, don't be confused when the anusvAra is used in compounds: ahaMkRtaH (BG 18:27) is correct. I hope that more knowledgeable grammarians will confirm or correct this understanding. Regards, Charles. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 5 19:14:23 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 11:14:23 -0800 Subject: references of the origin of veda Message-ID: <161227047225.23782.16795645055519911976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 1 Mar 1999, Jon Skarpeid wrote: > According to K.Subharhmanyam, in his trans and commentary to > BrahmakANDa of BhartRharis VAkyapadIyam, > the Veda is described as anAdi, without beginning. > Are anybody able to give me some references to texts. I am > particulary interested if this notion is found in the writings of > Abhinavagupta, but any referance would do. Pl. check the essays from: L. Patton, Authority, anxiety and canon: Essays in Vedic interpretation, SUNY, 1994 Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Fri Mar 5 17:37:28 1999 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 12:37:28 -0500 Subject: Gita translations Message-ID: <161227047217.23782.2727333482127264287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been impressed with Harry Spier's diligence and attention to detail, but it got me to thinking. I read somewhere long ago that the Gita is one of the most translated texts in the world (perhaps second only to the Bible). My question is, is there one translation into English that is generally recognized as the best translation? If so, what is it? If not, why not? Brian -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From shrao at IA.NET Fri Mar 5 18:40:48 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 12:40:48 -0600 Subject: references of the origin of veda In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000301211246.007d1c10@pat.hint.no> Message-ID: <161227047219.23782.13754238872421511434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 1 Mar 1999, Jon Skarpeid wrote: > According to K.Subharhmanyam, in his trans and commentary to BrahmakANDa of > BhartRharis VAkyapadIyam, > > the Veda is described as anAdi, without beginning. > > Are anybody able to give me some references to texts. I am particulary > interested if this notion is found in the writings of Abhinavagupta, but > any referance would do. I'm not sure about Abhinavagupta, but the notion is as old as the Vedas themselves. Madhva takes up the issue in his vishhNu-tattva-vinirNaya, where a proof is given. A coarse summary is as follows: the main point he and his commentators make is that the only reason to *reject* the unauthoredness of the Vedas is by their sententiality; i.e., on the basis of the inference "anything that is made of sentences is authored, just as worldly (non-Vedic) sentences." This inference needs an `upAdhi' or additional qualification in the form of a "lack of fame of authoredness," according to Madhva, which makes it inapplicable to the Vedas, which do not have that upAdhi: "anything made of sentences and not having the fame of unauthoredness, is authored, just as worldly (non-Vedic) sentences, which are made of sentences, and do not have the fame for unauthoredness," does nothing to prove the case with the Vedas. Therefore, given the `vAkyatvahetoH sopAdhikatvaM', positing authors for Vedas amounts to proof by imagination, and thus has no validity; the lack of validity in the counter itself proves the case, which is the unauthoredness of the Vedas. Various objections, such as references to mortals in the Vedas, references to birth/creation of Vedas, why a secretly composed statement would not "have the fame of unauthoredness," etc., are also dealt with. See the VTVN-TIkA for details. Madhva also quotes the RV, such as `vAchA virUpa nityayA' (VIII.64-6), as Vedic statements of their own eternality; this is explained by his commentator -- `tasmai nUnamabhidyave vAchA virUpa nityayA | vR^ishhNe chodasva sushhTutim.h' iti mantrasya ayamarthaH | "abhitau dyau prakAsho yasyAvabhidyustasmai abhidyave vR^ishhNe varshhitre nUnaM nishchitaM he virUpa nityayA vAchA vedalaxaNayA sushhTutiM shobhanAM stutiM chodasva preraya kuru" iti virUpaR^ishhiM pratyuchate | The reference to `vedalaxaNa' in the commentary is meant to show that even words such as `veda', `shruti', and `AmnAya' themselves indicate the special qualities of their referent: vedAste nityavinnatvAt.h shrutayaschAkhilaiH | AmnAyo ananyathA pAThAdIshabuddhisthitA sadA || A similar one is: nendriyANi nAnumAnaM veda hyevainaM vedayanti tasmAdAhuH vedAH | -- which is explained as: enaM paramAtmAnam.h | tasmAt.h vedanakaraNatve samAne.api `asAdhAraNyena vyapadeshA bhavanti' iti nyAyAt.h vishishhTavastuvedanakaraNatvAdeva hi etAn.h "vedA" ityAhuH | Some other statements of the RV which are relevant are (a) `sahasradhA mahimAnaH yAvad.h brahma vishhThitaM tAvatI vAk.h' (ref. not known to me, but probably in maNDala X), which states that the Veda itself is coeval with Brahman (elsewhere stated to be eternal); and (b) `kashchhandasAM yogamAveda dhIraH ko dhishhNyAM prati vAchaM papAda' (X.114-9), which asks how one can accept that the Veda is authored, when it is not even properly and completely understood by anyone; one cannot create what is beyond one's capacity to comprehend -- chhandasAM vedAnAM yogamarthaiH saH vAchyavAchakabhAvasambandha ko dhIro dhImAn.h Aveda samyag.h veda? na ko.api | dhishhNyAM buddhipUrvAM vAchaM vedavAchaM kaH pratipapAda parAn.h prati prativAditavAn.h? na ko.api | vedArthasya j~nAtA j~nAtvA vyAkhyAto.api durlabhaH, kimuta tatkartA? -- iti | References to Vedic eternality are also seen in the Advaita tradition. In his commentary on the sUtra `ata eva cha nityatvam.h' Shankara quotes RV X.71-3 in support of the claim that the Vedic seers stated the already-existing Vedic statements -- tathA cha mantravarNaH `yaj~nena vAchaH padavIyamAyantAmanvavindannR^ishhishhu pravishhTam.h' iti sthitAmeva vAchamanuvinnAM darshayati | His commentator makes clear that this is meant to cover some perceived shortcoming in the mImAmsaka "proof" of Vedic unauthoredness -- nanu prAchyAmeva mImAMsAyAM nityatvaM siddhaM tat.h kiM punaH sAdhyata? ityata Aha ... (bhAmatI). The latter's commentator says that some work called `bhAratIvilAsa' is being refuted here: `bhAratIvilAso.anavakAshaH'. I have not heard of a relevant extant text called bhAratIvilAsa; perhaps this was some nyAya text which was current or recent at the time of Shankara or Vachaspati. Other references are seen in the `bR^ihadvArtikA' of Sureshvara, and in the `shAstraprakAshikA' commentary on the same by Anandagiri. A detailed discussion of unauthoredness may also be found in a preface Sayana gives to his commentary on the Atharva-Veda. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Jon. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Mar 5 18:43:34 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 13:43:34 -0500 Subject: Sources of lexicography In-Reply-To: <342524CDC@elo.Helsinki.FI> Message-ID: <161227047230.23782.11387587165868458896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 15:46 +0200 3/5/99, Klaus Karttunen wrote: >, what did MW mean, >when he referred to the first edition of his own dictionary. Had he >forgotten, where the word was taken into the dictionary or what? Vanity. --See p. xxxii (his own notes from various texts).... ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Wales Professor of Sanskrit Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electr. Journ. of Vedic Stud.) Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm witzel at fas.harvard.edu From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 5 21:48:49 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 13:48:49 -0800 Subject: Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa and MaNimEkalai Message-ID: <161227047240.23782.16390006267934697234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is interesting that Manjusrimulakalpa was discovered at MaNalikkara MaTam near Padmanabhapuram, very close to Kanyakumari. Its editor was T. ganapati sastri at Thiruvananthapuram. I have read that Manjusrimulakalpa is one of the very few Buddhist texts to be found in India; Many Buddhist texts have been recovered from mss. elsewhere (Central Asia, Tibet, China, Japan, Nepal & so on). Is this true? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Mar 5 19:02:38 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 14:02:38 -0500 Subject: Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa and MaNimEkalai In-Reply-To: <199903031355.OAA27976@vega.inec.cz> Message-ID: <161227047234.23782.10598058091845628652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 3/3/99, Petr Mares wrote: >I previously believed that Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa is a South Indian >text. >K. P. Jayaswal in his rendition of the historical part (part III of >Trivandrum edition - pp. 579-656) of the Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa > .... , claims ... >that Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa was written in >Bengal. ... it discusses the pAla period of 750A.D. Equally, the Licchavi dynasty of Nepal, also up to c. 750 (when they peter out, no more inscriptions) It would be unusual for a Southern text to be so well informed about the Himalayas. >the AMMK also mentions the South Seas, it says: >verses 636-640 >"Everywhere the dvIpas too, in the Kali.Ngadreshu >the kAma-rUpa-kalA in the valleys of HimAdri. kaamaruupa = W. Assam Many kings are >stated to have been between meetings of the seas (udra-sandhishu). >Many gaNa chiefs of the Mlechchhas, worshippers of the Buddha: - >Indra and Suchandra - Mahendra inhibitants amongst the Mlechchhas >will be kings." Mahendra is a mountain chain in Orissa (E. Ghats) >Kali.Ngadreshu, cf. udrasandhishu probably means Java as Kali.Nga kalinga and uDra = Orissa Many Indian names of countries have been transferred to SE Asia: Kamboja, Kalinga, Trilinga, Zyaama, Campaa etc. MW. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Wales Professor of Sanskrit Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electr. Journ. of Vedic Stud.) Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm witzel at fas.harvard.edu From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 5 19:23:57 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 14:23:57 -0500 Subject: Gita translations Message-ID: <161227047228.23782.1188816510179602613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ). Brian Akers Wrote: >My question is, is there one translation into English that is generally >recognized as the best translation? If so, what is it? If not, why not? > >Brian > > In the many translations of the Bhagavad Gita, the name that keeps coming up again and again in the translators remarks about whose translation they are indebted to is Franklin Edgerton. Franklin Edgerton in his introduction names those to whom he is indebted, but then singles out one other not as useful to him in translation or scientifically exact but as one that particularly captured the spirit of the Gita, and that was "The Song Celestial" by Edwin Arnold. There can never be a "best" translation of the Gita because of its spiritual and multi-dimensional character. There are so many translations because it has touched so many people. And each translation is successful to the extent that the author is successful in transmitting what it touched in him, which must necessarily be different in each individual. No great book will ever be encompassed in a dry recording of the exact meanings of its individual words. Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU Fri Mar 5 20:31:31 1999 From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt Thorp) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 14:31:31 -0600 Subject: Gita translations In-Reply-To: <19990305192358.3841.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047237.23782.7090817985064650298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re Gita translations: Take a look at Kees. W. Bolle's translation (University of California Press, I think 1979) and especially his concluding essay "On Translating the Bhagavadgita," where he discusses various widely available translations, including Edgerton, Ryder, Hill, Prabhavananda, Bhaktivedanta, and so forth. Interesting in Bolle's translation is his rendering of karman as "ritual." Many would agree that Barbara Miller's translation is commendable. Burt Thorp English Department University of North Dakota Grand Forks ND 58202-7209 From lengqie at GMX.NET Fri Mar 5 13:34:31 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 14:34:31 +0100 Subject: Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa and MaNimEkalai Message-ID: <161227047208.23782.2117937827333182698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am sorry to state that there are no ancient manuscripts or engravings >related to the MaNimEkalai. The dating of this work remains difficult and >different scholars have dated it from 2nd c. AD to tenth century AD. I have >discussed the difficulties, including arguments of other scholars who >assert various dates and have concluded that the sixth century AD is the >most acceptable date. >I will not say that the date has been proved. Dear Alvappillai Veluppillai Thank you for the email and the detailed answer, regarding the metter I would like to ask few more detailed question if you or anybody can find time to answer. Here they are: Are the 1. traces of Buddhism in Purananuru, 2. Silappadhikaram of the Jain poet Ilango Adigal, 4. quotations from Ilambodhiyar found in the Natrinai, 5. Nilakesi, 6. quotations from Kundaleksi by Nagaguttanar 7. MaNimEkhalai 8. or other south Indian early literature giving any definite time when the arguments between 1. Jains (tIrthakaras) and Buddhists 2. sAmkhya and mahAyAna in South India started and what was the main areas they were dissagreeing on? Are the tIrthakaras to be identified with the sAmkhya thought in this case? Are there any traces in the above works about 1. their different understanding of saMsthAna-viniv.rttiH 2. their different understanding of nirvANa. 2a. Was it concerned with the tIrthakaras believe, that nirvANa can be attained through pa~Nca-viM/Sati-tattva-avabodhaH 2b. Was it concerned with their understanding of prak.rti-puruSa-antara-dar/SanaM and guNa-pariNAma-kart.rtvam in relation to nirvAna When were these discussions going on in South India, does anybody know? Sincerely Petr Mares From roheko at MERKUR.NET Fri Mar 5 14:39:53 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 15:39:53 +0100 Subject: travelling over the 'black sea' Message-ID: <161227047212.23782.2129872239240689722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lieber pf, warum fragst du denn nicht mich? Bisher wohl eher eine erste Hypothese, die weitere Nachforschungen erforderlich macht. Man trifft in den Jaina-Berichten immer wieder auf Episoden, in denen geschildert wird, wie ein herumirrender M?nch schwere Schuld auf sich l?dt, wenn er in eine Pf?tze tritt. Bei Regen ist das Wandern sowieso verboten. Wegen der Kleinstlebewesen vielleicht, die der tollpatschige M?nch beim Tritt in den Pf?tze quietschetot macht. Die mir nur m?ndlich zugetragene Hypothese nun schlie?t an solche ?berlieferte Vorstellungen an: Auch das Reisen ?ber das Meer w?rde zum massenhaften Mord von Kleinstlebewesen f?hren. Vielleicht hat VON GLASENAPP (Der Jainismus) hierzu was geschrieben. Ich pers?nlich bin von dieser These noch nicht vollst?ndig ?berzeugt. roheko Peter Flugel wrote: > Does anyone know the original sources of the prohibition to travel > overseas, which led to caste excommunications not too long ago? > > Peter > > Peter Fluegel > 16 Elsinore Gardens > London NW2 1SS, UK > Tel. 0181 - 830 7283 > email: pf at cix.co.uk From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Fri Mar 5 13:46:42 1999 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 15:46:42 +0200 Subject: Sources of lexicography Message-ID: <161227047210.23782.6786378869426642262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues I have lately been wondering the following question. Moniew Williams in his dictionary occasionally refers to Wilson's dictionary. This is understandable as Wilson's Dictionary was compiled by a team of pandits and a word or meaning culled from there may represent oral tradition of Bengali pandits. But the question is, what did MW mean, when he referred to the first edition of his own dictionary. Had he forgotten, where the word was taken into the dictionary or what? Regards Klaus Karttunen From lengqie at GMX.NET Fri Mar 5 18:53:45 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 19:53:45 +0100 Subject: Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa and MaNimEkalai Message-ID: <161227047222.23782.16761487762567889212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan Thank you for the email with interesting answers. > Apparently, at one place, the author refers to vidiza (modern Bhelsa, > M.P.) as being situated between west and north (pazcimottarayomadhyam). > This is taken by scholars to imply that the place of authorship was > probably dhAnyakaTaka. You may want to compare this against the suggestion > of Bengal and see which is more likely. I see, but in any case it is not doubted that the origin of AMMK is not in South India (T.N., K.), is it? K.P. Jayaswal reasoning is based on one parivarta of AMMK called rAjavyAkarana-parivarta, a part of 1005 verses. KPJ says that author of AMMK pays the greatest attention to gauDa and magadha. The AMMK survey from nAga and gupta up to pAla times is basically survey from gauDa and its surroundings written from the point of view of gauDa, showing intimate concern with gauDa and surrounding provincies. KPj says that for the authorof AMMK gauDa meant the whole of Bengal and it includes magadha. But i suppose that it is possible that it can be due to simple reason - that the history in AMMK is spoken as prophecy from the mouth of Buddha and it may not be related author's location. > In an earlier posting Petr Mares mentioned that vajrabodhi visited Lanka > before he visited Ceylon. In this connection, has Petr explored why the > name of the river which originates from the Potiyil (malaya) mountain of > south India is also the name for the island of Ceylon, tAmraparNi? It is very interesting note but I have to admit that I have very little resources about the South India here - much less than I would like to have - to enable me to find out basically anything about tAmraparNi. You have some answer? > > According to Lal Mani Joshi the sarvatathAgatAdhiSThAna-vyUha, a > semi-tantric Buddhist text found in Gilgit and belonging to the 5th or 6th > century A.D. states that the Lord delivered this text at Potalaka parvata. > Does anybody know more about this text and what exactly it says regarding > the location of Potalaka? How old is the manuscript? There is very interesting site discussing Gilgit manuscripts at: http://ishi.lib.berkeley.edu/buddhist/bbrc/index.html They have a large biblio about publications related to Gilgit sutras http://ishi.lib.berkeley.edu/buddhist/bbrc/biblio_gilgit_mss.html and they list the sutras on: http://ishi.lib.berkeley.edu/buddhist/bbrc/list_gilgit_mss.html professor Yao-ming Tsai who is responsible for this part of the site may know the answers. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat Mar 6 00:32:28 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 20:32:28 -0400 Subject: Advaita-Chandran Message-ID: <161227047242.23782.608006816366990892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Shrisha Rao: BRAVO! and very many thanks for taking the time and the trouble to answer Nanda Chandran on my behalf. Given my teaching load and other activities it would have taken a long time for me to have given a technically precise reply like yours. Aneka Vandanegalu! With Regards, B.N.Hebbar From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Mar 6 12:36:52 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 07:36:52 -0500 Subject: Anusvaara for word-final 'n'? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047251.23782.16450589671170363361.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Smith writes: >Whitney, for instance, notes that the normal MS usages are "trIMlokAn" or >"trI&llokAn", and suggests that a "better" usage would be "trI&l lokAn". >(Grammar, 206a.) He also states that, "according to the Hindu >grammarians", final *m* before l- becomes a nasalised "l", in exactly the >same way as happens to final -n (71, 206, 213d) -- so that the use of >anusvara for -n is "just as reasonabl[e]" as for -m. Nasalisation is a >notoriously difficult area, and I'd be interested to know what "the Hindu >grammarians" do actually say here, since Whitney is not the most reliable >witness; but there is no reason to mistrust his comments on MS usage. As far as the usage of the MS goes, I have noticed the same thing that a word-final 'n' is often turned into an Anusvaara, before 'l' and before other consonants as well. However, the only Paninian authority for turning a word-final 'n' into an Anusvara is in sandhis like devaan+ca > devaa.mzca. Here, Panini offers an option of an Anusvaara / Anunaasika vowel. The only other context where an 'n' can change to an Anusvaara in Panini is in word-internal derivational contexts: kuru+anti > kuru+a.mti > kuru+anti. To a non-Paninian, such a derivational process may seem strange. However, this process prevents this 'n' from changing to '.n', because the rule of retroflexion of 'n' after r/.s does not recognize this 'n', it recognizes the Anusvaara, which cannot be changed to a retroflex '.n'. Anyway, apart from cases like devaa.mzca, there is no Paninian sanction for turning a word-final 'n' into an Anusvaara. Best, Madhav Deshpande From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Mar 6 09:24:53 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 10:24:53 +0100 Subject: SV: Gita translations Message-ID: <161227047245.23782.12822182385521485868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Re Gita translations: Take a look at Kees. W. Bolle's translation (University of California Press, I think 1979) and especially his concluding essay "On Translating the Bhagavadgita," where he discusses various widely available translations, including Edgerton, Ryder, Hill, Prabhavananda, Bhaktivedanta, and so forth. Interesting in Bolle's translation is his rendering of karman as "ritual." Many would agree that Barbara Miller's translation is commendable. [Lars Martin Fosse] How is van Buitenen's translation regarded? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From pf at CIX.CO.UK Sat Mar 6 11:35:00 1999 From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (Peter Flugel) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 11:35:00 +0000 Subject: travelling over the 'black sea' In-Reply-To: <36DFECB8.1DEFC5E1@merkur.net> Message-ID: <161227047249.23782.392881295779821948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gut mal wieder von Dir zu hoeren Rolf-Heiner! Ich hoffe du hast die Habilgeschichte zwischenzeitigt verkraftet. Was die Jains betrifft, so ist die Sache natuerlich klar. Doch auch Brahmanen etc sind diesem Brach gefolgt. Daher meine Frage? Peter From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 6 16:40:27 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 11:40:27 -0500 Subject: Grammatical question. Strange case of doubled j's Message-ID: <161227047254.23782.2416991978251797274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Uddhava Gita verse 9.45 last line reads: vicaSTe mayi sarvAtmajjyotirjyotiSi saMyutam || I had thought that the doubled jj's might be a misprint, or that the "a" before the j's should have been "A" but I asked an elderly Indian gentlemen who had been speaking sanskrit all his life and he said that it was correct and he knew this intuitively by the pronounciation but couldn't give the rule. Could someone confirm if this is correct and if so why. Thank you Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From emstern at NNI.COM Sat Mar 6 17:40:16 1999 From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 12:40:16 -0500 Subject: Advaita-Chandran In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047256.23782.1279442771541140765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> n Thursday, 4 March, Shrisha Rao >On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, nanda chandran wrote: > >> Even this statement is subjective, as ultimately all statements are :-) > >Don't you think that is just a variation of the liar's paradox? > >> It was with Shankara that a full fledged logically consistent view of >> AtmavAda developed, which itself played a significant part in the >> disappearance of Buddhism in BhArath. > >I don't think you understand; Dr. Hebbar's point was that Buddhism had >*already disappeared* by the time of Shankara's advent (or coming of age), >and that thus he had nothing to do with the same. This of course is not >connected to whether his view was logically consistent or otherwise; the >matter is decidable merely based on historical research, and more than one >scholar has concluded on the basis of such that Buddhism was either >completely gone, or otherwise on its last legs and destined to lapse, by >the time Shankara came around. If you disagree, then the proper thing to >do would be to do a deconstructive analysis of the historical research >which has gone into providing this conclusion, and to suggest or prove a >different one. Merely asserting the beauty or otherwise of Shankara's >system does not provide a satisfactory answer. I have not been following this thread very closely, but cannot let this portion slip by without comment. One of zaGkara's commentators, vAcaspatimizraH, who lived some considerable time after zaGkaraH, also wrote various other works, including a commentary nyAyakaNikA on maNDanamizra's vidhivivekaH, and nyAyavArttikatAtparyaTIkA. The 11th century Indian Buddhist writers jJAnazrImitraH and his student ratnakIrtiH name vAcaspatimizraH, these two works, and present sometimes extensive extracts from these works, which they then refute from a Buddhist point of view. Their works evidence the persistence of a vigorous intellectual tradition within Indian Buddhism even centuries after zaGkaraH, that suggests that Buddhism had neither disappeared at or before zaGkara's time, nor was it then on its last legs in India. Elliot M. Stern Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA telephone: 215 747 6204 From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sat Mar 6 09:49:15 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 12:49:15 +0300 Subject: Gita translations Message-ID: <161227047247.23782.7826297451458547094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One can get good idea what the major English translations of the GItA look like from the review by Gerald James Larson "The song celestial: Two centuries of the Bhagavad GItA in English" (Philosophy East and West, vol. 31, no. 4, October 1981, pp.513-541). It contains parallel translations of some passages by different authors, their stylistic, pedagogical, interpretive and motivational characteristics being analysed and evaluated. There is no mention of Barbara Miller's translation. Did it appear later than 1981? I would be very grateful to Burt Thorp if he gives more exact reference to this particular translation of the GItA. Thanks in advance, Yaroslav Vassilkov From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Mar 6 20:39:33 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 15:39:33 -0500 Subject: Grammatical question. Strange case of doubled j's In-Reply-To: <19990306164027.16726.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047258.23782.13115448014603204229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The only way a reading like -Atmajjyotir- with the doubled j can be grammatical is through the rules of optional consonantal doubling. Consider Panini's rule 8.4.47 (anaci ca) which says that a consonant of the y-R group (= any consonant, except h), after a vowel, can be doubled optionally, if it is not followed by a vowel. Without getting into interpretational problems of this rule, the rule is applied in a form like -sudhyupaasya.h- (from sudhii+upaasya.h) to derive an alternate form such as -suddhyupaasya.h-. The traditional grammarians like Bha.t.toji Diik.sita point out that for this form, with several optional rules of duplication, we can have the following alternatives: sudhyupaasya.h (eka-dham, eka-yam) suddhyyupaasya.h (dvi-dham, dvi-yam) suddhyupaasya.h (dvi-dham, eka-yam) sudhyyupaasya.h (eka-dham, dvi-yam) Cf. Bha.t.toji's Siddhaantakaumudii. Such optional forms indicate differing habits of pronunciation reflecting regional and other dialects of Sanskrit recorded by Panini. Some of this variation is seen in forms like aatmajjyoti. In fact the grammarians prescribe far more possibilities of duplication than what is attested in the usage of the manuscripts. And, the reverse is also true that manuscripts show occasional duplication which goes beyond the rules of grammarians. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Harry Spier wrote: > The Uddhava Gita verse 9.45 last line reads: > > vicaSTe mayi sarvAtmajjyotirjyotiSi saMyutam || > > I had thought that the doubled jj's might be a misprint, or that > the "a" before the j's should have been "A" but I asked an elderly > Indian gentlemen who had been speaking sanskrit all his life and he said > that it was correct and he knew this intuitively by the pronounciation > but couldn't give the rule. Could someone confirm if this is correct > and if so why. > > > Thank you > > > Harry Spier > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 6 23:01:06 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 18:01:06 -0500 Subject: Grammatical question. Strange case of doubled j's Message-ID: <161227047261.23782.2035576790959087694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande wrote: > The only way a reading like -Atmajjyotir- with the doubled j can >be grammatical is through the rules of optional consonantal doubling. >Consider Panini's rule 8.4.47 (anaci ca) which says that a consonant of >the y-R group (= any consonant, except h), after a vowel, can be doubled >optionally, if it is not followed by a vowel. Without getting into >interpretational problems of this rule, the rule is applied in a form like >-sudhyupaasya.h- (from sudhii+upaasya.h) to derive an alternate form such >as -suddhyupaasya.h-. The traditional grammarians like Bha.t.toji >Diik.sita point out that for this form, with several optional rules of >duplication, we can have the following alternatives: > sudhyupaasya.h (eka-dham, eka-yam) > suddhyyupaasya.h (dvi-dham, dvi-yam) > suddhyupaasya.h (dvi-dham, eka-yam) > sudhyyupaasya.h (eka-dham, dvi-yam) >Cf. Bha.t.toji's Siddhaantakaumudii. > > Such optional forms indicate differing habits of pronunciation >reflecting regional and other dialects of Sanskrit recorded by Panini. >Some of this variation is seen in forms like aatmajjyoti. In fact the >grammarians prescribe far more possibilities of duplication than what is >attested in the usage of the manuscripts. And, the reverse is also true >that manuscripts show occasional duplication which goes beyond the rules >of grammarians. > Best, > Madhav Deshpande > Thank you Madhav, Whitney in his grammar is far more restrictive in describing consonent doubling than the above (y-R group optionally after vowel if not followed by a vowel). Whitney's rules are: 227. ch after vowel required. 228. After r any consonent (except spirant before a vowel) allowed or required. a. some authorities include (h,l, or v) along with r. 229. First consonent of a group - whether interior, or initial after a vowel of a preceeding word - allowed or required. 230. Some rules on inserting nasal sounds and vowel fragments. 230 f. What he calls "one or two cases of yet more doubtful value, see the prAtizAkhyas." Is what Whitney describes (his sections 227,228 and 229) the common occurance of consonent doubling, and those others outside the scope of his rules but within the scope of yaR group as described above of less common occurance? i.e. is Atmajjyotir actually uncommon? Regards, Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lengqie at GMX.NET Sat Mar 6 23:25:36 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 00:25:36 +0100 Subject: sanskrit manuscripts of laNkAvatAra Message-ID: <161227047263.23782.3735368637214726138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues Can anybody please tell me where to look for some older Sanskrit manuscripts or editions of laNkAvatAra sutra. So far I have located those mentioned bellow (and I heard that there are no manuscripts of laNkAvatAra older than 17th. century in NGMPP catalogue.), but none of them is older then few hundred years. 1. Manuscript in Royal Asiatic Society, London 2. Manuscript in University Library, Cambridge 3. Sarat Chandra Das and Satis Chandra Acharya VidyAbhUSana laNkAvatAra fragments published in Darjeeling 1900 in Calcutta Buddhist Text Series 4. Kawaguchi's manuscript from Nepal 5. Rajendralala Mitra's "The Sanskrit Buddhist Literature of Nepal"'s transcribed fragment 6. Prof. J. Takakusu's manuscript from Nepal 7. Raghuvira's Nepali manuscript published by Lokesh Chandra 8. Nanjio's edition of LaNkAvatAra 9. Vaidya's edition of laNkAvatAra 10. corrections of Nanjio's edition by Kosai Yasui appended to his BonBun Wayaku Nyuryogakyo, 1976 Another question I have is: does anybody know whether the project of publishing the Sanskrit laNkAvatAra by E. J. Rapson in Bibliotheca Buddhica Series, St. Petersburg and the same by prof. Minayeff early in this century has ever yield in any results? Thank you for any comment Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sun Mar 7 11:39:57 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 05:39:57 -0600 Subject: Persistence of Buddhism in South India (was Advaita-Chandran) Message-ID: <161227047271.23782.17293246014512677924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 6 Mar 1999 12:40 Elliot Stern wrote: >.... The 11th >century Indian Buddhist writers jJAnazrImitraH and his student ratnakIrtiH >name vAcaspatimizraH, these two works, and present sometimes extensive >extracts from these works, which they then refute from a Buddhist point of >view. Their works evidence the persistence of a vigorous intellectual >tradition within Indian Buddhism even centuries after zaGkaraH, that >suggests that Buddhism had neither disappeared at or before zaGkara's time, >nor was it then on its last legs in India. I have an art historian's interest in this question of the longevity of Buddhism, particularly in South India, at such places as Kadri/Mangalore and Nagappatinam to name but two examples. At the former [a place I didn't dare mention as another possible Potala], there is the well known set of bronze images in the Manjunath temple, the finest of which bears a Kali date equivalent to 968 CE. But it remains unclear when, in the 11th century or much later, it was _rechristened_ to represent BrahmA, due to its 4 heads (while a standard, monastically attired Buddha image is currently said to represent VyAsa). But evidence from Nagapattinam may date from much later still: the Art Institute of Chicago possesses a large seated image of the Buddha (h. 63 inches, 1200 lbs.) that bears a Tamil inscription. Fron an imperfect eye-copy, epigraphers of the ESI have told me that it appears to date from the 15th c. Thus far, the museum's conservation department has been reluctant to permit either an inked estampage to be made or for chalk to be used to temporarily enhance the characters before photography. However, they have recently given me a detailed grid of close up photographs, armed with which I hope to return to Mysore this summer. Perhaps the unnamed informant of guest curator, Pratapaditya Pal's, is correct in surmising that the late inscription is unrelated to the image itself, whose date has been presumed to be 11th century or so on stylistic grounds. But even so, naturally, it will be interesting to learn whether or not any Buddhist sentiments are expressed in this Nayak period edict. Michael Rabe SXU/SAIC/Chicago From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Mar 7 14:33:59 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 06:33:59 -0800 Subject: Persistence of Buddhism in South India (was Advaita-Chandran) Message-ID: <161227047277.23782.9075515239971840419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Rabe, Four years ago, when Dr. R. Nagswamy was visiting me, he told that they opened a room in the British museum, London. He said there are many Buddhist bronzes from Tamilnadu which remain unpublished. He also told that these bronzes can be dated upto 17th century. P. Pal in a book (Sensuous immortals??) has published a nice Maitreya. A beautiful Imperial Chola period bronze. Without seeing the stupa in the forehead, it will look like a standing 'Siva. (will give the reference soon). Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Mar 7 02:00:47 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 07:00:47 +0500 Subject: Advaita-Chandran In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047266.23782.12621829020122245912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have one question to ask. Can spiritual truth be realised by logic? Or is it a matter of experience only. To start the discussion I am presenting my point of view. If spiritual truth falls under the perview of logic there should be many, many people who should have realised it by this time. zRti clearly puts it out of the realm of mind. "yatO vAcO nivartantE aprApya manasA saha" "yan manasA na manutE" etc. Again it is not the advaitins that say that all doubts will be cleared after you experience the truth but the zRti. "bhidyatE hRdayagranthiz chidyantE sarvasamzayAH". This shows that even with the best efforts of our logic doubts persist till one realises the spiritual truth. Though zankara has in one place in mAnDukyOpanishad bhAshya ( in the coommentary on the first kArikA of Advaita PrakaraNa ) says that logic is capable of establishing advaitic truth (which is in his opinion spiritual truth), in his sAdhana pancakaM expresses the inadequacy of logic unaided by zruti to establish spiritual truth. "dustarkAn parityajyatAM zRtimatas tarkOnusandhIyatAm" As a matter of fact if spiritual truth can be established by logic there will not be much use in accepting zRti as a pramANa. Thus it appears the existence of a spiritual truth is vouchsafed by zRti. zRti exhorts that one has to know it himself to become immortal and there is know other way. "tam EvaM vidvAn amRta iha bhavati. nAnyaH panthA ayanAya vidyatE." regards, sarma. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Mar 7 14:00:17 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 09:00:17 -0500 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization; funerary pottery eviden In-Reply-To: <19990304155101.6897.qmail@www0v.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227047273.23782.3344355366797396846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr.Kalyanaraman, thanks for your various postings re;Indus language. Perhaps you noticed that people do not respond (me included). The reason is *methodology.* As we have discussed before your visit here. I think, if you want an echo from indologists, a slight change in approach would be necessary. I will be very frank now, since I think that you have done much valuable work in the field and are on the right track in identifying certain archaic words. As I said then, the method of comparative linguistics has been worked out so well over the past 200 years that they can make *predictions*, and in the case of Mycenean/Cretan (archaic) Greek and Hittite , these predictions of certain sounds and forms have been vindicated as soon as these languages were deciphered... So I suggest to read up on methodology (2 books by Raimo Anttila and H.H.Hock would do well) and especially NOT compare *modern* forms with Sanskrit or Old Tamil... Since all languages change over time, the modern forms can be completely misleading. For example, modern Engl. five : German fuenf : Irish coic: Bretonic pemp- : French cinq : Albanian pese : Lithuanina penk- : Slavic pyat/pet etc. : Hindi panc do not look very much related ... But if you take the OLDER forms, Gothic fimf, Latin quinque, Oscian pomp- (Italic), Greek pente, Hittite panta, Tocharian pen~, Sanskrit panca, and know a few rules of sound change you can see that that all go back to Indo-European *penkwe Or to use modern filmi Hindi, "o mere dil, ... muhabbat ..." Well, dil is from Persian, Muhabbat from Arabic, but the older Hindi word hiya 'heart" is from Prakrit/Pali hadaya which is from Sanskrit hrdaya and hrd. And that belongs to Iranian (Avestan) zered [zRd] > New Persian dil!, Greek kher, IE *k'rd (as in Latin cre-do 'I put my heart' = Skt. zrad - dhA/dadhAmi....). Again the modern forms (dil, hiya) do not allow you to guess the relationships ( zrad-!!) and this is made worse by Persian/Arabic loan words... : e.g., dil : hiya?? In short, one neds to compare old forms with old forms, and modern forms only when also giving the older ancestral ones. In adddtion Skt., Dravidian and Munda have changed their sounds at different rates... So for 2000/3000 BCE, one needs a historical grammar of Indo-Aryan, Dravidian, Munda... Unless you do that, I fear, people will not accept your "sound-alike" comparisons. For example Greek theo-s 'god' = Aztec teo- 'god' or worse, Japanese kau < kahu and German kaufen 'to buy'. But Greek and Aztec are not related, nor are German and Japanese. Or, a more complex, equally unlikely example: Ostyak (Finno-Ugrian) sing 'sun', Wintu (Californian Penutian, Amerind) sin 'sun', English (IE) sun, Santali (Munda, Austroasiatic) sing 'day', sing bonga 'sun'. Such comparisons lead nowhere... And I am afraid, you do similar comparisons in the South Asian field. At 21:21 +0000 3/4/99, S.Kalyanaraman wrote: >It has been noted in an earlier posting that the peacock connotes ji_vanji_va >(Pali), may the life live hereafter. This is an interesting case which we might discuss later.... It involves the Munda word for peacock *mara'k/mara "cryer > peacock", later Sanskrit maara (and Pali etc) 'death, God Death', the Munda peacock symbol = death, and teh Cemetary H peacock pictures on urns with cremated bodies. This may be a very old concept... But certainty is another matter. .. I hope we can have a useful discussion... Yours M. Witzel ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Wales Professor of Sanskrit Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electr. Journ. of Vedic Stud.) Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm witzel at fas.harvard.edu From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sun Mar 7 14:31:21 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 09:31:21 -0500 Subject: Universal varnas? In-Reply-To: <10480914409063@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227047275.23782.6463486023479810296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten writes: >Modern advocates of (Neo-)Hinduism sometimes argue the merits of the >four-varna system on the basis of its supposed universal applicability: the >division of society into an intellectual, a ruling, a productive, and a >serving class is claimed to be a fact all over the world, which fact the >varna system merely recognizes and conforms to. This brand of the so-called varna system conforms only to the capitalist and exploitative structure of the world. It does not take into account the notion that all men and women are equal and there can be universal brotherhood and peace. It discourages the thought that a "serving" class does not have to remain so and a "ruling" class can see its demise. Even though Western societies revolving around religions such as Christianity on the surface do not subscribe to such a varna system, they in fact practice it by conforming to a hierarchical and exploitative social and economic system. On the other hand, even though "old-glory" Hindu scholars advertise that varnashram in Hinduism does not divide the society and it's merely a classification system, it has almost always been a history of the haves and the have-nots and therefore sharply segregative and reactive. The historical rise of Buddhism, Islam, Brahmoism, and Marxism, etc. has taken place because of this segregative and divisive nature of religious and social systems. From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sun Mar 7 16:16:15 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 11:16:15 -0500 Subject: Universal varnas? -- a response In-Reply-To: <14435047809975@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227047283.23782.4599533961542324985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>This brand of the so-called varna system conforms only to the capitalist >>and exploitative structure of the world [... blah, blah ...] > >Please -- must we have this? I made a simple request for facts: did Hindus >of previous times, or did they not, view non-Hindu societies as essentially >varna-like in structure? Your socialist sermon sheds no light on this issue. > >Martin Gansten _____ Some get too worked up at any hint of a political undertone. Then they do the following. 1. They undermine the one who is bringing up politics. (for example, suffixing an excerpt of the said poster with [blah, blah] as if it's meaningless or inane. 2. They arouse sentimental feelings among other such "apolitical" persons on the list by asking "Please -- must we have this?" As if, the "this"-branded post is nothing but trivial and not worthy of such scholarly lists. 3. They would brand the poster someone who is delivering "socialist sermon"s. As if, those who are actively against socialist ideas are not working against such egalitarian concepts. Question is, why do these people get so worked up at political tones? My own observation is: 1. Either they abhor politics and do not want to hear anything remotely political on scholarly lists (as if scholars are not supposed to touch this "dirty" subject); 2. They purposefully undermine and ridicule others who bring up political discussions they believe important and necessary. Politics of religion is a much-cultivated subject and is taught at major universities and colleges all over the world, yet, some pretend it is not. 3. They know that exposing of certain religious and social theories and practices that are pro-status quo and oppressive would bring in a whole host of associated discussions that such "apolitical" scholars would find terribly disturbing; therefore, nipping in the bud of such discussions and discussants is a quick and effective way. We have participated in discussions on this list on subjects such as: Indian Children Born Abroad, and Deepa Mehta's 'Fire' and they were very productive and educative (in spite of the usual namecalling and viciousness around them). I am personally thankful to Indology moderators for allowing such discussions. We will continue similar discussions on subjects such as varna system (and will bring in politics because varna and other such divisive systems HAVE politicized and polarized the society) on this list as long as they are permitted by list moderators. I ask listmembers not to use personally dirisive language that would make them look not so scholarly any more. Thanks for hearing. -Partha Banerjee From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sun Mar 7 10:48:09 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 11:48:09 +0100 Subject: Universal varnas? Message-ID: <161227047269.23782.4001027692933733472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Modern advocates of (Neo-)Hinduism sometimes argue the merits of the four-varna system on the basis of its supposed universal applicability: the division of society into an intellectual, a ruling, a productive, and a serving class is claimed to be a fact all over the world, which fact the varna system merely recognizes and conforms to. Is anyone aware of similar views having been expressed in classical Hinduism (whatever that means!)? In other words, did any traditional Hindu authors conceive of non-Indian races and nations as divided into four varnas or varna-like groups? -- and if so, how did these compare to the domestic varieties in terms of purity etc? Regards, Martin Gansten From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU Sun Mar 7 19:15:25 1999 From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt Thorp) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 13:15:25 -0600 Subject: SV: Gita translations In-Reply-To: <01BE67C0.07FC2760.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227047290.23782.9347089260869953936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By Bolle? or by people on the list who've used Van Buitenen's trsl? Bolle read Sanskrit with Van Buitenen at Chicago, but their approaches are quite different. Bolle tries for both a poetic rendering and for a translation that will be particularly useful for Historians of Religions. Van Buitenen's is the philologist's attack on the problem of translation, or so it seems to me. BTW, Bolle's answer to the question, why one more Gita translation?, is to ask how there can ever be too many translations of an important religious text. We could open a thread on Van Buitenen's MhBh translation--it's been criticized as inaccurate at places, but it often seems to me that at some places he's come up with wonderful renderings. At 10:24 AM 3/6/99 +0100, you wrote: >> Re Gita translations: Take a look at Kees. W. Bolle's translation >(University of California Press, I think 1979) and especially his >concluding essay "On Translating the Bhagavadgita," where he discusses >various widely available translations, including Edgerton, Ryder, Hill, >Prabhavananda, Bhaktivedanta, and so forth. Interesting in Bolle's >translation is his rendering of karman as "ritual." Many would agree that >Barbara Miller's translation is commendable. >[Lars Martin Fosse] >How is van Buitenen's translation regarded? > >Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Norway >Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no > > Burt Thorp English Department University of North Dakota Grand Forks ND 58202-7209 From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU Sun Mar 7 19:19:09 1999 From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt Thorp) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 13:19:09 -0600 Subject: Gita translations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047292.23782.6751394778752988563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Barbara Stoler Miller, *The Bhagavad-Gita: Krishna's Counsel in Time of War* Bantam Books, copyright 1986. At 12:49 PM 3/6/99 +0300, you wrote: >One can get good idea what the major English translations of the GItA look >like from the review by Gerald James Larson "The song celestial: Two centuries >of the Bhagavad GItA in English" (Philosophy East and West, vol. 31, no. 4, >October 1981, pp.513-541). >It contains parallel translations of some passages by different authors, their >stylistic, pedagogical, interpretive and motivational characteristics being >analysed and evaluated. >There is no mention of Barbara Miller's translation. Did it appear later than >1981? I would be very grateful to Burt Thorp if he gives more exact reference >to this particular translation of the GItA. > Thanks in advance, > Yaroslav Vassilkov > > Burt Thorp English Department University of North Dakota Grand Forks ND 58202-7209 From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sun Mar 7 14:43:50 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 15:43:50 +0100 Subject: Universal varnas? Message-ID: <161227047280.23782.12315328863378392577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >This brand of the so-called varna system conforms only to the capitalist >and exploitative structure of the world [... blah, blah ...] Please -- must we have this? I made a simple request for facts: did Hindus of previous times, or did they not, view non-Hindu societies as essentially varna-like in structure? Your socialist sermon sheds no light on this issue. Martin Gansten From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sun Mar 7 21:56:11 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 15:56:11 -0600 Subject: Persistence of Buddhism in South India (was Advaita-Chandran) Message-ID: <161227047294.23782.4839824848460810685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Even the Chennai Govt Museum has very late Buddhist bronzes, presumably from Nagapattinam, but exactly how late I'm not sure...Vijayanagara rather than Chola period for sure though... >Dear Dr. Rabe, > >Four years ago, when Dr. R. Nagswamy was visiting me, >he told that they opened a room in the British museum, London. >He said there are many Buddhist bronzes from Tamilnadu >which remain unpublished. He also told that these bronzes >can be dated upto 17th century. > >P. Pal in a book (Sensuous immortals??) has published a >nice Maitreya. A beautiful Imperial Chola period bronze. >Without seeing the stupa in the forehead, it will look >like a standing 'Siva. (will give the reference soon). > >Regards, >N. Ganesan > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Sun Mar 7 16:38:38 1999 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 17:38:38 +0100 Subject: Universal varnas? -- a response In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047285.23782.18086610017960441622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I for one am getting weary of polemics on this list. Best regards, Ruth Schmidt >>>This brand of the so-called varna system conforms only to the capitalist >>>and exploitative structure of the world [... blah, blah ...] >> >>Please -- must we have this? I made a simple request for facts: did Hindus >>of previous times, or did they not, view non-Hindu societies as essentially >>varna-like in structure? Your socialist sermon sheds no light on this issue. >> >>Martin Gansten > >_____ > >Some get too worked up at any hint of a political undertone. Then they do >the following. > >1. They undermine the one who is bringing up politics. (for example, >suffixing an excerpt of the said poster with [blah, blah] as if it's >meaningless or inane. > >2. They arouse sentimental feelings among other such "apolitical" persons >on the list by asking "Please -- must we have this?" As if, the >"this"-branded post is nothing but trivial and not worthy of such scholarly >lists. > >3. They would brand the poster someone who is delivering "socialist >sermon"s. As if, those who are actively against socialist ideas are not >working against such egalitarian concepts. > >Question is, why do these people get so worked up at political tones? My >own observation is: > >1. Either they abhor politics and do not want to hear anything remotely >political on scholarly lists (as if scholars are not supposed to touch this >"dirty" subject); > >2. They purposefully undermine and ridicule others who bring up political >discussions they believe important and necessary. Politics of religion is a >much-cultivated subject and is taught at major universities and colleges >all over the world, yet, some pretend it is not. > >3. They know that exposing of certain religious and social theories and >practices that are pro-status quo and oppressive would bring in a whole >host of associated discussions that such "apolitical" scholars would find >terribly disturbing; therefore, nipping in the bud of such discussions and >discussants is a quick and effective way. > > >We have participated in discussions on this list on subjects such as: >Indian Children Born Abroad, and Deepa Mehta's 'Fire' and they were very >productive and educative (in spite of the usual namecalling and viciousness >around them). I am personally thankful to Indology moderators for allowing >such discussions. > >We will continue similar discussions on subjects such as varna system (and >will bring in politics because varna and other such divisive systems HAVE >politicized and polarized the society) on this list as long as they are >permitted by list moderators. > >I ask listmembers not to use personally dirisive language that would make >them look not so scholarly any more. > >Thanks for hearing. > >-Partha Banerjee *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sun Mar 7 17:14:41 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 18:14:41 +0100 Subject: Universal varnas? Message-ID: <161227047288.23782.4034587522033736713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Some get too worked up at any hint of a political undertone. Undertone? *Undertone*?!? >We have participated in discussions on this list on subjects such as: >Indian Children Born Abroad, and Deepa Mehta's 'Fire' and they were very >productive and educative I see no fault in discussing political and/or inflammable issues. What I object to is people using all manners of discussion as pretexts for political agitation. If anyone knows the answer to my original question (re. classical Hindu views on the universality of varna), I'd be glad to hear it. Regards, Martin Gansten From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Mar 8 04:41:18 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 23:41:18 -0500 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization; funerary pottery eviden] In-Reply-To: <19990308005546.17131.qmail@www0b.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227047302.23782.1390746943808007362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, The message quoted below was intended as a personal one for Dr Kalyanaraman, as you might have guessed from the personal style. I made a similar mistake a few days ago. I am sorry and apologize. MW. At 6:25 +0000 3/8/99, S.Kalyanaraman wrote: >Prof. Witzel wrote: >> At 21:21 +0000 3/4/99, S.Kalyanaraman wrote: >> >It has been noted in an earlier posting that the peacock connotes > ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From buciuman at DEUROCONSULT.RO Sun Mar 7 22:11:15 1999 From: buciuman at DEUROCONSULT.RO (Adrian Buciuman) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 00:11:15 +0200 Subject: info-request Message-ID: <161227047296.23782.1895758930069241242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Adrian Buciuman wrote: > Dear Sirs, > > I am working to an essay about the way in which India and Britain have > influenced each other in matters of culture and civilisation.This may > include literature, architecture and arts, movies ,law , > medicine , administration , religion and philosophy, outlooks ,privat > and every day life ,political > ideology , education, transport-railway, economy , high -society , > elite's cultural models-the Indian elite used to study in Britain etc. I > > am also interested in some general facts about multiculturatity and > the influences between the former parts of British Empire. If you know > some Internet useful > resources please e-mail me to buciuman at yahoo.com . > > Thank you, > > Adrian Buciuman From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Mar 8 06:25:46 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 06:25:46 +0000 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization; funerary pottery eviden] Message-ID: <161227047298.23782.6211211210321289841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel wrote: > At 21:21 +0000 3/4/99, S.Kalyanaraman wrote: > >It has been noted in an earlier posting that the peacock connotes ji_vanji_va> >(Pali), may the life live hereafter.> This is an interesting case which we might discuss later.... It involves > the Munda word for peacock *mara'k/mara "cryer > peacock", later Sanskrit> maara (and Pali etc) 'death, God Death', the Munda peacock symbol = death,> and teh Cemetary H peacock pictures on urns with cremated bodies.> This may be a very old concept... But certainty is another matter.> I hope we can have a useful discussion... Yours M. Witzel This is fascinating. I deeply respect the views of Prof. Witzel including the suggestions re: methodology. I look forward to further comments and leads from indology members, on OLD forms of lexemes related to the practices of interning post-cremation ashes in a pot... I suppose the point is that if there are images such as the peacock, the blackbuck, fishes, wavy lines and trefoil which recur on funerary pottery, in a very extensive area, the OLD words associated with these images (assume logography!) should have some nexus with death or associated cultural practices... If ALL these images are relatable to this 'semantic cluster' (say, cremation), the probability of their being related to an OLD form, of say, a substratum language such as Munda or Sanskrit, will become higher... I would appreciate comments on the comparative etyma in DEDR 4642: mayu_ra = peacock (Skt.); cf. CDIAL 9865; man~n~ai, mayil (Ta.); mi_ril (Kond.a); med.u, melu (Kui), in comparison with the Munda word 'mara'k... The search is to identify such words (and of course, their OLDER forms, subject to the methodological rigor) to get a possible lead on the language problem which has hindered our deeper understanding of the Harappan culture... Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Mon Mar 8 01:31:00 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 06:31:00 +0500 Subject: Universal varnas? In-Reply-To: <17144159311051@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227047300.23782.8851750307105961847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:14 PM 3/7/99 +0100, you wrote: >If anyone knows the answer to my original question (re. classical Hindu >views on the universality of varna), I'd be glad to hear it. > >Regards, >Martin Gansten > > This is something I posted in June last year and there was some discussion which you can lokup in the archives. regards, sarma. <> From WIKNER at NACDH4.NAC.AC.ZA Mon Mar 8 06:35:08 1999 From: WIKNER at NACDH4.NAC.AC.ZA (Charles Wikner) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 08:35:08 +0200 Subject: Ref. check verse 6.41 Bhagavad Gita Message-ID: <161227047305.23782.201262410995638609.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 05 Mar 1999, John Smith wrote: > It's not so much a question of authority as of usage. (I am here going to > use "pure" Harvard-Kyoto ASCII: "M" means anusvara, "&" means > candrabindu.) Whitney, for instance, notes that the normal MS usages are > "trIMlokAn" or "trI&llokAn", and suggests that a "better" usage would be > "trI&l lokAn". (Grammar, 206a.) He also states that, "according to the > Hindu grammarians", final *m* before l- becomes a nasalised "l", in > exactly the same way as happens to final -n (71, 206, 213d) -- so that the > use of anusvara for -n is "just as reasonabl[e]" as for -m. Thanks very much for the explanation and references. While accepting the _fact_ of anusvAra usage for -n in MS, I question Whitney's comment that it is "just as reasonabl[e]". For the tradition that makes the anusvAra substitution before a semivowel there would be no difference in pronunciation, but for those that do not make the substitution (as M-W dictionary) such anusvAra usage would be incorrect according to Panini (-n --> &l necessarily by torli, but -m --> &l optionally by vA padAntasya). Of course, which is more "correct" depends whether MS usage or Panini is taken as more authoritative. (And I'm not getting into that argument!) > > I see no objection to taking puNyakRtAn as accusative plural > > of bahuvrIhi puNyakRta: worlds prepared for the meritorious/ > > created by merit (as dvaita/advaita interpretations). > > I presume you mean tatpuruSa, not bahuvrIhi. Oops! Thanks for the correction. In the light of Whitney's observation, and Madhav Deshpande's expansion on the topic (thanks for that!), puNyakRtAn seems more likely than puNyakRtAm. Regards, Charles. From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Mon Mar 8 14:59:28 1999 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 08:59:28 -0600 Subject: [ADMIN] Policy on frequent/voluminous postings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047318.23782.12171847071411767377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik: Thank you. This is an excellent, and reasonable suggestion. Perhaps even the companies who employ the more prolific posters on this list will be grateful upon seeing a sudden increase in productivity from some of their employees . . . ;-) Thank you for persistently endeavoring preserving the flavor of the long-standing and venerable institution of of INDOLOGY at . I am sorry that the current state of professionalism, etiquette, and discipline among some on the list has now formally impinged upon your own time. The generous contributions you've made to Indological studies worldwide through this forum and your website deserves higher returns than having to police playgound bullies. jr On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > Okay: this is what I'm doing. I am simply going to attack the problem of > volume. Each month I shall draw up two checklists. One of those who > posted the highest number of messages, and of those who posted the longest > messages. I'll take the worst sinners in each category (commonly the top > ten), and email a warning to them about their over-exposure on the list. > If someone gets three of these Warning messages in a row, I shall cancel > their INDOLOGY membership. From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Mon Mar 8 09:36:24 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 09:36:24 +0000 Subject: Ref. check verse 6.41 Bhagavad Gita In-Reply-To: <01J8KXQ2YBXU8WWE9J@nacdh4.nac.ac.za> Message-ID: <161227047311.23782.6968381732453572934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Charles Wikner wrote: > ... > In the light of Whitney's observation, and Madhav Deshpande's > expansion on the topic (thanks for that!), puNyakRtAn seems > more likely than puNyakRtAm. I disagree. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From mgansten at SBBS.SE Mon Mar 8 09:07:35 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 10:07:35 +0100 Subject: Universal varnas? Message-ID: <161227047307.23782.6982074977185891990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >This is something I posted in June last year and there was some discussion >which you can lokup in the archives. Thank you. But what I really wanted to know was whether the *four-varna system* was thought by any classical/ancient authors to be universal in human societies -- i.e., a *fact* everywhere, and not just an ideal (to which non-Hindus failed to live up). Regards, Martin Gansten From martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Mon Mar 8 09:23:21 1999 From: martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Martin Bemmann) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 10:23:21 +0100 Subject: new publication Message-ID: <161227047309.23782.15220513622848809289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I would like to draw your attention to our recent publication on rock carvings and inscriptions from the upper Indus valley in the Northern Areas of Pakistan: Die Felsbildstation Hodar by Ditte Bandini-K?nig, with contrib. by G?rard Fussman, Harald Hauptmann, Oskar von Hin?ber, Thomas O. H?llmann, Ruth Schmelzer and Hellmut V?lk Verlag Phillipp von Zabern, Mainz 1999 (Materialien zur Archaeologie der Nordgebiete Pakistans 3), ISBN 3-8053-2560-6, price 198,- DM Contents: Vorwort Einleitung Beschreibung des Materials by Ditte Bandini-K?nig Zu den Brahmi-Inschriften by Oskar von Hin?ber Les monuments bouddhiques de Hodar by G?rard Fussman Die H?hensiedlung Kino Kot by Harald Hauptmann Exkurs: Drachendarstellungen im alten China by Thomas O. H?llmann Morphologische Landschaftsbeschreibung um Hodar by Ruth Schmelzer and Hellmut V?lk Versuch einer Chronik der Talschaft Hodar by Ditte Bandini-K?nig Technische Erl?uterungen zu Katalog und Tafeln, Definitionen, Katalog Abk?rzungsverzeichnis, Bibiographie, Abbildungsnachweis, Indices, Tafeln, Karten Urdu-version of the preface, introduction, description of the carvings and the resuming (A. M. Tahir) From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Mar 8 21:07:23 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 13:07:23 -0800 Subject: Advaita-Chandran Message-ID: <161227047322.23782.6834569301716591597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Srisha Rao writes : >I don't think you understand; >Dr. Hebbar's point was that Buddhism had*already disappeared* by the time of Shankara's advent (or >coming of age),and that thus he had nothing to do with the same. This of course is notconnected to >whether his view was logically consistent or otherwise; thematter is decidable merely based on historical >esearch, and more than onescholar has concluded on the basis of such that Buddhism was eithercompletely >gone, or otherwise on its last legs and destined to lapse, bythe time Shankara came around. If you disagree >, then the proper thing todo would be to do a deconstructive analysis of the historical research which has >gone into providing this conclusion, and to suggest or prove a different one. Merely asserting the beauty >or otherwise of Shankara'ssystem does not provide a satisfactory answer.=20> > AFAIK, Buddhism existed in BhArath nearly till 1000 AD. There?s historical evidence of the philosophical development of the Madhyamaka and the YogAcAra till that time. Shankara is supposed to have existed in the 6th century AD. Historically he?s also supposed to have been a contemporary of KumArilla Bhatta. And since the latter is notorious for his crusade against the Bauddhas, it makes no sense to say Buddhism was already dead by the time of Shankara. And nearly four centuries after KumArilla we have Madhyamaka works heavily criticizing the Karma MimAmsa. Actually what I mentioned above is the common view of historians and philosophers (Das Gupta, Radhakrishnan, TRV Murti, Vidhyabhusan etc). So I?d request You to furnish references for your claims. And with regard to the rest of your questions on Advaitam, please first answer the question of the Buddha which I?d posted on the original mail : The whole universe that we know is a system of relations : we know nothing that is or can be unrelated. How can that which depends on nothing and is related to nothing produce things which are related to one another and depend for their existence upon one another? If you answer this, I would indeed be convinced of the logical basis of our further arguments. If not, there?s no point in carrying this any further. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 8 13:53:47 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 13:53:47 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN] Policy on frequent/voluminous postings Message-ID: <161227047316.23782.11984605408962107675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been trying to think of a way to approach some of the perceived problems of the INDOLOGY list in a way which is fair and which does not involve me personally in an unbearable workload (as active moderation would do). This is what I have come up with. It is altogether easier to deal with these issues using quantitative rather than qualitative methods. I.e., I'm not (usually) prepeared to get into silly arguments about who is right, who is rude, and so forth. I would prefer to allow an open discussion amongst adults, and rely on the membership to obey the standard rules of Netiquette and universal politeness. I know this doesn't always happen, but perhaps we can all jointly try to nudge the occasional playground bullies into better behaviour by example, rather than by fiat. Okay: this is what I'm doing. I am simply going to attack the problem of volume. Each month I shall draw up two checklists. One of those who posted the highest number of messages, and of those who posted the longest messages. I'll take the worst sinners in each category (commonly the top ten), and email a warning to them about their over-exposure on the list. If someone gets three of these Warning messages in a row, I shall cancel their INDOLOGY membership. I hope this policy will be taken in the spirit in which it is intended: as a way of improving the INDOLOGY list experience for most members, in a non-judgemental manner. Best wishes, Dominik Wujastyk, Founder, INDOLOGY list. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/library London NW1 2BE, England. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Mar 8 15:17:53 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 15:17:53 +0000 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization; funerary pottery eviden]] Message-ID: <161227047314.23782.9043089708679018363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel wrote: > Dear members, > The message quoted below was intended as a personal one for Dr > Kalyanaraman, as you might have guessed from the personal style. > It will be a privilege indeed to have the benefit of guidance from members of the indology group on peacocks, fishes, trefoils and antelopes and their association with cremation/ashes... As an exercise in reconstructing comparative grammar ca. 2000/3000 BC of the Harappan linguistic area, I hope indology members will enlighten further on the following: Tulu: mair, Ma. Ta.: mayil (Tamil: payilpu_n~co_lai mayiler..unta_lavum--Pur_na_. 116); Tamil: mayilam, mayir_pi_li = peacock feather; mayilai = fish; ash colour, grey. J.Bloch saw the older lexeme to be Dravidian (BSL 76,16); J. Przyluski saw it as Austro-as. (BSL 79,100); Morgensteierne noted Savara ma_ra_ = peacock; HW Bailey (BSOAS xx 59, IL 21,18) noted a link with Khot. mura_sa as orig. 'Indo-ir. colour word'... [loc. cit. CDIAL 9865]. Let me cite some compounds in Santali: pincar marak = peacock; matu marak = peahen; marak rak = peacock crow; marak t.ikli = the disc on the tail feathers of the peacock; korkot. marak = common peafowl. CDIAL 9865 notes: OAw. mam.ju_ra, mora; Nepali. mujur; Pkt. mau_la, mau_ra; Pali. mo_ra Would it be possible to predict the older forms of this lexeme, reconciling the Drav., IA and Munda streams? The homonym, mara = world of death (AitUp.); maraka = epidemic (Skt.)may explain the depiction of the pictorial on a funerary pot, together with the homonym earlier observed: ji_vanji_vaka = peacock, cry of a peacock (Pali). My contention was that another etymon related to the blackbuck antelope (also depicted on funerary pots), s'am.bhara (or similar older form) seems also to be related to the world of death since a homonym is semant. 'remembrance', 'vow or religious observance'... When archaeologists unearth artefacts with emphatic pictorials, adding some 'sound bites' (or semantic clusters) to them may help throw some light leading to a possible resolution of the language enigma? Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 8 16:37:57 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 16:37:57 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN] multiple identities/posters/fights (was Re: Personal attacks on the list) In-Reply-To: <199903011034.LAA01286@vega.inec.cz> Message-ID: <161227047320.23782.15601723411943554659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have thought about the issue which was raised by some members at the end of Feb and the beginning of March, concerning the possibility that several posters apparently from within Lockheed Martin might be spoofing by one person. Or that there is some cabal at work, masquerading as separate, disinterested individuals. This was connected to Tamil/Sanskrit atagonisms, in both directions. I cannot see any obvious way to solve the question of spoofing conclusively. I have read the messages written under the different names mentioned (Ganesan, Fernandez, Mahruesan, Williams, etc.). Using the very best text-critical tool available to me, namely my nose, these *appear* to me to be different individuals. The accusations about spoofing seem to be just part of a more general feeling among some INDOLOGY members that certain other members, who hold differing views, are not just wrong but also malicious. I would urge members who feel hotly passionate about *any* topic NOT TO WRITE TO INDOLOGY. While a quality of committment to certain ideas is laudable in a scholar, dispassion is also vital if knowledge is to progress. It is unacceptable for contributors to INDOLOGY to call each other names, make imputations about others' intellectual abilities, or generally be abusive or even unpleasant. Standards here are *much* higher than elsewhere on the Net. We expect exquisite use of language, good taste, and compassion. All qualities shown in abundance in many of the materials we study. I will have little compunction in cancelling the membership of anyone who is, in my judgement, persistently insulting or aggressive. To return to the multiple-identity issue, I hope that the catholicity and goodwill of the INDOLOGY list is sufficient that such tricks are simply unnecessary. Best wishes, Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/library London NW1 2BE, England. From shrao at IA.NET Mon Mar 8 22:47:40 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 16:47:40 -0600 Subject: Advaita-Chandran In-Reply-To: <19990308210724.17410.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047327.23782.18063939485774246048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, nanda chandran wrote: > And with regard to the rest of your questions on Advaitam, please first > answer the question of the Buddha which I?d posted on the original mail Perhaps I'm as guilty in this matter as anyone else, but it may be best if this thread (or at least the purely polemical part of it) is best carried on elsewhere, else it may try the patience of those who value this list for mainstream Indology. "The INDOLOGY forum exists for the use of advanced, university-level scholars of classical INDOLOGY, that is to say people who regularly read the scholarly journals of the subject, attend conferences, perhaps teach in university departments, and participate in the subject as an academic discipline," ityukteH. "If this description does not fit you, you are welcome to lurk, but please try not to intervene, especially not with forceful language on a topic you feel passionate about," iti cha. Carrying out a nyAyAmR^ita-advaitasiddhi type debate here is not well advised (although I will be happy to answer you and carry on as long as you wish, if we can carry this discussion into another, perhaps more appropriate forum). Regards, Shrisha Rao From biernack at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 8 22:50:03 1999 From: biernack at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 17:50:03 -0500 Subject: [ADMIN] Policy on frequent/voluminous postings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047329.23782.8001932616783800890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, I think your strategy sounds great. Having said this, on a philosophical note I couldn't help but be intrigued by what struck me as the latently oedipal structure of this strategy ("get the guy on the top of the mountain" game we played as children.) -- don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing, just theoretically interested in how paradigms manifest politically (and by the way yours is certainly a difficult job, and you've been amazingly good at it) Just by way of contrast, another strategy might be (what I perhaps erroneously would label a Swedish approach) to give everyone a quota of so many words/ bits per month and anyone who exceeds would be required to sit out the next month. This isn't actually a suggestion, I, not by nature an offender, don't really have a clue as how to get others to lower their volume. It's just a way of looking at the issue from another angle. all the best, Loriliai Biernacki University of Pennsylvania According to Dominik Wujastyk: > > I have been trying to think of a way to approach some of the perceived > problems of the INDOLOGY list in a way which is fair and which does not > involve me personally in an unbearable workload (as active moderation > would do). > > This is what I have come up with. > > It is altogether easier to deal with these issues using quantitative > rather than qualitative methods. I.e., I'm not (usually) prepeared to get > into silly arguments about who is right, who is rude, and so forth. I > would prefer to allow an open discussion amongst adults, and rely on the > membership to obey the standard rules of Netiquette and universal > politeness. I know this doesn't always happen, but perhaps we can all > jointly try to nudge the occasional playground bullies into better > behaviour by example, rather than by fiat. > > Okay: this is what I'm doing. I am simply going to attack the problem of > volume. Each month I shall draw up two checklists. One of those who > posted the highest number of messages, and of those who posted the longest > messages. I'll take the worst sinners in each category (commonly the top > ten), and email a warning to them about their over-exposure on the list. > If someone gets three of these Warning messages in a row, I shall cancel > their INDOLOGY membership. > > I hope this policy will be taken in the spirit in which it is intended: as > a way of improving the INDOLOGY list experience for most members, in a > non-judgemental manner. > > Best wishes, > Dominik Wujastyk, > Founder, INDOLOGY list. > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 > Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ > the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk > Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/library > London NW1 2BE, England. > From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Mar 9 01:33:25 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 20:33:25 -0500 Subject: Clarification on pu.nyak.rtaa.m/n lokaan In-Reply-To: <01J8KXQ2YBXU8WWE9J@nacdh4.nac.ac.za> Message-ID: <161227047333.23782.12787605988426316750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Charles Wikner writes: >In the light of Whitney's observation, and Madhav Deshpande's >expansion on the topic (thanks for that!), puNyakRtAn seems >more likely than puNyakRtAm. Let us be clear that the sequences pu.nyak.rtaan lokaan and pu.nyak.rtaa.m lokaan can both lead to a shared sandhi form with a nasal ~l. Therefore, phonologically, these readings can remain ambiguous. In G.A. Jacob's concordance of the Upanishads (p. 551), the reading with anusvaara is listed as a form of the word pu.nyak.rt, while the form with the nasal ~l is listed as a form of the word pu.nyak.rta. While an explanation from the words pu.nyak.rtaan lokaan may derive some support from pu.nyajito loka.h found in the Chaandogya-U (8.1.6), the explanation with pu.nyak.rtaam (gen of pu.nyak.rt) can derive support from the BG (18.71) lokaan praapnuyaat pu.nyakarma.naam. I don't want to insist either way, but would like to refer to a basic phonological ambiguity. Best, Madhav Deshpande From D.Plukker at INTER.NL.NET Mon Mar 8 21:24:21 1999 From: D.Plukker at INTER.NL.NET (Dick Plukker) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 22:24:21 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] Policy on frequent/voluminous postings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047325.23782.566764648688044128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, Just to let you know that I too fully support your new policy. At 13:53 8-3-1999 +0000, you wrote: >I have been trying to think of a way to approach some of the perceived >problems of the INDOLOGY list in a way which is fair and which does not >involve me personally in an unbearable workload (as active moderation >would do). > > ... > >I hope this policy will be taken in the spirit in which it is intended: as >a way of improving the INDOLOGY list experience for most members, in a >non-judgemental manner. > >... >Dominik Wujastyk, >... Dick Plukker India Instituut, Amsterdam From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Tue Mar 9 01:16:02 1999 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 02:16:02 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] Policy on frequent/voluminous postings Message-ID: <161227047331.23782.17232706462986258167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik. dear Listmembers, after some silence I must agree: > Dear Dominik, > > Just to let you know that I too fully support your new policy. Yours Tobias *********************************** Mr. T. Grote-Beverborg Institute of Indology and Tamil Studies (IITS) http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/index.e.html ++49.0177.6848202 grotebev at uni-koeln.de From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 9 12:46:29 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 04:46:29 -0800 Subject: [ADMIN] Policy on frequent/voluminous postings Message-ID: <161227047335.23782.14376800084579869335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I too fully support Dr. D. Wujastyk's proposal. Kind regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Mar 9 13:55:24 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 08:55:24 -0500 Subject: RGreetings In-Reply-To: <36E47652.F6FEEF2D@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <161227047337.23782.3325304840855009001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lieber Herr Grote-Beverborg, schoen Sie hier in Indology wiederzutreffen. Ich wollte schon des laengeren schreiben, mit einigen Fragen oder Bitten zu Ihrem MW- Lexicon, muss aber meine Notizen nachsehen. Wird das so bleiben oder haben Sie eventuell Aenderungen vorgesenen? NB> Ich werde wohl imMay/fruehen Juni auf dem Weg von Japnan in Hawaii Station machen, falls Sie da sind... Herzliche Gruesse, Ihr MW. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Tue Mar 9 14:33:26 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 09:33:26 -0500 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization; funerary pottery eviden] Message-ID: <161227047339.23782.13992858103539762213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [deleted] *I would appreciate comments on the comparative etyma in DEDR 4642: mayu_r= *a =3D *peacock (Skt.); cf. CDIAL 9865; man~n~ai, mayil (Ta.); mi_ril (Kond.a); m= *ed.u, *melu (Kui), in comparison with the Munda word 'mara'k... * *The search is to identify such words (and of course, their OLDER forms, *subject to the methodological rigor) to get a possible lead on the langua= *ge *problem which has hindered our deeper understanding of the Harappan cultu= *re... * In Tamil the word 'maya-' means 'transcend (or cross from one region to another; cross from one state to another). 'mayakkam' means unconcious. The sense is 'crossing to another state'. The same word 'mayakkam' means '*transistion* from one to another' and hence has the meaning of 'confusion', since the 'state seems to have both features'. In Tamil literature the words 'thiNai mayakkam' etc. are used. The verb 'mayaGku' means 'to get deluded; to swoon'. Tamil word 'maya-' and its derivatives will fit well the concept of 'trasport into another world'. The words 'mara' or 'maRa', 'mari', 'maDi' in Tamil also would fit well with the concept of 'dead'. Tamil word 'maay' means 'dead, disappear'. C.R.Selvakumar *Regards, *Dr. S. Kalyanaraman * *____________________________________________________________________ *More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at htt= *p://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail * From sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Mar 9 18:56:44 1999 From: sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Naseem Hines) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 10:56:44 -0800 Subject: Guru In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047348.23782.7397117480956913158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GururBrahma, gururaVisnu Gururdevo maheshwaro GururSakshat param brahma, tasmai sri guruve namah. (Please excuse improper transliteration but this is the Samskrta skija that came to mind. From avillarr at IS.DAL.CA Tue Mar 9 15:21:52 1999 From: avillarr at IS.DAL.CA (Alfredo Villarroel) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 11:21:52 -0400 Subject: Guru In-Reply-To: <199903080000.UAA84972@is.dal.ca> Message-ID: <161227047341.23782.7939883891237455063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I hear my Sanskrit teacher once mentioned that guru is someone without questions, in the sense that a guru have understood everything. Does anyone knows a text where the concept of guru is so defined ? Regards, A. Villarroel From shrao at IA.NET Tue Mar 9 18:28:29 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 12:28:29 -0600 Subject: Guru In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047346.23782.15537561167575687926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Alfredo Villarroel wrote: > Dear List, > > I hear my Sanskrit teacher once mentioned that guru is someone > without questions, in the sense that a guru have understood everything. > Does anyone knows a text where the concept of guru is so defined ? `asaMshayaH saMshayachchhid.h gururukto manIshhibhiH' -- one who does not have a doubt [in himself/herself], and removes doubts [in others] is considered a Guru. The complete statement quote from which this is drawn (from the mahAbhArata-tAtparya-nirNaya), including the physical characteristics of an ideal Guru, is as follows: shhaNNavatyaN^gulo yastu nyagrodhaparimaNDalaH | saptapAdashchaturhasto dvAtriMshallaxaNairyutaH || asaMshayaH saMshayachchhid.h gururukto manIshhibhiH || tasmAd.h brahmA gururmukhyaH sarveshhAmeva sarvadA | anye.api svAtmano mukhyAH kramAd.h gurava IritAH || This is actually a quote from some Purana, but I don't know which or where. Regards, Shrisha Rao > A. Villarroel From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 9 22:45:48 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 14:45:48 -0800 Subject: Advaita-Chandran Message-ID: <161227047356.23782.14805274952362878968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Perhaps I'm as guilty in this matter as anyone else, but it may be best ifthis thread (or at least the purely polemical >part of it) is best carriedon elsewhere, else it may try the patience of those who value this listfor mainstream >Indology. "The INDOLOGY forum exists for the use ofadvanced, university-level scholars of classical >INDOLOGY, that is to saypeople who regularly read the scholarly journals of the subject, attendconferences, >perhaps teach in university departments, and participate inthe subject as an academic discipline," ityukteH. "If this >descriptiondoes not fit you, you are welcome to lurk, but please try not tointervene, especially not with forceful >language on a topic you feelpassionate about," iti cha. Carrying out a nyAyAmR^ita-advaitasiddhi typedebate here >is not well advised (although I will be happy to answer youand carry on as long as you wish, if we can carry this >discussion intoanother, perhaps more appropriate forum). The topic under discussion would definitely fall under the scope of Indology. Infact, this thread is an offshoot of one such thread, which the other scholars were discussing. It?s true that I?m not a scholar. But I can supplement my position with material from standard works on the subject. And from your posting I see that you?re pretty knowledgeable yourself. Though it?s true that I?m passionate about Advaitam, I would not let my passion interfere with my commonsense and judgement. And I respect all traditions of Indian philosophy and the respective AchAryAs. I?m also very interested in understanding how the theists defend their position. So if the discussion is held in a spirit of reason, I see no problem in carrying this discussion further. Ofcourse, if the list moderator has no objections. Rgds, Nanda Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bvi at AFN.ORG Tue Mar 9 21:39:19 1999 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 16:39:19 -0500 Subject: Indus script Message-ID: <161227047358.23782.14198802087917219482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a book titled PROTO-HISTORIC POTTERY OF INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION, the author, Sudha Satyawadi states: "As regards the Indus Script, Mr. Verma of Bihar (Times of India, July 5, 1992) has done pioneering work. He says that the Indus script is still alive, and finds frequent mention in the languages of the santhal (tribal of Bihar) particularly in their festivals and prayers. Mr. Verma claims to be able to decipher all the intact Mohenjodaro inscriptions. The words include Sanskrit, Hebrew, Arabic, and Persian, though many words were unfamiliar to him. Now the traces of the migration from the Indus Valley to the other present settlement in South Bihar and archaeological evidence of food habits of the period have been found in several places, but have still to be unearthed in the area inhabited by the santhal." Do any of you have any further insight regarding the statements above in terms of archaeological evidence in favor of them or opposing them? Any references? Thank you for your kind attention. Chris Beetle From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Tue Mar 9 17:49:19 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 17:49:19 +0000 Subject: Mahabharata: revised electronic text Message-ID: <161227047344.23782.4432334934746192158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many people will be aware that an electronic text of the Mahabharata has been available from my network server for several years. That text was based on the version typed up by Prof. Muneo Tokunaga, which he generously made accessible via the Internet. After eighteen months of detailed revision by a team of four assistants at the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute in Pune (the publisher of the Critical Edition on which the electronic text is based), a much improved version of the text is now ready. It may be obtained from the website http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk (follow the "Mahabharata" link). To gain access to the revised text it is necessary to register as a user: once you have done so you will be able to download the text in any one of five encodings (CSX+, CSX, Norman, Harvard-Kyoto ASCII, ISCII) and in formats suitable for PCs, Macintoshes and Unix boxes. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From shrao at IA.NET Wed Mar 10 00:11:23 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 18:11:23 -0600 Subject: Madhva and textual sources (was Re: Advaita-Chandran) In-Reply-To: <01be6a84$dba05de0$a3dbaccf@ramakris> Message-ID: <161227047363.23782.2334730573370290896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote: > Why use phrases like "calling your bluff"? I do not know Ramadas from > Adam and I have no need or desire to mislead him. That's fine, then. We'll both try to stick to facts that we can acknowledge between us. > The question of > whether the bhAgavata refers to the devI bhAgavata or the vaishhNava > bhAgavata has been a much discussed point among Indian scholars for > many centuries now. H.H.Wilson says that the vaishhNava camp quotes > one of Madhwas statements that he has seen 8 commentaries on the That's strange. B.N.K. Sharma, whom I'd definitely consider one of the "Vaishnava camp," and a Maadhva to boot, says no such thing in his 1932 BORI paper on the dating of the Bhagavata Purana; to the best of my knowledge, neither he nor any other Maadhva says such a thing at any time. In my opinion, what Madhva claimed to have seen would in any event be poor evidence given that Madhva's sources are not universally acknowledged. It's been a while since I read Dr. Sharma's paper, but as I recall, his main arguments were that the "argumentum ad ignorantium" from the lack of reference to the Purana in Shankara's works is invalid, and that Abhinavagupta (10th cent., I believe) quotes the Purana but not the devI-bhAgavata, although it would be clearly to his advantage to do otherwise given his own philosophical leanings. Some question exists about whether the references to turIya, etc., in the Bhagavata are copied from the mANDUkya-kArikA (which would place the Bhagavata after Gaudapada, reliably known to have lived no later than the 5th cent. CE) or otherwise, but as the relevant verses can be determined to be part of the Upanishad itself which obviously preceded Gaudapada by an unknown amount, nothing is known about the date of the Bhagavata in this manner. The commentary (by an author of unknown name and antiquity) on the Lakshmi-Tantra (an extant Pancharatra text) also says that the quartet of turIya, etc., in the mANDUkya refer to the four vyUha-expansions of Vishnu, which tho not exactly what Madhva says about them, does give a historical background to show that the Vaishnava camp has traditionally considered names to refer to forms of Vishnu. I have heard that there are controversial references to the Bhagavata Purana in a work claimed to be Ramanuja's (but not accepted so universally), and in an Alwar work, but I don't know the references to these offhand, though it can't be hard to find them. > bhAgavata to prove its antiquity. He adds "Now amongst these is one by > the monkey Hanuman; and although a Hindu disputant may believe in the > reality of such a composition, yet we may receive its citation as a > proof that Madhwa was not very scrupulous in the verification of his > authorities" (preface to vishhNupurANa, page 30). Now Wilson may be > wrong, but if my recollection is right I told Ramadas that some of my If Wilson didn't give an actual quote where Madhva says this, I'd conclude more about his lack of verification than about Madhva's. Anyway, as far as I know, Madhva has claimed that there is a lot of exegetical literature handed down by tradition along with the Vedas, etc., a key reference is Br. U.'s (II.4-10 -- this is from memory, so needs verification) reference to `sUtrANi, anuvyAkhyAnAni, vyAkhyAnAni', etc., which in Madhva's commentary are references to the Brahma Suutra, the Brahma Tarka, and the various Pancharatric or other exegetical literature which he quotes from profusely. This literature however seems to cover more than just the Bhagavata alone. I have independently verified that some of the extant Pancharatra literature does tend to favor Madhva's theories more than any other's, and that some sources he alone uses (such as `mahA-samhitA') are extant (although not enough effort has been made, in my opinion, to discover these and trace his quotes). > sources were secondary and unverified. If Wilson is completely > incorrect, I am willing to update my knowledge. As I said, it is to be hoped that Wilson gave some references in connection with his assertion, or some hint where such could be found. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Rama From ramakris at EROLS.COM Tue Mar 9 23:30:46 1999 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 18:30:46 -0500 Subject: Madhva and textual sources (was Re: Advaita-Chandran) Message-ID: <161227047361.23782.8315581084607852643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shrisha Rao wrote: >> shAstra-s written prior to him and being written now, he'll also quote >> from shAstras which will be written in the future!!! >And where exactly did Madhva say this? Let's be specific, now. I have mailed this gentleman and he told me that he'ld mail me the passage when he gets some time. I'll address some of your other comments after I receive that. >> bhAgavata purANa, including one by hanumAn! The first example of >> anyone quoting hanumAn as an exegite!! >All right, I'm calling your bluff. Where did Madhva say that? Madhva did Why use phrases like "calling your bluff"? I do not know Ramadas from Adam and I have no need or desire to mislead him. The question of whether the bhAgavata refers to the devI bhAgavata or the vaishhNava bhAgavata has been a much discussed point among Indian scholars for many centuries now. H.H.Wilson says that the vaishhNava camp quotes one of Madhwas statements that he has seen 8 commentaries on the bhAgavata to prove its antiquity. He adds "Now amongst these is one by the monkey Hanuman; and although a Hindu disputant may believe in the reality of such a composition, yet we may receive its citation as a proof that Madhwa was not very scrupulous in the verification of his authorities" (preface to vishhNupurANa, page 30). Now Wilson may be wrong, but if my recollection is right I told Ramadas that some of my sources were secondary and unverified. If Wilson is completely incorrect, I am willing to update my knowledge. Rama From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Tue Mar 9 19:20:54 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 19:20:54 +0000 Subject: Electronic edition of MahAbhArata In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19990309194434.0069303c@mail.rz.uni-sb.de> Message-ID: <161227047351.23782.6363588687748938245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Narahari Rao wrote: > Your wrote to Indology list: > > I am intersted in down-loading. Will you please let me know how to > register. Perhaps this information may be useful to many others in > Indology list. So, perhaps you can reply through the list. I am sorry if my message was not completely clear. Connect to the website http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk and follow the "Mahabharata" link. This allows you to register if you are a new user, and to download text once you have registered. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From unity5 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Wed Mar 10 04:08:14 1999 From: unity5 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (unity5) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 20:08:14 -0800 Subject: [ADMIN] Policy on frequent/voluminous postings Message-ID: <161227047372.23782.12663842013862612464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I too thought it a good idea on first reading. This is my first time to post, and now I feel reluctant to post at all. I would not want to over-post and take the risk of being #1 on the list. I am a moderator on another list. There are actually 3 of us who moderate the list. This method works well and spreads the duties out. brenda -----Original Message----- From: Ramadas To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Policy on frequent/voluminous postings >On first reading I thought it sounded OK, but then I began to wonder at the >proposed outcome. It seems to me that whenever a subject which creates a >great amount of dialogue comes up, it is mainly two or three who jump in >wholeheartedly. If a restriction is placed on these two or three >protagonists, then I fear that the quality of debate will fall off and there >will not be very much food for thought flowing through. > >Kindest regards >Ramadas >dasa at ozemail.com.au > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dominik Wujastyk >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999 12:57 >Subject: [ADMIN] Policy on frequent/voluminous postings > >[..] From unity5 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Wed Mar 10 04:19:26 1999 From: unity5 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (unity5) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 20:19:26 -0800 Subject: Guru Message-ID: <161227047374.23782.15447464038678578198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a good description of the qualities of a Guru in the Guru Gita. It is a portion of the Skanda Purana. Brenda From nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR Tue Mar 9 21:13:12 1999 From: nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR (Jadranka Schauer) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 22:13:12 +0100 Subject: Guru Message-ID: <161227047353.23782.13173972218509812649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> These quotes are from the purports of His Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam: ?If one is sincere he can find the guru and learn everything. One should take lessons from the guru and find out the goal of life. Maharaja Satyavrata, therefore, shows us the way of the mahajana. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah. One should surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead (dasavatara) and learn from Him about the spiritual world and the goal of life. ... You must approach a person who is learned. You must find such a person, a guru, and surrender to him. Then question him, and whatever answers you get from him you must accept. That is the process for understanding God. You must first find the guru; then you must satisfy him by service and by surrendering unto him. The guru will explain everything. Krsna explains in Bhagavad-gita (4.34): ??????????????????????? tad viddhi pranipatena ????????????????????????? partprasnena sevaya ??????????????????????? upadeksyanti te jnanam ??????????????????????? jnaninas attva-darsinah ???? "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." ... The first process is that of surrender. We have to find an exalted person and willingly surrender before him. The sastras enjoin that before we take a guru we study him carefully to find out whether we can surrender to him. We should not accept a guru suddenly, out of fanaticism. That is very dangerous. The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit. That is the way a relationship is established between the guru and disciple. Everything is provided, but we must take up the process seriously. Then we can be trained to become a bona fide disciple. First we must find a bona fide guru, establish our relationship with him, and act accordingly. Then our life will be successful, for the guru can enlighten the sincere disciple who is in darkness. (c) 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust Your servant, Yashoda devi dasi Alfredo Villarroel wrote: > Dear List, > > ??????? I hear my Sanskrit teacher once mentioned that guru is someone > without questions, in the sense that a guru have understood everything. > Does anyone knows a text where the concept of guru is so defined ? > > Regards, > > A. Villarroel ? From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Wed Mar 10 03:23:22 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 22:23:22 -0500 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization; funerary pottery eviden Message-ID: <161227047368.23782.15962997909879725542.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the Tamil word 'mayar' (= exhaustion) is also relevant, along with other words such as 'mayakkam', 'maay' etc... Saint NammAzvAr says in the first song in tiruvAymozi, 'mayarvaRa matinalam', where the meaning for the expression 'mayarvu aRa' is more like 'without a doubt'. aRa meaning without. Another meaning for 'mayakkam' is also 'doubt'. The root sense of the words 'mayakkam' and 'mayarvu' meaning 'doubt' is that 'it is in the region in between the clearly known and the clearly unknown state'; 'half clear' is the root sense. Another Tamil word 'mayilai' means grey (or gray) since it is in between black and white. Thus the word 'maya-' will mean, in essence, 'in transition from one state to another'. mayaanam means graveyard; maayaavi means spirit (of a dead person) C.R.Selvakumar From dasa at OZEMAIL.COM.AU Tue Mar 9 22:45:49 1999 From: dasa at OZEMAIL.COM.AU (Ramadas) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 09:45:49 +1100 Subject: [ADMIN] Policy on frequent/voluminous postings Message-ID: <161227047365.23782.4864716975731264421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On first reading I thought it sounded OK, but then I began to wonder at the proposed outcome. It seems to me that whenever a subject which creates a great amount of dialogue comes up, it is mainly two or three who jump in wholeheartedly. If a restriction is placed on these two or three protagonists, then I fear that the quality of debate will fall off and there will not be very much food for thought flowing through. Kindest regards Ramadas dasa at ozemail.com.au -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999 12:57 Subject: [ADMIN] Policy on frequent/voluminous postings [..] From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Mar 10 16:12:52 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 11:12:52 -0500 Subject: Question? Message-ID: <161227047376.23782.10409596837624101820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is a question, especially for those who know the ancient Tamil literature. Harper's Dictionary of Hinduism (p. 80) makes the following statement: "Ancient Tamil tradition speaks of five Dravidian regions, viz., Andhra or Telugu and the Kanarese countries, the Maharashtra or Maratha provinces, and Gujarat." I would appreciate any help in tracing specific references in Tamil works to the inclusion of Maharashtra and Gujarat among the five Dravidian regions. Best, Madhav Deshpande From dasa at OZEMAIL.COM.AU Wed Mar 10 02:20:05 1999 From: dasa at OZEMAIL.COM.AU (Ramadas) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 13:20:05 +1100 Subject: Madhva and textual sources (was Re: Advaita-Chandran) Message-ID: <161227047370.23782.9401472193512395972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999 10:30 Subject: Madhva and textual sources (was Re: Advaita-Chandran) >Shrisha Rao wrote: [..] > >Why use phrases like "calling your bluff"? I do not know Ramadas from >Adam and I have no need or desire to mislead him. The question of [..] I was told that Adam is a long distant relative of mine ;-) [..] >authorities" (preface to vishhNupurANa, page 30). Now Wilson may be >wrong, but if my recollection is right I told Ramadas that some of my >sources were secondary and unverified. If Wilson is completely >incorrect, I am willing to update my knowledge. As far as some of your queries are concerned: * Is not the Parama Samhitaa a part of the Pancaraatra? Also, I have read that the Parama Samhitaa is/was published in the Gaekwad Oriental Series. * According to Dr B.N.K. Sharma. ''C.R. Krishna Rao has done a useful service in piecing together all the quotations from the Brahmatarka (a non-extant source) running to nearly 700 verses occurring in the various works of Madhva and arranging them under a few leading topics, and arguing a case for accepting the genuineness of the work.'' So, it would seem that if the Brahmatarka was not genuine, then why would Madhva go to the trouble of writing a work of at least 700 verses? Also, Trivikrama cited a pasage from the Brahmatarka in his Tattvapradiipa which is not quoted by Madhva in any of his works. Also, from reading History of Dvaita School of Vedanta, I read where Advaitaananda has quoted a verse from Brahmatarka in attempting to refute Madhva. * It is also hard to imagine Madhva going to all the trouble to write some 700+ verses to a work when he quotes from some 290 other works, as well as including Rg Veda, Upanishads, Mbh, smR^itis and so on, to back up his philosophy. Kindest regards Ramadas dasa at ozemail.com.au From zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Wed Mar 10 22:01:49 1999 From: zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Leonard Zwilling) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 16:01:49 -0600 Subject: Peacocks and Poison--one last time Message-ID: <161227047378.23782.4185526416358558813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Having put this query out some time ago and not having received any repsonses, I'd like to try one last time in the hope that perhaps a more recent arrival to the list might be able to help me out. In a Tibetan text I'm working with, "The Antidotal Peacock", which purports to be a translation from the Skt (which I doubt), peacocks are said to thrive on poisonous plants which they prefer for their food, and the ingestion of which is said to be the cause for the brilliance of their tail feathers. This theme of the poison ingesting peacock is found elsewhere in Tibetan literature, most significantly in Sakya Pandita's SubhASitaratnanidhi and, as R.A. Stein has written, that as Sakya Pandita was, among Tibetan scholars, the most steeped in Sanskritic learning, it is likely to be an Indian tradition. Is anyone familiar with this bit of peacock lore? From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Mar 10 21:20:04 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 16:20:04 -0500 Subject: Question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047380.23782.12825387300032781005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav, I think the phrasing in Harper's make it likely that there is a confusion (which I leave to Tamil specialists to clarify). It looks to me that the 5 famous *regions* (mountaineous. coastal, etc.) in Sangam poetry are intended. On the other hand, the listing of the 5 *countries* incl. Gujarat and Maharastra exactly fits the division of "southern" Brahmins (panca drAviDa) -- as opposed to the 5 northern groups (panca gauDa). The Gujarati and Maharastrian Brahmins as "Dravida!" There is a map in Schwartzberg's Historical Atlas. MW > "Ancient Tamil tradition speaks of five Dravidian regions, viz., Andhra or > Telugu and the Kanarese countries, the Maharashtra or Maratha provinces, > and Gujarat." ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU Thu Mar 11 13:12:08 1999 From: jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 08:12:08 -0500 Subject: Peacocks and Poison--one last time Message-ID: <161227047398.23782.9349478215631879194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is an extended passage in the Raajadharmaparvan of the MBh (12.120.4-16) which recommends various attributes and habits of the peacock as indications of the way a good king should act as he performs his duty of protecting his subjects. It starts like this, "Just as a peacock's tail has feathers of many colors, so should a king who knows the Law display many different forms--sharpness, deviousness, indomitability, truthfulness, and rectitude." [4] And zlokas like this are typical of the whole passage, "His words bland, his body smooth, a king endowed with Royal Splendor who is well versed in the Learned Traditions should always keep his plans secret, the way a peacock is mute in the autumn." [7] There are references to the peackock's attacking snakes and eating insects, and 11c might well refer to its eating flowers, but none to its eating poison. Jim Fitzgerald ======================================================================== James L. Fitzgerald jfitzge1 at utk.edu Religious Studies Phone: office: 423-974-6982; 423-974-2466; 423-690-9525 University of Tennessee home 423-539-2881 501 McClung Tower Fax: 423-974-0965 Knoxville, TN 37996-0450 From efeoci at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Mar 11 03:44:55 1999 From: efeoci at MD2.VSNL.NET.IN (efeoci) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 08:44:55 +0500 Subject: Release of new publications of the IFP Message-ID: <161227047383.23782.15715558586486321515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NEWLY RELEASED from the French Institute of Pondicherry, the Ecole Francaise d'Extreme-Orient and the International Institute for Asian Studies:--- Kar.na Mook.sam---Karna's Death: A play by Pukalentippulavar. Translation, Hanne M. de Bruin. Publications du departement d'Indologie 87. 1998. Introduction, Tamil transcription, English translation, glossary. Pp. xxxvi, 260. Price: Rs. 350. Postage extra. NEWLY RELEASED from the French Institute of Pondicherry and the Ecole Francaise d'Extreme-Orient:--- Anargharaaghavapa~ncikaa : The Commentary of Vi.s.nubha.t.ta on the Anargharaaghava of Muraari. 2 vols. Critical edition, Harinarayana Bhat B.R. Publications du departement d'Indologie 82. 1998. Volume I : The Commentary of Vi.s.nubha.t.ta. Pp.xlvi, 307. Volume II : The Anargharaaghava of Muraari as read by Vi.s.nubha.t.ta, notes, appendices. Pp. 322. Introduction, Sanskrit texts, notes, indices. Price: Rs. 800. Postage extra. The summaries of the two books are given below. These publications are distributed exclusively by: MOTILAL BANARSIDASS PUBLISHERS 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Delhi-110007 (India) Tel.# (011)-2911985; 2918335; 3974826; 2932747 Fax # (91)-(11)-2930689; 5797221 Email: mail at mlbd.com; mlbd at vsnl.com In case of any difficulty please contact: INSTITUT FRANCAIS DE PONDICHERY D?partement d'Indologie 11, St. Louis Street P.B. 33 Pondicherry-605 001 Tel: 0413-332504 Fax: 0413-335538 E-mail : efeoci at md2.vsnl.net.in; instfran at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in SUMMARY of Kar.na Mook.sam Kar.na Mook.sam contains the Tamil transcription and translation into English of the Mahaabhaarata story of Karna's life and his tragic death on the battlefield. The transcription is based on a performance of the play by the Po-n-nucaami Naa.taka Ma-n-ram from the village of Peru"nka.t.tuur near Kanchipuram. This theatre group is one of the hereditary representatives of Ka.t.taikkuuttu (or Terukkuuttu) -- an important traditional theatre genre in Tamil Nadu. The transcription and translation are preceded by an introduction in which the Ka.t.taikkuuttu tradition, its socio-historical context and form, as well as the performance context and content of Kar.na Mook.sam are described. In addition, the introduction includes a discussion on the difficulties encountered by the translator in transcribing and translating the play. These concern in particular the problem of how to represent a ``live'' oral text originating in a rural, non-Western cultural context in a written format that responds to current literary and academic conventions and tastes. SUMMARY of Anargharaaghavapa~ncikaa This book contains the first critical edition of Vi.s.nubha.t.ta's commentary Pa~ncikaa (composed between 1400 and 1450 AD) on Muraari's ninth-century drama Anargharaaghava. The commentary is exhaustive and erudite; it provides a thorough analysis of the structure of the play. The author Vi.s.nubha.t.ta was not only an insightful literary critic but also a grammarian of significance. His Pa~ncikaa is referred to in the grammatical treatise Prakriyaasarvasva (1616 AD) of Melputtur Naaraaya.na Bha.t.ta. As regards dramaturgy, Vi.s.nubha.t.ta supports the views of Si.mhabhuupaala, author of Rasaar.navasudhaakara (1381 AD), in particular with reference to sandhyantara-s and bhuu.sa.na-s. The Pa~ncikaa serves not only as a valuable tool for understanding the text of the Anargharaaghava, it also makes a substantial contribution to the study of dramaturgy. The introduction by the editor briefly surveys the plot of the Anargharaaghava and evaluates some of the available commentaries. It discusses the date and authorship of the Pa~ncikaa and assesses the contribution of the commentary to the study of dramatic literature. The text of the Anargharaaghava as read by Vi.s.nubha.t.ta is given separately in the second volume. This second volume also contains notes to the text of the Pa~ncikaa, indices and appendices. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Mar 11 14:42:13 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 09:42:13 -0500 Subject: Peacocks and Poison--one last time In-Reply-To: <57711.zwilling@facstaff.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227047395.23782.15248677208848112434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:01 -0600 3/10/99, Leonard Zwilling wrote: > peacocks are said to thrive on poisonous plants which they prefer for >their food * The theme is a old as the Rgveda, see RV 1.191.14 (a late, Atharva-like hymn full of non-Indo-Aryan loan words), in the context of charms against poisons: 1.191.11 "this little bird (zakuntikA) has eaten you (the poison).... 1.191.14: "the three times seven pea-hens, the 3 x 7 unmarried sisters, these (females) have taken away your poison... " tri'H sa'pta mayUryA`H, sapta' sva'sAro agru'vaH / tA's te viSa'M vi' jabhrire... = Paippalada Samhita 4.17.6 * The topic continues through Vedic literature, a few examples: AV (S'aunaka) in the context of destroying snake poison: 7.55.7 adanti tvA pipiilikA, vi vRzcanti mayUryaH . = Paippalada Samhita 1.48.4 PS 20.38.3 mayUraH kila te viSaM, kRkavAkuz ca jakSatu Krkavaku another bird, probably a peacock as well (AV, VS etc.) PS 19.47.2 mayUro 'tra vRzcikaM, mayUraM vayaM vidmasi / taM pari parijambhanaM, vRzcikajambhanam asi // in the context of killing various obnoxious animals. AV-PariziSTa has a number of mentionings, mostly in other contexts than that of destroying poison: 20.2.3, 21.4.2, 48.67, 58b.4.8, 61.1.12, 63.4.7, 64.4.6, 64.4.6, 65.1.6, 70c.24.4, Iam am sure there is much more, for example in Crooke's North Indian folklore. * Most interesting for you perhaps the Himalayan occurence, in Nepalese Shaman texts: in the context of the battle of the First Shaman with the 9 Witches ("9 Little Sisters"). --- Note that, as always in (N. Asian) shamanism, '9' is preferred, other than Rgveda "7'. (These Nepalese Shaman texts have a strong Atharva flavor, and show mixture of Shamanistic and "Hindu" elements): The Nine Little Sisters :"now we will eat him (the first shaman)... TAuko pherI khAUM, bhanI -- jhuppA pagarI cha, mor pekhi cha, ... kokalasarI cha, khAna didainan, bhanin. (W. Nepali dialect) "split open his skull and eat him" - "it's wrapped in a turban with a flap hanging behind it, there are peacock wings, ...cuckoos.. they don't let us eat him" they said. from: G. MASKARINEC, NEPALESE SHAMAN ORAL TEXTS Cambridge 1998, p 209 sq. (HARVARD ORIENTAL SERIES, vol. 55) Hope this helps.MW> NB: more on Munda, Rgvedic, Dravidan and Tocharian peacocks this weekend. Complex picture. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Thu Mar 11 08:50:33 1999 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 09:50:33 +0100 Subject: Peacocks and Poison--one last time In-Reply-To: <57711.zwilling@facstaff.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227047385.23782.2299121808754578505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Leonard, At 16:01 10/03/99 -0600, you wrote: >Having put this query out some time ago and not having received any >repsonses, I'd like to try one last time in the hope that perhaps a more >recent arrival to the list might be able to help me out. In a Tibetan text >I'm working with, "The Antidotal Peacock", which purports to be a >translation from the Skt (which I doubt), peacocks are said to thrive on >poisonous plants which they prefer for their food, and the ingestion of >which is said to be the cause for the brilliance of their tail feathers. >This theme of the poison ingesting peacock is found elsewhere in Tibetan >literature, most significantly in Sakya Pandita's >SubhASitaratnanidhi and, as R.A. Stein has written, that as Sakya >Pandita was, among Tibetan scholars, the most steeped in Sanskritic >learning, it is likely to be an Indian tradition. Is anyone familiar with >this bit of peacock lore? 1. According to Monier-Williams, 789b s.v. mayUra, mayUra-grIva- is "a kind of blue vitriol" (see also mayUra-tuttha-) 2. Peacocks and poison are connected in the artha ZAstra of KauTilya, ed. / trad. Kangle : A) Peacocks "destroy serpents" (i.e. feed on poisonous creatures) 1.20.6 mayUra-nakula-pRSatotsargaH sarpAn bhakSayati. 1.20.6 Letting loose peacocks, ichneumons and spotted deer (on the premises) destroys [bhakSayati, litt. eats up ] serpents. This is certainly why stables "must be crowded with monkeys, peacocks, spotted deer, ichneumons, cakora, parrots and zArikAs" (see Kangle's note on 2.30.4, trad. p.171 "some of the creatures are for detection of poison, others for averting the evil eye"). B) This may be the reason for the colour of their neck, a colour associated with poison in 1.21.7 annasya USmA mayUra-grIva-bhaH zaityam [... ... ...] iti viSa-yuktasya liGgAni. 1.21.7 Of boiled rice, steam having the colour of the peacock's neck, coldness, [... ... ...] these are the indications of (these objects when) mixed with poison. cf. MW.566a : nIlakaNTha- "blue-necked" ... a peacock; ... N(ame) of Ziva (as having a black throat from swallowing the poison produced at the churning of the ocean) ... It shoud be noticed too that the mayUra-grIva colour is not always associated with poison in the artha zAstra (cf. 2.11.74 ; 2.13.48). C) Peacocks, mentioned in a lengthy list of birds, belong to protected species. But it seems it is because they are vihAra-pakSin- "birds for sport") 2.26.5. D) A plant named mayUrapadI is used in the preparation of a stupefying mixture according to 14.1.17. Relationship in this case seems to be with shape (see the use of "peacock's feet" 2.19.25), not with colour. 14.1.17 : a mixture of zRGgi, the gautama-tree, kaNTakAra and mayUrapadI, a mixture of guJjA, lAGgalI, viSamUlikA and iGgudI, a mixture of karavIra, akSi, pIluka, arka and mRgamAraNI, mixed with a decoction of madana and kodrava, or mixed with a decoction of hastikarNa and palAza is a stupefying preparation. Hope this helps. J.F. From mmaggi at SINERGIA.IT Thu Mar 11 09:51:12 1999 From: mmaggi at SINERGIA.IT (MAGGI, Mauro) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 09:51:12 +0000 Subject: Peacocks and Poison--one last time Message-ID: <161227047388.23782.4131499199448302250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Leonard, A couple of years ago, while dealing with a cakravaaka- problem, I consulted K. N. Dave, Birds in Sanskrit literature, Delhi, Motilal Banarsidass, 1985 and found it useful. I have not the book at hand now, but I presume it could be of some help to you. Best wishes, Mauro Dr. Mauro Maggi Corso Antonio Gramsci 13 00045 Genzano di Roma Italia E-mail: mmaggi at sinergia.it Tel.: +39 069364890 Istituto italiano per l'Africa e l'Oriente (IsIAO) Biblioteca. Sezione orientale Via Merulana 248 00185 Roma Italia Tel.: +39 064874273 (centralino) Fax: +39 064873138 From DKumar6248 at AOL.COM Thu Mar 11 15:30:41 1999 From: DKumar6248 at AOL.COM (Keerthi Kumar) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 10:30:41 -0500 Subject: Dravidian: Mother of Indo... Message-ID: <161227047400.23782.365805853859242719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have read about this mind boggling phenomenon before. Are you the same author who wrote of The Dravidian and their identity? Fascinating. Simply fascinating. Please reply to this address. Love to here from you. I will access your new site with your new address. Thanks and as always I am still here! With best Regards, Dhanesh Kumar. From ditte.bandini at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Thu Mar 11 10:25:59 1999 From: ditte.bandini at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Ditte Bandini) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 11:25:59 +0100 Subject: Peacocks Message-ID: <161227047390.23782.2410797012662696252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You might also compare P.Thieme: Die Kobra bei Panini (Kleine Schriften 2, 626-639, Wiesbaden 1971), p. 628 where he discusses the compound mayuravyamsaka. Regards Ditte Bandini -- Dr. Ditte Bandini-Koenig Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg Germany mailto:ditte.bandini at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From bvi at AFN.ORG Thu Mar 11 16:37:44 1999 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 11:37:44 -0500 Subject: descriptions of abodes of devas Message-ID: <161227047403.23782.11978050359531789517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are there descriptions in the Vedic and Puranic literatures regarding the heavenly planets and their geography and the buildings of the devas residing there? From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Mar 11 12:54:24 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 13:54:24 +0100 Subject: Kalaapa Message-ID: <161227047393.23782.5227037570387246176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the astrological texts I am studying, the word kalaapa frequently occurs in contexts which seem to suggest the meaning 'strife, quarrel, fight' etc. However, I do not find this meaning supported by the standard Sanskrit dictionaries available to me. Have list members come across such uses of kalaapa anywhere? Regards, Martin Gansten From jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU Fri Mar 12 00:10:40 1999 From: jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 19:10:40 -0500 Subject: Peacocks and Poison--one last time Message-ID: <161227047413.23782.10428478945395458267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I tried to post this qualification earlier, but it did not make it to Indology. In my haste this morning I simplified the issue of the peacock's ingesting poison too much--I had in mind only the notion of its eating poison plants, which is not present in the passage (MBh 12.120.4-16). But the fifteenth zloka refers to snakes and enemies that are enraged and "overly venomous." The notion of the peacock's consuming venomous snakes is, of course, relevant to the question. Jim Fitzgerald From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Thu Mar 11 18:15:03 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 19:15:03 +0100 Subject: Kalaapa Message-ID: <161227047406.23782.8994387961875229509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Martin, In Richard Schmidt's Nachtraege zum Sanskrit-W?rterbuch in Kurzerer Fassung von Otto B?htlingk you will find kalApa m. = sainyasamudAya H 43, 167. The letter "H", I think, stands for the work Haravijaya. Yours, Ferenc From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 12 05:00:25 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 05:00:25 +0000 Subject: Early Ravi/Harappa phase: new discoveries Message-ID: <161227047409.23782.13975883929481255803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, The remarkable discoveries reported on the internet in Feb. 1999 [Kenoyer and Meadow: http://www.harappa.com/indus2] affirm the continuous, indigenous development of the culture to extend to almost TWO MILLENNIA,from ca. 3300 to 1300 BC, starting with the Early Ravi/Harappan phase (c. 3300 to 2800 BC). The eary date of ca. 3300 BC is corroborated by the discoveries reported at Kunal (Puratattva). The date of 1300 BC is corroborated by the discovery of a surface find of a seal at Bet Dwaraka, a civilization site on the tip of the Rann of Kutch [cf. S R Rao, Marine Archaeological exploration reports]. Scientists' views on the desiccation of the Sarasvati River (Markanda-Ghaggar-Hakra-Nara-Wahind)reported in Vedic Sarasvati (Feb. 1999, Geological Society of India)are consistent with the observations of Kenoyer and Meadow about the migration of the people from this river basin to the Ganga- Yamuna Doab and southwards-- migrations apparently caused by the desiccation of the river. Is it reasonable to conjecture that the circular 'working' platforms used by lapidaries/braziers working on lathes, with beads and inscribing on seals/tablets, including copper tablets? [Kenoyer and Meadow conjecture that the platforms were perhaps used to prepare indigo dye]. Would it be reasonable to hypothesise (1)the continuity of the Harappan culture after ca. 1300, into the historical periods and (2)hence, a linguistic area ca. 3000 BCE using early forms of Pali (Sindhi-Gujarati-Punjabi-Bhojpuri)as substratum language? Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 12 14:21:06 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 06:21:06 -0800 Subject: Kalaapa Message-ID: <161227047435.23782.9492369967682478260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Gansten, For the Tamil word kalApam occuring in the sense of quarrel, war, fight, pl. see the 12th century kantapurANam poem: ittiRam poruta kAlaip piNimukattu Ental tan2n2aip paittalai uTaiya tUvi paRittiTA vatan2am muRRum kutti vem kuruti vITTik kuru maNik kalApam Irttu meyttuyar purintAn2 nEmip puL uruk koNTa veyyOn2. Here kalaapam occurs in two senses here as 1) war and 2) as the more usual, 'decoration, bejeweled feathers'. For the Neo-Hindu view of universal varnas, a possible ref.: M. V. Parwardhan, The ideal democratic republic of Manu, 1968. Kind regards, N. Ganesan Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 12 06:58:12 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 06:58:12 +0000 Subject: Kalaapa Message-ID: <161227047416.23782.11705815530816440887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Chandrasekaran, Periannan" wrote: > The Cologne Online Tamil Dictionary returns the following entries > for a search on kalApam...> otl kalApam kalApam 01 1. women's zone of beads of bells consisting of 16> strands; 2. jewelled girdle of a woman; 3. peacock's tail;> 4. umbrella made of peacock's feathers> > otl kalApam kalApam 02 rising, disturbance, uproar, raid, invasion> otl kalApam kalApam 1. collection; cluster; 2. quiver (TLS)> interestingly there is a word 'kAlapam' which has the following entry:> kALapam> otl kALapam kALapam battle, fight, warfare The transform p~~h is common in Kannada. It will be of interest to trace the old forms of kalaham = disurbance, fight... Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Mar 12 01:31:45 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 07:01:45 +0530 Subject: Anandashram Newsletter 3 Message-ID: <161227047420.23782.12762748682774935540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> March 12, 1999 Announcement We are happy to announce that Anandashram Newsletter 3 (March 1999) is almost ready for despatch to list members who have already given their postal addresses. Those who wish to have a copy but have not registered earlier are requested to give their postal addresses at the e-mail address given below. We are also happy to announce that two spacious guest rooms, along with a decent toilet room, have been refurbished out of the space in the Institute's premises lying unused for decades. They are meant for the use of those who come to Pune for Sanskritic studies. For further details, contact Manager on the postal address given below or the e-mail address of Prof. Arjunwadkar. K. S. Arjunwadkar Trustee, Anandashram Samstha 22 Budhwar Peth, Pune 411 002, India From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 12 07:18:29 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 07:18:29 +0000 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization;funerary pottery evidence Message-ID: <161227047418.23782.10060181335590942426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "C.R. Selvakumar" wrote:> > mayaanam means graveyard; maayaavi means spirit (of a dead person) Can we predict the older forms as follows? smas'a_nam ~~ maya_nam sma_raka (remembrance; cf. izmareik--Khot.) ~~ HOMONYM:(s)marak (peacock) Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Fri Mar 12 13:59:10 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 07:59:10 -0600 Subject: indological films Message-ID: <161227047432.23782.11925057325860441750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Im looking for the following films, most of them produced by the >University of Wisconsin: Center for South Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison 203 Ingraham Hall, 1155 Observatory Drive Madison, WI 53706 USA Phone:(608) 262-4884 Fax: (608) 265-3062 E-mail: sasianctr at macc.wisc.edu SA Studies; program assistant Sharon L. Dickson sdickson at facstaff.wisc.edu S.A. Dept (608) 262-3012 (608)-262-9690 FAX 608-265-3062 South Asia, Center for 226 Ingraham Hall, 1155 Observatory Dr, 53706 sasianctr at macc.wisc.edu Information 26 2-4884 Outreach/Films 26 2-4884 Asst Dir-Sharon Dickson 26 2-3209 Dir-Joseph Elder 26 2-3209. > >-Four Holy Men >-Pilgrimage to Kashi >-Dadi and her Family >- >-Wedding of the Goddess (Minakshi) >-Holi >-Ram ke Nam (Ayodhya) > >Does anyone know where to get those films??? I'm looking forward to a= >ny >advice. Thank you. >Sybil Kruegel, Institut fuer Religionswissenschaft, Universitaet Ber= >n, >Switzerland From sybil.kruegel at THEOL.UNIBE.CH Fri Mar 12 07:53:31 1999 From: sybil.kruegel at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Sybil Kruegel) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 08:53:31 +0100 Subject: indological films Message-ID: <161227047423.23782.4788395347556038930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Im looking for the following films, most of them produced by the University of Wisconsin: -Four Holy Men -Pilgrimage to Kashi -Dadi and her Family - -Wedding of the Goddess (Minakshi) -Holi -Ram ke Nam (Ayodhya) Does anyone know where to get those films??? I'm looking forward to a= ny advice. Thank you. Sybil Kruegel, Institut fuer Religionswissenschaft, Universitaet Ber= n, Switzerland From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Fri Mar 12 15:24:04 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 10:24:04 -0500 Subject: kalApa Message-ID: <161227047443.23782.18422203402163657996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * *Cf. the German word "Strauss", which has the same two meanings as *(apparently) skt. kalApa: 1) bunch (of flowers), 2) fight, combat. The *second meaning has evolved as a poetic metaphora, fighting men entangled in *battle being compared with a bunch (of flowers, twigs etc.). The root of the word kalApa appears to be of Tamil/Dravidian origin : kala = mix, join. The semantic root senses match with German. Numerous tamil words can be related to kala. C.R.Selvakumar * *Georg v. Simson * From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Mar 12 11:57:36 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 11:57:36 +0000 Subject: Kalaapa In-Reply-To: <9130EFB0684CD211869E0020484016B512C389@satlmsgusr07.delta-air.com> Message-ID: <161227047427.23782.6120915870567338368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This topic has thrown light on a long-standing question I have had. In manuscripts of the unpublished Rasendramangala by pseudo-Nagarjuna (see Ambix 31 (1984), David White, _The Alchemical Body_ (1996), passim) there is an expression "challapalla" as in kiM challapallair varavaidyaraaja.h sa raajate bhuupatim \dag agratas ya\dag } \note{agratastha P.} na vetti yo vai rasaraajave"sanaM kaaru.nyakiirtti sa kathaM hi lebhe and sarvo.sadhaanaaM kriyayopayogata.h sa challapallair varayogaratnai.h naayaati tulyaM varayogibhuutale rasendrayogaac chatako.tir aM"sata.h [unedited MS transcripts] There is an expression like "challapalla" in Hindi, but I now see that after entry 1096 (kalaapam: confusion, quarrel) DED (1 ed) has: 1101 Ta. kalipali, kalipili uproar, disturbance, quarrel, wrangle. with similar words in Kannada (galabali, galabili, galibili), Tulu (galibili galabu), Telugu (galibili, galaba). It seems that this is a cluster of related words, perhaps from an onomatapoeic origin. I think my "challapalla" and Gansten's "kalaapa" may me part of the same general family. Perhaps we could call these "rhubarb" words. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/library London NW1 2BE, England. From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Fri Mar 12 17:00:24 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 12:00:24 -0500 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization;funerary pottery evidence Message-ID: <161227047445.23782.15405718437416086173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.Kalyanaraman wrote: > "C.R. Selvakumar" wrote:> > > mayaanam means graveyard; maayaavi means spirit (of a dead person) > > Can we predict the older forms as follows? > > smas'a_nam ~~ maya_nam > sma_raka (remembrance; cf. izmareik--Khot.) ~~ HOMONYM:(s)marak > (peacock) > > Regards, > Kalyanaraman Dr. Kalyanaraman: I've no idea how to predict older forms. Re the language of the Indus/Harappa civilization, it may be important, I think, to understand the relationship of Dravidian with ancient Sumerian, Elamite, Egyptian, Old Iranian and later Greek-Latin. There appears to be connections (borrowing of words and ideas both ways, as well as trade). Elamite may be related to Tamil/Dravidian. These connections are not well studied, it appears. It may have a bearing on this issue. C.R.Selvakumar From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri Mar 12 10:12:00 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 13:12:00 +0300 Subject: Early Ravi/Harappa phase: new discoveries Message-ID: <161227047425.23782.9305753876862032486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Fri Mar 12 13:04:19 MSK 1999 Dear Mr Kalyanaraman, in your posting you refer to some very interesting archeological findings which prove that at some sites in the Sarasvati/Indus region the Early/Mature/Late Harappan cultural continuity lasted for almost two millenia. If we take into account the data from such sites as Merhgarh, the period of uninterrupted cultural continuity in the region may be supposed to be even much longer. But I could not see in what way this fact of the Indus Civilization's longevity prompts you to suggest that the same culture continued to exist even much longer. You say >Would it be reasonable to hypothesise (1)the continuity of the = >Harappan culture after ca. 1300, into the historical periods = >and (2)hence, a linguistic area ca. 3000 BCE using early forms of Pali >(Sindhi-Gujarati-Punjabi-Bhojpuri) as substratum language? I am afraid, it would not. What are the reasons for it to be reasonable? A hypothesis is not a wild guess, it has to be based on some evidence at least. Is there any archaeological evidence for it? On the contrary, as far as I know, about this very time (c. 1300 BC) or slightly later the Late Harappan culture is being replaced or overlaid everywhere by OCP or PGW. Or do you know any linguistic evidence which gives you grounds to suggest that the Indus people since ca. 3000 BC (or even earlier - "the substratum language") spoke Middle Indo-Aryan and even New Indo-Aryan languages? But even if you choose to speak about Vedic Sanskrit as the language of the Sarasvati/Indus civilisation, it would look to me doubtful. All serious studies of the Indus script (by *serious* I mean those which used modern scientific methodics - the works of Yuri Knorozov' group in Russia, Asko Parpola's group in Finland and such scholars as I.Mahadevan in India) - all such studies point rather in the direction of the Proto-Dravidian as the language of the IVC. Best regards Ya.V. From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Mar 12 14:47:06 1999 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 15:47:06 +0100 Subject: kalApa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047437.23782.16114843393817552784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cf. the German word "Strauss", which has the same two meanings as (apparently) skt. kalApa: 1) bunch (of flowers), 2) fight, combat. The second meaning has evolved as a poetic metaphora, fighting men entangled in battle being compared with a bunch (of flowers, twigs etc.). Georg v. Simson From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU Fri Mar 12 23:55:54 1999 From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 17:55:54 -0600 Subject: Krsnakarnamrta verse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047447.23782.10001238279030520477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sahrdayas, Could someone please supply me with the 4th paada of a verse from the Krsnakarnamrta which begins kRzNenaamba gatena rantum adhunaa mRd bhakzitaa svecchayaa satyaM krzNa ka evam aaha musalii mithyaamba paSyaananam / vyaadehiiti vidaarite 'tha vadane dRzTvaa samastaM jagan ??? [...keSavaH paantu naH?] This is a well-known "conversational verse" which ends with Krishna's mother seeing the entire universe in his mouth. It is verse II.65 in Francis Wilson's crit. ed.(p. 165), but a "printer's devil" has made off with the entire last line --and I can't recall it! Thanks! Tim Cahill From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 12 19:11:55 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 19:11:55 +0000 Subject: Early Ravi/Harappa phase: new discoveries Message-ID: <161227047430.23782.12770627986277028454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Yaroslav V. Vassilkov" wrote: ...> All serious studies of the Indus script (by *serious* I mean those which > used modern scientific methodics - the works of Yuri Knorozov' group in > Russia, Asko Parpola's group in Finland and > such scholars as I.Mahadevan in India) - all such studies point rather in > the direction of the Proto-Dravidian as the language of the IVC. I agree that these scholars have theorised assuming a proto-Dravidian. The problem, however, is similar to the earlier problems faced by the Aryan invasion theories: the absence of archaeological evidence pointing to the continuity of the Late Harappan with the proto-Dravidian culture. (virtually no finds, excepting for a Daimabad round seal with the 'jar' motif on the banks of Pravara, a tributary of Godavari river). Sarasvati river desiccation is likely to explain the migrations eastward into the Ganga-Yamuna doab and south/east of Surat (cf. expansion of rice cultivation); perhaps, the tracing of proto-Dravidian substratum words in Bhojpuri (and old Gujarati) may help identify the early forms of the language ca. 1300 BC, assuming that some Harappans did move to Bhojpuri (and Saurashtra)... Hundreds of settlements in Saurashtra do point to a continuity beyond 1300 BC... Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Mar 12 15:49:30 1999 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 20:49:30 +0500 Subject: Kalaapa Message-ID: <161227047440.23782.25044705866102336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the stanza challapallair varayogaratnaiH, challapalla seems to refer to a practitioner of varayoga- (?one of the aayurvedayogas); this is not an onomatopoetic expression like the Dravidin words given by you. In aayurveda is there a yoga called varayoga? Or does vara mean 'good, leading'? Is it a common noun or a proper noun? Is the ch aspirated c? The s'loka seems to say that varayoga cannot match rasendrayoga even one/100crores.The syntax is not clear. What does sa in the second stanza refer to? Bh.K. At 11:57 12/03/99 +0000, you wrote: >This topic has thrown light on a long-standing question I have had. In >manuscripts of the unpublished Rasendramangala by pseudo-Nagarjuna (see >Ambix 31 (1984), David White, _The Alchemical Body_ (1996), passim) there >is an expression "challapalla" as in > sarvo.sadhaanaaM kriyayopayogata.h > sa challapallair varayogaratnai.h > naayaati tulyaM varayogibhuutale > rasendrayogaac chatako.tir aM"sata.h > >[unedited MS transcripts] > > 1101 Ta. kalipali, kalipili uproar, disturbance, quarrel, wrangle. > >with similar words in Kannada (galabali, galabili, galibili), Tulu >(galibili galabu), Telugu (galibili, galaba). > >It seems that this is a cluster of related words, perhaps from an >onomatapoeic origin. I think my "challapalla" and Gansten's "kalaapa" may >me part of the same general family. Perhaps we could call these "rhubarb" >words. ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 (A.P.), India Telephone:40-7019665 E-mail: From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Mar 13 01:26:10 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 99 06:56:10 +0530 Subject: Krsnakarnamrta verse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047450.23782.3638746031577567234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:55 PM 3/12/99 -0600, you wrote: >Sahrdayas, > > Could someone please supply me with the 4th paada of a verse from the >Krsnakarnamrta which begins ...... > > >Thanks! >Tim Cahill > Reply mAtA yasya jagAma vismayapadaM pAyAt sa vaH ZrIpatiH Best wishes. KSA From zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Sat Mar 13 18:20:02 1999 From: zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Leonard Zwilling) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 99 12:20:02 -0600 Subject: Peacocks and poison Message-ID: <161227047453.23782.6251248403178260728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd very much like to thank those list members who so generously shared their knowledge in response to my query. However, perhaps I was not explicit enough in communicating precisely what I was looking for, namely a connection between peacocks and poisonous plants, which is a staple of Tibetan peacock lore. Some exx: a verse in a text related to the one on which I'm working has the following: "When the peacocks roam the jungle of black aconite/ The flocks are not gladdened/ No matter how beautiful the medicine garden may be; / For peacocks thrive on the essence of black aconite." Or the following from a 12th cent mahAmUdrA text ( translation in JIABS 15 (2): 264):--"Aconite is the optimal nourishment for the peacock. If others eat it, they will die. If the peacock renounces aconite, it will die." [On this, I offer a half-verse gleaned from Prajn~Akaramati's commentary on BodhicaryAvatAra 9.92cd, though the explicit connection here is with the poisonous snake : ahir mayurasya sukhAya jayate/ viSaM viSAbhyAsavato rasAyanam (p.240 in Vaidya's ed.)] And again, from Sakya Pandita's autocommentary to vs 152 of his SubhASitaratnanidhi; "It's [=the peacock's] food is the terrible, great poison, black aconite." In the above Tib sources btsan dug, literally "virulent poison" is universally understood by tradition as bong nga nag po, or black aconite. Which brings me to a remark of Wilhelm Rau in his monograph Altindisches Pfeilgift (p.37): "Aconite is called viSa in Sanskrit...this is certainly the root meaning, which was later transferred to every type of poison, e.g. the cobra's poison." Even if Rau is correct (would anyone care to weigh in on this?) this can hardly be the basis for the Tibetan tradition; so, given what appears to be the absence of evidence on the Indian side for a peacock-poison plant connection, is this connection likely to have been made by people without any first hand knowledge of peacock behavior, extrapolating from the well known (to Tibetans as well) theme of peacocks as poisonous snake killers, as well as Indian lore of the peacock's flesh as incorruptible, it's bile as antidotal, and the like? From klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Sat Mar 13 21:28:12 1999 From: klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Bo Klintberg) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 99 16:28:12 -0500 Subject: Map over Pataliputra/Nalanda Message-ID: <161227047455.23782.14816794680095875202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prabhus, Could anyone give me the title of a book or two which has a detailed map over Nalanda university and its position in relation to Pataliputra? Most grateful for any response! yours sincerely, Bo Klintberg Institute for the History and Philosophy of Science and Technology University of Toronto From kekai at JPS.NET Sun Mar 14 18:39:23 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 10:39:23 -0800 Subject: Dravidian: Mother of Indo-European.. Message-ID: <161227047518.23782.13430923564370879509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Would this be adequate evidence to claim that Dravidian is the mother tongue? > May be a thousand flowers bloomed at once; many language families are of great > antiquity. Something that I think is usually missed in ascribing "origins" to languages. The form of any language may have changed drastically in various directions over the course of thousands or tens of thousand of years (hundreds of thousands?). All the ideas of conservation of basic vocabulary also are highly speculative and based mostly on observation of limited scope over a relatively short period of time. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Sun Mar 14 18:52:24 1999 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 13:52:24 -0500 Subject: Yet another areal/GENERALITIES Message-ID: <161227047460.23782.10058843628050644685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thank Professor Witzel for a nice summary of the received wisdom in IE aspectology. However I remain a skeptic and explaining why takes much too long. In view of the new rules, we ought to move this off Indology. I will summarize my objections below. If those interested will drop me a note, I can start off a round table discussion with a more detailed explanation. Alternatively, we can use the IE list (indo-european at xkl.com, admin: ??; you can do it thru http://www.liguist.org) Firstly, there is the internal objection, as formulated by Szemerenyi: The distinction in Slavic based on verbal prefixes is not inherited. The imperfects of Latin, Armenian, OCS/Bulgarian, Lithuvanian and Tokharian are not morphologically similar to the Greek-I-Ir imperfect. Furthermore, some forms cognate to the latter are found in Armenian and Slavic >aorists<, as well as the Baltic preterite. The syntax of Greek and I-Ir differ too much; in particular the pathway from the former to the latter has not been explained in terms of diachronic syntax. Secondly there is the external objection: The assumption that a stem being usable in the present is equivalent to being atelic, common in IE aspectology, does not apply to many (most?) languages. The presence of such a feature must be demonstrated by syntactical study of complete utterances or, for reconstructed languages, by diachronic syntax, before we can start partitioning stems. The same goes for the relation between completives and perfectives. My interest in completives in Indian languages is that here we might be able to see the evolution. Most of the languages with completives in Bybee's sample do not have long known records. -Nath From smittal at RELIGION.UFL.EDU Sun Mar 14 19:19:58 1999 From: smittal at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Sushil Mittal) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 14:19:58 -0500 Subject: CFP: IJHS Message-ID: <161227047457.23782.11041077585467662989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Call for Papers You are invited to submit articles to the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. For more information, including details of how to submit your article, click here: http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/call.htm, or contact the Editor: Sushil Mittal University of Florida Department of Religion 125 Dauer Hall, P.O. Box 117410 Gainesville, Florida 32611-7410 USA Telephone: (352) 392-1625 Telefax: (352) 392-7395 Email: smittal at religion.ufl.edu From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sun Mar 14 20:41:19 1999 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 15:41:19 -0500 Subject: old books/new technology Message-ID: <161227047462.23782.16051962462339298139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just ran across a new venture at: http://www.octavo.com/ It's an impressive combination of very old books with very new technology. Brian -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Mar 15 04:01:57 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 23:01:57 -0500 Subject: Yet another areal/GENERALITIES In-Reply-To: <003f01be6e4e$3682d180$8871fe8c@raol.lucent.com> Message-ID: <161227047467.23782.897667063104141049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since nobody else is (actively) interested I will be brief: At 13:52 -0500 3/14/99, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: >summary of IE aspectology.... >... objection by Szemerenyi: >The distinction in Slavic based on verbal prefixes is not inherited. well known. Nor the English progressive forms... >imperfects of Latin, Armenian, OCS/Bulgarian, Lithuvanian and Tokharian >are not morphologically similar to the Greek-I-Ir imperfect. Again well known. But it is clear that Latin has the new (periphrastic) formation with "to become" (skt. bhuu) in -bam, -bas -bat. As in Germanic (-ed; and differently : sing-sang-sung), their verb system has been reshaped completely. But Latin has the REMNANTS of the s-Aor. in the Latin Perfect, veh : vexi ... So what was the pre-Latin system? --QED. >... the pathway from the former to > the latter has not been explained in terms of diachronic syntax. I suggest H. Rix, Historische Grammatik desGriechischen. Darmstadt 1976 p. 192 sqq., or G. Meiser, Historische Laut- und Formenlehre der lateinischen Sprache, Darmstadt 1998, p. 180 sq. (NB: Mycenean Greek may still have had even the Injunctive, Rix p. 228). >Secondly: The assumption that a stem >being usable in the present is equivalent to being atelic,... does not >apply to many (most?) > >languages. Not an assumption: Imperfective (atelic!) aspect corresponds in many cases to the so-called present stem and is then used for Pres. and Past tense. In other cases, one has to study the way present function is expressed (reduplication, -ccha etc.). I gave some examples last time. --- On similar, *general* grounds it was supposed by some linguists that phonetic systems such as IE p : ph : b: bh should not exist. Well, what about Skt. etc.?? -- Note : "some /most?" -- "Universals" cannot be arrived at that simply. And, actually, the (late) IE verb system is of course much more complicated than that of a simple aspect stem opposition. There also is the perfect, the stative (veda 'he knows', zaye 'he lies' etc.) and a bunch of other forms. >The presence of >such a feature must be demonstrated by syntactical study of complete >utterances As has been done by K. Hoffmann for Vedic (Der Injkunktiv...) (cf. Rix on Mycenean) > or, for reconstructed languages, by diachronic syntax, before >we can start partitioning stems. Well, what about the 600 pp. of examples by Rix et al.? ( Lexikon der idg. Verben). They have been 'partioned' in a bunch of IE languages: Rix et al. supply the formal background. Actual syntax is much more difficult to RECONSTRUCT as we normally cannot reconstruct sentences. Occasionally, formulas allow to do so (e.g. the "Semitic" word order: aasiid raajaa..., Es war einmal ein Koenig, ..., etc.) Otherwise, on pan-IE comparisons to establish IE syntax, see R. Anttila, Historical and compararative linguistcs, 1989, p. 357 sqq. Actually, Szemereny himself says (Einfuehrung in die vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Darmstadt 1970, p. 213) that the Indo-Iranian-Greek system reflects the (late) IE one, "because Latin retains in its perfect the old [IE] perfect and the old Aorist, especially clearly the s-Aor. , and so does Celtic; Slavic still has an aorist which mainly continues the forms of the old Aor." In other words, in the later attested languages such as Latin etc., we have reduction of the more complex (late) IE apect system. (Almost the same words, Szemerenyi p. 310). >My >interest in completives in Indian languages is that here we might be >able to see the evolution. The system is in place in the Rgveda (1500 BC.?); Prakrit, etc. derive from that type of language and have severely reconstructed and reduced their verb system, (reflected even in Epic Skt.), (and just like Latin did); and they then have built up new categories of their own. Final comment: it is best to EXPERIENCE the workings of the system in action, e.g. in Vedic, then come to "general" conclusions. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Mar 15 04:08:56 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 23:08:56 -0500 Subject: Kalaapa In-Reply-To: <9130EFB0684CD211869E0020484016B512C389@satlmsgusr07.delta-air.com> Message-ID: <161227047464.23782.8955767935902378780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:06 -0500 3/11/99, Chandrasekaran, Periannan wrote: >> From: Martin Gansten > kalaapa ..... meaning 'strife, quarrel, fight' etc. >Cologne Online Tamil Dictionary: >otl kalApam kalApam 02 rising, disturbance, uproar, raid, invasion ... >kALapam >>otl kALapam kALapam battle, fight, warfare ---- Kalyanaraman wrote: >>The transform p~~h is common in Kannada. It will be of interest to trace >> the old forms of kalaham = disurbance, fight... however, this Kannada change is occurs only c. 900/1000 AD (Drav. specialists please tell us) . The Skt word kalaha, however, is attested already in the Upanisads, c. 500 BCE... and Skt kalaha thus cannot come from Kannada. And Burrow -Emeneau's DEDR 1303 Tam. KalaGku, kalApa 'to be stirred up, agitated, confused', etc. has only the Kan. entries kala(G)ku 'perturb' etc., ... kaluhe 'turbidness', not kalaha. If there is a connection it must be via another Drav. language: for example Gondi kallih, Kurukh xalaxnA 'disturb, confuse' etc." (DEDR 1303) Or we must suppose a derivation from the onomatopoetic word DEDR1302 Tam. kala-kala 'to reiterate in sound ..." which is not the same as quarrel; nevertheless see: 1302 Tam. kallal 'disturbance, ...tumult...noise due to many peope speaking at the same time'. Cf.also Dominik's > "challapalla" in Hindi .... after entry 1096 (kalaapam: confusion, >quarrel) DED (1 ed) has: > 1101 Ta. kalipali, kalipili uproar, disturbance, quarrel, wrangle. which is a comparable, though not related onomatopoetic case. None of which is entirely satifactory for an Up. time word kalaha- Perhaps the Dravidian specialists can enlighten us here? Turner 's CDIAL 2922 returns it only from Mahabharata, and compares Prakrt, and from Panjabi and Nepali to Marathi and Sinhala; but note that the word even occurs in Nuristani (Kafiri): kelE, keele (here, e= schwa, E = e). Should we suppose a Drav. origin of the word in those isolated languages as well? Mayrhofer EWA (new ed. 1986-1996, of his etym. dict. of Skt) vol. I p. 321 says : kalaha-- Up.+, kalahin- GRhyaSUtra, Up., "not explained"; and refers to older Drav. and Munda explanations, in part onomatopoetic. In addition, note for example Mundari kal-kalAo 'to make a noise' Note also that Kashmiri has a 'reduplication', kolakol "uproar", so typical for onomatopoetica from Burushaski to Munda to Tamil (not to forget the two Vedic types bal-bal,kara-kara). If the "root" of these words is onomatopoetic, there is little chance to pin down the exact source. In addition, the texts/languages in question are first attested at different times : Up. 500 BCE, Tamil begin of CE, Munda and Kafiri only for the past 100 years or so. -- However, since similar words (kala-) occur in all great language families of S. Asia, one may suppose an old S.Asian expression,taken over into all languages concerned. -- Pretty useless in case of an onomatopoetikon. ----- Last point : if kala- is onomatopoetic, the Tamil etc word kalApa 'peacock feather/tail ' may, just may be a loan translation from Munda where mara('k) 'peacock' belongs to the root 'to cry'. ____________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From krishna at TICNET.COM Mon Mar 15 07:47:29 1999 From: krishna at TICNET.COM (Krishna Susarla) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 01:47:29 -0600 Subject: Interested in Gaudiya Vaishnava books Message-ID: <161227047472.23782.7827633370792110222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm visiting India this summer, and I am interested in getting the following books with the original Sanskrit (devanagari, not local language transcriptions). Can anyone please give the specific publication info for some suitable books (especially ISBN numbers if they have them)? Specific details about where to obtain them would also be welcome. Govinda-bhaashya by Baladeva Vidyabhuushana (I need something that has the original Sanskrit for the commentary) Vedaanta-syamantaka by Baladeva Vidyabhuushana Tattva-suutra by Bhaktivinode Thakur Amnaya-suutra by Bhaktivinod Thakur Bhagavat Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii Paramaatmaa Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii Priiti Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii Bhakti Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii Krishna Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii I also would like to know if anyone has published the so-called Krama Sandarbha and Sarva Samvaadini, both by Jiiva. If you only know of books that happen to have the translation also, that is okay. I just need books with the original Sanskrit in them. I am specifically going to visit South India (Madras, Bangalore, Vijayawada, Vizag) so if you know of locations in these areas that sell them, that would be helpful. thanks in advance, -- Krishna Susarla From sybil.kruegel at THEOL.UNIBE.CH Mon Mar 15 08:31:36 1999 From: sybil.kruegel at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Sybil Kruegel) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 09:31:36 +0100 Subject: indological films Message-ID: <161227047470.23782.15232900926071381428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Rabe schrieb: > > >Im looking for the following films, most of them produced by the > >University of Wisconsin: > > Center for South Asia > University of Wisconsin-Madison > 203 Ingraham Hall, 1155 Observatory Drive > Madison, WI 53706 USA > Phone:(608) 262-4884 Fax: (608) 265-3062 > E-mail: sasianctr at macc.wisc.edu > > SA Studies; program assistant > Sharon L. Dickson > sdickson at facstaff.wisc.edu > S.A. Dept (608) 262-3012 > (608)-262-9690 > FAX 608-265-3062 > South Asia, Center for > 226 Ingraham Hall, 1155 Observatory Dr, 53706 > sasianctr at macc.wisc.edu > Information 26 2-4884 > Outreach/Films 26 2-4884 > Asst Dir-Sharon Dickson 26 2-3209 > Dir-Joseph Elder 26 2-3209. > > > >-Four Holy Men > >-Pilgrimage to Kashi > >-Dadi and her Family > >- > >-Wedding of the Goddess (Minakshi) > >-Holi > >-Ram ke Nam (Ayodhya) > > > >Does anyone know where to get those films??? I'm looking forward to a= > >ny > >advice. Thank you. > >Sybil Kruegel, Institut fuer Religionswissenschaft, Universitaet Ber= > >n, > >Switzerland Thank you. Sybil Kruegel From nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR Mon Mar 15 10:31:06 1999 From: nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR (Jadranka Schauer) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 11:31:06 +0100 Subject: Interested in Gaudiya Vaishnava books Message-ID: <161227047475.23782.1671106314422700501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.WisdOMbooks.com/ their address is: admin at WisdOMbooks.com, located in Calcutta. Yashoda devi dasi Krishna Susarla wrote: > I'm visiting India this summer, and I am interested in getting the following > books with the original Sanskrit (devanagari, not local language > transcriptions). Can anyone please give the specific publication info for > some suitable books (especially ISBN numbers if they have them)? Specific > details about where to obtain them would also be welcome. > > Govinda-bhaashya by Baladeva Vidyabhuushana (I need something that has the > original Sanskrit for the commentary) > Vedaanta-syamantaka by Baladeva Vidyabhuushana > Tattva-suutra by Bhaktivinode Thakur > Amnaya-suutra by Bhaktivinod Thakur > Bhagavat Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii > Paramaatmaa Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii > Priiti Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii > Bhakti Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii > Krishna Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii > > I also would like to know if anyone has published the so-called Krama > Sandarbha and Sarva Samvaadini, both by Jiiva. > > If you only know of books that happen to have the translation also, that is > okay. I just need books with the original Sanskrit in them. I am > specifically going to visit South India (Madras, Bangalore, Vijayawada, > Vizag) so if you know of locations in these areas that sell them, that would > be helpful. > > thanks in advance, > > -- Krishna Susarla ? From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Mon Mar 15 20:55:26 1999 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 15:55:26 -0500 Subject: Tradition of Debate in India Message-ID: <161227047483.23782.15608079564445952334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The tradition of Shastrath (debate) is considered to be quite old in India. I wonder if the list members can suggest me a book/article on the history of this tradition, especially in the ancient period. Was it O.K. to question any doctrine or concept in the ancient period? I would like know with specific examples and references. Alok Kumar Department of Physics State University of New York Oswego, NY 13126. From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Mon Mar 15 22:55:02 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 17:55:02 -0500 Subject: Kalaapa Message-ID: <161227047485.23782.4223498865772787827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * *>however, this Kannada change is occurs only c. 900/1000 AD (Drav. *>specialists please tell us) . The Skt word kalaha, however, is attested *>already in the Upanisads, c. 500 BCE... and Skt kalaha thus cannot come *>from Kannada. Professor Witzel, I believe Skt. kalaha comes from tamil kalakam. Many tamils pronounce -ka- as -ha-. Examples: ulakam (= world) as ulaham; akalam (= breadth or width) as ahalam; makan ( = son) as mahan; akappadu = ahappadu etc. * *Yes. Kannada change of p to h is during the historic period, i.e 10th *century. It cannot be a borrowing from Kannada. Burrow in Dravidian Studies *VII traced *Skt. kalanka- (51), kalaha (54), kalaapa (56) to the group of forms to be *reconstructed as *kal-a (DEDR 1303, 1299). In the last chapter of Sanskrit *Lanaguge, he added Skt. kalu.sa- to this group. Ta. kalaavu, kalaay 'to be *displeased, to get angry, quarrel' have a long derivative vowel which looks *to an underlying laryngeal *kal-aH-wu/-y, in which case h in kalaha- could *be a reflex of a PD laryngeal. Only Old Tamil has long -aa in the derivative ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *syllable. I have to look for parallel loan words with h preserved in Skt. ~~~~~~~~~ I don't understand Prof. Krishnamurti's statment. Even in modern Tamil, we've words like kulavu > kulaavu ulavu > ulaavu, taTavu > taTaavu etc. *I wrote a full-fledged paper on PD laryngeal; it surfaces as aaydam (a *h-type of sound)in Early Tamil and as h in some of the other Dravidian lgs. *Prof. Witzel, see if you can get hold of a copy of PILC Journal of Dravidic *Studies 7:1 (1997; actually out in 1998 March).(PILC=Pondicherry Inst of Lg *and Culture). If the article would be available on the web somewhere it would be useful. [..] * *>Last point : if kala- is onomatopoetic, the Tamil etc word kalApa 'peacock *>feather/tail ' may, just may be a loan translation from Munda where *>mara('k) 'peacock' belongs to the root 'to cry'. * *Burrow (1948) gives the meaning 'bundle' as the basis of semantic connection *with 'peacock's tail' and compares it with Ta. Ma. Ka. kalappu'collection of *things, mass' etc.(1299). Tamil word for the 'train' of the peacock is 'tOkai', which has the connotation of 'collection' (toku = collect), I think. C.R.Selvakumar * *Bh.K. *___________________________ *Bhadriraju Krishnamurti From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Mar 15 23:29:20 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 18:29:20 -0500 Subject: ["Barry Pittard" : Naadis] Message-ID: <161227047487.23782.14697848891405847289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been asked to forward this query to your mailing list or listserv. Please reply directly to Barry Pittard at the address below if you have any information on the subject of his query. THANKS! David Magier ============== From: "Barry Pittard" Subject: Naadis Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:01:50 +1000 I'm an Australian who has spent a number of years in India serving in academic and social service areas. I'm slowly exploring the topic of naadis, the predictive readings on palmyra (or palm) leaves purportedly authored by great ancient sages - such as Brighu, Shuka, Shukra, Agasthya, Kousika, Koumara, Kakbhusandi, Bhoga, Pullipani, Vashista, Vishwamitra, etc. Even the slightest bits of information help me to "jigsaw" a larger picture together. I want to make contact with anyone who knows any shred of information about these leaves - addresses of naadi jyothishas (readers), and experiences - convincing or otherwise - of any one who has ever consulted these leaves. Barry Pittard From gregjay at POI.NET Tue Mar 16 05:06:04 1999 From: gregjay at POI.NET (Greg Jay) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 19:06:04 -1000 Subject: Interested in Gaudiya Vaishnava books In-Reply-To: <019901be6ec0$bcf06580$65daddd0@krishna_susarla.swmed.edu> Message-ID: <161227047497.23782.5962539361882767192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Krishna Susarla, namaskaram >Govinda-bhaashya by Baladeva Vidyabhuushana (I need something that has the >original Sanskrit for the commentary) >Vedaanta-syamantaka by Baladeva Vidyabhuushana >Tattva-suutra by Bhaktivinode Thakur >Amnaya-suutra by Bhaktivinod Thakur >Bhagavat Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii >Paramaatmaa Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii >Priiti Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii >Bhakti Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii >Krishna Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii > >I also would like to know if anyone has published the so-called Krama >Sandarbha and Sarva Samvaadini, both by Jiiva. All these will be available in either Bengal or Vrndavan. The Puri Das editions are considered very good. They are out of print now, but Srivatsa Goswami of Jai Singh Gera may have them or information about how to get them. Also Try Hari Das Sastri's place at Kaliya dara, he has a printing press and has reprinted many of the Goswami's works. You may have to do with Gaudiya Vaisnava books in Sanskrit Language but Bengali script. >If you only know of books that happen to have the translation also, that is >okay. I just need books with the original Sanskrit in them. I am >specifically going to visit South India (Madras, Bangalore, Vijayawada, >Vizag) so if you know of locations in these areas that sell them, that would >be helpful. Since there is NO Gaudiya Vaisnava influence in South, I wouldn't expect to find anything there. You can try some of the South Indian branches of the big book sellers like Motilal Banarsi Das, or Oxford India Books on St Marks Road in Banagalore. If possible please visit North India and go to Munsi Ram Manohar Lal at 54 Rani Janshi Rd, New Delhi, or Motilal and Choukambha on Bungalow Rd (or Piccadilly Book Shop in Conaught Place) and in Calcutta Sanskrit Pustak Bandhar on College St. Greg Jay (G. Keshava das) From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Tue Mar 16 02:27:19 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 20:27:19 -0600 Subject: ["Barry Pittard" : Naadis] Message-ID: <161227047495.23782.9577952206483360534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Actually, Since this topic came up recently on the list it may be of interest to others also that I cite a recent publication: Barbara Rossi, _From the Ocean of Painting: India's Popular Paintings, 1589 to the Present_ (NY: Oxford Univ Press, 1998) wherein catalog entry no. 92 is a pulse (nadi) palm leaf mss. Citations in corresponding footnotes are to personal communications only [including yours truly, as an intermediary only]...so apparently nothing else has been published in English on the subject. Hope this helps, Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University & School of the Art Institute of Chicago >============== >From: "Barry Pittard" >Subject: Naadis >Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:01:50 +1000 > >I'm an Australian who has spent a number of years in India serving in >academic and social service areas. > >I'm slowly exploring the topic of naadis, the predictive readings on >palmyra (or palm) leaves purportedly authored by great ancient sages - >such as Brighu, Shuka, Shukra, Agasthya, Kousika, Koumara, Kakbhusandi, >Bhoga, Pullipani, Vashista, Vishwamitra, etc. > >Even the slightest bits of information help me to "jigsaw" a larger >picture together. I want to make contact with anyone who knows any shred >of information about these leaves - addresses of naadi jyothishas >(readers), and experiences - convincing or otherwise - of any one who >has ever consulted these leaves. > >Barry Pittard From v.k.kumar at EXCITE.COM Tue Mar 16 05:59:46 1999 From: v.k.kumar at EXCITE.COM (keerthi kumar) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 21:59:46 -0800 Subject: Dravidian: Mother of Indo... Message-ID: <161227047500.23782.10025540085114856538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dhanesh Kumar, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Yes it is the same author, but I am afraid you have my titles mixed up. The Sumerians: 'Their True Identity and the Evidences for it' was the tittle of my first work. 'Discovery of Cryptography' was the tittle of my second work. Discovery of Dravidian as the Common Source of Indo-European is the tittle of my third work which I hosted on the web (http://www.datanumeric/dravidian) on Feb.25,99. This perhaps will be my last work since have covered the Dravidian phenomenon from the earliest times (The Sumerians) to the present. Please do look it up if you find some time. I believe that I have written it as simple as the subject can be treated, especially since most (or almost all) Dravidian scholars do not have any idea about the European lingustic aspect in its dravidian context. If you have any questions please ask me before you venture to discuss it with other scholars because we have to be extremely carefull as to what we say since the subject concerns most sensitive aspect of India, the Indians, and the total Indian phenomenon. Some scholars are saying hat this last work is the greatest detecttve work of the present millennium if not since Panini (aout 500 BC.). Some European scholars ae aghast at the thought of the Dravidians being their forefathers. But the linguistic evidence I have illustrated is solid and on accepted scientific basis. In order to deny the evidence, they will have to deny what they have done so far in Linguistics! The safe thing for them for the time bein is to keep quiet, and sme have kept quiet, but I have the copyright!. As may have already noticed in the Acknowledgements of the above noted work, I have kept my promise and have dedicated the work to sme scholars in Dallas who have contributed if not to this work but to others, as you well know. I mentioned some scholars in St.paul in my work concerning Cryptography which also you know. I assume that you got the web site code of this work from those scholars in dallas. I thought they would. I am glad they did. Please keep in contact with them constantly for my sake. On a personal note: I will talk to you later on E-mail. With best regards (and also on a personal note hugs and kisses). V.Keerthi Kumar. On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:30:41 EST, Keerthi Kumar wrote: > I have read about this mind boggling phenomenon before. Are you the same > author who wrote of The Dravidian and their identity? Fascinating. Simply > fascinating. Please reply to this address. Love to here from you. I will > access your new site with your new address. Thanks and as always I am still > here! > > With best Regards, > > Dhanesh Kumar. _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Mar 15 17:49:40 1999 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 22:49:40 +0500 Subject: Kalaapa Message-ID: <161227047477.23782.18021556135507935032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Kalyanaraman wrote: >>>The transform p~~h is common in Kannada. It will be of interest to trace >>> the old forms of kalaham = disurbance, fight... > >however, this Kannada change is occurs only c. 900/1000 AD (Drav. >specialists please tell us) . The Skt word kalaha, however, is attested >already in the Upanisads, c. 500 BCE... and Skt kalaha thus cannot come >from Kannada. Yes. Kannada change of p to h is during the historic period, i.e 10th century. It cannot be a borrowing from Kannada. Burrow in Dravidian Studies VII traced Skt. kalanka- (51), kalaha (54), kalaapa (56) to the group of forms to be reconstructed as *kal-a (DEDR 1303, 1299). In the last chapter of Sanskrit Lanaguge, he added Skt. kalu.sa- to this group. Ta. kalaavu, kalaay 'to be displeased, to get angry, quarrel' have a long derivative vowel which looks to an underlying laryngeal *kal-aH-wu/-y, in which case h in kalaha- could be a reflex of a PD laryngeal. Only Old Tamil has long -aa in the derivative syllable. I have to look for parallel loan words with h preserved in Skt. pa.taha- (186) is the other in Borrow'a list, but I cannot see anything to support a laryngeal there.There are several alleged borrowings in Skt. with aspirated stops corresponding to unaspirated ones in Drav. >And Burrow -Emeneau's DEDR 1303 Tam. KalaGku, kalApa 'to be stirred up, >agitated, confused', etc. has only the Kan. entries kala(G)ku 'perturb' >etc., ... kaluhe 'turbidness', not kalaha. > >If there is a connection it must be via another Drav. language: for example >Gondi kallih, Kurukh xalaxnA 'disturb, confuse' etc." (DEDR 1303)> Gondi -h <-s is a kind of causative suffix; ND x is a regular development of PD *k when not followed by high front vowels. >None of which is entirely satifactory for an Up. time word kalaha- >Perhaps the Dravidian specialists can enlighten us here? I wrote a full-fledged paper on PD laryngeal; it surfaces as aaydam (a h-type of sound)in Early Tamil and as h in some of the other Dravidian lgs. Prof. Witzel, see if you can get hold of a copy of PILC Journal of Dravidic Studies 7:1 (1997; actually out in 1998 March).(PILC=Pondicherry Inst of Lg and Culture). Turner 's CDIAL 2922 returns it only from Mahabharata, and compares Prakrt, >and from Panjabi and Nepali to Marathi and Sinhala; but note that the word >even occurs in Nuristani (Kafiri): kelE, keele (here, e= schwa, E = e). >Should we suppose a Drav. origin of the word in those isolated languages >as well? Possible via MIA >Mayrhofer EWA (new ed. 1986-1996, of his etym. dict. of Skt) vol. I p. 321 >says : >kalaha-- Up.+, kalahin- GRhyaSUtra, Up., "not explained"; >and refers to older Drav. and Munda explanations, in part onomatopoetic. >If the "root" of these words is onomatopoetic, there is little chance to >pin down the exact source. In addition, the texts/languages in question are >first attested at different times : Up. 500 BCE, Tamil begin of CE, Munda >and Kafiri only for the past 100 years or so. -- However, since similar >words (kala-) occur in all great language families of S. Asia, one may >suppose an old S.Asian expression,taken over into all languages concerned. >-- Pretty useless in case of an onomatopoetikon. I think *kal represents several homophonous roots giving rise to different groups of words: 'noise' (1302), 'mix, join' (1299), 'learn'(1297), 'stone' (1298),'to accrue, grow' (1300, 1310), 'disturb, agitate,stir up, quarrel' (1303)[both Skt. kalaha- and kalu.sa- seem to belong here]. >Last point : if kala- is onomatopoetic, the Tamil etc word kalApa 'peacock >feather/tail ' may, just may be a loan translation from Munda where >mara('k) 'peacock' belongs to the root 'to cry'. Burrow (1948) gives the meaning 'bundle' as the basis of semantic connection with 'peacock's tail' and compares it with Ta. Ma. Ka. kalappu'collection of things, mass' etc.(1299). Bh.K. ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 (A.P.), India Telephone:40-7019665 E-mail: From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Mar 16 01:47:48 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 01:47:48 +0000 Subject: Year of Sanskrit 1999-2000 Message-ID: <161227047480.23782.17971053927956137532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, The year 1999-2000 is proposed to be celebrated as the year of Sanskrit. Some references which may be of interest, in the context of the dawn of 52nd century of Kaliyuga on March 18, 1999 are at: http://www.hindunet.org/hssworld/all/yugaadi/ Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR Tue Mar 16 06:16:10 1999 From: nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR (Jadranka Schauer) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 07:16:10 +0100 Subject: Interested in Gaudiya Vaishnava books Message-ID: <161227047502.23782.1512921798492255811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear krishna susarla, i wish you could just come to vrindaban, because it is 100% possible to find it there, http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9812/WD09-2639.html ys, yashoda dd Greg Jay wrote: > Dear Krishna Susarla, namaskaram > > >Govinda-bhaashya by Baladeva Vidyabhuushana (I need something that has the > >original Sanskrit for the commentary) > >Vedaanta-syamantaka by Baladeva Vidyabhuushana > >Tattva-suutra by Bhaktivinode Thakur > >Amnaya-suutra by Bhaktivinod Thakur > >Bhagavat Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii > >Paramaatmaa Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii > >Priiti Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii > >Bhakti Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii > >Krishna Sandarbha by Jiiva Gosvaamii > > > >I also would like to know if anyone has published the so-called Krama > >Sandarbha and Sarva Samvaadini, both by Jiiva. > > All these will be available in either Bengal or Vrndavan. The Puri Das > editions are considered very good. They are out of print now, but Srivatsa > Goswami of Jai Singh Gera may have them or information about how to get > them. Also Try Hari Das Sastri's place at Kaliya dara, he has a printing > press and has reprinted many of the Goswami's works. You may have to do > with Gaudiya Vaisnava books in Sanskrit Language but Bengali script. > > >If you only know of books that happen to have the translation also, that is > >okay. I just need books with the original Sanskrit in them. I am > >specifically going to visit South India (Madras, Bangalore, Vijayawada, > >Vizag) so if you know of locations in these areas that sell them, that would > >be helpful. > > Since there is NO Gaudiya Vaisnava influence in South, I wouldn't expect to > find anything there. You can try some of the South Indian branches of the > big book sellers like Motilal Banarsi Das, or Oxford India Books on St > Marks Road in Banagalore. If possible please visit North India and go to > Munsi Ram Manohar Lal at 54 Rani Janshi Rd, New Delhi, or Motilal and > Choukambha on Bungalow Rd (or Piccadilly Book Shop in Conaught Place) and > in Calcutta Sanskrit Pustak Bandhar on College St. > > Greg Jay > (G. Keshava das) ? From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Mar 16 07:49:06 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 07:49:06 +0000 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization; funerary pottery evidence Message-ID: <161227047493.23782.3899436352667335057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> " wrote:> In relation to the peacock and the dotted circles, I would like to draw> your attention to the Tamil word "poRi" which means dot/spot as well as the> eye of the peacock's feather and the feather itself... Dear Chandrasekaran, thanks a lot for the insight. We may perhaps, be very close to understanding the significance of the 'trefoil' motif; this is indeed a dominant, almost reverential motif in the Harappan culture, as it recurs: (1) On the uttari_yam of a 'priest',the ancient form of the homonym may be close to 'poRRi', priest; cf. later uses in Tamil of pORRi = to laud; Ta. poRkai = right-shoulder bare! (2) On a pedestal which could have held some type of icon (lin:gam?), the equivalence may be to some early forms of semes recorded in DEDR 4283: Kota. por = first offering of food to god in pabm ceremony; Ta. pura (-pp-, -tt-) = reverence; Ka. pore = to nourish... (3) On the so-called 'device' (which is, perhaps, a depiction of a portable furnace, also a gimlet used to incise into, say, seals; cf. Ta. poRi = to inscribe!) normally in front of the so-called 'unicorn', the early form of a homonym may be related to: Ta. pori = bake on live coals; Ma. pori = a spark (DEDR 4537); cf. also Tu. burma = gimlet; perevuni = to be perforated. The imagery of a peacock,viewed together with the trefoil motif, on a funerary urn, may perhaps, be related to an ancient form of the lexemes:Santali. marak = peacock; Skt. mayu_ra; with an ancient form of a homonym relatable to: Parji. marp- (mart-)= to lighten; Kurux. merxa_ = sky, heaven; Malto. mergu = sky, heaven; see Te. mer_umu = flash of lightning. Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From mgansten at SBBS.SE Tue Mar 16 06:58:01 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 07:58:01 +0100 Subject: ["Barry Pittard" : Naadis] Message-ID: <161227047505.23782.5729794548201587135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Barbara Rossi, _From the Ocean of Painting: India's Popular Paintings, 1589 >to the Present_ (NY: Oxford Univ Press, 1998) >wherein catalog entry no. 92 is a pulse (nadi) palm leaf mss. Citations in >corresponding footnotes are to personal communications only [including >yours truly, as an intermediary only]...so apparently nothing else has been >published in English on the subject. To my knowledge, that is correct. I am working on a Ph.D. diss. on the subject of naa.dii-jyoti.sa (despite the name no connection to pulse reading, so far as I know), but that won't be out until 3-4 years from now at the earliest. (And yes: I am in contact with Barry Pittard.) If anyone knows of any scholarly publication on this subject, in whatever language, I'd be very interested to hear of it. Regards, Martin Gansten From nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU Tue Mar 16 15:45:05 1999 From: nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 09:45:05 -0600 Subject: Conference Announcement Message-ID: <161227047508.23782.6169899196643786900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Members of the list may be interested in the following: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Mar 16 16:49:51 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 11:49:51 -0500 Subject: Dravidian: Mother of Indo... In-Reply-To: <921563986.2876.386@excite.com> Message-ID: <161227047511.23782.12056408069136380314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri Kumar, I just read your thesis on the Dravidian origin of IE with the examples. It's impressive. There are several typos that need correction. I am not a linguist, but I don't understand why should a thesis blame anyone for neglect. Lack of knowledge is not neglect, but an expression of ignorance. Some of the paragraphs may be redone to make the thesis more focused. Regards, Bijoy Misra On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, keerthi kumar wrote: > Cryptography' was the tittle of my second work. Discovery of Dravidian as > the Common Source of Indo-European is the tittle of my third work which I > hosted on the web (http://www.datanumeric/dravidian) on Feb.25,99. This > perhaps will be my last work since have covered the Dravidian phenomenon > from the earliest times (The Sumerians) to the present. Please do look it up > if you find some time. From KMalkawi at AOL.COM Tue Mar 16 18:00:29 1999 From: KMalkawi at AOL.COM (Katharina Malkawi) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 13:00:29 -0500 Subject: gujarati Message-ID: <161227047513.23782.3432172431822715071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am working about a Gujarati drama (:translation and background in the Gujarati drama history). I seek for help or interest in Gujarati as language aswell as material supporting my work. Thank you for any efforts. From hjm at UVIC.CA Tue Mar 16 23:29:16 1999 From: hjm at UVIC.CA (Heather MacDonald) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 16:29:16 -0700 Subject: South Asia Popular Culture Conference Message-ID: <161227047525.23782.11771370737289881635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The University of Victoria's > Centre for Asia-Pacific Initiatives and Faculty of Fine Arts > present > Round Three of the Asia Popular Culture Conference Series > >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >+ > > The South Asia Popular Culture Conference > April 22-24, 1999 > Cadboro Commons Conference Centre > University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, Canada > >This year's Annual Asian Popular Culture Conference will focus on >Bangladesh, India, Nepal, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka - South Asia! A rich >program of paper presentations and activities promises to make this an >exciting event for anyone with an interest in South Asian Popular Culture. > >Genres and topics covered will include music, cinema, television, the >visual arts, literature, comics, fashion, religion, gender issues, >national identities, and the diaspora. > >To view the Conference Program and for detailed information on >Accommodation, Transportation, and Registration, please refer to the >Conference Website: > > http://web.uvic.ca/hrd/capipopcult > >or contact > >Heather MacDonald >Conference Coordinator >Centre for Asia-Pacific Initiatives >Begbie Building, Room 131 >University of Victoria, Box 1700 >Victoria, BC, Canada V8W 2Y2 >Telephone: (250) 721-7022 >Fax: (250) 721-3107 >E-Mail: hjm at uvic.ca ___________________________________________________ Heather J. MacDonald Centre for Asia-Pacific Initiatives South Asian Popular Culture Conference Coordinator Tel: (250) 721-7023 Fax: (250) 721-3107 Website: http://www.capi.uvic.ca ___________________________________________________ From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 16 22:40:12 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 17:40:12 -0500 Subject: syAla/zyAla in BORI mahabharata Message-ID: <161227047522.23782.224711953027632427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Belvalkar (1962 edition), Dr. Van Buitenen "Bhagavadgita in Mahabharata", and On-line BORI Mahabharata courtesy of Dr. J.D. Smith use "syAla" in Bhagavadgita verse 1.37. All the popular editions including Radhakrishnan use "zyAla". Dr. Belvalkar does not list "zyAla" as a variation. Monier-Williams has an entry only under "syAla" but which contains the note "(also written %{zyAla}, of doubtful derivation)". Apte has an entry under "zyAla". Under "syAla" he has "see zyAla". The on-line B.O.R.I. Mahabharata uses both spellings but each book is internally self-consistent using either one or the others follows: Book 1 "zyAla" lines 01197021a Book 3 "zyAla" lines 03011026a Book 4 "syAla" lines 04017007c Book 5 "zyAla" lines 05056022c Book 6 "syAla" lines 06023034c, 06078056c, 07029009a Book 7 "syAla" lines 07029009a, 07096036a, 07131017e,07132019a, 07144006a, 07144012c Book 8 "syAla" lines 08004039a, 08018021c, 08018023a Can someone tell me: 1) What this spelling variation represents? 2) Does the internally consistent usage in each book of the mahabharata represent an editorial decision (different for different books) ? 3) Why Belvalkar does not list "zyAla" as a variation? Does BORI 1947 make any mention of it? Thank you Harry Spier Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Mar 17 00:18:36 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 19:18:36 -0500 Subject: Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa and MaNimEkalai Message-ID: <161227047523.23782.7646536387522333178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 3/5/99 12:53:38 PM Central Standard Time, lengqie at GMX.NET writes: > But i suppose that it is possible that it can be due to simple reason > - that the history in AMMK is spoken > as prophecy from the mouth of Buddha and it may not be related > author's location. The author's original location, the location where the text was written, and the location where the manuscript was discovered can all be different. Regarding tAmraparNi, see Shu Hikosaka's "Buddhism in Tamilnadu: A New Perspective", p. 189, where he suggests that the mountain/place and the river may have been named so by Buddhist monks from Ceylon. More interesting thing is what I found in "Cosmography and Geography in Early Indian Literature" by D. C. Sircar, p.123. In the section on extracts from Ptolemy's Geography, there is a list of places in the Country of Aioi (the Ay country around Potiyil mountain). One place is called elangkon or elangkor. In Tamil, "i" cannot occur in word-initial position. So often in borrowed words "i" is added in front. Sanskrit lankA will become Tamil ilagkai. The alternation of word-initial "i" with "e" has been discussed in the list already. So Ptolemy's "elangkor/elangkon" may represent a possible lankA on the Kerala coast near Potiyil. We do have another "ilagkai" in the Tamil region attested in CT texts. So naming Tamil places after lankA is not improbable. But we do not have the name lankA occurring in CT texts corresponding to any place on the Kerala coast. But then Buddhists seem to have their own names for referring to places which normally were known by different names. For instance, the Chola city pukAr was called kAkanti by maNimEkalai. It may be worth going through Ptolemy's work to research this further. Regards S. Palaniappan From boudalfa at STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Tue Mar 16 20:44:18 1999 From: boudalfa at STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Heike Boudalfa) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 21:44:18 +0100 Subject: sanskrit Message-ID: <161227047520.23782.14229374632778953437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Has anybody studied sanskrit in India? I want to go there this summer for a month and I am looking for addresses of universities, language schools or even competent private teachers who offer summer courses (4 weeks or so) in sanskrit. Since I have already studied sanskrit for a year, I am not a complete beginner. I'd be most grateful if anybody could help me. Thank you very much Heike Boudalfa From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Mar 17 03:07:54 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 22:07:54 -0500 Subject: Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa and MaNimEkalai Message-ID: <161227047533.23782.11446662607776269926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 3/16/99 7:19:01 PM Central Standard Time, Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM writes: > Palaniappan, there is a type here, I suppose. > you must be meaning that a Tamil word cannot begin > with "l" (as in "laGkA") not "i". Yes. That was a typo. Thanks for the correction. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Mar 17 03:17:42 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 22:17:42 -0500 Subject: hAlAsyapurANa and hAlAsyarahasya Message-ID: <161227047537.23782.15128639970055148546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody have access to the Sanskrit texts, hAlAsyapurANa and hAlAsyarahasya? I need a few lines from those texts. You can reply to me off the list. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Mar 17 03:36:33 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 22:36:33 -0500 Subject: Kalaapa In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990315222412.2eaf0ee0@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227047539.23782.15874644177709117161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 22:49 +0500 3/15/99, Bh.Krishnamurti wrote: ... Thanks for straightening me out on some of the P-Drav. and N/CentralDrav. words! and to C.R. Selvakumar for further examples. PS: I forgot to mention that Kalaapa is already attested in Panini (whenever he actually lived); Kalpaapa is the name of hte founder of a Black Yajurveda school (that of the MaitrAyaNIya), mentioned by him next to that of the KaTha and Caraka. Bird names for Vedic teachers are not altgether rare (see Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik, vol. 10 (1983/85), pp. 231-237), e.g. Tittiri: TaittirIya, Haridru : Haridravika, etc. More on bird, souls, urns, etc . later. MW. ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Mar 17 00:30:09 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 00:30:09 +0000 Subject: Dravidian: Mother of Indo-European.. Message-ID: <161227047515.23782.13340317350602195258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy Misra wrote:> > I am not a linguist, but I don't understand why should > a thesis blame anyone for neglect. Lack of knowledge > is not neglect, but an expression of ignorance. I suppose one can express a different point of view without 'blaming' others. Dr. Keerthi Kumar should be complimented for bringing a breath of fresh air into the study of semantics(http://www.datanumeric.com/dravidian/)DISCOVERY OF DRAVIDIAN AS THE COMMON SOURCE OF INDO-EUROPEAN "...we not only witnessed Dravidian birthmarks on Indo-European in the shape of phonetic correspondences, but the testimonies of not a handful but more than four hundred and fifty Indo-European root-words is not to prove the same fact again and again but to demonstrate and illustrate the great antiquity, endurance, and importance of Dravidian..." (p.83) The following are the principal sources used or IE examples: (1) JS: The Origins of English Words: A discursive Dictionary of Indo-European Roots, By Joseph T. Shipley; The Johns Hopkins University Press; Baltimore, London, 1982. (2) Pei: The Families of Words by Mario Pei; Harper & Brothers, New York, 1962. I do not know how representative these works are of IE linguistic studies. >From a study of the Indo-Aryan, Munda and Dravidian lexemes in over 8000 groups,it appears that as many as 4000 DEDR 'etyma' have concordant lexemes in the other two language families, perhaps derived from common roots or semes. These semantic groups tend to confirm the remarkable observations of Keerthi Kumar. (http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/Indian%20Lexicon/00000semcluster1.htm) Would this be adequate evidence to claim that Dravidian is the mother tongue? May be a thousand flowers bloomed at once; many language families are of great antiquity. Regards, Dr. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 17 15:32:30 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 07:32:30 -0800 Subject: Kalaapa Message-ID: <161227047547.23782.18314578573670387595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 12 Mar 1999 Mr. S. Kalyanaraman wrote: >>The transform p~~h is common in Kannada. It will be of interest to >>trace the old forms of kalaham = disurbance, fight... p-h transformations are common in Kannada and Tamil in the word-initial positions; eg., pAl - hAlu (milk); pavaLam - havaLa (coral); pal - hallu (tooth) ... Does this happen in the middle of a word also between tamil and kannada? kalApam - kalaham? Ta. kalakam, from the verb, 'kala' (to mix, join), is pronounced as 'kalaham'. Then, is the Sanskrit word, kalaham related to Tamil? Like vaLAkam (front yard, mall) is spoken as vaLAham and so on. Regards, V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From oguibeni at MONZA.U-STRASBG.FR Wed Mar 17 11:14:18 1999 From: oguibeni at MONZA.U-STRASBG.FR (Oguibenine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 12:14:18 +0100 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227047545.23782.15556505208913061759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I forward this message at the request of the undersigned although it does not belong to properly Indological matters (but to a field not alien to Indologists because of the formerly known Buddhist sites!). Return-Path: X-Sender: olffnath at mailserver.u-strasbg.fr Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:41:15 +0100 From: josiane.olff-nathan at gersulp.u-strasbg.fr (Josiane Olff-Nathan) Subject: Women in Afghanistan Please spare a minute to read this mail. Thank you. The government of Afghanistan is waging a war upon women. The situation is getting so bad that one person in an editorial of the Times compared the treatment of women there to the treatment of Jews in pre-Holocaust Poland. Since the Taliban took power in 1996, women have had to wear burqua and have been beaten and stoned in public for not having the proper attire, even if this means simply not having the mesh covering in front of their eyes. One woman was beaten to DEATH by an angry mob of fundamentalists for accidentally exposing her arm while she was driving. Another was stoned to death for trying to leave the country with a man that was not a relative. Women are not allowed to work or even go out in public without a male relative; professional women such as professors, translators, doctors, lawyers, artists and writers have been forced from their jobs and stuffed into their homes, so that depression is becoming so widespread that it has reached emergency levels. There is no way in such an extreme Islamic society to know the suicide rate with certainty, but relief workers are estimating that the suicide rate among women, who cannot find proper medication and treatment for severe depression and would rather take their lives than live in such conditions, has increased significantly. Homes where a woman is present must have their windows painted so that she can never be seen by outsiders. They must wear silent shoes so that they are never heard. Women live in fear of their lives for the slightest misbehavior. Because they cannot work, those without male relatives or husbands are either starving to death or begging on the street, even if they hold Ph.D.'s. There are almost no medical facilities available for women, and relief workers, in protest, have mostly left the country, taking medicine and psychologists and other things necessary to treat the sky-rocketing level of depression among women. At one of the rare hospitals for women, a reporter found still, nearly lifeless bodies lying motionless on top of beds, wrapped in their burqua, unwilling to speak, eat, or do anything, but slowly wasting away. Others have gone mad and were seen crouched in corners, perpetually rocking or crying, most of them in fear. One doctor is considering, when what little medication that is left finally runs out, leaving these women in front of the president's residence as a form of peaceful protest. It is at the point where the term 'human rights violations' has become an understatement. Husbands have the power of life and death over their women relatives, especially their wives, but an angry mob has just as much right to stone or beat a woman, often to death, for exposing an inch of flesh or offending them in the slightest way. David Cornwell has said that those in the West should not judge the Afghan people for such treatment because it is a 'cultural thing', but this is not even true. Women enjoyed relative freedom, to work, dress generally as they wanted, and drive and appear in public alone until only 1996 -- the rapidity of this transition is the main reason for the depression and suicide; women who were once educators or doctors or simply used to basic human freedoms are now severely restricted and treated as sub-human in the name of right-wing fundamentalist Islam. It is not their tradition or 'culture', but is alien to them, and it is extreme even for those cultures where fundamentalism is the rule. Besides, if we could excuse everything on cultural grounds, then we should not be appalled that the Carthaginians sacrificed their infant children, that little girls are circumcised in parts of Africa, that blacks in the US deep south in the 1930's were lynched, prohibited from voting, and forced to submit to unjust Jim Crow laws. Everyone has a right to a tolerable human existence, even if they are women in a Muslim country in a part of the world that Westerners may not understand. If we can threaten military force in Kosovo in the name of human rights for the sake of ethnic Albanians, then NATO and the West can certainly express peaceful outrage at the oppression, murder and injustice committed against women by the Taliban. > > ************* > STATEMENT: In signing this, we agree that the current treatment of women in Afghanistan is completely UNACCEPTABLE and deserves support and action by the people of the United Nations and that the current situation in Afghanistan will not be tolerated. Women's Rights is not a small issue anywhere and it is UNACCEPTABLE for women in 1998 to be treated as sub-human and so much as property. Equality and human decency is a RIGHT not a freedom, whether one lives in Afghanistan or anywhere else. > ***** > 1) Bruce J. Malina, Omaha, NE > 2) Raymond Hobbs, Hamilton, ON, Canada > 3) Elizabeth Demaray, Kanata, ON, Canada > 4) Fred Demaray, Kanata, ON, Canada > 5) Leslie Penrose, Tulsa, OK > 6) Susan Ross, Perkins, OK > 7) Jeannie Himes, Tulsa, OK > 8) Lois Adams, Tulsa, OK > 9) Mona M. Miller, Fort Collins, CO > 10) Kara A. Sheldon, Colorado Springs, CO > 11) Gay Victoria, Colorado Springs, CO > 12) Catherine Euler, Leeds, UK > 13) Faith Muimo, Leeds, UK > 14) Sanna Vehvil?inen, Helsinki, Finland > 15) Jussi Onnismaa, Helsinki. Finland > 16) Marjatta Hahkio, Helsinki, Finland > 17) Jouko Hahkio, Helsinki, Finland > 18) Colin Sydes, Helsinki, Finland 19) Gavin Cowie, Helsinki, Finland 20) Andrew Walker, London, UK 21 Roberto Battista, London, UK 22) Richard Wolfstrome, Brighton, UK 23) Louise Jorden, London, UK 24) Jonny Shipp, Brighton, UK 25) Gabriel de Kadt, Brighton, UK 26) Emanuel de Kadt, Brighton, UK 27) Dominique Egger, Geneva, CH 28) Jean louis BARA, Colmar, FR 29) Rodolphe Echard, Colmar, FR 30) Josiane Olff-Nathan, Strasbourg, France 31) Boris Oguibenine, Strasbourg, France > **** Please sign to support, and include your town and country. Then > copy and e-mail to as many people as possible. If you receive this > list with more than 50 names on it, please e-mail a copy of it to: > > Mary Robinson, > High Commissioner, > UNHCHR, > webadmin.hchr at unorg.ch > > and to: > > Angela King, > Special Advisor on Gender Issues and the Advancement of Women, > UN, > daw at undp.org > > Even if you decide not to sign, please be considerate and do not kill > the petition. Thank you. > > It is best to copy rather than forward the petition. Josiane Olff-Nathan Groupe d'Etude et de Recherche sur la Science de l'Universite Louis Pasteur 7, rue de l'Universite 67000 - Strasbourg (France) Tel : +33 (0)3 88 52 80 60 Fax : +33 (0)3 88 52 80 57 Email : josiane.olff-nathan at gersulp.u-strasbg.fr From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Wed Mar 17 18:11:54 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 13:11:54 -0500 Subject: Kalaapa Message-ID: <161227047552.23782.695440038605770477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [deleted] *malaipaTukaTAm: 234-5 *"........ veL vErp pIlik *kalava maJJai kaTciyil taLarin2um" *pIli = the single quill *->"even if the peacock tires in its dancing owing to the weight of its *feather of white-rooted quills [or collection of feathers] spread ..." P.L. Samy had written a book (in Tamil) entitled 'zaGka ilakkiyattil paRavaiyin2a viLakkam' (Birds in Sangam Literature). I don't have a copy of this book with me, but I remember that he explains that the word 'kaTci' means 'territory' or 'terriotrial fight'. Peacock is supposed to be a territorial bird. It appears that the words (in malaipaTukaTAm) mean 'even if the peacock loses its fight, having its white-stem quills clashing (kalava = mixing) with..' Since I don't know the context of the words in malaipaTukaTAm, I'm not sure of the meaning I've proposed except to point out that 'kaTci' can mean 'territory' or 'territorial fight'. C.R.Selvakumar * *The commentator uses the word "kalApam" to explain "kalavam"! *[..."ATutaRku viritta kalApattin2atu pArattAlE ATiyiLaittu n-iRpin2um". * *Regards *Chandra * From avouk at HPU.RPA.CS.NSW.GOV.AU Wed Mar 17 03:21:11 1999 From: avouk at HPU.RPA.CS.NSW.GOV.AU (Alex Voukelatos) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 13:21:11 +1000 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization; In-Reply-To: <19990316021907.15671.qmail@www0y.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227047530.23782.17904464207632551581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have any info on the possible connection between Harrapan/Mohenjo Daro script and the script of Easter Island??? Alex Sydney, Australia Avouk at hpu.rpa.cs.nsw.gov.au From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Mar 17 09:32:48 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 14:32:48 +0500 Subject: Tradition of Debate in India Message-ID: <161227047542.23782.6494081870123776587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 15:55 15.03.99 -0500, Alok Kumar wrote: >The tradition of Shastrath (debate) is considered to be quite old in India. >I wonder if the list members can suggest me a book/article on the history of >this tradition, especially in the ancient period. B.K. Matilal has written about "Rule of Dialectic and Debate" in his _Logic, Langauge & Reality_ (sec. 1.2). It seems that the first authors on this topic were Jainas and Buddhists, and the Nyaaya school used the same terms in slightly different senses; being more systematic, the description in the Nyaayasuutra came to carry more weight (ibid.). >Was it O.K. to question >any doctrine or concept in the ancient period? I would like know with >specific examples and references. But of course. (If nothing could be questioned, then how could any development take place?) Which period we you thinking of, more precisely, and what kind of examples? RZ From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Wed Mar 17 19:43:11 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 14:43:11 -0500 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization; funerary pottery eviden Message-ID: <161227047556.23782.10460847692855975197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Chandra's connection of 'poRi' (eye of peacock feather) is interesting. The word poRi is specifically used because it is iridescent. (poRi means shining like spark). Chandra's quote from kuRuntokai clearly shows that the word is used also for the iridescent blue neck (where there are no eye-like 'spots'). 'oL poRi' really means iridescent. [..] *"oL poRi eruttu" (kuRuntokai: 242:2) *poRi = spot; eurttu = neck (here, of a cock) * * *"poRi mayir eruttin2 kuRu naTaip pETai" (kuRuntokai:154:4) *poRi = soptted; mayir = hair; eruttu = neck *(here, of a hen) * * *"poRi mayir vAraNam" {cilappatikAram: 4:77) *poRi = spot; *mayir = feather; *vAraNam = cock It may be interesting to note that the *trefoil* seen in the Harappan pictures could mean, 'mU', meaning three, if the language is more like proto tamil/dravidian. The word 'mU' means 'three' but it also means 'old, chief, elder, wise'. The word 'mUvA' (mU + A)means 'not becoming old, without ending'. - the 'A' at the end denoting a negative. mUkkan means chief(of a tribe), mUttOr means 'elderly, wise'; mUppu means 'old age'. Therefore the meaning of 'three' and 'old,chief, wise' may have some significance. I find it interesting that in slide 162 the antelope, tentatively identified as Blackbuck, has a tail which looks like a trident (in addition to the trefoil motifs above the antelope). There seems to be some emphasis on 'three' (which could also relate to old/dead assuming proto-dravidian?) In Tamil mukkaN (mu+kaN) refers to 'three-eye' = Lord Siva. The 'circle' in the trefoil looks more like 'eye or a spot-on-peacock-feather or a leaf' with sharp end. Antelope is also associated with Siva. Siva is also connected with grave and death. (these are all purely speculative, and I'm not claiming that there is necessarily any connection) A Blackbuck is called 'marai' in Tamil. It is so called because its antler/horn has a screw-like shape (marai means twisted; the tamil word for 'twisted' is murukku). Even today it(Blackbuck) is called marai-mAn'. (I've seen Blackbucks in Indian Institute of Technology, Madras/Chennai campus; but not with three-fold tail :-)). Another name for the antelope is 'maraiyaa'. Here 'aa' means 'animal/deer'. In tamil 'mari, maRai' mean die. maarakam (Ta.) means death. Considering that motifs are in funerary urns etc., these may have some significance. Another fact is that the so-called 'mutumakkaL tAzhi' (urn where old/dead people are kept; 'mutu' here could mean old/dead) are found in Tamil Nadu. *In connection with the funerary aspects, it might be also worth *mentioning that the Tamil god murukan2 *is the lord of midnight, the last division of the day as per * the ancient akam tradition which assigns that division of the day to *kuRiJci one the five terrains. In general murukan2 is associated with *the terminal portion of events such as a concert or the temple's activities. *At big temples such as the vaittIswaran2 kOvil, the sixth and the last *pUja offering is started with murukan2's image even though he is not the *main deity of the temple. * *Even now, when a concert ends, compositions on murukan2 are sung; *not only that, these song are usaully set to pentatonic melodies *such as madhyamAvati or curuTTi associated with the kuRiJci theme *and derived from the kuRiJcip pAlai, the heptatonic parent melody. * * *Regards *Chandra. * C.R.Selvakumar From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Mar 17 21:58:09 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 16:58:09 -0500 Subject: hAlAsyapurANa and hAlAsyarahasya Message-ID: <161227047558.23782.15335930601045746760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Library of Congress has two Malayalam versions of the Halasyamahatmya, which it identifies are from the Skandhapurana. Do you have any idea where if anywhere in published versions of the Skandhapurana it might appear? Of course, many works claimed to belong to the SP are isolated works and not found in mss or printed versions of it. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. >>> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan 03/16 10:17 PM >>> Does anybody have access to the Sanskrit texts, hAlAsyapurANa and hAlAsyarahasya? I need a few lines from those texts. You can reply to me off the list. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From lslinko at IPH.RAS.RU Wed Mar 17 22:45:01 1999 From: lslinko at IPH.RAS.RU (Elena V. Slinko) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 01:45:01 +0300 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227047564.23782.9018605420612842764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> review indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Mar 18 03:18:19 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 03:18:19 +0000 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization; funerary pottery eviden Message-ID: <161227047560.23782.14210864704605634723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "C.R. Selvakumar" wrote:> > It may be interesting to note that the *trefoil* seen in > the Harappan pictures could mean, 'mU', meaning three, > if the language is more like proto tamil/dravidian. > The word 'mU' means 'three' but it also means 'old, > chief, elder, wise'... > A Blackbuck is called 'marai' in >Tamil...In tamil 'mari, maRai' mean die. maarakam >(Ta.) means >death.Considering that motifs are in funerary urns etc., >these may have >some significance... Sounds like Kuwi, Kurux and Gadaba might have almos retained the old sound-bites of the Harappan linguistic area! Let us listen to some lexemes: The old man of the statuette, has put on the upper garment: Kond.a: porpa- = to cover the body with a garment, put on an upper garment. [There is another imagery on another tablet: to uproot; Ka. porpu = to uproot]. When the phoneme for number three mu_ is used before double consonants, it becomes mu in Tamil (e.g. mummai). But, Ta. mu_ppar = elders in age; Ma. mu_ppu = old age; Te. muppu = old age. Another ancient form ca. 3000 BCE could be with Kuwi. du_ti = old; Kond.a du_ten = old man. Together with this duplicative phoneme, Br. has mutukn = old, old thing; Kod.agu has mudike = old man; Ka. has muduka, muduku = old man; Ma. muttan, mutukkan = old man; Ta. mu_tu = elderliness. [Note the homonym semantics: du. = hollow in ground at burning place where yre is built; du.e = burial ground (Kota); dukke = obsequies (Gadaba); du_ki = graveyard, crematory (Kond.a)]. On the op.cit. image, the horns on the antelope are emphatic; so are the fish; and water closeby. marag = horn, antler (Kurux.); maru_ka = a kind of deer (Skt.) [Can death be semant. connected with 'weeping'? If so, marki = to weep (Ka.)] mra_u = eel (Kui); Ta. mural = needlefish; Skt. murala. Ta. ma_ri = water, rain (Ta.); ma_ri = rain (Skt.); Malt. mehare = to be damp. We look forward to Prof. Witzel's notes on the ancient urns and peacocks... Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Mar 18 03:52:36 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 03:52:36 +0000 Subject: Obsequies and sadness Message-ID: <161227047562.23782.13119423606386592183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Would appreciate guidance on the etyma related to Skt. duhka, sadness and earlier IE forms. Could this be a semant. elaboration related to Gadaba. dukke = obsequies? Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 18 13:30:19 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 05:30:19 -0800 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047572.23782.6854986462808284548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The name of the River Krishna in AP in old times appears to have been called something cognate with the Tamil "karum peNNai"; 'karum' refers to black color and 'peNNai' means palm tree. We have vaTa(north) and ten2(south) peNNai rivers. In medieval times, it looks "karum peNNai/peNNaar" was rendered as KrishnaveNi, and later shortened to Krishna. Does Telugu material or Kalingattup paraNi support this? Also, 'nalla' means black in Telugu. Does Krishna (*karum* peNNai/peNNAr) have anything to do with *Nalla*malai hills which have dark iron ore, mica.?? Thanks, V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From oblivion at CHIANTINET.IT Thu Mar 18 06:52:09 1999 From: oblivion at CHIANTINET.IT (Stephen Roach & Fabrizia Baldissera) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 07:52:09 +0100 Subject: Message-ID: <161227047591.23782.10184048009291765197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree with the signing of the petition! Fabrizia baldissera, University of Florence, Italy ---------- >From: Oguibenine >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date: Mer, 17 mar 1999 12:14 > >I forward this message at the request of the undersigned although it does >not belong to properly Indological matters (but to a field not alien to >Indologists because of the formerly known Buddhist sites!). > >Return-Path: >X-Sender: olffnath at mailserver.u-strasbg.fr >Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:41:15 +0100 >From: josiane.olff-nathan at gersulp.u-strasbg.fr (Josiane Olff-Nathan) >Subject: Women in Afghanistan > >Please spare a minute to read this mail. Thank you. > >The government of Afghanistan is waging a war upon women. The situation is >getting so bad that one person in an editorial of the Times compared the >treatment of women there to the treatment of Jews in pre-Holocaust Poland. >Since the Taliban took power in 1996, women have had to wear burqua and >have been beaten and stoned in public for not having the proper attire, >even if this means simply not having the mesh covering in front of their >eyes. One woman was beaten to DEATH by an angry mob of fundamentalists for >accidentally exposing her arm while she was driving. Another was stoned to >death for trying to leave the country with a man that was not a relative. >Women are not allowed to work or even go out in public without a male >relative; professional women such as professors, translators, doctors, >lawyers, artists and writers have been forced from their jobs and stuffed >into their homes, so that depression is becoming so widespread that it has >reached emergency levels. There is no way in such an extreme Islamic >society to know the suicide rate with certainty, but relief workers are >estimating that the suicide rate among women, who cannot find proper >medication and treatment for severe depression and would rather take their >lives than live in such conditions, has increased significantly. Homes >where a woman is present must have their windows painted so that she can >never be seen by outsiders. They must wear silent shoes so that they are >never heard. Women live in fear of their lives for the slightest >misbehavior. Because they cannot work, those without male relatives or >husbands are either starving to death or begging on the street, even if >they hold Ph.D.'s. There are almost no medical facilities available for >women, and relief workers, in protest, have mostly left the country, taking >medicine and psychologists and other things necessary to treat the >sky-rocketing level of depression among women. At one of the rare hospitals >for women, a reporter found still, nearly lifeless bodies lying motionless >on top of beds, wrapped in their burqua, unwilling to speak, eat, or do >anything, but slowly wasting away. Others have gone mad and were seen >crouched in corners, perpetually rocking or crying, most of them in fear. >One doctor is considering, when what little medication that is left finally >runs out, leaving these women in front of the president's residence as a >form of peaceful protest. It is at the point where the term 'human rights >violations' has become an understatement. Husbands have the power of life >and death over their women relatives, especially their wives, but an angry >mob has just as much right to stone or beat a woman, often to death, for >exposing an inch of flesh or offending them in the slightest way. David >Cornwell has said that those in the West should not judge the Afghan people >for such treatment because it is a 'cultural thing', but this is not even >true. Women enjoyed relative freedom, to work, dress generally as they >wanted, and drive and appear in public alone until only 1996 -- the >rapidity of this transition is the main reason for the depression and >suicide; women who were once educators or doctors or simply used to basic >human freedoms are now severely restricted and treated as sub-human in the >name of right-wing fundamentalist Islam. It is not their tradition or >'culture', but is alien to them, and it is extreme even for those cultures >where fundamentalism is the rule. Besides, if we could excuse everything on >cultural grounds, then we should not be appalled that the Carthaginians >sacrificed their infant children, that little girls are circumcised in >parts of Africa, that blacks in the US deep south in the 1930's were >lynched, prohibited from voting, and forced to submit to unjust Jim Crow >laws. Everyone has a right to a tolerable human existence, even if they are >women in a Muslim country in a part of the world that Westerners may not >understand. If we can threaten military force in Kosovo in the name of >human rights for the sake of ethnic Albanians, then NATO and the West can >certainly express peaceful outrage at the oppression, murder and injustice >committed against women by the Taliban. >> >> ************* >> STATEMENT: In signing this, we agree that the current treatment of women >in Afghanistan is completely UNACCEPTABLE and deserves support and action >by the people of the United Nations and that the current situation in >Afghanistan will not be tolerated. Women's Rights is not a small issue >anywhere and it is UNACCEPTABLE for women in 1998 to be treated as >sub-human and so much as property. Equality and human decency is a RIGHT >not a freedom, whether one lives in Afghanistan or anywhere else. >> ***** >> 1) Bruce J. Malina, Omaha, NE >> 2) Raymond Hobbs, Hamilton, ON, Canada >> 3) Elizabeth Demaray, Kanata, ON, Canada >> 4) Fred Demaray, Kanata, ON, Canada >> 5) Leslie Penrose, Tulsa, OK >> 6) Susan Ross, Perkins, OK >> 7) Jeannie Himes, Tulsa, OK >> 8) Lois Adams, Tulsa, OK >> 9) Mona M. Miller, Fort Collins, CO >> 10) Kara A. Sheldon, Colorado Springs, CO >> 11) Gay Victoria, Colorado Springs, CO >> 12) Catherine Euler, Leeds, UK >> 13) Faith Muimo, Leeds, UK >> 14) Sanna Vehvil?inen, Helsinki, Finland >> 15) Jussi Onnismaa, Helsinki. Finland >> 16) Marjatta Hahkio, Helsinki, Finland >> 17) Jouko Hahkio, Helsinki, Finland >> 18) Colin Sydes, Helsinki, Finland >19) Gavin Cowie, Helsinki, Finland >20) Andrew Walker, London, UK >21 Roberto Battista, London, UK >22) Richard Wolfstrome, Brighton, UK >23) Louise Jorden, London, UK >24) Jonny Shipp, Brighton, UK >25) Gabriel de Kadt, Brighton, UK >26) Emanuel de Kadt, Brighton, UK >27) Dominique Egger, Geneva, CH >28) Jean louis BARA, Colmar, FR >29) Rodolphe Echard, Colmar, FR >30) Josiane Olff-Nathan, Strasbourg, France >31) Boris Oguibenine, Strasbourg, France >> **** Please sign to support, and include your town and country. Then >> copy and e-mail to as many people as possible. If you receive this >> list with more than 50 names on it, please e-mail a copy of it to: >> >> Mary Robinson, >> High Commissioner, >> UNHCHR, >> webadmin.hchr at unorg.ch >> >> and to: >> >> Angela King, >> Special Advisor on Gender Issues and the Advancement of Women, >> UN, >> daw at undp.org >> >> Even if you decide not to sign, please be considerate and do not kill >> the petition. Thank you. >> >> It is best to copy rather than forward the petition. > >Josiane Olff-Nathan >Groupe d'Etude et de Recherche sur la Science de l'Universite Louis Pasteur >7, rue de l'Universite >67000 - Strasbourg (France) >Tel : +33 (0)3 88 52 80 60 >Fax : +33 (0)3 88 52 80 57 >Email : josiane.olff-nathan at gersulp.u-strasbg.fr > From hart at POLBOX.COM Thu Mar 18 09:08:05 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 10:08:05 +0100 Subject: Women in Afghanistan In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990317121418.006a3158@ushs.u-strasbg.fr> Message-ID: <161227047574.23782.2601756319966616503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:14 17.03.99 +0100, you wrote: >I forward this message at the request of the undersigned although it does >not belong to properly Indological matters (but to a field not alien to >Indologists because of the formerly known Buddhist sites!). > >Return-Path: >X-Sender: olffnath at mailserver.u-strasbg.fr >Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:41:15 +0100 >From: josiane.olff-nathan at gersulp.u-strasbg.fr (Josiane Olff-Nathan) >Subject: Women in Afghanistan > >Please spare a minute to read this mail. Thank you. > >The government of Afghanistan is waging a war upon women. The situation is >getting so bad that one person in an editorial of the Times compared the >treatment of women there to the treatment of Jews in pre-Holocaust Poland. >Since the Taliban took power in 1996, women have had to wear burqua and >have been beaten and stoned in public for not having the proper attire, >even if this means simply not having the mesh covering in front of their >eyes. One woman was beaten to DEATH by an angry mob of fundamentalists for >accidentally exposing her arm while she was driving. Another was stoned to >death for trying to leave the country with a man that was not a relative. >Women are not allowed to work or even go out in public without a male >relative; professional women such as professors, translators, doctors, >lawyers, artists and writers have been forced from their jobs and stuffed >into their homes, so that depression is becoming so widespread that it has >reached emergency levels. There is no way in such an extreme Islamic >society to know the suicide rate with certainty, but relief workers are >estimating that the suicide rate among women, who cannot find proper >medication and treatment for severe depression and would rather take their >lives than live in such conditions, has increased significantly. Homes >where a woman is present must have their windows painted so that she can >never be seen by outsiders. They must wear silent shoes so that they are >never heard. Women live in fear of their lives for the slightest >misbehavior. Because they cannot work, those without male relatives or >husbands are either starving to death or begging on the street, even if >they hold Ph.D.'s. There are almost no medical facilities available for >women, and relief workers, in protest, have mostly left the country, taking >medicine and psychologists and other things necessary to treat the >sky-rocketing level of depression among women. At one of the rare hospitals >for women, a reporter found still, nearly lifeless bodies lying motionless >on top of beds, wrapped in their burqua, unwilling to speak, eat, or do >anything, but slowly wasting away. Others have gone mad and were seen >crouched in corners, perpetually rocking or crying, most of them in fear. >One doctor is considering, when what little medication that is left finally >runs out, leaving these women in front of the president's residence as a >form of peaceful protest. It is at the point where the term 'human rights >violations' has become an understatement. Husbands have the power of life >and death over their women relatives, especially their wives, but an angry >mob has just as much right to stone or beat a woman, often to death, for >exposing an inch of flesh or offending them in the slightest way. David >Cornwell has said that those in the West should not judge the Afghan people >for such treatment because it is a 'cultural thing', but this is not even >true. Women enjoyed relative freedom, to work, dress generally as they >wanted, and drive and appear in public alone until only 1996 -- the >rapidity of this transition is the main reason for the depression and >suicide; women who were once educators or doctors or simply used to basic >human freedoms are now severely restricted and treated as sub-human in the >name of right-wing fundamentalist Islam. It is not their tradition or >'culture', but is alien to them, and it is extreme even for those cultures >where fundamentalism is the rule. Besides, if we could excuse everything on >cultural grounds, then we should not be appalled that the Carthaginians >sacrificed their infant children, that little girls are circumcised in >parts of Africa, that blacks in the US deep south in the 1930's were >lynched, prohibited from voting, and forced to submit to unjust Jim Crow >laws. Everyone has a right to a tolerable human existence, even if they are >women in a Muslim country in a part of the world that Westerners may not >understand. If we can threaten military force in Kosovo in the name of >human rights for the sake of ethnic Albanians, then NATO and the West can >certainly express peaceful outrage at the oppression, murder and injustice >committed against women by the Taliban. >> >> ************* >> STATEMENT: In signing this, we agree that the current treatment of women >in Afghanistan is completely UNACCEPTABLE and deserves support and action >by the people of the United Nations and that the current situation in >Afghanistan will not be tolerated. Women's Rights is not a small issue >anywhere and it is UNACCEPTABLE for women in 1998 to be treated as >sub-human and so much as property. Equality and human decency is a RIGHT >not a freedom, whether one lives in Afghanistan or anywhere else. >> ***** >> 1) Bruce J. Malina, Omaha, NE >> 2) Raymond Hobbs, Hamilton, ON, Canada >> 3) Elizabeth Demaray, Kanata, ON, Canada >> 4) Fred Demaray, Kanata, ON, Canada >> 5) Leslie Penrose, Tulsa, OK >> 6) Susan Ross, Perkins, OK >> 7) Jeannie Himes, Tulsa, OK >> 8) Lois Adams, Tulsa, OK >> 9) Mona M. Miller, Fort Collins, CO >> 10) Kara A. Sheldon, Colorado Springs, CO >> 11) Gay Victoria, Colorado Springs, CO >> 12) Catherine Euler, Leeds, UK >> 13) Faith Muimo, Leeds, UK >> 14) Sanna Vehvil?inen, Helsinki, Finland >> 15) Jussi Onnismaa, Helsinki. Finland >> 16) Marjatta Hahkio, Helsinki, Finland >> 17) Jouko Hahkio, Helsinki, Finland >> 18) Colin Sydes, Helsinki, Finland >19) Gavin Cowie, Helsinki, Finland >20) Andrew Walker, London, UK >21 Roberto Battista, London, UK >22) Richard Wolfstrome, Brighton, UK >23) Louise Jorden, London, UK >24) Jonny Shipp, Brighton, UK >25) Gabriel de Kadt, Brighton, UK >26) Emanuel de Kadt, Brighton, UK >27) Dominique Egger, Geneva, CH >28) Jean louis BARA, Colmar, FR >29) Rodolphe Echard, Colmar, FR >30) Josiane Olff-Nathan, Strasbourg, France >31) Boris Oguibenine, Strasbourg, France >> **** Please sign to support, and include your town and country. Then >> copy and e-mail to as many people as possible. If you receive this >> list with more than 50 names on it, please e-mail a copy of it to: >> >> Mary Robinson, >> High Commissioner, >> UNHCHR, >> webadmin.hchr at unorg.ch >> >> and to: >> >> Angela King, >> Special Advisor on Gender Issues and the Advancement of Women, >> UN, >> daw at undp.org >> >> Even if you decide not to sign, please be considerate and do not kill >> the petition. Thank you. >> >> It is best to copy rather than forward the petition. > >Josiane Olff-Nathan >Groupe d'Etude et de Recherche sur la Science de l'Universite Louis Pasteur >7, rue de l'Universite >67000 - Strasbourg (France) >Tel : +33 (0)3 88 52 80 60 >Fax : +33 (0)3 88 52 80 57 >Email : josiane.olff-nathan at gersulp.u-strasbg.fr __________________________________________________ I would like to turn the attention of the Author(s) and all the signatories of this dramatic petition to something that does not lend credence to it. The second sentence reads: >The situation is getting so bad that one person in an editorial of the Times compared the treatment of women there to the treatment of Jews in pre-Holocaust Poland.> The Times might be a reliable source of knowledge. But certainly not in this case. From what I remember from my history books (not all of them written by Polish authors), the Nuremberg Laws depriving Jews of many civil rights and making them sub-human were promulgated at the 1935 Nazi Party Convention and then systematically implemented not in Poland but in the German Third Reich. The meanings implied in the journalistic comparison of pre-War Poland with the Talibans' Afganistan offend me - as a Pole and as a person. While sharing the concern of all the signatories for the dramatic situation of women in Afgahanistan, I want to make it clear that I am not going to attach my signature to theirs under the petition. Not in its present form. Although I can only speak for myself, I believe I am not alone in the conviction that no one can effectively fight evil, if their good cause is propped up with creations of resentment and prejudice - whatever the reason for allowing it. I would like to ask Ms.Ms. Josiane Olff-Nathan of the Groupe d'Etude et de Recherche sur la Science de l'Universite Louis Pasteur, Angela King, Special Advisor on Gender Issues and the Advancement of Women, UN, and Mary Robinson, High Commissioner, UNHCHR, to forward this letter to the members of their networks. As the topic is really far from indological concerns, any comments the members of the Indology list would wish to make be kindly directed to my personal address. With regards, Artur K. Karp, M.A. Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali South Asian Studies Deptt University of Warsaw Poland From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Mar 18 10:15:06 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 11:15:06 +0100 Subject: Kerala-vishaya? Message-ID: <161227047567.23782.9105395896622281453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for asking what may be a very basic question, but historical geography is not my forte: in a text which I am assuming to be no earlier than the 17th century (possibly later), I find mention of a certain brahmin named so-and-so who lived 'in the district of Kerala' (kerale vi.saye). Could anyone tell me how well this term may correspond to the present Kerala state? Thanks in advance. Regards, Martin Gansten From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Thu Mar 18 16:23:48 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 11:23:48 -0500 Subject: Women in Afghanistan In-Reply-To: <199903181516.QAA24013@mx1.polbox.com> Message-ID: <161227047579.23782.3821116778606697161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arthur Karp takes exception to the passage: > >>The situation is getting so bad that one person in an editorial of the >Times compared the treatment of women there to the treatment of Jews in >pre-Holocaust Poland.> > I suppose the word "pogrom" is not in your vocabulary? Should Poland be singled out for its inhospitability toward Jews (both before and after the Holocaust; many Jews who no longer identified themselves as Jewish were made to leave Poland in the 1960s)? I agree Poland should not be made to bear the full brunt of European antisemitism, but it can hardly deny being a major player (where, after all, were the Death Camps?). The factoid at the end of Schindler's List highlights this: The descendents of the 1200 some-odd Jews saved by Schindler are now over four times as many as all the Jews remaining in Poland. So protest being singled out, but don't deny the charges. Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Mar 18 17:16:46 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 12:16:46 -0500 Subject: River Krishna In-Reply-To: <19990318133019.19620.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047584.23782.9717001087929931845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 5:30 -0800 3/18/99, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: >The name of the River Krishna in AP in old times appears to have >been called something cognate with the Tamil "karum peNNai"; >'karum' refers to black color and 'peNNai' means palm tree. >We have vaTa(north) and ten2(south) peNNai rivers. I wonder whether there is *any* connection with palm trees (why would you like to call your river like that?). K.-H. Pinnow (1963-4) collected river names from all over India in an unfortunately unpublished Berlin thesis, except for small excerpts in Beitrage zur Namenforschung (1963-4). In Central India he found a number of rivers that have been Sanskritized (mostly as second parts of compounds) in -parNA 'leaf', -pUrNA 'full', -praNI 'leading forwards/full of life', -phenA 'having foam', -varNA 'having color', -veNNA, -veNa, -veNI 'having strands of hair' (cf. TriveNI 'sacred confluence of three rivers', such as at Prayaaga/Allahabad, etc. ). Clearly, many of them are popular etymologies of foreign words (such as your 'palm tree' case). These names are mostly found south of the Satpura Range, that is west, east and south of Nagpur, and north of the GodAvarI, in an area now occupied by Marathi and Gondi. Pinnow has explained them as the first bundle, coming from the north, of Drav. river names as they may be compared with mod. Drav. river names such as peNNai, poruNai, that is feminine forms (common in river names) of peNN-, poruN-. However, the language isolate (lowest substrate of ) Nahali has parayn [paraJ?, see Kuiper , Nahali, 1962: 96] 'river'. This suggests an origin of this word in (Proto-)Nahali. (Note that 25% of Nahali vocabulary are lower, in time, than the subsequent Munda, Dravidian and Indo-Aryan levels; the language now is IA). Spoken on the Tapti, in the Satpura Range, NW of Ellichpur and Nagpur). Some speculate that the Bhils may have spoken Nahali. The Dravidians might have taken over, long ago, this designation in contact; this is echoed by such double names in the area as Pain-Ganga, Ven-Ganga 'river -river', found in eastern Maharastra (gaGgA seems to have meant 'river' originally, cf. Mayrhofer, KEWA, EWA s. v.) Such double or even triple designations are not uncommon when a river name is taken over into another language. (I have given many cases from Nepal in 1993 where we can follow such processes. In some cases we get a modern river name in two or even three languages : "river-river-river" = Mod-khyun-kholaa!). But what would be the Dravidian etymon here? Certainly not DEDR 4449 pEN 'louse'! Hardly DEDR 4436 pEN 'protection', DEDR 4551 poru 'to unite'... And no palm trees. Any ideas among the Drav. linguists? >In medieval times, it looks "karum peNNai/peNNaar" was rendered as >KrishnaveNi, Note again peNNAi ~ veNi (perhaps additionally influenced by Skt. veNI) >and later shortened to Krishna. Comments appreciated MW ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Mar 18 12:35:05 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 13:35:05 +0100 Subject: Looking for an out-of-print book Message-ID: <161227047569.23782.15730101766765796038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been trying to locate a copy of the following title, published by the S?dasien-Institut, Heidelberg: Jyotisa : das System der indischen Astrologie [Jyotisa : the system of Indian astrology] / von [by] Hans-Georg T?rstig. - 1980. XVIII, 343 p. ISBN 3-515-03283-5 It is no longer available either from the S?dasien-Institut itself or from the Franz Steiner Verlag, where I was directed. Would anyone on the list happen to own a copy or know where I could obtain one? Many thanks in advance, Martin Gansten From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Mar 18 20:41:36 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 15:41:36 -0500 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047593.23782.12983379628610237312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 3/18/99 11:28:14 AM Central Standard Time, witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > But what would be the Dravidian etymon here? Certainly not DEDR 4449 pEN > 'louse'! > Hardly DEDR 4436 pEN 'protection', DEDR 4551 poru 'to unite'... And no > palm trees. > Any ideas among the Drav. linguists? > > > >In medieval times, it looks "karum peNNai/peNNaar" was rendered as > >KrishnaveNi, > > Note again peNNAi ~ veNi (perhaps additionally influenced by Skt. veNI) > > >and later shortened to Krishna. > DEDR 4449 is pEn2 with the alveolar n2. So it does not relate to the river names with retroflex N. Traditionally peN (female) is explained as being derived from peL- to desire, to love, etc. (see DEDR 4436). DEDR entry does not give all the meanings. See Cologne's On-line Tamil Lexicon for "peTpu". However, in my opinion DEDR 4194 piL- is the basis for river names and female names. The items in DEDR 4194 clearly show what the connection is. As for river Krishna, Vedam Venkataraya Sastry says, "It will be a very interesting and a surprising pointer to the southern influence that the original name of the river Krishna was Pennar and not Krishna. Early records call it Kanna-Penna, Kanna-Benna, the black Pennar, as against the other two southern Pennars. Krishna-Venna got Sanskritized as Krishna-Veni and we have now dropped the Veni and retained Krishna." ('The Influence of Tamil on Kannada and Telugu' in the Proceedings of the Vth International Tamil Conference-Seminar, 1981, p. 8-63) Regards S. Palaniappan From hart at POLBOX.COM Thu Mar 18 15:22:26 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 16:22:26 +0100 Subject: Women in Afghanistan Message-ID: <161227047577.23782.8931754389598314657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:14 17.03.99 +0100, you wrote: >I forward this message at the request of the undersigned although it does >not belong to properly Indological matters (but to a field not alien to >Indologists because of the formerly known Buddhist sites!). > >Return-Path: >X-Sender: olffnath at mailserver.u-strasbg.fr >Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:41:15 +0100 >From: josiane.olff-nathan at gersulp.u-strasbg.fr (Josiane Olff-Nathan) >Subject: Women in Afghanistan > >Please spare a minute to read this mail. Thank you. > >The government of Afghanistan is waging a war upon women. The situation is >getting so bad that one person in an editorial of the Times compared the >treatment of women there to the treatment of Jews in pre-Holocaust Poland. >Since the Taliban took power in 1996, women have had to wear burqua and >have been beaten and stoned in public for not having the proper attire, >even if this means simply not having the mesh covering in front of their >eyes. One woman was beaten to DEATH by an angry mob of fundamentalists for >accidentally exposing her arm while she was driving. Another was stoned to >death for trying to leave the country with a man that was not a relative. >Women are not allowed to work or even go out in public without a male >relative; professional women such as professors, translators, doctors, >lawyers, artists and writers have been forced from their jobs and stuffed >into their homes, so that depression is becoming so widespread that it has >reached emergency levels. There is no way in such an extreme Islamic >society to know the suicide rate with certainty, but relief workers are >estimating that the suicide rate among women, who cannot find proper >medication and treatment for severe depression and would rather take their >lives than live in such conditions, has increased significantly. Homes >where a woman is present must have their windows painted so that she can >never be seen by outsiders. They must wear silent shoes so that they are >never heard. Women live in fear of their lives for the slightest >misbehavior. Because they cannot work, those without male relatives or >husbands are either starving to death or begging on the street, even if >they hold Ph.D.'s. There are almost no medical facilities available for >women, and relief workers, in protest, have mostly left the country, taking >medicine and psychologists and other things necessary to treat the >sky-rocketing level of depression among women. At one of the rare hospitals >for women, a reporter found still, nearly lifeless bodies lying motionless >on top of beds, wrapped in their burqua, unwilling to speak, eat, or do >anything, but slowly wasting away. Others have gone mad and were seen >crouched in corners, perpetually rocking or crying, most of them in fear. >One doctor is considering, when what little medication that is left finally >runs out, leaving these women in front of the president's residence as a >form of peaceful protest. It is at the point where the term 'human rights >violations' has become an understatement. Husbands have the power of life >and death over their women relatives, especially their wives, but an angry >mob has just as much right to stone or beat a woman, often to death, for >exposing an inch of flesh or offending them in the slightest way. David >Cornwell has said that those in the West should not judge the Afghan people >for such treatment because it is a 'cultural thing', but this is not even >true. Women enjoyed relative freedom, to work, dress generally as they >wanted, and drive and appear in public alone until only 1996 -- the >rapidity of this transition is the main reason for the depression and >suicide; women who were once educators or doctors or simply used to basic >human freedoms are now severely restricted and treated as sub-human in the >name of right-wing fundamentalist Islam. It is not their tradition or >'culture', but is alien to them, and it is extreme even for those cultures >where fundamentalism is the rule. Besides, if we could excuse everything on >cultural grounds, then we should not be appalled that the Carthaginians >sacrificed their infant children, that little girls are circumcised in >parts of Africa, that blacks in the US deep south in the 1930's were >lynched, prohibited from voting, and forced to submit to unjust Jim Crow >laws. Everyone has a right to a tolerable human existence, even if they are >women in a Muslim country in a part of the world that Westerners may not >understand. If we can threaten military force in Kosovo in the name of >human rights for the sake of ethnic Albanians, then NATO and the West can >certainly express peaceful outrage at the oppression, murder and injustice >committed against women by the Taliban. >> >> ************* >> STATEMENT: In signing this, we agree that the current treatment of women >in Afghanistan is completely UNACCEPTABLE and deserves support and action >by the people of the United Nations and that the current situation in >Afghanistan will not be tolerated. Women's Rights is not a small issue >anywhere and it is UNACCEPTABLE for women in 1998 to be treated as >sub-human and so much as property. Equality and human decency is a RIGHT >not a freedom, whether one lives in Afghanistan or anywhere else. >> ***** >> 1) Bruce J. Malina, Omaha, NE >> 2) Raymond Hobbs, Hamilton, ON, Canada >> 3) Elizabeth Demaray, Kanata, ON, Canada >> 4) Fred Demaray, Kanata, ON, Canada >> 5) Leslie Penrose, Tulsa, OK >> 6) Susan Ross, Perkins, OK >> 7) Jeannie Himes, Tulsa, OK >> 8) Lois Adams, Tulsa, OK >> 9) Mona M. Miller, Fort Collins, CO >> 10) Kara A. Sheldon, Colorado Springs, CO >> 11) Gay Victoria, Colorado Springs, CO >> 12) Catherine Euler, Leeds, UK >> 13) Faith Muimo, Leeds, UK >> 14) Sanna Vehvil?inen, Helsinki, Finland >> 15) Jussi Onnismaa, Helsinki. Finland >> 16) Marjatta Hahkio, Helsinki, Finland >> 17) Jouko Hahkio, Helsinki, Finland >> 18) Colin Sydes, Helsinki, Finland >19) Gavin Cowie, Helsinki, Finland >20) Andrew Walker, London, UK >21 Roberto Battista, London, UK >22) Richard Wolfstrome, Brighton, UK >23) Louise Jorden, London, UK >24) Jonny Shipp, Brighton, UK >25) Gabriel de Kadt, Brighton, UK >26) Emanuel de Kadt, Brighton, UK >27) Dominique Egger, Geneva, CH >28) Jean louis BARA, Colmar, FR >29) Rodolphe Echard, Colmar, FR >30) Josiane Olff-Nathan, Strasbourg, France >31) Boris Oguibenine, Strasbourg, France >> **** Please sign to support, and include your town and country. Then >> copy and e-mail to as many people as possible. If you receive this >> list with more than 50 names on it, please e-mail a copy of it to: >> >> Mary Robinson, >> High Commissioner, >> UNHCHR, >> webadmin.hchr at unorg.ch >> >> and to: >> >> Angela King, >> Special Advisor on Gender Issues and the Advancement of Women, >> UN, >> daw at undp.org >> >> Even if you decide not to sign, please be considerate and do not kill >> the petition. Thank you. >> >> It is best to copy rather than forward the petition. > >Josiane Olff-Nathan >Groupe d'Etude et de Recherche sur la Science de l'Universite Louis Pasteur >7, rue de l'Universite >67000 - Strasbourg (France) >Tel : +33 (0)3 88 52 80 60 >Fax : +33 (0)3 88 52 80 57 >Email : josiane.olff-nathan at gersulp.u-strasbg.fr ____________________________________________________ This is a dramatic petition. I have, however, to draw the attention of its Author(s) and all the signatories to something that robs it of intended credibility. The second sentence reads: >The situation is getting so bad that one person in an editorial of the Times compared the treatment of women there to the treatment of Jews in pre-Holocaust Poland.> The Times might be a reliable source of knowledge. But certainly not in this case. From what I remember from my history books (not all of them written by Polish authors), the Nuremberg Laws depriving Jews of many civil rights and making them sub-human were promulgated at the 1935 Nazi Party Convention and then systematically implemented not in Poland but in the German Third Reich. The meanings implied in the journalistic comparison of pre-War Poland with the Talibans' Afganistan offend me - as a person and as a Pole. While sharing the concern of all the signatories for the dramatic situation of women in Afgahanistan, I want to make it clear that I am not going to attach my signature to theirs under the petition. Not in its present form. Although I can only speak for myself, I believe I am not alone in the conviction that no one can effectively fight evil, if their good cause is propped up with creations of resentment and prejudice - whatever their reason for allowing it. I would like to ask Ms.Ms. Josiane Olff-Nathan of the Groupe d'Etude et de Recherche sur la Science de l'Universite Louis Pasteur, Angela King, Special Advisor on Gender Issues and the Advancement of Women, UN, and Mary Robinson, High Commissioner, UNHCHR, to forward this letter to the members of their networks. As the topic is really far from indological concerns, any comments the members of the Indology list would wish to make be kindly directed to my personal address. With regards, Artur K. Karp, M.A. Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali South Asian Studies Deptt University of Warsaw Poland From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 18 21:28:56 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 16:28:56 -0500 Subject: Women in Afghanistan Message-ID: <161227047595.23782.49862604551031936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan Lusthaus charged: <> Lusthaus talks as if Poland had some choice as to where the death camps would be. They were placed there, by Germany not by Poland, because it was conquered territory and because that's where more Jews were. Not to mention that a hefty percentage of the non-Jewish citizenry of Poland was placed in them as well. There were significant limitations on the 'inhospitality' of pre-Holocaust Poland to Jews, considering that as I recall and without rechecking sources they constituted as they traditionally had about 10 % of the population, a percentage as far as I know unparalleled in any European polity except perhaps some mercantile city-states. Allen Thrasher The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 19 00:58:16 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 16:58:16 -0800 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047601.23782.11580992863919615605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>The name of the River Krishna in AP in old times appears to have >>been called something cognate with the Tamil "karum peNNai"; >>'karum' refers to black color and 'peNNai' means palm tree. >>We have vaTa(north) and ten2(south) peNNai rivers. Prof. Witzel wrote: >I wonder whether there is *any* connection with palm trees (why >would you like to call your river like that?). According to B. C. Law, Mountains and Rivers of India, River Krishna was called kaNhapeNNa in the Buddha Jatakas and as kaNhapeMNa in the Haathigumpha inscription of Khaaravela. Later, the purana authors sanskritized as Krishnaveni. The Cologne Institute of Indology and Tamil studies Ta. Lexicon (OTL) gives peNNai - 1. *palmyra - palm* 2. the 17th naksathra 3. water-thorn 4. rivers (north and south pennar) There are many instances in Tamil literature where 'peNNai' is palm tree. Eg., A lover threatening his girl friend that he will die on a thorny seat on a mock palmyra horse. May be, the major region watered by the three PeNNaar rivers were full of palmyra trees in old times. kaNhapeNNa in Nallamalais, N. PeNNar in Nellore, S. PeNNar in Arcot (TN). In the South PeNNar (peNNaiyARu) area, there are two old 'Siva temples sung in Tevaram (7th century). puRavaar pan2aGkATTUr and tiruvOttUr. pan2aGkaaTu = palm forest; OttUr (Ottu = Veda) has many legends connected to palmyra trees. Are the TN rivers taNporunai (sanskritized as tAmraparNI) and Aan2porunai ( later Amaravati, Amravati) also related to Nahali 'parayn'?? Kind regards, V. Iyer >Comments appreciated >MW Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hart at POLBOX.COM Thu Mar 18 16:09:12 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 17:09:12 +0100 Subject: Situation of Women in Afghanistan Message-ID: <161227047582.23782.3877161221906709340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I apologize for the unintended and unexpected tripling of my original message. A. Karp From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Thu Mar 18 22:24:29 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 17:24:29 -0500 Subject: Poland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047597.23782.16353861945412439151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is certainly not the forum to give a full airing to this issue. Poland acquired a large Jewish population at the end of the middle ages because at that time Jews (who were personae non grata in most of Europe) were encouraged and invited to settle in Poland for a variety of reasons: They brought science (acquired in the Moorish environs), they brought capital and capital expertise, and so on. And Poland was at that time one of the few places in Europe that Jews were allowed to own any land (which is why there were so many shtetl 'Fiddler on the roof' type farmers by the end of the 19th c.). But by the 19th c., things had turned, and Jews were hardly safe. Many Polish Jews fled to Germany early in the 20th century, or to the states. Pogroms became the norm, and, as I mentioned, even after the war, the Communist Poles continued to purge Jews into the 1960s. If Allen Thrasher would like to continue this discussion, I suggest moving it from Indology (where even Afghanistan is something of a stretch), to a list designed to address it: H-Antisemitism (History of Antisemitism). If he (or anyone else) wants to subscribe to that list, contact me and I'll send you instructions. I suggest we close this thread here. Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Mar 18 22:39:49 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 17:39:49 -0500 Subject: hAlAsyapurANa and hAlAsyarahasya Message-ID: <161227047599.23782.15783970228298205482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 3/17/99 4:02:50 PM Central Standard Time, athr at LOC.GOV writes: > The Library of Congress has two Malayalam versions of the > Halasyamahatmya, which it identifies are from the Skandhapurana. Do > you have any idea where if anywhere in published versions of the > Skandhapurana it might appear? Of course, many works claimed to > belong to the SP are isolated works and not found in mss or printed > versions of it. In "Sacred Marriage of a Hindu Goddess", p.29-31, W. P. Harman says, "Fro about the ninth century on, many Tamil scholars began to develop the unfortunate notion that if a literary work is (or was) in Sanskrit, it has to be good. Positing a Sanskrit source for a work not in Sanskrit came to be a writer's insurance policy, guaranteeing his document's acceptance by the "main learned and religious traditions" (van Buitenan 1978a, 12). .... I have concluded that the earliest extant work on Ziva's games in Madurai is the work by Nampi. Thus, even if Nampi tells us, as indeed he does, that his work has a Sanskrit antecedent, I am inclined not to believe him. I believe that Nampi's is the earliest written version and that it is the basis of all the otherversions--Sanskrit or Tamil-- available. ...Similarly, if the author of a Sanskrit text were using a Tamil antecedent or model, by the normal rules of the game he would be well advised not to admit it. Rather he would be wiser to name as a model another Sanskrit text, or to insert his work judiciously into an already prestigious Sanskrit corpus, such as the skandapurANa." Thus, if it was added to SP, it must be a later addition. My interest in these texts is due to them containing the story of ziva teaching grammatical sutras. Regards S. Palaniappan From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Mar 18 19:36:17 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 20:36:17 +0100 Subject: SV: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047589.23782.9263626787918061616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel [SMTP:witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU] skrev 18. mars 1999 18:17: > At 5:30 -0800 3/18/99, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > >The name of the River Krishna in AP in old times appears to have > >been called something cognate with the Tamil "karum peNNai"; > >'karum' refers to black color and 'peNNai' means palm tree. > >We have vaTa(north) and ten2(south) peNNai rivers. Sorry to but in, but I have a more general question regarding river names, and this may be the time to bring it up before I forget. As you know, there is a theory about a system of hydronyms related to Western Europe, supposedly going back to the period of the I-E "takeover" (about 2000 +/- BCE). See e.g. Hans Krahe, "Indogermanisch und Alteurop?isch", reprinted in "Die Urheimat der Indogermanen" published by Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft in 1968. Is there anything similar to such a hydronymic system in the Indo-Iranian area? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 19 00:32:36 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 00:32:36 +0000 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047587.23782.1838380671135318668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel wrote: > Note again peNNAi ~ veNi (perhaps additionally influenced by Skt. veNI) > > >and later shortened to Krishna.> Comments appreciated Here are some semant. which may relate to river: pe_n.am = care, nurture (Ta.); punal = water, river (Ma.); pol.e = river (Kod.agu); oyl. = waterfall in channel or river (Kota); pin-n-al = braiding (Ta.)[van.ar = to curl as the hair]; bani = a current of water caused by heavy rain (Malt.); levni = river (Gondi) vanta = rivulet (Naikr.i) Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 19 12:45:43 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 04:45:43 -0800 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047605.23782.12937985898148527406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >but the whole of Tamilnadu right upto the Krishna delta has plenty >of Palm trees (not date palms but the ones from which Taadi (Tamil)/ >Kallu (in Telugu) -- an intoxicating liquor is made). In Tamil also, kaLLu/kaL is there, in fact most common for toddy, the palm liquor. Also, Iizham means toddy and gold. In Kerala, the toddy tapping caste was called Iizhavar. Today they are powerful. Did they come from Ceylon?? Among Tamil Nadars, Christian missionaries worked. Robert Caldwell wrote the first book in English on Nadars. Nadar businessmen spend 10s of lakhs, often competing with Nattukkottai Chettiars, to become trustees of major temples of TN. David Rudner on Nagarattaars; R. L. Hardgrave on Nadars. GowDas of Karnataka have their TN counterparts called GowNDas; Brenda Beck, Peassant society in Kongu, 1972. In fact, B. E. F Beck recorded/translated the oral epic on Kongu Vellalas (GowNDan). Beck's study of Annamar kathai is a first in India, later followed by G. Roghair on an oral epic on Telugu Velamas. Is GowDa-GowNDa a parallel to eraDu(ka.) - iraNDu (Ta.)?? In Kannada inscriptions, gAmuNDa/gAvuNDa occurs - a precursor to gowDa. Interested in knowing whether GowDas in Karnataka, their jAti purANas, or any other Kannada caste have a memory of vEL(Ta.)/VELAn(Ta.)/vELALA /bEL/bElA/velama(Te.)??? Hope experts like Dr. Zydenbos or Kannadigas tell this because Tamil sangam texts call Karnataka region as "vEL pulam". Also, pl. refer the thread on BEluuru and BeLagAm and the relationship to "vEL"s. Thanks a lot. Sincerely, N. Ganesan Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Fri Mar 19 13:49:23 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 07:49:23 -0600 Subject: hAlAsyapurANa and hAlAsyarahasya Message-ID: <161227047607.23782.14329038181916824459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:39:49 EST, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan writes: >I have concluded that the earliest extant work on Ziva's games in Madurai is >the work by Nampi... prompting me to hope you can tell me whether or not any of the various recitations of Ziva's games in Madurai include reference to slaying an elephant demon. Approaching the question from another direction, are there any sthala puranic explanations for how the mountain Anaimali, just northeast of the city, came to have this name? Thanks in anticipation of any leads, Michael Rabe From kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA Fri Mar 19 11:21:28 1999 From: kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA (Prof P Kumar) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 13:21:28 +0200 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047603.23782.17361401415448483242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not sure if this has anything to do with the relationship between the name of the river and 'peNNai' -- but the whole of Tamilnadu right upto the Krishna delta has plenty of Palm trees (not date palms but the ones from which Taadi (Tamil)/ Kallu (in Telugu) -- an intoxicating liquor is made). The fruit of the tree has a big dark hard fruit with a shining skin. The liquor is extracted not from the fruit but from the trunk of the tree. That is why (i.e, because of the presence of Palm trees) both in Tamilnadu and Andhra there is a caste which specialises in extracting this liquor. In Tamilnadu the original profession of the Nadar community was to extract Taadi and somewhere around the 19th century they began to move into other commercial enterprises and today they are powerful economic group in Tamilnadu. Incidentally the dowry paid to a bridegroom in this caste is much higher than most castes in Tamilnadu. However, in Andhra such transformation of economic status did not happen to their counterparts who are known as Gowdas. They continue to extract Kallu to this day and specialise in making Kallu. This Gowda group need to be distinguished from the Karnataka Gowdas who occupy the status of landlord. In fact, in Karnataka "Gowda" can be used as a mark/title of respect, e.g., Kempe Gowda. Pratap Prof. P. Kumar (Head of Dept) Department of Science of Religion University of Durban-Westivlle Private BagX54001 Durban 4000 South Africa Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work) Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work) Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Director of the 18th Quinquennial Congress of the IAHR Durban- August 5-12 2000 For more info on the Congress please see: http://www.udw.ac.za/iahr From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Mar 19 22:23:47 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 17:23:47 -0500 Subject: SV: River Krishna In-Reply-To: <01BE7180.99351CE0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227047612.23782.15705628621433494927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:36 +0100 3/18/99, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >>there is a theory about a system of hydronyms related to Western >Europe, supposedly going back to the period of the I-E "takeover" (about 2000 >+/- BCE). See e.g. Hans Krahe, "Indogermanisch und Alteurop?isch" > Is there anything similar to such a hydronymic system in the Indo-Iranian >area? Yes, hydronomy is very conservative everywhere... (note Misssisspi, Missouri, etc.) But unfortunately, in the IIr and IA area, most river names have been named freshly, translated or adapted to Vedic Sanskrit and only a few remnants of the older designations have survived in NW. and N. South Asia (KubhA, Krumu?, Sindhu?, ZutudrI, VipAz?, GaGgA). The Sanskritization process (note the discussion on KRSNa-veNI) is still going on in places like Nepal. The situation gets better, as far as *old* names are concerned, as soon as we enter eastern N.India (Audh, Bihar etc.: Munda, Tib.-Burm. names) and the areas south of the Ganga, these with both Munda and Dravidian designations. (I have written on hydronomy and other names in a vol. ed. by J.Bronkhorst & M.Deshpande, on Aryan & Non-Aryan, conf. at Ann Arbor 2 years ago. - The book will come out this spring as vol. 3 of Harvard Oriental Series-Opera Minora, to be had from South Asia Books, Columbia MO) In Greater Iran, too, nearly all is "Aryanized": the Oxus (now Amu Darya) < Vaxsh (Skt. vakS) > Epic/Puranic VakSu/CakSu!/IkSu! , the Helmand < *Setumant, Arachosia < Haraxvaiti < SarasvatI, Hare < Haroiiu < Sarayu (Herat River), etc., etc. -- Euphrates & Tigris of course are foreign words in Old Persian, taken over from Mesopotamian languages. But note the N.Iranian (Scythian) river names in the Ukraine/S. Russia: Don ~ Skt. daanu, Dnepr, Dnestr, Danube, etc. Not to forget the Volga, whose older name in Greek sources is: Rha~ [RahA], N.Iran. for Avestan RanghA = Skt. RasA, 2 mythical rivers in Avesta/ Rgveda, and a small one in the N. Indus area in RV. --- Nevertheless, we can discern a few pre-Aryan clusters even in Gandhara/Panjab and, of course, in the less Aryanized areas. Southern names have been avidly studied by South Indian scholars, however all from the point of biew of Dravidian. However, I still miss the tracing of earlier levels: What is "aborigine" (Nahali, Vedda, Nilgiri-Substrate, etc.), what is Munda, what is Dravidian --- that is, what explainable as *real* designations, like here in the US : "Red River", "Muddy Creek", "Charles River < Massachusetts River" etc., and what is an adaptation of not understood, local names: Thames, Rhone, Rhine, Danube, Missouri... Linguistic comments welcome. MW =========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Mar 19 22:26:10 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 17:26:10 -0500 Subject: River Krishna In-Reply-To: <19990319005816.5023.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047615.23782.5730348161819026028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:58 -0800 3/18/99, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: >>>The name of the River Krishna in AP in old times appears to have >>>been called something cognate with the Tamil "karum peNNai"; >>>'karum' refers to black color and 'peNNai' means palm tree. >There are many instances in Tamil literature where 'peNNai' >is palm tree. > No one will doubt that but: >May be, the major region watered by the three PeNNaar rivers >were full of palmyra trees in old times. This is what I wonder about. Again not the prevalence of plam trees, but the most common river names are 'white' ,"milky' (= quick, in the mountains), and 'black (=slow, in the plains), or red (if full of mud as in monsoon, or iron), etc. Then, of course, 'crooked" etc., etc. Of course, you can name a river after peculiar local landmarks or natural phenomena as well (Wind / Snake/ Beaver river, in Wyoming, Colorado etc., Double Mountain Fork in Texas, Red Deer in Alberta, Canada), and I guess there must be a Fir River or Lake somewhere in Canada... But such names are not so typical as the others... That is why I would like to hear from the linguists what the Drav. roots and their meaning of peNN-Ar/ai, Porunai etc. would be .... >Are the TN rivers taNporunai (sanskritized as tAmraparNI) --- again a strange name in Skt. as in all adaptations: red/copper (colored) - leaved River? >and Aan2porunai ( later Amaravati, Amravati) also related to Nahali 'parayn'?? I really wonder: why all these PennAru (A.P., sic, on my map) , PeNN-ar/-ai rivers in the South if there is no(?) good etymological explanation...? MW ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From hart at POLBOX.COM Fri Mar 19 17:16:18 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 18:16:18 +0100 Subject: Women in Afghanistan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047609.23782.9739605030304246414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Dan Lusthaus was kind enough to allow me to protest against Poland being singled out for "inhospitability toward Jews", but tells me not to deny the charge of antisemitism. He knows better - "where, after all, were the Death Camps?" What next? What transformations should the past of Poland undergo to finally satisfy the definition of "being a major player" in the field of European antisemitism? Pogroms in pre-revolution Russian Empire organized by a conspiracy of Polish antisemites? Hitler inspired by the Polish arch-theoreticians of antisemitism? Polish Auschwitz designed by Polish architects and financed by Polish banks? Polish lobby effectively keeping the President of the USA from bombing out Auschwitz railway lines and industrial installations? , asks Mr. Lusthaus, trying to turn me - from the very start - into some kind of sub-human existence. I reject this kind of manipulative rhetorics and I resent the aggressive tone. I reject the term "pre-Holocaust Poland" as suggestive of a stage preparatory to "Holocaust Poland". I reject the image of pre-War Poland as THE country of pogroms, it is not only unjust, it is idiotic. Finally, I reject the substitution of the word "War" by the term "Holocaust" - whenever such substitution serves to reduce the extent and relativize the meaning of non-Jewish suffering. Poland has had her fringe of extreme nationalists, noisome radicals and antisemites. And there was no lack of socio-economic and political tensions in pre-War Poland, which was a young, multinational state, with a lot of inherited inter-ethnic conflicts and large minorities (Ukrainians, Jews, Germans, Byelorussians, Lithuanians). Some of these tensions, as also the lowest human instincts, manifested themselves when the country was occupied and the Polish State ceased to function. No serious historian, however, has ever attempted to show this fringe as the mainstream of Polish history. Finding the truth is certainly a slow and painful process, for both sides. Thanks to the ongoing debate carried for at least the last two decades and involving historians, intellectuals and theologians from Poland and Israel, the accursed knot of mutual accusations, prejudices and stereotypes is being systematically untangled. Thanks to this cooperation, quite a lot is already known about the context of the pre-War and post-War migrations of Jews from Poland to Palestine/Israel; political and economic motives seem to play an important role, perhaps much stronger than purely psychological reasons. More and more evidence points to Kielce 1946 pogrom as the joint NKVD and the Polish (Communist) State Security provocation, executed with the aim to further separate Poland from the West. The so-called "1968 anti-Zionist policy" was a fragment of factional struggle within the nomenclature of the Communist Party and was designed to contain mass students' unrest and anti-governmental demonstrations by bringing in nationalistic rhetorics. As the events of the subsequent years show - with a marked lack of success. I doubt phoney Hollywood heroes (memoirs of Schindler's wife are revealing) can explain anything. And I do not believe hick historians' questions, like "where, after all, were the Death Camps?", can bring anything new in the picture. In his earlier posting on "Sanskrit Translations in Nazi Hands" (13.01.99), Mr. Lusthaus wrote: . I heartily agree. This is my last message re: "Women in Afghanistan". The exchange, although unpleasant, brings to memory an excellent paper by Veena Das and Ashis Nandi on "Violence, Victimhood and the Language of Silence" [in: Veena Das, ed., The Word and the World: Fantasy, Symbol and Record, New Delhi 1986. Sage Publications. Pp. 177-195]. Violence, the authors say after analyzing the literary images of the 1947/48 Punjab Holocaust, generates specific languages by which it may be legitimized. Extreme forms of violence, however, can be described only by silence - or insane ramblings. The paper helped me to understand why the survivors of Auschwitz, Gulag camps in Siberia or Stalinist prisons in Poland often prefer to remain silent. I would like to thank Dr Dominik Wujastyk for his patience and ask him to formally close the present thread. Artur Karp From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Fri Mar 19 23:42:31 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. (Selva) Selvakumar) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 18:42:31 -0500 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047619.23782.5059164117821730524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel wrote: > This is what I wonder about. Again not the prevalence of plam trees, > but > the most common river names are 'white' ,"milky' (= quick, in the > mountains), and 'black (=slow, in the plains), or red (if full of mud > as in > monsoon, or iron), etc. Then, of course, 'crooked" etc., etc. > Of course, you can name a river after peculiar local landmarks or > natural > phenomena as well (Wind / Snake/ Beaver river, in Wyoming, Colorado > etc., > Double Mountain Fork in Texas, Red Deer in Alberta, Canada), and I > guess > there must be a Fir River or Lake somewhere in Canada... > > But such names are not so typical as the others... That is why I would > like > to hear from the linguists what the Drav. roots and their meaning of > peNN-Ar/ai, Porunai etc. would be .... > > >Are the TN rivers taNporunai (sanskritized as tAmraparNI) > > --- again a strange name in Skt. as in all adaptations: red/copper > (colored) - leaved River? > > >and Aan2porunai ( later Amaravati, Amravati) also related to Nahali > 'parayn'?? > > I really wonder: why all these PennAru (A.P., sic, on my map) , > PeNN-ar/-ai > rivers in the South if there is no(?) good etymological > explanation...? > > MW Professor Witzel, The following may not be substantiated etymological explanation you are seeking, but merely sharing a few thoughts I've heard or inferred. The word 'aaRu' is the most popular word for 'river'. It means, primarily, a 'way, course'. The root sense (etymological) comes from 'aRu' = to cut ( hence to make a way). The word porunai also could mean 'that which cuts'. The word peNNai is supposed to refer to a 'female palm' which is supposed to be hardy at the outside but soft inside. It is supposed to be a generic name (with such a property). In the case of it being used as a river name, I would *guess* that it may refer to the strong embankment. It may also mean that it (the river) is 'sweet' (in the sense of being desirable, from the sense of peL > peT > peTpu = desire; this was already pointed out by Dr. Palaniappan in this list). Another name for river is vENi and it is also considered to come from vEL > vET >vETpu = desire. Other words for river are OTam ( meaning 'that which runs', OTu = to run) and punal (meaning water 'flowing'). Regards, C.R. Selvakumar From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Sat Mar 20 00:25:01 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 19:25:01 -0500 Subject: final note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047621.23782.16620989178777737355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Being only what Artur Karp calls a > hick historian (did he mean hack?), I can only echo his citation of me: > In his earlier posting on "Sanskrit Translations in Nazi Hands" > (13.01.99), Mr. Lusthaus wrote: <dismiss things > while one > remains willfully uninformed>. I heartily agree. I agree, as well. So we can end this thread on a note of agreement. Prof. Karp has given us instructions on how to understand his dismissive apologia. Thank you. The offer to join H-Antisemitism still stands... Dan Lusthaus Florida State University -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 589 bytes Desc: not available URL: From uzstzm at UNI-BONN.DE Fri Mar 19 22:41:47 1999 From: uzstzm at UNI-BONN.DE (Daniel Stender) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 23:41:47 +0100 Subject: Adress Message-ID: <161227047617.23782.7906441322462156129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anybody tell me, if they have an e-mail-adress at the executive director, international student4s cell at the university of pune ? Thanks for any advice. Daniel Stender From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Mar 20 11:59:48 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 06:59:48 -0500 Subject: Saroja Bhate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047629.23782.8531999904663477481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By the way, Professor Saroja Bhate is a "she", the chair of the Department of Sanskrit and Prakrit Languages at the University of Pune. The website for the University of Pune can be reached at: http://www.unipune.ernet.in/ Best, Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Heike Boudalfa wrote: > Dear Daniel, > I don't know if this is what you want, but I got the adress of Prof. Saroja > Bhate of the University of Pune - I don't know exactly what he's doing, but > he might be a professor of the Sanskrit Department. > His adress is: saroja at unipune.ernet.in > Maybe he can help you. > Heike > > ---------- > > Von: Daniel Stender > > An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > Betreff: Adress > > Datum: Freitag, 19. Mdrz 1999 23:41 > > > > Can anybody tell me, if they have an e-mail-adress at > > the executive director, international student4s cell at the > > university of pune ? > > Thanks for any advice. > > > > Daniel Stender > From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 20 16:03:27 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 08:03:27 -0800 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047650.23782.1314067947385650977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Witzel, There is a South PeNNai river in Tamilnadu. In South Arcot district. It joins the sea at Cuddalore. Bharatiyar sings on Tamilnadu rivers as "kAviri, ten2 peNNai, pAlARu, tamiz kaNTatOr vaiyai nati .." PeNNai as palm/palmyra tree in Tamil texts is rare. In fact, I do not know any instances in post 11th century Tamil literature. Tamil experts can tell this. Even in Sangam texts, PeNNai in the sense of palmyra are not many. This meaning is already archaic by Sangam age (2nd cent. BC - 2nd cent. AD). Can this be the reason why modern Telugu dictionaries or Telugu texts miss this meaning? porunai, as in taNporunai and Aan2porunai, seems to come from the verb 'poru' , like aaRu < aRu as pointed out by Prof. Selvakumar. Even a Sangam poet is named after a famous phrase he employs in a poem - "kal poru ciRu nurai". Regards, V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sat Mar 20 13:39:55 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 08:39:55 -0500 Subject: CBS 60 Minutes on caste violence in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047635.23782.8838603943225558910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The CBS news program 60 Minutes will be airing a piece titled The Untouchables on caste violence and untouchability in India this Sunday, March 21, at 7:00 p.m. Human Rights Watch provided much background information for this broadcast and is publishing a report on caste violence in India to be released mid-April 1999. (Info source: sec-dem-sa, etc.) ________________________ There was a long article in New York Times, March 15 (Monday) on violence on "dalits/untouchables" in Bihar (India). That article might have prompted this upcoming show on CBS. The NYT article didn't have any mention of how dalits and the poor were killed and tortured during the past Congress regimes in India (Congress party is now led by Sonia Gandhi, a favorite of the US and Western govts and media). People are being led to believe by the media that oppression and killing of the poor and "lower castes" is just a recent phenomenon in India and it has only started during the fascist/supremacist BJP/RSS/VHP regime. -Partha Banerjee From boudalfa at STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Sat Mar 20 08:03:27 1999 From: boudalfa at STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Heike Boudalfa) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 09:03:27 +0100 Subject: Adress Message-ID: <161227047626.23782.6924443742157721792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Daniel, I don't know if this is what you want, but I got the adress of Prof. Saroja Bhate of the University of Pune - I don't know exactly what he's doing, but he might be a professor of the Sanskrit Department. His adress is: saroja at unipune.ernet.in Maybe he can help you. Heike ---------- > Von: Daniel Stender > An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Betreff: Adress > Datum: Freitag, 19. Mdrz 1999 23:41 > > Can anybody tell me, if they have an e-mail-adress at > the executive director, international student4s cell at the > university of pune ? > Thanks for any advice. > > Daniel Stender From ramakris at EROLS.COM Sat Mar 20 14:17:04 1999 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 09:17:04 -0500 Subject: Address of Prof. R. Balsubramanian Message-ID: <161227047640.23782.11367212952108824767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Does anyone have the current address of Prof. R. Balasubramanian, the former Director of Radhakrishnan Institute, University of Madras? Thank you. Rama From shrao at IA.NET Sat Mar 20 15:20:49 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 09:20:49 -0600 Subject: Looking for an out-of-print book Message-ID: <161227047648.23782.16095170747310450680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten wrote: > I have been trying to locate a copy of the following title, published by the > S?dasien-Institut, Heidelberg: > > Jyotisa : das System der indischen Astrologie [Jyotisa : the system of The Research Libraries Information Network (RLIN), which by experience I have learned is a good place to look for such material, gives the following information: Author: Turstig, Hans-Georg. Title: Jyotisa : das System der indischen Astrologie / Published: Wiesbaden : Steiner, 1980. Subjects: Hindu astrology. ======= Locations ========= Stanford University Libraries; University of California, Berkeley; Library of Congress; Emory University; University of Michigan; Columbia University Libraries; Cornell University; New York Public Library; University of Pennsylvania Libraries Hope this works for you. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Martin Gansten From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Mar 20 05:11:29 1999 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 10:11:29 +0500 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047623.23782.3828195203711076615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The possible related group I can think of is DEDR 4160a. *pee.n-:*pe.n-V- 'to twine, twist' with cognates in all subgroups. wee.nii is perhaps derived from this verb. I do not have Mayrhoffer readily to check. The course of a river looks like a long plaited hair (which is what wee.nii means in wee.niisaMhaara 'untying the wee.nii'). This accounts for Kr.s.nawee.nii. The River Pennaa near Nellore is Sanskritized as Pinaakinii. pe.n.n-ee_r/pe.n.n-aa_r can be derived from the same route meaning'a river of twisted course' (like the 'snake river' below). DEDR gives Ta. pen.n.nai 'palmyra'with the group of words meaning 'woman, female, etc.', and no other Dravidian lg. shows that meaning. Another possibility is 4436 *pee.n -**pe.n-V- 'protect, increase, etc.' Telugu pennaa could be an abridgement of penn-aa_r (with the loss of final _r), although in Telugu the normal word is ee_ru (<*yaa_t-). The isogloss of aa- (<*yaa-)could touch Nellore, like tiru- in tirupati. Bh.K. At 17:26 19/03/99 -0500, you wrote: >This is what I wonder about. Again not the prevalence of plam trees, but >the most common river names are 'white' ,"milky' (= quick, in the >mountains), and 'black (=slow, in the plains), or red (if full of mud as in >monsoon, or iron), etc. Then, of course, 'crooked" etc., etc. >Of course, you can name a river after peculiar local landmarks or natural >phenomena as well (Wind / Snake/ Beaver river, in Wyoming, Colorado etc., >Double Mountain Fork in Texas, Red Deer in Alberta, Canada), and I guess >there must be a Fir River or Lake somewhere in Canada... > >But such names are not so typical as the others... That is why I would like >to hear from the linguists what the Drav. roots and their meaning of >peNN-Ar/ai, Porunai etc. would be .... > >>Are the TN rivers taNporunai (sanskritized as tAmraparNI) > >--- again a strange name in Skt. as in all adaptations: red/copper >(colored) - leaved River? > >>and Aan2porunai ( later Amaravati, Amravati) also related to Nahali 'parayn'?? > >I really wonder: why all these PennAru (A.P., sic, on my map) , PeNN-ar/-ai >rivers in the South if there is no(?) good etymological explanation...? ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 (A.P.), India Telephone:40-7019665 E-mail: From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Mar 20 09:26:25 1999 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 10:26:25 +0100 Subject: Address of Prof. R. Balsubramanian In-Reply-To: <01be72dc$543ce0c0$53efaccf@ramakris> Message-ID: <161227047643.23782.17316282695918688481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> His home address is R. Balasubramanian 5 Bhagirathy Street Srinivasa Avenue R. A. Puram MADRAS 28 John >Dear Indologists, > >Does anyone have the current address of Prof. R. Balasubramanian, the >former Director of Radhakrishnan Institute, University of Madras? >Thank you. > >Rama From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 20 19:51:26 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 11:51:26 -0800 Subject: Kerala-vishaya? Message-ID: <161227047654.23782.3689419389799611968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten asks: >Sorry for asking what may be a very basic question, but historical geography is not my forte: in a text which I am assuming to be no earlier than the 17th century (possibly later), I find mention of a certain brahmin named so-and-so who lived 'in the district of Kerala' (kerale vi.saye). Could anyone tell me how well this term may correspond to the present Kerala state? Thanks in advance. > I was hoping that somebody more familiar with the geography of Kerala would field this question, but I'll tell you what I know..The district of "Kerala" would, IMHO, be the northern most part of Kerala adjoining Karnataka i.e. the kasaragOD district..tuLu, as opposed to malayALam is spoken widely here..In this area, you also have towns with names like kEraLApurA.. Regards, Krishna ker Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 20 17:21:56 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 12:21:56 -0500 Subject: Ref. check verse 7.22 Bhagavad Gita Message-ID: <161227047652.23782.6144023625199571320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If anyone could tell me if the BORI critical edition 1947 reading for Bhagavad Gita verse 7.22 is "tasyA rAdhanam" or "tasyA ArAdhanam" I would greatly appreciate it. Belvalkar 1962 and The Mahabharata at Dr. J.D. Smith's web site both read "tasyA rAdhanam". Belvalkar does not list "ArAdhanam" as a variation. Dr. van Buitenen in "The Bhagavadgita in the Mahabharata", Col. Jacob's concordance, Apte's Practical Sanskrit Dictionary and the popular editions I checked including Dr. Radhakrishnan use "ArAdhanam". Sankaracharya's Bhasya in Warrier's edition from Ramakrishna Math paraphrases both i.e. "... rAdhanam ArAdhanam Ihate" Many thanks Harry Spier Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Sat Mar 20 12:38:33 1999 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 13:38:33 +0100 Subject: [Info] Summer Telugu Language Courses Message-ID: <161227047632.23782.4781966813669335573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following is information regarding Summer Telugu Language Courses at University of Wisconsin, Madison. Regards -- V. Chowdary Jampala -------- Original Message -------- Information on summer Telugu from Professor Velcheru Narayana Rao SUMMER TELUGU LANGUAGE COURSES Intensive Study June 7 - August 15, 1999 Two consecutive five-week sessions make up the intensive ten-week Asian Languages Program. The first session is offered June 7-July 11 (session code CEE) and is followed by The second session, July 12-August 15 session (code HEE). Two sessions are the equivalent of two semesters of study. Students may take either one or two sessions. Classes in each session meet four hours a day, five days a week. Together these sessions provide students with the equivalent of one complete year of language training. Unless otherwise noted in the official summer timetable, undergraduate and special students earn ten credits in the ten-week period; graduate students earn eight. Telugu is the second largest language of India spoken by about 60 million people. Telugu-speaking people, commonly living in the state of Andhra Pradesh, are characterized by their use of very expressive and musical language which has continuous classical literary tradition from the 11th century and a dynamic modern literature. Telugu is equally well known for its great oral literature. LangAsia 303 & 304. Elementary Telugu Intensive teaches script and focuses on conversational and reading skills. Students do not need any prior knowledge of the language. The class room atmosphere is user-friendly, intense but enjoyable. The progress that students make from virtually no knowledge in the language to a level where they comfortably converse in Telugu on ordinary topics related to daily life is highly rewarding. Usually students who want to go to Andhra Pradesh to do their fieldwork have taken this course. Easy Admission and Registration UW-Madison students continuing from 1997-98 spring semester do NOT NEED TO APPLY FOR SUMMER 1999. Continuing students simply touch-tone register according to instructions from the Registrar's Office. New and reentry students should register for summer as early as possible. Contact the following offices for information and applications. University Special/Guest Student Office 905 University Avenue Madison, WI 53715-1005 Phone: 608/262-2115 FAX: 608/265-2901 Nondegree students and students visiting from other campuses are among students enrolled at UW-Madison as University Special and Guest Students: E-Mail: nondegree.student at ccmail.adp.wisc.edu Undergraduate Admissions Office 140 Peterson Office Building 750 University Avenue Madison WI 53706-1490 Phone: 608/262-3961 Graduate School Admissions Office, 228 Bascom Hall, 500 Lincoln Drive, Madison WI 53706-1380. Phone: 608/262-2433 Fees and Tuition (Expect an increase for Summer 1999) Summer fees include use of the Wisconsin Union, campus laboratories and libraries, health and recreational services. Resident undergraduate and special students $918.95 for 10 credits Nonresident undergraduate and special students $3,179.95 for 10 credits Resident graduate students 1,435.95 for eight credits Nonresident graduate students $4,465.95 for eight credits Summer Housing University Residence Halls, many with food service, are open to men and women on a space-available basis. Brochures and applications are available from the Residence Halls Office, Schlicter Hall, 625 Babcock Drive, Madison, WI 53706; Phone: 608/262-5576; FAX: 608/262-4082. Many rooms, efficiencies and apartments are available close to campus. The Campus Assistance Center, 420 North Lake Street, Madison, can provide vacancy listings for a small fee. For information call 608/263-2400. Contact Information: For a copy of the UW-Madison Summer Bulletin/Timetable (with official course listings and application form), contact the Division of Continuing Studies, Office of Summer Sessions, 905 University Avenue, Madison, WI 53715-1005. Phone :608/262-2115. More information may also be obtained from the UW-Madison Registrar's Web Page. Languages and Cultures of Asia, 1240 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Drive, Madison, WI 53706 can provide more information on the Asian Language courses. Call 608/262-0524; fax: 608/265-3538. E-Mail: LangAsia at facstaff.wisc.edu; http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/langasia Terri Wipperfurth, Graduate Coordinator Languages and Cultures of Asia (formerly South Asian Studies) 1238 Van Hise Hall, University of Wisconsin-Madison Phone: 608/262-3012, Fax: 608/265-3538 http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/langasia From boudalfa at STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Sat Mar 20 14:10:38 1999 From: boudalfa at STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Heike Boudalfa) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 15:10:38 +0100 Subject: Saroja Bhate Message-ID: <161227047638.23782.16032342180519064000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Madhav Deshpande, thank you very much for your information about the University of Pune and Prof. Bhate. I am not familiar with indian names, and it is really a shame that one automatically considers a person to be male if she/he has a high degree. Best wishes from Heike Boudalfa (female) ---------- > Von: Madhav Deshpande > An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Betreff: Re: Saroja Bhate > Datum: Samstag, 20. Mdrz 1999 12:59 > > By the way, Professor Saroja Bhate is a "she", the chair of the Department > of Sanskrit and Prakrit Languages at the University of Pune. The website > for the University of Pune can be reached at: http://www.unipune.ernet.in/ > Best, > Madhav Deshpande > > On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Heike Boudalfa wrote: > > > Dear Daniel, > > I don't know if this is what you want, but I got the adress of Prof. Saroja > > Bhate of the University of Pune - I don't know exactly what he's doing, but > > he might be a professor of the Sanskrit Department. > > His adress is: saroja at unipune.ernet.in > > Maybe he can help you. > > Heike > > > > ---------- > > > Von: Daniel Stender > > > An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > > Betreff: Adress > > > Datum: Freitag, 19. Mdrz 1999 23:41 > > > > > > Can anybody tell me, if they have an e-mail-adress at > > > the executive director, international student4s cell at the > > > university of pune ? > > > Thanks for any advice. > > > > > > Daniel Stender > > From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Mar 20 20:40:58 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 20:40:58 +0000 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047646.23782.17245359449228445127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Bh.Krishnamurti" wrote: > The possible related group I can think of is DEDR 4160a. *pee.n-:*pe.n-V-> 'to twine, twist' with cognates in all subgroups. wee.nii is perhaps derived> from this verb. I do not have Mayrhoffer readily to check. The course of a > river looks like a long plaited hair (which is what wee.nii means in > wee.niisaMhaara 'untying the wee.nii'). This accounts for Kr.s.nawee.nii... Thanks for the insight. One may also refer to DEDR 3668: nin.a (-pp-, -nt-/-tt-) to braid (Ta.); nin. twisted string (To.); nin.e, nen., nine a wick (Tu.) ve_y (-v-, -nt-) to thatch (Ta.); ve_yn to thatch (Gadba); ve_n! (Parji) Hence, ve_n.i (Skt.)? bani = a current of water caused by heavy rain (Malt.)? Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Mar 21 03:42:03 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 99 22:42:03 -0500 Subject: River Krishna In-Reply-To: <19990320160328.3486.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047664.23782.10557404589823637408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank all respondents to this discussion ( I, personally, not a Dravidian specialist, I learned a lot.) For those who are interested in these questions I suggest the very comprehensive and useful summary and overview of studies in (mosty, South) Indian place name by M.N. Nampoothiry, Indian Toponymy. A critical evaluation of the work done in this field in India with a bibliography in: Puthusseri Ramachandran and K. Nachimuthu (eds.) Perspectives in Place Name Studies : Proceedings of the National Seminar on South Indian Place Names, Held at Trivandrum on 21-23 June 1985. A Festschrift to Prof. V.I. Subramoniam, On His Sixtieth Birth Day. Trivandrum : Place Name Society, 1987. p. 1-47. This book also includes including a good bibliography, also of unpublished Indian PhD theses. (Their address: T.C. 13/844 Thampuranmukku, Kunnukuzhi, Trivandrum 695 037) (Nothing on our specific problem, as far as I see) Regards MW> ========================================================================== Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Mar 21 16:56:40 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 99 11:56:40 -0500 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047667.23782.232219039296720963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 3/21/99 4:25:15 AM Central Standard Time, veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN writes: > Perhaps it could have derived from veni(Krishnaveni) as veni > also means river both generic as well as specific. According to D. C. Sircar, the following rivers are mentioned in Puranas. Origin in the Vindhya: ------------------------------- veNvA - identified with the waingaGgA which joins the prANhitA (praNItA of a medieval inscription from Manthani) and falls into godAvarI. Origin in the Sahya: ---------------------------- veNvA - modern varNA which runs between the Satara and Kolhapur Districts and joins the kRSNA, the combined stream being often called kRSNaveNvA or kRSNaveNA. Sircar also says kRSNaveNI-nadI is mentioned in the Ramayana. I am curious how old is the use of braided hair as a metaphorical description of a river? According to MMW the earliest use is in mahAbhArata. Was there any such use before that? With the Vedic culture centered around a region with multiple rivers as tributaries of Indus, is there any such usage in the Vedic texts? In other words, which came first -- a pre-existing word for river leading to this Sanskritic interpretation or the concept of river as a braid resulting in river names ending in vENi/I? Regards S. Palaniappan From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Mar 21 16:57:48 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 99 11:57:48 -0500 Subject: Clarification to Ref. check verse 7.22 Bhagavad Gita Message-ID: <161227047669.23782.13093693821524665685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote: >If anyone could tell me if the BORI critical edition 1947 reading for >Bhagavad Gita verse 7.22 is "tasyA rAdhanam" or "tasyA ArAdhanam" I >would greatly appreciate it. > !!!"tasyA ArAdhanam" should read "tasyArAdhanam" >Belvalkar 1962 and The Mahabharata at Dr. J.D. Smith's web site both >read "tasyA rAdhanam". Belvalkar does not list "ArAdhanam" as a >variation. > >Dr. van Buitenen in "The Bhagavadgita in the Mahabharata", Col. Jacob's >concordance, Apte's Practical Sanskrit Dictionary and the popular >editions I checked including Dr. Radhakrishnan use "ArAdhanam". > >Sankaracharya's Bhasya in Warrier's edition from Ramakrishna Math >paraphrases both i.e. "... rAdhanam ArAdhanam Ihate" > > >?From a private communication it appears the above needs some clarification: In van Buitenen the entry is "tasyArAdhanam". Apte's dictionary under "ArAdhanam" has a reference to Bg. 7.22 (without an actual quote). J. G. Jacobs has "Bg. 7.22 tasyArAdhanam" under the entry "ArAdhan" and no entry for "ArAdhanam". Many apologies, Harry Spier Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Mar 21 06:51:54 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 99 12:21:54 +0530 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227047657.23782.14653471870885274480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Dr. R. N. Dandekar: 90 not out Cc: March 20, 1999 Not many Indologists the world over may be aware that Dr. R. N. (raamacandra naaraayaNa) Dandekar has completed 90 years of his active life as a scholar, teacher, administrator and organizer, on March 17, 1999. A biographical note on his life and work is under preparation and will shortly be posted in the Indology List. As one who has the privilege of having been his student, I felicitated him on this occasion with a Sanskrit verse which runs as follows: bhuuyaMso bhuvane bhavanti guravo ye naama zabdaplavair jnaanaambhonidhilanghane dhRtimato vidyaarthinaH kurvate / jnaanaambhodhitalaM vigaahya suciraM ratnaany avaaptuM balaM ziZye jaagarayanti ye gurutamaas te durlabhaas tvaadRzaaH // And I add a verse I wrote on him 20 years ago on a similar occasion: taM numo 'nyaH zaraNyo na zabdazrutividaaM yataH / api candram aziitaaMzuM bhiiZmaM raamaabhidhaM gurum // Note: zabdazrutividaaM = (of) scholars of grammar and of Veda. KSA From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Mar 21 21:10:44 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 99 13:10:44 -0800 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047674.23782.10419003218554604355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> << Referring to the ongoing discussion on R.Kishna, while it is no doubt the term pennai means the palm tree-now commenly known as panaimaram, it is baffling to associate pennai/panai with riverbanks and rivers as panai is a quintessential arid region vegetation. >> Cheras, the Kerala Chiefs in the Sangam age, have palmyra tree as their symbol even though their land is not arid and usually drenched by southwest monsoon. Regards, V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Mar 21 21:28:29 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 99 13:28:29 -0800 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047676.23782.15076965406566870223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< The name pennai for these 3 rivers may therefore need further looking into.Perhaps it could have derived from veni(Krishnaveni) as veni also means river both generic as well as specific. >>> Interestingly, Kamban in his masterpiece (Ramayanam, 9th or 11th c.) calls a river, :"kariya peNNai" = black peNNA!!! After hemakUTa, the monkeys are instructed to reach "kariya peNNai" (black peNNai) river and then on to daNDakAraNya in the Deccan. This for searching Sita. noytin2, am malai nIGki, numaroTum poykaiyin2 karai piRpaTap pOtirAl; ceyya peNNai, kariya peNNaic cila vaikal tETi, kaTitu vazikoLvIr. (kiTkintA kANTam, nATaviTTa paTalam) "After passing narmadha river, search in the hemakUta mountain, then search for the Laxmi (ceyy peN = ceyyAL) near the black peNNai for a few days." The Kamban Kazakam edition (1984) says "kariya peNNai" (black peNNai) refers to vEngaGgA river. Regards, V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Mar 21 09:20:00 1999 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 99 14:20:00 +0500 Subject: Help please Message-ID: <161227047660.23782.3906050655883587532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists: If you have on-line catalogue of your library holdings, would you kindly help me with the missing details of the following titles: 1.Lieut.-Col. Marshall. 1873. A Phrenologist among the Tudas. London: Truebners. (What is the initial/first name of the author?Are the other details OK?). 2. Sonnenschein. 1925. What is Rhythm? Oxford: ? (The initial of the author and the pubisher. Is it Clarendon Press?) I will be grateful for information on the above titles. Thanks in advance. Sincerely, Bh.K. ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 (A.P.), India Telephone:40-7019665 E-mail: From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Mar 21 20:35:53 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 99 15:35:53 -0500 Subject: River Krishna In-Reply-To: <19990318133019.19620.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047662.23782.4733031667626010634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Referring to the ongoing discussion on R.Kishna, while it is no doubt the term pennai means the palm tree-now commenly known as panaimaram,it is baffling to associate pennai/panai with riverbanks and rivers as pnai is aquintessential arid region vegetation. Pennai appears to be back formation of pennar-like Kovai,Thanjai etc. rather than other way round. The name pennai for these 3 rivers may therefore need further looking into.Perhaps it could have derived from veni(Krishnaveni) as veni also means river both generic as well as specific. Krish. From krishna at TICNET.COM Sun Mar 21 23:13:34 1999 From: krishna at TICNET.COM (Krishna Susarla) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 99 17:13:34 -0600 Subject: All-India Kashiraj Trust Puranas Message-ID: <161227047678.23782.8824690558516722264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The All-India Kashiraj Trust published three translations of the Puranas with Sanskrit and verse-by-verse English translation. I was wondering if anyone could tell me if these editions are still in print by Kashiraj. If so, what bookstores in South India might they be available? -- K From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Mar 21 18:20:42 1999 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 99 23:20:42 +0500 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <161227047672.23782.3269952938442473680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Professor Witzel and Srinvas Parchuri for supplying the bibliographical references that I needed. Bh.K. ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 (A.P.), India Telephone:40-7019665 E-mail: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Mar 22 15:20:14 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 99 07:20:14 -0800 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047684.23782.9042290471810021393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Perhaps it could have derived from veni(Krishnaveni) >as veni also means river both generic as well as specific. Both the letters, "p" and "v" are available in Tamil and hence no necessity to tamilize veNNA as peNNai; It does not appear that veNNA is changed to peNNA in the river names. Rather, it looks peNNA was translated into vENI in Sanskrit. Mistranslations from Tamil/Dravidian to Sanskrit in place, river, deity names are well known; eg., aJcolAL (=madhura vacanAmbika/subhASiNI) was translated as abhayamba (by taking amcolAL as aJcalAL). In Tamil literature, we have South PeNNai river joining the sea at Cuddalore (S. Arcot dt.) and North PeNNAr river near Nellore, A.P. Kamban refers to "kariya peNNai" (= krishNa peNNA) river. Modern commentators say this is vEngaGgA river, south of Narmadha river. Vedam Venkataraya Sastri says krishnaveni's original name is kaNNapeNNAr. In addition, Buddhist Jatakas and Hathigumpha inscription of Khaaravela call as "kaNha peNNA". Is peNNA -> veNNA -> veNI transformation reasonable to take? Any pointers on this hydronymy are highly appreciated. Regards, N. Ganesan Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Mar 22 02:11:43 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 99 07:41:43 +0530 Subject: Dr. R. N. Dandekar: 90 not out -- supplement Message-ID: <161227047680.23782.914205283594147513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> March 22, 1999 Here is the Devanaagarii version of my verses on Dr. R. N. Dandekar posted yesterday. I am sorry for the compromises I had to make in spellings owing to the PC's stubbornness! -Uya k vRte }anaM-aeixtl< ivga? suicr< r?aNyva?u< bl< iz:ye jagryiNt ye gu?tmas! te ?lR-as! Tva?za> t< numae=Ny> zr{yae n zBd?uitivda< yt> Aip cN?mzIta British Library online catalogue ... Shelfmark: 10055.ee.24; T 36240 Author: MARSHALL William Elliot Title: A Phrenologist amongst the Todas; or the study of a primitive tribe in South India history, character, customs, religion, infanticide, polyandry, language ... illustrations by the autotype process. Publisher: London, 1873. 8o. Subject (LCSH): Toda (Indic people) Shelfmark: 011840.a.59. Author: SONNENSCHEIN Edward Adolf Title: What is Rhythm? An essay ... accompanied by an appendix on experimental syllable-measurement, etc. Publisher: pp. viii. 228. Basil Blackwell: Oxford, 1925. 8o. -----Original Message----- From: Bh.Krishnamurti [mailto:bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN] Sent: 21 March 1999 09:20 To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Help please Dear Indologists: If you have on-line catalogue of your library holdings, would you kindly help me with the missing details of the following titles: 1.Lieut.-Col. Marshall. 1873. A Phrenologist among the Tudas. London: Truebners. (What is the initial/first name of the author?Are the other details OK?). 2. Sonnenschein. 1925. What is Rhythm? Oxford: ? (The initial of the author and the pubisher. Is it Clarendon Press?) I will be grateful for information on the above titles. Thanks in advance. Sincerely, Bh.K. ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 (A.P.), India Telephone:40-7019665 E-mail: From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Mar 23 16:20:49 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 11:20:49 -0500 Subject: River Krishna In-Reply-To: <19990322152014.7170.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047690.23782.8802124005327470473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is quite possible that veni might be the sanskritised form of pennai.Nor the historical referrances to pennai rivers are in question. the point is it does appear to be logical to associate panaimarams to river banks-no poet can drool over panai-lined rivers. Besides, the geo-physical characters are so different as to have panai/pennai as a common factor! There are two villages -Pennagaram and pennathur-not far from the river course of Thenpennai.perhaps, the origins of these place names can lead somewhere. Regards, Krish. From yaap at XS4ALL.NL Tue Mar 23 15:03:03 1999 From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 16:03:03 +0100 Subject: Mark Leisher's Naidunia Devanagari converter Message-ID: <161227047692.23782.11958052311672190165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded message from Mark Leisher, of possible interest to Indology list members. Mr Leisher is not member of this list. ---------------- forwarded message --------------------- Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Uml-Sequence: 7259 (1999-03-01 18:19:14 GMT) From: Mark Leisher To: Unicode List Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:19:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Naidunia Devanagari converter and BDF font available I have put together a Perl script to convert Naidunia font-encoded Devanagari text to UCS2 (big-endian, with BOM). This is the first version, so please let me know if you find problems with it or make improvements. http://crl.nmsu.edu/~mleisher/nai.html or ftp://crl.nmsu.edu/CLR/multiling/unicode/nai2ucs.pl An 18pt BDF font with most of the glyphs needed for basic Unicode Devanagari text (half-consonants and most common ligatures) is available at: http://crl.nmsu.edu/~mleisher/devnag.html or ftp://crl.nmsu.edu/CLR/multiling/unicode/fonts/devnag18.bdf.gz ------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Leisher Computing Research Lab ... but as they say, New Mexico State University "I like to put the 'punk' back in punctual." Box 30001, Dept. 3CRL -- Hurl Everstone, Dirt Rag #70 Interview Las Cruces, NM 88003 ---------------- end forwarded message ------------------- Furthermore, according to Mr Leisher: The script should run with no problems on Windows and Mac as well, as long as a Perl interpreter has been installed: http://www.perl.com/pace/pub/perldocs/latest.html The important thing is the mapping table and the three conversion rules, which can be easily reconstructed in another programming language. -- JP * From partha at CAPITAL.NET Tue Mar 23 21:29:32 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 16:29:32 -0500 Subject: CBS' 60 Minutes on untouchability and caste violence in India In-Reply-To: <199901060846.CAA27528@dune.artic.edu> Message-ID: <161227047696.23782.2339218063447487262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My observations on the show aired March 21 on CBS (in case it matters to anyone): 1. Factually inaccurate -- it shows BJP flagbearers (and only BJP flags for that matter) as sort of emancipators of the dalits when in reality, BJP, RSS, and VHP have been highly supportive of the Hindu caste system (although RSS leaders have spoken against social discriminations, they have never disfavored the system itself -- that is pro-status quo conservatism to me and root cause for such evils). The killer militia Ranvir Sena is a militia of upper caste landlords in Bihar, and traditionally, upper caste landlords have supported BJP and the Congress. It is often alleged that Ranvir Sena is linked with both parties. 2. Characteristic suppression of facts -- the show does not mention how peoples' organizations in India have worked very hard to empower the oppressed as that honest disclosure would highlight left and progressive political and social groups and people which is anathema to western media; so, show BJP flags, but no reds, period. (Incidentally, US media did the same when they showed the last rites of Mother Teresa -- they never went on-record to highlight peoples' movements in Calcutta and Bengal as if they were non-existent!). 3. Gross generalization -- it is projected in a way as if the whole country of India and the religion of Hinduism are blanket-supportive of such brutality and oppression on the so-called untouchables and condone caste system and its discrimination without exception; the show does mention Mahatma Gandhi (to the west, he is the ONLY savior of modern India with his non-violence, moderate views, and all), but again, conveniently bypasses social and political "radical" movements. Who in the west has ever heard of Rammohan Ray, Vivekananda, Keshav Chandra Sen, Ambedkar, or Jyotirao Phuley? 4. Slant in favor of Christian efforts -- a Christian person is shown to be the one who is working to alleviate the pain of the dalits (and who is talking against the oppressive system); although I have nothing against anybody working to uplift the poorest of the poor, I find this mention characteristically slanted in favor of Christianity specially when parallel works are intentionally bypassed. 5. All-pervasive Western media -- Yes, CBS and its hired CNN bigshot Christiane Amanpour (who is married to State Department spokesman James Rubin) manage to get permission to film in an area under judicial probe; hence we can imagine how all-pervasive and all-influential the western media is: Orwellian brainwashing is very much on. Sincere regards, Partha Banerjee From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Mar 24 02:37:29 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 99 02:37:29 +0000 Subject: peNNai, piNai, piNi, piTi ( RE:River Krishna)] Message-ID: <161227047694.23782.17037205977272426122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Chandrasekaran, Periannan" wrote: > Occurrences of "peNNai" in the long poems of the sangkam era's > pattuppATTu anthologies"> "thIm peNNai maTal cErppavaum" (porunarARRuppaTai: 207)> ->"[the herons] staying in the leaves of the sweet palm tree" pen.n.ai could be an abbreviate form of pen. pan-ai = female palmyra pal; the component phonemes are perhaps unrelated to the river semant. The distinction between male and female trees is that the male tree of a species yields gum resin... Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Mar 24 04:40:25 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 99 04:40:25 +0000 Subject: peNNai, piNai, piNi, piTi ( RE:River Krishna) Message-ID: <161227047702.23782.6545774308853834786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Chandrasekaran, Periannan" wrote: > Doesn't the Ta. peNNai denote both male and female palmyra tree; > and not just the female palmyra tree?> I would really be interested in knowing such a usage for that word.> And the word for male palm(yra) tree if any. Let me cite from DEDR 4395 and DEDR 4037: pen.n.ai = palmyra palm (cf. pen.-pan-ai = female palmyra palm); pen.t.i = the female o any animal or plant (Te.); pin.ai = female of animals (Ta.); pr.n.a_ka = young female (of deer, in the cpd. harin.a-pr.n.a_ka_)(Skt.) pan-ai (in cpds.) pan-am = palmyra palm, borassus flaellifer (Ta.); pana a palm-tree, esp. palmyra (Ma.); pane = the bastard sago tree, caryota urens (Ka.); pane-mara = toddy palm (Kod.agu) It would appear that the pan-ai was a more generic usage for the palm species with descriptive cpds. used to denote more specific categories. Kalyan ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 25 15:39:29 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 99 07:39:29 -0800 Subject: peNNai, piNai, piNi, piTi ( RE:River Krishna)] Message-ID: <161227047708.23782.18442917123190652368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > pen.n.ai could be an abbreviate form of pen. pan-ai = female palmyra pal; the > component phonemes are perhaps unrelated to the river semant. Checked with few Tamilists. They told that pen.n.ai is not from pen. + pan-ai. Tamil dictionaries give pen.n.ai as palmyrah, it could be either male or female. Any thoughts from experts? SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 25 09:55:44 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 99 09:55:44 +0000 Subject: Conference on Religion in South India (fwd) Message-ID: <161227047706.23782.6481032894125363955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:30:10 -0500 From: afroz taj Subject: Conference on Religion in South India Please see the following URL for information about this year's Conference on Religion in South India titled: "The Role of Place: Regional Religious Encounter with/in South India." This year's conference is hosted by the Triangle South Asia Consortium. The venue is North Carolina State University at Raleigh, NC, 11-13 June 1999. **THIS YEAR'S KEYNOTE SPEAKER WILL BE Phillip B. Wagoner Associate Professor of Art History Curator, Mansfield Freeman Center for East Asian Studies Department of Art and Art History Wesleyan University WHO WILL SPEAK ON "FROM THE THRONE OF JAMSHID TO THE CITY OF VICTORY: ISLAMICATE CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE CITY PLAN OF VIJAYANAGARA." For registration, travel arrangements (air, hotel), paper and panel proposals, see http://www2.ncsu.edu/tsac/crsi/ **THE E-MAIL AND TELEPHONE ADDRESSES OF THE TRAVEL AGENCY WERE ORIGINALLY WRONGLY LISTED. PLEASE SEE THE WEB PAGE FOR THE CORRECT ADDRESSES. Looking forward to seeing you in June, I am Sincerely yours, Tony K. Stewart Director North Carolina Center for South Asia Studies Triangle South Asia Consortium 3220 Old Stacks, D. H. Hill Library Box 7111 North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8101 USA ph. 919/515-6335 (dept. office) ph. 919/513-8723 (Center office) fax 919/515-7856 (dept. fax) fax 919/513-1447 (Center fax) e-mail The Triangle South Asia Consortium is an educational cooperative of the specialized South Asia faculties of North Carolina State University, Duke University, the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, and North Carolina Central University. Afroz Taj Assistant Professor Hindi-Urdu Program, NCSU Director, Triangle South Asia Consortium 919-515-9302 (direct) or 919-515-2475 (dept) Room 144, 1911 Building Dept. of Foreign Languages and Literature North Carolina State University Raleigh NC 27695 919-851-1119 102 Trinity Woods Dr. Raleigh NC 27607 From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Thu Mar 25 03:07:13 1999 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 99 14:07:13 +1100 Subject: Prakrit and Sanskrit Manuscripts from Patan (North Gujarat) Message-ID: <161227047704.23782.9452603652223498464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been asked by a trustee of the major Jain manuscript library in PATAN to publicise the fact that copies of manuscripts (palm-leaf and paper) held in that library, the Hemacandracarya Jain Jnana Mandir, are being made available to scholars for the purpose of research. There are two published catalogues to consult for reference numbers. The first by Muni Punyavijaya (only v. 1 was ever published): Patana-Srihemacandracaryajainajnanamandirasthita Jaina Jnanabhandaronum sucipatra (Uttara Gujarata ; Shri Hemacandracarya Jaina Jnaaamandira, 1972). The second published under Muni Jambuvijaya (3 volumes) repeating some of the information in the 1972 (although the 1972 entries give fuller information): Anahilapataka (Patana) nagarasthajainagranthabhandagarantargatanam hastalikhitagranthanam sucih (Amadavada : Saradabena Cimanabhai Ejyukesanala Risarch Sentara, 1991). Scholars interested in obtaining copies of manuscripts from this collection should in the first instance contact: Mr. Yatin V. Shah, Trustee, Hemacandracarya Jain Gyan Mandir 10A Bharati Society, Sardar Road, Patan, North Gujarat 384 265 INDIA ph (02766) 31768 or (02766) 20717 (maybe the 0 is not needed to call from outside India) Remembering of course that this is a privately administered collection (immaculately housed and arranged I may add). In the recent past access has been indifferent for a number of reasons, however when I visited Patan in December 1998 I was, with the help of this trustee and his family, able to obtain in one day copies of the two manuscripts I needed (maybe something about new brooms). Royce Wiles Asian History Centre Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 26 00:49:59 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 99 00:49:59 +0000 Subject: Indian onager Message-ID: <161227047709.23782.4016151258267198140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, A nice picture is at: http://www.deer.rr.ualberta.ca/library/taxonomy/onager.html The early solid-wheeled chariot of Sumer is drawn by an onager. I would appreciate guidance on predicting the ancient form, say of ca. 3000 BC in Rajasthan, of the related lexemes. CDIAL 4054 has gardabha (Skt.). DEDR 1364 has Parji gade, garad; Gondi ga_r.di; Kuwi ga_r.de; Te. ga_d.ida; Ta. kar..utai Is the consonantal change k>g or g>k? Thanks. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Fri Mar 26 17:08:58 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 99 12:08:58 -0500 Subject: Indian onager Message-ID: <161227047713.23782.2351923181305703222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Jules Bloch proposed intial g- in this form for Proto-Dravidian like **g(a)ard- which he said is preserved in Telugu as a g- form ga:.dida, and as *g(a)ard-abha in Sanskrit. He said it was devoiced later in Ta. Ma. Ka., etc. *(South Dravidian). The Parji, etc. forms (gadha-type) are borrowed from Mdn *Indo-Aryan. I discussed this problem under intial voicing in my TVB. *Bh.K. Prof. Krishnamurti, I find your citation of Bloch's proposal interesting. It would be great if you can kindly share the supporting reasons. It is possible that k > g or g > k or even these transformations could have flip flopped over time, if one were to merely guess. How does one prove (or sunstantiate) that Tamil and Kannada 'devoiced', especially Kannada ? I'm asking this question in the interest of understanding the scientific basis or the methodology employed in arriving at this claim. Regards Selva ______________________ C.R.(Selva) Selvakumar From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 26 20:18:32 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 99 12:18:32 -0800 Subject: Indian onager Message-ID: <161227047720.23782.1198032620098930239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In kannada, donkey is 'katte';in tamil, it is 'kazutai'. The neck in kannada is 'kattu' & in tamil, 'kazuttu'. Are the words for 'neck' and 'onager' related? Because 'katte' (donkey) is connected to the cart thru' its 'kattu' (neck)? Wondering if the k>g or g>k changes observable in telugu and kannada for words meaning 'neck' too? SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From bvi at AFN.ORG Fri Mar 26 17:43:27 1999 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 99 12:43:27 -0500 Subject: What is the English equivalent of the ZAka tree? Message-ID: <161227047715.23782.6269186512897978760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the English equivalent of ZAka tree? Does it have any uses in ritual? It is described in the BhAgavata PurANa in connection with a place called ZAkadvIpa. Thank you for your help. Chris Beetle From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 26 19:51:35 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 99 14:51:35 -0500 Subject: Question on Jnaneshvari Message-ID: <161227047716.23782.8018769001222459437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the english translation of the Jnaneshvari. (translated from the Marathi by V.G. Pradhan and edited by H.M. Lambert) in chapter 10 between Jnaneshwars verses 203 and 208 are inserted verses 22 and 23 of the Bhagavad Gita (from Radhakrishnan's translation) but they are in the reverse order that they appear in the Bhagavad Gita proper. This makes them agree with Jnaneshwar's verse commentary as written in this edition. Could someone possibly tell me. If verses 204 through 208 in this translation agree with the Marathi original. And also in the Marathi original are the sanskrit verses from the Bhagavad Gita usually inserted and if so is it usual to reverse verses 22 and 23 in chapter 10. Thank You Harry Spier Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 27 04:21:39 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 99 20:21:39 -0800 Subject: Indian onager Message-ID: <161227047732.23782.48459436870989071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I would appreciate guidance on predicting the ancient form, say >of ca. 3000 BC in Rajasthan, of the related lexemes. CDIAL 4054 has > gardabha (Skt.). DEDR 1364 has Parji gade, garad; Gondi ga_r.di; > Kuwi ga_r.de; Te. ga_d.ida; Ta. kar..utai. > Is the consonantal change k>g or g>k? The change is from 'k' to 'g'. The other way as in the Telugu voicing is secondary and much later. Bh. Krishnamurthy in his Telugu verbal bases, p. 24, "Caldwell's assumption that there were no initial voiced plosives in PDr.as reflected in Ta. and Ma. was contradicted by Jules Bloch on the basis of the history of a few words like ghOTaka horse and drAviDa name of a people, which, according to him, were originally native to Dravidian. This view rceived support from some quarters and contradiction from others. Burrow argued for Caldwell and analytically put forth evidence to show that voicing of initial stops appearing in some of the Dravidian languages, was only secondary and did not represent PDr." Jules Bloch wrote about drAvida as the original word predating the word "tamizh". Zvelebil has analyzed this problem and shows that drAvida is ultimately derived from the root word, "tamizh". Hence, the consonantal change is k > g. Sincerely, V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Mar 27 01:48:45 1999 From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 99 20:48:45 -0500 Subject: Question on Jnaneshvari In-Reply-To: <19990326195135.21145.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047722.23782.10579926199060691425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry Spier, This is strange. If you have a chance, check _The Jnaneswari_ edited with satIp and translated by R.S. Lokapur, published by Nishant Prakashan, Belgaum, 1997. Here the order is the same as you have found it in Pradhan and Lambert. However, in a note about these two verses Lokapur writes, "In the accepted text of the Bhagavadgita this sloka [rudrANAm...] is numbered 23 and vedAnAm... is 22. In K [_Jnaneshwari_. P.N. Kulkarni, ed. Shivaji University, Kholapur. 1993.] and many other Mss also this standard order (i.e. the slokas and the relevant ovIs) is maintained." (571) I checked in a few other places. The order in these translations with commentary all have these two shlokas in the same order as they are found in the Gita, i.e. 22=vedAnAm and 23=rudrANAm: _Jnaneshwari_. Bhagwat, R.K., trans. 1979. Madras: Samata Books. He uses Bhide's version (see below) of the Jn for his translation. _Jnaneshwar's Gita_. Swami Kripananda, trans. 1989. Albany: SUNY. I'm not sure this is even a translation. The preface says that Kripananda does to the Jn was Bly did to Kabir. The puzzling thing is that as Bly reworded Tagore's version, K. supposedly rewords Pradhan and Lambert's version. However, K. doesn't use the same *order* of those two verses that P and L use. _Jnaneshwari_. Yardi, M.R., trans. 1991. Pune: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. Of the two (or one?) translators above, Yardi is most explicit about the issues concerning recensions of the Jn text. His translation is based on N. Sakhare's _Sartha Jnaneshwari_, which is the text accepted most by Warkaris. It is interesting that, as he says in his own words, "In the absence of such a critical edition" he should choose the edition "which is accepted by a majority of the Warkaris." (xvi) Yardi does note that S.N. Banhatti of the Bhandarkar Institute did complete a critical edition of the Jn up to the 12th chapter. If you have a friend in Pune, maybe see if you can have someone check this, probably to be found as _Shri Jnanadevi (Adhyaya barava)_, Pune, 1967. I would imagine it conforms to the Gita's order. In addition, one Marathi version of the _Jnaneshwari_ that is generally considered authoritative, the _Sartha Jnaneshwari_ edited with commentary by S.V. Dandekar (1986, Swananda Prakashan, Pune) keeps the Gita's order of the two shlokas, as does Bhide's very popular pocket version of the _Jnaneshwari_ with satIp, first issue in 1928, most recent in 1998. Dandekar draws his version from an old manuscript he found and believed to be authoritative. So Lokapur, and Pradhan and Lambert, seem to be the only two who keep this inversion of verses 22 and 23. Lokapur says he uses, as his title page reads, "Text as adopted by V.K. Rajwade". V.K. Rajwade and S.V. Dandekar (just mentioned above), both Warkaris involved in creating critical editions of the works of Marathi sants, each believed to have found the oldest manuscript available of the Jn. So Lokapur is pointing out that he used Rajwade's rather than Dandekar's manuscript. Perhaps Pradhan and Lambert also used Rajwade's text? I don't own their version so I can't check. My guess then is that the inversion occurs in the manuscript found by Rajwade and hence all translations based on Rajwade's manuscript contain the inversion (except for, curiously, Kripananda's version). On the other hand, all versions based on Dandekar's version have the verses in the same order as they appear in the Gita. As to other versions culled from old manuscripts, I hear there are at least two others, but I don't know anything about them. This also should indicate that there is no "Marathi original" really, but just opinions about which version is the Marathi original. I hope this is helpful and I haven't confused the issue. I've got a cold so I have a lot of time to kill sitting in my New York apartment. Christian Novetzke Columbia University At 02:51 PM 3/26/99 EST, you wrote: >In the english translation of the Jnaneshvari. (translated from the >Marathi by V.G. Pradhan and edited by H.M. Lambert) in chapter 10 >between Jnaneshwars verses 203 and 208 are inserted verses 22 and 23 of >the Bhagavad Gita (from Radhakrishnan's translation) but they are in >the reverse order that they appear in the Bhagavad Gita proper. This >makes them agree with Jnaneshwar's verse commentary as written in this >edition. > >Could someone possibly tell me. If verses 204 through 208 in this >translation agree with the Marathi original. And also in the Marathi >original are the sanskrit verses from the Bhagavad Gita usually inserted >and if so is it usual to reverse verses 22 and 23 in chapter 10. > >Thank You > >Harry Spier >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > From Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Fri Mar 26 20:13:47 1999 From: Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Toru Tomabechi) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 99 21:13:47 +0100 Subject: IABS Conference Reminder Message-ID: <161227047718.23782.18128656518831384058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, This message has been posted to both INDOLOGY and BUDDHA-L mailing lists. Sorry for incovenience, if you received multiple message. ---------- To those of you wishing to present a paper at the XIIth IABS Conference: The deadline (Apr. 15) for the paper abstract is approaching. If you send us your abstract by e-mail (To: iabs99.unil.ch), please put it in *PLAIN TEXT* and PLEASE DO NOT send any attachement file in a proprietary format, such as M$-Word, Nisus, etc. (all this in order to avoid potential compatibility problems; anyway, it is a bad thing to assume that everyone on the planet is under the control of the Dark Empire of Redmond). Details concerning the use of diacritical marks can be found in the First Circular available on our web-site at: http://www-orient.unil.ch As we will reformat the paper abstracts to make them fit to the conference booklet, you don't have to pre-format your abstract yourself. Thank you very much for your cooperation. Toru Tomabechi, Secretary of the Organizing Committee The XIIth IABS Conference University of Lausanne P.S. If you feel uneasy with tech-stuff and/or if you do not know what "plain text" means, simply send your abstract by snail-mail in a printed form. It is at least human-readable :-) From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Mar 26 17:14:53 1999 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 99 22:14:53 +0500 Subject: Indian onager Message-ID: <161227047711.23782.8119249088379217025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jules Bloch proposed intial g- in this form for Proto-Dravidian like *g(a)ard- which he said is preserved in Telugu as a g- form ga:.dida, and as g(a)ard-abha in Sanskrit. He said it was devoiced later in Ta. Ma. Ka., etc. (South Dravidian). The Parji, etc. forms (gadha-type) are borrowed from Mdn Indo-Aryan. I discussed this problem under intial voicing in my TVB. Bh.K. At 00:49 26/03/99 IST, you wrote: >Hi, >A nice picture is at: >http://www.deer.rr.ualberta.ca/library/taxonomy/onager.html >The early solid-wheeled chariot of Sumer is drawn by an onager. > >I would appreciate guidance on predicting the ancient form, say of ca. 3000 BC >in Rajasthan, of the related lexemes. CDIAL 4054 has gardabha (Skt.). DEDR >1364 has Parji gade, garad; Gondi ga_r.di; Kuwi ga_r.de; Te. ga_d.ida; Ta. >kar..utai > >Is the consonantal change k>g or g>k? > >Thanks. >Kalyanaraman > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. > > ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 (A.P.), India Telephone:40-7019665 E-mail: From Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Sat Mar 27 03:32:37 1999 From: Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Toru Tomabechi) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 04:32:37 +0100 Subject: Corr. IABS Conference Reminder Message-ID: <161227047729.23782.8862931175252364262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, Here's a correction to my previous post on the IABS Conference: E-mail address for sending the paper abstract is To: iabs99 at orient.unil.ch (I forgot to put "@orient" in my previous post) Sorry. Toru Tomabechi University of Lausanne From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Mar 27 02:15:46 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 07:45:46 +0530 Subject: Question on Jnaneshvari In-Reply-To: <19990326195135.21145.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047725.23782.5038969977866542576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:51 PM 3/26/99 -0500, you wrote: >In the english translation of the Jnaneshvari. (translated from the >Marathi by V.G. Pradhan and edited by H.M. Lambert) in chapter 10 >between Jnaneshwars verses 203 and 208 are inserted verses 22 and 23 of >the Bhagavad Gita (from Radhakrishnan's translation) but they are in >the reverse order that they appear in the Bhagavad Gita proper. This >makes them agree with Jnaneshwar's verse commentary as written in this >edition. > >Could someone possibly tell me. If verses 204 through 208 in this >translation agree with the Marathi original. And also in the Marathi >original are the sanskrit verses from the Bhagavad Gita usually inserted >and if so is it usual to reverse verses 22 and 23 in chapter 10. > >Thank You > >Harry Spier >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > March 27, 1999 Reply In V. K. Rajwade's edition of Jnaneshvari supposed to be linguistically the oldest, I find that (i) the order of the Sanskrit verses 22 and 23 is reversed when compared to the Sanskrit text tradition, and (ii) Jnaneshvara's Marathi commentary agrees with the reversed order. KSA From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Mar 27 02:24:36 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 07:54:36 +0530 Subject: What is the English equivalent of the ZAka tree? In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19990326174327.0097f078@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227047727.23782.13178243996046412846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:43 PM 3/26/99 -0500, you wrote: >What is the English equivalent of ZAka tree? Does it have any uses in ritual? >It is described in the BhAgavata PurANa in connection with a place called >ZAkadvIpa. > >Thank you for your help. > >Chris Beetle > Reply March 27, 99 ZAka is teak; and in this sense, the word agrees linguistically with its Marathi equivalent, sAg(a). Cp Sk kAka and Prakrit (also Hindi) kAga; Sk pustaka and Pk potthaga. KSA From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Mar 27 08:11:13 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 08:11:13 +0000 Subject: [Re: Indian onager] Message-ID: <161227047723.23782.15974689035671517151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > The neck in kannada is 'kattu' & in tamil, 'kazuttu'. > Are the words for 'neck' and 'onager' related? Thanks to Prof. Bh.Krishnamurthy for the guidance re. initial voicing: Proto-Dravidian *g(a)ard- preserved in Te. and Skt. The changes in forms of lexemes of semant. 'neck' appear to be almost identical. CDIAL 2680 has kan.t.ha (Skt.). DEDR 1366 cites: gan.t.lu (Ka.); gad.li (Gadba.Kuwi); also kattu (Ka.) Can these be related to DEDR 1996 Malt. qasru neck; xe_ser = neck, shoulders (Kurku)? Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Mar 27 09:38:42 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 09:38:42 +0000 Subject: Indian lexemes related to death Message-ID: <161227047731.23782.16588005145174947223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Would appreciate guidance on predicting possible ancient forms related to the following semant. in IA and Dravidian. These notes are in refce. to the funerary pottery (and images) reported recently by Profs. Kenoyer and Meadow from Harappa. mr.tyu = death (Skt.); smas'a_nam = crematorium (Skt.) DEDR 4680, 4760, 4777 and 4801: man.d.u = to burn (Te.); mr.ahpa (mr.aht-)destruction by fire (Kui); mo.t.- to put fuel on fire (Toda); ma_~d.u to be burnt (Te.); ma_sa_na_ to burn, burn a corpse; ma_r- to be charred (Gondi); mod- (mor-t-) locus of tribal activity, funeral place (Toda); mar-p dead (Toda) In this context, it may be of interest to note the association of a bull image with cremations in Bali; cf. among Balinese Hindus, there is an extraordinary ceremony called ngaben described, with colorful pictures,in the following URLs: http://www.indo.com/culture/cremation.html http://www.bali.go.id/ceremoni_eng.htm http://clearwater.nic.edu/socsci/jasylte/cremat1.htm http://museon.museon.nl/objextra.eng/ceremoni.html Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU Sat Mar 27 15:21:50 1999 From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 10:21:50 -0500 Subject: Question on Jnaneshvari Message-ID: <161227047741.23782.9508976582822123063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Original query by Harry Spier: >In the english translation of the Jnaneshvari. (translated from the >Marathi by V.G. Pradhan and edited by H.M. Lambert) in chapter 10 >between Jnaneshwars verses 203 and 208 are inserted verses 22 and 23 of >the Bhagavad Gita (from Radhakrishnan's translation) but they are in >the reverse order that they appear in the Bhagavad Gita proper. This >makes them agree with Jnaneshwar's verse commentary as written in this >edition. > >Could someone possibly tell me. If verses 204 through 208 in this >translation agree with the Marathi original. And also in the Marathi >original are the sanskrit verses from the Bhagavad Gita usually inserted >and if so is it usual to reverse verses 22 and 23 in chapter 10. "K. S. Arjunwadkar" wrote: March 27, 1999 Reply In V. K. Rajwade's edition of Jnaneshvari supposed to be linguistically the oldest, I find that (i) the order of the Sanskrit verses 22 and 23 is reversed when compared to the Sanskrit text tradition, and (ii) Jnaneshvara's Marathi commentary agrees with the reversed order. KSA >>> My reply>>> My copy - the so-called sAkhare-mahArAja edition (original from 1901) seems to be different in this aspect. The gItA verses are in proper order as well as the marAThI commentary is consistent with it. The j~nAneshvarI verses are numbered 223-227. This is considered to be one of the authentic traditional editions, although Rajwade - a historian as well, is said to have made extensive research and claimed to have corrected many errors from the traditional editions. As the history goes, his edition was not accepted by the "believers" and he was unhappy about that. The detailed story is interesting! As to the last questions of Harry spier: YES the marAThI commentary does include all the gItA verses in proper order interspersed throughout the text. There are occasional mistakes - presumably made by the copy-writers. I hope this answers all the questions. -- With best regards, Avinash Sathaye sohum at ms.uky.edu Web Page: www.ms.uky.edu/~sohum From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Mar 27 11:33:32 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 11:33:32 +0000 Subject: Women in Afghanistan [end of thread] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047738.23782.14196645049456743971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Artur Karp wrote: > I would like to thank Dr Dominik Wujastyk for his patience and ask him to > formally close the present thread. Like Karp and Thrasher, I was staggered by Lusthaus's opinions. I do indeed hereby formally end this thread, which is a very, very important topic, but has no place in a forum concerned with Classical Indian Studies. I use my prerogative as founder of this list to end the thread with a parting reference to a subtle and sensitive book about the Polish Jews: Eva Hoffman, Shtetl: the history of a small town and an extinguished world (London, 1998, isbn 0-436-20482-7). It contains a nuanced account of a very difficult part of European history. From the blurb: "... Hoffman reconstructs the lost wold of East European Jewry up until its final days. She explores the rich culture and institutions of Polish Jews, and looks at the forms of multicultural coexistence during several centuries, the shades of prejudice and tolerance, and the phases of conflict and comity. By probing the deep ambivalence that coloured relations between Poles and Jews on the eve of World War II, Shtetl throws new light on motives which influenced Christian villagers' decisions to rescue or betray their Jewish neighbours when the Nazis invaded." --- Dominik Wujastyk http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sat Mar 27 09:10:52 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 12:10:52 +0300 Subject: Indian lexemes related to death Message-ID: <161227047734.23782.15672685535107294061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the etymology of zmazAna and related words see: H.W.Bailey. A problem of the Indo-Iranian vocabulary. - "Rocznik Orientalistyczny", vol. 21 (1957), pp. 66-69. By the way, the earliest meaning of the word was 'a tomb under a barrow' (see its description in the Zatapatha BrAhmaNa XIII.8.1-2). Constructions similiar in many respects to the archaic Indian zmazAna and dated by late IV-early III millenium BC have been found in Northern Caucausus (my paper in: South Asian Archaeology 1993, Helsinki 1994, particularly p. 778). As for the Gondi word *ma_sa_na - the first thing to do, I think, would be to check the possibility of an early borrowing from IA. There are many such possible early borrowings in Non-Aryan languages of India: e.g. if Billavas, a caste of toddy-drawers in South Canara, call their conical grave-mounds *dhUpe* - (Thurston, Castes and Tribes.., vol. I, p. 249) I think it would be reasonable to think first of all of IA *stUpa*, would not it? Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sat Mar 27 10:14:15 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 13:14:15 +0300 Subject: bhakti- etc. Message-ID: <161227047736.23782.8764090948653908718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I would be most grateful for references to different etymologies of the words: *bhagavat*, *bhakti*, *bhakta* (even to those that you think are wrong) and to different ideas on the history of their semantics. Thanks in advance, Yaroslav Vassilkov From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 27 21:00:08 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 16:00:08 -0500 Subject: bhakti- etc. Message-ID: <161227047749.23782.16890193589332428725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > >Dear colleagues, >I would be most grateful for references to different etymologies of the words: >*bhagavat*, *bhakti*, *bhakta* (even to those that you think are wrong) and to >different ideas on the history of their semantics. > Thanks in advance, > Yaroslav Vassilkov SwAmI tyAgIzAnanda in "nArada bhakti sUtras" from Sri Ramakrishna Math" has a section on the etymology of 'bhagavAn' which I think may be relevant and from which I quote (using Harvard-Kyoto convention): pages 166 - 168 "Bhaga in early vedic literature meant 'dispenser', patron, or gracious lord as applied to the Gods, especially savitR. As a qualifying word it was used to denote dignity, beauty, majesty, or excellence. In Rgv. I. 164. 40; VII. 41. 4; X. 60. 12; and Athar. II. 10. 2; V. 31. 11, the word Bhagavat is used in the sense 'blissful'. atho vayam baghavantaH syAmaH means 'may we be the repositories of good qualities'. In the purAnas the word came to denote the Supreme Divine Reality and as such a synonym of brahman and paramAtman -- vadanti tat tattvavidaH tatvaM yad jnAna mavyayaM | brahmeti pramAtmeti bhagavAniti zabdyate -- bhAg. I. 2. 11. That the word bhagavAn is the term by which brahman or paramAtman is referred to by devotees for the sake of worship is clear from Vishnu purAna VI. 5 -66-79: (Swamiji quotes the sanskrit here followed by the english from which I quote) "That which is imperceptible, undecaying, inconceivable, unborn, inexhaustible, indestructible; which has neither form, nor hands, nor feet, which is almighty, omnipresent, eternal; the cause of all things and without cause, permeating all, itself unpenetrated, and from which all things proceed, that is the object which the wise behold, that is Brahman, that is the Supreme State, that is the thing spoken of by the Vedas, the infinitely subtle, supreme condition of viSNu. That Essence of the Supreme is defined by the term Bhagavat; the word Bhagavat is the denotation of that primeval and eternal God; and he who fully understands the meaning of that expression is possessed of holy wisdom, the sum and substance of the three vedas. The word Bhagavat is a convenient form to be used in the adoration of that Supreme Being, to twhom no term is applicable; and therefore bhagavat expresses that Supreme Spirit which is individual, almighty, and the cause of causes of all things. The syllable 'bha' implies the cherisher and supporter of the universe. By 'ga' is understood the leader, impeller, or creator. The dissyllabic 'bhaga' indicates the six properties -- dominion, might, glory, splendour, wisdom and dispassion. The purport of the syllable 'va' is that elemental Spirit in which all beings exist, and which exists in all beings. And thus this great word 'bhagAvan' is the name of 'vAsudeva', who is one with the Supreme Brahman, and of no one else. This word therefore, which is the general denomination of an adorable object, is not used in reference to the supreme in a general signification, but a special one. When applied to any other thing or person it is used in its customary or general import. In the latter case it may purport one who knows the origin and end and revolutions of beings and what is wisdom and what is ignorance. In the former it denotes wisdom, energy, power, domination, might, glory, without end and without defect." Yours sincerely Harry Spier Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Sat Mar 27 09:36:08 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 17:36:08 +0800 Subject: news: Cholas took care to copy old inscriptions when renovating t emples In-Reply-To: <9130EFB0684CD211869E0020484016B512C328@satlmsgusr07.delta- air.com> Message-ID: <161227047739.23782.9657982090331010134.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Do you ahve Anjal 2.03. installed? What fonts are you using. Could not read the poems that you had written inthe forumhub. I think I saw your posting once in Tamil.net. Are still there? Regards Jayabarathi At 04:04 PM 2/26/99 -0500, you wrote: >From the Hindu On Line: >---------------- > Resurrecting inscriptions > > > Date: 27-02-1999 :: Pg: 05 :: Col: a > > By Our Special Correspondent TIRUCHI, Feb. 26. > > The care taken by the Chola kings during renovation > of temples and how scrupulously they copied the > inscriptions on the dilapidated portions on the newly > constructed portions after renovation have come to > light, the discovery of old and new inscriptions on > the walls of the Perumal temple in Natham village, > near Pullambadi, about 40 km from here. >----------------- >For a complete report see: >http://www.webpage.com/hindu/daily/990227/04/04272239.htm > From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Sat Mar 27 18:34:07 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 19:34:07 +0100 Subject: bhakti- etc. Message-ID: <161227047747.23782.10250962531767986295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Yaroslav, Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya has a well argued out suggestion: the root of the concept would be bhaga, share, i.e. sharing in the tribe's affairs, first of all participating in the redistribution system. Unfortunately I do not have his book (Lokayata. A Study in Ancient Indian Materialism, New Delhi, ca. 1957) at hand, so I cannot be more specific. As he was [or is? I really don't know] an enthusiastic communist, most probably his work has been translated into Russian. Yours, Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa assistant professor of metaphysics E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu >I would be most grateful for references to different etymologies of the words: >*bhagavat*, *bhakti*, *bhakta* (even to those that you think are wrong) and to >different ideas on the history of their semantics. > Yaroslav Vassilkov From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Mar 27 14:38:56 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 20:08:56 +0530 Subject: bhakti- etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047756.23782.652264329186052946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:14 PM 3/27/99 +0300, you wrote: >Dear colleagues, >I would be most grateful for references to different etymologies of the words: >*bhagavat*, *bhakti*, *bhakta* (even to those that you think are wrong) and to >different ideas on the history of their semantics. > Thanks in advance, > Yaroslav Vassilkov > Reply March 27,99 bhAgavata < bhagavat = bhaga + vat = one possessed of 'fortune'. zaNkara in his commentary on the Bhagavad-gItA (3.37) quotes a verse enlisting six attributes together called 'bhaga'. The word bhagavat usually refers to God, and, in a secondary sense, to any revered person. Resulting meaning: worshipful, revered. bhAgavata(bhagavat + the secondary suff. a) refers to a devotee of God. bhakti (devotion) and bhakta (devotee) come from the root 'bhaj' to worship -- the first ending in the suffix 'ti' and the second in 'ta' (past part. suff.). bhaga also comes from the same root with the suffix 'a', changing j to g. (Cp. tyAga < tyaj) KSA From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Mar 27 21:20:39 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 21:20:39 +0000 Subject: Indian lexemes related to death Message-ID: <161227047743.23782.1213065265503076620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Yaroslav V. Vassilkov" wrote: > As for the Gondi word *ma_sa_na - the first thing to do, I think, would be to> check the possibility of an early borrowing from IA. There are many such> possible early borrowings in Non-Aryan languages of India: e.g. if Billavas,> a caste of toddy-drawers in South Canara, call their conical grave-mounds> *dhUpe* - (Thurston, Castes and Tribes.., vol. I, p. 249) I think it would be> reasonable to think first of all of IA *stUpa*, would not it?> Cologne Dictionary has this entry: zmazAna n. (accord. to Kir. iii , 5 for %{zmazayana} above ; but prob. for %{azma-zayana}) an elevated place for burning dead bodies , crematorium , cemetery or burial-place for the bones of cremated corpses AV. &c. &c. ; an oblation to deceased ancestors (=%{pitR-medha} see above) Pa1rGr2. Ka1tyS3r. Sch. ; = %{brahma-randhra}. Another Skt. phrase is: s'ava s'ayana Pali dictionary has: maccu = death Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sun Mar 28 02:34:43 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu_=24kepti=EF=BF=BD?=) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 21:34:43 -0500 Subject: Indian Guru of Nazis Message-ID: <161227047752.23782.10735366368815277179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The spy who loved Hitler Shrabani Basu She wore thin white cotton saris and lived in a shabby house in Delhi, surrounded by exotic birds and cats. Could this be the same person who went by the name of Savitri Devi and called Hitler her idol? And how does one explain her animal rights activism when she is supposed to have admired the Nazis who were sentenced during the Nuremberg Trials for the mass murder of Jews? A recently released biography, Hitler's Priestess: Savitri Devi, the Hindu-Aryan Myth and Neo Nazism by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, reveals how the lady adopted India as her home. Till her death in 1982, she used this base to propagate a Neo-Nazi cult and keep the torch of Nazism burning in Europe and the USA. She was even hailed as 'Hitler's guru' by neo-Nazi publishers, Samisdat. In 1982, a tape recording of Savitri Devi's words from her house in India was released to galvanize the neo-Nazi movement in Europe and the world. She was born Maximiani Portas, of English and Greek parents in Lyons in 1905. She became a Greek national in 1928 as she took to Hellenism, disillusioned with Christianity. It was the swastikasigns on the palace of Athens, built by 19th century German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann, that stirred Maximiani's first feelings for the Aryan race. She left for India in 1932 to search for the roots of the Aryan civilization. She regarded Hinduism as the only living Aryan heritage in the modern world and was convinced that only Hinduism could take on and oppose the Judaeo-Christian heritage. Soon, she adopted the name Savitri Devi which would make her famous in neo-Nazi circles. India fascinated her -- she noted now even a street-side vendor would discuss the Mahabharat in the morning. She had great admiration for the Brahmins, who she saw as a pure race. Her championing of Aryan-Nazi causes and Hinduism led to her entering the political scenario in India in between the wars. By the late 1930s, she was involved with Hindu nationalist movements like the Hindu Mahasabha and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh - then growing rapidly to counter Muslim ascendancy. In early 1937, Savitri Devi met Srimat Swami Satyanand, president of the Hindu Mission in Calcutta, and offered her service to the mission. She told Swami Satyanand that India was the only country that honoured Aryan Gods and could stop the influence of the Jews. Satyanand, clearly impressed, told her that Hitler, of who Savitri was a devout follower, was an avatar of Vishnu -- a force that would preserve the cosmic order. In 1939, she published A Warning to Hindus under the auspices of the Hindu Mission. In the book, she scorned the Congress for its secular policies and said there was no India but a Hindu one and warned the Hindus not to let the Muslims overwhelm them. During the war, the Hindu Mahasabha adopted a strong pro-German position, drawing a link between the Aryan cult of Nazism and Hindu nationalism. In 1939 Savitri Devi met a Bengali Brahmin, Asit Krishna Mukherjee, a publisher with pro-German sympathies, who made a strong impression on her. He edited The New Mercury, a Nazi mouthpiece funded by the German consulate in Calcutta. In 1940 she married Mukherjee in a Hindu ceremony in Calcutta. The couple started living at 1 Wellesley St. Both worked clandestinely for the Axis powers in Calcutta and though Mukherjee's publication was banned during the war, he started publishing another magazine called The Eastern Economist with Japanese help. Savitri Devi claimed Mukherjee knew Subhas Chandra Bose well and it was through their contacts in the Japanese legation that Bose got in touch with the Japanese authorities with whom he collaborated between 1943 and 1945. Savitri Devi and her husband also played a small part in military espionage activities by entertaining British and American servicemen stationed in Calcutta and shrewdly gathering information that they let slip. The Mukherjees passed their information to four Indians who regularly crossed the Burmese frontier every fortnight to reach Japanese intelligence officials. The leads apparently resulted in several top Allied aerodromes in Burma being blown up and some Allied units being encircled. The defeat of Germany in the Second World War came as a shattering blow to Savitri Devi who vowed to travel to Europe again and do what she could to uphold the Nazi morale. In November 1945 she left India to begin her career as a die-hard neo-Nazi. Savitri Devi travelled to Germany where she was arrested for distributing pro-Nazi pamphlets. She had only admiration for the brutal Nazis she met in prison, saying they were just doing their chosen job. She wrote 'Heil Hitler' on the prison walls as an act of defiance. She is even supposed to have enjoyed her term in the women's prison in Westphalia where she was staying with hardened Nazi criminals -- the very people who took part in the euthanasia programme and had been wardens of concentration camps. Savitri did not believe in the Holocaust and felt it was all Allied propaganda. Concentration camps, she said, were meant for the detention of enemies of Nazism. After her release she settled in France and then returned to Germany to make a pilgrimage of sites associated with Hitler. At each place she met old Nazi sympathizers and they all gave the Nazi salute together. She travelled extensively in France, Sweden and Germany, making contacts everywhere. Her travels reconfirmed her belief that Hitler was the Western incarnation of Lord Ram and Krishna and had come to save the world. Gradually, Savitri Devi became active among neo-Nazis, meeting the British neo-Nazi Oswald Moseley and other European fascists. She also joined forces with the British fascist party, the National Socialists. She began to write theories denying the Holocaust and was patronized by Ernst Zundel, the German revisionist publisher. In 1958, Savitri published her famous book dedicated to Aryan supremacy, The Lightning and The Sun. In 1960, she was travelling in Spain and France and working actively in the neo-Nazi International called World Union of National Socialists. In 1971, she returned to India and was staying in the guest rooms of the Hindu Mahasabha office in Delhi. It is here that she completed her autobiography which has her final statement on Aryan racist religion. In 1977, after her husband's death, Savitri Devi continued to correspond with neo-Nazis in Europe and America. She died in 1982 in London, during a brief stopover before going on a lecture tour to some seven or eight cities in the USA. She was 77 years old. Her ashes were taken to the US where they were placed in the Nazi hall of honour at Arlington. A picture of Savitri Devi was draped with a funeral sash said to have belonged to Adolf Hitler. It was the end of a life dedicated to the further and, perhaps, also of the belief that Hitler was an incarnation of Lord Vishnu who had come to deliver the world. Kind courtesy: Sunday magazine and Rediff From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sun Mar 28 02:39:21 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu_=24kepti=EF=BF=BD?=) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 21:39:21 -0500 Subject: Indian Guru of Nazis? Message-ID: <161227047754.23782.13644328952714821012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Have your heard this story? The spy who loved Hitler Shrabani Basu She wore thin white cotton saris and lived in a shabby house in Delhi, surrounded by exotic birds and cats. Could this be the same person who went by the name of Savitri Devi and called Hitler her idol? And how does one explain her animal rights activism when she is supposed to have admired the Nazis who were sentenced during the Nuremberg Trials for the mass murder of Jews? A recently released biography, Hitler's Priestess: Savitri Devi, the Hindu-Aryan Myth and Neo Nazism by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, reveals how the lady adopted India as her home. Till her death in 1982, she used this base to propagate a Neo-Nazi cult and keep the torch of Nazism burning in Europe and the USA. She was even hailed as 'Hitler's guru' by neo-Nazi publishers, Samisdat. In 1982, a tape recording of Savitri Devi's words from her house in India was released to galvanize the neo-Nazi movement in Europe and the world. She was born Maximiani Portas, of English and Greek parents in Lyons in 1905. She became a Greek national in 1928 as she took to Hellenism, disillusioned with Christianity. It was the swastikasigns on the palace of Athens, built by 19th century German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann, that stirred Maximiani's first feelings for the Aryan race. She left for India in 1932 to search for the roots of the Aryan civilization. She regarded Hinduism as the only living Aryan heritage in the modern world and was convinced that only Hinduism could take on and oppose the Judaeo-Christian heritage. Soon, she adopted the name Savitri Devi which would make her famous in neo-Nazi circles. India fascinated her -- she noted now even a street-side vendor would discuss the Mahabharat in the morning. She had great admiration for the Brahmins, who she saw as a pure race. Her championing of Aryan-Nazi causes and Hinduism led to her entering the political scenario in India in between the wars. By the late 1930s, she was involved with Hindu nationalist movements like the Hindu Mahasabha and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh - then growing rapidly to counter Muslim ascendancy. In early 1937, Savitri Devi met Srimat Swami Satyanand, president of the Hindu Mission in Calcutta, and offered her service to the mission. She told Swami Satyanand that India was the only country that honoured Aryan Gods and could stop the influence of the Jews. Satyanand, clearly impressed, told her that Hitler, of who Savitri was a devout follower, was an avatar of Vishnu -- a force that would preserve the cosmic order. In 1939, she published A Warning to Hindus under the auspices of the Hindu Mission. In the book, she scorned the Congress for its secular policies and said there was no India but a Hindu one and warned the Hindus not to let the Muslims overwhelm them. During the war, the Hindu Mahasabha adopted a strong pro-German position, drawing a link between the Aryan cult of Nazism and Hindu nationalism. In 1939 Savitri Devi met a Bengali Brahmin, Asit Krishna Mukherjee, a publisher with pro-German sympathies, who made a strong impression on her. He edited The New Mercury, a Nazi mouthpiece funded by the German consulate in Calcutta. In 1940 she married Mukherjee in a Hindu ceremony in Calcutta. The couple started living at 1 Wellesley St. Both worked clandestinely for the Axis powers in Calcutta and though Mukherjee's publication was banned during the war, he started publishing another magazine called The Eastern Economist with Japanese help. Savitri Devi claimed Mukherjee knew Subhas Chandra Bose well and it was through their contacts in the Japanese legation that Bose got in touch with the Japanese authorities with whom he collaborated between 1943 and 1945. Savitri Devi and her husband also played a small part in military espionage activities by entertaining British and American servicemen stationed in Calcutta and shrewdly gathering information that they let slip. The Mukherjees passed their information to four Indians who regularly crossed the Burmese frontier every fortnight to reach Japanese intelligence officials. The leads apparently resulted in several top Allied aerodromes in Burma being blown up and some Allied units being encircled. The defeat of Germany in the Second World War came as a shattering blow to Savitri Devi who vowed to travel to Europe again and do what she could to uphold the Nazi morale. In November 1945 she left India to begin her career as a die-hard neo-Nazi. Savitri Devi travelled to Germany where she was arrested for distributing pro-Nazi pamphlets. She had only admiration for the brutal Nazis she met in prison, saying they were just doing their chosen job. She wrote 'Heil Hitler' on the prison walls as an act of defiance. She is even supposed to have enjoyed her term in the women's prison in Westphalia where she was staying with hardened Nazi criminals -- the very people who took part in the euthanasia programme and had been wardens of concentration camps. Savitri did not believe in the Holocaust and felt it was all Allied propaganda. Concentration camps, she said, were meant for the detention of enemies of Nazism. After her release she settled in France and then returned to Germany to make a pilgrimage of sites associated with Hitler. At each place she met old Nazi sympathizers and they all gave the Nazi salute together. She travelled extensively in France, Sweden and Germany, making contacts everywhere. Her travels reconfirmed her belief that Hitler was the Western incarnation of Lord Ram and Krishna and had come to save the world. Gradually, Savitri Devi became active among neo-Nazis, meeting the British neo-Nazi Oswald Moseley and other European fascists. She also joined forces with the British fascist party, the National Socialists. She began to write theories denying the Holocaust and was patronized by Ernst Zundel, the German revisionist publisher. In 1958, Savitri published her famous book dedicated to Aryan supremacy, The Lightning and The Sun. In 1960, she was travelling in Spain and France and working actively in the neo-Nazi International called World Union of National Socialists. In 1971, she returned to India and was staying in the guest rooms of the Hindu Mahasabha office in Delhi. It is here that she completed her autobiography which has her final statement on Aryan racist religion. In 1977, after her husband's death, Savitri Devi continued to correspond with neo-Nazis in Europe and America. She died in 1982 in London, during a brief stopover before going on a lecture tour to some seven or eight cities in the USA. She was 77 years old. Her ashes were taken to the US where they were placed in the Nazi hall of honour at Arlington. A picture of Savitri Devi was draped with a funeral sash said to have belonged to Adolf Hitler. It was the end of a life dedicated to the further and, perhaps, also of the belief that Hitler was an incarnation of Lord Vishnu who had come to deliver the world. Kind courtesy: Sunday magazine and Rediff From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Mar 28 00:17:57 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 99 00:17:57 +0000 Subject: Ancient Gypsy language Message-ID: <161227047745.23782.13053472599074457557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Request further leads on the subject. pos'a name of the gypsies of Asia Minor among Armenians and Turks; bos'a name of the gypsies of Asia Minor among Georgians (Gypsy); po_sa man (Pali); piris male (OMd.); firi male (CDIAL 14696). Any possible links with purus.a (Skt.)? Cologne dictionary: roma 2 m. the city Rome Cat. (cf. %{bRhad-roma} and next) ; pl. N. of a people VP Is the IA domb- relatable to tr.omba = priest (Kuwi)? Some notes are at: http://www.centraleurope.com/ceo/travel/features/ss962801.html "Polish Museum Explores Life and History of Gypsies by Natasha and Charles Recknagel; To visit the Ethnographic Museum, take a bus or train to Tarnow, about 70 kilometers east of Krakow. "Few visitors to Eastern Europe are aware that this region is home to millions of people who migrated here from India 1,000 years ago and still speak a language closely related to Hindi and Urdu. These millions are the Gypsies, Europe's largest and most invisible minority. There are some 8 million Gypsies spread across the continent, and most live in Eastern Europe." Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Mar 28 06:56:36 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 99 06:56:36 +0000 Subject: Indian lexemes related to death Message-ID: <161227047751.23782.6342182121931198653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Yaroslav V. Vassilkov" wrote: > For the etymology of zmazAna and related words see: H.W.Bailey. A problem of > the Indo-Iranian vocabulary. - "Rocznik Orientalistyczny", vol. 21 (1957), > pp. 66-69. By the way, the earliest meaning of the word was 'a tomb under > a barrow' (see its description in the Zatapatha BrAhmaNa XIII.8.1-2). Dr. Yaroslav, thanks a lot for the guidance. If smas'a_na was a compound (asma s'ayana or stone bed), and in relation to *stUpa (IA/IE?), the following URL may provide some leads and vedic citations: http://pears2.lib.ohio-state.edu/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/bar1.htm Stuupa, and Tomb By B. M. Barua The Indian Historical Quarterly vol 2:1, 1926.03, p. 16-27 "There are clear evidences showing that certain sections of the Aryan community began to make solid brick structures instead of heaps of earth, or of stones covered with earth (White Yajurveda, xxxv. 15), and that the urn (asthikumbha), containing the bones and ashes and covered by a lid, came to be buried after the dead body had been burnt(As'valaayana G.rhya-Suutra, IV. 5; Saaya.na on the .Rg-Veda hymn (X, 18)." A remarkable find is reported by Prof. Bisht at Dholavira, a brick masonry tumulus or circular grave (?)with TEN radial lines of mud-bricks, like spokes of a wheel...(http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/peacock.html) Could there be any connection with 'tumba' as the navel of a wheel? Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From KMalkawi at AOL.COM Sun Mar 28 13:39:49 1999 From: KMalkawi at AOL.COM (Katharina Malkawi) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 99 08:39:49 -0500 Subject: again gujarati Message-ID: <161227047758.23782.3960940787100460164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Again I ask for help concerning my work about a modern Gujarati drama. I am searching for people knowing or having studied the language. Furthermore I plan to work about the drama, concerning influences by Indian drama tradition aswell as european influence. Is there anybody out there having worked about a drama in any modern Indian language and being able to give me some requests (literature etc.). Most gratefully K. Malkawi From ZHe at UH.EDU Sun Mar 28 14:45:58 1999 From: ZHe at UH.EDU (Zesheng He) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 99 08:45:58 -0600 Subject: Indian Guru of Nazis? Message-ID: <161227047760.23782.1829003358496778127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is Savitri Devi another Blavatsky? ("The secret doctrine"). With reference to C. G. Jung, a Harvard professor's book, The Aryan Christ, The secret life of Carl Jung by Richard Noll (Random house, 1997) is a useful read for Indologists. Does anybody know of folks/works working on the European appropriation of theAryan racist ideal in 19th century and the employment of the Aryan ideal and Sanskrit by Nazi-like politicians later. John From sbaldwin at EXECPC.COM Sun Mar 28 22:04:04 1999 From: sbaldwin at EXECPC.COM (Shauna Singh Baldwin) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 99 16:04:04 -0600 Subject: Qs re Funds Movement 1947 Message-ID: <161227047764.23782.1633358704141383470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology List members: 1. I need to check on money transfers before, during and after the 1947 partition of India. Is it true that many in the govt, in high places, managed to get money out of the area that became Pakistan and into India by wire transfers using British-owned banks? Any citations that would corroborate this or describe the movements of capital within the country during the few months before and after partition? 2. If Britain owed India 1.3 billion pounds at the end of WWII, (Sugata Bose and Ayesha Jalal, Modern South Asia pg 159) was it ever repaid?With interest? Many thanks in advance for your assistance. Shauna Singh Baldwin What the Body Remembers ( Knopf Canada; Transworld UK; Nan Talese/Doubleday USA; Seuil France, Bertelsmann GMBH, Seuil France, Mondodori Editore, Italy. Sept 99) English Lessons and Other Stories (Goose Lane, Canada 1996; Harper Collins India, 1999) A Foreign Visitor's Survival Guide to America (John Muir Publications USA, 1992) From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Sun Mar 28 19:06:33 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 99 21:06:33 +0200 Subject: Indian Guru of Nazis? In-Reply-To: <01J9CVXD7XK28YNCAV@Jetson.UH.EDU> Message-ID: <161227047762.23782.17706348770312616149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hallo Zesheng Op zondag, 28-maa-99 schreef Zesheng He: ZH| Indologists. Does anybody know of folks/works working on the European ZH| appropriation of theAryan racist ideal in 19th century and the employment of ZH| the Aryan ideal and Sanskrit by Nazi-like politicians later. You may ask Herman de Tollenaere (Foundadion SIMPOS) lokabaal at dsl.nl and Wouter Hanegraaff wouterha at xs4all.nl Met vriendelijk groet -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Mon Mar 29 14:16:23 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 09:16:23 -0500 Subject: bhakti- etc. Message-ID: <161227047767.23782.11522740622601854993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Dear colleagues, *I would be most grateful for references to different etymologies of the words: **bhagavat*, *bhakti*, *bhakta* (even to those that you think are wrong) and to *different ideas on the history of their semantics. * Thanks in advance, * Yaroslav Vassilkov * In Tamil, the word 'patti' (often said to be related to skt bhakti) comes from 'paRRu' (attachment > love). The statement(Tamil) 'paRRuvatu patti, muRRuvatu mutti' (to be attached, in a supreme sense, is love of God; to reach fullness (also means to end) is liberation in the sense of ultimate). Tamil patti has become sanskrit Bhakti, apparently. Bhakti movements spread from Tamil Nadu to other parts of India starting from around 4-5th centuries in the current era. In Tamil, pakavan comes from the verb(Tamil) 'paku' meaning divide,split > dispense. Pakavan means dispenser exactly as several on this list have pointed out, but the root sense here is from tamil/dravidian 'paku' for pakavan. Regards /C.R.(Selva) Selvakumar From sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Mar 29 17:21:33 1999 From: sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Naseem Hines) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 09:21:33 -0800 Subject: bhakti- etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047769.23782.2228408822102328515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the root of the noun bhakta is 'bhaj' to divide and hence share or participate, partake. Bhakta is the one who shares or partakes or consumes the same emotion or food or nourishment which is shared by others. On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > Dear colleagues, > I would be most grateful for references to different etymologies of the words: > *bhagavat*, *bhakti*, *bhakta* (even to those that you think are wrong) and to > different ideas on the history of their semantics. > Thanks in advance, > Yaroslav Vassilkov > From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Mar 29 17:31:48 1999 From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 12:31:48 -0500 Subject: bhakti- etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047771.23782.17375087335174042317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav, If you haven't already checked this, the first few pages of Dhavamony's _Love of God_ might satisfy what you are looking for. It was published by The Claredon Press, Oxford in 1971. This is just the tip of the Bhakti Iceberg. Christian At 09:21 AM 3/29/99 -0800, you wrote: >I think the root of the noun bhakta is 'bhaj' to divide and hence share or >participate, partake. Bhakta is the one who shares or partakes or consumes >the same emotion or food or nourishment which is shared by others. > >On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> I would be most grateful for references to different etymologies of the words: >> *bhagavat*, *bhakti*, *bhakta* (even to those that you think are wrong) and to >> different ideas on the history of their semantics. >> Thanks in advance, >> Yaroslav Vassilkov >> > > From jpstephen at HOME.COM Mon Mar 29 18:06:05 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 13:06:05 -0500 Subject: Ancient Gypsy language Message-ID: <161227047773.23782.3264373091927251758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I wonder if the gypsies of Europe have anything in common with the gypsies of today's India. The gypsies of today's India still travel around in tents from town to town entertaining people through gymnastics, singing, etc. Sujatha From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 29 12:15:01 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 13:15:01 +0100 Subject: [Admin] Re: Indian Guru of Nazis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047766.23782.9255959942099584118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Aditya, I must ask you in the strongest terms not to post long citations from the press to the INDOLOGY list. To make matters worse, you posted the recent citation twice (in error, I hope). Postings of this length are a burden to members who connect to INDOLOGY over low-bandwidth links: I think here especially of our friends and colleagues in India, where it is still common to pay a byte-charge for email. The maximum recommended length for a posting to the list is one screenful of text. Secondly, you put the INDOLOGY list at risk of prosecution for copyright infringement. It is a perfectly easy matter to summarize such an item in a short paragraph, and give INDOLOGY members a reference if they wish to read more. You could even put the piece on your own web server, and simply give INDOLOGY mebers the URL. Finally, the subject matter of your posting is not Classical India, so although it may be interesting to several people, it does not fall within the scope of the INDOLOGY list. I'm afraid I shall have to consider cancelling your membership of the list if this happens again. The same goes for everyone, of course. Yours, Dominik Wujastyk Founder and list manager, INDOLOGY list. From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Tue Mar 30 00:09:59 1999 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 16:09:59 -0800 Subject: Correct gypsy link In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047778.23782.1732246037124429570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephens writes: > Sorry folks. Here's the correct link > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm Indeed that information was fascinating. Is the language of the Rromani people still similar to any language spoken in India today? ~sumedh From jpstephen at HOME.COM Mon Mar 29 23:35:25 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 18:35:25 -0500 Subject: Gypsies Message-ID: <161227047775.23782.10954561444096652113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For anyone interested in gypsy culture, here's an informative/interesting link http://www.eeadopt.org/home/heritage/romani/index.html Sujatha From jpstephen at HOME.COM Mon Mar 29 23:37:19 1999 From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (Stephens) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 18:37:19 -0500 Subject: Correct gypsy link Message-ID: <161227047777.23782.2758110499165104380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry folks. Here's the correct link http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm Sujatha From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Mar 30 05:26:49 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 99 05:26:49 +0000 Subject: Correct gypsy link Message-ID: <161227047781.23782.14680661443587629443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sumedh Mungee wrote: > Stephens writes: > > Sorry folks. Here's the correct link > > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm> > Indeed that information was fascinating. Is the language of the > Rromani people still similar to any language spoken in India today? > > ~sumedh Comparative Dictionary of Indo-Aryan Languages (CDIAL) of R.L.Turner has hundreds of Gypsy (Romani) words which are cognate with many Indian languages. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 30 14:04:55 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 99 06:04:55 -0800 Subject: PDr consonantal change Message-ID: <161227047784.23782.15628704764483693848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kamil V. Zvelebil, Dravidian Linguistics today, J. of Inst. of Asian studies (Madras), 1984, p. 38 "Whereas indeed Proto-Dravidian PHONOLOGY may be very much like (Old) Tamil, in morphology and syntax, Tamil and South Dravidian had their far-reaching innovations". As far as PDr. phonology, Zvelebil says Tamil has retained PDr. features. Elsewhere, he shows the Sanskrit term, 'dravida' originates from 'tamiz'. In his book, Dravidian Linguistics, an introduction (1990, Pondicherry), does he talk a few words about the consonantal change k>g, t>d, p>b etc.,? I don't have KZ's book on hand. Thanks for any quotation from this book or from any of his papers on Dravidian phonology. V. Iyer -------------------------------------------------------------- >I would appreciate guidance on predicting the ancient form, say >of ca. 3000 BC in Rajasthan, of the related lexemes. CDIAL 4054 has > gardabha (Skt.). DEDR 1364 has Parji gade, garad; Gondi ga_r.di; > Kuwi ga_r.de; Te. ga_d.ida; Ta. kar..utai. > Is the consonantal change k>g or g>k? The change is from 'k' to 'g'. The other way as in the Telugu voicing is secondary and much later. Bh. Krishnamurthy in his Telugu verbal bases, p. 24, "Caldwell's assumption that there were no initial voiced plosives in PDr.as reflected in Ta. and Ma. was contradicted by Jules Bloch on the basis of the history of a few words like ghOTaka horse and drAviDa name of a people, which, according to him, were originally native to Dravidian. This view rceived support from some quarters and contradiction from others. Burrow argued for Caldwell and analytically put forth evidence to show that voicing of initial stops appearing in some of the Dravidian languages, was only secondary and did not represent PDr." Jules Bloch wrote about drAvida as the original word predating the word "tamizh". Zvelebil has analyzed this problem and shows that drAvida is ultimately derived from the root word, "tamizh". Hence, the consonantal change is k > g. Sincerely, V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 30 14:13:45 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 99 06:13:45 -0800 Subject: PDr consonantal change Message-ID: <161227047786.23782.17325465645857345610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bh. Krishnamurthy in his Telugu verbabases, p. 24, "Caldwell's assumption that there were no initial voiced plosives in PDr.as reflected in Ta. and Ma. was contradicted by Jules Bloch on the basis of the history of a few words like ghOTaka horse and drAviDa name of a people, which, according to him, were originally native to Dravidian. This view rceived support from some quarters and contradiction from others. Burrow argued for Caldwell and analytically put forth evidence to show that voicing of initial stops appearing in some of the Dravidian languages, was only secondary and did not represent PDr." Where does T. Burrow write that voicing in some Dravidian languages does not represent PDr.? Thanks for the citation. V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yaap at XS4ALL.NL Tue Mar 30 13:04:41 1999 From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 99 14:04:41 +0100 Subject: Fw: Fw: Xuanzang studies [Xuan Zang later chapters?] Message-ID: <161227047782.23782.8735932697303336972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "The participants discussed different questions related to Xuanzang's biography...." -------- forwarded (forwarded) message ----------------- >------------------------------ >Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:52:01 EST >From: Joanna Kirkpatrick >Subject: Fw: H-ASIA: Xuanzang studies >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Forwarding this in case list members might like to read it. > >j Kirkpatrick >*************************************** > >H-ASIA >March 28, 1999 >********************************* >From: Evgueni Tortchinov >Subject: Xuanzang studies > >On March 22-24, 1999 I have participated in the Second International >Academic Conference on Xuanzang studies held in the town of Tongchuan >(Shaanxi province, not far from Xi'an); the place was chosen as located >near the Yuhuasi monastery where Xuanzang died (obtained his Nirvana) 1335 >years before. The participants of the conference were scholars and >interested people from China (PRC and Taiwan) -- overwhelming majority, >South Korea (mostly, Buddhist monks and nuns), Vietnam, Japan, Nepal and >Russia. The ambassadors of India and Nepal in China have also participated >in the conference as distinguished guests. The participants discussed >different questions related to Xuanzang's biography, his influence on the >Chinese culture, his translational activities, Yogacara Buddhist philosophy >represented by Xuanzang's school of Faxiang (Dharmalaksana), etc. >On March, 22nd the participants of this event took part in the ceremony of >the opening of the new museum of Xuanzang in the restored buildings of the >Yuhuasi Monastery. > >Evgueni Tortchinov >________________________________________ >TORTCHINOV Evgueni, Ph.D., D.Sc., Professor, >Department of Oriental Philosophy and Cultural Studies, Chair >**************************************************************** >Office: >St. Petersburg State University >Faculty of Philosophy >Department of Oriental Philosophy and Cultural Studies >Mendeleyevskaya liniya, 5 >St. Petersburg 199034, Russia > >e-mail: blade at comset.net >tel/fax: (7)(812)526-29-47 >http://www.members.tripod.com/~etor_best/ie4.html > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 31 01:41:54 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 99 17:41:54 -0800 Subject: bhakti- etc. Message-ID: <161227047788.23782.13487522899796548552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Naseem Hines wrote: >I think the root of the noun bhakta is 'bhaj' to divide and hence >share or participate, partake. Bhakta is the one who shares or >partakes or consumes the same emotion or food or nourishment which >is shared by others. Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: >Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya has a well argued out suggestion: the >root of the concept would be bhaga, share, i.e. sharing in the >tribe's affairs, first of all participating in the redistribution >system. >?From Online Tamil Lexicon (Cologne), paku = 1. to distribute, apportion, allot; 2. to classify; 3. to explain analytically; 4. to give; 5. to divide, cut into pieces; vaku = 1. to separate; to divide 2. to apportion; to distribute; 3. to classify; to allot under different heads; 4. to divide Are the bhakti's root words in Sanskrit, 'bhaga' & 'bhaj' related to the Tamil words 'paku' and 'vaku'?? All of them have the same meaning. Does 'bhaga' have cognates with Old Iranian and/or IE? -------------------------------- The first use of 'bhatti' occurs in a Buddhist text. Har Dayal, Bodhisattva doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit literature, p. 32, "In fact, the very word bhakti, as a technical religious term, occurs for the first time in Indian literature in a Buddhist treatise and not in a Hindu scripture. The TheragAthA speaks of bhatti: so bhattimA nAma ca hoti paNDitO ~natvA ca dhammesu visesi assa (p. 41, lines 1-2). This anthology contains verses that go back to the earliest period of the history of Buddhism, and its final redaction took place in the middle of the third century B.C." Regards, N. Ganesan Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Mar 31 07:54:43 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 02:54:43 -0500 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227047791.23782.9007825943947104918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kalidasa in his Raghuvamsa calls the capital of the Pandya kings of Tamil region as "uraga". Kalidasa's use of this name for Madurai is very significant. The name uraga is based on the name Alavay found to be attested for the first time in the post-Classical Tamil text, tEvAram, of 7th century AD. The Tamil Lexicon explains the name AlavAy as " 1. serpent, as having poison in its mouth; 2. Madura, as encircled by a coiled serpent which brought its mouth and tail together to indicate the boundaries of the city". This is apparently based on interpreting AlavAy as a compound of Alam and vAy, where Ta. Alam < Skt. "Ala", the poison, and Ta. "vAy" means mouth. But the indication for the presence of this local snake mythology regarding Madurai is given by Kalidasa much earlier than any Tamil text! This demonstrates the intimate scholarly intercourse that must have existed between the Sanskritists of the Tamil region and the Aryavarta. This also reveals how Tamil Sanskritists have acted as intermediaries who transmitted Tamil cultural information to Sanskritists of the north. Moreover, the name uraga also shows the Sanskritic interpretation given to Tamil concepts in the creation of Tamil temple myths as early as the time of Kalidasa. They have succeeded so well even modern scholars who studied the Madurai mythology seem to be unaware of the direct Dravidian etymology for the name AlavAy. Alavay is a compound made up of Alam and vAy where Ta. Alam means banyan tree and Ta. vAy should be interpreted as "place". Thus AlavAy means "the banyan tree place" in much the same way "alaivAy" (aka.266.20) refers to "place of waves". Originally it seems to have meant only a location inside Madurai and not the whole of Madurai. What is the significance of the banyan tree place? That is where dakSiNAmUrti is located along with his disciples. The importance of dakSiNAmUrti cult in the mythology/history of Madurai, Potiyil, Agastya, and Tamil grammatical, literary, and aesthetic traditions has not been fully recognized by scholars till now. Regards S. Palaniappan From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 31 12:51:03 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 04:51:03 -0800 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227047795.23782.3705967488520509989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > But the indication for the presence of this local snake mythology >regarding Madurai is given by Kalidasa much earlier than any Tamil >text! Has a parallel in Karaikkal Ammaiyar sculptures being made in Southeast Asia, rather than South India. The AlavAy myth as the snake encircling Madurai, a fine analysis in D. Shulman, Tamil temple myths, 1980; The bhakti literature and talapurANams in Tamil, only the surface has been touched. V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 31 16:05:19 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 08:05:19 -0800 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227047798.23782.8980613478743055633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Interestingly, kuRRAlam temple in Potiyil mountain is so named because, kuRu + Alam = kuRRAlam. KuRRaalam 'Siva temple is famous and celebrated in Tevaram. Alam is the *banyan tree*. Dr. Palaniappan has shown the DakshiNAmUrti presence in Potiyil from the Sangam text, maturaik kAJci. Manimekalai and Cilappatikaram explicitly refer to DakshiNAmUrti. Kalittokai and TirumurukARRuppaTai refer to 'Siva under the banyan tree. Dr. Ganesan has given references to the ancient God (Siva?) under the banyan tree from sangam texts earlier (Re: Where was PANini inspired? (Part I) on 9 dec 1998. Is it true that banyan tree is so named in English because merchants (bania caste) gathered under the banyan tree, and entered into verbal agreements? The banyan tree being extremely sacred, the baniyas kept to their words in trade transactions. SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Wed Mar 31 06:18:42 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 09:18:42 +0300 Subject: Correct gypsy link Message-ID: <161227047789.23782.6060293362749835821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Tue Mar 30 00:26:56 MSK 1999 Sumedh Mungee puts a question: < Is the language of the Message-ID: <161227047793.23782.1309676933148695014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > Bh. Krishnamurthy in his Telugu verbabases, p. 24, > "Caldwell's assumption that there were no initial voiced plosives in > PDr.as reflected in Ta. and Ma. was contradicted by Jules Bloch on the > basis of the history of a few words like ghOTaka horse and drAviDa > name of a people, which, according to him, were originally native to > Dravidian. This view rceived support from some quarters and > contradiction from others. Burrow argued for Caldwell and analytically > put forth evidence to show that voicing of initial stops appearing in > some of the Dravidian languages, was only secondary and did > not represent PDr." > > Where does T. Burrow write that voicing in some Dravidian > languages does not represent PDr.? Thanks for the citation. Zvelebil, Dravidian Linguistics, Pondicherry, 1990, p. 9 refers to Burrow (1938), but does not list this reference in his bibliography. According to L.S. Ramaiah's bibliography of Dravidian languages and linguistics, Burrow published in 1938: "Dravidian Studies I, Bulletin of The School of Oriental and African Studies (BSOAS), University of London, pp. 711-722. _____________________________________________________________________________ Thomas Lehmann, e-mail: d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de South Asia Institute phone: 0049-6221-548908 of the University of Heidelberg, fax: 0049-6221-544998 Dept. of Indology, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, 69120 Heidelberg, Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Wed Mar 31 13:57:25 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 15:57:25 +0200 Subject: uraga and AlavAy In-Reply-To: <45262688.3701d4c3@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227047796.23782.6763399610855113690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A 02:54 31/03/99 EST, vous avez ?crit : >Alavay is a compound made up of Alam and vAy where Ta. Alam means banyan tree >and Ta. vAy should be interpreted as "place". Thus AlavAy means "the banyan >tree place" in much the same way "alaivAy" (aka.266.20) refers to "place of >waves". Originally it seems to have meant only a location inside Madurai and >not the whole of Madurai. What is the significance of the banyan tree place? >That is where dakSiNAmUrti is located along with his disciples. The importance >of dakSiNAmUrti cult in the mythology/history of Madurai, Potiyil, Agastya, >and Tamil grammatical, literary, and aesthetic traditions has not been fully >recognized by scholars till now. Greetings! How do you link this with Akam 181 (16-17) which seems to mention the presence of Shiva (of the 4 veda-s) in a place called AlamuRRam (Banyan Yard?) which is apparently connected with pukAr and the Chola? ............... nAn2 maRai mutu nUl mukkaN+ celvan2 AlamuRRam kavin2 peRa+ taiiya ............. Regards - Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) >Regards >S. Palaniappan > From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Mar 12 00:06:59 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 19:06:59 -0500 Subject: Kalaapa Message-ID: <161227047411.23782.9944898041015941698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Gansten [mailto:mgansten at SBBS.SE] >> In the astrological texts I am studying, the word kalaapa > frequently occurs > in contexts which seem to suggest the meaning 'strife, > quarrel, fight' etc. > However, I do not find this meaning supported by the standard Sanskrit > dictionaries available to me. Have list members come across > such uses of > kalaapa anywhere? > The Cologne Online Tamil Dictionary returns the following entries for a search on kalApam. Regards Chandra kalApam otl kalApam kalApam 01 1. women's zone of beads of bells consisting of 16 strands; 2. jewelled girdle of a woman; 3. peacock's tail; 4. umbrella made of peacock's feathers otl kalApam kalApam 02 rising, disturbance, uproar, raid, invasion kalApam otl kalApam kalApam 1. collection; cluster; 2. quiver (TLS) --------- interestingly there is a word 'kAlapam' which has the following entry: kALapam otl kALapam kALapam battle, fight, warfare From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Mon Mar 15 23:58:43 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 18:58:43 -0500 Subject: Language of Harappan Civilization; funerary pottery eviden Message-ID: <161227047489.23782.16521812712322599016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: S.Kalyanaraman [mailto:kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET] >> Please see the colorful slides at source related to recent > discoveries on > cemetery H culture which was an extensive cultural phenomenon > ca. 1900 BC: > http://www.harappa.com/indus2/index.html (Latest discoveries > in Harappa, > 1995-98, by J.M. Kenoyer and Richard H. Meadow) Slides 162 > and 164 showing the > blackbuck antelope, peacock and dotted circles (trefoil motif). > > It has been noted in an earlier posting that the peacock > connotes ji_vanji_va > (Pali), may the life live hereafter. In addition to the > peacock, dotted > circles, In relation to the peacock and the dotted circles, I would like to draw your attention to the Tamil word "poRi" which means dot/spot as well as the eye of the peacock's feather and the feather itself: >???From some classical Tamil texts: " pal poRi maJJai vel koTi akava" (tirumurukARRupppaTai: 122) maJJai = peacock; pal = many; poRi = the spotted/dotted/eyed feather (in reference to the Tamil god murukan2's vehicle) paripATal: "thikaz poRip pIli aNi mayil koTutttOn2" (paripATal:5:60) mayil = peacock pIli = feather poRi = spot "oL poRi eruttu" (kuRuntokai: 242:2) poRi = spot; eurttu = neck (here, of a cock) "poRi mayir eruttin2 kuRu naTaip pETai" (kuRuntokai:154:4) poRi = soptted; mayir = hair; eruttu = neck (here, of a hen) "poRi mayir vAraNam" {cilappatikAram: 4:77) poRi = spot; mayir = feather; vAraNam = cock In connection with the funerary aspects, it might be also worth mentioning that the Tamil god murukan2 is the lord of midnight, the last division of the day as per the ancient akam tradition which assigns that division of the day to kuRiJci one the five terrains. In general murukan2 is associated with the terminal portion of events such as a concert or the temple's activities. At big temples such as the vaittIswaran2 kOvil, the sixth and the last pUja offering is started with murukan2's image even though he is not the main deity of the temple. Even now, when a concert ends, compositions on murukan2 are sung; not only that, these song are usaully set to pentatonic melodies such as madhyamAvati or curuTTi associated with the kuRiJci theme and derived from the kuRiJcip pAlai, the heptatonic parent melody. Regards Chandra. From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Wed Mar 17 01:18:12 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 20:18:12 -0500 Subject: Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa and MaNimEkalai Message-ID: <161227047528.23782.16289835785366273599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan [mailto:Palaniappa at AOL.COM] > > One place is called > elangkon or elangkor. In > Tamil, "i" cannot occur in word-initial position. So often in > borrowed words > "i" is added in front. Sanskrit lankA will become Tamil ilagkai. Palaniappan, there is a type here, I suppose. you must be meaning that a Tamil word cannot begin with "l" (as in "laGkA") not "i". > The > alternation of word-initial "i" with "e" has been discussed > in the list > already. So Ptolemy's "elangkor/elangkon" may represent a > possible lankA on > the Kerala coast near Potiyil. We do have another "ilagkai" > in the Tamil > region attested in CT texts. In the sangkam era text, ciRupANARRuppaTai, composed in the cnourt of the king "OymAn2 nalliyakkOTan2" mentions "mAilaGkai" as his capital and that place as named after the "great and ancient ilaGkai"... " naRu vI nAkamum akilum Aramum tuRaiyoTu makaLirkkut tOL puNai Akiya poru pun2al tharUum pOkkaru marapin2 thon2 mA ilaGkai karuvoTu peyariya nan2 mA ilaGkai man2n2aruLLum ... uRupulit tuppin2 Oviyar perumakan2" [ciRupANARRuppaTai:116-122] The commentator naccin2Arkkin2iyar says: "the good and great mAilaGkai which is rich in the water that provides the woods of trees such as ...sandal as rafts for the bathing women, the mA ilaGkai which is hard for anyone to destroy because of the auspicious time when it was founded, the mA ilaGkai which is named after the great and ancient ilaGkai...he is descended from the kings of mA ilaGkai belonging to the Oviyar clan ". Regards Chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Wed Mar 17 17:33:26 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 12:33:26 -0500 Subject: Kalaapa Message-ID: <161227047550.23782.12799435016876819717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some occurrences of "kalApam"/"kalAva"/"kalavam" in classical Tamil texts: I have translated the snippets from the commentary of naccin2Arkkin2iyar. [I hope this also serves to cite usages of teh word "mayil" in the classical text for Klayanaraman's purpose.] ciRupANARRuppaTai:15 "maNi vayiN kalApam parappi" ->"[the peacock] spreading its feather that has eyes like blue gems" ciRupANARRuppaTai: 264: "maNi mayil kalApam maJciTaip parappi" ->"[the clouds at the peak of the moutain] spreading themselves amidst the peacock feathers with eyes like blue gems" kalAva: to mix: tirumurukARRuppaTai:301 "Acin2i mutu cuLai kalAva" ->"[the rapidly descending water fall...] mixing the mature pulp of the jack fruit ..." -->kalAva: to get agitated neTunalvATai: 6: "nITu itazk kaNNi nIr alaik kalAva" ->the long petals [of the kAntaL flower: glorisoa superba] making up the head band agitated by the water waves kuRJcippATTu:48 "akal iru vAn2attu vIcu vaLi kalAvalin2" ->the blowing wind when joining the vast expanse of the sky kuRJcippATTu: 127 "kazal tuyal varum tORum tiruntu aTik kalAva" ->the male anklets agitating against the feet ... malaipaTukaTAm: 234-5 "........ veL vErp pIlik kalava maJJai kaTciyil taLarin2um" pIli = the single quill ->"even if the peacock tires in its dancing owing to the weight of its feather of white-rooted quills [or collection of feathers] spread ..." The commentator uses the word "kalApam" to explain "kalavam"! [..."ATutaRku viritta kalApattin2atu pArattAlE ATiyiLaittu n-iRpin2um". Regards Chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Wed Mar 17 19:10:33 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 14:10:33 -0500 Subject: Kalaapa Message-ID: <161227047554.23782.12142624368565518362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: C.R. Selvakumar [mailto:selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA] > > Since I don't know the context of the words in malaipaTukaTAm, > I'm not sure of the meaning I've proposed except to > point out that > * > *The commentator uses the word "kalApam" to explain "kalavam"! > *[..."ATutaRku viritta kalApattin2atu pArattAlE ATiyiLaittu > n-iRpin2um". I had quoted the exact text from the n.in2iyar's commentary above within square brackets containing the phrase "ATiyiLaittu " which clearly means "tired from dancing"... Regards Chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Tue Mar 23 00:39:47 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 99 19:39:47 -0500 Subject: peNNai, piNai, piNi, piTi ( RE:River Krishna) Message-ID: <161227047687.23782.16593258417977981806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Occurrences of "peNNai" in the long poems of the sangkam era's pattuppATTu anthologies" "thIm peNNai maTal cErppavaum" (porunarARRuppaTai: 207) ->"[the herons] staying in the leaves of the sweet palm tree" "vaN kOT peNNAi vaLartta nuGku" (ciRupANARRuppaTai:27) ->"the rich cluster of palm fruits" "puLLAr peNNAip pulampu maTal" (perumpANARRuppaTai: 314) -> "the separate leaves of palm tree occupied by birds" "tiraL araip peNNai nuGku" (perum: 360) ->"the fruit of the palm tree with a broad base" "OGku irum peNNai akam maTal akava" (kuRiJcippATTu: 220) ->"[the an2Ril (krauJca) bird] calling [its mate] from inside the leaves of the tall and big palm tree(s)" "in2am mAvin2 iNarp peNNAi" (paTTin2appAlai: 18) ->"the mango trees growing in group and the palm trees with clusters [of fruits]" "piNarp peNNAip pizi mAntiyum" (paTTin2appAlai: 89) ->"drinking the brew made from the scaly-skinned palm tree [fruits]" [leaves = parNa ...peNNai...?] piNar = scaly-skinned (or rough-skinned) ----------------------------------------- [repeated] "piNarp peNNAip pizi mAntiyum" (paTTin2appAlai: 89) ->"drinking the brew made from the scaly-skinned palm tree [fruits]" "piNar mOTTu uru kezu celavin2 aJcu varu pEy makaL" (tirumurukARRuppaTai: 50-51) ->"the fearsome fiendish woman with scaly body and scary gait" malaipaTukaTAm: 246 "neRik keTak kiTanta irum piNar eruttin2 ....En2am" ->"the boar with the rough neck lying [abnormally or on the wayside ]" "irum piNart taTak kai iru nilam cErtti" (kuRiJcippATTu: 163) ->"[the elephant] rolling up its dark rough-skinned long trunk..." piNavu = female: ------------------ "peNNUm piNavum makkaTku uriya" (tolkAppiyam: marapiyal: 61) ->"the words "peN" and "piNavu" are reserved as designations for the female gender of the humans" " mAn2 tOl paLLI makavoTu muTaGki In2 piNavu oziyap pOki" (perumpANARRuppaTai: 89-90) ->"the post-partum female [of the hunter occupation] lying on the bed of deer skin and the rest having gone away" "pan2 mayirp piNavoTu kEzal ukaLa" (maturaik kAJci: 174) ->"the wild boar frolicking with its hirsute female [mate]" "piNavu nAy muTukkiya taTiyoTu" (malaipaTu kaTAm: 177) ->"with the stick of flesh [of the varamus bengalensis] hunted and fetched by thge female dog" piTi: [female animal especailly of the elephant] ---- "piTi puNar perum kaLiRu" (maturaik kAJci: 676) ->"the male elephant accompanying its female" ..etc piNi = "binding, tying, roll/fold, bundle, guarding". ----------------------------------------------- "piNi aviznta ...aTaku " (maturakkAJci: 531) ->"the curry leaves unfolding/unrolling..." "kAtalar kavavup piNIt tuJci" (maturakkAJci: 662-3) ->"[the ladies] sleeping in the binding embrace of their lovers" piNai = verb: to string, noun. = doe (female deer) -------------------------------------------------- "men2 tOL pal piNait tazIit talait tantu" (tirumurukARRuppaTai: 216) ->"starting off the dance by holding the hands of the many soft-shouldered doe [-like ladies]" "iNaippuRu piNaiyal vaLaii" (tirumurukARRuppaTai: 30) ->"tying the garland of strung flowers around ..." Hope this helps. Regards Chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Tue Mar 23 01:39:35 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 99 20:39:35 -0500 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047689.23782.15879903811814814774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Venkatraman Iyer [mailto:venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM] r Telugu texts miss this meaning? > > porunai, as in taNporunai and Aan2porunai, seems to come from > the verb 'poru' , like aaRu < aRu as pointed out by Prof. Selvakumar. > Even a Sangam poet is named after a famous phrase he employs in > a poem - "kal poru ciRu nurai". > More research in the pattuppATTu reveals that in additon to the nromally expected sense of "to fight or to slap against etc." the following sense is also common in sangam era classical Tamil texts as shown below mostly from the [ten long] poems from the anthology "pattuppATTu". Ta. poru = to cut, to incise, to corrode, to chisel Ta. poRi = to mark as by etching, impressing This also goes well with the Ta. "ARu" < Ta. aRu = to cut theory quoted by Prof.C.R.Sevakumar. peNNai < porunai. "vain nuti poruta vaTu Az vari nutal" (tirumurukARRuppaTai: 78) -->"the forehead [of the elephant vehicle of murukan2] that has the spots with the impressions from the *cutting* of the sharp pointed goad [aGkucam]" Note: this is the translation of the commentator naccin2Arkkin2iyar. taken page: 45 of "pattuppATTu mUlamum uraiyum" [the ten long poems: source text and commentary] authored by UVS Iyer, thrid edition 1931; photocopied reproduction/publication by Tamil University, Tanjore 1986. I reproduce the original tamil text by n.in2iyar: " kUrmaiyuTaittAkiya tOTTi veTTin2a vaTuvazuttin2a pukaraiyuTaiya mattakattaittE" here: veTTin2a < veTTu = to cut "ayil uLi poruta ..." (ciRupANARRuppaTai: 52-3) ->"deeply cut by the sharp chisel ... " again n.in2iyar's. many transformations similar to this are common and have become idomatic in classical Tamil. Ta. pANan2 < Ta. pATunan2; Ta. cONATu < Ta. chOza nATu. (auvaiyAR: "cONATu cORuTaittu") Here the retroflex "N" replaces a sequence of sounds. Ta. poRi = to imprint, to impress, to etch... ---------------------------------- "mAn2 aTi poRitta mayaGku atar marGkin2" (perumpANARRuppaTai: 106) ->"the path with impressions of the feet of deer [or foot prints]" "valampuri poRitta mA tAGku taTakk kai" (mullaippATTu: 2) ->"the long arms with finger prints of valampuri [conch with clockwise turns] and embracing tirumakaL (or lakshmi)" "viTar cilai poRitta viRalOn2 " (cilappatikAram: 28: 136) -->"the valorous one who etched the cEra's royal insignia of bow on the big mountain [himAlaya].." Hope this helps the discussion even further. Chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Tue Mar 23 22:27:42 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 17:27:42 -0500 Subject: peNNai, piNai, piNi, piTi ( RE:River Krishna)] Message-ID: <161227047698.23782.9448520727930351028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: S.Kalyanaraman > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 9:37 PM > pen.n.ai could be an abbreviate form of pen. pan-ai = female > palmyra pal; the > component phonemes are perhaps unrelated to the river semant. > > The distinction between male and female trees is that the > male tree of a > species yields gum resin... > > Doesn't the Ta. peNNai denote both male and female palmyra tree; and not just the female palmyra tree? I would really be interested in knowing such a usage for that word. And the word for male palm(yra) tree if any. Thanks, Chandra. From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Tue Mar 23 22:31:54 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 17:31:54 -0500 Subject: River Krishna Message-ID: <161227047700.23782.12850226099597363013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY [mailto:veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN] > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 11:21 AM >no poet can drool over panai-lined rivers. > Poets hardly ever get to name such entities as rivers and mountains which are hundreds of thousands of years old . These entities are *usually* christened in prehistoric times well before any decent literary development has taken place, at least when we are talking about names from the earlier layers. Chandra