SV: creation of human kind

[N. Ganesan]

N. Ganesan wrote:
>
> The Vaishnava bhakti tradition of the power of God
> to cancel karma is similar the Mahayana doctrine
> where bodhisattvas cancel the karma of those suffering
> in different types of hell (cf. Har dayal, Bodhisattva
> doctrine in Buddhist sanskrit lit.)
>

<<<
Are you implying that this is the origin of the Vaishnava
doctrine? I find this a highly suspect premise, and I
urge you to do further research before throwing presumptive
statements out in a scholarly forum.
>>>

I am not implying this. It is Har Dayal, Bodhisattva doctrine, 1932
For example, p.36
"Although the idea of bhakti originated among the Buddhists
and was well adopted in self-defence by the Hindus".

One author who has worked for decades on MBh. told me:
"For a brief formulation, I would say I agree with those who see
the Gita as in some aspects (and not minor ones) an answer to
Buddhism."

Quite a few scholars has written about the connections
between Buddhism and Bhagavadgiitaa.

Indira Vishvanathan Peterson, Prof. of Sanskrit writes in
The Norton Anthology, World Masterpieces, p. 958, 1995:
"There is reason to believe that the Gita, originally
an independent philosophical dialogue similar to earlier
and contemporary texts such as the Upanishads and the
Buddhist scriptures, was deliberately placed in the popular
MBh. epic.., This new configuration of elements fortified a
view that was at once revolutionary for its time (ca. first
century AD) and designed to preserve the Hindu social
hierarchy.

 By the end of the first century BC, the Buddhist and Jain
religions had gained a considerable following among the Indian
masses and among kings and merchants as well. Focusing
on the problem of karma - the belief that all actions involve
inevitable consequences that must be suffered thru' many lives-
Buddhism in particular offered people from all walks of life
a religious path on which ethical action could be combined with
contemplative spiritual practices, eventually leading to liberation
from the burden of karma.In the Hindu social order, on the other
hand, rigid and hierarchical correlations between birth and
occupation locked people into existential situations that held no
such prospect of ultimate freedom.

.. The Gita appears to have been the response of brahman thinkers
who stood to lose the most from the potential disintegration of
the Hindu social system. Thru' Krishna's teachings, the anonymous
author of the Gita articulates a new doctrine that will justify
the hierarchies of class and social duty (he uses the word
lokasaMgraha, social solidarity) at the same time that it offers
universal access to the ultimate goal of emancipation.

.. The text synthesizes the contemplative vision of the Buddhists
and the sages of the Upanishads..."

I am confidant of these theories
especially when they are apparently well researched and
therefore highly substantiated.

Coming back to Tamil, seeing the central importance
to Gita in 20th century Indian national discourse
much similar to Islamic Koran or Christian Bible,
it is indeed surprising that 1) no ancient sculptures
or 2) no line in nAlAyira divya prabandham of Alvars
speaks of KRSNArujuna saMvAdam!!

In fact, I know only one instance where Krishna
advises PaNDavas in nAlAyiram. That is after the war!
Please give me 1) lines from any Alvar talking of
Krishna-Arjuna conversation or 2) references on
the relations between Buddhism and Giitaa.

With kind regards,
N. Ganesan

<<<
The idea of a Creator God's ability to cancel karma is
contained in many of the Upanishads, and one need not
struggle to interpret them in this manner. For example:

        yadA paSya paSyati ...
          rukmavarNam kartAram ISam |
        tadA vidvAn puNyapApe vidhUya
          paramam sAmyam upaiti ||  (mundaka 3.1.3)

[Pardon any errors, I am quoting from memory.]

Here a vision of a Lord, described as the supreme Creator
in earlier verses, is said to cause the knower to shed
off all merit and demerit (karma) and attain extreme
similarity to the Creator Itself.

I don't mean this to be conclusive proof of the Vaishnava
theory having its origin in the Vedas.  At the same time,
I find these short, one paragraph theories annoying,
especially when they are apparently unresearched and
therefore unsubstantiated.
>>>>




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