From rkornman at CSD.UWM.EDU Fri Jan 1 08:00:02 1999 From: rkornman at CSD.UWM.EDU (Robin Kornman) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 02:00:02 -0600 Subject: Information on sesame (tila) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044463.23782.2476761460650574333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thre is a famous "doha" by Tilopa on the pounding of sesame oil as an analogy for the spiritual path. You can find it in _The Rain of Wisdom_ (Shambhala Pub.) >>>> >>>> I would be grateful to receive information about the use of sesame in old indian food habits (sanskrit or pali quotations etc.). Thanks!! S.Sani 0000,0000,FFFF=================================================================== Prof. Saverio Sani 0000,0000,FFFF Sesame oil (taila) is mentioned among the "superior foods" (praNItabhojana) in the bhikSu-prAtimokSasUtra of the SarvAstivAdins and its pAli parallel, rule pAtayantikA 40 (= pAcittiya 39). It may be used as a medicine for sick monks: NiHsargikA pAtayantikA 30 (= nissaggiya pAcittiya 23). Best regards, G.v.Simson <<<<<<<< Robin Kornman Fellow, National Endownment for the Humanities Associate, Joint Center for International Studies University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee 414-967-0311 fax 414-967-0064 rkornman at csd.uwm.edu -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1107 bytes Desc: not available URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 1 13:47:20 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 05:47:20 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044441.23782.3753961952226319615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. AC>>What is wrong with the view that the Europeans want us to believe AC>>in AIT because it gives credence to the idea that India has always AC>>been invaded and settled ? YV> Dear Ashish, thank you for so clear and honest formulation YV> of the concept which is really basic for your favourite YV> Out-of-India "theory". But can not you see yourself that the YV> concept which helds that ALL Europeans are scoundrels and YV> politically (or otherwise?) biased falsifiers of facts, is YV> racist? And it can not be a base for any scientific theory, but YV> only for the racist, nationalistic propaganda. YV> What makes your words particularly insulting and unjust YV> is that you mean by the wicked "Europeans" first of all YV> Indologists - i.e. the people who devoted their lives to the YV> study of India, the country they love. And love quite YV> disinterestedly, though I doubt you can believe it. AC>>Where is the damn proof for AIT ? YV> If we change (which is absolutely necessary) the AIT for YV> AMT (Aryan Migration theory) - the exhaustively full answer has YV> been given in the last posting by R.Zydenbos. Such thing as AIT YV> does not exist now (for several decades at least). Fighting with YV> "AIT", you fight with Don Quixote's windmills. The kind of diatribes and insults unleashed by a one-month old entrant to INDOLOGY is not anything new to Indians. In fact, this is only the tip of a massive iceberg that Indians have to endure and submit meekly for the last 3,200 years. For the last 3200 years, the civilization of India has been feeding itself on energy obtained through internal colonization. Every time new levels of technology and human conditions are reached elsewhere, it is employed with force in India to submerge the "little traditions". If viewed from this perspective, this is an ancient and (at the same time) an ongoing process. Now Indigenous Aryans call the two major language families as North Arya and South Arya!! Note that they hesitate to use the English usage 'Aryan'. This is because the 'n' ending is usually of Dravidian origins (cf. Jayavarman, Suryavarman in Southeast Asia as well). My studies convince me that Dravidian languages cannot be named as South Aryan or South Prakrits. Just as the British Imperialists are said to have wanted a commonness to justify their ruling over an "alien" population, the Indian nationalit ideologues seem to want to take over and submerge the Dravidian identity for a political objective. A univerally valid scholarship on India capable of withstanding any scrutiny and not suited for just a particular group is appreciated. Bharatiyar, a great 20th century poet and freedom fighter, sang that scholarship, if great, has to be accepted by the entire world. Have a happy 1999, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Fri Jan 1 02:07:42 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 07:07:42 +0500 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: <199812310247.HAA04564@giaspn01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227044430.23782.7045063951592795916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please give some references. regards, sarma. At 07:36 AM 12/31/98 +0530, K.S.Arjunwadkar wrote: >Thus, at times, he dubs his opponent who solely relies on >logic/reason as a bull without a tail and horns, ridicules him as speaking >with an unrestrained mouth, and so on. While concluding his criticism of >the philosophical doctrines of the Buddha, he remarks that the Buddha was >either insane or one who hated the mankind to the extent of taking pleasure >in misguiding it. I can, if required, quote from his works to support my >statements. > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 1 15:47:55 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 07:47:55 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044446.23782.7921944022035623166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< Sorry to start the new year with this topic that is off topic. Just a punktualization:) The "Mircea Eliade's some nazi connections" is his contribution to the Italian group of Ur (Ur-Krur), which several intellectuals, in the years twenties and thirties, directly and indirectly took part to (such as Julius Evola, painter and philosopher, Emilio Servadio, psychoanalyst! Sibilla Aleramo, writer and poetess, and many others who wrote anonymously in the journal and only recently have been surely identified). Some of the ideas of the group have been popularized and appropriated by some fascist and nazi streams. Gandhi visited Rome under Mussolini and in Italy there were a big Indian students' meeting supported by Mussolini. The political empathy between Mussolini and the 2 Maharaja of Nepal at his time, between him and the major intellectuals and politicians in India and Bengal was reciprocal and well documented. (BTW, in Sept. 1930, VIII year of the Mussolinian era, the Italian export to India was as big as 1 billion and 300 million It. Liras). Useless (or not?) to remind the connections between Mussolini and Hitler. >>>> P. Robb, 1997, OUP book: "Savarkar expressed a certain attraction for European fascism. In 1938, the year after he became president of the Hindu Mahasabha, he congratulated Hitler during a public meeting in Delhi for having 'liberated' the Sudetans who shared the 'same blood and same tongue' as the Germans. At the same time, Hindu Outlook (the Hindu Mahasabha mouthpiece) and Mahratta (one of Tilak's newspapers, edited by N.C. Kelkar, an active Hindu Sabhaite) praised Franco and Mussolini as well as Hitler. Some Hindu Sabhaites had had direct contacts with European fascists since the early 1930s. When Moonje (Tilak's lieutenant at Nagpur, who became president of the Hindu Mahasabha in 1927) journeyed to London to attend the first Round table Conference, he went to Italy in order "to see the working of the Ballila movement", It seems that he met Hitler and had an interview with Mussolini, who was pleased to show him his military institutions". The internal colonistic and racial attitudes, postings of a one-month old entrant can be linked to the grounding s/he had in these camps with links to Nazis/Fascists. I can understand these racist modes of thoughts now. My New Year's prayer is that Let God spare India of the internal colonistic racism in the 21st century. Academic discussions from learned members are appreciated. Have a great 1999, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 1 15:59:34 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 07:59:34 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044449.23782.4071684133445553558.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For Mircea Eliade, the grand historian of religions' anti-semitic connections, pl. see: Nancy Harrowitz (ed.), Tainted Greatness: Antisemitism and Cultural Heroes, Temple univ. press, 1994 With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 1 16:08:48 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 08:08:48 -0800 Subject: Postmodernistic Study of Sanskrit texts? Message-ID: <161227044454.23782.12917343664316736292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reading Rita Gross, Buddhism after Patriarchy, SUNY. This is a feminist reconstruction of Buddhism. A beautiful study. Like this, has there been any attempts to view the Vedic material created by Indian priestly class from a Postmodernist perspective? Any citations? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU Fri Jan 1 16:03:56 1999 From: nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 10:03:56 -0600 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044452.23782.13553412943528869114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Splendid, I could not agree more. Greetings and regards -Narahari Achar Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > Has it ever been an issue in India? > > This is actually a question with more implications than one is likely to > suspect at first sight. The traditional Indian lack of concern for > chronology and dating is rooted in a particular world-view, viz. one in > which historicalness (in the usual Western sense: a strict serial dating > of one event after the other) was considered relatively unimportant. > Ancient Indians were perfectly capable of being strict in their > chronology of religious texts etc., if they had wanted to (cf. their > knowledge of astronomy and mathematics); they were apparently just not > interested. > > And these are precisely the things that mattered much more than strict > chronological dating. What mattered was what the individual believer > could do with an idea: what it meant for him / her, and not for some > detached, objective historian > > Returning to the Indology List: all these fierce quasi-historical > debates we have had here (the indigenous Aryans; Indus Valley things; > meat-eating in the Vedas; etc.) are largely a waste of time, because > they tend to be a conflation of two kinds of discussion which can > perfectly well, and should, be kept apart. > > > In actual life, there do exist traditional pandits > > who are also capable of a historical discussion. > > These are like modern zoo veterinarians. They can > > handle the elephant and also discuss its comparative > > anatomy. But I think that's a bonus. > > Absolutely right. And I consider myself fortunate that I know a few such > persons. > > -- > > Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Mysore (India) > e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Jan 1 05:00:18 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 10:30:18 +0530 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227044434.23782.4701719235661018818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy Misra wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > > > <<< > > > > I spent many decades in village India, interviewed > > several people all across India for years. > > On the New year's eve vein, let me suggest > to interview some more.. Ganesan: I think Misra wants to be interviewed too. :-) RZ From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Jan 1 06:22:57 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 11:52:57 +0530 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227044437.23782.11373913152303119095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan S. Raja wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > > Right here, on the Indology List, and in this thread, there was a list > > member who claimed that the Bhagavadgiitaa was written at the beginning > > of the Kaliyuga. On the basis of what? This is the kind of > > antihistorical attitude I was referring to. > > Anyone can say anything. But did anyone > take her/him seriously? Well, one doesn't know. :-) We have quite a mixed bag here on the List. > Has it ever been an issue in India? This is actually a question with more implications than one is likely to suspect at first sight. The traditional Indian lack of concern for chronology and dating is rooted in a particular world-view, viz. one in which historicalness (in the usual Western sense: a strict serial dating of one event after the other) was considered relatively unimportant. Ancient Indians were perfectly capable of being strict in their chronology of religious texts etc., if they had wanted to (cf. their knowledge of astronomy and mathematics); they were apparently just not interested. (Right away, we must realise that an expression like 'traditional Indian' is already quite crude. For instance, Jainas and Buddhists had a partly different view of the significance of chronology; hence the importance of the date of the Buddha for ancient Indian history). > (In a mythological sense, of course, > the Bhagavad Gita was indeed written > at the beginning of the Kaliyuga. > It's true in the same sense that "Siva > rides on a bull called Nandi"). And these are precisely the things that mattered much more than strict chronological dating. What mattered was what the individual believer could do with an idea: what it meant for him / her, and not for some detached, objective historian. > But if we discuss the origin of elephants, quite possibly > the mahout will tell us that they all descended from > Indra's elephant, Airavata. The mahout is not a reliable > source of information about the origin of elephants. > A pity, of course. But it merely means we should talk to > a zoologist instead. Very nice illustration. And the belief that the elephant is a descendent of Airavata might help the mahout to be a good mahout. > We face a serious problem only if zoology > professors teach that elephants were descended > from Indra's elephant, Airavata. And this is, unfortunately, how it has _become_ an issue in India (also among teachers). I suspect that the coming of the British, and the increased social prestige of their kind of religiosity, has a lot to do with this. I am sure we have all heard the (in my personal view incomprehensible) missionary argument that "Christianity represents the truth because Jesus was a historical person." So many things are historical; but this does not mean that all of them are equally meaningful for everyone. There resulted a clash of value systems: the Western preoccupation with history on the one hand, and on the other hand the traditional Indian ahistoricalness which does, however, indicate the value of matters (religious or otherwise cultural) by attributing a mythological ancientness to them. "The BhG is from the beginning of the Kaliyuga" etc. _cannot_ be compared with modern historical statements, because the presuppositions and intentions of such statements are radically different. Returning to the Indology List: all these fierce quasi-historical debates we have had here (the indigenous Aryans; Indus Valley things; meat-eating in the Vedas; etc.) are largely a waste of time, because they tend to be a conflation of two kinds of discussion which can perfectly well, and should, be kept apart. > In actual life, there do exist traditional pandits > who are also capable of a historical discussion. > These are like modern zoo veterinarians. They can > handle the elephant and also discuss its comparative > anatomy. But I think that's a bonus. Absolutely right. And I consider myself fortunate that I know a few such persons. -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From garzilli at SHORE.NET Fri Jan 1 13:29:46 1999 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 14:29:46 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044443.23782.16755415912395266055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: > > <<< Was surprised to find > that the grand historian of religion, Mircea Eliade had some > Nazi connections. Sorry to start the new year with this topic that is off topic. Just a punktualization:) The "Mircea Eliade's some nazi connections" is his contribution to the Italian group of Ur (Ur-Krur), which several intellectuals, in the years twenties and thirties, directly and indirectly took part to (such as Julius Evola, painter and philosopher, Emilio Servadio, psychoanalyst! Sibilla Aleramo, writer and poetess, and many others who wrote anonymously in the journal and only recently have been surely identified). Some of the ideas of the group have been popularized and appropriated by some fascist and nazi streams. Gandhi visited Rome under Mussolini and in Italy there were a big Indian students' meeting supported by Mussolini. The political empathy between Mussolini and the 2 Maharaja of Nepal at his time, between him and the major intellectuals and politicians in India and Bengal was reciprocal and well documented. (BTW, in Sept. 1930, VIII year of the Mussolinian era, the Italian export to India was as big as 1 billion and 300 million It. Liras). Useless (or not?) to remind the connections between Mussolini and Hitler. -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Jan 1 22:43:44 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 23:43:44 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Hindu traditional view Message-ID: <161227044469.23782.6962713532728505017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > [Lars Martin Fosse] > > The AIT is not simply based on the interpretation of the Vedas (if that is > > what you refer to as a group of religious hymns). The AIT is based on the > > combined interpretation of a vast material of a literary, linguistic and > > archaeological character, involving Iranian as well as Greek, Italic, > > Germanic, Slavonic, Baltic sources. In the final analysis, the AIT depends > > upon the interpretation of the Indo-European material as a totality. Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > I disagree. While some of the other evidence you cite might help > explain the theory of Indo-European linguistic and cultural influence, > it hardly has any bearing on the Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT). > > There is nothing in external historical sources that suggests an > invasion of India, and really nothing in the archaeological or > anthropological record either. I believe the archaeological record now > strongly shows that IVC was *not* overthrown by invaders from the North > or West. Also, there is no biological evidence to show a sudden > intrusion anywhere near the time of the downfall of IVC. There is, as far as I know, no account anywhere in the Indo-European area of Indo-Europeans establishing themselves in new abodes. If the I-E's came from South Russia, there is no tradition in the German area saying that they did so. Nor is there any tradition anywhere saying that they came from India (the out-of-India version). The original homeland of the Indo-Europeans is a matter of deduction, and has primarily been deduced on the basis of linguistic data. The linguistic and cultural data point quite clearly to somewhere between the Rhine and the Urals (east-west axis), the Baltic and the Kaspian (north-south axis). Exactly where is a much more complex question. It follows logically that the Indo-Europeans (or their language) must have "invaded" (or migrated to) South Asia. As for archaeology and biology, I don't think the last word has been said. There is a vast research literature on this not only in English, but also in German and French, where the various arguments have been discussed ad nauseam. I suggest that you familiarize yourself with this before you make any strong statements. The German research literature is particularly enlightening. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 2 16:01:56 1999 From: ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM (Asha Naidu) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 08:01:56 -0800 Subject: Information on sesame (tila) Message-ID: <161227044472.23782.1795521651025816237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would recommend, that you refer to the book "Indian Food A Historical Companion" by K.T.Achaya published by Oxford India Paperbacks in 1998 (first published in 1994 by Oxford University Press). ISBN 0 19 564416 6. I obtained my copy in California at Barnes & Noble for $16.00!! In case you are unable to obtain it, I quote from the book: 1. Page 17. At Harappa an unmistakable "lump of charred sesame" was found at a depth of about two metres (Referenced from M.S.Vats, Excavations at Harappa, Manager of Publications, Delhi, 1940, vol 1, p 466). 2. Page 31. The Rigveda mentions neither rice or wheat but only barley (yava); the Yajurveda has all three, besides a panicum cereal, an oilseeed (tila, sesame)... 3. page 33 A book is mentioned(M.S. Randhawa, A History of Agriculture in India, Indian Council of Agricultural Research, New Delhi, vol 1,1980, (a) p. 179 (b) p.195f (c) p 169) which is described as 'a well documented book has appeared on the foods and drinks that occur in those Sanskrit works, chronologically listed from the earliest times to about AD 1200'. Rice is mentioned as later dominating the Aryan food system was cooked with milk and sesame seeds(krsara), perhaps a forerunner of the later khichidi made from rice and dhal. 4. Page 45 Rice in the Southern Diet Rice was ofcourse mostly eaten boiled, but sometimes fried aromatics were sprinkled on it. Dressing with tamarind gave puli-kari (puli-sadam), and further with sesame seeds and sugar yielded chitrannam. (Referenced from F.R. Allchin, in P.J.Ucko and G.W.Dimbleby(eds), The Domestication and Exploitation of Plants and Animals, gerald Duckworth and Co. Pvt. ltd., New Delhi, 1969, page 323.) 5.page 36 A wild sesame seed, jartila, permitted as food to ascetics, is recorded in the Taittiriya Samhita.(Referenced from M.S. Randhawa at item 3 above). 6. Page 36 Sesame oilcake or sesame powder compounded with coarse rice flour and jaggery gave the tasty fried dish shashkuli, the tilkut of today.(B.B.Lal, 'The World's earliest Agricultural Field', Science Age, Bombay, 1983, vol 1, no 3/4, October, p229.)(H.D. Sankalia, 'Some aspects of Prehistoric Technology in India',Indian National Science Academy, New Delhi, 1970, (a) pp45 - 51 (b) p 13.). 7. page 37 Much later the physician Charaka recommends ghee for frying in autumn, animal body fats in spring, and oil(with special commendation of sesame oil) in the rainy season. 8. Page 37 The sugarcane is not mentioned in the Rigveda but occurs frequently in all the Samhitas and its chewing is mentioned in the Atharvaveda. Guda was the base for numerous sweet preparations. Mixed with it sesame seeds were shaped to yield palala... 9. Page 82 Sushrutha's classification is fifteen-fold, and includes shali, shastika and vrihi(all rices) as three of the classes, and yava(barley), shimbi(horsegram) and tila (sesame) as separate classes.(Reference - Priyadaranjan Ray, Hirendra Nath Gupta, and M.roy, Susruta Samhita: A Scientific Synopsis, Indian National Science Academy, New Delhi, 1980. 10. Page 86 From curds came khada(perhaps resembling the khadi of the present) by acidification with kapittha (the wood apple fruit) and changeri (the Indian sorrel leaf, amrul in Hindi, Oxalis corniculata), followed by seasoning with pepper and jeera. The same product with oil, sesame seeds and urad pulse added to it was termed kambalika by Sushrutha. 11. Page 93 Finally let us listen as Annaji, writing about 1600 in Kannada, describes a domestic meal: ...... He also describes the following scene in a sweetmeat shop, listing by name several items: For those who cannot command these delicacies at home the sweetmeat shopoffers a variety of delights. there is karrajjige, a sweet made from maida flour; athirasa fried in ghee, urad based vadai; idlis as fair as the moon; sweet sesame balls.... 12. page 104 Utensils of the Vedic Sacrifice akaraphalika: snake shaped board, one arm long, on which sesame seeds are offered in the sacrifice. 13. Page 140 A century ago, the everyday foods of Bihar were meticulously recorded in considerable detail by a British official. Tilauri were balls of urad or mung with sesame seed, dried in the sun and deep fried... (Reference - G.A. Grierson, Bihar Peasant Life (2nd edition 1885), Governement Printing Press, Bihar and Orissa, Patna 1926, p345. 14. page 142 Ktesias (416 -398 BC), court physician and historian based his Indika on his talks with Persian official who had themselves visited India, and with seven Indians, including 2 women, whom he had met at the Persian court of Susa. Both coconut and sesame oil were in use.(Reference - J.W.McCrindle, Ancient India as described by Ktesias the Kuidian (1882), Manohar reprints, Delhi, repr, 1976, pp 16, 21, 23, 30, 70. 15. page 144 Strabo of Ameseia(65 BC - 25 AD) wrote his famous Geography.....During the rainy season, .... flax millet and sesamum were sown. Please note all 16 points are taken from the book by K.T. Achaya mentioned in the begining. I have given relevant quotes from this book. I have not actually checked the references quoted therein - you may wish to do so. Good Luck!! Asha ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jan 2 02:32:49 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 08:02:49 +0530 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990101070742.0086f100@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227044483.23782.1284043776297208093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:07 AM 1/1/99 +0500, you wrote: >Please give some references. > >regards, > >sarma. >At 07:36 AM 12/31/98 +0530, K.S.Arjunwadkar wrote: >>Thus, at times, he dubs his opponent who solely relies on >>logic/reason as a bull without a tail and horns, ridicules him as speaking >>with an unrestrained mouth, and so on. While concluding his criticism of >>the philosophical doctrines of the Buddha, he remarks that the Buddha was >>either insane or one who hated the mankind to the extent of taking pleasure >>in misguiding it. I can, if required, quote from his works to support my >>statements. >> > Jan 2, 99 Dear Member, Thank you for your response. A few references: Brahmasuutrabhaasya II.2.28; II.2.32; Brhad-aaranyaka-bhaasya II.1.20. Still more can be found if searched. KSA From george9252 at MSN.COM Sat Jan 2 14:50:39 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 09:50:39 -0500 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227044467.23782.14011719607685350446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his BRAHMASUTRA-BHASHYA, Adhyaya II, Pada 2, Section 32, Shamkara writes the following: "From whatever points of view the Buddhist systems are tested with regard to their plausibility, they cave in on all sides, like the walls of a well dug in sandy soil. [Buddhist philosophy] has, in fact, no foundation whatever to rest upon, and thus it is foolish to adopt it as a guide in the practical concerns of life. Moreover, the Buddha, by presenting three mutually contradictory systems of philosophy -- teaching respectively the reality of the external world, the reality of consciousness-only, and general emptiness -- has himself made it clear either that he was a man given to making incoherent assertions, or else that hatred of all beings moved him to propound absurd doctrines that would thoroughly confuse all who might take him seriously. Thus . . . , the Buddha?s doctrine must be entirely disregarded by all those who have a regard for their own happiness." When Shamkara focuses his analytical and critical dialectic on his philosophical opponents, he can be very tough! -----Original Message----- From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 8:48 PM Subject: Re: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya >Please give some references. > >regards, > >sarma. >At 07:36 AM 12/31/98 +0530, K.S.Arjunwadkar wrote: >>Thus, at times, he dubs his opponent who solely relies on >>logic/reason as a bull without a tail and horns, ridicules him as speaking >>with an unrestrained mouth, and so on. While concluding his criticism of >>the philosophical doctrines of the Buddha, he remarks that the Buddha was >>either insane or one who hated the mankind to the extent of taking pleasure >>in misguiding it. I can, if required, quote from his works to support my >>statements. >> > From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jan 2 06:44:08 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 12:14:08 +0530 Subject: Vedic Anatolia, 7500 B.C. Message-ID: <161227044457.23782.13110416123469480069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > S. Kak, On the classification of Indic languages, > Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, 75, p. 185-195, > 1994 > > Just before the Section 6. Conclusions: > "The striking thing > about the head is that it is clean shaven except for a long tuft at > the top that looks strikingly similar in style to the zikhA that a > student wore in the Vedic times. B. G. Siddharth [22] has taken this > similarity to mean that this Anatolian civilization was Vedic. [...] > > Siddharth and Kak identify Anatolia of 7500 B.C. as Vedic > civilization. Any comments? I suppose nothing was said about whether there are traces of the *Veda* in that Vedic civilisation. :-) RZ From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jan 2 17:24:08 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 12:24:08 -0500 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: <199812310247.HAA04564@giaspn01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227044460.23782.7364902703237947887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1? Re:the purely "academic query" whether Adi Shankara was a "liberated soul"- let us consider what a liberated soul is supposed to do till the soul leaves the mortal coils- retire to acorner and spend the time in meditation- meditating on what and for what purpose- he is after all a liberated soul- or vegetate and wwither away till the hangers-on bury him and deify him? seers emphasize only how steadfast one should adhere to the path and how steafastedly one should avoid certain deeds and action if liberation is to be achieved- nowhere one comes across how aliberated soul should his life perhaps they are no more bound by any routines. How about Ramakrishna who lived in last century who is generally considered to be aliberated soul or Ramana of this century -How do they compare with Shankara in the sort of life to be led by a liberated soul? Krish. From george9252 at MSN.COM Sat Jan 2 23:04:49 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 18:04:49 -0500 Subject: Fw: Re: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227044474.23782.220232795612920391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded. -----Original Message----- From: George Cronk To: Indology Date: Saturday, January 02, 1999 9:50 AM Subject: Re: Re: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya >In his BRAHMASUTRA-BHASHYA, Adhyaya II, Pada 2, Section 32, Shamkara writes >the following: "From whatever points of view the Buddhist systems are >tested with regard to their plausibility, they cave in on all sides, like >the walls of a well dug in sandy soil. [Buddhist philosophy] has, in fact, >no foundation whatever to rest upon, and thus it is foolish to adopt it as a >guide in the practical concerns of life. Moreover, the Buddha, by >presenting three mutually contradictory systems of philosophy -- teaching >respectively the reality of the external world, the reality of >consciousness-only, and general emptiness -- has himself made it clear >either that he was a man given to making incoherent assertions, or else that >hatred of all beings moved him to propound absurd doctrines that would >thoroughly confuse all who might take him seriously. Thus . . . , the >Buddha?s doctrine must be entirely disregarded by all those who have a >regard for their own happiness." > >When Shamkara focuses his analytical and critical dialectic on his >philosophical opponents, he can be very tough! > >-----Original Message----- >From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 8:48 PM >Subject: Re: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya > > >>Please give some references. >> >>regards, >> >>sarma. >>At 07:36 AM 12/31/98 +0530, K.S.Arjunwadkar wrote: >>>Thus, at times, he dubs his opponent who solely relies on >>>logic/reason as a bull without a tail and horns, ridicules him as speaking >>>with an unrestrained mouth, and so on. While concluding his criticism of >>>the philosophical doctrines of the Buddha, he remarks that the Buddha was >>>either insane or one who hated the mankind to the extent of taking >pleasure >>>in misguiding it. I can, if required, quote from his works to support my >>>statements. >>> >> > > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 3 00:09:07 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 19:09:07 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044477.23782.1615305613056388431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/1/99 4:27:03 AM Central Standard Time, yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU writes: > Dear Ashish, thank you for so clear and honest formulation of the > concept which is really basic for your favourite Out-of-India "theory". But > can not you see yourself that the concept which helds that ALL Europeans are > scoundrels and politically (or otherwise?) biased falsifiers of facts, is > racist? And it can not be a base for any scientific theory, but only for > the racist, nationalistic propaganda. In September 1998, Dr. Subhash Kak participated in a seminar at Southern Methodist University along with Madhav Deshpande, Gregory Possehl, Andre? Sjoberg, and Michael Witzel. After the conference he wrote a paper and solicited my comments. I sent him detailed comments on many points in his paper. I am presenting below my comments with respect to just one point. Dr. Kak had written the following: <> I thought Kak wrote this because he did not have the information about Tamil texts, and I thought when I give him the facts, he will take them into account. So, Iwrote the following. <> But to my disappoint, I find that in his final version of the article, "Is the Aryan/Dravidian Binary Valid?" at the web site http://www.ee.lsu.edu/kak/index.html, Subhash Kak still continues to say the following. "Indian texts do not use the term Arya or Aryan in a linguistic sense, only in terms of culture." Although the references I have given could have been easily checked, I do not see any change in Kak's statement before I gave him the facts and after. (When he did not use the references given to him in response to his solicitation of comments, one cannot complain that he did not consult a detailed discussion of the concept of Aryan by M. M. Deshpande in Sanskrit & Prakrit: Sociolinguistic Issues, pp.9-14) Facts seem to be irrelevant to the formation of "good scientific" models/theories in the Hindutva/Indigenous Aryan worldview. But, then, of course Kak says the following in his article: "Bad intent should not turn anyone away from good science. Why isn't PIE good science? It looks reasonable enough: If there are biological origins then there should be linguistic origins as well. And why don't we believe that the nature of language tells us something about culture? If Europeans have been dominant in recent history, then why don't we accept it as a characteristic of the European? If Europe was dominant in ancient times then the origin of the PIE must be in the European sphere from where the energy of its early speakers carried them to the far corners of Asia and allowed them to impose their language on the native speakers. There are several problems with the idea of PIE. First, it is based on the hypothesis that languages are defined as fixed entities and they evolve in a biological sense. In reality, a language area is a complex, graded system of several languages and dialects of a family. The degree of homogeneity in a language area is a reflection of the linkages, or interaction within the area. For a language distributed widely in the ancient world, one would expect several dialects. There would be no standard proto-language." Now consider what a reputed Dravidian linguist M. Andronov has said on the issue more than 30 years ago. In his preface to the publication, "Two Lectures on the Historicity of Language Families", (Department of Linguistics Publication No. 15, Annamalai University, 1968), Dr. M. Andronov said, "The notion of the genetic relationship of languages has been introduced by comparative linguistics. At first, when language was regarded as a biological organism, the genetic relationship was understood in its literal sense. Later the naturalistic conception of language was discarded, and this expression has got to be used figuratively to denote the common origin of linguistic forms. In the course of time, as suspicion was growing that the Proto-language and the treelike scheme of the development of language families were nothing more than a scholarly construction which probably never had a real correlate in actual history, the notion of gentic relationship of languages started losing much of its concrete meaning. The situation was aggravated by the discovery of the fact that language is a system. The new approach to the understanding of the nature of language compelled linguists to look at the problem of genetic relationship from a new point of view. Now it had to be treated not in terms of common origin of isolated linguistic forms but in terms of the common origin of language systems as a whole. As the latter include elements of heterogenous origin, the modern linguistic theory, strictly speaking, rules out the possibility of tracing a language or a group of languages to one parent language. In practice, however, the tradition is followed and linguistic relationship (probably for the simplicity of treatment) is generally reduced to the likeness of a small number of the most stable and conservative elements of the language structure. The latter, however stable they may seem within the limits of time open for investigation, do not differ in principle from the rest of language elements and similarly are liable to erosion and substitution in thecourse of the evolution of the whole system. In any case the historicity of linguistic relationship is a matter of fact, and one may be expected to raise a question of how language families are formed, develop and disintegrate." Andronov began his first lecture, "Dravidian and Aryan: From the Typological Similarity to the Similarity of Forms" by saying, "It is generally accepted at present that Dravidian languages served as a substratum, underlying the Old Indo-Aryan language, when the latter appeared on the Indian soil in the first half of the second millennium B.C., and that the whole course of the subsequent development of both Indo-Aryan and Dravidian was largely influenced and predetermined by this circumstance. Their mutual influence on each other, most probably, took shape of bilingualism of a great portion of themingling peoples. The numerical superiority was, obviously, on the side of the indigenous population, which is testified by the rapid change and complete dissolution of the the ethnic type of the newcomers. One can suggest also that in the first period of contact bilinguals were recruited chiefly from the native population." It is clear that linguists have addressed the issue of the nature of the proto-language in relation to the South Asian situation more than 30 years ago. In the SMU seminar Dr. Sjoberg cited Dr. Andronov?s views on the issue. But still the Hindutva protogonists continue to blame Max Muller and linguistics. I had the pleasure of meeting Subhash Kak at the Seminar. As a person he is very nice and courteous. But, his theory and methodology, are neither innocuous nor "good science" as they seem to be. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 3 00:16:33 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 19:16:33 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044480.23782.17023877356775396834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/2/99 7:10:08 PM EST, I wrote: << But to my disappoint, I find that in his final version of the article, "Is the Aryan/Dravidian Binary Valid?" at the web site http://www.ee.lsu.edu/kak/index.html, Subhash Kak still continues to say the following. >> Sorry. In the above the word "disappoint" should have been "disappointment". Regards S. Palaniappan From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jan 3 02:30:43 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 21:30:43 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters In-Reply-To: <368C5662.79656571@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227044488.23782.9897576505039162058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > > > On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > > > > Ganesan: I think Misra wants to be interviewed too. And a few others.. Good project for the year. - BM From george9252 at MSN.COM Sun Jan 3 03:27:20 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 22:27:20 -0500 Subject: Problem Message-ID: <161227044490.23782.17291969909720847625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been trying to post a message to the Indology users' list, and it won't go through. I think this happened once before, but I can't remember what the solution is. Something about my personal email address? I am Dr. George Cronk, george9252 at msn.com. Help? From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Jan 3 01:53:01 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 01:53:01 +0000 Subject: [Admin] Web site update Message-ID: <161227044485.23782.11937672335983111091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I have updated the INDOLOGY web interface for those whose browsers support frames (for others there is no change). The address is the same as ever, namely: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html The content is substantially the same as in late December, although I have taken the opportunity to overhaul some pages, and check some links, etc. Amongst the small number of significant content-updates, I have added much improved images of the Wellcome manuscript of Patanjali's Yogasutras, and I have also added a couple of leaves from a Sanskrit MS of Bhaskara's Lilavati. See under "Digital images...". All the best for the new year! Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 3 12:29:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 04:29:07 -0800 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227044496.23782.3897892370851546499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > > > On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, N. Ganesan wrote: > > > > Ganesan: I think Misra wants to be interviewed too. >And a few others.. >Good project for the year. >- BM As per your wish -NG ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 3 12:37:04 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 04:37:04 -0800 Subject: Impulse to adorn Message-ID: <161227044498.23782.2717472701657245640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< In "The Wonder that was India" Basham writes of Indian plastic arts that they exhibit "horror vacuii" or "fear of blank spaces". Of course, this is a rather perjorative way of putting it. >>> There is an ongoing exhibition at Bard Graduate Center, New York till Jan. 31, 1999 on Indian Jewelry curated by Oppi Untracht. He was first inspired by a jewlry, textiles, crafts exhibition in Museum of Modern Art, 1954. Since then he is studying Indian jewels. About 1954 exhibition, Untracht says: "one day the collection disappeared, and I learned that it had descended to an underworld storage room to make space for renovations. Now I am sure it was reclaimed by Nagas, those mythological Indian snakes who rule the nether regions and whose duty it is to protect the gemstones and true jewels of India." "India is really a living museum without walls.. It is also rare in that it has had a history of atleast 5000 years of consistent production of jewellery. I don't think there is any country in the world that holds such a record... Yet, unfortunately, fine old pieces of jewellery are hard to come by because those comprising precious metal and gemstones are often melted. It is a process that parallels the Hindu concept of the eternal cycle of creation, preservation and destruction through which everything passes". (India today, Dec. '98) Any catalog or website on this exhibit? Some more references: 1) M. Postel, Ear ornaments of ancient India, Bombay, 1989 2) Susan Stronge, The jewels of India, Marg, 1995 3) J. Filliozat, P. Z. Pattabiramin, Parures divines du Sud de l'Inde, 1966 4) E. A.Seguy, Les lacques du Coromandel, Paris, 1924 5) Choodamani Nandagopal, Temple treasures, 2 v., Bangalore 1997 6) Nandita Krishna, Arts and Crafts of Tamil Nadu, 1992, Mapin 7) S. Stronge, A golden treasury: jewellery from the Indian subcontinent, 1992 8) Momin Latif, Mughal jewels, 1982 9) Oppi Untracht, Traditional jewelry of India, Thames & Hudson, 1997 Regards, N. Ganesan <<< Pl. see: 1) The impulse to adorn: studies in traditional Indian architecture, Marg, 34, 4, 1982 2) Nirad C. Chaudhuri, Culture in the vanity bag, being an essay on clothing and adornment in passing and abiding India, Jaico, 1976 3) Kamala Dongerkery, Jewelry and personal adornment in India, ICCR, Delhi, 1970 4) Alamkara: 5000 years of Indian art, Exhibition at National museum, Singapore, 1994 (Mapin publishers) >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 3 12:50:17 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 04:50:17 -0800 Subject: Indian Gemmology Message-ID: <161227044501.23782.94447523953730944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< I'm going to study Indian treatises on Gemmology, and with this aim I have already collected some basilar books edited in the last century by western scholars. Moreover, I got also several articles on the subject published on the Indian Journal of History of Science. Would anyone suggest other books or articles on this subject? Many thanks in advance. Riccardo Garbini. >>>> Please inform me on anything you find on vaiDuurya, 'cat's eye' gemstone. Its word meaning, possible derivations, occurences in Indian literature, where these are unearthed, ... The following may be of some help: 1) S. R. N. Murthy, Gemmological studies in Sanskrit texts: English rendering with notes on gemmology in five Sanskrit texts. Bangalore, 2 v. 2) Raj Roop Tank, Indian gemmology, Jaipur, 1971, 134 p. 3) Ricahrd Brown, Ancient astrological gemstones and talismans, Bangkok, 1995 4) Donatella Mazzeo, India: la corte e il tempio 5) A. M. Ferguson, All about gold, gems, and pearls (also minerals generally) in Ceylon and Southern India, London, 1888, 428 p. 6) L. A. Narayana Iyer, Indian precious stones, Calcutta: Geological survey of India, 1942, 54 p. With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 3 14:50:55 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 06:50:55 -0800 Subject: Information on sesame (tila) Message-ID: <161227044503.23782.9861792054179479598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ms. Asha naidu wrote: <<< I would recommend, that you refer to the book "Indian Food A Historical Companion" by K.T.Achaya published by Oxford India Paperbacks in 1998 (first published in 1994 by Oxford University Press). ... 3. page 33 A book is mentioned(M.S. Randhawa, A History of Agriculture in India, Indian Council of Agricultural Research, New Delhi, vol 1,1980, (a) p. 179 (b) p.195f (c) p 169) which is described as 'a well documented book has appeared on the foods and drinks that occur in those Sanskrit works, chronologically listed from the earliest times to about AD 1200'. >>> Just like works of George Hart, Martha Selby, ... comparing Tamil love poems to Gatha saptasati, there is abundant untouched material on food in Tamil sangam texts. Acharya's book is great, even there the Dravidian words are visible. But, Acharya does not have enough Tamil to read sangam texts and commentaries. A companion volume to KTA can be done. He gives the name of the food manual done in Chalukya court. (bojana kutUhala?) A Kashmiri poet wrote the biography of a Chalukyan king. 100s of references of tiger skin dress on "Siva occur in Tamil from 5th century AD. Except MBh. calling 'Siva vyAgra, not much connecting "Siva and tiger skin. It occurs in Tantrasaara. Its author, abhinavagupta himself says in Tantraloka that many 'Saivaite themes come from kumarikAdvIpa (extreme South India). In tEvAram, many citations occur in all forms of "siva mUrtis about female earring on male god, "siva. About 20 different 'Siva mUrtis in Chola bronze masterpieces, have female earring on male 'Siva (cf. Manifestations of "siva). This appears rare in North India (I have to check more). It occurs one or two times only when "siva is with umA. ardhanArizvara or "siva standing/sitting caressing umA in North India prior to 9th century. The Paala-inspired Nepali art, especially Malla dynasty (13th cent. AD) etc., sculptures of "siva sitting with umA has definitely female earring on 'siva. Along with DakshiNAmUrti, Somaskanda is found only in Tamil Nadu. Look at the wall of any 'Siva shrine of Pallava times or Chola masterpieces. This is because Murukan-Skanda is special for Tamils/Dravidians. It seems Murukan was present in IVC. Kumaaragupta only has sculptures in North India for Kaarttikeya. Is KumArasambhavam a product of the Gupta age? I think Kashmiri Saivaites and their interaction with Saiva SiddhAntins of the Dravidian South takes solidifies "Saivaite ideas in Sankrit. In MatsyapurANam, ADi is the demon of sex doing mischief with PaarvatI in MatsyapuraaNa (the son of andhakaasura, himself a dancer and son of 'Siva, the great dancer). Does ADi has anything to do with Tamil "aaDu" - to dance?? In all Chola inscriptions, naTarAja is "aaDavalaan", the dance expert, king. Also, "siva is "kuuttu aaDi". More later, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jan 3 02:19:11 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 07:49:11 +0530 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227044533.23782.8187285148906347623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To Vanitha Krishnamurthi Jan 3, 99 The logical stand taken in raising the original question can apply to the cases of Raamakrishna and Ramana (some would like to add the name of Vivekaananda too) as well, for it concerns the basic contradiction between the concept of Mukti and involvement in worldly activities. Let me repeat that this stand does not imply an attempt to devaluate the social work of the personalities concerned. No amount of ingenuity in attempting a sort of reconciliation between the two aspects can invalidate the original question. KSA From das at NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 3 17:06:59 1999 From: das at NETCOM.COM (Das Devaraj) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 09:06:59 -0800 Subject: Size of Hindu scriptures Message-ID: <161227044508.23782.4777511372435183842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anybody tell me how big (in size) the Hindu scriptures are? By scriptures I mean things like vedas, upanishads etc. The size can be comparative (like X% of britannia encyclopedia or some other book) or absolute (X number of pages or Y megabytes etc). If you find the above definition of scriptures lacking in rigor, please by all means supplement the above definition (and provide an answer!) Wishing you all the best for 1999. das From george9252 at MSN.COM Sun Jan 3 16:21:15 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 11:21:15 -0500 Subject: Problem Message-ID: <161227044506.23782.1148647420363312669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not really correct. All MSN accounts IN GERMANY have had to be changed because MSN sold out to another company in Deutschland. But MSN is still the internet and email provider for MSN accounts outside of Germany. -----Original Message----- From: Rolf Koch To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 6:54 AM Subject: Re: Problem >I thought MSN does never work from beginning of the year 1999. >According to my information: MSN stopped as Internetprovider in August 1998. >The Email accounts stopped at 12/31/98. > >George Cronk wrote: > >> I have been trying to post a message to the Indology users' list, and it >> won't go through. I think this happened once before, but I can't remember >> what the solution is. Something about my personal email address? >> >> I am Dr. George Cronk, george9252 at msn.com. >> >> Help? > From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sun Jan 3 09:01:38 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 12:01:38 +0300 Subject: correction Message-ID: <161227044538.23782.13358588002553644344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Correction to my own posting dated Dec. 31 (really posted on Jan. 1): > If we change (which is absolutely necessary) the AIT for AMT (Aryan >Migration theory) - the exhaustively full answer has been given in the last >posting by R.Zydenbos. It was the posting by Lars Martin Fosse. Excuse me, please Yaroslav Vassilkov From roheko at MERKUR.NET Sun Jan 3 11:43:38 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 12:43:38 +0100 Subject: Problem Message-ID: <161227044493.23782.2778437520437125963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought MSN does never work from beginning of the year 1999. According to my information: MSN stopped as Internetprovider in August 1998. The Email accounts stopped at 12/31/98. George Cronk wrote: > I have been trying to post a message to the Indology users' list, and it > won't go through. I think this happened once before, but I can't remember > what the solution is. Something about my personal email address? > > I am Dr. George Cronk, george9252 at msn.com. > > Help? From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 3 18:06:11 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 13:06:11 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227044511.23782.16096610676809219753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his article "Interpreting vAkyapadIya 2.486 Historically (Part 3)", in Paninian Studies: Professor S. D. Joshi Felicitation Volume, 1991, Ashok Aklujkar tries to identify the location of "parvata" from whom/where candrAcArya and others obtained and revived the mahAbHaSya tradition. In the course of this he says, "On the basis of rAja-taraGgiNi (RT in abbreviation) verse 1.176, which is related in content to the VP verse we are discussing, Varma identifies parvata with King Abhimanyu of Kashmir (and also with the land of Kashmir; see note 2.) This is patently absurd. According to the context of 486, vyakaraNAgamaH...dAkSiNAtyeSu vyavasthitaH, parvata must be in the South (3.3). A king of Kashmir (or the Kashmir country) is hardly likely to have been viewed as Southern". Here Aklujkar refers to note 3. Note 3 reads as follows: 3. (a) Any directional adjective like dAkSiNAtya 'southern' is relative in its application, for what is southern to one user can very well be northern to another. However, it is reasonable to assume that in most Classical Indian uses of dAkSiNAtya the reference would be to persons or objects of the dakSiNa-patha unless a further specification is available in the context (Sircar 1960:172, n.2). Another consideration one should keep in mind in the case of VP 2.486 is that, as its author belonged to the pANinian tradition of Sanskrit grammar, his understanding of dAkSiNAtya is not likely to be very different from that of pataJjali (Kielhorn's ed., vol. 1, p. 8), who indicates that the author of the vArttika yathA laukika-vaidikeSu was a dAkSiNAtya (Cardona 1976: 268-69). The third helpful consideration in ascertaining the common meaning of dAkSiNAtya in the Classical period is the remark by several authors to the effect that the word cora/caura in the language of the dAkSiNAtyas means odana 'cooked rice' not thief; cf. prabhA-candra, nyAya- kumuda-candra, p. 547; jayantabhaTTa, nyAya-maJjarI, p. 242; and abhinava- gupta, ttattva-viveka on parA-triMzikA 5-9ab, p. 125, who distinguishes between saindhavas and dAkSiNAtyas. With reference to the meaning of the same cora, vAdi-deva-sUri (syAd-vAda-ratnAkara, p. 703) distinguishes between gurjaras and drAviDas; the latter must obviously be dAkSiNAtyas in his view. Probably zrIdhara (nyAya-kandali, p. 215) also has a relevant observation to offer in this case, although I cannot verify the reference at present." Then in section (b) of note 3 Aklujkar gives references for dakSiNA-patha. Now the word cora obviously refers to Dravidian cORu. (I have discussed the Ta. enunciative "u" and Sanskrit "a" in another posting) Regarding cORu, DEDR has the following entry 2897 Ta. cORu boiled rice, pith; cORRi pith of trees; con2Ri boiled rice. Ma. cORu boiled rice, food, livelihood, brain, marrow, pith. To.twI.R cooked food. Thus, according to DEDR, the form cORu occurs only in Tamil-Malayalam. It does not occur in Telugu. This fact is important from several angles. It deals with the enunciative vowel problem. It also shows that abhinava-gupta and other Kashmirian authors were very familiar with Tamil usages. (If I remember right rAjataraGgiNi also mentions the presence of a Dravidian sorcerer in the court of a Kashmir king. This has important ramifications for the relationship between Tamil and Kashmir versions of zaivism, the history of aesthetic theory, etc.) It looks as if, in Classical usage, dAkSiNAtyas referred to Tamil speakers and not just south Indians in general. Also, this means that the Kashmirians believed that the Paninian tradition was revived from a source in Tamilnadu. Why did this belief differ from that of TIkA which Aklujkar believes refers to zrIparvata in Andhra as the possible place from where candrAcArya obtained the mahAbhASya? A. S. Ramanatha Ayyar, editor of South Indian Inscriptions Volume 14, says "ten2n2avan2 tamizavEL, an officer of this king, is eulogized for his scholarship in Sanskrit and Tamil in a fragmentary inscription in Tamil verse (No. 87). He is described as a minister well-versed in the vEdas, vEdAGgas, the different works in Sanskrit, Law, purANa, muttamiz (the three branches of Tamil learning, viz., iyal or literature, izai or music and nATaka) and pAtaJjalam (i.e. the original work of pataJjali)." Considering the fact the officer was a non-brahmin, his mastery of mahAbhASya indicates that around mid-10th century AD, the pANinian tradition was flourishing so much in southern Tamilnadu that even non-brahmins were well-versed in it. I do not know if such a tradition was prevalent in Andhra. Any information from scholars in Telugu and Sanskrit will be appreciated. Regards S. Palaniappan From george9252 at MSN.COM Sun Jan 3 20:03:42 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 15:03:42 -0500 Subject: Too Many Postings? Message-ID: <161227044513.23782.7711541922212045722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Recently, I have had a bit of trouble posting messages to the list. As a result, I may have posted a particular message too many times. It was a quotation from Shamkara's BRAHMASUTRA BHASHYA, Adhyaya II, Pada 2, Section 32 (in which he is sharply critical of the Buddha and Buddhism). If you received this message more than once, please forgive me! Dr. George Cronk Bergen Community College Paramus, NJ 07652 From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Jan 3 11:54:36 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 16:54:36 +0500 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: <000e01be365f$44e7fd80$b976ffd0@MSN/george9252> Message-ID: <161227044516.23782.7972392215863552227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here the reference seems to be to sarvAsthivAdins (vaibhASikAs), vijnAnavAdins and zUnyavAdins. This is hardly an attack by Sankara on Buddha as a person but an attack on the later schools of Buddhism. Insteaad of refuting them individually Sankara takes the easy way out. He heckles them for their lack of unanimity about what is the teaching of Buddha. regards, sarma. At 09:50 AM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >In his BRAHMASUTRA-BHASHYA, Adhyaya II, Pada 2, Section 32, Shamkara writes >the following: "From whatever points of view the Buddhist systems are >tested with regard to their plausibility, they cave in on all sides, like >the walls of a well dug in sandy soil. [Buddhist philosophy] has, in fact, >no foundation whatever to rest upon, and thus it is foolish to adopt it as a >guide in the practical concerns of life. Moreover, the Buddha, by >presenting three mutually contradictory systems of philosophy -- teaching >respectively the reality of the external world, the reality of >consciousness-only, and general emptiness -- has himself made it clear >either that he was a man given to making incoherent assertions, or else that >hatred of all beings moved him to propound absurd doctrines that would >thoroughly confuse all who might take him seriously. Thus . . . , the >Buddha?s doctrine must be entirely disregarded by all those who have a >regard for their own happiness." > >When Shamkara focuses his analytical and critical dialectic on his >philosophical opponents, he can be very tough! > >-----Original Message----- >From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 8:48 PM >Subject: Re: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya > > >>Please give some references. >> >>regards, >> >>sarma. >>At 07:36 AM 12/31/98 +0530, K.S.Arjunwadkar wrote: >>>Thus, at times, he dubs his opponent who solely relies on >>>logic/reason as a bull without a tail and horns, ridicules him as speaking >>>with an unrestrained mouth, and so on. While concluding his criticism of >>>the philosophical doctrines of the Buddha, he remarks that the Buddha was >>>either insane or one who hated the mankind to the extent of taking >pleasure >>>in misguiding it. I can, if required, quote from his works to support my >>>statements. >>> >> > > From george9252 at MSN.COM Sun Jan 3 22:54:22 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 17:54:22 -0500 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227044518.23782.13022562665095949010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This quotation follows many, many sections in which Shamkara DOES take on the Realists, the Idealists, and the Voidists one by one, and in detail (except for Voidism, to which he gives unduly short shrift). And he DOES say "the Buddha" here. Shouldn't we take the text for what it says? -----Original Message----- From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya Here the reference seems to be to sarvAsthivAdins (vaibhASikAs), vijnAnavAdins and zUnyavAdins. This is hardly an attack by Sankara on Buddha as a person but an attack on the later schools of Buddhism. Insteaad of refuting them individually Sankara takes the easy way out. He heckles them for their lack of unanimity about what is the teaching of Buddha. regards, sarma. At 09:50 AM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >In his BRAHMASUTRA-BHASHYA, Adhyaya II, Pada 2, Section 32, Shamkara writes >the following: "From whatever points of view the Buddhist systems are >tested with regard to their plausibility, they cave in on all sides, like >the walls of a well dug in sandy soil. [Buddhist philosophy] has, in fact, >no foundation whatever to rest upon, and thus it is foolish to adopt it as a >guide in the practical concerns of life. Moreover, the Buddha, by >presenting three mutually contradictory systems of philosophy -- teaching >respectively the reality of the external world, the reality of >consciousness-only, and general emptiness -- has himself made it clear >either that he was a man given to making incoherent assertions, or else that >hatred of all beings moved him to propound absurd doctrines that would >thoroughly confuse all who might take him seriously. Thus . . . , the >Buddha?s doctrine must be entirely disregarded by all those who have a >regard for their own happiness." > >When Shamkara focuses his analytical and critical dialectic on his >philosophical opponents, he can be very tough! > >-----Original Message----- >From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 8:48 PM >Subject: Re: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya > > >>Please give some references. >> >>regards, >> >>sarma. >>At 07:36 AM 12/31/98 +0530, K.S.Arjunwadkar wrote: >>>Thus, at times, he dubs his opponent who solely relies on >>>logic/reason as a bull without a tail and horns, ridicules him as speaking >>>with an unrestrained mouth, and so on. While concluding his criticism of >>>the philosophical doctrines of the Buddha, he remarks that the Buddha was >>>either insane or one who hated the mankind to the extent of taking >pleasure >>>in misguiding it. I can, if required, quote from his works to support my >>>statements. >>> >> > > From george9252 at MSN.COM Sun Jan 3 23:04:36 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 18:04:36 -0500 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227044521.23782.11883330262317310886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One more point on the foregoing: I think that Shamkara is wrong to attribute to the Buddha three mutually exclusive philosophical perspectives. But he does seem to do so. -----Original Message----- From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya Here the reference seems to be to sarvAsthivAdins (vaibhASikAs), vijnAnavAdins and zUnyavAdins. This is hardly an attack by Sankara on Buddha as a person but an attack on the later schools of Buddhism. Insteaad of refuting them individually Sankara takes the easy way out. He heckles them for their lack of unanimity about what is the teaching of Buddha. regards, sarma. At 09:50 AM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >In his BRAHMASUTRA-BHASHYA, Adhyaya II, Pada 2, Section 32, Shamkara writes >the following: "From whatever points of view the Buddhist systems are >tested with regard to their plausibility, they cave in on all sides, like >the walls of a well dug in sandy soil. [Buddhist philosophy] has, in fact, >no foundation whatever to rest upon, and thus it is foolish to adopt it as a >guide in the practical concerns of life. Moreover, the Buddha, by >presenting three mutually contradictory systems of philosophy -- teaching >respectively the reality of the external world, the reality of >consciousness-only, and general emptiness -- has himself made it clear >either that he was a man given to making incoherent assertions, or else that >hatred of all beings moved him to propound absurd doctrines that would >thoroughly confuse all who might take him seriously. Thus . . . , the >Buddha?s doctrine must be entirely disregarded by all those who have a >regard for their own happiness." > >When Shamkara focuses his analytical and critical dialectic on his >philosophical opponents, he can be very tough! > >-----Original Message----- >From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 8:48 PM >Subject: Re: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya > > >>Please give some references. >> >>regards, >> >>sarma. >>At 07:36 AM 12/31/98 +0530, K.S.Arjunwadkar wrote: >>>Thus, at times, he dubs his opponent who solely relies on >>>logic/reason as a bull without a tail and horns, ridicules him as speaking >>>with an unrestrained mouth, and so on. While concluding his criticism of >>>the philosophical doctrines of the Buddha, he remarks that the Buddha was >>>either insane or one who hated the mankind to the extent of taking >pleasure >>>in misguiding it. I can, if required, quote from his works to support my >>>statements. >>> >> > > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 3 23:13:22 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 18:13:22 -0500 Subject: Indian Gemmology Message-ID: <161227044523.23782.5553816563174321603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/3/99 6:50:55 AM Central Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Please inform me on anything you find on vaiDuurya, 'cat's eye' > gemstone. Its word meaning, possible derivations, occurences in > Indian literature, where these are unearthed, ... Jan Gonda in Old Indian (1971) p. 198 says, "vaiDUrya- "cat's-eye gem" which has now been explained as Dravidian (from the place-name vellUr) was according to pANini 4,3,84 a derivative of vidUra- "very remote"." Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 3 23:13:25 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 18:13:25 -0500 Subject: Information on sesame (tila) Message-ID: <161227044524.23782.15324969674789522535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/2/99 10:02:50 AM Central Standard Time, ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > 1. Page 17. > At Harappa an unmistakable "lump of charred sesame" was found at a > depth of about two metres (Referenced from M.S.Vats, Excavations at > Harappa, Manager of Publications, Delhi, 1940, vol 1, p 466). > > 2. Page 31. > The Rigveda mentions neither rice or wheat but only barley (yava); > the Yajurveda has all three, besides a panicum cereal, an oilseeed > (tila, sesame)... > > 5.page 36 > A wild sesame seed, jartila, permitted as food to ascetics, is > recorded in the Taittiriya Samhita.(Referenced from M.S. Randhawa at > item 3 above). Burrow derives Sanskrit tila from Dravidian *ceL or *teL related to Tamil eL (eLLu in colloquial usage). Kuiper says "Sanskrit tila-, m. "the sesamum plant or seed" and the prefixed form jartila- "wild sesamum" TS ZB must be borrowings from Munda." Frank C. Southworth in "Reconstructing social context from language: Indo- Aryan and Dravidian Pre-history", p. 270, says "Sesame seeds were found at Harappa, one of the major sites in the Indus Valley civilization (Vats 1940). Sesame was important both as a food and an ingredient of religious ceremonies inancient India, and is still so today. Assuming a connection between Dravidian eLLu and Akkadian ellu, it is impossible to determine without further evidence which was the source, or whether there was perhaps some third source. Nonetheless, since sesame was grown in the ancient Indus Valley and was involved in the trade with mesopotemia (see Ratnagar 1981:52 (note 30), 80), the resemblance between the words for sesame provides support for assuming some sort of relationship between speakers of Dravidian languages and the Indus Valley civilization." Regards S. Palaniappan From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sun Jan 3 18:44:40 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 99 21:44:40 +0300 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044562.23782.8094013385189613698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Jan. 4 Ashish Chandra wrote: >......just to let Yaroslav know, I am not advocating >any Out-Of-India theory. I don't even know of it... Dear Ashish, you have really surprised me. Can it be so that you have never read the books and articles which are so popular in India now? And if you really do not know what Out-of-India theory is, then what theoretical concept at all enables you to attack so bravely the Aryan Migration theory, which was built by mutual efforts of many generations of best scholars, both in India and in the West? > people endowed with my level of >intellect see in the AIT pushers a part of a vast Western conspiracy to >undermine India. So you believe in a vast Western conspiracy against India. But can you tell me in what way this your belief differs from the belief of some people in other countries that all the troubles of their nation are due to the global conspiracy of Jews, of Freemasons, of Western powers, or, let us say, as some Pakistani hotheads may think, of Indians - and so on... This belief is closely akin to such ideas as "our nation is most ancient", "our ancestors inhabited this territory since the beginning of the world", "our people are most wise", "our blood is pure and we never mixed with other people" and the like. All such beliefs are the perfect examples of MYTHOLOGICAL thinking. If one prefers to think on this *level* - well, why not, millions of people think this way (and sometimes it is very convenient, to be irrational) but one should realize in such case that this is the MYTHOLOGICAL way of thinking, that is - the very opposite of the rational, logical, scientific thought. I am not going to continue discussion on this topic. We have already broken the rules. The fault is on me: you are new on this list and did not know probably that the topic of "AIT" is taboo (after so many discussions which always ended in the blind alley). All the best Ya.V. From MC1 at AOL.COM Mon Jan 4 06:58:57 1999 From: MC1 at AOL.COM (MC1 at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 01:58:57 -0500 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227044536.23782.9856428891577330981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George, I haven't been following the full dialogue here but in case it sheds some light on the issue, I offer an alternative taken from Swami Vireswarananda's abbreviated translation of Sankara's commentary on the Brahma SUtras - this is most likely the Swami's own interpretation: This sutra can also be interpreted as refuting the Nihilist's: The translation would then be: And (as Nihilism) is illogical etc. Nihilism iof the Bauddhas goes counter to everything. It goes against the sruti, the smrti, perception, inference, and every other means of right knowledge and so has to be entirely diregarded by those who are mindful of their welfare. In a message dated 1/3/99, 4:58:47 PM, INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK writes: <<>In his BRAHMASUTRA-BHASHYA, Adhyaya II, Pada 2, Section 32, Shamkara writes >the following: "From whatever points of view the Buddhist systems are >tested with regard to their plausibility, they cave in on all sides, like >the walls of a well dug in sandy soil. [Buddhist philosophy] has, in fact, >no foundation whatever to rest upon, and thus it is foolish to adopt it as a >guide in the practical concerns of life. Moreover, the Buddha, by >presenting three mutually contradictory systems of philosophy -- teaching >respectively the reality of the external world, the reality of >consciousness-only, and general emptiness -- has himself made it clear >either that he was a man given to making incoherent assertions, or else that >hatred of all beings moved him to propound absurd doctrines that would >thoroughly confuse all who might take him seriously. Thus . . . , the >Buddha?s doctrine must be entirely disregarded by all those who have a >regard for their own happiness." > >When Shamkara focuses his analytical and critical dialectic on his >philosophical opponents, he can be very tough! >>> From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Mon Jan 4 01:24:56 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 06:24:56 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <42164278.368fb193@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227044526.23782.17889556411799452201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Though the members of the list are sure to take note of the wish that the word dAkSiNAtya should mean Tamilians and Malayalis only, the refernces cited are not sufficient to warrant such a conclusion. For that we need a reference like " ONLY people who use cOru for cooked rice are dAkSiNAtyAs." I am sure the search for such a reference will continue. Best wishes and regards, sarma. At 01:06 PM 1/3/99 EST, you wrote: >3. (a) Any directional adjective like dAkSiNAtya 'southern' is relative in its >application, for what is southern to one user can very well be northern to >another. However, it is reasonable to assume that in most Classical Indian >uses of dAkSiNAtya the reference would be to persons or objects of the >dakSiNa-patha unless a further specification is available in the context >(Sircar 1960:172, n.2). Another consideration one should keep in mind in the >case of VP 2.486 is that, as its author belonged to the pANinian tradition of >Sanskrit grammar, his understanding of dAkSiNAtya is not likely to be very >different from that of pataJjali (Kielhorn's ed., vol. 1, p. 8), who indicates >that the author of the vArttika yathA laukika-vaidikeSu was a dAkSiNAtya >(Cardona 1976: 268-69). The third helpful consideration in ascertaining the >common meaning of dAkSiNAtya in the Classical period is the remark by several >authors to the effect that the word cora/caura in the language of the >dAkSiNAtyas means odana 'cooked rice' not thief; cf. prabhA-candra, nyAya- >kumuda-candra, p. 547; jayantabhaTTa, nyAya-maJjarI, p. 242; and abhinava- >gupta, ttattva-viveka on parA-triMzikA 5-9ab, p. 125, who distinguishes >between saindhavas and dAkSiNAtyas. With reference to the meaning of the same >cora, vAdi-deva-sUri (syAd-vAda-ratnAkara, p. 703) distinguishes between >gurjaras and drAviDas; the latter must obviously be dAkSiNAtyas in his view. >Probably zrIdhara (nyAya-kandali, p. 215) also has a relevant observation to >offer in this case, although I cannot verify the reference at present." >Then in section (b) of note 3 Aklujkar gives references for dakSiNA-patha. > >Now the word cora obviously refers to Dravidian cORu. (I have discussed the >Ta. enunciative "u" and Sanskrit "a" in another posting) Regarding cORu, DEDR >has the following entry > >2897 Ta. cORu boiled rice, pith; cORRi pith of trees; con2Ri boiled rice. Ma. >cORu boiled rice, food, livelihood, brain, marrow, pith. To.twI.R cooked food. > >Thus, according to DEDR, the form cORu occurs only in Tamil-Malayalam. It does >not occur in Telugu. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > > From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Mon Jan 4 02:25:18 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 07:25:18 +0500 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: <006701be376d$7009b580$6476ffd0@MSN/george9252> Message-ID: <161227044529.23782.5328102362472655161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:04 PM 1/3/99 -0500, you wrote: >One more point on the foregoing: I think that Shamkara is wrong to >attribute to the Buddha three mutually exclusive philosophical perspectives. >But he does seem to do so. > He is not wrong because each these three schools claims to represent the stand of Buddha. Neither it his job to nor he can, determine which of them represents the true teaching of Buddha. So he says mischievoiusly I accept the claims of all of you three and disposes them off by showing their mutual contradictions. Sankara can be mischievous alright. regards, sarma. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 4 16:19:57 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 08:19:57 -0800 Subject: Jaffrelot book Message-ID: <161227044554.23782.17668684347157933866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For all interested `parties': Christophe Jaffrelot, The Hindu nationalist movement in India, Columbia univ. press, 1996. A translation from French. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 4 16:43:13 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 08:43:13 -0800 Subject: Jaffrelot book Message-ID: <161227044559.23782.7955735071795627784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Also: S. K. Pandian, Indian philosophy, a study on Hindutva, Sterling, Delhi, 1991 Tapan Basu, Khaki shorts and saffron flags, Orient Longman, 1993 A. A. Parvathy, Secularism and Hindutva, a discursive study Mangalore, 1994 Kancha Iliah, Why I am not a Hindu, a Sudra critique, Calcutta, 1996 J. Lele, Hindutva, the emergence of the right, Madras, 1995 --------------------------------------------------- For all interested `parties': Christophe Jaffrelot, The Hindu nationalist movement in India, Columbia univ. press, 1996. A translation from French. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From partha at CAPITAL.NET Mon Jan 4 13:45:56 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 08:45:56 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044543.23782.10656739369913745628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello. I am delighted that INDOLOGY has decided to talk about this film and the important issues brought forth in the film. Women's issues in ultrapatriarchal South Asian context have not been dealt with in the Indian film world except for some sporadic instances (here I would mention Satyajit Ray's Mahanagar and Devi, Mrinal Sen's Bhuban Shome, Ketan Mehta's Spices, and Shyam Benegal's Nishant and Ankur). Regardless of its cinematographic merits, FIRE is extremely noteworthy for its bold approach toward Indian women's (and men's) sexual issues -- a subject that has so far been viewed as a taboo in the conservative Indian media dominated by social and religious patriarchy. And the less we talk about the so-called Bollywood films, the better. A lot has been discussed on this film specially after the recent barbaric vandalism at cinema halls by Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal goons (the latter being Vishwa Hindu Parishad's direct offshoot) disrupting and eventually stalling the show of the film, and one could look up the various websites to get a glimpse of some of these discussions. It is heartwarming though to see that at least some INDOLOGY scholars have seen relevance of its mention on the list. Regards, Partha Banerjee p.s. -- I would give the film a 3.0 on its cinematography and a 3.5 on social relavance. Nandita Das deserves a 4.0 for her acting. _________________ >> >> I'll reserve further comment until others indicate an interest in >> discussing it. If anyone gets an opportunity to see the film I urge them >> to do so for I applaud its sensitive and balanced treatment of a number of >> issues worth discussing here, and give it 3.5 stars on a 4 point scale. >> >> Michael Rabe >> School of the Art Institue of Chicago >> and Saint Xavier University >> >> From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Mon Jan 4 14:50:43 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (michael Rabe) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 08:50:43 -0600 Subject: Problem Message-ID: <161227044549.23782.3357498042012096191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Chris Wooff and Dominik about MY problem with posting to the list: Thank you for pointing out the error in my email preferences set up. This is a first test to see if my postings now work. Assuming this will go through I suggest that George Cronk also check for a parallel problem. What had happened to me was that when I set up my Euroda software on a new laptop it didn't correctly identify my return address on the Confirgurations menu. Thus my postings were seen as coming from an unknown and nonsensical _artic.edu at artic.edu_. Thanks again Chris for helping me rectify the problem. BTW, I'm very heartened to see Partha Banerjee's astute comments on my posting about _Fire_. Finally! Michael Rabe *********************** >I have been trying to post a message to the Indology users' list, and it >won't go through. I think this happened once before, but I can't remember >what the solution is. Something about my personal email address? > >I am Dr. George Cronk, george9252 at msn.com. > >Help? From wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 4 14:11:26 1999 From: wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Walker Trimble) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 09:11:26 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: <19981224142624.7596.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044694.23782.16245350116536678200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This might be the time to ask other Indologists and those interested in the history of Indology why so many thinkers who have attempted to find the hidden and missing links between cultures have also had fascist leanings. This seems to be the case from Max-Mueller (though his is rather weak) through Eliade, Dumezil, Jung, even the popular Joseph Campbell and on. Also, consider how many Modernest writers and poets who also espoused a kind of "Universal Consciousness" were fascists: T.S. Eliot, W.B. Yeats, of course many of the Surrealists. . . Why? Since so many of the great Indolgists in the last two centuries are and have been Westerners, studies in the attempts to coalesce the thought of East and West would have some hermeneutical value for the discipline. I am now reading a book which explores Dumezil's possible fascism, some may find it interesting: Eribon, Didier. Faut-il Br^uler Dum'ezil?__Paris: Flammarion, 1992. At 06:26 AM 12/24/98 PST, you wrote: ><<< > There was never a process of >cleaning in the Indology in after Nazis times and therefore it is one >reason for the unscholarity methode which is still dominating the >after-Nazi German Indology. >>>> > > Hope some scholars take up the task of the study of how > Sanskrit played in the Nazi hands. Was surprised to find > that the grand historian of religion, Mircea Eliade had some > Nazi connections. From george9252 at MSN.COM Mon Jan 4 14:21:15 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 09:21:15 -0500 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227044546.23782.5572630917080773483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That's a rendering of part of BRAHMASUTRA BHASHYA, Adhyaya II, Pada 2, Section 31, the last paragraph of which reads as follows: "We have now refuted both the Buddhist Realists, who maintain the (momentary) reality of the external world, and the Buddhist Idealists, who claim that only consciousness exists. The third variety of Buddhist philosophy (Madhyamaka Voidism), i.e., the view that everything is empty (i.e., that absolutely nothing exists), is contradicted by all the recognized means of knowledge [perception, inference, the verbal testimony of the Scriptures, etc.] and therefore requires no special refutation. The reality of the phenomenal world is guaranteed by all the means of knowledge. Its existence cannot be denied without a convincing proof of its non-existence (or 'emptiness'), for a conclusion arrived at on the basis of the standard means of knowledge must be accepted in the absence of a convincing argument to the contrary." -----Original Message----- From: MC1 at AOL.COM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 2:09 AM Subject: Re: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya >George, I haven't been following the full dialogue here but in case it sheds >some light on the issue, I offer an alternative taken from Swami >Vireswarananda's abbreviated translation of Sankara's commentary on the Brahma >SUtras - this is most likely the Swami's own interpretation: > >This sutra can also be interpreted as refuting the Nihilist's: The translation >would then be: And (as Nihilism) is illogical etc. > >Nihilism iof the Bauddhas goes counter to everything. It goes against the >sruti, the smrti, perception, inference, and every other means of right >knowledge and so has to be entirely diregarded by those who are mindful of >their welfare. > > >In a message dated 1/3/99, 4:58:47 PM, INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK writes: ><<>In his BRAHMASUTRA-BHASHYA, Adhyaya II, Pada 2, Section 32, Shamkara writes >>the following: "From whatever points of view the Buddhist systems are >>tested with regard to their plausibility, they cave in on all sides, like >>the walls of a well dug in sandy soil. [Buddhist philosophy] has, in fact, >>no foundation whatever to rest upon, and thus it is foolish to adopt it as >a >>guide in the practical concerns of life. Moreover, the Buddha, by >>presenting three mutually contradictory systems of philosophy -- teaching >>respectively the reality of the external world, the reality of >>consciousness-only, and general emptiness -- has himself made it clear >>either that he was a man given to making incoherent assertions, or else >that >>hatred of all beings moved him to propound absurd doctrines that would >>thoroughly confuse all who might take him seriously. Thus . . . , the >>Buddha?s doctrine must be entirely disregarded by all those who have >a >>regard for their own happiness." >> >>When Shamkara focuses his analytical and critical dialectic on his >>philosophical opponents, he can be very tough! >>>> > From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Jan 4 14:48:59 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 09:48:59 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044551.23782.17420807512625018488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav wrote : Dear Ashish, thank you for so clear and honest formulation of the concept which is really basic for your favourite Out-of-India "theory". But can not you see yourself that the concept which helds that ALL Europeans are scoundrels and politically (or otherwise?) biased falsifiers of facts, is racist? And it can not be a base for any scientific theory, but only for the racist, nationalistic propaganda. What makes your words particularly insulting and unjust is that you mean by the wicked "Europeans" first of all Indologists - i.e. the people who devoted their lives to the study of India, the country they love. And love quite disinterestedly, though I doubt you can believe it. ___________ My temptation to launch into another "diatribe" is severe. But I think its best to resist it. Anyway, Just to let Yaroslav know, I am not advocating any Out-Of-India theory. I don't even know of it so I think one might have a problem with associating that as my "favorite theory". Yaroslav, the mistake you have made is not new i.e. termed the use of the anti-AIT proponents as "racist, nationalists" etc. It is made amongst the Indian nationalists every day wherein people endowed with my level of intellect see in the AIT pushers a part of a vast Western conspiracy to undermine India. While that may not be true, there are examples to be quoted from history wherein Europeans have shown a tilt towards an invasion of India by European related peoples. While the nationalists dismiss these as evidence of racism and conspiratorial tendencies among Western powers, they are in turn being accused of being racist !!! Rhetoric matching rhetoric has probably no end. Don't jump to conclusions like the Indian BJP is fascist. As far as my knowledge of Indian nationalism goes, and it is leaps and bounds over the narrow invective let loose here by Sri Ganesan, the movement seeks to establish an India wherein our ancient culture, which you and others so love, is not in any danger of being preserved in museums alone. That is the baseline. As with every movement, it has its positive and negative sides. Do I need to add here that I never held, neither have I ever categorized, nor here or elsewhere, that Europeans are "scoundrels and biased falsifiers of facts." My statement "What is wrong with the view that the Europeans want us to believe in AIT because it gives credence to the idea that India has always been invaded and settled" was in response to Sri Ganesan letting loose his barrage against everyone ranging from Sankara Matths to Bodhayana to Indians who come to the West to "1) to get a job in the West; 2) to push unsustainable dates for Veda, Giitaa, Westward expansion of Sanskrit from IVC" and to " get the money/job from the West whose inventions directly come from scientific thinking and which all humankind enjoys." Ok. Hope everyone is happy. Ashish Chandra 1 month on Indology. Not even. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 4 19:25:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 11:25:29 -0800 Subject: Jaffrelot's book Message-ID: <161227044566.23782.1265654958318878241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A dear friend has sent me this. Regards, N. Ganesan --------------------------------------------------------------- 1. The brotherhood in saffron : the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and Hindu revivalism Walter K. Andersen and Shridhar D. Damle Boulder Westview Press, 1987. (Westview special studies on South and Southeast Asia) ISBN 0-8133-7358-1 all the works of Peter van der Veer 'd be of great importance here: esp. 2. Religious nationalism : Hindus and Muslims in India Peter van der Veer Berkeley: Univ. of California Press, 1994 ISBN: 0-520-08220-6| also see: Gods on earth : the management of religious experience and identity in a North Indian pilgrimage centre Veer, Peter _van der_ , London: Athlone, 1988. Series: London School of economics : Monographs on social anthropology ; 59 ISBN: 0-485-19510-0 [...] BTW, Frawley has reached India's shores. I hear his books are now translated into Telugu!! Probably into all other languages as well?! ------------------------------------------------------------------ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Mon Jan 4 19:19:07 1999 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 13:19:07 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044564.23782.6173255806622475006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Partha Banerjee wrote: [..] > A lot has been discussed on this film specially after the recent barbaric > vandalism at cinema halls by Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal goons (the latter > being Vishwa Hindu Parishad's direct offshoot) disrupting and eventually > stalling the show of the film, and one could look up the various websites > to get a glimpse of some of these discussions. > > It is heartwarming though to see that at least some INDOLOGY scholars have > seen relevance of its mention on the list. I'll bet it warms your heart. In fact, any issue that can be twisted to suit your one-point agenda on spreading hate about Hindu organizations probably is "heartwarming". Why did the movie show the two lesbian women as Sita and Parvati ? It's not as though Sita and Parvati are common Indian names. Indeed they are not. Why not two muslim women engaged in homosexuality? Or how about having a movie where the Virgin Mary is having animal sex with her father 9 months before the birth of Jesus Christ? After all, incest is common, and some argue that it is legitimate sex, if consensual. See the reaction such a movie will have in the US, the symbol of freedom. It is a well known fact here that Fire was a movie dominated by muslims (like Shabana Azmi). Why did they not choose characters of their own religion? Freedom of speech! It's time we had a Statue of Responsibility to balance out the Statue of Liberty. And some things are beyond the reach of law. Hurting the feelings of millions of Hindus is not illegal, but it is certainly not something you want to do repeatedly. Yes we are conservative - does that mean you will invoke every possible opportunity to insult our beliefs, and then hide behind the freedom of speech ? I do not support the destruction of the movie hall, but it is time "intellectuals" like Mr. Banerjee learned to respect the feelings of commoners like us. When there is a big divide, sometimes the only course of action for the man on the street is to go out and take things by force. That is what happened in the French Revolution. That is what happened at Babri Masjid, and against Fire. And it will happen every time minorities like you try to subvert the feelings of a majority. ~sumedh From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 4 21:23:03 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 13:23:03 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044573.23782.5742285109659804149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. A. Chandra writes now: ******************************************************** over the narrow invective let loose here by Sri Ganesan, ******************************************************** On New Year Eve (31-dec-98)I saw the GENEROUS remarks on me by Sri Asishji in Indology: *but you are one BIASED individual Sri Ganesan. And you have only a one-point agenda* Also, I happen to observe the generous, multi-faceted, learned views of Shri Ashishji several times in Indology. He really has some multi-pointed agenda. Mr. A. Chandra continues today: <<<< to Sri Ganesan letting loose his barrage against everyone ranging from Sankara Matths to Bodhayana to Indians who come to the West to "1) to get a job in the West; 2) to push unsustainable dates for Veda, Giitaa, Westward expansion of Sanskrit from IVC" and to " get the money/job from the West whose inventions directly come from scientific thinking and which all humankind enjoys." >>>> I said what is within the quotes, that's all. 1) I see Indians come to the West to get jobs and 2) Some Indians, with total disregard to modern academic scholarship, push unsustainable dates for Indic texts. I feel there is a definite dichotomy here because Indians do science at work, but maintain the status quo of caste patriarchy elsewhere. Is it why the scientific way of analyzing Indian past where most data are ahistorical NOT encouraged by the Patriarchy at the top of Indian society. I am positive that Unless analytical approaches are widely made available on Indic past, the amateurish Indigenous Aryan school will be pushed with force onto the masses of India, mostly poor and unlettered. I never said that I am adamantly holding or stubbornly clinging onto AIT. Sri Ashishji was insisting few times. In the end, he wrote "apology to sri ganesan". I said that Indians come to the West in search of jobs and some Indians push unsustainable dates for Indian texts against all the evidence collected by research in the West. No doubt, I point out the (submerged) Dravidian contribution to Indic culture, most likely a very major component in IVC. Is it OK, Sri Ashish, to pursue that? Want to hear more about narrow invective of the BIASED individual who is often singled out? Regards, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Ashish Chandra Subject: Re: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. <<<< It is quite natural that you should expect to hear from scholars of Indology Dr. Ganesan. Anyone who does not agree with you is not a scholar is it ? You had mentioned that Dr. Subhash Kak used to write here on Indology a few years back .... >>>>> Please see Indology archives. I gave what Dr. S. Kak writes about Vedic civilization in Anatolia in 7500 BC. Do you want me to believe that story? I read that paper of Dr. Kak because it is published in a prestigious Indian jl., ABORI. Also, the conclusion is something like "European designation of Dravidian languages as different from IA is mAyA". Please remember there are 1000s of Indigenous Aryan schoolers active politically, in newsgroups, on TV, mounting websites, ... Hardly any to counter these guys' wishful thinking. Sincerely, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 4 13:24:20 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 13:24:20 +0000 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ (fwd) Message-ID: <161227044541.23782.12044020162681986369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From Michael Rabe: > Dear fellow-indologists, > > Luxuriating in the mid-year break between semesters I've taken the time to > rent a video tape of Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ [the New Yorker Films release in > the U.S. preceded the Bal Thackery induced demonstrations of recent weeks]. > And for what it's worth, I'd like to publically commend her on this forum > for a masterful work of fiction. What impressed me most about this film, > apart from the grave circumspection with which potentially titillating > episodes were uniformly treated--no soft porn voyeurism offered here, > unlike Mira Nair's travesty called _Kamasutra_ last year--is the sympathetic > humanity with which ALL the principals are characterized--yes, even the > less-than-loving husbands. For me at least, everything rang true--even the > genesis of lesbianism between long-suffering Radha and newly disillusioned > Sita. Not, I hasten to add, because of any opinion of my own I have to > offer on the subject of the plausibility or frequency of such a turn in > real life--rather, only in terms the actions arising logically out of given > plot and character elements set forth, again as telling fiction. > > So...what I'd like to know, first off, is whether any others of you have > seen the film and would like to discuss its merits as an indological text. > Can anyone share any URLs for published reviews in the Indian press? Here, > for starters are some I found via States-side search engines: > > AN INTERVIEW WITH DEEPA MEHTA > http://www.industech.com/infusion/current/mehta.html > > IN THE FIRING LINE by Brandon Judell > http://www.filmmag.com/community/cyberlinc/interviews/mehta.html > > A Film Review by James Berardinelli > http://movie-reviews.colossus.net/movies/f/fire.html > > & http://www.zeitgeistfilm.com/current/fire/fire.html > for _FIRE_ A FILM BY DEEPA MEHTA > starring > SHABANA AZMI as RADHA > NANDITA DAS as SITA > KULBUSHAN KHARBANDA as ASHOK > JAAVED JAAFERI as JATIN > RANJIT CHOWDHRY as MUNDU > and introducing > KUSHAL REKHI as BIJI [and > Alice Poon as Julie] > > I'll reserve further comment until others indicate an interest in > discussing it. If anyone gets an opportunity to see the film I urge them > to do so for I applaud its sensitive and balanced treatment of a number of > issues worth discussing here, and give it 3.5 stars on a 4 point scale. > > Michael Rabe > School of the Art Institue of Chicago > and Saint Xavier University > > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 4 22:31:21 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 14:31:21 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044582.23782.1252718183933632743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In fact, *all* scholars are telling that Sanskrit entered India and definitely NOT the other way around. It spread by language change accomplished by elite dominance approach. Upanishads age is reduced by about 100 years. Modern scholarship shows Rig Veda is about 1000 BC, rather than 1400 BC. For all the above, pl. see archives. With kind regards, N. Ganesan <<< I wonder if Dr. Fosse, or anyone else well-acquainted with this subject, would summarize for new list entrants, like myself, as to how this topic achieved closure. In selectively reading the archives it appears to me that more facts are needed for closure since both competing theories have deficiencies. Barring any new findings, this topic could be treated as a dormant subject but definitely not a closed one. Any thoughts? BTW, I am not a scholar but would like to be one. Regards, Krishna Kambhampaty >>>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bapa_rao at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 4 22:43:48 1999 From: bapa_rao at HOTMAIL.COM (Bapa Rao) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 14:43:48 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044585.23782.324922041162841881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ... > dates for Indic texts. > > I feel there is a definite dichotomy here because Indians do > science at work, but maintain the status quo of > caste patriarchy elsewhere. I am a scientific worker and an Indian living in America. How do you know I am maintaining the "status quo of caste patriarchy elsewhere?" whatever the terms "status quo", "caste patriarchy" and "elsewhere" may denote? Is there some universally-understood obligation on the part of all scientific workers to make radical changes in their lives outside their jobs, an obligation that Indians alone are betraying due to their inherently vile nature? If that's not what you meant to say, perhaps you can explain what you meant above? It is one thing to discuss the merits of hypotheses about the origins of Indians, quite another thing to heap random abuse. I read the list for the former purpose. I can get plenty of political discussions and partisan polemics elsewhere. If you have an issue with someone about whatever contradictions you may find in his positions, wouldn't it be better to take it up with him (or not, as you see fit)? Instead of indulging in generalizations like this? Maybe you'll be good enough to consider this option? Thank you. Bapa Rao ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 4 23:01:27 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 15:01:27 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044588.23782.13651909056690319767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > dates for Indic texts. > > I feel there is a definite dichotomy here because Indians do > science at work, but maintain the status quo of > caste patriarchy elsewhere. <<< I am a scientific worker and an Indian living in America. How do you know I am maintaining the "status quo of caste patriarchy elsewhere?" whatever the terms "status quo", "caste patriarchy" and "elsewhere" may denote? >>> I am sorry, Mr. Rao. I should have said "some" Indians. Wrote in haste, please forgive me for missing "some". I can understand your nonpolitical thoughts. Thank you. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 4 21:16:56 1999 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 15:16:56 -0600 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044571.23782.5597186529749376244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Andronov began his first lecture, "Dravidian and Aryan: From the Typological >Similarity to the Similarity of Forms" by saying, "It is generally accepted >at present that Dravidian languages served as a substratum, underlying the Old >Indo-Aryan language, when the latter appeared on the Indian soil in the first >half of the second millennium B.C., and that the whole course of the >subsequent development of both Indo-Aryan and Dravidian was largely influenced >and predetermined by this circumstance. Their mutual influence on each other, >most probably, took shape of bilingualism of a great portion of themingling >peoples. The numerical superiority was, obviously, on the side of the >indigenous population, which is testified by the rapid change and complete >dissolution of the the ethnic type of the newcomers. One can suggest also that >in the first period of contact bilinguals were recruited chiefly from the >native population." > > This is again an example of retrofitting data to suit ones own preconceived notions. Mr.Andoronov, seems to assume that somehow, so called Dravidian Languages served as substratum and Indo-Aryan language first appeared around 1500BC - on what basis is this done ? How did Andronov come to the conclusion that Indo-Aryan Languages arrived after 1500BC ? The dating of the Rgveda ? based on guesswork by Muller ? Just say substratum and you have proved Aryan migration !!!. Realizing that there is no racial evidence,Mr.Andronov wants us to believe a strong native tradition was overshadowed by a few nomadic migrants, who then managed to impose their language and religion over a overwhelming majority by recruiting from the native population !!. Just like their European descendants of today, I presume ? - This is classic European supremacist nonsense that has to be avoided. When in doubt, make an assumption and then make more assumptions to prove whatever one wants. Even Goebbels would have been impressed. In a previous message this gem of scholarly writing was quoted from the Indo-Aryans of South Asia: > > What is not yet clear is how the >process of immigration actually took place. As suggested in my previous paper >(Chapter 4), even a limited number of Indo-Aryan speakers could have triggered >a process of acculturation, especially if they enjoyed a dominant social >position due to their superior (military) technology." > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Agian,This is the kind of aryan supremacist nonsense that Jim Shaffer has exposed and called into question. What might this superior military technology be ? Chariot Panzers, led by Indra Rommels, shooting Kulturekugels ? Then surely, the neighing of horses must have sounded like the whistle of diving Stuka bombers and frightened the Dravidians -Objective scholarship indeed!!. It appears that colonial thinking, WWII and postwar military buildup in Europe has greatly influenced these scholars. Theories of Chariot Tanks,Culture Bullets etc indicates that many of these scholars are basically projecting their adolescent fantasies and childhood experience onto Indian history. Those who attribute motives to others, should first look at their own. Subrahmanya From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 4 21:34:21 1999 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 15:34:21 -0600 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <005301be3828$311ec520$dcc0ffd0@MSN/george9252> Message-ID: <161227044577.23782.5544048309500309116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:21 PM 1/4/99 -0500, you wrote: >Isn't the first half of the 2nd millenium BC the 500-year period PRIOR TO >1500? > Yup....my mistake... >How did Andronov come to the conclusion that Indo-Aryan Languages arrived >after 1500BC ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Make that 'between 2000-1500BC'. There was a long discussion on Dating of the Rgveda....please look up the archives. Subrahmanya From krishna.kambhampaty at EDS.COM Mon Jan 4 21:42:21 1999 From: krishna.kambhampaty at EDS.COM (Kambhampaty, Krishna) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 15:42:21 -0600 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044580.23782.12725318422885800271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Lars Martin Fosse [mailto:lmfosse at ONLINE.NO] > Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 11:57 > > Perhaps we should add, for the benefit of Ashish, that practically the whole > discussion can be found in the Indology archives. There he will find all the > arguments that can possibly be brought to bear on the subject rehashed several > times. He will also find references to various books on the subjects. I agree > that we now should regard the AIT/AMT as a closed subject. > > There is little more to be said, except perhaps to exchange bibliographic notes. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > I wonder if Dr. Fosse, or anyone else well-acquainted with this subject, would summarize for new list entrants, like myself, as to how this topic achieved closure. In selectively reading the archives it appears to me that more facts are needed for closure since both competing theories have deficiencies. Barring any new findings, this topic could be treated as a dormant subject but definitely not a closed one. Any thoughts? BTW, I am not a scholar but would like to be one. Regards, Krishna Kambhampaty From george9252 at MSN.COM Mon Jan 4 21:21:27 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 16:21:27 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044575.23782.12466195111403963811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Isn't the first half of the 2nd millenium BC the 500-year period PRIOR TO 1500? -----Original Message----- From: SNS To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 4:18 PM Subject: Re: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. >> >>Andronov began his first lecture, "Dravidian and Aryan: From the Typological >>Similarity to the Similarity of Forms" by saying, "It is generally accepted >>at present that Dravidian languages served as a substratum, underlying the >Old >>Indo-Aryan language, when the latter appeared on the Indian soil in the first >>half of the second millennium B.C., and that the whole course of the >>subsequent development of both Indo-Aryan and Dravidian was largely >influenced >>and predetermined by this circumstance. Their mutual influence on each other, >>most probably, took shape of bilingualism of a great portion of themingling >>peoples. The numerical superiority was, obviously, on the side of the >>indigenous population, which is testified by the rapid change and complete >>dissolution of the the ethnic type of the newcomers. One can suggest also >that >>in the first period of contact bilinguals were recruited chiefly from the >>native population." >> >> >This is again an example of retrofitting data to suit ones own >preconceived notions. Mr.Andoronov, seems to assume that somehow, so >called Dravidian Languages served as substratum and Indo-Aryan language >first appeared around 1500BC - on what basis is this done ? > >How did Andronov come to the conclusion that Indo-Aryan Languages arrived >after 1500BC ? >The dating of the Rgveda ? based on guesswork by Muller ? > >Just say substratum and you have proved Aryan migration !!!. > >Realizing that there is no racial evidence,Mr.Andronov wants us to believe >a strong native tradition was overshadowed by a few nomadic migrants, >who then managed to impose their language and religion over a overwhelming >majority by recruiting from the native population !!. >Just like their European descendants of today, I presume ? - >This is classic European supremacist nonsense that has to be avoided. > >When in doubt, make an assumption and then make more assumptions to >prove whatever one wants. >Even Goebbels would have been impressed. > >In a previous message this gem of >scholarly writing was quoted from the Indo-Aryans of South Asia: >> >> What is not yet clear is how the >>process of immigration actually took place. As suggested in my previous paper >>(Chapter 4), even a limited number of Indo-Aryan speakers could have >triggered >>a process of acculturation, especially if they enjoyed a dominant social >>position due to their superior (military) technology." >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >Agian,This is the kind of aryan supremacist nonsense that >Jim Shaffer has exposed and called into question. >What might this superior military technology be ? >Chariot Panzers, led by Indra Rommels, shooting Kulturekugels ? >Then surely, the neighing of horses must have sounded like the whistle >of diving Stuka bombers and frightened the Dravidians > -Objective scholarship indeed!!. > >It appears that colonial thinking, WWII and postwar military buildup >in Europe has greatly influenced these scholars. >Theories of Chariot Tanks,Culture Bullets etc indicates that many of >these scholars are basically projecting their adolescent >fantasies and childhood experience onto Indian history. > >Those who attribute motives to others, should first look at their >own. > >Subrahmanya > From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Mon Jan 4 16:22:48 1999 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 17:22:48 +0100 Subject: email of M. Carter needed In-Reply-To: <2e3a12c2.368ff995@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227044557.23782.1573091562057786322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a recent posting someone gave the postal address of Dr. Martha L. Carter together with her email address. Unfortunately, the latter seems to be outdated. Could someone please communicate the present-day email address? Thanks, Harry Falk From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Jan 4 17:56:40 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 18:56:40 +0100 Subject: SV: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044568.23782.1636904200896665315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > I am not going to continue discussion on this topic. We have > already > broken the rules. The fault is on me: you are new on this list and did not > know probably that the topic of "AIT" is taboo (after so many discussions > which > always ended in the blind alley). > Perhaps we should add, for the benefit of Ashish, that practically the whole discussion can be found in the Indology archives. There he will find all the arguments that can possibly be brought to bear on the subject rehashed several times. He will also find references to various books on the subjects. I agree that we now should regard the AIT/AMT as a closed subject. There is little more to be said, except perhaps to exchange bibliographic notes. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Tue Jan 5 00:17:06 1999 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 19:17:06 -0500 Subject: Sari Message-ID: <161227044591.23782.3855244986162935259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I always wondered about the etymology of the word "sari". Does it have anything to do with "yellow" or "wrapping"? Thanks to all. Happy New Year. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jan 5 02:56:33 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 21:56:33 -0500 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <19990104230127.1709.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044594.23782.6695756124342502078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I didn't react on this earlier. But various sweeping generalizations are totally absurd. A debate here on such topics is out of place, IMO. Sounds rather politically motivated.. Bijoy Misra On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > > dates for Indic texts. > > > > I feel there is a definite dichotomy here because Indians do > > science at work, but maintain the status quo of > > caste patriarchy elsewhere. > > <<< > I am a scientific worker and an Indian living in America. How do you > know I am maintaining the "status quo of caste patriarchy elsewhere?" > whatever the terms "status quo", "caste patriarchy" and "elsewhere" may > denote? > >>> > > I am sorry, Mr. Rao. I should have said "some" Indians. > Wrote in haste, please forgive me for missing "some". > > > > I can understand your nonpolitical thoughts. Thank you. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 5 15:29:10 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 07:29:10 -0800 Subject: Language change to IA Message-ID: <161227044602.23782.16187922594113872933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Read the following on the process of language change to IE. Written by an Archaeologist. Is the process same when Sanskrit entered India from the West and spread? Any References? Many thanks. Regards, N. Ganesan ---------------------------------------------------------------- Antiquity, Sept 1995 v69 n264 p554(12) Horse, wagon & chariot: Indo-European languages and archaeology. David W. Anthony. The dynamics of Indo-European expansion The expansion of the Indo-European languages must have involved many episodes of language shift over a long period of time. There is no single explanation for these many episodes; they occurred in different places, at different times, for many different reasons. Even the initial expansion seems to have been facilitated by different processes to the east and to the west of the PIE core area. Language shift has been modelled by archaeologists in two ways: demographic expansion and elite dominance. In the first, a group with a more intensive economy and a denser population replaces or absorbs a group with a less intensive economy, and language shift occurs as an epiphenomenon of a wave-like demographic expansion (Renfrew 1994; Bellwood 1989). In the second, a powerful elite imposes its language on a client or subject population. While both processes can be important, language shift is more complex than these models imply. Language shift can be understood best as a social strategy through which individuals and groups compete for positions of prestige, power, and domestic security (Anthony in press). What is important, then, is not just dominance, but vertical social mobility and a linkage between language and access to positions of prestige and power (Mallory 1992). The expansion of the Indo-European languages eastward into the steppes was linked to innovations in transport. The resultant development of deep-steppe pastoralism combined with river-valley agriculture made it possible for a substantial population predictably and productively to exploit the grasslands that occupy the center of the Eurasian landmass. The conquest of the grasslands permanently changed the dynamics of historical development across the Eurasian continent by establishing a bridge, however tenuous, between the previously isolated societies of China, Iran, the Near East and Europe. In a sense, the eastward expansion of the pastoral-agricultural economy might be analogous to the 'demographic wave' that Renfrew and others have applied to the Indo-European expansion in Europe. However, the cultural-archaeological context shows that the steppes were already populated; the process by which this resident population became IE-speakers was cultural, not just demographic. A relatively small immigrant elite population can encourage widespread language shift among numerically dominant indigenes in a non-state or pre-state context if the elite employs a specific combination of encouragements and punishments. Ethnohistorical cases in Africa (Kopytoff 1987; Atkinson 1989) and the Philippines (Bentley 1981) demonstrate that small elite groups have successfully imposed their languages in non-state situations where they: * imported a powerful and attractive new religion or ideology (as the Sintashta-Petrovka culture seems to have done); * controlled sufficient wealth to offer gifts and loans on a lavish scale (documented in the metallurgical wealth of Sintashta-Petrovka); * controlled sufficient military muscle to punish those who resisted (chariotry might have increased the power of the Sintashta-Petrovka people); * occupied strategic positions on critical trade routes (Sintashta controls access to the Orenburg gateway between Europe and the steppes); * and actively pursued marriages and alliances with the more powerful members of indigenous groups, offering them enhanced prestige and vertical social mobility in the new order. Simply defeating and dominating the indigenes is insufficient, as the Norman conquest of England and the Celtic conquest of Galatia demonstrate. Language shift occurs when it confers strategic advantages on those who learn the new language. An elite must be not just dominant, but open to assimilation and alliance, and its language must be a key to integration within an attractive socio-political system, as it was for the Roman state at one end of the political spectrum and for Baluchi nomads (Barth 1981) at the other. The diffusion of the IE languages eastward into the steppes should be understood as a social process, not as an epiphenomenon of a demographic shift. The diffusion westward into Europe was fundamentally different in ecological, cultural and economic terms. It also probably began much earlier. Intrusive kurgan cemeteries in the lower Danube valley (Panaiotov 1989) and eastern Hungary (Ecsedy 1979; Sherratt 1983) probably testify to a sustained Yamna incursion at about 2900-2700 BC (Anthony 1990). Yet the small-group social dynamics responsible for language shift might have been very similar in Europe and the steppes. In a European context in which wagons and animal traction were becoming increasingly important in the domestic economy (Bogucki 1993), the pastorally-oriented societies of the western steppes might have been seen not as culturally backward 'Huns', but rather as enviably rich and worthy of emulation. Wheeled vehicles may have significantly altered the organization of agricultural labour in eastern Europe, since one person with a wagon and oxen could transport crops from field to farm that would earlier have required the co-operative labour of a group (Bankoff & Greenfield 1984: 17; Bogucki 1993). Wagons made systematic manuring possible, opening areas with less productive soils to agricultural exploitation. Wagons required draft oxen, enhancing the overall importance of cattle-raising, while horseback riding made cattle stealing easier, encouraging inter-community raiding and warfare. Wagons may have encouraged the evolution of increasingly dispersed and individualizing social communities (as automobiles have done in this century). Shifts in values may have been encouraged by changes in eastern European community organization and economy that were themselves caused partially by the adoption of wheeled vehicles and horseback riding. All of these changes might have set the stage for the adoption of new languages just at the time that the Yamna incursion into the grassy plains of the lower Danube valley and eastern Hungary began. At the root of both expansions lie the speakers of PIE, whose kinship systems, religious concepts, and social organization can be understood through their own reconstructed vocabulary - an unprecedented opportunity for anthropological archaeologists, if we can agree on how it should be exploited. -------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 5 16:58:08 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 08:58:08 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044606.23782.17651127484158246155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sn. Subrahmanya writes: >Realizing that there is no racial evidence,Mr.Andronov wants us to > believe a strong native tradition was overshadowed by a few > nomadic migrants, who then managed to impose their language and > religion over a overwhelming majority by recruiting from >the native population !!. >Just like their European descendants of today, I presume ? - >This is classic European supremacist nonsense that has to be avoided. (The last statement is higly racist.) Note that Andronov has explained this a full three decades before Indigenous Aryans started fighting with Mueller dead for a 100 years. Languages spread by elite dominance strategy. Look at Spanish spreading as "prestige" language in Latin America. Indo-Europeans have been successful in spreading their IE language on native populations. Hittites, Greeks, Celts did spread their language on the natives. The Aryans did the same thing. For a start of the substratum influence: a) A. F. Sjoberg, The Dravidian contribution to the Development of Indian Civilization: A call for a Reassessment. Comparative Civilizations Review, v.23, p.40-74, 1990 b) A. F. Sjoberg, The impact of Dravidian on Indo-Aryan: An overview, in Edgar C. Polome, Reconstruction of Languages and Cultures, 1992, p. 507-529 c) J. C. von Munkwitz-Smith, Substratum influence in Indo-Aryan grammar, PhD dissertation, 1995, U. Minnesota. Studies on bilingualism, pidginization, languistic cahnge, IA retroflexion, Indian place names, linguistic masks for power and internal colonialism are relevent too. Hope in the near future, linguists take up the study of how linguistic change to IA was done. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 5 18:02:44 1999 From: ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM (Asha Naidu) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 10:02:44 -0800 Subject: Possible Research Avenues - Indian Food Histories Message-ID: <161227044611.23782.10947258127962921636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr Ganesan wrote Just like works of George Hart, Martha Selby, ... comparing Tamil love poems to Gatha saptasati, there is abundant untouched material on food in Tamil sangam texts. Acharya's book is great, even there the Dravidian words are visible. But, Acharya does not have enough Tamil to read sangam texts and commentaries. A companion volume to KTA can be done. I couldn't agree more. I would not be surprised to learn that a few PhD's work remains undone regarding the material on food in Tamil Sangam Texts. Achaya (who I too first took to be Acharya!!)has given a large box describing some of the Sangam Anthologies in chapter 4 'the Foods of South India'. I noted with disappointment that Achaya did not have much material on Andhra food history - and that there was atleast one inaccuracy. However I live in hope that at some future date, funding will be provided for necessary research to be carried out on food histories of Tamilnadu, Andhra, Maharashtra, Gujarat, UP and all other Indian states He gives the name of the food manual done in Chalukya court. (bojana kutUhala?) A Kashmiri poet wrote the biography of a Chalukyan king. A copy of the Bhojana Kutuhala written by Raghunatha is available in the library of the Wellcome Institute, London!! I own a book by a noted Maharashtrian cookery expert which refers to a sanskrit encyclopaedic book 'Manasollas', compiled by the Chalukya king Someshwar 111 in the year 1130AD referring to idli, upma and dosa!! I understand that Kshema Kutuhal is another sanskrit book on the subject of cookery. Malini Bisen also refers to another book the 'subhruta samhita' a medical text written between 2nd and 4th century BC that prescribes seasonal foods and flavours. Regards Asha ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 5 18:03:22 1999 From: ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM (Asha Naidu) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 10:03:22 -0800 Subject: Information on sesame (tila) Message-ID: <161227044613.23782.9287136874340032376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr Ganesan As I am afraid of diverting this thread, please see under the heading 'Possible Research Avenues - Indian Food Histories' Regards Asha ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Jan 5 09:27:16 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 10:27:16 +0100 Subject: SV: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044596.23782.2959009617553035356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I wonder if Dr. Fosse, or anyone else well-acquainted with this subject, > would summarize for new list entrants, like myself, as to how this topic > achieved closure. In selectively reading the archives it appears to me that > more facts are needed for closure since both competing theories have > deficiencies. I would suggest that people interested in the matter simply start by consulting the literature on the subject. The Indo-European question is a vast field. A great many books have been published in the field, and two new books are coming up this year that will - hopefully - clarify matters even more (I am thinking of Edwin Bryants book on Indigenous Aryanism and another book on modern migration theory. Madhav Deshpande would have the bibliographic details on the latter). Bibliographic references abound in the material in the Indology archives. Writing a summary for the list would be a humongous task and would clearly break the limits for these postings. > Barring any new findings, this topic could be treated as a dormant subject > but definitely not a closed one. Any thoughts? BTW, I am not a scholar but > would like to be one. The subject is of course not closed, but the discussion here on Indology list between Indigenists and Migrationists has reached an impasse. People are more or less repeating the same arguments over and over again, and this means that a pause is called for. Cooler heads produce better thoughts. I cannot, of course, tell others what to do, but I don't intend myself to spend more time discussing this subject on the list for some time to come! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 5 18:51:29 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 10:51:29 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227044617.23782.17614596011959225672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/3/99 6:56:25 PM Central Standard Time, narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > Though the members of the list are sure to take note of the wish > that the word dAkSiNAtya should mean Tamilians and Malayalis only, > the refernces cited are not sufficient to warrant such a > conclusion. For that we need a reference like " ONLY people who > use cOru for cooked rice are dAkSiNAtyAs." In the original posting by Dr. S. Palaniappan, Prof. Ashok Aklujkar has written the following: "The third helpful consideration in ascertaining the common meaning of dAkSiNAtya in the Classical period is the remark by several authors to the effect that the word cora/caura in the language of the dAkSiNAtyas means odana 'cooked rice' not thief;" Note the words "in the language of the dakSiNAtyas". Now for a logical thinker, "in the language of the dakSiNAtyas" differs from "in a language of the dAkSiNAtyas". The latter would mean that dAkSiNAtyas referred to speakers of many languages, i.e., cora meant cooked rice in one of many languages spoken by the dAkSiNAtyas. But "in the language of the dAkSiNAtyas", with the use of the definite article, means that the Classical authors were using the term dAkSiNAtyas to refer to the speakers of one particular language. >I am sure the search for such a reference will continue. The list can do without such snide remarks. With best regards, Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 5 17:13:28 1999 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 11:13:28 -0600 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <19990105165808.3387.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044608.23782.5642118619151703896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry, Mr. Ganesan. I should have said "some" Europeans or Dravida Kazhagam ideologues. Wrote in haste, please forgive me for missing "some". I can understand your nonpolitical thoughts. Thank you. Regards, Subrahmanya At 08:58 AM 1/5/99 PST, you wrote: >Sn. Subrahmanya writes: >>Realizing that there is no racial evidence,Mr.Andronov wants us to >> believe a strong native tradition was overshadowed by a few >> nomadic migrants, who then managed to impose their language and >> religion over a overwhelming majority by recruiting from >>the native population !!. >>Just like their European descendants of today, I presume ? - >>This is classic European supremacist nonsense that has to be avoided. > > > (The last statement is higly racist.) > > Note that Andronov has explained this a full three decades > before Indigenous Aryans started fighting with Mueller > dead for a 100 years. > > Languages spread by elite dominance strategy. Look at > Spanish spreading as "prestige" language in Latin America. > Indo-Europeans have been successful in spreading their > IE language on native populations. Hittites, Greeks, Celts > did spread their language on the natives. The Aryans did the same > thing. > > For a start of the substratum influence: > a) A. F. Sjoberg, The Dravidian contribution to the > Development of Indian Civilization: A call for a > Reassessment. > Comparative Civilizations Review, v.23, p.40-74, 1990 > b) A. F. Sjoberg, The impact of Dravidian on Indo-Aryan: > An overview, > in Edgar C. Polome, Reconstruction of Languages and Cultures, > 1992, p. 507-529 > c) J. C. von Munkwitz-Smith, Substratum influence in > Indo-Aryan grammar, PhD dissertation, 1995, U. Minnesota. > > Studies on bilingualism, pidginization, languistic cahnge, > IA retroflexion, Indian place names, linguistic masks > for power and internal colonialism are relevent too. > > Hope in the near future, linguists take up the study > of how linguistic change to IA was done. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 5 19:14:28 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 11:14:28 -0800 Subject: Information on sesame (tila) Message-ID: <161227044620.23782.5104391055040570559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > Burrow derives Sanskrit tila from Dravidian *ceL or *teL related to Tamil >eL > (eLLu in colloquial usage). Kuiper says "Sanskrit tila-, m. "the sesamum >plant > or seed" and the prefixed form jartila- "wild sesamum" TS ZB must be > borrowings from Munda." Perhaps there are other instances where the Proto Dravidian short e is changed to i in Sanskrit, especially in the radical syllable? Also, would not the Dravidian derivation be hard put to explain the prefixed form? In either case, there is no phonetic resemblance to the Akkadian form, ellu. > Frank C. Southworth in "Reconstructing social context from language: Indo- > Aryan and Dravidian Pre-history", p. 270, says "Sesame seeds were found at > Harappa, one of the major sites in the Indus Valley civilization (Vats 1940). > Sesame was important both as a food and an ingredient of religious ceremonies > inancient India, and is still so today. Assuming a connection between > Dravidian eLLu and Akkadian ellu, it is impossible to determine without > further evidence which was the source, or whether there was perhaps some third > source. Nonetheless, since sesame was grown in the ancient Indus Valley and > was involved in the trade with mesopotemia (see Ratnagar 1981:52 (note 30), > 80), the resemblance between the words for sesame provides support for > assuming some sort of relationship between speakers of Dravidian languages and > the Indus Valley civilization." Regarding sesame in the Indus Valley, this is what Prof. Parpola has to say (Deciphering the Indus Script, CUP, 1994. p169) "D. Bedigian (reference below: LS) has suggested that sesame may have come to Mesopotamia from India with the Indus trade, and in this connection called attention to the similarity between Akkadian ellu / Ulu 'sesame oil' and Sumerian ilu / ili on the one hand, and SDr eL, eLLu 'sesamum indicum' on the other. This argument is not fully satisfactory however: (1) according to most recent research, sesame is an originally African cultivar; (2) the evidence for sesame in the Indus Civilization is rather poor; and (3) the quoted Dr word can be reconstructed only for Proto-South Dravidian and not to Proto-Dravidian. " Bedigian, Dorothea. Se-gis-i, sesame or flax. Bulletin on Sumerian Agriculture 2: 159-78. Indian palaeo-botanists Vishnu-Mittre and R. Savithri in their paper Food Economy of the Harappans discuss various grains and seeds in Harappa and quote the original excavation reports incl. the 1941 report of MS Vats: "Finally a lump of charred sesame, No. 8827, was found in Trench V, Mound F, depth six feet, in association with Stratum III." They go on to add " Owing to their non-availability, these materials could not be examined." (in Harappan Civilization: A Recent Perspective, G. Possehl (ed.), Oxford & IBH, New Delhi, 1993. p 206) The evidence for sesame, IMHO, does not seem to be strong. Thanks and Warm Regards. == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jan 5 13:05:10 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 13:05:10 +0000 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044598.23782.12584210526378738743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Kambhampaty, Krishna wrote: > I wonder if Dr. Fosse, or anyone else well-acquainted with this subject, > would summarize for new list entrants, like myself, as to how this topic > achieved closure. In selectively reading the archives it appears to me that > more facts are needed for closure since both competing theories have > deficiencies. > > Barring any new findings, this topic could be treated as a dormant subject > but definitely not a closed one. Any thoughts? BTW, I am not a scholar but > would like to be one. This is a very good idea, and I am hoping to post a paper by Ed Bryant on the INDOLOGY web site in the not too distant future which will fulfil this purpose. In the meantime, I'm afraid it is a matter of picking through the archives. I have not seen anything new on this topic posted to the list for a long time; just a great deal of emotion. Dominik From ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 5 23:54:15 1999 From: ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM (Asha Naidu) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 15:54:15 -0800 Subject: Possible Research Avenues - Indian Food Histories Message-ID: <161227044622.23782.5115981409974213340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I write to post a brief amendment to my previous mail on this subject. I thank Jacub Cjeka for bringing it to my attention. It should have been Susruta samhita and the date was between 2nd and 4th century AD (notBC). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jan 5 15:58:48 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 15:58:48 +0000 Subject: Sindhi history Message-ID: <161227044604.23782.10923082316393422866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr Dhada, I am forwarding your message to the INDOLOGY list. Yours, Dominik Wujastyk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 18:59:28 +0000 Cc: Mustafah Dhada Subject: Re: -- No Subject -- On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 17:03:27 -0500 Mustafah Dhada wrote: > I have recently joined the list and therefore am new at this. I am > conducting research on migration patterns of Sindhis stretching as far back > as the eleventh century. My particular interest is migration emanating from > Sindh itself in and around Hala outward bound into the southeast and or > thence overseas. If you have any bibliographic pointers and ideas as to > archival and or primary sources I would appreciate an e-buzz. Rather than > clog the list with responses I would suggest that perhaps respondents use my > dhada at mindspring.com address. I will eventually collate the information in a > synthesis and post it for others to view and critique. > > One possible source I thought useful to prove to pin this topic to the > impirical wall was to deploy genealogical records. I am however, not aware > that such things do exist and if they do how accurate are these records > likely to be in the context of apocrypohal orality or in terms of > telescoping distortions of records set to paper years after the event. > M. Dhada., FRSA, D.Phil(Oxon), > Associate Professor > Graduate School of International Affairs and Development > Clark Atlanta University > 3360 Archwood Drive, Atlanta, Georgia 30340 > Telephones: (Home) 770 939 1698; (Office) 404 880 6669 > Fax: (Home) 770 939 4755; (Office) 404 880 6676 > Home e-mail: dhada at mindspring.com > Office e-mail: mdhada at cau.edu > __________________________ > Motto: Nunquam Dedere! From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Tue Jan 5 21:58:26 1999 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 21:58:26 +0000 Subject: Macintosh filter for VRI Pali texts Message-ID: <161227044627.23782.1496364757892754527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have created a filter (for use with the Macintosh SuperReplace shareware program) to convert the texts on the Vipassana Research Institute CD-ROM to the coding of the Normyn font. Frank Snow has kindly allowed me to make it available on his FreePali website: http://www.freepali.org/mac/ The VRI Dhammagiri CD-ROM is available free of charge; version 2.0 contains the Canon, Commentaries, Subcommentaries and a number of other texts. L.S. Cousins MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Tue Jan 5 16:28:23 1999 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (Birgit Kellner) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 01:28:23 +0900 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044647.23782.2077528189568097848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Rabe wrote: > > A final point for this round: the older wife, played by the unfairly > maligned Shabana Azmi, is named Radha [not Parvati] and the name is not > idly choosen. And so I close with this query: can anyone clarify the role > played by a Radha in the famous Bollywood film of the mid 60s, _Sangam_? > There's an ingenious allusion to that film in _Fire_ that I wasn't able to > fully grasp, having only seen the former once [in Varanasi in '67!] and > remembering NOTHING about it except that refrain, _Bol Radhe Bol Radha, > Sangam ho na hin_ or something like that. > > Please. Anybody...I really want to know! > And trust others on this list won't mind learning either, "Sangam", aka "The Confluence", 1964, 238 min, colour, Hindi, directed by Raj Kapoor. The film was a huge box-office success not only in South Asia, but also in the Middle East and Russia. Here's the pertinent entry in Ashish Rajadhyaksha's/Paul Willemen's "Encyclopedia of Indian Cinema" (Delhi/OUP 1994), p.355f.: "Kapoor's first colour film is presented as a glossy love triangle but can equally well be seen, along with many Indian triangles, as a romance between two men interrupted by a woman. Sunder (Kapoor) is from a lower class than his childhood friends Gopal (Kumar) and Radha (Vyjayanthimala). Although both men, bosom pals, are in love with Radha, Sunder ignores the fact that he and Gopal share the same object of desire. When Sunder finally wins and marries Radha by joining the air force and becoming a national hero, Gopal puts male bonding and his passion for his friend above his attachment to Radha and withdraws. However, Sunder is obsessed by thoughts of Radha's possible infidelity. In the end, Gopal reassures Sunder of Radha's fidelity and then commits suicide. The film includes a plea by Radha for fairer treatment of women but the logic of the story demonstrates that the most valuable relationship a man can have is with another man. Mahesh Bhatt (1993) commented that the hit song _Bol radha bol, sangam ho ga ke nahin_, sung by Mukesh, 'triggers off memories of a beautiful woman in a picturesque setting dressed in a swimsuit (while) Raj Kapoor, clad in shorts, hangs from a tree with a bagpipe under one arm and begs his beloved Radha for an orgasmic release'. Another hit was _Ye mera prem patra_, sung by Rafi. One of the early films to use locations in Europe as exotic backdrops as Sunder and Radha honeymoon in snowy Switzerland and 'decadent' Paris, where, to the song _Main kya karoon ram mujhe buddha mil gaya_, Radha behaves like a prostitute to taunt her husband's virility." A brief characterization of "Sangam" on its background in Indian film history can also be found in Sumitra S. Chakravarty, "National Identity in Indian popular Cinema 1947-1987" (1993, Univ. of Texas Press), pp.216-218. Chakravarty describes Sangam as extolling "male camaraderie and sacrifice at the expense of a ruthlessly exploitative male-female relationship wherein the woman's purpose is to gratify the hero's ego". Lastly, Sangam is also dealt with in Wimal Dissanyake/Malti Sahai's "Raj Kapoor's Films - Harmony of Discourses" (Delhi 1988: Vikas Publishing House), pp.67-73. By the way, the connection between Bollywood cinema and masked male homosexuality constitutes a common theme in critical writings on Indian cinema (pursued with varying degrees of analytical sophistication), and it seems to me that this particular cinematographic context needs to be taken into account in one's reading of "Fire" (I haven't seen "Fire" yet, and doubt that it will hit the cinemas/video rentals in Japan soon ...). As is often the case when Indian films are released in the West, their positioning either within or against Bollywood, and the way in which they comment upon themes that are current in Bollywood cinema, is neglected in their critical reception. This is largely because Bollywood cinema as such is either unknown or tends to be, from a viewpoint of so-called "high culture", dismissed as vulgar, gaudy, and so on. It seems to me that most reviews of "Fire" (those that I've read) have so far focused on the reactions that it provoked, but have not pointed to the way in which sexuality is represented in Bollywood films, and the way in which "Fire" (presumably) can be read as commenting not only on lesbianism in Indian society, but also on the depiction of homosexuality, or the presence of homosexual undercurrents, in Indian films. [If one reads ancient Sanskrit texts under the aspect of their relation to other ancient Sanskrit texts, one can just as well read contemporary Indian films under the aspect of their relation to other Indian films ...] There's lots of food for thought here, though perhaps not particularly relevant for the interests of the majority of this list's "community". Regards, -- birgit kellner department for indian philosophy hiroshima university From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Wed Jan 6 08:46:17 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 02:46:17 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044634.23782.9345829185261332214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Sumedh Mungee [Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:19:07 -0600]: Believe it or not, the fear HAD crossed my mind, that discussion of _Fire_ might provoke a _flame war_. But I took the risk, and would like to douse whatever ill-will I can now, in hopes that we actually can have a civil conversation about it. And why? Surely not to ferrett out dirt to besmirch the good name of anyone or any national or religious group. You don't know me, nor Partha Banerjee who affirmed my positive response to Deepa Metha's film [nor do I know anything more about him than what he wrote] , so let me assure you that I for one do not wish to prolong this thread for the purpose maligning you, or even those Hindutva vigilantes, if I may coin a phrase, who have nearly succeeded by their threats and violent acts to have the film withdrawn from public view in India. Rather, I still want to participate in chaste academic discussion of her film, _as an indological text_. Seriously. So, next, it may be helpful to clarify the context of MY curiousity about it. It arose 15 months ago in the course of my indological labors, teaching a unit on the Ramayana to an undergraduate class of American art students. [I can't help it. It's my job, and I also take them most semesters to the Rama temple in Lemont, Illinois , a temple complex whose sthapati was the esteemed Thiru Ganapathi Sastri of Mamallapuram. ] I hadn't heard about the film yet, when one or two students mentioned having just seen it at the Chicago Film Festival [yes, in response to my slides of Vijayanagar period mss. paintings and Thai mural depictions [among others] of Sita's _Agni Pariksha_ [to use a phrase from Metha's film]. Naturally, I enquired too as to whether or not the film touched on the subject of _kitchen accident_ deaths of under-doweried newlyweds! Their responses were rather imprecise--more disclaimers than affirmations, as I recall--as if the title role of _Fire_ was more metaphorical than literal. Now that the video has become available for rent, naturally, and with some trepidation, given the recent news out of Connaught Place about the trashing of Regal Theatre, I felt I had a professional responsibility to see it for myself, despite any qualms about lesbianism I might have as a heterosexual male. Hence, it was basically with a sense of relief after seeing how gingerly the film touched on all the above mentioned topics, that I felt honor bound as a professional indologist [doing it for money too, not just love] to alert others in this micro-universe that the film is, in my judgement, extremely moral, artistically successful on many levels and thus deserving of a large audience of informed viewers. And that's why I first commented on the genuine sympathy and humanity with which even ostensibly villanous characters are portrayed: the duty-demanding or pleasure-pursuing two brothers of the joint family, about all. To repeat: they are not portrayed as ogres...both seemed plausible and attractive characters in many ways, and they too, like Nandita Das, deserve plaudits for their acting [i.e., KULBUSHAN KHARBANDA as ASHOK, and JAAVED JAAFERI as JATIN.] A final point for this round: the older wife, played by the unfairly maligned Shabana Azmi, is named Radha [not Parvati] and the name is not idly choosen. And so I close with this query: can anyone clarify the role played by a Radha in the famous Bollywood film of the mid 60s, _Sangam_? There's an ingenious allusion to that film in _Fire_ that I wasn't able to fully grasp, having only seen the former once [in Varanasi in '67!] and remembering NOTHING about it except that refrain, _Bol Radhe Bol Radha, Sangam ho na hin_ or something like that. Please. Anybody...I really want to know! And trust others on this list won't mind learning either, Michael D. Rabe, Ph.D. Assoc. Prof of South Asian Art History School of the Art Institute of Chicago & Saint Xavier University P.S. to Sumedh: the provocation of Christian sensibilites along the lines you imagined has been done. In a critically respected Greek novel [by Kazanzakis, sp?] later brought to film by Martin Scorsese, _The Last Temptation of Christ_. Your point is well taken, insofar as offended conversatives took to the streets and marched with placards of oppostion in front of theaters throughout the U.S. [if not elsewhere?] when it came out in the early 1980s. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 6 13:08:43 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 05:08:43 -0800 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044636.23782.8595546018884910474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< [I can't help it. It's my job, and I also take them most semesters to the Rama temple in Lemont, Illinois , a temple complex whose sthapati was the esteemed Thiru Ganapathi Sastri of Mamallapuram. ] I hadn't heard about the film yet, when one or two students mentioned having just seen it at the Chicago Film Festival [yes, in response to my slides of Vijayanagar period mss. paintings and Thai mural depictions [among others] of Sita's _Agni Pariksha_ [to use a phrase from Metha's film]. >>>> The ordeal by fire is beautifully described by Kamban in 9th or 11th century AD in the best book ever written in Tamil. See: David Shulman, Fire and Flood: the testing of Sita in Kampan's Iraamaavataaram in Paula Richman, Many Ramayanas, OxUP, 1991. Yours N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 6 14:48:38 1999 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 08:48:38 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: <199901060846.CAA27528@dune.artic.edu> Message-ID: <161227044643.23782.16218024013601344664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Rabe might be interested in this article by the well known(?) Ashok Row Kavi. http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/dec/16fire.htm IMHO, discussion of Fire or for that matter politics is nor mentioned in this list's charter. If current day Indian issues/politics are ok for this list, then I guess it should be mentioned as such. General guidelines as to what is and what is not appropriate should be mentioned. Selective picking of topics in my opinion is not correct. Subrahmanya. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 6 19:11:30 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 11:11:30 -0800 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044648.23782.4496416085809151576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The West has turned away from its Victorian values, the Church dogma,.. Look at the TV, sexy websites, beaches, ... But the Land of Kamasutra, Khajuraho, Konarak is trying to get to the 19th century values of Islam or Christianity. Just like Indians have a special pleasure in questiong Max Mueller's motives, I guess. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Jan 6 05:47:19 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 11:17:19 +0530 Subject: 'sari' (Attn: H M Hubey) Message-ID: <161227044624.23782.15276600014998865323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan 6, 99 If the word 'sari' is meant to stand for Indian women's clothing (overwear!), then it comes from Sk 'shaaTii' through Pk 'saaDii', a word still in use in Marathi. The sound D in Indian languages is represented by r in English spellings of Indian words. (DhArwAr for DhArwAd.) KSA From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 6 19:18:49 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 11:18:49 -0800 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. Message-ID: <161227044650.23782.7030686303680884823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Often times, Imitation Verbatim is the best form of flattery. Thanks, N. Ganesan Sn. Subrahmanya writes: <<<< I am sorry, Mr. Ganesan. I should have said "some" Europeans or Dravida Kazhagam ideologues. Wrote in haste, please forgive me for missing "some". I can understand your nonpolitical thoughts. Thank you. Regards, Subrahmanya >>>> At 08:58 AM 1/5/99 PST, N. Ganesan wrote: >Sn. Subrahmanya writes: >>Realizing that there is no racial evidence,Mr.Andronov wants us to >> believe a strong native tradition was overshadowed by a few >> nomadic migrants, who then managed to impose their language and >> religion over a overwhelming majority by recruiting from >>the native population !!. >>Just like their European descendants of today, I presume ? - >>This is classic European supremacist nonsense that has to be avoided. > > > (The last statement is higly racist.) > > Note that Andronov has explained this a full three decades > before Indigenous Aryans started fighting with Mueller > dead for a 100 years. > > Languages spread by elite dominance strategy. Look at > Spanish spreading as "prestige" language in Latin America. > Indo-Europeans have been successful in spreading their > IE language on native populations. Hittites, Greeks, Celts > did spread their language on the natives. The Aryans did the same > thing. > > For a start of the substratum influence: > a) A. F. Sjoberg, The Dravidian contribution to the > Development of Indian Civilization: A call for a > Reassessment. > Comparative Civilizations Review, v.23, p.40-74, 1990 > b) A. F. Sjoberg, The impact of Dravidian on Indo-Aryan: > An overview, > in Edgar C. Polome, Reconstruction of Languages and Cultures, > 1992, p. 507-529 > c) J. C. von Munkwitz-Smith, Substratum influence in > Indo-Aryan grammar, PhD dissertation, 1995, U. Minnesota. > > Studies on bilingualism, pidginization, languistic cahnge, > IA retroflexion, Indian place names, linguistic masks > for power and internal colonialism are relevent too. > > Hope in the near future, linguists take up the study > of how linguistic change to IA was done. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 6 19:29:45 1999 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 13:29:45 -0600 Subject: The Aryans (again); 19th century discourse. In-Reply-To: <19990106191849.14625.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044652.23782.6282992781614490731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Often times, Not Always !! Anyway, I would not have been able to learn it anywhere else. You are welcome, and Thank You. Subrahmanya At 11:18 AM 1/6/99 PST, you wrote: > Often times, Imitation Verbatim is the best form of flattery. > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Jan 6 08:39:41 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 13:39:41 +0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044629.23782.11469365521886083800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 13:19 04.01.99 -0600, Sumedh Mungee wrote: >It is a well known fact here that Fire was a movie >dominated by muslims (like Shabana Azmi). Why did they not choose >characters of their own religion? I believe the film was made by one Deepa Mehta. The name suggests that she is not a Muslim. Nor does the name Nandita Das suggest that the person is a Muslim. RZ From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Jan 6 08:39:45 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 13:39:45 +0500 Subject: Possible Research Avenues - Indian Food Histories Message-ID: <161227044632.23782.7890374416870249482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:02 05.01.99 PST, Asha Naidu wrote: >I noted with disappointment that Achaya did not have much material on >Andhra food history - and that there was atleast one inaccuracy. However >I live in hope that at some future date, funding will be provided for >necessary research to be carried out on food histories of Tamilnadu, >Andhra, Maharashtra, Gujarat, UP and all other Indian states > > He gives the name of the food manual done in Chalukya court. > (bojana kutUhala?) A Kashmiri poet wrote the biography of a > Chalukyan king. Perhaps it is worth mentioning that the _Suupa;saastra_, a cookbook in Kannada by Mangarasa III (who lived in the early 16th century), has been published by the University of Mysore several years ago. RZ Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 6 22:12:15 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 14:12:15 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc.-1 Message-ID: <161227044663.23782.4228461051253534697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< According to Monier Wiiliams, dakSiNAcala is the malaya mountain which is another name for potiyil. >>> malayagiri- It is mentioned in BRhat-saMhitaa (XIV, II). The hermitage of Agastya was situated on the MalayakUTa which was also known as zrIkhaNDadri or even as CandaAdri (cf. Dhoyi's pavanadUtam). .. Acording to some, the mount Candaka mentioned in the jAtaka (V, 162) is the Malayagiri. malayAcala- The epic tradition locates it in South India. JimUtavAhana took shelter on this mountain after renouncing his sovereignty (bodhisattvaavadAna kalpalatA). The padmapurANa (Ch. 133) mentions kalyANatIrtha in MalayAcala. DakSiNAdri mentioned in the KAvyAdarza (III, 150) by DaNDin is the same as the Malayaacala according to the commentator. (p. 16, B. C. Law, Mountains and rivers of India, 1968, Calcutta) Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 6 22:17:33 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 14:17:33 -0800 Subject: Harshacarita quote Message-ID: <161227044666.23782.18138676223053489771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Read somewhere that BaaNa's Harshacharitam tells that Bhairava ascetics travelled from the South to North to teach Shaivism. Is something to this effect mentioned in BaaNa's Harshacharitam. Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 6 23:12:10 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 15:12:10 -0800 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227044668.23782.13026857246535665075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SNS>gosh....what a frustrated man ! ... SNS>Actually, the long rant is very useful. SNS>We get an idea of the quality and venom of the people SNS>who have been interpreting Indian history so far. SNS>And for the first time in a long time there is atleast the SNS>possibilty of responding to the venom that the so called SNS>"scholars" spew. SNS>Subrahmanya Observing Indology rather shows how frustrated you are :-) In another message, I saw - the list can do without such snide remarks. The very same applies here too. Do you have any analytical response to Prof. Smith's Classifying the universe or Prof. Ganesan's formulation of how varna exploitation got going? Swaminathan Madhuresan Bombay, India _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Jan 6 20:13:16 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 15:13:16 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc.-1 Message-ID: <161227044655.23782.4776413941376813045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Considering its length, I am splitting the posting into multiple parts. In a message dated 1/5/99 1:02:49 PM Central Standard Time, chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > But "in the language of the dAkSiNAtyas", > with the use of the definite article, means that the Classical > authors were using the term dAkSiNAtyas to refer to the > speakers of one particular language. I agree. While theoretically dAkSiNAtyas could mean southerners in general, the references given by Aklujkar lead to the conclusion that for this group of Classical authors cited, the dAkSiNAtyas were Tamil speakers. If one were to wonder why specifically Tamil speakers were indicated by the term dAkSiNAtyas, a valid reason can be given. In the inscription South Indian Inscriptions Volume 14, No. 87, I cited earlier, the name of the officer who was well-versed in mahAbhASya was "ten2n2avan2 tamizavEL". The first word in his name "ten2n2avan2" means "the southern one" and could be described in Sanskrit as "dAkSiNAtya". The second word in the name "tamiza" is an adjectival form of Tamil or "drAviDa". (If a dot is implied orthographically over "za", then it could be the nominal form tamiz.) Is it a coincidence that we have a person (well-versed in mahAbhASya) named the equivalent of dAkSiNAtya dRAviDa? No. SII vol.14, is a collection of Pandiyan inscriptions. From ancient times, the Pandiyan kings were known as "ten2n2avar" or "ten2n2ar" (southern ones) the singular form being "ten2n2avan". And Pandiyan royal officials had the pre-fix title "ten2n2avan" conferred on them. For instance, the zaivite saint mANikkavAcakar who was said to be a minister of the Pandiyan king bore the title "ten2n2avan piramarAyan2". The land ruled by them was called "ten2 pulam" (southern land/region) or "ten2 nATu" (southern country). The "potiyil" mountain (potalaka) is in the Pandiyan country. In fact Pandiyan king was called "ten2n2am poruppan2" or the one of southern mountain. potiyil was also called "ten2 malai" or southern mountain. Compare this with the usages in Sanskrit. According to Monier Wiiliams, dakSiNAcala is the malaya mountain which is another name for potiyil. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Jan 6 20:13:18 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 15:13:18 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc.-2 Message-ID: <161227044657.23782.11459249352656684742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Recently Dr. N. Ganesan has established that potiyil is potalaka and said the following: "Dandin calls Potiyil as the Southern mountain(dakSiNAdri)." "dakSiNApathe potalako nAma parvatah" (GanDavyUha, p. 158, ch. 29, line 20) Moreover, the Pandiyan kingdom was well-known to Classical Sanskrit authors. In his book, "Indian Acculturation: Agastya and Skanda" G. S. Ghurye gives the following: "In the Ramayana we have a much more explicit and expanded reference to Agastya's association with the extreme south-east and the Pandyas. It occurs when Sugriva, organising his campaign of search for Sita, describes various parts of the country, and assigns them for search to his lieutenants. (Ram. IV, 41.13-20). After mentioning the country of the Cholas, the Pandyas and Keralas, Sugriva fixes his emphasis on the Malaya mountain, otherwise known as Ayomukha, i.e., 'Iron-faced'. He fixes up the Kaveri river there and also the Tamraparni not far away and says: "You will see at the top of the mountain Agastya the greatest of sages sitting composed shining like like the sun." There "you will ask Agastya's permission and then can cross the Tamraparni and proceeding further you will see the Pandyakavata, the gate of the Pandyas. At that point you will notice the Mahendra mountain which was cast by Agastya in the ocean. Beyond that there is the island which is cursed Ravana's abode." The Tamraparni, Pandya Kavata and Mt. Mahendra are mentioned in Kautilya's Arthasastra (II, II, 29) as sources of pearls." (p.21) (Ghurye also identifies potiyil with potalaka.) In the following CT poem, the Pandiyan king is praised as wearing the pearls from his see and sandal from his mountain. tan2 kaTal piRanta muttin2 Aram um mun2ai tiRai koTukkum tuppin2 tan2 malai teRal aru marapin2 kaTavuL pENi kuRavar tanta cAntin2 Aram um iru pEr Aram um ezil peRa aNiyum tiru vIz mArpin2 ten2n2avan2.... (akanAn2URu 13-1-6) Ghurye also says the following: "Kalidasa speaks of the south as the quarter of the earth which is presided over or occupied by Agastya (Raghuvamsa,IV, 44)...He was the ooficiating priest for a Pandya king in the performance of great Vedic sacrifices like the horse-sacrifice. The Pandya king was a contemporary of the Ikshvaku king Aja, Rama's grandfather, and was present at the choice-marriage of the Vidarbha princess Indumati. The Pandya king, having obtained a special weapon from Lord Siva had become so powerful that the overlord of Lanka (Ravana), when he left his kingdom in search of his adventurous campaign against Indra, thought it prudent to effect a peace- treaty with him so that his dominions in India, not very far from that of the Pandya king's domain should be unmolested. The capital of the Pandya king was the town known as Uraga, which, as the great commentator Mallinatha tells us, was situated on the coast of Kanyakubja, i.e. what has been known popularly as Kanyakumari or Cape Comorin. Both the Kaveri and the Tamraparni rivers are mentioned as having been in his dominion (Raghu, IV, 45-50; VI, 59-62). A long necklace worn by the king around his neck is specially mentioned." (p.31) The myths of Agastya being Pandiya's priest, the Pandyan king wearing the necklace of Indra/Harihaya and Ravana seeking peace with a Pandiyan king are mentioned in inscriptions such as the taLavAypuram plates of parAntaka VIranArAyanan2 and the larger cin2n2aman2ur plates of rAjasimhan2. What is surprising is Kalidasa's knowledge of these myths which are specific to Pandiyas and not pan-Indian. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Jan 6 20:13:20 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 15:13:20 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc.-3 Message-ID: <161227044659.23782.8945711436117742748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The mahAbharata says: "in the land of the pANDyas the Fords-of-agastya-and- varuNa; there too are the Holy-maidens said to be, bull among men. I shall now mention the tAmraparNi, listen, Kaunteya, where the Gods, longing for a great reward, did austerities." (The Mahabharata, translated by van Buitenan, Book of the forest, p. 401) Of course, in an earlier posting I have mentioned the association of potiyil/malaya region with grammarian tolkAppiyan2. We also have myths of the Agastya and siddhas in potiyil. trikUTa is a name of kuRRAlam a part of potiyil. potiyil has been a place of pilgrimage mentioned in cilappatikaram and maNimEkalai. malaya is invariably mentioned as one of the famous mountains in Sanskrit literature. (Even when only four are mentioned himAlaya, pariyAtra, vindhya, and malaya as in The Mahabharata, translated by van Buitenan, Book of the forest, p. 799) In his article, "Agastya Legend and the Indus Civilization" (Journal of Tamil Studies, Dec. 1986, no. 50, p. 25-27), Iravatham Mahadevan says, "According to the tradition recorded in the Matsyapurana (202, 12-13), Agastyas are classified as 'rakshasas". Ghurye notes, "The Bhagavata purana significantly, and the Vishnu, too, vouchsafes to us the relationship between Visravas and Agastya, both being proclaimed to have been born to Havirbhuva by Pulastya. Thus Agastya becomes the paternal uncle of Kubera and of Ravana too..." (p.42). The association of Agastya with rakshasas fits well with the TIkA author mentioning rAvaNa and rakSas imediately after the statement regarding VP 2.486. Thus, except one, all the various factors associated with vAkyapadIya 2.486 discussion such as dAkSiNAtya, parvata, ascetic on a mountain, rAvaNa, brahma- rakshas, trikUta, etc., can be explained by just one location - potiyil mountain - from where candrAcArya obtained the knowledge of Paninian scholarship. (No other location has explanation for so many factors.) However, the mentioning of tiliGga by the TIka is a problem. Aklujkar writes, "The attitude that may be implicit in Peterson's and Scharfe's attempts at identification also needs comment. Both these scholars write as if the TIkA identification does not exist or need not be taken seriously. This is hardly a justifiable view to take of a piece of information that is about one thousand years old; that is unlikely to have been given unless it was known to earlier students and commentators of the VP.." From this, if we take TIKa to be from about 10th century AD, how many years (5 centuries?) earlier was VP written ? What are the currently accepted dates for vAkyapadIya and TIkA? If the intervening period was long, could it be that the identification of tiliGga was a mistake made on the basis of similarity in names? Since I do not have access to some of the critical references, any information from the list will be appreciated. Regards S. Palaniappan From ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 6 23:26:54 1999 From: ashanaidu at HOTMAIL.COM (Asha Naidu) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 15:26:54 -0800 Subject: Deepa Mehta's Fire Message-ID: <161227044673.23782.7295293767040293348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The commotion over Deepa Mehta's film is reminiscent, of the fuss that was made when Ismat Chugtai in 1941, wrote a brilliantly conceived story of a lesbian relationship in her story 'Lihaf'(The quilt). A lesbian relationship between the beautiful wife of a wealthy muslim landlord and her muslim servant maid is presented by a child narrator who sees it all, yet understands it not and makes no judgements. The style of the story is an excellent balance of reticence and suggestiveness. However then as now, the story outraged the puritanical and the British Government charged Ismat with obscenity. Apparently she won the case when her lawyer argued that the story could only be understood by those who only had some knowledge of lesbianism. The story may be read in the book 'Women Writing in India', Volume 11, The 20th Century. ISBN 0 04 440874 9. Published in the US by The Feminist Press, 311 East 94 Street, New York, NY 10128, 1993. Regards Asha ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Jan 6 23:22:43 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 18:22:43 -0500 Subject: Information on sesame (tila) Message-ID: <161227044671.23782.9831050002329357106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/5/99 1:14:33 PM Central Standard Time, lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM writes: > Regarding sesame in the Indus Valley, this is what Prof. Parpola has > to say (Deciphering the Indus Script, CUP, 1994. p169) > > "D. Bedigian (reference below: LS) has suggested that sesame may have > come to Mesopotamia from India with the Indus trade, and in this > connection called attention to the similarity between Akkadian ellu / > Ulu 'sesame oil' and Sumerian ilu / ili on the one hand, and SDr eL, > eLLu 'sesamum indicum' on the other. This argument is not fully > satisfactory however: > (1) according to most recent research, sesame is an originally African > cultivar; > (2) the evidence for sesame in the Indus Civilization is rather poor; > and > (3) the quoted Dr word can be reconstructed only for Proto-South > Dravidian and not to Proto-Dravidian. " Thanks for the Parpola reference. In some aspects, it seems to be more up-to- date than the Erdosy volume. > The evidence for sesame, IMHO, does not seem to be strong. While, the evidence for sesame as eL or its reconstructed forms is weak, there is another word for sesame DEDR 3720 Ta. nU, nUvu, Te. nUvu, nuvvu, etc. which may go back to 2000-1500 BC. Regards S. Palaniappan From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Thu Jan 7 00:21:09 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 19:21:09 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044638.23782.5588351060546327383.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > > > Though the members of the list are sure to take note of the wish > > that the word dAkSiNAtya should mean Tamilians and Malayalis only, > > the refernces cited are not sufficient to warrant such a > > conclusion. For that we need a reference like " ONLY people who > > use cOru for cooked rice are dAkSiNAtyAs." Dakshinatya is generally considered a synonym for Dakshinapatha (ie. the Deccan). It vaguely includes all peoples south of the Vindhyas. In general, it would imply a Maharashtrian. This tract was Aryanized comparatively early on, cf. the Satavahana Prakrit Maharashtri inscriptions. Dravidians would not, in the technical sense, be included, although these may have been on some occasions of the use of this word. Samar From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Thu Jan 7 01:05:06 1999 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 20:05:06 -0500 Subject: 'sari' (Attn: H M Hubey) Message-ID: <161227044677.23782.11741132703642735550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there a root from which this word derives? What is its etymology? K. S. Arjunwadkar wrote: > > Jan 6, 99 > > If the word 'sari' is meant to stand for Indian women's clothing > (overwear!), then it comes from Sk 'shaaTii' through Pk 'saaDii', a word > still in use in Marathi. The sound D in Indian languages is represented by > r in English spellings of Indian words. (DhArwAr for DhArwAd.) > KSA -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Thu Jan 7 01:10:31 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 20:10:31 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044641.23782.14097201770276536111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Sumedh Mungee wrote about Partha Banerjee's reply: > And it will happen every time minorities like you try to subvert > the feelings of a majority. This statement arises due to the illusion that `Hindus form the majority of the population of India'. That is patently false. The official number of `Hindus' is around 80 % of the Indian Republic, which is false. Now, - Dalits and Dravidians ( together 30 % of India ) have declared themselves as followers of Animism and Shaivism (the Dravidian religion) respectively (cf Ambedkar's books). Subtracting that, it leaves only 50 % Hindu. - The above statistic classes followers of Sufi saints as `Hindu', so that the % of Indian Muslims is officially 12 %. Adding the followers of Sufi saints to the Muslim population, that percentage rises to 20 %, and that of Hindus falls to 42 %. - The bulk of Bengali Hindus are Communists, ie. Atheists. Yes, you have to face it, atheism exists in India and is widely followed. Subtracting the roughy 7 % Atheists (the % of Bengalis), the percentage of Hindus falls to 35 %. - Subtracting Tantrics (Indo-Tibetan religions), Buddhists, Jains, etc. the percentage drops still further. - Rajputs are descendants of Hunnic etc. immigrants in the 5th century AD. They are thus followers of various Solar religions (`Saura') and are also not Hindu. Nor are they `Indo-Aryans'. They are invaders from outside India. Subtracting the roughly 5 % Rajputs leaves only 30 % Hindu. In other words, the percentage of Hindus (ie. Orthodox Vaishnavites) is barely 30 % of the Indian Republic. That is not enough to form a `majority' (it is also the rough fraction of population that votes BJP). This 30 % includes all of the Indo-Aryan castes, like Brahmans (4 % of Inda's population), Kshatriyas (approx. 5 %) and Vaisyas (less than 5 %), and several Aryanized castes. This 30 %, in a democracy, can't enforce values on the 70 %. That's why the attempts to enforce singing of Vande Mataram and sacrifices to Bharat Mata on a daily basis failed. > That is what happened in the French Revolution. That > is what happened at Babri Masjid, and against Fire. > And it will happen every time minorities like you try to subvert > the feelings of a majority. And that is what happened in 1998, when the sinister attempts by a 4 % minority to enforce Sanskrit on the Indian population failed. And when the 30 % tried to enforce Orthodox Vaishnavite religion onto the remaining 70 % in 1998 ( ie. the failed attempt to enforce singing of Sarasvati hymns on a daily basis in schools etc.). That is also what happened in the film Bandit Queen, where minorities oppressed majorities. > Why did the movie show the two lesbian women as Sita and Parvati ? It's > not as though Sita and Parvati are common Indian names. Indeed they are > not. Why not two muslim women engaged in homosexuality? What is your opinion about Konarak and Khajuraho ? There you will see many ancient versions of the film depicted in stone, carved by ancient Hindus. Should these be pulled down like the mosque of Babar the Tiger (`Shadow of God') ? But of course you don't want anything done to them, since they were built by Hindus. > Or how about having a movie where the Virgin Mary is having animal sex > with her father 9 months before the birth of Jesus Christ? Again, these are shown on various `Hindu' temples of India. Except that there is no Mary, but various `Hindu' gods and goddesses. Illustrated Gitagovindas show the bedroom intimacies of Krishna and various gopis, as do several temples. Beastiality is depicted in various sculptures on many Hindu temples, and the Tantras encourage such acts. What do you say about these ? Since you support a ban on the film (mainly because some Muslims were involved), but do not support a ban on these sculptures (perhaps since they were made by Hindus ?), I conclude that you are guilty of certain inconsistencies. Maybe these are merely due to a Hindu fundamentalist bias. As long as some Brahmins paint and sculpt nude Hindu gods and goddesses, it's OK, but if Muslims do the same, then they should all be killed ? If you go around vilifying the film, then, if you are consistent and your reason not fully clouded with mindless fanaticism, then you should also go around vilifying the `Hindu' sculptures at Konarak and Khajuraho, the `Hindu' scripture of Kamasutra, the `Hindu' Tantras etc. Most importantly, you have to prove to the likes of Mira Nair et al. that ancient India was a prudish society (as you assume), and not based on Kamasutra. Till the likes of you cannot prove to open-minded people that this was so, people will continue making films that, in their view, depicts ancient Indian society as it actually was. I invite you to do so on this list. If you can: 1. Prove that ancient India was Victorian in nature and 2. Condemn the `Hindu' temples that contain those sculptures, I shall withdraw my accusations against you. But as of now, your views smack of Hindu fundamentalism. > It is a well known fact here that Fire was a movie > dominated by muslims (like Shabana Azmi). Why did they not choose > characters of their own religion? Because no such sculptures adorn Muslim mosques; nor do they adorn Christian churches. > Freedom of speech! It's time we had a Statue of Responsibility to > balance out the Statue of Liberty. And some things are beyond the > reach of law. Hurting the feelings of millions of Hindus is not > illegal, but it is certainly not something you want to do repeatedly. But the film continues to run outside Mumbai. And the sculputeres still stand in the temples. As long as Orthodox Vaishnavites comprise only 30 % of the population of India, and the bulk of observers think that ancient India was akin to ancient Greece in its prudery, such films will continue to be made. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 7 02:05:19 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 21:05:19 -0500 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044645.23782.13326475173613271436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have not risen in defence of Shankara nor the query per se is being questioned.But what about the premise of worldly attachment being antagonistic to mukti infalliably? Krish. From fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Thu Jan 7 08:44:30 1999 From: fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 00:44:30 -0800 Subject: Chatterji Commemoration Vol. Message-ID: <161227044682.23782.12959706844063096776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To complete one long essay, I am urgently in need of knowing the contents of the following article: Bandyopadhyay, Pratap. 1981. 'Sanskrit indeclinables (upasargas and nipatas) and their meaning." _Suniti Kumar Chatteji Commemmoration Volume_ [please note that this is different from _Suniti Kumar Chatterjee Jubilee Volume_], pp. 45-74. Burdwan: University of Burdwan. After trying at several libraries, I have not been able to put my hands on a copy of the SKCCV. I would be grateful if those who have access to the volume/article contact me at or . Thanks. -- ashok aklujkar ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 7 02:04:59 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 07:34:59 +0530 Subject: 'sari' (Attn: H M Hubey) In-Reply-To: <36940842.89E4BBB4@montclair.edu> Message-ID: <161227044692.23782.14460506376145583627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:05 PM 1/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >Is there a root from which this word derives? What is its etymology? > >K. S. Arjunwadkar wrote: >> >> Jan 6, 99 >> >> If the word 'sari' is meant to stand for Indian women's clothing >> (overwear!), then it comes from Sk 'shaaTii' through Pk 'saaDii', a word >> still in use in Marathi. The sound D in Indian languages is represented by >> r in English spellings of Indian words. (DhArwAr for DhArwAd.) >> KSA > >-- >Best Regards, >Mark >-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity >to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged >material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, >or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons >or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you >received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the >material from any computer. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Jan 7, 99 To H M Hubey: Paanini's list of roots does note a root 'shaT' (I P.) meaning 'to be sick, to divide, separate, to be dissolved, to be weary or dejected, to go' and a root 'shaT' (X A.) meaning 'to praise, flatter' (Apte's Dictionary). As in the case of many words, it is difficult to relate the root-meaning to the meaning of the derivative in use. I failed to understand the significance of the caution at the end of your query. From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Thu Jan 7 09:39:12 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 09:39:12 +0000 Subject: 'sari' (Attn: H M Hubey) In-Reply-To: <36940842.89E4BBB4@montclair.edu> Message-ID: <161227044684.23782.1594704809805160116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, H.M.Hubey wrote: > Is there a root from which this word derives? What is its etymology? Not a "root", it seems, but a perfectly good etymology: R. L. Turner, A comparative dictionary of the Indo-Aryan languages, item 12831, cites Skt zATa- m. "strip of cloth" and numerous derivatives in MIA and NIA. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Jan 7 04:55:14 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 09:55:14 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc.-1 In-Reply-To: <646ab3e1.3693c3dc@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227044680.23782.7001582758502543117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:13 PM 1/6/99 EST, Sudalaimuthu Palaniiappan wrote: >Considering its length, I am splitting the posting into multiple parts. > >In a message dated 1/5/99 1:02:49 PM Central Standard Time, >chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > >> But "in the language of the dAkSiNAtyas", >> with the use of the definite article, means that the Classical >> authors were using the term dAkSiNAtyas to refer to the >> speakers of one particular language. I wonder whether Asok Aklujkar meant it. But since this is based on translation of sanskrit passages and sanskrit does not have articles "a", "an" and "the", I think drawing any conclusions from it will be misleading. >I agree. While theoretically dAkSiNAtyas could mean southerners in general, >the references given by Aklujkar lead to the conclusion that for this group of >Classical authors cited, the dAkSiNAtyas were Tamil speakers. If one were to >wonder why specifically Tamil speakers were indicated by the term dAkSiNAtyas, >a valid reason can be given. > >In the inscription South Indian Inscriptions Volume 14, No. 87, I cited >earlier, the name of the officer who was well-versed in mahAbhASya was >"ten2n2avan2 tamizavEL". The first word in his name "ten2n2avan2" means "the >southern one" and could be described in Sanskrit as "dAkSiNAtya". The second >word in the name "tamiza" is an adjectival form of Tamil or "drAviDa". (If a >dot is implied orthographically over "za", then it could be the nominal form >tamiz.) > This will be valid if the definite article "the" is there which I think is unlikely. regards, sarma. >Regards >S. Palaniappan From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Jan 7 15:23:21 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 10:23:21 -0500 Subject: Chatterji Commemoration Vol. -Reply Message-ID: <161227044686.23782.2275420972240217662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashok, The Burdwan 1981 vol. is entitled Suniti Kumar Chatteji commemoration volume, not SNK jubilee vol. I will have a look at it. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Asian Division LJ150 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The usual disclaimers apply. >>> Ashok Aklujkar 01/07/99 03:44am >>> To complete one long essay, I am urgently in need of knowing the contents of the following article: Bandyopadhyay, Pratap. 1981. 'Sanskrit indeclinables (upasargas and nipatas) and their meaning." _Suniti Kumar Chatteji Commemmoration Volume_ [please note that this is different from _Suniti Kumar Chatterjee Jubilee Volume_], pp. 45-74. Burdwan: University of Burdwan. After trying at several libraries, I have not been able to put my hands on a copy of the SKCCV. I would be grateful if those who have access to the volume/article contact me at or . Thanks. -- ashok aklujkar ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Jan 7 16:25:13 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 11:25:13 -0500 Subject: Chatterji Commemoration Vol. -Reply Message-ID: <161227044688.23782.16864570391025516384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashok, I have copied the article and will send it to you. It is from the 1981 Burdwan Commemoration volume. What is your current earthmail address? Allen Below are the catalog records for the two SKC Festschriften: ACCESSION: 26716575 TITLE: Suniti Kumar Chatterji jubilee volume : presented on the occasion of his sixty-fifth birthday (26th November, 1955) PLACE: [Poona : PUBLISHER: Linguistic Society of India], YEAR: 1955 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: xix, 344 p., [3] leaves of plates : port. ; 25 cm. SERIES: Indian linguistics ; v. 16 NOTES: Cover title: Chatterji jubilee volume. Includes bibliographical references. SUBJECT: Chatterji, Suniti Kumar, -- 1890-1977. Linguistics. OTHER: Chatterji, Suniti Kumar, 1890-1977. Linguistic Society of India. Chatterji jubilee volume ACCESSION: 13670584 TITLE: Suniti Kumar Chatterji commemoration volume PLACE: [Burdwan] : PUBLISHER: University of Burdwan, YEAR: 1981 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: ii, 327 p., [1] leaf of plates : port. ; 23 cm. NOTES: Spine title: S.K. Chatterji commemoration volume. Includes bibliographies. SUBJECT: Chatterji, Suniti Kumar, -- 1890-1977. India -- Languages. OTHER: Mallik, Bhaktiprasad. S.K. Chatterji commemoration volume. Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Asian Division LJ150 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The usual disclaimers apply. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 7 19:36:12 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 11:36:12 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227044707.23782.12887468744895411076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reading Prof. Aklujkar, Interpreting VP 2.486 historically (Part 3), UMich, 1991 parvatAd Agamam labdhvA ... Because the Mountain is referred by a very general term 'parvata' in the South, could it be the well known Malaya mountain occuring in many Sanskrit texts? (eg: dakSiNAcala in Monier Williams, dakSiNAdri in kAvyAdarza etc., dakSiNApathe potalako nAma parvata (GaNDavyUha, p. 158, ch. 29, line 20 in P. L. Vaidya, 1960, Buddhist Sanskrit texts, The Mithila Institute, Dharbhanga) The first two parts in this posting; the last two parts immediately follow in another posting. Regards, N. Ganesan Notes: -------------- Part I: G. S. Ghurye "Kalidasa speaks ... The capital of the Pandya king was the town known as Uraga, which as the great commentator Mallinatha tells us, was situated on the coast of Kanyakubja, ie., Kanyakumari" This "uraga" refers to Madurai, the capital of Pandyas. Periplus Maris Erythraei calls it as Argaru. The Periplus mentions pearls (K. H. Menges derives this term from tamil 'paral'.) and a fine muslin called Argaritic ( < Argaru < uragapura ?) as Pandya exports. Compare "HAlAsya" to "Uraga". HAlAsya is the well-known Sanskrit name for Madurai. S. Krishnaswami Aiyangar, Some contributions of South India to Indian culture, U. Calcuuta (Reprint: 1981) p.338 "along the coast towards the South "paralia" generally taken as equivalent to Pural or Coast; the first port in this coast region is what he calls Balita, identified with Varkkali or Janardanam. Then comes KumAri. It is also referred to as a holy bathing place, and the coast region is then described as extending eastwards till it reaches Korkai "where the pearl fisheries are" and the Periplus offers the interesting piece of information, " that they are worked by condemned criminals". Then follows another coast region with a region inland called acc. to the Periplus [1] ... The exports from this region acc. to the Periplus are the pearls collected from part of what was gathered each season in the appointed pearl fields, and a kind of fine muslin called Argaritic." p.338 "[1] Is this not more correctly Uragapura (HAlAsya or Madurai), the capital of the Pandyas? URaiyUr, the Chola capital and the country dependent thereon must have begun far north of this region- somewhere about ToNDi in the Ramnad District now." p.339 "Pliny says (McCrindle's Ancient India, Ch. IX, p.54-58): Our ladies glory in having pearls suspended from their fingers, or two or three of them dangling from their ears, delighted even with the rattling of the pearls as they knock against each other; and now at the present day, the poorer classes are even affecting them, as people are in the habit of saying that `a pearl worn by a woman in public is as good as a lictor walking before her.' Nay, even more than this, they put them on their feet, and that, not only on the laces of their sandals but all over the shoes; it is not enough to wear pearls, but they must tread upon them and walk with them under foot as well. I once saw Lollia Paulina, the wife of the Emperor Caius - it was not at any public festival, or any solemn ceremonial, but only at an ordinary betrothal entertainment - covered with emeralds and pearls, which shone in alternate layers upon her head, in her hair, in het wreaths, in her ears, upon her neck, in her bracelets, and on her fingers, and the value of which amounted in all to 40 million sesterces. .. Such are the fruits of plunder and exploitation." p. 358 "Apart from the complaints of Petronius that fashionable Roman ladies exposed their charms much too immodestly by clothing themselves in the "webs of the woven wind" as he called the muslins imported from India, Pliny says that India drained the Roman empire annually to the extent of 55 million sesterces sending in return goods which sold at a hundred times their value in India. He also says in another place that this is the price we pay for our luxuries and our women." ---------------------- In Many instances, malaya mountains are connected to nAgAs. Is it why Uraga is used as Pandya king's capital, Madurai??! a) Hsuan Tsang says the natives locate Sandalwood trees, by spotting snakes in pairs entwine them to mitigate summer heat. Thry do this in the Malaya mount, shoot an arrow to mark that they are sandalwood trees to be harvested later. (K. A. Nilakanta Sastri, Foreign notices of South India) b) bodhisattvaavadaana kalpalataa: JImUtavAhana took shelter on the Malaya mountain after renouncing his sovereignty. The famous story of JiimuutavAhana is related in the kathaa-sarit-saagara(by a Kashmiri 'saivaite author) and the bodhisattvaavadAna kalpalataa (by Kshemendra of Nepal), and is dramatized in HarSa's play, Naagaananda.JiimuutavAhana was a prince, who lived in the forest with his aged father. He was married to a princess, Malayavtii. As he was walking about, he saw on a certain occasion that a boy, named zaGkhacUDa, was followed by an attendant, who carried two red garments. The boy belonged to the Naga tribe and was chosen as the victim for GaruDa, who claimed such a bloody sacrifice every day. His mother was weeping and wailing in the neighborhood. Jiimuutavaahana offered to give his own life. In spite of the boy's protests, he donned the red garments and sat on the stone of sacrifice. GaruDa came, began to devour him. Jiimuutavaahana looked happy and contented. Garuda was astonished and soon learned his mistake. He expiated his error by repenting for his cruelty, restored all Nagas back to life. In HarSa's play, the goddess Gaurii also appears on the scene and Jiimuutavaahana is restored to life. c)The DhvanyAloka of Aanandavardhana with the Locana of Abhinavagupta, Harvard univ. press, 1990, p. 343 gives 2.27f "Anandavardhana: An example of the poetic suggestion of fancy (utprek.saadhvani) is this: In spring the Malabar wind, swollen by the breathing of snakes that encircle sandalwood trees, makes travelors swoon. For in this example the capacity of the Malabar wind to cause travelors to swoon in spring is [actually] due to its stimulation of love. But this capacity is fancied (utprek.sita) to be due to the swelling of the wind by the poisonous breath of snakes wrapped around the sandalwood trees [of Malabar]." d) Giitagovinda: >?From B. S. Miller, Love song of the Dark Lord, ColumbiaUP, GG 4th song verse 10 Winds from sandalwood mountains Blow now toward Himalayan peaks, Longing to plunge in the snows After weeks of writhing In the hot bellies of ground snakes. ...... GG. 8th song verse 1 She slanders sandalbalm and moonbeams-weariness confuses her. She feels venom from nests of deadly snakes in sandal mountain winds. Lying dejected by your desertion, fearing Love's arrows, She clings to you in fantasy, mAdhava Part II: --------- Not only Kalidasa in Raghuvamsam says Pandyas wear Indra's neclace. CilappatikAram says something like: "tEvar-kOn2 maNiyaaram ten2n2ar-kOn2 mArpin2avE!" The ruby necklace of the King of Devas is on the chest Pandya, the King of Southerners. Also, five centuries later, when Cholas defeat Pandyas in their meykkIrtti/pracAsti sections of inscriptions, Cholas proclaim they took away Pandyas' priced possession- Indra's necklace. ------------------------------- Parts III and IV are given in the next posting. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 7 19:40:53 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 11:40:53 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227044710.23782.5745740565437582757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reading Prof. Aklujkar, Interpreting VP 2.486 historically (Part 3), UMich, 1991 parvatAd Agamam labdhvA ... Because the Mountain is referred by a very general term 'parvata' in the South, could it be the well known Malaya mountain occuring in many Sanskrit texts? (eg: dakSiNAcala in Monier Williams, dakSiNAdri in kAvyAdarza etc., dakSiNApathe potalako nAma parvata (GaNDavyUha, p. 158, ch. 29, line 20 in P. L. Vaidya, 1960, Buddhist Sanskrit texts, The Mithila Institute, Dharbhanga) The first two parts were given before. The last two parts are given here. Regards, N. Ganesan Notes: -------------- Part III: --------- Aklujkar, Interpreting VP 2.486 historically (Part 3): p.4 "He (Peterson) did not even attempt to answer preliminary questions such as: Is it known that Chittore specialized in the study of grammar or of PataJjali's MB in the early centuries of Christian era? Was it considered or likely to be considered "SOUTHERN" by Bhartrihai or his students (1.2)? Was it, or was it at least believed to be, a repository of mss. of rare works? IS CANDRACARYA SAID TO HAVE VISITED IT? To propose an identification without raising even a few of these questions is to show disregard for the context of parvatAt (see also the point I make in note 13)" The Southern mountain, Malaya is called so by DaNDin & in Monier-williams dictionary. Tamil works before 5th century, puRanAnURu and CilappatikAram calls Malaya as the Southern mountain and compares it to the Northen mountain, Himalayas. It is called "parvata" in GaNDavyUha in 2-3rd centuries AD. Chinese and Tibetan Lama, Taranatha say that Candragomin went to Potalaka in Malaya mount and settled there. Taranata describes Santivaramn's journey to Potala in Malaya too. Taaraanaatha, the Tibetan lama, says that after CandragomI prayed to Tara and Avalokitezvara in DhanyakaTaka and building a hundred temples for each of them, he goes to settle down Potalka mount. Taranatha's history of Buddhism, p. 202ff. "In the DhAnyakaTaka caitya there, he [=CandragomI] worshipped TArA and Arya Avalokitezvara and built a hundred temples for each of them. He went to the Potala hill and is still living there without renouncing his mortal body". Candragomin who saved Mahabhasya tradition from extinction settled in Potalaka in the deep South, according to Taaraanaatha (1600 AD). This is consistent with the Tamil tradition (from 11th century onwards) that Siddhas' residence par excellence is Potiyil/Potikai mountain. Ptolomy calls Potikai(Potiyil) Mountain as Bettigo. Mahabhaarata vanaparvan has Agastya in the Malaya mountain. Dandin calls Potiyil as the Southern mountain(dakSiNAdri). Dandin's usage parallels with the earlier Tamil tradition from Sangam era onwards that Malaya is THE Southern mountain. PuRanaanUru and Cilappatikaaram refers to Himalayas and Potiyil (Malaya) mountains in the same line. They are the cultural symbols of North and South in early Tamil literature. Candragomin, who saved the Mahabhasya tradition from extinction went and settled down at the Mount Potalaka. He is still living there, according to Taranatha. ----------------------------------------------------- Part IV ------- Aklujkar, Interpreting VP 2.486 historically (Part 3): p.4 "He (Peterson) did not even attempt to answer preliminary questions such as: Is it known that Chittore specialized in the study of grammar or of PataJjali's MB in the early centuries of Christian era? Was it considered or likely to be considered "SOUTHERN" by Bhartrihai or his students (1.2)? Was it, or was it at least believed to be, a repository of mss. of rare works? IS CANDRACARYA SAID TO HAVE VISITED IT? To propose an identification without raising even a few of these questions is to show disregard for the context of parvatAt (see also the point I make in note 13). The more elaborate statement made by Scharfe is open to the same charge. In suggesting that parvata should be identified with CitrakuuTa, he asks none of the above questions. In addition, he makes a series of unproved assumptions." p. 24 "The implicit refusal to take parvata as 'mountain' is especially remarkable in the case of Weber and later researchers mentioned here. Weber (1862:161n) and Kielhorn (1974b) knew at the time of their relevant writings that Taaraanaatha TarkavAcaspati had given a specification of parvata as Citra-kuuTa or Tri-kuuTa. An earlier edition of Taaraanaatha's zabdArtha-ratna (the reference acc. to the third edition available to me is 1902:2) is mentioned by Weber, and Taaraanaatha's edition of SiddhAnta-kaumudI (1864:2) and Weber's article are mentioned by Kielhorn. Kielhorn also knew that PuNyarAja, an ancient commentator of VP 2.486. had understood paravatAt to be a reference to a region. Finally, it is beyond doubt that Bhandarkar and most of the later scholars mentioned here exhibit an awareness of Kielhorn's writings." Please observe that tri-kuuTa and citra-kuuTa in the parvata region of the Malaya mountain range has historical validity. The 'Saivaite tradition always says that NaTaraaja dances in five halls (sabhA/man2Ru in Tamil): a) ruby hall - ratna sabhA - ThiruvAlaGgaaDu (Karaikkaal Ammai's Nataraja decads are on TiruvaalangaaDu in 5th century. In this century, Auguste Rodin wrote a French poem seeing Tiruvaalangaadu NaTarAja in Madras museum when Ananda K. Coomaaraswamy took him there.) b) golden hall - kanaka sabhA - Chidambaram c) silver hall - rajata sabhA - Madurai d) copper hall - tAmra sabhA - TirunelvEli (River TaamraparNI cuts across that town) e) painting hall - citra sabhA - Potikai/kuRRaalam. (The citrakuuTa occurs in TiruviLaiyaaDal puraaNam.) citra sabhA for naTarAja is so named because Malaya/Potityil/Potalaka is also known as CitrakuuTa. There are many instances in Tamil literature where Malaya is called Tri-kuuTa mountains. Hence, by calling in very general terms `parvatAt', the VP 2.486 may refer to Malaya mountain of the deep South. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From emstern at NNI.COM Thu Jan 7 17:38:53 1999 From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 12:38:53 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <42164278.368fb193@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227044697.23782.2213690082007251748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:06:11 EST, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappa writes : >A. S. Ramanatha Ayyar, editor of South Indian Inscriptions Volume 14, says >"ten2n2avan2 tamizavEL, an officer of this king, is eulogized for his >scholarship in Sanskrit and Tamil in a fragmentary inscription in Tamil verse >(No. 87). He is described as a minister well-versed in the vEdas, vEdAGgas, >the different works in Sanskrit, Law, purANa, muttamiz (the three branches of >Tamil learning, viz., iyal or literature, izai or music and nATaka) and >pAtaJjalam (i.e. the original work of pataJjali)." Considering the fact the >officer was a non-brahmin, his mastery of mahAbhASya indicates that around >mid-10th century AD, the pANinian tradition was flourishing so much in >southern Tamilnadu that even non-brahmins were well-versed in it. I do not >know if such a tradition was prevalent in Andhra. Any information from >scholars in Telugu and Sanskrit will be appreciated. The term pAtaJjalam, when it refers to a branch of learning in Sanskrit literature, generally refers to the pAtaJjalaM yogaSAstram, rather than the pAtaJjalaM mahAbhASyam. As South Indian Inscriptions Volume 14 is not available to me at home, it is not clear to me if the interpretation of pAtaJjalam as the mahAbhASyam is A.S. Ramanatha Ayyar's, or S. Palaniappan's. What is the justification for the interpretation pAtaJjalam = pAtaJjalaM mahAbhASyam for this inscription? Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA telephone: 215 747 6204 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 7 20:46:04 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 12:46:04 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044715.23782.11935102642015723006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to Deep orientalism and Germanic mythology and Nazism, see Dorothy M. Figuera, The Exotic: A decadent quest, SUNY 1994 Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Thu Jan 7 18:17:41 1999 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 13:17:41 -0500 Subject: 'sari' (Attn: H M Hubey) Message-ID: <161227044699.23782.10760608857462233053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> K. S. Arjunwadkar wrote: > > Jan 7, 99 > To > H M Hubey: > Paanini's list of roots does note a root 'shaT' (I P.) meaning 'to be sick, > to divide, separate, to be dissolved, to be weary or dejected, to go' and a > root 'shaT' (X A.) meaning 'to praise, flatter' (Apte's Dictionary). As in > the case of many words, it is difficult to relate the root-meaning to the > meaning of the derivative in use. Thank you. I was wondering if this word is relatively new, say dating from the early Mogul period or something. Or else it is a remarkable coincidence. Sari means "yellow", and the word "sar" also is a verb meaning "to wrap". > I failed to understand the significance of the caution at the end of your > query. I guess I should take it off. Sometimes strange things happen, and some dimwit on USENET made changes to what I wrote and made it look like it was from me. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Jan 7 19:06:58 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 14:06:58 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044727.23782.11253370532580032175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An excellent commentary on what will happen when the Kashi Viswanath Temple (dedicated to Lodr Siva) comes up for liberation. Also, Thakurs (Rajputs, described by you earlier as Thukarians) are present at the top of the hierarchy of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. The rest of the garbage need not be commented on. Ashish ----- Original Message ----- From: Samar Abbas To: Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:10 PM Subject: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ >On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Sumedh Mungee wrote about Partha Banerjee's reply: > >> And it will happen every time minorities like you try to subvert >> the feelings of a majority. > >This statement arises due to the illusion that `Hindus form the majority >of the population of India'. That is patently false. The official number >of `Hindus' is around 80 % of the Indian Republic, which is false. Now, > >- Dalits and Dravidians ( together 30 % of India ) have declared >themselves as followers of Animism and Shaivism (the Dravidian >religion) respectively (cf Ambedkar's >books). Subtracting that, it leaves only 50 % Hindu. > >- The above statistic classes followers of Sufi saints as `Hindu', so that >the % of Indian Muslims is officially 12 %. Adding the followers of Sufi >saints to the Muslim population, that percentage rises to 20 %, and that >of Hindus falls to 42 %. > >- The bulk of Bengali Hindus are Communists, ie. Atheists. Yes, you have >to face it, atheism exists in India and is widely followed. Subtracting >the roughy 7 % Atheists (the % of Bengalis), the percentage of Hindus >falls to 35 %. > >- Subtracting Tantrics (Indo-Tibetan religions), Buddhists, Jains, etc. >the percentage drops still further. > >- Rajputs are descendants of Hunnic etc. immigrants in the 5th century AD. >They are thus followers of various Solar religions (`Saura') and are also >not Hindu. Nor are they `Indo-Aryans'. They are invaders from outside >India. Subtracting the roughly 5 % Rajputs leaves only 30 % Hindu. > >In other words, the percentage of Hindus (ie. Orthodox Vaishnavites) is >barely 30 % of the Indian Republic. That is not enough to form a >`majority' (it is also the rough fraction of population that votes BJP). >This 30 % includes all of the Indo-Aryan castes, like Brahmans (4 % of >Inda's population), Kshatriyas (approx. 5 %) and Vaisyas (less than 5 %), >and several Aryanized castes. > >This 30 %, in a democracy, can't enforce values on the 70 %. That's why >the attempts to enforce singing of Vande Mataram and sacrifices to Bharat >Mata on a daily basis failed. > >> That is what happened in the French Revolution. That >> is what happened at Babri Masjid, and against Fire. >> And it will happen every time minorities like you try to subvert >> the feelings of a majority. > >And that is what happened in 1998, when the sinister attempts by a 4 % >minority to enforce Sanskrit on the Indian population failed. And when >the 30 % tried to enforce Orthodox Vaishnavite religion onto >the remaining 70 % in 1998 ( ie. the failed attempt to enforce singing of >Sarasvati hymns on a daily basis in schools etc.). That is also what >happened in the film Bandit Queen, where minorities oppressed majorities. > >> Why did the movie show the two lesbian women as Sita and Parvati ? It's >> not as though Sita and Parvati are common Indian names. Indeed they are >> not. Why not two muslim women engaged in homosexuality? > >What is your opinion about Konarak and Khajuraho ? There you will see many >ancient versions of the film depicted in stone, carved by ancient Hindus. >Should these be pulled down like the mosque of Babar the Tiger >(`Shadow of God') ? But of course you don't want anything done to them, >since they were built by Hindus. > >> Or how about having a movie where the Virgin Mary is having animal sex >> with her father 9 months before the birth of Jesus Christ? > >Again, these are shown on various `Hindu' temples of India. Except that >there is no Mary, but various `Hindu' gods and goddesses. Illustrated >Gitagovindas show the bedroom intimacies of Krishna and various gopis, as >do several temples. Beastiality is depicted in various sculptures on many >Hindu temples, and the Tantras encourage such acts. What do you say about >these ? > > Since you support a ban on the film (mainly because some Muslims were >involved), but do not support a ban on these sculptures (perhaps since >they were made by Hindus ?), I conclude that you are guilty of certain >inconsistencies. Maybe these are merely due to a Hindu fundamentalist >bias. As long as some Brahmins paint and sculpt nude Hindu gods and >goddesses, it's OK, but if Muslims do the same, then they should all be >killed ? > > If you go around vilifying the film, then, if you are consistent and your >reason not fully clouded with mindless fanaticism, then you should also go >around vilifying the `Hindu' sculptures at Konarak and Khajuraho, the >`Hindu' scripture of Kamasutra, the `Hindu' Tantras etc. Most importantly, >you have to prove to the likes of Mira Nair et al. that ancient India was >a prudish society (as you assume), and not based on Kamasutra. Till the >likes of you cannot prove to open-minded people that this was so, people >will continue making films that, in their view, depicts ancient Indian >society as it actually was. I invite >you to do so on this list. If you can: > >1. Prove that ancient India was Victorian in nature and >2. Condemn the `Hindu' temples that contain those sculptures, > >I shall withdraw my accusations against you. But as of now, your views >smack of Hindu fundamentalism. > >> It is a well known fact here that Fire was a movie >> dominated by muslims (like Shabana Azmi). Why did they not choose >> characters of their own religion? > >Because no such sculptures adorn Muslim mosques; nor do they adorn >Christian churches. > >> Freedom of speech! It's time we had a Statue of Responsibility to >> balance out the Statue of Liberty. And some things are beyond the >> reach of law. Hurting the feelings of millions of Hindus is not >> illegal, but it is certainly not something you want to do repeatedly. > >But the film continues to run outside Mumbai. And the sculputeres still >stand in the temples. As long as Orthodox Vaishnavites comprise only 30 % >of the population of India, and the bulk of observers think that ancient >India was akin to ancient Greece in its prudery, such films will continue >to be made. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Thu Jan 7 19:20:21 1999 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 14:20:21 -0500 Subject: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: <01BE3A75.6AB230C0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227044704.23782.12941502363975797699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree that Sheldon Pollock's article, cited below, is indispensible reading to anyone who wants to think seriously about the issues raised, but it is quite a stretch to say that he "claims that the academic standards of these scholars were impeccable." Having just reread the pertinent pages, I see what might be quoted in that direction: "They are for the most part unimpeachable with respect to scholarly 'standards'" (p. 94). But those quotation marks around "standards" are not making it into the paraphrase. To interpret them, one may turn two pages: "Whatever other enduring lessons this may teach us, it offers a superb illustration of the empirical fact that disinterested scholarship in the human sciences, like any other socal act, takes place within the realm of interests" (96). For a "closer reading" of some pertinent NS period German Indological texts, see Carlo Ginzburg, "Germanic Mythology and Nazism: Thoughts on an Old Book by Georges Dumezil," in _Clues, Myths and Historical Method_ (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Uniersity Press, 1989), pp. 126-45. Perhaps it is a question of whether anything can rise to the level of unimeachability. Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 Washington, D.C., 20052 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 2106 G St., NW Washington, D.C. 20052 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Walker Trimble wrote: > > > This might be the time to ask other Indologists and those interested in the > > history of Indology why so many thinkers who have attempted to find the > > hidden and missing links between cultures have also had fascist leanings. > > This seems to be the case from Max-Mueller (though his is rather weak) > > How on earth could Max-Mueller have fascist leanings? He died before fascism > was invented? > > > through Eliade, Dumezil, Jung, even the popular Joseph Campbell and on. > > Also, consider how many Modernest writers and poets who also espoused a > > kind of "Universal Consciousness" were fascists: T.S. Eliot, W.B. Yeats, of > > course many of the Surrealists. . . Why? > > Why did so many intellectuals espouse totalitarian ideologies at all, not > simply fascism, but also marxism-leninism, not to mention stalinism and maoism? > The question is interesting in itself, but it does not belong on Indology. > > > Since so many of the great Indolgists in the last two centuries are and > > have been Westerners, studies in the attempts to coalesce the thought of > > East and West would have some hermeneutical value for the discipline. > > I am now reading a book which explores Dumezil's possible fascism, some may > > find it interesting: > > > > Eribon, Didier. Faut-il Br^uler Dum'ezil?__Paris: Flammarion, 1992. > > > > At 06:26 AM 12/24/98 PST, you wrote: > > ><<< > > > There was never a process of > > >cleaning in the Indology in after Nazis times and therefore it is one > > >reason for the unscholarity methode which is still dominating the > > >after-Nazi German Indology. > > This is nonsense - excuse me. Are you implying that ALL German indologists > were/are Nazis????? Or that there is a marked difference in method between > German indologists and the rest of the caste? Whatever problems of method and > modernization are besetting Indology, the reason given above is hardly it. > > > > Hope some scholars take up the task of the study of how > > > Sanskrit played in the Nazi hands. Was surprised to find > > > that the grand historian of religion, Mircea Eliade had some > > > Nazi connections. > > You might probably like to read Sheldon Pollock's article on the subject of > German Indologists and Nazism. See: > > Deep Orientalism? Notes on Sanskrit and Power Beyond the Raj. In: Orientalism > and the Postcolonial Predicament. Edited by Carol A. Breckenridge and Peter van > der Veer. > University of Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia 1993. > > BTW, as you will see, he claims that the academic methods of these scholars > were impeccable, if I remember correctly. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no > From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Thu Jan 7 20:45:09 1999 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 15:45:09 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: <01BE3A81.45639960.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227044717.23782.7868054506358272993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By the way, one of the things I like most about Ginzburg's article is that it ends with the metaphor of "turning pages." Best and more :-> Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 Washington, D.C., 20052 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 2106 G St., NW Washington, D.C. 20052 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Alf Hiltebeitel wrote: > > > I agree that Sheldon Pollock's article, cited below, is indispensible > > reading to anyone who wants to think seriously about the issues raised, > > but it is quite a stretch to say that he "claims that the academic > > standards of these scholars were impeccable." Having just reread the > > pertinent pages, I see what might be quoted in that direction: "They are > > for the most part unimpeachable with respect to scholarly 'standards'" > > (p. 94). But those quotation marks around "standards" are not making it > > into the paraphrase. To interpret them, one may turn two pages: > > "Whatever other enduring lessons this may teach us, it offers a superb > > illustration of the empirical fact that disinterested scholarship in the > > human sciences, like any other socal act, takes place within the realm of > > interests" (96). For a "closer reading" of some pertinent NS period > > German Indological texts, see Carlo Ginzburg, "Germanic Mythology and > > Nazism: Thoughts on an Old Book by Georges Dumezil," in _Clues, Myths and > > Historical Method_ (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Uniersity Press, 1989), pp. > > 126-45. > > Obviously, I was a bit too quick. It's a few months since I read the article. > > > Perhaps it is a question of whether anything can rise to the level of > > unimeachability. > > Probably not, not even Clinton. What struck me, when I read Pollock's paper, > was that most of the people he mentions as members of the Nazi party (in > several cases, members even BEFORE the Nazis came to power, an important > difference), are regarded as "staple food" for students of Indology, yet their > political leanings had never been mentioned - to me, at least. If you know that > a person was an active Nazi (or has some other aberrant ideology), you read his > work with more attention than if you deal with a non-fascist indologist. When > doing my Ph.D., I had to read several works by Walther Wuest, apparently one of > the more vicious Nazis from what I have been told. Although you could see in > dications of his political ideas in the texts, they were rather subdued (at > least in the texts I read), and most of what he had to say, was put forward in > a competent manner and had to be taken seriously. We cannot reject works by > competent colleagues simply because of their political leanings, however > abominable they may be. Scholarly arguments have to be treated on their own > merit as long as they are made competently by knowledgable people. And most of > the German scholars who were members of the Nazi party, happened to be > competent. I guess it is a bit like Werner von Braun, a major of the > Schuetzstaffel and involved in acts that perhaps should have brought him to > Nuremberg. He was instead, on the pure merit of his competence, transported to > a better life in the US, his background whitewashed by the US army and, since > his arrival in the land of the free, apparently of an impeccable democratic > mindset. Possibly, some of the old Indologists of Nazi leanings changed their > ways and ideas after the war. Even intellectuals can learn, given a hard enough > blow! :-) > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no > From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jan 7 21:12:35 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 16:12:35 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: <01BE3A81.45639960.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227044720.23782.10465949141779346956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some people can belong in a political party to save their skins. Many Chinese, Russian and East European scholars in recent times have fallen into this. Without citing names, one can also see that many good scientists could be racists. However, Nazi connection is very different. One has to analyze the bias very carefully. I am attracted to read this stuff and appreciate. God(!) willing I will find time to do.. - BM On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Alf Hiltebeitel wrote: > > > I agree that Sheldon Pollock's article, cited below, is indispensible > > reading to anyone who wants to think seriously about the issues raised, > > but it is quite a stretch to say that he "claims that the academic > > standards of these scholars were impeccable." Having just reread the > > pertinent pages, I see what might be quoted in that direction: "They are > > for the most part unimpeachable with respect to scholarly 'standards'" > > (p. 94). But those quotation marks around "standards" are not making it > > into the paraphrase. To interpret them, one may turn two pages: > > "Whatever other enduring lessons this may teach us, it offers a superb > > illustration of the empirical fact that disinterested scholarship in the > > human sciences, like any other socal act, takes place within the realm of > > interests" (96). For a "closer reading" of some pertinent NS period > > German Indological texts, see Carlo Ginzburg, "Germanic Mythology and > > Nazism: Thoughts on an Old Book by Georges Dumezil," in _Clues, Myths and > > Historical Method_ (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Uniersity Press, 1989), pp. > > 126-45. > > Obviously, I was a bit too quick. It's a few months since I read the article. > > > Perhaps it is a question of whether anything can rise to the level of > > unimeachability. > > Probably not, not even Clinton. What struck me, when I read Pollock's paper, > was that most of the people he mentions as members of the Nazi party (in > several cases, members even BEFORE the Nazis came to power, an important > difference), are regarded as "staple food" for students of Indology, yet their > political leanings had never been mentioned - to me, at least. If you know that > a person was an active Nazi (or has some other aberrant ideology), you read his > work with more attention than if you deal with a non-fascist indologist. When > doing my Ph.D., I had to read several works by Walther Wuest, apparently one of > the more vicious Nazis from what I have been told. Although you could see in > dications of his political ideas in the texts, they were rather subdued (at > least in the texts I read), and most of what he had to say, was put forward in > a competent manner and had to be taken seriously. We cannot reject works by > competent colleagues simply because of their political leanings, however > abominable they may be. Scholarly arguments have to be treated on their own > merit as long as they are made competently by knowledgable people. And most of > the German scholars who were members of the Nazi party, happened to be > competent. I guess it is a bit like Werner von Braun, a major of the > Schuetzstaffel and involved in acts that perhaps should have brought him to > Nuremberg. He was instead, on the pure merit of his competence, transported to > a better life in the US, his background whitewashed by the US army and, since > his arrival in the land of the free, apparently of an impeccable democratic > mindset. Possibly, some of the old Indologists of Nazi leanings changed their > ways and ideas after the war. Even intellectuals can learn, given a hard enough > blow! :-) > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no > From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Jan 7 21:49:34 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 16:49:34 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044722.23782.1233217580706197565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An excellent commentary offering insight on what will happen when the Kashi Viswanath Temple (dedicated to Lord Siva, a Dravidian God according to you) comes up for liberation. Also, and curiously so, Thakurs (Rajputs a.k.a Hunnites according to you, described by you earlier as Thukarians) are present at the top of the hierarchy of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. The rest of the garbage need not be commented on. Ashish -----Original Message----- From: Samar Abbas [SMTP:abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET] Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:11 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Sumedh Mungee wrote about Partha Banerjee's reply: > And it will happen every time minorities like you try to subvert > the feelings of a majority. This statement arises due to the illusion that `Hindus form the majority of the population of India'. That is patently false. The official number of `Hindus' is around 80 % of the Indian Republic, which is false. Now, - Dalits and Dravidians ( together 30 % of India ) have declared themselves as followers of Animism and Shaivism (the Dravidian religion) respectively (cf Ambedkar's books). Subtracting that, it leaves only 50 % Hindu. - The above statistic classes followers of Sufi saints as `Hindu', so that the % of Indian Muslims is officially 12 %. Adding the followers of Sufi saints to the Muslim population, that percentage rises to 20 %, and that of Hindus falls to 42 %. - The bulk of Bengali Hindus are Communists, ie. Atheists. Yes, you have to face it, atheism exists in India and is widely followed. Subtracting the roughy 7 % Atheists (the % of Bengalis), the percentage of Hindus falls to 35 %. - Subtracting Tantrics (Indo-Tibetan religions), Buddhists, Jains, etc. the percentage drops still further. - Rajputs are descendants of Hunnic etc. immigrants in the 5th century AD. They are thus followers of various Solar religions (`Saura') and are also not Hindu. Nor are they `Indo-Aryans'. They are invaders from outside India. Subtracting the roughly 5 % Rajputs leaves only 30 % Hindu. In other words, the percentage of Hindus (ie. Orthodox Vaishnavites) is barely 30 % of the Indian Republic. That is not enough to form a `majority' (it is also the rough fraction of population that votes BJP). This 30 % includes all of the Indo-Aryan castes, like Brahmans (4 % of Inda's population), Kshatriyas (approx. 5 %) and Vaisyas (less than 5 %), and several Aryanized castes. This 30 %, in a democracy, can't enforce values on the 70 %. That's why the attempts to enforce singing of Vande Mataram and sacrifices to Bharat Mata on a daily basis failed. > That is what happened in the French Revolution. That > is what happened at Babri Masjid, and against Fire. > And it will happen every time minorities like you try to subvert > the feelings of a majority. And that is what happened in 1998, when the sinister attempts by a 4 % minority to enforce Sanskrit on the Indian population failed. And when the 30 % tried to enforce Orthodox Vaishnavite religion onto the remaining 70 % in 1998 ( ie. the failed attempt to enforce singing of Sarasvati hymns on a daily basis in schools etc.). That is also what happened in the film Bandit Queen, where minorities oppressed majorities. > Why did the movie show the two lesbian women as Sita and Parvati ? It's > not as though Sita and Parvati are common Indian names. Indeed they are > not. Why not two muslim women engaged in homosexuality? What is your opinion about Konarak and Khajuraho ? There you will see many ancient versions of the film depicted in stone, carved by ancient Hindus. Should these be pulled down like the mosque of Babar the Tiger (`Shadow of God') ? But of course you don't want anything done to them, since they were built by Hindus. > Or how about having a movie where the Virgin Mary is having animal sex > with her father 9 months before the birth of Jesus Christ? Again, these are shown on various `Hindu' temples of India. Except that there is no Mary, but various `Hindu' gods and goddesses. Illustrated Gitagovindas show the bedroom intimacies of Krishna and various gopis, as do several temples. Beastiality is depicted in various sculptures on many Hindu temples, and the Tantras encourage such acts. What do you say about these ? Since you support a ban on the film (mainly because some Muslims were involved), but do not support a ban on these sculptures (perhaps since they were made by Hindus ?), I conclude that you are guilty of certain inconsistencies. Maybe these are merely due to a Hindu fundamentalist bias. As long as some Brahmins paint and sculpt nude Hindu gods and goddesses, it's OK, but if Muslims do the same, then they should all be killed ? If you go around vilifying the film, then, if you are consistent and your reason not fully clouded with mindless fanaticism, then you should also go around vilifying the `Hindu' sculptures at Konarak and Khajuraho, the `Hindu' scripture of Kamasutra, the `Hindu' Tantras etc. Most importantly, you have to prove to the likes of Mira Nair et al. that ancient India was a prudish society (as you assume), and not based on Kamasutra. Till the likes of you cannot prove to open-minded people that this was so, people will continue making films that, in their view, depicts ancient Indian society as it actually was. I invite you to do so on this list. If you can: 1. Prove that ancient India was Victorian in nature and 2. Condemn the `Hindu' temples that contain those sculptures, I shall withdraw my accusations against you. But as of now, your views smack of Hindu fundamentalism. > It is a well known fact here that Fire was a movie > dominated by muslims (like Shabana Azmi). Why did they not choose > characters of their own religion? Because no such sculptures adorn Muslim mosques; nor do they adorn Christian churches. > Freedom of speech! It's time we had a Statue of Responsibility to > balance out the Statue of Liberty. And some things are beyond the > reach of law. Hurting the feelings of millions of Hindus is not > illegal, but it is certainly not something you want to do repeatedly. But the film continues to run outside Mumbai. And the sculputeres still stand in the temples. As long as Orthodox Vaishnavites comprise only 30 % of the population of India, and the bulk of observers think that ancient India was akin to ancient Greece in its prudery, such films will continue to be made. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Jan 7 22:32:25 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 17:32:25 -0500 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044730.23782.2503630531001662434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An excellent commentary offering insight into what will happen when the Kashi Viswanath Temple (dedicated to Lord Siva, a Dravidian God according to you) comes up for liberation. Also, and curiously so, Thakurs (Rajputs a.k.a Hunnites according to you, described by you earlier as Thukarians) are present at the top of the hierarchy of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. The rest of the garbage need not be commented on. Ashish -----Original Message----- From: Samar Abbas [SMTP:abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET] Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:11 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Sumedh Mungee wrote about Partha Banerjee's reply: > And it will happen every time minorities like you try to subvert > the feelings of a majority. This statement arises due to the illusion that `Hindus form the majority of the population of India'. That is patently false. The official number of `Hindus' is around 80 % of the Indian Republic, which is false. Now, - Dalits and Dravidians ( together 30 % of India ) have declared themselves as followers of Animism and Shaivism (the Dravidian religion) respectively (cf Ambedkar's books). Subtracting that, it leaves only 50 % Hindu. - The above statistic classes followers of Sufi saints as `Hindu', so that the % of Indian Muslims is officially 12 %. Adding the followers of Sufi saints to the Muslim population, that percentage rises to 20 %, and that of Hindus falls to 42 %. - The bulk of Bengali Hindus are Communists, ie. Atheists. Yes, you have to face it, atheism exists in India and is widely followed. Subtracting the roughy 7 % Atheists (the % of Bengalis), the percentage of Hindus falls to 35 %. - Subtracting Tantrics (Indo-Tibetan religions), Buddhists, Jains, etc. the percentage drops still further. - Rajputs are descendants of Hunnic etc. immigrants in the 5th century AD. They are thus followers of various Solar religions (`Saura') and are also not Hindu. Nor are they `Indo-Aryans'. They are invaders from outside India. Subtracting the roughly 5 % Rajputs leaves only 30 % Hindu. In other words, the percentage of Hindus (ie. Orthodox Vaishnavites) is barely 30 % of the Indian Republic. That is not enough to form a `majority' (it is also the rough fraction of population that votes BJP). This 30 % includes all of the Indo-Aryan castes, like Brahmans (4 % of Inda's population), Kshatriyas (approx. 5 %) and Vaisyas (less than 5 %), and several Aryanized castes. This 30 %, in a democracy, can't enforce values on the 70 %. That's why the attempts to enforce singing of Vande Mataram and sacrifices to Bharat Mata on a daily basis failed. > That is what happened in the French Revolution. That > is what happened at Babri Masjid, and against Fire. > And it will happen every time minorities like you try to subvert > the feelings of a majority. And that is what happened in 1998, when the sinister attempts by a 4 % minority to enforce Sanskrit on the Indian population failed. And when the 30 % tried to enforce Orthodox Vaishnavite religion onto the remaining 70 % in 1998 ( ie. the failed attempt to enforce singing of Sarasvati hymns on a daily basis in schools etc.). That is also what happened in the film Bandit Queen, where minorities oppressed majorities. > Why did the movie show the two lesbian women as Sita and Parvati ? It's > not as though Sita and Parvati are common Indian names. Indeed they are > not. Why not two muslim women engaged in homosexuality? What is your opinion about Konarak and Khajuraho ? There you will see many ancient versions of the film depicted in stone, carved by ancient Hindus. Should these be pulled down like the mosque of Babar the Tiger (`Shadow of God') ? But of course you don't want anything done to them, since they were built by Hindus. > Or how about having a movie where the Virgin Mary is having animal sex > with her father 9 months before the birth of Jesus Christ? Again, these are shown on various `Hindu' temples of India. Except that there is no Mary, but various `Hindu' gods and goddesses. Illustrated Gitagovindas show the bedroom intimacies of Krishna and various gopis, as do several temples. Beastiality is depicted in various sculptures on many Hindu temples, and the Tantras encourage such acts. What do you say about these ? Since you support a ban on the film (mainly because some Muslims were involved), but do not support a ban on these sculptures (perhaps since they were made by Hindus ?), I conclude that you are guilty of certain inconsistencies. Maybe these are merely due to a Hindu fundamentalist bias. As long as some Brahmins paint and sculpt nude Hindu gods and goddesses, it's OK, but if Muslims do the same, then they should all be killed ? If you go around vilifying the film, then, if you are consistent and your reason not fully clouded with mindless fanaticism, then you should also go around vilifying the `Hindu' sculptures at Konarak and Khajuraho, the `Hindu' scripture of Kamasutra, the `Hindu' Tantras etc. Most importantly, you have to prove to the likes of Mira Nair et al. that ancient India was a prudish society (as you assume), and not based on Kamasutra. Till the likes of you cannot prove to open-minded people that this was so, people will continue making films that, in their view, depicts ancient Indian society as it actually was. I invite you to do so on this list. If you can: 1. Prove that ancient India was Victorian in nature and 2. Condemn the `Hindu' temples that contain those sculptures, I shall withdraw my accusations against you. But as of now, your views smack of Hindu fundamentalism. > It is a well known fact here that Fire was a movie > dominated by muslims (like Shabana Azmi). Why did they not choose > characters of their own religion? Because no such sculptures adorn Muslim mosques; nor do they adorn Christian churches. > Freedom of speech! It's time we had a Statue of Responsibility to > balance out the Statue of Liberty. And some things are beyond the > reach of law. Hurting the feelings of millions of Hindus is not > illegal, but it is certainly not something you want to do repeatedly. But the film continues to run outside Mumbai. And the sculputeres still stand in the temples. As long as Orthodox Vaishnavites comprise only 30 % of the population of India, and the bulk of observers think that ancient India was akin to ancient Greece in its prudery, such films will continue to be made. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Jan 7 17:25:21 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 18:25:21 +0100 Subject: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044702.23782.191808665071265486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Walker Trimble wrote: > This might be the time to ask other Indologists and those interested in the > history of Indology why so many thinkers who have attempted to find the > hidden and missing links between cultures have also had fascist leanings. > This seems to be the case from Max-Mueller (though his is rather weak) How on earth could Max-Mueller have fascist leanings? He died before fascism was invented? > through Eliade, Dumezil, Jung, even the popular Joseph Campbell and on. > Also, consider how many Modernest writers and poets who also espoused a > kind of "Universal Consciousness" were fascists: T.S. Eliot, W.B. Yeats, of > course many of the Surrealists. . . Why? Why did so many intellectuals espouse totalitarian ideologies at all, not simply fascism, but also marxism-leninism, not to mention stalinism and maoism? The question is interesting in itself, but it does not belong on Indology. > Since so many of the great Indolgists in the last two centuries are and > have been Westerners, studies in the attempts to coalesce the thought of > East and West would have some hermeneutical value for the discipline. > I am now reading a book which explores Dumezil's possible fascism, some may > find it interesting: > > Eribon, Didier. Faut-il Br^uler Dum'ezil?__Paris: Flammarion, 1992. > > At 06:26 AM 12/24/98 PST, you wrote: > ><<< > > There was never a process of > >cleaning in the Indology in after Nazis times and therefore it is one > >reason for the unscholarity methode which is still dominating the > >after-Nazi German Indology. This is nonsense - excuse me. Are you implying that ALL German indologists were/are Nazis????? Or that there is a marked difference in method between German indologists and the rest of the caste? Whatever problems of method and modernization are besetting Indology, the reason given above is hardly it. > > Hope some scholars take up the task of the study of how > > Sanskrit played in the Nazi hands. Was surprised to find > > that the grand historian of religion, Mircea Eliade had some > > Nazi connections. You might probably like to read Sheldon Pollock's article on the subject of German Indologists and Nazism. See: Deep Orientalism? Notes on Sanskrit and Power Beyond the Raj. In: Orientalism and the Postcolonial Predicament. Edited by Carol A. Breckenridge and Peter van der Veer. University of Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia 1993. BTW, as you will see, he claims that the academic methods of these scholars were impeccable, if I remember correctly. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Thu Jan 7 16:38:18 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 18:38:18 +0200 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044661.23782.11084512165389012517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Samar you made your point, but then again what's hindu?sm? SA> This 30 %, in a democracy, can't enforce values on the 70 %. That's why SA> the attempts to enforce singing of Vande Mataram and sacrifices to Bharat SA> Mata on a daily basis failed. SA> But the film continues to run outside Mumbai. And the sculputeres still SA> stand in the temples. As long as Orthodox Vaishnavites comprise only 30 % SA> of the population of India, and the bulk of observers think that ancient SA> India was akin to ancient Greece in its prudery, such films will continue SA> to be made. I think you're mistaken here, I cannot tell from experience, but being familiar with Plato's Symposion and remembering stories about cynics and knowing many a antique Greece myth, the qualification of prudery doesn't seem to me to be fitted for Greece in the mentioned period. Michel Foucault in his 'History of Sexualitiy' rejects this view as well. It seems to me that pudery is inevitably linked up with semitic religions. Those Arabs and Jews seem to have sexual problems. Christianity introduced prudery into Europe and Greece and the moslims did the same in India and other countries in the Far East. Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Jan 8 00:01:41 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 19:01:41 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227044725.23782.1681891685299051518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/7/99 11:37:55 AM Central Standard Time, emstern at NNI.COM writes: > The term pAtaJjalam, when it refers to a branch of learning in Sanskrit > literature, generally refers to the pAtaJjalaM yogaSAstram, rather than the > pAtaJjalaM mahAbhASyam. As South Indian Inscriptions Volume 14 is not > available to me at home, it is not clear to me if the interpretation of > pAtaJjalam as the mahAbhASyam is A.S. Ramanatha Ayyar's, or S. > Palaniappan's. What is the justification for the interpretation pAtaJjalam > = pAtaJjalaM mahAbhASyam for this inscription? What I gave was a direct quote of what A. S. Ramanatha Ayyar wrote on page iii of SII vol. 14. While some of Ayyar's paraphrasing regarding other texts may be imprecise, I fully agree with him on the identification of pAtaJjalam with maHAbhASya. This will become clear when we look at the actual Tamil text of the inscription (p.56). The inscription begins by describing tamizavEL as "taNTamiZOT(u)Ariya nUL valla tamizavEL", i.e., tamizavEL who is an expert in cool tamil and Aryan texts. Then the relevant portion of the text reads, "maRai poruTTarican2a mARun tamizkaL mUn2Rum varicaiyilamainta vaTanUl vakaiyu nIti nUlaiyu mEtaku purANamum pAtaJcala mutaR pan2uvaR payan2kaLum meymaiyuNarn..." maRai = Vedic texts poruL = meaning, contents tarican2am = darzana ARu = six tamiz = Tamil mUn2Ru = three varicai - order, series amainta = established vaTanUl = northern text (Sanskrit/Pali/Prakrit) vakai = type nItinUl = dharma zAstra mEtaku = esteemed purANam = purANa pataJcalam = pAtaJjalam mutal - beginning pan2uval = text payan2 = meaning, interpretation meymai = truth uNar = realize, understand Thus tamizavEL is described as well-versed in the six darzanas which should include the yoga system of pataJjali. (According to Monier Williams, the six darzanas include [pUrva-] mImAnsASA by Jaim.; uttara-mImAnsA by bAdar.; nyAya by gotama; vaizESika by kaNada; sAMkya by kap.; yoga by pat.) In that case, why would pataJjali's yoga system be mentioned again. On the other hand, no other grammatical text is mentioned other than pAtaJcalam. Further the use of the term "pan2uval" is reminiscent of its use in the preface to tolkAppiyam where it occurs as "pulam tokuttOn2E pOkkaRu pan2uval". So, what the inscription refers to must be mahAbhASya. What is interesting is that the person mentioned in the inscription was well-versed in not just one text, mahAbhASya, but many texts beginning with mahAbhASya. There are, of course, other inscriptions mentioning the teaching of aSTAdhyAyI/ pANinIya in Tamilnadu. See "The Development of Education During the Coola Period" by Mrs. Loganayagy Sivasubramaniam, pp. 7d1-11, Proceedings of the Fifth International Conference-Seminar of Tamil Studies, Madurai, Tamil Nadu, India, January 1981. Regards S. Palaniappan From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Jan 7 20:03:06 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 21:03:06 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044712.23782.1266152625956955246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Alf Hiltebeitel wrote: > I agree that Sheldon Pollock's article, cited below, is indispensible > reading to anyone who wants to think seriously about the issues raised, > but it is quite a stretch to say that he "claims that the academic > standards of these scholars were impeccable." Having just reread the > pertinent pages, I see what might be quoted in that direction: "They are > for the most part unimpeachable with respect to scholarly 'standards'" > (p. 94). But those quotation marks around "standards" are not making it > into the paraphrase. To interpret them, one may turn two pages: > "Whatever other enduring lessons this may teach us, it offers a superb > illustration of the empirical fact that disinterested scholarship in the > human sciences, like any other socal act, takes place within the realm of > interests" (96). For a "closer reading" of some pertinent NS period > German Indological texts, see Carlo Ginzburg, "Germanic Mythology and > Nazism: Thoughts on an Old Book by Georges Dumezil," in _Clues, Myths and > Historical Method_ (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Uniersity Press, 1989), pp. > 126-45. Obviously, I was a bit too quick. It's a few months since I read the article. > Perhaps it is a question of whether anything can rise to the level of > unimeachability. Probably not, not even Clinton. What struck me, when I read Pollock's paper, was that most of the people he mentions as members of the Nazi party (in several cases, members even BEFORE the Nazis came to power, an important difference), are regarded as "staple food" for students of Indology, yet their political leanings had never been mentioned - to me, at least. If you know that a person was an active Nazi (or has some other aberrant ideology), you read his work with more attention than if you deal with a non-fascist indologist. When doing my Ph.D., I had to read several works by Walther Wuest, apparently one of the more vicious Nazis from what I have been told. Although you could see in dications of his political ideas in the texts, they were rather subdued (at least in the texts I read), and most of what he had to say, was put forward in a competent manner and had to be taken seriously. We cannot reject works by competent colleagues simply because of their political leanings, however abominable they may be. Scholarly arguments have to be treated on their own merit as long as they are made competently by knowledgable people. And most of the German scholars who were members of the Nazi party, happened to be competent. I guess it is a bit like Werner von Braun, a major of the Schuetzstaffel and involved in acts that perhaps should have brought him to Nuremberg. He was instead, on the pure merit of his competence, transported to a better life in the US, his background whitewashed by the US army and, since his arrival in the land of the free, apparently of an impeccable democratic mindset. Possibly, some of the old Indologists of Nazi leanings changed their ways and ideas after the war. Even intellectuals can learn, given a hard enough blow! :-) Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Jan 7 16:53:28 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 99 21:53:28 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc.-3 In-Reply-To: <48dcb78a.3693c3e0@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227044690.23782.14907337833943710195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:13 PM 1/6/99 EST, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappa wrote: >Thus, except one, all the various factors associated with vAkyapadIya 2.486 >discussion such as dAkSiNAtya, parvata, ascetic on a mountain, rAvaNa, brahma- >rakshas, trikUta, etc., can be explained by just one location - potiyil >mountain - from where candrAcArya obtained the knowledge of Paninian >scholarship. (No other location has explanation for so many factors.) However, >the mentioning of tiliGga by the TIka is a problem. > > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > > There have been a number of postings over period of time on this issue. It will be very useful if a summary of what is being asserted and on what basis is compiled and presented to the list members. This will allow the list members to judge the weight and relevence of the evidence presented and whether it substatiates the claim. regards, sarma. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 8 13:25:28 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 05:25:28 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044742.23782.4426142715991436666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< There are `2 Sivas'. One Dravidian, one Tibetic. The North Indian Shiva and Kashmir Shaivism is obviously of Tibetic origin (cf. his white skin), while the South Indian Siva is obviously of Dravidian origin. Indeed, Tantrism is evidently of Tibetic rrigin. >>> There is only one 'Siva. 'Siva in Tamil texts is NOT black either. He is of golden color (pon2n2Ar mEn2iyan2E! - Tevaram); His hair is red (ceJcaTai appan2 in Tiruppan2antAL temple; aruNajaTezvarasvAmi) Only his throat is dark/deep blue. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 8 16:23:59 1999 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 10:23:59 -0600 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: <01BE3A81.45639960.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227044744.23782.3910781633442162732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Scholarly arguments have to be treated on their own >merit as long as they are made competently by knowledgable people. > I agree with you. Also in a previous message you mentioned that all German scholars should not be painted with a Nazi brush. I completely agree to that as well. At the same time, is it too much to ask that the same consideration be extended to Indian scholars who do not agree to the AI/M theory ? As has been apparent till now - labelling is the easiest thing to do, and attributing motives can go in all directions. But it is the person who gets labelled who has a price to pay, especially when responsible people go around hurling accusations. I am sure many in the US still remember Senator McCarthy. While the easy thing to do is to label someone - it is much more scholarly to question the concepts underlying totalitarian ideologies. The concepts of some militarily superior indo-europeans strutting around on horses chanting some retroflexion free Rgveda in their pristine homeland or an equally imaginary dravidian utopia have to be questioned. Obviously this is an exaggeration, but 19th century ideas of pure languages, races or cultures have to be given up. The SIVC extended from Gujarat to Afghanistan and Jammu to Baluchistan is it not possible that for such a large area there were many kinds of people and languages ? Anyway, enough bytes have been thrown around... I have heard that archeologists have found new evidence of some kind of writing in the SIVC - Is it true? and are there any references available ? Thanks in advance. Subrahmanya. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 8 19:39:52 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 11:39:52 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044749.23782.7177778832581277815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< The SIVC extended from Gujarat to Afghanistan and Jammu to Baluchistan is it not possible that for such a large area there were many kinds of people and languages ? >>> The problem is there are vast differences between the Worlds of IVC and Vedic texts. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Fri Jan 8 18:14:32 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 13:14:32 -0500 Subject: 'sari' (Attn: H M Hubey) In-Reply-To: <3694FA45.FDF53731@montclair.edu> Message-ID: <161227044733.23782.9586174596080403326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, H.M.Hubey wrote: > I was wondering if this word is relatively new, say dating > from the early Mogul period or something. Or else it is a remarkable > coincidence. Sari means "yellow", and the word > "sar" also is a verb meaning "to > wrap". I agree with you that the sari originated during the Delhi Empire or Great Moghul Sultanate. During the pre-Delhi period, both men and women wore dhotis, the female dhoti covering the upper part of the body as well. Later, various names were applied to this garment, but it was never called `sari' in the pre-Delhi epoch. Due to the influence of smrti-writers (Manu et al) the entire body had to be covered, and this garment appeared like a wrap around the body. The Abbe Dubois states that the bodice, so much a part of the modern sari, was introduced by the `Mohammedans'. In general, one can apply the word `sari' both to: - The full-body wrapping worn in rural areas where Manu's laws are still followed, the `Aryan sari' and - The Hindustani sari, with the bodice and the midriff exposed. But technically, sari should only be applied to the latter dress. The former should be referred to by its Sanskrit names. One can derive the Hindi sari from the ancient pre-Islamic dress or from the dress of Arab-Islamic belly-dancers. The latter is more likely. Samar From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Fri Jan 8 18:45:41 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 13:45:41 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044735.23782.17558995714895169905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Christianity introduced prudery into > Europe and Greece and the moslims did the same in India and other countries > in the Far East. Things are not as simple as I had perhaps implied in my first post on this topic. There are 2 viewpoints on this: 1. Neo-Tantrik view: " Islam and Christianity introduced primitive notions of prudery into India, which during its Hindu age, was free from any such restrictions, as is eveident from the various sculptures on temples." This is opposed by: 2. The Sang Theory ( followed by the Sangh Parivar ) " Islam introduced corruption and perversion into pure ancient Vaishnava society. That ancient Orthodox Vaishnavite society had very high moral standards is evident from the practice of Sati and Jauhar, and from a reading of the Manu smrti. The perversion of lesbianism was introduced into India by the Moslems, who with their huge harems led to the advent of this (ie. sapphism) and other aberrations practiced by Moslems (eg. polygamy, paedicatio etc.) that were unknown in ancient India. Regarding the sculptures, they are found in Dravidian Shaivite temples, or Tantric temples which were akin to European witchcraft cults, minor and unimportant introduced by Tibetans into East India. The European Christians, encouraging female freedom, then introduced further debaucheries that corrupted the Indians. " So, here we have two diametrically opposed viewpoints, with apparantly equal strngth. What was India like in the old days ? Were the Muslims those who introduced prudery, or did they introduce debauchery ? And what about the Christians ? Q What is Sanskrit for `Lesbian' ? > I think you're mistaken here, I cannot tell from experience, but being > familiar with Plato's Symposion and remembering stories about cynics and > knowing many a antique Greece myth, the qualification of prudery doesn't > seem to me to be fitted for Greece in the mentioned period. This was meant in an ironic tone, "As long as people [ like Mira Nair, Deepa Mehta ] think that ancient India was akin to Greece in prudery [ ie. that it was absent in both cases ], people will continue to make films like Fire. I agree with you, but I should have made by point more clearly. > > you made your point, but then again what's hindu?sm? > The Arabs used `Hindwi' to denote any Indian, and never used it in the sense of a religion. The Persians used Hindustan to apply to North India only, while Arab Hind is all of India. The Portuguese used `Gentoo' to apply to all non-Muslim Indians, and was a synonym for pagan. The first English traders had no idea about Indian religions, and confaounded all non-Muslims under one word. Initially that word was Gentoo, adopted frm Portugeuse, later they (on account of their greater Mideaster connections) adopted the Arab Hindwi distorting it into Hindooi or Hindoo, and applied it indiscriminately to all `Indian Pagans'. When the Indologists arrived, they could not get rid of the by then deep-rooted term. Thus, cannibal Tantric Shaktas, cockroach-eating Chuhras and vegetarian Brahmins, puritan Vaishnavites who dare not think of `immoral conduct' and linga-worshipping Dravidians are all confounded under this appelation. This suited the missionaries, since they could discredit all Hindus as `cannibal heathens' and thereby undermine the fact that Brahmins had arguably `higher morals' than the Christians. Even now, the Christians refuse to recognize the Hindu claim that they are followers of different religions, but insist on using the word Hindu. The people who suffered most from this were the `Hindus' themselves. Thus, the creators of Hinduism are the British colonialists. From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Fri Jan 8 19:02:37 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 14:02:37 -0500 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: <01BE3A63.B201FA80.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227044737.23782.17060985280976090954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Ashish Chandra wrote: > Lord Siva, a Dravidian God according > to you There are `2 Sivas'. One Dravidian, one Tibetic. The North Indian Shiva and Kashmir Shaivism is obviously of Tibetic origin (cf. his white skin), while the South Indian Siva is obviously of Dravidian origin. Indeed, Tantrism is evidently of Tibetic rrigin. > An excellent commentary offering insight into what will happen when the > Kashi Viswanath Temple (dedicated to Lord Siva, a Dravidian God according > to you) comes up for liberation. I have a hunch that they will not attempt to `liberate' this Siva temple. The Sangh Parivar is dominated by Orthodox Vaishnavites. They have, I feel used this to gain Shaivite (Dravidian and Kashmir/Tibetic) and Smarta pantheist support. The Smartas are dominant in Kerala only (the home of Shankaracharya) which is now not a BJP bastion anyway. The Kashmir Shaivite and Tantro-Tibetan votebank is negligible and they have not got the support of the Dravidian Shaivites. The Smartas are also negligible. Instead, they will `liberate' (or attempt to) Krishnajanmabhoomi, Orthodox Vaishnavites that they are. Keep an eye on things. My prediction. > Also, and curiously so, Thakurs (Rajputs > a.k.a Hunnites according to you, described by you earlier as Thukarians) > are present at the top of the hierarchy of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. > The rest of the garbage need not be commented on. The Rajputs comprise different races, incl. Tokharians (ie. Thakurs), Hunns (ie. Hoons), Avars (ie. Abhiras) etc. etc. As long as the RSS supports their Solar Rellgions, they will support RSS. One must realize that Vishnu was also later on associated with the Sun to incorporate these Solar cults, and a certain degree of incorporation has gone on. But this is superficial, one only has to see the lack of guilt with which Rajputs slaughtered Brahmins during the Delhi Era, and the support the former gave to the Islamic Empire against the latter (since both Muslims and Rajputs were `foreigners'. But Kshatriyas (not to be confused with Rajputs) revere Brahmins, and elsewhere collaborated against the Islamic invader. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 8 22:06:09 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 14:06:09 -0800 Subject: A clarification (D. Sinor) Message-ID: <161227044754.23782.8201672870249569998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sn. Subrahmanya wrote earlier: >>>But, let me give the next best thing -- a quote >>>"....But, the most powerful reason which has kept this >>> theory [i.e IE homeland] alive is that the vast majority >>>of the scholars interested in the subject were Europeans, >>>and the idea that their ancestors could have come from >>>another region simply did not occur to them....... >>>Perhaps the time has come to wrench 'Indo European' >>>prehistory out of the century old scholarly ruts......" >>>Pretty strong indictment, eh ? >>>Guess...who wrote it ? In a later message, Sn. Subrahmanya solved the query he posed: <<<< New archeological and linguistic data are now available which have to be taken into consideration. The views of Indian scholars are as important as anyone else. So, an open mind is needed to look at all possibilities. The only people who will lose something are those academics who have projected themselves as scholars on India and have dissertations,papers and books that wont be worth anything. That is a great personal loss - and a great reason to keep the status quo going. ` Anyway, the quote that I gave in the previus message was Denis Sinor's. >>>> Lars Fosse wrote a reply: <<<< > But, let me give the next best thing -- a quote > > "....But, the most powerful reason which has kept this > theory [i.e IE homeland] alive is that the vast majority > of the scholars interested in the subject were Europeans, > and the idea that their ancestors could have come from > another region simply did not occur to them....... > Perhaps the time has come to wrench 'Indo European' > prehistory out of the century old scholarly ruts......" LMF: Unfortunately, the quote (whoever said it) contains an error: To begin LMF: with, Europeans thought that the Indo-Europeans came from somewhere LMF: in Asia. A party was in favour of the Hindu Kush. Others claimed LMF: the point of origin would be somewhere in Asia north of the Himalayas. LMF: It is only in the second half of this century that Asia is "out" LMF: and Eurasia "in". > Pretty strong indictment, eh ? > Guess...who wrote it ? LMF: However strong the indictment, it is not born out by the facts. LMF: So, whoever wrote it did not have a good day :-) >>>> Did some checking from old boxes. Denis Sinor is NOT an Indo-Europeanist. In fact, I have not seen a single citation by Denis Sinor on IE linguistics. Because he is not an Indo-Europeanist, it is only natural that he makes mistakes. Sinor has a lifelong interest in seeing how the West learned about the East from medieval times. I have: 1) D. Sinor, Western information on the Kitans and some related questions. JAOS, 1995 2) D. Sinor, Foreigner-Barbarian-Monster in Th. Bowie, East-West in art, Indiana UP, 1966. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Jan 8 09:43:34 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 14:43:34 +0500 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044740.23782.2120786622416361613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:11 04.01.99 -0500, Walker Trimble wrote: >hidden and missing links between cultures have also had fascist leanings. >This seems to be the case from Max-Mueller (though his is rather weak) >through Eliade, Dumezil, Jung, even the popular Joseph Campbell and on. Jung and Campbell? Jung is precisely the psychologist who documented, in a short series of articles based on his findings with German patients, the rise of a collective psychological disturbance north of the border, which he identified as fundamentally unbalanced and unhealthy (this manifested itself in dreams in which the 'blond Bestie' figured). He compared this development to the increasing prominence of an archetypical type of which the Nordic god Wodan was an illustration, and he was not at all pleased with all this. >Also, consider how many Modernest writers and poets who also espoused a >kind of "Universal Consciousness" were fascists: T.S. Eliot, W.B. Yeats, of >course many of the Surrealists. . . Why? Jung explains why. (Sorry, since I do not have my Jungs with me, I cannot give anything like a precise reference. I do recall that the '(anti-)Nazi' articles were translated into English too in a separate, slim volume with a vague title like 'Thoughts on Tendencies in Our Time' or something, and one of them was titled (something like) 'The Return of Wodan'.) >Eribon, Didier. Faut-il Br^uler Dum'ezil?__Paris: Flammarion, 1992. Je pense que non. RZ Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From smittal at RELIGION.UFL.EDU Fri Jan 8 22:03:13 1999 From: smittal at RELIGION.UFL.EDU (Sushil Mittal) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 17:03:13 -0500 Subject: Q. re: varna/caste Message-ID: <161227044751.23782.12692028044888221094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We are seeking a scholar to write a chapter on _varna_ (caste), based on knowledge of classical Hindu texts for our forthcoming book the _Hindu World_ (Routeldge). Regards, Sushil and Gene The Hindu World Edited by Sushil Mittal and Gene R. Thursby Table of Contents Introduction Sushil Mittal and Gene R. Thursby Hinduism: A Banyan Model Julius J. Lipner PART ONE: CONNECTING Bhasa Madhav Deshpande Kala Alf Hiltebeitel Rupa Paul Muller-Ortega PART TWO: TRADITIONS Veda Laurie Patton Purana Velcheru Narayana Rao Sramana Johannes Bronkhorst Darsana John Grimes Ramayana Robert P. Goldman Sally J. Sutherland-Goldman Mahabharata James L. Fitzgerald Vaisnava Francis X. Clooney Tony K. Stewart Saiva Gavin Flood Sakta Kathleen Erndl Smarta Gudrun Buhnemann Bhakti David Lorenzen Grama Susan S. Wadley PART THREE: VALUES Karma Herman Tull Varna Asrama Walter O. Kaelber Dharma Barbara Holdrege Artha Hartmut Scharfe Kama Dermot Killingley Moksa Klaus K. Klostermaier PART FOUR: NETWORKS Prana Shrinivas Tilak Anna Ravindra S. Khare Samskara Mary McGee Mandir Vasudha Narayanan Tirtha Surinder M. Bhardwaj Conclusion Sushil Mittal and Gene R. Thursby Chronology Sushil Mittal and Gene R. Thursby Glossary Sushil Mittal and Gene R. Thursby Notes Bibliography Index Sushil Mittal, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Religion 125 Dauer Hall, P.O. Box 117410 Gainesville, Florida 32611-7410 Telephone: (352) 392-1625 Telefax: (352) 392-7395 Email: smittal at religion.ufl.edu IJHS Homepage: http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ From n.rao at RZ.UNI-SB.DE Fri Jan 8 17:55:06 1999 From: n.rao at RZ.UNI-SB.DE (Narahari Rao) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 18:55:06 +0100 Subject: 'sari' (Attn: H M Hubey) Message-ID: <161227044747.23782.15867148024372372590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 13:14 08.01.1999 -0500, you wrote: >... Due to the influence of smrti-writers (Manu >et al) ... >- The full-body wrapping worn in rural areas where Manu's laws are still >followed, ... What is the nature of evidence for this kind of assertions? Is it a conjecture or are there some kind of empirical work done on these sorts of questions? How could one investigate whether Manu's rules are followed in a milieu where people haven't heard of such texts? There may be some way of showing that Smriti texts are followed in a milieu where they are not known. But I am curious about the method. From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sat Jan 9 00:08:46 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 19:08:46 -0500 Subject: Q. re: varna/caste In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990108170313.007bbd60@religion.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <161227044757.23782.18440158822343905778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >We are seeking a scholar to write a chapter on _varna_ (caste), based on >knowledge of classical Hindu texts for our forthcoming book the _Hindu >World_ (Routeldge). > >Regards, >Sushil and Gene _____________________ I hope when someone writes a chapter on the caste system in Hinduism, he or she writes about the historical exploitation aspect of it, i.e., how varna custom with its extreme rigidity has oppressed the so-called lower castes and untouchables in South Asia, and consequently, how many millions of Hindus have left their religion to find refuge in other systems that are relatively free of this social menace. I want to quote Swami Vivekananda here: "The Mohammedan conquest of India came as a salvation to the downtrodden, to the poor. That is why one-fifth of our people have become Mohammedans. It was not the sword that did it all." (Complete Works, Vol. 3: p. 294) We can quote other social reformers such as Ambedkar and Jaya Prakash Narayan in this context. I wish _Hindu World_ well. -Partha Banerjee From emstern at NNI.COM Sat Jan 9 05:29:27 1999 From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 00:29:27 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044762.23782.2312928002784234153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Elliot Stern: > >> The term pAtaJjalam, when it refers to a branch of learning in Sanskrit >> literature, generally refers to the pAtaJjalaM yogaSAstram, rather than the >> pAtaJjalaM mahAbhASyam. As South Indian Inscriptions Volume 14 is not >> available to me at home, it is not clear to me if the interpretation of >> pAtaJjalam as the mahAbhASyam is A.S. Ramanatha Ayyar's, or S. >> Palaniappan's. What is the justification for the interpretation pAtaJjalam >> = pAtaJjalaM mahAbhASyam for this inscription? S. Palaniappan: >What I gave was a direct quote of what A. S. Ramanatha Ayyar wrote on page iii >of SII vol. 14. While some of Ayyar's paraphrasing regarding other texts may >be imprecise, I fully agree with him on the identification of pAtaJjalam with >maHAbhASya. This will become clear when we look at the actual Tamil text of >the inscription (p.56). Elliot Stern: I have perhaps been misled by the direct quotation you gave from A.S. Ramanatha Ayyar in your previous message: "A. S. Ramanatha Ayyar, editor of South Indian Inscriptions Volume 14, says 'ten2n2avan2 tamizavEL, an officer of this king, is eulogized for his scholarship in Sanskrit and Tamil in a fragmentary inscription in Tamil verse (No. 87). He is described as a minister well-versed in the vEdas, vEdAGgas, the different works in Sanskrit, Law, purANa, muttamiz (the three branches of Tamil learning, viz., iyal or literature, izai or music and nATaka) and pAtaJjalam (i.e. the original work of pataJjali).'" In this quotation, Ramanatha Ayyar mentions the ten2n2van2 tamizavEL was proficient in the vedAGgas, among other branches of learning. As these vedAGgas usually include vyAkaraNam, and proficiency in vyAkaraNam surely includes understanding of the mahAbhASyam, I almost suggested in my previous reply that knowledge of mahAbhASyam had already been implied. But I refrained from doing so, because lists like this may occasionally mention particulars that would be included under general classifications already mentioned. Mention of such particular items would tend to emphasize them. I now see from the portion of the Tamil text of the inscription that you cite, that it specifically mentions 6 darzanas, though Ramanatha Ayyar does not mention them on page iii. Does Ramanatha Ayyar his "vEdas, vEdAGgas" from maRai poruL? If so, is that a usual or unusual interpretation? If not, is "vEdAGgas" one of the imprecisions in his paraphrase? Or, if I may ask quite bluntly, does a term for "vedAGgas" occur in the Tamil text at all? I look forward to your further reply. Thanks. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA telephone: 215 747 6204 From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 9 06:35:40 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 01:35:40 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227044767.23782.15213920865408485964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/8/99 11:28:17 PM Central Standard Time, emstern at NNI.COM writes: > If not, is "vEdAGgas" one of the > imprecisions in his paraphrase? Or, if I may ask quite bluntly, does a term > for "vedAGgas" occur in the Tamil text at all? Yes. That is one of the imprecisions in his paraphrase. Indeed the term "vedAGgas" does not occur in the entire inscription, the relevant portion of which was given in my last posting. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 9 13:44:22 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 05:44:22 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044777.23782.5851543602972632359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > There is only one 'Siva. > He is of golden color (pon2n2Ar mEn2iyan2E! - Tevaram); > His hair is red (ceJcaTai appan2 in Tiruppan2antAL temple; > aruNajaTezvarasvAmi) Samar Abbas wrote: <<<< The 2 traditions of Siva worship are: 1. Kashimir Shaivism of Tibetic origin, where Siva has the attributes you describe. This is iconic, and the Tibetic Shiva has the features you describe. 2. Dravidian Shaivism which is aniconic in ite purest form (eg. the Lingayats or Virasaivites). There would thus be no iconic evidence of hair colour etc. In general the aniconic form of Siva worshipped is of the darkest material, often considerably darker than the surrounding temple material. >>>> This is not correct, I am afraid. Abhinavagupta, a major Kashmiri 'saivaite author says 'Saivaite themes come from kumarikAdvIpa (tantraloka). > 'Siva in Tamil texts is NOT black either. <<< Later Tamil texts may have some Aryan and/or Tibetan influence. One must analyze the `pure' Dravidian religion of the `Outcaste' Dravidians living in isolated jungles to find if their Siva is white. As per my knowledge, he isn't. >>> > Only his throat is dark/deep blue. <<< This indicates that this form of Shiva was an import from Tibet, since he is identical in form to the Tibetic Shiva. In short, the Later Tamil SIva you describe is probably an import from Tibet, having displaced the earlier `Black Siva'. >>>> The earliest Tamil sangam texts describe 'Siva as I have written. Veerasaivism in Karnataka which is few centuries later also describe 'Siva the same way, nor does Kashmir Shaivism. I have not heard of Tibetan 'saivaite texts. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Jan 9 12:12:42 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 07:12:42 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: <199901091142.QAA12256@mbg.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227044774.23782.12643599689382210065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > At 10:23 08.01.99 -0600, SNS wrote: > >I agree with you. Also in a previous message you mentioned > >that all German scholars should not be painted with a Nazi brush. > >I completely agree to that as well. > > > >At the same time, is it too much to ask that the same consideration > >be extended to Indian scholars who do not agree to the AI/M theory ? > > ??? > > Nazi scholars = those who committed themselves to a political ideology that > is detrimental to the advance of scientific knowledge > > Indian scholars who do not agree to AI/M = those who do *not* commit > themselves to a view that is politically motivated and is not supported by > relevant scientific material > Without taking sides, it's safe to say that the "scientific material" can be "arranged" to make a point of view look credible. Ptolemic universe looked credible for a long period of time! There are some horrendous theories on what cells are, as we speak. Truth needs opemindedness, objective interpretation and above all, new information. It's good to see that all are working towards it. From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jan 9 02:48:01 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 08:18:01 +0530 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044779.23782.47866170376118255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:06 AM 12/31/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, K. S. Arjunwadkar wrote: > >> From >> "K. S. Arjunwadkar" >> To >> List members >> >> Dec 31, 98 >> >> The concept of Mukti (liberation) as expounded in Vedanta texts cannot >> logically co-exist with conscious worldly activities of a man; since the >> former presumes total freedom from instincts and efforts towards a worldly >> object, while the latter can proceed only from a worldly, howsoever noble, >> motivation. > >I can't claim to be a learned scholar on this, but this is my take. >The coexistence with worldly activities takes place, once you >do acts for the sake of doing and for the sake of achieving. >Achievements are external perceptions of your deeds, you not >waiting on them. (beautifully said in Bhagavadgita). > >> Does Shankaracharya himself, with his persistent and admirable >> intellectual and missionary work as vindicated by the record of his vast >> literary and organisational achievements, fit in this concept as most of >> his admirers and traditional biographers believe he does? In other words, >> was he a liberated soul? >> >He himself defines the stages of liberation in vivekacuDamaNi. >The aspiration of liberation is the last stage of a yogi's life. >All activities indeed cease at that time. > >> If we choose to set apart his biographical details replete with miracles >> and rely only on evidence from his scholarly works, we come across remarks >> against his opponents which are in no way different from those of a total >> worldly man. Thus, at times, he dubs his opponent who solely relies on >> logic/reason as a bull without a tail and horns, ridicules him as speaking >> with an unrestrained mouth, and so on. While concluding his criticism of >> the philosophical doctrines of the Buddha, he remarks that the Buddha was >> either insane or one who hated the mankind to the extent of taking pleasure >> in misguiding it. I can, if required, quote from his works to support my >> statements. > >>From his own definition, these are the sraddha stages and are >induced by one's teacher. These lead to samadhana when the >arguments lose meaning and finally the mumuksuta, when one >realizes one's "true nature" (not easy!) > >> >> Shankaracharya was undoubtedly an intellectual giant and an able social >> organiser whose influence on Indian people is as much alive today as it was >> centuries ago. Personally, too, I owe him a great debt inasmuch as a >> sustained study of his works moulded my thinking habit through several >> decades. The issue I have raised should be taken as purely academic which, >> strangely enough, has its roots in his effective teaching in the art of >> logical thinking. >> >> I shall be thankful to learned list members for a feedback. > >A simple minded feedback.. > >How does one categorize SriKrishna if he lived or >Buddha, Jesus Christ or Mahammed as part of history? > >Something to think in new year.. > >- BM > Jan 9, 99 My approach is based not on popular belief but on the logic of the concept. I can repeat what I wrote about RAmakRSna and RamaNa even in the cases of personalities like the Buddha and others. KSA From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sat Jan 9 03:20:48 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 08:20:48 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990107193613.9270.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044759.23782.13336550765950374641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:36 AM 1/7/99 PST, N.Ganesan wrote: >Reading Prof. Aklujkar, Interpreting VP 2.486 historically >(Part 3), UMich, 1991 > >parvatAd Agamam labdhvA ... > >Because the Mountain is referred by a very general term >'parvata' in the South, could it be the well known >Malaya mountain occuring in many Sanskrit texts? Most improbable. The author of vAkyapadIya, bhartRhari, is supposed to belong to the second half of fifth century and first quarter of sixth century A.D. The older purANAs were already in existence for several centuries and they contain references to Malaya as one of the kulaparvatAs. For example mahEndrO malayaH sahyaH zuktimAnRkshaparvataH | vindhyazca pAriyAtrazca saptAtra kulaparvatAH || vishNu purANa (2.3.3) Therefore the word Malaya as kulaparvata must have been well known to bhartRhari. If he wanted to say that the vyAkaraNAgama was obtained from Malaya mountain he had only to say "malayAdAgamaM labdhvA" instead of "parvatAdAgamaM labdhvA". It is as easy as that. The fact that he did not say so indicates clearly that mount MalayA was not meant here. Books are written by authors to convey information to the readers. This is done best by using suprasiddha (wellknown) words rather than aprasiddha (illknown) words. This is true for all books except material of cryptographic nature and material for entertainment like puzzles. Malaya is a well known word and it conveys the meaning readily. The word "parvata" to mean Malaya mountain is worse than aprasiddha. For a North Indian reader who does not know dravidian it does not convey the meaning of Malaya mountain at all. It tells him that vyAkaraNAgamA was obtained from some mountain. For a reader who knows dravidian also, it does not immediately mean Malaya mountain. First of all he must relate "parvata" to common noun "malai" and then to the proper noun Malaya. And we have to conclude that bhartRhari wanted to keep North Indian readers in the dark about the place from which the vyAkaraNAgamA was obtained and the South Indian readers to know about the location only after solving a small puzzle. I need not say that such a conclusion will be absurd. More about "parvata" later. regards, sarma. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 9 16:53:14 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 08:53:14 -0800 Subject: Aghehananda Bharathi Message-ID: <161227044789.23782.12425212684733886379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< Whatever has happened of Swami Aghehananda Bharathi,an Austrian by birth and who put down his life story in a book and who later Syracuse Univ.?The last i heared /read about him was in an article Illustrated Weekly some years back. Perhaps List subscribers would have more information on him. >>>> According to the ex. Raja of Kollengode, Palghat district who is our family friend, Aghehananda Bharati was from Britain and served in the Indian army before Independence. He later worked in USA. Bharati died a decade ago & the Raja died 2 years ago. Kollengode Samasthanam hosted Kanchi Mahaperiyaval in late 1930s. The family album has rare photos of him, A. Bharati, ... The soma subtitute (called cOmbu in Tamil) is special for Kollengode region. Tamil brahmins settled in Kerala for centuries supply them at big vedic sacrifices to Nambudiris doing the sacrifice. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Sat Jan 9 13:55:52 1999 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 08:55:52 -0500 Subject: Pongal: history of word and entity? In-Reply-To: <19990109134423.10521.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044781.23782.12574882106582079576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This question came up during a food-related discussion (on the northern khichri vs. southern Pongal). The point of contention is whether pongal and khichri are equivalent; I say not: pongal, either as word nor entity, is not the 'hodge-podge' suggested by 'khichri'. I went out on a limb to suggest that pongal, at least in the Tamil context, also occupies a different culinary/cultural niche related to its association with the harvest festival (coming up next week, and very hard to visualize when surrounded by snow). Now I come to this group to ask: is this even remotely true? what do we know about the history of the word 'pongal' (in Tamil and in other southern languages) and its association with the festival (in Tamil nadu, but not in other parts of southern India?)? Thanks for any insights! --Geeta From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 9 17:03:16 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 09:03:16 -0800 Subject: Pongal: history of word and entity? Message-ID: <161227044792.23782.2853637345218116642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< This question came up during a food-related discussion (on the northern khichri vs. southern Pongal). The point of contention is whether pongal and khichri are equivalent; I say not: pongal, either as word nor entity, is not the 'hodge-podge' suggested by 'khichri'. I went out on a limb to suggest that pongal, at least in the Tamil context, also occupies a different culinary/cultural niche related to its association with the harvest festival (coming up next week, and very hard to visualize when surrounded by snow). Now I come to this group to ask: is this even remotely true? what do we know about the history of the word 'pongal' (in Tamil and in other southern languages) and its association with the festival (in Tamil nadu, but not in other parts of southern India?)? Thanks for any insights! >>> Pongal comes from the Tamil noun "pongu" (to overflow) This is what we do while cooking Pongal outdoors. Does dOsai (Ta. tOcai) come from "tOy" (to smear/spread). tOcai < tOccalal/tOyttalal? It will be good if the etymology of Indian dishes is done in an elaborate way. (eg., upmA = uppu + mA) The following may be right or wrong, I am telling what a friend told me, yet to check Ono. Any info will be appreciated: Susumu Ono has written about a Japanese festival on the day of pongal. Just as Tamils say "pongalO pongal" when Pongal overflows from a new mud pot, Japanese say "hungaaroo hungaa". I repeat: I have not seen Susumu Ono's books yet. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 9 17:14:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 09:14:29 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227044793.23782.15113857691170458391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the info, Mr. Sarma. However, the attempt to locate parvata is not so easy or 'absurd' as one would assume. Geographical appellatives in Sanskrit texts often are shrouded under some veil. Many are persevering to locate parvata for more than a century (Weber, Kielhorn, Scharfe, Aklujkar, ...) parvata could be malaya as well. Regards, N. Ganesan <<<< At 11:36 AM 1/7/99 PST, N.Ganesan wrote: >Reading Prof. Aklujkar, Interpreting VP 2.486 historically >(Part 3), UMich, 1991 > >parvatAd Agamam labdhvA ... > >Because the Mountain is referred by a very general term >'parvata' in the South, could it be the well known >Malaya mountain occuring in many Sanskrit texts? Most improbable. The author of vAkyapadIya, bhartRhari, is supposed to belong to the second half of fifth century and first quarter of sixth century A.D. The older purANAs were already in existence for several centuries and they contain references to Malaya as one of the kulaparvatAs. For example mahEndrO malayaH sahyaH zuktimAnRkshaparvataH | vindhyazca pAriyAtrazca saptAtra kulaparvatAH || vishNu purANa (2.3.3) Therefore the word Malaya as kulaparvata must have been well known to bhartRhari. If he wanted to say that the vyAkaraNAgama was obtained from Malaya mountain he had only to say "malayAdAgamaM labdhvA" instead of "parvatAdAgamaM labdhvA". It is as easy as that. The fact that he did not say so indicates clearly that mount MalayA was not meant here. Books are written by authors to convey information to the readers. This is done best by using suprasiddha (wellknown) words rather than aprasiddha (illknown) words. This is true for all books except material of cryptographic nature and material for entertainment like puzzles. Malaya is a well known word and it conveys the meaning readily. The word "parvata" to mean Malaya mountain is worse than aprasiddha. For a North Indian reader who does not know dravidian it does not convey the meaning of Malaya mountain at all. It tells him that vyAkaraNAgamA was obtained from some mountain. For a reader who knows dravidian also, it does not immediately mean Malaya mountain. First of all he must relate "parvata" to common noun "malai" and then to the proper noun Malaya. And we have to conclude that bhartRhari wanted to keep North Indian readers in the dark about the place from which the vyAkaraNAgamA was obtained and the South Indian readers to know about the location only after solving a small puzzle. I need not say that such a conclusion will be absurd. More about "parvata" later. >>>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 9 17:35:12 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 09:35:12 -0800 Subject: Aghehananda Bharathi Message-ID: <161227044798.23782.11008828231995448248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I am afraid the swamiji you had referred to is not the one i had mentioned. I have read the auto biography -a copy was available in IIT Madras library.He was a scholar,well learned in sanscrit and scriptures beside the fluency in hindi etc. According to his storey he was ordained by amonk from the lineage of Sringeri and hence the appendage Bharathi.He was also said to be a very colourful personality.During his sojourn in Syracuse Univ. he was said to officiate in hindu functions,weddings etc.He was also said to be well versed in Tantric rituals. >>> May be I am the source of confusion. I should not have written about Kanchi Periyaval. Aghehananda Bharati whom you describe was at Kollengode also. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 9 19:42:00 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 11:42:00 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044810.23782.1224021240643193539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/8/99 10:28:07 AM Central Standard Time, sns at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: >At the same time, is it too much to ask that the same consideration >be extended to Indian scholars who do not agree to the AI/M theory ? In any field of scholarship, theory should be made to fit the facts and not the other way around. In a recent posting, it was pointed out that Subhash Kak, one of the prominent persons opposing the AIM theory, has chosen to ignore the facts which convincingly show that "Arya/Aryan" had a linguistic connotation among Indians long before any of the Indo-European specialists appeared on the scene. By ignoring the above facts, he can continue to demonize the Western scholarship as the one who created the linguistic connotation of Aryan. This kind of selective utilization of the facts to suit one's theory is downright unethical. How do you justify what Kak has done? Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 9 19:50:55 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 11:50:55 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc.-1 Message-ID: <161227044812.23782.13105235741099399072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/6/99 10:26:05 PM Central Standard Time, narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > I wonder whether Asok Aklujkar meant it. But since this is based > on translation of sanskrit passages and sanskrit does not have > articles "a", "an" and "the", I think drawing any conclusions > from it will be misleading. This does not make sense. If what you say is true, more than 200 years of Indological scholarship has been a waste of time. In other words, according to you, when the Sanskrit texts are translated into English, articles 'a', 'an', and 'the' do not carry any semantic specificity! They have been thrown about here and there for no reason! Every language has its own set of "tools" to convey the correct meaning. So it is immaterial if Sanskrit does not have a, an, the, etc. as English does. What Aklujkar has written is clear enough. If you question Aklujkar's understanding of the Sanskrit texts, please give your interpretation of the relevant texts he has referred to, and explain why your interpretation is better than his. Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sat Jan 9 18:14:32 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 12:14:32 -0600 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044803.23782.5942501012460566485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In public response to Fran Pritchett's very helpful private note to me: >Indology is not nearly as good a place for FIRE discussion as SASIALIT. Are >you familiar with this second listserv? It HAS in fact been discussing FIRE >in a lively way in recent weeks. Why not join? If you want joining info, I >can send it as soon as I get back to NYC (early next week). Yours cordially, Fran Pritchett ****************** Thanks again, Fran, for alerting me to the SAsiaLit listserv, and especially to the archives [since I barely have time to keep up with a couple other lists as it is] . It took me parts of several days to go through all 50 postings on the "Fire" thread at: http://is.rice.edu/~riddle/play/sasialit/ And I look forward to tackling the "God of Small Things" thread next, once I've finished parceling out its delectable pages in tiny midnight-snacks. Assuming that a few out there can benefit from this information about the video's availability, in the US it's distributed by New Yorker Films: http://www.newyorkerfilms.com/ They offer an 800 #, but no price is posted. It's said to be "still" relatively expensive though at amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1567301568/qid=915715999/sr=1-62/002- 1806666-6159455 Fire (1997) | List Price: $94.98 | Our Price: $80.73 | You Save: $14.25 (15%) _Why is this video so expensive? It was priced by the studio for the rental market. The price often drops to under $30 within 6 months of its video release date. When the studio lowers the price of the movie, we'll adjust its price in our store. But if you love it, and want it now, we want you to have it. Enjoy! Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours._ Perhaps someone can let the list know if the video is available for legal purchase in India for a lesser price, and where. Two final notes of interest I learned from the Rice University-hosted SAsiaLit archive: 1)there's an online journal focused on South Asian gay and lesbian issues, called Trikone-- it contains an extensive interview with the director: "Burning Bright: A Conversation with Deepa Mehta about Fire" by Ginu Kamani at: http://www.trikone.org/articles/oct97.htm 2) For the India release, Deepa Mehta took a half-stab at caution by changing the Nandita Das character's name to Neeta [from the plot-synchronous Sita]. Didn't do much good, obviously, and it was sad see in a recent _India Today_ that's she's more or less abandoning the completion of a trilogy, the final installments of which [well underway] are called _Water_ [set in Benares] and _Earth_. A Shame. Michael Rabe SXU & SAIC, Chicago P.S. Deepa Metha in that Trikone interview expresses amazement that there's a London-based fan club, website, t-shirts, et al, for the film's houseboy character, Mondu :^) From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sat Jan 9 20:55:08 1999 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 12:55:08 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044816.23782.918103667645307144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following should also be mentioned: Adriana Berger. Fascism and Religion in Romania (review of Eliade's Autobiography, vol. 2, 1988; and Ricketts' Mircea Eliade-The Romanian Roots, 1988). Annals of Scholarship 1989, vol 6, N. 4: 455-465. Berger quotes British intelligence documents from 1940 that suspect Eliade of having Nazi connections. According to her (not in this review, but in a lecture delivered at UC, Berkeley years ago), at the time of his death Eliade was under investigation by the CIA for possible fascist connections during the (pre- and) war years. More importantly, Berger discusses Eliade's occult affiliation in Romania and its fascist ideology. She also writes that, in Eliade's background, the idea of a spiritual East (especially in India, "the land of the pure Aryans") was prominent. Presumably, this influenced his decision to travel to India, where he lived from 1929 to 1931 and stayed at the house of S.N. Dasgupta. Regards, Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 07:59 AM 1/1/99 PST, you wrote: >For Mircea Eliade, the grand historian of religions' >anti-semitic connections, pl. see: > >Nancy Harrowitz (ed.), >Tainted Greatness: Antisemitism and Cultural Heroes, >Temple univ. press, 1994 > >With kind regards, >N. Ganesan > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From emstern at NNI.COM Sat Jan 9 18:01:12 1999 From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 13:01:12 -0500 Subject: Aghehananda Bharathi In-Reply-To: <19990109165315.9906.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044800.23782.5054800340550718010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ><<<< > Whatever has happened of Swami Aghehananda Bharathi,an Austrian by >birth >and who put down his life story in a book and who later >Syracuse Univ.?The last i heared /read about him was in an article >Illustrated Weekly some years back. > >Perhaps List subscribers would have more information on him. >>>>> > > According to the ex. Raja of Kollengode, Palghat district > who is our family friend, Aghehananda Bharati was from Britain > and served in the Indian army before Independence. He later > worked in USA. Bharati died a decade ago & the Raja died > 2 years ago. > > Kollengode Samasthanam hosted Kanchi Mahaperiyaval > in late 1930s. The family album has rare photos of him, > A. Bharati, ... The soma subtitute (called cOmbu in > Tamil) is special for Kollengode region. Tamil brahmins > settled in Kerala for centuries supply them at big > vedic sacrifices to Nambudiris doing the sacrifice. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Swami Agehananda Bharati was an Austrian by birth. To the best of my recollection, he was born and grew up in Vienna. He was certainly not British by birth, and I do not recall that he ever either lived in Britain, or became a British citizen. For many years, until his death, he taught in the Anthropology Department at Syracuse University. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA telephone: 215 747 6204 From garzilli at SHORE.NET Sat Jan 9 12:02:17 1999 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 13:02:17 +0100 Subject: Asiatica Association: IJST 3-1 Message-ID: <161227044786.23782.13804164258297872651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, It is a pleasure to inform you that you can read vol 3, no. 1 of the *International Journal of Tantric Studies* on the official page of the Asiatica Association: http://asiatica.org/ In order to read the IJTS you have to subscribe paying a *life* membership of US$ 35. Please read our page: http://www.asiatica.org/ IN THIS ISSUE: INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF TANTRIC STUDIES Vol. 3 (1998), No. 1, August 23, 1998 ISSN 1084-7553 (c) Copyright IJTS 1995-98. All rights reserved. http://www.asiatica.org/ ftp://ftp.shore.net/india/members/ - NOTE FROM THE EDITOR - PAPERS: * MahAmahopAdhyAya Dr. Gopinath Kaviraj, My Teacher: As I Saw Him* by Debabrata Sen Sharma * Philosophie de l'akula-kula selon les ecoles des kaulas du Tantrisme de l'Inde*, by Dominique Boubouleix - COMPUTER SPACE: * An Interview to T. Matthew Ciolek: Asia Academic Resources on The Internet: How To Collect, Organize, And Manage Them *, by Enrica Garzilli and Ludovico Magnocavallo - REVIEW PAPER: *The Mythology of BrahmA *, by G. BAILEY, with a Foreword by A. L. Basham. Pp. xvi + 256. Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1983. Rs. 100. By Paolo Magnone - NEW TITLES: * Il Monoteismo Hindu. La storia, i testi, le scuole *, by F. Squarcini - C. Bartoli, Pisa: Pacini, 1997. ISBN: 88-77-81-193-5. Pp. 191. Price: Lit 29,000. (P. M.) * Rta-Ritu. An Exhibition on Cosmic Order and Cycle of Seasons (Jan 4 - Mar 30 1966)*, Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts (IGNCA). Pp. 95. (P. M.) * Aforismi dello Yoga (YogasUtra)*, by PATAJjALI, transl. by PAOLO MAGNONE, Torino: Promolibri, 1991. Pp. 183. Price: Lit 24,000. (E.G.) *Brahmins of Nepal *, by PRAKASH RAJ, Kathmandu: Nabeen Publications, 1996. Pp. 47. Price: Nep. Rs 100, Ind. Rs. 70. (E.G.) * Mongolian Portrait - Land of Big Skies*, a photographic essay by ANDREW PAX, Plymouth, Vermont: Five Corners Publications, Ldt., 1996. ISBN: 1-886699-03-8. Pp. 60. (E. G.) - NEWS: * A French-Sanskrit Dictionary * by Andre Signoret * Watch the AOS!, * by Enrica Garzilli - COPYRIGHT NOTICE *********************************END*********************************** Enjoy the reading! -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 9 18:50:58 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 13:50:58 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc.-4 Message-ID: <161227044805.23782.8109699332029543034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/8/99 8:52:25 PM Central Standard Time, narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > The word "parvata" to mean Malaya mountain is worse than > aprasiddha. For a North Indian reader who does not know dravidian it > does not convey the meaning of Malaya mountain at all. It tells him that > vyAkaraNAgamA was obtained from some mountain. parvata will become meaningful if VP 2.485 and 2.486 are considered together. According to Aklujkar, VP 2.485 says," vyAkaraNAgamaH dAkSiNAtyeSu grantha- mAtre vyavasthitaH" meaning "The traditional knowledge (which would include the oral tradition) of grammar remained among the Southerners only in book form" and VP 2.486 runs thus: parvatAD Agamam labdhvA bhASya-bIjAnusAribhiH | sa nIto bahuzaktvAM candrAcAryAdibhiH punaH || meaning "Having required the traditional knowledge from parvata, candrAcArya and others, who followed the indications in the bhASya, again made it (i.e., the traditional knowledge) many-branched". If the parvata is considered in light of the dAkSiNAtyeSu, then it becomes not any mountain but the Southern Mountain or dakSiNAcala or malaya. In his notes to the viSNUpurANa reference of kulaparvatas, H. H. Wilson writes (viSNu purANa, p. 141), "Malaya is the southern portion of the western Ghats:...Sahya is the northern portion of the western Ghats, the mountains of the Konkan" . According to Aklujkar, bhartRhari was from the Nasik area. If bhartRhari were referring to western Ghats, writing from the northern portion, it should be natural for him to write about the southern portion of the Ghats as parvata as dAKSiNAya. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 9 19:05:02 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 14:05:02 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. - 5 Message-ID: <161227044807.23782.6888148207776239994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another factor we have to consider is the history of writing down Sanskrit texts into books "grantha". According to A. L. Basham, "The Tamils... evolved an angular script known as Grantha...It was from India, especially from the south, that the people of South-East Asia learnt the art of writing. The earliest surviving South-East Asian inscriptions, found in Borneo and Malaya, and dating from the 4th or 5th centuries, are in fairly correct Sanskrit, and in a script resembling that of the early Pallavas." (The Wonder that Was India, p. 398). B. Ch. Chhabra, in Expansion of Indo-Aryan Culture, p. 72 says, "Still it is a very remarkable fact that the earliest known inscriptions found in those countries of the Far East are all composed in Sanskrit, all belong approximately to the same period, viz. the fifth century, and are written in a script which in every respect is identical with the Grantha character used at that time on the coast of Coromandel. This is all the more noteworthy if we remember that not a single inscription in earlier Indian writing has come to light in those countries and islands. Neither the Brahmi of the Maurya period nor that of the Imperial Guptas is represented in any of the records found there.. Even more significant is the phenomenon that for several centuries the Pallava-Grantha has remained the only script in vogue both in Further India and in Indonesia (if at least we are to judge from the evidence of the inscriptions) and that during this period it exhibits a development running parallel with that which we notice in the contemporaneous records of Coromandel...The culture of these countries during this period thus bears an unmistakable stamp of Pallava influence." According to R. C. Majumdar (Study of Sanskrit in South-East Asia, p. 25), a Sanskrit inscription was discovered in a place called Vat Luong Kau dated to be of the second half of 5th century AD. "It begins with an invocation to brahmA, viSNu and ziva and then refers to the great king (maharAjAdhirAja) zrI devAnIka and compares him with yudhiSThira, indra, dhanaJjaya, indradyumna, zibi, mahApuruSa, kanakapANDya(?), the great Ocean and meru." The possible name pANDya is of significance here. According to Majumdar, "the great conqueror and powerful Emperor Yazovarman (889-c. 900 A.D.) himself composed a commentary on pataJjali's mahAbhASya".(p. 18) The relationship between SE Asia and the Sanskritists of Tamil region is also underscored by the fact that an inscription of ninth century mentions that the royal guru of Indravarman, zivasoma, "learnt the zAstras from bhagavat zankara" and which "furnishes the only authoritative evidence of the date of zankarAcArya, so far known to us". (p.19) We should also note that the cult of agastya, the malayamuni, later grew more widespread in Java than in South India. (Chhabra, p. 78) In "On The Origin Of The Early Indian Scripts:[1] A Review Article" by Richard Salomon, in the Indology web site, we find, "It is certainly true that intellectual activity in India has always strongly favored oral over written means of expression, and both von Hin?ber and Falk have effectively put to rest the already discredited skepticism about the possibility of oral composition and preservation of the Veda, pANini's grammar, etc. (see e.g. Falk pp.321--7). But the fact that pANini did not use writing in composing the aSTAdhyAyI does not necessarily mean that he was illiterate (cf. Falk p.259); it may only mean that writing was not considered an appropriate vehicle for intellectual endeavors of his kind." This view really should apply only to north Indian Sanskrit situation. The earliest Tamil grammar, tolkAppiyam, talks about some aspects of orthography of Tamil characters and scholars have shown that its author, tolkAppiyar, introduced a technical term "puLLi" to indicate a pure consonant based on orthography. Thus writing down grammatical texts must have had a longer history in Tamil and especially the potiyil region of tolkAppiyar. This tendency could have been transferred to writing Sanskrit grammatical texts also into granthas in the 'grantha' script. This will fit well with the mentioning of grantha in VP 2.485. Regards S. Palaniapp From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 9 22:46:55 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 14:46:55 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044822.23782.10409791955940906556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Adriana Berger. Fascism and Religion in Romania (review of Eliade's Autobiography, vol. 2, 1988; and Ricketts' Mircea Eliade-The Romanian Roots, 1988). Annals of Scholarship 1989, vol 6, N. 4: 455-465. ...>>> May be we should wait for R. S. Ellwood, The politics of myth: a study of C. G. Jung, M. Eliade and J. Campbell, SUNY, 1999. Is Maitreyi Devi related to S. N. Dasgupta? What is the connection to Eliade? Eliade a) Bengal nights b) Maitreyi Maitreyi Devi, It does not die: a romance Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.OR.JP Sat Jan 9 05:50:46 1999 From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.OR.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 14:50:46 +0900 Subject: Ganesa, Laksmi, kubera Message-ID: <161227044764.23782.346423444674807233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I find in A. K. Coomaraswami, Yaksa, II, pl. 8-1, a photography of "Trinity of Fortune": Laksmi seated between Ganesa and Kubera (about eighth century, University Museum of Philadelphia). M. K. Dhavalikar, "Ganesa: Myth and Reality", in Robert Brown, ed., Ganesh. Studies of an Asian God, SUNY Press, 1991, p. 58-59, writes about some Mathura sculptures of the same "trinity". Is there any other example(s) of such "trinity" in the Indian iconography? I also heard that there is a sculpture of sixth century (?) of Navagraha in the Museum of Sarnath, in which Laksmi is flanked by Ganesa (at left) and Sarasvati (at right). I would like to know if this is true, and if there is any reference on this sculpture. Thank you very much in advance! Best regards, Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 9 22:54:16 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 14:54:16 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044824.23782.1608719173190788283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This entire discussion begs the question: Do many famous Dravidian scholars from the West starting from 1970 have a Jewish background? With the exception of Beschi, Brown, Caldwell, Pope who lived in the South India 100+ years ago, not many from the West study the South. Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Jan 9 22:57:52 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 14:57:52 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044818.23782.9980712193423354677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Christopher Fernandez wrote: > > In a message dated 1/8/99 10:28:07 AM Central Standard Time, > sns at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > > >At the same time, is it too much to ask that the same consideration > >be extended to Indian scholars who do not agree to the AI/M theory ? > > In any field of scholarship, theory should be made to fit the > facts and not the other way around. In a recent posting, > it was pointed out that Subhash Kak, one of the prominent > persons opposing the AIM theory, has chosen to ignore the facts > which convincingly show that "Arya/Aryan" had a linguistic > connotation among Indians long before any of the > Indo-European specialists appeared on the scene. Not that I'm defending Kak, but we have to be careful here. You can find some problems with the views of practically any scholar if you look hard enough. >?From my understanding, S. Palaniappan stated that "Arya" was sometimes used in Tamil texts to refer to Sanskrit. He did not mention anything approaching the use of the term for the family of Indo-Aryan languages (or some close facsimile). Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Sat Jan 9 14:10:54 1999 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 15:10:54 +0100 Subject: [Info] 'Electronic archiving, goal of Saraswathi Mahal Library' Message-ID: <161227044784.23782.4154753567906977120.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.webpage.com/hindu/daily/990109/04/0409223d.htm 'Electronic archiving, goal of Saraswathi Mahal Library' Date: 09-01-1999 :: Pg: 05 :: Col: d THANJAVUR, Jan. 8. From kekai at JPS.NET Sun Jan 10 00:03:02 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 16:03:02 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044826.23782.9440167018824505970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > > This indicates that this form of Shiva was an import from Tibet, since he > is identical in form to the Tibetic Shiva. In short, the Later Tamil SIva > you describe is probably an import from Tibet, having displaced the > earlier `Black Siva'. Siva's description in Puranic and related texts would depend on the particular manifestation. As the Kirata hunter in the Mahabharata, Siva was gold-complexioned. Among Siva's dark manifestations are Mahakala "The Great Dark One," Asitanga "black-limbed," Nilalohita "blue-red" and Babhru "brown." Many Puranas state that Siva at the creation was in the form of a red and blue, or simply red colored boy who appeared before Brahma. In the Brahmananda Purana it states: "Many years ago, Brahma desired to create a son who would be just like him in appearance. While he was thus pondering , a boy suddenly appeared on his lap. The boy was partly blue and partly red in complexion and was known as Nilalohita (blue-red)...'Please give me a name,' said the boy. "The word 'rud' means to cry and since you have been crying. I give you the name of Rudra," said Brahma." Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Sat Jan 9 21:21:32 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 16:21:32 -0500 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: <19990108132528.6710.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044769.23782.7742970831552324677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > There is only one 'Siva. > He is of golden color (pon2n2Ar mEn2iyan2E! - Tevaram); > His hair is red (ceJcaTai appan2 in Tiruppan2antAL temple; > aruNajaTezvarasvAmi) The 2 traditions of Siva worship are: 1. Kashimir Shaivism of Tibetic origin, where Siva has the attributes you describe. This is iconic, and the Tibetic Shiva has the features you describe. 2. Dravidian Shaivism which is aniconic in ite purest form (eg. the Lingayats or Virasaivites). There would thus be no iconic evidence of hair colour etc. In general the aniconic form of Siva worshipped is of the darkest material, often considerably darker than the surrounding temple material. > 'Siva in Tamil texts is NOT black either. Later Tamil texts may have some Aryan and/or Tibetan influence. One must analyze the `pure' Dravidian religion of the `Outcaste' Dravidians living in isolated jungles to find if their Siva is white. As per my knowledge, he isn't. > Only his throat is dark/deep blue. This indicates that this form of Shiva was an import from Tibet, since he is identical in form to the Tibetic Shiva. In short, the Later Tamil SIva you describe is probably an import from Tibet, having displaced the earlier `Black Siva'. From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jan 9 11:42:39 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 16:42:39 +0500 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044771.23782.5631266794277239373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:23 08.01.99 -0600, SNS wrote: >I agree with you. Also in a previous message you mentioned >that all German scholars should not be painted with a Nazi brush. >I completely agree to that as well. > >At the same time, is it too much to ask that the same consideration >be extended to Indian scholars who do not agree to the AI/M theory ? ??? Nazi scholars = those who committed themselves to a political ideology that is detrimental to the advance of scientific knowledge Indian scholars who do not agree to AI/M = those who do *not* commit themselves to a view that is politically motivated and is not supported by relevant scientific material I don't think these two groups can be meaningfully compared. Try again. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sun Jan 10 01:20:54 1999 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 17:20:54 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044830.23782.9587072485899441994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:46 PM 1/9/99 PST, Ganesan wrote: > Is Maitreyi Devi related to S. N. Dasgupta? > What is the connection to Eliade? _____ A quote from Berger (p. 456): "During his stay at Dasgupta's house he [Eliade] became romantically involved with Dasgupta's sixteen-year-old daughter, Maitreyi, causing him to be thrown out of Dasgupta's house. Heartbroken, Eliade spent a few months in the Himalayas, where he practiced Yoga in an ashram. Returning to Romania, he published in 1933 the novel Maitreyi, based on the diary he had kept in India." Best regards, Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 10 01:46:49 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 17:46:49 -0800 Subject: Aghehananda Bharathi Message-ID: <161227044834.23782.1493913032407525535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. JayabArathi wrote about one of A. Bharati's books: "The Asians in East Asia:JayHind and Uhuru". Has anybody here read it? Did A. Bharati's career involve a stint with the military also? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Sun Jan 10 01:43:52 1999 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 19:43:52 -0600 Subject: Q. re: varna/caste In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044832.23782.11744534136083635567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Partha Banerjee wrote: > >We are seeking a scholar to write a chapter on _varna_ (caste), based on > >knowledge of classical Hindu texts for our forthcoming book the _Hindu > >World_ (Routeldge). > > > >Regards, > >Sushil and Gene > _____________________ > > I hope when someone writes a chapter on the caste system in Hinduism, he or > she writes about the historical exploitation aspect of it, i.e., how varna > custom with its extreme rigidity has oppressed the so-called lower castes > and untouchables in South Asia, and consequently, how many millions of > Hindus have left their religion to find refuge in other systems that are > relatively free of this social menace. Such as ? Name your religion and I will show you the poor and downtrodden. And yes, millions of converts too. But only your favourite religion (Islam) has the dubious distinction of being the most bloody system (or the lack thereof) this world has ever known. > I want to quote Swami Vivekananda here: > > "The Mohammedan conquest of India came as a salvation to the downtrodden, > to the poor. That is why one-fifth of our people have become Mohammedans. > It was not the sword that did it all." (Complete Works, Vol. 3: p. 294) It didn't do it all, it did most of it. Starvation, poverty and subsequent chaos did the rest. Rape a country for long enough, and you can get enough confused illogical decisions to fund the twisted ideologies of a thousand left-wingers like you Mr. Banerjee. Yet another of these Swami Vivekananda quotes taken out of context, and yet another harmless post being misused for personal propoganda. Yet another mailing list being subjected to your hate mail. Please, Mr. Banerjee, surely you know the difference between "poor and downtrodden", and the four varnas. There are various works that describe the varnas in great detail, and how it's distributed and decentralized system has been one of the strengths of hindu society, until the current Dark Age. Feel free to read them. Mr. Banerjee, this list is called "Indology", and not "Anti-Hinduism", and definitely not "Banerjee-logy". Join some Muslim/Christian/Communist mailing lists for spreading your personal hatred about Hinduism. If you like Islam so much, feel free to embrace it. Either way, I couldn't care less, as long as you stop subjecting me and the other Hindus on this list to false anti-hindu propoganda. Oh, and I have about a thousand quotes on communism, the Islamic conquest of India, and the various other themes you use to spread your hatred about Hinduism. Yes, some of them from Swami Vivekananda too. Don't get me started. Who knows, you might decide to return to the RSS, and you wouldn't want that, would you ? I have a feeling the RSS wouldn't. :-) ~sumedh From ellraven at WXS.NL Sat Jan 9 20:22:52 1999 From: ellraven at WXS.NL (Raven, E.M.) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 21:22:52 +0100 Subject: Ganesa, Laksmi, kubera Message-ID: <161227044814.23782.14826517530116643857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nobumi Iyanaga wrote: > > Hello, > > I find in A. K. Coomaraswami, Yaksa, II, pl. 8-1, a photography of "Trinity > of Fortune": Laksmi seated between Ganesa and Kubera (about eighth century, > University Museum of Philadelphia). > > M. K. Dhavalikar, "Ganesa: Myth and Reality", in Robert Brown, ed., Ganesh. > Studies of an Asian God, SUNY Press, 1991, p. 58-59, writes about some > Mathura sculptures of the same "trinity". > > Is there any other example(s) of such "trinity" in the Indian iconography? > > I also heard that there is a sculpture of sixth century (?) of Navagraha in > the Museum of Sarnath, in which Laksmi is flanked by Ganesa (at left) and > Sarasvati (at right). I would like to know if this is true, and if there is > any reference on this sculpture. > > Thank you very much in advance! > > Best regards, > > Nobumi Iyanaga > Tokyo, > Japan Dear Nobumi Iyanaga, Dr. Gouriswar Bhattacharya has recently published an article entitled `The trio of prosperity : a Gupta terracotta plaque from Bangladesh' in South Asian Studies 12 (1996): 39-47. I quote the abstact with the entry on this publication in the ABIA South and Southeast Asian Art and Archaeology Index, an annotated bibliography and database, of which vol. 1 has just been published: `Presents a terracotta plaque from the Gupta period in the Bangladesh National Museum Dhaka with a seated Gaja-Laksmi flanked by a two-armed Ganesa and perhaps Kubera. Dates it to the 5th century A.D. Shows the iconographic development of such triads by comparisons to similar, 7th to 12th-century pieces from North Bengal and Rajasthan.' (ABIA Index 1996, entry no. 138). Ellen Raven coordinating editor for South Asia ABIA Index, IIAS, Leiden abiaraven at rullet.leidenuniv.nl From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jan 10 02:54:22 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 21:54:22 -0500 Subject: Aghehananda Bharathi Message-ID: <161227044788.23782.13286256905834499542.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Whatever has happened of Swami Aghehananda Bharathi,an Austrian by birth and who put down his life story in a book and who later Syracuse Univ.?The last i heared /read about him was in an article Illustrated Weekly some years back. Perhaps List subscribers would have more information on him. Krish. From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jan 10 03:29:30 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 22:29:30 -0500 Subject: Aghehananda Bharathi In-Reply-To: <19990109165315.9906.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044796.23782.11149905964844891069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am afraid the swamiji you had referred to is not the one i had mentioned. I have read the auto biography -a copy was available in IIT Madras library.He was a scholar,well learned in sanscrit and scriptures beside the fluency in hindi etc. According to his storey he was ordained by amonk from the lineage of Sringeri and hence the appendage Bharathi.He was also said to be a very colourful personality.During his sojourn in Syracuse Univ. he was said to officiate in hindu functions,weddings etc.He was also said to be well versed in Tantric rituals. Krish. From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 10 14:32:54 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 06:32:54 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044841.23782.13879853222081623714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/9/99 3:58:01 PM Central Standard Time, kekai at JPS.NET writes: > From my understanding, S. Palaniappan stated that "Arya" was > sometimes used in Tamil texts to refer to Sanskrit. No. He said, "There is ample evidence that Arya was a name for Sanskrit and its derivates." Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 10 14:46:38 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 06:46:38 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. - 5 Message-ID: <161227044843.23782.2117444127005609425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< According to R. C. Majumdar (Study of Sanskrit in South-East Asia, p. 25), a Sanskrit inscription was discovered in a place called Vat Luong Kau dated to be of the second half of 5th century AD. "It begins with an invocation to brahmA, viSNu and ziva and then refers to the great king (maharAjAdhirAja) zrI devAnIka and compares him with yudhiSThira, indra, dhanaJjaya, indradyumna, zibi, mahApuruSa, kanakapANDya(?), the great Ocean and meru." The possible name pANDya is of significance here. >>> Prof. J. Filliozat in 1960s has written in a few places about Sri-Maara in South East Asian inscriptions. He has shown that from the contexts of the inscriptions, Sri-Maara donates the tutelary title of Pandya kings - mARan. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Jan 10 02:24:29 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 07:24:29 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc.-1 In-Reply-To: <199901091950.LAA25540@law-f106.hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044838.23782.2562010244336731239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Leaving alone the generalisations the best way to determine what is meant by the passages is to see the original sanskrit passages. Though I have requested Ashok Aklujkar for a copy of his paper sometime back there was no response. If you have the paper and the original quotations It will be very useful makle it available to the list in the form of a posting. regards, sarms. If you have the original sanskrit At 11:50 AM 1/9/99 PST, you wrote: >In a message dated 1/6/99 10:26:05 PM Central Standard Time, >narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > >> I wonder whether Asok Aklujkar meant it. But since this is based >> on translation of sanskrit passages and sanskrit does not have >> articles "a", "an" and "the", I think drawing any conclusions >> from it will be misleading. > >This does not make sense. If what you say is true, more than > 200 years of Indological scholarship has been a waste of time. >In other words, according to you, when the Sanskrit texts are >translated into English, articles 'a', 'an', and 'the' do not > carry any semantic specificity! They have been thrown about >here and there for no reason! > >Every language has its own set of "tools" to convey the correct > meaning. So it is immaterial if Sanskrit does not have a, an, the, >etc. as English does. What Aklujkar has written is clear enough. > If you question Aklujkar's understanding of the Sanskrit texts, >please give your interpretation of the relevant texts he has >referred to, and explain why your interpretation is better than his. > >Chris > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 10 15:50:05 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 07:50:05 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc.-1 Message-ID: <161227044845.23782.16825296458079699623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/9/99 8:32:01 PM Central Standard Time, narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > If you have the > paper and the original quotations It will be very useful > makle it available to the list in the form of a posting. Unfortunately, I do not have the paper. My comments were based on what have been posted. Any way, most on the list do not seem to be interested in this thread. Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Jan 10 02:59:00 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 07:59:00 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc.-4 In-Reply-To: <4d4d8612.3697a512@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227044835.23782.7994564294867553231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a name for this in Indology. It ia called "text torturing". I want to point out that the adjuctive "dakshiNa" is used for people and the word "parvata" does not have this adjuctive. There is no logic or justification at all for dragging the adjuctive used for the people and linking it with "parvata" except that it suits us. This is in addition to the text torturing done to the word "dakshiNAtya" which has a well defined meaning in sanskrit literature. regards, sarma. At 01:50 PM 1/9/99 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 1/8/99 8:52:25 PM Central Standard Time, >narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > >> The word "parvata" to mean Malaya mountain is worse than >> aprasiddha. For a North Indian reader who does not know dravidian it >> does not convey the meaning of Malaya mountain at all. It tells him that >> vyAkaraNAgamA was obtained from some mountain. > >parvata will become meaningful if VP 2.485 and 2.486 are considered together. >According to Aklujkar, VP 2.485 says," vyAkaraNAgamaH dAkSiNAtyeSu grantha- >mAtre vyavasthitaH" meaning "The traditional knowledge (which would include >the oral tradition) of grammar remained among the Southerners only in book >form" and VP 2.486 runs thus: parvatAD Agamam labdhvA bhASya-bIjAnusAribhiH | >sa nIto bahuzaktvAM candrAcAryAdibhiH punaH || meaning "Having required the >traditional knowledge from parvata, candrAcArya and others, who followed the >indications in the bhASya, again made it (i.e., the traditional knowledge) >many-branched". > >If the parvata is considered in light of the dAkSiNAtyeSu, then it becomes not >any mountain but the Southern Mountain or dakSiNAcala or malaya. In his notes >to the viSNUpurANa reference of kulaparvatas, H. H. Wilson writes (viSNu >purANa, p. 141), "Malaya is the southern portion of the western Ghats:...Sahya >is the northern portion of the western Ghats, the mountains of the Konkan" . >According to Aklujkar, bhartRhari was from the Nasik area. If bhartRhari were >referring to western Ghats, writing from the northern portion, it should be >natural for him to write about the southern portion of the Ghats as parvata as >dAKSiNAya. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > > From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 10 16:39:36 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 08:39:36 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. -4 Message-ID: <161227044847.23782.10273696198613685475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/9/99 8:31:58 PM Central Standard Time, narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > There is a name for this in Indology. It ia called "text torturing". > I want to point out that the adjuctive "dakshiNa" is used for >people and the word "parvata" does not have this adjuctive. There > is no logic or justification at all for dragging the adjuctive >used for the people > and linking it with "parvata" except that it suits us. > > This is in addition to the text torturing done to the word > "dakshiNAtya" which has a well defined meaning in sanskrit > literature. If I understand you correctly, you might have hit on the right approach to understanding VP 2.486. Aren't you suggesting that based on your analysis of VP 2.485 and VP 2.486, there is no way "parvata" can be semantically associated with "dAkSiNAtyeSu", and that "parvata" cannot refer to a person at all? Then, am I right in assuming that, according to you, any implication of such association or equivalence reflects ignorance of proper Sanskrit usage? Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Sun Jan 10 00:43:02 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 08:43:02 +0800 Subject: Aghehananda Bharathi Message-ID: <161227044828.23782.9777208995738072812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:29 PM 1/9/99 -0500, you wrote: > I am afraid the swamiji you had referred to is not the one i had >mentioned. I have read the auto biography -a copy was >available in IIT Madras library.He was a scholar,well learned in >sanscrit and scriptures beside the fluency in hindi etc. >According to his storey he was ordained by amonk from the lineage of >Sringeri and hence the appendage Bharathi.He was also said to be a >very colourful personality.During his sojourn in Syracuse Univ. >he was said to officiate in hindu functions,weddings etc.He was also said >to be well versed in Tantric rituals. > >Krish. > Professor Agehananda Bharathi was a well-renowned and knowledgeable person in the Tantras. He has authored a much-read work called "the Tantric Tradition" in 1964. Apart from this, he has also written, "The Ochre Robe", "A Functional Analysis of Indian Thought and Its Social Margins", and "The Asians in East Asia:JayHind and Uhuru". He completed "The Tantric Tradition" when he was in Kenya. Regards Jayabarathi ================================================== From kekai at JPS.NET Sun Jan 10 17:59:33 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 09:59:33 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044849.23782.10540626103276618922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Christopher Fernandez wrote: > > In a message dated 1/9/99 3:58:01 PM Central Standard Time, > kekai at JPS.NET writes: > > > From my understanding, S. Palaniappan stated that "Arya" was > > sometimes used in Tamil texts to refer to Sanskrit. > > No. He said, "There is ample evidence that Arya was a > name for Sanskrit and its derivates." > So the term Arya applied also to Tamil and other Dravidian languages, since these were also considered as descending from Sanskrit? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jan 10 17:07:08 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 12:07:08 -0500 Subject: Aghehananda Bharathi In-Reply-To: <19990110004302.UEJI494@[202.188.69.132]> Message-ID: <161227044840.23782.2949903911635651739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the prompt info on Swami Aghehananda Bharathi. Years back i tried to search in the digitised archives of Syracuse Univ.but drew a blank.The fraternity is more reliable and prompt. Krish. From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sun Jan 10 17:25:07 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 12:25:07 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: <199901091814.MAA19043@dune.artic.edu> Message-ID: <161227044850.23782.3613892447692654031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A little poetry on this thread might not be irrelevant after all. Partha __________ Poet: Cheryl Kanekar Published in AWAKENING, Mumbai, December 1998. __________ Burning issues Members of the Shiv Sena (who call themselves sainiks or soldiers) recently went on rampage in Mumbai and Delhi theatres where the film Fire, directed by Deepa Mehta, was being screened. They objected to the portrayal of a lesbian relationship in the film, saying that it was indecent and against Indian culture. The BJP-led central government promptly sent the film back for review to the censor board which had cleared it earlier. Thanks to all this, Fire is now at the centre of a media storm. Indian culture is in a sad state It's threatened every day By a book, a painting, a ghazal singer, Or a cricket team plotting to play. Just when we were wondering where The onions went from our plates, The Sena turned our heads and showed The real enemy at the gates. A film, a film that dares insult Our ancient glorious land, Yes, the Sena always focuses on The important matters at hand. So Sainiks stormed the theatres, Brought screenings to a halt, The police beamed indulgently And watched their brave assault. The government congratulated Its sainiks on their deed. They were expressing, said Joshisaheb, A deep-felt public need. When others gathered at theatres To protest the Sena's feat, The police swung into action And dragged them off the street. They arrested them, one and all, It's a democratic country, you know, If people want to disrupt a film, It's their democratic right to do so. Our freedom of expression has been taken away, So many of our intellectuals say, But maybe the Sena has on its mind Freedom of expression of another kind. That only time in many years When the masses express their views, Is coming up?election time Will soon be making the news. Time therefore to rake up Such crucial, burning issues. And so the controversy rages on About that film called Fire, Not the fire in our bellies, Not prices rising higher. We wonder where these sainiks are When traders are hoarding food, While people for rotten onions At ration shops have queued. Why no raids on godowns then When many a fattened vulture Is living on people's starvation...? Arre yaar, this hardly threatens our culture! Such a morally upright party... But how is it, one remembers, The Jalgaon sex racket Was run by some of its members? One is now an MLA And state housing minister. But we're quite sure the reason Is not all sinister. Rape and pornography, so the Sena finds, Do not at all harm Indian minds. We wonder many many things But we hesitate to tell. What if our wonderings violate Indian culture as well? So put such un-Bharatiya thoughts At once out of your head, And if you can?t have onions, Have some Indian culture instead! --------------------------------------------- By Cheryl Kanekar -------------------concluded------------------------------------ (Published in AWAKENING, December 1998. Postal Address: Awakening, P.O. Box No. 9753, Mumbai 400 098, India.) From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sun Jan 10 19:34:14 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 13:34:14 -0600 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044855.23782.1609685310272738801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Happily, I stand corrected: it is only the last film in the trilogy that remains unfinished. See below:* >I haven't seen Fire yet so I can't comment, but "Earth" is out. I saw it >recently at the Asia Society in New York. It is about the partition of >India based on Bapsi Siddhwa's book "Cracked India." Rather tepid >treatment of a powerful subject in my opinion. I was disappointed. The >diaglogue was superficial, editing and timing were lame and the characters >cardboardish. This was a cinematographic opportunity to create an epic, >but they missed the mark by a mile. However, although it bordered on >Bollywood occasionally, it was not in that category. Some of the scenes, >like the interiors of the Parsee household, were very evocative and I am >glad I saw the film anyway. For a second, more positive review of _Earth_ I'll be forwarding a statement by Georgana Foster. > >Amita Sarin > > it was sad see >>in a recent _India Today_ that's she's more or less abandoning the >>completion of a trilogy, the final installments of which [well underway] >>are called _Water_ [set in Benares] and _Earth_. A Shame. >> >>Michael Rabe >>SXU & SAIC, Chicago *_The Canada-based mehta was headed for Varanasi to script _Water_, a film about widows and the last in the trilogy. _I was in mid-sentence, it was a scene about an eight-year old widow getting her head shaved and I stopped. what's the point? It will never be passed. I can't write in this climate._ It's this climate of insecurity that has se the alarm bells ringing." INDIA TODAY INTERNATIONAL, December 21, 1998, p. 41 From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sun Jan 10 20:39:58 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 14:39:58 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044857.23782.16659310712102851224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a separate post, I respond to this personal communication, worth forwarding: >Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:43:43 -0500 >From: Georgana Foster >Subject: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ >To: mrabe at artic.edu >MIME-version: 1.0 >X-UIDL: e9093eda9508ff414273cac817ae1ab2 > >Dear Michael, > I have been following the discussing about "Fire" with great >interest.As I first saw the movie almost two years ago, I had not begun >thinking about it again until the recent articles in India Abroad about >what is happening in India in regard to the sending back the film to the >censors. Also there were two events recently around the film in the >northeast. At Smith College this fall, the South Indian students at this >women's college opened their weekend with a discussion with the director >and a showing of the film. Unfortunately, I was sick and didn't get to >this; And in early Dec.at the Asia Society in New York City they had a >premier of Deepa Mehta's newest film, "Earth" with a discussion. This is >made from the book "Cracking India" by Bapsi Sidhu, and is a child's view >of partition from Lahore. Also on our NPR station there was a review of >Fire, by a film critic who thought Earth was better, asthe people in Fire >just represented types. . > As I remember in seeing the film, I felt the scene of fire in the >kitchen was evocative of dowry deaths in India, which are often called >"accidents" which happen in the kitchen. . I know there were two scenes >from Ramayana being done by different drama groups, but I do not remember >if they were Sita's fire sacrifice. I need to see it again. > I did however,feel very impressed by the blending together >different strands which I know about from my courses and research. First >was the relation of the young modern couple, used to pornography, affairs, >and how their arranged marriage was held up against the ideal for Sita in >the Ramayana. I don't think I even thought of Sita's fire sacrifice. But on >the part of the older couple there was the very complex situation of the >husband, who was trying to live up to an ideal of being chaste in marriage, >as prescribed by his guru, and testing himself, like Mahatma Gandhi >sleeping with his niece; this is also a ideal of the Brahma Kumari >organization, (for description see Alan Babb's "Redemptive Encounters- >Three Modern styles in the Hindu Tradition" Oxford, l986,) and Morris >Carstairs, "The Twice Born-a study of a community of High Caste Hindus" > l96l which describes this doctors contact with his patients. The idea that >the spiritual powers of a person can be built up by conserving sexual >fluids and if they are "spilled" one loses power is very central to much >Hindu mythology, and I have studied it in connection with the mythology of >the goddesses. Also it seems that the wife could not have children, so the >husband was taking this path. > I felt that there was almost too much symbolism once all of these >things were put together, and the Lesbianism seemed just a bit gratutious; >but of course, was necessary to the plot if one were not making a >documentary. > I have seen Anand Pardwardhans "Father, Son and Holy War" which in >its presentation of the the cases of Sati, and other things about Indian >chauvanism, is much much more radical than Fire. I heard him show the two >parts of the movie and discuss it with students for above five hours, a >couple of years ago. > So I would say, it is wise to be prepared with knowledge about all >kinds of contemporary political/ social issues in India and not to be naive >if this movie were to be used for an Indology class. > Where am I coming from on this: I am affiliated with Independent >Scholars of South Asia, and belong to ACSAA. I lived in India first in >l949, and have lived there six plus years over 50 years. In l990, I lived >in Hyderabad AP when there was "frenzied killings" following the first try >at the Babri Mosque-Ramajanambhomni. I had just finished a second BA in SA >studies with an interdisciplinary program, and the use of the Ramayana in >India at that period was striking and horrible. I made a slide paper of >pictures from the media and my own, and showed it at the South Asia >conference at Wisconsin in Oct. l990, and at CRISI in l99l, and have >revised it for use in visiting classes in the Five College consortium the >last six years.My field of interest is contemporary folk art of the goddess >and I am giving my collection to the U. of Iowa I have many of the things >which are in Barbara Rossi's book on Ocean of Painting. Art historians >are now beginning to look more at contemporary iconography in India which >is related to ancient, an idea which Gary Tartakov, my first art history >professor, taught me in l974. and was illustrated by Richard Davis at the >Charlestown symposium in his Bharat Mata paper. > I do not know exactly how to send messages to the whole site which >you maintain, so am sending this to you. I also noticed recently that I >have two listings on the site address list, one of which is incorrect. So I >don't get anything from anyone but you, but I find your items very >interesting. > Georgana Foster > > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 10 23:17:51 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 15:17:51 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227044865.23782.5395535900253761792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. D.V.N. Sarma writes: *In my next post I will locate dhAnyakaTaka which chandragomin visited *in the telugu country (which fact none of the previous postings in * this thread bothered to mention). This is not correct, I am afraid. Taranatha saying "After visiting DhanyakaTaka, Candragomin settled in Potalaka of the Malaya mountain" was posted two days ago. It was posted in the writeups with the title "where was Panini inspired?" also long ago. Regards N. Ganesan ----------------------------- Two days ago, N. Ganesan posted: <<< .... Taaraanaatha, the Tibetan lama, says that after CandragomI prayed to Tara and Avalokitezvara in DhanyakaTaka and building a hundred temples for ^^^^^^^^^^^^ each of them, he goes to settle down Potalka mount. Taranatha's history of Buddhism, p. 202ff. "In the DhAnyakaTaka caitya there, he [=CandragomI] worshipped TArA and Arya Avalokitezvara and built a hundred temples for each of them. He went to the Potala hill and is still living there without renouncing his mortal body". Candragomin who saved Mahabhasya tradition from extinction settled in Potalaka in the deep South, according to Taaraanaatha (1600 AD). This is consistent with the Tamil tradition (from 11th century onwards) that Siddhas' residence par excellence is Potiyil/Potikai mountain. Ptolomy calls Potikai(Potiyil) Mountain as Bettigo. Mahabhaarata vanaparvan has Agastya in the Malaya mountain. Dandin calls Potiyil as the Southern mountain(dakSiNAdri). Dandin's usage parallels with the earlier Tamil tradition from Sangam era onwards that Malaya is THE Southern mountain. PuRanaanUru and Cilappatikaaram refers to Himalayas and Potiyil (Malaya) mountains in the same line. They are the cultural symbols of North and South in early Tamil literature. Candragomin, who saved the Mahabhasya tradition from extinction went and settled down at the Mount Potalaka. He is still living there, according to Taranatha. >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sun Jan 10 21:24:12 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 15:24:12 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044860.23782.5877150157381910267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:43:43 -0500 Georgana Foster wrote: ... > As I remember in seeing the film, I felt the scene of fire in the >kitchen was evocative of dowry deaths in India, which are often called >"accidents" which happen in the kitchen. . . Exactly MY strongest reaction to this film as well. So much so that, for me at least, the lebsianism is but a diversionary plot twist--not the core, name-giving challenge posed by Deepa Mehta. Rather, this is the burning question by which I was struck IMMEDIATELY, and still ponder [since I've not seen it commented on, let alone answered definitively, in any of the 50 posts of the SAsiaLit thread or elsewhere]: To wit: _How, in fact, does the film end?! Is the final sequence in the Nizamudin gardens but a ghostly after image of what might have been, or does Radha PHYSICALLY survive the accident unscathed?_ I wanted to research this question further before bringing it up myself...especially given recollections that on Indology several months ago some objected, and rightly so, that a news-reported human sacrifice to Kali should be dismissed as nothing more than an isolated crime story...Yes, Laurie Patton, who DOES speak for Hinduism? But, obviously, the film's finale allusion to this kitchen-fire phenomenon is not so easily disallowed as beyond the pale of indological discussion, given the scores of thousands of incidents in recent years: 5,817 in 1993 alone according to one of the articles I cite below, from the Journal of South Asian Women Studies. Not that I intend to read them all before continuing this thread for at least one final post on my part, here, for the record are abstracted abstracts of revelance to this aspect of the _Fire_ motif: http://www.asiatica.org/publications/jsawsbookabs.asp#abstracts Abstracts of the Papers Vol. 1, No. 1 (November 1995) Whether Inheritance to Women is a Viable Solution to the Dowry Problem in India by Subhadra Chaturvedi Abstact: The gravest form of the problem is dowry death, the enormity whereof can be visualized by the fact that according to the National Crime Records Bureau of India, in 1994, there occurred a dowry death in India every 102 minutes. According to a statement made by the State Minister for Home Affairs in the Parliament of India, the number of dowry deaths in 1993 was 5,817..... Female inheritance will give financial security to women and will eliminate the rationalization of money transfer before and/or after wedding in the form of dowry and/or "stridhan". Vol. 2, No. 2 (May 15, 1996) Sati Was Not Enforced in Ancient Nepal by Jayaraj Acharya Abstract: Sati, the ancient custom in the Hindu religion of a wife being burnt with her dead husband, does not seem to have been enforced in ancient Nepal, that is during the rule of the Licchavi dynasty (c. A.D. 300-879). In this paper, about 190 stone inscriptions from this period are considered. The only Licchavi inscription which has a reference to the sati system is the inscription of Manadeva I at the Changu Narayana temple in the north-eastern corner of the Kathmandu valley (A.D. 464). This inscription does not refer to the committing of sati but abstention from it. ... Practical Steps Towards Saving the Lives of 25,000 Potential Victims of Dowry and Bride Burning in India by Himendra B. Thakur Abstract: This paper offers an analysis of one of the remedies that could be suggested for dowry: young women should refuse to marry as soon as the groom's family asks for dowry. It gives statistics and examines: 1) the cases of dowry-deaths in India; 2) the geographical distribution of the concentration of dowry deaths per million Hindu population. In the last part of the paper, Thakur outlines three immediate, and a long-term solutions for women who refuse to marry because of the demand for dowry. Vol. 2, No. 4 (December 22, 1996) Domestic Violence: A Daily Terror in Most Mauritian Families by Ranjita Bunwaree-Phukan Dowry, 'Dowry Deaths', and Violence Against Women by Julia Leslie Abstract: For several months in 1994 Leslie made a collection of clippings on dowry deaths from several papers in India: the daily newspapers The Hindu, The Deccan Herald, and The Indian Express, the monthly India Today, and an occasional Times of India. She noted that the giving of dowry in the first place is traditionally justified in terms of giving the daughter her "inheritance" at the time of marriage, even though only a small proportion of that dowry is ever intended for her own use. Through this unsystematic survey, Leslie studied whether dowry deaths were a middle-class phenomenon, how prevalent was the custom of demanding and giving dowry, and whether dowry deaths and the system of dowry were generally increasing. She asked people who was to blame for dowry, and the result was that 83% of the women respondents in this study criticized the system of dowry, while men said that women were responsible for it. She concludes that anyone can be victimized by the dowry system, even men. Her last question is whether dowry is the real problem. Finally she lists a series of proposals to eradicate the phenomenon. Hindu Marriage System, Hindu Scriptures, and Dowry and Bride-Burning in India by Ram Narayan Tripathi Abstract: The paper by Ram Narayan Tripathi is a survey of the traditional forms of Hindu marriage through the scriptures and its connection with the modern crime of dowry and bride-burning in India. ... Little Dowry, No Sati: The Lot of Women in the Vedic Period by Michael E. J. Witzel Abstract: This paper focuses on two main topics: sati and dowry in Vedic times. The wife was bound to her new family for life, and beyond it. Whether she had to follow her husband to the other world at the time of his death or shortly afterwards, has been a keen topic of discussion. Rigveda 10.18.8 talks about the return of the widow to her settlement, together with her relatives. In Atharvaveda 18.3.1 this argument is further expanded. These passages indicate clearly that a widow was not to be buried or cremated with her husband. Later Vedic texts are silent on the topic. In short: there was no sati in the Vedic texts, from the Rigveda down to the Upanisads and the Sutras. In the case of dowry, even less material is visible from the early Vedic period. However, even in the RV there are a few indications of the right of women to inherit. In the post-Rigvedic texts, the Brahmanas, it is clear that a woman was regarded as the possession of her husband, and generally in a socially lower position. In some texts there is a form of "a bride price" to get a husband for the daughter. On the other hand, dowry in a mild form existed as well: at the time of marriage, the father of the bride gave presents to the bridegroom. These gifts were expressively described as "mutual" between the groom and the bride or their families. In Vedic India, the wife did not have her own possessions; she did not even own herself. If women, especially brotherless maidens, were freer than they were in later India, their freedom was restricted in many ways. Bride burning or dowry deaths, of course, did not occur at all. Dowry did exist at the time, but is was given in a framework of mutual exchange between the two families involved. Michael Rabe SXU & SAIC From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 10 22:31:07 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 17:31:07 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: <199901092055.MAA13148@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227044863.23782.4215567808166281858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The following should also be mentioned: > >Adriana Berger. Fascism and Religion in Romania (review of Eliade's >Autobiography, vol. 2, 1988; and Ricketts' Mircea Eliade-The Romanian Roots, >1988). >Annals of Scholarship 1989, vol 6, N. 4: 455-465. > >Berger quotes British intelligence documents from 1940 that suspect Eliade >of having Nazi connections. .... I don't have the reference at hand, but I seem to recall that Ivan Strenski has written about Eliade and about Berger's criticisms in a book on 4 figures in Comparative Religion (all my materials are in the office -- sorry), and he went to the trouble to check the British documents, at least some of which -- *if* I recall correctly -- do not say what Dr Berger said they say... Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Jan 10 19:18:51 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 00:18:51 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990109171430.13761.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044853.23782.12870054503754041435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:14 AM 1/9/99 PST, you wrote: > Thanks for the info, Mr. Sarma. However, the attempt > to locate parvata is not so easy or 'absurd' as one would > assume. > "yatnE kRtE yadi na siddhyati kO.atra dOshaH". Let us be clear about some general commonsense points. 1. Because of the poor means of communication in the old days, normally any thing that travels to tamilnadu has to go either through Andhra or Maharashtra. This means that whether it is mahAyAna or mahAbhAshyA, normally it will be communicated to tamilnadu after it has been established in these two regions. The chances of a jump right from north to tamilnadu is very very unlikely. Remember there were no aeroplanes in those days and travel was by foot or at the most by horse drawn carriage and very few people could afford the latter. 2. Similarly if anybody wanted to get something from the south he will search these two regions first for the thing required and only if does not find it in these regions he will go to tamilnadu or other more southern region. Sheer economics will dictate this. The above two are based on geography and trying to fight them will be like fighting the windmills. The other point I want to be understood is that Andhra and especially nAgArjunakonda in Guntur District of Andhra region was an internationally renouned region for both mahAyAna and hInayAna buddhism. It is generally accepted that the great buddhist philosopher nAgArjuna lived in nAgArjunakonda and we have inscriptional evidence that budhhist monks from ceylon came here to study hInayana. In my next post I will locate dhAnyakaTaka which chandragomin visited in the telugu country (which fact none of the previous postings in this thread bothered to mention). regards, sarma. From ellraven at WXS.NL Mon Jan 11 00:18:39 1999 From: ellraven at WXS.NL (Raven, E.M.) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 01:18:39 +0100 Subject: email of M. Carter needed Message-ID: <161227044867.23782.5946964714721945801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry Falk wrote: > > In a recent posting someone gave the postal address of Dr. Martha L. > Carter together with her email address. Unfortunately, the > latter seems to be outdated. Could someone please communicate > the present-day email address? > Thanks, > Harry Falk Unfortunately Dr. Carter's e-mail that I suggested last time was outdated. The data below are new and come directly from her: `e-mail: thoscarter at msn.com. I will be in Phoenix on and off for the next few weeks. My fax no. there is 602 488 8314. Please tell Dr. Falk to fax me in Phoenix between Jan 14 and 23 or e-mail here in Wis. after that until Feb. 13 when I go back to Phoenix until March 10.' Ellen Raven From galewicz at VELA.FILG.UJ.EDU.PL Sun Jan 10 23:19:02 1999 From: galewicz at VELA.FILG.UJ.EDU.PL (galewicz) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 01:19:02 +0200 Subject: SAyaNa & MAdhava Message-ID: <161227057682.23782.9861266163936119761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NowyelementMicrosoftWord-dokument.doc Type: application/msword Size: 4608 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Mon Jan 11 09:04:13 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 03:04:13 -0600 Subject: 90:98 vs 56:64-97 Message-ID: <161227044879.23782.16695598383377711430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Editorial in today's New York Times, by "a Hindu writer who lives in New York," and forwarded, FYI, on grounds of the Academic Fair Use, enshrined in US Law: January 11, 1999 India Steps Up Anti-Christian Violence By TUNKA VARADARAJAN [http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/oped/11tunk.html] On Christmas Day a school run by Christians was burned down by arsonists. Another school nearby was demolished by a mob. In a separate incident, a church was stoned. Several women hiding inside were injured, as were the nuns who sought to shield them. This happened a month after a Roman Catholic priest was murdered and religious fanatics vowed to turn an entire district into a "Christian-free zone." In keeping with this promise, a chapel was set on fire. Elsewhere, armed men broke into a Catholic convent and assaulted two nuns inside, and another Catholic priest was shot dead. This is only a partial list of crimes that all occurred in India, where fanatics from the far right of the Hindu nationalist spectrum have formed shadowy "armies" intent on ridding the country of its religious minorities and of turning it into a Hindu state. So consumed are they by hatred of "foreign" religions that one of their leaders -- Ashok Singhal of the World Hindu Council -- said recently that the award of the Nobel Prize for economics to Amartya Sen, the renowned Indian economist, was evidence of a "Christian conspiracy to propagate their religion and wipe out Hinduism from the country." What was the basis for such a preposterous statement? Simply that Mr. Sen (who happens to be Hindu) has written that India's development and prosperity depend on mass literacy. Mr. Sen's true purpose, the Hindu fanatics say, is to enable Christian missionaries to establish educational institutions across the country, using schools as Trojan Horses from which to unleash evangelist hordes. What we are witnessing in India is the growth of a sort of Hindu Taliban movement. Although it is difficult to gauge the numbers accurately, the various extremist groups are believed to have tens of thousands of supporters. In recent years, Muslims have been their principal victims. Christians, who constitute 2.4 percent of the population -- 23 million people-- had, on the whole, been left alone. But that has now changed. Emboldened by the first ever Hindu nationalist Government in New Delhi, extremist groups now feel they have friends in high places. In addition, the Government, which has suffered a series of defeats in recent provincial elections, is too concerned with its own survival to rein them in. According to the United Christian Forum for Human Rights, an umbrella group that brings together leaders from the various Christian denominations in India, 90 separate acts of violence were committed against Christians or Christian churches in 1998. There were only 53 attacks from 1964 to 1997. Unlike Muslim, Christian or Jewish fundamentalists, who generally base their radicalism in a sacred text, Hindu fundamentalists have no central text to appeal to. As a result, they have resorted to conflating Hinduism with "Indianness," giving their religious bigotry a nationalist and temporal complexion. They have constructed a Manichaean world in which Hindus are "true" Indians and all others are "outsiders." The formulation is curious since Islam came to India about 1,200 years ago, and Christianity arrived even earlier. Some historians date India's Christian roots to the first century A.D. But the current battle is not over the historical record. It is a battle for India's soul. The secular state is not about to crumble overnight. What is imperiled, however, is India's tolerant, secular civilization. Tunku Varadarajan, a Hindu, is a writer based in New York. From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Mon Jan 11 09:26:21 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 03:26:21 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044882.23782.6298177688517879294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: "Andrew" To: Subject: fire Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:24:30 -0600 HI, to my amazed joy, "Fire" was available at local chain vid store and we watched it last night. As a contemporary movie dealing with difficult problems of tradition and modernity (questions I've been thinking about for Art Journal), I think "Fire" is excellent. Except for the ending, which seemed to conform to Bollywood formula that someone must die for a problem to be resolved (and I confess I don't really know that much about Bollywood movies), the movie dealt with complexities in a sophisticated manner. Artists talk about such complexities of contemporary and tradition, but few confront the issue head on effectively (not an easy task afterall). Maybe the lesbianism is simplified (I've not followed the controversy, is that what people tend to be upset about-- that it showed lesbianism?). But the only artist well-known that deals with such an issue (gay) that I am aware of is Bhupen Khakhar, so it is not an openly discussed issue. There are NRI groups more openly gay, but obviously that is a different situation than in India. However, many people in India don't think of Bhupen as 'gay artist', simply as a famous artist. The tension of tradition and contemporary makes Fire important to me. When Sita said (something like) "I have a button in me called tradition and I can push that button and become traditional...." even when the tradition (fasting for a worthless husband) had no meaning, I thought that was the main issue. So, Mike, summarize the debate for me please. I assume the fundamentalist Hindu voice simply feels threatened by the movie. Andre *************** Andrew: According to the _IndiaToday_ article I quoted yesterday, Bal Thackeray [simply] needed a new issue to enflame his Sainik partisans, following the BJP Central Govt decision to permit the Pakistan Cricket Team to tour India for a series of tests, scheduled to start shortly. The rest is history in the making...stay tuned. Michael Rabe SXU & SAIC replying to: Andrew Cohen, Ph.D. [University of Chicago] Dept of Art University of Central Arkansas Conway, AR 72032 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 13:07:20 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 05:07:20 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044888.23782.9153480460444935311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are many instances where "Siva is described as red or golden in both Tamil and Sanskrit texts. There is only one "Siva. I have not seen evidence for Dravidian "dark" 'Siva in Old Tamil texts. Are there any? Have not seen African or Tibetan 'Siva prior to 10th century either. Regards, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------------ On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote in reply to the 2-Siva theory, > Among Siva's dark manifestations are > Mahakala "The Great Dark One," Asitanga "black-limbed," Nilalohita > "blue-red" and Babhru "brown." Thanks, Paul. Could there be any connection between these manifestations and African `Siva-like' gods ? As far as I know, the Guineans worship the mother-goddess and practice matriarchy, while the Bantu and Sudanic traditional religions involve a `Siva-like' god and are male-dominated societies. Do you have any thougths on this ? > Many Puranas state that Siva at the creation was in the form of a red > and blue, or simply red colored boy who appeared before Brahma. In the > Brahmananda Purana it states: > > "Many years ago, Brahma desired to create a son who would > be just like him in appearance. While he was thus > pondering , > a boy suddenly appeared on his lap. The boy was partly > blue and partly red in complexion and was known as > Nilalohita (blue-red)...'Please give me a name,' said the > boy. "The word 'rud' means to cry and since you have been > crying. I give you the name of Rudra," said Brahma." Your nice quote proves what has been evident all along. The identification of Rudra with Siva was made in an attempt to subsume the non-Aryan gods into the Aryan pantheon. This identification is highly ddubious, and the attempt failed. From the above quote we see that Rudra was blue-red, the Tibetic Siva white and the Old Dravidian Shiva black. They were separate gods. Samar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 13:44:46 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 05:44:46 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044892.23782.13317745830236623549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >>From my understanding, S. Palaniappan stated that "Arya" was >> sometimes used in Tamil texts to refer to Sanskrit. He did not >> mention anything approaching the use of the term for the family >> of Indo-Aryan languages (or some close facsimile). Chris Fernandez pointed out: * No. He said, "There is ample evidence that Arya was a * name for Sanskrit and its derivates." Again, Paul Manansala writes: >So the term Arya applied also to Tamil and other Dravidian languages, >since these were also considered as descending from Sanskrit? Not so, according to S. Palaniappan. Let us check his original posting on Kak again: "This is absolutely not true. There is ample evidence that Arya was a name for Sanskrit and its derivates. Consider the following tEvAram line (6th or 7th century AD) from a hymn by Saint Appar. Ariyam tamizOTu icai An2anan2 (tEv.5.18.3.1) Here Ziva is praised as one who became music with Arya, and Tamil". As you can see, Saint Appar clearly distinguishes between Tamil and Aryan. Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 14:15:45 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 06:15:45 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044896.23782.15722447707339965109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Friends, There are tons of references in Old Tamil Sangam texts and those succeeding them where Tamil's distinction from Sanskrit is emphasized. To add to Dr. Palaniappan's Appar quote, lete me cite another from Appar (Saint TirunAvukkaracar, 6-7th century) "Ariyan2 kaNTAy; tamizan2 kaNTaay!" - appar tEvAram Translation: Lord "Siva is Aryan as well as Tamilian. More later, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------------- Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >>From my understanding, S. Palaniappan stated that "Arya" was >> sometimes used in Tamil texts to refer to Sanskrit. He did not >> mention anything approaching the use of the term for the family >> of Indo-Aryan languages (or some close facsimile). Chris Fernandez pointed out: * No. He said, "There is ample evidence that Arya was a * name for Sanskrit and its derivates." Again, Paul Manansala writes: >So the term Arya applied also to Tamil and other Dravidian languages, >since these were also considered as descending from Sanskrit? Not so, according to S. Palaniappan. Let us check his original posting on Kak again: "This is absolutely not true. There is ample evidence that Arya was a name for Sanskrit and its derivates. Consider the following tEvAram line (6th or 7th century AD) from a hymn by Saint Appar. Ariyam tamizOTu icai An2anan2 (tEv.5.18.3.1) Here Ziva is praised as one who became music with Arya, and Tamil". As you can see, Saint Appar clearly distinguishes between Tamil and Aryan. Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 14:27:06 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 06:27:06 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044899.23782.4523252039131612033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> P. K. Manansala wrote: >So the term Arya applied also to Tamil and other Dravidian languages, >since these were also considered as descending from Sanskrit? As my interest is mainly pre-British period Tamil texts, I see none of those Tamil texts claiming that Tamil is derived from Sanskrit. In fact, they say that Tamil is distinct from Sanskrit. Since "Dravidian" comes from the term "Tamizh", I am curious of any old author saying that Tamil comes from Sanskrit. Any references? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 15:06:04 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 07:06:04 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227044903.23782.1980236515769881287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology members, Does the Sri Parvatam in the Southwest corner or Nagarjunakonda in the Northeast corner of the mountain range in AP have any inscriptions saying that grammar was taught there? Any texts or Chinese pilgrim say that? I do not know anything pointing to grammatical tradition in Nagarjunakonda or Sri Sailam. Malaya parvata, one of the kulaparvatas of India, has a long tradition of preserving and teaching grammar attested in texts for 2000 years. Thanks for any AP data, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From galewicz at VELA.FILG.UJ.EDU.PL Mon Jan 11 07:07:58 1999 From: galewicz at VELA.FILG.UJ.EDU.PL (Cezary Galewicz) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 08:07:58 +0100 Subject: SAyaNa & MAdhava Message-ID: <161227044872.23782.15932675212659396562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone help me with a good reference to 14 -century SAyaNa and his brother(?) MAdhava , their relation, any information concerning their historical setting and whatever could be usefull when evaluating SAyaNa's preface to his (?) commentary on RV. What is of interest to me in particular is the following: 1) Were SAyaNa and MAdhava realy brothers ? 2) What is the source of our knowledge concerning S &/or M serving as ministers on Vijayanagara courts of Bukka I & Harihara II 3) How can one understand the very beginning of S's Preface whare it is said that it is MAdhava who is going to explain (vedArtham vaktum) the aim/meaning of the Veda 4) If S was influenced by his brother's teachings can one look on supposedly PM ideas introduced along with Jaimini sutras as tainted by Vedantic thought? 4) Could there be any possibility of an influence of another type of ideas on SAyaNa through his brother holding the post of the Head of SmArta MaTh at ZRNgeri Thank You in Advance Cezary Galewicz Institute of Oriental Philology Jagiellonian University Krakow, Poland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 16:13:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 08:13:07 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044913.23782.866919607495597728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> P. K. Manansala writes: <<< Is the sole evidence that Mr. Palaniappan presents that Tamils classified "Sanskrit and its derivates" (from which I presume he means Indo-Aryan languages) as "Arya?" >>> This is NOT one, isolated, stray occurence. There are many more, Paul. I gave you one more this morning from Appar calling "Siva as Tamilian and Aryan. Whenever Aryan comes in Old Sangam Tamil texts, it refers to IA speakers. Check any Sangam text. I see you often write that Tamil is considered an Aryan language or Sanskrit's derivative. There is simply no evidence for this in Old Tamil texts. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Jan 11 16:32:12 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 08:32:12 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044908.23782.2143896566618155243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > There are many instances where "Siva is described > as red or golden in both Tamil and Sanskrit texts. > Usually a brownish-yellow color in Sanskrit that is often translated in English as "tawny." I think though that most see the major manifestations of Siva as rooted in similar IVC deities. So the idea of a Dravidian, or at least an indigenous Siva seems to be supported. Whether or not there are African influences is debatable. Mr. Hubey seems to have explored such possible relationships. The idea of Tantrism having at least some roots in Mahacina (Tibet, Assam, Burma, China?) has also been explored. There are quite a bit of Sanskrit references to the importance of Mahacina in the development of Tantrism although I don't have any references handy at the moment. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jan 11 13:33:27 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 08:33:27 -0500 Subject: 90:98 vs 56:64-97 In-Reply-To: <199901110904.DAA19426@dune.artic.edu> Message-ID: <161227044890.23782.8367971012724820000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems the list is degrading to political discussion and to postings that are of little relevance to the academic discussion that it aims to purport. Can the participants restrain from getting into political and social topics, which are digressions and invite wide divergence of political views? Just a request for everyone's consideration.. - BM On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Michael Rabe wrote: > Editorial in today's New York Times, by "a Hindu writer who lives in New > York," and forwarded, FYI, on grounds of the Academic Fair Use, enshrined > in US Law: > > January 11, 1999 > India Steps Up Anti-Christian Violence > By TUNKA VARADARAJAN > [http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/oped/11tunk.html] > On Christmas Day a school run by Christians was burned > down by arsonists. Another school nearby was demolished by a mob. In a > separate incident, a church was stoned. Several women hiding inside were > injured, as were the nuns who sought to shield them. > > This happened a month after a Roman Catholic priest was > murdered and religious fanatics vowed to turn an entire district into a > "Christian-free zone." In keeping with this promise, a chapel was set on > fire. Elsewhere, armed men broke into a Catholic convent and assaulted two > nuns inside, and another Catholic priest was shot dead. > > This is only a partial list of crimes that all occurred in > India, where fanatics from the far right of the Hindu nationalist spectrum > have formed shadowy "armies" intent on ridding the country of its religious > minorities and of turning it into a Hindu state. > > So consumed are they by hatred of "foreign" religions that > one of their leaders -- Ashok Singhal of the World Hindu Council -- said > recently that the award of the Nobel Prize for economics to Amartya Sen, > the renowned Indian economist, was evidence of a "Christian conspiracy to > propagate their religion and wipe out Hinduism from the country." > > What was the basis for such a preposterous statement? Simply > that Mr. Sen (who happens to be Hindu) has written that India's development > and prosperity depend on mass literacy. Mr. Sen's true purpose, the Hindu > fanatics say, is to enable Christian missionaries to establish educational > institutions across the country, using schools as Trojan Horses from which > to unleash evangelist hordes. > > What we are witnessing in India is the growth of a sort of > Hindu Taliban movement. Although it is difficult to gauge the numbers > accurately, the various extremist groups are believed to have tens of > thousands of supporters. In recent years, Muslims have been their principal > victims. Christians, who constitute 2.4 percent of the population -- 23 > million people-- had, on the whole, been left alone. But that has now > changed. Emboldened by the first ever Hindu nationalist Government in New > Delhi, extremist groups now feel they have friends in high places. In > addition, the Government, which has suffered a series of defeats in recent > provincial elections, is too concerned with its own survival to rein them > in. > > According to the United Christian Forum for Human Rights, an > umbrella group that brings together leaders from the various Christian > denominations in India, 90 separate acts of violence were committed against > Christians or Christian churches in 1998. There were only 53 attacks from > 1964 to 1997. > > Unlike Muslim, Christian or Jewish fundamentalists, who > generally base their radicalism in a sacred text, Hindu fundamentalists > have no central text to appeal to. As a result, they have resorted to > conflating Hinduism with "Indianness," giving their religious bigotry a > nationalist and temporal complexion. > > They have constructed a Manichaean world in which Hindus are > "true" Indians and all others are "outsiders." The formulation is curious > since Islam came to India about 1,200 years ago, and Christianity arrived > even earlier. Some historians date India's Christian roots to the first > century A.D. > > But the current battle is not over the historical record. It > is a battle for India's soul. > > The secular state is not about to crumble overnight. What is > imperiled, however, is India's tolerant, secular civilization. > > Tunku Varadarajan, a Hindu, is a writer based in New York. > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 16:36:51 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 08:36:51 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044915.23782.6439342891646713824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Well this would be the first time then that I have heard that Tamils had anything similar to a classification approaching the Arya-Dravidian division. However, I wonder it the term "arya" here is not referring to meter rather than language. >>> Tamil meters are akaval, veNpA, viruttam, tAzicai, cintu, kalittuRai and so on. The arya in Appar quotes (2 were provided) does not refer to any meter/metrics (Tevaram is not a grammar, you see) Tamil literature does not know of any Arya meter. Aryan in Tamil denotes IA speakers. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Jan 11 16:36:57 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 08:36:57 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044910.23782.9372332444826968342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Christopher Fernandez wrote: > > Here Ziva is praised as one who became music with Arya, and Tamil". > > As you can see, Saint Appar clearly distinguishes between > Tamil and Aryan. > Well this would be the first time then that I have heard that Tamils had anything similar to a classification approaching the Arya-Dravidian division. However, I wonder it the term "arya" here is not referring to meter rather than language. Is the sole evidence that Mr. Palaniappan presents that Tamils classified "Sanskrit and its derivates" (from which I presume he means Indo-Aryan languages) as "Arya?" Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From partha at CAPITAL.NET Mon Jan 11 14:03:27 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 09:03:27 -0500 Subject: The game of non-politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044894.23782.4153630991135378377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It seems the list is degrading to political discussion and >to postings that are of little relevance to the academic discussion >that it aims to purport. Can the participants restrain from >getting into political and social topics, which are digressions >and invite wide divergence of political views? >Just a request for everyone's consideration.. > >- BM ___________ If anything is degrading, it is the personal namecalling and disrespectful language by some listmembers. Political discussions based on personal respect and mutual sharing of opinions does not diminish merits of scholars or scholarly discourse. The boundary between academic and political discourse is often artificial and purposefully retained by a certain variety of "non-political" scholars who only emphasize an "apolitical" cure-all when an all-too-well-known game of politics of non-politics is exposed. Of course, there is a genuine group of academic scholars that consciously decides not to get into any political debate, left or right, and we do respect their decision. -Partha From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 17:07:54 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 09:07:54 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044922.23782.18119082304625155359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> P. K. Manansala writes: <<< The idea of Tantrism having at least some roots in Mahacina (Tibet, Assam, Burma, China?) has also been explored. There are quite a bit of Sanskrit references to the importance of Mahacina in the development of Tantrism although I don't have any references handy at the moment. >>> Have not seen Hubey's writing on African "Siva yet. Where is it done? During what centuries, do we have "Siva from Tibet? Want to read on Tibetan "Siva as well. References please. Tirumantiram is one of the earliest Tantras from India. Dated to 5th century AD. Tantrayana is often called Mantrayana. Vajrabodhi in Seventh century AD set sail from Kanchi to Java and China to teach Tantrayana. He was from Malaya/Potalaka parvata. Not even 1% of pre-10th century Tamil literature is available in English yet. When they do, lot of things about ancient India will become clearer. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU Mon Jan 11 14:46:50 1999 From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph G. Walser) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 09:46:50 -0500 Subject: Nagarjuna inscription Message-ID: <161227044900.23782.1510919786885998235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone out there point me in the direction of any articles about or relating to the inscription from Jaggayyapeta containing Nagarjuna's name? I am interested particularly in any discussions of its date. Thanks Joseph Walser Dept. of Comparative Religion Tufts University Medford, MA. (617) 627-2322 fax: (617) 627-3191 From umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Mon Jan 11 16:08:11 1999 From: umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (Kristen Hardy) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 10:08:11 -0600 Subject: ahi.msaa in Hindu texts Message-ID: <161227044911.23782.15762095970423907147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List-Members, Could anyone on the list advise me as to when the term "ahi.msaa" first came to be used in orthodox Hindu literature? Does the word exist in the Vedic sa.mhitaas (and if so, in what context)? Thanks in advance, Kristen Hardy, (student of Religion and Sanskrit), University of Manitoba umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Jan 11 15:13:18 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 10:13:18 -0500 Subject: Question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044905.23782.18126851043101264358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Folks, A student of mine wishes to read in English translations Hindu philosophical texts which reject Buddhist doctrines. I can think of a few such texts, e.g. zlokavaarttika, zaankarabhaa.sya on Brahmasuutras, Nyaayamanjarii. These are available in English translation. I was wondering if there is an English translation of discussion of Udayana's Atmatattvaviveka. That would be a great text to read. Any suggestions? I have currently asked this student to read D.N. Shastri's "Critique of Indian Realism". All the best, Madhav Deshpande From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 18:30:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 10:30:29 -0800 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti Message-ID: <161227044932.23782.5485686806357336487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Pongal comes from the Tamil noun "pongu" (to overflow) > This is what we do while cooking Pongal outdoors. AaNDaaL refers to preparations for Pongal day. I have to check the exact lines. pongal < Ta. verb 'pongu' tOcai < Ta. verb 'tOy' (Consider tOccal/tOyttal) uppumA = Ta. uppu + mA(vu) iTli < iTTaLi = iTTu + aLi (Each session is called IiTu) Does vaTai come from vaTu? Like koTuppatu > koTai, aTuvatu > aTai. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 18:32:16 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 10:32:16 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044934.23782.2306874815861428786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> << Brihadnila Tantra Yoni Tantra >> Are these post 12th century AD? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 18:41:41 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 10:41:41 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044936.23782.4114934367725147751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Tamil literature does not know of any Arya meter. P. Manansala writes: *Not even of Arya meter used with Sanskrit? Yes, you are correct in this regard. > >> Aryan in Tamil denotes IA speakers. > P. Manansala writes: *Do you come to this conclusion based on the two quotes thus far *presented? This point was explained few times here: Not only on the two quotes, Tamil literature has many many instances where Aryan2 means IA speakers and it is exclusively so in Sangam texts. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 18:49:55 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 10:49:55 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044938.23782.17835540165850290747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > P. K. Manansala writes: > <<< > The idea of Tantrism having at least some roots in Mahacina (Tibet, > Assam, Burma, China?) has also been explored. There are quite a bit of > Sanskrit references to the importance of Mahacina in the development > of Tantrism although I don't have any references handy at the moment. > >>> N. Ganesan wrote a reply: > > During what centuries, do we have "Siva from Tibet? > Want to read on Tibetan "Siva as well. References please. > > Tirumantiram is one of the earliest Tantras from India. > Dated to 5th century AD. Tantrayana is often called > Mantrayana. > > Vajrabodhi in Seventh century AD set sail from Kanchi > to Java and China to teach Tantrayana. He was > from Malaya/Potalaka parvata. > P. K. Manansala writes: << Information flowed in more than one direction. There are also numerous other traditions that must be taken into account. For example, the sources regarding Mahacina and other regions. >> Information can flow in any direction. But, look at the dates of Tirumantiram and Vajrabodhi. Do we have yonitantra/brhadnIlatantra that old? Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Jan 11 18:58:19 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 10:58:19 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044926.23782.10184047522154683433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > P. K. Manansala writes: > <<< > The idea of Tantrism having at least some roots in Mahacina (Tibet, > Assam, Burma, China?) has also been explored. There are quite a bit of > Sanskrit references to the importance of Mahacina in the development > of Tantrism although I don't have any references handy at the moment. > >>> > > Have not seen Hubey's writing on African "Siva yet. > Where is it done? > > During what centuries, do we have "Siva from Tibet? > Want to read on Tibetan "Siva as well. References please. I was referring specifically to Tantrism rather than Siva. I have to stop by the library for references, but a few sources on Mahacina are: Brihadnila Tantra Yoni Tantra I think the evidence suggests Siva is a composite god based on numerous traditions. There is not one single tradition, IVC or otherwise, that accounts for all the manifestations of Siva. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Jan 11 19:01:04 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 11:01:04 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044928.23782.2111076298557263870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > P. K. Manansala writes: > <<< > The idea of Tantrism having at least some roots in Mahacina (Tibet, > Assam, Burma, China?) has also been explored. There are quite a bit of > Sanskrit references to the importance of Mahacina in the development > of Tantrism although I don't have any references handy at the moment. > >>> > > Have not seen Hubey's writing on African "Siva yet. > Where is it done? No, but Hubey has wrote here on possible relationships between Dravidians and Africans. > > During what centuries, do we have "Siva from Tibet? > Want to read on Tibetan "Siva as well. References please. > > Tirumantiram is one of the earliest Tantras from India. > Dated to 5th century AD. Tantrayana is often called > Mantrayana. > > Vajrabodhi in Seventh century AD set sail from Kanchi > to Java and China to teach Tantrayana. He was > from Malaya/Potalaka parvata. > Information flowed in more than one direction. There are also numerous other traditions that must be taken into account. For example, the sources regarding Mahacina and other regions. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Jan 11 19:03:05 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 11:03:05 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044930.23782.13846987590373520650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > <<< > Well this would be the first time then that I have heard that Tamils > had anything similar to a classification approaching the > Arya-Dravidian division. However, I wonder it the term "arya" > here is not referring to meter rather than language. > >>> > > Tamil meters are akaval, veNpA, viruttam, tAzicai, cintu, kalittuRai > and so on. The arya in Appar quotes (2 were provided) does > not refer to any meter/metrics (Tevaram is not a grammar, you see) > > Tamil literature does not know of any Arya meter. Not even of Arya meter used with Sanskrit? > > Aryan in Tamil denotes IA speakers. > Do you come to this conclusion based on the two quotes thus far presented? What I mean, are there any Tamil linguistic works that clearly classify IA (not just Sanskrit) as opposed to non-IA languages in India? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala > N. Ganesan > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From a9607945 at UNET.UNIVIE.AC.AT Mon Jan 11 10:12:23 1999 From: a9607945 at UNET.UNIVIE.AC.AT (nathalie Pernstich) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 11:12:23 +0100 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044884.23782.14571186907128492019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The burning sari scene, apart from reminding of dowry death methods, is a trial by fire of Radha and all the movie's issues. And of course Radha survives her 'trial by fire', thereby proving purity of heart and all that; otherwise the last scene would -er- 'backfire' on the whole film. ---------- > Von: Michael Rabe > An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Betreff: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ > Datum: Montag, 11. Januar 1999 10:26 > > From: "Andrew" > To: > Subject: fire > Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:24:30 -0600 > > HI, > to my amazed joy, "Fire" was available at local chain vid store and we > watched it last night. > > As a contemporary movie dealing with difficult problems of tradition and > modernity (questions I've been thinking about for Art Journal), I think > "Fire" is excellent. Except for the ending, which seemed to conform to > Bollywood formula that someone must die for a problem to be resolved (and I > confess I don't really know that much about Bollywood movies), the movie > dealt with complexities in a sophisticated manner. Artists talk about such > complexities of contemporary and tradition, but few confront the issue head > on effectively (not an easy task afterall). > Maybe the lesbianism is simplified (I've not followed the controversy, is > that what people tend to be upset about-- that it showed lesbianism?). But > the only artist well-known that deals with such an issue (gay) that I am > aware of is Bhupen Khakhar, so it is not an openly discussed issue. There > are NRI groups more openly gay, but obviously that is a different situation > than in India. However, many people in India don't think of Bhupen as 'gay > artist', simply as a famous artist. > The tension of tradition and contemporary makes Fire important to me. > When Sita said (something like) "I have a button in me called tradition and > I can push that button and become traditional...." even when the tradition > (fasting for a worthless husband) had no meaning, I thought that was the > main issue. > So, Mike, summarize the debate for me please. I assume the > fundamentalist Hindu voice simply feels threatened by the movie. > > Andre > *************** > Andrew: > According to the _IndiaToday_ article I quoted yesterday, Bal > Thackeray [simply] needed a new issue to enflame his Sainik partisans, > following the BJP Central Govt decision to permit the Pakistan Cricket Team > to tour India for a series of tests, scheduled to start shortly. The rest > is history in the making...stay tuned. > > Michael Rabe > SXU & SAIC > > replying to: > Andrew Cohen, Ph.D. [University of Chicago] > Dept of Art > University of Central Arkansas > Conway, AR 72032 From clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jan 11 16:56:09 1999 From: clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Carlos Lopez) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 11:56:09 -0500 Subject: ahi.msaa in Hindu texts In-Reply-To: <199901111608.KAA03651@electra.cc.umanitoba.ca> Message-ID: <161227044919.23782.8988961949226492858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hanns Peter Schmidt, THe Origin of AhiMsA. Melanges d'Indianism a la memoire de Louis Renou. Paris 1980 AhiMsA and Rebirth' in Inside the Texts, Beyond the Texts: New approaches to the study of the Veda,' M. Witzel, editor, 1997 > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf > Of Kristen > Hardy > Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 11:08 AM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: ahi.msaa in Hindu texts > > > Dear List-Members, > > Could anyone on the list advise me as to when the > term "ahi.msaa" > first came to be used in orthodox Hindu literature? Does the > word exist in the > Vedic sa.mhitaas (and if so, in what context)? > > Thanks in advance, > > Kristen Hardy, > (student of Religion and Sanskrit), > University of Manitoba > > umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca > From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Mon Jan 11 07:11:25 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 12:11:25 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990110231751.4979.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044869.23782.9933247846774247436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I know you mentioned that Chandragomin visited dhAnyakataka. What you failed to mention is that it is in the telugu region - a very significant factor as far as the location of "parvata" is concerned. regards, sarma. At 03:17 PM 1/10/99 PST, you wrote: >Mr. D.V.N. Sarma writes: >*In my next post I will locate dhAnyakaTaka which chandragomin visited >*in the telugu country (which fact none of the previous postings in >* this thread bothered to mention). > > This is not correct, I am afraid. Taranatha saying "After visiting > DhanyakaTaka, Candragomin settled in Potalaka of the > Malaya mountain" was posted two days ago. It was posted > in the writeups with the title "where was Panini inspired?" > also long ago. > > Regards > N. Ganesan >----------------------------- > > Two days ago, N. Ganesan posted: ><<< >.... >Taaraanaatha, the Tibetan lama, says that after >CandragomI prayed to Tara and Avalokitezvara in >DhanyakaTaka and building a hundred temples for >^^^^^^^^^^^^ >each of them, he goes to settle down Potalka mount. >Taranatha's history of Buddhism, p. 202ff. >"In the DhAnyakaTaka caitya there, he [=CandragomI] worshipped >TArA and Arya Avalokitezvara and built a hundred >temples for each of them. He went to the >Potala hill and is still living there without >renouncing his mortal body". > > Candragomin who saved Mahabhasya tradition >from extinction settled in Potalaka in the > deep South, according to Taaraanaatha (1600 AD). >This is consistent with the Tamil >tradition (from 11th century onwards) that >Siddhas' residence par excellence >is Potiyil/Potikai mountain. > >Ptolomy calls Potikai(Potiyil) Mountain >as Bettigo. Mahabhaarata vanaparvan has Agastya >in the Malaya mountain. Dandin calls Potiyil >as the Southern mountain(dakSiNAdri). >Dandin's usage parallels with >the earlier Tamil tradition from Sangam era >onwards that Malaya is THE Southern >mountain. PuRanaanUru and Cilappatikaaram >refers to Himalayas and Potiyil (Malaya) >mountains in the same line. They are >the cultural symbols of North and South >in early Tamil literature. > >Candragomin, who saved the Mahabhasya tradition from >extinction went and settled down at the Mount Potalaka. >He is still living there, according to Taranatha. >>>> > > > > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From mgansten at SBBS.SE Mon Jan 11 11:16:39 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 12:16:39 +0100 Subject: Consciousness in visishtadvaita Message-ID: <161227044886.23782.6444234695147213460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I recently posted the query below to RISA-L, with no response whatsoever; I hope to have better luck on this list. Apologies to those who have seen the post already. * * * * * * * * * * Here is a question for any visishtadvaita experts in our ranks: while reading van Buitenen's translation of Ramanuja's Vedarthasamgraha just now, I was somewhat surprised by the following note (p. 186, n. 36): "jnanasvarupamityetavannirdesyam cannot be taken to mean that the atman *is* pure knowledge, but that the knowledge characteristic for the atman is a svarupanirupanadharma 'an attribute describing the proper form' ... the tenet that jnana is an attribute, not the essence, is fundamental to R.'s doctrine." >?From my reading (though not recent) of Chari's summary of Desika's Tattvamuktakalapa, I seem to recall a doctrine of two kinds of jnana: essential consciousness (svarupajnana) and attributive consciousness (dharmabhutajnana), the first being the actual substance of the atman, and the second, its attribute. These were likened to a flame and its radiance, respectively. I also have a faint memory of reading something similar in the Yatindramatadipika. So my question is: have I misunderstood Chari's (or Desika's) intentions in making consciousness the substance of the atman, or is this a post-Ramanuja doctrine of visishtadvaita, or is van Buitenen just a little rash in completely denying jnana the role of a substance/essence? Many thanks in advance, Martin Gansten From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Mon Jan 11 17:43:17 1999 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 12:43:17 -0500 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti In-Reply-To: <19990109170317.23426.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044924.23782.9247444854990945875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I changed the subject line in the hope of eliciting more responses. A query about the social/culinary niche and etymology of "pongal" resulted in the tracing of the word to "pongu". [see below] I was hoping for rather more resolution; but perhaps you could take it further from here--e.g., does the word "pongu" or roots occur in other southern languages? In general, is it the sweet, or savoury pongal that is the default form? When I asked friends from different parts of southern India (Kerala, SW Karnataka, Andhra), the response was that they don't make it in those regions. They did not clarify whether they mean the sweet or savoury form. Perhaps it is called something else in languages other than Tamil. If so, was the word "pongal" new in Tamil? what is the earliest reference to it in Tamil? I came to this group also because some web-surfing revealed that the Pongal festival (Makara Sankranti in most parts of India) is celebrated in parts of Orissa, populated by upto 40% tribal people, in ways similar to Tamil Nadu. Apart from being a time to clean houses and build new (mud) stoves, they apparently make "makar chaula" made from rice, green gram, jaggery and all the goodies that go into sweet pongal. Is this likely to be a remnant of an old (pre-Aryan??) custom or, as the website suggests, a consequence of the "Hinduisation" of the tribals? [Apparently Assam celebrates this occasion as "Bhogaali Bihu", a festival of food/harvest; western states --Maharashtra, Rajasthan, Gujarat-- as a kite festival; the Rajasthan festivity includes making a "khichree] These are intriguing snippets, and I wonder whether anyone can throw light on any of this? --Geeta On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Pongal comes from the Tamil noun "pongu" (to overflow) > This is what we do while cooking Pongal outdoors. In response to my question > > suggested by 'khichri'. I went out on a limb to suggest that pongal, at > least in the Tamil context, also occupies a different culinary/cultural > niche related to its association with the harvest festival. > > Now I come to this group to ask: is this even remotely true? what do we > know about the history of the word 'pongal' (in Tamil and in other > southern languages) and its association with the festival (in Tamil > nadu, but not in other parts of southern India?)? > From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Jan 11 22:44:07 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 12:44:07 -1000 Subject: request for reading literature. In-Reply-To: <19990111222120.21196.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044950.23782.16494068752512103871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > On 28 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > >> Could someone please suggest an old Tamilian/Dravidian scripture > >> that talks of the flight from the North to the South > >> after the "Aryan invasion". I > > N. S. Raja replied: > *There isn't any such traditional literature > *or belief. > > Please check puRanAnURu, a Tamil sangam text. There is > a poem on tuvarApati vEL. (Dvarasamudhram in Karnataka?) > The poet praises him as a Vellala Chief who moved southward > from Dwaraka, about 40+ generations ago. The medieval > commentator says Vellalas moved from Dwaraka of Krishna > and the expedition was led by the Sage Agastya. This doesn't sound like a "flight from the North to the South" -- which is what the original question asked about -- does it? Since you apparently have access to the above text, could you please post the poem? Then we can judge better. As I mentioned before, there isn't a "traditional belief" among Tamilians that they migrated from the north. While, on the contrary, by the 3rd or 4th grade, every Tamil kid has heard of the legend of ancient Tamil "sangams" and of "Southern Madurai" which was swallowed up by the sea. [Incidentally, according to legend, Dwaraka was also swallowed up by the sea. And "Madurai" sounds like the Tamil equivalent of "Mathura", which is also associated with Krishna. Hmmm... interesting...] Of course, according to legend, the sage Agastya is himself supposed to have come from the north (and never gone back). Regards, Raja. From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Mon Jan 11 19:01:16 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 14:01:16 -0500 Subject: "Hindu writer who lives in New York" Message-ID: <161227044972.23782.1320189497342811421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wonder if "a Hindu writer who lives in New York" has the same ring to it as Mr. So and So, professor of Theology, or Dr. So and So of Pathology etc. What qualification is " a Hindu writer" ? Is it the same as Russell Baker, the White columnist, or Mr. A.M. Rosenthal, the Jewish writer ? Are we to assume that the article is impartial just because it has been written by a "Hindu writer" ? Probably just the same as Mr. Rosenthal writing on Saddam Hussein. Or is it ? Am I being picky here ? Ashish Chandra -----Original Message----- From: Michael Rabe [SMTP:mrabe at ARTIC.EDU] Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 4:04 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: 90:98 vs 56:64-97 Editorial in today's New York Times, by "a Hindu writer who lives in New York," and forwarded, FYI, on grounds of the Academic Fair Use, enshrined in US Law: January 11, 1999 India Steps Up Anti-Christian Violence By TUNKA VARADARAJAN [http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/oped/11tunk.html] [...deleted] From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Mon Jan 11 19:03:39 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 14:03:39 -0500 Subject: 'sari' (Attn: H M Hubey) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19990108175506.00695ad8@mail.rz.uni-sb.de> Message-ID: <161227044874.23782.3883264531057488745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Narahari Rao wrote: > What is the nature of evidence for this kind of assertions? Is it a > conjecture or are there some kind of empirical work done on these sorts of > questions? How could one investigate whether Manu's rules are followed in a > milieu where people haven't heard of such texts? There may be some way of > showing that Smriti texts are followed in a milieu where they are not known. > But I am curious about the method. This is evident from the accounts of travellers who visited India, and from the other law-books, which state that any laws opposed to Manu are automatically invalid. As per methods, one need only go to any rural settlement in an Orthodox Vaishnavite region and see that the village elders follow Manu's laws. Elphinstone (Colonial Era) writes that the Manu Smrti was generally followed with local variations as the law-book of India in his `History of India', so we know that they were in general force then in rural regions. Shaivites have their own laws however. As for the people not knowing Manu Smrti, this was not necessary; only the village elders needed to know about it, the rest simply accepted the laws as God-given. It is a stated aim of the Sangh Parivar to re-impose the laws of Manu in the proposed Ram-rajya or Hindu State, and the HSC has only the Manu Smrti at its wev-site. From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Mon Jan 11 19:16:38 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 14:16:38 -0500 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: <3697EE36.D35B75CA@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227044877.23782.5313531073039435728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote in reply to the 2-Siva theory, > Among Siva's dark manifestations are > Mahakala "The Great Dark One," Asitanga "black-limbed," Nilalohita > "blue-red" and Babhru "brown." Thanks, Paul. Could there be any connection between these manifestations and African `Siva-like' gods ? As far as I know, the Guineans worship the mother-goddess and practice matriarchy, while the Bantu and Sudanic traditional religions involve a `Siva-like' god and are male-dominated societies. Do you have any thougths on this ? > Many Puranas state that Siva at the creation was in the form of a red > and blue, or simply red colored boy who appeared before Brahma. In the > Brahmananda Purana it states: > > "Many years ago, Brahma desired to create a son who would > be just like him in appearance. While he was thus > pondering , > a boy suddenly appeared on his lap. The boy was partly > blue and partly red in complexion and was known as > Nilalohita (blue-red)...'Please give me a name,' said the > boy. "The word 'rud' means to cry and since you have been > crying. I give you the name of Rudra," said Brahma." Your nice quote proves what has been evident all along. The identification of Rudra with Siva was made in an attempt to subsume the non-Aryan gods into the Aryan pantheon. This identification is highly ddubious, and the attempt failed. From the above quote we see that Rudra was blue-red, the Tibetic Siva white and the Old Dravidian Shiva black. They were separate gods. Samar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 22:21:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 14:21:19 -0800 Subject: request for reading literature. Message-ID: <161227044946.23782.4329721933986418628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 28 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: >> Could someone please suggest an old Tamilian/Dravidian scripture >> that talks of the flight from the North to the South >> after the "Aryan invasion". I N. S. Raja replied: *There isn't any such traditional literature *or belief. Please check puRanAnURu, a Tamil sangam text. There is a poem on tuvarApati vEL. (Dvarasamudhram in Karnataka?) The poet praises him as a Vellala Chief who moved southward from Dwaraka, about 40+ generations ago. The medieval commentator says Vellalas moved from Dwaraka of Krishna and the expedition was led by the Sage Agastya. Also, Check the entry "Tamizh" in AbhidAna ChintAmaNi, encyclopaedia of Tamil literature, recently reprinted by Asian Educational Services, Delhi. It points to many towns and provinces (Ta. nADu) named after Northern original names. I will type in the relevant puRam, vyAkhyAnam, Ency. of TL passages in the future. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 22:44:48 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 14:44:48 -0800 Subject: A plea to Cambridge univ. press Message-ID: <161227044952.23782.7368422808028138572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists connected with Cambridge university: Please make the book, A. Parpola, Deciphering the Indus Script, 1994 available in an inexpensive, paperback edition. Right now, it is more than $100 and is beyond the reach of most Indians. If widely available at an affordable cost, this book will be a good reality check for many politically motivated, home-grown theories of Indigenous Aryans spreading out far into the West. With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 23:26:51 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 15:26:51 -0800 Subject: request for reading literature. Message-ID: <161227044958.23782.6438117823351547694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When the etymology of 1) bElUru < Cognate with Tamil vEL + Ta. Ur and 2) belagaum < Cognate with Ta. veLa + Skt. grAma was discussed, the following discussion was posted in Indology. One of the greatest Sangam poets, Kapilar sings this poem. This gist was written from memory. NaccinArkkiniyar is the medieval commentator. When I find AbhidAna chintAmaNi, I will post the entry on Tamil there. Regards, N. Ganesan >?From Indology archives: <<< On the contrary, it is believed that at least some of the Tamil VEL chieftains migrated from North India. There is a poem in PuRanAnURu - a Sangam work- sung by Kapilar. This Kapilar was a bossom friend of the vEL PAri. After the demise of PAri, Kapilar takes the two daughters of Pari into his custody, and takes them to IrungO VEL, the Lord of Thuvarai in Erumai NAdu. IrungO VEL belongs to one of the eighteen clans/septs? of the VEL community. His Erumai NAdu is identified with Mahisha Mandalam or Mysore. Thuvarai might be a fore-runner of Dvara Samudram, the later namesake. Thuvarai is said to have existed during the time of the SAta vAhanas. In this poem, Kapilar addresses thus: "If you enquire who these girls are, they are the daughters of PAri, the Great Philanthropist, of adorned elephants, the Lord of PaRambu. I am their father's friend; and these are my (adopted)children. I am a Brahmin; a poet. I have brought them to you. The VELir were born in the sacrificial pit of the Northern Rishi; they ruled over the invincible City of Thuvarai(Dwaraka) which was protected by long, huge walls inforced with copper; they were of unlimited philanthropy. You are "the" VEL among the VELir of the forty-ninth generation." NachchinArkkiniyar, in his commentary, several centuries later, mentions about a legend which says that the VELir were brought to South India by the Sage Agastya from Dwaraka, which was ruled by the "Great One of the tall crown, who covered the (entire) land", i.e., KrishNa, the incarnation of VishNu.(Nilam kadandha nedu mudi aNNal). Since there are supposed to be eighteen septs or clans or branches of the VELir, it is possible they might have settled along the way. If you draw an itinary line from the Kathiawar Peninsula and proceed along the Western Ghats towards Tamil Nadu, you will see it passes through the Chalukyan territory, the Thuvarai of IrungOVEL of Sangam age, the territory of the Hoysalas, the Tiruchi/KodumbaLur terrotory of the Irukku VEL of Medieval times, the territory of PAri and the other VeLirs of the Pandiya country, including the ThuvarApathi VEL of KaNNamangalam. ... >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Jan 12 01:31:37 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 15:31:37 -1000 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990111001851.0083ddc0@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227044970.23782.17097175290556096262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > Let us be clear about some general commonsense points. > > 1. Because of the poor means of communication in the old days, normally > any thing that travels to tamilnadu has to go either through > Andhra or Maharashtra. This means that whether it is mahAyAna or > mahAbhAshyA, normally it will be communicated to tamilnadu after it > has been established in these two regions. The chances of a jump > right from north to tamilnadu is very very unlikely. Remember > there were no aeroplanes in those days and travel was by foot or > at the most by horse drawn carriage and very few people could afford > the latter. However, sea travel was well-established even in ancient days -- which means that people could possibly have gone directly between north and south India without making an extended transit of middle India. A well-known example: the Sinhalas of Sri Lanka are said to have arrived -- by ship -- either from Orissa, or from Gujarat, or possibly both. Regards, Raja. From crlee at MAILBOX.SYR.EDU Mon Jan 11 20:31:55 1999 From: crlee at MAILBOX.SYR.EDU (christopher lee) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 15:31:55 -0500 Subject: agehananda bharati Message-ID: <161227044940.23782.2974225456335492889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I realize this is a little late, but Sue couldn't post to the list directly. Forwarded for Susan Wadley Bharati taught at Syracuse univjersity until his death from brain cancer in 1990. Our dept. library is dedicated to him and we can provide other information about his bibliography (which is on line, actually) as needed. I just saw the other note. Bharati was Austrian, definitely, and not British. His "real" name was Leopold Fisher and he grew up in Vienna. s. wadley From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 11 23:39:46 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 15:39:46 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044960.23782.14380546586070235656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > P. K. Manansala writes: > << > Information flowed in more than one direction. There are also numerous > other traditions that must be taken into account. For example, the > sources regarding Mahacina and other regions. > >> > > Information can flow in any direction. > But, look at the dates of Tirumantiram and Vajrabodhi. > Do we have yonitantra/brhadnIlatantra that old? P. K. Manansala writes: <<< What difference would it make? That would not prove origin one way or the other. Tantric tradition itself credits much knowledge as coming from Mahacina. Why would you have a hard time accepting that? >>> It makes a LOT of difference. We have in Tamil a tantra text of 3000 poems in 5th century AD. Sanskrit does have tantras. If one does not have Tantra texts from (mahA)China of comparative dates, then I have a very hard time believing what you say. That is, tantric tradition came to India (Sanskrit or Tamil) from (mahA)China. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Jan 12 00:24:21 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 16:24:21 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044956.23782.16932939475526066431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > > > P. K. Manansala writes: > << > Information flowed in more than one direction. There are also numerous > other traditions that must be taken into account. For example, the > sources regarding Mahacina and other regions. > >> > > Information can flow in any direction. > But, look at the dates of Tirumantiram and Vajrabodhi. > Do we have yonitantra/brhadnIlatantra that old? What difference would it make? That would not prove origin one way or the other. Tantric tradition itself credits much knowledge as coming from Mahacina. Why would you have a hard time accepting that? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH Mon Jan 11 16:38:44 1999 From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH (Francois Obrist) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 16:38:44 +0000 Subject: Question? Message-ID: <161227044917.23782.12574236541391344135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> AUTEUR: Udayana TITRE: ?Atmatattvaviveka of Udayana / (text and transl. with notes) Chitrarekha V. Kher and Shiv Kumar LIEU/DATE: Delhi : Eastern Book Linkers, 1987 COLLATION: 23 cm NOTE: Traduit de: ?Atma-tattva-viveka NO VTLS: 1012-57860 NO RERO: 1108684 VAUD: BCU/Dorigny La C1 Tout de bon Francois At 10:13 11.01.99 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Folks, > A student of mine wishes to read in English translations Hindu >philosophical texts which reject Buddhist doctrines. I can think of a few >such texts, e.g. zlokavaarttika, zaankarabhaa.sya on Brahmasuutras, >Nyaayamanjarii. These are available in English translation. I was >wondering if there is an English translation of discussion of Udayana's >Atmatattvaviveka. That would be a great text to read. Any suggestions? >I have currently asked this student to read D.N. Shastri's "Critique of >Indian Realism". > All the best, > Madhav Deshpande > > Francois Obrist Section de langues et civilisations orientales Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 12 01:07:32 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 17:07:32 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044964.23782.962033823066920599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *And the idea of Tantric influences from Mahacina is not what I say, * but what the Tantric texts themselves say. Dear Mr. Manansala, I would be thankful if you can cite certain quotes from tantras about Mahacina and tell me the approximate dates of the texts. Will buy those books & read them. Until then, I am rather skeptical. Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Mon Jan 11 22:10:21 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 17:10:21 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: <199901080943.OAA32077@mbg.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227044942.23782.4272330013386626668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos, in a bit of defensive revisionism, argues against the charge of Jung's nazi affiliations. >Je pense que non. Sadly, for all those so enamored of Jung, he was indeed a virulent nazi who wrote position papers for the nazis, believing that his notion of collective unconscious and the nazi aryan ideal were of the same stuff. This is not an idle charge, but well documented and well known among Jung scholars and practitioners - though, understandably, not the sort of thing they broadcast far and wide. One place to begin catching up on this is the introduction to the translation of Jung's lectures on Nietzsche's Zarathustra. The intro is written by a British Jungian therapist, who, while conceding the disturbing contents of those lectures as part of a study group meeting in the later 1930s, pleads that we not throw out the baby with the bathwater. What is more disturbing, to me, is that Bollingen Princeton Univ Press, which publishes everything else by Jung and the Eranos group in affordable, easily available editions, has made this particular book difficult to obtain. Its price was $100 when first issued, and now somewhat higher, if one can find it at all. If one examines Freud's writings on Jung, including his diary entries, one will note that even at their very first meeting, Freud was struck by Jung's antisemitism, and continuously over the course of their relationship, vainly encouraged Jung to drop it. While Freud never slept with his patients, Jung did, even though Freud also warned him against that as well. Simply put, Carl had a darker side. Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From george9252 at MSN.COM Mon Jan 11 22:33:05 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 17:33:05 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044948.23782.10104513401367027919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A "shadow," as the Jungians might say. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Lusthaus To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 5:08 PM Subject: Re: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands >Robert Zydenbos, in a bit of defensive revisionism, argues against the >charge of Jung's nazi affiliations. > >>Je pense que non. > >Sadly, for all those so enamored of Jung, he was indeed a virulent nazi who >wrote position papers for the nazis, believing that his notion of >collective unconscious and the nazi aryan ideal were of the same stuff. > >This is not an idle charge, but well documented and well known among Jung >scholars and practitioners - though, understandably, not the sort of thing >they broadcast far and wide. > >One place to begin catching up on this is the introduction to the >translation of Jung's lectures on Nietzsche's Zarathustra. The intro is >written by a British Jungian therapist, who, while conceding the disturbing >contents of those lectures as part of a study group meeting in the later >1930s, pleads that we not throw out the baby with the bathwater. > >What is more disturbing, to me, is that Bollingen Princeton Univ Press, >which publishes everything else by Jung and the Eranos group in affordable, >easily available editions, has made this particular book difficult to >obtain. Its price was $100 when first issued, and now somewhat higher, if >one can find it at all. > >If one examines Freud's writings on Jung, including his diary entries, one >will note that even at their very first meeting, Freud was struck by Jung's >antisemitism, and continuously over the course of their relationship, >vainly encouraged Jung to drop it. While Freud never slept with his >patients, Jung did, even though Freud also warned him against that as well. > >Simply put, Carl had a darker side. > > >Dan Lusthaus >Florida State University > From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Jan 12 01:38:46 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 17:38:46 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044962.23782.9394542706350966459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > > It makes a LOT of difference. We have in Tamil a tantra > text of 3000 poems in 5th century AD. Sanskrit does have > tantras. If one does not have Tantra texts from (mahA)China > of comparative dates, then I have a very hard time believing > what you say. That is, tantric tradition came to India > (Sanskrit or Tamil) from (mahA)China. Mahacina does not necessarily refer to China. However, I don't agree with your theories regarding texts. We don't even know if Tantra practices were originally written or oral traditions. We don't have Saivite texts from IVC, but there is good reason to believe a prototype of some of the main forms of Siva came from that culture. And the idea of Tantric influences from Mahacina is not what I say, but what the Tantric texts themselves say. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From shankars at SPRINT.CA Tue Jan 12 01:01:09 1999 From: shankars at SPRINT.CA (Sanjeev Shankar) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 20:01:09 -0500 Subject: A plea to Cambridge univ. press In-Reply-To: <19990111224448.20056.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044966.23782.16422148296568081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of N. > Ganesan > Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 5:45 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: A plea to Cambridge univ. press > > > this book will be a good reality check for many > politically motivated, home-grown theories of > Indigenous Aryans spreading out far into the West. How so??? Interestingly Parpola makes use of the Rg Veda and other scriptures in his attempt to decipher the IVC script as dravidian. > > With kind regards, > N. Ganesan > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Tue Jan 12 01:29:30 1999 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 20:29:30 -0500 Subject: etymology of tree name "maraam" and the geography of the maraam t ree Message-ID: <161227044968.23782.9665392828716744996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Chandrasekaran, Periannan wrote: > > Could someone provide the etymology of the word "maraam" This could be Farsi or borrowed into Farsi because the word "meram" is used in Turkish for a wooded place and I don't think it is from Turkish originally. > used very frequently in Tamil Sangam era literature > to denote the tree called "katampu" or "veN (white) katampu"? > It also seems to be referred to as "aachchaa" tree. This is also strange. Aghach, or aach means 'tree' or 'wood' in Turkic languages. > Thanks > P. Chandrasekaran -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Tue Jan 12 01:49:44 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 20:49:44 -0500 Subject: request for reading literature. Message-ID: <161227044978.23782.3314080949534268377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > On 28 Dec 1998, Ashish Chandra wrote: > >> Could someone please suggest an old Tamilian/Dravidian scripture > >> that talks of the flight from the North to the South > >> after the "Aryan invasion". I > > N. S. Raja replied: > *There isn't any such traditional literature > *or belief. > > Please check puRanAnURu, a Tamil sangam text. There is > a poem on tuvarApati vEL. (Dvarasamudhram in Karnataka?) > The poet praises him as a Vellala Chief who moved southward > from Dwaraka, about 40+ generations ago. The medieval > commentator says Vellalas moved from Dwaraka of Krishna > and the expedition was led by the Sage Agastya. This doesn't sound like a "flight from the North to the South"-which is what the original question asked about-does it? __________ Yes, that was my intent i.e. to inquire whether there is any old Tamil literature that talks of the forced flight of Dravidians from the North to the South. Thanks Ashish From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Tue Jan 12 02:13:25 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 21:13:25 -0500 Subject: A plea to Cambridge univ. press Message-ID: <161227044976.23782.4796792694993824021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists connected with Cambridge university: Please make the book, A. Parpola, Deciphering the Indus Script, 1994 available in an inexpensive, paperback edition. Right now, it is more than $100 and is beyond the reach of most Indians. If widely available at an affordable cost, this book will be a good reality check for many politically motivated, home-grown theories of Indigenous Aryans spreading out far into the West. With kind regards, N. Ganesan _________ Actually, on the contrary, Indians have grown up with the concept of Aryans coming in to India as invaders. I passed out from high school in 1991 and at least when I left India i.e. 1992, children were still being taught about the AIT as being the basis for the Aryan settlements of north India. I still clearly remember our 4th standard Geography books showing a "fair Aryan" and Dravidians. Maybe the trend is changing now, and rightly so, based on the new archaeological evidence that has been uncovered in the past 15 years. Probably someone on this list will come up with some of the books now prescribed in UP and Rajasthan and other BJP ruled states. So I guess the trend is changing. But the surprising thing is that everyone wants to assess the damage being done by these books and no one wants to talk about numerous generations of Indians brought up on the unproven idea of Aryan invasion and how it has affected us. Political motivation really ??!! WOW ! Here is an article I read in India Today relating to the SIVC. http://www.itihaas.com/ancient/indus1.html It does not attach a lot of importance to the work conducted by A.Parpola. Not that India Today is a right wing magazine or anything like that. I don't think Indians require another "expert" work on AIT. Our own homegrown people have thrust the theory far down our throats already. Interestingly, the government of the United States overruled a decision of the Immigration and Naturalization Service which had allowed an upper caste Indian to immigrate into the US (which only allowed Europeans) in the 1920's or 1930's on the ground that AIT was a theory and nothing about it (AIT) was ever proven. Interestingly, this man had been allowed to immigrate because he had claimed European lineage on the basis of AIT ! So I think we have had enough exposure. Another book, however subsidized, would not make any difference. Sincerely, Ashish From mcv at WXS.NL Mon Jan 11 22:14:59 1999 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 22:14:59 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227044944.23782.15629251869038423174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan Lusthaus wrote: >Robert Zydenbos, in a bit of defensive revisionism, argues against the >charge of Jung's nazi affiliations. > >>Je pense que non. > I think that was in answer to the question: "faut-il br?ler Dum?zil?". ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Jan 12 08:52:52 1999 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 00:52:52 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227044982.23782.7074281902023330889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:31 PM 1/10/99 -0500, Jonathan Silk wrote: >>The following should also be mentioned: >> >>Adriana Berger. Fascism and Religion in Romania (review of Eliade's >>Autobiography, vol. 2, 1988; and Ricketts' Mircea Eliade-The Romanian Roots, >>1988). >>Annals of Scholarship 1989, vol 6, N. 4: 455-465. >> >>Berger quotes British intelligence documents from 1940 that suspect Eliade >>of having Nazi connections. >.... > >I don't have the reference at hand, but I seem to recall that Ivan Strenski >has written about Eliade and about Berger's criticisms in a book on 4 >figures in Comparative Religion (all my materials are in the office -- >sorry), and he went to the trouble to check the British documents, at least >some of which -- *if* I recall correctly -- do not say what Dr Berger said >they say... > Jonathan, Would this be the book? Strenski, Ivan. Four theories of myth in twentieth-century history : Cassirer, Eliade, Levi-Strauss, and Malinowski / Ivan Strenski. 1st ed. Iowa City : University of Iowa Press, 1987. This was published in 1987, that is two years before Berger's review. Could it be another book by Strenski? Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 12 14:27:33 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 06:27:33 -0800 Subject: A plea to Cambridge univ. press Message-ID: <161227044999.23782.9096051063283519153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > this book will be a good reality check for many > politically motivated, home-grown theories of > Indigenous Aryans spreading out far into the West. <<< How so??? Interestingly Parpola makes use of the Rg Veda and other scriptures ... >>> I know Prof. Parpola's publications well. The answer is quite complex. At the very least, The book, "Deciphering the Indus script" if available widely and affordably in India, the elitist status quo and dominance will be in for a shake-up. I have tried to explain some aspects for few years now in Indology. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 12 15:33:54 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 07:33:54 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227045004.23782.8764598379851813644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I think this mode of movement is costlier than even the transport by horse (high costs of building a ship). Mostly this transport was used for business and occasionally for invasions. Use of this mode for mass scale cultural diffusion is rare. >>> Not really. The Sangam Tamil text, Pattinappaalai, atleast 2000 years old, describes many products being moved across oceans very beautifully. The Lotus sutra, probably composed in the South in 2nd century AD, describes Avalokitezvara saving sea passengers from pirates, ship wrecks, weather hazards, etc. Nagarajuna, a Southerner, tells in his Suhrllekha to his friend, SatakarNi king to worship Avalokitezvara. Satavahanas issued coins decpicting ships. CilappatikAram and Manimekalai, gret Tamil epics, talk of MaNimekalA teyvam saving sea-borne travellors. We have Tamil sounding names in distant Funan forming kingdoms in third/fourth century AD and so on. <<< The absense of mahAyAna in Sri lanka and Southeast Asia perhaps illustrates this, whereas Tibet practically has all the shades of mahAyAna eventhough the land route is difficult. >>> Not really. There was good Mahayana in Sri Lanka. We see several Avalokitezvara images in 7-8th centuries AD in Sri Lanka. They are in the mode of Pallava sculpture (cf. D. Kevorkian's works). Mahayana flourished in Abhayagiri monastery and eventually was stamped by Hinayanists. Mahayana in Sri Lanka mirrors the Bhakti movement across the sea strait, only 18 miles wide. We can see Kannaki statues, sometimes wrongly named as ArdhnArizvara from Mahayana pantheon in Abhayagiri vihAra etc., Anyone can clarly say it is Kannaki from 8th century AD of Sri Lanka. It cannot be Ardhnaari - Siva has Uma to his left, Here there is right breast. CilappatikAram says the Kannaki cut off her left breast. It is so in Sri Lankan bronzes of Kannaki (wrongly named as ArdhanAri). Kannaki has dishevelled hair, ArdhanAri does not and there are several more pointers that they are Kannaki rather than ArdhanAri. Mahayana was stamped out of Sri lanka. around 10th century. Called "vaidula" heresy, abahayagiri etc., Hindu Gods like Skanda-Murukan entered Sri Lankan Buddhism via Mahayana. Regards N. Ganesan At 03:31 PM 1/11/99 -1000, you wrote: >On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > >> Let us be clear about some general commonsense points. >> >> 1. Because of the poor means of communication in the old days, normally >> any thing that travels to tamilnadu has to go either through >> Andhra or Maharashtra. This means that whether it is mahAyAna or >> mahAbhAshyA, normally it will be communicated to tamilnadu after it >> has been established in these two regions. The chances of a jump >> right from north to tamilnadu is very very unlikely. Remember >> there were no aeroplanes in those days and travel was by foot or >> at the most by horse drawn carriage and very few people could afford >> the latter. > >However, sea travel was well-established >even in ancient days -- which means that >people could possibly have gone >directly between north and south India >without making an extended transit of >middle India. A well-known example: >the Sinhalas of Sri Lanka are said to >have arrived -- by ship -- either from >Orissa, or from Gujarat, or possibly both. > >Regards, > > >Raja. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Jan 12 02:28:06 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 07:58:06 +0530 Subject: Your observation in the debate on the concept of Mukti: Re-mailed Message-ID: <161227044974.23782.10274335575566151769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan 10, 99 If a conscious, deliberate use of strong words and an intentional activity for social reforms and wellfare, being unreal in Vedantic terminology, are accepted to go well with the state of Mukti, even a share-broker can make a claim to Mukti. KSA From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Tue Jan 12 14:06:06 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 08:06:06 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044987.23782.17019774757876494820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: jkirk at micron.net >To: >Subject: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ >Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:32:03 -0700 > >Mike, > >I would like also to say something on the list (which list? I leave it up to >you) about the movie FIRE. It was not a "lesbian movie" per se; it was not a >"romantic" movie per se; it was an interesting attempt by the director to >explore the realities of extended family social and sexual interactions. >>From what I've learned over some forty years of fieldwork, she left out A >LOT. > >Politicised lesbians get annoyed with it because, as the interview between >Mehta and a lesbian partisan indicated, for ex., they think the film >proposes that a lesbian relationship is only due to default of the male. >This position seems to assume that people must be "born" lesbian. Any other >genesis in their view would smack of fraud. >However, Freud was right when he claimed that people are basically bisexual. >How they express sexuality is the result of social conditioning and life >experience. > >Mehta eloquently defended her view of the film (in that interview) as being >about stifled emotion.......stifled either by the dictates of tradition >(fast for your husband's life;or, if you cannot have kids then sex is a >sin), or by the inconveniences of modernity (as in Sita's husband's easy >access to porn, cafe singers, etc etc.). Anyone who has spent a lot of time >on the subcontinent, especially among groups which enforce strict >proprieties on women, knows the incredible force of stifled emotions of all >kinds in the everyday lives of both women and men. > >The naive rejection by some of the public responses to this film (leaving >aside Hindu nationalist reponses) is either disingenuous or occasioned by >the fact that viewers in question don't know much if anything about South >Asian social structures and living situations. In this aspect of reception, >the film doesn't "translate" too well, though no fault of the director. >That's life. How many people were able to understand the now classic >Japanese films when they first hit our shores? > >On nit-picking about the names of her principals: I found her name choices >just fine. >The film is a study in the ironies of everyday life in this social class. >Thus, Sita in the film is rejected by HER husband too, but in an ironic >twist: because of his infidelity, not hers! Radha, like her classical >namesake, is continually separated in longing from her (not lover-) husband, >as also from her forever never-to-be-born son. (Lord Krishna, Radha's >consort, meanwhile, is often worshipped by devotees as husband, lover and >son.) The irony of Radha's situation in the film is instantly accessible >from her name. > >The final irony, which posits a possible resolution of the impossible >predicaments of the two women, is that they begin to love one another. I >think Mehta was courageous to try this out as a filmic, literary, >psychologically realistic denouement. Otherwise, as so many of us both >Indian and foreign know, in ordinary life such extended family dilemmas as >presented in the film never get resolved, or resolutions are attempted by >means more desperate than the one chosen by Mehta's heroines. Sometimes >women go mad, or commit suicide by jumping down wells, or are set fire to by >their young ambitious husbands. A rare one like Phulan Devi, commits serial >murder. > >Joanna Kirkpatrick > > From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Tue Jan 12 14:08:45 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 08:08:45 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044990.23782.7914547922775843753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:52:33 -0500 (EST) >From: Maureen Fadem >To: sasialit at listserv.rice.edu, Michael Rabe >cc: acsaa-l at ccat.sas.upenn.edu >Subject: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ > >thank you, michael, for forwarding this. excellent poem; i especially >liked the part about vultures, starvation, 'arre yaar'! :) ...i think that >stanza is possibly the one i like the most... and the poet's contrast of >pornography and rape is also poignant. oh, reminds me of things i'd say >about my own cultures...like the impeachment abomination and all of its >many splendored hypocrisies. :-) >best, >maureen. > >On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Michael Rabe wrote: > >> >Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:25:07 -0500 >> >From: Partha Banerjee >> >Subject: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ >> >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> >> >> >A little poetry on this thread might not be irrelevant after all. >> > >> >Partha >> >__________ >> > >> >Poet: Cheryl Kanekar >> >Published in AWAKENING, Mumbai, December 1998. >> >__________ >> > >> >Burning issues >> > From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Tue Jan 12 14:09:51 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 08:09:51 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044993.23782.10950997588967215713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:05:45 -0500 (EST) >From: Maureen Fadem >To: Michael Rabe >Subject: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ > >michael, in terms of this question, > >"To wit: _How, in fact, does the film end?! Is the final sequence in the >Nizamudin gardens but a ghostly after image of what might have been, or >does Radha PHYSICALLY survive the accident unscathed?_" > >...i interpreted the final scene literally, that she survives, not >unscathed, but she survives. i think the filmmaker was giving us a little >'edge of the seat' drama. first, we wonder: has radha sent sita away >because she knows she does not really have the strength to leave her >husband? then, we later see her profess her love for sita to her husband, >so there is a question answered, which is immediately followed by her >catching fire. next we see sita alone in the garden and we think, 'oh no, >she's going to think radha just couldn't make the move and really she is >dead, oh tragedy!' ... next thing we see the alive radha and the film >ends. so i think this was all basically dramatic intensity, entertainment >value at bottom. >regarding underlying meanings: a) the filmmaker does not send radha back >into the non-arms of her husband; that is an important point. b) the >filmmaker also allows radha to live thru fire, as did sita [of the >ramayana]. two things: her purity has been proven, no? just like sita. so >the filmmaker implies: she is not impure because she loves sita. two, she >allows her to live which is a sort of melodramatic way of saying, 'there >is/can be/should be hope for you, radha and for you sita,' kinda thing. > >so, my analysis of this is literal, that radha does in fact live, burned >and scarred, but she lives. my next question remains unanswered: the >filmmaker means to imply a kind of hope by keeping both women alive and >getting both of them away from their abusive/neglectful husbands. what she >and her film do not answer, is, what now? after the dramatic-viewer-'phew' >-relieved garden scene conclusion, what then? how do they live this life >and survive in the culture that [atleast in terms of gender equality] has >just been summarily abominated by the film? (abominated is too strong, >but you get my gist :) this reminds me of the scene in 'amistad' when the >'heroic british' (??) free the slaves and they all run out in high >dramatic happy form ... to where? who? how? these aspects are unconvincing >largely, i suppose. >just my thoughts, >maureen. >************************* >Maureen Ellen Fadem >fademm at castle.beaver.edu > >Do I dare >Disturb the universe? >In a minute there is time >For decisions and revisions which > a minute will reverse. > --TS Eliot > > From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Jan 12 18:11:39 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 08:11:39 -1000 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic In-Reply-To: <19990112172824.5339.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045028.23782.3225293627899583718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > In India, Persian and Arabic are given protection as > Classical languages. How? Please be specific. > It is high time Tamil is given protection in India > just like Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian. "Given protection". How? Please be specific. Regards, Raja. PS: In my opinion, the best "protection" that Tamil (or any other Indian language) could hope for would be if young people spoke it. However, as you know, Tamilians in TN often prefer English. However, it is not fashionable to point this out. There are easier targets to shoot at. From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Tue Jan 12 14:13:35 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 08:13:35 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227044995.23782.13170345965133381520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:47:59 -0500 (EST) >From: Maureen Fadem >To: Michael Rabe >Subject: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ > >i had a few thoughts on this excellent message; wonder if you'd also send >it to the author, michael? > >> >>northeast. At Smith College this fall, the South Indian students at this >> >>women's college opened their weekend with a discussion with the director >> >>and a showing of the film. > >i am glad about all the air time this film is getting, because as i have >remarked in the past, taken in total, it would be a 'landmark' event >provoking controversy in most cultures; my daughter will be previewing the >film at her college, hamilton college, this spring for their celebrate >sexuality week, along with numerous other thematically gay/lesbian films. > >> >>just represented types. . > >by "types", do we mean stereotypes? if so, i had similar thoughts, but a >minor issue, to my mind. > >> >>I know there were two scenes >> >>from Ramayana being done by different drama groups, but I do not remember >> >>if they were Sita's fire sacrifice. I need to see it again. > >yes, actually, the story --and each time sita's immolation-- is >represented at several points throughout the film, both dramatically, and >on the television numerous times. maybe overdone a bit, i am not sure? the >filmmaker uses the story as a symbol to make a very clear point that she >does not want overlooked, that is sure. > >> >> I did however,feel very impressed by the blending together >> >>different strands which I know about from my courses and research. First >> >>was the relation of the young modern couple, used to pornography, affairs, >> >>and how their arranged marriage was held up against the ideal for Sita in >> >>the Ramayana. > >yes, the filmmaker(s) took no pity on certain indian traditions, none >whatever, including arranged marriage. the affair he was having and >the kind of relationship they had made the whole thing that much uglier, >and i don't think that was accidental. mehta is heavily, *strongly* >criticizing/critiquing indian culture with this film and much as i would >criticize certain aspects of the film myself, such as i feel the film may >have gotten better reception and thus may have been a more effective tool >in the long run had certain strategies been modified, i greatly admire >this effort and feel those criticisms to be minor compared with the >relative value of such a film/such messages. > >> >>the part of the older couple there was the very complex situation of the >> >>husband, who was trying to live up to an ideal of being chaste in marriage, >> >>as prescribed by his guru, and testing himself, like Mahatma Gandhi >> >>sleeping with his niece; this is also a ideal of the Brahma Kumari >> >>organization, (for description see Alan Babb's "Redemptive Encounters- >> >>Three Modern styles in the Hindu Tradition" Oxford, l986,) and Morris >> >>Carstairs, "The Twice Born-a study of a community of High Caste Hindus" >> >> l96l which describes this doctors contact with his patients. The idea that >> >>the spiritual powers of a person can be built up by conserving sexual >> >>fluids and if they are "spilled" one loses power is very central to much >> >>Hindu mythology, and I have studied it in connection with the mythology of >> >>the goddesses. Also it seems that the wife could not have children, so the >> >>husband was taking this path. > >i also thought of gandhi but was not aware of the rest of those details... > >> >> I felt that there was almost too much symbolism once all of these >> >>things were put together, and the Lesbianism seemed just a bit gratutious; >> >>but of course, was necessary to the plot if one were not making a >> >>documentary. > >i agree about the dense symbolism -- sometimes greater subtlety can be a >much stronger tool. but i am not sure i felt the lesbianism was >gratuitous; i think it is something we are not used to seeing on film and >that maybe part of the shock factor people experience? > >michael, your message from the other evening has made me move 'god of >small things' closer to the top of my to-be-read pile. :)) >best, >maureen. > > From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Tue Jan 12 14:15:48 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 08:15:48 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ (fwd) Message-ID: <161227044997.23782.2684764178885970714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:11:06 -0500 (EST) >From: Maureen Fadem >Reply-To: Maureen Fadem >To: mrabe at artic.edu >Subject: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ (fwd) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-UIDL: b68098e3b496e3fa847878a761244d62 >Status: U > >fyi... :) > >************************* >Maureen Ellen Fadem >fademm at castle.beaver.edu > >Do I dare >Disturb the universe? >In a minute there is time >For decisions and revisions which > a minute will reverse. > --TS Eliot > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:01:36 +0000 >From: Salil Tripathi >To: Maureen Fadem , SASIALIT at LISTSERV.RICE.EDU >Subject: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ > >Maureen, > >Apropos of the "poem", here's what some folks have put up in posters in >Bombay, criticizing the Sena's cultural fascism. The poster goes somewhat >like this: > >Masjid ko toda >Cricket pitch ko khoda >Sangeet ka gala ghonta >Paintings ko jalaya >Cinema ko dabaya > >Kya, Mumbai (sic) dekhti rahegi? > >(They) destroyed a mosque >dug up a cricket pitch >strangled music >burnt paintings >Pressured a cinema hall > >Will Bombay keep watching? > >There's an interesting little tale about how the posters were made and put >up. Another time........ > >- Salil > > > From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Jan 12 18:17:28 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 08:17:28 -1000 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva In-Reply-To: <19990112171715.27407.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045031.23782.12341093912718372133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > "Siva Mahadeva, the Great God of Hinduism, has his origins > firmly rooted in India. He does NOT come from Africa, > Tibet or China. > > Tantrism also has origins from the mystic traditions > of India. Tantrism did not arrive from Tibet, Africa > or China or Arabia or whatever. N.Ganesan duking it out with Samar Abbas! I love it. :-) :-) Sort of like Prabhakaran duking it out with Ayatollah Khomeini. :-) No offence intended to any party, esp. to N. Ganesan, whose Tamil expertise I appreciate. Regards, Raja. From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 12 17:10:28 1999 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 09:10:28 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit vs Tamil Universe Message-ID: <161227045013.23782.10727897132443553048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In numerous postings to this list some scholars are passionately motivated to demonstrate that a parallel Tamil universe exists beside the Sanskrit one. But there is no need to play a game of one-upmanship here. Indic universe is large enough to accommodate both and more. This rivalry reminds me of the epic struggle between Vasistha and Visvamitra in the Veda. Hopefully, scholars on both sides of this issue will not provide fodder for those who are interested in reducing Hinduism to a minority status in India. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 12 17:17:14 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 09:17:14 -0800 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva Message-ID: <161227045017.23782.16798522625396658679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Siva Mahadeva, the Great God of Hinduism, has his origins firmly rooted in India. He does NOT come from Africa, Tibet or China. Tantrism also has origins from the mystic traditions of India. Tantrism did not arrive from Tibet, Africa or China or Arabia or whatever. More later. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 12 17:28:24 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 09:28:24 -0800 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic Message-ID: <161227045019.23782.8757520374120032292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Where does Nehru say that Persian and Arabic are part of the Indian cultural heritage? >>> In India, Persian and Arabic are given protection as Classical languages. But not Tamil!!!. Tamil has 2300 years of continuous literary tradition, its love/"interior landscape" poems/poetics is unmatched anywhere. IVC language is definitely agglutinative and most probably a Dravidian language (cf. I. Mahadevan, A. Parpola). It is high time Tamil is given protection in India just like Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian. With high regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Jan 12 17:31:44 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 09:31:44 -0800 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva Message-ID: <161227045008.23782.54524021528531462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would only add to Samar's post that the complex geometric patterns used in Tantrism are believed by some to have originated from the weaving patterns of Central Asian peoples. There introduction into Islam is often credited to Turko-Mongol peoples who migrated into Iran or other parts of the Middle East. Indeed there appearance in these regions often coincides with Turko-Mongol invasions. Even the most isolated Central Asian tribes appear to use these weaving patterns, although they are most popularly seen in the West on Afghan or Persian rugs. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala Samar Abbas wrote: > > On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > > During what centuries, do we have "Siva from Tibet? > > Want to read on Tibetan "Siva as well. References please. > > This occurred in the thread `Re. FW: Deepa Mehta's Fire'. Since the > topic has departed sufficiently from its original theme, I start a new > thread. > > Tantrism is of Tibetic origin as evident from the following. I have > given references below. All the religions of Tantrism, etc. are > derivatives of Bon, the ancient Tibetic religion. > > 1. Tantrism is referred to as `The Chinese Rites' in the Tantric texts. > > 2. The Fifth Veda fell to Tibet (story reproduced below), and thus the > people of that country are adepts at the "Rites of the 5th Veda". > (cf. Story given below). > > 3.. Siva's home is in the Himalayas, and he is white just as Tibetans > (North Mongoloids). Mt. Meru is obviously in the Himalayas, probably > near Lake Mansarovar. > > 4. Tantrism is still practiced in Tibet, where it is the national > religion. It was more of an underground witchcraft movement in India. > Orthodox Vaishnavism was not very happy with such beliefs, and in > Bengal the Tibetan Buddhists (ie. Tantrics) were crushed by the Senas. > These persons welcomed the Islamic invasion, since it led to the > destruction of Vaishnavite shrines. The Sufis further developed the > mustic Tibetic Tantrism, mixing it with Arabian alchmey and ancient > Egyprian cults (absorbed into Arab Sufism), cf. the Madari Sufists etc. > > There are thus two fountainheads of mysticism in Asia, one is Tibet, > and the other Arabia (cf. the Syrian Harran, the ancient Sabean > shrine of the Ka'aba, a representative of Saturn, the Sabean Priapus, > later absorbed into Islam). > > 5. `Parvati' the name of Shiva's wife, means `of the mountain', ie. she > came from the Himalayas. > > 6. The source of Tantrism is given by the Tantric texts themselves as > being Mahacina or Cina, ie. Tibet and the surrounding regions. As per a > well-known legend, Vasishta travelled to Tibet to learn about the lost > `Fifth Veda'. I have reproduced this story below { > Rudrayamalatantra.XVII } > { Brahmayamalatantra I-III } { Mahacinatantra } > { Taratantram (Gaudagranthamala),Ch.141 }. > > 7. Taoism in China has the conept of yin-yang, similar to the Shiva > -Shakti cult and the Adi-buddha and Adi-prajna in later Buddhism. > { `Obscure Religious Cults, S.Das Gupta, Firma KLM, 1969 3rd > ed. Calctutta, p.341 } > > 8. Goddess Uma, another manifestation of Shakti, is referred to as > Haimavati or daughter of Himavat { Kena Upanishad.III.25 } { Chandra, > Indo-Aryan Races', p.123 }. > > 9. The Siddha cult (a Hindustani alchmist cult) was, as per its own > tradition, introduced by one Taoist alchamist from China: > > There is a popular tradition that the SIddhas were a "a band of > death-defying theriacal and therapeutic alchemists indebted in all > respects to Bhoga, a pre-Christian Taoist immigrant from China, who, in > his methods of keying up the body of impure matter through `reverberation' > and `projection' to the pitch of pracitcally cancelling demise, merely > sought to promulgate the lesser athanasic precepts of Lao-tse, since the > vital objective of the Tao-Teh-King is the transfiguration of hte > immortalised ethereal body into a permanent garment of celestial virtue, > in order to fit it to associate to eternity with the Tao" > - { Das Gupta ibid, p. 193 } and > - { `The Doctrinal Culture and Tradition of the Siddhas', Dr. > V.V.Raman Sastri, in Cultural Heritage of India, Vol.II 303-319; > Ramakrishna Institute Mission of Culture } > > Tibetic alchmey mixed with Arabic-Islamic alchemy during the > golden age of Indian alchemy, 1000 AD- 1800 AD ; the Hindustani > Califate of Delhi. Free from Orthodox Vaishnavite oppression, a Hindustani > alchemy & Tantra developed and expanded rapidly, representing a mixture of > Islamic Sufic and Tibetic Tantric traditions. > > 10. One of the Tantras is called `Mahacinatantra', and the doctrines > propounded are Taoist and Tibetic Bon. > > Here is the well-known tale of Vasistha going to Tibet to learn the > Tantric rites: > > Vasishta travelled to the sea-shore (as per the Rudrayamala Tantra, this > would indicate Bengal) or the Kamakhya hills, Assam (as per the > Brahmayamala Tantra) and observed strict Yoga worship for the Devi > Buddhesvari. He did for this for a long time without any results and so > cursed the Devi. The Devi appeared and said, " he had adopted an altoghter > wrong path; her worship was unknown in the Vedas; it was known only in > the country of Mahacina; and that Vasishta would gain his object if he > received instruction from Vishnu now residing there as Buddha. There he > was surprised to find the Buddha drinking wine enjoying several women. His > doubts were soon dispelled by Buddha, who initiated him. { > Rudrayamalatantra.XVII } { Brahmayamalatantra I-III } { Mahacinatantra } { > Taratantram (Gaudagranthamala),Ch.141 }. > > As per another legend, Brahma memorized all the 5 Vedas. He taught the 5th > Veda to the Brahmans, but kept the 5th Veda (ie. the Tantras) safe for a > time when mankind was ready. Due to his arrogance, Shiva cut off his head, > and the 5th Veda then fell to TIbet, where its inhabitants took up the > study with great zeal. Thus, as per the Tantras themselves, the original > home of Tantrism is associated with Tibet. > > Here is a chart showing the Indo-Tibetic religions: > > Old Bon Tibetic Religion > / / \ \ > / Uttara Tantrism Bon Purbi (East Indic) Shaktism > Lamaism / | / \ \ > / | Bengal Assamese Orissa > Kashmir Shaivism | Tantrism Tantrism Tantrism > Tantric Islam, Nath cult etc. | \ > Vaishnava Sahajiya Kamakhya > etc. Cult etc. > > N.Ganesan wrote: > > The Tantras date to the centuries AD, and are very late. > > That does not matter. They are renditions, copies of copies etc. of > ancient texts and practices. No Vedic text is found on paper earlier than > the 11the century, since paper was introduced by the Moslems, but that > does not mean that the Vedas were composed in the Islamic era. Similarly, > these Tantras were composed in Tibet in the early centuries BC, and Tibet > is the fountainhead of Tantrism, and in fact all mystic knowledge in the > East. They were written down only much later. > > N.Ganesan wrote: > > Vajrabodhi in Seventh century AD set sail from Kanchi > > to Java and China to teach Tantrayana. He was > > from Malaya/Potalaka parvata. > > Dravidian `Tantrism' is of African Origin. The African origin of the > Old Dravidian `Black' Shiva; his affinities to the Bantu Shiva, etc. has > already been shown on this list, and there is no need to repeat. > Indeed, one may find Dravidian `voodoo' among the untouched Dravidians > living in remote areas. One should not use the word `Tantrism' for this > set of beliefs, since Tantra means 5Th Veda from Tibet. `Dravidian > religion' or Dravidian Shavism are better terms. It is independant of > Tibetic Tantrism. The practices may have been similar. Just because the > Greeks had the Dionysus and Priapus cults does not mean that they were > `Tantrics', or `Shaivites', so the occurrence of Priapus-like cults among > the Dravidians and Bantu Africans does not imply they are Tantrics. > > It is important to distinguish the White Tibetic Shiva, the Black Old > Dravidian Shiva; and the Roman Hermes, Greek Priapus and Nordic Odin; they > have no relation. These are similar gods in different religions. > > Samar From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Jan 12 17:37:31 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 09:37:31 -0800 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva Message-ID: <161227045011.23782.290610273802542855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another thing on Taoism. Even before the formal beginning of Taoism, the ideas of yin-yang and spiritual alchemy existed and are found in works like the I-ching and the book of the Yellow Emperor. By the time both these books were written these ideas were already "ancient" in Chinese culture. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Jan 12 20:07:02 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 10:07:02 -1000 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic In-Reply-To: <19990112192737.1566.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045043.23782.10201665367266565909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > When I was at Inst. of Asian studies on a visit, people told > me this that Persian, Arabic are classified as classical > languages, but not Tamil. > > I have to check where in one of the Central govt. > documents. This is shown to UN etc., to get funds. This is all too vague. Get back to us when you can be more specific. You and I are engineers, we should know how to be specific. > Hope Tamil is accepted, given protection, fostered > with funds for its growth in India. This is all bogus stuff. Nobody is holding down Tamil. A language that needs "protection" and "acceptance" is a dying language. A valuable step might be to convince people in Tamil Nadu to speak/read more Tamil and less English. However, this is very difficult (impossible) to achieve. It requires (horrors!) actually writing cool stuff in Tamil. It's easier to blame Hindi, North Indians, central government, Sanskrit, Aryans, the caste system, etc. It won't help in strengthening Tamil, but let's face it! It feels good to be paranoid. Regards, Raja. From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 12 18:11:27 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 10:11:27 -0800 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic Message-ID: <161227045025.23782.17866660812859682195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Discovery of India would be a distinct possibility. Thanks and Warm Regards. ---Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Dear Members of the Net, > > On behalf of a colleague who does not have access to the Internet, I would like > to forward the following question to the list members: > > Where does Nehru say that Persian and Arabic are part of the Indian cultural > heritage? > > (My colleague has information that Nehru says something to this effect in his > writings, but has no reference). > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no > == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Jan 12 18:52:51 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 10:52:51 -0800 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva Message-ID: <161227045021.23782.14688927131179936121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > "Siva Mahadeva, the Great God of Hinduism, has his origins > firmly rooted in India. He does NOT come from Africa, > Tibet or China. > What about the IE homeland? Since you appear to tow the AIT line then Rudra would be a Vedic Central Asian deity connected with Thor and other Indo-European storm gods? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 12 19:27:37 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 11:27:37 -0800 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic Message-ID: <161227045039.23782.6978050240971964620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > In India, Persian and Arabic are given protection as > Classical languages. How? Please be specific. > It is high time Tamil is given protection in India > just like Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian. "Given protection". How? Please be specific. ------------------------ Hi Raja, Greetings. When I was at Inst. of Asian studies on a visit, people told me this that Persian, Arabic are classified as classical languages, but not Tamil. I have to check where in one of the Central govt. documents. This is shown to UN etc., to get funds. I have a draft copy submitted to Cental Govt. to classify Tamil on par with Persian, Arabic and Sanskrit. That way, funds for research into Tamil and other Dravidian languages would be a natural byproduct. Hope Tamil is accepted, given protection, fostered with funds for its growth in India. More later, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Jan 12 20:07:48 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 12:07:48 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227045033.23782.1097215925661335804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > >> Tamil literature does not know of any Arya meter. > > P. Manansala writes: > *Not even of Arya meter used with Sanskrit? > > Yes, you are correct in this regard. > > > > >> Aryan in Tamil denotes IA speakers. > > > > P. Manansala writes: > *Do you come to this conclusion based on the two quotes thus far > *presented? > > This point was explained few times here: Not only on the > two quotes, Tamil literature has many many instances > where Aryan2 means IA speakers and it is exclusively so > in Sangam texts. > If this is true, then Tamil linguists identified IA much earlier than originally thought. Even Sir William Jones was sketchy about the relationship of Sanskrit to other Indian languages. He denied that Hindi was in any way related to Sanskrit, but otoh believed that most of what is now known as Austronesian was related to the modern Indo-European family. However, he believed that Malay, Afghan and Palavi were related to Semitic. Could you tell me which writers classfied the Indo-Aryan languages as "Arya" and which languages were included in that classification? Did they consider Tamil as closely related to other Dravidian languages? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 12 20:11:27 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 12:11:27 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227045045.23782.4035548784911449994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> General remarks. Don't have time now. Must be done for a PhD who knows Tamil, linguistics, Sanskrit extremely well. Will give some pointers in the future also. Tamil literature knows that Tamil and Sanskrit are at the fountainheads of all of India's languages, at least in 500 places in its 2300 (at a minimam) year history. It does not know Hindi because it was not there then. Malayalam did not exist, so not much talk about it also. But it clearly knows that Telugu and Kannada are highly related to it. Tamil literature even knows about today's the divisions of Central and Southern Dravidian!! For example, akanAnURu, a sangam text, says that Telugu words are too long and hard to understand (a pointer that Telugu is Central Dravidian and Tamil is South Dravidian). On the contrary, kannaDa is very close to Tamil and easily understandable, because both kannaDa and tamizh are South Dravidian. Check kalingattup paraNi (1080AD). Have not read yet Jain maNipravALa works, sure more linguistic nuggets can be unearthed. eg., mErumantara purANam. Also, my reading of Tamil is little. My profession is different. Have had the privelege to move with Tamil & Sanskrit pundits, when they came to my family or relatives, That's all. BTW, I am very skeptical of your statements like Sanskrit was borrowed into India with no Aryans moving in. Previously, you often wrote that Tamil is called Aryan language. I find no evidence for your statements. If you ask me, did they classify IA-Dravidian like in modern historical linguistics. They did not do it obviously. But they have had a grasp of it for atleast 2300 years. More later, N. Ganesan <<< If this is true, then Tamil linguists identified IA much earlier than originally thought. Even Sir William Jones was sketchy about the relationship of Sanskrit to other Indian languages. He denied that Hindi was in any way related to Sanskrit, but otoh believed that most of what is now known as Austronesian was related to the modern Indo-European family. However, he believed that Malay, Afghan and Palavi were related to Semitic. Could you tell me which writers classfied the Indo-Aryan languages as "Arya" and which languages were included in that classification? Did they consider Tamil as closely related to other Dravidian languages? >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 12 20:50:33 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 12:50:33 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227045050.23782.15097999236956449020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > BTW, I am very skeptical of your statements like > Sanskrit was borrowed into India with no Aryans moving > in. <<< Well, this is the second time that I've corrected you. I never said that Sanskrit was "borrowed into India." In fact, I believe Sanskrit developed in India. >>> Dear Mr. Manansala, Am I correct in understanding your position that Sanskrit developed in India and spread Westward to Iran and beyond? You are saying that "Sanskrit was never borrowed into India". How do we explain the similarities between Old Iranian and Sanskrit with your position that Sanskrit is native to India and it never entered into India. Then, it must have gone out from there to Iran?? Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 12 17:54:25 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 12:54:25 -0500 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva In-Reply-To: <19990112171715.27407.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045023.23782.8847769328459679198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >N. Ganesan wrote: >Tantrism also has origins from the mystic traditions >of India. Tantrism did not arrive from Tibet, Africa >or China or Arabia or whatever. Of course! This whole thread seems to be written from a standpoint of high imagination -- to say the least. Is not Indology an ACADEMIC list? Please! Quite a bit is known about Tantrism, none of which seems however to be known to some the previous contributors to this thread... Is there no way to get Indology back on an Academic track? Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu Department of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple Street New Haven CT 06520-8287 phone 203-432-0828 fax 203-432-7844 From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Tue Jan 12 18:01:01 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 13:01:01 -0500 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic Message-ID: <161227045041.23782.11732434887812285804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is this ? I think information was requested, not a harangue about some non-existent special status for Arabic and Persian. But it might be of interest to you to delve into the reasons as to why he did, if Pt. Nehru ever said this about Arabic and Persian. Do I sense more garbage being added to this thread by the proponent of multiple Sivas ? -----Original Message----- From: N. Ganesan [SMTP:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 12:28 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Nehru and Persian/Arabic <<< Where does Nehru say that Persian and Arabic are part of the Indian cultural heritage? >>> In India, Persian and Arabic are given protection as Classical languages. But not Tamil!!!. Tamil has 2300 years of continuous literary tradition, its love/"interior landscape" poems/poetics is unmatched anywhere. IVC language is definitely agglutinative and most probably a Dravidian language (cf. I. Mahadevan, A. Parpola). It is high time Tamil is given protection in India just like Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian. With high regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Jan 12 21:33:58 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 13:33:58 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227045048.23782.12297371228590340928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > BTW, I am very skeptical of your statements like > Sanskrit was borrowed into India with no Aryans moving > in. Well, this is the second time that I've corrected you. I never said that Sanskrit was "borrowed into India." In fact, I believe Sanskrit developed in India. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Tue Jan 12 18:52:44 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 13:52:44 -0500 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva In-Reply-To: <19990111170754.28221.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227044980.23782.1591321253653776795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > During what centuries, do we have "Siva from Tibet? > Want to read on Tibetan "Siva as well. References please. This occurred in the thread `Re. FW: Deepa Mehta's Fire'. Since the topic has departed sufficiently from its original theme, I start a new thread. Tantrism is of Tibetic origin as evident from the following. I have given references below. All the religions of Tantrism, etc. are derivatives of Bon, the ancient Tibetic religion. 1. Tantrism is referred to as `The Chinese Rites' in the Tantric texts. 2. The Fifth Veda fell to Tibet (story reproduced below), and thus the people of that country are adepts at the "Rites of the 5th Veda". (cf. Story given below). 3.. Siva's home is in the Himalayas, and he is white just as Tibetans (North Mongoloids). Mt. Meru is obviously in the Himalayas, probably near Lake Mansarovar. 4. Tantrism is still practiced in Tibet, where it is the national religion. It was more of an underground witchcraft movement in India. Orthodox Vaishnavism was not very happy with such beliefs, and in Bengal the Tibetan Buddhists (ie. Tantrics) were crushed by the Senas. These persons welcomed the Islamic invasion, since it led to the destruction of Vaishnavite shrines. The Sufis further developed the mustic Tibetic Tantrism, mixing it with Arabian alchmey and ancient Egyprian cults (absorbed into Arab Sufism), cf. the Madari Sufists etc. There are thus two fountainheads of mysticism in Asia, one is Tibet, and the other Arabia (cf. the Syrian Harran, the ancient Sabean shrine of the Ka'aba, a representative of Saturn, the Sabean Priapus, later absorbed into Islam). 5. `Parvati' the name of Shiva's wife, means `of the mountain', ie. she came from the Himalayas. 6. The source of Tantrism is given by the Tantric texts themselves as being Mahacina or Cina, ie. Tibet and the surrounding regions. As per a well-known legend, Vasishta travelled to Tibet to learn about the lost `Fifth Veda'. I have reproduced this story below { Rudrayamalatantra.XVII } { Brahmayamalatantra I-III } { Mahacinatantra } { Taratantram (Gaudagranthamala),Ch.141 }. 7. Taoism in China has the conept of yin-yang, similar to the Shiva -Shakti cult and the Adi-buddha and Adi-prajna in later Buddhism. { `Obscure Religious Cults, S.Das Gupta, Firma KLM, 1969 3rd ed. Calctutta, p.341 } 8. Goddess Uma, another manifestation of Shakti, is referred to as Haimavati or daughter of Himavat { Kena Upanishad.III.25 } { Chandra, Indo-Aryan Races', p.123 }. 9. The Siddha cult (a Hindustani alchmist cult) was, as per its own tradition, introduced by one Taoist alchamist from China: There is a popular tradition that the SIddhas were a "a band of death-defying theriacal and therapeutic alchemists indebted in all respects to Bhoga, a pre-Christian Taoist immigrant from China, who, in his methods of keying up the body of impure matter through `reverberation' and `projection' to the pitch of pracitcally cancelling demise, merely sought to promulgate the lesser athanasic precepts of Lao-tse, since the vital objective of the Tao-Teh-King is the transfiguration of hte immortalised ethereal body into a permanent garment of celestial virtue, in order to fit it to associate to eternity with the Tao" - { Das Gupta ibid, p. 193 } and - { `The Doctrinal Culture and Tradition of the Siddhas', Dr. V.V.Raman Sastri, in Cultural Heritage of India, Vol.II 303-319; Ramakrishna Institute Mission of Culture } Tibetic alchmey mixed with Arabic-Islamic alchemy during the golden age of Indian alchemy, 1000 AD- 1800 AD ; the Hindustani Califate of Delhi. Free from Orthodox Vaishnavite oppression, a Hindustani alchemy & Tantra developed and expanded rapidly, representing a mixture of Islamic Sufic and Tibetic Tantric traditions. 10. One of the Tantras is called `Mahacinatantra', and the doctrines propounded are Taoist and Tibetic Bon. Here is the well-known tale of Vasistha going to Tibet to learn the Tantric rites: Vasishta travelled to the sea-shore (as per the Rudrayamala Tantra, this would indicate Bengal) or the Kamakhya hills, Assam (as per the Brahmayamala Tantra) and observed strict Yoga worship for the Devi Buddhesvari. He did for this for a long time without any results and so cursed the Devi. The Devi appeared and said, " he had adopted an altoghter wrong path; her worship was unknown in the Vedas; it was known only in the country of Mahacina; and that Vasishta would gain his object if he received instruction from Vishnu now residing there as Buddha. There he was surprised to find the Buddha drinking wine enjoying several women. His doubts were soon dispelled by Buddha, who initiated him. { Rudrayamalatantra.XVII } { Brahmayamalatantra I-III } { Mahacinatantra } { Taratantram (Gaudagranthamala),Ch.141 }. As per another legend, Brahma memorized all the 5 Vedas. He taught the 5th Veda to the Brahmans, but kept the 5th Veda (ie. the Tantras) safe for a time when mankind was ready. Due to his arrogance, Shiva cut off his head, and the 5th Veda then fell to TIbet, where its inhabitants took up the study with great zeal. Thus, as per the Tantras themselves, the original home of Tantrism is associated with Tibet. Here is a chart showing the Indo-Tibetic religions: Old Bon Tibetic Religion / / \ \ / Uttara Tantrism Bon Purbi (East Indic) Shaktism Lamaism / | / \ \ / | Bengal Assamese Orissa Kashmir Shaivism | Tantrism Tantrism Tantrism Tantric Islam, Nath cult etc. | \ Vaishnava Sahajiya Kamakhya etc. Cult etc. N.Ganesan wrote: > The Tantras date to the centuries AD, and are very late. That does not matter. They are renditions, copies of copies etc. of ancient texts and practices. No Vedic text is found on paper earlier than the 11the century, since paper was introduced by the Moslems, but that does not mean that the Vedas were composed in the Islamic era. Similarly, these Tantras were composed in Tibet in the early centuries BC, and Tibet is the fountainhead of Tantrism, and in fact all mystic knowledge in the East. They were written down only much later. N.Ganesan wrote: > Vajrabodhi in Seventh century AD set sail from Kanchi > to Java and China to teach Tantrayana. He was > from Malaya/Potalaka parvata. Dravidian `Tantrism' is of African Origin. The African origin of the Old Dravidian `Black' Shiva; his affinities to the Bantu Shiva, etc. has already been shown on this list, and there is no need to repeat. Indeed, one may find Dravidian `voodoo' among the untouched Dravidians living in remote areas. One should not use the word `Tantrism' for this set of beliefs, since Tantra means 5Th Veda from Tibet. `Dravidian religion' or Dravidian Shavism are better terms. It is independant of Tibetic Tantrism. The practices may have been similar. Just because the Greeks had the Dionysus and Priapus cults does not mean that they were `Tantrics', or `Shaivites', so the occurrence of Priapus-like cults among the Dravidians and Bantu Africans does not imply they are Tantrics. It is important to distinguish the White Tibetic Shiva, the Black Old Dravidian Shiva; and the Roman Hermes, Greek Priapus and Nordic Odin; they have no relation. These are similar gods in different religions. Samar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 12 22:47:36 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 14:47:36 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227045063.23782.5104784083649452671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Not necessarily, of course. Strictly speaking, Paul is right that Sanskrit, and even Proto-Indo-Aryan, developed in the Indian subcontinent (probably Punjab and Kashmir, respectively). Proto-Indo-Iranian is of course an entirely different matter. >>> All I am saying is that Aryans moved into India with their language. In what percentage, we do not know. 3%?? or 10%?? Their language is not Sanskrit, thanks for the correction. Is it Indo-Iranian? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Tue Jan 12 13:55:20 1999 From: aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Mikael Aktor) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 14:55:20 +0100 Subject: CFP: Upanishad Symposium Message-ID: <161227044984.23782.5558797968527740772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indology listers, IAHR (International Association for the History of Religions) holds its 18th quinquennial world congress in Durban, South Africa, 5-12 August 2000. A symposium on the ancient Upanishads is now being organized. Its title is THE UPANISHADS - FOCUS AND PERSPECTIVES The intention of the symposium is to create a dialogue among scholars working on the Upanishads from different disciplines, thereby bringing the knowledge of these texts up to date. Papers may address the Upanishads from the angles of history, society, philosophy, language, religion, history of reception, body and gender or any other subject relevant to the Upanishads or their context. The symposium is still open. For further information (participants, deadlines, details of registration), please contact the convenor Dr Mikael Aktor, Department of the Study of Religion, University of Aarhus, Main Building, DK-8000 Aarhus C, Denmark. Fax: +45 8613 0490 E-mail: aktor at post8.tele.dk From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Wed Jan 13 01:19:23 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 15:19:23 -1000 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva In-Reply-To: <19990113004349.7027.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045076.23782.717368118859732550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Manu is venerable because Nietzsche used him > to beat Christianity and William Jones' statue > holds Manu in his hand. My dear fellow, if someone says "Nietzsche", I say "Gesundheit" (in Tamil, "thiirgayusu"). What do I know of Nietzsche or William Jones or their intrigues? Your point is...? Regards, Raja. ________ ________ __ __ ________ | | | | (/ \/ ) | | | | | | / | | | | | | / | | | | | | / | | | | | | _/ __ | | | | | | (__/ \) | | / From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jan 12 20:54:41 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 15:54:41 -0500 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic In-Reply-To: <19990112172824.5339.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045052.23782.5333241121890488378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While I like the discussion, the occasional agenda tone bothers me. The following is a good example. What does Indology group have to do if Tamil is not given its due recognition by some Indian politicians? Does Indology have to be driven by a bias and an agenda? Hope not. -BM On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > <<< > Where does Nehru say that Persian and Arabic are part of the Indian > cultural heritage? > >>> > > In India, Persian and Arabic are given protection as > Classical languages. > > But not Tamil!!!. Tamil has 2300 years of continuous > literary tradition, its love/"interior landscape" > poems/poetics is unmatched anywhere. > > IVC language is definitely agglutinative and most > probably a Dravidian language (cf. I. Mahadevan, A. Parpola). > > It is high time Tamil is given protection in India > just like Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian. > > With high regards, > N. Ganesan > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 13 00:43:49 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 16:43:49 -0800 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva Message-ID: <161227045072.23782.5656753009696717812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sort of like Manu talking with a malicious glee :-) Manu is venerable because Nietzsche used him to beat Christianity and William Jones' statue holds Manu in his hand. No offence intended to Manu or any other party. Yours N. Ganesan <<< N.Ganesan duking it out with Samar Abbas! I love it. :-) :-) Sort of like Prabhakaran duking it out with Ayatollah Khomeini. :-) No offence intended to any party, esp. to N. Ganesan, whose Tamil expertise I appreciate. >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Wed Jan 13 00:55:46 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 16:55:46 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227045068.23782.5550706433055451010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: > > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > >Even Sir William Jones was sketchy about the > >relationship of Sanskrit to other Indian languages. He denied that > >Hindi was in any way related to Sanskrit, but otoh believed that most > >of what is now known as Austronesian was related to the modern > >Indo-European family. > > Interesting. I'm not familiar at all with Sir William Jones' > thoughts on linguistics, except for the famous paragraph in which he > is said to have first identified the Indo-European language family. > I do know that a rather well-known Indo-Europeanist from around the > turn of the century (whose name escapes me right now) did indeed > propose a relationship between Indo-European and Austronesian > (Malayo-Polynesian). It would be interesting to know if he had been > in any way influenced by Jones in this. What is your source for > Jones' thoughts on IE and MP? I think that Alexis Manaster-Ramer wrote something on this recently, referring to (I believe) the following source: Callaghan, Catherine A. & Wick R. Miller (1962)``Swadesh's Macro Mixtecan hypothesis and English,'' Southwestern Journal of Anthropology 18.278-285. Btw, Callaghan and Miller attack Swadesh by using his method to show that English is Macro-Mixtecan. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 13 01:05:15 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 17:05:15 -0800 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic Message-ID: <161227045074.23782.12700624519279089252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > When I was at Inst. of Asian studies on a visit, people told > me this that Persian, Arabic are classified as classical > languages, but not Tamil. > > I have to check where in one of the Central govt. > documents. This is shown to UN etc., to get funds. N. S. Raja wrote: *This is all too vague. Get back to us *when you can be more specific. You and *I are engineers, we should know how to *be specific. Thanks for your advice. If you check my postings in Indology, usually my postings are with references and published sources. From the draft copy submitted to Govt. of India from Institute of Asian studies, Madras entitled as Tamil as a Classical language, the concluding line is: "In the list of classical languages, the Government of India has included Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian. It is only appropriate that the Government of India includes old Tamil (upto 6th century A.D.) in the list of Classical languages along with Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian and give due importance for the promotion of studies on this ancient language and culture in a wider national and international perspective." Because Tamil is classified by GOI as a modern Indian language (MIL) and a regional language, the growth in its reasearch avenues are held up by delays and lack of funds. The University Grants Commission allocates funds for research into Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian only. This may be a vestige from Nehru era. Now things can be amended to include Tamil as one of India's classical languages along with Arabic, Persian and Sanskrit. I have about 25 pages of the draft copy telling why Tamil is Classical. More later. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Jan 12 22:11:50 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 17:11:50 -0500 Subject: Kumarila Bhatta's criticism of false etymologies Message-ID: <161227045057.23782.15134098687833836781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I remember reading in "A history of grammatical theories in Malayalam" by K. N. Ezhuthachan that Kumarila Bhatta discusses false Sanskrit etymologies given by others for clearly non-Sanskrit words. I think they might be from Tantravarttika. Since I do not have access to that book, can somebody provide the list of words he discusses? Any information about the date and place of Kumarila Bhatta will also be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Jan 12 22:49:24 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 17:49:24 -0500 Subject: Kumarila Bhatta's criticism of false etymologies Message-ID: <161227045065.23782.5907004950471163550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/12/99 4:17:05 PM Central Standard Time, Palaniappa at AOL.COM writes: > I think they might be from > Tantravarttika. Sorry, what I meant was that Bhatta discusses them in Tantravarttika. Regards S. Palaniappan From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Jan 12 17:11:38 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 18:11:38 +0100 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic Message-ID: <161227045015.23782.15596515493647504699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the Net, On behalf of a colleague who does not have access to the Internet, I would like to forward the following question to the list members: Where does Nehru say that Persian and Arabic are part of the Indian cultural heritage? (My colleague has information that Nehru says something to this effect in his writings, but has no reference). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Jan 13 00:10:59 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 19:10:59 -0500 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic Message-ID: <161227045070.23782.3904966536142025786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/12/99 2:54:53 PM Central Standard Time, bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > What does Indology group have to do if Tamil is > not given its due recognition by some Indian > politicians? Recognition has its rewards in terms of resource allocation. That should be of concern to Indology. An example of how it might favorably affect Indology may be that more funds may be made available for preservation of manuscripts. Regards S. Palaniappan From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Tue Jan 12 15:28:32 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 20:28:32 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045001.23782.4725236865595916613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think this mode of movement is costlier than even the transport by horse (high costs of building a ship). Mostly this transport was used for business and occasionally for invasions. Use of this mode for mass scale cultural diffusion is rare. The absense of mahAyAna in Sri lanka and Southeast Asia perhaps illustrates this, whereas Tibet practically has all the shades of mahAyAna eventhough the land route is difficult. regards, sarma. At 03:31 PM 1/11/99 -1000, you wrote: >On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > >> Let us be clear about some general commonsense points. >> >> 1. Because of the poor means of communication in the old days, normally >> any thing that travels to tamilnadu has to go either through >> Andhra or Maharashtra. This means that whether it is mahAyAna or >> mahAbhAshyA, normally it will be communicated to tamilnadu after it >> has been established in these two regions. The chances of a jump >> right from north to tamilnadu is very very unlikely. Remember >> there were no aeroplanes in those days and travel was by foot or >> at the most by horse drawn carriage and very few people could afford >> the latter. > >However, sea travel was well-established >even in ancient days -- which means that >people could possibly have gone >directly between north and south India >without making an extended transit of >middle India. A well-known example: >the Sinhalas of Sri Lanka are said to >have arrived -- by ship -- either from >Orissa, or from Gujarat, or possibly both. > >Regards, > > >Raja. > > From shankars at SPRINT.CA Wed Jan 13 01:45:24 1999 From: shankars at SPRINT.CA (Sanjeev Shankar) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 20:45:24 -0500 Subject: A plea to Cambridge univ. press In-Reply-To: <19990112142733.7144.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045078.23782.18181015310242104746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > N. Ganesan wrote: > > this book will be a good reality check for many > > politically motivated, home-grown theories of > > Indigenous Aryans spreading out far into the West. > > <<< > How so??? > Interestingly Parpola makes use of the Rg Veda and > other scriptures ... > >>> > > I know Prof. Parpola's publications well. > > The answer is quite complex. At the very least, > The book, "Deciphering the Indus script" if available > widely and affordably in India, > the elitist status quo and dominance will be in for a shake-up. Again how so?? And how will making this book available make the "answer" less complex? And what exactly do you mean by "the elitist status quo and dominance will be in for a shake-up"? Please do expand on your theories. > > I have tried to explain some aspects for few years now > in Indology. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Jan 12 20:52:37 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 21:52:37 +0100 Subject: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227045054.23782.16510202851101255112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > >Robert Zydenbos, in a bit of defensive revisionism, argues against the > >charge of Jung's nazi affiliations. > > > >>Je pense que non. > > > >Sadly, for all those so enamored of Jung, he was indeed a virulent nazi who > >wrote position papers for the nazis, believing that his notion of > >collective unconscious and the nazi aryan ideal were of the same stuff. > >[...] > It is not the first time that we have had this kind of witch-hunt on this > list, fuelled by Anglo-Saxons from countries that make big cash out of > making stereotyped war movies and paperback novels and are afraid of the > euro. :-) Well, what's wrong with killing a few krauts, Robert? > I am reminded of one of the most popular 20th-century Dutch poets, Hendrik > Marsman: he completed a translation of Nietzsche's _Zarathustra_ (that > already must make him suspect, I suppose) and openly flirted with the idea > of a 'strong man' etc. etc. But later he moved away from this, and when > politically things came to a head, he tried to escape to Britain to join in > organising the resistance but drowned on the way. So the question arises: > must we condemn Marsman to burn in hell forever? I think this is an important point. I have personally known people who were involved with Fascism in the thirties and - worse - in the fourties. Some of them simply changed their opinion and left the movement at an early stage. Others went with it the whole way, some of them risking their lives in the service of a bad cause and paying for their political folly with the hatred and scorn of all those who didn't have the courage to fight them when it would have been dangerous. I have seen too many of Hitler's speeches on TV to have any sympathy with his admirerers, but I realize that many of them in their private lives were fully normal people who could be both friendly and noble. Thus, it is a mistake to believe that people who were Nazis to the end of the war were evil as *private* individuals. I have seen striking examples to the opposite. Please remember that we live in a century where people (and very often people who should have known better) have been able to convince themselves of the most atrocious political ideas, left or right, often under the pressure of unstable and difficult social conditions. When totalitarianims prevailed, even non-believers were sucked up the the maelstrom of events and had little opportunity to resist, mentally or otherwise. In Nazi Germany as well as in the Soviet Union, opposition could spell catastrophe not only for yourself but for your family as well. (Now ask yourself what you would have done in their place). Thus, totalitarianism corrupted everybody and everything. But after the war, placed in a democratic setting, the German majority gradually melted into the democratic fold. This process was studied by sociologists in the first years after the war. They found a significant change in peoples' attitudes about 1960. Therefore, I think the acid test is whether a person with a totalitarian past loses his or her old ideas in a democratic setting and adopts new attitudes. We must assume that this happened to quite a few of the Indologists and other intellectuals who were involved with Nazism, or for that matter, Communism. Their extremism was born in difficult times, and was sometimes cured in a more benevolent society. Therefore, we have to judge their work by its merit, not by the ideological past of the author. The person writing in 1960 or 1970 may be a very different person from the one that wrote in 1940. > And for everybody's information: I am not a (neo-)Nazi and am not German / > Swiss / Austrian / Rumanian / Ukrainian / Finnish / Italian / Spanish etc. > So none of that kind of innuendo will stick. My goodness, Robert, what ARE you then????? Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Wed Jan 13 02:59:23 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 21:59:23 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: <199901121932.AAA13288@mbg.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045082.23782.14270618077235016577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Where is the witchhunt? Jung was a nazi - and an antisemite in his private life. Whatever one chooses to make of that, it is merely a fact. >At 17:10 11.01.99 -0500, Dan Lusthaus wrote with malicious glee: Are you so sure? Why would the fact that people today reverance an antisemite, while insisting on either ignoring or devaluing that aspect of Jung (and I don't think they would think of themselves as either promoting or condoning antisemitism per se), why would that give me glee - malicious or any other kind? >> Jung,[...] >>wrote position papers for the nazis, believing that his notion of >>collective unconscious and the nazi aryan ideal were of the same stuff. >>[...] > >The collective unconscious is something empirical, and any ideal is not. But >anyhow, this is not a Psychology List. Fine. Obviously Jung would have needed that explained to him, since in his writings of that period he wrote (with passion) about racial purity and purifying the archetypes as tandem momentous potentials close at hand. > >I must confess that I do not know the supposedly well-documented Nazi stuff >about Jung. But in all honesty, I fail to immediately see the relevance of >such an incomplete reference. > It's easy to dismiss things while one remains willfully uninformed. What was incomplete about the reference? I gave the author, title, and publisher - and even a hint at the price. Here are more details: Under pressure to make something about these lectures available, Bollingen - which publishes all the Jung material - came out with this recently: GenevaJung's Seminar on Nietzsche's Zarathustra (Bollingen Series, 99) by C. G. Jung, James L. Jarrett List Price: $18.95, Paperback - 352 pages Abridged edition (January 1998) Princeton Univ Pr; ISBN: 0691017387 ; The original unabridged version, that was $100 when first released just under a devade ago? It has become two volumes: Nietzsche's Zarathustra : Notes of the Seminar Given in 1934-1939 (Bollingen Series, 99) by James L. Jarrett (Editor), Carl Gustav Jung, Price: $225.00,Hardcover - 1578 pages Vol 1-2, unabridged (December 1988) Princeton Univ Pr; ISBN: 0691099537 You can practically buy the rest of the Bollingen collection of Jung's writings for the price of this book alone. Draw your own conclusions as to motive. As I mentioned, at least to Bollingen's credit, the intro to this work stares reality in the face. >I am reminded of one of the most popular 20th-century Dutch poets, Hendrik >Marsman: he completed a translation of Nietzsche's _Zarathustra_ (that >already must make him suspect, I suppose) Let's be clear about the problem here. The problem is not Nietzsche, who was never a nazi nor an antisemite -- he broke relations with his sister when she married a prominent German antisemite. He warned Germany about the direction it was heading in in very disapproving terms. The problem is how Nietzsche's works were appropriated, or misappropriated, to further aims that were the opposite of his own. Jung was a major player in that misappropriation (as was Heidegger; though the game began with Nietzsche's sister decades earlier -- but this is not a Nietzsche list...). I don't see any parallel between Marsman and Jung. Jung never joined the resistance, and, like Heidegger and some others, benefitted from a revisionist reconstitution of his reputation after the War. > Erich Frauwallner was an Austrian >Nazi, yet his history of Indian philosophy, unfortunately never completed, >still stands unparalleled. Jung was not a dry abhidharmic scholar familiar only to specialists in his own field. Frauwallner was never a cottage industry for spiritual salvation and self understanding. One you read for historical scholarship and provocative theories. The other for insight into one's own self and the structure of the universe. These are not the same profession, and, since one does not entrust oneself to them in the same way, they do not require the same credentials. I, for one, never found the two Vasubandhu theory compelling in the least. Dan Lusthaus Florida State University -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 4233 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Jan 12 22:28:17 1999 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 22:28:17 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: <369BAB94.B79C9B3D@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227045061.23782.12392601011829240982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: >Even Sir William Jones was sketchy about the >relationship of Sanskrit to other Indian languages. He denied that >Hindi was in any way related to Sanskrit, but otoh believed that most >of what is now known as Austronesian was related to the modern >Indo-European family. Interesting. I'm not familiar at all with Sir William Jones' thoughts on linguistics, except for the famous paragraph in which he is said to have first identified the Indo-European language family. I do know that a rather well-known Indo-Europeanist from around the turn of the century (whose name escapes me right now) did indeed propose a relationship between Indo-European and Austronesian (Malayo-Polynesian). It would be interesting to know if he had been in any way influenced by Jones in this. What is your source for Jones' thoughts on IE and MP? >However, he believed that Malay, Afghan and Palavi >were related to Semitic. Led astray by the script, no doubt. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From mcv at WXS.NL Tue Jan 12 22:31:41 1999 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 22:31:41 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: <19990112205034.21852.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045059.23782.10830610758139924008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: >You are saying that "Sanskrit was never borrowed into India". >How do we explain the similarities between Old Iranian >and Sanskrit with your position that Sanskrit is native >to India and it never entered into India. Then, it must >have gone out from there to Iran?? Not necessarily, of course. Strictly speaking, Paul is right that Sanskrit, and even Proto-Indo-Aryan, developed in the Indian subcontinent (probably Punjab and Kashmir, respectively). Proto-Indo-Iranian is of course an entirely different matter. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Jan 12 19:32:33 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 00:32:33 +0500 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227045037.23782.18138749853947242735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 17:10 11.01.99 -0500, Dan Lusthaus wrote with malicious glee: >Robert Zydenbos, in a bit of defensive revisionism, argues against the >charge of Jung's nazi affiliations. > >>Je pense que non. > >Sadly, for all those so enamored of Jung, he was indeed a virulent nazi who >wrote position papers for the nazis, believing that his notion of >collective unconscious and the nazi aryan ideal were of the same stuff. >[...] The collective unconscious is something empirical, and any ideal is not. But anyhow, this is not a Psychology List. It is not the first time that we have had this kind of witch-hunt on this list, fuelled by Anglo-Saxons from countries that make big cash out of making stereotyped war movies and paperback novels and are afraid of the euro. :-) I must confess that I do not know the supposedly well-documented Nazi stuff about Jung. But in all honesty, I fail to immediately see the relevance of such an incomplete reference. I am reminded of one of the most popular 20th-century Dutch poets, Hendrik Marsman: he completed a translation of Nietzsche's _Zarathustra_ (that already must make him suspect, I suppose) and openly flirted with the idea of a 'strong man' etc. etc. But later he moved away from this, and when politically things came to a head, he tried to escape to Britain to join in organising the resistance but drowned on the way. So the question arises: must we condemn Marsman to burn in hell forever? In exactly the same way, my earlier reference to Jung's condemnation of the Nazi mentality still stands, I believe. These smug witch-hunts are crude because they condemn indiscriminately and throw out the baby with the bath-water. Erich Frauwallner was an Austrian Nazi, yet his history of Indian philosophy, unfortunately never completed, still stands unparalleled. My own professor, an Indian from Kerala, was Fr.'s student much later and has nothing but the greatest respect for him as a scholar and human being. Of course we can continue the razzia and say that my professor must be naive or a stupid Nazi 'revisionist' too; but somehow, I find that ridiculous. (And not all sympathisers of LB Johnson were rapists, torturers and child-murderers in Vietnam.) And for everybody's information: I am not a (neo-)Nazi and am not German / Swiss / Austrian / Rumanian / Ukrainian / Finnish / Italian / Spanish etc. So none of that kind of innuendo will stick. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Wed Jan 13 10:22:59 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 04:22:59 -0600 Subject: "Hindu writer who lives in New York" Message-ID: <161227045095.23782.8696660869782376583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 11 Jan 1999 14:01:16 -0500 Ashish Chandra wrote: >I wonder if "a Hindu writer who lives in New York" has the same ring to it >as Mr. So and So, professor of Theology ... Are we to >assume that the article is impartial just because it has been written by a >"Hindu writer" ... Dear Ashish Chandra, You'll be glad to know that Dominik, the list owner agrees with those that object to this thread by saying, in a private admonition to me, that this _ topic isn't really the meat and drink of INDOLOGY._ And I too agree that the ostensibly disparate realms of political and academic discourse should be kept separate as much as possible. Sadly, however, and with increasing frequency, it seems to me, events in the real world impinge dangerously upon the foundations of our ivory towers. I forwarded Tunku Varadarajan's op-ed piece [so the question of impartiality does not arise, and he is perfectly justified in identifying himself as a Hindu if he choses to imply that others in what he calls an emerging Hindu Taliban don't speak for him] because it is germane to the various threads on Indology that I've been following for at least 4 years pertaining to whether there was or was not a migration of Aryan-language speaking peoples into India. While some researchers may have only the purest of academic reasons for hypothesizing _out of India_ alternative explanations for commonalites of language and ritual elsewhere in ancient Asia and Europe, there is a school of thought that believes attacks on Muslims, and now Christians, are rationalized by their purpetrators [including some VHP and Bajarang Dal members photographed and interviewed in the current _IndiaToday International_, January 11,1999, pp. 10-13] rationalized as _reconversion_ counterattacks against foreign ideologies. This argument is harder to make if it must be conceded that the Vedic peoples also migrated into the subcontinent. As to why I should care about about the political ramifications of this academic debate, let self interest suffice--I admit to hoping that India shall remain a relatively safe _secular democracy_ to visit on research forays for many decades to come. Unlike the real Taliban's Afghanistan, or Prabhakaran's Eelam. I write this from Al Capone's [and no longer Michael Jordan's] Chicago, murder capital of the U.S., according to the most recent annual crime statistics. Not that it makes much difference to the victims, that here perpetrators of violence favor guns over fire. Michael Rabe From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 13 12:52:44 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 04:52:44 -0800 Subject: A clarification (D. Sinor) Message-ID: <161227045106.23782.5788881511757421680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I hoped somebody better informed to comment on this, but apparently it is not happening. Denis Sinor is an American scholar of Hungarian origin and his main field of interest has been the history of Central Asia (and more widely Eurasia). He taught long time at Indiana University and is still working though old (born in 1916). The list of his publications is very long and also includes linguistics (so- called Altaic). >>> I did not see Denis Sinor's publications on Indo-European linguistics. Are there any? Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Jan 13 03:20:18 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 08:20:18 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227045080.23782.9104589342526728905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dhAnykaTaka. This is situated on the southern bank of kriSNA river in the sattenapalli taluk of Guntur district of Andhra Pradesh. Its present name is dharaNikOTa. The buddhist and also saiva kshetra of amarAvati is very close to it. As a matter of fact the present amarAvati is a modern creation. In the famous temple of amarEzwara dedicated to siva, the inscriptions upto 17 th century describe the place as dhanakaTaka, dhAnyakaTaka, dhAnyavATi, dannaDakOTa, dhAraNikOta dharaNAlakOTa etc. The present position is amarAvati is a town and dharaNikOTa is a small satellite village. A prakrit inscription of iksvAku kings of about 300 A.D obtained at the place calls it dhanakaDA. "siddhaM namO bhagavatO sarvajJAya. vijaya kaMthAvAra dhanakaDAtO ^^^^^^^^^^^ mahArAjA asamEdhayAjI akhkaya hiraNNa kOTI padAyiH ikhkhAkUNAM raNNO siri ehuvala cAttamUla vammA aNavEti...". (sanskrit rendering) "siddhaM namO bhagavatassarvajJAya. VijayaskaNthAvAra-dhanakaDAtaH mahArAjO.azvamEdhayAjI akSaya hiraNyakOTipradAyiH ikSvAkuNAM rAjJa zzrI ehuvala cAttamUla varmA AjJApayati..." -Luder's List of Brahmi Inscriptions. Nos. 1225,1271,1205 can be consulted. An inscription of koTa kings of the 12th century from the same place calls it dhAnyakaTaka "svasti catussamudramudrita nikhila vasundharAparipAlaka srImattriNayana pallava prasAdita kRSNavENAnadIdakSiNa SaTsahasrAvanIvallabha bhayalObhadurlabha cOdacALukyasAmanta madAnEkapa mRgEndra vibhavO .amarendra zrImadamarEzvaradeva divya pAdapdmArAdhaka parabalasAdhaka zrIdhAnykaTaka puravarAdhIzvara..." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -South Indian Inscriptions, vol IV, No.749 Another inscription of the 12th century is by a courtesan "gasvi sUramadEvi" donating 55 head of cattle for keeping the wick lit continuously before the buddhA, says. "asti zrIdhAnyakaTakapuram surapurAtparam ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ yatrAmarEzvaraz zambhur amarEzvara pUjitaH buddhO devas sas sAnnidhyAdatra dAtrO(A?) prapUjitaH caityamatyunnataM yatra ....." indicating that there was puja of budha upto 12th century A.D. -South Indian Inscriptions, vol IV, No.224 Taranatha in the "History of Buddhism" gave the latest name of the place known to him. It seems that continuous contact was maintained by Tibetans with this place quite for some time. regards, sarma. From kekai at JPS.NET Wed Jan 13 17:03:00 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 09:03:00 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045110.23782.6544149638155974595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > > Op dinsdag, 12-jan-99 schreef Paul Kekai Manansala: > > PKM> Mahacina does not necessarily refer to China. > > To which other places you think that would be Mahacina could refer to Assam, Tibet, Burma and other areas to the northeast of India. All these locations have been speculated on as well as others. Regarding your other statements, I have said that Tantric texts refer to Tantric influences from Mahacina, which is correct. I never fully stated that all that is Tantrism came from there, although there are a few texts that do claim Tantrism originated in Mahacina. I totally disagree with your views on Tantrism in China. The whole body of Japanese tantrism came first from China. Also, Taoist ideas about sex may be different in some ways from those of Tantrism, but there are also many similarities that can hardly be found anywhere else. There is no need to refer me to "Tibetologists" or "Sinologists" if you by that you mean the standard Western views. These are and have long been controlled by strong bias that do not allow openly for ideas that contradict their world view. The latter tends to have a monodirectional and racial view of the flow of culture. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From kekai at JPS.NET Wed Jan 13 17:07:00 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 09:07:00 -0800 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic Message-ID: <161227045112.23782.11885712812201903760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > > On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > > > On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > > > > The University Grants Commission allocates funds for > > research into Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian only. > > This may be a vestige from Nehru era. > > A thorough knowledge of Arabic and Persian eases understanding of their > derivative, Hindustani, which is the third most widely used language in > the world, is the de facto lingua franca and effective national language > of India and understood by more than half of all Indians. Hence their > status as classical languages: like classical Latin giving birth to the > modern Romance languages, Classical Arabic and Persian gave birth to Urdu > and its derivative Hindustani. Hence their status as Classical Languages > par excellence of the bulk of the Indian population. > > Moreover, a person speaking Hindustani can easily understand and write > Arabic and or Persian with very little effort, while learning other > classical languages is more difficult, but may be suitable for minorities. > You're right, but I would agree with Ganesan that Tamil deserves classification as a classical language. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Wed Jan 13 09:29:09 1999 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 09:29:09 +0000 Subject: SAyaNa & Madhava Message-ID: <161227045088.23782.9023411952457980439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Monday, January 11, 1999, Cezary Galewicz wrote: > Can anyone help me with a good reference to 14 -century SAyaNa > and his brother(?) MAdhava , their relation, any information > concerning their historical setting and whatever could be > usefull when evaluating SAyaNa*s preface to his (?) commentary > on RV. What is of interest to me in particular is the > following: > Thank You in Advance > > Cezary Galewicz > Institute of Oriental Philology > Jagiellonian University > Krakow, Poland The following references might be useful. (Of these, # 3 and # 4 are not available to me right now.) # 1) The valuable work *SAyaNa and MAdhava-VidyAraNya* by Munuganti Kripacharyulu, Guntur 1980. Some 200 pages. The author*s PhD. Available from the author: *6-6-35, Arundelpet, Guntur - 522 002 (A.P.)*. # 2) *VedabhAshyabhUmikasaMgraha* (collection of SAyaNa*s commentaries) ed. by Baladeva Upadhyaya. Kashi Sanskrit Series 102, Varanasi, 2dn ed. 1985. With the editor*s introductions in hindi, english and sanskrit. # 3) An important article in *IA* 1916 by R. Nariasimchar. # 4) I think that some references are given in Verpoorten*s *MimaMsa* volume in *HIL*. > 1) Were SAyaNa and MAdhava realy brothers? Yes. > 2) What is the source of our knowledge concerning S &/or M > serving as ministers on Vijayanagara courts of Bukka I & > Harihara II? Mainly introductory verses to the works, colophons to the works, and inscriptions. > 3) How can one understand the very beginning of S*s Preface > whare it is said that it is MAdhava who is going to explain > (vedArtham vaktum) the aim/meaning of the Veda? Kripacharyulu, pp. 178 - 179 and 182 - 183. Upadhyaya, p. [49], cf. p. [47]. > 4) If S was influenced by his brother*s teachings can one look > on supposedly PM ideas introduced along with Jaimini sutras > as tainted by Vedantic thought? The question is somewhat unclear to me. Could you re-phrase it? > 4) Could there be any possibility of an influence of another > type of ideas on SAyaNa through his brother holding the > post of the Head of SmArta MaTh at ZRNgeri? Questions # 4) and # 4) seem to presuppose that SAyaNa and MAdhava held different views to begin with. This might be doubtful. Both are likely to have been VedAntins, MImAMsakas and smArtas. ********************************************************************** Sven Ekelin ekelin at bahnhof.se ********************************************************************** From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 13 18:28:00 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 10:28:00 -0800 Subject: Classical vs. Modern Message-ID: <161227045118.23782.15324696157894334040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/13/99 7:24:45 AM Central Standard Time, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: > The pathetic appeal of one list member to place > Tamil on the same footing as the Classical languages >-- Sanskrit, Persian and Arabic in India-- sounds ridiculous. >Tamil is a modern language and not a > classical language. Classical lgs are not the mother tongues > of any segment of natives in India. In the western world, > only Latin and Greek qualify as classical languages. Can Bh. Krishnamurti explain or define what a Classical language is? Thanks. Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Jan 13 06:22:19 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 11:22:19 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990113082018.0084b500@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045085.23782.12591779410304980193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The source for the third reference should read -South Indian Inscriptions, vol VI, No.224 instead of -South Indian Inscriptions, vol IV, No.224 The error is regreted. regards, sarma. At 08:20 AM 1/13/99 +0500, I wrote: >dhAnykaTaka. > This is situated on the southern bank of >kriSNA river in the sattenapalli taluk of Guntur district of >Andhra Pradesh. Its present name is dharaNikOTa. The buddhist and also >saiva kshetra of amarAvati is very close to it. As a matter of fact the >present amarAvati is a modern creation. In the famous temple of amarEzwara >dedicated to siva, the inscriptions upto 17 th century describe the >place as dhanakaTaka, dhAnyakaTaka, dhAnyavATi, dannaDakOTa, dhAraNikOta >dharaNAlakOTa etc. The present position is amarAvati is a town and >dharaNikOTa is a small satellite village. > >A prakrit inscription of iksvAku kings of about 300 A.D obtained at the >place calls it dhanakaDA. > >"siddhaM namO bhagavatO sarvajJAya. vijaya kaMthAvAra dhanakaDAtO > ^^^^^^^^^^^ >mahArAjA asamEdhayAjI akhkaya hiraNNa kOTI padAyiH ikhkhAkUNAM >raNNO siri ehuvala cAttamUla vammA aNavEti...". >(sanskrit rendering) >"siddhaM namO bhagavatassarvajJAya. VijayaskaNthAvAra-dhanakaDAtaH >mahArAjO.azvamEdhayAjI akSaya hiraNyakOTipradAyiH ikSvAkuNAM rAjJa >zzrI ehuvala cAttamUla varmA AjJApayati..." > >-Luder's List of Brahmi Inscriptions. Nos. 1225,1271,1205 can be consulted. > >An inscription of koTa kings of the 12th century from the same place calls >it dhAnyakaTaka > >"svasti catussamudramudrita nikhila vasundharAparipAlaka srImattriNayana >pallava prasAdita kRSNavENAnadIdakSiNa SaTsahasrAvanIvallabha >bhayalObhadurlabha cOdacALukyasAmanta madAnEkapa mRgEndra vibhavO >.amarendra zrImadamarEzvaradeva divya pAdapdmArAdhaka parabalasAdhaka >zrIdhAnykaTaka puravarAdhIzvara..." >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >-South Indian Inscriptions, vol IV, No.749 > >Another inscription of the 12th century is by a courtesan >"gasvi sUramadEvi" donating 55 head of cattle for keeping the wick lit >continuously before the buddhA, says. > >"asti zrIdhAnyakaTakapuram surapurAtparam > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >yatrAmarEzvaraz zambhur amarEzvara pUjitaH >buddhO devas sas sAnnidhyAdatra dAtrO(A?) prapUjitaH >caityamatyunnataM yatra ....." > >indicating that there was puja of budha upto 12th century A.D. > >-South Indian Inscriptions, vol IV, No.224 > >Taranatha in the "History of Buddhism" gave the latest name of the >place known to him. It seems that continuous contact was maintained >by Tibetans with this place quite for some time. > >regards, > >sarma. > > From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Jan 13 16:42:14 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 11:42:14 -0500 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045114.23782.1124035725899542631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Abbas, I think you have good points. Why can't you say these without calling names? It's really painful to see scholarship being so immodestly conveyed. Hope consideration. - BM On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Samar Abbas wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > N. Ganesan wrote: > > > > > > "Siva Mahadeva, the Great God of Hinduism, has his origins > > > firmly rooted in India. He does NOT come from Africa, > > > Tibet or China. > > > > > > > What about the IE homeland? Since you appear to tow the AIT line then > > Rudra would be a Vedic Central Asian deity connected with Thor and > > other Indo-European storm gods? > > Proof by Contradiction and Reductio ad absurdem - > > Dear Paul, I agree that N.Ganesan seems to be contradicting himself. > I here below show that his arguments are internally inconsistent. > > He seems to be in favour of the Vedic origin of Shiva, since he has > in the last few posts, stated something like the following: > - " Shiva as mentioned in the oldest Tamil texts is White " > - He does not include Central Asia in his list of places where Shiva did > definitely not come. Thus, as Paul points out, he seems to hold on to > the old rusty theory of Rudra being the progenitor of Shiva. > - " Shiva Mahadeva, the Great God of Hinduism has his roots firmly in > India". This statement, without any references and a mere appeal to > Hindu identity would have been expected from some of the Vedic-Indus > theorists or a one-month old RSS sevak. Instead, it is being made by > `Dravidianist' Ganesan, classical supporter of Aryan Invasions ! > > Assuming N.Ganesan's arguments to be true, ( => stands for > `implies that' ): > > Rudra gave rise to Shiva => Indus Valley is Vedic (since Rudra idols > found at IVC sites) => No Aryan Invasion. > > Yet, some time back, Ganesan was arguing in favour of a Dravidian Indus > and Aryan Invasions ! Now, he is saying exactly what the BJP is saying ! > A remarkable change, indeed. > > In case he still believes in his Dravidian Indus and Aryan Invasions, > I would like to know how he reconciles his concept of a White Shiva whose > home is in Tibet and whose statues are found in Indus Valley with a > Dravidian Indus ? > > Then, maybe, he favours the notion of the Dravidians having peacefully > adopted the Aryan language and Aryan Shiva. But he has also written > against this. So what next ? > > I do not intend to rake up the banned AIT, so let us not > dwell on this here. Only intended to point out a contradiction. > > Samar > From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Jan 13 16:57:17 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 11:57:17 -0500 Subject: "Hindu writer who lives in New York" In-Reply-To: <199901131022.EAA26168@dune.artic.edu> Message-ID: <161227045116.23782.11690580299331482903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Michael Rabe wrote: > On 11 Jan 1999 14:01:16 -0500 Ashish Chandra wrote: > > >I wonder if "a Hindu writer who lives in New York" has the same ring to it > >as Mr. So and So, professor of Theology ... Are we to > >assume that the article is impartial just because it has been written by a > >"Hindu writer" ... > > be kept separate as much as possible. Sadly, however, and with increasing > frequency, it seems to me, events in the real world impinge dangerously > upon the foundations of our ivory towers. > > I forwarded Tunku Varadarajan's op-ed piece [so the question of > impartiality does not arise, and he is perfectly justified in identifying > himself as a Hindu if he choses to imply that others in what he calls an > emerging Hindu Taliban don't speak for him] because it is germane to the > various threads on Indology that I've been following for at least 4 years > pertaining to whether there was or was not a migration of Aryan-language > speaking peoples into India. While some researchers may have only the > purest of academic reasons for hypothesizing _out of India_ alternative > explanations for commonalites of language and ritual elsewhere in ancient > Asia and Europe, there is a school of thought that believes attacks on > Muslims, and now Christians, are rationalized by their purpetrators > [including some VHP and Bajarang Dal members photographed and interviewed > in the current _IndiaToday International_, January 11,1999, pp. 10-13] > rationalized as _reconversion_ counterattacks against foreign ideologies. > This argument is harder to make if it must be conceded that the Vedic > peoples also migrated into the subcontinent. > I think this is very far fetched extrapolation to AIT theory. I would even use the word "absurd". Religious rivalry in India is a late phenomenon and many "hindus' who might be involved have little to do with the vedas. > As to why I should care about about the political ramifications of this > academic debate, let self interest suffice--I admit to hoping that India > shall remain a relatively safe _secular democracy_ to visit on research > forays for many decades to come. Unlike the real Taliban's Afghanistan, or > Prabhakaran's Eelam. > Indologists should have political pulls also! Sounds odd also. Astronomers claim - keep the nights dark, such that we can observe. It will be really horrible if provincial researchers make national policies! I personally believe that india and indians must protect themselves more regarding their individual self-interest as any nation on earth. Please don't take me wrong on this. We need this country and culture to be sustained by her people.. - Bm From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Wed Jan 13 10:07:31 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 13:07:31 +0300 Subject: Statue of the sacrificial horse Message-ID: <161227045197.23782.12793682474614678277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, can anybody give me any information or references on the origin of the custom to erect a statue of the sacrifitial horse after performing of the ashvamedha? What are the earliest examples of such custom, what text mentions it for the first time; were there any earlier forms of this practice such as making a wooden image of the horse, or something like that? Thanks in advance Ya.V. ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu vassilkov at hotmail.com From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Wed Jan 13 18:15:53 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 13:15:53 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990112153354.26459.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045087.23782.6559952046104306393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Mahayana was stamped out of Sri lanka. around 10th century. > Called "vaidula" heresy, abahayagiri etc., Hindu Gods > like Skanda-Murukan entered Sri Lankan Buddhism via > Mahayana. Could you kindly give some more details about this `stamping out' ? Thanks, Samar From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Wed Jan 13 19:18:40 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 14:18:40 -0500 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva In-Reply-To: <369B9A03.F7300361@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227045091.23782.5568001390449950240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > N. Ganesan wrote: > > > > "Siva Mahadeva, the Great God of Hinduism, has his origins > > firmly rooted in India. He does NOT come from Africa, > > Tibet or China. > > > > What about the IE homeland? Since you appear to tow the AIT line then > Rudra would be a Vedic Central Asian deity connected with Thor and > other Indo-European storm gods? Proof by Contradiction and Reductio ad absurdem - Dear Paul, I agree that N.Ganesan seems to be contradicting himself. I here below show that his arguments are internally inconsistent. He seems to be in favour of the Vedic origin of Shiva, since he has in the last few posts, stated something like the following: - " Shiva as mentioned in the oldest Tamil texts is White " - He does not include Central Asia in his list of places where Shiva did definitely not come. Thus, as Paul points out, he seems to hold on to the old rusty theory of Rudra being the progenitor of Shiva. - " Shiva Mahadeva, the Great God of Hinduism has his roots firmly in India". This statement, without any references and a mere appeal to Hindu identity would have been expected from some of the Vedic-Indus theorists or a one-month old RSS sevak. Instead, it is being made by `Dravidianist' Ganesan, classical supporter of Aryan Invasions ! Assuming N.Ganesan's arguments to be true, ( => stands for `implies that' ): Rudra gave rise to Shiva => Indus Valley is Vedic (since Rudra idols found at IVC sites) => No Aryan Invasion. Yet, some time back, Ganesan was arguing in favour of a Dravidian Indus and Aryan Invasions ! Now, he is saying exactly what the BJP is saying ! A remarkable change, indeed. In case he still believes in his Dravidian Indus and Aryan Invasions, I would like to know how he reconciles his concept of a White Shiva whose home is in Tibet and whose statues are found in Indus Valley with a Dravidian Indus ? Then, maybe, he favours the notion of the Dravidians having peacefully adopted the Aryan language and Aryan Shiva. But he has also written against this. So what next ? I do not intend to rake up the banned AIT, so let us not dwell on this here. Only intended to point out a contradiction. Samar From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Wed Jan 13 12:19:49 1999 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 14:19:49 +0200 Subject: A clarification (D. Sinor) Message-ID: <161227045104.23782.15272253722252224808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 8 Jan 99 at 14:06, N. Ganesan wrote: > Sinor has a lifelong interest in seeing how the West > learned about the East from medieval times. I have: > 1) D. Sinor, Western information on the Kitans and some > related questions. JAOS, 1995 > 2) D. Sinor, Foreigner-Barbarian-Monster > in Th. Bowie, East-West in art, Indiana UP, 1966. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan I hoped somebody better informed to comment on this, but apparently it is not happening. Denis Sinor is an American scholar of Hungarian origin and his main field of interest has been the history of Central Asia (and more widely Eurasia). He taught long time at Indiana University and is still working though old (born in 1916). The list of his publications is very long and also includes linguistics (so- called Altaic). Regards, Klaus Karttunen From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Wed Jan 13 19:33:59 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 14:33:59 -0500 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic In-Reply-To: <19990113010515.1029.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045093.23782.2763278631661842698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > > The University Grants Commission allocates funds for > research into Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian only. > This may be a vestige from Nehru era. A thorough knowledge of Arabic and Persian eases understanding of their derivative, Hindustani, which is the third most widely used language in the world, is the de facto lingua franca and effective national language of India and understood by more than half of all Indians. Hence their status as classical languages: like classical Latin giving birth to the modern Romance languages, Classical Arabic and Persian gave birth to Urdu and its derivative Hindustani. Hence their status as Classical Languages par excellence of the bulk of the Indian population. Moreover, a person speaking Hindustani can easily understand and write Arabic and or Persian with very little effort, while learning other classical languages is more difficult, but may be suitable for minorities. Samar From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 13 22:35:51 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 14:35:51 -0800 Subject: Kamban's Aryan In-Reply-To: <19981222133715.2859.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045131.23782.13553986640254944937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I know only one > instance in Alvar pAsurams that talks of > Krishna advising Arjuna. Alvar is clear that this > advice happended after the battle, not in the > thick of or before the battle. I think sweeping statements about the Divya Prabandham should only be made after a thorough study of all 4000 verses. I have not done such study; however, I know a little of what other scholars have done, and according to them, there are definite references to the Bhagavad Gita in the Alvars' verses. The following is based on my own recollection. To begin with, Tirumangai Alvar's set of 10 verses on Parthasarathy svAmi in at the Tiruvallikkeni temple speak repeatedly of Krishna as the charioteer, and the meaning of those verses are said to echo the teachings of the Gita. But more directly, see Periya Tirumoli 9.9.8, where Tirumangai Alvar speaks of Krishna's gracious words to Arjuna in front of the chariot. Tirumalisai Alvar's nAnmukan tiruvantAti (v. 71) refers to "mAyan ... anRu Otiya vAkku" (the words said by Krishna then) and this is understood to be a reference to the Gita as well. Mani From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Wed Jan 13 20:39:02 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 14:39:02 -0600 Subject: "Hindu writer who lives in New York" Message-ID: <161227045124.23782.11009980560404496010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Bijoy Misra to objected to my saying: >> ... While some researchers may have only the >> purest of academic reasons for hypothesizing _out of India_ alternative >> explanations for commonalites of language and ritual elsewhere in ancient >> Asia and Europe, there is a school of thought that believes attacks on >> Muslims, and now Christians, are rationalized by their purpetrators >> >> ... as _reconversion_ counterattacks against foreign ideologies. >> This argument is harder to make if it must be conceded that the Vedic >> peoples also migrated into the subcontinent. >> > >I think this is very far fetched extrapolation to AIT theory. >I would even use the word "absurd". Religious rivalry in India >is a late phenomenon and many "hindus' who might be involved >have little to do with the vedas. Sorry, but I'm unclear about where you feel the absurdity lies. With Mr. Varadarajan's contention that: > ...[certain Hindutva factions] have constructed a Manichaean world in which >Hindus are >"true" Indians and all others are "outsiders." The formulation is curious >since Islam came to India about 1,200 years ago, and Christianity arrived >even earlier. Some historians date India's Christian roots to the first >century A.D. Or do you agree with him [and me, incidently and many others] that such attempts to delegitimize non-Hindus as less than fully Indian is an absurd project, if done on the grounds that Hinduism [not just literally the Vedic traditions--but sanAtana Vedanta in the broadest sense] is _indigenous_ to the subcontinent whereas Islam and Christianity [if not also post-Enlightenment secular humanism while we're at it] are intrusive foreign imports...even after centuries of acculturation in India. If it is the former argument that you consider absurd, then as an attempt change your mind, I quote from the Indology archives a letter from Dominik that got published in Hinduism Today [without his permssion] back in mid-1995. His letter had been occasioned by their own publication of an extremely fanciful, revisionist timeline in which among other things, no hint of any Aryan migration into India remained: >I have read an account/review of your recent article on Indian history, >and I am shocked that you could promote such nonsense. >I have in the past enjoyed Hinduism Today, but this article and >the accompanying editorial are not just ridiculous, >but also play into the hands of fundamentalist revisionists who are dangerous. >In India today there is a strong movement amongst politically-motivated >right-wingers to find historical reasons to justify acts of communal >brutality and discrimination. Your article plays right into the hands of these >people. >Dominik Wujastyk, Bangalore, India... Again, I wish to reiterate my acknowledgement that the political dimensions of academic questions are dangerous and I wouldn't mind if this particular thread came to an end right away. I, for one, won't be contributing anything further on it. With only good will, Michael Rabe SXU & SAIC, Chicago From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 13 22:41:38 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 14:41:38 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures In-Reply-To: <19981223202053.6571.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045134.23782.17346958417025215699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Krishna is depicted as a handsome man teaching the Gita and offering solace ("mA sucaH") to his devotees at the ancient temple of Tiruvallikkeni, the middle of Chennai (Madras). This temple is at least as old as the early Alvars (6th century?), as Pey Alvar refers to the shrine as "allikkENi" in one of his verses. The apotheosis of the Gita is not new, at least among philosophers. It has long been one of the prasthAna-trayi (three fundamental texts) of Vedanta, and enjoys a prestigious place among smRiti texts. It is quoted in the same breath as the Upanishads by all Vedantic philosophers. I agree that the average middle-class Indian's obsession with the Gita (particularly in translation) is a phenomenon of this century. Mani > > 20th century Indian homes are filled with the > pictures/handicrafts of Krishna and Arjuna on > a chariot drawn by horses? How old is this > art motif? > > Is it created aftr Giithaa's rise to the position > of the Hindu equivalent of Bible and Koran? > Or, does this have an earlier representation? > How old is this in Indian art? > > For Krishna in the South, usually he is > Baalakrishna with butter or Kaaliyamardana, etc., From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 13 22:43:28 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 14:43:28 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures In-Reply-To: <19981223210136.715.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045137.23782.17312019134411348151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Can someone here in INDOLOGY check > Aazhvaar paasurams on TiruvallikkENi PaarthasArathy temple > please? > > Do the Alvars refer to Giithaa episodes? What are > the lines referring to Giithaa or vaarthai? > Does Arjuna's name come in TiruvallikkENi paacurams? > > Many thanks, > N. Ganesan Pardon me for the late response, but I only saw this now. Yes, Arjuna's name occurs in each of the paasurams as "Partha". It is clear to me that the Alvars knew of the Gita and revered it as Krishna's words. Mani From fademm at CASTLE.BEAVER.EDU Wed Jan 13 19:48:49 1999 From: fademm at CASTLE.BEAVER.EDU (Maureen Fadem) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 14:48:49 -0500 Subject: 90:98 vs 56:64-97 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19990113102552.00868d18@pacific.net.sg> Message-ID: <161227045122.23782.11318778513271056960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> salil, the same question you ask is being discussed on indology. :)) a good question. sometimes in good ol' america, we use certain ethnic terms quite wrongly. starting with indian, which, here, means native american. thus, the term hindu is often used to mean the actual meaning of indian--as if to be indian is to be hindu--an idea which makes one cringe so at its glaring ignorance. i wonder if the descriptive 'hindu writer' was not necessarily meant to have religious significance, but rather to have a cultural/ethnic connotation? ridiculous i know, but possibly true. and maybe inconsequential in light of the issues detailed in the article. best, maureen. ************************* Maureen Ellen Fadem fademm at castle.beaver.edu Do I dare Disturb the universe? In a minute there is time For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. --TS Eliot On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Salil Tripathi wrote: > Here's the same post, clarified for one ambiguity. Sorry! > > Salil > > Am I the only one to be concerned that Tunku Varadarajan is identified as "a > Hindu" writer? Do editors have to assume writers' faith when they write on > issues of this kind? > > I faced a similar problem once; I wrote a commentary critical of Babri > Masjid's destruction on Dec 7, 1992, ie, the day after, as it were. The > newspaper that published it, in Southeast Asia, waited four days, and after > that, insisted that it call me a Hindu. When I complained, they reluctantly > called me "an agnostic Hindu"--whatever that may mean. It appeared as such, > because I did want the piece to appear in print. I had said they could've > called me "an Indian journalist living in Singapore". So it is Tunku's turn > now to face a similar "identity crisis", I suppose! > > Salil > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 13 22:51:45 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 14:51:45 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227045140.23782.8372156973986561480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks a bunch. My nAlAyiram is on loan for now. What about ThirukkaNNamangai, 108 vaiNava tirupatikaL, or at Kanchi? Is anywhere Krishna, Arjuna, Chariot depicted? Inside the main sannati of Allikkeni, who are all represented? There is a whole team, I recall. Many thanks, N. Ganesan < Krishna is depicted as a handsome man teaching the Gita and offering solace ("mA sucaH") to his devotees at the ancient temple of Tiruvallikkeni, the middle of Chennai (Madras). This temple is at least as old as the early Alvars (6th century?), as Pey Alvar refers to the shrine as "allikkENi" in one of his verses. The apotheosis of the Gita is not new, at least among philosophers. It has long been one of the prasthAna-trayi (three fundamental texts) of Vedanta, and enjoys a prestigious place among smRiti texts. It is quoted in the same breath as the Upanishads by all Vedantic philosophers. I agree that the average middle-class Indian's obsession with the Gita (particularly in translation) is a phenomenon of this century. >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 13 22:53:41 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 14:53:41 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <19981225205059.23858.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045142.23782.17866066426709505055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Naga Ganesan writes: > > The Vaishnava bhakti tradition of the power of God > to cancel karma is similar the Mahayana doctrine > where bodhisattvas cancel the karma of those suffering > in different types of hell (cf. Har dayal, Bodhisattva > doctrine in Buddhist sanskrit lit.) > Are you implying that this is the origin of the Vaishnava doctrine? I find this a highly suspect premise, and I urge you to do further research before throwing presumptive statements out in a scholarly forum. The idea of a Creator God's ability to cancel karma is contained in many of the Upanishads, and one need not struggle to interpret them in this manner. For example: yadA paSya paSyati ... rukmavarNam kartAram ISam | tadA vidvAn puNyapApe vidhUya paramam sAmyam upaiti || (mundaka 3.1.3) [Pardon any errors, I am quoting from memory.] Here a vision of a Lord, described as the supreme Creator in earlier verses, is said to cause the knower to shed off all merit and demerit (karma) and attain extreme similarity to the Creator Itself. I don't mean this to be conclusive proof of the Vaishnava theory having its origin in the Vedas. At the same time, I find these short, one paragraph theories annoying, especially when they are apparently unresearched and therefore unsubstantiated. Mani From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 13 23:06:24 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 15:06:24 -0800 Subject: Early Giithaa sculptures Message-ID: <161227045144.23782.8692811177171005579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my original post, I asked whether the pAsurams on Allikkeni contain Giithaa or Vaarthai. Can you please give me what Alvar is saying in Allikkeni pasurams? I owe you a list of Murray Rajam's nAlAyiram publications. Will do that and pass them on to you. My Rajam prints are in India now. Regards N. Ganesan <<< Krishna is depicted as a handsome man teaching the Gita and offering solace ("mA sucaH") to his devotees at the ancient temple of Tiruvallikkeni, the middle of Chennai (Madras). This temple is at least as old as the early Alvars (6th century?), as Pey Alvar refers to the shrine as "allikkENi" in one of his verses. The apotheosis of the Gita is not new, at least among philosophers. It has long been one of the prasthAna-trayi (three fundamental texts) of Vedanta, and enjoys a prestigious place among smRiti texts. It is quoted in the same breath as the Upanishads by all Vedantic philosophers. I agree that the average middle-class Indian's obsession with the Gita (particularly in translation) is a phenomenon of this century. Mani >>> > > 20th century Indian homes are filled with the > pictures/handicrafts of Krishna and Arjuna on > a chariot drawn by horses? How old is this > art motif? > > Is it created aftr Giithaa's rise to the position > of the Hindu equivalent of Bible and Koran? > Or, does this have an earlier representation? > How old is this in Indian art? > > For Krishna in the South, usually he is > Baalakrishna with butter or Kaaliyamardana, etc., ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 13 23:11:38 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 15:11:38 -0800 Subject: Consciousness in visishtadvaita In-Reply-To: <11163961015231@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045146.23782.17489473673633354236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten wrote: > > "jnanasvarupamityetavannirdesyam cannot be taken to mean that the atman *is* > pure knowledge, but that the knowledge characteristic for the atman is a > svarupanirupanadharma 'an attribute describing the proper form' ... the > tenet that jnana is an attribute, not the essence, is fundamental to R.'s > doctrine." > So my question is: have I misunderstood Chari's (or > Desika's) intentions in making consciousness the substance of the atman, or > is this a post-Ramanuja doctrine of visishtadvaita, or is van Buitenen just > a little rash in completely denying jnana the role of a substance/essence? > > Many thanks in advance, > Martin Gansten In Visishtadvaita, there are two kinds of consciosness, attributive and substantive. The attributive is known as "dharma-bhUta-jnAna", and is liable to contraction or expansion. The substantive is known as "svarUpa-bhUta-jnAna" and is immutable. Fundamentally, the individual self is a "knower", not mere knowledge as held in schools of Advaita. The substantive consciousness is how the self knows itself -- it is what gives it its "I" consciousness, and fundamental to Visishtadvaita is the belief that all conscious entities experience this "I" at all times. The attributive consciousness is how the self knows things other than itself. Consciousness is like light; it is a means to know other things. The attributive consciousness is liable to expansion and contraction, corresponding directly to one's karma. If one is a tree, insect, or some other "low" life form, the theory is that one's attributive consciousness is extremely contracted, and unable to know much. In the state of liberation, on the other hand, one's attributive consciousness is infinite (just as God's is), and one has complete knowledge of everything. This is how the liberated individual can remain finite in substance, yet can experience the same bliss as God. So van Buitenen's statement is correct. "Knowledge" does not define the jIva, but it is a fundamental attribute of its svarUpa; because its consciousness is so important to its existence as "I", it is sometimes described as knowledge itself. However, the jIva is correctly an entity which has knowledge as a primary attribute; it is a _knower_ (and a ^^ doer, and a mode of God, etc.) Mani From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 13 23:18:59 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 15:18:59 -0800 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti In-Reply-To: <19990111183030.11327.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045148.23782.9310584422911655286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Naga Ganesan wrote: > AaNDaaL refers to preparations for Pongal day. I have > to check the exact lines. Actually, Andal does not refer to the "Pongal" day, but to the the preparation of sakkarai pongal (sweet pongal) during the month of maargazhi (December-January) before Pongal. The day on which sakkarai pongal is prepared is known today among Tamil Vaishnavas as as "kUDArai vellum". Andal describes devotees of Vishnu happily eating this pongal, sweetened by vellum (jaggery), and so rich with ghee that it drips to their elbows as they eat it. The dish known as Pongal is described in upa-purANAs as mudga-anna. This preparation is prepared (at least in orthodox Tamil Vaishnava households) everyday of maargazhi as an offering to God and then consumed. There is a reference in a Purana to this practice (Brahmanda Purana?). Regarding some other recent discussions: The word "bhakti" occurs in the Svetasvatara Upanishad. The date for this varies depending on whom you ask. The Alvars are not the first example of Vishnu bhakti in the Tamil country. The paripaaDal and silappadikAram contain lovely poems to Maal, who is none other than Vishnu. These texts refer to Vishnu bhakti in a rather advanced state. My surmise is that the Tamil culture provided a fertile ground for the simultaneous growth of Jain, Buddhist, and Vaishnava bhakti, followed shortly thereafter by Saiva bhakti. Mani From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 13 23:35:18 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 15:35:18 -0800 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti Message-ID: <161227045150.23782.4721551041541844069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Naga Ganesan wrote: > AaNDaaL refers to preparations for Pongal day. I have > to check the exact lines. Mani Varadarajan wrote: *Actually, Andal does not refer to the "Pongal" day, In Nachiyar tirumozi, spreading fine sand in front of the house on the day of thai - something like: "nuNmaNal parappi .." Can you please give me that line from ANDAL? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 13 23:38:51 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 15:38:51 -0800 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti Message-ID: <161227045154.23782.3058541730983863339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Actually, Andal does not refer to the "Pongal" day, but to the the preparation of sakkarai pongal (sweet pongal) during the month of maargazhi (December-January) before Pongal. The day on which sakkarai pongal is prepared is known today among Tamil Vaishnavas as as "kUDArai vellum". Andal describes devotees of Vishnu happily eating this pongal, sweetened by vellum (jaggery), and so rich with ghee that it drips to their elbows as they eat it. >>> What does ANDAL say of Sakkarai pongal? Her lines please. Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 13 23:51:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 15:51:07 -0800 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti Message-ID: <161227045158.23782.175667473689587238.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "... kUtArai vellum sIrk kOvin-thA!.... Atai utuppOm athanpinnE pARchoRu mUta ney peythu muzangkai vazhivArak kUti irun-thu kuLirn-thElOr empAvAi" If this is the poem that Mani Varadarajan is talking of Sakkarai Pongal, it is only talking of cooked rice (cORu) mixed with milk (pAl). This is not Pongal. Or, is it another poem where Pongal is mentioned? Obviously, everyone has to do more research. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Jan 14 00:42:43 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 16:42:43 -0800 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045156.23782.17330015762666341681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > > Op woensdag, 13-jan-99 schreef Paul Kekai Manansala: > > PKM> I totally disagree with your views on Tantrism in China. The whole > body > PKM> of Japanese tantrism came first from China. Also, Taoist ideas about > PKM> sex may be different in some ways from those of Tantrism, but there > are > PKM> also many similarities that can hardly be found anywhere else. > > Wrong again, there've been quite a few orgiastic groups among the gnostics > in Egypt (a certain Basilides was famous) and in the European middle ages, > you can also find similarites in the lives of Greek Stoics. > Well, I wan't referring to "orgiastic groups." I suppose they had these in the Malay Archipelago and Tahiti as well. The idea of yin-yang, yab-yum, siva-sakti as related to ritual sex though is what I find common. > PKM> There is no need to refer me to "Tibetologists" or "Sinologists" if > you > PKM> by that you mean the standard Western views. These are and have long > PKM> been controlled by strong bias that do not allow openly for ideas that > PKM> contradict their world view. The latter tends to have a > monodirectional > PKM> and racial view of the flow of culture. > > That seems a strong bias to me, the more considering the fact that there are> quite a few Japanese and Chinese sinologists and Tibetologists (even an> occasional Tibetan has escaped the claws of the church and made a carreer> in science). There are some Western scholars who would also agree with Tantric texts regarding Mahacina as well as Indian, Tibetan and Chinese ones. Samar mentioned the works of one Indian sch>olar. And you seem to forget that texts seldomly lie. If you read> Chinese and >Tibetan texts there's little room for bias left. The texts state that Tantrism or some doctrines in Tantrism come from Mahacina. I agree they don't lie. How open are> you for ideas that contradict you're worldview? > Probably more open than you. I don't have as much invested in centuries of racial science. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala There are some Western scholars who would also agree with Tantric texts regarding Mahacina as well as Indian, Tibetan and Chinese ones. Samar mentioned the works of one Indian scholar. From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Wed Jan 13 21:43:28 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 16:43:28 -0500 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045099.23782.13570609035241180451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, jonathan silk wrote: > >N. Ganesan wrote: > >"Siva Mahadeva, the Great God of Hinduism, has his origins > >firmly rooted in India. He does NOT come from Africa, > >Tibet or China. > > >Tantrism also has origins from the mystic traditions > >of India. Tantrism did not arrive from Tibet, Africa > >or China or Arabia or whatever. > > Of course! This goes against what the Tantras themselves say, which proves that the older theories are false. That the statement "Siva Mahadeva, the Great God of Hinduism, has his origins in India", unsubstantiated by any facts whatsoever, should, in the days when Christians are being persecuted in India, receive support from Europeans, is strange indeed. > This whole thread seems to be written from a standpoint of high > imagination -- to say the least. Is not Indology an ACADEMIC list? Please! > Quite a bit is known about Tantrism, none of which seems however to be > known to some the previous contributors to this thread... One of the references I had given was `Obscure Religious Cults' by Dasgupta, 1969. If the `what is known' you mention pre-date this, then these theories are likely to go the way of 1960s automobiles: the scrapyard. The major fact is that `what is known' is highly obscurantist in nature. Here are some of the humourous theories that are often still propounded: - "Tantrism arose when the lay disciples of Buddha decided to bend some rules, thereby creating Tantric Buddhism which later somehow gave birth to Tantric `Hinduism'". Perhaps the teahers themselves also cooperated in this bending of rules. Why Jains did not decide to bend some rules too is also ignored. - "Tantrism arose when the Buddhists started inducting nuns; these women then corrupted Buddhism". Why Tantrism didn't arise among Christians, who also have nuns, is not answered. But, then of course maybe the occurrence of Sheela-na-Gigs etc. on Irish chapels is sufficient proof of secret Tantrism having been practiced here also.. - "Tantrism arose due to the growth of Mother Goddess cults in the Middle Ages." Where these Mother Goddess cults came from is happily ignored by this branch. - Buddha himself was Tantric, hiding his secrets till a better day, giving birth to Tantrism when his disciples discovered them hidden in the Buddhist texts. That Buddha was an ascetic is ignored; suitable Shaktis are invented as his companions in Nirvana. In short, all the older theories (prior to Dasgupta's monumental work) were proposed by people who apparently couldn't be bothered with minor things like reading the Tantras, and always involved some origin in Buddhism, and then a transition to `Hinduism'. As long as there are such people, then there will be theories claiming that the Buddha was the first Tantric and the Egyptians were Shaivite because they worshipped Osiris. Because they are `older' some people will always support them. > Is there no way > to get Indology back on an Academic track? To do this, people should give references, and more importantly, `sledgehammer' points or facts. So far, only one side has done this in this thread. Samar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 14 01:14:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 17:14:19 -0800 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti Message-ID: <161227045167.23782.12752666551177800161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mani Varadarajan wrote: <<< Actually, Andal does not refer to the "Pongal" day, but to the the preparation of sakkarai pongal (sweet pongal) during the month of maargazhi (December-January) before Pongal. The day on which sakkarai pongal is prepared is known today among Tamil Vaishnavas as as "kUDArai vellum". Andal describes devotees of Vishnu happily eating this pongal, sweetened by vellum (jaggery), and so rich with ghee that it drips to their elbows as they eat it. >>> << What does ANDAL say of Sakkarai pongal? Her lines please. >> ANDAL does NOT refer to Sarkkarai Pongal at all. What I originally meant was ANDAL says on an important day of the month of "thai", the month after Maargazhi, she spreads fresh, fine sands in the courtyard. In one of her poems she says something like: "nuNmaNal parappi" If you get me that line, it refers to preparations for the Pongal festival. In scholarly forums, I generally give quotes, references. Not only advice, but reciprocity in references, quotes also is expected. Best regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Wed Jan 13 22:16:35 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 17:16:35 -0500 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045102.23782.4717595541857806959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: >It's a very peculiar point of view, taken into account the fact that the >Chinese never accepted the typical tantric rites, because they were >shocked by it. That goes for Confucianism. We are talking about mainly Tibet and perhpas Taoism. Taoism does not display the attitudes you mention. >It would also appear very strange that >quite a few Tibetans took many pains and gave lots of money to Indian >tantric adepts in order to be initiated in the secrets of tantra. But the first Indian Tantric, Vasistha, learned Tantra in Tibet (cf. the first post in this thread). Moreover, Japanese scholars go to the USA to study Christianity. That does not imply that the USA is the home of Christianity. It is possible that East Indics further developed Tantrism, and were hence in great demand in Tibet. They were not in such great demand in India, from the exodus to Tibet, and otherwise they would not have gone. > Tantra was > unknown in Tibet before the middle of hte 8th century, still the > Guhyasamaaja tantra has been dated before the sixth century. Again, this is based on dating etc. and is subject to revision. Many of the Tantras survive only in Tibetan and in no other language. > What the old > Bonreligion was about is still open for speculation, because we no > documents from the kingdom of Zangzung have been found. As per legend, the ancient Bon dieties were subjugated into the Buddhist pantheon. It is only natural to assume that the rites with which they wer worshipped also entered Tibetan Buddhism in this way. Budhism in Tibet did not eradicate the pre-Buddhist deities, it subsumed them, and in turn got modified. Thus, one still can reconstruct the Bon religion. > The new Bon was >nothing but a reversed copy of the existing buddhist practices in Tibet. Bon pre-dated Buddhism. It experienced late revivals after Buddhism came. >The older tantras say nothing about mahacina. That depends on the dating of the Tantras, and the survivability. I can always say that the older ones are lost, and we will reach a stalemate in this. Those that survive mention Tibet as the source. >Besides I think the old >yogis were all but geographical specialists, >so I wouldn't take a few references to a >mythical country called 'mahacina' as a scientific proof. That is why they confused Tibet with Mahacina. Mahacina, or Great China, is not mythical. It is known that it was situated beyond the Himalayas. Hsuan Tsang and Fa-hsien must have told some people about China. The invasion from China after Harsha's death must have instilled some sence of China. >The passages you >refer to are not convincing since they are the only ones among a vast >body of tantric litterature. Would like to see some quotes stating that the 5th Veda fell somewhere outside Tibet, and that Vasishta travelled to somewhere other than Tibet to learn Tantra. The vast body of literature has so far not furnished us with any other sources. >I suggest you ask tibetologists and sinologists for established facts >before you make all too bold statements. Any Tibetologists are welcome to contribute their learned opinions. > And last but >not least: the taoist ideas about sex are very different from those I > read in the tantras. >I've never read in tantras that you have to copulate with >as much people of the other sex in order to strengthen you lifeforce. There are several similarities, the technique of retention, for instance. The postures prescribed are also very similar. Then Shiva-Shakti is the same as Yin-Yang. >Some gentlemen on this list who are speculating about an African Ziva >seem to think that if two things look alike one must be the orginal and the >other the copy. Levi-Strauss gave an exposition of this fallacy in > European antropology in his 'Antropologie Structurale'. > The bottomline is some > things just happen to look alike! This is based not just on a similarity of Sivas. There is anthropological and genetic proof of the unity of Dravidian and African peoples. If the Dravidians came from Africa, then they may have brought their religion along as well. Samar From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Jan 14 01:21:36 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 17:21:36 -0800 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva Message-ID: <161227045162.23782.5378006099105577927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > > Op donderdag, 14-jan-99 schreef Samar Abbas: > > SA> On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > SA>> It's a very peculiar point of view, taken into account the fact that > the > SA>> Chinese never accepted the typical tantric rites, because they were > SA>> shocked by it. > > SA> That goes for Confucianism. We are talking about mainly Tibet and > perhpas > SA> Taoism. Taoism does not display the attitudes you mention. > > Taoism is about making an immortal body not about getting liberated from > samsara. > Who said anything about samsara? The alchemy of Taoism has much in common with that of Tantrism including the centrality of the interaction of opposites. > SA> Then Shiva-Shakti is the same as Yin-Yang. > > This is pure nonsens yin and yang are not antropological concepts, but more > like the gu.na's in saamkhya. Originally they were the shady and the sunny > side of a mountain. > This is erroneous. Yin and yang have stood for opposites from some of the earliest literature to include male and female, receptive and creative. Yin and Yang are the original creative forces from which the entire universe evolved according to the Nei Ching (Manual of the Yellow Emperor). A quote from Veith's translation: "The principle of Yin and Yang is the basis of the entire universe. It is the principle of creation. It brings about the transformation to parenthood; it is the root and source of life and death..." Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 14 01:42:42 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 17:42:42 -0800 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti Message-ID: <161227045172.23782.17278244301637582608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > ANDAL does NOT refer to Sarkkarai Pongal at all. My apologies. While Andal does not refer specifically to sakkarai pongal, she speaks of a milk and rice preparation (paal sOru), presumably cooked, to which loads of ney (ghee) are added. I presume this means a form of pongal; further, the only kind of pongal cooked in milk with which I am familiar is the sweet variety, or sakkarai pongal. I think this is a reasonable extrapolation. You refer to a paasuram in which Andal mentions the practice of drawing a tiruppiNDi (kOlam) using fine grains in front of her house. This paasuram is the first of naacciyaar tirumozi: tai oru tingaLum tarai viLakki tan maNDalam ittu mAsi munnAl ayya nuN maNal koNDu teru aNindu azhaginukku alangarittu ananga dEvA! uyyavumAnkolO enru Solli unnaiyum umbiyaiyum tozhudEn veyyaDOr tazhaL umizh cakkarakkai vEnkadavaRku ennai vidikkiRRiyE Rough translation: Throughout the month of tai (mid-Jan. to mid-Feb.), every day let me purify the place where I am going to worship kAmadEvan and draw beautiful kolams (drawings). Then in the first half of mAsi (second half of Feb.), I will fill the street on which he is going to walk over to come and bless me, with smooth sand so that he will not feel any roughness on his feet. After he comes to my house and sits on the seat arranged for him, I will pray to him and to his brother, sAman, together. Both of them will be compassionate to me and bless me with the great opportunity to personally serve tiruvEnkaDamuDaiyAn, who is carrying in His hand the cakrAyudham which is emanating hot fire sparks. (taken from http://www.best.com/~mani/sv/alvars/andal/nt/nt-index.html) There is no specific mention of the Pongal festival, nor do I see any practices unique to Pongal celebrations in her poems. Do you know which part of naacciyaar tirumozi you are thinking of? Mani From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 14 02:04:05 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 18:04:05 -0800 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti Message-ID: <161227045174.23782.6470332544575551306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< This paasuram is the first of naacciyaar tirumozi: tai oru tingaLum tarai viLakki tan maNDalam ittu mAsi munnAl ayya nuN maNal koNDu teru aNindu azhaginukku alangarittu ananga dEvA! uyyavumAnkolO enru Solli unnaiyum umbiyaiyum tozhudEn veyyaDOr tazhaL umizh cakkarakkai vEnkadavaRku ennai vidikkiRRiyE Rough translation: Throughout the month of tai (mid-Jan. to mid-Feb.), every day let me purify the place where I am going to worship kAmadEvan and draw beautiful kolams (drawings). Then in the first half of mAsi (second half of Feb.), I will fill the street on which he is going to walk over to come and bless me, with smooth sand so that he will not feel any roughness on his feet. After he comes to my house and sits on the seat arranged for him, I will pray to him and to his brother, sAman, together. Both of them will be compassionate to me and bless me with the great opportunity to personally serve tiruvEnkaDamuDaiyAn, who is carrying in His hand the cakrAyudham which is emanating hot fire sparks. >>> What is the poem next to this and its translation? Taken together, ANDAL might have used the common Pongal preparations to suit her purpose. Indeed, the prayer to kAma/manmata is rare and she might have used the Pongal festivities to talk about her prayers to kAma. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Jan 14 04:24:58 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 18:24:58 -1000 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic In-Reply-To: <19990113010515.1029.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045183.23782.15802853036240140577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > From the draft copy submitted to Govt. of India from > Institute of Asian studies, Madras entitled as > Tamil as a Classical language, [...deleted...] Dear Ganesan, You provide a great service by reminding people that "Indology" can't be just "North Indiology". So I hate to pick on you. But... > Because Tamil is classified by GOI as a modern Indian > language (MIL) and a regional language, the growth in its > reasearch avenues are held up by delays and lack of funds. You mean modern languages in India are less funded than classical languages? E.g., Sanskrit/Persian/Arabic are better funded than Tamil or Hindi? I doubt it. Do you have some numbers? > The University Grants Commission allocates funds for > research into Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian only. At last -- one specific concrete statement! But is it true? Really, does the UGC allocate no funds for Tamil, Hindi,...? All their cash goes into Sanskrit/Arabic/Persian? Regards, Raja. PS: Unless specific facts are cited, this is my last email on this topic. From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Jan 13 13:43:12 1999 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 18:43:12 +0500 Subject: Classical vs. Modern Message-ID: <161227045108.23782.5002856849052635751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some members make it their mission to sing the glory of one language and one culture (?), i.e. Tamil. The pathetic appeal of one list member to place Tamil on the same footing as the Classical languages-- Sanskrit, Persian and Arabic in India-- sounds ridiculous. Tamil is a modern language and not a classical language. Classical lgs are not the mother tongues of any segment of natives in India. In the western world, only Latin and Greek qualify as classical languages. Classical lgs in India get much less support than modern lgs. The modern lgs are encougared at the state as well as federal levels. Modern lgs are used widely-- in education, media, administration, etc. There are no films made in India in the classical lgs (only two or three in Skt.). I do not know why some of these members childishly say that more funds would come if Tamil were regarded a classical lg. You cannot promote the interests of a lg through internet by quoting things from a lg on every possible pretext. Those who have such love should have stayed back in India instead of going for greener pastures in a foreign country and then start doing this kind of propaganda ad nauseum. What are they gaining? Members are having lot of fun from such postings. This trend has increased recently. I urge upon such members to see reason and and exercise some restraint in their postings. The limit was saying that one particular book must be sold cheaply in India because it made a guess that the Mohanjodaro lg could be an early form of Dravidian. It was nothing more than a guess. Scholars have speculated, writing volumes without proving anything. How this appeal improves the cause or status of Tamil or Dravidian, God alone knows. Isn't this too childish? My friends and compatriots, please stop sending such postings which betray our ignorance. As an elderly person, I think I have the right to correct my younger compatriots. Best regards, Krishnamurti ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 (A.P.), India Telephone:40-7019665 E-mail: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 14 02:46:36 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 18:46:36 -0800 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti Message-ID: <161227045179.23782.1272910752493583032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Regarding some other recent discussions: The word "bhakti" occurs in the Svetasvatara Upanishad. The date for this varies depending on whom you ask. >>> I quoted earlier: p. 32, Har Dayal, The Bodhisattva doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit literature: "In fact, the very word bhakti, as a technical religious term, occurs for the first time in Indian literature in a Buddhist treatise and not in a Hindu scripture. The TheragAthA speaks of bhatti: 'so bhattimA nAma ca hoti paNDito JatvA ca dhammesu visesi assa'. This anthology contains verses that go back to the earliest period of the history of Buddhism, and its final redaction took place in the middle of the third century BC." Is the Svetasvatara Upanishad older than TheragAthaa? The latest translation of Upanishads from OxfordUP does not think so. <<< The Alvars are not the first example of Vishnu bhakti in the Tamil country. The paripaaDal and silappadikAram contain lovely poems to Maal, who is none other than Vishnu. These texts refer to Vishnu bhakti in a rather advanced state... >>> The TirumAl portions in paripaaTal and Cilampu are well known. Don't know who said "Alvars are the first example of TirumAl bhakti in the Tamil country". Definitely, it is NOT me. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From thompson at JLC.NET Thu Jan 14 00:27:46 1999 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 19:27:46 -0500 Subject: ahi.msaa in Hindu texts In-Reply-To: <000501be3d83$4a55ce20$772cf78c@patsy> Message-ID: <161227045165.23782.14148025463092554352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:56 AM 1/11/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Hanns Peter Schmidt, > THe Origin of AhiMsA. Melanges d'Indianism a la memoire de Louis Renou. >Paris 1980 > AhiMsA and Rebirth' in Inside the Texts, Beyond the Texts: New approaches >to the study of the Veda,' M. Witzel, editor, 1997 > I agree with Carlos Lopez that these two articles are a good place to start. I would also add that though the term ahiMsA itself does not occur in the RV we do find forms like a'hiMsat, a'hiMsAna, and a'hiMsyamAna, which suggest that the concept is known already in the RV. And if we consider RV a'ghnyA, which = Avestan ag at niia*, 'not to be harmed', then it is likely that something rather like the ahiMsA doctrine was known in Indo-Iranian times. See the famous 'Lament of the Cow', Yasna 29 of the Avestan Gathas. a'ghnyA has been discussed by Narten in her edition of the Yasna HaptaNhAiti, though I don't recall that she makes any connection with ahiMsA. Is anyone aware of more recent discussion of these terms? Sorry if this is tardy, George Thompson [* the character _ at _ represents schwa, for lack of a better representation] >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf >> Of Kristen >> Hardy >> Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 11:08 AM >> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >> Subject: ahi.msaa in Hindu texts >> >> >> Dear List-Members, >> >> Could anyone on the list advise me as to when the >> term "ahi.msaa" >> first came to be used in orthodox Hindu literature? Does the >> word exist in the >> Vedic sa.mhitaas (and if so, in what context)? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Kristen Hardy, >> (student of Religion and Sanskrit), >> University of Manitoba >> >> umhardy at cc.umanitoba.ca >> > > From thompson at JLC.NET Thu Jan 14 01:22:19 1999 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 20:22:19 -0500 Subject: ahi.msaa in Hindu texts In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990113192746.007af430@mailhost.jlc.net> Message-ID: <161227045170.23782.15254318149947834468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:27 PM 1/13/1999 -0500, I wrote: > I should have added the point that I assume no etymological connection between ahiMsA [from hiS-] and aghnyA [from han-]. The popular derivation of ahiMsA from a desiderative of han- is probably wrong, as Schmidt has pointed out in the articles mentioned by Carlos. GT From fademm at CASTLE.BEAVER.EDU Thu Jan 14 02:13:13 1999 From: fademm at CASTLE.BEAVER.EDU (Maureen Fadem) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 21:13:13 -0500 Subject: Tunku and Hindu/Indian (fwd) Message-ID: <161227045176.23782.1474035668901563378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> fyi y'all... thanks for the input salil. ************************* Maureen Ellen Fadem fademm at castle.beaver.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:05:31 +0000 From: Salil Tripathi To: SASIALIT at LISTSERV.RICE.EDU Subject: Tunku and Hindu/Indian Maureen, on another newslist, Tunku Varadarajan has said he asked NYT to call him a Hindu. I suppose the matter ends there--you might want to tell your Indology friends. Salil From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Wed Jan 13 19:20:04 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 21:20:04 +0200 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: <369AA7A5.1680FA73@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227045097.23782.17214175956812258303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op dinsdag, 12-jan-99 schreef Paul Kekai Manansala: PKM> Mahacina does not necessarily refer to China. To which other places you think that would be However, I don't agree PKM> with your theories regarding texts. We don't even know if Tantra PKM> practices were originally written or oral traditions. We don't have PKM> Saivite texts from IVC, but there is good reason to believe a prototype PKM> of some of the main forms of Siva came from that culture. PKM> And the idea of Tantric influences from Mahacina is not what I say, but PKM> what the Tantric texts themselves say. It's a very peculiar point of view, taken into account the fact that the Chinese never accepted the typical tantric rites, because they were shocked by it. The Chenyen or True Word in Chinese buddhism is a mixture of confucianism and lower level tantra, which is not sexually oriented and doesn't use skulls in its rites. It would also appear very strange that quite a few Tibetans took many pains and gave lots of money to Indian tantric adepts in order to be initiated in the secrets of tantra. Some of these travels between the 8th and 10th centruy are documented. Tantra was unknown in Tibet before the middle of hte 8th century, still the Guhyasamaaja tantra has been dated before the sixth century. What the old Bonreligion was about is still open for speculation, because we no documents from the kingdom of Zangzung have been found. The new Bon was nothing but a reversed copy of the existing buddhist practices in Tibet. The older tantras say nothing about mahacina. Besides I think the old yogis were all but geographical specialists, so I wouldn't take a few references to a mythical country called 'mahacina' as a scientific proof. The passages you refer to are not convincing since they are the only ones among a vast body of tantric litterature. I suggest you ask tibetologists and sinologists for established facts before you make all too bold statements. I've not read anything in tantras like the Guhyasamaaja, Cakrasamvaara or Hevajra that suggests any Chinese influence. And last but not least: the taoist ideas about sex are very different from those I read in the tantras. I've never read in tantras that you have to copulate with as much people of the other sex in order to strengthen you lifeforce. Furthermore the goal of the older buddhist and hindutantras is moksha and not immortality. Some gentlemen on this list who are speculating about an African Ziva seem to think that if two things look alike one must be the orginal and the other the copy. Levi-Strauss gave an exposition of this fallacy in European antropology in his 'Antropologie Structurale'. The bottomline is some things just happen to look alike! Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 14 05:21:42 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 21:21:42 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045186.23782.5677859512586676861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > > The Vaishnava bhakti tradition of the power of God > to cancel karma is similar the Mahayana doctrine > where bodhisattvas cancel the karma of those suffering > in different types of hell (cf. Har dayal, Bodhisattva > doctrine in Buddhist sanskrit lit.) > <<< Are you implying that this is the origin of the Vaishnava doctrine? I find this a highly suspect premise, and I urge you to do further research before throwing presumptive statements out in a scholarly forum. >>> I am not implying this. It is Har Dayal, Bodhisattva doctrine, 1932 For example, p.36 "Although the idea of bhakti originated among the Buddhists and was well adopted in self-defence by the Hindus". One author who has worked for decades on MBh. told me: "For a brief formulation, I would say I agree with those who see the Gita as in some aspects (and not minor ones) an answer to Buddhism." Quite a few scholars has written about the connections between Buddhism and Bhagavadgiitaa. Indira Vishvanathan Peterson, Prof. of Sanskrit writes in The Norton Anthology, World Masterpieces, p. 958, 1995: "There is reason to believe that the Gita, originally an independent philosophical dialogue similar to earlier and contemporary texts such as the Upanishads and the Buddhist scriptures, was deliberately placed in the popular MBh. epic.., This new configuration of elements fortified a view that was at once revolutionary for its time (ca. first century AD) and designed to preserve the Hindu social hierarchy. By the end of the first century BC, the Buddhist and Jain religions had gained a considerable following among the Indian masses and among kings and merchants as well. Focusing on the problem of karma - the belief that all actions involve inevitable consequences that must be suffered thru' many lives- Buddhism in particular offered people from all walks of life a religious path on which ethical action could be combined with contemplative spiritual practices, eventually leading to liberation from the burden of karma.In the Hindu social order, on the other hand, rigid and hierarchical correlations between birth and occupation locked people into existential situations that held no such prospect of ultimate freedom. .. The Gita appears to have been the response of brahman thinkers who stood to lose the most from the potential disintegration of the Hindu social system. Thru' Krishna's teachings, the anonymous author of the Gita articulates a new doctrine that will justify the hierarchies of class and social duty (he uses the word lokasaMgraha, social solidarity) at the same time that it offers universal access to the ultimate goal of emancipation. .. The text synthesizes the contemplative vision of the Buddhists and the sages of the Upanishads..." I am confidant of these theories especially when they are apparently well researched and therefore highly substantiated. Coming back to Tamil, seeing the central importance to Gita in 20th century Indian national discourse much similar to Islamic Koran or Christian Bible, it is indeed surprising that 1) no ancient sculptures or 2) no line in nAlAyira divya prabandham of Alvars speaks of KRSNArujuna saMvAdam!! In fact, I know only one instance where Krishna advises PaNDavas in nAlAyiram. That is after the war! Please give me 1) lines from any Alvar talking of Krishna-Arjuna conversation or 2) references on the relations between Buddhism and Giitaa. With kind regards, N. Ganesan <<< The idea of a Creator God's ability to cancel karma is contained in many of the Upanishads, and one need not struggle to interpret them in this manner. For example: yadA paSya paSyati ... rukmavarNam kartAram ISam | tadA vidvAn puNyapApe vidhUya paramam sAmyam upaiti || (mundaka 3.1.3) [Pardon any errors, I am quoting from memory.] Here a vision of a Lord, described as the supreme Creator in earlier verses, is said to cause the knower to shed off all merit and demerit (karma) and attain extreme similarity to the Creator Itself. I don't mean this to be conclusive proof of the Vaishnava theory having its origin in the Vedas. At the same time, I find these short, one paragraph theories annoying, especially when they are apparently unresearched and therefore unsubstantiated. >>>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 14 03:42:08 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 22:42:08 -0500 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045181.23782.15519992369430317659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > One of the references I had given was `Obscure Religious Cults' by >Dasgupta, 1969. If the `what is known' you mention pre-date this, then >these theories are likely to go the way of 1960s automobiles: the >scrapyard. I think you owe it to yourself and your audience to be a bit more careful. If you had read the prefaces to this book, you would see that it was written in 1939. A Second edition was published in 1962, reprinted thereafter several times. The Preface to the 2nd edition lists the works which were taken into account in the revisions made, according to the author, "here and there"; no work is later than Snellgrove's 1959 edition of the Hevajratantra. In other words, this is a work of 40 years ago. Quite a bit has gone on in the world of Indian and Tantric studies in that time... Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Jan 13 19:35:30 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 00:35:30 +0500 Subject: SV: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands Message-ID: <161227045120.23782.12685672210466153156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:52 12.01.99 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Therefore, I think the acid test is whether a person with a >totalitarian past loses his or her old ideas in a democratic setting and adopts >new attitudes. [...] Their extremism was born in difficult times, and was >sometimes cured in a more benevolent society. Therefore, we have to judge their >work by its merit, not by the ideological past of the author. The person >writing in 1960 or 1970 may be a very different person from the one that wrote >in 1940. That is the whole point. What remains of a person's thoughts / theories etc. when the uglier things are removed? Are they meaningful / useful? Hence I mentioned Frauwallner as an example. This same question can be repeated innumerable times, in different settings. E.g., Shankaracharya was a rather ugly casteist, in spite of his advaitavaada. For that reason, there are modern authors who condemn each and every thing he has done and written. Is this right? Shankara never recanted. If Jung ever was a real Nazi, he did recant (at least implicitly, as I have already mentioned). >> And for everybody's information: I am not a (neo-)Nazi and am not German / >> Swiss / Austrian / Rumanian / Ukrainian / Finnish / Italian / Spanish etc. >> So none of that kind of innuendo will stick. > >My goodness, Robert, what ARE you then????? Yes, it's embarrassing, isn't it... not even any of all that. I suppose that I'm just a very nasty guy. :-))))) Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 14 13:01:06 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 05:01:06 -0800 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva Message-ID: <161227045202.23782.8637238244916765720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Apologies for the `name-calling'. I didn't think I was too bad, because I put it in quotes to shorten a longer description. Did not anticipate that the phrase `Dravidianist' I used below would cause such pain. Apologies to N.Ganesan if he felt offended at being called `Dravidianist'. >>> NOT AT ALL, Samar. Even in sleep, I would not be offended if anyone calls me Dravidianist! I will be in an illustrious company of Savants. Just for pure love of Tamil and things Dravidian, I do these things. Spend lots of money and time too for Tamil. Somebody says Tamil is not a classical langauge. Try it with Greeks: Tell a Greek that Greek is not a Classical langauge, Will they buy this if told?? I doubt very much. Best regards, N. Ganesan PS: Short on time, I will write what I know of Indian origins of Saivism soon. I am very skeptical of Tibet or African 'siva. I have not read your posts of yesterday, will do it soon. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 14 13:07:16 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 05:07:16 -0800 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva Message-ID: <161227045204.23782.8341957504228632079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > `Dravidianist' Ganesan, classical supporter of Aryan Invasions ! Of course! I took on them for the last 5 years, check the archives- Frawley and various shadows of Frawley. I would say Aryan Migration. The varNa exploitation was not gentle at all. While coming in, it might have been gentle but not later. (I know Sanskritized Elites of India will have a different opinion). Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Thu Jan 14 08:03:50 1999 From: fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (fo8z003) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 08:03:50 +0000 Subject: Chatterji Commemoration Vol. -Reply Message-ID: <161227045190.23782.16770524191255686080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks, Allen. Please airmail the copy at your earliest convenience to: Ashok Aklujkar Apt 102 Rothenbaumchaussee 34 Gaestehaus der Universitaet D-20148 Hamburg Germany. Also, kindly let me know how much I owe you for this copy as well as the copy you sent earlier of the Jagad-guru (or whatever the precise title is). I do not recall having reimbursed you for the latter. I will here in Germany until the end of August. Happy new year. -- ashok Allen W Thrasher wrote: > > Ashok, > > I have copied the article and will send it to you. It is from the > 1981 Burdwan Commemoration volume. What is your current earthmail > address? > > Allen > > Below are the catalog records for the two SKC Festschriften: > > ACCESSION: 26716575 > TITLE: Suniti Kumar Chatterji jubilee volume : > presented on the occasion of his sixty-fifth birthday (26th > > November, 1955) > PLACE: [Poona : > PUBLISHER: Linguistic Society of India], > YEAR: 1955 > PUB TYPE: Book > FORMAT: xix, 344 p., [3] leaves of plates : port. > ; 25 cm. > SERIES: Indian linguistics ; v. 16 > NOTES: Cover title: Chatterji jubilee volume. > Includes bibliographical references. > SUBJECT: > Chatterji, Suniti Kumar, -- 1890-1977. > Linguistics. > OTHER: Chatterji, Suniti Kumar, 1890-1977. > Linguistic Society of India. > Chatterji jubilee volume > > ACCESSION: 13670584 > TITLE: Suniti Kumar Chatterji commemoration volume > > PLACE: [Burdwan] : > PUBLISHER: University of Burdwan, > YEAR: 1981 > PUB TYPE: Book > FORMAT: ii, 327 p., [1] leaf of plates : port. ; > 23 cm. > NOTES: Spine title: S.K. Chatterji commemoration > volume. > Includes bibliographies. > SUBJECT: > Chatterji, Suniti Kumar, -- 1890-1977. > India > -- Languages. > OTHER: Mallik, Bhaktiprasad. > S.K. Chatterji commemoration volume. > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > Senior Reference Librarian > Southern Asia Section > Library of Congress > Asian Division > LJ150 > 101 Independence Ave., SE > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > USA > tel. 202-707-3732 > fax 202-707-1724 > email: athr at loc.gov > > The usual disclaimers apply. From fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Thu Jan 14 07:19:18 1999 From: fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (aklujkar) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 08:19:18 +0100 Subject: Chatterji Commemoration Vol. Message-ID: <161227045192.23782.10950839530498580715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My thanks to Allen Thrasher for locating the above-mentioned volume and to Swagata Pandit for making available to me a copy of the summary publishedby the author of the needed article -- summary published earlier in _All India Oriental Conference, Summary Papers 27_, pp. 231-232. From fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Thu Jan 14 07:19:20 1999 From: fo8z003 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (aklujkar) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 08:19:20 +0100 Subject: Chatterji Commemoration Vol. Message-ID: <161227045195.23782.3906501291835584157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My thanks to Allen Thrasher for locating the above-mentioned volume and to Swagata Pandit for making available to me a copy of the summary publishedby the author of the needed article -- summary published earlier in _All India Oriental Conference, Summary Papers 27_, pp. 231-232. -- ashok aklujkar From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jan 14 08:01:07 1999 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 09:01:07 +0100 Subject: Consciousness in visishtadvaita In-Reply-To: <10383754401976@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045200.23782.18171597553638288021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin, Your suspicion about DBJ and Svarupa jnana reminds me of comments Prof. R Balasubramanian used to make about it in Madras years ago. If you can get a copy, see R. Balasubramanian's "Some Problems in the Epistemology and Metaphysics of Ramanuja" (Prof. L. Venkataratnam Endowment Lectures 1975-76) reprinted in Journal of Madras University volume L, no 2, July 1978.) Without choosing sides, Advaitins see certain logical consequences of this 2-pronged jnana and Visistadvaitins do not. John Grimes >Dear Mani, > >Thanks for your reply. However, I wished to know specifically if the two >kinds of knowledge (svarupa- and dharmabhuta-) are mentioned explicitly in >any of Ramanuja's writings. Do you know? > >>In Visishtadvaita, there are two kinds of consciosness, >>attributive and substantive. [...] >>Fundamentally, the individual self is a "knower", not mere >>knowledge as held in schools of Advaita. The substantive >>consciousness is how the self knows itself [...] >>The attributive consciousness is how the self knows things >>other than itself. [...] >>So van Buitenen's statement is correct. > >But it seems to me that what you just said above contradicts van Buitenen's >statement. You say (like Desika et al.) that there is a substantive >consciousness, different from the attributive consciousness. Surely this >means that the *substance* of the jiva is consciousness? Else what is the >meaning of "substantive"? > >Advaita and visishtadvaita would then disagree only in as much as the latter >accepts a second form of consciousness (the attributive), the possession of >which makes the jiva a knower (jnatr) and not mere knowledge (jnanamatra). >But they would agree on the substance or essence of the jiva being jnana, >whereas van Buitenen in his commentary denies this and seems to say that >Ramanuja accepted *only* dharmabhutajnana. Or am I missing something? > >Best regards, >Martin Gansten From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 14 18:56:09 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 10:56:09 -0800 Subject: Consciousness in visishtadvaita Message-ID: <161227045217.23782.7591164407551980382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten wrote: > Thanks for your reply. However, I wished to know specifically if the two > kinds of knowledge (svarupa- and dharmabhuta-) are mentioned explicitly in > any of Ramanuja's writings. Do you know? I cannot recall offhand, but I am almost positive that Ramanuja makes a difference between the svarUpa-jnAna of a jIva and dharma-bhUta-jnAna. It is fundamental to his philosophical approach. I will check and get back to you. > >In Visishtadvaita, there are two kinds of consciosness, > >attributive and substantive. [...] > >Fundamentally, the individual self is a "knower", not mere > >knowledge as held in schools of Advaita. The substantive > >consciousness is how the self knows itself [...] > >The attributive consciousness is how the self knows things > >other than itself. [...] > >So van Buitenen's statement is correct. > > But it seems to me that what you just said above contradicts van Buitenen's > statement. You say (like Desika et al.) that there is a substantive > consciousness, different from the attributive consciousness. Surely this > means that the *substance* of the jiva is consciousness? Else what is the > meaning of "substantive"? I think your question boils down to what the jIva essentially "is". Is it consciousness or something else? I think we have to look at Ramanuja's approach to the question. According to Ramanuja, everything that is predicated of an object is an attribute of that object. This is because attributes define an object. One of the reasons Ramanuja makes this point is to show the impossibility of any description, Vedic or otherwise, of an Advaitic Brahman, which would consist of pure, undifferentiated consciousness. The very fact that one calls It consciousness imbues it with the attribute of consciousness, according to Ramanuja. I believe Ramanuja is operating under this premise, and that the jIva is best described as a locus of consciousness, action, etc. I surmise then that the svarUpa-bhUta-jnAna is also an attribute; it is is substantive because it reveals the svarUpa of the jIva to itself, nothing more, nothing less. It is also substantive because it is an essential, _immutable_ attribute of the jIva. However, this is not the end-all and be-all of the jIva. The jIva has to know other things as well, and this is where dharma-bhUta-jnAna comes in, as described before. I will have to check with someone more knowledgable and well-read in Sribhashya before I give a more conclusive answer. > Advaita and visishtadvaita would then disagree only in as much as the latter > accepts a second form of consciousness (the attributive), the possession of > which makes the jiva a knower (jnatr) and not mere knowledge (jnanamatra). > But they would agree on the substance or essence of the jiva being jnana, > whereas van Buitenen in his commentary denies this and seems to say that > Ramanuja accepted *only* dharmabhutajnana. Or am I missing something? I don't think van Buitenen says that Ramanuja accepts _only_ dharma-bhUta-jnAna; he was better read than that. van Buitenen, following Ramanuja directly, is emphasizing the point that because the jIva has consciousness as its essential attribute (svarUpa-bhUta-jnAna), it can be described as consciousness itself, as is done sometimes in the Upanishads. However, as stated in the Brahma-Sutras, the jIva is best described as "jnaH", a knower or locus of consciousness. Mani From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Jan 14 19:08:58 1999 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 11:08:58 -0800 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva Message-ID: <161227045216.23782.8805058858215728459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: " > > If yoy would know anything about Chinese texts you would know that the work > called now the Nei Ching is a forgery. Maybe according to the theories of some Western scholars, but this is hardly a universal view. The idea that the Nei Ching was embellished is not based on empirical evidence. We know that the text was mentioned in very early works. The version we have today was compiled in the T'ang Dynasty. But so what. The Rgveda was preserved orally for centuries, before being committed to written form, yet we see that is used by AIT/AIM theories in the most liberal fashion to substantiate their theories. >In the Tao-te Ching it appears that > yin is the preactive fase of cosmic energy and yang the subsequent active > fase. So both are very much comparable with the positive and negative pool > of electricity. The same opinion you'll find in the commentaries of the I> Ching and in neoconfucianism FI Chou Tun-i. > In Taoism and the I-Ching, Yin and Yang are still identified with the creative forces and with the cycles of creation/destruction, life/death associated with the interaction of female and male (or positive and negative) energies. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jan 14 10:29:52 1999 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 11:29:52 +0100 Subject: Consciousness in visishtadvaita In-Reply-To: <14021034303762@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045208.23782.12974877832651159392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin, See Ramanuja's Sribhasya on the Brahmasutras, 1.1.1 wherein he gives a thorough, detailed and explicit description of it. That is perhaps the primary source. Also see Srinivasadasa's Yatindramatadipika, ch 7. If you want a xerox of the relevant part of RB's article, send me your mailing address and I'll send you a copy. John >John, > >Thanks for your input. I think it may prove difficult for me to get hold of >that article from here, but I'll try. In the meantime, would you know if >Prof. Balasubramanian based his critique on any particular passages of >Ramanuja's own writings, where this division of consciousness (into >substantive and attributive) is explicitly stated? > >Best regards, >Martin Gansten From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Jan 14 10:38:37 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 11:38:37 +0100 Subject: Consciousness in visishtadvaita Message-ID: <161227045199.23782.14885896828457992070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mani, Thanks for your reply. However, I wished to know specifically if the two kinds of knowledge (svarupa- and dharmabhuta-) are mentioned explicitly in any of Ramanuja's writings. Do you know? >In Visishtadvaita, there are two kinds of consciosness, >attributive and substantive. [...] >Fundamentally, the individual self is a "knower", not mere >knowledge as held in schools of Advaita. The substantive >consciousness is how the self knows itself [...] >The attributive consciousness is how the self knows things >other than itself. [...] >So van Buitenen's statement is correct. But it seems to me that what you just said above contradicts van Buitenen's statement. You say (like Desika et al.) that there is a substantive consciousness, different from the attributive consciousness. Surely this means that the *substance* of the jiva is consciousness? Else what is the meaning of "substantive"? Advaita and visishtadvaita would then disagree only in as much as the latter accepts a second form of consciousness (the attributive), the possession of which makes the jiva a knower (jnatr) and not mere knowledge (jnanamatra). But they would agree on the substance or essence of the jiva being jnana, whereas van Buitenen in his commentary denies this and seems to say that Ramanuja accepted *only* dharmabhutajnana. Or am I missing something? Best regards, Martin Gansten From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 14 19:52:55 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 11:52:55 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045221.23782.17616810369818461339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > >> Are you implying that this is the origin of the Vaishnava >> doctrine? I find this a highly suspect premise, and I >> urge you to do further research before throwing presumptive >> statements out in a scholarly forum. > > I am not implying this. It is Har Dayal, Bodhisattva doctrine, 1932 [deleted -- further quotes excerpted below] I have read much of the record on this subject, and I have to say that most of the research is highly suspect, because there is absolutely NO concrete evidence that lends credence to the authors' conclusions. They are all mere guesses, usually made without exhaustive knowledge of the source material, without investigating traditional opinions in detail, and furthermore, when reading the traditional opinions, without giving them any credence whatsoever, even when the pandits have read far more than the researchers! I am not saying that all research is suspect, or suffers from these flaws; but I am constantly surprised at how much is simply assumed as fact when all they are are mere guesses. > One author who has worked for decades on MBh. told me: > "For a brief formulation, I would say I agree with those who see > the Gita as in some aspects (and not minor ones) an answer to > Buddhism." Where is the evidence for this? I am willing to accept that Buddhism (and other philosophies of the time) had an influence on the Gita, but declaring the Gita as a "answer" to Buddhism constructed in the mind of an author and then interpolated into the MBh is just a guess, with no evidence whatsoever. > Indira Vishvanathan Peterson, Prof. of Sanskrit writes in > The Norton Anthology, World Masterpieces, p. 958, 1995: > "There is reason to believe [deleted] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > .. The Gita appears to have been [deleted] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I ask for evidence, manuscript or otherwise. I am confident, based on what I have read, that there is not much. [end quotes] > I am confidant of these theories > especially when they are apparently well researched and > therefore highly substantiated. I think you should be a lot more skeptical. There is not even any manuscript evidence that the Gita was interpolated into the Mahabharata, or at what time it was done, if that were the case. I have read scholars and popular exponents (e.g., Huston Smith, whose writing is simply egregious in its assumptions about Indian culture and philosophy) who constantly repeat the same old sentences about the content and philosophy of the Gita when there is simply no solid evidence to back them up. To give you my mindset, so I'll be taken seriuosly: I'm not a Hindutva-vAdi, I hate the VHP/RSS, etc. I'm a secularist. I don't believe that Krishna lived in 4302 B.C. or whatever the Hindutva date is. But I also think that Indologists need to reassess their assumptions before repeating things that simply are based on guesses. > no line in nAlAyira divya prabandham of Alvars > speaks of KRSNArujuna saMvAdam!! The Alvars rarely repeat an entire myth. Their purpose is not to retell stories, but to _use_ ideas from the Puranas to illustrate emotion and aspects of Vishnu. Therefore, their telling of stories will be very piecemeal. However, when Tirumangai Alvar says Krishna stood in front of Partha (Arjuna) and the chariot, and graced him, to what is he referring if not to the Gita? When Tirumalisai Alvar refers to the great words Krishna the king of Dvaraka said long ago, what else is this but the Gita? Recall that these Alvars are contemporaneous or slightly after Sankaracharya, so it's not as if the Gita is an unknown text at this time, based on your own assumptions. At the very least, if you are going to make the highly tenuous assumption that some "anonymous brahmins" interpolated the Gita into the MBh based simply on another scholar's guesswork, you should extrapolate that the Alvars knew the Gita and respected it based on the passages cited above. This is far less of a stretch. Mani From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 14 20:08:34 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 12:08:34 -0800 Subject: Consciousness in visishtadvaita Message-ID: <161227045223.23782.12625339200176984405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten wrote: > if only attributes can be known, the substance > itself would be indefinable Perhaps it is better to say that an object can only be known through its attributes. van Buitenen's statement that Ramanuja really does not mean the svarUpa is based on statements by Ramanuja himself, if not in the Vedarthasangraha, in the Sribhashya. In addition to the mahAsiddhAnta, you should also look at the sUtra (3rd adhyAya, I believe, but I'm not sure) "jno 'to eva", where the jIva is described as "jnaH". Ramanuja definitively writes his opinions on the nature of the jIva here. Mani From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Thu Jan 14 17:44:53 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 12:44:53 -0500 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045188.23782.8070787339012470328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Bijoy Misra wrote: > Dear Mr. Abbas, > I think you have good points. Thanks, Bijoy. > Why can't you say > these without calling names? > It's really painful > to see scholarship being so immodestly conveyed. > Hope consideration. > - BM Apologies for the `name-calling'. I didn't think I was too bad, because I put it in quotes to shorten a longer description. Did not anticipate that the phrase `Dravidianist' I used below would cause such pain. Apologies to N.Ganesan if he felt offended at being called `Dravidianist'. > > `Dravidianist' Ganesan, classical supporter of Aryan Invasions ! Don't mind Narayan S. Raja's joke comparing me to Ayatolla, though. Keep them coming, Narayan! That was a good one : >N.Ganesan duking it out with Samar Abbas! >I love it. :-) :-) > >Sort of like Prabhakaran duking it out >with Ayatollah Khomeini. :-) Samar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 14 21:53:02 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 13:53:02 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045228.23782.5988175338788715038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< The Alvars rarely repeat an entire myth. Their purpose is not to retell stories, but to _use_ ideas from the Puranas to illustrate emotion and aspects of Vishnu. Therefore, their telling of stories will be very piecemeal. However, when Tirumangai Alvar says Krishna stood in front of Partha (Arjuna) and the chariot, and graced him, to what is he referring if not to the Gita? When Tirumalisai Alvar refers to the great words Krishna the king of Dvaraka said long ago, what else is this but the Gita? Recall that these Alvars are contemporaneous or slightly after Sankaracharya, so it's not as if the Gita is an unknown text at this time, based on your own assumptions. >>> Dear Mani, I did not make any assumptions here, just asking questions. I generally agree with you: But for Alvars' or Nayanars' bhakti mass movements, we should not only look in Hindu traditions (both in Sanskrit and Tamil) but also from parallel movements within Buddhism and Jainism. After all, Buddhists and Jains are scolded all the time by Nayanmars and Alvars. So, not only Hindu materials, but their opponents' religions were used also. If you read Naalaayiram, many Rama and Krishna legends are repeated in different places. But Geethai is a very small percentage compared to other legends of Krishna and Rama. That is my surprise. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Jan 14 14:02:10 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 15:02:10 +0100 Subject: Consciousness in visishtadvaita Message-ID: <161227045206.23782.6568309448989874706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John, Thanks for your input. I think it may prove difficult for me to get hold of that article from here, but I'll try. In the meantime, would you know if Prof. Balasubramanian based his critique on any particular passages of Ramanuja's own writings, where this division of consciousness (into substantive and attributive) is explicitly stated? Best regards, Martin Gansten From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 15 01:53:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 17:53:19 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045233.23782.964989290134184728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< There is not even any manuscript evidence that the Gita was interpolated into the Mahabharata, or at what time it was done, if that were the case. >>> The Norton anthology quote given said BG was placed in MBh in 1st century AD. There are NO mss. surviving from that period in India. How can we expect mss. evidence? NG> no line in nAlAyira divya prabandham of Alvars NG> speaks of KRSNArujuna saMvAdam!! <<< The Alvars rarely repeat an entire myth. Their purpose is not to retell stories, but to _use_ ideas from the Puranas to illustrate emotion and aspects of Vishnu. Therefore, their telling of stories will be very piecemeal. >>> Alvars tell, rephrase many myths repeatedly at various places. But nowhere they tell that Krishna told Giitaa or Vaarttai to Arjuna in Naalaayiram. That is significant given the importance of Gita in Sanskrit tradition. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 15 02:03:05 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 18:03:05 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045235.23782.3167366374332187057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mani Varadarajan writes: > > To begin with, Tirumangai Alvar's set of 10 verses on > Parthasarathy svAmi in at the Tiruvallikkeni temple > speak repeatedly of Krishna as the charioteer, and the > meaning of those verses are said to echo the teachings > of the Gita. Let us see how Parthasarathy temple's Alvar poems "speak repeatedly of Krishna as the chaioteer". I do not see what Mani sees! nine out of ten verses deal with 1. killing kamsa, removing ziva's sufferings, standing in the front of arjuna's chariot (pArttan2Ran2 tErmun2 nin2RAn2ait tiruvallikkENik kaN kaNTEn2E), giving up the kingdom (as Rama) 2.being vedas, essence of vedas, fruit eaten by sages, primordial one, ambrosia 3. killing the demoness and becaming mohini 4. holding up the mountain to protect the cowherdss and the herd from rain 5. serving as emissary for pANDvas 6. saving pAncAli, standing in the front of arjuna's chariot (intira ciRuvan2 tEr mun2 nin2RAn2ait tiruvallikkENik kaN kaNTEn2E) 7. killing rAvaNa 8. becoming narasimha 9. saving the elephant The tenth one deals with the benefits of reciting the verses. 6. sa > > But more directly, see Periya Tirumoli 9.9.8, where > Tirumangai Alvar speaks of Krishna's gracious words > to Arjuna in front of the chariot. pArttan2ukkku an2Ru aruLip pAratattu oRu tErmun2 nin2Ru kAttavan2 tan2n2ai viNNOr karu mANikka mAmalaiyai tIrttan2aip pUmpozil cUz tirumAliruJcOlai nin2Ra mUrttiyaik kaitozavum muTiyumkol en2 moykuzaRkE Here again, Krishna as charioteer is all that is implied. > > Tirumalisai Alvar's nAnmukan tiruvantAti (v. 71) refers > to "mAyan ... anRu Otiya vAkku" (the words said by Krishna > then) and this is understood to be a reference to the > Gita as well. cEyan2 aNiyan2 ciRiyan2 mikap periyan2 Ayan2 tuvaraikkOn2Ay nin2Ra mAyan2 an2Ru Otiya vAkkatan2aik kallAr ulakattil EtilaraY meyJJAn2am il This is one place one can assume gIta is implied. All other Krishna/Rama myths abound in Naalaayiram except this one place where Gita is implied. Percentage wise it is a very tiny fraction among all Krishna legends told in Divya Prabandham. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From AppuArchie at AOL.COM Thu Jan 14 23:13:34 1999 From: AppuArchie at AOL.COM (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 18:13:34 -0500 Subject: Classical vs. Modern Message-ID: <161227045231.23782.17594276377716454423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/13/99 8:24:45 EST, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: << Some members make it their mission to sing the glory of one language and one culture (?), i.e. Tamil. The pathetic appeal of one list member to place Tamil on the same footing as the Classical languages-- Sanskrit, Persian and Arabic in India-- sounds ridiculous. >> Thank wonders that I am one of the "Some members" who sing the glory of "one language and one culture(?), i.e. Tamil." I am not in a position to claim or disclaim any unique place for Tamil but I dare anyone to stop me from praising my mother tongue! I do not know Mr. BHK, except through this 'listserv' and his hatred for Tamil. If he is a younger person, he is excused for his misinterpreted youthful zeal If he is an elderly person, one wonders about his motive or claim to be a know all. However, as a student of Tamil, I look up to knowledgable people in Tamil to widen my horizon and I am glad that I am greatly benefited by the Indology group. It is fair game to praise oneself and it is welcome but putting down competition - if it is only competition, as in product sales - then that speaks volume of the capacity of the salesman of the competition to stand up to meet the challenges of the praised product. It reminds me of seats won in national elections with only negative and malicious campaign. I wonder anything can be done about it? Ignoring these venomous attacks encourages more spurting of more venom, I have learnt. Let us learn to "Live and let live with self-pride and tolerance." Ramalingam Shanmugalingam. From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Jan 14 19:40:10 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 20:40:10 +0100 Subject: Consciousness in visishtadvaita Message-ID: <161227045219.23782.18278787861643618444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mani: thanks again. You make several useful points. On John's recommendation, I am also renewing my acquaintance with the Great Siddhanta of the Sribhashya. >I think your question boils down to what the jIva essentially >"is". Is it consciousness or something else? You are right, it does. And perhaps that is an impossible question from Ramanuja's point of view; if only attributes can be known, the substance itself would be indefinable (anirvacaniya?! :-) . >I don't think van Buitenen says that Ramanuja accepts _only_ >dharma-bhUta-jnAna; he was better read than that. van Buitenen, >following Ramanuja directly, Certainly he was very erudite, but in this instance he is not following Ramanuja directly, which was why I took notice in the first place. There are at least two or three instances in the Vedarthasamgraha where Ramanuja explicitly says that the svarupa of the jiva is jnana, but van Buitenen, "more Catholic than the Pope", in each of these cases conscientiously notes that R. does not really mean svarupa, but rather svarupa-nirupana-dharma. That's why I raised the question. Best regards, Martin Gansten From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Thu Jan 14 18:51:28 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 20:51:28 +0200 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: <369CD1C4.252D5E3B@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227045129.23782.7012890063486424036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op woensdag, 13-jan-99 schreef Paul Kekai Manansala: PKM> I totally disagree with your views on Tantrism in China. The whole body PKM> of Japanese tantrism came first from China. Also, Taoist ideas about PKM> sex may be different in some ways from those of Tantrism, but there are PKM> also many similarities that can hardly be found anywhere else. Wrong again, there've been quite a few orgiastic groups among the gnostics in Egypt (a certain Basilides was famous) and in the European middle ages, you can also find similarites in the lives of Greek Stoics. PKM> There is no need to refer me to "Tibetologists" or "Sinologists" if you PKM> by that you mean the standard Western views. These are and have long PKM> been controlled by strong bias that do not allow openly for ideas that PKM> contradict their world view. The latter tends to have a monodirectional PKM> and racial view of the flow of culture. That seems a strong bias to me, the more considering the fact that there are quite a few Japanese and Chinese sinologists and Tibetologists (even an occasional Tibetan has escaped the claws of the church and made a carreer in science). And you seem to forget that texts seldomly lie. If you read Chinese and Tibetan texts there's little room for bias left. How open are you for ideas that contradict you're worldview? Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Thu Jan 14 19:31:36 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 21:31:36 +0200 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045126.23782.11394832085600636457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op donderdag, 14-jan-99 schreef Samar Abbas: SA> On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: SA>> It's a very peculiar point of view, taken into account the fact that the SA>> Chinese never accepted the typical tantric rites, because they were SA>> shocked by it. SA> That goes for Confucianism. We are talking about mainly Tibet and perhpas SA> Taoism. Taoism does not display the attitudes you mention. Taoism is about making an immortal body not about getting liberated from samsara. SA>> It would also appear very strange that SA>> quite a few Tibetans took many pains and gave lots of money to Indian SA>> tantric adepts in order to be initiated in the secrets of tantra. SA> But the first Indian Tantric, Vasistha, learned Tantra in Tibet (cf. the SA> first post in this thread). Moreover, Japanese scholars go to the USA to SA> study Christianity. That does not imply that the USA is the home of SA> Christianity. It is possible that East Indics further developed Tantrism, SA> and were hence in great demand in Tibet. They were not in such great SA> demand in India, from the exodus to Tibet, and otherwise they would not SA> have gone. In the USA you can study christan sects, not christianity, you need to go to Rome, Paris or Istanbul for that. So the reasoning by analogy is false. It's not even an recognisez pramaa.na on ths list for that matter. You don't see the point, do you. In all the biographies of Tibetan yogi's wich have been kept in the Tibetan monastries there's allways question of the unavailability of teachings and teachers in Tibet. SA>> Tantra was SA>> unknown in Tibet before the middle of hte 8th century, still the SA>> Guhyasamaaja tantra has been dated before the sixth century. SA> Again, this is based on dating etc. and is subject to revision. Many of SA> the Tantras survive only in Tibetan and in no other language. Anyhting is subject to revision, what kind of an argument is this? SA>> What the old SA>> Bonreligion was about is still open for speculation, because we no SA>> documents from the kingdom of Zangzung have been found. SA> As per legend, the ancient Bon dieties were subjugated into the Buddhist SA> pantheon. It is only natural to assume that the rites with which they wer SA> worshipped also entered Tibetan Buddhism in this way. Budhism in Tibet SA> did not eradicate the pre-Buddhist deities, it subsumed them, and in turn SA> got modified. Thus, one still can reconstruct the Bon religion. You never saw a Bontexts, did you. If so you would know that the Tibetan gods were all local nature spirits SA>> The new Bon was SA>> nothing but a reversed copy of the existing buddhist practices in Tibet. SA> Bon pre-dated Buddhism. It experienced late revivals after Buddhism came. And this Old Bon was probably nothing more then a variant of central Asiatci sjamanism. The so called founder of Bon came from Tajikistan SA>> The older tantras say nothing about mahacina. SA> That depends on the dating of the Tantras, and the survivability. I can SA> always say that the older ones are lost, and we will reach a stalemate in SA> this. Those that survive mention Tibet as the source. you can write what you want, but if yoy really want others to take you seriously, you shouldn't start with 'I can always say' SA>> The passages you SA>> refer to are not convincing since they are the only ones among a vast SA>> body of tantric litterature. SA> Would like to see some quotes stating that the 5th Veda fell somewhere SA> outside Tibet, and that Vasishta travelled to somewhere other than Tibet SA> to learn Tantra. The vast body of literature has so far not furnished us SA> with any other sources. SA>> I suggest you ask tibetologists and sinologists for established facts SA>> before you make all too bold statements. SA> Any Tibetologists are welcome to contribute their learned opinions. SA>> And last but SA>> not least: the taoist ideas about sex are very different from those I SA>> read in the tantras. SA>> I've never read in tantras that you have to copulate with SA>> as much people of the other sex in order to strengthen you lifeforce. SA> There are several similarities, the technique of retention, for instance. There's quite a difference in the theories about retention actually. Even the tantra's have different opinions about it. BTW, you speak of tantra's as scientific works, but the oldest are really nothing more then a yogi's travelling notebook, with dialogues, recipees, rituals and what else he didn't want to forget. SA> The postures prescribed are also very similar. Well this can be caused by the limitations of the human body. SA> Then Shiva-Shakti is the same as Yin-Yang. This is pure nonsens yin and yang are not antropological concepts, but more like the gu.na's in saamkhya. Originally they were the shady and the sunny side of a mountain. SA> This is based not just on a similarity of Sivas. There is anthropological SA> and genetic proof of the unity of Dravidian and African peoples. I simply don't believe that, since the languages are not related Austronesians are not Africans If the SA> Dravidians came from Africa, then they may have brought their religion SA> along as well. I studied some African religion in my time, but it's very different from other religions, certainly from hinduism and it certainly is not a unity. Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Jan 14 17:34:53 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 22:34:53 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990113112219.0084ada0@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045212.23782.17132909037467120369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> TRIKUTA In the commentry of bElArAja on vAkyapadIya 2.486 we have "paravatAt trikUTaikadEzavat(varti?) trilinga dEzAditi" The fact that there is a place by the name trikUTa in the Guntur District of Andhra Pradesh, the area in which dhAnyakaTaka and zriparvata are located, can be seen from the inscriptions of kings of AnandagOtra and the viSNukuNDinas who ruled this area. These people who ruled from 300 A.D.- 400 A.D. had their kingdom confined to Guntur, Krishna and Godavari Districts of Andhra Pradesh and could not have been kings of any other trikUTa except that which lies in their realms. One of the inscriptions of the viSNukuNDina kings says, "zrI dEvavarmNaH priyaputras trikUTamalayAdhipatir nayasattvasaMpannO ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ bhagavac crIparvatasvAmipAdAnudhyAtO...." Epigraphia Indica, vol 18, page 338. AnandagOtra kings also said they were trikUTAdhipatis. Malaya mandala is identified as Kovvur and Nidudavole taluks of West Godavari District of Andhra Pradesh. trikUTa is provisionally identified with the well known saiva kshetra kOTappa konDa in Guntur District. regards, sarma. From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Jan 14 22:20:51 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 23:20:51 +0100 Subject: Consciousness in visishtadvaita Message-ID: <161227045229.23782.13668257190221118324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the reference. The sutra in question (jno'ta eva) is 2.3.19 in my edition. Judging by a quick glance, however, R. doesn't develop the theme of dual consciousness here, but is content to refute the ideas of the self being 'mere consciousness' (as in Advaita) or inert (as in Vaiseshika). >van Buitenen's statement that Ramanuja really does not >mean the svarUpa is based on statements by Ramanuja himself, >if not in the Vedarthasangraha, in the Sribhashya. With respect, this still looks to me like forcing the author's hand. We know Ramanuja says that consciousness is a defining attribute of the self; but can we be sure that that is *all* he wanted to say -- so sure that we add explanatory footnotes to those remarks which seem to say something else, lest the reader be tempted to take the author literally? I have just reached the paragraph in the Sribhashya (1.1.1) which begins 'caitanyasvabhAvatA hi svayaMprakAzatA'. Ramanuja here makes the exact point I was looking for (so thanks again to John for pointing the way), using the simile of the flame and its lustre to illustrate the self and its consciousness: "Like a single *substance* (dravya) of light exists as lustre and as possessing lustre" (yathaikam eva tejodravyaM prabhA-prabhAvad-rUpeNAvatiSThate). It certainly looks to me as though Ramanuja is saying more than van Buitenen gives him credit for (in this particular instance). Best regards, Martin Gansten From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 15 12:11:27 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 04:11:27 -0800 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti/Bhogi/Lohri Message-ID: <161227045245.23782.1802213223940742697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mani Varadarajan wrote: >My surmise is that the Tamil culture > provided a fertile ground for the simultaneous growth > of Jain, Buddhist, and Vaishnava bhakti, followed > shortly thereafter by Saiva bhakti. Let us look at a day earlier. Bhogi is celebrated in Tamilnadu, Bhogi man.t.alu in Telugu desam, Lohr.i_ or lohi_ in Punjab, Bhogali bihu in Assam... There is a Punjabi proverb: je min.h na pawe lohr.i_ har.i howegi thor.i_ = if it does not rain at Lohr.i_, the spring harvest will be poor. In the Marathi lexicon (Olesworth and Candy), bhogi_ is used for the day before both the summer and winter solstices; also applied to the day before naraka caturdas'i_; bhogavid.a_ = a role of betel-leaf with light articles of spicery enclosed in it, presented by a female on the day of the winter solstice to a bra_hman or to an unwidowed woman. Winter solstice is also the day of the maha_vrata in Aitareya A_ran.yaka and perhaps, also the precursor of the celebration of Christmas... Tamil lexicon explains po_ki as S'iva or Indra and hence po_ki-pan.t.ikai... Is it not possible that the harvest festival coinciding with the apparent shift of the sun's course was practised as a vrata and preceded the bhakti movements of the historical periods? Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 15 12:45:01 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 04:45:01 -0800 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti/Bhogi/Lohri Message-ID: <161227045247.23782.7756837921904443860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some lexemes relatable to Punjabi lohr.i_ (winter solstice) may be of interest, denoting two semantic streams: stirring up mud (say, harvesting)and movement (say, uttara_yan.am): Pali: lol.i_, a_lol.i_ = that which is stirred up, mud, in cpd. si_ta_lol.i_ mud or loam from the furrow adhering to the plough (Vin. I, 206); Sanskrit:lolati = to move; lot.anam = rolling, wallowing; ullola = violently moving; Slavonic ljuljati = to rock; Kannad.a: lo_la = moving hither and thither. > Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 15 14:04:44 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 06:04:44 -0800 Subject: Bhagavadgita and Mahabharata (was: SV: creation of human kind) Message-ID: <161227045248.23782.14254454437661806655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apreciate references on the relations between Gita and Buddhism. Many thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 15 14:09:14 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 06:09:14 -0800 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti/Bhogi/Lohri Message-ID: <161227045250.23782.15944809605103411499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hope Dr. Jean-Luc Chevillard who knows Tamil well, will forgive me for quoting a 5th century and 8th century poem on Pongal. Longing for the day when he or Thomas Lehmann or Ulrike Niklas will write a book on Tamil poetics, ie., a study and translation of TolkAppiyam, PoruL atikAram. In English preferably. I will abide by his advice to restrict less than mA: The problem is remembering Tamil parallels from pre-10th century literature and feeling that that is relevant to a particular discussion. I agree: avoid political flames even after seeing cornered with wrong/insufficient info. Have not told anybody to join Indology realizing it may not be good, imagine the day when all Indians have access to web :-) Back to Pongal: **************** The Bhogi festival is Indra festival in CilappatikAram (conservatively 5th century AD) tEvar kOmAn2 Evalin2 pOnta kAval pUtattuk kaTai kezu pITikai puzukkal um nOlai um vizukku uTai maTai um pU um pukai um pogkal um corintu tuNagkaiyar kuravaiyar aNagku ezuntu ATi From Ciivaka CintAmaNi of Tiruttakka TEvar (8th century): matuk kulAm alagkal mAlai magkaiyar vaLartta cem tIp putuk kalattu ezunta tIm pAl pogkalin2 nuraiyil pogkik katirttu veN mATam tOn2Rum cevvaiyil kAtam nAn2kin2 natikkarai vantu viTTAr naccu eyiRRu aravOTu oppAr Happy Pongal, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 15 14:54:44 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 06:54:44 -0800 Subject: Classical vs. Modern Message-ID: <161227045252.23782.18343344499830887495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/13/99 12:29:12 PM Central Standard Time, I wrote: > In a message dated 1/13/99 7:24:45 AM Central Standard Time, > bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: > > > The pathetic appeal of one list member to place > > Tamil on the same footing as the Classical languages > >-- Sanskrit, Persian and Arabic in India-- sounds ridiculous. > >Tamil is a modern language and not a > > classical language. Classical lgs are not the mother tongues > > of any segment of natives in India. In the western world, > > only Latin and Greek qualify as classical languages. > >Can Bh. Krishnamurti explain or define what a Classical language is? >Thanks. I am still waiting for Bh. Krishnamurti to explain or define what a Classical language is. Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From paul_pearsons at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 15 15:29:01 1999 From: paul_pearsons at YAHOO.COM (Paul Pearsons) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 07:29:01 -0800 Subject: Figures and quotas Message-ID: <161227045256.23782.10315835331018534428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jean-Luc, I believe humble pleas and references to the netiquette are generally in vain, although they might provide a shortterm relief. In my (humble :-) opinion, the only solution is to moderate the list. Those who are interested in good results of moderation can compare the INDOLOGY to the LINGUIST (http://linguistlist.org/). Those who are interested in quarrels and quibbles will definitely oppose any moderation... Best wishes, --Paul. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Fri Jan 15 02:48:38 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 07:48:38 +0500 Subject: Classical vs. Modern In-Reply-To: <3c4d819e.369e7a1e@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227045237.23782.5478332192066479198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:13 PM 1/14/99 EST, you wrote: >It is fair game to praise oneself >and it is welcome but putting down competition - if it is only competition, >as in product sales - then that speaks volume of the capacity of the salesman >of the competition to stand up to meet the challenges of the praised product. >It reminds me of seats won in national elections with only negative and >malicious campaign. I wonder anything can be done about it? Ignoring these >venomous attacks encourages more spurting of more venom, I have learnt. Let us >learn to "Live and let live with self-pride and tolerance." Ramalingam >Shanmugalingam. > > Thanks for stating so clearly and candidly your understanding of the nature of the Indology list ..... a language market. As far as I know there is no competition for the sale of tamil. Nobody else is trying to sell his language on this list. The field has been free for you and I think will continue to be so. I do not think that Bh.Krishnamurti has ever sent any letters praising telugu. regards, sarma. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 15 19:12:07 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 11:12:07 -0800 Subject: Figures and quotas Message-ID: <161227045264.23782.13329638081662277300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --Paul Pearsons wrote: > > Dear Jean-Luc, > > I believe humble pleas and references to the netiquette are generally > in vain, although they might provide a shortterm relief. > > In my (humble :-) opinion, the only solution is to moderate the list. > Those who are interested in good results of moderation can compare the > INDOLOGY to the LINGUIST (http://linguistlist.org/). Those who are > interested in quarrels and quibbles will definitely oppose any > moderation... > > Best wishes, > --Paul. > Does any Indology member knowing one or more of the two Classical Indian languages quite well mind moderation? Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 15 19:20:02 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 11:20:02 -0800 Subject: Kumarila Bhatta's criticism of false etymologies Message-ID: <161227045266.23782.12065841717871550631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > I remember reading in "A history of grammatical theories in Malayalam" by K. > N. Ezhuthachan that Kumarila Bhatta discusses false Sanskrit >etymologies given > by others for clearly non-Sanskrit words. I think they might be from > Tantravarttika. Since I do not have access to that book, can somebody >provide > the list of words he discusses? The words you're looking for might be "cor" (rice), "atar" (road),"pAp" (snake), "mAl" (woman) and "vair" (stomach). This is quoted by KV Zvelebil in his 'Dravidian Linguistics' (p. xxii fn) with the notes that cor is DEDR 2897, atar is DEDR 3170. "PAp obviously represents DEDR 4085 pAmpu (which according to Burnell, South Indian Palaeography, p. 126) is given in some of the best manuscripts of T. as pAmb. KumArila's mAl is to be connected either with DEDR 183 (Tamil ammAL) or DEDR 3616 (MalayALam mOL)." I believe the relevant passage from TantravArttika is: "As for example, in the Dravida language, though all words are used as ending in the consonant, yet the Aryas are found to assume in them the affixes, &c., that can be appended only to words ending in vowels, and thence make the words give a sense, in accordance with their own (samskrta), language. For instance, when the Dravidas call 'rice', "'cor,'the Arya reads in it his own word 'cora' (thief), and comprehends the meaning accordingly. And when the Dravidas call the road 'atar', he reads it as 'atarah', and declares that as the road is difficult to cross, it is really 'atara' (uncrossable). Similaly they call the snake 'pAp,' and he takes it as 'pApa' (evil), and argues that the snake is really an evil animal. So, too, in the case of the word 'mAl' which they use in the sense of the woman, the word is taken as 'mAlA'. The word 'vair', used by them in the sense of the stomach, is taken as 'vaira' (enemy); and the use is justified on the ground of the hungry man being capable of doing many sinful deeds, which proves that the stomach is an enemy of the man." >?From KumArila bhaTTa's TantravArttika (Vol. I, p 219), transl by Mm Ganganatha Jha, Sri Satguru Publications, Delhi, 1983. ] Hope this helps, Warm Regards. == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 15 20:02:06 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 12:02:06 -0800 Subject: A plea to Cambridge univ. press Message-ID: <161227045269.23782.8310669369776690435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I guess all Prof. N. Ganesan is asking is for an inexpensive edition of A. Parpola, Deciphering the Indus script, 1994. It does not matter if it is from Princeton or Harvard or UC, Berkeley or Columbia or SUNY or Oxford or Cambridge. One of these people or an Indian publisher can contact him. I think his e-mail is asko.parpola at helsinki.fi If an Indian publisher does printing, he will make lots of money. People tired of Frawley & co., will buy this book. For sure, I will order 50 copies. Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From pventhb at XS4ALL.NL Fri Jan 15 11:03:28 1999 From: pventhb at XS4ALL.NL (Th. de Bruijn) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 12:03:28 +0100 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic Message-ID: <161227045239.23782.17351088065319393024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > A thorough knowledge of Arabic and Persian eases understanding of their > derivative, Hindustani, which is the third most widely used language in > the world, is the de facto lingua franca and effective national language > of India and understood by more than half of all Indians. Hence their > status as classical languages: like classical Latin giving birth to the > modern Romance languages, Classical Arabic and Persian gave birth to Urdu > and its derivative Hindustani. Hence their status as Classical Languages > par excellence of the bulk of the Indian population. > > Moreover, a person speaking Hindustani can easily understand and write > Arabic and or Persian with very little effort, while learning other > classical languages is more difficult, but may be suitable for minorities. > You're right, but I would agree with Ganesan that Tamil deserves classification as a classical language. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala Dear Indology-readers, Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani is a complex Modern Indo-Aryan language and deserves to be treated as such by Indological scholars. On the topic which started off this thread: Nehru was very fond of Persian poetry, which he probably knew better than his English or Hindi. Could that have been of any influence, apart from the fact that a substantial portion of the literature that was made in India (is that the same as Indian literature?) is written in Persian? The essence of the quote (see above) alludes me and seems to take up more bandwidth than its relevance would justify. It's no use going over debates again and again, but, just for the record, the statement that Urdu or Hindustani is derived from Persian or Arabic does not make any sense linguistically. Statements like that are part of the discourse of linguistic politics and not of that of Indology. For students of Hindi and Urdu it proves just as big a pain to learn Arabic as for any other, I can tell from experience. Persian is another matter, but my background in Sanskrit helped me more with that than my Hindi. Vocabulary, and that is what Ar. Pe. and Hi/Ur/Hindustani have in common, is only part of language and even in that there are a lot of "Falsche Freunde" as the Germans say: similar words in different languages that do not have similar meanings. Here old de Saussure and his "langue" and "parole" also kick in. One has to learn to use the vocabulary in its syntactic and linguistic context. This makes that it is not easier for anyone who knows Hindi/Urdu to learn Arabic if only at a very basic level, let alone read poetry or any other sophisticated and highly contextualized forms of speech. A good example is the famous Persian dictionary by Steingass. It is a preferred tool for students of Arabic as it is not based on the roots of verbs, like the Arabic dictionaries, but gives all the inflected participles and mazdars separately. The trap lies in choosing the right meaning from the many alternatives. The specific context of the Persian language is the clue to what its compiler meant, making the dictionary very impracticle for reading modern Urdu. After a while the systematic nature of the Arabic dictionary, once mastered, is a much better tool for learning Arabic (and an Urdu dictionary is better for Urdu). A similar case would be the use of Monier Williams for looking up tatsamas in Hindi. Exceptions may be strictly technical vocabularies such as that of Koranic Arabic. But even there: Abu'l Kalam Azad made a translations into Urdu of the Koran, not because it could be read easily by all Urdu speakers. Greetings, Thomas de Bruijn IIAS\Leiden University The Netherlands From fademm at CASTLE.BEAVER.EDU Fri Jan 15 17:14:04 1999 From: fademm at CASTLE.BEAVER.EDU (Maureen Fadem) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 12:14:04 -0500 Subject: Classical vs. Modern, Tamil In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990115213106.37efad66@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045262.23782.14400935875840397629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> i was surprised too, to be reading postings on this list which insist that tamil is not a classical language. please, i do not say this as a scholar, i am only a graduate student in english lit and i am focusing my studies on indian-english-medium fiction; but just to offer another perspective, please refer to A.K.Ramanujan's tamil translations, _The Interior Landscape_, this is from oxford india paperbacks, 1967; isbn: 0-19-563501-9. while i am aware that much has gone on in the world of indological studies since the publication date of this book, still, it is clear that at least ramanujan regarded Tamil to be a classical language himself. a wonderful book, in the afterword, he comments: "Tamil is one of the two classical languages of India, is the only language of contemporary India which is recognizably continuous with a classical past." (97) [i am assuming the other to be sanskrit] "Early classical Tamil is not intelligible to a modern Tamillian without special study." (98) selections therein are from 'Kuruntokai,' one of the eight anthologies of classical Tamil ascribed to the first three centuries CE. (11) ramanujan provides there translator's notes, translations, a somewhat indepth afterword, very informative, and indices of poets, speakers and first lines. this is a poetic tradition that until chancing upon this book, i had no familiarity with whatsoever. since then, i have seen that *finding* tamil translations is a challenging task indeed. an aside... [for those interested in tamil literature in general, there is also, _The Oxford Anthology of Modern Indian Poetry_, edited by ramanujan and Vinay Dharwadker, with several translations by both of them. there are approximately ten tamil translations included, most of which were translated by ramanujan himself [of special note, see _Wind, 9_ by Subramania Bharati, (page 113, a gem! :-) and Atmanam's _Next Page_ (pg. 127); additionally, there are numerous other selections from the dravidian family of languages. oxford india paperbacks, 1994, isbn: 0-19-563917-0. one of the things that most appeals to me about the book is that ramanujan and dharwadker seemed to be giving space and voice to the poetry of almost all of the 18 recognized languages, in fact 14 of them, altho ramanujan does admit in the introduction that 'those we know well' received more space than the others; understandable since they are the primary translators.] best, maureen fadem. "You know as much English as I do. Please look up a dictionary. Why are French, Spanish, Italian not called Classsical languges? But Latin is. Classical Greek and Modern Greek are different languages. Only the Classical Greek is a Classical language, just like Classical Arabic. Such distinction is not maintenable in the case of Tamil. For all written and formal spoken purposes (for modern communication and in media) it is the literary Tamil that is used because of diglossia. Arabic also has diglossia but when we refer to Arabic in the Indian context, we mean only the Classical Arabic." ************************* Maureen Ellen Fadem fademm at castle.beaver.edu From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Jan 15 11:18:00 1999 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 12:18:00 +0100 Subject: Bhagavadgita and Mahabharata (was: SV: creation of human kind) In-Reply-To: <199901141952.LAA02061@shasta.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: <161227045241.23782.41797089676902887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mani Varadarajan wrote (I quote only one passage of his answer to N. Ganesan): >I think you should be a lot more skeptical. >There is not even any manuscript evidence that the Gita was >interpolated into the Mahabharata ... There is indeed manuscript evidence for the interpolation of the Gita in the Mahabharata: Immediately *after* the Bhagavadgita, the narrator continues in 6.42.2 (Poona edition): bhrAtRbhiH sahito rAjan putro duryodhanas tava | bhISmaM pramukhataH kRtvA prayayau saha senayA || Instead of the first line, several northern manuscripts (B, Da, Dn, D4,5,8) read: bhrAtus tad vacanaM zrutvA putro DuHzAsanas tava ("When Duhsasana had heard these words of his brother") and this can only refer to a passage several chapters *before* the Bhagavadgita, i.e. Duryodhana's admonition to Duhsasana 6.16.11-20 to protect Bhisma. That the verses belong together in this way is confirmed by a parallel in 6.95.4-23 which ends with precisely the same lines: bhrAtus tad vacanaM zrutvA putro DuHzAsanas tava | bhISmaM pramukhataH kRtvA prayayau saha senayA || So - though all the mansucripts used by the Poona edition contain the Gita - the variae lectiones leave little doubt that there once existed manuscripts which did not include the Bhagavadgita and the chapters preceding it. I have presented these facts in detail in my article (in German) in Indo-Iranian Journal 11 (1969), p. 159-174. Angelika Malinar in her recent (and otherwise highly recommendable) book (in German) on the Bhagavadgita ("rAjavidyA: Das koenigliche Wissen um Herrschaft und Verzicht. Studien zur BhagavadgItA", Wiesbaden 1996, = PurANa Research Publications, Tuebingen, Vol. 5) has tried to refute my arguments, without convincing me, because she does not take the manuscriptual evidence seriously. I agree with her, though, that the Gita probably has been devised for the Mahabharata and not as an independent text. Regards, Georg v. Simson From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Fri Jan 15 11:41:48 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 12:41:48 +0100 Subject: Figures and quotas Message-ID: <161227045243.23782.3764727238859510055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, this is a remark based on figures and a (humble :-) plea to those concerned I used to recommend the INDOLOGY discussion group to my french colleagues (I even wrote a small note to that effect in the BULLETIN D'ETUDES INDIENNES in 1992, NO. 10). But over the years, I have found it more and more difficult to give that advice and even decided for myself that it would be less time-consuming to use the option: SET INDOLOGY NOMAIL (technically this message has to be sent to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK) Whenever I feel like having a look at INDOLOGY I just check, for instance: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A1=ind9901&L=indology&O=D&H=0&D=1&T=1 (this is for january 99 ....) Among the several possible reasons for this change of opinion, I wish to mention only one: it is not good for a group to have people use MORE THAN THEIR SHARE of "free speech": for instance, there are 641 messages in the december archives, but 148 among these come from one single person. And the trend seems to be the same in january (77 on a total of 359 at the time of writing). This is not a comment on the content (some messages can be quite interesting), but rather a remark having to do with netiquette ... I do not know what the ideal proportion is. May be 1/20th (tamil mA) is a reasonable fraction: **self-restraint should forbid anyone to send more than one message out of 20.** May-be a kANi (tamil word for 1/80th) is even better. :-) Any suggestions? Best wishes to all -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD From george9252 at MSN.COM Fri Jan 15 20:32:04 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 15:32:04 -0500 Subject: List Down? Message-ID: <161227045273.23782.7604738640608918806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is the list down? I have received no messages for two or three days (which is very unusual). Dr. George Cronk From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Jan 15 21:14:22 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 16:14:22 -0500 Subject: references to tuLu language in ancient Tamil text Message-ID: <161227045279.23782.11228504198200756552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/15/99 2:10:57 PM Central Standard Time, Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM writes: > Are there any other references to Tulu in early > > tamil literature. There is indeed a reference to tuLu nATu in Classical Tamil literature. meymmali perum pUN cemmal kOcar kommaiyam pacuGkAyk kuTumi viLainta pAkal Arkaip paRaikkaN pIli tOkaik kAvin2 tuLunATTu an2n2a (akanAn2URu 15.2-5) Translation: Like the tulu country with groves which belong to the kOcar who hold truth as their ornaments, and where peacocks, that have plumage with patterns like the eyes of the drums, eat the fruits of balsam-pear (momordica charantia) ripening at the tip.... Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Jan 15 21:21:57 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 16:21:57 -0500 Subject: Kumarila Bhatta's criticism of false etymologies Message-ID: <161227045282.23782.8976079922932135218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/15/99 1:19:13 PM Central Standard Time, lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM writes: > "As for example, in the Dravida language, though all words are used as > ending in the consonant, yet the Aryas are found to assume in them the > affixes, &c., that can be appended only to words ending in vowels, and > thence make the words give a sense, in accordance with their own > (samskrta), language. For instance, when the Dravidas call 'rice', > "'cor,'the Arya reads in it his own word 'cora' (thief), and > comprehends the meaning accordingly. And when the Dravidas call the > road 'atar', he reads it as 'atarah', and declares that as the road is > difficult to cross, it is really 'atara' (uncrossable). Similaly they > call the snake 'pAp,' and he takes it as 'pApa' (evil), and argues > that the snake is really an evil animal. So, too, in the case of the > word 'mAl' which they use in the sense of the woman, the word is > taken as 'mAlA'. The word 'vair', used by them in the sense of the > stomach, is taken as 'vaira' (enemy); and the use is justified on the > ground of the hungry man being capable of doing many sinful deeds, > which proves that the stomach is an enemy of the man." > > From KumArila bhaTTa's TantravArttika (Vol. I, p 219), transl by Mm > Ganganatha Jha, Sri Satguru Publications, Delhi, 1983. ] > Thanks a lot. Any specifics on his KB's date and place? Regards S. Palaniappan From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 16 01:39:10 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 17:39:10 -0800 Subject: Classical vs. Modern Message-ID: <161227045289.23782.8666388482693951156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/15/99 10:29:24 AM Central Standard Time, bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: > You know as much English as I do. Please look up a dictionary. > Why are French, Spanish, Italian not called Classsical languges? > But Latin is. Classical Greek and Modern Greek are different > languages. Only the Classical Greek is a Classical language, > just like Classical Arabic. Such distinction is not maintenable > in the case of Tamil. For all written and formal spoken purposes > (for modern communication and in media) it is the > literary Tamil that is used because of diglossia. Arabic also > has diglossia but when we refer to Arabic in the Indian context, > we mean only the Classical Arabic. Thanks very much for Bh. Krishnamurti's recommendation to look up a dictionary. I wanted a definition from Bh. Krishnamurti because I hoped he might have some rational explanation as to why he does not want to recognize Classical Tamil. It is obvious he does not have one. Let me quote excerpts from Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus of ARTFL Project: Webster Dictionary, 1913. Classic (Page: 261) Clas"sic, n. 1. A work of acknowledged excellence and authrity, or its author; -- originally used of Greek and Latin works or authors, but now applied to authors and works of a like character in any language. Classic, Classical (Page: 261) Clas"sic (?), Clas"sic*al (?), a. [L. classicus relating to the classes of the Roman people, and especially to the frist class; hence, of the first rank, superior, from classis class: cf. F. classique. See Class, n.] 1. Of or relating to the first class or rank, especially in literature or art. 2. Of or pertaining to the ancient Greeks and Romans, esp. to Greek or Roman authors of the highest rank, or of the period when their best literature was produced; of or pertaining to places inhabited by the ancient Greeks and Romans, or rendered famous by their deeds. 3. Conforming to the best authority in literature and art; chaste; pure; refined; as, a classical style. Obviously, by these definitions, one should recognize Classical Tamil. Maureen Fadem mentioned A. K. Ramanujan. In his book "Poems of Love and War", Columbia University Press, 1985, AKR explains why Classical Tamil is indeed classical. He says in the Translator's Note, "In this book, Poems of Love and War, I attempt translations of old Tamil poems selected from anthologies compiled about two millennia ago. Today we have access to over two thousand of these poems composed by nearly 500 poets. These poems are "classical," i.e., early, ancient; they are also "classics," i.e., works that have stood the test of time, the founding works of a whole tradition. Not to know them is not to know a unique and major poetic achievement of Indian civilization." Having seen the postings by Bh. Krishnamurti, I feel that he will immediately point to AKR's Tamil heritage and say that his judgement is, therefore, biased. It should be noted that AKR was also equally at home in Kannada and had translated Kannada poetry too. (He was the recipient of the prestigious MacArthur Award.) In any case, let me quote Siegfried Lienhard, author of "A History of Classical Poetry: Sanskrit-Pali-Prakrit" in the series "A History of Indian Literature" edited by Jan Gonda, one of the foremost Sanskrit scholars. Discussing the common elements between Classical Tamil poetry and Indo-Aryan poetry, Lienhard notes in p. 73, "The correspondences are often so clear that one cannot reject entirely the possibility of Dravidian influence on early Prakrit and Sanskrit short poems. On the other hand it seems improbable that muktaka poetry can have influenced classical Tamil lyrical poems as caGkam poetry is not only older than the earliest preserved muktaka stanzas; it had also risen to far greater heights." So certainly, one does not need Bh. Krishnamurti's recommendation for recognition of Tamil as a classical language on par with Arabic and Greek. Reputed scholars have done that already. Whatever be the positive and negative aspects of N. Ganesan's postings, they have certainly done some good in this case. They have serendipitously helped to expose the virulent anti-Tamil feelings of Bh. Krishnamurti. Under BhK's veneer of objective academic scholarship lurks a classic embodiment of prejudice and hatred. Interestingly, on another thread, there was a recent discussion of the works of Nazis and their sympathizers, and how to evaluate their contributions. Based on all these, hereafter, I shall give due consideration to BhK's anti-Tamil bias before I accept his linguistic findings involving Tamil. If BhK cannot tolerate the concept of Tamil as a classical language in the same way he is willing to accept Arabic and Greek, then he is on the wrong list. All he has to do is look at the Scope of Indology at the Indology list web site. He will find the sentence,"Indologists typically have a formal training in classical Tamil, Sanskrit, Prakrit, Persian, or other languages that bear on the history of Indian culture." Thus the list officially recognizes classical Tamil. If BhK does not like this, he can always pick up his marbles and go elsewhere. But, it is pathetic to appeal to listen to his views based on his old age. Age is irrelevant in intellectual discussions. If age were to be a criterion, one should pay more respect to a piece of rock. However, one should note that its age may be two billion years, but it does not have any knowledge or wisdom. Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Fri Jan 15 16:00:55 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 18:00:55 +0200 Subject: FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: <369D3D83.4D3AB0C6@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227045210.23782.8985284058548060954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op donderdag, 14-jan-99 schreef Paul Kekai Manansala: PKM> How open are> you for ideas that contradict you're worldview? PKM>> PKM> Probably more open than you. I don't have as much invested in centuries PKM> of racial science. We've come to a point were discussion has become useless. Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Fri Jan 15 16:11:50 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 18:11:50 +0200 Subject: Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva In-Reply-To: <369D469F.57B60385@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227045214.23782.7690103058857047752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op donderdag, 14-jan-99 schreef Paul Kekai Manansala: PKM> Who said anything about samsara? The alchemy of Taoism has much in PKM> common with that of Tantrism including the centrality of the PKM> interaction of opposites. I mkae a difference between tantra and rasayana, about the latter I've no knowledge about the first, but I'm sure that the mainstream of tantra is meant as the way to moksha. PKM>>> Then Shiva-Shakti is the same as Yin-Yang. PKM>> This is pure nonsens yin and yang are not antropological concepts, but PKM>> more PKM>> like the gu.na's in saamkhya. Originally they were the shady and the PKM>> sunny PKM>> side of a mountain. PKM> This is erroneous. Yin and yang have stood for opposites from some of PKM> the earliest literature to include male and female, receptive and PKM> creative. Yin and Yang are the original creative forces from which PKM> the entire universe evolved according to the Nei Ching (Manual PKM> of the Yellow Emperor). A quote from Veith's translation: PKM> "The principle of Yin and Yang is the basis of the entire universe. It PKM> is the principle of creation. It brings about the transformation to PKM> parenthood; it is the root and source of life and death..." If yoy would know anything about Chinese texts you would know that the work called now the Nei Ching is a forgery. In the Tao-te Ching it appears that yin is the preactive fase of cosmic energy and yang the subsequent active fase. So both are very much comparable with the positive and negative pool of electricity. The same opinion you'll find in the commentaries of the I Ching and in neoconfucianism FI Chou Tun-i. Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU Sat Jan 16 00:54:39 1999 From: hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU (H.M.Hubey) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 19:54:39 -0500 Subject: etymology of tree name "maraam" and the geography of the mara am t ree Message-ID: <161227045288.23782.1247469328279153758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Chandrasekaran, Periannan wrote: > > > I rememeber reading that there are supposed to be some similarities > between Tamil (Dravidian) and Turkic-Altaic langauges? > Is that what we are seeing here? It looks that way. > chandra -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From indtimes at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jan 16 01:20:58 1999 From: indtimes at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (indtimes@del2) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 20:20:58 -0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227045254.23782.10798493162456563916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ???`????,??,????`????,??,????`????,??,????`???? 1st INDIA BOOK FAIR ON INTERNET In Collaboration With FPBA & DSBPA from 1st jan 99 - 1st march 99 ???`????,??,????`????,??,????`????,??,????`???? INVITATION Dear Book Lovers: We are pleased to invite you, our valued customers, to the launch of 1st India Book Fair on Internet. You can meet lot of leading Indian Publishers online. They are online with their exciting publications. 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They will feel happy to be on this unique event. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PLEASE DON'T FORGET TO MAKE THIS SITE A BOOKMARK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.indiabookfair.com ******************************************************************************** From abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET Sat Jan 16 02:11:40 1999 From: abbas at BETA.IOPB.STPBH.SOFT.NET (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 21:11:40 -0500 Subject: Nehru and Persian/Arabic In-Reply-To: <01BE4080.14465DE0@dc2-modem746.dial.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <161227045258.23782.11344901499319970296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thomas de Bruijn wrote: > For students of Hindi and > Urdu it proves just as big a pain to learn Arabic as for any other, Yet Hindi films are widely screened in the Arab world. Some are dubbed, but many ARE NOT. Arabs can easily understand Hindustani after watching a few Hindi films. The same goes vice versa. `Pure Urdu' (good ones) dictionaries contain only Arabic and Persian words, and the script is the same. For students of French and Spanish it proves just as big a pain to learn Latin as those of Hindustani to learn New Persian. > I can tell from experience. Did you learn Khari Boli first or Urdu ? From your statement below I see that you are a student of Sanskrit (that explains many things) > Persian is another matter, but my > background in Sanskrit helped me more with that than my Hindi. So Persian and Arabic are also derived from Sanskrit ? > Vocabulary, and that is what Ar. Pe. and Hi/Ur/Hindustani have in > common, So we agree that vocabulary is common. > is only part of language and even in that there are a lot of "Falsche > Freunde" as the Germans say: similar words in different languages that > do not have similar meanings. Here old d e Saussure and his "langue" and > "parole" also kick in. One has to learn to use the vocabulary in its > syntactic and linguistic context. This makes that it is not easier for > anyone who knows Hindi/Urdu to learn Arabic if only at a very basic > level, It is easy at a very basic level. Of course, poetry is a different question. It is also difficult for a Frenchman to learn Latin poetry, as it is for a Tamil to read Old Tamil poetry. > let alon e read poetry or any other sophisticated and highly > contextualized forms of speech. I think you, an English speaker, will find Anglo-Saxon poetry quite involved. You may also require an English - Anglo-Saxon dictionary. >A good example is the famous Persian dictionary by Steingass. It is a >preferred tool for students of Arabic as it is not based on the roots of >verbs, like the Arabic dictionaries, but gives all the inflected >participles and mazdars separately. The trap li es in choosing the right >meaning from the many alternatives. The specific context of the Persian >language is the clue to what its compiler meant, making the dictionary >very impracticle for reading modern Urdu. After a while the systematic >nature of the Ar abic dictionary, once mastered, is a much better tool >for >learning Arabic (and an Urdu dictionary is better for Urdu). Just like a French dictionary is better for learning French than a Latin dictionary is for learning French. > A similar >case would be the use of Monier Williams for looking up tatsamas in >Hindi. What is this `tatsamas in Hindi' ? Sanskritisation is a very late process in the history of Hindi, occurring in the late 19th centrury due to the upsurge in Vaishnava fundamentalism. It seems you are confusing Khari Boli, Braj Bhasa etc. (which are Prakrits, and have a substantial tatsama element) with Hindustani. The former are almost dead, having been replaced by Hindustani. Of course, a person who has learned Khari Boli or Braj will not be able to understand any Arabic. Hindustani has a negligible tatsama element. I can refer you to Madan Gopal's `This Hindi and Dev Nagari' for showing linguistically that there are no tatsamas in original Hindi. In fact, Bengali originally did not have any tatsamas (only 5 % of them). The % of Sanskrit increased till a climax in the 19th century. ( cf. S.K.Chatterjee, Origin and Development of the Bengali Language) So in both Hindustani and Bengali (and many other Indian languages) we find a marked increase in Sanskritisation in the 19th century. Nagari Hindi is derived from Hindustani, which is in turn derived from Urdu. Nagari Hindi is thus an artificial language created in the 19th century. Unfortunately, they left the Perso-Arabic word `Hindi' as the name of the language, thereby betraying its true origins. I think you have seen some Sanskrit dictionaries masquerading as Hindi ones. One can also find such ones for Bengali etc. I can also find Latinised dictionaries for English, and then claim that English is derived from Latin and is not a Germanic language. So finding Sanskritised dictionaries of Hindustani does not mean that Hindi is derived from Sanskrit. > Exceptions may be strictly technical vocabularies such as that of > Koranic Arabic. But even there: Abu'l Kalam Azad made a translations > into Urdu of the Koran, not because it could be read easily by all > Urdu speakers. The Bible was also translated into French, Spanish etc. from Latin. That does not mean that French, Italian etc. are not derived from Latin. >The essence of the quote (see above) alludes me and seems to take up more >bandwidth than its relevance would justify. It's no use going over >debates again and again, but, just for the record, the statement that Urdu >or Hindustani is derived from Persian o r Arabic does not make any sense >linguistically. I won;t repeat what I have already stated, any interested readers are referred to the archives. Basically, I say that Hindustani belongs to the Iranian subgroup of Indo-Iranian langauges and is derived from New Persian, an event which occurred in the camps (Urdus) of Mahumd of Ghazni. >Statements like that are part of the discourse of >linguistic politics and not of that of Indology. Then so should Kak's statements on this list attempting to prove that Dravidian languages are derived from Sanskrit, and his threads on Vedic Anatolia, etc. They took up much more bandwidth, yet are somehow not the cause of any concern. > Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani is a complex Modern Indo-Aryan language and > deserves to be treated as such by Indological scholars. On the topic > which started off this thread: Nehru was very fond of Persian poetry, > which he probably knew better than his English or Hindi. > Could that have been of any > influence, apart from the fact that a substantial portion of the > literature that was made in India (is that the same as Indian > literature?) is written in Persian? That is the same as Indian literature if the literature that was made in America, written as English, counts as American literature. If you wish to define American literature as comprising only that in Sioux, Iroquois etc., then that is your definition. Is literture written in Dutch in The Netherlands the same as Netherlandic literature ? Or is it just the literature in Celtic, the language spoken in the Netherlands before the Germanic peoples invaded, exterminating the Celts? Or is it just Latin literature produced in Holland, the language of the civilised Romans, before they were massacred by the Dutch Germanic invaders ? Is Dutch derived from the pre-Germanic Celtic and Latin ? Its script is Latin, just as is all its scientific literature. At least Urdu kept its script and vocabulary. Is English literature created in Britain the same thing as British literature ? Or is British literature only the literature of the Celts (Scottish, Cornish, Irish etc.) before they were exterminated by the barbaric Germanic Anglo-Saxon invaders ? Samar From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Jan 15 16:54:50 1999 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 21:54:50 +0500 Subject: Classical vs. Modern Message-ID: <161227045260.23782.13156815121177407181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You know as much English as I do. Please look up a dictionary. Why are French, Spanish, Italian not called Classsical languges? But Latin is. Classical Greek and Modern Greek are different languages. Only the Classical Greek is a Classical language, just like Classical Arabic. Such distinction is not maintenable in the case of Tamil. For all written and formal spoken purposes (for modern communication and in media) it is the literary Tamil that is used because of diglossia. Arabic also has diglossia but when we refer to Arabic in the Indian context, we mean only the Classical Arabic. The information that the UGC gives more funding for the Classica languages as opposed to modern lgs. is false. I have been in the field of higher education for over four decades and I know it is false. I want the purport of my statements to be taken in spirit not in letter. They were well meaning to improve the image of India and Indology. You have seen how monopolizing of the list by a few to talk about inane things is looked upon by more serious scholars. Bh.K. At 06:54 15/01/99 PST, you wrote: >In a message dated 1/13/99 12:29:12 PM Central Standard Time, I wrote: > >> In a message dated 1/13/99 7:24:45 AM Central Standard Time, >> bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN writes: >> >> > The pathetic appeal of one list member to place >> > Tamil on the same footing as the Classical languages >> >-- Sanskrit, Persian and Arabic in India-- sounds ridiculous. >> >Tamil is a modern language and not a >> > classical language. Classical lgs are not the mother tongues >> > of any segment of natives in India. In the western world, >> > only Latin and Greek qualify as classical languages. >> >>Can Bh. Krishnamurti explain or define what a Classical language is? >>Thanks. > >I am still waiting for Bh. Krishnamurti to explain or define what > a Classical language is. > >Chris > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 (A.P.), India Telephone:40-7019665 E-mail: From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sat Jan 16 13:15:29 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 08:15:29 -0500 Subject: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045297.23782.240747771660863177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree with Prof. Nayak. It is important to know WHY so many Hindus converted to other religions over the centuries. Is it only because of coercion as some want us to believe or is it that conversion took place because a large section of the so-called low-caste people and "untouchables" willingly converted (and also were lured by other religions and religious leaders promising them false promises)? With the absence of any reliable statistics as to the number of people converted from Hinduism to Buddhism, Vaishnavism, Brahmoism, Sikhism, Islam, and Christianity and reasons for them to convert, this discussion is somewhat subjective. But that does not mean we overlook this extremely important issue. If orthodox (i.e., Brahminic) Hindus raise the question of conversion, isn't it only fair that they self-introspect why caste-based Brahminic Hinduism (which came later) co-opted and appropriated all the indigenous, tribal, and such forms of religious practices and brought them all (mostly by force and lies) under the so-called all-inclusive (read exploitative and oppressive) umbrella of hierarchichal Hinduism? Upon this background, question is, if people decide to convert to other religions, what moral ground does anyone have to re-convert them? Can one form of coercion (if any) be justified by another one? I would like to quote D. D. Kosambi here: "...Brahmans gradually penetrated whatever tribes and guild castes remained in ancient India, ... just as the White European settlers in America systematically destroyed the aboriginal natives ... This is a slow but systematic process that goes back to ancient times. Ramayan, Mahabharat, and especially the Puranas are full of such examples." [D. D. Kosambi. The Culture and Civilization of Ancient India in Historical Outline. Vikas Publishing House, New Delhi. 1992 reprint.] As D. D. Kosambi observes, during this process, new gods were introduced and gods unsuitable to the Brahminic needs were made inferior. "New places of pilgrimage were introduced with suitable myths to make them respectable though they could only have been savage, pre-Brahman cult spots. Buddha, and some totemic deities including the primeval Fish, Tortoise, and Boar were made into incarnations of Vishnu-Narayan. The monkey-faced Hanuman, so popular with the cultivators as to be a peculiar god of the peasantry with an independent cult of his own, becomes the faithful companion-servant of Ram, another incarnation of Vishnu." From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 16 16:57:41 1999 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 08:57:41 -0800 Subject: Hindu elan missionnaire Message-ID: <161227045312.23782.17356704212716941931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anand Nayak wonders whether there ever was something analogous to elan missionnaire in Hinduism. Two quick observations on that score: (1) Professor Arvind Sharma of McGill University, Montreal has written an article in Numen on a relevant point (I don't have the exact reference on hand right now); (2) I have a feeling that Buddhism might be construed as "Hindu" elan missionnaire since the Buddha is recognized as an incarnation of Vishnu. Shrinivas Tilak ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From george9252 at MSN.COM Sat Jan 16 15:14:48 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 10:14:48 -0500 Subject: [ADMIN: membership cancellation] (was Re: (no subject)) Message-ID: <161227045305.23782.5093943317144156467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Help! I posted NO commercial advertisement at all!!! What is this about? This was not me! Dr. George Cronk Bergen Community College Paramus, NJ george9252 at msn.com -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 9:50 AM Subject: [ADMIN: membership cancellation] (was Re: (no subject)) >Your membership of INDOLOGY is being cancelled as a result of the >commercial advertisement which you posted to the list today. This >advertisement was not made in any relevant context, for example as a minor >part of a general answer to a scholarly query (i.e., such and such a book >has a relevant text; it is available from xxx bookseller), and was simply >a piece of business promotion. > >The INDOLOGY list is absolutely not the place for promotion of business >interests, even if related to indological scholarship, and this practice >is considered a serious abuse of the list. > >I will, however, continue to keep a link to your bookshop on the INDOLOGY >website, along with links to other similar bookselling services. I am >happy for the time being to maintain a web area for online indological >bookstores, as I feel this is a reasonable service to list members, and is >something which members may seek out for themselves, rather than having it >sent to them unsolicited. > >Dominik Wujastyk > >On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, pradeep mittal wrote: > >> indian books on indology, history, rare and classic reprints, >> linguistics, general, ayurveda, sociology, religion, philosopphy, >> buddhism, jainism, zoroastranism, sacred books of china, hinduism, islam >> ,muslims, medieval history, tibetan studies, travalogues, >> please visit us at: www.lppindia.com >> that is Low Price Publications. >> We have published a number of books on these subjects. >> terms and conditions and shipping instructions and mode of payment >> everything is mentioned there on our website. >> thanks >> pradeep mittal >> > >-- >-- >Dominik Wujastyk >http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html > From Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH Sat Jan 16 11:14:11 1999 From: Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH (Anand Nayak) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 12:14:11 +0100 Subject: Conversions Hindu-Christian and Christian-Hindu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045291.23782.13875666829236567145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, In the wake of violences committed against Christians in India today (I have a list of 113 and more incidents available to whoever interested to read them), probably we could contribute to clarify textually the Hindu point of view on conversions from one religion to the other. Why does Hinduism does not seek to preach its dharma to the others? It is an evidence that the Hindus - except for the Hare-Krishnas- are all only from the Indian races; the Buddhists on the other hand have have gone out of India and inculturateded many races and cultures of the world. Apparently there is no ?lan missionnaire in Hinduism. And on what doctrinal grounds can a Hindu oppose to conversions to Christianity? Refreces to indological texts are welcome. A. Nayak Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Route du Jura CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1316 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 16 21:28:12 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 13:28:12 -0800 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045323.23782.423684651340758588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In connection with the postings of Anand Nayak and Partha Banerjee, may I add my $0.02? >It is important to know WHY so many Hindus converted to other religions over the centuries. Is it only because of coercion as some want us to believe or is it that conversion took place because a large section of the so-called low-caste people and "untouchables" willingly converted (and also were lured by other religions and religious leaders promising them false promises)?>> Since there are( as you pointed out) no statistics to talk about conversions between Buddhism, Sikhism, Islam, it is difficult to verify the exact mechanism though I believe that the whole business of conversion for benefits i.e. conversion to Christianity from the lower castes was predominant in the tribal areas, Southern India and the Assam area in the last century. Conversion to Christianity by the Portuguese( in Goa) and conversion to Islam were( atleast to a very large part) conversions thru the sword. This can be verified by the fact that in both cases, even members of the higher castes( the haves as opposed to have-nots) converted in large numbers( read for example Benazir Bhutto's "Daughter of the East" where she boasts about their Rajput ancestry or the "Dawn", the leading Paki newspaper is full of matrimonials refering to Khatri/Rajput specific matrimonials by Muslims); this despite the fact that Islam does not recognize caste. Likewise the high proportion of Gauda Saraswat Brahmins who converted to Christianity in Goa is supported by the general nature of conversion in the Portuguese ruled countries and the fact that Hindu temples in Goa e.g. the Mangeshi temple are still the recepient of grants from ostensibly Christian families. While Kosambi may be correct about ancient India, he hardly refers to mediaval(sic) India and his comments cannot be extrapolated to history of a later period. In addition, is Brahmoism a separate religion? I was always under the impression that while Raja Ram Mohum Ray was influenced by Christianity and the Brahmo Samaj did not accept many Hindu customs of the time, it is still a sect within Hinduism. I would appreciate any clarifications about this issue. Regards, Krishna > >I would like to quote D. D. Kosambi here: > >"...Brahmans gradually penetrated whatever tribes and guild castes remained >in ancient India, ... just as the White European settlers in America >systematically destroyed the aboriginal natives ... This is a slow but >systematic process that goes back to ancient times. Ramayan, Mahabharat, >and especially the Puranas are full of such examples." > >[D. D. Kosambi. The Culture and Civilization of Ancient India in Historical >Outline. Vikas Publishing House, New Delhi. 1992 reprint.] > >As D. D. Kosambi observes, during this process, new gods were introduced >and gods unsuitable to the Brahminic needs were made inferior. "New places >of pilgrimage were introduced with suitable myths to make them respectable >though they could only have been savage, pre-Brahman cult spots. Buddha, >and some totemic deities including the primeval Fish, Tortoise, and Boar >were made into incarnations of Vishnu-Narayan. The monkey-faced Hanuman, >so popular with the cultivators as to be a peculiar god of the peasantry >with an independent cult of his own, becomes the faithful companion-servant >of Ram, another incarnation of Vishnu." > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Sat Jan 16 13:02:15 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 14:02:15 +0100 Subject: Figures and quotas Message-ID: <161227045295.23782.6501540397940998490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, The subject of moderation has been discussed already on this list in February 1995 and the list owner, Dominik Wujastyk, expressed his feelings about it in a posting that has now http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9502&L=indology&O=A&P=11261 as its URL (on 1995 February 16th). I believe his arguments are still valid: self-restraint is better and more humane. Of course, somebody might want to start a new, moderated, list, like the LINGUIST list, but he should know that the cost will be high, in terms of money and time (some people are doing moderation full time for LINGUIST, and have to be paid for that) And it seems that the (1/20th) proportion rule (tamil mA) I suggested is acceptable to some of those concerned ... :-) as far as I can read ... Best wishes to all. -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) From langstonrob at JUNO.COM Sat Jan 16 19:16:00 1999 From: langstonrob at JUNO.COM (robert b langston) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 14:16:00 -0500 Subject: Hindu new years day Message-ID: <161227045320.23782.9499595061883215226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Martin or Krish, Is there a text that can be recommended to an artist interested in being introduced to Hindu astrology? Are the Islamic astrological observatories such as the ones in Delhi and in Jaipur influenced at all by Hindu astrological systems? Are there existing Hindu astrological observatories (apart from temples) that are comparable? Thanks, Robert From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Jan 16 14:49:19 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 14:49:19 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN: membership cancellation] (was Re: (no subject)) In-Reply-To: <36A07E7D.E8A@nde.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045300.23782.16300288378984064383.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Your membership of INDOLOGY is being cancelled as a result of the commercial advertisement which you posted to the list today. This advertisement was not made in any relevant context, for example as a minor part of a general answer to a scholarly query (i.e., such and such a book has a relevant text; it is available from xxx bookseller), and was simply a piece of business promotion. The INDOLOGY list is absolutely not the place for promotion of business interests, even if related to indological scholarship, and this practice is considered a serious abuse of the list. I will, however, continue to keep a link to your bookshop on the INDOLOGY website, along with links to other similar bookselling services. I am happy for the time being to maintain a web area for online indological bookstores, as I feel this is a reasonable service to list members, and is something which members may seek out for themselves, rather than having it sent to them unsolicited. Dominik Wujastyk On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, pradeep mittal wrote: > indian books on indology, history, rare and classic reprints, > linguistics, general, ayurveda, sociology, religion, philosopphy, > buddhism, jainism, zoroastranism, sacred books of china, hinduism, islam > ,muslims, medieval history, tibetan studies, travalogues, > please visit us at: www.lppindia.com > that is Low Price Publications. > We have published a number of books on these subjects. > terms and conditions and shipping instructions and mode of payment > everything is mentioned there on our website. > thanks > pradeep mittal > -- -- Dominik Wujastyk http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From biernack at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 16 19:49:52 1999 From: biernack at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 14:49:52 -0500 Subject: Hindu elan missionnaire In-Reply-To: <19990116165742.8177.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045322.23782.764237859751370112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One point to keep in mind regarding Hindu missionaries is that it depends greatly upon how you define Hinduism. Certainly brahminical smarta practitioners were not missionaries, (although the apocryphal story of Kumaarila's virulent attitudes towards Buddhists and Jains makes one think twice) but the Bhakti movements were quite missionary oriented in their attempts to gains converts, cf. Shaivism in south India throughout the middle ages. And even if we define missionary to mean only "other countries outside India" --which is something of an anachronism and doesn'tmake too much sense in the context of India -- we still have to grapple with how a non-missionary religion made its way to Cambodia, for instance. all the best, Loriliai Biernacki University of Pennsylvania From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Jan 16 14:58:59 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 14:58:59 +0000 Subject: Figures and quotas In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990115124148.006c7934@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <161227045302.23782.9864248953192564003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jean-Luc, and colleagues, I am acutely aware of the continuing growth of volume of the INDOLOGY postings, which is not matched by a growth in quality. However, although there are periods when some threads on the list become degenerate in one way or another, I do not feel that things are going particularly badly at the moment. There are many interesting topics being discussed, and modern email clients make it an easy matter to arrange inboxes by topic, date, thread, and so forth. Client filtering can be used to automatically delete postings by people who annoy you. In short, if you are feeling overwhelmed by INDOLOGY, I suggest you take some time to explore the features of your email client, or upgrade to a modern program, and take control for yourself of what you read. I am not at present in a position to moderate the list formally, nor do I forsee a time when I will be willing or able to do so. As you will all know, I have few inhibitions about stamping my feet and shouting at people if I consider they are breaking The Rules, or about throwing people off the list for offences such as Pradeep Mittal's today. Since many members of the list find the volume of postings too high, and the scholarly quality not always adequate, may I exhort all of you who post to the list 1/ To limit your postings as much as you can 2/ To spend as much time listening as possible, and as little time speaking as possible. 3/ To make sure you don't repeat great chunks of previous postings as inclusions in your replies. If you are including more than about two lines (yes, TWO) of a previous posting, it is probably too much. 4/ To keep your postings down to a maximum of a screenful. 5/ To remain abreast of the latest journals (JAOS, BSOAS, IIJ, etc.). Dominik Wujastyk -- -- Dominik Wujastyk http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Sat Jan 16 22:43:44 1999 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 16:43:44 -0600 Subject: [ADMIN: membership cancellation] (was Re: (no subject)) Message-ID: <161227045327.23782.10635899501182460414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I first had this response also. But if you read the whole message, George, you will see that it is not addressed to you, but to the list and the book company. -----Original Message----- > >I posted NO commercial advertisement at all!!! What is this about? This >was not me! > From lpp at NDE.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jan 16 11:56:45 1999 From: lpp at NDE.VSNL.NET.IN (pradeep mittal) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 17:26:45 +0530 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <161227045294.23782.4036690929460966229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> indian books on indology, history, rare and classic reprints, linguistics, general, ayurveda, sociology, religion, philosopphy, buddhism, jainism, zoroastranism, sacred books of china, hinduism, islam ,muslims, medieval history, tibetan studies, travalogues, please visit us at: www.lppindia.com that is Low Price Publications. We have published a number of books on these subjects. terms and conditions and shipping instructions and mode of payment everything is mentioned there on our website. thanks pradeep mittal From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Jan 16 23:11:39 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 18:11:39 -0500 Subject: Hindu new years day In-Reply-To: <17261576527582@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045330.23782.15008813122015438168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Do people know much about Ayyappa festival in Kerala? Apparently people see a light on this sankranti day. Just heard that 51 people died in the stampede on the hillock. What's the light? Is there a natural cause? Any literature? Bijoy Misra From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sat Jan 16 17:26:15 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 18:26:15 +0100 Subject: Hindu new years day Message-ID: <161227045318.23782.5436389562915772609.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > This new year's day should actually be the summer equinox day ie. > when the sun traverses the equator which is on March 22 as per > gregorian calendar.However the pundits tell us that this new year > day refers to the day on which the sun enters the Mesha rasi. > This however does not gel with the notion that april 14th > is also the Uttarayana day which actually means summer equinox. > This anomaly is attributed to the errors which have crept into the > system on account of the length of the solar year adopted centuries > back and consequential cumulative error. No, this difference has nothing to do woth errors in the estimation of the solar year. It is caused by the precession of the equinoxes (the ayanaamsha). Hindu astrology is based on the sidereal zodiac, i.e., the actual stars in the sky, the positions of which will change about 50" of arc per year, coming full circle every 26,000 years or so. In the early centuries CE, the solar ingress into sidereal Aries (Mesha-sankraanti) happened to coincide with the vernal equinox. (There is no such thing as a summer equinox; what you have in summer is a solstice.) Such is no longer the case. Today, Mesha-sankraanti takes place in mid-April, some three weeks after the vernal equinox. Solar months, and hence years, are based on sankraantis. That is why the solar New Year falls in mid-April, with the solar ingress into the first sign of the zodiac. Uttaraayana does not begin with either the vernal equinox or Mesha-sankraanti; it begins with the winter solstice, around December 20-22. Best regards, Martin Gansten From george9252 at MSN.COM Sat Jan 16 23:52:25 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 18:52:25 -0500 Subject: [ADMIN: membership cancellation] (was Re: (no subject)) Message-ID: <161227045332.23782.15071221508770410398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops! I'm an idiot. Sorry. -----Original Message----- From: Claude Setzer To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [ADMIN: membership cancellation] (was Re: (no subject)) >I first had this response also. >But if you read the whole message, George, you will see that it is not >addressed to you, but to the list and the book company. > >-----Original Message----- >> >>I posted NO commercial advertisement at all!!! What is this about? This >>was not me! >> > From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Jan 17 05:02:53 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 21:02:53 -0800 Subject: Floodplains of Indus & Sarasvati rivers Message-ID: <161227045334.23782.15395789838286374123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here's a news item datelined: Reuters, Islamabad, Jan. 16: ON THE TRAIL OF A CIVILISATION.... Cunningham found no temples or traces of kings... instead he reported the recovery of some pottery, carved shells and a badly damaged seal depicting a one-horned animal... That seal was a mark of one of the world's great ancient civilizations... The Vedas, the oldest texts of the subcontinent, dating from some 3,500 years ago, made no mention of it, nor did the Bible... Yet 4,600 years ago, great cities arose along the floodplains of the ancient Indus and Sarasvati rivers in what is now Pakistan and northwest India... (Harappa)... the key to urbanisation was its location at the crossroads of several major trading routes... "What we're finding at Harappa for the first time is how the first cities started," says Mark Kenoyer, an archaeologist at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. Kenoyer, who was born in India to missionary parents, has been excavating at Harappa for the past 12 years...Kenoyer thinks the walls were created to control the flow of goods in and out of the city. "To get into the city, you had to pay a tax," Kenoyer explains. "If you produced things, you had to pay a tax to take goods out of the city. This is how a city gets revenues."... Indus Valley rulers... did leave behind elaborately carved stone seals, used to impress tokens or clay tabs on goods bound for market. In a conference held in Baroda University in December 1997, many geologists and other scholars, reviewed the palaeo-drainage systems of the Sarasvati river basin. Their findings seem to indicate that when the Harapan civilization was flourishing, ca. 2500 BC, Kalibangan was accessible by road from Harappa since the Sutlej river, the anchorage river of Sarasvati, had joined the latter at Shatrana, Punjab; hence, Ravi river was running closely parallel to Sarasvati river, both generating their floodplains... Kenoyer's observations on goods are interesting; these seem to jibe with a possible interpretation of the inscriptions (hieroglyphs: both pictorials and signs)as bills of material of bronze-age weapons (http://sarasvati.simplenet.com) Best regards, ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jan 17 02:43:28 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 21:43:28 -0500 Subject: references to tuLu language in ancient Tamil text In-Reply-To: <9130EFB0684CD211869E0020484016B512C1F5@satlmsgusr07.delta-air.com> Message-ID: <161227045307.23782.17431595537790373006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my opinion it would be a bit far fetched to assign such antiquity as to look for a referrance in such ancient work as Silappadikaram.I doubt whether even malayalam crystallised into a seperately recognisable dialect. Krish. From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jan 17 02:49:36 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 21:49:36 -0500 Subject: Hindu new years day Message-ID: <161227045310.23782.2085183890315749256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About Hindu Calendar Do we not have generally two systems of calenaers? The solar (saura masya) based and the lunara(chandrayana) The solar based calendar must have been the older system- for it has reached extremes of the land and stayed there. The lunar calender is very much in peninsular parts except the Tamil country.However, even where the saura masya system is the prevalent system,we fall back to lunar calender for all the festivals as well as for ritual functions as these are all tithi based whether for hindus,jains or sikhs. My point of enquiry here is about the new year's day-the solar new year's day falls on 14th april as per gregorian calendar. This new year's day should actually be the summer equinox day ie. when the sun traverses the equator which is on March 22 as per gregorian calendar.However the pundits tell us that this new year day refers to the day on which the sun enters the Mesha rasi. This however does not gel with the notion that april 14th is also the Uttarayana day which actually means summer equinox. This anomaly is attributed to the errors which have crept into the system on account of the length of the solar year adopted centuries back and consequential cumulative error. This error overthe past 1400 trs or so has accumalated to 22 days which is the difference between astronomical summer equinox and hindu solar new year. Yeras back the govt. set up a calender reforms commision. Though the commision was aware of the anomaly they glossed over the same and blandly adopted Mar 22 as the official new yrs day of the SAKA era . It would have been momentous had they roped in the clergy also and ensured adoption of Mar22 as new yrs day of the reformed hindu calendar. weare well aware such anomalies were sorted out even in christendom by adoption of reformed gregorian calendar in 16th century inspite of otherwise obscruntist approach ofthe church towards all other scientific matters. we however misssed the bus. List netters may have more information and comments on this . Krish. From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sat Jan 16 21:04:56 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 22:04:56 +0100 Subject: Introductions to Jyotihsastra Message-ID: <161227045325.23782.1480182114594141323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is there a text that can be recommended to an artist interested in being >introduced to Hindu astrology? That depends on what level of introduction you are looking for. As this is a scholarly list, I assume you are thinking primarily of scholarly studies, in which case I know only of David Pingree's work -- e.g., his translation of Sphujidhvaja's Yavanajataka. If list members know of other scholars active in this field, please fill me in! As you mention being an artist, you might be interested in a thesis on the iconography of Hindu planetary deities published a few years ago. Unfortunately, the author's name has slipped my mind. Does anyone else remember? There are, of course, plenty of introductions in the sense of do-it-yourself manuals, for those who want to learn Hindu astrology from the inside. Even if your interest is purely academic, it may be a good idea to read one or two of these, just to flesh out the picture. One that has been mentioned on this list before is deFouw's and Svoboda's "Light on Life". I'm afraid I'm rather ignorant when it comes to ancient observatories. Best regards, Martin Gansten From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jan 17 03:31:07 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 22:31:07 -0500 Subject: etymology of tree name "maraam" and the geography of the mara am t ree In-Reply-To: <9130EFB0684CD211869E0020484016B512C1F9@satlmsgusr07.delta-air.com> Message-ID: <161227045316.23782.1111411647174274855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The tree is such an entity that a part of life revolves around them for any community and not to have a generic name for trees would be strange indeed however ill-devoloped the language group is. Maram could not have been an imported or assimilated word. To compare it to farsi or turkish could be only coincidental-like someone who tried to link up english -military set up to tamil -make war! However, the etym. of maram needs a deeper search. Incidentally, the tamil chedi is generic for plants while in neighbouring telugu could also mean a tree- both are akin to jhad in northern languages. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sat Jan 16 17:39:43 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 22:39:43 +0500 Subject: Classical vs. Modern In-Reply-To: <19990116013911.518.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045314.23782.10185219502119738514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:39 PM 1/15/99 PST, you wrote: >Thanks very much for Bh. Krishnamurti's recommendation to look up a >dictionary. I wanted a definition from Bh. Krishnamurti because I >hoped he might have some rational explanation as to why he does not >want to recognize Classical Tamil. It is obvious he does not have one. > He has already very patiently explained his view why tamil cannot be called classical . This is because it is current and evloving and therefore changing. You may not agree with his view. That does not give you liberty to use disrespectful language. > >Having seen the postings by Bh. Krishnamurti, I feel that he will >immediately point to AKR's Tamil heritage and say that his judgement > is, therefore, biased. Please will you kindly quote the postings of Prof.Bh.Krishnamurti which made you feel that he will do any such thing. As far as I know he has not made any remarks against tamil. As a matter of fact he in his postings, he has clearly stated that tamil preserves quite a bit old dravidian usages. Please see the archives of Indology. But of course if any body claims that tamil is the only dravidian language that is a lie. >It should be noted that AKR was also equally >at home in Kannada and had translated Kannada poetry too. >(He was the recipient of the prestigious MacArthur Award.) In any >case, let me quote Siegfried Lienhard, author of "A >History of Classical Poetry: Sanskrit-Pali-Prakrit" in the > series "A History of Indian Literature" edited by Jan Gonda, >one of the foremost Sanskrit scholars. Discussing the common > elements between Classical Tamil poetry and Indo-Aryan poetry, >Lienhard notes in p. 73, "The correspondences are often so >clear that one cannot reject entirely the possibility of Dravidian >influence on early Prakrit and Sanskrit short poems. On the other > hand it seems improbable that muktaka poetry can have influenced > classical Tamil lyrical poems as caGkam poetry is not only older > than the earliest preserved muktaka stanzas; it had also risen to >far greater heights." > No body has made any remarks about A.K.Ramanujam. Hence all this is out of place. >So certainly, one does not need Bh. Krishnamurti's recommendation for >recognition of Tamil as a classical language on par with Arabic and >Greek. Reputed scholars have done that already. > This shows your irrational hatred towards him rather than any thing else. >Whatever be the positive and negative aspects of N. Ganesan's >postings, they have certainly done some good in this case. They > have serendipitously helped to expose the virulent anti-Tamil >feelings of Bh. Krishnamurti. Again please substantiate your remarks. > Under BhK's veneer of objective >academic scholarship lurks a classic embodiment of prejudice and >hatred. Interestingly, on another thread, there was a >recent discussion of the works of Nazis and their sympathizers, > and how to evaluate their contributions. Based on all these, >hereafter, I shall give due consideration to BhK's anti-Tamil > bias before I accept his linguistic findings involving Tamil. > I do not think it makes any difference to him. >If BhK cannot tolerate the concept of Tamil as a classical language >in the same way he is willing to accept Arabic and Greek, then he is >on the wrong list. All he has to do is look at the Scope of Indology >at the Indology list web site. He will find the sentence,"Indologists > typically have a formal training in classical Tamil, Sanskrit, >Prakrit, Persian, or other languages that bear on the history of > Indian culture." Thus the list officially recognizes classical Tamil. When the list officially recognises classical tamil why was this demand made on the Indology list? There is no necessity of the demand. What was the motive in raising the bogey of tamil being threatned? Who has threatned it? Were your postings censored? Did anybody prevent you for expressing your view? But if you expect others to simply accept whatever you post, that of course is impossible. > If BhK does not like this, he can always pick up his marbles and go > elsewhere. But, it is pathetic to appeal to listen to his >views based on his old age. Age is irrelevant in intellectual >discussions. If age were to be a criterion, one should pay more >respect to a piece of rock. However, one should note that its age >may be two billion years, but it does not have any knowledge or >wisdom. > > You have unwarrantedly used very uncivil language against a wellknown linguist and it is you who have to consider packing up and going else where if you do not like this list. regards, sarma. >Chris > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Sun Jan 17 16:35:36 1999 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 99 11:35:36 -0500 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045337.23782.1016436630978269967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Did not thousands of people convert to Budhism from hinduism during the reign of Asoka? Didn't many of those revert back to hinduism? What are these conversions attributed to? Sujatha P.S. Can't conversions be the result of man's constant search for God? -----Original Message----- From: S Krishna To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: 16 January, 1999 4:28 PM Subject: Re: The conversion issue >In connection with the postings of Anand Nayak and Partha Banerjee, >may I add my $0.02? > >>It is important to know WHY so many Hindus converted to other religions >over the centuries. Is it only because of coercion as some want us to >believe or is it that conversion took place because a large section of >the so-called low-caste people and "untouchables" willingly converted >(and also were lured by other religions and religious leaders promising >them false promises)?>> > >Since there are( as you pointed out) no statistics to talk about >conversions between Buddhism, Sikhism, Islam, it is difficult to verify >the exact mechanism though I believe that the whole business >of conversion for benefits i.e. conversion to Christianity from the >lower castes was predominant in the tribal areas, Southern India >and the Assam area in the last century. Conversion to Christianity by >the Portuguese( in Goa) and conversion to Islam were( atleast to a very >large part) conversions thru the sword. This can be verified >by the fact that in both cases, even members of the higher castes( the >haves as opposed to have-nots) converted in large numbers( read for >example Benazir Bhutto's "Daughter of the East" where she boasts about >their Rajput ancestry or the "Dawn", the leading Paki newspaper is full >of matrimonials refering to Khatri/Rajput specific matrimonials by >Muslims); this despite the fact that Islam does not recognize caste. >Likewise the high proportion of Gauda Saraswat Brahmins who converted to >Christianity in Goa is supported by the general nature of conversion in >the Portuguese ruled countries and the fact that Hindu temples in Goa >e.g. the Mangeshi temple are still the recepient of grants from >ostensibly Christian families. While Kosambi may be correct about >ancient India, he hardly refers to mediaval(sic) India and his comments >cannot be extrapolated to history of a later period. > >In addition, is Brahmoism a separate religion? I was always under the >impression that while Raja Ram Mohum Ray was influenced by Christianity >and the Brahmo Samaj did not accept many Hindu customs >of the time, it is still a sect within Hinduism. I would appreciate >any clarifications about this issue. > >Regards, >Krishna > > >> >>I would like to quote D. D. Kosambi here: >> >>"...Brahmans gradually penetrated whatever tribes and guild castes >remained >>in ancient India, ... just as the White European settlers in America >>systematically destroyed the aboriginal natives ... This is a slow but >>systematic process that goes back to ancient times. Ramayan, >Mahabharat, >>and especially the Puranas are full of such examples." >> >>[D. D. Kosambi. The Culture and Civilization of Ancient India in >Historical >>Outline. Vikas Publishing House, New Delhi. 1992 reprint.] >> >>As D. D. Kosambi observes, during this process, new gods were >introduced >>and gods unsuitable to the Brahminic needs were made inferior. "New >places >>of pilgrimage were introduced with suitable myths to make them >respectable >>though they could only have been savage, pre-Brahman cult spots. >Buddha, >>and some totemic deities including the primeval Fish, Tortoise, and >Boar >>were made into incarnations of Vishnu-Narayan. The monkey-faced >Hanuman, >>so popular with the cultivators as to be a peculiar god of the >peasantry >>with an independent cult of his own, becomes the faithful >companion-servant >>of Ram, another incarnation of Vishnu." >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 17 22:07:08 1999 From: wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Walker Trimble) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 99 17:07:08 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit translations in Nazi hands In-Reply-To: <199901121932.AAA13288@mbg.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045342.23782.4283501642438775504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:32 AM 1/13/99 +0500, you wrote: >And for everybody's information: I am not a (neo-)Nazi and am not German / >Swiss / Austrian / Rumanian / Ukrainian / Finnish / Italian / Spanish etc. >So none of that kind of innuendo will stick. > >Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos >Mysore (India) >e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com > As I was one of the members who initiated this string I feel some responsibility for the tone to which it has descended. I asked why so many thinkers who have proposed ideas of a kind of Universal Consciousness have been associated with fascism (or its origins). My interest was solely based on these thinkers' ideas and not on some sort of indictment. Max Mueller could not have been a Nazi, yet some of his ideas and those of other indologists were used by fascists. What is it about such ideas that makes them __available__ to fascist ideology? That was my question. I also stated my reason for posting that question on this list. A good deal of the discussion on the Indology listserv deals with all the aspects of the IE hypothesis. As Comparative Philology and then Comparative Mythology, Religion, &c. have their base in this field in the C.IXX, a historiographical examination into the climate surrounding these disciplines would help to provide a hermeneutical base for all contemporary attempts at comparing the cultures of the East and West. I never intended to foster any atmosphere of accusation or insinuation. Regards, Walker Trimble From wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 17 22:35:57 1999 From: wytrimbl at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Walker Trimble) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 99 17:35:57 -0500 Subject: Kumarila Bhatta's criticism of false etymologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045344.23782.5640989088174534354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:21 PM 1/15/99 EST, you wrote: >> From KumArila bhaTTa's TantravArttika (Vol. I, p 219), transl by Mm >> Ganganatha Jha, Sri Satguru Publications, Delhi, 1983. ] For those who want the Sanskrit, my notes show that this discussion appears in the TV's commentary on Jaiminimimamsasutra 1.3.10, "choditastu pratyetaavirodhaat pramaa.nena" There is a discussion of this section, among others, in Aloka Parashar. __Mleccha in India__. New Delhi: MRML, 1991. From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 18 03:09:02 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 99 19:09:02 -0800 Subject: Classical vs. Modern Message-ID: <161227045347.23782.559082172569807629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/16/99 11:11:00 AM Central Standard Time, narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > He has already very patiently explained his view why tamil > cannot be called classical . This is because it is current and > evloving and therefore changing. You may not agree with his view. > That does not give you liberty to use disrespectful language. Sarma is certainly not enhancing the reputation of Bh. Krishnamurti by his interpretation and defense of BhK's views on what a classical language is. If Sarma's reason for not considering Tamil to be a classical language is true, then in Greek and Arabic which BhK and he accept as classical languages, all language change has ceased. I am sure this is a revelation to linguists and other scholars on this list. If, indeed BhK shares in this view of Sarma, that is really shocking. I think before Sarma tries to interpret, paraphrase, and justify BhK's views on why Tamil cannot be called classical, he should heed BhK's suggestion and consult a standard English dictionary on what "classical" means. > Please will you kindly quote the postings of Prof.Bh.Krishnamurti > which made you feel that he will do any such thing. As far as I > know he has not made any remarks against tamil. As a matter of > fact he in his postings, he has clearly stated that tamil > preserves quite a bit > old dravidian usages. Please see the archives of Indology. But > of course if any body claims that tamil is the only dravidian > language that is a lie. BhK said, "Those who have such love should have stayed back in India instead of going for greener pastures in a foreign country and then start doing this kind of propaganda ad nauseum." This shows that BhK thinks that the persons who want the Indian government to recognize Tamil as a classical language are saying that because they have a Tamil background. (Even though, he uses the word "India", it is obvious he means the Tamil linguistic state of India.) Otherwise why would he comment on the ethnic origin of the persons proposing the recognition instead of arguing out the proposition on its own merits or lack thereof? Any way, who said Tamil is the only Dravidian language? If others want to present information from texts in other languages, that will be a welcome contribution to the list. Instead of doing positive things like that, why unfairly criticize some for posting information which many list members find valuable? > No body has made any remarks about A.K.Ramanujam. Hence all this is > out of place. BhK wrote, "The pathetic appeal of one list member to place Tamil on the same footing as the Classical languages-- Sanskrit, Persian and Arabic in India-- sounds ridiculous." In a reply to BhK's post, Maureen Fadem quoted A. K. Ramanujan as saying, " "Tamil is one of the two classical languages of India, is the only language of contemporary India which is recognizably continuous with a classical past." When both statements are evaluated together, it becomes obvious that according to BhK, AKR's statement also sounds ridiculous. That is why I gave AKR's own explanation as to why he considers Tamil to be a classical language. If Sarma does not see the relevance of the discussion of the views of AKR and Lienhard, I will not be surprised. After all he is the one who, in another thread, equates the transmission of mahAbhASya tradition among the ancient grammarians/scholars with "mass scale cultural diffusion". > >So certainly, one does not need Bh. Krishnamurti's > >recommendation for recognition of Tamil as a classical > >language on par with Arabic and > >Greek. Reputed scholars have done that already. > This shows your irrational hatred towards him rather than any >thing else. Certainly not. Anybody can see that I have defended my positions rationally. > >Whatever be the positive and negative aspects of N. Ganesan's > >postings, they have certainly done some good in this case. They > > have serendipitously helped to expose the virulent anti-Tamil > >feelings of Bh. Krishnamurti. > Again please substantiate your remarks. I had come to know about BhK's accomplishments through his publications. It is shocking for me to find that a historical/comparative linguist who ought to know his "science of etymology" cannot rationally explain the meaning of the word 'classical', but keeps insisting that Tamil cannot be called classical while Greek and Arabic can be. This as well as his comments involving the ethnic origin of N. Ganesan mean that his position is motivated by anti-Tamil feelings rather than any defensible reason. > When the list officially recognises classical tamil why was > this demand made on the Indology list? There is no necessity of > the demand. What was the motive in raising the bogey of tamil being > threatned? Who has threatned it? Were your postings censored? > Did anybody prevent you for expressing your view? But if you expect > others to simply accept whatever you post, that of course is > impossible. N. Ganesan wanted the Indian government and not the Indology list to recognize Tamil as a classical language. If there had been any question about the justification for such a demand or how it relates to Indology, one can always seek clarification as another member did. On my part, I have never suggested that people accept whatever is being posted. > > If BhK does not like this, he can always pick up his marbles > > and go elsewhere. But, it is pathetic to appeal to listen to his > >views based on his old age. Age is irrelevant in intellectual > >discussions. If age were to be a criterion, one should pay more > >respect to a piece of rock. However, one should note that its age > >may be two billion years, but it does not have any knowledge or > >wisdom. > You have unwarrantedly used very uncivil language against > a wellknown linguist and it is you who have to consider packing up > and going else where if you do not like this list. People in glass houses should not throw stones at others. Of course, in Sarma's sense of equity, BhK can state people should not have left India and gone abroad (in other words, if they are abroad presently, they should leave their present country of residence and go home to India), if they do not conform to his expectations of how and what should be posted on the list. But, others cannot say that he should get off the list if he cannot tolerate what is found in the scope of the Indology list. Sarma conveniently forgot one thing. I did not post anything contradicting what is in the scope of the list. If BhK and Sarma want to dish out unwarranted comments, they should be able to take whatever warranted comments coming their way too. That, of course, willbe asking them to be logical. Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 18 12:46:58 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 04:46:58 -0800 Subject: Classical vs. Modern Message-ID: <161227045351.23782.2995443130653240155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Chris, Most of the postings by D. V. N. Sarma, if they are replies/retorts to anything Tamil, can be answered the way you have done. Best regards, Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 18 12:57:50 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 04:57:50 -0800 Subject: Figures and quotas Message-ID: <161227045354.23782.6805309617755832610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Now that the list founder-owner has declined his time to moderate, may be either Jean-Luc or Paul Pearsons is ready to spare their good amount of time to moderate the list ?? Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 18 15:46:27 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 07:46:27 -0800 Subject: Hindu elan missionnaire Message-ID: <161227045360.23782.6957300044469086482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hindu elan missionnaire <<< I have a feeling that Buddhism might be construed as "Hindu" elan missionnaire since the Buddha is recognized as an incarnation of Vishnu. >>> Sanskritized elites viewed Buddha this way that suits them and occurs very late in the chronology of Hinduism. After all, Buddhism cannot be classified as a subsect of Hinduism. Hinduism did not spread to places where the caste is not present whereas Buddhism did spread all over the Orient due to its secular nature. Bhakti mass movement, with virulent attacks on Buddhists and Jains, was started in the Tamil South by Nayanmars and Alvars. This bhakti mass movement spreads to Karnataka and Andhra and further North in the following centuries. This is purely a missionary movement. Saint Appar who converted back to Saivism from Jainism also converted the Pallava king, Mahendravarman. His younger companion, Saint Gnanasambandhar converted the Madurai Pandyan to Saivism. From 3rd and 4th centuries AD, the same people from the extreme South India took Shaivism/Vaishnavism to Southeast Asia. Note that Funan kingdom started by KauNDiNyavarman and Gnanasambandhar is from KauNDiNya gotram also. Because of the basic nature of Hinduism that it won't flourish without varNa system, Hinduism gave way to the more secular Buddhism in Southeast Asia later. In other words, Hinduism is basically the varNa scheme. Some call it varNa racism/conspiracy. For Hinduism to thrive in the future, 1) priesthood must be open to all who have a degree in the official language of the Indian state where the priest works and in Sanskrit and 2) Sankaracharyaship must be thrown open to anyone irrespective of caste if s/he is well versed in Sanskrit. Shrinivas Tilak wrote about the `danger' of Hinduism becoming a minority in another thread. Sanskritized elites must make space for Tamil, dalits, tribals, Dravidian culture. Otherwise, the 'danger' will turn into a reality. This is after all a post-enlightenment era where humane and secular things compete in the world arena and win. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From das at NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 18 17:32:17 1999 From: das at NETCOM.COM (Das Devaraj) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 09:32:17 -0800 Subject: Hindu elan missionnaire In-Reply-To: <19990118154628.23857.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045366.23782.2945498488722395131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Because of the basic nature of Hinduism > that it won't flourish without varNa system, > Hinduism gave way to the more secular Buddhism in > Southeast Asia later. > > In other words, Hinduism is basically the varNa scheme. Is the above sweeping generalization meant to apply to what happened in the past or present? > For Hinduism to thrive in > the future, 1) priesthood must be open to all who have a degree > in the official language of the Indian state where > the priest works and in Sanskrit and 2) Sankaracharyaship > must be thrown open to anyone irrespective > of caste if s/he is well versed in Sanskrit. There was an effort under way to have female priests in India - can't remember where exactly (somewhere in Maharashtra???). Also, in Kerala they have priests in all kinds of sects, irrespective of the varna. IMHO there is no "accepted" definition of who a Hindu is. It seems that anybody and everybody who have an agenda, seem to push their own definition. The legal definition, according to http://www.hinduismtoday.kauai.hi.us/December96.html#gen319 "The Indian Supreme Court, in 1966, formalized a judicial definition of Hindu beliefs to legally distinguish Hindu denominations from other religions in India. This list was affirmed by the Court as recently as 1995 in judging cases regarding religious identity. 1) Acceptance of the Vedas with reverence as the highest authority in religious and philosophic matters and acceptance with reverence of Vedas by Hindu thinkers and philosophers as the sole foundation of Hindu philosophy. 2) Spirit of tolerance and willingness to understand and appreciate the opponent's point of view based on the realization that truth is many-sided. 3) Acceptance of great world rhythm--vast periods of creation, maintenance and dissolution follow each other in endless succession--by all six systems of Hindu philosophy. 4) Acceptance by all systems of Hindu philosophy of the belief in rebirth and pre-existence. 5) Recognition of the fact that the means or ways to salvation are many. 6) Realization of the truth that numbers of Gods to be worshiped may be large, yet there being Hindus who do not believe in the worshiping of idols. 7) Unlike other religions, or religious creeds, Hindu religion's not being tied down to any definite set of philosophic concepts, as such." Read the full article given at the above URL -- makes for interesting reading. They present other non-legal definitions also. das From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jan 18 15:02:09 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 10:02:09 -0500 Subject: JOB POSTING: South Asia Message-ID: <161227045358.23782.11999707901558531704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following position announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the ACADEMIC POSITIONS section of SARAI. Please contact the announcers directly as below for any further information. DO NOT SEND APPLICATIONS OR QUERIES TO ME. David Magier SARAI (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai) ------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:12:55 -0500 (EST) From: "Annelissa M. Gray-Lion" Subject: Announcement for Posting Please share this with interested individuals. Questions may be directed to Library Human Resources, (734) 764-2546, or graylion at umich.edu UNIVERSITY LIBRARY UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN ANN ARBOR, MI 48109-1205 ANNOUNCEMENT OF VACANCY SOUTH ASIA BIBLIOGRAPHER AREA PROGRAMS, SOUTH ASIA DIVISION DUTIES: Under the supervision of the Head, South and Southeast Asia Divisions, the South Asia Bibliographer is responsible for day-to-day operation of the Division, including both technical and public services. Primary responsibilities include: * Selection of materials in all formats and languages relating to and in support of the University's South Asia program; * Setting cataloguing priority for technical services and South Asia Division cataloguing staff; * Providing reference services for South Asia studies; * Outreach, including the maintenance of contacts with faculty and students affiliated with the Center for South Asian Studies, other interested academic departments, the local community; * Fund raising and grant proposal writing; * Contact with colleagues in the field. In addition, depending on other qualifications, 35% of total time will be given to responsibilities assigned in another area of the Graduate Library or Area Programs, in such areas as technology support for the four Area Programs units and selection in specific areas of religious studies, social sciences, or history. QUALIFICATIONS: Required: Graduate degree, either an MLS or MA/MS in an appropriate subject area. Solid working knowledge of at least two classical and/or modern South Asian languages. Working knowledge of bibliographic sources and processes in South Asian studies. Experience in the South Asia book trade and western vendors of materials on South Asia studies. Demonstrated ability to work effectively within a large, multicultural organization. Effective written and oral communication skills. Desired: Ph.D. in South Asia studies or a cognate field. Knowledge of, or academic background in, Buddhist or Islamic studies. Experience in the South Asia book selection, cataloguing, acquisitions, and/or reference in a research library. Knowledge of one or more Western European language. Practical or research background cognate areas in religious studies, social sciences, or history. Technical services background related to South Asia studies. Substantial experience in computer technology, particularly as it relates to non-roman script languages. Supervisory experience. RANK, SALARY, & LEAVE: Rank of Associate Librarian/Curator. Final salary dependent on years of previous relevant professional experience. (Minimum salary - $34,500); 24 working days of vacation a year; 15 days of sick leave a year with provisions for extended benefits. RETIREMENT PLAN: TIAA/CREF retirement plan; Fidelity Investments TO APPLY: Send cover letter & copy of resume to: Lucy Cohen; Library Human Resources; 404 Hatcher Graduate Library North; University of Michigan; Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1205 APPLICATION DEADLINE: Applications received by 3/15/99 will be given first consideration. The University of Michigan is a non-discriminatory, affirmative action employer. From hart at POLBOX.COM Mon Jan 18 11:18:05 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 12:18:05 +0100 Subject: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045349.23782.6918927967819824190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Conversion" it seems may mean different things in different contexts. In the case of Buddhism - to what extent was it necessary for the people who wished to embrace Buddhism as lay followers (upasakas/upasikas) to leave their Hinduism? In the case of Islam/Christianity - were the conversions of Indian tribals and untouchables conversions from Hinduism? Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland ----------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ----------------- Do konca stycznia Internetowy Pakiet Biznesowy o 244PLN taniej. Szczegoly http://sklep.optimus.com.pl --------------------------------------------------------------- From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 18 20:23:12 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 12:23:12 -0800 Subject: Hindu elan missionnaire Message-ID: <161227045374.23782.6172120208708132377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> +++ In other words, Hinduism is basically the varNa scheme. + Is the above sweeping generalization meant to apply to what + happened in the past or present. While in doubt, check "The Laws of Manu", and B. K. Smith, Classifying the Universe: the ancient Indian varNa system and the origins of caste, OUP, 1994 Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From garzilli at SHORE.NET Mon Jan 18 11:24:58 1999 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 12:24:58 +0100 Subject: Asiatica Ass.: JSAWS 4-1 Message-ID: <161227045356.23782.15953128436310954855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am glad to inform you that you can read the *Journal of South Asia Women Studies* vol. 4, no. 1 on our WWW page http://www.asiatica.org/ Bagchee Associates, a leading Indological book dealer (http://www.bagchee.com) supports this publication. You will be able to read the JSAWS only becoming a member of the journal (*Life* membership: US$ 35). See: http://www.asiatica.org TABLE OF CONTENTS NOTE FROM THE EDITOR: The *Asiatica Association * PAPER: * The Peasant Women's Movement in the Philippines: Alternative Perspectives on Development* by Ligaya Lindio-McGovern PAPER REVIEW: *Pretty Plant in Arid Soil: Misogyny and Genteel Morality in Satyajit Ray's Charulata *, by Narasingha P. Sil. NEW TITLES: *Frauenforschung International. Dokumentation/Bibliographie. Teil 2/3: Asien, Ozeanien, Australien *, by Margarete Maurer and Barbara Smetschka, Wienna: Verein fuer Interdisziplinaere Forschung und Praxis/ Rosa-Luxenburg-Institut, 1997. Pp. LIX+ 860. ISBN 3-901229-04-3. Price DM 128. (E.G.) *The Calf Became an Orphan. A Study in Contemporary Kannada Fiction *, by Robert J. Zydenbos, 1996 (Institut Francais de Pondichery & Ecole Francaise d'Extreme Orient). Pp. XVII + 301. ISSN 0073-8352 (E. G.) COPYRIGHT NOTICE ************************************************* Abstract of the paper: * The Peasant Women's Movement in the Philippines: Alternative Perspectives on Development* by Ligaya Lindio-McGovern This paper examines the alternative views on development that the peasant women's movement in the Philippines is forging. The main focus is on AMIHAN, the National Federation of Peasant Women in the Philippines, and one of its local chapters in Mindoro, KAMMI (Kababaihang Magbubukid ng Mindoro, translated as Peasant Women of Mindoro).[1] It is appropriate to focus on AMIHAN for two reasons: (1) it is the national non-governmental organization that leads the peasant women's movement in the Philippines, and (2) it advocates for development policies that offer alternatives to what are currently legitimized by the Philippine government. Lindio-McGovern gathered the data presented in this paper during her fieldwork in the Philippines in the Summers of 1989 and 1996. She interviewed a total of 39 Filipino peasant women: 35 were members of KAMMI and four were national leaders of AMIHAN. She also participated in, observed, and took down field notes about their activities, as well as gathered and content analyzed their organizational documents. To have a direct experience of the village life of the peasant women of KAMMI, she stayed in Mindoro and visited the villages of some of the peasant women. She did most of the interviews and observations during the 1989 fieldwork. In 1996 she went back to the Philippines in order to observe first hand new developments there. AMIHAN was formally launched in 1986 to organize peasant women on the national level and to advocate for agrarian reforms that will respond to the particular situation of peasant women. In this paper, the Author will focus on the following themes in AMIHAN's views on development: a) peasant women and land reform, b) peasant women, usury and control of traders, c) peasant women, foreign debt, the International Monetary Fund, and GATT (General Agreement on Tariff and Trade), and d) empowerment not integration into an exploitative nature of Philippine development.[2] ********************************************************************** Have a nice reading! -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From bvi at AFN.ORG Mon Jan 18 22:28:17 1999 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 17:28:17 -0500 Subject: Wooden Structure at Patna (Pataliputra) Message-ID: <161227045375.23782.6284585930502114216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A wooden structure was unearthed in Patna (the ancient city of Pataliputra) back in the 1920s. Some identified it with a wooden palisade mentioned by Megasthenes. Do any of you have more information on the archaeology of this site and the wooden structure found there? Thank you for your help. Chris Beetle From fademm at CASTLE.BEAVER.EDU Mon Jan 18 23:42:10 1999 From: fademm at CASTLE.BEAVER.EDU (Maureen Fadem) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 18:42:10 -0500 Subject: Hindu elan missionnaire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045377.23782.4848995368177286525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hi das... from ALBasham, _The Origins and Development of Classical Hinduism_, (oxford, 1989, isbn: 0-19-507349-5): "We refer to these new accounts of the origin of all things to show the richness and variety of Upanishadic literature. Here, one after the other, we meet three legends, ascribing primacy to Death, Brahman and a personal self, respectively. These divergent myths of creation are paralleled by many other passages in the Upanishads and other ancient Indian religious texts, in which one passage seems to negate another that went before. There is no means of harmonizing such passages, though nearly all the early and many later commentators have attempted to do so. We must simply accept the fact that there was much difference of opinion among the mystics and ascetics who compiled the Upanishads, and the final redactor, the _Brhadaranyaka Upanishad_, preferred to give a number of points of view, leaving it to qualified listeners to decide which of them corresponded most closely with their own insights." (56) that is what i love the most about hindu philosophy. 'inherent contradiction' and openness of interpretation. :-) best, maureen. On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Das Devaraj wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Maureen Fadem wrote: > > hey, thanks for the info. very helpful. > > You are quite welcome. > > > seems odd tho' to me to define hinduism so specifically since one of the > > inherent qualities of that tradition is its indefinability. :) > > Do you realize how "prophetic" your words are? :-) > I did a stint (3 years) as a public relations volunteer for a temple in > Northern California. Hardly anybody ever wants to read the books in the > fledgling library I started there! Yet, some people who visited there > had firm beliefs about what Hinduism says about such and such. > > If the same had happened over the centuries, no wonder > Hinduism is undefinable today! > > das > From janbrz at MICROTEC.NET Tue Jan 19 02:55:47 1999 From: janbrz at MICROTEC.NET (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 18:55:47 -0800 Subject: Looking for books Message-ID: <161227045379.23782.17386055468415310028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I am looking for editions of GautamIya-tantra and/or Brihad-gautamiya-tantra. Does anybody know a library or publisher who has this book? Does anyone know the dates these books were composed? I am also looking for a scholar of the NimbArka-sampradAya who would be willing to correspond with me. Thank you very much. Jan Brzezinski From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Mon Jan 18 18:31:25 1999 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 20:31:25 +0200 Subject: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: <022a01be4237$6ab16e00$66c3a7d1@win98> Message-ID: <161227045339.23782.12849328348980569749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hallo Stephen Op zondag, 17-jan-99 schreef Stephen: S> Did not thousands of people convert to Budhism from hinduism during the S> reign of Asoka? Didn't many of those revert back to hinduism? What are S> these conversions attributed to? S> Sujatha S> P.S. Can't conversions be the result of man's constant search for God? Not very likely given the fact that buddhism rejects beliefs and gods. The cases of Ambedkar and Periyar suggest that conversion has been often motivated by political factors. Even today there're many dalits who don't consider themselves to be a hindu. Regards -- erik *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Erik Hoogcarspel < jehms at kabelfoon.nl >< Boerhaaveln 99b > < tl+31.(0)104157097 >< 3112 LE Schiedam > < fx+31.(0)842113137 >< Holland > *===================================================================================* From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Mon Jan 18 16:18:39 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 21:18:39 +0500 Subject: Classical vs. Modern In-Reply-To: <19990118030903.14905.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045362.23782.13089461189945019692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:09 PM 1/17/99 PST, you wrote: >In a message dated 1/16/99 11:11:00 AM Central Standard Time, >narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > >> He has already very patiently explained his view why tamil >> cannot be called classical . This is because it is current and >> evloving and therefore changing. You may not agree with his view. >> That does not give you liberty to use disrespectful language. > >Sarma is certainly not enhancing the reputation of Bh. Krishnamurti >by his interpretation and defense of BhK's views on what a classical >language is. If Sarma's reason for not considering Tamil to be a >classical language is true, then in Greek and Arabic which BhK and >he accept as classical languages, all language change has ceased. >I am sure this is a revelation to linguists and other scholars on >this list. If, indeed BhK shares in this view of Sarma, that >is really shocking. I think before Sarma tries to interpret, >paraphrase, and justify BhK's views on why Tamil cannot be called >classical, he should heed BhK's suggestion and consult a standard > English dictionary on what "classical" means. > >> Please will you kindly quote the postings of Prof.Bh.Krishnamurti >> which made you feel that he will do any such thing. As far as I >> know he has not made any remarks against tamil. As a matter of >> fact he in his postings, he has clearly stated that tamil >> preserves quite a bit >> old dravidian usages. Please see the archives of Indology. But >> of course if any body claims that tamil is the only dravidian >> language that is a lie. > >BhK said, "Those who have such love should have stayed back in >India instead of going for greener pastures in a foreign country >and then start doing this kind of propaganda ad nauseum." This >shows that BhK thinks that the persons who want the Indian >government to recognize Tamil as a classical language are >saying that because they have a Tamil background. (Even though, > he uses the word "India", it is obvious he means the Tamil >linguistic state of India.) Otherwise why would he comment on > the ethnic origin of the persons proposing >the recognition instead of arguing out the proposition on its >own merits or lack thereof? > >Any way, who said Tamil is the only Dravidian language? If others >want to present information from texts in other languages, that >will be a welcome contribution to the list. Instead of doing positive > things like that, why unfairly criticize some for posting >information which many list members find valuable? > >> No body has made any remarks about A.K.Ramanujam. Hence all this is >> out of place. > >BhK wrote, "The pathetic appeal of one list member to place Tamil >on the same footing as the Classical languages-- Sanskrit, Persian >and Arabic in India-- sounds ridiculous." In a reply to BhK's post, >Maureen Fadem quoted A. K. Ramanujan as saying, " "Tamil is one of > the two classical languages of India, is the only language of >contemporary India which is recognizably continuous with a classical >past." When both statements are evaluated together, it >becomes obvious that according to BhK, AKR's statement also >sounds ridiculous. That is why I gave AKR's own explanation as > to why he considers Tamil to be a classical language. If Sarma >does not see the relevance of the discussion of >the views of AKR and Lienhard, I will not be surprised. After >all he is the one who, in another thread, equates the transmission > of mahAbhASya tradition among the ancient grammarians/scholars > with "mass scale cultural diffusion". > >> >So certainly, one does not need Bh. Krishnamurti's >> >recommendation for recognition of Tamil as a classical >> >language on par with Arabic and >> >Greek. Reputed scholars have done that already. > >> This shows your irrational hatred towards him rather than any >>thing else. > >Certainly not. Anybody can see that I have defended my positions >rationally. > >> >Whatever be the positive and negative aspects of N. Ganesan's >> >postings, they have certainly done some good in this case. They >> > have serendipitously helped to expose the virulent anti-Tamil >> >feelings of Bh. Krishnamurti. > >> Again please substantiate your remarks. > >I had come to know about BhK's accomplishments through his >publications. It is shocking for me to find that a >historical/comparative linguist who ought to >know his "science of etymology" cannot rationally explain the >meaning of the word 'classical', but keeps insisting that Tamil > cannot be called classical while Greek and Arabic can be. This > as well as his comments involving the ethnic origin of N. Ganesan > mean that his position is motivated by anti-Tamil >feelings rather than any defensible reason. > >> When the list officially recognises classical tamil why was >> this demand made on the Indology list? There is no necessity of >> the demand. What was the motive in raising the bogey of tamil being >> threatned? Who has threatned it? Were your postings censored? >> Did anybody prevent you for expressing your view? But if you expect >> others to simply accept whatever you post, that of course is >> impossible. > >N. Ganesan wanted the Indian government and not the Indology list > to recognize Tamil as a classical language. If there had been any >question about the justification for such a demand or how it >relates to Indology, one can always seek clarification as another >member did. On my part, I have never suggested >that people accept whatever is being posted. > >> > If BhK does not like this, he can always pick up his marbles >> > and go elsewhere. But, it is pathetic to appeal to listen to his >> >views based on his old age. Age is irrelevant in intellectual >> >discussions. If age were to be a criterion, one should pay more >> >respect to a piece of rock. However, one should note that its age >> >may be two billion years, but it does not have any knowledge or >> >wisdom. > >> You have unwarrantedly used very uncivil language against >> a wellknown linguist and it is you who have to consider packing up >> and going else where if you do not like this list. > >People in glass houses should not throw stones at others. Of course, > in Sarma's sense of equity, BhK can state people should not have >left India and gone abroad (in other words, if they are abroad >presently, they should leave their present country of residence and >go home to India), if they do not conform to his expectations of >how and what should be posted on the list. But, >others cannot say that he should get off the list if he cannot >tolerate what is found in the scope of the Indology list. Sarma >conveniently forgot one thing. I did not post anything contradicting > what is in the scope of the list. >If BhK and Sarma want to dish out unwarranted comments, they should > be able to take whatever warranted comments coming their way too. > >That, of course, willbe asking them to be logical. > >Chris > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Mon Jan 18 16:54:41 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 21:54:41 +0500 Subject: Classical vs. Modern In-Reply-To: <19990118030903.14905.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045364.23782.16684847038072508319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:09 PM 1/17/99 PST, you wrote: >In a message dated 1/16/99 11:11:00 AM Central Standard Time, >narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > >> He has already very patiently explained his view why tamil >> cannot be called classical . This is because it is current and >> evloving and therefore changing. You may not agree with his view. >> That does not give you liberty to use disrespectful language. > >Sarma is certainly not enhancing the reputation of Bh. Krishnamurti >by his interpretation and defense of BhK's views on what a classical >language is. If Sarma's reason for not considering Tamil to be a >classical language is true, then in Greek and Arabic which BhK and >he accept as classical languages, all language change has ceased. I do not think that either me or any body for that matter can either enhance or decrease anybody's reputation. As far as classical Arabic and classical greek is concernedis concerned BHK has already explained his thinking. I am just quoting it again. "Classical Greek and Modern Greek are different languages. Only the Classical Greek is a Classical language, just like Classical Arabic. Such distinction is not maintenable in the case of Tamil. For all written and formal spoken purposes (for modern communication and in media) it is the literary Tamil that is used because of diglossia. Arabic also has diglossia but when we refer to Arabic in the Indian context, we mean only the Classical Arabic." Obviously either you have not read it carefully or you do not accept his reasoning. Ascribing motives to some thing you do not agree with is very normal human weakness. >> Please will you kindly quote the postings of Prof.Bh.Krishnamurti >> which made you feel that he will do any such thing. As far as I >> know he has not made any remarks against tamil. As a matter of >> fact he in his postings, he has clearly stated that tamil >> preserves quite a bit >> old dravidian usages. Please see the archives of Indology. But >> of course if any body claims that tamil is the only dravidian >> language that is a lie. > >BhK said, "Those who have such love should have stayed back in >India instead of going for greener pastures in a foreign country >and then start doing this kind of propaganda ad nauseum." This >shows that BhK thinks that the persons who want the Indian >government to recognize Tamil as a classical language are >saying that because they have a Tamil background. (Even though, > he uses the word "India", it is obvious he means the Tamil >linguistic state of India.) Otherwise why would he comment on > the ethnic origin of the persons proposing >the recognition instead of arguing out the proposition on its >own merits or lack thereof? I never knew postings in Indology list are read by government of India. > >Any way, who said Tamil is the only Dravidian language? If others >want to present information from texts in other languages, that >will be a welcome contribution to the list. Instead of doing positive > things like that, why unfairly criticize some for posting >information which many list members find valuable? > >> No body has made any remarks about A.K.Ramanujam. Hence all this is >> out of place. > >BhK wrote, "The pathetic appeal of one list member to place Tamil >on the same footing as the Classical languages-- Sanskrit, Persian >and Arabic in India-- sounds ridiculous." In a reply to BhK's post, >Maureen Fadem quoted A. K. Ramanujan as saying, " "Tamil is one of > the two classical languages of India, is the only language of >contemporary India which is recognizably continuous with a classical >past." When both statements are evaluated together, it >becomes obvious that according to BhK, AKR's statement also >sounds ridiculous. That is why I gave AKR's own explanation as > to why he considers Tamil to be a classical language. If Sarma >does not see the relevance of the discussion of >the views of AKR and Lienhard, I will not be surprised. You have written quite a lot assuming what BHK would have said in your original posting, when nothing of that sort was said. In addition to this now you are still harping on the same topic without any reason or rhyme. After >all he is the one who, in another thread, equates the transmission > of mahAbhASya tradition among the ancient grammarians/scholars > with "mass scale cultural diffusion". > You have written quite a lot assuming what BHK would have said in your original posting, when nothing of that sort was said. In addition to this now you are still harping on the same topic without any reason or rhyme. >> >So certainly, one does not need Bh. Krishnamurti's >> >recommendation for recognition of Tamil as a classical >> >language on par with Arabic and >> >Greek. Reputed scholars have done that already. > >> This shows your irrational hatred towards him rather than any >>thing else. > >Certainly not. Anybody can see that I have defended my positions >rationally. > >> >Whatever be the positive and negative aspects of N. Ganesan's >> >postings, they have certainly done some good in this case. They >> > have serendipitously helped to expose the virulent anti-Tamil >> >feelings of Bh. Krishnamurti. > >> Again please substantiate your remarks. > >I had come to know about BhK's accomplishments through his >publications. It is shocking for me to find that a >historical/comparative linguist who ought to >know his "science of etymology" cannot rationally explain the >meaning of the word 'classical', but keeps insisting that Tamil > cannot be called classical while Greek and Arabic can be. This > as well as his comments involving the ethnic origin of N. Ganesan > mean that his position is motivated by anti-Tamil >feelings rather than any defensible reason. > >> When the list officially recognises classical tamil why was >> this demand made on the Indology list? There is no necessity of >> the demand. What was the motive in raising the bogey of tamil being >> threatned? Who has threatned it? Were your postings censored? >> Did anybody prevent you for expressing your view? But if you expect >> others to simply accept whatever you post, that of course is >> impossible. > >N. Ganesan wanted the Indian government and not the Indology list > to recognize Tamil as a classical language. If there had been any >question about the justification for such a demand or how it >relates to Indology, one can always seek clarification as another >member did. On my part, I have never suggested >that people accept whatever is being posted. > >> > If BhK does not like this, he can always pick up his marbles >> > and go elsewhere. But, it is pathetic to appeal to listen to his >> >views based on his old age. Age is irrelevant in intellectual >> >discussions. If age were to be a criterion, one should pay more >> >respect to a piece of rock. However, one should note that its age >> >may be two billion years, but it does not have any knowledge or >> >wisdom. > >> You have unwarrantedly used very uncivil language against >> a wellknown linguist and it is you who have to consider packing up >> and going else where if you do not like this list. > >People in glass houses should not throw stones at others. Of course, > in Sarma's sense of equity, BhK can state people should not have >left India and gone abroad (in other words, if they are abroad >presently, they should leave their present country of residence and >go home to India), if they do not conform to his expectations of >how and what should be posted on the list. But, >others cannot say that he should get off the list if he cannot >tolerate what is found in the scope of the Indology list. Sarma >conveniently forgot one thing. I did not post anything contradicting > what is in the scope of the list. >If BhK and Sarma want to dish out unwarranted comments, they should > be able to take whatever warranted comments coming their way too. > >That, of course, willbe asking them to be logical. > >Chris > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Mon Jan 18 19:10:48 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 00:10:48 +0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227045368.23782.11060326960317037095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> TILINGA or TRILINGA >?From the kUrma vibhAga prakaraNa of mArkaNDEyapurANa tiliGgA kuJjari darI kaccha vAsAzca yE janAH | tAmraparNI tathA kukSir iti kUrmasya dakSiNaH || Pargiter who prepared the critical edition of this purANa said that the word tiliGga stands for telugu. (Bibliothaka-Indica.P.367) From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Mon Jan 18 19:17:55 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 00:17:55 +0500 Subject: Classical vs. Modern In-Reply-To: <19990118124658.12240.rocketmail@web308.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227045370.23782.14624093347384203218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Retorts are a reaction to torts. It is very unfair of you to condone torts and codemn retorts. But I guess it is all in the game. regrds, sarma. At 04:46 AM 1/18/99 -0800, you wrote: >Dear Chris, > >Most of the postings by D. V. N. Sarma, if they are replies/retorts >to anything Tamil, can be answered the way you have done. > >Best regards, >Swaminathan Madhuresan > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Mon Jan 18 19:21:59 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 00:21:59 +0500 Subject: Classical vs. Modern Message-ID: <161227045372.23782.12239951279038201769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My meesage at 9.15 pm IST was by mistake. I beg your pardon for the error. The message at 9.54 IST is the correct one. regards, sarma. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 19 14:10:34 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 06:10:34 -0800 Subject: Concept of Mukti and Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227045387.23782.10114800883699716236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm entering this discussion rather late. Prof. Arjunwadkar raises important points. The question boils down to, "how is a jIvanmukta supposed to behave?". One answer, provided by Sankara himself, may be found in his bRhadAraNyaka bhAshya 1. 4. 7, where he says, "samyag-jnAna-prAptAv apy avaSyam bhAvinI pravRttir vAN-manaH-kAyAnAm ..... tasmAt tyAga-vairAgyAdi sAdhanabalAvalambena Atma-vijnAna-tat-smRti-saMtatir niyantavyA bhavati" Perhaps, Sankara saw himself in the above light, with some residual pravRtti in him. As for the traditional hagiographies, the mAdhavIya recognizes that even writing commentaries involves pravRtti. There is a story in it, regarding Hastamalaka, who rarely descended from his state of "Being," so that Sankara did not want to ask him to write sub-commentaries on his own works. So, he is said to have asked Suresvara and Padmapada to do this work. As for the question about a stock-broker being qualified for mukti, yes and no. Theoretically, every being is qualified for mukti, and from a higher perspective, every being is in reality already liberated. Alternately, there is no mukti and there are no mumukshus, as gauDapAda puts it. Practically speaking, one could look at the ranking that each man gives to the purushArthas in his life. Clearly, the Advaitin would rank dharma above artha and kAma, although he would rank moksha above dharma also. Regards, Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Tue Jan 19 11:45:40 1999 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 06:45:40 -0500 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045383.23782.8743260125190216375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos wrote: > I believe that hardly anybody in the predominantly Christian West has > raised a hue and cry about thousands and millions of people becoming > Buddhists, Baha'is, Hindus, etc. etc. -- and this is how it should be. May be this is because you are in India and don't listen to the likes of Pat Robertson. And how would you describe the organizations committed to `deprogramming' (itself a loaded word: what is conversion and what is programming) those who join `cults' (what is a cult and what is a religion?) Having spent half my life in India and half in US, the claim that people in one place are inherently better than people elsewhere rings hollow to me. -Nath From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 19 15:24:25 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 07:24:25 -0800 Subject: Classical vs. Modern Message-ID: <161227045393.23782.5189804160765412392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, For a look at Tamil Nadu Government's proposal to Govt. of India to classify Tamil as a Classical language, please see The Hindu, India's national newspaper, 17-Jan-99. http://www.webpage.com/hindu/daily/990117/04/04172236.htm It is titled: Tamil as classical language: CM's call. This project is by Dr. V. C. Kulandaisamy and Dr. G. John Samuel. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 19 16:23:52 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 08:23:52 -0800 Subject: Classical vs. Modern Message-ID: <161227045398.23782.9652071508601528743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let us hear from K. Zvelebil describing the Classic nature of Tamil back in 1973 (The Smile of Murugan, Leiden: E. J. Brill), p.50). "First of all, the so-called Sangam Tamil poetry is regarded by the Tamils themselves, by the professional historiographers and critics, as well as by intellectual readers, as classical in the same sense in which we regard some parts of our national literatures as classical. Second, it has been a finite, "frozen" corpus, a body of texts which had not been expanded since it ceased to be part of a live oral tradition. Since those times, it has become a part of the classical heritage as it were. Third, it is the expression of a linguistic, prosodic and stylistic perfection; it is a finished, consummate and inimitable literary expression of an entire culture, and of the best in that culture; in this sense, it is truly a classical product, a classical literature." - K. Zvelebil Best regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Jan 19 15:05:33 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 10:05:33 -0500 Subject: Asiatica Ass.: JSAWS 4-1 -Reply Message-ID: <161227045391.23782.6211551967114599881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleague, I have not yet received your book on lexicography. If it went by sea mail that is no surprise or cause for concern. Sincerely, Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Asian Division LJ150 101 Independence Ave., SE Washington, DC 20540-4810 USA tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The usual disclaimers apply. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jan 19 16:59:11 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 11:59:11 -0500 Subject: Release: El.Journal of Vedic Studies 4.2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045400.23782.16056248401140598904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We are pleased to announce the recent publication, late in December, of another issue of the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies. Vol. 4, issue 2 (December 1998) contains the paper of B. N. Narahari Achar (University of Memphis, Memphis TN 38152) On the meaning of AV XIX. 53.3: Measurement of Time? see: www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs M. Witzel , ed. =========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jan 19 16:59:46 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 11:59:46 -0500 Subject: HOS 55: Nepalese Shaman Oral Texts released In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045403.23782.11229764069619462961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am pleased to announce the recent relase, on Dec. 24, 1998, of volume 55 of the HARVARD ORIENTAL SERIES (edited by Michael Witzel since 1993) NEPALESE SHAMAN ORAL TEXTS Gregory G. Maskarinec Cambridge, Mass. and London, England 1998 ISBN 0-674-60795-3 pp. xii, (Nepalese text) N 1-391, (Engl. transl.) 1-391; pp. 392-695 (commentary, indexes) = total pp. xii, 1085. price: $ 90 ======================= DESCRIPTION OF CONTENTS Nepalese Shaman Oral Texts is a bilingual (Nepali and English) critical edition of three complete, representative repertoires of shaman texts collected over the past twenty years in Jajarkot District, Western Nepal. Throughout that area, shamans continue to fulfill important therapeutic roles, diagnosing problems, treating afflictions, and restoring order and balance to the lives of their clients and their communities. Each of these efforts incorporates extensive, meticulously memorized oral texts, materials that not only clarify symptoms and causes but also detail the proper ways to conduct rituals. These texts preserve the knowledge necessary to act as a shaman, and confirm a social world that demands continued intervention by shamans. This volume, the first of its kind, includes both publicly chanted recitals and privately whispered spells of the area's three leading shamans, annotated with extensive notes. Containing over 250 texts totally nearly 11,000 lines of material, this work endeavors to provide a comprehensive documentation of a non-Western healing system through the material that sustains and preserves that tradition, demonstrating that shaman texts remain thoroughly meaningful. ----------------------------- For information write to Editor, Harvard Oriental Series, Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA 617-495 3295; email: witzel at fas.harvard.edu and cf.: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm sub: HOS. The book can be ordered directly from Harvard Univ. Press.; see: http://128.103.251.49/default.html or email to : cal at hup.harvard.edu ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Jan 19 07:35:30 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 12:35:30 +0500 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045381.23782.7276642646672105288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:18 18.01.99 +0100, Artur Karp wrote: >"Conversion" it seems may mean different things in different contexts. Indeed. E.g., the Roman Catholic view is that conversion is "man's free turning to God" and "has always to be seen as a response, made possible by God's grace, to a call from God." (K. Rahner, "Conversion", in _Sacramentum mundi_ vol. 2). It is a matter between God and the individual, a fundamental decision for which the individual bears responsibility (in the same article, Rahner accepts the possibility of conversion to non-Christian religions on the same principle). But much of the Indian press turns it into a plot to destroy Indian culture, or something weird like that. >In the case of Buddhism - to what extent was it necessary for the people >who wished to embrace Buddhism as lay followers (upasakas/upasikas) to >leave their Hinduism? > >In the case of Islam/Christianity - were the conversions of Indian tribals >and untouchables conversions from Hinduism? This is an important point. The repeated accusations of conversions being 'false' and 'forced' and 'fraudulent' which keep appearing in the Indian press have something utterly false and hypocritical about them, because in India conversion to Hinduism has been taking place throughout history. At 12:14 16.01.99 +0100, Anand Nayak wrote: >conversions from one religion to the other. Why does Hinduism does not seek to >preach its dharma to the others? It is an evidence that the Hindus - except for >the Hare-Krishnas- are all only from the Indian races; Are you convinced of this? Should we not consider, e.g., the Hindus on Bali in Indonesia, who are physically practically indistinguishable from other Indonesians? >the Buddhists on the other hand have gone out of India and inculturateded >many races and cultures of the world. Apparently there is no ?lan missionnaire >in Hinduism. But there is! Vaishnava missionary activity in NE India is a clear example of this: e.g., the Ahoms were converted to Hinduism. There is at least one folk drama from Manipur depicting how Vaishnava missionaries in that region set out to destroy local traditions and beliefs (a filmed version by Kanhaiya Lal was shown at the Central Institute of Indian Languages here in Mysore, early in 1985). The absorbtion of migrants from central Asia into Hinduism in Rajasthan is another such case. The Virasaivas are active proselytisers. >And on what doctrinal grounds can a Hindu oppose to conversions to >Christianity? In view of Hindu practice (see above) I am inclined to believe that there are none. But 'Hinduism' being a very varied collection of beliefs and practices, there may be some doctrinal argument somewhere, which evidently does not hold good for the whole of 'Hinduism'. Partha Banerjee wrote: >Upon this background, question is, if people decide to convert to other >religions, what moral ground does anyone have to re-convert them? Is the issue of 're-conversion' not bogus? Since a, for instance, Muslim or Christian or tribal (who has never been a follower of any of the 'great traditions') individual has no memory of ever having been a Hindu, there cannot be any question of 're-conversion'. The insistence on 're-conversion' is also an expression of strong intolerance towards individual freedom. If any non-Hindu individual whose ancestors at some time were (or were not) some sort of Hindus wishes to join a Hindu religious community, then that decision should be left to that individual. But for any group to insist upon 're-conversion' of others seems to fly in the face of basic human rights. The entire anti-conversion issue looks like something anti-individual, anti-democratic, anti-human, generated by political interests and not justified by any binding doctrine or any generally established practice. I believe that hardly anybody in the predominantly Christian West has raised a hue and cry about thousands and millions of people becoming Buddhists, Baha'is, Hindus, etc. etc. -- and this is how it should be. Another interesting sociological issue would be the attitude of non-proselytising vis-?-vis proselytising Hindu communities (Virasaivas, Arya Samaj, Ramakrishna Mission, ISKCON). Since these latter groups accept individual converts from virtually anywhere, also from ethnic groups with no history of 'Hinduism' in them, there cannot be any question of 're-conversion' there either. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From oguibeni at MONZA.U-STRASBG.FR Tue Jan 19 12:55:22 1999 From: oguibeni at MONZA.U-STRASBG.FR (Oguibenine) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 13:55:22 +0100 Subject: Asiatica Ass.: JSAWS 4-1 In-Reply-To: <36A31A0A.411835A9@shore.net> Message-ID: <161227045385.23782.5349548644642206162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleague: In December 1998 I sent you the volume Lexicography in the Indian and Buddhist Cultural Field, Munich, 1998. I wonder whether it reached you meantime. Regards and best wishes, Boris Oguibenine From ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Tue Jan 19 16:10:31 1999 From: ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (Wolf J. Flywheel) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 16:10:31 +0000 Subject: need help Message-ID: <161227045389.23782.921315485112247862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> need a scan (or txt-file)of " Tribal Language Pedagogy: A Case for the Santali Guru", in : Indian Linguistics, Vol.47:1, 1986, pp.17-23. does anyone hold a copy of it? please send direct to my account. Jan Seifert many thanks in advance ----------------------------------------- end of transmission From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 19 23:18:32 1999 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 17:18:32 -0600 Subject: need info.... Message-ID: <161227045407.23782.12782242549858123601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here's a request for info... Please respond directly to Dr.Kak ================================================================= yamAtArAjabhAnasalagAm The word is a mnemonic and it gives all the combinations of guru and laghu syllables. Let laghu be 0 and guru be 1, then we get 0111010001 and in combinations of 3 you are able to count all triplets. It is supposed to have been used in the medieval (or perhaps ancient) times to remember all triple meters. Would you know a textual reference to this mnemonic? And could you pass this note on to someone who would? I would be willing to exchange reliable information with a copy of my new book. -Subhash Kak kak at ee.lsu.edu www.ee.lsu.edu/kak ================================================================== From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 20 01:58:10 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 17:58:10 -0800 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti story Message-ID: <161227045416.23782.1562644893761385827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ramakrishnan, What do you mean by DK in the following? Swaminathan Madhuresan ---Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote: > > Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > > I would very much like to know the following details regarding the > > dakSiNAmurti story in which ziva teaches four disciples/sages under the banyan > > tree. > > > > 1.The Sanskrit text that mentions this story for the first time and the date > > of the text > > > > 2. The subject that ziva taught these four disciples/sages > > > > 3. The names of these four disciples/sages > > > > 4. The earliest iconographic representation of this story > > A very late, but hopefully not totally useless reply. Apart from the > information given by Dr. Ganesan, the following sources may be useful. > > It is not been researched very well when the name daxiNAmUrti (DM) first > occurs (if it is at all possible) in Sanskrit texts. The earliest seems > to be in the shaiva Agama-s. > > For iconographic representations of DM, refer to Elements of Hindu > Iconography, by T.A.Gopinatha Rao, Vol 2, part 1 and Vol 2, part 2. He > has given Sanskrit quotes from the utatarakAmikAgama, vishhNudharmottara > purANa (which is mentioned by Al-Beruni), a.nshumadbhedAgama, etc. There > are also various photographs of different forms of DK. As Dr Ganesan > mentioned, all these are from South India and I think it's a good > hypothesis that shiva as DK originated in Tamil Nadu. > > However, the idea of shiva as teacher seems to be much older. But, not > in the form of DK. See "Siva as Promulgator of Traditional Learning and > Patron Deity of the Fine Arts", J. Bruce Long, ABORI, Vol 52, pp. 67-80. > He gives quotes from the mahAbhArata and also points out that the idea > can be found in the R^ig veda itself. Also the shvetAshvatara Upanishhad > (usually dated 4-5th century BC) and a shaiva upanishhad, comes close to > making the identification of shiva with the teacher. > > Dr Ganesan mentioned the DK stotra ascribed to sha.nkara, but the > ascription has been doubted. See for eg, Encyclopedia of Indian > philosoiphies, Karl Potter, Vol III, pp. 317-318. However, Gussner has > tried to show by stylometric analysis that it is indeed a genuine > composition, "A Stylometric Study of the Authorship of Seventeen > Sanskrit Hymns Attributed to Sa.nkara", JAOS, pp. 259-267, 1976. > Whatever be the case, the hymn is 2-3 centuries later than the Tamil > Hymns of the shaivite saints. > > The tantric text, prapa.ncasAra tantra attributed also to sha.nkara has > a chapter on DK. See chapter 28 in that text, Prapa.casAra tantra, Ed A. > Avalon. This attribution is also doubtful. Padoux in his book "vAc", > classifies this as a non-sectarian tantra and hypothesizes that it is > the work of Vidyasha.nkara tIrtha, the head of the Sringeri Mutt in the > 1200s. However, as pointed out by Avalon, there are earlier references > to this text. > > Thanks to Dr Ganesan for the references from the Tamil texts. I was > planning to post a question on that myself! > > Rama > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 20 02:13:01 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 18:13:01 -0800 Subject: SomaskandamUrti Message-ID: <161227045420.23782.2528686619113788761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The back panel sculpture in Pallava shrines and Chola bronzes of Somaskanda are famous. Have not seen any Somaskanda anywhere else other than Tamil Nadu. nam kaDambanaip peRRavaL panginan - Tevaram. What are the textual and sculptural evidence. Any references or occurences in India? Please help. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Jan 20 00:21:18 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 19:21:18 -0500 Subject: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: <199901190735.MAA20707@mbg.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045409.23782.9040428838304732914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do observe RZ's various postings to have anti-Indian stance. I do not wish to protect India or Indian, but to call anyone hypocrite is neither scholarly or truthful. Indian press reports what it perceives as journalism. They don't have to conform to a different standard imposed on them. The reason I write this note is to remind us that it's not our goal (I think) to impose our views on people. That's is the job of the people's leaders and they know what to do. People in a democracy carry a voice and power. Scholars study history, culture, rituals, politics, but they aren't politicians. Dogmas are left for the preachers, evangelists, orators, who have taken upon themselves the act of preaching. To impose one's belief on another is called conversion. All adult human beings have some belief of their mortality, sins, goodness and character. Religious preachers try to change it. Sometimes it's changed by political machine. There is no known Hindu preacher across the borders of India until Swami Vivekananda started his ministry in NY in 1893. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada followed with a different tradition in 1969. While various discourses and rituals are arranged in India, there is no hindu initiation ceremony. The ceremony of upanayana is a ritualistic discipline to prepare for youthhood and community than to make a hindu. There may be new rituals where people are "reconverted" to visit temples etc. I am not familiar with those. I was never initiated to be a hindu, but claim to be one and none has disputed yet. Bijoy Misra On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > At 12:18 18.01.99 +0100, Artur Karp wrote: > > >"Conversion" it seems may mean different things in different contexts. > > Indeed. E.g., the Roman Catholic view is that conversion is "man's free turning to God" and "has always to be seen as a response, made possible by God's grace, to a call from God." (K. Rahner, "Conversion", in _Sacramentum mundi_ vol. 2). It is a matter between God and the individual, a fundamental decision for which the individual bears responsibility (in the same article, Rahner accepts the possibility of conversion to non-Christian religions on the same principle). But much of the Indian press turns it into a plot to destroy Indian culture, or something weird like that. > > >In the case of Buddhism - to what extent was it necessary for the people > >who wished to embrace Buddhism as lay followers (upasakas/upasikas) to > >leave their Hinduism? > > > >In the case of Islam/Christianity - were the conversions of Indian tribals > >and untouchables conversions from Hinduism? > > This is an important point. The repeated accusations of conversions being 'false' and 'forced' and 'fraudulent' which keep appearing in the Indian press have something utterly false and hypocritical about them, because in India conversion to Hinduism has been taking place throughout history. > > At 12:14 16.01.99 +0100, Anand Nayak wrote: > > >conversions from one religion to the other. Why does Hinduism does not seek to >preach its dharma to the others? It is an evidence that the Hindus - except for >the Hare-Krishnas- are all only from the Indian races; > > Are you convinced of this? Should we not consider, e.g., the Hindus on Bali in Indonesia, who are physically practically indistinguishable from other Indonesians? > > >the Buddhists on the other hand have gone out of India and inculturateded >many races and cultures of the world. Apparently there is no ?lan missionnaire >in Hinduism. > > But there is! Vaishnava missionary activity in NE India is a clear example of this: e.g., the Ahoms were converted to Hinduism. There is at least one folk drama from Manipur depicting how Vaishnava missionaries in that region set out to destroy local traditions and beliefs (a filmed version by Kanhaiya Lal was shown at the Central Institute of Indian Languages here in Mysore, early in 1985). The absorbtion of migrants from central Asia into Hinduism in Rajasthan is another such case. The Virasaivas are active proselytisers. > > >And on what doctrinal grounds can a Hindu oppose to conversions to >Christianity? > > In view of Hindu practice (see above) I am inclined to believe that there are none. But 'Hinduism' being a very varied collection of beliefs and practices, there may be some doctrinal argument somewhere, which evidently does not hold good for the whole of 'Hinduism'. > > Partha Banerjee wrote: > >Upon this background, question is, if people decide to convert to other > >religions, what moral ground does anyone have to re-convert them? > > Is the issue of 're-conversion' not bogus? Since a, for instance, Muslim or Christian or tribal (who has never been a follower of any of the 'great traditions') individual has no memory of ever having been a Hindu, there cannot be any question of 're-conversion'. The insistence on 're-conversion' is also an expression of strong intolerance towards individual freedom. If any non-Hindu individual whose ancestors at some time were (or were not) some sort of Hindus wishes to join a Hindu religious community, then that decision should be left to that individual. But for any group to insist upon 're-conversion' of others seems to fly in the face of basic human rights. > > The entire anti-conversion issue looks like something anti-individual, anti-democratic, anti-human, generated by political interests and not justified by any binding doctrine or any generally established practice. I believe that hardly anybody in the predominantly Christian West has raised a hue and cry about thousands and millions of people becoming Buddhists, Baha'is, Hindus, etc. etc. -- and this is how it should be. > > Another interesting sociological issue would be the attitude of non-proselytising vis-?-vis proselytising Hindu communities (Virasaivas, Arya Samaj, Ramakrishna Mission, ISKCON). Since these latter groups accept individual converts from virtually anywhere, also from ethnic groups with no history of 'Hinduism' in them, there cannot be any question of 're-conversion' there either. > > Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Mysore (India) > e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com > From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Wed Jan 20 01:38:52 1999 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 19:38:52 -0600 Subject: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045414.23782.847403058703340036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Very well put. Not only do I agree 100%, but I admire and envy the degree of maturity that Mr. Misra has exhibited in his post. The anti-Indians (and there are some Indians amongst them) on this list are puzzling to me. I fail to understand why they would devote so much of their (and other peoples) time discussing, sermonizing and handing out harangues on a system and a culture that they obviously have such little respect for. You won't find me discussing/dissing American marriages, for instance. :-) ~sumedh On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Bijoy Misra wrote: > I do observe RZ's various postings to have anti-Indian > stance. I do not wish to protect India or Indian, > but to call anyone hypocrite is neither scholarly > or truthful. Indian press reports what it > perceives as journalism. They don't have to conform > to a different standard imposed on them. > > The reason I write this note is to remind us that > it's not our goal (I think) to impose our views on people. > That's is the job of the people's leaders and they > know what to do. People in a democracy carry a > voice and power. > > Scholars study history, culture, rituals, politics, > but they aren't politicians. Dogmas are left for > the preachers, evangelists, orators, who have taken > upon themselves the act of preaching. > > To impose one's belief on another is called conversion. > All adult human beings have some belief of their > mortality, sins, goodness and character. Religious > preachers try to change it. Sometimes it's changed > by political machine. > > There is no known Hindu preacher across the borders of India > until Swami Vivekananda started his ministry in NY in 1893. > Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada followed with a different tradition > in 1969. > > While various discourses and rituals are arranged in India, > there is no hindu initiation ceremony. The ceremony of > upanayana is a ritualistic discipline to prepare for > youthhood and community than to make a hindu. There > may be new rituals where people are "reconverted" to > visit temples etc. I am not familiar with those. > I was never initiated to be a hindu, but claim > to be one and none has disputed yet. > > Bijoy Misra > > > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > > At 12:18 18.01.99 +0100, Artur Karp wrote: > > > > >"Conversion" it seems may mean different things in different contexts. > > > > Indeed. E.g., the Roman Catholic view is that conversion is "man's free turning to God" and "has always to be seen as a response, made possible by God's grace, to a call from God." (K. Rahner, "Conversion", in _Sacramentum mundi_ vol. 2). It is a matt er between God and the individual, a fundamental decision for which the individual bears responsibility (in the same article, Rahner accepts the possibility of conversion to non-Christian religions on the same principle). But much of the Indian press turn s it into a plot to destroy Indian culture, or something weird like that. > > > > >In the case of Buddhism - to what extent was it necessary for the people > > >who wished to embrace Buddhism as lay followers (upasakas/upasikas) to > > >leave their Hinduism? > > > > > >In the case of Islam/Christianity - were the conversions of Indian tribals > > >and untouchables conversions from Hinduism? > > > > This is an important point. The repeated accusations of conversions being 'false' and 'forced' and 'fraudulent' which keep appearing in the Indian press have something utterly false and hypocritical about them, because in India conversion to Hinduism has been taking place throughout history. > > > > At 12:14 16.01.99 +0100, Anand Nayak wrote: > > > > >conversions from one religion to the other. Why does Hinduism does not seek to >preach its dharma to the others? It is an evidence that the Hindus - except for >the Hare-Krishnas- are all only from the Indian races; > > > > Are you convinced of this? Should we not consider, e.g., the Hindus on Bali in Indonesia, who are physically practically indistinguishable from other Indonesians? > > > > >the Buddhists on the other hand have gone out of India and inculturateded >many races and cultures of the world. Apparently there is no ?lan missionnaire >in Hinduism. > > > > But there is! Vaishnava missionary activity in NE India is a clear example of this: e.g., the Ahoms were converted to Hinduism. There is at least one folk drama from Manipur depicting how Vaishnava missionaries in that region set out to destroy local traditions and beliefs (a filmed version by Kanhaiya Lal was shown at the Central Institute of Indian Languages here in Mysore, early in 1985). The absorbtion of migrants from central Asia into Hinduism in Rajasthan is another such case. The Virasaivas ar e active proselytisers. > > > > >And on what doctrinal grounds can a Hindu oppose to conversions to >Christianity? > > > > In view of Hindu practice (see above) I am inclined to believe that there are none. But 'Hinduism' being a very varied collection of beliefs and practices, there may be some doctrinal argument somewhere, which evidently does not hold good for the whol e of 'Hinduism'. > > > > Partha Banerjee wrote: > > >Upon this background, question is, if people decide to convert to other > > >religions, what moral ground does anyone have to re-convert them? > > > > Is the issue of 're-conversion' not bogus? Since a, for instance, Muslim or Christian or tribal (who has never been a follower of any of the 'great traditions') individual has no memory of ever having been a Hindu, there cannot be any question of 're- conversion'. The insistence on 're-conversion' is also an expression of strong intolerance towards individual freedom. If any non-Hindu individual whose ancestors at some time were (or were not) some sort of Hindus wishes to join a Hindu religious communi ty, then that decision should be left to that individual. But for any group to insist upon 're-conversion' of others seems to fly in the face of basic human rights. > > > > The entire anti-conversion issue looks like something anti-individual, anti-democratic, anti-human, generated by political interests and not justified by any binding doctrine or any generally established practice. I believe that hardly anybody in the predominantly Christian West has raised a hue and cry about thousands and millions of people becoming Buddhists, Baha'is, Hindus, etc. etc. -- and this is how it should be. > > > > Another interesting sociological issue would be the attitude of non-proselytising vis-?-vis proselytising Hindu communities (Virasaivas, Arya Samaj, Ramakrishna Mission, ISKCON). Since these latter groups accept individual converts from virtually anyw here, also from ethnic groups with no history of 'Hinduism' in them, there cannot be any question of 're-conversion' there either. > > > > Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > > Mysore (India) > > e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com > > > From ramakris at EROLS.COM Wed Jan 20 00:39:24 1999 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 19:39:24 -0500 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti story Message-ID: <161227045412.23782.622473260104714899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > I would very much like to know the following details regarding the > dakSiNAmurti story in which ziva teaches four disciples/sages under the banyan > tree. > > 1.The Sanskrit text that mentions this story for the first time and the date > of the text > > 2. The subject that ziva taught these four disciples/sages > > 3. The names of these four disciples/sages > > 4. The earliest iconographic representation of this story A very late, but hopefully not totally useless reply. Apart from the information given by Dr. Ganesan, the following sources may be useful. It is not been researched very well when the name daxiNAmUrti (DM) first occurs (if it is at all possible) in Sanskrit texts. The earliest seems to be in the shaiva Agama-s. For iconographic representations of DM, refer to Elements of Hindu Iconography, by T.A.Gopinatha Rao, Vol 2, part 1 and Vol 2, part 2. He has given Sanskrit quotes from the utatarakAmikAgama, vishhNudharmottara purANa (which is mentioned by Al-Beruni), a.nshumadbhedAgama, etc. There are also various photographs of different forms of DK. As Dr Ganesan mentioned, all these are from South India and I think it's a good hypothesis that shiva as DK originated in Tamil Nadu. However, the idea of shiva as teacher seems to be much older. But, not in the form of DK. See "Siva as Promulgator of Traditional Learning and Patron Deity of the Fine Arts", J. Bruce Long, ABORI, Vol 52, pp. 67-80. He gives quotes from the mahAbhArata and also points out that the idea can be found in the R^ig veda itself. Also the shvetAshvatara Upanishhad (usually dated 4-5th century BC) and a shaiva upanishhad, comes close to making the identification of shiva with the teacher. Dr Ganesan mentioned the DK stotra ascribed to sha.nkara, but the ascription has been doubted. See for eg, Encyclopedia of Indian philosoiphies, Karl Potter, Vol III, pp. 317-318. However, Gussner has tried to show by stylometric analysis that it is indeed a genuine composition, "A Stylometric Study of the Authorship of Seventeen Sanskrit Hymns Attributed to Sa.nkara", JAOS, pp. 259-267, 1976. Whatever be the case, the hymn is 2-3 centuries later than the Tamil Hymns of the shaivite saints. The tantric text, prapa.ncasAra tantra attributed also to sha.nkara has a chapter on DK. See chapter 28 in that text, Prapa.casAra tantra, Ed A. Avalon. This attribution is also doubtful. Padoux in his book "vAc", classifies this as a non-sectarian tantra and hypothesizes that it is the work of Vidyasha.nkara tIrtha, the head of the Sringeri Mutt in the 1200s. However, as pointed out by Avalon, there are earlier references to this text. Thanks to Dr Ganesan for the references from the Tamil texts. I was planning to post a question on that myself! Rama From ramakris at EROLS.COM Wed Jan 20 02:02:50 1999 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 21:02:50 -0500 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045418.23782.14737722225318283012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos wrote: <<> > At 12:18 18.01.99 +0100, Artur Karp wrote: > > >"Conversion" it seems may mean different things in different contexts. > > Indeed. E.g., the Roman Catholic view is that conversion is "man's free turning to God" and "has always to be seen as a response, made possible by God's grace, to a call from God." (K. Rahner, "Conversion", in _Sacramentum mundi_ vol. 2). It is a matter between God and the individual, a fundamental decision for which the individual bears responsibility (in the same article, Rahner accepts the possibility of conversion to non-Christian religions on the same principle). But much of the Indian press turns it into a plot to destroy Indian culture, or something weird like that. >> Well, quoting some 20th century version (or whatever) of Roman Catholocism doesn't serve much purpose. Believe it or not, even Indians do remember some historical happenings, especially within 300-400 years. How about the Portugese who came and demolished the Kapalishvara temple in Madras about 400 years back? Of course, the docile Tamils moved lock, stock and barrel to the current place. Or what about St Francis who speaks about the great joy he derived from demolishing Hindu temples? Or what even of the burning of anti-church personalities in medieval Europe? Or what of the Roman Catholic priests who abused the hospitality of the docile Buddhist priests in Sri Lanka and conducted virulent propoganda against them? I guess these are not destroying culture? Some politically correct version of Catholocism does not serve much purpose in understanding the psyche of people, does it? After all, we are not shaped just by present events, but by the past also. For the record, I am not a Hindutvavadi or whatever, demanding demolishing churches and mosques. I am fully in support of letting bygones be bygones. But, quoting some author conveniently forgetting past happenings (especially concerning the wrong doings of one's own culture) doesn't help Hindu-Christian dialog much. And is it any surprise that the press is reactionary? Certainly not. Rama From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Tue Jan 19 16:05:23 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 21:05:23 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990119001048.00851920@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045395.23782.717355615319982467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:10 AM 1/19/99 +0500, I wrote: >TILINGA or TRILINGA > >>From the kUrma vibhAga prakaraNa of mArkaNDEyapurANa > > tiliGgA kuJjari darI kaccha vAsAzca yE janAH | > tAmraparNI tathA kukSir iti kUrmasya dakSiNaH || > >Pargiter who prepared the critical edition of this purANa >said that the word tiliGga stands for telugu. >(Bibliothaka-Indica.P.367) The word tiliGga occurs in vAyupurANa also indicating a janapada. ardhpAzca tiliGgAzca magadhAzca vRkaissaha | madhyadezA janapadAH prAyazO.amI prakIrtitAh || According to the scholar-poet Arudra the word "teliGgaM" is the name of sub-tribe of the tribe Gonds. The word triliGga appears to be sanskritisation of that word tiliGga. teliGga, tilliGga, tailiGga are also the variations of this word. yair dEzais tribhir ESa yAti mahatIM khyAtiM triliGgAkhyayA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ yESAM kakati rAjakIrti vibhavaiH kailAsazailAH kRtAH | tE dEvAH prsarat prasAdamadhurAz zrIzaila kALEzvara drAkSArAma nivAsinaH pratidinam tacchrEyasE jAgratu || -pratAparudrayazObhuSaNa of vidyAnAtha. Thus in addition to Andhra, TriliGga or tiliGga is the name of telugu country. Tamilians called them "vaDugar" and telugu country is called "vDuga vazhi". The "vaDa nUl" studied by the pAnDyan chief "ten2n2am tamizavEL" have a (atleast a remote) chance of being telugu books. This is because sanskrit already has been mentioned and I do not think prakrit was on the decline by the 10th century A.D. So far an effort has been made to associate the words dhAnyakaTaka, trikUTa, wi th the telugu country. regards, sarma. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Jan 19 20:15:12 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 21:15:12 +0100 Subject: SV: Hindu elan missionnaire Message-ID: <161227045405.23782.6875023667134940903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May I remind the members of the list that Hinduism spread to Cambodia and Indonesia? Bali is still a Hindu - or Hindu influenced - society. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Jan 20 02:56:04 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 21:56:04 -0500 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045422.23782.8844804774569834905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think having read quite a few posts on this topic, I am compelled to re-introduce my month-old "wisdom" back to the list, quite to the detriment of some. Robert Zydenbos, in his last post on this topic, said that Hare Krishnas convert people in the US. Is there any statistic suggesting that they have targeted the African Americans or the Hispanics just like the Christian missionaries have targeted the tribals in India, also quite like the Islamic missionaries have targeted the Black community here ? Just questions. <<<< RZ : The entire anti-conversion issue looks like something anti-individual, anti-democratic, anti-human, generated by political interests and not justified by any binding doctrine or any generally established practice. I believe that hardly anybody in the predominantly Christian West has raised a hue and cry about thousands and millions of people becoming Buddhists, Baha'is, Hindus, etc. etc. -- and this is how it should be. >>>>> This statement can only be made by one who is in total denial of the raw facts as they exist in India. You must have at least read the missive of the Sarvodaya leaders (Gandhians at that) who have written to PM Vajpayee on the activities of the missionaries in Dangs. I'd like to know the basis of such a statement(as above) if I may. Below, I have attached an article I read and I think it is relevant to the topic at hand. Ashish -------------------------------------------------begin extract----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- Title: Nailing a lie floated by missionaries Author: Virendra Parekh Publication: The Observer Date: January 9, 1999 Fr Cedric Prakash was quite emphatic. "Tribals are not Hindus. They are animists", he insisted in a press interview in relation to the recent clashes in the Dangs district of Gujarat. As coordinator of United Christian Forum for Human Rights, he puts our from Ahmedabad the Christian side of the recent clashes in Dangs. Deep down in Dangs forests, Sister Carmen Borges, principal of Deep Darshan High School at Ahwa repeated the lie: tribals are not Hindus. The implication was, of course, that the Hindus need not get exercised over conversion of tribals to Christianity. Like so many other false notions floated by missionaries to undermine Hinduism and to consolidate British rule, this one too is lapped up by the English-educated elite. However, like many other such notions, it does not bear a moment's scrutiny. The culture cleavage between forest society and urban Hindu culture disappears on closer analysis. Belgian scholar Armand Neven set out to study the mutual influencing of tribal and Hindu cultures, but gave up the project altogether when he found that no fundamental distinction could be made between the two, that they were essentially the same. Tribals in Valsad, for instance, invoke Indra at Holi. The husband of Holika is called Meshro, from Meshrooha, a Vedic name of the Fire god. Indian classical music is nothing more than a more developed stage of tribals music. Computer analysis of the ragas left no doubt that the rhythmic schemes etc were developed from the more simple forms stills in use in tribal music. A number of Vishnu's incarnations like Matsya (fish), Koorma (tortoise), Varaha (boar) and Nrisimha (man-lion) have been incorporated from tribal religion. Lord Ganesha is undoubtedly an animist contribution to Hindu pantheon. Tribals in Dangs worship tiger, cobra and mountains. Tiger is revered by all Hindus as vehicle of Durga, cobra is worshipped on Nagpanchmi and mountains like Himalayas and Shetrunjay are held in high esteem as abodes of gods. In their manifesto, Truth Shall Prevail: Reply to the Niyogi Committee, missionaries argue that tribals are not Hindus because they believe in a creator, eat beef, do not worship the phallus (lingam), practise ancestor worship, and believe in an eternal soul but not in reincarnation. On these criteria, even Vedic Aryans were not Hindus. The Rig Veda has several references to Prajapati, the Creator. Whether the Vedic Aryans were beef eaters is hotly debated. Dr P V Kane, a great scholar on Dharmashastras wrote: "It was not that the cow was not sacred in Vedic times, it was because of her sacredness that it is ordained in Vajasneyi Samhita that beef should be eaten." Later, however, beef eating fell into disrepute and cow became Aghnya (not to be killed). Aryans also did not worship the lingam as the disapproving term Shishnadevah suggests. Vedic ancestor worship survives to this day in the form of Shraaddha. Vedic Aryans had no notion of rein-carnation and believed that after death the soul goes to heaven. So, by standards of missionary scholarship on which father Prakash relies, Vedic Aryans were not Hindus; nor were Harappans whose civilisations the Aryan 'invaders' destroyed. And now we are told that tribals are not Hindus. In short, Hinduism does not exist. How nice! At grassroot level, census enumerators in the British period found it impossible to differentiate between Hindus and tribal animists. Arun Shourie in his book Missionaries in India has documented extensively and meticulously the problems they faced. One census report after another noted that the task was proving extremely difficult. For one thing, tribals did not know the name of their own religion. Worse, the dividing line between Hinduism and animism was uncertain. The 1901 Census noted, "Hinduism does not, like Christianity and Islam, demand of its votaries the rejection of all other religious beliefs and... among many lower castes the real working religion derives its inspiration, not from the Vedas, but from non-Aryan beliefs of the aborigines". The 1911 Census noted the mm difficulty and admitted that enumeration depended on the idiosyncrasies of enumerators and vagaries of respondents, both of which varied and changed over time and place. These led to wide fluctuations and differences in the case of same people and places, rendering the data unreliable. In 1921 Census report, Colonel Luard said that the classification 'animist' had never been satisfactory and had better been dropped because "it is never possible to know where the animist begins and the Hindu ends and there are ample instances of animistic survivals even in Christian creeds and practices." The 1931 Census report for Bihar and Orissa hit the nail on the head: "The conception of a religion in contradistinction to another religion, where each has its own quite definite creed and peculiar observances is something foreign to the minds of vast bulk of India's population. When, therefore, the census tables tell us that there are so many Hindus, Muslims or Christians in the province, they refer not so much to the personal beliefs, convictions or outlook of these people as to the particular communal or sectional labels to which they subscribe." And yet the distinction was retained bemuse it served a very useful purpose both for the British Government and the missionaries. It kept out of the Hindu society the tribals whom the 1931 Census Report had described as the "most fruitful field for Christian missionaries". No wonder Fr Prakash clings to it so tenaciously. The missionaries' attempt to distinguish tribal 'religion' from Hindu 'religion' should not make us forget that 'both' the 'religions' are pagan, evil and doomed in the Christian view. Under a Christian theocracy, the tribal practice of propitiating rites for ghosts and spirits would have cost them death at stake for witchcraft. On the other hand, their so-called animism shares an important common element with Hinduism. Even the most primitive animism has characteristics like non-exclusiveness, non-dependence on a specific revelation, potential universality and its rootedness in the common experience of reality. This is what Hinduism and this is what closed creeds like Christianity and Islam reject decisively. Time was when missionaries ran down an other religions as handiwork of Devil and frightened their followers with eternal hen fire. As the Belgian Indologist Koenraad Elst points out, the current strategy is a variation of 'Divide and Rule'. The prospective convert is told that not his religion, but that of his neighbours is utterly objectionable, and so he should break with them completely to lead a life of purity. The target group is isolated from its cultural surroundings by Inventing a deep difference between the two, then pulled closer to Christianity and finally absorbed. The means have changed, but the goal is the same: Collecting souls for 'the only true faith.' Christian insistence on a Hindu-tribal opposition is born from this soul greed rather than an observation of reality. The other point that Hindus need not get exercised over conversion of tribals to Christianity can be dismissed in passing. One has only to look at the northeast to realise what unabated conversions could lead to. What the missions spread among tribals is riot just another name of God and another form of worship, but altogether different ideas about themselves and their relationship with other countrymen. Having seen the long term consequences of their 'selfless service', Hindus have reason to be apprehensive when missionaries focus on a particular area. Sister Carmen said she would applaud Hindu organisations if they served the tribals with genuine social service. All Hindus would have been applauding the missionaries if they had confined themselves only to genuine social service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------end extract----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Wed Jan 20 03:25:03 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 22:25:03 -0500 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045424.23782.9679977815683489654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> R. Balasubramaniam wrote: [...]. For the record, I am not a Hindutvavadi or whatever, demanding demolishing churches and mosques. ____________________ Just a query. Why does everyone think that Hindutvavaadis are people with horns waiting for the next opportunity to go and tear down a mosque or a Church ? When did anyone demand the demolition of any such structure ? As far as I recall, even regarding the Babri structure, the demand was to move it 2 miles away, as had been done even in Pakistan. But all suggestions were a no-go. Regards Ashish From partha at CAPITAL.NET Wed Jan 20 03:38:21 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 22:38:21 -0500 Subject: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045426.23782.12739087747647565553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy Misra writes: ...>Indian press reports what it >perceives as journalism. But that does not mean it is necessarily good journalism. In fact, in many instances, it's pretty bad. Lousy to be precise. > >The reason I write this note is to remind us that >it's not our goal (I think) to impose our views on people. ... >Scholars study history, culture, rituals, politics, >but they aren't politicians. Dogmas are left for >the preachers, evangelists, orators, who have taken >upon themselves the act of preaching. To believe that "scholars" cannot be political is dogmatic too. There have been many scholars who kept involved in political theorization and activism. I see no problems with that. We also need to define what is politics and what is not. Like I said before, to play apolitical often is a ploy to keep critics and criticism out of the way. So, playing/preaching "apolitical" often is purposefully political. > >To impose one's belief on another is called conversion. >All adult human beings have some belief of their >mortality, sins, goodness and character. Religious >preachers try to change it. Sometimes it's changed >by political machine. Yes, I agree. That's exactly what is happening in India and abroad in the name of Hindutva. Imposition, appropriation, and extermination is the name of the game. > >There is no known Hindu preacher across the borders of India >until Swami Vivekananda started his ministry in NY in 1893. >Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada followed with a different tradition >in 1969. Then are we saying that ancient Hindu and Buddhist kings and statespersons never preached beyond the borders of India? Or, are we implying whatever regions were under their preaching mission are/were all nothing but parts of Hindu India or Bharatvarsha? Just my two cents. -Partha p.s. -- In my opinion, one "scholar" publicly calling another names (communist or anti-Indian or whatever) is not quite scholarly. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 20 14:30:08 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 06:30:08 -0800 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045431.23782.2162216024736093616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Indeed. E.g., the Roman Catholic view is that conversion is "man's free turning to God" and "has always to be seen as a response, made possible by God's grace, to a call from God." (K. Rahner, "Conversion", in _Sacramentum mundi_ vol. 2). >>> I have to disagree with this definition. This is a Christian elitist/clergy definition. Rahner must be well aware that on the ground level, any conversion is "made possible by" money and (caste) politics. In the Northeast India, conversion of the so-called tribals, closer ethnically to Burmese, is done on the ground from Kerala missionaries. Talking to many Keralites, this is just a job for which they are paid. That's all. Sorry, some may not be happy: I mention Tamil Nadu here because that is where European missionaries started their conversion efforts from 16th century. Robert De Nobili started mimicking Hindu priests and Adheenakartars. G. U. Pope was called Pope Ayyar. De Nobili had a puuNuul/yajnopavIta made of gold. He wore it above his upper garment. The upper garment was made of saffron silk. He wore candana tilak and expensive makarakuNDalams in his ears. He travelled around the Madurai country in palanquin much like Saiva mutt heads of the day. (All this from a Tamil book. Is this correct?) The conversion among Tamil Hindus were viewed as a means to raise their social and economic status. Even now, Hindu Nadars and Christian Nadars marry among each other. European missionaries in Southern districts converted fisherfolk, untouchable castes like PaLLar and PaRaiyar, Nadars, Saiva Pillais and had tough time when they demanded separate graveyards for every caste mirroring their corresponding position in Hindu hierarchy. In Trivandram and Kanyakumari district, castes converted to Christianity when their women were denied the right by upper castes to cover their breasts. There are books in Malayalam, Tamil and English on "breast-cloth controversy". In Tamil Nadu and Jaffna, read the 'Saivism champion, Arumuka Navalar's opposition to the conversion: Richard F. Young, Es. Jepanecan The Bible trembled: the Hindu-Christian controversies of nineteenth-century Ceylon, Vienna: Sammlung De Nobili, 1995 Works of Dennis Hudson and others are relevant also. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Wed Jan 20 17:06:50 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 07:06:50 -1000 Subject: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: <01BE43FA.8FF16700.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227045442.23782.7453303612477151682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Ashish Chandra wrote: > Why does everyone think that Hindutvavaadis are people with > horns waiting for the next opportunity to go and tear down > a mosque or a Church ? Because they do it. Raja. PS: They also dig up cricket pitches. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 20 15:15:04 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 07:15:04 -0800 Subject: 'Siva Nandi Message-ID: <161227045433.23782.4042881787045872398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not find Ananda tANDava naTarAja, Dakshinamurthy, Somaskanda, Lingodbhava outside of Tamil Nadu. Info on the above 4 image typology in India is appreciated. Other Shiva iconographic forms have to be looked into. Interested in "Siva forms specific to Tamil South or any other particular state. Nandi, the sacred bull is ubiquitous in the South. Hoysala Nandis are particularly beautiful. M. A. Dhaky has a nice paper in Artibus Asiae on TN and Karnataka Nandis. Nandis are not common in front of the Shivalingams in the North. C. Sivaramamurti, the doyen of art historians, has writen that a human male with a bull's head found in Barabudur and other sites shows South Indian influence. This form is AdhikAra Nandi in Tamil Nadu. There are many Chola bronzes taken out in temple processions with a human male's body anf a bull's head. Given that cows are never represented in Indus seals while side view of bulls, so called unicorn seals are many: this may be very important in deciphering IVC religious code. Also, there are IVC seals with a composite image of a human male having a bull's head (like 1) Borobudur and 2) AdhikAra Nandi bronzes of Tamil nadu.) Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Jan 20 13:08:35 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 08:08:35 -0500 Subject: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045429.23782.637291849774745105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Partha Banerjee wrote: > > >Scholars study history, culture, rituals, politics, > >but they aren't politicians. Dogmas are left for > >the preachers, evangelists, orators, who have taken > >upon themselves the act of preaching. > > To believe that "scholars" cannot be political is dogmatic too. There have > been many scholars who kept involved in political theorization and > activism. I see no problems with that. We also need to define what is > politics and what is not. > I thought you would react. You do have political tone and various postings show bias. > never preached beyond the borders of India? Or, are we implying whatever > regions were under their preaching mission are/were all nothing but parts > of Hindu India or Bharatvarsha? > > > Just my two cents. > > -Partha > > > p.s. -- In my opinion, one "scholar" publicly calling another names > (communist or anti-Indian or whatever) is not quite scholarly. > Your activism is appreciated.. - BM From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 20 16:39:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 08:39:19 -0800 Subject: 'Siva Nandi Message-ID: <161227045438.23782.18003698061724006060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Cohen, Saw Nolamba images in Kramrisch before. What about Somaskanda in Nolambavadi? Do you know any Lingodbhava, Dakshinamurty, Ananda TaaNDava NaTaraja or Somaskanda images further North? Also, interested in other 'Siva mUrthams specific to the Tamil cultural sphere. Apart from the above 4 ??? Many Thanks, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------------ Ganesa, I have seen Lingodbhavas and Daksinamurtis in Nolambavadi (outside of Tamilnadu) during Nolamba period (mostly 10th c). Lots of Natesas too, though not exactly in the manner popular during the Cola period. Andrew Cohen ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 20 16:55:14 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 08:55:14 -0800 Subject: 'Siva Nandi Message-ID: <161227045439.23782.6003523397671809008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Also: the bull baiting festival is very special in Tamil culture. It happens on the Pongal/makara sankrAnti day. Called as jalli kaTTu or manji viraTTu. There are two classic novels with the flavour of the native soil (Madurai district) Kottamangalam Cuppu's manjiviraTTu and C. S. Chellappa's vaaTi vaacal. Kalittokai, an ancient Tamil sangam text, describes the bull baiting festival (cf. K. Zvelebil's paper). Sanskrit texts describing Krishna's bull baiting games were written in the Tamil South much later (Prof. Erik af Edholm's Nila/Nappinnai paper). >?From Kalittokai -> Alvaar Paasurams --> Sanskrit Srivaishnava literature. Vanamala Parthasarathy has written a long and excellent article on Bull baiting in Tamil and Sanskrit in the latest issue of Jl. Inst. Asian studies, Chennai. Charles Fabri in 1930s has written a paper on bull baiting in Crete and Indus culture. It is important to note that in Sangam Tamil, the word "toRu" means a bull, the head ox (poli kALai) ... In Romance countries, "taurus" means bull. "taurachomy" means bull baiting, ... What is the connection between Tamil "toRu", Indus bull baiting, and "taurus"??? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 20 18:24:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 10:24:07 -0800 Subject: 'Siva Nandi Message-ID: <161227045445.23782.10034053293939882239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I assume you have seen Sivaramamurti's _Nataraja in Art_ Andrew Cohen >>> Well, Sivaramamurti gave me a copy when it was printed. This is just an extension of Ca. TaNTapANi Tecikar's AaTavallaan, Dharmapuram Adheenam. There is absolutely no Ananda TaaNDava NaTarAjas, often priced possessions in European and US museums, anywhere else except Tamil Nadu. I know of Natesas in India with slightly bent legs, but they are NOT NaTarAja. Interesting info is: T. N. Ramachandran ((Buddhist bronzes from Nagapattinam and teacher of Nagasamy (given name: PanchanadIsvaran))) and C. Sivaramamurti married sisters. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From AndrewC at MAIL.UCA.EDU Wed Jan 20 16:33:54 1999 From: AndrewC at MAIL.UCA.EDU (Andrew Cohen) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 10:33:54 -0600 Subject: 'Siva Nandi In-Reply-To: <19990120151504.5061.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045436.23782.899399452239147031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganesa, I have seen Lingodbhavas and Daksinamurtis in Nolambavadi (outside of Tamilnadu) during Nolamba period (mostly 10th c). Lots of Natesas too, though not exactly in the manner popular during the Cola period. Andrew Cohen From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jan 20 10:43:09 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 10:43:09 +0000 Subject: [Admin:] Closing thread: "The conversion issue" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045457.23782.18382628809830418767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is not a suitable topic for the INDOLOGY list, and I ask all participants to move their discussion off-list. Thank you. Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jan 20 10:46:22 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 10:46:22 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN] length of messages Message-ID: <161227045459.23782.16393545138431168382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please keep your messages to INDOLOGY short. The recommended limit is 2k, yes, about 2000 characters, or roughly a screenful of text. This means 1/ expressing yourself concisely 2/ NOT including previous messages in toto. 3/ NOT setting your email client to attach "rich" versions of your email (html, etc.). Plain text only, please. If INDOLOGY is to thrive, it is essential that we all practice a certain restraint in our postings both in content and volume. Thank you, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From AndrewC at MAIL.UCA.EDU Wed Jan 20 17:03:46 1999 From: AndrewC at MAIL.UCA.EDU (Andrew Cohen) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 11:03:46 -0600 Subject: 'Siva Nandi In-Reply-To: <19990120163919.15725.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045441.23782.18387323190716624645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ganesan, There is a Somaskanda bronze (probably Nolamba pd) from Bhoganandisvara temple, Nandi (near Bangalore). Also Dharmapuri (TN) Mallikarjuna complex I have seen Somaskanda reliefs. Please see my book for images, esp of various Natesas. At the moment I can't think of more northern images, but that could only be my faulty memory, not indication that they don't exist. I assume you have seen Sivaramamurti's _Nataraja in Art_ Andrew Cohen From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 20 19:08:42 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 11:08:42 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <19990115015320.21197.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045446.23782.3512197346147319132.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Ganesan wrote: > But nowhere they tell that Krishna told Giitaa or Vaarttai > to Arjuna in Naalaayiram. That is significant given > the importance of Gita in Sanskrit tradition. While it is true that the three words "Arjuna", "Krishna", and "spoke" do not occur together anywhere in the Divya Prabandham, I cannot think of any reason why the Alvars would mention Krishna's standing in front of Arjuna's chariot other than to celebrate the Gita. Regarding the Tiruvallikkeni (Triplicane) Parthasarathy temple: Arjuna is not represented in the sannidhi; the mUla-bEra, known as Venkatakrishna, is present there with his entire family. Rukmini, Balarama, Satyaki (considered Krishna's younger brother), Pradyumna, and Aniruddha are all present. But this main image clearly represents Krishna in his role as Arjuna's charioteer; Krishna is _not_ shown with all his weapons, nor even with four hands, highly unusual for an image of Vishnu. In Tiruvallikkeni, he only has his conch, the absence of other weapons reflecting his promise not to fight while driving the chariot. [ For an image of this deity, see http://www.best.com/~mani/img/sarathymoolavar.jpg ] In addition, on the vimAna (the gOpura above the garbha gRha), there is a very clear sculpture of the Gitopadesa. Given that this is the vimAna gOpura, it is apparently of great antiquity. Mani From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 20 19:13:01 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 11:13:01 -0800 Subject: Consciousness in visishtadvaita In-Reply-To: <22205197808799@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045448.23782.10196464310995698102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > With respect, this still looks to me like forcing the author's hand. We know > Ramanuja says that consciousness is a defining attribute of the self; but > can we be sure that that is *all* he wanted to say -- so sure that we add > explanatory footnotes to those remarks which seem to say something else, > lest the reader be tempted to take the author literally? > > I have just reached the paragraph in the Sribhashya (1.1.1) which begins > 'caitanyasvabhAvatA hi svayaMprakAzatA'. Ramanuja here makes the exact point > I was looking for (so thanks again to John for pointing the way), using the > simile of the flame and its lustre to illustrate the self and its > consciousness: "Like a single *substance* (dravya) of light exists as lustre > and as possessing lustre" (yathaikam eva tejodravyaM > prabhA-prabhAvad-rUpeNAvatiSThate). It certainly looks to me as though > Ramanuja is saying more than van Buitenen gives him credit for (in this > particular instance). Dear Martin: I checked with a friend who is relatively well read in SrIbhAshya. You are correct, and I am mistaken; in Visishtadvaita, the very svarUpa, the "stuff", of the jIva is "caitanya" or consciousness. This "svarUpa-bhUta-jnAna" is what reveals to itself the "I" of the individual and is _not_ a guNa. Of course dharma-bhUta-jnAna by definition is a guNa, inseparable from the jIva but capable of contraction or expansion. So, van Buitenen may very well be misreading Ramanuja here. Mani From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jan 20 11:18:23 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 11:18:23 +0000 Subject: Ingalls Jr and smalltalk Message-ID: <161227045462.23782.15081433323326536590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The justification for posting this to INDOLOGY is very thin: Dan Ingalls Jr worked with Sr years ago on a project to write a program in the Smalltalk language which would read Devanagari. The easiest place to find a reprint of the article about this is in the Brill volume of Mahabharata studies edited by Arvind Sharma, ca. 1992. Anyhow, I happened to notice in the current issue of Dr Dobbs Journal (#295, Jan 1999, p.102) that Dan Ingalls Jr is mentioned as still active in developing Smalltalk at the Walt Disney Imagineering company, of all places. There is a new free version called Squeak, and I wonder whether it would be possible to get Ingalls' Devnagari OCR program running under this? Does anyone have the original source-code for the Devanagari reader? All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Wed Jan 20 22:26:07 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 12:26:07 -1000 Subject: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045453.23782.5526139296710864282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Sumedh Mungee wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Narayan S. Raja wrote: > > > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Ashish Chandra wrote: > > > > > Why does everyone think that Hindutvavaadis are people with > > > horns waiting for the next opportunity to go and tear down > > > a mosque or a Church ? > > > > > > Because they do it. > In other words, Hindutvavaadis are all those people who tear down > mosques and Churches and cricket pitches. People are judged by the company they keep. As a fine American proverb says: "Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas". Regards, Raja. From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Wed Jan 20 20:35:53 1999 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 14:35:53 -0600 Subject: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045452.23782.6624452459147735652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Narayan S. Raja wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Ashish Chandra wrote: > > > Why does everyone think that Hindutvavaadis are people with > > horns waiting for the next opportunity to go and tear down > > a mosque or a Church ? > > > Because they do it. > > > Raja. > > PS: They also dig up cricket pitches. In other words, Hindutvavaadis are all those people who tear down mosques and Churches and cricket pitches. Just when I thought Mr. Banerjee couldn't be outdone. :-) ~sumedh From sns at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 20 22:50:06 1999 From: sns at IX.NETCOM.COM (SNS) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 16:50:06 -0600 Subject: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: <01BE43FA.8FF16700.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227045464.23782.4073684409927281269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is funny to see people of Indian origin on this list who have to defend themselves and vehemently deny that they are not this or that, whenever they do not agree with "objective scholars". It is probably because, all the analysis has been in one direction for the past few hundred years. The quote given at the bottom applies to India and Indology as well. Subrahmanya. =========================================================================== Quote by Said from http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/Bahri/Orientalism.html "One would find this kind of procedure less objectionable as political propaganda--which is what it is, of course--were it not accompanied by sermons on the objectivity, the fairness, the impartiality of a real historian, the implication always being that Muslims and Arabs cannot be objective but that Orientalists. . .writing about Muslims are, by definition, by training, by the mere fact of their Westernness. This is the culmination of Orientalism as a dogma that not only degrades its subject matter but also blinds its practitioners." From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Wed Jan 20 23:00:43 1999 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 17:00:43 -0600 Subject: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045466.23782.4779282716446494031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Narayan S. Raja wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Sumedh Mungee wrote: > > > On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Narayan S. Raja wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Ashish Chandra wrote: > > > > > > > Why does everyone think that Hindutvavaadis are people with > > > > horns waiting for the next opportunity to go and tear down > > > > a mosque or a Church ? > > > > > > > > > Because they do it. > > > In other words, Hindutvavaadis are all those people who tear down > > mosques and Churches and cricket pitches. > > > People are judged by the company they keep. In other words, you have appointed yourself a judge of who keeps what company, and hence how they should be judged. This gets more and more fascinating, but be that as it may, but I think this is not a place for you to act Judge and spread hatred/misinformation on any group of people, least of all Hindus. > As a fine American proverb says: > "Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas". Here's another one: Those who live in glass houses should not change their clothes with the light on. ~sumedh From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jan 20 17:47:36 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 17:47:36 +0000 Subject: Figures and quotas In-Reply-To: <19990118125750.21328.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045460.23782.16546599892111203400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Christopher Fernandez wrote: > Now that the list founder-owner has declined his time to moderate, > may be either Jean-Luc or Paul Pearsons is ready to spare their > good amount of time to moderate the list ?? I'm afraid it is not their choice. As the founder of this list I collaborate closely with the actual list owners in Liverpool, who run the computer side of things, and any decision about editorial policy is ours. But anyone may start a rival moderated list elsewhere, naturally. There are already lists specifically for vyakarana and other topics, for example. All the best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jan 20 17:53:12 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 17:53:12 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN] Thread closed: Re: The conversion issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045455.23782.11789824318017328837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This discussion thread is now closed. Thank you, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From mgansten at SBBS.SE Wed Jan 20 19:42:06 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 20:42:06 +0100 Subject: Consciousness in visishtadvaita Message-ID: <161227045450.23782.14420933526730905565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mani, >I checked with a friend who is relatively well read in >SrIbhAshya. Thank you; that is very encouraging. I have the greatest respect for van Buitenen's knowledge of Ramanuja's works -- this is the first time I have felt compelled to differ from him -- but I did feel that his views on this matter were somewhat one-sided. I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone in this. All the best, Martin Gansten From rbunker at FRANKLIN.LISCO.COM Thu Jan 21 05:47:59 1999 From: rbunker at FRANKLIN.LISCO.COM (Ralph Bunker) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 21:47:59 -0800 Subject: Ingalls Jr and smalltalk Message-ID: <161227045475.23782.18242622612169934608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, I have Ingalls' source code in SmallTalk. I have not tried to execute it. If no one else has already sent it to you let me know and I will send it as an attachment. I am currently working on a OCR program and will let you know when it begins to do something interesting. --ralph From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Jan 21 03:06:59 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 22:06:59 -0500 Subject: The New Namboodiris Message-ID: <161227045470.23782.3340887193922021899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members I thought this might be interesting. http://www.india-today.com/itoday/25011999/kerala.html Regards Ashish From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Thu Jan 21 03:12:04 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 22:12:04 -0500 Subject: 'Siva Nandi Message-ID: <161227045472.23782.12961014883972678484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As regards the pose, does this have any connection with the pictures of Shiva and Kali one finds wherein Kali exclaims in disbelief (open-mouthed) after she has realized that she has just stepped over her husband Shiva ? Thanks Ashish -----Original Message----- From: DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA [SMTP:narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN] [...] But it is the Urdhva tAnDava mUrti I think, that is very specific to tamilnad. The story of this dance is supposed to have occurred near "tillai". Lord ziva used this pose to defeat kALi (pArvati). pArvati not wiiling to repeat this immodest pose brazenly conceded defeat. Thus siva won by fraud. I wonder if ziva would have won the contest if it took place now. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Jan 21 03:23:46 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 08:23:46 +0500 Subject: 'Siva Nandi In-Reply-To: <19990120163919.15725.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045468.23782.17633492043942586743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are natarAja murtis of 9th, 12th and 17th centuries in zrIzailam temple. Make I do not know. But it is the Urdhva tAnDava mUrti I think, that is very specific to tamilnad. The story of this dance is supposed to have occurred near "tillai". Lord ziva used this pose to defeat kALi (pArvati). pArvati not wiiling to repeat this immodest pose brazenly conceded defeat. Thus siva won by fraud. I wonder if ziva would have won the contest if it took place now. regards, sarma. At 08:39 AM 1/20/99 PST, you wrote: >Dear Dr. Cohen, > >Saw Nolamba images in Kramrisch before. What about Somaskanda in >Nolambavadi? > >Do you know any Lingodbhava, Dakshinamurty, Ananda TaaNDava >NaTaraja or Somaskanda images further North? > >Also, interested in other 'Siva mUrthams specific to the >Tamil cultural sphere. Apart from the above 4 ??? > >Many Thanks, >N. Ganesan > >------------------------------------------ >Ganesa, > >I have seen Lingodbhavas and Daksinamurtis in Nolambavadi >(outside of Tamilnadu) during Nolamba period (mostly 10th c). Lots >of Natesas too, though not exactly in the manner popular during the >Cola period. > >Andrew Cohen > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 21 16:52:15 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 08:52:15 -0800 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti story Message-ID: <161227045501.23782.2088586906503639061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ramakrishnan, Thanks a bunch. Forgot the 1972 paper by J. Bruce Long. Since I am on travel, can you please check for me from the article: 1) whether Dakshinamurthy form is mentioned in J. Bruce Long's paper? 2) Lord 'Siva teaching under a banyan tree - does it occur anywhere? 3) 'Siva teaching grammar. Appreciations to you for this help. CilappatikAram (ca. 400 AD) is the first Indian text mentioning Dakshinamurthy. 'saiva aagamas mentioning Dakshinamurthy (Sivacharyars of Tamil Nadu are the preservers of 'Saivagama tradition, many were created by them) are later than CilappatikAram. Qcil23x90 \BT cIrttaku ciRappin2 vArttikan2 putalvan2 \et Qcil23x91 \BT Al amar celvan2 peyar koNTu vaLarntOn2 \et Qcil23x92 \BT pAl nARu cev vAyp paTiyOr mun2n2ar \et Qcil23x93 \BT taLar nA Ayin2um maRaiviLi vazAatu \et Qcil23x94 \BT uLam mali uvakaiyOTu oppa Ota \et Qcil23x95 \BT takkiNan2 tan2n2ai mikkOn2 viyantu \et Note the word takkiNan2 = DakSiNAmUrti. Did you read my posts with the title: 'Siva Nandi. I would like comments, additional info, ... Any more 'Siva iconographical forms other than the four mentioned (Ananda tANDava naTarAja, Lingodbhava, Somaskanda, DakSiNAmUrti), please let me know. With kind regards, N. Ganesan <<< A very late, but hopefully not totally useless reply. Apart from the information given by Dr. Ganesan, the following sources may be useful. It is not been researched very well when the name daxiNAmUrti (DM) first occurs (if it is at all possible) in Sanskrit texts. The earliest seems to be in the shaiva Agama-s. For iconographic representations of DM, refer to Elements of Hindu Iconography, by T.A.Gopinatha Rao, Vol 2, part 1 and Vol 2, part 2. He has given Sanskrit quotes from the utatarakAmikAgama, vishhNudharmottara purANa (which is mentioned by Al-Beruni), a.nshumadbhedAgama, etc. There are also various photographs of different forms of DK. As Dr Ganesan mentioned, all these are from South India and I think it's a good hypothesis that shiva as DK originated in Tamil Nadu. However, the idea of shiva as teacher seems to be much older. But, not in the form of DK. See "Siva as Promulgator of Traditional Learning and Patron Deity of the Fine Arts", J. Bruce Long, ABORI, Vol 52, pp. 67-80. He gives quotes from the mahAbhArata and also points out that the idea can be found in the R^ig veda itself. Also the shvetAshvatara Upanishhad (usually dated 4-5th century BC) and a shaiva upanishhad, comes close to making the identification of shiva with the teacher. Dr Ganesan mentioned the DK stotra ascribed to sha.nkara, but the ascription has been doubted. See for eg, Encyclopedia of Indian philosoiphies, Karl Potter, Vol III, pp. 317-318. However, Gussner has tried to show by stylometric analysis that it is indeed a genuine composition, "A Stylometric Study of the Authorship of Seventeen Sanskrit Hymns Attributed to Sa.nkara", JAOS, pp. 259-267, 1976. Whatever be the case, the hymn is 2-3 centuries later than the Tamil Hymns of the shaivite saints. The tantric text, prapa.ncasAra tantra attributed also to sha.nkara has a chapter on DK. See chapter 28 in that text, Prapa.casAra tantra, Ed A. Avalon. This attribution is also doubtful. Padoux in his book "vAc", classifies this as a non-sectarian tantra and hypothesizes that it is the work of Vidyasha.nkara tIrtha, the head of the Sringeri Mutt in the 1200s. However, as pointed out by Avalon, there are earlier references to this text. Thanks to Dr Ganesan for the references from the Tamil texts. I was planning to post a question on that myself! >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 21 16:55:28 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 08:55:28 -0800 Subject: 'Siva Nandi Message-ID: <161227045503.23782.15632924540201829661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >As regards the pose, does this have any connection with >the pictures of Shiva and Kali one finds wherein Kali exclaims >in disbelief (open-mouthed) after she has realized that she has >just stepped over her husband Shiva ? May be, this has to do with tantric saivism in Bengal. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 21 18:07:27 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 10:07:27 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045505.23782.5238372906288419387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks, Mani for checking the Parthasarathy mUlavigraha, vimAna and Naalaayiram. In Alvar Paasurams, a study can be made to count various puraaNa motifs. The ratio of Krishna teaching Arjuna compared to (say) Prahlada story will be zero. In one or two places out of a total 4000 poems, Krishna as Arjuna's charioteer occurs in Naalaayira divya prabandham which you have provided from Tiruvallikkeni pAsurams. It is SIGNIFICANT that Arjuna is NOT present in the garbha grha of Parthasarathy temple whereas Krishna is present with his entire family much like Head of a Hindu joint family. What a difference with the scene in the Church, a lay Christian confessing to the Bishop/Father on a Sunday! Krishna in the garbha grha with only the Conch shell signifies the Call for battle, his aiding of Pandavas. We daily sing :"aDiyAmODum ninnODum ... paDai pOr pukku muzangum ap pAnjacannyamum pallaaNDE!". What date is the vimana of Parthasarathy temple? May be post 10th century (post-sankara) or is there a reconstruction Nayak or British period? vimana is brick and mortar and inscriptions on granite walls of Parthasarathy temple will give a clue. The earliest dates of inscriptions on the garbagrha walls?? Have to check T. V. Mahalingam, Inscripions of the Pallavas, ASI The contemporary papiermache or glittery aluminum alloy giitopadesha handicrafts are a direct result of semiticization of Hinduism. Krishna advising Arjuna - an individualistic counselunknown to Hinduism. Like Mr. Aditya Mishra saying that Westerners liked Gita so much because they can identify with it more than any other Hindu text; we just followed suit. I posted A. C. Soper's theory on Bodhisattva Maitreya. May be Gita-Krishna in MBh has certain relations to Maitreya. Both are from the same period. In Alvars' zrIvaiSNava world, Gita played little role if any. Deeply appreciate any references on early Gita sculptures in India and references on relations between Buddhism and Bhagavad Gita. Regards N. Ganesan NG> But nowhere they tell that Krishna told Giitaa or Vaarttai NG> to Arjuna in Naalaayiram. That is significant given NG> the importance of Gita in Sanskrit tradition. <<< While it is true that the three words "Arjuna", "Krishna", and "spoke" do not occur together anywhere in the Divya Prabandham, I cannot think of any reason why the Alvars would mention Krishna's standing in front of Arjuna's chariot other than to celebrate the Gita. Regarding the Tiruvallikkeni (Triplicane) Parthasarathy temple: Arjuna is not represented in the sannidhi; the mUla-bEra, known as Venkatakrishna, is present there with his entire family. Rukmini, Balarama, Satyaki (considered Krishna's younger brother), Pradyumna, and Aniruddha are all present. But this main image clearly represents Krishna in his role as Arjuna's charioteer; Krishna is _not_ shown with all his weapons, nor even with four hands, highly unusual for an image of Vishnu. In Tiruvallikkeni, he only has his conch, the absence of other weapons reflecting his promise not to fight while driving the chariot. [ For an image of this deity, see http://www.best.com/~mani/img/sarathymoolavar.jpg ] In addition, on the vimAna (the gOpura above the garbha gRha), there is a very clear sculpture of the Gitopadesa. Given that this is the vimAna gOpura, it is apparently of great antiquity. >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 21 20:17:34 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 12:17:34 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <19990121180728.19365.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045506.23782.6650633056348377630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ganesan, You wrote: > Krishna in the garbha grha with only the Conch shell signifies > the Call for battle, his aiding of Pandavas. > We daily sing :"aDiyAmODum ninnODum ... > paDai pOr pukku muzangum ap pAnjacannyamum pallaaNDE!". This can only mean that the Venkatakrishna mUlabEra is none other than Arjuna's charioteer, Parthasarathy. Tirumangai Alvar's verses on this temple describe the god within as "paarthan tan tEr mun ninRAnai", the one who "stands" in front of Arjuna's chariot -- a reference to none other than the Gitopadesam. With respect to Periyalvar's verse, the penultimate line is "vaDivAr cOdi valatturaiyum cuDar Aziyum pallANdu...", "Azi" meaning discus. This verse of Periyalvar has absolutely nothing to do with the Mahabharata war; it is a general song of benediction to all the attendants and weapons of Vishnu. It certainly should not affect our understanding of the Venkatakrishna mUlabEra. The mUlabEra in Tiruvallikkeni is shown without any weapons whatsoever, which is highly unusual for Vishnu, who is normally inseparable from his discus, and who is usually shown with many weapons. The only episode from the Mahabharata and Puranas where this absence is singularly important is when Krishna resolves not to fight while being Arjuna's charioteer. > Krishna advising Arjuna - an individualistic > counselunknown to Hinduism. Need I remind you that the Vedic teaching method is almost characteristically individualistic? The Upanishads are full of such "individualistic counsels" -- Yajnavalkya to Maitreyi, Uddalaka to Svetaketu, Sanatkumara to Narada, Indra to Pratardana, Yajnavalkya to Maitreyi... Furthermore, such individualistic counsels are rampant throughout the Mahabharata itself. > In Alvars' zrIvaiSNava world, Gita played little role > if any. This statement cannot be justified in any way. The Alvars rarely speak of specific statements from the Vedas; yet, would it be proper to conclude that they were ignorant of or mindless of them? This can hardly be sustained, based on an analysis of their philosophy. Similarly with the Gita; we have agreed that the Gita is mentioned in the Prabandham, but not with the frequency of other stories of Vishnu. The simplest explanation for this is that the Gita is not a "heroic" episode in Vishnu's life, but more illustrative of Vishnu's role as teacher. Frankly, the Alvars are not interested in singing about this aspect; perhaps they did not write about it because the Gitopadesam also does not fit neatly into the cankat tamizh categories of akam or puRam. To conclude in the same breath that they did not know or value the Gita is rash. I suspect your theory is that Sankara brought the Gita to prominence. Have you wondered why he would do so? It is not hard to see that the Gita needs to be twisted and stretched before Sankara's Advaita can be read from it. The Upanishads lend themselves easily to Sankara's interpretation, but not the Gita. Why would he have strived to bring such a non-Advaitic text to prominence? I am sorry to be so argumentative in this thread; but these unsubstantiated one-line theories are quite annoying. Mani From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 21 20:27:14 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 12:27:14 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045508.23782.1566048328589195522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hear that 'Saiva Siddhantam and Vishishtadvaitam are basically the same philosophically. Is this true, Mani? Also, are there any Gita quotes in Sanskrit texts pre-Sankara? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 21 20:38:40 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 12:38:40 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <19990121202714.15688.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045510.23782.10380492383666452212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > I hear that 'Saiva Siddhantam and Vishishtadvaitam are basically > the same philosophically. Is this true, Mani? > Saiva Siddhanta and Visishtadvaita are similiar in that they do not accept Sankara's Advaita philosophy. Both accept that there is a fundamental difference between the paramAtmA and jIva, known as Isvara and cit respectively in Visishtadvaita, pati and pasu in Saiva Siddhanta. However, the "pradhAna pratitantra" or basic tenet of Visishtadvaita philosophy is Ramanuja's SarIra-SarIri-bhAva, or body-soul explanation of how the universe and all its constituents relate to the Supreme Self. As far as I know, this is not part of Saiva Siddhanta philosophy. I also don't think the Saiva Siddhanta has a tradition of interpreting the Upanishads or other Vedic texts; they tend to stick to Saiva Agamas and the songs of the Nayanmars. In short, they are not the same philosophy. Mani From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 21 20:49:59 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 12:49:59 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <9130EFB0684CD211869E0020484016B512C212@satlmsgusr07.delta-air.com> Message-ID: <161227045513.23782.8397643313375355555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From the description given in "108 vaiNava Divya tEsa varalARu" > of "tiruvallikkENi" which I posted earlier, one cannot conclude that the > vEnkaTakrishNA > is related to pArthasArati. Neither the history of that temple nor the > image of the mUlavar helps you in this regard. It is true that the utsava-mUrti is known as Parthasarathy. However, from Tirumangai Alvar's paasuram (which is the basis for this discussion), it is clear that the deity within the temple was regarded as "the one who stood in front of Arjuna's chariot". I fail to see how this means that the mUla-bEra is different from the utsava-bEra in identity. >?From my reading, the sthala-purANa itself in no way denies that the mUla-bEra was known as Parthasarathy to the Alvars. I see no other possible explanation for the lack of weapons on the mUrti. Mani From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 21 22:25:06 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 14:25:06 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045516.23782.17617972538032275595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mani, Want to see what the medieval commentator says regarding "Krishna stood in front of the chariot"? Does the commentary talk that here teaching of gIta is implied? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From J.Napier at UNSW.EDU.AU Thu Jan 21 04:28:15 1999 From: J.Napier at UNSW.EDU.AU (John Napier) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 14:28:15 +1000 Subject: "Sagga and Sussondi" Message-ID: <161227045474.23782.14817194261516450899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi I'm trying to locate the source of a story recounted in Fox Strangways' "Music of Hindostan". In this story the minstrel Sagga sets out on a ship in search of Queen Sussondi. The sailors insist that he sing. At first he refuses on the grounds that it would send the fishes wild with excitement. They insist. When he sings, as he predicted, a sea-monster sinks the ship. Any help would be appreciated John Napier From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Thu Jan 21 13:36:11 1999 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 15:36:11 +0200 Subject: "Sagga and Sussondi" Message-ID: <161227045477.23782.4869884484112118023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> n 21 Jan 99 at 14:28, John Napier wrote: > Hi > > I'm trying to locate the source of a story recounted in Fox Strangways' > "Music of Hindostan". In this story the minstrel Sagga sets out on a ship > in search of Queen Sussondi. The sailors insist that he sing. At first he > refuses on the grounds that it would send the fishes wild with excitement. > They insist. When he sings, as he predicted, a sea-monster sinks the ship. > > Any help would be appreciated > > John Napier It is the PAli SussondijAtaka (JAtaka n. 360 Fausbo/ll). From Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI Thu Jan 21 13:45:00 1999 From: Kjkarttu at ELO.HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 15:45:00 +0200 Subject: Wooden Structure at Patna (Pataliputra) Message-ID: <161227045479.23782.15829748291826216418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 18 Jan 99 at 17:28, Chris Beetle wrote: > A wooden structure was unearthed in Patna (the ancient city of Pataliputra) > back in the 1920s. Some identified it with a wooden palisade mentioned by > Megasthenes. Do any of you have more information on the archaeology of this > site and the wooden structure found there? L.A.Waddell, Report on the Excavations at PATaliputra (Patna), the Palibothra of the Greeks. Calcutta 1903. J.-Ph.Vogel, "The Wooden Walls of PATaliputra", ABIA 3 (for the year 1928), 1930, 16-19. Briefly discussed with some further references in my India and the Hellenistic World, Helsinki 1997, p. 88. Regards Klaus Karttunen From ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK Fri Jan 22 00:28:47 1999 From: ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK (Jibunnessa) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 16:28:47 -0800 Subject: Over the top... Message-ID: <161227045497.23782.1639928337111398852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr Zydenbos I don't mean to be rude! However, I thought that Dominik Wujastyk made it quite clear that this 'The conversion issue' discussion thread was to be closed! You have since then just now sent 6 messages about it. I'm sure you have a lot to say on the topic, ...but this is rather over the top! Please do stop! Jibunnessa -- Jibunnessa Abdullah Fax: (+44) 181 731-9770 ------------------------------------------------------ Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, the yard must be wonky!" From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Jan 21 23:40:40 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 18:40:40 -0500 Subject: pots, brahmin names, and potters Message-ID: <161227045517.23782.5163296152726794510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Due to some problem with Dr. Arthur Karp's email, I am sending this to Indology. But the content is related to something discussed in Indology earlier. I hope he is able to receive this. In a message dated 1/7/99 5:48:07 PM Central Standard Time, hart at free.polbox.pl writes: > Any South Indian versions of the Ramayana that develop the theme of > Dazaratha's death? The motif of the king's body kept in (sesamum) oil? In kamparAmAyaNam, there is a chapter called "tailamATTU paTalam" or the chapter dealing with immersing in oil. In 2.5.76.4 we have the line "taiyaR kaTaliR kiTantAn2ait tayilak kaTalin2 Ralai yuyttaR", meaning "they put in the 'sea' of oil on ewho used to lie in the 'sea' of women". The word Ta. "tayila(m)" = Skt. taila. In 2.9.125.3 we have the line "eNNe yuNTapon2 n2ezilkoN mEn2iyai" Here the body of dazaratha is described as oily and beautiful. The word used to denote oil is "eNNey" Ta. eNNey = oil is really eL (sesame) + ney (oil, fat) = sesame oil. The same concept forms the basis for Sanskrit taila, where the word for sesame oil forms the basis for a generalized oil. In the Tamil version, vasiSTha who oversees the last rites prevents bharata from doing the last rites and asks zatrughna to do it. Regards S. Palaniappan From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Fri Jan 22 00:53:53 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 19:53:53 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045519.23782.606936920946770997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote : [...] Also it is interetsing to see that even though the standard imagery of the gItOpadEsa is that of both KrishNA and ArjunA both standing *on* the chariot and the former preaching gItA in that posture, the AlvAr says "in front of" the chariot ( of course without mentioning whether he was preaching anything to ArjunA). I wonder what the significance of this discrpepancy is. _____________ Is there any specific mention of the fact that Sri Krishna has actually alighted from the chariot i.e. he can be standing in front part of the chariot, as in sitting in front of a car. But he is depicted as standing here. So is there any mention that he is standing on the ground and in front of the horses too ? Thanks Ashish From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Jan 22 01:32:23 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 20:32:23 -0500 Subject: short "e" and long "E" in Kannada orthography Message-ID: <161227045521.23782.745537679963655735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can somebody tell me when short "e" and long "E" came to be differentiated orthographically in Kannada? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 21 15:45:21 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 20:45:21 +0500 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045483.23782.18254966394304778540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:02 19.01.99 -0500, Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote: >Robert Zydenbos wrote: ><<> >> At 12:18 18.01.99 +0100, Artur Karp wrote: >> >> >"Conversion" it seems may mean different things in different contexts. >> >> Indeed. E.g., the Roman Catholic view is that conversion is "man's free turning to God" and "has always to be seen as a response, made possible by God's grace, to a call from God." (K. Rahner, "Conversion", in _Sacramentum mundi_ vol. 2). [...] > >Well, quoting some 20th century version (or whatever) of Roman >Catholocism doesn't serve much purpose. Believe it or not, even Indians >do remember some historical happenings, especially within 300-400 years. I thought we were living in the 20th century now, and that we are on the verge of the 21st, and that we were discussing atrocities that are being perpetrated by _Indians_ against other _Indians_ in India who have embraced certain faiths and are exercising their human rights. Sorry if I was mistaken about all this... RZ From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 21 15:45:34 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 20:45:34 +0500 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045493.23782.16360475096668323466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:21 19.01.99 -0500, Bijoy Misra wrote: >I do observe RZ's various postings to have anti-Indian >stance. Let me assure you that your observation is baseless (and that I would not have been living in India for almost 16 years if I were anti-Indian). Please critically review your own views on what constitutes 'anti-Indian'. >The reason I write this note is to remind us that >it's not our goal (I think) to impose our views on people. >That's is the job of the people's leaders and they >know what to do. People's leaders must impose their views on people?... >To impose one's belief on another is called conversion. No. This is a patently false statement. Although I am not a Catholic, I have quoted a leading, representative Catholic theologian as an example of what conversion means. (Also Catholic persons and institutions have been targeted by delinquents in India; that is why I quoted him.) >There is no known Hindu preacher across the borders of India >until Swami Vivekananda started his ministry in NY in 1893. What were the 'borders of India' in former centuries, e.g., when the Ahoms were converted to Hinduism? Your argument is anti-historical and frivolous. >Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada followed with a different tradition >in 1969. Do you deny that Prabhupada was a Hindu? Was he not merely extending a practice overseas which was already established (e.g., in Assam), because he had the determination and means of doing so which previous generations did not have? >While various discourses and rituals are arranged in India, >there is no hindu initiation ceremony. False again. I will give only one example: the Virasaivas, from the 12th century onwards, have initiated people through li:ngadiik.saa. And please bear in mind that I do not condemn missionary activity by Hindus, or by anyone else for that matter. Genuine missionary activity leads to dialogue and forces the followers of every faith to rethink and invigorate their faith, irrespective of what that faith is. Through that rethinking they become more conscious of what their faith means; everybody can use that. The issue of the obsession with conversions, and the kinds of falsehoods that are spread, has been discussed in detail years ago in an article by Hans-Werner Gensichen, "The Future of Christianity in India", in: H. van Skyhawk, _'Minorities' on Themselves._ = South Asian Digest of Regional Writing vol. 11 (Heidelberg, 1985), pp. 29-40. RZ From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 21 15:45:37 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 20:45:37 +0500 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045481.23782.2576424244639134229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:56 19.01.99 -0500, Ashish Chandra wrote: >Robert Zydenbos, in his last post on this topic, said that Hare >Krishnas convert people in the US. I did not say so. Please read carefully before criticising. I cannot be held responsible for poor reading. ><<<< >RZ : >The entire anti-conversion issue looks like something anti-individual, >anti-democratic, anti-human, generated by political interests and not >justified by any binding doctrine or any generally established practice. I >believe that hardly anybody in the predominantly Christian West has raised >a hue and cry about thousands and millions of people becoming Buddhists, >Baha'is, Hindus, etc. etc. -- and this is how it should be. >>>>>> >This statement can only be made by one who is in total denial of the raw >facts as they exist in India. You must have at least read the missive of >the Sarvodaya leaders (Gandhians at that) who have written to PM Vajpayee >on the activities of the missionaries in Dangs. I'd like to know the basis >of such a statement(as above) if I may. The basis is in the United Nations charter of human rights. I believe that India too is a member of that organisation. [quote from the press] >Fr Cedric Prakash was quite emphatic. "Tribals are not Hindus. They >are animists" According to a court ruling that was posted in this list recently, the speaker is right. I am reminded of what B.R. Ambedkar wrote about Indian tribals in his book _Annihilation of Caste_: "Thirteen million people living in the midst of civilization are still in a savage state and are leading the life of hereditary criminals!! But the Hindus have never felt ashamed of it. This is a phenomenon which in my view is quite unparalleled." Perhaps Ambedkar was 'anti-Indian'? RZ From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 21 15:45:41 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 20:45:41 +0500 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045489.23782.12697959061614072698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 22:38 19.01.99 -0500, Partha Banerjee wrote: >Bijoy Misra writes: > >>Scholars study history, culture, rituals, politics, >>but they aren't politicians. Dogmas are left for >>the preachers, evangelists, orators, who have taken >>upon themselves the act of preaching. > >To believe that "scholars" cannot be political is dogmatic too. There have >been many scholars who kept involved in political theorization and >activism. I see no problems with that. We also need to define what is >politics and what is not. For scholarship to thrive, certain preconditions must be met: e.g., a free flow of information, and freedom of speech and the press. Freedom of conscience, freedom to discuss. These can indeed be considered political issues. We know what has happened to scholarship under totalitarian regimes that tried and try to obliterate these freedoms. To speak up for such freedoms can be considered a very basic political deed, one that is (or at least: should be -- though postings on this list sometimes suggest otherwise) not controversial and supported by the majority of humanity. >Like I said before, to play apolitical often is a ploy to keep critics and >criticism out of the way. So, playing/preaching "apolitical" often is >purposefully political. E.g., when one senses that squashing a discussion in the name of being 'apolitical' would further a political development that is already underway. RZ From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 21 15:45:44 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 20:45:44 +0500 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045487.23782.11781361132920530445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:38 19.01.99 -0600, Sumedh Mungee wrote: >Very well put. Not only do I agree 100%, but I admire and envy the >degree of maturity that Mr. Misra has exhibited in his post. > >The anti-Indians (and there are some Indians amongst them) on this >list are puzzling to me. I fail to understand why they would devote so >much of their (and other peoples) time discussing, sermonizing and >handing out harangues on a system and a culture that they obviously >have such little respect for. >On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Bijoy Misra wrote: > >> I do observe RZ's various postings to have anti-Indian >> stance. Your (and not only your) basic problem is that India is more than you think it is. Much more. Apparently the postings on this list fail to convince you. But perhaps you will find out for yourself in due course of time. What I find personally very hurtful about these 'discussions' on this once-upon-a-time academic list is that I too could have been a computer programmer or something else that is comfortable in the Western world. Instead, I studied Sanskrit and a few other Indian languages, spent more than half of my life learning about Indian culture and have been living in India for almost 16 years, with my very Indian (yes, rural brahmin, with a family history that has literally been carved in stone for a thousand years, for your information) wife and hence half-Indian daughter. -- I will not go into further personal details. But can you understand that I am annoyed (to put it mildly) at being accused of being 'anti-Indian' by NRI astronomers and computer fellows who have left India for a life in the US? I honestly believe that I do not deserve this. Also, I think I should not respond to any further such totally immature postings. RZ Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 21 15:45:48 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 20:45:48 +0500 Subject: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045485.23782.10070028572027471125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:45 19.01.99 -0500, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: >Robert Zydenbos wrote: >> I believe that hardly anybody in the predominantly Christian West has >> raised a hue and cry about thousands and millions of people becoming >> Buddhists, Baha'is, Hindus, etc. etc. -- and this is how it should be. > >May be this is because you are in India and don't listen to the likes >of Pat Robertson. PR is an American problem, the kind of person about whom people in Europe laugh. Already in Canada he and his look-alikes are considered reasons for making fun of the US. Please remember that 'the West' is much bigger than the US or Mr Robertson. Furthermore, does Robertson have the kind of support that enables him to burn down mosques, synagogues or temples? I understand that the number of Hindu temples in the US is increasing, not decreasing on account of vandalism. I don't think your comparison is entirely correct. RZ From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Jan 21 15:52:36 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 20:52:36 +0500 Subject: 'Siva Nandi In-Reply-To: <01BE44C1.E9A2F3A0.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227045499.23782.13183216615479983259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not think so. In this story there is no stepping over of kALi over siava. regards, sarma. At 10:12 PM 1/20/99 -0500, you wrote: >As regards the pose, does this have any connection with the pictures of >Shiva and Kali one finds wherein Kali exclaims in disbelief (open-mouthed) >after she has realized that she has just stepped over her husband Shiva ? > >Thanks >Ashish > > From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 21 16:07:03 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 21:07:03 +0500 Subject: [ADMIN] Thread closed: Re: The conversion issue Message-ID: <161227045495.23782.18908935090148148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 17:53 20.01.99 +0000, you wrote: >This discussion thread is now closed. > >Thank you, > >Dominik Sorry, my last messages were sent before I read this notification. RZ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 22 16:03:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 08:03:19 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045530.23782.15314575567874325970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NG>> Krishna advising Arjuna - an individualistic NG>> counsel unknown to Hinduism. MV> The Upanishads are full MV>of such "individualistic counsels" -- Yajnavalkya to Maitreyi, MV>Uddalaka to Svetaketu, Sanatkumara to Narada, Indra to MV>Pratardana, Yajnavalkya to Maitreyi... What I originally meant was God-to-Human conversations. Counsels between humans, mostly men, are rampant in Sanskrit. The radical difference in Gita is it is God's counsel to a Man which is unknown even after the advent of Gita in Hinduism. Like Bodhisattva Maitreya descending from Tushita heaven onto earth to save humans. -------------- MV>I also don't think the Saiva Siddhanta has a tradition of MV>interpreting the Upanishads or other Vedic texts; MV>they tend to stick to Saiva Agamas and the songs MV>of the Nayanmars. To gain acceptability in India, every religious cult must say it is descended out of Vedas. Everything under the sun must come from Veda. Uttara kAmikAgama announces "siddhAnto vedasAras syAt". Helene Brunner, 'Saiva siddhAnta, Essence du Veda, Indologica Taurinensia, 1980-1, p. 51-66. KaasivAsi CentinAtaiyar wrote in 19th century Tevaram VedasAram in 400+ pages. My copy is in India right now. In South Tamil Nadu, Christians are known as VedakArar. In the Muslim stalapurANams including CiiRaa, vEdam or maRai means Koran. This aspect is being studied by Prof. Vasudha Narayanan nowadays. -------------- Prof. G. v. Simson asked whether chariot and charioteer are denoted by the same term in Tamil. As far as I know, definitely tEr is only the chariot, never its driver. I read Tirumangai Alvar's 10 pAsurams on Tiruvallikkeni. Definitely, what Mani says is not there: These poems do NOT repeatedly speak of Krishna as the charioteer. Only twice, Krishna as charioteer along with repeating many other legends from all avatAras - mainly from Krishna and Rama. Nowhere the Alvar mentions Bhagavad Gita. Let me give a clue why Krishna as charioteer only is told in the first poem: The first 1.2 line explains killing of Kamsa, The Second line talks of 'Siva killing tripuras and Vishnu gracing 'Siva, The third line says "to destroy enemies, standing in front of Partha's chariot" The fourth line is on the orders of step mother, Rama going to forest. (eventually to kill Ravana) The tripura dahanam of "siva riding in a chariot is brought in here by Tirumangai mannan/aalvar to highlght the Krishna riding the chariot. (Partha Sarathy) Killing Kamsa, Elephant, mahout, Tripurams, Kauravas is what Alvar says. Here Krishna as charioteer to Arjuna is all Alvar says. Thru' Bhakti, we can imply Gita. That's all. Want to see what medieval commentator says. Does PeriyavAccAn Pillai (vyAkhyAna chakravarti) talk of Gita for this poem?? In the seond instance (Poem 6) where Alvar talks of Krishna as charioteer, Alvar is mostly describing PAJjAli's call for help and Krshna giving clothes. Alvar could have used the space for Gita in that poem if he had felt it necessary. Obviously, he did not feel that way. Poem 2 is taken up for Vishnu being vedas, their essence, fruit eaten by sages, primordial one, ambrosia. Poem 3 describing vivdly the killing the demoness and becoming mOhini. Poem 4 a detailed description of govardana giridAri. Poem 5 describes in many words, Krishna as emissay of Pandavas. Poem 7 is fully used for killing Ravana. Poem 8 in Tiruvallikeni decad, he describes completely Narasimha avatAr. Poem 9 portrays fully the gajendra mOksha episode. Poem 10 benefits of reading the above verses. The absence of Gita in Tiruvallikeni Paasurams is puzzling, Krishna as charioteer to Arjuna comes in 2 places only. In the whole 4000 poems, only at one instance we can imply Gita. Compared to the position of BhG in India's national discourse, BhG was occupying a miniscule, if any, postion in Alvars' days. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 22 18:20:02 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 10:20:02 -0800 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045543.23782.18321628285461267604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Prof. G. v. Simson asked whether chariot and charioteer >>are denoted by the same term in Tamil. >>As far as I know, definitely tEr is only the chariot, >>never its driver. >Well, I did not mean "its driver", but the warrior standing on the >car, behind the driver. But I assume you will say that this can be >excluded as well. The Alvar's words: "pArttan2 tan2 tEr mun2 nin2RAn2ai" - It means "the guy who stood in front of Arjuna's chariot". It simply means Krishna as Arjuna's Charioteer. To read "the one who stood on top of Arjuna's chariot in the front" we need different phrases: eg., 1) "pArttan2 tan2 tErkkaN mun2 nin2RAn2ai" or, 2) "pArttan2 tan2 tEril mun2 nin2RAn2ai" or, 3) "pArttan2 tan2 tErmEl mun2 nin2RAn2ai" These cases are totally absent in Alvar's pAsuram (poems). Are they 'vERRumait tokai'? >>The third line says "to destroy enemies, standing in >>front of Partha's chariot" >Could the text also be understood as: "standing in the front part of >Partha's chariot"? Explicitly, it cannot be assumed this way. Tamil Cases like "il" or kaN" or the word "mEl" are absent. Regards N. Ganesan PS: A humble request to Thiru. Chandra, Let us all use Madras univ. transliteration scheme for Tamil. Widely used in scholarly publications from 1930s. Also in Institute of Indology and Tamil studies web page for an extensive collection of all Tamil literature, Tamil lexican and Tamil books catalogue. Tamil transliteration without diacritical marks: ************************************************ Vowels: a aa/A i ii/I u uu/U e ee/E ai o oo/O au Consonants: k g c jn T N t n p m y r l v z L R n2 Aytam: q/H Thanks, ng ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 22 18:45:15 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 10:45:15 -0800 Subject: maNipravALa transliteration [was SV: creation of human kind] In-Reply-To: <19990122182002.9668.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045544.23782.15579779615826589472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A question on transliteration standards: Dr. Ganesan writes: > PS: A humble request to Thiru. Chandra, Let us all use > Madras univ. transliteration scheme for Tamil. Widely used > in scholarly publications from 1930s. Also in > Institute of Indology and Tamil studies web page > for an extensive collection of all Tamil literature, > Tamil lexican and Tamil books catalogue. > > Tamil transliteration without diacritical marks: > ************************************************ > Vowels: a aa/A i ii/I u uu/U e ee/E ai o oo/O au > Consonants: k g c jn T N t n p m y r l v z L R n2 > Aytam: q/H > This poses a problem when transliterating maNipravALa texts, such as the commentaries of the Sri Vaishnava acharyas, which contain Tamil and Sanskrit in varying equal quantities, depending on the author. Some problem areas are vocalic r, vocalic l, and the sibilants. Is there a suggested transliteration scheme? Mani From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 22 18:53:47 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 10:53:47 -0800 Subject: God-human counsels In-Reply-To: <19990122160320.9448.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045548.23782.13240180911090807248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Ganesan writes: > What I originally meant was God-to-Human conversations. > Counsels between humans, mostly men, are rampant in Sanskrit. > The radical difference in Gita is it is God's counsel to > a Man which is unknown even after the advent of Gita in > Hinduism. I do not know how you can say this. In post-Gita Hinduism, God-human counsels are very prominent. The Puranas are full of them. One need only look at the Bhagavata Purana, or the (Vaishnava, Saiva, or SAkta) Agamas to see this. One may argue that this too is the influence of Buddhism, either through the Gita or directly, but God-human counsels certainly aren't "unknown". Mani From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 22 19:32:39 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 11:32:39 -0800 Subject: madhura subhASiNI of mAyUram Message-ID: <161227045552.23782.1551456575399344008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Example of wrong translation: --------------------------------- MayilADutuRai (Maayuuram/Maayavaram) is a taluk headquarters in Thanjavur district (Kaveri delta). Kaa + viri = Garden/forest expanding river is the meaning of Kaaviri in Tamil/Dravidian. Sanskritization made it into KaavEri, with puraaNa legends saying the river KaavEri is the daughter of kavEra muni. Even CilappatikAram uses both kAviri and KAvEri. Tamils pray to the Goddess at MayilaaDutuRai as "aJcol ammai", the Goddess with sweet speech, parrot-like speech. Saint Appar in 7th century AD sings this Goddess of mayil aaDu tuRai as one with sweet speech. veJcin2ak kaTum kAlan2 viraikilAn2; aJcu iRappum piRappum aRukkalAm; - maJcan2, mA mayilADu tuRaiyuRai aJcolAL umai paGkan2 aruLilE! ^^^^^^^ AmbAL's ( N. Ganesan wrote: > [...] > In the whole 4000 poems, only at one instance we can imply > Gita. Compared to the position of BhG in India's national > discourse, BhG was occupying a miniscule, if any, postion > in Alvars' days. > Does anyone have any information on the position Mahabharata occupied in the learning process of ancienct and medeival India ? It is a Smriti text and there are 15 Gitas in the Mahabharata, including the Bhagawat Gita (please correct this if I am mistaken about the number 15). Familiraity with the MBh. could imply familiarity with the BG. The various incidents relating to Sri Krishna that the Alvars sing of, are these from the MBh. or the Puranas ? Would it be correct to interpret that a reference to the entire MBh. is quantified in the Alvars' poems as Sri Krishna standing in front of/on the chariot with Arjuna ? If I am not mistaken, Bodhayana, whom Sri Ramanuja quotes, has made references to the BG and MBh. in his vartikka. Bodhayana is dated to about 400 BC. If there is a detailed reply to this, please send it to me directly (in keeping with the policy of 2k as the post limit). Thanks Ashish -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri Jan 22 09:27:30 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 12:27:30 +0300 Subject: Sumerian-MuNDa parallels Message-ID: <161227045522.23782.11124993114632690297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Attn.: linguists on the list. Some of you may find interesting a recent article: Igor M. Diakonoff. External Connections of the Sumerian Language. - "Mother Tongue". Journal of the Association for the Study of Language in Prehistory. Issue III (Dec., 1997), pp. 54-62. It contains an attempt at formulating differences and similiarities between Sumerian and MuNDa in order to check the possibility of the genetic connection. A short list of lexical parallels (34 items) between Sumerian and Kherwari is added. In the author's view the research in this direction may probably help to find an answer to the old question: Where did the Sumerians come from? The author's interest in the matter is purely academic. I mean that he does not try to prove that Sumerians colonized India, or that Munda people invaded Mesopotamia, or that somebody converted somebody, etc. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov From zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Fri Jan 22 11:39:51 1999 From: zysk at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Kenneth G. Zysk) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 12:39:51 +0100 Subject: Ram Karan Sharma Message-ID: <161227045524.23782.10967089860836239387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should very much appreciate it if someone could provide me with the current contact numbers for Dr. Ram Karan Sharma. Please send responses to private email (below). Thank you, KGZ -- Kenneth G. Zysk University of Copenhagen Department of Asian Studies Leifsgade 33, 5 DK-Copenhagen S Denmark Phone: +45.35.32.88.32 FAX: +45.53.32.88.35 Email: zysk at coco.ihi.ku.dk From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Fri Jan 22 23:54:42 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 13:54:42 -1000 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <19990122182002.9668.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045558.23782.15095596133316222696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > The Alvar's words: "pArttan2 tan2 tEr mun2 nin2RAn2ai" - > It means "the guy who stood in front of Arjuna's chariot". > It simply means Krishna as Arjuna's Charioteer. Two comments/questions: 1. As you mentioned, "pArttan2 tan2 tEr mun2 nin2RAn2ai" simply means: "the person who stood in front of Arjuna's chariot" But this can mean two things -- standing (on the ground) in front of the chariot; or, standing on the chariot at the front. In modern Tamil, the more natural interpretation would be standing on the ground in front of the chariot. E.g., if I said "Bus mun nirpavan" it would be a lot more natural to interpret it as "the person standing (in the road) in front of the bus" rather than "the person standing in the front part of the bus". But possibly, the Tamil of the Alvars has to be interpreted differently since it isn't modern Tamil. 2. Is there a special significance to "nin2RAn2", i.e., "stood"? Did charioteers usually stand or sit? If charioteers usually sat while driving, "nin2RAn2", i.e., "stood", seems significant. It would seem to indicate an activity other than driving the chariot. E.g., talking to Arjuna. Regards, Raja. From pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR Fri Jan 22 12:58:10 1999 From: pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR (Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 13:58:10 +0100 Subject: short "e" and long "E" in Kannada orthography Message-ID: <161227045526.23782.5650284535658602568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Can somebody tell me when short "e" and long "E" came to be differentiated >orthographically in Kannada? Thanks in advance. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan Long "E" is marked in Kannada script with a separate sign, looking like an left-right-inverted 9. This dIrgha sign appears for the first time, to mark a long "A", in an incription from Hampi dated 19.5.1561 (see P.-S. Filliozat and V. Filliozat, Hampi-Vijayanagar, The Temple of ViThala,Delhi, 1988: p.81). It is attested for "E" in manuscripts of 18th century, but rarely. It became current with printing. Vasundhara Filliozat Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Jan 22 13:23:20 1999 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 14:23:20 +0100 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <9130EFB0684CD211869E0020484016B512C212@satlmsgusr07.delta-air.com> Message-ID: <161227045527.23782.4777191789179812961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Periannan.Chandrasekaran wrote: >Also it is interesting to see that even though the standard >imagery of the gItOpadEsa is that of both KrishNA and ArjunA >both standing *on* the chariot and the former preaching gItA >in that posture, the AlvAr says "in front of" the chariot (of course >without mentioning whether he was preaching anything to ArjunA). >I wonder what the significance of this discrepancy is. Is it possible that the word for "chariot" has to be interpreted as "chariot warrior" (i.e. Arjuna) in this context? Remember that Sanskrit ratha means both "chariot" and "warrior", "hero". Regards G.v.Simson From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Jan 22 16:31:27 1999 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 17:31:27 +0100 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: <19990122160320.9448.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045533.23782.14202098422965998515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Prof. G. v. Simson asked whether chariot and charioteer >are denoted by the same term in Tamil. > >As far as I know, definitely tEr is only the chariot, >never its driver. Well, I did not mean "its driver", but the warrior standing on the car, behind the driver. But I assume you will say that this can be excluded as well. >The third line says "to destroy enemies, standing in >front of Partha's chariot" Could the text also be understood as: "standing in the front part of Partha's chariot"? Regards, G.v.Simson From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Jan 22 23:10:07 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 18:10:07 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045556.23782.15570374187172766428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/22/99 10:35:29 AM Central Standard Time, g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO writes: > Could the text also be understood as: "standing in the front part of > Partha's chariot"? In fact, this is exactly what the meaning is. One can compare the cilappatikAram lines below. tErmun2 nin2Ra ticai mukan2 kANap pArati ATiya viyan2 pANTaraGkamum (cilappatikAram 6.44-45) According to the commentator aTiyArkkunallAr, "tErmun2" refers to the front part of the chariot where brahma is standing. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 23 01:39:12 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 20:39:12 -0500 Subject: Back to Belgaum Message-ID: <161227045560.23782.17734161056938449441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The beNDigEri plates of the Yadava king Krishna dated to be from 1249-50 AD, reveal some interesting information about the name of Belgaum. In "A Copper- Plate Grant of the Yadava King Krishna" K. B. Pathak says, "And the chief object of it is to record that MalliseTTi, the minister of kRiSNa, bestowed the village of tAmbrapurI, in the district of vENugrAma or Belgaum, upon a number of brAhmaNs " (The transliteration 'vENugrAma' follows that of K. B. Pathak.) In light of the findings of kumArila bhaTTa regarding the Sanskritic tendency to treat Dravidian words as IA words, one can see how vEL with an enunciative vowel can become vENu in Sanskrit provided we allow for the alternation of vEL with vEN in the local area. In fact, the alternation of -L- and -N- in an etymological group in Dravidian has been recognized by linguists as in koL-/koN-. (Emeneau, 1994, p. 363). The presence of *v- inferred from Dravidian linguistics is also confirmed by the Sanskrit name. We are fortunate to have the form vEN occurring in a Tamil-Brahmi inscription tentaively dated by T. V. Mahalingam to be from 3rd to 2nd Century B.C. The inscription is found in a cavern in Marugaltalai near Tirunelveli. It reads, "vEN kOsipan kuTupita kal kAJcaNam". (See "Early South Indian Paleography", p.221) Here vEN stands for vEL. Robert Zydenbos wrote: << "Belgaum" is written, in Kannada script, as "be.lagaavi". But what must be noted here is that the vowel is _short_. This may be completely lost on Marathi speakers, in whose language the Devanagari script is now commonly used, in which the short e "doesn't exist" If a word / name contains an e, and if it is of Indo-Aryan origin, it is always represented in Kannada as a _long_ e (i.e., its original prosodic quantity is preserved; though this may differ in the case of tadbhava words).>> The -a in beLagAvi could have been an enunciative -a as in kUDal/kUDala. As for the variation in vowel length, Vasundhara Filliozat said "e" and "E" could not be differentiated before the 16th century in Kannada orthography. So is it not possible that the variation in the vowel length could have been influenced by orthography, and we would have the form beLa- instead of bELa-. (A parallel situation in Tamil is the vowel length variation in "vEGkaTakiri" in Tamil KantapurANam vs. "veGKaTakiri" of today's usage.) Could this not have led to the re-interpretation that the name "beLagAvi" is from Ka. beLa- meaning "white"? Any comments from Kannada scholars is appreciated. Regards S. Palaniappan From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Fri Jan 22 16:37:05 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 21:37:05 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990119210523.008545e0@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045532.23782.16161502536514760511.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> PARVATA -1 When bhartRhari wrote "parvatAdAgamaM labdhvA bhASya bIjAnusAribhiH | sa nitO bahuzAkhAtvaM chandrAchAryAdibhiH punaH ||" we can assume that he was sure that people at that time would easily recognise or uniquely locate the place from which the vyAkaraNAgama was obtained. That means the word "parvata" is a proper noun and the name of a wellknown place. The "nallamala" range of hills in the telugu country extend right from ahObilaM-tirumala to zrizailaM-nAgArjunakoMDa. In dravidian "nalla" stands for good and "mala" stands for mountain. The word nalla has been sanskritised as "zrI" which can mean auspicious, mejastic or lovely. Thus the words "nallamala", "tirumala", "zrIzaila", "zrIgiri" "zrIparvata" are synonyms. The Lord Venkateswara of tirumala has the name "malayappa". According to P.V.Parabrahma Sastry, Retired Deputy Director, Department of Archeology and Museums, Government of Andhra Pradesh, he is also called "mallaiperumAL". The Lord Mallikarjuna of zrIzailaM is also called as "mallayyakarasar"which can be translated as king of the hill (malai+ku+arasar. This splitting overlooking the double 'l' and double 'y' is not correct according to linguistis. My reply is linguistics studies and analyses the usage but cannot control or dictate the usage. This is because of the unpredicatability of the human element. prayOgO.aziSyaM. lOkAzrayatvAt pryOgasya.). It needs no stretch of imagination to assume that, in the early days of interaction of aryans with the south, nallamala hills could well have served as the first candidates for "malaya" hills, before they were identified with the southern most range of India. The point to be noted here is that "nalla" was an adjuctive only and the names malayappa, mallaipermAL or mallayyakarasar do not contain it. The name zrIparvata was used for nAgArjunakoMDa according to ikSvAku inscriptions. zrIparvata is also used for zrIzailaM the abode of Lord mallikArjuna. This is because of thei proximity in the same mountain range. zrizailaM is 60 km west of nAgArjunakoMDa. Thus the word zrIparvata was used for both zrIzailam and nAgArjunakoMda for some time. - to be continued regards, sarma. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Fri Jan 22 17:14:05 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 22:14:05 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227045537.23782.16309603406988933666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:37:05 +0500. I wrote in the previous posting "prayOgO.aziSyaM. lOkAzrayatvAt pryOgasya." It should be "prayOgO.aziSyaH. lOkAzrayatvAt prayOgasya." The error is regretted. regards, sarma. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Fri Jan 22 19:40:52 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 00:40:52 +0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045550.23782.13366332033609067211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:23 PM 1/22/99 +0100, you wrote: >Is it possible that the word for "chariot" has to be interpreted as >"chariot warrior" (i.e. Arjuna) in this context? Remember that Sanskrit >ratha means both "chariot" and "warrior", "hero". > >Regards > >G.v.Simson > > Though MMW gives the meanings that you have indicated for "ratha", the more frequent practice in sanskrit is to use "rathi" or "rathika" for the hero or warrior. regards, sarma. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 23 08:31:43 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 03:31:43 -0500 Subject: Re. dakSiNAmuRti -1 Message-ID: <161227045561.23782.9343094343295462290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Because of the length, I am splitting this post into two parts. In a message dated 1/21/99 10:55:17 AM Central Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > CilappatikAram (ca. 400 AD) is the first Indian text mentioning > Dakshinamurthy. This is not correct. If dakSiNAmUrti as one sitting under a banyan tree is the one being referred to, CT texts mention it in many places as Dr. N. Ganesan has noted in an earlier posting. If it is the "southern" aspect of dakSiNAmUrti is what is being specifically referred to, then the earliest reference is in the CT text, maturaikkAJci, as given in the following lines. ten2n2avan2 peyariya tun2 aru tuppin2 tol mutu kaTavuL pin2n2ar mEya varai tAz aruvi poruppin2 poruna (maturaikkAJci 40-42) Here the Pandiyan king is praised as the "warrior who posseses the mountain with cascading waterfalls where reside the disciples/followers of the ancient god with unapproachable prowess who has the same name as the Southern One". The mountain here refers to "potiyil' even though it is not explicitly named here. This will become obvious when we compare these lines with the following lines from cilappatikAram maRai mutu mutalvan2 pin2n2ar mEya poRai uyar potiyil poruppan2 . (cil.12.24.1-2) Translation: "the one possessing the "potiyil" mountain where the followers of the ancient first one of the vedas live" The lines from maturaikkAJci have not been properly understood till now. Old commentators such as naccin2Arkkin2iyar as well as modern commentators such as perumazaippulavar have been influenced so much by the Agastya myth that they have overlooked a basic grammatical flaw in their interpretation. The lines actually talk about multiple followers and not a single person. For instance if a single person were to be referred to, we should have maRai mutu mutalvan2 pin2n2an2/pin2n2On2. The use of honorific singular is not likely given the style of CT poems or the use of singular for the god ziva himself . Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 23 08:31:45 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 03:31:45 -0500 Subject: Re. dakSiNAmUrti -2 Message-ID: <161227045563.23782.13883284916536651208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That "pin2n2ar" in maturaikkAJci refers to disciples/followers is the right interpretation can be seen from the following kantapurANam lines. muntai vEtam muzutum uNarttiyE entai Eka iru nilam pOntu tam cintai on2Rum tiRan2 aritu Atalin2 nontu pin2n2arum nERRalai mEyin2Ar (kantapurANam 471) Thus the presence of the zaivite followers of the dakSiNAmUrti cult at potiyil mountain must have been a significant and well-known aspect of the Tamil region from very early times. The name kuRRAlam, the location of the famous waterfalls in potiyil, means "a short banyan tree". As we all know, the banyan tree is an integral part of the dakSiNAmUrti motif. The other name of the mountain at kuRRAlam is tirikUTamalai (=Skt. trikUTa) It is this mythical/cult motif of dakSiNAmUrti as a teacher teaching his students/followers at potiyil, along with the real world existence of grammarians such as tolkAppiyan2 and the teacher of ataGkOTu in the nearby area which must have given birth to the myth of ziva teaching Tamil to agastya towards the end of the Classical Tamil period. On the potiyil mountain, there must have been some sculptural representation of this motif which was interpreted as avalokitezvara by Buddhists. The similarities between some dakSiNAmUrti and avalokitezvara forms are striking. This is probably the basis for Hieun Tsang's statement regarding Potalaka. Further implications of this will be discussed later in the thread, "Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc." Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 23 14:33:11 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 06:33:11 -0800 Subject: Hindu new years day Message-ID: <161227045565.23782.15330715846882127384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Uttarayana does not begin with either the vernal equinox or >Mesha-sankraanti; it begins with the winter solstice, around >December 20-22 Doesn't the Uttarayana in traditional Hindu astrology begin with Jan. 14th (Pongal/makara sankrAnti)? If correct, it is like the difference between mesha sankrAnti and vernal equinox. Interested in references which explain the relationship between Hindu astrological terms and modern astronomical terms. Many thanks. Best regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 23 14:34:41 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 06:34:41 -0800 Subject: Introductions to Jyotihsastra Message-ID: <161227045566.23782.4615614370779843643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >As you mention being an artist, you might be interested in a thesis >on the iconography of Hindu planetary deities published a few >years ago. Unfortunately, the author's name has slipped my >mind. Does anyone else remember? Stephen Markel, Origins of the Indian planetary deities, Lewiston, NY: E. Mellen, 1995 I gave this under the thread, navagraha worship in June 1997. Navagraha worshipped as planetary deities, April 98 may be relevant too. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Jan 23 15:12:24 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 10:12:24 -0500 Subject: Hindu new years day In-Reply-To: <14562767539246@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045570.23782.6024412315816430170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Martin Gansten wrote: > >Doesn't the Uttarayana in traditional Hindu astrology begin > >with Jan. 14th (Pongal/makara sankrAnti)? If correct, it is > >like the difference between mesha sankrAnti and vernal equinox. > > Yes, you're right; apparently my previous statement was too hasty -- at > least partially. Balabhadra's Horaratna (a 17th century work, but based on > older sources) mentions that 'some' use tropical calculations to determine > the ayanas, but that this should not be done for ordinary purposes, such as > determining auspicious times. Here, Makara/Karka sankranti is used instead. > Obviously this is a survival from the time when these sankrantis really did > coincide with the solstices. Is there a source for the last sentence? I would think that the Sakranti could relate to the declination of the sun at an intermediate latitude. I wish to check. Thank you. - BM From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Jan 23 17:56:57 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 12:56:57 -0500 Subject: Hindu new years day In-Reply-To: <16492983740140@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045574.23782.2275886929326157113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Martin Gansten wrote: > >> Obviously this is a survival from the time when these sankrantis really did > >> coincide with the solstices. > > > >Is there a source for the last sentence? I would think that > >the Sakranti could relate to the declination of the sun at an > >intermediate latitude. > > This isn't clear to me. How would they relate? The ayanas are the northern > and southern course of the sun. Irrespective of where you are on the globe, > the sun will be observed at the northern tropic at summer solstice (around > 21 June), and at the southern tropic at winter solstice (around 21 > December). These dates would not alter depending on your location (though of > course the terms 'summer' and 'winter' are so dependent), nor would they > change with time. The sankrantis, however, do change; in Balabhadra's time, > they would have taken place some 5 days earlier than today, owing to > precession (ayanamsha). > I don't know how the hindu astronmers define sakranti. I would think that the topics as a concept would be new. In such case one can create a different frame of reference. On the other hand if they connected sakranti to solstice then we have an erroneous calculation. I wish to check. Which text to look? - BM From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sat Jan 23 19:05:39 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 13:05:39 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045576.23782.16569736763114057168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Belated thanks to Subrahmanya for this citation: >Prof. Rabe might be interested in this article by the well known(?) >Ashok Row Kavi. >http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/dec/16fire.htm > >IMHO, discussion of Fire or for that matter politics is nor mentioned >in this list's charter. If current day Indian issues/politics are >ok for this list, then I guess it should be mentioned as such. ... >Selective picking of topics in my opinion is not correct. > >Subrahmanya. With respect I beg to differ whenever current events appear to shed light on [or conversely, call for some from] Indological source texts and images. As a related [firey] example, from this week's news: From: India Network Editor Subject: India Network News Digest - Jan 21, 1999 >#1. Allies pressure Centre for action against Shiv Sena > Pressure mounted on the Vajpayee Government, from including its allies, to >deal with Shiv Sena firmly in the wake of its opposition to Pakistan's >cricket tour of India even as Shiv Sainiks in Tamil Nadu tonight threatened >to turn themselves into `suicide squads' in their attempt to disrupt the >Indo-Pak match in Chennai. ... >...Reiterating the seriousness of their intentions, three >Sena volunteers were arrested for throwing pig-heads in front of the M A >Chidambaram stadium today, while a Hindu Munnani volunteer, an >auto-rickshaw driver, set himself on fire as an act of protest against >staging the match and was admitted to a city hospital with extensive burns. Obviously, this is reminiscent of the numerous SELF-immolations that transpired [plus a few of the aided-and-abetted variety] during the anti-Mandal protests of 1990-91. If anyone is interested I could scan and post a poignant IndiaToday cover showing a Delhi university student's Levi's going up in flames before his box of matches hits the pavement. So here's my serious Indological query to Thiru Ganesan [whom I had the pleasure of meeting for the first time this week] and others: "what's with this fire thing?" To the extent that there ARE deep indological roots that reach back through Sita's Agni Pariksha and beyond, might they be traced further back or more significantly to Vedic sources, or the Tamilian/Dravida/IVC side of the genetic ledger? Ie., are we better able to understand these horrific contemporary events as reflections, however distorted, of a Fire god as priest/intermediary twixt god and man, or more akin to Dravidian fire-walking praxis? Can anyone cite an early Tamil, or Sanskritic textual reference to the latter practice. Or is it only noted in print first, along with hook-swining, etc., by Abbe DeBois in the 16th c? Michael Rabe School of the Art Institute of Chicago Saint Xavier University From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Jan 23 19:59:49 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 14:59:49 -0500 Subject: Hindu new years day In-Reply-To: <19440007200491@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045580.23782.15592175562364588760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Martin Gansten wrote: > > Tropical calculations were certainly known to Balabhadra, as he refers to > them explicitly. In fact, accepting the conservative view that horoscopy and > the zodiac entered India from Greece (which in my opinion is questionable, > but hardly disprovable), the tropical/sidereal difference ought to have been > known to Indian astrologers from the very beginning, as it was known to > Greek authors. And in any case it is a simple matter of observation: the > very concept of ayanas is based on the observation that the sun travels > northward half of the year and southward the other half. The tropics are > simply the limits of these northern and southern courses, respectively. In > fact, knowledge of the actual solstices and equinoxes does not require as > sophisticated an astronomy as confusing them with zodiacal ingresses does! > Sounds reasonable. > >I wish to check. Which text to look? > > A guess would be the Suryasiddhanta, though I haven't studied it in any > detail myself. > I will check and get back (month?) - Bijoy Misra From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sat Jan 23 14:56:27 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 15:56:27 +0100 Subject: Hindu new years day Message-ID: <161227045568.23782.3693106380590607960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Doesn't the Uttarayana in traditional Hindu astrology begin >with Jan. 14th (Pongal/makara sankrAnti)? If correct, it is >like the difference between mesha sankrAnti and vernal equinox. Yes, you're right; apparently my previous statement was too hasty -- at least partially. Balabhadra's Horaratna (a 17th century work, but based on older sources) mentions that 'some' use tropical calculations to determine the ayanas, but that this should not be done for ordinary purposes, such as determining auspicious times. Here, Makara/Karka sankranti is used instead. Obviously this is a survival from the time when these sankrantis really did coincide with the solstices. Best regards, Martin Gansten From bvi at AFN.ORG Sat Jan 23 22:38:46 1999 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 17:38:46 -0500 Subject: Wooden Structure at Patna (Pataliputra) Message-ID: <161227045582.23782.68079830390994509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Klaus Karttunen for his reply... By the way, what does ABIA stand for in the following: >J.-Ph.Vogel, "The Wooden Walls of PATaliputra", ABIA 3 (for the year >1928), 1930, 16-19. Best wishes, Chris Beetle At 03:45 PM 1/21/99 +0200, you wrote: >On 18 Jan 99 at 17:28, Chris Beetle wrote: > >> A wooden structure was unearthed in Patna (the ancient city of Pataliputra) >> back in the 1920s. Some identified it with a wooden palisade mentioned by >> Megasthenes. Do any of you have more information on the archaeology of this >> site and the wooden structure found there? > >L.A.Waddell, Report on the Excavations at PATaliputra (Patna), the >Palibothra of the Greeks. Calcutta 1903. >J.-Ph.Vogel, "The Wooden Walls of PATaliputra", ABIA 3 (for the year >1928), 1930, 16-19. >Briefly discussed with some further references in my India and the >Hellenistic World, Helsinki 1997, p. 88. > >Regards >Klaus Karttunen > > From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sat Jan 23 16:49:29 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 17:49:29 +0100 Subject: Hindu new years day Message-ID: <161227045572.23782.16048350512831420030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Obviously this is a survival from the time when these sankrantis really did >> coincide with the solstices. > >Is there a source for the last sentence? I would think that >the Sakranti could relate to the declination of the sun at an >intermediate latitude. This isn't clear to me. How would they relate? The ayanas are the northern and southern course of the sun. Irrespective of where you are on the globe, the sun will be observed at the northern tropic at summer solstice (around 21 June), and at the southern tropic at winter solstice (around 21 December). These dates would not alter depending on your location (though of course the terms 'summer' and 'winter' are so dependent), nor would they change with time. The sankrantis, however, do change; in Balabhadra's time, they would have taken place some 5 days earlier than today, owing to precession (ayanamsha). Best regards, Martin Gansten From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sat Jan 23 19:44:00 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 20:44:00 +0100 Subject: Hindu new years day Message-ID: <161227045578.23782.6300084144949704726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I don't know how the hindu astronmers define sakranti. I've never heard of another definition than the ingress of a heavenly body (usually, as here, the sun) into a new zodiacal sign. Does anyone else know? >I would think that the topics as a concept would be new. Tropical calculations were certainly known to Balabhadra, as he refers to them explicitly. In fact, accepting the conservative view that horoscopy and the zodiac entered India from Greece (which in my opinion is questionable, but hardly disprovable), the tropical/sidereal difference ought to have been known to Indian astrologers from the very beginning, as it was known to Greek authors. And in any case it is a simple matter of observation: the very concept of ayanas is based on the observation that the sun travels northward half of the year and southward the other half. The tropics are simply the limits of these northern and southern courses, respectively. In fact, knowledge of the actual solstices and equinoxes does not require as sophisticated an astronomy as confusing them with zodiacal ingresses does! >I wish to check. Which text to look? A guess would be the Suryasiddhanta, though I haven't studied it in any detail myself. Best regards, Martin Gansten From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 24 04:42:40 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 23:42:40 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045585.23782.16567488487035691121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/23/99 1:01:23 PM Central Standard Time, mrabe at ARTIC.EDU writes: > Can anyone cite an early Tamil, or > Sanskritic textual reference to the latter practice. The closest I can think of is the story of nantan2Ar, the untouchable saint, in periyapurANam. In the case of nantan2Ar, the purification by fire is done as instructed by ziva. The brahmins of Chidambaram built the fire. When nantan2Ar emerges from the fire he is ritually purified and becomes a brahmin. An analysis of this story is found in "Nandanar the Dalit Martyr: A Historical Reconstruction of His Times" (1990) by S. Manickam. Regards S. Palaniappan From ellraven at WXS.NL Sun Jan 24 01:24:18 1999 From: ellraven at WXS.NL (Raven, E.M.) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 02:24:18 +0100 Subject: Wooden Structure at Patna (Pataliputra) Message-ID: <161227045583.23782.16264069093440250695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Chris Beetle and other Indology list members, ABIA stands for the Annual Bibliography of Indian Archaeology, an annotated bibliography for the archaeology and art history of South and Southeast Asia (at the time captured under the term `Greater India'). It was published under the guidance of Prof. Jean Philippe Vogel (and successors) from 1928 onwards at the Kern Institute of Indology in Leiden. 23 volumes appeared, the last one in 1985, and it was generally considered a very valuable research tool for art historians and Indologists alike. In 1996 the ABIA bibliographical work has been revived by the International Institute for Asian Studies in Leiden. It is now called the ABIA South and Southeast Asian Art and Archaeology Index. The ABIA Index now has the format of an annotated bibliographical computerized database which is being created by an international team of art historians and archaeologists for South and Southeast Asia working in Leiden, Colombo, Bangkok, Dharwar, Jakarta, Lahore, Dacca, and Moscow. The general editor is Prof. Karel van Kooij, professor of South Asian art history at the Kern Institute of Indology in Leiden. Annually a printed volume of newly acquired annotated records is distilled from the ABIA Index database and published as a book. The ABIA Index also contains two articles on recent academic themes or recent literature written in languages other than English. ABIA Index 1 has just appeared (december 1998, publishing date 1999) and is available through Kegan Paul International. It contains over 1300 annotated and key-word indexed records for recent publications (mostly 1996 and 1997) on the archaeology, art history, material culture, epigraphy, palaeography, numismatics and sigillography of South and Southeast Asia. In the course of 1999 the database will go on line. Ellen Raven Coordinating editor for South Asia ABIA Index IIAS, Leiden (e-mail: abiaraven at rullet.leidenuniv.nl; fax: 31-71-5274162) From sdhar.b at CYBERHOUSE.ORG Sat Jan 23 21:15:57 1999 From: sdhar.b at CYBERHOUSE.ORG (Shailendra Dhar) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 02:45:57 +0530 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045644.23782.9118569198568467610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is outright shocking that there are attempts at justification of such barbarity. That there is externally sponsored terrorism in India - is a fact but it escapes me how can that provide, someone, satisfaction over the dastardly killing of the missionary. I dont see what J & K terrorism has to to with torching of a missionary and his two little children- and this one has worked for 34 yrs among the lepers in Orissa-lepers whom our society shuns. In any case in J& K, terrorists have killed more muslims than hindus. Muslims who opposed sectarian fanaticism of outsider terrorists. In a society where all religious places are held sacred and all religious men held in reverence there will be nothing but revulsion to such acts. Events of the recent past have clearly shown this. The condemnation has been far too severe and widespread for the comforts of the ideologues of fanaticism. And no-one, no-one whosoever dares to support such acts in India because it is clear to us that the Hindu majority feels shamed and insulted at these attacks. What the Bajrang Dal seeks ..this is not the Hindu ethos we have evolved in - any attempts at transforming this homogenizing and tolerant ethos into a sectarian and violent creed akin to some of of those islamic identities (like in the neighboring Pakistan) is, above all, impossible ..attitudes and values in a traditional and ancient society are a fruition of thousands of years of evolution..no sectarian political attempts can alter that. Sooner these groups realise this the better. Lessons of Babri Masjid episode are far too obvious to everyone- when BJP lost elections in all the states where it was in power prior to the demolition. And that was the reason that a sidelined and shunted Atal Bihari Vajpayee( who had severely criticised the demolition the day after - in my presence ..I am a journalist ) was summoned to reestablish its credential among the so called Hindu vote bank. Criticism of sectarian and communal politics of minorities is one thing and perpetuation of violence against religious identities is quite another. That the hawkish forces have used a tolerant and compassionate Vajpayee-image has always been known to all. And also was clear to all that the Hindu majority identifies itself more with a tolerant and moderate leadership than the adventurists and fanatics. Secularism has never been a slogan in India, it has always been a way of life- religious tolerance again is something inherent to Hindu ethos ..not a matter of judgment or viewpoint. We have more Gods than one can count. Should not one try to understand that this age old world view cant simply be grafted with a hierarchical sectarian outlook just because it suits the political interests of a group and just because in the very short term they can sometimes manipulate the frustrations of semi- urbanised middle classes of india who like in most transitional societies are going though a very difficult time. Such attempts are not only historically misplaced but also outrightly criminal. Sumedh Mungee wrote: > Tragedy, eh ? Well, we Hindus are getting used to it. In case you > haven't noticed, Hindus are being massacred every day. But they don't > get burnt in cars - most of them don't own cars, you see.. > > Here are some pictures for you: > > http://www.kashmir-information.com/Atrocities/ > > Feel free to scroll down the page. Notice that the count of victims is > far more than 3. (Oh, but they aren't Christians) > From sdhar.b at CYBERHOUSE.ORG Sat Jan 23 22:21:41 1999 From: sdhar.b at CYBERHOUSE.ORG (Shailendra Dhar) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 03:51:41 +0530 Subject: matricide Message-ID: <161227045647.23782.1779148533256129691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Does any one have any information on Cult/ritual associated with matricide. I am doing research on Puranic figure Parshuram. Any work related to the psycho analytical interpretation of the cult of matricide??? I will thankful if anyone can help. thanks From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 24 13:15:31 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 05:15:31 -0800 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045587.23782.18420259983799691684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Can anyone cite an early Tamil, or >> Sanskritic textual reference to the latter practice. N. Subrahmanian, Self-immolation in Tamil society is a good essay. Probably, Ms. Mary Storm can say more on voluntary suicides in Dravidian societies using art history. Kalingattup Parani, of Kulottunga Chozan I, 11th century AD, says people voluntarily cut heads and submitted to Goddess Durga/KoRRavai. In fact, the Lotus sutra chapter on BhaiSaajyarAja: "He lives in the time of a Buddha, whose preaching fills Him with such adoring gratitude that He can render adequate thanks only by burning His own body on a pyre. The story is filled with fantastic details. He is said to have burned for 1200 years ... The Bodhisattva, filled with grief, cremated His Lord's remains, collected the relics and divided them in 84000 urns, ...Then as a final offering to the relics He set fire to His own arms .." (p.206, A. C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhist art in China). This self-immolation theme, along with three others present throughout the history in Dravidian South, shows that the Lotus sutra was written in the South. (Are there any works showing the origin of Lotus sutra?) Self-immolation, self-mutilation in kalingattup paraNi and contemporary piercings in Murukan temples, people setting themselves on fire for MGR, so on can be found in the South even today. Much like Japanese businessmen after losing money commiting suicides. Is it called 'hirakari'? To save family honor. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 24 13:20:58 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 05:20:58 -0800 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045588.23782.8354297341649228019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Head offerings to Goddess Durga occurs in CilappatikAram (4-5th century AD). Fire walkings occur in Draupati Amman temples all over the world wherever South Indians settled down. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 24 16:23:02 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 08:23:02 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227045592.23782.8649824796328518279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. D. V. N. Sarma Greetings from N. Ganesan. In your estimate, how many centuries separate Bhartrhari' Vaakyapadiiya composition and BELarAja's tIkA? Is the difference between VP and Tika six or eight centuries? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sun Jan 24 17:16:21 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 11:16:21 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045596.23782.6148403106585388474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> After thanks to S. Paliniappan and N. Ganesan for their citations, I'm forced by the logic of my own arguments to note the following tradegy in this morning's news: January 23, 1999 Three Burned to Death in India Filed at 10:09 p.m. EST By The Associated Press [http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/i/AP-India-Australians-Killed.html] Bajarang Dal members burn to death an Australian missionary and his two sons, ages 8 and 10, after 34 years of working with lepers in Eastern India. Forget about Sita's ordeal, this is more reminiscent of Hanuman's burning Lanka. The indological links have been anticipated by Sheldon Pollock, among other places in his article written in response to the Ram-janam-bhumi violence: Pollock, Sheldon I. "Ra-ma-yan?a and Political Imagination in India," Journal of Asian Studies 52:2 (May 1993), pp.261-297 From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sun Jan 24 16:42:15 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 11:42:15 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990124204713.0085f260@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045594.23782.18440141676325304455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe this discussion of 'parvata' = 'zriiparvata' has been most interesting. Are there any similar inscriptional or literary references that take us closer to Bhart.rhari's date (appr. 5th century A.D.)? The reference to 'parvata' combined with the reference to 'daak.si.naatye.su granthamaatre ...' makes the zriiparvata the best candidate. The question is are there other contemporary references to zriiparvata by the term parvata. Madhav Deshpande On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > PARVATA-2 > > I need not mention that zrIsailam is a great zaivate > center. In "zivAnandalahari" of Adisankara the only kSEtra > that is mentioned by name is zrIsaila. The slokAs are the ones > starting with "sandhyArambha" and "bhRGgIcchAnatanOtkataH". > Perhaps he has composed it in zrIsailam. KaJci PeriyavAl > is of the view that Adisankara did tapasya there. > > In common people the usage without the honorific "zrI" > > 1. Even today people in the neighbourhood of zrIparvata call it > as "parvata" only. > > 2. In the telugu country even today people are named as "parvatAlu", > where "lu" simply indicates plural. > > 3. These practices are there even earlier can be seen from the > following. > > i) In the 12 th century the great zaivate preacher > mallikhArjuna paNDitArAdhya wrote a composition on > zrisailaM by the name "parvata gadya". > ^^^^^^^ > ii) pAlakuriki sOmanAtha in his biography of mallikhArjuna > paNDitArAdhya i.e., "paNDitArAdhya caritra" names the > chapter pertaining to zrIsailam simply as "parvata prakaraNa". > ^^^^^^^ > He belongs to the 13th century. > > iii) The ruler of rajahmundry in the same period has the name > "parvata mallu". > ^^^^^^^ > > iv) An inscription in telugu of the latter half of 14th century > obtained in zrIsailaM concerning the steps carved from kriSNA > river says > > "... yadagaMga parvatamu sObhanAlu sEyiMcina puNyamu..." > ^^^^^^^^^ Epigraphia Andhrica vol.1 > > v) An inscription of virUpAkSarAya of vijayanagar of 1465-66 A.D. > > "...zrIman parvata mallikhArjunamahAdEvasya......... > ^^^^^^^ EI vol XV, p.20. > Here srIman is for mallikharjuna and not > for parvata. > > vi) A telugu inscription of 1525 A.D. > > "... parvatabhaktuni kumAruNDu cinavIrAbhaktuMdunnU..." > ^^^^^^^ SII, vol 16, p.92 > Inscription 77, line 153 > Here "parvatabhaktudu" is the name of a person. > > vii) A telugu inscription of 1545 A.D. > > ".....anaMtaya(gAru) paravatayagAru dAravOsi iccina..." > ^^^^^^^^ SII, vol 16, p.164 > Inscription 156, line 14 > "paravataya" is the name of a person. > > One would like to see even earlier inscriptions. But all the inscriptions > in zrIsailam are from 14th century, the time of pratAparudra of kAkatIya > dynasty. It appears that renovation done to the temple at his time has > destroyed the earlier inscriptions. > > "paNdithArAdhya caritra" itself gives a mythological story for the > name parvata. The great devotee zilAda had three sons. The eldest is > nandikEswara who became the vehical of Lord ziva by his tapasya. The > second one is "parvata". He also did tapas and asked lord ziva as a boon > to reside always on his head . So he became the mountain and Lord ziva > resided oon him. > > We are not interested in the veracity of this mythological story which > is good or as bad as that of any mythological story. The point to note > here is that the name of the person is "parvata" and not zrIparvata. > Thus the proper name of person corresponds to the proper name of the > mountain. > > This shows that along with zrIparvata (used for formal occassions) > simply "parvata" meant zrIparvata. > - to be continued > > regards, > > sarma. > From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Sun Jan 24 20:12:59 1999 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 14:12:59 -0600 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045602.23782.1294205744656990079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Rabe writes: > After thanks to S. Paliniappan and N. Ganesan for their citations, I'm > forced by the logic of my own > arguments to note the following tradegy in this morning's news: > > January 23, 1999 > Three Burned to Death in India > Filed at 10:09 p.m. EST > By The Associated Press > [http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/i/AP-India-Australians-Killed.html] > > Bajarang Dal members burn to death an Australian missionary and his two > sons, ages 8 and 10, after 34 years of working with lepers in Eastern > India. Forget about Sita's ordeal, this is more reminiscent of Hanuman's > burning Lanka. The indological links have been anticipated by Sheldon > Pollock, among other places in his article written in response to the > Ram-janam-bhumi violence: > > Pollock, Sheldon I. "Ra-ma-yan?a and Political Imagination in > India," Journal of Asian Studies 52:2 (May 1993), pp.261-297 Tragedy, eh ? Well, we Hindus are getting used to it. In case you haven't noticed, Hindus are being massacred every day. But they don't get burnt in cars - most of them don't own cars, you see.. Here are some pictures for you: http://www.kashmir-information.com/Atrocities/ Feel free to scroll down the page. Notice that the count of victims is far more than 3. (Oh, but they aren't Christians) For comprehensive information about this real tragedy, check out: http://www.kashmir-information.com/ Any time you want to know about real tragedies, let me know. Welcome to the real world of the Hindus. There's still a billion of us alive, you know.. ~sumedh From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Sun Jan 24 19:21:37 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 14:21:37 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045600.23782.6516514409426583372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Micheal Rabe wrote : After thanks to S. Paliniappan and N. Ganesan for their citations, I'm forced by the logic of my own arguments to note the following tradegy in this morning's news: January 23, 1999 Three Burned to Death in India Filed at 10:09 p.m. EST By The Associated Press [http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/i/AP-India-Australians-Killed.html] Bajarang Dal members burn to death an Australian missionary and his two sons, ages 8 and 10, after 34 years of working with lepers in Eastern India. Forget about Sita's ordeal, this is more reminiscent of Hanuman's burning Lanka. The indological links have been anticipated by Sheldon Pollock, among other places in his article written in response to the Ram-janam-bhumi violence: Pollock, Sheldon I. "Ra-ma-yan?a and Political Imagination in India," Journal of Asian Studies 52:2 (May 1993), pp.261-297 ----------------------- Why the hell are you spreading this crap ? Who asked you to post this ? Should I start posting every time a Hindu temple is burned or destroyed ? And so far, there has been no proof of any involvement of the Bajrang Dal in this incident although some BD activists were arrested. Below, I am posting a press release by Shri Praveenbhai Togadia, International Secretary of the VHP. You might claim that you are only reporting what you read. Well, I'd say, read the Times of India or some other INDIAN paper, most are available online. There had been no proof of any VHP-Bajrang Dal involvement. Also, here is the first paragraph of the AP report that Michael has twisted to say "Bajrang Dal members burn..." Ashish __________________________ Three Burned to Death in India Filed at 10:09 p.m. EST By The Associated Press NEW DELHI, India (AP) -- Members of a radical group burned to death an Australian missionary and his two sons as they slept in a jeep in eastern India on Saturday, police said, in the first deaths in a recent spate of religious violence. [...] Where does it say Bajrang Dal burned the three ? ================================ Dr Pravinbhai Togadia, General Secretary of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), today severely condemned the dastardly killing of the Australian missionary and his two children in Orissa's Kaojhar district and denied that the VHP or the Bajrang Dal had anything to do with it. Offering condolence to the widow of the missionary, Fr Graham Stewart Staines, and expressing shock over the incident, particularly the killing of the two children, Dr Togadia said that the Hindu ethos is essentially against settlement of dispute by violence. "We believe in Sanskar which means settling disputes through love, persuasion and debate," he remarked. Welcoming the judicial probe into the incident ordered by the Orissa Government, he described as "deep rooted conspiracy" attempts to drag the VHP and the Bajrang Dal in the killing. "It is an attempt to defame the Hindu society as a whole," he said, and demanded that the guilty should be brought to book as quickly as possible. Regarding on Dara Singh, who is reportedly involved in the incident, he said, "We have inquired through our channels and there is no one by the name of Dara Singh who is even remotely associated with the Bajrang Dal in Uttar Pradesh. Dr Togadia dubbed as "a new fashion" on the part of the VHP's rivals and politicians to drag the organisation's name in such incidents to save their own skin. "It seems that for these people the cheapest scapegoat for covering their own lapses today is the Bajrang Dal," he quipped. Dr Togadia said of late there has been a lot of resentment amongst the Vanvasis across the country against organised conversion by the Christian missionaries inn the name of service, which the Vanvasis think is resulting in the erosion of their ancient and rich culture. Adding further he said as awareness spreads amongst the Vanvasis, their reaction to conversion is only natural, but it should manifest itself in a peaceful and democratic manner in accordance with the cultural ethos of Bharat. ======================================================================= =============================================== From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 25 01:54:57 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 17:54:57 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227045609.23782.17445458858411951654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there any information available on the place of bELarAja/hElarAja, the author of TIkA on VP? Is it present day's Andhra/Karnataka region? Best regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sdhar.b at CYBERHOUSE.ORG Sun Jan 24 13:41:57 1999 From: sdhar.b at CYBERHOUSE.ORG (Shailendra Dhar) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 19:11:57 +0530 Subject: maNipravALa transliteration [was SV: creation of human kind] Message-ID: <161227045685.23782.9332897373222336557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> the suggested link returns this ................................................ Page Not Found The Server [ourworld.compuserve.com] was unable to find the following page: Page [Default] User [trdcd07.htm] Category [homepages] ......................................... could you please sugget an alternative thanks Anthony P Stone wrote: > On Jan 22, 1999, Mani Varadarajan wrote: > > A question on transliteration standards: > > . . > >This poses a problem when transliterating maNipravALa texts, such > >as the commentaries of the Sri Vaishnava acharyas, which contain > >Tamil and Sanskrit in varying equal quantities, depending on the author. > >Some problem areas are vocalic r, vocalic l, and the sibilants. > > > >Is there a suggested transliteration scheme? > > At http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/trdcd07.htm there is a draft > proposal for a 7-bit scheme covering Devanagari, Tamil and several other > scripts. It is still under discussion. Eventually it is hoped there > will be an international standard for transliteration both with diacritics > and in 7-bit form. > > Tony Stone > From ramakris at EROLS.COM Mon Jan 25 01:19:11 1999 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 20:19:11 -0500 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti story Message-ID: <161227045606.23782.15928695412502623024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > Since I am on travel, can you please check for me from > the article: > 1) whether Dakshinamurthy form is mentioned in J. Bruce > Long's paper? > 2) Lord 'Siva teaching under a banyan tree - does it occur > anywhere? > 3) 'Siva teaching grammar. > > Appreciations to you for this help. [interesting verses from cilapattikAram snipped] Answers: 1. Yes, the form is mentioned. This is basically ennumeration of the forms from Gopinatha Rao's book. I had given this reference earlier also. 2. Yes to question 2 also. All forms of Dakshinamurti are mentioned as seated under a banyan tree. 3. Yes to question 3. He recounts the legend of Panini getting the sUtra-s from shiva. He also mentions mahAbhArata 13.17,83f which supposedly addresses him as the originator of veda-s etc, which are higher than grammar. Two things I forgot to mention in my previous post: 1. sUta sa.nhitA. This text has references to DakshinAmUrti. V. Raghavan thinks this text was written in the 800-900 CE. Dasgupta places it earlier, around 500 CE (I think). 2. References in Kashmir Saivism: The most famous devotional songs of utpaladeva (ca 900-950) do not mention DakshiNAmUrti. He calls shiva as guru once, but does not use this specific name. See "Shaiva Devotional Songs of Kashmir", C. Rhodes Bailly, SUNY Press, 1987. However, MadhurAja Yogin, a pupil of abhinavagupta compares the latter with DakshiNAmUrti in his dhyAnashlokaH. There isn't any description of DakshiNAmUrti though. He just calls abhinavagupta an incarnation of dakshiNAmUrti. See "The Triadic Heart of Siva", P. E. Muller-Ortega, page 46, SUNY Press, 1989. BTW, by around 800-900AD this form of Siva was accepted by various schools, shaiva, advaita, and also vIra-shaiva, with each giving their own interpretations of Dakshinamurti's silence, the objects in his hand, etc :-). You might have noticed a stanza on Dakshinamurti by Paranjoti Munivar in all Siva temples. At least, I have seen it in every Siva temple I visited. I forget the verse now, but it has a verse which goes something like collAmar colli, iruntatai irunta paDi kATTi .... collAmar colli, ofcourse referring to the "silence" of Dakshinamurti. Rama From langstonrob at JUNO.COM Mon Jan 25 01:47:07 1999 From: langstonrob at JUNO.COM (robert b langston) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 20:47:07 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045607.23782.17522171812861360592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Any time you want to know about real tragedies, let me know....Welcome to the real world of the Hindus. There's still a billion of us alive, you know....~sumedh I would hope that the references to current events submitted to this indology list is in effect a sincere calling to shed light on these and other tragedies that indology subscribers could best accomplish rather than stand on its own as some sort of invective, or provoke sardonic responses regardless of the very real anger and pain that such a response could very likely be generated from............. Is it possible that indological investigation can provide clues to providing a context that these tragedies can be understood within and subsequently avoided- rather than quantatatively compared against another, whether these tragedies are perpetrated against, or by for that matter, Hindus, Christians, or Moslems? Respectfully, Robert From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Jan 24 15:47:13 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 20:47:13 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227045590.23782.14102349171636956055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> PARVATA-2 I need not mention that zrIsailam is a great zaivate center. In "zivAnandalahari" of Adisankara the only kSEtra that is mentioned by name is zrIsaila. The slokAs are the ones starting with "sandhyArambha" and "bhRGgIcchAnatanOtkataH". Perhaps he has composed it in zrIsailam. KaJci PeriyavAl is of the view that Adisankara did tapasya there. In common people the usage without the honorific "zrI" 1. Even today people in the neighbourhood of zrIparvata call it as "parvata" only. 2. In the telugu country even today people are named as "parvatAlu", where "lu" simply indicates plural. 3. These practices are there even earlier can be seen from the following. i) In the 12 th century the great zaivate preacher mallikhArjuna paNDitArAdhya wrote a composition on zrisailaM by the name "parvata gadya". ^^^^^^^ ii) pAlakuriki sOmanAtha in his biography of mallikhArjuna paNDitArAdhya i.e., "paNDitArAdhya caritra" names the chapter pertaining to zrIsailam simply as "parvata prakaraNa". ^^^^^^^ He belongs to the 13th century. iii) The ruler of rajahmundry in the same period has the name "parvata mallu". ^^^^^^^ iv) An inscription in telugu of the latter half of 14th century obtained in zrIsailaM concerning the steps carved from kriSNA river says "... yadagaMga parvatamu sObhanAlu sEyiMcina puNyamu..." ^^^^^^^^^ Epigraphia Andhrica vol.1 v) An inscription of virUpAkSarAya of vijayanagar of 1465-66 A.D. "...zrIman parvata mallikhArjunamahAdEvasya......... ^^^^^^^ EI vol XV, p.20. Here srIman is for mallikharjuna and not for parvata. vi) A telugu inscription of 1525 A.D. "... parvatabhaktuni kumAruNDu cinavIrAbhaktuMdunnU..." ^^^^^^^ SII, vol 16, p.92 Inscription 77, line 153 Here "parvatabhaktudu" is the name of a person. vii) A telugu inscription of 1545 A.D. ".....anaMtaya(gAru) paravatayagAru dAravOsi iccina..." ^^^^^^^^ SII, vol 16, p.164 Inscription 156, line 14 "paravataya" is the name of a person. One would like to see even earlier inscriptions. But all the inscriptions in zrIsailam are from 14th century, the time of pratAparudra of kAkatIya dynasty. It appears that renovation done to the temple at his time has destroyed the earlier inscriptions. "paNdithArAdhya caritra" itself gives a mythological story for the name parvata. The great devotee zilAda had three sons. The eldest is nandikEswara who became the vehical of Lord ziva by his tapasya. The second one is "parvata". He also did tapas and asked lord ziva as a boon to reside always on his head . So he became the mountain and Lord ziva resided oon him. We are not interested in the veracity of this mythological story which is good or as bad as that of any mythological story. The point to note here is that the name of the person is "parvata" and not zrIparvata. Thus the proper name of person corresponds to the proper name of the mountain. This shows that along with zrIparvata (used for formal occassions) simply "parvata" meant zrIparvata. - to be continued regards, sarma. From umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA Mon Jan 25 03:47:27 1999 From: umhardy at CC.UMANITOBA.CA (Kristen Hardy) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 21:47:27 -0600 Subject: tenure track academic positions in Canada Message-ID: <161227045611.23782.16844836639273374603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ****************************************************************************** ** The Department of Religion The University of Manitoba Tenure Track Position The Department of Religion at The University of Manitoba is pleased to invite applications for *two* full-time tenure track appointments at the rank of Assistant Professor which are subject to final budgetary approval. The appointments will begin on July 1, 1999 or soon thereafter. The areas of specialization are: Hinduism/World Religion and Modern Christianity/Religion and Culture. The successful candidates must have a Ph. D. by the commencement of the appointment. The successful candidate for the Hinduism/World Religion position must have research specialization and record of publications in Hinduism and with demonstrated teaching competence in Hinduism and World Religions. The candidate will be expected to teach general survey courses on World Religions at the introductory undergraduate level, to offer specialized courses in Hinduism and Comparative Religion at the upper undergraduate and graduate levels, and to advise M.A. and Ph.D. students writing their theses in this area. Knowledge of relevant Indian languages is essential. Teaching and research competence in additional areas, such as Indian Art, Science and Religion, and New Religions, will enhance the strength of the application. The successful candidate for the Modern Christianity/Religion and Culture position must have a research specialization and record of publications in Modern Christian thought (post-Reformation to the present), preferably including Religion in Canada and American Religion, and with demonstrated teaching competence in the field. The candidate will be expected to teach general survey courses at the introductory undergraduate level, to offer specialized courses in major modern religious thinkers and movements at the upper undergraduate and graduate levels, and to advise M.A. and Ph. D. students writing their theses in the area of modern Christian thought. Knowledge of modern scholarly languages is essential. In addition, the candidate should be competent to teach in one or more of the following areas: Hermeneutics/Critical Theory, Women in the Western Religious Tradition, Contemporary Religious Movements. The Department of Religion at The University of Manitoba offers undergraduate Majors and Honors, M.A. and Ph.D. programs. Normal teaching load is 15 Credit Hours per week. The 1999-2000 salary range for this position is $40,868 - $48,500. Salary will be commensurate with experience and qualifications. The University of Manitoba encourages applications from qualified women and men, including members of visible minorities, aboriginal peoples, and persons with disabilities. Women are particularly encouraged to apply. In accordance with Canadian Immigration requirements, this advertisement is directed to Canadian citizens and permanent residents. Application, curriculum vitae and three letters of reference should be sent to Dr. Dawne McCance, Head, Department of Religion, 327 Fletcher Argue, The University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, R3T 2N2. Closing date for receipt of applications and letters of reference in 19 February, 1999. ****************************************************************************** * (Please direct any additional inquiries about this advertisement/position to the Head of the Department of Religion, Dr. Dawne McCance, mccance at ms.uamnitoba.ca.) From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Jan 24 19:35:17 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 00:35:17 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045598.23782.9389224393488455512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I cannot say definitely whether there are or there are not because I am not a professional. But I have not come across any in the contemporary period. This is the period in which viSNukuNDins were ruling the region under question. There are a number of zAsanAs by viSNUkuNDins. An inscription is a formal document and it will be unthinkable to refer to the abode ones favourite deity with out the honorific "zrI". Therefore they used "zrIparvata" in their zAsanAs. For example dIptyA diGmaNDalaM vyAptaM yasya bAlArkatEjasaH| satyAzrayasuta zzrIman sa jayatyuttamAzrayaH || svasti bhagavacchrIparvatasvAmi pAdAnudhyAtAvApta prajAparipAlanAdhikArANAM brahmatEjObhRtAM viSNuvikramanayasampadAM viSNukunDInAM SaDAbhijJa prAtihArya darZanAnugrahajanita sugatazAsanAbhiprasAdasya vibudhabhavanapratispardhi zObhAsamudayAnEka mahAvihAra pratiSTHApanadhigatA- nanta brahmapuNya saMbhArasya.... In the above zrIparvatasvAmi can be buddha, skanda or ziva of nAgArjunakoMDa or mallikhArjuna of zrizaila. >?From "SaDabhijJa" onwards the reference seems to be to buddha. The reason for the informality in the zAsanAs of 12th century onwards is perhaps due to the God coming closer to people and being treated more intimately due to the bhakti movement of vIrazaiva and ArAdhyazaiva. They were adressing ziva as "you fellow". regards, sarma. At 11:42 AM 1/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >I believe this discussion of 'parvata' = 'zriiparvata' has been most >interesting. Are there any similar inscriptional or literary references >that take us closer to Bhart.rhari's date (appr. 5th century A.D.)? The >reference to 'parvata' combined with the reference to 'daak.si.naatye.su >granthamaatre ...' makes the zriiparvata the best candidate. The question >is are there other contemporary references to zriiparvata by the term >parvata. > Madhav Deshpande > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 25 00:50:51 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 00:50:51 +0000 Subject: Hindi / Urdu job at Cornell (fwd) Message-ID: <161227045604.23782.517957988361936002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:25:27 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Minkowski Subject: Hindi / Urdu job at Cornell The Department of Modern Languages invites applications for a full-time senior lecturer position to teach beginning, intermediate and advanced language courses in Hindi/Urdu. Renewable non-tenure-track appointment. Initial contract for a two-year probationary period, after which the successful candidate will be reviewed for a non-probationary 5-year renewable contract. Minimum qualifications: Masters degree or equivalent in Hindi-Urdu language/literature/culture, a very high level of proficiency in Hindi/Urdu and English, significant language teaching experience, familiarity with the latest teaching methodologies, including technology related pedagogy. Salary competitive. Position begins August 1999. Send letters of application, CV and three letters of recommendation to Professor James Gair, chair of search committee, Department of Modern Languages, 203 Morrill Hall. Applications received by March 30 will be ensured full consideration; consideration of applications will continue until position is filled. Cornell is an Affirmative Action / Equal Opportunity Employer. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 25 13:32:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 05:32:07 -0800 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti story Message-ID: <161227045622.23782.18088424951359793973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Ramakrishnan. This is the song you are looking for. kal Alin2 puTai amarntu, nAl maRai, ARu agkam mutal kaRRa kELvi vallArkaL nAlvarukkum, - vAkku iRanta pUraNamAy, maRaikku appAlAy, ellAmAy, allatumAy irunta atan2ai irunta paTi iruntu kATTic, collAmal con2n2avarai nin2aiyAmal nin2aintu pavat toTakkai velvAm. (from TiruviLaiyATal puRANam of ParaJcOti mun2ivar) Best regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jan 25 12:15:29 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 07:15:29 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: <003001be1860$8c8e0fc0$14c3a7d1@win98> Message-ID: <161227045616.23782.196372350610082298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While this is not an appropriate forum to discuss, I wish to make one comment. I can imagine how a western Indologist could relate more to the violence against the Australian missionary person than other atrocities against Hindu or other communities. I would get concerned if a person of Indian origin gets shot and killed in the US while I may not notice huge killings reported in newspapers every day. It has now been reported that the episode of the death of the missionary resulted from a feud between two tribal groups in the area. Apparently there was inciting from external elements. The law and order in certain parts of India do not seem to be functioning with discipline. People have to be careful in entering these pockets. Tempers can flare very quick for some cultures. We had once camped over the hills when I was in High School. We didn't know that there was a santhal village nearby. When we were returning we were hounded by people with bows and arrows and we had to speed up to escape. Later on we learned that we have to take permission from the santhal chief even if we stayed overnight in the forest bungalow. Tribals believe that we defile their virgin land by digging and creating permanent structures. While they may have a point there, they don't seem to have any intermediate justice. Bijoy Misra On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Stephen wrote: > Tragedy, eh ? Well, we Hindus are getting used to it. In case you > haven't noticed, Hindus are being massacred every day. But they don't > get burnt in cars - most of them don't own cars, you see.. > > Here are some pictures for you: > > http://www.kashmir-information.com/Atrocities/ > > > Sumedh, > > Your remark sounds rather flippant - like you don't care about what happened > to that Australian missionary and his family, I hope that is not the case. I > know the tragedies of Kashmir, but Hindus getting killed in Kashmir, does > not justify hindus killing Christians elsewhere in the country. We as > humans, should fight against both atrocities. > > Terrorists also burnt many churches in Kashmir. > > Sujatha > From headlines at indiaworld.co.in Mon Jan 25 10:19:57 1999 From: headlines at indiaworld.co.in (An IndiaWorld Information Service) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 15:49:57 +0530 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227045620.23782.15115174290947930250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Australia expresses shock, sends official to Orissa 49 arrested for killing missionary and sons President Narayanan issued a statement saying that the barbaric killings "belonged to the world's inventory of black deeds." The leader of the mob which killed Staines and his two young sons is said to be Rabindra Kumar Pal alias `Dara Singh'. He is absconding. From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jan 25 13:16:18 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 08:16:18 -0500 Subject: news of follow up on Australian killings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045618.23782.5266397386800145675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From partha at CAPITAL.NET Mon Jan 25 14:00:52 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 09:00:52 -0500 Subject: Here is an official news regarding the Orissa killing In-Reply-To: <01BE47A4.DB408580.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227045624.23782.601448554142049184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am posting this news here in response to recent queries made in this list. Note: Asterisks used in the article are mine. -PB _________ Missionary, sons set afire BHUBANESWAR, Jan 23: The campaign against Christians, so far largely limited to Gujarat, took an ominous turn with an Australian missionary and his two sons being torched to death in Keonjhar district early this morning. Based in Baripada since 1965, Graham Stewart Staines, 58, ran a leprosy hospital and was the secretary and treasurer of the Evangelical Missionaries Society in Mayurbhanj. Staines was sleeping in his jeep with his two sons, nine-year-old Philip and seven-year-old Timothy, when a group of 100 people allegedly poured petrol and set the vehicle ablaze. The incident occurred in Manoharpur under the Anandpur police station. According to reports from Baripada, another Australian, Gilbert Venge, and a lecturer, Rajendra Swain, who accompanied Steins to Manoharpur, escaped as they were sleeping inside the village church. The attackers spared the church. *** Subhas Chouhan, convenor of the state unit of Hindu Jagaran Samukhya, alleged that Staines was killed because he was ``proselytising.'' Sayingthat people may have killed him in a ``fit of rage,'' Chouhan said that the issue should not be communalised. *** (Note: Hindu Jagaran and other such outfits are offshoots of RSS/VHP. Bajrang Dal is the youth wing of VHP. -- PB). Janata Dal president Ashok Das has blamed the Bajrang Dal and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad for the incident. He also criticised prime minister A B Vajpayee for giving a call for a national debate on conversions. The incident has sent shockwaves through the Government and the Congress party. While no official word came from either, both the Home Ministry and the Congress high command are keeping a close tab. Home Ministry sources said a report from the Orissa Government would be sought. Vajpayee has also been alerted about the incident. Meanwhile, Australian High Commission officials told The Indian Express in New Delhi that they were still awaiting details. A consular official is planning to fly to Calcutta en route to Orissa tomorrow while the High Commissioner has spoken to Home Secretary B P Singh about the incident. This is the second incident within the last two months when Christians have been killed in Orissa. Two undertrial prisoners, both Christian, were dragged out from prison by a tribal mob and burnt to death in front of the police at R. Udaygiri on December 8. Besides, 111 houses belonging to the community were also burnt to ashes. Sources said some villagers tried to prevent the mob from setting Staines's jeep ablaze but were chased away. It was regular for Staines to spend the night in the jeep whenever he was on tour, sources said. Staines, described by local residents as ``popular and affable'' was well known for his charity work. He had gone to Monaharpur yesterday afternoon to attend a camp organised by the local church. He is survived by his wife Glades and daughter Easter, 13, both of whom were at Baripada. Glades said she was ``greatly shocked but not angry.'' She is believed to have told the Australian High Commission that she and her daughter ``are not stranded in Baripada and the locals are sympathetic.'' The funeral is scheduled for tomorrow. Prayer halls attacked A group of about 25 persons attacked two prayer halls in tribal-dominated Doswada village under Songadh rural police station in Surat on Friday evening. According to the police, the miscreants destroyed furniture, musical instruments and walls of the prayer halls managed by the governing bodies of the Indian National Gospel Churches Federation and Good News Ministries Churches of Northern India for the last one decade. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 25 17:07:14 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 09:07:14 -0800 Subject: Takkai Ramayanam (Was: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_) Message-ID: <161227045637.23782.2740126389433594124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I also read in a book titled "takkai rAmAyaNam" edited by noted archaeologist nAkacAmi that said sometime in the 15th -16th century AD time frame a body guard of a kAGkEyan king of koGku country offered his own head to the local god so that his master, who was without a child for a long time, would beget a child. >>> Hi Chandra, During Nagasamy's days, the first five kANDams of takkai RamaayaNam were printed. The last Canto, Yuddha kANTam consisting of 50% of the Ramayanam, about 1650 songs done around 1590 AD, remains unpublished. Taken together, this takkai R. is the best tribute Tamils paid to Kamban. I have the original two bundles of plam leaves of takkai R. and got them transcribed onto paper by M. K. Raman (s/o Dravida KavibhUsHaNam MuttusAmy Ayyar and a student of U. vE. CA), KambarAman Ramarajan, K. Arunachala Kavundar, V. R. DaivasigAmaNiyAr. It is interesting that Emperuman eulogizes Morur Nallatambi wherever Kamban does it for CaTaiyan. I have written few short notes on takkai R. in Indology. Read them from archives. Morur Kangeyar family sponsored Tamil literary feats for a millennium atleast: 1) Kangeyan Uriccol nighaNTu 2) aDiyArkku nallAr commentary on Cilambu 3) takkai Ramayanam and 4) PaDikkAsar's PaambalangArar varukkak kOvai.... Best regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM Mon Jan 25 19:29:25 1999 From: nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM (Nicholas Bedworth) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 09:29:25 -1000 Subject: Indian calendar-making Message-ID: <161227045640.23782.10184417320321922420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, as a start, look at the Hinduism Today website. They have a very detailed panchang that is downloadable as a pdf document, and they seem to be highly involved in understanding all the calendar systems. Nicholas Bedworth 808-942-5341.... voice 808-942-4396.... fax 808-371-4508.... cell visit http://www.drtungs.com! -----Original Message----- From: Mani Varadarajan To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 9:02 AM Subject: Indian calendar-making >Can someone recommend an exhaustive work on Indian >calendar-making? I am particularly interested in >the interaction between lunar, solar, and sidereal >zodiac-based (nakshatra) calendars, and the relative >importance given to each in the various parts of India. > >In particular, I would like information on which >parts of India use which calendar for marking >daily events, and how their use of this calendar >was reconciled with the Vedic/brahmanic ritual >practices. > >Thanks, >Mani From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jan 25 15:42:19 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 10:42:19 -0500 Subject: SARAI: job posting announcement Message-ID: <161227045627.23782.14341153949600161039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following position announcement is forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the ACADEMIC JOBS section of SARAI. Please contact the posters as indicated below for any further information. David Magier SARAI http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ======================================================= The Department of Modern Languages invites applications for a full-time senior lecturer position to teach beginning, intermediate and advanced language courses in Hindi/Urdu. Renewable non-tenure-track appointment. Initial contract for a two-year probationary period, after which the successful candidate will be reviewed for a non-probationary 5-year renewable contract. Minimum qualifications: Masters degree or equivalent in Hindi-Urdu language/literature/culture, a very high level of proficiency in Hindi/Urdu and English, significant language teaching experience, familiarity with the latest teaching methodologies, including technology related pedagogy. Salary competitive. Position begins August 1999. Send letters of application, CV and three letters of recommendation to Professor James Gair, chair of search committee, Department of Modern Languages, 203 Morrill Hall. Applications received by March 30 will be ensured full consideration; consideration of applications will continue until position is filled. Cornell is an Affirmative Action / Equal Opportunity Employer. From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 25 18:58:02 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 10:58:02 -0800 Subject: Indian calendar-making Message-ID: <161227045638.23782.16180338705970541244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone recommend an exhaustive work on Indian calendar-making? I am particularly interested in the interaction between lunar, solar, and sidereal zodiac-based (nakshatra) calendars, and the relative importance given to each in the various parts of India. In particular, I would like information on which parts of India use which calendar for marking daily events, and how their use of this calendar was reconciled with the Vedic/brahmanic ritual practices. Thanks, Mani From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jan 25 16:12:26 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 11:12:26 -0500 Subject: SARAI: position announcement Message-ID: <161227045629.23782.5182933363416955914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following position announcement on Hinduism/World Religion is being posted to your listserv or mailing list from the ACADEMIC JOBS section of SARAI. Please contact posters directly as below for any further information. David Magier SARAI http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ****************************************************************************** The Department of Religion The University of Manitoba Tenure Track Position The Department of Religion at The University of Manitoba is pleased to invite applications for *two* full-time tenure track appointments at the rank of Assistant Professor which are subject to final budgetary approval. The appointments will begin on July 1, 1999 or soon thereafter. The areas of specialization are: Hinduism/World Religion and Modern Christianity/Religion and Culture. The successful candidates must have a Ph. D. by the commencement of the appointment. The successful candidate for the Hinduism/World Religion position must have research specialization and record of publications in Hinduism and with demonstrated teaching competence in Hinduism and World Religions. The candidate will be expected to teach general survey courses on World Religions at the introductory undergraduate level, to offer specialized courses in Hinduism and Comparative Religion at the upper undergraduate and graduate levels, and to advise M.A. and Ph.D. students writing their theses in this area. Knowledge of relevant Indian languages is essential. Teaching and research competence in additional areas, such as Indian Art, Science and Religion, and New Religions, will enhance the strength of the application. The successful candidate for the Modern Christianity/Religion and Culture position must have a research specialization and record of publications in Modern Christian thought (post-Reformation to the present), preferably including Religion in Canada and American Religion, and with demonstrated teaching competence in the field. The candidate will be expected to teach general survey courses at the introductory undergraduate level, to offer specialized courses in major modern religious thinkers and movements at the upper undergraduate and graduate levels, and to advise M.A. and Ph. D. students writing their theses in the area of modern Christian thought. Knowledge of modern scholarly languages is essential. In addition, the candidate should be competent to teach in one or more of the following areas: Hermeneutics/Critical Theory, Women in the Western Religious Tradition, Contemporary Religious Movements. The Department of Religion at The University of Manitoba offers undergraduate Majors and Honors, M.A. and Ph.D. programs. Normal teaching load is 15 Credit Hours per week. The 1999-2000 salary range for this position is $40,868 - $48,500. Salary will be commensurate with experience and qualifications. The University of Manitoba encourages applications from qualified women and men, including members of visible minorities, aboriginal peoples, and persons with disabilities. Women are particularly encouraged to apply. In accordance with Canadian Immigration requirements, this advertisement is directed to Canadian citizens and permanent residents. Application, curriculum vitae and three letters of reference should be sent to Dr. Dawne McCance, Head, Department of Religion, 327 Fletcher Argue, The University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, R3T 2N2. Closing date for receipt of applications and letters of reference in 19 February, 1999. ****************************************************************************** (Please direct any additional inquiries about this advertisement/position to the Head of the Department of Religion, Dr. Dawne McCance, mccance at ms.uamnitoba.ca.) <---- End Included Message ----> From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon Jan 25 16:20:22 1999 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 11:20:22 -0500 Subject: maNipravALa transliteration [was SV: creation of human kind] Message-ID: <161227045631.23782.8048423693633017663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Jan 22, 1999, Mani Varadarajan wrote: A question on transliteration standards: > . . . >This poses a problem when transliterating maNipravALa texts, such >as the commentaries of the Sri Vaishnava acharyas, which contain >Tamil and Sanskrit in varying equal quantities, depending on the author. > >Some problem areas are vocalic r, vocalic l, and the sibilants. > >Is there a suggested transliteration scheme? At http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/trdcd07.htm there is a draft proposal for a 7-bit scheme covering Devanagari, Tamil and several other scripts. It is still under discussion. Eventually it is hoped there will be an international standard for transliteration both with diacritics and in 7-bit form. Tony Stone Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic scripts. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Jan 25 22:44:20 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 12:44:20 -1000 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045650.23782.11714394048989401232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Sumedh Mungee wrote: > Tragedy, eh ? Well, we Hindus are getting used to it. In case you Yeah, what's all the fuss? We Hindus are merely putting "atithi devo bhava" into practice. We had guests in our country, we despatched our sacred guests to "devaloka". Those two kids, especially, must have had a blast. Literally. Raja. PS: Smart boy, Mungee. Have a banana. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 25 21:00:04 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 13:00:04 -0800 Subject: Kumarila Bhatta's criticism of false etymologies Message-ID: <161227045642.23782.7882761885190563639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< The words you're looking for might be "cor" (rice), "atar" (road),"pAp" (snake), "mAl" (woman) and "vair" (stomach). This is quoted by K. V. Zvelebil in his 'Dravidian Linguistics' (p. xxii fn) with the notes that cor is DEDR 2897, atar is DEDR 3170. "PAp obviously represents DEDR 4085 pAmpu (which according to Burnell, South Indian Palaeography, p. 126) is given in some of the best manuscripts of T. as pAmb. KumArila's mAl is to be connected either with DEDR 183 (Tamil ammAL) or DEDR 3616 (MalayALam mOL)." >>> Note 1: ------- 'pAppu' as snake figures many times in Tamil literature. We don't have to go to A. C. Burnell for this. Some examples: akanAn2URu: ----------- aka348x06 neTu kaN ATu amai pazuni kaTu tiRal aka348x07 pAppu kaTuppu an2n2a tOppi pazamozi: --------- pAppuk koTiyARkup pAlmEn2iyAn2 pOlat tAkki amaruL talaippeyyAr pOkki vaziyarAy naTTArkku mA tavam ceyvArE kazi vizAt tOL ERRuvAr tEvAram: -------- nITu iLam pozil aNi nelveNey mEviya ATu iLam pAppu acaittIrE ATu iLam pAppu acaittIr umai an2poTu pATu uLam uTaiyavar paNpE 'paappu' occurs commonly in Tamil names denoting 'Siva such as 'pAppaiyan2', 'pAppaNan2' usually translated as nAgabhUSaNa or sarpAlaMkAra. In mOrUr, Salm district, the enshrined 'Siva is named pAppaNiyAr or pAppazakar or pAmbalangArar. A Morur Kangeyan named 'poppaNa kAGkEyan' was the patron of aDiyArkku nallAr who wrote the important commentary on CilappatikAram. Without this commentary, we cannot understand old Tamil music or CilappatikAram today. (poppaNa kAGkEyan2 aLitta cORRuc cerukku allavO tamiz mUn2Rukku urai ceyvittatE! - aDiyArkku nallAr in his foreword (pAyiram)). I believe 'poppu' as snake (pAppu) occurs in some Dravidian languages. What about Kannada or Badaga or Toda or Kota? Is poppu = snake mentioned in DED or DEDR? Thanks for clues. makaL > mAL > Ma. mOL In the same way, pAppu > poppu. ----------------------------------------- Note 2: ------- Like tukaL > tUL, makaL becomes mAL in Tamil. Malayalam uses mOL. See vENmAL (daughter of vEL in sangam texts). makaL > mAL > Ma. mOL Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM Mon Jan 25 23:16:43 1999 From: nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM (Nicholas Bedworth) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 13:16:43 -1000 Subject: Vedic Architecture/Vaastu nagar planning Message-ID: <161227045653.23782.12457794179454052253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like information/referrals to experts in the area of town planning according to traditional vaastu/sthapatya ved principles. We are designing a large community here in Hawaii, and would like to know about resources available in this area. Nicholas Bedworth 808-942-5341.... voice 808-942-4396.... fax 808-371-4508.... cell visit http://www.drtungs.com! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM Tue Jan 26 00:28:31 1999 From: nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM (Nicholas Bedworth) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 14:28:31 -1000 Subject: Indian calendar-making Message-ID: <161227045657.23782.9261013735576864712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Mani: Did you download the panchang itself? I was thinking that the actual calendar might be useful, as opposed to their general statements. Also, the Maharishi Vedic Foundation is now going from full moon to full moon to demarcate the lunar months, which is interesting. Nicholas Bedworth 808-942-5341.... voice 808-942-4396.... fax 808-371-4508.... cell visit http://www.drtungs.com! From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 25 22:40:42 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 14:40:42 -0800 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045649.23782.4672511234460850951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Excerpts from > > Catholic Bishops Conference of India president Archbishop Alan de Lastic > in a Rediff Chat forum: > > [Question:] Reverend Archbishop: Why do you think that there is suddenly > this Hindu anger against Christians in India?=20 > > Archbishop Alan de Lastic (Fri Jan 22 1999 6:26 IST)=20 > It is not correct to state that there is a Hindu anger against = > Christianity. > Therefore, I wish to state that there never was a Hindu anger and > there=20 > never will be such an outburst against Christians because the genuine=20 > and authentic Hindu is very tolerant and peace loving. He is ready to=20 > accept all religions in India. This has been going on for a long > period=20 > of time. This outburst is actually the result of a few fanatical=20 > fundamentalists who claim to be safeguarding the Hindu religion.=20 > > [Question:] Sir, why this sudden attacks on the churches?=20 > > Archbishop Alan de Lastic: > > It is very difficult for me to get into the skin of these people who = > attack > us to know what their motives are. I can just mention a few: This=20 > accusation of conversion of forced conversion is a camouflage. Vested=20 > interests are afraid that Christianity with its movement for > liberation=20 > of people from sin and the effects of sin strikes at the heart of our=20 > Indian society by trying to bring about equality, justice. It tries very > = > > hard to put an end to the caste system which still pervades Indian=20 > society. It tackles the financial mafia or money lenders who charge=20 > exorbitant interest and enslave the victim for life. This is one form=20 > of bonded labour.=20 > > Moreover, most Christians work in rural areas where they try to see=20 > that the tribals and others are not unjustly dispossessed of their=20 > lands by false pretenses.=20 > > Our main thrust is in the field of education where we try to > eradicate=20 > illiteracy. We also concentrate on programmes for holistic medical care. > = > > And finally, we work for the integral human development of people,=20 > especially in the rural area. This is a few of our works and we will=20 > intensify these programmes of authentic love for the poor and = > downtrodden.=20 > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 25 23:19:04 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 15:19:04 -0800 Subject: Indian calendar-making In-Reply-To: <003801be4899$0492ac70$4e455e18@vishnu.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <161227045655.23782.17809509529722408076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nicholas Bedworth wrote: > > Well, as a start, look at the Hinduism Today website. They have a very > detailed panchang that is downloadable as a pdf document, and they seem to > be highly involved in understanding all the calendar systems. Thank you for this reference, but I am sorry to say that the Hinduism Today essay is characteristically long on self-promotion, and short on research and facts. In addition to being more astrological than explanatory, there are also quite a few errors. To cite one example, the author says, "In all [Indian] states the lunar calendar is used for determining the dates of religious festivals..." [p.7] This is not true of many festivals in Tamil Nadu, where the sauramAna-nakshatra calendar is used for the most part. The birth of Krishna, for example, is celebrated by nearly all Tamils on aavaNi-rOhiNi. It is also surprising that Mr. Subramuniyaswami's "Vedic Calendar" uses a lunar cycle that counts months beginning with the full moon day. The Vedic tradition almost universally, as far as I am aware, begins on the prathamA after the new moon. Mani From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Mon Jan 25 22:12:20 1999 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 17:12:20 -0500 Subject: Ayyappan (was Re: Hindu new years day) Message-ID: <161227045645.23782.12048238279252478017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy Misra wrote: > Do people know much about Ayyappa festival in Kerala? > Apparently people see a light on this sankranti day. I waited for list-wide replies. As there were none, I will attempt to sharpen the questions: (1) How far back do the Harihara cycle go? Is it regional or is it found in North Indian Puranas as well? (2) The light is reported to come from a temple in an `unexplored' (! = unmapped?) hill, Ponnambala Medu, to the north-east of Sabari Mala(i). It appears at dusk. This combination is suggestive, but the catch is that it appears as per the sidereal calender. (3) Interestingly, (one version of) the Ayyappan legend makes the last day of Dhanus his birth day. The combination of birth of the hero and light in the east on the start of `uttaraayana' (again ignoring the tropical vs sidereal issue) is intriguing. Are there any analogs in India? (The nearest one I know is the cycle of Mithras, which I still believe to be the origin of the Star of Bethlehem.) -Nath From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Mon Jan 25 09:25:25 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 17:25:25 +0800 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti story In-Reply-To: <36ABC68F.3CC2@erols.com> Message-ID: <161227045613.23782.5996078683323215156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:19 PM 1/24/99 -0500, you wrote: You might have noticed a stanza on Dakshinamurti by Paranjoti >Munivar in all Siva temples. At least, I have seen it in every Siva >temple I visited. I forget the verse now, but it has a verse which goes >something like > >collAmar colli, iruntatai irunta paDi kATTi .... > >collAmar colli, ofcourse referring to the "silence" of Dakshinamurti. > >Rama "collAmaR colli, irundhadhai irundhapadi kAtti......." Its the CinMudra. The "silence" of DakshiNAmUrthi is something else:-) Regards Jayabarathi ============================================= > From mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 26 01:37:05 1999 From: mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 17:37:05 -0800 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ In-Reply-To: <01BE489C.672C3100.achandra@wnmail.att.com> Message-ID: <161227045661.23782.16044691338329433788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashish Chandra, and others, write about > What > the Bajrang Dal seeks ..this is not the Hindu ethos ... At the risk of sounding like a moderator, I please ask that you take this thread elsewhere. It's simply not relevant to INDOLOGY, which is dedicated to discussing *classical* India. Mani From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 26 02:58:38 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 18:58:38 -0800 Subject: maNipravALa transliteration [was SV: creation of human kind] Message-ID: <161227045663.23782.12437918590718653445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Jan 22, 1999, Mani Varadarajan wrote: A question on transliteration standards: > . . . >This poses a problem when transliterating maNipravALa texts, such >as the commentaries of the Sri Vaishnava acharyas, which contain >Tamil and Sanskrit in varying equal quantities, depending on the >author. >Some problem areas are vocalic r, vocalic l, and the sibilants. >Is there a suggested transliteration scheme? I think we can use a mixture of a) Harvard-Kyoto scheme for Sanskrit and b) IITS, U. Cologne, Germany scheme for Tamil together in Maniprvala works. Probably Sanskrit words can be written with a marker - a) within single or double quotes or c) with (Skt.) in front or back of Sanskrit words in manipravala prose or c) another easy way ... The readership of manipravala works is rather small. Best regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Tue Jan 26 00:53:37 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 19:53:37 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045659.23782.2253716439589299879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shailendra Dhar wrote : [...] What the Bajrang Dal seeks ..this is not the Hindu ethos we have evolved in - any attempts at transforming this homogenizing and tolerant ethos into a sectarian and violent creed akin to some of of those islamic identities (like in the neighboring Pakistan) is, above all, impossible ..attitudes and values in a traditional and ancient society are a fruition of thousands of years of evolution..no sectarian political attempts can alter that. Sooner these groups realise this the better. Lessons of Babri Masjid episode are far too obvious to everyone- when BJP lost elections in all the states where it was in power prior to the demolition. And that was the reason that a sidelined and shunted Atal Bihari Vajpayee( who had severely criticised the demolition the day after - in my presence ..I am a journalist ) was summoned to reestablish its credential among the so called Hindu vote bank. Criticism of sectarian and communal politics of minorities is one thing and perpetuation of violence against religious identities is quite another. That the hawkish forces have used a tolerant and compassionate Vajpayee-image has always been known to all. And also was clear to all that the Hindu majority identifies itself more with a tolerant and moderate leadership than the adventurists and fanatics. Secularism has never been a slogan in India, it has always been a way of life- religious tolerance again is something inherent to Hindu ethos ..not a matter of judgment or viewpoint. We have more Gods than one can count. ____________________________________________________________________ AC: I am clearly at a loss as to what caused Shri Dhar to write this monologue. Is it the fact that he got the impression that someone was trying to belittle, or play down, the dastardly act in Orissa ? Even when there is no evidence against all the groups that he has named, the same are now being blamed. I think it serves no Hindu in specific, and no one in general, to condone such brutal acts of violence. ____________________________________________________________________ Should not one try to understand that this age old world view cant simply be grafted with a hierarchical sectarian outlook just because it suits the political interests of a group and just because in the very short term they can sometimes manipulate the frustrations of semi- urbanised middle classes of india who like in most transitional societies are going though a very difficult time. Such attempts are not only historically misplaced but also outrightly criminal. _____________________________________________________________________ Hardly the frustrations of semi-urbanized middle class Sir. More the realization that what has been going on in the country for the past 50 years was rabid minorityism. That is not to say that the minorities benefited from such politics. Rather, the poor man stayed where he was but stayed divided. You well know the politics of MYD(Muslim-Yadav-Dalit) and BDM(Brahmin-Dalit-Muslim). Where was the voice of unity ? The middle classes you have described were more in tune with this realization than reeling from any frustrations, as you have sought to describe. From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jan 26 04:29:25 1999 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 20:29:25 -0800 Subject: [Request] Verses from Jaiminiya Samhita of Samaveda. Message-ID: <161227045665.23782.4769296823842291964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello members, Would any of you have access to a published edition of the Jaiminiya Samhita of the Samaveda? If so, would you be willing to email me the last two suktas of the text (suktas 4.29 and 4.30)? I suppose transliteration would be the best way. Encoding of your choice! Dr. Raghu Vira published the first edition (?) of this samhita under the title "The Samaveda of the Jaiminiyas" in Lahore, India, 1935 (I believe). Our libraries here do not carry this title, or any other copy of the Jaiminiya Samhita. Thank you ver much! Regards, Anshuman Pandey From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jan 26 04:49:24 1999 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 20:49:24 -0800 Subject: [Query] J. A. van Buitenen's "Mahabharata". Message-ID: <161227045667.23782.4902882141000944055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello all, Pardon my recent onslaught of messages... Does anyone happen to know what became of the project started by the late esteemed Dr. van Buitenen to translate the Mahabharata? He was able to complete three of the planned eight volumes. In the preface to the first volumes, Dr. van Buitenen estimated that the final volume would be completed by 1983. However, this date has long since passed. Is this project still active? Have his disciples picked up where he left off? Regards, Anshuman Pandey From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jan 26 09:07:16 1999 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 01:07:16 -0800 Subject: [Query] J. A. van Buitenen's "Mahabharata". In-Reply-To: <199901260854.JAA08042@ktpsp> Message-ID: <161227045672.23782.1450479812997418537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Sreenivas Paruchuri wrote: > > Does anyone happen to know what became of the project started by the > > late esteemed Dr. van Buitenen to translate the Mahabharata? He was able > > Please check: > > http://web.utk.edu/~jftzgrld/MBh1Home.html Excellent. This link had just what I wanted to know. Thanks again. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Tue Jan 26 09:04:09 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 09:04:09 +0000 Subject: [Query] J. A. van Buitenen's "Mahabharata". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045671.23782.16197105549606470082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Anshuman Pandey wrote: > Hello all, > > Pardon my recent onslaught of messages... > > Does anyone happen to know what became of the project started by the > late esteemed Dr. van Buitenen to translate the Mahabharata? He was able > to complete three of the planned eight volumes. In the preface to the > first volumes, Dr. van Buitenen estimated that the final volume would be > completed by 1983. However, this date has long since passed. Is this > project still active? Have his disciples picked up where he left > off? Jim Fitzgerald, David Gitomer, Wendy Doniger et (possibly) al. are continuing the translation -- I believe Fitzgerald is in charge of the project, but I don't know much more than this. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jan 26 09:29:59 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 09:29:59 +0000 Subject: McGill conference announcement: Teaching Buddhism Message-ID: <161227045675.23782.11673603919408905233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Begin Forwarded Message --- Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:41:57 -0400 From: Francis Brassard Subject: Posting Sender: Francis Brassard Reply-To: Francis Brassard ------------------------------------------ Call for Papers ------------ Teaching Buddhism: The State of the Art A conference organized by the NUMATA professorship of McGill University, Montreal, Canada The Faculty of Religious Studies of McGill University is soliciting papers for a conference to be held October 8-9, 1999. Buddhism has been routinely taught in North American colleges and universities for several decades now. Sometimes it is taught in religious studies, and sometimes in area studies (language and culture) contexts. The purpose of this conference is to assess the "state of the discipline." Where has the study of Buddhism been, and where is it going? What is the prognosis? Possible themes that may be considered for the conference include: Classroom teaching and course design Use of texts in the original languages or in translation Course content Use of narrative Traditional and alternative teaching tools - Textbooks - Video and slide presentations - Multimedia - Field trips and participation in religious ceremonies - Meditative experience in the classroom Please note that these are simply suggested themes and are NOT meant to exclude other topics. If you have any questions regarding topics or themes, please contact Dr. Richard Hayes (cxev at musica.mcgill.ca) or Dr. Victor Hori (czvh at musica.mcgill.ca). This conference is open to academics, young scholars and students interested in discussing the future of the field, more precisely, the kind of research that could be done, the kinds of courses that could be taught. Papers are limited to 20 minutes reading time (normally 8-10 double-spaced pages). Please submit a ONE-PAGE PROPOSAL and a BRIEF C.V. by mail, Fax or E-Mail to: Dr. Francis Brassard Conference Organizer Faculty of Religious Studies, McGill University 3520 University Street Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 2A7 Fax: (514) 398-6665 E-Mail: cyfb at musica.mcgill.ca Submissions should be received prior to MARCH 15, 1999 --- End Forwarded Message --- From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Tue Jan 26 08:54:15 1999 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 09:54:15 +0100 Subject: [Query] J. A. van Buitenen's "Mahabharata". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045669.23782.2694827980755924413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Does anyone happen to know what became of the project started by the > late esteemed Dr. van Buitenen to translate the Mahabharata? He was able Please check: http://web.utk.edu/~jftzgrld/MBh1Home.html Regards, --Sreenivas From bvi at AFN.ORG Tue Jan 26 15:57:43 1999 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 10:57:43 -0500 Subject: God-human counsels Message-ID: <161227045689.23782.10877309326012948692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:53 AM 1/22/99 PST, you wrote: >Dr. Ganesan writes: >> What I originally meant was God-to-Human conversations. >> Counsels between humans, mostly men, are rampant in Sanskrit. >> The radical difference in Gita is it is God's counsel to >> a Man which is unknown even after the advent of Gita in >> Hinduism. > >I do not know how you can say this. In post-Gita Hinduism, >God-human counsels are very prominent. The Puranas are >full of them. One need only look at the Bhagavata Purana, >or the (Vaishnava, Saiva, or SAkta) Agamas to see this. >One may argue that this too is the influence of Buddhism, >either through the Gita or directly, but God-human counsels >certainly aren't "unknown". According to the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition, even more recently, about 500 years ago, there was the instruction of Rupa and Sanatana Goswamis by the divine incarnation Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu related in the Sri Caitanya-caritamrta by Krishna das Kaviraj Goswami. The Goswamis were so inspired by Lord Caitanya's inspiration they went on to compile many books on the practice of Krishna-bhakti based on their study of the revealed scriptures. Chris Beetle From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jan 26 11:14:52 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 11:14:52 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[Job_announcement]_New_indology_position_at_W=C3=BCrzburg?= Message-ID: <161227045676.23782.268579380910450418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> PHILOSOPHISCHE FAKULT?T I DER UNIVERSIT?T W?RZBURG (Altertums- und Kulturwissenschaften) 97070 W?rzburg Residenzplatz 2 Tor A Telefon 0931/31-2879 Fax 0931/888-7050 25. Januar 1999 An der Bayerischen Julius-Maximilians-Universit?t W?rzburg, Philosophische Fakult?t I (Altertums- und Kulturwissenschaften), ist ab sofort die Stelle eines Universit?tsprofessors / einer Universit?tsprofessorin im Beamtenverh?ltnis auf Lebenszeit der Bes. Gr. C 4 f?r Indologie zu besetzen. Einstellungsvoraussetzungen sind abgeschlossenes Hochschulstudium, Promotion und Habilitation oder habilitations?quivalente Leistungen sowie p?dagogische Eignung. Bewerber/Bewerberinnen d?rfen das 52. Lebensjahr zum Zeitpunkt der Ernennung nicht vollendet haben. Der Stelleninhaber/Die Stelleninhaberin hat das Fach in Forschung und Lehre besonders hinsichtlich der Moderne zu vertreten. Er/Sie mu? eine neuindische (neuindoarische oder dravidische) Sprache beherrschen und ?ber fundierte Landeserfahrung verf?gen. Besonders erw?nscht ist ein durch Ver?ffentlichungen oder Lehre ausgewiesener Schwerpunkt im Bereich Kulturanthropologie oder Geschichte des modernen indischen Subkontinents. Die Julius-Maximilians-Universit?t strebt eine Erh?hung des Anteils an Frauen in Forschung und Lehre an und bittet deshalb qualifizierte Wissenschaftlerinnen nachdr?cklich um ihre Be werbung. Bewerbungen von Schwerbehinderten werden bei gleicher Eignung bevorzugt ber?cksichtigt. Bewerbungen sind mit den ?blichen Unterlagen (Lebenslauf, Zeugnisse, Urkunden, Schriftenverzeichnis, Liste der gehaltenen Lehreranstaltungen) bis zum 10.4.1999 beim Dekanat der Philosophischen Fakult?t I der Universit?t W?rzburg, Residenzplatz 2, Tor A, 97070 W?rzburg einzureichen. From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Jan 26 12:53:00 1999 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 13:53:00 +0100 Subject: Title of Krishan Chander story Message-ID: <161227045678.23782.10685638067056490710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, In front of me I have a short story in Hindi by Krishan Chander called "saajhe kaa murdaa" (the jointly held corpse?). I would like to find the Urdu version of the story, but don't know the title. The first line of the story begins, "saaRhe caar baje ke kariib jab ki biivii kamre me? caay kaa pyaalaa le kar gaii to us ne bhargav ko apne palang par murdaa paayaa." Is there anyone out there who happens to know the title of the Urdu version? Many thanks, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Jan 26 12:57:31 1999 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 13:57:31 +0100 Subject: Transcription error Message-ID: <161227045683.23782.7802326369427986088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the lost, I apologize, I mis-transcribed the first line in the Krishan Chander story. It should be: "saaRhe caar baje ke kariib jab bhargav kii biivii kamre me? caay kaa pyaalaa le kar gaii to us ne bhargav ko apne palang par murdaa paayaa." With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 27 01:14:51 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 17:14:51 -0800 Subject: madhura subhASiNI of mAyUram Message-ID: <161227045699.23782.14317439357152304739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Tevaram, Parvati in various shrines is named after her 'sweet speech'. Examples: Goddess - Temple site: ---------------------- karumpu amaru mozi maTavAL - kOyil (Chidambaram) kuyil Arum men2 moziyAL - maNaJcEri karumpoTu paTum colin2 maTantai - puRampayam maTa mozi maGkai - vEtikuTi paNNin2 nEr moziyAL - karukAvUr paN taTavu colli - tEvUr yAzan2a mozi umai - viLamar tEn2 mozip pAvai - kOTTUr pAlin2 moziyAL - vAymUr yAzaip pazittan2n2a mozi maGkai - maRaikkATu aJcol aNiyizai - paraGkun2Ru tEn2il poli moziyAL - koTumkun2Ram tEn2 amarum mozi mAtu - koTumuTi iLamkiLLai arivai - acciRupAkkam(Whose speech is as sweet as a parrot) Because of so many parallels, I submit that 'aJcolAL' is the old, original name of the Goddess at Maayuuram. Mistaking it as 'aJcalAL', it was translated as 'abhayAmbA'. Note that Goddess is never described in Tevaram with the function of giving abhaya/anjal. In the French Institute of Pondichery, Tevaram edition T. V. Gopal Iyer has corrected this to be 'aJcalAL". But old Tevaram editions call this term 'aJcolAL'. May be the underlying assumption is Sanskrit name ought to be correct. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Jan 26 16:23:15 1999 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 17:23:15 +0100 Subject: Hindu new years day In-Reply-To: <9130EFB0684CD211869E0020484016B512C22E@satlmsgusr07.delta-air.com> Message-ID: <161227045692.23782.8994342504075355010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Periannan.Chandrasekaran wrote: >> We have Visakha for Murugan. >> Purba for Devi. >> > >And ONam for tirumAl (viSNu). >One of the pattuppAttu (such as maturaikkAJci) mentions >something like "the one born on ONam star". > >tiruvAtirai star is associated with Sivan ... Could you give astronomical identifications of the stars you mention, please! Best regards, Georg v. Simson From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Jan 26 23:06:46 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 18:06:46 -0500 Subject: Hindu new years day In-Reply-To: <16492983740140@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045680.23782.12719855434108230945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Though i started the debate on the status of the hindu newyears day i'm handicapped by lack of free time to participate further.However i have another query- in ordinary mortals like me the janma nakshatra determines the birthdays.But for avatars the tithi marks the jayanthi. How and why this transformation ? Krish. From d53 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue Jan 26 19:19:31 1999 From: d53 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Thomas Lehmann) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 20:19:31 +0100 Subject: Indian calendar-making In-Reply-To: <199901251858.KAA07855@shasta.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: <161227045694.23782.580012847209690017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Mani Varadarajan wrote: > Can someone recommend an exhaustive work on Indian > calendar-making? I am particularly interested in Sewell Robert and S. R. Dikshit The Indian Calendar Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1995 (reprint) Bahadur L.D. Swamikannu Pillai Panchang and Horoscope or The Indian Calendar and Indian Astrology New Delhi: Asian Educational Services, 1996 (reprint) Merrey, K. L. "The Hindu Festival Calendar" in: Welbon, Guy R. and Glenn E. Yocum, (eds), Religious Festivals in South India and Sri Lanka, New Delhi: Manohar, 1982, pp. 1-25 _____________________________________________________________________________ Thomas Lehmann, e-mail: d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Tue Jan 26 15:31:40 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 23:31:40 +0800 Subject: Hindu new years day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045687.23782.61935921991557550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:06 PM 1/26/99 -0500, you wrote: > Though i started the debate on the status of the hindu >newyears day i'm handicapped by lack of free time to participate >further.However i have another query- >in ordinary mortals like me the janma nakshatra determines >the birthdays.But for avatars the tithi marks the jayanthi. >How and why this transformation ? > >Krish. > Not necessarily so. We have Visakha for Murugan. Purba for Devi. Regards Jayabarathi ============================================ From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Tue Jan 26 16:26:39 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 00:26:39 +0800 Subject: Hindu new years day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045696.23782.7529843928505281101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:23 PM 1/26/99 +0100, you wrote: >Periannan.Chandrasekaran wrote: > >>> We have Visakha for Murugan. >>> Purba for Devi. >>> >> >>And ONam for tirumAl (viSNu). >>One of the pattuppAttu (such as maturaikkAJci) mentions >>something like "the one born on ONam star". >> >>tiruvAtirai star is associated with Sivan ... > >Could you give astronomical identifications of the stars you mention, please! > >Best regards, > >Georg v. Simson Vishakha is a sub-constellation falling in two signs of the zodiac. Three-quarters of it are in Libra and one-quarter in Scorpio. The main stars in Vishakha are Beta and Gamma Librae and Delta Scorpionis. Purba is otherwise known as Puuram in Tamil. It falls in Leo. The main stars going into this make up the body of the Lion beyond the head and shoulder. The main stars are Zosma-Delta Leonis and Coxa-Theta Leonis. ONam or SravaNa is a subconstellation which occupies the central four-ninths parts of Capricorn. Omega and Theta Capricornis together with some minor stars make up this group. Regards Jayabarathi ======================================================= > From warner at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Jan 27 01:31:29 1999 From: warner at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Warner Belanger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 01:31:29 +0000 Subject: Gilgit Manuscripts German Microfilm Message-ID: <161227045697.23782.506953379284037443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I have been informed that there exists a German microfilm copy of the Gilgit Manuscripts that tends to be clearer than the Chandra's Facsimile edition. Does anyone have any bibliographic information on where this microfilm is held? An address and contact name would be extremely helpful for ordering information. Thanks in advance, Warner Belanger From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 27 15:10:18 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 07:10:18 -0800 Subject: Astronomical names for Asterisms Message-ID: <161227045709.23782.8129177952388438429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Could you give astronomical identifications of the stars you >>mention, please! Dear Prof. Simson, The nakSatras common in Tamil literature are: -------------------------------------------------- Name nakSatra no. Patron deity -------------------------------------------------- vicAkam 16 Skanda-Murukan pUram 11 Parvati-imaiyavaL paraNi 2 Durga-koRRavai Atirai 6 'Siva ONam 22 Vishnu/TirumAl uttaram 12 Surya --------------------------------------------------- A. Parpola has written about nakSatras in ancient India. Best Regards Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From krishna.kambhampaty at EDS.COM Wed Jan 27 14:53:01 1999 From: krishna.kambhampaty at EDS.COM (Kambhampaty, Krishna) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 08:53:01 -0600 Subject: Militancy and non-secularism Message-ID: <161227045707.23782.3963139131552921920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Is it possible that indological investigation can > provide clues to providing a context that these > tragedies can be understood within and subsequently > avoided-rather than quantitatively compared against > another, whether these tragedies are perpetrated > against, or by for that matter, Hindus, Christians, or > Moslems? > Respectfully, > Robert > Are increasing militancy and non-secularism appropriate indological pursuits? If so, it would be interesting to see unemotional scholarship on why Hindu militancy is rising at a disproportionately higher rate than other militancy. It would also be interesting to try and relate the ebbs and tides of secularism in India compared with experiences of other cultures. Krishna Kambhampaty From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 27 17:10:21 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 09:10:21 -0800 Subject: Militancy and non-secularism Message-ID: <161227045716.23782.3155975677177403666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Are increasing militancy and non-secularism appropriate indological > pursuits? If so, it would be interesting to see unemotional scholarship > on why Hindu militancy is rising at a disproportionately higher rate than > other militancy. It would also be interesting to try and relate the ebbs and > tides of secularism in India compared with experiences of other cultures. India is being remade in the image of Pakistan, Iran and Iraq. Another aspect of semitic transformation of Hinduism? Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ehlers at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Wed Jan 27 08:34:05 1999 From: ehlers at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Gerhard Ehlers) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 09:34:05 +0100 Subject: [Request] Verses from Jaiminiya Samhita of Samaveda. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045702.23782.9882791988203816686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SUktas 4.29 and 4.30 of the JS contain the following Rcas: JS 4.29 has RV 10,9,5; 10,9,7; 8,19,1 (Var.: Uhishe instead of ohire); 8,19,2; 7,16,5; 7,16,6; 7,31,10 (Var.: mahevRdhe instead of mahivRdhe, cara instead of carA); 7,31,11; 7,31,12; 9,49,2 (Var.: gRhAn instead of gRham). JS 4.30 has RV 9,49,3; 9,49,4; 10,186,1 (Var.: na instead of Na); 10,186,3 (Var.: dhehi instead of dehi); 10,186,2; 7,32,26; 7,32,27. Raghu Viras ed. of the JS was published in Lahore 1938. The first ed. of the JS was made by W. Caland in 1907 but he gave the PratIka and the last word of the Rcas only. A reprint was published in 1966 by Olms, Hildesheim, s. W. Caland Kleine Schriften, Glasenapp-Stiftung Bd. 27 (1990), ed. by. M. Witzel, p. XVIII: Die JS mit einer Einleitung ueber die SAmavedaliteratur ... Regards, G. Ehlers From lpatton at EMORY.EDU Wed Jan 27 17:46:30 1999 From: lpatton at EMORY.EDU (Laurie L. Patton) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 12:46:30 -0500 Subject: Militancy and non-secularism In-Reply-To: <19990127171021.18748.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227045718.23782.5865243185392235051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "semitic transformation of Hinduism?" pisses me off. lp ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Laurie L. Patton Dept. of Religion, Emory University 537 Kilgo Circle, Atlanta, GA 30322 PH: 404-727-5177 FAX: 404-727-7597 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Please note: It may be several days before I get a chance to make a substantive reply. Thanks for the patience. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > Are increasing militancy and non-secularism appropriate indological > > pursuits? If so, it would be interesting to see unemotional > scholarship > > on why Hindu militancy is rising at a disproportionately higher rate > than > > other militancy. It would also be interesting to try and relate the > ebbs and > > tides of secularism in India compared with experiences of other > cultures. > > India is being remade in the image of Pakistan, Iran and Iraq. > Another aspect of semitic transformation of Hinduism? > > Swaminathan Madhuresan > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Wed Jan 27 18:20:20 1999 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 13:20:20 -0500 Subject: Militancy and non-secularism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045721.23782.738501493860526312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Consult Ashish Nandy, The Intimate Enemy. Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 Washington, D.C., 20052 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 2106 G St., NW Washington, D.C. 20052 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Laurie L. Patton wrote: > "semitic transformation of Hinduism?" pisses me off. lp > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Laurie L. Patton > Dept. of Religion, Emory University > 537 Kilgo Circle, Atlanta, GA 30322 > PH: 404-727-5177 FAX: 404-727-7597 > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Please note: It may be several days before I get a chance to make a > substantive reply. Thanks for the patience. > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > > > Are increasing militancy and non-secularism appropriate indological > > > pursuits? If so, it would be interesting to see unemotional > > scholarship > > > on why Hindu militancy is rising at a disproportionately higher rate > > than > > > other militancy. It would also be interesting to try and relate the > > ebbs and > > > tides of secularism in India compared with experiences of other > > cultures. > > > > India is being remade in the image of Pakistan, Iran and Iraq. > > Another aspect of semitic transformation of Hinduism? > > > > Swaminathan Madhuresan > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > DO YOU YAHOO!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > From lpatton at EMORY.EDU Wed Jan 27 18:22:19 1999 From: lpatton at EMORY.EDU (Laurie L. Patton) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 13:22:19 -0500 Subject: Clarification re: Militancy and non-secularism In-Reply-To: <19990127171021.18748.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227045719.23782.13922857596860570731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> List members, Please forgive my rather intemperate response to this discussion which was intended for two friends in Jewish Studies who are conducting a literature survey about the use of the term "Semitic" in Asian Studies. Let me explain in more professional language what I mean: The words "Indian" "Western" "Semitic" etcetc can be used as either descriptive, provisional adjectives, or they can be used as totalitarian adjectives. Even as we try to right the various imbalances of power in the production of knowledge about India, describing some perspectives as "Western" or "Indian" or "Semitic", these adjectives can only describe some, but not all, of those culture's or scholars' intellectual perspectives. Once these adjectives become THE determining factors of a culture's agenda, or a scholar's agenda, then we risk losing academic freedom. Our nationality or religion is only part of what makes us the Indologists that we are, and should never be used as determinative. It is imperative that we pay attention to our language when using nationality or religion to describe a particular perspective. Thanks, and apologies, lp ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Laurie L. Patton Dept. of Religion, Emory University 537 Kilgo Circle, Atlanta, GA 30322 PH: 404-727-5177 FAX: 404-727-7597 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Please note: It may be several days before I get a chance to make a substantive reply. Thanks for the patience. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > Are increasing militancy and non-secularism appropriate indological > > pursuits? If so, it would be interesting to see unemotional > scholarship > > on why Hindu militancy is rising at a disproportionately higher rate > than > > other militancy. It would also be interesting to try and relate the > ebbs and > > tides of secularism in India compared with experiences of other > cultures. > > India is being remade in the image of Pakistan, Iran and Iraq. > Another aspect of semitic transformation of Hinduism? > > Swaminathan Madhuresan > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Wed Jan 27 05:29:08 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 13:29:08 +0800 Subject: Astronomical names for AsterismsII:Was-Hindu new years day In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990127002639.007ef4b0@pop.tm.net.my> Message-ID: <161227045700.23782.2422717995960102621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, I missed Thiru Aadhirai-Aardhra in my previous posting. It's Beta-Orionis. More popularly known as Rigel. Regards Jayabarathi At 12:26 AM 1/27/99 +0800, you wrote: >At 05:23 PM 1/26/99 +0100, you wrote: >>Periannan.Chandrasekaran wrote: >> >>>> We have Visakha for Murugan. >>>> Purba for Devi. >>>> >>> >>>And ONam for tirumAl (viSNu). >>>One of the pattuppAttu (such as maturaikkAJci) mentions >>>something like "the one born on ONam star". >>> >>>tiruvAtirai star is associated with Sivan ... >> >>Could you give astronomical identifications of the stars you mention, please! >> >>Best regards, >> >>Georg v. Simson > > Vishakha is a sub-constellation falling in two signs > of the zodiac. Three-quarters of it are in Libra and one-quarter > in Scorpio. The main stars in Vishakha are Beta and Gamma > Librae and Delta Scorpionis. > Purba is otherwise known as Puuram in Tamil. It > falls in Leo. The main stars going into this make up the body > of the Lion beyond the head and shoulder. The main stars are > Zosma-Delta Leonis and Coxa-Theta Leonis. > ONam or SravaNa is a subconstellation which occupies > the central four-ninths parts of Capricorn. Omega and Theta > Capricornis together with some minor stars make up this > group. > > Regards > > Jayabarathi > >======================================================= > > > > > >> > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Jan 27 13:18:33 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 14:18:33 +0100 Subject: Andronovo culture Message-ID: <161227045704.23782.3776868893332360951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, do any of you have any bibliographic references to the Andronovo culture? (I don't speak Russian, unfortunately). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From pesch at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH Wed Jan 27 13:38:08 1999 From: pesch at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH (Peter Schreiner) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 14:38:08 +0100 Subject: New book on Rudra-Shiva Message-ID: <161227045706.23782.13685498402789049491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allow me to draw your attention to the following new publication by one of the members of our institute: Annemarie Mertens: Der Dakshamythus in der episch-puranischen Literatur : Beobachtungen zur religionsgeschichtlichen Entwicklung des Gottes Rudra-Shiva im Hinduismus. (Beitraege zur Indologie ; 29) Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 1998. xx, 444 pp. (ISBN 3-447-04079-3), paperback DM 148,-; ?S 1080,-; SFR 131,- Shiva?s image changed from a terrifying outsider in vedic times to a supreme God in Hinduism. This long process of Rudra-Shiva?s rise to a higher position can be studied in the many epic and puranic variations of the story of Daksha?s sacrifice. The popular episode of Shiva?s exclusion from a share of the sacrifice and his reaction to this discrimination - the forcible interruption of the sacrifice - is reported in Shaivite as well as Vaishnava and Shakta Puranas. The authors modified or extended the Daksha episode revealing their different religious attitudes. The critical analysis of the myth?s development and its different historical levels makes a contribution to the history of Hinduism, especially of Shivaism. Orders should be made to: Otto Harrassowitz D-65174 Wiesbaden Germany Fax: +49(0)611/530560 (Peter Schreiner, Abteilung fuer Indologie Universitaet Zuerich) From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jan 27 13:41:00 1999 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 14:41:00 +0100 Subject: desire in buddhism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045723.23782.4305952197145655067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I have a student doing a research project about desire (trsna/tanha/raga/etc) in Buddhism. Does anyone know of some good resources for this topic? He has been investigating accounts of the 4 noble truths, especially the second noble truth. Anything else? Thanks, John Grimes MSU From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Jan 27 12:01:37 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 17:01:37 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990125003517.0085fc20@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045712.23782.17000878526279594250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> PARVATA-3 If the word "parvata" is used in telugu country the practice should also be there in Karanataka which is a virasaiva predominant region devoted to zrizaila mallikhArjuna. I have found that this practice is there also From victor at NIAS.KU.DK Wed Jan 27 16:24:46 1999 From: victor at NIAS.KU.DK (Victor van Bijlert) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 17:24:46 +0100 Subject: Militancy and non-secularism Message-ID: <161227045714.23782.17362736151091678793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think one should see communalism basically as a socio-economic phenomenon, where the religious identities are significant as boundary-markers, separating the outgroups from the in-group. But I do not believe communalisms are really deeply religiously inspired forms of aggression. The fact that the Christians in Gujerat were probably persecuted by militant Hindus and the same happens in the Pakistan part of the Punjab where Christians are persecuted by Muslims, whereas again the latter are the victims of militant Hindu aggression in India and Hindus in Pakistan (if any are still left) are at the receiving end of Muslim aggression, but Shi'ites and Sunnis also fight each other in Pakistan; all these facts should make us pause and reflect. One needs historical and sociological on the spot research into these matters, and preferably extract real facts from suppositions about religious traditions. This is my thinking on this question Yours truly Victor A. van Bijlert From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Jan 28 04:44:59 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 18:44:59 -1000 Subject: Special Characters & Unicode In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045733.23782.14295804958864928549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, JR Gardner wrote: > I know that someone on this list, sometime ago, mentioned a website where > the hexidecimal valus for a + acute, u+ umlaut, etc. could be easily > found-- and of course, one can dig through www.w3.org, but I recall a > nicer, easier to navigate location with the expressed purpose of > presenting this esoterica to those of us toiling in the code pits. http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~raja/special.html The credit goes to someone else; I merely copied it to my site because it's useful. Pl. excuse all the other junk I have in there. Regards, Raja. From marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH Wed Jan 27 19:44:58 1999 From: marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Marianna Kropf) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 20:44:58 +0100 Subject: Adress needed Message-ID: <161227045725.23782.3415621929738156596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members - could anybody please indicate me the e-mail/ snail mail adress of Gerd J.R. Mevissen - thank you in advance. marianna kropf From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 28 01:51:22 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 20:51:22 -0500 Subject: Hindu new years day In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990126233140.00808100@pop.tm.net.my> Message-ID: <161227045711.23782.557690776621601677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> thanks for the info.There are of course starsand constellations associated with gods.My enquiry was more on the origins like of Skanda shashti than Murugan being remembered on visaka day aipasi. Krish. From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Wed Jan 27 14:10:37 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 22:10:37 +0800 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony In-Reply-To: <199901280836.JAA12104@ktpsp> Message-ID: <161227045751.23782.5110862313724748874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:36 AM 1/28/99 +0100, you wrote: >Could someone please help me with references to "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony, >where the rulers were inserted into a large womb-like gold vessel, >subsequently emerged "reborn," and thus became possessed of _kshatriya_ >status. > >Thanks in advance. > >Regards, --Sreenivas Dear Sir, If you are also thinking of historical references, there is one instance where VijayaRaghava Nayak, the last of the Tanjavur Nayak kings performed it with his wife. Details could be found in "Tanjavuri Andhra Rajulu Charitra" and such works that deal with late Tanjavur history. Please see also, "Nayaks of Tanjore" by Vriddhagirisan and "Tamilaham in the 17th Century". I have read a graphical description of this particular episode in some historical text - where exactly eludes my memory. The Hiranya garbha is said to have have been fashioned as a golden cow with a womb. VijayaRaghava and his queen RamaBhadramba are said to have gone into the womb; the womb was subsequently closed; and they emerged out, having been reborn. The golden cow is supposed to have been donated to the brahmins. I heard another version from a Tanjavurian that a bronze cow was used for the purpose. It must have taken place sometime between 1633 and 1673 A.D. Regards Jayabarathi > >-- >E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de ==================================================> From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Thu Jan 28 04:22:12 1999 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 22:22:12 -0600 Subject: Special Characters & Unicode In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045731.23782.17207052052455391657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I know that someone on this list, sometime ago, mentioned a website where the hexidecimal valus for a + acute, u+ umlaut, etc. could be easily found-- and of course, one can dig through www.w3.org, but I recall a nicer, easier to navigate location with the expressed purpose of presenting this esoterica to those of us toiling in the code pits. Thanks in advance. Gosh, remember when the only topic we used to get snippy and tired of was character coding? Them's was the days . . . . jrg __________________________ John Robert Gardner Project Coordinator Electronic Thesis and Dissertation Project http://vedavid.org/xml/ ____________________________________________________ Obermann Center & The Graduate College for Advanced Studies The University of Iowa ____________________________________________________ "It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation" - So'ham asmi From pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Jan 28 06:27:49 1999 From: pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (P. Cooper) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 22:27:49 -0800 Subject: desire in buddhism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045734.23782.14377801500499495723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Tanha Vagga (Chapter 24) of the Dhammapada is certainly worth a look, if you and/or your student haven't examined it already. Regards, Paul Cooper On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, john grimes wrote: > Dear List Members, > I have a student doing a research project about desire > (trsna/tanha/raga/etc) in Buddhism. Does anyone know of some good resources > for this topic? He has been investigating accounts of the 4 noble truths, > especially the second noble truth. Anything else? > Thanks, > John Grimes > MSU > From ellraven at WXS.NL Wed Jan 27 21:54:29 1999 From: ellraven at WXS.NL (Raven, E.M.) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 22:54:29 +0100 Subject: Adress needed Mevissen Message-ID: <161227045726.23782.4367812305291225775.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The address of Gerd Mevissen: Gerd J.R. Mevissen Erasmusstrasse 17 10553 Berlin B.R.D. no e-mail Ellen Raven Leiden From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Wed Jan 27 19:37:50 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 03:37:50 +0800 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony In-Reply-To: <199901281858.TAA14621@ktpsp> Message-ID: <161227045780.23782.17655289341490465456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:58 PM 1/28/99 +0100, you wrote: >Thanks to Drs. Drozdzowicz, Jayabharati, and Ganesan for the valuable >information they provided! > >In fact it is in "tanjaavoori aandhra raajula charitra" I read about this >ceremony, Vijayaraaghava naayaka undergoing it, for the first time. Also, >V. Narayana Rao, D. Shulman and S. Subrahmanyam referred to it in >"Symbols of Substance - Court and State in Nayaka Period Tamilnadu" >(OUP, 1992). I could even get hold of Satyanatha Aiyar's (History of the >Nayaks of Madura & Tamilaham in the 17th century. In later he cites the >Jesuit missionary; Antao de Proenca's description of the ceremony from >1665) and Vriddhagirisan's (Nayaks of Tanjore). Even Gene Roghair in his >_The Epic of palnaaDu_ (OUP, 1982) has a brief reference to it. > >But, recently I heard that it was performed even before; i.e. during Chola >period also. I am looking for earlier; pre-naayaka, references if any. There are instances of Thulaabaara sacrifice having been done in the pre-nayak days. But so far Hiranyagarbha eludes mention. But there is another instance. Ragunatha Sethupathi, the third Sethupathi in line, of Ramnad kingdom has performed it. He started with a dimished Ramnad territory as a feudatory of the Madurai Nayaks in 1647 A.D. Then he enlarged his own territories at the expense of Madurai and Tanjavur Nayakdoms. When Madurai country was over-run by the Mysoreans and Tirumalai, the Grand Nayak was in danger of losing his life and his kingdom, Ragunatha Sethupathi led his army and chased out the Mysoreans. The grateful Tirumalai bestowed the title, "Tirumalai Sethupathi" and "the Protector of Ranii's Thali(mangala-sutra)". In addition, he gave the special privilege of celebrating the Navaraathri festival in Ramnad with equal splendour as in Madurai. Thus Ragunatha Sethupathi became the first de facto king of Ramnad. He performed the Hiranyagarbha sacrifice in the Temple of Rameswaram. Thus he earned the title of "Hiranyagarbhayaaji" . From that time, all the Sethupathis added Hiranyagarbhayaaji as one of their royal titles in addition to "Sethu Muula Rakshaka Durandaran", "RamanathaSwaami Kaarya Durandaran", etc. I have a doubt. Was it is done in order to become a fulfledged Kshatriya? In the course of Indian history, there were many mlechchas and foreigners(non-Hindus) like Sakaas, Parthians, Greeks, Kushans, and Huns who ultimately became Kshatriyas. Did they do the Hiranyagarbha? In later times, we find Saamraat Sivaji becoming a Kshatriya, first by a Vedic ritual and susequently by means of a Tantric ritual. Many kings, rulers and Maharajas came into being during later times. Most of them are descendants of war-lords, mercenary entrepreuners, and of more humble origins like robber-chieftains. I need not mention names because their descendants are still around:-) They don't seem to have performed this sacrifice. I hope you don't mind my question. No malice intended. Regards Jayabarathi Are >there any instances from northern India too? > >I am more interested in Sastra-ic references (providing base/legitimation) >to this ceremony. Dr. Drodzowicz provided one so far. > >Thanks once again. > >Regards, --Sreenivas > >P.S. I just saw Prof. Hiltebeitel's message. Thanks for the _Bayly_ ref.! >In fact a book I once read. Bad memory :-( ). > >-- >E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 28 13:10:12 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 05:10:12 -0800 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony Message-ID: <161227045759.23782.6927180551469742565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Could someone please help me with references to "hiraNyagarbha" >ceremony, where the rulers were inserted into a large womb-like >gold vessel, subsequently emerged "reborn," and thus became >possessed of _kshatriya_ status. Dear Sreenivas, Pl. see: Princess Gouri Lakshmi Bayi, Sree Padmanabha Swamy Temple, Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, 1995, 407 p. The Princess Amma is a great art historian, often she writes in The Hindu on Kerala temples very well. Marthandavarma did a hiranyagarbha ceremony where a huge gold vessel was donated off to the brahmins. There is a large mural in the Royal palace of Trivandram which is published in color in the BVB book. The ceremony is detailed there, I think. PathiRRup pattu, the history of Chera kings and other sangam Tamil texts describe how the Tamil kings sponsored several yagnas. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Wed Jan 27 22:50:09 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 06:50:09 +0800 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony In-Reply-To: <199901281858.TAA14621@ktpsp> Message-ID: <161227045787.23782.3313102220651684240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:58 PM 1/28/99 +0100, you wrote: > >But, recently I heard that it was performed even before; i.e. during Chola >period also. I am looking for earlier; pre-naayaka, references if any. Are >there any instances from northern India too? Found it. During the Imperial Chola times, it was performed by no-less person than the chief queen of the Great Raja Raja Chola himself. The event took place in ThiruVisaluur temple in Tanjavur district. It was in his twenty-ninth regnal year, ie., 1014 A.D. He performed the Thulabara Dana ceremony and donated his own weight in gold to the temple. His chief queen, Danti Sakti Vitanki alias Loka Maha Devi perfomed the Hiranyagarbha Dana. Some of the left-over gold was fashioned into golden flowers(Suvarna Pushpa) and dedicated to Kshetrapala in the shrine that she built in Thru Valanjulzhi. The inscription recording the event is inscribed in the temple of ThiruVisaluur, below a sculpture of Raja Raja and his queen performing Siva worship. One of the rare representations of RajaRaja that have come across the ages to us. Regards Jayabarathi >I am more interested in Sastra-ic references (providing base/legitimation) >to this ceremony. Dr. Drodzowicz provided one so far. > >Thanks once again. > >Regards, --Sreenivas > >P.S. I just saw Prof. Hiltebeitel's message. Thanks for the _Bayly_ ref.! >In fact a book I once read. Bad memory :-( ). > >-- >E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de > From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jan 28 07:34:59 1999 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 08:34:59 +0100 Subject: Special Characters & Unicode In-Reply-To: <003d01be4a9b$53394100$14cbe182@Victor.NIAS> Message-ID: <161227045753.23782.7109907657736287633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Victor here is a rather complete list per the Indic concept of time: John Grimes MSU Akhilananda, "Time and eternity - the Vedantic viewpoint", JBR: Vol. 27, 1959, pp. 114-117. Apte, K.V., " Where is the time: an exposition of Madhyamakakarika XIX", JSU: Vol. 7, !974, pp. 49-54. Bedekar, V. M. , " The doctrines of svabhava and kala in the Mahabharata and other Sanskrit works", Journal of the University of Poona: No. 13, 1961, pp. 5-34. Bhattacharya, Deviprasad, " A short note on time", CR: Vol. 175, 1965, pp. 45 - 46. Bhattacharya, H. , " The theory of time in Jaina philosophy", JainG: Vol. 23, 1927, pp. 33-43. Bhattacharya, K.C. , " Reality of the future", KCBSP II: pp. 271-280. Bhattacharya, U.C. , " Problem of time in Indian thought", CALCUTTA REVIEW: Vol. 52, 1934, pp. 302-309. Bhattacharya, Umesh Chandra, " Space, time and Brahma", POS: Vol. 39, 1969, pp. 69-85. Cairns, Grace E., " Time and eternity and social progress in the Advaita Vedanta of T. M. P. Mahadevan", DARSHANA: Vol. 31, 1968, pp. 64-68. Coomaraswamy A. K. ,, TIME AND ETERNITY, Ascona: Artibus Asiae Publishers, 1947. Das, S. R. , " Notion of time in Indian philosophy", INDIAN HISTORICAL QUARTERLY: Vol. 9, 1933, pp. 149-153. De, N. M. , " Categories of time and space", IPC: Vol. 4.3, 1959, pp. 160-163. Devasenapathi V. A. , TOWARDS CONQUEST OF TIME, Madras: 1962. Eliade, M. " Time and Eternity in Indian thought", MAN AND TIME, ERANOS YEAR BOOK 1958, London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, pp. 173-200. Fukuhara, Ryogon, "Time theory in the philosophy of pheenomena and noumena in Buddhism", RYUKOKU DAIGAKU RONSHU(Journal of the Ryokoku University), Kyoto, Japan, Vol 350, 1955, pp. 3-5. Gupta, S.K. , "Concept of time- East and West", JIAP: Vol. 12.2, 1973, pp. 29-40. Haravu, Kadambari, " Concept of space in the Vaisesika darsana and the Prasastapada Bhasya compared with those of physics", JKUOML: Vol. 20, 1975, pp. 77-92. Hasurkar, " The undefinability of the division of time as enunciated by Shreeharsa", IPC: Vol. 4.2, 1959, pp. 89-97. Hiriyanna, Mysore, "An Indian view of 'present time' ", QUARTERLY JOURNAL OF THE MYTHIC SOCIETY, Bangalore: Vol 14, 1924, pp. 233-237. _____________, " Advaitic conception of time", PO: Vol. 4, 1939, pp. 47 - 48. _____________, " Advaitic conception of time", IPS: Vol. 1, pp. 104-106. Inada, Kenneth K., "Time and temporality- a Buddhist approach", PHILOSOPHY EAST AND WEST, Honololu, Hawaii: Vol. 24 , 1974, pp. 171-180. Jhaveri, Indukala, " Concept of kala and akasa in the Samkhya- Yoga system", JOI: Vol. 5, 1955-56, pp. 417-419. Junankar, N.S. , THE CONCEPTIONS OF TIME, SPACE, AND MOTION IN EARLY INDIAN PHILOSOPHY, D. Phil Dissertation, Oxford University, 1937. Kalupahana, David J., "The Buddhist conception of time and temporality", PHILOSOPHY EASTAND WEST, Honololu, Hawaii: Vol. 24, 1974, pp. 181-192. Khare, R. S., "Concept of time and time-reckoning among the Hindus: an anthropological viewpoint", EASTERN ANTHROPOLOGIST: Vol. 20, 1967, pp. 47-53. Koller, John M., " On Buddhist views of devouring time", PHILOSOPHY EAST AND WEST, Honololu, Hawaii: Vol. 24, 1974, pp. 201-208. Kumar, Munishri Mahendra, " Reality and relativity of space and time in Jain metaphysics and modern physics", CIDO: Vol. 26, Summaries, 1964, pp. 154-56. Madhavatirtha, THE CONCEPT OF TIME IN INDIAN PHILOSOPHY, Ahmedabad: Vedant Ashram, 1951. Mahadevan, T.M.P., "Time and the timeless", CIPH: pp. 201-232. __________, " Time and timeless: Principal Miller lectures 1953. Madras. 1954. __________, " The Advaita view of time", SMFV: pp. 500-503. __________, " Time and timelessness", JD: Vol. 1, 1976, pp. 324-330. Malkani, G. R. , " Reality of time", PQ: Vol. 16, 1940-41, pp. 208- 217. ___________, " The temporal and the eternal", PHILOSOPHICAL QUARTERLY : Vol. 30, No. 1, April 1957, pp. 11-18. ___________, " Time and the absolute", JOURNAL OF THE PHILOSOPHICAL ASSOCIATION, Nagpur: Vol. 5, 1958, pp. 1-7. Mandal, Kumar Kishore, A COMPARITIVE STUDY OF THE CONCEPTS OF SPACE AND TIME IN INDIAN THOUGHT, Varansani: The Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office, 1968. ______________, THE CONCEPT OF SPACE AND TIME WITH SPECIAL REFERENCE TO INDIAN THOUGHT, Ph. D. Thesis, Patna University, 1962. Marder, L., TIME AND THE SPACE TRAVELLER, George, Allen and Unwin, London, 1971. Nakamura, H. , " Time in Indian and Japenese Thought", In: J. T. Fraser (ed.), THE VOICES OF TIME, New York: G. Braziller, 1966. Padmarajiah, Y. J. ," The theory of time in Jainism", MysoreU: Vol. 7, 1946-47, pp. 111-115. Panikkar, R., " Toward a typology of time and temporality in the ancient Indian tradition", PHILOSOPHY EAST AND WEST, Vol. 24, No. 2, April 1974, pp. 161- 164. Pillai, N. Gopala, " The conception of time according to Bhartrhari", THE SANSKRIT COLLEGE MAGAZINE, Sri Citra: Trivandrum, Vol. 2.2, 1942, pp. 1- 6. Puligandla, R. , "Time and history in the Indian tradition", PEW: Vol. 24, 1974, pp. 165-170. Rao, M. A. Venkata, " Time and eternity", VK. : Vol. 18, 1931-1932, 66 ff. Rao, S. N. , " The manifest and the unmanifest: Time, Space, Relativity", PB: Vol. 61, 1956, pp. 290-293. Reyna, Ruth, " Concept of no-time in Advaita Vedanta", HINDUTVA: Vol. 5.3, 1974, pp. 9-12. Sasaki, Genjun H., " The time concept in Abhidharma", CIDO, Vol. 26, 1969, pp. 471- 480. Sastri, P.S. , " Time and the philosophy of history", PRABUDDHA BHARATA: Vol. 60, 1955, pp. 420- 423. Sastri, Satya Vrat, " Bhartrhari's conception of time", PAIOC: Summaries, Vol. 17, 1953, pp. 244. __________, " Concept of time in Mahabhasya", PAIOC:Vol, 23, 1966, pp. 361-367. _________, " Conception of time in post-Vedic Sanskrit literature", ESSAYS ON INDOLOGY, Delhi: Meharchand Lachhmandasa, 1963,pp. 149- 204. Schayer, Stanislas, REMARQUES SUR DE LE PROBLEME DU TEMPS DANS LE BOUDDDHISME PRIMITIF,CIDO, BRUSSELS,1938. ____________, " Contributions to the problem of Time in Indian philosophy", Cracow: Polska Akademia Umiejetnosci Prace komisji orientalistycznej, 1938. Sen, Sanat Kumar, " Time in Samkhya-Yoga", VJP: Vol. 4.1, 1967, pp. 72-89. ____________, " Time in Samkhya- Yoga", IPQ: Vol. 8, 1968, pp. 406-426. Sharma, Arvind, " The notion of cyclical time in Hinduism", CAS: Vol. 5, 1974, pp. 26-35. Shukla, J.M. , " The concept of time according to Bhartrhari", PAIOC: Summaries, Vol. 17, 1953, pp. 379-384. Sinha, Ajit Kumar, " The nature of space, time and causality according to Samkara and F.H. Bradley", KAG: pp. 218- 223. Varadachari, K.C. , " Time and Mysticism", JGJRI: Vol. 7, 1949-50, pp. 167-181. Vrat, Satya, " Conception of time according to Bhartrhari", ABORI: Vol. 39, 1959, pp. 68-78. Yadav, Bibhuti S., "The question of time and the timeless", JD: Vol. 1, 1976, pp. 345- 362. >Could anyone give me some references to articles or books about the Hindu >concept of time. Preferably publications from an anthropological point of >view. >Many thanks, > >Victor From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jan 28 07:42:01 1999 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 08:42:01 +0100 Subject: hiring practices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045755.23782.10518592627989243100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> List members, To be blunt, neither American, British, Canadian nor Indian Universities have a monopoly on nationalism, narrowism, parochialism, bias, and discrimination per hiring practices. Perhaps, as it has been said, only the innocent have a right to throw stones and, by definition, the innocent do not do such things. And to be fair, there are also numerous occasions and places where such practices have little or no scope. Such is the way of the world. John Grimes From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 28 16:42:35 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 08:42:35 -0800 Subject: Srisailam stalavRkSam Message-ID: <161227045762.23782.613916878623359792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Want to know the sacred tree of Srisailam MallikArjuna temple. Is it by any chance the "white arjuna" tree? The Tamil Lexicon gives veNmarutu = 'flowering murdah' as the "white arjuna" tree. Is this tree attested in Telugu folk songs, stala puraaNam (Telugu or Sanskrit) or in inscriptions about Srisailam? Many thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Thu Jan 28 08:36:56 1999 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 09:36:56 +0100 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony Message-ID: <161227045736.23782.8026859246214192245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone please help me with references to "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony, where the rulers were inserted into a large womb-like gold vessel, subsequently emerged "reborn," and thus became possessed of _kshatriya_ status. Thanks in advance. Regards, --Sreenivas -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Thu Jan 28 08:37:18 1999 From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 09:37:18 +0100 Subject: Adress needed Message-ID: <161227045738.23782.14149678197315872747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Marianna Kropf wrote: > > Dear list members > > - could anybody please indicate me the e-mail/ snail mail adress of Gerd > J.R. Mevissen - thank you in advance. > > marianna kropf Dear Marianna Kropf, Die Adresse die Frau Raven Ihnen schickte ist korrekt. Sie ist Gerd Mevissens Privatanschrift. Sie k?nnen in jedoch auch unter unserer Institutsadresse erreichen: Gerd Mevissen FU Berlin Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a 14195 Berlin Wenn es keine vertrauliche Nachricht ist k?nnen Sie die e-mail auch an mich schicken; ich sehe Gerd fast jede Woche. Alles Gute jn -- jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de Juergen Neuss Freie Universitaet Berlin Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a 14195 Berlin From victor at NIAS.KU.DK Thu Jan 28 08:50:58 1999 From: victor at NIAS.KU.DK (Victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 09:50:58 +0100 Subject: Special Characters & Unicode Message-ID: <161227045741.23782.11565661067037613715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone give me some references to articles or books about the Hindu concept of time. Preferably publications from an anthropological point of view. Many thanks, Victor From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Thu Jan 28 08:59:03 1999 From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 09:59:03 +0100 Subject: Apology Message-ID: <161227045745.23782.9035800128732071382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please excuse my last posting in German which I sent to the list by mistake. Thanks jn > -- > jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de > > Juergen Neuss > > Freie Universitaet Berlin > > Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte > > K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a > > 14195 Berlin -- jneuss at zedat.fu-berlin.de Juergen Neuss Freie Universitaet Berlin Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34a 14195 Berlin From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Thu Jan 28 03:23:17 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 11:23:17 +0800 Subject: [q] Seeking information on In-Reply-To: <19990129133030.20750.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045819.23782.3783043827363759498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:30 AM 1/29/99 PST, you wrote: > >Dear Dr. Jayabarathi, > -----------cut > >Where is this Tiruvisaluur Rajaraja image published? >I want to see it. Which book? I only know >KaNDarAdhittar (Thitu Nallam). It is found in "Early Chola Temples" S.R.Balasubramanyan-Orient Longmans Publication Vol.2 Plate No.186. Its also found in "Chola Mandalaththu VaralARRu nAyagargaLin siRpanggaLum OviyanggaLum" by KudavAyil BalasubramaNiyan- Thamilzh Palkalaik Kalzhagam Publications. Regards Jayabarathi > >More later, >n. ganesan > > >Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:50:09 +0800 >Reply-To: Indology >From: jayabarathi >Subject: Re: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >At 07:58 PM 1/28/99 +0100, you wrote: > > Found it. During the Imperial Chola times, it was performed by >no-less >person than the chief queen of the Great Raja Raja Chola himself. > The event took place in ThiruVisaluur temple in Tanjavur >district. >It was in his twenty-ninth regnal year, ie., 1014 A.D. He performed the >Thulabara >Dana ceremony and donated his own weight in gold to the temple. His >chief >queen, Danti Sakti Vitanki alias Loka Maha Devi perfomed the >Hiranyagarbha >Dana. Some of the left-over gold was fashioned into golden >flowers(Suvarna >Pushpa) >and dedicated to Kshetrapala in the shrine that she built in Thru >Valanjulzhi. > The inscription recording the event is inscribed in the temple >of >ThiruVisaluur, below a sculpture of Raja Raja and his queen performing >Siva >worship. >One of the rare representations of RajaRaja that have come across the >ages >to us. > >Regards > >Jayabarathi > =================================== From mdroz at VELA.FILG.UJ.EDU.PL Thu Jan 28 10:35:35 1999 From: mdroz at VELA.FILG.UJ.EDU.PL (mdroz) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 11:35:35 +0100 Subject: ODP: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony In-Reply-To: <199901280836.JAA12104@ktpsp> Message-ID: <161227045748.23782.260516917035761268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Oryginalna wiadomo??----- Od: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK] W imieniu Sreenivas Paruchuri Wys?ano: Donnerstag, 28. Januar 1999 09:37 Do: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Temat: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony Could someone please help me with references to "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony, where the rulers were inserted into a large womb-like gold vessel, subsequently emerged "reborn," and thus became possessed of _kshatriya_ status. Thanks in advance. Regards, --Sreenivas -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de There is something similar in the pancaratra samhita texts for ex. in the Padma samhita chapter 20th - hiranyagarbhaviddhi (in caryapada) and also in the Parama samhita chapter 17th - isvara, but here in the context of the initiation ceremony. Maybe it is worth checking. Regards, Marzena Drozdzowicz From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Thu Jan 28 16:36:46 1999 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 11:36:46 -0500 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony In-Reply-To: <199901280836.JAA12104@ktpsp> Message-ID: <161227045760.23782.14870322493306274704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This ceremony gets some brief discussion in Susan Bayly, Saints, goddesses and Kings, and in Eugen Roghair's The Epic of Palnadu. Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 Washington, D.C., 20052 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 2106 G St., NW Washington, D.C. 20052 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Sreenivas Paruchuri wrote: > Could someone please help me with references to "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony, > where the rulers were inserted into a large womb-like gold vessel, > subsequently emerged "reborn," and thus became possessed of _kshatriya_ > status. > > Thanks in advance. > > Regards, --Sreenivas > > -- > E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de > From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 28 21:09:02 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 13:09:02 -0800 Subject: Srisailam stalavRkSam Message-ID: <161227045771.23782.1832734207742095596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A related question: In the stotra/stava literature pertinent to Srisailam, is there one on Goddess BhramarAmbA? Ascribed to whom? Swaminathan Madhuresan ---"N. Ganesan" wrote: > > Want to know the sacred tree of Srisailam MallikArjuna temple. > > Is it by any chance the "white arjuna" tree? > The Tamil Lexicon gives veNmarutu = 'flowering murdah' > as the "white arjuna" tree. > > Is this tree attested in Telugu folk songs, stala puraaNam > (Telugu or Sanskrit) or in inscriptions about Srisailam? _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Thu Jan 28 12:52:50 1999 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 13:52:50 +0100 Subject: Special Characters & Unicode In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045757.23782.12839973016468280311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Could anyone give me some references to articles or books about the Hindu >>concept of time. Preferably publications from an anthropological point of >>view. >>Many thanks, >> >>Victor >Victor here is a rather complete list per the Indic concept of time: >John Grimes >MSU > Thank you very much for the useful bibliography you sent us. One could add: Religion and time / edited by Anindita Niyogi Balslev and J. N. Mohanty. Leiden : Brill, 1993. 210 pp. (Studies in the history of religions ; 54) ISBN: 9004095837 Balslev, Anindita Niyogi: A study of time in Indian philosophy. Wiesbaden : Harrassowitz, 1983.172 pp. ISBN: 3-447-02332-5 From indtimes at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 28 19:24:12 1999 From: indtimes at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (indtimes@del2) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 14:24:12 -0500 Subject: Special Characters & Unicode Message-ID: <161227045743.23782.14489345619435956306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a new site at www.indiabookfair.com. It is a nice place for indian book lovers. The site is having lot of books on different topics. You may visit here, may be you will get good stuff there. sanjeev At 09:50 AM 1/28/99 +0100, you wrote: >Could anyone give me some references to articles or books about the Hindu >concept of time. Preferably publications from an anthropological point of >view. >Many thanks, > >Victor > > From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 28 22:39:01 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 14:39:01 -0800 Subject: Astronomical names for AsterismsII:Was-Hindu new years day Message-ID: <161227045777.23782.4742303706038655665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For 'siva mahAdeva, never being born is maintained in Tamil tradtion all along. tEvAram or any other 'Saiva tirumuRai does not treat 'Siva as a child. Cilambu calls 'Siva as "piRavA yAkkaip periyOn2". - ie., the Great God who is never born and hence eternal. In the 100s of piLLaittamiz prabandhams, almost every God or King is eulogized as a baby. But, except 'Siva. On the contrary, see the beautiful passages of Rama or Krishna as a baby in AzvArs. There are 10s of piLLaittamiz works treating many phases of Vishnu/TirumAl as a child. Is there a reason why Tiru ONam is not the natal star of viSNu? NaccinArkkiniyar apparently thinks so. (cf. Chandra's quote). Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 28 10:56:25 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 15:56:25 +0500 Subject: short "e" and long "E" in Kannada orthography Message-ID: <161227045747.23782.8357835532558598864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:32 21.01.99 EST, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >Can somebody tell me when short "e" and long "E" came to be differentiated >orthographically in Kannada? Thanks in advance. Caldwell's Comparative Grammar of the Dravidian Languages (repr. Madras, 1976, pp. 130-2) tells us that unlike the Tamil-Malayalam alphabet, Telugu-Canarese differentiated between long and short e and o from the beginning. I have not been able to check the oldest (4th century) Kannada inscription yet. B. Ramachandra Rao's Descriptive Grammar of Pampa Bharata (Mysore, 1972) tells us that short and long e and o are distinguished in that text; again I have not been able to see old mss. yet, but Rao gives as an example pemku.li / peemku.li (p. 26); since the first syllable in both cases would be long anyway, the distinction must be orthographically visible, and not inferible from prosody. RZ Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Thu Jan 28 17:35:37 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 18:35:37 +0100 Subject: Special Characters & Unicode Message-ID: <161227045764.23782.9132985348871820972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Victor, perhaps this is not exactly what you want, but an useful compilation of 28 essays (originally between 1902 and 1989), mostly philosophical, is H. S. Prasad (ed.): Essays on Time in Buddhism. (Bibliotheca Indo-Buddhica No. 78) Sri Satguru Publications (a Division of Indian Books Centre), Delhi 1991. ISBN 81-7030-262-5 It seems that the same author edited a similar collection of non-buddhist material: Time in Indian Philosophy, of which I don't have the publication data. Ferenc ------------------------------------ Ferenc Ruzsa assistant professor of metaphysics E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu -----Original Message----- From: Victor van Bijlert >Could anyone give me some references to articles or books about the Hindu >concept of time. Preferably publications from an anthropological point of >view. From marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH Thu Jan 28 18:18:50 1999 From: marianne.kropf at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Marianna Kropf) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 19:18:50 +0100 Subject: Adress needed Mevissen Message-ID: <161227045766.23782.6513179625215887575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> - thank you! marianna Raven, E.M. schrieb: > > The address of Gerd Mevissen: > > Gerd J.R. Mevissen > Erasmusstrasse 17 > 10553 Berlin > B.R.D. > > no e-mail > > Ellen Raven > Leiden From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Thu Jan 28 18:58:55 1999 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 19:58:55 +0100 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony In-Reply-To: <19990128131012.10338.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045768.23782.10323950077193830644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Drs. Drozdzowicz, Jayabharati, and Ganesan for the valuable information they provided! In fact it is in "tanjaavoori aandhra raajula charitra" I read about this ceremony, Vijayaraaghava naayaka undergoing it, for the first time. Also, V. Narayana Rao, D. Shulman and S. Subrahmanyam referred to it in "Symbols of Substance - Court and State in Nayaka Period Tamilnadu" (OUP, 1992). I could even get hold of Satyanatha Aiyar's (History of the Nayaks of Madura & Tamilaham in the 17th century. In later he cites the Jesuit missionary; Antao de Proenca's description of the ceremony from 1665) and Vriddhagirisan's (Nayaks of Tanjore). Even Gene Roghair in his _The Epic of palnaaDu_ (OUP, 1982) has a brief reference to it. But, recently I heard that it was performed even before; i.e. during Chola period also. I am looking for earlier; pre-naayaka, references if any. Are there any instances from northern India too? I am more interested in Sastra-ic references (providing base/legitimation) to this ceremony. Dr. Drodzowicz provided one so far. Thanks once again. Regards, --Sreenivas P.S. I just saw Prof. Hiltebeitel's message. Thanks for the _Bayly_ ref.! In fact a book I once read. Bad memory :-( ). -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Fri Jan 29 05:59:24 1999 From: mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 21:59:24 -0800 Subject: Ramayana conference at UBC Message-ID: <161227045783.23782.16777324161860908942.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Organised by the PROGRAMME IN INTER-CULTURAL STUDIES IN ASIA (PICSA), Institute of Asian Research, University of British Columbia, Vancouver BC Jointly sponsored by the Centre for India And South Asia Research, Centre for Southeast Asia Research, and the Department of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo CONFERENCE ON THE RAMAYANA Programme updated 28 January 1999 Register before February 10, 1999 at 822-6050 or mbose at interchange.ubc.ca FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 1999 Reception, Performance and Dinner $15/person 4:00 p.m. Reception Tabla performance by Denise Nuttal, Dept. of Anthropology & Sociology, UBC, Performance of an episode from the Ramayana by Jay Govinda An excerpt from the performance of the Ramayana in Prambanan Temple 6: 00 p.m. Welcome address by Professor KENNETH BRYANT, Chair, Department of Asian Studies, UBC 6: 15 p.m. Plenary Session: Professor ROBERT GOLDMAN, Chair, Department of South Asian Studies, University of California at Berkeley. "The Ghost from the Anthill: Valmiki and the Destiny of the Ramakatha in South and Southeast Asia" 7:15 p.m. Dinner ********************************************************************* SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 1999 9:00 am - 5:30 pm Conference Room #120 Lunch $10 SESSION I 9: 00 am Coffee Chair, MANDAKRANTA BOSE, Religious Studies, UBC 9:30-10:25 am SALLY SUTHERLAND GOLDMAN, Department of South Asian Studies, University of California at Berkeley. "Ornamenting the Body: Beauty in Valmiki's Ramayana" 10:25-11:20 am VIDYUT AKLUJKAR, Centre for India and South Asia Research, UBC. "The Framing ofthe Shrew: Kaikeyi as Kalaha in the Ananda-Ramayana" 11:20 - 11:30 am Coffee break 11:30 am -12:25 pm LAURIE SEARS, University of Washington, Seattle "Ramayana Stories and Islamic Mysticism in 19th and 20th Century Java" 12:30 - 2:00 pm Lunch SESSION II Chair, LAURENCE PRESTON, Asian Studies, UBC 2:00-2:55 pm ALESSANDRA IYER, Wolfson College, Oxford "Images of Women in the Prambanan Ramayana Reliefs" 2:55-3:50 pm HEIDI PAUWELS, University of Washington, Seattle "Three ways of falling in love: Tulsidas's Phulvari episode and the way it is portrayed in contemporary electronic media" 3:50 - 4:00 pm Coffee break 4:00-5:00 pm Discussion 5:00 pm Concluding remarks For further information, Dr. M. Bose 822-6050 (mbose at interchange.ubc.ca) or Karen Jew (kjew at interchange.ubc.ca) or Derek Bideshi (lordsoth at interchange.ubc.ca) Mandakranta Bose Department of Religious Studies/ Director, Programme in Inter-cultural Studies in Asia Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2 mbose at interchange.ubc.ca From thompson at JLC.NET Thu Jan 28 07:15:24 1999 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 02:15:24 -0500 Subject: Clarification re: Militancy and non-secularism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045729.23782.262606218902983015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is just to second the remarks that Laurie Patton has made here. The offensive ethnic slurs [both real and merely perceived], the name-calling, and the partisan bickering seem to have pushed scholarly discussion, for the most part, off the list. I hope that this will pass, and that the list's proper focus, on scholarship, will return. George Thompson At 01:22 PM 1/27/1999 -0500, you wrote: > List members, > Please forgive my rather intemperate response to this discussion >which was intended for two friends in Jewish Studies who are conducting a >literature survey about the use of the term "Semitic" in Asian Studies. >Let me explain in more professional language what I mean: > The words "Indian" "Western" "Semitic" etcetc can be used as >either descriptive, provisional adjectives, or they can be used as >totalitarian adjectives. Even as we try to right the various imbalances of >power in the production of knowledge about India, describing some >perspectives as "Western" or "Indian" or "Semitic", these adjectives can >only describe some, but not all, of those culture's or scholars' >intellectual perspectives. Once these adjectives become THE >determining factors of a culture's agenda, or a scholar's agenda, then we >risk losing academic freedom. Our nationality or religion is only part >of what makes us the Indologists that we are, and should never be used >as determinative. It is imperative that we pay attention to >our language when using nationality or religion to describe a particular >perspective. > Thanks, and apologies, lp > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Laurie L. Patton >Dept. of Religion, Emory University >537 Kilgo Circle, Atlanta, GA 30322 >PH: 404-727-5177 FAX: 404-727-7597 >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Please note: It may be several days before I get a chance to make a >substantive reply. Thanks for the patience. >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > >> > Are increasing militancy and non-secularism appropriate indological >> > pursuits? If so, it would be interesting to see unemotional >> scholarship >> > on why Hindu militancy is rising at a disproportionately higher rate >> than >> > other militancy. It would also be interesting to try and relate the >> ebbs and >> > tides of secularism in India compared with experiences of other >> cultures. >> >> India is being remade in the image of Pakistan, Iran and Iraq. >> Another aspect of semitic transformation of Hinduism? >> >> Swaminathan Madhuresan >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> DO YOU YAHOO!? >> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > [admin note: changed date from Fri, 4 Jan 1980 02:15:24 -0500] From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Thu Jan 28 21:57:07 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 00:57:07 +0300 Subject: Andronovo culture Message-ID: <161227045773.23782.17356763771664669097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Thu Jan 28 00:50:08 MSK 1999 >Dear members of the list, >do any of you have any bibliographic references to the Andronovo culture? >(I don't speak Russian, unfortunately). Dear Lars, here are some titles that may be of use to you: Brjusoff A. Sur l'origine de la culture d'Andronovo. - A Pedro Bosch-Gimpera. Mexico, MCMLXIII. Gening W. The Cemetery at Sintashta and the Early Indo-Iranian Peoples. - JIES, 1979, vol.9. Griaznov M.P. Southern Siberia. Geneva, 1969. Kuzmina E.E. Stages in the Development of Wheeled Transport in Central Asia during the Aeneolithic and Bronze Ages. - Soviet Studies in History. 1983, vol.XXII, N.1-2. Kuzmina E.E. Die urgeschichtliche Metallurgie der Andronovo-Kultur. - Zeitschrift fUr Archaeologie. 1991, Bd. 25/1. Kuz'mina E.E. Horses, chariots and the Indo-Iranians: an archaeological spark in the historical dark. - SAA-1993, Helsinki, 1994, vol.I, pp. 403-412. Mallory J. In Search of the Indo-Europeans. L., 1989, p. 285 (index). As for the most important discovery of recent years, the triple circular city of Arkaim ("Tripura" in the South Ural), I am sure there must be some publications in Western languages by the excavator: ZdanoviC. Unfortunately, I cannot give any exact references. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Fri Jan 29 10:04:47 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 04:04:47 -0600 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony Message-ID: <161227045785.23782.10198022962875416331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:58:55, Sreenivas Paruchuri wrote: >But, recently I heard that it was performed even before; i.e. during Chola >period also. I am looking for earlier; pre-naayaka, references if any.... >I am more interested in Sastra-ic references (providing base/legitimation) >to this ceremony. Dr. Drodzowicz provided one so far. According to Ron Inden in his _Reconstructions_ of the Rashtrakuta Imperial formation, as performed by that dynasty's founder Dantidurga in the 8th century: cf. Inden, Ronald _Imagining India_ (Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1990), p. 247: _A successor of Dantidurga, Amoghavarsha I (814-c.878), describes his ancester as the king 'by whom the lesser kings beginning with the Gurjara lord were made into gatekeepers (pratihAra) when the Great Gift called the Golden Embryo was celebrated at UjjayinI by princes.'_ n. 28 ___________[still quoting] n.28 _My translation of v. 9: hiraNyagarbham rAjanyairujjayanyAM yadAsitaM/ pratihARkritaM yena gurjayarezAdirAjakam// (Sanjam Plates, in D.R.Bandarkar (1925-6). R.G. Bhandarkar (1928:63) ignored the Hiraynagarbha and simple said: 'At Ujjayni he gave large quantities of gold and jewels in charity." I believe Inden has written about this ceremony elsewhere*--he certainly likes to talk about it--and a major sastric source for him is the _Visnudharmottara Purana_. * Possibly here: Inden, R. "Ritual, Authority and Cyclic Time in Hindu Kingship," in Kingship and Authority in South Asia, John F. Richards, ed. South Asian Studies Publications, no. 3. Madison: University of Wisconsin, l978. It's been years, but for what it's worth [without checking], I don't think the Pallavas claimed to have performed this ceremony [azvamedhas and rAjasUyas, yes] Michael Rabe SAIC, SXU, Chicago From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 29 13:18:41 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 05:18:41 -0800 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony Message-ID: <161227045789.23782.11622237552418765633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Rabe wrote: >It's been years, but for what it's worth [without checking], I > don't think the Pallavas claimed to have performed this ceremony >[azvamedhas and rAjasUyas, yes]. Pallavas continue the old tradition. Kings in Sangam texts say they performed azvamedhas and rAjasUyas. Recently, those Kings' coins have been unearthed (cf. R. Krishnamurti, Sanham era coins, Madras) with a horse tied in a post, etc., Trivandram King performed hiraNyagarbha because Kerala was originally ruled by ParasurAma. To be saved from the sin of brahmicide, they were told of a parihAra. They performed hiraNyagarbha, and as a penalty, every day in the morning they donate two pieces of cloth (veshTi) to before entering PadmanAbha temple. I hear it is practised even today. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 29 15:00:34 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 07:00:34 -0800 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony Message-ID: <161227045793.23782.1491987915129076869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is Danti Sakthi ViTanki a Rashtrakuta Princess? Dantidurga, the Rashtrakuta founder performs the hiranyagarbha. His descendent, Amoghavarsha boasts about it many years later. Then, may be, Danti Sakti ViTanki makes Raja Raja Chola I, her husband, to do hiraNyagarbha at TiruvisalUr! Kind regards, Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM Fri Jan 29 14:06:08 1999 From: JP_STEPHENS at CLASSIC.MSN.COM (Stephen) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 09:06:08 -0500 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony Message-ID: <161227045791.23782.16132491577743116591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone please tell me where I could find more info on the Travancore Kings? Thanks. sujatha From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 29 17:15:55 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 09:15:55 -0800 Subject: marAThI bELA (jasmine) Message-ID: <161227045795.23782.11120540903484142621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Marathi language, bELA refers to jasmine flower. In KannaDa, we express `idu beLLagidE' for `this is white'; and `idu biLiya baNNa' for `this color is white'. Note the jasmine is white in color, and KannaDa beLLe and Tamil veLLai means 'white' color. Then, is the jasmine `bELA' in Marathi related to the Dravidian root for white (beLLe, veLLai)? Does KannaDa and/or Telugu use `bELA/bEla' for mallige? Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 29 20:03:43 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 12:03:43 -0800 Subject: marAThI bELA (jasmine) Message-ID: <161227045803.23782.14169995045042490171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > I have not known this word in Marathi in this sense. Marathi words for > different varieties of jasmine are 'mogaraa', 'jaai', 'jui', and > 'raat-raa.nii', and I have never heard bELA. > Madhav Deshpande Got this from Indology archives. S. Krishna (mahadevasiva at hotmail.com) wrote so on 1 May 1998 under the title, Re: Beluur and Belgaum. Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Jan 29 18:06:45 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 13:06:45 -0500 Subject: Summer Sanskrit at University of Chicago Message-ID: <161227045798.23782.18339298595945093290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Magier, I would appreciate it if you could forward the following message to any South Asia related lists. Many Thanks, Lawrence McCrea University of Chicago ************************************************************************************ The University of Chicago will be offering the following Sanskrit courses in the summer of 1999: INTRODUCTORY SANSKRIT 1, 2, 3 (South Asia 250-251-252) June 21 - August 20, Monday - Friday, 10:00 - 12:00 AM This course sequence fulfills the Common Core foreign language requirement. The first half of the course sequence is spent mastering the reading and writing of the Devanagari script and studying the grammar of the classical Sanskrit language. The remainder of the course sequence is devoted to close analytical reading of simple Sanskrit texts, which are used to reinforce the grammatical study done in the first half of the course. The aim is to bring students to the point where they are comfortably able, with the help of a dictionary, to read simple, narrative Sanskrit. INTERMEDIATE SANSKRIT 1, 2, 3 (South Asia 253-254-255) June 21 - August 20, Monday - Friday, 12:00 - 2:00 PM This course sequence is designed for students who have studied the basics of Classical Sanskrit grammar and have some experience in reading simple Sanskrit texts-- typically at least one year of prior study. The courses will consist of the reading of extended passages of Sanskrit epic, dramatic, and poetic works and, depending on time available and student interest, narrative and/or philosophical prose. The goal of the course is to develop facility in reading by exposing students to a variety of styles and genres of Classical Sanskrit literature. *********************************************************************************** From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 29 21:24:43 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 13:24:43 -0800 Subject: marAThI bELA (jasmine) Message-ID: <161227045812.23782.1125899314214824164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >There is indeed the Marathi word bel (Skt. bela-) referring to the >specific tree whose leaves are offered to Shiva, i.e. belapatra, >and whose fruit are supposed to have medicinal properties. > But this obviously is different from anything like jasmine. Dear Prof. Deshpande, Greetings. Vaguely remember when myself and Palaniappan were saying that BeLagAm is related to a Tamil cognate, "vEL"., S. Krishna said BeLa + gAma (grAma) means jasmine village. I think he mentioned "bELA" means jasmine in Marathi. I was skeptical then. beLagAma may have nothing to do with jasmine (Ta. mallikai). jasmine is a bush whereas bilva is a big tree. Have a question on vilva/bilva in Sanskrit: 'vilva' leaves are the most sacred for Lord 'Siva. Tamil has two vilva/bilva trees. One is 'kUviLam', the other being 'karuviLam'. Both have medicinal values. One (or both?) is called "viLAm" tree. Elephants particularly like fruits from "viLam/viLaam" trees. Also, karuviLam and kUviLam are used in Tamil metrics of prosody for measuring word lengths. Used as mnemonic formulas. Ta. viLam/viLaam - Are there any relations to Sanskrit vilva/bilva? Sincerely N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Jan 29 19:31:53 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 14:31:53 -0500 Subject: marAThI bELA (jasmine) In-Reply-To: <19990129171555.18466.rocketmail@web306.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227045800.23782.2265668971371168039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have not known this word in Marathi in this sense. Marathi words for different varieties of jasmine are 'mogaraa', 'jaai', 'jui', and 'raat-raa.nii', and I have never heard bELA. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > In Marathi language, bELA refers to jasmine flower. > > In KannaDa, we express > `idu beLLagidE' for `this is white'; and > `idu biLiya baNNa' for `this color is white'. > > Note the jasmine is white in color, and KannaDa beLLe > and Tamil veLLai means 'white' color. > > Then, is the jasmine `bELA' in Marathi related > to the Dravidian root for white (beLLe, veLLai)? > > Does KannaDa and/or Telugu use `bELA/bEla' for mallige? > > Swaminathan Madhuresan > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Jan 29 20:49:40 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 15:49:40 -0500 Subject: marAThI bELA (jasmine) In-Reply-To: <19990129200343.23876.rocketmail@web305.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227045805.23782.12531580583966399600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is indeed the Marathi word bel (Skt. bela-) referring to the specific tree whose leaves are offered to Shiva, i.e. belapatra, and whose fruit are supposed to have medicinal properties. But this obviously is different from anything like jasmine. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > -Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > > > I have not known this word in Marathi in this sense. Marathi words > for > > different varieties of jasmine are 'mogaraa', 'jaai', 'jui', and > > 'raat-raa.nii', and I have never heard bELA. > > Madhav Deshpande > > Got this from Indology archives. S. Krishna (mahadevasiva at hotmail.com) > wrote so on 1 May 1998 under the title, Re: Beluur and Belgaum. > > Swaminathan Madhuresan > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Fri Jan 29 20:54:26 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 15:54:26 -0500 Subject: marAThI bELA (jasmine) Message-ID: <161227045807.23782.18178566158736645899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *There is indeed the Marathi word bel (Skt. bela-) referring to the *specific tree whose leaves are offered to Shiva, i.e. belapatra, and whose *fruit are supposed to have medicinal properties. But this obviously is *different from anything like jasmine. * Madhav Deshpande I think Marathi bela- is called in Tamil as 'vilvam'. /Selvaa From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Jan 29 20:56:53 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 15:56:53 -0500 Subject: marAThI bELA (jasmine) In-Reply-To: <199901292054.PAA11223@valluvar.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <161227045809.23782.640968462642551307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should correct myself. The Sanskrit word is not bela-, but bilva. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, C.R. Selvakumar wrote: > *There is indeed the Marathi word bel (Skt. bela-) referring to the > *specific tree whose leaves are offered to Shiva, i.e. belapatra, and whose > *fruit are supposed to have medicinal properties. But this obviously is > *different from anything like jasmine. > * Madhav Deshpande > > I think Marathi bela- is called in Tamil as 'vilvam'. /Selvaa > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Jan 30 02:25:03 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 99 02:25:03 +0000 Subject: Books on Time (was Re: Special Characters & Unicode) In-Reply-To: <199901281924.OAA06717@del2.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045814.23782.9857292866614652729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Sanjeev, The following message which you posted yesterday to INDOLOGY looks awfully like an advertisement. It is certainly not a direct answer to the question posed. I am letting it go this time, but if this happens again, I shall cancel your subscription to INDOLOGY. This list is for the exchange of scholarly knowledge, not the promotion of commerce. If you have a book site which you would like publicized, you are free to write to me and ask for the site to be added to the INDOLOGY "book shops and publishers" web page. Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, indtimes at del2 wrote: > There is a new site at www.indiabookfair.com. It is a nice place for indian > book lovers. The site is having lot of books on different topics. You may > visit here, may be you will get good stuff there. > > sanjeev > > At 09:50 AM 1/28/99 +0100, you wrote: > >Could anyone give me some references to articles or books about the Hindu > >concept of time. Preferably publications from an anthropological point of > >view. > >Many thanks, > > > >Victor > > > > > -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sat Jan 30 02:35:13 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 99 07:35:13 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990125003517.0085fc20@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045817.23782.5035355678327772132.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> PARVATA-4 There is evidence that in karanataka also "parvata" is used for zrIparvata. 1. Kittel's Kannada-English Dictionary (Revised and Enlarged Edition), University of Madras, vol III, 1970. parvatamillikhArjuna = siva of srigiri 2. "...dEvarAyanavara makaLu parvatayanavaru... dEvarAyanavara makkaLu ^^^^^^^^^ parvatanavaru....." ^^^^^^^ Epigraphia Carnatica, vol 3, p.98, Inscription 135, lines 5,40. Name of a person parvataya or parvata. 1492 A.D. 3. "....cikavIraNODeyara sisyaru parvathadEvaru...." ^^^^^^^^ Epigraphia Carnatica, vol 3, p.300, Inscription 209, lines 5-10. Name of a person. 15th century. 4. "...parvata maThada vIrasaMgappa svAmigaLu...." ^^^^^^^ Epigraphia Carnatica, vol 4, p.261, Inscription 397, lines 8-9. 1671 A.D parvata maTha must be a maTha either at zrIzailam or its local branch. 5. "...paruvatamalla naMjana hOla ugrANa..." ^^^^^^^^ Epigraphia Carnatica, vol 5, p.372, Inscription 16, line 553. 1749 A.D. paruvatamalla is the name of a person. 6. There is 16th century vIrazaiva poet by name parvatadEva. 7. There is a 17th century vIrazaiva poet by name parvatazivayogi. regards, sarma. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Jan 30 14:40:30 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (michael witzel) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 99 09:40:30 -0500 Subject: Summer Sanskrit at Harvard In-Reply-To: <199901291911.OAA19498@smtp4.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <161227045824.23782.10537037659525965636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those interested in 1st year Sanskrit, I attach an update of last year's announcement. This course has been taught since 1988. (An update will follow) M. Witzel > ======================================================================= > > > SUMMER SANSKRIT at HARVARD. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > SANS S-101 Elementary Sanskrit > (8 units) Monday-Thursday 3:30 - 6 p.m. > June 22 - August 14; exam period Aug. 11-14 > Instructor: Michael Witzel > > This course, equivalent to two semesters of course work, will > enable students to acquire the basic reading skills in Sanskrit. Stress > will be placed on learning the Devanagari script, basic grammar and > essential vocabulary. Emphasis will also be given to correct > translation of passages from simple narrative literature to the epics. > > Fees: Application fee (nonrefundable $35) > > Tuition (credit or non-credit): 8 unit course: $ 3,160 > > Health insurance $95 (required if not covered by an American > carrier) > > On-campus housing (if desired): room and board, eight week session: > $ 2,640 > (Housing deposit $ 580) > > Registration by mail, fax (credit card only, with full tuition and fees) > through June 3. > > Late registration June 4 - June 21 ($50 late fee). > > Catalogues/Information > from Harvard Summer School, 51 Brattle Street, Cambridge MA > 02138, USA > phone 617- 495 4024 > > >On-line catalogue: >================= > > http://summer.dce.harvard.edu > http://www.harvard.edu/summer > > gopher.harvard.edu > > >For assistance call 617 496 2001 (Monday-Friday 9am-5pm) > Michael Witzel DEPARTMENT OF SANSKRIT AND INDIAN STUDIES HARVARD UNIVERSITY 2 DIVINITY AVENUE CAMBRIDGE, MA 02138, U.S.A. (617) 495-3295 FAX: (617) 496-8571 direct: 496-2990 email witzel at fas.harvard. edu home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage/.htm From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sat Jan 30 20:08:44 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 99 14:08:44 -0600 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony Message-ID: <161227045826.23782.6322084382125401704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:21:01 EST, you wrote to: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU, jaybee at TM.NET.MY, sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM, beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU, smadhuresan at yahoo.com >Dear Scholars, >Because of the new Indology policy of numerical quotas on posting, I am not >posting this on Indology. >Sreeni can look for early evidence of hiraNyagarbha in his native Andhra. The >Ipur plates of Govindavarman's son Madhavavarman of the viSNukuNDin dynasty of >zrIparvata say that the son performed hiraNyagarbha. EI , vol. 17, #20, >p.334-337, article also gives references for other hiraNyagarbhas maTTepAd >plates of dAmOdaravarman (EI, vol. 17, #18), and gOraNTla plates of attivarman >(IA, Vol. 9, p.102) Once again, I'm very impressed with the precision and depth of your knowledge! Surely the Hiranyagarbha ceremony must go way back in time...very interesting stuff [gold is. :^)]. >This is a note for Michael. >according to legends, kumArila bhaTTa, the philosopher is said to have >committed self-immolation out of guilt. If you are still interested in >pursuing, I can give references. Please do...plus any to any textual references to fire walking, at the Draupadi temples or otherwise....do you agree that their might be a connection the the agni-pariksha idea? Showing one's sanctity in this way? Maybe not, of course, but it's a scholarly hunch I'd like to corroborate or nulllify via textual sources... Good to hear from you personally again, Warm Regards to you too, Michael > >Regards >S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 30 23:52:56 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 99 15:52:56 -0800 Subject: [q] Seeking information on "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony Message-ID: <161227045831.23782.7654267154453927131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >according to legends, kumArila bhaTTa, the philosopher is >said to have committed self-immolation out of guilt. If you >are still interested in pursuing, I can give references. <<< Please do...plus any to any textual references to fire walking, at the Draupadi temples or otherwise....do you agree that their might be a connection the the agni-pariksha idea? Showing one's sanctity in this way? Maybe not, of course, but it's a scholarly hunch I'd like to corroborate or nulllify via textual sources... >>> Have seen few references on fire walking in Draupadi Amman temples in India, in Fiji too. (will look for them). My feeling is they have nothing to do with Sita's agni parIksa. Prof. Alf Hiltebeitel will know much more on fire walking. Your friend, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Sat Jan 30 09:12:17 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 99 17:12:17 +0800 Subject: More "hiraNyagarbha" ceremony In-Reply-To: <19990129150034.26008.rocketmail@web307.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227045821.23782.9822239692694937698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:00 AM 1/29/99 -0800, you wrote: >Is Danti Sakthi ViTanki a Rashtrakuta Princess? > >Dantidurga, the Rashtrakuta founder performs the hiranyagarbha. >His descendent, Amoghavarsha boasts about it many years later. > >Then, may be, Danti Sakti ViTanki makes Raja Raja Chola I, her >husband, to do hiraNyagarbha at TiruvisalUr! > >Kind regards, >Swaminathan Madhuresan The RAshtrakUta Connection is it? Well, I stumbled upon still another episode of Hiranyagabha performed by the ChOlas. It was performed by ParAntaka Chola. 907-953 A.D. He has done both the TulAbAra DAna and the HEmagarbha DAna. This fact is mentioned in hisUdayEndram Copper Plates. ParAntaka was the great great grand-father of RajaRaja I. During his time, the RAshtrakUtas were holding sway over the Deccan and KarnatAka. He was the son of Aditya Chola and ILango Pichchi, who was the daughter of RAshtrakUta Krishna II. He in turn gave his daughter in marriage to RAshtrakUta GovindaVI. RAjaRAja's paternal grandmother was the Vaidumba princess, KalyANi. Just before RajaRaja came to throne, the RAshtrakUtas were overthrown by the Western ChAlukyas. Almost immediately they became the sworn enemies of the ChOlas. But the RAshtrakUtas were still lingering until the late 10th century. It is quite possible that RAjaRAja's marriage with a RAshtrakUta princess to have taken place. A diplomatic manoever made to off-set and imbalance the delicate power-structure of the South. But the question, "Was Danti Sakti Vitanki, a RAshtrakUta princess?" It can't be established at present. But the possibilities do exist. But why do we have to assume that the ChOlas did the Hiranyagarbha under RAshtrakUtan influece? The early Tamil kings of the Sangam Age were already performing the RajasUya and Asvamedha sacrifices. There was a PANdya king, PalyAgasAlai Mudhu Kudumi PeruValzhudhi- the "MudhuKudumi PeruValzudhi of many YAga SAlas". Some square coins belonging to PeruValzudhi with the emblem of a horse have been found. One early ChOla of Sangam Age- RAjasUyam VEtta PerunaRkiLLi earns his name because of having performed the RAjasUya sacrifice. Regards Jayabarathi =================================== From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sat Jan 30 22:51:36 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 99 17:51:36 -0500 Subject: 30th January, 1948 -- Mahatma Gandhi assassinated Message-ID: <161227045828.23782.2366942028760492146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just thought it would be important to remember this day. -Partha Banerjee ___________ On the 30th of January 1948, within less than a year of the Indian independence, Nathuram Godse, a Hindu zealot from the western Indian state of Maharashtra, shot and killed Mahatma Gandhi at a prayer meeting in Delhi. Nathuram Godse was a prominent member of the RSS and a close associate of its founder Dr. K. B. Hedgewar. Just before the assassination, however, Godse "left" the RSS and joined another Hindu supremacist group Hindu Mahasabha. _______________________ Footnote: What is the truth about Godse's RSS connection? ... Godse himself had stated before the Court: "I have worked for several years in RSS and subsequently joined the Hindu Mahasabha..." (Godse, Gopal: "May it Please Your Honour: Statement of Nathuram Godse"). The most significant is the revelation by his brother about the last moments of his life: "On reaching the platform they recited a verse of devotion to the Motherland: "Namaste sada vatsale matribhume..." [This is the RSS prayer sung even today - PB]. The above is quoted from D. R. Goyal: Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh . Radha Krishna Prakashan. New Delhi. 1979. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 31 03:45:44 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 99 19:45:44 -0800 Subject: Draft 7-bit Indic transliteration scheme Message-ID: <161227045833.23782.11661912424717844580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Stone, I enjoyed looking at the transliteration scheme for all Indian languages. Grand achievement indeed! The main web page is at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm For vowels and gutturals, http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trd203c.htm For palatals-semivowels, http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trd203d.htm For sibilants, http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trd203e.htm For extensions and ancient forms, http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trd203f.htm A suggestion: Along with the eleven scripts considered, a column might be added for Grantha script of writing Sanskrit. Some reasons to include the aesthetic Grantha alphabets are: It is a classic script important historically, 'SaivAgamas were printed using Grantha characters and Srivaishnava manipravala works were also using the grantha script. In addition all the Dravidian language scripts and the South East Asian scripts have a relationship to Grantha. For a look at the Grantha alphabets: 1) K. Venugopalan, A primer in Grantha characters, South Asia books 2) Paulinus a S. Bartholomaeo, Dissertation on the Sanskrit language. A reprint of the original Latin text of 1790, together with an introductory article, a complete English translation, and an index of sources by Ludo Rocher. Amsterdam Studies in the Theory and History of Linguistic Science. Series III - Studies in the History of Linguistics. Volume 12. (Amsterdam: John Benjamins B.V., 1977) With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pnorth98 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 31 17:39:36 1999 From: pnorth98 at HOTMAIL.COM (Peter North) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 99 09:39:36 -0800 Subject: History of fireworks in India? Message-ID: <161227045840.23782.11842096202030333370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi it's said that salpetre has been used by Indians for fireworks before Brits/Moslems arrived to the subcontinent. Can anyone please send me email of references where such activity has taken place in India during this time? Thanks Peter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pnorth98 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 31 19:01:49 1999 From: pnorth98 at HOTMAIL.COM (Peter North) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 99 11:01:49 -0800 Subject: Nalanda University Message-ID: <161227045843.23782.5711815370543208178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I've read accounts about the ancient Nalanda University near Patna, Bihar (India) being destroyed during the early 12th cent. by Moslem invaders (khalji?). It's said that a large section of the residents there were killed. Does anyone have a detailed account of what happened there and which centers were actually destroyed? thanks again. peter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jan 31 09:26:31 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 99 14:26:31 +0500 Subject: new online magazine on Kannada in English Message-ID: <161227045835.23782.5666151101232319322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since two weeks, the English-language quarterly journal of the Karnataka Sahitya Akademy, _Aniketana_ (named after the well-known poem by Bharatiya Jnanapith laureate Kuvempu), is available online. In a circular letter d. 14.1.1999, the editor has this to say about this new effort: "Aniketana has earned the distinction of being the first regional language literary journal in the nation to have entered the cyberspace. Our Web site, which is wholly dedicated to the promotion of Kannada language and literature, is a humble, but, a committed effort towards diversifying the contents of the Internet. The effort comes at a crucial juncture in history when the ill-effects of 'global monoculture' through the Internet are being widely debated." The web address is: http://www.aniket.com Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Jan 31 16:48:31 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 99 21:48:31 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990130073513.0085b580@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045838.23782.1679985568637068097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NAGARJUNKONDA/POTALAKA -1 In the time of ikSvAku kings what is now called nAgArjunakoNDa could have been known as siripavata. In one of the inscriptions obtained here it is said "ziripavatE vijayapuriya puvadisAbhAgE vihArE culadammagrIyaM cetiyagharaM." EI, vol XX, No.1 nAgArjunakoNDa is a part of the zrIparvata range and therefore there is nothing strange in its being called zrIparvata. vijayapuri was the capital of ikSvAkus. On nAgArjunakoNDa there are temples dedicated to puSpabhadra(ziva), mahAsEna (skanda), aSTabhujasvAmi(viSNu) and harIti(sakti). These are besides the buddhist caityaAs and vihArAs. Very close to nAgArjunakoNDA is waterfalls called "etti pOtala". The word "pOtala" means waterfalls and "etti" means "lifted high". Perhaps the naGarjunakoNDA mountain was also known among bhikkus as "pOtalaka", a mountain in the vicinity of "pOtala" (=waterfalls) "ka" being a sanskrit pratyaya hiving the meaning "related to". This is the identification I am proposing. This waterfalls can be seen from the nAgArjunkoNDa is only a few kilometers from it. regards, sarma. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Tue Jan 5 14:30:25 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 09:30:25 -0500 Subject: NEW: Shankalu list for Rationalist Hindus Message-ID: <161227044600.23782.9837729831516351750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Description: Shankalu is a Sanskrit word meaning a person who raises > question in order to learn more about any issue without any preconceived > notions and is ready to challenge any authority or in other words he has > no 'sacred cows'. This list is basically for communication amongst people > who were raised as Hindus but have since grown out of the straight jacket > of the religions. There are many lists for non-believers of Christian > dogma and Bible etc but none that I know of which does the same kind of > analysis of the Hindu scriptures. The list is not moderated and open to > people raised in other religions too if they are interested in the > critical analysis of Hindu scriptures. It is not to be used as a means for > missionaries of other religions to find fault with Hindu religions or > philosophy and/or to collect ammunition for converting Hindus to their own > cults or faiths. > > To subscribe send a blank e-mail to: > shankalu-subscribe at onelist.com > > To unsubscribe send a blank e-mail to: > shankalu-unsubscribe at onelist.com > > Or, to subscribe at the Onelist Site: > http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/shankalu > > Archives of WisdomSeekers mailings are maintained at > Onelist.Com and can be viewed by pointing your > browser to: > http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/shankalu > > To send email to the owner, use the email adress > a018967t at bc.seflin.org > > Owner of this list can also be reached at > http://www.smart1.net/aditya From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Wed Jan 6 23:17:08 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 18:17:08 -0500 Subject: Patanjali native of Tamil Land and brother of TirumUlar? Message-ID: <161227044675.23782.16083421515163573585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I came across the following: 1. Dr. N. Kandaswamy states "Since Patanjali has been considered to be a native of Chidambaram and his acquaitance in Tamil has been attested by scholars, ...." in his article in English titled "The Rhetorical Tradition in Tolkappiyam" appearing on page 312 of the proceedings of an international symposium conducted in Aug 97, tilted "Tolkappiya IlakkiyakkOtpAtukaL" (meaning "Literary Principles in Tolkappiyam") published by The International Institute of Tamil Studies, Chennai, date of publication:1998. He however does not cite any references. 2. Dr.K.V.Jegannathan states in one of his books (I cannot recall the exact book and it is most likely in his "tirumurukARRuppatai viLakkam") "Patanjali was a brother of ThirumUlar and was a student of DaskhiNAmUrti". 3. All the four students of DakshiNAmUrti, namely Sanan, Sanathkumar et al. are brothers. [found in the appendix of a publication of TuLasidAs's Ramacharita mAnAs; it says these four were the "mind-born" sons of Brahma]. I will give the exact name of the publication later. 4. I am sure I am not the only one that has heard songs and read quite a few articles that associate Patanjali with the NatarAjA of Chidambaram. I would appreciate any comments by the Indology audience. Thanks Chandra. From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Mon Jan 11 23:01:24 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 18:01:24 -0500 Subject: etymology of tree name "maraam" and the geography of the maraam t ree Message-ID: <161227044954.23782.2247297185269070506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone provide the etymology of the word "maraam" used very frequently in Tamil Sangam era literature to denote the tree called "katampu" or "veN (white) katampu"? It also seems to be referred to as "aachchaa" tree. I do not have the English name with me. It is said to have white flowers. A handful of Tamil Gods favor this tree. Murukan especially favors that tree, its flowers, and marram forests. Thirumaal (related to VishNu)is also said to favor this tree. From Tamil literature one gets the impression that this tree was (or still is?) thriving in Tamil Nadu. The ancient poets also liked it so much that in ancient Tamil literature that it has formulaic poetic version too which is "maraaam"; note the *three* "a"s; this is so as to conform to the meters employed in Tamil, undoubtedly the most sophisticated in any language, the already long vowel "aa" was lengthened one more unit of time. Does it grow in North India? Thanks P. Chandrasekaran From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Tue Jan 12 16:12:47 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 99 11:12:47 -0500 Subject: etymology of tree name "maraam" and the geography of the mara am t ree Message-ID: <161227045006.23782.11612159762678712553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I got the following from A.K. Ramanujan's "Poems of Love and War from the Eight Anthologies and the Ten Long Poems of Classical Tamil" Columbia University Press Appendix: Plant Names page 317: English: cadamba oak Tamil : katampu Latin : Anthocephahlus Cadamba Note that the regular English name and the Latin or botanical names both use the original Tamil name for the tree! >???From this a probable cause for suspecting that this tree is special to the classical Tamil land. As for "maraam", the Tamil name for tree is "maram". Another point to note here is that "maraam" sounds as though the cadamba tree is referred to as "the tree". I also read in a text book on carnatic music (or Tamil music) that the tube of the musical (wind) instrument "naagaswaram" or "naathaswaram" unique to Tamil Nadu is made from "aachchaa" tree wood. I also found another name for the tree: "aa" in cilappatikaaram: 2nd centruy AD: "aavum aaramum Ongkina engkaNum" [cilap.: chapter 12[vEttuva vari]: stanza 76] txln: "cadamba oak trees and sandal trees had grown tall everywhere" Ramayanam mentions "maraam" or "aachchaa" tree often. Thanks Chandra -----Original Message----- From: H.M.Hubey [mailto:hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU] Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 8:30 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: etymology of tree name "maraam" and the geography of the maraam t ree Chandrasekaran, Periannan wrote: > > Could someone provide the etymology of the word "maraam" This could be Farsi or borrowed into Farsi because the word "meram" is used in Turkish for a wooded place and I don't think it is from Turkish originally. > used very frequently in Tamil Sangam era literature > to denote the tree called "katampu" or "veN (white) katampu"? > It also seems to be referred to as "aachchaa" tree. This is also strange. Aghach, or aach means 'tree' or 'wood' in Turkic languages. > Thanks > P. Chandrasekaran From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Wed Jan 13 23:38:23 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 18:38:23 -0500 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti Message-ID: <161227045152.23782.690440786507564596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: Mani Varadarajan > > > > Actually, Andal does not refer to the "Pongal" day, > but to the the preparation of sakkarai pongal (sweet > pongal) during the month of maargazhi (December-January) > before Pongal. The day on which sakkarai pongal > is prepared is known today among Tamil Vaishnavas as > as "kUDArai vellum". Andal describes devotees of Vishnu > happily eating this pongal, sweetened by vellum (jaggery), > and so rich with ghee that it drips to their elbows > as they eat it. > ANdAL ThiruppAvai's 27 th poem is the one you must be having in mind: "... kUtArai vellum sIrk kOvin-thA!.... Atai utuppOm athanpinnE pARchoRu mUta ney peythu muzangkai vazhivArak kUti irun-thu kuLirn-thElOr empAvAi" It does not mention that it is sweetened with jaggery or such item. It says "milk rice covered with so much clarified butter (ghee) that the ghee drips to the elbow". Is there any connection with the word "vellum" and the "vellam" (misspelt in the original posting: meaning jaggery)? The first word means "vanquishing (enemies)". > The dish known as Pongal is described in upa-purANAs as > mudga-anna. This preparation is prepared (at least in > orthodox Tamil Vaishnava households) everyday of maargazhi > as an offering to God and then consumed. There is a > reference in a Purana to this practice (Brahmanda Purana?). > > Regarding some other recent discussions: > > The word "bhakti" occurs in the Svetasvatara Upanishad. > The date for this varies depending on whom you ask. > > The Alvars are not the first example of Vishnu bhakti > in the Tamil country. The paripaaDal and silappadikAram > contain lovely poems to Maal, who is none other than > Vishnu. These texts refer to Vishnu bhakti in a rather > advanced state. My surmise is that the Tamil culture > provided a fertile ground for the simultaneous growth > of Jain, Buddhist, and Vaishnava bhakti, followed > shortly thereafter by Saiva bhakti. I agree with this. silappathikAram's (2nd century AD) Aychchiyar kuravai on thirumaal and kunRakkuravai on Murukan are telling examples of bhakti with quintessential Tamil sentiments and formalisms. ThirumurukArruppatai is even more serious form of Bhakti composition. I feel that if there was any Bhakti in Jainism and Budhdhaism it must have been basically derived from the preexisting bhakti sentiments and practices. > > Mani > From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Thu Jan 14 00:03:14 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 19:03:14 -0500 Subject: Pongal/Sankranti Message-ID: <161227045160.23782.11250812452494143572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: N. Ganesan [mailto:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] >> > "... > kUtArai vellum sIrk kOvin-thA!.... > Atai utuppOm athanpinnE pARchoRu > mUta ney peythu muzangkai vazhivArak > kUti irun-thu kuLirn-thElOr empAvAi" > > If this is the poem that Mani Varadarajan is > talking of Sakkarai Pongal, it is only > talking of cooked rice (cORu) mixed with > milk (pAl). This is not Pongal. > I deliberately translated this to "milk rice" to point out the problem. If Mani meant Thiruppavai then this the closest text to pongal one can find. (I have committed to memory all poems of ThiruppAvai as I recite at least one poem everyday throughout the year and )I could not find any text closer to pongal than this. Does Mani have in mind some other composition of ANdAL? chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Thu Jan 14 21:05:25 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 16:05:25 -0500 Subject: GItOpadesa/Arjuna/Tamil Nadu temples/AzvAr texts Message-ID: <161227045224.23782.16003003045986499671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About Krishna/Arjuna/Gita: Gist: ThiuvallikkENi temple *the* gItOpadEsa temple does not have that form as the image for the main deity. The history of the temple also does not clearly explain how that temple came to be assocaited with Krishnaa the charioteer. Another important temple near pUmpuhaar also has the same status. Only the auxiliary deity (uRchavar or festival deity) has that form. auxiiary deities are vulnerable to "adaptation" ;) as the socio-reliogious environment changes over the centuries. 1. Found in the book titled "108 VaiNava Thivya ThEsa VaralARu": (blessed by the Sriperum pudhUr matam and won the Tamil Naadu govt prize for the best book in spiritual/religious category) There is a temple called "(Thirup)paarthan paLLi" in the Thirun-aangkUr near pUmpuhaar. This is part of the 11-temple cluster in that town. A poem in "periya thirumozi" (#1318 or 4:8:1) by Thirumangkai aazvaar (7th century AD) says: " kavaLa yaanaik komposiththa kaNNanenRum kAmarusIrk kuvaLa mEkam annamEni koNta kOn ennaanai yenRum thavaLamatu n-Itu n-aangkaith thaamaraiyaaL kELvanenRum pavaLa vaayaaL en matan-thai paarthan paLLi paatuvaaLE". That book also quotes "paathma puraaNam" to state that this was named after Arjunan oen of whose many names is PArththan. It says he was provided water at a critical state of thirst by Thirumaal when he could not get water even from Agaththiyar. even though that book also states "it is *also* said in explaining the basis for its name that Thirumaal revealed himself as per the goal of varuNan's penance in the form of "paartha saarathi" and its original name of "paarththa saarathip paLLi" ended up in the current form. In any case the god's main image in the temple is not in the "paarththa saarathi" format; the uRchavar is called "paarththa saarathy". It says the main image is called "thaamaraiyaaL kELvan" as the above paasuram says. neither is there is any quote of any aazvar's text that refers to "gIta upadEsA". The closest it comes to is the name of the town quoted in the above text. By the way, "is paarththan" in ancient Tamil texts clearly a reference to Arjunan? I am asking this because because the above poem quoted as the main paasuram by the aazvaar does not even care to mention Arjunan even though it describes other characteristics/episodes (such as breaking the tusk of an elephant) of Thirummal as related to this temple like "thaamaraiyaaL kELvan". By the way, the "alliyath thokuthi" involving breaking off elephant tusk by Thirumaal is one of the 11 prototypical dances of the ancient Tamil drama perofrmed by Maathavi during Indira festival at pUmpuhaar as described in Cilppathikaaram (2nd century AD) Note also that there is another temple in this cluster called "Thiru arimEya viNNakaram" in Thirun-aangkUr housing the Thirumaal whi performed the "kutam" dance or "vessel" or "pot" dance another one of the 11 prootypical dances of ancient Tamil drama. (cilapp. chapter 5) And note that these temples are within the limits of the erstwhile metropolis of pUmpuhaar. I feel that ancient pUmpuhaar (and Cauvery delta area) was *the* Indian centre for Hinduism of its era until the unfortunate tsunami attacked it. I feel that India and Tamil country suffered a great set back due to this and caused the sudden change in Tamil's cultural history such as loss of Sangam era literary tradition, Sangam era religious practices directly related to Tamil agam tradition etc (letting it vulnerable to Jain/Budhha forces) If you think, the pioneering Hindu revivalists such as Sambandhar were from sIrkaazi which is said to have been within the metropolitan limits of anceient pUmpuhaar (actually these temples are very very near sIrkaazi). 2. And now for ThiruvallikkENi: the biggy...;-). The paasuram quoted in the specific book I am looking at *does* not seem to mention Arjua/Gita upadEsam! It only mentions that thirummal served as an ambassador for pANtavar! " inthuNaip pathumaththu alarmakaL thanakkum inpan, n-aRpuvi thanakku iRaivan thanthuNai aayar paavai n-appinnai thanakkiRai, maRRaiyOrk kellaam vanthuNai, panjcha paaNtavarkkaaki vaayurai thUthu chenRu iyangkum enthuNai, en-thai than-thai thammaanaith thiruvallikkENi kaNtEnE" Absolutely no mention of "paarththa saarathy'!!!! The name of the mUlavar (main deity): vEngkata KrishNan vEngkata KrishNan facing the east accompanied by RukmiNi, Balaraaman, Saathyaki, an-ruththan, pradhyumnan . The auxiliary deity (uRchavar or utsavar) is however 'paarththa saarathy". The section of the chapter history of the temple makes a weak attempt at reaching how paarththa saarathy got associated with this temple. It says a king called Sumathi requested Thirummal to reveal his "paarhtha saarathi" form after visiting vEngkatam and he was told to go to BrindhaaraNyam (thuLasi (basil?) forest) for that. Then the text in this book (page 365/ para 3) does not complete the story and abruptly says "..the lrod commanded him to go to ...aaraNyam and Sumathi did accordingly and that is the history of the temple". It does not say that the lord did accordingly! Then the text contnues to give another version of the history of the temple where it does not talk about "paarththa saarathy'! In a gist says that "a *rishi* (sage) by the name of sumathi (and the book adds that he was different from the Sumathi the king) brought a statue of Thirumaal in the form of KaNNan (KrishNaa) with one hand carrying sangku (conch) and another in "thaana muththirai" (or "dhaana mudhraa"?) pointing to his feet. Then it says the rishi also installed additional statues of RukmiNi and Saathyaakiyai one on each side of the main statue. In later notes in the chapter (page 367, item number "I" (that is Tamil "I" ) on this temple, the book says "the lord, as per the desire of King sumathi, appeared here as *vEngkata KrishNan*" which contradicts the already weak attempt at associating this temple with "paarththa saarathy". It even goes so far as to say "since the lord of vEngkatam appeared here as vEngkata krishNan, this temple is also called "iraNtaam thiruppathi" (or second Thiruppathi)". We all know that The Lord VEngkata at Thiruppathi is not associated with "paarththa saarathy".[ refer cilappathikkaram probably the earliest text referring to VEngkatam Thirumaal where the author ILangkO describes kOvalan and kaNNaki encountering a brahmin coming all the way from the TuLu coast (mangalore) to visit Thirumaal in reclining posture at Srirangkam island and in standing posture at vEngkatam hills]. The book says that the utsavar (festival deity) has marks on its face to signify the injuries received from the arrows when he served as charioteer. It also notes that this is one of the three important VaishNava temples along with arangkam (Sriragkam) and kachchi (KaanjchIpuram). Which also raises even more questions about the the antiquity of the KrishNaa/Arjunan/GItOpadEsa/charioteer theory. Well... I hope I have helped the discussion in an objective and substantial fashion. Thanks Chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Thu Jan 14 21:24:10 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 16:24:10 -0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227045226.23782.7666654022881535052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I apologize for leaving out this in the previous posting. The book says later: item #7 (page 368): [I have transliterated exactly the text incluidng punctuation...in that item since the text seems ambiguous to interpretation] --------------------------- 7. 'paarththan than thEr mun ninRaanai' iththalaththuk kaNtEnenRum, 'theLLiya singkamaagiyath thEvaith thiruvallik kENi kaNtEnenpathum' thirumangkaiyain paauraikkum avathaara n-inaivUttukaLaagum. ---------------------------- If you read closely, the the first pair of apostophes ends before the phrase "iththalaththuk" (meaning "at this site"). As the text appears, the author of the chapter seems to quote a text by the aazvaar in a potentially different context to relate to this temple. But we need to explore this fruther. Even otherwise, the book seems to be referring to a text by thirumangkai aazvaar that talks about "he who stood in front of the chariot of paarthan". No coordinates of that text supplied in the chapter. Also it says he stood in front of the chariot and of "paarththan" From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Jan 15 20:10:08 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 15:10:08 -0500 Subject: references to tuLu language in ancient Tamil text Message-ID: <161227045271.23782.15318485301154394632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was asked the following in reference to a posting titled "GItOpadesa/Arjuna/Tamil Nadu temples/AzvAr texts". Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 2:49 PM > To: Chandrasekaran, Periannan > Subject: Silapathikaram > > > > > In ur mail on the Indology list U mentioned that Ilango writes about a > brahmin from the Tulu coast. Does he specifically refer to > Tulu or does > he refer to mangalore. Are there any other references to Tulu in early > tamil literature. > > Thanks. > I had used a label that was misleading textually but accurate conceptually for the region. The text simply says "vanthEn kuta malai maangkaattu uLLEn" [Have come I residing in the town of "maangkaatu" situated in "kutagu mountains"] kuta malai = kudagu (coorg) mountain kuta or kutagu means "west". "coorg" is derived from "kutagu". The text does not use TuLu directly at all. I apologize for the slip. I cannot off-hand recall any references to TuLu in Sangam era tamil texts. The text closest to that region that I know of that Silappathikaaram mentions is "karun-aatu" (interpreted to be "Karanatak") in vanjchikkaaNtam. Other forum members might be able to help you in this regard. chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Jan 15 21:05:18 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 16:05:18 -0500 Subject: etymology of tree name "maraam" and the geography of the mara am t ree Message-ID: <161227045275.23782.12363186055575832900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For a picture of cadamba flower(s) see: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~a8711mab/sld003.htm Somex Sangam era tamil texts describig the flower: from ThirumurugaaRRuppatai 1. " ...........maraaththu uruL pUn- thaNtaar ...". [stanza 11] [txln: "garland made from the globular/round/cylindrical flowers of maraam (cadamba)"] 2. " ... cheng kaal maraaththa vaal iNar.." txln: "the white cluster of maraam flowers which have pink/red leg (stem?)" Looks like one has to take these two diferent texts together to get the full description of the flower. From the picture, it appears that the indivdual flower grows in an unsual cluster with the thin long flowers themselves embedded in a "superflower". chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Jan 15 21:09:51 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 16:09:51 -0500 Subject: etymology of tree name "maraam" and the geography of the mara am t ree Message-ID: <161227045277.23782.8977608540349502773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: H.M.Hubey [mailto:hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU] > Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 8:30 PM > > This could be Farsi or borrowed into Farsi because the word > "meram" is used in Turkish for a wooded place and I don't > think it is from Turkish originally. > Ta. maram = wood or tree. > > used very frequently in Tamil Sangam era literature > > to denote the tree called "katampu" or "veN (white) katampu"? > > It also seems to be referred to as "aachchaa" tree. > > This is also strange. Aghach, or aach means 'tree' or 'wood' > in Turkic languages. > > I rememeber reading that there are supposed to be some similarities between Tamil (Dravidian) and Turkic-Altaic langauges? Is that what we are seeing here? chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Jan 15 22:03:18 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 17:03:18 -0500 Subject: false etymologies and "False Freunde" for Tamil words ending in " -thiram" ? Message-ID: <161227045284.23782.3880799889584455539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is related to Palaniappan's thread on Kumarila Bhatta's criticism of false etymologies. Since I have nothing to say about Kumarila Bhatta's criticism I am using a separate thread. I am addressing words in Tamil ending "-thiram". Examples: Tamil Skt. popular sense of the (Sanskrit) words man-thiram man-thra - chant chiththiram chithra - picture than-thiram than-thra - trick en-thiram yan-thra - machine in-thiran indhra - God Ind(i)ra chUththiram sUthram - a terse verse (pardon the rhyme) Then there are these exotic Tamil words: used in Sangam era Tamil texts which made : paithiram - country [pathirruppaththu: #1. 19:18: "vAzthal IyA vaLanaRu paithiram" txln: "the countries (of enemies) that offer no livelihood #2. maathiram - 1. sky 2.direction [malaipatu katAm: "malai patu katAm mAthiraththu iyampa" txln: "the sound of the elephants on the mountain echoing in all directions] I am under the impression that it is taken for granted in linguistic circles also that the Tamil words appearing here were derived from the Sanskrit words listed to their right. Tamil is assumed to have to "softened" the "-thra" words into "-ththiram" by doubling the consonant "th" and always inseritng the vowel "i". I have already come across a few articles where the word "chiththiram" 's etymology is given as derived from the combination of Tamil roots "chil" + "thiRam". Then I thought about the following famous chUththiram (or sUthram?) on man-thiram in Tolkaappiyam [a few centuries BC] the classic Tamil grammar authored by Tolkaappiyar, student of Agaththiyar (or Agasthya). "niRai mozi maan-thar aaNaiyiR kiLan-tha maRai mozi thaamE man-thiram enpa" [poruL athikaaram: marapiyal???; I can quote the exact coordinates when I get home]. This means: "They (who have preceded me) say that the denying words that were born as commands of those great people who have stood firm in their words". The key words here are: aaNai = command; maRai = maRu + ai = denial. cf. aRai = aRu + ai. Here "denying words" means that the words that deny or reject (maRu) the wrong ways and show the right way. The word maRai is often mistaken to mean only "hide" or "hidden words". But in Tolkaapiyam itself there are places where that word is used clearly not to mean "hidden" but "way" (or "treatise").: "narampin maRai..." - the way of the (musical) note = (roughly) music treatise This seems to be very different from the meanings associated with the Sanskrit word "man-thram" which is closer to magic chant etc which is not generally thought to be in the sense of "great persons' commands". In ThirumurukaaRRuppatai, the most distinguished book in Paththuppaattu (the Ten Anthologies ) of classic Tamil Sangam, there is a passage that uses the word "man-thiram": "............................................orumukam man-thira vithiyin marapuLi vazaa an-thaNar vELvi OrkkummE...". Note the phrase "man-thira vithiyin marapu". This does not seem to be clo From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Jan 15 22:45:48 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 17:45:48 -0500 Subject: false etymologies and "False Freunde" for Tamil words ending in " -thiram" ? Message-ID: <161227045286.23782.10520369632759130987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The previous posting was a draft that accidentally got posted. I thought I was sending it to my home email address for further work. Anyway, I give the gist of my thought now that it got posted: man-thiram seems to have some meanings in Tamil in senses that appear to be absent in Sanskrit. chUththiram: given that TolkAppiyam and Tamils handled taxonomy so well and in unique ways to deal with very subtle matters, for example, the akam tradition and the associated taxonomy for Tamil music (thiNai, thuRai, pAlai etc.) For example, the word pAlai is used to denote "mELakartha raagam" and system of music (Ayap pAlai, vattap pAlai etc.) Why would he employ a non-Tamil word for such a strategic element in his book? en-thiram: this is frequently used in the sense of "sugar cane mill" in a few paththuppaattu books which otherwise employ "difficult" Tamil words. The poets could have employed the word "poRi". paithiram and mAthiram do they have "False Freunde" in Sanskrit?. Overall, it looks like words ending in "-thiram" are very interesting linguistically. Aplogize for the sketchy nature of this. chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Thu Jan 21 20:43:37 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 15:43:37 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045512.23782.5976429979866963868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > From: Mani Varadarajan [mailto:mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU] >> > > This can only mean that the Venkatakrishna mUlabEra is > none other than Arjuna's charioteer, Parthasarathy. > Tirumangai Alvar's verses on this temple describe > the god within as "paarthan tan tEr mun ninRAnai", the one > who "stands" in front of Arjuna's chariot -- a reference > to none other than the Gitopadesam. > .......... > > I am sorry to be so argumentative in this thread; but these > unsubstantiated one-line theories are quite annoying. > > Mani > From the description given in "108 vaiNava Divya tEsa varalARu" of "tiruvallikkENi" which I posted earlier, one cannot conclude that the vEnkaTakrishNA is related to pArthasArati. Neither the history of that temple nor the image of the mUlavar helps you in this regard. Only the festival deity (utsavar) is in the pArtasArati form. Even the history of other temples where pArthasArathi is said to be presiding, the main deity is not pArthasArathy. Also it is interetsing to see that even though the standard imagery of the gItOpadEsa is that of both KrishNA and ArjunA both standing *on* the chariot and the former preaching gItA in that posture, the AlvAr says "in front of" the chariot ( of course without mentioning whether he was preaching anything to ArjunA). I wonder what the significance of this discrpepancy is. chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Jan 22 16:35:50 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 11:35:50 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045535.23782.10762281147056829399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: Georg von Simson >> Is it possible that the word for "chariot" has to be interpreted as > "chariot warrior" (i.e. Arjuna) in this context? Remember > that Sanskrit > ratha means both "chariot" and "warrior", "hero". > The pAsuram says "pArtan2 tEr mun2 n2inRAnai" -"the one who stood in front of the chariot of pArtan2". I suppose there is no confusion here. I have found from reading the book "108 vaiNava tivya tEza tala varalARu" that for these temple where "pArtazArati" is said to be associated, two versions of the history are offered, the "charioteer" version being weak or incomplete and the main deity never in that form at all. Only the festival deity, the image that is small and mobile, in the form of pArtazArati!. For "tiru allikkENi" in Madras, the main deity is "veGkata krsihNan". What I find intriguing is that even at the other temple in the 11-temple cluster with tirunAGkUr (near pUmpukAr) as the center by the name of "pArtan2 paLLi", the main deity is *not* in the form of "pArtazArati" and he is called "tAmaraiyAL kELvan2" (the husband of the lotus lady or of tirumakaL or of lakSmi) and only the festival deity is in that form. And as posted by me earlier the temple history also does not mention gItA upadEza; it simply says ArjunA had been granted water by kriSNa when he was extremely thristy after even agastyA failed to produce any from his bottle. The general history of this 11 temple cluster listed says these temples are said to be associated with the episode where tirumAl ("viSNu") pacified zivA (who had started spinning of clones of himself during a vehement dance) by making himself appear in 11 different popular forms from various other famous temple of his such as zRiraGkam, vEGkatam (tirupati) and pArtazArati. And this "pAtan pALLi" is said to be where the lord stayed in the form of "pArtazArati" but the main deity is neither named so nor in is he in that form!. Thanks Chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Jan 22 17:06:28 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 12:06:28 -0500 Subject: gIta upadEza (RE: SV: creation of human kind) Message-ID: <161227045541.23782.10593868940435783406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: Chandrasekaran, Periannan >> > > And this "pAtan pALLi" is said to be where the lord stayed > in the form of "pArtazArati" but the main deity is neither > named so nor in is he in that form!. > I checked the 10 poems composed by "tirumaGkai AZvAr" on the lord at "pArtan2 pALLi" and those 10 poems simply mention the name of the temple "pAtan2 paLLi" but do not mention even any episodes associated with pArtan2 (arjun2A) let alone chariot driving or gIta upadEza. The poems are listed at http://www.tamil.net/projectmadurai/pub/pm0006/praba21inm.html the poems iq uestion are: #1318 -1327. I could view them in a Tamil font (Inaimathi/Anjal) which I am viewing (by letting the Murasu Anjal application be running in the background). chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Jan 22 18:45:39 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 13:45:39 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045546.23782.13614577401079863679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: N. Ganesan [mailto:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] > > The Alvar's words: "pArttan2 tan2 tEr mun2 nin2RAn2ai" - > It means "the guy who stood in front of Arjuna's chariot". > It simply means Krishna as Arjuna's Charioteer. > > To read "the one who stood on top of Arjuna's chariot in the front" Would this not even more clearly denote "charioteer" becasue of the phrase "on top of" and "in the front"? > > PS: A humble request to Thiru. Chandra, Let us all use > Madras univ. transliteration scheme for Tamil. Widely used > Thanks, ng > This looks like the HK convention. I have attempted to follow this in the last few postings. Thanks for your suggestion, Ganesan. My apologies for any confusion or inconvenience in thsi regard. chandra > From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Jan 22 20:26:35 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 15:26:35 -0500 Subject: madhura subhASiNI of mAyUram Message-ID: <161227045554.23782.80080754057761196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: N. Ganesan [mailto:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] >> Example of wrong translation: > --------------------------------- > >> Sanskritization made it into KaavEri, > with puraaNa legends saying the river KaavEri > is the daughter of kavEra muni. > Even CilappatikAram uses both kAviri and KAvEri. > I wanted to make sure that you meant that when CilappatikAram uses KAvEri in the chapter kAn2al vari, it uses in the sense of it transfromed the original word for the invocative(?) case where kOvalan addresses the river. chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Mon Jan 25 14:25:29 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 09:25:29 -0500 Subject: SV: creation of human kind Message-ID: <161227045626.23782.11748855929968698313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan [mailto:Palaniappa at AOL.COM] > > In fact, this is exactly what the meaning is. One can compare the > cilappatikAram lines below. > > tErmun2 nin2Ra ticai mukan2 kANap > pArati ATiya viyan2 pANTaraGkamum (cilappatikAram 6.44-45) > > According to the commentator aTiyArkkunallAr, "tErmun2" > refers to the front > part of the chariot where brahma is standing. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan > Thanks Palaniappan. My copy of cilappatikAram seems to have a printing error: it says: "n2Er mun2 nin2Ra" but the translation says "...cAratiyAka irun-tha" ("...serving as a charioteer") This instance has unequivocally conveyed to me the need for having a good quality publication! chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Mon Jan 25 16:28:29 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 11:28:29 -0500 Subject: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ Message-ID: <161227045633.23782.11151194570883178203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Head offering seems to have continued very late into modern times. I read a news item on the Hindu within the last one year that reported a fresh archaeoloigcal finding somewhere in Arcot district areas (...man2n2Ar..?) where they found an inscription dated around 12th century AD that said some body offered his head to the local god(dess). I also read in a book titled "takkai rAmAyaNam" edited by noted archaeologist nAkacAmi that said sometime in the 15th -16th century AD time frame a body guard of a kAGkEyan king of koGku country offered his own head to the local god so that his master, who was without a child for a long time, would beget a child. Of course, self-immolation has been quite common in Tamil Nadu; self-immolation during the 1965 agitation protesting "Hindi Imposition" etc. chandra > -----Original Message----- > From: N. Ganesan [mailto:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 8:21 AM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_ > > > Head offerings to Goddess Durga occurs in CilappatikAram > (4-5th century AD). > > Fire walkings occur in Draupati Amman temples all over the > world wherever South Indians settled down. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Mon Jan 25 16:35:17 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 11:35:17 -0500 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti story Message-ID: <161227045634.23782.9060509947363988841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: N. Ganesan [mailto:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] > kal Alin2 puTai amarntu, nAl maRai, ARu agkam mutal kaRRa kELvi > This banyan tree is said to have been in Himalaya mountains as per the commentaries I have read. What exactly is a "kal Al" (or "kal" banyan tree) as opposed to the regular "Al" (or regular banyan tree). Does Banyan tree (the kal variety or the regular one,if at all they are different) grow at any reasonable altitude up the Himalayan mountains? chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Tue Jan 26 16:02:29 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 11:02:29 -0500 Subject: Hindu new years day Message-ID: <161227045690.23782.4598629595487293076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: jayabarathi [mailto:jaybee at TM.NET.MY] > >in ordinary mortals like me the janma nakshatra determines > >the birthdays.But for avatars the tithi marks the jayanthi. > >How and why this transformation ? > > > >Krish. > > > Not necessarily so. > We have Visakha for Murugan. > Purba for Devi. > And ONam for tirumAl (viSNu). One of the pattuppAttu (such as maturaikkAJci) mentions something like "the one born on ONam star". tiruvAtirai star is associated with Sivan but I suppose not as his birth star since he is called "piRavA yakkaip periyOn2" or "the greate one who has the body that was never given birth to" [cilappatikAram chapter 5-intiravizavur eTuttakAtai?]. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Thu Jan 28 08:41:26 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 03:41:26 -0500 Subject: Special Characters & Unicode In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227045740.23782.8950968445345805822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 27 Jan 99, JR Gardner wrote: > I know that someone on this list, sometime ago, mentioned a website where > the hexidecimal valus for a + acute, u+ umlaut, etc. could be easily > found-- and of course, one can dig through www.w3.org, but I recall a > nicer, easier to navigate location with the expressed purpose of > presenting this esoterica to those of us toiling in the code pits. As far as I know there are no special hexadecimal values assigned to these codes. I think what you are looking for is a font to print these characters. Except for a very basic set of characters which follow the standard qwerty keyboard rest of them have a key sequence assigned by the designer of the font. If you are using MS windows there is a program called 'charcter map' that can be used to see all the characters defined in a font and the key sequence necessary to print them. Since you are using Pine to compose your mail, you are probably using Unix and I am not sure of the name of the program in Unix. From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Thu Jan 28 21:58:54 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 16:58:54 -0500 Subject: Astronomical names for AsterismsII:Was-Hindu new years day Message-ID: <161227045775.23782.14196349748556729368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: Mani Varadarajan > tiruvONam is also not the "birth" star of mAl. Dear Mani Varadarajan, Here's the promised quote: maturaik kAJci (one of the 10 "long poems" of Sangam era) by poet mAGkuti marutan2 as advise to the Pandiyan emperor pANTiyan2 neTuJceziyan2. stanzas: 590-591: " kaNam koL avuNar kaTanta polam koL mAyOn2 mEya ONam nal nAL" [maturaik kAJci: 590-591] naccinArkkiniyar commentary: says: "mEya = piRanta = born" To quote the fuller context from his commentary: "tiratciyaik koNTa avuNarai venRa pon2n2Arc ceyta mAlaiyin2ai uTaiya mAmaiyai uTaiyOn2 piRanta ONamAkiya nan2n2AL" translation: "mAyOn2 mEya ONam nal nAL" mAyOn2 = tirumAl (viSNu) mEya = born nal = good (auspicio Source: page 406 of "pattup pATTu: mUlamum naccin2Arkkin2iyar uraiyum" by UVS Iyer published by Tamil University, Tanjore, 1961 (mine is 1986 a photo-offset print of the 1961 press print). I am also surprised to see n. in2iyar's interepretation of the "mEya" in this fashion. It is a big news to me. But the cilappatikAram stanzas that I quoted earlier about Siva being "piRavA yAkkaip periyOn2" [cilappatikAram 5:169] "the one with the body that was not given birth to" seems to give some hint that the others were given birth to. Maybe somebody can help here. Regards Chandra