From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jul  1 00:26:16 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 99 17:26:16 -0700
Subject: studies of sandhyopAsana
Message-ID: <161227051099.23782.3442674668030548133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can someone point me to a study of the brahminical
sandhyopAsana ritual, particularly one which takes
into account how it varies between members of the
different Vedas and dharma-sUtras?

Mani




From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM  Thu Jul  1 05:37:40 1999
From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 99 06:37:40 +0100
Subject: Rta, satya, dharma
Message-ID: <161227051104.23782.856867033370996828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

June 30, 99

(1)  zrutir vibhinnA smRtayash ca bhinnA
>        naiko munir yasya vacaH pramANam /
>        dharmasya tattvaM nihitaM guhAyAM
>        mahAjano yena gataH sa panthAH // (Mahabharata)
I am quoting from memory, as I do not have reference books at
hand. I am going home in August; I will then search for its source.
Translation:
The (view of) the Veda is different; different are also (the views of)
the law codes. There is no single sage/seer whose verdict is
acceptable (to all). The essence of sacred duty is (thus) concealed
in a cave (darkness)/is a riddle. The (right) way (of conduct) is that
which is followed by the great men.
Best wishes.
KSA




From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM  Thu Jul  1 05:37:40 1999
From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 99 06:37:40 +0100
Subject: Rta, satya, dharma
Message-ID: <161227051102.23782.7700883836976144156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

From:                   Self <m02bke02>
To:                     Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Subject:                Rta, satya, dharma
Date sent:              Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:28:25 +0100

> June 30, 99

> (1)  zrutir vibhinnA smRtayash ca bhinnA
> >        naiko munir yasya vacaH pramANam /
> >        dharmasya tattvaM nihitaM guhAyAM
> >        mahAjano yena gataH sa panthAH // (Mahabharata)
 I am quoting from memory, as I do not have reference books at
 hand. I am going home in August; I will then search
 for its source.

 Translation:
 The (view of) the (divine) Veda is different/divergent;
 different/divergent again are (the views of) the (man-made)
 law codes. There is no single sage/seer whose word/verdict
 is authoritative/acceptable (to all). The essence/principle of
 sacred duty is (thus) concealed in a cave (darkness)/
 is inaccessible. The (right) way (of conduct) (which is left
 for us) is that which is followed by the great men.

 Best wishes.
 KSA




From arul_kumaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jul  1 11:38:44 1999
From: arul_kumaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (arul kumaresan)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 99 06:38:44 -0500
Subject: muraja drum
Message-ID: <161227051112.23782.7097294935945023229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>If it is granted that the Natyasastra is the oldest text of musicological
>terms, that older that Sangam literature and Silapaddikaram ( I have
>demostrated that Natyasastra preceded in
>its earliest versions the the Valmikiya Ramayana , pl see
>my book ,  Dramatic Concepts Greek and Indian, DELHI, D.K.
>Printworld, 1994, MURAJA is the most important drum instrument of the
>ancient times. Chapters 28, 33, 34 and 36 all mention its playig in detail.

  Thanks, Prof. Gupt. I read that the Natya Sastra in its available
form is around 4-5th centuries A.D. "muraja", *the most
important drum instrument of the ancient times*, and
classical Tamil "muracam/muracu/muraicu" - do people like
Burrow, Kuiper or Mayrhoffer say anything on muraja?

> > Seeking Sanskritists' help on the drum/big drum `muraja'.
> > Is it from Indo-Iranian heritage? Or,
> > Is Skt. muraja from Dravidian muracam? Classical Tamil
> > texts have royal drum, muracam/muracu/muraicu.
> > Usually, these muracam-s were kept on a decorated cot
> > in the palace. Sangam texts portray muracam-s being
> > carried by elephants and royal commands proclaimed.
> > Any comments on Skt. muraja and Ta. muracam?


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul  1 15:52:34 1999
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 99 08:52:34 -0700
Subject: studies of sandhyopAsana
Message-ID: <161227051114.23782.7983657056881329970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following book, gives a description of sandhyavandanam as followed
by rigvedis, madhyandina shukla yajurvedis and samavedis. However for
e.g, the rigveda sandhyavandanam doesnt match what I follow.




ITEM 17 of 41.
 CALL NUMBER:
                 BL1110 .S3 vol. 20 (ALTERNATE CLASS BL1215.C8)
        AUTHOR:
                 Vasu, Srisa Chandra, 1861-1918?
          TITLE:
                 The daily practice of the Hindus, containing the
morning and midday duties / by Srisa Chandra Vidyarnava.
        EDITION:
                 3d ed., rev. and enl.
     PUBLISHED:
                 Allahabad : Panini Office, 1918 [i.e. 1917]

DESCRIPTION:
                 viii, 198 p. ; 25 cm.
       SUBJECT:
                 Hinduism--Rituals.
         SERIES:
                 The Sacred books of the Hindus ; v. 20
           NOTE:
                 On cover: July to September, 1917, no. 97-99. English
and Sanskrit, with one quotation in Persian; foreword and explanatory
matter in
                 English.
 LCCN NUMBER:
                 75-984998 SA r86



--- Mani Varadarajan <mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:
> Can someone point me to a study of the brahminical
> sandhyopAsana ritual, particularly one which takes
> into account how it varies between members of the
> different Vedas and dharma-sUtras?
>
> Mani
>

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Thu Jul  1 08:31:19 1999
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 99 09:31:19 +0100
Subject: Rta, satya, dharma
In-Reply-To: <0b6820738050179DEEPTHOUGHT@cwcom.net>
Message-ID: <161227051107.23782.3897456922220941207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>> (1)  zrutir vibhinnA smRtayash ca bhinnA
>> >        naiko munir yasya vacaH pramANam /
>> >        dharmasya tattvaM nihitaM guhAyAM
>> >        mahAjano yena gataH sa panthAH // (Mahabharata)
> I am quoting from memory, as I do not have reference books at
> hand. I am going home in August; I will then search
> for its source.
>
> Translation:
> The (view of) the (divine) Veda is different/divergent;
> different/divergent again are (the views of) the (man-made)
> law codes. There is no single sage/seer whose word/verdict
> is authoritative/acceptable (to all). The essence/principle of
> sacred duty is (thus) concealed in a cave (darkness)/
> is inaccessible. The (right) way (of conduct) (which is left
> for us) is that which is followed by the great men.
>
> Best wishes.
> KSA

You find the verse in a slightly different form in the Bombay editions of
the Mahabharata (with Nilakantha's commentary), 3.113.117 (= Poona Ed. 3,
App. 32, line 65-68). The first line reads:

tarko 'pratiSThaH zrutayo vibhinnA

The rest is as quoted above. According to the Critical Edition, the verse
is found in no other ms. but in Dn (3 late Devanagari mss. containing
Nilakantha's commentary).

Best regards,
G.v.Simson




From cssetzer at MUM.EDU  Thu Jul  1 17:41:00 1999
From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 99 12:41:00 -0500
Subject: studies of sandhyopAsana
Message-ID: <161227051116.23782.16893586158826620418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mani,

Here are but a few of many references. There is a multimedia documentary in
progress of the taittiriiya one, with audio, video, script, etc.  It  may be
complete by the end of the summer.

Sandhya is not only for Brahmans, but "should" be done by anyone who has had
upanayana which is prescribed for "all three" castes. In practice, I know
many Brahmans who have not had upanayana, and some non-Brahmans who have.
The third reference below prescribes a simple sandhya as essential for
"everyone" of all religions and castes.

Taittiriiya-mantrakosha.h dvitiiyo bhaaga.h, list of mantras for various
rituals, including sandhya. This is in current use today by Srii
vaishnavaites of the Pancaratra Agama (at least the tangalai). They do
sandhya three times per day, and the mantras in this book are mixed
together,
but mostly there. All Devanagari.

Kane, History of Dharma Sastra, there is an excellent list of many Vedic
references in volume 2, listed in index. English and Devanagari references.

Daily Practices of the Hindus, Srisa Chandra Vasu. This lists quite lot of
stuff, much of it
more complex than most people seem to actually follow. There many different
varieties of sandhya in here, including one for "everyone." English and
Devanagari.

Daily Prayer of the Hindu, sandhya Vandanam, C. N. V., Sri Ram Publishers.
English and Devanagari, with translation.

sincerely,

Claude Setzer  cssetzer at mum.edu


----- Original Message -----
From: Mani Varadarajan <mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 7:26 PM
Subject: studies of sandhyopAsana


> Can someone point me to a study of the brahminical
> sandhyopAsana ritual, particularly one which takes
> into account how it varies between members of the
> different Vedas and dharma-sUtras?
>
> Mani
>




From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM  Thu Jul  1 19:52:06 1999
From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 99 12:52:06 -0700
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227051124.23782.10459326070588593487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bharat Gupt wrote:

> The vedic niyoga was much simpler, rational and mutually respectful than its
> modern technological version of fertility clinics. It went beyond patriarchal ego
> and feimine whims. The modern version is a hoax, a religious perversion, a tremendous
> waste of medical resources and anti-poor. It is open to commercial abuse and
> exploitation of the therd-world people by first world technology. The modern
> rationalists, who speially in India, only rejoice in reviling the ancient Indian
> civilisation, have no guts to advocate a return to niyoga or modernise it even for the
> sake of women freedom.  Nor do those claiming to advocate a scientific and liberal
> outlook have the humility t learn from ancient civilisations which found abiding answers
> to problems that we face even now.

In your rather luddite rant above,  you _seem_ to be only considering the possibility that
the male is incapable of producing offspring.   I don't know your awareness of modern
fertility methods,  but suffice it to say that it has helped a lot of couples I know in the
US and in India  suffering from "unexplained infertility" i.e. where both the male and
female check out fine...  and many other women who are temporarily unable to bear children
because of  endometriosis,  ovulation problems,  etc.  In many cases,  the procedures
involved were straightforward medical ones deserving none of the hoax or religious
perversion characterizations stated above.

I know you are comparing ancient niyoga to modern fertility,  but if you wanted to be
oh-so-humanistic,  why not just suggest straight adoption ?

-Srini.





> Bharat Gupt
> Assoc. Prof. Delhi Univ




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Thu Jul  1 11:23:42 1999
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 99 13:23:42 +0200
Subject: Rta, satya, dharma
Message-ID: <161227051110.23782.4444284777312511192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>> (1)  zrutir vibhinnA smRtayash ca bhinnA
>> >        naiko munir yasya vacaH pramANam /
>> >        dharmasya tattvaM nihitaM guhAyAM
>> >        mahAjano yena gataH sa panthAH // (Mahabharata)
>
>You find the verse in a slightly different form in the Bombay editions of
>the Mahabharata (with Nilakantha's commentary), 3.113.117 (= Poona Ed. 3,
>App. 32, line 65-68). The first line reads:
>
>tarko 'pratiSThaH zrutayo vibhinnA

I have heard this verse quoted several times with the first line as given by
Prof. von Simson, and the second line as follows:
        nAsAv RSir yasya mataM na bhinnam
-- a caustic remark which holds true even today.

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From mkv1 at YORK.AC.UK  Thu Jul  1 13:59:47 1999
From: mkv1 at YORK.AC.UK (Mahendra Verma)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 99 18:59:47 +0500
Subject: VIth Vishva Hindi Sammelan, U.K. 14-18 September,1999
In-Reply-To: <199906290107.VAA29047@mail2.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <161227051119.23782.3566682485277857827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

*********************************************************************
VIth Vishva Hindi Sammelan, U.K. 
14-18 September,1999
*********************************************************************
Hindi Samiti, U.K., Gitanjali Bahubhashiya Sahityik Samuday, Ahinsam
Bhartiya,and Bhartiya Bhasha Sangam are pleased to announce that they will
host the SIXTH VISHVA HINDI SAMMELAN in the UK from 14-18 September 1999. The
theme of the conference will be 

**************************************************************** 

HINDI EVAM BHAAVEE PEERHEE 
(HINDI AND THE FUTURE GENERATIONS)

****************************************************************

Proposals for 30 (including 10 minutes for discussion) minute papers are
invited on any aspect of Research in Hindi Literature, Hindi Language &
Linguistics, Hindi Teaching, and Hindi at Work covering the following areas:

1.Hindi mein Dalit Saahitya     	2.Hindi mein SansmaraN / Aatmkathaa 

3.Hindi Aalochnaa			4.Hindi Lok Giit

5.Vyangya Saahitya 			6.Hindi Patra-Patrikaaen

7.Hindi Kavitaa 			8.Hindi evam anya Bhaashaaen

9.Kathaa Saahitya 			10.Gadyagiit kii Paramparaa

11.Hindi VyaakarN : Badalte Roop 	12.Hindi aur aagaamii PiiRhii 

13.Hindi Nibandh			 14.Hindi kii takniiki Pragati

15.Hindi Bhakti Saahitya 		16.Hindi mein Yaatraa Vritaant Saahitya

17.Hindi Bhaashaa Vigyaan 		18. Hindi Upanyaas: unniisviin-biisviin sadii

19.Hindi Aapravasi/ Upniveshii Sandarbh	20.Hindi ShikshaN / PrashikshaN

21.Svaicchik Vidyaalayon kaa Yogdaan  	22.Hindi aur NavjaagraN

23. Hindi kaa Shabd BhaNDaar 

The deadline for submission of ABSTRACTS is 15 July 1999, and for submission
of paper is 31 August 1999.The Organising Committee's decision regarding the
selection of abstracts will be communicated to you by the 14th Aug.1999.
Abstracts (200 words) together with the Registration Form should be sent by
Fax/ E-mail or post to Mahendra Verma Dept. of Language & Linguistic
ScienceUniversity of York YORK, YO1 5DD, UK .Fax: 01904 432673 / E-mail:
mkv1 at york.ac.uk

Your proposal should consist of the following : (1) the title of the abstract
(2) the topic heading of the proposal; (3) author's name, postal address,
telephone & fax numbers, and e-mail address where available, and your status -
research student, academic staff, researcher. The Registration fee is ?100
(One hundred Pounds, Payable to VI WORLD HINDI CONFERENCE), and for the local
residents ?25 (Twenty Five Pounds Payable to VI WORLD HINDI CONFERENCE).
Please send your payment to Mahendra Verma at the address given above by the
1st August 1999. 






******************************************************************************
*



VIth WORLD HINDI CONFERENCE 1999, U.K.
Venue: School Of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS)., London, UK. 
14-18 SEPTEMBER,1999

REGISTRATION FORM

TITLE: (Prof/Dr/Mr/Mrs/Ms or other):..........................

SURNAME :.......................... INITIALS :
............................................................

ORGANISATION
:.............................................................................
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registration forms. Payment should be made by cheque or bankers draft (in ?
sterling ) made payable to "V1th WORLD HINDI CONFERENCE".

Please send your Registration form, including the payment to:

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YORK, YO1 5DD, UK .
Fax: 01904 432673 / E-mail: mkv1 at york.ac.uk




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jul  1 22:35:49 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 99 22:35:49 +0000
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227051121.23782.1577287741744400539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Artur Karp wrote:
>
> Dear Sceptic,
>
> >That dialog refers to incest between siblings and not Niyog >
>
> Of course. But I found it quite peculiar to see in my mail an allusion to
> what I thought was an ancient and already forgotten dispute. When Swami
> Dayanand proclaimed his project of social reform, the concept of niyoga
> became the most obvious target of attacks. On the other hand, while
> defending his interpretation of the RV X:10.10, the followers of the Swami
> had a good opportunity to attack the Western way of interpreting the Vedas.
>
> With regards,
>
> Artur Karp
> University of Warsaw
> Poland
>
> -------------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ---------------------
> Dowiesz sie wszystkiego na temat skutecznej antykoncepcji odwiedzajac
> http://www.antykoncepcja.com.pl  ZAPRASZAMY!!
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Prof Karp,
Could we not take as evidence of niyoga a more lucid reference
in the mantra 10/40/2,

(the second line) h
Ko vaam  shayutraa vidhaveva devaram maryana yoshaa krinute sadhastha aa.

(please forgive incomplete spellings due to email constaints).

Bharat Gupt
Assoc  Professor Delhi Univ.

The "putryeshti yajna" held after ashvamedha held by Dasharatha, in my opinion (and we
are all entitled to our interpretations provided they are based on evidence of certain
existing practices) is a euphemism for niyoga. The miraculous description of the
"paayasam"  bearing person emerging from the yajna fire is heighten the eupphemistic
mode. If just a putryeshti were to be held, it could have been done by Vasishtha
or others, but Dasharatha had to  go and seek and  bring  Rishyashranga, the son in law
of a friend, this only conforms to the rules of selecting a relative or a surrogate for
niyoga.

With regards,
Bharat Gupt




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jul  1 23:23:57 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 99 23:23:57 +0000
Subject: muraja drum
Message-ID: <161227051122.23782.10494004806723178299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

arul kumaresan wrote:
>
> >If it is granted that the Natyasastra is the oldest text of musicological
> >terms, that older that Sangam literature and Silapaddikaram ( I have
> >demostrated that Natyasastra preceded in
> >its earliest versions the the Valmikiya Ramayana , pl see
> >my book ,  Dramatic Concepts Greek and Indian, DELHI, D.K.
> >Printworld, 1994, MURAJA is the most important drum instrument of the
> >ancient times. Chapters 28, 33, 34 and 36 all mention its playig in detail.
>
>   Thanks, Prof. Gupt. I read that the Natya Sastra in its available
> form is around 4-5th centuries A.D. "muraja", *the most
> important drum instrument of the ancient times*, and
> classical Tamil "muracam/muracu/muraicu" - do people like
> Burrow, Kuiper or Mayrhoffer say anything on muraja?
>
> > > Seeking Sanskritists' help on the drum/big drum `muraja'.
> > > Is it from Indo-Iranian heritage? Or,
> > > Is Skt. muraja from Dravidian muracam? Classical Tamil
> > > texts have royal drum, muracam/muracu/muraicu.
> > > Usually, these muracam-s were kept on a decorated cot
> > > in the palace. Sangam texts portray muracam-s being
> > > carried by elephants and royal commands proclaimed.
> > > Any comments on Skt. muraja and Ta. muracam?
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


I do not know if the scholars you have named have written on the subject.
My work has been mainly, rather entirely, based on the Sanskrit texts of the Natysastra.
and the Valmikiya Ramayana and later musicological texts .

The playing of  drums as I said is detailed in the NS. The NS mentions that that
the same kind of patterns of strokes can be played on mrdanga, panava, muraja, and other
drums.  This holds true till date.  Some changes are made to suit the specific nature of
certain drums.

The date of NS is a big controversy.IT is a text that has grown over centuries
but which lines/ portions are later  additions, is not possible to point out.
The medieval texts describe the size and making of muraja. Muraj may have had a South
Indian  origin  and could have been incorporated in the NS list of drums. There is no
reason to believe that NS was not written viewing the musical practices all over India.
But muraja like nearly all Indian drums is non medieval Iranian. Even a precursor of
modern tabla is found in 9th century sculpture.

Bharat Gupt
Assoc PRof DELHI UNIV.




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Fri Jul  2 04:59:37 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 99 00:59:37 -0400
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227051126.23782.1947647144914115946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bharat Gupt wrote:

> Dear Prof Karp,
> Could we not take as evidence of niyoga a more lucid reference
> in the mantra 10/40/2,

I don't think so. This sukta refers to the status of widows prior to
start of Sati system in what you call as the Vedic parampara. It
indicates that widows were considered properties belonging to her
deceased husband and they had no freedom to choose a person out side his
family. It ignores the cases where the deceased husband did not have an
younger brother neither does it state that the widow had to be
childless.

Polyandry is mentioned prominently in Mahabharat and Ramayan e.g.
Draupadi and Mandodri without having to wait for the demise of a woman's
husband.

> The "putryeshti yajna" held after ashvamedha held by Dasharatha, in my opinion (and we
> are all entitled to our interpretations provided they are based on evidence of certain
> existing practices) is a euphemism for niyoga. The miraculous description of the
> "paayasam"  bearing person emerging from the yajna fire is heighten the eupphemistic

It seems more logical for me to expect the author of Ramayan wanted to
convey some kind of poetic mystery and unearthly nature of Ram's birth
so that he could be considered as a superhero or supernatural
personality like Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

If he just wanted to talk about niyoga then there was no necessity to
conduct a special yagna or some other numbo jumbo since Niyoga was not a
taboo subject at the time as you correctly state.
--
Have a peaceful and joyous day.
Aditya Mishra
Primary e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ # 1131674 Mediaring # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        7th Rule of Bureaucracy: For any given large, complex, expensive
problem, there exists at least one short, simple, cheap, wrong answer.




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jul  2 09:41:34 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 99 09:41:34 +0000
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227051128.23782.16877171816912698287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Srini Pichumani wrote:
>
> Bharat Gupt wrote:
>
> > The vedic niyoga was much simpler, rational and mutually respectful than its
> > modern technological version of fertility clinics. It went beyond patriarchal ego
> > and feminine whims. The modern version is a hoax, a religious perversion,    a tremendous
> > waste of medical resources and anti-poor. It is open to commercial abuse and
> > exploitation of the third-world people by first world technology. The modern
> > rationalists, who speially in India, only rejoice in reviling the ancient Indian
> > civilisation, have no guts to advocate a return to niyoga or modernise it even for the
> > sake of women freedom.  Nor do those claiming to advocate a scientific and liberal
> > outlook have the humility t learn from ancient civilisations which found abiding answers
> > to problems that we face even now.
>
> In your rather luddite rant above,  you _seem_ to be only considering the possibility that
> the male is incapable of producing offspring.   I don't know your awareness of modern
> fertility methods,  but suffice it to say that it has helped a lot of couples I know in the
> US and in India  suffering from "unexplained infertility" i.e. where both the male and
> female check out fine...  and many other women who are temporarily unable to bear children
> because of  endometriosis,  ovulation problems,  etc.  In many cases,  the procedures
> involved were straightforward medical ones deserving none of the hoax or religious
> perversion characterizations stated above.
>
> I know you are comparing ancient niyoga to modern fertility,  but if you wanted to be
> oh-so-humanistic,  why not just suggest straight adoption ?
>
> -Srini.
>response from
> > Bharat Gupt
> > Assoc. Prof. Delhi UnivDear Srini,

Continuing with my "luddite ranting", let me point out that nowhere have I suggested
not curing physical or even psychological inabilities in men and women with the help of
modern medicine. I am talking about the whole ethics of sperm banks and the secrecy cult
that modern medicine has made out to be an industry. Contemporary religious beliefs,
Christian, Hindu or Islamic can all benefit by reform and openness for which they have a
precedent in ancient practices. Any social reform needs precedents and customary
evidence, niyoga only provides it authentically, as a widespread ancient practice.
Hindu conservatism has suppressed this fact and held that it was discarded
as it was abused in "kaliyauga".

Adoption is legitimate in itself, and the now much hated Manusmriti provided for many
kinds of adoption, but adoption cannot not be a solution for those who wish to give
birth and raise a child in the family.
The real opposition to niyoga is from the modern  male ego. Ancient niyoga was used
for patriarchal/ family/ vamsha/ perpetuation. Now besides family perpetuation it can
be social sanction for individual choices and motherhood also.
Thank you for the discussion, with regards,
Bharat Gupt
Associate PRof Delhi Univ.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jul  2 18:24:30 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 99 11:24:30 -0700
Subject: Chandogya Upanisad, again
Message-ID: <161227051132.23782.18418205767701509716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>This passage seems interesting as a follow up on my previous
>inquiry about the Chandogya Upanisad.  Here Datta and Singh
>translate "rasi" as arithmetic rather than as mathematics as

I have seen other translations which use the term arithmetic, rather than
mathematics.

>translates it as "science of ritual").  It does not seem to make
>sense that Narada would beg from Sanatkumara Brahma-vidya only
>to subsequently list this as a science he already learnt.  Can
>anyone shed some light on this?

This has to do with the complexity of the term brahma. To most of us,
brahman refers to the ultimate reality or supreme principle. Within the
Vedic/upanishadic corpus, the variety of meanings of the term brahman can be
deduced from the context.

Specifically in the cchAndogya text, brahma-vidyaa in Narada's list is
juxtaposed with kshatra-vidyaa. The compound brahma-kshatra is a term that
occurs frequently. If I remember right, Narada asks for some knowledge that
would remove his sorrow. Sanatkumara proceeds to teach him in stages,
ultimately leading to the highest brahman. In the upanishadic/Vedantic
traditions, it is axiomatic that he who knows the highest reality knows no
sorrow and no fear. Obviously, the brahma-vidyaa listed by Narada as
something that he already knows is not the knowledge of the highest brahman.

Regards,
Vidyasankar


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From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jul  2 21:45:58 1999
From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 99 14:45:58 -0700
Subject: studies of sandhyopAsana
Message-ID: <161227051136.23782.8005472263218681708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Claude Setzer writes:
>Sandhya is not only for Brahmans, but "should" be done by anyone who has
>had upanayana which is prescribed for "all three" castes. In practice, I
>know many Brahmans who have not had upanayana, and some non-Brahmans who
>have.

Are there any studies about non-brahmin castes having upanayana
ceremony. In the South, what would be the percentage of
population doing upanayana and sandhyopAsana rituals.
Any non-brahmin Tamil castes having these rituals?

Thanks.



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jul  2 23:39:51 1999
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 99 16:39:51 -0700
Subject: studies of sandhyopAsana
Message-ID: <161227051138.23782.2115566842603235466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While this is not a direct answer to your question. Acharis
(Goldsmiths, Carpenters ) do wear the sacred thread. What veda/sutra is
followed by them I dont know. Also a few amongst the Vaisya community
also undergo the Upanayana. The arasu(s) in Karnataka may have a
tradition of upanayana.

In Maharashtra, some of the CKPs (chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus)
undergo upanayana.
Nikhil
--- Prasad Velusamy <prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Claude Setzer writes:
> >Sandhya is not only for Brahmans, but "should" be
> done by anyone who has
> >had upanayana which is prescribed for "all three"
> castes. In practice, I
> >know many Brahmans who have not had upanayana, and
> some non-Brahmans who
> >have.
>
> Are there any studies about non-brahmin castes
> having upanayana
> ceremony. In the South, what would be the percentage
> of
> population doing upanayana and sandhyopAsana
> rituals.
> Any non-brahmin Tamil castes having these rituals?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit
> http://www.msn.com
>

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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM  Sat Jul  3 00:11:05 1999
From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 99 17:11:05 -0700
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227051140.23782.14782876314597191079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bharat Gupt wrote:

> Continuing with my "luddite ranting", let me point out that nowhere have I suggested
> not curing physical or even psychological inabilities in men and women with the help of
> modern medicine.

That precisely,  is _a_ major preoccupation of fertility clinics worldwide.

> Contemporary religious beliefs,
> Christian, Hindu or Islamic can all benefit by reform and openness for which they have a
> precedent in ancient practices. Any social reform needs precedents and customary
> evidence, niyoga only provides it authentically, as a widespread ancient practice.
> Hindu conservatism has suppressed this fact and held that it was discarded
> as it was abused in "kaliyauga".

How do you argue that it was widespread ?   And why talk of Hindu conservatism,  kaliyuga etc ?
Even in ancient times,  is there mention of niyoga or similar practice in cultures such as that
of the Sangam era Tamils...  in all probability not,  considering the emphasis on kaRpu
(chastity) for married women... which in itself is patriarchical,  but that is beside the point
here.

> The real opposition to niyoga is from the modern  male ego. Ancient niyoga was used
> for patriarchal/ family/ vamsha/ perpetuation. Now besides family perpetuation it can
> be social sanction for individual choices and motherhood also.

Here,  the traditional "marumakkathayam" practices of the Nair community of Kerala,  which were
indeed very widespread amongst that community and a few others till very recent times,  and
noticed by various visitors to Kerala since medieval times,  offers a enlightened,
non-patriarchical alternative,  provided it is rid of the usual caste-related considerations.

-Srini.




From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jul  2 21:19:37 1999
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 99 17:19:37 -0400
Subject: mantra zAstra
Message-ID: <161227051134.23782.17523337172094016042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many of the stotras/mantric texts that are chanted as part of a religeous
practice have a formula at the beginning somewhat similar to:

AAAAA RSiH
BBBBB chandas
CCCCC devatA
DDDDD bIjam
EEEEE zaktiH
FFFFF kIlakam


Where AAAAA is the RSiH, BBBBB the meter, CCCCC the deity etc.  Sometimes
all these elements are present, sometimes others such as "astra, argalA,
kavaca" are present, and sometimes not all are present. I have seen stotras
where the bIja, zakti, and kIlaka refer to bIja mantras not present in the
text, and in other stotras they refer to words or phrases within the stotra
itself.  In the case of the "DevImAhAtmya" as pointed out by Thomas B.
Coburn in "Encountering the Goddess" the kavaca, argalA and kIlaka are
complete angas to the text.

I am looking for any references [both from within the tradition (i.e.
commentaries, puranic passages, texts etc.) or from without (i.e. scholastic
studies, articles etc.)] that discuss the relationship between bIja, zakti,
kIlaka, kavaca etc. and the mantras/text being recited.

Thanks in advance,

Harry



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From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Fri Jul  2 16:46:57 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 99 18:46:57 +0200
Subject: Chandogya Upanisad, again
In-Reply-To: <199906291235.OAA25723@cisun5000.unil.ch>
Message-ID: <161227051130.23782.11071974214800568976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list-members,

I found one passage in Datta and Singh's History of Hindu
Mathematics (Part I, page 3-4):

"There is a story in the Chandogya Upanisad whose value in
support of our view cannot be over-estimated.  It is said that once
upon a time Narada approached the sage Sanatkumara and
begged of him the Brahma-vidya or the supreme knowledge.
Sanatkumara asked Narada to state what sciences and arts he
had already studied so that he (Sanatkumara) might judge what
still remained to be learnt by him.  Thereupon Narada enumerated
the various sciences and arts studied by him.  This list included
astronomy (naksatra-vidya) and arithmetic (rasi-vidya).  Thus the
culture of the science of mathematics or of any other branch of
secular knowledge, was not considered to be a hindrance to
spiritual knowledge.  In fact, Apara-vidya ("secular knowledge") was
then considered to be a helpful adjunct to Para-vidya ("spiritual
knowledge")."

This passage seems interesting as a follow up on my previous
inquiry about the Chandogya Upanisad.  Here Datta and Singh
translate "rasi" as arithmetic rather than as mathematics as
Olivelle do.  This makes sense.  Also, it is strange that Datta and
Singh write that Narada begged from Sanatkumara "Brahma-vidya"
as this is included in the list of sciences Narada presented (Olivelle
translates it as "science of ritual").  It does not seem to make
sense that Narada would beg from Sanatkumara Brahma-vidya only
to subsequently list this as a science he already learnt.  Can
anyone shed some light on this?

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jul  2 19:04:43 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 99 19:04:43 +0000
Subject: The conception of Rama
Message-ID: <161227051142.23782.2740762207018236436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic wrote:
>
> Bharat Gupt wrote:
>
> > Dear Prof Karp,
> > Could we not take as evidence of niyoga a more lucid reference
> > in the mantra 10/40/2,
>
> I don't think so. This sukta refers to the status of widows prior to
> start of Sati system in what you call as the Vedic parampara. It
> indicates that widows were considered properties belonging to her
> deceased husband and they had no freedom to choose a person out side his
> family. It ignores the cases where the deceased husband did not have an
> younger brother neither does it state that the widow had to be
> childless.
>
> Polyandry is mentioned prominently in Mahabharat and Ramayan e.g.
> Draupadi and Mandodri without having to wait for the demise of a woman's
> husband.
>
> > The "putryeshti yajna" held after ashvamedha held by Dasharatha, in my opinion (and we
> > are all entitled to our interpretations provided they are based on evidence of certain
> > existing practices) is a euphemism for niyoga. The miraculous description of the
> > "paayasam"  bearing person emerging from the yajna fire is heighten the eupphemistic
>
> It seems more logical for me to expect the author of Ramayan wanted to
> convey some kind of poetic mystery and unearthly nature of Ram's birth
> so that he could be considered as a superhero or supernatural
> personality like Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
>
> If he just wanted to talk about niyoga then there was no necessity to
> conduct a special yagna or some other numbo jumbo since Niyoga was not a
> taboo subject at the time as you correctly state.
> --
> Have a peaceful and joyous day.
> Aditya Mishra
> Primary e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org
> Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
> ICQ # 1131674 Mediaring # 1-954-746-0442
> Fax #:  209-315-8571
> Random thought of the day:
>         7th Rule of Bureaucracy: For any given large, complex, expensive
> problem, there exists at least one short, simple, cheap, wrong answer.

I see no reason to presume that this is a "status of the widow"  sukta. There is
also no reason to presume that  going to the devar was without a formal ritual
which could have been other than niyoga. That women were considered "property" and
all that is an attitude that only prjects a self-made " superiority " of the modern
notions. Niyoga is not any more superior or freedom-giver than serial monogamy
. That sati came after niyoga / compulsory marraige to devar is also a presumption.
All these practices have coexited, their beginning and end cannot be ascertained
much less any evolutionary development.

I agree that Rama's janma is made miraculous but as a take off from the more mundane
practice of niyoga. IT may have not have been done by adi Valmiki but by later Valmikis.

Have a very good day.
Random Thought : The comforting way of not seeing the writing on the wall is to close
your eyes.
Bharat Gupt




From zydenbos at FLEVOLAND.XS4ALL.NL  Sat Jul  3 04:22:47 1999
From: zydenbos at FLEVOLAND.XS4ALL.NL (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 99 02:22:47 -0200
Subject: studies of sandhyopAsana
Message-ID: <161227051147.23782.9966692582695838063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Replies to msg 02 Jul 99: indology at listserv.liv.ac.uk (Prasad Velusamy)

 pC> Claude Setzer writes:
>Sandhya is not only for Brahmans, but "should" be done by anyone who has
>had upanayana which is prescribed for "all three" castes. In practice, I
>know many Brahmans who have not had upanayana, and some non-Brahmans who
>have.

 pC> Are there any studies about non-brahmin castes having
 pC> upanayana
 pC> ceremony. In the South, what would be the percentage of
 pC> population doing upanayana and sandhyopAsana rituals.
 pC> Any non-brahmin Tamil castes having these rituals?

If I'm allowed to give a non-Tamil example: Jainas in Karnataka. Not all,
but most of the Digambaras have an upanayana with a sacred thread (the
three strands representing the Jaina ratnatraya), and there is also a Jaina
sandhyaavandanaa.

RZ




From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU  Sat Jul  3 13:05:31 1999
From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 99 09:05:31 -0400
Subject: Explanation to Chandogya Upanisad, again
Message-ID: <161227051145.23782.10990480183702415577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Toke Lindegaard Knudsen wrote:

> Dear list-members,
>
> I found one passage in Datta and Singh's History of Hindu
> Mathematics (Part I, page 3-4):
>
> Skip...
> Narada approached the sage Sanatkumara and
> begged of him the Brahma-vidya or the supreme knowledge.
> Skip...
> Narada enumerated
> the various sciences and arts studied by him.  This list included
> astronomy (naksatra-vidya) and arithmetic (rasi-vidya).  Thus the
> culture of the science of mathematics or of any other branch of
> secular knowledge, was not considered to be a hindrance to
> spiritual knowledge.  In fact, Apara-vidya ("secular knowledge") was
> then considered to be a helpful adjunct to Para-vidya ("spiritual
> knowledge")."
>
> This passage seems interesting as a follow up on my previous
> inquiry about the Chandogya Upanisad.  Here Datta and Singh
> translate "rasi" as arithmetic rather than as mathematics as
> Olivelle do.  This makes sense.
> Skip...
> Also, it is strange that Datta and
> Singh write that Narada begged from Sanatkumara "Brahma-vidya"
> as this is included in the list of sciences Narada presented (Olivelle
> translates it as "science of ritual").  It does not seem to make
> sense that Narada would beg from Sanatkumara Brahma-vidya only
> to subsequently list this as a science he already learnt.  Can
> anyone shed some light on this?

      Vidyasankar Sundaresan has already answered partly. Let me quote
from Shankara's commentary:
1. The raashividyaa is simply translated as gaNitam. This, in modern times
is often used as the term for Mathematics in general, but before
systematic development of other branches of mathematics, it was reduced to
Arithmetic - as opposed to geometry!
2. As far as brahmavidyaa is concerned, Shankara says:
brahmaNaH R^ig-yajuH-saamaakhyasya vidyaaM brahmavidyaaM
shixaakalpachchhandashcitayaH |

This roughly means that "brahmas" means the mantras of the three vedas, so
brahmavidyaa is their science, explicitly this is the collection of
shixaa, kalpa, chhanda etc.
Narada goes on to explain that he knows only the meaning of the words, but
does not know aatmaa, or what they describe.  Shankara goes on to
illustrate by an example. You see a big army and  all the royal entourage
and assert "here is the king" even though you don't actually see or know
the king. The detailed discussion is quite interesting and should be read
from the original.


--
With best regards,
Avinash Sathaye sohum at ms.uky.edu Web Page: www.ms.uky.edu/~sohum




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Jul  3 11:52:58 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 99 11:52:58 +0000
Subject: studies of sandhyopAsana
Message-ID: <161227051149.23782.11927062352399830298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nikhil Rao wrote:
>
> While this is not a direct answer to your question. Acharis
> (Goldsmiths, Carpenters ) do wear the sacred thread. What veda/sutra is
> followed by them I dont know. Also a few amongst the Vaisya community
> also undergo the Upanayana. The arasu(s) in Karnataka may have a
> tradition of upanayana.
>
> In Maharashtra, some of the CKPs (chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus)
> undergo upanayana.
> Nikhil
> --- Prasad Velusamy <prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > Claude Setzer writes:
> > >Sandhya is not only for Brahmans, but "should" be
> > done by anyone who has
> > >had upanayana which is prescribed for "all three"
> > castes. In practice, I
> > >know many Brahmans who have not had upanayana, and
> > some non-Brahmans who
> > >have.
> >
> > Are there any studies about non-brahmin castes
> > having upanayana
> > ceremony. In the South, what would be the percentage
> > of
> > population doing upanayana and sandhyopAsana
> > rituals.
> > Any non-brahmin Tamil castes having these rituals?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit
> > http://www.msn.com
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


TO LIST MEMBERS:

The wearing of the sacred thread today cannot be taken as a mark of
original high caste status. In fact, as in the past, acquiring upanayana
and the thread is often a mark of upward mobility that a particular jati
may have achieved. I have seen many "barahee" (furniture makers) in the
neighbourhood who have taken up in the last generation the caste name
Sharma and also the sacred thread . They call themselves pure brahmins
and but the "pure" brahmins call these neobrahmins as bahrahee brahmins.
To sum up, the thread and names in times of high displacement and
migration of populations within India now are no longer a  sure mark of
caste features.  Micro studies on caste are now largely deceptive as
questionnaires in this matter are never answered truthfully.

Bharat Gupt
Assoc Prof Delhi Univ.




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sat Jul  3 10:22:53 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 99 12:22:53 +0200
Subject: Dravidians and Sergent
Message-ID: <161227051144.23782.5671478768865770611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Some time ago, Michael Witzel wrote:

>>Sergent's theory of a Dravidian move from the E. Sudan (whence the alleged
African relationships with the Wolof etc., now in Senegal!)  to Central
Asia (whence the similarity with Finno-Ugric etc.)   to India is rather
contorted, and as H.H. Hock has already pointed out, not proved as far as
W. African languages are concerned. (Since L. Senghor, a cottage industry
of Indologists and others in Dakar).

When I quoted Sergent's views on the Dravidian movement into India with its assumed concomitant linguistic development, I did not criticize Sergent since I am neither a Dravidologist nor a specialist in Uralian languages.  However, to be on the safe side, I would like to make clear that I am sceptical of his theories for general reasons. I think linguistic reconstructions like the ones involving African languages are extremely speculative, but then I don't think highly of Nostraticism either. When we start comparing reconstructions of proto-languages with other reconstructions of proto-languages, the error potentiality becomes enormous, and the effort would seem to be a waste of time. Admittedly, some languages contain extremely conservative elements - Lithuanian "sunus" = son presumably sounds today exactly the way it sounded 6,500 years ago. Yet such cases are the exception rather than the rule, and we cannot expect a similar stability over such a long period of time in general. And comparing languages that presumably split up 8-10,000 years ago simply makes no sense, particularly when the greater part of that period is undocumented. If there are similarities, they are most likely due to chance. Those of you who take an interest in spurious similarities should read the following paper:

Dyen, Isidore. 1971. Background 'Noise' or 'Evidence' in Comparative Linguistics: The Case of the Austronesian-Indo-European Hypothesis. In Indo-European and Indo-Europeans. Papers Presented at the Third Indo-European Conference at the University of Pennsylvania, edited by H. M. H. George Cardona, Alfred Senn. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press.

As for Sergent, the most fascinating aspect of his work is his radical attempt to create a synthesis of *all* the available knowledge. Inevitably, when ambitions are so high, something must go wrong occasionally. 

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU  Sun Jul  4 20:01:19 1999
From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke)
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 99 15:01:19 -0500
Subject: Hinduism Web Sites
Message-ID: <161227051151.23782.3912722479784428932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,

This topic may have run the circuit already, but I can't find it in the
Indology archives so here goes.  I'm reviewing web sites about Hinduism for
the Britannica Internet Guide online (http://www.britannica.com/).  If you
have time, please let me know of sites you think are noteworthy and ought
to be reviewed or sites you use for educational purposes.   Also, if you
know of link-sites (university sites, private sites, student group sites,
etc) that are particularly good, that would be helpful.

Thanks in advance.

Christian Novetzke
Religion Department
Columbia University

(My apologies to those who get this on RISA too.)




From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jul  5 13:29:13 1999
From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 06:29:13 -0700
Subject: Blood circulation
Message-ID: <161227051159.23782.1042269926007000584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Dominik wrote:
 >There no evidence that Harvey knew anything whatsoever about
 >ayurveda, although it is not impossible that he may have been
 >acquainted with some Arabic medical works.  I'm afraid I simply
 >don't know.  It seems very unlikely.  Further, the descriptions by
 >Harvey of his own experimental work establish beyond reasonable
 >doubt that he developed his ideas independently.

Because Arabic translations exist from Ayurveda and Chinese medical
texts, it is possible Harvey got the idea from them.
For example, R. Temple, The genius of China, 1986, p.123

    "Most people believe that the circulation of the blood in the
    body was discovered by William Harvey, and that it was he who
    first brought the idea to the attention of the world when he
    published his discovery in 1628. Harvey was, however, not even the
    first European to recognize the concept, and the Chinese had
    made the discovery two thousand years before."
    [...]
    p.124 "the renowned scholar Isaac Vossius wrote that the Chinese
    had known of the circulation of the blood for four thousand years.
    As Needham says: `He was of course taking the legendary date
    of the Yellow Emperor. But some two thousand years would have
    been right enough.' We thus see that three hundred years ago,
    it was widely realized in Europe that the Chinese had originated
    the idea of the circulation of the blood. But since that
    time, Europeans have reverted to a state of ignorance on the
    subject and forgotten this entirely."




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From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE  Mon Jul  5 07:09:29 1999
From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 09:09:29 +0200
Subject: Coin
Message-ID: <161227051153.23782.9837861077380246138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List Members,

Is anyone of you aware of the existence in Ancient or Mediaeval India of any
(golden) coin known as 'pot', 'pitcher', 'jar' (kumbha, kuNDA, ghaTa,
kalaza, etc.), or with an image of a pot etc. struck on it ?

Thank you,

Erik Seldeslachts
Gent, Belgium




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Jul  5 08:49:57 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 09:49:57 +0100
Subject: Q: Kannada grammar
In-Reply-To: <000301bec6be$1217fb40$0a51b59d@dial.elte.hu>
Message-ID: <161227051157.23782.3093800599314395345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It would be practical to have some Kannada, of course, but it would be
equally, if not more appropriate to brush up your spoken Sanskrit.  I
visited Melkote briefly a couple of years ago, and there are many brahmins
and scholars there, both in the Academy and based at the temple (where
there is another manuscript collection), and Sanskrit is a very practical
and appropriate means of communication in that milieu.

Best,
Dominik




From crlee at MAILBOX.SYR.EDU  Mon Jul  5 13:51:00 1999
From: crlee at MAILBOX.SYR.EDU (christopher lee)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 09:51:00 -0400
Subject: Hinduism Web Sites
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990704150119.007df6b0@pop.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <161227051161.23782.4845859007021947787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hey Christian

Just a suggestion from here in Syracuse: check the Amar Chitra Katha pages -
they are they comic books, in case you don't remember, through which many
foreign born (and now even native born) Indians learn of their heritage.  I
don't remember offhand what the address is, but a simple search should do
it.

Hope everything is going well for you in the city.  I'll be down in August;
hope to see you then.

chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Christian
Lee Novetzke
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 1999 4:01 PM
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
Subject: Hinduism Web Sites

Hello,

This topic may have run the circuit already, but I can't find it in the
Indology archives so here goes.  I'm reviewing web sites about Hinduism for
the Britannica Internet Guide online (http://www.britannica.com/).  If you
have time, please let me know of sites you think are noteworthy and ought
to be reviewed or sites you use for educational purposes.   Also, if you
know of link-sites (university sites, private sites, student group sites,
etc) that are particularly good, that would be helpful.

Thanks in advance.

Christian Novetzke
Religion Department
Columbia University

(My apologies to those who get this on RISA too.)




From crlee at MAILBOX.SYR.EDU  Mon Jul  5 14:00:00 1999
From: crlee at MAILBOX.SYR.EDU (christopher lee)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 10:00:00 -0400
Subject: Hinduism Web Sites
In-Reply-To: <LNBBIMEECJELGPNNCLCKMEFHCMAA.crlee@mailbox.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <161227051163.23782.13424020790812553909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Whoops!  Apologies to the list for posting a personal message to everyone.

christopher lee




From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU  Mon Jul  5 08:07:55 1999
From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 10:07:55 +0200
Subject: Q: Kannada grammar
Message-ID: <161227051155.23782.4101067322192448755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friends,

I am going to spend three months in Melkote (near Mysore), and I thought it
would be nice to have some preliminary knowledge of the local dialect. So
could someone, please, recommend a basic grammar or text-book of Kannada? If
it is in print, so much the better. (We have nothing of the kind in Hungarian
libraries).

Thank you
Ferenc




From suji at HOME.COM  Mon Jul  5 16:09:28 1999
From: suji at HOME.COM (Stephens)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 12:09:28 -0400
Subject: Blood circulation
Message-ID: <161227051167.23782.2445258657448851938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> And Sanskrit sources do not contain any description of blood circulation
> either, so it wouldn't make any difference if Harvey had access to Arabic
> translations of them or not.


In this context, what is Shushruta's take on the human anatomy? Since he
seems to have carried out anatomical studies on dead bodies, did he write
anything about blood circulation.

Sujatha




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jul  5 20:04:44 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 13:04:44 -0700
Subject: studies of sandhyopAsana
In-Reply-To: <cba_9907031900@flevoland.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <161227051181.23782.11338288878240355230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
> If I'm allowed to give a non-Tamil example: Jainas in Karnataka. Not all,
> but most of the Digambaras have an upanayana with a sacred thread (the
> three strands representing the Jaina ratnatraya), and there is also a Jaina
> sandhyaavandanaa.
>

Very interesting. Do you know if there were conversions back
and forth between brahmins and Jainas? If the Jainas wore
the sacred thread, performed some sandhyAvandana, and learnt
Sanskrit, it is then plausible that they were accepted as
brahmins (and vice versa) upon conversion. This lends credence
to the belief voiced by Prof. Hebbar that some Sri Vaishnavas
of Karnataka are originally Jains converted by Ramanuja.

Mani




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jul  5 20:06:43 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 13:06:43 -0700
Subject: Q: Kannada grammar
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9907050947200.335-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227051183.23782.5504043630481914029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> It would be practical to have some Kannada, of course, but it would be
> equally, if not more appropriate to brush up your spoken Sanskrit.  I
> visited Melkote briefly a couple of years ago, ...

You can also get by quite easily in Melkote if you
know Tamil, since nearly all the scholars there,
being Sri Vaishnavas, speak it fluently.

Mani




From gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Mon Jul  5 18:32:42 1999
From: gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Gail M. Coelho)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 13:32:42 -0500
Subject: Q: Kannada grammar
In-Reply-To: <000301bec6be$1217fb40$0a51b59d@dial.elte.hu>
Message-ID: <161227051174.23782.7586160123575766929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There's a description of "Spoken" or Informal Kannada by Harold Schiffman
and a description of Literary Kannada by Sridhar (this also has some info
on the Spoken form). I don't have details about date of publication, etc.
with me right now. But you could do a keyword search in the library,
perhaps? I'll send the full information on these books tomorrow.

Also, while you're in Mysore, you could drop in at the Central Institute of
Indian Languages in Mysore (it's near Manasagangotri campus, University of
Mysore). They have a lot of publications on languages with an emphasis on
language learning.

Gail Coelho.


>Friends,
>
>I am going to spend three months in Melkote (near Mysore), and I thought it
>would be nice to have some preliminary knowledge of the local dialect. So
>could someone, please, recommend a basic grammar or text-book of Kannada? If
>it is in print, so much the better. (We have nothing of the kind in Hungarian
>libraries).
>
>Thank you
>Ferenc




From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU  Mon Jul  5 19:57:26 1999
From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 15:57:26 -0400
Subject: Blood circulation
Message-ID: <161227051179.23782.4906742338202995903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In my notes, I have the following quotation from Susruta:  "blood . . .
running through the whole organism, has its primary seat in the heart,
whence it flows through the twenty-four vessels which branch off from the
heart to the remotest parts and extremeties of the body . . . flowing out
of heart, constantly soothes, maintains, and irrigates by transudation the
body, and further contributes to its growth,  and supports life owing to
the dynamical effects of causes which lie beyond the ken of human
understanding . . ." (From Susruta Samhita, sutrasthana, 14: 19-20)  If
this is correct, it is easy to assume that the Hindus knew about the blood
circulation much before Harvey.  I do not have a copy of Susruta Samhita
to check the validity of the above quotation.  When did Susruta write this
Samhita?

It is possible that Harvey discovered the fact independently unless we
have documents to support otherwise.

Alok Kumar
Department of Physics
State University of New York
Oswego, NY 13126.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Jul  5 15:43:48 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 16:43:48 +0100
Subject: Blood circulation
In-Reply-To: <19990705132913.9043.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227051165.23782.1121852587375646488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Temple is simply wrong about the Chinese knowing about the circulation of
the blood.

He is probably thinking of the the Huang-di Nei-jing in which one Ch'i Po
is said to hold the idea that there are conduit vessels which contain "a
flow which has an annular circuit".  But it is ch'i which is flowing in
these vessels, and perhaps cold influences, but not blood, or at least not
always blood. There is no mention of the heart.  There are complications
to this interpretation, which are all spelled out clearly in Unschuld's
classic "Medicine in China: a history of Ideas" (Berkeley, Univ. of
California, 1985), 75 ff. et passim.  See this for a fuller explanation,
as well as the usual Needham works.

Finally, there is more to the idea of blood circulation than merely
"things going round".  There is the functional distinction of arterial and
venous flow, for a start, as well as an understanding of the function of
the chambers of the heart and the link of the system with the lungs.  None
of these ideas is present in the Chinese texts.

And Sanskrit sources do not contain any description of blood circulation
either, so it wouldn't make any difference if Harvey had access to Arabic
translations of them or not.

If one actually reads Harvey's account, it is immediately perfectly clear
that he is talking about direct personal observation and experiment
throughout.  It doesn't really matter what may or may not have been
available to him from Asian sources -- and there is no evidence that he
was influenced by such -- he absolutely and certainly worked things out
for himself.

Best,
DW

--
Dominik Wujastyk




From parkrv at AOL.COM  Mon Jul  5 18:03:06 1999
From: parkrv at AOL.COM (Mahalingam Rajagopalan)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 19:03:06 +0100
Subject: Original Dravidian Homeland
Message-ID: <161227051172.23782.9074591742773891675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I was interested in Mr.Ganesan's post about the connection between Finnish
and Tamil. The following may be of interest to you. I had a Russian
friend,who was a professor of Indology in Leningrad University. He was
teaching Tamil and doing research in Linguistics with some Finnish and
Hungarian students. He told me that there is a great similarity between
Tamil and Finnish and Hungarian. He explained to me how linguists compare
words going to the root of words. The number of words he showed were too
many to be a coincidence. Although I cannot believe that there is a
connection between Tamil people and Hungarians and Finns, the evidence
seems to be convincing.
Regards . MR




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Mon Jul  5 23:59:13 1999
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 19:59:13 -0400
Subject: studies of sandhyopAsana
Message-ID: <161227051186.23782.481982832919335697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mani Varadarajan <mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:

> Can someone point me to a study of the brahminical
> sandhyopAsana ritual, particularly one which takes
> into account how it varies between members of the
> different Vedas and dharma-sUtras?

There is one study which touches upon the variations and also contains
references.

Doris Srinivasan, SamdhyA: Myth and Ritual, IIJ, Vol XV, No. 3, 1973,
pp. 161-178.

Rama




From jehms at KABELFOON.NL  Mon Jul  5 19:13:51 1999
From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 21:13:51 +0200
Subject: Blood circulation
In-Reply-To: <002501bec700$c2824fc0$c9026b83@prakash>
Message-ID: <161227051177.23782.5100839058146934417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi

I've been lurking this list for some time and it's obvious to me that some
members abide by a very simple syllogism: if it's any good it's from India if
not it's from somewhere else.
The idea behind it seems to be an uncanny feeling caused by the obvious paradox
with the visible reality. If I would answere 'bullshit' to all these
amateuristic archeology, somebody would probably answere that bullshit is an
Indian invention, because already mentiond in the veda's.

Op maandag, 05-jul-99 schreef Stephens:

S|> And Sanskrit sources do not contain any description of blood circulation
S|> either, so it wouldn't make any difference if Harvey had access to Arabic
S|> translations of them or not.


S| In this context, what is Shushruta's take on the human anatomy? Since he
S| seems to have carried out anatomical studies on dead bodies, did he write
S| anything about blood circulation.

S| Sujatha

Met vriendelijk groet
--
erik


 *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
  Erik Hoogcarspel           <    jehms at kabelfoon.nl   ><       Boerhaaveln 99b     >
                             <    tl+31.(0)104157097    ><       3112 LE Schiedam    >
                             <    fx+31.(0)842113137    ><       Holland             >
 *===================================================================================*




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Mon Jul  5 22:14:10 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 22:14:10 +0000
Subject: Original Dravidian Homeland
Message-ID: <161227051169.23782.10629951515410634716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dravidian has min meaning both 'shine' and 'fish'. Is this a coincidence?
Or a link with the Nilo-saharan?
Kalyanaraman

"H. Mark Hubey" <HubeyH at MAIL.MONTCLAIR.EDU> wrote:
> Ferenc Ruzsa wrote:
> >
> > >Does Hungarian meny (a kind of fish) and menny (heaven)
> > >come from a verb something to do with brightness or shining?
> >
> > To my best knowledge not. (Though you can say lightning with 'menny' also
in
> > hungarian, but they are plain compounds: 'mennyko' (heaven-stone) and
> > 'mennyd?rg?s' (heaven-thunder).)
> 
> I wanted to keep out of this, but this word can be connected with
> minngi (Karachay-Balkar mountain name as in Minngi TAu) and something
> like
> Minngir (or Mungur) from one of the Nilo-Saharan languages which denotes
> something like a god that lives in the sky or in high places or is the
> name
> of a mountain where a god (sky god lives). I think I read it in a book
> or article relating to NS or Dravidian.
> --
> Sincerely,
> M. Hubey
> hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu
> http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Mon Jul  5 22:47:49 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 22:47:49 +0000
Subject: Is Sanskrit Dravidian ?
Message-ID: <161227051171.23782.11786673353786772709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have not followed the thread fully; are the following etyma of the same
inheritance or re-borrowings from some proto-indian substrate?

DEDR 1974: kelngam yoke (Parji); kelman (Gadba)
DEDR 3694: nukam yoke (Tamil.Malaya_l.am); nu.n (Kota); noga (Kannad.a,
Kod.agu.Tulu.Telugu)
On the relationship between Hungarian and Dravidian min: is Rigvedic Vis.n.u
explained in the context of the Dravidian (DEDR 5396) vin. sky, heaven; bin-ye
name of the god of thunder and lightning (Maltese); cf. min shine (DEDR 4876).
Kalyanaraman

Hans Henrich Hock <hhhock at STAFF.UIUC.EDU> wrote:
> Yes, the morphemes in these endings and the morphology that combines the
> morphemes in all three languages are inherited from Proto-Indo-European.
> The phonetic differences result from regular sound changes applicable in
> these phonological contexts.  For a complete cognate word set with these
> endings see Skt. yug-a-m : Gk. zug-o-n : Lat. iug-u-m 'yoke'.
> 
> For details on these correspondences and the sound changes involved I would
> suggest you consult a comparative Indo-European grammar.
> 
> abhivaadaye,
> 
> Hans Henrich Hock
> 
> 
> >Hans Henrich Hock wrote:
> >>
> >> As they say in the vernacular, "facts is facts".
> >>
> >
> >But as much as the AI theorists might hate to admit it, we are dealing
> >with theory here.
> >
> >Are you really saying that Latin -um, Greek -on and Sanskrit -am are
> >related?
> >
> >I would think better of someone with your credentials (but can excuse
> >Lars).
> >
> >Regards,
> >Paul Kekai Manansala


____________________________________________________________________
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From hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Tue Jul  6 07:33:03 1999
From: hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 99 00:33:03 -0700
Subject: Kannada Grammar Book for a Non Kannada-Speaking Person Going to              Karnataka - Suggestions
Message-ID: <161227051188.23782.15709102203477836399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 =====================
Subject : Kannada Grammar Book for a Non Kannada-Speaking Person Going to
Karnataka
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Prof  Ferenc Ruzsa <f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU>,
Here are some suggestions for your query on grammar of Spoken Kannada:
(Here I am refering to some of the letters that appeared on Indology
Website, given at the end) :
1 Prof  Dominik Wujastyk is right. If you are proficient in Samskrita or at
least have a working knowledge of spoken Sanskrit, you will not be lost
there in Melukote, Karnataka. Many Sanskrit scholars live there.
2    With reference to Prof  Gail M. Coelho's suggestion:
A.  Prof Harold F. Schiffman's "A Reference Grammar of Spoken Kannada"
(Univ of Washington Press, Seattle & London, 1988, 178 pages) is helpful
for an exhaustive study.
B.  Prof  Shikaripur N.Sridhar, Professor of Linguistics in NY State Univ
in Stonybrook, NY has done extensive research on Kannada and has published
many books (including one on Kannada Grammar, that is very good) and papers
that may be helpful to you to meet your present need. You may contact him
at: "Prof S. N. Sridhar" <ssridhar at notes.cc.sunysb.edu>
C. Regarding:Central Institute of Indian Languages in Mysore (it's near
Manasagangotri campus, University of  Mysore). That is also right.
"Kannada Nudi -Ghatta (Stage/Level ) I and Ghatta  II " will be very
helpful to you. Volume I is basic book. The Objectives of Second Level
Volume ( Compiled by DR KP Acharya, 1980, pp xx +212) will help you to read
with ease and comprehension, make your own sentences and rewrite passages
in your own words, translate simple passages from Kannada to English and
vice versa.
There are books published by the Institute that may be useful to you,
please check about them, when you get there.
3.  With reference to Shri Mani Varadarajan's suggestion:
Kannada is the spoken language there in Melukote. If you know Tamil, it is
good, no doubt, as quite a few people know Tamil there, especially all Shri
Vaishnava Iyengar families. But it is better if you know Kannada. If at all
you want to learn a new spoken language while visiting a new place, I
suggest you learn the local language - which is Kannada in this case. At
least a working knowledge of it will help you immensely.  It will be easy
to master it you being in that locality. Your letter suggests that you want
to do this. Good luck!

4.  Now there are some other books, which you may consider owning /
borrowing from the Libraries., wherever you are. I will try to describe
them briefly. If you need more info on these, you may please eMail to me:

A.  "Learn Kannada in 30 Days" ( by Ranga Rao, Balaji Publications, 103,
Pycrofts Road, Madras -14, 1984, pp160). A simple, but useful guide to
learn Kannada thru' English. Words in Kannada are transliterated in
English, pronounciation, a little bit of grammar, verbs, nouns, catogerized
equivalent words in English, sentence formation, glossary of useful words
in Kannada.( Glossary in English would have been more helpgul!)
B.  "Spoken Kannada" (mAthanAduva Kannada) published by Kanadda
Sahitya Parishat (Kannada Literary Academi), Chamaraj Pet, Bangalore 560
018 ( 1982, pp 100). This is an excellent book for non-Kannadigas to learn
Kannada thru' English. This was the out come of lot of training & research
in the field. Yo need NOT know the Kannada script AT ALL to begin with.
Every thing is transliterated into English.
Lessons starting directly in the form of conversations, are simple but
gradually encompass wider ares of complexity. Grammar is taught in a very
subtle manner, through sentence formation building needed Vocabulary  all
along. An introduction to the Script is given at the end, briefly (in Eight
pages). The aim of the book is to teach a basic knowledge of Kannada to
those who live in the Metropolitan Cities of Karnataka and to those who
visit them.
C.  "Conversational Kannada" (By Dr UP Upadhyaya & Prof N D Krishnamurthy,
pub by NDK Institute of Languages, 418, 41st Cross, Fifth Block, Jayanagar,
Bangalore 560 041,  Second Edn 1981, pp 380)
"The general format is to begin with a dialogue relevant to the
socio-topical matrix of the learner's need and break down into tiniest
grammatical bits on syntax, morphology, etc."  The Director of Central
Institute of Indian Languages, Mysore mentions in his Foreward that the
"present book was originally designed for the Peace Corps, and has now been
revised to make it a little broad based." Startibg with  Verb-less
sentences and expressions of noun phrases, the book deals with Tense forms
, modal and other verb forms, complex sentence formation, idiomatic
expression. A Note on Kannada phonetics & Script and a Vocabulary list are
at the end.
It is a good book for  a formal study of the Conversational Kannada.through
'micro-wave approach' as the authors term it.
D. I have quite a few other books which are equally good in several
respects. But, I am afraid this letter itself has taken more space than I
originally intended to use, hence I conclude this with a request that you
or any body who need/s more info to eMail to me directly. I will try to
help to the best I can.
Sincerely,
-Harihareswara
Stockton, California.
====================
My letter is in response to these letters that appeared on Indology Website :
---------
Date:    Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:07:55 +0200
From:    Ferenc Ruzsa <f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU>
Subject: Q: Kannada grammar
Friends,
I am going to spend three months in Melkote (near Mysore), and I thought it
would be nice to have some preliminary knowledge of the local dialect. So
could someone, please, recommend a basic grammar or text-book of Kannada?
If it is in print, so much the better. (We have nothing of the kind in
Hungarian libraries).

Thank you
Ferenc
------------------------------
Date:    Mon, 5 Jul 1999 09:49:57 +0100
From:    Dominik Wujastyk <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Q: Kannada grammar

It would be practical to have some Kannada, of course, but it would be
equally, if not more appropriate to brush up your spoken Sanskrit.  I
visited Melkote briefly a couple of years ago, and there are many brahmins
and scholars there, both in the Academy and based at the temple (where
there is another manuscript collection), and Sanskrit is a very practical
and appropriate means of communication in that milieu.

Best,
Dominik
------------------------------
Date:    Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:32:42 -0500
From:    "Gail M. Coelho" <gail at UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Q: Kannada grammar

There's a description of "Spoken" or Informal Kannada by Harold Schiffman
and a description of Literary Kannada by Sridhar (this also has some info
on the Spoken form). I don't have details about date of publication, etc.
with me right now. But you could do a keyword search in the library,
perhaps? I'll send the full information on these books tomorrow.

Also, while you're in Mysore, you could drop in at the Central Institute of
Indian Languages in Mysore (it's near Manasagangotri campus, University of
Mysore). They have a lot of publications on languages with an emphasis on
language learning.

Gail Coelho.
--------------------
Date:    Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:06:43 PDT
From:    Mani Varadarajan <mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Q: Kannada grammar

> It would be practical to have some Kannada, of course, but it would be
> equally, if not more appropriate to brush up your spoken Sanskrit.  I
> visited Melkote briefly a couple of years ago, ...

You can also get by quite easily in Melkote if you
know Tamil, since nearly all the scholars there,
being Sri Vaishnavas, speak it fluently.
Mani
------------------------------
************************************************************




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Jul  6 06:56:24 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 99 07:56:24 +0100
Subject: Dravidians and Sergent
In-Reply-To: <005001bec53e$27eadc20$60514382@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <161227051194.23782.3491911293039689074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I do not think many are interested in the following, but in view of:

the recent simple, surface level, look-alike comparisons of Dravidian, W.
African and Tocharian by Winters, IE and Dravidian by  Keerthi Kumar,
Austronesian-Mon-Khmer-Munda (Austric) and Sanskrit by Manasala in their
web sites (about all of which separately when I get time),

it is important to point out that there is, after all,  a well-tested
method for comparative linguistics: not just in Indo-European but also in
Semitic, Austronesian, Bantu, etc. to name but a few obvious cases.

The same method can be applied to a comparison of these families (since,
after all, ultimately, we all came out of Africa...) However, Lars wrote:

At 12:22 +0200 7/3/99, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> When we start comparing reconstructions of proto-languages with other
>reconstructions of >proto-languages, the error potentiality becomes
>enormous

That really still is up for grabs, as so few people have tried
*systematically*,  and even less with the strict methods of traditional
comparative linguistics (sound laws and comparison of grammatical
elements). Until recently, we just got one-to-one comparisons of the kind
mentioned by Lars : >Dyen 's  criticism of the Austronesian-Indo-European
Hypothesis<
One can always make fun of such attempts, for, as we say, any 50 words in
any language can be compared with any 50 other in any other language. Thus
we had, Altaic and Quechua, IE and Korean, Hungarian and Tibetan/ Maori, to
name but a few...

>Admittedly, some languages contain extremely conservative elements -
>Lithuanian "sunus"  <<Latin sunus, Rgveda suunus> >

Correct, but that is not what I said or meant. Some sounds in many
languages are more stable than others.  Which leads to results such as
sunus (and Engl. sun), or German Jahr / Avestan yaar-... as I said:
Resonants and sibilants often are  more stable. Coincidence, certainly,
Avest & Germ.  developed in the same direction (aa), but  y- and -r are
stable (unlike in Scandinavian, of course, where y- has long gone the way
of all sounds, > zero).

> comparing languages that presumably split up 8-10,000 years ago simply
>makes no sense, ... If there are similarities, they are most likely due to
>chance.

This prescisely is Ruhlen's "IE myth". It is just as unproven as a
*general* theory, as a theory of a Eurasiatic common language at c. 10,000
BCE plus. Not to speak of Eve's language. The footwork  has still to be
done for *all* theories mentioned just now.

But I do not think  that this is impossible: one just has to use the
standard methods of comp. ling. and pay attemtion not only to sound
correspondences but also to some UNIQUE forms in grammar.
The most obvious case, in Nostratic, perhaps is the acc. -m in IE,
Finno-Ugrian (-m), Altaic (Mong. -b), Japanese (-w) etc. (Same sound
correspondences in other words, such as in "I/me"), or the possessive
genetive in -n- in the same languages.  Just for starters. ---
Such grammatical elements, *if* they fit established sound laws, can be as
little due to chance as the same correspondences of these forms *within* IE.
Similar sentinent by one of the long range comparativists, I. Peiros,  in
the Shevoroshkin festschrift  (ed. I. Hegedus, et al. , JIES 22, 1997)


Another one of  Lars' topics: Sergent's attempt to show "La genese de l'Inde"

Lars is of course entirely right as far as Sergent's attempt to be
inclusive and all-comprehensive is concerned. A definite improvement.  Also
his lengthy inclusion of Munda ("East Asian") mythology, so far treated
only (?) by H. Berger in 1953.  Unfortunately, Sergent's book is available
only in French.

However, since Sergent got into the subject as an non-specialist, his
statements about languages (above: W. Africa) and also about archaeology
are off the wall several times:

How and why should there be a close comparison between the Bactria-Margiana
culture and Mycene? The similaraties may as well be due to a common IE
origin. And even that is not clear: for, contrary to well known accounts
(Parpola),  where the  BMAC is IIr or IA speaking ,- it has donkeys &
camels, -- but no horses!

Or, as far as Sergent's mythology is concerned, one would have to
distinguish between stray correspondences, whether IE-Vedic, Vedic-Drav.,
or Vedic-Munda and the underlying, much more widespread, pan-Eurasian
phenomena.

Cooperation between various fields is of the essence. Yet, maybe, I should
not criticize Sergent, as I am finalizing a similar undertaking, a
re-combination of old and new articles on the subject...

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Jul  6 10:29:08 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 99 11:29:08 +0100
Subject: Blood circulation
In-Reply-To: <002501bec700$c2824fc0$c9026b83@prakash>
Message-ID: <161227051190.23782.17213300006453708371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Stephens wrote:

> In this context, what is Shushruta's take on the human anatomy? Since
> he seems to have carried out anatomical studies on dead bodies, did he
> write anything about blood circulation.


Nothing on blood "circulation".  See my book "The Roots of Ayurveda" pp.36
ff. for more on the ducts and tubes in the body, and what they carry.

See also

  editor =          "Thomas P. Kasulis and  Roger T. Ames and Wimal
                         Dissanayake",
  title =           "Self as body in Asian theory and practice",
  publisher =       "SUNY",
  year =            "1993",
  address =         "New York",
  isbn =            "0-7914-1080-3"

which contains important articles by Staal, Larson, and Koller on the
Indian body.

Also, Sue Hamilton's chapter in

  editor =          "Jane Marie Law",
  title =           "{Religious reflections on the human body}",
  publisher =       "Indiana University Press",
  year =            "1995",
  address =         "Bloomington and Indianapolis",
  isbn =            "0-253-33263-X"

Also

  author =          "Francis Zimmermann",
  title =           "{Remarks on the conception of the body in Ayurvedic
  medicine}",
  journal =         "South Asian Digest of Regional Writing",
  year =            "1979",
  volume =          "8",
  pages =           "10--26",
  isbn =            "3-515-03940-6",
  note =            "Actually published in 1983",

Dasgupta (1969), vol. 2, ch. 13, is good on several topics to do with the
body:  tubes (veins, arteries, nerves) in the body, growth, embryology
(see esp.  pp. 288#93, 302# 19)

Best,
--
Dominik Wujastyk




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Jul  6 11:14:47 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 99 12:14:47 +0100
Subject: Blood circulation
In-Reply-To: <37810E25.AC21B38F@oswego.edu>
Message-ID: <161227051192.23782.2236655938268132997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Alok Kumar wrote:

> (From Susruta Samhita, sutrasthana, 14: 19-20)  If this is correct, it
> is easy to assume that the Hindus knew about the blood circulation
> much before Harvey.  I do not have a copy of Susruta Samhita to check
> the validity of the above quotation.

The passage is in fact from SuSu 14:3, and it concerns not blood (rakta,
"sonita), but chyle (rasa), i.e., the juice to which food is reduced by
cooking in the digestive fire, and before it is converted into blood in
the liver and spleen. The passage (Velthuis encoding) runs as follows:

--

SuSu 14:3

tatra paa~ncabhautikasya caturvidhasya .sa.drasasya
dvividhaviiryasyaa.s.ta vidhaviiryasya vaa
'nekagu.nasyopayuktasyaahaarasya samyakpari.natasya yastejobhuuta.h
saara.h paramasuuk.sma.h sa rasa.h, ityucyate, tasya h.rdaya.m sthaana.m,
sa h.rdayaaccaturvi.m"satidhamaniiranupravi"syordhvagaa da"sa da"saa
dhogaaminya"scatasra"sca tiryaggaa.h k.rtsna.m "sariiramaharahastarpayati
vardhayati dhaarayati yaapayati caad.r.s.tahetukena karma.naa| tasya
"sariiramanu sarato 'numaanaadgatirupalak.sayitavyaa
k.sayav.rddhivaik.rtai.h tasmin
sarva"sariiraavayavado.sadhaatumalaa"sayaanusaari.ni rase
jij~naasaakimaya.m saumyastaijasa iti atrocyatesa khalu dravaanusaarii
snehanajiivanata rpa.nadhaara.naadibhirvi"se.sai.h saumya ityavagamyate 3

--

Apart from the fact that this does not describe blood, but rasa, it is
important to note that it also does not describe circulation, but
uni-directional river-like flow.  I.e., rasa moves from the heart
(ablative) outwards along the 24 pipes (dhamanis, usually the bearers of
vaata).  It doesn't go round; it doesn't go to the lungs (which are not
clearly described in ayurveda).  It doesn't come back.  The verb you get
is "anusarati", but this doesn't mean "circulate", but "seek" or "follow"
(you would want the prefix "pari" to give any sense of going round).  The
general scientific metaphor, which is made explicit elsewhere (SuSa 7.3),
is that of the irrigation of gardens and fields.

Finally, the author actually says that he doesn't know why any of this
happens:  "ad.r.s.tahetukena karma.naa".

You ask about Su's date:

"The upshot, after taking account of these and other arguments, is that in
Susruta's text we have a work the kernel of which probably started some
centuries BC in the form of a text mainly on surgery, but which was then
heavily revised and added to in the centuries before AD 500.  This is the
form in which we have received the work in the oldest surviving
manuscripts today."

                -- Roots of Ayurveda, p.105

--

I find these questions interesting, and I am not surprised or offended
that people without deep study of these matters assume that everything
must be already pre-discovered in the Sanskrit texts.  This is, after all,
merely an extension of the pure orthodox position that all knowledge is in
the Veda.  Generations of people have been taught this from childhood.
And in fact, there are many surprising and original insights in Sanskrit
texts, which is why they are so enjoyable and interesting.  But blood
circulation does not happen to be one of them.

However, it is true that perhaps beginners should not be posting to this
list, which assumes a university-level acquaintance with original sources.

--
Dominik Wujastyk




From thompson at JLC.NET  Tue Jul  6 19:03:18 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 99 15:03:18 -0400
Subject: Dravidians and Sergent
In-Reply-To: <v03020900b3a4e6231f1b@[140.247.41.119]>
Message-ID: <161227051197.23782.4698772318375539159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In general I agree with the remarks of Michael Witzel re Nostratic, and a
comparative method in linguistics that is as applicable to language groups
as it is to individual languages. We shouldn't let the bad methodology of
some close our minds to the possibility that good methodology might lead to
good results.

But I also agree with Lars Martin Fosse that with Nostratic we are dealing
with something very difficult indeed:

>> When we start comparing reconstructions of proto-languages with other
>>reconstructions of >proto-languages, the error potentiality becomes
>>enormous.

It seems to me that there are good reasons why one might express less
confidence in reconstructions of Nostratic than in reconstructions of PIE.
Likewise, I at least feel less confidence in PIE reconstructions than I do
in Proto-Indo-Iranian reconstructions. On the other hand, I feel rather
confident that assertions about Old Iranian on the one hand and Old Indic
on the other can be verified, and tested against a given corpus.

One thing that troubles me about the little Nostratic research that I have
seen is that it seems to rely on the comparison of word-lists. Ruhlen for
example seems to me to be an avid compiler of lists. I worry that there is
no evidence of philology [the study of texts] in his work.  In this he
doesn't seem very different in his methodology from the scholars whose
simple surface comparisons MW rightly criticizes. How much can we rely on
work that is built on the plundering of large numbers of dictionaries in
search of forms that have a [usually vaguely] approximate phonic and
semantic fit?

Many of us on this list are oriented to textual studies. Thus our
misgivings re Nostratic may be attributed to the natural conservatism of
philologists.  I find it rather ironic that MW,  accused recently of being
'closed minded' on this [the Indology] list, is here defending the new
field of Nostratic studies. Surely, he is displaying a more open mind in
this regard than I, for example, am able to.

I for one would like to hear what others think about the interesting issues
raised by MW and LMFosse.

George Thompson




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Jul  6 20:44:53 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 99 16:44:53 -0400
Subject: Padmavati
Message-ID: <161227051199.23782.7484364959430423288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There are two large books specifically on the Jaina deity Padmavati:

1. 95-901142:   Sri Parsvanathopasargaharini sasanadevi Sri

     Padmavati mata /  1. avrtti.  Bhavanagara : Arihanta Prakasana,

     1994.  4, 556 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 25 cm.

     LC CALL NUMBER: BL1375.7.P33 S65 1994  <Orien Guj>

2. 81-903914:   Sarvarthasiddhidayini Bhagavati Padmavati upasana /

     1. avrtti.  Amadavada : Mesarsa Sarabhai Manilala Navaba, 1980.

     11, 19, 14, 216, 148, 16 p., {4} p. of plates : ill. (some col.)
; 25 cm.
     LC CALL NUMBER: BL1375.7 .P33 1980  <Orien Guj>



The first consists of contributed articles.

Allen Thrasher
Library of Congress




From suji at HOME.COM  Tue Jul  6 21:31:13 1999
From: suji at HOME.COM (Stephens)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 99 17:31:13 -0400
Subject: Blood circulation
Message-ID: <161227051203.23782.11767772936179586771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

I am sorry to note that my straight forward question has elicited such
responses. Eric has implied that I had ulterior motives in posing the
question and Dominik has put it plainly that postings (which I presume
include questions) from non-scholars in the subject are not welcome.

I was of the opinion that this forum's purpose was to increase Indological
knowledge by exchange of information through discussions. A body of
knowledge
which is unchallenged (challenge, in my book, could come from any quarter)
does not grow/develop. What is research worth if it can't face a few
opposing view points?

Besides, this forum has had naive questions posted every now and then by
both scholars (No one is a scholar in all topics) and non-scholars which
have
resulted in excellent discussions.

Hobbyists do add value to any body of knowledge. Didn't Levy, the hobbyist
play a role in the discovery of Shoemaker-Levy9? Throughout scientific
history, you
will see that many an unconventional learner has made significant
contributions. It is the fresh perspective that these people bring in that
makes
them great discoverers/inventors. In my field (Computer Science) this has
yielded phenomenal results.

My understanding of the scope of this list has obviously been wrong.  There
will be no more posts from me to this list.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who ever responded
to my questions/comments. I truly appreciate it.

Best regards,
Sujatha Stephen


Sujatha wrote:

In this context, what is Shushruta's take on the human anatomy? Since he
seems to have carried out anatomical studies on dead bodies, did he write
anything about blood circulation.

Erik Hoogcarspel  responded:

Hi

I've been lurking this list for some time and it's obvious to me that some
members abide by a very simple syllogism: if it's any good it's from India
if
not it's from somewhere else.
The idea behind it seems to be an uncanny feeling caused by the obvious
paradox
with the visible reality. If I would answere 'bullshit' to all these
amateuristic archeology, somebody would probably answere that bullshit is an
Indian invention, because already mentiond in the veda's.

Dominik Wujatsyk said:
However, it is true that perhaps beginners should not be posting to this
list, which assumes a university-level acquaintance with original sources.




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Jul  6 23:09:16 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 99 19:09:16 -0400
Subject: Indology constraints
Message-ID: <161227051206.23782.4342143923246829250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Today's message by Sujatha Stephens leads me to discuss the recent limits
imposed on enthusiastic participation in the Indology  list.

The size and number constraints that have been imposed look reasonable on the
surface, but looked at carefully, one can see how easily one can run afoul of
these rules. The size and number rules are not independent of each other.
Consider the case of a list member on travel for sometime. When he gets back,
the number of messages that would have accumulated in that time could easily
include four to which the member may be in a position to respond. If the
member does that in one sitting, then he/she would face a warning because of
posting more than the allowed number of messages/day.

Take the case of total number of messages or size of the individual messages.
The more interesting and wide-ranging a discussion is, the more the number of
points one will have to address. In that case, one can do one of the
following.
1. Deliberately withhold information which may be of use to the list.
2. Post a message longer than the limit of 2000 typed in characters.
3. Split the message into many  smaller ones that satisfy the size
constraint, but over a month leading to possible violation of the 15-message
limit.

Item one does not benefit Indology. One should remember what Prof. Aklujkar
wrote in Indology on 3/28/99. "It is such exchange of information across the
divides which the early Indologists' taxonomies and the linguistic
reorganization of India have created and accentuated that I consider one of
the most important contributions the INDOLOGY list is making. The overarching
capabilities that great scholars like S. Kuppuswami Sastri, V. Raghavan and
K.A. Nilakanta Sastri had can now be realised in Indology, it seems, only
through sharing of information that occurs on INDOLOGY."

Items 2 and 3 end up penalizing the member for doing what the list is all
about. In my view, the problem is not one of a few members posting many
sub-standard messages. But it is one of many serious scholars not
participating in the discussions at all. The list suffers from a lack of
participation of scholars in the field of religion, history, archaeology,
linguistics, etc.  Has the intellectual curiosity of the serious scholars
died out in the last three years? I think not. (Keeping within the 2k limit,
more in the next message)

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Jul  6 23:44:59 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 99 19:44:59 -0400
Subject: Indology constraints (contd.)
Message-ID: <161227051208.23782.16574196966806536290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Seeing the archives of Indology-related but closed lists like RISA, one sees
that many scholars are withdrawing behind exclusive lists that keep out those
non-degreed in Indology-related areas. This could result in Indological
conclusions as in the case of each of the four (or five?)  blind men judging
the nature of an elephant by touching a different part of the elephant's
body. For example, recently in the RISA list, there was a query regarding
rituals related to aborted fetuses and/or  miscarried babies. The thread
closed without anybody mentioning an important ritual related to the subject
mentioned in CT. That is not surprising. Many scholars of Indian religion
today do not have the knowledge of literature which earlier traditional
scholars had. If that query had been posted in Indology, the originator would
have gained some valuable information from the "non-professionals". That is
why an open list like Indology is very valuable for pursuit of Indological
knowledge.

Recently, an European Indologist wrote to me the following regarding the
posting of too many messages by some.
"Another point you should note is that Indology is a very difficult field but
that the feeling of one's ignorance is much more overwhelming for one who is
not of Indian origin. This is why the number of queries by people from
European countries has decreased drastically (compare with what it was at the
beginning, 10 years back). They are probably afraid to say anything. In the
end, it might become
purely Indian (if the same trend goes on)"

I do not know if this was based on his inference or views expressed to him by
other European Indologists. Is this the general view of non-Indian members?

Prof. Aklujkar wrote on Nov 23, 1997 the following: "An awareness needs to be
maintained that what is considered to be scientific or professional is
relative to time and is determined to a considerable extent by the context in
which most of the scientists or professionals of a particular generation are
trained. A greater loss to a field of inquiry can result from dismissing the
questions and comments of intelligent and interested non-professionals than
from "wasting" a few seconds to delete the postings about the non-validity of
which one is certain."

In light of the above and the digest option available, do we really need the
constraints at all? What do others think?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From thompson at JLC.NET  Wed Jul  7 02:27:46 1999
From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 99 22:27:46 -0400
Subject: Indology constraints (contd.)
In-Reply-To: <8045659d.24b3eefb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227051212.23782.4116882923735684606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to S. Palaniappan's eloquent plea for a change in list policy,
and George Cronk's eloquent articulation of the "non-professional's view":

The list is explicitly intended to be a vehicle for those who are
*informed* about the delimited subject matter of Indology. If I understand
the list guidelines accurately, all lurkers are welcome but active
participants should be *reasonably* well informed. No one, as far as I can
tell, has ever objected to an occasional 'innocent question' from a novice,
but the list has all too frequently been over-run by clearly uninformed
ideologues who do not have anything interesting to contribute *to scholarship.*

S. Palaniappan is right to observe that scholars need to be open to
insights from any sources whatsoever. But the internet is filled with
self-proclaimed geniuses who plan to revise the way we think about just
about everything.  When I seek insight from such geniuses I go to the
countless 'unrecognized-genius' lists that are all over the internet map.
But when I want insight from scholars, I go to scholarly lists, and when I
want insight from scholars on Indological matters, I go to Indology.

No doubt a certain amount of creativity is desirable, even necessary, in
scholarship.  But unlike art, scholarship requires not only creativity. It
also requires, well, scholarship.

If the list does not hold to the principle that scholarship has something
to contribute to the discussion of Indological matters, then it has failed
to live up to its stated goals.

A direct question to S. Palaniappan: would you bother to attend a
conference on Indological matters which allowed presentations by *any*
interested parties whatsoever, including new age gurus from New Mexico? Or
would you go instead to the conference which offered  a series of
presentations by people who you knew were recognized specialists in the
fields that they were discussing?

As for myself, I come to this list because I want to learn about the
discussions that take place at conferences like the one recently advertised
by Jan Houben on the problem of identifying soma/haoma, etc. Perhaps
someone who attended that conference will be kind enough to give a summary.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jul  6 20:54:23 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 99 22:54:23 +0200
Subject: Dravidians and Sergent
Message-ID: <161227051201.23782.18401574424978528174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel wrote:

> 
> At 12:22 +0200 7/3/99, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
> 
> > When we start comparing reconstructions of proto-languages with other
> >reconstructions of >proto-languages, the error potentiality becomes
> >enormous
> 
> That really still is up for grabs, as so few people have tried
> *systematically*,  and even less with the strict methods of traditional
> comparative linguistics (sound laws and comparison of grammatical
> elements). Until recently, we just got one-to-one comparisons of the kind
> mentioned by Lars : >Dyen 's  criticism of the Austronesian-Indo-European
> Hypothesis<

In principle, Michael is of course right: the rigorous use of the comparative method may in principle take us further back than we have come so far. My scepticism is due to the fact that this very rigor seems to get frayed at the edges when we move beyond the single families to create superfamilies. At least this is the impression I get when I see Nostraticism in practice. And I am not alone in my sceptical attitude: Dixon in his "Rise and Fall of Languages" expresses a similar scepticism not to mention a bunch of Indo-Europeanists. I suppose I shall simply have to live with the fact that Ruhlen disagrees with me. The point in my opinion is this: as languages move apart through time, the number of ancient elements that can be compared becomes smaller and smaller. I suspect that at some critical point it sinks below the limit for randomness, in other words: similarities may equally well be explained by chance as by historical relatedness (or as Michael says: any 50 words in any language can be compared with any 50 other in any other language.) This is when comparisons cease to be meaningful, and I think it is a matter of importance to scholars to learn how to decide when they are about to go off on a wild goose chase where good, well-documented results simply will not be forthcoming. Research is a precious thing, but some research simply seems to be a waste of time and money. 
    Fixing a limit for randomness, in other words, deciding when to quit a research project because it will not produce meaningful results, is of course difficult. There is no absolutely foolproof formula. But I think that responsible scholars will have to think about this because it concerns us all and the status of our science. 

> >Admittedly, some languages contain extremely conservative elements -
> >Lithuanian "sunus"  <<Latin sunus, Rgveda suunus> >
> 
> Correct, but that is not what I said or meant. Some sounds in many
> languages are more stable than others.  Which leads to results such as
> sunus (and Engl. sun), or German Jahr / Avestan yaar-... as I said:
> Resonants and sibilants often are  more stable. Coincidence, certainly,
> Avest & Germ.  developed in the same direction (aa), but  y- and -r are
> stable (unlike in Scandinavian, of course, where y- has long gone the way
> of all sounds, > zero).

I was not really thinking about what Michael said regarding sounds, I just wanted to give a simple illustration of a linguistic element that has survived for an incredibly long time. But Michael are of course right that some sounds are more stable than others. HOWEVER: "more stable" is a relative concept, and the stability is not rulebound, it is only a statistical phenomenon. Which somehow reduces the value of this insight in practical situations where documentation is weak. 

> 
> > comparing languages that presumably split up 8-10,000 years ago simply
> >makes no sense, ... If there are similarities, they are most likely due to
> >chance.
> 
> This prescisely is Ruhlen's "IE myth". It is just as unproven as a
> *general* theory, as a theory of a Eurasiatic common language at c. 10,000
> BCE plus. Not to speak of Eve's language. The footwork  has still to be
> done for *all* theories mentioned just now.

In principle I agree with this, at least up to a point: the itchy word is of course "proof". Having seen the word "proof" turn up in a large number of contexts where it doesn't really belong, I would prefer to turn to the concept of probability. Some things can't be proven without proper historical documents, and since there are no historical documents to help us here, we are forced to rely on probabilities. Now, here is a piece of elementary logic: probabilities NEVER prove anything. If I say "there is a 99% probability that A = B", then I have NOT proved that A = B. I have just given a probability, although a very high one. In practical life, we would act upon such a probability, in fact we usually rely upon far worse probabilities when making informed choices or guesses. The "general theory" cannot be proven.  But common sense may still uphold it. 
 
> But I do not think  that this is impossible: one just has to use the
> standard methods of comp. ling. and pay attemtion not only to sound
> correspondences but also to some UNIQUE forms in grammar.
> The most obvious case, in Nostratic, perhaps is the acc. -m in IE,
> Finno-Ugrian (-m), Altaic (Mong. -b), Japanese (-w) etc. (Same sound
> correspondences in other words, such as in "I/me"), or the possessive
> genetive in -n- in the same languages.  Just for starters. ---
> Such grammatical elements, *if* they fit established sound laws, can be as
> little due to chance as the same correspondences of these forms *within* IE.
> Similar sentinent by one of the long range comparativists, I. Peiros,  in
> the Shevoroshkin festschrift  (ed. I. Hegedus, et al. , JIES 22, 1997)

The interesting question here is of course if such similarities are due to area linguistics or genetics. And they MAY still be due to chance.... :-)
 
> Cooperation between various fields is of the essence. Yet, maybe, I should
> not criticize Sergent, as I am finalizing a similar undertaking, a
> re-combination of old and new articles on the subject...

I think such cooperation is a prerequisite for making progress, and before we have learned to do it properly, we will all screw up sooner or later. Probably sooner.  But it is worth trying.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From george9252 at MSN.COM  Wed Jul  7 12:21:29 1999
From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 99 08:21:29 -0400
Subject: Indology constraints (contd.)
Message-ID: <161227051210.23782.4088246274515778370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have mixed feelings about this.  I am a "non-professional" from the United
States (New Jersey), of European and Native-American ("Indian") heritage(s),
although I do have a Ph.D. degree in Philosophy, teach Philosophy and
Religion, and have edited two anthologies of English renditions of Eastern
philosophical classics (Confucius, Nagarjuna, Nishida, Shamkara,
Radhakrishnan, etc.).  I do read and translate Greek, Latin, French, and
German -- but not Sanskrit or other Indian languages, which is mainly why I
say I am a "non-professional."

I have been a member of the list for more than two years.  I follow the list
on a daily basis, but I participate (put my 2 cents in) only very
occasionally.  That's because I do feel that I am a "non-professional" here,
and I think that, as such, I should mainly "hear" what the experts are
saying on the subjects addressed on the list.

I do find it a pain that some members of the list enter message after
message after message, often of rather significant length, and very often in
order to (apparently) grind political, religious, and ethnic-cultural axes.
Some of this axe-grinding, ideological (not "indological") stuff is
interesting; some of it is fascinating (to an "outsider"); but a lot of it
is really insufferable and boring.

I guess I would like to offer myself as an example for other
"non-professionals":  Be a list-member; follow the discussions that interest
you (deleting those that don't); "hear" regularly, but "speak" only once in
a while.

Dr. George Cronk
Chair, Dept. of Philosophy & Religion
Bergen Community College (NJ)



----- Original Message -----
From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 7:44 PM
Subject: Indology constraints (contd.)


> Seeing the archives of Indology-related but closed lists like RISA, one
sees
> that many scholars are withdrawing behind exclusive lists that keep out
those
> non-degreed in Indology-related areas. This could result in Indological
> conclusions as in the case of each of the four (or five?)  blind men
judging
> the nature of an elephant by touching a different part of the elephant's
> body. For example, recently in the RISA list, there was a query regarding
> rituals related to aborted fetuses and/or  miscarried babies. The thread
> closed without anybody mentioning an important ritual related to the
subject
> mentioned in CT. That is not surprising. Many scholars of Indian religion
> today do not have the knowledge of literature which earlier traditional
> scholars had. If that query had been posted in Indology, the originator
would
> have gained some valuable information from the "non-professionals". That
is
> why an open list like Indology is very valuable for pursuit of Indological
> knowledge.
>
> Recently, an European Indologist wrote to me the following regarding the
> posting of too many messages by some.
> "Another point you should note is that Indology is a very difficult field
but
> that the feeling of one's ignorance is much more overwhelming for one who
is
> not of Indian origin. This is why the number of queries by people from
> European countries has decreased drastically (compare with what it was at
the
> beginning, 10 years back). They are probably afraid to say anything. In
the
> end, it might become
> purely Indian (if the same trend goes on)"
>
> I do not know if this was based on his inference or views expressed to him
by
> other European Indologists. Is this the general view of non-Indian
members?
>
> Prof. Aklujkar wrote on Nov 23, 1997 the following: "An awareness needs to
be
> maintained that what is considered to be scientific or professional is
> relative to time and is determined to a considerable extent by the context
in
> which most of the scientists or professionals of a particular generation
are
> trained. A greater loss to a field of inquiry can result from dismissing
the
> questions and comments of intelligent and interested non-professionals
than
> from "wasting" a few seconds to delete the postings about the non-validity
of
> which one is certain."
>
> In light of the above and the digest option available, do we really need
the
> constraints at all? What do others think?
>
> Regards
> S. Palaniappan




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Jul  7 09:04:10 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 99 10:04:10 +0100
Subject: Indology constraints (contd.)
In-Reply-To: <00fe01bec873$3eb81c00$39800a3f@MSNgeorge9252>
Message-ID: <161227051214.23782.11215679670532251044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I rather think Sujatha Stephen has overreacted, but I warmly welcome the
current discussion which has ensued about the contraints enjoined on this
list.

Several good points have been made, but I'd like to pick just one for
comment now:

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM> said,

>In that case, one can do one of the following.
>1. Deliberately withhold information which may be of use to the list.

I think that this is indeed a reasonable position to take.  I know that
quite a few professional Indologists are rather isolated, often being the
only such India specialist in a department of religion, language, or
history, or perhaps being an independent scholar.  But there is still
really no need to see INDOLOGY as the place where one has to express every
single "useful" piece of information one has.  One can pick up the phone
and chat to a colleague elsewhere, post a letter, start a discussion in a
student seminar, or even engage in an email exchange directly with someone
who posted to the list. The latter choice becomes even more appropriate
if, later on, one posts a summary of the useful discussion back to the
list, so that some value gets ploughed back in.

INDOLOGY isn't the be-all of indological exchange, thank goodness, it is
just one forum amongst many.  Even if someone says "What is X?" and you
happen to know all about X, it still isn't necessary to answer to the
list, especially if an answer contravenes the simple constraints which are
aimed at making INDOLOGY a bearable experience overall.

Not everything that can be said should be said.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list
--
I'm listening.
        -- Frasier Crane




From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jul  7 22:31:18 1999
From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 99 15:31:18 -0700
Subject: One Reference/Post Proposal
In-Reply-To: <3783CF51.A6097FE1@bc.seflin.org>
Message-ID: <161227051222.23782.758735549194810993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> birgit kellner wrote:
> >
> > Samar Abbas wrote:
> >
> > >  One method of increasing the academic quality of the list is to impose a
> > > requirement that each posting must contain a CITATION from a full REFERENCE.
> >
> > In addition, I suggest that each posting must contain at least one footnote for
> > every 40 characters (excluding punctuation).
> >
> > "The origins remain misty"
> > (H.N. Randle, "Indian Logic in the Early Schools", OUP 1930, p.1).
>
> I disagree with both of them if this is the type of footnote they have
> in mind. [rant deleted]

Alert: Birgit was kidding.

Mani




From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG  Wed Jul  7 22:06:09 1999
From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 99 18:06:09 -0400
Subject: One Reference/Post Proposal
Message-ID: <161227051220.23782.5195456375270600482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

birgit kellner wrote:
>
> Samar Abbas wrote:
>
> >  One method of increasing the academic quality of the list is to impose a
> > requirement that each posting must contain a CITATION from a full REFERENCE.
>
> In addition, I suggest that each posting must contain at least one footnote for
> every 40 characters (excluding punctuation).
>
> "The origins remain misty"
> (H.N. Randle, "Indian Logic in the Early Schools", OUP 1930, p.1).

I disagree with both of them if this is the type of footnote they have
in mind.
I fail to see what is relevance of the reference and why does one have
to read some one else's opinion however irrelevant it may be, in order
to be able to post his/her own views?
Is it not "you scratch my back and I will scratch your back" philosophy?
To me this appears as another form of spamming by trying to sell some
one
else's books or works and nothing else

Does the study of Indology has been degraded to the level where
recitation of old writers in the tradition of 'Praman' and Treaties is
the only justification for scholarship? Is there anything wrong with
some one doing own study of original texts etc. and proposing a new
insight? To be considered a science with the suffix 'logy', Indolgy,
like any other field of scientific study, must allow freedom of inquiry
no matter how heretical it may be. Each opinion has to be judged on its
own merit.

Even if some one makes a facetious posting, most keyboard are fully
equipped with 'del' key. Just because a message has been posted does not
mean that it has to be answered by every  one else.

--
Have a peaceful and joyous day.
Aditya Mishra
Primary e-mail: a018967t at bc.seflin.org
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ # 1131674 Mediaring # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #:  209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
        Just sliding down the razor blade of life.




From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Wed Jul  7 17:39:58 1999
From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 99 19:39:58 +0200
Subject: One Reference/Post Proposal
Message-ID: <161227051218.23782.692305155141342806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Samar Abbas wrote:

>  One method of increasing the academic quality of the list is to impose a
> requirement that each posting must contain a CITATION from a full REFERENCE.

In addition, I suggest that each posting must contain at least one footnote for
every 40 characters (excluding punctuation).

"The origins remain misty"
(H.N. Randle, "Indian Logic in the Early Schools", OUP 1930, p.1).


:-)
--
Birgit Kellner
Institut f. Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist
Studies
Universitaet Wien / Vienna University




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jul  8 00:54:08 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 99 20:54:08 -0400
Subject: Indology constraints (contd.)
Message-ID: <161227051224.23782.1182190063461527426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I thank Thompson and Cronk for their views. I do share in their desire to see
more thoughtful and reasoned discussions on the list. However, I take a more
benign view of queries from "non-professionals". The reason is that in the
course of trying to answer these queries, I have discovered very valuable
findings. I do find connections between seemingly disparate topics so much so
that I feel one may never realize how or to whom a particular fact may be
useful. Serendipity is a factor in these endeavors. So I have a philosophical
preference for discussing things on the list as opposed to off the list.

I feel that bureaucratic numerical quotas do not belong in intellectual
discussions. They unfairly and unnecessarily penalize intellectual
productivity and curiosity. Take the case of Prof. Cronk. If you look at the
archives, on January 3, 1999, he has posted four messages. Ironically, one of
the messages was to apologize for inadvertently posting many messages. A
bureaucratic application of the 3 messages/day rule would result in a warning
to him. It is because of situations like this, I dislike quotas. There were
some recent messages (such as Witzel's on 7/6/99) which exceeded the 2k
limit. But I found them very informative. Instead of discouraging such
messages, we should worry why other scholars do not participate in such
discussions.

As for Thompson's question to me as to which conference I would attend, given
his two options, I would certainly prefer the one with specialists. However,
a better analogy is a typical scholarly conference where multiple panel
sessions are held either simultaneously or sequentially. The calibre of panel
members may vary within and between panels. In such cases, one chooses to
attend some sessions and not others. Also, there may not be any upper limit
on panels one participates in as long as what is being presented is of
relevance to the panel. The difference between a panel discussion and a list
discussion is that if an unruly person keeps shouting during a panel
discussion, there is no magic wand to make him/her disappear. But, we do have
one on the list - the delete key. Also, most scholars by now would have
formed their opinions as to who the disruptive persons are. It should be easy
to get rid of their messages.

See Prof. Aklujkar's thoughtful views on this issue in his list message on
11/23/97.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Wed Jul  7 15:55:06 1999
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 99 21:25:06 +0530
Subject: One Reference/Post Proposal
In-Reply-To: <00fe01bec873$3eb81c00$39800a3f@MSNgeorge9252>
Message-ID: <161227051216.23782.3225061842843747531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 One method of increasing the academic quality of the list is to impose a
requirement that each posting must contain a CITATION from a full REFERENCE.
This policy would serve several purposes :

+ It would ensure the poster has read at least one book on Indology.
+ This would help the scholars, who would be able to cite these references
  in their work, or find new bibliographical sources by increasing the
  no. of references that appear on the list.
+ The academic quality of at least the cited part of each posting is
  ensured, so when a message is opened a scholar can be sure that, whoever
  the poster, reading it will not be a waste of time.
+ It would not deprive specialists of new ideas from `novices'.
+ It would put an end to the long debate on the place of `laymen'; as long
  as they cite a book (with page no.), they prove themselves somewhat
  literate in indology.
+ Personal opinions that arise on the breakfast table will not get posted.

On The ROOT CAUSE for Complaints Voiced in Some Quarters -

 Currently, only one in nearly ten posts has a reference, and only one in
twenty has a citation from a reference (despite the current 2k and 10
posts/month rules). Not much help for scholars who wish to see citations
rather than shouting matches. The is perhaps the root cause for the
`wasted time' syndrome professionals feel when using this list. In order
to address these justified grieveances, it is necessary to tackle the
problem at the very root rather than address superficial aspects of it.
The proposed regulation requiring a full and complete bibliographic
citation should adequately address this root cause.

On Number and Frequency of Posts -

 The proposed regulation should, on its own, drasticaly decrease the
volume of postings. Whether this reference regulation should hence operate
in addition to the 2k-size and 10 posts/month rules, or replace them, is a
matter which needs to be addressed. It is possible some posters may still
overload the list by citing one reference and writing a lot of other
gibberish in one post; it hence follows that the BEST POLICY is to ENFORCE
ALL 3 RULES -

 - 2k RULE : Each post should be one screenful long
 - 10 POSTS/MONTH RULE : 10 posts per member per month.
 - REFERENCE RULE : One full quotation from a full reference.

On Nature of Reference

 Whether the references cited sould be solely bibliographic, or include
 internet URLs is an open question. Since URLs are now cited in academic
 papers, it follows that these should be allowed. Whilst this may give an
 advantage to owners of homepages who may simply cite their own site, it
 still ensures that the poster knows something and had the knowledge to
 set up a site.

I hereby submit this proposal to Prof. Dominik Wujastyk and the list
members for their kind perusal and comments as to its usefulness, and as
to whether it sould be adopted or not.

Samar




From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK  Thu Jul  8 05:28:01 1999
From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 99 06:28:01 +0100
Subject: Indology constraints (contd.)
Message-ID: <161227051228.23782.4928943655586048918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S. Palaniappan writes:

>In light of the above and the digest option available, do we really need the
>constraints at all? What do others think?

Yes. Very much so. The list is much improved since the constraints
were introduced.

L.S. Cousins

MANCHESTER, UK

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk




From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Thu Jul  8 08:39:16 1999
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 99 09:39:16 +0100
Subject: Indology constraints (contd.)
In-Reply-To: <v04210100b3a9e6fbf023@[194.66.22.29]>
Message-ID: <161227051230.23782.96900191249154574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, L.S.Cousins wrote:

> S. Palaniappan writes:
>
> >In light of the above and the digest option available, do we really need the
> >constraints at all? What do others think?
>
> Yes. Very much so. The list is much improved since the constraints
> were introduced.

I was on the point of unsubscribing from the list when the constraints
were introduced. I shall certainly do so if they are withdrawn.

If S. Palaniappan would like a high-traffic group, he is free to set one
up.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Thu Jul  8 09:42:10 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 99 09:42:10 +0000
Subject: Dravidians and Sergent
Message-ID: <161227051226.23782.7849026936108586146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Michael Witzel <witzel at fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
...I do not think many are interested in the
>following, but in view of: the recent simple, surface
>level, look-alike comparisons of Dravidian, W.African
>and Tocharian by Winters, IE and Dravidian by  Keerthi
>Kumar, Austronesian-Mon-Khmer-Munda (Austric) and
>Sanskrit by Manasala in theirweb sites (about all of
>which separately when I get time),...

I want to add one more to the comparison list:
The list of Sanskrit and Akkadian correspondences in:
Malati J Shendge, The Language of Harappans: From
Akkadian to Sanskrit, 1997, Delhi, Abhinav
Publications.

The list also cites Avestan equivalents.

See for example, No. 1 (p.202): Skt. asura, a name of
a god designated as the Ultimate Reality; reference to
As'ur cult in Old Akkadian tablets before Sargon (i.e.
before 2370 BC) where the city of As's;ur is mentioned
as A-s'i_r (ki)...

Of course Shendge's thesis is that the Harappans were
asurs... 

In which case, was the language Avestan-related? Was 
the direction Skt.>Av.? Is it true that the Avestan yasna 
doesn't have Dravidian substrate words?

Regards,
Kalyanaraman


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU  Thu Jul  8 08:00:09 1999
From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 99 10:00:09 +0200
Subject: Thanks: Kannada grammar
Message-ID: <161227051242.23782.149146013291270413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I thank everybody replying for their helpful suggestions.
The idea was, basically, not to survive in Melkote, but to use my time well
there. To learn some spoken Sanskrit is the main motive for my going there;
but of course I am trying hard already to convert some of my unidirectional
single medium capabilities (i. e. I can only read) into something more
versatile.
Thank you again
Ferenc




From rsoneji at MB.SYMPATICO.CA  Thu Jul  8 21:15:03 1999
From: rsoneji at MB.SYMPATICO.CA (Soneji)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 99 14:15:03 -0700
Subject: hayagriva
Message-ID: <161227051232.23782.1862403962847143072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A PhD student at McGill University named Kamala Nayar has
recently completed her dissertation on Hayagriva.  Her
focus is on Vedanta Desika's Hayagriva-stotram, and also on the
Tiruvayintirapuram temple.

Regards,
Devesh Soneji
Faculty of Religious Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec
dsonej at po-box.mcgill.ca




From fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE  Thu Jul  8 22:41:43 1999
From: fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 99 23:41:43 +0100
Subject: World Skt Conf dates
Message-ID: <161227051234.23782.11958144170253320307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For most of this year I have been away from my regular postal address. The
secretaries in my department generally do a good job of forwarding the
important mail to my current address. In one case, however, they seem to
have committed an oversight. In a circular letter dated 28.04.99, Prof.
Colette Caillat (Treasurer, International Association of Sanskrit Studies,
Paris) wrote that the dates of the next World Sanskrit Conference to be
held in Turin (Italy) have been changed from 3-8 April 2000 to 9-15 April
2000. The letter came to my attention only today. In case there are others
who too are still going by the old dates, I thought I should publicize what
I have come to know. If my latest information also needs to be corrected,
those in the know should kindly correct me. -- ashok aklujkar




From arul_kumaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jul  9 11:26:52 1999
From: arul_kumaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (arul kumaresan)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 99 06:26:52 -0500
Subject: muraja drum
Message-ID: <161227051240.23782.10847279232728426858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Bharat Gupt wrote
>I do not know if the scholars you have named have written on the
>subject. My work has been mainly, rather entirely, based on the
>Sanskrit texts of the Natysastra. and the Valmikiya Ramayana and
>later musicological texts .
>[...]
>The date of NS is a big controversy.IT is a text that has grown over
>centuries but which lines/ portions are later  additions, is not
>possible to point out. The medieval texts describe the size and
>making of muraja. Muraj may have had a South Indian  origin  and
>could have been incorporated in the NS list of drums.


    muraja is an important drum attested early on. It is not
   restricted to South India alone. The incorporation of tamil
   muracam as sanskrit muraja from ancient times adds strength
   to the theory that once Dravidian was spoken widely in North India.
   Telugu has morayu as equivalent to ta. muracam.

   Another example from the music terms: Take muralI, muralIdhara,
   muralikrishna, etc.,  Compare with Tamil words, muralvu = soft
   sound, muralutal = to make sound, to sing, muraLi/murali =flute,
   pipe. Aapastamba zrautasuutra mentions Tamil lutes (Witzel,
   8-feb-96). Does any professional scholar work on Indian
   musicology/dramaturgy with good training in Tamil and Sanskrit
   texts?

  Regards,
  Arul


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Jul  9 09:57:57 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 99 10:57:57 +0100
Subject: Indology constraints (contd.)
In-Reply-To: <804a2e9d.24b550b0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227051236.23782.108140733620382371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

> A bureaucratic application of the 3 messages/day rule would result in
> a warning to him. It is because of situations like this, I dislike
> quotas.

No, actually there is no warning for this.  What happens is that only 3
messages get sent out; the fourth is held over to the next day.  I do not
consider this to be very damaging to intellectual life.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Jul  9 10:01:10 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 99 11:01:10 +0100
Subject: One Reference/Post Proposal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.05.9907072037080.4347-100000@hpc23.ac.iopb.res.in>
Message-ID: <161227051238.23782.14905568113001710813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Samar Abbas wrote:

> I hereby submit this proposal to Prof. Dominik Wujastyk and the list
> members for their kind perusal and comments as to its usefulness, and
> as to whether it sould be adopted or not.

Thanks for the suggestion, which has some merit.  However, it would
require a degree of policing (moderation) which I am neither able nor
willing to undertake.

DW

(PS I'm Doctor, not Professor.)
--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Jul  9 20:57:00 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 99 16:57:00 -0400
Subject: Lecture: Jeffrey Paine, author, "Father India"
Message-ID: <161227051249.23782.11532122329375159575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jeffrey Paine, author of:

Father India : How Encounters with an Ancient Culture Transformed the
Modern West
(Harper-Collins, 1998)

presents a lecture

sponsored by the Library of Congress, Office of Scholarly Programs
and Asian Division


Tuesday, July 13, 1999, 6:30 PM

Mumford Room, 6th Floor
Madison Building
Library of Congress

101 Independence Ave., SE
Washington, DC 20540

next to Capitol South Metro

for more information call 202-707-3302




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jul  9 23:19:23 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 99 23:19:23 +0000
Subject: muraja drum
Message-ID: <161227051246.23782.16006564961857133044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

arul kumaresan wrote:
>
> Dr. Bharat Gupt wrote
> >I do not know if the scholars you have named have written on the
> >subject. My work has been mainly, rather entirely, based on the
> >Sanskrit texts of the Natysastra. and the Valmikiya Ramayana and
> >later musicological texts .
> >[...]
> >The date of NS is a big controversy.IT is a text that has grown over
> >centuries but which lines/ portions are later  additions, is not
> >possible to point out. The medieval texts describe the size and
> >making of muraja. Muraj may have had a South Indian  origin  and
> >could have been incorporated in the NS list of drums.
>
>     muraja is an important drum attested early on. It is not
>    restricted to South India alone. The incorporation of tamil
>    muracam as sanskrit muraja from ancient times adds strength
>    to the theory that once Dravidian was spoken widely in North India.
>    Telugu has morayu as equivalent to ta. muracam.
>
>    Another example from the music terms: Take muralI, muralIdhara,
>    muralikrishna, etc.,  Compare with Tamil words, muralvu = soft
>    sound, muralutal = to make sound, to sing, muraLi/murali =flute,
>    pipe. Aapastamba zrautasuutra mentions Tamil lutes (Witzel,
>    8-feb-96). Does any professional scholar work on Indian
>    musicology/dramaturgy with good training in Tamil and Sanskrit
>    texts?
>
>   Regards,
>   Arul
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Prof. Arul comment are very illuminating, but not being a linguist I am not in a
position to say if mauraja gave rise to murucam or viceversa. However, one thing is
certain that the Natyasastra is the oldest musicological text available , even older
than the Valmikiya Ramayana as it is evident from the the oldest portions like the
Sunder and Yuddha Kandas that Valmiki was using Bharat Muni's terminology with a
musicological awareness. I have discussed it in detail in my publications. I am not in
a position to pronouce that Silapaddikaram is older than Valimiki, but the common
belief is that it is not. The NS has been considered a later texts by Keith and
scholars of that period purely for non-natya reasons, they presumed that drama had
a Greek origin and that no theoretical text of theatre could have preceded the
extant ancient Indian plays.

For a scholar who is familiar both with Sanskrit and Tamil music texts, please
contact Mr. R Ramanathan of MAdras Univ, Music Dept.
With regards,
Bharat Gupt
Assoc Professor, Delhi Univ.




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Sat Jul 10 08:31:44 1999
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 12:31:44 +0400
Subject: muraja drum
Message-ID: <161227051244.23782.11067217098905505278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On July 9 Arul Kumaresan wrote:

>   Does any professional scholar work on Indian
>   musicology/dramaturgy with good training in Tamil and Sanskrit
>   texts?

 I would advice you to get in touch with Prof. Alexander Dubiansky (Moscow)
who is 1. a specialist in Tamil Classical literature, 2. a sanskritist, 3.
a musicologist and 4. a musician himself. His Moscow University E-mail
address is
        dubian at iaas.msu.ru
All the best,
                                Yaroslav Vassilkov




From latapy at BONNIE.LIAFA.JUSSIEU.FR  Sat Jul 10 13:16:51 1999
From: latapy at BONNIE.LIAFA.JUSSIEU.FR (Mathieu Latapy)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 15:16:51 +0200
Subject: Mahabharata in Gandhara
In-Reply-To: <199907082259.AAA18986@isis.lip6.fr>
Message-ID: <161227051250.23782.14351997983914952357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear indologists,

I am currently looking for any information about
connections between Mahabharata and Gandharan art.
I would be peculiarly interested in representations
of some scenes of the Mahabharata in Gandhara, despite
the fact that I am not even sure they exist.

If some of you could indicate me an article on this
topic, or even simply show me a photograph of such
a representation, I would be deeply interested.

Best regards,
Magali Vacherot.
Univ. Paris IV - Sorbonne.




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jul 12 14:47:56 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 99 07:47:56 -0700
Subject: muraja drum
Message-ID: <161227051253.23782.2265643410820145401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Bharat Gupt <abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN> wrote:

> Prof. Arul comment are very illuminating, but not being a linguist I
> am not in a
> position to say if mauraja gave rise to murucam or viceversa.

It is worth considering the Tamil words "muzavam", "muzavu", and "muzA"
here.


Regards
Chandra
_________________________________________________________
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From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jul 12 21:43:09 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 99 14:43:09 -0700
Subject: birth of mAl
Message-ID: <161227051257.23782.1030113545228031551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM> wrote:

> Later, Mani Varadarajan asked about the parents of mAl. The following
> line
> explicitly says he does not have any.
>
> piRavAp piRappu ilai piRappittOr ilaiyE  (pari.3.72)
>

I am pasting here my earlier posting on this.

The commentator n.in2iyar seems to think that mAl was given birth
to as is evident from his commentary to  maturaik kAJci (one of the 10
"long poems" of cangkam era)
by poet mAGkuti marutan2 as advise to the Pandiyan emperor pANTiyan2
neTuJceziyan2.
stanzas: 590-591:
"
kaNam koL avuNar kaTanta polam koL
mAyOn2 mEya ONam nal nAL"
[maturaik kAJci: 590-591]

naccinArkkiniyar commentary:
says: "mEya = piRanta = born"
To quote the fuller context from his commentary:

"tiratciyaik koNTa avuNarai venRa
pon2n2Arc ceyta mAlaiyin2ai uTaiya
mAmaiyai uTaiyOn2 piRanta ONamAkiya nan2n2AL"

It is of course difficult to find any text  that directly says
mAl was given birth to.

Regards
Chandra










_________________________________________________________
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From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Jul 12 21:23:25 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 99 17:23:25 -0400
Subject: Some comments, answers,              and questions (was Re: Indology constraints (contd.))
Message-ID: <161227051255.23782.1397112970714804103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 7/9/99 5:00:02 AM Central Daylight Time, ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK
writes:

> No, actually there is no warning for this.  What happens is that only 3
>  messages get sent out; the fourth is held over to the next day.

Thanks for this clarification. Also, am I correct to understand that there
will be no warnings to a person as long as the limits - 2k typed-in
characters per message and 15 messages per month are not exceeded? It is only
when these are exceeded, the relative ranking will be used to issue warnings.
Right?

Messages could be kept off the list by appropriately using of the command
"review indology" to contact specific members if only the command would work
as described in the Indology web site. It does not seem to work now. One gets
the message, "You are not authorized to review the INDOLOGY list." Any idea
when it will be fixed?
-------
Sometime ago, M. M. Deshpande wrote, "I would appreciate any help in tracing
specific references in Tamil works to the inclusion of Maharashtra and
Gujarat among the five Dravidian regions." The following post-CT verse is
sometimes interpreted as referring to the five Dravidian regions.

tamiz maNTalam aintum tAviya jnAn2am
umizvatu pOla ulakam tirivAr
avizum man2amum em Ati aRivum
tamiz maNTalam aintum tattuvam AmE
-------
Later, Mani Varadarajan asked about the parents of mAl. The following line
explicitly says he does not have any.

piRavAp piRappu ilai piRappittOr ilaiyE  (pari.3.72)

This paripATal song revealing considerable Sanskritic influence is also very
important for pointing out zrIvaiSNavite, and zaivite hagiographies (and
secular Tamil scholars including G. Hart) are absolutely wrong in assigning a
low status for pANar, the bards. (See tiruppANAzvAr and tirunIlakaNTar
stories.) In the following line, viSNu is praised as pulavan2 and pANan2.
This line is not part of a section of nindAstuti  either.

tol iyal pulava nal yAz pANa (pari.3. 86)
-------
A final question.

In the Tamil tradition, AJjaneya is described as an expert in the grammar
Aindra. Do the Sanskrit texts mention anything like this?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From hart at POLBOX.COM  Tue Jul 13 08:10:26 1999
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 99 10:10:26 +0200
Subject: Indology constraints (contd.)
In-Reply-To: <19990712214309.6138.rocketmail@web704.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227051259.23782.6026893855018280943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As Indology participants cannot be expected  to know all Indian
languages, I think it would be good form if discutants always provided
quotations from original texts with translations. Tedious - maybe. But
certainly more educational.

>?From a recent posting (birth of mAl):

>To quote the fuller context from his commentary:
>
>"tiratciyaik koNTa avuNarai venRa
>pon2n2Arc ceyta mAlaiyin2ai uTaiya
>mAmaiyai uTaiyOn2 piRanta ONamAkiya nan2n2AL"

It's quite possible that the lines contain important information. How an
ignoramus like myself (I don't believe I am going to learn Tamil) would know
it?


Regards,

Artur Karp
University of Warsaw
Poland









------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] --------------
Uwaga: POPkarta o wartosci 50 zl. GRATIS.
Szczegoly: http://www.pop.centertel.pl/pop/promocja.html
--------------------------------------------------------




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Jul 13 09:10:35 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 99 10:10:35 +0100
Subject: Some comments, answers,              and questions (was Re: Indology constraints (contd.))
In-Reply-To: <6b9d4f46.24bbb6cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227051262.23782.7478705471097827145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

> Also, am I correct to understand that there will be no warnings to a
> person as long as the limits - 2k typed-in characters per message and
> 15 messages per month are not exceeded? It is only when these are
> exceeded, the relative ranking will be used to issue warnings. Right?

No, I sort the month's postings by size and then again by frequency.  In
each category I pick the top ten people, and they get a warning.

Logically, this could mean that INDOLOGY would eventually disappear
altogether (if people never heeded the warnings). Because this is silly, I
exercise some common sense about the warnings, and sometimes break my own
rules.

Last month, for example, three people got suspended even though they had
not received three warnings.  This was because they showed no evidence of
moderating the size or frequency of their postings after some warnings and
personal exchanges with me, and in fact increased them.

So: I have laid down general guidelines, but I reserve the right as list
manager to manage the list as I see fit, within these general parameters,
but with exceptions in exceptional cases.

> Messages could be kept off the list by appropriately using of the
> command "review indology" to contact specific members if only the
> command would work as described in the Indology web site. It does not
> seem to work now. One gets the message, "You are not authorized to
> review the INDOLOGY list." Any idea when it will be fixed? -------

Ah, I must update the web page. [... done]

That Hungarian website which started posting email to us all, based on the
membership list, showed up a vulnerability in the INDOLOGY list.  I
thought members should be protected from having their addresses used by
unscrupulous members of the public.  So the "review indology" command has
regrettably been withdrawn.

You suggest that I should write to individual members and remonstrate with
them about their postings.  This breaks the rule I keep mentioning, which
is that I can't devote my whole working day to running INDOLOGY.  I have
to find efficient ways of coping with the list, which do not involve the
kind of labour-intensive interaction you suggest.  Having said that, I do
in fact sometimes correspond off-list with members on various topics.  It
has been my experience that asking people to change their posting habits
is singularly useless.  They simply don't.  And for every message I send
to an individual member I get a reply or two or three which it is a burden
to deal with. (Even when it is courteous.)

Yours,
--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list




From David.Jonsson at DJK.SE  Tue Jul 13 13:06:12 1999
From: David.Jonsson at DJK.SE (David Jonsson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 99 14:06:12 +0100
Subject: The Bhagavata by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.10.9907130952290.322-100000@c0459.wellcome.ac.u k>
Message-ID: <161227051266.23782.11296407612643732196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Were can this book be found? I would prefer to download it from the Internet.

David




From d.smith at LANCASTER.AC.UK  Tue Jul 13 13:08:49 1999
From: d.smith at LANCASTER.AC.UK (Smith, David J)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 99 14:08:49 +0100
Subject: e-mail address for Yuko Yokochi
Message-ID: <161227051264.23782.2236133753129507568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am seeking an e-mail address for Yuko Yokochi. Thanks.

David Smith   Reader in Indian Religions
Dept of Religious Studies   Lancaster University   Lancaster LA1 4YG UK
(tel)  +44 1524 592411
(fax) +44 1524 847039




From yanom at KSUVX0.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP  Tue Jul 13 14:03:55 1999
From: yanom at KSUVX0.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP (Michio Yano)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 99 23:03:55 +0900
Subject: e-mail address for Yuko Yokochi
Message-ID: <161227051268.23782.4645142899161315424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yuko Yokochi's e-mail address is
yokochi at infra.kochi-tech.ac.jp

Michio Yano
Kyoto Sangyo University
yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Jul 14 09:55:21 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 99 10:55:21 +0100
Subject: Blood circulation
In-Reply-To: <000d01bec7f6$dfdae720$c9026b83@prakash>
Message-ID: <161227051270.23782.12617995856898485202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just for interest, the full text of William Harvey's _De Modu Cordis_ (in
English translation) is available here:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1628harvey-blood.html

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dr Dominik Wujastyk,                FAX:        +44 171 611 8545
Wellcome Institute for              URL:        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/
  the History of Medicine,          Email:      d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road,    Trust URL:  http://www.wellcome.ac.uk
London NW1 2BE, England.




From latapy at BONNIE.LIAFA.JUSSIEU.FR  Fri Jul 16 11:55:21 1999
From: latapy at BONNIE.LIAFA.JUSSIEU.FR (Mathieu Latapy)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 99 13:55:21 +0200
Subject: Mahabharata, Signs of the Zodiac, Moon god
In-Reply-To: <199907142300.BAA03818@isis.lip6.fr>
Message-ID: <161227051272.23782.9441257948050752919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

I am looking for bibliographical references, images, or even
a piece of advice, about these different subjects :

- The iconography of the Mahabharata.

- The representations of the signs of the zodiac, peculiarly
  in the art of Gandhara.

- The iconography of the Moon-god in the art of Gandhara.

Thanks in advance,

                         Magali Vacherot.




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Fri Jul 16 19:33:48 1999
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 99 15:33:48 -0400
Subject: email addresses?
Message-ID: <161227051274.23782.2554914488777612387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Would appreciate if anyone knows the email addresses of Bertil Tikkanen
and Parameshwara Aithal.  thanks.
                                        Madhav Deshpande




From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jul 16 22:28:47 1999
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 99 18:28:47 -0400
Subject: email addresses?
Message-ID: <161227051276.23782.12449167096093305146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Parameshwara Aithal

b56 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de

--- Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at UMICH.EDU> wrote:
> Would appreciate if anyone knows the email addresses
> of Bertil Tikkanen
> and Parameshwara Aithal.  thanks.
>                                         Madhav
> Deshpande
>

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jul 17 11:51:38 1999
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 99 04:51:38 -0700
Subject: Dakshinamurti and Nataraja
Message-ID: <161227051284.23782.16520337989580859183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ref: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/palaniappan-patanjali.html,
Madurai and Chidambaram: The Tamil Cities that created Important
Sanskrit Myths.

  >>competition between Pandyas of Madurai and the Pallavas/Cholas
  >>associated with Chidambaram, [...]
  >>It was not that Chidambaram alone tried to emulate Madurai.
  >>Madurai did reverse too.

        {See the 9-10th century Chola bronze from PoruppumETTupaTTi
        in Madurai district. A beautiful masterpiece of NaTarAja
        where the *right* leg is lifted up (kunchita pAdam).
        Even though Cholas were in control of Pandyan Madurai then,
        they pay respects to the native tradition by casting NaTarAja
        in the local tradition, opposite of the Chidambaram mode.

        Additionally, the five sabhas where Nataraja dances -
        there is only one in Pallava area (AlaGkADu),
        only the Chidambaram in Chola terrain, But *three*
        dance halls in Pandya country! - silver hall at Madurai,
        copper hall in Nelveli, and citra hall at Potiyil (kuRRAlam)
        shows adapting Dance motifs of Chidambaram.}

Shiva dancing in the Madurai temple silver hall appears
in Cilappatikaaram (5th cent. CE) pAyiram(foreword).

    "atirAc ciRappin2 maturai mUtUr
     kon2raiyam caTaimuTi man2Rap potiyilil
     veLLi ampalattu naLLiruT kiTantEn2"

Sambandhar from the Choladesham, in the 7th century, sings
about Madurai Shiva dancing vigourously. While Chidambaram
absorbed certain aspects of Daxinamurti, Madurai takes on
the Dance motifs of Nataraja as well.

     "mutirunIrc caTaimuTi mutalva, nI muzaGkazal
      atiravIci ATuvAy - azakan2 nI, puyaGkan2 nI,
      maturan2 nI, maNALan2 nI, maturai AlavAyilAy!
      caturan2 nI, caturmukan2 kapAlam Ettu campuvE!"



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sat Jul 17 11:15:10 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 99 12:15:10 +0100
Subject: Gatekeeper gods; Skanda in Buddhism
In-Reply-To: <v04010500b3b5c5558075@ppp.bekkoame.ne.jp>
Message-ID: <161227051280.23782.659395864670691385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 17 Jul 1999, Nobumi Iyanaga wrote:

> There are also some dhaara.nii suutra, in which Skanda is named among
> a group of demons who make children ill; but this Skanda is a bad
> demon, not the good protector of the Law like the Chinese "Weituo"...

The Skanda who makes children ill is described in the uttaratantra of the
Susrutasamhita, and also in the Revatikhanda of the Kasyapasamhita.  The
latter text is translated and discussed in my book _The Roots of Ayurveda_
(Delhi: Penguin, 1998).  I have also discussed the subject of Skanda and
demonic attack in the medical context in two articles recently.

Dominik Wujastyk, "Demons of disease", in _Holistic Health and Medicine_
(Calicut: Univ. of Calicut and Arya Vaidya Sala, 1998). [These details may
not be perfect; I'm doing it from memory.]

--- , "Miscarriages of justice: demonic vengeance in classical Indian
medicine", in _Religion, health, and suffering_, edited by John Hinnells
and Roy Porter (London, New York: Kegan Paul International, 1999).

All the best,
Dominik

--
Dr Dominik Wujastyk,                FAX:        +44 171 611 8545
Wellcome Institute for              URL:        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/
  the History of Medicine,          Email:      d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road,    Trust URL:  http://www.wellcome.ac.uk
London NW1 2BE, England.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sat Jul 17 11:25:59 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 99 12:25:59 +0100
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227051281.23782.13140638727058674103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have registered a new domain for INDOLOGY, so that the web pages of the
group can be reached more easily and conveniently.

Instead of having to remember

   http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html

you can now find the exact same website via

   http://indology.findhere.com

The latter site automatically redirects you to the former one, so there is
no difference in the end result.  But "indology.findhere.com" is much
easier to remember!

This is somewhat experimental, so please report any unexpected experiences
to the list.

Thank you,

Dominik




From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP  Sat Jul 17 08:35:27 1999
From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 99 17:35:27 +0900
Subject: Gatekeeper gods; Skanda in Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227051278.23782.3891341527938105906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

I am doing some research on the figure of Skand in far eastern Buddhism.
Related to this, I have some questions:

1.  I read in W. Doniger O'Flaherty, "The Myths Depicted at Elephanta", in
_Elephanta. The Cave of Shiva_, Photographs by Carmel Berkson, Essays by W.
Doniger O'Flaherty, G. Michell and Carmel Berkson, Princeton Univ. Press,
Princeton, 1983, p. 30, that Ga.ne"sa and Karttikeya are door-keepers at the
east wing shrine of Elephanta.  Do these two gods often serve as gatekeepers
in Hindu (or probably "Saiva) temples?  Is it possible to say that they form
a couple in the function of gatekeeper?  -- And more generally, is there any
good study on the gatekeeper gods in Hindu temples that you would recommend?

2.  I read in Phyllis Granoff, "Tobatsu Bishamon : Three Japanese Statues in
the United States and an Outline of the Rise of this Cult in East Asia",
East and West, New Series, vol. 20, 1-2, Roma, mars-juin 1970, p. 149 (and
n. 17) and fig. 10, that there is a Gandharian statue from Kaafir Ko.t which
represents "probably" Skanda (a statue which is now in the British Museum: a
standing male god, clad in the long skirted Central Asian armour, with two
crossed swords at the waist and a long spear at the right hand, holding a
bird [?] in the left hand).  The author refers to A. Foucher, L'Art
greco-bouddhique du Gandhaara, II, Paris, 1918, p. 123 and fig. 373, in
which this statue is "incorrectly identified as Paa~ncika".  Can I say that
the identification of this statue as Skanda is assured?  Is there any other
Gandharian representation(s) of Skanda in similar clothes -- which may be
very close to the representation of Paa~ncika or Vai"srava.na?

3.  More generally, is there any reference to Skanda in Indian (Sanskrit)
Buddhist texts?  -- I know that in the Chinese translation(s) of the
Suvar.na-prabhaasa suutra, there are some references to a god named Weituo;
scholars generally consider this name as an incorrect transliteration of
Skanda (it should have been something like "Jiantuo").  But it seems that
the Sanskrit text at this passage is lacking (I learned this just some days
ago from Mr. Robert M Gimello in another mailing list).  The name "Weituo"
(or rather "Jiantuo") may be a transliteration of "Skandha" as well (there
seems to be a reference to a yak.sa named "Kharaskandha" in the
Suvar.na-prabhaasa suutra).  There are also some dhaara.nii suutra, in which
Skanda is named among a group of demons who make children ill; but this
Skanda is a bad demon, not the good protector of the Law like the Chinese
"Weituo"...

Thank you in advance for any thought.

Best regards,

Nobumi Iyanaga
Tokyo,
Japan




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 18 01:47:56 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 99 18:47:56 -0700
Subject: Gatekeeper gods; Skanda in Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227051286.23782.3864060067387663992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>1.  I read in W. Doniger O'Flaherty, "The Myths Depicted at Elephanta", in
>_Elephanta. The Cave of Shiva_, Photographs by Carmel Berkson, Essays by W.
>Doniger O'Flaherty, G. Michell and Carmel Berkson, Princeton Univ. Press,
>Princeton, 1983, p. 30, that Ga.ne"sa and Karttikeya are door-keepers at
>the
>east wing shrine of Elephanta.

Ganesha and Karttikeya in the said Elephanta cave are found flanking the
seven mothers, and are on the same wall. It is not a shrine to the mothers
with the two sons as door-keepers. The entire sculpture seems to have been
conceived as one whole. In many other sculptures of the seven mothers, the
two sons are also depicted, the reason being to highlight the benign nature
of the mothers instead of the ferocious. This is a different function than
that of gatekeepers.

Vidyasankar


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Sun Jul 18 15:19:24 1999
From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 99 17:19:24 +0200
Subject: bRhadAranyaka
Message-ID: <161227051288.23782.379070738274567298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Claude Setzer,
I would like to order the full set of your texts including
Caraka. Am I right in calculating the sum to 110 $?
Please send the CD with bill addressed to

Institut fuer Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte
Koenigin-Luise-Str. 34a
D-14195 Berlin
Germany
(my name should not occur in the bill header)
Thanks,
Harry Falk


Claude Setzer schrieb:
>
> Dear David,
>
> I have the following available on CD, both in Devanagari and in 8-bit
> Transliteration. The license fee is $100 for single user including some very
> nice true type fonts. If you get a more extensive set of fonts you also get
> first 80 chapters of Caraka both for total of $5 extra. There is $5 charge
> for shipping and handling. These were all typed in independently of other
> texts you may have seen on the web. They are directly as printed, with no
> "editing."
>
> sincerely,
>
> Claude Setzer  cssetzer at mum.edu
>
> (About 28MB total when in Microsoft Word format)
> Rig Veda  (1.54 MB)
> Yajur Veda Mantra SaMhitaa  (0.0945MB)
> Ashtangha Hridayama  (0.942MB)
> Bhava Prakasha  (1.39MB)
> Galita Prakasha  (0.161MB)
> Darshanas: (combined size = 0.523 MB including references)
>      (These are not complete at this point, and not available in all fonts.)
> Nyaya  (0.089MB)
>       Vaisheshika (0.097MB)
>       Sankhya  (0.064MB)
>       Yoga   (0.015MB)
>       Karma Mimansa   (0.223MB)
>       Vedanta (.035MB)
> Madhava Nidanam  (0.191KB)
> Ramayana     (5.367MB)
> Mahabharata  (8.856MB)
> Narada Purana  (2.03MB)
> Padma Purana  (5.25MB)
> Sharngdhara Samhita  (0.447MB)
> Sushruta Samhita (0.986MB) [small section at the end is missing]
> Upanishads:  (0.3MB)
> Isavasyopanishat
> Kenopanishat
> Kathopanishat
> Prashnopanishat
> Mundakopanishat
> Mandukyopanishat
> Taittiriyopanishat
> Aitareyopanishat (Ityaitareyopanishat)
> Chandogyopanishat (Chandoyopanishat)
> Brihadaranyakopanishat
> Shvetashvataropanishat
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Scarbrough <scarbro at CROSSLINK.NET>
> To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 3:57 AM
> Subject: bRhadAranyaka
>
> > Has anyone come across the bRhadAranyaka upanishhat in electronic form
> > for doing a word search?
> > Thanks in advance.
> > David.
> >




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jul 19 12:18:38 1999
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 05:18:38 -0700
Subject: Gatekeeper gods; Skanda in Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227051293.23782.8748074187870864032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

[3.  More generally, is there any reference to Skanda in Indian (Sanskrit)
Buddhist texts?  -- I know that in the Chinese
translation(s) of the Suvar.na-prabhaasa suutra, there are some
references to a god named Weituo; scholars generally consider this
name as an incorrect transliteration of Skanda (it should have been
something like "Jiantuo").  But it seems that the Sanskrit text at
this passage is lacking (I learned this just some days
ago from Mr. Robert M Gimello in another mailing list).
The name "Weituo" (or rather "Jiantuo") may be a transliteration of
"Skandha" as well (there
seems to be a reference to a yak.sa named "Kharaskandha" in the
Suvar.na-prabhaasa suutra). ]



   Does Weituo or Jiantuo in Chinese mean some thing like
  "the one with a spear" or "the beautiful god"?

   Regards,
   V. Iyer


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU  Mon Jul 19 09:44:46 1999
From: jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 05:44:46 -0400
Subject: Gatekeeper gods; Skanda in Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227051289.23782.15156043785728394291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See the account of Skandha's birth in the Mahabharata at MBh 3.207-221,
especially 3.219 (van Buitenen, vol. 2:  657-9), where Skandha gives his
"Mothers" (the divorced wives of the seers) the right to afflict children
until they are 16 years old.  A graha ("Grasper," "Grabber") then emerges
from Skandha's body to afflict the young.  A number of other grahas are
enumerated in 3.219.

There is an allusion to the idea that the young are subject to various
grahas at MBh 11.4.6, following a brief description of gestation.

Jim Fitzgerald

> 3.  More generally, is there any reference to Skanda in Indian (Sanskrit)
> Buddhist texts?

> There are also some dhaara.nii suutra, in which
> Skanda is named among a group of demons who make children ill; but this
> Skanda is a bad demon, not the good protector of the Law like the Chinese
> "Weituo"...
>




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Mon Jul 19 11:46:38 1999
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 14:46:38 +0300
Subject: email addresses?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.9907161532270.26300-100000@battlezone.rs.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227051291.23782.18358868191213723966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Would appreciate if anyone knows the email addresses of Bertil Tikkanen
>and Parameshwara Aithal.  thanks.
>                                        Madhav Deshpande

In principle, everybody working at the University of Helsinki has the same
simple type of address, which in this case will be
Bertil.Tikkanen at Helsinki.Fi. If this does not work, I can always forward a
message to Bertil (with whom I am sharing an office). But during July it is
very difficult to reach anybody in Finland as this is the major holiday
season (I am myself here for the first time after more than two weeks).

Regards

Klaus


Klaus Karttunen
Institute for Asian and African Studies
Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jul 19 22:15:48 1999
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 15:15:48 -0700
Subject: Gatekeeper gods; Skanda in Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227051301.23782.17986908670948806853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>Yes, I think you are right.  I read again the passage of Wendy
Doniger, who write: Two of the figures in the east wing shrine are
sons of Shiva who are doorkeepers: Ganesha [Pl. 13] and Karttikeya
(or Skanda) [Pl. 14].  They flank the central shrines as their
stories flank his; they are outgrowths  of him, literally and
symbolically...
I would say that I probably misunderstood the meaning of this passage;
the author does not say that these two sons of "Siva are in function
of doorkeepers specifically *there*, at that place of east wing
shrine of Elephanta; she only says that (in general) these two gods
may be in function of doorkeeper in some myths or occasions.
But while I know that Ga.ne"sa, Nandin, Viiraka, are doorkeepers in
some myths, I know of no myth in which Skand serves as a doorkeeper.
  Is there any such myth?
On the other hand, I would like to know if at the entrance of Hindu
("Saiva) temples, one or the other of these two gods (Ga.ne"sa and/or
Skanda) serve as gatekeeper. >>

Dear Ms. Iyanaga,

As far as I know, no Skanda image or myth as door-keeper of Shiva.
Doniger must have used it metaphorically. That's all.
Atleast in Hindu caves or books; There are many Gupta
images of Shiva where both Ganesha and Skanda are depicted
on the sides - but they aren't door-keepers. Of course, Skanda is a
guardian deity from the Mahayana phase of Sri Lanka, Eg., in the
Tooth temple.

Indeed, the seven mothers with Skanda and Ganesha are rare,
whereas Ganesa and Shiva on the sides of the mothers are much more
common. On Skanda's antiquity, please see the latest issue
of J. Inst. Asian Studies (Chennai/Madras) where
Iravatham Mahadevan has an article on Murukan in Indus culture.
This was originally presented as a paper in the recent conference on
Skanda-Murukan held at IAS in Dec. 1998.

Regards,
V. Iyer




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Mon Jul 19 12:21:56 1999
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 15:21:56 +0300
Subject: New book
In-Reply-To: <l03102801b3b8ea300fb6@[128.214.63.32]>
Message-ID: <161227051295.23782.716297419920377699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Asko Parpola asked me to forward this to the list:

From: Asko Parpola <parpola at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
Subject: Book on FAMILY & KINSHIP
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 23:06:03 +0900

> The following publication may be of interest to some subscribers of
> the list:
>
>   CHANGING PATTERNS OF FAMILY AND KINSHIP IN SOUTH ASIA
>
>   Proceedings of an International Symposium on the occasion of the 50th
>   Anniversary of India's Independence held at the University of Helsinki
>   6 May 1998.
>
>   Edited by Asko Parpola & Sirpa Tenhunen.
>
>   Studia Orientalia, Vol. 84. 1998.
>   Helsinki: The Finnish Oriental Society.
>
>   pp. ix, 314 pp., ill. Pb 150 FIM (about 27 US Dollars)
>   ISSN  0039-3282
>   ISBN  951-9380-38-8
>
>   Distributor:  Tiedekirja, Kirkkokatu 14, 00170 Helsinki, Finland
>   Tel. +358-9-635177
>   Fax: +358-9-635017
>   e-mail: tiedekirja at pp.kolumbus.fi
>
>   in addition to the book price,
>   packing and postage e.g. to the United States:
>   35 FIM (about 6,25 US Dollars) if paid by credit card
>       (VISA, Mastercard/Eurocard),
>   100 FIM (about 18 US Dollars) if paid by cheque
>
>   CONTENTS
>
>   Foreword  (pp. v-vii)
>
>   DON HANDELMAN, Husband and Wife and the Game of Dice:
>   Siva and Parvati Fall Apart  (pp. 1-10)
>
>   VIRPI H"AMEEN-ANTTILA, "For Ever Thou Shalt Love and She Be Fair":
>   Kalidasa's Vision of the Ideal Marriage  (pp. 11-29)
>
>   KLAUS KARTTUNEN, Mutual Agreement or Auction of Brides:
>   Ancient Indian Marriage in Greek Accounts  (pp. 31-37)
>
>   LINA FRUZZETTI & 'AKOS "OST"OR, Hierarchy Revisited (pp. 39-50)
>
>   HELI UUSIKYL"A, The Seeds in the Container:
>   Metaphors of Conception and Kinship in Rural Bangladesh (pp. 51-59)
>
>   MINNA S"A"AV"AL"A, The 'Hindu Joint Family': Past and Present (pp. 61-73)
>
>   SIRPA TENHUNEN, Urban Hierarchies in Flux:
>   Arranged Intercaste Marriages in Calcutta (pp. 75-85)
>
>   G. GOPINATHAN, The Process of Rehumanisation Initiated by Sri Narayana Guru
>   and Its Impact on Kinship and Other Social Relationships in Kerala
>   (pp. 87-109)
>
>   MOHAN K. GAUTAM, Santal-Munda Kinship and Family (pp. 111-127)
>
>   ANTTI PAKASLAHTI, Family-centered Treatment of Mental Health Problems
>   at the Balaji Temple in Rajasthan  (pp. 129-168)
>
>   ASKO PARPOLA, Savitri and Resurrection:
>   The Ideal of Devoted Wife, Her Forehead Mark, Sati, and Human Sacrifice
>   in Epic-Puranic, Vedic, Harappan-Dravidian and Near Eastern Perspectives
>   (pp. 167-312)
>
>   List of Contributors  (pp. 313-314)
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Asko Parpola
>
> Feb-Dec 1999:
> Institute for Research in Humanities
> Kyoto University
> Ushinomiya, Yoshida, Sakyo-ku
> Kyoto 606-8501 Japan
> tel. +81-75-753-6942
> fax. +81-75-753-6903
> e-mail: parpola at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp
>
>


Klaus Karttunen
Institute for Asian and African Studies
Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jul 19 17:50:13 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 19:50:13 +0200
Subject: Genealogy
Message-ID: <161227051297.23782.11514254514772015135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the list,

a friend of mine, who is a leading member of the Norwegian Genealogical Society
and an historian with interests in personal history/biography, genealogy,
family history, vexilology, sfragistics and heraldry, is looking for
institutions or societies in South Asia and Iran which specialize in such
studies with the objective of establishing an exchange of, or subscriptions to,
journals within these fields.

If any of you have any suggestions, please send them directly to Mr. Vigerust
personally at

Tore Hermundsson Vigerust [toreher at online.no]


Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP  Mon Jul 19 17:59:33 1999
From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 02:59:33 +0900
Subject: Gatekeeper gods; Skanda in Buddhism
In-Reply-To: <19990719121838.3187.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227051299.23782.1630031282177994710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Wujastyk,
Dear Mr. Fitzgerald,

Thank you very much for your replies and for the references on Skanda as
demon sending disease to children.

=======

Dear Mr. Sundaresan

Thank you very much for your reply.

At 6:47 PM -0700 7/17/99, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:
>
> Ganesha and Karttikeya in the said Elephanta cave are found flanking the
> seven mothers, and are on the same wall. It is not a shrine to the mothers
> with the two sons as door-keepers. The entire sculpture seems to have been
> conceived as one whole. In many other sculptures of the seven mothers, the
> two sons are also depicted, the reason being to highlight the benign nature
> of the mothers instead of the ferocious. This is a different function than
> that of gatekeepers.

Yes, I think you are right.  I read again the passage of Wendy Doniger, who
write:

  Two of the figures in the east wing shrine are sons of Shiva who are
  doorkeepers: Ganesha [Pl. 13] and Karttikeya (or Skanda) [Pl. 14].  They
  flank the central shrines as their stories flank his; they are outgrowths
  of him, literally and symbolically...

I would say that I probably misunderstood the meaning of this passage; the
author does not say that these two sons of "Siva are in function of
doorkeepers specifically *there*, at that place of east wing shrine of
Elephanta; she only says that (in general) these two gods may be in function
of doorkeeper in some myths or occasions.

But while I know that Ga.ne"sa, Nandin, Viiraka, are doorkeepers in some
myths, I know of no myth in which Skand serves as a doorkeeper.  Is there
any such myth?

On the other hand, I would like to know if at the entrance of Hindu ("Saiva)
temples, one or the other of these two gods (Ga.ne"sa and/or Skanda) serve
as gatekeeper.

Thank you in advance!

=========

Dear Mr. Iyer,

Thank you for your reply.

At 5:18 AM -0700 7/19/99, Venkatraman Iyer wrote:
>
>    Does Weituo or Jiantuo in Chinese mean some thing like
>   "the one with a spear" or "the beautiful god"?
>

Well, "Weituo" and "Jiantuo" are *transliterations*, meaning that they are
supposed to transpose the *pronunciation* of Skanda (or Skandha?) in
Chinese, and not at all its meaning.

Of course, you may be surprised that such syllables may reproduce in any way
the pronunciation of Skand[h]a.  As to the "Weituo", I think (with other
scholars) that it is a result of a mistake of scribe -- normally, these two
syllables can be a transliteration of Veda, but not of Skand[h]a.  As the
first character, "wei" can be very similar to another character which is
pronounced "jian", I think the original should have been "Jiantuo".  Now,
the modern pronunciation of "Jiantuo" may be something like "Chi-en-do" (as
this is pronounced in English), but the older pronunciation would have been
something like "ken-da" (I am not sure at all as to the old Chinese
pronunciation; the Japanese pronunciation is "ken-da", and Japanese
pronunciations often are close to older Chinese pronunciation).  Now, as
every Chinese character has a vowel, the first part of a sequence of two
consonants (like "sk...") is often omitted in transliterations.  I mean, if
the pronunciation "Skand[h]a" may be transliterated as "Seu-ken-da" with
three characters, or the first character can be omitted, so that it becomes
"Ken-da".  -- Please note that I have no special knowledge as to Chinese
linguistics or the theory of Chinese transliterations of Sanskrit words, so
all I write here may be not very accurate.  But I hope that this is better
than nothing.

Best regards to all!

Nobumi Iyanaga
Tokyo,
Japan




From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA  Tue Jul 20 11:22:51 1999
From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 07:22:51 -0400
Subject: Gatekeepers
Message-ID: <161227051305.23782.17265475068001802158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Gatekeeprs or dvarpalas are ordinary humans while dikpalas or guardians of the cardinal directions are semi-divine beings. Neither Ganesha nor Skanda perform this functions.

Harsha V. Dehejia

 


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From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA  Tue Jul 20 12:37:05 1999
From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 08:37:05 -0400
Subject: Ganesha as Gatekeeper.
Message-ID: <161227051309.23782.10298077431374396840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Parvati has the privilege to appoint Ganesha as her gatekeeper while she was at her bath. We humans, whether it is for our temples or havelis, do not qualify to recruit Ganesha for that duty!


Harsha V. Dehejia

.



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From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Tue Jul 20 11:51:40 1999
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 12:51:40 +0100
Subject: Gatekeepers
In-Reply-To: <000701bed2a2$387cf200$0cf87586@hdehejia>
Message-ID: <161227051307.23782.13005303081531462771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>     Gatekeeprs or dvarpalas are ordinary humans  while dikpalas or
>guardians of the cardinal directions are semi-divine beings.  Neither
>Ganesha nor Skanda perform this functions.   Harsha V.  Dehejia
>

This may be true for Skanda, but it is certainly not true for GaNeza. The
gods have also their dvArapAlas, and the myth (ZivapurANa) tells that
PArvatI created Ganesha as her gate-keeper (as such he is beheaded when
trying to prevent Shiva from entering PArvatI's appartments). See S.A.
Dange, article "GaNeza" in Encyclopaedia of Puranic Beliefs and Pratices,
Vol. II, 1987. p.582. GaNeza is thus a prototype of a gate-keeper, quite
naturally, because he is the Lord of Obstacles (Vighnezvara). See also Paul
B. Courtright's monography "GaNeza: Lord of Obstacles, Lord of Beginnings",
New York, 1985.

G.v.Simson




From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP  Tue Jul 20 10:33:23 1999
From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 19:33:23 +0900
Subject: Gatekeeper gods; Skanda in Buddhism
In-Reply-To: <19990719221548.31391.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227051303.23782.17997402147371027617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Iyer,

Thank you very much for your reply.

At 3:15 PM -0700 7/19/99, Venkatraman Iyer wrote:
>
> Dear Ms. Iyanaga,
>
> As far as I know, no Skanda image or myth as door-keeper of Shiva.
> Doniger must have used it metaphorically. That's all.
> Atleast in Hindu caves or books; There are many Gupta
> images of Shiva where both Ganesha and Skanda are depicted
> on the sides - but they aren't door-keepers. Of course, Skanda is a
> guardian deity from the Mahayana phase of Sri Lanka, Eg., in the
> Tooth temple.
>

Ah, that is interesting.  What do you call "the Mahayana phase of Sri
Lanka"?  Is this some modern development, perhaps under Japanese
influence...?
And is the "Tooth temple" a Buddhist temple where some relic of Buddha's
tooth is kept?

There is a famous Japanese medieval legend in which Ida-ten (a Sino-Japanese
Buddhist deity who is very probably a continuation of Skanda) is said to
have taken back a relic of Buddha's tooth which had been stolen by two
yak.sa just after the nirvaa.na of the Buddha...

> Indeed, the seven mothers with Skanda and Ganesha are rare,
> whereas Ganesa and Shiva on the sides of the mothers are much more
> common. On Skanda's antiquity, please see the latest issue
> of J. Inst. Asian Studies (Chennai/Madras) where
> Iravatham Mahadevan has an article on Murukan in Indus culture.
> This was originally presented as a paper in the recent conference on
> Skanda-Murukan held at IAS in Dec. 1998.
>

Thank you very much for this valuable information.

Best regards,

Nobumi Iyanaga
Tokyo,
Japan




From cssetzer at MUM.EDU  Wed Jul 21 02:02:54 1999
From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 21:02:54 -0500
Subject: bRhadAranyaka
Message-ID: <161227051312.23782.8772960751357218321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Harry,

I have attached several files that should address all your questions. I hope
you can print out the invoice and submit it there.


Thanks for your order,

Claude

> I would like to order the full set of your texts including
> Caraka. Am I right in calculating the sum to 110 $?

YES.

> Institut fuer Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte
> Koenigin-Luise-Str. 34a
> D-14195 Berlin
> Germany
> (my name should not occur in the bill header)
> Thanks,
> Harry Falk
>
>
> Claude Setzer schrieb:
> >
> > Dear David,
> >
> > I have the following available on CD, both in Devanagari and in 8-bit
> > Transliteration. The license fee is $100 for single user including some
very
> > nice true type fonts. If you get a more extensive set of fonts you also
get
> > first 80 chapters of Caraka both for total of $5 extra. There is $5
charge
> > for shipping and handling. These were all typed in independently of
other
> > texts you may have seen on the web. They are directly as printed, with
no
> > "editing."
> >
> > sincerely,
> >
> > Claude Setzer  cssetzer at mum.edu
> >
> > (About 28MB total when in Microsoft Word format)
> > Rig Veda  (1.54 MB)
> > Yajur Veda Mantra SaMhitaa  (0.0945MB)
> > Ashtangha Hridayama  (0.942MB)
> > Bhava Prakasha  (1.39MB)
> > Galita Prakasha  (0.161MB)
> > Darshanas: (combined size = 0.523 MB including references)
> >      (These are not complete at this point, and not available in all
fonts.)
> > Nyaya  (0.089MB)
> >       Vaisheshika (0.097MB)
> >       Sankhya  (0.064MB)
> >       Yoga   (0.015MB)
> >       Karma Mimansa   (0.223MB)
> >       Vedanta (.035MB)
> > Madhava Nidanam  (0.191KB)
> > Ramayana     (5.367MB)
> > Mahabharata  (8.856MB)
> > Narada Purana  (2.03MB)
> > Padma Purana  (5.25MB)
> > Sharngdhara Samhita  (0.447MB)
> > Sushruta Samhita (0.986MB) [small section at the end is missing]
> > Upanishads:  (0.3MB)
> > Isavasyopanishat
> > Kenopanishat
> > Kathopanishat
> > Prashnopanishat
> > Mundakopanishat
> > Mandukyopanishat
> > Taittiriyopanishat
> > Aitareyopanishat (Ityaitareyopanishat)
> > Chandogyopanishat (Chandoyopanishat)
> > Brihadaranyakopanishat
> > Shvetashvataropanishat
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: David Scarbrough <scarbro at CROSSLINK.NET>
> > To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> > Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 3:57 AM
> > Subject: bRhadAranyaka
> >
> > > Has anyone come across the bRhadAranyaka upanishhat in electronic form
> > > for doing a word search?
> > > Thanks in advance.
> > > David.
> > >
>
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From cssetzer at MUM.EDU  Wed Jul 21 02:05:37 1999
From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 21:05:37 -0500
Subject: bRhadAranyaka
Message-ID: <161227051315.23782.3410187947707061420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry for accidental posting of private reply to Harry Falk.

Claude




From arul_kumaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jul 21 16:41:49 1999
From: arul_kumaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (arul kumaresan)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 99 11:41:49 -0500
Subject: Gatekeeper gods; Skanda in Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227051318.23782.6563189485254103221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<<  There are also some dhaara.nii suutra, in which
Skanda is named among a group of demons who make children ill;
but this Skanda is a bad demon, not the good protector of the Law
like the Chinese "Weituo"... >>>

Ancient Tamil literature does not call Murukan (later identified
with Skanda, Subrahmanya) as the producer of childhood diseases;
On the other hand, Classical Tamil love poems, which are somewhat
like Manyoshu, (see T. Takahashi's book) has a routine motif:
Velan, (vElan = the one with a spear, the male
priest of Skanda) is called into the house. Parents, unaware
of their little girl's love-sickness, arrange the shamanistic
ritual by Velan priest. A spear is placed vertically on a
clean yard, the fresh blood from a ram is mixed with rice
and strewn around, the priest in trance drives away the ghosts
affecting the kid, ...  This >2000year-old ritual survives
in remote Kerala villages. P. L. Samy, I.A.S. has an excellent
article on this "Velan ATTam".

The famous saint Kumaraguruparar was deaf and mute, his parents
take him to Tiruchendur where he is cured by Murukan and becomes
one of the greatest poets later. On Skanda:
1) K. Zvelebil, Tamil traditions on Subrahmanya-Murugan,
Inst. of Asian studies, Madras, 1991
2) A. Parpola, "Evidence for Harappan worship of the god Muruku",
p. 225-237, Deciphering the Indus script, 1994, Cambridge

This Velan shaman rituals of Dravidians, as described in
Classical tamil texts to cure Children's illnesses, might
have been (mis)understood as Velan(Skanda) causing these
illnesses by Indo-Aryans; Correspondingly Skanda in Sanskrit
texts is said to create the sickness!

Regards,
Arul

PS: I hear Tamil movies with Prabhu Deva and Rajnikanth
dancing like old Velan are extremely popular in Japan :-)




_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU  Thu Jul 22 11:56:24 1999
From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 99 07:56:24 -0400
Subject: Conference Announcement (from SARAI)
Message-ID: <161227051320.23782.12098825779341013382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following event announcement is being posted to your mailing list
or listserv from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI. Please contact
event organizers directly for any further information.

David Magier
SARAI  http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai

========================================
Human Science and the Asian Experience
              18-20 February, 2000
              Centre for the Study of Culture and Society
              Bangalore, India

see full announcement at:
http://www.cscsban.org/html/confer.html




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Jul 23 08:38:26 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 99 09:38:26 +0100
Subject: Obituary D.H.H.Ingalls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9907171222520.508-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227051323.23782.10105616935936541927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have the sad duty to inform you about the passing away of my predecessor,
Daniel H.H. Ingalls. He died last Saturday, July 17, of heart failure, at
Bath County Community Hospital in Hot Springs, Virginia. He was  83. He is
buried at Warm Springs Cemetery in Warm Springs, Va.

He was born and grew up in New York. He attended Harvard University and
graduated with a B.A. in 1936. After receiving a master's degree he became
a "Junior Fellow," a generous appointment that allows young (pre-)PhDs to
work unencumbered for three years on topics of their choice.

However, his fellowship was cut short  by World War II. Ingalls served as
an officer  in South Asia in the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), the
forerunner of the CIA, and with the Pentagon.

After the war he returned to Harvard, where he became Wales Professor of
Sanskrit in 1951. He retired in 1983 after some 35 years of teaching at
Harvard. During this time he was chairman of the Department of Sanskrit and
Indian Studies and served on many other committees.

Next to his colleague and fellow OSS officer, Norman W. Brown at
Philadelphia, he probably taught the largest number of  Sanskritists in
this country (cf. J.W. de Jong in Indo-Iranian Journal, c. 1985).

After his retirement, he moved back to Hot Springs, Virginia, where his
family owned "The Homestead Hotel". This resort, which served as internment
location for Japanese diplomats after the outbreak of the war with Japan,
had been bought a hundred years ago by Ingalls' grandfather, the president
of the Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad. Ingalls also was president and chairman
of the board of Virginia Hot Springs Inc., and of several other local
companies.

Ingalls is well known for his early work on Navyanyaya, his translation of
Vidyakara's collection of verses, and his more recent translation of the
Dhvanyaloka, all published in the Harvard Oriental Series, which he edited
from 1951-83 (see: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/hos.html.)

These are:

*Volume 40.
Materials for the Study of Navya-Ny?ya Logic , by DANIEL HENRY HOLMES
INGALLS, Assistant Professor of Indic Studies and General Education,
Harvard University. 1951. pages 182. Royal 8?. Out of print.
The materials consist of: biographical notes, an examination of some
theories and techniques of Navya-ny?ya logic, Gangesa's Vy?pti-pa?caka,
Mathur?n?tha's Vy?pti-pa?caka-rahasya, extract from Raghun?tha's D?dhiti of
the section commenting on Gangesa's Vy?pti-pa?caka.

*Volume 44.
An Anthology of Sanskrit Court Poetry. Vidy?kara's 'Subh?sitaratnakosa':
translated by DANIEL H.H. INGALLS. 1965. Pages, 460. Royal 8?. Price, $
40.00. Paperback edition 1968, $ 27.50

* Volume 49.
The Dhvany?loka of Anandavardhana with the Locana of Abhinavagupta,
translated by DANIEL H. H. INGALLS, JEFFREY MOUSSAIEFF MASSON, and M. V.
PATWARDHAN; edited with an introduction by DANIEL H. H. INGALLS. 1990.
Pages, 837. Royal 8?. Price, $ 50.00


Surviving are his wife, Joanne; his two daughters, Sarah Daughn of
Providence, R.I, and Rachel Holmes Ingalls of London; and his son, Daniel
H. H. Jr. of Truckee, California. Note also the obituaries in The Boston
Globe of July 21, and the New York Times of July 22, 1999.



Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies
Harvard University, 2 Divinity Avenue
Cambridge, MA  02138, USA
(617) 495-3295   FAX:  (617) 496-8571, direct: 496-2990;
email witzel at fas.harvard. edu


===========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 25 04:22:35 1999
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 99 00:22:35 -0400
Subject: Indian Lunar Religious Holidays
Message-ID: <161227051326.23782.11184447362975480294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

Can someone tell me if it is always the case that if the end time of a tithi
of a Hindu lunar holiday occurs after sunrise on a particular solar day that
the holiday is celebrated on that day?  I am trying to find out if there are
any exceptions?  For example if the end of the tithi of Shivaratri, Guru
Purnima or Ganesha Jayanti occured shortly after sunrise on a particular day
(with the bulk occuring in the previous solar day) would it be celebrated
that day or the previous day?  Also do Hindu temples in North America ever
adjust the timing of their celebrations to coincide with the celebrations in
India?

Can the calendar published in "The Indian Astronomical Ephemeris" based on
the Calendar Reform Committee (1957)be taken as giving the generally
accepted dates for religious holidays.  Are there cases where the
traditional calendric practices give different results and communities that
follow these instead?

Also can someone give me the address where I can get a Panchanga for all of
year 2000.  I have been able to find several for 1999 but none already out
for 2000?

Thank you in advance,

Harry Spier


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From jaybee at TM.NET.MY  Sun Jul 25 04:58:10 1999
From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 99 12:58:10 +0800
Subject: Indian Lunar Religious Holidays
In-Reply-To: <19990725042236.97540.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227051328.23782.779153865898824495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:22 AM 7/25/99 EDT, you wrote:
>Dear Indologists,
>
>Can someone tell me if it is always the case that if the end time of a tithi
>of a Hindu lunar holiday occurs after sunrise on a particular solar day that
>the holiday is celebrated on that day?  I am trying to find out if there are
>any exceptions?  For example if the end of the tithi of Shivaratri, Guru
>Purnima or Ganesha Jayanti occured shortly after sunrise on a particular day
>(with the bulk occuring in the previous solar day) would it be celebrated
>that day or the previous day?

        Dear Sir,

                It depends on the rituals or ceremony that
        have to be observed. Usually it has become the custom
        among Indian calender-men to confer the thithi that
        was presiding at the sun-rise, to that particular day.
                Thus, we may have the calender showing a
        particular thithi which was prsenting itself just for a
        few ghatikas during sun-rise.
                If the ritual or ceremony is to take place
        in the night, the thithi has to be present at night.
                For example, Sankatahara Chathurthi is
        observed during the  Krishnapaksha chaturthi. In it,
        the fast is broken at moon-rise. That takes place after
        10-30p.m. The important thing is to observe/see the
        4th waning moon and perform the puja. Hence,
        Chaturthi has to  be present only after sunset.
                The same thing would go for Navarathri
        also. The thithi shuld be present at night-fall, i.e.,
        Vijaya Muhurtham.
                For Amavasya, mid-noon is very imporant.
                You are correct. In the case of Sankata hara
        Chathurthi, if the thithi starts only later in the day, the
        fast has to begin early in the morning, i.e., Thrithiyai.
        If we wait for the next morning, which is still Chathurthi,
        to start fasting, we will erroneously end the fast at
        10-30p.m. on that day, which will be Panchami by then.

        Regards

        Jayabarathi

Also do Hindu temples in North America ever
>adjust the timing of their celebrations to coincide with the celebrations in
>India?
>
>Can the calendar published in "The Indian Astronomical Ephemeris" based on
>the Calendar Reform Committee (1957)be taken as giving the generally
>accepted dates for religious holidays.  Are there cases where the
>traditional calendric practices give different results and communities that
>follow these instead?
>
>Also can someone give me the address where I can get a Panchanga for all of
>year 2000.  I have been able to find several for 1999 but none already out
>for 2000?
>
>Thank you in advance,
>
>Harry Spier
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>




From nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM  Mon Jul 26 02:47:41 1999
From: nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM (Nicholas Bedworth)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 99 16:47:41 -1000
Subject: Indian Lunar Religious Holidays
Message-ID: <161227051335.23782.14828162621408736790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

re: panchang, have you checked out that published by the Subramunyaswami
Hindu Temple Society on Kauai? They probably have theirs done by done for
2K, and it's very detailed.


----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Spier <harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 1999 6:22 PM
Subject: Indian Lunar Religious Holidays


> Dear Indologists,
>
> Can someone tell me if it is always the case that if the end time of a
tithi
> of a Hindu lunar holiday occurs after sunrise on a particular solar day
that
> the holiday is celebrated on that day?  I am trying to find out if there
are
> any exceptions?  For example if the end of the tithi of Shivaratri, Guru
> Purnima or Ganesha Jayanti occured shortly after sunrise on a particular
day
> (with the bulk occuring in the previous solar day) would it be celebrated
> that day or the previous day?  Also do Hindu temples in North America ever
> adjust the timing of their celebrations to coincide with the celebrations
in
> India?
>
> Can the calendar published in "The Indian Astronomical Ephemeris" based on
> the Calendar Reform Committee (1957)be taken as giving the generally
> accepted dates for religious holidays.  Are there cases where the
> traditional calendric practices give different results and communities
that
> follow these instead?
>
> Also can someone give me the address where I can get a Panchanga for all
of
> year 2000.  I have been able to find several for 1999 but none already out
> for 2000?
>
> Thank you in advance,
>
> Harry Spier
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Sun Jul 25 23:22:21 1999
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 99 19:22:21 -0400
Subject: Q: Looking for Sanskrit Texts
Message-ID: <161227051332.23782.210978899601835982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Paolo Magnone <p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT> wrote:

> > Dear Prof. Magnone, I have been searching for the Siva Sankalpa
Suktam
> > which I cannot find anywhere, and the Mantra Pushpam which is
included in
> > the Taittiriya Mantra Kosha as a suktam. From which area of works
does
> > Mantra Pushpam come? Neither of these texts are listed in
Bloomfield's Vedic

The mantra pushhpam is not a sUktam and just a collation of various
texts. All the mantras under the mantra pushhpam in the Ramakrishna
Mutt edition are from the section of the tatittirIya AraNyaka known as
sUryanamaskAraH prashnaH. They are certainly from the vedas.

> > Concordance therefore I assume they do not come from the Vedas. I
would like to
> > have a copy of it in Devanagari - do you know of one? I would also
like to have

This is included in a recent publication of the Ramakrishna Mutt
called mantrapushhpam. It includes this text called mantrapushhpam
along with all the standard upanishhads, sUktams and so on.

I have no idea what the shivasa.nkalpa sUktam is. If you find let me
know. Thanks.

Rama




From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT  Sun Jul 25 21:37:41 1999
From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 99 22:37:41 +0100
Subject: Q: Looking for Sanskrit Texts
Message-ID: <161227051330.23782.2224009171794463622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friends,

I have received the following inquiry. Can anybody help?

> Dear Prof. Magnone, I have been searching for the Siva Sankalpa Suktam
> which I cannot find anywhere, and the Mantra Pushpam which is included in
> the Taittiriya Mantra Kosha as a suktam. From which area of works does
> Mantra Pushpam come? Neither of these texts are listed in Bloomfield's Vedic
> Concordance therefore I assume they do not come from the Vedas. I would like to
> have a copy of it in Devanagari - do you know of one? I would also like to have
> an English translation of Taittiriya Mantra Kosha - can you help? Helen Ovens.



----------------------
Paolo Magnone
p.magnone at agora.stm.it
Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies
http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Mon Jul 26 02:55:26 1999
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 99 22:55:26 -0400
Subject: publication of the Aryan-non-Aryan conference volume
Message-ID: <161227051337.23782.15518208890893917635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,
        I am pleased to announce the publication of the papers from the
October 1996 Michigan-Laussane International Seminar on Aryan and
Non-Aryan in South Asia : Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology.

                                        Madhav Deshpande

Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora Vol. 3, 1999

ARYAN AND NON-ARYAN IN SOUTH ASIA
Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology

Edited by Johannes Bronkhorst and Madhav M. Deshpande

distributed by South Asia Books, Columbia, Missouri
(For details, see: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/hos.html)

The 406 page volume contains a preface by the editors, and the following
articles:

H.H. Hock:  "Out of India?  The linguistic evidence"

N.J. Allen: " Hinduism as Indo-European:  Cultural comparativism and
political sensitivities"

J. Bronkhorst:  "Is there an inner conflict of tradition?"

E. Bryant:  "Linguistic substrata and the indigenous Aryan debate"

S.L. Caldwell: "Whose goddes?  Kali as cultural champion in Kerala"

M.M. Deshpande: "What to do with the Anaryas?  Dharmic discourses of
inclusion and exclusion"

L. Gomez: "Nobel lineage and august demeanor:  Religious and social
meanings of Aryan virtue"

H.H. Hock:  "Through a glass darkly:  Modern 'racial' interpretations vs.
textual and general prehistoric evidence on arya and dasa/dasyu in Vedic
society"

A. Parpola:  "The iconography and cult of Kutticcattan"

S. Ratnagar:  "Does archaeology hold the answers?"

Jim Schaffer and D. Lichtenstein:  "Migration, philolology and South Asian
archaeology"

P. Singh:  "Revisiting the Arya-Samaj movement"

T.R. Trautmann:  "Constructing the racial theory of Indian civilization"

G.L. Windfuhr: "A note on Aryaman's social and cosmic setting"

M. Witzel: "Aryan and non-Aryan names in Vedic India.  Data for the
linguistic situation, c. 1900-500 B.C."




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jul 26 08:18:29 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 99 09:18:29 +0100
Subject: SV: publication of the Aryan-non-Aryan conference volume
In-Reply-To: <01BED756.56AB9FC0.lmfosse@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227051340.23782.7335019613373922573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Lars,

the HOS OPERA MINORA (all the three of them) should be ordered from

South Asia Books
P.O.Box 502
Columbia MO 06505
sabooks at juno.com
fax 573-474-8124

and NOT from Harvard University Press, from where the *main* Series is
published & sold.


NB:
The ISBN no. for Vol. 3 is : 1-888789-04-2
Price $ 35

Hope this helps
Yours Michael


>Dear Madhav,
>
>apparently in order to order the book from HUP, we need the ISBN number. I
>have
>not been able to dig this out from the Internet for some reason. Could you be
>so kind as to let us know?


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Jul 26 09:02:13 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 99 11:02:13 +0200
Subject: SV: publication of the Aryan-non-Aryan conference volume
Message-ID: <161227051338.23782.14003343572170444534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Madhav Deshpande [SMTP:mmdesh at UMICH.EDU] skrev 26. juli 1999 04:55:
> Dear Colleagues,
>         I am pleased to announce the publication of the papers from the
> October 1996 Michigan-Laussane International Seminar on Aryan and
> Non-Aryan in South Asia : Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology.
>
>                                         Madhav Deshpande
>

Dear Madhav,

apparently in order to order the book from HUP, we need the ISBN number. I have
not been able to dig this out from the Internet for some reason. Could you be
so kind as to let us know?

Best regards,

Lars Martin


Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU  Mon Jul 26 21:43:01 1999
From: pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 99 17:43:01 -0400
Subject: address
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.990309191805.8992B-100000@taurus.cus.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227051342.23782.12974469120541529199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could someone give me the e-mail address of David Shulman?
Thanks!
________________________________
Patricia M. Greer
Department of Religious Studies
University of Virginia




From fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE  Tue Jul 27 05:54:30 1999
From: fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 06:54:30 +0100
Subject: Q: Looking for Sanskrit Texts
In-Reply-To: <199907252136.XAA20155@agora.stm.it>
Message-ID: <161227051345.23782.3148029236026355500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The ;siva-sa.mkalpa-suukta for which the inquirer is looking probably
refers to the noble and perceptive mantras found toward the end of the
Maadhyandina recension Yajurveda. Please look for lines such as the
following:
yaj jaagrato duuram udaiti daiva.m tad u suptasya tathaiveti /
duura.mgama.m jyoti.saa.m jyotir eka.m, tan me mana.h ;siva-sa.mkalpam astu //

Vishvabandhu's Vaidika-padaanukrama-ko;sa gives the following references
for ;Siva-sa.mkalpa which I have not had time to verify: Khila 4.11.1-13,
Maadhyandina 34.1-6, Kaa.thaka 33.1.1

-- ashok aklujkar




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Tue Jul 27 05:40:31 1999
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 09:40:31 +0400
Subject: address
Message-ID: <161227051349.23782.17371823032320037056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 David Shulman's address:  shulman at coma.huji.ac.il
                                        Yaroslav Vassilkov




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Jul 27 09:20:31 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 10:20:31 +0100
Subject: Mahabharata in the electronic format :
In-Reply-To: <379D5751.362FEAD8@nda.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227051351.23782.7728323404978745064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Actually J. Smith's work is a revised version of the text Prof. M. Tokunaga
has typed in already in the mid-Nineties. His electronic text of the
Mahabharata *and* the Ramayana is available at his Kyoto server.
Since I have had the  texts for a long time, I do not have the corrrect
www.address right now. What is it?
cf. also http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/indphil/

There was a long discussion on this, and the 'procedure' taken, some two or
three years ago.
See the Indology archives.

There also is this version, provied by Skt enthusiasts at Utah, I quote
from their 1998 msg:
"This Devanagari version of the Ramayana is based on  Prof. John Smith's
modified CSX version of the original encoding by Prof. Muneo Tokunaga of
Kyoto, Japan. These pages would not be possible without Prof. Tokunaga's
monumental effort in encoding the whole RAmAyaNa of the Baroda Critical
Edition. "

Please check it out at
        http://www.hscc.net/ramayana/


MW.



At 12:23 +0530 7/27/99, Surya P. Mittal wrote:

>mention of Dr. John Smith's work.  He has put entire Mahabharata
>(BORI, Pune edition) in the electronic format.  The relevant
>address is :     http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jul 27 06:53:05 1999
From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 12:23:05 +0530
Subject: Mahabharata in the electronic format :
Message-ID: <161227051347.23782.9866586001189423589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While going through the old stock of Indian Express (a leading
daily from India), New Delhi Edition, I noticed that there was a
mention of Dr. John Smith's work.  He has put entire Mahabharata
(BORI, Pune edition) in the electronic format.  The relevant
address is :     http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/
Though it was incorrectly printed in the newspaper, it took me
a few minutes to find out the correct URL.

Researchers will find this of interest.

                                                Surya




From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU  Tue Jul 27 19:55:12 1999
From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt M Thorp)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 14:55:12 -0500
Subject: Mahabharata in the electronic format :
In-Reply-To: <v03020902b3c3168224e6@[140.247.42.117]>
Message-ID: <161227051355.23782.11084600333138525980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Quite a while ago I believe the Gorresio edition of the Ramayana was
reprinted in India: Does anyone know if it is still available?  I remember
that the institiute that published it wouldn't sell me a copy because I
wasn't a member.  I would appreciate also a bibliographical reference,
since my notes were lost in a flood.

Burt M. Thorp
University of North Dakota
Internet:  bthorp at plains.nodak.edu




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Jul 27 14:57:58 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 15:57:58 +0100
Subject: Mahabharata in the electronic format :
In-Reply-To: <v03020902b3c3168224e6@[140.247.42.117]>
Message-ID: <161227051353.23782.15499928678915495396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Links to Smith's and Tokunaga's work are available from the INDOLOGY web
site (Virtual archive of e-texts).

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Jul 27 21:26:33 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 17:26:33 -0400
Subject: address (David Shulman)
Message-ID: <161227051357.23782.5237106690270193165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have in my address book, with no date, this E-address:

shulman at coma.huji/ac/il

I presume the slashes should be replaced by dots.

Allen Thrasher


Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Jul 28 08:44:20 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 99 08:44:20 +0000
Subject: [Mahabharata in the electronic format :]
Message-ID: <161227051359.23782.5859456980817171006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is there an English translation also?
Kalyanaraman

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Jul 28 08:58:17 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 99 08:58:17 +0000
Subject: Sarasvati River Revival: Status Report
Message-ID: <161227051362.23782.14391551459819025780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following report may be of interest to indology:

REVIVAL OF LEGENDARY SARASVATI RIVER BEGINS

A historic event unfolded in Jagadhri, (Dist. Yamunanagar, Haryana State) on
24 July 1999, which will have a long-term beneficial impact on major parts of
North West India and revive memories of over 5,000 years ago.

Three projects to revive the legendary Sarasvati River were inaugurated; one
was to link re-activate the ancient channels of the river from Adh Badri
(Yamunanagar Dist.) to Pehoa (referred to as Pruthudaka in the Great Indian
Epic, Mahaabhaarata); the second was to provide a piped feeder from the Bhakra
Main canal to Pehoa, using the perennial waters of the Sutlej emanating from
the Mansarovar glacier in Mt. Kailash; the third was to map the course of the
river over a stretch of 1600 kms. from Bandarpunch massif in Western Garhwal
(Har-ki-dun glacier) to the Arabian Sea near Somnath (Prabhas Patan, Gujarat)
using the remote sensing application centre in Jodhpur, Rajasthan and to
delineate the groundwater sanctuaries and palaeo-drainage system of North West
India.

Shri Suraj Bhan, Governor of Uttar Pradesh and who was an M.P. representing
Ambala consitutency, inaugurated the Sarasvati Shodh Sansthaan, Haryana. Dr.
S. Kalyanaraman, Sarasvati Sindhu Research Centre, Chennai was a keynote
speaker. 

The initial stage of the revival of the Sarasvati River begins with the
re-activation of the channel from Adh Badri to Pehoa is mentioned as Sarasvati
Nadi on the Survey of India topo-sheets.  This project is financed by the
World Bank as part of the package of $139 million US Dollars for rejuvenation
of the water systems of North West India. The re-activation of this section
will keep the river flowing all 365 days of the year upto Pehoa and beyond.
Pehoa has the ancient Vasishtha ashram where the Sarasvati River becomes
east-flowing and Sarasvati Ghats where homage to ancestors (pitru tarpan.a) is
offered by pilgrims. The ghats are more ancient than the pilgrimage ghats in
Varanasi on the Ganga River. This pilgrimage site was also visited by Balarama
during his pilgrimage from Dwaraka to Mathura along the course of the
Sarasvati River as described in the shalya parvam of the Great Indian Epic.
The website Universal Resource Locator (URL) is:
http://sarasvati.simplenet.com

A number of organizations are involved in the research and project work:
National Remote Sensing Agency, Geological Society of India, Bhabha Atomic
Research Centre, Central Water Commission, State Water Resources Agencies,
Central Arid Zone Research Institute, Central Arid Zone Forest Research
Institute, Indian Space Research Organization. Satellite images from LANDSAT,
EOSAT, IRS 1-A to 1-D have been put to extensive use in the research studies.
The participation of the scientific community in the studies is highlighted by
the recent publication (Feb. 1999) by Geological Society of a book titled
VEDIC SARASVATI describing the palaeodrainage system of North West India.

Dr. S. Kalyanaraman


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jul 29 05:15:18 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 99 01:15:18 -0400
Subject: A question on "mugdha/A"
Message-ID: <161227051364.23782.13446153139925858329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would appreciate if the list members could provide contextual information
on the earliest occurrence of the Sanskrit word "mugdha/A" with the meaning
"charming". Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 15:03:39 1999
From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 99 11:03:39 -0400
Subject: address
In-Reply-To: <s79debd3.037@loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227051368.23782.1579208436957714493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could anyone supply me with the e-mail address for David Kinsley at
McMaster University? Thanks,

Alf Hiltebeitel
Director, Human Sciences Program
Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences
The George Washington University
Phillips Hall 412
Washington, D.C., 20052
202/ 994-4297
Fax: 202/ 994-7034

Department of Religion
2106 G St., NW
Washington, D.C. 20052
202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674
Fax: 202/ 994-9379




From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Thu Jul 29 10:49:29 1999
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 99 11:49:29 +0100
Subject: A question on "mugdha/A"
In-Reply-To: <fa3e2d26.24d13d66@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227051366.23782.13465624375149958107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

> I would appreciate if the list members could provide contextual information
> on the earliest occurrence of the Sanskrit word "mugdha/A" with the meaning
> "charming". Thanks in advance.

Negative evidence to start off your investigation: the word does not occur
at all in the Mahabharata or the Ramayana.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Jul 29 20:35:19 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 99 16:35:19 -0400
Subject: Bansari Mitra Lecture at Library of Congress
Message-ID: <161227051371.23782.7037691035255515307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Asian Division, Library of Congress

presents a lecture by

Dr. Bansari Mitra

Division of Languages and Literature
Northern Virginia Community College, Annandale

on

Cannibalism, Sorcery, and Magical Emblems
 in Indian Fairy Tales

Tuesday, August 3, 1999
12 noon - 1:00 PM

West Dining Room
Sixth Floor, Madison Building
101 Independence Ave., SE
Washington, DC 20540

next to Capitol South Metro



Dr. Mitra's studies have included female gender roles in Victorian
and modern English fiction, gender roles in Australian aboriginal
society, Australian fiction, and traditional and modern fairy tales in
East and West.


Interpreting services (American Sign Language, Contact Signing, Oral
and/or Tactile) will be provided if requested five business days in
advance of the event.  Call (202) 707-6362 TTY and voice to make a
specific request.  For other ADA accommodations please contact the LC
ADA Coordinator at (202) 707-9948 TTY and (202) 707-7544 voice.




From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM  Fri Jul 30 04:47:55 1999
From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 99 05:47:55 +0100
Subject: A question on "mugdha/A"
In-Reply-To: <fa3e2d26.24d13d66@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227051373.23782.15235354735213747340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Date sent:              Thu, 29 Jul 1999 01:15:18 EDT
Send reply to:          Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From:                   Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>
Subject:                A question on "mugdha/A"
To:                     INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

> I would appreciate if the list members could provide contextual information
> on the earliest occurrence of the Sanskrit word "mugdha/A" with the meaning
> "charming". Thanks in advance.
>
> Regards
> S. Palaniappan

July 29, 99
The surest place to find this information is the scriptorium of the
project of A Dictionary of Sanskrit on Historical Principles
undertaken by the Deccan College (now a deemed university),
Pune, India. Some member from that place may be able to furnish
the e-mail address of the Institute.
KSA




From arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM  Fri Jul 30 04:47:55 1999
From: arjunwadkar at MCMAIL.COM (K S Arjunwadkar)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 99 05:47:55 +0100
Subject: A question on "mugdha/A"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9907291147300.468-100000@pune.oriental.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227051375.23782.7734939987827538182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Date sent:              Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:49:29 +0100
Send reply to:          Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From:                   John Smith <jds10 at CAM.AC.UK>
Subject:                Re: A question on "mugdha/A"
To:                     INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

> On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:
>
> > I would appreciate if the list members could provide contextual information
> > on the earliest occurrence of the Sanskrit word "mugdha/A" with the meaning
> > "charming". Thanks in advance.
>
> Negative evidence to start off your investigation: the word does not occur
> at all in the Mahabharata or the Ramayana.
>
> John Smith
>
> --
> Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
> Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
> Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
> Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html

Feedback from K S Arjunwadkar <arjunwadkar at mcmail.com>

The surest place to get this information is the scriptorium of the
project of A Dictionary of Sanskrit on Historical Principles, Deccan
College (now a deemed university), Pune, India.
KSA/29-7-99




From shirin_khokar at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jul 30 10:13:53 1999
From: shirin_khokar at HOTMAIL.COM (Shirin Khokhariwal)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 99 10:13:53 +0000
Subject: Bharatvarsha/Bharata/Jambu Dweepa
Message-ID: <161227051377.23782.3777359949046033121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can someone here tell me
1. The exact meaning, origin and the difference between the terms
A.Bharatvarsha
B.Bharata
C.Jambu Dweepa

When were these first used.


______________________________________________________
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From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Jul 30 15:24:47 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 99 11:24:47 -0400
Subject: address of David Kinsley
Message-ID: <161227051384.23782.626661716567328576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Alf,

He doesn't list it on the Dept. of Religious Studies homepage but the
Department's email address is:

dickshe at mcmaster.ca

Allen



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
LJ-150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Fri Jul 30 11:19:10 1999
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 99 14:19:10 +0300
Subject: Looking for old books
Message-ID: <161227051379.23782.6859202563878513597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues

In 1887 two texts of veterinary medicine, the Azvavaidyaka and the
Azvacikitsita, were published in the Bibliotheca Indica series, Calcutta.
Is there anyone who has easy access to these volumes and could check,
whether there is a chapter dealing with the treatment of the burns of
horses, and send a copy of that chapter to me, if it is found (in cannot be
long). Although the series is common and well known, these volumes seem to
be rare. We do not have them here and during my recent visit to Leiden I
was searching for them without success at the usually very good library of
the Kern Institute. Thanks in advance.

Klaus

mailing address:
Dr. Klaus Karttunen
Institute of Asian and African Studies
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
00014 University of Helsinki
Finland


Klaus Karttunen
Institute for Asian and African Studies
Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094




From shirin_khokar at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jul 30 20:15:23 1999
From: shirin_khokar at HOTMAIL.COM (Shirin Khokhariwal)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 99 20:15:23 +0000
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227051382.23782.9410451186697283119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List Members & List Owners,

We are launching VIVECHANA-An Online Journal & Discussion Forum on India &
Indian Heritage on 15th of August.

VIVECHANA would provide a common platform for academics from anumber of
disciplines to participate in thought provoking discussions on topics
related to India & Indian Subcontinent.

For further info please visit our website at http://vivechana.indianet.org.

We will welcome your contributions and participation in VIVECHANA.To join
VIVECHANA send a blank mail to vivechana-subscribe at egroups.com.

Thanks&Regards
Shirin
Vivechana Desk
vivechana-desk at egroups.com
http://vivechana.indianet.org


______________________________________________________
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From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Jul 31 00:32:28 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 99 00:32:28 +0000
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227051387.23782.7302590173649221124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Shirin Khokhariwal wrote:
>
> Dear List Members & List Owners,
>
> We are launching VIVECHANA-An Online Journal & Discussion Forum on India &
> Indian Heritage on 15th of August.
>
> VIVECHANA would provide a common platform for academics from anumber of
> disciplines to participate in thought provoking discussions on topics
> related to India & Indian Subcontinent.
>
> For further info please visit our website at http://vivechana.indianet.org
>
> We will welcome your contributions and participation in VIVECHANA.To join
> VIVECHANA send a blank mail to vivechana-subscribe at egroups.com.
>
> Thanks&Regards
> Shirin
> Vivechana Desk
> vivechana-desk at egroups.com
> http://vivechana.indianet.org
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Congratulations ! I look forward to a fruitful give and take and yet another dynamic
site to enable Indian cultural entity to contribute towards vasudhaiva kutumbakam.
Cordially,
Bharat Gupt
Associate Professor, Delhi Univ.
tel:724-1490 , fax 741-5658
bharatgupt at vsnl.com
webpage: http://personal.vsnl.com/bharatgupt/




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Jul 31 02:49:32 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 99 02:49:32 +0000
Subject: to indology
Message-ID: <161227051389.23782.14079874677813561400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
> John Smith wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:
> >
> > > I would appreciate if the list members could provide contextual information
> > > on the earliest occurrence of the Sanskrit word "mugdha/A" with the meaning
> > > "charming". Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Negative evidence to start off your investigation: the word does not occur
> > at all in the Mahabharata or the Ramayana.
> >
> > John Smith
> >
> > --
> > Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
> > Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
> > Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
> > Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html
>

Bharat Gupt wrote:
> It is found neither as a categoy of nayika in the Natyasastra of Bharata Muni.
> Shardatanaya and Kumbha are, as far as I know (I may be wrong), the first one to make
> such a category
> Monier Williams, howerver, has indicated its usage in RV and the Brahmanas.
>
> Bharat Gupt
> Associate Professor, Delhi Univ.
> tel:724-1490 , fax 741-5658
> bharatgupt at vsnl.comwbpage: http://personal.vsnl.com/bharatgupt/




From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM  Thu Jul 22 21:57:57 1999
From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 99 17:57:57 -0400
Subject: birth of mAl
Message-ID: <161227051321.23782.1909902950341693673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Artur Karp [mailto:hart at POLBOX.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 4:10 AM
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: Indology constraints (contd.)
>
>
> As Indology participants cannot be expected  to know all Indian
> languages,

One only needs to learn two Indian languages: Tamil and Skt...

>>
> From a recent posting (birth of mAl):
>
> >To quote the fuller context from his commentary:
> >
> >"tiratciyaik koNTa avuNarai venRa
> >pon2n2Arc ceyta mAlaiyin2ai uTaiya
> >mAmaiyai uTaiyOn2 piRanta ONamAkiya nan2n2AL"
>

"ONam the asuspicious natal asterism of the dark one who vanquished the
numerous asuras and wears a golden garland"

> It's quite possible that the lines contain important
> information. How an
> ignoramus like myself (I don't believe I am going to learn
> Tamil) would know
> it?
>
Wish you all the prosperity needed to enable you learn Tamil
and discover the secrets of Indology! :-))

>
> Regards,
>
> Artur Karp
> University of Warsaw
> Poland
>

Regards
Chandra