From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  1 01:09:22 1999
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Mon, 31 May 99 18:09:22 -0700
Subject: Resist!
Message-ID: <161227049782.23782.15954102147539621730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I would like to co-exist on this list with Vaidikas and other
>traditionalists, but for obvious reasons I do not want to argue with >them.

I agree with George Thompson.

Like Daniel Baulm pointed out, any list would not take off
like D. Wujastyk's INDOLOGY list. This is an wonderful place,
India being so vast and varied, with multitude of traditions
and texts in a long time depth, a wealth so big that no one
can handle it alone.

Considering that career/monetary opportunities are few
and far between for those in Sanskrit and to a great extent,
Tamil, this is a good meeting ground for the rare birds in
any University campus. Let us all join hands,
leave out our -isms, and solve many good old problems
hindering our way to understand ancient India.

Greetings to all.





______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From thompson at JLC.NET  Tue Jun  1 00:43:39 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 31 May 99 20:43:39 -0400
Subject: Resist!
In-Reply-To: <37530DBB.831D527@zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <161227049780.23782.5432450068649247694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

In spite of the plaintive tone of my previous post, I agree with all of
Harry Falk's remarks, including the final ones below. I have benefitted a
great deal from being a member of this list, and I intend to continue to
support it.

I'd even like to discuss, for example, the dating of the Rgveda, but I do
not know how to do that without stepping into an enormous swamp of
vituperation.

The truth is, as Dr.K.Maeswaran Nair recently suggested, I am open-minded
about the dating, and in any case my suggestion for a date of 1000 BCE was
based on a comparison of certain features of the RV with similar features
in old Avestan. And it was not ever intended as a diminution of
contemporary Vaidika culture. No matter how old the RV, I am interested in
*it*, and not in its use by contemporary Vaidikas, or anyone else. These
are, in my view, two distinct fields of study.

I would like to co-exist on this list with Vaidikas and other
traditionalists, but for obvious reasons I do not want to argue with them.

Best wishes,

George Thompson

At 12:31 AM 6/1/1999 +0200, you wrote:

[much deleted]

>emails. We should find a way to survive the present conditions. The idea
to have
>this
>list was great and it still deserves to be supported.
>Harry Falk
>
>




From jpstephen at HOME.COM  Tue Jun  1 01:23:35 1999
From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (stephens)
Date: Mon, 31 May 99 21:23:35 -0400
Subject: New list / new rules (RE: Request for Info)
Message-ID: <161227049787.23782.13056762783802296853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to know if  *all*  the Indology scholars in this list find the
input of the non-scholars an absolute waste. Has there been no benefit to
your research?

I feel a healthy interaction between the scholars and the traditionalists
would be beneficial to both, am I wrong?

Sujatha

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Baum <dbaum at ISDN.NET.IL>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: New list / new rules (RE: Request for Info)


>Hi,
>
>I would like to remind all the serious scholars on this list that I set up
>an Indo-iranian linguistics mailing list some time ago. Although it has
lots
>of members, it never really took off. I would once again like to invite all
>the Indo-Iranian scholars (Vedic, Avestan mainly, but middle and modern
>languages where relevant) to join the list for serious discussion of these
>topics. To join, send a message to indo_iranian-subscribe at egroups.com, or
>mail me personally and I will subscribe you.
>
>The list is not currently moderated, but it will be if it degerates into
the
>same kind of boring nonsense as we see on the indology list.
>
>Daniel Baum
>msdbaum at mscc.huji.ac.il, dbaum at isdn.net.il
>Home Page http://www.angelfire.com/il/dbaum
>Tel: ++972-2-583-6634; Mob. ++972-54-972-829




From jpstephen at HOME.COM  Tue Jun  1 01:28:07 1999
From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (stephens)
Date: Mon, 31 May 99 21:28:07 -0400
Subject: [Q]: Research on Marathas in TN
Message-ID: <161227049790.23782.2598392742430771309.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I believe this migration happened at the time time of Maharaja Sarfoji who
moved the capital and his court to Thanjavur.

Sujatha

-----Original Message-----
From: Bal Prasad <bprasad at NETCOM.COM>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 9:14 PM
Subject: [Q]: Research on Marathas in TN


>I am trying to get information regarding the group of Maharashtrians
>who went to Tamil Nadu during the Peshwa era and who are often referred
>to as TDB (Thanjavur Deshasta Brahmins). A large number of them settled
>around Thanjavur and they founded the Sarasvati Mahal library there. I
>have been told that the migration happened during the reign of Kings
>Shivaji and Sambhaji. I would like to know if anything has been
>published about them.
>
>TIA,
>Prasad




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Tue Jun  1 02:24:49 1999
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Mon, 31 May 99 22:24:49 -0400
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra,  and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227049792.23782.11843946303634723753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM> wrote:

>Markandeya Sastry concludes the article by saying:
>"As a result of this discussion, one has two alternatives thrown up
with
>regard to the authorship of mAnasollAsa, --
>
>(1) The author is not surezvara since the views of pratyabhijJA
system of
>philosophy and the concomitant zaiva school are predominant in it,
or -
>(2) surezvara is the author but he tried to effect a compromise
between the
>zankara-advaita and the pratyabhijJA school.

Vidyasankar has summarized many points. I'll just add a few more
comments. The word pratyabiGYA and comments about the 36 tattvas, has
led some authors like Amarnath Ray and Markandeya Sastri accept that
it accepts Kashmir Shaivism. But, if we read the text carefully, it
can be seen that it is not so. Even the list of 36 tattvas is
drastically different.

>Was the authorship of the only genuine(?) stotra of zankara due to
the need
>to counter the ziva dakSiNAmUrti devotional cult of the Tamil
country?

I don't see why. In his genuine works, sha.nkara is not very bothered
about worship of Gods. It can be seen that he accepted it as a part of
a householders duties, and very likely also accepted it as useful for
the *lay* sannyAsin. But, in his commentary on the kena-upanishhad
pada bhAshhya he very clearly distinguishes between his idea of
self-knowledge and worship of Gods in his commentary to verse 1.5.  He
expicitly mentions Siva, Vishnu, HiraNyagarbha and Indra and
distinguishes their worship from knowledge of the self. So, I think
that it is highly unliklely that he countered some devotional cult by
co-opting some of its features. Sha.nkara usually attacks a system
directly and inclusivism is a rare characteristic in his genuine works
(he does make some concessions in a few places). In any case, the
daxiNAmUrti hymn is not a typical "bhakti" poem, which would counter
the popularity of a devotional cult.

Regarding whether the hymn itself is a genuine work of sha.nkara.
Gussner has come to the conclusion that it is the *only* poem which
can be accepted as a genuine work by using stylometric analysis. I
have some reservations about some of his assumptions (I am not
disputing stylometric analysis itself, like some authors). Vidyasankar
and I are taking a look at the daxiNAmUrti hymn, and it seems it is a
genuine work of Sha.nkara. Regarding the commentary, I feel that part
of it may indeed be by a Sureshvara or some immediate disciple of his.
This is based on some distinctive _stylistic_ features in Sureshvaras
genuine works which I have not seen in any other advaitins works. The
exposition of advaita also resembles Sureshvaras original works than
that of later advaitins. Regarding other poems: There are some other
poems like the shiva bhuja.ngam and a *subset* of the "bhaja govindam"
in its present form, which I feel are genuine works, based on some
peculiar features in these hymns. However, I have not come to a
definite conclusion on these. I think it is highly unlikely that the
shivAnandalaharI and some of the other famous poems are by sha.nkara.
They are very different from sha.nkaras usual works.  Some of the
poems like the vedashArashiva stotra may also be genuine works, but it
is impossible to say anything *definite*. This is because they don't
exhibit any of sha.nkaras distinctive style, while also not going
against his style!

>Why did madhurAja yogin, a disciple of abhinavagupta say in the
dhyAnazloka,
>"May the glorious god dakSiNAmUrti (abhinavagupta), who is an
incarnation of
>ziva protect us"?

By the 12th century, daxiNAmUrti was quite famous as a teacher. His
name comes up in the Agama-s and even the late Vishnuite Bhagavata
Purana tries to coopt him as a Vishnuite teacher! So, madhurAja yogins
comments are not very surprising.

>Can one say that the compromise between the zaivism of the Tamil
country and
>zankara's advaita leads to pratyabhijJA ?


Perhaps, but it is highly debatable. Swami Laksmanjoo points out some
key differences in his "Kashmir Shavism: The secret Supreme",
published by the SUNY press. It's a good starting point on comparing
these two systems.

Rama




From shrao at IA.NET  Tue Jun  1 03:37:34 1999
From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao)
Date: Mon, 31 May 99 22:37:34 -0500
Subject: Gentoo studies (details on SR)
In-Reply-To: <199905292039.UAA16952@smtp2.polbox.com>
Message-ID: <161227049795.23782.2760350278702883054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists:

Pursuant to sentiments expressed recently on this list, this will be my
last response on this topic; although I generally would prefer to go for
an extensive point-by-point rebuttal running to several hundred lines if
necessary, in the present instance I have been rather disappointed by the
very low standard of the debate, both in terms of scholarship and
civility, and see no purpose in getting into a long discussion centered
largely on uninformed quibbles about my character or skills (or alleged
lack thereof).  I apologize to the list owner and others for making this
posting longer than a few screens of text, and trust that this will be
forgiven, since I do not intend to repeat this performance.

To be precise, I will address just one issue: whether it is true, as has
been held, that the meaning of `nitya' in the RV's `vAchA virUpa nityayA'
is not consistent, on grounds of philology, with the meaning given to it
by Sayana and others.

Philology is a fairly accurate science insofar as regular phonological
correspondences can be established among languages, which can then be used
to identify individual words in those languages as having a common
historical ancestor.  But that regularity does not extend to semantic
correspondences.  Semantic drift can be documented, but cannot be
predicted precisely enough to say what a particular word in a particular
context at a particular time must have meant without direct evidence of it
-- least of all for technical terms that may depart from contemporary
casual use, and that typically resist normal processes of change.
Referring to related philosophical texts or texts of the period is an
attempt to establish that direct evidence, or at least a number of pieces
of indirect evidence that point to the same conclusion.

Fortunately, ancient India was probably the most literate society of the
ancient IE world; so direct evidence is in relative abundance, at least by
comparison to other early IE languages.  On occasion, semantic drift or
"semantic distance" over a large number of words believed to be "core
terms" or more "basic" to a language's lexicon is tabulated and used to
make an argument about how closely related several languages are, e.g.
whether Hittite separated earlier than Greek did from Sanskrit, etc.

Even then, the results are often contested as being unreliable.

The best method, by far, is to use contextual evidence from texts of
the same language and period in which the word occurs to constrain
its meaning.  Of course, with philosophical or other technical
terms, that can be just as error-prone.

For example, one might try to acquire a better perspective on the early
meaning of "nitya" in Advaita by looking at its use in the Buddhist texts
of the Pali canon, which probably broke off contact before later Indian
commentators on Shankara, etc., appropriated it to their own uses (if you
believe they changed its meaning in doing so).

In the present instance, the question is what the meaning of the Vedic
`nitya' is, and this is certainly a question of *philosophy* more than it
is one of *philology*.  Even to the extent that philology is an aid, it is
not academically useful to simply assert the pedigree of philology as a
science, since this does not automatically show what is desired, to wit,
that the classical commentators have distorted the meaning of `nitya'.

Thus, if one asks if philology could have the strength to overrule the
classical interpretation (which is pretty unanimous across the board, btw)
on this point, then the answer has to be no, philology does not, in
general, have the strength to overrule classical interpretations.  The
only hard exception to this would be if philologists came across an
ancient lexicon (and these did exist) that defines philosophical terms.
If there are an abundance of contemporary or subject-related texts that
gloss the term differently, or seem to use it very differently, this can
also be taken as a very strong suggestion that the classical
interpretation is mistaken.  In the absence of that, philology can point
to documented uses of a term, but normally cannot exclude other uses,
unless they're way off base (the philological evidence strongly suggests,
for example, that `nitya' has never meant "horse").

However, the above is an objection in principle against attempting to
reject the classical interpretations based on philology.  Philology does
not, however, reject the classical understanding in this instance (and in
others).  `nitya' is a nominal derivative of the root ni-, which indicates
"down, back, in, into, within" and in certain compounds, a negation, cf.
"down-hearted."  `nitya' is "something that exists within or in itself,"
from there extending to "innate, native," "one's own" (opp. of ara.na),
and also "continual, perpetual or eternal," and from there "ordinary,
usual, invariable, fixed, necessary, or obligatory."  It is even attested
as meaning "sea or ocean," in its aspect as something of seemingly endless
expanse.  It can be compared to nija, also from ni-, compounded with the
root -jan, "to bear or generate," meaning also "innate, native, of one's
own kind," which also extended to "constant or continual."  ni- has a
number of IE cognates: Greek e-ni, a variant of en, 'in', found in early
Greek epic poetry and in eastern Greek dialects, from which come a number
of technical English terms, e.g. en-cyclopaedic, en-demic, etc.  Also,
Slavic ni-zu, German nieder, "low", and English nether- (e.g.
nether-world), and be-neath.  The -tya suffix is perhaps related to Latin
-tio(n-), which, through French, is realised in English as -tion.
Philological evidence thus points to an original meaning more like
"innateness."  This also gels with the word `nitya' as used in other known
Vedic contexts, e.g., `eshha nityo mahimA brahmaNasya', which would
meaning "the Brahman's greatness is innate," i.e., not derivative or
liable to wax and wane.

As it happens in this particular case, the philological evidence I have
presented does not even come close to rejecting "eternal" as the original
Vedic meaning.  The classical interpretation is to be preferred to any
more limited temporal meaning.  The reason is that the association with
temporality is a secondary development, according to the philological
evidence.  "Eternal, perpetual etc." developed by association with
innately sustained existence, not by exaggeration of a more limited
temporal concept.

In general, based purely on philology/linguistics, no worthwhile scholar
would say that horizontal comparisons of words with cognates in Greek,
Avestan, etc., are a necessarily better idea than attempting to derive
meanings based on vertical comparisons with later development in the
Sanskrit classical literature.  Neither is very accurate and neither is
consistently better than the other (there are cases where vertical
comparisons are totally misleading and horizontal ones are spot on, and
vice versa).

Examples:  The Skt. word for 'mist' is miha, megha or something like that.
The closest IE cognate is Latin micturire, "to urinate," i.e., "make a
mist."  The Skt. meaning is better preserved in Indic reflexes (although I
don't recall any off the top of my head).  Conversely, `lady' is a higher
or more respectful term for a woman in Modern English, whereas `woman' has
been more neutral for a very long time.  Comparison with IE cogates,
however, reveals that `woman' must come from OE wif-man, "wife of a man,"
whereas `lady' must come from OE hlaef-dige, "one who kneads dough," i.e.,
a kitchen servant.  Over time, `lady' has switched registers, but the
phonological correspondences with other IE languages reveal its true
origins.

This limitation is true of all languages, not just Sanskrit.  If
philologists are unable to determine unequivocally the meaning of a
philosophical term from context, typically they back off to texts of
similar contemporary or descendant schools or genres with whom it is
believed a great deal of that context is shared.  Using IE cognates or
non-technical senses of modern Hindi reflexes would both be methods of
last resort.

Lastly, `vAchA virUpa nityayA' is not the only Vedic statement of
relevance in this context; others have been cited as well where the
meaning of `nitya' is not even called into question because it is not
used.  It is obvious to me that the rejection of the notion that the
concept of apaurushheyatva is of Vedic origin, is not based on deep
understanding of the concept itself, nor of the Vedas, but is only an ad
hoc back-formation of arguments intended to justify a preconception.

It would also not be remiss of me to observe that "Western" scholarship of
the Vedas has put its foot wrong on more than one other instance in
claiming that a certain philosophical concept was not found in the Vedas
(for instance, esteemed Indologists whose names are well-known on this
list and outside have claimed that the concepts of rebirth, and of memory
as a valid source of cognition, are not Vedic in origin; I will not
elaborate on this to spare them a few blushes, and to keep this
already-long posting from growing even longer).

Regards,

Shrisha Rao




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 05:55:41 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 01:55:41 -0400
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227049800.23782.10320087485731986811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many thanks to Vidyasankar and Ramakrishnan.

In a message dated 5/30/99 4:48:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

> Could you tell us about the significant features of the Tamil dakshiNAmUrti
>  devotional cult? Was Siva-dakshiNAmUrti primarily viewed as a guru, rather
>  than as the creator? Was there a great emphasis on Siva's teaching through
>  silence (mauna-vyAkhyA), and on Siva as a youth teaching old disciples
>  (vRddhAH zishyAH, gurur yuva)? What do the Tamil sources say? Finally, had
>  the dakshiNAmUrti conception entered Chera land in early times, or did it
>  remain confined to Madurai and the pANDyan kingdom?

Clearly, post-zankara texts mention dakSiNAmUrti's silence. To see, if that
was the case even in pre-zankara days, we have to look at CT, cilappatikAram,
maNimEkalai, tEvAram, and tirumantiram.

We find instances where teaching is meant by the use of the verb col or urai
which if taken literally would mean that he spoke. See below.

an2Ru Alin2 kIz iruntu agku aRam con2n2An2ai... (tev.6.50.3)

But, we also find instances where he "bestowed" without telling us that he
spoke.

Alin2 kIz aRagkaL ellAm an2Ru avarkku aruLicceytu  (tev.4.36.6)

So, did the use of "col" or "urai" constitute a literal usage or metaphorical
usage? You may know about the expression "collAmal con2n2avarai.." used by
paraJcOti mun2ivar. An explanation of how he instructed the sages is given
below.

Alattu Ar nizalil aRam nAlvarkkuk
kOlattAl uraiceytavan2 ................(tev. 5.59.2)

Here it is clear that he did not speak, but he instructed by his kOlam or
form/appearance.

All three verses are by appar.

As far as the pre-zankaran texts I have checked, there is no explicit
description of the age of the teacher vs. the age of the students. But I
think, it probably was to be expected. One does not find Hindu gods depicted
as old men except in some specific episodes of stories as in murukan2's
stories.

Coming to the prevalence of dakSiNAmUrti on the west coast of Tamil country,
there is a mention in the CT text ciRupANARRuppaTai about dakSiNAmUrti as
follows:

.............................................kaligkam
Al amar celvaRku amarntan2an2 koTutta
cAvam tAgkiya cAntu pular tiNi tOL
Arvam nal mozi Ayum....                        (ciRu. 96-99)

Here the chieftain Ay of potiyil region is described as giving a fine cloth
to dakSiNAmUrti (Al amar celvan2). The jurisdiction of Ays extended from
Nagarkoil in the south to Tiruvalla  in the north according to Sreedhara
Menon.

As for his nature of teacher or creator, CT texts call him "kaTavuL" and even
"ton2mutu kaTavuL". Moreover, we have the following tEvAram of campantar:

paNTu nAlvarukku aRam uraittu aruLip pal ulakin2il uyir vAzkkai
kaNTa nAtan2Ar ................................................
(tEv. 2.107.7)

So he is definitely god-creator too.

The importance of dakSiNAmUrti (who teaches without speaking) for the Tamil
tradition can be seen in the story of ziva teaching Tamil grammar to agastya
as given in nampi's tiruviLaiyATal (18.8)

"...akattiya mAmun2iyE nalla pOtamuRak kIran2ukku ivvupatEcattaic cintaiyuRa
nAmuraittapaTiyE nIyum ceppuken2at *tirunOkkAl upatEcittAn2*"

nampi also calls ziva "tentamizkkuru" or southern Tamil teacher.

That dakSiNAmUrti was worshipped by brahmins can be inferred from a story in
cilappatikaram where a brahmin boy from taGkAl (near villiputtUr) who is said
to have the name of "Al amar celvan2" is also called 'takkiNan2" (Skt.
dakSiNa). This kid is described as picking up vedic recitation very quickly.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 06:01:20 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 02:01:20 -0400
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra,  and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227049802.23782.11534228007540654959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 5/31/99 9:25:08 PM Central Daylight Time,
ramakris at EROLS.COM writes:

> His
>  name comes up in the Agama-s and even the late Vishnuite Bhagavata
>  Purana tries to coopt him as a Vishnuite teacher!

Actually, even earlier poykai AzvAr in tivviyappirapantam 2085 and
tirumazicai AzvAr in tivviyappirapantam 2398 do that.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 06:28:57 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 02:28:57 -0400
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227049804.23782.12173735678925960657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 5/30/99 3:52:52 AM Central Daylight Time,
vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

> However, the view most accepted by scholars is that abhinavagupta
>  and his followers influenced Tamil Saivism. The reverse influence, from
>  Tamil Nadu to Kashmir, that you posit may not go very well. But the
>  preference for Sanskrit sources over Tamil ones among scholarly circles is
>  nothing new to you!

Certainly. According to K. C. Pandey, abhinavagupta quotes Pallava mahendra
varman's mattavilAsa prahasana. We have the presence of Tamil zaivites in
north India indicated by kAdambarI and harSacaritA. As I have shown earlier
Kalidasa must have interacted with a person from the Tamil country. I think
Rajatarangini also mentions the presence of a Tamil in the Kashmir king's
court. So, I do not know why there cannot be an influence from Tamilnadu to
Kashmir.

I think the import of the colophon of kuRiJcippATTU, a CT text, that it was
composed specifically to teach an Aryan (north Indian) king the principles of
Tamil (love poetry) has not been given due attention.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From dbaum at ISDN.NET.IL  Tue Jun  1 00:01:43 1999
From: dbaum at ISDN.NET.IL (Daniel Baum)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 03:01:43 +0300
Subject: New list / new rules (RE: Request for Info)
Message-ID: <161227049777.23782.4173086576461018627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,

I would like to remind all the serious scholars on this list that I set up
an Indo-iranian linguistics mailing list some time ago. Although it has lots
of members, it never really took off. I would once again like to invite all
the Indo-Iranian scholars (Vedic, Avestan mainly, but middle and modern
languages where relevant) to join the list for serious discussion of these
topics. To join, send a message to indo_iranian-subscribe at egroups.com, or
mail me personally and I will subscribe you.

The list is not currently moderated, but it will be if it degerates into the
same kind of boring nonsense as we see on the indology list.

Daniel Baum
msdbaum at mscc.huji.ac.il, dbaum at isdn.net.il
Home Page http://www.angelfire.com/il/dbaum
Tel: ++972-2-583-6634; Mob. ++972-54-972-829




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  1 12:05:51 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 05:05:51 -0700
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227049809.23782.5465531909775721216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>on Siva as a youth teaching old disciples (vRddhAH zishyAH, gurur >yuva)?
>What do the Tamil sources say?

This is present in Tamil country from early times:
The youthful Murukan teaching the praNavam to his father, Lord
Shiva. (cf. Tiruppukazh)

>Finally, had the dakshiNAmUrti conception entered Chera land in early
>times, or did it remain confined to Madurai and the pANDyan kingdom?

[...]<<<
Coming to the prevalence of dakSiNAmUrti on the west coast of Tamil
country, there is a mention in the CT text ciRupANARRuppaTai about
dakSiNAmUrti as follows:

..............................................kaligkam
Al amar celvaRku amarntan2an2 koTutta
cAvam tAgkiya cAntu pular tiNi tOL
Arvam nal mozi Ayum....                        (ciRu. 96-99)

Here the chieftain Ay of potiyil region is described as giving a
fine cloth to dakSiNAmUrti (Al amar celvan2). The jurisdiction of Ays
extended from Nagarkoil in the south to Tiruvalla  in the north
according to Sreedhara Menon.
>>>

A question to Dr. K. Maheswaran Nair and others who know Kerala:
Have seen color slides of big mural paintings in Kerala temples
on Dakshinamurti. Seated in a dense tropical forest. Sometimes,
even lion-tail monkeys unique to Silent valley forest on
Palghat gap are depicted. Wondering about the book
of palm leaves, (the leaves are quite long), held by two
nAga snakes hanging down from a bough, their heads
forming a shape to hold the palm leaf book.  This resembles
a swing. Is the palm leaves held by nAgams descending like
the aerial roots of the banyan fig tree with Dakshinamurti
sitting under the banyan tree unique conception of
D. iconography? In Kerala alone?

Regards,
N. Ganesan



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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  1 13:50:23 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 06:50:23 -0700
Subject: The place name, AihoLe
Message-ID: <161227049812.23782.121516936503712365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can Kannda speakers tell about "hoLe" = river, please? Is that what represented
river in 8th century, 10th cent.? Or, was there a word closer to
tamil words,for instance, aaRu?

In the Tamil inscriptions found at Sarkar Periyapalayam
(called kurakkut taLi in Tevaram, 8th cent. CE), and Piranmalai,
the merchant guilds of 500 from all(1000) directions are talked about.
This guild has a Tamil inscription in Srivijaya empire (Indonesia) too.

The guild's place name is "ayyampozil" in Tamil. Probably,
ai+am pozil = "five elegant gardens".

The number five is important in those guilds, These merchants go
by the title, "Five Hunderd" (ainnURRuvar); Also, a detailed description
of the five divisions of authority/responsibility/departments of trade
among ainnURRuvar is available in Periyapalayam inscription.

ayyampozhil = *ai + am + pozil receives support in that
ayyavole gets shortened to "aihoLe".

Is ka. hoLe cognate with ta. pozhil (garden, division of country)?
Ta. aaRu comes from the verb, "aRu" (to cut, divide);
Ta. pozhil has an attested meaning "division of a country/expanse",
this usage is semantically related to ka. hoLe (river).

TN town, pozhilvAycci and Ka. hoLenarsipur may have this "pozhil/hoLe"
in them. Is hoLe narsipur having "traders' guild" inscriptions?

Regards,
SM

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  1 14:59:44 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 07:59:44 -0700
Subject: Resist!
Message-ID: <161227049829.23782.2385986274537219179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Before we Indians wear the hats of the Hindu(tva) version
of bible preachers on Sunday TV and start our ridicules
and rhetorics when we hear theories like IVC is most likely
Dravidian with Sanskrit playing an insignificant role or that RV
is likely to date from (say) 1200 BCE, readings like
a) O. Chadwick, The secularization of the European mind
in the 19th century and b) Voltaire's Bastards, etc.,
will be a help.

I think renaissance, reformation, enlightenment of
Hinduism has a long way to go.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  1 15:50:09 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 08:50:09 -0700
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227049834.23782.4574178571575211347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM> wrote:

>As far as the pre-zankaran texts I have checked, there is no explicit
>description of the age of the teacher vs. the age of the students.
One should not discount the historical influence of Sankara himself as a
young guru teaching old disciples. The Sanskrit texts that mention the
relative ages of teacher and disciples are almost all post-Sankaran I think.
That Sankara was equivalent to (if not an incarnation of) Siva is a notion
found even in the works of his immediate disciples, padmapAda and sureSvara.
In later times, there is an explicit notion that dakshiNAmUrti abandoned his
silence and came down to earth as Sankara, in order to teach human beings.

But I
>think, it probably was to be expected. One does not find Hindu gods
>depicted
>as old men except in some specific episodes of stories as in

Except for brahmA, the pitAmaha, who is always an old man.

......
>As for his nature of teacher or creator, CT texts call him "kaTavuL" and
>even
>"ton2mutu kaTavuL". Moreover, we have the following tEvAram of campantar:

I may have overstated the case of dakshiNAmUrti as the guru and not the
creator. Siva-dakshiNAmUrti is indeed regarded as the creator, but  the
emphasis is more on the aspect as teacher.

Vidyasankar


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From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  1 16:06:22 1999
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 09:06:22 -0700
Subject: MaNavALamAmun2i
Message-ID: <161227049841.23782.10794697950117577446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- "N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> Thiru. Raa. Ragahvaiyangar (Sethusamasthana vidhvan
> along with his maternal cousin, Mu. Raghavaiyangar;
> RR gave many mss./corrections to UVS edition of CT;
> Sethupatis established the first research jl.
> for Tamil studies in 1900 with RR as its editor),
> in his CEtunATum tamizum, 1924, Madurai writes
> on p. 7:
> "ivaruTaiya (ie., Sethupathi's)  puNNiyanATu tamiziR
> periya JAn2ikaTkum iTamAya ten2patu, caivattiR
> ciRanta
> JAn2ayokiyAkiya srI tAyumAn2avar neTunATTaTaGkic
> camAtiyaTaintaruLiya mukavaiyum,
> vicatavAkcikAmaNiyAkiya
> vaiShNavAcArriyarAyt  teyvamum azaittup pEcum
> tUya JAn2amum  uTaiya maNavALa mAmun2ivar vaLarntu
> ciRanta
> *cikkaR kaTAramum* tan2pAR kONTu viLagkuvatan2AR
> palarum
> aRiyattakkatu".
>

This is of course rather interesting. I guess further
investigation may be required.

As you might be aware, Sri MaNavALa mAmunikaL's
father's village is tirukkurukUr i.e., the modern
ALvAr tirunagari while Sikkil kiDAram is his mother's
village. Now I can not recall where I read that the
latter village is just a few miles away from the
former one. It might be a good idea to check YatIndira
pravaNar pirabAvam. Unfortunately I don't have access
to it now, none of the libraries hereabouts seem to
have it.

Thanks and Warm Regards,

LS
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From bhebbar at EROLS.COM  Tue Jun  1 13:54:15 1999
From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 09:54:15 -0400
Subject: Buddhist revival movement in India
Message-ID: <161227049815.23782.16403238178757163727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yes  indeed  there  are  Christians  in  Israel  and  for  that  matter
Muslims  too;  but  their  mother  tongue  is  Arabic  not  Hebrew.  In
fact,  I  too  have  an  Arab-Christian  acquaintance  who  has  a
"Muslim"  name,  reads  his  Bible  in  Arabic  holds  an  Israeli
passport  and  sighs  "Allah"  when  things  are  not  "going  his
way".  BNH




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  1 17:02:54 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 10:02:54 -0700
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227049848.23782.6249938149947489747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> >As far as the pre-zankaran texts I have checked, there is no explicit
> >description of the age of the teacher vs. the age of the students.

> One should not discount the historical influence of Sankara himself as a
> young guru teaching old disciples. The Sanskrit texts that mention the
> relative ages of teacher and disciples are almost all post-Sankaran I think.
> That Sankara was equivalent to (if not an incarnation of) Siva is a notion
> found even in the works of his immediate disciples, padmapAda and sureSvara.
> In later times, there is an explicit notion that dakshiNAmUrti abandoned his
> silence and came down to earth as Sankara, in order to teach human beings.
>

An apt time to talk on Children teaching Elders(ref. Fosse and Magnone posts):

Child teaching Older person(s) is present in Tamil culture
from ancient times:

1) SubrahmaNya Murugan teaching his dad, Shiva.
2) St. Jnana Sambandhar, when beaten by his father
to tell who fed him with milk, showing Siva and Parvati
to him.
In 12th century, oTTakkUttar explicitly says Campantar
is Murukan's avatAram. In Saundaryalahari, Sankara praises
Jnana Sambandhar. Is the Sankaran hagiography indebted to
Sambandhar myth (A baby teaching older folks)?
3) KarikAl Cholan legend: He dresses as an old man
and dispenses justice in the court.

Also, look at Dakshinamurti, the young adult teaching Rishis,
with their old age indicated by long beards (like Brahma),

Regards.

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From bhebbar at EROLS.COM  Tue Jun  1 14:16:28 1999
From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 10:16:28 -0400
Subject: Chitrapur Saraswats
Message-ID: <161227049818.23782.14140218044249163134.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear  Mr. Sundaresan:

Thanks  for  the  info.  Also,  vide:  History  of  the  DakShiNAtya
SArasvats  by  V.N.Kudva  (SGS  Sabha,  T. Nagar,  Madras).

The  reason  I  said  that  was  until  recently  there  was  no
inter-marriage  between  SArasvats  and  Kavle  MaTha  GauDa-SArasvats
even  if  they  were  both  SmArtas.  Further,  in  all  GauDa-sArasvat
institutions  anywhere,  you  will  find  only  the  photos  of  3
abbotts  not  4.  The  3  are  the  current  heads  of  the  GokarNa,
KAshI  (both  MAdhva)  and  Kavle  (SmArta)  MaThas.  Hence  the  name
SAmyukta  GauDa-SArasvat  (SGS  SabhA).  The  ChitrApur  MaTha  and  its
head  are  conspiciously  missing.  Also,  mostly  ChitrApur  SArasvats
will  keep  village  names  as  their  surnames  e.g.  Girish  Karnad,
Prakash  Padukone  etc.  while  GauDa-SArasvats  will  have  their
usual  9  or  so  common  surnames  such  as  Baliga,  Prabhu,  Kamath,
Kini,  Nayak,  Shenoy  etc.

Further  to  show  that  common  maTha  origins  need  not  mean  same
community  is  the  fact  that  the  GauDa-SArasvat  MADhvas  until
1476  were  under  the  jurisdiction  of  the  PhalimAr  MaTha  of
UDupi  (A  TuLu  MAdhva  maTha  and  one  of  the  ASThamathas  of
UDupi).  RAmacandra  Tirtha,  the  10th  pontiff  of  the  PhalimAr
MaTha  decided  in  1476  that  the  GSBs  must  have  their  own  maTha
with  somebody  from  their  own  community  as  pontiff.  A  young  lad
was  chosen  (all  TuLu  and  KonkaNI  MAdhva  maThas  follow  the
bAlasannyAsa  system  of  ordination)  from  the  GSBs  and  ordained
in  Bhatkal  as  NArAyaNa  TIrtha  who  became  the  1st  pontiff  of
the  GokarNa  MaTha  which  today  is  based  in  PartagALi  (Goa)  and
governs  the  GS  MADhvas  in  ThAnA,  KolAbA  and  Ratnagiri  Distts
of  Maharashtra,  Goa  and  North  Kanara.

Vide  my:  On  the  Evolution  of  the  24  Apostolic  Institutions  of
the  MADhva-VaiShNava  SampradAya  (foreword  by  Dr. P.Nagaraja  Rao)
(Madras  1981)

Regards,
Hebbar




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Jun  1 14:48:04 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 10:48:04 -0400
Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227049822.23782.12090816923477272048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could the Hindiwallas on this list confirm or disconfirm my impression
that in Hindi (including Awadhi etc.) verse sometimes the final "a"
that would be present in the corresponding Sanskrit word but is lost
in ordinary speech is actually pronounced metris causa?  And is this
true of other "a"s lost between Sanskrit and Hindi?  Is this true in
some of the other modern Indo-Aryan languages If so, does that mean
that they have been there all along and are usually deleted but in
some deep sense retained?



Allen



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU  Tue Jun  1 14:54:20 1999
From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 10:54:20 -0400
Subject: cakravyuha in MahAbhArta
Message-ID: <161227049824.23782.11268892151502066936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Hindu epic MahAbhArta mentions of "cakravyuha" to trap enemy. Abhimanu died
in such a trap.  I wonder if there is an article about the design/nature of
cakravyuha.  Any help will be appreciated.
Alok Kumar
Department of Physics
State University of New York
Oswego, NY 13126.




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Tue Jun  1 05:30:40 1999
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 11:00:40 +0530
Subject: Resist!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990531204339.00898100@mailhost.jlc.net>
Message-ID: <161227049797.23782.1903787495215276389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 31 May 1999, George Thompson wrote:
> I'd even like to discuss, for example, the dating of the Rgveda, but I do
> not know how to do that without stepping into an enormous swamp of
> vituperation.

 The only solution is the excellent subject line: Resist ! Fight for you
theories, and crush your opponents ! You can't do that on a list where
everyone agrees with you. So indology is the best place to do so. If you
think that somebody is talking nonsense, the only solution is to smash
those theories.

> but for obvious reasons I do not want to argue with them.

 I do not think that by crushing one's opponents that `academic
credibility' is harmed. Rather, good polemics helps the standing of a
theory. It is a useful skill, and is becoming increasingly necessary.

 Indeed, the lack of resistance is what encourages the rise of nonsense.
A few years down the road, people will ask, howcome indologists in the
1990s could not refute theories like:

- " Bacchus and Dionysis, among the earliest invaders of Bharat, suffered
such a defeat that feelings of terror ran in Greece"

- " The theory that Rajputs are descendants of Sakas is a European
conspiracy "

- " India itself was the original home of the Aryans. All other theories
are Christian conspiracies."

- " The North Pole was in central Bihar "

- " Jesus Christ roamed the Himalayas and drew his ideas from Hinduism."

- " Homer adapted Valmiki's Ramayana into an epic called Iliad. "

- " The cow is the mother of us all, in whose body Gods are believed to
reside. "

- " Alexander's army was defeated at the hands of Puru and Alexander
himself had to seek forgiveness "

- " Qutb Minar was constructed by Samundragupta, and its original name was
Vushnu Sthambha "

- " When Peshava Madhav Rao came to the throne no one could raise his
eyes. The English, the French and the Portuguese shivered; they
presented gifts in homage in his court with their heads bowed. "

( source : http://www.secularindia.com/Inthenameofhistory.htm )

`Sitting quiet is what has allowed the weeds to grow to the extent that
they have. If they grow further, it shall be difficult to uproot them
later.' - Chinese Proverb

`Fight fire with fire' - Ancient Wisdom

Samar




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun  1 18:19:15 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 11:19:15 -0700
Subject: Comedy  of  Errors
In-Reply-To: <374FF6D3.E5A@erols.com>
Message-ID: <161227049850.23782.3660172221650058788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
> Dear  Mr. Varadarajan:
>
> Many  thanks  to  you  for  the  honorary  membership  bestowed  on  me
> into  your  community.

Dear Mr. Hebbar,

I apologize if I offended you. I assumed you were born a
Srivaishnava based on your last name (I know other
Srivaishnavas who also keep the name "Hebbar") and meant
it in good humor.  If this is incorrect, please do not
take offense.  I meant no disrespect by including you among
the "Iyengar clan", as I myself am a Srivaishnava.

I apologize to the rest of Indology for this distraction.

Mani




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun  1 09:32:09 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 11:32:09 +0200
Subject: New list / new rules (RE: Request for Info)
Message-ID: <161227049806.23782.2418509641278224866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> I would like to know if  *all*  the Indology scholars in this list find the
> input of the non-scholars an absolute waste. Has there been no benefit to
> your research?

I must say that I have seen a number of interesting mails from non-scholars. Not
necessarily because their views impress me as valid, although that is sometimes
the case, but often because they are representative of ways of thinking that I,
as a dabbler in Indology, ought to know about. The most problematic thing about
some of the contributors to the list is not their opinions, but their rhetoric.
Not to mention their sheer lack of elementary knowledge. Very few seem to take
up the challenge of actually learning about what Western Indologists do. I have
seen a couple of persons responding to that challenge, and I respect them for
that. It makes me much more tolerant of their views when they say things that I
disagree with. With some contributors, you have the feeling that an Indological
debate for them is nothing but a shouting match. And that creates the kind of
weariness in me that parents have at the end of the day when the kids have been
howling, kicking and screaming for the last 5 hours.

>
> I feel a healthy interaction between the scholars and the traditionalists
> would be beneficial to both, am I wrong?
>

No, you are NOT wrong. When I joined this list, I was very much in favour of
such a view. I have become somewhat disillusioned seeing the sort of rhetoric
that is being produced in some quarters. Like many professionals on this list, I
have begun to long for a quiet corner where it is possible to have an
intelligent discussion (and the occasional light relief) without a steady
downpour of vituperative drivel.

It takes about 10-12 years of hard work and little money to produce a good
Indologist or Indo-Europeanist. I think there is an element of idealism in this
which should command, if nothing else, normal politeness.

Best regards,

Lars Martin




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  1 18:57:29 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 11:57:29 -0700
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227049855.23782.17899438483702176498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan <smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>....In Saundaryalahari, Sankara praises
>Jnana Sambandhar.

draviDa-SiSu in this poem is a very ambiguous reference, not to mention the
doubt about Sankara's authorship of the saundaryalaharI.

>Is the Sankaran hagiography indebted to
>Sambandhar myth (A baby teaching older folks)?

Not in the written texts. Some south Indian orally transmitted legends about
Sankara are probably modeled upon the Sambandhar story.

Vidyasankar


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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  1 20:13:18 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 13:13:18 -0700
Subject: "500" guilds
Message-ID: <161227049863.23782.18411033502043188277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A possible starter:
Meera Abraham, Two medieval merchant guilds of South India,
Delhi: Manohar, 1988

--- Artur Karp <hart at POLBOX.COM> wrote:
> At 06:50 1.06.1999 -0700, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote:
>
> >In the Tamil inscriptions...>the merchant guilds of 500 from all(1000)
> directions are talked about.
>
> >The number five is important in those guilds, These merchants go
> >by the title, "Five Hunderd" ...
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------
>
> I would like to know more about those "500" guilds. Is the number purely
> symbolic, or does it mirror some organizational system?
>
> In Buddhist literature monks, merchants, travellers, bandits, etc. form
> typically 500 members groups.
>
> Any connection with merchants "500" guilds?
>
> Artur Karp
>

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From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT  Tue Jun  1 14:35:24 1999
From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 15:35:24 +0100
Subject: Resist!
Message-ID: <161227049820.23782.11457236443011984468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friends,

Dramatic as the subject line sounds, I think that what should be
resisted in the first place is the temptation to retreat to some
secluded spot where we may entertain our cherished thought
schemes without ever any hint of uncultivated prattle to disturb our
academic slumbers.

Let me remind you in this connection of other more strictly
regulated academic lists where the traffic is virtually non-existent. It
is true that a plethora of "unripe ideas" keep popping up in this list,
that could have been better spared for personal reflection; but I
doubt whether other lists are better off with a scanty trickle of
posts on academic positions, event announcements and the like. It
is also true that those with "ripe ideas" are not always readily
willing to share them freely with others; so let them speak who
care to.

I am afraid the kind of weariness Lars M. Fosse is referring to

> that parents have at the end of the day when the kids have been
> howling, kicking and screaming for the last 5 hours.

is typical of *old* people that do not know how to cope with new
challenges. Let us (Western) indologists not grow old, let us
always be "curious" as befits the Greeks that we forever are -- we
who are here in numbers to quest for ancient Indian wisdom, while I
suspect that not the hundredth part of Easterners is to be found on
lists discussing Plato, Dante or Shakespeare...

I admit, though, that vituperation from often less than informed
people is sometimes hard to stand, and I myself cannot help being
incensed when I read trenchant lines such as "he is wrong and so
are you" from people referring to themselves in the plural
majestatis, or when I find Western scholarship systematically
disparaged, or rather wished away with arbitrary and often
grotesque charges of ignorance or worse. But what can we do
about that (except, perhaps, on an individual basis)? (And consider
that Indians love eristic, as we did ourselves in some past era).

Also, consider that the so called "noise" generated by the list is an
imperfect metaphor: unlike acoustical noise, it cannot really
overwhelm the signal, that is always no more than a few keyboard
presses away...



----------------------
Paolo Magnone
p.magnone at agora.stm.it
Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies
http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm




From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM  Tue Jun  1 22:56:16 1999
From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 15:56:16 -0700
Subject: [Q]: Research on Marathas in TN
Message-ID: <161227049868.23782.10076004770834618580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nikhil Rao wrote:

> The following reference will have some of the information that you require
> It has biographies of some illustrious maharashtrians from Thanjavur,
> including those of Tiruvidaimarudur Sakharama Rao, gottuvadya player and
> guru of Semmangudi, Narasimhappa a mridamgam vidwan from a Maratha family.

That should be Narayanaswami Appa,  if I am not mistaken... he is credited with
a lot of the left-hand technique like gumki etc which is used in Carnatic
mrdangam playing.

-Srini.




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun  1 14:55:13 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 16:55:13 +0200
Subject: Resist!
Message-ID: <161227049827.23782.8060939367683767212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Paolo Magnone wrote:

>
> I am afraid the kind of weariness Lars M. Fosse is referring to
>
> > that parents have at the end of the day when the kids have been
> > howling, kicking and screaming for the last 5 hours.
>
> is typical of *old* people that do not know how to cope with new
> challenges.

Oh dear! By "old people" you probably mean grandparents. I was rather
thinking of young people in their twenties. Haven't you seen them: no sleep
for two nights, pale and haggard as they try to be nice to children
screaming blue murder and making all sorts of impossible demands? Not like
grandparents, who are always patient and benign, because they know they can
drop the little buggers in their parents' arms as soon as they get to be
completely intolerable. Paolo, you must be *very* young.

And by the way, I have been "coping" for about two years now, I have spent
far more time on debating with people I disagree with than most others on
the list, and I am still coping, thank you. But I admit to not having the
stamina of the very young any more, having almost reached the hoary age of
50.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  2 00:00:20 1999
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 17:00:20 -0700
Subject: [Q]: Research on Marathas in TN
Message-ID: <161227049870.23782.16956109436047862292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Narayanaswami Appa is correct!. There would be more references in the
Saraswati Mahal library. Is there anyway to contact them by email ?.
The Thanjavur Deshasthas today are mostly clueless about the details
about their migration to TN, the most common answer is that they
migrated during the times of Shivaji/Sambhaji etc. Some of the families
have preserved their adNAvs (surnames), while some of these indicate
the place e.g, Patankar, Kolhapurkar others indicate links to surnames
current in Maharashtra today
e.g, Dole, Kshirsagar, Pingale. Also, the smarthas have preserved their
original family names better than the madhvas!. Was the advaitin Nagoji
Bhatta one amongst the deshasthas ?
--- Srini Pichumani <srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM> wrote:
> Nikhil Rao wrote:
>
> > The following reference will have some of the
> information that you require
> > It has biographies of some illustrious
> maharashtrians from Thanjavur,
> > including those of Tiruvidaimarudur Sakharama Rao,
> gottuvadya player and
> > guru of Semmangudi, Narasimhappa a mridamgam
> vidwan from a Maratha family.
>
> That should be Narayanaswami Appa,  if I am not
> mistaken... he is credited with
> a lot of the left-hand technique like gumki etc
> which is used in Carnatic
> mrdangam playing.
>
> -Srini.
>

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Tue Jun  1 15:05:55 1999
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 17:05:55 +0200
Subject: Resist!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990531204339.00898100@mailhost.jlc.net>
Message-ID: <161227049832.23782.4222150998643235604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

I agree with Harry Falk and George Thompson.

To draw a hard line between professional and non-professional scholars
is (especially in the case of Indology!!!) very problematic.
For many reasons, coexistence is structural.
There are so many possible points of view for philology, etc.....

I have often felt the problem was not a problem of the quality
of postings but of the QUANTITY.

I am absolutely sure some LISTSERV wizard
is holding the solution to INDOLOGY's woes.

I can't imagine why it would not be possible
to program LISTSERV in such a way that it will
REFUSE TO ACCEPT MORE THAN N POSTS FROM ONE SINGLE ACCOUNT
FOR A PERIOD OF ONE MONTH.

I would choose N=5 (or N=3  ???)
 (with 600 members, we have a maximum of 3000 posts a month :-))
  which is largely enough ...)   (or 1800 posts)

Who needs to post more than 5 times a month???

The LISTSERV programming wizard would insert a DAEMON
that would answer, when message Number 6 comes:
"SORRY! YOUR CREDIT FOR THIS MONTH HAS EXPIRED!
 TRY NEXT MONTH!"

All Dominik has to do is to find a wizard and a daemon!!!

Regards to everybody! Long live INDOLOGY!

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (PARIS)
 

A 20:43 31/05/99 -0400, vous avez ?crit :
>Dear List,
>
>In spite of the plaintive tone of my previous post, I agree with all of
>Harry Falk's remarks, including the final ones below. I have benefitted a
>great deal from being a member of this list, and I intend to continue to
>support it.
>
>..................
>
>I would like to co-exist on this list with Vaidikas and other
>traditionalists, but for obvious reasons I do not want to argue with them.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>George Thompson
>
>At 12:31 AM 6/1/1999 +0200, you wrote:
>
>[much deleted]
>
>>emails. We should find a way to survive the present conditions. The idea
>to have
>>this
>>list was great and it still deserves to be supported.
>>Harry Falk
>>
>>
>




From LD5 at SOAS.AC.UK  Tue Jun  1 17:28:11 1999
From: LD5 at SOAS.AC.UK (Lalita du Perron)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 17:28:11 +0000
Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227049844.23782.12536488059021919859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As a Hindiwallah (or actually -vali) I can confirm that in most Hindi
verse that I'm aware of the final 'a' (which can be syllable-final as
well as word-final) is pronounced - usually, as Allen Thrasher suggests,
metris causa, but it also occurs in songs where the reason is rhythmic
rather than metric.

Lalita du Perron
Dept of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia
SOAS
University of London




From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT  Tue Jun  1 16:33:55 1999
From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 17:33:55 +0100
Subject: Resist!
In-Reply-To: <3753F450.2E14798D@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227049846.23782.2635825738685707491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In reply to Lars Martin Fosse's message of 1 Jun 99, 16:55:


Dear Lars,

I hope you (or anybody else, for that matter) did not take offence at
my remark on "old" people. Nothing personal was intended, all the
more as I perfectly know you "cope", having been on this list for
some years now, and enjoyed many of your former contributions.

I was just playing with your words to bring home the idea that,
rather than falling back on the somewhat dispiriting role of parents
or grandparents, we should strive to continue as children, proudly
owning the *blame* that the ancient oriental wise men imputed to
Solon: "O SolOn, SolOn, HellEnes aei paides este...".

(Need it be said: I am not talking against parents or grandparents :-)


Best wishes,



----------------------------
Paolo Magnone
Catholic University of Milan
pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it
Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies
http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm

================================================
> > Paolo Magnone wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I am afraid the kind of weariness Lars M. Fosse is referring to
> >
> > > that parents have at the end of the day when the kids have been
> > > howling, kicking and screaming for the last 5 hours.
> >
> > is typical of *old* people that do not know how to cope with new
> > challenges.
>
>
> Oh dear! By "old people" you probably mean grandparents. I was rather
> thinking of young people in their twenties. Haven't you seen them: no
> sleep for two nights, pale and haggard as they try to be nice to children
> screaming blue murder and making all sorts of impossible demands? Not like
> grandparents, who are always patient and benign, because they know they
> can drop the little buggers in their parents' arms as soon as they get to
> be completely intolerable. Paolo, you must be *very* young.
>
>
> And by the way, I have been "coping" for about two years now, I have spent
> far more time on debating with people I disagree with than most others on
> the list, and I am still coping, thank you. But I admit to not having the
> stamina of the very young any more, having almost reached the hoary age of
> 50.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Lars Martin Fosse



----------------------
Paolo Magnone
p.magnone at agora.stm.it




From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  2 01:01:48 1999
From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 18:01:48 -0700
Subject: Resist!
Message-ID: <161227049872.23782.7199748946568063647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>To draw a hard line between professional and non-professional scholars is
>(especially in the case of Indology!!!) very problematic.
>For many reasons, coexistence is structural.
>There are so many possible points of view for philology, etc.....

>I have often felt the problem was not a problem of the quality
>of postings but of the QUANTITY.

I do not understand: If a sir/madame do not have the time,
Delete button's use is advocated. Instituting a quota
system on quality postings will only hinder the growth
of our understanding of Old India.

Prasad



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun  1 16:02:16 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 18:02:16 +0200
Subject: Resist!
Message-ID: <161227049837.23782.4595316360704747322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N. Ganesan" wrote:

> Before we Indians wear the hats of the Hindu(tva) version
> of bible preachers on Sunday TV and start our ridicules
> and rhetorics when we hear theories like IVC is most likely
> Dravidian with Sanskrit playing an insignificant role or that RV
> is likely to date from (say) 1200 BCE, readings like
> a) O. Chadwick, The secularization of the European mind
> in the 19th century and b) Voltaire's Bastards, etc.,
> will be a help.
>
> I think renaissance, reformation, enlightenment of
> Hinduism has a long way to go.

I feel like tagging along here. Secularisation is certainly a very
important word here, because debating with die-hard Christians in my own
country is not much different from debating with the Hindutva crowd. As
far as I can see, there are two things we can do: 1) enligheten each
other about our various views in a civilized manner, and 2) agree to
disagree. A scholarly discussion is NOT a public political meeting. I
found Shrisha Rao's last posting valuable because it did precisely what
it should do: It told me WHY he disagrees, and WHAT he believes is
correct. I do not have to agree with him to appreciate that. It is much
of the other stuff I can do without. I have read enough Hindutva prose
to get weary when I for the umpteenth time am told that Western
Indologists are ignoramuses, have nasty political agendas and are
racists to boot. There is a serious misrepresentation of Western
Indology in some quarters that partly seems to be due to ignorance, but
sadly also often to be wilful attempts at disqualifying Western scholars
generally in moral terms, so that one can dispense with the whole
debate.

Lars Martin Fosse




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun  2 02:01:58 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 19:01:58 -0700
Subject: Resist!
In-Reply-To: <19990602010149.31608.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227049874.23782.7285561683744570626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> I do not understand: If a sir/madame do not have the time,
> Delete button's use is advocated.

This displays a lack of understanding of how too much email
can deluge a person. I frequently ignore *all* Indology email
because there is simply too much of it; it takes too long
to separate the signal from the noise.  When I first joined
many years back, I would respect the fact that this is a group
for professional academics who are full-time Indologists. I
would contribute a comment only when it involved my field of
expertise, and sit back most of the time. I now see that there
are lot of people, many of them Internet newcomers, who feel
free to post whatever and whenever they feel like, without
consideration for the charter of the list, and without bothering
to do some basic reading of easily available extant research
before posting a query.  Half-baked theories and questions are
now the norm.

Others post many, many messages a day, most of them useless,
despite Dominik's past pleas to do just the opposite. (Just take
a look at the last month's archives and you'll see the perpetrators).
Most of these people are less interested in serious dialogue than
perpetuating their pet philosophy/philosopher/socio-linguistic
community.

Unfortunately, for a list such as Indology to be productive,
its users must practice self-control. This is a hard to find
commodity these days.

Mani




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  2 02:35:12 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 19:35:12 -0700
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227049879.23782.17424462694934779589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

MadhurAja Yogin, disciple of Abhinavagupta, compares his Guru
to DakshiNaamuurti. In this dhyAnaslokam, Dakshinamurti's
relations to Pandya country  are referred.

M. Yogin prays:
"May the glorious god DakSiNAmUrti (Abhinavagupta), who is an
incarnation of 'Siva protect us! Out of his deep compassion
he has taken a new bodily form and come to Kashmir. He sits in
the middle of a garden of grapes, inside a pavillion made of crystal
and filled with beautiful *paintings*. The room smells wonderful
because of flower garlands, incense-sticks and (oil)-lamps.Its walls
are smeared with *sandal-paste* and other such things. The room
is constantly resounding with musical instruments, with songs
and with dancing. There are crowds of Yoginis and realized beings,
*siddhas* with magic powers. Its is equipped with a golden seat
from which *pearls* are hanging. ..."
p. 46, P. E. Muller-Ortega, The triadic heart of 'Siva: Kaula
tantricism in the Non-Dual Shaivism of Kashmir, SUNY.

In the above poem, note the presence of 1) sandal-paste
2) pearls 3) Hall of Paintings and 4) Siddhas:
1) sandal-past is a special product of Malaya mountain
in Pandya country
2) pearls, often Sanskrit texts talk of pearl production
in Pandya country
3) a tropical garden and a pavillion of paintings.
Among Nataraja's five dancing halls, Malaya (Potiyil)
has citra-sabhA. Even today there is a "Hall of Paintings".
(with Nayak era paintings, painted on earlier Pandya ones).
4)Siddhas - Potiyil is a special dwelling place of Siddhas.
So, M. Yogin probably is aware that Dakshinamurti form
of 'Siva comes from the South. And, he gives recognition to the
Pandya realm while describing Daxinamurti.

Dakshinamurti cult originating in Potiyil (Malaya) mountain
is described in a Classical Tamil text (see below).
Buddhists called this Southern God as Avalokitezvara of Potalaka.
Both Hsuan Tsang and Chih Sheng in 7th century CE identify
Potalaka as Potiyil in the Malaya country. Also, a special
form of Avalokita in rAjalIlAsana is found in Tamil Nadu
(and in Sri Lanka, South East Asia and China).
The expansion of rAjalIlAsana avalokitas by sea from Tamil lands
assumes greater significance  when we consider the fact that
the center for Buddhism is Bihar/Bengal and not the South.
DakshinamUrti images are also found in rAjalIlaasana posture
from Tamil Nadu. The competition/accomodation between Dakshinamurti
and Avalokitezvara cults should have happened in the Pandya country.
In return, original forms of avalokita residing in Mt. Potalaka
come from South India.

  Kashmir Shaivism which is somewhat influenced by
Buddhism, makes use of the imagery of Dakshinamurti of
Potiyil/Malaya. In a similar vein, Sankara's advaita school, often
said to be prchanna bauddhas by rivals, also employs
Dakshinamurti icon. Probably because Shaivaites saw in Dakshinamurti
an ability to counter his Buddhist alter ego, Avalokita.
So, Shaivaites recruited Dakshinamurti especially when they
were in close proximity with Buddhism.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


--------------------------------------------------------
On Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:31:43 EST, S. Palaniappan wrote:

In a message dated 1/21/99 10:55:17 AM Central Standard Time,
naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:
 > CilappatikAram (ca. 400 AD) is the first Indian text mentioning
 >  Dakshinamurthy.

This is not correct. If dakSiNAmUrti as one sitting under a banyan
tree is the one being referred to, CT texts mention it in many places
as Dr. N. Ganesan has noted in an earlier posting. If it is the
"southern" aspect of dakSiNAmUrti is what is being specifically
referred to, then the earliest reference is in the CT text,
maturaikkAJci, as given in the following lines.

ten2n2avan2 peyariya tun2 aru tuppin2
tol mutu kaTavuL pin2n2ar mEya
varai tAz aruvi poruppin2 poruna             (maturaikkAJci 40-42)

Here the Pandiyan king is praised as the "warrior who posseses the
mountain with cascading waterfalls where reside the
disciples/followers of the ancient god with unapproachable prowess
who has the same name as the Southern One".

The mountain here refers to "potiyil' even though it is not explicitly
named here. This will become obvious when we compare these lines with
the following lines from cilappatikAram

maRai mutu mutalvan2 pin2n2ar mEya
poRai uyar potiyil poruppan2 ?.         (cil.12.24.1-2)

Translation: "the one possessing the "potiyil" mountain where the
followers of the ancient first one of the vedas live"

The lines from maturaikkAJci have not been properly understood till
now. Old commentators such as naccin2Arkkin2iyar as well as modern
commentators such as perumazaippulavar have been influenced so much
by the Agastya myth that they have overlooked a basic grammatical flaw
in their interpretation. The lines actually talk about multiple
followers and not a single person. For instance if a single person
were to be referred to, we should have maRai mutu mutalvan2
pin2n2an2/pin2n2On2. The use of honorific singular is not likely given
the style of CT poems or the use of singular for the god ziva
himself .
--------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________________________
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From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun  1 18:22:43 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 20:22:43 +0200
Subject: Resist!
Message-ID: <161227049852.23782.7298230707016418704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
> I hope you (or anybody else, for that matter) did not take offence at
> my remark on "old" people. Nothing personal was intended, all the
> more as I perfectly know you "cope", having been on this list for
> some years now, and enjoyed many of your former contributions.
>
> I was just playing with your words to bring home the idea that,
> rather than falling back on the somewhat dispiriting role of parents
> or grandparents, we should strive to continue as children, proudly
> owning the *blame* that the ancient oriental wise men imputed to
> Solon: "O SolOn, SolOn, HellEnes aei paides este...".
>
> (Need it be said: I am not talking against parents or grandparents :-)
>

I am indeed glad to hear that! I would of course like to be a child again,
growing old is a bitch, but maybe the ancient Greeks meant that we should be
children in the spirit, even if our bodies crumble in front of the mirror. I'll
try to act upon that.

Best regards,
Lars Martin




From hart at POLBOX.COM  Tue Jun  1 19:13:20 1999
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 21:13:20 +0200
Subject: "500" guilds
In-Reply-To: <19990601135023.11111.rocketmail@send304.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <161227049857.23782.12111126343275529965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 06:50 1.06.1999 -0700, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote:

>In the Tamil inscriptions...>the merchant guilds of 500 from all(1000)
directions are talked about.

>The number five is important in those guilds, These merchants go
>by the title, "Five Hunderd" ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------

I would like to know more about those "500" guilds. Is the number purely
symbolic, or does it mirror some organizational system?

In Buddhist literature monks, merchants, travellers, bandits, etc. form
typically 500 members groups.

Any connection with merchants "500" guilds?

Artur Karp




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Tue Jun  1 21:31:38 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 21:31:38 +0000
Subject: New list / new rules (RE: Request for Info)
Message-ID: <161227049839.23782.12160110153884265011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Daniel Baum <dbaum at ISDN.NET.IL> wrote: 
[snip] To join, send a message to indo_iranian-subscribe at egroups.com, or 
> mail me personally and I will subscribe you.> > The list is not currently
moderated... 

Thanks; I would like to join the list. 

For those who feel constrained by the 2k space offered on mailing list to 
debate fully, I have set up a complementary, unmoderated, virtually unlimited
web space at http://sarasvati.listbot.com The list has 43 current members. 

Each posting to this new list on any academic topic related to ancient indian
studies can be upto 100k size with facilities to include attachments thru
email. Since this is also an archive list, cross-postings to other lists can
be minimized with just an URL reference to the listbot. 

Regards, 
Dr. S. Kalyanaraman 



____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From nybia at TIN.IT  Tue Jun  1 19:53:57 1999
From: nybia at TIN.IT (Emiliano Bianchi)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 21:53:57 +0200
Subject: tithi
Message-ID: <161227049860.23782.13859536019432017471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Sirs,
 
can anyone please give me some information about the ancient lunar day (tithi) ?
At the moment,  I found on the web the following informations:


1) tithi is a lunar day. A tithi is shorter than a solar day. There are
30 tithis in a lunar month; fifteen during the bright half known as shukla
paksha and fifteen during the dark half known as krishna paksha.

2) Different kinds of Tithis:
Nanda        the 1st, 6th and 11 th lunar days 
Bhadra       the 2nd, 7th and 1 2th lunar days
Jaya            the 3rd, 8th and 1 3th lunar days
Riktha         the 4th, 9th and 14th lunar days
Poorna       the 5th, 10th and 15th lunar days

3) Lunations are divided into 30 tithis, or lunar days. 
Each tithi is defined by the time required for the longitude of the Moon to increase by 12o over the longitude of the Sun. 
Thus the length of a tithi may vary from about 20 hours to nearly 27 hours. 
During the waxing phases, tithis are counted from 1 to 15 with the designation Sukla. Tithis for the waning phases are designated Krsna and are again counted from 1 to 15. Each day is assigned the number of the tithi in effect at sunrise. 
Occasionally a short tithi will begin after sunrise and be completed before the next sunrise. 
Similarly a long tithi may span two sunrises. 
In the former case, a number is omitted from the day count. 
In the latter, a day number is carried over to a second day.

I would like to know the duration (in hours) of the various tithis
 
Thanks in advance
 
Emiliano Bianchi
nybia at tin.it 


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From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun  2 03:20:52 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 22:20:52 -0500
Subject: Gentoo studies (details on SR)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905312126530.26760-100000@zeus.ia.net>
Message-ID: <161227049877.23782.10678258561634868433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Since I am leaving town (for quite a while) a brief reply, or if you like,
a parting shot:

1. Shrisha Rao has treated us, after laboring through the weekend,  to a 11
K, not always correct description of philological procedure, but he has not
*implemented* its principles in his discussion of  RV  nitya.

2. He has *not* checked the 36-odd occurences of nitya in the Rgveda and he
has not shown that it does mean 'eternal', in all cases.  Proof is lacking
so far.

3. He has not even *translated* the verse snippet `vAchA virUpa nityayA'
(RV 8.75.6)
 (not to speak of the  whole Rc!!), so that his opinion, e.g. of virUpa,
remains totally opaque.

Without translation (or  detailed Skt. commentary)  no clear understanding.

Otherwise, one can proceed, as for example S.P.Gupta has done (The
Indus-Sarasvati Civilization, Delhi 1996), and print pages and pages
(p.164-174) of RV quotations  without translation and thus "prove" anything
one wants;

[[in SPG's case:  Vedic  international sea trade, industry, town
civilization, etc:
<< pp.164 ff. headings:  : mineral resources of the Vedic merchants, trade
and commerce, navigation, islands and bases in islands, references of
industry, [and --was there a need? --] horses in the Vedas [here only 10
qotes!]  >> ]]


4. All other points have been left *unsanwered* by SR.  Even according to
his own ideal of 'logical' vivADa, rather unsatisfactory.

Final Grade: "topic not dealt with in any detail",  therefore "F" , or
equivalent low percentage (in the Indian system).


At 22:37 -0500 5/31/99, Shrisha Rao wrote:

[...all deleted, as not relevant to topic of discussion of meaning of the
verse in question...]

>Lastly, `vAchA virUpa nityayA' is not the only Vedic statement of
>relevance in this context; others have been cited as well where the
>meaning of `nitya' is not even called into question because it is not
>used.  It is obvious to me that the rejection of the notion that the
>concept of apaurushheyatva is of Vedic origin, is not based on deep
>understanding of the concept itself, nor of the Vedas, but is only an ad
>hoc back-formation of arguments intended to justify a preconception.
>[...]

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  1 21:41:10 1999
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 22:41:10 +0100
Subject: [Q]: Research on Marathas in TN
Message-ID: <161227049865.23782.16252816148577326880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following reference will have some of the information that you require
It has biographies of some illustrious maharashtrians from Thanjavur,
including those of Tiruvidaimarudur Sakharama Rao, gottuvadya player and
guru of Semmangudi, Narasimhappa a mridamgam vidwan from a Maratha family.
CALL NUMBER:
                 DS432.M2 S66
          TITLE:
                 South Indian Maharashtrians : cultural and economic studies
/ issued by t
he Mahratta Education Fund, Madras as its
                 silver jubilee souvenir.
     PUBLISHED:
                 Madras : The Fund, 1937.
  DESCRIPTION:
                 vi, 167, 41 p., [27] leaves of plates : ill. ; 26 cm.
       SUBJECT:
                 Maratha (Indic people)
       SUBJECT:
                 Maratha (Indic people)--Biography.
       SUBJECT:
                 India, South--Biography.
           NOTE:
                 "Maharashtrian residents of Madras": p. [1]-41 (2d group)
 LCCN NUMBER:
                 78-912439 r902

In  the group of Thanjavur Maharashtrians, there are also marathas in
addition to the brahmins. This migration started during Shahaji's time
initially may be to the mysore bangalore area and then shifted to Thanjavur
when Venkoji took over Thanjavur from the Nayak rulers. Why there was
migration of deshastha brahmins only and not chitapavanas or karhades has
been a puzzle to me perhaps during the early years of Shahaji/Venkoji's rule
the chitapavanas may not have yet migrated to the deccan area from konkan.
Atleast one of the Mathas established by Samarth Ramdas is still in
existence in Thanjavur.

Nikhil





On Mon, 31 May 1999 18:13:45 +1700, Bal Prasad <bprasad at NETCOM.COM> wrote:

>I am trying to get information regarding the group of Maharashtrians
>who went to Tamil Nadu during the Peshwa era and who are often referred
>to as TDB (Thanjavur Deshasta Brahmins). A large number of them settled
>around Thanjavur and they founded the Sarasvati Mahal library there. I
>have been told that the migration happened during the reign of Kings
>Shivaji and Sambhaji. I would like to know if anything has been
>published about them.
>
>TIA,
>Prasad




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  2 12:21:08 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 05:21:08 -0700
Subject: Pronunciation of word final
Message-ID: <161227049887.23782.2148529783281859369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yes. And in fact, a long 'a' is sometimes introduced metri causa, especially
in case of meters like 'Chaupai.' This meter requires 2 'Deergha' wovels at
the end of each 'carana.'

An example of Chaupai's in Awadhi is of course the Ramacaritamanasa. Some
relevant examples:

1. Agey chaley bahuri raghurAyA
2. jinha key sravana samudra samAnA| KathA tumhAri subhaga sari nAnA||

TX

Vishal

----Original Message Follows----
From: Allen W Thrasher <athr at LOC.GOV>
Subject: Pronunciation of word final "a" in Sanskrit
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:48:04 -0400

Could the Hindiwallas on this list confirm or disconfirm my impression
that in Hindi (including Awadhi etc.) verse sometimes the final "a"
that would be present in the corresponding Sanskrit word but is lost
in ordinary speech is actually pronounced metris causa?  And is this
true of other "a"s lost between Sanskrit and Hindi?  Is this true in
some of the other modern Indo-Aryan languages If so, does that mean
that they have been there all along and are usually deleted but in
some deep sense retained?



Allen



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.


_______________________________________________________________
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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  2 12:22:50 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 05:22:50 -0700
Subject: Original sanskrit names
Message-ID: <161227049889.23782.9507471950357573237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The tadbhava form of 'Lakshana' used in several dialects in N. India
(including Khari Boli as well as Punjabi) commonly is Lachhana. (Recall the
old Hindi movies where the vamp calls her poor Daughter in Law -
'Kulacchani')

On your query on Kanpur, I donot know the answer.

Regards

Vishal


----Original Message Follows----
From: Balaji Hebbar <bhebbar at EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Re : Original Sanskrit Names
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 21:43:31 -0400

I  will  not  dispute  what  you  have  said.  It  indeed  makes  sense.
But  we  must  remember  that  the  PAli  word  for  the  Sanskrit
"lakShaNa"  is  "lakkhana"  as  in  "tilakkana"  for  "trilaShaNa"  (the
3  marks  of  "existence")  that  the  Buddha  talked  about.  From  my
youth  I  have  only  heard  it  as  being  "LakShaNapuri".  Anyway,  I
am  afterall  from  the  South  and  I  am  inclined  to  think  that
you  know  better  as  you  are  from  the  North.  Perhaps,  both
"lakShmaNa"  and  "lakShaNa"  are  possible.

Regards,
B.N.Hebbar


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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  2 12:24:04 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 05:24:04 -0700
Subject: Artur Karp--Gurudatta Vidyarthi
Message-ID: <161227049892.23782.1366142478370920670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Karp,

I am really amazed that you have access to such a rare book by Gurudatta
Vidyarthi. The untenable idea that all modern scientific discoveries are
mentioned in the Vedas continues to this day (albeit in a much toned down
manner) in Arya Samaj literature. The numerous interpretions of Agni, Vayu
etc.  (which change from Sukta to Sukta) without any basis lead to Dayananda
Saraswati's Vedabhasya become a sectarian work (what else could have
happened).

To sidetrack, 'Gurudatta Vidyarthi' is a hallowed name in Arya Samaj
history. It is said that he was an M.A. (A great achievement in those days)
and remained skeptical about the existence of God till he witnessed the
death of Svami Dayanand. The fortitude/behavior exhibited by the Svami at
his death hour is said to have converted him to a staunch follower of the
Arya Samaj and he wrote a number of works in the formative years of the
Samaj to help it grow. I am not sure but he was probably murdered by a
Muslim (because he wrote a book showing how violence was used by Prophet
Muhammad and his followers to spread Islam).

Regards

Vishal

----Original Message Follows----
From: Artur Karp <hart at POLBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Gentoo studies (details on SR)
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:28:51 +0200


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From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  2 05:39:00 1999
From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 06:39:00 +0100
Subject: cakravyuha in MahAbhArta
In-Reply-To: <3753F41C.2C1FEBFD@oswego.edu>
Message-ID: <161227049881.23782.7251589357707248810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Date sent:              Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:54:20 -0400
Send reply to:          Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From:                   Alok Kumar <kumar at OSWEGO.EDU>
Subject:                Re: cakravyuha in MahAbhArta
To:                     INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

> The Hindu epic MahAbhArta mentions of "cakravyuha" to trap enemy. Abhimanu died
> in such a trap.  I wonder if there is an article about the design/nature of
> cakravyuha.  Any help will be appreciated.
> Alok Kumar
> Department of Physics
> State University of New York
> Oswego, NY 13126.

Reply/2-6-99
I remember some 'maze'like figure I was taught in my childhood as
chakravyUha formation of army referred to in the MahAbhArata. I
will airmail it to you.
K S Arjunwadkar <arjunwadkar at mcmail.com>




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  2 13:53:35 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 06:53:35 -0700
Subject: Sundarapandya's Varttika
Message-ID: <161227049894.23782.15612492769846956121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. N. Chandran et al:

Here is all the information I could gather on Sundara Pandya. If you wish, I
can send it to you as a formatted file. References are at the end.
______________

Acharya Sundarapandya

His Life and Age:
Nothing positive is known about Sundara Pandya except that he was a
predecessor of Bhatta Kumarila. Kuppusvami has attempted to equate Sundara
Pandya with a king of the Pandya dynasty but the reasons adduced by him are
not very convincing (Ref. 94). Pandey states that Sundara Pandya was
anterior to Bhartrmitra but gives no reason for the same (Ref. 93). In
Sabara Bhasya, we find numerous metrical quotations (ref. 92) and it is not
clear where they are cited from. Some of them are stated to be from the
Vrttikaragrantha of Bhagavan Upavarsa. Are the rest from the pen of
Sundarapandya?
An inscription dated 750 C.E. names one Sundarapandya as a scholar
proficient in all Sastras and a remote ancestor of  the Pandyan King
Arikesarin (Ref. 114, pg. xiv). In fact, Sundarapandya might have been
anterior to Arikesarin by several centuries (Ref. 115)

Works:
1. Varttika on Mimamsa Sastra in 20 chapters: From the citations below, it
will be clear that Sundara Pandya probably composed a Varttika on the Purva
and Uttara Mimamsas. The fact that he has been quoted reverentially by
Bhatta Kumarila as well as by Samkara implies that his metrical work was
held in great esteem by Mimamsakas as well as by Vedantins and that he was
long anterior to Kumarila.
2. Nitidvisastika: This is a famous collection of 120 beautiful maxims on
morality attributed to Sundarapandya. The verses have been quoted by many
Sanskrit authors in later times, attesting to the popularity of the work.
Several other verses attributed to Sundarapandya occur in literature but are
not found in this text. A critical edition of the work was published
recently (Ref. 114). In the learned introduction, Dr. Jayasree, the editior
and translator of the text demonstrates that there is nothing in the work
that suggests that its author and the famous author of the work on Mimamsa
were different personalities. However, no definite information is available
on the work about the age of Sundarapandya. The work is alternately called
'Sundarapandyasataka' and 'Aryavali' also in manuscripts probably because
all the verses are in the Arya meter. The editor has also pointed out
numerous similiarities between this work and some verses of Kalidasa and
those occuring in the Tamil classic Tirukkural. The very first verse
eulogizes Sundarapandya as "Sri Sundarapandya, well versed in the meaning of
words enshrined in the Vedas and canonical texts, has composed this Arya
which very well develops the intellect of the listerners." This verse
clearly hints at his mastery over the Mimamsa and points to his vast
scholarship.
3. Kriyanighantu (?): In his commentary 'Puruskara' on the Sanskrit
grammatical work 'Daiva',  Krsnalilasukamuni (1250 C.E.) quotes a line from
the 'Kriyanighantu' of Sundarapandya. It is uncertain if the two
Sundarapandyas are identical

Citations from his works and his views:

A. Brahma Sutra Bhasya of Samkara
1. At the end of his Adhyasa Bhasya, Samkara says: "In accordance with this,
they (i.e. men knowing Brahman) have made the following declaration-
'When there has arisen (in a man's mind) the knowledge, "I am that which is,
Brahman is my self," and when, owing to the sublation of the conceptions of
body, relatives, and the like, the (imagination of) the figurative and the
false Self has come to an end; how should then the effect (of that wrong
imagination) exist any longer?
As long as the knowledge of the Self, which scripture tells us to search
after, has not arisen, so long the Self is knowing subject; but that same
subject is that which is searched after, viz. (the highest self) free from
all evil and blemish.
Just as the idea of the Self being the body is assumed to be valid (in
ordinary life), so all ordinary sources of knowledge (perception and the
like) are valid only until the one Self is ascertained."
Atmasvarupa, who was a disciple of Narasimhasvarupa and wrote a commentary
called Prabodhaparisodhini on Padmapada's Pancapadika, states in this work
that these three verses are the composition of Acarya Sundara Pandya (Ref.
94).
B. Madhavamantrin's Tatparyadipika- A commentary on Sutasamhita (Ref. 94):
This work cites the third of the three verses cited by Samkara and says that
the verse is from the Varttika composed by Acarya Sundara Pandya.
C. In Amalananda's Vedantakalpataru- a commentary on Bhamati 3.3.25:
Here, the following three verses are quoted as from the pen of Sundara
Pandya. The translation if these verses (Ref. 93) is as follows: "When two
persons try to climb up a ladder to obtain a fruit which is attained by
getting on a ladder only, then if their speed is equal and there is no
obstacle on their way, then out of the two rivals the fruit is obtained by
him who ocuppies the ladder first and the other person who starts the ladder
later climbs in vain to get at the fruit."
D. In Tantravarttika of Bhatta Kumarila:
1. Kumarila quotes the three verses quoted by Amalananda followed by two
other verses in the Balabaladhikarana (Ref. 94). The commentator of
Tatravarttika Somesvara Bhatta says in his Nyayasudha that these five verses
are from an old Acarya. Since the first three verses are due to Sundara
Pandya, we might surmise the same regarding the last two also. Also, it
appears then that Sundara Pandya was long anterior to Kumarila Bhatta.The
last two verses are translated as (Ref. 93)- " In the forgoing example, the
second person, although having the capacity which could have been
materialized under different circumstances, yet when there is competition,
his inactivity is descipable. Sometimes the weak attain to the sky high
positions and the strength of their stronger rivals is completely
destroyed."
2. Later, in the same work, Kumarila quotes two other verses which are again
called the composition of 'an old teacher' by his commentator Somesvara
Bhatta. We might assume that Sundara Pandya was again the author of these
verses. The translation of these verses as given by Pandey (Ref. 93) is-
"Three parts of the Veda that are Pramana i.e., the parts that lay down
injuctions and the how and why of an action that is to be performed. The
sprout etc. that are mentioned in the Vedas are more than that. The
existence that is useless for Dharma is meaningless. Therefore, the sprout
etc. are meaningless entities. The relation of End and Means is invariably
dependent on Bhavana. Theefore without the conception of Bhavana, there can
be no conception of the relation between the End and the Means."
E. In Samkara's Commentary on Gita 13.13 (Ref. 93)
Sri Samkaracarya (Ref. 27, Pg. 349) says: "Accordingly here, there is a
saying of the sampradayavids which runs as follows- "That which is devoid of
all duality is described by adhyaropa and apavada," i.e., by superimposition
and negation, by attribution and denial." It is not certain whether these
are indeed from the pen of Sundara Pandya and this attribution is merely a
conjecture. It is surprising that no successor of Sri Samkaracarya has
quoted this statement in support of the doctrine of Advaita Vedanta. It must
be kept in mind however, that Sri Samkaracarya has elsewhere used the
honorific title 'sampradayavids' ('they who know the traditional method of
teaching') for Vakyakara, for Dramidacarya and for Gaudapadacarya. There is
no proof that the former two accepted the doctrine of adhyaropa and
apavada..
This doctrine is nevertheless harmonious with the verses attributed
traditionally to Sundara Pandya.

Views:

Using these citations, Pandey (Ref. 93), extracts the views of Sundara
Pandya ingeniously:
1. All the six pramanas are valid only for practical knowledge and are
futile for the purpose of knowing the Self. Once the self is ascertained,
the 6 pramanas loose their validity.
2. The attributeless Brahman can be described by the method of
superimposition and subsequent sublation. Absolute knowledge/Higher
Knowledge, is neither the process of superimposition nor that of negation.
Jnana is more close to a process than to a reality.
3. This twin-fold method culminates in the realization of the Supreme Self
and of the unreal character of the world. When, owing to the cublation of
the conception of the body, the relatives and the like, the imagination of
the figurative and false Self comes to an end, the effect that is the world,
with all its distinctions, cannot exist any longer.
4. Sundara Pandya has made the assumption of Maya and the doctrine of pure
Brahman which is free from Maya.
5. His verses quoted by Amalanda and Kumarila Bhatta indicate that he
believed in the alternative combination of karma and jnana and rejected
jnana-karma samuccaya.

Selected Verses from Nitidvisastika on various topics:

Affection

"A creeper that has been cut can be be made to grow again, but it will never
look as beautiful as it used to. Similarly, an affectionate relationship
that has been spoilt, can be revived again, but it will not have the same
charm as it used to." Nitidvisastika 49

Charity

"A noble man makes a gift of charity respectfully and without publicity.
Mean men also practice charity, but they are guided by selfish motives and
give away with disrespect." Nitidvisastika

Company

"Friendship with the good grows day by day just as the sap of from top to
bottom, hoint by joint. Friendship of the wicked is opposite in nature to
this." Nitidvisastika 16

Enmity

" Foolish people never give up enmity, just as a line drawn on a rock cannot
be erased. But the wise forgive and forget, their enmity is as ephermal as a
line drawn on the surface of water." Nitidvisastika  64

Fools

"Where fools pretend to be wise, the wise should pretend to be foolish.
Under the spell of ignorance ridicule even the wise sayings." Nitidvisastika
18

"Avoid even the sight of foolish men. If one does see them, then avoid their
company. If one does fall into the company of foolish men, then let him keep
silent. And if one does have to speak amongst them, then let him too speak
like them." Nitidvisastika 19

Forgiveness

"If one is censured for a genuine fault of his, then he should endure that
rebuke. And if he is censured for no fault of his, he should forgive the
other person thinking that the censure did not occur at all." Nitidvisastika
66

"If a dog bites a man, he does not bite the dog back. Therefore, if a wicked
man humiliates a virtuous one, the latter should not seek revenge."
Nitidvisastika 68

Friendship

"Following are the characteristics of a bad friend- making fun of their
friend in public, showing friendlines only as long as some benefit is
obtained from the relationship, and not forgetting the bad deeds of his
friend towards him." Nitidvisastika 46

" One should retain formal courtesy only as long as friendship has not been
achieved. Once friendship is acquired, formal courtesy is a sign of deceit."
Nitidvisastika 53

Knowledge

"Just as female bees gather so much honey little by little that it can fill
several pots. Likewise, wise men gather knowledge, religious merit and
penance little by little continuously, without ever giving up."
Nitidvisastika 36-37

"Even old men should humbly approach younger men with reverence for
clarification of their doubts, just as they would approach their teachers
with respect." Nitidvisastika 33

"One should strive to beome learned and not hanker after wealth alone. It is
common to find a wealthy man, but rare indeed is he who has erudition."
Nitidvisastika 92

Longevity

"Of what use is a long life to those whose minds are blemished with lust and
jealousy, who work inefficiently and who feel insulted at slight pretexts?"
Nitidvisastika 60

Merit

"Although dim, the rays of moon falling on the snow clad peaks of the
Himalayas look resplendent and illuminate entire mountain ranges. Likewise,
even a few good qualities become abundant in persons who are lofty with
merit." Nitidvisastika 55

Miser

" The wealth of a man who merely hoards riches, but does not want to enjoy
them is like someone else's wealth lying in his house. It is the like a
daughter who is brought up (with love and affection), only  to be given away
at the time of her marraige." Nitidvisastika 22

"No purpose of existence and no object of human life is attained by him, who
turns miserly at the sight of a needy man and turns him away."
Nitidvisastika 23

"That man's life along is meaningful who sustains and nourishes vast
multitudes of men from his provisions. And he, who does not sustain his
dependents is indeed dead, even if alive." Nitidvisastika 25

Purity

"They who are pure at heart are pure even if impure externally. And they
whose hearts are impure are impure even if they be clean from outside."
Nitidvisastika 44

Sweet Speech

" A wise man should not speak ill of others in an assembly. Even that truth
should not be uttered, which, if expressed, becomes unpalatable."
Nitidvisastika 4

" Why should men endowed with good sense speak harshly, when sweetness is
within their own power and when sentences can be composed with sweet words?"
Nitidvisastika 6

"When a person is addressed harshly, he responds in a doubly harsh manner.
There, one who does not wish to hear unpleasant words must not use such
language himself" Nitidvisastika 7

" He is an eloquent speaker who speaks with brevity, but whose speech is
sweet. One who speaks a lot but speaks with little sense is nothing but a
prattler." Nitidvisastika 8

" As a fire is extinguished only by water, similarly, the anger caused by
harsh speech can be pacified only by the words of wisdom spoken by the
virtuous." Nitidvisastika 11

Virtue

"Learning, Vedic study, penances, prosperity, fame and splendor--all these
in one who is devoid of good character are like the bath of an elephant (an
elephant throws dust on his body after bathing)" Nitidvisastika 38

"Pilgrimages to holy places for ablutions, gazing at the hot blazing sun as
a penance, standing in water in winter--all these cannot take a man to
heaven if he were devoid of good character." Nitidvisastika 39

"Of what use are garlands and perfumes to the man, the fragrance of whose
noble qualities has permeated all the directions?" Nitidvisastika 40

"Although born in a family of Brahmins, a man who is proud, hypocritical,
harmful to others, evil-tongued, boastful and slanderous is but a lowly
Chadala (outcaste)" Nitidvisastika 43

"The following virtues are inborn and natural in noble persons- appreciation
of merits of others, concealing one's own merits and not publicizing them
for fame, not criticizing the faults of men in front of others to defame
them, sweet disposition and straightforward speech." Nitidvisastika 34

" An ignoble man, though born of a noble lineage, endowed with eloquence, a
handsome appearance and adorned with garlands is like the Palasa tree which
blooms but does not yield any fruit." Nitidvisastika 32

Virtuous Men

"A wicked man feels elated when he has hurts others with his unkind words.
On the contrary, a good man repents immediately even if he makes an unkind
remark out of carelessness." Nitidvisastika 67

"Even at times of calamity, a noble man desist from harboring ill-will or
enmity towards others. He is like the sandalwood tree that imparts its
fragrance even to the axe blade that strikes it down." Nitidvisastika 78

"A small good done to the virtuous bears great results, while even great
help extended to the wicked begets only sorrow. Behold- even grass fed to
cows turns into milk, whereas if milk is fed to snakes, it becomes deadly
poison." Nitidvisastika 109

"The anger of virtuous men is pacified easily but the wicked never give up
their grieviences. After all, gold can be melted, but who can melt mere
grass?" Nitidvisastika 106

Wicked

"Just as a chameleon changes colors, the low and wicked too put on three
different colors. At first, he acts as relative, next as a friend and at the
end, he turns out to be a enemy."
Nitidvisastika 47

"Even when honored, rogues do not forgo their wichedness. Does a crescent
become round even after residing on the head of Lord Shiva?" Nitidvisastika
114

Wise Men

"The characteristic of a wise man who has knowledge and wisdom in the right
measure is this- he does not become despondent in adversity, and does not
become arrogant in times of prosperity." Nitidvisastika 85

Wealth

"Virtuous conduct, cleanliness, patience, courtesy, sweet disposition and
noble birth--all these do not shine in a person who does not possess
wealth." Nitidvisastika 29

"Honor, self respect, knowledge, bravery, high ideals--all these are
fruitless in one who does not have wealth." Nitidvisastika 30

_________________

References:

27. Alladi Mahadeva Shastri; Shankaracharya's Commentary on the Bhagavad
Gita; Samata Books, Madras; 1977 (7th Ed.)

92. V. A. Ramaswami Sastri; "Old Vrttikaras on the Purvamimamsasutras";
Indian Historical Quaterly; Vol. 10, pg. 431-452, 1934

93. Sangam Lal Pandey; Pre Samkara Advaita Philosophy; Darshan Peeth,
Allahabad, India; 1974

94. S. Kuppusvami Sastri; "Problems of Identity in the Cultural History of
Ancient India"; Journal of Oriental Research; Vol. 1, pg. 5-15, 1927

114. S. Jayasree (Ed.); Nitidvisastika of Sundarapandya; The Adyar Library
Series- No. 113; Madras; 1984

115. K. A. Nilakanta Sastri; A Note on Acarya Sundara Pandya; Journal of
Oriental Research, 1.2, pg. 179-180; April 1927; Madras

----Original Message Follows----
From: nanda chandran <vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Sundara PAndyan
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 17:19:47 PDT

S Palaniappan writes:
>Where was sundara pANDya-vArttika written and by whom?


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From timlighthiser at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  2 14:19:35 1999
From: timlighthiser at YAHOO.COM (Tim Lighthiser)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 07:19:35 -0700
Subject: Oh so Human
Message-ID: <161227049897.23782.8233921182924038804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am a new comer to the list. It is kind of
interesting, if not surprising, to see how the 'high
brows' can become "OH-SO-HUMAN," passionately
emotional about something like a 'lowbrow's' posting
on a list. Things are starting calm down, thankfully!




--- Harry Falk <falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE> wrote:
> Ramadas schrieb:
>
> > So, in your opinion, only certain topics actually
> fall within the boundaries
> > of the Indology list. Am I correct in my reading
> that only the topics which
> > interest you are of importance -- the interests of
> the other members are of
> > no importance? From reading the above it seems
> that subject matter which
> > does not interest you fails to fall under the
> **profound and interesting**
> > category.
>
> pretty much so considering the interests of those
> who initiated this list
> andkept it running in the beginning by discussing
> matters on the basis of
> rational arguments.
> Now some people (me included) have the impression
> that  a hoard of
> fanatics unites once a day to invent a plethora of
> nonsential messages to
> suffocate
> the list, being fully aware of the fact that the
> rest of the list members is
> rather short of time trying to do serious work.
> Why so?
> I will never get the answer as I have started to
> delete all messages coming
> from those well-known members who obviously have
> nothing else to do
> but to transform every unripe idea into a fully
> grown email.
> We should not turn our back to this list with its
> ever-growing mass of
> sub-standard
> emails. We should find a way to survive the present
> conditions. The idea to have
> this
> list was great and it still deserves to be
> supported.
> Harry Falk
>

_________________________________________________________
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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  2 15:29:03 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 08:29:03 -0700
Subject: Invitation to join Indology
Message-ID: <161227049899.23782.10286810007879247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Respected Dr. Rajaram,

Greetings again. Actually, Vishal Agarwal forwarded
my posting to you. Thanks a lot for your answer
where you mention your questioning of Shrikant Talageri's
certain views.

Vishal Agarwal recently posted extensively about your
forthcoming book with Dr. Natwar Jha with the title
"The Deciphered Indus Script". It seems many Rig
Vedic material is existing even in the Sindhu-Sarasvati seals.

Probably you are aware of the Indology list which
was started in 1990 by Dr. D. Wujastyk. The list membership
is about 600+ persons including many from the Faculty
of prestigious European, American, Indian and Japanese
universities. Not only Professional scholars studying the
ancient India, but many Non-Professional scholars of
Indian origin also participate in Indology.

Your decipherment, as you well realize, is a major breakthrough
and dispel many myths about our Sarasvati culture. As Indologists would
very much like to know your methods employed in the decipherment,
please consider joining the Indology list.

Procedure to join is simple. From your hotmail account,
just send a one line command to listserv at liverpool.ac.uk.
The one line command is:
subscribe indology Dr.N. Rajaram

Later, to post messages, send your posts to
indology at liverpool.ac.uk

There is a good search facility to search the old postings
from Indology archives starting in 1990.

Kind regards,
S. Madhuresan

Cc: Indology list

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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  2 19:02:19 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 12:02:19 -0700
Subject: Sundarapandya's Varttika
Message-ID: <161227049902.23782.4862730979312981886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vishal Agarwal <vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
..........
>E. In Samkara's Commentary on Gita 13.13 (Ref. 93)
>Sri Samkaracarya (Ref. 27, Pg. 349) says: "Accordingly here, there is a
>saying of the sampradayavids which runs as follows- "That which is devoid
>of
>all duality is described by adhyaropa and apavada," i.e., by
>superimposition
>and negation, by attribution and denial." It is not certain whether these
>are indeed from the pen of Sundara Pandya and this attribution is merely a
>conjecture.

Note that the exact sentence "adhyAropa-apavAdAbhyAm nishprapancam
prapancyate" is present in the pancIkaraNa too, without attribution.

>teaching') for Vakyakara, for Dramidacarya and for Gaudapadacarya. There is
>no proof that the former two accepted the doctrine of adhyaropa and
>apavada..

There is no proof that they didn't accept it either. The paingala upanishad,
which I believe is quoted by Sankara somewhere, has a quite detailed
description of adhyAropa apavAda. The sampradAyavit of this particular
reference is most probably not gauDapAda either, as adhyAropa-apavAda is not
found in his kArikAs.

>This doctrine is nevertheless harmonious with the verses attributed
>traditionally to Sundara Pandya.

Is this Sangamlal Pandey's conclusion? I'm quite uncomfortable with the
amount of surmise and conjecture that goes behind this. That Sankara quotes
sundarapANDya towards the end of the adhyAsabhAshya is no guarantee that
sundarapANDya is the author of the statement quoted in the gItAbhAshya.

Vidyasankar


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From asrbng at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Wed Jun  2 08:26:52 1999
From: asrbng at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Kamala)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 13:56:52 +0530
Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka
Message-ID: <161227048460.23782.3611404545411629150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends,

I have given below the list of URLs connected with Srivaishnavism.  Pl.
update this list if any URL is left.
Hope this will be useful to some of the members.


                                                    Vaishnavism - Related
Links

-----------------------------------------------------
Temples:

1) Detroit Bharatiya Temple
"http://www.concentric.net/~lakshmi/katha.html"
2) Temples    "http://www.indianet.com/temples.htm"
3) L.A. Malibu Temple    "http://www.jps.net/aswin/malibu.htm"
4) Sri Venkateswara Temple, Pittsburgh "http://svtemple.org

-----------------------------------------------------
Organisations

1) ATA (American Telugu Association)  "http://www.atasite.com/
2) NAMA Home Page   "http://www.webexpert.net/bchari/nama"
3) Jeeyer Educational Trust (Tridandi) "http://www.jetusa.org"
4) Sri Ramanuja Mission Inc  "http://www2.sysnet.net/~srirama"
5) Academy of Sanskrit Research
"http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/2455
6) Srivaishnava Sri   "http://pages.whowhere.com/community/srivaishnava
7) Lifco (Book Publishers)  "http://www.lifcobooks.com"
8) Thondarkulam    "http://www.geocities.com/~thondarkulam
9) TTD     "http://www.tirumala.org
-----------------------------------------------------
Maths

1) Srirangam Srimad Andavan Ashramam "http://www.andavan.org/"
1a)Srirangam Andavan Home Page  "http://members.aol.com/ganand/andavan.htm">

2) Sri Ahobila Muth    "http://www.utc.edu/ahobilam/"
2a)Sri Ahobila Mutt Home Page   "http://www.cdc.net/~dileepan/ahobilam.html"

3) Srimad Poundareekapuram
   Andavan Home Page
"http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/9878/index.html"
-----------------------------------------------------
Vaishnavism

1) SaraNAgati Journal   "http://www.geocities.com/~elayavalli/sgati
2) Sri Ramanuja info
"http://rbhatnagar.ececs.uv.edu.8080/alt_hindu/1994/msg00081.htm
3) Sri Andal info
"http://www.best.com/~mani/sv/alvars/andal/andal-bio.htm
4) Visishtadvaita Home page  "http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~fmorale1/vvh.htm"
5) Sri Vaishnava AchAryAs  "http://www.geocities.com/~elayavalli/sva.htm"
6) Sri Vaishnava Home Page  "http://www.best.com/~mani/sv.html"
7) Sri Krishna Home Page
"http://members.tipod.com/~srikrishna_01/index01.htm"
8) Thuppul Divya Desam   "http://www.eng.uc.edu/~lsriniva/thuppul.html
9) Areyar Sevai etc.   "http://www.arangham.com
10)Sita     "http://sita.avatara.org
11)Sri Ramnujar    "http://members.tipod.com/~sriramanujar
12)Tirupati    "http://www.balaji.net

=====
Kamala, Coordinator
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Academy of Sanskrit Research,
Please visit our website at http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/2455
HQ: Melkote 571 431, Mandya Dist., Karnataka, India.  Ph: (08236) 58741,
58781
Branch: 62, 9 "A" Coss, Kumara Park West, Bangalore 560 020, India. Ph:
(080) 3360135, 3366082
******This mail is sent from Bangalore
----------------------------------------------------------------------------




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  2 22:02:09 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 15:02:09 -0700
Subject: Gurudatta Vidyarthi's death
Message-ID: <161227049914.23782.7939817822807451155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for the clarification.

Regards

VA


----Original Message Follows----
From: Artur Karp <hart at POLBOX.COM>
Subject: Gurudatta Vidyarthi's death
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:54:30 +0200

Vishal Agarwal wrote:

 > Gurudatta Vidyarthi...
 > I am not sure but he was probably murdered by a
 > Muslim (because he wrote a book showing how violence was used by Prophet
 > Muhammad and his followers to spread Islam).
___________________________________________________________

>?From  Guru Prasad's foreword to G.V.'s "Vedic Philosophy":

"... (April 1889)... He was offered a post of Extra Assistant Commissioner
by the Government, but he declined in favor of teaching and preaching Vedic
religion.

When thus employed in his pious work highly beneficial to the country, he
was taken ill. At first he refused to be treated by doctors and wanted to go
to some secluded place to cure himself; but he was obliged to yield to the
advice of his numerous friends, who put him under the treatment of several
famous doctors both native nad European. His desease was phthisis. He
persistently refused to take meat when prescribed by the doctors. At last,
he expired at 7 a.m. on the 19th March, 1890, at the age of 26 to the great
grief of the Arya Samaj and the Indian people in general [...] all public
schools and colleges were closed on the day of his death. His funeral was
attended by over 1000 men [...]." (pp. v-vi)

Regards,

Artur Karp


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From shrao at IA.NET  Wed Jun  2 20:12:28 1999
From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 15:12:28 -0500
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
In-Reply-To: <8505785c.2486e49d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227049907.23782.1763335892833273009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Brian Akers wrote:

> "The tale of a massive, devastating flood appears not only in the Bible but
> also in other ancient writings, often in similar terms, suggesting that it

It is accepted now that the Biblical version is actually a rechauffe of
the older Sumerian story of Gilgamesh (many books exist about this; a web
search should give a few relevant hits).  While the prevalence of stories
of the flood in ancient legends around the world have led many to believe
that some such cataclysmic event must have occurred, hard scientific
evidence of the flood is lacking.  Claims about discoveries of the "flood
layer" of silt (the best known being by Sri Leonard Woolley) have proved
incorrect.  At this point, few serious scientists are willing to accept
the historicity of the event, therefore.

See http://www.2think.org/ssotb.shtml

Regards,

Shrisha Rao

> Brian




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  2 22:32:43 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 15:32:43 -0700
Subject: Sundarapandya's Varttika
Message-ID: <161227049916.23782.11938155468278450266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Sri. Sunderesan,

Following is an a priori response (since the texts are not available to me
right now and I will have to rely on my memory)

Vishal Agarwal <vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
...........
>E. In Samkara's Commentary on Gita 13.13 (Ref. 93)
>Sri Samkaracarya (Ref. 27, Pg. 349) says: "Accordingly here, there is a
>saying of the sampradayavids which runs as follows- "That which is devoid
>of
>all duality is described by adhyaropa and apavada," i.e., by
>superimposition
>and negation, by attribution and denial." It is not certain whether these
>are indeed from the pen of Sundara Pandya and this attribution is merely a
>conjecture.

VS RESPONDED:
Note that the exact sentence "adhyAropa-apavAdAbhyAm nishprapancam
prapancyate" is present in the pancIkaraNa too, without attribution.

VA REPLIES:
I recall that the words were indeed a quotation in the commentary on BG
13.13. I donot recall the relevant context of Pancikarana, but suffice it to
say here that our Acaryas have often cited their predecessors without
attribution. For instance, the compiler of the extant Yogavasishthha has
used hundreds of verses from numerous Samskrit dramas and minor Upanisdas,
without any attribution (and with or without modifications). Likewise, a
comparison of the Sayanabhasya on RV and the extant fragments of Udgitha
Bhasya on RV show that Sayana has literally copied Udgitha, mostly without
attribution. In doing so, Sayanacarya and the redactor of the extant
Yogavasishthha were guided by 'lokasamgraha' and not 'lokaisshanA'. Could be
speculate that Bhagvatpada Samkaracarya might also have used the words of a
predecessor in Pancikarana without attribution, having internalized the
teachings of Purvacaryas, or being guided by Lokasmgraha? Therefore,
occurance of the same words as an integral portion of Pancikarana do not
mean neceassarily that they are an original creation of Bhagvatpada, for
they do occur as a quotation in the BG Bhasya.
__________

VA WROTE:
>teaching') for Vakyakara, for Dramidacarya and for Gaudapadacarya. There is
>no proof that the former two accepted the doctrine of adhyaropa and
>apavada..
VS RESPONDED:
There is no proof that they didn't accept it either. The paingala upanishad,
which I believe is quoted by Sankara somewhere, has a quite detailed
description of adhyAropa apavAda. The sampradAyavit of this particular
reference is most probably not gauDapAda either, as adhyAropa-apavAda is not
found in his kArikAs.
VA RESPONDS:
The extant fragments of Vakyakara and Dramidabhasyakara show that they  did
were 'Parinamavadis' in all likelihood, and believed that Brahman undergoes
modification ot generate the Universe. In this connection, I refer you to
the citation "Parinamastu dadhyadivata' in Bhaskara Bhasya under the B.Sutra
'Prakrtischa pratijna...." Amalananda quotes an even larger fragment in his
Kalpataru under the same sutra which clarifies matters further. You might
say that Sarvajnatma Muni, in his Samksepa Sariraka states that 'Atreya Muni
(=Vakyakara) first declared the world to be exisitent in the Sadvidya
section of Chh. Up. but later declared that the statement on reality of the
Universe was only privisional.' In this regard, I would like to state that
later on, the teachers of Visistadvaita suggested that the Advaitins had
distorted the teachings of Vakyakara and Dramidabhasyakara to suit the
Advaita doctrines. To prove their point, they have cited dozens of
quotations from the Vakya and the Dramidabhasya which lend support to the
view that both were believers in the reality of the world. I left out
Gaudapadacarya because his views are well known.

Without going into the details of the Paingi Sakha, I merely say that
1. The citations from 'Paingi Upanisad' and 'Paingi Rahasya Brahmana' in
Samkara's Sariraka Bhasya deal with the interpretation of the famous mantra
'Dva suparna sayuja..." occuring in RV 1.164. No such corresponding portions
exist in the extant Paingala Upanisad. The Sariraka Bhasya has another
citation from Paingi Brahmana later (B.S. Chap. 3) but that is a different
matter since it deals with Karmakanda.
2. The extant Paingala Upanisad is ascribed traditionally (wrongly?) to
Yajurveda (and sometimes to Samaveda). But the Paingi Sakha belonged to the
RV.
3. Based on heresay reports, some scholars state that the grhyasutras,
dharmasutras and Brahmana of Paingins might still be found in private
collections in and around Andavan (T. Nadu). Oppert mentioned the existence
of 4 manuscripts of Paingi/Paingayani/Paingaka.. Brahmamans in T. Nadu more
than a century ago but not of them has been traced.
4. The extant Paingala Upanisad does contain examples like silver in nacre
etc. but not the text cited by Bhagvatpada on BG 13.13
_______________________

va wrote:
>This doctrine is nevertheless harmonious with the verses attributed
>traditionally to Sundara Pandya.
VS WROTE:
Is this Sangamlal Pandey's conclusion? I'm quite uncomfortable with the
amount of surmise and conjecture that goes behind this. That Sankara quotes
sundarapANDya towards the end of the adhyAsabhAshya is no guarantee that
sundarapANDya is the author of the statement quoted in the gItAbhAshya.

VA RESPONDS:
I had collected this stuff a year back and do not recall exactly. I will
agree however that in more than one place, S.L. Pandey has relied on
untenable conjectures and has made some errors (despite the fact that on the
whole, the text is an excellent summary on Pre-Samkara Advaita Vedanta). If
I remember correctly, the oldest reference that states that the quotation
under BG 13.13, is the introduction to Sankhapani's commentary on
Brahmasiddhi published several decades ago, from Madras. (If this is
accessible to you, please ascertain the same).

I still have to respond to you on Govindapada (I remember!)

Regards,

Vishal


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From Sfauthor at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  2 19:48:45 1999
From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 15:48:45 -0400
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227049904.23782.8234845608139948185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Has anyone on the list read this book?

Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries about the Event that Changed
History. William Ryan and Walter Pitman. Simon & Schuster, New York, 1998
($25).

The June issue of Scientific American has a review on page 99 that includes
the following:

"The tale of a massive, devastating flood appears not only in the Bible but
also in other ancient writings, often in similar terms, suggesting that it
records a real and singularly memorable event. . . . the event might have
been a huge and prolonged cascade of water from the Mediterranean that broke
through a natural dam in the Bosporus Strait and plunged into what was than a
freshwater lake and is now the Black Sea. . . . dating it about 5600 B.C.
'The Bosporous flume roared and surged at full spate for at least three
hundred days,' . . . . The cascade inundated 60,000 square miles of land,
forcing the people in the region to disperse."

This was news to me. Is this theory widely known and accepted? Have any
members of the list made a study of flood accounts?

Brian


--------------------
Brian Dana Akers
www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/
sfauthor at aol.com




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  2 23:16:47 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 16:16:47 -0700
Subject: Sundarapandya's Varttika
Message-ID: <161227049919.23782.15395720728165641509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vishal Agarwal <vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>Therefore,
>occurance of the same words as an integral portion of Pancikarana do not
>mean neceassarily that they are an original creation of Bhagvatpada, for
>they do occur as a quotation in the BG Bhasya.

I don't question that, as BG bhAshya specifically says the sentence is
sampradAyavidAm vacanam. The question is whether this sampradAyavit can be
accurately identified. Besides, there is a variant tradition regarding the
pancIkaraNa (re: viSveSvara sarasvatI's manual of yatidharma) which does not
include the first half of the commonly published text, and therefore omits
this sentence.

Thanks for reminding me that Sankara quotes the paingI rahasya, and not the
paingala. I was relying on memory too, and got the names confused in my
mind.

>
>I still have to respond to you on Govindapada (I remember!)
>

:-) I'm looking forward to it!

Regards,
Vidyasankar


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From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN  Wed Jun  2 11:07:51 1999
From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 16:37:51 +0530
Subject: Looking for an address
Message-ID: <161227049884.23782.12956068176667912643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

I wish to contact :
        Dr. Mariella Giura-Longo
who was at Centre of Asian Studies, Univ. of Hong Kong last
year.  Can some one give me the email/land address ?

Thanks
Surya P. Mittal




From thompson at JLC.NET  Thu Jun  3 02:32:37 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 22:32:37 -0400
Subject: Gentoo studies (details on SR)
In-Reply-To: <3756850A.C40F901B@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227049928.23782.3409024779527855518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What kind of argument is this?:

>I can remember a river mentioned in the Rgveda
>as evidence of knowledge of a foreign "Aryan" homeland based on
>sound resemblance alone.

Can you remember anything else?

GT

At 06:37 AM 6/3/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>Michael Witzel wrote:
>>
>> 4. All other points have been left *unsanwered* by SR.  Even according to
>> his own ideal of 'logical' vivADa, rather unsatisfactory.
>>
>> Final Grade: "topic not dealt with in any detail",  therefore "F" , or
>> equivalent low percentage (in the Indian system).
>>
>>
>
>I would give Michael Witzel and "F" for openmindness.  I can remember
>some time back when he suggested a river mentioned in the Rgveda
>as evidence of knowledge of a foreign "Aryan" homeland based on
>sound resemblance alone.  That type of thing hearkens back to the days
>of Colonel Tod.
>
>Regards,
>Paul Kekai Manansala
>
>




From thompson at JLC.NET  Thu Jun  3 02:32:56 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 22:32:56 -0400
Subject: Oh so Human
In-Reply-To: <19990602141935.9161.rocketmail@web103.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <161227049926.23782.8065686080093174546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Typical.  Another newcomer appears out of the blue and decides, completely
out of context, that Harry Falk is a 'high brow', and "OH-SO-HUMAN."

Tim Lighthiser, study the list archives for a few moments before you decide
who is a 'high brow' and "OH-SO-HUMAN."

You are clueless.

GT


At 07:19 AM 6/2/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>I am a new comer to the list. It is kind of
>interesting, if not surprising, to see how the 'high
>brows' can become "OH-SO-HUMAN," passionately
>emotional about something like a 'lowbrow's' posting
>on a list. Things are starting calm down, thankfully!
>
>
>




From hart at POLBOX.COM  Wed Jun  2 20:54:30 1999
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 22:54:30 +0200
Subject: Gurudatta Vidyarthi's death
Message-ID: <161227049909.23782.8476006955724002697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vishal Agarwal wrote:

> Gurudatta Vidyarthi...
> I am not sure but he was probably murdered by a
> Muslim (because he wrote a book showing how violence was used by Prophet
> Muhammad and his followers to spread Islam).
___________________________________________________________

>?From  Guru Prasad's foreword to G.V.'s "Vedic Philosophy":

"... (April 1889)... He was offered a post of Extra Assistant Commissioner
by the Government, but he declined in favor of teaching and preaching Vedic
religion.

When thus employed in his pious work highly beneficial to the country, he
was taken ill. At first he refused to be treated by doctors and wanted to go
to some secluded place to cure himself; but he was obliged to yield to the
advice of his numerous friends, who put him under the treatment of several
famous doctors both native nad European. His desease was phthisis. He
persistently refused to take meat when prescribed by the doctors. At last,
he expired at 7 a.m. on the 19th March, 1890, at the age of 26 to the great
grief of the Arya Samaj and the Indian people in general [...] all public
schools and colleges were closed on the day of his death. His funeral was
attended by over 1000 men [...]." (pp. v-vi)

Regards,

Artur Karp




From thompson at JLC.NET  Thu Jun  3 03:24:48 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 23:24:48 -0400
Subject: Gentoo studies (details on SR)
In-Reply-To: <37569E26.43C68321@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227049933.23782.10002256156682491216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Well, I hope that the list will now see that Paul Kekai Manansala's memory
is rather poor, and I encourage everyone to excuse him.

As for Paul himself, I encourage him to re-read not only his own book, but
the Rgveda as well.

GT

At 08:24 AM 6/3/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>George Thompson wrote:
>>
>> What kind of argument is this?:
>>
>> >I can remember a river mentioned in the Rgveda
>> >as evidence of knowledge of a foreign "Aryan" homeland based on
>> >sound resemblance alone.
>>
>> Can you remember anything else?
>>
>
>I can remember that was Witzel's argument, which gets an "F"
>in my book.
>
>Regards,
>Paul Kekai Manansala
>
>




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  3 03:50:28 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 23:50:28 -0400
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227049936.23782.1613367949379818312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 5/30/99 3:52:52 AM Central Daylight Time,
vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

> You could read Natalia Isayeva's "From
>  early Vedanta to Kashmir Saivism" for an excellent discussion of the two
>  non-dual traditions. However, while there is a good discussion of
>  philosophical issues, I seem to remember that there is little mention of
>  historical cross-influence in this book.

In a footnote in p. 136 Isayeva writes, "In a striking simile found in one of
the zaivite texts, ziva keeps coming to the soul as an unknown, dark lover
who only after some time becomes gradually "recognized" and accepted; only
then the real merging together becomes possible, and the soul "melts away"
(vilIyate) into ziva's entity."

There is no reference given.  However, when I read this, it brought to my
mind so many suggestions of Tamil devotional poetry of nAyan2mArs and AzvArs.
Does anybody know if there any non-Tamil precursors for the use of such a
simile?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  3 03:53:59 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 23:53:59 -0400
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227049939.23782.17899376379777704616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 5/30/99 3:52:52 AM Central Daylight Time,
vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

>On the
>  other hand, I am inclined to think that the mAnasollAsa is simply referring
>  to the source texts on which the later school of abhinavagupta based
itself.
>  And it is entirely possible that some of these source texts being referred
>  to in the mAnasollAsa were entirely south Indian in origin and influence.

Do you have any specific texts in mind? As for Agamas, etc.,
uttarakAmikAgama, viSNudharmottara, pUrvakAraNAgama, amzumadbhedAgama,
zilparatna, ajitAgama, rauravAgama, and rauravottarAgama describe
dakSiNAmUrti according to S. Narayanasvamy (Daksihinamurti: Agamam and
Silpam, IInd Part, 1991). Regarding zaivAgamas L. J. N. Banerjea says,"As for
the zaivAgamas, Gopinath Rao is of opinion that the kAmikAgama is the oldest
among them; and as in many of the other ones, including the kAraNAgama,
reference to the devAram <sic> hymns composed by the nAyanmArs or the
zivabhaktas is to be found, they are to be dated later than the 9th century
A.D. The zAkta tantra works, as we have them at present and which contain
iconographic and iconometric data, are mostly much later in date than the 9th
or 10th century A.D." Some date viSNudharmottara to 5th-7th century A.D.

What is interesting is according to Narayanasvamy, kAraNAgama and
amzumadbhedAgama mention agastya as one of the sages. So, clearly these texts
were produced based on the Tamil tradition. uttarakAmikAgama mentions
aghorazivAcArya as one of the sages. According to K. C. Pandey,
aghorazivAcArya (c. 1158)  was from the Chola country. Thus texts dealing
with dakSiNAmUrti may be in Sanskrit. But there is a strong likelihood many
could have been produced in the Tamil/Malayalam region.

Of course, we have tirumUlar and mANikkavAcakar mentioning Agamas. tirumUlar
mentions 28 Agamas. mANikkavAcakar mentions makEntira malai as the place
where the Agamas were revealed. These may refer to texts older than 9th
century.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  3 04:15:08 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 00:15:08 -0400
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227049942.23782.5731201215632234545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 5/30/99 3:52:52 AM Central Daylight Time,
vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

>  5. The text of sundara pANDya (a pre-Sankaran author) seems to be
>  unavailable, except in quotations in later vedAntic authors. The author may
>  be the same as one who is called dra(m)viDAcArya by many authors.

Many thanks to Vishal Agarwal for pointing out many interesting details about
Sundara Pandya. There is an incomplete Tamil translation of Sanskrit Sundara
Pandyam which U. V. Saminathaiyar consulted in his edition of nampi's
tiruviLaiyATal dealing with the Madurai myths of ziva. Unfortunately, the
Tamil cuntarapANTiyam has not been printed. I will not be surprised if the
Tamil translation (c. 1563 AD) gives some useful information regarding the
Sanskrit original.

What is becoming obvious is that the so-called "dark age" of the kalabhras of
Tamil country was not "dark" at all. There must have been quite a bit of
creative interaction between the Tamil country, especially the Madurai and
Potiyil region, and north India when Tamil literary and religious concepts
from Tamilnadu were transmitted to north India through the medium of
Sanskrit. (The similarities seen between sundarapANDya and Kalidasa (reported
by Vishal Agarwal) adds further support to my views regarding these.) It is
not really surprising, however. cilappatikAram has a brahmin pilgrim who
meets the hero kOvalan2 in the Tamil country and later meets the Chera king
on the southern bank of the Ganges.

>  The reverse influence, from
>  Tamil Nadu to Kashmir, that you posit may not go very well.

In a message dated 5/31/99 9:25:08 PM Central Daylight Time,
ramakris at EROLS.COM writes:

>By the 12th century, daxiNAmUrti was quite famous as a teacher. His
>name comes up in the Agama-s and even the late Vishnuite Bhagavata
>Purana tries to coopt him as a Vishnuite teacher! So, madhurAja yogins
>comments are not very surprising.

As Ramakrishnan says, it may not be surprising. But as I discussed in an
earlier posting, many Agamas and Bhagavata may be products of Tamil/Malayalam
region or South Indian. But in madhurAja's zloka we have a clear instance of
a Kashmiri text where the daKSiNAmUrti concept originating in the Tamil
zaivism is recognizably used.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT  Wed Jun  2 23:43:44 1999
From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 00:43:44 +0100
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
In-Reply-To: <8505785c.2486e49d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227049921.23782.7420503306661912259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In reply to Brian Akers's message of 2 Jun 99, 15:48:

> Has anyone on the list read this book?
>
> Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries about the Event that Changed
> History. William Ryan and Walter Pitman. Simon & Schuster, New York, 1998
> ($25).
>
> The June issue of Scientific American has a review on page 99 that
> includes the following:
>
> "The tale of a massive, devastating flood appears not only in the Bible
> but also in other ancient writings, often in similar terms, suggesting
> that it records a real and singularly memorable event. . . . the event
> might have been a huge and prolonged cascade of water from the
> Mediterranean that broke through a natural dam in the Bosporus Strait and
> plunged into what was than a freshwater lake and is now the Black Sea. . .
> . dating it about 5600 B.C. 'The Bosporous flume roared and surged at full
> spate for at least three hundred days,' . . . . The cascade inundated
> 60,000 square miles of land, forcing the people in the region to
> disperse."
>
> This was news to me. Is this theory widely known and accepted? Have any
> members of the list made a study of flood accounts?


I have devoted some study to the comparison of the three main
traditions dealing with the flood myth, i. e. the Near-Eastern, the
Classical and the Indian ones. I was not interested, however, in the
problem of the historicity of the deluge, but in the relationship
between these different traditions

Some tentative results are summarized in my paper read at the IX
Italian Conference of Sanskrit Studies (1977) about
"Matsyaavataara: scenari indiani del diluvio" [Matsyaavataara:
Indian flood scenarios], which, however, is still waiting for
publication in the proceedings.

Briefly, the Near-Eastern tradition is represented by a Sumerian
fragment, Paleo-Babylonian (18 cent. BCE), Neo-Assyrian (7 cent.
BCE) and Hellenistic (3 cent. BCE) versions and the Hebrew
biblical Jahvist and Elohist accounts, to which a number of Arabic
quranic references may further be added. The survivor's name is
variously Atra-hasIs, Uta-napishtim, Xisuthros, and of course Noah.
The flood appears to be universal.

The Classical tradition is represented mainly by passages by
Pindar, Apollodorus, Horace and Ovid, plus a host of scattered
references of a more casual nature. This tradition lacks unity. At
least three main lines can be detected: the well-known myth of
Deukalion and Pyrrha, and two lesser ones where the survivor is
Ogygos, resp., Dardanos. The flood appears to be of a local nature.

The Indian tradition is represented chiefly by passages of the
Zatapatha BraahmaNa, Mahaabhaarata, Matsya,
ViSNudharmottara, Bhaagavata, GaruDa, Agni, Skanda and
Kaalikaa PuraaNa -- as well as the well known BhaviSya PuraaNa
passage referring to the Nyuuha (i. e., Noah) myth! To these,
poetical elaborations may be added such as KSemendra's in his
Dazaavataracarita, and other more casual references of which I am
aware. By the way, I should be grateful for any addition to this list.
Of course, the survivor is Manu Vaivasvata, and the flood is
universal.

A comparison of the distinctive traits of these traditions shows that,
while the biblical accounts are undoubtedly dependent on (or at
least related to) the Akkadian and Sumerian versions (and again
the basis of the later quranic accounts) such is not the case with
the other two traditions. More particularly, the Indian accounts
appear to share with the Near-Eastern versions only such very
generic traits as must needs belong to any flood myth, whereas
they widely differ in detail as well as in structure.

This means that it is at least improbable that all three traditions
should refer to one and the same historical occurrence -- if they at
all point to a real event.



----------------------------
Paolo Magnone
Catholic University of Milan
pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it
Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies
http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm

----------------------
Paolo Magnone
p.magnone at agora.stm.it




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Thu Jun  3 03:23:12 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 03:23:12 +0000
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227049912.23782.10639755171777616280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Shrisha Rao <shrao at IA.NET> wrote:
>[snip] At this point, few serious scientists are willing to accept
> the historicity of the event, therefore.
> See http://www.2think.org/ssotb.shtml

The statements made in this URL about the Bible can as well apply to the
Rigveda as a source of history.

On the terms used for 'flood' in the Rigveda: there are two references, both
used in the context of barricading or releasing the waters...

arn.a (5.032.010): kha_ni tvam arn.ava_n baddhama_na_ aramn.a_h: Indra sets
open the flood-gates (kha_ni)and liberates the obstructed streams

u_rmi_ (10.030.02): a_syadhvam u_rmim adya_ suhasta_h: (priests) cast today
that flood (of Soma) into (the consecrated water).

Are there IE or Avestan cognates to these two lexemes: arn.a and u_rmi_?

regards,
kalyanaraman



____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From kekai at JPS.NET  Thu Jun  3 13:37:15 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 06:37:15 -0700
Subject: Gentoo studies (details on SR)
Message-ID: <161227049924.23782.7173159277337553591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel wrote:
>
> 4. All other points have been left *unsanwered* by SR.  Even according to
> his own ideal of 'logical' vivADa, rather unsatisfactory.
>
> Final Grade: "topic not dealt with in any detail",  therefore "F" , or
> equivalent low percentage (in the Indian system).
>
>

I would give Michael Witzel and "F" for openmindness.  I can remember
some time back when he suggested a river mentioned in the Rgveda
as evidence of knowledge of a foreign "Aryan" homeland based on
sound resemblance alone.  That type of thing hearkens back to the days
of Colonel Tod.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala




From kekai at JPS.NET  Thu Jun  3 15:24:22 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 08:24:22 -0700
Subject: Gentoo studies (details on SR)
Message-ID: <161227049931.23782.6194908495306622588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson wrote:
>
> What kind of argument is this?:
>
> >I can remember a river mentioned in the Rgveda
> >as evidence of knowledge of a foreign "Aryan" homeland based on
> >sound resemblance alone.
>
> Can you remember anything else?
>

I can remember that was Witzel's argument, which gets an "F"
in my book.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala




From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  3 16:30:29 1999
From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 09:30:29 -0700
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227049952.23782.17696311951773657502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

    As if by design, Kashmir is back on the world stage just as the crisis
in Kosovo is heading toward resolution. Conventional wisdom is that Kashmir
cannot be part of India because the majority of its population is Muslim. On
the other hand, the world expects India to be secular.
    I think the two propositions are incompatible. Kashmir is the acid test
for India's secularism. If Kashmir goes, India will cease to be a secular
state.
    The solution to the problem lies, I believe, in making South Asia
secular--in precept and in practice. Turkey's long experience with the
secular ideal needs to be studied by all those who wish well of South Asia.
I would appreciate if members of this list can provide references to
comparative studies done in this field.
    Shrinivas Tilak


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  3 14:49:25 1999
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 10:49:25 -0400
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
In-Reply-To: <8505785c.2486e49d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227049947.23782.202431045683812235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is a book, edited by Alan Dundes, which collects papers discussing
mythology of the flood/flood mythologies. I don't have the details at hand,
but it should be easy find under the editor's name.

Jonathan SILK

jonathan.silk at yale.edu




From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Jun  3 15:19:23 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 11:19:23 -0400
Subject: Historicity of the Flood - Dundes' book
Message-ID: <161227049949.23782.9713290072736610027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Alan Dundes book mentioned by Jonathan Silk, is:

87-10832


The Flood myth / edited by Alan Dundes.  Berkeley : University of
California
Press, c1988.  vi, 452 p. ; 24 cm.



LC CALL NUMBER: BL325.D4 F55 1988



SUBJECTS:

  Deluge--Comparative studies.



OTHER NAMES:

  Dundes, Alan.



NOTES:

  Includes index.

  Suggestions for further reading on the flood myth": p. 439-445.



ISBN:  0520059735 (alk. paper)

DEWEY DEC.:  291.1/3 19



Books in Print and Amazon.com show the hardcover ed. as in print at
$75.00, and the paperback as out of print.

Allen Thrasher







Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Jun  3 13:33:22 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 14:33:22 +0100
Subject: Forwarded message from Prof. Saroja Bhate
Message-ID: <161227049945.23782.4739491807777633750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 16:01:44 -0700
From: Prof. Saroja Bhate <saroja at unipune.ernet.in>
Subject: Re: message to Indology

Dear Indologist

  You are perhaps aware that the govt. of India has declared this year
(Yugaabda 5101) as Samskrta Varsha. The Samskrta varsha Samitee at Pune
has planned a number of programmes in the wake of this announcement. One
of the programmes is the organization of an International Meet some time
in December 1999 or January 2000. The main topic of the meet will
obviously be Sanskrit studies : present and future. As the working
president of the Samitee I invite you to participate in the meet, take
part in the discussions and present your views . As a preparation for the
meet I am collecting information from the world of Indology regarding the
present position of Sanskrit studies. I will, therefore, be grateful if
you reply the following questions and email or airmail them back to me.

[The questionnaire has been extracted and made available via the INDOLOGY
website (see http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html and choose
"members information..."). -- DW]

Sincerely yours


( Saroja Bhate )




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  3 22:06:37 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 15:06:37 -0700
Subject: Q : Research on Marathas in TN
Message-ID: <161227049954.23782.20966089008641846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Was the advaitin NagojiBhatta one amongst the deshasthas ?

The grammarian NagOji Bhatta or Nagesa Bhatta, the author of manjUsA, as
written some works on Patanjala Yoga. But on Advaitam?


_______________________________________________________________
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From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun  3 22:12:36 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 15:12:36 -0700
Subject: History of debate
Message-ID: <161227049956.23782.6638078054097818578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Regarding our discussion on the identification of the SAmkhya philosopher
Ishvara Krishna with KAlidhAsa, I came across an interesting bit of
information.

The identification was actually made by one Svapneshwara in his
KaumudiprabhA (any information on the author or his works?). The words are :
"IshvarakrishnanAmnA KAlidhAsena krtah kArikAh."


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From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun  3 23:30:11 1999
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 16:30:11 -0700
Subject: Q : Research on Marathas in TN
Message-ID: <161227049961.23782.15620506173105519810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry for the mistake, I was refering to the bhatta's
below

----------------------
bhaTTojI dIkshita, the great grammarian scholar from the north was a
disciple of appayya dIkshita. bhaTTojI's brother, rangojI bhaTTa, wrote
advaita works such as advaitacintAmaNi and attacked the dvaita school
of AnandatIrtha in his madhva-siddhAnta-bhanjanI. bhaTTojI wrote
advaitakaustubha, a dIpana on nRsimhASrama's tattvaviveka, and the
madhvamata-vidhvamsana against dvaita.
--- nanda chandran <vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >Was the advaitin NagojiBhatta one amongst the
> deshasthas ?
>
> The grammarian NagOji Bhatta or Nagesa Bhatta, the
> author of manjUsA, as
> written some works on Patanjala Yoga. But on
> Advaitam?
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit
> http://www.msn.com
>

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From deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG  Thu Jun  3 22:58:38 1999
From: deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG (Tein Network)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 18:58:38 -0400
Subject: Secular South Asia
In-Reply-To: <19990603163030.70703.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227049959.23782.5701766001156945257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

June 3, 1999

RE: Thank you for your logical and scholarly comment on Kashmir !

Dear Mr. Tilak,

I am grateful to you for your insight on Kashmir ! I agree fully with your
insight in this difficult issue.  And now our task must be to convince every
Kashmiri that they must "choose", nay, "demand" the culture of "plurality"
vs a a culture based on one religion !

And the "benefits" of such a "demand" by every Kashmiri must be more
economic prosperity, more choice and more freedom and opportunities for
their children and for them. This is the cause to which we all need to
make a contribution whether we live in India or America, if we value
India's plurality and treat it as a most precious inheritance from historic
India of five thousand years of civilization !!

This must also be the choice of every Indian muslim and every Indian who
has a different religion than the majority, including every tribal who
live in India ! Also, I take pride in the fact that another "minority",
Buddhists from Tibet found sanctuary in India when they were forced to
leave their homeland only a few years ago.

I am taking the liberty to share your comments with ORNET, a
sub-group of Indians who I think will appreciate your comments
as I did.

Thank you very much, Mr. Tilak !

Avi Dey,
Coordinator,
TEIN Former Soviety/India Roundtable


On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Shrinivas Tilak wrote:

>     As if by design, Kashmir is back on the world stage just as the crisis
> in Kosovo is heading toward resolution. Conventional wisdom is that Kashmir
> cannot be part of India because the majority of its population is Muslim. On
> the other hand, the world expects India to be secular.
>     I think the two propositions are incompatible. Kashmir is the acid test
> for India's secularism. If Kashmir goes, India will cease to be a secular
> state.
>     The solution to the problem lies, I believe, in making South Asia
> secular--in precept and in practice. Turkey's long experience with the
> secular ideal needs to be studied by all those who wish well of South Asia.
> I would appreciate if members of this list can provide references to
> comparative studies done in this field.
>     Shrinivas Tilak
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun  4 13:13:56 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 06:13:56 -0700
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227049969.23782.8646323454138482608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Remember reading an article by David Shulman on Tamil deluge myths.
In J. of Tamil studies (Chennai)? Can an Indology lister check
A. Dundes, The flood myth, 1988 to see if Shulman's article is
reproduced there?

Also, see D. Shulman, "Fire and Flood: The testing of Sita in Kampan's
IrAmAvaAram" in P. Richman, Many Ramayanas, 1991.

Appreciations for giving the Shulman piece ref. on Tamil flood legends
from IRaiyanAr akapporuL, first Tamil prose and a grammar on
composing Love poems (8th century CE),

SM


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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun  4 13:42:18 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 06:42:18 -0700
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227049971.23782.12120715572425356715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Srinivas,

I am also thinking on the Secularization of South Asian
region. Glad that you mention Turkey - One of the
first things they did was to Romanize their script.

It will be a good start: Both Pakistan and India
should adapt to the Roman script; Hindi and Urdu,
esentially being the same languages, the script choices
reflect a religious base. If South Asia employs
the Roman script as a whole- the Indic transliteration scheme
as given in the Indology can form the basis -
it will secularize many aspects of life
in South Asia. Take the country, Turkey for example.

Regards.





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From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Jun  4 07:46:29 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 07:46:29 +0000
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227049963.23782.12928196941998618954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Paolo Magnone <p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT> wrote:
> This means that it is at least improbable that all three traditions
> should refer to one and the same historical occurrence -- if they at
> all point to a real event.

It is indeed welcome to enlarge traditional studies with some exploratory work
by earth scientists.

Please browse the following 3 URLs for the earth scientist's account of
ancient Eurasia:

http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/aryan/noah.htm

A related web page also refers to the Younger Dryas in the context of
diffusion of languages and also transition from the glacial age, setting the
limits of habitable areas of palaeo-vegetation of the quaternary age and river
sarasvati...:

http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/aryan/glacialage.htm

Did Indo-European languages spread before farming?...

http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/aryan/Indo2.html

Regards,
Kalyanaraman



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From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK  Fri Jun  4 10:03:38 1999
From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (Dermot Killingley)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 10:03:38 +0000
Subject: Request to Indologists
In-Reply-To: <19990525033702.91127.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227049965.23782.13083740194492069713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Date:          Tue, 25 May 1999 03:37:00 GMT
> Reply-to:      Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> From:          uma deokar <latamahesh at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:       Request to Indologists
> To:            INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

Dear Uma,

Here is my reply to your questionnaire.
>
> 1. Name Dermot Killingley

>2. Age
63

>3. Nationality
British

>4. Educational Qualifications
BA (Oxford, in Latin, Greek and Sanskrit), PhD (London)

>5. Specialisation
Indian religion

>6. Present academic status
Reader in Hindu Studies, University of Newcastle upon Tyne

>7. How many years you are engaged in Sanskrit Studies ?
40.

>8. Which Sanskrit - English dictionaries have you used ?
> Specify if any particular dictionary is used at particular stage of
> Sanskrit study - elementary, intermediate or advanced

Macdonell at elementary stage. Monier-Williams from intermediate
stage onwards. I have occasionally used Boehtlingk and Roth, and
V.S.Apte.

>9. Which dictionary do you prefer ? Please state the reasons for the
> preference.

Monier-Williams, because I am used to it and I have my own copy, and
because the information is fairly full, including brief indication of
the type of literature, sometimes the author, and sometimes even the
text place, in which a usage occurs. But the information is not
always easy to find, and is usually not so full as in Boehtlingk and
Roth. Macdonell, which I also have, is useful if I want to find how a
word is used in the more limited range of literature which it covers,
or if I want to know what compound verbs are formed from a particular
root (e.g. gacchati, Agacchati, upagacchati etc.)

With best wishes,

Yours sincerely,

Dermot
Dr Dermot Killingley (Reader in Hindu Studies)
Department of Religious Studies,
University of Newcastle upon Tyne,
Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU
Tel: (0191) 222 6730. Fax: (0191) 222 5185




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun  4 17:37:01 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 10:37:01 -0700
Subject: Tamil and Prakrit Consonant Assimilation
Message-ID: <161227049973.23782.9621929336963037184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

  Tamil and Prakrit Consonant Assimilation
  -----------------------------------------

Sanskrit consonant clusters, 'rm' and 'rN' change to
Prakrit 'mm' and 'NN' respectively. In Vedic, there are
only very few words with consonant groups 'mm'. Later in
time, most Sanskrit words with 'rm' transform into 'mm'.
This simplification process through assimilation can be
observed in Old Tamil also.

EXAMPLES:
---------

                Sanskrit           |     Prakrit
          --------------------------------------------------
                karNa (ear)        |     kaNNa
                varNa (color)      |     vaNNa
                kIrNa (scattered)  |     kiNNa
                pUrNa (full)       |     puNNa
                parNa (leaf)       |     paNNa
                nirNaya (decision) |     niNNaya



                Sanskrit           |     Prakrit
          ----------------------------------------------
                karman (action)    |     kamma
                dharma (law)       |     dhamma
                varman (armour)    |     vamma
                gharma (heat)      |     ghamma
                carman (skin)      |     camma
                kUrma (tortoise)   |     kumma

  Compunds with nir-(without)
               nirmathana(churning)|     nimmathana (Pali)
               nirmala (clean)     |     nimmala (Pali)
               nirmUla (rootless)  |     nimmUla (Pali)


TAMIL EXAMPLES:
---------------

In old Tamil, parallel processes of assimilation can be observed
from "rum" to "mm" and from "run" to "n2n2' (taking "n"
as ta. dental n and "n2" as ta. alveolar n).

"rum" -> "mm"
--------------
1) porumal (plumpness/abundance) -> pommal
2) cerumAn2 (leather worker) -> cemmAn2 (cf. ceruppu = sandals)
3) perumAn2 (great man) -> pemmAn2


"run" -> "n2n2"
--------------
1) nerunal (the day before) -> nen2n2al

This assimilation is present partially in certain word pairs
1) parutti (cotton), pan2n2al 2) karumpu (sugarcane), kan2n2al.
Campantar (7th century CE) sings "karunal paravai kamaz kAzi"
Can this *karunal taken to mean sugarcane??
karnATu appears to be a back formaton from kan2n2ATu (boulder/hill
country).

Is this "rm to mm" and "rN/rn to NN/nn" assimilation observed in
both Aryan an Dravidian languages, an area defining feature
like echo words, reduplication, onomotopoeic words, etc.,?
If not, is this observed in other language families?

Comments are welcome,
N. Ganesan





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From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU  Fri Jun  4 21:06:30 1999
From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 11:06:30 -1000
Subject: Secular South Asia
In-Reply-To: <19990604134218.13657.rocketmail@send304.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <161227049980.23782.10019728803569881528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote:

> I am also thinking on the Secularization of South Asian
> region. Glad that you mention Turkey - One of the
> first things they did was to Romanize their script.


But are Indians are intelligent enough
to realize the advantages of doing this?

Of course, we could first make Indians more
intelligent by renaming them all "Albert".
Imagine -- a country of one billion Einsteins!
Thanks, Albert.

Yours brainily,


Albert (used to be Raja).




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun  4 19:29:50 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 12:29:50 -0700
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227049978.23782.15008615928786467040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
> The next step could be to set up a MacDonald's at Dazaazvamedha Ghat, I
> suppose. Think Big! if you can Dream it, you can Do it...


We already have MacDonald's In India.
Only, the first step is needed, hopefully
by your compatriot or her descendants :-)

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From Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH  Fri Jun  4 13:01:40 1999
From: Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Toru Tomabechi)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 15:01:40 +0200
Subject: IABS Conference / 3rd Announcement
Message-ID: <161227049967.23782.16910494721749983471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

(This message has been sent to both INDOLOGY and BUDDHA-L mailing
lists. Sorry for incovenience, if you received it twice)


Dear list members,

We have just sent out the Third Announcement for the XIIth Conference
of the International Association of Buddhist Studies to those who have
been registered to the conference. The same document is available on
our web site at:  http://www-orient.unil.ch/

Best wishes,

Toru Tomabechi, Secretary
The XIIth IABS Conference
University of Lausanne




From rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 21:19:30 1999
From: rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU (Ramani T. kandiah)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 16:19:30 -0500
Subject: MalaiyALam and Ezham thamizh
Message-ID: <161227049982.23782.1778869771337142998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List members,

I have noticed similar word usages between MalaiyALam and Ezham thamizh.
I am talking about the usages that are not common in daily thamizhn-adu
thamizh usage.
(may be restricted ONLY to the kanniyAngkumari thamizh that I am not
familiar with).

For examples,
the most known example, paRaithal - chat/talk
samusayam - doubt

Could someone send me some more examples.

Further, I would appreciate if anyone provides me the references of some
recognized research works
(or publications) on the comparitive studies between the Ezham thamizhar and
Keralites.

Thank you very much.

rgds,
Ramanitharan, K.
New Orleans, LA, USA.
'99 June 04, Fri 16:07 CST




From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT  Fri Jun  4 18:28:56 1999
From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 19:28:56 +0100
Subject: Secular South Asia
In-Reply-To: <19990604134218.13657.rocketmail@send304.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <161227049975.23782.17064888675804750582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 4 Jun 99, Swaminathan Madhuresan
<INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> wrote:

> It will be a good start: Both Pakistan and India
> should adapt to the Roman script; Hindi and Urdu,
> esentially being the same languages, the script choices
> reflect a religious base. If South Asia employs
> the Roman script (...) it will secularize many aspects of life
> in South Asia.


The next step could be to set up a MacDonald's at Dazaazvamedha Ghat, I
suppose. Think Big! if you can Dream it, you can Do it...



----------------------------
Paolo Magnone
Catholic University of Milan
pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it
Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies
http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  5 10:32:50 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 03:32:50 -0700
Subject: Tamil and Prakrit Consonant Assimilation
Message-ID: <161227049989.23782.7378769135911436493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. Parpola's reply to me. Regards, N. Ganesan

-----------------------------------------------------------
The Prakritic consonant assimilation may be due to a substratum
influence of Dravidian originally spoken in North India: when people
speaking a language with few or very simple consonant clusters speak
another language with complicated consonant clusters such as Sanskrit,
this is what tends to happen. I think the Tamil assimilation provides
a parallel showing that this is indeed a likely hypothesis.

With best regards,
Asko Parpola



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From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM  Sat Jun  5 08:57:05 1999
From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 09:57:05 +0100
Subject: Search for e-mail address
Message-ID: <161227049985.23782.13352262556670410833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jine 5, 99

I am searching for e-mail addresses of Dr Avinash Sathyae and
Adheesh Sathaye, both members of Indology list. If they chance to
see this posting, they should contact me on my current e-mail
address <arjunwadkar at mcmail.com>
K S Arjunwadkar




From martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Sat Jun  5 10:28:40 1999
From: martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Martin Bemmann)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 12:28:40 +0200
Subject: undeciphered inscription
Message-ID: <161227049987.23782.9973486369713100295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

on behalf of my colleague Dr. Nasim Khan from Peshawar University I
would like to draw your attention to an undeciphered inscription on
shist stone from Gandhara in the collection of the Department of
Archaeology, Univ. Peshawar. I placed an image on our homepage and I
would ask everybody interested to take a look at it
(http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/sign.html).
Suggestions please send offlist to knasim at hotmail.com and/or to the
undersigned.

Regards,
--
Martin Bemmann
Heidelberg Academy for the Humanities and Sciences
>Rock Carvings and Inscriptions along the Karakorum Highway<
Karlstr. 4  - D-69117 Heidelberg Germany

mailto:martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de
http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html




From asrbng at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Jun  5 08:32:40 1999
From: asrbng at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Kamala)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 14:02:40 +0530
Subject: ASR Publications
Message-ID: <161227048565.23782.17735025264964411822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Sirs,

Academy of Sanskrit Research is a premier institution located in Karnataka,
India. The activities of the Academy largely fall in the orbit of Vedanta,
especially Visistadvaita propagated by Acharya Ramanuja.   We have published
more than 35 valuable titles on Upanishads, Ramanuja's works etc. These
books are referred to by the eminent
scholars for a detailed study of Vashnavism/ Visistadvaita philosophy,
comparative study and so on.  Many scholars have appreciated the value of
these books.  Particularly, one would be amazed to see the sea of
information provided in the critical edition of Sribhasyam (magnum opus of
Acharya Ramanuja) in four volumes. They will no doubt be a good collection
to your valuable library.

It may be interesting to you to know that the Academy which has a campus of
more than 20 acres situated on the peak of Melkote, a hill town in
Karnataka, has a well established library of more than 23,000 printed books,
1000 audio cassettes, 11000 plam leaf and paper manuscripts.  The garden of
fruits and flowers has created a Tapovana like atmonsphere congenial for
indepth study and research.

You can reach Melkote from Mysore, Bangalore and Mandya easily.

****************************************************************************
****************
I wish to bring to your kind notice the publications of the Academy of
Sanskrit Research.
ASR - PUBLICATIONS

Furnished here under is a complete list of the publications of the Academy.
(Price in Dollars)

KANNADA
Isavasyopanisad Popular Edition  - 5
Isavasyopanisad                              - 15
Kenopanisad                                    - 10
Kathopanisad                                   - 15
Prasnopanisad                                - 10
Mundakopanisad                             - 10
Bhagavadvisayam Vol I                   - 15
Bhagavadvisayam Vol II                   - 15
Bhagavadvisayam Vol III                  - 15

SANSKRIT
Visistadvaitakosa Vol I                       - 25
Visistadvaitakosa Vol II                     - 10
Visistadvaitakosa Vol III                     - 15
Visistadvaitakosa Vol IV                    - 20
Sribhasyam Vol I                                 - 25
Sribhasyam Vol II                               - 25
Sribhasyam Vol III                              - 15
Sribhasyam Vol IV                            - 20
Vedartha Sangraha                            - 15
Vedanta Sara                                    - 5
Isavasyopanisad                              - 15
Kenopanisad                                     - 15
Srigunaratnakosa                             - 5
Padasakti                                           - 5
Brahmasutrani                                  - 5
Sribhasyam (text only)                     - 10

ENGLISH
Brhadaranyakopanisad Vol I-II       - 25
Bibliography of Visistadvaitic Works  -30
   ( Vol I-II )
Descriptive Catalogue of Sanskrit
Manuscripts on Visistadvaita (Sanskrit)-  15
Descriptive Catalogue of Sanskrit
Manuscripts on Visistadvaita (Tamil)     - 15
Consciousness                                         - 10
Samvit (Sanskrit and Computer-based
Linguistics)                                                -  5
Research Journal 'Tattvadipah'
1) Back Issues (1988-92)                             - 15
2) 1993 No. 1&2, 1994,1997 No. 1&2)"

The Academy brings out a quarterly Newsletter in English, Kannada and
Sanskrit, complete with details regarding the activities of the Academy. At
present, nearly 5,000 people are on the newsletter mailing list. Interested
persons may please send their address (postal, email).

Regards,
Kamala, Coordinator
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Academy of Sanskrit Research,
Please visit our website at http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/2455
HQ: Melkote 571 431, Mandya Dist., Karnataka, India.  Ph: (08236) 58741,
58781
Branch: 62, 9 "A" Coss, Kumara Park West, Bangalore 560 020, India. Ph:
(080) 3360135, 3366082
******This mail is sent from Bangalore
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From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU  Sat Jun  5 22:06:33 1999
From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 17:06:33 -0500
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227049993.23782.18190620345390652762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In reply to Paolo Magnone, Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:43:44 :

>...while the biblical accounts are undoubtedly dependent on (or at
>least related to) the Akkadian and Sumerian versions
>... the Indian accounts appear to share with the Near-Eastern versions only
>such very
>generic traits as must needs belong to any flood myth...
>
>This means that it is at least improbable that all three traditions
>should refer to one and the same historical occurrence -- if they at
>all point to a real event.
>
While I agree that it may be impossible to connect literary traditions
about a universal flood with geological evidence for actual events,  I
wouldn't want Brian or anyone else to overlook striking similarities that
also exist between the Matysa-avatar stories and the Middle Eastern
references to an ark:

e.g, from the Matys purana, as translated by Cornelia Dimmitt and J.A.B.
van Buitenen:

...Oh lord of earth, those who are sweat-born, egg-born, plant-born and
live-born.  Put all these creatures into the boat, O faithful one, and save
them!" _Classical Hindu Mythology: a Reader in the Sankrit Puranas (Temple,
Univ. Press, 1978) , p. 72.

MRabe
SXU/SAIC/Chicago




From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU  Sat Jun  5 22:14:32 1999
From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 17:14:32 -0500
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227049996.23782.17250671060107363144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to Paolo Magnone, BTW,  for the rich number of citations from his
forthcoming article:
especially to the

>.... well known BhaviSya PuraaNa
>passage referring to the Nyuuha (i. e., Noah) myth!

Is it also the case that that purana of the future _foretells_ the reign of
queen Victoria? Chapter and verse citations would be appreciated for both
passages.




From jpstephen at HOME.COM  Sat Jun  5 22:25:30 1999
From: jpstephen at HOME.COM (stephens)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 18:25:30 -0400
Subject: Naadi Shastra
Message-ID: <161227049999.23782.6563925862725008056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to know who the author/s of Naadi Shastra is/are. I was told
that every individual born on earth has something written about them in the
Naadi Shastra. Is this so?

Sujatha
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Rabe <mrabe at ARTIC.EDU>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: Historicity of The Flood

>Is it also the case that that purana of the future _foretells_ the reign of
>queen Victoria? Chapter and verse citations would be appreciated for both
>passages.




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Sun Jun  6 16:29:26 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 99 12:29:26 -0400
Subject: Buddhist revival movement in India
Message-ID: <161227050002.23782.12534867154849685637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Balaji Hebbar wrote:

> Also,  though  Buddhism  was  born  in  India  it  is  today  found
> everywhere  in  East  Asia  except  India  (neo-Buddhists  excepted).
> Similarly,  though  Christianity  was  born  in  Israel,  it  is  today
> found  in  Europe  and  not  in  Israel.  I  presume  the  national
> religions  in  both  cases  (Hinduism  and  Judaism)  were  rather
> deep-rooted  among  the  peoples  of  India  and  Israel.  The  reform
> religions  Buddhism  and  Christianity  just  didn't  hit  home  with
> them.  Indologists  I  do  need  your  kind and  esteemed  feedback  on
> this.  (I  do  understand  that  modern  Israel  came  into  being  only
> in  1948)

He has a very interesting point in comparing India and Israel on one
hand and Buddhism and Christianity on the other.

It seems that  Buddhism was the first messianic religion founded by an
individual like Christianity and Islam. Both Judaism and Traditional
Hinduism are considered eternal (sanatan) by their adherents and neither
of them care to proselytize or convert others.  As a matter of fact both
discourage the conversion of any one else who is not born in their
traditional family and are not concerned with the decline in their
numbers as a result. It is only the later day politicians with electoral
votes in mind have become interested in Suddhi or re-conversions.

It seems that Judaism and Hinduism had appeal to some people just
because they were personal religions and all accepting. Just like there
are many secular atheists who call them Jews, there are many Hindus who
never go to any temple or worship any particular god but still call
themselves Hindus. I cannot see how any revival of Buddhism or Xtianity
will attract these people.

Have a peaceful and joyous day.

Aditya Mishra
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        Why did CNN cancel that cool "Desert Storm" show?




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  7 13:20:37 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 06:20:37 -0700
Subject: Murugan in Washington, D.C.
Message-ID: <161227050004.23782.5524983354184549359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Last week, there was a grand kumbhAbishekam at the Murugan temple,
Washington, DC. About 4000 people participated in the event.
Sivachachariyars and MaTaathipathis from famous Saiva Siddhanta
adheenams were present to participate from Tamil Nadu.
Thiru. Santhalinga Ramasamy ADikaLaar, maTaatipati, CantaliGkar
tirumaTam, Perur and Swami Satchidananda, Lotus Temple,
Yogaville, Buckingham county, West Viriginia were present
to grace the occasion.

Did any Indology lister attend? Look at Bill Clinton's,
(a recent murugan bhakta) message. Probably, Hillary
is Devasena (official; Indra's daughter) and of course,
Monica is the vaLLi :-)

Regards,
N. Ganesan


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Washington (PTI) President Bill Clinton has greeted people who
gathered on the occasion of the kumbhabishekam celebrations of the
Greater Washington area's new Murugan Temple during the weekend.

Clinton said in his message: "Warm greetings to everyone gathered to
celebrate the dedication of the temple of the Lord Murugan in nation's
capital."

"Your beautiful new temple stands as evidence of the faith and vision
of your comunity. That enduring faith binds members of a congregation
together in fellowship and prayer, and will help to lead all of you
through the struggles and joys of life." the president stated.

"Our country was founded on a great tradition of religious liberty,
which helps to unite our nation of diverse faiths and creeds and gives
us a common ground for tolerance, healing and understanding. This
celebration is a reminder of the ways that god's blessings can be used
to fulfil our obligation to help others." he said.

Worshippers in their thousands participated in the three-day
celebration.

The $1.7 million Murugan Temlple, like the older Sri Siva Vishnu
temple, is located in the suburb of Maryland not far from NASA
headquarters.

   ------------------------------------------------------------------



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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  7 14:12:28 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 07:12:28 -0700
Subject: Murugan in Washington, D.C.
Message-ID: <161227050006.23782.13669293081645761923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Did any Indology lister attend? Look at Bill Clinton's,
>(a recent murugan bhakta) message. Probably, Hillary
>is Devasena (official; Indra's daughter) and of course,
>Monica is the vaLLi :-)

Compare Murugan/Bill in Washington
with Siva having Ganga on his matted locks along with
Parvati as his better-half.

Leaving the heavens and coming to the South of our times:
see MGR, his wife Janaki, and the girlfriend, Jayalalita.




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From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun  7 14:45:59 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 07:45:59 -0700
Subject: Murugan in Washington, D.C.
Message-ID: <161227050008.23782.12732602956590960596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- "N.Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Last week, there was a grand kumbhAbishekam at the Murugan temple,
> Washington, DC. About 4000 people participated in the event.
> Sivachachariyars and MaTaathipathis from famous Saiva Siddhanta
> adheenams were present to participate from Tamil Nadu.
> Thiru. Santhalinga Ramasamy ADikaLaar, maTaatipati, CantaliGkar
> tirumaTam, Perur and Swami Satchidananda, Lotus Temple,
> Yogaville, Buckingham county, West Viriginia were present
> to grace the occasion.
>

Are the pujas and archanas going to be conducted according to the Tamil
tradition...or  as usual, in Skt. as in most other temples even though
we have a temple for the archetypal Tamil god? Your mention of perUr
aDikaL gives hope that it might the former.

> Did any Indology lister attend? Look at Bill Clinton's,
> (a recent murugan bhakta) message. Probably, Hillary
> is Devasena (official; Indra's daughter) and of course,
> Monica is the vaLLi :-)
>

But minus kaRpu (chastity) ...:-)

> Regards,
> N. Ganesan
>
>

Regards
Chandra
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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun  7 17:25:39 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 10:25:39 -0700
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227050010.23782.15845541790199123308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There are 100s of references in Tevaram hymns (7th century CE) about flood
legends - Especially, cIkAzi as the only place floating like a boat (tONi)
when all three worlds were submerged by the sea. Shiva plays the veena
and saves all living beings.

Hope Dr. Jean-Luc will write here on Tevaram flood legends.

Regards,
SM

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From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU  Mon Jun  7 17:30:09 1999
From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 13:30:09 -0400
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
In-Reply-To: <199906052214.RAA14821@dune.artic.edu>
Message-ID: <161227050012.23782.10403003624718849900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

These (chapter and verse citations) can found in chapter 9 of my recent
book, Rethinking India's Oral and Classical Epics....

Alf Hiltebeitel
Director, Human Sciences Program
Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences
The George Washington University
Phillips Hall 412
Washington, D.C., 20052
202/ 994-4297
Fax: 202/ 994-7034

Department of Religion
2106 G St., NW
Washington, D.C. 20052
202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674
Fax: 202/ 994-9379



On Sat, 5 Jun 1999, Michael Rabe wrote:

> Thanks to Paolo Magnone, BTW,  for the rich number of citations from his
> forthcoming article:
> especially to the
>
> >.... well known BhaviSya PuraaNa
> >passage referring to the Nyuuha (i. e., Noah) myth!
>
> Is it also the case that that purana of the future _foretells_ the reign of
> queen Victoria? Chapter and verse citations would be appreciated for both
> passages.
>




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Jun  7 19:05:02 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 15:05:02 -0400
Subject: Christianity in Israel (Was:Buddhist revival movement in India)
Message-ID: <161227050017.23782.270732003938761608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I missed this error in an earlier posting by Balaji Hebbar and noted
it in a subsequent exchange.  I think it should not go uncorrected
thought it is not strictly Indology material and do not wish to open a
new chain:

<<Similarly,  though  Christianity  was  born  in  Israel,  it  is
today found  in  Europe  and  not  in  Israel.>>

I do not have figures at hand but a significant percentage of the
populations of Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Authority
territory are Christian, though they are tending to leave both
jurisdictions because of economic and other pressures both from the
Israelis (which the local leaderships will complain about openly) and
from the Muslims (about which they feel they have to be more
discreet).  Of course they are a minority but not a tiny one.  They
also form about %10 of the populations of Egypt, Syria, and Iraq.

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Mon Jun  7 21:15:56 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 17:15:56 -0400
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227050023.23782.7745394907068626282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Shrinivas Tilak wrote:
>
>     The solution to the problem lies, I believe, in making South Asia
> secular--in precept and in practice. Turkey's long experience with the
> secular ideal needs to be studied by all those who wish well of South Asia.

The experience of Turkey was a taboo subject in India and even MK
Gandhi, the so called secularist, supported the Khalfat movement of Ali
Brothers. There is no tradition of secularism in India at all comparable
to Kamal Pasha. Even to this day most muslims disdain Kamal Pasha and
Turkey is having hard time keeping secularist tradition. A moslem
fundamentalist party somewhat comparable to RSS in India had taken lead
in recent polls and had even given one Prime Minister.

It is very wishful thinking to assume that any one in India will be
interested in Turkish experiment. Even the Europeans do not support the
secularism in Turkey at the behest of Greece and did not let Turkey join
EU even though it is a member of NATO.

India has never been a secular country under Gandhi/Nehru dynasty which
has relied on the religious divisions to maintain their power base.
Gandhi/Nehru did not trust any muslim with any important position of
power while they were alive and had they been willing to compromise, the
division of India could have been avoided.


Have a peaceful and joyous day.

Aditya Mishra
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  8 00:27:39 1999
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 17:27:39 -0700
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227050027.23782.8400794364698400806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<
The experience of Turkey was a taboo subject in India and even
MK Gandhi, the so called secularist, supported the Khalfat movement
of Ali Brothers. There is no tradition of secularism in India at all
comparable to Kamal Pasha. Even to this day most muslims disdain Kamal
Pasha and Turkey is having hard time keeping secularist tradition.
A moslem fundamentalist party somewhat comparable to RSS in India
had taken lead in recent polls and had even given one Prime Minister.

It is very wishful thinking to assume that any one in India will be
interested in Turkish experiment. Even the Europeans do not support
the secularism in Turkey at the behest of Greece and did not let
Turkey join EU even though it is a member of NATO.

India has never been a secular country under Gandhi/Nehru dynasty
which has relied on the religious divisions to maintain their power
base. Gandhi/Nehru did not trust any muslim with any important
position of power while they were alive and had they been willing to
compromise, the division of India could have been avoided.
>>

By keeping the artificial divisions alive and growing,
South Asians waste a good amount of scarce resources.
This will only ensure that we all remain poor for a looooong
time.

South Asian Union (SAU) one day! I know only
God can do this for us.






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From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun  8 00:34:15 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 17:34:15 -0700
Subject: Secular South Asia
In-Reply-To: <375BF206.F8AA3F70@univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <161227050029.23782.9272236198795191723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can we please move this *entire* discussion
(one which is not within the purview of
"Ancient India") to private email?

Thanks,
Mani




From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT  Mon Jun  7 17:51:32 1999
From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 18:51:32 +0100
Subject: The "PurANa of the Future",              Noah and Queen Victoria (was: Historicity of the Flood)
In-Reply-To: <199906052214.RAA14821@dune.artic.edu>
Message-ID: <161227050014.23782.7742127912702718692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In reply to Michael Rabe's message of 5 Jun 99, 17:14:

> Thanks to Paolo Magnone, BTW,  for the rich number of citations from his
> forthcoming article: especially to the
>
> >.... well known BhaviSya PuraaNa
> >passage referring to the Nyuuha (i. e., Noah) myth!
>
> Is it also the case that that purana of the future _foretells_ the reign
> of queen Victoria? Chapter and verse citations would be appreciated for
> both passages.

The Noah myth is found in BhSP III, 1, 4, 45 ff. NyUha's name is
even provided with an etymology:

nirgatastUha (?) eva saH / tasmAd nyUhaH smRtaH

He has three sons: SIma, Zama and BhAva and is a fervent
ViSNubhakta. ViSNu appears in a dream announcing the
forthcoming pralaya in seven days and directing him to escape with
his kin. NyUha builds a ship (measuring as in the Genesis) and
boards it, while the SaMvartaka clouds pour water for 40 days
submerging the whole of BhAratavarSa. The survivors praise the
goddess, ViSNu's mAyA, the waters subside, and in the distance
(ArAt !) are seen the Himalayan slopes called ZiSiNA where the
ship finally lands.

As for queen Victoria, the passage in question must be BhSP III, 4,
22, 72 ff., which is, however, quite unclear. It is about the monkey-
faced (!) GuruNDas, the progeny of VikaTa (an ape ally of RAma),
come for the purpose of trade, followers of the BauddhamArga and
adherents of the creed of Izaputra (i. e. Jesus). Entrusted by Hari
with the charge of the people, they settled in KalikAtA.VikaTAvatI,
the queen (tatpanI = tat-patnI ?) of the western island of VikaTa,
set up a royal counsel by way of the 8 Kauzala, and its king
(tatpati) PulomArci went to KalikAtA...

Any historians on the list who can offer a detailed explanation of
the references?




----------------------------
Paolo Magnone
Catholic University of Milan
pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it
Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies
http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm




From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT  Mon Jun  7 19:32:09 1999
From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 20:32:09 +0100
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
In-Reply-To: <199906052206.RAA14672@dune.artic.edu>
Message-ID: <161227050019.23782.3029090608538979742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In reply to Michael Rabe's message of 5 Jun 99, 17:06:


> While I agree that it may be impossible to connect literary traditions
> about a universal flood with geological evidence for actual events,  I
> wouldn't want Brian or anyone else to overlook striking similarities that
> also exist between the Matysa-avatar stories and the Middle Eastern
> references to an ark...

I beg to differ. The "ark" is perhaps the most conspicuous instance
of what I was referring to as "very generic traits as must needs
belong to any flood myth". After all, how could anyone survive a
flood if not by some kind of floating device (unless the flood is a
partial one, as is sometimes the case)? So it is only too natural
that different flood traditions may have independently developed the
idea of an "ark"; and notice that the similarities do not go much
beyond that.

Actually, the so-called "ark" in the Genesis is "tEvAh", occurring
elsewhere only in Exodus 2, 3.5 where it means the basket
wherein Moses was set afloat on the river; and a basket it may
have been even in the original deluge myth. In the extant account,
the "ark" is not really a ship, but a parallelepiped, quite unsuitable,
one would think, for navigation.

In Apollodorus, Deukalion and Pyrrha are saved in a "larnax", i. e. a
trunk or a casket, which becomes a raft ("ratis") in Ovid.


In the Indian tradition, on the other hand, the "ark" is consistently a
ship; it may be built by Manu, or it may be already there, which is
extremely significant in connection with the unique symbolism --
including the fish and the rope -- of which it is an integral part.



----------------------------
Paolo Magnone
Catholic University of Milan
pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it
Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies
http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm




From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  8 06:11:20 1999
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 23:11:20 -0700
Subject: sankethi brahmans
Message-ID: <161227050034.23782.10889054434573448592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While speaking to a sankethi brahman (carnatic flutist shashank's
father) I learnt that the sankethis were originally from Tirunelveli
dist. and were settled in villages in Hassan dist. by the Mysore
maharaja. I also learnt that this happened just less than 200 years
ago.
Is there any reference to this story other than tradition since this
might have been documented in the maharaja's court. Also what might be
the origin of the name sankethi ?(this I forgot to ask him)

Thanks,
Nikhil

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From manevsk at IM3868.SPB.EDU  Mon Jun  7 19:29:02 1999
From: manevsk at IM3868.SPB.EDU (Ilona V. Manevskaya)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 23:29:02 +0400
Subject: a question as to Atisha's works in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227050021.23782.6270477156595045780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,
 we are interested in sanskrit original works by Atisha; we are aware
of Bodhi-patha-pradipa restored from the Tibetan but we would like to
know about any his works that survived in Sanskrit; we'd also like to
know whether his Bodhisattva-maNi-AvalI preserved in Sanskrit or not.

Many thanks in advance. Sincerely yours, Ilona and Dmitry
_________________________________________________________




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Tue Jun  8 03:55:48 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 99 23:55:48 -0400
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227050032.23782.7046785986765486955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

birgit kellner wrote:
>
> (Any follow-ups via private e-mail please)
>
In other words you want to have the final say in the matter just because
you live in Europe but would not let any one else express his/views with
the other members. You have right to have opinions about matters about
India but an Indian does not have a right to express his opinions about
matters European.

What makes you think that any one is interested in discussing this
matter with you privately and what purpose would that serve?


Have a peaceful and joyous day.

Aditya Mishra
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        Circular definition: see definition, circular.




From Birgit.Kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Mon Jun  7 16:23:34 1999
From: Birgit.Kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 01:23:34 +0900
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227050025.23782.5805959821710160080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic" wrote:
>
> It is very wishful thinking to assume that any one in India will be
> interested in Turkish experiment. Even the Europeans do not support the
> secularism in Turkey at the behest of Greece and did not let Turkey join
> EU even though it is a member of NATO.
>
I certainly do not wish to enter a discussion about EU policy on this
list, and hope that noone else does, but I nonetheless believe that it
is necessary to add a severe caveat to this statement. Suggesting that
Turkey's non-admission to the EU is somehow *caused* by Turkey's
secularism is indicative of a lack of knowledge not only of EU politics
but also, and more so, of what has happened to Turkey's secularism over
the past years (or decades).
(Any follow-ups via private e-mail please)

Regards,

--
Birgit Kellner
Institut fuer Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Universitaet Wien
Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies / Vienna University




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  8 11:55:25 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 04:55:25 -0700
Subject: sankethi brahmans
Message-ID: <161227050041.23782.6691164575269424673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think H. S. Anantanarayana has a paper (from an M. A.?) on
Sankethi dialect of Tamil which corresponds to Tirunelveli tamil.



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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  8 12:22:31 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 05:22:31 -0700
Subject: sankethi brahmans
Message-ID: <161227050043.23782.2312524636402986821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

K. S. Nagaraja, Tense in Sanketi Tamil: A comparative note,
Bull. of the Deccan College Res. Inst., 41, p. 126-9, 1982

H. S. Anantanarayana, Sound changes in Sanketi, a Tamil dialect.
Studies in Indian linguistics (Prof. M. B. Emeneau Sastipurti
volume), p. 1-14, Poona & Annamalainagar

Ci. Es. Ramacandra, Sanketi: jananga, samskrti, mattu bhAse,
Maisuru, 1991.





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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  8 12:32:48 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 05:32:48 -0700
Subject: Apostle Thomas again
Message-ID: <161227050045.23782.14533131896966026440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<<
Of course the legend of Thomas' death near Madras is not true, as I
think I made clear in my first message,  [...]

As to Mylapore, attempts to identify it with Calamina, the traditional
place given as Thomas' burial "in India", do not seem convincing. The
first to mention Thomas' grave in Mylapore is thus Marco Polo (3, 18
in Yule - Cordier) in the 13th century. John of Montecorvino visited
a church of Thomas on way to China in 1292, this probably was in the
South. In 1345 John of Marignolli, another Catholic envoy to China,
also visited Mylapore. Thus the Mylapore tradition was earlier than
the Portuguese, although they certainly made much of it.

Michael Rabe asked about the stone cross found near Mylapore.
See A. C. Burnell, Indian Antiquary 3, 1874, 308-316. If anybody
knows a more recent source, please inform.
>>>

Me too. Is there a recent academic treatment of "St. Thomas
died in Mylapore" myth. (Approximate) dates of the Cross
which Burnell published in 1874?

Interested in recent studies of the sources, from Polo to say,
18th century of the Mylapore myth,
N. Ganesan


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From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Tue Jun  8 12:50:37 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 08:50:37 -0400
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227050047.23782.1881340488737984233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

birgit kellner wrote:
>
> Occasionally, one offers things to others in order to find out WHETHER they
> are interested, and not presuming already THAT they are interested
> ...anyway, discussing the matter privately could serve the purposes of (a)
> removing this subject from a mailing-list where it does not belong, (b)
> clearing up misunderstandings or removing ignorance.

(a) When people are not interested in a subject then it falls off the
mailing list and no special effort is needed from one subscriber. It is
a poor and lame excuse for some one who  wants to say the last word but
does not want others to respond.
(b)
I consider you last sentence an unnecessary ad hominem attack by calling
some one who has different opinion from you as ignorant however
misinformed that person may be in your opinion. The fair solution would
have been to provide the correct information and not resort to name
calling.


Have a peaceful and joyous day.

Aditya Mishra
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        Love your enemies. It makes them so damn mad.




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  8 17:01:27 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 10:01:27 -0700
Subject: Bengali Buddhists
Message-ID: <161227050059.23782.15325421954489451205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Are there any studies (historical, anthropological) on
the Buddhists from (East) Bengal? Are they Buddhists for
millennia?

Thanks,
SM


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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  8 17:49:23 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 10:49:23 -0700
Subject: Murugan in Washington, D.C.
Message-ID: <161227050061.23782.7358181986543721425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Periannan Chandrasekaran <perichandra at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Are the pujas and archanas going to be conducted according to the Tamil
> tradition...or  as usual, in Skt. as in most other temples even though
> we have a temple for the archetypal Tamil god? Your mention of perUr
> aDikaL gives hope that it might the former.

Just spoke with Thiru. Gurusamy, M.D., of Udumalpet who
started building the Murugan temple in the Nation's capital.
Puujas and archanas will be done in the two classical
languages of India, viz., Tamil and Sanskrit.

Regards,
SM


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From emstern at NNI.COM  Tue Jun  8 14:50:45 1999
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 10:50:45 -0400
Subject: Secular South Asia
In-Reply-To: <375D119D.AEE0FE26@bc.seflin.org>
Message-ID: <161227050050.23782.16977856219805727424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>birgit kellner wrote:
>>
>> Occasionally, one offers things to others in order to find out WHETHER they
>> are interested, and not presuming already THAT they are interested
>> ...anyway, discussing the matter privately could serve the purposes of (a)
>> removing this subject from a mailing-list where it does not belong, (b)
>> clearing up misunderstandings or removing ignorance.
>
>(a) When people are not interested in a subject then it falls off the
>mailing list and no special effort is needed from one subscriber. It is
>a poor and lame excuse for some one who  wants to say the last word but
>does not want others to respond.
>(b)
>I consider you last sentence an unnecessary ad hominem attack by calling
>some one who has different opinion from you as ignorant however
>misinformed that person may be in your opinion. The fair solution would
>have been to provide the correct information and not resort to name
>calling.
>
>
>Have a peaceful and joyous day.
>
>Aditya Mishra
>Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
>ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442
>Fax #:  209-315-8571
>Random thought of the day:
>        Love your enemies. It makes them so damn mad.

Please have the discretion to keep your discussion to the subject matters
of Indology.



Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Tue Jun  8 08:59:14 1999
From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 10:59:14 +0200
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227050036.23782.9814545696073851582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic" wrote:

> birgit kellner wrote:
> >
> > (Any follow-ups via private e-mail please)
> >
> In other words you want to have the final say in the matter just because
> you live in Europe but would not let any one else express his/views with
> the other members. You have right to have opinions about matters about
> India but an Indian does not have a right to express his opinions about
> matters European.
>
>

 I do not want to have the final say in this, nor in any other matter. I
simply wanted to point out that your statements regarding the EU's stance on
Turkey, which occurred in a context where some list-members try to paint
secular Turkey as an ideal model for India, appeared to be based on a lack
of knowledge about the actual political situation in Turkey nowadays or a
misunderstanding of that situation. Surely, whatever opinions you have, if
they are based on misinformation or misinterpretation, they become
disputable, no matter whether you are Indian, European, or British :-) This
is the last I shall say on this matter on this list (see point (a) below),
no matter what curiously enraged replies I might unwillingly provoke this
time ...


> What makes you think that any one is interested in discussing this
> matter with you privately and what purpose would that serve?
>

Occasionally, one offers things to others in order to find out WHETHER they
are interested, and not presuming already THAT they are interested
...anyway, discussing the matter privately could serve the purposes of (a)
removing this subject from a mailing-list where it does not belong, (b)
clearing up misunderstandings or removing ignorance.

> Have a peaceful and joyous day.
>

same to you,

--
Birgit Kellner
Institut f. Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Institute for Tibetan and
Buddhist Studies
Universitaet Wien / Vienna University




From bhebbar at EROLS.COM  Tue Jun  8 16:13:40 1999
From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 12:13:40 -0400
Subject: sankethi brahmans
Message-ID: <161227050053.23782.8432451173539672777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nikhil:

You  might  find  this  interesting:
The  late  Prof. H.Subba  Rao  of  Mysore  University  was  a  Sanketi
SmArta  brahmin.  After  engaging  in  a  debate  with  the  erudite
late  HH  SatyadhyAna  TIrtha  of  UttarAdi  MaTha  for  a  month,
Prof.  Subba  Rao  finally  converted  to  the  MAdhva  SampradAya.
According  to  him,  his  people,  i.e.  the  Sanketis  originally  came
from  Shenkotta  in  South  Kerala,  hence  the  name  Sanketi.  Prof.
H.Subba  Rao  eventually  became  one  of  the  leading  paNDits  of
our  community.  He  passed  his  last  days  in  the  service  of  HH
LakShmIvara  TIrtha  of  the  ShirUr  MaTha  of  UDupi.  His  only
English  book  "Strength  of  Madhvaism"  was  published  by  the
pontiff  of  the  ShirUr  MaTha.

Regards,
B.N.Hebbar




From bhebbar at EROLS.COM  Tue Jun  8 16:34:28 1999
From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 12:34:28 -0400
Subject: Christianity in Israel (Was:Buddhist revival movement in              India)
Message-ID: <161227050056.23782.8659444472010209001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mr. Thrasher:

I  posted  on  June  1st  that  (and  I  repeat  here):

I  am  fully  aware  that  there  are  Christians  AND  Muslims  living
in  the  territory  of  the  State  of  Israel  BUT  their  native
tongue  is  ARABIC  not  HEBREW!  They  are  Israeli  citizens,  so
they  learn  Hebrew  in  school.

On  the  other  hand  there  are  ethnic  South-Asian  Buddhist,  some
neo-Buddhists  like  the  Marathi-speaking  Mahars  and  some
traditional  ones  like  some  Bengalis  from  Bangladesh.  In  fact, on
June  13th  they  are  having  a  big  ("tAn"  ceremony)  at  the
Cambodian  Buddhist  temple  on  New  Hampshire  Ave,  Silver  Spring,
MD.  I  believe  there  are  some  200  Bengali  Buddhist  families  in
the  Washington  DC  metro  area.

On  the  side,  I  am  aware  that  some  prominent  Arabs  are
Christians:  e.g.  Boutros-Ghali  (former  UN  Secy  General),  Hanan
Ashrawi  (Palestenian  negotiator)  and  Tariq  Aziz  (Saddam  Hussein's
inner  cabinet  member)!

B.N.Hebbar




From timlighthiser at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  8 20:31:59 1999
From: timlighthiser at YAHOO.COM (Tim Lighthiser)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 13:31:59 -0700
Subject: Oh so Human
Message-ID: <161227050070.23782.4894699531375337677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mr. Thompson,

With all do respect, and in the same tenor as your
message.

You took the bait.

I rest my case.

THANKS! Being right was never so easy.






--- George Thompson <thompson at JLC.NET> wrote:


> Typical.  Another newcomer appears out of the blue
> and decides, completely
> out of context, that Harry Falk is a 'high brow',
> and "OH-SO-HUMAN."


> Tim Lighthiser, study the list archives for a few
> moments before you decide
> who is a 'high brow' and "OH-SO-HUMAN."


> You are clueless.
>
> GT
>
>
> At 07:19 AM 6/2/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> >I am a new comer to the list. It is kind of
> >interesting, if not surprising, to see how the
> 'high
> >brows' can become "OH-SO-HUMAN," passionately
> >emotional about something like a 'lowbrow's'
> posting
> >on a list. Things are starting calm down,
> thankfully!
> >
> >
> >
>

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From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Tue Jun  8 10:32:54 1999
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 13:32:54 +0300
Subject: Apostle Thomas again
Message-ID: <161227050039.23782.128066683406751859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues
Sorry that I am rather late wit h my reply. I had to switch my e-mail to a
new machine, and it took some time to have it running again.

As to the question of Ganesan, Cosmas mentions twice, in 3, 65 and 11, 14,
Christian communities in South India and Sri Lanka, with a Persian bishop,
but he does not mention Thomas' death. In fact he does not mention Thomas
at all, in this I made a mistake. Sorry!

Of course the legend of Thomas' death near Madras is not true, as I think I
made clear in my first message, but it was wise that Bal Prasad did not
vouch for the veracity of his "paraphrase". Even the names of scholars were
wrong: instead of C-J De la Vallee-Poussin and Robert Garbe,  Louis de La
Vallee-Poussin and Richard Garbe.

As to the Acts of Thomas, it is an apocryphal work, and no more history
than other such legends. This kind of literature is common in many
religions. As far as I know, no serious scholar is taking it as part of the
Bible or as a historical source, although it may contains some points
originating in history (such as the name of Gondophares-Gudhaphar). The
point is that it is a genuine work of the fourth century and can be used as
a source for ideas then current among Christians in the West. It is thus
among the earliest sources locating Thomas' mission and its end in India.
But as I said, nothing here points to South India, rather to the Indus
country.

I do agree with Bal Prasad that there is no evidence of Thomas having
travelled to India (only the spurious tradition nevertheless much earlier
than the Portuguese), but I wonder, whether he visited Ethiopia and Arabia
either. The earliest tradition seems to restrict his travels to Edessa (now
Urfa in southeastern Turkey, then a principality under Parthian suzerainty).

Stephens quotes a few "Greek" (mostly Latin) Christian sources on India.
His second extract, Jerome (in Latin) about Pantaenus and Bartholomew hails
from the (Greek) Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius (early 4th century).
Many more passages can be found in the old collection by W. R. Phillipps in
Indian Antiquary 32, 1903, 1-15 and 145-160. It shows that it was common
belief in the West since the 4th century (but not earlier) that Thomas went
to India (though not to the South).

As to Mylapore, attempts to identify it with Calamina, the traditional
place given as Thomas' burial "in India", do not seem convincing. The first
to mention Thomas' grave in Mylapore is thus Marco Polo (3, 18 in Yule -
Cordier) in the 13th century. John of Montecorvino visited a church of
Thomas on way to China in 1292, this probably was in the South. In 1345
John of Marignolli, another Catholic envoy to China, also visited Mylapore.
Thus the Mylapore tradition was earlier than the Portuguese, although they
certainly made much of it.

Michael Rabe asked about the stone cross found near Mylapore. See A. C.
Burnell, Indian Antiquary 3, 1874, 308-316. If anybody knows a more recent
source, please inform.

I was afraid that somebody will take up the story of Jesus visiting India.
There are two traditions, both quite recent. One is propagated by the
Ahmadiyyas, another by the Russian charlatan Notovich about hundred years
ago. I do not know the German book still defending it, but I think G?nter
Gr?nbold, Jesus in Indien. Das Ende einer Legende (Munich 1985) has said
everything that is necessary.

There are at least 10 books and some 50-60 articles about Thomas
traditions, but I think my answer is long enough without listing them. I am
not theologian and not much interested in history of Christian missions, so
I would like to drop the subject now.

Regards

Klaus


Klaus Karttunen
Institute for Asian and African Studies
Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094




From raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE  Wed Jun  9 00:06:42 1999
From: raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE (Raoul Martens)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 17:06:42 -0700
Subject: Historicity of the Flood
Message-ID: <161227050067.23782.11031195683627884458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hindu, Babylonian, Judaic et a. flood-stories are per-
cieved as astronomical myths describing precession as
the slow sinking of stars near horizon into the 'cosmic
water" below horizon (where it was thought to begin).
The observation was not related to any kind of 'zodiac'
something that came into existence much later. (1-4)

Noah's 'ark' = the ship of Utnapishtim/Manu could be the
constellation Triangulum = Sumerian-Akkadian 'mul Apin'
a boatlike triangle, the brightest star of which at the
head of the triangle, rose heliacally at or close to 90
degrees, i.e. the vernal equinoctial point, between ca
4000 to 3000 BC. (actually (and more precisely) during
Noah's 'lifetime' of 950 years acc. to Genesis IX:29).

The myth seems to be contrived by a people living close
to an ocean (in the case of the Hindus southern Sindh).
People living to the north up the Indus and Sarasvati
rivers had another, but analogous, view of precession.
Acc. to the literature re prehistoric Hindu astronomy
RgVeda data caused Tilak and Jacobi, independently of
each other, to their similar opinions that precession
was known in India well before 3000 BC. (5)

Yaska Nirukta 4.4.2 says that Aditi/Devamata = Pollux
indicated autumn equinox but was replaced by Rudra =
Betelgeuse, in Vayu Purana mentioned as the star of
autumn equinox. Indian astronomer S.B. Roy found the
said transition to have occurred in 4730 BC. (6)

Acc. to Mahabharata 3.219.8-11 Rohini = Aldebaran "fell
from the sky" and Krttikas = the Pleiads "went to the
sky", an event that led to a calendar reform: "Abhijit
became envious of elder sister Rohini and went to the
forest to perform penance, wishing to attain seniority.
That constellation fell from the sky. Upon this Brahma
(solstice) made time begin with Dhanista. Formerly time
reckoning used to begin with Rohini. When Indra told
this the Krttikas went to the skies."  (7)

This testifies to the prehistoric importance of preces-
sion, during millenia believed to threaten 'World Order',
later manifested in the Persian Mithraic cult. (8)

(1) de Santillana G. & von Dechend H.: Hamlet's Mill,
 London 1993
(2) Papke, W.: Die Geheime Botschsaft des Gilgamesh,
 Bergish Gladbach (Germany) 1993
(3) Reiche, H.: The language of archaic astronomy, in
 The Astronomy of the Ancients, Cambridge Mass USA 1979
(4) various astronomical computer programs: Dance of the
 Planets, SkyGlobe, Newcomb, Science Software: Astronomy
(5) Chattopadyaya, D.: Making of astronomy in ancient
 India, Cambridge University Press 1989
(6) Roy, S.B.: Prehistoric lunar astronomy, New Dehli 1976
(7) Rajaram, N.S. & Frawley, D.: Vedic Aryans and the Ori-
 gin of Civilization, Quebec 1995 (2nd ed. New Dehli 1997)
(8) Ulansey, D.: The Mithraic Mysteries, Sci. Amer. Dec. 1989

Sincerely Raoul Martens




From thompson at JLC.NET  Tue Jun  8 21:40:59 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 17:40:59 -0400
Subject: Oh so Human
In-Reply-To: <19990608203159.4831.rocketmail@web115.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050073.23782.9927945304883593245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Well, Mr Lighthouser, you showed us in your first post that you were RIGHT
about Harry Falk's personality.

Now you've shown us that you are RIGHT about my personality.

When are you going to show us that you are RIGHT about something Indological?

That might prove to be a little harder for you, but far more useful for the
rest of us.

Don't you think that it would be better to keep this sort of thing off the
list?

GT

At 01:31 PM 6/8/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>Mr. Thompson,
>
>With all do respect, and in the same tenor as your
>message.
>
>You took the bait.
>
>I rest my case.
>
>THANKS! Being right was never so easy.
>
>
>
>
>




From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  9 01:48:27 1999
From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 18:48:27 -0700
Subject: Gentoo studies (details on SR)
Message-ID: <161227050077.23782.10553265249375376415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

      Having gone thru' the Indology archives, I do not see
      Paul write much about Sanskrit and precious little
      on our Rigveda itself! Is he a faculty of Sanskrit
      or any other Indian language/s?

      Sincerely,
      Prasad


<<<<
Well, I hope that the list will now see that Paul Kekai Manansala's
memory is rather poor, and I encourage everyone to excuse him.

As for Paul himself, I encourage him to re-read not only his own book,
but the Rgveda as well.

GT

At 08:24 AM 6/3/1999 -0700, you wrote:
 >George Thompson wrote:
 >>
 >> What kind of argument is this?:
 >>
 >> >I can remember a river mentioned in the Rgveda
 >> >as evidence of knowledge of a foreign "Aryan" homeland based on
 >> >sound resemblance alone.
 >>
 >> Can you remember anything else?
 >>
 >
 >I can remember that was Witzel's argument, which gets an "F"
 >in my book.
 >
 >Regards,
 >Paul Kekai Manansala
 >>>>



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From thompson at JLC.NET  Tue Jun  8 23:15:13 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 19:15:13 -0400
Subject: An Iranian root brb-
In-Reply-To: <000701beaf9c$e1f5e4a0$905919d4@default>
Message-ID: <161227050075.23782.16627966190261397140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list,

I have become interested in finding attested forms of this root, brb- 'to
lead', proposed by Bailey in BSOAS 23, cited by Mayrhofer [KEWA 2.444].
Bailey cites a Buddhist Sogdian root BrB-, with this meaning, as well as a
Khotanese Saka form bi'ra, 'rope, cable, cord.'

I am interested in determining whether or not this may be related to the
curiously isolated RV forms:

bRba'duktha = hapax at RV 8.32.10, epithet of Indra.

bRbu'H = name of a Vedic patron [cf. his dAnastuti at RV 6.45.31-33].

bR'bUkam = another hapax, at RV 10.27.23; meaning unclear, possibly of
Munda origin [thus Kuiper].

Does anyone have any insights into this problem?

Thanks in advance,

GT




From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE  Tue Jun  8 17:30:44 1999
From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 99 19:30:44 +0200
Subject: a question as to Atisha's works in Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <"Ilona V. Manevskaya"'s message of "Mon, 7 Jun 1999 23:29:02              +0400">
Message-ID: <161227050064.23782.3279939507240510445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Ilona V. Manevskaya" <manevsk at IM3868.SPB.EDU> writes:

> we are interested in sanskrit original works by Atisha; we are aware
> of Bodhi-patha-pradipa restored from the Tibetan but we would like
> to know about any his works that survived in Sanskrit;

So far I know none of his works survived in Sanskrit. By the way,
there are -- at least -- two Sanskrit "restorations" of the
Bodhipathapradipa; see the reviews of Helmut Eimer for a critical
evaluation of them:

        -Eimer, H.: On Atisa's Bodhipathapradipa. In: Bulletin of
         Tibetology. N.S. 1985, No. 1, pp. 15-18
        -Eimer, H.: Again: on Atisa's Bodhipathapradipa. In: Bulletin
         of Tibetology. N.S. 1986, No. 2, pp. 5-15

Probably you know Eimer's critical edition of the (Tibetan) text.

> we'd also like to know whether his Bodhisattva-maNi-AvalI preserved
> in Sanskrit or not.

It was written or composed around 1043 in Bsam-yas, i.e. in Tibet. One
may ask the question: was it written in Sanskrit or in Tibetan? Eimer
states in his article: "Die urspruengliche Reihenfolge der Verszeilen
in der Bodhisattvamanyavli." In: Zentralasiatische Studien 15 (1981),
pp. 323-329, that it is younger than the Vimalaratnalekha which is
partly identical or similar (now available in the edition of S.
Dietz). In the named article Eimer lists the known (Tibetan) witnesses
of the Bodhisattvamanyavli.

Peter Wyzlic
--
Peter Wyzlic                            Indologisches Seminar
                                        Universitaet Bonn




From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM  Wed Jun  9 07:01:12 1999
From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 99 03:01:12 -0400
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227050080.23782.10093176877124157829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On June 7, 1999, Paolo Magnone wrote

>In the extant account, the "ark" is not really a ship, but a
parallelepiped, 
>quite unsuitable, one would think, for navigation.

On the contrary, Frederick A. Filby points out that the Ark's length,
breadth, height of 300, 50, 30 cubits are in almost the same ratio as for
the ship 'Great Britain' (designed 1844): 322, 51, 32.5 feet.

Reference: Filby, F.A., The Flood Reconsidered.  Zondervan Publishing
House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1971, p.93.

Tony Stone




From pventhb at XS4ALL.NL  Wed Jun  9 07:20:54 1999
From: pventhb at XS4ALL.NL (Th. de Bruijn)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 99 09:20:54 +0200
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227050082.23782.9494023211203973571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

As I am organizing a seminar on modern Indian literature in Leiden, The Netherlands, I would be very grateful if there is anyone on this list who happens to know an address of the Hindi writer Krishna Baldev Vaid, and of the critic N.S. Jagannathan, who writes regularly for The Book Review?

Many thanks in advance

Thomas de Bruijn 
IIAS, Leiden

P.S.You can also reply to any one of these addresses
pventhb at xs4all.nl
tbruijn at rullet.leidenuniv.nl
thbruijn at hotmail.com




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Wed Jun  9 08:34:13 1999
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 99 09:34:13 +0100
Subject: Bengali Buddhists
In-Reply-To: <19990608170127.25581.rocketmail@send304.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050088.23782.13338891332551038718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan asks:
>Are there any studies (historical, anthropological) on
>the Buddhists from (East) Bengal? Are they Buddhists for
>millennia?

Heinz Bechert and Gustav Roth have studied Buddhism in the eastern part of
Bengal during a journey they undertook in 1967. A detailed account of the
results of their study among the BaruAs, CAkmAs and Marmas has been
published by Bechert in Beitraege zur Indienforschung (Festschrift
Waldschmidt), Berlin 1977 (= Veroeffentlichungen des Museums fuer Indische
Kunst Berlin, Vol. 4, p. 45-66): "Zur Geschichte des TheravAda-Buddhismus
in Ostbengalen."
According to this account, the TheravAda-Buddhism of Bengal in its present
form is the result of a reform that took place in the second part of the
19th century. As a consequence of this reform, most written sources of the
older Buddhism in this area were destroyed so that it is difficult to trace
the older history. The tantric Buddhism of this area disappeared by merging
with tantric Hinduism. Other, popular forms of Buddhism (without ordinated
monks), are connected with originally Tibeto-Burmese speaking people from
Arakan (now in Burma) which eventually switched over to Bengali. The
history of the various Buddhist groups of the area is both complicated and
obscure, and for the details I can only refer to Bechert's article.
   For more references (in English) see Lubomir Ondracka's communication to
our List.
  Regards,
  G.v.Simson




From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ  Wed Jun  9 10:00:49 1999
From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 99 10:00:49 +0000
Subject: Bengali Buddhists
In-Reply-To: <19990608170127.25581.rocketmail@send304.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050085.23782.8876052853669944354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Are there any studies (historical, anthropological) on
> the Buddhists from (East) Bengal? Are they Buddhists for
> millennia?

Contemporary anthropological study is:
Chittaranjan PATRA, Present Buddhist Tribals and Viharas in West Bengal.
Calcutta : Sarkar & Co., 1991

Short but useful survey is the chapter "Buddhism in:
Benoy Gopal RAY, Religious Movements in Modern Bengal.
Santiniketan : Visva-Bharati, 1965. pp. 161-172.

There are many books and articles on the history of Buddhism in Bengal,
you can see e.g.:
Gayatri SEN MAJUMDAR, Buddhism in Ancient Bengal.
Calcutta : Navana, 1983

Narendranath BHATTACHARYYA, Metamorphoses of Buddhism in Medieval Bengal.
In: Bhaskar CHATTOPADHYAY (ed), Culture of Bengal through the Ages.
Burdwan : University of Burdwan, 1988.

For related informations see:
Maheswar NEOG: Religions of the North-East.
New Delhi : Munshiram Manoharlal, 1984. pp.62-104.

N. N. BHATTACHARYYA, Religious Culture of North-Eastern India.
New Delhi : Manohar, 1995. pp. 117-140.

--


---------------------------------------------
 Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies
 Charles University
 Namesti Jana Palacha 2
 110 00 Prague 1
 Czech Republic
---------------------------------------------
 e-mail:   ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz
---------------------------------------------




From bsatola at VELA.FILG.UJ.EDU.PL  Wed Jun  9 11:17:59 1999
From: bsatola at VELA.FILG.UJ.EDU.PL (Barbara Satola)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 99 11:17:59 +0000
Subject: Hindi & Sanskrit personal names
In-Reply-To: <35ee5c9b.450525790@mail.wxs.nl>
Message-ID: <161227050090.23782.11630812629235672793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Members of Indology List,
I am looking for information on Hindi as well as Sanskrit personal
names. I am very interested in morphological, semantical and
etymological analysis of such names. I would be very grateful for any
suggestions.
Yours sincerely,
Barbara Satola-Sliwa

My e-mail address:
bsatola at vela.filg.uj.edu.pl

My post address is:
Jagiellonian University
Institute of Oriental Philology
al. Mickiewicza 9/11
Krakow
Poland




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  9 19:41:13 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 99 12:41:13 -0700
Subject: Kuwi. kaja = big and Skt. gaja = elephant
Message-ID: <161227050097.23782.15753026310102543333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

V. Keerthi Kumar  in his paper (at
http://www.datanumeric.com/dravidian/index.html)
on the relationship between Dravidian and IE cites the words
from DEDR
gaja = big (1093-Pe) : kaja = big (1093- Kuwi).

Is there any relationship with Skt. gaja for elephant
given the lexical and semantic proximity here?

Regards,
Chandra

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From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU  Wed Jun  9 12:40:49 1999
From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 99 14:40:49 +0200
Subject: Silence
Message-ID: <161227050092.23782.1255904697102894259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friends,

once upon a time... I came home from school rather annoyed. 'Some boys keep
calling me names!' I beat them up but still they go on. My brother suggested
that the only way to avoid this is complete silence. Do not react at all!
I tried. It was very hard, but I could do it (I was 11 then). And it worked.
You are older now: it will not be difficult. If you do not want to try it
for yourselves, do it for me, please.
Do not answer silly (idiotic - impolite - etc.) messages. A single line is
too much.

Thank you,
Ferenc




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jun  9 19:17:39 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 99 15:17:39 -0400
Subject: Shells, starfishes, and sea urchins in Ayurveda
Message-ID: <161227050095.23782.8415030389814462209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A patron is interested in interpreting the import and export
statistics for various sorts of shells in the trade of India.  I told
him that I was under the impression that powdered and/or calcined
conchshells are used in Ayurveda. Could someone tell me where I can
tell him to go to find out these uses?  Also, are there such uses for
other molluscs and for ichonoderms such as starfishes and sea urchins?
 He is interested only in the uses of the shells of the animals, not
of their flesh.

I also said amongst the economic uses of conchshells were to make
ritual trumpets and libation vessels and to make bangles, especially
in Bengal where they are required for Hindu married women.  There is
also a certain amount of ornamental shellcraft and the sale of the
shelves just as attractive objects.  Can anyone suggest other economic
uses of shells besides these?  (The use of cowries is irrelevant
because they are a different line in the statistics.)


Thanks,

Allen




Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 10 11:49:19 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 04:49:19 -0700
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227050118.23782.5019920184136160924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

(some mythological motifs common for IVC and ancient Middle Eastern
art have been discovered and studied already by Parpola,
During-Caspers and other scholars).

Some references, please.

Greetings,
N. Ganesan


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From yaap at XS4ALL.NL  Thu Jun 10 04:15:30 1999
From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 06:15:30 +0200
Subject: CSX+ fonts & cross-platform email exchange
Message-ID: <161227050099.23782.6655743976153736049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Windows and Mac versions of the CSX+ fonts seem to have
identical encodings, in contrast to what is usual.

Data based on CSX+ fonts, when exchanged across platforms
through email, gets scrambled due to the usual automagical
MIME re-encoding.

Any workarounds for this problem?


Jaap Pranger

--




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 10 14:21:26 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 07:21:26 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050130.23782.8284966137708293424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lars Martin Fosse [mailto:lmfosse at ONLINE.NO]
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 6:28 AM
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
>
>
> >
>
> Samar Abbas wrote:
>
> > Is the word "Sanskrit" itself of Dravidian etymology ?
> >
> > The word "samskrutam" has the suffix -am, indicating a
> Dravidian origin of
> > the word.
>
> that the ending -am is a very common ending for skt. nouns.
>
> >
> > Since 30-50 % of the words of Sanskrit are of Dravidian
> etymology anyway,
> > it would not be surprising if the word `Sanskrit' itself
> was of Dravidian
> > origin.
> >
>


In this regard, a serious question along the lines of dropping
the final "a"  in Skt word.

 The final "-am" also gets dropped.
e.g., kumArasambhavam would become "kumArsambhav" in Hindi (and other
north Indian IE languages too?)(kumAr + sambahv).

*When* did this start happening, if at all the original Skt. version
was ever adhered to?

Having lived in Delhi for 7 years, I had feeling that the northerners
seem to feel that the "a"s and "am"s "bloating" the original Skt words
were too South Indian or Dravidian; they seem to have a linguistic urge
to get to a version that has a clipped accent to it.


Regards
Chandra


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From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 10 14:24:37 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 07:24:37 -0700
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227050125.23782.1648781437508611545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yaroslav V. Vassilkov [mailto:yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU]
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 5:10 AM
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: Historicity of The Flood
>
>>
> There is one significant difference: Sanskrit versions
> contain no mention of
> any bird sent to look for a dry land. However birds appear in
> some tribal
> Indian flood myths: e.g., God sends two birds to see are
> there any survivors
> after the flood, the birds perch on the "ark" (hollow log)
> and hear the voices
> of children (survivors) inside (Kamars). It is tempting to
> view in this light
> the well-known IVC representation of a ship with two birds on it.
>
> Even without the "bird" motif, there are too many
> similiarities between Indian
> and Mesopotamian flood myths and this points to some kind of genetic
> connection.
>

I think there *may* be a bird motif in the Tamil version of a *similar*
incident
described in the cangkam text (<3rd century AD?)
paripADal poem #3 addressed to tirumAl (viSNu):
"
uzi Azik kaN iru nilam uru kezu
kEzalAy maruppin2 uzutOy enavum
mA vicumpu ozuku pun2al vaRaLa an2n2ac
cEvalAyc ciRakarp pularttiyOy en2avum" (paripADal:3:...)

kEzal = wild boar; an2n2ac cEval = male swan;
txln: " ...[you] who, as the fearsome wild boar, plowed the earth
during the apocalyptic flood with the tusk and
who, as the male swan, dried [the earth]
the waters poured by the great skies  with the wings".

Regards,
Chandra



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From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU  Thu Jun 10 11:32:16 1999
From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph G. Walser)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 07:32:16 -0400
Subject: Date of Nagarjuna
Message-ID: <161227050113.23782.12612552605438284182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Listmembers,
Can anyone recommend any recent (1990- ) Japanese language sources
discussing the date or geographical location of Nagarjuna. Any suggestions
would be appreciated.

Joseph Walser
Dept. of Comparative Religion
Tufts University
Medford, MA.
(617) 627-2322
fax: (617) 627-3191




From pventhb at XS4ALL.NL  Thu Jun 10 06:56:56 1999
From: pventhb at XS4ALL.NL (Th. de Bruijn)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 08:56:56 +0200
Subject: Address K.B. Vaid and N.S. Jagannathan
Message-ID: <161227050103.23782.12632867505123794624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

With apologies, the same message, but now with a correct Subject-field.
Th. de B.

Dear Indologists,

As I am organizing a seminar on modern Indian literature in Leiden, The Netherlands, I would be very grateful if there is anyone on this list who happens to know an address of the Hindi writer Krishna Baldev Vaid, and of the critic N.S. Jagannathan, who writes regularly for The Book Review?

Many thanks in advance

Thomas de Bruijn 
IIAS, Leiden

P.S.You can also reply to any one of these addresses
pventhb at xs4all.nl
tbruijn at rullet.leidenuniv.nl
thbruijn at hotmail.com




From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jun 10 04:59:44 1999
From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 10:29:44 +0530
Subject: Naadi Shastra
Message-ID: <161227050101.23782.6932251804650856343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To the extent I know:

1. naadi shastra was written by different authors like Agasthya,
   Vasishta maharishi and some more rishis (I can not recall
   all of them) i.e, Agastiya naadi shastra, Vasishta naadi
   shastra, etc.

2. They had written some formulas on future prediction for
   every individual to be born on earth.

3. naadi shastra can be seen at vaidheeswaran koil and
   Chidambaram (both are located in Tamil nadu).

4. As can be imagined, naadi shastras was written on palm leaves.

5. The visitors can get responses to their problems in various
   formats, for example, in writing, on audio tapes, pre-printed.

P. Ranganathan

stephens wrote:
>
> I would like to know who the author/s of Naadi Shastra is/are. I
> was told that every individual born on earth has something written
> about them in the Naadi Shastra. Is this so?
>
> Sujatha
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Rabe <mrabe at ARTIC.EDU>
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 6:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Historicity of The Flood
>
> > Is it also the case that that purana of the future _foretells_
> > the reign of queen Victoria? Chapter and verse citations would
> > be appreciated for both passages.




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 10 17:33:08 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 10:33:08 -0700
Subject: Hindi & Sanskrit personal names
Message-ID: <161227050153.23782.658175966435523490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is a vry common book on 'Hindu names on Maneka Gandhi' which is used
by many in Delhi to name their new borns. Please refer that, although
academically, you might not find it very rigorous.

VA
----------
 > From: Barbara Satola <bsatola at VELA.FILG.UJ.EDU.PL>
 > Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 4:47 PM
 >
 > Dear Members of Indology List,
 > I am looking for information on Hindi as well as Sanskrit personal
 > names. I am very interested in morphological, semantical and
 > etymological analysis of such names. I would be very grateful for any
 > suggestions.
 > Yours sincerely,
 > Barbara Satola-Sliwa
 >
 > My e-mail address:
 > bsatola at vela.filg.uj.edu.pl
 >
 > My post address is:
 > Jagiellonian University
 > Institute of Oriental Philology
 > al. Mickiewicza 9/11
 > Krakow
 > Poland



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From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM  Thu Jun 10 17:47:10 1999
From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 10:47:10 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050156.23782.1741698570516474472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> Claiming that Sanskrit is of Dravidian origin undoubtedly creates happiness in
> the South.

Wonder whereever you got this idea...  makes no sense whatsoever,  more so since
you seem to be generalizing way out of line here.

-Srini.




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 10 18:35:08 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 11:35:08 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
Message-ID: <161227050159.23782.2812076071123038390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 >> Since 30-50 % of the words of Sanskrit are of Dravidian etymology
 >>anyway,

 >And many other words are of Austric or other etymology making
 >up the vast majority of Sanskrit words.

  This is a basic construct in Indology. Over the last century,
Indologists are well learned in Sanskrit (because of the IE
connection). However, the widespread awareness on Dravidian
in the formation of Indian culture is still lacking.

So, when linguists-sanskritists look at Dictionaries of Munda
and DED, they tend to give equal weightage to both. Because
they do not know any Dravidian or Munda language, they are
experts in Sanskrit only. What they fail to recognize is the
written traditions of Dravidian (atleast 2300 years in case
of Tamil; All early inscriptions from
2nd century BCE in Tamil Nadu are in Tamil, Not in Prakrit)
The contrast is that Munda languages are recorded  in 19th century
by the British. I believe Kuiper's influence is significant
in raising Munda's weightage.

However, as far as IVC, Munda's weight should not be great;
Otherwise, we will have Austronesian stretching from
Afghanistan, IVC and Malaysia all the way to Champa/Vietnam
(before sinicized Vietnamese got there)!!

Austric is too small geographically and historically in India;
It never developed a civilization comparable to Dravidian.

Regards,
N. Ganesan



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From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Jun 10 15:38:41 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 11:38:41 -0400
Subject: Shells in Ayurveda, addendum re crabs
Message-ID: <161227050133.23782.555541895303571597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In my posting "Shells, starfishes, and sea urchins in Ayurveda" I
meant to include that my patron is also interested in the economic
uses in Ayurveda or otherwise of the shells of crabs and other
crustacea.

Thanks for any help.  I will be looking at Watt's old publications on
economic products of India and books on Aryurvedic materia medica.

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From HubeyH at MAIL.MONTCLAIR.EDU  Thu Jun 10 15:46:10 1999
From: HubeyH at MAIL.MONTCLAIR.EDU (H. Mark Hubey)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 11:46:10 -0400
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227050137.23782.9285696243794135443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here is another one:

1. ME: Abraham, Ibrahim, Avram. Finds a ram with its paws caught
in a thicket. A goat with its front legs caught in a tree is also
found in Sumerian.

2. INDIA: Brahma finds a rhinoceros with its horn stuck in a tree.


"Yaroslav V. Vassilkov" wrote:

> Here are some other similiarities between Ancient Indian and Mesopotamian
> myths:
>
> 1. Both INDIA and MESOPOTAMIA: a pious man is warned about the flood.
> A god/fish gives him advice to build an ark/ship. The difference between two
> forms of a benefactor is diminished by the fact that Sumerian/Mesopotamian
> god Ea/Enki sometimes appears in the form of a fish.
> 2. MESOPOTAMIA: the pious man takes on board "the seed of souls of every kind";
> INDIA: Manu takes on board "seeds of all kinds" (Mbh).
> 3. Number "7" plays some role in both myths, MIDDLE EAST: 7 months of the
> flood (Bible), 7 nights of the flood, 7+7 incence-burners used in the final
> sacrifice (Sumer); INDIA: 7 sages aboard the ship; 7 clouds of Doomsday flood
> the earth.
> 4. Both INDIA and MESOPOTAMIA: landing at the top of a mountain.
> 5. Both: the final sacrifice. MIDDLE EAST: the God "sensed the smell of
> Noah's sacrifice" (Bible), gods like flies sense the smell and come together
> to Utnapishti's sacrifice; INDIA: Manu poured into the water clarified butter,
> milk etc.: out of it arose IDA (ILA), soon after that "Mitra and VaruNa met
> her", i.e. the sacrificial offering (as in Mesopotamian accounts too)
> reached the gods.
>         I would be glad ti know what the participants of this discussion think
> about my "list of similiarities".
>
>         Best regards,
>                                                 Yaroslav Vassilkov

--
Sincerely,
M. Hubey
hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu
http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey




From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Jun 10 15:53:35 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 11:53:35 -0400
Subject: Kashmir pamphlet for exchange
Message-ID: <161227050139.23782.4451106032172822675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Any library with an exchange relationship with the Library of Congress
is welcome to one of two extra copies of the following:

Kashmir : Foreign press comment
v. 5
New Delhi : Information Service of India

OCLC shows U. Wisconsin having this title (vols. not specified).

It does not appear in the fiche collection  Political pamphlets from
the Indian subcontinent. {Bethesda, MD} : University Publication{s} of
America, c1990, produced from materials in LC's collections. I have
not checked whether it appears in the microfiche collections on
Kashmir that LC-New Delhi has produced.

Allen

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From ssa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Thu Jun 10 19:22:55 1999
From: ssa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Sally Sutherland Goldman)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 12:22:55 -0700
Subject: Query on vyAsa quote
Message-ID: <161227050168.23782.3522481222188135633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anyone give a source for the often quoted phrase.

vyAsocchiSTaM jagat sarvam . . .

It does not appear in the PratIka index of the MahAbhArata

Thanks.

Sally J. Sutherland Goldman
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
University of California at Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
ssa at violet.berkeley.edu
Phone:(510) 642-2409
Fax:   (510) 643-2959




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jun 10 10:27:41 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 12:27:41 +0200
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050111.23782.2025269065266431432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>

Samar Abbas wrote:

> Is the word "Sanskrit" itself of Dravidian etymology ?
>
> The word "samskrutam" has the suffix -am, indicating a Dravidian origin of
> the word. Is it possible to trace a Dravidian origin for the prefix
> samskr- ? Perhaps, Shimoga (Kann. place), Shanmugam (Tam. name), Shan
> (Burmic) are the sources.
>

Samar, why don't you get yourself Colson's Teach Yourself Sanskrit? Then you
would immediately know that "Sanskrtam" has nothing to do with Dravidian, and
that the ending -am is a very common ending for skt. nouns.

>
> Since 30-50 % of the words of Sanskrit are of Dravidian etymology anyway,
> it would not be surprising if the word `Sanskrit' itself was of Dravidian
> origin.
>

Claiming that Sanskrit is of Dravidian origin undoubtedly creates happiness in
the South. However, there is no foundation for such a claim. The similarities
between Sanskrit and Dravidian languages can be explained as area linguistic
features. All this has been discussed on Indology on a regular basis and you
should consult the archives. You might also want to read an introduction to
comparative Indo-European linguistics, and you might also want to read Dixon's
The Rise and Fall of Languages (a short, but informative book).

Best regards,

Lars Martin




From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU  Thu Jun 10 17:33:57 1999
From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 12:33:57 -0500
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
In-Reply-To: <375FE7EF.A364BF66@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050149.23782.8716601119745279069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Not to belabor the obvious, but here goes:

There are good reasons for taking historical linguistics and philology
seriously, because in many cases that's the only way we can distinguish
between accidental resemblances and borrowings on one hand and genuine
cognates or inherited words on the other.

Skt. _saMskRta-_ (stem), nom./acc. sg. _saMskRtam_, is transparently
derived from the Skt. morphemes _sam-_ 'together, complete(ly)' and
_(s)kR-_ 'make, do', resulting in the compound meaning 'polished, refined'.
_SaMskRta-_ thus is differentiated from _praakRta-_ 'basic, natural, etc.'
and, by implication, 'vernacular, not refined'.  Both the shape and the
meaning of the word, thus, are explained by derivation from Sanskrit
morphemes, which themselves are of Proto-Indo-European heritage.  Note
further that the _-am_ of the word is morphologically complex, consisting
of the stem suffix _-a-_ and the case ending _-m_, both again of
Proto-Indo-European heritage (this is what Fosse alludes to by comparing
the Latin ending _-um_ and the Greek _-on_).  It's similarity to
_sanmuk/gam_ thus is accidental.

But more than that, although Tam. etc. _saNmuk/gam_ may sound like a
quintessentially Dravidian word, and its _-am_ certainly is Dravidian, the
stem is derivable from Sanskrit elements (SaNmukha- < SaT 'six' and mukha-
'face, head') and not from Dravidian or Austric. Here again, serious
linguistic research leads us to question assumptions based on superficial
inspection.

This is not to deny the existence of words of Dravidian or Austric origin
in Sanskrit.  There has been a lengthy discussion on this issue, both for
the earliest, Vedic period and for later times; the upshot being that there
are words which everybody would agree to be of Dravidian or Austric origin
(e.g. Skt. _laa.ngala-_ 'plough') and others on which opinion is divided.
(Words of the latter type, of course, cannot be used either for or against
Dravidian or Austric origin of particular Sanskrit words.)

Significantly, the vast majority of the basic lexical and morphological
elements of Sanskrit is of Indo-European origin, and the corresponding
words or morphemes in Dravidian and Austric languages are markedly
different.  Consider for instance the Dravidian and Sanskrit words for 'I'
and 'and, also':  naan : aham, -um : ca.  This difference precludes the
wholesale derivation either of Sanskrit from Dravidian or Austric (Samar
Abbas's favorite proposal) or of Dravidian or Austric from Sanskrit
(favored by people like Frawley or Rajaram).

As they say in the vernacular, "facts is facts".

abhivaadaye sarvaan,

Hans Henrich Hock

(asuraa maa bhuumety adhyeyaM vyaakaraNam)


>> >
>> > Samar, why don't you get yourself Colson's Teach Yourself Sanskrit?
>>Then you
>> > would immediately know that "Sanskrtam" has nothing to do with
>>Dravidian, and
>> > that the ending -am is a very common ending for skt. nouns.
>> >
>>
>> Yes, but Sanskrit is an Indian language.  Maybe it would be more
>> relevant if -am was a common ending for IE nouns.
>
>That, Paul, is precisely the point: -am is the Sanskrit equivalent of
>Latin -um and
>Greek -on. The I.E. ending *-om becomes -am in Sanskrit.
>
>>
>>
>> And many other words are of Austric or other etymology making
>> up the vast majority of Sanskrit words.
>
>Oh dear.
>
>Lars Martin


Hans Henrich Hock, Director
Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies
220 International Studies Building, MC-489
910 S. Fifth Street
Champaign IL 61820
217-265-5016, 217-244-7331
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e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu
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From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Thu Jun 10 09:09:52 1999
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 13:09:52 +0400
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227050115.23782.6108144381214112040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would rather support Michael Rabe's position, stressing

>> striking similarities that ... exist between the Matsya-avatar stories and
>> the Middle Eastern references to an ark

and object to Paolo Magnone's view,
acc. to which

> different flood traditions may have independently developed the
> idea of an "ark"; and ... the similarities do not go much
>beyond that.

Here are some other similiarities between Ancient Indian and Mesopotamian
myths:

1. Both INDIA and MESOPOTAMIA: a pious man is warned about the flood.
A god/fish gives him advice to build an ark/ship. The difference between two
forms of a benefactor is diminished by the fact that Sumerian/Mesopotamian
god Ea/Enki sometimes appears in the form of a fish.
2. MESOPOTAMIA: the pious man takes on board "the seed of souls of every kind";
INDIA: Manu takes on board "seeds of all kinds" (Mbh).
3. Number "7" plays some role in both myths, MIDDLE EAST: 7 months of the
flood (Bible), 7 nights of the flood, 7+7 incence-burners used in the final
sacrifice (Sumer); INDIA: 7 sages aboard the ship; 7 clouds of Doomsday flood
the earth.
4. Both INDIA and MESOPOTAMIA: landing at the top of a mountain.
5. Both: the final sacrifice. MIDDLE EAST: the God "sensed the smell of
Noah's sacrifice" (Bible), gods like flies sense the smell and come together
to Utnapishti's sacrifice; INDIA: Manu poured into the water clarified butter,
milk etc.: out of it arose IDA (ILA), soon after that "Mitra and VaruNa met
her", i.e. the sacrificial offering (as in Mesopotamian accounts too)
reached the gods.

There is one significant difference: Sanskrit versions contain no mention of
any bird sent to look for a dry land. However birds appear in some tribal
Indian flood myths: e.g., God sends two birds to see are there any survivors
after the flood, the birds perch on the "ark" (hollow log) and hear the voices
of children (survivors) inside (Kamars). It is tempting to view in this light
the well-known IVC representation of a ship with two birds on it.

Even without the "bird" motif, there are too many similiarities between Indian
and Mesopotamian flood myths and this points to some kind of genetic
connection.

         Indian myth has no Indo-European parallels. It was most probably
borrowed from a non-Aryan source (IVC heritage?). It is worth notice that
in its earliest form (Zatapatha BrAhmaNa) the fish appears without any name,
is not identified with anyone of Vedic gods, and this means probably that
the ZatBr story is a first stage in the process of assimilation of a foreign
(substratum?) myth. The similiarity between the hypothetical IVC flood myth
and the Mesopotamian one would not be a surprise for us (some mythological
motifs common for IVC and ancient Middle Eastern art have been discovered and
studied already by Parpola, During-Caspers and other scholars).

        I would be glad ti know what the participants of this discussion think
about my "list of similiarities".

        Best regards,
                                                Yaroslav Vassilkov




From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM  Thu Jun 10 20:12:42 1999
From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 13:12:42 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050177.23782.6209335578164530773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> > > Claiming that Sanskrit is of Dravidian origin undoubtedly creates happiness in
> > > the South.
> >
> > Wonder whereever you got this idea...  makes no sense whatsoever,  more so since
> > you seem to be generalizing way out of line here.
>
> I may have been out of line. However, I have seen attempts on the Internet to prove
> that Indo-European languages descend from Tamil, which of course also means that
> Sanskrit must descend from Tamil, and ideas about Tamil as a kind adi-language have
> been launched in the context of the Dravidian movement. But you are right, I should
> not generalize, since evidently not everyone in the South shares these ideas. My
> apologies.
>
> Lars Martin Fosse

Thanks for the clarification...  I haven't seen such attempts,   but these must indeed
be miniscule,  and can be dismissed as very late and violent reactions,  indeed,  to
the contention that Sanskrit is the root of all Indian languages.

These days in general,   whatever category of South Indians (more specifically,
Tamils)  you consider,   ranging from the obnoxiously Sanskritic to the irritatingly
Dravidian,   we are content keeping the linguistic families separate.

-Srini.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 10 20:46:09 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 13:46:09 -0700
Subject: Is  "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050185.23782.4091695568447463282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>The word "samskrutam" has the suffix -am, indicating a Dravidian origin of
>the word. Is it possible to trace a Dravidian origin for the prefix
>samskr- ? Perhaps, Shimoga (Kann. place), Shanmugam (Tam. name), Shan
>(Burmic) are the sources.
>

I thought the frivolousness of this fruit of a fertile imagination would be
obvious to everybody. Come on, from Shimoga to Shanmugam to Shan to
Sanskrit? I can't believe that some of our learned regular contributors are
taking this so seriously, instead of simply recommending Linguistics 0.1.

Vidyasankar


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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 10 20:48:04 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 13:48:04 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050183.23782.2095754179709802288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- George Thompson <thompson at JLC.NET> wrote:

> Finally, this figure of 5 % includes borrowings from one or more other
> languages that are otherwise unknown to us [see the 'language x'' posited
> by Masica, accd to whom possibly one third of the Hindi lexicon may be
> borrowed from this unknown source].

If Dravidian linguists take a look at those words, they may well turn out to
be from their specialty. Sure, the 33% words from 'language x' (unknown)
will come down substantially.



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From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Thu Jun 10 12:27:09 1999
From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 14:27:09 +0200
Subject: looking for article
Message-ID: <161227050120.23782.4758207006635576042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am looking for the following article:

Ashok Aklujkar: "Praamaan.ya in the philosophy of the Grammarians".

This article is referred to in Aklujkar's "The number of pramaan.as
according to Bhartr.hari" (WZKS 33/1989), where it is mentioned as
scheduled to appear in a felicitation volume in New Delhi, 1988. I would
like to know whether it was ever published, and if so, where/when ...

Any information will be greatly appreciated,

--
Birgit Kellner
Institut f. Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Institute for Tibetan and
Buddhist Studies
Universitaet Wien / Vienna University




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 10 22:17:44 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 15:17:44 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
Message-ID: <161227050202.23782.589056195100981076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<<
It is good that you pointed this out. What I said here is wrong.
I meant that one third *of foreign words* in Hindi cannot be
attributed to Dravidian or Munda, but rather to this language x.
I did not mean one third of all Hindi words.

These borrowed terms tend to be agricultural terms, by the way.
>>>

Dear George,

Is there a word list of the agricultural terms
that Masica talks about?

Thanks,
N. Ganesan


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From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Thu Jun 10 09:56:21 1999
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 15:26:21 +0530
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
In-Reply-To: <l03130309b384b5c64846@[194.109.141.44]>
Message-ID: <161227050106.23782.16974465252209721654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is the word "Sanskrit" itself of Dravidian etymology ?

The word "samskrutam" has the suffix -am, indicating a Dravidian origin of
the word. Is it possible to trace a Dravidian origin for the prefix
samskr- ? Perhaps, Shimoga (Kann. place), Shanmugam (Tam. name), Shan
(Burmic) are the sources.

Since 30-50 % of the words of Sanskrit are of Dravidian etymology anyway,
it would not be surprising if the word `Sanskrit' itself was of Dravidian
origin.

Has any work been done on this kind of etymology ?

Samar




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 10 22:43:09 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 15:43:09 -0700
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227050213.23782.11414572329611918312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Apart from the Tevaram legends where the town cIkAzi floats
during pralaya times and Shiva plays his veena to save the
world, CilappatikAram and MaNimEkalai have flood legends too.

There is another famous Flood legend (7-8th century CE).
For a good analysis:
D. Shulman, The Tamil flood-myths and the CaGkam legend,
J. of Tamil studies, 14, Dec. 1978, p. 10-31
K. Zvelebil, Lexicon of Tamil literature, E.J. Brill, 1995,
p.108, "[Shulman] finds close connection between Tamil
flood myths and the legends of the birth of Tamil poetry
and culture".

K. Zvelebil, The Smile of Murugan on Tamil literature of
South India, E. J. Brill, 1973, Chapter IV, The CaGkam legend,
The Texts, p. 45-64
p. 47
" According to Nakkirar's account, there were three 'academies'
(talaiccaGkam, iTaiccaGkam, kaTaiccaGkam). The first Sangam, whose
seat was Southern Maturai, now submerged into the Sea
(kaTal koLLappaTTa maturai), lasted 4440 years, and 4449 poets
took part in it; the members included gods and sages: 'Siva,
Muruka, Kubera and Agastya. Its grammar was Akattiyam.

  The second Sangam, situated in KapATapuram (cf. Valmiki's
Ramayana, KiSk. 42:13) also submerged in the sea, lasted for 3700
years and included 3700 poets; it had five grammars as norms
among others Akattiyam and TolkAppiyam.

  The third Sangam, situated in today's Maturai (Uttara or Upper
Maturai) lasted for 1850 years under 49 kings beginning with the
Lame Tiru MaaRan (MuTattirumARan2) and ending with Ukkira
Peruvazhuti; its 449 poets formed a body presided ny NakkIrar.
The two normative grammars of this Academy were Akattiyam
and TolkAppiyam."

For the Pandyan land along with the legendary city,
Southern Maturai that got submerged by the sea, see:
H. Scharfe, Tolkappiyam studies,
in German scholars on India, vol. I, Varanasi, 1973, p. 268-278.

For Tamil sangam flood legends,
1)T. G. Aravamuthan, The Oldest account of the Tamil academies,
JOR (Madras), 1930, p. 183-201, p. 289-317

2) K. V. Zvelebil, The earliest account of the Tamil
academies, IIJ, xv, 2, 1973, p. 109-135

3) K. V. Zvelebil, The Cagkam legend, p. 55-61,
in Tamil literature, 1975, Section 5.4

4) K. V. Zvelebil, Brief Prolegomena to Early Tamil literary
history: iRaiyan2Ar, tarumi, nakkIrar
JRAS, 1986, p. 59-67

Regards,
N. Ganesan





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From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Jun 10 19:57:25 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 15:57:25 -0400
Subject: Sri Aurobindo
Message-ID: <161227050171.23782.8204236179390750473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Library of Congress has a Centenary edition" published in 1995:

 95-78153: Ghose, Aurobindo, 1872-1950.  Secret of the Veda /
{Centenary
   ed.}.  Twin Lakes, WI : Lotus Light Publications, c1995.  581, {1}
p. ;
   22 cm.

   LC CALL NUMBER: BL1112.26 .G46 1995


So presumably it was first published in 1895.  According to the
catalog record Secret of the Veda is is a revised ed. of On the Veda,
for which I cannot find an earlier date in our catalog or the gigantic
online union catalog OCLC earlier than 1956.  I have paged the various
versions to see if any has an introduction that gives more
information.

Allen Thrasher
































>>> Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> 06/10 3:03 PM >>>
Dear members of the net,

do any of you happen to know when Shri Aurobindo first published his
"The Secret of the Veda". This book has been published by Sri
Aurobindo
Ashram, Pondicherry, in 1971, but since Aurobindo died in 1950, I
assume
that the Secret of the Veda was first published before that.

Thanks in advance!

Lars Martin Fosse




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 10 23:00:06 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 16:00:06 -0700
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
Message-ID: <161227050216.23782.5509124969678013205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Even before Sri Aurbindo, Swami Dayanda (1824-1883)  rejected the AIT.
Reference his writings. Early Arya Samaj authors follow the Svami's lead and
the trend continues to this day.

Regards,

Vishal
----Original Message Follows----
From: Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO>
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 23:30:16 +0200

 > The Library of Congress has a Centenary edition" published in 1995:
 >
 >  95-78153: Ghose, Aurobindo, 1872-1950.  Secret of the Veda /
 > {Centenary
 >    ed.}.  Twin Lakes, WI : Lotus Light Publications, c1995.  581, {1}
 > p. ;
 >    22 cm.
 >
 >    LC CALL NUMBER: BL1112.26 .G46 1995
 >
 > So presumably it was first published in 1895.  According to the
 > catalog record Secret of the Veda is is a revised ed. of On the Veda,
 > for which I cannot find an earlier date in our catalog or the gigantic
 > online union catalog OCLC earlier than 1956.  I have paged the various
 > versions to see if any has an introduction that gives more
 > information.
 >

Thank you Allen! This was very useful. Aurobindo is apparently one of the
first to reject the Aryan Invasion Theory, so this goes into my paper!

Lars Martin


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From thompson at JLC.NET  Thu Jun 10 20:01:07 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 16:01:07 -0400
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
In-Reply-To: <v04011703b385a27d8120@[128.174.52.170]>
Message-ID: <161227050174.23782.8480584245586588270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Since Hans Henrich Hock has taken the leap, perhaps it will useful to
belabor a few more points as well. They will be obvious to many.

In order to respond adequately to Samar Abbas's assertion that '30-50 % of
the words of Sanskrit are of Dravidian etymology anyway', we would have to
ask ourselves exactly what stage of the language is meant. Insofar as
Sanskrit was/is a living language, it was/is a changing language, of course.

The percentage of non-IA words in Sanskrit at 1000 BCE will be different
from that at 1 BCE or at 1000 CE. Or for that matter at 1999 CE. It is also
reasonable to suppose that there will be not only temporal variation but
also geographic variation. So we need to ask whether there is a greater
amount of non-IA words in the North or the South, or in the East or West,
etc. This is not a new idea.

I think that we can come up with meaningful figures only by setting limits
like this, and restricting our assertions within such limits.

For the RV, we can be fairly specific, thanks to the work done by previous
scholars. Kuiper has listed 383 non-IA words -- that is, borrowed words --
in that text. Kuiper's list is explicitly provisional, and by no means is
it overly restrictive. For example, the three terms cited in my previous post:

1. bRba'duktha = hapax at RV 8.32.10, epithet of Indra.

2. bRbu'H = name of a Vedic patron [cf. his dAnastuti at RV 6.45.31-33].

3. bR'bUkam = another hapax, at RV 10.27.23; meaning unclear, possibly of
Munda origin [thus Kuiper].

are cited by Kuiper as three separate entries on his list [nos. 280-282],
in spite of the fact that there is a very good chance that two or all of
these might be related.

Now Kuiper carefully demonstrates how he comes up with a percentage for
non-IA words in the RV. I won''t go into it. But, very conservatively, he
estimates that this percentage might be well above 5 %. But this figure
includes not only possible Dravidian borrowings, but also possible Munda
ones. And clearly, my examples above show that he has included some that
may be good old Indo-Iranian words. These may have been borrowed from some
unknown language at a pre-Vedic Indo-Iranian period. Or possibly, as I am
willing to speculate, they may be borrowings into Vedic from Iranian.

Finally, this figure of 5 % includes borrowings from one or more other
languages that are otherwise unknown to us [see the 'language x'' posited
by Masica, accd to whom possibly one third of the Hindi lexicon may be
borrowed from this unknown source]. So it is fair to state that, even if we
do not go into great detail examining individual etymologies, the
percentage of specifically Dravidian borrowings in the RV is going to be
quite a bit less than 5 %. Maybe 2. Hindi, however, stands at the other end
of the spectrum, much closer to the figure cited by Mr. Abbas. What does
this fact suggest?

Will such figures apply to epic Sanskrit? No. Nor to later classical Skt,
nor to Middle IA, etc. It would be useful to get precise figures from as
many different sources as possible [i.e., different times and places].
Maybe we could identify trends or patterns.

In any case, then our statements would be meaningful and verifiable. Or not.

Hoping that I haven't wasted anyone's time.

George Thompson




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 10 23:21:13 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 16:21:13 -0700
Subject: Bhavisya Purana
Message-ID: <161227050222.23782.14935107213609355612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: Paolo Magnone <p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT>
Subject: The "PurANa of the Future",              Noah and Queen Victoria
(was: Historicity of the Flood)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:51:32 +0100

Dr. Magnone wrote:
As for queen Victoria, the passage in question must be BhSP III, 4,
22, 72 ff., which is, however, quite unclear. It is about the monkey-
faced (!) GuruNDas, the progeny of VikaTa (an ape ally of RAma),
come for the purpose of trade, followers of the BauddhamArga and
adherents of the creed of Izaputra (i. e. Jesus). Entrusted by Hari
with the charge of the people, they settled in KalikAtA.VikaTAvatI,
the queen (tatpanI = tat-patnI ?) of the western island of VikaTa,
set up a royal counsel by way of the 8 Kauzala, and its king
(tatpati) PulomArci went to KalikAtA...
Any historians on the list who can offer a detailed explanation of
the references?

VA responds: The passage is clear. VikaTa is a corruption of Britain and
Vikatavati/.Vikatapatni is a corruption of Victoria. This is clear from the
context where 'Hulbert' (=Albert) is said to ber her spouse, which is
historically correct. Such delibrate corruptions are common in the Purana.
Other examples (all quotations are from memory)
1. Eve = Havyavati (from Persian Havva)
2. Aurangzeb = Naurangeb
3. Muhammad = MahAmad
and so on.

KaliKata is of course the name of the village/locality around which the city
Calcutta evolved.

Gurunda means 'white bodied' and I have encountered the word used in this
sense even in 18-19th Cent. Marathi and Hindi literature. Cannot recall
references off-hand.

'Monkey faced' was a popular description of Europeans till a few decades
back. For instance, reference the following lines from Satyartha Prakasa
Chap XI of Dayanand Sarasvati (paraphrase)
"In ancient times, Europe was called 'Harivarsha. This is because the
Europeans have white faces, red lips and brown hair like moneys." (One of
the meanings of 'Hari' is monkey).

Of course, the Purana also records a visit of North West India by Jesus
where Emperor Salivahana is said to have honored him. As per the Indian
Tradition, Salivahana was a junior contemproary of Emperor Vikramaditya (who
is placed by popular Indian tradition in the 1st Cent. B.C.E.). You would be
familiar with the context I am referring to, therefore I am not enclosing a
summary here.

A more detailed consideration of the passages would require direct
consultation of the Purana (which I have not seen in 10 years now)  by me.

To my knowledge, no critical edition of the Purana has been published by the
All India Kashiraj Trust or by anyone else. If any manuscript, say older
than 1830 C.E. excludes the passages on Victoria, then we can say that the
printed versions are quite inflated with interpolations. The original
Bhavisya Purana, however, was quite ancient. It is counted as an
authoritative Purana by Al-Beruni and a verse from the 'Bhavasiya Purana' is
cited even in the Apastamba Dharma Sutra. (Although I could not locate this
verse in the printed editions of the Purana).

Best regards

Vishal



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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 10 23:28:33 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 16:28:33 -0700
Subject: Shells in Ayurveda, addendum re crabs
Message-ID: <161227050224.23782.5442193647987625799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Allen Thrasher wrote:
I will be looking at Watt's old publications on
economic products of India and books on Aryurvedic materia medica.

VA writes: An old Ayurvedic Materia Medica is the 'Nighantu' of Dhanvantari
(not to be confused with the Vedic Thesaurus). Refere also relevant sections
of Varahamihira's Brhatsamhita, Arhtasastra etc. For a modern publication,
following is the reference (I think it is a pertty good reference):

Thanks,  VA
_______

Author:         Nadkarni, Krishnarao Mangeshrao, 1864-

Title:          Indian materia medica. With Ayurvedic, Unani-tibbi, Siddha,
                   allopathic, homeopathic, naturopathic & home remedies.

Edition:        3d ed. rev. & enl. by A. K. Nadkarni. Foreword by Sir R. N.
                   Chopra.

Published:      Bombay, Popular Book Depot <1955?>

Description:    2 v. 22 cm.

Subjects, Library of Congress :
                 Materia medica, Vegetable.
                 Botany, Medical.
                 y of Congress :
                 Botany--India.

Contributors:   Nadkarni, A. K.

Notes:          First published, 1908, under title: Indian plants and drugs.


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From thompson at JLC.NET  Thu Jun 10 21:16:41 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 17:16:41 -0400
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
In-Reply-To: <19990610204804.24295.rocketmail@web307.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050188.23782.3054249070199311005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It is good that you pointed this out. What I said here is wrong. I meant
that one third *of foreign words* in Hindi cannot be attributed to
Dravidian or Munda, but rather to this language x. I did not mean one third
of all Hindi words.

These borrowed terms tend to be agricultural terms, by the way.

Sorry for the slip.

GT


At 01:48 PM 6/10/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>--- George Thompson <thompson at JLC.NET> wrote:
>
>> Finally, this figure of 5 % includes borrowings from one or more other
>> languages that are otherwise unknown to us [see the 'language x'' posited
>> by Masica, accd to whom possibly one third of the Hindi lexicon may be
>> borrowed from this unknown source].
>
>If Dravidian linguists take a look at those words, they may well turn out to
>be from their specialty. Sure, the 33% words from 'language x' (unknown)
>will come down substantially.
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>




From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Fri Jun 11 00:24:41 1999
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 17:24:41 -0700
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
In-Reply-To: <19990610230007.91397.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050237.23782.11008644063669731125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin,

In this respect,  Dayananda states in his "Summary of my beliefs" (at No. 30)
that:

"This country is called Aryavarta because it has been the abode of the Aryas
from the very dawn of Creation. It is bounded on the north by the
Himalayas, on
the south by the Vindhyachala mountains, on the west by the Attok (Indus), and
on the east by the Brahmaputra. The land included within these limits is
Aryavarta and those that have been living in it from times immemorial are also
called Aryas."

(Light on Truth: or An English Translation of the Satyarth Prakash.  Trans.
Chiranjiva Bharadwaja.  Delhi: Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, 1975,
p.729.)


And Yadav, in his introduction to Dayananda's autobiography, writes:

"Dayanand's next concern was to arouse national consciousness among his
people.
To begin with, he examined the plans of his predecessors and concluded that
these men, though well-intentioned, had borrowed too heavily from the West. He
believed that no nation could build its edifice on a foreign foundation. He,
therefore, gave a clarion call to his countrymen to go back to the Vedas,
and to
lay their foundations on them.
This was, as rightly put by Aurobindo Ghosh, surely a master glance of
practical intution on Dayanand's part, for, in a real sense, the Vedas were
the
original source of religion, culture and civilization of India; they were the
foundations of Indian thought, philosophy and knowledge; and they
'concealed in
themselves the  seed for a radical new birth of the Indian nation.' "

(K.C. Yaday, ed.  Autobiography of Dayanand Saraswati, 2d ed..  Delhi:
Manohar,
1978, pp. 13-14).  This book also includes the numbered list of his beliefs.

I would also recommend:

J.T.F. Jordens. Dayananda Sarasvati: His Life and Ideas.  Delhi: OUP, 1978.

Regards,

Luis



At 04:00 PM 6/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Even before Sri Aurbindo, Swami Dayanda (1824-1883)  rejected the AIT.
>Reference his writings. Early Arya Samaj authors follow the Svami's lead and
>the trend continues to this day.
>
>Regards,
>
>Vishal



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From deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG  Thu Jun 10 21:57:20 1999
From: deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG (Tein Network)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 17:57:20 -0400
Subject: Buddhism's Links to Early Christianity !
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.990529031647.6139A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
Message-ID: <161227050195.23782.12415900146454266972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

June 10, 1999

RE: In Search of Contact Point for
    Authors: Elmar R.Gruber &
    Holger Kersten in Germany (?)
    "The Original Jesus:The Buddhist Sources Of Christianity"

Hi Everyone,

Can anyone please give me an email address or a contact address
for the authors of the book "The Original Jesus: The Buddhist
Sources of Christianity" by Elmar R. Gruber & Holger Kersten,
Element Books, 1995 ?

This is a rather interesting book with plausible hypothesis
about the link between early Christianity and Buddhism particularly
in the Greek dominated world of 300 BC to 100 AD.

Anyone who has read this book carefully and can send me any discussions,
comments, or scholarly critiques would be highly appreciated.

Thank you.


Avi Dey,
nsw3
Vienna, VA, USA




From thompson at JLC.NET  Thu Jun 10 21:58:37 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 17:58:37 -0400
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
In-Reply-To: <37602E67.A8942A16@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050199.23782.6951388505839243234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Lars Martin,

I'm no Aurobindo expert, but I think that the centenary edition that Allen
refers to is a *birth* centenary, reprinted in 1995.

1895 in any case seems rather early to me.

George

At 11:30 PM 6/10/1999 +0200, you wrote:
>> The Library of Congress has a Centenary edition" published in 1995:
>>
>>  95-78153: Ghose, Aurobindo, 1872-1950.  Secret of the Veda /
>> {Centenary
>>    ed.}.  Twin Lakes, WI : Lotus Light Publications, c1995.  581, {1}
>> p. ;
>>    22 cm.
>>
>>    LC CALL NUMBER: BL1112.26 .G46 1995
>>
>> So presumably it was first published in 1895.  According to the
>> catalog record Secret of the Veda is is a revised ed. of On the Veda,
>> for which I cannot find an earlier date in our catalog or the gigantic
>> online union catalog OCLC earlier than 1956.  I have paged the various
>> versions to see if any has an introduction that gives more
>> information.
>>
>
>Thank you Allen! This was very useful. Aurobindo is apparently one of the
>first to reject the Aryan Invasion Theory, so this goes into my paper!
>
>Lars Martin
>
>




From cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU  Thu Jun 10 22:21:27 1999
From: cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (george cardona)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 18:21:27 -0400
Subject: looking for article
In-Reply-To: <375FAF1D.8D27CF95@univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <161227050204.23782.4575496176918390640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'Praamaa.nya in the philosophy of the grammarians', Studies in Indology:
Professor Rasik Vihari Joshi Felicitation Volume ..., Delhi: Shree
Publishing House, 1988-1989, pp. 15-28.
>I am looking for the following article:
>
>Ashok Aklujkar: "Praamaan.ya in the philosophy of the Grammarians".
>
>This article is referred to in Aklujkar's "The number of pramaan.as
>according to Bhartr.hari" (WZKS 33/1989), where it is mentioned as
>scheduled to appear in a felicitation volume in New Delhi, 1988. I would
>like to know whether it was ever published, and if so, where/when ...
>
>Any information will be greatly appreciated,
>
>--
>Birgit Kellner
>Institut f. Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Institute for Tibetan and
>Buddhist Studies
>Universitaet Wien / Vienna University




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jun 10 16:29:35 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 18:29:35 +0200
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050142.23782.7443783898749651553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> >
> > Samar, why don't you get yourself Colson's Teach Yourself Sanskrit? Then you
> > would immediately know that "Sanskrtam" has nothing to do with Dravidian, and
> > that the ending -am is a very common ending for skt. nouns.
> >
>
> Yes, but Sanskrit is an Indian language.  Maybe it would be more
> relevant if -am was a common ending for IE nouns.

That, Paul, is precisely the point: -am is the Sanskrit equivalent of Latin -um and
Greek -on. The I.E. ending *-om becomes -am in Sanskrit.

>
>
> And many other words are of Austric or other etymology making
> up the vast majority of Sanskrit words.

Oh dear.

Lars Martin




From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU  Thu Jun 10 23:31:04 1999
From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 18:31:04 -0500
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
In-Reply-To: <3760F443.A6DAC0CF@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227050227.23782.7937431792483438546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yes, the morphemes in these endings and the morphology that combines the
morphemes in all three languages are inherited from Proto-Indo-European.
The phonetic differences result from regular sound changes applicable in
these phonological contexts.  For a complete cognate word set with these
endings see Skt. yug-a-m : Gk. zug-o-n : Lat. iug-u-m 'yoke'.

For details on these correspondences and the sound changes involved I would
suggest you consult a comparative Indo-European grammar.

abhivaadaye,

Hans Henrich Hock


>Hans Henrich Hock wrote:
>>
>> As they say in the vernacular, "facts is facts".
>>
>
>But as much as the AI theorists might hate to admit it, we are dealing
>with theory here.
>
>Are you really saying that Latin -um, Greek -on and Sanskrit -am are
>related?
>
>I would think better of someone with your credentials (but can excuse
>Lars).
>
>Regards,
>Paul Kekai Manansala




From kekai at JPS.NET  Fri Jun 11 02:31:54 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 19:31:54 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050122.23782.4684344737134643920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>
> >
>
> Samar Abbas wrote:
>
> > Is the word "Sanskrit" itself of Dravidian etymology ?
> >
> > The word "samskrutam" has the suffix -am, indicating a Dravidian origin of
> > the word. Is it possible to trace a Dravidian origin for the prefix
> > samskr- ? Perhaps, Shimoga (Kann. place), Shanmugam (Tam. name), Shan
> > (Burmic) are the sources.
> >
>
> Samar, why don't you get yourself Colson's Teach Yourself Sanskrit? Then you
> would immediately know that "Sanskrtam" has nothing to do with Dravidian, and
> that the ending -am is a very common ending for skt. nouns.
>

Yes, but Sanskrit is an Indian language.  Maybe it would be more
relevant if -am was a common ending for IE nouns.

> >
> > Since 30-50 % of the words of Sanskrit are of Dravidian etymology >anyway,

And many other words are of Austric or other etymology making
up the vast majority of Sanskrit words.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jun 10 18:49:43 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 20:49:43 +0200
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050163.23782.2240449129645249928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> > Claiming that Sanskrit is of Dravidian origin undoubtedly creates happiness in
> > the South.
>
> Wonder whereever you got this idea...  makes no sense whatsoever,  more so since
> you seem to be generalizing way out of line here.

I may have been out of line. However, I have seen attempts on the Internet to prove
that Indo-European languages descend from Tamil, which of course also means that
Sanskrit must descend from Tamil, and ideas about Tamil as a kind adi-language have
been launched in the context of the Dravidian movement. But you are right, I should
not generalize, since evidently not everyone in the South shares these ideas. My
apologies.

Lars Martin Fosse




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jun 10 19:03:21 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 21:03:21 +0200
Subject: Sri Aurobindo
Message-ID: <161227050165.23782.5681766925841115516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the net,

do any of you happen to know when Shri Aurobindo first published his
"The Secret of the Veda". This book has been published by Sri Aurobindo
Ashram, Pondicherry, in 1971, but since Aurobindo died in 1950, I assume
that the Secret of the Veda was first published before that.

Thanks in advance!

Lars Martin Fosse




From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU  Thu Jun 10 19:34:36 1999
From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 21:34:36 +0200
Subject: CSX+ fonts & cross-platform email exchange
Message-ID: <161227050274.23782.3637427313286943800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Also, Windows98 with Word really does not like some of the encodings (with
ASCII codes directly above 128); the printer often goes mad from them
(irregular spacing etc.).
Of course no sane person would use Windows - if he has the choice. It seems
many of us do not have.
Any solution?

Ferenc

Jaap Pranger wrote:

>Windows and Mac versions of the CSX+ fonts seem to have
>identical encodings, in contrast to what is usual.
>
>Data based on CSX+ fonts, when exchanged across platforms
>through email, gets scrambled due to the usual automagical
>MIME re-encoding.




From swantham at TECHPARK.NET  Thu Jun 10 17:30:07 1999
From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 23:00:07 +0530
Subject: Hindi & Sanskrit personal names
Message-ID: <161227050146.23782.11090501289158308033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friend,
As regards Sanskrit names what exactly is your target? Do you want to
subject legendary names too to your study? In that case make use of the
name indices of Ramayana,Mahabharata,Puranas etc.Here in Kerala most of the
Hindu personal names are Sanskrit names, for example mine-Maheswaran.
Usually the caste name is also added.But this tendency is fast
diminishing.In Malayalam language there is a book containing  one thousand
names most of which are Sanskrit.
By the way, do you know the E-mail address of Prof.Birsky? If so please let
me know.
Thank you
Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair
Professor
Department of Sanskrit
University of Kerala
Trivandrum

----------
> From: Barbara Satola <bsatola at VELA.FILG.UJ.EDU.PL>
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> Subject: Hindi & Sanskrit personal names
> Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 4:47 PM
>
> Dear Members of Indology List,
> I am looking for information on Hindi as well as Sanskrit personal
> names. I am very interested in morphological, semantical and
> etymological analysis of such names. I would be very grateful for any
> suggestions.
> Yours sincerely,
> Barbara Satola-Sliwa
>
> My e-mail address:
> bsatola at vela.filg.uj.edu.pl
>
> My post address is:
> Jagiellonian University
> Institute of Oriental Philology
> al. Mickiewicza 9/11
> Krakow
> Poland




From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT  Thu Jun 10 22:26:34 1999
From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 23:26:34 +0100
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
In-Reply-To: <ABW3uNtKF6@YV1041.spb.edu>
Message-ID: <161227050207.23782.14081062110165957891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In reply to Yaroslav V. Vassilkov's message of 10 Jun 99, 13:09:

> I would rather support Michael Rabe's position, stressing

> >> striking similarities that ... exist between the Matsya-avatar stories
> >> and the Middle Eastern references to an ark

> and object to Paolo Magnone's view,
> acc. to which

> > different flood traditions may have independently developed the
> > idea of an "ark"; and ... the similarities do not go much
> >beyond that.

> Here are some other similiarities between Ancient Indian and
> Mesopotamian myths:

> 1. Both INDIA and MESOPOTAMIA: a pious man is warned about the flood. A
> god/fish gives him advice to build an ark/ship. The difference between two
> forms of a benefactor is diminished by the fact that Sumerian/Mesopotamian
> god Ea/Enki sometimes appears in the form of a fish.

You overlook the paramount difference here: in Mesopotamian
myths, the pious man is, above all, an innocent man. Gods hate
humanity on account of some transgression and decide to
annichilate it. Indeed, one of the most prominent features in the
Mesopotamian myth is the ethical context and the structure: crime
- punishment - reconciliation, which is conspicuous for its absence
in all Indian versions which I know about (except for a faint shade in
a couple of quite late developments).

> 2. MESOPOTAMIA: the
> pious man takes on board "the seed of souls of every kind"; INDIA: Manu
> takes on board "seeds of all kinds" (Mbh).

What version are you referring to? As far as I know, near-eastern
versions do not typically mention "seeds", but couples, or in any
case "complete" beings. In Uta-napiStim's account, seeds are
mentioned together with gold, silver, kinsmen, servants, craftsmen,
beasts and cattle. On the other hand, there are no seeds nor any
survivors apart from Manu in the most ancient Indian version, that of
ZBr, which should accordingly be closer to the near-eastern
prototype. The reason is plain to see: Manu has got to procreate all
alone, by dint of zrama and sacrifice according to the usual
brahmanical pattern. Likewise, when seeds do appear, in later
versions, there is no need to conjure up far-reaching connections
with Sumer-Akkad: they can be much better explained with the
Indian notion of zeSa which plays an all-important role in pratisarga
myths (under which heading the deluge myth belongs).

> 3. Number "7" plays some role
> in both myths, MIDDLE EAST: 7 months of the flood (Bible), 7 nights of the
> flood, 7+7 incence-burners used in the final sacrifice (Sumer); INDIA: 7
> sages aboard the ship; 7 clouds of Doomsday flood the earth.

Number 7 is usually deemed to be of near-eastern origin; however,
in India it becomes more and more prominent as time progresses.
It is particularly at home in puranic cosmography (7 dvIpas, 7
lokas, 7 pAtAlas, 7 suns + 7 clouds at doomsday), whereas, if I
am not mistaken, it is comparatively rare in vedic literature (e. g.,
tripartite cosmography). There is no 7 in the most ancient Indian
account of the flood, that of ZBr.

> 4. Both INDIA
> and MESOPOTAMIA: landing at the top of a mountain.

What else is left, when the low lands are flooded?

> 5. Both: the final
> sacrifice. MIDDLE EAST: the God "sensed the smell of Noah's sacrifice"
> (Bible), gods like flies sense the smell and come together to Utnapishti's
> sacrifice; INDIA: Manu poured into the water clarified butter, milk etc.:
> out of it arose IDA (ILA), soon after that "Mitra and VaruNa met her",
> i.e. the sacrificial offering (as in Mesopotamian accounts too) reached
> the gods.

This is an example in point, showing to what extent "material"
similarities can be misleading. The import of near-eastern sacrifice
fluctuates between thanksgiving and propitiation. In the Uta-
napiStim account it brings out the dependence of the gods on
human sacrifice and thus effectively seals the reconciliation
between gods and men. The sacrifice plays no part in the
propagation of creatures: obviously, the surviving couples will take
care of it in the usual way.
On the other hand, in the ZBr version it is Manu's procreative
concern that prompts the sacrifice. When the flood is over, there is
no need to appease the gods, because there was no fault to
expiate, and the flood itself was no vengeance, but a due event in
the course of things (although in the ZBr an explicit cyclic context
is still missing). The outcome of the sacrifice, i. e. IDA, the
quintessence of sacrifice, is not "offered" to the gods. Mitra-VaruNa
do not even know who she is, and hearing the she is Manu's
daughter, try to appropriate her: "say you are ours!" but she
refuses, and goes to Manu. Here it is the self-sufficient power of
sacrifice as man's inalienable property that is extolled, pursuant to
the brahmanical ideology of the preeminence of sacrifice. In
subsequent versions, the sacrifice no longer fulfilled any essential
task in the matsyAvatAra myth, and was accordingly dropped.

> There is one significant difference: Sanskrit versions contain no mention
> of any bird sent to look for a dry land. However birds appear in some
> tribal Indian flood myths: e.g., God sends two birds to see are there any
> survivors after the flood, the birds perch on the "ark" (hollow log) and
> hear the voices of children (survivors) inside (Kamars).

I would like to have references on this.

> It is tempting to
> view in this light the well-known IVC representation of a ship with two
> birds on it.

> Even without the "bird" motif, there are too many similiarities between
> Indian and Mesopotamian flood myths and this points to some kind of
> genetic connection.
>
>          Indian myth has no Indo-European parallels. It was most probably
> borrowed from a non-Aryan source (IVC heritage?). It is worth notice that
> in its earliest form (Zatapatha BrAhmaNa) the fish appears without any
> name, is not identified with anyone of Vedic gods, and this means probably
> that the ZatBr story is a first stage in the process of assimilation of a
> foreign (substratum?) myth. The similiarity between the hypothetical IVC
> flood myth and the Mesopotamian one would not be a surprise for us (some
> mythological motifs common for IVC and ancient Middle Eastern art have
> been discovered and studied already by Parpola, During-Caspers and other
> scholars).

Of course, I do not mean to deny that some theme borrowing
could, and therefore might, have occurred. My contention is only,
that the extant Indian accounts appear right at the outset so
thoroughly indianized, i. e. an integral part of contemporary Indian
culture, that they do not warrant hypotheses of borrowing.
Similarity of *alien* structural elements -- such as the motif of the
jealous god -- or contrariwise of *casual* non-structural elements --
such as the motif of the birds (whether they be two or more) --
would provide a clue towards borrowing: but, as I have tried to
show, I do no think that such similarities really obtain.




----------------------------
Paolo Magnone
Catholic University of Milan
pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it
Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies
http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jun 10 21:30:16 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 23:30:16 +0200
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
Message-ID: <161227050192.23782.3955110157239035034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> The Library of Congress has a Centenary edition" published in 1995:
>
>  95-78153: Ghose, Aurobindo, 1872-1950.  Secret of the Veda /
> {Centenary
>    ed.}.  Twin Lakes, WI : Lotus Light Publications, c1995.  581, {1}
> p. ;
>    22 cm.
>
>    LC CALL NUMBER: BL1112.26 .G46 1995
>
> So presumably it was first published in 1895.  According to the
> catalog record Secret of the Veda is is a revised ed. of On the Veda,
> for which I cannot find an earlier date in our catalog or the gigantic
> online union catalog OCLC earlier than 1956.  I have paged the various
> versions to see if any has an introduction that gives more
> information.
>

Thank you Allen! This was very useful. Aurobindo is apparently one of the
first to reject the Aryan Invasion Theory, so this goes into my paper!

Lars Martin




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Thu Jun 10 19:34:59 1999
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 23:34:59 +0400
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227050179.23782.4354568462934895185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ya.Vassilkov:
>>some mythological motifs common for IVC and ancient Middle Eastern
>>art have been discovered and studied already by Parpola,
>>During-Caspers and other scholars).

N.GANESAN:
>Some references, please.

E.C.L. During Caspers. Some motifs as evidence for maritime contact
between Sumer and the Indus Valley. - "Persica", vol. 5, 1971, pp. 107-118,
pl. VIII-XI; A.Parpola. New correspondences between Harappan and Near Eastern
gliptic art. - South Asian Archaeology 1981. Ed. by B.Allchin. Cambridge
Univ. Press, Cambridge, 1984, pp. 176-195; A.Parpola. A Sumerian Motif in Late
Indus Seals? - The Indian Ocean in Antiquity. Ed. by J.Reade. London, 1997,
pp. 227-232.

        I hope that other list-members will be able to add something to this
list.

        All the best,
                                        Yaroslav Vassilkov




From sogbs at CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU  Thu Jun 10 22:40:09 1999
From: sogbs at CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU (Geoffrey Samuel)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 23:40:09 +0100
Subject: Bengali Buddhists
Message-ID: <161227050210.23782.7465989522258225628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Paola Tinti completed a D.Phil. on the contemporary Buddhist population in
Bangladesh last year at the Oriental Institute, Oxford. The title is
"Between Two Civilizations: History and Self-Representation of Bangladeshi
Buddhists", 1998. Paola argues that the community is now and has for many
years back been essentially a northwards extension of the Theravada
Buddhism of Southeast Asia (particularly Arakan, which played a major role
in the revival of Bengali Buddhism in the C19).

There is also a book in Swedish by E. Rosen-Hockersmith, Buddhismen i
Bangladesh. En studie av en minoritetsreligion. Religionshistorika
institutionen vid Uppsala universitet, Uppsala 1985.

Geoffrey Samuel

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
This e-mail address is being used by Geoffrey Samuel and Santi Rozario

Oxford telephone number (01865) 744169  (until August 1999)

Permanent address:
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
University of Newcastle, NSW 2308, Australia

Our permanent e-mail addresses are

Geoffrey: sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au
Santi: sostr at cc.newcastle.edu.au

If you are sending us e-mail after June 23 (Santi) or July 31 (Geoffrey)
please make sure that you use these addresses

Web pages: http://www.newcastle.edu.au/department/so/samuel.htm
and        http://www.newcastle.edu.au/department/so/rozario.htm
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 11 04:22:03 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 00:22:03 -0400
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (1)
Message-ID: <161227050243.23782.2285947101071913824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In earlier discussions, Lakshmi Srinivas related the terms vaTakalai and 
ten2kalai to the geographical distribution of the two zrI vaiSNavite sects. 
My research shows that any correlation of the terms with the geographic 
distribution of these sects within South India is purely coincidental.  The 
original meanings of vaTakalai and ten2kalai are very clear from their 
long-established usage which can be continually traced from AzvAr's times to 
16th century AD.

"kalai" has several meanings in Tamil. But "type" or "category" is not one of 
them according to the Tamil Lexicon. The relevant meaning of kalai in 
vaTakalai/ten2kalai is that of an utterance (by the tongue) as can be seen in 
the following usage by different AzvArs given below.

nalagkaLAya naRkalaikaL
nAvilum navin2RilEn2...                            (tiruccantaviruttam 90)

nA iyal kalaikaL enkO                               (tiruvAymozi 3.4.2)

I had said earlier, the usage can refer to the languages,  Sanskrit and 
Tamil, or the texts in those languages. Although the texts and the languages 
in which they are created are different entities, in terms of historical 
usage, one can find some instances where they are differentiated and other 
instances where they are not. The following line means "those whose 
language/utterance shines with kalai". 

kalai ilagku moziyALar ......   (periya tirumozi 8.1.1). 

If one wants to know what type of texts could be indicated by "kalai", 
consider the following line

irukku ilagku tirumozi vAy eN tOL IcaRku  ... (periya tirumozi 6.6. 8)

Thus texts like rigvedic mantras can be referred to by "kalai". 

However, either of 'language' or  'text' can be taken as a metonymical 
reference to the other. Consider the following lines of kulacEkara AzvAr.

.............AyarERRai
amararkaLtam talaivan2ai am tamiz in2pap 
pAvin2ai a vaTamoziyai................                   (perumAL tirumozi 4)

Here kRSNa is praised as "blissful verses in Tamil" and "northern language 
(Sanskrit)". Obviously vaTamozi, literally meaning "northern language", 
refers to "verses in the northern language (Sanskrit)".

By such a metonymical usage, we also find vaTacol (northern word or language, 
Sanskrit) and tamizOcai (Tamil sound) being considered equivalent in the 
following verse.


 tamizOcai vaTacol Akit
ticai nAn2kum Ayt tigkaL JAyiRu Aki... (tiruneTuntANTakam 4)

Thus mozi, col, and kalai are all used synonymously in combination with vaTa 
or ten2.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 11 04:22:04 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 00:22:04 -0400
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (2)
Message-ID: <161227050245.23782.5342112333498390615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

We can even go outside the usage by AzvArs to see this. Kampan (9th -12th
century AD) treats ten2col and vaTacoL kalai as equivalent as given below.

ten2 col kaTantAn2 vaTacol kalaikku ellai tErntAn2              (kam.
2.4.137.4)

cEkkizAr (12th century) clearly refers to Sanskrit by the term vaTakalai in
the following line.

ten2 tamizum vaTa kalaiyum tEcikamum pEcuvan2a               (peri. 4156.1)

kacciyappar  (14th century AD?) refers to Tamil as ten2kalai in the following
verse.

veLLai Ati viyan2 kavi yAvaiyum
teLLitin2 mozi ten2 kalaiyE mutal
uLLa palkalai otu kin2RArkaLum
vaLLiyOr kaLum man2Ru toRum INTuvAr
(kantapurANam 195.1-4)

In the following verse paraJcOti (16th century AD?) equates the use of "col"
and "kalai".

aRamakaL Akkamum malarin2 mEya cem
niRamakaL Akkamum nIti cAn2Ra pOr
maRa makaL Akkamum vaTacol ten2 kalait
tiRamakaL Akkamum ciRantatu annakar
(tiruviLai. 42.14)


In the following verse, the use of col, kalai, Ariyam, and ten2kalai make the
semantics clear.

akkaram nARpattu eTTum avvazi vERu vERu
makkaLAyp piRantu pal mAN kalaikaLin2 vakaimai tErntu
tokka Ariyamum En2ai col patin2eTTum Ayntu
takka ten2 kalai nuN tErccip pulamaiyil talaimai cArntAr
(tiruviLai.51.11)

This usage is found not only in literary texts but also in inscriptions.

In SII vol. 7, no. 129, of 12th century AD at tirukkOyilUr, we find the
members of an agricultural board are described as

"centamiz vaTakalai terintuNarntu nIti kETTu nipuNarAki"

In an inscription of cuntarapANTiyan2 (1285-1300AD), we find the members of a
guild being described as

"ten2tamiz vaTakalai terintuNarntu nIti cAttira nipuNarA"

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 11 04:22:05 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 00:22:05 -0400
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
Message-ID: <161227050240.23782.1088580416887159047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In light of the discussion so far, let us look at the verse cited by Lakshmi
Srinivas.

On Mon, 10 May 1999 Lakshmi Srinivas <lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM> wrote

<<It is not very clear if the word  "kalai" means
language even if the context quoted by Dr Palaniappan
may seem to suggest that.

In another work viz., ciriya tirumaDal, in the opening
lines of which the same AzvAr uses the phrase

"cIrAr irukalaiyum eytuvAr"
meaning " (they) will attain both types (of objects)".

The objects here refers to the puruShArtha's already
mentioned by the poet a few lines before. The word
"both" refers to aRam (dharma) and poruL (artha), so
kalai seems to mean here "types" or "categories".>>

The relevant lines are:

pArOr colappaTTa mUn2Ran2RE - ammUn2Rum
ArAyil tAn2E aRam poruL in2pam enRu
ArAr ivaRRin2 iTaiyatan2ai eytuvAr
cIrAr irukalaiyum eytuvar cikken2amaRRu

The usage "iru kalai" or two kalais in this verse seem to refer to knowledge
contained in Tamil and Sanskrit texts. Those who gain such knowledge will
attain the three goals. Alternately, one can take iru kalai as referring to
texts on dharma and artha with "kalai" meaning texts.

The conclusion is that the name of the sects, vaTakalai and ten2kalai, should
be based on the relative emphasis placed on Sanskrit and Tamil texts
respectively by these sects.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 11 07:33:35 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 00:33:35 -0700
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227050252.23782.7889468395964723567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>What is your definition of Ancient India?
>How many years is ancient?

May I suggest a quantitative measure? Taking the latest, latest possible
date for Rgveda as say 1000 BCE, let's say that the time scale we are
interested spans 3000 years. The Khilafat movement dates to 1914, i.e. 85
years. 17:600 is the probability of how much interest there will be on this
list in the Ottoman empire. It gets worse if we look at it logarithmically,
and/or if we weight it for the actual impact of the Khilafat movement in
India and elsewhere (almost zero, except for one high profile court case).

Discussions of the success or otherwise of secularization in south Asia,
whether secularization necessitates westernization (or vice versa), these
would all be highly interesting and perennial topics, but on another forum,
dedicated perhaps to politics and public policy in the subcontinent. Or
maybe on a list dedicated to *intelligent* discussions of British colonial
history.

Vidyasankar


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From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 11 05:10:15 1999
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 01:10:15 -0400
Subject: Sri Aurobindo
Message-ID: <161227050248.23782.10580191064104363978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lar Martin Fosse Asked:

>Dear members of the net,
>
>do any of you happen to know when Shri Aurobindo first published his
>"The Secret of the Veda". This book has been published by Sri Aurobindo
>Ashram, Pondicherry, in 1971, but since Aurobindo died in 1950, I assume
>that the Secret of the Veda was first published before that.
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Lars Martin Fosse

The Seventh Impression 1993 edition Pb. ISBN 81-7058-191-5,
Bd. ISBN 81-7058-192-3 has the following information
printed on the page just before the table of contents. I quote.

"First published in the monthly review Arya between
August 1914 and January 1920."

This edition also contains the chapter  "Interpretation of the Veda"
with the editorial note that this is a letter published in 'The Hindu
(Madras) on August 27, 1914. And a chapter "The Origins of Aryan Speech"
with the editorial note: "A draft of a chapter (the only one written) on
'The Origins of Aryan Speech', found among the MSS. of Sri Aurobindo, has
been appended here."

Yours,

Harry Spier




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From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jun 10 23:34:22 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 01:34:22 +0200
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
Message-ID: <161227050230.23782.11204499897343251447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Even before Sri Aurbindo, Swami Dayanda (1824-1883)  rejected the AIT.
> Reference his writings. Early Arya Samaj authors follow the Svami's lead and
> the trend continues to this day.
>

Dayananda Saraswati was of the opinion that the Aryans came from Tibet. The
point in my particular context is this: Before Golwalkar made this a matter for
faith, so to speak, among Hindu nationalists, there were several other Hindu
nationalists who accepted the idea that the Aryans came from outside South Asia.
Both Tilak and Savarkar did, Tilak thought they came from the Arctic areas. To
keep up suspense, I won't tell you WHY I think that opposition to the Aryan
Invasion Theory became an integrated part of Hindu nationalism, you will have to
read my paper.

(I bet this will send you scuttling to the nearest book shop round Xmas!)

With businesslike regards,

Lars Martin




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Jun 11 00:13:22 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 02:13:22 +0200
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050234.23782.18371462460459277198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:

> Hans Henrich Hock wrote:
> >
> > As they say in the vernacular, "facts is facts".
> >
>
> But as much as the AI theorists might hate to admit it, we are dealing
> with theory here.
>
> Are you really saying that Latin -um, Greek -on and Sanskrit -am are
> related?
>
> I would think better of someone with your credentials (but can excuse
> Lars).
>

Paul, I didn't realize this until now, but you're a HUMORIST!

But you really had me for a while...

Lars Martin




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Fri Jun 11 07:00:54 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 03:00:54 -0400
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227050250.23782.13784695824717410382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mani Varadarajan wrote:
>
> Can we please move this *entire* discussion
> (one which is not within the purview of
> "Ancient India") to private email?

What is your definition of Ancient India?
How many years is ancient?

To many people Khilafat movement and fall of Ottoman empire is part of
ancient India.

Just because you do not like a topic is no reason to prohibit others
from expressing their views.


Have a peaceful and joyous day.

Aditya Mishra
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        Nothing is so simple that it can't get screwed up.




From kekai at JPS.NET  Fri Jun 11 11:34:27 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 04:34:27 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050219.23782.8248261014803985065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hans Henrich Hock wrote:
>
> As they say in the vernacular, "facts is facts".
>

But as much as the AI theorists might hate to admit it, we are dealing
with theory here.

Are you really saying that Latin -um, Greek -on and Sanskrit -am are
related?

I would think better of someone with your credentials (but can excuse
Lars).

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala




From scarbro at CROSSLINK.NET  Fri Jun 11 08:57:47 1999
From: scarbro at CROSSLINK.NET (David Scarbrough)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 04:57:47 -0400
Subject: bRhadAranyaka
Message-ID: <161227050344.23782.15629389573150455364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Has anyone come across the bRhadAranyaka upanishhat in electronic form
for doing a word search?
Thanks in advance.
David.




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 11 12:57:15 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 05:57:15 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050290.23782.17683385413180908249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>  However, if nobody can think of a suitable Dravidian etymology on the
> linss of Prof. Hock's IE derivat'n, then I shall have to retract the idea.

   There is NO derivation of the word, samskrtam from Dravidian.

>  I do not claim that IE or Vedic is derived from Dravidian; I have only
> suggested that the word `Sanskrit' may be.

   Sanskrit ot its name cannot be derived from Tamil.

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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 11 13:37:21 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 06:37:21 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050296.23782.13367176929459863796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>Are you really saying that Latin -um, Greek -on and Sanskrit -am are
>>related?

>
> Okay, so what are your reasons for claiming that they are not related?
>
> Gail Coelho
>

I do not think there are any serious reasons.

Regards,
SM

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From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Jun 11 06:22:55 1999
From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 07:22:55 +0100
Subject: Sri Aurobindo
In-Reply-To: <37600BF8.2787571E@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050271.23782.4399863034619013668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It was published as a series of articles in the Arya between August 1914
and 1920 and were brought together in book form in 1956 under the title, On
The Veda. They were reissued in 1964 under the title Secret of the Veda.
John Grimes

>Dear members of the net,
>
>do any of you happen to know when Shri Aurobindo first published his
>"The Secret of the Veda". This book has been published by Sri Aurobindo
>Ashram, Pondicherry, in 1971, but since Aurobindo died in 1950, I assume
>that the Secret of the Veda was first published before that.
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Lars Martin Fosse




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 11 14:24:42 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 07:24:42 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
Message-ID: <161227050307.23782.651719910963014532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>Austric is too small geographically and historically in India;
>>It never developed a civilization comparable to Dravidian.

Paul Manansala wrote:
>Not really.  It is only the Austric contribution as recognized by
>(most) modern scholars that appears to be small.  The actual fact of
>the matter is that the evidence suggests the contribution in all
>regards is quite great.

Earlier I wrote about the contrasts about Dravidian and Austric
cultures in India. Munda prsence is felt only in the Eastern India.
If Austric contribution is vast, why it was never committed
to writing, and also always with tribals?

Sincerely,
N. Ganesan


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From gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Fri Jun 11 12:25:18 1999
From: gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Gail M. Coelho)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 07:25:18 -0500
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
In-Reply-To: <375FFA1E.900DF3A0@mentorg.com>
Message-ID: <161227050282.23782.16791342421965883387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think the motivation is more that some Indians hate the idea that
Sanskrit did not originate in India! And their reasons are of course
emotional ones, rather than anything based on good scholarly methodology.
We're getting into the Book of Genesis vs. Theory of Evolution debate here!

Gail Coelho

At 10:47 AM 6/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>
>> Claiming that Sanskrit is of Dravidian origin undoubtedly creates
happiness in
>> the South.
>
>Wonder whereever you got this idea...  makes no sense whatsoever,  more so
since
>you seem to be generalizing way out of line here.
>
>-Srini.
>




From gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Fri Jun 11 12:44:44 1999
From: gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Gail M. Coelho)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 07:44:44 -0500
Subject: Is  "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
In-Reply-To: <19990610204610.33585.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050286.23782.4835841317598719854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 01:46 PM 6/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Sanskrit? I can't believe that some of our learned regular contributors are
>taking this so seriously, instead of simply recommending Linguistics 0.1.

Actually, I appreciate the learned replies we got on that point -- it's a
quick way to learn something in Historical Linguistics and to get some
facts on Indo-Aryan derivations. I hope we get a lot more of these pieces
of information.

Gail Coelho




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 11 14:52:40 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 07:52:40 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
Message-ID: <161227050315.23782.14205983100999227214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Paul Manansala wrote:
>The Austric presence really extends beyond Eastern India. As we are
>limited to only one screen of text here it would be impossible to
>make my case on this forum.  Last time I got started, I mysteriously
>found myself suddenly unable to post to the list.  Eventually had to
>resubscribe. However, I've written on this subject elsewhere. Check
>out the website below and some of the related links.

Sure, Austric extends to Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia etc.,

Having known Dominik through the web for years, I don't see
a problem of intentional blocking to post; If there is a few
page summary on Austric contribution in Indian culture,
please mount it in the Indology web page in Member's queries
and information. Do you know Santali? Have you ever lived
in the Austric regions of India?

Regards.


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From gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Fri Jun 11 12:53:01 1999
From: gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Gail M. Coelho)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 07:53:01 -0500
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
In-Reply-To: <3760F443.A6DAC0CF@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227050293.23782.17789386371471075363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 04:34 AM 6/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Are you really saying that Latin -um, Greek -on and Sanskrit -am are
>related?
>
>I would think better of someone with your credentials (but can excuse
>Lars).
>
>Regards,
>Paul Kekai Manansala
>

Okay, so what are your reasons for claiming that they are not related?

Gail Coelho




From hart at POLBOX.COM  Fri Jun 11 07:50:18 1999
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 09:50:18 +0200
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
In-Reply-To: <199906110021.RAA08477@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227050255.23782.7137855381677166041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


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From thompson at JLC.NET  Fri Jun 11 13:58:34 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 09:58:34 -0400
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
In-Reply-To: <19990610221744.60690.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050299.23782.13423215562657058974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello Ganesan,

I don't have Masica's article at hand. The full reference is:

Colin Masica: "Aryan and non-Aryan elements in north Indian agriculture",
in *Aryan and non-Aryan in India*, 1970 [Univ. Michigan, ed. Deshpande and
Hook]. 

It is a long detailed article.

Also, if you have not seen it, you'll find this useful:

Franklin Southworth: "Ancient economic plants of South Asia", in *Languages
and Cultures: Studies in Honor of Edgar C. Polom?*, 1988 [Trends in
Linguistics Monograph 36, ed. M.A. Jazayery & W. Winter].

George 

At 03:17 PM 6/10/1999 PDT, you wrote:
><<<
>It is good that you pointed this out. What I said here is wrong.
>I meant that one third *of foreign words* in Hindi cannot be
>attributed to Dravidian or Munda, but rather to this language x.
>I did not mean one third of all Hindi words.
>
>These borrowed terms tend to be agricultural terms, by the way.
>>>>
>
>Dear George,
>
>Is there a word list of the agricultural terms
>that Masica talks about?
>
>Thanks,
>N. Ganesan
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>




From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 11 17:18:29 1999
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 10:18:29 -0700
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
Message-ID: <161227050327.23782.15778965378243284631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr Palaniappan,

Your posts make interesting reading. My objection at
that time, as it is now, is that your language centric
interpretation is quite foreign to what the tradition
itself understands. The tradition always thought in
terms of the Kanchi and the Srirangam groups of
acharyas.

Also, the language-centric theory needs to explain the
theory of vadama-cOzia origination of
vadakalai-tenkalai sects. It makes sense in a larger
context because of the geographical distribution seen
until late 19th century. Also, it is not clear if
there were any Tamil agama works of vaishnava
orientation (during/before Ramanuja's time)
considering the cOzia were mostly connected with
temple worship. In fact still are,  to some extent.

 I have not seen any fresh evidence to think that the
meaning of the word "kalai" in the ciRiya tirumaDal
verse is language or even texts. Knowledge of texts ?
Maybe.

 Also the use of this term for distinguishing the two
sects is circa 16th century, so I'm not sure if the
two contexts ( i.e., that of the pre 10th c texts and
of the 16th c sectarian appellation)  are relatable in
a direct sense.

Finally, one must bear in mind that the Vadakalai did
not deny the authority of the Prabandam nor did the
tenkalai, the veda. Actually far from it. Relative
emphasis from the point of view of daily religious
observance? Not at all. Relative emphasis from a
higher theological argumentation? Yes for tenkalai ,
not quite for vadakalai. Has it then given rise to the
self-appellation of the sects? I tend to think the
evidence garnered so far is weak.

When I can spare the time, I'll try hunting for late
usages of this word within the Srivaishnava canon
i.e., post 13th c to 17th c.  At this time, I'm rather
busy with my work so it might take a while.

Thanks and Warm Regards,

LS




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From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT  Fri Jun 11 09:19:12 1999
From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 10:19:12 +0100
Subject: Bhavisya Purana
In-Reply-To: <19990610232114.31842.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050263.23782.6285584133469881364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In reply to Vishal Agarwal's message of 10 Jun 99, 16:21


Thank you for the detailed explanation. The correspondences VikaTAvaTI =
Victoria and KalikAtA = Calcutta were already clear to me, but not so the
meaning of GuruNDa. However, in the VeGkatezvara edition I have not come
across the mention of "Hulbert" as VikaTAvatI's spouse, but of PulomArci,
which is rather more difficult to connect with Albert.

Many other late characters are mentioned in the printed BhSP in corrupted
form, including  BAbur (BAbara), HumAyUn (HomAyus), Akbar (Akabara),
AurangzEb (NavaraGga), etc. As for Jesus the Messiah, the rather singular
story of Iza MasIha / Izaputra is  found in BhSP III, 3, 2, 21 ff.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Magnone wrote:
> As for queen Victoria, the passage in question must be BhSP III, 4,
> 22, 72 ff., which is, however, quite unclear. It is about the monkey-
> faced (!) GuruNDas, the progeny of VikaTa (an ape ally of RAma),
> come for the purpose of trade, followers of the BauddhamArga and
> adherents of the creed of Izaputra (i. e. Jesus). Entrusted by Hari
> with the charge of the people, they settled in KalikAtA.VikaTAvatI,
> the queen (tatpanI = tat-patnI ?) of the western island of VikaTa,
> set up a royal counsel by way of the 8 Kauzala, and its king
> (tatpati) PulomArci went to KalikAtA...
> Any historians on the list who can offer a detailed explanation of
> the references?
>
> VA responds: The passage is clear. VikaTa is a corruption of Britain and
> Vikatavati/.Vikatapatni is a corruption of Victoria. This is clear from the
> context where 'Hulbert' (=Albert) is said to ber her spouse, which is
> historically correct. Such delibrate corruptions are common in the Purana.
> Other examples (all quotations are from memory)
> 1. Eve = Havyavati (from Persian Havva)
> 2. Aurangzeb = Naurangeb
> 3. Muhammad = MahAmad
> and so on.
>
> KaliKata is of course the name of the village/locality around which the city
> Calcutta evolved.
>
> Gurunda means 'white bodied' and I have encountered the word used in this
> sense even in 18-19th Cent. Marathi and Hindi literature. Cannot recall
> references off-hand.
>
> 'Monkey faced' was a popular description of Europeans till a few decades
> back. For instance, reference the following lines from Satyartha Prakasa
> Chap XI of Dayanand Sarasvati (paraphrase)
> "In ancient times, Europe was called 'Harivarsha. This is because the
> Europeans have white faces, red lips and brown hair like moneys." (One of
> the meanings of 'Hari' is monkey).
>
> Of course, the Purana also records a visit of North West India by Jesus
> where Emperor Salivahana is said to have honored him. As per the Indian
> Tradition, Salivahana was a junior contemproary of Emperor Vikramaditya (who
> is placed by popular Indian tradition in the 1st Cent. B.C.E.). You would be
> familiar with the context I am referring to, therefore I am not enclosing a
> summary here.
>
> A more detailed consideration of the passages would require direct
> consultation of the Purana (which I have not seen in 10 years now)  by me.
>
> To my knowledge, no critical edition of the Purana has been published by the
> All India Kashiraj Trust or by anyone else. If any manuscript, say older
> than 1830 C.E. excludes the passages on Victoria, then we can say that the
> printed versions are quite inflated with interpolations. The original
> Bhavisya Purana, however, was quite ancient. It is counted as an
> authoritative Purana by Al-Beruni and a verse from the 'Bhavasiya Purana' is
> cited even in the Apastamba Dharma Sutra. (Although I could not locate this
> verse in the printed editions of the Purana).
>
> Best regards
>
> Vishal
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>


----------------------------
Paolo Magnone
Catholic University of Milan
pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it
Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies
http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Fri Jun 11 14:33:00 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 10:33:00 -0400
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227050309.23782.12560498194537088547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:
>
> >What is your definition of Ancient India?
> >How many years is ancient?
>
> May I suggest a quantitative measure? Taking the latest, latest possible
> date for Rgveda as say 1000 BCE, let's say that the time scale we are
> interested spans 3000 years. The Khilafat movement dates to 1914, i.e. 85

Dear Vidyasankar, are you not aware of the fact that we do discuss
matters on this list which are more recent than RV?

Just today I have seen several messages concerning Auribindo and
Dayanand who, as far as I remember existed later than Ottoman empire. In
my view Ottoman empire had no less impact on the indologists than these
later personalities.


Have a peaceful and joyous day.

Aditya Mishra
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        Trespassers will be experimented on!




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 11 17:33:33 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 10:33:33 -0700
Subject: dakSiNAmUrti stotra, and Tamil and Kashmir zaivisms
Message-ID: <161227050330.23782.3029727766194211886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S. Vidyasankar asked:
 >Could you tell us about the significant features of the Tamil
 >dakshiNAmUrti devotional cult? Was Siva-dakshiNAmUrti primarily
 >viewed as a guru, rather than as the creator? Was there a great
 >emphasis on Siva's teaching through silence (mauna-vyAkhyA), and
 >on Siva as a youth teaching old disciples (vRddhAH zishyAH, gurur
 >yuva)? What do the Tamil sources say? Finally, had
 >the dakshiNAmUrti conception entered Chera land in early times,
 >or did it remain confined to Madurai and the pANDyan kingdom?

 >It is a central feature of Sankara's advaita vedAnta that silence
 >is the supreme teaching of the Atman (re: the story of bashkala
 >quoted in his bhAshya). This is also a central feature of Sanskrit
 >texts like the dakshiNAmUrti upanishad etc. Siva teaching through
 >silence is a powerful symbol for advaita vedAnta, and there is no
 >reason why this should not have been so from the earliest times.

Once I gave the TiruviLayATal purANam poem starting as "collAmal
colli" which explains Dakshinamurti teaching thru' silence.
Palaniappan gave some examples from Tevaram on this concept.

But Shiva teaching through silence goes back to Classical
Tamil sangam era. Take the Kalittokai poem 1.

In this poem of Shiva and Parvati dancing together and which cannot
be post-dated than 3rd century CE, Shiva's qualities
are described. Here "Shiva teaches Vedas to Brahmans,
holds Ganga in his hair, destroys the tripura,
teaches through silence, transcends all the teaching
as understood by humans and is a ferocious fighter"
(an approximate translation for the first 3 lines).

Looking at the words "kURAmal kuRittu atan2 mEl cellum kaTum kULi",
Shiva teaching through silence and transcending all that
teaching as understood by humans becomes clear.

     ARu aRi antaNarkku aru maRai pala pakarntu,
     tERu nIr caTai karantu, tiripuram tI maTuttu,
     kURAmal kuRittatan2 mEl cellum - kaTu kULi!
     mARA pOr maNi miTaRRu eN kaiyAy! kEL in2i -

     paTu paRai pala iyampa pal uruvam peyarttu nI
     koTukoTTi ATum kAl kOTu uyar akal alkul
     koTi purai nucuppin2AL koNTa cIr taruvAL O!

     maNTu amar pala kaTantu matukaiyAl nIRu aNintu
     paNTaragkam ATum kAl paNai ezil aNai mel tOL
     vaNTu araRRum kUntalAL vaLar tUkku taruvAL O!

     kolai uzuvai tOl acaI kon2Rai tAr cuval puraLa
     talai agkai koNTu nI kApAlam ATum kAl
     mulai aNinta muRuvalAL mun2 pANi taruvAL O!

Regards,
N. Ganesan




_______________________________________________________________
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From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU  Fri Jun 11 16:08:53 1999
From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 11:08:53 -0500
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
In-Reply-To: <3761DED7.BB538279@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227050321.23782.6831276308526047420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Website not available.  See the following error message:

HTTP Error 404

404 Not Found

The Web server cannot find the file or script you asked for. Please check
the URL to ensure that the path is correct.

Please contact the server's administrator if this problem persists.

Can you recheck your website?

Hans Henrich Hock


>"N.Ganesan" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Having known Dominik through the web for years, I don't see
>> a problem of intentional blocking to post; If there is a few
>> page summary on Austric contribution in Indian culture,
>> please mount it in the Indology web page in Member's queries
>> and information.
>
>The pages are available already and probably are too large to "mount"
>on to the Indology website.
>
>Regards,
>Paul Kekai Manansala
>http://www.geocites.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 11 18:59:15 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 11:59:15 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
Message-ID: <161227050333.23782.16460541115266424194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

     Dear Paul,

     Can you give us some examples of the great "contribution in
     all regards" by Austric folks in India please? Thanks.


--- Paul Kekai Manansala <kekai at JPS.NET> wrote:
> "N.Ganesan" wrote:
> > >
> > Austric is too small geographically and historically in India;
> > It never developed a civilization comparable to Dravidian.
> >
>
> Not really.  It is only the Austric contribution as recognized by (most)
> modern scholars that appears to be small.  The actual fact of the matter
> is that the evidence suggests the contribution in all regards is quite
> great.
>
> Regards,
> Paul Kekai Manansala
> http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm
>

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Jun 11 10:21:24 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 12:21:24 +0200
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
Message-ID: <161227050266.23782.14697218357786883033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> In this respect,  Dayananda states in his "Summary of my beliefs" (at
> No. 30) that:
>
> "This country is called Aryavarta because it has been the abode of the
> Aryas from the very dawn of Creation. It is bounded on the north by
> the Himalayas, on the south by the Vindhyachala mountains, on the west
> by the Attok (Indus), and on the east by the Brahmaputra. The land
> included within these limits is Aryavarta and those that have been
> living in it from times immemorial are also called Aryas."
>
> (Light on Truth: or An English Translation of the Satyarth Prakash.
> Trans. Chiranjiva Bharadwaja.  Delhi: Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi
> Sabha, 1975, p.729.)
>
> And Yadav, in his introduction to Dayananda's autobiography, writes:
>
> "Dayanand's next concern was to arouse national consciousness among
> his people. To begin with, he examined the plans of his predecessors
> and concluded that these men, though well-intentioned, had borrowed
> too heavily from the West. He believed that no nation could build its
> edifice on a foreign foundation. He, therefore, gave a clarion call to
> his countrymen to go back to the Vedas, and to lay their foundations
> on them.
> This was, as rightly put by Aurobindo Ghosh, surely a master glance of
> practical intution on Dayanand's part, for, in a real sense, the Vedas
> were the original source of religion, culture and civilization of
> India; they were the foundations of Indian thought, philosophy and
> knowledge; and they 'concealed in themselves the  seed for a radical
> new birth of the Indian nation.' "

Thank you Louis. This means that some of my other sources are not
entirely correct, or at least not complete. Here is what Jaffrelot says:

The Aryans of the Vedic era are described as a chosen people to whom
"the formless God revealed perfect knowledge of the Veda". Some time
after Creation, they came down from Tibet into Aryavarta - a virgin
territory between the Himalayas and Vindhya mountains, the Indus and the
Brahmaputra - and then became the "sovereign lords of the Earth", whose
inhabitants they instructed in Sanskrit, the "mother of all languages".
Jaffrelot refers to "The Light of Truth", pp. 248, 277-9, and 341-5.

Hans Joachim Klimkeit also mentions the Tibetan theory (Klimkeit,
Hans-Joachim. 1981. Der politische Hinduismus. Indische Denker zwischen
religi?ser Reform und politischem Erwachen. Wiesbaden: Otto
Harrassowitz., p. 233)

Jordans also mentions the Tibetan theory, sp. 254. However, Jordans also
state that D. rejected the Aryan invasion theory. In other words, the
Aryans that presumably entered India from Tibet came to an emptly
territory. This is admittedly an important nuance.

So once again, thank you for the reference. It is very useful, and shows
that the seeds of Indigenous Aryanism go back into the nineteenth
century, even if Dayananda is somewhat ambivalent in his formulations.

Lars Martin




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Jun 11 10:38:16 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 12:38:16 +0200
Subject: Sri Aurobindo
Message-ID: <161227050268.23782.6178752519890850293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Harry Spier wrote:

> Lar Martin Fosse Asked:
>
>
> The Seventh Impression 1993 edition Pb. ISBN 81-7058-191-5,
> Bd. ISBN 81-7058-192-3 has the following information
> printed on the page just before the table of contents. I quote.
>
> "First published in the monthly review Arya between
> August 1914 and January 1920."
>

Dear Harry Spier and the rest of you who have answered my inquiry: my
heartfelt thanks. You have shown that Indology still has a purpose! g

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 11 19:53:59 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 12:53:59 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050339.23782.14891397291867564392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Swaminathan Madhuresan <smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> >>Are you really saying that Latin -um, Greek -on and Sanskrit -am
> are
> >>related?
>
> >
> > Okay, so what are your reasons for claiming that they are not
> related?
> >
> > Gail Coelho
> >
>
> I do not think there are any serious reasons.
>
> Regards,
> SM
>
I think it is not so easy to dimiss it.
Then could someone answer my question (posted eons ago and got lost in
this stampeded) asking
*when* north indian IE speakers started dropping the final (or even
middle) -a and -am from Skt words...as e.g. in
Skt. kumArasambhavam --> kumArsambhav
Skt. mayUram -> mayUr ...etc.

Regards
Chandra

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Fri Jun 11 12:09:26 1999
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 13:09:26 +0100
Subject: CSX+ fonts & cross-platform email exchange
In-Reply-To: <3760F8FC.9894C800@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050279.23782.18045451852246061039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> Like you, I have for various reasons to use a Windows-PC, although my
> experiences with the Mac are much better when it comes to handling our kind of
> material. I have heard nice things about Linux. Have any of you had any
> experience with the use of Linux as an operating system?

I have used Linux for over five years. It is a far better product than
Windows -- even Win NT -- with a huge range of excellent software; it is
also free. It has now matured to the point where the major distributions
are easy to install/upgrade and pretty straightforward to administer.

The down side (from most people's point of view) is that Linux is a Unix
clone. If you want to use Unix, I can't think of a better solution at
reasonable cost (i.e. buy a PC and throw away the bundled Windows OS). But
many -- probably most -- people would find Unix difficult to handle. If
your idea of a nice machine is a Mac, forget it: Unix is a system that has
to be *learnt*, and the learning curve is neither short nor shallow.

Typically, text handling on a Unix machine is done in plain text files,
using a typesetter such as TeX for printed copy. CSX can be made to work
in this configuration (I use it as a matter of course); CSX+ would just
take a bit of extra effort. But more PC-like word processors and other
similar "application" software have now started to appear, so that route
is also available; the existing CSX+ fonts should work fine with these
packages.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Jun 11 11:54:37 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 13:54:37 +0200
Subject: CSX+ fonts & cross-platform email exchange
Message-ID: <161227050277.23782.9090273809146895385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Also, Windows98 with Word really does not like some of the encodings (with
> ASCII codes directly above 128); the printer often goes mad from them
> (irregular spacing etc.).
> Of course no sane person would use Windows - if he has the choice. It seems
> many of us do not have.
> Any solution?
>

Like you, I have for various reasons to use a Windows-PC, although my
experiences with the Mac are much better when it comes to handling our kind of
material. I have heard nice things about Linux. Have any of you had any
experience with the use of Linux as an operating system?

Lars Martin Fosse




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Fri Jun 11 08:53:06 1999
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 14:23:06 +0530
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
In-Reply-To: <v04011703b385a27d8120@[128.174.52.170]>
Message-ID: <161227050258.23782.9543265634016043561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My suggestion may seem wild, but was based on the following facts:

+ The word `Sanskrit' does not occur anywhere in the Vedas as the name of
  a language.
+ Panini refers to the language he uses as `Chandasa' and not `Samskrta'.
  Hence he was unaware of any language called Sanskrit.
+ Buddha never heard of Sanskrit; he only knew of `Chandas'.

IE DERIVATION :
-------------
  Prof. Hock has given a good IE derivation : " the Skt. morphemes
_sam-_ 'together, complete(ly)' and _(s)kR-_ 'make, do', [ lead to
Sanskrit = ] 'polished, refined'." However,

+ `together'+`do' = `refined' does not seem to be logical.
  The morphological combination `samskrutam' = `do together', which would
  literally mean `marriage'. `polished' may have been invented later.

 However, if nobody can think of a suitable Dravidian etymology on the
linss of Prof. Hock's IE derivat'n, then I shall have to retract the idea.

AM and UM :
---------
 Prof. Fosse wrote "-am is the Sansk equivalent of Latin -um & Greek -on."

+ `-um' occurring in Greek may represent Mediterranean substratum (which
  is in turn related to Dravidian). A Dravidian substratum in India and
  a similar one in South Europe would have the same result on IE.
  Lahovery has given ample examples of the pervasive Med.substratum in IE.

Only if -um is found in regions where no Dravido-Mediterranean substratum
preceded the Aryan can one say that it is conclusively IE.

 Prof. Thompson has cited important material showing that Vedic has only 5
% Dravidian. However, later Sanskrit has 30-50 % Dravidian. This is one
of the reasons why I consider Sans. and Vedic separate languages. As Prof.
Thompson rightly points out, studies have to be done to elucidate the
transition, whether it was a `quantum leap' or a gradual process.

+ "Sanskrit and Vedic are to each other as English and Old Germanic,
  Sanskrit morphology is IE,      and its vocabulary is Dravidian, while
  English  ---"--------  Germanic, ---------"---------- Romance." - Samar

> " Significantly, the vast majority of the basic lexical and morphological
> elements of Sanskrit is of Indo-European origin," (- Prof. Hock)

I agree with this. However, the morphological and structural similarity
does not extend to the sphere of vocabulary :

 " The Indo-European nature of Sanscrit and Pracrit is mostly evident in
 their structure and morphology, while their vocabulary is LARGELY formed
 of Dravidian and other loanwords."
 - `Pracritic and non-Aryan strata in the vocabulary of S. Patna',
   A.C.Woolner, Sir J.Asutosh Memorial Volume, 1926, cited in N.Lahovary,
   `Dravidian Origins and the West',  Orient Longmans, Bombay 1963.

> " This difference [ of morphemes ] precludes the
> wholesale derivation either of Sanskrit from Dravidian or Austric (Samar
> Abbas's favorite proposal) " ... (Prof. Hock)

 I do not claim that IE or Vedic is derived from Dravidian; I have only
suggested that the word `Sanskrit' may be.

Samar




From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE  Fri Jun 11 14:37:21 1999
From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 14:37:21 +0000
Subject: CSX+ fonts & cross-platform email exchange
Message-ID: <161227050261.23782.15996773447486148546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Date:          Thu, 10 Jun 1999 06:15:30 +0200
> From:          Jaap Pranger <yaap at XS4ALL.NL>

> Windows and Mac versions of the CSX+ fonts seem to have
> identical encodings, in contrast to what is usual.
>
> Data based on CSX+ fonts, when exchanged across platforms
> through email, gets scrambled due to the usual automagical
> MIME re-encoding.
>
> Any workarounds for this problem?

Perhaps you could try UUencoding? See whether the mailer software
which you use offers that option.

The surest way would probably be to send data in an archive. There
are compatible Mac and PC archivers for ZIP and LZH formats (and
perhaps other formats too), and besides reducing the size of the data
package that is sent, the archive works as a protective envelope
around the data. I used to do this regularly years back when sending
texts between a Mac in Canada (using MacLha, a Japanese program
available free of cost) and a PC in the Netherlands (using Lha.exe,
idem ditto) by modem. It should work via the internet too. Because
archives are not recognised by mailer software as documents, they are
sent as binary files, and therefore mysterious transformations like
those which you have experienced will not occur.

An alternative could be to send texts in RTF format, because RTF
files are basically plain ASCII files. But this will not be so secure
as sending archives.

RZ

Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Mysore (India)
e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.de




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 11 22:02:33 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 15:02:33 -0700
Subject: yAzmuRippaN (Re: viLari and tODi rAga)
Message-ID: <161227050346.23782.16355909926744343644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Periannan Chandrasekaran <perichandra at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>VPK Sundaram establishes with evidences that this story of the breaking of
>the lute
>because nIlakaNDa yAzp pANar could not keep pace with tiruJana campantar is
>unfounded. He says that first of all the "Rakaram" there is wrong :  it
>should the softer "r":

Interesting. Is there any known textual source of the story about yAzh
pANar? Or is it one of those tales that get reinforced by simple repetition?

Vidyasankar


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From kekai at JPS.NET  Sat Jun 12 02:33:01 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 19:33:01 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227050302.23782.4982042844852888519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Samar Abbas wrote:
>
> > " Significantly, the vast majority of the basic lexical and morphological
> > elements of Sanskrit is of Indo-European origin," (- Prof. Hock)
>
> I agree with this. However, the morphological and structural similarity
> does not extend to the sphere of vocabulary :
>

I think the morphological and structural similarity is limited to
Chandas.  Sanskrit is very similar in structure to Dravidian.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sat Jun 12 02:34:46 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 19:34:46 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
Message-ID: <161227050304.23782.16434433733271685976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N.Ganesan" wrote:
> >
> Austric is too small geographically and historically in India;
> It never developed a civilization comparable to Dravidian.
>

Not really.  It is only the Austric contribution as recognized by (most)
modern scholars that appears to be small.  The actual fact of the matter
is that the evidence suggests the contribution in all regards is quite
great.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sat Jun 12 02:58:37 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 19:58:37 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
Message-ID: <161227050312.23782.16014459268933657271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N.Ganesan" wrote:
>

> Earlier I wrote about the contrasts about Dravidian and Austric
> cultures in India. Munda prsence is felt only in the Eastern India.
> If Austric contribution is vast, why it was never committed
> to writing, and also always with tribals?
>

The Austric presence really extends beyond Eastern India. As we are
limited to only one screen of text here it would be impossible to make
my case on this forum.  Last time I got started, I mysteriously found
myself suddenly unable to post to the list.  Eventually had to
resubscribe. However, I've written on this subject elsewhere. Check
out the website below and some of the related links.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
http://www.he.net/~skyeagle/afro.htm




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 11 19:24:38 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 20:24:38 +0100
Subject: yAzmuRippaN (Re: viLari and tODi rAga)
Message-ID: <161227050336.23782.1644306628673257046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This is to clarify the misconceptions and myths surrounding the term
"yAzmuRip paN" ("the melody that caused breaking of the lute") cited in
the following old Indology posting relevant portions of which are reproduced
below.
-----------------------------
Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:13:29 -0700
From:         Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vidya at CCO.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: viLari and tODi rAga (was Re: Q: Tamil literature)

I think Palaniappa is right in saying that the word narampu refers to the
individual note/string. Besides the straightforward linguistic meaning,
there is a practical matter which should decide the issue. Let us leave
the comparison of the octave to the zodiac signs aside, as it could just
be poetic in origin, and not have anything practical to do with music. How
does one execute the vaTTappAlai or the kural tiripu in real life?
..................

.................
These instruments were probably more like harps/santoors/svar-maNDals.
If so, the old story in which nIlakaNTa yAzhpANar was unable accompany a
singer on his yAzh is also explained. The melody got the name yAzhmuRippaN
(nowadays identified with aTANa), on account of this. If the yAzh were
anything like a modern fretted stringed instrument, there should have been
no problem in reproducing any of the standard vocal features on it. On the
other hand, if the yAzh were more like a harp, the task would have been
impossible.

Vidyasankar
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


VPK Sundaram establishes with evidences that this story of the breaking of
the lute
because nIlakaNDa yAzp pANar could not keep pace with tiruJana campantar is
unfounded. He says that first of all the "Rakaram" there is wrong :  it
should the softer "r":
"yAz muri" ;and that secondly  "yAz muri" or simply "muri" is a way of
rendering a bunch of paNs
or melodies and is not the name of a specific melody such as atAnA or
nIlAmpari.
He says that aDiyArkku nallAr, the master commentator , clearly
states this  in his commentary (to  the classical Tamil epic cilappatikAram)
wherein
he cites the following cUttiram:

"
eDutta iyalum icaiyum tammil
murittup pADutal muri en2ap paDumE"

VPK sundaram also states that the melody called niLambari was one of the
earliest
sung with muri.


Source:
 "tamiz marapu icai (karunATaka icai)"
 [Tamil Classical Music (Carnatic Music)]
supplied with the 2-CD music album rendering of  tirukkuRaL kAmattuppAl
performed by SPB and Chitra
and released by the International Tamil Langauge Foundation,
Chicago, IL, USA. 1998.

Regards,
Chandra




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sat Jun 12 04:15:19 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 21:15:19 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
Message-ID: <161227050318.23782.377831476648662956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N.Ganesan" wrote:
>
>
>
> Having known Dominik through the web for years, I don't see
> a problem of intentional blocking to post; If there is a few
> page summary on Austric contribution in Indian culture,
> please mount it in the Indology web page in Member's queries
> and information.

The pages are available already and probably are too large to "mount"
on to the Indology website.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
http://www.geocites.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm




From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 11 20:24:44 1999
From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 21:24:44 +0100
Subject: Sanskritists in Mainz and Frankfurt
Message-ID: <161227050341.23782.1166697962276900951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

June 11, 99

I shall be in Bad Schwalbach in Germany from July 2-4 in
connection with a Yogic course. As a retired professor of Sanskrit
and Marathi from India, now in London, I would be happy to meet
Sanskritists nearby and have talks with them if possible.

K S Arjunwadkar <arjunwadkar at mcmail.com>




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sat Jun 12 04:56:24 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 99 21:56:24 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
Message-ID: <161227050324.23782.8000069966976761189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hans Henrich Hock wrote:
>
> Website not available.  See the following error message:

Yes, try this again. I left an "i" out of geocities:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 12 08:08:22 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 09:08:22 +0100
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227050349.23782.4432492093238669678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic <a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG> wrote:

>Just today I have seen several messages concerning Auribindo and
>Dayanand who, as far as I remember existed later than Ottoman empire.

Ah, but both these people had something to say about Indologically
pertinent topics - the age or meaning of the Veda, the Aryan homeland etc.

Vidyasankar




From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU  Sat Jun 12 15:13:49 1999
From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 10:13:49 -0500
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
Message-ID: <161227050362.23782.3300969463369266698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just curious, Paul Kekai Manansala:
I tried this url
>http://www.geocites.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm
and got this message:
>HTTP Error 404

>404 Not Found

>The Web server cannot find the file or script you asked for. Please check the
>URL to ensure that the path is correct.

.Please contact the server's administrator if this problem persists.




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Sat Jun 12 14:20:11 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 10:20:11 -0400
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227050358.23782.11729858655894643609.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:
>
> Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic <a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG> wrote:
>
> >Just today I have seen several messages concerning Auribindo and
> >Dayanand who, as far as I remember existed later than Ottoman empire.
>
> Ah, but both these people had something to say about Indologically
> pertinent topics - the age or meaning of the Veda, the Aryan homeland etc.

Please do not keep changing your argument like a chameleon. The question
was about the recentness only and not about the Vedas etc. Many postings
concerning these individuals that I have seen just did not discuss Veda.
The Khilafat movement was very pertinent to the relationship of muslim
attitudes to the indological studies at the time.


Have a peaceful and joyous day.

Aditya Mishra
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Sat Jun 12 09:49:44 1999
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 10:49:44 +0100
Subject: workshop Soma-Haoma 3-4 July, Leiden
Message-ID: <161227050351.23782.12442687556824998638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A workshop
The Soma-Haoma Cult in Early Vedism and Zoroastrism: Archeology, Text, and
Ritual
will be held at Leiden University, 3-4 July.
Special attention will be paid to the implications of recent archeological
findings in Turkmenistan (ancient Margiana) for the 'perennial' issue of the
identity of the Soma.
The complex problem of the Soma/Haoma cult involves the archeological
interpretation of material remains (making use also of botanic and medical
knowledge), the philological understanding of ancient Vedic and Avestan texts,
and an antropologically sound reconstruction of an evolving ritual system
connected with the material remains and texts.
Speakers include V.I. Sarianidi, H. Falk, W. Vogelsang, A.F. de Jong.

For more information and registration you are invited to contact J.E.M. Houben:
(0)71-5272951 / email: jhouben at rullet.leidenuniv.nl




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Sat Jun 12 16:21:56 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 12:21:56 -0400
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian?
Message-ID: <161227050365.23782.14467532149824590652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Rabe wrote:
>
> Just curious, Paul Kekai Manansala:
> I tried this url
> >http://www.geocites.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm
> and got this message:

This is due to the misspelled url which should be
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm

It occurs when some one manually enters the url in a message. To avoid
such errors it is best to copy and paste the url from a bookmark or
browser.

It was to easy to detect this mistake since I know how the popular site
geocities is spelled.


Have a peaceful and joyous day.

Aditya Mishra
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        I am in total control, but don't tell my wife.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 12 20:16:18 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 13:16:18 -0700
Subject: Secular South Asia
Message-ID: <161227050369.23782.4706704388479983900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic" <a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG> wrote:

>
>Please do not keep changing your argument like a chameleon. The question
>was about the recentness only and not about the Vedas etc. Many postings
>concerning these individuals that I have seen just did not discuss Veda.

Dear Mr. Mishra,

Do go back to my first response where I talked about weighting for impact,
over and above the time scale. If the eye is faulty, do not blame the object
of perception.

The gentlemen discussing Dayananda and Aurobindo can speak for themselves,
but my impression is that these recent personalities are interesting on this
forum because of what they wrote about the Veda.

>The Khilafat movement was very pertinent to the relationship of muslim
>attitudes to the indological studies at the time.

Was it really? The Khilafat movement was a child that was born without vital
organs, only kept in an incubator for a while to satisfy the parents. Indian
Muslims had never acknowledged the Ottoman emperor as their overlord. And
even when those fighting for Indian Independence were trying to use this as
an opportunity to forge an elusive Hindu-Muslim unity, much stronger winds
of change were blowing across the remnants of the Ottoman empire. And in
India itself, things moved so rapidly as to make the entire thing a
non-issue. Let the dead past bury its dead.

Vidyasankar


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From yaap at XS4ALL.NL  Sat Jun 12 13:49:10 1999
From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 15:49:10 +0200
Subject: CSX+ fonts & cross-platform email exchange
In-Reply-To: <199906120720.JAA27458@smtp4.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <161227050355.23782.13263229811355185211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Robert Zydenbos <zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE> wrote:

>Perhaps you could try UUencoding? See whether the mailer software
>which you use offers that option.

Eudora Light (Mac) has the AppleDouble option, it does the same
trick, UUencoding is available. I will try.

>The surest way would probably be to send data in an archive. There
>are compatible Mac and PC archivers for ZIP and LZH formats (and
>perhaps other formats too), and besides reducing the size of the data
>package that is sent, the archive works as a protective envelope
>around the data. I used to do this regularly years back when sending
>texts between a Mac in Canada (using MacLha, a Japanese program
>available free of cost) and a PC in the Netherlands (using Lha.exe,
>idem ditto) by modem. It should work via the internet too. Because
>archives are not recognised by mailer software as documents, they are
>sent as binary files, and therefore mysterious transformations like
>those which you have experienced will not occur.

Actually I was thinking in this direction already, but I'm not too
familiar with all the encoding and compression formats. Thanks a lot!
I will try and let you know, but unfortunately that won't be
before late next week as I'm short of fursat right now.

Another probable solution I had in mind is to write a "transliteration
table" for use in Eudora that reverses the re-encoding of text.
But that doesn't seem like a very elegant solution to me. A general
text converter might be better.

>An alternative could be to send texts in RTF format, because RTF
>files are basically plain ASCII files. But this will not be so secure
>as sending archives.

No, this didn't work, RTF's are recognised as text files by Eudora
and are converted.




Ferenc Ruzsa <f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU> wrote:

>Of course no sane person would use Windows - if he has the choice.
>It seems many of us do not have.

Hmmm, I tend to agree with you in the spirit, but how dare you say
such a thing in plain public in a war prone environment?  ;-)





Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:

>I have heard nice things about Linux. Have any of you had any
>experience with the use of Linux as an operating system?

No experience, but as an OS it should be OK. The lack of an easy user
interface is an other story. However, within a year from now we may
expect to see Apple's flavour of Unix (Mac OS X Consumer), including
the trusted graphical user interface.





John Smith <jds10 at CAM.AC.UK> wrote:

>Typically, text handling on a Unix machine is done in plain text files,
>using a typesetter such as TeX for printed copy. CSX can be made to work
>in this configuration (I use it as a matter of course); CSX+ would just
>take a bit of extra effort. But more PC-like word processors and other
>similar "application" software have now started to appear, so that route
>is also available; the existing CSX+ fonts should work fine with these
>packages.

Can you easily exchange Tex documents with Windows and MacOS
users?  I guess you can, but please tell.

Sure, TeX is quite powerful and nice as a typesetting program. But as
far as I can see it takes a -lot of extra- effort, and also it is not very
transparent when it comes to editing text. Also the overhead of all the
software components, font utilities, and knowledge you need. This
may be acceptable for compositors, but in word processing this extra
effort should (and soon can) be kept under the hood.

I hope and pray the suffering will come to an end within one or two years
when native Unicode operating systems with real Unicode based word
processors and database applications should be in place.

BTW, John, last year in Conv-Dev you mentioned ACII.  You said: "ACII
is the name used for the full 8-bit character set comprising 7-bit ASCII
in the lower half and 7-bit ISCII in the upper half."
Is this charset in use anywhere? I can't imagine reasonable Nagari
coming out from a 7-bit subset.

Thanks all,

Jaap Pranger

--




From nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM  Sun Jun 13 02:08:13 1999
From: nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM (Nicholas Bedworth)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 16:08:13 -1000
Subject: Pindasarani Tables for Vaastu
Message-ID: <161227050390.23782.2105442280259237368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone have access to tables that give dimensions for Sthapatya
Ved/Vaastu construction based upon nakshatra, etc.? These are apparently
known as pindasarani tables. I have one here, but it's in devanagari; I can
send a gif of it do anyone who would be so kind as to translate it for me.
It would probably take about 5 minutes; there are about 50 common words
around the periphery, and then a table of numbers.




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Sat Jun 12 12:10:42 1999
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 16:10:42 +0400
Subject: Historicity of The Flood
Message-ID: <161227050353.23782.16815634941995518760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many thanks to Paolo Magnone for his rational and helpful critique of my
"list of similiarities" (in the message of 11 June 1999). Here are my answers
to some of his remarks:


>> 1. Both INDIA and MESOPOTAMIA: a pious man is warned about the flood. A
>> god/fish gives him advice to build an ark/ship. The difference between two
>> forms of a benefactor is diminished by the fact that Sumerian/Mesopotamian
>> god Ea/Enki sometimes appears in the form of a fish.

Paolo Magnone:
>You overlook the paramount difference here: ....One of the most prominent
>features in the Mesopotamian myth is the ethical context and the structure:
>crime - punishment - reconciliation, which is conspicuous for its absence
>in all Indian versions which I know about (except for a faint shade in
>a couple of quite late developments).

 The difference which you stress is the difference in religious ideology.
Even one and the same archaic myth can be filled in different historical
period with different ideological contents. But the structure of the plot
remains often the same. In the common protoform of both Mesopotamian and Indian
myth the hero was, I believe,  no *pious* and no *innocent* man, but rather
*a man who helped a mysterious animal/fish/god-in-disguise* (a "grateful
animal" motif).
        The Indian myth by its archaic plot-structure is much closer to the
Mesopotamian myth, than, e.g., to the Austro-Asiatic versions where brother
and sister escape in a hollow pumpkin, and to numerous other flood myths all
over the world.


>> 2. MESOPOTAMIA: the
>> pious man takes on board "the seed of souls of every kind"; INDIA: Manu
>> takes on board "seeds of all kinds" (Mbh).

Paolo Magnone:
>What version are you referring to? As far as I know, near-eastern
>versions do not typically mention "seeds", but couples, or in any
>case "complete" beings. In Uta-napiStim's account, seeds are
>mentioned together with gold, silver, kinsmen, servants, craftsmen,
>beasts and cattle. On the other hand, there are no seeds nor any
>survivors apart from Manu in the most ancient Indian version, that of
>ZBr, which should accordingly be closer to the near-eastern
>prototype. The reason is plain to see: Manu has got to procreate all
>alone, by dint of zrama and sacrifice according to the usual
>brahmanical pattern. Likewise, when seeds do appear, in later
>versions, there is no need to conjure up far-reaching connections
>with Sumer-Akkad: they can be much better explained with the
>Indian notion of zeSa which plays an all-important role in pratisarga
>myths (under which heading the deluge myth belongs).

    In the Sumerian Flood story (line 70 [259 - in Lambert & Millard,
Atra-Hasis, Oxford, 1969]) - it is said that Ziusudra "saved the seed of
mankind"; in the Akkadian poem of Gilgamesh (XI.27) the god orders
Ut(ta)-napizti "to take the seed of all souls into the ship" (the late
Igor M.Diakonoff in his poetic Russian translation wrote "take aboard
everything living", but gave this literal translastion in his commentary).
    As for the appearance of the "seeds" in the late Indian versions of the
Flood myth, mythic narratives sometimes revive or reveal somehow the motifs
of hoary antiquity which seem to have been present in them during the
centuries in some latent form. I am sure you are well acquainted with this
phenomenon.

>> 4. Both INDIA
>> and MESOPOTAMIA: landing at the top of a mountain.

> What else is left, when the low lands are flooded?

        It could be. e.g., a great tree, like in the Markandeya myth or in some
South-East Asian Flood stories; or the water could sink at all, by itself or
by the will of god - and so on.

>> 5. Both: the final
>> sacrifice. MIDDLE EAST: the God "sensed the smell of Noah's sacrifice"
>> (Bible), gods like flies sense the smell and come together to Utnapishti's
>> sacrifice; INDIA: Manu poured into the water clarified butter, milk etc.:
>> out of it arose IDA (ILA), soon after that "Mitra and VaruNa met her",
>> i.e. the sacrificial offering (as in Mesopotamian accounts too) reached
>> the gods.

P.Magnone:
>This is an example in point, showing to what extent "material"
>similarities can be misleading. The import of near-eastern sacrifice
>fluctuates between thanksgiving and propitiation. In the Uta-
>napiStim account it brings out the dependence of the gods on
>human sacrifice and thus effectively seals the reconciliation
>between gods and men. The sacrifice plays no part in the
>propagation of creatures: obviously, the surviving couples will take
>care of it in the usual way.
>On the other hand, in the ZBr version it is Manu's procreative
>concern that prompts the sacrifice. When the flood is over, there is
>no need to appease the gods, because there was no fault to
>expiate, and the flood itself was no vengeance, but a due event in
>the course of things (although in the ZBr an explicit cyclic context
>is still missing). The outcome of the sacrifice, i. e. IDA, the
>quintessence of sacrifice, is not "offered" to the gods. Mitra-VaruNa
>do not even know who she is, and hearing the she is Manu's
>daughter, try to appropriate her: "say you are ours!" but she
>refuses, and goes to Manu. Here it is the self-sufficient power of
>sacrifice as man's inalienable property that is extolled, pursuant to
>the brahmanical ideology of the preeminence of sacrifice. In
>subsequent versions, the sacrifice no longer fulfilled any essential
>task in the matsyAvatAra myth, and was accordingly dropped.

        In spite of your brilliant "ritual" interpretation of the IDA
episode, it still seems to me to be rather obscure and unnatural as a
narrative sequence. In any such case it is normal to suggest that we deal
with some archaic motif, misunderstood and misinterpreted. I still think
that the archaic narrative sequence "the sacrifice of the Flood-survivor
reached the gods" (the heritage of the "substratum" myth^ probably) could
very well be reinterpreted by the authors of the ZatBr in the light of their
contemporary "theory" of ritual.

>>... birds appear in some
>> tribal Indian flood myths: e.g., God sends two birds to see are there any
>> survivors after the flood, the birds perch on the "ark" (hollow log) and
>> hear the voices of children (survivors) inside (Kamars).

> I would like to have references on this.

           See the relevant chapter in the "Folklore in the Old Testament"
by good old J.G.Frazer.

       Many thanks again. I shall duly think over all your other suggestions.
I am sorry that my answer took too many screens. I can only save on my other
postings this month.

        Best regards,
                                        Yaroslav Vassilkov




From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 12 22:00:38 1999
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 18:00:38 -0400
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050380.23782.459414583533647543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Robert Zydenbos asks:
>Seeing that some of the list members have been reading Aurobindo,
>someone may help me with a reference. I was told that has written
>somewhere that the prominence that is given to Advaitavedanta is not
>the result of a natural development in Indian philosophy, but due to
>the interest given in that school of thought by Western authors. Has
>anyone on the list come across such a statement, and if so: where
>does it occur?
>
>RZ

See: The Foundations of Indian Culture ISBN (Bd.) 81-7058-304-7, ISBN (Pb.)
81-7058-01-7 Seventh Impression: 1992, published by Sri Aurobindo Ashram
page 71.  The publishers note says that this is from an article published in
the monthly review "Arya" sometime between December 1918 and January 1921.

I quote:
"...It is only recently that educated India accepted the ideas of English
and German scholars, imagined for a time Shankara's Mayavada to be the one
highest thing, if not the whole of our philosophy, and put it in a place of
exclusive prominence. ..."

Yours,


Harry Spier


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From bhebbar at EROLS.COM  Sat Jun 12 22:15:05 1999
From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 18:15:05 -0400
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050383.23782.617672998358309628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear  Indologists  specializing  in  Dravidian  studies:

I  need  your  informed  opinions,  comments,  observations  etc.  on
the  following:

According  to  Prof. N.Subramaniam  (who  has  been  given  the  title
"Historian  of  the  Tamils"  by  Prof. R. Sathyanathaier)  says  in
book  "The  History  of  Tamilnad  to  AD  1336": "The  Dravidian
speech  was  introduced  into  South  India  by  a  group  of  people
who  migrated  from  the  original  home,  i.e. from  the  Eastern
Mediterranean  region  to  South  India.  When  exactly  this  occurred
it  is  difficult  to  say."  (p.22)


Also,  Dr. David  W. McAlpin  has  written  a  tract  entitled
"Proto-Elamo-Dravidian:  The  Evidence  and  its  Implications"
(American  Philosophical  Society,  Philadelphia:1981)  seems  to  imply
that  the  Dravidians  have  connections  outside  India.

Since,  the  "Aryan  migration"  theory  was  being  so  hotly
discussed,  I  am  curious  to  know  if,  in  the  light  of  the
above,  the  "Dravidian  migration"  theory  had  any  connections  and
implications  to  the  "Aryan"  one.

Also,  are  there  any  people  in  South  Asia  who  neither  speak  an
"Aryan"  nor  Dravidian  language?  If  so,  where  would  they  fit  in
to  all  this?  And  are  there  any  theories  on  these  people?  Are
the  Veddas  of  Ceylon  these  people?

Many  thanks  in  advance  to  all  who  respond.

Waiting  for  your  learned  responses,

Regards,
B.N.Hebbar




From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE  Sat Jun 12 20:13:55 1999
From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 20:13:55 +0000
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050360.23782.7642616727327588103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Seeing that some of the list members have been reading Aurobindo,
someone may help me with a reference. I was told that has written
somewhere that the prominence that is given to Advaitavedanta is not
the result of a natural development in Indian philosophy, but due to
the interest given in that school of thought by Western authors. Has
anyone on the list come across such a statement, and if so: where
does it occur?

RZ




From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Sun Jun 13 03:48:26 1999
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 20:48:26 -0700
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
In-Reply-To: <3760E323.77D14582@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050397.23782.7725488270642004642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin,

Your sources are correct.  I checked The Light of Truth," although the page
numbers in the edition I have here with me are not the same.  It is Dayananda
who seems to contradict himself.

See the long quote below, which I copied with a scanner.

Luis


Dayananda Saraswati on the origin of the Aryas
(From The Light of Truth)
Most of the book is written in a question and answer format.  According to a
footnote by the translator (p. 2, n. 3), the ?O? stands for ?Imaginary
Objector,? and the ?A? for ?Author.?

[p. 264]

O.- Where was man first created.
A.- In Trivishtap otherwise called Tibet. 

O.-Were all men of one class or divided into different classes at the time of
Creation?
A.-They all belonged to one class, viz., that of man, but later on they were
divided into two main classes,  -the good and the wicked. The good were called
.Aryas and the wicked Dasyus. Says the Rig Veda, " Do ye know (there are) two
classes of men -Aryas and Dasyus." The good and learned were also called
Devas,
while the ignorant and wicked, such as dacoits, were called Asura.  The Aryas
were again divided into four Classes, viz., Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya and
Shudra.  Those who belonged to the first three Classes being well-educated and
bearing good character, were called Dwijas -the twice-born ; whilst  the
fourth
Class was so named because of being composed of ignorant and illiterate
persons.
They were also called Anaryas -not good. This division into Aryas and
Shudras is
supported by the Atharva Veda wherein it is said "Some are Aryas, others
Shudras." 

O.--How did they happen to come here (to India) then ?
A.-When the relations between the Arahs and Dasyus, or between Devas and
Asuras,
(i.e., between the good and learned, and the ignorant and wicked) developed
into
a constant state of 
[start p. 265]
warfare, and serious troubles arose, the Aryas regarding this country as the
best on the whole earth emigrated here and colonized it.  For this reason
it is
called Aryavarta - the abode of Aryas. 

O.-What are the boundaries of Aryavarta ? 
A.- (Manu II, 22, 17).   "It is bounded on the North by the Himalayas, on the
South by the Vindhyachal mountains, on the East and West by the sea. It has
also, on its West the Sarasvati river (the Sindh or Attock) and on the East
the
Dhrishvati river also called the Brahmaputra which rises from the mountains
east
of Nepal, and passing down to the east of Assam and the west of Burma, falls
into the Bay of Bengal in the Southern Sea (Indian Ocean).  All the countries
included between the Himalaya on the north and the Vindhyachal mountains on
the
south as far as Rameshwar are called Aryavarta, because they were colonized
and
inhabited by Devas (the learned) and Aryas -the good or  noble." 

O.-What was the name of this country before that, and who were its aboriginal
inhabitants ? 
A.-It had no name, nor was it inhabited by any other people before the Aryas
(settled in it) who sometime after Creation came straight down here from Tibet
and colonized this country. 

O.-Some people say that they came from Iran (Persia) and hence they were
called
Aryas.  Before the Aryas came to this country it was inhabited by savages whom
the Aryas called Asuras and Rakshasas as (demons), while they called
themselves
Devatas (gods).  The wars between the two were called by the name Devasura
Sangram as in the historical romances.  Is this true? 
A.-It is absolutely wrong.  The Veda declares what we have Already repeated,
i.e., (Rig Veda 1.51.8) "The virtuous, learned, unselfish, and pious  men are
called Aryas, while the men of opposite character such as dacoits, wicked,
unrighteous and 
[start p. 266]
ignorant persons are called Dasyus."  Besides, (Atharva Veda XIX, 62) "The
Dwijas (the twice-born) -Brahmanas, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas- are called Aryas,
while the Shudras are called Anaryas, or Non-Aryas."  In the face of these
Vedic
authorities how can sensible people believe in the imaginary tales of the
foreigners. 
In the Devasura wars, Prince Arjuna and King Dashratha and others of Aryavarta
used to go to the assistance of the Aryas in order to crush the Asuras.  This
shows that the people living outside Aryavarta were called Dasyus and
Malechhas;
because whenever those people attacked Aryas living on the Himalayas, the
kings
and rulers of Aryavarta went to help the Aryas of the north, etc.  But the war
which Ram Chandra waged in the south against Ravan -the king of Ceylon- is
called not by the name of Devasura war but by that of Rama-Ravana war or
the war
between the Aryas and Rakshasas.  In no Sanskrit book -historical or
otherwise-
it is recorded that the Aryas emigrated here from Iran, fought with and
conquered the aborigines, drove them out, and became the rulers of the
country.  How can then these statements of the foreigners be true?  Besides,
Manu also corroborates our position.  He says, (Manu, X, 45, II, 23) "The
countries other than Aryavaria are called Dasyu and Malechha countries."  The
people living in the north-east, north, north-west and west of Aryavarta were
called Dasyus, Asuras and Malechhas, while those living in the south,
south-east
and south-west were called Rakshasas.  You can still see that the
description of
Rakshasas given therein tallies with the ugly appearance of the negroes of
to-day.  The people living in the antipodes of Aryavarta were called Nagas,
and
their country Patala because of being situated under the feet (of those living
in Aryavarta).  Their kings belonged to the Naga dynasty taking their name
from
that of the founder who was called Naga.  His daughter Ulopi was married to
Prince Arjuna.  From the time of Ikshvaku to that of Kauravas and Pandavas,
the
Aryas were the sovereign rulers of the whole earth, and the Vedas were
preached
and taught more or less even in countries other than Aryavarta.


Light on Truth: or An English Translation of the Satyarth Prakash. Trans.
Chiranjiva Bharadwaja. Delhi: Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, 1975.  The
introduction to this (the second) edition is dated in 1882.



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From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Sat Jun 12 21:07:27 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 23:07:27 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
Message-ID: <161227050373.23782.3758384459670152202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear all,

I have followed with great interest the recent discussion on different
flood stories in the ancient world.  In connection with the
mentioning of Noah in the Bhavisys Purana I got to think of
something.  Some time ago I read one book (which I since lost)
entitled "Om Shalom."  The book was a dialogue between a person
from the Hare Krishna movement and a Jewish rabbi.  Anyway, in
the book there is related a story of how Pythagoras, the Greek
philosopher and mathematician, went to India and met 12 brahmins
who spoke to him in Greek.  Pythagoras got the name
"Yavanacarya," teacher of the Yavanas.  I found this interesting but
have never read anything else about this since.  Does anyone know
about this?  Can anyone give me some references?  Is Pythagoras
mentioned in the Vedas or Puranas?

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From bhebbar at EROLS.COM  Sun Jun 13 03:11:02 1999
From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 23:11:02 -0400
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050393.23782.9253793912778163076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear  Indologists  specializing  in  Indo-Iranian  studies:

In  my  understanding,  the  Vedic  Yama  equals  the  Avestan  Yima.
Please  tell  me  if,  later  on,  this  Yima  becomes  Jamshid  in
Pahlavi  period?

Also,  did  the  Vedic  Aryans  at  any  point  "curse"  Ahura  Mazda
as  the  greatest  Asura  as  the  Avestans  did  the  devas/daevas?

Many  thanks  in  advance  for  all  corrections  and  clarifications.

Regards,
B.N.Hebbar




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sat Jun 12 21:52:35 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 23:52:35 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
Message-ID: <161227050376.23782.5480915330751566870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> I have followed with great interest the recent discussion on different
> flood stories in the ancient world.  In connection with the
> mentioning of Noah in the Bhavisys Purana I got to think of
> something.  Some time ago I read one book (which I since lost)
> entitled "Om Shalom."  The book was a dialogue between a person
> from the Hare Krishna movement and a Jewish rabbi.  Anyway, in
> the book there is related a story of how Pythagoras, the Greek
> philosopher and mathematician, went to India and met 12 brahmins
> who spoke to him in Greek.  Pythagoras got the name
> "Yavanacarya," teacher of the Yavanas.  I found this interesting but
> have never read anything else about this since.  Does anyone know
> about this?  Can anyone give me some references?  Is Pythagoras
> mentioned in the Vedas or Puranas?

Pythagoras is definitely not mentioned in the Vedas, not do I think that
he turns up in the Puranas. What you are referring to is a modern cultural
myth to the effect that P. (and the Greeks) got their mathematics from
India. This is a kind of counter-myth to the traditional European view
that the Indians got their mathematics from the Greeks. It would in fact
seem that Indians and Greeks got at least some of their mathematics from
Babylon, but there are no certain conclusions here.

Best regards,

Lars Martin  Fosse




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sat Jun 12 23:56:53 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 01:56:53 +0200
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050386.23782.13150961199407530686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

B. N. Hebbar wrote:


> I  need  your  informed  opinions,  comments,  observations  etc.  on
> the  following:
> 
> According  to  Prof. N.Subramaniam  (who  has  been  given  the  title
> "Historian  of  the  Tamils"  by  Prof. R. Sathyanathaier)  says  in
> book  "The  History  of  Tamilnad  to  AD  1336": "The  Dravidian
> speech  was  introduced  into  South  India  by  a  group  of  people
> who  migrated  from  the  original  home,  i.e. from  the  Eastern
> Mediterranean  region  to  South  India.  When  exactly  this  occurred
> it  is  difficult  to  say."  (p.22)
> 
> 
> Also,  Dr. David  W. McAlpin  has  written  a  tract  entitled
> "Proto-Elamo-Dravidian:  The  Evidence  and  its  Implications"
> (American  Philosophical  Society,  Philadelphia:1981)  seems  to  imply
> that  the  Dravidians  have  connections  outside  India.
> 
> Since,  the  "Aryan  migration"  theory  was  being  so  hotly
> discussed,  I  am  curious  to  know  if,  in  the  light  of  the
> above,  the  "Dravidian  migration"  theory  had  any  connections  and
> implications  to  the  "Aryan"  one.

The latest theory I have seen concerning this matter is given by Bernard Sergent in his recent book "Gen?se de l'Inde". On the basis of physical anthropological material as well as cultural and linguistic, he claims that the Dravidians migrated from Africa and ended up in India after a stay in the Mediterranean area. The alleged similarities between Dravidians and Uralian languages is supposed to have come about through the mechanisms of area linguistics, indicating that at least some Dravidians and some Uralians lived in the same area for long enough to influence each other's language. Incidentally, Sergent does not believe that the Harappans were Dravidians - that is, except for the population in the south of the IVC area. Again, his reasons are anthropological. (He does not suppose that the IVC culture was monolingual).
The Dravidians are supposed to have reached India before the 8th millennium. BTW: anthropologically they are Mediterranean, and therefore what we might term black whites. The question then becomes: were they white originally only to become black, or is it rather vice versa? According to Sergent, it is the whites who have lost their original black color - I assume due to the bleaching northern climate :-). 

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 13 13:22:19 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 06:22:19 -0700
Subject: Veenadhara Shiva, Not a Dakshinamurti
Message-ID: <161227050414.23782.11976326356423405246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Re: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc.

Earlier, B. Ramakrishnan drew attention to a small footnote
by S. Kramrisch, The presence of 'Siva, p.57:
<<"A very early example of Siva as vINAdhAra daxiNAmUrti can be found
in C. Sivaramamurti, Nataraja in Art, Thought and Literature, 1976, p.
169, fig. 4, a terracota image of the **shuN^ga period, 2nd century
BC**. A much later example, p. 169, fig. 95 on p. 243 from the early
Cola period, illustrates **the image in its consolidated
iconography**" (emphasis mine).>>

While the terracotta image illustrated in C. Sivaramamurti,
Nataraja in art, thought, literature (CN) could be a
Veenadhara Shiva, it is not a Veenadhara Dakshinamurti.

Dakshinamurti icons are found mostly in the Tamil South only
and the remainder in its cultural sphere. In the main text
on the same p. 57, Stella Kramrisch writes,"In South India, the
image of Siva Dakshinamurti is enshrined in a niche on the
South (dakSiNa) wall of the main sanctuary of the temple,
whether 'Saiva or VaiSNava. `Because 'Siva was seated facing
South when he taught the rishis yoga, jnAna he came to be known as
Dakshinamurti' (T. A. Gopinatha Rao, Elements of Hindu iconography,
1968, v.2, pt. I, p.273)". Not only classical sangam texts
(maturaik kAJci and kalittokai), even the canon
of the prime rival sect, - nAlAyira prabandham has two hymns
on Dakshinamurti. Hence, Dakshinamurti images can be
found in Vaishnava Tirupatis also. Naturally, Tevaram has several
instances of Dakshinamurti, Plus Shaivaite agamas written in Tamil
Nadu.

Dakshinamurti is viewed in four different aspects depending
on what he taught to the Rishis, - 1) yoga, 2) jnAna, 3) sAstras
(vyAkhyAna) and 4) music (veenadhara). The first three
- yoga, jnana, vyakhyana - dakshinamurtis are only found in the
South. J. N. Banerjea, Development of Hindu iconography, p. 470
"The Yoga-, JnAna- and VyAkhyAna- Dakshinamurtis of Siva are
mostly South Indian in character and Rao's attempt at explaining
two of the PArzvadevatas in a niche of the DazAvatAra temple
at Deogarh (U.P.) as Jnana and Yoga Dakshinamurtis of Siva have been
proved to be wrong, the figures really standing for Nara and Narayana,
the two AvatAras of viSNu (cf. supra, p. 254, fn 4)".

Let us look at the Figure and what CN has to say on the
Dakshinamurti (??)of the Sunga period, 2nd century BCE. Very
brief and ambiguous.C. Sivaramamurti, Nataraja ..., - p.168
[Mentioning a 'Siva in a copper seal found in Sirkap and of
the Hellenistic period. Following it]
"in the context of a still earlier terracotta figurine of the
zuGga period, representing the musical form Vinadhara Dakshinamurti,
now in the Gopi Krishna Kanoria collection. It is a unique
figure, representing ziva as Dakshinamurti, presiding over
Gandharva veda, which includes music and dance (Fig. 4)."

The title of the Figure 4, so called Veenadhara Dakshinamurti
reads: "Vinadhara Dakshinamurti seated on a bull(Himalaya)
eith GaNas below, carrying harp-shaped vINA in his hand. 'SuGga,
2nd century B.C."

Whether this image is really a Dakshinamurti??
No bull or mountain (Himalayas) is clearly visible
in the small terracotta. Note Sivaramamurti's
hesitation to call it a bull or a hill.

1) Two gaNas are squatting and upholding a slab on which
'Siva (?) is seated with the harp (rudraveena?). The gaNas wear
patra kuNDalas usually worn by women. In other sculptures, these
overfed gaNas enjoy music, blow conches, beat drum, make dance
showing their relation to music and frolicking character.
These overfed imps are subhuman and are usually out of control.
Only the mad guy, 'Siva can handle them. They are not the
attentive students trying to pick up Siva's speechless lessons.
On the contrary to depicted gaNas, Dakshinamurti's disciples are
the old, physically worn out, Rishis (sanaka team of four) overgrown
with beards and are very different than the gaNas in manners.

2) The image appears to be ithyphallic with an Urdhva-liGga.
Then, this zuGga item is a precursor to numerous Veenadharas
found in North India from later periods. The patra kuNDalas
of the gaNas seem to strengthen this likelihood since Veenadhara
images seated or dancing often accompany the 7 mAtrikas.
May be the gaNas' female aspect is highlighted by large
patra kuNDalas (tamil tODu).

The erect linga organ is very common in Veenadharas in the North.
Many later examples exist for Veenadhara. Eg., from CN, a) Veenadhara,
Gupta, 5th century, NAchnA b) Veenadhara in a Matrika group, vAkATaka,
Ellora 3) Veenadhara (with Urdhvalinga), Asanapat, Orissa, 6th
century and so on. Veenadhara accompanied by seven mAtrikas or just
the Devi alone, is common in the North. Look at CN, Fig. 204.
Siva as Veenadhara and Devi with anklets in the hands,
getting ready for dance, Gurjara PratihAra, 9th century A.D.
from LakkamaNDal (p. 323).

3) On the other hand:
Any form of dakshinamurti, veenadhara or otherwise, is
*never* accompanied by a woman. P. R. Srinivasan, Bronzes of
South India dedicates several sections on how to distinguish
between a TripurAndaka and a Veenadhara Dakshinamurti
(Those who work on Southern sculpture  know that
often it is highly difficult to say which is which).
A main criterion is that if a Goddess (Tripurasundari) is
present, then definitely it is not a Veenadara Dakshinamurti.
Hence it is unthinkable to have a Dakshinamurti with an
erect organ. The supreme teacher in the South does not want a woman
nearby dancing.

4) Another problem is if Dakshinamurti is manifest so early
in the North, why no single image of Dakshinamurti is
present there ever since?

Summary: This Sunga terracotta, with no tree (a banyan) and no
rishis, could well be a Veenadhara Shiva, but not a Veenadhara
Dakshinamurti. Much like Ananda tANDava NaTarAja, Lingodhbhava,
Somaskanda and so on, Dakshinamurti imagery is found in the
South only.

Regards,
N. Ganesan



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From bhebbar at EROLS.COM  Sun Jun 13 14:12:40 1999
From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 10:12:40 -0400
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050417.23782.16652087989213119316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear  Toke  Knudsen:

Thanks  for  your  input.  "Asura  MAyA"  is  indeed  an  interesting
rendering  for  "Ahura  Mazda".  But  I  thought  "Zarathusthra"  meant
"camel-tormenter".  "uShTra"  meaning  "camel"  in  Sanskrit  also.  Any
clarification  is  appreciated.

Thanks,
B.N.Hebbar




From bhebbar at EROLS.COM  Sun Jun 13 14:33:06 1999
From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 10:33:06 -0400
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050419.23782.2879924788241876103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear  Dr.Fosse:

Thanks  for  your  prompt  reply.  So,  does  that  mean  there  are  4
theories  now  on  this  whole  issue;

1.  The  Indians  are  ONE  people  and  this  whole  Aryan-Dravidian
thing  is  just  a  farce.  (Hindutva  crowd)

2.  The  Dravidians  were  the  original  people  of  India  and  the
Aryans  came  from  the  outside.  (Max  Muller  et  al)


3.  The  Aryans  were  the  original  people  of  India  and  the
Dravidians  came  from  the  outside.  (know  not  who  espouses  this?)


4.  Both  the  Aryans  and  Dravidians  entered  India  from  the
outside.  (again,  know  not  who  advocates  this?)

Perhaps,  there  are  more  combination  theories.  Since  I  am  not
yet  a  "catuShkoTi  vinirmukta"  I  will  stick  with  these  four.  It
is  confusing  enough.  Which  one  these  theories  or  any  other  has
the  greatest  scholarly  support  and  why?  Kindly  clarify.

Also,  I  am  given  to  understand  that  all  mankind  once  come  out
of  an  "Adi-Fred  Flintstone"  in  Africa,  why  just  the  Dravidians?

Regards,
B.N.Hebbar




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Sun Jun 13 09:49:14 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 11:49:14 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
In-Reply-To: <3762D6A2.34A51CC4@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050400.23782.1868422410154104723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 12 Jun 99, at 23:52, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> Pythagoras is definitely not mentioned in the Vedas, not do I think that
> he turns up in the Puranas. What you are referring to is a modern cultural
> myth to the effect that P. (and the Greeks) got their mathematics from
> India. This is a kind of counter-myth to the traditional European view
> that the Indians got their mathematics from the Greeks. It would in fact
> seem that Indians and Greeks got at least some of their mathematics from
> Babylon, but there are no certain conclusions here.

B.L. van der Waerden relates in his "Science Awakening" some
stories from the ancient world of how Pythagoras is believed to
have visited many places in the Orient.  For example that he
travelled to Egypt where he was made a prisoner by the Persian
king Cambyses and taken to Babylon.  Here he was supposedly
learned the theory of numbers and other sciences from the Magi (I
assume that van der Waerden must be referring to the priests of
ancient Iran).  I do not know much about these stories but I thought
there may be similar stories originating in the ancient world (i.e. not
modern cultural myths) that Pythagoras went to India.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Sun Jun 13 09:49:14 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 11:49:14 +0200
Subject: Jamshid
In-Reply-To: <37632146.3830@erols.com>
Message-ID: <161227050403.23782.4028154928364381466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 12 Jun 99, at 23:11, Balaji Hebbar wrote:

> Also,  did  the  Vedic  Aryans  at  any  point  "curse"  Ahura  Mazda
> as  the  greatest  Asura  as  the  Avestans  did  the  devas/daevas?

I recently read one book by Suhotra Swami entitled "Dimensions of
Good and Evil" (only published on the internet).  In the book there
is a chapter dealing with the connection between the Vedic culture
and Zarathustra.  The idea presented here is that Zarathustra's
teachings represents a deviation from the Vedic faith.  The name
Ahura Mazda is another form of Asura Maya, which is a title of the
Vedic deity Varuna.  Also Zarathustra is identified with Jarutha
mentioned in the Rig Veda.  Furthermore references to the
Bhavisya Purana is given where Zarathustra is named "Maga
Jarasabdha," where the "Maga" supposedly refers to the Magi, the
priestly class of ancient Iran.

I hope this is of some help.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA  Sun Jun 13 18:54:22 1999
From: mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Mandakranta Bose)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 11:54:22 -0700
Subject: Earliest Autobiography
Message-ID: <161227050431.23782.5052833753744017982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

        Can someone on the list tell me when the earliest autobiography
was written in India? Who wrote it? I would appreciate any information
anyone might have.

Mandakranta Bose
Department of Religious Studies/
Director, Programme in Inter-cultural Studies in Asia
Institute of Asian Research
University of British Columbia
Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2
mbose at interchange.ubc.ca




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Jun 13 11:02:52 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 13:02:52 +0200
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
Message-ID: <161227050406.23782.8683044375381055430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you, Luis!

Actually, I am not sure that Dayananda really contradicts himself, he
simply seems to have a more complex hypothesis than I assumed to begin
with. Obviously, if the Aryans are the *first* in Aryavarta, then it
really doesn't matter so much if they originally came from Tibet. It
would seem that D. has made a synthesis of an obsolete European idea and
his own need to make the Aryans the first Indians. What is more strange,
seen from our perspective, is that both Tilak and Savarkar accepted the
outside origin of the Aryans. It was really Golwalkar who settled the
matter. But it is also worth noticing that Ambedkar was an equally
ardent opponent of the invasion theory, stating some quite interesting
reasons for being so.

Best regards,

Lars Martin


Luis Gonzalez-Reimann schrieb:

>  Lars Martin,
>
> Your sources are correct.  I checked The Light of Truth," although the
> page numbers in the edition I have here with me are not the same.  It
> is Dayananda who seems to contradict himself.
>
> See the long quote below, which I copied with a scanner.




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Jun 13 11:35:16 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 13:35:16 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
Message-ID: <161227050408.23782.9773936669149066340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Toke Lindegaard Knudsen wrote:

> On 12 Jun 99, at 23:52, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>
> > Pythagoras is definitely not mentioned in the Vedas, not do I think that
> > he turns up in the Puranas. What you are referring to is a modern cultural
> > myth to the effect that P. (and the Greeks) got their mathematics from
> > India. This is a kind of counter-myth to the traditional European view
> > that the Indians got their mathematics from the Greeks. It would in fact
> > seem that Indians and Greeks got at least some of their mathematics from
> > Babylon, but there are no certain conclusions here.
>
> B.L. van der Waerden relates in his "Science Awakening" some
> stories from the ancient world of how Pythagoras is believed to
> have visited many places in the Orient.  For example that he
> travelled to Egypt where he was made a prisoner by the Persian
> king Cambyses and taken to Babylon.  Here he was supposedly
> learned the theory of numbers and other sciences from the Magi (I
> assume that van der Waerden must be referring to the priests of
> ancient Iran).  I do not know much about these stories but I thought
> there may be similar stories originating in the ancient world (i.e. not
> modern cultural myths) that Pythagoras went to India.
>

I strongly suspect that this is an OLD cultural myth. Egypt had a great
reputation among the Greeks as a place of mysterious learning, and the same
thing applies to Babylon. Remember that Greek mercenaries and merchants were all
over the Middle East. It is assumed that Greek mathematics were influenced by
Babylon, but we cannot, of course, assume for a fact that Pythagoras really went
there. Others may have. The problem is that our historical sources are
unreliable, so that we cannot verify if the tradition about P. is historically
correct.

Carl B. Boyer states in his History of Mathematics that P. travelled both to
Egypt and to Babylon, possibly even to India.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica, however, says the following:

"It is difficult to distinguish Pythagoras' teachings from those of his
disciples. None of his writings has survived, and Pythagoreans invariably
supported their doctrines by indiscriminately citing their master's authority.
Pythagoras, however, is generally credited with the theory of the functional
significance of numbers in the objective world and in music. Other discoveries
often attributed to him (e.g., the incommensurability of the side and diagonal
of a square, and the Pythagorean theorem for right triangles) were probably
developed
only later by the Pythagorean school. More probably the bulk of the intellectual
tradition originating with Pythagoras himself belongs to mystical wisdom rather
than to scientific scholarship."

It should therefore be clear that true historical details about P. and his ideas
are difficult to identify. As I already have suggested, that also applies to his
assumed travels.

In general I think that when dealing with ancient traditions that are not backed
up by good historical documentation, it is always safer to assume that the
tradition is legendary than to assume it to be historical.

Lars Martin




From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Sun Jun 13 13:15:49 1999
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 14:15:49 +0100
Subject: CSX+ fonts & cross-platform email exchange
In-Reply-To: <l03130303b387bf7bd0df@[194.109.138.38]>
Message-ID: <161227050411.23782.16761884872460244371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 12 Jun 1999, Jaap Pranger wrote:

> ...

> Can you easily exchange Tex documents with Windows and MacOS
> users?  I guess you can, but please tell.

Yes, you can.

> BTW, John, last year in Conv-Dev you mentioned ACII.  You said: "ACII
> is the name used for the full 8-bit character set comprising 7-bit ASCII
> in the lower half and 7-bit ISCII in the upper half."
> Is this charset in use anywhere? I can't imagine reasonable Nagari
> coming out from a 7-bit subset.

It is used in all of CDAC's products (ALP for DOS, iLeap for Windows, and
others). The output Nagari (/Bengali/Gujarati/Tamil/etc.) is extremely
good. This is because, like Unicode, an intermediate piece of software (a
"renderer") handles conversion from logical character to actual glyph.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE  Sun Jun 13 15:28:42 1999
From: fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 16:28:42 +0100
Subject: Sri Aurobindo
In-Reply-To: <199906130345.UAA05092@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227050423.23782.6980296351127006182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The word Dayaananda has used is trivi.s.tapa. It means both 'heaven' and
'Tibet,' the latter being thought of as the location of heaven in
reconstructions that equate Meru with the Himalayas or certain parts of the
Himalayas. For Dayaananda, it might have meant the same thing whether one
said 'man was created in heaven' or 'man was created in Tibet.' In this
particular case, the difference of the mythological or religious from the
geographical might not have existed for him. -- ashok aklujkar




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Sun Jun 13 12:54:23 1999
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 16:54:23 +0400
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050438.23782.7777235852389550177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Hebbar,
        besides IA and Dravidian languages there are in the South Asia:
1. Dardic languages,
2.Iranian languages (Baluchi, Pashtu etc.)
3. Austro-Asiatic languages (Munda l-s, Nahali, Khasi, Nicobarese).
4. Tibeto-Burman languages
5. Burushaski
6. Andaman languages

        For the details see e.g.: G.A.Zograph. Languages of South Asia.
A guide. Tr. by G.L.Campbell. Routledge & Kegan Paul. London, 1982
(Languages of Asia and Africa. Vol.3). 231 pp.
        All the best,
                                        Yaroslav Vassilkov




From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Jun 14 00:06:46 1999
From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 17:06:46 -0700
Subject: Ekacakra, where?
Message-ID: <161227050446.23782.6172692431774497849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Deal list members,
A colleague currently on the road writes to me with the following query.
The best I can do for him, it appears, is for me to pass the questions on
to you. Could some of you help me out? Thanks.

>I am trying to find information about the possible location of the
>Mahabharata town of Ekacakraa where the Pandavas first settled after
>escaping the burning house of lac. In West Bengal, there is a village named
>Ekacakraa which claims to be that town. An eighteenth century Gaudiya
>Vaishnava work, the Bhakti-ratnaakara, also affirms this claim for the
>village. I would appreciate any help with the following:
>Are there any
>competing claims for the location of this town, either by scholars or
>traditional Hindus? Are there any scholarly articles, or references in
>books, which deal with this?
>Thank you very much.
>

Beatrice Reusch
University of California, Berkeley




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 00:57:18 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 17:57:18 -0700
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
Message-ID: <161227050449.23782.5471958507963666825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Drs. Reimann and Dr. Fosse,

To the post beclow, I might add here that a more extensive exposition of
Swami Dayanada's theory of Trivishtapa being the origin of Homo Sapiens is
found in his series of 15 lectures called 'Poona Pravacana.' These were
delivered by the Swami during his trip to Poona. The lectures were extempore
and were translated and published in Marathi subsequently. Hindi
translations of these lectures are available easily. Eg.

1. Poona Pravacana Ed. by Pt. Rajvira Sastri; Arsha Sahitya Pracar Trust;
Khari Baoli; Delhi-110006

Later Arya Samajist scholars have systematized this idea considerably in
works like
1. Vedavidyanidarsana
2. The Story of Creation
(Both by Pt. Bhagvad Datta)

I also strongly recommend
3. Mahabharata ki Samalocana by Pt. Damodara Satavalekar
wherein the author has done a commendable task of identifying Trivistapa
with Tibet on the basis of data in the Mahabharata.

I summary then, Swami Dayanand rejected the AIT theory as he considered
Aryavarta uninhabited before humans from Tibet inhabited it.

Really speaking, Swami Dayanand has not contradicted himself. This is
because, according to him Humans were created 1.9 billion years ago (see
Chapter 7 of Satyartha Prakasa and also the relevant portions of
Rgvedadibhasyabhumika). Therefore, if he felt that humans moved into India
even, say a billion years ago, he had correctly used the words "from times
immemorial).

Nevertheless, Swami Dayanand did contradict himself sometimes. For instance,
In Satyartha Prakasa Chap 11, he declares at the beginning that till the
Mahabharata War (reckoned to have been waged in the 32nd Cent. B.C.E.), the
Vaidik Dharma reigned supreme all over the world. Yet, a few pages later he
writes that the Native Americans were barbarians for aeons till the
Europeans civilized them. This contradiction is acknwowledged even by the
late great Pt. Yudhisthhir Mimamsaka (vide a footnote in his annotated
edition of the Satyartha Prakasa).

Regarding Tilak, he was challanged to a debate by Syamji Krishna Varma and
other Indian Pundits. But, Tilak shied away by stating that his theory was
based solely on the English translations of the Rgveda by Wilson, Griffith
et al. The text of this letter has been reproduced in numerous Arya Samaj
publications in Vernacular languages. (Hindi, Marathi).

Savarkar accepted the notions probably  because of the conjectures advanced
in the article:

http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/articles/zydenbos.html

Nevertheless, I look forward to reading Mr. Fosse's article and would be
obliged if he sends me the reference when the same is published.

Regards

Vishal


----Original Message Follows----
From: Luis Gonzalez-Reimann <reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:48:26 -0700

Lars Martin,

Your sources are correct.  I checked The Light of Truth," although the page
numbers in the edition I have here with me are not the same.  It is
Dayananda
who seems to contradict himself.

See the long quote below, which I copied with a scanner.

Luis


Dayananda Saraswati on the origin of the Aryas
(From The Light of Truth)
Most of the book is written in a question and answer format.  According to a
footnote by the translator (p. 2, n. 3), the ?O? stands for ?Imaginary
Objector,? and the ?A? for ?Author.?

[p. 264]

O.- Where was man first created.
A.- In Trivishtap otherwise called Tibet.

O.-Were all men of one class or divided into different classes at the time
of
Creation?
A.-They all belonged to one class, viz., that of man, but later on they were
divided into two main classes,  -the good and the wicked. The good were
called
..Aryas and the wicked Dasyus. Says the Rig Veda, " Do ye know (there are)
two
classes of men -Aryas and Dasyus." The good and learned were also called
Devas,
while the ignorant and wicked, such as dacoits, were called Asura.  The
Aryas
were again divided into four Classes, viz., Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya and
Shudra.  Those who belonged to the first three Classes being well-educated
and
bearing good character, were called Dwijas -the twice-born ; whilst  the
fourth
Class was so named because of being composed of ignorant and illiterate
persons.
They were also called Anaryas -not good. This division into Aryas and
Shudras is
supported by the Atharva Veda wherein it is said "Some are Aryas, others
Shudras."

O.--How did they happen to come here (to India) then ?
A.-When the relations between the Arahs and Dasyus, or between Devas and
Asuras,
(i.e., between the good and learned, and the ignorant and wicked) developed
into
a constant state of
[start p. 265]
warfare, and serious troubles arose, the Aryas regarding this country as the
best on the whole earth emigrated here and colonized it.  For this reason
it is
called Aryavarta - the abode of Aryas.

O.-What are the boundaries of Aryavarta ?
A.- (Manu II, 22, 17).   "It is bounded on the North by the Himalayas, on
the
South by the Vindhyachal mountains, on the East and West by the sea. It has
also, on its West the Sarasvati river (the Sindh or Attock) and on the East
the
Dhrishvati river also called the Brahmaputra which rises from the mountains
east
of Nepal, and passing down to the east of Assam and the west of Burma, falls
into the Bay of Bengal in the Southern Sea (Indian Ocean).  All the
countries
included between the Himalaya on the north and the Vindhyachal mountains on
the
south as far as Rameshwar are called Aryavarta, because they were colonized
and
inhabited by Devas (the learned) and Aryas -the good or  noble."

O.-What was the name of this country before that, and who were its
aboriginal
inhabitants ?
A.-It had no name, nor was it inhabited by any other people before the Aryas
(settled in it) who sometime after Creation came straight down here from
Tibet
and colonized this country.

O.-Some people say that they came from Iran (Persia) and hence they were
called
Aryas.  Before the Aryas came to this country it was inhabited by savages
whom
the Aryas called Asuras and Rakshasas as (demons), while they called
themselves
Devatas (gods).  The wars between the two were called by the name Devasura
Sangram as in the historical romances.  Is this true?
A.-It is absolutely wrong.  The Veda declares what we have Already repeated,
i.e., (Rig Veda 1.51.8) "The virtuous, learned, unselfish, and pious  men
are
called Aryas, while the men of opposite character such as dacoits, wicked,
unrighteous and
[start p. 266]
ignorant persons are called Dasyus."  Besides, (Atharva Veda XIX, 62) "The
Dwijas (the twice-born) -Brahmanas, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas- are called Aryas,
while the Shudras are called Anaryas, or Non-Aryas."  In the face of these
Vedic
authorities how can sensible people believe in the imaginary tales of the
foreigners.
In the Devasura wars, Prince Arjuna and King Dashratha and others of
Aryavarta
used to go to the assistance of the Aryas in order to crush the Asuras.
This
shows that the people living outside Aryavarta were called Dasyus and
Malechhas;
because whenever those people attacked Aryas living on the Himalayas, the
kings
and rulers of Aryavarta went to help the Aryas of the north, etc.  But the
war
which Ram Chandra waged in the south against Ravan -the king of Ceylon- is
called not by the name of Devasura war but by that of Rama-Ravana war or
the war
between the Aryas and Rakshasas.  In no Sanskrit book -historical or
otherwise-
it is recorded that the Aryas emigrated here from Iran, fought with and
conquered the aborigines, drove them out, and became the rulers of the
country.  How can then these statements of the foreigners be true?  Besides,
Manu also corroborates our position.  He says, (Manu, X, 45, II, 23) "The
countries other than Aryavaria are called Dasyu and Malechha countries."
The
people living in the north-east, north, north-west and west of Aryavarta
were
called Dasyus, Asuras and Malechhas, while those living in the south,
south-east
and south-west were called Rakshasas.  You can still see that the
description of
Rakshasas given therein tallies with the ugly appearance of the negroes of
to-day.  The people living in the antipodes of Aryavarta were called Nagas,
and
their country Patala because of being situated under the feet (of those
living
in Aryavarta).  Their kings belonged to the Naga dynasty taking their name
from
that of the founder who was called Naga.  His daughter Ulopi was married to
Prince Arjuna.  From the time of Ikshvaku to that of Kauravas and Pandavas,
the
Aryas were the sovereign rulers of the whole earth, and the Vedas were
preached
and taught more or less even in countries other than Aryavarta.


Light on Truth: or An English Translation of the Satyarth Prakash. Trans.
Chiranjiva Bharadwaja. Delhi: Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, 1975.  The
introduction to this (the second) edition is dated in 1882.



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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 01:03:26 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 18:03:26 -0700
Subject: Sri Aurobindo
Message-ID: <161227050452.23782.402254950118898587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Respected Dr. Aklujkar,

You are correct in stating that Trivistapa is used as a synonymn of Swarga
in Indian texts. However, I refer you to

Mahabharata ki Samalocana; Pt. Damodara Satavalekara; Swadhyaya Mandala;
Valsad (Gujarat)

wherein the author explains the word as --"A place which can be reached by 3
paths."

The author has used the data given in the Mahabharata and knowledge of
current routes from India to Tibet to drive home his point that in Ancient
times, there were really 3 routes adopted by Indians to visit places in
Tibet.

It must be noted here that while Swami Dayananda rejected the Puranas as a
source of history, he accepted the Ramayan and the Mahabharata (while
admitting the presence of massive interpolations in them).

So it is possible that Swamiji got his idea from Mahabharata as well.

Best regards,

Vishal

----Original Message Follows----
From: Ashok Aklujkar <fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE>
Subject: Sri Aurobindo
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:28:42 +0100

The word Dayaananda has used is trivi.s.tapa. It means both 'heaven' and
'Tibet,' the latter being thought of as the location of heaven in
reconstructions that equate Meru with the Himalayas or certain parts of the
Himalayas. For Dayaananda, it might have meant the same thing whether one
said 'man was created in heaven' or 'man was created in Tibet.' In this
particular case, the difference of the mythological or religious from the
geographical might not have existed for him. -- ashok aklujkar


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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 01:16:37 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 18:16:37 -0700
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?-A simpler explanalation
Message-ID: <161227050455.23782.15598656324875831184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Respected Dr. Knudsen,

I advance a simpler explanation:

The Pythagoras theorem has been stated in the Baudhayana Sulba Sutras. Now
many Hindus (like Sayanacarya) include even the Kalpasutras in the cateogory
of Vedas, and the Hare Krishnas include even the Puranas etc. in 'Vedic
Literature.'

The fact that the theorem attributed to Pythagoras is stated in the
Baudhayana Sulba as well is publicized in 100's of Mathematics texts
prescribed for children in Indian schools (as also the fact that the
'Pascal's Triangle' occurs in Pinagalacarya's Chhanda sutras and so on).
Since one of the persons involved in the discussion is a Hare Krishna, we
might surmise that he got his facts slightly mixed up.

Regards,

Vishal


----Original Message Follows----
From: Toke Lindegaard Knudsen <tlk at MATH.KU.DK>
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 23:07:27 +0200

Dear all,

I have followed with great interest the recent discussion on different
flood stories in the ancient world.  In connection with the
mentioning of Noah in the Bhavisys Purana I got to think of
something.  Some time ago I read one book (which I since lost)
entitled "Om Shalom."  The book was a dialogue between a person
from the Hare Krishna movement and a Jewish rabbi.  Anyway, in
the book there is related a story of how Pythagoras, the Greek
philosopher and mathematician, went to India and met 12 brahmins
who spoke to him in Greek.  Pythagoras got the name
"Yavanacarya," teacher of the Yavanas.  I found this interesting but
have never read anything else about this since.  Does anyone know
about this?  Can anyone give me some references?  Is Pythagoras
mentioned in the Vedas or Puranas?

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen



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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 01:24:37 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 18:24:37 -0700
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050457.23782.2540108000498198571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 30 oct 98, Prof. Y. Vassilkov wrote on zaratuStra here.

zara-tuStra - "one whose camels are old" parallel to
the Mitanni Aryan name, vRddhAzva "one whose horses are old".
He adds:
"all these names aiming at turning off, repelling
evil spirits by way of showing them the insignificance and
poverty of the man bearing the name (old horses/or camels,
bad chariot, no money, nothing interesting at all here, go
away!)."




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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 01:28:54 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 18:28:54 -0700
Subject: bRhadAranyaka
Message-ID: <161227050459.23782.10872892372117722373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Scarbrough,

There does not exist yet any electronic index for word search in the BU.
However, please refer either of the following 2 printed word indices:
1. Vaidika Padanukrama Kosa; Compiled by Pt. Visvabandhu Sastri et al;
Visvesvarananda Vedic Research Institute; Hosiarpur; India--Volumes 9 and 10
deal with the Upanisads (first 6 are on the Samhitas, 7-8 on Brahmanas and
volumes after 10 deal with Vedangas etc.)
2. Eighteen Principal Upanisads; Ed. by Vadekar and Limaye; Vaidika
Samsodhana Mandala; Poona (Not sure of the Publisher. This book has a good
word Index as an Appendix).

The relevant volumes of #1 are also published separately as "Upanisadic
Citations." (Search under 'Visvabandhu' or' Bhimsena Sarma' when doing an
author search)

Any good library on Indology should have all these works.

Vishal

____________________________


Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 04:57:47 -0400
From:         David Scarbrough <scarbro at CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject:      bRhadAranyaka
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



Has anyone come across the bRhadAranyaka upanishhat in electronic form
for doing a word search?
Thanks in advance.
David.


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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 01:37:34 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 18:37:34 -0700
Subject: word-initial changes (v -> p)
Message-ID: <161227050461.23782.3459461075243966267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does Kannada or other Indian languages change Sanskrit
words starting with "v" into a "p" or "h"?
Any examples please. What about word-initial "b",
do they ever change to "h"?

Thanks a bunch,
N. Ganesan


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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 01:58:15 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 18:58:15 -0700
Subject: Earliest Autobiography
Message-ID: <161227050468.23782.15553086322912695448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There are many older Indian Biographies like the Babarnama, Jehangirnama and
so on. Semi-autobiographical accounts have been included in their works by
many ancient Indian authors like
1. Dandin in his 'Avantisundarikatha'

The 'Bichittar Nataka' of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji, composed in the last
quarter of the 17th Cent. is an autobiography extending over his previous
lives as well (supposedly recalled by Guruji while meditating on the
Siwaliks).


----Original Message Follows----
From: lucinda bell <belllu at OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Earliest Autobiography
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:38:56 +0300

For a 17th century autobiography in Brajbhasha (completed AD 1641) see
Banarsidas's Ardhakathanaka translated into English (with original text)
by Mukund Lath as Half A Tale (Rajasthan Prakrit Bharati Sansthan,
Jaipur:1981).

Richard Barz
ANU
Canberra

Mandakranta Bose wrote:
 >
 >         Can someone on the list tell me when the earliest autobiography
 > was written in India? Who wrote it? I would appreciate any information
 > anyone might have.
 >
 > Mandakranta Bose
 > Department of Religious Studies/
 > Director, Programme in Inter-cultural Studies in Asia
 > Institute of Asian Research
 > University of British Columbia
 > Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2
 > mbose at interchange.ubc.ca


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From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Jun 13 17:11:28 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 19:11:28 +0200
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050429.23782.15247171276604122736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> 1.  The  Indians  are  ONE  people  and  this  whole  Aryan-Dravidian
> thing  is  just  a  farce.  (Hindutva  crowd)
> 
> 2.  The  Dravidians  were  the  original  people  of  India  and  the
> Aryans  came  from  the  outside.  (Max  Muller  et  al)
> 
> 
> 3.  The  Aryans  were  the  original  people  of  India  and  the
> Dravidians  came  from  the  outside.  (know  not  who  espouses  this?)
> 
> 
> 4.  Both  the  Aryans  and  Dravidians  entered  India  from  the
> outside.  (again,  know  not  who  advocates  this?)
> 
> Also,  I  am  given  to  understand  that  all  mankind  once  come  out
> of  an  "Adi-Fred  Flintstone"  in  Africa,  why  just  the  Dravidians?

I am venturing into territory here where I don't strictly belong, but from what I believe I have heard, there are two versions of the out-of-Africa theory: One assumes that we are all descended from an early homo sapiens. The second assumes that some humans developed from an earlier form of homo (erectus or something), so that we don't all have homo sapiens as ancestor. But I immediately profess a complete lack of professionality in these matters and ask for clarification. 

As for India, it goes without saying that no matter whether who we descend from everybody comes from Africa in the final analysis. The Dravidians, by the way, were not the first to arrive in India. There were other populations in India before the Dravidians. These have more or less been absorbed by the present populations.  This is about as far as my knowledge goes, so others: please step in.

Lars Martin Fosse




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 02:12:23 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 19:12:23 -0700
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
Message-ID: <161227050471.23782.4320977134367122191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:

>The Encyclopaedia Britannica, however, says the following:
>
>"It is difficult to distinguish Pythagoras' teachings from those of his
>disciples. None of his writings has survived, and Pythagoreans invariably
>supported their doctrines by indiscriminately citing their master's
>authority.

The oldest European reference to a connection between Pythagoreanism and
India is possibly the "Life of Apollonius" written by Philostratus
Flavius(ca. 3rd cent CE). Apollonius of Tyana, the Neo-Pythagorean, who was
considered an incarnation of Pythagoras, is said to have visited India.

For a modern Indian myth based upon this, see T. M. P. Mahadevan's remarks
in his introduction to "Gaudapada: A Study in Early Vedanta" published by
the Madras University (4th ed., 1975).

Vidyasankar


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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 02:43:36 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 19:43:36 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050474.23782.3281971607733376291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Robert Zydenbos <zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE> wrote:

>Seeing that some of the list members have been reading Aurobindo,
>someone may help me with a reference. I was told that has written
>somewhere that the prominence that is given to Advaitavedanta is not
>the result of a natural development in Indian philosophy, but due to
>the interest given in that school of thought by Western authors.

Don't you think that this statement is more representative of the typical
19th century Bangla Babu than of the traditional pundits who were interested
in Indian philosophies?

Vidyasankar


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From kekai at JPS.NET  Mon Jun 14 03:55:46 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 20:55:46 -0700
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050426.23782.5531221052648198460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Balaji Hebbar wrote:
>

> 4.  Both  the  Aryans  and  Dravidians  entered  India  from  the
> outside.  (again,  know  not  who  advocates  this?)
>
>

Well, as you say most people tend to believe in the Adi-Fred Flintstone
Out of Africa theory.  I guess the question then comes where did the
Dravidian language or the Dravidian physical type develop.

Unless you accept McAlpin's theory there are no Dravidian languages
remotely near the Mediterranean.  Even Elamite would represent something
on the fringe of Dravidian distribution and would violate the principles
of least moves and greatest diversity (if you're looking at Elam as the
place of origin).

If you just look at existing Dravidian languages and Dravidian
substrata, then we would have to estimate the place of origin somewhere
in South Asia.

>?From the biological standpoint, the oldest modern "Australoid" type that
I'm aware of comes from Niah Cave in Indonesia dating to about 25 to 30
thousand bp. There's no doubt, in my mind at least, that Dravidians are
strongly Australoid in character as were most of the oldest remains from
India (including Harappa).

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Sun Jun 13 19:01:50 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 21:01:50 +0200
Subject: Jamshid
In-Reply-To: <3763BC58.6A@erols.com>
Message-ID: <161227050434.23782.17551020757743055129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Thanks  for  your  input.  "Asura  MAyA"  is  indeed  an  interesting
> rendering  for  "Ahura  Mazda".  But  I  thought  "Zarathusthra"  meant
> "camel-tormenter".  "uShTra"  meaning  "camel"  in  Sanskrit  also.  Any
> clarification  is  appreciated.

Yes, I also recall that Zarathustra means something connected
with camels.  I must admit though that I do not know much about
the name Zarathustra.  The source I refered to earlier equated
Zarathustra with Jarutha mentioned in the Rig Veda and with
Jarasabdha mentioned in the Bhavisya Purana.  I do not know what
Jarutha or Jarasabdha means (jara means old age, atleast in the
Bhagavad Gita), or what relation that might have to the meaning of
Zarathustra in Persian.  Maybe someone could help us here?

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From cssetzer at MUM.EDU  Mon Jun 14 03:09:01 1999
From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 22:09:01 -0500
Subject: bRhadAranyaka
Message-ID: <161227050479.23782.15826858254375021261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear David,

I have the following available on CD, both in Devanagari and in 8-bit
Transliteration. The license fee is $100 for single user including some very
nice true type fonts. If you get a more extensive set of fonts you also get
first 80 chapters of Caraka both for total of $5 extra. There is $5 charge
for shipping and handling. These were all typed in independently of other
texts you may have seen on the web. They are directly as printed, with no
"editing."

sincerely,

Claude Setzer  cssetzer at mum.edu

(About 28MB total when in Microsoft Word format)
Rig Veda  (1.54 MB)
Yajur Veda Mantra SaMhitaa  (0.0945MB)
Ashtangha Hridayama  (0.942MB)
Bhava Prakasha  (1.39MB)
Galita Prakasha  (0.161MB)
Darshanas: (combined size = 0.523 MB including references)
     (These are not complete at this point, and not available in all fonts.)
Nyaya  (0.089MB)
      Vaisheshika (0.097MB)
      Sankhya  (0.064MB)
      Yoga   (0.015MB)
      Karma Mimansa   (0.223MB)
      Vedanta (.035MB)
Madhava Nidanam  (0.191KB)
Ramayana     (5.367MB)
Mahabharata  (8.856MB)
Narada Purana  (2.03MB)
Padma Purana  (5.25MB)
Sharngdhara Samhita  (0.447MB)
Sushruta Samhita (0.986MB) [small section at the end is missing]
Upanishads:  (0.3MB)
Isavasyopanishat
Kenopanishat
Kathopanishat
Prashnopanishat
Mundakopanishat
Mandukyopanishat
Taittiriyopanishat
Aitareyopanishat (Ityaitareyopanishat)
Chandogyopanishat (Chandoyopanishat)
Brihadaranyakopanishat
Shvetashvataropanishat

----- Original Message -----
From: David Scarbrough <scarbro at CROSSLINK.NET>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 3:57 AM
Subject: bRhadAranyaka


> Has anyone come across the bRhadAranyaka upanishhat in electronic form
> for doing a word search?
> Thanks in advance.
> David.
>




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Sun Jun 13 20:11:09 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 22:11:09 +0200
Subject: Jamshid
In-Reply-To: <3763BC58.6A@erols.com>
Message-ID: <161227050440.23782.6931958732970678498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Thanks  for  your  input.  "Asura  MAyA"  is  indeed  an  interesting
> rendering  for  "Ahura  Mazda".  But  I  thought  "Zarathusthra"  meant
> "camel-tormenter".  "uShTra"  meaning  "camel"  in  Sanskrit  also.  Any
> clarification  is  appreciated.

I found something on the name Zarathustra.  David Frawley in his
book "Gods, Sages and Kings" writes (on page 223):

"The name of Zoroaster, the founder of the ancient Persian religion,
is traceable to Sanskrit Hari-dyut-astra, the beautiful light of the
star."

Any comments on this?

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Jun 14 05:52:05 1999
From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 22:52:05 -0700
Subject: word-initial changes (v -> p)
In-Reply-To: <19990614013734.9078.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050481.23782.8812190563457772622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Not really v > p, but rather
p > h/#_V in Old KannaDa, cf. Proto-Drav. *pAl > Ka. pAl ~ hAl [DEDR 4096]
w > b/#_V, cf. Skt. vanaSankarI > Ka. banaSankarI
               PD *wil-ay > Ka. bil [DEDR 5421]






chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu

"oh boy, sleep! thats where i'm a viking."

On Sun, 13 Jun 1999, N.Ganesan wrote:

> Does Kannada or other Indian languages change Sanskrit
> words starting with "v" into a "p" or "h"?
> Any examples please. What about word-initial "b",
> do they ever change to "h"?
>
> Thanks a bunch,
> N. Ganesan
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Jun 13 21:40:30 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 23:40:30 +0200
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050443.23782.4929517095388523759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> I found something on the name Zarathustra.  David Frawley in his
> book "Gods, Sages and Kings" writes (on page 223):
> 
> "The name of Zoroaster, the founder of the ancient Persian religion,
> is traceable to Sanskrit Hari-dyut-astra, the beautiful light of the
> star."
> 
> Any comments on this?

Yes. Frawley is not a reliable source, and his etymology of Zarathushtra is nonsense. The last part of the word is ushtra, which means camel. Unfortunately, I haven't got access to my "Iranian" books, and I don't remember what the first part of the word means, except that it is probably a verb. 

Let someone else come to the rescue here.

Lars Martin Fosse




From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Jun 14 07:09:06 1999
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 00:09:06 -0700
Subject: Jamshid
In-Reply-To: <19990614012437.12364.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050484.23782.4448298088318043924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 06:24 PM 6/13/99 -0700, Ganesan wrote:


>On 30 oct 98, Prof. Y. Vassilkov wrote on zaratuStra here.
>
>zara-tuStra - "one whose camels are old" parallel to
>the Mitanni Aryan name, vRddhAzva "one whose horses are old".

The Sanskrit equivalent is jarad uSTra:

jarat = old
uSTra = camel

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 12:30:02 1999
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 05:30:02 -0700
Subject: Original Dravidian homeland
Message-ID: <161227050514.23782.592986865492166063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 >4.  Both  the  Aryans  and  Dravidians  entered  India  from  the
 >outside.  (again,  know  not  who  advocates  this?)

  But then, there is lot of difference between Dravidians
in Indus valley by 5000 B.C. and Aryans there around 1200 B.C.
In Historical studies, even a few centuries makes a lot of
difference. Just today,  Dr. Fosse missed/mixed the Alexander's
date of 3rd cent. B.C. with 3rd cent. A.D., Of course, someone
pointed this out.

Regards,
V. Iyer






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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 16:33:46 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 09:33:46 -0700
Subject: Language change to IA
Message-ID: <161227050542.23782.9809854351039406651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Prof. Hock,

Greetings.

Read the following on the process of language change to IE.
Written by an Archaeologist. Is the process same when
I-Ir. entered India from the West and spread in pre-Aryan/non-Aryan
India? As I understand, when elites with sufficient clout impose
a language, people shift to altogether different languages
from their own. Can this happen in an accelerated phase,
in a preliterate society, ie., before Writing is introduced?

Learnt in Indology that there are basic differences between
what we know of IE society, about Aryans in the Veda etc.,
and what is known about IVC. Works of I. Mahadevan and A. Parpola
say that IVC is likely to be Dravidian.

What are the current thoughts on this language change?
Ie., Pre-Aryan IVC shifting to Indo-Aryan tongues?
We are interested in hearing from you. Thanks for references.

With kind regards,
N. Ganesan

   ----------------------------------------------------------------
  Antiquity, Sept 1995 v69 n264 p554(12)
  Horse, wagon & chariot: Indo-European
  languages and archaeology. David W. Anthony.

   The dynamics of Indo-European expansion

   The expansion of the Indo-European languages must have
   involved many episodes of language shift over a long
   period of time. There is no single explanation for
   these many episodes; they occurred in different
   places, at different times, for many different
   reasons. Even the initial expansion seems to have been
   facilitated by different processes to the east and to
   the west of the PIE core area.

   Language shift has been modelled by archaeologists in
   two ways: demographic expansion and elite dominance.
   In the first, a group with a more intensive economy
   and a denser population replaces or absorbs a group
   with a less intensive economy, and language shift
   occurs as an epiphenomenon of a wave-like demographic
   expansion (Renfrew 1994; Bellwood 1989). In the
   second, a powerful elite imposes its language on a
   client or subject population. While both processes can
   be important, language shift is more complex than
   these models imply. Language shift can be understood
   best as a social strategy through which individuals
   and groups compete for positions of prestige, power,
   and domestic security (Anthony in press). What is
   important, then, is not just dominance, but vertical
   social mobility and a linkage between language and
   access to positions of prestige and power (Mallory 1992).
   The expansion of the Indo-European languages eastward
   into the steppes was linked to innovations in
   transport. The resultant development of deep-steppe
   pastoralism combined with river-valley agriculture
   made it possible for a substantial population
   predictably and productively to exploit the grasslands
   that occupy the center of the Eurasian landmass. The
   conquest of the grasslands permanently changed the
   dynamics of historical development across the Eurasian
   continent by establishing a bridge, however tenuous,
   between the previously isolated societies of China,
   Iran, the Near East and Europe. In a sense, the
   eastward expansion of the pastoral-agricultural
   economy might be analogous to the 'demographic wave'
   that Renfrew and others have applied to the
   Indo-European expansion in Europe. However, the
   cultural-archaeological context shows that the steppes
   were already populated; the process by which this
   resident population became IE-speakers was cultural,
   not just demographic.

   A relatively small immigrant elite population can
   encourage widespread language shift among numerically
   dominant indigenes in a non-state or pre-state context
   if the elite employs a specific combination of
   encouragements and punishments. Ethnohistorical cases
   in Africa (Kopytoff 1987; Atkinson 1989) and the
   Philippines (Bentley 1981) demonstrate that small
   elite groups have successfully imposed their languages
   in non-state situations where they:

   * imported a powerful and attractive new religion or
   ideology (as the Sintashta-Petrovka culture seems to
   have done);

   * controlled sufficient wealth to offer gifts and
   loans on a lavish scale (documented in the
   metallurgical wealth of Sintashta-Petrovka);

   * controlled sufficient military muscle to punish
   those who resisted (chariotry might have increased the
   power of the Sintashta-Petrovka people);

   * occupied strategic positions on critical trade
   routes (Sintashta controls access to the Orenburg
   gateway between Europe and the steppes);

   * and actively pursued marriages and alliances with
   the more powerful members of indigenous groups,
   offering them enhanced prestige and vertical social
   mobility in the new order.

   Simply defeating and dominating the indigenes is
   insufficient, as the Norman conquest of England and
   the Celtic conquest of Galatia demonstrate. Language
   shift occurs when it confers strategic advantages on
   those who learn the new language. An elite must be not
   just dominant, but open to assimilation and alliance,
   and its language must be a key to integration within
   an attractive socio-political system, as it was for
   the Roman state at one end of the political spectrum
   and for Baluchi nomads (Barth 1981) at the other.
   The diffusion of the IE languages eastward into the
   steppes should be understood as a social process, not
   as an epiphenomenon of a demographic shift. The
   diffusion westward into Europe was fundamentally
   different in ecological, cultural and economic terms.
   It also probably began much earlier. Intrusive kurgan
   cemeteries in the lower Danube valley (Panaiotov 1989)
   and eastern Hungary (Ecsedy 1979; Sherratt 1983)
   probably testify to a sustained Yamna incursion at
   about 2900-2700 BC (Anthony 1990). Yet the small-group
   social dynamics responsible for language shift might
   have been very similar in Europe and the steppes. In a
   European context in which wagons and animal traction
   were becoming increasingly important in the domestic
   economy (Bogucki 1993), the pastorally-oriented
   societies of the western steppes might have been seen
   not as culturally backward 'Huns', but rather as
   enviably rich and worthy of emulation. Wheeled
   vehicles may have significantly altered the
   organization of agricultural labour in eastern Europe,
   since one person with a wagon and oxen could transport
   crops from field to farm that would earlier have
   required the co-operative labour of a group (Bankoff &
   Greenfield 1984: 17; Bogucki 1993). Wagons made
   systematic manuring possible, opening areas with less
   productive soils to agricultural exploitation. Wagons
   required draft oxen, enhancing the overall importance
   of cattle-raising, while horseback riding made cattle
   stealing easier, encouraging inter-community raiding
   and warfare. Wagons may have encouraged the evolution
   of increasingly dispersed and individualizing social
   communities (as automobiles have done in this
   century). Shifts in values may have been encouraged by
   changes in eastern European community organization and
   economy that were themselves caused partially by the
   adoption of wheeled vehicles and horseback riding. All
   of these changes might have set the stage for the
   adoption of new languages just at the time that the
   Yamna incursion into the grassy plains of the lower
   Danube valley and eastern Hungary began.

   At the root of both expansions lie the speakers of
   PIE, whose kinship systems, religious concepts, and
   social organization can be understood through their
   own reconstructed vocabulary - an unprecedented
   opportunity for anthropological archaeologists, if we
   can agree on how it should be exploited.
--------------------------------------------------------------------




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From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU  Mon Jun 14 15:18:23 1999
From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 10:18:23 -0500
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
In-Reply-To: <3762DBE9.580@erols.com>
Message-ID: <161227050530.23782.7449557440285877654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

First of all, there is a difference between language and people.  For
instance, although the Veddas of Sri Lanka may be a different "people" (in
one sense or another), their language is Sinhala, i.e. Indo-Aryan.  So, we
can get all kinds of different phenotypes speaking the same language, and
the same phenotypes speaking different languages.  Put differently, when we
talk about migrations we must distinguish between languages and peoples.
(Not that language can spread without people, but the people themselves may
be of multiple phenotypes, and so may be other people who adopt the
language.)

Second, yes, there are several other linguistic groups in India/South Asia
beside Indo-Aryan and Dravidian.  These include the Munda languages as well
as Khasi (more distantly related to Munda) and Tibeto-Burman languages; but
there are also the language isolates Nahali (which may be the remnant of a
distinctly different language family), Burushaski (in the extreme NW),
possibly Kusunda (in Nepal, according to Witzel), and apparently also
Andamanese.  The existence of such language isolates raises serious
questions about the prehistoric and early historic linguistic scene in all
of South Asia.

Third, although McAlpin has asserted a linguistic relationship between
Dravidian and Elamite, this relationship has not been widely accepted (the
Elamite evidence is overly limited and thus does not permit establishing
any relationship with confidence).  Tyler has argued for a linguistic
relationship between Dravidian and Uralic:  there is an old paper on this
in the journal Language, and according to Andree Sjoberg, a follow-up study
which is more conclusive--I have not yet seen this study, and the evidence
in Language is tantalizing but not conclusive.  Others have claimed a
relationship with Altaic (this may need to be looked into in more detail;
what I have seen looks rather meager.  And then there is Clyde Winter who
argues for an African origin, but on very dubious grounds (e.g.:  there is
supposed to be a place-name suffix _-wana_ shared by Dravidian and African
languages, as in _goND(a)vana_ and _botwana_; but _goNDavana_ is Skt./IAr.
_goNDa-vana-_ 'the forest(-land) of the Gonds' [corresponding to
_khoND(a)-maal_, with the Dravidian -maal- 'forest, hill'], and
_bo-tshwana_ contains a place-name *pre-*fix _bo-_, thus contrasting with
_se-tshwana_ the name of the language, and _ba-tshwana_ the name of the
people; moreover, _tshw_ is the standard Setshwana reflex of earlier
palatalized _p_ (or _d_) and its _w_ therefore is of secondary origin).
Finally, there are also "Nostratic" and Greenbergian attempts to establish
Dravidian relationship with (most) other Eurasian languages, or even with
all human languages.

If any of these different theories should turn out to be better
established, this would lend credence to a migration of pre-Dravidian
speakers into South Asia -- unless we adapt the Hindutva "Out of India"
view (formulated for Indo-Aryan) and attribute this relationship, too, to
an outmigration from India.  At this point, however, all of this is rather
uncertain, and we have to turn to those who trace the dispersal of homo
sapiens for possible answers as to the origin of the different South Asian
phenotypes.  (Here, the most widely accepted theory argues for an African
origin of all human beings.)

abhivaadaye,

Hans Henrich Hock


>Dear  Indologists  specializing  in  Dravidian  studies:
>
>I  need  your  informed  opinions,  comments,  observations  etc.  on
>the  following:
>
>According  to  Prof. N.Subramaniam  (who  has  been  given  the  title
>"Historian  of  the  Tamils"  by  Prof. R. Sathyanathaier)  says  in
>book  "The  History  of  Tamilnad  to  AD  1336": "The  Dravidian
>speech  was  introduced  into  South  India  by  a  group  of  people
>who  migrated  from  the  original  home,  i.e. from  the  Eastern
>Mediterranean  region  to  South  India.  When  exactly  this  occurred
>it  is  difficult  to  say."  (p.22)
>
>
>Also,  Dr. David  W. McAlpin  has  written  a  tract  entitled
>"Proto-Elamo-Dravidian:  The  Evidence  and  its  Implications"
>(American  Philosophical  Society,  Philadelphia:1981)  seems  to  imply
>that  the  Dravidians  have  connections  outside  India.
>
>Since,  the  "Aryan  migration"  theory  was  being  so  hotly
>discussed,  I  am  curious  to  know  if,  in  the  light  of  the
>above,  the  "Dravidian  migration"  theory  had  any  connections  and
>implications  to  the  "Aryan"  one.
>
>Also,  are  there  any  people  in  South  Asia  who  neither  speak  an
>"Aryan"  nor  Dravidian  language?  If  so,  where  would  they  fit  in
>to  all  this?  And  are  there  any  theories  on  these  people?  Are
>the  Veddas  of  Ceylon  these  people?
>
>Many  thanks  in  advance  to  all  who  respond.
>
>Waiting  for  your  learned  responses,
>
>Regards,
>B.N.Hebbar


Hans Henrich Hock, Director
Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies
220 International Studies Building, MC-489
910 S. Fifth Street
Champaign IL 61820
217-265-5016, 217-244-7331
fax 217-333-6270
e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu
***Visit our website at:
          http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/




From hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU  Mon Jun 14 15:31:15 1999
From: hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 10:31:15 -0500
Subject: Jamshid
In-Reply-To: <199906132018.WAA12687@bednorz.get2net.dk>
Message-ID: <161227050532.23782.3098944706425467971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This is a beautiful folk etymology, but nothing more than that.  Avestan
_zara*t-ushtra_ (where _*t_ indicates the symbol usually transliterated as
a _t_ with a tiled underneath) would correspond to Skt. _jarad-uSTra_, and
is usually taken as a bahuvrihi meaning 'having aged/aging camels'.

abhivaadaye

Hans Henrich Hock


>> Thanks  for  your  input.  "Asura  MAyA"  is  indeed  an  interesting
>> rendering  for  "Ahura  Mazda".  But  I  thought  "Zarathusthra"  meant
>> "camel-tormenter".  "uShTra"  meaning  "camel"  in  Sanskrit  also.  Any
>> clarification  is  appreciated.
>
>I found something on the name Zarathustra.  David Frawley in his
>book "Gods, Sages and Kings" writes (on page 223):
>
>"The name of Zoroaster, the founder of the ancient Persian religion,
>is traceable to Sanskrit Hari-dyut-astra, the beautiful light of the
>star."
>
>Any comments on this?
>
>Sincerely,
>Toke Lindegaard Knudsen


Hans Henrich Hock, Director
Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies
220 International Studies Building, MC-489
910 S. Fifth Street
Champaign IL 61820
217-265-5016, 217-244-7331
fax 217-333-6270
e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu
***Visit our website at:
          http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/




From bhebbar at EROLS.COM  Mon Jun 14 14:31:27 1999
From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 10:31:27 -0400
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050523.23782.13149396568418191519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear  Prof. Vassilkov:

Thank  you  (spasiba ?)  for  your  reply.  Da,  I  am  aware  of  these
other  languages  that  are  spoken  in  my  motherland.  Because  it
has  always  historically  been  an  Aryan-Dravidian  issue,  I  just
confined  myself  to  those  two.

Regards,
B.N.Hebbar

PS: Please  don't  take  any  offense  of  the  Russian  that  I  am
using.  Just  practicing  the  few  words  I  know  in  a  friendly
way. Thanks.




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Mon Jun 14 09:38:56 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 11:38:56 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?-A simpler explanalation
In-Reply-To: <19990614011637.73118.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050487.23782.9067392773200761593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 13 Jun 99, at 18:16, Vishal Agarwal wrote:

> Respected Dr. Knudsen,

You don't have to refer to me as "Dr" as I am not one.  I am simply
a student working on my master thesis in history of mathematics.
Incidentally I am working with the Sulvasutras which you mention
below.


> I advance a simpler explanation:
>
> The Pythagoras theorem has been stated in the Baudhayana Sulba Sutras. Now
> many Hindus (like Sayanacarya) include even the Kalpasutras in the cateogory
> of Vedas, and the Hare Krishnas include even the Puranas etc. in 'Vedic
> Literature.'

Actually I do not have enough knowledge on this.  I rely mostly on
translations of the Sulbasutras and related articles and essays
which deal primarily with the mathematics.  I also want to know
more about the actual rituals and the procedures involved (other
than the geometric constructions).  I was referred to one book
called "Agni" edited by Frits Staal, which I somehow have
difficulties finding.  Does anyone have other references to these
things?  Also good references concerning the Vedas (explanations
of the divisions of the Veda, relations between different Vedic
literatures, relations between Vedas and, say, Kalpasutras) would
be appreciated.


> The fact that the theorem attributed to Pythagoras is stated in the
> Baudhayana Sulba as well is publicized in 100's of Mathematics texts
> prescribed for children in Indian schools (as also the fact that the
> 'Pascal's Triangle' occurs in Pinagalacarya's Chhanda sutras and so on).
> Since one of the persons involved in the discussion is a Hare Krishna, we
> might surmise that he got his facts slightly mixed up.

I am not sure I completely understand what you mean.  Is it that
since the theorem of Pythagoras is mentioned in the Sulbasutras,
which is considered Vedic by some, the Hare Krishna mistook this
to mean that Pythagoras was in India?  It seems a little simplistic
and not so plausible to me.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Mon Jun 14 09:38:56 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 11:38:56 +0200
Subject: Jamshid
In-Reply-To: <001c01beb5e5$cd013820$dfe001a3@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <161227050491.23782.17242866900697914626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 13 Jun 99, at 23:40, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> > I found something on the name Zarathustra.  David Frawley in his
> > book "Gods, Sages and Kings" writes (on page 223):
> > "The name of Zoroaster, the founder of the ancient Persian religion, is
> > traceable to Sanskrit Hari-dyut-astra, the beautiful light of the star."
> > Any comments on this?
> Yes. Frawley is not a reliable source, and his etymology of Zarathushtra
> is nonsense. The last part of the word is ushtra, which means camel.
> Unfortunately, I haven't got access to my "Iranian" books, and I don't
> remember what the first part of the word means, except that it is probably
> a verb.

I asked my wife about "Hari-dyut-astra" and "Zarathustra."  She
also failed to see the connection and made similar comments
about Frawley's etymology as you did.  Can the word "astra" even
be taken to mean "star" in Sanskrit?  "Astra" meaning "star"
seems Greek to me.  My wife said she had never seen any
connection where the word "astra" meant "star" in Sanskrit.  In
Sanskrit "astra" can be translated as "weapon."

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From belllu at OZEMAIL.COM.AU  Mon Jun 14 08:38:56 1999
From: belllu at OZEMAIL.COM.AU (lucinda bell)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 11:38:56 +0300
Subject: Earliest Autobiography
Message-ID: <161227050466.23782.9133412147166760497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For a 17th century autobiography in Brajbhasha (completed AD 1641) see
Banarsidas's Ardhakathanaka translated into English (with original text)
by Mukund Lath as Half A Tale (Rajasthan Prakrit Bharati Sansthan,
Jaipur:1981).

Richard Barz
ANU
Canberra

Mandakranta Bose wrote:
>
>         Can someone on the list tell me when the earliest autobiography
> was written in India? Who wrote it? I would appreciate any information
> anyone might have.
>
> Mandakranta Bose
> Department of Religious Studies/
> Director, Programme in Inter-cultural Studies in Asia
> Institute of Asian Research
> University of British Columbia
> Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2
> mbose at interchange.ubc.ca




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 14 18:48:46 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 11:48:46 -0700
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050549.23782.11848546551380029840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Toke Lindegaard Knudsen <tlk at MATH.KU.DK> wrote:
[...]

Dear Toke,

Don't take David Frawley seriously. Most of his writings
is garbage and with several contradictions, though he has
good support from the Hindutva folks. This will become clear
as you spend years studying old India.

Best wishes,
SM

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Jun 14 16:02:33 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 12:02:33 -0400
Subject: looking for article
Message-ID: <161227050536.23782.10194238709245133212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Birgit,

I have paged this and if it shows up will photocopy and send to you.
If it isn't on the shelf I will notify the list in case others can
find it.

Allen T.


<<Now, here is my next question. Unfortunately, the volume in
question
appears to be unavailable at Austrian university libraries. So I am
looking for someone who has it at hand and would be willing to mail
me a
copy of said article (details given below) ... in which case, please
contact me via private e-mail ...

Ashok Aklujkar: 'Praamaa.nya in the philosophy of the grammarians',
Studies in Indology:
Professor Rasik Vihari Joshi Felicitation Volume ..., Delhi: Shree
Publishing House, 1988-1989, pp. 15-28.>>





Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun 14 16:09:44 1999
From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 12:09:44 -0400
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
In-Reply-To: <19990614024336.67913.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050539.23782.8837294539904376394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 13 Jun 1999, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:

> Robert Zydenbos <zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE> wrote:
>
> >Seeing that some of the list members have been reading Aurobindo,
> >someone may help me with a reference. I was told that has written
> >somewhere that the prominence that is given to Advaitavedanta is not
> >the result of a natural development in Indian philosophy, but due to
> >the interest given in that school of thought by Western authors.
>
> Don't you think that this statement is more representative of the typical
> 19th century Bangla Babu than of the traditional pundits who were interested
> in Indian philosophies?

I wonder about this, but have yet to research this point which interests
me. It would seem to me that more traditional pundits would be better
aware of the variety of Vedantic traditions -- particularly those of
Ramanuja and Madhva -- and less likely to represent Sankara as
monolithically representative and authoritative in Vedantic thought.  My
own working (and as yet unresearched) hypothesis is that it might have
been some of the 'Bengali Babus' who coopted Advaitavad into their
discourses because it better served nationalist agendas. I wonder whether
on the whole (and I'm using broad brush strokes here since obviously one
cannot lump all 'Bengali babus' into one generic category), many of them
were *less* interested in the minutiae of the history of Indic Philosophy
(after all Sankara was opposed by many other schools and darsanas, not
just the later Vedantins), but that some nationalists found this
particular type of monistic metaphysics most suitable for nationalist
discourse?

Here's my tentative reasoning: the Brits were claiming that their presence
was necessary since if they left the subcontinent would disintegrate into
sectarian chaos.  Some nationalists felt that they needed a rubric that
would recognize the de facto plethora of religious expressions on the
subcontinent, but subsume it onto some kind of a unity.  Advaitavad
accomplishes this with some efficiency (ie Sankara's preference for the Up
verses stating that all rivers lead to the sea, the sap from different
insects merges into a generic sap, etc). Other traditions -- Vaishnavite
in particular -- were more exclusivistic, confrontational and sectarian in
their truth claims.

Of course, the western interest in Sankara and other factors may also have
been strong impetuses for the excessive success Advaitvad has enjoyed in
representations of Hindu philosophy, but I wonder to what extent the
nationalist imperative did as well?  Aurobindo's comment is of interest in
this regard.  Again, I am just sharing unresearched preliminary thoughts
here.  Edwin Bryant




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 14 19:16:07 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 12:16:07 -0700
Subject: "hari" & viSNu
Message-ID: <161227050551.23782.15458378022057940267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What does the word "hari" mean when applied to viSNu?

I am unable to find an entry in the  Cologne Capellar's  dictionary
an entry as applicable to visNu.
The dictionary repeatedly lists the sense of "yellow"  for the word
"hari" which does not seem to be related to viSNu directly or
indirectly.
Am I making any trivial mistakes in the search?

Regards,
Chandra
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Mon Jun 14 11:20:36 1999
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 12:20:36 +0100
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
In-Reply-To: <3764E18F.41F10730@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050499.23782.17845842411620452781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Lars Martin,
   there is after all a slight difference between the 3rd century B.C. and
the 3rd century A.D.!
   All the best,
      Georg

>> The oldest European reference to a connection between Pythagoreanism and
>> India is possibly the "Life of Apollonius" written by Philostratus
>> Flavius(ca. 3rd cent CE). Apollonius of Tyana, the Neo-Pythagorean, who was
>> considered an incarnation of Pythagoras, is said to have visited India.
>>
>> For a modern Indian myth based upon this, see T. M. P. Mahadevan's remarks
>> in his introduction to "Gaudapada: A Study in Early Vedanta" published by
>> the Madras University (4th ed., 1975).
>>
>> Vidyasankar
>
>Interesting. I find it quite possible that a 3rd century Greek visited India
>(after all, this is the epoch of Alexander, Megasthenes and other
>fartravelling
>Greeks). It is much less likely that a 6th century Greek did the same.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Lars Martin Fosse




From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Mon Jun 14 11:52:35 1999
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 12:52:35 +0100
Subject: CSX+ fonts & cross-platform email exchange
In-Reply-To: <199906141125.NAA121202@studserv.uni-leipzig.de>
Message-ID: <161227050512.23782.2328880895746227949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Jan wrote:

> ...

> just some questions:
> what is CDAC?

Centre for the Development of Advanced Computing, located in Pune, India.
They produce (among other things) high-quality Indian-language software
(especially word-processors). Have a look at
    http://www.cdac.org.in/html/gist/gistinfo.htm.
For some reason the list of Word Processing/Publishing Products given
there doesn't contain anything about their current product, iLeap; for
this, go to http://www.cdac.org.in/html/gist/ileap1.htm.

> is it availl. for mac?

No.

> anyone out there with experience of the indianlangkit for mac? (and is
> there a difference between the build in kit in OS 8.5 and the langkit?)

I can't answer this one.

> includes the Bengali all Assamese letters?

The CDAC software treats Assamese completely separately from Bengali, so
presumably the anser here is "yes".

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun 14 10:59:26 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 12:59:26 +0200
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
Message-ID: <161227050494.23782.13041921215952676091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vishal Agarwal wrote:

> Dear Drs. Reimann and Dr. Fosse,
>
> To the post beclow, I might add here that a more extensive exposition of
> Swami Dayanada's theory of Trivishtapa being the origin of Homo Sapiens is
> found in his series of 15 lectures called 'Poona Pravacana.' These were
> delivered by the Swami during his trip to Poona. .....

Dear Vishal Agarwal,

thank you for an interesting posting. However, I should perhaps warn you that my
paper does not deal specifically with Dayananda and his teachings. He is just
mentioned in passing because I try to establish a skeleton chronology for the
acceptance of Indigenous Aryanism as exemplified by some leading figures of the
nationalist movement. Here, Indology has provided me with better information
than my printed sources, and has saved my a lot of work (otherwise, I would have
had to spend a disproportionate amount of time pursuing a problem which is
marginal to my paper). My paper in its present avatara (draft) deals more with
the rhetoric of indigenism than with its substance.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun 14 11:03:43 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 13:03:43 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
Message-ID: <161227050496.23782.11934488407976620241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> The oldest European reference to a connection between Pythagoreanism and
> India is possibly the "Life of Apollonius" written by Philostratus
> Flavius(ca. 3rd cent CE). Apollonius of Tyana, the Neo-Pythagorean, who was
> considered an incarnation of Pythagoras, is said to have visited India.
>
> For a modern Indian myth based upon this, see T. M. P. Mahadevan's remarks
> in his introduction to "Gaudapada: A Study in Early Vedanta" published by
> the Madras University (4th ed., 1975).
>
> Vidyasankar

Interesting. I find it quite possible that a 3rd century Greek visited India
(after all, this is the epoch of Alexander, Megasthenes and other fartravelling
Greeks). It is much less likely that a 6th century Greek did the same.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE  Mon Jun 14 11:25:30 1999
From: ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (Jan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 13:25:30 +0200
Subject: CSX+ fonts & cross-platform email exchange
Message-ID: <161227050502.23782.10363546326330838464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>On Sat, 12 Jun 1999, Jaap Pranger wrote:
>
>> ...
>
>> Can you easily exchange Tex documents with Windows and MacOS
>> users?  I guess you can, but please tell.
>
>Yes, you can.
>
>> BTW, John, last year in Conv-Dev you mentioned ACII.  You said: "ACII
>> is the name used for the full 8-bit character set comprising 7-bit ASCII
>> in the lower half and 7-bit ISCII in the upper half."
>> Is this charset in use anywhere? I can't imagine reasonable Nagari
>> coming out from a 7-bit subset.
>
>It is used in all of CDAC's products (ALP for DOS, iLeap for Windows, and
>others). The output Nagari (/Bengali/Gujarati/Tamil/etc.) is extremely
>good. This is because, like Unicode, an intermediate piece of software (a
>"renderer") handles conversion from logical character to actual glyph.
>
>John Smith

just some questions:
? what is CDAC?
? is it availl. for mac?
? anyone out there with experience of the indianlangkit for mac? (and is
there a difference between the build in kit in OS 8.5 and the langkit?)
? includes the Bengali all Assamese letters?

greetings Jan Seifert

-----------------------------------------
end of transmission




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun 14 11:36:04 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 13:36:04 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?-A simpler explanalation
Message-ID: <161227050505.23782.14368410517658543838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Actually I do not have enough knowledge on this.  I rely mostly on
> translations of the Sulbasutras and related articles and essays
> which deal primarily with the mathematics.  I also want to know
> more about the actual rituals and the procedures involved (other
> than the geometric constructions).  I was referred to one book
> called "Agni" edited by Frits Staal, which I somehow have
> difficulties finding.  Does anyone have other references to these
> things?

If you are working on the Shulbasutras, you should definitely read the papers by
A. Seidenberg. Seidenberg has a contribution on Vedic geometry in Staal's book.
The book should be at the University library of Oslo. It would formerly be at the
Indo-Iranian Institute, but the whole institute library is being moved these days
to the new university library. "Agni" may not be available for some time. Below
are the references to the Seidenberg papers and to Staal's book:

Seidenberg, A. 1962. The Ritual Origin of Geometry. Archive for History of Exact
Sciences 1:488-527.
Seidenberg, A. 1978. The Origin of Mathematics. Archive for History of Exact
Sciences 18:301-342.

In the same journal, Seidenberg has also published: "The Ritual Origin of
Counting" 2 (1962) and "The Ritual Origin of the Circle and Square", 25 (1972)

Staal, Frits. 1983. Agni, the Vedic ritual of the fire altar. Berkeley : Asian
Humanities Press.

Hope this helps.

Lars Martin Fosse




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun 14 11:41:47 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 13:41:47 +0200
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050508.23782.15439511182826915386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> T. L. Knutsen wrote:

> I asked my wife about "Hari-dyut-astra" and "Zarathustra."  She
> also failed to see the connection and made similar comments
> about Frawley's etymology as you did.  Can the word "astra" even
> be taken to mean "star" in Sanskrit?  "Astra" meaning "star"
> seems Greek to me.  My wife said she had never seen any
> connection where the word "astra" meant "star" in Sanskrit.  In
> Sanskrit "astra" can be translated as "weapon."
>

Astra is quite correctly "weapon" in skt. Star could be several things, one of
which is star-. Astra is based on the verbal root as- which means to throw, -tra
being a suffix.

Is your wife a sanskritist?

Lars Martin Fosse




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun 14 11:44:42 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 13:44:42 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
Message-ID: <161227050510.23782.9999128758276332829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Georg von Simson wrote:

> Dear Lars Martin,
>    there is after all a slight difference between the 3rd century B.C. and
> the 3rd century A.D.!
>    All the best,
>       Georg
>
> >> The oldest European reference to a connection between Pythagoreanism and
> >> India is possibly the "Life of Apollonius" written by Philostratus
> >> Flavius(ca. 3rd cent CE). Apollonius of Tyana, the Neo-Pythagorean, who was
> >> considered an incarnation of Pythagoras, is said to have visited India.
> >>

Ooooooops! I didn't quite catch on to the CE. Shame on me. Eternal shame.

Lars Martin




From thompson at JLC.NET  Mon Jun 14 18:02:05 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 14:02:05 -0400
Subject: Jamshid
In-Reply-To: <v04011701b38ad0299b71@[128.174.52.170]>
Message-ID: <161227050547.23782.5626940995133024815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While it is true that *zarathuStra* is generally understood as 'possessing
old camels' [e.g., by Kellens & Pirart in their edition of the Old Avestan
texts], others [notably Humbach in his edition and Mayrhofer in his volume
on Old Iranian names] have continued to express reservations against this
interpretation.

The problem is that the theta in the name Zarathustra is assumed to have
replaced the t with tilde underneath:

zarath - uStra  < zarat~ -uStra

As Humbach argues, the transformation from -th- to -t~- is expected in Late
Avestan but *not* in early Avestan. Humbach speculates that the name of the
prophet may indicate dialect mixture in Old Avestan texts, and the presence
of another Iranian dialect distinct from Old Avestan which may well have
been Z's 'mother tongue.'

So, it seems that the interpretation of Zarathustra's name remains open.
Humbach suggests three possibilities, which briefly are:

1. possessing old camels

2. possessing yellow camels [cf. Avest. *zairi* = Skt. *hari*]

3. possessing furious camels [Avest. zar- = Skt. hR- [hRNIte], to be angry]

As for Ahura MazdA, *mazdA* of course corresponds to Skt. *medhA'*, both
meaning 'wisdom'. However, the folk etymology, Ahura MAyA, for Ahura MazdA,
caught my eye, because in fact the word *mAiiA* is attested in Avestan,
with the same meaning as Skt *mAyA'*. It occurs only once [in Z's Gathas],
and it is directly associated with Vohu Manah, 'Good Mind', while MazdA
occurs in the previous line [though not Ahura].

So I take the folk etymology, Ahura MazdA = Ahura MAyA, as a response to
Vedic associations between the words *a'sura* and *mAyA'* [fairly common].
And there is the possibility that the same or similar association was made
in Avestan [this cannot be claimed for sure because the term unfortunately
occurs only once].

In any case, one point may be worth the list's attention: the concept of
mAyA seems by no means to be a unique development of the South Asian
culture area. The Vedic Aryans appear to have brought this idea with them
as an inheritance from the common Indo-Iranian period. That at least
appears to be suggested by the evidence, as I see it. Likewise for the
culture concept mantra, for example, which is as deeply rooted in Avestan
as it is in Vedic.

Also, I do not think that Avestan words should be viewed as 'mleccha'
words, as was recently I think implied. From the point of view of the
Rgveda at least, this is not true at all. The associations between Old
Avestan and RV are pervasive and deep.

George Thompson




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 21:39:46 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 14:39:46 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050562.23782.17402775640747957480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Lars,

You may know these:
a) Jayant Lele, Hindutva, the emergence of the right,
Madras, 1995
b) Tapan Basu, Khaki shorts and saffron flags: a critique
of the Hindu Right, London, 1993
c) Rakhi Seghal, Hindutva, reimagining India,
M.A. thesis, American university, 1995
d) John R. Pincince, Modernity and Hindutva ideology:
V. D. Savarkar and the construction of Hindu national
identity, 1997, M.A. thesis, UHawaii.
e) Ritu Kohli, Political ideas of M. S. Golwalkar:
Hindutva, nationalism, secularism, Delhi, 1993
f) C. Jaffrelot, The Hindu nationlist movement in India,
Columbia university press, 1996
g) J. E. Llewellyn, The Arya Samaj as a fundamentalist
movement: a study in comparative fundamentalism,
Delhi: Manohar, 1993
h) Brenda Cossman, Secularism's last sign: Hindutva and
the (mis)rule of law. OxfordUP, 1999.

Also,
Aurobindo Ghose (1872-1950)
Swami Dayanand Saraswati: an assessment
Ambala city: Arya samaj, 1987, 62 p.
[Comprises two articles previously published in
Vedic magazine, Lahore, 1915. Bibliography, p. 51-62]

Regards,
N. Ganesan



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From ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 15:03:15 1999
From: ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM (Asha Naidu)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 15:03:15 +0000
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050527.23782.9090476911786350620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

According to a parsi religious site at
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~zarathus/zgen33.html
Zara-thustra means                Zara = golden, Ushtra =
                                                 camel, star, Golden
                                                 Star, possessing golden
                                                 camels, possessing old
                                                 camels. He who manages
                                                 /drives camels.
Esoterically
                                                 ushtra = divine knowledge,
                                                 hence Zarathustra means
                                                 possessing divine knowledge

My reading of Zoroastrian legends suggests that Jamshid is a later day
corruption of Yima-Kshaeta (Kshaeta = king)the legendary king of the
Avestans when they lived in Airyane Vaejahi their ancestral
homeland(http://www.ozemail.com.au/~zarathus/var33.html). Similarly the name
"Khurshid" is thought to be derived from kurukshaeta. Please note that my
sources are Avestan religious legends and not linguistic derivations - and I
am not certain that they are correct.

sincerely

Asha




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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 22:03:53 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 15:03:53 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050570.23782.3941491544098935739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Edwin Bryant <ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

>I wonder about this, but have yet to research this point which interests
>me. It would seem to me that more traditional pundits would be better
>aware of the variety of Vedantic traditions -- particularly those of
>Ramanuja and Madhva -- and less likely to represent Sankara as
>monolithically representative and authoritative in Vedantic thought.
Quite so. Notice however, that many pundits would have also followed the
sarvadarSanasangraha in putting advaitavedAnta at the top of a hierarchy of
darSanas. And for different reasons than those dictated by the nationalist
agenda. One should also be aware of various kinds of traditional pundits.
Within the Smarta fold, pundits were free to offer their own interpretations
of vedAnta, many differing from Sankara, but still remaining advaitic in
import. Those born into Madhva or Srivaishnava families would naturally have
opted for their own respective leaders.

>Here's my tentative reasoning: the Brits were claiming that their presence
>was necessary since if they left the subcontinent would disintegrate into
>sectarian chaos.  Some nationalists felt that they needed a rubric that
>would recognize the de facto plethora of religious expressions on the
>subcontinent, but subsume it onto some kind of a unity.

It is my impression that many 19th c. nationalists actually wanted to deny
the plethora of religious expression in the subcontinent. It was achieved in
a variety of ways - some practices were simply denounced as "superstition,"
others were reinterpreted as referring to yogic experiences (even if they
were not) and yet others were wished away under the "ekam sat, viprAH
bahudhA vadanti" argument. While granting that a number of issues were in
serious need of reform, the biggest problem confronting them was still that
of "idol worship." If Rammohan Roy offered a solution through the syncretism
of the Brahmo Samaj, Dayananda called for going back to the Vedas, and
Aurobindo offered his version of yoga.

It seems to me that many of the nationalists consciously or unconsciously
bought the theory of the white man's burden. Many Indians probably continue
to do so. It is still very common to see quotations of what so-and-so said
about some Indian personality in Indian publications. It just so happens
that the so-and-so is invariably a Westerner. Earlier, it used to be Max
Muller or William Jones. Nowadays it is Frawley or Elst. The more things
change, the more they seem to remain the same!


  Advaitavad
>accomplishes this with some efficiency (ie Sankara's preference for the Up
>verses stating that all rivers lead to the sea, the sap from different
>insects merges into a generic sap, etc).

This would be truer of Vivekananda and the Ramakrishna Math and Mission than
of the motivations of the generic nationalist. Whichever way you look at it,
in Vivekananda's case, the preference for advaita was motivated primarily by
a need to interpret the range of religious expression that one individual,
Ramakrishna, is said to have experienced. The only other choice would have
been "tantrism," but that often came with unsavory baggage. It was primarily
psychological for him, but with social or political implications.

>Of course, the western interest in Sankara and other factors may also have
>been strong impetuses for the excessive success Advaitvad has enjoyed in
>representations of Hindu philosophy, but I wonder to what extent the
>nationalist imperative did as well?

I should think that the two are not mutually exclusive. Something that is
often overlooked is the direct and indirect influence of Theosophy on the
English educated Indian elite of the 19th century. You just have to see the
choice of words (and the quaint capitalization) in English translations made
by Indian authors to see how widespread this was. Annie Besant's role in the
rise of Indian nationalism should be given its due too.

>Aurobindo's comment is of interest in
>this regard.  Again, I am just sharing unresearched preliminary thoughts
>here.  Edwin Bryant
>

As far as Aurobindo is concerned, one must remember that he had his own
peculiar interpretation of the upanishads. He was indebted to Darwinian
evolution theory in many ways. As such, his was an alternative vision that
competed with traditional vedAnta. And as always, whatever one's own
interpretation of vedAnta may be, one can argue for Sankara or against
Sankara, but one simply cannot ignore Sankara. Aurobindo's comment has to be
viewed against this background. And to me, that in itself shows how
important, if not authoritative or representative, advaita vedAnta continues
to be.

Regards,
Vidyasankar


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From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Mon Jun 14 11:17:51 1999
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 15:17:51 +0400
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050521.23782.9863769965251973376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr.Ganesan,
        there was probably a mistake in my old posting which you quote:
the prophet's name is to be split into *zarat-uStra* (not *zara-tuStra*).
        Best regards,
                                        Yaroslav Vassilkov

>zara-tuStra - "one whose camels are old" parallel to
>the Mitanni Aryan name, vRddhAzva "one whose horses are old".
>He adds:
>"all these names aiming at turning off, repelling
>evil spirits by way of showing them the insignificance and
>poverty of the man bearing the name (old horses/or camels,
>bad chariot, no money, nothing interesting at all here, go
>away!)."




_______________________________________________________________




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Mon Jun 14 12:32:01 1999
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 15:32:01 +0300
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
In-Reply-To: <v03110703b38a952e6aec@[129.240.19.27]>
Message-ID: <161227050516.23782.7055225849180199420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Philostratus wrote his Life of Apollonius in the third century, the
supposed Indian travels of Apollonius  took place in the middle of the
first century CE. In any case Lars Martin is right that a Greek visiting
India in the 3rd century BCE is much more likely than one in the 6th. There
are a number of apocryphical stories of Indian travels of early Greek
philosophers  (e.g. Solon, Democritus and Pythagoras), but they are all
centuries later and rather inconvincing. Some of these men were travellers
indeed, and learned a lot of things from Egyptians, Babylonians and
Iranians (Heraclitus), but first evidence of direct intellectual contact
with India comes only in the times of Alexander (who even had a few
philosophers among his followers). I have discussed all this in my India in
Early Greek Literature (Helsinki 1989), 108ff.

Regards

Klaus


Klaus Karttunen
Institute for Asian and African Studies
Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 22:49:14 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 15:49:14 -0700
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227050585.23782.13709775752437152966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It means- "He who takes away the sorrows and sins of his devotees." That is
what we have been taught by the Pundits.


----Original Message Follows----
From: Periannan Chandrasekaran <perichandra at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: "hari" & viSNu
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:16:07 -0700

What does the word "hari" mean when applied to viSNu?

I am unable to find an entry in the  Cologne Capellar's  dictionary
an entry as applicable to visNu.
The dictionary repeatedly lists the sense of "yellow"  for the word
"hari" which does not seem to be related to viSNu directly or
indirectly.
Am I making any trivial mistakes in the search?

Regards,
Chandra
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From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Mon Jun 14 14:02:29 1999
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 16:02:29 +0200
Subject: Earliest Autobiography
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.990613114830.4164C-100000@interchange.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <161227050518.23782.505248245665845319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 13 Jun 99, at 11:54, Mandakranta Bose wrote:

>         Can someone on the list tell me when the earliest autobiography
> was written in India? Who wrote it? I would appreciate any information
> anyone might have.

Baa.na?s aakhyaayikaa (prose novel) Har.sacarita (7th century 
A.D.) contains a (remarkable) biography of the author in the 
first three chapters. Cf., e.g., Siegfried Lienhard, A History of 
Classical Poetry, Sanskrit - Pali - Prakrit, Wiesbaden: Otto 
Harrassowitz 1984 (= A History of Indian Literature. III.1.), pp. 
249 ff.




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 14 23:16:38 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 16:16:38 -0700
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?-A simpler explanalation
Message-ID: <161227050588.23782.9233823495899051234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Toke,

Detailed response is as below:

----Original Message Follows----
From: Toke Lindegaard Knudsen <tlk at MATH.KU.DK>
Subject: Re: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?-A simpler explanalation
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:38:56 +0200


VA Wrote:
 > I advance a simpler explanation:
 >
 > The Pythagoras theorem has been stated in the Baudhayana Sulba Sutras.
Now
 > many Hindus (like Sayanacarya) include even the Kalpasutras in the
cateogory
 > of Vedas, and the Hare Krishnas include even the Puranas etc. in 'Vedic
 > Literature.'
Toke wrote:
Actually I do not have enough knowledge on this.  I rely mostly on
translations of the Sulbasutras and related articles and essays
which deal primarily with the mathematics.  I also want to know
more about the actual rituals and the procedures involved (other
than the geometric constructions).  I was referred to one book
called "Agni" edited by Frits Staal, which I somehow have
difficulties finding.
VA WRITES: The complete reference for the concerned book is given below
(beware however that it is biased towards the Srauta rituals of the
Nambudiri community and so is not really representative of of the entire
gamut of Vedic ritual). Several American libraries have this text and so you
can order it via ILL.
Author:         Staal, Frits.

Title:          Agni, the Vedic ritual of the fire altar / by Frits Staal,
in
                   collaboration with C.V. Somayajipad and M. Itti Ravi
                   Nambudiri ; photographs by Adelaide de Menil.

Published:      Berkeley, Ca. : Asian Humanities Press, 1983.

Description:    2 v. : ill. (some col.) ; 30 cm. + 2 cassettes in case (22
                   cm.)

Subjects, Library of Congress :
                 Agnicayana (Hindu rite)

Contributors:   Somayajipad, C. V. (Cherumukku Vaidikan)
                 Itti Ravi Nambudiri, M.
                 De Menil, Adelaide.

Notes:          2 folded leaves in back pockets of v. 2.
                 Includes index.
                 Bibliography: p. 703-716.

ISBN:           0895814501 (set)
____________________________

Toke wrote:
Does anyone have other references to these
things?
VA WRITES: Unfortunately, the books I am aware of are in Hindi, Sanskrit,
Gujarati and Marathi. These might not of much help to you. But you could do
an author's search under 'Frits Staal' or a keyword search under 'Srauta'
_____________

Toke Wrote:
Also good references concerning the Vedas (explanations
of the divisions of the Veda, relations between different Vedic
literatures, relations between Vedas and, say, Kalpasutras) would
be appreciated.
VA WRITES: The best works are again in India vernaculars (One is a massive 8
volume series, and the other is a 3 volume one). For your purposes, you
might useeither of the following2  small texts in English:

1. Author:         Shastri, Gaurinath Bhattacharyya.

Title:          A history of Vedic literature / by Gaurinath Sastri.

Published:      Calcutta : Sanskrit Pustak Bhandar, 1982.

Description:    vi, 201 p. ; 23 cm.

Subjects, Library of Congress :
                 Vedas--Criticism, interpretation, etc.
                 Hindu literature--History and criticism.

2. Author:         Sharma, S. N. (Shambhu Nath), 1936-

Title:          A history of Vedic literature <by> S. N. Sharma.

Edition:        <1st ed.>

Published:      Varanasi, Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office, 1973.

Description:    142 p. 23 cm.

Subjects, Library of Congress :
                 Vedic literature--History and criticism.

Other titles:   Vedic literature.


Series:         Chowkhamba Sanskrit studies, v. 92

Notes:          Running title: Vedic literature.
                 Bibliography: p. <131>-132.
__________

In addition to these two, there is another highly accessible series by Jan
Gonda, a description of the first volume of which is as below. However, the
scope of these volumes is different and you might get lost. Besides, they
are replete with errors and other shoddy work: (Volume1 is on Samhitas and
Brahmanas--two major branches of Vedic literature)

3.  Title:          A History of Indian literature / edited by Jan Gonda.

Published:      Wiesbaden : Harrassowitz, 1973-

Description:    v. 24 cm.

Subjects, Library of Congress :
                 Indic literature--History and criticism.

Contributors:   Gonda, J. (Jan), 1905-

Notes:          Issued in parts.

________________________________

VA WROTE:
 > The fact that the theorem attributed to Pythagoras is stated in the
 > Baudhayana Sulba as well is publicized in 100's of Mathematics texts
 > prescribed for children in Indian schools (as also the fact that the
 > 'Pascal's Triangle' occurs in Pinagalacarya's Chhanda sutras and so on).
 > Since one of the persons involved in the discussion is a Hare Krishna, we
 > might surmise that he got his facts slightly mixed up.
TOKE WROTE:
I am not sure I completely understand what you mean.  Is it that
since the theorem of Pythagoras is mentioned in the Sulbasutras,
which is considered Vedic by some, the Hare Krishna mistook this
to mean that Pythagoras was in India?  It seems a little simplistic
and not so plausible to me.

VA WRITES: Apologies for the condensed argument. What I meant was that some
Indians use the fact priority of the Baudhayana Sulba Sutras to argue that
the Pythagoras theorem was invented here and this knowledge then went to
Greece. The Hare Krishnas also typically believe that India was the origin
of sciences.  Actually, in the absence on any reasonable data, we can only
speculate on the reasons of the Hare Krishna's statement and cannot reach
any definite conclusion. Since you are a  mathematician, you are well
conversant with the scientific method and therefore were able to find the
loophole in this statement. But as your knowledge of Indology grows, you
will discover that statistically insignficant data (or even outliers) are
used to construct grand theories by Indologists. Any inconveneient data is
often ignored or brushed aside :-). The theories proposed by other
listmembers cannot be certain either, due to the insufficiency of data on
which they are based. But to be certain, Pythagoras is not at all mentioned
in the Vedic Samhitas and Brahmanas.
BTW, I have the relevant volume of the 8 volume work on Vedic literature
(which I have mentioned above) and this work has several chapters on the
Sulba sutras. If you could email me (personally)  specific querries, I could
try translating the portions you require, if they are short enough.

Best regards and good luck,

Vishal


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From Birgit.Kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Mon Jun 14 07:30:19 1999
From: Birgit.Kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 16:30:19 +0900
Subject: looking for article
Message-ID: <161227050525.23782.9620928927784538140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

thanks to George Cardona for providing the full publication details of
the Aklujkar-article that I was looking for.

Now, here is my next question. Unfortunately, the volume in question
appears to be unavailable at Austrian university libraries. So I am
looking for someone who has it at hand and would be willing to mail me a
copy of said article (details given below) ... in which case, please
contact me via private e-mail ...

Ashok Aklujkar: 'Praamaa.nya in the philosophy of the grammarians',
Studies in Indology:
Professor Rasik Vihari Joshi Felicitation Volume ..., Delhi: Shree
Publishing House, 1988-1989, pp. 15-28.

regards,


--
Birgit Kellner
Institut fuer Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Universitaet Wien
Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies / Vienna University




From klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA  Mon Jun 14 21:22:42 1999
From: klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Bo Klintberg)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 17:22:42 -0400
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
In-Reply-To: <3764E18F.41F10730@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050559.23782.5365897393542969242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> Interesting. I find it quite possible that a 3rd century Greek visited India
> (after all, this is the epoch of Alexander, Megasthenes and other fartravelling
> Greeks). It is much less likely that a 6th century Greek did the same.

As usual, you are applying statistics the wrong way. Why do you keep
doing that? What <practical use> is there for us to read your
"conclusions" that a John Doe of 6th century B.C. is less likely to have
gone to India than a 3rd century one? People who <do> travel are not John
Does--they are <real people>. They live their lives without any thoughts
about social statistics. I don't see that you have any arguments
that would prevent one <specific> scientist or even a group of <specific>
scientists going between India and Greece in 600 BC, in 700 BC, in 800 BC,
in 900 BC, in 1000 BC, etc, etc. Unless, of course, you think that the
Indians were chimpanzees at the the time of 1000 BC or something, and that
they only became humans later. If that is what you say, then I say to you:
Prove it!

Bo Klintberg
Institute for the History and Philosophy of Science and Technology
University of Toronto




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 14 22:32:53 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 18:32:53 -0400
Subject: criteria for extra-South Asian origins of concepts and words (was              Re: Jamshid)
Message-ID: <161227050575.23782.15164107550623247342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 6/14/99 1:03:19 PM Central Daylight Time, thompson at JLC.NET
writes:

> In any case, one point may be worth the list's attention: the concept of
>  mAyA seems by no means to be a unique development of the South Asian
>  culture area. The Vedic Aryans appear to have brought this idea with them
>  as an inheritance from the common Indo-Iranian period. That at least
>  appears to be suggested by the evidence, as I see it. Likewise for the
>  culture concept mantra, for example, which is as deeply rooted in Avestan
>  as it is in Vedic.

I have a theoretical question. In discussions of Dravidian etymology of
words, a criterion often used to argue for proto-Dravidian origin is whether
cognates occur in non-contiguous branches of Dravidian , eg., cognates
occurring in north and south Dravidian. What are the corresponding criteria
used in the case of IE to conclude proto-IE origins? A related question is
can the occurrence of a concept or a linguistic item in both Iranian and
Indian be used to argue against it first originating in South Asia and
spreading to Iranian, given the proximity of the two? Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Ursula.Graefe at T-ONLINE.DE  Mon Jun 14 17:06:57 1999
From: Ursula.Graefe at T-ONLINE.DE (Graefe)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 19:06:57 +0200
Subject: Ekacakra, where?
Message-ID: <161227050545.23782.556139772678706447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mrs. Reusch,
as your colleague probably knows the place of the burning house of lac is said
to have been Lakhamandal/Garhwal. Maybe there would be a chance of looking for
Ekacakraa also around that area? There is a hill resort called Chakrata
about 50kms west of Lakhamandal, seemingly founded by the British, but one never
knows. Just to give a suggestion.
Sorry, if this is no good.
Greetings Ursula Graefe

B. Reusch schrieb:
> Deal list members,
> A colleague currently on the road writes to me with the following query.
> The best I can do for him, it appears, is for me to pass the questions on
> to you. Could some of you help me out? Thanks.
>
> >I am trying to find information about the possible location of the
> >Mahabharata town of Ekacakraa where the Pandavas first settled after
> >escaping the burning house of lac. In West Bengal, there is a village named
> >Ekacakraa which claims to be that town. An eighteenth century Gaudiya
> >Vaishnava work, the Bhakti-ratnaakara, also affirms this claim for the
> >village. I would appreciate any help with the following:
> >Are there any
> >competing claims for the location of this town, either by scholars or
> >traditional Hindus? Are there any scholarly articles, or references in
> >books, which deal with this?
> >Thank you very much.
> >
>
> Beatrice Reusch
> University of California, Berkeley




From thompson at JLC.NET  Tue Jun 15 00:14:27 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 20:14:27 -0400
Subject: criteria for extra-South Asian origins of concepts and words              (was              Re: Jamshid)
In-Reply-To: <bda6a738.2496dd15@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227050590.23782.5274790749182345321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello Palaniappan,

These are interesting questions which I also think are worthy of
discussion. First of all, let me make it clear that I am not making any
claims whatsoever about proto-IE origins. So I will defer your first
question to others. My focus in this context is exclusively on Indo-Iranian.

I am very much interested in refining our awareness of the problems
involved in reconstructing a common Indo-Iranian language and culture. To
take one example, we have a concept mantra/ma,thra [the sequence -a,-
represents -a- with subscript hook] well attested in both branches. What
are the possibilities?

One possibility is that the concept is an inheritance from common
Indo-Iranian period, before the branching. Another is the completely
independent genesis of the concept in both branches [whether due to some
foreign influence in either or neither case]. Yet another possibility is
that the concept arose first in one branch and then was borrowed by the
other. Of these three possibilities -- shared origins, independent origins,
or borrowing -- it seems to me that the default assumption among
Indo-Iranists has always been the first: that if we see a concept or a word
attested in both branches of Indo-Iranian, then we should assume that it is
an inherited concept or word. In general, I agree with this principle. But
in my recent researches I have come to think that there was significant
contact between the two branches *after* divergence, so that the
possibility of borrowing -- in either direction -- has come to seem much
more viable.

I think that the concept mantra/ma,thra is likely to be inherited rather
than a borrowing or independent development because it is *very* well
attested in both branches [as a matter of fact, statistically probably more
frequent in Avestan than in Vedic, so if one wishes to assume borrowing,
then why not from Avestan to Vedic, rather than the other way?].

I myself am not terribly confident in general rules. I prefer to look at
each case individually and to make my best guess based on a thorough
examination of the texts [that is a basic philological principle which I
trust in]. I have looked for clues suggesting that the Vedic or the Avestan
terms might have been borrowed from the other branch, but I haven't found
any such clues. And so, I have come to the conclusion that, *in this case*,
the concept and the word is an inheritance.

Other cases will have to be decided on the merits of each case.

Hope that this is useful to you,

[comments and criticisms would, of course, be appreciated],

George Thompson

At 06:32 PM 6/14/1999 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 6/14/99 1:03:19 PM Central Daylight Time, thompson at JLC.NET
>writes:
>
>> In any case, one point may be worth the list's attention: the concept of
>>  mAyA seems by no means to be a unique development of the South Asian
>>  culture area. The Vedic Aryans appear to have brought this idea with them
>>  as an inheritance from the common Indo-Iranian period. That at least
>>  appears to be suggested by the evidence, as I see it. Likewise for the
>>  culture concept mantra, for example, which is as deeply rooted in Avestan
>>  as it is in Vedic.
>
>I have a theoretical question. In discussions of Dravidian etymology of
>words, a criterion often used to argue for proto-Dravidian origin is whether
>cognates occur in non-contiguous branches of Dravidian , eg., cognates
>occurring in north and south Dravidian. What are the corresponding criteria
>used in the case of IE to conclude proto-IE origins? A related question is
>can the occurrence of a concept or a linguistic item in both Iranian and
>Indian be used to argue against it first originating in South Asia and
>spreading to Iranian, given the proximity of the two? Thanks in advance.
>
>Regards
>S. Palaniappan
>
>




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Tue Jun 15 02:27:58 1999
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 22:27:58 -0400
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050592.23782.933883776387464517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Edwin Bryant <ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

> I wonder about this, but have yet to research this point which
interests
> me. It would seem to me that more traditional pundits would be
better
> aware of the variety of Vedantic traditions -- particularly those of
> Ramanuja and Madhva -- and less likely to represent Sankara as
> monolithically representative and authoritative in Vedantic thought.
My

I agree that sha.nkara's system has been studied disproportionately
more than the other systems. However, I think the early British had an
important reason for studying sha.nkara more than others. The systems
of Ramanuja and Madhva are more or less restricted to Tamil Nadu and
Karnataka respectively (with some small strongholds elsewhere). The
smArtas who owe allegiance to sha.nkara are spread all over the
country. They are definitely greater in number and percentage. Even in
the 11th century and 12th century Jain works, advaita is one of the
systems which is attacked the most. So there is good evidence the
infulence of the advaita school was considerable. We shouldn't forget
the close ties of the Hindu kings of the 13th century  to the advaita
teacher Vidyaranya and his teacher Vidyasankara.

Your points about Hindu nationalists using advaita since the opther
schools were more exclusivist is true to a large extent also.
Vivekananda typifies this trend. So does Radhakrishnan, though his
personal philosophy does not seem to have been advaita.

Rama




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Mon Jun 14 21:05:49 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 23:05:49 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?-A simpler explanalation
In-Reply-To: <3764E923.ED338E67@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050554.23782.8414077280969198299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 14 Jun 99, at 13:36, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> If you are working on the Shulbasutras, you should definitely read the papers by
> A. Seidenberg. Seidenberg has a contribution on Vedic geometry in Staal's book.
> The book should be at the University library of Oslo. It would formerly be at the
> Indo-Iranian Institute, but the whole institute library is being moved these days
> to the new university library. "Agni" may not be available for
some time.

Thank you for the help.  I know of Seidenberg's work.  His ideas are
very interesting and he has many good points.  Are you aware of
any references to reactions to his ideas from more conservative
scholars?  Jens Hoyrup (an authority on Babylonian mathematics)
told me to be very careful with Seidenberg.

Regarding "Agni" then I ordered it via the Royal Library here in
Copenhagen, but for some reasons they never got back to me.  I
will try and contact them again.  I get the impression that "Agni" is
a very important work.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Mon Jun 14 21:05:49 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 23:05:49 +0200
Subject: Jamshid
In-Reply-To: <3764EA7B.57603B9A@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050557.23782.14914046702306581430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 14 Jun 99, at 13:41, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> > I asked my wife about "Hari-dyut-astra" and "Zarathustra."  She
> > also failed to see the connection and made similar comments
> > about Frawley's etymology as you did.  Can the word "astra" even
> > be taken to mean "star" in Sanskrit?  "Astra" meaning "star"
> > seems Greek to me.  My wife said she had never seen any
> > connection where the word "astra" meant "star" in Sanskrit.  In
> > Sanskrit "astra" can be translated as "weapon."
> Astra is quite correctly "weapon" in skt. Star could be several things, one of
> which is star-. Astra is based on the verbal root as- which means to throw, -tra
> being a suffix.

-tra means "to release" as in the word "mantra" being something
that "sets free the mind (mana)."  Also this is found in the word
ksatriya.  Does the word "astra" (weapon) coming from "throw,
release" refer to the releasing of a mantra?


> Is your wife a sanskritist?

Not by profession but she has for the last 10 years studied different
Sanskrit literatures and from this gained quite some knowledge of
Sanskrit as a language.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun 14 22:00:39 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 00:00:39 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?-A simpler explanalation
Message-ID: <161227050564.23782.10544503008338109016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Toke Lindegaard Knudsen wrote:

>
> Thank you for the help.  I know of Seidenberg's work.  His ideas are
> very interesting and he has many good points.  Are you aware of
> any references to reactions to his ideas from more conservative
> scholars?  Jens Hoyrup (an authority on Babylonian mathematics)
> told me to be very careful with Seidenberg.
>

You should be. Boyer in his History of Mathematics rejects his theories. However,
Seidenberg is not a bad scholar, and because of that, you can extract valuable
information from his work without subscribing to his main conclusions. The problem is
that his reconstruction of the early history of maths is quite speculative in some
respects, not unlike some of the reconstructions you see based on linguistic or
archaeological material. What I think he shows rather convincingly is that some of the
maths that are described in the Shulbasutras were known already in the Brahmana period.
This is not an unreasonable conclusion. What is dubious, is his insistence that
Babylonian and Greek maths were derived from "Vedic" mathematics. Influences may have
gone either way, and one should also reckon with the possibility that some mathematical
principles were discovered independently. But if you read him with a critical mind, you
may find many interesting observations.

>
> Regarding "Agni" then I ordered it via the Royal Library here in
> Copenhagen, but for some reasons they never got back to me.  I
> will try and contact them again.  I get the impression that "Agni" is
> a very important work.
>

It certainly is, and it is rather bulky: two big volumes. But you may find it valuable.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun 14 22:03:31 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 00:03:31 +0200
Subject: Shulbasutras
Message-ID: <161227050567.23782.8279531043482025144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As an afterthought:

I have a book on the Shulbasutras written by an Indian engineer which might be of
interest to you. Unfortunately, I haven't got it here in Oxford, it is in my home in
Oslo, but if you send me an email in the middle of July or so and remind me, I should
be back, and I can give you the bibliographic details. I have not had the opportunity
to read it yet, but from leafing through it, it looks quite interesting.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun 14 22:14:47 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 00:14:47 +0200
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050572.23782.3482090901550250835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
> -tra means "to release" as in the word "mantra" being something
> that "sets free the mind (mana)."  Also this is found in the word
> ksatriya.  Does the word "astra" (weapon) coming from "throw,
> release" refer to the releasing of a mantra?
>

Nope. -tra is a fairly normal Indo-European suffix also found in Greek and Latin
(-tro-). It is the zero stage of the suffix -ter/-tor + the thematic vowel if I
remember correctly. You can consult Burrow's The Sanskrit Language for such details.
If in doubt, never believe what you read in popular literature, and be wary of folk
etymologies. In this case, the folk etymology is quite ancient. Thus the word skt.
putra = son was analysed as put + tra where tra was given the meaning you give above
("put-releaser"). This lead Skt. grammarians to assume that there was a Hell called
"put", because a son saves his father from hell through the performance of the
necessary rites.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jun 14 22:40:55 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 00:40:55 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
Message-ID: <161227050583.23782.1919205312123271420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
> As usual, you are applying statistics the wrong way. Why do you keep
> doing that? What <practical use> is there for us to read your
> "conclusions" that a John Doe of 6th century B.C. is less likely to have
> gone to India than a 3rd century one? People who <do> travel are not John
> Does--they are <real people>. They live their lives without any thoughts
> about social statistics. I don't see that you have any arguments
> that would prevent one <specific> scientist or even a group of <specific>
> scientists going between India and Greece in 600 BC, in 700 BC, in 800 BC,
> in 900 BC, in 1000 BC, etc, etc. Unless, of course, you think that the
> Indians were chimpanzees at the the time of 1000 BC or something, and that
> they only became humans later. If that is what you say, then I say to you:
> Prove it!

Excuse me, but I find you last sentences both stupid and offensive. As for the your
other arguments:

I do not use statistics in the wrong way. You are perfectly right that I cannot
*prove* that Greeks did not go to India in the sixth century. Now, the point of
probabilistic reasoning is precisely that you use it to deal with matters that cannot
be proved. Statistics is a method for handling uncertainty. So I'll give you my
probabilistic reasons:

First of all, statistics cannot be used to decide individual cases, only cases in the
mass. The question is therefore: What is the probability that Greeks (in any number)
went to India in the 6th century?

1) We have no material indicating that Greeks went to India in the sixth century.
    This is admittedly an argument ex nihilo. But on the other hand: Given the
considerable geographical distance through difficult territory, and the fact that the
early Greeks show no trace of knowledge of India,  in statistical parlance the null
hypothesis would be:
    H0: Greeks did not go to India in the 6th century. Consequently the stronger
hypothesis would be:
    H1: Greeks did go to India in the 6th century

As you see, unless you can prove that they DID go, you have no grounds for claiming
that they went. The burden of proof does not fall on the one who says no, but on the
one who says yes.

2. As for the later period, we know that Greeks went to India and in fact wrote books
about it. Therefore:

a) Greeks knew about India
b) Greeks went to India
c) consequently it is more probable that if Greeks went to India to learn
mathematics, they did so during the later period.

As you may have noticed, Karttunen who has written two thick volumes on Greek
knowledge of India shares my views of the relative probabilities.

In fact: when you have very little data, you are struck with probabilistic thinking.
Under such circumstances, a conservative judgement makes good sense.

As for "practical use": As far as I can see, there  is no practical use to be had
from either possibility. The difference is between showing intellectual restraint and
filling your mind with happy imaginings.

Now, please show me the "Real scientist" who went to India in the sixth century!

And by the way, can you prove that you have stopped beating your wife?

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Tue Jun 15 08:41:15 1999
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 01:41:15 -0700
Subject: !Re: Sri Aurobindo
In-Reply-To: <37638FDC.95A8A705@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050601.23782.13695184995987404211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin,

I agree.  I intentionally wrote that Dayananda "seems" to contradict himself.

Best,

Luis

>Actually, I am not sure that Dayananda really contradicts himself, he
>simply seems to have a more complex hypothesis than I assumed to begin
>with. Obviously, if the Aryans are the *first* in Aryavarta, then it
>really doesn't matter so much if they originally came from Tibet. It
>would seem that D. has made a synthesis of an obsolete European idea and
>his own need to make the Aryans the first Indians.




From yaap at XS4ALL.NL  Tue Jun 15 01:09:45 1999
From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 03:09:45 +0200
Subject: ACII, ISCII, Unicode [was: CSX+ fonts &c]
Message-ID: <161227050594.23782.2267719452301603831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Son, 13 Jun 1999, John Smith wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Jun 1999, Jaap Pranger wrote:

>> BTW, John, last year in Conv-Dev you mentioned ACII.  You said: "ACII
>> is the name used for the full 8-bit character set comprising 7-bit ASCII
>> in the lower half and 7-bit ISCII in the upper half."
>> Is this charset in use anywhere? I can't imagine reasonable Nagari
>> coming out from a 7-bit subset.
>
>It is used in all of CDAC's products (ALP for DOS, iLeap for Windows, and
>others). The output Nagari (/Bengali/Gujarati/Tamil/etc.) is extremely
>good. This is because, like Unicode, an intermediate piece of software (a
>"renderer") handles conversion from logical character to actual glyph.

Repeating your statement: CDAC's products use a context sensitive
rendering engine, which means that the number of glyphs available in the
font can be much higher than the number of encoded characters.

I venture to disagree where you say "like Unicode". The Unicode standard
only deals with character codes, and takes no care of the rendering.

Context sensitive rendering will also be available through UniScribe
(the Windows Unicode Script Processor) in Windows NT 5.0, and through
Apple's ATSUI (Apple Type Services for Unicode Imaging) in MacOS 8.5
as soon as applications taking adventage of ATSUI will arrive.

A few questions remain:

What is the meaning of the acronym ACII?

Since ISCII is an 8-bit standard, may I conclude that the 7-bit
Devanagari part of ACII is a -limited- version (subset) of ISCII?


Your information was appreciated,
Thanks,

Jaap Pranger


--




From kekai at JPS.NET  Tue Jun 15 10:55:15 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 03:55:15 -0700
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050577.23782.8684492433480399439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hans Henrich Hock wrote:
>
>
> If any of these different theories should turn out to be better
> established, this would lend credence to a migration of pre-Dravidian
> speakers into South Asia

The term "pre-Dravidian speakers" though could describe people who
came thousands or many tens of thousands of years ago to South Asia.
The time period would be important in making judgements about the
"origin" of Dravidian languages and people.

-- unless we adapt the Hindutva "Out of India"
> view (formulated for Indo-Aryan) and attribute this relationship, too, to
> an outmigration from India.

Again, the question could fall into relative dating. Folk like Talageri
(Hindutva?) don't seem to argue against the idea of people migrating
from Africa.  Their theory is concentrated more on the fact that Indian
languages have evolved in India for a very long time. They argue against
the idea of a sudden intrusion of languages into North India from the
West around 2000-1500 BCE.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala




From yaap at XS4ALL.NL  Tue Jun 15 03:07:30 1999
From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 05:07:30 +0200
Subject: CSX+ fonts & cross-platform email exchange
Message-ID: <161227050597.23782.16187676836361007299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:25:30 +0200 Jan Seifert wrote:

>=80 anyone out there with experience of the indianlangkit for mac? (and is
>there a difference between the build in kit in OS 8.5 and the langkit?)

You may find out at: <www.apple.com/macos/multilingual/indian.html>


Two recent postings from the Nisus mailing list:


*----------------------------------------------------------
* At 10:06 PM +0300 5/26/99, raymond wrote:
* >I use OS 8.6 on 6400/200 and, AFAIW, I don't use the hebrew language kit,
* >which is no more necessary since 8.5., and I write lot of hebrew.
* >
* This is true, sort of. If you have the HLK, 8.5 and 8.6 come with an
* updater which updates the various resources needed for HLK. OR you can run
* the multi-lingual internet access and select Hebrew, which does the same
* thing. If you have no HLK, you really don't need it, accept you get TWO
* (count 'em 2) fonts. The full version of HLK comes with several more fonts,
* although even these are not what you would call elegant. Bottom line: with
* 8.5 and 6 you don't need HLK, although its still for sale, if you wish all
* the fonts which come with it.
* ----------------------------------------------------------

* ----------------------------------------------------------
* Zarlengo wrote:
* > Is their an Arabic - Farsi update for Mac OS 8.6.  The fonts are not acking
* > correctly as I type!
* > D. Zarlengo, Ph.D.
* > Vice President of Information Technology & Telecommunications
*
* The following information is from Apple:
*
* * Apple language kits and Mac OS 8.6
* Apple's language kits require an updater for full functionality with Mac
* OS 8.6. If you have language kits installed on an older system you are
* updating, or if you install a language kit after installing Mac OS 8.6,
* be sure to run the Language Kit Updater, located in the CD Extras folder
* of your Mac OS 8.5 CD. This is the same version of the Language Kit
* updater for Mac OS 8.5. If you are updating from Mac OS 8.5, and have
* already updated your Language Kit, you do not need to run the Language
* Kit Updater again after updating to Mac OS 8.6.
* ------------------------------------------------------------


Jaap Pranger

--




From nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM  Tue Jun 15 16:57:54 1999
From: nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM (Nicholas Bedworth)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 06:57:54 -1000
Subject: Pindasarani tables
Message-ID: <161227050618.23782.13268615748894582355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'm looking for help in locating copies of the following works. They contain
the pindasarani 'tables of area' allow one to obtain suitable house/plot
dimensions given the nakshatra. So, presumably there must be 27 tables.
Translating the tables should be pretty simply, because most of the headings
will stay the same, but the nakshatra name will change, as will the
numerical entries in the tables.

1. Rajavallabha of Mandana Sutradhara, Ramachandra Bhagusthe Mahadeva (ed.),
Shri Satya Vinaya Printing Press, Ahmedabad, 1911.

2. Vasturatnakara, Vindyesvariprasada Dvivedi (ed.), Haridas Sanskrit Series
46, Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office, Varanasi, 1988 V ed.

3. Brihadvastumala, Comp. and ed. Ramanihora Dvivedi, Chowkhamba Surbharati
Series No. 12, Chowkhamba Surabharati publication, 1992, IV edn.

If someone would be able to locate and scan (or photocopy the pages and
mail) the relevant tables, I would be most grateful and willing to provide
reimbursement for time spent and expenses.

Nicholas Bedworth
2124 Haena Drive
Honolulu, HI 96822




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 15:47:37 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 08:47:37 -0700
Subject: Tamil and Prakrit Consonant Assimilation
Message-ID: <161227050616.23782.11276856610292363882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A. F. Sjoberg, The impact of Dravidian on Indo-Aryan, An overview,
508-529 [Polome et al., Reconstructing Languages and Cultures, 1992]
On p. 510, "In 1964 Andronov offered a list of still other areal
features that seem to have spread from Dravidian to Indo-Aryan -
e.g., the simplification of consonant clusters in Indo-Aryan in
accordance with Dravidian patterns, ..."

Can a list member provide what Andronov says about consonant cluster
simplification like Dravidian? The reference is M. Andronov,
On the typological similarity of New Indo-Aryan and Dravdian,
Indian Linguistics, 1964, 25, p. 119-126. Thanks.

Earlier, I discussed parallel examples in Skt-to-Pkt as well as in
Tamil from rm/rN to mm/nn. Prof Nachimuthu, a place name studies
authority, gave some more.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

<<<
Dr.K.Nachimuthu
Professor & Head,Department of Tamil
University of Kerala,Kariavattom-695581
Thiruvananthapuram,Kerala,India

The following are the other examples I have come across for the
above consonant assimilation in Tamil Lexicon. kannikaaram<karnikaaram;
kannikai<karinikai;
pannakam<parnakam, panna<parna, vammin<varumin etc.See for more
examples there. Even a  word kannaa "a musical instrument"is
derived from Urdu qarna.

See also the interesting examples:
karu > kan2n2aGkariya, peru > pen2n2amperiya, ciRu > cin2n2aJciRiya.
Here in the reduplicative compounds, the reduplicated parts show
a correspondance which can be traced back to the assimilation/or
dissimilation by back formation of rm or nm:

kar/kan>karum>karm>kanm>kannam-;
peru/pen>perum>perm>penm>pennam;
ciRu/cin>ciRum/cirum>cirm>cinm>cinnam.
See also the following example:kunai/konai"the sharp point or tip
of a thing'=kUrmaiyAna pakkam" with the word kUr(mai).
konai is widely used in Kongu dialect.This word has cognates in
Telugu, Kannada and Tulu.

The correspondence and assimilation may be a proto feature.
anbuDan K.Nachimuthu >>>


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From svadchi at AGF.FR  Tue Jun 15 07:33:08 1999
From: svadchi at AGF.FR (svadchi)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 09:33:08 +0200
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050599.23782.499530365253490040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

About Yima you can find much stuff in Dumezil's Mythe et Epopee II (Types
epiques indo-europeens : un heros, un sorcier, un roi). The third part of
the book studies kings  Yayaati, Yima and Eochaid Feidleich.

Jean-Claude Svadchii


-------------------------------------------------------------
>Date:    Sat, 12 Jun 1999 23:11:02 -0400
>From:    Balaji Hebbar <bhebbar at EROLS.COM>
>Subject: Jamshid

>Dear  Indologists  specializing  in  Indo-Iranian  studies:

>In  my  understanding,  the  Vedic  Yama  equals  the  Avestan  Yima.
>Please  tell  me  if,  later  on,  this  Yima  becomes  Jamshid  in
>Pahlavi  period?

>Also,  did  the  Vedic  Aryans  at  any  point  "curse"  Ahura  Mazda
>as  the  greatest  Asura  as  the  Avestans  did  the  devas/daevas?

>Many  thanks  in  advance  for  all  corrections  and  clarifications.

>Regards,
>B.N.Hebbar




From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Tue Jun 15 08:45:52 1999
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 09:45:52 +0100
Subject: ACII, ISCII, Unicode [was: CSX+ fonts &c]
In-Reply-To: <l0313030db38b580c3c09@[194.109.128.34]>
Message-ID: <161227050604.23782.18127407901054661598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Jaap Pranger wrote:

> ...
>
> I venture to disagree where you say "like Unicode". The Unicode standard
> only deals with character codes, and takes no care of the rendering.

Sure. What I wrote was shorthand for "like any real-world Unicode
implementation".

>
> Context sensitive rendering will also be available through UniScribe
> (the Windows Unicode Script Processor) in Windows NT 5.0,

This was news to me. Is there any indication of when an Indian-language
renderer might appear?

>
> A few questions remain:
>
> What is the meaning of the acronym ACII?

"Alphabetic Code for Information Interchange".

>
> Since ISCII is an 8-bit standard, may I conclude that the 7-bit
> Devanagari part of ACII is a -limited- version (subset) of ISCII?

No, ISCII is a 7-bit standard. The first sentence of the published
standard (IS 13194: 1991) runs, "The ISCII code specifies a 7-bit code
table which can be used in 7 or 8-bit ISO compatible environment." Also
note that ISCII is not restricted to Devanagari: it can represent any
Brahmi-derived Indian script. It is quite an experience to see an aged
MS-DOS computer effortlessly "converting" an on-screen piece of Indian
text into script after script using CDAC's old product ALP (now available
as ALPP -- ALP Personal -- for free download from their website).

John Smith

--
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Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 17:00:55 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 10:00:55 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050623.23782.6938386089691945545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I agree with Edwin. Only after the Brits, advaita grew in a popular
level to suit the nationalist agendas. Advaita's rise can be seen
in one example: Kanchi Kamakoti Math. This math seems to have
origins only in the Tanjore Maratha (British) period. Despite claims
to a hoary past, no old mention anywhere! Centered in Kumbakonam
for the last two centuries and it recently shifted to Kanchipuram,
so that folks, esp. Smartas, can have a quick visit from Madras.
Now, works on Kanchi math by Westerners give strength/legitimacy for
the Math's growth.

As far as Tamil works, Saiva Siddhantam and Sri Vaishnavism
are only ancient. May be, TattuvarAyar (17/18th century),
Pirabodha Candrodayam's translation (18th cent.), kaivalya
navaneetham are the only advaita works in Tamil compared
to several 100 times of Saiva Siddhanta and Sri Vaishnava
works.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 18:01:05 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 11:01:05 -0700
Subject: Original Dravidian Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050634.23782.9136140160228679005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 > I (being a Hungarian speaker) thought over the suggested connection
 >between Dravidian and Finno-Ugoric languages. The idea is correct,
 >not too naive, but very far from proven.

See Elli Marlow, More on the Uralo-Dravidian relationship: A
comparison of Uralic and Dravidian etymological vocabularies, PhD
thesis, UTexas, Austin, 1974 [Advisor: A. F. Sjoberg]

Sjoberg, The Dravidian contribution to the Development of Indian
civilization: A call for a Reassessment,
Comparative civilizations review, 23, Fall 1990, p. 40-74,
On p. 47 "[Dravidian] languages may be connected with Elamite,
which was once spoken in the area of present-day Iran. However
there is stronger evidence  linking the Dravidian languages with
Uralic in northern Asia (an parts of Europe) and to some extent
Altaic in central and eastern Asia. Caldwell advanced this thesis in
1856, but it was not taken seriously for more than a century. Then a
few scholars began to add to the data, and in the past decade or two
the theory has truly been revived. In 1968 Tyler listed some important
Dravidian-Uralic cognates in root words. But the salient work in this
field is the unpublished dissertation of Marlow (1974), who presented
data that are powerful enough to bring many skeptics around to this
view. Trained in Dravidian languages she was also a native speaker
of Finnish who was able to make extensive use of the Etymological
Dictionary of Uralic, which is in the Finnish langauge. She then
systematically  compared the root words therein with those in
Burrow and Emeneau's A Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (and
Supplement) (1961, 1968). Tyler (1986) in a recent unpublished paper
seems persuaded by Marlow's data. And he speaks of " an unbroken
chain of interconnected cultures stretching from Central Asia
to Central India" If correct, this would reduce the importance
of the geographic distance between Dravidian and Uralic as the main
stumbling block to acceptance of the possibility of relationship
between the two linguistic groups".

Sometime in 1998, Arthur Karp wrote about Dr. Jan Braun, Professor
Emeritus from the Ancient Studies Dept., U. of Warsaw who worked
on the genetic relationship between Elamite and Dravidian.
May be Dr. Braun from Poland can be persuaded to publish his findings.

Regards,
N. Ganesan






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From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 15 18:29:00 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 11:29:00 -0700
Subject: word-final "-am" in the Iranian branch
Message-ID: <161227050640.23782.5578468232163122293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is the final -am as common in the Iranian branch as it is in Skt.?


Regards
Chandra
>...............
> >
> > Yes, but Sanskrit is an Indian language.  Maybe it would be more
> > relevant if -am was a common ending for IE nouns.
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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 19:29:33 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 12:29:33 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050650.23782.16546775784915874980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>As far as Tamil works, Saiva Siddhantam and Sri Vaishnavism
>are only ancient. May be, TattuvarAyar (17/18th century),
>Pirabodha Candrodayam's translation (18th cent.), kaivalya
>navaneetham are the only advaita works in Tamil compared
>to several 100 times of Saiva Siddhanta and Sri Vaishnava
>works.

Perhaps, but this may simply be due to the preference for Sanskrit when it
comes to composing works. Certainly, the influence of Advaita was seen in
Tamil country from very early times, and it was not restricted to Smarta
Brahmins. From more recent times, we have the Koviloor Math
(www.koviloor-madalayam.org), established and maintained totally by
non-Brahmins till the present day. The founder was from the Nagarattar
community, and his guru was a weaver (caste?). The motivations behind this
institution seem purely religious, with no political agenda.

Vidyasankar


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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 19:53:09 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 12:53:09 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050656.23782.6573954379729994806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

KovilUr Matt is very recent. The volume of advaita works
is tiny in Tamil and their dates are pretty recent.

Regards.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>As far as Tamil works, Saiva Siddhantam and Sri Vaishnavism
>are only ancient. May be, TattuvarAyar (17/18th century),
>Pirabodha Candrodayam's translation (18th cent.), kaivalya
>navaneetham are the only advaita works in Tamil compared
>to several 100 times of Saiva Siddhanta and Sri Vaishnava
>works.

Perhaps, but this may simply be due to the preference for Sanskrit when it
comes to composing works. Certainly, the influence of Advaita was seen in
Tamil country from very early times, and it was not restricted to Smarta
Brahmins. From more recent times, we have the Koviloor Math
(www.koviloor-madalayam.org), established and maintained totally by
non-Brahmins till the present day. The founder was from the Nagarattar
community, and his guru was a weaver (caste?). The motivations behind this
institution seem purely religious, with no political agenda.

Vidyasankar


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From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU  Tue Jun 15 11:00:35 1999
From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 13:00:35 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
Message-ID: <161227050607.23782.8359846221866319667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friends,

as the corpus of Greek texts is unfortunately pretty much closed by now, the
old (1925) analysis of Keith (The Religion and Philosophy of the Veda and
Upanishads. Vol II., esp. pp. 605-10) is still valuable. (His conclusion is
negative.)

On the other hand there is nothing inherently improbable in Greek-Indian
contacts in e.g. the 6th century B.C.E. The Greeks were very mobile traders
(and colonizers), and trade routes did exist much before that time. It must
have been not very difficult for a Greek, an Old Persian and a Sanskrit
speaker to learn each other's language.
There is some tradition of contacts before Alexander (e.g. Socrates talking
to Indian philosophers in Athens), but they are not too reliable. The lack
of data does not prove anything, as we have generally very meagre
information about the most important characters in the history of early
Greek philosophy. Only scant and typically late references.

Yours,
Ferenc




From bhebbar at EROLS.COM  Tue Jun 15 17:07:08 1999
From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 13:07:08 -0400
Subject: Hindu  Nationalism  &  Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050626.23782.12766032451069990153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear  Indologists:

I  definately  agree  with  the  views  of  many  writers  here  that
Advaita  VedAnta  has  a  philosophy  conducive  to  BharatIya
Nationanalism  (of  both  the  Congress  and  the  BJP  types).  Even  a
Dvaitin  agreed  with  this.  Let  me  narrate  something  that
happened  more  than  a  quarter  of  a  century  ago:

I  along  with  one  of  my  teachers,  the  late  Dr. P.Nagaraja  Rao
(a  MAdhva,  a  student  of  Dr.S.Radhakrishnan  and  Former  Tagore
Prof. of  Humanities  at  Univ. of  Madras)  had  gone  to  Bombay  to
attend  a  vidvat  sadas.  Afterwards,  we  paid  a  courtesy  call  to
the  late  Shri  R.R. Divakar  (a  MAdhva,  for  a  long  time  the  #2
man  in  the  Bharatiya  Vidya  Bhavan  after  K.M.Munshi).  I  remember
the  conversation  between  the  2  learned  gentlemen  vividly.

Dr  Rao:  You  have  gone  over  to  the  other  side  (meaning
Advaita)  completely,  haven't  you?

Shri  Divakar:  Well.  I  am  still  a  MAdhva  at  heart.  But,  Dr.
Rao,  Advaita  represents  National  Unity  better  which  is  what  we
are  trying  to  do  here  at  the  Bhavan.  Our  great  leaders,
Gandhi,  Nehru,  Patel  and  others  fought  long  and  hard  for  the
freedom  of  our  motherland.  It  is  our  duty  to  make  sure  that
the  unity  and  independence  of  our  land  is  preserved.  Hostile
forces  are  always  waiting  around  the  corner  to  take  advantage
of  any  indication  of  weakness  on  our  side.  I  just  do  not
want  the  words  of  Winston  Churchill (said  at  the  time  of
India's  Independence  even  tho'  Atlee  was  PM  then)  to  come
true:  "We  are  handing  over  power  to  the  men  of  straw  of  whom
nothing  will  be  heard  of  in  a  few  years  time."

Dr. Rao:  Yes,  that's  true!

I  know  my  Advaitin  friends  are  beaming  with  delight!  It's  your
day  enjoy  it  while  you  can!  I'll  take  you  to  task  later!
(just  joking!)  Take  it  easy!

Thanks  for  reading.
Regards,
B.N.Hebbar




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 20:19:54 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 13:19:54 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050660.23782.12594698657373808394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Weaterners popularizing Gita, Advaita and Sankara really stuck.
Look at Sankara's popularity with that of Abhinava Gupta.
Abhinava who created new fields in Sanskrit with theories/commentaries
on rasa/natya/dhvany/kashmir saivism etc., remains closeted
in a small circle. But, Sankara fills in well for nationlist/political
agendas.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


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From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Tue Jun 15 17:27:24 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 13:27:24 -0400
Subject: Pindasarani tables
Message-ID: <161227050631.23782.12019117658621879086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nicholas Bedworth wrote:
>
> I'm looking for help in locating copies of the following works.
I have already emailed you the translation.

> Translating the tables should be pretty simply, because most of the headings
> will stay the same, but the nakshatra name will change, as will the

It is intellectually easily but takes a lot of manual effort to enter
the values in the table format and to insure that they fill the correct
spot.


Have a peaceful and joyous day.

Aditya Mishra
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
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From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU  Tue Jun 15 11:32:24 1999
From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 13:32:24 +0200
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050610.23782.13737183667952891227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hans Henrich Hock wrote:
> we have to turn to those who trace the dispersal of homo
> sapiens for possible answers as to the origin of the different South Asian
> phenotypes.  (Here, the most widely accepted theory argues for an African
> origin of all human beings.)


To avoid misunderstandings: the African origin of Homo sapiens is on a
different time-scale from the supposed immigration of Dravidians. The
dispersal could happen more than a hundred thousand years ago, and even
modern man (H. sapiens sapiens) was in Europe before 30 000 BCE. And,
considering the speed of linguistic change, we cannot meaningfully talk of
any language family before ca. 8 000 BCE. (I joust doubled the period we
have some knowledge of.)

I (being a Hungarian speaker) thought over the suggested connection between
Dravidian and Finno-Ugoric languages. The idea is correct, not too naive,
but very far from proven.

Yours,
Ferenc




From cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM  Tue Jun 15 20:03:21 1999
From: cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 14:03:21 -0600
Subject: hayragreva
Message-ID: <161227050629.23782.4476631657762221888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,
I am looking for references to hayragreva (spelling?) the horse headed demon
and the Vishnu avatar of the same name/appearance.  Any suggestions as to
sources I could look into either visual (i.e., temple engravings, etc.) or
textual (translations or source materials)?
Regards,
Benjamin Fleming




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 21:20:35 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 14:20:35 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050667.23782.8511536003955268457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N.Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>Weaterners popularizing Gita, Advaita and Sankara really stuck.
>Look at Sankara's popularity with that of Abhinava Gupta.
>Abhinava who created new fields in Sanskrit with theories/commentaries
>on rasa/natya/dhvany/kashmir saivism etc., remains closeted
>in a small circle. But, Sankara fills in well for nationlist/political
>agendas.

Well, if you look at the contemporary scene, there is lot more Western
interest in Abhinavagupta and Tantric studies than in Sankara and Vedanta.
Tantra with its traditional concern with power will also fill in quite
admirably for political purposes. It remains to be seen how Indians
re-appropriate Abhinavagupta.

Regards,
Vidyasankar


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From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Jun 15 18:20:59 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 14:20:59 -0400
Subject: Pindasarani tables
Message-ID: <161227050637.23782.12063869943131899950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nicholas Bedworth asked about these titles:


1. Rajavallabha of Mandana Sutradhara, Ramachandra Bhagusthe Mahadeva
(ed.),
Shri Satya Vinaya Printing Press, Ahmedabad, 1911.

The Library of Congress, and according to OCLC many other US
libraries, have the following bilingual eds., but not the one you
mention:

72-907155

Sutradharamandana, 16th cent.

  {Rajavallabha. Gujarati & Sanskrit}

  Rajavallabha ; athava, Silapasastra : junam pustako uparathi

taiyara kari silpakama samajava iccha rakhanara mate (sacitra) /

Gujaratimam bhashantarakarta Patanana Narayanabharati

Yasavantabharati Gosamie, Sastri Mahasukharama Naranaji, ane

Himmatavijayji Kasturavijayani madadavade taiyara karelum te.

Amadavada : Mahadeva Ramacandra Jagushte, 1965.  16, 240 p. ; 25 cm.

LC CALL NUMBER: NA7427 .S9615  <Orien Guj>

SUBJECTS:

  Architecture, Domestic--India.

OTHER NAMES:

  Gosami, Narayanabharati Yasvantabharati.

OTHER TITLES:

  Silpasastra.

96-903444
Sutradhara Mandana, 16th cent.
  {Vasturajavallabha. Hindi & Sanskrit}
  Vasturajavallabhah / Mandanasutradharaviracito ; Ramayatnasarma
krta Hindi-tikasahitah ; Anupamisrena pathantaradibhih
samsodhya sampaditah.  Varanasi : Mastara Khelarilala, 1996.
4, 8, 8, 30, 239 p. : ill. ; 19 cm.
LC CALL NUMBER: BF1729.A7 S8815 1996  <Orien Hind>
SUBJECTS:
  Astrology and architecture.
  Domestic architecture--India.
  Hindu astrology.
OTHER NAMES:
  Misra, Anupa.
OTHER TITLES:
  Vasturaja vallabhah


It also has these other two works by him on architecture (plus a
couple on iconometry).  I do not know whether these are really
separate works.


78-903760: Sutradharamandana, 16th century.  Vastusara = Vastusar

     1976.  12, 75 p. : ill. ; 26 cm.

     LC CALL NUMBER: NA1501 .S815


85-909935: Sutradharamandana, 16th cent.  Prasadamandanam

     {microform} /  Srinagar : Research Dept., Jammu and Kashmir
Govt., 1947.
     43 p. ; 21 cm.

     LC CALL NUMBER: Microfiche 90/61320 (N)  <So Asia>



These can all be obtained by interlibrary loan.
















2. Vasturatnakara, Vindyesvariprasada Dvivedi (ed.), Haridas Sanskrit
Series
46, Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office, Varanasi, 1988 V ed.

This is in LC and other libraries, including the University of
Hawaii:

 77-903500:   Vasturatnakarah : ahibalacakrasahitah : satippana

   Hindivyakhyavibhusitah /  4. samskarana.  Varanasi :

   Caukhamba Samskrta Sirija Aphisa, 1977.  15, 147, 58 p. : ill. ;
22
   cm.

   LC CALL NUMBER: BF1729.A7 V37 1974  <Orien Sans>





3. Brihadvastumala, Comp. and ed. Ramanihora Dvivedi, Chowkhamba
Surbharati
Series No. 12, Chowkhamba Surabharati publication, 1992, IV edn.

LC and a number of other libraries have this ed.:

sa68-13170
Dwivedi, Ramnihor, 1893-1958.

  Brhadvastumala. Sriramnihora Dvivedena sangrahita-tainaiva Hindibh

asyanuvadita ca. Srira{ma}yatna Sarmmana samsodhita.

Misropanamaka-jyautisacarya Sriramananda Sarmmna tippanyadibhih

samalangkrta.  2. samskarana.  Varanasi, Ramakanta Dvivedi, sam.

2018 {1961 or 2}  2, 202 p. port. 22 cm.

LC CALL NUMBER: BF1714.H5 D8  <Orien Hind>

SUBJECTS:

  Hindu astrology.

OTHER NAMES:

  Sharma, Ramyatna.

  Misra, Ramananda Sarmma.

NOTES:

  Hindi and Sanskrit; introductory matter in Hindi.




Hope this helps.

Allen Thrasher




Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 21:31:51 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 14:31:51 -0700
Subject: Hindu Nationalism & Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050671.23782.10929790062306131096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Balaji Hebbar <bhebbar at EROLS.COM> wrote:

>
>I  definately  agree  with  the  views  of  many  writers  here  that
>Advaita  VedAnta  has  a  philosophy  conducive  to  BharatIya
>Nationanalism  (of  both  the  Congress  and  the  BJP  types).

I beg to differ. What was more important for nationalistic purposes was not
really the philosophy of advaita vedAnta but the hagiographical personality
of Sankara. Read Nehru's comments about Sankara in The Discovery of India.
The tradition of his establishing maThas in the four directions was seen as
his having recognized India as one entity many centuries ago. This provided
an answer to the colonialist's contention that India fundamentally lacked a
cohesiveness and that this had to be imposed upon the country by foreign
rulers. It certainly helped that the tradition was a very old one. All this
has little to do with the philosophy per se. In fact, Nehru comes across as
having little patience for the nivRtti oriented monk. All his admiration is
reserved for the pravRtti oriented figure presented in legendary stories.

Vidyasankar


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From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Jun 15 18:43:59 1999
From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 14:43:59 -0400
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
In-Reply-To: <007d01beb6d6$aff3ce40$6cefaccf@ramakris>
Message-ID: <161227050642.23782.14233618448830398680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote:

> I agree that sha.nkara's system has been studied disproportionately
> more than the other systems. However, I think the early British had an
> important reason for studying sha.nkara more than others. The systems
> of Ramanuja and Madhva are more or less restricted to Tamil Nadu and
> Karnataka respectively (with some small strongholds elsewhere).

Yes, but they had significant influence on other,
visistha/dvaitadvaita/bhedabheda/suddhadvaita type ontological expressions
such as those that surfaced in the Bengal/Vrindavan Gaudiya school
(Bengal/Orissa/Assam), the Nimbarki's of Vraj, the Ramanandi's (who are
very visible up North, especially in UP), the Pusti Marga continuation of
Visnusavami (GUjarat/Rajasthan/Bombay), and even later sects such as the
Swami Narayana's (who are very active in Gujarat and the diaspora).

All in all, in addition to the Tamil Nadu and Karnataka of Ramanuja and
Madhva, permutations and variations of saguna Brahman belief systems (who
were very consciously opposed to Sankara)  manifested over almost the
entire subcontinent. So philosophical (as opposed to popular) Vaishnavism
is just as widespread as advaita and neo-advaita.  And then, of course,
there are the Saiva schools which, with one or two exceptions, were less
concerned with alligning themselves with the Up/Gita/Vedantic commentarial
traditions but were by no means all in line with advaitavad: saiva
Siddhanta is obviously relevant, but even the Siva/Shakti monism of Kasmir
Saivism seems to have more in common with the ontologies of the above
Vaisnavite sects than with the radical monism of Sankara.....

Sri Vidyasankara's point that all these groups had to define themselves to
a great extent viz-a-viz Sankara is well taken; one can certainly not
minimize or by-pass the tremendous influence of the man himself.  Yet
there are surely other factors at play in the *EXCESSIVE* prioritization
of his system (and the later neo-systems it spawned) in modern
representations of Indic Philosophy to the almost total neglect of the
other Vedantic systems.  These systems were by no means just localized or
regionalized expressions if taken together as a basic category of saguna
Brahman (with lots of subcategories).  Edwin Bryant




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 21:47:00 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 14:47:00 -0700
Subject: Hindu Nationalism & Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050674.23782.13537152505636689764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While on the subject, may I also point out one more thing? The Hindutva
brand of nationalism owes very little to advaita philosophy or to
contemporary advaitins. Those who think otherwise should perhaps interview
the Madhva, Ramanandi and Gorakhpanthi monks who are at the forefront of the
Masjid-Mandir controversy and other VHP activities today.

Vidyasankar


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From klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA  Tue Jun 15 18:56:30 1999
From: klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Bo Klintberg)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 14:56:30 -0400
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
In-Reply-To: <376584F7.3BED1AD7@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050645.23782.11980051374379018024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Lars Martin Fosse:

This is just a short letter to tell you that I am <truly> sorry if I have
<personally> offended you. I thought that I just scrutinized some
argumenents that potentially I thought were yours. Once again, I am truly
sorry if I in any way disturbed or offended your person.

That doesn't, however, mean that I like your way of doing statistics. I
still don't. :-)

greetings from a sunny, but chilly Toronto.
Bo Klintberg.


On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> >
> > As usual, you are applying statistics the wrong way. Why do you keep
> > doing that? What <practical use> is there for us to read your
> > "conclusions" that a John Doe of 6th century B.C. is less likely to have
> > gone to India than a 3rd century one? People who <do> travel are not John
> > Does--they are <real people>. They live their lives without any thoughts
> > about social statistics. I don't see that you have any arguments
> > that would prevent one <specific> scientist or even a group of <specific>
> > scientists going between India and Greece in 600 BC, in 700 BC, in 800 BC,
> > in 900 BC, in 1000 BC, etc, etc. Unless, of course, you think that the
> > Indians were chimpanzees at the the time of 1000 BC or something, and that
> > they only became humans later. If that is what you say, then I say to you:
> > Prove it!
>
> Excuse me, but I find you last sentences both stupid and offensive. As for the your
> other arguments:
>
> I do not use statistics in the wrong way. You are perfectly right that I cannot
> *prove* that Greeks did not go to India in the sixth century. Now, the point of
> probabilistic reasoning is precisely that you use it to deal with matters that cannot
> be proved. Statistics is a method for handling uncertainty. So I'll give you my
> probabilistic reasons:
>
> First of all, statistics cannot be used to decide individual cases, only cases in the
> mass. The question is therefore: What is the probability that Greeks (in any number)
> went to India in the 6th century?
>
> 1) We have no material indicating that Greeks went to India in the sixth century.
>     This is admittedly an argument ex nihilo. But on the other hand: Given the
> considerable geographical distance through difficult territory, and the fact that the
> early Greeks show no trace of knowledge of India,  in statistical parlance the null
> hypothesis would be:
>     H0: Greeks did not go to India in the 6th century. Consequently the stronger
> hypothesis would be:
>     H1: Greeks did go to India in the 6th century
>
> As you see, unless you can prove that they DID go, you have no grounds for claiming
> that they went. The burden of proof does not fall on the one who says no, but on the
> one who says yes.
>
> 2. As for the later period, we know that Greeks went to India and in fact wrote books
> about it. Therefore:
>
> a) Greeks knew about India
> b) Greeks went to India
> c) consequently it is more probable that if Greeks went to India to learn
> mathematics, they did so during the later period.
>
> As you may have noticed, Karttunen who has written two thick volumes on Greek
> knowledge of India shares my views of the relative probabilities.
>
> In fact: when you have very little data, you are struck with probabilistic thinking.
> Under such circumstances, a conservative judgement makes good sense.
>
> As for "practical use": As far as I can see, there  is no practical use to be had
> from either possibility. The difference is between showing intellectual restraint and
> filling your mind with happy imaginings.
>
> Now, please show me the "Real scientist" who went to India in the sixth century!
>
> And by the way, can you prove that you have stopped beating your wife?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lars Martin Fosse
>




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 21:57:03 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 14:57:03 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050675.23782.14105107256735565611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N.Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>Westerners popularizing Gita, Advaita and Sankara really stuck.
>Look at Sankara's popularity with that of Abhinava Gupta.
>Abhinava who created new fields in Sanskrit with theories/commentaries
>on rasa/natya/dhvany/kashmir saivism etc., remains closeted
>in a small circle. But, Sankara fills in well for nationalist/political
>agendas.

<<<
Well, if you look at the contemporary scene, there is lot more Western
interest in Abhinavagupta and Tantric studies than in Sankara and
Vedanta. Tantra with its traditional concern with power will also fill
in quite admirably for political purposes. It remains to be seen how
Indians re-appropriate Abhinavagupta. >>>

Well, the hope is Westerners should pave the way for things
Dravidian to be recognized as important in the formation of India.
Eg., in IVC. Then, it is only natural that Indian recognition will
follow suit.

Regards.




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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 22:21:48 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 15:21:48 -0700
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050680.23782.4106403931160882913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Madhuresan,

Could you list some (5 would be sufficient) contradictions in Dr. Frawley's
works for my benefit?

Thank you in advance,

Vishal
______________


Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:48:46 -0700
From:         Swaminathan Madhuresan <smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Jamshid
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Dear Toke,

Don't take David Frawley seriously. Most of his writings
is garbage and with several contradictions, though he has
good support from the Hindutva folks. This will become clear
as you spend years studying old India.

Best wishes,
SM


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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 22:29:16 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 15:29:16 -0700
Subject: Looking for a book
Message-ID: <161227050682.23782.66264168668650425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could anyone let me know if any copy of this book exists in the United
States?

Bharadvajavrttibhasya on the Vaiseshika sutras; Gangadhar Kaviratna Kaviraja
(or Gangadhar Rai); Calcutta; 1869 (or 1870); Published by the Baptist
Missionary Press (Serampore)

The India Office Library at London had a copy but the same is presumably
lost.

Thanks in advance,

Vishal


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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 15 23:17:13 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 16:17:13 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050684.23782.423141498576303187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N.Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>Well, the hope is Westerners should pave the way for things
>Dravidian to be recognized as important in the formation of India.
>Eg., in IVC. Then, it is only natural that Indian recognition will
>follow suit.

I can only say that you are either being overly optimistic or overestimating
the influence of Western scholarship over the minds of Indians or both. IVC
= Dravidian has been the basic paradigm of Western scholarship for many
decades now. It seems to have bred only resentment, not acceptance, in many
Indian circles.

Vidyasankar


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From fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE  Tue Jun 15 15:48:29 1999
From: fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 16:48:29 +0100
Subject: looking for article
In-Reply-To: <3764AF8B.7CE5D4BB@univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <161227050613.23782.16688634115597285437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My thanks to George Cardona and Allen Thrasher for responding to a query
about my article. Both were quicker in thinking than me/I as they usually
are.

(Maybe, I would rather forget what I wrote in the past.)

I do not have a reprint of my article here with me. I will send a copy to
Birgit Kellner when I am back in Vancouver if Allen Thrasher's does not
reach her before that.

I was not given an opportunity to read the proofs of the article but my
recollection is that there were no major mistakes in printing.

 -- ashok aklujkar


Ref:
>Ashok Aklujkar: 'Praamaa.nya in the philosophy of the grammarians',
>Studies in Indology:
>Professor Rasik Vihari Joshi Felicitation Volume ..., Delhi: Shree
>Publishing House, 1988-1989, pp. 15-28.




From Sfauthor at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 15 20:53:41 1999
From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 16:53:41 -0400
Subject: Why are we so far behind?
Message-ID: <161227050662.23782.11575509319890000625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I recently received a catalog that contained the following product:

Hermeneutika BibleWorks 4.0 on CD-ROM. $595 list price; $350 street price.

"There are 58 Bible translations in 20 languages (e.g., NRSV with Apocrypha,
Spanish, German, French), 9 original language texts with 7 morphology
databases, 5 Greek lexicons and dictionaries, 3 Hebrew lexicons and
dictionaries, plus 8 practical reference works. . . . There are also
multi-text synchronous interlinears, parallel display modes, an auto-parser,
an auto-lexicon, and a new, more sophisticated second-generation search
engine . . ."

Does Indology have anything even remotely like this? Why not? Are there
simply too few of us?

Of course, I can think of many commercial and financial reasons, but I'm also
wondering about the field's priorities. Is it in the best interests of the
field as a whole to produce innumerable highly-specialized journal articles
and neglect basic work like this? Could resources be re-allocated within
existing funding levels? Or am I the only one who finds the current situation
odd and unsatisfactory?

Looking forward to other's opinions.

Brian


--------------------
Brian Dana Akers
www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/
sfauthor at aol.com




From thompson at JLC.NET  Tue Jun 15 21:20:55 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 17:20:55 -0400
Subject: word-final "-am" in the Iranian branch
In-Reply-To: <19990615182900.16967.rocketmail@web705.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227050669.23782.11397379989244178939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Well, if you were to take a look at Avestan and Old Persian, you would find
word-final -Em [in Avestan*] or -am [in Old Persian] at the same places
where you would find word final -am in Sanskrit. Thus:

acc. sg. of masc. -a stems
nom. /acc. sg. of neut. -a stems
ditto of consonant stems
ditto of present participles
in personal pronouns and in demonstrative pronouns
1st pers sg. of secondary endings of verbs

etc.

* [note that capital E here stands for inverted e, schwa, which represents
the regular Avestan phonological realization of inherited -a before m and n]

Hope that helps,

GT

At 11:29 AM 6/15/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>Is the final -am as common in the Iranian branch as it is in Skt.?
>
>
>Regards
>Chandra
>>...............
>> >
>> > Yes, but Sanskrit is an Indian language.  Maybe it would be more
>> > relevant if -am was a common ending for IE nouns.
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>




From nsalmond at CCS.CARLETON.CA  Tue Jun 15 21:48:08 1999
From: nsalmond at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Noel Salmond)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 17:48:08 -0400
Subject: hayragreva
In-Reply-To: <E10twcG-0000nT-00@mailhub2.liv.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227050678.23782.9793958311667690955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:03 PM 6/15/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Dear list members,
>I am looking for references to hayragreva (spelling?) the horse headed demon
>and the Vishnu avatar of the same name/appearance.  Any suggestions as to
>sources I could look into either visual (i.e., temple engravings, etc.) or
>textual (translations or source materials)?
>Regards,
>Benjamin Fleming
>

I believe there is a very recent Ph.D dissertation on Hayagriiva by Kamala
Nayar of McGill University, Montreal.
regards

Noel Salmond
Carleton University
Ottawa, Canada




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun 15 16:59:15 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 18:59:15 +0200
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050621.23782.13310270891514085257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Ferenc wrote:

>
> I (being a Hungarian speaker) thought over the suggested connection between
> Dravidian and Finno-Ugoric languages. The idea is correct, not too naive,
> but very far from proven.

Bernard Sergent deals with the theory in his latest book Genese de l'Inde. In
simple terms, the theory goes like this: The Dravidians, on their way from
Africa, stayed in the area between India and the Middle East for some time
(Central Asia). Here, a branch of them encountered Uralian (or Finno-Ugric)
speakers, which account for certain similarities between the two languages
families. In other words: Area linguistics. Others claim a genetic relationship,
which Sergent faithfully considers before rejecting it. See for instance
Sergent, p. 65-80, where he discusses various aspects of this theory. (Sergent
assumes that the Dravidians reached India before the eighth millennium BCE).

Lars Martin Fosse




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Tue Jun 15 23:28:46 1999
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 19:28:46 -0400
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050686.23782.2459326892829899874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Edwin Bryant <ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

> > I agree that sha.nkara's system has been studied
disproportionately
> > more than the other systems. However, I think the early British
had an
> > important reason for studying sha.nkara more than others. The
systems
> > of Ramanuja and Madhva are more or less restricted to Tamil Nadu
and
> > Karnataka respectively (with some small strongholds elsewhere).
>
> Yes, but they had significant influence on other,
> visistha/dvaitadvaita/bhedabheda/suddhadvaita type ontological
expressions
> such as those that surfaced in the Bengal/Vrindavan Gaudiya school

Certainly, all schools influenced each other. My point was that the
Westerners would have seen more advaitins among scholars, and that too
spread out all over India. Surely, that would have played at least
some role in the British paying more attention to the advaita school?
Hacker's pioneering studies of advaita were not based on political
considerations. He made it quite clear that he wanted to study the
system in order to more efficiently proselytise Indians, or "dialog"
as he calls it. Obviously, it would make more sense to study the
system of the person who found the most acceptance among Indians.

Rama




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun 15 18:57:53 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 20:57:53 +0200
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050648.23782.17070967410649473824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> > >
> > > -tra means "to release" as in the word "mantra" being something
> > > that "sets free the mind (mana)."  Also this is found in the word
> > > ksatriya.  Does the word "astra" (weapon) coming from "throw,
> > > release" refer to the releasing of a mantra?
> > >
> >
> > Nope. -tra is a fairly normal Indo-European suffix also found
> > in Greek and Latin
> > (-tro-). It is the zero stage of the suffix -ter/-tor + the
> > thematic vowel if I
> > remember correctly.

"Chandrasekaran, Periannan" wrote:

>
> Could you give some examples of such  Latin/Greek please?

OK. But let me start with Hittite. Hittite has the action noun suffix
-tar. Traces of this suffix is found in Vedic (see Burrows, p. 118ff).
The suffix is then given the thematic vowel while loosing its guna vowel,
producing -tra-. In skt. you will find the suffix in nouns like: atra
(food), kartra (spell), vastra (garment), shrotra (hearing), suutra
(tread) and mantra (which has been discussed recently on this list). In
Latin you have aratrum (plow) and feretrum (?). I can only give one Greek
word: metron (me = skt. maa = measure). I am quite certain that there are
more words in Greek and Latin with the suffix, but I haven't got the
dictionaries I need to check this. However, if you look up a reverse
Latin or Greek dictionary (I believe they exist) you should be able to
find the relevant words quite quickly (look for words ending in -tron or
-trum). Sorry I haven't got more to offer.

Lars Martin




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun 15 19:36:22 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 21:36:22 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
Message-ID: <161227050653.23782.15338371085047065545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bo Klintberg wrote:

> Dear Lars Martin Fosse:
>
> This is just a short letter to tell you that I am <truly> sorry if I have
> <personally> offended you. I thought that I just scrutinized some
> argumenents that potentially I thought were yours. Once again, I am truly
> sorry if I in any way disturbed or offended your person.
>
> That doesn't, however, mean that I like your way of doing statistics. I
> still don't. :-)

I disliked your argument about chimpanzees, which seemed to indicate that I had rather
primitive ideas about Indians. However, you are forgiven.

Now, my statistical views have to do with a certain kind of inferential logic that is used
extensively in the humanities, in politics and in law. I think a debate along such lines
would be interesting, and I invite you to such a debate. I'll promise to be serious, and
not make nasty remarks. My interest in this matter was stimulated by my reading of more
Indo-European homeland studies (both European and Indian) than any man should have to read
in his life. It struck me that much of the reasoning in cases where data are scanty is
based on analogy, or if you like, paradigmatic thinking. Because certain data (or
combinations of data) are associated with certain other things according to experience, the
data are interpreted along the same lines. In the homeland context, for instance, the
Indo-Aryan migration into India was a couple of generations ago seen as an invasion of
warlike tribes, overrunning and destroying the Harappan civilization. This was analogous to
for instance the situation in the late Roman empire. We know today that this interpretation
is wrong, and that there are other models or analogies available, so that the modalities of
the intrusion of Indo-Aryans into India can be interpreted in other ways. This leads me to
a more general consideration:

Assume that the phenomenon A always is accompanied by the phenomenon B. Then we have an
ironclad rule, and we know that whenever we find A, we have B as well (if B is not
physically present any more, we must assume that it once was). Then consider the following
situation:

A is accompanied by B in 50 % of the cases
                            by C in 25% of the cases
and                       by D in 25% of the cases.

Now if you find A (and only A), you have to make a choice between B, C and D. Since we have
statistics based on experience, the most likely candidate to accompany A is B, but both C
and D are possible. In other words, finding A, you make the inference that A is most likely
accompanied with B (even if you don't find B).

Now consider:

 A is accompanied by B, or C, or D. We have no statistics. We have in other words three
possible interpretations, but no way of deciding which one is the most probable. This is
the situation that obtains in a large number of cases, both in ancient history, in
philology and for that matter, in police work. And we need a kind of method for dealing
with such uncertainties. I hope you will see the connection to my reasoning around
Pythagoras. You do not have to like my statistics, but I would be interested to know how
you treat such conundrums methodically. Which is why I used the old trick question "Have
you stopped beating your wife?" (Yes or no!) in a slightly revamped version. If you are
ever dragged into court accused of wife-battering, you will soon find out that probability
thinking matters if physical proof or eyewitnesses are missing.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jun 15 20:58:10 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 22:58:10 +0200
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050664.23782.9782845461755379900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Chandrasekaran, Periannan" schrieb:


>
> Could you give some examples of such  Latin/Greek please?
>

I refer to my former answer to Chandra's question and can now suggest a
simple way of checking Greek and Latin words: Use the Perseus web site:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/

Here you will get access to Greek and Latin texts, and also to electronic
dictionaries for both languages. Here you will also find a fairly large
number of words that end in -trum og -tron. However, several of the Latin
words in -trum are Greek loanwords.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 16 14:40:03 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 07:40:03 -0700
Subject: Original Dravidian Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050708.23782.8015195337244731674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

  N.Ganesan wrote:
 > See Elli Marlow, More on the Uralo-Dravidian relationship: A
 > comparison of Uralic and Dravidian etymological vocabularies, PhD
 > thesis, UTexas, Austin, 1974 [Advisor: A. F. Sjoberg]
 > ... the salient work in this
 > field is the unpublished dissertation of Marlow (1974)
 > ... Tyler (1986) in a recent unpublished paper ...


*Thank you, seems interesting; but how can I read them here, in *Hungary?

Does (East) European universities have a Inter-Libarary Loan
exchange facilities with those in USA? That's one route.

Easy way: Order Marlow's PhD diss. photocopy through UMI
(University Microfilms Inc.?) in Michigan. They can be reached
thru' the web. If you read Marlow, may be you can add
more data.

I have a friend, Dr. N. Gopalasamy who teaches astronomy
at Johns Hopkins. He is a fine tamil poet; On his visits
to Finland to attend Seminars, he found there are many words
like tamil.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


Regards,
N. Ganesan


_______________________________________________________________
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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 16 14:53:27 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 07:53:27 -0700
Subject: Original Dravidian Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050710.23782.8361349807080164473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<<
This seems highly improbable (if they met the Uralians before that
:-)), if at least some of the suggested lexical connections are valid.
E. g. my favourite, Tamil 'mIn' 1. fish 2. star ~ Hungarian 'meny'
1. a kind of fish (2. daughter-in-law) and 'menny' heaven. If you
compare the 'audible distance' with (another favourite) Greek
'hepetai' ~ Sanskrit 'sacate', both meaning 'follows' in two fairly
closely related languages - I hope my point will seem convincing.
>>>

Does Hungarian meny (a kind of fish) and menny (heaven)
come from a verb something to do with brightness or shining?

Ta. mIn (star and fish) comes from the verb "min" (to shine,
to be bright etc.,). Compare Ta. 'minnal' = lightning.

Just like naL -> nAL, 'nAL mIn'=night star.
Also, from 'peL' -> 'pENu' (to desire, to protect) (cf. peN,
piLLai etc) and 'veL' -> 'vELvi' ('desire', vedic sacrifice,
'desiring grace of gods'?)
(From 'peL/veL' we have peNNARu/veNNARU -> Skt. vENA river in Punjab,
vEN gaGga, kRSNa vENI in A.P. etc.

Thanks,
N. Ganesan




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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 16 15:02:13 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N.Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 08:02:13 -0700
Subject: Original Dravidian Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050712.23782.5149533889954701688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think it was Henry Heras who first suggeted that the
fish signs in IVC seals represent 'star' as in Tamil.



--------------------------------------------------------

Does Hungarian meny (a kind of fish) and menny (heaven)
come from a verb something to do with brightness or shining?

Ta. mIn (star and fish) comes from the verb "min" (to shine,
to be bright etc.,). Compare Ta. 'minnal' = lightning.


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU  Wed Jun 16 13:17:22 1999
From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 09:17:22 -0400
Subject: MUSIC ARCHIVES
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990616142228.0084ecb0@pat.hint.no>
Message-ID: <161227050698.23782.4682089161070549366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Jon Skarpeid wrote:

> I am undertaking a study of Indian music and need admission to music
> archives, public and privat, in order to deal with old recordings. In the
> music stores, one hardly get any recording older than ca 1970.
>
> Any suggestions regarding archives. I am aware of only two.
>

"Indian music" is rather general. You might try asking this question in
rec.music.indian.classical if that is the type of music you want. There
is also rec.music.indian.misc (discusses mostly film music, I believe).

Rabindra Bhavan in Delhi used to (20+ yrs ago) have wonderful archives of
Hindustani classical, and also old Hindi film music.

--Geeta




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Wed Jun 16 08:21:49 1999
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 09:21:49 +0100
Subject: hayragreva
In-Reply-To: <E10twcG-0000nT-00@mailhub2.liv.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227050694.23782.7847310063156042913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See:

 <fontfamily><param>Norman</param><bigger>D. Sridhara Babu: HayagrIva.
The Horse-Headed Deity in

        Indian Culture. Tirupati 1990 (S. V. University Oriental Series No.
21).

</bigger></fontfamily>G.v.Simson


>Dear list members,

>I am looking for references to hayragreva (spelling?) the horse headed
demon

>and the Vishnu avatar of the same name/appearance.  Any suggestions as
to

>sources I could look into either visual (i.e., temple engravings,
etc.) or

>textual (translations or source materials)?

>Regards,

>Benjamin Fleming
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From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Wed Jun 16 04:10:16 1999
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 09:40:16 +0530
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
In-Reply-To: <007d01beb6d6$aff3ce40$6cefaccf@ramakris>
Message-ID: <161227050688.23782.10792025792578604416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote:
> The smArtas who owe allegiance to sha.nkara are spread all over the
> country. They are definitely greater in number and percentage
> [ than the Madhvas and Ramnujites ].

The distribution is, to the best of my knowledge, 70 % Vaishnavas, 25 %
Shaivas and only 1-2 % Smartas, Jains, Buddhists etc. In Tamil Nadu there
is a saying, `First Shaiva, then Smarta, then Vaishnava', ie. Smartism is
considered merely an intermediary step for converts from Shaivism to
Vaishnavism. Aryan culture is essentially Vaishnava and not Smarta.
  I agree with your view that Smartism only gained importance recently,
far outstripping the relative importance of its small numbers. There is
already a strong Vaishnava backlash going on against this.
-- Samar




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Wed Jun 16 04:21:47 1999
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 09:51:47 +0530
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
In-Reply-To: <007d01beb6d6$aff3ce40$6cefaccf@ramakris>
Message-ID: <161227050691.23782.7782789691202145290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote:
> The smArtas who owe allegiance to sha.nkara are spread all over the
> country. They are definitely greater in number and percentage.

The composition is ca. 75 % Vaishnava, 25 % Shaiva and only 1-2 % Smarta,
Jain & Buddhist. In Tamil Nadu, there is a saying `First Shaiva, then
Smarta, then Vaishnava', ie. Smartism is seen only as a stepping stone for
converts from Shaivism to Vaishnavsim and nothing else.
 I agree that the importance of Smartism is only recent, so that Smartism
has gained far more prominence than its low numerical importance suggests.
This is only a temporary phase, we shall see Vaishnava and Shaiva revivals
shortly as true traditions are restored.

Samar




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 16 17:17:36 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 10:17:36 -0700
Subject: Hindu Nationalism & Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050714.23782.14702706351903432622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

But is it not the advaita monk, Vidyaranya of Shringeri who started
this all? By organizing disparate upstarts from different castes
under one umbrella to form Vijayanagar empire? May be Vivekananda got
the clue from Shringeri??


--- Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> While on the subject, may I also point out one more thing? The Hindutva
> brand of nationalism owes very little to advaita philosophy or to
> contemporary advaitins. Those who think otherwise should perhaps interview
> the Madhva, Ramanandi and Gorakhpanthi monks who are at the forefront of the
> Masjid-Mandir controversy and other VHP activities today.
>
> Vidyasankar
>

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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 16 17:21:39 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 10:21:39 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050716.23782.4003950849247795840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the past, giving importance to one person is singularly missing.
We have no inscriptions at all mentioning either Sankara or Ramanuja.
Take Huge temples, Big books - hard to tell who made them. Opposite: A pencil
sketch of Matisse or Van Gogh gets 100 graduate school theses.
The West insists on who did what and when? I would think
they gave Sankara a spectacular rise in 19th and 20th century careers.


--- Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian <ramakris at EROLS.COM> wrote:

> Certainly, all schools influenced each other. My point was that the
> Westerners would have seen more advaitins among scholars, and that too
> spread out all over India. Surely, that would have played at least
> some role in the British paying more attention to the advaita school?
> Hacker's pioneering studies of advaita were not based on political
> considerations. He made it quite clear that he wanted to study the
> system in order to more efficiently proselytise Indians, or "dialog"
> as he calls it. Obviously, it would make more sense to study the
> system of the person who found the most acceptance among Indians.
>
> Rama
>

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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 16 17:33:04 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 10:33:04 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050720.23782.6144343091485655103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> I can only say that you are either being overly optimistic or overestimating
> the influence of Western scholarship over the minds of Indians or both. IVC
> = Dravidian has been the basic paradigm of Western scholarship for many
> decades now. It seems to have bred only resentment, not acceptance, in many
> Indian circles.

 Not really. Give us 10 Professors working in Europe and USA full-time
on Dravidian culture/letters; Their publications will shatter many internal
orientalisms/imperialisms/impositions.

Regards.

_________________________________________________________
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From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jun 16 17:24:41 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 13:24:41 -0400
Subject: MUSIC ARCHIVES
Message-ID: <161227050718.23782.8835282852077015295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Library of Congress has a rich collection of Indian music
recordings acquired by its offices in India and Pakistan, and also by
copyright deposit of recordings produced in the U.S.  In addition it
has a very large collection of old 78 rpm recordings produced by
Columbia and His Master's Voice in the subcontinent, going back to the
1930s or earlier.  These are indexed in the microfilm Rigler and
Deutsch Index kept here and at several other institutions.  Conditions
for use may be found at the Recorded Sound Reference Center's homepage
(http://lcweb.loc.gov/rr/record/ ).

The Archives and Research Centre for Ethnomusicology in New Delhi, an
institution supported by the American Institute of Indian Studies, has
a collection of tapes made as copies from the recordings made by
American ethnomusicologists, anthropologists, and musicians; of copies
made from commercial recordings lent them by individuals; of tapes
made directly from performances; and also of commercial recordings.

Sincerely,

Allen Thrasher





Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Jun 16 17:50:57 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 13:50:57 -0400
Subject: Looking for a book
Message-ID: <161227050723.23782.2212706325128331259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<Could anyone let me know if any copy of this book exists in the
United
States?

Bharadvajavrttibhasya on the Vaiseshika sutras; Gangadhar Kaviratna
Kaviraja
(or Gangadhar Rai); Calcutta; 1869 (or 1870); Published by the
Baptist
Missionary Press (Serampore)>>

This title does not show up in OCLC or on LC's database.


Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 16 21:14:52 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 14:14:52 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050726.23782.6213862555544220611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
> >Westerners popularizing Gita, Advaita and Sankara really stuck.
> >Look at Sankara's popularity with that of Abhinava Gupta.
> >Abhinava who created new fields in Sanskrit with theories/commentaries
> >on rasa/natya/dhvany/kashmir saivism etc., remains closeted
> >in a small circle. But, Sankara fills in well for nationalist/political
> >agendas.

 [[[
 Well, if you look at the contemporary scene, there is lot more Western
 interest in Abhinavagupta and Tantric studies than in Sankara and Vedanta.
 Tantra with its traditional concern with power will also fill in quite
 admirably for political purposes. It remains to be seen how Indians
 re-appropriate Abhinavagupta. ]]]

  This is exactly the problem. Very lop-sided "construct" of old India.
 Look at how many are studying Kashmir Shaivism. Silburn, Padoux et al
 in France, Gnoli, Torella et al in Italy, Muller-Ortega etal., in USA.
 But Tamil Shaivism with an order of magnitude of more texts, dating to
 much earlier times remains untouched. Look at Tamil iconography,
 Shaivaite imagery NOT found anywhere else, etc.,

 Take Tirumantiram, for instance. One of the earliest *tantric*
 works in India.Its author cannot postdate Sundarar of Narasimhavarman.
 Sunadarar lists Tirumantiram author as a Nayanmar.
 No Indologist has so far turned his mind to Tirumantiram.

 Regards,
 SM

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From Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO  Wed Jun 16 12:22:28 1999
From: Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 14:22:28 +0200
Subject: MUSIC ARCHIVES
Message-ID: <161227050696.23782.6466957122004580484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi!

I am undertaking a study of Indian music and need admission to music
archives, public and privat, in order to deal with old recordings. In the
music stores, one hardly get any recording older than ca 1970.

Any suggestions regarding archives. I am aware of only two.


Sincerely
Jon Skarpeid




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 16 21:35:43 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 14:35:43 -0700
Subject: hayragreva
In-Reply-To: <199906152203.SAA09944@alfred.ccs.carleton.ca>
Message-ID: <161227050730.23782.8323967692197946938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> At 02:03 PM 6/15/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >Dear list members,
> >I am looking for references to hayragreva (spelling?) the horse headed demon
> >and the Vishnu avatar of the same name/appearance.  Any suggestions as to
> >sources I could look into either visual (i.e., temple engravings, etc.) or
> >textual (translations or source materials)?
> >Regards,
> >Benjamin Fleming

Hayagriva is a very important deity for Vaidika Vaishnavas,
particularly in the South.

Please see these links for semi-scholarly articles:

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/acharyas/desika/stotras/hayagriva-nk.html
http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/aug98/0166.html
http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/aug98/0170.html
http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/aug98/0172.html
http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/aug98/0188.html

These links contain references to the Vedas, Puranas,
Tamil Divya Prabandham, and works of Sri Vaishnava scholars.

Mani




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 16 21:38:53 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 14:38:53 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
In-Reply-To: <19990616172139.7490.rocketmail@web305.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050732.23782.15165523148412789282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
> In the past, giving importance to one person is singularly missing.
> We have no inscriptions at all mentioning either Sankara or Ramanuja.

With this respect to Ramanuja, this is completely false.
Ramanuja is mentioned in epigraphy in Karnataka many times.

See  Gopal, B. R. (Balakrishnan Raja), 1930-
     Sri Ramanuja in Karnataka : an epigraphical study
     Delhi : Sundeep Prakashan, 1983.

There may be others in Tamil as well.

Mani




From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU  Wed Jun 16 12:41:56 1999
From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 14:41:56 +0200
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050702.23782.17569694986670913857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Chandrasekaran, Periannan wrote:
>Could you give some examples of such  Latin/Greek please?

Greek: a suffix forming 'nomina instrumenti' (nouns naming the instrument of
the action) from verbs, tro-n, also thro-n, where the -n is the ending of
sg. Nom-Acc. neut.

skEptron (staff, sceptre) from skEptO (to prop)
arotron (plough) from aroO (to till)
theAtron (theatre, audience) from theAomai (to view)
threptron (usu. pl.: reward for bringing up) from trephO (to feed, nourish,
bring up)
kentron (sting, goad) from kenteO (to pierce, incite)
plEktron (plectrum) from plEssO (root plEg-: to strike, beat, hit)

Latin: tru-m, where the -n is the ending of sg. Nom-Acc. neut. Most of them
loanwords from the Greek, but some are not:


arAtrum (plough) from arO, arAre (to plough)
rutrum (spade) from ruO, ruere (dig)
veretrum (pudendum) from vereor, verEri (to be shy)
spectrum (vision) from speciO, specere (to look, see)


Regards,
Ferenc




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jun 16 21:46:23 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 14:46:23 -0700
Subject: Hindu Nationalism & Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050734.23782.18295701295843081198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan <smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>But is it not the advaita monk, Vidyaranya of Shringeri who started
>this all?

Perhaps. I'm sure you know enough about South Indian history. The old
dynasties had all been decimated or had lost any claim to legitimacy. What
would you have liked for 14th century south India? Anarchy?

>By organizing disparate upstarts from different castes
>under one umbrella to form Vijayanagar empire?

For one thing, the early 14th century, with its fresh memory of the large
scale destruction caused by Malik Kafur, was quite different from the late
19th century of British India.

Secondly, you should perhaps pay attention to more recent studies of the
formation of Vijayanagar, e.g. the two volume book from Heidelberg, edited
by Dallapiccola and Zingel-Ave Lallemant.

Thirdly, India has always been full of different castes, and throughout the
world, new dynasties have been formed due to the success of "upstarts."
Charlemagne was an upstart, Babur was an upstart, the Tudors were upstarts,
Shivaji was an upstart and the Maravar and Kallar chiefs in Tamil Nadu were
upstarts. As you can see, upstarts ruled the world in a monarchical setup.
What is your point?

>May be Vivekananda got
>the clue from Shringeri??

Why speculate? Read Vivekananda's works for yourself and see where he got
his clues from.

Vidyasankar


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From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU  Wed Jun 16 12:52:58 1999
From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 14:52:58 +0200
Subject: Original Dravidian Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050706.23782.9767403626845543751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 N.Ganesan wrote:
> See Elli Marlow, More on the Uralo-Dravidian relationship: A
> comparison of Uralic and Dravidian etymological vocabularies, PhD
> thesis, UTexas, Austin, 1974 [Advisor: A. F. Sjoberg]
> ... the salient work in this
> field is the unpublished dissertation of Marlow (1974)
> ... Tyler (1986) in a recent unpublished paper ...


Thank you, seems interesting; but how can I read them here, in Hungary?

Regards,
Ferenc
--------------------------------------------------------
Ferenc Ruzsa
assistant professor of metaphysics
E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest
e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 16 21:54:32 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 14:54:32 -0700
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
In-Reply-To: <6cbe0b85.2499717f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227050736.23782.3723008197175953194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mr. Palaniappan wrote:
> In a message dated 6/11/99 12:18:55 PM Central Daylight Time,
> lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM writes:
>
> >My objection at
> >  that time, as it is now, is that your language centric
> >  interpretation is quite foreign to what the tradition
> >  itself understands. The tradition always thought in
> >  terms of the Kanchi and the Srirangam groups of
> >  acharyas.
>
> This is surprising. For a long time, scholars - Indian, Western, and
> Western-trained Indian - have acknowledged the language-based differences of
> the sects. Let me give an example for each.

[ excerpt deleted ]

Most works on the Vadagalai/Tengalai division
from this century have been based on V. Rangachari's
articles in various journals in the early part
of this century.  As N. Jagadeesan points out
in his history of post-Ramanuja Vaishnavism,
Rangachari was a rabid Vadagalai who viewed everything
Tengalai as heterodox.  More recent authors have
therefore seriously discounted anything based solely
on Rangachari's work.

Lakshmi Srinivas's statement above is that the *tradition*
did not see itself as split into linguistic groups until
this century (i.e., V. Rangachari's time).  All the early
acharyas till Vedanta Desika are cited by all orthodox scholar
s to this day.  All Sri Vaishnava scholars are required
to learn both Sanskrit and Tamil and bear the title Ubhaya
Vedanta pravartakAcArya.  It is common even in Vadagalai
discourse to praise the Divya Prabandham well over and
above the Sanskrit Vedas.  In short, I believe that it is
the historian who has injected language consciousness into
modern Sri Vaishnava dialogue.

Why, otherwise, would Vadagalai standard-bearers such as
Vedanta Ramanuja Mahadesikan (Sakshat Swami) and Periya
Parakaala Swami (17th - 18th centuries) write voluminous
commentaries in maNipravALa on the Divya Prabandham?
Why would Sholingur Doddacharya (16th century), a great
scholar in the Tengalai paramparA, dedicate himself to
almost solely to Sanskrit learning, particularly of Desika's
works?

The most convincing explanation for the split is that it is
based on two regionalized acharya paramparA-s which each
developed slightly different ways of solving philosophical
problems, based on differing religious milieus.  What is
often overlooked is that the difference in AcAra and anushThAna
between the sects is quite significant, and this can also
be attributed more to regionalization than anything else.

Mani

P.S. The earliest record in Sri Vaishnava literature of
the split, to my knowledge, is a phrase in "periya tirumuti
ataivu" which describes Vedanta Desika as "vatamArgattukku
ellAm SrESTar."  However, the PTA is a heavily interpolated
text, and we cannot be sure when this phrase was first
written.

The first edition of the PTA can be dated to the 16th century.

Mani




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 16 22:02:33 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 15:02:33 -0700
Subject: origin of mAl
Message-ID: <161227050738.23782.18269033866643035716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

Is there any account of the birth of mAl/mAyOn
in Tamil literature? I am looking for something
similar to murukan's birth from koRRavai, later
fused with Durga/Parvati.

For that matter, is there a Sanskrit account of
the birth of Vishnu, with the names of parents
given?

Mani




From Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO  Wed Jun 16 13:28:03 1999
From: Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 15:28:03 +0200
Subject: CLASSICAL INDIAN MUSIC ARCHIVES
Message-ID: <161227050700.23782.2339735862789106938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi!
I admit that "Indian music" is rather general. I am mainly seeking
classical Hindustani and (to some extent) carnatic music.

jon.




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Wed Jun 16 19:52:55 1999
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 15:52:55 -0400
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050724.23782.11509266304701239337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

@
@--- Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
@
@> I can only say that you are either being overly optimistic or overestimating
@> the influence of Western scholarship over the minds of Indians or both. IVC
@> = Dravidian has been the basic paradigm of Western scholarship for many
@> decades now. It seems to have bred only resentment, not acceptance, in many
@> Indian circles.
@
@ Not really. Give us 10 Professors working in Europe and USA full-time
@on Dravidian culture/letters; Their publications will shatter many internal
@orientalisms/imperialisms/impositions.
@
@Regards.

      Exactly.
      The role of Dravidian culture/scholarship/art/spiritual
      insights/music/medicine etc.  are at the core of indian lore, though
      not yet recognized by the West.
      When the world scholarship whether it is western or
      eastern or any other affluent culture discovers the core
      contributors to indiana, they will see the truth in a better light.
      Dravidian will be the touch stone.

      Sri Ramanujar is said to have been studying the hymns
      of Tamil Azhvaars, but it is not clear whether
      he had even mentioned as much as the name
      'Azhvaar'  in his sanskrit works.
      Adi Sankarar who is supposed to have been born and
      brought up in the then tamil-speaking land (today Malayalam-speaking
      Kerala), has so little to say about Tamil/Dravidian spiritualism.
      Reading only sanskrit works one may get a very distorted picture
      of India. While there are several stone images of Kaaraikaal Ammaiyaar
      discovered in the Far East, and even today one can find at least in
      thousand temples statues of Tamil/Dravidian
      spiritual saints, not many have Adi Sankarar.
      Not that these Tamil/Dravidian spiritual saints
      have not left any spiritual literature - they have;
      but they are yet to be
      recognized by world scholarship in proper perspective.
      Same goes for many other arts and science like music, dance,
      medicine etc. Grafting faulty, incomplete, comprehensions
      of dravidian wisdom, art and science into independent
      Aryan traditions (sanskrit) is complicating the picture.
      But I'm hoping that a better picture will emerge.

      Regards /C.R.(Selva) Selvakumar




From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU  Wed Jun 16 14:05:42 1999
From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 16:05:42 +0200
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050704.23782.4780578569432513230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
> (Sergent
> assumes that the Dravidians reached India before the eighth millennium
BCE).

This seems highly improbable (if they met the Uralians before that :-)), if
at least some of the suggested lexical connections are valid. E. g. my
favourite, Tamil 'mIn' 1. fish 2. star ~ Hungarian 'meny' 1. a kind of fish
(2. daughter-in-law) and 'menny' heaven. If you compare the 'audible
distance' with (another favourite) Greek 'hepetai' ~ Sanskrit 'sacate', both
meaning 'follows' in two fairly closely related languages - I hope my point
will seem convincing.

Yours,
Ferenc




From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU  Wed Jun 16 22:24:14 1999
From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 17:24:14 -0500
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
In-Reply-To: <199906162138.OAA11413@shasta.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <161227050748.23782.12413581708458835175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Mani Varadarajan wrote:

> >
> > In the past, giving importance to one person is singularly missing.
> > We have no inscriptions at all mentioning either Sankara or Ramanuja.
>
> With this respect to Ramanuja, this is completely false.
> Ramanuja is mentioned in epigraphy in Karnataka many times.
>
> See  Gopal, B. R. (Balakrishnan Raja), 1930-
>      Sri Ramanuja in Karnataka : an epigraphical study
>      Delhi : Sundeep Prakashan, 1983.
>
> There may be others in Tamil as well.
>
> Mani
>

And the temple at Melkote




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 16 21:30:39 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 17:30:39 -0400
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
Message-ID: <161227050728.23782.1615688470060631458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 6/11/99 12:18:55 PM Central Daylight Time,
lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM writes:

>My objection at
>  that time, as it is now, is that your language centric
>  interpretation is quite foreign to what the tradition
>  itself understands. The tradition always thought in
>  terms of the Kanchi and the Srirangam groups of
>  acharyas.

This is surprising. For a long time, scholars - Indian, Western, and
Western-trained Indian - have acknowledged the language-based differences of
the sects. Let me give an example for each.

V. N. Hari Rao says in "History of the Srirangam Temple", pp. 110-114, "Even
in the last days of rAmAnuja two distinct modes of expounding the vaiSNava
darzana or system were recognised. They were called the pravacanas, viz, the
zrIbhASya pravacana and the drAvidAmnAya pravacana. The former consisted of
the study of the vedAnta sUtras with the help of rAmAnuja's commentary on
them in Sanskrit and the latter the study of the 4,000 sacred prabandas
<sic>, in Tamil, of the AzvArs. rAmAnuja followed both the methods in his
expositions, but later on this gave rise to two separate schools, two centres
and two paramparas or succession lists...nampiLLai was an ardent lover of the
Tamil prabandAs <sic>  and he was a great force in the formation of the
prabanda school at zrIrangam. engaL AzvAn and varadAcArya of the bhASya
school were his contemporaries. On the withdrawal of the latter to kAncipuram
from zrIrangam nampiLLai acted vigorously and gathered around himself a band
of veteran scholars, whose avowed object was to win for the nascent prabanda
school  stability and popular recognition based on sectarian literature. The
ARAyirappaTi guruparamparai sketches a conflict between kandAdai tOzappa, the
grandson of mudaliyANDAn, and hence belonging to the orthodox and traditional
school, and nampiLLai. In the end, however, they were reconciled. On this
incident V. Rangachari comments, "the story is significant enough. It tells
us in a clear and unmistakable manner how the prabandic movement was looked
upon as heterodox, how it began in a small scale and how it gained strength
in time of nampiLLai by bringing round even such orthodox men as the AchAryic
kandADais"...varadAcArya effected the epoch-making transfer of his residence
and scene of lectures to kAncipuram from zrIrangam, thus giving rise to the
geographical factor of the split among the vaiSNavas. This might have been
due to several causes. For one thing kAncipuram was the native home of
varadAcArya. Probably the vociferous activities of nampiLLai and his
redoubtable disciples caused him considerable embarrassment and he might have
withdrawn to kAncipuram guided by his own inclination and convenience...In
course of time kAncipuram came to be identified with the Sanskrit and
traditional school of the bhASyA <sic>, and zrIrangam with the Tamil and
popular school of the prabanda. For all practical purposes, say by 1247, when
nampiLLai was forty and varadAcArya eighty-two, the parties had begun; but it
has to beclearly understood that the partisan spirit, which brought into
being two irreconcilable sects called vaDakalai and tenkalai made its
appearance only in the 15th century and later."

Although this book was published by S. V. University in 1976, it was based on
his doctoral dissertation completed in 1948.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 16 22:06:24 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 18:06:24 -0400
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
Message-ID: <161227050741.23782.4494724861884462713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Paul Younger's paper, "Singing the Tamil Hymnbook in the Tradition of
Ramanuja The Adyayanotsava Festival in Srirangam", (pp.12-109 - 12-128,
proceedings of the 1981 International Tamil Conference in Madurai ) also
brings out the language-based origin of the terms vaTakalai and ten2kalai.

Younger says, "In other festivals of the temple the Tenkalai priests and the
Vatakalai priests appear to be roughly equal in number and when they go in
procession with the image of the deity the Tenkalais go before the image of
the deity chanting Tamil hymns while the Vatakalais come behind chanting
Sanskrit hymns. This arrangement is widely followed in Srivaisnava temples
where both groups are represented, and it is generally thought to date back
to the fourteenth century -- when the priesthood split into two groups with
the Tenkalai or "Southerners" wanting to emphasize the Tamil hymns and the
doctrine of pirapatti or surrender, while the Vatakalais or "Northern sect"
wanted to emphasize Sanskrit and the need for devotion or bhakti to be
manifest in self-discipline... Most accounts of the origin of the dispute
tace it to differing theological emphases among the followers of Ramanuja who
were based respectively in the temples of Sri Rangam (Tenkalai) and
Kancipuram (Vatakalai) between the time of his death (1137?) and the Muslim
invasions (1313-23)...The heart of the Vatakalai argument was that their
teaching had the authority of the Veda, the revealed Sanskrit
scripture...While all the Srivaisnavas agreed that Ramanuja's system
continued to make temple worship essential, the Vatakalais contended that
there should be greater emphasis on the Sanskrit Veda in the light of the
teachings of Ramanuja himself. This emphasis, if followed, would have given
less attention to the Tamil hymns  and their characteristic teaching of
devotion  as abject surrender or pirapatti, and would have allowed for a
lesser role for the goddess Lakshmi as an intermediary between the soul and
the highest Lord, and for the saints. Tenkalais of the fifteenth century
recognized the need to ackknowledge the authority of the Veda, but they felt
that the heart of Ramanuja's contribution had been that it maintained the
traditional system of worship while providing it with intellectual support
through the introduction of a particular form of Vedic interpretation."

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun 17 01:29:28 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 18:29:28 -0700
Subject: origin of mAl
In-Reply-To: <9130EFB0684CD211869E0020484016B501C4C20A@satlmsgusr07.delta-air.com>
Message-ID: <161227050760.23782.12026533480584767781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I originally wrote:
> > Dear Indologists,
> >
> > Is there any account of the birth of mAl/mAyOn
> > in Tamil literature? I am looking for something
> > similar to murukan's birth from koRRavai, later
> > fused with Durga/Parvati.

To which Mr. Periyannan replied:

> If by "pArvati" you meant "the lady of the hills",
> and by "koRRavai" "the goddess of the desert/arid terrain",
> then the birth of murukan2's birth from pArvati ...

No, I am asking about the birth of mAl (vishNu),
not murukan.

koRRavai, according to Zvelebil, is the ancient
Tamil goddess of war, whose identity was later
fused with that of the Sanskrit deity pArvatI,
once murukan and subrahmaNya/skanda become
indistinguishable.

Mani




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 17 01:54:10 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 18:54:10 -0700
Subject: origin of mAl
Message-ID: <161227050764.23782.16271330142110145567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Mani Varadarajan <mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:
> I originally wrote:
> > > Dear Indologists,
> > >
> > > Is there any account of the birth of mAl/mAyOn
> > > in Tamil literature? I am looking for something
> > > similar to murukan's birth from koRRavai, later
> > > fused with Durga/Parvati.
>
> To which Mr. Periyannan replied:
>
> > If by "pArvati" you meant "the lady of the hills",
> > and by "koRRavai" "the goddess of the desert/arid terrain",
> > then the birth of murukan2's birth from pArvati ...
>
> No, I am asking about the birth of mAl (vishNu),
> not murukan.
>
> koRRavai, according to Zvelebil, is the ancient
> Tamil goddess of war, whose identity was later
> fused with that of the Sanskrit deity pArvatI,
> once murukan and subrahmaNya/skanda become
> indistinguishable.
>
> Mani
>

Mani,
 I was trying to correct your statement and   that murukan2 was born to
koRRavai and not to pAvati who you seem to think was not the mother of
murukan2 in the early texts.

Though we are not discussing your main question, by Skt deity pArvati,
do you mean Aryan deity?

Chandra
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 16 23:36:42 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 19:36:42 -0400
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
Message-ID: <161227050750.23782.15064962998134636095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Regarding this sectarian difference, Vasudha Narayanan (The Tamil Veda, pp.
187-190) writes, "Perhaps the most obvious objection to the continuing
reality of ubhaya vedAnta in the zrIvaiSNava community is the division of the
community into two sub-communities, the names of which suggest the two sides
of ubhaya vedAnta. teG-kalai, meaning 'southern culture," seems to refer to
the Tamil tradition just as vaTa-kalai, meaning "northern culture," refers to
the Sanskrit tradition. Is it then the case that the Dual vedAnta only
survived a few generations and finally broke into its original component
parts?

Our final answer to this question will be "No," but it has to be admitted
that there are some distinctions between vaTakalai and teGkalai zrIvaiSNavas
that do suggest emphases on one side or the other of the attempted synthesis.
The tradition of Sanskrit learning has by and large flourished more
vigorously in the vaTakalai community. There is also a celebrated remark
attributed to the teGkalai theologian piLLai lOkAcArya that he would only
teach in Tamil. Moreover, the vaTakalai community seems to have some closer
ritual links with other Brahmins (specifically the smArta Brahmins) than does
the teGkalai community. One might even see in the teGkalai emphasis on Divine
grace a reflection of the AzvAr's sentiments; conversely, in the vaTakalai
doctrine of the divine pretext (vyAja), a hint might be seen in the Vedic
emphasis on just reward according to the law of karma.

On closer scrutiny, however, these points prove to be only minor differences
in emphasis. What we see in both communities is a continuing effort to affirm
and to reconcile the Sanskrit and Tamil Vedas....

There are, it seems to us, certain important differences in emphasis between
the two schools that can best be understood as distinct developments of the
same ubhaya vedAnta."

It is obvious that there are indeed language-based differences in emphasis
between vaTakalai and ten2kalai sects.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Wed Jun 16 23:39:13 1999
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 19:39:13 -0400
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050752.23782.6496220414474269167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan <smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> In the past, giving importance to one person is singularly missing.
> We have no inscriptions at all mentioning either Sankara or
Ramanuja.
> Take Huge temples, Big books - hard to tell who made them. Opposite:
A pencil
> sketch of Matisse or Van Gogh gets 100 graduate school theses.
> The West insists on who did what and when? I would think
> they gave Sankara a spectacular rise in 19th and 20th century
careers.

Are you talking about this universe or some parallel universe? :->. Mr
"Madhuresan", how many papers/studies about sha.nkaras history  have
you read? Can you quote 5? My guess is that you can't quote even one.

There is just _one_ inscription relating to sha.nkara. It's found in
Cambodia. It is related to Sivasoma, the royal guru of Indravaman I.
Sivasoma is described as the disciple of sha.nkarabhagavat and the
inscription is dated circa 878CE. See C. Sivaramamurti , Bhagavatpada
Sri Sankaracarya for details. There is even a photograph of the
inscription. BTW, the distinction and significance between the names
sha.nkarabhagavat and sha.nkarAchArya has been discussed by Hacker.
This is with regard to manuscript colophons, but can be applied here
also as an obvious extension. This is also one of the first articles
anyone with even a _modicum_ of knowledge about sha.nkara/advaita
would have read.

In sha.nkaras times association of advaita monks with kings does not
seem to have been common.  Sha.nkara's own writings emphasize
nivR^itti and living in forests. Strong associations with kings
started later, during Vidyasa.nkaras times (~1100s), due to Muslim
conquests. So, it's not very surprising that not many inscriptions
have been found in sha.nkaras name.

Mani has already debunked your claims with respect to Ramanuja. Kindly
do some background research before perpetrating your myths/wishful
thinking in this scholarly forum. Reducing the number of
hotmail/yahoo/what-have-you accounts that you maintain may improve the
situation. Thank you.

Rama




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 17 00:11:05 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 20:11:05 -0400
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
Message-ID: <161227050755.23782.1608736946387710544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Consider the literal interpretation of the terms vaTakalai and ten2kalai by
Paul Younger and Vasudha Narayanan.

Paul Younger's
------------------------
ten2kalai - Southerners
vaTakalai - Northern sect

Vasudha Narayanan's
-----------------------------
ten2kalai - southern culture
vaTakalai - northern culture

>?From the sectarian differences described by both, clearly there is a
difference in emphasis between the two sects, i.e., between Sanskrit and
Tamil traditions. Philology,  establishes *beyond any doubt* the meanings of
the terms as has been used from 8th through 16th centuries. I think the
sectarian leader who first used the terms vaTakalai and ten2kalai to denote
the sects must have been well-versed in the Tamil tradition. While the
differences in emphasis may have been minor for others, for him it must have
been significant enough to identify the sects by the terms indicating
Sanskrit and Tamil texts. The geographic factor is an independent factor
altogether. (The differences seem to have existed even before varadAcArya set
up his base in kAncipuram.) If varadAcArya  had been from zrIvilliputtUr
(like periyAzvAr and ANTAL) and he had left zrIrangam and set up his base in
zrIvilliputtUr, still the sects could have been called vaTakalai and
ten2kalai. In this case, vaTakalai would have been based in a southern
location and the ten2kalai would have been based in a northern location!
After all, there have been a considerable number of vaTamas in Tirunelveli
and Kanyakumari regions.

On the other hand, when the tradition uses the term "ten2n2AcArya" it could
be interpreted literally in a geographic sense. Thus while ten2kalai is
language-based, ten2n2AcArya could be geography-based.

What is surprising to me is this. If what Lakshmi Srinivas says about the
traditional interpretation is correct, given the level of Tamil scholarship
that has prevailed among ten2kalai scholars, how  could the tradition
interpret "kalai" in vaTakalai and ten2kalai as "type" or "category"
assigning an intra-Tamilnadu geographic basis for the terms? Is it due to a
lack of rigorous philological approach among later scholars that led them to
miss the very deliberate choice made by the early sectarian scholars?  Or has
there been a deliberate attempt by later traditional scholars to interpret
the origin of differences as geography-based so that the significance of the
differences can be minimized leading to the unification of the community?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 17 03:15:12 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 20:15:12 -0700
Subject: hayragreva
Message-ID: <161227050770.23782.14955017496724321175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Balaji Hebbar <bhebbar at EROLS.COM> wrote:
> Dear  Mr. Fleming:
>
> The  deity  HayagrIva  is  important  in  the  MAdhva-VaiShNava
> SampradAya.  Let  me  list  a  few  things  about  HayagrIva  in  our
> tradition.
>

A place by the name of "tiruvayintira puram" in north central Tamil
nADu
is said to have a hayagrIva temple on a hill.

The Tamil god murukan2' is said to have destroyed an *asura*  who is
said to have had the head of a horse and the body ofa  human; that is
considered a very old tradition.
It is intriguing to see the same icon being employed as a deamon in one
myth and as a god in another. How old is this hayagrIva viSNu icon?

chandra
_________________________________________________________
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From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 17 00:50:10 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 20:50:10 -0400
Subject: yAzmuRippaN (Re: viLari and tODi rAga)
Message-ID: <161227050757.23782.10912703235931397031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 6/11/99 5:03:10 PM Central Daylight Time,
vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

> Interesting. Is there any known textual source of the story about yAzh
>  pANar? Or is it one of those tales that get reinforced by simple
repetition?


Since there was no response to this question till now, here is a late
response. The episode is described in periyapurANam 2342-2350.

But there are internal contradictions within the story. To me the story is
based on a possible historical opposition by a segment of pANar to the
temple-based Sanskritic culture of medieval Tamilnadu. The status of pANar as
described by the zaivite (and vaiSNavite) traditions do not seem to be
factual.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From bhebbar at EROLS.COM  Thu Jun 17 01:55:37 1999
From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 21:55:37 -0400
Subject: hayragreva
Message-ID: <161227050766.23782.2539726069211719909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear  Mr. Fleming:

The  deity  HayagrIva  is  important  in  the  MAdhva-VaiShNava
SampradAya.  Let  me  list  a  few  things  about  HayagrIva  in  our
tradition.

1.  HayagrIva  is  the  upa-ArAdhya  devatA  (secondary  presiding
deity)  of  the  Sode  MaTha  of  UDupi.  VAdirAja  TIrtha  (1480-1600),
the  charismatic  20th  abbott  of  the  Sode  MaTha  was  a  great
worshipper  of  HayagrIva.  If  you  go  to  UDupi  you  will  be  able
to  obtain  several  present-day  popular  prints  of  VAdirAja  TIrtha
doing  naivedya  to  HayagrIva.  As  regards,  viewing  the  idol
itself  it  is  not  possible  on  account  of  ritual  purity.
VAdirAja  TIrtha's  brindAvana  (cenotaph)  is  at  Sode,  North  Kanara
Distt,  Karnataka.

2.  HayagrIva  is  an  important  deity  connected  with  RAghavendra
TIrtha  (1596-1671),  the  charsmatic  7th  abbott  of  the  RAyara
MaTha  located  at  MantrAlaya,  Kurnool  Distt,  A.P.  At  the  end  of
his  entering  his  cenotaph  alive  (sajIvabrindAvanapravesha)  it  is
said  that  HayagrIva  gave  darshana  to  his  dear  friend
AppaNNAcArya.

3.  Across  the  TungabhadrA  river  from  MantrAlaya  is  a
udbhavamUrti  of  a  unique  deity  called  PaNchamukhI  Anjaneya.  Tho'
the  main  face  of  the  deity  is  HanumAn,  HayagrIva  is  one  of
the  other  faces.  Both  HanumAn  and  HayagrIva  are  associated  with
high  Vedic  learning.  Popular  prints  of  PanchamukhI  also  should
be  availible  at  MantrAlaya.

4.  "HayagrIva"  is  the  name  of  a  sweet  delicacy  prepared  with
lentils,  jaggery  and  ghee  which  is  a  brand  name  dish  of  the
MAdhvas.  No  major  MADhva  religious  or  social  event  is  complete
without  the  "HayagrIva"  dish.  It  is  called  "HayagrIva  maDDI"  by
MAdhva  chefs.

5.  If  you  come  across  a  any  gentleman  named  "HayagrIvAcArya",
"Hayavadana  Rao"  etc.  Without  a  doubt  he  is  a  MAdhva.  In
fact,  the  current  principal  of  the  main  MAdhva  VidyApItha  in
Bangalore  is  a  gentleman  named  Hayavadana  Puranik.


I  hope  this  together  with  info  that  the  others  have  already
given  you  will  help.  If  you  need  more  info  or  clarification,
please  don't  hesitate  to  ask.  Good  luck.

Regards,
B.N.Hebbar




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 17 05:04:29 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 22:04:29 -0700
Subject: hayragreva
Message-ID: <161227050776.23782.4119132451917226598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Periannan Chandrasekaran <perichandra at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>
>The Tamil god murukan2' is said to have destroyed an *asura*  who is
>said to have had the head of a horse and the body ofa  human; that is
>considered a very old tradition.
>It is intriguing to see the same icon being employed as a deamon in one
>myth and as a god in another. How old is this hayagrIva viSNu icon?

There is a Puranic myth in which an Asura with a human body and horse head
steals the Vedas when Brahma is asleep between two kalpas. Vishnu has to
take a similar form as the Asura in order to kill him and retrieve the
Vedas. I forget the exact Puranic source, but it should not be difficult to
track down.

In the Brahmanda Purana, it is Vishnu-Hayagriva who reveals the worship of
Sakti to Agastya and others.

Vidyasankar


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From nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM  Thu Jun 17 08:10:06 1999
From: nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM (Nicholas Bedworth)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 22:10:06 -1000
Subject: Is this a genuine message?
Message-ID: <161227050784.23782.4964401751883791681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yup, it's genuine. Somebody on the list changed their mail address or the
address is no longer valid. So, provided you read Hungarian, the message
makes a lot of sense! Somebody is bouncing back an errant message.

The Indology list administrators can take the person off the list to prevent
this.

----- Original Message -----
From: Claude Setzer <cssetzer at MUM.EDU>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: Is this a genuine message?


> I received the same message when responding to a post.
>
> Claude Setzer
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>
> To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 10:54 PM
> Subject: Is this a genuine message?
>
>
> > Dear list members,
> >
> > Lately, I have received messages like the one shown below. However, the
> > posting seems to have been received by the list as shown by the
archives.
> I
> > never sent my posting to indology at egon.gyaloglo.hu anyway. Does anybody
> know
> > the reason for this message? Anybody else had this problem? Thanks.
> >
> > Regards
> > S. Palaniappan
> > ___________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > Subj:    Hiba:      Re: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
> > Date:   6/16/99 10:35:08 PM Central Daylight Time
> > From:   mailer-daemon at egon.gyaloglo.hu
> > Reply-to:       <A
> > HREF="mailto:egon at egon.gyaloglo.hu">egon at egon.gyaloglo.hu</A>
> > To:     Palaniappa at AOL.COM
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Uzenetet nem tudtuk tovabbitani!
> >
> > Az On altal a(z) indology at egon.gyaloglo.hu
> > cimre kuldott uzenetet nem tudtuk tovabbitani.
> >
> > A hiba oka a kovetkezo lehet:
> >
> > - megtelt a cimzett levelesladaja.
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > We couldn't deliver your message!
> >
> > The message sent to the address  indology at egon.gyaloglo.hu
> > couldn't be delivered.
> >
> > The reason for the error:
> >
> > - The mailbox of the user is full.
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >     Oldalaink http cime: http://egon.gyaloglo.hu/
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> > ----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
> > Return-Path: <mailer-daemon at egon.gyaloglo.hu>
> > Received: from  rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com
[172.31.36.98])
> by
> > air-za02.mx.aol.com (v59.51) with SMTP; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:35:08 -0400
> > Received: from egon.gyaloglo.hu (counter.gyaloglo.hu [194.143.248.34]
(may
> be
> > forged))
> >           by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0)
> >           with ESMTP id XAA17263 for <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>;
> >           Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:35:05 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: mailer-daemon at egon.gyaloglo.hu
> > Received: (from freemail at localhost)
> >         by egon.gyaloglo.hu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA18442
> >         for Palaniappa at AOL.COM; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:35:01 +0200
> > Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:35:01 +0200
> > Message-Id: <199906170335.FAA18442 at egon.gyaloglo.hu>
> > Reply-To: egon at egon.gyaloglo.hu
> > To: Palaniappa at AOL.COM
> > Subject: Hiba:      Re: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
> > Rem: _eZT_a_lEVELET_lATTAM_mAR
> >




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 17 05:10:57 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 22:10:57 -0700
Subject: Aurobindo about Advaita
Message-ID: <161227050778.23782.18183181215623667433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>From: "Prasad, Bhallamudi" <Bhallamudi-Prasad at deshaw.com>
>To: "'Samar Abbas '" <abbas at IOPB.RES.IN>,        "'Ramakrishnan
>Balasubramanian'" <ramakris at EROLS.COM>,        "'Vidyasankar Sundaresan'"
><vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM>
>Subject: RE: Aurobindo about Advaita
>Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:34:42 +0530
>
>Due to the use of e-mail aliases by my e-mail client I have been unable to
>post to the list. Maybe one of you will post this back to the list. I am
>surprised both by Mr Abbas' statistics and final assertion!
>
>First: the term "Smarta" refers to one who owes allegiance to the Smritis,
>which are the Vedas. Since Advaitins (Sankara), Visishta-advaitins
>(Ramanuja) and Dvaitins (Madhva) & various Saivite sects all accept the
>authority of the Vedas, all are technically Smartas. In fact, all those who
>subscribe to any of the six old systems of philosophy (Nyaya, Vaiseshika,
>Sankhya, Yoga & Purva & Uttara Meemamsa) which accept the authority of the
>Vedas are also Smartas; we can only exempt Jains, Buddhists & Charvakas
>from
>the Smarta fold!
>
>I agree that nowdays in south India generally anyone who is not a Vaishnava
>or Saiva is loosely referred to as a Smarta, but this usage changes from
>place to place; I have heard many in Andhra refer to themselves as "Saivas"
>in the sense that they are "not Vaishnavas"! However the numbers given seem
>incorrect. I have no hard data readily available, but would say, on a south
>Indian basis: 70% "Smarta", 20% "Vaishnava", remaining others. In fact, the
>percentage of "Smartas" in regions other than Tamil Nadu should be higher.
>
>Thanks. I apologise for my poor transliteration.
>
>BPrasad
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:       Samar Abbas [SMTP:abbas at IOPB.RES.IN]
> > Sent:       Wednesday, June 16, 1999 9:52 AM
> > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> > Subject:    Re: Aurobindo about Advaita
> >
> > On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote:
> > > The smArtas who owe allegiance to sha.nkara are spread all over the
> > > country. They are definitely greater in number and percentage.
> >
> > The composition is ca. 75 % Vaishnava, 25 % Shaiva and only 1-2 %
>Smarta,
> > Jain & Buddhist. In Tamil Nadu, there is a saying `First Shaiva, then
> > Smarta, then Vaishnava', ie. Smartism is seen only as a stepping stone
>for
> > converts from Shaivism to Vaishnavsim and nothing else.
> >  I agree that the importance of Smartism is only recent, so that
>Smartism
> > has gained far more prominence than its low numerical importance
>suggests.
> > This is only a temporary phase, we shall see Vaishnava and Shaiva
>revivals
> > shortly as true traditions are restored.
> >
> > Samar


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From bhebbar at EROLS.COM  Thu Jun 17 02:15:22 1999
From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 22:15:22 -0400
Subject: Silence
Message-ID: <161227050768.23782.5688212941396135832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear  Prof. Ruzsa:

Well  said!  In  this  connexion,  I  wish  to  share  a  KannaDa
proverb  that  echoes  sentiments  similar  to  that  you  have
expressed.  Here  is  the  proverb  and  its  translation:

"ahankArakke  udAsInave  maTTu"  (The  only  way  to  curb  arrogance
is  to  ignore  it)

I  am  sure  there  are  similar  ones  in  other  languages.  Just
felt  like  sharing  this  with  you.

Thanks  for  reading.

Many  Regards,
B.N.Hebbar




From cssetzer at MUM.EDU  Thu Jun 17 04:29:12 1999
From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 23:29:12 -0500
Subject: Is this a genuine message?
Message-ID: <161227050774.23782.11448541893307112448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I received the same message when responding to a post.

Claude Setzer
----- Original Message -----
From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 10:54 PM
Subject: Is this a genuine message?


> Dear list members,
>
> Lately, I have received messages like the one shown below. However, the
> posting seems to have been received by the list as shown by the archives.
I
> never sent my posting to indology at egon.gyaloglo.hu anyway. Does anybody
know
> the reason for this message? Anybody else had this problem? Thanks.
>
> Regards
> S. Palaniappan
> ___________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Subj:    Hiba:      Re: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
> Date:   6/16/99 10:35:08 PM Central Daylight Time
> From:   mailer-daemon at egon.gyaloglo.hu
> Reply-to:       <A
> HREF="mailto:egon at egon.gyaloglo.hu">egon at egon.gyaloglo.hu</A>
> To:     Palaniappa at AOL.COM
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Uzenetet nem tudtuk tovabbitani!
>
> Az On altal a(z) indology at egon.gyaloglo.hu
> cimre kuldott uzenetet nem tudtuk tovabbitani.
>
> A hiba oka a kovetkezo lehet:
>
> - megtelt a cimzett levelesladaja.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> We couldn't deliver your message!
>
> The message sent to the address  indology at egon.gyaloglo.hu
> couldn't be delivered.
>
> The reason for the error:
>
> - The mailbox of the user is full.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>     Oldalaink http cime: http://egon.gyaloglo.hu/
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> ----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
> Return-Path: <mailer-daemon at egon.gyaloglo.hu>
> Received: from  rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98])
by
> air-za02.mx.aol.com (v59.51) with SMTP; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:35:08 -0400
> Received: from egon.gyaloglo.hu (counter.gyaloglo.hu [194.143.248.34] (may
be
> forged))
>           by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0)
>           with ESMTP id XAA17263 for <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>;
>           Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:35:05 -0400 (EDT)
> From: mailer-daemon at egon.gyaloglo.hu
> Received: (from freemail at localhost)
>         by egon.gyaloglo.hu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA18442
>         for Palaniappa at AOL.COM; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:35:01 +0200
> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:35:01 +0200
> Message-Id: <199906170335.FAA18442 at egon.gyaloglo.hu>
> Reply-To: egon at egon.gyaloglo.hu
> To: Palaniappa at AOL.COM
> Subject: Hiba:      Re: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
> Rem: _eZT_a_lEVELET_lATTAM_mAR
>




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 17 03:54:25 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 23:54:25 -0400
Subject: Is this a genuine message?
Message-ID: <161227050772.23782.8738483680591877815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

Lately, I have received messages like the one shown below. However, the
posting seems to have been received by the list as shown by the archives. I
never sent my posting to indology at egon.gyaloglo.hu anyway. Does anybody know
the reason for this message? Anybody else had this problem? Thanks.

Regards
S. Palaniappan
___________________________________________________



Subj:    Hiba:      Re: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
Date:   6/16/99 10:35:08 PM Central Daylight Time
From:   mailer-daemon at egon.gyaloglo.hu
Reply-to:       <A
HREF="mailto:egon at egon.gyaloglo.hu">egon at egon.gyaloglo.hu</A>
To:     Palaniappa at AOL.COM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Uzenetet nem tudtuk tovabbitani!

Az On altal a(z) indology at egon.gyaloglo.hu
cimre kuldott uzenetet nem tudtuk tovabbitani.

A hiba oka a kovetkezo lehet:

- megtelt a cimzett levelesladaja.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We couldn't deliver your message!

The message sent to the address  indology at egon.gyaloglo.hu
couldn't be delivered.

The reason for the error:

- The mailbox of the user is full.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Oldalaink http cime: http://egon.gyaloglo.hu/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
Return-Path: <mailer-daemon at egon.gyaloglo.hu>
Received: from  rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98]) by
air-za02.mx.aol.com (v59.51) with SMTP; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:35:08 -0400
Received: from egon.gyaloglo.hu (counter.gyaloglo.hu [194.143.248.34] (may be
forged))
          by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0)
          with ESMTP id XAA17263 for <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>;
          Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:35:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: mailer-daemon at egon.gyaloglo.hu
Received: (from freemail at localhost)
        by egon.gyaloglo.hu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA18442
        for Palaniappa at AOL.COM; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:35:01 +0200
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:35:01 +0200
Message-Id: <199906170335.FAA18442 at egon.gyaloglo.hu>
Reply-To: egon at egon.gyaloglo.hu
To: Palaniappa at AOL.COM
Subject: Hiba:      Re: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
Rem: _eZT_a_lEVELET_lATTAM_mAR




From yaap at XS4ALL.NL  Thu Jun 17 01:51:49 1999
From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 03:51:49 +0200
Subject: ACII, ISCII, Unicode [was: CSX+ fonts &c]
Message-ID: <161227050762.23782.17385089595771657686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 John Smith wrote: 

>On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Jaap Pranger wrote:
>
>> ...
>>
>> Context sensitive rendering will also be available through UniScribe
>> (the Windows Unicode Script Processor) in Windows NT 5.0,

>This was news to me. Is there any indication of when an Indian-language
>renderer might appear?

Not really, "UniScribe is expected to ship with Internet Explorer 5.0" 


For details of Uniscribe: 
   <http://www.microsoft.com/msj/1198/multilang/multilangtop.htm>

To wet your appetite, some relevant paragraphs below.              
  

<copy> --- <http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/> ---  


Multilanguage text support in Windows 2000
[article by] F. Avery Bishop, David C. Brown, David M. Meltzer

------------------
Multilingual Features in Windows NT 5.0 

All language versions of Windows NT 5.0 will be enabled for all supported 
languages, including European, and Far Eastern. This includes languages 
written with complex scripts such as Arabic, Hebrew, Thai, Devanagari, 
and Tamil. Applications that display plain text using Unicode can handle
mixed text from any of the supported scripts. For example, you can pass 
a Unicode string containing French, Thai, Hindi, Korean, and Arabic text 
to ExtTextOutW, which will display the whole string in one pass. Thus, 
a Unicode application (one compiled with the -DUNICODE option) can display 
text in any of the supported scripts, without changing locales, on any 
language version of Windows NT 5.0. [............................................]

As you can see from the sample code in Figure 1, Indic scripts must be 
handled separately because they have no charset values. Since there is 
no default ACP value for Indic scripts, none of the Win32? ANSI entry 
points (the A routines) will work with Indic text. Indic text is not 
automatically translated to Unicode. There are ways to force translation 
of Indic text to or from Unicode using MultiByteToWideChar and 
WideCharToMultiByte by specifying the appropriate code page. 
However, an Indic input locale can only pass Indic text to a Unicode 
application, so full support for Indic scripts requires a Unicode 
application. [............................................]

There are two requirements for displaying complex scripts correctly 
using the standard Win32-based applications. First, applications should 
save characters in a buffer and display the whole line of text at once 
rather than, for example, calling ExtTextOut on each character as it is 
typed in by the user. When characters are written out one by one, the 
complex script shaping modules cannot determine the context for correct 
reordering and glyph shaping.   [............................................]

Uniscribe [Unicode Script Processor (USP10.DLL)]

The new Unicode Script Processor (USP10.DLL), also known as Uniscribe, 
is a collection of APIs that enables a text layout client to format complex 
scripts. Uniscribe supports the complex rules found in scripts such as 
Arabic, Indian, and Thai. Uniscribe also handles scripts written from 
right-to-left such as Arabic or Hebrew, and supports the mixing of scripts. 
For plain-text clients, Uniscribe provides a range of ScriptString functions 
that are similar to TextOut, with additional support for caret placement. 
The remainder of the Uniscribe interfaces provide finer control to clients. 

Although native to Windows NT 5.0, the Uniscribe DLL may also be distributed 
for use on Windows NT 4.0, Windows 95, and Windows 98-based systems. 
USP10.DLL is also expected to ship with Microsoft? Internet Explorer 5.0. 

Uniscribe uses multiple shaping engines that contain the layout knowledge for 
particular scripts (see Figure 4 ). It also takes advantage of the OpenType 
layout shaping engine for handling font-specific script features such as glyph 
generation, extent measurement, and word-breaking support. 
[............................................] 

</copy>

Regards,

Jaap Pranger 

-- 




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 17 12:35:52 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 05:35:52 -0700
Subject: Ramanuja in Karnataka (was: Re: Aurobindo about Advaita)
Message-ID: <161227050787.23782.5463652272273090792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for the reference. Are the inscriptions mentioning Ramanuja
in Karnataka from 11-12th centuries? Or, are they later?
Eg., Vijayanagar period.  Dates of the Melkote inscriptions? What do
they say about Ramanuja?

Thanks.

--- Mani Varadarajan <mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > In the past, giving importance to one person is singularly missing.
> > We have no inscriptions at all mentioning either Sankara or Ramanuja.
>
> With this respect to Ramanuja, this is completely false.
> Ramanuja is mentioned in epigraphy in Karnataka many times.
>
> See  Gopal, B. R. (Balakrishnan Raja), 1930-
>      Sri Ramanuja in Karnataka : an epigraphical study
>      Delhi : Sundeep Prakashan, 1983.
>
> There may be others in Tamil as well.
>
> Mani
>

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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 17 13:03:49 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 06:03:49 -0700
Subject: yAzmuRippaN (Re: viLari and tODi rAga)
Message-ID: <161227050789.23782.16967363462414770779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There was a relative decline in social status of the
sangam era bards with time- KaaLamEkam sings "pANarkkuc collvatum tai"
indicating that pANars(bards) have become tailors. Also, there are groups
nowadays going by the title "narambu kaTTi". Could be vestiges of
ancient pANar.

When there is a break in tradition, new meanings are imported
by changing "r" to "R". Read R. P. Sethu Pillai, Urum Perum
where RPS describes how "maraik kADu" (deer forest) was
changed to "maRaik kADu" which is rendered as "vEdAraNyam".
Similar to "yAzh muri" changing to "yAzh muRi".

A humorous change within Tamil itself. Tevaram sings the
Goddess of a town as "yAzhaip pazhitta moziyAL" (veenavAdavidhuushani).
Over time, "yaazhaip pazhittAL" transforms to "vAzhaippazhattAL".
A naivedhya ritual was started to offer bananas (vAzhaip pazham)
to the Goddess. Like saltless offering at Oppiliyappan temple
taking him to be "uppu ili" (without salt).

Regards,
SM


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From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Thu Jun 17 07:01:46 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 09:01:46 +0200
Subject: Shulbasutras
In-Reply-To: <37657C33.7847A34F@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050782.23782.10504750458926125656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> I have a book on the Shulbasutras written by an Indian engineer which might be of
> interest to you. Unfortunately, I haven't got it here in Oxford, it is in my home in
> Oslo, but if you send me an email in the middle of July or so and remind me, I should
> be back, and I can give you the bibliographic details. I have not had the opportunity
> to read it yet, but from leafing through it, it looks quite interesting.

That would be very nice of you.  I will make a note of contacting
you on this in middle July.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Thu Jun 17 07:01:46 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 09:01:46 +0200
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?-A simpler explanalation
In-Reply-To: <19990614231639.15558.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050780.23782.435868675600288267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you, Vishal, for the references.  I appreciate it.  I will try and
look them up.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun 17 18:13:16 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 11:13:16 -0700
Subject: hayragreva
In-Reply-To: <19990617031512.10312.rocketmail@web707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227050799.23782.10739099285123110411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> A place by the name of "tiruvayintira puram" in north central Tamil
> nADu
> is said to have a hayagrIva temple on a hill.

> How old is this hayagrIva viSNu icon?

This Hayagriva icon dates from at least Vedanta Desika's
time (late 13th century).  Desika is said to have had
a vision of Hayagriva here while meditating on the Hayagriva
mantra.

Please see the Web site mentioned in my previous message
for further details on this 'aitIhyam'.

Mani




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun 17 18:16:48 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 11:16:48 -0700
Subject: Ramanuja in Karnataka (was: Re: Aurobindo about Advaita)
In-Reply-To: <19990617123552.20893.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050801.23782.16395403264114360081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Several of the inscriptions mentioning Ramanuja
date from the early to mid 12th century, i.e.,
either during Ramanuja's lifetime or shortly
thereafter.  There are others which mention
Ramanuja's immediate disciples such as Anantalvan
and Kidambi Accan.

Most of these inscriptions are with reference
to Ramanuja's activity in Melkote and at a temple
(I forget the name) prior to its renovation.

Mani




From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 17 19:20:15 1999
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 12:20:15 -0700
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
Message-ID: <161227050803.23782.12312622571962042202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan  wrote:

There's nothing in this post or the one before this
that precludes an exclusive geographic connotation as
opposed, for example, to the linguistic one.

> . Philology,  establishes *beyond
> any doubt* the meanings of
> the terms as has been used from 8th through 16th
> centuries.

I'm not so sure. Also, the texts quoted do not seem to
use the word "kalai"  in the sense of a sect. I guess
one needs to look closer.

I do not want to discuss the rest of the post as IMHO,
it belongs more in the realm of speculation. I'll say
this however: while the Manipravala commentators
definitely knew a fair amount of Tamil, their use of
the term "tamizar", "tamizan oruvan" etc was in the
sense of an outsider, as one who did not belong to the
tradition. You may find this in the IDu where phrases
like cunaiyADal or toDuvuzi toDuvuzi nIGki (Kur. 399)
are refered to.

It is my belief that the answer to the etymology
question is ultimately  bound up also with certain
sects who were involved in temple worship vis a vis
those that were more vedic oriented. This appears to
have had a pronounced geographic bias.

Thanks and Warm Regards,

LS





_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Jun 17 13:42:59 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 14:42:59 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN] warnings and cancellations
Message-ID: <161227050791.23782.10929914450303042627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have just sent out warnings to those INDOLOGY members who have sent too
many or too long messages to the list in recent months.  I have also been
obliged to summarily delete the memberships of four contributors who
posted a grossly inflated number of messages to the list last month.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, please re-read the "Rules"
section of the INDOLOGY terms and conditions, on the web page
(http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indnet-rules.html).

Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY list founder




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Jun 17 13:54:51 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 14:54:51 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN] Re: Is this a genuine message?
In-Reply-To: <02d401beb898$cf6057d0$4e455e18@hawaii.rr.com>
Message-ID: <161227050794.23782.5413107297738376669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I just got one of those Hungarian devils myself.  I think what is going on
is that this guy has set up his email system poorly, and then gone away.
His account has filled up, and error messages are being sent *to the
list members* (not the list qua list).

The only way this could happen, as far as I can see, is if he has
downloaded the membership list and made his own mailing list of it.

I've deleted indology at egon.etc from the INDOLOGY list membership, but if
he has done the above, this will not solve the problem.

I am contacting the postmaster at Egon.

--
--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Jun 17 14:36:53 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 15:36:53 +0100
Subject: Date of Nagarjuna
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.990610072841.11455A-100000@emerald.tufts.edu>
Message-ID: <161227050796.23782.5474736218321915604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See Ian Mabbett, "The problem of the historical Nagarjuna revisited",
        JAOS 118 (1998): 332-46.

--
Dominik Wujastyk




From klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA  Thu Jun 17 20:20:31 1999
From: klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Bo Klintberg)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 16:20:31 -0400
Subject: Pythagoras mentioned in Vedas?
In-Reply-To: <3766AB36.2F8A447D@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227050805.23782.10402746871865931235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Lars Martin,

I thank you for inviting me to such a debate, but I am afraid that I will
have to pass. The reason is simply that I don't think that this type of
inferential logic will do any good to history in general or Indological
research in specific. As I see it, there is nothing that can be compared
with real evidence (archeology, etc.). Therefore, at least in my own
research, I will invest my time in more rudimentary research and less in
philosophizing.

Perhaps an example is appropriate here. Anyone who reads Greek philosophy
must have been quite surprised over the accounts that Arstotle left us
with. Although an excellent philosopher in his own right, his ability <to
observe> the world around him left him with some really unsatisfying
conclusions. I think we all can learn something from this example.

But I nevertheless wish you all success in your philosophical efforts!

Greetings from a cloudy and chilly Toronto,
Bo Klintberg
--------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> Bo Klintberg wrote:
>
> > Dear Lars Martin Fosse:
> >
> > This is just a short letter to tell you that I am <truly> sorry if I have
> > <personally> offended you. I thought that I just scrutinized some
> > argumenents that potentially I thought were yours. Once again, I am truly
> > sorry if I in any way disturbed or offended your person.
> >
> > That doesn't, however, mean that I like your way of doing statistics. I
> > still don't. :-)
>
> I disliked your argument about chimpanzees, which seemed to indicate that I had rather
> primitive ideas about Indians. However, you are forgiven.
>
> Now, my statistical views have to do with a certain kind of inferential logic that is used
> extensively in the humanities, in politics and in law. I think a debate along such lines
> would be interesting, and I invite you to such a debate. I'll promise to be serious, and
> not make nasty remarks. My interest in this matter was stimulated by my reading of more
> Indo-European homeland studies (both European and Indian) than any man should have to read
> in his life. It struck me that much of the reasoning in cases where data are scanty is
> based on analogy, or if you like, paradigmatic thinking. Because certain data (or
> combinations of data) are associated with certain other things according to experience, the
> data are interpreted along the same lines. In the homeland context, for instance, the
> Indo-Aryan migration into India was a couple of generations ago seen as an invasion of
> warlike tribes, overrunning and destroying the Harappan civilization. This was analogous to
> for instance the situation in the late Roman empire. We know today that this interpretation
> is wrong, and that there are other models or analogies available, so that the modalities of
> the intrusion of Indo-Aryans into India can be interpreted in other ways. This leads me to
> a more general consideration:
>
> Assume that the phenomenon A always is accompanied by the phenomenon B. Then we have an
> ironclad rule, and we know that whenever we find A, we have B as well (if B is not
> physically present any more, we must assume that it once was). Then consider the following
> situation:
>
> A is accompanied by B in 50 % of the cases
>                             by C in 25% of the cases
> and                       by D in 25% of the cases.
>
> Now if you find A (and only A), you have to make a choice between B, C and D. Since we have
> statistics based on experience, the most likely candidate to accompany A is B, but both C
> and D are possible. In other words, finding A, you make the inference that A is most likely
> accompanied with B (even if you don't find B).
>
> Now consider:
>
>  A is accompanied by B, or C, or D. We have no statistics. We have in other words three
> possible interpretations, but no way of deciding which one is the most probable. This is
> the situation that obtains in a large number of cases, both in ancient history, in
> philology and for that matter, in police work. And we need a kind of method for dealing
> with such uncertainties. I hope you will see the connection to my reasoning around
> Pythagoras. You do not have to like my statistics, but I would be interested to know how
> you treat such conundrums methodically. Which is why I used the old trick question "Have
> you stopped beating your wife?" (Yes or no!) in a slightly revamped version. If you are
> ever dragged into court accused of wife-battering, you will soon find out that probability
> thinking matters if physical proof or eyewitnesses are missing.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lars Martin Fosse
>




From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jun 17 23:32:42 1999
From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 16:32:42 -0700
Subject: Pythagorean theorem
Message-ID: <161227050809.23782.5111826155806422219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

    While going through my notes this afternoon I found a clipping of a
report that appeared in The Tribune (Ambala) of June 26, 1993. Professors
Sema'an-I-Salem and Alok Kumar of California State University, Long Beach,
according to this report, have translated a text called Kitab Tabaqut
al-Umam (Book of Categories of Nations) written by Sa'id-al-Andalusi in
1068.
    Among eight contributions to science made by ancient Indian scholars,
the book mentions that one Bhadrabahu solved in Kalpasutra, in 290 BCE, "the
so-called Pythagorean theorem."
    The title of the translation is "Science in Medieval World."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU  Thu Jun 17 20:47:12 1999
From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph G. Walser)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 16:47:12 -0400
Subject: Date of Nagarjuna
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.10.9906171535350.218-100000@c0459.wellcome.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227050807.23782.7156943390006967069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks, unfortunately I was (and still am) looking for recent discussions
in Japanese sources. Mabbett's article is great, but he has very few
references to non-Western language scholarship on this issue. I was just
wondering if anyone had dealt with this problem in Japan after Ichimura's
article (1991?).

 On Thu, 17 Jun 1999, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> See Ian Mabbett, "The problem of the historical Nagarjuna revisited",
>         JAOS 118 (1998): 332-46.
>
> --
> Dominik Wujastyk
>

Joseph Walser
Dept. of Comparative Religion
Tufts University
Medford, MA.
(617) 627-2322
fax: (617) 627-3191




From torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT  Thu Jun 17 17:08:25 1999
From: torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT (Raffaele Torella)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 18:08:25 +0100
Subject: looking for article
In-Reply-To: <3764AF8B.7CE5D4BB@univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <161227050798.23782.5513041032479285011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Birgit,
I have an off-print of this article, kindly sent by Ashok himself some
years ago. If you have not managed to get it as yet, I am ready to send you
a copy right now.

Sincerely yours,
Raffaele

Prof. Raffaele Torella
Chair of Sanskrit
Dipartimento di Studi Orientali
Universita di Roma 'La Sapienza'
fax 0039 06 4451209




From vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jun 17 23:54:54 1999
From: vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM (Martin Epstein)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 19:54:54 -0400
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227050811.23782.8493128907596871412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

unsubscribe


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From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 18 01:50:11 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 99 21:50:11 -0400
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
Message-ID: <161227050814.23782.7125114833396485791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have neared or exceeded this month's quota of messages. In order to tie up
some loose ends, if Dominik would allow me to use up next month's by a
couple, here we go.

In a message dated 6/17/99 2:21:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM writes:

> There's nothing in this post or the one before this
>  that precludes an exclusive geographic connotation as
>  opposed, for example, to the linguistic one.

How will one understand the term palkalaiyOn2 as applied to a zrIvaiSNava?
Will that description have any bearing on the issue? Thanks.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU  Thu Jun 17 22:23:49 1999
From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 00:23:49 +0200
Subject: Original Dravidian Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050839.23782.14361080980160484566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Does Hungarian meny (a kind of fish) and menny (heaven)
>come from a verb something to do with brightness or shining?

To my best knowledge not. (Though you can say lightning with 'menny' also in
hungarian, but they are plain compounds: 'mennyko' (heaven-stone) and
'mennyd?rg?s' (heaven-thunder).)

Regards,
Ferenc




From arul_kumaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 18 11:54:10 1999
From: arul_kumaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (arul kumaresan)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 06:54:10 -0500
Subject: Date of Nagarjuna
Message-ID: <161227050821.23782.2741318297153233773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Walser,

Does Mabbett's article talk about Kanchipuram as Nagarjuna I's place?
Thanks.



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From arul_kumaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 18 11:59:48 1999
From: arul_kumaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (arul kumaresan)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 06:59:48 -0500
Subject: Date of Nagarjuna
Message-ID: <161227050823.23782.2490554209402029417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Walser,

Does Mabbet's article talk of Kanchipuram as Nagarjuna I's place?
Thanks.


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM  Fri Jun 18 11:42:12 1999
From: vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM (Martin Epstein)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 07:42:12 -0400
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227050818.23782.14008292534169006426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

unsubscribe


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From umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA  Fri Jun 18 16:26:18 1999
From: umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (Kristen Anne Hardy)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 11:26:18 -0500
Subject: One Year Term Position at University of Manitoba (Religion)
Message-ID: <161227050827.23782.11845253491375624692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

                        The Department of Religion
                        The University of Manitoba
                          One Year Term Position

The Department of Religion at the University of Manitoba is pleased to invite
applications for a one-year term appointment at the rank of Instructor I. The
appointment will extend from September 1, 1999 to August 31, 2000. The salary
for this position is $32,384.00 [Canadian]. The areas of specialization are:
Hinduism/World Religion. The successful candidates must have a Ph.D. by the
commencement of the appointment.

The successful candidate for this position must have specialization and a record
of publications in Hinduism and demonstrated teaching competence in Hinduism and
World Religions. Duties include 18 Credit Hours teaching (two sections of 20.132
*Introduction to World Religions* and one section of 20.266 *Religions of Indian
Origin*). The Department is seeking a strong teacher with successful experience
teaching *Introduction to World Religions* and other courses with an Indian
religion and culture focus. Experience teaching Women and Religion courses will
be an asset.

The Department of Religion at The University of Manitoba offers undergraduate
Majors and Honors, M.A. and Ph.D. programs. Normal teaching load for Instuctor
positions is 18 Credit Hours per week.

The University of Manitoba encourages applications from qualified women and men,
including members of visible minorities, aboriginal peoples, and persons with
disabilities. Women are particularly encouraged to apply. In accordance with
Canadian Immigration requirements, this advertisement is directed to Canadian
citizens and permanent residents.

Application, curriculum vitae and three letters of reference should be sent to
Dr. Dawne McCance, Head, Department of Religion, 327 Fletcher Argue, The
University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, R3T 2N2.

Closing date for receipt of applications and letters of reference is 29 June,
1999.




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 18 19:04:50 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 12:04:50 -0700
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
In-Reply-To: <d1a3265d.249979e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227050836.23782.7504621130416635187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think Patricia Mumme has researched this
issue best. Here's what she writes:

  Scholars of Srivaisnavism have generally traced
  the origin of the Tenkalai/Vatakalai schism to a
  breakup of the Ubhaya Vedanta synthesis when the
  northern school began giving relatively more
  importance to Sanskrit sources -- the Sribhashya
  and/or dharma-sastra -- while the southern school
  stressed the Tamil scriptures -- the Nalayira Divya
  Prabandham.  However, certain anomalies suggest
  that the doctrinal differences between the two
  schools cannot be satisfactorily explained by
  their differing emphases on Sanskrit vs. Tamil,
  Sribhashya vs. Nalayira Divya Prabandham, or
  dharma-sastra vs. Nalayira Divya Prabandham. The
  Nalayira Divya Prabandham does not obviously
  support the Tenkalai position against that of the
  Vatakalai on most issues -- at least not without
  a great deal of selective interpretation.  The
  Srirangam acaryas themselves admit that there are
  many passages in the Alvars' hymns which seem at
  variance with their views.  The Srirangam acaryas
  seem to make more use of the Sanskrit epics and
  puranas than do the Kanci acaryas.  Pancaratra
  scriptures are quoted frequently by both schools;
  they figure more prominently in the disputed
  issues than dharma-sastra per se and at least
  as prominently as the Sribhashya.

        [p. 7, The Srivaisnava Theological Dispute]

She goes on to show how a simplistic language-based
division cannot explain the origin of the sects, and
that the differing cultural milieus of Kanchi and
Srirangam provide a better background for understanding
the divide.

Recall that in the period just preceding the formal
split (i.e., when it became mutually recognized
in the 16th and 17th centuries), the main "Vadagalai"
centers were the Parakala Matha in Tirupati/Melkote,
and the Tatacharyas who live mostly around Kancipuram
and Tirupati.  As you are well aware, this region
is the northern edge of the Tamil country (the Alvars
repeatedly call Tirupati as "vata venkatam").  The
main Tengalai centers were Srirangam and Alvar Tirunagari.

Regarding your comment about the Prabandham cantors
being Tengalai and the Veda cantors being Vadagalai:
this is mostly the result of recent court judgments.
In many places, all the cantors will be exclusively one
or the other sect, once again, as a result of court
judgments.  In Tiruvahindrapuram, both Prabandham
and Veda cantors are Vadagalai. In Tiruvallikkeni, both
are Tengalai. In Tirupati and Melkote, both are mixed.
In Kanchipuram, there is a split similar to Srirangam.
In other words, the example cited does not tell the
whole story, as there are many examples to the contrary.

Mani




From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU  Fri Jun 18 16:55:09 1999
From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph G. Walser)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 12:55:09 -0400
Subject: Date of Nagarjuna
In-Reply-To: <19990618115948.61848.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050831.23782.10611458893425820581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Kumaresan,
No. Do you know of any sources placing him there?
-j

On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, arul kumaresan wrote:

> Dear Dr. Walser,
>
> Does Mabbet's article talk of Kanchipuram as Nagarjuna I's place?
> Thanks.
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>

Joseph Walser
Dept. of Comparative Religion
Tufts University
Medford, MA.
(617) 627-2322
fax: (617) 627-3191




From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU  Fri Jun 18 16:57:28 1999
From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph G. Walser)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 12:57:28 -0400
Subject: Yajna Sri Satkarni
Message-ID: <161227050833.23782.251285990166178582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone out there know of a reliable discussion of the dates for
Yajna-Sri Satkarni?

Joseph Walser
Dept. of Comparative Religion
Tufts University
Medford, MA.
(617) 627-2322
fax: (617) 627-3191




From JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Fri Jun 18 12:17:30 1999
From: JHOUBEN at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 13:17:30 +0100
Subject: program Soma-Haoma workshop, 3-4 July, Leiden
Message-ID: <161227050816.23782.13621185902362904686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Program of the workshop

The Soma-Haoma Cult in Early Vedism and Zoroastrism: Archeology, Text, and
Ritual

to be held at Leiden University, 3-4 July.

Saturday 3 July
10.00 - 10.15 Opening by Prof. Dr. J.C. Heesterman
10.15 - 11.00 Dr. W. Vogelsang (Leiden Univ., Research school CNWS): "The
Advent of the Indo-Iranians: the Minefield of Archeological Interpretation"

11.15 - 12.00 Dr. A.F. de Jong (Leiden Univ., Fac. of Theology): "Triple Haoma
in the Development of Zoroastrian Traditions."
12.00 - 13.00 Prof. Dr. V.I. Sarianidi (Moscow, Institute of Archeology) on
archeological findings in Margiana and the Haoma-Soma cult.

14.30 - 15.30 Prof. Dr. H. Falk (Berlin, Freie Universitaet): "Decent drugs
for decent societies: Some candidates for Soma in the light of Avestan and
Vedic literature."

15.45 - 16.15 Dr. J. Houben (Leiden Univ., Kern Institute): "The anjahsava:
simplified or more original soma-pressing? On the structure and development of
the Soma-Haoma ritual."

16.15 - 17.00 Drs Friso Smit (Utrecht University, Dep. of Medicinal
Chemistry): "The Soma-Haoma problem from Ethnofarmacognostical perspective."

***

Sunday 4 July

10.30 - 11.30 The Zoroastrian Yasna ceremony: a recent performance (video-tape)
11.30 - 13.30 General discussion on:
- facts, ethics and romantics in research on ancient sacred drinks;
- designing experiments to test Soma/Haoma candidates;
- implications of recent archeological findings for our understanding of
people, cultures and languages in Central and South Asia, ca. 2000 - 1000 B.C.

***

For more information and registration please contact
(0)71-5272951 / email: jhouben at rullet.leidenuniv.nl




From bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Fri Jun 18 13:10:22 1999
From: bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Volker Thewalt)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 15:10:22 +0200
Subject: None
In-Reply-To: <001101beb97f$9c573a60$5ae16dd1@#vyasa>
Message-ID: <161227050824.23782.8459135569642422106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You should send your request to the listserver and
not to the list itself !!

At 07:42 18.06.99 -0400, you wrote:
>    unsubscribe

Best regards,
Volker Thewalt
---------------------------------
       LaserSatz  Thewalt
       Dr. Volker Thewalt
         Kapellenweg 8
       D-69257 Wiesenbach
fon 06223/970122 fax 06223/970123
     http://www.thewalt.de
     http://www.w3pro.de
     http://www.uebersatz.de
     e-mail: vt at thewalt.de
---------------------------------




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Fri Jun 18 22:50:56 1999
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 18:50:56 -0400
Subject: Studies on mudrA-s in tantric texts
Message-ID: <161227050845.23782.3992173685860802212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could the experts on tantra-s point me to some studies about mudrA-s
in the Sivaite and Visnuite tantra-s? I have consulted Padoux's "Vac",
Gonda's "Medieval religious literature in Sanskrit" and Potter's
bibliography. The only studies which seem to be interesting are in
Italian or French and I can't read either. I'd be grateful if someone
can point me to some studies in the English. I already have Richard
Davis': "Ritual in an oscillating universe". Unfortunately, it has
only information on mudrA-s from Sivaite sources and that too the ones
used in temples. I need some studies on the mudrA-s used before/during
private ritual practices like japa, pUjA, etc. Thanks in advance.

Aside: Anyone notice that there seem to be quite a few characters
using hotmail/yahoo/name-a-free-e-mail-account who are very interested
in the same things  like establishing Nagarjuna's connection with
Kanchi, Kannada and Telugu etymologies, so on and so forth. One man
goes out and another steps in, in no time at all (referring to a
recent reply to Dr. Walser). Very much like the raktabIja in the
mythology :->. Just wondering!

Rama




From cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM  Sat Jun 19 01:19:58 1999
From: cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 19:19:58 -0600
Subject: indian art history in south india
Message-ID: <161227050843.23782.14417457763874779659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,
I would like to find out information about graduate programs in Indian art
history or related topics in south india.  In particular I am interested to
know if such a program exists at the University of Madras or in the Tamil
Nadu generally.  I am also interested in any such programs in the south of
India generally.  Any information as to whom or where I might contact would
be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Benjamin Fleming




From HubeyH at MAIL.MONTCLAIR.EDU  Sat Jun 19 00:56:42 1999
From: HubeyH at MAIL.MONTCLAIR.EDU (H. Mark Hubey)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 20:56:42 -0400
Subject: Original Dravidian Homeland
Message-ID: <161227050848.23782.3159743968503104953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ferenc Ruzsa wrote:
>
> >Does Hungarian meny (a kind of fish) and menny (heaven)
> >come from a verb something to do with brightness or shining?
>
> To my best knowledge not. (Though you can say lightning with 'menny' also in
> hungarian, but they are plain compounds: 'mennyko' (heaven-stone) and
> 'mennyd?rg?s' (heaven-thunder).)

I wanted to keep out of this, but this word can be connected with
minngi (Karachay-Balkar mountain name as in Minngi TAu) and something
like
Minngir (or Mungur) from one of the Nilo-Saharan languages which denotes
something like a god that lives in the sky or in high places or is the
name
of a mountain where a god (sky god lives). I think I read it in a book
or article relating to NS or Dravidian.
--
Sincerely,
M. Hubey
hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu
http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey




From yaap at XS4ALL.NL  Fri Jun 18 22:06:26 1999
From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 99 00:06:26 +0200
Subject: CSX+ fonts & cross-platform email exchange
Message-ID: <161227050841.23782.9574928689595656691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 Jaap Pranger wrote:


>Windows and Mac versions of the CSX+ fonts seem to have
>identical encodings, in contrast to what is usual.
>
>Data based on CSX+ fonts, when exchanged across platforms
>through email, gets scrambled due to the usual automagical
>MIME re-encoding.
>
>Any workarounds for this problem?


Andreas Prilop provided me with an elegant solution that works
quite well with the Eudora mail client on a Mac.


<Andreas Prilop>

Get Eudora Standard Tables
  info-mac/comm/inet/mail/edr/eudora-standard-tables.hqx
from any Info-Mac mirror.

For outgoing mail, deselect any transcoding ("transliteration").
For incoming mail, select "Repair ISO-Latin-1".

For background information, see also
<http://www.hf.uib.no/smi/files/eudtab.html>

</Andreas Prilop>



This is the table that does the trick:

# "Repair ISO-Latin-1"
Repair (i.e. restore) an incoming message that has been converted
automatically but incorrectly from ISO-Latin-1 to MacRoman.


Jaap Pranger

--




From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM  Sat Jun 19 11:32:22 1999
From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 99 07:32:22 -0400
Subject: Draft Indic transliteration scheme on the Web
Message-ID: <161227050850.23782.284095835966199858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues

The essentials of the draft standard for transliteration of Indic scripts
may be seen in plain text form at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trdis01.htm

This is a simplified presentation, not using Indic characters. 

Apologies to any who receive this message more than once.
Regards,   Tony Stone

Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of
Indic scripts.   
  Thinking aloud on  transliteration:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm




From das at NETCOM.COM  Sat Jun 19 19:26:48 1999
From: das at NETCOM.COM (Das Devaraj)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 99 12:26:48 -0700
Subject: Linguistic KB (was Re: Original Dravidian Homeland)
In-Reply-To: <003b01beb723$39897280$0251b59d@dial.elte.hu>
Message-ID: <161227050852.23782.18296010975485726030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Ferenc Ruzsa wrote:
> considering the speed of linguistic change, we cannot meaningfully talk of
> any language family before ca. 8 000 BCE. (I joust doubled the period we
> have some knowledge of.)

So that puts 4000 BCE (or 6000 years ago) as the upper limit
of the currently known linguistic knowledge base. Is there a
way to quantify the level of certainty (mentioned in the email
quoted as "some knowledge") of this knowledge base?

I have noticed an _apparent 6000 year bias_ in Indology,
Egyptology and in other areas as well, in dating monuments,
events, activities etc. Is the above mentioned upper limit
the reason?

das devaraj




From vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sat Jun 19 21:20:54 1999
From: vyasa at IX.NETCOM.COM (Martin Epstein)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 99 17:20:54 -0400
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <161227050854.23782.14245820704330928386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>




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From deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG  Sun Jun 20 11:23:05 1999
From: deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG (Tein Network)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 99 07:23:05 -0400
Subject: Buddhism's Links Early Chrisianity
Message-ID: <161227050861.23782.13306417507207262279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

June 20, 1999

RE: In Search of Contact Point for
    Authors: Elmar R.Gruber &
    Holger Kersten in Germany (?)
    "The Original Jesus:The Buddhist Sources Of Christianity"

Hi Everyone,

Can anyone please give me an email address or a contact address
for the authors of the book "The Original Jesus: The Buddhist
Sources of Christianity" by Elmar R. Gruber & Holger Kersten,
Element Books, 1995 ?

This is a rather interesting book with plausible hypothesis
about the link between early Christianity and Buddhism particularly
in the Greek dominated world of 300 BC to 100 AD.

Anyone who has read this book carefully and can send me any discussions,
comments, or scholarly critiques would be highly appreciated.

Thank you.


Avi Dey,
nsw3
Vienna, VA, USA




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Sun Jun 20 09:03:02 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 99 11:03:02 +0200
Subject: Manuscripts of various Sulbasutras
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9906191104.A8949-0100000@netcom12>
Message-ID: <161227050857.23782.18129478813389282624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear listmembers,

I have been looking at references to manuscripts of different
Sulbasutras and maybe someone can help me out in this respect.
In their 1983 translation of Baudhayana, Apastamba, Katyayana
and Manava Sulbasutras Sen and Bag mention other Sulbasutras
in their introduction.  Amongst those other Sulbas mentioned are
the Varaha and Vadhula Sulbasutras.  Later Sen and Bag writes
that they have not been able to locate manuscripts for other
Sulbasutras and the 4 above-mentioned and that the other Sulbas
are known only through references.

Now, this confuses me, because N.K. Mazumdar mentions in a
1922 article two manuscripts of the Varaha Sulbasutra and that the
Vadhula Srautasutra was discovered in Madras.  Also in his book
"Science of the Sulba" B. Datta mentions one manuscript of the
Varaha Sulba.

Does anyone know of these manuscripts and the reason why Sen
and Bag writes they were unable to locate them?

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jun 20 15:51:32 1999
From: clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Carlos Lopez)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 99 11:51:32 -0400
Subject: Manuscripts of various Sulbasutras
In-Reply-To: <199906200910.LAA29861@bednorz.get2net.dk>
Message-ID: <161227050863.23782.12219349670539593816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A critical edition of VAdhla ZS is being prepared by Prof.  Y. Ikari in
kyoto.  He has published two sections of the edition so far.  VZS 1.1-1.4
(agnyAdheya and punarAdheya sections) and 1.5-1.6 (agnihotra and
agnyupasthAna sections).  He has worked with several MSS including that
which was available to Caland (a devanagri MSS from Madrfas) and with other
mss in Malayalam

Kashikar in his Survey of ZS notes that there was another mss of Varaha ZS
at the Oriental Insitute of Baroda which was nto available to the editors of
the ZS, namely caland and raghuvira.  You may want to consult the edition of
caland and raghuvira (Varaha-Srauta-Sutra; being the main ritualistic Sutra
of the
Maitrayani Sakha. Critically edited for the first time [withMantra index].
By W. Caland and Raghu Vira.
[Lahore, India, Mehar Chand Lachhman Das], 1933.) to check on MSS since the
1933 edition is certainly after the 1922 article.

Carlos Lopez
Harvard U
Dept of Sanskrit




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Toke
> Lindegaard Knudsen
> Sent: Sunday, June 20, 1999 5:03 AM
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> Subject: Manuscripts of various Sulbasutras
>
>
> Dear listmembers,
>
> I have been looking at references to manuscripts of different
> Sulbasutras and maybe someone can help me out in this respect.
> In their 1983 translation of Baudhayana, Apastamba, Katyayana
> and Manava Sulbasutras Sen and Bag mention other Sulbasutras
> in their introduction.  Amongst those other Sulbas mentioned are
> the Varaha and Vadhula Sulbasutras.  Later Sen and Bag writes
> that they have not been able to locate manuscripts for other
> Sulbasutras and the 4 above-mentioned and that the other Sulbas
> are known only through references.
>
> Now, this confuses me, because N.K. Mazumdar mentions in a
> 1922 article two manuscripts of the Varaha Sulbasutra and that the
> Vadhula Srautasutra was discovered in Madras.  Also in his book
> "Science of the Sulba" B. Datta mentions one manuscript of the
> Varaha Sulba.
>
> Does anyone know of these manuscripts and the reason why Sen
> and Bag writes they were unable to locate them?
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Sincerely,
> Toke Lindegaard Knudsen
>




From suji at HOME.COM  Sun Jun 20 16:22:35 1999
From: suji at HOME.COM (Stephens)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 99 12:22:35 -0400
Subject: Cape Comorin (Kanyakumari) in Greek Texts
Message-ID: <161227050868.23782.3250653129434918363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I recall reading somewhere that Cape Comorin is talked about in some old
(1st or 2nd Cent B.C.) Greek texts. Could someone please tell me who writes
about Cape and in which book?

Thanks.

Sujatha Stephen




From knagata at BUN.KYOTO-U.AC.JP  Sun Jun 20 09:30:28 1999
From: knagata at BUN.KYOTO-U.AC.JP (Keisuke NAGATA)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 99 18:30:28 +0900
Subject: Chambaa vaMzaavalii
Message-ID: <161227050859.23782.16737321561151383098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members.


I'm Keisuke Nagata, graduate student of Kyoto University.

I have an interest in king's chronology of ancient/medieval
India.(ex. RaajataraGgiNii, vaMzaavaliis)

I'm now studying vaMzaavalii, and inscriptions of Chambaa
state,  collected by J.Ph.Vogel. But I'm suffring from
insufficiency of informations about this field.

Would you tell me about some instractive advice, or
specialist about this matter ?

I'll welcome any information about (Chambaa)vaMzaavaliis.


Sincerely yours.
------------------------------------
Keisuke NAGATA (DC 2)
Dept.of History of Indian Philosophy
Graduate School of Letters
Kyoto University
e-mail: knagata at bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 21 00:37:25 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 99 20:37:25 -0400
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
Message-ID: <161227050870.23782.12253479533925817475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many thanks to Mani Varadarajan for the quote from Trish Mumme's book. From
that, I gather that Trish has not addressed the literal meaning of vaTakalai
and ten2kalai. I think that  to be precise  one has to explore three things
separately.
(1) literal meaning of group names
(2) Imagined characteristics/differences
(3) Real characteristics/differences

Naming of a group is often based on (2) and so one would expect a strong link
between (1) and (2). On the other hand, the link between (2)and (3) can be
weak or strong or even non-existent. (Examples are the South Indian caste
names Ariyavaiciyar or kshatriya nAtAr.)

What I have done is to establish first the literal meaning of vaTakalai and
ten2kalai. From that I suggest what item (2) is. And then show a possible
link between (2) and (3). What Mani Varadarajan and Lakshmi Srinivasan  seem
to be doing is just the reverse process. They start with (3) as the basis and
ultimately derive a geographic meaning for the terms assuming a strong link
between  (3) and (1). But, even in their case, the explanation of the literal
meaning of the term "kalai" has to be justifiably demonstrated as "type" or
"category" in the zrIvaiSNava usage outside of the two terms "vaTakalai" and
"ten2kalai".

It was to do this that I asked them to explain how they would interpret the
term "palkalaiyOn2" as applied to a zrIvaiSNava and I asked them if they
considered this term as relevant to the current discussion. Since they have
not responded so far, I do not know what their thinking on this is. However,
my questions were not simply theoretical. They are based on what I feel is a
critically important inscription in Srirangam temple.
                           (continued on the next post)

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 21 00:37:28 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 99 20:37:28 -0400
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (4)
Message-ID: <161227050872.23782.8753871850716195195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The inscription is SII, vol 24, no. 523 from 1617 AD. It describes rAmAnuja 
as "palkalaiyOr tAmen2n2a vantu an2aittulakum vAzap piRantu ten2n2aragkar 
celvam muRRum tiruttivittu pon2n2aragkamen2n2il mayalE perukum svAmi 
emperumAn2Ar..". The inscription was engraved by a ten2kalai person. Based on 
Lakshmi Srinivas' date of the beginning of the use of the terms vaTakalai and 
ten2kalai as 16th century, this inscription gives an example of the use of 
"kalai" after the start of that usage. Moreover, it refers not to any 
ordinary zrIvaiSNava but to rAmAnuja himself.  The inscription also mentions 
"svAmi zrIbhASyakArarukku tiruvuLLamAyirukkiRa inta polika polikai 
tiruvAymozi
".

Let us see if "kalai" as used here can have any geographical connotation. The 
geographical connotation could be based on the following
- place of nativity (north or south Tamilnadu)
- headquarters of the teacher lineage (Kanci or Srirangam)
- vaTama or cOziya brahminhood

Tamil "palkalai" is a compound of "pal" and "kalai". "pal" means "many". 
"kalai" cannot be based on the place of birth because one cannot have many 
places of birth. The different lineages of Srirangam and Kanci are 
post-rAmAnuja. So "kalai" cannot be based on the geography of kanci or 
Srirangam. Since one can belong to only one of vaTama and cOziya brahmin 
groups, the use of "many" to describe "kalai" rules out the third possibility 
also.  

rAmAnuja is recognized in the inscription as one who wrote the zrIbhASya and 
also as one who loved the tiruvAymozi.  Given this and all my earlier 
discussions, it is obvious hat the term "palkalaiyOr" refers to rAmAnuja as 
well-versed in many texts (Sanskrit and Tamil). Indeed, I would take it as 
referring to him as ubhayavedAntin. Although, the term "irukalai" ("iru" 
means two) as used by periyAzvAr could be considered even a closer match , 
since Tamil does not have the dual number category, even "palkalai" can 
represent "ubhayavedAnta".

Thus the usage of "kalai" in this inscription rules out any traditional 
attribution of geographic connotation to the terms, vaTakalai and ten2kalai.

Finally, since apparently not many list members are interested in these 
discussions, considering the limit on posting, I would not mind any responses 
off the list.


Regards
S. Palaniappan




From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP  Sun Jun 20 16:07:05 1999
From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 99 01:07:05 +0900
Subject: Mojikyo fonts for Mac available
In-Reply-To: <199906191615.BAA17669@tke.att.ne.jp>
Message-ID: <161227050866.23782.4834525730340990552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I shall post this message to some mailing lists to which I participate.
Please forgive me if you receive more than one copy of this message.

================

Hello,

I am happy to announce that the Mojikyo fonts converted for the use on Mac
are now available online, at:

http://www.mojikyo.gr.jp/mac/index.htm

The ReadMe's are only in Japanese (I was meaning to translate them into
English, but I had not time...  I shall do it when I shall have some time),
so here are some basic notes on Mojikyo and the use of Mac fonts:

First, some warnings about the download:

1.  The download file urls are:
http://www.mojikyo.gr.jp/mac/FONT1_9.HQX
http://www.mojikyo.gr.jp/mac/FONT_21.HQX
http://www.mojikyo.gr.jp/mac/NBLIST.HQX
http://www.mojikyo.gr.jp/mac/TBLIST.HQX
http://www.mojikyo.gr.jp/mac/DISPLAY.HQX
http://www.mojikyo.gr.jp/mac/NEXLIST.HQX
http://www.mojikyo.gr.jp/mac/TEXLIST.HQX

2.  The two first files, containing the fonts, are very big (33MB and 18MB)
-- so please have patience when you download them.  You will have to put all
the font suitcases in the Font folder, in the System Folder, and restart the
computer to be able to use them.

3.  NBLIST.HQX and NEXLIST.HQX contain files to be used with the
word-processing program named "Nisus Writer"; and TBLIST.HQX and TEXLIST.HQX
contain files to be used with the shareware editor named "Tex-Edit Plus"
(please see below on the contents of these "character list files").  If you
don't have neither of them, it would be better to download at least Tex-Edit
Plus before downloading the fonts and the character list files.  Anyway, you
don't need to download all of these four files: if you have Nisus Writer (or
if you intend to use it), I recommend to download the Nisus files;
otherwise, the files for Tex-Edit Plus will be sufficient.

4.  DISPLAY.HQX contains a very little AppleScript utility script which may
be useful when using Mojikyo fonts.

---------------------

Mojikyo, or more precisely Konjaku Mojikyo, i.e. the "Mirror of characters
of old and new days", is a new, really revolutionary system of Kanji
(Chinese characters) handling in the personal computing which has been
developped and released in Japan.  Mojikyo consists essentially of many
TrueType fonts for the Japanese version of Windows (95/98 or NT) --
containing up to 80000 characters (all the Chinese characters in the
Dictionary of Morohashi are there; there are also many Vietnamese
characters, Korean characters, "Oracle Bone" characters (kookotsu-bun) and
Siddham characters), and of a very fine finding program, which allows to
retrieve easily characters of which you don't know the pronounciation, etc.
The fonts can be downloaded free of charge; and a simplified finding
program is also available free of charge at the Mojikyo web site (the
complete finding program is a commercial product).  Mojikyo is also an open
system, meaning that it is possible to add any number of new characters in
the system.  The users (who will become members of the association "Mojikyo
Institute") can report new characters; new TrueType fonts for these
characters will be provided by the Mojikyo Institute.

As a member of the Association "Mojikyo Institute", and having been allowed
by the copyright owner of Mojikyo system (AI Net Corporation), I converted
the fonts (using a shaware utility named TrueKeys), and made other Mac files
contained in the web site.

The Mac fonts are Shif-JIS fonts; you can use them if you have Japanese
Language Kit, or if you use Mac OS 8.5 or later.

The Mac version does not contain the finding program (neither the complete,
commercial one, nor the simplified one); instead, I made two series of
character list files to be used with Nisus Writer or Tex-Edit Plus.  Nisus
Writer is a very fine multilingual word-processing program for Mac; its old
version (4.1.x) is distributed freely by Nisus Software (cf.
http://www.nisus.com/nisusdl/login1.asp?new=yes&product=nw416).  Tex-Edit
Plus is a multilingual editor supporting AppleScript; it is a shareware
program that can be downloaded from http://www.bridge1.com (or probably any
Info Mac mirror...).

For each of these programs, there are two folders:
bushu2                  (NBLIST.HQX and TBLIST.HQX)
and
extradaikanwa2          (NEXLIST.HQX and TEXLIST.HQX)

The folder "bushu2" contains a list of all the characters in the Morohashi
Dictionary of Chinese characters [called usually "Morohashi Daikanwa jiten"]
(some 50,000 characters or more), divided into 214 files, corresponding to
214 bushu's or radicals.  Inside each radical, the characters are listed
according to the number of strokes.  The numbering of characters is the same
as the one used in the Morohashi Dictionary.  This folder contains also a
file named "Index of Bushu", and a folder with some utility macros (for
Nisus Writer) or AppleScript scripts (for Tex-Edit Plus).

The other folder, "extradaikanwa2" contains a list of other characters than
those in the Morohashi Dictionary, which are contained in the Mojikyo fonts.
This list is divided according to the number of fonts (each font is divided
into several files). Very unfortunately, there is almost no order at all in
these "Extra-Daikanwa" characters (no order other than the Mojikyo
numbering).  You can however browse these files; you can also find
characters if you have the Mojikyo numbers of given characters.

I know that these files are not very helpful when you want to find a
character (especially if it is a "extra-Daikanwa" character...).  I made
them, hoping that it is better to have them than nothing at all.  I hope
that there will be a better finding system for Mac some day -- but I cannot
promise anything right now.

I would like to add that the two big projects, one Taiwanese and the other
Japanese, of inputting Taisho Buddhist Canon into e-texts (cf.
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/cbeta/ and http://www.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~sat/), and
also the Japanese database of Buddhist studies
(http://www.kt.rim.or.jp/~inbuds/) use Mojikyo numbers to represent the
"gaiji's" (characters other than those contained in the standard character
sets, like JIS, Big5 or Unicode...).

If you have any problem or difficulty to use these fonts and files (or
macros/AppleScript scripts) for Mac, please write me.

Nobumi Iyanaga
(n-iyanag at ppp.bekkoame.ne.jp)

P.S.  There will be other formats of Mojikyo fonts -- especially Mojikyo
fonts for TeX.  They will be soon available at the Mojikyo web site.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Jun 21 06:29:04 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 99 07:29:04 +0100
Subject: Linguistic KB (was Re: Original Dravidian Homeland)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9906191104.A8949-0100000@netcom12>
Message-ID: <161227050880.23782.9147807278928300687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Das Devaraj wrote:

> So that puts 4000 BCE (or 6000 years ago) as the upper limit
> of the currently known linguistic knowledge base. Is there a
> way to quantify the level of certainty (mentioned in the email
> quoted as "some knowledge") of this knowledge base?

Do you have good reasons to disagree with the techniques for linguistic
chronometrics and language drift discussed, for instance, in Renfrew's old
book Archaeology and Language, and the sources he refers to?

All the best,
Dominik




From swantham at TECHPARK.NET  Mon Jun 21 02:16:09 1999
From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 99 07:46:09 +0530
Subject: Book Release
Message-ID: <161227050875.23782.4491287343038889996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,
Dr.V.R.Prabodhachandran Nair, former Prof. &  Head of the Dept. of
Linguistics has written an interesting title.
MALAYALAM FOR BEGINNERS
The formal release of the book will be held at Vivekananda Hall in
Trivandrum at 5.30 pm on the 25th of this month. All are welcome.
With regards,
Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair,
Dept. of Sanskrit,
University of Kerala.




From balakrishnanraju at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 21 09:09:05 1999
From: balakrishnanraju at HOTMAIL.COM (balakrishnan raju)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 99 09:09:05 +0000
Subject: Cape Comarin(Kanyakumari)in Greek Texts
Message-ID: <161227050877.23782.6595679173260736677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Reply to Sujatha Stephe's querry.
Periplus of Erythraen Sea (A.D 100?) speaks of Comari(Kanyakumari) while
dealing with various harbours of Ancient Tamilnadu. The author of the above
work was an anonymous Greek merchant from Berenike on the Egyptian side of
the Red Sea Coast (R.A.Jairazbhoy,1963:p116).
Regards.
R.Balakrishnan.


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From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Jun 21 08:57:42 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 99 09:57:42 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN]  Posting frequency
Message-ID: <161227050884.23782.14246951721266627406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

We have imposed a posting limit of 3 messages per day per person on the
INDOLOGY list.  This is considered to be a very high upper limit, just to
slice off the very worst abuses.  It recognises that sometimes when a
specialist topic comes up, the rapid exchange of several messages over a
couple of days can be appropriate.

If you post an average of more than one message every two days (15 per
month) you are likely to receive an "over-posting" warning at the end of a
month. Three warnings -> membership cancellation.

Best wishes,
--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From knagata at BUN.KYOTO-U.AC.JP  Mon Jun 21 06:02:01 1999
From: knagata at BUN.KYOTO-U.AC.JP (Keisuke NAGATA)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 99 15:02:01 +0900
Subject: Chambaa vaMzaavalii
In-Reply-To: <000101bebb35$15937a40$8d2cf78c@default.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227050882.23782.14003789867743906725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Prof. Carlos Lopez.

> I dont know if you had a chance to speak to professor Witzel.  He is or was
> just recently in Kyoto and was visiting Professor Ikari. He might be able
> guide you as to who is working in this field.

As your suggestion, Prof. Witzel is the best specialist
about vaMzaavaliis , as far as I know. I got a chance to
discuss vaMzaavaliis with him last December. And then, I
began to study Chambaa vaMzaavalii.

I'm now looking for more informations about Chamba state and
vaMzaavaliis.

Thank you for your kindly response.

Sincerely yours.
------------------------------------
Keisuke NAGATA (DC 2)
Dept.of History of Indian Philosophy
Graduate School of Letters
Kyoto University
e-mail: knagata at bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 21 23:50:43 1999
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 99 16:50:43 -0700
Subject: Cape Comorin (Kanyakumari) in Greek Texts
Message-ID: <161227050886.23782.10370955446368458816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I recall reading somewhere that Cape Comorin is talked about in some
>old (1st or 2nd Cent B.C.) Greek texts. Could someone please tell me
>who writes about Cape and in which book?

Dear Sujatha Stephen,

See:
Lionel Casson, The Periplus Maris Erythraei: text with
introduction, translation and commentary, Princeton university
press, 1989

Klaus Karttunen, a) India in early Greek literature,
Finnish Oriental Society, 1989
b) India and the Hellenistic world, Finnish Oriental Society,
1997

Regards,
V. Iyer


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From 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM  Tue Jun 22 10:16:39 1999
From: 103322.630 at COMPUSERVE.COM (Ulrich T. Kragh)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 06:16:39 -0400
Subject: Tenets, anyone?
Message-ID: <161227050891.23782.1773859141982438796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ms. Lyon asked about the "four schools of Tibetan Buddhist Tenets (grub
mtha')". In Tibetan doxography, four schools (grub mtha') of Indian
Buddhist philosophy are distinguished: Vaibasika, Sautrantika, Cittamatra
and Madhyamaka. This is different from the 'four schools of Tibetan
Buddhism': rnying ma, sa skya, bka' brgyud and dge lugs. It was not quite
clearly to me to which of these two sets of four you refer. Could you
please clarify?

You requested material concerning the Four Seals (phyag rgya bzhi) and
later in the mail you luckily specified the first as "All
compounded/produced phenonmena are impermanent". Be aware that Tibetan
Buddhism also speaks about the four Tantric seals, which are also called
phyag rgya bzhi, and these are quite a different story.

Sincerely,
Ulrich T. Kragh




From jage at LOC.GOV  Tue Jun 22 13:27:54 1999
From: jage at LOC.GOV (James E. Agenbroad)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 09:27:54 -0400
Subject: ACII, ISCII, Unicode [was: CSX+ fonts &c]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9906150928480.395-100000@pune.oriental.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227050896.23782.17462374689967957092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, John Smith wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Jaap Pranger wrote:
>
> > ...
> >
> > I venture to disagree where you say "like Unicode". The Unicode standard
> > only deals with character codes, and takes no care of the rendering.
>
> Sure. What I wrote was shorthand for "like any real-world Unicode
> implementation".
>
        Would it be fairer to say that as character encoding standards
neither Unicode nor ISCII provide the rendering software needed to create
all the glyphs needed to create legible visual versions o fDevanagari and
other Indian scripts?  It would seem the CDAC implementation of ISCII has
such rendering software; one hopes some implementations of Unicodealso do
so now and that others will in the future.

> > > Context sensitive rendering will also be available through UniScribe
> > (the Windows Unicode Script Processor) in Windows NT 5.0,
>
> This was news to me. Is there any indication of when an Indian-language
> renderer might appear?
>
> >
> > A few questions remain:
> >
> > What is the meaning of the acronym ACII?
>
> "Alphabetic Code for Information Interchange".

Is this equivalent to ASCII, the American national standard for
information interchange or its international counterpart, ISO 646?
>
> >
> > Since ISCII is an 8-bit standard, may I conclude that the 7-bit
> > Devanagari part of ACII is a -limited- version (subset) of ISCII?
>
> No, ISCII is a 7-bit standard. The first sentence of the published
> standard (IS 13194: 1991) runs, "The ISCII code specifies a 7-bit code
> table which can be used in 7 or 8-bit ISO compatible environment." Also
> note that ISCII is not restricted to Devanagari: it can represent any
> Brahmi-derived Indian script. It is quite an experience to see an aged
> MS-DOS computer effortlessly "converting" an on-screen piece of Indian
> text into script after script using CDAC's old product ALP (now available
> as ALPP -- ALP Personal -- for free download from their website).
>
> John Smith
>
> --
> Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
> Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
> Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
> Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html
>

     Regards,
          Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov )
     The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official
views of any government or any agency of any.
Phone: 202 707-9612; Fax: 202 707-0955; US mail: I.T.S. Dev.Gp.4, Library
of Congress, 101 Independence Ave. SE, Washington, D.C. 20540-9334 U.S.A.




From Pamela.Lyon at ANU.EDU.AU  Tue Jun 22 00:31:18 1999
From: Pamela.Lyon at ANU.EDU.AU (Pamela Lyon)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 10:01:18 +0930
Subject: Tenets, anyone?
Message-ID: <161227050889.23782.16889845424026020574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would appreciate any information on recent work (past five years or so)
on Tibetan Buddhist Tenets (grub mtha') or, more specifically, on the Four
Seals
(phyag rgya bzhi) -- theses, publications, anything.

My PhD research, recently begun, involves a critical, comparative analysis
of these foundational propositions from the Madhyamika viewpoint.  However,
I am
interested in work relating to the treatment by any of the 'four' schools
of Tenets of the philosophical issues contained within and/or implied by
the phyag rgy -- especially the first (All compounded/produced phenonmena
are impermanent).  I am particularly interested in:

causation/dependent origination
time/permanence/impermanence
ontology
Buddhist logic (esp. the catuskoti)

Any suggestions as to not-to-be-overlooked comparative (East-West)
scholarship also would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Pamela Lyon
* * * * * * * * *
Pamela Lyon
PhD Student
Asian History Centre                     ALSO: (as I am a distance student)
The Australian National University              20 Wellesley Avenue
Canberra, ACT  0200                             Evandale, SA  5069
Australia                                       Australia
Ph: +61 2 6279 8240                             Ph/fax: +61 8 8362 9324
Fax: +61 2 6279 8326                            pamelalyon at ozemail.com.au
Pamela.Lyon at anu.edu.au




From gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Tue Jun 22 16:37:39 1999
From: gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (GAIL COELHO)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 10:37:39 -0600
Subject: Linguistic KB
In-Reply-To: <376FF4BD.7945@martens.pp.se>
Message-ID: <161227050905.23782.16795277649314134092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'm not sure what your point is -- could you clarify please? How do you
use genetic evidence to reconstruct linguistic history or the migration of
*languages*? I'm not an expert in historical linguistics but I take talk
of an IndoEuropean homeland to mean that the *language*
Proto-Indo-European can be traced back to a particular region based on
linguistic evidence. This does suggest something about the migration of a
few people -- because they had to migrate to spread the language, but the
migration could have been limited to very few people (which need not have
had a great impact on biological-genetic relationships) and more
importantly, these people need not have actually travelled all the way
from the homeland to the entire region in which Indo-European languages
are found. E.g. a few people could have carried PIE to regions immediately
surrounding the homeland. Then a few *other* people could have carried
descendent dialects/languages of PIE to areas further away, and so on.
Thus biological relationships between people do not have to match
linguistic relationships between the languages they speak. And so
biological genetic relationships could not tell us much about the homeland
of a *language*.

Gail

On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Raoul Martens wrote:

> On Mon, 21 June 1999, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
>
> > Do you have good reasons to disagree with the techniques for linguist-
> > ic chronometrics and language drift discussed, for instance, Renfrew's > old book Archaeology and Language, and the sources he refers to?
>
>
> There certainly seems to be some such good reasons:
>
> 1) The theories of Renfrew & Gimbutas re. the 'Indo-European Homeland"
> have been efficiently refuted by geneticists Sokal, Oden and Thomson in
> 'Origins of the Indo-Europeans: Genetic evidence' in Proceedings of the
> National Academy of Sciences U.S.A. Vol. 89, 1992. The average correla-
> tion genes/language (GEN,LAN) 0.141 for 25 genesystems (incl. the ABO
> bloodgroups at 0.144) is statistically significant, whereas the corres-
> ponding values for Renfrew's/Gimbuta's models 0.060/0.067 are not.
>
> 2) A 'dendrite' of bloodgroup frequencies for 45 world populations in-
> dicates a central position for the Hindus with a direct link to Egypt,
> see Hirszfeld, Ludwik: Probleme der Blutgruppenforschung, Jena 1960.
>
> 3) In 'Indo-Europeans in the Middle East', Anthropological Linguistics
> Vol. 23, nr 6 1981 C.T. Hodge argues that 'Afro-Aryans' must have left
> Egypt for the Near (and Middle) East at the very latest 13.000 BC.
>
> 4. As often reported in the media mitochondrial DNA indicates that the
> whole world population descends from not very distant African ancestors.
>
> In view hereof and as the Cro-Magnons are commonly held to have had the
> ability of speach 40.000 BC no (re)constructed 'proto-language' apply-
> ing to 4000 BC appears to reflect the 'homeland' of any
> languagegroup.
> Sincerely
> Raoul Martens
>




From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU  Tue Jun 22 16:09:30 1999
From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph G. Walser)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 12:09:30 -0400
Subject: Buddhist sites in Vidarbha
Message-ID: <161227050908.23782.16332941412128762150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone know where I can find a list of Buddhist archaeological sites
in Vidarbha. Any help would be appreciated.

Joseph Walser
Dept. of Comparative Religion
Tufts University
Medford, MA.
(617) 627-2322
fax: (617) 627-3191




From raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE  Tue Jun 22 20:40:30 1999
From: raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE (Raoul Martens)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 13:40:30 -0700
Subject: Linguistic KB
Message-ID: <161227050893.23782.9504144418729567263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 21 June 1999, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> Do you have good reasons to disagree with the techniques for linguist-
> ic chronometrics and language drift discussed, for instance, Renfrew's > old book Archaeology and Language, and the sources he refers to?


There certainly seems to be some such good reasons:

1) The theories of Renfrew & Gimbutas re. the 'Indo-European Homeland"
have been efficiently refuted by geneticists Sokal, Oden and Thomson in
'Origins of the Indo-Europeans: Genetic evidence' in Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences U.S.A. Vol. 89, 1992. The average correla-
tion genes/language (GEN,LAN) 0.141 for 25 genesystems (incl. the ABO
bloodgroups at 0.144) is statistically significant, whereas the corres-
ponding values for Renfrew's/Gimbuta's models 0.060/0.067 are not.

2) A 'dendrite' of bloodgroup frequencies for 45 world populations in-
dicates a central position for the Hindus with a direct link to Egypt,
see Hirszfeld, Ludwik: Probleme der Blutgruppenforschung, Jena 1960.

3) In 'Indo-Europeans in the Middle East', Anthropological Linguistics
Vol. 23, nr 6 1981 C.T. Hodge argues that 'Afro-Aryans' must have left
Egypt for the Near (and Middle) East at the very latest 13.000 BC.

4. As often reported in the media mitochondrial DNA indicates that the
whole world population descends from not very distant African ancestors.

In view hereof and as the Cro-Magnons are commonly held to have had the
ability of speach 40.000 BC no (re)constructed 'proto-language' apply-
ing to 4000 BC appears to reflect the 'homeland' of any
languagegroup.
Sincerely
Raoul Martens




From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Tue Jun 22 13:51:07 1999
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 14:51:07 +0100
Subject: ACII, ISCII, Unicode [was: CSX+ fonts &c]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.05.9906220917040.135662-100000@rs8.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227050898.23782.8991968079472790668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, James E. Agenbroad wrote:

> > > What is the meaning of the acronym ACII?
> >
> > "Alphabetic Code for Information Interchange".
>
> Is this equivalent to ASCII, the American national standard for
> information interchange or its international counterpart, ISO 646?

No, it refers to an eight-bit system in which the bottom half is seven-bit
ASCII and the top half is seven-bit ISCII. This is the normal deployment
of ISCII.

John Smith

--
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223
335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From kekai at JPS.NET  Wed Jun 23 03:11:42 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 20:11:42 -0700
Subject: Linguistic KB
Message-ID: <161227050901.23782.1591846461334024439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Raoul Martens wrote:
>

> 4. As often reported in the media mitochondrial DNA indicates that the
> whole world population descends from not very distant African ancestors.
>

MtDNA and Y chromosome data both agree that modern humans descend from
populations established from about 100,000 to 150,000 years ago:

Hammer MF, Karafet T, Rasanayagam A, Wood ET, Altheide TK, Jenkins T,
Griffiths RC, Templeton AR, Zegura S "Out of Africa and back again:
nested cladistic analysis of human Y chromosome variation." _Mol Biol
Evol_ 1998 Apr;15(4):427-41

 Jorde LB, et al. " Using mitochondrial and nuclear DNA markers to
reconstruct human evolution." _Bioessays_. 1998 Feb;20(2):126-36.
Review.

> In view hereof and as the Cro-Magnons are commonly held to have had the
> ability of speach 40.000 BC no (re)constructed 'proto-language' apply-
> ing to 4000 BC appears to reflect the 'homeland' of any
> languagegroup.

Even Neaderthals may have had speech ability.  The developed hyoid bone
occurs very far back in human history:

 Lieberman P. "Silver-tongued Neandertals?" _Science_. 1999 Jan
8;283(5399):175.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala




From balakrishnanraju at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 22 20:31:01 1999
From: balakrishnanraju at HOTMAIL.COM (balakrishnan raju)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 20:31:01 +0000
Subject: Antagonist's name as Personal name
Message-ID: <161227050903.23782.13750353109572957818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indology Members,
Greetings.
I am doing a study on 'the choice of epic-antagonist's name as personal
name' through an inter-state survey in India. Ravan, Kumbhkarna, Duryodhan
and Dushasan are among the names taken up. The study deals with geographical
distribution, frequency and ethnological significance of such choice.
In this connection I am interested to know:

(i) Whether any such study on epic antagonist's name has been done earlier,
if so reference.
(ii) Does any one know about any particular ethnic / tribal group showing
such preference showing affinity or claiming common origin with such
antagonists? {For example KORKU tribes of Melghat call themselves "Ravan
Vamsi" and perform 'Aarti'(prayer) to Kumbhkarna}.
(iii) Are there societies/groups elsewhere (out side India) with similar
tendencies/preferences towards antagonists of their local myths or legends?

Looking forward,
Regards,
R. Balakrishnan


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From bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Tue Jun 22 18:56:44 1999
From: bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Volker Thewalt)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 20:56:44 +0200
Subject: Lokapalas in buddhist rock-carvings
Message-ID: <161227050910.23782.9716733045231890702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Greetings,
a _very_ brief notice on lokapalas/caturmaharajikas
in buddhist rock carvings (including pictures)
from Northern Pakistan is available under
http://www.thewalt.de/lokapala/lokapala.htm
(For the time being only in German, English translation
under preparation...)
VTh


---------------------------------
       LaserSatz  Thewalt
       Dr. Volker Thewalt
         Kapellenweg 8
       D-69257 Wiesenbach
fon 06223/970122 fax 06223/970123
     http://www.thewalt.de
     http://www.w3pro.de
     http://www.uebersatz.de
     e-mail: vt at thewalt.de
---------------------------------




From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 22 20:00:48 1999
From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 21:00:48 +0100
Subject: Inquiry about addresses
Message-ID: <161227050912.23782.2532168023524670033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

June 22, 99

Dear Members,
I am in search for addresses of
(1) Professor Ruegg (Retired Professor of Buddhism, University of
Washington)
(2) Professor Raeside (Retired Professor of Marathi, London
University)
I shall be thankful if someone furnishes either or both on my
personal address <arjunwadkar at mcmail.com>
With thanks in advance,
K S Arjunwadkar




From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU  Wed Jun 23 09:48:20 1999
From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 05:48:20 -0400
Subject: Saptarsi, etc,
Message-ID: <161227050917.23782.8046382164749643377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Barry,
I am forwarding your query to the INDOLOGY listserv where there is a
decent likelihood of a listmember having some suggestions on your
topic. Indology is at: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
(Colleagues: please respond directly to Mr. Pittard, who is not, I
believe, a member of the listserv. Thanks.)
David Magier

--------------
From: "Barry Pittard" <bpittard at beachaccess.com.au>
To: <magier at columbia.edu>
Subject: Saptarsi, etc
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:33:40 +1000

In an area where I find paucity, I'm looking for any quality studies
that get as close as possible to who and what certain ancient Indian
sages actually were or well might have been.

For my study on nadisastra of different traditions, in different parts
of India, I require as much information as I can get on the Sapta Rishis
- the seven Rishis of Vedic times, sometimes called Saptarsi - Gautama,
Bharadwaja, Vishwamitra, Jamadagni, Vasishta, Kasyapa, Atri; who also,
in Astronomy, correspond to the constellation Ursa Major, commonly known
as the Big Dipper.

Other sages about whom I am always striving to get more decent FACTUAL
information about are:

Bhrighu, Shuka, Shukra, Druva, Amsa, Agasthya, Kousika, Koumara,
Kakbhusandi, Bhoga, Pullipani, Vashista, Vishwamitra, Parasara, Sahadeva

Can you or other colleagues suggest?

Barry Pittard




From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 23 15:38:44 1999
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 08:38:44 -0700
Subject: vaTakalai and ten2kalai (3)
Message-ID: <161227050919.23782.17977074656307222699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr Palaniappan,

In your posts on this thread, I was having trouble
with the methodology you were using.

 If I were to use your classification of the steps
involved, I'd have called step (1) Etymology of Group
Name consisting of at least 3 aspects viz., literal
meaning attested in texts for the sense of the word
under discussion, influence of geographical
connotation, social connotation, and any others. Your
posts, IMHO, dealt only with one aspect of step (1).

I'll take you up on your offer, after a while,  to
continue the discussion offline.

Thanks and Warm Regards,

LS






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From Pamela.Lyon at ANU.EDU.AU  Wed Jun 23 05:24:14 1999
From: Pamela.Lyon at ANU.EDU.AU (Pamela Lyon)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 14:54:14 +0930
Subject: Tenets, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199906220617_MC2-7A25-9D0E@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <161227050914.23782.9026253158591542849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Re: Mr Ulrich T Kragh's comments --

As I had hoped my subject heading would have indicated, my query relates to
the schools of Tibetan Buddhist Tenets (Vaibashika, Sautrantika, etc.), not
the four schools of Tibetan Buddhism (Nyingma-pa, etc.).

Thank you for noting the potential ambiguity regarding the four seals,
which I had hoped to avoid by listing the first. For the record, I am
interested in the non-tantric four seals.

Cheers,

Pamela




* * * * * * * * *
Pamela Lyon
PhD Student
Asian History Centre                     ALSO: (as I am a distance student)
The Australian National University              20 Wellesley Avenue
Canberra, ACT  0200                             Evandale, SA  5069
Australia                                       Australia
Ph: +61 2 6279 8240                             Ph/fax: +61 8 8362 9324
Fax: +61 2 6279 8326                            pamelalyon at ozemail.com.au
Pamela.Lyon at anu.edu.au




From dbgray62 at HOME.COM  Thu Jun 24 03:00:10 1999
From: dbgray62 at HOME.COM (DAVID GRAY)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 23:00:10 -0400
Subject: Request for Information...
Message-ID: <161227050921.23782.919453989397399776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If anyone knows the email or snail-mail address or Dr. Alexis Sanderson
(of Oxford University, I believe), I would appreciate it if they could
forward me this information.

Also, I would like to know the complete citation for a work by Claudio
Cicuzza called, I believe, LaghutantraTIkA by Bodhisattva VajrapANi; I
believe it is a doctoral disseration, although I am not sure at which
University it was submitted.  I do know that it is a critical edition of
a commentary on the first chapter of the Cakrasamvara Tantra.
Alternately, contact information (email or snail-mail address) for Dr.
Cicuzza would also be helpful.

Thank you very much.

David B. Gray
Columbia University




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Thu Jun 24 14:11:39 1999
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 10:11:39 -0400
Subject: Dakshina
In-Reply-To: <v03110701b397db8def37@[129.240.19.27]>
Message-ID: <161227050935.23782.16800387979519211455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would appreciate if anyone knows a modern study of the practice of
offering Dak.si.naa to Brahmins during the reign of Peshwas in
Maharashtra.  I have seen only peripheral references to this practice so
far.  The amounts of money mentioned in these references are very large,
1,800,000 Rupees for some years and 500,000 during the reign of Bajirao
II, just before the British took over Poona.  I would like to find out
more trustworthy descriptions, perhaps some published original documents
of the Peshwas.  Any help is appreciated.
                                                Madhav Deshpande




From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Thu Jun 24 18:26:37 1999
From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 11:26:37 -0700
Subject: Drona in Mahabharata
Message-ID: <161227050943.23782.13032117112329946804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here is a philological query I received, hoping it would elicit
enlightening comments from you. Thanks.

>       I would appreciate any help with my attempt to understand an
>apparent incoherence in the Mahabharata's account of Drona's feud with
>Drupada. For those familiar with the unique text-critical issues of the
>MBh, I wish to issue a disclaimer: I am not attempting to discern the
>"original" text for this episode. The episode is basically as follows:
>       In the Mahabharata, child Drona, son of the sage Bharadvaja,
>befriends Drupada, the son of his father's friend, King Prsata. When they
>grow up, Drupada becomes king, and his childhood brahmana friend, Drona,
>apparently in need of money to support his young family, approaches
>Drupada to cash in on their old friendship. Drupada, however, haughtily
>rejects Drona, insisting that a rich, powerful king can hardly be friends
>with a poor, powerless figure like Drona, the refrain of this conceited
>sermon being sakhi-purvam kim isyate, roughly "what is the use of old
>friends?"
>       Here are the some of my observations, explicitly stated or
>seemingly entailed by the extant MBh texts:
>1. The Adi-parva, Ch 121-122 clearly states that Drona first married Krpi,
>and had a child, the future serial-killer Asvatthaman, BEFORE approaching
>Drupada.
>2. Krpi, and her twin-brother Krpa, were adopted children of the great
>king Santanu, the highly revered grandfather of Dhrtarastra and Pandu.
>3. Krpa enjoyed an unquestioned status as a well-maintained acarya of the
>royal Kuru household, and his saintly sister Krpi, Drona's wife, enjoyed a
>similar, highly respected status.
>4. This means that Drona must have been a most respectable figure in the
>Kurus' eyes, since they gave Krpi to him as his wife. Indeed Drona's
>father is the saintly Bharadvaja.
>5. This makes Drona a virtual son-in-law of Santanu, a brother-in-law of
>Krpa, and a type of uncle to the de-facto king, Dhrtarastra.
>6. That Drona was well-known to the Kurus is seen in the incident where he
>deftly rescues the ball (or whatever they were playing with) that the Kuru
>princes had lost in a well. When the princes ask Drona who he is, he says,
>"Just tell Bhisma about me, and he'll know," and Bhisma does know.
>       Therefore, here are the problems:
>1. With such superlative connections to the richest family in the world,
>how can Drona be a destitute brahmana, who explicitly tells Parasurama,
>for example, "I come seeking money," and then goes to Drupada?
>2. Why would Drupada reject Drona as a poor beggar, since Drona had
>already married into the most aristocratic Kuru dynasty? Drupada mentions
>later that he was a close friend of Pandu, the departed Kuru king, and
>that Drupada had always dreamed of marrying his daughter Draupadi to one
>of Pandu's sons. The texts mention no troubles between the Kurus and the
>neighboring Pancalas after Pandu's death, and Drona is a member of the
>Kuru royal household.
>       In the dialogue between Drona and Drupada, Drupada is a monstrous
>caricature of a haughty, successful man rejecting his old friend. The
>whole episode seems problematic.
>       Have any scholars written on this, to anyone's knowledge? All help
>will be cheerfully appreciated.

Beatrice Reusch
University of California, Berkeley




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Thu Jun 24 09:21:09 1999
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 12:21:09 +0300
Subject: Cape Comorin (Kanyakumari) in Greek Texts
In-Reply-To: <006b01bebb39$1b8ce0e0$c9026b83@joyprakash>
Message-ID: <161227050923.23782.16357172929142833704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues

Sujatha Stephens asked about Kanya Kumari in Greek sources. The southern
tip of India in mentioned in the Periplus maris Erythraei 58f. as Komarei
and in the Geography of Ptolemy 7, 1, 9 as Komaria, which is explained by
Ptolemy to be both town and cape.

Regards

Klaus


Klaus Karttunen
Institute for Asian and African Studies
Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Thu Jun 24 09:29:43 1999
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 12:29:43 +0300
Subject: Yajna Sri Satkarni
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.990618125517.10829B-100000@emerald.tufts.edu>
Message-ID: <161227050926.23782.13838820572223105904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues

J. G. Walser asked about the date of the Satavahana king Satakarni. A have
not collected references to him, but as his date is bound to that of
Nahapana and as Nahapana is mostly identified with king Manbanes (or
Manbanos) of the Periplus (and Satakarni with Saraganes), I can offer
following references from my Periplus and Ksatrapa files:

Altekar, A. S. "The date of Nahapana", XVI All-India Oriental Conference,
Lucknow 1951, Vol. 2, L. 1955, 194-202.
Bakhle, V. S. "Satavahanas and the contemporary Ksatrapas", Journal of the
Bombay Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society 14, 1928 (not seen by myself).
Banerji, Rakhaldas, "Nahapana and the Saka Era", Journal of the Royal
Asiatic Society 1917, 273-289 & 1925, 1-19.
Boyer, A. M. "Nahapana et l'?re ?aka", Journal asiatique 9:10, 1897, 120-151.
Cribb, Joe, "Numismatic Evidence for the Date of the 'Periplus'", Indian
Numismatics, History, Art and Culture. Essays in honour of Dr. P. L. Gupta.
Delhi 1992, 131-145.
Fussman, G. "Le P?riple et l'histoire politique de l'Inde", Journal
asiatique 279, 1991, 31-38 (claims that Manbanes is not Nahapana).
Gokhale, Shobhana, "Two lead coins of gautamiputra Yajnasri Satakarni from
the British Museum", Journal of the Numismatic Society of India 46, 1984,
47ff.
Ghosh, Hari Charan, "The chronology of the Western Ksatrapas and the
Andhras", Indian Historical Quarterly 6, 1930 (not seen by myself).
Jayaswal, K. P. "Problems of Saka-Satavahana History", Journal of the
Bombay Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society 16, 1930 (not seen by myself).
L?vi, Sylvain, "Kaniska et Satavahana, deux ?gures symboliques de l'Inde au
Ier si?cle", Journal asiatique 228, 1936, 61-121.
MacDowall, David W. "The early Western Satraps and the date of the
Periplus", Numismatic Chronicle 7:4, 1964, 271-280.
Majumdar, R. C. "The date of Chashtana", Journal of the Asiatic Society of
Bengal N.S. 10, 1914, 223-226.
------ "The date of the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea", Indian Historical
Quarterly 38, 1962, 89-97.
Maricq, Andr?, "The Date of Kaniska", A. L. Basham (ed.), Papers on the
Date of Kaniska, submitted to the Conference on the Date of Kaniska,
London, 20-22 April, 1960. Australian National University, Centre of
Oriental Studies, Oriental Monograph Series 4, Leiden 1968, 179-199.
Mirashi, V. V. "The Date of nahapana", Journal of Indian History 43, 1965,
111-118.
Palmer, J. A. B. "Periplus maris Erythraei: The Indian evidence as to the
date", Classical Quarterly 41, 1947, 137-140.
Pauli, Fritz, "Nahapana / Manban.s vor 78 n.Chr.? Ein epigraphischer
Neufund aus Indien und seine Bedeutung f?r die antike
S?dasien-Chronologie", Studien zur alten Geschichte. Siegfried Lauffer ?
dargebracht. Rome 1986, 743-753.
Quagliotti, A. M. "Note sulla cronologia degli Saka e degli Satavahana (la
grotta 3 di Nasik)", Rivista degli Studi Orientali 56, 1982 (1985), 75-113.
Ray, Himanshu Prabha, Monastery and Guild. Commerce under the
Sa?tava?hanas. Delhi 1986.
Salomon, Richard,  "The Ksatrapas and Mahaksatrapas of India", Wiener
Zeitschrift zur Kunde S?d-Asiens 18, 1974, 5-25.
Sastri, K. A. Nilakanta, "The Later Satavahanas and the Sakas", Journal of
the Royal Asiatic Society 1926, 643-665
Sircar, D. C. "The date of the Periplus", Indian Historical Quarterly 38,
1962, 138-142.
Thomas, F. W. "Sandanes, Nahapnna, Castana and Kaniska: Tung-li, P'an-ch'i
and Chinese Turkistan", New Indian Antiquary 7, 1944, 81-100.
Wilson, C. R. "Proposed identification of the name of an Andhra King in the
Periplus", Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal 73, 1904, 272f.

I have left out all studies earlier than Boyer (1897) as well as those
discussing the date of the Periplus mainly on South Arabian evidence.

Regards

Klaus


Klaus Karttunen
Institute for Asian and African Studies
Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Thu Jun 24 13:02:30 1999
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 14:02:30 +0100
Subject: Chandogya Upanisad -- mathematics and ritual
In-Reply-To: <199906241250.OAA02918@bednorz.get2net.dk>
Message-ID: <161227050932.23782.5653426047786537838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Toke Lindegaard Knudsen,
   do you know Axel Michaels' book "Beweisverfahren in der vedischen
Sakralgeometrie - Ein Beitrag zur Entstehungsgeschichte von Wissenschaft",
Wiesbaden, 1978 (Alt- und Neu-Indische Studien, 20)?
   I think it would answer some, though not all, of your questions.
Best regards,
   G.v.Simson




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Thu Jun 24 12:42:20 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 14:42:20 +0200
Subject: Chandogya Upanisad -- mathematics and ritual
Message-ID: <161227050929.23782.5145534130433810680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list-members,

I am doing research on the Sulbasutras of ancient India and I am
interested in the connection between ritual and mathematics in the
Vedic times (for example if mathematics has a ritual origin as
proposed by A. Seidenberg).  I came across one verse in the
Chandogya Upanisad (7.1.2)  which I found very interesting.  In the
verse Narada explains to Sanatkumara what he knows and has
studied and in the translation of Patrick Olivelle (Oxford) Narada
mentions two things, namely "mathematics" and "the science of
ritual."  There seems to be made a distinction here, i.e. that
mathematics has a status of a science separate from ritual and not
a tool used in ritual (for example geometry used for altar
constructions as indicated in the Sulbasutras).

However, I do not read sanskrit, nor do I have an edition of
Chandogya Upanisad with transliterated text.  Can anyone help me
with what exact words are used for "mathematics" and "the
science of ritual" in the above-mentioned verse?  I am interested in
knowing whether the word in the text indicates a branch of
mathematics (say, arithmetic or geometry) rather than
mathematics in general.

What is the dating of the Chandogya Upanisad?

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen
tlk at math.ku.dk




From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU  Thu Jun 24 16:20:40 1999
From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 18:20:40 +0200
Subject: Chandogya Upanisad -- mathematics and ritual
Message-ID: <161227050937.23782.8396963998888986051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Toke Lindegaard,

"the science of ritual" (as can be seen from Olivelle's own notes, which you
may find useful otherwise as well) is "brahmavidyA", and "mathematics" is
"rAzi" [in other transcriptions "ra-s'i" or "raas'i"].
rAzi, m. in the standard dictionaries means: 1. heap, mass, pile, quantity,
number 2. a sign of the Zodiac.

The dating of  the chAndogya-upaniSad is, according to (unproven) consensus,
pre-Buddhistic. Clearly the material accumulated over a longer period; you
could relatively safely assume the 5th century B.C.E. as a date for an
almost-final recension. (See Olivelle's Introduction p. XXXVI.)

Yours,
Ferenc




From mmaggi at SINERGIA.IT  Thu Jun 24 17:21:15 1999
From: mmaggi at SINERGIA.IT (MAGGI, Mauro)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 18:21:15 +0100
Subject: Claudio Cicuzza
Message-ID: <161227050940.23782.12371232445136028865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Claudio Cicuzza's e-mail address is c.cicuzza at iol.it




Dr. Mauro Maggi
Corso Antonio Gramsci 13
00045 Genzano di Roma
Italia

E-mail: mmaggi at sinergia.it
Tel.: +39 069364890


Istituto italiano per l'Africa e l'Oriente (IsIAO)
Biblioteca. Sezione orientale
Via Merulana 248
00185 Roma
Italia

Tel.: +39 064874273 (centralino)
Fax: +39 064873138




From arul_kumaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 25 18:19:55 1999
From: arul_kumaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (arul kumaresan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 99 13:19:55 -0500
Subject: muraja drum
Message-ID: <161227050946.23782.1735854165538360344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Seeking Sanskritists' help on the drum/big drum `muraja'.
Is it from Indo-Iranian heritage?

Or,
Is Skt. muraja from Dravidian muracam? Classical Tamil
texts have royal drum, muracam/muracu/muraicu.
Usually, these muracam-s were kept on a decorated cot
in the palace. Sangam texts portray muracam-s being
carried by elephants and royal commands proclaimed.
Any comments on Skt. muraja and Ta. muracam?

Thanks a million,
Arul


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 26 00:50:43 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 99 17:50:43 -0700
Subject: Dakshina
Message-ID: <161227050949.23782.1451599820247763118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I would appreciate if anyone knows a modern study of the practice of
>offering Dak.si.naa to Brahmins during the reign of Peshwas in
>Maharashtra.  I have seen only peripheral references to this practice so
>far.

See Ravinder Kumar's article titled, "The New Brahmans of Maharashtra" in D.
Low (ed.), Soundings in South Asian History, U. California, Berkeley, 1968,
pp. 95-130. It mainly concentrates on the early British period in Pune
(after 1818), but the references cited in the paper, especially the
government records, should be useful. The title of this article seems to
have been inspired by the 1963 book "The New Brahmans" edited by D. D.
Karve, also published by UC press.

Vidyasankar


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From Joperry2 at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 26 01:17:06 1999
From: Joperry2 at AOL.COM (John Oliver Perry)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 99 21:17:06 -0400
Subject: Indian surnames and inferences drawn therefrom
Message-ID: <161227050951.23782.16774247007896705065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

        For almost a year, a number of knowledgeable people have responded to
a series of initially rather stumbling and perhaps naive inquiries from me
(an Indophile knowing only English) on the H-ASIA, RISA-L, & Sasialit lists
about the above Subject.  Having recently joined INDOLOGY, I would like to
solicit from members of this list any further responses, either posted or
back-channel.

        Over the twenty-eight years of my involvement with India (since 1978
researching and writing mostly on contemporary Indian English poetry and
criticism), I have been fascinated with the varieties of Indian surnames and
the inferences  that are commonly drawn from them by other Indians... and
others "in the know."  When a person's name is mentioned, often a collocutor
will attempt to deduce certain supposed facts about the person: perhaps
caste, area, line of work, even character (typically, how that work is done
but possibly a more general description of the person's expected way of
life).  How do they know, and how much (and when) do they use, these supposed
facts about another person deduced just from their name, and, perhaps most
important, what is it that they think they know?

        Of course, in the rapidly changing Indian society such inferences--
about work (traditionally) done, caste/social status, community, geography,
what southern U.S. people used to call "background"-- are less and less
likely to apply to all (or even any) people using a particular surname. For
one thing, a so-called "family name" may have been recently assumed (or
given), for precisely the reason that people do draw inferences from Indian
names. Also inferences about "family background," community, etc., are less
and less important as Indians become more urbanized and tend to judge others
by their individual character, attainments and capacities.

        Still, there is a "lore" about surnames that would be interesting to
explore, no matter how unreliable and prejudicial.  Though enormous, it would
also be interesting to collect this lore in a dictionary of Indian surnames,
a collection in some ways parallel with (but perhaps more historically
relevant and `serious' than) "How to Name Your Baby" books in India that list
(usually Sanskrit-based) given names and their translated meanings.  Some
overlap exists between given names and surnames, but surnames-- however
presently or previously understood, for whatever insidious or benign
purposes-- are the focus of my interest, partly because they and their
implications tend to be inherited or ascribed more than assumed.  The
problem, in one sense, is to map the common prejudices of various groups
about other groups which use a distinctive name-- be it a family name, a
caste or sub-caste name or some other accepted designation.  Yet a full
account would include also the self-image of  the group by most of its
members. And there might also be substantial minority reports from all sides.
Moreover, a complex group characterization might take the form: "They are
typically such-and-such, but some are of another type."

        Two kinds of questions emerge from this consideration:

First, practical/methodological/theoretical questions-- e.g., for each
surname, what time period is being considered? what area(s)? what methods are
allowable, relevant, and/or reliable for gathering such lore? what varieties
of information and of lore will be collected? what sources/informants will be
used, including the subjects themselves (wherever possible)? what books are
currently available to support the work? what cautions are pertinent for
investigating the common (but potentially biased, unfairly prejudicial)
practice of drawing inferences from surnames? what social and/or personal
harms can be done by such an investigation (vs. its historical and
anthropological interest), and, not least important, how can the immense
amounts of information be solicited and organized (e.g., what tools
can/should be used, from face-to-face fieldwork to the setting up of closely
monitored internet collecting sites and computer-based programs; what
organizations can be enlisted or formed for the work; what funding mechanisms
may be required or helpful for a well-organized project)?

Second, questions about the information itself: e.g., how does this
information correlate with other, supposedly more reliable, scientific
demographic data about such matters as traditional and current typical work,
wealth and income, social status and marriage patterns, relationships to
other groups and sub-groups? who typically draws which inferences, using what
methods, and for what purposes?   what are the possible/probable etymologies
(as opposed to folk etymologies) of each name and its provenances, linguistic
and geographical? how much of the lore is related to such linguistic-semantic
and socio-linguistic cues/clues?

        This query has come a long way from my intitially asking whether a
dictionary of the explicit (inherent/translated) meanings together with
widely accepted sociological connotations and implications of Indian surnames
exists, or could be collected.  As my awareness of the issues has developed,
making such a collection of data (and necessarily interpeting it) begins to
look like an impossibly encyclopedic undertaking.  I would be interested,
therefore, in any suggestions about dividing the project. Drawing limited
geographic-linguistic boundaries is an obvious choice, and some respondents
have offered bibliographic citations that suggest a few books already exist
that approach the desired form and substance for a few linguistic or
geographic areas.  However, most of the best known Indian surnames about
which many people make some common deductions have become quite widespread
now, and this geographic and social diffusion is increasing as members within
castes and other social groupings become more diverse in wealth, status, and
work as well as in their usual location or habitat, community, and their
relationships to other groups.

        Clearly it would be impossible to survey and cite every book that
describes a social group having a common name, or all the anthropological
books describing the social relationships of a particular village or larger
area, and thus what people there understand about each named group (which may
include more than one surname).  And the broader and more dispersed the
social group written about, obviously the more diffuse and diversified the
supposed information about its members, or else the more unreliable as a
report about what people in contact with them generally think they know about
them, and they about themselves. Still, whatever the difficulties, the sheer
pursuit of this evanescent and disputable, oft-times disrespectful, lore some
Indians claim to have about their fellow Indians *based on surnames alone*--
such an unending, but definable, project should be a fascinating process,
whatever the ultimate product.

        Thanks in advance for any contributions to this subject, either
directly or, if of general interest, posted for all.  And please do not
hesitate to offer (off-list) what might ordinarily be obvious bibliographic
citations or odd bits of family lore or personal anecdotes.   My apologies
for a long initial posting.   Best wishes,
John Oliver Perry (Professor, Emeritus, English, Tufts Univ., USA)




From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 26 05:04:06 1999
From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 99 06:04:06 +0100
Subject: Dakshina
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.9906241005160.25109-100000@qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227050954.23782.485461286730867634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Date sent:              Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:11:39 -0400
Send reply to:          Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From:                   Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at UMICH.EDU>
Subject:                Dakshina
To:                     INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

> I would appreciate if anyone knows a modern study of the practice of
> offering Dak.si.naa to Brahmins during the reign of Peshwas in
> Maharashtra.  I have seen only peripheral references to this practice so
> far.  The amounts of money mentioned in these references are very large,
> 1,800,000 Rupees for some years and 500,000 during the reign of Bajirao
> II, just before the British took over Poona.  I would like to find out
> more trustworthy descriptions, perhaps some published original documents
> of the Peshwas.  Any help is appreciated.
>                                                 Madhav Deshpande

June 25, 99
Dear Madhav,
I am taking a printout of your mail to India to see if I can find further
information on the subject. In the meantime, you may chack
Sanskrit Commission (1956) Report for some details on this point. I
faintly remember that the Deccan College and the Shravan Maas
Dakshinaa Pariikshaa at Badoda are offshoots of the Poona
Dakshinaa tradition.
Best wishes.
KSA




From raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE  Sat Jun 26 16:16:28 1999
From: raoul at MARTENS.PP.SE (Raoul Martens)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 99 09:16:28 -0700
Subject: Linguistic KB
Message-ID: <161227050957.23782.6035888014013479247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 22 June 1999 Paul Kekai Mansala wrote:

> MtDNA and Y chromosome data both agree that modern humans descend
> from populations established from about 100,000 to 150,000 years ago

Acc. to A Brief History of Science 1998 ISBN 0-7607-1065-1 'the latest
estimate for the origin of Homo Sapiens, based on sequences from the
entire mitochondrial genome, is more precise at about 140,000 years.'

However, there are also other methods (and opinions) re. this matter:
the 10 authors of 'Minisatellite diversity supports a recent African
origin for modern humans' in Nature Genetics, June 13, 1996, state:
'Computer simulations with the measured mutation rate of 0.4% (ref.24)
showed that the rate of decay of allele sharing between diverging pop-
ulations was largely independent of population size above 1,000, being
driven by mutation rate rather than genetic drift. Decay to the obser-
ved level of three instances of African/non-African allele sharing re-
quired an average of 770 generations (15,000 years; 95% upper confidence
limit 22,000 years). This estimated divergence time for the split bet-
ween African and non-African populations is much more recent than other
estimates, for example based on mitochondrial DNA.'

Sincerely
Raoul Martens




From sxe at UNIVE.IT  Sat Jun 26 11:35:53 1999
From: sxe at UNIVE.IT (Clemente Beghi)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 99 12:35:53 +0100
Subject: Learning
Message-ID: <161227050959.23782.12146588307357758708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello everyone.
I am a neophyte in the study of ancient India.
I'd like to have information(bibliography,web pages etc)on the vaishnava
and shaiva tradition and history.
I would also like to know if there are Sanskrit and Vedic discussion
groups and learning resources(expecially mailing lists).
Thank you very much,Clemente Beghi




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Sat Jun 26 18:07:34 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 99 14:07:34 -0400
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227050967.23782.9230097867314209291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

David Jonsson wrote:
>
> I have only seen a motion picture of Ramayana. They said special procedures
> were used in the conception of Rama. Which were these procedures? Can
> someone give reference?
Dasrath, Ram's father had been cursed by some one therefore or otherwise
he was unable to father a child even though he had 3 wives. He consulted
some priests and performed some yagnya and was given some potion which
he gave to his wives so that they all became pregnant. Therefore the
biological father of Ram is as much mystery as biological father of
Jesus.

--
Have a peaceful and joyous day.
Aditya Mishra
Primary e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ # 1131674 Mediaring # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        Wit sometimes enables us to act rudely with impunity. ---Duc de La
Rochefoucauld




From hart at POLBOX.COM  Sat Jun 26 13:19:19 1999
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 99 15:19:19 +0200
Subject: Drona in Mahabharata
In-Reply-To: <v04011701b39827834a22@[153.37.20.246]>
Message-ID: <161227050962.23782.17055937918072071618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Reusch,

The episode of Drona and Drupada is very interesting. To understand it
better one should remember that Drupada swore by truth (satyena) that after
his father will crown him, he would let Drona enjoy his kingdom:
abhiSekSyati mAM rAjye sa pAJcAlyo yadA tadA// tvadbhojyaM bhavitA rAjyaM
sakhe satyena te zape/ [I:122.29-30.]

The >apparent incoherence in the Mahabharata's account of Drona's feud with
Drupada> seems to rest mainly on the understanding of two expressions
apearing in the key phrase of the episode.

When Drona approaches Drupada to remind him of their former friendship,
Drupada says: na hi rAjJAmudIrNAnAmevaMbhUtairnaraiH kvacit/ sakhyaM
bhavati... zriyA hInairdhanacyutaiH// [I:122,3]

Van Buitenen translates: "For no exalted king strikes up friendships
anywhere... with men like you, destitute of wealth and deprived of fortune".
Note that VB reverses the sequence of those key expressions: in the text
'fortune' (zrI) comes before 'wealth' (dhana). Kalyanov's  Russian translation
preserves the original sequence, but it also says: "...with  similar men,
deprived of fortune and wealth."

In this particular context - shouldn't one consider introducing here
another, less common meaning of zrI?  If Drona is excluded from zrI,
understood not as "luck" or "fortune", but as "Royal Dignity" or
"Sovereignty", then, as if by definition, he cannot possess any true wealth
(dhana.) Which excludes him from partnership with Drupada, but
does not make him poor or destitute.

When the layer of popular images based on the conflict between luckless
poverty and riches is removed, the story of Drona and Drupada may - possibly
- reveal its deeper meaning. Much indicates that it would show one more
version of the core conflict of the Mbh.: that between the law and the truth
(dharma vs. satya.) As if to make the listeners' choice more difficult, the
episode links the law to the present, the truth to the past. By letting a
brahmin-warrior co-govern his country Drupada-king would break the law, by
breaking his promise to a friend Drupada-man violates the truth.

Alf Hiltebeitel's "The Ritual of Battle" (NY Un.Press, 1990) contains one
large chapter devoted to Sri (Sri and the Source of Sovereignty, pp.
143-191), and a number of useful notes.

With regards,

Artur Karp
University of Warsaw
Poland





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Dowiesz sie wszystkiego na temat skutecznej antykoncepcji odwiedzajac
http://www.antykoncepcja.com.pl  ZAPRASZAMY!!
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From David.Jonsson at DJK.SE  Sat Jun 26 15:35:25 1999
From: David.Jonsson at DJK.SE (David Jonsson)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 99 17:35:25 +0200
Subject: The conception of Rama
In-Reply-To: <19990531120818.85570.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227050964.23782.9062618615410699522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have only seen a motion picture of Ramayana. They said special procedures
were used in the conception of Rama. Which were these procedures? Can
someone give reference? I do not have any books but I suppose Ramayana is
on the net somewhere?

David




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Jun 26 21:29:25 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 99 22:29:25 +0100
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian; and open-mindedness
In-Reply-To: <3760751A.C050C918@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227050969.23782.4747776730361059625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just back from another  open-minded tour of Japan,  open-mindedly studying
not Indo-European,  but ancient Japanese myth and ritual, and open-mindedly
drinking, not IE *medhu,  but sacred Sake (miwa) offered by a Miko inside
the inner compound of one of the oldest Shinto shrines,
I was struck by the light-hearted naivite' of someone who constantly has
written against IE heritage in India and beyond:

At 19:31 -0700 6/10/99, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:

>Yes, but Sanskrit is an Indian language.  Maybe it would be more
>relevant if -am was a common ending for IE nouns

And again, later:
>Are you really saying that Latin -um, Greek -on and Sanskrit -am are related?

And again:
>  Sanskrit is very similar in structure to Dravidian.

Sentences like these betray absolute innocence with regard to IE word
formation & grammar in general.
This has already been explained by other members . The upshot is that
Nothing  that is said about IE / non_IE  or Indo_Aryan/ non-IA in South
Asia can be taken seriously.

However, to put P.K.M. at ease, I will not only confess here an open-minded
"non-IE" marriage (with a Japanese), a "half-IE" son (Manabu), and our own
(linguistically very interesting)  German-Japanese- English pidgin/creole,
but rather to my recognition  of a quite substantial number of non-IE
substrate words in Vedic Sanskrit, stemming from Dravidian, Munda, and
OTHER, now lost languages. And different from what is usally supposed  as
far as the order, geographical distribution  and *immigration*  of Drav.,
Munda etc. into the subcontinent are concerned.  -- Details in EJVS in late
June (www address below).

>And many other words are of Austric or other etymology making
>up the vast majority of Sanskrit words.

The point of 'vast majority' has already been discussed by others. In Vedic
they range from c. 4% in the, after all, rather hieratic  RV to a larger
proportion in the Atharvaveda, etc.
The important point is not so much the exact percentage but the continuing
occurence of *new*
imports of such words into Vedic even after the Atharvaveda, indicative of
*when and where* the speakers of  Drav., Munda etc., were resident at the
time.

The other importat point is that PKM is correct when he says that (Vedic)
Skt. is <<already>> an Indian language. It clearly has been influenced by
the local S. Asian substrate, WHILE Avestan,  ITS CLOSE RELATIVE, almost a
dialect of Vedic, has NOT.

This point (and local influence on IE/IA myth and ritual) is not always
understood properly, or rather neglected, by Indo-Europeanists.

PKM also is right when he says
> the Austric contribution as recognized by (most) modern scholars that
>appears to be small.  ...the >evidence suggests the contribution in all
>regards is quite great.

Kuiper (linguistics, myth) and Berger (myth) and now Sergent (myth) are
notable exceptions. More in EJVS.

and also :
> The Austric presence really extends beyond Eastern India

For example,  even today on the Tapti (Kurku, and their Nahali-speaking
neighbors), but already seen in the Rgvedic Panjab.

In short, the subject is in need of an open-minded, sine ira et studio
approach, --  not fixed attitudes such as  Aryan "invasion" or not,
Dravidian "autogenesis" in S.Asia,  Munda-minimizing   (not to speak of
other languages and their original speakers ).  More in next message.

Note that the late(?)  I.M.  Diakonoff has even sought to establish a
Munda- Sumerian family. (Mother Tongue III, 1997, 54- 62), with examples
from vocabulary and the complicated polysynthetic grammar.
(So much for the 'low level' culture of the Mundas and their relatives: Cf.
the Mon and Khmer and Sumerian?? civilizations, and -- how much do
Guatemalan jungle farmers look like bearers of the Maya civilization now?)

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jun 27 07:20:43 1999
From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 03:20:43 -0400
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian; and open-mindedness
In-Reply-To: <377651B6.D4CB1712@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227050974.23782.6589903850570177693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 27 Jun 1999, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:

> As I said, a lack of an open mind.

I know it's not the best use of my time responding to this (and it's to
Michael Witzel's credit that he has continually taken the trouble to
educate non-specialists on this list with linguistic information), but I
feel moved to state that if there is one thing of which he can *not* be
accused, it is of lacking an open mind.  One may not share all of his
views, but I happen to know for a fact that he has taken considerable
trouble to pursue *every single* 'revisionist' or alternative viewpoint on
Indian proto-history that has shown any semblance of rationality, or that
has attempted to engage the data with any degree of earnestness.

So, please, by all means disagree with him by offering informed counter
arguments (and preferably ones that match the attention to detail that he
commands).  But don't accuse him of lacking an open mind.  Edwin Bryant




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Sun Jun 27 11:24:43 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 07:24:43 -0400
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227050979.23782.16659001555289639138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Samar Abbas wrote:
>
> On Sat, 26 Jun 1999, Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic wrote:
> > [T]he biological father of Ram is as much mystery as biological father
> > of Jesus.
>
> The following article in `Modern Rationalist' states that after the
> ashwamedha Dasaratha handed over his queens to the disciples of guru
> Kalaikottu Muni. The author then concludes that one of the disciples of
> Kalaikottu Muni was the real father of Rama & not Dasaratha. (this is not
> my work)
>            http://www.periyar.org/mr/983mr6.htm
>
>  Is this story universally accepted ? What do Hindutvadins have to say
> about the allegations of Ram's illegitimacy ?
You may not have written it but the writer of web page is  really
perverted and obscene.
It should be below the taste level of the readers of this list to make
any further comments in this regard.
I have never heard about the so-called Muni.

--
Have a peaceful and joyous day.
Aditya Mishra
Primary e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ # 1131674 Mediaring # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        A mighty flame followeth a tiny spark. - Dante, Italian poet




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sun Jun 27 16:30:46 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 09:30:46 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian; and open-mindedness
Message-ID: <161227050972.23782.12913874914102691768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel wrote:
>
>
> And again:
> >  Sanskrit is very similar in structure to Dravidian.
>
> Sentences like these betray absolute innocence with regard to IE word
> formation & grammar in general.
> This has already been explained by other members . The upshot is that
> Nothing  that is said about IE / non_IE  or Indo_Aryan/ non-IA in South
> Asia can be taken seriously.
>

As I said, a lack of an open mind.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala




From suji at HOME.COM  Sun Jun 27 13:32:34 1999
From: suji at HOME.COM (Stephens)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 09:32:34 -0400
Subject: Chandogya Upanisad -- mathematics and ritual
Message-ID: <161227050984.23782.9052210690509958320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A chapter on Mathematics from the book "India's Contribution to World
Culture" by Sudheer Birodkar can be found at
http://india.coolatlanta.com/GreatPages/sudheer/maths.html

Sujatha




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jun 27 08:42:03 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 09:42:03 +0100
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian; and open-mindedness
In-Reply-To: <377651B6.D4CB1712@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227050986.23782.3078185558800088481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 9:30 -0700 6/27/99, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:

>> >  Sanskrit is very similar in structure to Dravidian.

>> Sentences like these betray absolute innocence with regard to IE word
>> formation & grammar in general.
>> This has already been explained by other members . The upshot is that
>> Nothing  that is said about IE / non_IE  or Indo_Aryan/ non-IA in South
>> Asia can be taken seriously.
>>
>
>As I said, a lack of an open mind.


Somebone who denies that

* Skt & IE  as inflected languages (with stem variation, suffixes and
prefixes and with a  apophony <Ablaut> in roots, stems  and affixes)
* and Dravidian  (with agglutinative structure)
are different in their most basic set-up <not to speak of their roots>,
and who denies this in spite of having been shown that by Indology members
(such as HH Hock)

has a fixed mind set.

I rest my case: Rgveda10.10.13a.  ---   ity alam.




 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jun 27 08:48:52 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 09:48:52 +0100
Subject: Original  Dravidian  Homeland
In-Reply-To: <3762DBE9.580@erols.com>
Message-ID: <161227050989.23782.16857122700559691540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 18:15 -0400 6/12/99, Balaji Hebbar wrote:
 the  "Dravidian  migration"  theory  had  any  connections  and
>implications  to  the  "Aryan"  one.

Complex issue. The RV is  Indo_Aryan but it has  substrate words from
Drav., Munda, and other substrate languages. In a strange, unexpected
leveling. Details in EJVS (late June)

>Also,  are  there  any  people  in  South  Asia  who  neither  speak  an
>"Aryan"  nor  Dravidian  language?  If  so,  where  would  they  fit  in
>to  all  this?  And  are  there  any  theories  on  these  people?

Zvelebil  (1990) found a few non- Nilgiri substrate words even in these
isolated  Dravidian languages.

>Are the  Veddas  of  Ceylon  these  people?

Yes. Some examples from the Vedda substrate (now speaking the IA Sinhala)
forthcoming in EJVS. Or the Kusunda in Nepal and the Nahali  on the upper
Tapti, or the "Language X" substrate in Hindi, etc. ( C. Masica).  Or
Andaman. -- Plus some more.
**Complexity**  is the story, not a simple  Aryan/Dravidian divide.

For other details see already H.H.Hock's message.

LM Fosse writes:
 >> Sergent, it is the whites who have lost their original black color - I
assume due to the bleaching northern climate

or rather by genetic shift: by their eating of vitamin C -producing grains
(instead of absorbing the little one can get of it in the northern climate
from the sun's rays, through the skin) -- if I remember Cavalli-Sforza's
(1994) argument well.

Sergent's theory of a Dravidian move from the E. Sudan (whence the alleged
African relationships with the Wolof etc., now in Senegal!)  to Central
Asia (whence the similarity with Finno-Ugric etc.)   to India is rather
contorted, and as H.H. Hock has already pointed out, not proved as far as
W. African languages are concerned. (Since L. Senghor, a cottage industry
of Indologists and others in Dakar).



 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Sun Jun 27 08:22:32 1999
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 13:52:32 +0530
Subject: The conception of Rama
In-Reply-To: <377516E6.D694CE57@bc.seflin.org>
Message-ID: <161227050976.23782.11520085347714493130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 26 Jun 1999, Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic wrote:
> [T]he biological father of Ram is as much mystery as biological father
> of Jesus.

The following article in `Modern Rationalist' states that after the
ashwamedha Dasaratha handed over his queens to the disciples of guru
Kalaikottu Muni. The author then concludes that one of the disciples of
Kalaikottu Muni was the real father of Rama & not Dasaratha. (this is not
my work)
           http://www.periyar.org/mr/983mr6.htm

 Is this story universally accepted ? What do Hindutvadins have to say
about the allegations of Ram's illegitimacy ?
- Samar




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Sun Jun 27 11:53:43 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 13:53:43 +0200
Subject: Chandogya Upanisad -- mathematics and ritual
In-Reply-To: <002901bebe5e$1c73b1a0$1051b59d@dial.elte.hu>
Message-ID: <161227050981.23782.5949529061983842439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> "the science of ritual" (as can be seen from Olivelle's own notes, which
> you may find useful otherwise as well) is "brahmavidyA", and "mathematics"
> is "rAzi" [in other transcriptions "ra-s'i" or "raas'i"]. rAzi, m. in the
> standard dictionaries means: 1. heap, mass, pile, quantity, number 2. a
> sign of the Zodiac.

Thank you for your help.  It does not seem that the "mathematics"
(rAzi) mentioned in the Upanisad has any connection as such with
geometry of altars.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Jun 28 01:15:53 1999
From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 18:15:53 -0700
Subject: Dharma, rta, satya
In-Reply-To: <199906261318.PAA23909@mx1.polbox.com>
Message-ID: <161227051003.23782.714579587149499385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Artur Karp wrote:
>
>one more
>version of the core conflict of the Mbh.: that between the law and the truth
>(dharma vs. satya.)

It would appear that those scholars who read Rta in the Rg veda as "cosmic
order" would tend to see equivalences between vedic Rta and epic dharma. On
the other hand, those scholars who read rta in the RV as "truth"see
themselves as the opposing camp -- truth vs cosmic order.
Would satya in the MBh, for the Rta = truth advocates, be some kind of an
epic equivalent of vedic Rta?

Beatrice Reusch
University of California, Berkeley




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jun 27 20:26:03 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 20:26:03 +0000
Subject: Drona in Mahabharata
Message-ID: <161227051008.23782.9780068871080268024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

B. Reusch wrote:
>
> Here is a philological query I received, hoping it would elicit
> enlightening comments from you. Thanks.
>
> >       I would appreciate any help with my attempt to understand an
> >apparent incoherence in the Mahabharata's account of Drona's feud with
> >Drupada. For those familiar with the unique text-critical issues of the
> >MBh, I wish to issue a disclaimer: I am not attempting to discern the
> >"original" text for this episode. The episode is basically as follows:
> >       In the Mahabharata, child Drona, son of the sage Bharadvaja,
> >befriends Drupada, the son of his father's friend, King Prsata. When they
> >grow up, Drupada becomes king, and his childhood brahmana friend, Drona,
> >apparently in need of money to support his young family, approaches
> >Drupada to cash in on their old friendship. Drupada, however, haughtily
> >rejects Drona, insisting that a rich, powerful king can hardly be friends
> >with a poor, powerless figure like Drona, the refrain of this conceited
> >sermon being sakhi-purvam kim isyate, roughly "what is the use of old
> >friends?"
> >       Here are the some of my observations, explicitly stated or
> >seemingly entailed by the extant MBh texts:
> >1. The Adi-parva, Ch 121-122 clearly states that Drona first married Krpi,
> >and had a child, the future serial-killer Asvatthaman, BEFORE approaching
> >Drupada.
> >2. Krpi, and her twin-brother Krpa, were adopted children of the great
> >king Santanu, the highly revered grandfather of Dhrtarastra and Pandu.
> >3. Krpa enjoyed an unquestioned status as a well-maintained acarya of the
> >royal Kuru household, and his saintly sister Krpi, Drona's wife, enjoyed a
> >similar, highly respected status.
> >4. This means that Drona must have been a most respectable figure in the
> >Kurus' eyes, since they gave Krpi to him as his wife. Indeed Drona's
> >father is the saintly Bharadvaja.
> >5. This makes Drona a virtual son-in-law of Santanu, a brother-in-law of
> >Krpa, and a type of uncle to the de-facto king, Dhrtarastra.
> >6. That Drona was well-known to the Kurus is seen in the incident where he
> >deftly rescues the ball (or whatever they were playing with) that the Kuru
> >princes had lost in a well. When the princes ask Drona who he is, he says,
> >"Just tell Bhisma about me, and he'll know," and Bhisma does know.
> >       Therefore, here are the problems:
> >1. With such superlative connections to the richest family in the world,
> >how can Drona be a destitute brahmana, who explicitly tells Parasurama,
> >for example, "I come seeking money," and then goes to Drupada?
> >2. Why would Drupada reject Drona as a poor beggar, since Drona had
> >already married into the most aristocratic Kuru dynasty? Drupada mentions
> >later that he was a close friend of Pandu, the departed Kuru king, and
> >that Drupada had always dreamed of marrying his daughter Draupadi to one
> >of Pandu's sons. The texts mention no troubles between the Kurus and the
> >neighboring Pancalas after Pandu's death, and Drona is a member of the
> >Kuru royal household.
> >       In the dialogue between Drona and Drupada, Drupada is a monstrous
> >caricature of a haughty, successful man rejecting his old friend. The
> >whole episode seems problematic.
> >       Have any scholars written on this, to anyone's knowledge? All help
> >will be cheerfully appreciated.
>
> Beatrice Reusch
> University of California, Berkeley

Juane 28,99
Dear Beatrice Reuch,
It seems to me that Drona's destitution is nothing unusual or inexplicable if one remem-
bers the ancient Indian caste restrictions. Till a generation ago in India, it was
noticeble  in this form of destitution  was often forced upon persons who could find
the job as allowed  to them in their caste.
Drona was a Brahmin, he could earn a reasonable standard of living ONLY by being a
good teacher.  No matter what his family connections he could not have had a share in
the revenues or land holdings or incomes allowed to kshatryiyas. The request made by him
to Drupad should not be seen as demand for money or wealth but for status and patronage.
Even if Drupad had given him half his kingdom, social norms could have permitted Drona
the Brahmin to live the life of a ruling class kshatriya. It would have been compulsory
for Drona to have returned or distributed that wealth among the needy or learned.
Drupad failed in his obligation as a "friend". It is permitted to seek help from  a
friend,  but not from a father-in-law. Even to this day in India , those who proudly
observe the traditional rules of inheritance would not accept a status conferred on
them by the in laws. In ancient society kings often married their daughters to rishis.
But the rishis were not allowed to share kingly wealth. It was a "ritual" to confer a
kingdom on a saint or arishi or a sanyasin, who would return it to the donor to be kept
as "his" property.  Drupad failed not only as a friend but as kshatriya also. These
ways of demonstrating magnanimity and mutual bonds.
I cannot quote any smritis to support my argument. But this was a customary law that
can be seen in many puranic myths.




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jun 27 20:35:17 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 20:35:17 +0000
Subject: muraja drum
Message-ID: <161227051010.23782.5542893458683452032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

arul kumaresan wrote:
>
> Seeking Sanskritists' help on the drum/big drum `muraja'.
> Is it from Indo-Iranian heritage?
>
> Or,
> Is Skt. muraja from Dravidian muracam? Classical Tamil
> texts have royal drum, muracam/muracu/muraicu.
> Usually, these muracam-s were kept on a decorated cot
> in the palace. Sangam texts portray muracam-s being
> carried by elephants and royal commands proclaimed.
> Any comments on Skt. muraja and Ta. muracam?
>
> Thanks a million,
> Arul
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

An observation:
If it is granted that the Natyasastra is the oldest text of musicological terms
, that older that Sangam literature and Silapaddikaram ( I have demostrated that
Natyasastra preceded in its earliest versions the the Valmikiya Ramayana , pl see
my book ,  Dramatic Concepts Greek and Indian, DELHI, D.K. Printworld, 1994,
 MURAJA is the most important drum instrument of the ancient times. Chapters 28,
33, 34 and 36 all mention its playig in detail.
Bharat Gupt
Assoc. Prof. Delhi Univ.




From Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH  Sun Jun 27 19:36:37 1999
From: Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH (Anand Nayak)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 20:36:37 +0100
Subject: New on the list
In-Reply-To: <002301bec0a8$0c276660$69349fca@Nitai.csBali>
Message-ID: <161227051000.23782.2745404216970992970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Dear Janma,

I am in Switzerland. Nice to hear from Bali! Here are some books which
might interest you:

R.C.Majumdar, Hindu Colonies in the Far East, 2nd. ed. Calcutta:Firma
K.L. Mukhyopadhyay, 1963; H.G.Q.Wales, Towards Angkor; idem. Making of
Greater India, London, 1951.


The Visnusahasranama  is available in many different editions. You
might find the following useful: S.V.Rama Sastri,
Visnu-Sahasranamastotra with Sanmkara's commentary, Madras 1931; R.Rama
Sastry, Visnusahasranama (2 vols )Mysore, 1960-61.


If you would like to switch over  sometimes to Sivasahasranama, there
is a new book by a Jesuit priest from Pune: Subhash Anand, Siva's
Thopusans names, Intercultural Publications, New Delhi, 1998.


Wish you a good reading. 

A. Nayak.






<excerpt>Dear people,

</excerpt></smaller></fontfamily><excerpt> 

</excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>I am 

<excerpt>a new subscriber to this list, or in fact to any list. I live
in Bali and I am interested in understanding the roots of the Hindu
culture here. I also lived in India for several years though mainly in
Bengal. I have heard that the first traders that bought Hinduisim to
Indonesia were from Gujarat. Does anybody know anything about the roots
of Hinduisim in Java and Bali?

Also I am looking for a transliteration of the One Thousand Names of
Visnu (sahasra nama) if anybody knows of where I can find one.

</excerpt></smaller></fontfamily><excerpt> 

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Thanks before,

</smaller></fontfamily> 

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Janma Carmody.

</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>

</smaller></fontfamily>
Sarvesham svastirbhavatu        May all be prosperous 

sarvesham santirbhavatu         May all be  peaceful

sarvesham purnambhavatu         May all be whole

sarvesam mangalambhavatu        May all be happy


INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS

INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN

Universit? de Fribourg

Avenue de l'Europe 20

CH-1700 Fribourg

Tel:    026/ 300 74 38 (Office)

        026/ 475 27 91 (Private)

Fax;    026/ 300 9768


URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr


Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK        
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From brmurthy at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 28 04:23:07 1999
From: brmurthy at YAHOO.COM (Byrav Ramamurthy)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 21:23:07 -0700
Subject: New on the list
Message-ID: <161227051005.23782.13167542170216969656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The vishnu sahasranaama is available as part of the ITRANS Song Book.
http://chandra.astro.indiana.edu/isongs/sanskrit/ascii/vsahasr.s

Regards,
Byrav

--- Janma Carmody <janmacar at INDO.NET.ID> wrote:
> Also I am looking for a transliteration of the One Thousand Names of Visnu
> (sahasra nama) if anybody knows of where I can find one.
>
> Thanks before,
>
> Janma Carmody.




_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From kekai at JPS.NET  Mon Jun 28 04:27:02 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 21:27:02 -0700
Subject: Is "Sanskrit" Dravidian; and open-mindedness
Message-ID: <161227050997.23782.12933432836594832931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel wrote:

> >> Nothing  that is said about IE / non_IE  or Indo_Aryan/ non-IA in South
> >> Asia can be taken seriously.
> >>
> >
> >As I said, a lack of an open mind.
>
> Somebone who denies that
>
> * Skt & IE  as inflected languages (with stem variation, suffixes and
> prefixes and with a  apophony <Ablaut> in roots, stems  and affixes)
> * and Dravidian  (with agglutinative structure)
> are different in their most basic set-up <not to speak of their roots>,
> and who denies this in spite of having been shown that by Indology members
> (such as HH Hock)
>
> has a fixed mind set.
>

That's only one side of the argument.  A closed mind is indicated by
the following types of statements made by yourself:


> >> Nothing  that is said about IE / non_IE  or Indo_Aryan/ non-IA in South
> >> Asia can be taken seriously.

Translated: 'We refuse to actually listen to anyone that doesn't agree
with our conclusions.'

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala




From janmacar at INDO.NET.ID  Sun Jun 27 14:19:19 1999
From: janmacar at INDO.NET.ID (Janma Carmody)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 22:19:19 +0800
Subject: New on the list
Message-ID: <161227050994.23782.11205765734683886506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear people,

I am a new subscriber to this list, or in fact to any list. I live in Bali and I am interested in understanding the roots of the Hindu culture here. I also lived in India for several years though mainly in Bengal. I have heard that the first traders that bought Hinduisim to Indonesia were from Gujarat. Does anybody know anything about the roots of Hinduisim in Java and Bali?
Also I am looking for a transliteration of the One Thousand Names of Visnu (sahasra nama) if anybody knows of where I can find one.

Thanks before,

Janma Carmody.


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From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 28 07:10:03 1999
From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 08:10:03 +0100
Subject: Dharma, rta, satya
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b39c7a7cb9ea@[208.250.197.79]>
Message-ID: <161227051012.23782.1305339998302938860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Date sent:              Sun, 27 Jun 1999 18:15:53 -0700
Send reply to:          Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From:                   "B. Reusch" <reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject:                Dharma, rta, satya
To:                     INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

>  Artur Karp wrote:
> >
> >one more
> >version of the core conflict of the Mbh.: that between the law and the truth
> >(dharma vs. satya.)
>
> It would appear that those scholars who read Rta in the Rg veda as "cosmic
> order" would tend to see equivalences between vedic Rta and epic dharma. On
> the other hand, those scholars who read rta in the RV as "truth"see
> themselves as the opposing camp -- truth vs cosmic order.
> Would satya in the MBh, for the Rta = truth advocates, be some kind of an
> epic equivalent of vedic Rta?
>
> Beatrice Reusch
> University of California, Berkeley

Observation
The difference between rta and satya on the one hand and dharma
on the other can be best illustrated by that between 'constitution'
and 'rules and regulations' of an organisation. Keeping the
constitution intact, rules are changed from time to time. Ancient
authors including those of the Mahabharata are aware of this
difference as can be judged from the following quotes:
(1)  zrutir vibhinnA smRtayash ca bhinnA
        naiko munir yasya vacaH pramANam /
        dharmasya tattvaM nihitaM guhAyAM
        mahAjano yena gataH sa panthAH // (Mahabharata)
(2)  anye kRtayuge dharmAs tretAyAM dvApare 'pare /
        anye kaliyuge nRNAM yugahrAsAnurUpataH //
                                                                        (ManusmRti)
To use modern terminology, rta /satya is nature while dharma is
culture which is man-made. It is an erroneous identification of the
two that has led human groups to devastating conflicts as history
(including the current one) amply testifies.

KSA <arjunwadkar at mcmail.com>




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun 28 09:21:17 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 10:21:17 +0100
Subject: Linguistic KB (was Re: Original Dravidian Homeland)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9906191104.A8949-0100000@netcom12>
Message-ID: <161227051028.23782.4428255192665474621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:26 -0700 6/19/99, Das Devaraj wrote:
>So that puts 4000 BCE (or 6000 years ago) as the upper limit
>of the currently known linguistic knowledge base.

 and Dominik has questioned that date as well:
>Do you have good reasons to disagree with the techniques for linguistic
>chronometrics and language drift

This point of view has been strongly criticised by the Long Range
Comparitivists such as M. Ruhlen who attributes it squarely  to a "myth"
concocted  due to the domination of historical linguistics by
Indo-Europeanists and their perception that IE (and other languages) do not
allow reconstruction beyond c. 4000 BCE (sometimes 6000 BCE).
(Merritt Ruhlen, On the origin of languages, Stanford Univ. Press 1994 etc.)

He may not be quite right in this anti-IE analysis, but there are scholars
in various fields  who maintain that sounds just change too much over time
as to allow reconstruction beyond such limits, --  as, for example, is
necessary for  Nostratic = (IE, Dravidian, Uralic, Altaic, Afro-Asiatic,
part of the Caucaus languages) at 10,000 BCE or even earlier.

On the other hand, he is right in pointing out that some sounds change
less, on *average*, than others (for example the resonants and the
sibilants -- of course one can readily find some counter-examples),  and he
certainly is right in saying that some configurations in various language
families have virtually not changed over millennia.
(I remember to have read that argument already in 1966/7 , made by one of
the early Soviet Nostratic linguists.)

However that may be, it allows some confidence in the proceedings, e.g. of
the Nostraticists who simply use the principles of  'traditional'
historical linguistics to go beyond the arbitrary 6000 year level.

Even some of the long range comparitivists now begin the move towards
establishing regular sound correspondences between the world's
(macro-)families. And also in establishing the recostruction of
grammatical elements.

Both of which will be the proof of the pudding.

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jun 28 10:47:47 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 10:47:47 +0000
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227051030.23782.5683840664910991303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rama's Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic wrote:
>
> Samar Abbas wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 26 Jun 1999, Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic wrote:
> > > [T]he biological father of Ram is as much mystery as biological father
> > > of Jesus.
> >
> > The following article in `Modern Rationalist' states that after the
> > ashwamedha Dasaratha handed over his queens to the disciples of guru
> > Kalaikottu Muni. The author then concludes that one of the disciples of
> > Kalaikottu Muni was the real father of Rama & not Dasaratha. (this is not
> > my work)
> >            http://www.periyar.org/mr/983mr6.htm
> >
> >  Is this story universally accepted ? What do Hindutvadins have to say
> > about the allegations of Ram's illegitimacy ?
> You may not have written it but the writer of web page is  really
> perverted and obscene.
> It should be below the taste level of the readers of this list to make
> any further comments in this regard.
> I have never heard about the so-called Muni.
>
> --
> Have a peaceful and joyous day.
> Aditya Mishra
> Primary e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org
> Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
> ICQ # 1131674 Mediaring # 1-954-746-0442
> Fax #:  209-315-8571
> Random thought of the day:
>         A mighty flame followeth a tiny spark. - Dante, Italian poet.


Rama's birth should seen in all its profundity and sanctity as a mythical retelling of
the perfectly legal ancient system of niyoga.  To put it too simply and briefly,
niyoga was Vedic and post Vedic practice (surviving as customary law in amended form
in Haryana even today, and elsewhere) when a brother, kin, or a learned, well known
brahmin or rishi was called upon to cohabit ritually, according to prescribed norms,
the wife of a person desiring continuation of his family line. The child was not only
 a legal inheritor in every way any other child, but was also known forever as a product
of the niyoga-doing person.  Obviously Rama,and his brothers were born of niyoga. Later
on, the aitiological version of the story, as told in Valmiki and successive Ramayanas
is later reworking of the ancient niyoga fact as by the later epic period niyoga seems
to have receeded to the background.

The vedic niyoga was much simpler, rational and mutually respectful than its
modern technological version of fertility clinics. It went beyond patriarchal ego
and feimine whims. The modern version is a hoax, a religious perversion, a tremendous
waste of medical resources and anti-poor. It is open to commercial abuse and
exploitation of the therd-world people by first world technology. The modern
rationalists, who speially in India, only rejoice in reviling the ancient Indian
civilisation, have no guts to advocate a return to niyoga or modernise it even for the
sake of women freedom.  Nor do those claiming to advocate a scientific and liberal
outlook have the humility t learn from ancient civilisations which found abiding answers
to problems that we face even now.

Bharat Gupt
Assoc. Prof. Delhi Univ




From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ  Mon Jun 28 09:02:57 1999
From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 11:02:57 +0200
Subject: Ajanta Cave No. 10
Message-ID: <161227051018.23782.17881987996020845425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

I wonder if anybody familiar with Ajanta could furnish
particulars about the donor of Ajanta Cave 10, who wrote:
"may whatever merit is in this, be for the release from
miseries of all sentient creatures".
How is it in original, what is the name and/or designation
of the "dAtA"?
With mettA
J. Filipsky

Jan Filipsky, PhD.
Oriental Institute
Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8
The Czech Republic
phone ++4202/6605 3729

home: U Pentlovky 466/7, 181 00 Praha 8
phone ++4202/855 74 53




From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Mon Jun 28 10:35:08 1999
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 12:35:08 +0200
Subject: Ajanta Cave No. 10
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990628110257.007da1b0@lorien.site.cas.cz>
Message-ID: <161227051021.23782.15441081645974470025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 28 Jun 99, at 11:02, Jan Filipsky wrote:

> I wonder if anybody familiar with Ajanta could furnish particulars
> about the donor of Ajanta Cave 10, who wrote: "may whatever merit
> is in this, be for the release from miseries of all sentient
> creatures". How is it in original, what is the name and/or
> designation of the "dAtA"? 

N.P. Chakravarti, ``Appendix. A Note on the Painted 
Inscriptions in Caves VI-XVII", p. 91 (in: G. Yazdani: Ajanta. 
Pt. III. Repr. Delhi 1983):
``[Cave X] 2. On the left wall opposite the space between the 
fifth and sixth columns. Fragmentary; three lines [...].
1 [Aa]chaaryya - - - - - Sachivasya
2 d[eyadha]rmm[o] yad=atra pu.nya.m tad=bhavatu sa[rvva*-] 
[sa]-
3 tvaanaa[.m] du - - - - -
`(This is) is the meritorious gift of the teacher - - - - - Sachiva. 
Whatever merit is in the this let that be for (removing the 
misery) of all sentient beings.?
This inscription has suffered most since the time of Burgess [see 
``Archaeological Survey of Western India", Vol. IV, ``Reports 
on the Buddhist Cave-Temples and their Inscriptions", p. 137, 
no. 7 and pl. LXI, issued in 1883 as supplementary to the volume 
on ``The Cave-Temples of India"]. [...] In line 3 nothing is legible 
now after du, but Burgess?s plate clearly shows du.hkhamochaa -
 which is apparently a misreading for du.hkha-mocha[naaya*]."

All the best,
Roland Steiner




From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Mon Jun 28 11:07:19 1999
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 13:07:19 +0200
Subject: Ajanta Cave No. 10
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990628110257.007da1b0@lorien.site.cas.cz>
Message-ID: <161227051023.23782.17391686508250238615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For further inscriptions of the type deyadharmmo ?ya.m  ... (of, 
title + name) ... yad atra pu.nya.m tad bhavatu sarvva-
satvaana.m, see Gregory Schopen, ``Mahaayaana in Indian 
Inscriptions", in ``Indo-Iranian Journal" 21 (1979), pp. 1-19; also, 
id.: ``Two Problems in the History of Indian Buddhism: The 
Layman/Monk Distinction and the Doctrines of the 
Transference of Merit", in ``Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik" 
10 (1985), pp. 9-47, esp. pp. 38 ff.; see Adelheid Herrmann-
Pfandt: ``Verdienstuebetragung im Hiinayaana and 
Mahaayaana", in ``Suh.rllekhaa.h. Festgabe fuer Helmut Eimer. 
Swisttal-Odendorf 1996 (= Indica et Tiberica. 28), pp. 79-98, for 
further literature.

All the best,
Roland Steiner




From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU  Mon Jun 28 18:23:48 1999
From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph G. Walser)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 14:23:48 -0400
Subject: Looking for S.V. Sohoni
Message-ID: <161227051032.23782.13639400443150518005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could anyone out there tell me an e-mail/snail-mail address for S.V.
Sohoni? Thanks in advance.
Joseph

Joseph Walser
Dept. of Comparative Religion
Tufts University
Medford, MA.
(617) 627-2322
fax: (617) 627-3191




From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO  Mon Jun 28 12:15:46 1999
From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 15:15:46 +0300
Subject: Address needed
Message-ID: <161227051025.23782.11120131436374041960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the list,

Can someone kindly give me the address of Dr. Richard Barz.

Thank you, and with best wishes,

Ruth Schmidt


***********************************************
Ruth Laila Schmidt
Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no




From janmacar at INDO.NET.ID  Mon Jun 28 08:04:33 1999
From: janmacar at INDO.NET.ID (Janma Carmody)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 16:04:33 +0800
Subject: New on the list
Message-ID: <161227051015.23782.8531807637855205583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,

Thanks for your reply. I am glad to have the list of resources you provided. Lets hope I can order them over the net.
I would also like to see the Sivasahasranama, though I must say that I am interested in the Visnusahasranama because when I lived in India I have seen it many times used as a tool to move bad energy or 'spirits' from a house or other areas. Space clearing is something done on a daily basis in Bali and thats what Visnusahasranama is good for. Though the way that Hindu's in Bali recite these mantras, sloka's etc is totally different to the method in India, I want to compare the two versions. I somehow think the Sivasahasranama may have a somewhat different effect because Ghosts and spirits are Siva's cronies......what is Sivasaharsanama used for then? I wonder?
Janma.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Anand Nayak <Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH>
    To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
    Date: Monday, 28 June 1999 3:39
    Subject: Re: New on the list
    
    
    Dear Janma,
    I am in Switzerland. Nice to hear from Bali! Here are some books which might interest you:
    R.C.Majumdar, Hindu Colonies in the Far East, 2nd. ed. Calcutta:Firma K.L. Mukhyopadhyay, 1963; H.G.Q.Wales, Towards Angkor; idem. Making of Greater India, London, 1951.
    
    The Visnusahasranama is available in many different editions. You might find the following useful: S.V.Rama Sastri, Visnu-Sahasranamastotra with Sanmkara's commentary, Madras 1931; R.Rama Sastry, Visnusahasranama (2 vols )Mysore, 1960-61.
    
    If you would like to switch over sometimes to Sivasahasranama, there is a new book by a Jesuit priest from Pune: Subhash Anand, Siva's Thopusans names, Intercultural Publications, New Delhi, 1998.
    
    Wish you a good reading. 
    A. Nayak.
    
    
    
    
    
    
        Dear people,
        
    
        
    I am 
    
        a new subscriber to this list, or in fact to any list. I live in Bali and I am interested in understanding the roots of the Hindu culture here. I also lived in India for several years though mainly in Bengal. I have heard that the first traders that bought Hinduisim to Indonesia were from Gujarat. Does anybody know anything about the roots of Hinduisim in Java and Bali?
        Also I am looking for a transliteration of the One Thousand Names of Visnu (sahasra nama) if anybody knows of where I can find one.
        
    
        Thanks before,
        
        Janma Carmody.
        
    
    Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous 
    sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful
    sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole
    sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy
    
    INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS
    INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN
    Universit? de Fribourg
    Avenue de l'Europe 20
    CH-1700 Fribourg
    Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office)
    026/ 475 27 91 (Private)
    Fax; 026/ 300 9768
    
    URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr
    
    Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK 


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From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jun 28 23:23:18 1999
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 16:23:18 -0700
Subject: Dakshinamurti and Nataraja
Message-ID: <161227051037.23782.17482110716608069449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In  http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/palaniappan-patanjali.html,
we find an essay, Madurai and Chidambaram:
The Tamil Cities that created Important Sanskrit Myths.

 >competition between Pandyas of Madurai and the Pallavas/Cholas
 >associated with Chidambaram, [...]
 >The fact that they chose pataJjali means that they were not looking
 >for a grammarian, but rather an authority on yoga. This will make
 >sense if one compares the dancing god of Chidambaram with
 >dakSiNAmUrti of Madurai. dakSiNAmUrt is the ultimate teacher-yogi.
 >By recruiting pataJjali as naTarAja's devotee, the dancing god
 >becomes a master of yoga too. [...]
 >Thus the legend of the dancing god at Chidambaram who originally
 >could not have had the yogic and grammatical wherewithal to compete
 >against the teacher-yogi dakSiNAmUrti of Madurai was complemented by
 >the addition of a grammarian and a yogi as disciples.

  The competition between Dakshinamurti myth of Potiyil/Maturai
  region of Pandyas and Nataraja cult from Chidambaram of
  Pallava-Cholas is narrated in kUrmapurANam also. In the KP, the
  four Rishis associated with Dakshinamurti watch the
  Ananda tANDava dance at Chidambaram.

  C. Sivaramamurti, Nataraja, 1974, p. 159
  " Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanaatana, SanatkumAra and others are
  mentioned, as witnessing his dance: kRitArtham menire
  santaH .... sanatkumAras sanako  bhRiGgis cha sanAtanas chaiva
  sanandanas cha (KUrmapurANa, Part 2, 5,17).
    This description of 'Siva's dance, witnessed by Sanaka, Sanandana,
  Sanaatana, SanatkumAra and other sages, is clearly answered in
  the elaborate representation in paintings in Kerala.
  The dance of 'Siva in the sky, famous in Chidambaram, and the dance
  of bliss, AnandatANDava, is also clear in the lines: pazyAmas
  tvAm paramAkAzamadhye nRityantam te mahimAnam smarAmaH
  sarvAtmAnAm bahudhA sannivishTam brahmAnandam chAnubhUyAnubhUya
  (KP, Part 2,5,27).
    That he dances in the heart is also very clearly stated here:
  pazyAmas tvAm jagato hetubhUtam nRityantam sve hRidaye sannivishTam
  (KP, Part 2, 5, 25). "

  Recently, Muthuswamy Dikshitar has two krithis:
  a)'SivakAmi patim cintayAmyaham  ...
  navapurandarAdi sanakAdi sannuta ..
  b) kanaka sabhApatim bhajare mAnasa ...
  sanaka sanandanAdi vinuta padam
  zivakAmezvari manollAsa karam

 >It was not that Chidambaram alone tried to emulate Madurai. Madurai
 >did reverse too. The ziva myths of Madurai include stories of the
 >Pandyan king learning to dance and begging ziva to switch his legs
 >so that ziva will be more comfortable. The result is of course, the
 >right leg is lifted and left leg is planted , just the opposite of
 >the pose in Chidambaram. In ziva's wedding at Madurai, pataJjali
 >and vyAghrapAda participate and ziva dances for their sake. Of
 >course, it so happens that the author of the first text of Madurai
 >stories is perumparRRap puliyUr nampi named after Chidambaram.

       See the 9-10th century Chola bronze from PoruppumETTupaTTi
       in Madurai district. A beautiful masterpiece of NaTarAja
       where the *right* leg is lifted up (kunchita pAdam).
       Even though Cholas were in control of Pandyan Madurai then,
       they pay respects to the native tradition by casting NaTarAja
       in the local tradition, opposite of the Chidambaram mode.

       Additionally, the five sabhas where Nataraja dances -
       there is only one in Pallava area (AlaGkADu),
       only the Chidambaram in Chola terrain, But *three*
       dance halls in Pandya country! - silver hall at Madurai,
       copper hall in Nelveli, and citra hall at Potiyil (kuRRAlam)
       shows adapting Dance motifs of Chidambaram.

Regards,
V. Iyer


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Mon Jun 28 20:27:56 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 16:27:56 -0400
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227051035.23782.11980823283294585413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bharat Gupt wrote:
>
> Rama's birth should seen in all its profundity and sanctity as a mythical retelling of
> the perfectly legal ancient system of niyoga.  To put it too simply and briefly,
> niyoga was Vedic and post Vedic practice (surviving as customary law in amended form

On what basis do you assert that the system of Niyoga was Vedic? In
which Veda is it prescribed? Please provide some reference.

Of course, Ramayan is an epic with mythical characters created by its
author who in tradition of day even had himself participate in its story
as real life character. Who are you to say what he had in mind other
than what you can read in his writing?


--
Have a peaceful and joyous day.
Aditya Mishra
Primary e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ # 1131674 Mediaring # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        Gauls! We have nothing to fear; except perhaps that the sky may fall on
our heads tomorrow. But as we all know, tomorrow never
comes!---Adventures of Asterix.




From fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 29 03:11:13 1999
From: fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM (Christina Fritsch)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 20:11:13 -0700
Subject: Yahoo! Vacation Reply
Message-ID: <161227051053.23782.6343897299761190517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I will be away for overseas for several weeks.  I am not sure if I will be able to pick up my messages,  so if it is urgent please use the university address.  Thanks Caroline

--------------------


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From fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 29 03:12:12 1999
From: fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM (Christina Fritsch)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 20:12:12 -0700
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From fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 29 03:37:41 1999
From: fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM (Christina Fritsch)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 20:37:41 -0700
Subject: Yahoo! Vacation Reply
Message-ID: <161227051057.23782.8672605236496027275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I will be away overseas for several weeks.  I am not sure if I will have the chance to pick up my messages,  so if it is urgent please use the university address.  Thanks Caroline

--------------------


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From signe2 at SAS.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 29 01:07:24 1999
From: signe2 at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Signe Cohen)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 21:07:24 -0400
Subject: Dr. S. Gambhir
In-Reply-To: <v01510101b39e5587ba92@[150.203.88.202]>
Message-ID: <161227051048.23782.3868766905319912096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Gambhir's email address is: sgambhir at sas.upenn.edu
Best regards,
Signe Cohen
(University of Pennsylvania)

Richard Barz wrote:
>
> I would very much appreciate receiving Dr. Surendra Gambhir's email address.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Richard Barz
> ANU
> Canberra
>




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Tue Jun 29 03:30:16 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 23:30:16 -0400
Subject: About the conception of Ram
Message-ID: <161227051055.23782.9515794928662146148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Janma Carmody wrote:
>
> After reading that little piece by the Hindu skeptic I went to the web
> site he had linked to the message and read the little piece in there

Please note that I had not linked any site in my note.
I was just responding to some one else who had provided the link.
I find the link to be equally frivolous.

--
Have a peaceful and joyous day.
Aditya Mishra
Primary e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ # 1131674 Mediaring # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        A city is a large community where people are lonesome together.
---Herbert Prochnow




From janmacar at INDO.NET.ID  Tue Jun 29 00:43:43 1999
From: janmacar at INDO.NET.ID (Janma Carmody)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 99 08:43:43 +0800
Subject: About the conception of Ram
Message-ID: <161227051042.23782.4971805017240242418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

After reading that little piece by the Hindu skeptic I went to the web site he had linked to the message and read the little piece in there about the conception of Ram. I have been on both sides of the skeptisim fence, and I have my doubts about someone using the very scriptures or sources to which they claim skeptisim to back up negative impressions they may have. In the Ramacharitamanasa by Tulasidas, there is no mention of any horse. That's what arguing about ancient scriptures is like....eternal. There is no proof for any of it. My father used to say that "Faith is believing in something you know isn't true."  In a way this is true. Stories change even by the second re-telling....and how old is the story of Ram? This story isn't meant to be dissected and used to justify our lives or actions or to condemn those of others. It is something more than that and you have to have a big heart, not a big brain to understand it. Though I must say arguing is fun....and where would disscussion groups be without arguing and dissecting? Still that fellow has me rankled.......slept with the genitals of a horse inside her indeed....!

Janma


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From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Tue Jun 29 12:52:55 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 99 08:52:55 -0400
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227051066.23782.11664626751060529167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bharat Gupt wrote:

> Regarding evidence of Niyoga in Vedas please refer Rgv 10th Mandala.
> Vedic also means the vedic parampara , all grihya sutras and MAnu,
> Yajnyavalka etc elaborate on Niyoga. Manusmriti Ch9.

There is no single straight line 'Paraampara' and Manusmrit does have a
detailed description of Niyoga but it is such a discredited document
that any mention of it would be anathema to many Hidnua. It is used to
justify rigid casteism including untouchability and injustices which
goes even beyond what Hitler contemplated.

Since it was such an old practice why do think Valmiki not mention it?
If you want to give your interpretation then just say so but do not
ascribe to Valmiki. As I said earlier, I have my own interpretation of
Ramayan to which you agree in your next sentence.

>
> The presence of the "author" as a character in his own created work is a
> methodological device followed in many ancient Indian texts. There is a
> whole system in taking such a posture as a dramatic device.

> Let us not look at things with a wooden realism.  I hope you shall be kind enough to
> look at all the techniques of expression used in older systems and perform a detailed
> skepsis ( which in Greek means deep thought and reasoning, of which questioning is only
> a part) and live upto your title of "skeptik"

I do not need a lesson from you on the meaning of the words that I use
but could you just explain the terms that you use such as difference
between  wooden realism and metallic realism?

It seems that this discussion is going beyond the general interest of
the list members, therefore it would be better if now on we carry on off
the list since you addressed it my attention anyway. Please do not
respond to the  list.
--
Have a peaceful and joyous day.
Aditya Mishra
Primary e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ # 1131674 Mediaring # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        Your analyst has you mixed up with another patient. Don't believe a
thing he tells you.




From janmacar at INDO.NET.ID  Tue Jun 29 00:56:58 1999
From: janmacar at INDO.NET.ID (Janma Carmody)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 99 08:56:58 +0800
Subject: And furthermore
Message-ID: <161227051045.23782.15644250035281874413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This was written about the Ramayana Epic by Tulaisdas in his Ramacaritamanasa.

I shall now relate at some length the seed of the story,--viz., how Goddess Bhavani questioned Lord Sankara and how the latter answered Her questions, weaving a strange narrative round this episode. Let no one who should happen not to have heard thsi anecdote before be surprised to hear it. Wise men who hear this uncommon legend marvel not, for they know there is no limit to the stories of Sri Rama in this world. They are convinced in their heart that Sri Rama has bodied Himself forth in diverse ways and that the Ramayana, though consisting of a thousand million verses, is yet infinite. Great sages have diversely sung the charming stories of Sri Hari relating as they do to different Kalpas or cycles of time. Bearing this in mind, the reader should no entertain any doubt and should hear this narrative reverently and with devotion.
Rama is infinite, infinite are His virtues and the dimensions of His story are also immeasurable. Those whose thoughts are pure will, therefore, feel no surprise when they hear it.

(I happen to think that there are really only two or three stories in this world, and they shapeshift through our cultures and beliefs.....but in the end it is the same story....the story in us all.)


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From emstern at NNI.COM  Tue Jun 29 13:44:02 1999
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 99 09:44:02 -0400
Subject: Dr. S. Gambhir
In-Reply-To: <v01510101b39e5587ba92@[150.203.88.202]>
Message-ID: <161227051069.23782.9535989733051319056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I would very much appreciate receiving Dr. Surendra Gambhir's email address.
>
>Thank you.
>
>Richard Barz
>ANU
>Canberra

sgambhir at sas.upenn.edu


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
USA

telephone: 215 747 6204




From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU  Tue Jun 29 00:47:29 1999
From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 99 10:47:29 +1000
Subject: Dr. S. Gambhir
Message-ID: <161227051039.23782.575264552196991108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would very much appreciate receiving Dr. Surendra Gambhir's email address.

Thank you.

Richard Barz
ANU
Canberra




From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ  Tue Jun 29 11:21:17 1999
From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 99 13:21:17 +0200
Subject: Ajanta Cave No. 10
In-Reply-To: <199906281035.MAA52822@Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Message-ID: <161227051061.23782.6290706494617144249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indology members,
I am very grateful to all those who responded to my query regarding
Ajanta, particularly to Prof. Steiner for his timely and succinct
message. This is yet another proof, if further proofs were needed,
that the Indology list is a marvellous place for collegial exchange
of information.
Enthusiastically Yours, J. Filipsky




Jan Filipsky, PhD.
Oriental Institute
Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8
The Czech Republic
phone ++4202/6605 3729

home: U Pentlovky 466/7, 181 00 Praha 8
phone ++4202/855 74 53




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jun 29 14:33:29 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 99 14:33:29 +0000
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227051059.23782.13598907353397169691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic wrote:
>
> Bharat Gupt wrote:
> >
> > Rama's birth should seen in all its profundity and sanctity as a mythical retelling of
> > the perfectly legal ancient system of niyoga.  To put it too simply and briefly,
> > niyoga was Vedic and post Vedic practice (surviving as customary law in amended form
>
> On what basis do you assert that the system of Niyoga was Vedic? In
> which Veda is it prescribed? Please provide some reference.
>
> Of course, Ramayan is an epic with mythical characters created by its
> author who in tradition of day even had himself participate in its story
> as real life character. Who are you to say what he had in mind other
> than what you can read in his writing?
>
> --
> Have a peaceful and joyous day.
> Aditya Mishra
> Primary e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org
> Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
> ICQ # 1131674 Mediaring # 1-954-746-0442
> Fax #:  209-315-8571
> Random thought of the day:
>         Gauls! We have nothing to fear; except perhaps that the sky may fall on
> our heads tomorrow. But as we all know, tomorrow never
> comes!---Adventures of Asterix.


For Aditya Mishra, Hindu Skeptic and others

Regarding evidence of Niyoga in Vedas please refer Rgv 10th Mandala.
Vedic also means the vedic parampara , all grihya sutras and MAnu,
Yajnyavalka etc elaborate on Niyoga. Manusmriti Ch9.

The presence of the "author" as a character in his own created work is a
methodological device followed in many ancient Indian texts. There is a
whole system in taking such a posture as a dramatic device.
Let us not look at things with a wooden realism.  I hope you shall be kind enough to
look at all the techniques of expression used in older systems and perform a detailed
skepsis ( which in Greek means deep thought and reasoning, of which questioning is only
a part) and live upto your title of "skeptik"
Bharat Gupt
Assoc Prof. Delhi Univ.




From Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH  Tue Jun 29 12:35:06 1999
From: Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Toru Tomabechi)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 99 14:35:06 +0200
Subject: IABS Conference/Abstracts
Message-ID: <161227051064.23782.17998632109686684258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

(This message has been posted to INDOLOGY, BUDDHA-L and to another
closed mailing list. Sorry for inconvenience, if you received it more
than once.)

**** ABSTRACTS FOR THE IABS CONFERENCE, LAUSANNE, AUGUST 23-28 ****


Dear list members,

We are going to put together a booklet of abstracts and distribute it
to the participants on the opening day of the Conference. The
abstracts will also figure on our web page
<http://www-orient.unil.ch/> and will be downloadable.

If you wish your abstract to appear in the printed booklet, PLEASE
MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED IT BY JULY 20TH AT THE LATEST.

Best wishes,

Toru Tomabechi, Secretary
The XIIth IABS Conference
University of Lausanne




From ersand at COCO.IHI.KU.DK  Tue Jun 29 16:01:38 1999
From: ersand at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Erik Sand)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 99 16:01:38 +0000
Subject: Padmavati
Message-ID: <161227051072.23782.12481646454950808994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list-members,

In Pandharpur there is a temple of the goddess Padmavati. The same is the
case near Tirupati. She seems, however, to be a somewhat mysterious figure
and I have been able to come up with very little literature about her.
Ghurye has a few lines about her in his book Gods and Men, taking her,
along with Laksmi, to be a sakti of Visnu. Sontheimer also has a passage
about her in his book on pastoral deities taking her to be a tribal goddess
of the forest, and, finally, Shulman in his Tamil Temple Myths deals with
her in connection with Tirupati. I will surely appreciate, if anyone knows
of any more detailed treatment of this goddess? I am aware of a Devi Kosha
in Marathi which might have a paragraph about her, but it is out of print
and not available to me. If anyone should have access to a copy of this
work, please let me know. Thank you.

Erik Reenberg Sand




From zydenbos at FLEVOLAND.XS4ALL.NL  Wed Jun 30 01:14:44 1999
From: zydenbos at FLEVOLAND.XS4ALL.NL (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 99 23:14:44 -0200
Subject: Padmavati
Message-ID: <161227051075.23782.4581320847072558320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Replies to msg 29 Jun 99: indology at listserv.liv.ac.uk (Erik Sand)

 eIKD> In Pandharpur there is a temple of the goddess Padmavati.
 eIKD> The same is the
 eIKD> case near Tirupati. She seems, however, to be a somewhat
 eIKD> mysterious figure
 eIKD> and I have been able to come up with very little
 eIKD> literature about her.
 eIKD> Ghurye has a few lines about her in his book Gods and Men,
 eIKD> taking her,
 eIKD> along with Laksmi, to be a sakti of Visnu. Sontheimer also
 eIKD> has a passage
 eIKD> about her in his book on pastoral deities taking her to be
 eIKD> a tribal goddess
 eIKD> of the forest, and, finally, Shulman in his Tamil Temple
 eIKD> Myths deals with
 eIKD> her in connection with Tirupati. I will surely appreciate,
 eIKD> if anyone knows
 eIKD> of any more detailed treatment of this goddess?

Among the Jainas she is one of the most prominent yakshis or goddesses, and in southern India (particularly Karnataka) she is the one most adored. I have spoken about her in a lecture at the 33rd ICANAS, and this was later published in the proceedings of the congress: "The Jaina Goddess Padmavati." In: _Contacts Between Cultures: South Asia, volume 2_, ed. Koppedrayer, K.I. (Lewiston/Queenston/Lampeter (Canada): The Edwin Mellen Press, 1990), pp. 257-262. This article is considerably more detailed about Padmaavatii than the one page which I wrote in my article "Jaina Goddesses in Kannada Literature." In: _Studies in South Asian Devotional Literature: Research Papers 1988-1991_, ed. Entwistle, A.W. and F. Mallison, F. (Paris: Ecole francaise d'Extreme-Orient / New Delhi: Manohar), pp. 135-145.

Considering the prominence and ancientness of Padmaavatii as a divine  being among the Jainas and the non-prominence of the Vaishnava Padmaavatii, and considering that Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra border on Karnataka, which for centuries has been a Jaina cultural stronghold (and still is, relatively speaking), it may be not too far-fetched to presume that we have here another case of how a non-brahminical divinity was absorbed into the brahminical pantheon. Cf. also what happened to .R.sabhanaatha in the Hindu puraa.nas, or how Baahubali (Gomma.te;svara) can be seen to occupy the place of the Buddha among the da;saavataaras, e.g. in the sculptures on the outside of the Vidyaa;sa:nkara temple in Sringeri.

There are several claims that Padmaavatii temples in southern India were brahminised into something else, e.g. the Mahaalak.smii temple in Kolhapur. Karnatakan Jainas claim that the same has happened with ;Saaradaa at Sringeri and the now somewhat notorious Yellamma at Saundatti.


Robert Zydenbos
zydenbos at bigfoot.de




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Jun 30 00:29:20 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 99 01:29:20 +0100
Subject: Standard for manuscript descriptions (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227051077.23782.6474966528985046431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:30:54 +0100
From: Peter Robinson <peter.robinson at ENGLISH.OXFORD.AC.UK>
Reply-To: Electronic Access to Medieval ManuscriptS
    <EAMMS at MOE.COMPUTING.CSBSJU.EDU>
To: EAMMS at MOE.COMPUTING.CSBSJU.EDU
Subject: Standard for manuscript descriptions

**** Towards a standard for encoding manuscript descriptions in electronic
form***

Over the past year, a group of manuscript scholars and experts on encoding
of machine-readable texts have been working to define a standard for
representing manuscript descriptions in electronic form.  This work has
been carried forward by a Text Encoding Initiative (TEI) workgroup on
manuscript descriptions, co-chaired by Consuelo Dutschke and Ambrogio
Piazzoni, in partnership with members of the European Union-funded MASTER
project ('Manuscript Access through Standards for Electronic Records'), led
by Peter Robinson.

        The aim of this work is to define a Text Encoding Initiative (TEI)
implementation of SGML (Standard Generalized Markup Language) capable of
holding manuscript descriptions in electronic form.  Following a series of
meetings and discussions among the members of the TEI and MASTER groups
('the proposers'), a draft standard has been formulated.  A paper
describing this draft standard, together with summaries of discussion and
subsequent agreements by the proposers, has now been posted to

        www.cta.dmu.ac.uk/~peterr/master/mssprop1.html

A Word version of the document is available at

        www.cta.dmu.ac.uk/~peterr/master/mssprop1.doc

        We welcome comments and discussion on this paper.  Such comments
should be directed to the EAMMS discussion list (at
EAMMS at MOE.COMPUTING.CSBSJU.EDU) by members of that list; non-members of the
EAMMS list should apply to

       master at dmu.ac.uk

from where their request for membership will be passed on to the EAMMS
list.  The EAMMS list has been established for participants and interested
parties in two American projects, Electronic Access to Medieval
Manuscripts and Digital Scriptorium, which are closely linked to the TEI
and MASTER groups sponsoring these proposals.

Peter Robinson

***NOTE NEW EMAILS: peter.robinson at dmu.ac.uk *********
*****************OR: peter.robinson at english.oxford.ac.uk********************

Director, Centre for Technology and the Arts
Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences
De Montfort University, The Gateway, Leicester LE1 5XY, UK
Phone +44 (0)116 250 6495, fax 257 7250.  http://www.cta.dmu.ac.uk/

The Canterbury Tales Project
Centre for Socio-legal Studies, Wolfson College
Linton Road, Oxford OX2 6UD
Phone +44 (0)1865 284245, fax 284221.  http://www.shef.ac.uk/uni/projects/ctp/




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun 30 08:57:43 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 99 09:57:43 +0100
Subject: The conception of Rama/Niyoga
In-Reply-To: <Version.32.19990630120833.00fc7490@polbox.com>
Message-ID: <161227051087.23782.7891047819880420607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>> Regarding evidence of Niyoga in Vedas

>If anyone is interested - most probably RV X:10.10


The whole problem of niyoga has been dealt with extensively, also in
comparison with Old Iran.,  by Hanns-Peter Schmidt in his Poona lecture
series of 1984(?):

HPS, Some women's rites and rights in the Veda. Poona 1987.



 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From hart at POLBOX.COM  Wed Jun 30 10:15:44 1999
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 99 12:15:44 +0200
Subject: The conception of Rama
In-Reply-To: <3778C1A7.47B82DC3@bc.seflin.org>
Message-ID: <161227051082.23782.579175113640820779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 08:52 29.06.1999 -0400, Aditya the Hindu Sceptic wrote:

>>Bharat Gupt wrote:

>> Regarding evidence of Niyoga in Vedas please refer Rgv 10th Mandala.
>> Vedic also means the vedic parampara , all grihya sutras and MAnu,
>> Yajnyavalka etc elaborate on Niyoga. Manusmriti Ch9.

>There is no single straight line 'Paraampara' and Manusmrit does have a
>detailed description of Niyoga but it is such a >


If anyone is interested - most probably RV X:10.10 is meant (Yama & Yami),
where - according to Swami Dayananda's translation Yama says: "Desire
another husband than myself". Hundred years ago a subject of heated dispute
between sanskritists and Arya-Samajists.

With regards,

Artur Karp
University of Warsaw
Poland




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From hart at POLBOX.COM  Wed Jun 30 10:16:27 1999
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 99 12:16:27 +0200
Subject: Dharma, rta, satya
In-Reply-To: <0a2e34610071c69SKYNET@cwcom.net>
Message-ID: <161227051085.23782.7308775683800171020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 08:10 28.06.1999 +0100, Professor K.S. Arjunwadkar wrote:

>The difference between rta and satya on the one hand and dharma>
>can be best illustrated by that between 'constitution'
>and 'rules and regulations' of an organisation. Keeping the
>constitution intact, rules are changed from time to time.>

An interesting and illustrative observation.

>(1)  zrutir vibhinnA smRtayash ca bhinnA
>        naiko munir yasya vacaH pramANam /
>        dharmasya tattvaM nihitaM guhAyAM
>        mahAjano yena gataH sa panthAH // (Mahabharata)

I seem not to be able to place the quotation in the text of the Critical
Edition. Could you, please, provide precise reference? And - the translation?

With highest regards,

Artur Karp

University of Warsaw
Poland





-------------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ---------------------
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http://www.antykoncepcja.com.pl  ZAPRASZAMY!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Wed Jun 30 18:39:23 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 99 14:39:23 -0400
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227051090.23782.5137975763524876142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Artur Karp wrote:

> If anyone is interested - most probably RV X:10.10 is meant (Yama & Yami),

That dialog refers to incest between siblings and not Niyog (a practice
somewhat equivalent to but before artificial insemination was
discovered). In many civilizations marriage between brothers and sisters
was considered desirable e.g. in ancient Egypt, because the concept of
recessive genes was unknown. In animal breeding such practice is still
prevalent which leads to catastrophic results. We cannot pass judgments
on past practices in terms of the present day ideas of morality.

For instance monogamy is very recent development and many Mormons have
not accepted it completely. We have replaced polygamy with serial
monogamy as more desirable practice in Western cultures.

I have no quarrel with the past practices  but I disagreed with Mr.
Gupta because he was trying to interpret Ramayan's story based on his
perceptions of Vedic morality. i still do not know why he became so
vociferous and upset with my posting since we essentially agreed with
each other about the patrimony of Ram. AFIK,  Valmiki has not left any
hint about identity of the sperm provider for Ram's birth even though I
consider Ramayan to be a book of fiction based on some real life
characters with extensive poetic license in writing it. I did not want
to cast any aspersions on the morality of the practice.




--
Have a peaceful and joyous day.
Aditya Mishra
Primary e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ # 1131674 Mediaring # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        I'm not a friend you haven't met, I'm just a stranger.




From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU  Wed Jun 30 03:53:43 1999
From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 99 14:53:43 +1100
Subject: Standard for manuscript descriptions (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227051079.23782.13640957476534613928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>A Word version of the document is available at
>
>        www.cta.dmu.ac.uk/~peterr/master/mssprop1.doc
>


I downloaded the file but was unable to open it on a Macintosh PPC using
Office 98. I emailed the file to a friendly PC user but they couldn't open
it with Word either.

Anyone else having problems?




From kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun 30 20:16:24 1999
From: kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Kevin McGrath)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 99 16:16:24 -0400
Subject: Rajendra Joshi
In-Reply-To: <199906301129.LAA31512@smtp2.polbox.com>
Message-ID: <161227051092.23782.5048027718589758723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone have the e-mail address or snail-mail address of Dr. Rajendra
Joshi of the Institute of Rajasthan Studies in Jaipur?

Thanks,


                        Kevin McGrath.




From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE  Wed Jun 30 21:09:04 1999
From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 99 23:09:04 +0200
Subject: Standard for manuscript descriptions (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Royce Wiles's message of "Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:53:43 +1100">
Message-ID: <161227051094.23782.8604014492081774264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Royce Wiles <Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU> writes:

> >A Word version of the document is available at
> >
> >        www.cta.dmu.ac.uk/~peterr/master/mssprop1.doc
> >
> I downloaded the file but was unable to open it on a Macintosh PPC
> using Office 98. I emailed the file to a friendly PC user but they
> couldn't open it with Word either.
>
> Anyone else having problems?

I tried it with the free MSWord Viewer on a win95 machine (it is a
viewer for the word 97 or office 97 format). The program opened the
file and displayed it without error messages. So I guess, it is a
typical MS problem with incompatible word formats? Anyway, you will
have no problems in reading the html version ;).

Peter Wyzlic

--
Peter Wyzlic                          Indologisches Seminar
                                      Universitaet Bonn




From hart at POLBOX.COM  Wed Jun 30 21:43:55 1999
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 99 23:43:55 +0200
Subject: The conception of Rama
In-Reply-To: <377A645B.4397A729@bc.seflin.org>
Message-ID: <161227051097.23782.7437718385009287324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Sceptic,


>That dialog refers to incest between siblings and not Niyog >

Of course. But I found it quite peculiar to see in my mail an allusion to
what I thought was an ancient and already forgotten dispute. When Swami
Dayanand proclaimed his project of social reform, the concept of niyoga
became the most obvious target of attacks. On the other hand, while
defending his interpretation of the RV X:10.10, the followers of the Swami
had a good opportunity to attack the Western way of interpreting the Vedas.

With regards,

Artur Karp
University of Warsaw
Poland




-------------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ---------------------
Dowiesz sie wszystkiego na temat skutecznej antykoncepcji odwiedzajac
http://www.antykoncepcja.com.pl  ZAPRASZAMY!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM  Mon Jun 14 22:37:22 1999
From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 18:37:22 -0400
Subject: Jamshid
Message-ID: <161227050580.23782.10985745465840828943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lars Martin Fosse [mailto:lmfosse at ONLINE.NO]
> Sent: Monday, June 14, 1999 6:15 PM
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: Jamshid
>
>
> >
> > -tra means "to release" as in the word "mantra" being something
> > that "sets free the mind (mana)."  Also this is found in the word
> > ksatriya.  Does the word "astra" (weapon) coming from "throw,
> > release" refer to the releasing of a mantra?
> >
>
> Nope. -tra is a fairly normal Indo-European suffix also found
> in Greek and Latin
> (-tro-). It is the zero stage of the suffix -ter/-tor + the
> thematic vowel if I
> remember correctly.

Could you give some examples of such  Latin/Greek please?

Regards,
Chandra




From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM  Wed Jun 16 22:13:17 1999
From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 18:13:17 -0400
Subject: origin of mAl
Message-ID: <161227050743.23782.6683980651175056993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mani Varadarajan [mailto:mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU]
> Subject: origin of mAl
>
>
> Dear Indologists,
>
> Is there any account of the birth of mAl/mAyOn
> in Tamil literature? I am looking for something
> similar to murukan's birth from koRRavai, later
> fused with Durga/Parvati.
>
If by "pArvati" you meant "the lady of the hills",
and by "koRRavai" "the goddess of the desert/arid terrain",
then the birth of murukan2's birth from pArvati is what is very well
attested by early cangkam texts.
tirumurukARRuppaTai:
"malai makaL makan2E"
meaning "Oh the son of the the lady of the hills".
tirumurukARRuppaTai may be as early as 2nd century BC
(nakkIRar's contemporary pANDiyan2 neTujcelziyan2 era
epigraphy is cited by I.Mahadevan in an interview).


Chandra




From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM  Wed Jun 16 22:19:23 1999
From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 18:19:23 -0400
Subject: origin of mAl
Message-ID: <161227050745.23782.4412224167604105034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chandrasekaran, Periannan
>> tirumurukARRuppaTai may be as early as 2nd century BC
> (nakkIRar's contemporary pANDiyan2 neTujcelziyan2 era
> epigraphy is cited by I.Mahadevan in an interview).
>
>
Apologies for the incompleteness of the above statement. It
should be.
IM cites a 2nd century BC epigraphy of *the* neTuJceziyan2.
And the only such pANDiyan2 neTuJceziyan2 is the hero of
 "maturaik kAJci" addressed to the pANDiyan2 who is also known as
"talaiyAlaGkAn2attuc ceru ven2Ra pANDiyan2 neTuJceziyan2".

Chandra