Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva

Paul Kekai Manansala kekai at JPS.NET
Tue Jan 12 17:31:44 UTC 1999


I would only add to Samar's post that the complex geometric patterns
used in Tantrism are believed by some to have originated from the
weaving patterns of Central Asian peoples.  There introduction into
Islam is often credited to Turko-Mongol peoples who migrated into Iran
or other parts of the Middle East. Indeed there appearance in these
regions often coincides with Turko-Mongol invasions. Even the most
isolated Central Asian tribes appear to use these weaving patterns,
although they are most popularly seen in the West on Afghan or Persian
rugs.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

Samar Abbas wrote:
>
> On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote:
> >   During what centuries, do we have "Siva from Tibet?
> >   Want to read on Tibetan "Siva as well. References please.
>
>   This occurred in the thread `Re. FW: Deepa Mehta's Fire'. Since the
> topic has departed sufficiently from its original theme, I start a new
> thread.
>
>   Tantrism is of Tibetic origin as evident from the following. I have
> given references below. All the religions of Tantrism, etc. are
> derivatives of Bon, the ancient Tibetic religion.
>
> 1. Tantrism is referred to as `The Chinese Rites' in the Tantric texts.
>
> 2. The Fifth Veda fell to Tibet (story reproduced below), and thus the
>    people of that country are adepts at the "Rites of the 5th Veda".
>    (cf. Story given below).
>
> 3.. Siva's home is in the Himalayas, and he is white just as Tibetans
>    (North Mongoloids). Mt. Meru is obviously in the Himalayas, probably
>    near Lake Mansarovar.
>
> 4. Tantrism is still practiced in Tibet, where it is the national
>    religion. It was more of an underground witchcraft movement in India.
>    Orthodox Vaishnavism was not very happy with such beliefs, and in
>    Bengal the Tibetan Buddhists (ie. Tantrics) were crushed by the Senas.
>    These persons welcomed the Islamic invasion, since it led to the
>    destruction of Vaishnavite shrines. The Sufis further developed the
>    mustic Tibetic Tantrism, mixing it with Arabian alchmey and ancient
>    Egyprian cults (absorbed into Arab Sufism), cf. the Madari Sufists etc.
>
>     There are thus two fountainheads of mysticism in Asia, one is Tibet,
>    and the other Arabia (cf. the Syrian Harran, the ancient Sabean
>    shrine of the Ka'aba, a representative of Saturn, the Sabean Priapus,
>    later absorbed into Islam).
>
> 5. `Parvati' the name of Shiva's wife, means `of the mountain', ie. she
>    came from the Himalayas.
>
> 6. The source of Tantrism is given by the Tantric texts themselves as
>    being Mahacina or Cina, ie. Tibet and the surrounding regions. As per a
>    well-known legend, Vasishta travelled to Tibet to learn about the lost
>    `Fifth Veda'. I have reproduced this story below {
>    Rudrayamalatantra.XVII }
>    { Brahmayamalatantra I-III } { Mahacinatantra }
>    { Taratantram (Gaudagranthamala),Ch.141 }.
>
> 7. Taoism in China has the conept of yin-yang, similar to the Shiva
>   -Shakti cult and the Adi-buddha and Adi-prajna in later Buddhism.
>   { `Obscure Religious Cults, S.Das Gupta, Firma KLM, 1969 3rd
>   ed. Calctutta, p.341 }
>
> 8. Goddess Uma, another manifestation of Shakti, is referred to as
>    Haimavati or daughter of Himavat { Kena Upanishad.III.25 } { Chandra,
>    Indo-Aryan Races', p.123 }.
>
> 9. The Siddha cult (a Hindustani alchmist cult) was, as per its own
> tradition, introduced by one Taoist alchamist from China:
>
>    There is a popular tradition that the SIddhas were a "a band of
> death-defying theriacal and therapeutic alchemists indebted in all
> respects to Bhoga, a pre-Christian Taoist immigrant from China, who, in
> his methods of keying up the body of impure matter through `reverberation'
> and `projection' to the pitch of pracitcally cancelling demise, merely
> sought to promulgate the lesser athanasic precepts of Lao-tse, since the
> vital objective of the Tao-Teh-King is the transfiguration of hte
> immortalised ethereal body into a permanent garment of celestial virtue,
> in order to fit it to associate to eternity with the Tao"
>  - { Das Gupta ibid, p. 193 } and
>  - { `The Doctrinal Culture and Tradition of the Siddhas', Dr.
>    V.V.Raman Sastri, in Cultural Heritage of India, Vol.II 303-319;
>    Ramakrishna Institute Mission of Culture }
>
>   Tibetic alchmey mixed with Arabic-Islamic alchemy during the
> golden age of Indian alchemy, 1000 AD- 1800 AD ; the Hindustani
> Califate of Delhi. Free from Orthodox Vaishnavite oppression, a Hindustani
> alchemy & Tantra developed and expanded rapidly, representing a mixture of
> Islamic Sufic and Tibetic Tantric traditions.
>
> 10. One of the Tantras is called `Mahacinatantra', and the doctrines
> propounded are Taoist and Tibetic Bon.
>
> Here is the well-known tale of Vasistha going to Tibet to learn the
> Tantric rites:
>
>  Vasishta travelled to the sea-shore (as per the Rudrayamala Tantra, this
> would indicate Bengal) or the Kamakhya hills, Assam (as per the
> Brahmayamala Tantra) and observed strict Yoga worship for the Devi
> Buddhesvari. He did for this for a long time without any results and so
> cursed the Devi. The Devi appeared and said, " he had adopted an altoghter
> wrong path; her worship was unknown in the Vedas;  it was known only in
> the country of Mahacina;  and that Vasishta would gain his object if he
> received instruction from Vishnu now residing there as Buddha. There he
> was surprised to find the Buddha drinking wine enjoying several women. His
> doubts were soon dispelled by Buddha, who initiated him.  {
> Rudrayamalatantra.XVII } { Brahmayamalatantra I-III } { Mahacinatantra } {
> Taratantram (Gaudagranthamala),Ch.141 }.
>
> As per another legend, Brahma memorized all the 5 Vedas. He taught the 5th
> Veda to the Brahmans, but kept the 5th Veda (ie. the Tantras) safe for a
> time when mankind was ready. Due to his arrogance, Shiva cut off his head,
> and the 5th Veda then fell to TIbet, where its inhabitants took up the
> study with great zeal. Thus, as per the Tantras themselves, the original
> home of Tantrism is associated with Tibet.
>
> Here is a chart showing the Indo-Tibetic religions:
>
>               Old Bon Tibetic Religion
>             /          /       \     \
>           /  Uttara Tantrism   Bon    Purbi (East Indic) Shaktism
>      Lamaism    /     |                /        \       \
>               /       |         Bengal     Assamese     Orissa
>   Kashmir Shaivism    |        Tantrism     Tantrism     Tantrism
>     Tantric Islam, Nath cult etc.   |             \
>                            Vaishnava Sahajiya   Kamakhya
>                              etc.                 Cult etc.
>
> N.Ganesan wrote:
> > The Tantras date to the centuries AD, and are very late.
>
> That does not matter. They are renditions, copies of copies etc. of
> ancient texts and practices. No Vedic text is found on paper earlier than
> the 11the century, since paper was introduced by the Moslems, but that
> does not mean that the Vedas were composed in the Islamic era. Similarly,
> these Tantras were composed in Tibet in the early centuries BC, and Tibet
> is the fountainhead of Tantrism, and in fact all mystic knowledge in the
> East. They were written down only much later.
>
> N.Ganesan wrote:
> >   Vajrabodhi in Seventh century AD set sail from Kanchi
> >   to Java and China to teach Tantrayana. He was
> >   from Malaya/Potalaka parvata.
>
> Dravidian `Tantrism' is of African Origin. The African origin of the
> Old Dravidian `Black' Shiva; his affinities to the Bantu Shiva, etc. has
> already been shown on this list, and there is no need to repeat.
> Indeed, one may find Dravidian `voodoo' among the untouched Dravidians
> living in remote areas. One should not use the word `Tantrism' for this
> set of beliefs, since Tantra means 5Th Veda from Tibet. `Dravidian
> religion' or Dravidian Shavism are better terms. It is independant of
> Tibetic Tantrism. The practices may have been similar. Just because the
> Greeks had the Dionysus and Priapus cults does not mean that they were
> `Tantrics', or `Shaivites', so the occurrence of Priapus-like cults among
> the Dravidians and Bantu Africans does not imply they are Tantrics.
>
>  It is important to distinguish the White Tibetic Shiva, the Black Old
> Dravidian Shiva; and the Roman Hermes, Greek Priapus and Nordic Odin; they
> have no relation. These are similar gods in different religions.
>
> Samar





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