From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon Feb 1 09:12:53 1999 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Anthony P Stone) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 04:12:53 -0500 Subject: Draft 7-bit Indic transliteration scheme Message-ID: <161227045845.23782.15670063510493739564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Jan 30, 1999, N Ganesan wrote: >A suggestion: Along with the eleven scripts considered, a column >might be added for Grantha script of writing Sanskrit. We have not forgotten the Grantha script. The idea is that its transliteration will be covered by looking up equivalent characters. This will apply to other Indian scripts also. >For vowels and gutturals, >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trd203c.htm > . . . Please note that these URLs are for an intermediate working draft of the scheme, and that the final details will be slightly different. Tony Stone Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic scripts. Thinking aloud on transliteration: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm From U.Almoneit at UNI-KOELN.DE Mon Feb 1 14:10:19 1999 From: U.Almoneit at UNI-KOELN.DE (Ute Almoneit) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 15:10:19 +0100 Subject: request for address Message-ID: <161227045848.23782.12473524250056758101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, could anyone please send me the address and e-mail of John J.Paul Assistant Professor of History University of Wisconsin, La Crosse Many Thanks!!! Sascha Ebeling Institute of Indology and Tamil Studies (IITS) University of Cologne Pohligstrasse 1 D-50969 Koeln Germany From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Feb 2 02:39:39 1999 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 18:39:39 -0800 Subject: Aryavarta/bharata varsha Message-ID: <161227045856.23782.10326098845466037217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What immediately comes to mind is Manava Dharma Sastra 2.22. Luis At 11:57 PM 2/1/99 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Dear members of the net, > >I am looking for bibliographic references to "aryavarta"/bharata varsha", >particularly in the Puranic context. I would be grateful if any of you had any >suggestions. From mgansten at SBBS.SE Mon Feb 1 20:49:03 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 21:49:03 +0100 Subject: Ontology of Ramanuja Message-ID: <161227045850.23782.4816523072080295646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (Posted to both Indology and RISA) As a follow-up to my previous question on consciousness as the substance of the jiva in Ramanuja's system of thought, here is a more general query: in all the secondary literature I have seen so far, Ramanuja as well as later vishishtadvaitins are depicted as ontological realists in a full, objective sense; i.e., not only are they said to accept the world as real, but also as independent of and external to (the jiva's) consciousness. For instance, S.M.S. Chari writes (Fundamentals of Visistadvaita Vedanta, p. 158): "According to Visistadvaita, there can be no knowledge which does not point to a corresponding object outside it. [...] This theory presupposes above all the reality of the external object and its existence independent of knowledge. The Visistadvaitin, like other Realists, admits that the objects exist even before they are known [...] It is the function of knowledge to reveal the external world to the knowing subject." 1. Can anyone point me to a place in the writings of Ramanuja (or Yamuna) which explicitly supports not only the reality of the world, but its objective existence outside and independently of consciousness? 2. If not, has there ever been a scholarly attempt to scrutinize the ontological position of Ramanuja, possibly calling his 'objective realist' status into question? Many thanks in advance, Martin Gansten From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Tue Feb 2 03:14:36 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 22:14:36 -0500 Subject: Ontology of Ramanuja In-Reply-To: <20490336532674@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045858.23782.11265870442537657544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >1. Can anyone point me to a place in the writings of Ramanuja (or Yamuna) >which explicitly supports not only the reality of the world, but its >objective existence outside and independently of consciousness? > >2. If not, has there ever been a scholarly attempt to scrutinize the >ontological position of Ramanuja, possibly calling his 'objective realist' >status into question? Two places to look (also secondary literature, but containing citations and references to primary sources) are 1. Anima Sen Gupta's _A Critical Study of the Philosophy of Ramanuja_ Varnasi: Chowkhamba Sanskrit Studies Series Vol. LV, 1967, esp. concerning the notion of acit (pp. 78ff and passim); and 2. John Chethimattam's _Consciousness and Reality_ London: Geoffrey Chapman, 1971, esp. ch. 5 (though drawing mostly on R's Sri Bhasya). Gupta's treatment is much more thorough. In short, the world as acit has reality apart from consciousnesses because the ultimate cause of materiality is Brahman, which is also the ultimate cause of consciousness (cit). Both cit and acit are produced from the same ultimate cause, while each operates within the causal dynamics of its own sphere. The material world functions through its own causal operations. Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Feb 1 22:57:42 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 23:57:42 +0100 Subject: Aryavarta/bharata varsha Message-ID: <161227045853.23782.5901292095013103369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the net, I am looking for bibliographic references to "aryavarta"/bharata varsha", particularly in the Puranic context. I would be grateful if any of you had any suggestions. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 2 13:12:45 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 05:12:45 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227045865.23782.4171038787029423687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri. Sarmaji, Namaskar. In your readings, have you encountered a pre-8th century inscription from Nagarjunakonda mentioning "parvata" and NOT "sriparvata"? If available, can you give that inscription/s please? Yours Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From mgansten at SBBS.SE Tue Feb 2 07:23:57 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 08:23:57 +0100 Subject: Ontology of Ramanuja Message-ID: <161227045860.23782.5341735344105960437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan, Thanks very much for the references; I'll try to locate them. >In short, the world as acit has reality apart from consciousnesses because >the ultimate cause of materiality is Brahman, which is also the ultimate >cause of consciousness (cit). Both cit and acit are produced from the same >ultimate cause, while each operates within the causal dynamics of its own >sphere. The material world functions through its own causal operations. Is this a summary of Gupta's position, or your own understanding of Ramanuja? Best regards, Martin Gansten From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Tue Feb 2 14:02:29 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 09:02:29 -0500 Subject: Ontology of Ramanuja In-Reply-To: <07235703800047@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045869.23782.15813153271821513816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin, >>In short, the world as acit has reality apart from consciousnesses because >>the ultimate cause of materiality is Brahman, which is also the ultimate >>cause of consciousness (cit). Both cit and acit are produced from the same >>ultimate cause, while each operates within the causal dynamics of its own >>sphere. The material world functions through its own causal operations. > >Is this a summary of Gupta's position, or your own understanding of Ramanuja? It is a drastically reduced version of Gupta's reading, but my own is not that far off. Ramanuja's God:world::self:body, i.e., the world is God's body, with individual jivas or atmans knowing the world through their pramanas, suggests something similar. The key category, of course, is acit. Gupta provides numerous citations, including transcribed passages, so it is definitely worth a look. Chitamattam is more critical of Ramanuja, but his critiques sometimes seem off the mark (e.g. accusing Ramanuja of flirting with pantheism, etc.). Happy reading, Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 2 10:01:39 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 10:01:39 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: J. C. Bose Invented Marconi's Wireless In-Reply-To: <01bce73b$beb2b200$0a8073cf@default> Message-ID: <161227045863.23782.9288966915184516134.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr Maharaj, Please do not send full newspaper articles to the INDOLOGY list. I quite understand that you may find a particular article interesting, and indeed so may other people on the list. But this is not a proper use of our list. It is also an infringement of the newspaper's copyright, and if they decided to pursue this in law, it could easily lead to INDOLOGY having to close permanently. The way to deal with this is to provide a short reference to the article so that others can follow it up for themselves. If the article is available online, just give the URL, and a single sentence saying why the article may be interesting to scholars of classical India. Another point is that you posted this same information about JC Bose to the list in November 1997. It is not fresh information, nor is it based on new research by yourself. Finally, the posting was too long. Please try to keep postings to about a single screenfull of text. Thank you. Dominik Wujastyk From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 2 19:20:51 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 11:20:51 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227045883.23782.6437600729963133617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. D. V. N. Sarma wrote: <<< Very close to nAgArjunakoNDA is waterfalls called "etti pOtala". The word "pOtala" means waterfalls and "etti" means "lifted high". Perhaps the naGarjunakoNDA mountain was also known among bhikkus as "pOtalaka", a mountain in the vicinity of "pOtala" (=waterfalls) "ka" being a sanskrit pratyaya hiving the meaning "related to". This is the identification I am proposing. This waterfalls can be seen from the nAgArjunkoNDa is only a few kilometers from it. >>> nAgArjunakoNDA and Mount Potalaka are two different places in Buddhist texts. Both of them are in Southern India separated hundreds of miles. 1) In the GaNDavyUha sUtra, 2nd century AD, Bodhisattva Manjusri instructs Sudhana, the Pilgrim boy and a native of DhanyakaTaha/amarAvatI, to start his pilgrimage from his home town and go south to meet various kalyANamitras. Sudhana travels south further and further and finally meets Avalokitezvara in MOUNT POTALAKA. If Potala is the waterfalls that "can be seen from the nAgArjunakoNDA" which is only about 60 miles southwest from amarAvatI as the crow flies, why does Sudhana go South to DramiDapaTTaNa (Tamil city) Vajrapura first and goes further south to Potalaka? 2) Hsuan Tsang around 640 AD writes that from dhAnyakaTaka he travelled more than 2500 li to reach Kanchipuram. 3000 li SOUTH of Kanchipuram is malakUTa country which is a depot for seapearls. (According to K. A. NilakaNTa Sastri, this refers to the Pandya kingdom.) The malaya mountain with sandal, camphor, and other trees is in malakUTa country. To the east of this is pu-ta-lo-ka (Potalaka) mountain. 3) Following Hsuan Tsang, several scholars in the last 100 years or so, have identified Potalaka as Mt. Potikai/Potiyil/Potiyam whose kuRRaalam waterfalls is well known. Some examples from early 20th century are: Nandolal De, Nalinaksha Dutt, K. A. NilakaNTa Sastri, ... 4) Mount Malaya is known as Potiyil/Potikai in Tamil literature for 2200 years and Monier Williams quotes dakSiNAcala and DaNDin of the Pallava court calls it dakSiNadri. 5) Agastya is the legendary resident of Mount Potikai/Potalaka in Sanskrit and Tamil. Many Tamil 'Saivite texts inform that Agastya learnt Tamil from and a Buddhist text says Avalokitezvara taught Tamil to Agastya. (cf. Indology thread with the title: Where was Panini inspired?). This myth might have its origin in the god "tennavan" (dakSiNAmUrti) of the Potikai/Potalaka mentioned in Maturaik KaaJci, a Classical Tamil text. 6) Hsuan Tsang says that to Paazupata Tiirthikas, Bodhisattva Avalokiezvara appears as Mahezvara. Note that an inscription of 10th century mentioning the presence of pAzupatas has been found at kuRRaalam 'Siva temple. This temple has been praised in Tevaram of the seventh century. 7) We have many Buddhist material on nAgArjunakoNDa. If potalaka was at nAgArjunakONda, why NO inscriptions from nAgArjunakoNDa or texts mentioning nAgArjunakoNDa say anything about the famous Mt. Potalaka there? By the way, does anybody know when the earliest attestation for the name 'pOtala' (waterfalls) is? Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 2 20:17:36 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 12:17:36 -0800 Subject: The only Buddhist epic? Message-ID: <161227045885.23782.5977454685910440328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is maNimEkalai the only Buddhist epic available from Indian Buddhist corpus? Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From janbrz at MICROTEC.NET Tue Feb 2 21:49:48 1999 From: janbrz at MICROTEC.NET (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 13:49:48 -0800 Subject: karmakAra and karmakara In-Reply-To: <36B74377.9F56FDDD@merkur.net> Message-ID: <161227045880.23782.4607502015239510968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Bengali, blacksmith or ironsmith. ---------- > Any suggestion for a translation that goes beyond the > meanings of MW, pWB, PED etc.? > Probably "slave"? or just > "the working for others in untrained fields of work (opposite of > zilpa)"? > From oldthww at HUM.AU.DK Tue Feb 2 14:36:34 1999 From: oldthww at HUM.AU.DK (Heinz Werner Wessler) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 14:36:34 +0000 Subject: Special Characters & Unicode Message-ID: <161227045867.23782.18241387641882335408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Could anyone give me some references to articles or books about the Hindu > concept of time. Preferably publications from an anthropological point of > view. > Many thanks, > > Victor > Dear Victor, I may add (to John Grimes' bibliography) my own dissertation on the concept of time and history in the Vi.s.nupur-a.na (Zeit und Geschichte im Vi.s.nupur-a.na...Bern 1995 [Studia Religiosa Helvetica, Series Altera : 1] - published in German). Its selective bibliography (until 1994) is not meant to be complete on "time in Hinduism", but it contains some interesting titles additional to John Grimes booklist (including A.N. Balslev, to whom Georg von Simson has referred to). Some of these are in English. Hari Shankar Prasad has edited a collection of some relevant articles (as reprints) in a reader, which I find very useful, but non of these is from a specifically "anthropological point of view": Time in Indian philosophy : a collection of essays. Ed. by Hari Shankar Prasad. Delhi 1992 (Sri Garib Das Oriental Series : 111) Yours, Heinz Werner Wessler ________________________________________________________ Dr.Heinz Werner Wessler Indisk Afdeling, Aarhus Universitet Bygn. 327, Ndr. Ringgade DK-8000 Aarhus C Tel.:0047-89422162 e-mail: oldthww at hum.aau.dk From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 2 22:52:23 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 14:52:23 -0800 Subject: Hindu concept of time (was: Special Characters & Unicode) Message-ID: <161227045900.23782.12079354732517853017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I hereby change the subject line of this interesting thread, in case >there are more contributions. Thomas R. Trautmann, author of Dravidian kinship, Aryans and the British in India, has edited a volume: Time: histories and ethnologies, UMP, 1995. It has: 1) the white man's time 2) Indian time, European time ... More later, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 2 21:50:22 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 16:50:22 -0500 Subject: karmakAra and karmakara In-Reply-To: <36B74377.9F56FDDD@merkur.net> Message-ID: <161227045895.23782.2755563240712013177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At least as far as the terms appear in stock lists in Buddhist texts (according to my memory -- I have no notes to hand), they *seem* to be distinguished from dAsa-dAsI, so perhaps the designation is not exactly sociologically the same, hence slave may not be the best understanding. But sometimes or even often such stock lists seem to try to pile as many possible or near synonyms as they can together, so it is hard to get a sense of when true distinctions lurk. Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520 tel. 203-432-0828 From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Feb 3 02:11:56 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 18:11:56 -0800 Subject: Hindu concept of time Message-ID: <161227045908.23782.6342488913780503157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not know if Trautman's edited work includes Mayan's Aintiram. Recently, there was a conference in Kanyakumari. Let me cite from Dr. S.P. Sabharathnam's paper: Principles of cosmic science as set forth in Mayan's Aintiram: "pul.l.ipporul.e_ ezhutturu civan.um: aintiram 128... Translation: eternal substance in the form of the minutest dot...Primal Micro Point, pul.l.i... vaiyamum vin.n.um cir_pamum uyirum meypporul. nilaiyen-ak kalainir_ai vo_n:ga: aintiram 523... Translation: the visible universe, space, all the visible objects governed by proportions, measures and time bound systems, living beings--one should observe all these as the manifest states of Eternal Substance and get himself enlightened by creative consciousness... ka_lamum kal.amum mu_lam un.arttum: aintiram 57...Translation: the primal micro point is indicative of both time and space-field... mu_lappul.l.ic cur..alum nun.porul. ka_la viraivin- kan.akkiyal ar_intu: aintiram 632... Translation: having understood the systematic mechanism associated with the swiftness of Time which revolves with enormous speed at the centre of the Primal Micro Point... ka_lam karutik kan.akkur_a no_kkin-, ka_lame_ pat.aikkum ka_lame al.ikkum, ka_lame ar..ikkum ka_lame_ mar_aikkum, ka_lame_ tut.aikkum kan.ippiyal o_rnte_: aintiram 815... Translation: Time itself creates; Time itself maintains; Time itself brings back everything to its original unmanifest state; Time itself conceals; and at the end, Time itself absorbs everything into its fold... Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Feb 3 02:23:22 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 18:23:22 -0800 Subject: Hindu concept of time Message-ID: <161227045910.23782.12260260954343082675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not know if Trautmann's edited work includes Mayan's Aintiram. Recently, there was a conference in Kanyakumari. Let me cite from Dr. S.P. Sabharathnam's paper: Principles of cosmic science as set forth in Mayan's Aintiram: "pul.l.ipporul.e_ ezhutturu civan.um (aintiram 128). Translation: eternal substance in the form of the minutest dot...Primal Micro Point, pul.l.i... vaiyamum vin.n.um cir_pamum uyirum meypporul. nilaiyen-ak kalainir_ai vo_n:ga (aintiram 523). Translation: the visible universe, space, all the visible objects governed by proportions, measures and time bound systems, living beings--one should observe all these as the manifest states of Eternal Substance and get himself enlightened by creative consciousness... ka_lamum kal.amum mu_lam un.arttum (aintiram 57). Translation: the primal micro point is indicative of both time and space-field... mu_lappul.l.ic cur..alum nun.porul. ka_la viraivin- kan.akkiyal ar_intu (aintiram 632). Translation: having understood the systematic mechanism associated with the swiftness of Time which revolves with enormous speed at the centre of the Primal Micro Point... ka_lam karutik kan.akkur_a no_kkin-, ka_lame_ pat.aikkum ka_lame al.ikkum, ka_lame ar..ikkum ka_lame_ mar_aikkum, ka_lame_ tut.aikkum kan.ippiyal o_rnte_ (aintiram 815). Translation: Time itself creates; Time itself maintains; Time itself brings back everything to its original unmanifest state; Time itself conceals; and at the end, Time itself absorbs everything into its fold... Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From roheko at MERKUR.NET Tue Feb 2 18:27:03 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 19:27:03 +0100 Subject: karmakAra and karmakara Message-ID: <161227045877.23782.17143590512682246012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Any suggestion for a translation that goes beyond the meanings of MW, pWB, PED etc.? Probably "slave"? or just "the working for others in untrained fields of work (opposite of zilpa)"? From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 2 21:01:24 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 21:01:24 +0000 Subject: Hindu concept of time (was: Special Characters & Unicode) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000202163909.0082a340@pat.hint.no> Message-ID: <161227045893.23782.8224717934937945806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hereby change the subject line of this interesting thread, in case there are more contributions. DW From mgansten at SBBS.SE Tue Feb 2 20:42:54 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 21:42:54 +0100 Subject: Ontology of Ramanuja Message-ID: <161227045888.23782.6765637904213033058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert, >John Braisted Carman. _The Theology of Ramanuja._ Bombay: Ananthacharya >Indological Research Institute, 1981. (Indian repr.; orig. Yale Univ. Press, >1974.) Thanks for the reference. Was it meant as an answer to my request for works calling Ramanuja's realism into question? In other words, does Carman doubt that R. was an objective realist? Best regards, Martin Gansten From mgansten at SBBS.SE Tue Feb 2 20:42:56 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 21:42:56 +0100 Subject: Ontology of Ramanuja Message-ID: <161227045890.23782.15680334242303127368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan, Thank you. I am trying to get hold of Gupta's book. >In short, the world as acit has reality apart from consciousnesses because >the ultimate cause of materiality is Brahman, which is also the ultimate >cause of consciousness (cit). Both cit and acit are produced from the same >ultimate cause, while each operates within the causal dynamics of its own >sphere. The reason I asked if this was your own opinion is that I find it a little difficult to reconcile with passages like the following (from the Vedarthasamgraha, ?17b, as translated by van Buitenen): "The individual soul is itself ensouled by Brahman, for the soul is a modification of Brahman because it constitutes His body, as appears from another sruti: '...whose body is the soul' etc. The *non-spiritual entities* in the generic structures of a god, a man etc. *are modifications of this same individual soul* -- which is a modification of Brahman himself -- because they constitute the soul's body. Consequently all these entities are ultimately ensouled by Brahman." Here, acit appears to be a modification of Brahman only mediately, by virtue of being a modification of the jiva (cit) which in turn is an immediate modification of Brahman. This model appears to me to have ramifications quite different from those of a model where cit and acit both evolve immediately from Brahman and exist independently of each other. Best regards, Martin Gansten From george9252 at MSN.COM Wed Feb 3 03:19:35 1999 From: george9252 at MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 22:19:35 -0500 Subject: Ontology of Ramanuja Message-ID: <161227045918.23782.13432774296353501302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is an excerpt from my SIX CLASSICS OF EASTERN PHILOSOPHY (Harcourt Brace 1998). This document is written in Word 97. It is my rendition of a portion of Ramanuja's SHRI-BHASHYA, in which he is criticizing Shamkara's "metaphysical idealism." Ramanuja seems to be supporting a realist metaphysics and epistemology against Shamkara's alleged idealism. Hope you can read it on your computer system. Dr. George Cronk Bergen Community College Paramus, NJ (USA) -----Original Message----- From: Martin Gansten To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Ontology of Ramanuja Dan, Thank you. I am trying to get hold of Gupta's book. >In short, the world as acit has reality apart from consciousnesses because >the ultimate cause of materiality is Brahman, which is also the ultimate >cause of consciousness (cit). Both cit and acit are produced from the same >ultimate cause, while each operates within the causal dynamics of its own >sphere. The reason I asked if this was your own opinion is that I find it a little difficult to reconcile with passages like the following (from the Vedarthasamgraha, ?17b, as translated by van Buitenen): "The individual soul is itself ensouled by Brahman, for the soul is a modification of Brahman because it constitutes His body, as appears from another sruti: '...whose body is the soul' etc. The *non-spiritual entities* in the generic structures of a god, a man etc. *are modifications of this same individual soul* -- which is a modification of Brahman himself -- because they constitute the soul's body. Consequently all these entities are ultimately ensouled by Brahman." Here, acit appears to be a modification of Brahman only mediately, by virtue of being a modification of the jiva (cit) which in turn is an immediate modification of Brahman. This model appears to me to have ramifications quite different from those of a model where cit and acit both evolve immediately from Brahman and exist independently of each other. Best regards, Martin Gansten begin 666 RamaReal.doc MT,\1X*&Q&N$`````````````````````/@`#`/[_"0`&```````````````! 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M____________________________________________________________ M__________________\!`/[_`PH``/____\&"0(``````, ```````!&& `` M`$UI8W)O At 21:49 01.02.99 +0100, Martin Gansten wrote: >1. Can anyone point me to a place in the writings of Ramanuja (or Yamuna) >which explicitly supports not only the reality of the world, but its >objective existence outside and independently of consciousness? > >2. If not, has there ever been a scholarly attempt to scrutinize the >ontological position of Ramanuja, possibly calling his 'objective realist' >status into question? John Braisted Carman. _The Theology of Ramanuja._ Bombay: Ananthacharya Indological Research Institute, 1981. (Indian repr.; orig. Yale Univ. Press, 1974.) Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From buciuman at DEUROCONSULT.RO Tue Feb 2 23:03:49 1999 From: buciuman at DEUROCONSULT.RO (Adrian Buciuman) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 01:03:49 +0200 Subject: info-request Message-ID: <161227045906.23782.11472502161032259351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sirs, I am working to an essay about the way in which India and Britain have influenced each other in matters of culture and civilisation.This may include literature, architecture and arts, movies ,law , medicine , administration , religion and philosophy, outlooks ,privat and every day life ,political ideology , education, transport-railway, economy , high -society , elite's cultural models-the Indian elite used to study in Britain etc. I am also interested in some general facts about multiculturatity and the influences between the former parts of British Empire. If you know some Internet useful resources please e-mail me to buciuman at yahoo.com . Thank you, Adrian Buciuman From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Feb 2 22:35:47 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 01:35:47 +0300 Subject: Aryavarta/bharata varsha Message-ID: <161227045903.23782.11654399725769840468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear Lars, there is a useful article on the subject: S.B.Chaudhuri. AryAvarta. - The Indian Historical Quarterly, vo. XXV, n. 2, June 1949, pp. 110-122. All the best Yaroslav Vassilkov From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 3 12:59:37 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 04:59:37 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227045923.23782.7828772825062386259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NG>By the way, does anybody know when the earliest attestation for NG>the name 'pOtala' (waterfalls) is? DVN Sarma writes: >Not necessary. Taranatha uses names of places which were current >in 13th and 14th centuries. If the place has the name potala in >this period it is sufficient. As far as we know therte is no >evidence that it has been called any thing else. Is there any inscriptional or textual evidence of 'potala' in nAgArjunakoNDa? So far, I have not seen any. References please. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Feb 3 03:33:54 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 08:33:54 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990131214831.008618a0@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227045912.23782.17714474695221278076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NAGARJUNAKONDA/POTALAKA-2 The identification of potalaka with "etti pOtala" is more apt for the following reasons. 1.As can be seen from the name of the Dalailama's palace which is potala palace, the basic word is potala and not potalaka. 2.Taranatha consistently uses "potala" and "potala hill" only in his History of Buddhism 3.ChandragOmi after visiting dhAnykaTaka will try to find a location which preferably buddhist and closer to it and not a place thousands of kilometers away, for his last resting place. regards, sarma. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Feb 3 03:36:26 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 08:36:26 +0500 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains In-Reply-To: <19990202192052.1655.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227045915.23782.6278797527840207420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:20 AM 2/2/99 PST, you wrote: >nAgArjunakoNDA and Mount Potalaka are two different places in >Buddhist texts. Both of them are in Southern India separated > hundreds of miles. > In that case we have to say that potala and potalaka are different and nAgArjunakoNDA is potala. What candragOmi visited is potala not potalaka. Some buddhists who have migrated south might have named their dwelling as potalaka in remembrance of the place they come from. This is avery very common practice. Any way the identification potika or potiyil with potala/potalaka is arbitrary. > >5) Agastya is the legendary resident of Mount Potikai/Potalaka in >Sanskrit and Tamil. Many Tamil 'Saivite texts inform that Agastya >learnt Tamil from and a Buddhist text says Avalokitezvara taught > Tamil to Agastya. (cf. Indology thread with the title: Where was >Panini inspired?). This myth might have its origin in the god >"tennavan" (dakSiNAmUrti) of the Potikai/Potalaka mentioned >in Maturaik KaaJci, a Classical Tamil text. According to rAmAyaNa agastya had an ASram much to the north of tamil nadu whic rAma visited in araNyakANDa. It is well documented in rAmAyaNa. The ashram of Agastya on Malaya in kiSkindhAkANda is itself doubtful. >By the way, does anybody know when the earliest attestation for >the name 'pOtala' (waterfalls) is? Not necessary. Taranatha uses names of places which were current in 13th and 14th centuries. If the place has the name potala in this period it is sufficient. As far as we know therte is no evidence that it has been called any thing else. regards, sarma. > >Regards >N. Ganesan > > > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 3 09:48:43 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 09:48:43 +0000 Subject: [Forwarded] Taxila Academy Message-ID: <161227045921.23782.14689386466615497774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:02:51 -0600 (CST) From: ananya vajpeyi Subject: Re: TAXILA ACADEMY: > "TAXILA ACADEMY" > SUMMER STUDIES IN INDIA, JUNE-JULY '99. > > TAXILA Academy is a summer program in Indian Studies set in Bangalore, > India. It is designed for college students, young professionals, and > other adults interested in learning about India. The program > accommodates up to 30 students from around the world. In 1999, TAXILA > runs for about 6 weeks, from the 18th of June to the 26th of July. > Students at TAXILA Academy select two courses each, from a total of > six courses offered in the Humanities and Social Sciences. Coursework > is supplemented with special lectures, workshops, movie screenings, > and excursions during weekends. Classroom and field experiences > complement one another to enable focussed discussions on a > representative range of subjects concerning India. For more information I have added a link to the Taxila Academy homepage from the INDOLOGY website http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html under "wider resources/institutions". DW -- Dominik Wujastyk http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From rkornman at CSD.UWM.EDU Wed Feb 3 19:06:49 1999 From: rkornman at CSD.UWM.EDU (Robin Kornman) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 11:06:49 -0800 Subject: The only Buddhist epic? In-Reply-To: <19990202201736.10371.rocketmail@web311.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046159.23782.6395476905910790980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm translating a Tibetan Buddhist epic. What is maNimEkalai? You can answer me by private mail if you wish. Robin Kornman >Is maNimEkalai the only Buddhist epic available >from Indian Buddhist corpus? > >Swaminathan Madhuresan > > > > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 3 19:09:21 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 11:09:21 -0800 Subject: Q: KannaDa vacana Message-ID: <161227045943.23782.7696219774102967661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A. K. Ramanujan (Speaking of 'Siva, Penguin classics) translates MallikArjuna occuring in Mahadevi Akka's poems as "Lord white as Jasmine". Is there a Kannada tradition of interpreting mallikArjuna this way? In other words, is there a text that explicitly calls as Izvara as Lord white as jasmine? Are there any KannaDa/Telugu/Sanskrit temple legends saying Izvara is like jasmine flower while bhramarAbA is encircling Him like a honey bee? For example, in Sivanandalahari 50, Sankara compares 'Siva to jasmine. Thanks. A mallikA bouquet! Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Wed Feb 3 16:43:05 1999 From: rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Robert A. Hueckstedt) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 11:43:05 -0500 Subject: Job opening Message-ID: <161227045934.23782.12142929318921835093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ANNOUNCEMENT OF POSITION IN SOUTH ASIAN LITERATURE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA ACADEMIC YEAR 1999--2000 Applications are invited from people of all ranks, from advanced graduate students to full professors, for a one-year position to teach South Asian literature (in English, in translation, or both). Three courses are to be taught on South Asian literature. One should be a broad, introductory level course, and the other two should be seminars, each with a thematic focus, aimed at advanced undergraduates. The successful candidate shall also teach two courses in advanced Hindi or advanced Urdu. Those courses are for students who have had at least two years of previous instruction and are ready to focus on literature. (Note that at UVA a "course" is one semester in length.) The Ph.D. is preferred, but a Ph.D. candidate who is ABD would be considered. Salary will be commensurate with experience. Send CV, proposed course descriptions and three letters of reference to: Associate Professor Robert A. Hueckstedt Asian and Middle Eastern Languages and Cultures B-27 Cabell Hall University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22903 USA rah2k at virginia.edu fax (804) 924-6977 Deadline for receipt of applications is 22 March 1999. The University of Virginia is an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity Employer. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Feb 3 18:11:50 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 13:11:50 -0500 Subject: position announcement from SARAI Message-ID: <161227045938.23782.1554768435964299676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following academic position announcement is being posted to your listserv or mailing list from the ACADEMIC JOBS section of SARAI. Please contact announcers directly for any further information. David Magier SARAI http://www.columbia/edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai =================================================== Position in South Asian Literature: University of Virginia Academic Year 1999-2000 Applications are invited from people of all ranks, from advanced graduate students to full professors, for a one-year position to teach South Asian literature (in English, in translation, or both). Three courses are to be taught on South Asian literature. One should be a broad, introductory level course, and the other two should be seminars, each with a thematic focus, aimed at advanced undergraduates. The successful candidate shall also teach two courses in advanced Hindi or advanced Urdu. Those courses are for students who have had at least two years of previous instruction and are ready to focus on literature. (Note that at UVA a "course" is one semester in length.) The Ph.D. is preferred, but a Ph.D. candidate who is ABD would be considered. Salary will be commensurate with experience. Send CV, proposed course descriptions and three letters of reference to: Associate Professor Robert A. Hueckstedt Asian and Middle Eastern Languages and Cultures B-27 Cabell Hall University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22903 USA rah2k at virginia.edu fax (804) 924-6977 Deadline for receipt of applications is 22 March 1999. The University of Virginia is an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity Employer. From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Feb 3 13:13:53 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 14:13:53 +0100 Subject: LANKAVATARA Sutra - its current research and oldest Manuscripts Message-ID: <161227045926.23782.8574101609660315880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Does anybody knows what is the oldest surviving Sanskrit and Chinese (Taisho 670, 671, 672) manuscripts of Lankavatara and where it is located? I would also like to ask if anybody knows about any current research or translating of this sutra especially in the Chinese version. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Feb 3 14:50:59 1999 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 15:50:59 +0100 Subject: Edhi Foundation Message-ID: <161227045929.23782.4719271716702018355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I am forwarding this request from a colleague who needs to contact the Edhi Foundation. Please reply to: nofsa-net at sum.uio.no Thank you, Ruth Schmidt From: erik.hollie at aftenposten.no >To: nofsa-net at sum.uio.no >Subject: Edhi Foundation >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:27:39 +0100 >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Can anybody help me with the adress, fax-number or e-mail adress to the Edhi >Foundation in Pakistan? > >Erik Hollie >Newsreporter >Aftenposten > *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Feb 3 18:54:58 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 19:54:58 +0100 Subject: contact on prof. Suganuma and other Lankavatara scholars needed. Message-ID: <161227045941.23782.17488087391126830323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Coleagues I am looking for the ways to contact the bellow named scholars and teachers who have currently contributed to the study of LANKAVATARA sutra Taisho 670-2 1. prof. SUGANUMA Akira who supose to be translating the Bei Wei version T671 for the Numata Center. (Numata Center has never answered any of my letter, fax or email in last three years) 2. Venerable teacher NAN2 HUA2 JIN3 who is probably from Hong Kong and who wrote commentary on Lankavatara T670 in 1965. 3. Venerable teacher TAI4 XU1 probably from Taiwan who wrote commentary on Lankvatara T670recently. 4. HADANO HAKUYU of Tohoku University 5. JIKIDO TAKASAKI of Tokyo 6. CHIKASHI KURODA who all wrote about Lankavatara to Indogaku Bukkyogaku Kenkyo. I am basically looking for any scholars currently involved in the text of Lankavatara Sutra especialy Taisho 670, Stein 6909, Pelliot 2198 or Stein 5311. I am especially interested to find out if anybody has done any research on the pre-Gunabhadra Chinese translation of the text of Dharmaraksha Chin. TanWuChen (his name used to be earlier reconstructed as Dharmakshema), the translator of Mahaparinirvana in 36 fasc. in Gansu. Any information or clue will be very precious to me. Thank You Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Feb 3 21:43:17 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 21:43:17 +0000 Subject: Hindu concept of time Message-ID: <161227045931.23782.4488844816521118721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I apologize for any inconvenience caused by my inadvertent duplicate postings with minor editorial changes. I noted my mistake only after I opened my incoming mail again. Hindu concept of time can do without resonance or echo. Is pratidhvani the bon mot? Regards, Kalyanaraman. ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Feb 3 22:40:25 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 22:40:25 +0000 Subject: Language of Sarasvati Sindhu Civilization Message-ID: <161227045936.23782.7856453795300206097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Table at p. 247 of Excavations at Harappa by Madho Sarup Vats, 1974, Varanasi, Bhartiya Publishing House, lists many instances of burial pottery from Cemetery H, decorated with peacocks. Similar peacock designs on burial pottery have been found at many other Harappan or Sarasvati Sindhu civilization sites. Why was the peacock chosen? A possible interpretation may also provide a clue to the language of the civilization: In Pali (Rhys Davids' lexicon), ji_van-ji_vaka (poss. onomatopoetic) means a bird, a sort of pheasant which utters a note sounding like ji_van ji_va (Di_gha III.201)... Also cited is a Jain phrase: ji_vanji_ven.a gacchai ji_vanji_venan cit.t.hai [Weber Bhagavati_ pp. 289,290 with doubtful interpretation "living he goes with life"? or "he goes like the j. bird"?] Peacock becomes the va_hana of both Sarasvati and Ka_rtikeya, celebrated in the region in later historical periods. Balarama offers homage to the ancestors in his pilgrimage along the Sarasvati river (cf. s'alya parva, MBh); there are many ghats along the river near Pehoa, Kuruks.etra where the tradition is for pilgrims to offer tarpan.a to the ris.is and during auspicious events such as a solar eclipse... Ka_rtikeya is a warlord and nurtured by the divine mothers... why is the peacock associated with him? The peacock on the burial pottery on the Sarasvati and Sindhu river basins is, therfore, perhaps a representation of the lexemes: ji_van-ji_vaka which may also be interpreted as a message to the departed soul: May he live as he goes with life... Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU Thu Feb 4 06:40:33 1999 From: srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU (Stuart R. Sarbacker) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 00:40:33 -0600 Subject: Couple of Questions Message-ID: <161227045948.23782.9979245096013153835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Revered Indologists, I'm wondering if anyone can recommend an entry-level book which would provide translations for Sanskrit names found in literature. The book/dictionary would need to be accessible for non-Sanskit/Hindi literate individuals. The person who asked me whether such a book existed or not is taking an entry-level Indian Literature class, and right now they are reading J.A.B. van Buitenen's text _Tales of Ancient India_. Any suggestions would be helpful. Maybe just force him to learn devanagari? Also, I was wondering whether Karel Werner is still around and working and if so, if someone could provide me with his e-mail or snail mail address. Your help would be greatly appreciated. Stuart From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 4 14:33:37 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 06:33:37 -0800 Subject: Hindu concept of time Message-ID: <161227045963.23782.573611884224317806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Eliade has referred to Indian time conciousness >and the classical conceptualization of cyclical time on various >occasions in other publications as well, relating it to his diagnosis >of a general desinterest in history (in India in particular) and to >the shamanic experiences of time and timelessness he is referring to >all the time. Also in `The myth of eternal return'. N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 4 14:49:25 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 06:49:25 -0800 Subject: New books: Indian Buddhism Message-ID: <161227045965.23782.244629631889709393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, As fas as Buddhism in South India is concerned, only Nagarjunakonda or Amaravarti is known outside India. Several Buddha and Avalokitezvara sculptures have been unearthed in Tamil Nadu. The Buddhist epic, maNimEkalai and a Tamil grammar, VeeracOziyam by puttamittiran2Ar are available also. Institute of Asian Studies, Chennai (Madras) has brought out two new publications: 1) Buddhism in Tamil Nadu. 2) Archaeological atlas of the antique reamins of Buddhism in Tamil Nadu (many photographic plates). For ordering information to your Institute library, please contact IAS, Chennai at ias at xlweb.com or Dr. Patrick Harrigan, Inst. of Asian studies at harrigan at xlweb.com With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Feb 4 09:02:10 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 10:02:10 +0100 Subject: Vishnupurana editions Message-ID: <161227045954.23782.7465284832467307704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members: Does any critical edition of the Vishnupurana exist? If not, are there any particular editions generally considered better or more reliable than others? Best regards, Martin Gansten From KERNLIB at PCMAIL.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Feb 4 09:02:11 1999 From: KERNLIB at PCMAIL.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Kern Institute Library) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 10:02:11 +0100 Subject: Search for article Message-ID: <161227045952.23782.1029894190703529596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, We are looking for an article by T.R. Chintamani, 'Edition of fragments of Paithinasi Dharmasutra' whcih was published in the Annals of Oriental Research (Univ. of Madras), vol. IV (1939-40), i, 40ff. If anybody knows where this journal is available or if there is another way to get a copy of this article, please contact: Arlo Griffiths e-mail: A.Griffiths at stu.let.leidenuniv.nl Thanking you, Dory Heilijgers librarian of the Kern Institute Leiden University From oldthww at HUM.AU.DK Thu Feb 4 14:00:41 1999 From: oldthww at HUM.AU.DK (Heinz Werner Wessler) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 14:00:41 +0000 Subject: Hindu concept of time In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000203234904.00826710@pat.hint.no> Message-ID: <161227045957.23782.13343514469041265723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dear Victor! > I forgot to mention an article about Indian time by Eliade. However, I do > not remember the name of the article. It is in a book with several essays > on time in different religions and culture. Contact me in end of this > month, and I should be able to give you the data. > > Best regards > Jon. > vide Eliade, Mircea. "Time and eternity in Indian thought" In: Man and time. Ed. by Joseph Campbell. New York 1957, p. 173-200. This is a revised version of Eliade's French article in the Eranos Jahrbuch 20 (1951). Eliade has referred to Indian time conciousness and the classical conceptualization of cyclical time on various occasions in other publications as well, relating it to his diagnosis of a general desinterest in history (in India in particular) and to the shamanic experiences of time and timelessness he is referring to all the time. Yours, Heinz Werner Wessler ________________________________________________________ Dr.Heinz Werner Wessler Indisk Afdeling, Aarhus Universitet Bygn. 327, Ndr. Ringgade DK-8000 Aarhus C Tel.:0047-89422162 e-mail: oldthww at hum.aau.dk From oldthww at HUM.AU.DK Thu Feb 4 14:28:25 1999 From: oldthww at HUM.AU.DK (Heinz Werner Wessler) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 14:28:25 +0000 Subject: Vishnupurana editions In-Reply-To: <09021076910646@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045960.23782.4261538448611408532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dear list members: > > Does any critical edition of the Vishnupurana exist? If not, are there any > particular editions generally considered better or more reliable than others? > > Best regards, > Martin Gansten > The All-India Kashiraj Trust in Varanasi and the Baroda Oriental Research Institute have been dealing with the preparation of critical editions of Pur-a.nas, following methodological assumptions of the Mbh critical edition. According to my information, the collation of the 27 selected manuscripts for a Vi.s.nupur-a.na edition has already been finished in 1986 under the supervision of Dr. M.M. Pathak. Dr. M.L. Wadekar (general editor) had informed me back in 1993 that the difficulties to get the edition published might be solved soon, but I don't know, what has happened since then. According to the editors of the New Catalogus Catalogorum, the number of Vi.s.nupur-a.na manuscripts is 238; the Nepalese-German Manuscript Preservation Project brought up knowledge of many more manuscripts, as Prof. Peter Schreiner mentiones in his work on the stotras in the Vi.s.nupur-a.na. I would suggest to use the Venkateshvara Press (reprinted at Nag publishers, with commentaries) or the Gitapress edition. Yours, Heinz Werner Wessler ________________________________________________________ Dr.Heinz Werner Wessler Indisk Afdeling, Aarhus Universitet Bygn. 327, Ndr. Ringgade DK-8000 Aarhus C Tel.:0047-89422162 e-mail: oldthww at hum.aau.dk From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Feb 4 15:00:16 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 16:00:16 +0100 Subject: Vishnupurana editions Message-ID: <161227045967.23782.9576968970455149187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dr. M.L. Wadekar (general editor) had informed me back in 1993 that >the difficulties to get the edition published might be solved soon, >but I don't know, what has happened since then. Thank you! If anyone else knows more about this edition, please do fill me in. Regards, Martin Gansten From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 5 00:11:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 16:11:07 -0800 Subject: Hindu concept of time Message-ID: <161227045989.23782.9405681369004272413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hindu concept of Time: --------------------- 1) R. Inden, Ritual, authority and Cyclic time in Hindu kingship, in J. F. Richards, ed., Kingship and authority in South Asia, 1978 2) Yvon Ambroise, The Hindu concept of Space and Time structuring the day to day life of Man, Social Compass, 29, 4, 1982, p. 335-348 3) Akos Ostor, Cyclical Time: Durga puja in Bengal, in Religion in India, OUP, 1991, p. 176-198 4) Petteri Koskikallio, When time turns: yugas, ideologies, sacrifice. Studia Orientalia, 73, p. 253-271 5) L. Orr, The concept of time in Sankara's Brahmasutrabhasya, in K. K. Young, ed., Hermeneutical paths to the sacred worlds of India, 1994 6) George Cardona, A path still taken, some early Indian arguments xoncering time, JAOS, 111, 1991, p. 445-464 7) C. Sivaramamurti, Time in Indian art, 1981 8) K. K. Mandal, A comparative study of the concepts of Space and Time in India, Varanasi, 1968 9) K. N. Rao, Yogis, destiny and the wheel of time, Lucknow, 1996 10) Thirumalai Saila Sarma, Asthaana kolaahalam, 1951, Govt. Oriental Mss. library, Madras. (Hindu math, Time measurements) 11)Madhva (d. 1386), kaalanirNaya (kaalamaadhava) being a treatise on the time proper for religious observances, Calcutta: Baptist Mission press, 1885 12)C. P. Brown, Carnatic chronology, the Hindu and Mahommedan methods of reckoning time explained. London: B. Quatrich, 1863, 90 p. 13) Liet. Col. John Warren, A collection of memoirs on the various modes according to which the nations of the Southern parts of India divide time. Madras: The College press, 1825 14)Luiz Gonzalez-Reimann, Tiempo ciclico y eras del mundo en la India. Mexico, 1988, 216 p. 15) M. Sundar Raj, Time: Publsiher, N. Mahalingam, 1983 16) M. Eliade, Le temps et l'eternite dans lapensee Indienne, Zurich, 1952 17) W. Randolp Kloetzli, Maps of time - mythologies of descent: scientific instruments and the Puranic cosmograph, History of Religions, 25, 1985, p. 116-147 18) Ruth Katz, Human and divine time in the Bhagavad gita, J. of Studies in the BhG, 1, 1981, p. 100-112. 19) Z. Cooper, Perceptions of time in the Andaman islands, World archaeology, 25, 2, 1993, p. 261-267 20) T. Goudriaan, Some beliefs and rituals concerning time and earth in the Kubjikamata, in R. Kloppenberg, ed., Selected studies in Indian religions, 1983, p. 92-117 21) R. S. Khare, The concept of time and time-reckoning among the Hindus: an anthropological viewpoint, Eastern Anthropologist, Lucknow, 1967, 20, 1, p. 47-53 22) Judy F. Pugh, Into the almanac: time, meaning and action in North Indian society, CIS, 17, 1, 1983, p. 27-49 23) V. Das, Time, self and community: features of the Sikh militant discourse, CIS, 26, 2, p. 245-259 24) H. S. Prasad, Time as a substantive reality in Nyaya-Vaisesika, East and West, 34, 1-3, 1986, p. 233-266 25) G. M. Carstairs, Changes over time in Western perceptions of Hindu culture, in Cultural Encounters, London: Octagon press, 1990, p. 87-99 26) Emile Lyly, Cycical Time as two types of journey and some implications for axes of polarity, contexts and levels. Shadow (Edinburgh), 4, 1, 1987, p. 10-19 27) C. Wiser, Time perspectives in village India, AAAS selected symposium, Westview press, v. 34, 1980, p. 123-159 28)J. M. Stanley, Special time, special power: the fluidity of power in a popular Hindu festival, JAS, 1977, 37, 1, p. 27-43 29) A. L. Basham, Ancient Indian ideas of time and history, in D. C. Sircar, ed., PrAcyavidyA taraGginI, U. Calcutta, 1969, p.49-63 30) A. K. Coomaraswamy, Time and eternity, 1947 31) M. Eliade, Time and eternity in Indian thought, in Man and time, London, 1957, p. 173-200 32) R. Lingat, Time and Dharma (on Manu I, 85-86). CIS, 6, 1962, p. 7-16 33) J. E. Mitchiner, The saptarsi yuga: elucidation of a cyclical era. JAIH, 10, 1976-1977, p. 52-95 34) S. Mookerjee, The Jaina conception of time, Visvabharati Quarterly, 27, 2, 1961, 122-139 35) D. F. Pocock, The anthropology of time reckoning, CIS 7, 1964, 18-30 36) S. Sastri, Conception of time in post-vedic Sanskrit literature, in his Essays on Indology, Delhi, 1963, p. 149-204 37) S. Schayer, Contribution to the problem of time in Indian philosophy, Krakow, 1938, 76 p. 38) Time and temporality [special issue], PEW, 24, 2, p. 119-214, 1974. 39) H. Nakamura, Time in Indian and Japanese thought, in J. T. Fraser, The voices of time, p. 77-91 Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Thu Feb 4 23:52:13 1999 From: cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (george cardona) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 18:52:13 -0500 Subject: Vishnupurana editions In-Reply-To: <09021076910646@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227045987.23782.7139059257960472217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear list members: > >Does any critical edition of the Vishnupurana exist? If not, are there any >particular editions generally considered better or more reliable than others? > >Best regards, >Martin Gansten The Critical Edition of the ViSNupurANam, vol. I (1-3 AMzas), critically edited by M. M. Pathak, Vadodara: Oriental Institute, 1997. From hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM Fri Feb 5 02:41:55 1999 From: hfarnold at LANMINDS.COM (Harold F. Arnold) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 19:41:55 -0700 Subject: Aryavarta/bharata varsha In-Reply-To: <01BE4E40.08C5B240.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227045991.23782.2615778821196143510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear members of the net, > >I am looking for bibliographic references to "aryavarta"/bharata varsha", >particularly in the Puranic context. I would be grateful if any of you had any >suggestions. > >Lars Martin Fosse > > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Norway >Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no Although it deals with an earlier period than the one you are interested in, Egon Brucker's book, Die spatvedische Kulturepoche nach den Quellen der Srauta-, Grhya- und Dharmasutras, discusses the extent of "aryavarta"/bharata varsha," and includes a large bibliography. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Feb 4 14:50:46 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 19:50:46 +0500 Subject: kuvalayamAla of udyantasUri Message-ID: <161227045970.23782.739361334541929606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Do any prakrit scholars of this list have the "kuvalayamAla" of udyntanasUri. I would like to have the information contained it about "mahantam matham" of vijayapuri. Thanks in advance regards, sarma. From ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK Fri Feb 5 03:54:42 1999 From: ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK (Jibunnessa) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 19:54:42 -0800 Subject: Ontology of Ramanuja Message-ID: <161227045980.23782.2648261942584535480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr Zydenbos How is your wife now? I hope that my last email didn't come across as too intrusive and over- bearing. Take care All the best Jibunnessa -- Jibunnessa Abdullah Fax: (+44) 181 731-9770 ------------------------------------------------------ Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, the yard must be wonky!" From ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK Fri Feb 5 03:59:17 1999 From: ycrnn14 at UCL.AC.UK (Jibunnessa) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 19:59:17 -0800 Subject: PROFUSE APOLOGIES! Message-ID: <161227045982.23782.13669890112580163360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends The last email wasn't for the list. It was an accident. I apologise Jibunnessa -- Jibunnessa Abdullah Fax: (+44) 181 731-9770 ------------------------------------------------------ Old Bengali saying: "If you don't know how to dance, the yard must be wonky!" From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Feb 4 19:57:53 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 20:57:53 +0100 Subject: Ontology of Ramanuja Message-ID: <161227045984.23782.1753865073892987873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >"... This means, however, that any material substance has intelligible and >substantial reality only when it is a mode of a soul or self, which is the >same as saying: only when it is the body of a self." (p.125). > >Is this of any help? Thank you, yes. It is not, of course, a very thorough probing of R's ontology, but then Carman does say that his study is limited to theology. Still, it does point in the direction I am going: if the self is pure consciousness, and the world is a mode of the self, then what does that tell us about the world? Etc. Thanks again, Martin Gansten From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Thu Feb 4 13:35:40 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 21:35:40 +0800 Subject: The only Buddhist epic? In-Reply-To: <19990202201736.10371.rocketmail@web311.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227045972.23782.3831665318155404024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:17 PM 2/2/99 -0800, you wrote: >Is maNimEkalai the only Buddhist epic available >from Indian Buddhist corpus? > >Swaminathan Madhuresan > Apart from it, there was one more. It was "KuNdala KEsi". It was also one of the Five Big Kaappiyams. It was lost in later times. But 99 verses from the original work have been found. The other Kaappiyam - "VaLaiyaapathi" also got lost. 72 verses from this also have been found. From what has been found, most some scholars are of the opinion that it, too, might be Buddhist. But it does look more Jainistic. Regards Jayabarathi ======================================= From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Feb 4 19:52:47 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 99 00:52:47 +0500 Subject: Ontology of Ramanuja Message-ID: <161227045977.23782.7980685653867773032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:42 02.02.99 +0100, Martin Gansten wrote: >>John Braisted Carman. _The Theology of Ramanuja._ Bombay: Ananthacharya >>Indological Research Institute, 1981. (Indian repr.; orig. Yale Univ. Press, >>1974.) > >Thanks for the reference. Was it meant as an answer to my request for works >calling Ramanuja's realism into question? Yes. >In other words, does Carman doubt >that R. was an objective realist? I must admit that I have not gone deeply into Ramanuja's thought, so I have no critical opinion about what Carman says; but he has a few statements that point in that direction, e.g.: "Ramanuja often says that the body is only a mode, but it is mode of self or soul. He frequently indicates some causal sequence, and this almost always has the form: 'By virtue of being a body [in the instrumental case, ;sariiratayaa] this substance is a mode.' Occasionally there is a statement that seems to reverse the sequence: 'By virtue of being a mode of the soul, a material body is a definite thing or substance [padaartha].' This means, however, that any material substance has intelligible and substantial reality only when it is a mode of a soul or self, which is the same as saying: only when it is the body of a self." (p.125). Is this of any help? RZ Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From lh57061 at HONGO.ECC.U-TOKYO.AC.JP Thu Feb 4 16:55:28 1999 From: lh57061 at HONGO.ECC.U-TOKYO.AC.JP (Jae-sung Kim (Jung Won)) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 99 01:55:28 +0900 Subject: LANKAVATARA Sutra - its current research and oldest Manuscripts In-Reply-To: <199902031312.OAA10682@vega.inec.cz> Message-ID: <161227045975.23782.584116953914167319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Petr Mares ; If you can read Japanese, Prof. Takasaki's work will be useful for you. Japanese translation of Chinese Version of Lankavatara Sutra. Ryogakyo, translated by Takasaki Jikido, Tokyo,Daizo Shuppan, 1980.1, 436p ; 20cm. ISBN: 4804354131 According to A Descriptive dictionary of Mahaayana Sutras(Tokyo, Hokusindo, 1997, p.318), this is not a full translation. On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:13:53 +0100 $B!$ (BPetr Mares wrote ; > I would also like to ask if anybody knows about any current > research or translating of this sutra especially in the Chinese > version. ----------- KIM Jae-sung (Jung Won) Department of Indian Philosophy and Buddhist Studies University of Tokyo e-mail : jungwon at l.u-tokyo.ac.jp From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Fri Feb 5 08:05:00 1999 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie fellows) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 99 06:05:00 -0200 Subject: e-mail request Message-ID: <161227045993.23782.7824953673639596137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, I'm looking for the email or any address of G.C Nayak, author of "The Madhyamika Attack on essentialism: a critical appraisal ", published in * Philosophy East& West ( 29--October 79 ). Jesualdo Correia From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 5 17:42:42 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 99 09:42:42 -0800 Subject: Hindu concept of time Message-ID: <161227045998.23782.15309666455723536192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following Indic concepts of Time are interesting. Regards, N. Ganesan 1) Smith, R Morton Time in India : the paradox of state and motion, East and West, 38, 1988, p. 93-105 2) Smith, R Morton Sin in India : [avidya (ignorance), human imperfection] East and West, 33 (1983), p. 125-142 Abstract/Note: The deficiency of human nature, its imperfection, is the source of the sense of sin in the Western emotional society. In the intellectual society of brahmin India, recognition of deficiency takes other forms. The emotional tends to the individual, the intellectual to the impersonal group. The caste system reduces ethical problems and responsibilities. The guilt of low caste or femininity is made tolerable by the doctrines of karma and transmigration, and the divisiveness that there is always someone still lower. Since it is easier to be intellectually correct than good, the intellectual culture has little faith in human nature. The result of sin being in the out-group is an amoral world. Ethics cannot matter so much in the infinity of time in the kalpa. -------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Feb 5 15:37:22 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 99 10:37:22 -0500 Subject: JOB POSTING: LC Deputy Field Director - New Delhi Message-ID: <161227045997.23782.9870444238039024178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the JOB ANNOUNCEMENTS section of SARAI. Please contact the announcers directly for any further information. David Magier SARAI **************************************************************************** LIBRARY OF CONGRESS Washington, DC 20540-2295 *** VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT *** ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Vacancy Announcement Number 980301 ^ ^ Opening Date: December 1, 1998 ^ ^ Closing Date: January 1, 1999 ^ ^ >The Critical Edition of the ViSNupurANam, vol. I (1-3 AMzas), critically >edited by M. M. Pathak, Vadodara: Oriental Institute, 1997. Thank you. Do you know if the last 3 amshas (or 4? -- is the Vishnudharmottara included?) are due to be published any time soon? Regards, Martin Gansten From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Fri Feb 5 20:58:08 1999 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 99 15:58:08 -0500 Subject: question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046000.23782.162572183807304790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could any of you please help me with the email address for Fritz Staal. Many thanks, Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 Washington, D.C., 20052 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 2106 G St., NW Washington, D.C. 20052 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 From pnorth98 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 6 04:05:35 1999 From: pnorth98 at HOTMAIL.COM (Peter North) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 99 20:05:35 -0800 Subject: Web site on Indian Defense Message-ID: <161227046004.23782.12042949881718742679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi anyone interested in Indian Defense past/present/future may want to visit http://www.bharat-rakshak.com There's info on Indian Armed forces and history. Also featured is a discussion forum for related issues. Peter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ellraven at WXS.NL Fri Feb 5 21:19:45 1999 From: ellraven at WXS.NL (Raven, E.M.) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 99 22:19:45 +0100 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227046002.23782.17550364660482260753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr Hiltebeitel, I copied the information you need from an earlier response to the same question on the Indology list. Ellen Raven IIAS/Kern Institute The e-mail address and the fax number of Prof. F. Staal is: jfstaal at socrates.berkeley.edu Fax (510) 530-6464 With best wishes, Masato FUJII ====================================================== Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University E-mail: fujii at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Phone: +81-75-753-6949 Fax: +81-75-753-6903 From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 6 06:53:44 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 99 01:53:44 -0500 Subject: Back to Belgaum Message-ID: <161227046006.23782.6210725198932092824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/22/99 7:40:55 PM Central Standard Time, I wrote: > In light of the findings of kumArila bhaTTa regarding the Sanskritic tendency > to treat Dravidian words as IA words, one can see how vEL with an > enunciative vowel can become vENu in Sanskrit provided we allow for the > alternation of vEL with vEN in the local area. Indeed, I have now come across evidence which confirms my hypothesis. Lionel D. Barnett, in his article, "Two inscriptions from Belgaum, now in the British Museum", EI, vol. 13, p.18, says,"The places mentioned in this record are not many...vENugrAma (II. 38, 44, 48, 50), or vENugrAme (II. 41, 42), is BeLgaum itself; in other inscriptions its name occurs as vELugrAme; and it is known from other records to have been the chief town of a small district of seventy villages; it seems to have been a second capital of the rATTa princes." The inscription belongs to 1204 AD. The language of the inscriptions is Kannada except for the Sanskrit prelude and two verses. The Kannada name vELugrame suggests that the original name did have long E and the present short E should be attibuted to the loss of historical memory regarding the significance of the term "vEL" Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 6 14:09:47 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 99 06:09:47 -0800 Subject: Back to Belgaum Message-ID: <161227046010.23782.10510441895988729697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does rATTA princes refer to Rashtrakutas? Indeed, Auvai TuraicAmi PiLLai has written that the title kAmuNDa/gAmuNDa occurs in Rashtrakuta inscriptions. kAmuNDa/kAmiNDa is the old honorific title of vELALar of Kongu country which has ancient Jain connections with Karnataka. Kongu vELir wrote Perugkatai; Ciivaka CintAmaNi was produced in KongunADu (cf. its pAyiram). Does any kaNNaDa inscriptions mention kAmuNDa/kAmiNDa/gAmuNDa? In what period, Chalukyas and/or Rashtrakutas? Regards N. Ganesan <<< Lionel D. Barnett, in his article, "Two inscriptions from Belgaum, now in the British Museum", EI, vol. 13, p.18, says,"The places mentioned in this record are not many...vENugrAma (II. 38, 44, 48, 50), or vENugrAme (II. 41, 42), is BeLgaum itself; in other inscriptions its name occurs as vELugrAme; and it is known from other records to have been the chief town of a small district of seventy villages; it seems to have been a second capital of the rATTa princes." The inscription belongs to 1204 AD. The language of the inscriptions is Kannada except for the Sanskrit prelude and two verses. The Kannada name vELugrame suggests that the original name did have long E and the present short E should be attibuted to the loss of historical memory regarding the significance of the term "vEL". >>> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 6 22:29:39 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 99 14:29:39 -0800 Subject: Back to Belgaum Message-ID: <161227046012.23782.699591891806677469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DEDR 5507 lists Velamas of AP as equivalent of Tamil Vellalas. In Karnataka, does any caste purANas or inscriptions link themselves as Velamas? For example, what about Gowdas? Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 6 11:59:50 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 99 16:59:50 +0500 Subject: PROFUSE APOLOGIES! Message-ID: <161227046008.23782.6195796164577166199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:59 04.02.99 -0800, Jibunnessa Abdullah wrote: >Dear Friends > >The last email wasn't for the list. It was an accident. > >I apologise (This refers to some off-list correspondence about my wife's continuing hospitalisation after a severe traffic accident here in Mysore one month ago. Anyathaa maa bhaavayeta...) RZ From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sun Feb 7 00:13:38 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 99 20:13:38 -0400 Subject: Consciousness in VishiShTAdvaita VedAnta Message-ID: <161227046015.23782.5778582477231459247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reply to Mr. Gantsen's query on VishiShTAdvaita VedAnta: VishiShTAdvaita VedAnta posits two types of consciousness in regards to the individual soul (jIvAtmA). 1. SvarUpajNAna (essential consciousness): This consciousness is spiritual in nature. It is of the very essence of the soul. When the soul is described as saccidAnanda, this is the "cid" referred to therein. It is both self-luminous and self-conscious. It is pure subjective consciousness. It is of the nature "I am" (ahamasmItibhAvaH). However, it cannot know its object without the help of another type of consciousness. 2. DharmabhUtajNAna (attributive consciousness): This consciousness is neither material nor spiritual in nature, but rather immaterial (ajaDa) in nature. It brings about the epistemological rapproachment between the spiritual and the material worlds. It is a permanent adjunct to the soul. Ontologically, it is both a substance as well as an attribute. It is self-luminous but not self-conscious. It is like a lamp which can show both itself and its object but cannot know either itself or its object. It subserves the soul which is the real knower (jNAtA). Depanding on the shape, size and distance of the object to the perceiving soul, dharmabhUtajNAna is subject to contraction and expansion. In the cognition: As per VishiShTAdvaita philosophers, the simple cognition "I know the table" is actually of the nature "I know that I know the table", the first "I know" is invariable and is svarUpajNAna and the second "I know" is variable in terms of the objective content and is dharmabhUtajNAna. (I hope this illustration helps!) Comment: In RAmAnuja's system of VedAnta, substance and attribute though distinct are nevertheless inseparable (aprthaksiddhabheda). So, even "essential consciousness" is an attribute of the soul. Balaji Hebbar George Washington University Washington DC USA From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sun Feb 7 00:35:41 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 99 20:35:41 -0400 Subject: Realism of RAmAnuja Message-ID: <161227046017.23782.54465441344390005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As a follow-up to my previous question on consciousness as the substance of the jiva in Ramanuja's system of thought, here is a more general query: in all the secondary literature I have seen so far, Ramanuja as well as later vishishtadvaitins are depicted as ontological realists in a full, objective sense; i.e., not only are they said to accept the world as real, but also as independent of and external to (the jiva's) consciousness. For instance, S.M.S. Chari writes (Fundamentals of Visistadvaita Vedanta, p. 158): "According to Visistadvaita, there can be no knowledge which does not point to a corresponding object outside it. [...] This theory presupposes above all the reality of the external object and its existence independent of knowledge. The Visistadvaitin, like other Realists, admits that the objects exist even before they are known [...] It is the function of knowledge to reveal the external world to the knowing subject." 1. Can anyone point me to a place in the writings of Ramanuja (or Yamuna) which explicitly supports not only the reality of the world, but its objective existence outside and independently of consciousness? 2. If not, has there ever been a scholarly attempt to scrutinize the ontological position of Ramanuja, possibly calling his 'objective realist' status into question? Many thanks in advance, Martin Gansten Mr. Gantsen: Please give me a few days and I will get you some data on RAmAnuja's Realism. But in the meanwhile here is a breakdown of the Indian Philosophical systems in terms of Realism (those systems that posit that things exist outside and independent of consciousness) and Idealism (those systems that regard that things do not exist independently of consciousness). Realistic Systems of Indian thought: Jainism Most schools of "HInayAna" Buddhism NyAya-VaisheShika SAnkhya-Yoga PrabhAkara MImAmsA KumArila MImAmsA RAmAnuja VedAnta Madhva VedAnta Idealistic Systems of Indian thought: ShunyavAda school of MahAyAna Buddhism VijNAnavAda school of MahAyAna Buddhism Advaita VedAnta (hence the nomenclature "pracchanna Bauddha" for Shankara, really it must have been "pracchanna MahAyAnika") NB: After the demise of the NyAya-VaisheShika and the SAnkhya-Yoga systems, their "cause" was VedAnticized and revived by RAmAnuja and Madhva. RAmAnuja is the "heir-reviver" of SAnkhya-Yoga and Madhva is the "heir-reviver" of NyAya-VaisheShika. This trend can be clearly seen in both these systems. B.N.Hebbar From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Sun Feb 7 09:14:48 1999 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 04:14:48 -0500 Subject: Two types of consciousness Message-ID: <161227046019.23782.3102089120997173130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Balajai Hebba's reference of to two types of consciousness in Ramanuja is not very different from the prakasa and vimarsa of Kasmir Saivism. Kasmir Saivism has the further advantage that it is not theistic. Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia 256, Elgin Street, Ottawa, ON Canada. K2P 1L9. Telephone 613-233-3103 Facsimile 613-829-2560 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Sun Feb 7 07:30:56 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 08:30:56 +0100 Subject: Aryavarta/bharata varsha Message-ID: <161227046070.23782.14278508957318349209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, I think several of the articles by Madhav M. Deshpande collected in his book _Sanskrit & Prakrit. Sociolinguistic Issues_ might be interesting for you. (Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi 1993. ISBN 81-208-1136-4.) Especially relevant might be _RAjazekhara on ethnic and linguistic geography of India_, originally published in _Dr. D. N. Shastri Felicitaton Volume: Indological Studies_, Vimal Prakashan, Ghaziabad 1982. [In the legend of Map 3 the colors are inverted.] Yours, Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa assistant professor of metaphysics E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu -----Original Message----- >>I am looking for bibliographic references to "aryavarta"/bharata varsha", >>particularly in the Puranic context >>Lars Martin Fosse From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 7 18:33:46 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (harry spier) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 10:33:46 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046029.23782.15759162751888627248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are there guidelines or accepted standards among Sanskritists for the splitting of sanskrit sentences and the use of hyphenation in roman transliteration. In examining nine different editions of the Bhagavad Geeta, each one split the words in the sentences differently, and each one used hyphenation differently. None mirrored the accompanying devanagari script without additional breaks in the sentence. Any guidelines I could receive from professional Sanskritists would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 7 18:47:02 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (harry spier) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 10:47:02 -0800 Subject: Use of avagraha Message-ID: <161227046031.23782.8491169726824094454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some western editions of Sanskrit texts occasionally use avagraha (or double avagraha where appropriate) to indicate the assimilation of a final a or A into a preceeding a or A. In examining nine western editions of the Bhagavad Geeta, it was seen that eight of them did this, but none were self-consistent (the same word combinations sometimes having an avagraha inserted and sometimes not). Is this a modern or western edition use of avagraha? Is it more correct not to use avagraha in this manner? Any guidelines from professional Sanskritists would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sun Feb 7 10:03:15 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:03:15 +0100 Subject: Realism of RAmAnuja Message-ID: <161227046022.23782.9891219773022894088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Hebbar, Thank you for your replies to my queries. >Indian Philosophical systems in terms of Realism (those >systems that posit that things exist outside and independent of >consciousness) [include] >RAmAnuja VedAnta I know that this is what traditional Srivaishnava teachers claim, and they may very well be right. But I would like to see some explicit statement of Ramanuja to that effect. Personally, I have some difficulty in harmonizing the notion of objects as external and independent of consciousness with the concept of aprithaksiddhi. There is no doubt that Ramanuja defends the reality of distinctions (God/soul/world, etc), but that is equally feasible within the framework of an idealist ontology. Regards, Martin Gansten From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sun Feb 7 10:05:18 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:05:18 +0100 Subject: Two types of consciousness Message-ID: <161227046025.23782.5641465820449406191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Kasmir Saivism has the further advantage that it is not theistic. Now what kind of comment is that? Regards, Martin Gansten From oblivion at CHIANTINET.IT Sun Feb 7 16:46:10 1999 From: oblivion at CHIANTINET.IT (Stephen Roach & Fabrizia Baldissera) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 17:46:10 +0100 Subject: questions: hymns, latAveZin, manner of death Message-ID: <161227046027.23782.982859285658297535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, I am translating a work of Kshemendra and have the following questions: 1) do you know of an ashTAvatArastotra ? (especially in Kashmir?)+ 2) after a quotation from StavacintAmani 1 and 2, there is the following verse, which I have not been able to place: sarvAnandasvarUpAya sarvamangalyahetave/ sarvakleZApahartre ca cidrUpabrahmane namah (it may be an invention of Kshemendra, or a stock formula ). Has anyone come across it from other contexts? 3) Has anyone read in any text the term latAveZin ? I took it to be a magician who makes creepers possessed for the sake of prognostication. 4) Could any of you provide a reference (from the SUtras or the PurAnas, perhaps) to the fact that evil people exhale their last breath from the anus? I'll be very grateful for any suggestion. Fabrizia Baldissera associated professor of Sanskrit language and literature Universit? degli Studi di Firenze Dipart. di Linguistica Piazza Brunelleschi 4 50121 Firenze tel. (055) 2757857/8 Fax (O55) 2476808 Work e-mail fabrizia at CESIT1.UNIFI.IT Piazza Brunelleschi From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Mon Feb 8 01:44:44 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 21:44:44 -0400 Subject: Realism of RAmAnuja Message-ID: <161227046034.23782.18154656166615534393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr.Gantsen: If you really wish to understand the "battle royale" between the Indian Idealists and the Indian Realists over the issue whether objects exist OUTSIDE of consciousness, one must look at the scholastic and polemical texts of the VijNAnavAda school of MahAyAna Buddhism and the NyAya-VaisheShika system of Hindu thought. Like two giants they intellectually fought for 6.5 centuries and in the process bled each other to death. The arguments between Advaita VedAnta and the theistic schools of VedAnta (RAmAnuja & Madhva particularly) along the same lines really pales by comparison. Also, with regard to the ontology issue, the real difference between Shankara and Vasubandhu (two Indian idealists) is the former belongs to the AtmavAda trend of Indian thought and the latter to the AnAtmavAda trend. Both regard consciousness as the only reality. For Shankara consciousness is substantial and based on VedavAkya while for Vasubandhu (being a Buddhist) it is non-substantial and based on Buddhavacana. I haven't forgotten that you need evidence from RAmAnuja on the Consciousness-objects dualism affair. I will keep you posted. B.N.Hebbar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 8 13:25:28 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 05:25:28 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046054.23782.11768630889450666582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. DVN Sarma writes: > ... Any way the identification >potika or potiyil with potala/potalaka is arbitrary. << Identification by Nandolal De, Nalinaksha Dutt, K. A. Nilakanta Sastri for Mt. Potalaka as Mt. Potikai/Potiyil is NOT arbitrary. T. Watters, On Yuan Chwang's travels in India, 1905 2.229 says: "In the south of the mo-lo-kuta (malakUTa) country near the sea was mo-lo-ya (malaya) mountain, lofty cliffs and ridges and deep valleys and gullies, on which were sandal, camphor and other trees. To the east of this was the pu-ta-lo-ka (potalaka) mountain with steep narrow paths over its cliffs and gorges in irregular confusion; on the top was a lake of clear water, whence issues a river which on its wayto the sea, flowed twenty times round the mountain. By the side of the lake was a deva place frequented by kuan-tzu-tsai-p'usa (avalokitezvara). Devotees, risking life, brave water and mountain to see the P'usa, but only a few succeed in reaching the shrine. To the people at the foot of the mountain who pray for a sight of the P'usa, he appears sometimes as a pazupata tIrthika, or mahezvara, and consoles the suppliant with his answer." S. Beal, Si-yu-ki, Buddhist records of the Western world, 1884 2.233 says: "To the east of the Malaya mountains is Mount Po-ta-la-ka (Potalaka)." >> Potiyil is the malaya mountain. The topmost point of potiyil reaches 2072.6 metres in height. It is visible from Trivandrum on the west coast. (So it is not very far from the sea.) The origin of river tAmraparNi is in potiyil. Potiyil has been historically famous for sandal tree. There is a ziva temple with pAzupata influence at the foot of potiyil. Palaniappan has shown earlier that there is similarity between avalokitEzvara and dakSiNAmUrti forms, and that the presence of dakSiNAmUrti cult at potiyil has been mentioned in the Classical Tamil text, maturaikkAJci. All these factors match Hieun Tsang's description and ensure that the identification of Potalaka with Potiyil by reputed scholars is not arbitrary. A Buddhist text called tARAsukkam refers to Tara, avalokitezvara as "potalagiri nivAsinI". According to this work, avalokitezvara bodhisattva is seated in this mountain. We know gaNDavyUha states, "In the southern direction, there is a mountain named potalaka, where lives a bodhisattva of the name avalokitezvara". Thus, the Buddhist texts clearly show that "potala" and "potalaka" are simply alternate names of the same place in potiyil/potiyam/potikai. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Feb 8 07:28:46 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 07:28:46 +0000 Subject: Etyma: pus.kara, pus.ya Message-ID: <161227046036.23782.2660948868202842708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, As we were debating the Paus.kara Sam.hita_ (of the Pan~cara_tra a_gama), a doubt has arisen. Monier-Williams provides the following notes: "rather fr. pushka+ra than fr. push+kara, but cf. Un.a_di iv,4) The Dha_tupa_t.ha xvii,50 has pus. to mean divide, unfold... pos.a in RV i.93.2 is interpreted as 'thriving, prosperity, abundance'; see for e.g. gava_m pos.am (RV. ixc.666.21 dadhad rayim mayi pos.am). I shall be grateful for comments from s'i.s.t.as on the possibility of interpreting Paus.kara Sam.hita_ etymologically, in the context of architectural division of space to layout a township... The work cites the need for 4 years of education to learn the technology and engineering techniques. Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 8 02:15:02 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 07:45:02 +0530 Subject: Use of avagraha In-Reply-To: <19990207184703.8236.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046059.23782.13358687366725315354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:47 AM 2/7/99 -0800, you wrote: >Some western editions of Sanskrit texts occasionally use avagraha (or >double avagraha where appropriate) to indicate the assimilation of a >final a or A into a preceeding a or A. In examining nine western >editions of the Bhagavad Geeta, it was seen that eight of them did this, >but none were self-consistent (the same word combinations sometimes >having an avagraha inserted and sometimes not). Is this a modern or >western edition use of avagraha? Is it more correct not to use avagraha >in this manner? > >Any guidelines from professional Sanskritists would be greatly >appreciated. > >Thank you, > > >Harry Spier > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Feb 8, 99 The critical MahAbhArata edition of the BORI uses avagraha only to signify an a elided in the preceding e or o. K. S. Arjunwadakar From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU Mon Feb 8 15:24:18 1999 From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt Thorp) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 09:24:18 -0600 Subject: Use of avagraha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046061.23782.17623805469033373391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you've ever seen the old Calcutta edition of the Mahabharata (the first printed edition), the text is printed continuously almost without breaks. Presumably, in those early days of Skt printing, the editors wanted to imitate manuscript practice--or did it have something to do with oral recitation? > >The critical MahAbhArata edition of the BORI uses avagraha only to signify >an a elided in the preceding e or o. >K. S. Arjunwadakar > > Burt Thorp English Department University of North Dakota Grand Forks ND 58202-7209 From mgansten at SBBS.SE Mon Feb 8 08:32:12 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 09:32:12 +0100 Subject: Realism of RAmAnuja Message-ID: <161227046038.23782.2430452926914904578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Hebbar, No, the Indian realist/idealist debate in general doesn't really engage me, though of course I am aware of it. It is in Ramanuja's position that I am particularly interested. I look forward to seeing whatever materials you may have on this. Thank you. Regards, Martin Gansten From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Mon Feb 8 09:46:44 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 09:46:44 +0000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990207183346.5755.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046040.23782.6631134246863158408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, harry spier wrote: > Are there guidelines or accepted standards among Sanskritists for the > splitting of sanskrit sentences and the use of hyphenation in roman > transliteration. In examining nine different editions of the Bhagavad > Geeta, each one split the words in the sentences differently, and each > one used hyphenation differently. None mirrored the accompanying > devanagari script without additional breaks in the sentence. Any > guidelines I could receive from professional Sanskritists would be > greatly appreciated. The convention in Roman is the same as in Devanagari etc.: put spaces between words where it is possible to do so. However, the fundamental differences between the Indian scripts and Roman mean that the results are not the same in both cases. In Nagari, if a word ends in a consonant (excluding visarga and anusvara), it must be written joined up to the next word; in Roman this is not the case. So AsId rAjA appears in Nagari as one "word", in Roman as two. In Roman the only joined-up words are ones where vowel sandhi has fused two vowels into one: tathaiva etc. Note that this practice results in some unpronounceable words being written separately in Roman: tad dhy asti, tat tv asti etc. Note also that if it is desired to convert from a Roman-style version to a Nagari-style version, all that is needed is to remove every space following a consonant. The reverse conversion, however, cannot be done automatically. Hyphenation is sometimes used as a guide to compound-formation, but this is generally restricted to language manuals and the like: it is not normal to hyphenate Sanskrit texts in Roman. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Mon Feb 8 09:50:13 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 09:50:13 +0000 Subject: Use of avagraha In-Reply-To: <19990207184703.8236.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046042.23782.14161245863698637654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, harry spier wrote: > Some western editions of Sanskrit texts occasionally use avagraha (or > double avagraha where appropriate) to indicate the assimilation of a > final a or A into a preceeding a or A. In examining nine western > editions of the Bhagavad Geeta, it was seen that eight of them did this, > but none were self-consistent (the same word combinations sometimes > having an avagraha inserted and sometimes not). Is this a modern or > western edition use of avagraha? Is it more correct not to use avagraha > in this manner? > > Any guidelines from professional Sanskritists would be greatly > appreciated. Avagraha to indicate vowel-sandhi is not favoured in modern scholarly practice, which restricts it to indicating loss of initial "a" (with double avagraha for the much rarer case of loss of initial long "A"). This is equally true of Indian and western editions. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 8 17:52:50 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 09:52:50 -0800 Subject: Realism of Ramanuja Message-ID: <161227046064.23782.16687146653812657711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Balaji writes : >Idealistic Systems of Indian thought: >ShunyavAda school of MahAyAna Buddhism I don't think the MAdhyamika would fall in that category. The VaibhAshikas and SautrAntikas are the realists who insist on the existence of the outside world independent of consciousness. For the former only the underlying elements of existence (dharma) is real. The latter insist everything including the dharmas are momentary. The Yogacarins (VijnAnavAdins) deny the empirical world and insist that consciousness is all (sarvam buddhimayam jagat). The MAdhyamikas or the ShUnyavAdins deny ultimate reality to both the empirical world and the consciousness, which perceives it, since both exist only in relation to each other. They are as their name indicates - the Middle Way. The MAdhyamikas have no theory of their own. Their four fold negation of reality - Neither Being, nor Non Being, neither nor both, is deliberately taken by their opponents as their conception of Reality and then refuted. What the Madhyamika really means by the four fold negation is that none of the existing views are correct - Being : AtmavAda (most brAhmanical schools), Non Being - NairAtmayavAda (NAgasena, Buddhaghosa, earlier Vasubandhu and YAshomitra), both Being and Non-Being - JainA (who accept unity with difference) and neither Being nor non Being - the nihilistic brAhmanical school of CAravAka. The MAdhyamika analyzes each view and exposes the inner contradictions inherent in them. But their official line is not to give a theory of their own. (BhAvavikeka of the Svatantra MAdhyamika school is an exception. But he is severely criticized by ChandrakIrti for breaking the no-theory rule). But No-Theory doesn't mean No-Reality. The MAdhyamika way to reality is to transcend conceptual knowledge and to ascend to prAjnApAramitA - inspired, intuitive non-dual wisdom. >Advaita VedAnta (hence the nomenclature "pracchanna Bauddha" for >Shankara, really it must have been "pracchanna MahAyAnika") If from the pluralistic materialism of the SaravAstivAdins the Bauddhas could develop absolutistic systems, it would have been that much easier for the Upanishadic schools which was from the beginning "spiritual". Pre Gaudapada Vedanta even if not advaitic was definitely monistic, accepting unity with difference. The germs of vivartavAda (appearance) is already present in the SAmkhya - Yoga darshanas. The Upanishads also decry all difference. So if these theories are taken to their logical conclusion, we have Advaitam, which insists BrAhman alone is real and all difference is unreal (mithyam). It should also be noted that Shankara speaks of an advaitic tradition prior to GaudapAda, though it may not have been the dominant VedAnta school. So it may be that it's actually VijnAnavAda, which is prachanna VedAnta and not the other way around. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 8 09:56:31 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 09:56:31 +0000 Subject: [Announcement] More online materials from Prof. Tokunaga Message-ID: <161227046045.23782.8411560942907174825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:57:07 +0900 From: Muneo TOKUNAGA Subject: Meter-analysis text of the MBhS Dear Dr. Wujastyk, Will you please put this message on Indology. Thank you in advance. Muneo Tokunaga (text) Dear Indologists, In order to promote metrical study of the MahAbhArata, I make public the Metrically Processed Text of the MahAbhArata in my possession. The text is produced from my Machine-readable Text of the MahAbhArata (based on Poona Critical Edition) with the aid of the meter-analysis program (met2.com) programmed by Mr. Toru Tomabechi. I believe that publication of these data will be useful for Indologists of the world, especially for those interested in the epic meter. I hope various people work on it in their own way and that we thus exchange our views with each other on it. The tar.gz file is available from my anonymous ftp site in my server at the Graduate School of Letters, Kyoto University (ftp://tiger.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/pub/mtokunag/). PS: Also, you will find, in the site, the Machine-readable Text of the KauSitaki BrAhmaNa created from the Srikrishna Sarma Edition, and the already wide-spread digital files of the two epics (Poona Critical Edition, Baroda Edition). You are free to download them. =============================================== Muneo TOKUNAGA Professor of Indian Philosophy Graduate School of Letters, Kyoto University Kyoto, Japan (606-01) Tel: 075-753-2778 email: muneo_tokunaga at bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp =============================================== From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK Mon Feb 8 10:27:30 1999 From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (Dermot Killingley) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 10:27:30 +0000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliter In-Reply-To: <19990207183346.5755.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046047.23782.9159522127666954669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I too am interested in word division in romanized Sanskrit, so I welcome Harry Spier's query. My practice is: (1). Mark word division with a space wherever possible, i.e. wherever two vowels are not run together in sandhi. E.g. tad avadat; tad vadati; so 'vadat; tac chrutam; but: tenoktam; tadAvadat; tadarSiH. (2). Within compounds, mark division between stems wherever possible, i.e on the same condition as above. E.g. vRddha-vyAdhaH; mat-putraH; mac-chiSyaH; but mahendraH; kSIraudanam; maharSiH. (2a). I sometimes leave a compound undivided if it is not an ad hoc phrase but an institutionalized unit with a meaning of its own (there's a grey area here). E.g. tatpuruSaH if it means 'endocentric compound' (but tat-puruSaH if it means 'his man'); hRcchayaH 'love' (but hRc-chokaH 'pain in the heart'). (1) is common practice, except that many writers don't put a space before an avagraha (e.g. so'vadat). Nevertheless there is an alternative practice of not putting spaces where they would not be put in Devanagari (e.g. tadavadat; tadvadati; tacchrutam). This is sometimes said to be because of sandhi, but it seems rather to result from reverence for the supposed principles of Devanagari, disregarding the fact that putting spaces in Devanagari at all is a relatively modern practice. (2) is less common, but by no means rare. (3). The practice in Devanagari is again to mark word division with a space wherever possible, except that what is possible in roman may not be possible in Devanagari. So word division is marked wherever the first word ends with a vowel, anusvAra or visarga, but not where it ends with a consonant. This is why, as Spier notes, the spacing in a romanized text does not match the spacing in a Devanagari text. Again, many books don't put a space before avagraha, but I don't see why not. It should be noted that spacing, either in romanization or Devanagari, is a matter of editorial interpretation, not an integral part of the text. E.g. an editor who prints anAdi matparaM brahma in Bhagavad-gItA 13, 13 is reading the same text as one who prints anAdimat paraM brahma, but signalling his intention to construe it as 'beginningless brahman intent on me' (or something like that) and not 'beginningless supreme brahman' (the same applies in Devanagari, except that there would be no space in mat paraM). There is an old but interesting discussion by C. R. Lanman in J.Hertel, _The Panchatantra...of the Jain monk, Purnabhadra_, Cambridge Mass., Harvard University Press, 1908, pp. xix-xlviii. Dr Dermot Killingley (Reader in Hindu Studies) Department of Religious Studies, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Tel: (0191) 222 6730. Fax: (0191) 222 5185 From roheko at MERKUR.NET Mon Feb 8 11:53:49 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 12:53:49 +0100 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046049.23782.14380425721014118227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nagari taddhi means tat hi (and not tad dhi) nagari tattvasti means tat tu asti (and not tat tv asti), etc greetings John Smith wrote: > On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, harry spier wrote: > > > Are there guidelines or accepted standards among Sanskritists for the > > splitting of sanskrit sentences and the use of hyphenation in roman > > transliteration. In examining nine different editions of the Bhagavad > > Geeta, each one split the words in the sentences differently, and each > > one used hyphenation differently. None mirrored the accompanying > > devanagari script without additional breaks in the sentence. Any > > guidelines I could receive from professional Sanskritists would be > > greatly appreciated. > > The convention in Roman is the same as in Devanagari etc.: put spaces > between words where it is possible to do so. However, the fundamental > differences between the Indian scripts and Roman mean that the results are > not the same in both cases. In Nagari, if a word ends in a consonant > (excluding visarga and anusvara), it must be written joined up to the next > word; in Roman this is not the case. So AsId rAjA appears in Nagari as one > "word", in Roman as two. In Roman the only joined-up words are ones where > vowel sandhi has fused two vowels into one: tathaiva etc. > > Note that this practice results in some unpronounceable words being > written separately in Roman: tad dhy asti, tat tv asti etc. > > Note also that if it is desired to convert from a Roman-style version to a > Nagari-style version, all that is needed is to remove every space > following a consonant. The reverse conversion, however, cannot be done > automatically. > > Hyphenation is sometimes used as a guide to compound-formation, but this > is generally restricted to language manuals and the like: it is not normal > to hyphenate Sanskrit texts in Roman. > > John Smith > > -- > Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk > Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) > Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 > Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Mon Feb 8 18:05:05 1999 From: klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Bo Klintberg) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 13:05:05 -0500 Subject: ayurveda in Europe? Message-ID: <161227046066.23782.15378055106991444587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1) When was ayurvedic knowledge introduced in Europe? 2) Was the knowledge transferred by Arabian scholas (al-Biruni, et al)? 3) Does the knowledge in the Ayur-vedic scriptures talk about the circulation of the blood? (i.e. is it possible that Harvey could have gotten the idea from ayurveda?) 4) What are the best, from an academic, scholarly, standpoint, books on ayurveda? And where do I find references about transmission issues? yours sincerely, Bo Klintberg Institute for the History and Philosophy of Science and Technology University of Toronto, Canada From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Mon Feb 8 13:05:34 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 13:05:34 +0000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <36BED04D.C159E3F9@merkur.net> Message-ID: <161227046052.23782.1411586243527816231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Rolf Koch wrote: > nagari taddhi means tat hi (and not tad dhi) > nagari tattvasti means tat tu asti (and not tat tv asti), etc > > > greetings > > John Smith wrote: > > > ... Of course -- that's why they are to be written tad dhy asti, tat tv asti as I originally said. Or are you suggesting something different? I should perhaps have said that this Roman usage has been standard for many years, and is enshrined in the draft ISO standard for transliteration of Indian languages (ISO/TC46/SC2). John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From cultura at ARPNET.IT Mon Feb 8 13:41:23 1999 From: cultura at ARPNET.IT (Paolo Pianarosa) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 14:41:23 +0100 Subject: books on aradhana Message-ID: <161227046056.23782.14549797324943460487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sirs I would like to study "aradhana" in Jainism, so I'm looking for the "Mularadhanadarpana", a sanskrit commentary of Ashadhara on "Bhagavati Aradhana" (or Mularadhana) of Shivarya (or Shivakotyacarya) and the Amitagati's "Aradhana" a metrical paraphrasis in sanskrit of the same. As far I know there is only one edition of them: Mularadhana, Shri Shantisagara granthamala n. 13, Sholapur 1935. I couldn't find it in libraries nor in bookshops so far. Could anyone tell me where I can buy it or where I can get a photocopy. Moreover, is there anyone who has an updated bibliography about aradhana? Thanks Paolo Pianarosa Paolo Pianarosa e-mail: cultura at arpnet.it From jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU Mon Feb 8 16:55:33 1999 From: jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 16:55:33 +0000 Subject: Nalanda University In-Reply-To: <19990131190149.21465.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046068.23782.11005810389765171365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter, this is a belated response to your query. The destruction of Nalanda University and other Buddhist and Hindu centers of learning was done by Ikhtiyauddin Bakhtiyar Khalji from 1197-1202 AD. It is a tale of wanton distruction and rapine slaughter which was repeated for centuries on the sub-continent by these 'ghazis' (slayers of infidels, sort of warrier saints in Islam). The eyewitness chronicles of this event are written in the "Tabquat-i-Nasiri" by Minhaj Siraj Jurjani I would also like to pose the following questions on the list ; 1) Are there any centers for study of medevial India in Western Universities ? 2) Is there a 'magnum-opus' of social history of the medevial period in India which is regarded as an accurate reflection of the times ? 3) Are critical editions of the thousands of manuscripts of the muslim chroniclers of medevial India available easily in libraries in the US ? It is interesting to me that the damning fratricidal conflict on the subcontinent today has never been discussed in terms of the history of medevial India. After the nuclear blasts, all the journalism began an analysis of the conflict from 1947; The medevial dimension of the Islamic conquest is where the roots of the Hindu-Muslim conflict lie. Yet, this period remains completely undiscussed in a civil scholarly manner in India (and seemingly in the West as well) , lending credence to Koenraad Elsts 'Negationism in India' thesis. There remain competing histories in place for medevial India (as they do for ancient India as well) in which the warrier saints of one are the murderers for the other. These continue to stoke the conflict and feed fodder for the demagogues on both sides to spew. A focussed and civil discussion of this time has the power to begin creating an unambiguous history of the times which in turn can bring much healing. I would appreciate answers to the questions posed above. Regards, J.B. Sharma > From: Peter North > Subject: Nalanda University > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Hello, > > I've read accounts about the ancient Nalanda University > near Patna, Bihar (India) being destroyed during the early > 12th cent. by Moslem invaders (khalji?). It's said that > a large section of the residents there were killed. > > Does anyone have a detailed account of what happened > there and which centers were actually destroyed? > > thanks again. > > peter > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Tue Feb 9 05:20:47 1999 From: Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Toru Tomabechi) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 06:20:47 +0100 Subject: [Announcement] More online materials from Prof. Tokunaga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046073.23782.18295163348016750181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, A short note on the metric data of the MBh Prof. Tokunaga kindly offers. I wrote the program Prof. Tokunaga used quite years ago. It was developped on a 286 machine without floating point processor, using x86 assembly language (to obtain a maximum performance on that poor machine). This imposed on me a restriction in the precision of arithmetic calculation. (And I can no longer maintain the code as I completely trashed the DOS environment in favor of Linux: so please don't ask me about that old program). Now, however, the average performance and resources available on personal computers are infinitely higher than were in those old days, and it is thus possible to run some high performance scripting languages, such as perl, python, ruby, etc., with reasonable execution time and high calculative precision (and with, above all, program portability among different platforms). So I wrote a sample (and simple) perl script to obtain a somewhat refined statistic from Prof. Tokunaga's data. I believe it is quite easy, with minimum knowledge in perl, to modify the script to make it fit to one's own need. If you'd like, please try it! Toru Tomabechi, University of Lausanne ---------------------------------8<-------------------------- #!/usr/bin/perl while(<>){ chop; chop; if(/^[0-9]/){ ($num, $pat, $met) = split(/\t/, $_); $metres{$met}++; $total++; } } foreach $key (sort keys %metres){ printf ("%s: %05s/%05s ", $key, $metres{$key}, $total); printf ("(%06.3f%%)\n", ($metres{$key}/$total)*100); } print "---------------\n"; foreach $key (sort keys %metres){ if($key =~ /^zloka\(([1234PDMm])/){ $num_zloka+=$metres{$key}; $zlokas{$1}+=$metres{$key}; } } printf ("zloka total : %05d lines\n", $num_zloka); foreach $key (sort keys %zlokas){ printf ("zloka %5s : %05d/%05d (%06.3f%%)\n", $key, $zlokas{$key}, $num_zloka, ($zlokas{$key}/$num_zloka)*100); } -----------------------------------8<------------------------------ From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Tue Feb 9 12:16:40 1999 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 07:16:40 -0500 Subject: Arjuna's Despair. Message-ID: <161227046077.23782.10789055902957921707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reading so many different views of Ultimate Reality in the recent discussion on Indology reminds me of Arjuna. One view of Arjuna's despair is that it arose from so many different and confliciting philosophies that arose in the post-Vedic period. Placing this despair in the context of the epic war was a convenient literary technique. The Gita then offers a resolution through its Yoga of Works and Devotion. Harsha V. Dehejia 256, Elgin Street, Ottawa, ON Canada. K2P 1L9. Telephone 613-233-3103 Facsimile 613-829-2560 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janbrz at MICROTEC.NET Tue Feb 9 17:18:28 1999 From: janbrz at MICROTEC.NET (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 09:18:28 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046085.23782.13499161138829416759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Why was tad dhi chosen rather than tadd hi? That way, the latter word would preserve its original form, as is usually the case in these transliterated sandhis. Jan From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 9 09:42:04 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 09:42:04 +0000 Subject: [Announcement] Early Buddhist Manuscripts Project's website (fwd) Message-ID: <161227046075.23782.10623127818218757474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have added a link to the INDOLOGY website for this new MSS site. -- Dominik Wujastyk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:25:59 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Grosenheider Subject: Announcement -- Early Buddhist Manuscripts Project's website (fwd) The British Library / University of Washington Early Buddhist Manuscripts Project was founded in September 1996 in order to promote the study, editing, and publication of a unique collection of fifty-seven fragments of Buddhist manuscripts on birch bark scrolls, written in the Kharosthi script and the Gandhari (Prakrit) language that were acquired by the British Library in 1994. The manuscripts date from, most likely, the first century A.D., and as such are the oldest surviving Buddhist texts, which promise to provide unprecedented insights into the early history of Buddhism in north India and in central and east Asia. For more information on this project and its personnel, publications and presentations please view its recently constructed home page at: http://depts.washington.edu/ebmp/ thanks, alan g. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Alan Grosenheider 206 543 8405 alang at u.washington.edu International Studies Catalog Librarian monographic services | uw libraries | box 352900 | seattle wa 98195-2900 ,_ _ _ _ ANANTAM SASTRAM APARA VIDYA ["study is without end, wisdom is boundless"] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Tue Feb 9 15:50:58 1999 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 09:50:58 -0600 Subject: Sanskrit writing on Mesopotamian Mathematical problems Message-ID: <161227046106.23782.3459410820037468283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> look on your hard drive for a directory that looks something like "temporary INTERNET files". There may be thousands of files, so you may want to go to the view menu and change sorting to "date" if you know about when you saw this site. From one of these files you can get back to the URL. -----Original Message----- From: Narahari Achar To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Sanskrit writing on Mesopotamian Mathematical problems >Dear Members: >While surfing on the net I stumbled on a nonexistent URL linking for >Sanskrit writing on Mesopotamian mathematical problems. I don't know how >I got there, all of my attempts to retrace my path failed. Does any body >know about such writings? Any references? Thanks in advance-Narahari >Achar > From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 9 19:06:20 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (harry spier) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 11:06:20 -0800 Subject: More on word splitting and hyphenation in transliteration Message-ID: <161227046093.23782.1515047944984767088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for the replies to my question about guidelines or accepted standards for word splitting and hyphenation in roman transliteration. I was surprised by the answer for the reason stated by Dr. Smith in his letter. (see letters from Dr. Smith and Dr. Killingley dated Feb. 8) As he indicates putting spaces between words wherever possible results in some unpronounceable words being written separately in roman. i.e. "tv asti" for "tvasti" etc. This is the very problem that I am trying to avoid. I am preparing a new edition of the Bhagavad Geeta for publication which will contain both the devanagari and the roman transliteration. One of the uses of the edition will be to chant the Geeta. Some of those who use the text will have Hindi as a first language and use the devanagari, and some of those who use it will have English as a first language. In general the majority will not know Sanskrit. 1) Isn't this one of the main uses of written Sanskrit (both now and historically)? i.e. as an aid to proper recitation for those who do not know the text by memory. And shouldn't any standard address this need. The pronounciation of the written phrase "tvidam" is much more obvious than the phrase written as "tv idam" etc.. A space intuitively indicates hiatus. 2) Also this standard seems to fall somewhere in the middle. Of course not producing a pada text, but making a samhita text "look" outwardly a little like a pada text. i.e. looking like individual words. Thus making some difficulties for recitation but not really making it much easier for analysis. 3) My idea was to either: a) Have the roman transliteration mirror the devanagari. (To my western trained eye this made long undivided sentences seem complicated.) I think Dr. Killingley indicates in his letter that this is an alternative practice. b) Put spaces between words except where there were any changes due to sandhi. Thus avoiding the problem of unpronouncable words and making the text easier to chant by avoiding both unpronouncable words being written separately and extremely long unbroken syllable strings. Is this an acceptable practice? Comments or Suggestions Please. Thank you Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU Tue Feb 9 17:06:34 1999 From: nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 11:06:34 -0600 Subject: Sanskrit writing on Mesopotamian Mathematical problems Message-ID: <161227046090.23782.12595284847336178435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members: While surfing on the net I stumbled on a nonexistent URL linking for Sanskrit writing on Mesopotamian mathematical problems. I don't know how I got there, all of my attempts to retrace my path failed. Does any body know about such writings? Any references? Thanks in advance-Narahari Achar From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 9 21:17:38 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 13:17:38 -0800 Subject: Nalanda University Message-ID: <161227046098.23782.2076841312126414135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---"J.B. Sharma" wrote: > ... There remain competing histories in place for medevial India (as > they do for ancient India as well) ... Do you mean by 'competing histories' for 'ancient India', the school advocated by David Frawley etal.,? Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Tue Feb 9 14:05:13 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 14:05:13 +0000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <36C034BA.E551EBD8@merkur.net> Message-ID: <161227046081.23782.16610769747593653982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Rolf Koch wrote: > the standard is in my opinion: tat hi or taddhi or in roman tad-dhi but > as fas as I have learned never tad dhi. All publications just do not > accept the writing tad dhi. Some prefer taddhi (sandhi), others tad-dhi > (problem) and others tat hi (without sandhi) greetings This is simply wrong. The form "taddhi" has nothing to do with sandhi but is an attempt to reproduce Nagari word-splitting conventions in a script where they are not appropriate. The form "tad-dhi" could only be taken as meaning that the two elements have been joined into a compound, where in fact they are separate words. The form "tat hi" is a pre-sandhi form, useful perhaps in a context of elementary language instruction, but with no wider currency. As I said earlier, cases of this sort have been written "tad dhi" by professional Sanskritists (to whom the original question was directed) for maybe a century and a half. This is also the only usage sanctioned by the incoming ISO standard. These are not my opinions; they are facts. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From roheko at MERKUR.NET Tue Feb 9 13:14:35 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 14:14:35 +0100 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046079.23782.3398811398402514269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> the standard is in my opinion: tat hi or taddhi or in roman tad-dhi but as fas as I have learned never tad dhi. All publications just do not accept the writing tad dhi. Some prefer taddhi (sandhi), others tad-dhi (problem) and others tat hi (without sandhi) greetings John Smith wrote: > On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Rolf Koch wrote: > > > nagari taddhi means tat hi (and not tad dhi) > > nagari tattvasti means tat tu asti (and not tat tv asti), etc > > > > > > greetings > > > > John Smith wrote: > > > > > ... > > Of course -- that's why they are to be written tad dhy asti, tat tv asti > as I originally said. Or are you suggesting something different? > > I should perhaps have said that this Roman usage has been standard for > many years, and is enshrined in the draft ISO standard for transliteration > of Indian languages (ISO/TC46/SC2). > > John Smith > > -- > Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk > Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) > Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 > Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 9 22:39:42 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 14:39:42 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046103.23782.3168528591102265891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Seeing the interesting topics covered under avagraha, word splittings and hypenation conventions. Can the incoming ISO standard of Roman script for Indic tongues be applied in an all India scale? Brushing aside ethnonationalistic passions, are there any valid reasons to keep so many Indian scripts? The world is more a global village than ever and the pace is accelerating. All India Roman script will boost interstate and international trade and communications. Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From victor at NIAS.KU.DK Tue Feb 9 14:07:35 1999 From: victor at NIAS.KU.DK (Victor van Bijlert) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 15:07:35 +0100 Subject: Indian Ocean studies Message-ID: <161227046083.23782.2246153032057923245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would anybody know if there exist discussion groups on the overseas trade history in the Indian Ocean / Bay of Bengal, from the beginning of the seventeenth up to the middle of the nineteenth century. This trade would involve equally the Western high seas trade as the indigenous intra-Asian sea trade. Incidentally, I have received more than enough contributions on the Hindu concept of time, for which many thanks to all who cared to respond! Yours truly Victor A.van Bijlert NIAS, Leifsgade 33 DK-2300, Copenhagen S Denmark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Tue Feb 9 15:10:05 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 15:10:05 +0000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046087.23782.11974393479266713629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Jan Brzezinski wrote: > Why was tad dhi chosen rather than tadd hi? That way, the latter word > would preserve its original form, as is usually the case in these > transliterated sandhis. Because it only preserves its "original form" by virtue of the fact that conventional Romanisation uses "h" after a stop to indicate aspiration -- i.e. one is taking advantage of a "side-effect". Writing "tadd hi" is an open invitation to incorrect rendering back into Nagari (etc.). This is not the only case where the initial of the second word undergoes change: tat zrutvA > tac chrutvA, etc. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU Tue Feb 9 20:49:13 1999 From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 15:49:13 -0500 Subject: More on word splitting and hyphenation in transliteration Message-ID: <161227046095.23782.3196160445001232824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his latest letter, Harry Spier made his original question very clear and I would like to propose a solution as follows. As I understand, the problem is that one likes to have the roman text follow the devnagari saMhitaa version closely to help recitation/recognition but it is better to have split words to help analysis. How about using a centered dot ? in place of a space. For example write tv?asti in place of tv asti or tvasti. if this is done systematically, then a computer can easily perform the necessary analysis as well. In his version of Ashhtaadhyaayii, S.M. Katre had indeed used the symbols - and = to break words, where one indicated a samaasa and the other a sandhi. While logically correct, the symbols are distracting to read and recite. It would be nice, however, to come up with another non distracting symbol. BTW, the center dot is has ascii code 0183, in standard roman font. They are the same in the csx font. if you want to type it in. It is possible to use a bold version "?" too, namely the ascii code 0149, but I don't know if it is sufficiently distinct. harry spier wrote: > >snip..snip > > This is the very problem that I am trying to avoid. I am preparing a > new edition of the Bhagavad Geeta for publication which will contain > both the devanagari and the roman transliteration. One of the uses of > the edition will be to chant the Geeta. Some of those who use the text > will have Hindi as a first language and use the devanagari, and some of > those who use it will have English as a first language. In general the > majority will not know Sanskrit. > > 1) Isn't this one of the main uses of written Sanskrit (both now and > historically)? i.e. as an aid to proper recitation for those who do not > know the text by memory. And shouldn't any standard address this need. > The pronounciation of the written phrase "tvidam" is much more obvious > than the phrase written as "tv idam" etc.. A space intuitively > indicates hiatus. > Snip>..Snip... > -- |Avinash Sathaye Phone:(606)277-0130(Home), (606)257-8832(Office) | Web page: www.ms.uky.edu/~sohum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU Tue Feb 9 17:28:46 1999 From: jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 17:28:46 +0000 Subject: Nalanda University In-Reply-To: <19990209211738.12134.rocketmail@web308.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046101.23782.10743927021169358512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan, by competing histories I do not just mean the Frawley, Kak, Fuersten (sp?) et al. The magazine "Hinduism Today" has a timeline of ancient Indian history which I doubt is contributed by the above mentioned folks. There also remains the theory propounded by Colin Renfrew. There are many Websites by other folks which also question the AIT/AMT (one interesting site is by a Leonard Reuter). These types of websites seem to have increased over the years. Furthermore, discussions on this forum on the topic do not point to an unambiguous view of the ancient India and its chronologies well. The Linguists and the Archeologists just do not agree. Since Historical Science does speak of events embedded in space and time, the scientific process does apply here. The venerable naturalist/biologist Edmund Wilson of Harvard (who just passed away recently) speaks of the idea of 'consilence'; how all theories in science end up connecting so beautifully with each other (physics, chemistry, earth science, biology etc). He did accuse anthropologists etc of coming up with theories having not much to do with reality. (No offence meant to any scholar here; I am just paraphrasing). This implies for a 'historical science' model to be valid ALL the available evidence must fit. This is not the case with AIT/AMT and associated chronologies as currently propounded. So the question remains; How must the independant and concerned scholar position himself/herself upon examination of all the evidence, on the bane of competing histories in India ? Regards, J.B. Sharma > ---"J.B. Sharma" wrote: > > ... There remain competing histories in place for medevial India (as > > they do for ancient India as well) ... > > Do you mean by 'competing histories' for 'ancient India', the > school advocated by David Frawley etal.,? > > Swaminathan Madhuresan > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 10 13:50:03 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 05:50:03 -0800 Subject: Tevaram readings (was Re: madhura subhASiNI of mAyUram) Message-ID: <161227046117.23782.13226059267343328698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Dr. J-L. Chevillard for checking with Sri TVG. Checking Tevaram, The Goddess Umai is called aJcolaaL in 4 places. In spite of the old print editions, TVG has made the correction 'aJcolaaL' into 'aJcalaaL'. Perhaps, the current name 'abhayAmbA' may have played a role in this. It will be good to see what the Chola inscriptions say. The four places where aJcalaaL occurs in Tevaram are: 1) majncar tAm malarkoTu vAn2avar vaNagkiTa vejncolAr vETarOTu ATavar virumpavE aJcolAL umaiyoTum amarvu iTam aNi kalaic ^^^^^^^ cejn colAr payiltarum tiru mutukun2RamE. 2) nejncin2ait tUymai ceytu nin2aikkumA nin2aippiyAtE vajncamE ceytiyAlO vAn2avar talaivan2E nI; majncu aTai cOlait tillai malku ciRRampalattE aJcolAL kANa nin2Ru azaka nI ATum ARE ^^^^^^^ 3) vejncin2a veLUrti uTaiyAy pORRi viricaTaimEl veLLam paTaittAy pORRi tujncAp palitErum tOn2RAl pORRi tozutakai tun2pam tuTaippAy pORRi najncu oTugkum kaNTattu nAtA pORRi nAlmaRaiyOTu ARu agkam An2Ay pORRi aJcolAL pAkam amarntAy pORRi alai keTila vIraTTattu ALvAy pORRi ^^^^^^^ 4) veJcin2ak kaTum kAlan2 viraikilAn2; aJcu iRappum piRappum aRukkalAm; - maJcan2, mA mayilADu tuRaiyuRai aJcolAL umai paGkan2 aruLilE! ^^^^^^^ In all the above places, Uma is said to have 'sweet speech'. madhura vacanAmbikA/subhASiNI would be more literal rendering. I was going through the epithets used by Tevaram authors to describe Parvati. In about 140 places, Uma's feminine qualities, similies to her body parts are used and Nowhere, Tevaram speaks of Uma bestowing 'abhaya'. For example, the 'madhura vacana' aspect of Parvati can be seen in the following phrases from Tevaram: Goddess - Temple site: ---------------------- karumpu amaru mozi maTavAL - kOyil (Chidambaram) kuyil Arum men2 moziyAL - maNaJcEri karumpoTu paTum colin2 maTantai - puRampayam maTa mozi maGkai - vEtikuTi paNNin2 nEr moziyAL - karukAvUr paN taTavu colli - tEvUr yAzan2a mozi umai - viLamar tEn2 mozip pAvai - kOTTUr pAlin2 moziyAL - vAymUr yAzaip pazittan2n2a mozi maGkai - maRaikkATu aJcol aNiyizai - paraGkun2Ru tEn2il poli moziyAL - koTumkun2Ram tEn2 amarum mozi mAtu - koTumuTi iLamkiLLai arivai - acciRupAkkam(Whose speech is as sweet as a parrot). >Because of so many parallels, I submit that 'aJcolAL' is the >old, original name of the Goddess at Maayuuram. >Mistaking it as 'aJcalAL', it was translated as >'abhayAmbA'. Note that Goddess is never described >in Tevaram with the function of giving abhaya/anjal. > >In the French Institute of Pondichery, Tevaram edition >T. V. Gopal Iyer has corrected this to be 'aJcalAL". >But old Tevaram editions call this term 'aJcolAL'. >May be the underlying assumption is Sanskrit name ought >to be correct. >>Comparing the Tamil originals to Sanskrit renderings >>will yield interesting data. With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 10 15:48:15 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 07:48:15 -0800 Subject: Nalanda University Message-ID: <161227046125.23782.2383216785556687624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---"J.B. Sharma" wrote: > The magazine "Hinduism Today" has a timeline of > ancient Indian history which I doubt is contributed by the above > mentioned folks. HT is highly populist in nature. Reputed scholars say "HT butters its bread on both sides" and HT "characteristically long on self-promotion, and SHORT on research and facts". Leonard Reuter does not ring a bell. Please give me the URL. As far as I can find, Frawley and Kak are the forerunners of the so called "competent theory on ancient India". Give me some citations from University publications. Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU Wed Feb 10 08:58:32 1999 From: jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 08:58:32 +0000 Subject: Nalanda University (correction) In-Reply-To: <2B2692B5685@Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU> Message-ID: <161227046119.23782.11898931879874956320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Folks, this is to correct an indverdant mistake on my post yesterday regarding competing histories of ancient India. I meant to refer to the scientist/biologist Edward O. Wilson and his work "Consilience - The Unity of Knowledge", and not Edmund Wilson , the literary figure. Regards to all, J.B. Sharma From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Feb 10 14:12:26 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 09:12:26 -0500 Subject: Tevaram readings (was Re: madhura subhASiNI of mAyUram) Message-ID: <161227046121.23782.13871242836347321224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/10/99 3:43:21 AM Central Standard Time, jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR quotes Gopal Iyer who writes: > aJcolAL is a common attribute to Umai. But in this holy place > she has the speciality of removing the fear of devotees. > So Dr. U.V. Swaminatha Iyer has written in his notes > that aJcalAL will give better meaning. We have taken > that reading. The goddess in MayilATutuRai is being called > as aJcalnAyaki even today. > > T.V.Gopal Iyer Gopal Iyer's defense of the reading "aJcalAL" seems to be very weak. With due respect to UVS, I submit that the Goddess may be highlighted as a refuge in other texts dedicated to her. But here ziva is the main god. So we should look for internal evidence within the text as much as possible. The fact that the goddess is called aJcalnAyaki today cannot be used as defense because that is precisely where the problem lies, as in the case of "oppiliyappan2" vs."uppiliyappan2" where some rituals have arisen based on the wrong name "uppiliyappan2". Moreover, within the specific verse, the refuge in the implied story of mArkaNDeya was ziva and not the Goddess. I do not think "aJcalAL" occurs anywhere else in tEvAram. If it did, Iyer would have shown us that. And aJcolAL does occur elsewhere. So, I would prefer the reading aJcolAL. Regards S. Palaniappan From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 10 09:35:51 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 09:35:51 +0000 Subject: [Announcement] Workshop on Indian palaeography Message-ID: <161227046108.23782.9179425759009246681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:45:53 +0000 (BST) From: Humanist Discussion Group To: Humanist Discussion Group Subject: 12.0409 conferences & calls Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 12, No. 409. Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London [1] From: "David L. Gants" (59) Subject: Cataloguing South and West Asian Manuscripts Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:44:04 +0000 >> From: Kim_Plofker at Brown.edu (Kim Plofker) The American Committee for South Asian Manuscripts (ACSAM) of the American Oriental Society is pleased to announce two workshops in non-Western palaeography and codicology, to be held at Columbia University in New York City from 31 May through 18 June 1999: 1. Manuscripts in Nagari and related North Indian scripts, directed by David Pingree of Brown University. 2. Manuscripts in Arabic and Persian, directed by Adam Gacek of McGill University. Goal of the Workshops: ACSAM's Cataloguing Project -------------------------------------------------- The workshops will train advanced graduate students to become data-gatherers for ACSAM's project to catalogue all Indic and Islamic manuscripts preserved in North American collections. The resulting Union Descriptive Catalogue will be published in printed and electronic form: a draft of the prototype of the electronic version is available for viewing at http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/acsam/ now. The Catalogue is a text-based electronic bibliographical tool structured in SGML; it is currently presented via Inso's DynaWeb text delivery system. The sample entries in the prototype describe some of the Indic manuscripts at Columbia University. Full physical descriptions of the manuscripts and detailed identifications of the works they contain are presented in separate sections, with active links connecting entries in each section to the corresponding entries in the other, as well as to additional biographical and geographical information about the people and places mentioned in the catalogue. Development of the prototype is currently continuing, to enhance features such as formatting, fonts, and searches. Information about the Workshops ------------------------------- (The following information may also be found at http://www.brown.edu/Departments/History_Mathematics/workshops.html.) It is expected that the process of gathering data about all relevant North American manuscripts and completing the Union Descriptive Catalogue therefrom will extend over twelve or more years. The data-gatherers for the first summer will be paid their basic living expenses and a stipend of $12.00 an hour. This compensation is contingent on our receiving funding; we will not know the extent to which we have been funded until April 1999. We hope to be able to employ several Arabists, Persianists, and Sanskritists for the summer of 1999. In case we receive no funding, the summer 1999 workshops and data-gathering will have to be cancelled. Although the amount of funding that will be available will not be known before next April, applications are invited now. Candidates must have completed at least two years of a PhD program that requires substantial expertise in one or more of the three languages, Arabic, Persian, and Sanskrit, including at least two years of study of the language whose palaeography he or she wishes to learn. Each candidate must submit undergraduate and graduate transcripts, three letters of recommendation, at least two of which should be from language instructors, and a statement (one or two pages) of his or her interest in and familiarity with manuscript studies. Applications should be sent before 1 April 1999 to: Professor David Pingree Brown University, Box 1900 Providence, RI 02912 USA ------- Kim Plofker Technical Director, ACSAM Kim_Plofker at Brown.edu From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Wed Feb 10 09:39:43 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 10:39:43 +0100 Subject: Tevaram readings (was Re: madhura subhASiNI of mAyUram) In-Reply-To: <19990127011451.12399.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046110.23782.11705744593439460205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 26th january 1999, N. Ganesan wrote that: >.......................... >Because of so many parallels, I submit that 'aJcolAL' is the >old, original name of the Goddess at Maayuuram. >Mistaking it as 'aJcalAL', it was translated as >'abhayAmbA'. Note that Goddess is never described >in Tevaram with the function of giving abhaya/anjal. > >In the French Institute of Pondichery, Tevaram edition >T. V. Gopal Iyer has corrected this to be 'aJcalAL". >But old Tevaram editions call this term 'aJcolAL'. >May be the underlying assumption is Sanskrit name ought >to be correct. I have submitted Dr Ganesan's remark to TVG (he is in Pondicherry and he is not online; it takes time to correspond with him) and he has made the following comment, which I reproduce verbatim (hopefully without typing mistake!) -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) P.S. I simply add as my comment that in Vol.3 of Tevaram (French Institute of Pondicherry, 68.3, 1991) the reading aJcolAL is mentionned by TVG on page 490 (verse 5628). *************** T V G 'S R E M A R K ************* Patikams on MayilATutuRai: I-38, III-70, V-39 (Totally 3) In every patikam, the goddess Umai finds place in one stanza, with special reference. I-38-7: aNaGkOTu orupAkam amarntu // iNaGki aruLceytavan2 "Being united with Umai Civan showers grace on the devotees." III-70-4: ... taTa mArpu atu iTamAka uRaikin2Ra perumAn2 "Civan is residing in the chest (mind) of Umai." V-39-4: veJcin2ak kaTuG kAlan2 viraikilAn2; // aJcu iRappum piRappum aRukkal Am // maJcan2, mA mayilATutuRai uRai // aJcalAL umaipaGkan2, aruLilE. "By the grace of Civan who has Umai giving shelter to devotees, as his half, we can remove our fear about death and birth. The god of death will not come fast to take away our lives." aJcolAL is a common attribute to Umai. But in this holy place she has the speciality of removing the fear of devotees. So Dr. U.V. Swaminatha Iyer has written in his notes that aJcalAL will give better meaning. We have taken that reading. The goddess in MayilATutuRai is being called as aJcalnAyaki even today. T.V.Gopal Iyer ************ E N D OF R E M A R K ********************************* From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 10 19:16:40 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 11:16:40 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046137.23782.10329231574161631438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The whole chapter in Xi Yu Ji, where Xuan Zang describes the >Malaya Mountain is considered later forgery by all Chinese >commentators I have seen. In what period, would this have been added? Any idea? > >Buddhist texts clearly show that "potala" and > >"potalaka" are simply alternate names of the same place in > >potiyil/potiyam/potikai. >What are the other texts? In GaNDavyUha sUtra, Potalaka occurs for the first time as the abode of Avalokitezvara. Chinese like to shorten Potalaka (Pu-ta-lo-chia) as P'u-t'o. (cf. Chun-fang Yu, Prof. of Religion); Likewise, In Tibet, Potala is a short form of Potalaka. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Feb 10 16:49:34 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 11:49:34 -0500 Subject: Position announcement : South Asia technician at Library of Congress Message-ID: <161227046128.23782.18074682243914338766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is an opening for a library technician knowing one or more South Asian languages in the Asian Division of the Library of Congress. I am requested to distribute the posting widely. Unfortunately I am required to distribute the entire announcement which is quite a large file and beyond the limits of Indology postings. If anyone will contact me directly (not via Indology) I will send the summary announcement as a message and the entire announcement as an attachment to them directly. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK Wed Feb 10 12:09:58 1999 From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (Dermot Killingley) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 12:09:58 +0000 Subject: More on word splitting and hyphenation in transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990209190620.4399.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046115.23782.4247207808918006717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >putting spaces between words wherever possible results in > some unpronounceable words being written separately in roman. i.e. "tv > asti" for "tvasti" etc. True, but I don't think that is objectionable. If you know how to pronounce Sanskrit (and there is no point in using a written text for recitation if you do not know one of the many ways of pronouncing it) you will soon get used to words which are not syllables, or which end in non-syllables. Further, sandhi in recitation may not follow the same rules as written sandhi, so you are free to pronounce written 'tv' as 'tu' if it's more comfortable. > not producing a pada text, but making a samhita text "look" outwardly a > little like a pada text. i.e. looking like individual words. Unless you have a true pada text, you won't separate sequences such as tadovAca (tadA/uvAca). > a) Have the roman transliteration mirror the devanagari. (To my western > trained eye this made long undivided sentences seem complicated.) I > think Dr. Killingley indicates in his letter that this is an alternative > practice. I also tried to indicate, gently, that I thought it a pointless practice. Dermot Dr Dermot Killingley (Reader in Hindu Studies) Department of Religious Studies, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Tel: (0191) 222 6730. Fax: (0191) 222 5185 From roheko at MERKUR.NET Wed Feb 10 11:42:24 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 12:42:24 +0100 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046113.23782.12280644177871855870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Because the texts alltogether lead to the following conclusion: an initial h ( eg. hi) softens a preceeding mute (eg. tat becomes tad) and is being changed itself to the soft aspirate of that mute (eg. h becomes dh since dh is the soft aspirate of the mute t). tat hi becomes taddhi but never tad dhi. Jan Brzezinski wrote: > Why was tad dhi chosen rather than tadd hi? That way, the latter word would preserve its original form, as is usually the case in these transliterated sandhis. > > Jan From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Feb 10 18:10:33 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (michael witzel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 13:10:33 -0500 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046132.23782.2342695769514488848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik, I agree with your sentiments in both cases, but: > All India Roman script will boost interstate and international trade >> and communications. > >Great idea. Will you do it, or shall I? The idea actually was that of the great ("National Prof.") Suniti Kumar Chatterji who in 1947 spirit thought Roman Indic would serve the country best. His alphabet was similar to the Kyoto-Harvard convention, -- and for similar reasons: no extra characters needed in print shops. >Oh, and while we're about it, let's make everyone speak English, since >other languages are just a nuisance. And many unfortunately disappear by the day : the world-isolate Kusunda in Nepal is gone, what about the future of the equally isolated Nahali in C. India, Burushaski in Hunza (new book by H Berger, 1998!), etc.? ... Not to speak of others. Urgent research targets. Michael Witzel DEPARTMENT OF SANSKRIT AND INDIAN STUDIES HARVARD UNIVERSITY 2 DIVINITY AVENUE CAMBRIDGE, MA 02138, U.S.A. (617) 495-3295 FAX: (617) 496-8571 direct: 496-2990 email witzel at fas.harvard. edu home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 10 21:44:48 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 13:44:48 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046142.23782.6532652856936441454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Petr Mares writes: >The whole chapter in Xi Yu Ji, where Xuan Zang describes the >Malaya Mountain is considered later forgery by all Chinese >commentators I have seen . I have a question and since I do not read Chinese, hope some Sinologists can answer. What century Malaya Mountain chapter in Xi Yu Ji ascribed to? >?From 10th century and later, Chinese texts and paintings portray Mount Potalaka as though it is in an island. This is despite the fact that the two earliest Chinese translations of the GaNDavyUha sUtra never mention Mount Potalaka in an island! (cf. A. C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhist art in China). Also, from the preceding kalyanamitra location, Sudhana travels by horse carriage to Mt. Potalaka in Borobudur basreliefs. This is surprising because no boats are depicted to Mt. Potalaka in Borobudur! Note that Borobudur sculptors are skillful in depicting sea vessels elsewhere. So, my question is: Does the Chinese commentators consider the chapter where Malaya Mountain and Mt. Potalaka occur as a later day "forgery" because at the time of commentators there is a well established Chinese tradition to take Mt. Potalaka in an island? Even though their earlier tradition puts it in South India. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 10 15:26:04 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 15:26:04 +0000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990209223942.21917.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046123.23782.1932912686358208062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Christopher Fernandez wrote: > All India Roman script will boost interstate and international trade > and communications. Great idea. Will you do it, or shall I? Oh, and while we're about it, let's make everyone speak English, since other languages are just a nuisance. :-) From jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU Wed Feb 10 15:54:40 1999 From: jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 15:54:40 +0000 Subject: Nalanda University In-Reply-To: <19990210154815.29980.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046139.23782.3311990501145308976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan, I have no problem with what 'reputed scholars' or you think of HT magazine or any other theory, as I believe that you (or 'they') have good reasons for it. I This was not the point of my post. I wished to comment on the process and methodology of 'historical science'; no more and no less. As for citations, your question seeking them is unclear as to citations for what ? Furthermore I dont want to be drawn into a debate where I have not made up my mind on the propositions involved. As energetic young scholars do more work and there is more input from areas like the Human Genome Project (to establish movement of people in ancient times), Archeology, Geology, Linguistics etc to create a coherent model, the propositions in question are undecideable and we can only ascribe likelihoods to each possibility (as yet). I really have no more to add to that. Regards, J.B. Sharma > ---"J.B. Sharma" wrote: > > The magazine "Hinduism Today" has a timeline of > > ancient Indian history which I doubt is contributed by the above > > mentioned folks. > > HT is highly populist in nature. Reputed scholars say > "HT butters its bread on both sides" and HT "characteristically > long on self-promotion, and SHORT on research and facts". > > Leonard Reuter does not ring a bell. Please give me the URL. > As far as I can find, Frawley and Kak are the forerunners > of the so called "competent theory on ancient India". Give me some > citations from University publications. > > Swaminathan Madhuresan > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 10 16:49:51 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 16:49:51 +0000 Subject: ayurveda in Europe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046130.23782.18159832746464995331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Bo Klintberg wrote: > 1) When was ayurvedic knowledge introduced in Europe? See Zysk, Medicine in the Veda (Delhi, 1996), pp.261-276, "Bibliographical Essay", which is a good historiography of European ayurveda studies. See also Arion Rosu, Un demi-siecle de recherches ayurvediques: Gustave Lietard et Palmyr Cordier, travaux sur l'histoire de la medicine indienne. Documents reunis e presentes (Paris, 1989), which has a long and important historiographical introduction. There is a brief but useful summary in English. > 2) Was the knowledge transferred by Arabian scholas (al-Biruni, et al)? Yes, there were Arabic translations of several major ayurvedic texts. These were not very influential, however, with the exception of at-Tabari's Firdaws al-Hikma, which was a popular Arabic work written in c.850 and gave a longish summary of ayurvedic ideas. See Manfred Ullmann, Islamic Medicine (Edinburgh, 1978), p.20 et passim. > 3) Does the knowledge in the Ayur-vedic scriptures talk about the > circulation of the blood? (i.e. is it possible that Harvey could have > gotten the idea from ayurveda?) No, this is completely impossible. There is no concept of blood circulation in pre-modern Sanskrit texts, ayurvedic or otherwise. The metaphors tend to be agricultural: irrigation, ebb and flow, flowing through, but not round. The heart is most commonly described in ayurvedic literature as a downward facing lotus. I am not aware of more detailed descriptions, for example of the ventricles. Nor is there any awareness shown of the crucial question of how the blood gets to the left ventricle and into the arterial system (which is also not distinguished in ayurveda from the venous system). These issues were taken up by Islamic scholars in the thirteenth century. Ibn-an-Nafis of Damascus, in particular, wrote a commentary on Ibn-Sina's al-Qanun in which he made a number of penetrating remarks about the exact functioning of the heart, lungs, and blood. He clearly understands that the blood cannot pass through the heart's septum (i.e., between the ventricles). He dismisses Galen's theory of an invisible passage which would carry the blood through the septum. Ibn-an-Nafis effectively describes the circulation between the heart and the lungs, moving in and out of the ventricles separately without crossing through the heart. See Ullmann, pp.68f. In this he was correct, and appears to be the very first physician to understand this issue. His description stops short, however, of a full description of blood circulation a la Harvey. There no evidence that Harvey knew anything whatsoever about ayurveda, although it is not impossible that he may have been acquainted with some Arabic medical works. I'm afraid I simply don't know. It seems very unlikely. Further, the descriptions by Harvey of his own experimental work establish beyond reasonable doubt that he developed his ideas independently. > 4) What are the best, from an academic, scholarly, standpoint, books on > ayurveda? And where do I find references about transmission issues? Modesty forbids, of course. The classic work Indian Medicine by Julius Jolly (1901, Eng. tr. repr. Delhi 1977) is still very useful, since it functions as an index to the original texts on a wide range of important and well-organized topics. See also the recently announced History of Indian Medical Literature by G. Jan Meulenbeld (Groningen 1999, ISBN 90 6980 124 8) which is extremely important, and will revolutionize the field with a mass of new information on all aspects of the history of ayurveda. Five volumes, fl. 1100! Has many passages on transmission issues. There are many other books that could be mentioned. See the bibliographies to Zysk's Medicine in the Veda, and my Roots. Best wishes, -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road London NW1 2BE, UK FAX: +44 171 611 8545 http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Wed Feb 10 21:59:59 1999 From: klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Bo Klintberg) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 16:59:59 -0500 Subject: ayurveda in Europe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046150.23782.13350140232907671402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, I just want to thank you much for this comprehensive and useful information. It's exactly what I was looking for! I hope that your health is OK and that you have all success in your carreer as well as in your private life. Best wishes from Toronto, Bo Klintberg. -------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Bo Klintberg wrote: > > > 1) When was ayurvedic knowledge introduced in Europe? > > See Zysk, Medicine in the Veda (Delhi, 1996), pp.261-276, "Bibliographical > Essay", which is a good historiography of European ayurveda studies. > > See also Arion Rosu, Un demi-siecle de recherches ayurvediques: Gustave > Lietard et Palmyr Cordier, travaux sur l'histoire de la medicine indienne. > Documents reunis e presentes (Paris, 1989), which has a long and important > historiographical introduction. There is a brief but useful summary in > English. > > > 2) Was the knowledge transferred by Arabian scholas (al-Biruni, et al)? > > Yes, there were Arabic translations of several major ayurvedic texts. > These were not very influential, however, with the exception of > at-Tabari's Firdaws al-Hikma, which was a popular Arabic work written in > c.850 and gave a longish summary of ayurvedic ideas. See Manfred Ullmann, > Islamic Medicine (Edinburgh, 1978), p.20 et passim. > > > 3) Does the knowledge in the Ayur-vedic scriptures talk about the > > circulation of the blood? (i.e. is it possible that Harvey could have > > gotten the idea from ayurveda?) > > No, this is completely impossible. There is no concept of blood > circulation in pre-modern Sanskrit texts, ayurvedic or otherwise. The > metaphors tend to be agricultural: irrigation, ebb and flow, flowing > through, but not round. The heart is most commonly described in ayurvedic > literature as a downward facing lotus. I am not aware of more detailed > descriptions, for example of the ventricles. Nor is there any awareness > shown of the crucial question of how the blood gets to the left ventricle > and into the arterial system (which is also not distinguished in ayurveda > from the venous system). > > These issues were taken up by Islamic scholars in the thirteenth century. > Ibn-an-Nafis of Damascus, in particular, wrote a commentary on Ibn-Sina's > al-Qanun in which he made a number of penetrating remarks about the exact > functioning of the heart, lungs, and blood. He clearly understands that > the blood cannot pass through the heart's septum (i.e., between the > ventricles). He dismisses Galen's theory of an invisible passage which > would carry the blood through the septum. Ibn-an-Nafis effectively > describes the circulation between the heart and the lungs, moving in and > out of the ventricles separately without crossing through the heart. See > Ullmann, pp.68f. In this he was correct, and appears to be the very first > physician to understand this issue. His description stops short, however, > of a full description of blood circulation a la Harvey. > > There no evidence that Harvey knew anything whatsoever about ayurveda, > although it is not impossible that he may have been acquainted with some > Arabic medical works. I'm afraid I simply don't know. It seems very > unlikely. Further, the descriptions by Harvey of his own experimental > work establish beyond reasonable doubt that he developed his ideas > independently. > > > 4) What are the best, from an academic, scholarly, standpoint, books on > > ayurveda? And where do I find references about transmission issues? > > Modesty forbids, of course. > > The classic work Indian Medicine by Julius Jolly (1901, Eng. tr. repr. > Delhi 1977) is still very useful, since it functions as an index to the > original texts on a wide range of important and well-organized topics. > > See also the recently announced History of Indian Medical Literature by G. > Jan Meulenbeld (Groningen 1999, ISBN 90 6980 124 8) which is extremely > important, and will revolutionize the field with a mass of new information > on all aspects of the history of ayurveda. Five volumes, fl. 1100! Has > many passages on transmission issues. > > There are many other books that could be mentioned. See the > bibliographies to Zysk's Medicine in the Veda, and my Roots. > > Best wishes, > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine > 183 Euston Road > London NW1 2BE, UK > FAX: +44 171 611 8545 > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html > From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Feb 10 18:47:07 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 19:47:07 +0100 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990210211341.00869e20@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227046134.23782.16741953629895791306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >S. Beal, Si-yu-ki, Buddhist records of the Western world, 1884 > >2.233 says: > >"To the east of the Malaya mountains is Mount Po-ta-la-ka (Potalaka)." > >>> > > > > Please see the foot noteon page 230-231 by Rev.S.Beal which says > > " The distance given by south of Conjivaram seems to be exessive. > But none of the distances given by Hiuen Tsiang are to be depended upon. > ...................................................................... I > am disposed, therefore, to think that he did not go farther south than > Kanchi. In this case the subsequent account he gives us of Malakuta, Mount > Malaya and Potaraka is derived from hearsay." The whole chapter in Xi Yu Ji, where Xuan Zang describes the Malaya Mountain is considered later forgery by all Chinese commentators I have seen . > >Thus, the > >Buddhist texts clearly show that "potala" and > >"potalaka" are simply alternate names of the same place in > >potiyil/potiyam/potikai. What are the other texts? > > No more than a conjucture for which I cannot subscribe unless there > is compelling evidence. Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Feb 10 16:13:41 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 21:13:41 +0500 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains In-Reply-To: <19990208132529.6153.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046126.23782.15178970934718104193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:25 AM 2/8/99 PST, you wrote: >Mr. DVN Sarma writes: >> ... Any way the identification >>potika or potiyil with potala/potalaka is arbitrary. > ><< > Identification by Nandolal De, Nalinaksha Dutt, K. A. Nilakanta > Sastri for Mt. Potalaka as Mt. Potikai/Potiyil is NOT arbitrary. > Do they give some incontravertible evidence. >S. Beal, Si-yu-ki, Buddhist records of the Western world, 1884 >2.233 says: >"To the east of the Malaya mountains is Mount Po-ta-la-ka (Potalaka)." >>> > Please see the foot noteon page 230-231 by Rev.S.Beal which says " The distance given by south of Conjivaram seems to be exessive. But none of the distances given by Hiuen Tsiang are to be depended upon. ...................................................................... I am disposed, therefore, to think that he did not go farther south than Kanchi. In this case the subsequent account he gives us of Malakuta, Mount Malaya and Potaraka is derived from hearsay." >A Buddhist text called tARAsukkam refers to Tara, avalokitezvara as >"potalagiri nivAsinI". According to this work, avalokitezvara >bodhisattva is seated in this mountain. We know gaNDavyUha states, >"In the southern direction, there is a mountain named potalaka, >where lives a bodhisattva of the name avalokitezvara". No problem with this. The Devi on Malaya is called MalayavAsini and not potalakavAsini. >Thus, the >Buddhist texts clearly show that "potala" and >"potalaka" are simply alternate names of the same place in >potiyil/potiyam/potikai. No more than a conjucture for which I cannot subscribe unless there is compelling evidence. >Regards >N. Ganesan > > > > > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From partha at CAPITAL.NET Thu Feb 11 02:25:12 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 21:25:12 -0500 Subject: Our Nationhood Defined/Bunch of thoughts In-Reply-To: <01BE5549.6B4DFFC0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227046161.23782.16594054078953091726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Members of the Net: > >Do any of you know if the Golwalkar's works "Our nationhood defined" and >"Bunch >of thoughts" are available as electronic texts? > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse ____________________ We or Our Nationhood Defined is a pamphlet and could be easily scanned to convert electronically. Bunch of Thoughts is a large book and can't be done so easily. Hard copies are available here in case someone wants to do it. -Partha Banerjee From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Feb 10 22:01:14 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 23:01:14 +0100 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains In-Reply-To: <19990210191641.11503.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046145.23782.15539803905517342148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 7F00,0000,0000> >The whole chapter in Xi Yu Ji, where Xuan Zang describes the > >Malaya Mountain is considered later forgery by all Chinese > >commentators I have seen. > > In what period, would this have been added? Any idea? I have no XiYuJi handy but basically it just means the chapter has no relation to Xuan Zang as a person and his travel and it had to be made out of other sources. I do not think any of the current Chinese scholars believe XZ went as far as to South India. When I will have chance I will try to look the references about the forgery proves. 7F00,0000,0000> > >Buddhist texts clearly show that "potala" and > > >"potalaka" are simply alternate names of the same place in > > >potiyil/potiyam/potikai. > > > Chinese like to shorten Potalaka (Pu-ta-lo-chia) as > P'u-t'o. (cf. Chun-fang Yu, Prof. of Religion); Likewise, > In Tibet, Potala is a short form of Potalaka. Just for your interest, when I hear the name of this mountain shorten as above, the first what appear in mind in relation to Chinese Buddhism is the Buddhist island off the coast near Shanghai in Zhejiang called Pu Tuo Mountain (Pu3 Tuo2 Shan1) PU3 means universal - it is read in cantonese POU2 and in Korea it is read PO. In Bael's transcription it will be p'u. TUO2 also read DUO4 means rough terrain. It is part of the word Fuo2 Tuo2 (Chinese transcription of Buddha) (or part of the word AMiTuoFuo - Amitabha). It was used in Chinese Buddhist writing to transliterate the Sanskrit ta, da, and dha, 0100,0100,0100Times New Romansounds. ArialIn Bael's transcription it would be written 0100,0100,0100Times New Romant'o and tuo resp. ArialShan means hill. I think this island and not the mountain in South India is what will appear in the mind of any Chinese Buddhist when he will hear the name above. There are many many other small islands with name ending Shan-mountain around PuTuo Shan, it would be possible some of them is called Malaya Shan. By the way you can see how difficoult it is to guess the original word from the todays Chinese pronounciation of Ancient words, for example Fuo2Ta3 is mandarin transcription of stupa. TA3 is read in Cantonese TO4 and in Korean THA Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 2637 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Feb 10 22:01:39 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 23:01:39 +0100 Subject: Our Nationhood Defined/Bunch of thoughts Message-ID: <161227046148.23782.17908180036015178665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the Net: Do any of you know if the Golwalkar's works "Our nationhood defined" and "Bunch of thoughts" are available as electronic texts? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Feb 10 23:13:19 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 00:13:19 +0100 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains - forgeries In-Reply-To: <19990210214448.9464.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046153.23782.6465791210912502438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan I will try to check about the forgery but first I would like to make sure we are talking about the same title. I do not know any of the Western translations, so I would just like to know whether the XuanZangs geography you mention and you are interested in translated by Beal and Waters is the Da4tang2 xi1yu4ji4, Taisho 2487 written by Bian4 Ji1 0100,0100,0100Times New Roman{HYPERLINK "../aut/aut00842.htm"}in Tang Dynasty in twelve fasciculy (which is the only reliable source of information about India in relation to Xuan Zang that I know about). However only its first 10 fasciculi which never mentions South India. If this is the book you are interested I will try to find out more about the forgeries or additions. Sincerely Petr Mares ArialDate sent: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:44:48 PST Send reply to: Indology < From: "N. Ganesan" < Subject: Re: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK 7F00,0000,0000> Mr. Petr Mares writes: > >The whole chapter in Xi Yu Ji, where Xuan Zang describes the > >Malaya Mountain is considered later forgery by all Chinese > >commentators I have seen . > > > I have a question and since I do not read Chinese, hope > some Sinologists can answer. > > What century Malaya Mountain chapter in Xi Yu Ji ascribed to? > > >From 10th century and later, Chinese texts and paintings portray > Mount Potalaka as though it is in an island. This is despite > the fact that the two earliest Chinese translations of the > GaNDavyUha sUtra never mention Mount Potalaka in an island! > (cf. A. C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhist art > in China). Also, from the preceding kalyanamitra location, > Sudhana travels by horse carriage to Mt. Potalaka in > Borobudur basreliefs. This is surprising because no boats > are depicted to Mt. Potalaka in Borobudur! Note that > Borobudur sculptors are skillful in depicting sea vessels > elsewhere. > > So, my question is: > Does the Chinese commentators consider the chapter > where Malaya Mountain and Mt. Potalaka occur as a later > day "forgery" because at the time of commentators there > is a well established Chinese tradition to take > Mt. Potalaka in an island? Even though their earlier > tradition puts it in South India. > > Regards > N. Ganesan > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 2840 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Feb 11 05:44:31 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 00:44:31 -0500 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046164.23782.17444377363834663464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/10/99 4:02:33 PM Central Standard Time, erpet at COMP.CZ writes: 0100,0100,0100Times New Roman param>sounds. ArialIn > Bael's transcription it would be written 0100,0100,0100< > FontFamily>Times New Romant'o and tuo resp. Am I the only one getting gibberish like this? Does anybody know why this is happening? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Feb 10 23:47:36 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 00:47:36 +0100 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains - forgery Message-ID: <161227046156.23782.3479763383906435746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan Why I was asking the last question was, there are many books with similiarly pronounced title written hundreds years later in Ming Dynasty, which are more like fairy tales containing no facts but stories. They are called Xi1 You2 Ji4. You2 in this case mean travel or roam and they are realy in the form of travelogue. While Yu4 in the original geography means region, and the book in no way reminds story, it is more like a dictionary. If the translation of Bael looks more like a dictionary than it is the original geography (xi1yu4ji4) written by Bian4 Ji1 in Tang Dynasty. Anyways I will try to find out more about the dates of the 10th and 12th fasciculy of this book. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 11 13:16:31 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 05:16:31 -0800 Subject: Potalaka Message-ID: <161227046181.23782.7059051907969770153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< His [Hikosaka's] main linguistic argumentation has not yet been given by Kanecan, namely that potiyil is allegedly derived from *bodhi-y-il, where "y" is a gliding sound, "il" is a Tamil locative indicator and Tamil poti is allgedly derived from bodhi. >>> I agree that the Tamil 'potiyil' has nothing to do with the bodhi tree. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 11 13:51:12 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 05:51:12 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046187.23782.340800992864455990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shu Hikosaka cites TaiyU GotO's Kanzeon Bosatsu no KenkyU (A Study of Avalokitezvara Bodhisattava), p. 191, and says, "Chin-sheng (ChishO, 688-740 A.D.) of T'ang dynasty has also mentioned that Malaya country is near the Potalaka mountain which is the place of Avalokitezvara." Can an Indologist reading Japanese check Daiyu Goto's book to inform whether Chin-Sheng talks about Mt. Potalaka? Does he write that Mt. Potalaka is in the Malaya country? Regards, N. Ganesan PS: Also, interested in the approximate date/century of the Malaya mountain chapter in Hsuan Tsang. - NG ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 11 14:32:21 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 06:32:21 -0800 Subject: Potalaka Message-ID: <161227046191.23782.10898210367134064518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It is emotional because it makes >Buddhism very, very, very old in Tamilakam. anpArnta pIRRar, vaNakkam kaNakkila. Don't we have a long tradition in this? I think it was Maraimalai aDigaL who claimed Buddha was a Tamil. :-) enRum ungaL, nA. kaNecan, pozhilvAycci (Pollachi), kOvanputtUr ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From peter.schalk at RELHIST.UU.SE Thu Feb 11 05:53:30 1999 From: peter.schalk at RELHIST.UU.SE (Peter Schalk) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 06:53:30 +0100 Subject: Potalaka Message-ID: <161227046166.23782.2125954987866582855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The discussion about Potalaka belongs to a wider context of dating the establishment of Buddhism in Tamilakam. The Japanese Buddhist Shu Hikosaka has through the Institute of Asian Studies in Cennai in 1989 launched a kind of official doctrine according to which Buddhism is even pre-Asokan in Tamilakam. The invasion by Bindusara into the South is made into an invasion by Asoka himself who made a "Buddhist" invasion, that did not introduce, but revived a pre-Buddhist tradition. Part of Hikosaka's argumentation is that Potiyil was a Buddhist mountain. His main linguistic argumentation has not yet been given by Kanecan, namely that potiyil is allegedly derived from *bodhi-y-il, where "y" is a gliding sound, "il" is a Tamil locative indicator and Tamil poti is allgedly derived from bodhi. Potiyil is allegedly a place recalling the enlightenment. potalaka is regarded as a "secondary derivation" of potiyil. On this base have been piled speculations about the presence of Avalokitesvara on the mountain. A climbing expedition on the top has been made guided by the Gandhavyuha and Xuantsang to find traces of the cult of Avalokitesvara. I have tried to show-evidently in vain -that all this is associative wishful thinking of amateur historians. Vide P Schalk, "The Controversy about the Arrival of Buddhism in Tamilakam", TEMENOS 30 (1994), pp. 197-232, where this very popular and now dominating doctrine among academics in Tamilakam, and the discussion about it, is documented from both sides.This doctrine's appeal and seducing force is not intellectual. It is emotional because it makes Buddhism very, very, very old in Tamilakam. Peter Schalk, Uppsala University From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 11 15:54:47 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 07:54:47 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046196.23782.15267369272600597998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tibetologists have told me that Potala and Potalaka are one and the same place, a Mountain. The term Potalaka occurs in earlier Tibetan texts. Potala palace is named after Mt. Potalaka, the abode of Avalokitezvara (GaNDavyUha). In Tibet, Dalai Lama is considered an incarnation of Avalokitezvara. Sinologists have told also that "Chinese like to shorten Potalaka as P'u t'o and they mean one and the same". -NG --------------------------- Chun-fang Yu, P'u-t'o Shan: Pilgrimage and the Creation of the Chinese Potalaka, UCalif.p, 1992 "Such travel accounts to Mount Potalaka were well known in India and Tibet. Tucci mentions two Tibetan accounts: one *Po ta la'i lam yig*, contained in the bsTan'gyur, was written by Spyan ras gzigs dban p'yug, supposed to be Avalokitezvara himself; the other, an account written by Taaraanaatha (b. 1575) in which the travel of zAntivarman to Potala is narrated, is later than the first. The book Sheng mentioned could be the Po ta la'i lam yig. On the other hand, it could be some earlier book, for "a travel to Potala is already known to Hsuan-tsang, viz., to an author who wrote some centuries before the Po ta la'i lam yig of which we are speaking; this in fact, is certainly late as its contamination with 'Saiva ideas (the linga) clearly shows". In this account known to Hsuan-tsang, Mount Potalaka is East of Malaya Mountain. One reaches its Summit via a winding and narrow path over cliffs and gorges. At the summit is a lake from which flows a river that runs twenty times around the mountain. In a stone temple Kuan-tzu-tsai Bodhisattva dwells. Many devotees attempt to reach that place, but very few succeed. The people living at the foot of the mountain who worship him are blessed by a vision of the Bodhisattva in the aspect of Paazupata Tiirthika or Mahezvara. (G. Tucci, 1958, Minor Buddhist Texts, p. 409-500, part 2)" ----------------------------------------------------------- Is the pu-ta-lo-chia in Malaya mountain considered a late "contamination" because 'Saiva ideas come merged with Avalokitezvara. This is a major problem because many Buddhism specialists in the West and Orient and Indologists have not heard or worked in South Indian matters - texts, art, languages, etc., 'Siva and Avalokitezvara merged quite early in South India especially in Tamil Nadu. (cf. 'Siva and Avalokitezvara thread in Indology; many quotes from DasabhUmika sUtra onwards were provided). Or, Mt. pu-ta-lo-chia (Potalaka) in Malaya mountains is considered "late" beacuse the later Chinese tradition took Mt. Potalaka to an island? Hope Petr Mares will tell about the date/century of the passage given by Thomas Watters (1905) and S. Beal (1884) (not Bael) as Hsuan Tsang's travel records about Mt. Potalaka in Malaya mountains. In other words, I am merely interested in the approximate century of that passage, that's all. (Unfortunately, I do NOT read Chinese; please please don't send Chinese character scans). I read Journey to the West novel; There are four follow ups to that 16th century novel also. I am not talking of these. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Feb 11 08:40:25 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 09:40:25 +0100 Subject: SV: Our Nationhood Defined/Bunch of thoughts Message-ID: <161227046171.23782.3971329630837570219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: Partha Banerjee [SMTP:partha at CAPITAL.NET] > Sendt: 11. februar 1999 03:25 > Til: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Emne: Re: Our Nationhood Defined/Bunch of thoughts > > >Dear Members of the Net: > > > >Do any of you know if the Golwalkar's works "Our nationhood defined" and > >"Bunch > >of thoughts" are available as electronic texts? > > > >Best regards, > > > >Lars Martin Fosse > ____________________ > > We or Our Nationhood Defined is a pamphlet and could be easily scanned to > convert electronically. Bunch of Thoughts is a large book and can't be done > so easily. > > Hard copies are available here in case someone wants to do it. > > -Partha Banerjee Dear Partha Banerjee, where exactly is "here"? Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Feb 11 08:44:09 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 09:44:09 +0100 Subject: SV: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046169.23782.1656408996994923340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan [SMTP:Palaniappa at AOL.COM] > Sendt: 11. februar 1999 06:45 > Til: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Emne: Re: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains > > In a message dated 2/10/99 4:02:33 PM Central Standard Time, erpet at COMP.CZ > writes: > > 0100,0100,0100Times New Roman > param>sounds. ArialIn > > Bael's transcription it would be written > 0100,0100,0100< > > FontFamily>Times New Romant'o and tuo resp. > > Am I the only one getting gibberish like this? Does anybody know why this is > happening? Thanks in advance. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan I get this kind of gibberish too sometimes, and not only from Indology. I think it has to do with the mail program used (the codes look like RTF codes, but may be something else). Ask the person sending the mails to check his/her mail program. Given the bewildering amount of options in modern high performance programs, this may not be so easy a task. I have some bitter experiences myself. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Feb 11 14:44:32 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 09:44:32 -0500 Subject: Our Nationhood Defined/Bunch of Thoughts Message-ID: <161227046194.23782.12008765446076877277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The 1939 ed. of We is available in microfiche format from the Library of Congress Photoduplication Service, Washington, DC 20540-4570: 90-905326: Golwalkar, Madhav Sadashiv. We, or, Our nationhood defined {microform} / Nagpur : Bharat Publications, 1939. 5, xxi, 77 p. ; 18 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: Microfiche 90/61767 (2 microfiches) They could also supply a complete printout if copyright laws allow, which they could tell you. The 1945 ed. appears from the pagination to be identical in the text but to have left out some sort of introduction etc.: 76-28156: Golwalkar, Madhav Sadashiv. We or Our nationhood defined 3d ed. {Nagpur, Bharat Prakashan} 1945. 77 p. 19 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: DS423 .G63 1945 Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From erpet at COMP.CZ Thu Feb 11 10:16:05 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 11:16:05 +0100 Subject: LANKAVATARA Sutra - its current research and oldest Manuscripts In-Reply-To: <199902041655.BAA21384@hongo.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227046174.23782.13702330407736840780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear KIM Jae-sung Thank you for the reply and the advice. Unfortunately I cannot read Japanese and I cannot find anybody working on the sutra from the Chinese speaking community. Do you know about any scholar in your department or University who currently reaserch the Lankavatara or anything related? I am also very interested in the Dharani of this sutra and how it found its way there. I wonder why this sutra seems to be abondoned and why MiaoFaLianHua - Lotus and DaBanNiePan - Mahaparinirvana Sutra in Japan and ShouLengYen - Surangama and HuaYen - Avatamsaka Sutra in Taiwan are preferred. What do you think? Do you know whether prof. Takasaki still works on this sutra and its origin? Are there no Indian Scholars interested in this scripture at all? Sincerely Petr Mares > > If you can read Japanese, Prof. Takasaki's work will be useful for you. > > Japanese translation of Chinese Version of Lankavatara Sutra. > > Ryogakyo, translated by Takasaki Jikido, > Tokyo,Daizo Shuppan, 1980.1, 436p ; 20cm. > ISBN: 4804354131 > > According to A Descriptive dictionary of Mahaayana Sutras(Tokyo, > Hokusindo, 1997, p.318), this is not a full translation. > > On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:13:53 +0100 $B!$ (BPetr Mares wrote > ; > > > I would also like to ask if anybody knows about any current > > research or translating of this sutra especially in the Chinese > > version. > > > ----------- > KIM Jae-sung (Jung Won) > Department of Indian Philosophy and Buddhist Studies > University of Tokyo > e-mail : jungwon at l.u-tokyo.ac.jp Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Thu Feb 11 10:23:27 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 11:23:27 +0100 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains - mail problem In-Reply-To: <01BE55A8.CD827C20.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227046177.23782.9069611766829047386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:44:09 +0100 Send reply to: Indology < From: Lars Martin Fosse < Subject: SV: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK 7F00,0000,0000> > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > > Fra: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan [SMTP:Palaniappa at AOL.COM] > > Sendt: 11. februar 1999 06:45 > > Til: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > Emne: Re: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains > > > > In a message dated 2/10/99 4:02:33 PM Central Standard Time, > > erpet at COMP.CZ writes: > > > > <<0100,0100,0100<<<Ti mes New Roman< > > param><sounds. > > > <<<Arial<<In Bael's > > > transcription it would be written > > <<0100,0100,0100<<< > > > FontFamily><Times New Roman<<t'o and tuo resp. > > > > Am I the only one getting gibberish like this? Does anybody know why > > this is happening? Thanks in advance. > > > > Regards > > S. Palaniappan > > I get this kind of gibberish too sometimes, and not only from Indology. I > think it has to do with the mail program used (the codes look like RTF > codes, but may be something else). Ask the person sending the mails to > check his/her mail program. Given the bewildering amount of options in > modern high performance programs, this may not be so easy a task. I have > some bitter experiences myself. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no Hello As I am the sender of the message I would like to ask if it came all unreadable or just the small part of it? Did someone else received it that way. I use Pegasus Mail and it had no similiar problem so far. Sincerely Petr Mares Below is the same again hopefuly right this time. Bitstream CyberbitTo: 0000,0000,8000INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: 0000,0000,8000Re: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Send reply to: 0000,0000,8000lengqie at gmx.net Date sent: 0000,0000,8000Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:00:57 +0100 7F00,0000,0000> >The whole chapter in Xi Yu Ji, where Xuan Zang describes the > >Malaya Mountain is considered later forgery by all Chinese > >commentators I have seen. > > In what period, would this have been added? Any idea? I have no XiYuJi handy but basically it just means the chapter has no relation to Xuan Zang as a person and his travel and it had to be made out of other sources. I do not think any of the current Chinese scholars believe XZ went as far as to South India. When I will have chance I will try to look the references about the forgery proves. 7F00,0000,0000> > >Buddhist texts clearly show that "potala" and > > >"potalaka" are simply alternate names of the same place in > > >potiyil/potiyam/potikai. > > > Chinese like to shorten Potalaka (Pu-ta-lo-chia) as > P'u-t'o. (cf. Chun-fang Yu, Prof. of Religion); Likewise, > In Tibet, Potala is a short form of Potalaka. Just for your interest, when I hear the name of this mountain shorten as above, the first what appear in mind in relation to Chinese Buddhism is the Buddhist island off the coast near Shanghai in Zhejiang called Pu Tuo Mountain (Pu3 Tuo2 Shan1) PU3 means universal - it is read in cantonese POU2 and in Korea it is read PO. In Bael's transcription it will be p'u. TUO2 also read DUO4 means rough terrain. It is part of the word Fuo2 Tuo2 (Chinese transcription of Buddha) (or part of the word AMiTuoFuo - Amitabha). It was used in Chinese Buddhist writing to transliterate the Sanskrit ta, da, and dha, Times New Romansounds. ArialIn Bael's transcription it would be written Times New Romant'o and tuo resp. ArialShan means hill. I think this island and not the mountain in South India is what will appear in the mind of any Chinese Buddhist when he will hear the name above. There are many many other small islands with name ending Shan- mountain around PuTuo Shan, it would be possible some of them is called Malaya Shan. By the way you can see how difficoult it is to guess the original word from the todays Chinese pronounciation of Ancient words, for example Fuo2Ta3 is mandarin transcription of stupa. TA3 is read in Cantonese TO4 and in Korean THA Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 5097 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 11 19:40:53 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 11:40:53 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046199.23782.15734837053130629033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> All India Roman script will boost interstate and international >> trade and communications. >Great idea. Will you do it, or shall I? >Oh, and while we're about it, let's make everyone speak English, >since other languages are just a nuisance. Dear Dominik, All India Roman (AIR) script will serve India best. May be I was not clear enough. I am not talking of Indic Languages, IA or Dravidian or Munda or Tibeto-Burman. The incoming ISO standard of transliteration of All Indian languages will be great. I wrote the original after browsing through a new book explaining why the Chinese script must go and NOT the language: Wm. C. Hannas, Asia's orthographic dilemma, Hawaii, 1997. Are there any reasons why India cannot make a switchover to AIR script? Yours Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 11 20:07:03 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 12:07:03 -0800 Subject: Nalanda University Message-ID: <161227046201.23782.2342698064912276517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---"J.B. Sharma" wrote: > As for citations, your question seeking them is unclear as to > citations for what ? Sorry for my tardiness and being non-candid. Citations of the `competing schools on ancient Indian history'. Of course, other than by Frawley and Kak! Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From peter.schalk at RELHIST.UU.SE Thu Feb 11 13:59:14 1999 From: peter.schalk at RELHIST.UU.SE (Peter Schalk) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 14:59:14 +0100 Subject: The only Buddhist epic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046189.23782.6588975582531046403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 8:06 pm +0100 03/02/1999, Robin Kornman wrote: >I'm translating a Tibetan Buddhist epic. What is maNimEkalai? For information about the Manimekalai see A Buddhist Woman's Path to Enlightenment. Proceedings of a Workshop on the Tamil Narrative Manimekalai, Uppsala University, May 25-29, 1995. Acta Universitatis Upsaliensis, Historia Religionum 13. ISSN 0439-2132, ISBN 91-554-3900-4. Some contributers: Paula Richman, D Dennis Hudson, Alavapillai Veluppillai, Ci Patmantan, David Shulman, Pirema Nantakumar, Anne Monius, Arankracan Vijayalatcumi, Iramaccantiran Nakacuvami. Peter Schalk, Uppsala University From partha at CAPITAL.NET Thu Feb 11 20:51:10 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 15:51:10 -0500 Subject: SV: Our Nationhood Defined/Bunch of thoughts In-Reply-To: <01BE55A8.CB27C340.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227046204.23782.561242873464712874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> We or Our Nationhood Defined is a pamphlet and could be easily scanned to >> convert electronically. Bunch of Thoughts is a large book and can't be done >> so easily. >> >> Hard copies are available here in case someone wants to do it. >> >> -Partha Banerjee > >Dear Partha Banerjee, > >where exactly is "here"? > >Lars Martin Fosse _____________________ I was refering to libraries in USA and personal collections. Also, Forum of Indian Leftists (FOIL), an organization in USA collected copies of "We or Our..." and "Bunch of...". Their website is www.foil.org where "We..." was supposed to be put up some time ago. I didn't check recently if it went up. On a related note, the first (and probably the only?) edition of "We or Our..." does have the word "We" in the title. This pamphlet was withdrawn by the Sangh Parivar when the racist language in "We..." faced massive criticism. Later, "We..." was replaced by a relatively moderate "Bunch of..." to be the Sangh Parivar "Bible". -Partha Banerjee From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Feb 11 13:28:27 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 18:58:27 +0530 Subject: Our Nationhood Defined/Bunch of thoughts In-Reply-To: <01BE5549.6B4DFFC0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227046184.23782.4855438716283447984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:01 PM 2/10/99 +0100, you wrote: >Dear Members of the Net: > >Do any of you know if the Golwalkar's works "Our nationhood defined" and "Bunch >of thoughts" are available as electronic texts? Ans: The first book, entitled 'We', is withdrawn by the author himself, long ago. It may be found still in libraries and with indiduals. For copies of the second, you may contact: Bharatiya Vichar Sadhana 309 Shaniwar Peth PUNE 411 030, India > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Norway >Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 >Email: lmfosse at online.no > From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 12 15:25:27 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 07:25:27 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration tion Message-ID: <161227046219.23782.5166478556437172630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---"Chandrasekaran, Periannan" wrote: > Let ecomonics wait... Why? Already, the part played by Indian produce in International trade is small and in decline. Only exception is export of computer programmers to emigrate. -SM _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 12 16:49:00 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 08:49:00 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046221.23782.15886919711026561427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 11 Feb 99, Christopher Fernandez wrote: CF> Are there any reasons why India cannot make a switchover CF> to AIR script? "Aditya, the ]-[indu Skeptic" wrote: <<< There have been several attempts made to adopt Roman script for Indian languages but none have succeeded so far partly because number of characters in Roman is not sufficient for Indian sounds and there could be no agreement as to which Roman character should correspond to a Devnagri or Urdu character. I have noticed on this list itself that there is no unanimity to represent the same Devnagri character with a unique Roman character. >>> Not really. A recent Indology posting is appended. Please do click the URLs and have a look at the uniformity in transliteration. For several decades, academic publications on India's Classical Languages employ a uniform transliteration. The problem referred by you is fairly recent. Indians usually employed as Computer professionals write in nonscholarly forums such as Newsgroups and mount their Websites depending on what they think is more apt. I suspect that their knowledge or training in Indic languages is superficial, they come mostly from Convent schools of Indian cities where little (if any) attention is given to Indian language study. The unanimity is an accomplished fact in the proposed ISO standard translit. scheme with or without diacriticals. "Aditya, the ]-[indu Skeptic" wrote: >The most important reason for failure of all such attempts is the >inertia.... I agree with you 100% Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Draft 7-bit Indic transliteration scheme ... I enjoyed looking at the transliteration scheme for all Indian languages. Grand achievement indeed! The main web page is at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm For vowels and gutturals, http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trd203c.htm For palatals-semivowels, http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trd203d.htm For sibilants, http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trd203e.htm For extensions and ancient forms, http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trd203f.htm A suggestion: Along with the eleven scripts considered, a column might be added for Grantha script of writing Sanskrit. ... -------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 12 17:13:22 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 09:13:22 -0800 Subject: Buddhist Philosophy Home Page Message-ID: <161227046224.23782.8211670773584909045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi all, I've developed a page on Buddhist Philosophy. It can be found at http://members.tripod.com/vpcnk/ Any suggestion towards improving the appearance as well as the substance of the site is welcome. Rgds, Nanda ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 12 17:42:11 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 09:42:11 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046235.23782.9635500907183777519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Found new evidence that Mt. Potalaka is not in Sriparvata. Pl. see p. 193, M.-T. Mallmann, Avalokitezvara, 1967. In this well-known study, Madame Mallmann has published two, 12th century Pala sculptures of Avalokitezvara seated on a grotto on Mt. Potalaka. One sculpture is inscribed with "zrI potalake lokanAtha" and the other Pala sculpture has the inscription "potalakaparvata lokezvara". ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 12 18:06:03 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 10:06:03 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046226.23782.12660892659325482799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Descriptions of Mt. Potalaka are found in Chinese texts in 420 AD and in 695 AD. We do not just depend on Hsuan Tsang's (?) description alone to locate Mt. Potalaka. A. C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhist art in China, 1959, Switzerland, p. 163: [Begin Quote] "The Six Dynasties translation of the Avatamsaka sUtra, done by Buddhabhadra between 418 and 420 or 421, introduces the two (Sudhana and Avalokitezvara -NG) thus (84): `Going continually on and on, he made his way to Mount Radiant, which he ascended. On it he looked everywhere for the Bodhisattva Avalokitezvara, whom he [finally] found on the western slope. Everywhere there were running springs and bathing pools; the woods grew dense, and the ground was softly mantled with vegtation. [The deity] sat cross-legged on a diamond treasure-throne, surrounded by innumerable adoring Bodhisattvas, preaching for them a sUtra of great compassion and pity...' Here Bodhisattva is called Kuan-shih-yin and the mountain is Kuang-ming Shan. In the T'ang translation of the same work, done between 695 and 699, both names are modernized, the first to Kuan-tzu-tsai and the second to 'Pu-ta-lo-chia' ie., Potalaka (85)" (84) Nanjio's no. 87, the Ta Fang-kuang Fo Hua-yen Ching: DaizOkyO, IX, no. 278, li, p. 718a (85) Nanjio's no. 88, the Ta Fang-kuang Fo Hua-yen Ching: DaizOkyO, X, no. 279, lxviii, p. 366c. [End of quote from Alexander Soper's classic study]. Mount Potalaka's description in avatamsaka translation is from 420 AD and 695 AD and these are independent of Hsuan Tsang records. ***************** A. C. Soper also mentions that these two earliest Avatamsaka translations in Chinese never say that Mt. Potalaka is in any island. Pl. observe that Buddhabhadra is much earlier, preceding Tsang by centuries. Not only S. Beal and Th. Watters, but later experts (on early Buddhist China) like G. Tucci, A. C. Soper and Chun-fang Yu quote the Hsuan Tsang material on Mt. Pu-ta-lo-chia in Malaya mountains. So, until Petr Mares shows some evidence that the Beal and Watters' translations are not from T'ang dynasty era, I will go with the quoted authors in taking that the Pu-ta-lo-chia passages are writings from the T'ang dynasty period. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 12 18:28:49 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 10:28:49 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046228.23782.1324093134068831249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganesan>> Chinese like to shorten Potalaka (Pu-ta-lo-chia) as Ganesan>> P'u-t'o. (cf. Chun-fang Yu, Prof. of Religion); Likewise, Ganesan>> In Tibet, Potala is a short form of Potalaka. Petr Mares writes: +Just for your interest, when I hear the name of this mountain shorten +as above, the first what appear in mind in relation to Chinese +Buddhism is the Buddhist island off the coast near Shanghai in +Zhejiang called Pu Tuo Mountain (Pu3 Tuo2 Shan1) +PU3 means universal - it is read in cantonese POU2 and in Korea +it is read PO. +In Bael's transcription it will be p'u. Of course, P'u t'o island, where pilgrims *today* flock to by millions off Ningpo is well-known. Chun-fang Yu, P'u-t'o shan, 1992, "The emergence of P'u-t'o as a national and international pilgrimage center for worship of Kuan-yin was a late and slow one, beginning in the tenth century, picking up momentum in the 16th, and reaching a peak only after the 18th. ... A number of cultic centers for Kuan-yin were established on the mainland. While there did not seem to be strong local cultic centers for ManjuzrI and Samantabhadra against which the Wu-t'ai and Omei had to compete, the case was far different for P'u-t'o." Please note that in T'ang dynasty period, there were "mainland" cult centers for Avalokitezvara. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 12 18:36:35 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 10:36:35 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046230.23782.1491770004783351471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Found evidence that Mt. Potalaka is not in Sriparvata. Pl. see p. 193, M.-T. Mallmann, Avalokitezvara, 1967. In this well-known study, Madame Mallmann has published two, 12th century Pala sculptures of Avalokitezvara seated on a grotto on Mt. Potalaka. One sculpture is inscribed with "zrI potalake lokanAtha" and the other Pala sculpture has the inscription, "potalakaparvata lokezvara" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Note that *Potalakaparvata Lokezvara*, NOT *zrIparvata Lokezvara*, is inscribed. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Fri Feb 12 20:46:17 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 10:46:17 -1000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990212184901.18256.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046237.23782.10444850983858384790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, U Hayavadana wrote: > At 11:40 11.02.99 PST, Christopher Fernandez wrote: > > > > Are there any reasons why India cannot make a switchover > > to AIR script? > > yes: it will make literacy easier to achieve, Perhaps you could explain why literacy is easier to achieve using the Roman script rather than any other script? You might also help us by explaining the discrepancies in the following tables of literacy rates, which I compiled from http://www.accu.or.jp/litdbase/stats/index.htm and http://www.cowan.edu.au/library/iorr/country/srilanka.htm Countries using Countries not using Roman script Roman script ---------------------------------------------- Indonesia (84%) Thailand (94%) Malaysia (84%) Sri Lanka (89%) States in India States in India using Roman script not using Roman script ---------------------------------------------- Nagaland (60 to 74%) Kerala (89.8%) Meghalaya (46 to 60%) Goa (above 88%) > and there are some people > who don't want that. the sangh parivar has already said that nobel [...deleted...] Is it possible that people are just fond of the traditional script of their own languages? Raja. From hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 12 18:49:01 1999 From: hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM (U Hayavadana) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 10:49:01 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046234.23782.14301527311612905473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:40 11.02.99 PST, Christopher Fernandez wrote: > All India Roman (AIR) script will serve India best.[...] > > Are there any reasons why India cannot make a switchover > to AIR script? yes: it will make literacy easier to achieve, and there are some people who don't want that. the sangh parivar has already said that nobel laureate amartya sen's proposal to boost literacy in india as a way to combat poverty is part of a christian conspiracy to convert the whole country to christianity and destroy hinduism... the old conversion bogey again. there are of course some vested interests in keeping people illiterate and underdeveloped, and the hindutva right is where they unite. h ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK Fri Feb 12 10:51:15 1999 From: aktor at COCO.IHI.KU.DK (Mikael Aktor) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 11:51:15 +0100 Subject: XI Skt Conf Message-ID: <161227046211.23782.15914898310101740467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, Do some of you know how to get in contact with the XI Sanskrit Conference in Turin? Their home page is down it seems, and they have not yet answered to registrations sent in December. Regards, Mikael Aktor, Dept of the Study of Religion, University of Aarhus, Denmark. From erpet at COMP.CZ Fri Feb 12 11:10:01 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 12:10:01 +0100 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Xuan Zang later chapters forgery - on what base? Message-ID: <161227046214.23782.4130211972775031689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan I have posted your request about the Xuan Zang's two chapters dating on the Mailing list of Early Mediaval China and got a response attched below my letter. As I am not specialiased in that period (I am interested in the preceeding dynasties of 5th century such as Liu Song and Bei Wei and translator called Gunabhadra) of the Chinese Culture I suppose it would be better for you to directly contact the specialist Dr. Alexander Meyer, whose address have been kindly sent by prof. Helwig Schmidt-Glintzer from the Herzog August Bibliothek. Once you get an answer, please let me know more about the forgery if you can. Attached response from the Early Mediaval China mailing list: Dear colleague, you might contact Dr. Alexander Meyer who is, as far as I know, still attached to the Sinologisches Seminar, Universitaet heidelberg, Akademiestr. 4-8 - D-69117 Heidelberg. Germany. Fax: 0049-6211 54 76 39 With best regards Helwig Schmidt-Glintzer e-mail: schmidt-gl at hab.de Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Fri Feb 12 23:18:17 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 13:18:17 -1000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990212212835.11723.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046242.23782.12915880276982430441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Christopher Fernandez wrote: > Heard that Persian(Urdu) is the *traditional* script > of Hindi. Depends whom you ask. For example, Samar Abbas has proved that India is basically an Arab country that drifted east by mistake... Another prolific poster has shown, with thousands of references, that almost all Indian culture "trickled down" from the waterfalls of Mt. Potiyil (sorry, Potalaka) in Tamil Nadu... Some Bengali poster might point out that the Universe itself started with the "Big Bong"... Yours ignorantly, Raja. PS: I personally think that the Hindi/Hindustani/Urdu language has been written in both Arabic and Devanagari scripts for hundreds of years. But I'm not an expert. Common sense isn't good enough. From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 12 21:28:35 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 13:28:35 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046240.23782.4925052729514774030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is it possible that people are >just fond of the traditional >script of their own languages? Heard that Persian(Urdu) is the *traditional* script of Hindi. Is Devnagari then considered an imposition in India anywhere? Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bahulkar at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Fri Feb 12 13:35:03 1999 From: bahulkar at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Shrikant Bahulkar) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 14:35:03 +0100 Subject: Search for article In-Reply-To: <01J7CBGC7UTU91VTXB@pcmail.LeidenUniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227046216.23782.17651678418743377675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, The article by T.R. Chitamani is available in one of the libraries in Pune, India, probably in the library of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Bhandarkar Road, Pune 411007, India. The librarian of that Institute will be able to send a copy of the said article. S.S.Bahulkar, Guest Professor, Freie University Berlin, Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschicte, K?nigin-Luise-Str.34A D-14195 Berlin. On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Kern Institute Library wrote: > Dear members, > We are looking for an article by T.R. Chintamani, 'Edition of fragments of > Paithinasi Dharmasutra' whcih was published in the Annals of Oriental Research > (Univ. of Madras), vol. IV (1939-40), i, 40ff. > If anybody knows where this journal is available or if there is another way > to get a copy of this article, please contact: > Arlo Griffiths > e-mail: A.Griffiths at stu.let.leidenuniv.nl > Thanking you, > > Dory Heilijgers > librarian of the Kern Institute > Leiden University > From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Sat Feb 13 01:37:49 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 15:37:49 -1000 Subject: rOman skript (was Re: Word splitting...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046252.23782.6503602463986796141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> another point... sins inglish iz rapidli bikaming thuh dIfawlt whirled langwayj, Y nawt trai tu rashanalaiz its speling? wunt that benifit moar pIpl than miyarli introdyUsing rOman skript fawr indiyan langwayjus? besaids speling, inglish unnesesarili has appar and lowar kEsas (Y is "Y" difarent fram "y"?) and kAnt distingwish bitwIn lawng and shot vawals. ill help yu if yu trai. yawrs benevOlentli, rAjA. ---------------------------------- Translation: Since English is rapidly becoming the default world language, why not try to rationalize its spelling? Wouldn't that benefit more people than merely introducing Roman script for Indian languages? Besides spelling, English unnecessarily has upper and lower cases (why is "Y" different from "y"?) and can't distinguish between long and short vowels. I'll help you if you try. Yours benevolently, Raja. From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 13 00:20:18 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 16:20:18 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046250.23782.1377615913522526979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >At 11:40 11.02.99 PST, Christopher Fernandez wrote: >> All India Roman (AIR) script will serve India best.[...] >> >> Are there any reasons why India cannot make a switchover >> to AIR script? To which Hayavadana says: >yes: it will make literacy easier to achieve, and there are some people who don't want that. the sangh parivar has already said that nobel laureate amartya sen's proposal to boost literacy in india as a way to combat poverty is part of a christian conspiracy to convert the whole country to christianity and destroy hinduism... the old conversion bogey again.>> AAAAAAAH! This is one sin for which the Hindu Right should not be given credit.. The Credit goes to the super-secular Congress Party. In the 40s, when this was proposed by Subhash Chandra Bose and propogated by others, the Congresswallahs protested, the more notable protesters( as my understanding goes) being Sampurnanand and SArdar Patel. The idea was quickly shelved. How exactly would working with the Roman script make literacy easier to achieve? Afterall, the Chinese script is far more complicated than most others but the Chinese rates of literacy( if they can be believed, of course) have been much higher than in India..... Regards, Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From erpet at COMP.CZ Fri Feb 12 18:38:22 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 19:38:22 +0100 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains - a specialist address In-Reply-To: <19990212180603.2599.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046231.23782.3928341463291305546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan I have posted your request about the Xuan Zang's two chapters dating on the Mailing list of Early Mediaval China and got a response attched below my letter. As I am not specialiased in that period and do not have much time to do some deep reasearch on Xuan Zang, who's writing is of no interest to me (I am interested in the preceeding dynasties of 5th century such as Liu Song and Bei Wei and translator called Gunabhadra), from my own experience I just remember to read in various Chinese articles about the forgery of the 10 - 12th chapter of XZ geography - XiYuJi. I suppose it would be much better and faster for you to directly contact the specialist on this topic Dr. Alexander Meyer of Sinologisches Seminar, Universitaet heidelberg,, whose address have been kindly sent to me by prof. Helwig Schmidt-Glintzer from the Herzog August Bibliothek. Once you get an answer, please let me know more about the forgery if you can. Attached response from the Early Mediaval China mailing list: Dear colleague, you might contact Dr. Alexander Meyer who is, as far as I know, still attached to the Sinologisches Seminar, Universitaet heidelberg, Akademiestr. 4-8 - D-69117 Heidelberg. Germany. Fax: 0049-6211 54 76 39 With best regards Helwig Schmidt-Glintzer e-mail: schmidt-gl at hab.de Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 13 04:19:02 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (harry spier) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 20:19:02 -0800 Subject: A simple question for Sanskritists Message-ID: <161227046257.23782.9969460541282643851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "patra" or "pattra" Monier-Williams on-line dictionary, Cappeller on-line dictionary , Bhagavad Gitas of Radhakrishnan and Winthrop Sargeant use "pattra" Practical Sanskrit-English Dictionary and the on-line dictionary site, Bhagavad Gita's of Warrier, Divine Life Society, Swami Prabhupada use "patra" Same definition in all cases: i.e. leaf, lotus etc. If "patra" is correct and "pattra" wrong, does the written edition of Monier-William's have the same misprint/error? Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From HOYSALA at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Feb 13 02:19:59 1999 From: HOYSALA at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 02:19:59 +0000 Subject: Next World Sanskrit Conference in Turin, Italy - Apr 3 - 8, 2000 Message-ID: <161227046254.23782.9417802081862077845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is the answer for the question by Prof Mikael Aktor: Sincerely, -Harihareswara =================== Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:04:22 -0400 From: Enrica Garzilli Subject: XI World Skt Conf Professor Oscar Botto (the President of the CESMEO) has just informed me that the next world Sanskrit Conference will be held in Turin (Italy) on April 3-8, 2000. For more info, please call CESMEO, +39+11+546 564 or fax +39+11+545 031 or write to CESMEO, Via Cavour 17 - 10123 Torino (Italia) -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ =========== This answer is for the question posed as below: ========== Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:51:15 +0100 From: Mikael Aktor Subject: XI Skt Conf Dear all, Do some of you know how to get in contact with the XI Sanskrit Conference in Turin? Their home page is down it seems, and they have not yet answered to registrations sent in December. Regards, Mikael Aktor, Dept of the Study of Religion, University of Aarhus, Denmark. ------------------------------ ***************************************************************** From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 13 15:04:24 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 07:04:24 -0800 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti story Message-ID: <161227046274.23782.8138743585364822493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A Classical Tamil text, maturaikkAJci, refers to the "Southern" aspect of dakSiNAmUrti for the first time. ten2n2avan2 peyariya tun2 aru tuppin2 tol mutu kaTavuL pin2n2ar mEya varai tAz aruvi poruppin poruna (maturaikkAJci 40-42) "warrior who posseses the mountain with cascading waterfalls where reside the followers of the ancient god with unapproachable prowess having the name, the Southern One". The mountain of the Pandyan king referred to here is "potiyil". This is made explicit in CilappatikAram. maRai mutu mutalvan2 pin2n2ar mEya poRai uyar potiyil poruppan2 (Cilappatikaaram 12.24.1-2) Translation:"the man possessing the "potiyil" mountain where the followers of the ancient first One of the vedas live". (cf. S. Palaniappan's posts on dakSiNAmUrti) This CT text, maturaikkAJci has a Buddhist connection also, acc. to the medieval commentator, NaccinArkkiniyar of BharadvAjagotra and Maturai. kAmar kavin2iya pEriLam peNTir pUvin2ar, pukaiyin2ar, tozuvan2ar paziccic ciRantupuRam kAkkum kaTavuT paLLiyum (maturaikkAJci 465-7) Translation:"Beautiful ladies of mid-age take care of the divine paLLi by decorating/worshipping with flowers, incense and make it noble/splendid". NaccinArkkiniyar (14th century AD) says that "kaTavuT paLLi" in this CT text line refers to a "Buddhist paLLi" (*pauttap paLLi*). Reference: u. vE. cAminAtayyar's pattuppaaTTu edition. *"Siva or alternately for Buddhists, Avalokitezvara inspires Agastya to write Tamil grammar*. This teaching takingplace in Mt. Potiyil is attested for millennia. The legend that "Siva or alternately Avalokita inspiring Panini is of South Indian origin also. Reference: my postings under "Where was Panini inspired?" in Indology. What a pleasant surprise to find that Art Basham was also thinking along the same lines: A. L. Basham (The Wonder That was India, p. 308) says, " A further form in which the god is worshipped is known as the "South-facing" (DakSiNAmUrti) (pl. LXVIII); in this aspect he is the universal teacher, depicted in an informal pose, with one foot on the ground and the other on the throne on which he sits, and with one hand raised in a gesture of explanation. This form of ziva perhaps owes something to Buddhist inspiration." Regards, N. Ganesan PS: The Wonder that is India! (was Re: The Wonder that was India). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Feb 13 12:07:30 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 07:07:30 -0500 Subject: A simple question for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: <19990213041903.14800.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046261.23782.486343678887966581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It should be noted that doublets like patra and pattra are allowed by Panini's optional rules of consonantal doubling, cf. Panini 8.4.47. This sort of doubling is purely a case phonological variation, and is not connected with etymology. In some cases, however, the occurrence of geminates is directly related to the etymology of the words, e.g. tattva, dattvaa etc. Thus, we have phonological variation for vartate/varttate, but v.rtti has to have two t-s. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, harry spier wrote: > "patra" or "pattra" > > Monier-Williams on-line dictionary, Cappeller on-line dictionary , > Bhagavad Gitas of Radhakrishnan and Winthrop Sargeant use "pattra" > > Practical Sanskrit-English Dictionary and the on-line dictionary site, > Bhagavad Gita's of Warrier, Divine Life Society, Swami Prabhupada use > "patra" > > Same definition in all cases: i.e. leaf, lotus etc. > > If "patra" is correct and "pattra" wrong, does the written edition of > Monier-William's have the same misprint/error? > > Harry Spier > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 13 16:31:32 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 08:31:32 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046277.23782.14445067352455707196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---"Narayan S. Raja" wrote: > Another prolific poster has shown, > with thousands of references, that > almost all Indian culture "trickled down" > from the waterfalls of Mt. Potiyil > (sorry, Potalaka) in Tamil Nadu... Hi Narayan, Do you have anything to disprove or counter what Drs. Ganesan and Palaniappan are showing from Classical Tamil and Sanskrit texts? that Potiyil/Potala/Malaya/dakSiNAdri played a crucial role in Indian culture atleast according to old Tamil as well as Sanskrit texts. First read the posts, then give a try dislodging their arguments! Regards, SM Note: I don't think large number of learned postings is a "sin". or a "problem" as you paint them to be. S/he cannot make others work as hard as them. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From pnorth98 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 13 18:12:53 1999 From: pnorth98 at HOTMAIL.COM (Peter North) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 10:12:53 -0800 Subject: Needed: History of fireworks in India. Message-ID: <161227046279.23782.9082869528711820841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, can anyone please email me a definitive text of the history of fireworks in India? The Britannica Encyc. mentions that before gunpowder was invented in Europe, Indian recipes for fireworks existed during the 9-10th centuries AD. These used Salt Petre a chemical which India exported (?). It seems that the Chinese had fireworks way before Indians did. Then portuguese/Arabs introduced gunpowder in India. Can anyone please help me collect the facts? Thanks Peter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 13 19:55:49 1999 From: hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM (U Hayavadana) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 11:55:49 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046287.23782.14324644558750031369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:46 12.02.99 -1000, you wrote: >On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, U Hayavadana wrote: > >> yes: it will make literacy easier to achieve, > >Perhaps you could explain why literacy >is easier to achieve using the Roman script >rather than any other script? because there are only 26 letters in the roman alphabet and there are no ligatures (samyuktakshara's). because printing technology in a linear script (one letter next to another) is much more simply implemented and we can use the technology that is already developed for western languages (like standardised computer and printing equipment), and so producing printed materials becomes easier. this is an important advantage if we want to spread literacy among many millions of people. and once a person has learned one written indian language, s/he can quickly learn a lot of others (become literate in other languages too) on the basis of the large number of sanskrit words in all the languages that can be immediately recognised because there is no script barrier. >You might also help us by explaining the >discrepancies in the following tables of >literacy rates, >[...deleted...] did i say that script is the only factor in successfully spreading literacy? no. h ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 13 19:59:11 1999 From: hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM (U Hayavadana) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 11:59:11 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046290.23782.673613999210699515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:20 12.02.99 PST, S Krishna wrote: >>At 11:40 11.02.99 PST, Christopher Fernandez wrote: >>> Are there any reasons why India cannot make a switchover >>> to AIR script? > >To which Hayavadana says: > >>yes: it will make literacy easier to achieve, and there are some people >who don't want that. the sangh parivar has already said that nobel >laureate amartya sen's proposal to boost literacy in india as a way to >combat poverty is part of a christian conspiracy to convert the whole >country to christianity and destroy hinduism... the old conversion bogey >again.>> > > AAAAAAAH! This is one sin for which the Hindu Right should not >be given credit.. The Credit goes to the super-secular Congress Party. >In the 40s, when this was proposed by Subhash Chandra Bose and >propogated by others, the Congresswallahs protested, the more notable >protesters( as my understanding goes) being Sampurnanand and SArdar >Patel. The idea was quickly shelved. the congress party has not said all that about amartya sen and the literacy-cum-conversion conspiracy. besides, we're living today, not in the 40s. better ask the congress what they think today, half a century later. > How exactly would working with the Roman script make literacy easier >to achieve? Afterall, the Chinese script is far more complicated than >most others but the Chinese rates of literacy( if they can be believed, >of course) have been much higher than in India..... see my response to a similar complaint from another list member. you can't reduce a complex issue to a single factor. h ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Sat Feb 13 12:49:24 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 12:49:24 +0000 Subject: A simple question for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046266.23782.2645382485611588759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > It should be noted that doublets like patra and pattra are allowed by > Panini's optional rules of consonantal doubling, cf. Panini 8.4.47. This > sort of doubling is purely a case phonological variation, and is not > connected with etymology. In some cases, however, the occurrence of > geminates is directly related to the etymology of the words, e.g. tattva, > dattvaa etc. Thus, we have phonological variation for vartate/varttate, > but v.rtti has to have two t-s. > Best, > Madhav Deshpande Actually, the double "t" in pattra *is* etymological: the word is formed from the root pat- "to fly" and the affix -tra which gives the sense "thing for doing that action with" -- hence zastra- "weapon for cutting", pAtra- "vessel for drinking" etc. Other comparable words are chattra- "canopy" from chad- "to cover", sattra- "sacrificial session" from sad- "to sit", and tottra- "elephant goad" from tud- "to strike". However, the sequence ttra is in practice indistinguishable from tra (in speech, I mean), and so the spellings in tra are generally commoner -- perhaps partly because ttra is slightly awkward to write in Nagari. In the Critical Edition of the Mahabharata, for instance, the tra spellings are favoured (without total consistency) for pattra, sattra and chattra; however, tottra is always spelt with ttra. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From erpet at COMP.CZ Sat Feb 13 12:10:57 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 13:10:57 +0100 Subject: Manuscripts of T670 from Beijing Dunhuang collection - How To? Message-ID: <161227046263.23782.310865477406826601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleague I am working on the critical edition of the Lankavatara. I have been told there is/are manuscripts of the Lankavatara in Beijing DunHuang collections. I am not able to find any reference to its number and interlibrary loan is not possible even for their catalogue. It may be contained in the DunHuang DaZang but in this country (Czech Republic) there is no way to get close to it. So far I managed to obtain the Stein S6909 and S5311 from British Library and Pelliot 2198 from Paris. Does anybody know how to find out if there are any other manuscripts of T670 anywhere (St. Petersburg. London, Beijing, Shanghai, Tokyo...? II am especially interested in Liu Song Gunabhadra translation (T670) in Beijing DunHuang collection but even when I personaly visited the Library in Beijing I did not manage to get any number or reference. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From roheko at MERKUR.NET Sat Feb 13 13:00:57 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 14:00:57 +0100 Subject: A simple question for Sanskritists Message-ID: <161227046269.23782.390228566590789800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Because pattra indeed is based on patati "fly" the writing pattra is wrong and not etymological correct. patra is correct. John Smith wrote: > On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > > It should be noted that doublets like patra and pattra are allowed by > > Panini's optional rules of consonantal doubling, cf. Panini 8.4.47. This > > sort of doubling is purely a case phonological variation, and is not > > connected with etymology. In some cases, however, the occurrence of > > geminates is directly related to the etymology of the words, e.g. tattva, > > dattvaa etc. Thus, we have phonological variation for vartate/varttate, > > but v.rtti has to have two t-s. > > Best, > > Madhav Deshpande > > Actually, the double "t" in pattra *is* etymological: the word is formed > from the root pat- "to fly" and the affix -tra which gives the sense > "thing for doing that action with" -- hence zastra- "weapon for cutting", > pAtra- "vessel for drinking" etc. Other comparable words are chattra- > "canopy" from chad- "to cover", sattra- "sacrificial session" from sad- > "to sit", and tottra- "elephant goad" from tud- "to strike". > > However, the sequence ttra is in practice indistinguishable from tra (in > speech, I mean), and so the spellings in tra are generally commoner -- > perhaps partly because ttra is slightly awkward to write in Nagari. In the > Critical Edition of the Mahabharata, for instance, the tra spellings are > favoured (without total consistency) for pattra, sattra and chattra; > however, tottra is always spelt with ttra. > > John Smith > > -- > Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk > Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) > Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 > Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Sat Feb 13 14:44:14 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 14:44:14 +0000 Subject: A simple question for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: <36C57789.A512D6C7@merkur.net> Message-ID: <161227046271.23782.4019560219834430703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Rolf Koch wrote: > Because pattra indeed is based on patati "fly" the writing pattra is > wrong and not etymological correct. > patra is correct. I wish you would read what I write. This is getting boring, but I have to repeat what I said: pattra derives from the root pat- and the affix -tra, and the "tt" spelling is therefore etymologically correct. However, patra is very commonly used in its place. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From janbrz at MICROTEC.NET Sat Feb 13 23:41:23 1999 From: janbrz at MICROTEC.NET (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 15:41:23 -0800 Subject: Abhidheya Message-ID: <161227046294.23782.6351071782634431419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venerable Indologists, Would any Vedantists out there be able to explain why the word _abhidheya_ is used as the second member of the tripartite division of Vedanta theology (sambandha and prayojana being the other two). In my understanding, abhidheya is equated with sAdhana, but the word abhidheya itself does not immediately convey this sense. Thanking you in advance, Jan Brzezinski From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Sun Feb 14 02:12:36 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 16:12:36 -1000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990213195549.9654.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046302.23782.17316291876585699703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, U Hayavadana wrote: > At 10:46 12.02.99 -1000, Raja wrote: > > > >Perhaps you could explain why literacy > >is easier to achieve using the Roman script > >rather than any other script? > > because there are only 26 letters in the roman alphabet No, there are 52 letters in the rOman AElfabet. Do you see any fisikal similarity between, say, "G" and "g"? Another point: wen thuh rOman AElfabet haes bIn mawdifaid to akomodaet awl indiyan fOnIms, it wil involv a lawt mOr thaen jast 52 leters. Luk aet a paej awf ViyetnAmIs taekst to sI wawt ai mIn. > and there are no > ligatures (samyuktakshara's). because printing technology in a linear > script (one letter next to another) is much more simply implemented and > we can use the technology that is already developed for western > languages (like standardised computer and printing equipment), and so > producing printed materials becomes easier. this is an important > advantage if we want to spread literacy among many millions of people. Gud nyUs: printing technology for Indian scripts already exists. People in India aren't illiterate because of inability to print books in Indian script. So this is not an issue. > and once a person has learned one written indian language, s/he can > quickly learn a lot of others (become literate in other languages too) > on the basis of the large number of sanskrit words in all the languages > that can be immediately recognised because there is no script barrier. This would be equally true if Indian languages standardized on any other common script. It is not a singular advantage of the rOman skript alone. > >You might also help us by explaining the > >discrepancies in the following tables of > >literacy rates, > >[...deleted...] > > did i say that script is the only factor in successfully spreading > literacy? no. It certainly sounded like it. Glad we now agree that it isn't. Regards, Raja. From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sun Feb 14 00:23:51 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 20:23:51 -0400 Subject: Consciousness-RAmAnuja Message-ID: <161227046297.23782.12548654910722169680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr.Gantsen: Here is at least one source where RAmAnuja rejects the view that all is consciousness, implying thereby that things do exist independently of consciousness. The source is ShribhAShya II:2:26-29. In II:2:26 RAmAnuja provides the YogAcAra view as the PUrvapakSha and in II:2:27-29 he refutes that view. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT Sat Feb 13 20:38:58 1999 From: b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT (Bruno Lo Turco) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 21:38:58 +0100 Subject: Khadira Message-ID: <161227046292.23782.5236805176825648671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would anybody know why Indra is sometimes called Khadira? Bruno Lo Turco Universita' di Roma 'La Sapienza' From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sun Feb 14 02:08:41 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 22:08:41 -0400 Subject: Upanishads, MahAyAna, Advaita Message-ID: <161227046299.23782.16849017514858217017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: "I don't think the MAdhyamika would fall in that category. The VaibhAshikas and SautrAntikas are the realists who insist on the existence of the outside world independent of consciousness. For the former only the underlying elements of existence (dharma) is real. The latter insist everything including the dharmas are momentary. The Yogacarins (VijnAnavAdins) deny the empirical world and insist that consciousness is all (sarvam buddhimayam jagat). The MAdhyamikas or the ShUnyavAdins deny ultimate reality to both the empirical world and the consciousness, which perceives it, since both exist only in relation to each other. They are as their name indicates - the Middle Way." I agree. (B.N.Hebbar) Also, I would like to add that even within the YogacArins, it is only Vasubandhu's "version" that is closest to Shankara's Advaita. The Svatantra-VijnAnavAda of Dinnaga, DharmakIrti etc. fall back on the old momentariness doctrine and it is this "version" of YogAcara that Shankara criticizes in his comm. on the BrahmasUtras. (B.N.Hebbar) Nanda Chandran wrote: "The Upanishads also decry all difference. So if these theories are taken to their logical conclusion, we have Advaitam, which insists BrAhman alone is real and all difference is unreal (mithyam)." I disagree. To say that the Upanishads teach AdvaitavAda uniformly is purely a subjective opinion. It all depends on the interpretation. As objective scholars we should not tow any "party line". The RAmAnujite and Madhvite interpretations of the Upanishads (to say the least) have shown us all too well that the Advaitic interpretation is by no means the only "valid official" interpretation. I am NOT saying that RAmAnuja or Madhva are right and Shankara is wrong. Only that, as true Indologists we MUST accept all reasonable interpretations as possibilities. Therefore, the Advaitic system as far as it can be traced, with some historical validity, begins with GauDapAda at best and NOT with the Upanishads or the other two prasthAnas. That is precisely what VedAntic scholasticism is all about. I, together with my panDit teacher, have attended several tarkasabhAs in India where the traditional panDit community from all three principal schools of VedAnta have extensively argued for several days on "goodies" like "Tat tvam asi", "Sarvam khalv idam brahma", "neha nana'sti kincana" etc. All I can say is that neither is the problem an easy one nor the solution. Each sticks to his school of thought with great resourcefulness and tenacity. However, all leave the sabhA in peace and friendship!!! This has happened over the centuries. And it is this that must be admired. Even the royalty in the ancient times who patronized these scholars politely (and rightly so, in my opinion) remained neutral when these tarkas took place in their courts. On such example was the reigning NAyak of Tanjore in the 1500s had Appayya DIkshita (Advaita), TAtAcArya (VishiShTAdvaita) and VijayIndra TIrtha (Dvaita) in his court. At the end of the debate the king (it is said) remarked: "how can I choose between the three Vedic fires?" In this light, Nanda Chandran's words: "So it may be that it's actually VijnAnavAda, which is prachanna VedAnta and not the other way around." cannot be accepted. By the way, it was BhAskara (the only major non-VaishNava commentator of the BrahmasUtras, besides Shankara) who said that Shankara was a pracchanna Bauddha. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sun Feb 14 02:26:35 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 22:26:35 -0400 Subject: The Idealist troika Message-ID: <161227046304.23782.8625266561798187701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists: Another set of reasons why the two schools of Indian MahAyAna Buddhism and Advaita VedAnta belong together are: 1. All three accept two levels of "truth". PAramArthika and VyAvahArika in Advaita VedAnta, pariniShpanna and parikalpita in YogAcAra Buddhism and paramArtha and samvRti in MAdhyamika Buddhism. 2. All three regard the world as NOT having absolute reality. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 13 20:20:53 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 01:20:53 +0500 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046285.23782.17012337774165018668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 13:18 12.02.99 -1000, you wrote: >On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Christopher Fernandez wrote: > >> Heard that Persian(Urdu) is the *traditional* script >> of Hindi. > > >Depends whom you ask. A Pakistani visiting professor of Urdu at Heidelberg mentioned in a lecture that the oldest mss. of Tulasi Dasa's Ramayana (in so-called "Old Hindi") are written in Urdu script. Has anybody looked into the matter sufficiently to confirm whether this is so? RZ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 14 14:04:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 06:04:29 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046319.23782.11573464605367946187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mt. Potiyil/Potiyam/Potikai has been equated with Himalaya in a CT text, puRanAnURu. puRanAnURu poem 2, considered one of the earliest in that anthology, praises a Chera king thus: "Even if milk becomes something sour, or the sun goes dark, or the Four Vedas swerve from the truth, may you shine on, with no loss, on and on with your unswerving ministers! May you be never shaken, like Mount Potiyam, like Himalaya with its golden peaks where long-eyed does sleep on slopes in the faint dawn near fawns with tiny heads under the glow of the three fires in which the Brahmins offer ghee according to their difficult rites." - puRam 2 Translation by Hart and Heifetz, (The entire puRam translation to appear from Columbia UP; George asked me to review). Note that Monier-Williams calls Malaya(=Potiyil/Potikai) as dakSiNAcala and DaNDin calls it dakSiNAdri. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sun Feb 14 14:51:26 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 06:51:26 -0800 Subject: Potalaka Message-ID: <161227046321.23782.14567903362142028954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Schalk, I went thru' the Indology archives carefully. The Postings equating Mt. Potalaka, the abode of Avalokitezvara, to Potiyil/Potikai/Potiyam in Malaya mountains never talk of the date of arrival of Buddhism in Tamil country. Or, am I missing something? Regards, Swaminathan Madhuresan > The discussion about Potalaka belongs to a wider context of dating the > establishment of Buddhism in Tamilakam. The Japanese Buddhist Shu Hikosaka > has through the Institute of Asian Studies in Cennai in 1989 launched a > kind of official doctrine according to which Buddhism is even pre-Asokan in > Tamilakam. The invasion by Bindusara into the South is made into an > invasion by Asoka himself who made a "Buddhist" invasion, that did not > introduce, but revived a pre-Buddhist tradition. Part of Hikosaka's > argumentation is that Potiyil was a Buddhist mountain. His main linguistic > argumentation has not yet been given by Kanecan, namely that potiyil is > allegedly derived from *bodhi-y-il, where "y" is a gliding sound, "il" is a > Tamil locative indicator and Tamil poti is allgedly derived from bodhi. > Potiyil is allegedly a place recalling the enlightenment. potalaka is > regarded as a "secondary derivation" of potiyil. On this base have been > piled speculations about the presence of Avalokitesvara on the mountain. A > climbing expedition on the top has been made guided by the Gandhavyuha and > Xuantsang to find traces of the cult of Avalokitesvara. I have tried to > show-evidently in vain -that all this is associative wishful thinking of > amateur historians. Vide P Schalk, "The Controversy about the Arrival of > Buddhism in Tamilakam", TEMENOS 30 (1994), pp. 197-232, where this very > popular and now dominating doctrine among academics in Tamilakam, and the > discussion about it, is documented from both sides.This doctrine's appeal > and seducing force is not intellectual. It is emotional because it makes > Buddhism very, very, very old in Tamilakam. > -Peter Schalk, Uppsala University _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 14 15:20:43 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 07:20:43 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046323.23782.14531427484890210860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 14 Feb 99, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > A Pakistani visiting professor of Urdu at Heidelberg mentioned in a > lecture that the oldest mss. of Tulasi Dasa's Ramayana (in so-called > "Old Hindi") are written in Urdu script. Has anybody looked into > the matter sufficiently to confirm whether this is so? A probable place to check: Christopher R. King, One language, two scripts: the Hindi movement in the nineteenth century North India, OUP, 1994 I am also interested: how widespread was DevanAgari script in say, Mughal times, British times, ...??? For example, in 1900 AD how many newspapers, magazines in Nagari script and how many in Urdu script? What is their approximate circulation numbers? Can Indologists explain please? May be Dr. Ruth L. Schmiidt or others. One thing for sure: Nagari script is NOT suitable to write Tamil. Reference: V. S. Rajam's works on TolkAppiyam. (UPenn). She has a paper in Int. J. Dravidian Linguistics about Tamil alphabets to denote consonants. Pulli/oRRu/mey is an unique invention by TolkAppiyar. I think this concept is absent in Nagari. Agree with Chris and Aditya that AIR will boost interstate and international communications and trade. AIR is simple and common to all the world. And, in India as well. After all, nowadays all middle to upper class Indians choose English medium anyways. With kind regards, N. Ganesan A note: There is Tamil net, a list, where about 20,000 people exchange e-mails. From 1996. The TSCII font developed by them is a major advance. Bi-lingual messages containing Tamil in Tamil script and English are a pleasure to read. Can someone tell us about the Tamilnet99 in Chennai cybercast all across the world? Any URLs please? Did the paper, "The Hindu" write about the cyberconf.? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From janbrz at MICROTEC.NET Sun Feb 14 16:24:04 1999 From: janbrz at MICROTEC.NET (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 08:24:04 -0800 Subject: Abhidheya In-Reply-To: <199902141242.RAA25826@giaspn01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227046316.23782.10098754319440715101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there no precedent, then, for the Gaudiya Vaisnava usage of this terminology in which the three correspond roughly as follows: sambandha = ontology; abhidheya = deontology; prayojana = teleology? Jan > Abhidheya (also called viZaya), when mentioned along with sambandha and > prayojana, means subject/topic of a systematic work; and the three, > sometimes with the fourth one, the adhikarin, are together called > 'anubandha-s' (qualifiers), and are considered to be binding on the author > of a work to be announced at the outset. I am not aware of any authentic > Vedanta work taking the word in question to mean sAdhana. > It is obvious that the concept of anubandha came into vogue to answer the > primary queries of an intelligent reader in behalf of a work: (1) for whom > is it intended; (2) what is its subject; (3) what is its > justification/inter-relation as a subject/topic; (4) what profit would a > reader derive from it. I have discussed these conventional anubandhas and > their traditional explanations in my article, 'A Rational Approach to > Vedanta', published in ABORI, 1996. > KSA > From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sun Feb 14 07:36:22 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 08:36:22 +0100 Subject: Consciousness-RAmAnuja Message-ID: <161227046309.23782.2450730778152611614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Hebbar, >Here is at least one source where RAmAnuja rejects the view >that all is consciousness, implying thereby that things do >exist independently of consciousness. Thank you very much. That is indeed an important reference, and I will study it closely. Regards, Martin Gansten From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 14 17:23:58 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 09:23:58 -0800 Subject: dakSiNAmUrti story Message-ID: <161227046329.23782.1635161333060906233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< The CT text, maturaikkAJci has a Buddhist connection also, acc. to the medieval commentator, NaccinArkkiniyar of BharadvAjagotra and Maturai. kAmar kavin2iya pEriLam peNTir pUvin2ar, pukaiyin2ar, tozuvan2ar paziccic ciRantupuRam kAkkum kaTavuT paLLiyum (maturaikkAJci 465-7) Translation:"Beautiful ladies of mid-age take care of the divine paLLi by decorating/worshipping with flowers, incense and make it noble/splendid". NaccinArkkiniyar (14th century AD) says that "kaTavuT paLLi" in this CT text line refers to a "Buddhist paLLi" (*pauttap paLLi*). Reference: u. vE. cAminAtayyar's pattuppaaTTu edition. *"Siva or alternately for Buddhists, Avalokitezvara inspires Agastya to write Tamil grammar*. This teaching takingplace in Mt. Potiyil is attested for millennia. The legend that "Siva or alternately Avalokita inspiring Panini is of South Indian origin also. Reference: my postings under "Where was Panini inspired?" in Indology. What a pleasant surprise to find that Art Basham was also thinking along the same lines: A. L. Basham (The Wonder That was India, p. 308) says, " A further form in which the god is worshipped is known as the "South-facing" (DakSiNAmUrti) (pl. LXVIII); in this aspect he is the universal teacher, depicted in an informal pose, with one foot on the ground and the other on the throne on which he sits, and with one hand raised in a gesture of explanation. This form of ziva perhaps owes something to Buddhist inspiration." >>> Two verses from tirumantiram, one of the oldest Tantric works in India, show Zaivite-Buddhist syncretism. cErntu iruntEn2 civa maGkai tan2 paGkan2aic cErntu iruntEn2 civan2 AvaTu taN tuRai cErntu iruntEn2 civa pOtiyin2 nIzalil cErntu iruntEn2 civan2 nAmaGkaL OtiyE (tiru. 140) JAn2at talaivitan2 nanti nakar pukku Un2am il on2patu kOTi yukam tan2uL JAn2ap pAl ATTi nAtan2ai arccittu yAn2um iruntEn2 nal pOtiyin2 kIzE (tiru. 142) In the first verse ziva is said to be staying in the shade of the "zivabodhi" tree. The commentators take it to be pipal tree but we cannot be certain if tirumUlar is not calling banyan tree by the term zivabodhi. But the use of the term bodhi indicates a buddhist precursor. In the second verse, bodhi is not qualified by any modifier. Here the author is said to have been under the same tree. Earlier texts show DakSiNAmUrti sitting under a banyan tree. Naccinarkkiniyar was thinking of a Buddhist PaLLi in MaturaikkAJci. Art Basham, who probably did not read Tamil at all, made an educated guess that DakSiNAmUrti's sitting posture and Avalokitezvara's sitting posture are related. Art was right! Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sun Feb 14 15:22:53 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 10:22:53 -0500 Subject: On 'patra/pattra' again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046325.23782.15034412484782607719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello folks, Any assertions that the word patra/pattra is derived from the root pat need to be addressed in more specific terms. This view is found in the commentary of K.siirasvaamin on the Amarakoza (patati pattram). Ultimately this etymology goes back to a generic U.naadisuutra : sarvadhaatubhya.h .s.tran, which allows the addition of the affix -tra after all roots. The fact that this is an U.naadisuutra is significant. It means that Panini himself treated these formations as underived (avyutpanna), and that the U.naadisuutra-traditions (often ascribed to Zaaka.taayana) offered these derivations. With such differences on the derivations of these words, the variation in doubling needs to be treated with less emphasis on assured etymology, but on larger patterns of Sanskrit pronunciation, reflected in optional rules of consonantal doubling, as well as in preferences for doubling seen in manuscripts coming from certain regions. Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, John Smith wrote: > On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Rolf Koch wrote: > > > Because pattra indeed is based on patati "fly" the writing pattra is > > wrong and not etymological correct. > > patra is correct. > > I wish you would read what I write. This is getting boring, but I have to > repeat what I said: pattra derives from the root pat- and the affix -tra, > and the "tt" spelling is therefore etymologically correct. However, patra > is very commonly used in its place. > > John Smith > > -- > Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk > Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) > Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 > Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html > From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sun Feb 14 17:08:41 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 12:08:41 -0500 Subject: On 'patra/pattra' again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046327.23782.10809901110611081097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If I may continue this discussion a little further, while I have some references in front of me, I would suggest that there is a circularity between spellings of Sanskrit words and their perceived etymologies. For example, consider the variants putra/puttra. It is obvious that the variant puttra allowed the folk-etymology put+tra, where -put- is said to be the name of a hell, from which the son protects the father (pun-naamno narakaad yasmaat traayate pitaram suta.h). On the other hand, the reading putra allowed the derivation pu+tra. Here the affix tra (.s.tran in the U.naadisuutra) is added to the root puu. But this requires the shortening of the vowel of the root, which is explicitly prescribed by the U.naadisuutra : puvo hrasvaz ca. Thus, we have two alternative etymologies, besides the fact that Panini considered this word as underived, giving us no specific clue as to whether it should be 'originally' putra or puttra. In my opinion, the phonological variation is in all likelihood the more primary fact, while the etymologies are simply rationalizations, after the fact. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Hello folks, > Any assertions that the word patra/pattra is derived from the root > pat need to be addressed in more specific terms. This view is found in > the commentary of K.siirasvaamin on the Amarakoza (patati pattram). > Ultimately this etymology goes back to a generic U.naadisuutra : > sarvadhaatubhya.h .s.tran, which allows the addition of the affix -tra > after all roots. The fact that this is an U.naadisuutra is significant. > It means that Panini himself treated these formations as underived > (avyutpanna), and that the U.naadisuutra-traditions (often ascribed to > Zaaka.taayana) offered these derivations. With such differences on the > derivations of these words, the variation in doubling needs to be treated > with less emphasis on assured etymology, but on larger patterns of > Sanskrit pronunciation, reflected in optional rules of consonantal > doubling, as well as in preferences for doubling seen in manuscripts > coming from certain regions. > Madhav Deshpande > > On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, John Smith wrote: > > > On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Rolf Koch wrote: > > > > > Because pattra indeed is based on patati "fly" the writing pattra is > > > wrong and not etymological correct. > > > patra is correct. > > > > I wish you would read what I write. This is getting boring, but I have to > > repeat what I said: pattra derives from the root pat- and the affix -tra, > > and the "tt" spelling is therefore etymologically correct. However, patra > > is very commonly used in its place. > > > > John Smith > > > > -- > > Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk > > Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) > > Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 > > Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html > > > From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 14 20:55:40 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 12:55:40 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046333.23782.5794627927460178016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> U Hayavadana now says: > >because there are only 26 letters in the roman alphabet and there are no ligatures (samyuktakshara's). because printing technology in a linear script (one letter next to another) is much more simply implemented and we can use the technology that is already developed for western languages (like standardised computer and printing equipment), and so producing printed materials becomes easier. this is an important advantage if we want to spread literacy among many millions of people. > There a no of languages even now using the Roman script which use ligatures( frequency is lower than that of Indian languages but they do appear there all the same). Among Indian langauges, the frequency of ligatures in Tamil is significantly lower than in other Indian languages but this has not made any differnece to the rapidity of text evolving etc..With all due respect, I believe that there is no significant connection between ligatures and production of printing material. As for your other question i.e. what would the Congress say now if the roman script were to adopted for writing Indian languages, they would more than welcome it because: 1. Roman is reminiscient of Rome, which is now very important in Indian politics as a result of Snamprogetti, Maino, Italian etc etc:-) 2. If (1) doesn't make the point explicitly, remember that Madam ( Sonia Gandhi) would feel comfortable using the roman script and that would be reason enough for everybody switching to the Roam script as far as the Congress in concerned. Krishna ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Feb 14 13:19:03 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 13:19:03 +0000 Subject: Needed: History of fireworks in India. In-Reply-To: <19990213181254.16015.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046314.23782.13612199095645576907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe that P. K. Gode wrote articles on this topic. See the various volumes of his collected writings. --- Dominik Wujastyk http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 14 22:36:58 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 14:36:58 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046335.23782.5948008376249103593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hayavadana wrote: >because there are only 26 letters in the roman alphabet and there >are no ligatures (samyuktakshara's). because printing technology in >a linear script (one letter next to another) is much more simply >implemented and we can use the technology that is already >developed for western languages (like standardised computer and >printing equipment), and so producing printed materials becomes >easier. This is true as far as Tamil orthography is concerned. That is the reason why Printing came first to Tamil among Indian languages; For printing the Bible, also a first among all Asian languages. So, also Typewriters - they came first to Tamil. In DTP, Prof. George Hart got a grant from Apple Computers and developed first fonts 25 years ago. Now, Tamil e-mail is a forerunner (http://www.tamil.net). OCR will first succeed in Tamil because there are NO cluster alphabets (samyuktaksharas) and it is a linear script (one letter follows another separately). Imposing Nagari script on Tamil will be a step backward. And, is not in tune with the times! Roman script with or without diacriticals is a definite advancement for all Indian languages. Regards N. Ganesan PS: With just 30 keys on a computer board (phonetic keyboard), entire Tamil writing can be encompassed. Simply, just 12 vowels and 18 consonants. That's all. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mpt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 14 23:05:05 1999 From: mpt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (M. Tandy) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 15:05:05 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046337.23782.5771100815128964273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, [ISO-8859-1] Aditya, the ]-[indu $kepti? wrote: > Urdu and HIndi are essentially the same languages grammatically except > that those who write in Urdu seem to prefer vocabulary derived from > Persian or Arabic even if vernacular local word is available. I must admit > that many Hindi writers have also made it a point to coin or use Sanskrit > word in their works but they have not become popularly accepted and > Tulsidas was not one of them. You're probably familiar with Enzo Turbiani's article "The Impact of Islam on TulsIdAs's Thought abd Poetical Work," in _Bhakti in Current Researck, 1979-1982_ (Monika Thiel-Horstmann, Ed). Turbiani discusses TulasI's use of Persian and Arabic terms, found especially in his KavitAvalI. Of course, TulasI employed Sanskrit too. Michael From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sun Feb 14 23:25:57 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 15:25:57 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046340.23782.11109910697298763003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > <<< > and once a person has learned one written indian language, s/he can > quickly learn a lot of others (become literate in other languages too) > on the basis of the large number of sanskrit words in all the languages > that can be immediately recognised because there is no script barrier. > >>> Hayavadana, you may not know. The above statement about sanskrit is a common myth propagated by high elites with vested interests. If you go to villages and listen, their Tamil contains Sanskrit terms approaching towards zero percent. Even in Malayalam, as you descend down the caste ladder, Sanskrit words drop off exponentially. It is also true that certain Tamil caste dialects, eg., Brahmins, are Sanskritized to a degree. Regards SM _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Feb 14 11:57:23 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 17:27:23 +0530 Subject: Abhidheya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046311.23782.1830568244731162588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:41 PM 2/13/99 -0800, you wrote: >Venerable Indologists, > >Would any Vedantists out there be able to explain why the word _abhidheya_ is used as the second member of the tripartite division of Vedanta theology (sambandha and prayojana being the other two). In my understanding, abhidheya is equated with sAdhana, but the word abhidheya itself does not immediately convey this sense. > >Thanking you in advance, > >Jan Brzezinski > Reply: Abhidheya (also called viZaya), when mentioned along with sambandha and prayojana, means subject/topic of a systematic work; and the three, sometimes with the fourth one, the adhikarin, are together called 'anubandha-s' (qualifiers), and are considered to be binding on the author of a work to be announced at the outset. I am not aware of any authentic Vedanta work taking the word in question to mean sAdhana. It is obvious that the concept of anubandha came into vogue to answer the primary queries of an intelligent reader in behalf of a work: (1) for whom is it intended; (2) what is its subject; (3) what is its justification/inter-relation as a subject/topic; (4) what profit would a reader derive from it. I have discussed these conventional anubandhas and their traditional explanations in my article, 'A Rational Approach to Vedanta', published in ABORI, 1996. KSA From partha at CAPITAL.NET Mon Feb 15 00:19:29 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 19:19:29 -0500 Subject: "Fire" cleared without cuts In-Reply-To: <36C61797.3837@erols.com> Message-ID: <161227046342.23782.17733963067468848849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> So, what was all this fiasco about? -Partha _______________ Deepa Mehta's 'Fire' cleared without cuts Director Deepa Mehta's film "Fire," which was referred back to the Censor Board for a review, has been cleared by the board without any cuts, Union Information and Broadcasting Minister Pramod Mahajan said in New Delhi on Saturday. The film had been sent back to the board following violent protests by the Shiv Sena against the depiction of a lesbian relationship in the film. (Source: Calcutta Online, www.calcuttatoday.com, February 15, 99) From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Mon Feb 15 03:52:44 1999 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 99 21:52:44 -0600 Subject: "Fire" cleared without cuts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046344.23782.15792372677427550410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Partha Banerjee wrote: > So, what was all this fiasco about? You tell us. You're the one who sent innumerable posts about an irritating little offensive homosexual film on the Indology list. Actually, don't tell me. Had enough of your whacko left-wing pseudo-liberal we-love-homosexuality-and-everything-else-that-offends-people posts for now. Jeez. Can we stick to Indology, please ? ~sumedh > > -Partha > _______________ > > Deepa Mehta's 'Fire' cleared without cuts > > Director Deepa Mehta's film "Fire," which was > referred back to the > Censor Board for a review, has been cleared by the > board without any > cuts, Union Information and Broadcasting Minister > Pramod Mahajan said > in New Delhi on Saturday. The film had been sent > back to the board > following violent protests by the Shiv Sena > against the depiction of > a lesbian relationship in the film. > > (Source: Calcutta Online, www.calcuttatoday.com, February 15, 99) > From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Feb 14 19:47:03 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 00:47:03 +0500 Subject: Idian Calendar-making Message-ID: <161227046331.23782.2926474920608095407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This book may be useful to you "A Critical Study of the Ancient Hindu Aronomy in the light and language of the modern." D.A.Arkasomayaji M.A.Ph.D Published by Karnatak Unversity, Dharwar, 1971. On Monday, January 25, 1999 Mani Varadarajan wrote >Can someone recommend an exhaustive work on Indian >calendar-making? I am particularly interested in >the interaction between lunar, solar, and sidereal >zodiac-based (nakshatra) calendars, and the relative >importance given to each in the various parts of India. > >In particular, I would like information on which >parts of India use which calendar for marking >daily events, and how their use of this calendar >was reconciled with the Vedic/brahmanic ritual >practices. > >Thanks, >Mani From hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 15 10:22:19 1999 From: hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM (U Hayavadana) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 02:22:19 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046349.23782.11521594857433769130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:12 13.02.99 -1000, Raja wrote: >No, there are 52 letters in the >rOman AElfabet. Do you see any >fisikal similarity between, say, >"G" and "g"? there is a lot of fisikal similarity between s and S, z and Z, y and Y, o and O, p and P, v and V, w and W, x and X, c and C, u and U... :-) but you don't even need the other 26 if you write like me! and no indian script has capitals either. >Another point: wen thuh rOman >AElfabet haes bIn mawdifaid to >akomodaet awl indiyan fOnIms, >it wil involv a lawt mOr thaen >jast 52 leters. Luk aet a paej >awf ViyetnAmIs taekst to sI wawt >ai mIn. look at the transliteration scheme from geneva used by academic writers over the past 100 years or so and you'll see that it isn't as complex as vietnamese. see for instance the csx+ fonts. you just add some 6 murdhanya's. long vowels you can just write double, like in finnish and some other languages. >> and there are no >> ligatures (samyuktakshara's). because printing technology in a linear >> script (one letter next to another) is much more simply implemented and >> we can use the technology that is already developed for western >> languages (like standardised computer and printing equipment), and so >> producing printed materials becomes easier. this is an important >> advantage if we want to spread literacy among many millions of people. > >Gud nyUs: printing technology for >Indian scripts already exists. >People in India aren't illiterate >because of inability to print books >in Indian script. So this is not >an issue. i hope you were thinking, like me, of the new possibilities for fast production of printed materials using computers, not of the already existing composing by hand with lead letters on a stick. in practice we see that a lot of computerised data entry in indian printing is specific for a particular font scheme, dtp software etc., and if you want to use the same material in another printer's shop, you may have to enter all the text all over again. even though there's iscii, it isn't followed by everybody. but in western languages, if you've entered text in some word processor, say, wordperfect, you can easily extract that text (and usually text formatting too) for use in m$ word etc., and you can use the material in dtp software. the practical advantages are enormous. you can save great amounts of time. and that helps in spreading literacy. h ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 15 14:34:14 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 06:34:14 -0800 Subject: Alleged "forgery" of Xuan Zang's quote Message-ID: <161227046367.23782.12063398446490329213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Recently, Mr. Petr Mares alleged few times in Indology list that the travel records of Xuan Zang (Hsuan Tsang) translated by S. Beal in 1884 and Th. Watters in 1905 are "forgeries". I used Beal and Watter's material as *one* among *several* arguments/points in my identification of Mt. Potiyil/Potikai in Malaya mountains as Mt. Potalaka, the abode of Avalokitezvara. Authorities on Early Buddhism of China and Mt. Potalaka think the opposite of Petr Mares. Attached is Prof. Chun-fang Yu's letter addressed to me. Prof. Yu has written many important articles on Mt. Potalaka, She has completed a book on Kuanyin cult in China as worshipped in P'u-t'uo, the Chinese Mt. Potalaka. She is Professor of Religious studies, Dept. of Religion, Rutgers university, USA. (In fact, she is the world's most renowned scholar on Mt. Potalaka. This was told to me by three reputed Sinologists. Names I do not want to reveal, unless there is a real need). Hope Mr. Petr Mares gives us more details and proofs for assertions that Xuan Zang's travel record portions are indeed "forgeries". With kind regards, N. Ganesan Prof. Chu-fang Yu, Rutgers University wrote to N. Ganesan: ************************************************************ Dear Dr. Ganesan, This is the first time that I read that the passage about Potalaka found in Hsuan-tsang's account was a forgery. Did your informant supply evidence for such assertion? Who said that this was a forgery? I am sending you the xerox of Tucci's article today. As you see, this was from an aricle he wrote entitled "A propo Avalokitesvara" found in a collected work. The latter is not "Minor Texts" as I indicated in my footnote of my article in the Pilgrims and Sacred Sites book. I checked the "Minor Texts" but did not find the reference. I also read the passage about Potalaka written by Chih-sheng in Goto's book. It simply says that Potalaka is a mountain facing the seashore in the south of India. It is the same statement made by Hsuan-tsang. Chih-sheng simply repeats it. The name of the monk should be spelled Chih-sheng. Best, Chun-fang Yu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * (732) 572-1478 (Telephone of Prof. Yu) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 15 14:47:47 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 06:47:47 -0800 Subject: Alleged "forgery" of Xuan Zang's quote Message-ID: <161227046369.23782.17621677979820432357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is my original letter to Prof. Chun-fang Yu of Rutgers university. Her reply was posted earlier in this thread. Regards N. Ganesan ---------------------------------------------------------- Dear Prof. Yu, Greetings from N. Ganesan I read the following passages in Xuan Zang's travel records published by T. Watters in 1905 and S. Beal in 1884. Petr Mares, Czech Republic, informed me: "The whole chapter in Xi Yu Ji, where Xuan Zang describes the Malaya mountain and Pu-ta-lo-chia (= Mt. Potalaka) is considered later forgery by Chinese commentators". Please inform me whether Petr's statement is correct. If so, then to what century/dynasty the following passages can be assigned? To T'ang dynasty period? Your answer is greatly appreciated. Many Thanks, N. Ganesan naga_ganesan at hotmail.com Th. Watters, On Yuan Chwang's travels in India, 1905 2.229 says: "In the south of the mo-lo-kuta (malakUTa) country near the sea was mo-lo-ya (malaya) mountain, lofty cliffs and ridges and deep valleys and gullies, on which were sandal, camphor and other trees. To the east of this was the pu-ta-lo-ka (potalaka) mountain with steep narrow paths over its cliffs and gorges in irregular confusion; on the top was a lake of clear water, whence issues a river which on its wayto the sea, flowed twenty times round the mountain. By the side of the lake was a deva place frequented by kuan-tzu-tsai-p'usa (avalokitezvara). Devotees, risking life, brave water and mountain to see the P'usa, but only a few succeed in reaching the shrine. To the people at the foot of the mountain who pray for a sight of the P'usa, he appears sometimes as a pAzupata tIrthika, or mahezvara, and consoles the suppliant with his answer." S. Beal, Si-yu-ki, Buddhist records of the Western world, 1884 2.233 says: "To the east of the Malaya mountains is Mount Po-ta-lo-kia (Potalaka). The passes of this mountain are very dangerous; its sides are precipitous, and its valleys rugged. On the top of the mountain is a lake; its waters are clear as mirror. From a hollow proceeds a great river which encircles the mountain as it flows down twenty times and then enters the southern sea, By the side of the lake is a rock-palace of the Devas. Here Avalokitezvara in coming and going takes his abode. Those who strongly desire to see this Bodhisattva do not regard their lives, but, crossing the water (fording the streams), climb the mountain forgetful of its difficulties and dangers; Of those who make the attempt there are very few who reach the summit. But even of those who dwell below the mountain, if they earnestly pray and beg to behold the god, sometimes he appears as Tsz'-tsai-t'ien (Izvara deva), sometimes under the form of a yogi (a Paazupata); he addresses them with benevolent words and then they obtain their wishes according to their desires." -------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 15 01:43:58 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 07:13:58 +0530 Subject: On 'patra/pattra' again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046354.23782.11077515999530967819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:08 PM 2/14/99 -0500, you wrote: >If I may continue this discussion a little further, while I have some >references in front of me, I would suggest that there is a circularity >between spellings of Sanskrit words and their perceived etymologies. For >example, consider the variants putra/puttra. It is obvious that the >variant puttra allowed the folk-etymology put+tra, where -put- is said to >be the name of a hell, from which the son protects the father (pun-naamno >narakaad yasmaat traayate pitaram suta.h). On the other hand, the reading >putra allowed the derivation pu+tra. Here the affix tra (.s.tran in the >U.naadisuutra) is added to the root puu. But this requires the shortening >of the vowel of the root, which is explicitly prescribed by the >U.naadisuutra : puvo hrasvaz ca. Thus, we have two alternative >etymologies, besides the fact that Panini considered this word as >underived, giving us no specific clue as to whether it should be >'originally' putra or puttra. In my opinion, the phonological variation >is in all likelihood the more primary fact, while the etymologies are >simply rationalizations, after the fact. > Best, > Madhav Deshpande > >On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > >> Hello folks, >> Any assertions that the word patra/pattra is derived from the root >> pat need to be addressed in more specific terms. This view is found in >> the commentary of K.siirasvaamin on the Amarakoza (patati pattram). >> Ultimately this etymology goes back to a generic U.naadisuutra : >> sarvadhaatubhya.h .s.tran, which allows the addition of the affix -tra >> after all roots. The fact that this is an U.naadisuutra is significant. >> It means that Panini himself treated these formations as underived >> (avyutpanna), and that the U.naadisuutra-traditions (often ascribed to >> Zaaka.taayana) offered these derivations. With such differences on the >> derivations of these words, the variation in doubling needs to be treated >> with less emphasis on assured etymology, but on larger patterns of >> Sanskrit pronunciation, reflected in optional rules of consonantal >> doubling, as well as in preferences for doubling seen in manuscripts >> coming from certain regions. >> Madhav Deshpande >> >> On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, John Smith wrote: >> >> > On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Rolf Koch wrote: >> > >> > > Because pattra indeed is based on patati "fly" the writing pattra is >> > > wrong and not etymological correct. >> > > patra is correct. >> > >> > I wish you would read what I write. This is getting boring, but I have to >> > repeat what I said: pattra derives from the root pat- and the affix -tra, >> > and the "tt" spelling is therefore etymologically correct. However, patra >> > is very commonly used in its place. >> > >> > John Smith >> > >> > -- >> > Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk >> > Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) >> > Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 >> > Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html >> > >> > Dear Madhav, Your discussion on 'patra/pattra' is thorough, methodical and delightful. Best wishes. KSA From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 15 01:54:21 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 07:24:21 +0530 Subject: Abhidheya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046352.23782.9760597739558897145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:24 AM 2/14/99 -0800, you wrote: >Is there no precedent, then, for the Gaudiya Vaisnava usage of this terminology in which the three correspond roughly as follows: sambandha = ontology; abhidheya = deontology; prayojana = teleology? > >Jan > > Reply: Not that I am aware of. These seem to be defined meanings restricted to a particular tradition. KSA > > > >> Abhidheya (also called viZaya), when mentioned along with sambandha and >> prayojana, means subject/topic of a systematic work; and the three, >> sometimes with the fourth one, the adhikarin, are together called >> 'anubandha-s' (qualifiers), and are considered to be binding on the author >> of a work to be announced at the outset. I am not aware of any authentic >> Vedanta work taking the word in question to mean sAdhana. >> It is obvious that the concept of anubandha came into vogue to answer the >> primary queries of an intelligent reader in behalf of a work: (1) for whom >> is it intended; (2) what is its subject; (3) what is its >> justification/inter-relation as a subject/topic; (4) what profit would a >> reader derive from it. I have discussed these conventional anubandhas and >> their traditional explanations in my article, 'A Rational Approach to >> Vedanta', published in ABORI, 1996. >> KSA >> > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 15 15:30:54 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 07:30:54 -0800 Subject: Alleged "forgery" of Xuan Zang's quote Message-ID: <161227046374.23782.5927687661199880602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I also heard it while I studied in China and the topic arrived at XuanZang. It is many years since I read these articles and talked to those people so I cannot tell you the names. There may be new facts I do not know about. [...] I sent you the name of the specialist in this area, so please contact him if you need and stop asking me about proofs. It is not my opinion, I have no opinions in this matter as it is absolutely irrelevant to me. I just thought you may be interested what some Chinese scholars think. >>> I just provided the "new facts" from a "Chinese scholar", a foremost authority working for decades on Mt. Potalaka. Will write to A. Meyer at Heidelberg that you kindly provided. The problem is I have to write 100 letters which are pending. Any e-mail address for A. Meyer? Like I explained before there may be reasons why some Chinese, surely not knowing anything on India, esp. the South, may think this passage is late because Hinduism (Saivism) figures in there; Avalokitezvara looks Izvaradeva! Also, all LATER Chinese paintings, folk tales put Mt. Potalaka in an island. But remember the two earliest GaNDavUha translations never say Mt. Potalaka is in an island, nor does the Xuan Zang passages provided by S. Beal and Th. Watters. These may be some reasons why some Chinese think Xuan Zang descriptions of Pu-ta-lo-chia Mount is "spurious". Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 15 16:39:42 1999 From: hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM (U Hayavadana) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 08:39:42 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046379.23782.5902790513643644426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:55 14.02.99 PST, S Krishna wrote: >U Hayavadana now says: > > As for your other question it wasn't a question. >i.e. what would the Congress say now if >the roman script were to adopted for writing Indian languages, >they would more than welcome it because: >1. Roman is reminiscient of Rome, which is now very important in >Indian politics as a result of Snamprogetti, Maino, Italian etc etc:-) >2. If (1) doesn't make the point explicitly, remember that Madam >( Sonia Gandhi) would feel comfortable using the roman script and >that would be reason enough for everybody switching to the Roam script >as far as the Congress in concerned. hey, you forgot the pope and the cia. h ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Feb 15 19:12:07 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 09:12:07 -1000 Subject: George Washington is Siva (was Re: Word splitting...) In-Reply-To: <19990213163132.21415.rocketmail@web305.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046383.23782.12093767343664085503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Note: I don't think large number of learned postings is a "sin". > or a "problem" as you paint them to be. S/he cannot Of course it isn't a sin or a problem. On the contrary, Dr. Ganesan's articles are always interesting. But I would find it very useful if Dr. Ganesan could summarize, in 250 words or less, the main idea(s) underlying the entire body of his voluminous research. This will enable me (and maybe many others) to understand his articles in their proper perspective. Summarizing complicated ideas in 250 words is a skill that everyone learns in graduate school (many conferences or journals require a 250-word abstract). So it can be done. Regards, Raja. PS: By torturing the data, one can make it confess anything. I can easily show that George Washington himself is none other than Siva in American garb. I'll post the details only if anyone's interested. From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 15 14:20:32 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 09:20:32 -0500 Subject: Script and religion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046362.23782.17330014445394595861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >A more recent extension of the same mixing of religion into languages is >the Sikh's everyday use of a script, Gurmukhi named so because it was >used in the writings of Sikh gurus only. Native panjabi speakers mostly used >Urdu script before creation of Pakistan and after that changed to using >Devnagri script. It is like adoption of Pali by Buddhists against the >backdrop of Sanskrit. The point of the last sentence here is completely obscure to me; the relationship between Pali and Sanskrit (which is far from clear historically, although this seems irrelevant here) has absolutely *nothing* to do with script usage... Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Mon Feb 15 09:43:12 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 09:43:12 +0000 Subject: On 'patra/pattra' again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046381.23782.8350369041400358440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > If I may continue this discussion a little further, while I have some > references in front of me, I would suggest that there is a circularity > between spellings of Sanskrit words and their perceived etymologies. For > example, consider the variants putra/puttra. It is obvious that the > variant puttra allowed the folk-etymology put+tra, where -put- is said to > be the name of a hell, from which the son protects the father (pun-naamno > narakaad yasmaat traayate pitaram suta.h). On the other hand, the reading > putra allowed the derivation pu+tra. Here the affix tra (.s.tran in the > U.naadisuutra) is added to the root puu. But this requires the shortening > of the vowel of the root, which is explicitly prescribed by the > U.naadisuutra : puvo hrasvaz ca. Thus, we have two alternative > etymologies, besides the fact that Panini considered this word as > underived, giving us no specific clue as to whether it should be > 'originally' putra or puttra. In my opinion, the phonological variation > is in all likelihood the more primary fact, while the etymologies are > simply rationalizations, after the fact. > Best, > Madhav Deshpande Could you make clear just how far you are going here, Madhav? I have no problems with your remarks on put(t)ra, but how many other -tra words are suspect in your view? Surely not astra, zastra, zAstra, pAtra, chat(t)ra, vaktra, etc., etc.? If not all cases, then which ones? And what is the basis for discriminating between them (so that pat(t)ra is suspect but -- presumably -- zastra is not)? John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 15 19:46:22 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 11:46:22 -0800 Subject: George Washington is Siva (was Re: Word splitting...) Message-ID: <161227046385.23782.11402861272264133914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---"Narayan S. Raja" wrote: > > > But I would find it very useful > if Dr. Ganesan could summarize, > in 250 words or less, the main idea(s) > underlying the entire body of his > voluminous research. > > This will enable me (and maybe > many others) to understand his > articles in their proper perspective. > > Summarizing complicated ideas > in 250 words is a skill that > everyone learns in graduate > school (many conferences or > journals require a 250-word > abstract). So it can be done. So far as I could read in Indology, Dr. N. Ganesan's thesis is "Mt. Potalaka is Mt. Potiyil/Potikai in Malaya mountains which is celebrated in Tamil and Sanskrit literatures for 2000 years". He has shown that the JAOS 1997 article, "Who inspired Panini?"'s placemenet of Potalaka in Northwest India does not have evidence. Regards SM PS: I believe Dr. N. Ganesan has a PhD and chaired some conference proceedungs, authored archival jl. articles. Waiting for your George Washington is Siva theory. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Mon Feb 15 13:30:54 1999 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Vielle Christophe) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 14:30:54 +0100 Subject: Vettam Mani In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046357.23782.7146651016909768813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Interested to know more about the textual sources (editions etc.) used by Vettam Mani when he wrote (firstly in Malayalam) his PurAnic Encyclopaedia, I would like to know 1? if he is still alive 2? in that case, what is his address (in Kerala) Dr. Christophe Vielle Institut orientaliste Coll?ge Erasme Place Blaise Pascal 1 B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve (Belgium) Tel. 32+10+47 49 54 From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Feb 15 20:24:28 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 15:24:28 -0500 Subject: On 'patra/pattra' again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046387.23782.8564472662607486084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Smith raises the following question: "Could you make clear just how far you are going here, Madhav? I have no problems with your remarks on put(t)ra, but how many other -tra words are suspect in your view? Surely not astra, zastra, zAstra, pAtra, chat(t)ra, vaktra, etc., etc.? If not all cases, then which ones? And what is the basis for discriminating between them (so that pat(t)ra is suspect but -- presumably -- zastra is not)?" My general response is that the orthography of Sanskrit words is independent of their etymology. While the orthography and pronunciation are guided by other factors, the etymology is often an after-the-fact device. By 'etymology' I do not mean to take away the prerogative of modern scholars to find appropriate etymologies. But our modern etymologies may not account for the ancient orthographic practices. As to the specific words ending in -tra, a glance at the U.naadisuutras shows what I mean. Panini's rules 3.2.181 (dha.h karma.ni .z.tran) - P.3.2.186 (kartari car.zidevatayo.h) prescribe -tra and -itra affixes after some specific verb roots. This gives us a list of -tra words for which we have Paninian etymologies. However, -tra has then been extended to all verb-roots by the U.naadisuutra 4.158 (sarvadhaatubhya.h .s.tran) with a number of subsequent rules prescribing specific additional changes in the case of specific verb roots. Thus, we can make a basic distinction between -tra words which Panini treated as derived, and those which he treated as underived, but were derived by others including the author of the U.naadisuutras. Among the words specifically derived by the U.naadisuutras, we have the following: bhraa.s.tra, gaantra, naantra, hantra, vai.s.tra, aa.s.tra, dautra, u.s.tra, khaatra, suutra, muutra, antra, citra, mitra, zastra, putra, strii, gotra, dhartra, vetra, paktra, vaktra, yantra, satra, hotra, yaatraa, maatraa, zrotra, bhastraa, gaatra, daatra, k.setra, bhaavitra, vaaditra, gaaritra, caaritra, azitra, vahitra, varutra, vadhitra, ka.titra, lotra, amitra. These formations are derived by specific U.naadisuutras. The following are listed as being derived by the general U.naadi- rule which adds -tra to any verb root. This list is from Mahaadeva Vedantin's U.naadikoza (ed. Kunjunni Raja, U of Madras, 1956, p. 100: vastra, astra, zaastra, chatra, paatra, patra, gantra, da.m.s.traa, raa.s.tra At least these words are traditionally treated as underived by Panini (avyutpanna), and they are treated as derived (vyutpanna) by the specific U.naadisuutras. It is the residue of such non-derived (avyutpanna) words which forces Panini to offer two complementary definitions for the nominal stem, arthavad adhaatur apratyaya.h praatipadikam (P.1.2.45) for the underived nouns, and k.rt-taddhita-samaasaaz ca (P.1.2.46) for the derived nouns. With such wide differences on whether a word is a derived word or not, and if it is derived, how it is derived, the traditional grounds for determining proper orthography of words on the basis of etymology are indeed very shaky. Best, Madhav Deshpande From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 15 23:35:53 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (harry spier) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 15:35:53 -0800 Subject: A not quite so simple question for Sanskritists Message-ID: <161227046389.23782.18176018825688134783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I ask this question with slight trepidation since a simple question I asked regarding where to split words in roman transliteration is still echoing down the list with at last count references to Tulsidas, visiting professors of Urdu, George Washington and Lord Shiva. Perhaps appropriate since yesterday was Shiva Ratri. So Happy Shiva Ratri everyone. Anyhow I seem to be on a roll with questions like this one and questions about the spelling of words (patra/pattra) being answered by the best academic Sanskrit minds. And thank you very much for those answers. So I'm not going to let this opportunity go by to ask a question I've always wondered about. Its a question about Panini and Sanskrit. What exactly is Panini's Grammar and What is he describing? In other words is he describing a language that at the time he wrote his treatise some community somewhere was using in its day to day discourse? Or was he describing a language situation completely like Latin in Europe in the Middle Ages (a language only used for higher discourse), or like Hebrew in Jewish communities in Eastern Europe/Russia at the end of the nineteenth century where the people spoke Hebrew for Religeous/Philosophical purposes, Yiddish among themselves and the local language when dealing with local authorities? Was he describing the way everybody used Sanskrit or was he declaring a certain diction, pronunciation, and usage of Sanskrit as proper Sanskrit? Are there manuscripts that are completely Sanskrit but differ from Panini's rules? And how did his grammar come to have such authority that it literally came to define what was Sanskrit? Thank You Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 15 10:49:13 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 15:49:13 +0500 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046347.23782.14593207366103057094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 22:28 13.02.99 -0500, you wrote: >On 14 Feb 99, Robert Zydenbos wrote: >> A Pakistani visiting professor of Urdu at Heidelberg mentioned in a >> lecture that the oldest mss. of Tulasi Dasa's Ramayana (in so-called "Old >> Hindi") are written in Urdu script. Has anybody looked into the matter >> sufficiently to confirm whether this is so? > >I may not hold an academic position in Indology but I have studied Hindi at >Sahityaratna level and have enough first hand knowledge about Tulsidas >and all his works and feel very frustrated that some one would even >mention such a possibility on the basis of a Pakistani professor. This is the >kind of ridiculous insinuations that have resulted in the allegations about the >lack of honesty and integrity on this list recently about Christians and >missionaries having ulterior motives. I hope you did not understand my query to contain any insinuations on my part. I merely quoted from a lecture on the relationship between Hindi and Urdu by Prof. Shibli (sorry, I do not recall his initials), visiting professor occupying the Iqbal Chair of Urdu Studies in the South Asia Inst. of the Univ. of Heidelberg in 1982. As is customary among scholars when dealing with colleagues who are officially sent from countries with which one is on speaking terms, I too gave him an impartial hearing. I remembered this remark because I found it so surprising. Since I am not a Hindi specialist, I did not know how to check, and moreover I found it insufficiently interesting to enquire until now. The matter of script was brought up on this list (note: not by me), and in good faith I enquired. If anybody feels upset by this, I am sorry that I cannot really say that I am sorry. :-) >I know that Tulsidas did not write any manuscript in Urdu script and 3 or 4 >original manuscripts in Tulsidas' own handwriting are still available. That seems to settle the matter, then. You only need say so. By the way, Amir Khusrau (who lived well before Tulsidas) wrote in different varieties of language called 'Hindavi' and even 'Hindi', and he used Urdu script. So please realise that my enquiry is not facetious. >The Pakistani scholar does not even seem to know the >difference between Ramayan and Ramcharitmanas. Sorry, it was not the Pakistani professor but me who called that work a 'Ramayana', since that says more about that work to non-Hindi-specialists (who are probably the vast majority on this list). It was also used as the basic text for the television version of the Ramayana. Prof. K.A. Kittur's _Bhaaratiiya saahitya samiik.se_ (published by the Text Book Directorate, Karnatak University, Dharwad, 1975) mentions (p. 77) that "tulasiiraamaaya.na" is an accepted alternative title for that work. Kittur is an Indian, and a university professor. Sorry that I believed him. :-) RZ Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at bigfoot.com From erpet at COMP.CZ Mon Feb 15 15:09:33 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 16:09:33 +0100 Subject: Alleged "forgery" of Xuan Zang's quote In-Reply-To: <19990215143415.23265.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046371.23782.13154857388498541106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan It is not my opinion neither allegation, I said only that I read it in various Chinese scholarly articles that Chapters 10-12 are of much later dates than the first ten - and I affirm again that I read it. I also heard it while I studied in China and the topic arrived at XuanZang. It is many years since I read these articles and talked to those people so I cannot tell you the names. There may be new facts I do not know about. When I will come across them again I certainly will let you know but I will not make any special research as I am working on other research that is interesting to me. I sent you the name of the specialist in this area, so please contact him if you need and stop asking me about proofs. It is not my opinion, I have no opinions in this matter as it is absolutely irrelevant to me. I just thought you may be interested what some Chinese scholars think. I am sorry to write anything in this matter so far. Please do not ask me again. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Mon Feb 15 16:00:09 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 17:00:09 +0100 Subject: Alleged "forgery" of Xuan Zang's quote In-Reply-To: <19990215153054.23038.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046376.23782.7399112099696135926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan > Will write to A. Meyer at Heidelberg that you kindly provided. > The problem is I have to write 100 letters which are pending. > Any e-mail address for A. Meyer? Unfortunately I have received his address from the Early Mediaval Chinese mailing list as a response to your question I posted there. I do not know who he is. > > Like I explained before there may be reasons why some Chinese, > surely not knowing anything on India, esp. the South, may > think this passage is late because Hinduism (Saivism) figures in > there; Avalokitezvara looks Izvaradeva! Also, all LATER Chinese > paintings, folk tales put Mt. Potalaka in an island. > > But remember the two earliest GaNDavUha translations never say > Mt. Potalaka is in an island, nor does the Xuan Zang passages > provided by S. Beal and Th. Watters. > > These may be some reasons why some Chinese think Xuan Zang > descriptions of Pu-ta-lo-chia Mount is "spurious". I do not think that is correct as the reasoning in these commentaries and articles I remember has been related to the last two chapters as a whole, not to any particular message in them. I think it was philological reasoning, but please do not quote me on anything here. When I will have chance to go to good Chinese library I can check the commentaries but I have no material at my hand. Actualy the whole geography was not written by Xuan Zang but by Bian4Ji1who wrote the geography from the information he collected from XuanZang and I think the parts 10-12 are written in diferrent style. Please do not quote me anywhere on anything related to thses topics. Sincerely Petr Mares > Regards > N. Ganesan > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Tue Feb 16 01:11:53 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 21:11:53 -0400 Subject: VijnAnavAda & Dvaita Message-ID: <161227046392.23782.3326101167752209293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Gantsen: I thought I might share this with you. One of Madhva's criticisms against the VijnAnavAda is: "if everything is jnAnamayam (consciousness) how can ignorance be possible at all?" asks Madhva. (A pretty powerful polemic I think) 1. As you know, most Indian systems do not make a distinction between consciousness and knowledge. 2. Also, all Indian systems regard anAdi avidyA (Primal Ignorance) as the root cause of the bondage of the individual in samsAra. Hope this is useful to you. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 16 11:15:22 1999 From: hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM (U Hayavadana) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 03:15:22 -0800 Subject: "Fire" cleared without cuts Message-ID: <161227046410.23782.992472714050722468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:52 14.02.99 -0600, sumedh wrote: >On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Partha Banerjee wrote: > >> So, what was all this fiasco about? > >You tell us. You're the one who sent innumerable posts about an >irritating little offensive homosexual film on the Indology list. and you got so upset about that 'little film' that you aped the shiv sena and demanded that all the roles should be renamed with muslim names, right? >Actually, don't tell me. Had enough of your whacko left-wing >pseudo-liberal we-love-homosexuality-and-everything-else-that-offends-people >posts for now. well, others have had enough of your offensive whacko kill-those-who-aren't-like-us fascist garbage. or can't you imagine your stuff is offensive? >Jeez. Can we stick to Indology, please ? what a poor loser you are, that you suddenly switch to "unpolitical" mode when the censor board declares your game lost. h ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 16 08:55:32 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 03:55:32 -0500 Subject: Reference check on line of Bhagavad Gita. Variation or errata Message-ID: <161227046396.23782.16444026537852311880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The sanskrit text of the Bhagavad Gita reproduced by J.A.B. Van Buitenen in "The Bhagavadgita in the Mahabharata" is reportedly taken from S.K. Belvalkar ed., bhiSmaparvan (1) (fascicule 15) (Poona:Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, 1947) pp. 74-203. In Van Buitenen's book the last line of verse 28 is (I'm transliterating in HK convention): dRSTvemAn svajanAn kRSNa yuyutsUn samavasthitAn || In all the other sources I've checked: Radhakrishnan, Winthrop Sargeant, Swami Tapasyananda, Divine Life Society, Gita Press, Warrier, Dr. Shakuntala Rao Sastri, they all have: dRSTvemaM svajanaM kRSNa yuyutsuM samupasthitam || Does anyone know if the line in Van Buitenen's book is an accurate rendition of the BORI critical edition? Is this a genuine variation or errata? Many thanks Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Feb 16 12:34:46 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 07:34:46 -0500 Subject: On 'patra/pattra' again! In-Reply-To: <199902161145.QAA26584@mbg.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227046414.23782.13183983269438398811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Zydenbos has brought up an important issue. Prosodically there is no difference in tatva and tattva, and this allows different readings, which further can allow different etymologies. Let me give a more ancient example: Rigveda 1.24.11c reads: tat(t)vaa yaami brahma.naa. Here, the pronunciation of the first segment tat(t)vaa was flexible enough to allow different analyses. The RV Padapatha takes it as two words: tat + tvaa. However, the same line is cited in Yaaska's Nirukta as an example of Var.nalopa 'deletion of a sound in derivation'. There is substantial debate about how exactly this line serves to illustrate this concept. But to shorten the comment, I will point out that the commentary of Skanda-Mahezvara on Nirukta says that the form is tatvaa, and that it is derived from the root -tan- after deleting the final 'n', as is done in the form matvaa derived from -man-. Whether this interpretation is ultimately correct is besides the point. The very fact that erudite commentators like Skanda-Mahezvara could read this segment as tatvaa, especially when the Padapatha reads tat+tvaa, suggests that the pronunciation of the segment was not clearly indicative of whether there were one or two 't's. A stop-geminate in pronunciation is produced in such a way that the contact of the articulator-organ is held twice as long without releasing the contact after the so-called first consonant. This phenomenon of unreleased first consonants (abhinidhaana) in consonantal clusters is discussed in detail in the Praatizaakhyas, Cf. Zaunakiiya- Caturaadhyaayikaa 1.2.2 (vyanjanavidhaara.nam abhinidhaana.h) and 1.2.4 (sparzasya sparze 'bhinidhaana.h) (my edition in HOS 52). Thus, in reality, it is not two distinct consonants, but the contact held longer. Only when one looks at this analytically, in contexts such as preparing the Padapatha or in explicitly writing down the oral phenomenon, that the representation has to make a choice of one or two consonant-signs. The prosodic value of the previous vowel does not change beyond if two consonants, rather than three follow it. The value of consonantal doubling in syllalbication has been discussed at length by Siddheshwar Varma in his classic work: Critical Studies in the Phonetic Observations of Indian Grammarians, pp. 61ff. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > At 12:08 14.02.99 -0500, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > >[...] In my opinion, the phonological variation > >is in all likelihood the more primary fact, while the etymologies are > >simply rationalizations, after the fact. > > This reminds me of words like 'tattva' and 'sattva', which in books printed > in Kannada script almost always become 'tatva' and 'satva'. Prosodically > there is no difference. Could this prosodical consideration have played a > role in the change in spelling from 'pattra' to 'patra'? > > RZ > From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 16 16:14:49 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 08:14:49 -0800 Subject: Advaitam and other schools of VedAnta Message-ID: <161227046419.23782.11089308588007800714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I agree. (B.N.Hebbar) Also, I would like to add that even >within the YogacArins, it is only Vasubandhu's "version" that >is closest to Shankara's Advaita. The Svatantra-VijnAnavAda of >Dinnaga, DharmakIrti etc. fall back on the old momentariness >doctrine and it is this "version" of YogAcara that Shankara >criticizes in his comm. on the BrahmasUtras. (B.N.Hebbar) I don?t agree J BhAvaviveka the Madhyamika, couldn?t resist from putting forward theories of his own, breaking the school?s tradition of no theory. So his school is called "svatantra" MAdhyamaka. ChandrakIrti and other Madhyamikas, who belongs to the prasangika branch, slam him for deviating from the traditional method of reductio ad absurdum. It?s actually from the svantantra MAdhyamaka, that the SautrAntika-YogAcAra school arose, of which the leading exponents are DignAga and DharmakIrti. The basic problems of the initial YogAcAras are : 1. the theory that the whole world is an mental creation and 2. the lack of distinction between the psychological and absolute consciousness Sarvam buddhimayam jagat - the whole world is ideal - is found in the source of the YogAcAra views - the LankAvatAra SUtrA itself. Asanga and VAubandhu, too take the same line. There?re obvious problems with this theory, which ShankarAcharya attacks. DignAga and DharmakIrti, the former a pupil of VAubandhu himself and the latter a pupil of the former, to over come the weakness of the doctrine of the whole world being ideal - take refuge in the SautrAntika doctrine - which endorses the existence of the world based on the inference that the world must exist, because we perceive it - the balance is again loaded on the side of the mental faculties. Ofcourse, ShankarAcharya is able to find chinks in this Bauddha armour too! >I disagree. To say that the Upanishads teach AdvaitavAda >uniformly is purely a subjective opinion. The Upanishads do not uniformly expound one theory. There seem to be contradictions between one Upanishad to another. This in my opinion, just reflects the super sensible nature of the object of discussion - which the shruti again endorses as beyond the intellect and the senses. It?s true that there?re some Upanishads which hardly seem to endorse Advaitam. But again if one were to look at them collectively, Advaitam represents the most consistent view. Apart from this we?ve to remember that Shankara lived at a time when Buddhism reigned supreme. The nAstikas were tearing apart theories of the astikas for logically inconsistency. So apart from the collective view, Advaitam also represents the best possible logical theory for AtmavAda. Ofcourse, we?ve RAmAnuja and VedAntadesika, two great philosophers, criticizing Advaitam. But to find faults with a theory, doesn?t in any way mean that one?s own theory is right. Logically, the simplest view is the easiest to defend. Advaitam, taking its stand on Brahman alone being real, is on better footing than other schools of VedAnta, who dig themselves into deeper pits by also endorsing the reality of the world. If one can find thousand faults with Advaitam, one can find ten times the number of faults with other theories. The other schools of VedAnta can consider themselves lucky that they didn?t exist at the time of VAsubandhu and NAgArjuna or DignAga and DharmakIrti! >Each sticks to his school of thought with >great resourcefulness and tenacity. However, all leave the sabhA >in peace and friendship!!! I?m glad that such amity still exists, though I?ve heard things quite to the contrary. Anyway I don?t recognize any such warmth in accusations like "prachanna bauddha" or was it "prachanna mahAyAnika"! OK, with respect to the debating you witnessed, let me ask you what the basis of the debate was? Was it based on logic and reason or was it based on the shruti, interpreted with logic and reason? If it was on the former, as I said before, all other schools will be in trouble before Advaitam. If it?s on the latter, Advaitam can hold itself as well as the rest, if not better. But if both criterias were used - that?s the facts are supported by empirical experience as well as the shruti - Advaitam will be on a better footing than the rest. But again, Advaitam doesn?t have any problem with the other shools of VedAnta. There?re all, right in the relative sense. But only in absolute terms are they falling short. You say you can?t accept that VijnAnavAda is prachanna VedAnta - but fail to give any reasons. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 16 16:24:08 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 08:24:08 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046421.23782.18161111185167387841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DVN Sarma writes: >This shows that there is a strong probability that Taranatha's >Potala is somewhere in the vicinity of Dhanyakataka. (The >submerging of the path under the sea cannot be explained.) ... Taranatha is very late. Seventeenth century AD. Even though earlier Chinese texts put Mt. Potalaka in the Malaya mountains, post tenth-century tradition puts the Mountain Potalaka in an island. Hence the sea voyage. BTW, you were identifying Potala as Tirupati(tiruvEngaDam) in Indology before I started my Potalaka posts. What happened to that id.? DVN Sarma writes: >The basic requrement for Potala is that it should be primarily >a Buddhist center and for its bonafides it should not >invoke proxies like Siva and Daksinamurti. Thanks for the summary of your views. But, it cannot be supported with available evidence from pre-10th century material in Tamil, Sanskrit and Chinese. Few points: 1) Pl. look at the Avalokitezvara sitting cross-legged in the Mt. Potalaka in BorobudUr GaNDavyUha panels (800 AD). He resembles 'Siva very much. He wears matted hair like 'Siva, holds rosary beads and a kamaNdalam. Exactly like a great yogin. ('Siva mahadeva). 2) Xuan Zang (or, may be his disciple (cf. Petr Mares' posts)) in 640 AD and Chih-Sheng, Buddhist monk (688-740 AD) who lived in the T'ang dynasty give descriptions of Mt Potalaka in Malaya mountains where the Bodhisattva appears as Avalokitezvara or 'Siva depending on the religious affliation of the devotees. 3) There is a very long tradition in Tamil telling that 'Siva taught Tamil grammar to Agastya, the Malayamuni. In Sanskrit, there is a long traditon that 'Siva taught grammar to Panini (Who inspired Panini, JAOS, 1997). Note that the Sanskrit texts narrating this myth are from South India (eg., Haradatta's padamaJjari, Nandikezvara kArikA, ..) Tamil tradition also has Avalikitezvara teaching Tamil to Agastya. Southern Sanskrit tradition talks of Avalokitezvara inspiring Panini also. These Saivaite and Buddhist claims point to DakSiNAmUrti, the teacher par excellence, under the banyan tree. Classical Tamil texts have this motif. MahabhArata XII talking of "Siva as the Supreme teacher is ONLY from Southern recension (cf. de Jong). Note also that dakSiNAmUrti sculpture is only found in Tamilakam (Of course, there are Nolamba dakSiNAmUrtis in Dharmapuri situated in Tamil Nadu). 4)Why would the following authorities say the following if there is no connection between 'Siva and Avalokitezvara: A. C. Soper writes 'Siva has a Buddhist alter ego Avalokitzevara. Alexander C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhist art in China, Artibus Asiae publishers, 1959 p.59: "; not, I think, by abrupt transition to a rival cult, but because 'Siva had probably been accepted for the time being in the Cambodian Buddhist pantheon as a Bodhisattva, with attributes similar in many ways to those of his Buddhist *alter ego* Avalokitezvara." A. L. Basham (The Wonder That was India, p. 308) says, " A further form in which the god is worshipped is known as the "South-facing" (DakSiNAmUrti) (pl. LXVIII); in this aspect he is the universal teacher, depicted in an informal pose, with one foot on the ground and the other on the throne on which he sits, and with one hand raised in a gesture of explanation. This form of ziva perhaps owes something to Buddhist inspiration." Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mgansten at SBBS.SE Tue Feb 16 07:53:18 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 08:53:18 +0100 Subject: VijnAnavAda & Dvaita Message-ID: <161227046394.23782.9456270783433409459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Hebbar, >"if everything is jnAnamayam (consciousness) how can ignorance >be possible at all?" asks Madhva. (A pretty powerful polemic I >think) As you say, this argument is based on the equation of jnaana in the sense of 'consciousness' or 'cognition' with the sense of 'knowledge', i.e. 'correct cognition'. I wonder what Madhva made of texts such as the Vishnupurana, which speaks of bhraanti-jnaana 'erroneous cognition'? And did he agree with Ramanuja's thesis 'yathaartham sarvavijnaanam'? Regards, Martin Gansten From erpet at COMP.CZ Tue Feb 16 09:36:21 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 10:36:21 +0100 Subject: sva-citta-d.r/Sya-mAyA-viSaya-anudar/Sana Message-ID: <161227046399.23782.6409758167063332039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues sva-citta-d.r/Sya-mAtratA sva-citta-d.r/Sya-mAtra sva-citta-d.r/Sya-vij~NAna-viSaya sva-citta-d.r/Sya-mAyA-viSaya-anudar/Sana sva-citta-d.r/Sya-vikalpa sva-citta-d.r/Sya-vikalpa-drSTi sva-citta-d.r/Sya-gocara sva-citta-d.r/Sya-viSaya-bhAva-abhAva-parij~Nana sva-citta-d.r/Sya-gati sva-citta-vividha-viveka-vihAra I am very interested whether anybody of you came accross these compounds and in what traditions. I am working on the text where this is the basic theme, but I have not found this theme in any early text of the Buddhist tradition (at least not for their Chinese counterparts as I am ignorant about Sanskrit) where this text apparently belong as far as good deal of its terminology is concerned. 2. Can anybody suggest interpretation of these compounds, and let me know whether there is a definitive translation for them or if they suggest many interpretations? Sincerely PS I am using the transcription of TITUS-ASCII, but I would I would like to transcribe it to PSZ, KH, FV or whatever else. I cannot realize what transcription system is used in this list due to my Sanskrit ignorance. Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Tue Feb 16 10:31:27 1999 From: Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 11:31:27 +0100 Subject: Reference check on line of Bhagavad Gita. Variation or errata In-Reply-To: <19990216085532.7373.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046404.23782.7440582318436771511.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 16 Feb 99, at 3:55, Harry Spier wrote: > In Van Buitenen's book the last line of verse 28 is (I'm > transliterating in HK convention): > dRSTvemAn svajanAn kRSNa yuyutsUn samavasthitAn || > [...] > Does anyone know if the line in Van Buitenen's book is an accurate > rendition of the BORI critical edition? Is this a genuine variation > or errata? The line is identical with the wording adopted by Bevalkar in his critical edition of 1947. In his critical apparatus he gives the following variant readings: dRSTvemAn : dRSTvemaM : dRSTvaitaan : dRSTvA saM- (sic) : dRSTvaivaM; svajanAn : sujanAn : svajanaM; yuyutsUn : yuyutsuM : yuddhAya; samavasthitAn : samupasthitaM : samavasthitaM : samupasthitaan. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 16 19:39:13 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 11:39:13 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046426.23782.8871295362317596428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: >> BTW, you (ie., DVN Sarma) were identifying Potala as >> Tirupati(tiruvEngaDam) in Indology before I started my >> Potalaka posts. What happened to that id.? DVN Sarma replied: >I never did that. I was identifying it with Nagarjunakonda only. Quoted from my memory. Now, checked in Indology archives. On Friday, 28 Nov 1997 17:22:12, Sri DVN Sarma wrote in Indology recording the Buddhist/"Saivaite connections to Tirupati. See below. I thought Geofrrey's question and DVN's answers to it point to DVN's thinking that Tirupati is Potalaka. Clearly, when G. Samuel was talking of Mt. Potalaka, the Buddhist site as Tirupati, DVN Sarma was emphasizing Tirupati's Saivaite connections. Now of course, DVN is saying there should be no 'Saivaite dakSiNAmUrti connection to Mt. Potalaka. Looks like a major contradiction. Regards N. Ganesan At 01:25 PM 11/28/97 GMT, Geoffrey Samuel wrote: >In one of the Crystal Mirror volumes on Indian Buddhist history (ed >Tarthang Tulku), Potalaka is identified with Tirupati (i.e. the >famous Venkatesvara temple and pilgrimage site) in southern A.P. DVN Sarma replied on 11/28/97: << The mountain on which the sacred shrine is situated is called Tirumala = Sri mala = auspicious mountain. There are seven hills which the pilgrims used to climb by strenuous path. ... Contrary to the Hindu custom of keeping a zikha when shaving the head, at Tirupati pilgrims shave their heads completely like buddhist bhikkus. Very few orthodox brahmins do this showing that they do not approve of it but are just allowing the custom to go on. The name VEnkaTEzwara reminds of MahEzwara in the anecdote of GandavyUha. [...] The prolific composer of devotional songs `sankIrtanAs' on the deity annamAchArya of the 15th century says that the deity is worshipped as viSNu, parabrahma, ziva, Adibhairava and Zakti. This means that people did not accept rAmAnujA's identification of the idol as that of viSNu even after hundreds of years. The idol is said to be at the center of the sanctum sanctorum. This is a zaiva custom. The deity is at the back of the sanctum sanctorum in vaiSNava temples. - DVNS --------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 16 19:49:14 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 11:49:14 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046428.23782.1163596457502000589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: >> BTW, you (ie., DVN Sarma) were identifying Potala as >> Tirupati(tiruvEngaDam) in Indology before I started my >> Potalaka posts. What happened to that id.? DVN Sarma replied: >I never did that. I was identifying it with Nagarjunakonda only. Quoted from my memory. Now, checked in Indology archives. On Friday, 28 Nov 1997 17:22:12, Sri DVN Sarma wrote in Indology recording the Buddhist connections to Tirupati. See below. I thought Geofrrey's question and DVN's answers to it point to DVN's thinking that Tirupati is Potalaka. Clearly, when G. Samuel was talking of Potalaka, the Buddhist site as Tirupati, DVN Sarma was emphasizing Tirupati's Saivaite connections. See below. Now of course, DVN is saying there should be no 'Saivaite connection to Mt. Potalaka. Looks like a major contradiction. Regards N. Ganesan At 01:25 PM 11/28/97 GMT, Geoffrey Samuel wrote: >In one of the Crystal Mirror volumes on Indian Buddhist history (ed >Tarthang Tulku), Potalaka is identified with Tirupati (i.e. the >famous Venkatesvara temple and pilgrimage site) in southern A.P. DVN Sarma replied: << The mountain on which the sacred shrine is situated is called Tirumala = Sri mala = auspicious mountain. There are seven hills which the pilgrims used to climb by strenuous path. ... Contrary to the Hindu custom of keeping a zikha when shaving the head, at Tirupati pilgrims shave their heads completely like buddhist bhikkus. Very few orthodox brahmins do this showing that they do not approve of it but are just allowing the custom to go on. The name VEnkaTEzwara reminds of MahEzwara in the anecdote of GandavyUha. [...] The prolific composer of devotional songs `sankIrtanAs' on the deity annamAchArya of the 15th century says that the deity is worshipped as viSNu, parabrahma, ziva, Adibhairava and Zakti. This means that people did not accept rAmAnujA's identification of the idol as that of viSNu even after hundreds of years. The idol is said to be at the center of the sanctum sanctorum. This is a zaiva custom. The deity is at the back of the sanctum sanctorum in vaiSNava temples. - DVNS --------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 16 20:11:57 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 12:11:57 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046430.23782.11592216040023121084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reading the postings by Drs. Ganesan and Palaniappan, the argument that dakSiNAmUrti and Avalokitezvara are NOT to be related does NOT appear convincing to me. Look at the postings by Prof. N. Ganesan under the thread - "Siva and Avalokitezvara. He says 1) daza bhUmikA sUtra (200 AD), the highest, ultimate state the Bodhisattva reaches is "mahezvara 'siva". 2) The primal spell of Avalokitezvara is Om maNi padme hUm all over the world. "Jewel in the Lotus" refers to the most famous "Siva theme - linga-yoni combination. Regards Swaminathan Madhuresan ---"N. Ganesan" wrote: > > DVN Sarma writes: > >This shows that there is a strong probability that Taranatha's > >Potala is somewhere in the vicinity of Dhanyakataka. (The > >submerging of the path under the sea cannot be explained.) ... > > Taranatha is very late. Seventeenth century AD. > Even though earlier Chinese texts put Mt. Potalaka > in the Malaya mountains, post tenth-century tradition > puts the Mountain Potalaka in an island. Hence the > sea voyage. > > BTW, you were identifying Potala as Tirupati(tiruvEngaDam) > in Indology before I started my Potalaka posts. > What happened to that id.? > > DVN Sarma writes: > >The basic requrement for Potala is that it should be primarily > >a Buddhist center and for its bonafides it should not > >invoke proxies like Siva and Daksinamurti. > > Thanks for the summary of your views. > > But, it cannot be supported with available evidence > from pre-10th century material in Tamil, Sanskrit > and Chinese. > > Few points: > > 1) Pl. look at the Avalokitezvara sitting cross-legged > in the Mt. Potalaka in BorobudUr GaNDavyUha panels > (800 AD). He resembles 'Siva very much. He wears > matted hair like 'Siva, holds rosary beads and a > kamaNdalam. Exactly like a great yogin. ('Siva mahadeva). > > 2) Xuan Zang (or, may be his disciple (cf. Petr Mares' > posts)) in 640 AD and Chih-Sheng, Buddhist monk > (688-740 AD) who lived in the T'ang dynasty give > descriptions of Mt Potalaka in Malaya mountains > where the Bodhisattva appears as > Avalokitezvara or 'Siva depending on the religious > affliation of the devotees. > > 3) There is a very long tradition in Tamil telling that > 'Siva taught Tamil grammar to Agastya, the Malayamuni. > In Sanskrit, there is a long traditon that 'Siva taught > grammar to Panini (Who inspired Panini, JAOS, 1997). > Note that the Sanskrit texts narrating this myth are from > South India (eg., Haradatta's padamaJjari, Nandikezvara > kArikA, ..) Tamil tradition also has Avalikitezvara teaching > Tamil to Agastya. Southern Sanskrit tradition talks of > Avalokitezvara inspiring Panini also. These Saivaite > and Buddhist claims point to DakSiNAmUrti, the teacher > par excellence, under the banyan tree. Classical Tamil texts > have this motif. MahabhArata XII talking of "Siva as the > Supreme teacher is ONLY from Southern recension (cf. de Jong). > Note also that dakSiNAmUrti sculpture is only > found in Tamilakam (Of course, there are Nolamba > dakSiNAmUrtis in Dharmapuri situated in Tamil Nadu). > > 4)Why would the following authorities say the following > if there is no connection between 'Siva and Avalokitezvara: > > A. C. Soper writes 'Siva has a Buddhist alter ego Avalokitzevara. > Alexander C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhist art in China, > Artibus Asiae publishers, 1959 > p.59: > "; not, I think, by abrupt transition to a rival cult, but because > 'Siva had probably been accepted for the time being in the > Cambodian Buddhist pantheon as a Bodhisattva, with attributes similar > in many ways to those of his Buddhist *alter ego* Avalokitezvara." > > A. L. Basham (The Wonder That was India, p. 308) says, " A further > form in which the god is worshipped is known as the "South-facing" > (DakSiNAmUrti) (pl. LXVIII); in this aspect he is the universal > teacher, depicted in an informal pose, with one foot on the ground > and the other on the throne on which he sits, and with one hand > raised in a gesture of explanation. This form of ziva > perhaps owes something to Buddhist inspiration." > > Regards > N. Ganesan > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 16 20:26:47 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 12:26:47 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046432.23782.13858954378079661460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< It is not a view but an absolutely basic requirement . All the writers say that it is the abode of Tara and Avalokitesvara and not of Siva or Dakshinamurty. Any place which is not primarily a buddhist center is UNFIT to be considered as a candidate of Potala. >>> CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY??? You must mean Buddhist authors; of course, they won't reveal 'saivaite connexions. Is it not? Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Feb 16 11:56:15 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 12:56:15 +0100 Subject: SV: "Fire" cleared without cuts Message-ID: <161227046412.23782.1798190494087281104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > At 21:52 14.02.99 -0600, sumedh wrote: > >On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Partha Banerjee wrote: > > > >> So, what was all this fiasco about? > > > >You tell us. You're the one who sent innumerable posts about an > >irritating little offensive homosexual film on the Indology list. etc.etc. Gentlemen, may I suggest a more practical solution to this squabble? Agree upon a time and a place, bring your swords and have an old-fashioned duel. That might clear the air. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 16 21:24:15 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 13:24:15 -0800 Subject: Malaya location in 5th cent. Message-ID: <161227046438.23782.6763496117110711711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< In the received vesrion of the text which is based on manuscript no older than 12 century however we can see the place as "the top of the Lanka mountain on the SHORE of the southern sea" In the second mentioning in the text that survived even in the chinese manuscripts and which is probably the begining of the sutra in its early form, there in this text from the 420 A.D. in manuscripts from 7th or 8th cent. is Buddha requested to preach in the kingdom of Lanka on the mountain of Mala (MaLaShan) (received version from the 12th cent. manuscript has MalayaShan) IN THE OCEAN. I wonder if this word "Mala" can suggest any meaning in Sanskrit language especially in the passage bellow. >>> Dear Petr, Greetings from N. Ganesan. Malai in Tamil means mountain. In Sanskrit, malaya is a Dravidian loan word. We have numerous texts locating Malaya mountain in Pandya country, both in Sanskrit and Tamil. It is the Mt. Potikai/Potiyil I am talking about. I think Mahabharata, vAnaparvan section on Malaya mountain has exactly the description you are telling. The Mahabharata passage describes the abode of Agastya, the muni/saint of Malaya mountain. This MBh. description also describes the Lake on Malaya mountain. Check out the MBh. vanaparvan passage in the English translation by J. van Buitenan, UChicagop. The same kind of description of Malaya mountain is provided by Xuan Zang and also Chih Sheng. With a Lake on the Malaya/Potalaka mountain. I am looking at US Airforce map, a very detailed one. The Mt. Potikai is about 6500 feet high. It is closer to Quilon (Kollam) on the seashore of the Kerala (West) coast. It is not far from Thiruvananthapuram either. There is a huge lake from which the river taNporunai/tAmraparNI flows. There are many lakes in Malaya mountain range, Some miles north, there is a town, Periya kuLam, (Big Lake); Some miles south there is a big lake in Kanyakumari district. All in Malaya mountains of South India. There are many clues to GaNDavyUha; it talks of successive kalyANamitra sites of South India. Few are in Tamilnadu. For example, kollip pAvai narrated in Classical Sangam texts finds a place in GaNDavyUha. The Lotus sutra also few very South specific themes. May be LankAvatAra sUtra is also a South Indian text talking of Mt. Malaya/Potiyil/Potikai. Two centuries later, Bodhidharma, Dinnaga, DharmakIrti etal., from Kanchipuram spread Buddhism to the East. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From erpet at COMP.CZ Tue Feb 16 12:47:11 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 13:47:11 +0100 Subject: SV: "Fire" cleared without cuts In-Reply-To: <01BE59AB.EC0CE3E0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227046416.23782.3953670258011788459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What a colorfull Hyde Park list. So different from all the Sinology mailing lists I am at. Best wishes and motives to all fighting scholars involved Petr Mares > > At 21:52 14.02.99 -0600, sumedh wrote: > > >On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Partha Banerjee wrote: > > > > > >> So, what was all this fiasco about? > > > > > >You tell us. You're the one who sent innumerable posts about an > > >irritating little offensive homosexual film on the Indology list. > etc.etc. > > Gentlemen, > > may I suggest a more practical solution to this squabble? Agree upon a > time and a place, bring your swords and have an old-fashioned duel. That > might clear the air. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Feb 16 10:48:14 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 13:48:14 +0300 Subject: a check on the GItA 1.28 Message-ID: <161227046406.23782.11172256834607356648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> BORI Critical edition has in 6.23.28 (GItA 1.28): dRSTvemAn svajanAn kRSNa yuyutsUn samavasthitAn || The variant dRSTvemaM svajanaM kRSNa yuyutsuM samupasthitam || is mentioned in the Critical apparatus as appearing in some MSS of NIlakANTha's commentary on the Mbh and Dhanapati's subcommentary BhASyotkarSadIpikA (on ZaMkara's GItAbhASya). The editions you refer to follow evidently the text of the Northern Recension in NIlakANTha's version. Unfortunately I can not check now what variant is used by the Bombay edition. Shall try to do it tomorrow. All the best, Ya.V. ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu vassilkov at hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Tue Feb 16 09:36:38 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 14:36:38 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990131214831.008618a0@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227046402.23782.11621624648530456010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NAGARJUNKONDA/POTALA/POTALAKA -2 If we read Taranatha's "History of Buddhism in India" carefully, we come to the conclusion that there are two aspects of Potala. One potala is a geographical place. The other potala is a mystical place sacred to the buddhists as is vaikuThaM for vaiSNavAs and kailAsaM for saivAs. We see this mystical Potala in TArAnAthA's book on page 246 (Motilal Banarasidas, 1990.) ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Why do you keep yourself thus shut from morning to the evening." ............................................................... "Oh son, I practise nothing special. I simply go to the Potala hill to listen to the Doctrine from Arya Avalokithesvara and open the door after comnig back." ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is clear from the above quotation that the person who is shutting himself in the room is visiting the mystical potala in his meditation. (cf. Mount Kailas and Kailasam) As far as the geographical potala is concerned the following quotations are there. (Page 192) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "He reached the Dhanyakataka caitya in the island of Dhanasri while moving from there to potala.He had to go through a subterranean way and then by a route over the earth, which, though existing at that time, is now under the sea....." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Page 208) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "......he atlast resolved to goto Potala and sailed to the island of Dhanasri from Jambudvipa. "In the Dhanyakataka caitya there, he worshipped Tara and Avalokitesvara and built a hundred temples for each of them. He went to the Potala hill and is still living there without renouncing his mortal body." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are two significant things in the above two quotations. 1. On their way to Potala they go to Dhanasri island and Dhanykataka. This indicates that Potala is somewhere in the general area of Dhanyakataka. 2. Between Dhanyakataka and Potala no other geographical places (like towns) are mentioned (though forests and a river are mentioned in the first case. I have not quoted it). This shows that there is a strong probability that Taranatha's Potala is somewhere in the vicinity of Dhanyakataka. (The submerging of the path under the sea cannot be explained. But then there will always be more things that we cannot explain than things we can explain in books of this type). There are more than one Potala is obvious because there is the duplicate in Tibet and there appears to be another on the coast of China. This is natural because Potala appears to be a place of pilgrimage for Buddhists and duplicte centers of pilgrimage are needed to cater to people who cannot afford to go very far.(Duplicate Kasis, Prayags etc. are all over India). We need not be surprised if there duplicate Potalas in India also. The basic requirement for Potala is that it should be primarily a Buddhist center and for its bonafides it should not invoke proxies like Siva or Dakshinamurti. regards, sarma. From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 16 11:45:28 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 16:45:28 +0500 Subject: On 'patra/pattra' again! Message-ID: <161227046408.23782.4244928570095767108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:08 14.02.99 -0500, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >[...] In my opinion, the phonological variation >is in all likelihood the more primary fact, while the etymologies are >simply rationalizations, after the fact. This reminds me of words like 'tattva' and 'sattva', which in books printed in Kannada script almost always become 'tatva' and 'satva'. Prosodically there is no difference. Could this prosodical consideration have played a role in the change in spelling from 'pattra' to 'patra'? RZ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 17 03:08:21 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 19:08:21 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046449.23782.8281201654388620023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DVN Sarma wrote: > One Potala is a geographical place. The other Potala is >a mystical place ... >There are more than one Potala is obvious because there is the >duplicate in Tibet and there appears to be another on the coast of >China. Earlier, DVN Sarma wrote: > 1. As can be seen from the name of the Dalailama's palace which is > potala palace, the basic word is potala and not potalaka ... > In that case we have to say that potala and potalaka are different. All the above statements are obscure to me. I do not understand. All Chinese and Tibetan Potalaka are secondary derivatives of Mt. Potalaka, the abode of Avalokitezvara mentioned in GaNDavyUha sUtra for the first time. (2nd century AD). Naming other places after a famous precursor is all too common; We have London, a small town in Ohio also. The veda becomes three and then four as time goes by; In South Tamilnadu when we hear "VedakArar" it means Christians. In Islamic Tamil texts, when we hear Veda it means Koran. Evidently, these are named after Hindu Veda. Academic scholars told me that P'u t'o is identical to Mt. Potalaka. "Chinese like to shorten Potalaka as P'u t'o. They mean one and the same. Even though P'u t'o is an island, Chinese always call it Mount P'u t'o" - Chun-fang Yu, Prof. of Religion, Rutgers University "Ganesan, I don't think there is much point in trying to distinguish between Potala and Potalaka" - Geoffrey Samuel, author of Civilized shamans: Buddhism in Tibetan societies, 1993 (which I immensely enjoy reading). David Snellgrove & Hugh Richardson, A cultural history of Tibet, p. 200 "Potala palace is named after the holy mountain Potala in Southern India, which is sacred to Shiva as 'Lord of the World'. (Lokezvara)". Pl. note the Saivaite link to Mt. Potala here also. Potala and Potalaka are one and the same. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From erpet at COMP.CZ Tue Feb 16 20:37:56 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 21:37:56 +0100 Subject: Malaya location in 5th cent. In-Reply-To: <19990216162409.9475.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046434.23782.7363963019767310016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Taranatha is very late. Seventeenth century AD. Dear colleagues > Even though earlier Chinese texts put Mt. Potalaka > in the Malaya mountains, post tenth-century tradition > puts the Mountain Potalaka in an island. Hence the > sea voyage. Let me tell you interesting thing regarding the location of Malaya as it is mentioned in the Lankavatara sutra. The Sanskrit text has oldest manuscripts just few hundred years old (mostly 17th cent. but the first Chinese translation of Gunabhadra written in the beginning of the 5th century has perfectly preserved manuscripts from 7th or 8th century and they show much older layer of the text than the Sanskrit as we have it now at least for many parts. In the Gunabhadra translation a location of the discourse is mentioned just twice. The passage in the very beginning is probably not of the oldest layers as is the other part where the Malaya is mentioned. The begining is not in the manuscripts - it has rotten away. In the received vesrion of the text which is based on manuscript no older than 12 century however we can see the place as "the top of the Lanka mountain on the SHORE of the southern sea" In the second mentioning in the text that survived even in the chinese manuscripts and which is probably the begining of the sutra in its early form, there in this text from the 420 A.D. in manuscripts from 7th or 8th cent. is Buddha requested to preach in the kingdom of Lanka on the mountain of Mala (MaLaShan) (received version from the 12th cent. manuscript has MalayaShan) IN THE OCEAN. I wonder if this word "Mala" can suggest any meaning in Sanskrit language especially in the passage bellow. The Sanskrit text of Buniyu Nanjio has for this passage which is probably the earliest opening of this text we have now following: II de/Sayatu me bhagavam/Scittamanomanovij~Napa~NcadharmasvabhAvalakSaNa kusumadharma(paryAyam) (also -kusuma or -kusumamapa) buddhabodhisattvAnuyAtam sva-(also yAtasva-) cittadr/Syagocaravisamyojanam sarvabh(-ASya) (also - Spam)yuktitattvalakakSaNavidAraNam sarvabuddhapravacanah.rdaya la.NkApurigirimalaye nivAsino bodhisattvAnArabhyodadhitara.NgAlayavij~NAnagocaram dharmakAyam tathAgatAnugitam prabhASasva II Can somebody please help me and translate this Sanskrit opening above? the transcription is of TITUS-Ascii. Sincerely Petr Mares > > BTW, you were identifying Potala as Tirupati(tiruvEngaDam) > in Indology before I started my Potalaka posts. > What happened to that id.? > > DVN Sarma writes: > >The basic requrement for Potala is that it should be primarily > >a Buddhist center and for its bonafides it should not > >invoke proxies like Siva and Daksinamurti. > > Thanks for the summary of your views. > > But, it cannot be supported with available evidence > from pre-10th century material in Tamil, Sanskrit > and Chinese. > > Few points: > > 1) Pl. look at the Avalokitezvara sitting cross-legged > in the Mt. Potalaka in BorobudUr GaNDavyUha panels > (800 AD). He resembles 'Siva very much. He wears > matted hair like 'Siva, holds rosary beads and a > kamaNdalam. Exactly like a great yogin. ('Siva mahadeva). > > 2) Xuan Zang (or, may be his disciple (cf. Petr Mares' > posts)) in 640 AD and Chih-Sheng, Buddhist monk > (688-740 AD) who lived in the T'ang dynasty give > descriptions of Mt Potalaka in Malaya mountains > where the Bodhisattva appears as > Avalokitezvara or 'Siva depending on the religious > affliation of the devotees. > > 3) There is a very long tradition in Tamil telling that > 'Siva taught Tamil grammar to Agastya, the Malayamuni. > In Sanskrit, there is a long traditon that 'Siva taught > grammar to Panini (Who inspired Panini, JAOS, 1997). > Note that the Sanskrit texts narrating this myth are from > South India (eg., Haradatta's padamaJjari, Nandikezvara > kArikA, ..) Tamil tradition also has Avalikitezvara teaching > Tamil to Agastya. Southern Sanskrit tradition talks of > Avalokitezvara inspiring Panini also. These Saivaite > and Buddhist claims point to DakSiNAmUrti, the teacher > par excellence, under the banyan tree. Classical Tamil texts > have this motif. MahabhArata XII talking of "Siva as the > Supreme teacher is ONLY from Southern recension (cf. de Jong). > Note also that dakSiNAmUrti sculpture is only > found in Tamilakam (Of course, there are Nolamba > dakSiNAmUrtis in Dharmapuri situated in Tamil Nadu). > > 4)Why would the following authorities say the following > if there is no connection between 'Siva and Avalokitezvara: > > A. C. Soper writes 'Siva has a Buddhist alter ego Avalokitzevara. > Alexander C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhist art in China, > Artibus Asiae publishers, 1959 p.59: "; not, I think, by abrupt transition > to a rival cult, but because 'Siva had probably been accepted for the time > being in the Cambodian Buddhist pantheon as a Bodhisattva, with attributes > similar in many ways to those of his Buddhist *alter ego* Avalokitezvara." > > A. L. Basham (The Wonder That was India, p. 308) says, " A further > form in which the god is worshipped is known as the "South-facing" > (DakSiNAmUrti) (pl. LXVIII); in this aspect he is the universal > teacher, depicted in an informal pose, with one foot on the ground > and the other on the throne on which he sits, and with one hand > raised in a gesture of explanation. This form of ziva > perhaps owes something to Buddhist inspiration." > > Regards > N. Ganesan > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Tue Feb 16 20:51:33 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 21:51:33 +0100 Subject: Malaya 5th. cent corrected Message-ID: <161227046436.23782.12884959509846252098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues I am sorry for 3 mistakes that found its way to my transcripton. This is corrected and hopefully correct version of the text sent before. II de/Sayatu me bhagavam/Scittamanomanovij~NAnapa~NcadharmasvabhAvalakSaN a kusumadharma(paryAyam) (also -kusuma or -kusumamapa instead of paryAyam) buddhabodhisattvAnuyAtam sva-(also yAtasva-) cittadr/Syagocaravisamyojanam sarvabh(-ASya) (also - Spam)yuktitattvalakSaNavidAraNam sarvabuddhapravacanah.rdaya la.NkApurigirimalaye nivAsino bodhisattvAnArabhyodadhitara.NgAlayavij~NAnagocaram dharmakAyam tathAgatAnugitam prabhASasva II Can somebody please help me and translate this Sanskrit opening above? the transcription is of TITUS-Ascii. The variations are due to different manuscripts Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Tue Feb 16 22:02:38 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 23:02:38 +0100 Subject: Malaya location in 5th cent. In-Reply-To: <19990216212416.25423.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046440.23782.9348355315114215241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Naga Ganesan Thank You for the fast response. I wonder how somebody can write that much that fast. Congratulation ;-) > Dear Petr, > > Greetings from N. Ganesan. > > Malai in Tamil means mountain. In Sanskrit, malaya is > a Dravidian loan word. That is what makes the thing much clearer as the Gunabhadra who is the first person we are sure about to translate Lankavatara came from Central or Southern India by boat through South China Sea.. Although I have no Idea about what place he may be talking about (there is no Potala mentioned in the scripture so far as I know but he may have been Dravida speaker. (there may be one older translation of this scripture according to the fifth century catalogues, that was brough by Dharmaraksha from Gandhara to NW China, but we have no remains at this time) > > We have numerous texts locating Malaya mountain in > Pandya country, both in Sanskrit and Tamil. It is > the Mt. Potikai/Potiyil I am talking about. > > I think Mahabharata, vAnaparvan section on Malaya mountain > has exactly the description you are telling. > The Mahabharata passage describes the abode of Agastya, > the muni/saint of Malaya mountain. This MBh. description also > describes the Lake on Malaya mountain. Check out the > MBh. vanaparvan passage in the English translation by > J. van Buitenan, UChicagop. > > The same kind of description of Malaya mountain is provided > by Xuan Zang and also Chih Sheng. With a Lake on the Malaya/Potalaka > mountain. > > I am looking at US Airforce map, a very detailed one. > The Mt. Potikai is about 6500 feet high. It is closer > to Quilon (Kollam) on the seashore of the Kerala (West) coast. > It is not far from Thiruvananthapuram either. > There is a huge lake from which the river taNporunai/tAmraparNI > flows. There are many lakes in Malaya mountain range, > Some miles north, there is a town, Periya kuLam, (Big Lake); > Some miles south there is a big lake in Kanyakumari district. > All in Malaya mountains of South India. I will have to go and see myself. I always felt affection for South India and since the Arunaachala in Tiruvanamalai is in state of disaster at the moment this may be a wonderfull pilgrimage related to the scripture of life. I do not have the map here so I just wonder if this is where Veerapan lives. > > There are many clues to GaNDavyUha; it talks of successive > kalyANamitra sites of South India. Few are in Tamilnadu. > For example, kollip pAvai narrated in Classical Sangam > texts finds a place in GaNDavyUha. The Lotus sutra also > few very South specific themes. My trouble with the Sanskrit scriptures is their growing and changing with the time. If you come to Lankavatara of the Gunabhadra from 420A.D. and to the Lankavatara in Sanskrit as we have it now in its oldest manuscript. The Sanskrit is significantly bigger and differrent in many ways as the people who were rewriting it always add something, changed or massed up. > > May be LankAvatAra sUtra is also a South Indian text > talking of Mt. Malaya/Potiyil/Potikai. According to my visits of South India I have a very strong feeling this text either originated there or in some place of similiar conditions. > Two centuries later, Bodhidharma, Dinnaga, DharmakIrti > etal., from Kanchipuram spread Buddhism to the East. Bodhidharma came to Canton from Tamil Nadu one century after the Gunabhadra and start using this text to teach. But my question is who brought and who compiled this scripture. And where? There are 5th century buddhist sanskrit engravings in Kedah in Malaysia but is there anything such old related to Buddhism in Sanskrit anywhere in South India? Sincerely Petr Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Tue Feb 16 22:46:38 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 23:46:38 +0100 Subject: Advaitam and other schools of VedAnta In-Reply-To: <19990216161450.222.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046442.23782.4081472421822273243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Sarvam buddhimayam jagat - the whole world is ideal - is found in the > source of the YogAcAra views - the LankAvatAra SUtrA itself. Asanga and > VAubandhu, too take the same line. There?re obvious problems with this > theory, which ShankarAcharya attacks. Dear Nanda Chandran May I ask where in Lankavatara have you seen this sentence, or do you mean it just generally carry this worldview? Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Tue Feb 16 18:50:42 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 23:50:42 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990216162409.9475.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046423.23782.8712492709635452355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:24 AM 2/16/99 PST, you wrote: >DVN Sarma writes: > BTW, you were identifying Potala as Tirupati(tiruvEngaDam) > in Indology before I started my Potalaka posts. > What happened to that id.? > I never did that. I was identifying it with Nagarjunakonda only. >DVN Sarma writes: >>The basic requrement for Potala is that it should be primarily >>a Buddhist center and for its bonafides it should not >>invoke proxies like Siva and Daksinamurti. > > Thanks for the summary of your views. > It is not a view but an absolutely basic requirement . All the writers say that it is the abode of Tara and Avalokitesvara and not of Siva or Dakshinamurty. Any place which is not primarily a buddhist center is UNFIT to be considered as a candidate of Potala. regards, sarma. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 17 12:12:42 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 04:12:42 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046454.23782.10272502182679153724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Is there such old manuscript of GaNDavyUha. I have very convincing experience that text verysignificantly change through the centuries. Unless there is a manuscript or the passage is repeated in the text that has that old manuscript we should not claim that it is from from 2nd century. There are very convincing examples of the Sanskrit Buddhist texts that have counterparts in much older Chinese mansucripts. I would like to hear some other experiences and shere the examples. >>> Petr Mares' point eludes me and is obscure. We do not have Vedas' manuscripts from 1000BC. They are considered "tape recordings". Prof. M. Witzel, On the mahabhasya, IIJ says all the Sanskrit texts edited in India represent only 1000 AD versions and not before. Modern print editions of Mahabhashya follow Kielhorn! A point for your Lankavatara sUtra edition: B. Watson, KumarajIva's translation of the Lotus sUtra talks of "The Lotus sutra may not be even written in Sanskrit, could be translated into Sanskrit later". So, my take on your quote on Lankavatara sUtra Sanskrit passage is that it is highly corrupt, and may be a translation of the original, written possibly not even in Sanskrit. (Ref.: B. Watson, The Lotus sutra, ColumbiaUP) I understand that mahAyAna sUtras grow in size and complexity over centuries. But fortunately for mahayana sutras, we have early translations into Chinese, that are well fixed in time. GaNDavyUha, the last chapter of avatamsaka, is one such. We have few translations of GaNDavyUha from third century onwards! In Chinese, so GaNDavyUha, like Lotus sUtra, is old. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 17 12:18:55 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 04:18:55 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046456.23782.1653080155806415578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I do not think the Buddhist authors concealed any Saivaite connections because most of the quotations that are being mentioned in support of the equivalence of Siva and Avalokitesvara are from them. But any such equivalence is a later developement. >>> What about daza bhUmikaa sUtra where ultimately the Bodhisattva's highest state is Mahezvara 'Siva? This is one of the earliest mahayana sutras to enter China (2nd century AD). Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 17 12:41:28 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 04:41:28 -0800 Subject: Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains Message-ID: <161227046457.23782.18001216608972892879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganesan> nAgArjunakoNDA and Mount Potalaka are two different places Ganesan> in Buddhist texts. Both of them are in Southern India Ganesan> separated hundreds of miles. Mr. DVN Sarma wrote: > As can be seen from the name of the Dalailama's palace which is > potala palace, the basic word is potala and not potalaka. ... >In that case we have to say that potala and potalaka are different The terms Potala and Potalaka refer to only one place which is Mt. Potikai/Potiyil in Malaya mountain range. Potala palace is a secondary derivation of Mt. Potalaka. Potala palace is built in the 17th century based on Mt. Potalaka, the permanent residence of Avalokitezvara mentioned in the GaNDavyUha of 2nd century AD. Dalai Lama is considered an incarnation of Avalokitezvara and hence his palace is Potala. Upto 14-15th centuries AD, Tibetans were transmitting to Chinese, the term Potalaka as the abode of Avalokitezvara. Pl. see, Chun-fang Yu, P'u-t'o Shan: Pilgrimage and the creation of the Chinese Potalaka, 1992 "Indeed, when Sheng came to write the first account pf the P'u-t'o island in 1361 ... Sheng said that when he made a pilgrimage to Mount Wu-t'ai, he heard from a Tibetan master the description of Mount Potalaka found in a "barbarian" (fan) book, Pu-t'o-lo-chia shan hsing-ch'eng chi (A travel account to Mount Potalaka)." Matthew Kapstein says in "Remarks on the MaNi bKa'-'bum and the Cult of Avalokitezvara in Tibet", (in S. Goodman, Tibetan Buddhism, SUNY, 1992) p. 88, "Can it be any any wonder, then, that when Tibet finally achieved a measure of real unity during the XVIIth century -after some seven centuries of strife-it did so under the leadership of a latter day emanation of Mahakarunika (Avalokita) residing in the ancient capital of Lhasa, and constucting for himself a palace on a hill named after the divine Mount Potalaka? ... The notion that Avalokitezvara might be regarded as the primodial deity was introduced into Tibet no later than the IXth century". ------------------------------------------ Lokesh Chandra, Origin of the Avalokitezvara of Potala, 1974, Kailash jl., "Buddhabhadra (AD 420) calls Kuanyin's mountaion Kuang-ming or 'Brilliance', which is usually given as the rendering for Malaya ... Tamil pottu (potti-) 'to light', Kannada pottu n. flaming, pottige 'flame', Tulu potta 'hot, burning'..." At many instances, Kuanyin is seated on the 'diamond boulder' of Mount Potalaka in Chinese translations. Note that Tamil Lexicon gives Poti-vai as 'placing treasure' and putaiyal as 'treasure'. Note the sonoric correspondence between Potiyil and Putaiyal or Potikai with Potivai. The ancient Chinese translators know Potalaka as 'Brilliant Mountain' and 'Diamond Boulder', but not as 'waterfalls'. Regards, N. Ganesan Query: Is there any Telugu evidence before 9th century that the name of the waterfalls near nAgArjunakONDa was something similar to etti potala? Is the form of the Telugu word for waterfalls was something similar to "potala" before 9th century? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Feb 17 01:34:10 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 06:34:10 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990216202648.7905.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046444.23782.9617456915116717267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not think the Buddhist authors concealed any Saivaite connections because most of the quotations that are being mentioned in support of the equivalence of Siva and Avalokitesvara are from them. But any such equivalence is a later developement. A place which the most sacred to the Buddhists and which is the abode of the Mahayanic dieties Tara and Avalokitesvara must be primarily and originally a Buddhist center. regards, sarma. At 12:26 PM 2/16/99 PST, you wrote: ><<< >It is not a view but an absolutely basic requirement . >All the writers say that it is the abode of Tara and Avalokitesvara >and not of Siva or Dakshinamurty. Any place which is not primarily >a buddhist center is UNFIT to be considered as a candidate of Potala. >>>> > > CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY??? > > You must mean Buddhist authors; of course, they > won't reveal 'saivaite connexions. Is it not? > > Chris > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Feb 17 01:56:25 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 06:56:25 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990216193914.12032.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046447.23782.15712407720356848795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:39 AM 2/16/99 PST, you wrote: > Now of course, DVN is saying there should be no 'Saivaite > dakSiNAmUrti connection to Mt. Potalaka. Looks like a major > contradiction. > I have never said any such thing. What I said is very clear & that is you cannot claim a place to be Potala because of the presence of Siva or Dakshinamurty. First of all it has to be a Buddhist center. Or else generations of Buddhists cannot be expected to consider it to be place of pilgrimage. Even if there is a connection between Siva and Avalokitesvara it is clearly a later developement. regards, sarma. >Regards >N. Ganesan > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 17 16:32:10 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 08:32:10 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046462.23782.13480477421395317072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Are there any Sanskrit Buddhist manuscript in the India proper over >1000 years old? ( I do not mean Gandhara, Kashmir, Khotan Nepal >or Tibet)??? Not really. Must be very rare. Some are in Nepal, acc. to Prof. Witzel >We have translation in the received version, but do we have >manuscripts, that is the QUESTION. I do not doubt the AGE but >the CONTENT in its DETAILS. Avalokitezvara in Mt. Potalaka from GaNDavyUha sUtra is there in earliest Chinese translations of Gv. Also, Gv. Sanskrit editions by David Suzuki and in 1960s edition collating several mss. by P. L. Vaidya. In 800 AD, Borobudur depicts Gv. well; So, by then we have a crystallized version of Gv. So, I am not in search of Gv. mss; What is available from Chinese and Sanskrit is more than sufficient for my purposes. Regards N. Ganesan PS: What you are giving as Sanskrit does not appear to be chaste Sanskrit. Hope the future critical edition is OK. -NG ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 17 17:04:15 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 09:04:15 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046469.23782.13058027810326010508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DVN Sarma writes: >One potala is a geographical place. The other potala is >a mystical place sacred to the buddhists as is vaikuThaM for >vaiSNavAs and kailAsaM for saivAs. We see this mystical Potala >in TArAnAthA's book on page 246 (Motilal Banarasidas, 1990.) May be I am not clear enough. There is Mt. Kailas in 'Saivaite mythology and mysticism; This mythical Mt. Kailas, abode of 'Siva, is based on a REAL Mount Kailas in the Himalaya mountains. There is Mt. Potalaka in Buddhist mythology and mysticism; This mythical Mt. Potalaka, abode of Avalokitezvara, is based on a REAL Mount Potiyil/Potikai/Potiyam in the Malaya mountains. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 17 17:29:36 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 09:29:36 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046475.23782.10694086238275169909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >> PS: What you are giving as Sanskrit does not appear to >> be chaste Sanskrit. Hope the future critical edition is OK. -NG >Could that possible reveal the authors vernacular?? This is quite well known. Many mahayana authors, patronized by mercantile classes (cheTTi (Ta.)/shresTi) with wealth from sea-borne trade, were not sanskrit experts. They were just imitating Samskrit paNDitas, but their works fall far short of good Sanskrit. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Feb 17 09:11:37 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 10:11:37 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990217030822.10627.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046452.23782.5779422073333682041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan > All Chinese and Tibetan Potalaka are secondary derivatives of > Mt. Potalaka, the abode of Avalokitezvara mentioned in > GaNDavyUha sUtra for the first time. (2nd century AD). Is there such old manuscript of GaNDavyUha. I have very convincing experience that text verysignificantly change through the centuries. Unless there is a manuscript or the passage is repeated in the text that has that old manuscript we should not claim that it is from from 2nd century. There are very convincing examples of the Sanskrit Buddhist texts that have counterparts in much older Chinese mansucripts. I would like to hear some other experiences and shere the examples. > "Chinese like to shorten Potalaka as P'u t'o. Chinese shorten everythink, for example Beijing DaXue (BeiJing - the city DaXue - university) becomes BeiDa etc.. > They mean one and the same. Even though P'u t'o is an island, > Chinese always call it Mount P'u t'o" - Chun-fang Yu, > Prof. of Religion, Rutgers University Many of the island off the coast of Shanghai are called by name ending on "Shan" - mountain, but that is the name, it probably does not suggest there is a mountain there. > > "Ganesan, I don't think there is much point in trying to > distinguish between Potala and Potalaka" - Geoffrey Samuel, > author of Civilized shamans: Buddhism in Tibetan societies, 1993 > (which I immensely enjoy reading). The Chinese Are masters of shortening, there is no doubt. Even Buddha (FuoTa) become just Fuo. > > Pl. note the Saivaite link to Mt. Potala here also. > Potala and Potalaka are one and the same. Pl;ease note that many Buddhist text were growing through the centuries and now we have in the Sanskrit manuscripts of Lanka persons, like Shiva, Ravana, Indra, Katyayana etc.very often mentioned. But even in the older versions there are many Hindu gods and godesses, rakshasas etc. The buddhist were certainly influenced by the cultere that surrounded them. Buddha in Bhagavat in Lankavatara often identifies himself with Buddha, Indra, Shiva etc.. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 17 19:17:15 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 11:17:15 -0800 Subject: Permission to reprint AKR's essay Message-ID: <161227046478.23782.9871077145317293493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, A friend, Al. Rammohan of Chicago wants to reprint A. K. Ramanujan's essay from "The interior landscape: love poems from a classical Tamil anthology", Bloomington: Indiana university press, 1967 Pl. provide the address to whom the letter seeking permission must be sent. Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Feb 17 20:12:53 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (michael witzel) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 15:12:53 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <199902171658.RAA21351@vega.inec.cz> Message-ID: <161227046480.23782.929973454659884743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I believe we have to differentiate between Early Chinese >Translations and Early Manuscripts of Early Chinese Translations! >It is specially visible for those found in China where scholars deal >with manuscripts from the centuries BC times very often!! And >compare them to the received versions!! Precisely. I noticed the same difference between the old Xinjiang MS of the Sardulavikritia Avadana (at Bodleian Libr., Oxford -- the other part is at St.Petersburg) and the printed version in the Avadana coll. , which is based on relatively late (17th /18th c.) MSS from Nepal. Over c. 1000 years a lot has been added to the text in South Asia/Nepal... A comparison of the fairly early Chinese transl . (3rd cent. I recall?) may help, of course. There are several Chin. transl.... Michael Witzel DEPARTMENT OF SANSKRIT AND INDIAN STUDIES HARVARD UNIVERSITY 2 DIVINITY AVENUE CAMBRIDGE, MA 02138, U.S.A. (617) 495-3295 FAX: (617) 496-8571 direct: 496-2990 email witzel at fas.harvard.edu home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Feb 17 20:28:02 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 15:28:02 -0500 Subject: Permission to reprint AKR's essay Message-ID: <161227046482.23782.10123101541670920905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The obvious place to start is with the publisher, whose general address and telephone are as follows: Indiana University Press 601 N. Morton Street, Bloomington IN 47404-3797 1-800-842-6796 If you have a copy at hand you can find, probably on the reverse of the title page, who owns the copyright. If it was Ramanujan himself you could find his literary executor by calling the South Asia Language and Area Center at U. Chicago, 312-702-8635, which can probably find it out for you. Is AKR becoming a standard way to refer to Ramanujan? On the the model of AKC for Ananada Coomaraswamy? Sincerely, Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Feb 17 20:30:19 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 15:30:19 -0500 Subject: job posting Message-ID: <161227046485.23782.5681516960135599448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job announcement (reposting) is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the ACADEMIC POSITIONS section of SARAI Please contact the posters directly for any further information. PLEASE DO NOT SEND JOB APPLICATIONS TO ME (OR TO SARAI)! ^^^ Thanks. David Magier =================================================== University of Chicago: Hindi (reposting) Appointment in Hindi The Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations at the University of Chicago invites applications for an assistant professor, tenure-track position in Hindi language and literature, to begin in AY 1999-2000. We are looking for someone with competence and interest in teaching modern Hindi as well as one or more of the pre-modern literary languages of North India, such as Brajbhasa and Avadhi. The position entails the responsibility for periodically teaching humanities courses included in the College's general education curriculum. Applicants are requested to send a detailed letter describing their current research project and teaching interests, a representative sample of their scholarly writing, and three letters of reference. Review of applications will begin February 1, 1999. The University of Chicago is an Affirmative Action Equal Employment Opportunity employer. Please direct all correspondence to: Hindi Search Committee Dept. of South Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Chicago 1130 E. 59th St. Chicago, IL 60637-1543, USA From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Feb 17 15:14:47 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 16:14:47 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990217121243.27822.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046460.23782.17116156561559109377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Naga Ganesan > A point for your Lankavatara sUtra edition: > So, my take on your quote on Lankavatara sUtra Sanskrit > passage is that it is highly corrupt, and may be a translation > of the original, written possibly not even in Sanskrit. > (Ref.: B. Watson, The Lotus sutra, ColumbiaUP) I do not know Sanskrit so I would greatly appreciate any comments from Sanskrit scholar on the parts I have posted. Is it not written in Sanskrit??? Could it in that case be that it was translated into Sanskrit or some indian vernacular written in Devanagari or Nepali from Chinese?? That is what I always feel (but did not want to believe when reading the first Chinese GUNABHADRA version from 420 A.D. it is an INDIAN VERNACULAR WRITTEN IN CHINESE SCRIPT!!!! There are many manuscripts of this version older than 1000 years very well precserved from the Central Asian desert caves. Are there any Sanskrit Buddhist manuscript in the India proper over 1000 years old? ( I do not mean Gandhara, Kashmir, Khotan Nepal or Tibet)??? > I understand that mahAyAna sUtras grow in size and complexity > over centuries. But fortunately for mahayana sutras, > we have early translations into Chinese, that are well fixed > in time. The chinese translations are ussualy not same in the received vesrion and in the old manuscripts. I f manuscripts are being rewritten every 300 years or so in India there should be even more differencies between the received vesrion and the version as it was known 1800 years ago. If the Gandavyuha has been copied so many times since 200 A.D I have no soubt it will be very differrent now. What is obscure on that?? > > GaNDavyUha, the last chapter of avatamsaka, is one such. > We have few translations of GaNDavyUha from third century onwards! > In Chinese, so GaNDavyUha, like Lotus sUtra, is old. We have translation in the received version, but do we have manuscripts, that is the QUESTION. I do not doubt the AGE but the CONTENT in its DETAILS. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 18 00:54:31 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 16:54:31 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046493.23782.320633837303899974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am really wonder if texts steming from the 2nd cent. A.D. such as >GV are remaining same even in their exact wording up to now >through numerous rewriting before the invention of printing >(especially while there were probably many versions due to the >difficoulty of communication in the early times). I am using the Avalokitezvara and his abode, Mt. Potalaka data from Jan Fontein, The pilgrimage of Sudhana, A study of GaNDavyUha illustrations in China, Japan and Java, Mouton & Co., 1967 Fontein has done substantial work on Gv. text and its Chinese translations. For example, he discusses Gv translations into Chinese by: 1) LokakSema or LokarakSa (168-188 AD) 2) Sheng-chien (around 373-395 AD) 3) Buddhabhadra (418-421 AD) 4) DivAkara (680 AD) 5) zikSAnanda (699 AD) Pl. refer his book for GaNDavyUha sUtra. N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Feb 17 16:59:33 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 17:59:33 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990217163210.6464.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046465.23782.661106499086232426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > So, I am not in search of Gv. mss; What is available > from Chinese and Sanskrit is more than sufficient > for my purposes. There is always a difference between the received version and the old manuscripts, sometimes huge sometimes small. But if the scripture was being rewritten again and again, the received version will ussualy reflect the opinions and ideas of the LAST SCRIBER before the scripture become widespread and many copies were available (especially before the invention of printing in the 9th cent. It pays especially for details such as proper spelled names. So unless you have the manuscripts I believe it is not proper to claim any authenticity as of the original. That is just my experience with the ancient Buddhist manuscripts. ear I believe we have to differentiate between Early Chinese Translations and Early Manuscripts of Early Chinese Translations! It is specially visible for those found in China where scholars deal with manuscripts from the centuries BC times very often!! And compare them to the received versions!! I would like to hear other opinions and learn from experiences from others. I have experience with just few texts so it may not be truth for others. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Feb 17 17:02:17 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 18:02:17 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990217163210.6464.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046467.23782.4680899157191167628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:32:10 PST Send reply to: Indology From: "N. Ganesan" Subject: Re: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > PS: What you are giving as Sanskrit does not appear to > be chaste Sanskrit. Hope the future critical edition is OK. -NG Could that possible reveal the authors vernacular?? Sincerely Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Feb 17 20:39:44 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 21:39:44 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046487.23782.3594860893319874778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A > comparison of the fairly early Chinese transl . (3rd cent. I recall?) may > help, of course. That is what I meant - the Chinese translations, but in their early manuscripts as they will often differ from the received Chinese versions in various details. There is huge number of Chinese Buddhist translations from the 4th and 5th cent. that are in manuscripts from 7th and 8th cent. very well preserved and complete until now due to dry climate of Xinjiang. These are the scrolls one have to look at for some detail information - as the name of the place or person - as it will often change in the course of rewriting in hot and humid climates Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Wed Feb 17 20:54:59 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 21:54:59 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046490.23782.2685705419688550601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues In fact when I see the claims about the antiquity of some texts in their entirety, I have to mention the case of the pre-Han Chinese manuscripts from 3rd and 4th cent BC. These 2000 and more years old manuscripts often on silk have ussualy counterparts in the received versions. In the course of times they were often made into the stone and yet they are in many parts different from what we have in their received versions. Although China was even more united then India with single script and single official language, we still can see some major differencies even in the case of such honoured documents as ZhouYi, which was found recently in the silk manuscript from 2nd cent. BC in MaWangDui. I am really wonder if texts steming from the 2nd cent. A.D. such as GV are remaining same even in their exact wording up to now through numerous rewriting before the invention of printing (especially while there were probably many versions due to the difficoulty of communication in the early times). Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Feb 17 19:22:15 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 00:22:15 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990217170416.6841.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046476.23782.5101021322345465451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:04 AM 2/17/99 PST, N.Ganesan wrote: > There is Mt. Potalaka in Buddhist mythology and mysticism; > This mythical Mt. Potalaka, abode of Avalokitezvara, is based on > a REAL Mount Potiyil/Potikai/Potiyam in the Malaya mountains. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > This has been your assertion. By simply repeating it a number of times it does not get established. I feel that the evidence so far presented for the above assertion is not sufficient. You have been asking everybody for inscriptions, dates etc. Why don't you sit down and do a bit of stock-taking. On one side you write down what are the things that are required to identify Malaya as Potala/Potalaka. On the other side whether you have the evidence to convince others with that. Even assuming a Potalaka existed on the extreme south, we have Buddhist authors saying that the land route is submerged by sea, implying that the Mountain is no more connected with India by land route. Can be Abhayagiri (is the name correct?) of Ceylon. regards, sarma. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 18 13:14:01 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 05:14:01 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046505.23782.4455799954553909159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I feel I am probably not clear in what I want to say. I do not talk >about the date when the GV was translated (at least not only) but >about the age of actual PHYSICAL MANUSCRIPTS of these >translations that your references stems from. I am sorry but I do >not know how else to say it. Hi Petr, Greetings from Ganesan. Still, very obscure to me. I am NOT into mss. studies of Gv. Not in the near future. Your posts on manuscript studies have nothing to do with GaNDavyUha's kalyANamitra site, Mt. Potalaka of Avalokitezvara. I take my material from the works by well-known Sinologists/Tibetologists like G. Tucci, A. C. Soper, Chun-fang Yu, D. Snellgrove, J. Fontein and 10 others like them. They all say that Avalokitezvara and his abode, Mt. Potalaka occur as a separate kalyANamitra (and k. site). That is sufficient for my purposes. A. C. Soper has written in 1959 that earliest two Chinese translations of Gv. do not say Mt. Potalaka is in any island. Also, note BorobudUr sculptures depict a horse carriage from the preceding kalyANamitra site to Mt. Potalaka. This I believe is important because, BorobudUr scupltors (800 AD) skilled in depicting sea vessels do not depict boats or ships to Mt. Potalaka! Hence the pre-8th century material points to Mt. Potalaka in South India. Nandolal De, Nalinaksha Dutt, K. A. Nilakanta Sastri, ... say that Mt. Potalaka is in the Malaya mountains (Potikai). About 10 Western scholars have guessed that Potalaka is in South India. Daksinamurti and Avalokitezvara connections, both textual and sculptural, are brand new data. Regards, N. Ganesan PS: It is funny that people are willing to locate Mt. Potalaka at all places encircling Tamilnadu. eg., Tirupati, Nagarjunakonda, and now, in Ceylon. Reminds me someone said earlier in this century, Potala must be "pAtAla". Some other scholar refuted and said, "How can this be? it is an earthly paradise, so must be in Babylon" (cf. Mallmann's book on Avalokita). I think I have presented enough evidence that Mt. Potalaka, may be little remote to Buddhists, is Mt. Potikai/Potityil in Malaya mountains. It is an earthly paradise with many waterfalls, dams, a tropical evergreen rain forest. Mt. Potalaka has an analogy of Kailasam as understood by Karaikkal Ammai (5th century) and Saint Appar (7th century) of the Tamil Saiva canon. - NG ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 18 13:53:10 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 05:53:10 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046507.23782.12520021410740265868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought D.V.N. Sarma had earlier proved his penchant for illogical statements. Now, in his recent posts on the location of Potalaka, he has outdone himself by revealing his prejudice also. Regarding Potalaka, Sarma first said, "All the writers say that it is the abode of Tara and Avalokitesvara and not of Siva or Dakshinamurty. Any place which is not primarily a buddhist center is UNFIT to be considered as a candidate of Potala." Later, he also said, "I do not think the Buddhist authors concealed any Saivaite connections because most of the quotations that are being mentioned in support of the equivalence of Siva and Avalokitesvara are from them." I do not think he is capable of realizing that he is contradicting himself. Sarma further says, "A place which the most sacred to the Buddhists and which is the abode of the Mahayanic dieties Tara and Avalokitesvara must be primarily and originally a Buddhist center." He further expands on why Potiyil cannot be Potalaka by saying, "First of all it has to be a Buddhist center. Or else generations of Buddhists cannot be expected to consider it to be place of pilgrimage." But in his response to G. Samuel?s post, "Re: Potalaka", on 11/28/97, he is not averse to saying that Tirupati in southern Andhra Pradesh, which generations of vaiSNavites have considered to be a place of pilgrimage was a zaivite place originally. It looks as if it is too much to expect consistency in Sarma?s arguments. All over the world there are many sacred sites which have been taken over by religions different from the ones controlling it originally. The same site can also be held by different religions to be a holy site at the same time. The zaiva-Buddhist connection regarding Potalaka is validated by Hsuan-tsang?s description regarding the Deva -palace on Potalaka frequented by avalokitezvara and how he appears as mahezvara also. It is also well-known that Hsuan-tsang did not go south of Kanchi. But it is really immaterial that Hsuan-tsang did not go south of Kanchi. What is significant, however, is that he had written down what the prevailing views were regarding Potalaka in the seventh century (around A.D. 629 according to M. M. Deshpande?s paper in JAOS, 1997). Even if one concedes the possibility of that section being a later interpolation as Petr Mares suggests, the location of Potalaka suggested in Hsuan-tsang?s travelogue was already accepted by Chih-sheng of the late 7th or early 8th century as Prof. Yu has indicated. (Unless proved otherwise, one has to go along with statements of Chih Sheng as accepted by Profs. Yu and Goto.) So the interpolation, if any, must have occurred not a long time after Hsuan-tsang. This difference in time is inconsequential for the present discussion. The significance of avalokitezvara/mahezvara connection is even discussed by M. M. Deshpande in his paper. Sarma does not want to consider this zaivite-Buddhist connection. But this same Sarma was not averse to highlighting the zaivite connection in case of Tirupati. As a scholar, G. Samuel raised an important issue in his post when he said, "I have no idea whether the iconography of the image is consonant with its having been Avalokitesvara beforehand?" The striking iconographic similarity between dakSiNAmUrti and avalokitezvara is a valid concern with respect to Potalaka and that has been already discussed by N. Ganesan and S. Palaniappan. But, now Sarma discounts the significance of the zaivite-Buddhist connections for locating Potalaka. A scholar has a right to change his views as new information comes along. There is nothing wrong with that. But, he should be honest enough to admit it and give reasons for it. To deny that he ever held a different view is an act of foolishness. After all Indology archives are there for anybody to see. Sarma?s illogical basis for argumentation seems to be that if it is a site in the Tamil region, any amount of suporting evidence is not enough to identify it as Potalaka. If it falls outside the Tamil region, one can use the flimsiest and non-existent associations to identify it as Potalaka. For instance, if a person is described as going from origin A (Dhanyakataka) to destination B (Potala), and if no other geographical places (like towns) between the two are mentioned, then according to Sarma, A and B must be close to each other. This is utter nonsense. Another instance of his illogical position is that if Potalaka is Nagarjunakonda, one does not have to worry much about explaining the submerging of the path under the sea. If it is in Potiyil, this same Sarma turns around and demands that unless Potiyil can satisfactorily explain the submerged path, he cannot accept the location. This double standard is prejudice at its worst and is not the mark of a true scholar. Sarma also has an amazing defense. When confronted with a fact he cannot refute, he resorts to "What I have said is clear". Clear as mud, it is indeed. Instead of beating around the bush, he can simply say, "I simply hate Tamil and if Potalaka is said to have been in the Tamil region, I will not accept it whatever and however much supporting evidence is presented." To an impartial outsider, however, I think Ganesan has presented enough evidence to convincingly locate Potalaka in the Potiyil mountain. If Sarma wants to have his head in the sand, that is his problem. Sincerely Yours, Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 18 16:47:39 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 08:47:39 -0800 Subject: Paishaacika Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227046518.23782.17715985942513435352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I recently came across a reference to an astrological text said to be >written in 'Paishaacika' Sanskrit. Monier-Williams lists 'paishaaca' or >'pishaaca-bhaa.saa' as a term used in drama for 'a corrupt dialect or >gibberish; spoken by demons on the stage'. Does anyone have any information >on the origin of this term, and what grammatical and/or stylistic >characteristics it may imply? (Unless it simply means 'devilishly bad >Sanskrit', which in this case would seem a fair judgment...) Isn't there a tradition about Brhatkatha that first it was written in a Pishaaca-bhaa.saa? Tamil has Perungathai by Kongu VeLir. Is it a habit to call Dravidian languages as Paishaaci languages in Sanskrit? Regards, V. Iyer K. Zvelebil, Tamil literature, E. J. Brill, 1975, p.49 "However, in early historical times, Sanskrit text composed in the North of India show a rather unfriendly, even contemptuous, attitude towards the Dravidians, cf. MAn. X, 44. CarakasaMhitA, IndriyasthAna V, 28 mentions draviDa and Andraka in one breath with CaNDaalas, pizAcas, dogs, etc., ie., with beings one should not see in one's dreams since they are highly inauspicious. BANa, in the kAdambarI describes the draviDa dharmika very unfavorably (Kadambari edition, K. P. Parab, Bombay, 1921, p. 398-401) The different kAmazAstras usually deal with the women of the South in not too flattering terms". ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Thu Feb 18 09:55:46 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 09:55:46 +0000 Subject: Prof. Botto's email address Message-ID: <161227046498.23782.2196679333351043042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have received a request from Prof. Saroja Bhate for the email address of Prof. Oscar Botto. Can anyone provide it? John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Feb 18 15:23:30 1999 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 10:23:30 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990218135311.28965.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046511.23782.13390343934800390336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can this discussion be more respectful? Some of us do not know what the true story is, but I think a person can't be as bad as is depicted. Besides he is a member in this list as all are. No, I don't have personal knowledge of any of the personalities. I just wish a better articulation of the difference in view. Bijoy Misra On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Christopher Fernandez wrote: > I thought D.V.N. Sarma had earlier proved his penchant for illogical > statements. Now, in his recent posts > on the location of Potalaka, he has outdone himself by revealing his > prejudice also. > > Regarding Potalaka, Sarma first said, "All the writers say that it is > the > abode of Tara and Avalokitesvara and not of Siva or Dakshinamurty. Any > place which is not primarily a buddhist center is UNFIT to be > considered as a candidate of Potala." Later, he also said, "I do not > think the Buddhist authors concealed > any Saivaite connections because most of the quotations that are being > mentioned in support of the equivalence of Siva and Avalokitesvara are > from them." I do not think he is capable of realizing that he is > contradicting himself. > > Sarma further says, "A place which the most sacred to the Buddhists and > which is the abode of the > Mahayanic dieties Tara and Avalokitesvara must be primarily and > originally a Buddhist center." He further > expands on why Potiyil cannot be Potalaka by saying, "First of all it > has to be a Buddhist center. Or else > generations of Buddhists cannot be expected to consider it to be place > of pilgrimage." But in his response > to G. Samuel?s post, "Re: Potalaka", on 11/28/97, he is not averse to > saying that Tirupati in southern > Andhra Pradesh, which generations of vaiSNavites have considered to be a > place of pilgrimage was a > zaivite place originally. It looks as if it is too much to expect > consistency in Sarma?s arguments. All over > the world there are many sacred sites which have been taken over by > religions different from the ones > controlling it originally. The same site can also be held by different > religions to be a holy site at the same time. > > The zaiva-Buddhist connection regarding Potalaka is validated by > Hsuan-tsang?s description regarding the > Deva -palace on Potalaka frequented by avalokitezvara and how he appears > as mahezvara also. It is also > well-known that Hsuan-tsang did not go south of Kanchi. But it is really > immaterial that Hsuan-tsang did > not go south of Kanchi. What is significant, however, is that he had > written down what the prevailing views > were regarding Potalaka in the seventh century (around A.D. 629 > according to M. M. Deshpande?s paper in > JAOS, 1997). Even if one concedes the possibility of that section being > a later interpolation as Petr Mares > suggests, the location of Potalaka suggested in Hsuan-tsang?s > travelogue was already accepted by Chih-sheng of the late 7th or early > 8th century as Prof. Yu has indicated. (Unless proved otherwise, one has > to go > along with statements of Chih Sheng as accepted by Profs. Yu and Goto.) > So the interpolation, if any, must > have occurred not a long time after Hsuan-tsang. This difference in time > is inconsequential for the present discussion. > > The significance of avalokitezvara/mahezvara connection is even > discussed by M. M. Deshpande in his > paper. Sarma does not want to consider this zaivite-Buddhist connection. > But this same Sarma was not > averse to highlighting the zaivite connection in case of Tirupati. As a > scholar, G. Samuel raised an > important issue in his post when he said, "I have no idea whether the > iconography of the image is consonant with its having been > Avalokitesvara beforehand?" The striking iconographic similarity between > dakSiNAmUrti and avalokitezvara is a valid concern with respect to > Potalaka and that has been already discussed by N. Ganesan and S. > Palaniappan. > > But, now Sarma discounts the significance of the zaivite-Buddhist > connections for locating Potalaka. A > scholar has a right to change his views as new information comes along. > There is nothing wrong with that. > But, he should be honest enough to admit it and give reasons for it. To > deny that he ever held a different > view is an act of foolishness. After all Indology archives are there > for anybody to see. Sarma?s illogical > basis for argumentation seems to be that if it is a site in the Tamil > region, any amount of suporting evidence > is not enough to identify it as Potalaka. If it falls outside the Tamil > region, one can use the flimsiest and > non-existent associations to identify it as Potalaka. For instance, if a > person is described as going from > origin A (Dhanyakataka) to destination B (Potala), and if no other > geographical places (like towns) > between the two are mentioned, then according to Sarma, A and B must be > close to each other. This is utter > nonsense. Another instance of his illogical position is that if > Potalaka is Nagarjunakonda, one does not > have to worry much about explaining the submerging of the path under the > sea. If it is in Potiyil, this same > Sarma turns around and demands that unless Potiyil can satisfactorily > explain the submerged path, he > cannot accept the location. This double standard is prejudice at its > worst and is not the mark of a true scholar. > > Sarma also has an amazing defense. When confronted with a fact he cannot > refute, he resorts to "What I > have said is clear". Clear as mud, it is indeed. Instead of beating > around the bush, he can simply say, "I > simply hate Tamil and if Potalaka is said to have been in the Tamil > region, I will not accept it whatever and > however much supporting evidence is presented." To an impartial > outsider, however, I think Ganesan has > presented enough evidence to convincingly locate Potalaka in the Potiyil > mountain. If Sarma wants to have > his head in the sand, that is his problem. > > Sincerely Yours, > Chris > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From erpet at COMP.CZ Thu Feb 18 09:27:35 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 10:27:35 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990218005431.3857.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046495.23782.8931084660155008157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I am using the Avalokitezvara and his abode, Mt. Potalaka data > from Jan Fontein, The pilgrimage of Sudhana, A study of > GaNDavyUha illustrations in China, Japan and Java, > Mouton & Co., 1967 > > Fontein has done substantial work on Gv. text and its Chinese > translations. > > For example, he discusses Gv translations into > Chinese by: > 1) LokakSema or LokarakSa (168-188 AD) > 2) Sheng-chien (around 373-395 AD) > 3) Buddhabhadra (418-421 AD) > 4) DivAkara (680 AD) > 5) zikSAnanda (699 AD) > > Pl. refer his book for GaNDavyUha sUtra. Dear Naga Ganesan I feel I am probably not clear in what I want to say. I do not talk about the date when the GV was translated (at least not only) but about the age of actual PHYSICAL MANUSCRIPTS of these translations that your references stems from. I am sorry but I do not know how else to say it. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Feb 18 16:56:38 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 11:56:38 -0500 Subject: Paishaacika Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: <15470059307189@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227046516.23782.8018551072672796497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The term "paizaacii" is used in Prakrit grammars to refer to a specific form of Prakrit. The original B.rhatkathaa of Gu.naa.dhya was supposed to have been written in this form of Prakrit. While some features of the northwestern Prakrits seen in Ashokan inscriptions agree with some features of Paizaacii of the Prakrit grammarians, there is little real Paizacii material available. See: Introduction to Prakrit, by A.C. Woolner, pp. 67ff. A long passage in literary paizaacii is found in the Prakrit work Kuvalayamaalaa. For details see, F.B.J. Kuiper: "The Paizaacii Fragment of the Kuvalayamaalaa." Indo-Iranian Journal, Vol. 1, No. 3, 1957, pp. 229-40. Could you give more specific details of this work that is supposedly in Paizaacika Sanskrit? Best, Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Martin Gansten wrote: > Dear list members, > > I recently came across a reference to an astrological text said to be > written in 'Paishaacika' Sanskrit. Monier-Williams lists 'paishaaca' or > 'pishaaca-bhaa.saa' as a term used in drama for 'a corrupt dialect or > gibberish; spoken by demons on the stage'. Does anyone have any information > on the origin of this term, and what grammatical and/or stylistic > characteristics it may imply? (Unless it simply means 'devilishly bad > Sanskrit', which in this case would seem a fair judgment...) > > Regards, > Martin Gansten > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 18 20:10:53 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 12:10:53 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046529.23782.17472305699045609991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Petr Mares, On the Mount Potalaka info, the abode of Avalokitezvara from GaNDavyUhasUtra, I am relying on the Chinese translation done under the direction of a Khotanese monk named Shikshananda (652-710 AD). Exactly in the very same 7th century AD, Mt. Potalaka is located in Malaya country by the Buddhist monk, Chih-sheng (688-740 AD) as well as in the passage attributed to Hsuan Tsang (640 AD). There exists three bulky volumes in English (Translator: Thomas Cleary) of "The Flower ornament scripture, A translation of the Avatamsaka Sutra, Translated from Chinese by Thomas Cleary", Shambala publications, 1984. Vol. I, p.1 "Certainly one of the most colorful and dramatic rehearsals of Buddhist teachings, The Flower Ornament Scripture became one of the pillars of East Asian Buddhism. It was a source of some of the very first Buddhist literature to be introduced by China, where there eventually developed a major school of philosophy based on its teachings. [...] The work of translating from the Flower Ornament Scripture into Chinese apparently began in the second century AD, and continued for the better part of a thousand years. During this time more than thirty translations and retranslations of various books (of Av) and selections from the scripture were produced. [...] The first comprehensive translation of the Flower Ornament Scripture was done under the direction of an Indian monk named Buddhabhadra (359-429); the second, under the direction of a Khotanese monk named Shiksananda (652-710). The latter version, from which the present English version is ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ made, was based on a more complete text imported from Khotan at the request of the Empress of China; it is somewhat more than ten percent longer than Buddhabhadra's translation". Lokesh Chandra, Origin of Avalokitezvara, Kailash jl, 1974 gives similar details on Potalaka Mountain, Avalokita's home from Buddhabhadra (420 AD) version. Essentially I use English translations of Gv.: The section I am interested is evidently Potalaka mount and its Chief, Avalokita. From Buddhabhadra (5th century AD) as given in Lokesh Chandra and Shikshananda (7th century AD) as given in Thomas Cleary. Hope this clears the air where my data on Mt. Potalaka of Gv comes from. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Feb 18 17:49:53 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 12:49:53 -0500 Subject: unusual Indian manuscript Message-ID: <161227046520.23782.325898076916951934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> ========== I am researching an Indic Manuscript, made of bamboo, and need assistance in identifying it. The script is related to Devanagari, possibly Nandinagari. Scholars from all corners have been unable to identify the language. All that is known about it so far, including scholar comments, is listed at the web page below, courtesy of Columbia University. Any and all observations and comments about this mss are most welcome, and can be sent to this e-mail address, which can also be accessed through the web page. Please help us! Thank you. Web Page: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai/indicmss/palm/html My e-mail: planbinc at bitstream.net Jennifer Lack From jdehlavi at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 18 20:53:16 1999 From: jdehlavi at HOTMAIL.COM (Jigar Dehlavi) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 12:53:16 -0800 Subject: Khadira Message-ID: <161227046531.23782.1525938041696500104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK; > Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:39:45 +0000 >Received: from mailhub1.liv.ac.uk by listserv.liv.ac.uk (LSMTP for Windows NT > v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.FDA74EA0 at listserv.liv.ac.uk>; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 > 20:39:45 +0000 >Received: from korovev.stm.it ([195.62.33.1]) by mailhub1.liv.ac.uk with esmtp > (Exim 1.92 #1) for INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK id 10Blql-0003ng-00; > Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:39:39 +0000 >Received: from carlos (ppp04-14.dial-access.stm.it [195.62.37.206]) by > korovev.stm.it (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id VAA02543 for > ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:39:35 +0100 (ITA) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 >Message-ID: <01be5790$e1a5d000$ce253ec3 at carlos> >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:38:58 +0100 >Reply-To: Indology >Sender: Indology >From: Bruno Lo Turco >Subject: Khadira >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >Would anybody know why Indra is sometimes called Khadira? > >Bruno Lo Turco >Universita' di Roma 'La Sapienza' Most probably because Indra is associated with water and so is Khadir (or Khidr/Khwaja Khizr in Coomaraswamy's writings). He is a legendary immortal character (prophet) very well known in the Islamic tradition, particularly to sufis. By the way, would you please also share where is it exactly that Indra is called Khadira? Thanks. Arif Temple University ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 18 13:10:01 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 13:10:01 +0000 Subject: Prof. Botto's email address In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046502.23782.3164051276829010482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've just had the same, and I've sent the details to Saroja. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk London NW1 2BE, England. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Feb 18 23:17:53 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 13:17:53 -1000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990215102220.27337.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046541.23782.7916503808426889430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, U Hayavadana wrote: > i hope you were thinking, like me, of the new possibilities for fast > production of printed materials using computers, not of the already > existing composing by hand with lead letters on a stick. in practice we > see that a lot of computerised data entry in indian printing is specific > for a particular font scheme, dtp software etc., and if you want to use > the same material in another printer's shop, you may have to enter all > the text all over again. even though there's iscii, it isn't followed by > everybody. but in western languages, if you've entered text in some word > processor, say, wordperfect, you can easily extract that text (and > usually text formatting too) for use in m$ word etc., and you can use > the material in dtp software. the practical advantages are enormous. you > can save great amounts of time. and that helps in spreading literacy. The literacy rate in India, which was about 19% when the British went away, rose to about 52% in 1990-91. Last year (1998) I saw two newspaper reports that the literacy had crossed 60%. So, in recent years, the literacy rate in % has been increasing by about 1 point per year. I.e., in about 30 years at worst, the literacy rate should cross 90%. Also, primary school enrollment as a percentage of eligible population is over 90%. Since elementary school students are literate, the literacy rate should be over 90% when all of us oldsters die off. By either argument, it seems that the literacy rate will be over 90% 30 years from now (at worst). Actually it may happen sooner, because some large states like M.P. and A.P. have targeted full literacy by 2020. So the real question is: will starting a brand new controversy in India (about switching to rOman skript) accelerate the spread of literacy? Regards, Raja. PS: Of course, pointless controversies are valuable in themselves; India desperately needs more of them. From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Feb 18 12:27:06 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 13:27:06 +0100 Subject: Consciousness-RAmAnuja Message-ID: <161227046500.23782.7915760395975558019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Hebbar, Thank you again for referring me to Ramanuja's critique of Yogacara in SBh 2.2.27. I would like to know if you agree with me that his two main points are: 1. that the fact that everyone *experiences* consciousness as revealing objects proves the existence of these objects; 2. that the phenomenon of simultaneous perception (sahopalambha) of object and cognition presupposes a differentiation between the two. If I may continue to play the devil's advocate just a little longer, point #1 strikes me as apparently rather naive, and begging the question, *unless* prompted by an underlying 'esse = percipi' idea, which again would bring us back to some sort of idealism. And indeed Ramanuja's oft-quoted phrase 'yathaartham sarvavijnaanam' could be interpreted in that light. On the whole, I find that Ramanuja seems to attack the *unreality* of objects as fluctuations of 'mere consciousness' (jnaanamaatra), rather than their *dependence* on consciousness as such. In other words, what is rejected is not idealism, but rather the illusionism with which it is often associated. And perhaps a wholesale rejection of idealism would be difficult for any essentially monist system of thought. Regards, Martin Gansten From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 18 22:11:35 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 14:11:35 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046536.23782.7559119842998799493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am not following this thread very closely so I do not the points of >this discussions in its entirety. This is clear when we read your jottings. V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Feb 18 15:47:00 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 16:47:00 +0100 Subject: Paishaacika Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227046513.23782.17143584602056032387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I recently came across a reference to an astrological text said to be written in 'Paishaacika' Sanskrit. Monier-Williams lists 'paishaaca' or 'pishaaca-bhaa.saa' as a term used in drama for 'a corrupt dialect or gibberish; spoken by demons on the stage'. Does anyone have any information on the origin of this term, and what grammatical and/or stylistic characteristics it may imply? (Unless it simply means 'devilishly bad Sanskrit', which in this case would seem a fair judgment...) Regards, Martin Gansten From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Feb 18 18:26:04 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 19:26:04 +0100 Subject: Paishaacika Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227046522.23782.16019668873097640342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande wrote: >The term "paizaacii" is used in Prakrit grammars to refer to a specific >form of Prakrit. [...] Could you give more specific details of this >work that is supposedly in Paizaacika Sanskrit? And V. Iyer wrote: >Is it a habit to call Dravidian languages as Paishaaci languages >in Sanskrit? The text in question is a naa.diigrantha called Dhruvanaa.dii. It is definitely in Sanskrit (of sorts), not Prakrit, and of South Indian origin. I haven't the text with me at the moment, but I am working on another text very similar in style: Gurunaa.dii. Among the typical grammatical errors, the following may be mentioned: - irregular case endings and compound forms, such as 'karme' for 'karma.ni', or 'pitaa-vipat' for 'pit.r-vipat' - irregular (I think) words such as 'bhraatrii' for 'sister' - excessive and superfluous use of the endings -vat and (more rarely) -mat, in words such as 'bhaagya-vihiina-vaan' - erroneous gender inflections, such as 'sukhii' for 'sukhinii' or -vaan for -vatii. Does anyone recognize these patterns? Regards, Martin Gansten From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Feb 18 19:02:59 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 20:02:59 +0100 Subject: SV: Paishaacika Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227046526.23782.2624583455679017034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The text in question is a naa.diigrantha called Dhruvanaa.dii. It is > definitely in Sanskrit (of sorts), not Prakrit, and of South Indian origin. > I haven't the text with me at the moment, but I am working on another text > very similar in style: Gurunaa.dii. Among the typical grammatical errors, > the following may be mentioned: > - irregular case endings and compound forms, such as 'karme' for > 'karma.ni', or 'pitaa-vipat' for 'pit.r-vipat' > - irregular (I think) words such as 'bhraatrii' for 'sister' > - excessive and superfluous use of the endings -vat and (more > rarely) -mat, in words such as 'bhaagya-vihiina-vaan' > - erroneous gender inflections, such as 'sukhii' for 'sukhinii' or > -vaan for -vatii. I am not sure, but you may possibly find relevant info in the following book: Damsteegt, T. (1978). Epigraphical Hybrid Sanskrit. Leiden, E. J. Brill. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Feb 18 15:08:57 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 20:08:57 +0500 Subject: Permission to reprint AKR's essay Message-ID: <161227046509.23782.13902416336342415899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 15:28 17.02.99 -0500, Allen Thrasher wrote: > >Is AKR becoming a standard way to refer to Ramanujan? On the the >model of AKC for Ananada Coomaraswamy? It looks so. Also here in his native state of Karnataka (where such abbreviations are highly popular: GSS, URA, VC, MVC, JaCaNi, HaMaNa...) people in literary circles commonly refer to AKR as AKR. ;-) RZ From erpet at COMP.CZ Thu Feb 18 21:21:15 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 22:21:15 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990218201053.24794.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046534.23782.5712772072319954013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dear Petr Mares, > > On the Mount Potalaka info, the abode of Avalokitezvara > from GaNDavyUhasUtra, I am relying on the Chinese > translation done under the direction of a Khotanese > monk named Shikshananda (652-710 AD). Coincidently the same monk translated the lankavatara sutra. He was great scholar but he was sent back to Khotan before he finished the translation. > > Exactly in the very same 7th century AD, Mt. Potalaka > is located in Malaya country by the Buddhist monk, Chih-sheng > (688-740 AD) I what text? as well as in the passage attributed to > Hsuan Tsang (640 AD). > > There exists three bulky volumes in English (Translator: Thomas > Cleary) of "The Flower ornament scripture, A translation of > the Avatamsaka Sutra, Translated from Chinese by Thomas Cleary", > Shambala publications, 1984. His are ussually very free and populist translations. I do not think he ever go to the details such asa chacking manuscripts at least he never mention the sources of his work. As I remember he did not mention it in the Avatamsaka you cite. ( he probably used the Taisho version but he did not include the varients - there are many). > > Vol. I, p.1 > "Certainly one of the most colorful and dramatic rehearsals of > Buddhist teachings, The Flower Ornament Scripture became one of the > pillars of East Asian Buddhism. It was a source of some of the > very first Buddhist literature to be introduced by China, where > there eventually developed a major school of philosophy based on > its teachings. [...] > > The work of translating from the Flower Ornament Scripture > into Chinese apparently began in the second century AD, and > continued for the better part of a thousand years. During > this time more than thirty translations and retranslations > of various books (of Av) and selections from the scripture > were produced. [...] The first comprehensive translation of the > Flower Ornament Scripture was done under the direction of an > Indian monk named Buddhabhadra (359-429); the second, under > the direction of a Khotanese monk named Shiksananda (652-710). > The latter version, from which the present English version is > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > made, was based on a more complete text imported from Khotan > at the request of the Empress of China; it is somewhat more than > ten percent longer than Buddhabhadra's translation". > > Lokesh Chandra, Origin of Avalokitezvara, Kailash jl, 1974 > gives similar details on Potalaka Mountain, Avalokita's home > from Buddhabhadra (420 AD) version. Mr. Cleary is perfect example of putting the source into mist. He does not let you know the edition and manuscripts he was using (I doubt he used any) and you will not know are the different readings of various manuscripts from which some may not even contain the passage you are using as a base. I am not a specialist in this particular sutra. So I cannot tell you what manuscripts are there, how old they are and how do they differ from the received version. But if you want to claim that some sentence was written in the 7th century you cannot do it out of the received version that went through centuries of rewritings full of mistekes of the scrribes. Very often the commentary of some scribe was included into the original text when being rewriten again, so you may be using some 15 century commentary that had found its way into the main text after the original manuscripts were lost. These are just the cases I know to appear very often in the old chinese writing, I do not know anything particular about gandavyuha, you will have to contact the scholar of this text to learn whether the Potalaka part you study belongs to the early days layer of the Shikshananda version, that can only be proved through the manuscripts. As the Avatamsaka is one of the most (if not The Most popular sutra in Taiwan, there will certainly be many critical editions and scholarly works on its Shikshananda version. I hope I am less obscure now. I am not following this thread very closely so I do not the points of this discussions in its entirety. All I am trying to say here is that texts significantly change wit time and unles we have the manuscript of the apricular date we cannot claim the authenticity out of the received version. If that is out of the point in this particular discussion I apologize for stirring the water. > > Essentially I use English translations of Gv.: The section I > am interested is evidently Potalaka mount and its Chief, > Avalokita. From Buddhabhadra (5th century AD) as given in > Lokesh Chandra I do not know this particular work of Lokesh Chandra and Shikshananda (7th century AD) as given > in Thomas Cleary. but I know some of T. Cleary (including Avatamsaka) and there is no doubt his works are easy to read, they are often entertaining but they cannot in any case be called scholarly or critical. Hope this clears the air where my data > on Mt. Potalaka of Gv comes from. > Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM Fri Feb 19 03:27:04 1999 From: achandra at WNMAIL.WNDEV.ATT.COM (Ashish Chandra) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 22:27:04 -0500 Subject: Need information Message-ID: <161227046548.23782.6376221247359617460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Indologists I am looking for the following books. So far, I have been able to find one of them and the other is out of print. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Please respond to me. 1. Indian Philosophy, Vol I, Sri Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan. 2. Indian Philosophy, Vol II, Sri Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan. Thanks Ashish From nsalmond at CCS.CARLETON.CA Fri Feb 19 03:59:35 1999 From: nsalmond at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Noel Salmond) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 22:59:35 -0500 Subject: teleological argument Message-ID: <161227046550.23782.3099036147553500902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Esteemed Indologists Several nineteenth-century Hindu reformers invoke a form of the teleological argument; to wit, that knowledge of God can be derived from observation of the order and design of the universe. Where are there precedents for this in the Indian tradition? Is this a borrowing from European Deism? Thanks in advance for any pointers. Noel Salmond Carleton University Ottawa, Canada From erpet at COMP.CZ Thu Feb 18 22:36:43 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 23:36:43 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990218221136.19562.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046538.23782.13648029224824063284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > This is clear when we read your jottings. Dear Mr. Iyer Mr. Ganesan was asking me, what is REALLY written in original of Xuan Zang's geography (and other Chinese texts) about Malaya. I am just trying to explain to him the difficulty to make definite statement about words and their authenticity in these texts unless somebody specialize in one particular text. I am really sorry to interrupt with jottings your discussion and thread which I am not following . Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Feb 18 19:12:40 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 00:12:40 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046524.23782.12534193907757240046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:53 AM 2/18/99 PST, you wrote: >Regarding Potalaka, Sarma first said, "All the writers say that it is >the >abode of Tara and Avalokitesvara and not of Siva or Dakshinamurty. Any >place which is not primarily a buddhist center is UNFIT to be >considered as a candidate of Potala." Later, he also said, "I do not >think the Buddhist authors concealed >any Saivaite connections because most of the quotations that are being >mentioned in support of the equivalence of Siva and Avalokitesvara are >from them." I do not think he is capable of realizing that he is >contradicting himself. > >Sarma further says, "A place which the most sacred to the Buddhists and >which is the abode of the >Mahayanic dieties Tara and Avalokitesvara must be primarily and >originally a Buddhist center." He further >expands on why Potiyil cannot be Potalaka by saying, "First of all it >has to be a Buddhist center. Or else >generations of Buddhists cannot be expected to consider it to be place >of pilgrimage." Yes. I stand by the words I have written. The operative word in my argument is "primarily". You cannot take a place which is not originally a buddhist center and declare it to be Potala on the basis of a Siva temple because of the requirement that it should be an abode of Tara and Avalokitesvara. I do not think Buddhists visited Siva temples in India equating them to temples of Avalokitesvara. > But in his response >to G. Samuel's post, "Re: Potalaka", on 11/28/97, he is not averse to >saying that Tirupati in southern >Andhra Pradesh, which generations of vaiSNavites have considered to be a >place of pilgrimage was a >zaivite place originally. I have simply stated the various aspects of the problem of Lord Venkatesvara of Tirupati and I said it represents many an enigma. > The striking iconographic similarity between >dakSiNAmUrti and avalokitezvara is a valid concern with respect to >Potalaka and that has been already discussed by N. Ganesan and S. >Palaniappan. > Avalokitesvara is Sunyavadin. Daskshinamurty is Brahamavadin. Avalokitesvara is with Tara. Dakshinamurty is single. Avalokitesvara speaks. Dakshinamurty is of maunavyakhya (these are differences). I am not an expert in Iconography therefore I cannot say any thing about that aspect. > If it falls outside the Tamil >region, one can use the flimsiest and >non-existent associations to identify it as Potalaka. For instance, if a >person is described as going from >origin A (Dhanyakataka) to destination B (Potala), and if no other >geographical places (like towns) >between the two are mentioned, then according to Sarma, A and B must be >close to each other. This is utter >nonsense. In spite of your not liking it, it is a possibility and a strong one. That is what I said. > Another instance of his illogical position is that if >Potalaka is Nagarjunakonda, one does not >have to worry much about explaining the submerging of the path under the >sea. If it is in Potiyil, this same >Sarma turns around and demands that unless Potiyil can satisfactorily >explain the submerged path, he >cannot accept the location. This double standard is prejudice at its >worst and is not the mark of a true scholar. > There are no double standards. In case of Nagarjunakonda there is no chance of submergence of the path by sea because it is landlocked on all sides. In case Potala is taken to be Nagarjunakonda that possibility does not arise. But in case of Malaya the possibility is there and it has to be considered which will defeat the thesis and place Potala out of Malaya. In order avoid it you have to ignore a possible thing whereas what I ignored is an impossible thing. Talking about double standards, firstly the contention was that there is only one Potalaka. Then when it became clear that there were others in Tibet and China, we now accept that there are others but still stick to the idea that there is only one in India. Is there not a possibility that Huan Tsang (assuming that his hearsay is correct) and Tarantha are talking about different Potalas? > To an impartial >outsider, however, I think Ganesan has >presented enough evidence to convincingly locate Potalaka in the Potiyil >mountain. If Sarma wants to have >his head in the sand, that is his problem. All this vehemence is not necessary in case your case is convincingly presented. I can assure you that this vehemence will not force me to accept what I think is not convincing. I will very much appreciate if you can cease to attack people personally and confine yourself to the topic under discussion. In case of Prof.Krisnamurti also you attacked him for the things you thought he would have said. Do you think that all this is necessary? regards, sarma > >Sincerely Yours, >Chris > > > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From erpet at COMP.CZ Thu Feb 18 23:28:50 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 00:28:50 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990218131402.8843.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046543.23782.5294607660005274289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan I am just curious. Is your point only and exactly to prove that what is today called in South India Mt. Potikai/Potityil was at certain point of time called by certain people Mt. Potalaka? (By what people and at what time? Is the point of this argument to prove that Avalokiteshvara resided at a given time in what is in these days called Mt. Potikai?) I am sorry for another probably irrelevant question. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 19 12:52:22 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 04:52:22 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046559.23782.5376809729275123847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am just curious. Is your point only and exactly to prove that what >is today called in South India Mt. Potikai/Potityil was at certain >point of time called by certain people Mt. Potalaka? (By what >people and at what time? Is the point of this argument to prove that >Avalokiteshvara resided at a given time in what is in these days >called Mt. Potikai?) Yes. Well, sort of. But, not only today, in Tamil texts, it has been called Mt. Potikai/Potiyil for atleast 2000 years. Xuan Zang (or someone about his time) and Chih-sheng (688-740 AD) also call Mt. Potikai as Mt. Pu-ta-lo-chia. This was confirmed to me by Prof. Chun-fang Yu, a scholar on Potalaka cult. In your readings of Chinese translations of Mahayana works, please inform us if you come across any more of Mt. Potalaka locatings. Tell me if it is in Malaya country or mountains from Chinese sources. We already have Hsuan Tsang and Chih Sheng. A. C. Soper, L. Chandra, J. Fontein, authorities on early Chinese buddhism, have written that GaNDavyUha's one kalyANa mitra site is Mt. Potalaka where Avalokitezvara resides. After meeting Avalokitezvara at Mt. Potalaka, Sudhana goes onto meet Siva Mahadeva next. I take from Soper, Chandra, Fontein that this Gv data is in Chinese Gv. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 19 13:10:00 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 05:10:00 -0800 Subject: Paishaacika Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227046561.23782.8149961093948528110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: Martin Gansten >The text in question is a naa.diigrantha called Dhruvanaa.dii. It is >definitely in Sanskrit (of sorts), not Prakrit, and of South Indian >origin. I haven't the text with me at the moment, but I am working >on another text very similar in style: Gurunaa.dii. Mr. Gantsen, You may be interested to know a Britisher's experience with nADii astrology. It is a magazine piece. The author is a descendent of Robert Clive who established Br. rule first in Madras and then in Bengal. Peter Holt, Reading the leaves, p. 329-331, in Travelers' tales - India, O'Reilly press, 1995 Peter goes to Vaidheesvaran Koyil, ThanjAvUr district, TN. nADii is unique to TamilnAdu. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Feb 19 07:19:53 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 07:19:53 +0000 Subject: Khadira Message-ID: <161227046545.23782.3439604196981456541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Would anybody know why Indra is sometimes called Khadira? > >Bruno Lo Turco > >Universita' di Roma 'La Sapienza' > > Most probably because Indra is associated with water and so is Khadir > (or Khidr/Khwaja Khizr in Coomaraswamy's writings). He is a legendary > immortal character (prophet) very well known in the Islamic tradition, > particularly to sufis. > By the way, would you please also share where is it exactly that Indra > is called Khadira? Thanks. > Arif > Temple University I have elsewhere argued (Indian Alchemy: Soma in the Veda, Delhi, Munshiram Manoharlal--in press) that Rigveda is an allegorical document, expounding metallurgy, general and processing of electrum from a pyrite ore--ma_ks.ika_, in particular, as the bronze-age evolved. 'Indra' is relatable to 'indha' or fire-wood. The weapon of Indra is 'vajra', which is a gum-resin. Acacia Catechu (called khadira in RV. iii.53.19) is a hard wood, the resin of which is also used in ayurveda; it is also called khayar, terra japonica. The phrase, khadira-van.ika in Pali (Lalitavistara) is a clear indication of its commercial importance. It will be interesting to trace the early textual references which led to the interpretation of khadira as an attribute of Indra in lexicons. Regards, Kalyan ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Fri Feb 19 17:41:12 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 07:41:12 -1000 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990219125223.28340.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046571.23782.1790052638782339735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > [...deleted...] Xuan Zang > (or someone about his time) and Chih-sheng (688-740 AD) > also call Mt. Potikai as Mt. Pu-ta-lo-chia. Correction: they refer to some place as Mt. Pu-ta-lo-chia. Is that place definitely Mt. Potikai? You say so. But it's not obvious to everyone. > This was > confirmed to me by Prof. Chun-fang Yu, a scholar on > Potalaka cult. Are you saying that this professor affirmed that Mt. Potikai == Mt. Pu-ta-lo-chia? Exactly what did she/he say? Regards, Raja. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 19 17:19:22 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 09:19:22 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046570.23782.14832048515064497186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NG> There is Mt. Kailas in 'Saivaite mythology and mysticism; NG> This mythical Mt. Kailas, abode of 'Siva, is based on NG> a REAL Mount Kailas in the Himalaya mountains. NG> There is Mt. Potalaka in Buddhist mythology and mysticism; NG> This mythical Mt. Potalaka, abode of Avalokitezvara, is based on NG> a REAL Mount Potiyil/Potikai/Potiyam in the Malaya mountains. D. V. Narayana Sarma wrote: <<< This has been your assertion. By simply repeating it a number of times it does not get established. I feel that the evidence so far presented for the above assertion is not sufficient. You have been asking everybody for inscriptions, dates etc. Why don't you sit down and do a bit of stock-taking. On one side you write down what are the things that are required to identify Malaya as Potala/Potalaka. On the other side whether you have the evidence to convince others with that. >>> Unfortunately, your views/opinions are opposite of facts presented. "Identifying Malaya as Potala/Potalaka" was not done for the first time by anybody here in Indology list. It was done in SEVENTH CENTURY by Xuan Zang and Chih Sheng, two famous Buddhist monks of China. It was repeated in early 20th century by N. De, N. Dutt and K. A. N. Sastri. Regards V. Iyer Just curious: Have you done your homework to identify Potala(ka) as Tirupati or Nagarjunakonda or Ceylon or Amaravati? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 19 18:18:40 1999 From: hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM (U. Hayavadana) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 10:18:40 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046576.23782.13649352682903779087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 13:17 18.02.99 -1000, Raja wrote: >The literacy rate in India, >which was about 19% when the >British went away, rose to >about 52% in 1990-91.[...] >By either argument, it seems that >the literacy rate will be over 90% >30 years from now (at worst). >Actually it may happen sooner, >because some large states like >M.P. and A.P. have targeted >full literacy by 2020. "at worst". why aim at the worst? south canara and udupi districts in karnataka already have 100% literacy, right now. does that mean we should all immediately switch over to kannada? i would say the high literacy there is "in spite of" kannada script, and not "thanks to". there are other factors for the high literacy there. >So the real question is: will >starting a brand new controversy >in India (about switching to >rOman skript) accelerate the >spread of literacy? why are you refusing to see the point? we can do all sorts of things. for instance, we could decide that the whole of india should learn chinese. with enough effort (manpower, financing, training,...), we can make everyone learn that language, and its script and everything and make everybody literate. we'll import all the computer software that's needed for using chinese on all our computers and stuff. sure it's possible. tell the poorest of our poor that we'll guarantee him an annual income of rs. 100000 and a contessa car, and he'll gladly learn chinese or anything else we ask him to. but should we? the one script that already is used by significant numbers of people *all over india* is the roman script. anybody can see this plain fact. roman script does not have 52 letters, as i've already proven after your earlier complaint. this new complaint of yours doesn't get very far either because it's beside the point. if you're just sentimentally attached to our old scripts, that's okay. i like them too. but that doesn't make them efficient. i already explained last time what i mean. using roman is very simply the most efficient, also cost-efficient means of spreading literacy. why don't you want that? use the script of your own ancestors at home, in your private correspondence. but if we want to give literacy to illiterates, who have no script at all now, let's give them something efficient. if you want to give somebody an animal to ride on, then give him a horse instead of a donkey, if you have both to give. h ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Fri Feb 19 21:10:08 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 11:10:08 -1000 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990219202120.25194.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046589.23782.6735444985306273371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > N. S. Raja asks whether Prof. Yu agrees > with the Mount Potalaka identification as Mt. Potikai/Potiyil > in Malaya mountains. > > THE ANSWER IS YES. No offence intended, but could you please post, in their entirety, Prof. Yu's exact words, where she/he definitely identifies Mt. Potalaka as Mt. Potikai/Potiyil? Thanks in advance, Raja. From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK Fri Feb 19 11:27:27 1999 From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (Dermot Killingley) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 11:27:27 +0000 Subject: teleological argument In-Reply-To: <199902190405.XAA24465@alfred.ccs.carleton.ca> Message-ID: <161227046555.23782.13458213389081549262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The NyAya tradition proves the existence of God from the universe - not strictly from its design, but from the major premise that anything constructed must have a purpose. Sankara appears to use such an argument at the beginning of his commentary on the Brahma-SUtra/VedAnta-sUtra. But then (p.17 in Thibaut's translation) he expressly rejects the view that the existence of God can be inferred, insisting that God can only be known from the Veda. Dermot Killingley Dr Dermot Killingley (Reader in Hindu Studies) Department of Religious Studies, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Tel: (0191) 222 6730. Fax: (0191) 222 5185 From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Feb 19 16:37:00 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 11:37:00 -0500 Subject: Need information Message-ID: <161227046568.23782.12448905173912189394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Which vol. were you told was out of print? The online version of Books in Print seems to be inconsistent about whether both vols. are in print? Have you checked out the printed version and contacted the publishers? Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com) also seems to say at least one vol. is in print. Finally, if you search the following list of online rare and out of print bookfinders, you probably will be able to find a copy of the missing vol., maybe at less than the in print price: http://www.bibliofind.com/ http://www.bookfinder.com http://www2.alibris.com/cgi-bin/texis/bookstore http://www.abebooks.com/ http://www.antiqbook.com/index.html http://www.bibliocity.com/ http://www.yourbooks.com/ (This is a service of buying, selling, and exchanging books.) http://www.powells.portland.or.us/ (This is an huge actual bookstore.) Sincerely, Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Fri Feb 19 21:49:54 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 11:49:54 -1000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990219213053.16226.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046597.23782.2145171868554964714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Christopher Fernandez wrote: > Not only that. Roman script transcends linguistic and religious > boundary markers in India. It is common to the world and india. So is bread. > Those who control 90% of resources use Roman script anyway > in economic transactions. They educate their kids that way too. They also eat a lot more bread than the chappati- or idli-eating Indian hoi polloi. > Only advantage in retaining Indic scripts is in the imposition > of outdated imperialisms on nonwilling states/peoples and > and in impeding interstate and international trade/communications. Yup. We should all give up our idlis and eat bread. Fortified with iron and essential minerals, easy to mass-produce and store unlike idlis, it is simply the most efficient way to eliminate malnutrition in India. Eating idlis is outdated imperialism. Thanks, Chris, for that insight. Raja. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 19 20:14:32 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 12:14:32 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046582.23782.7799499247968904658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Further the two great centers of vajrayana buddhism are Nalanda >and Dhanyakataka (Amaravati) and most of the buddhists have >come to these places to learn about mahayana and vajrayana. The foremost teacher of vajrAyana is from the Malaya country where Mt. Potikai/Potalaka is. Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 08:16:55 PST I posted my reading from a book: "Vajrabodhi and his disciple, Amoghavajra are from the Potikai/Potalaka hills of the Malaya mountain range. They lived in the Muulavaasam monastery (near Potikai) in the 7th century AD. Went to Anuraadhapuram, Sri Lanka and were important teachers in Abhayagiri vihaara. [...] Vajrabodhi was living at Kanchi and at the request of Pallava King set sail off to China via Java. Want to read the biography of Vajrabodhi and Amoghavajra, the founders of Tantric Buddhism in China and Indonesia. References are highly appreciated." Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 19 20:21:20 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 12:21:20 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046585.23782.16076165862549811772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. S. Raja asks whether Prof. Yu agrees with the Mount Potalaka identification as Mt. Potikai/Potiyil in Malaya mountains. THE ANSWER IS YES. He can also read the identification of Mt. Potalaka located in Malaya country done 14 centuries ago. Hence, Mt. Potiyil/Potikai in Malaya mountains = Mt. Potalaka. Prof. Chun-fang Yu informed that the following passages identifying Mt. Pu-ta-lo-chia (Potalaka) as a Mountain in the Malaya mountains are authentic and belong to seventh century AD. Prof. Yu also added that Chih-Sheng, a Buddhist monk also locates Mt. Pu-ta-lo-chia (Potalaka) in the Malaya country. In a similar fashion to Xuan Zang. When I mentioned this seventh century Monk's name as Chin-sheng, Prof. Yu corrected it as Chih Sheng (688-740 AD). Chih Sheng lived during the T'ang era, acc. to Prof. Yu. ********************************************************************** XUAN ZANG'S Mt. Potalaka identification as a Mount in Malaya mountains ********************************************************************** Th. Watters, On Yuan Chwang's travels in India, 1905 2.229 says: "In the south of the mo-lo-kuta (malakUTa) country near the sea was mo-lo-ya (malaya) mountain, lofty cliffs and ridges and deep valleys and gullies, on which were sandal, camphor and other trees. To the east of this was the pu-ta-lo-chia (potalaka) mountain with steep narrow paths over its cliffs and gorges in irregular confusion; on the top was a lake of clear water, whence issues a river which on its wayto the sea, flowed twenty times round the mountain. By the side of the lake was a deva place frequented by kuan-tzu-tsai-p'usa (avalokitezvara). Devotees, risking life, brave water and mountain to see the P'usa, but only a few succeed in reaching the shrine. To the people at the foot of the mountain who pray for a sight of the P'usa, he appears sometimes as a pAzupata tIrthika, or mahezvara, and consoles the suppliant with his answer." S. Beal, Si-yu-ki, Buddhist records of the Western world, 1884 2.233 says: "To the east of the Malaya mountains is Mount Po-ta-lo-kia (Potalaka). The passes of this mountain are very dangerous; its sides are precipitous, and its valleys rugged. On the top of the mountain is a lake; its waters are clear as mirror. From a hollow proceeds a great river which encircles the mountain as it flows down twenty times and then enters the southern sea, By the side of the lake is a rock-palace of the Devas. Here Avalokitezvara in coming and going takes his abode. Those who strongly desire to see this Bodhisattva do not regard their lives, but, crossing the water (fording the streams), climb the mountain forgetful of its difficulties and dangers; Of those who make the attempt there are very few who reach the summit. But even of those who dwell below the mountain, if they earnestly pray and beg to behold the god, sometimes he appears as Tsz'-tsai-t'ien (Izvara deva), sometimes under the form of a yogi (a Paazupata); he addresses them with benevolent words and then they obtain their wishes according to their desires." Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From victor at NIAS.KU.DK Fri Feb 19 11:29:25 1999 From: victor at NIAS.KU.DK (Victor van Bijlert) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 12:29:25 +0100 Subject: teleological argument Message-ID: <161227046552.23782.10220377504842288747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My first reaction would be to agree with the idea that the teleological argument would have been derived from European Deism. We would need more information on precisely wh?ch nineteenth century reformers we are talking about. This would help in determining the source of the argument. Yours, Victor A. van Bijlert From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Fri Feb 19 22:47:38 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 12:47:38 -1000 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990219214602.29751.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046605.23782.10991424159134381120.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Raja wrote: > >> No offence intended, but could you >> please post, in their entirety, >> Prof. Yu's exact words, where she/he >> definitely identifies Mt. Potalaka >> as Mt. Potikai/Potiyil? >> Raja. > No offence intended. Will dig up from boxes, > & do it in a journal article. The selection ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > of words from she/he and time of release will ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > be my choice. Will you give me that option? I think it would only be fair to provide Prof. Yu's exact words, in their entirety, without editing. "Selection of words" will create doubt. Another crucial point: as you know, Avalokitesvara/Tara/Kuan Yin (almost more so than Buddha!) are absolutely central figures in "Pure Land" and Vajrayana Buddhism. Potalaka, as Avalokitesvara's abode, is approx. as important to a Buddhist as Mt. Kailasa to a Saivite, or Vaikuntam to a Vaishnavite. Therefore, if Buddhists considered Potikai/Potiyil to be Potalaka, there must be clear and unmistakable evidence that **Potikai/Potiyil** was an extremely important Buddhist center. Is there such evidence? Repeat: the evidence must show that **Potikai/Potiyil** (not merely the unidentified "Po-to-lo-chia") was a very important Buddhist site. It is welcome to be an important Saivite center as well. But it MUST be a very important BUDDHIST site. Best wishes, Raja. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 19 20:55:42 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 12:55:42 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046587.23782.11663788876751829690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It is definitely more logical to expect Potala to be >situated in a region which is a hot bed of vajrayana and abounds in >temples for Tara and Avalokitesvara (Dhanyakataka) than in Malaya >Mountains which do not have this tradition. This identification to > my mind is more logical than depending upon the similarities >between Siva and Avalokitesvara. In addition to Vajrabodhi, the vajrAyana teacher hailing from Malaya country, we have a tradition of Mahayana in and around the Malaya mountains. ManjusrimUlakalpa was discovered by T. Ganapati Sastri at Manalikkara maDam near the Malaya country. This is one of the very, very few Mahayana works to be discovered in India proper. A. Foucher has described an avalokitezvara that went to Gandhara from Muulavaasam monastery. It has the inscription "dakSiNApatho LokanAtha". At the village Terur, there is a huge Avalokitezvara Tara pair discovered recently. Beautiful sculpture - Pallava-Pandya era? Chola period? (I do not know). Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Fri Feb 19 12:13:12 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 13:13:12 +0100 Subject: Paishaacika Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227046557.23782.7065458640219395468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: Martin Gansten >The text in question is a naa.diigrantha called Dhruvanaa.dii. It is >definitely in Sanskrit (of sorts), not Prakrit, and of South Indian origin. >I haven't the text with me at the moment, but I am working on another text >very similar in style: Gurunaa.dii. Among the typical grammatical errors, >the following may be mentioned: > - irregular case endings and compound forms, such as 'karme' for >'karma.ni', or 'pitaa-vipat' for 'pit.r-vipat' > - irregular (I think) words such as 'bhraatrii' for 'sister' > - excessive and superfluous use of the endings -vat and (more >rarely) -mat, in words such as 'bhaagya-vihiina-vaan' > - erroneous gender inflections, such as 'sukhii' for 'sukhinii' or >-vaan for -vatii. Dear Martin, the irregularities you quote do seem to be prakritisms. All of them (with the exception of bhrAtrI) are mentioned in Franklin Edgerton's classic Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and Dictionary, Vol. I: Grammar. Yours, Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa assistant professor of metaphysics E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 19 21:30:53 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 13:30:53 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046591.23782.4397363840726320086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >why are you refusing to see the point? Well, that is his peculiar habit. Like someone said: "You can wake up a person if only he is *really* asleep". >the one script that already is used by significant numbers of people >*all over india* is the roman script. anybody can see this plain >fact. Not only that. Roman script transcends linguistic and religious boundary markers in India. It is common to the world and india. Those who control 90% of resources use Roman script anyway in economic transactions. They educate their kids that way too. Only advantage in retaining Indic scripts is in the imposition of outdated imperialisms on nonwilling states/peoples and and in impeding interstate and international trade/communications. >using roman is very simply the most efficient, also cost-efficient >means of spreading literacy. Regards, Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 19 21:46:02 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 13:46:02 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046595.23782.9755853722968312760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< No offence intended, but could you please post, in their entirety, Prof. Yu's exact words, where she/he definitely identifies Mt. Potalaka as Mt. Potikai/Potiyil? Thanks in advance, Raja. >>> No offence intended. Will dig up from boxes, & do it in a journal article. The selection of words from she/he and time of release will be my choice. Will you give me that option? Thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 19 22:08:57 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 14:08:57 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046599.23782.5036537734272208440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Ceylon has been mentioned as a place where Avalokitesvara >is there according to Lankavatarasutra.(lankAgiryAm) Are we sure Lanka in Lankavatara sUtra refers to Ceylon? I have not read this anywhere. Petr Mares thinks it is likely to be a South Indian text. What is the latest on the place of origin of Lankavatara? Does Lankavatara mention Avalokitezvara? V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Sat Feb 20 00:16:03 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 14:16:03 -1000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990219181842.20557.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046615.23782.16059383453152554098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, U. Hayavadana wrote: > At 13:17 18.02.99 -1000, Raja wrote: > > >By either argument, it seems that > >the literacy rate will be over 90% > >30 years from now (at worst). > > "at worst". why aim at the worst? I'm not aiming at anything at all. I'm merely providing some facts and informing you what will happen if the current statistical trend continues. It is for *you* to show that introducing a new "rOman skript" controversy in India will result in the accelerated spread of literacy. I don't have to prove it. You do. You are the one who linked skript with literacy. Don't just go on talking about fonts. India isn't a printing press. It's a real country with real people holding strong likes and dislikes. So talk about reality. > >So the real question is: will > >starting a brand new controversy > >in India (about switching to > >rOman skript) accelerate the > >spread of literacy? > > why are you refusing to see the point? You din't answer my question. Allegedly, this is all about literacy. So answer my question. I'll even repeat it for you: will starting a brand new controversy in India (about switching to rOman skript) accelerate the spread of literacy? [...deleted...] > using roman is very simply the most efficient, also cost-efficient means > of spreading literacy. why don't you want that? Now, now. You won't get very far by claiming that opposing rOman skript == opposing literacy. That's untrue and we both know it. > them something efficient. if you want to give somebody an animal to ride > on, then give him a horse instead of a donkey, if you have both to give. Personally, I believe everyone should switch to HTML (in rOman skript, of course). Regards, Raja. From kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Feb 19 19:28:29 1999 From: kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Kevin McGrath) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 14:28:29 -0500 Subject: Address: W.J. JOHNSON ? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990219235538.12777952@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227046580.23782.4192838578477576306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the e-address of Dr. W.J. Johnson who presently teaches at Cardiff in Wales? Thanks, Kevin McGrath. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 19 22:33:55 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 14:33:55 -0800 Subject: Malaya 5th. cent corrected Message-ID: <161227046601.23782.2768584455436095206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Mares, Greetings from S. Madhuresan. Does lankavatara sUtra mention Avalokitezvara? Thanks, S. Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From roheko at MERKUR.NET Fri Feb 19 14:29:43 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 15:29:43 +0100 Subject: Paishaacika Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227046563.23782.7117177495950446125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes I know the endings nom. sgl. -e and pitA for pitR in compositions very well from Prakrit-literature. See Pischel, Grammatik der Prakritsprachen Martin Gansten wrote: > Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > >The term "paizaacii" is used in Prakrit grammars to refer to a specific > >form of Prakrit. [...] Could you give more specific details of this > >work that is supposedly in Paizaacika Sanskrit? > > And V. Iyer wrote: > > >Is it a habit to call Dravidian languages as Paishaaci languages > >in Sanskrit? > > The text in question is a naa.diigrantha called Dhruvanaa.dii. It is > definitely in Sanskrit (of sorts), not Prakrit, and of South Indian origin. > I haven't the text with me at the moment, but I am working on another text > very similar in style: Gurunaa.dii. Among the typical grammatical errors, > the following may be mentioned: > - irregular case endings and compound forms, such as 'karme' for > 'karma.ni', or 'pitaa-vipat' for 'pit.r-vipat' > - irregular (I think) words such as 'bhraatrii' for 'sister' > - excessive and superfluous use of the endings -vat and (more > rarely) -mat, in words such as 'bhaagya-vihiina-vaan' > - erroneous gender inflections, such as 'sukhii' for 'sukhinii' or > -vaan for -vatii. > > Does anyone recognize these patterns? > > Regards, > Martin Gansten From mgansten at SBBS.SE Fri Feb 19 15:59:22 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 16:59:22 +0100 Subject: Paishaacika Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227046566.23782.2671225507871055411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ferenc, >the irregularities you quote do seem to be prakritisms. All of them (with >the exception of bhrAtrI) are mentioned in Franklin Edgerton's classic >Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and Dictionary, Vol. I: Grammar. That's interesting; thank you. As I said, the text as a whole is definitely a sort of (hybrid) Sanskrit, i.e., much closer to classical Sanskrit than to Prakrit -- but certainly the irregularities could be due to Prakrit influence. If such is the case, do you think that could help in dating the text at all? Regards, Martin Gansten From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 19 23:46:17 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 18:46:17 -0500 Subject: Locating a BORI critical edition Mahabharata Message-ID: <161227046612.23782.18205613448411028511.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1) I am trying to locate a BORI critical edition Mahabharata in the New York City area available for viewing by a member of the public. In particular the section containing the Bhagavad Gita i.e. S. K. Belvalkar, ed., bhISmaparvan (1) (fascicule 15) (Poona : Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, 1947) pp. 74 - 203. 2) I have located an entry in the Oriental collection of the New York Public Library for Srimadbhagavadgita /sanskrit text edited by S.K. Belvalkar; Hindi translation by V. S. Agrawala Imprint: Varanasi: Hindu Vishvavidyalaya Sanskrit Publications Board : sole distributor, Banaras Hindu University Press, 1962. Has anyone ever examined this text and is it identical to the text presented in the BORI edition? Thank You Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From garzilli at SHORE.NET Fri Feb 19 13:19:08 1999 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 18:49:08 +0530 Subject: Next World Sanskrit Conference in Turin, Italy - Apr 3 - 8,2000 Message-ID: <161227046574.23782.14266776602073461380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you Shikaripura Harihareswara. Our page which still hosts the conf. announc. and registration form is not down: http://www.asiatica.org Please click on: XI World Sanskrit Conference Enrica -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** Shikaripura Harihareswara wrote: > > Here is the answer for the question by Prof Mikael Aktor: > Sincerely, > -Harihareswara > =================== > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:04:22 -0400 > From: Enrica Garzilli > Subject: XI World Skt Conf > > Professor Oscar Botto (the President of the CESMEO) has just informed me > that the next world Sanskrit Conference will be held in Turin (Italy) on > April 3-8, 2000. > > For more info, please call CESMEO, +39+11+546 564 or fax +39+11+545 031 > or write to CESMEO, Via Cavour 17 - 10123 Torino (Italia) > -- > Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) > Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 > 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) > Editor-in-Chief, > Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies > htpp://www.asiatica.org/ > =========== > This answer is for the question posed as below: > > ========== > Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:51:15 +0100 > From: Mikael Aktor > Subject: XI Skt Conf > > Dear all, > > Do some of you know how to get in contact with the XI Sanskrit Conference > in Turin? Their home page is down it seems, and they have not yet > answered to registrations sent in December. > > Regards, > > Mikael Aktor, > Dept of the Study of Religion, > University of Aarhus, Denmark. > > ------------------------------ > ***************************************************************** From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat Feb 20 01:46:50 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 21:46:50 -0400 Subject: VijnAnavAda & Dvaita Message-ID: <161227046622.23782.10299155248083281069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Gantsen: Firstly, though the MAdhva tradition considers the ViShNupurANa as canonical, it lays greater emphasis on the BhAgavata PurANa. In fact, in the Sri-VaiShNava tradition when they speak of the "purANaratna" they mean the ViShNu PurANa; whereas in the MAdhva-VaiShNava tradition when they speak of the "purANaratna" they mean the BhAgavata PurANa. Madhva has written a commentary on the BhAgavata but not on the ViShNu PurANa. Therefore, it is hard to answer your question fully. Secondly, the MAdhva theory of error is known as AbhinavAnyathAkhyAti, whereas RAmAnuja's is known as YathArthakhyAti. The first is closer to the NyAya-VaisheShika theory of error (anyathAkhyAti) and the second closer to the SAnkhya-Yoga theory of error (sadasadkhyAti). I do not know if this answers your question at least somewhat. If you need clarification, please let me know. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat Feb 20 01:57:28 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 21:57:28 -0400 Subject: Consciousness-RAmAnuja Message-ID: <161227046624.23782.9671038275753498479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Gantsen: Yes, I agree with you on both counts. Also, the official RAmAnujite version vis-a-vis the nature of knowledge is: 1. Knowledge in its essence is formless (nirAkAra) 2. Knowledge is always with an objective content (saviShaya) 3. Knowledge is self-revealing (svayamprakAshaka). The PrabhAkara school of MImAmsA believes in the simultaneous triple revelation of knower, known and knowledge, thereby implying the equal reality of all three. Regards B.N.Hebbar From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 20 03:07:09 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 22:07:09 -0500 Subject: Malaya 5th. cent corrected Message-ID: <161227046631.23782.8756634368179620185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/19/99 5:29:52 PM Central Standard Time, erpet at COMP.CZ writes: > Do you know what kAtyAyana and what palce called CampA he > may mean? According to the tamil Buddhist epic, maNimEkalai, the patron-goddess in kAvirippUmpaTTin2am, the ancient capital of cOzar (anglicized as "Cholas") was called campApati. (The place is also called campApati) The patikam ('an executive summary') of the text seems to link it with jambu tree of the jambudvIpa. (I do not know if the patikam was authored by the same person who authored the main text. I have not looked into that.) But the name campApati which is similar to maturApati of maturai (also mentioned in the same epic) suggests that it is more likely to have been derived from campai/caNpu/campu meaning "elephant grass". campai also means "luxuriant growth". In other words campA could be a Sanskritized version of Tamil campai. In that case campA/campApati as a place can refer to the ancient cOzar capital. Of course, you also have campA, the capital of aGga country in north India. Regards S. Palaniappan From erpet at COMP.CZ Fri Feb 19 21:44:33 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 22:44:33 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990219202120.25194.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046593.23782.5454851130886390144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Prof. Yu also added that Chih-Sheng, a Buddhist monk > also locates Mt. Pu-ta-lo-chia (Potalaka) in the Malaya country. > In a similar fashion to Xuan Zang. > When I mentioned this seventh century Monk's name as > Chin-sheng, Prof. Yu corrected it as Chih Sheng (688-740 AD). > Chih Sheng lived during the T'ang era, acc. to Prof. Yu. Dear Mr. Ganesan Can you tell me please the name of work of Zhi Sheng (Chih Sheng) that mentions the Malaya country? (The Taisho number will be fine) Do you know what he says there exactly? Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sat Feb 20 06:53:27 1999 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 22:53:27 -0800 Subject: Ramayana conference at UBC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046633.23782.5789718758475062375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Dr. Bose, Did the announcement mention the site of the conference? I could not find a hall listing. Would you please let me know where on the UBC Campus it is being held? Thank you. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sat Feb 20 06:54:55 1999 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 22:54:55 -0800 Subject: Ramayana conference at UBC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046635.23782.4427654221386374911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please disregard my errant posting to the list. The message was intended to be personal. Mea culpa. A. Pandey From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sat Feb 20 02:59:45 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 22:59:45 -0400 Subject: Advaita-Chandran Message-ID: <161227046629.23782.17463791261996968998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "It?s true that there?re some Upanishads which hardly seem to endorse Advaitam. But again if one were to look at them collectively, Advaitam represents the most consistent view." The last sentence in the above citation is purely a personal subjective opinion. (B.N.Hebbar) "Apart from this we?ve to remember that Shankara lived at a time when Buddhism reigned supreme. The nAstikas were tearing apart theories of the astikas for logically inconsistency. So apart from the collective view, Advaitam also represents the best possible logical theory for AtmavAda." The real folks who defended AtmavAda in the heyday of Buddhism were the NyAya-VaisheShikas, MImAmsakas and the Jainas. Prof. C.D.Sharma, the staunch Advaitin like yourself himself makes a point of this. In fact, he gives great credit to KumArila Bhatta and goes to the extent of saying "Shankara merely beat a dead horse." (vide his Critical survey of Indian Philosophy) Advaita does not in any way represent the best logical theory. That again, is a personal subjective opinion. (BNH) "Ofcourse, we?ve RAmAnuja and VedAntadesika, two great philosophers, criticizing Advaitam. But to find faults with a theory, doesn?t in any way mean that one?s own theory is right. Logically, the simplest view is the easiest to defend. Advaitam, taking its stand on Brahman alone being real, is on better footing than other schools of VedAnta, who dig themselves into deeper pits by also endorsing the reality of the world. If one can find thousand faults with Advaitam, one can find ten times the number of faults with other theories. The other schools of VedAnta can consider themselves lucky that they didn?t exist at the time of VAsubandhu and NAgArjuna or DignAga and DharmakIrti!" Again, to say Shankara's Advaita is the simplest view is the understatement of the year. Even though none of the VaiShNava VedAntins had not come into existence, their "realistic" predecessors, i.e. the NyAya-VaisheShika and MImAmSA were indeed "lucky enough" to be the great Buddhist scholars. (BNH) >Each sticks to his school of thought with >great resourcefulness and tenacity. However, all leave the sabhA >in peace and friendship!!! At least, they all crack a few jokes and share from the same SNUFF box!!! I guess that qualifies for amicability!!! (BNH) I?m glad that such amity still exists, though I?ve heard things quite to the contrary. Anyway I don?t recognize any such warmth in accusations like "prachanna bauddha" or was it "prachanna mahAyAnika"! Yes, Shankara is a prachanna MahAyAnika. Anybody, who believes in two levels of reality like them certainly befits the nomenclature. The vast majority of the "Vedic" systems are realistic. Shankara is the odd man out!!! (BNH) "OK, with respect to the debating you witnessed, let me ask you what the basis of the debate was? Was it based on logic and reason or was it based on the shruti, interpreted with logic and reason? If it was on the former, as I said before, all other schools will be in trouble before Advaitam. If it?s on the latter, Advaitam can hold itself as well as the rest, if not better. But if both criterias were used - that?s the facts are supported by empirical experience as well as the shruti - Advaitam will be on a better footing than the rest." The rAdhyAnta sabhAs have been carried on by the traditional community of paNDits of the 3 VedAntic schools for centuries. In fact you can witness them at many places throughout South India. Sometimes, it takes place in front of the pIThAdhipatis of one of the three traditions. The debates are based on Shruti and reason. I am surprised that you haven't witnessed any! Advaita can certainly hold on as LONG as it plays its usual "highland or lowland" game of two levels of truth. It is intellectual cowardice. It is like Arjuna trying to shoot a BhIShma keeping the eunuch ShikhaNDin in front. Let me as you this: HOW CAN YOU SPEAK OF ONLY ONE REALITY AND IN THE SAME BREATH SPEAK OF TWO LEVELS OF TRUTH? At least, we realists may be digging our graves, but you idealists arrive body and brain dead in a coffin with strange theories!! The Advaita tradition is not all that united as you present it to be. To wit, the VivaraNa and the BhAmati schools cannot agree on the locus of avidyA. (BNH) But again, Advaitam doesn?t have any problem with the other shools of VedAnta. There?re all, right in the relative sense. But only in absolute terms are they falling short. There you go again. Logic is fine as long as it is going your way. The moment AdvaitahAni is pointed out the dormant MahAyAna two levels of truth comes out, i.e. relative reality and absolute reality. (BNH) You say you can?t accept that VijnAnavAda is prachanna VedAnta - but fail to give any reasons. I cannot because, Advaita begins at best with GauDapAda. You cannot just usurp the UpaniShads to your way of thinking. Afterall, you yourself agree that the UpaniShads do NOT present one consistent system of thought. (BNH) From erpet at COMP.CZ Fri Feb 19 22:38:53 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 23:38:53 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046603.23782.12635909768133561840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan Below is a short abstract from a recent (1987) article of a foremost Chinese Buddhist scholar prof. Ba1 Zhou4. For many years he is certainly one of the most knowledgable Chinese expert on Buddhism in Tang Dynasty. This is just a short abstract of his long article (20pages) on the cult of Guan Yin (Avalokiteshvara ) that appeared in Taiwanese Chung-Hwa Buddhist Journal (1987 .03 ). I thought it may be interesting as it mentions Potalaka in very recent article that is not available in English. Sincerely Petr Mares Abstract of the article called "Guan Yin and Asian Buddhism": Throughout East Asia Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva has been one of the most popular divinities in the Mahayana pantheon. He is known as Kuan yin in Chinese, and Kwannon-Sama in Japanese. We shall concentrate our discussion in the following chapters. 1.The origin of `Avalokitesvara` Bodhisattva Regarding the origin of Kual yin, the Sutra on the Prophecy concerning `Avalokitesvara` Bodhisattva indicates a combination of mythical and mysterious elements. It is stated that he was a spiritual contemporary of Sakyamuni Buddha and there was com- munication between the bodhisattvas of the Pure Land and the presiding Buddha of India. Further it is indicated that he would eventually succeed Amitabha Buddha. 2. `Avalokitesvara` in Buddhist philosophy The Mayopama- samadhi-Sutra, Lotus Sutra, and the Heart Sutra provide additional insight into the philosophical significance related to Kuan yin. These texts enunciate the Mahayanic virtues of perfect wisdom and compassion. Symbolically then, Kuan yin becomes the embodiment of these ideals. In his infinite wisdom and compassion he takes on a universal status transcending temporal and cultural boundaries. 3.The historical sources and sacred sanctuaries Based on the translations of Sanskrit works such as the Lotus Sutra and the Sukhavati-vvuha-Sutra, it is evident that from the second to the fifth centur- ies the worship of Kuan yin began to gain popularity. Later when Fa-hsien and Hsuan-tsang visited India it is recorded in their writings that many shrines and sanctuaries were dedicated to Kuan yin. In addition, during the sixth century the famous Mount P'u-t'o shan (Potala) in China became a famous spot of pilgrimage associated with Kuan yin. Similarly, the official residence of the Dalai Lama in Lhasa is also known as Potala in his honor. 4.The interaction of psychology and religion Generally humans are faced with numerous struggles and uncertainties such as natural, social, and biological dangers. During such crises, faith in the saving power of Kuan yin can give one the necessary strength and hope, thus making a suitable solution possible. It is in this interaction of faith and positive thinkinh that the interplay of psychological and religious concerns is achieved. 5.Kuan yin in Asian Art In India the bodhisattva was depicted in masculine form while feminine images are a distinctly Chinese creation. With the development of Tantric Buddhism around the fifth century the artistic presentation about him became more sophisticated. Eventually there evolved a system of seven Kuan yins: 1.Arya Kuan yin, 2.Elevenheadaed Kuan yin, 3.Kuan yin with a thousand arms, 4.Kuan yin with a lasso, 5.Kuan yin with a wishing gem and wheel, 6.Chundi Kuan yin, and 7.Horse-headed Kuan yin. The traditional human form, however, is usually preferred by the masses. 6.Kuan yin Folk Religion The formation of a folk religion centering on Kuan yin was dependent on the establishment of Buddhist beliefs and practices. Therefore, Kuan yin in feminine form cannot be dated earlier than the fifth or sixth century. A number of instances of the folk aspect of Kuan yin are discussed. These include Kuan yin with a fish basket, Tara in Tibet, and Kuan yin's revelation to Chujo Hime. Conclusion Our examination of the mythical, historical, religious, philosophical, psychological and artistic aspects of Kuan yin has indicated that he was a symbol of compassion and wisdom. Throughout the centuries he has captivated the minds of the masses, a trend which we believe will continue in the future. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Fri Feb 19 18:54:28 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 23:54:28 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046578.23782.5344003590677124605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:19 AM 2/19/99 PST, you wrote: > Just curious: > Have you done your homework to identify Potala(ka) as > Tirupati or Nagarjunakonda or Ceylon or Amaravati? > > I have never identified Potala as Tirupati. That is misquoting me. Neither I have identified it with Amaravati. I identified it with Nagarjunakonda because first of all it is a mahayanic buddhist center. Close to it there is a water fall that is called "etti potala". The word potala could have been used by bhikkus and laymen to distinguish it from the other mountains in the range. Further the two great centers vajrayana buddhism are Nalanda and Dhanyakataka (Amaravati) and most of the buddhists have come to these places to learn about mahayana and vajrayana. It is definitely more logical to expect Potala to be situated in a region which is a hot bed of vajrayana and abounds in temples for Tara and Avalokitesvara (Dhanyakataka) than in Malaya Mountains which do not have this tradition. This identification to my mind is more logical than depending upon the similarities between Siva and Avalokitesvara. As a matter of fact Dhanykataka was subsequently was known as Dharanikota because of its association with dhAraNis of vajrayana. Taranatha's History of Buddhism I feel supports this view. In my view there can be more than one Potala just we have many Kashis all over India. There is a tradition in Buddhists that at present Potala is situated in an island because the land route has got submerged in sea . Now if a Potala existed in the southern extreme of India it cannot be attached to the southern portion of India now. Therfore to claim that it is still in the Malaya mountains will not be correct. I mentioned the Abhayagiri of Ceylon because it is a sacred place for Buddhists and N.Ganesan mentioned that mahayana existed in Ceylon for sometime. The Adams bridge could be the submerged land route. Ceylon has been mentioned as a place where Avalokitesvara is there according to Lankavatarasutra.(lankAgiryAm) Mr.Iyer, all this is guess work. First of all, the documents on which we depend upon are unreliable and any equivocation will be stupidity. We can talk only of probabilities. There are hearsays, interpolations, and may be downright lies also. But I think a place of pilgrimage for generations of Buddhists should be basically a buddhist center is not too much to ask. For further information please read the postings. We have a sort of regime on the number and length of postings. regards, sarma. From erpet at COMP.CZ Fri Feb 19 22:57:29 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 23:57:29 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990219220857.23857.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046608.23782.6745466127077516184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Ceylon has been mentioned as a place where Avalokitesvara > >is there according to Lankavatarasutra.(lankAgiryAm) > > Are we sure Lanka in Lankavatara sUtra refers to Ceylon? > I have not read this anywhere. It is recent idea - of for example japanese scholar Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki in his english text "Studies in Lankavatara Sutra" . It is also mentioned in some recent Buddhist Chinese Dictionaries that the sutra's discourse happens on Adam's Peak in Ceylon. In recent layers of the sutra where many additions appear there is Bhagavat discoussion with Ravana. But that part is not in the Gunabhadra's Chinese translation from 420A.D. It is first time appearing in the Bodhiruci's translation about 100 years later. Bodhiruci was from North India, while Gunabhdra was from Central or South India so they probably used altogether different manuscripts in different languages as their sources. > > Does Lankavatara mention Avalokitezvara? Not, as far as I know. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Fri Feb 19 23:30:02 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 00:30:02 +0100 Subject: Malaya 5th. cent corrected In-Reply-To: <19990219223355.446.rocketmail@web305.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046610.23782.2837441808345901122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dear Mr. Mares, > > Greetings from S. Madhuresan. > > Does lankavatara sUtra mention Avalokitezvara? > > Thanks, > S. Madhuresan > Dear Mr. Madhuresan Scripture probably started as a collection of gathas that are today appended to the main text (Sanskrit) as the tenth chapter and they are called "sagAthakam" (The SagAthakam contains many names such as: VyAsa kAnada Kapila PAndavAh KauravAh RAma MauryAh NandAhGuptAh . Then the dialogues were probably formed to explain the matter of the gathas and the scripture was created as a discussuin between Bhagavat and Mahamati (the only Bodhisatva playing a part in the Gunabhadras translation from 420 A.D. The persons mentioned there are for example: /ShrImAlA DevI (Nanjio Sanskrit ed. p. 222.19 - 223.5 ) Vajragarbha (p.100.16 - 101.3) VajrapANi (p. 240.10) AmitAbha (p.283.4-7) NAgAhvaya (p. 286.12-15) Could these names possible tell something about the date or location of the original compilers? In one of the verse of Sagathakam the author states: mAtA ca me Vasumatih pitA viprah prajApatih kAtyAya (na) -sagotro ham nAmnA vai vijito Jinah CampAyAham samutpannah pitApi sapitAmahah Soma-gupteti nAmnAsan Soma-vam/Sa-samudbhavah Do you know what kAtyAyana and what palce called CampA he may mean? He also says: KAtyAyana-sagotro ham /SuddhAvAsAd vinihrsrtah de/Semi dharmasatvAnAm nirvAna puragAminam So from what I said it seems the sutra has probaly never been touched by people idolatrizing Avalokiteshvara neither in India nor in China or Khotan. I have not seen that name in any version I have seen. Sincerely Petr Mares I Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From phil.lepleux at WANADOO.FR Sat Feb 20 00:06:09 1999 From: phil.lepleux at WANADOO.FR (Philippe LEPLEUX) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 01:06:09 +0100 Subject: Buddhist classification system need Message-ID: <161227046617.23782.8944897670805051560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, We are on the way to open a Buddhist library within a French Buddhist Centre. We will take care of 2 main holdings, Tibetan one & western language one. We need to record the western holdings first but we are just at the begining. For this we need a Classification system Do you know if a classification system have been choosen for Buddhist or Asian Libraries ? I've found already a classification for tibetan holdings at Library of Michigan University: http://lib.umich.edu/libhome/Area.Programs/Tibetan/CIndex.html But it is not sure we will use it. I'm also interesting in information about Library Science and computer databases apply to Asian Libraries: cataloguing format (like USMARC or UNIMARC standard), fonts used (in the same library sortware), lexicon & thesaurus available... If you can help me or to tell me which people I can contact to get those information it will be very helpful. Thank you very much Best Regards, ---------------- Philippe LEPLEUX From erpet at COMP.CZ Sat Feb 20 00:34:11 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 01:34:11 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990219125223.28340.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046620.23782.8075324142415937154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > In your readings of Chinese translations of Mahayana works, > please inform us if you come across > any more of Mt. Potalaka locatings. Tell me if it is in > Malaya country or mountains from Chinese sources. > We already have Hsuan Tsang and Chih Sheng. Dear Mr. Ganesan Chih Sheng is today transcribed in China as Zhi Sheng and I only have been able to find one scholar of that name. His name was zhi4 sheng1 and he was compiler of the catalogues of Buddhist texts Tang Dynasty, in between them the most famous catalogue of Chinese Buddhists from Tang Dynasty the "Kai1Yuan2 Lu4". He did not left anything that I know: except his catalogues and encyclopedic work. I doubt this person could have first hand experience about the Malaya and its location. But I would be interested to check your reference if I can. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 20 10:37:05 1999 From: hayavadana at HOTMAIL.COM (U. Hayavadana) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 02:37:05 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046646.23782.8368436599980353599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:16 19.02.99 -1000, Raja wrote: >On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, U. Hayavadana wrote: > >> At 13:17 18.02.99 -1000, Raja wrote: >It is for *you* to show >that introducing a new "rOman skript" >controversy in India will result in >the accelerated spread of literacy. what a demagogue you are. i never said i wanted to introduce a controversy, and i don't need to prove a thing i never suggested. i want to implement more widely a script that *is already there, in all states of the union, and that is more widespread in its use than any other*. i already said so. please read what i write. >I don't have to prove it. You do. i already have given my arguments for *efficiency*. or do you mean by "proof": an experiment, with real people? why have the speakers of malay, swahili, javanese, turkish etc. etc. all dumped their old scripts in favour of roman? is that proof enough? or do you have another crazy reason why india is different? even idli-eaters use roman script, in case you have doubts about that: i've seen them do so. :-) >Don't just go on talking about fonts. >India isn't a printing press. It's >a real country with real people >holding strong likes and dislikes. >So talk about reality. literacy is linked with book production, with printing presses. this is reality. much more real than your sentimentality. >> why are you refusing to see the point? > >You din't answer my question. >Allegedly, this is all about >literacy. So answer my question. >I'll even repeat it for you: will >starting a brand new controversy >in India (about switching to >rOman skript) accelerate the >spread of literacy? *you* are starting a silly controversy, not me. i have already given my perfectly rational considerations why literacy will go through *accelerated growth* (*that* is my concern, and i have made that clear enough) by the adoption of roman script. you have systematically ignored my arguments and instead have brought in useless, irrelevant stuff -- about idli's and so on, good gracious. >[...deleted...] >> using roman is very simply the most efficient, also cost-efficient means >> of spreading literacy. why don't you want that? > >Now, now. You won't get very far >by claiming that >opposing rOman skript == opposing literacy. >That's untrue and we both know it. twisting my words again? i'm beginning to wonder whether you are really literate, if you can't read and understand my simple arguments. don't you have anything better to do than to pick up these silly quarrels, twisting my words and sabotaging a rational discussion (with talk about idli's etc.)? if you don't address the real issue (efficiency + increased spread of literacy), you'll drop out of it completely, whether i continue this debate or not. it's up to you. h ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 20 12:43:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 04:43:19 -0800 Subject: Malaya 5th. cent corrected Message-ID: <161227046649.23782.16851122139582958959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< it is more likely to have been derived from campai/caNpu/campu meaning "elephant grass". campai also means "luxuriant growth". In other words campA could be a Sanskritized version of Tamil campai. In that case campA/campApati as a place can refer to the ancient cOzar capital. >>> I think caNpai is the name of ciirkAzi. The tevaram saint Jaanacampantar born at ciirkAzi calls the town that way. N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 20 12:57:06 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 04:57:06 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046651.23782.13762807866265050124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >why have the speakers of malay, swahili, javanese, turkish etc. etc. >all dumped their old scripts in favour of roman? In Indonesia and Vietnam too, I think. What are the other countries using Roman apart from many European countries? On the one side, major european languages are written in roman script. On the other end of the spectrum, grammars of tribal languages with NO writing history are formulated and written in Roman script eg., Papua New Guinea or Native American languages. Hence, Roman script is truly universal and common to the World. In India, roman script will transcend all linguistic (IA and Dravidian) and religious limits (Hindu and Muslim). In addition, Roman will be a good improvement for international communications. The world is shrinking afterall. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 20 13:31:14 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 05:31:14 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046655.23782.17710934667772158173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Not in China at all!! And not for the near future at any case. Hope China doesn't go for English learning or Roman script. Good for India in exporting computer software and professionals :-) SM _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 20 13:54:16 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 05:54:16 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046659.23782.3515792850216428358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Raja, In a message dated 2/19/99 4:48:29 PM Central Standard Time, raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU you write: > Repeat: the evidence must show that > **Potikai/Potiyil** (not merely the > unidentified "Po-to-lo-chia") was a > very important Buddhist site. It > is welcome to be an important Saivite > center as well. But it MUST be a > very important BUDDHIST site. > I do not know if you are following the discussion. Please review Ganesan's posts on February 2 and 18. Evidence has been presented already that points to Hsuan-tsang and Chih-sheng believing that Potalaka was located in the Malaya mountains of the Pandya country. The Potalaka description of Hsuan-tsang matches the description of Potiyil. Obviously, they considered it an important Buddhist site at that time. (In any case, you cannot expect Hsuan-tsang to say that the Potalaka mountain is so many miles from Ambasamudram or Tenkasi railway station. :-)) As regards your insistence that it must be a Buddhist place, I don't think it has to be a Buddhist site *now*. Consider the Vaishnavite site of Alakarkoil near Madurai. Many may not know that it used to be one of the six important holy places of Lord Murugan. Venkatraman Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 20 14:28:10 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 06:28:10 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046661.23782.13141602963841270969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Petr Mares wrote: <<< a recent (1987) article of a foremost Chinese Buddhist scholar prof. Ba1 Zhou4. For many years he is certainly one of the most knowledgable Chinese expert on Buddhism in Tang Dynasty. [...] Abstract of the article called "Guan Yin and Asian Buddhism": In addition, during the sixth century the famous Mount P'u-t'o shan (Potala) in China became a famous spot of pilgrimage associated with Kuan yin. >>> Thanks for providing the Buddhist's abstract. But is it established that Mount P'u-t'o shan was popular in SIXTH centry?? My readings show it is later: 9th-10th century AD. Can you please check? Chun-fang Yu, P'u-t'o shan: Pilgrimage and the creation of the Chinese Potalaka in Pilgrims and Sacred sites in China, 1992, U. Calif. press >?From that article: the expression san-la tao-ch'ang or ssu-la ming-shan mentioning Mt. Wu-tai, Mt. Omei, Mt. Pu-to and Mt. Chiu-hua together are quite late. (after 1300 AD, these expressions come into use.) p. 191 "The emergence of P'u-t'o as a national and international pilgrimage center for the worship of Kuan-yin was a late and slow one, beginning in the tenth century, picking up momentum in the sixteenth, and reaching a peak only after the eighteenth. By contrast, the other"famous mountains" particularly Wu-t'ai and Omei were already well known during the T'ang (618-907), the same time when the cult of Kuan-yin also became popular." It appears many places were there for Kuan yin cult. P'u-t'o as Chinese Mt. Potalaka is significant only from and after 10th century AD. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 20 14:36:49 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 06:36:49 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046663.23782.10180266722202185637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Why is there a FOUR HUNDRED year difference in the dates of P'u-t'o becoming famous between Prof. Chun-fang Yu and the buddhist Ba1 Zhou4? Religionwallahs push back the dates usually. May be Petr Mares can explain. SM ---"N. Ganesan" wrote: > > Petr Mares wrote: > <<< > a recent (1987) article of a foremost > Chinese Buddhist scholar prof. Ba1 Zhou4. For many years he is > certainly one of the most knowledgable Chinese expert on Buddhism in > Tang Dynasty. [...] > > Abstract of the article called "Guan Yin and Asian Buddhism": > > In addition, during the sixth century the famous > Mount P'u-t'o shan (Potala) in China became a famous spot of > pilgrimage associated with Kuan yin. > >>> > > Thanks for providing the Buddhist's abstract. > > But is it established that Mount P'u-t'o shan was popular > in SIXTH centry?? > > My readings show it is later: 9th-10th century AD. > Can you please check? > > Chun-fang Yu, P'u-t'o shan: Pilgrimage and the creation of > the Chinese Potalaka > in Pilgrims and Sacred sites in China, 1992, U. Calif. press > > From that article: the expression san-la tao-ch'ang or > ssu-la ming-shan mentioning Mt. Wu-tai, Mt. Omei, > Mt. Pu-to and Mt. Chiu-hua together are quite late. (after 1300 AD, > these expressions come into use.) > > p. 191 > "The emergence of P'u-t'o as a national and international > pilgrimage center for the worship of Kuan-yin was a late and > slow one, beginning in the tenth century, picking up momentum > in the sixteenth, and reaching a peak only after the eighteenth. > By contrast, the other"famous mountains" particularly Wu-t'ai > and Omei were already well known during the T'ang (618-907), the > same time when the cult of Kuan-yin also became popular." > > It appears many places were there for Kuan yin cult. > P'u-t'o as Chinese Mt. Potalaka is significant only from > and after 10th century AD. > > Regards > N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Feb 20 07:45:55 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 07:45:55 +0000 Subject: Vedic Sarasvati Message-ID: <161227046627.23782.16562015415507499632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following recent publication (Jan. 1999) may be of interest: Vedic Sarasvati--Evolutionary History of a Lost River of Northwestern India, eds. B.P.Radhakrishna and S.S.Merh, Memoir 42 of the Geological Society of India, PB 1922, Gavipuram, P.O., Bangalore 560019; the work includes papers from a Seminar on Drainage Evolution of Northwestern India with particular reference to the Lost River Sarasvati held in Vadodara in December 1997, MS University of Baroda and also classical writings such as Oldham's and Wilhelmy's contributions. The consensus: vedic sarasvati river was the river flowing from Bandarpunch massif, Har-ki-dun valley, Himalayas to the Gulf of Khambat through Kurukshetra, Kalibangan, Ganweriwala, Dholavira (Kotda), Rojdi. I found the following citation from Sediyapu Krishna Bhat, Discovery of Facts: origin and the real meanings of Arya, Varna, Jati and Linga, Govinda Pai Samshodana Kendra, Udupi, 108 pp., 1996: 'Dravida' comes from dru-ila or dravila or forest dwellers (dru = tree)); 'arya' from verbal root 'r' which means 'to split' or 'to scratch'; arara in L. means 'ploughing'; the term 'aryan' appears to have applied to people who scratched or tilled the soil. Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 20 15:48:48 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 07:48:48 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046676.23782.18446029842402455066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > It shows how misinformed are you of the status of Chinese software. There > are more internet sites in China than in India and they produce more > software (mostly pirate) than any other country regardless of the script of > their native language. My observation is that Indian programmers far outnumber those from Mainland China. Atleast in the USA. I am well aware of the piracy in Taiwan and Mainland. That is mainly copying into CDs. What about software code writing? Do they exceed India? Magazines say Bangalore is the Silicon valley of Asia. SM _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 20 16:01:17 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 08:01:17 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046680.23782.11986105793133742375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Mares, Is there a manuscripts and "received" tradition on P'u t'o island from sixth century AD? You made us well aware of the problem in Xuan Zang passages. The manuscript and received tradition evidence. Please tell whether there is a manuscript or received tradition on P'u t'o island, especially from 6th to 9th centuries AD in China? Thanks, SM _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 20 16:13:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 08:13:19 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046685.23782.6320174663573371071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan asked: >Please tell whether there is a manuscript or received tradition >on P'u t'o island, especially from 6th to 9th centuries AD in China? I am very interested too! Alexander C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhism in China, 1959 says that the two earliest Chinese translations of GaNDavyUha sUtra DOES NOT PLACE Mt. Potalaka in ANY island. Chun-fang Yu's article talks of P'u t'o only from 10th century (gave the relevant sentences from Yu earlier). Soper and Yu are well-known authorities on Chinese Buddhism. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 20 16:31:25 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 08:31:25 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration Message-ID: <161227046689.23782.10633770964239610603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Chinese as I know I are not good at programming, surely not as > some Indians who are often on the peak at least in the > programming area I know about. Chinese software bussines is > basically just following, never leading. The whole culture is based > on enormously complicated script that is just a heavy bag in the > software development. It is great for caligraphy or poetry but not for > the information processing as we know it from the current IT. Petr Mares' post shows that China is NOT more advanced than India. That is what I said earlier. Chinese software is more advanced only in illegal, pirate CD productions. SM _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sat Feb 20 07:32:08 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 08:32:08 +0100 Subject: VijnAnavAda & Dvaita Message-ID: <161227046637.23782.5951638110227590936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Hebbar, Thank you. I was just speculating idly on the effects of not differentiating between the various meanings of jnaana. As for the Bhagavatapurana, it has some heavily idealist passages that must have made tough chewing for Madhva: iik.seta vibhramam ida.m manaso vilaasa.m, d.r.s.ta.m vina.s.tam atilolam *alaatacakram* (NB the Mahayana/Advaita metaphor!) / vijnaanam ekam urudheva vibhaati ... Regards, Martin Gansten From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Feb 20 13:46:16 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 08:46:16 -0500 Subject: Semester in India Opportunity (fwd) Message-ID: <161227046657.23782.708335264650869271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following announcment is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from SARAI. Please contact the program directly (as below) for any further information. Thank you. David Magier SARAI (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai) =================================================================== Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:41:32 -0600 From: philip-lutgendorf at uiowa.edu (Philip Lutgendorf) Subject: UI fall semester study abroad program in Mysore, India FALL SEMESTER IN MYSORE, INDIA This new program (begun in fall '98) is based in the former princely capital of Mysore on the southern Deccan Plateau, a moderate-sized city with a delightful year-round subtropical climate and flourishing silkweaving and sandalwood crafts industries, yet only 2 hours away from Bangalore, India's bustling high-technology center. Located in a former courtly residence set in a garden, the program offers students in-depth exposure to an ancient civilization and dynamic modern democracy, to a "third-world" nation that is also the world's tenth biggest industrial power. Special features of the program include: - no language requirement or prerequisite. All courses are taught in English, which is a common 2nd language throughout India. Language instruction (in Hindi, Kannada, or Sanskrit) is available as an elective. - a variety of courses including civilization and literature, science medicine and technology, and the changing status of women, with credit fully transferable toward your UI degree. - independent study and internship options during the final month of the semester. - guided tours to extraordinary historic sites (such as the imperial ghost-capital of Vijayanagar and the exquisite temples of Belur and Halebid) conducted by the former Director General of the Archaeological Survey of India. - costs kept as low as possible, with state unviersity students in mind (1999 Program fees of $3200 include housing, tuition and excursions, plus roughly $1500 airfare and $1000 for meals and personal expenses). For more information, visit the Mysore Program website: http://www.uiowa.edu/~uiabroad/india A printed brochure is also available. Contact Philip Carls at the University of Iowa Study Abroad Office, (319) 335-0353, or philip-carls at uiowa.edu From langstonrob at JUNO.COM Sat Feb 20 14:51:45 1999 From: langstonrob at JUNO.COM (robert langston) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 09:51:45 -0500 Subject: Eye worms? Message-ID: <161227046665.23782.2023878384949339316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Trichinosis? Trichinell spiralis may infest the brain or eyes from eating raw or poorly cooked meats. Symptoms include swelling , bleeding in the eyes. Not sure of the Indian treatment. American folk medicine prescribes pumpkin or fennel seed as purgatives. I have no idea if it works. Robert From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sat Feb 20 09:05:36 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 10:05:36 +0100 Subject: naa.dii (was: Paishaacika Sanskrit?) Message-ID: <161227046641.23782.15103229012445711684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >There are practioners in Bangalore too, and one of them is reported to me to >be an Andhra. Whether it is of Tamil _origin_ would be a different matter. Quite. And though the term naa.dii for this type of phenomenon seems to be restricted to South India, the phenomenon itself is present in the North as well, in the form of Bh.rgusa.mhitaa readings. Robert, and anyone else who may have information to contribute on this: as I'm doing my PhD thesis on naa.dii-shaastra, I would be very grateful for names, addresses, and other relevant data on naa.dii/Bh.rgu readers in Bangalore or indeed anywhere else, in India or abroad. (I know there are a few who regularly visit Europe and the US to do readings as well.) Thanks and regards, Martin Gansten From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Feb 20 15:36:36 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 10:36:36 -0500 Subject: Int'l Directory of S.A. Scholars Message-ID: <161227046672.23782.3772158952865468308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> INTERNATIONAL DIRECTORY OF SOUTH ASIA SCHOLARS *** NEWLY UPDATED / NEW WEB LOCATION *** The International Directory of South Asia Scholars (IDSAS) has been online for 5 years. It has just been given a shiny new web interface and has been fully updated and expanded. It contains entries for many hundreds of scholars of South Asian studies (including very many of you), providing details of name, address, institutional affiliation, phone, fax, email, web pages, and descriptions of work and sepcialized areas of interest, all searchable through the IDSAS search engine. It is now located on the web in a new url as part of SARAI (South Asia Resource Access on the Internet), which is at: http://www.columbia.edu.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai *** The new DIRECT url for the IDSAS itself is: http://www.columbia.edu.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai/directory.html If you have any links or bookmarks to the old address of the Directory (or know of someone else who does), please update these to the new location as above. Also, please visit the Directory and search your last name to see if your entry is included and fully up to date. If not, submit your new entry (or an updated version of your existing one) as indicated there, by sending the requested details directly to me. If you have not previously submitted an entry, please browse the Directory to see the standard format of the record contents, and then email me your information as indicated. Also, if you have the full information for a South Asia specialist who is not on the network or cannot submit his or her own entry, please do help us all by submitting an entry in his or her behalf (with his or her approval). IDSAS has been a very popular and useful mechanism for enhancing "human networking" in our field. Thank you for helping me keep it up-to-date and valuable for all of us. David Magier South Asia Librarian Columbia University magier at columbia.edu Editor of SARAI (and maintainer of IDSAS) From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Feb 20 15:55:08 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 10:55:08 -0500 Subject: URL correction - IDSAS Message-ID: <161227046678.23782.601391504518719061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to the sharp-eyed Christian Novetske for pointing out the error in the URLs given for the International Directory of South Asia Scholars (and also for SARAI): the ".edu" part was inadvertently repeated. The correct urls are: SARAI: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai INT'L DIRECTORY OF SOUTH ASIA SCHOLARS (IDSAS): http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai/directory.html I apologize for this error! David Magier From ramakris at EROLS.COM Sat Feb 20 16:17:30 1999 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 11:17:30 -0500 Subject: Advaita-Chandran Message-ID: <161227046687.23782.13421178037577876632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Balaji Hebbar wrote: >"It?s true that there?re some Upanishads which hardly seem to endorse >Advaitam. But again if one were to look at them collectively, Advaitam >represents the most consistent view." >The last sentence in the above citation is purely a personal >subjective opinion. (B.N.Hebbar) >I cannot because, Advaita begins at best with GauDapAda. You >cannot just usurp the UpaniShads to your way of thinking. >Afterall, you yourself agree that the UpaniShads do NOT present >one consistent system of thought. (BNH) It's well accepted among Indological scholars that though the upanishads do not present one consistent system of thought, sha.nkra's writings are closer to what they say. At least the main ones like the BRhadAraNyaka. Nakamura has written some penetrating analyses between Upanishadic thoughts, early and sha.nkara VedAnta. Similarly it is also accepted that Ramanuja's thoughts are closer to that of the brahma sUtra-s. Of course, there some dubious "upanishads" quoted by AnadatIrtha aka "Madhva" which lend some support to his theories. Whether "advaita" begins with gauDapAda are not is highly debatable. BratR^ihari affirms that vedAntins consider the world as unreal. See "From Early Vedanta to Kashmir Saivism", Natalia Isayeva, SUNY Press, 1995. He also accepts the saguNa, nirguNa distinction. Nevertheless, sha.nkara finds some faults with the sphoTa theory of BratR^ihari. Not to mention the paramArthasAra of bhagvAn seshha (not to be confused with the paramArthasAra of abhinavagupta which came much later), who Hacker thinks preceded sha.nkara (Padoux seems to accept this). So we can certainly say that there were philosophies, at least close to advaita as expounded by Gaudapada and sha.nkara, much before gauDapAda. As for prachAnna bauddha I wonder if you know of a certain Buddhist writer called bhavya. He disputes allegations that the mahAyAna theory was prachAnna vedAnta! He was before sha.nkara (~500s). Take a look at "The Vedanta Philosophy Described by Bhavya in his MadhyamakahRdaya", V.V.Gokhale, IIJ-2, 1958, pp.165-180. So bhAskara's writings which came much later do not prove that Buddhist theories were absorbed into advaita just at the time of sha.nkara or so. Certainly, there was much influence of the Buddhist school on advaita. Why, is that a problem? Rama PS: A small request. Could you indent the message you are replying to? That makes it easier to follow the thread. Thanks! From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sat Feb 20 11:20:40 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 12:20:40 +0100 Subject: Eye worms? Message-ID: <161227046647.23782.12886561679012712810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here's a question for our experts in ancient Indian medicine: in the 'paishaacika' text we have been discussing, I found the term netra-krimi = 'eye-worm'. Apparently it refers to some sort of disease. Would anyone know a modern western term for that disease? Regards, Martin Gansten From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Sat Feb 20 17:43:28 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 12:43:28 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <199902201518.QAA27996@vega.inec.cz> Message-ID: <161227046697.23782.7525596455424324560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Actually prof. Ba1 Zhou4 has been a buddhist monk He Anglicized his name as Pachow, and taught at the University of Iowa before retiring many years ago. I don't know if he is still alive. Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 20 09:00:39 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 14:00:39 +0500 Subject: naa.dii (was: Paishaacika Sanskrit?) Message-ID: <161227046639.23782.11365853788776568935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:10 19.02.99 PST, you wrote: > > Mr. Gantsen, > > [...] > > nADii is unique to TamilnAdu. > There are practioners in Bangalore too, and one of them is reported to me to be an Andhra. Whether it is of Tamil _origin_ would be a different matter. RZ From erpet at COMP.CZ Sat Feb 20 13:19:27 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 14:19:27 +0100 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990220125707.10820.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046653.23782.5056889442572981404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Hence, Roman script is truly universal and common to the > World. Not in China at all!! And not for the near future at any case. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Sat Feb 20 15:44:33 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 15:44:33 +0000 Subject: Eye worms? In-Reply-To: <19990220.090548.5487.1.langstonrob@juno.com> Message-ID: <161227046673.23782.13772512939151101566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 20 Feb 1999, robert langston wrote: > Trichinosis? Trichinell spiralis may infest the brain or eyes from eating > raw or poorly cooked meats. Symptoms include swelling , bleeding in the > eyes. Not sure of the Indian treatment. American folk medicine prescribes > pumpkin or fennel seed as purgatives. I have no idea if it works. Another possibility might be Guinea worm, though if your text comes from South India I can't be sure -- my knowledge of GW is from Rajasthan. You pick it up by drinking water containing a GW egg. As I remember, the life-cycle goes something like this: It's harmless to swallow an egg by itself, as you simply digest it. But if the egg has been swallowed by a hydra (microsopic aquatic creature), it will develop inside it; and if you swallow the hydra, the GW will transfer itself to you. (Moral: always strain your drinking water.) Once grown, the female worm bores through your body in an effort to find water in which to lay eggs (I realise that I have no idea how male Guinea worms pass their days.) She may arrive at the surface through a fleshy part, like the thigh, in which case you may be able to winch her slowly out on a stick. If you are less lucky, she may emerge through your eye -- I think I remember reports of people "seeing" worms before they reached the surface. The successful worms, however, come out at foot level, in order to lay their eggs in pools and step-wells where people go to bathe or draw water. Perhaps someone who knows more than I do could fill in the gaps and correct any blunders in the above! John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 20 11:03:30 1999 From: zydenbos at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 16:03:30 +0500 Subject: Address: W.J. JOHNSON ? Message-ID: <161227046643.23782.4883786062556362781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:28 19.02.99 -0500, Kevin McGrath wrote: >Does anyone have the e-address of Dr. W.J. Johnson who presently teaches >at Cardiff in Wales? JohnsonWJ at cardiff.ac.uk He sent it to me once by ordinary mail, but when I tried it repeatedly (more than a year ago) my messages bounced back. RZ From erpet at COMP.CZ Sat Feb 20 15:19:31 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 16:19:31 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990220143649.25034.rocketmail@send304.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046669.23782.18401200595397773030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Why is there a FOUR HUNDRED year difference in the dates of P'u-t'o > becoming famous between Prof. Chun-fang Yu and the buddhist Ba1 Zhou4? > Religionwallahs push back the dates usually. > > May be Petr Mares can explain. Dear Mr. Madhuresan Actually prof. Ba1 Zhou4 has been a buddhist monk in his youth but then he went to study in USA and now he either teaches in some University or he is retired already, but he most probably is not practising Buddhist. I would suggest Mr. Ganesan contacts him and asks (I can try to get his email from the Chinese mailing lists). He is known between American Buddhologist as well as Sinologist concerned with Chinese Buddhist culture. His studies were always aimed from the viewpoint of scholar without any religius sauce. I read his excellent study of Central Asian Buddshist scripture from the Tang Dynasty called "22 question on Mahayana" and it was perfectly founded research. Just for the reference (in case you find somebody who reads Chinese) the whole article is here: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-BJ001/01_03.htm and the English and Chinese abstracts are here: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/CBS- bin/eeach_record.pl/CBSBOOK919523754:002169 I did not read the whole article but both Chinese and English abstract talk about 6th cent. Sincerely Petr Mares PS: I can find more info on the Chinese Pu3 Tuo2 Shan1 but it will be just references without any deep study. > > SM > > > ---"N. Ganesan" wrote: > > > > Petr Mares wrote: > > <<< > > a recent (1987) article of a foremost > > Chinese Buddhist scholar prof. Ba1 Zhou4. For many years he is > > certainly one of the most knowledgable Chinese expert on Buddhism in > > Tang Dynasty. [...] > > > > Abstract of the article called "Guan Yin and Asian Buddhism": > > > > In addition, during the sixth century the famous > > Mount P'u-t'o shan (Potala) in China became a famous spot of > > pilgrimage associated with Kuan yin. > > >>> > > > > Thanks for providing the Buddhist's abstract. > > > > But is it established that Mount P'u-t'o shan was popular > > in SIXTH centry?? > > > > My readings show it is later: 9th-10th century AD. > > Can you please check? > > > > Chun-fang Yu, P'u-t'o shan: Pilgrimage and the creation of > > the Chinese Potalaka > > in Pilgrims and Sacred sites in China, 1992, U. Calif. press > > > > From that article: the expression san-la tao-ch'ang or > > ssu-la ming-shan mentioning Mt. Wu-tai, Mt. Omei, > > Mt. Pu-to and Mt. Chiu-hua together are quite late. (after 1300 AD, > > these expressions come into use.) > > > > p. 191 > > "The emergence of P'u-t'o as a national and international > > pilgrimage center for the worship of Kuan-yin was a late and > > slow one, beginning in the tenth century, picking up momentum > > in the sixteenth, and reaching a peak only after the eighteenth. > > By contrast, the other"famous mountains" particularly Wu-t'ai > > and Omei were already well known during the T'ang (618-907), the > > same time when the cult of Kuan-yin also became popular." > > > > It appears many places were there for Kuan yin cult. > > P'u-t'o as Chinese Mt. Potalaka is significant only from > > and after 10th century AD. > > > > Regards > > N. Ganesan > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Sat Feb 20 15:59:13 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 16:59:13 +0100 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990220154848.464.rocketmail@send304.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046682.23782.12663370102381841102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > My observation is that Indian programmers far outnumber those > from Mainland China. Atleast in the USA. > > I am well aware of the piracy in Taiwan and Mainland. That is > mainly copying into CDs. What about software code writing? Do they > exceed India? Magazines say Bangalore is the Silicon valley of Asia. > Chinese as I know I are not good at programming, surely not as some Indians who are often on the peak at least in the programming area I know about. Chinese software bussines is basically just following, never leading. The whole culture is based on enormously complicated script that is just a heavy bag in the software development. It is great for caligraphy or poetry but not for the information processing as we know it from the current IT. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Sat Feb 20 16:48:17 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 17:48:17 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990220160117.2195.rocketmail@web309.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046691.23782.259890116616929984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Madhuresan > > Is there a manuscripts and "received" tradition on P'u t'o island > from sixth century AD? You made us well aware of the problem in > Xuan Zang passages. The manuscript and received tradition evidence. I have been looking into British Library that contain thousands Buddhist manuscripts from Centarsl Asia discovered in 1907 by Aurel Stein in DunHuang and found there at least two copies of XuanZang geography. (Similiar collections are in Paris collected by Pelliot, Tokyo, Beijing and St. Petersburg) (look at http://idp.bl.uk) They were cerstainly not available at the time of the Waters and Beal's translating and they may be the reason why there is doubt about the authenticity of the 10-12th chapter of XuanZang XiYuJi currently. The other reason may be than some older manuscripts simply do not contain the 10-12 chapter (which speaks of South India). There is enourmous number of Manuscripts of Avatamsaka found in DunHuang that may differ from the received version. I can send the Stein numbers through which the manuscripts are refenced. I did not see them. > Please tell whether there is a manuscript or received tradition > on P'u t'o island, especially from 6th to 9th centuries AD in China? Basically I do not know who wrote about this island. There are tens of thousands of Buddhist manuscripts from 6th to 10th century stemming from the Central Asian Buddhist caves that may contain a lot. All are accesible now to scholars, but it will be a lifetime to find the right ones. There may be somebody working on it, but that is not me :-) I do not even know what texts in their received versions discuss Potalaka as the cult of Guan Yin (avalokiteshvara) is very far from what I study. It is a matter of the Chinese "Pure Land" school of whic I know nothing except the trivia. I only read one Chinese Buddhist travelogue written by Buddhist monk Yi4 Jing4 who traveled in Tang dynasty shortly after Xuan Zang to what he calles South Seas to study vinaya for more than 20 years. He wrote enourmous number of books there are 70 in Taisho collection, he wrote sanskrit chinese glossary two books that I know which are econcerned with Malaya and India. One is : nan2 hai3 ji4 gui1 zhuan4 (T2125) in 4 fasciculi "Chronicle mailed back from the southern seas" and the other xi1 yu4 qiu2 fa3 du4 gao1 seng1 zhuan4 in 2 fasciculi Which speaks of Chinese monks who went to Western Countries to request Dharma ( I do not know the details) but there is more than 20 chapters each about one monk - dharma teacher One of them was translated by Japanese called Takakusu into English, I did not read the translation and do not know the name. I believe he spent more than 15 years in Malaya. But his Malaya I think was the Malayan peninsula in today Malaysia. The other traveler that traveled to India much earlier was Fa3 Xian3 in the Eastern Jin4 dynasty and he left the travelogue in one fasciculi, he traveled as far as Ceylon and Indonesia but did not wrote much about the southern area in his Gao1 Seng1 Fa3Xian3 Juan2 (Fo2 Gu2 J4i) except the notice. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Sat Feb 20 17:05:13 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 18:05:13 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990220161320.2895.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046693.23782.8792223620252764657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Swaminathan Madhuresan asked: > >Please tell whether there is a manuscript or received tradition > >on P'u t'o island, especially from 6th to 9th centuries AD in China? Dear Mr. Ganesan The problem is: there may be dozens of texts talking about this island. Chinese Tripitaka has thousands of sutras, shastras, vinaya works, commentaries etc. starting from the 148 A.D. when the Parthian missionary AnShiGao arrived in Han Dynasty capital Loyang until now. I do not know what texts speak of this mountain but expect the number to be enormous (received texts as well as the manuscripts). > I am very interested too! > > Alexander C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhism in China, > 1959 says that the two earliest Chinese translations of GaNDavyUha > sUtra DOES NOT PLACE Mt. Potalaka in ANY island. > > Chun-fang Yu's article talks of P'u t'o only from > 10th century (gave the relevant sentences from Yu earlier). There may be mistake in the abstract, I have not read the article at all yet, just the abstract, so I do not know. But I suggest you contact prof. Ba1Zhou4, he wrote many books on Chinese Buddhism of Tang Dynasty, some in English. He is using the English name W. Pachow and he occasionaly teach in The Chung-Hwa Institute of Buddhist Studies 276, Kuang-Ming Rd., Peitou, Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. Telephone: (02)891-2550,892-6111 Fax: (02)895-7337 where this article and abstract was also published. Actually the Institute has many authorities on the Tang Dynasty Buddhism and many vvisiting professors such as Dr. Pachow. They may give you contacts on him as well as suggestion on whom else to contact on Taiwan. Actully the most knowladgeable scholars in Taiwan and PRC do not publish in English so only contacting them will yield in results. Please do not quote me on anything, I just specialize in Lankavatara and any other information is not backed by extensive study. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Sat Feb 20 17:30:29 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 18:30:29 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <199902201647.RAA08253@vega.inec.cz> Message-ID: <161227046695.23782.500130682057365527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The other > traveler that traveled to India much earlier was Fa3 Xian3 in the > Eastern Jin4 dynasty and he left the travelogue in one fasciculi, he > traveled as far as Ceylon and Indonesia but did not wrote much > about the southern area in his Gao1 Seng1 Fa3Xian3 Juan2 (Fo2 > Gu2 J4i) except the notice. I am sorry I mistyped the word it should be (Fo2 Guo2 Ji4) - Report about the Buddhist Kingdoms). I think there are many English translations. It is in Taisho T2085. Part of Yi Jing's xi1 yu4 qiu2 fa3 du4 gao1 seng1 zhuan4 was also translated by Beal in JRAS 1881 p 558-572 YiJing's nan2 hai3 ji4 gui1 zhuan4 speaks in one passage about the Simhala Island but otherwise mainly descibes the teachers of India and South Seas countries (including Malaya) which I suppose are Islands around today's Malayasia. Takakusu's work may help. Thera are other travelogues in the Chinese Tripitaka but I do not have the referencies handy. There are also many Chinese Buddhist manuscripts over 1000 years old from DunHuang that were not know before in any received version. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From erpet at COMP.CZ Sat Feb 20 18:32:17 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 19:32:17 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046700.23782.17834793097839058280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Please tell whether there is a manuscript or received tradition >on P'u t'o island, especially from 6th to 9th centuries AD in China? Dear Mr. Ganesan I hope the below biblio may give you some more clues on the PuTuoShan and Guan Yin (Avalokiteshavara) origin topic Tsukamoto, Zenryu; Hurvitz, Leon. A history of early Chinese Buddhism: from its introduction to the death of Hui-yuan. Translated by Leon Hurvitz. Tokyo, New York: Kodansha International, 1985. 1305p. Zurcher, Erik. The Buddhist conquest of China: the spread and adaptation of Buddhism in early medieval China. 2 volumes. 2nd edition, revised. Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1972/1959. Zurcher, Erik. "Eschatology and messianism in early Chinese Buddhism." In Idema, W.L., ed. Leyden studies in Sinology: papers presented at the conference held in celebration of the fiftieth anniversary of the Sinological Institute of Leyden University, December 8-12, 1980. Leyden: E.J. Brill, 1981. pp.34-56. Best, Jonathan W. "Tales of three Paekche monks who traveled afar in search of the law." Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies 51:1 (June 1991): 139-197. Tanaka, Kenneth K. The Dawn of Chinese Pure Land Buddhist Doctrine: Ching-ying Hui-yuan's Commentary on the Visualization Sutra. Albany: State University of New York Press, 1990. 304p. Fujieda, Akira. "The Tun-huang manuscripts." In: Essays on the Sources for Chinese History (edited by Donald D. Leslie, Colin Mackerras and Wang Gungwu, Canberra: Australian National University Press, 1973), pp. 120-8. Giles, Lionel. Descriptive catalogue of the Chinese manuscripts from Tunhuang in the British Museum. London: British Museum, 1957. Giles, Lionel. Six centuries of Tunhuang: a short account of the Stein collection of Chinese mss. in the British Museum. London: China Society, 1944. Grinstead, E.D. Title index to the descriptive catalogue of Chinese manuscripts from Tun-huang in the British Museum. London: Trustees of the British Museum, 1963. Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From mgansten at SBBS.SE Sat Feb 20 19:34:42 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 20:34:42 +0100 Subject: Eye worms? Message-ID: <161227046702.23782.323931992089807987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert and John: thanks very much for your suggestions! Does anyone know of classical Indian references to any of these rather nasty-sounding diseases? Regards, Martin Gansten From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sun Feb 21 00:48:44 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 20:48:44 -0400 Subject: naa.dii (was: Paishaacika Sanskrit?) Message-ID: <161227046713.23782.558378658715800425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Gantsen: I knew two nADI readers, one a SmArta brahmin bank official in Madras and a second also a SmArta brahmin in Mysore city. The latter was a BhRgu nADI reader. The former predicted pretty accurately everything about the future of the members of my paternal uncle's family. The Mysore city man used to operate out of a place called ShArdAvilAs Choultry in Mysore some 20 years ago. If you are interested, I could get you the name and address of the man in Madras. There are some readers in my home town of UDupi in KarnATaka. Let me know. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From erpet at COMP.CZ Sat Feb 20 20:27:19 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 21:27:19 +0100 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in romantransliteration In-Reply-To: <36CF14A0.859DD632@ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227046706.23782.6418580714328966003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Petr Mares wrote: > > > Chinese as I know I are not good at programming, surely not as > > some Indians who are often on the peak at least in the > > programming area I know about. Chinese software bussines is > > basically just following, never leading. The whole culture is based on > > enormously complicated script that is just a heavy bag in the software > > development. It is great for caligraphy or poetry but not for the > > information processing as we know it from the current IT. > > This suggests that the character of the script of a natural language has a > direct impact on whether or not the respective linguistic community > produces a significant amount of "advanced" computer programmers. Not necessary. Those were two things in the reply - not interconnected 1. No good programmers and no leading possitions in IT. 2. Difficoulty of computing industry due to enormous number of Characters and standards. There is for example more than 70 000 DIFFERENT characters in Chinese tripitaka. There is over 20.000 Different characters in Unicode. So the industry has to concentrate on dealing with many standards, BIG5, GB, HZ, Unicode etc in the firsthand. It is the main burden for the fast development. Another thing is that I pesronally believe that some cultures have more people able to write poetry and some country has more manpower that capture easy what is recursive coding. Sincerely Petr Mares To me, > this begs the question, as no computer programming languages I am aware of > are based on either Indic or Chinese characters anyway, so why should that > make a difference? (whether Chinese people have more or less difficulties > learning a programming language that is encoded in Roman script is an > altogether different question) > > Reasons for whether or not a particular country's computer industry is > "behind" or "leading" are perhaps more meaningfully sought in the > economic/political landscape of that country, the degree to which > computers are used (and for what purpose), government support for computer > development, employment opportunities, and so on. > > -- > birgit kellner > department for indian philosophy > hiroshima university From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Sat Feb 20 20:50:44 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 21:50:44 +0100 Subject: Paishaacika Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227046709.23782.16776649671859627889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: Martin Gansten >the irregularities could be due to Prakrit influence. If such >is the case, do you think that could help in dating the text at all? Dear Martin, I am afraid I cannot help you in this matter. The non-standard forms you mentioned already occur in Pali (kamme for kammAni only in Pl. Acc., as far as I know), and that means your text could be even that old (3rd cent BCE?). They _may_ point to the author or a copyist having an older Prakrit as a first language, and I think that would suggest (perhaps the first half of) the first millenium CE. But I really don't know anything about the typical irregularities of later texts. I feel a Tantra specialist would be the person you need. Yours, Ferenc Ruzsa From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Sun Feb 21 02:15:09 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 22:15:09 -0400 Subject: Advaita/Buddhism/UpaniShads/Madhva Message-ID: <161227046715.23782.8035943458546861240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "It's well accepted among Indological scholars that though the upanishads do not present one consistent system of thought, sha.nkra's writings are closer to what they say. At least the main ones like the BRhadAraNyaka. Nakamura has written some penetrating analyses between Upanishadic thoughts, early and sha.nkara VedAnta. Similarly it is also accepted that Ramanuja's thoughts are closer to that of the brahma sUtra-s. Of course, there some dubious "upanishads" quoted by AnadatIrtha aka "Madhva" which lend some support to his theories." Firstly, I agree that a prima facie reading of some of the Upanishads give an Advaitic bent and this is what most Indological scholars are refering to. But the problem is much deeper. The traditional paNDit community however talks about things like upakrama, upasamhAra etc. in the interpretation of texts. Very often a debate not only involves the VedAntic paNDits but also the tarka, vyAkarNa and alankAra paNDits who will have a sidebar argument on the interpretation of certain words and terms etc. It is this tradition that most modern Indological scholars overlook and merely take the prima facie interpretation. I have yet to see both these scholarships integrated to get the true picture. The Indological scholars (Western style academic training) have a keen sense of history, critical analysis of texts etc. The Traditional PaNDit community on the other hand (PAtHshAla, vidyapITha trained) have no sense of modern historical criticism of texts etc., but their knowledge of tarka, vyAkarNa etc. are superb. So this is the problem! Until the two cradles of scholarship are put together, this problem is going to remain. (BNH) As regards, Madhva, let me tell you this. He is the only major VedAntic AcArya, besides Shankara, to have written a detailed line-by-line commentary on the Prinipal UpaniShads. Even RAmAnuja did not do this!!! Madhva's commentaries provide a breath of fresh air in UpaniShadic thought. Many ignorant scholars dub Madhva's thought as being influenced by Christianity. ABSOLUTE NONESENSE!!! Let me give you an example: the doctrine of VAyu as the mediator between God and Man (is supposed to have a Christian touch) No! The evidence is there in the TaittirIyopaniShad I:1:1 "Namo brahmaNe namaste VAyo tvamevam pratyakSham brahmAsi" etc. (BNH) "As for prachAnna bauddha I wonder if you know of a certain Buddhist writer called bhavya. He disputes allegations that the mahAyAna theory was prachAnna vedAnta! He was before sha.nkara (~500s). Take a look at "The Vedanta Philosophy Described by Bhavya in his MadhyamakahRdaya", V.V.Gokhale, IIJ-2, 1958, pp.165-180. So bhAskara's writings which came much later do not prove that Buddhist theories were absorbed into advaita just at the time of sha.nkara or so. Certainly, there was much influence of the Buddhist school on advaita. Why, is that a problem?" I have absolutely no problem with this. In fact, though personally I am a theistic realist, I am quite respectful of both the Advaita as well as the Buddhist traditions. In fact, I am one of the executive committee members of the International VesAk festival in the Washington DC area. I have Buddhist monks of all three groups (TheravAda, MahAyAna and VajraYAna) as my personal friends. In fact, I am ALL for the revival of BUDDHISM in INDIA AGAIN!!! I think we Indians have lost a magnificent heritage. Its time to have it back! Also, I regulary used to visit the tarka tutor of the current junior ShankarAcArya at KAnci to discuss SriharSa and Citsukha. But if you were to ask me will you accept their teachings, I will say, NO! Nor will I impose my views on them! This is the beauty of our Indian tradition. It has been the source of our tolerance for centuries. Sure there were one or two black sheep in our religious history who were bigoted, but by and large the Indians can be proud of their heritage. Sorry for the sermon, but I had to make my position clear! Therefore, I accept that Shankara's interpretations of the Upanishads are a possibility but I will not accept it as the "official" and "best" possible interpretation. Therefore, Shankara is a pracchanna MahAyAnika but that doesn't mean to say I have have no respect for him. (BNH) From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 21 12:25:14 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 04:25:14 -0800 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in romantransliteration Message-ID: <161227046724.23782.13599552466304236945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Reasons for whether or not a particular country's computer industry is >"behind" or "leading" are perhaps more meaningfully sought in the >economic/political landscape of that country, the degree to which >computers are used (and for what purpose), government support for >computer development, employment opportunities, and so on. I think the GOI's guidance and role in India's computer industry is minimal. It was/is more of small companies and entrepreneurs. In this, the Indian immigrants to US choosing to work in Computers and their message to relatives in India played a major role. The contrast with China: Many graduate students from there flock to Graduate programs in aeronautics, military, etc., But, There is little alliance in military matters between US and India. Indians choosing computers is on their own, nothing to do with Govt. Of course, in terms of goods exports to US, China far exceeds India. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 21 12:45:05 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 04:45:05 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046741.23782.10861093901196709341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> ManjusrimUlakalpa was discovered by T. Ganapati Sastri >>at Manalikkara maDam near the Malaya country. This is one of >>the very, very few Mahayana works to be discovered in India proper. DVN Sarma writes: >If the discovery of manjusrImUlakalpa in kerala makes potiyil in >tamilnadu fit to be identified as Potalaka, FYI, the place of discovery of manjusrimulakalpa is in today's Tamilnadu. >>The foremost teacher of vajrAyana is from the Malaya country >>where Mt. Potikai/Potalaka is. DVN Sarma asks: >How do you know they are foremost teachers. Did you get any > additional material on them. Vajrabodhi from Malaya country/mountains went to Java and China to teach Vajrayana. He was sent by Pallava king, Narasimhavarman. This makes him a foremost teacher of Vajrayana. V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Sat Feb 20 20:01:36 1999 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (birgit kellner) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 05:01:36 +0900 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in romantransliteration Message-ID: <161227046704.23782.14794094385589237400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Petr Mares wrote: > Chinese as I know I are not good at programming, surely not as > some Indians who are often on the peak at least in the > programming area I know about. Chinese software bussines is > basically just following, never leading. The whole culture is based > on enormously complicated script that is just a heavy bag in the > software development. It is great for caligraphy or poetry but not for > the information processing as we know it from the current IT. This suggests that the character of the script of a natural language has a direct impact on whether or not the respective linguistic community produces a significant amount of "advanced" computer programmers. To me, this begs the question, as no computer programming languages I am aware of are based on either Indic or Chinese characters anyway, so why should that make a difference? (whether Chinese people have more or less difficulties learning a programming language that is encoded in Roman script is an altogether different question) Reasons for whether or not a particular country's computer industry is "behind" or "leading" are perhaps more meaningfully sought in the economic/political landscape of that country, the degree to which computers are used (and for what purpose), government support for computer development, employment opportunities, and so on. -- birgit kellner department for indian philosophy hiroshima university From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Feb 21 04:29:36 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 09:29:36 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990219205543.19126.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046717.23782.15149492659530598675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:55 PM 2/19/99 PST, you wrote: >>It is definitely more logical to expect Potala to be >>situated in a region which is a hot bed of vajrayana and abounds in >>temples for Tara and Avalokitesvara (Dhanyakataka) than in Malaya >>Mountains which do not have this tradition. This identification to >> my mind is more logical than depending upon the similarities >>between Siva and Avalokitesvara. > > In addition to Vajrabodhi, the vajrAyana teacher hailing from >Malaya country, we have a tradition of Mahayana in and around >the Malaya mountains. > > ManjusrimUlakalpa was discovered by T. Ganapati Sastri >at Manalikkara maDam near the Malaya country. This is one of >the very, very few Mahayana works to be discovered in India proper. > If the discovery of manjusrImUlakalpa in kerala makes potiyil in tamilnadu fit to be identified as Potalaka, how much more will be the presence of Manjusri himself in dhAnyakataka make Nagarjunakonda in Andhra more fit to be called Potalaka. I have come to understand that Gandavyuha mentions this. I do not think arguments like the above solve the problem. 1. One has to identify which mountain out of Malaya one wants to designate as Potiyil. 2. One has to show that there is archeological, textual evidence that Buddhist (mahAyana and vajrayana) existed there. 3. One has also to determine the earliest date from which the mountain is having Buddhist establishments. 4. We has to determine the earliest date from which it is referred to as Potalaka. On fri, 19 Feb you have written >The foremost teacher of vajrAyana is from the Malaya country >where Mt. Potikai/Potalaka is. How do you know they are foremost teachers. Did you get any additional material on them. In Taranatha's book there is only one sentence about Amoghvajra and none about Vajrabodhi. About Amoghvajra there is suuplementary note (81) describing his work. And according to Taranatha, Amoghavajra belongs to 11 th century A.D. How does this help you to establish Vajrayana in 8 th century. >Alexander C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhism in China, >1959 says that the two earliest Chinese translations of GaNDavyUha >sUtra DOES NOT PLACE Mt. Potalaka in ANY island. Does this not actually strengthen the case for Nagarjunakonda? regards, sarma. > A. Foucher has described an avalokitezvara that went to Gandhara >from Muulavaasam monastery. It has the inscription "dakSiNApatho >LokanAtha". FRom where did he go to mUlavAsam. regards, sarma. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Sun Feb 21 14:40:27 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 09:40:27 -0500 Subject: Conference Announcement Message-ID: <161227046744.23782.5948864015904460675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the CONFERENCE CALENDAR section of SARAI. Please contact posters directly for any further information. David Magier SARAI ================================================== CALL FOR PAPERS DGV-Conference in Heidelberg, 3.-7. October 1999 Anthropology and Neighbouring Disciplines Workshop: Western India and the Indian Ocean Helene Basu & Peter Fluegel The rapid social changes that were generated by the recent opening up of India to the world market, the increasing influence of a growing diaspora of non-resident Indians, and of cultural nationalist politics, pose fresh problems for South Asian Anthropology, which, until recently, treated South Asia as a civilizational unit in virtual isolation from the rest of the world. With the increasing awareness of the dynamics of imperialism and orientalism as two-way interactive processes, and the growing interest in the impact of international trade and migration on the already existing transregional networks, in the last decade, perspectives began to shift from the comparative study of civilizations, to the interaction between the local and the global. Within this context, the anthropological study of the regions of Western India, which are traditional sites of interaction between the Subcontinent and Africa, the Middle East and Europe, gains new relevance. Looking at Western India from the point of view of its historical integration in global networks of trade and migration generates new perspectives on the production of local culture in the context of Indian society. However, with notable exceptions, anthropological studies of processes of globalization and cultural interaction in South Asia are still missing. This workshop intends to bring together scholars working in various fields of Western India, especially history, social anthropology, and gender. We would like to invite contributions on a broad spectrum of topics that currently dominate academic discussions of Western India such as the split image of trade and kingship; connections between trading patterns (including the slave-trade) and religious affiliation; interdependencies between migration, pilgrimage, religious reform and religious nationalism; a reconsideration of caste, class and gender; issues of globalization, modernization and identity; and of the impact of modern technology and the media. In addition, we address scholars working on related subjects within the context of the Asian Diaspora in East Africa, the Middle East and other regions bordering the Indian Ocean and beyond. If you are interested to participate we would kindly request you to send your abstract till 25th of May 1999 by mail or e-mail. Looking forward to meeting you in Heidelberg. Please contact: Dr. Peter Fl|gel or Dr. Helene Basu Department of Anthropology Institut f|r Ethnologie University College London Freie Universitdt Berlin Gower Street Drosselweg 1-3 London WC1E 6BT D-14195 Berlin e-mail: pf at cix.co.uk e-mail:basu at zedat.fu-berlin.de From dasa at OZEMAIL.COM.AU Sat Feb 20 23:04:20 1999 From: dasa at OZEMAIL.COM.AU (Ramadas) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 10:04:20 +1100 Subject: Advaita-Chandran Message-ID: <161227046711.23782.5393491639115076299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian Date: Sunday, 21 February 1999 3:14 Subject: Re: Advaita-Chandran [deleted] It's well accepted among Indological scholars that though the upanishads do not present one consistent system of thought, sha.nkra's writings are closer to what they say. At least the main ones like the BRhadAraNyaka. Nakamura has written some penetrating analyses between Upanishadic thoughts, early and sha.nkara VedAnta. Similarly it is also accepted that Ramanuja's thoughts are closer to that of the brahma sUtra-s. Of course, there some dubious "upanishads" quoted by AnadatIrtha aka "Madhva" which lend some support to his theories. [deleted] Would you care to elabourate on the "dubious" Upanishads quoted by Anandatirtha. Are you saying that he did not use the mainstream Upanishads and only used minor "dubious" ones? Kindest regards Ramadas dasa at ozemail.com.au From erpet at COMP.CZ Sun Feb 21 09:45:16 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 10:45:16 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990221092936.0086a300@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227046719.23782.4613300224110781882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > ManjusrimUlakalpa was discovered by T. Ganapati Sastri > >at Manalikkara maDam near the Malaya country. This is one of > >the very, very few Mahayana works to be discovered in India proper. Dear Colleagues There is a strange coincidence that relates La.NkAvatAra and Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa. They are both very different from the bulk of MahAyAna sUtras and very special is their ending. La.NkAvatAra (in the Tibetan translation) ends with the word meaning yathAlabdam. It is very unussual for the MahAyAna work as I know and it is same ending as in Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa (Trivandrum Sanskrit Series, 1925). The only other sUtra I know of that end with this phrase is GaNdavyUha. Does anybody know more about the history of Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa? I heard that Nanjio used for his edition manuscript of La.NkAvatAra in Malayalam, does anybody know the details? Is there any manuscript of La.NkAvatAra in other South Indian scripts? Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From ramakris at EROLS.COM Sun Feb 21 17:52:23 1999 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 12:52:23 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046746.23782.13099693460076765212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > 1) Pl. look at the Avalokitezvara sitting cross-legged > in the Mt. Potalaka in BorobudUr GaNDavyUha panels > (800 AD). He resembles 'Siva very much. He wears > matted hair like 'Siva, holds rosary beads and a > kamaNdalam. Exactly like a great yogin. ('Siva mahadeva). > 3) There is a very long tradition in Tamil telling that > 'Siva taught Tamil grammar to Agastya, the Malayamuni. > In Sanskrit, there is a long traditon that 'Siva taught > grammar to Panini (Who inspired Panini, JAOS, 1997). > Note that the Sanskrit texts narrating this myth are from > South India (eg., Haradatta's padamaJjari, Nandikezvara > kArikA, ..) Tamil tradition also has Avalikitezvara teaching > Tamil to Agastya. Southern Sanskrit tradition talks of > Avalokitezvara inspiring Panini also. These Saivaite > and Buddhist claims point to DakSiNAmUrti, the teacher > par excellence, under the banyan tree. Classical Tamil texts > have this motif. MahabhArata XII talking of "Siva as the > Supreme teacher is ONLY from Southern recension (cf. de Jong). > Note also that dakSiNAmUrti sculpture is only > found in Tamilakam (Of course, there are Nolamba > dakSiNAmUrtis in Dharmapuri situated in Tamil Nadu). I have been trying to follow this thread, but I have to admit I have not had much success. There have been a number of posts and to confuse things there has been a parallel thread where two list members have devoted their time only to launch attacks on Sarma and Petr, instead of making any positive contributions. I have not been able to follow even Dr Ganesan's reasonings completely, much less Sarma or Petr. With this said, I'd like to offer some comments. I hope they'll be taken in the right spirit: The statement above (about Mahabharata) is a gross generalization. As a rule, I have problems with these kinds of statements. Is Mahabharata 12 (shAntiparvan, if I remember right), the only place where Siva is described as supreme teacher? Certainly not. It occurs for example in the Sivasahasranama (anushAsanaparvan, chapter 13?). Further, in the sauptikaparvan 10.17.24, Siva is called the universal guru and the "original one". See W.J.Johnson's translation of the Sauptikaparvan page 83. If you want to make a statement that Siva is mentioned as universal guru _only_ in the Southern recension, I think you'll have to take a look at the entire mahabhArata, find out where Siva is mentioned as guru, and read through the comments of the critical edition _yourself_ and then form conclusions of this type. Gross generalizations made from _secondary sources_, IMO, are invariably wrong. I suggest Prof. Tokunaga's machine readable version. It has been of great use in my researches. Note that the symbolism of daxiNAmUrti as in the Agamas is very sophisticated. There is a rich layer of symbolism involved in this imagery, suggesting that it was a later development or there was accretion over time. The latter is certainly a very good possibility as noted by Stella Kramrisch. See page 57, footnote 6 of "The Presence of Siva". I quote: "A very early example of Siva as vINAdhAra daxiNAmUrti can be found in C. Sivaramamurti, Nataraja in Art, Thought and Literature, 1976, p. 169, fig. 4, a terracota image of the **shuN^ga period, 2nd century BC**. A much later example, p. 169, fig. 95 on p. 243 from the early Cola period, illustrates **the image in its consolidated iconography**" (emphasis mine). Further, many of the symbolisms of daxiNAmUrti are found already in early Sanskrit sources, though not in one place. The later sophisticated symbolism could very well be a cut-and-paste job, though occurring over a period of time. Some references which come to mind at once: 1. Siva as guru, as I have noted above occurs in many places in the mahAbhArata. Bruce Long thinks the idea is as old as the R^ig Veda. The 2nd century BC sculpture also goes to prove this, even more conclusively. 2. The "principle" of Siva is to be taught with "silence". See atharvashira upanishhad, a very old upanishhad of the atharva veda. See atharvashiras 7,13. Consult Deussens translation of this, Vo 2, page 775. Even in other sources similar ideas can be found. In the brahmasUtra 3.2.18 it is said that quiescence is brahman. Sha.nkara quotes a story where a disciple bashhkalin goes to a guru bahva and he instructs him with "silence". He says that this story is from a upanishhad. This upanishhad is now lost. Since sha.nkara uses only the "early" upanishhads we may say that instruction through "silence" was a very old concept. 3. The imagery of the banyan tree is found in the chhAndogya, an early upanishhad (pre 400BC). The image of both Siva and avalokiteshvara as yogi, at least to my mind, does not prove much. First, Siva as a yogi occurs very early in the aitreya brAhmaNa among other places. Second, yoga was very popularin very early times and the Greek Megasthenes notes that Indian yogis sit in meditation for long periods. Imagery of Siva with matted hair is also quite old. So the similarity in image could be quite co-incidental. Further, the story you quote, that of a Buddhist first going to avalokiteshvara and then going to Siva-Maheshvara could very well be interpreted as an attempt to subordinate the already popular image of Siva as teacher to avalokiteshvara as teacher. More after I sort through this (long!) thread. If it's not much of a bother, may I request Dr Ganesan for a pre-print of his journal article? Rama From kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP Sun Feb 21 06:51:41 1999 From: kellner at IPC.HIROSHIMA-U.AC.JP (birgit kellner) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 15:51:41 +0900 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions inromantransliteration Message-ID: <161227046722.23782.4318510368663283653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Petr Mares wrote: > Birgit Kellner wrote: > > > > This suggests that the character of the script of a natural language has a > > direct impact on whether or not the respective linguistic community > > produces a significant amount of "advanced" computer programmers. > Not necessary. Those were two things in the reply - not > interconnected > 1. No good programmers and no leading possitions in IT. > > 2. Difficoulty of computing industry due to enormous number of > Characters and standards. There is for example more than 70 000 > DIFFERENT characters in Chinese tripitaka. There is over 20.000 > Different characters in Unicode. So the industry has to concentrate > on dealing with many standards, BIG5, GB, HZ, Unicode etc in the > firsthand. It is the main burden for the fast development. Thank you for the clarification; you meant that the encoding of the *target* natural language in which end-user products will be available poses problems, I (mis)understood you to refer to the *medium* (programming) language. >From your first message it appeared that you DO draw a connection, possibly a causal one, between (a) lack of computer programmers in the People's Republic of China and (b) complications regarding the encoding of the Chinese language, so that the latter would somehow be a reason for the former. I would disagree on this point. But if you don't assume such a connection, then that puts and end to this digression anyway. Regards, -- birgit kellner department for indian philosophy hiroshima university From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 21 22:01:35 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 17:01:35 -0500 Subject: Apparent sandhi irregularities in the Bhagavad Gita Message-ID: <161227046733.23782.8073055332612023273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm using Harard-Kyoto (HK) convention in the following. Verse 2.5 Van Buitenen and Purohit Swami in their editions of the Bhagavad Gita apply the sandhi rule changing final "n" to palatal nasal "J" before palatal sibilant "z". i.e. in verse 2.5 they have: "...mahAnubhAvAJ zreyo...". Radhakrishnan, S.R. Sastri, Warrier, Tapasyananda, Winthrop Sargeant do not change the final "n". i.e. they have "...mahAnubhAvAn zreyo...". I do not see anything in either Whitney's or Macdonell's grammars that say this sandhi rule is optional. Are the sandhi rules optional between lines in a pada? In the very next verse sandhi rules are applied to the ends of lines in a pada. Or is there some other reason for this variation? Verse 10.41 Purohit Swami, Warrier and Radhakrishnan read: "tejoMzasambhavan". i.e. no avagraha for the elided "a". The other editors cited above follow the rule of inserting the avagraha. i.e. they read: "tejo'MzasaMbhavan". Is their a grammatical or usage justification for their not having an avagraha to indicate the elided "a"? Many thanks, Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Feb 21 21:28:09 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 21:28:09 +0000 Subject: naa.dii (was: Paishaacika Sanskrit?) In-Reply-To: <09053624522294@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227046731.23782.12724456261845839646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Dear Mr Gansten, I noticed your correspondence about Naa.dii, and remembered that a good friend of mine, film director and former Sanskritist Reina Haig, has spent some time in Madras investigating these traditions. I have passed the recent INDOLOGY exchanges on to her, and here is her response. - DW] Dear Mr Gansten, I have twice visited the Sri Agastya Nadi, in New State Bank Colony, West Tambaram, Madras (near the airport), once in 1996, and once in 1998. I'd heard about the tradition nearly 20 years earlier whilst studying Sanskrit in Madras, and was intrigued. On my first visit to the Nadi in '96 I received several remarkable readings and engaged in acts of "atonement" (parihaara) suggested in the palm leaves. In '98 I returned with a cameraman and DVC camera to record the reading process. The position of observer led me to a series of startling new insights as to how the nadisastris operate. I was able to observe a number of clandestine techniques used to elicit information from clients before and during the formal consultation. This information was then fed back to them, apparently as found in the leaves. I have filmed this process in action. As in a good magic trick, it is not necessarily of any benefit to know how the trick is done, but the experience was interesting. Part of the naadii experience is being given a past-life story. I had myself been given a past-life story. This was evidently from a fairly limited stock, since I have now discovered several others who had been given the same story - the only differences being minor changes. I can't claim to have totally unravelled how it is all done, but certainly I have gained some unexpected insights. I was told that the Sri Agastyanadi collection of Tamil manuscripts was bought some 70 years ago in an auction held by the British of a library of palm leaf books found in a palace near Kumbakonum in Tamil Nadu. I have over an hour of Hi8 video recording of the nadi-reading process as I was able to observe it. Let me know if you have any further questions. I am not a member of the INDOLOGY list, so if you wish me to see your responses please copy them to me at . Regards, Reina Haig From erpet at COMP.CZ Sun Feb 21 20:33:49 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 21:33:49 +0100 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions inromantransliteration In-Reply-To: <36CFACFD.360BC1A0@ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227046728.23782.6324870914382769709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Thank you for the clarification; you meant that the encoding of the > *target* natural language in which end-user products will be available > poses problems, I (mis)understood you to refer to the *medium* > (programming) language. > > >From your first message it appeared that you DO draw a connection, > possibly a causal one, between (a) lack of computer programmers in the > People's Republic of China and (b) complications regarding the encoding of > the Chinese language, so that the latter would somehow be a reason for the > former. I would disagree on this point. But if you don't assume such a > connection, then that puts and end to this digression anyway. I am sorry I did not write clearly what I meant. As I see it now, my words may really suggest interconnection I did not meant. Those were just two thoughts I supposed to demarcate. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Feb 21 17:36:02 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 22:36:02 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <199902210944.KAA29187@vega.inec.cz> Message-ID: <161227046726.23782.17756725878694583266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:45 AM 2/21/99 +0100, Petr Mares wrote: >Dear Colleagues > >There is a strange coincidence that relates La.NkAvatAra and >Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa. They are both very different from the bulk of >MahAyAna sUtras and very special is their ending. La.NkAvatAra >(in the Tibetan translation) ends with the word meaning >yathAlabdam. It is very unussual for the MahAyAna work as I know >and it is same ending as in Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa (Trivandrum >Sanskrit Series, 1925). The only other sUtra I know of that end with >this phrase is GaNdavyUha. > >Does anybody know more about the history of >Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa? >I heard that Nanjio used for his edition manuscript of La.NkAvatAra >in Malayalam, does anybody know the details? >Is there any manuscript of La.NkAvatAra in other South Indian >scripts? Perhaps the word is "yathA labdhaM". It can be the comment by a scribe saying that he has copied whatever has come to his hands. This may imply that that the scribe does not believe either what ha has got is the full text or what he has got is the correct text. This just a guess I am making for whatever it is worth. >?From the later half of the 5th century to the first half of the sixth century there were Pallava coquests of earstwhile Buddhist regions of Andhra and they vandalised Buddhist sites like nAgArjunakoMDa. Perhaps they destroyed Buddhist literature also. In such a case such a comment by the scribe will be meaningful. regards, sarma. From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 22 04:19:55 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 23:19:55 -0500 Subject: Advaita-Chandran In-Reply-To: <01be5cec$83b3f9c0$a922accf@ramakris> Message-ID: <161227046735.23782.4799276634537590230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> one thing not to be missed in this discussions is all the three Acharyas maintained that the source and inspiration for their respective propositions viz. A,V.A,or D is upanishads and gita though the propositions are mutally contradictory. My other submission is that by the time Madhvacharya had propounded his Dvaitam,chritianity was well established in west coast.Was he influenced by Christianity to adopt such theistic approach contrary to the then prevailing theme of advaitam albeit with different approaches? Krish. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Feb 22 10:24:18 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 00:24:18 -1000 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990220103707.14154.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046752.23782.3309401724135792930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 20 Feb 1999, U. Hayavadana wrote: [...deleted...] > if you don't address the real issue (efficiency + > increased spread of literacy), you'll drop out of it completely, whether > i continue this debate or not. it's up to you. I'm *EAGER* to drop out of this discussion completely. The only reason I got into it in the first place was your assertion that rOman skript "will make literacy easier to achieve, and there are some people who don't want that." So far, you have not shown any such thing(s). Then there's our friend Chris who says that Indic scripts represent outdated imperialism. If the "I.Q." (no, not Idli Quotient) of this discussion sinks too low, the idlis will return. I say this sambarly. Else, count me out as of now. best rigArds, rAjA. PS: Looking at world history for the last 2500 years, I notice that change of script of a language is an extremely political event, almost always associated with one or more of the following: a. end of a civilization b. end of an empire c. foreign takeover d. absorption into a different civilization e. extensive foreign influence f. revolutionary change of government I don't expect any of the above to happen in India within the next 30 years. Therefore, I don't expect indik skripts to be abandoned in the next 30 years. By that time the country should be fully literate. eniwE, gud lak. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Feb 22 10:48:18 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 00:48:18 -1000 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <19990220135416.4382.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046757.23782.13138140882839621082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 20 Feb 1999, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > raja writes: > > > Repeat: the evidence must show that > > **Potikai/Potiyil** (not merely the > > unidentified "Po-to-lo-chia") was a > > very important Buddhist site. It > > is welcome to be an important Saivite > > center as well. But it MUST be a > > very important BUDDHIST site. > I do not know if you are following the discussion. Please review > Ganesan's posts on February 2 and 18. Evidence has been presented > already that points to Hsuan-tsang and Chih-sheng believing that > Potalaka was located in the Malaya mountains of the Pandya country. > The Potalaka description of Hsuan-tsang matches the description of > Potiyil. Obviously, they considered it an important Buddhist site > at that time. (In any case, you cannot expect Hsuan-tsang > to say that the Potalaka mountain is so many miles from Ambasamudram > or Tenkasi railway station. :-)) A site that Buddhists believed to be Potalaka (comparable in importance for Buddhists, to Kailasam or Vaikuntam for Hindus) is likely to have abundant archaeological/ literary/historical evidence that it was an important Buddhist site. In T.N., such evidence is available even for relatively less important Buddhist centers like Kanchipuram or Nagapattinam. My question: is there such evidence from Potiyil? Instead, if all we have is one comment from a foreign visitor, who never actually went within a few hundred miles of Potiyil, and who may or may not have been referring to Potiyil, that isn't substantial evidence, is it? We know where Potiyil is. We don't know where "Po-to-lo-chia" is (even assuming it is real and not mythical). Can someone provide archeaological/literary/ historical information about Potiyil? Was it a very important Buddhist mountain? Regards, Raja. From erpet at COMP.CZ Sun Feb 21 23:49:08 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 00:49:08 +0100 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990221223602.0086bd40@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227046738.23782.9554360148475217410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Perhaps the word is "yathA labdhaM". It can be the comment by a scribe > saying that he has copied whatever has come to his hands. This may imply > that that the scribe does not believe either what ha has got is the full > text or what he has got is the correct text. This just a guess I am making > for whatever it is worth. That is what I meant. All the other MahAyAna scriptures I have seen have somewhat uniform endings. These two are basically not ending (Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa and La.NkAvatAra). The word "yathA labdhaM" fits for them (as you suggest) but it is strange that the scribe did not add the standard ending as most scribes probably will ( I have not seen yathA labdhaM in any other MahAyAna sUtra). It is another case with GaNdavyUha which is ending in ussual way and is also complete and systematic as whole. La.NkAvatAra is basically compilation of fragments. Can someone give some comments or referece on Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa - its structure, content and textual history? > > >From the later half of the 5th century to the first half of the sixth > century there were Pallava coquests of earstwhile Buddhist regions of > Andhra and they vandalised Buddhist sites like nAgArjunakoMDa. Perhaps > they destroyed Buddhist literature also. In such a case such a comment by > the scribe will be meaningful. Are there any other mahAyAna manuscripts in south indian scripts? Is La.NkAvatAra mentioned in any old Tamil literature? From the non-buddhist Sanskrit literature I only have seen quotes from La.NkAvatAra in sarvadar/SanasaNgraha of mAdhavAcArya written in fourteen cent. (in the chapter on Bauddhadar/Sana). Does anybody know any other ancient non-Buddhist literature that quotes Ma~Nju/SrImUlakalpa or La.NkAvatAra? Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From sajeel at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 22 03:21:35 1999 From: sajeel at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Ravi Khanna) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 08:51:35 +0530 Subject: Vedic Sarasvati In-Reply-To: <19990220021555.17224.qmail@www0y.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227046749.23782.10625426950276530980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To support Dr. S Kalyanaraman I would like to cite the recent archaelogical find at Rakhigarhi, Haryana in India which dates back to 2400 BC and believed to be part of the Harappan civilization. The article dated Feb. 21st in Hindustan Times,New Delhi (magazine section) states the proximity of the flood plains ancient rivers Drishadvati and Saraswati. The work on this site is ongoing and appears to be very exciting. Ravi Khanna -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK] On Behalf Of S.Kalyanaraman Sent: Saturday, February 20, 1999 1:16 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Vedic Sarasvati The following recent publication (Jan. 1999) may be of interest: Vedic Sarasvati--Evolutionary History of a Lost River of Northwestern India, eds. B.P.Radhakrishna and S.S.Merh, Memoir 42 of the Geological Society of India, PB 1922, Gavipuram, P.O., Bangalore 560019; the work includes papers from a Seminar on Drainage Evolution of Northwestern India with particular reference to the Lost River Sarasvati held in Vadodara in December 1997, MS University of Baroda and also classical writings such as Oldham's and Wilhelmy's contributions. The consensus: vedic sarasvati river was the river flowing from Bandarpunch massif, Har-ki-dun valley, Himalayas to the Gulf of Khambat through Kurukshetra, Kalibangan, Ganweriwala, Dholavira (Kotda), Rojdi. I found the following citation from Sediyapu Krishna Bhat, Discovery of Facts: origin and the real meanings of Arya, Varna, Jati and Linga, Govinda Pai Samshodana Kendra, Udupi, 108 pp., 1996: 'Dravida' comes from dru-ila or dravila or forest dwellers (dru = tree)); 'arya' from verbal root 'r' which means 'to split' or 'to scratch'; arara in L. means 'ploughing'; the term 'aryan' appears to have applied to people who scratched or tilled the soil. Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Feb 22 15:49:39 1999 From: kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal R. Adhikary) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 09:49:39 -0600 Subject: Info On Zarthushtra Message-ID: <161227046761.23782.1385192846893815862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for the URL. I have linked it to your site. Please have a look. Thanks. Kamal >Namaste, > > Check out http://www.zarathushtra.com > >Thanks, > > >~sumedh > > >SNS writes: > >> Hello: >> >> I would appreciate any references regarding the family, relatives and >> contemporaries of Zarathushtra. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Regards, >> S.Subrahmanya >> *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* >> * ? * >> * * >> *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* From D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK Mon Feb 22 10:56:14 1999 From: D.H.Killingley at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK (Dermot Killingley) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 10:56:14 +0000 Subject: Apparent sandhi irregularities in the Bhagavad Gita In-Reply-To: <19990221220135.22214.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046754.23782.10642914738521942292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Harry, "...mahAnubhAvAJ zreyo...". is correct. > "...mahAnubhAvAn zreyo...". may, as you suggest, be influenced by the break between the first and second padas, though normal practice is to break sandhi only at the end of the second pada (and of course the fourth). In the case of editions in Roman script, such as Radhakrishnan's, it may be just a misprint or editor's slip. Anyway, the irregularity is insignificant, because anyone who knows sandhi can correct it unambiguously and even without noticing. > Verse 10.41 "tejoMzasambhavan". This is also insignificant, but for a different reason. There is considerable variation in practice with avagraha. It's treated as an aid to the reader rather than an integral part of the text, which explains why some people use it where word-initial "a" is elided after word-final "A". But in the interests of consistency, I'd advise you to keep the avagraha in the above line in your edition. Dermot Dr Dermot Killingley (Reader in Hindu Studies) Department of Religious Studies, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Tel: (0191) 222 6730. Fax: (0191) 222 5185 From mgansten at SBBS.SE Mon Feb 22 09:59:10 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 10:59:10 +0100 Subject: naa.dii (was: Paishaacika Sanskrit?) Message-ID: <161227046767.23782.8437232728250654346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik (if I may be so bold as to use first names), Thank you very much indeed for your help. I will contact your friend directly. Incidentally, would you have any suggestions for 'netra-krimi', save what has been mentioned already (Guinea worms/Trichinosis)? Ever seen the term before? Regards, Martin Gansten From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Feb 22 22:00:20 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 12:00:20 -1000 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <9130EFB0684CD211869E0020484016B512C2EA@satlmsgusr07.delta-air.com> Message-ID: <161227046775.23782.16321909268033150788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Chandrasekaran, Periannan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Narayan S. Raja [mailto:raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU] > > A site that Buddhists > > believed to be Potalaka > > (comparable in importance > > for Buddhists, to Kailasam or > > Vaikuntam for Hindus) is likely > > to have abundant archaeological/ > > literary/historical evidence > > that it was an important > > Buddhist site. > > > By the same token, > I suppose one would expect Mount Kailash to be > abundant with arcaheological evidence of > Saivaite activity...? Unlikely on the mountain itself (it is over 20,000 feet high). But all around it, certainly. For a description, take a look at: "Kailash Journal : Pilgrimage into the Himalayas" by Swami. Satchidananda. Also, remember, I din't say it had be be only archaeological evidence. It can be some combo of archaeological/literary/historical evidence. There is abundant archaeological/literary/historical evidence that Saivites consider Mt. Kailas to be a holy mountain. And even to this day, Hindus from India go on pilgrimage in Tibet to Mt. Kailas and Lake Manasarovar. Regards, Raja. From emstern at NNI.COM Mon Feb 22 18:42:08 1999 From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 13:42:08 -0500 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in romantransliteration In-Reply-To: <19990221122515.20587.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046773.23782.14934903346285261729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May I suggest that the discussion under this heading no longer bears any significant relationship to the nominal subject of this thread? Also, I think the discussion has wandered off from an Indological focus. Let us all please try to remember that this list is intended as an academic forum focusing on Indology. More and more, I find the list turning into a soapbox for talk about various political issues, including the present one. Script reform is not, I think, an Indological subject. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA telephone: 215 747 6204 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 22 23:09:50 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 15:09:50 -0800 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046777.23782.3193045515942626368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >For a description, take a look >at: "Kailash Journal : Pilgrimage >into the Himalayas" by Swami. Satchidananda. BTW, Swami Satchidananda is from my village. N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 22 23:13:19 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 15:13:19 -0800 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) Message-ID: <161227046779.23782.4626051513298359253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Petr Mares wrote: >Can you tell me please the name of work of Zhi Sheng (Chih >Sheng) that mentions the Malaya country? >(The Taisho number will be fine) >Do you know what he says there exactly? [...] > Chih Sheng is today transcribed in China as >Zhi Sheng and I only have been able to find one scholar of that name. His >name was zhi4 sheng1 and he was compiler of the catalogues of Buddhist >texts Tang Dynasty, in between them the most famous catalogue of >Chinese Buddhists from Tang Dynasty the "Kai1Yuan2 Lu4". He did not >left anything that I know: except his catalogues and encyclopedic work. I >doubt this person could have first hand experience about the Malaya and its >location. But I would be interested to check your reference if I can. Dear Petr Mares, Yes. This is the person. Chih Sheng talking of pu-ta-lo-chia in malaya country paralleling Hsuan Tsang's description is the same as zhi4 sheng1. Please check for me the exact words of Chih Sheng. The information I have on Chih Sheng's writing in seventh century AD is from a Japanese book: Daiyu Goto, Kanzeon Bosatsu no kenkyu, Tokyo: Sankibo Busshorin, 1976, 400 p., Edition: Shutei Zoho According to Goto, Chih Sheng says "Malaya country is where the palace of Avalokitezvara located. It is near Mt. Potalaka which faces the seashore in the South of India". It is the same statement made by Hsuan Tsang. Chih Sheng simply repeats it. Goto's interpretation: Goto early in the present century expresses puzzlement over the fact how can a mountain facing the seashore be situated in the ocean. And, if it is really a mountain in the ocean, should it not be called island? Goto continues: But if Mt. Potalaka is in an island, how come both Hsuan-tsang and Chih-sheng called Potalaka a mountain instead of an island? I gave Hsuan Tsang's passages (from Beal and Watters) on 15 Feb 1999. The reasons for locating Mt. Potalaka as Mt. Potiyil/Potikai in Malaya mountains using Tsang data was given on 2 Feb 1999 under the title Mount Potalaka in Malaya mountains. Also, I wrote 8 Feb 1999 using Tsang data "Potiyil is the malaya mountain. The topmost point of potiyil reaches 2072.6 metres in height. It is visible from Trivandrum on the west coast. (So it is not very far from the sea.) The origin of river tAmraparNi is in potiyil. Potiyil has been historically famous for sandal tree. There is a ziva temple with pAzupata influence at the foot of potiyil. Palaniappan has shown earlier that there is similarity between avalokitEzvara and dakSiNAmUrti forms, and that the presence of dakSiNAmUrti cult at potiyil has been mentioned in the Classical Tamil text, maturaikkAJci. All these factors match Hieun Tsang's description and ensure that the identification of Potalaka with Potiyil by reputed scholars (N. De, N. Dutt, KAN Sastri) is not arbitrary." May be Daiyu Goto's puzzles early in this century are due to his lack of info on South Indian geography, particularly about the Malaya mountains. With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From indtimes at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 22 22:58:45 1999 From: indtimes at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Sanjeev Bhasin) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 17:58:45 -0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227046759.23782.12586870040845978441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1st INDIA BOOK FAIR on internet ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Book Lovers, we are pleased to announce INDIA BOOK FAIR as a permanent website with lot of new and exciting features. 1. Addition of lot of new publishers regularly to the family of IBF. 2. Book search facility on individual stalls of each publisher. 3. Online Buying Facility. 4. Search the complete fair on the basis of topic/ subject/ author/ title etc.. 5. Books available on more than 300 subjects online. 6. Subscribe to the regular mailing list to get updated information about Indian Books of your interest. 7. See latest launchings of Indian Books online. 8. Book reviews of famous Indian Books. 9. Subscribe to the new International Magazine covering new books launched, book reviews, and various attractive features included in indiabookfair.com etc. etc.. 10.Conference Hall to discuss various hot issues. and lot more............ We welcome you to www.indiabookfair.com once again. regards, webmaster www.indiabookfair.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- We regret if you didn't need this email. Kindly send this back to us by writting "remove + your email address" in the subject. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Mon Feb 22 16:26:18 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 21:26:18 +0500 Subject: naa.dii (was: Paishaacika Sanskrit?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046769.23782.17615165985035940979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:28 PM 2/21/99 +0000, you wrote: >[Dear Mr Gansten, I noticed your correspondence about Naa.dii, and >remembered that a good friend of mine, film director and former >Sanskritist Reina Haig, has spent some time in Madras investigating these >traditions. I have passed the recent INDOLOGY exchanges on to her, and >here is her response. > >- DW] Though Reina Haig's Experience corroborates the other peoples observation that nADi gives good readings of the past (which are useless) but it does not give good readings of future, I want to relate a incident written by one of journalist friends where future prediction was fulfilled doubly. One person consulted a nADi astrologer. The nADi grantha was in tamil script. It was predicted that the person will get elevated in his profession when there is "vizAkattil pAmbu". The astrologer interpreted it to mean that the man will be promoted when the shadow planet rAhu (pAmbu=serpent. The form of rAhu is serpent) enters the stellar constellation vizAkha. The man did get his promotion when this happened. Not only that Japanese dropped bombs on Visakhapatnam in the same period. Now in tamil the character for 'pa' and 'ba' are the same and you can read the above phrase as "vizakattil bAmbu" and it means that the man will get his promotion when bombs are dropped on Visakhapatnam. A strange coincidence and I need not add any body who experiences such a thing will become a staunch believer. regards, sarma. From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Mon Feb 22 23:06:26 1999 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 00:06:26 +0100 Subject: Apparent sandhi irregularities in the Bhagavad Gita Message-ID: <161227046781.23782.9393889651253084197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> you must have mixed me with some other Harry. Harry Falk Dermot Killingley schrieb: > Dear Harry, > > "...mahAnubhAvAJ zreyo...". > is correct. > > > "...mahAnubhAvAn zreyo...". > > may, as you suggest, be influenced by the break between the first and > second padas, though normal practice is to break sandhi only at the > end of the second pada (and of course the fourth). In the case of > editions in Roman script, such as Radhakrishnan's, it may be just a > misprint or editor's slip. Anyway, the irregularity is insignificant, > because anyone who knows sandhi can correct it unambiguously and even > without noticing. > > > Verse 10.41 "tejoMzasambhavan". > > This is also insignificant, but for a different reason. There is > considerable variation in practice with avagraha. It's treated as > an aid to the reader rather than an integral part of the text, which > explains why some people use it where word-initial "a" is elided > after word-final "A". > > But in the interests of consistency, I'd advise you to keep the > avagraha in the above line in your edition. > > Dermot > > Dr Dermot Killingley (Reader in Hindu Studies) > Department of Religious Studies, > University of Newcastle upon Tyne, > Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU > Tel: (0191) 222 6730. Fax: (0191) 222 5185 From erpet at COMP.CZ Tue Feb 23 00:08:34 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 01:08:34 +0100 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) In-Reply-To: <19990222231320.6935.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046784.23782.500729424314169617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Yes. This is the person. Chih Sheng talking > of pu-ta-lo-chia in malaya country paralleling Hsuan Tsang's > description is the same as zhi4 sheng1. > Please check for me the exact words of Chih Sheng. I would be glad to check all, but you have to tell me in what book and where he wrote it. There is five voluminous works of this author in the Taisho. Those I have seen were 3 catalogues of Buddhist Tripitaka (very large), a work called "Collection of controversies between Buddhist and Taoist from before and now" T2105 and work called "Collection of writing on confession and worship from various sutras" T1982, unless you can tell me the reference, there is no way for me to find where is the section you mention. > > The information I have on Chih Sheng's writing in seventh > century AD is from a Japanese book: > Daiyu Goto, Kanzeon Bosatsu no kenkyu, > Tokyo: Sankibo Busshorin, > 1976, 400 p., > Edition: Shutei Zoho I am sorry I do not know Japanese. > > It is the same statement made by Hsuan Tsang. Chih Sheng simply > repeats it. He was encyclopedist as you may see from above so he probably just rewrote the words he read without firsthand knowledge (or am I wrong for some reason?). I remeber I saw the doubts about the authenticity of the 10-12 fasciculis of XuanZang even in some old western works (is it not mentioned in Watters, Max Muller's Buddhist Pilgrims or Waley's Real Tripitaka? I do not have them here but will check when I go to library). I also read earlier in the biography of Xuan Zang written in 665 A.D. (can be found in Taisho 2053) that he did not visit MalayakuTa, he just heard about it, Is the Potiyil mountain in that region? My question not related to Zhi Sheng is: Does the Manimekhalai or quotations from Ilambodhiyar mentions Malaya or is there anything about La.Nka there? What about Silappadhikaram? Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From indtimes at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 23 15:45:50 1999 From: indtimes at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Sanjeev Bhasin) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 10:45:50 -0500 Subject: 1st India Book Fair on Internet Message-ID: <161227046786.23782.2027534918340298913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> INVITATION ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 1st INDIA BOOK FAIR on internet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Book Lovers, we are pleased to announce INDIA BOOK FAIR as a permanent website with lot of new and exciting features. 1. Addition of lot of new publishers regularly to the family of IBF. 2. Book search facility on individual stalls of each publisher. 3. Online Buying Facility. 4. Search the complete fair on the basis of topic/ subject/ author/ title etc.. 5. Books available on more than 300 subjects online. 6. Subscribe to the regular mailing list to get updated information about Indian Books of your interest. 7. See latest launchings of Indian Books online. 8. Book reviews of famous Indian Books. 9. Subscribe to the new International Magazine covering new books launched, book reviews, and various attractive features included in indiabookfair.com etc. etc.. 10.Conference Hall to discuss various hot issues. and lot more............ We welcome you to www.indiabookfair.com once again. regards, webmaster www.indiabookfair.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- We regret if you didn't need this email. Kindly send this back to us by writting "remove + your email address" in the subject. From erpet at COMP.CZ Tue Feb 23 10:37:54 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 11:37:54 +0100 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046791.23782.7730587779093587975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I could find some (very) little references to Malaya and Potalaka in two > of the Catalogs compiled by Zhisheng. It is not very difficult to find > these things when we can be helped by the Indices of Taisho... I am sorry, but that is what I do not have here. > "The name of this country is >translated here [= in Chinese] 'guangming' [Shining light]. Do you have any explanation for this translation? Since you mention the Indexes I would like to ask question related to Taisho Indexes rather that to ZhiSheng: Is it possible to find where the word la.Nka is mentioned (???S) in Taisho? Is it in any work of ?????? Tan2 wu2chen4 ?h?????Z?? Donmusen ? (the names are coded in Shift-JIS) Do you know about any solid evidence that Donmusen translated the La.NkAvtAra sUtra? Are there any remains? Is there any research in Japan on the above? Wouldn't it that some of the descriptions found > in these fascicules are based on hearsay evidences, since Xuanzang never > went himself to some of the regions he describes (e.g. Malaku.ta, Malaya > mountain, Potalaka, among others), so that these informations are not very > reliable?? I could be so. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 23 20:13:17 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 12:13:17 -0800 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) Message-ID: <161227046795.23782.14415395664691905024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Zhisheng states at the beginning of this biography that Vajrabodhi >"comes from the country of Malaya, in the South India". Then in a > note, he writes: "The name of this country is >translated here [= in Chinese] 'guangming' [Shining light]. Near >to this country, there is the Palace of Avalokite"svara [in ?] the > Mountain Potalaka". The same thing is repeated by a later compiler > of Canon Catalog, Yuanzhao, T. LV 2157 xiv 875a13-14. Dear Dr. Nobumi Iyanaga, Greetings from N. Ganesan Is the name of the Malaya country translated as Kuang ming (Shining light)? Lokesh Chandra, Origin of the Avalokitezvara of Potala, Kailash journal, p. 6, "Hsuan-tsang must have read in the Avatamsaka sutra about the earthly paradise of Avalokitezvara: Potalaka is on the sea-side in the South. it has woods, and streams and tanks, and is in fact a sort of earthly paradise. Budhhabhadra (AD 420) calls Kuanyin's mountain Kuang-ming or 'Brilliance', which is usually given as the rendering for Malaya, but a later translator, zikshAnanda, transcribes the name Potalaka (Watters 1905:2.231)". Alexander C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhist art in China, p. 163, "The six dynasties translation of the GaNDavyUha sUtra, done by Buddhabhadra between 418 and 420 or 421, introduces the two thus: Going continually on and on, he made his way to Mount Radiant, which he ascended. On it he looked everywhere for the Bodhisattva Avalokitezvara .. Here the Bodhisattva is called "Kuan-shih-yin" and the mountain is "Kuang-ming Shan". In the T'ang translation of the same work, done between 695-699, both names are modernized, the first to "Kuan-tzu-tsai" and the second to "pu-ta-lo-chia" (i.e.,) Potalaka". L. Chandra is saying that Malaya is Kuang-ming originally. But, A. C. Soper is saying the Mountain is Kuang-ming originally. Which is correct? You have said that Zhisheng calls Malaya country as Guang-ming. Is the Malaya country called Guang-ming or the Potalaka called Guang-ming??? In Zhisheng and in Buddhabhadra?? Thanks a lot for this help. >I often see this book in old book shops in Tokyo, but I don't > have it. Does Mr. Ganesan read Japanese? If not, how did he >know what is written in this book...?? I asked a friend knowing Japanese to read & tell me. With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 23 22:30:44 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 14:30:44 -0800 Subject: Aiyanar - Any Buddhist connections? Message-ID: <161227046801.23782.1931502555423814798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does the village folk deity with huge clay horses have any Buddhist connections? Aiyappan is a form of Aiyanar. Does Sabarimala deity has anything Buddhist in him? Dear Dr. Chevillard, Please check for me M. E. Adiceam, Contribution a l'etude d'Aiyanar=Sasta, Pondichery, 1967. Does Marguerite Adiceam talk any thing Buddhist in relationship to Aiyanar? Many thanks, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.OR.JP Tue Feb 23 06:00:13 1999 From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.OR.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 15:00:13 +0900 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) In-Reply-To: <199902230007.BAA05157@vega.inec.cz> Message-ID: <161227046788.23782.1277527590491495888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan and Mr. Mares, I was following your discussions with interest. At 1:08 AM +0100 2/23/99, Petr Mares wrote: > > Yes. This is the person. Chih Sheng talking > > of pu-ta-lo-chia in malaya country paralleling Hsuan Tsang's > > description is the same as zhi4 sheng1. > > Please check for me the exact words of Chih Sheng. > > I would be glad to check all, but you have to tell me in what book > and where he wrote it. There is five voluminous works of this author > in the Taisho. Those I have seen were 3 catalogues of Buddhist > Tripitaka (very large), a work called "Collection of controversies > between Buddhist and Taoist from before and now" T2105 and work > called "Collection of writing on confession and worship from various > sutras" T1982, unless you can tell me the reference, there is no > way for me to find where is the section you mention. > > I could find some (very) little references to Malaya and Potalaka in two of the Catalogs compiled by Zhisheng. It is not very difficult to find these things when we can be helped by the Indices of Taisho... In T. LV 2152 i 372b19-20 and T. LV 2154 ix 571b27-28, there is a biography of the Tantric master Vajrabodhi (the two seem the same). Zhisheng states at the beginning of this biography that Vajrabodhi "comes from the country of Malaya, in the South India". Then in a note, he writes: "The name of this country is translated here [= in Chinese] 'guangming' [Shining light]. Near to this country, there is the Palace of Avalokite"svara [in ?] the Mountain Potalaka". The same thing is repeated by a later compiler of Canon Catalog, Yuanzhao, T. LV 2157 xiv 875a13-14. That is all that I could find so far. > > The information I have on Chih Sheng's writing in seventh > > century AD is from a Japanese book: > > Daiyu Goto, Kanzeon Bosatsu no kenkyu, > > Tokyo: Sankibo Busshorin, > > 1976, 400 p., > > Edition: Shutei Zoho > > I am sorry I do not know Japanese. > > > I often see this book in old book shops in Tokyo, but I don't have it. Does Mr. Ganesan read Japanese? If not, how did he know what is written in this book...?? > > It is the same statement made by Hsuan Tsang. Chih Sheng simply > > repeats it. > He was encyclopedist as you may see from above so he probably > just rewrote the words he read without firsthand knowledge (or am I > wrong for some reason?). > I too think so. The travel of Xuanzang was very well known so that it is not surprising that he is quoted in this way. But it is well known also that Chinese people in Tang period were in general well aware of Indian things; it is not impossible that Zhisheng had some more direct informations. > I remeber I saw the doubts about the authenticity of the 10-12 > fasciculis of XuanZang even in some old western works (is it not > mentioned in Watters, Max Muller's Buddhist Pilgrims or Waley's > Real Tripitaka? I do not have them here but will check when I go to > library). I also read earlier in the biography of Xuan Zang written in > 665 A.D. (can be found in Taisho 2053) that he did not visit > MalayakuTa, he just heard about it, Is the Potiyil mountain in that > region? > I have never heard of any doubt about the authenticity of the last part of the travel of Xuanzang. Wouldn't it that some of the descriptions found in these fascicules are based on hearsay evidences, since Xuanzang never went himself to some of the regions he describes (e.g. Malaku.ta, Malaya mountain, Potalaka, among others), so that these informations are not very reliable?? > My question not related to Zhi Sheng is: > Does the Manimekhalai or quotations from Ilambodhiyar mentions > Malaya or is there anything about La.Nka there? > What about Silappadhikaram? > > Sincerely > > Petr Mares Best regards, Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan Please note that my e-mai address has changed. The new address is: n-iyanag at ppp.bekkoame.ne.jp The old address: n-iyanag at ppp.bekkoame.or.jp will not work after March 1999 My web site url has changed also. The new url is: http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~n-iyanag/ The old url: http://www.bekkoame.op.jp/~n-iyanag/ will not work after March 1999 Thank you! From erpet at COMP.CZ Tue Feb 23 14:02:09 1999 From: erpet at COMP.CZ (Petr Mares) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 15:02:09 +0100 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046793.23782.4288693597743063760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Zhisheng states at > the beginning of this biography that Vajrabodhi "comes from the country of > Malaya, in the South India". Then in a note, he writes: "The name of > this country is translated here [= in Chinese] 'guangming' [Shining > light]. Near to this country, there is the Palace of Avalokite"svara [in > ?] the Mountain Potalaka". The same thing is repeated by a later compiler > of Canon Catalog, Yuanzhao, T. LV 2157 xiv 875a13-14. Dear Mr. Iyanaga I am curious why Malaya is being rendered here as Guang1 Ming2 which ussualy stands for Sanskrit Aloka, prabhAsvara, am/Su, tejas or prabhA. Anybody knows? I dont have the Taisho here but does ZhiSheng says Guang1 Ming2 is translation of the word Malaya or that of South India. (in either case it is not clear to me) Is there Nan2 tian1zhu2, Nan2 yin4du4 or something else for South India? Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 24 00:34:03 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 16:34:03 -0800 Subject: Black antelope: Durga's mount Message-ID: <161227046805.23782.11473496565184785255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following has relevance to threads: 1) What animal does Durga ride? 2) Indus culture, Durga, and Cilappatikaram 3) How a buck/stag could have become a lion? All in June 1997. Sorry for being late. Not only CilappatikAram, but Tevaram, Perialvar, CuuTaamaNi nikaNTu also talk of Durga riding a black antelope. kalai atu Urti ceya mAtu - Tevaram 1) Ay kalaip paavai, 2) pAy kalaip pAvai, 3) kalaip pari Urtiyaik kai tozutu Etti, 4) kariya tiri kOTTuk kalaimicai mEl nin2RAyAl occur in CilappatikAram. I do not know if the corresponding IVC seals (cf. Parpola) depict animals with manes and hence Prof. Parpola identifies them as Markhor goats. But Tamil tradition, both in sculpture and texts, definitely talk of black antelope as one of Durga's mounts (the other being Lion). There are two beautiful Durga sculptures at Madras Government museum. One is eight armed Durga standing on a Buffalo head. Nearby is the Black antelope, the Lion is absent. The other similar Durga with black antelope, (and NO lion) is from Periya veNmaNi village. Published:Nanditha Krishna, Shakti in art and religion, Madras: C. P. Ramaswami Aiyar Foundation, 1991, plate 12. What is the current URL of Dr. Michael Rabe's Durga article (Durgas with stags from Singavaram, Mamallapuram, Tiruchy)? Can the presence of stag represent a Durga at peace after war and a the presence of lion indicate Durga at war? Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 23 20:22:36 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 20:22:36 +0000 Subject: naa.dii (was: Paishaacika Sanskrit?) In-Reply-To: <09591086304063@sbbs.se> Message-ID: <161227046797.23782.5160850144114063558.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Martin, On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Martin Gansten wrote: > Incidentally, would you have any suggestions for 'netra-krimi', I had a quick search through the following medical texts: Susrutasamhita Carakasamhita Bhavaprakasa Sarngadharasamhita Astangahrdaya and apparently the term does not occur in classical ayurveda. Of course "netra" and "krimi" occur a lot separately. But not the syndrome. I'm surprised, and if I have time, I'll recheck my search. Best, Dominik --- Dominik Wujastyk http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ From mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Wed Feb 24 04:50:55 1999 From: mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 20:50:55 -0800 Subject: email address please Message-ID: <161227046812.23782.8606906168965097287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone please send me the email address of Professor William L. Smith of Stockholm University? The address I have, William.Smith at orient.su.se does not seem to work. Many thanks. Mandakranta Bose Department of Religious Studies/ Director, Programme in Inter-cultural Studies in Asia Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2 mbose at interchange.ubc.ca From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 24 02:56:07 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 21:56:07 -0500 Subject: Funayama In-Reply-To: <01be5f84$5dd03300$07253ec3@carlos> Message-ID: <161227046807.23782.12071133355769026493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Would anybody know where and when the T. Funayama's article >'Remarks on Religiuos Predominance in Kashmir; Hindu od >Buddhist?" was published? A Study of the NIlamata: Aspects of Hinduism in Ancient Kashmir. Ed. Yasuke IKARI (Kyoto: Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University, 1994): 367-375 Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Tue Feb 23 20:58:57 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 21:58:57 +0100 Subject: the word "potiyil" inside MaNimEkalai (Was Re: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD)) In-Reply-To: <199902230007.BAA05157@vega.inec.cz> Message-ID: <161227046799.23782.5411625678205190221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A 01:08 23/02/99 +0100, Petr Mares a ?crit : > >My question not related to Zhi Sheng is: >Does the Manimekhalai or quotations from Ilambodhiyar mentions >Malaya or is there anything about La.Nka there? >What about Silappadhikaram? > This is not exactly an answer to the question as it was put by Petr Mares, but I believe it is not out of place to examine precisely how the word "potiyil" is used inside the buddhist epic maNimEkalai, where it appears 12 times and seems to have two different meanings: (A) in 9 occasions it designates a public place (or a public hall?) (B) in 3 occasions it refers to Mount Potiyil the 9 (A) occurences are: 1-58: taN maNal pantarum tAzhtaru potiyilum 20-15: potiyil nIGkiya pozhutil cen2Ru 20-30: mAtavar iTaGkaLum man2Ramum potiyilum 20-79: maRRavaL irunta man2Rap potiyiluL 21-6: maintaRku uRRatum man2Rap potiyil 21-37: poyyA nAvoTu ip potiyilil poruntiya 21-122: potiyilum man2Ramum poruntupu nATi 28-59: man2Ramum potiyilum cantiyum catukkamum 28-66: cAlaiyum kUTamum taman2iya potiyilum the 3 (B) occurrences are: 15-82: ten2 ticaip potiyil Or ciRRiyARu aTaikarai 17-24: ten2 ticaip potiyil kANiya vantEn2 20-22: mazhai cUzh kuTumip potiyil kun2Rattu It is possible for me to extract an english translation for these 12 passages from the Danielou-(T.V.Gopal-Iyer) "joint translation" ;-) but I am sure it would be better to ask S.Palaniappan to provide his own translation (it is always a pleasure to see his very precise renderings) and to give his comment In the case of CilappatikAram, the situation is different because meaning (B) seems to be more frequent than meaning (A). This will be my small contribution to that long and interesting thread. -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) From b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT Tue Feb 23 23:29:32 1999 From: b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT (Bruno Lo Turco) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 00:29:32 +0100 Subject: Funayama Message-ID: <161227046803.23782.9707537647808668085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would anybody know where and when the T. Funayama's article 'Remarks on Religiuos Predominance in Kashmir; Hindu od Buddhist?" was published? TIA Bruno Lo Turco Universita' di Roma 'La Sapienza' From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 24 05:53:06 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 00:53:06 -0500 Subject: Malay =? Guangming? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046814.23782.10369226761068406963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > the Malaya country translated as Kuang ming It is interesting to note that no such equivalence is listed by TSUJI et al. in the best Sanskrit-Chinese dictionary (nominally Skt-Japanese, but actually more helpful for its Chinese equivalents), nor in AKANUMA Chizen's Proper Name dictionary s.v. Malaya. Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Feb 24 08:29:33 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 03:29:33 -0500 Subject: Potala(ka) etc Message-ID: <161227046822.23782.17086543242626902455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/24/99 1:57:30 AM Central Standard Time, sogbs at CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU writes: > For example, we do not even have a proper > iconographical description of the Venkatesvara cult-image in its unadorned > state - Jamanadas is reduced to citing somebody else's opinion that it > resembles a Padmapani image at Ajanta. We have a very vivid description of the deity at vEGkaTam in cilappatikAram (not later than 5th century AD) as given below. In that text, it was already a pilgrimage site. The description is very detailed in terms of his conch, discus, etc. vIgku nIr aruvi vEgkaTam en2n2um Ogku uyar malaiyattu ucci mImicai viri katir jnAyiRum tigkaLum viLagki iru marugku Ogkiya iTainilait tAn2attu min2n2uk kOTi uTuttu viLagku vil pUNTu nal niRa mEkam nin2Ratu pOla pakai aNagku Aziyum pAl veN cagkamum takai peRu tAmaraik kaiyin2 Enti nalam kiLar Aram mArpil pUNTu polam pU ATaiyin2 polintu tOn2Riya ceg kaN neTiyOn2 nin2Ra vaNNamum (cil. 11.41-51) I do not know why Ramanuja had to establish (or re-establish) vaiSNava claim. The AzvArs had several hymns dedicated to viSNu at vEGkaTam. Of course, some staunch zaivites had always claimed (UVS's teacher was one of them) that the deity at vEGkaTam was originally ziva. But I agree with the point - the present day affiliation may not be the same as the one two millennia ago. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Feb 24 08:58:27 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 03:58:27 -0500 Subject: Potala(ka) etc Message-ID: <161227046824.23782.17603653279501944557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/24/99 2:30:51 AM Central Standard Time, Palaniappa at AOL.COM writes: > > We have a very vivid description of the deity at vEGkaTam in cilappatikAram > (not later than 5th century AD) as given below. In that text, it was already > a > pilgrimage site. The description is very detailed in terms of his conch, > discus, etc. Oops. I forgot to mention that the description is of an adorned deity. Some other thoughts. As Geoffrey Samuel said, "Major temples and shrines - particularly, perhaps, major centres of pilgrimage - were objects of multiple interpretation." In that case, if the southern Tamilnadu/Kerala region had an important role to play in the development of avalokitezvara cult, there could not be any site other than potiyil as the basis for a legendary place of his. Not only Classical Tamil texts pair up Himalaya and Potiyil. Even zaivite nAyan2mar do that as in the following tEvAram (7th century AD) mentioning kailAsa and potiyil as ziva's "special" places. ayil uRu paTaiyin2ar; viTaiyin2ar; muTimEl aravamum matiyamum viraviya azakar; mayil uRu cAyal van2amulai orupAl makizpavar; vAn2 iTai mukil pulkum miTaRar; payilvu uRu caritaiyar; erutu ukantu ERip pATiyu ATiyum pali koLvar; vali cEr *kayilaiyum potiyilum* iTam en2a uTaiyAr kazumalam nin2aiya nam vin2aikaricu aRumE. (tEv. 1.79.1) Ta. kayilai = Skt. kailAsa I think the presence of dakSiNAmUrti cult at potiyil was not insignificant either. Regards S. Palaniappan From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 24 15:34:27 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 07:34:27 -0800 Subject: the word "potiyil" inside MaNimEkalai (Was Re: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD)) Message-ID: <161227046836.23782.15767743649664273741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. J.-L. Chevillard, Can you give us the places where Potiyam and Potiyil figures in Sangam texts (eTTut tokai and pattup paaTTu)? Please. How many places Potiyil refers to Mt. Potiyil and at how many places it refers to a "Public Hall". Thanks a bouquet! SM _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 24 16:27:31 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 08:27:31 -0800 Subject: Parvata in VP 2.486 Message-ID: <161227046840.23782.18135130217271176547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I was browsing the Indology webpage. There, I saw a VERY INTERESTING article entitled as Parvata, potiyil, and zrI-parvata: (Some remarks by N. Ganesan). Its URL is: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/ganesan-parvata.html This is totally new and a fresh look at VP 2.486. When approached for congratulation purposes, Dr. N. Ganesan confessed me that its author is Dr. S. Palaniappan and not him, though Ganesan said he wishes to be as precise as Dr. S. Palaniappan. Hearty congratulations to Dr. S. Palaniappan. Sincerely, Swaminathan Madhuresan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From WIKNER at NACDH4.NAC.AC.ZA Wed Feb 24 06:27:32 1999 From: WIKNER at NACDH4.NAC.AC.ZA (Charles Wikner) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 08:27:32 +0200 Subject: Apparent sandhi irregularities in the Bhagavad Gita Message-ID: <161227046818.23782.1463630828383728319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Dermot Killingley wrote: > > Verse 10.41 "tejoMzasambhavan". > > This is also insignificant, but for a different reason. There is > considerable variation in practice with avagraha. It's treated as > an aid to the reader rather than an integral part of the text, which > explains why some people use it where word-initial "a" is elided > after word-final "A". > > But in the interests of consistency, I'd advise you to keep the > avagraha in the above line in your edition. Presumably that is transliterated as "tejo'Mzasambhavan". However, two editions to hand that have the avagraha (Sargeant, Sastry), have the bindu above the "jo" rather than the avagraha. Although this makes no difference to the sound, is it in fact a typo (it seems odd to append an anusvAra to an avagraha), or is it correct (in which case the transliteration is asymmetrical). Any offers? Regards, Charles. From latapy at BONNIE.LIAFA.JUSSIEU.FR Wed Feb 24 09:44:45 1999 From: latapy at BONNIE.LIAFA.JUSSIEU.FR (Mathieu Latapy) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 10:44:45 +0100 Subject: Book about navagraha (nine planets) Message-ID: <161227046826.23782.10758555723914462790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I have the reference of a book I can't find in Paris: SARASWATHY, K.N, and ARDHANAREESWARAN, B., "Navagraha or Nine Planets", Kadalangudi Centenary Astrological Book Series, N.1 . Madras: Kadalangudi House, 1978. Does any of you know this work? Could someone obtain a hard copy of it for me, or at least tell me about its content ? Thanks in advance, Magali Vacherot. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 24 19:02:04 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 11:02:04 -0800 Subject: Potala(ka) etc Message-ID: <161227046848.23782.12162206731425888055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Geoffrey Samuel wrote: >Potalaka certainly *could* have been Tirupati, on our present (lack >of) evidence - certainly the fact that Venkatesvar's identity was >eventually fixed as Visnu rather than Siva isn't enough to eliminate > it. Experientially, Venkatesvara seems to me to be much the same >kind of compassionate saviour deity as Avalokitesvara in the older >textual material, and it would be nice to think that this most >important of Buddhist shrines in South India was continuing its >activity under a new name and management. But we just don't know, > and I don't find the alternative identifications which have been >advanced particularly persuasive either, unless someone can come up > with major new epigraphic or textual evidence. Certainly, D. C. Ahir's view that Potalaka is Tirupati has the LEAST probability among the contenders. On the contrary, N. De, N. Dutt, K. A. N. Sastri, L. M. Joshi ... write that Potalaka is in the Malaya mountains near Cape Comorin. Cilappatikaram, dated in 5th century by Westeners, states unequivocally that Tirupati belongs to TirumAl/Vishnu. Also, the many many poems(pAsurams) on Tirupati by Srivaishnava Alvars. Not only that. There is NO other claim from other opposing sects. Tirumurugu, the earliest bhakti text on Subrahmanya and one of the earliest bhakti cult texts from all of India, does not talk of Tirupati as a Murukan center. Nor does Tevaram claim Tirupati to be Saivaite. Buddhsit texts also never mention Tirupati as a pilgrimage site in Tamil. What about Xuan Zang and Zhi Sheng talking of Potalaka as in Malaya mountains? I see NO mention of that data from 7th century in your writing. There is an attested Tamil tradition telling Siva teaching Tamil to Agastya in Potiyil/Malaya mountains. A 11th century text tells that Avalokitezvara teaches Tamil to Agastya. Tradition informs that Agastya lives in Mt. Potiyil/Malaya. Early Tamil Texts attest to the presence of Daksinamurti cult in Mt. Potiyil. Note that Nandikezvara kArikA telling NaTarAja taught Panini is a South Indian text. IT IS INTRIGUING TO NOTE THE PRESENCE OF SANAKA (a Rishi) in the NandikezvarakArikA, and hence relationship to DakshinamUrti. NandikezvarakArika is most likely written in Tamilnadu. (Despite claiming it as Kashmiri text, there is no term NaTarAja occuring anywhere in Kashmiri texts. Prof. R. Torella was quoted saying that it is more likely a Southern text than from Kashmir). There is lot more relations between Siva and Avalokitezvara, explained in M. Deshpande, JAOS, 1997 paper. Also, "maNi padme hum" and dazabhUmikA sUtra. Regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Wed Feb 24 10:12:54 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 11:12:54 +0100 Subject: Aiyanar - Any Buddhist connections? In-Reply-To: <19990223223044.4400.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046828.23782.18370634227638157016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A 14:30 23/02/99 PST, vous avez ?crit : > >Dear Dr. Chevillard, > >Please check for me M. E. Adiceam, Contribution a l'etude >d'Aiyanar=Sasta, Pondichery, 1967. Does Marguerite Adiceam >talk any thing Buddhist in relationship to Aiyanar? > >Many thanks, >N. Ganesan > Dear Dr Ganesan, You are lucky that I'm having this book with me ... I went rapidly through it but did not find anything inside the text that could fullfill your desire ... As for the 38 photographs contained in the appendix I am not able to comment them Best wishes -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 24 19:36:11 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 11:36:11 -0800 Subject: Cultures' abilities Message-ID: <161227046849.23782.10994915161534411216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Petr Mares wrote: >Another thing is that I pesronally believe that some cultures have >more people able to write poetry and some country has more >manpower that capture easy what is recursive coding. Obscure, as usual. "Some cultures ... more .. write poetry" - Does this refer to China? "more manpower ... recursive coding" - Does this refer to India? If so, this is only a *subjectve* opinion, I am afraid. All Indian languages have beautiful poetry from ancient times comparable to any other on earth. eg., Sanskrit and Tamil. Chinese poetry getting well known in the West has more to do with money, lobby, Sinology well funded compared to Indology, etc., Indian ability in Programming, nurtured by individual efforts, have the roots in ShulbasUtras, Zero concept,Aryabhatta, Madhavan Nambudiri who invented Gregorian sine series several centuries before Newton, Ramanujan (FRS), Karmarkar (ATT Labs, Operations Research).... Regards, SM _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 24 19:46:54 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 11:46:54 -0800 Subject: G. Hart on Potalaka Message-ID: <161227046851.23782.5652969750318174490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venerable Indologists, Before my critique on "Who inspired Panini?, JAOS, 1997" was posted to Indology under the title, "Where was Panini inspired?" (4 long posts), I checked with Prof. George Hart, Dept. of Asian studies, Univ. of California, Berkeley. In an e-mail dated 7-July-1998, I submit a private e-mail to me from Dr. Hart: "Dear Ganesan, I have long argued that Avalokitesvara's Potalaka is Potiyil of the sangam texts. Best, George". George Hart can be reached at ghart at socrates.berkeley.edu With kind regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 24 19:57:52 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 11:57:52 -0800 Subject: P'u t'o island known ONLY from 9th century AD Message-ID: <161227046853.23782.7747214523527683917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Petr Mares provided an abstract of a Guanyin by Dr. Pa Chou. The article claims that P'u t'o is known from 5-6th centuries. This is contrary to the available evidence. It is known only from 9th century AD. Pl. read, Chun-fang Yu, P'u-t'o Shan: Pilgrimage and the Creation of the Chinese Potalaka, Univ. of Califonia, 1992 to see that P'u t'o is known only from 9-10th centuries AD onwards. I think Pa Chou is writing as a Guanyin devotee rather than with textual or archaeological evidence. (Like K. N. Sarasvati on navagrahas - daughter of KaDalanguDi Natesa SastrigaL). Pl. read a personal letter: <<< Dear Dr. Ganesan, I read the article by Pa Chou sometime ago but do not remember his saying that P'u-t'o was already a Buddhist pilgrimage site in the 5th-6th century. I will reread it again, but from everything I have read, the island was not known to the Buddhists prior to the 9th century as I stated in my article. Best, Chun-fang >>> Petr Mares suggested going thru' Dunhuong manuscripts. Experts have informed me that there is almost NO chance that those mss. will talk of P'u t'o island as Guanyin's home. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Wed Feb 24 07:01:29 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 12:01:29 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990221223602.0086bd40@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227046816.23782.6836096122980114412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some people think that the best way to solve a problem is to complicate it further. Here is an another identification of a Potalaka. BUDDHIST CHINA by Reginald Fleming Johnston Published by JohnMurray, Albermarle Street, London W. 1913. Pages 270 ff. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Chinese Buddhists acknowledge that the original seat of Kuan-yin was at a great distance from China. According to one interpretation of Avalokitesvara, it means the Lord (Isvara) who looks down from a height. The "height" is the sacred mountain of Potalaka, a place which is always associated with the worship of this Bodhisat. Where the original Potalaka is a disputed question. It is usually assumed to have been a rocky hill to the east of Malaya mountain, southern India near the harbour of Cape Komorin. If this identification is correct, it seems highly probable that the deity worshipped there was of non-Buddhist origin and there is evidence to associate her (or him) with Siva. ______________________________________________________________________ In support of placing Potalaka at Cape Komorin we have this note of S.Beal. Hiuen Tsang travels ( Record of....) Vol.2, Page 233, Note 130. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The symbol used implies "a division of the sea" as though it were at a point where it is devided into an eastern and western ocean. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kuan-yin is a child carrying godess and is supposed to be modelled after a similar Taoist godess. Now the question is whether Chinese first identified Avalokitesvara with KanyAkumAri and afterwards equated her to Taoist godess or they first modelled Kuan-yin after Taoist godess and then identified her with the supposed Avlokitesvara ( or rather Avalokitesvari) at KanyAkumAri? regards, sarma. From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Wed Feb 24 11:09:46 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 12:09:46 +0100 Subject: the word "potiyil" inside MaNimEkalai (Was Re: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD)) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990223215857.006ea7a0@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <161227046830.23782.3989810223209948737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:58 23/02/99 +0100, I wrote : > ...... I believe it is not out of place >to examine precisely how the word "potiyil" is used inside >the buddhist epic maNimEkalai, where it appears 12 times >and seems to have two different meanings: > (A) in 9 occasions it designates a public place (or a public hall?) > (B) in 3 occasions it refers to Mount Potiyil > >the 9 (A) occurences are: > ................ >the 3 (B) occurrences are: > 15-82: ten2 ticaip potiyil Or ciRRiyARu aTaikarai > 17-24: ten2 ticaip potiyil kANiya vantEn2 > 20-22: mazhai cUzh kuTumip potiyil kun2Rattu > I have found another reference to Mount Potiyil inside maNimEkalai, but in that case the word "malayam" is used. It is: 1-3: OGku uyar malayattu arun tavan2 ... "the great sage Agastya, who dwells on Potikai" (p.1) The translation for this line comes from the book already referred to [Manimekhala?, New Direction Book, 1989]: it is not a precise one, but it is readable to some extent. For example, the 3 above mentionned (B) occurrences are translated as: 15-82: "[she halted one day] on Mount Podiyil on the bank of a stream [in order to rest a little]" (p.61) 17-24: "[My husband and] I came to visit the Southern lands and to admire [the fertile slopes of] Mount Podiyil" (p.68) 20-22: "[In his distant country, Kanchana, Kayashandika?s' husband, was reflecting. ``Twelve years have now passed since, as a result of the errors committed in some other life, my spouse was the victim of a curse pronounced by the famous ascetic Vrishchika near a stream bordered with rushes] on the slopes of Mount Podiyil, whose crest is lost in the clouds'' (p.83-84) These 3 passages belong to the same story inside the story (involving non-human characters). They are not realistic descriptions. To me, it does not look like one could draw any conclusion from the text of maNimEkalai regarding a buddhist claim on Mount Potiyil Others may differ Best wishes -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.OR.JP Wed Feb 24 03:23:21 1999 From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.OR.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 12:23:21 +0900 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) In-Reply-To: <19990223201317.29514.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046809.23782.10494268659494176785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan, Thank you for clarifying the reason of this strange "translation". At 0:13 PM -0800 2/23/99, N. Ganesan wrote: > Dear Dr. Nobumi Iyanaga, > > [snip...] > > Is the name of the Malaya country translated as Kuang ming > (Shining light)? > Yes, since Zhisheng says clearly "Vajrabodhi... He is from the Country Malaya (we say here [in China] the Country Guangming...)". > Lokesh Chandra, Origin of the Avalokitezvara of Potala, > Kailash journal, p. 6, > "Hsuan-tsang must have read in the Avatamsaka sutra about the > earthly paradise of Avalokitezvara: Potalaka is on the sea-side > in the South. it has woods, and streams and tanks, and is in fact > a sort of earthly paradise. Budhhabhadra (AD 420) calls Kuanyin's > mountain Kuang-ming or 'Brilliance', which is usually given as > the rendering for Malaya, but a later translator, zikshAnanda, > transcribes the name Potalaka (Watters 1905:2.231)". > I don't have the article of Lokesh Chandra, but I have the book of Watters. It seems that L. Chandra copies here simply the wording of Watters. > Alexander C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhist art in China, > p. 163, > "The six dynasties translation of the GaNDavyUha sUtra, done by > Buddhabhadra between 418 and 420 or 421, introduces the two thus: > > Going continually on and on, he made his way to Mount Radiant, which > he ascended. On it he looked everywhere for the Bodhisattva > Avalokitezvara .. > This is the exact translation of T. IX 278 li 718a14-15. > Here the Bodhisattva is called "Kuan-shih-yin" and the mountain is > "Kuang-ming Shan". In the T'ang translation of the same work, done > between 695-699, both names are modernized, the first to > "Kuan-tzu-tsai" and the second to "pu-ta-lo-chia" (i.e.,) Potalaka". > Yes. The reference in Taisho is: T. X 279 lxviii 366c3-4 and sq. > L. Chandra is saying that Malaya is Kuang-ming > originally. But, A. C. Soper is saying the Mountain is > Kuang-ming originally. Which is correct? > Well, L. Chandra, or rather, Watters, writes: Budhhabhadra (AD 420) calls Kuanyin's mountain Kuang-ming or 'Brilliance', which is usually given as the rendering for Malaya... Now, I don't know if this is exact. As I only discovered that the *Country Malaya* is translated by "Guangming-guo" ("guo" means "country") by Zhishen yesterday for the first time... Without any further evidence, I would tend to consider that Zhisheng was confusing some data: 1. He knew that the Mountain Potalaka, in which lives the Bodhisattva Avalokite"svara, is translated by "Guangming" by Buddhabhadra; 2. He knew that this Mountain Potalaka was near to the Mountain Malaya by reading the travel of Xuanzang. -> First error of Zhisheng: he thought that Malaya was a country -> Second error : he thought that Guangming was a translation of Malaya... > You have said that Zhisheng calls Malaya country as Guang-ming. > Is the Malaya country called Guang-ming or the Potalaka > called Guang-ming??? In Zhisheng and in Buddhabhadra?? > In Zhisheng, it is the country Malaya which is rendred by "Guangming-guo", the Country Shining-Light; and in the translation of Buddhabhadra, it is (or seems) the Mountain Potalaka which is rendred "Guangming-shan", the Mountain Shining-Light (I say "seems", because he doesn't give any transcription so that we can not be sure about the original word that he was seeing...). In the encyclopedy Mochizuki, p. 4429c sq., s.v. Fudaraku-san, we have first some Chinese transcriptions of the word Potalaka or Potala, then as "translations" "White Flower (baihua)", "Little White Flower (xiao baihua)", "Little Flower Tree (xiao hua-shu)", "Little Tree ornemented with tendril (xiaoshu wan zhuangyan)" or "Shining Light (guangming)" or "Sea Island (haidao)". > Thanks a lot for this help. > You are welcome! Best regards, Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan P.S. I am sorry to say: I am not a doctor. So please call me simply Iyanaga, or perhaps better, Nobumi. Thank you (for my background, please see my web page, if you have some spare time...). Please note that my e-mai address has changed. The new address is: n-iyanag at ppp.bekkoame.ne.jp The old address: n-iyanag at ppp.bekkoame.or.jp will not work after March 1999 My web site url has changed also. The new url is: http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~n-iyanag/ The old url: http://www.bekkoame.op.jp/~n-iyanag/ will not work after March 1999 Thank you! From mgansten at SBBS.SE Wed Feb 24 11:44:56 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 12:44:56 +0100 Subject: Book about navagraha (nine planets) Message-ID: <161227046832.23782.11823098193147208922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Magali, > SARASWATHY, K.N, and ARDHANAREESWARAN, B., "Navagraha >or Nine Planets", Kadalangudi Centenary Astrological >Book Series, N.1 . Madras: Kadalangudi House, 1978. Saraswathy is a practising astrologer. The book deals chiefly with the worship of the Navagrahas, from a believer's rather than a scholarly perspective (not suggesting that the two are irreconcilable), justifying and elaborating on its practice. A fairly substantial appendix contains the liturgy (mantra, kavaca, stotra, naamaavali) of each Graha. If this is what you're interested in, I could send you a photocopy. Regards, Martin Gansten From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 24 13:17:36 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 13:17:36 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN: thread closed] was: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in romantransliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046834.23782.9613112644140203630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Eliot Stern has rightly pointed out that this thread is drifting off-track for the INDOLOGY list. I hereby declare this discussion thread closed. Thank you, Dominik Wujastyk -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/library London NW1 2BE, England. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 25 00:13:38 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 16:13:38 -0800 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) Message-ID: <161227046861.23782.10071156694944787089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nobumi Iyanaga wrote: >>The travel of Xuanzang was very well known so that it is >>not surprising that he is quoted in this way. >>But it is well known also that Chinese people in Tang period were >>in general well aware of Indian things; it is not impossible that >>Zhisheng had some more direct informations. Petr Mares wrote: > I remeber I saw the doubts about the authenticity of the 10-12 > fasciculis of XuanZang even in some old western works (is it not > mentioned in Watters, Max Muller's Buddhist Pilgrims or Waley's > Real Tripitaka? I do not have them here but will check when I go to > library). I also read earlier in the biography of Xuan Zang written > in 665 A.D. (can be found in Taisho 2053) that he did not visit > MalayakuTa, he just heard about it, Is the Potiyil mountain in that > region? I have also read that Xuan Zang did NOT go South of Kanchipuram. - NG Nobumi Iyanaga wrote: >>I have never heard of any doubt about the authenticity of the last >>part of the travel of Xuanzang. ... Prof. Chun-fang Yu, Rutgers university also expressed the same surprise when I queried whether the Potalaka passage in Malaya mountains is a "forgery". I give Dr. Yu's letter below: [Begin quote] This is the first time that I read that the passage about Potalaka found in Hsuan-tsang's account was a forgery. Did your informant supply evidence for such assertion? Who said that this was a forgery? [End quote] Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lengqie at GMX.NET Wed Feb 24 15:39:10 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 16:39:10 +0100 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) In-Reply-To: <000b01be5fb6$1373df00$2af2578b@Mani-PC1.ipg.3com.com> Message-ID: <161227046838.23782.11386789040773455184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >I am curious why Malaya is being rendered here as > >Guang1 Ming2 which ussualy stands for Sanskrit Aloka, prabhAsvara, > >am/Su, tejas or prabhA. Anybody knows? I dont have the Taisho here but > >does ZhiSheng says Guang1 Ming2 is translation of the word Malaya or that > >of South India. (in either case it is not clear to me) Is there Nan2 > >tian1zhu2, Nan2 yin4du4 or something else for South India? > > Kanyakumari district in the deep south of Tamil Nadu, bordering on > Kerala and the Potiyil mountains, has been known as Naancil Naadu. > (I am sorry I don't know the latin transcription standard) since ancient > times. Dear Mr. Manivannan Thank you for the reply. What does the Naancil Naadu means? Actually the word "Nan2" in Nan2 tien1zhu1 and Nan2 Yin4du4 above was Chinese word for "south". I was just curious why someone would say that name of that area should mean GuangMing = "Bright"? Is there anything that is called La.Nka in that area except La.Nka- DvIpa "Ceylon"? Is this word anyhow else associated with South India, is it known in ancient Tamil literature? I read that Vajrabodhi before going to Ceylon, SriVijaya and finaly China made pilgrimige to la.Nka mountain, what could that be? Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 25 00:45:47 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 16:45:47 -0800 Subject: Thomas Cleary Message-ID: <161227046863.23782.10395508075224181040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Petr Mares wrote: >Below is a short abstract from a recent (1987) article of a foremost >Chinese Buddhist scholar prof. Ba1 Zhou4. For many years he is >certainly one of the most knowledgable Chinese expert on Buddhism in >Tang Dynasty. This is just a short abstract of his long article (20pages) >on the cult of Guan Yin (Avalokiteshvara ) that appeared in Taiwanese >Chung-Hwa Buddhist Journal (1987 .03 ). I thought it may be interesting >as it mentions Potalaka in very recent article that is not available in >English. >Abstract of the article called "Guan Yin and Asian Buddhism": >Throughout East Asia Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva has been one of the >most popular divinities in the Mahayana pantheon. > [...] In addition, during the sixth century the famous >Mount P'u-t'o shan (Potala) in China became a famous spot of >pilgrimage associated with Kuan yin. Well, it was pointed out that there is NO evidence to assert that P'u t'o island (Chinese call it Mt. P'u t'o it seems) was famous already in SIXTH century. ------------------------------------------------------------ Petr Mares wrote: >Mr. Cleary is perfect example of putting the source into mist. He >does not let you know the edition and manuscripts he was using (I >doubt he used any) ... >but I know some of T. Cleary (including Avatamsaka) and there is >no doubt his works are easy to read, they are often entertaining but >they cannot in any case be called scholarly or critical. I read that Thomas Cleary got his PhD from Stanford university in Chinese literature. Some his academic publications are: i) Entry into the inconceivable: an introduction to Hua-yen Buddhism, University of Hawaii press, 1983, 1994 ii) Po-tuan Chang (10/11th C.), understanding reality: a Taoist alchemical classic, University of Hawaii press, 1987 iii)Dogen, Zen essays, University of Hawaii press, 1991 ... I quite doubt that Cleary does not know enough Chinese literature. Regards, SM _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 24 17:01:20 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 17:01:20 +0000 Subject: What's the sanskrit translation for "entrepreneur" ? (fwd) Message-ID: <161227046844.23782.2765832449013203178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Please copy answers, if any, to Ziel directly. I don't believe he is a member of this list.] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:46:12 +0100 From: Jerome Ziel Subject: What's the sanskrit translation for "entrepreneur" ? Dear Sir I am currently undertaking a research on the entrepreneur in several Asian countries, including India. That is why I would like to have some information about the various names that have been used in India to designate the "entrepreneur". Is it possible to go far backwards in time (back to the Middle Ages or even back to Antiquity). Thank you very much. Yours very faithfully, Jerome Ziel -- Jerome Ziel Laboratoire Redeploiement Industriel et Innovation (Universite du Littoral-Cote d'Opale) Maison de la Recherche en Sciences de l'Homme 21 quai de la Citadelle 59140 Dunkerque (France) T $BqM (J : +33 3 28 23 71 47 ; Fax : +33 3 28 23 71 10 email : ziel at univ-littoral.fr From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Feb 25 03:20:23 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 17:20:23 -1000 Subject: Potala(ka) etc In-Reply-To: <99386401.36d3bf33@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227046883.23782.18085228581918655973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > In that case, if the southern Tamilnadu/Kerala region had an > important role to play in the development of avalokitezvara cult, there could > not be any site other than potiyil as the basis for a legendary place of his. How about Sabarimalai? It fits the description "GuangMing Shan" (shining mountain), because one of its most famous features is the "makara jyothi" (a divine light or radiance which, devotees say, can be seen from a nearby mountain). Regards, Raja. PS: I have no opinion regarding Potalaka's location. I'm just mentioning another candidate. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Feb 24 22:33:37 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 17:33:37 -0500 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) Message-ID: <161227046858.23782.2546534113581512067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/24/99 9:55:48 AM Central Standard Time, lengqie at GMX.NET writes: > What does the Naancil Naadu means? Actually the word "Nan2" in > Nan2 tien1zhu1 and Nan2 Yin4du4 above was Chinese word for > "south". > I was just curious why someone would say that name of that area > should mean GuangMing = "Bright"? > > Is there anything that is called La.Nka in that area except La.Nka- > DvIpa "Ceylon"? Is this word anyhow else associated with South > India, is it known in ancient Tamil literature? I read that Vajrabodhi > before going to Ceylon, SriVijaya and finaly China made pilgrimige > to la.Nka mountain, what could that be? Ta. nAJcil corresponds to Sanskrit lAGgala. See DEDR 2907. If, indeed, the brightness referred to the country rather than the mountain, there is an explanation also. The larger country in which Potiyil was situated was ruled by Pandyas whose name has been sometimes interpreted as derived from Sanskrit pANDu meaning "white". The more immediate area including Potiyil was ruled by vEL chieftains of Ay dynasty during Classical Tamil period. The most famous of them was Ay aNTIran2. In later period, the coast to the western side of Potiyil was called vENATu (vEL + nATu), the country of vELs. Because of well-known Dravidian quantitative alternation, I have come across an alternate form in an inscription as veNNATu. This can be interpreted as veL + nATU. DEDR 5496(a) gives the meaning for "veL" as "white, pure, shining, bright". According to Sreedhara Menon's "A Survey of Kerala History", The Paliyam Copper Plate of Vikramaditya Varaguna (885-925), a later Ay king of South Kerala, "records the grant of an extensive landed property in the south to the celebrated Buddhist temple of Sri Mulavasam (Tirumulapadam)..." (p. 40) Regards S. Palaniappan From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Wed Feb 24 16:47:37 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 17:47:37 +0100 Subject: the word "potiyil" inside MaNimEkalai (Was Re: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD)) In-Reply-To: <19990224153427.1321.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046842.23782.2051838589645413899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A 07:34 24/02/99 -0800, vous avez ?crit : >Dear Dr. J.-L. Chevillard, > >Can you give us the places where Potiyam and Potiyil figures >in Sangam texts (eTTut tokai and pattup paaTTu)? Please. > >How many places Potiyil refers to Mt. Potiyil >and at how many places it refers to a "Public Hall". > >Thanks a bouquet! >SM > Dear Swaminathan Madhuresan, it will take a little time to check everything. For a starter, here is the answer for puRam, blindly based on the _Index of Puranaanuuru_ that was published in 1962 by V.I.Subramoniam (University of Kerala) (I do not [dare to] check) potiyil = public hall (ampalam) 52-13 375-3 390-19 potiyil = the mountain Potiyil 128-5 potiyam = the Potiya mountain 2-24 [... to be continued ...] -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD From lengqie at GMX.NET Wed Feb 24 17:21:13 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 18:21:13 +0100 Subject: Malay =? Guangming? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046846.23782.1251784383735779287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > the Malaya country translated as Kuang ming > > It is interesting to note that no such equivalence is listed by TSUJI et > al. in the best Sanskrit-Chinese dictionary (nominally Skt-Japanese, but > actually more helpful for its Chinese equivalents), nor in AKANUMA > Chizen's Proper Name dictionary s.v. Malaya. It is interesting that small Eitel's Chinese Buddhist Dictionary says on page 202. GuangMing Shan = "The shining hill or monastery, a name of the abode of Kuan Yin, said to be in India, and called Potala". (Eitel gives no references). But it is strange that in the recent largest Chinese Buddhist Dictionary - eight volume FoGuang there is no GuangMingShan mentioned with that meaning. There it is a Buddhist name for one mountain in South West China called E2Mei2 Shan. (page 4087). And GuangMingShan is also mentioned under heading CintAmaNicakra as Guang1Ming2Shan1 shou3 (Shou=hand). (page 2373) It is related to Avalokiteshvara but not to South India. Can perhaps Nobumi Iyanaga look up the phrase Guang1Ming2Shan1 in the Taisho? Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From sogbs at CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU Wed Feb 24 08:01:18 1999 From: sogbs at CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU (Geoffrey Samuel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 19:01:18 +1100 Subject: Potala(ka) etc Message-ID: <161227046820.23782.14029673620157385681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This may be a little outdated now - I've had some trouble posting to INDOLOGY, now resolved - but I'm sending it in case still of interest: N. Ganesan referred to my earlier postings in relation to Potala(ka), Tirupati etc. I have stayed out of the discussion since 1997 mainly because of lack of time, but also because the issues are both political and emotionally loaded for many participants, and intrinsically difficult to decide. However, since 1997 I have been able to look at the book by D.C. Ahir which was the source of the Crystal Mirror reference to Venkatesvar as Potala, and also at some of the other authors (Jamanadas, Kulkarni) who make strong claims for previous Buddhist identities of major South Indian Hindu shrines (see list at end), and perhaps I can make some points at this stage: (1) It seems clear that Tamil Nadu and Kerala (and for that matter most of present day South and East India) were not in any real sense "Hindu" before around C4-C5 CE. By "Hindu" (I would really prefer a less loaded label such as "Vedic-Brahmanical") I mean that a major ritual role in the community is performed by Brahmin priests, and that Brahmanical values have a dominant presence within the society as a whole. The extensive settlements of Brahmins in South and East India from C4-C5 onwards is a dividing line here. Before this time, the Vedic-Brahmanical complex was restricted mainly to parts of present-day North India and Pakistan. The date may be arguable - it was certainly earlier in e.g. parts of Andhra, and some individual temples further south may have acquired Brahmin priests well before C4 - but the process is not. It took place under the patronage of local rulers and it was associated with the adoption of a Brahmanical ideology of kingship and, I assume, with the installation of Brahmin priests at major shrines of deities who were thereby progressively assimilated to Brahmanical deities. (2) There was a previous period during which South and East Indian rulers patronised Buddhists and Jains. Presumably some at least of the major deity shrines which go back to this period were for a while under Buddhist and Jain management (this seems to have been the case at Kanchipuram, for example) and the deities were given Buddhist or Jain identities during that time. Some of these places may have been specifically Buddhist or Jain foundations. But given the extent to which the deities of major temples still today have local identities which are only partially assimilated to Brahmanical mythology (a few S Indian examples are Minaksi at Madurai; Cidambaram; Sucindram; the major Murugan temples etc etc etc), my guess is that many of them pre-existed Buddhist and Jain influence in the region. Their origins are presumably in local and regional cults for which we no longer have direct evidence, scattered references in early Tamil literature aside. As is probably clear from (1), I see no reason to call these cults "Hindu". (3) From say C4 to C12 (later in some areas) the situation was pluralistic. Courts patronised Brahmins, Buddhist and Jains (and for that matter Saivas, Vaisnavas, Mahayana and Theravada Buddhists, etc etc) and were rarely exclusive about it, though one or another religious party might gain a temporary ascendancy. Major temples and shrines - particularly, perhaps, major centres of pilgrimage - were objects of multiple interpretation. They still are today in places like Sri Lanka (Kataragama, Adam's Peak). the Kathmandu Valley (Bungadhya = Avalokitesvara and Matsyendranatha) or Lahul (Triloknath = Siva and Avalokitesvara). As Jacob Kinnard notes in a recent article on Hindu and Buddhist readings of Bodh-Gaya, Indian images are characterised by "multivalent fluidity" (JAAR 66) - in some cases extending to Islamic and Christian interpretations as well. We can still see traces of this overall situation in the relics of earlier identities of Venkatesvar at Tirumala - especially the well-known story of Ramanuja's identifying the Venkatesvar image as Visnu - and for that matter at many other places (Jagannath at Puri and Lal Shahbaz Qalandar in Sindh are two other interesting examples). (4) What went on at the village and household level (as opposed to court and urban elite groups) between C4 to C12 is another question. This side of Indian religion is still far from completely Brahmanised even today, though bhakti-style devotionalism and other later developments have certainly had a pervasive effect over the centuries, helping to produce the mix we now call "Hindu". With the exception of groups (e.g. Brahmins and affiliated sub-castes) with a strong commitment to Brahmanical interpretations, I imagine most people were more interested in major regional shrines as sources of spiritual power that could be tapped for pragmatic purposes than as places that were specifically Buddhist, Hindu etc. (5) Major pilgrimage sites - particularly the Sakta pithas - were places used by sadhus and renunciates of all traditions. E.g. the Srisailam-Sriparvata area in Andhra was a major centre for both Saiva and Buddhist tantrics and alchemists, and there was plenty of mutual borrowing between them. The Kadri area near Mangalore in Karnataka may have been similar. Again, such sites throughout South Asia were part of a wider system of interactions which also included Muslims, Taoists etc. (See e.g. David White's *The Alchemical Body* and Mike Walter's articles on the Hindu-Muslim-Buddhist alchemist Jabir.) (6) However, the specific arguments given for previous Buddhist identities of Tirupati, Sabarimala etc by Ahir, Kulkarni et al. seem to me to be at most suggestive and far from conclusive. Shaving the head *may* be a Buddhist survival, but then again it may not be. Equally, the celebration of Balaji's birthday on the same date as the birth of the Buddha (in Hindu tradition) is hardly decisive. Other arguments are equally weak. It is all too clear that Ahir, Jamanadas et al. very much *want* Venkatesvara and other major South Indian shrines to have been formerly Buddhist, and that any argument will do if it serves this purpose. There is very little solid evidence. For example, we do not even have a proper iconographical description of the Venkatesvara cult-image in its unadorned state - Jamanadas is reduced to citing somebody else's opinion that it resembles a Padmapani image at Ajanta. In any case, for the reasons given above, I think we should be wary of treating any major South Indian shrine as having been *exclusively* Buddhist - or exclusively anything else - prior to the 11th or 12th centuries. Venkatesvara probably had multiple identities for many centuries. (7) Finally, as for Potalaka - given that the evidence still seems to point to a "real" location of Potalaka at a major mountain shrine in South India as well as a more visionary location - I think we have to accept that we are still a long way from any conclusive identification of where it might have been. I don't think (see point 3) that we have to assume that it would be somewhere which we regard today as "primarily a Buddhist centre". Kanchipuram, which we know was a major Buddhist centre for many centuries, has relatively little surviving Buddhist material. Unfortunately, the descriptions we have all seem to be too vague to be much help, and many of them (as with Taranatha) date from a period when Potalaka was a place of legend rather than reality. Potalaka certainly *could* have been Tirupati, on our present (lack of) evidence - certainly the fact that Venkatesvar's identity was eventually fixed as Visnu rather than Siva isn't enough to eliminate it. Experientially, Venkatesvara seems to me to be much the same kind of compassionate saviour deity as Avalokitesvara in the older textual material, and it would be nice to think that this most important of Buddhist shrines in South India was continuing its activity under a new name and management. But we just don't know, and I don't find the alternative identifications which have been advanced particularly persuasive either, unless someone can come up with major new epigraphic or textual evidence. Geoffrey Samuel - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Some authors arguing for the Buddhist identities of South Indian shrines: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ahir, D.C. (1989) Heritage of Buddhism. Delhi: B.R. Publishing. Ahir, D.C. (1992) Buddhism in South India. Delhi: Sri Satguru. Jamanadas, K. (1991) Tirupati Balaji was a Buddhist Shrine. Chandrapur: Sanjivan. Kulkarni, A.L. (1980) Buddha, the Trimurti and Modern Hinduism. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Geoffrey Samuel, Department of Sociology and Anthropology, University of Newcastle, NSW 2308, AUSTRALIA Telephone: Work (02) 4921 5698; Home (02) 4957 0244; Fax +61-2-4921 6902 Email sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au WWW: http://www.newcastle.edu.au/department/so/samuel.htm * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU Thu Feb 25 02:47:17 1999 From: dlusthau at MAILER.FSU.EDU (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 21:47:17 -0500 Subject: Thomas Cleary In-Reply-To: <19990225004547.18234.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046881.23782.7754729214167602806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read that Thomas Cleary got his PhD from Stanford university > in Chinese literature. The Cleary Brothers got PhDs from Harvard, if I am not mistaken, and collaborated on a translation of the Zen classic, the Blue Cliff Record, which is a nice translation. Since then, Thomas has not maintained what most scholars would consider academic rigor. His translations are fast and loose, often informed by concerns and ideas that are not in the original text. He doesn't translate terms consistently, and uses odd and misleading equivalents for technical terms (e.g., on one page of Entry into the Inconceivable he used three or four different English 'translations' for fa [dharma], none of which would signal to an informed reader that the original text said fa). He omits sections without informing the reader, rarely provides citations for sources, etc. His books sell well, and he certainly has a following, but not among academics. Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From lengqie at GMX.NET Wed Feb 24 20:52:40 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 21:52:40 +0100 Subject: P'u t'o island known ONLY from 9th century AD In-Reply-To: <19990224195752.24655.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046855.23782.9334830508919582639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Petr Mares suggested going thru' Dunhuong manuscripts. > Experts have informed me that there is almost NO chance > that those mss. will talk of P'u t'o island as Guanyin's home. Dear Naga Ganesan The suggestion about DunHuang manuscript was meant just for PuTuoShan. I have personally find many manuscripts of La.Nkavatara different in their DunHuang version. Most of the current Buddhist text will not be based on older than 11trh century manuscripts while in DunHuang there are thousands of Buddhist manuscripts as old as beginning of the fifth century. In case of Lankavatara often they differ from the received version. I do not know about Avatamsaka and XiYuJi but they may differ too. I already said that I do not know what texts speaks about PuTuoShan at all. The suggestion was just for seeing how much will the text change through the centuries when commentaries become part of what you consider the base text and that make you believe some words are far older than ithey really are. All over the world here are thousands of inidentified Buddhist manuscripts from DunHuang stemming from 5th century on disscusing all kinds of Buddhist topics. It is nice someone can make definitive statement about them. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From lengqie at GMX.NET Wed Feb 24 21:00:53 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 22:00:53 +0100 Subject: Cultures' abilities In-Reply-To: <19990224193611.5270.rocketmail@web305.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046856.23782.14422139602401431147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > "Some cultures ... more .. write poetry" - Does this refer to China? > "more manpower ... recursive coding" - Does this refer to India? > > If so, this is only a *subjectve* opinion, I am afraid. The script with thousands of different characters is predestined for the calligraphy and the poetry, so is the tonal language. How can that be compared with Indian poetry which has no visual and tonal form? Regards Petr Mares From v.k.kumar at EXCITE.COM Thu Feb 25 07:38:21 1999 From: v.k.kumar at EXCITE.COM (keerthi kumar) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 23:38:21 -0800 Subject: Dravidian:mother of IE Message-ID: <161227046888.23782.16194809672004183570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the List, Today I have posted Discovery of Dravidian as the common source of Indo-European at to which I wish to draw your attention. The text constitutes three chapters. I: Dravidian Birthmarks on Indo-European; II: More Proof; III: The Question of the Second Millennium. In addition to the Dravidian identity of the common source of Indo-European, what comes out loud and clear is that a language born out of the experience of an ancient, influential, and original people does not cease to exist, and when its words are used in the same or derived form or forms by various speakers to express their experience, they all share the basic human experience that is common to all of them. Another fact which makes itself clear is that the portryal of an ancient language by scholars may not necessarily be its real portrait, because their portryal of it necessarily depends upon their degree of its exploration and correct understanding. In the case of Dravidian, the text makes it clear that Dravidian has been hardly explored, let alone exposed fully and correctly. Yet another fact which is axiomatic in the text is that each language has its own rate of growth, development, and endurance, and, therefore, the habit of applying the same scale that is derived by measuring the growth and development of one or the other language to all languages, especially to such an ancient and unique language as Dravidian does not yield accurate results. Dravidian makes it clear that it is like an extraordinarily old oak tree the seed of which germinated such a long time ago that the entire lifetimes of other trees which are born out of its own seeds amount to only a portion of its lifetime. I think that it is a good thing that the Discovery of Dravidian as the common source of Indo-European brings these lessons into focus on this eve of the Third Millennium, for they should have been realized and emphasized quite some time ago so that we could have accomplished much more in the field of languages than we actually have. I also think that it would be a wise thing to realize again, and not forget it this time, how in the end we all belong to the same tree either as the speakers of the same language in its various forms or, going back in time, as apes or monkeys. Always wishing the best of everything for all. Sincerely, V.Keerthi Kumar (). _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Feb 25 06:22:19 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 01:22:19 -0500 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) Message-ID: <161227046886.23782.6839585721715705422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/24/99 7:08:28 PM Central Standard Time, narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > White and bright are absolutely different. White is a color. Brightness > refers > to light energy emitted. You can have bright red, bright green etc and > there can be dull whites. That is fine. As anybody knows, there can be variations in the semantic ranges of words with similar meanings. Notwithstanding the difference between color and brightness referred to above, the root "veL" I had cited included the meanings "white, pure, shining, bright". Because there was an overlap with "pANDu" in the sense of white, I gave that also for completeness so that Petr Mares can have all the relevant information associated with the Malaya country so that he can choose whatever word, if any, fits his Chinese word well. Regards S. Palaniappan From lengqie at GMX.NET Thu Feb 25 01:16:06 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 02:16:06 +0100 Subject: Thomas Cleary In-Reply-To: <19990225004547.18234.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046873.23782.2961891784077287329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I quite doubt that Cleary does not know enough Chinese literature. > He certainly does, but his are the populistic translation without any criticism and references to the variants and different interpretations. You can ask any Chinese linguist or anybody able to read the originals of what he translates. I can give you dozens of examples from his various books. He knows Chinese language as well as literature but the bulky volume of his production makes it not critical. If anybody is interested indetails I will be glad to do it in private mail as it is beyond the Indology scope and I would like to not bother with it here. Regards Petr Mares From lengqie at GMX.NET Thu Feb 25 01:25:08 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 02:25:08 +0100 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990225063347.008792a0@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227046875.23782.5692417877884773802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > At 05:33 PM 2/24/99 EST, you wrote: > > > >If, indeed, the brightness referred to the country rather than the > >mountain, there is an explanation also. The larger country in which > >Potiyil was > situated > >was ruled by Pandyas whose name has been sometimes interpreted as derived > from > >Sanskrit pANDu meaning "white". > > White and bright are absolutely different. White is a color. Brightness > refers to light energy emitted. You can have bright red, bright green etc > and there can be dull whites. That is rihgt - GuangMing means bright in sense of shining. In fact the Chinese mountain EMei Shan in Sichuan is called by Buddhists GuangMing Shan due to the special phenomenon known as Buddha's aureole - rainbow rings, produced by reflection of water particles, attach themselves to a person's shadow in a cloud bank bellow the summit. Devout Buddhist are reported to jump over the cliff making suicide believing it is a call from beyond. There are iron poles and and chain railings since the Ming dynasty there to prevent these suicides. Sincerely Petr Mares > > regards, > > sarma. > From lengqie at GMX.NET Thu Feb 25 01:42:59 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 02:42:59 +0100 Subject: Thomas Cleary Message-ID: <161227046877.23782.13393694215801846839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Below is the review of the Cleary's book you have mentioned by Fabrizio Pregadio. I can't more agree with prof. Predagio about Cleary's style. It may be usefull for the readers of the Avatamsaka and parts of XuYuoJi commentary translated by Thomas Cleary to see his method of translating commented by excelent Sinologue from Italy. Thomas Cleary, Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Sourcebook Boston and London: Shambala, 1991; xxvii, 280 pages, $ 19.00. Fabrizio Pregadio Adapted from a review published in Journal of Chinese Religions 21 (1993): 154-158. Vitality, Energy, Spirit aims to provide a historical overview of neidan literature, but also includes translations from related sources. The book is arranged in a general introduction followed by eight main sections. The materials translated extend from early texts (Laozi, Zhuangzi, Huainan zi, Wenzi, and a collection of stories mostly drawn from the Liezi) to short selections from writings of modern and contemporary Taoists. The bulk of the anthology is devoted to the Southern and Northern lineages of Song and Yuan Taoism, to samples of Ming works attributed to the semi-legendary Zhang Sanfeng, and to three commentaries written on earlier texts by the Qing neidan master, Liu Yiming. The translated sources mainly deal with the principles rather than the practices of neidan, but Cleary provides at the same time much -- actually too much -- background material. Inclusion of selections from the Laozi and Zhuangzi is commendable, but the passages on cosmogony in both texts, that are crucial to the neidan doctrines, are omitted. Elsewhere, the passages selected from a text often are not the best suited to represent them, or even to elucidate the general theme of the anthology. For example, both the Yuqing jinsi Qinghua biwen (Secret Text of Qinghua, from the Golden Box of the Jade Purity) and Chen Zhixu's Jindan dayao (Great Essentials of the Golden Elixir) include lucid sections on jing, qi, and shen (the eponymous "vitality, energy and spirit"). Relevant sections in the Jindan dayao, in particular, would have helped to explicate the meaning of these concepts in neidan. Cleary has made better choices with such texts as the Guizhong zhinan (Compass for Peering into the Center) by the Yuan author Chen Chongsu, and Liu Yiming's commentary to the Yinfu jing (Book for Joining with Obscurity). Liu Yiming's commentaries to the Baizi bei (Hundred-Character Tablet) and the Xiyou ji (Journey to the West) also are included. These three works add to Cleary's previous translations of Liu Yiming's texts, and he deserves credit for continuing to bring this great neidan master to the attention of Western readers. The translations are smooth and pleasant to read, but the price paid for this accomplishment becomes apparent on comparing them to the original texts. Examples taken from the chapter devoted to the Guizhong zhinan (pp. 161-174) may suffice. The first juan of this text describes the neidan practice, arranged into nine steps or stages; the second juan is devoted to explanations of three important concepts of neidan, those of "Mysterious Female," "Medicinal Substances," and "Fire Times." Cleary provides an almost complete English version of the second juan. In his translation, the list of synonyms for the term "Mysterious Female" omits "Room of geng and xin" (gengjia shi) and "Door of jia and yi" (jiayi hu). The passage that describes the location of this central point of the inner body lacks the sentence "it is below qian, above kun, west of zhen, and east of dui." A quotation from Cui Xifan also is omitted. The sentence "Fire is fundamentally the Southern direction, it is the trigram li, and is associated with the Heart" is shortened to "Fire is symbolic of mind." These examples are typical of Cleary's tendency to elide expressions, e.g. those related to cosmology, that would require an explanation. Cleary detests footnotes, even when they could help his readers to understand what he translates. In other cases, the translations blur the meaning of the text. The sentence jing fei chang jing is rendered as "the vitality is not ordinary vitality," which does not make clear that the second jing refers to the material aspect (in human beings, sperm and menstrual blood) of the first, that denotes the original prima materia. The meaning of the sentence translated as "Rouse the breeze to operate the fire" is altered by the suppression of the reference to the trigrams sun and kun. Other translations are simply odd or inaccurate. Thus fu ("prefecture") is translated once as "capital" and once as "place," heixi ("black tin") is "black lead," and a xianren ("immortal" or "transcendent") becomes a "wizard." The sentence yiwei shui zhong jin ("the one ingredient, metal within water") is rendered as "the uniformly flavored metal within water". Cleary obviously is a gifted translator, but the quality of his works could be enhanced if more care were taken. Instead, readers of the Sourcebook are left with mere translations arduous to understand. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 25 13:28:15 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 05:28:15 -0800 Subject: Parvata in VP 2.486 Message-ID: <161227046898.23782.10222494012443986125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I knew that there is an attempt to hyjack Nagarjuna to tamilnadu when >Ganesan was posting about Madhura having name Uragapuram. So many >places have multiple names. That itself will not be sufficient to >stake claims. Dear Mr. Sarma, Did I say ever Nagarjuna belonged to Tamilnadu??? But, I remember reading that his chief disciple's ashes were found near Kanchipuram. Also, Vajrabodhi comes from Malaya country and was a Pallava courtier. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Feb 25 00:40:24 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 05:40:24 +0500 Subject: Potala(ka) etc In-Reply-To: <99386401.36d3bf33@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227046865.23782.822561058004327853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:58 AM 2/24/99 EST, you wrote: >Not only Classical Tamil texts pair up Himalaya and Potiyil. Dear Sri Palaniappa, We cannot identify Potiyil or for that matter any other mountain as Potalaka on the basis of the praise showered by the local poets on that. Even if we stipulate that the tamil poets considered Potiyil as Mount Everest, that does not automatically make it Potalaka. I request the people on this thread to confine themselves to facts suitable to the problem and not on virtues of the places of their choice. Some people have been waxing eloquent on the beauty of Malaya. We are not selecting a tourist spot or Holiday Resort but a historical place. That can be done only on the basis of hard facts and their most probable inerpretation. I think that we can ask for this because this will less taxing on the list members. regards, sarma. >Regards >S. Palaniappan > > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 25 13:42:23 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 05:42:23 -0800 Subject: naa.dii (was: Paishaacika Sanskrit?) Message-ID: <161227046900.23782.10524481132191846631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Gantsen, There are several families of Saiva Vellalas practising Naa.dii in TiruvaanaikkAval in Tiruchy Town and Vaidheeswaran Koil in Thanjavur district. This tradition is their hereditary profession. I am not aware of naaDii as a family tradition among Smartas. For the hold of astrology on another section of Tamil society, please read: R. S. Perinbanayagam, The karmic theater: self, society and astrology in Jaffna, U. Massachussetts press, 1982, 212p. It will be interesting. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 25 10:48:10 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 05:48:10 -0500 Subject: Apparent sandhi irregularities in the Bhagavad Gita Message-ID: <161227046890.23782.17693152042772717823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Charles Wikner Wrote >On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Dermot Killingley wrote: > >> > Verse 10.41 "tejoMzasambhavan". >> >> This is also insignificant, but for a different reason. There is >> considerable variation in practice with avagraha. It's treated as >> an aid to the reader rather than an integral part of the text, which >> explains why some people use it where word-initial "a" is elided >> after word-final "A". >> >> But in the interests of consistency, I'd advise you to keep the >> avagraha in the above line in your edition. > >Presumably that is transliterated as "tejo'Mzasambhavan". >However, two editions to hand that have the avagraha >(Sargeant, Sastry), have the bindu above the "jo" rather >than the avagraha. Although this makes no difference to >the sound, is it in fact a typo (it seems odd to append >an anusvAra to an avagraha), or is it correct (in which >case the transliteration is asymmetrical). Any offers? > >Regards, Charles. Whitney addresses this question in his grammar section 16 b. "If the elided initial-vowel is nasal, and has the anusvara-sign (70, 71) written above, this is usually and more properly transferred to the eliding vowel; but sometimes it is written instead over the avagraha-sign". Regards, Harry ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Feb 25 01:17:10 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 06:17:10 +0500 Subject: Parvata in VP 2.486 In-Reply-To: <19990224162731.8712.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046868.23782.11003945523761401362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:27 AM 2/24/99 -0800, you wrote: >Dear Indologists, > >I was browsing the Indology webpage. There, I saw a VERY INTERESTING >article entitled as Parvata, potiyil, and zrI-parvata: >(Some remarks by N. Ganesan). > >Its URL is: >http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/ganesan-parvata.html > >This is totally new and a fresh look at VP 2.486. > Dear Sri Madhuresan, I had look at the above and did not find any thing fresh. Sriparvata is referred to as Parvata has been shown very effectively on the list if not contemporarily. We can always extrapolate the usage backwards. But Sri Palaniappan or anybody else has not shown that there is a single reference to Malaya being referrred to as Parvata in sanskrit texts so far. For me the whole thing appears to be absolutely twisted thinking. I knew that there is an attempt to hyjack Nagarjuna to tamilnadu when Ganesan was posting about Madhura having name Uragapuram. So many places have multiple names. That itself will not be sufficient to stake claims. Present the evidence to the satisfaction of scholars. regards, sarma. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Feb 25 01:33:47 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 06:33:47 +0500 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046871.23782.18272186192237290358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:33 PM 2/24/99 EST, you wrote: > >If, indeed, the brightness referred to the country rather than the mountain, >there is an explanation also. The larger country in which Potiyil was situated >was ruled by Pandyas whose name has been sometimes interpreted as derived from >Sanskrit pANDu meaning "white". White and bright are absolutely different. White is a color. Brightness refers to light energy emitted. You can have bright red, bright green etc and there can be dull whites. regards, sarma. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Feb 25 02:08:23 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 07:08:23 +0500 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046879.23782.3224016939999334471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gaungming = bright Here is the evidence that Sri parvata is the mountain that is being referred to. According to MMR Sri= to burn, flame, diffuse light, diffusing light or radiance. I think that settles it when combined with the fact that Vajarabodhi was the desciple of Nagabodhi a resident of Sriparvata. Essentials of Buddhist Philosophy by Takakasu. About Vajrabodhi -------------------------------------------------------------------- For seven years he studied the Vajra-sekhara (Diamond-head) and other mystical texts under Nagabodhi inSouth India. --------------------------------------------------------------------- From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 25 15:50:10 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 07:50:10 -0800 Subject: Potala(ka) etc Message-ID: <161227046906.23782.5097414743197973013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/24/99 9:21:14 PM Central Standard Time, raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU writes: > How about Sabarimalai? It fits the > description "GuangMing Shan" (shining mountain), > because one of its most famous features > is the "makara jyothi" (a divine light > or radiance which, devotees say, > can be seen from a nearby mountain). Is there any textual attestation or archaeological evidence either for the presence of Aiyappan cult or makara jyothi at Sabarimalai datable to the time of first Chinese translation of Gandavyuha? V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Feb 25 19:45:30 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 09:45:30 -1000 Subject: Potala(ka) etc In-Reply-To: <19990225155010.11930.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046918.23782.14398052532427816330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > Is there any textual attestation or archaeological evidence either > for the presence of Aiyappan cult or makara jyothi at Sabarimalai > datable to the time of first Chinese translation of Gandavyuha? I don't know. If anyone does know, hopefully they will post the information... Regards, Raja. From pmg6s at SERVER2.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Thu Feb 25 15:19:55 1999 From: pmg6s at SERVER2.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 10:19:55 -0500 Subject: MBh-Ramayana Conference Message-ID: <161227046902.23782.11730810129060402380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Can anyone tell me something about the "International Conference-Seminar on Ramayana and Mahabharata" sponsored by the International Association for Tamil Research, to be held in Kuala Lumpur in October? I received their little brochure about it, but no one I have asked seems to know much. Are any of you attending? >Thanks! Patricia Greer ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 25 19:09:34 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 11:09:34 -0800 Subject: Potala(ka) etymology Message-ID: <161227046916.23782.1114444346189102375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Petr Mares wrote: >It is interesting that small Eitel's Chinese Buddhist Dictionary says >on page 202. GuangMing Shan = "The shining hill or monastery, a >name of the abode of Kuan Yin, said to be in India, and called >Potala". (Eitel gives no references). Lokesh Chandra, like scores of other reputed scholars in 20th century, takes Avalokitezvara's abode, Mt. Potalaka in the Malaya mountains. This was done first by Xuan Zang. Let us read what Lokesh Chandra, a foremost Buddhism expert has to say on Potala etymology: Lokesh Chandra, Origin of the Avalokitezvara of Potala, Kailash: a journal of Himalayan studies, v.7, no. 1, 1979, p. 5-25 L. Chandra, p. 6 [Begin quote] Buddhabhadra(420 AD)'s rendering is 'Brilliance'. It refers to its etymology: Tamil *pottu (potti-)* 'to light (as a fire)', Kota pot- (poty-) id., Kannada pottu n. 'flaming', Ka. pottige 'flaming, flame', Tulu potta 'hot, burning', (Burrow/Emeneau 1961:298 no. 3691). In Kannada analogous words are: pottige 'flaming, flame', pottisu 'to cause to burn with flame, to kindle, to light', pottu 'to begin to burn with flame, to be kindled, to catch fire, to flame', pottu '1. flaming, 2. sun 3 time' (Kittel 1894:1020). [End quote] I have some quotes from Sangam texts where pottal is used for lighting a flame. eri potti en2 neJcam - kalittokai 34.11 iRai iRai pottiRRu tI - kali. 145.58 kATu tIp piRappa kan2ai eri potti - cilappatikAram 4.122 tiNNin2 tiruki tI azal potti - maNimEkalai 2.53 So, potti for lighting a flame is used in Tamil for atleast 2000 years. According to Lokesh Chandra, this Ta. 'potti- pottu-, pottal' forms the basis for Guangming. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 25 11:21:29 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 11:21:29 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: Parvata in VP 2.486 In-Reply-To: <19990224162731.8712.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046892.23782.8579578191384668753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops, I'm sorry. I attributed this submission to Dr Ganesan in error; it is by Dr S. Palaniappan. I've corrected the text accordingly. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/library London NW1 2BE, England. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 25 11:34:00 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 11:34:00 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN] general UK/USA internet problem Message-ID: <161227046894.23782.739551511788316858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Members who have had difficulty with email/www browsing may be interested in the following bulletin: -- Earlier this week there were problems with the Internet. The trouble began on Sunday when a transatlantic cable was severed and back-up systems also failed. This left Britain's largest network, the Joint Academic Network (Janet), unable to communicate with North America for over 24 hours but full service is now available. -- DW From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 25 20:12:28 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 12:12:28 -0800 Subject: Potala(ka) etc Message-ID: <161227046920.23782.12240140795021557791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > Is there any textual attestation or archaeological evidence either > for the presence of Aiyappan cult or makara jyothi at Sabarimalai > datable to the time of first Chinese translation of Gandavyuha? N. S. Raja replied: I don't know. If anyone does know, hopefully they will post the information... FYI, There is none. N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From LubinT at MADISON.ACAD.WLU.EDU Thu Feb 25 12:57:17 1999 From: LubinT at MADISON.ACAD.WLU.EDU (Tim Lubin) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 12:57:17 +0000 Subject: Alexis Sanderson's e-mail address? In-Reply-To: <199901280000.TAA19026@liberty.uc.wlu.edu> Message-ID: <161227046914.23782.16744407859118360530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone inform me of Alexis Sanderson's e-mail address (assuming he has one)? Many thanks in advance. Timothy Lubin Assistant Professor Department of Religion Washington and Lee University Lexington, VA 24450 (540) 463-8146 (off.), 463-8055 (home), 463-8498 (fax) LUBIN.T at WLU.EDU From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Thu Feb 25 12:16:29 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 13:16:29 +0100 Subject: the word "potiyil" in classical Tamil (was Re: the word "potiyil" inside MaNimEkalai) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990224174737.006e9b9c@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <161227046896.23782.857009506053391907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A 17:47 24/02/99 +0100, vous avez ?crit : >>Can you give us the places where Potiyam and Potiyil figures >>in Sangam texts (eTTut tokai and pattup paaTTu)? Please. >> > >How many places Potiyil refers to Mt. Potiyil >>and at how many places it refers to a "Public Hall". >> This time I am sending the data for Akam (after taking care of PuRam and MaNimEkalai in my previous postings). I am drawing from an unpublished draft translation of akanaanuuRu that was made in 1975 by the late V.M.Subramanya Ayyar and that is kept (in draft form) in the French Institute Indology Library in Pondicherry. To summarize, the word "potiyil" is used 3 times to refer to Mount Potiyil (examples M1, M2, M3) 6 times to refer to a public hall (or a temple?) (examples H1, H2, H3, H4, H5, H6) Here are the quotations: M1 (25-20) vil kezhu taTak kaip potiyiR celvan2, polan tErt titiyan2 "titiyan2, who has a golden chariot, who is the chieftain of potiyil and who has big hands holding a bow" M2 (138-7) ten2n2avan2 potiyil aruJ cimai izhitarum Arttu varal aruviyin2 "springs that descend down roaring from the inaccessible heights of potiyil, which belongs to ten2n2avan2" M3 (322-14) pukal arum potiyil pOla "[she who afflicted us is] as difficult [to attain] as the potiyil is difficult to enter. [that potiyil has high peaks which are not easy to climb even by the kuRavar-s who try to cut the honey-comb to collect the sweet honey which is at the topmost point of the rock. it has adjacent hills where the tigers join together ...] [that potiyil belongs to titiyan2 who possesses swift moving chariots ...] H1 = 167-20 H2 = 251-8 H3 = 287-5 H4 = 307-11 H5 = 373-4 H6 = 377-10 As in the case of maNimEkalai, it seems to me impossible to draw any conclusion from this litterary evidence regarding a buddhist claim on Mount Potiyil. These poets are more interested in love and war than in religious beliefs ... Others may differ ... Best wishes -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) P.S. When I get the time, I'll try to go through the other classics, unless somebody else gets the time ;-) to do that necessary job before me. From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Feb 25 08:46:12 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 13:46:12 +0500 Subject: Chih Sheng (688-740 AD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046907.23782.14595192931854311618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:22 AM 2/25/99 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 2/24/99 7:08:28 PM Central Standard Time, >narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > >> White and bright are absolutely different. White is a color. Brightness >> refers >> to light energy emitted. You can have bright red, bright green etc and >> there can be dull whites. > >That is fine. As anybody knows, there can be variations in the semantic ranges >of words with similar meanings. Notwithstanding the difference between color >and brightness referred to above, the root "veL" I had cited included the >meanings "white, pure, shining, bright". Because there was an overlap with >"pANDu" in the sense of white, I gave that also for completeness so that Petr >Mares can have all the relevant information associated with the Malaya country >so that he can choose whatever word, if any, fits his Chinese word well. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > > I am soorry to say Mr. Palaniappa that we were not discussing the meaning of "vel" but of "gaungming". The multiple meanings of "vel" do not in any way contribute to determining the meaning of word "gaungming". Now we have "Gaungming mountain" is a direct translation of Sriparvata and I think we can now progress. regards, sarma. From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Thu Feb 25 20:08:48 1999 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 15:08:48 -0500 Subject: Yet another areal feature in SA languages? Message-ID: <161227046924.23782.4655696891208001994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A coincidence, reading Bybee et al ``The evolution of grammar'' and Dahl, ``Tesne and aspect systems'' while trying to understand Vedic verbal syntax, led me to notice that a certain somewhat unfamiliar verbal category seems to be widespread in South Asia and that this may be relevant to the difference in Vedic between the so-called imperfect and the (sigmatic) aorist. This category is that ``completive'' (terminology of Bybee et al). According to Bybee et al, the common characteristics of the completive are that it emphasizes the object(s) were totally affected or consumed, or that the subjects or the objects are universally quantified; it has an emphatic/emotive/surprise value or is used for `hot news' items. However the first two are said to be atypical for forms which seem to be connected to auxillaries meaning `finish'. What is interesting is that several languages with such a construction have a distinct past used for narration or a separate perfective. The completive is apparently not the usual form used in narration. The languages in the sample used by Bybee et al (a stratified sample based on language grouping, with concessions to availability of reference grammars) with such a form are fairly widespread (but seemingly no European languages). But South Asia and nearby areas seem to be particularly well represented. Bybee et al report such forms from Chepang (Sino-Tibetean, Nepal, formed with je?), Kui (Dravidian, formed with de), Maithili (IA, formed with cuk/ja/ga) and Car (Nicobarese). This category seems to be common in Austroasiatic and Sino-Tibetean, being reported in Koho, Palaung, Loatian, Haka, Lahu and Cantonese, in addition to Chepang and Car mentioned above. Dahl gives the Japanese ``-te shimaru'' construction and the (modern) Tamil ``-viDu-'' construction as the examples of his ``conclusive''. The Japanese form seems to have the same properties as the completive of Bybee et al. The Tamil form seems to be a bit different but closer to ``completives'' than anything else. [The uses are discussed in detail in a paper by E. Annamalai in ``International J. Dravidian Ling.'' vol 11 pp.103--126. He also attempts to categorize this in terms of aspectology, using Comrie ``Aspect'' as a guide, but admittedly unsatisfactorily.] Here are my questions: Is such a category really widespread among South Asian languages? What about historically older stages? In particular, Sangam Tamil does not seem to use viDu as much as modern Tamil. But there is ``iDu'' which is (somewhat) common and seems to be similar; also the colloquial form ``vandiTTaa~'' looks like it can be from ``vandu+iTTaan''. Is iDu used an `auxiliary' in Sangam Tamil similar to modern Tamil viDu? Pali does not seem to have anything like this. On the other hand there seem to be some striking similarities with Vedic (sigmatic) aorist. How about Prakrits? Do they have any periphrastic constructions not discussed in the usual grammars that function like ``completives''? In a separate post, I will describe the Tamil -viDu construction to make this more understandable without reading the references mentioned. But I wanted to get the questions into a post that is not too long. -Nath From vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU Thu Feb 25 20:10:49 1999 From: vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 15:10:49 -0500 Subject: Tamil -viDu construction: a short description Message-ID: <161227046922.23782.8276444011129413043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To make the questions of my earlier post more understandable without a extended sojourn in the library, I will describe the uses of the Tamil viDu construction. Unfortunately, this makes the post too long and I hope that the advantages outweigh the use of bandwidth. I mostly follow Annamalai (loc cit other post), but with changes that reflect my intuition. Note that this form can have imperative, future, habitual etc. forms, but I will concentrate on the past. Firstly, -viDu can be used with process verbs, punctual verbs or state verbs. With process verbs, it emphasizes the termination of the event: ``naaRkaaliyaic ceydu viTTaan'' (he has finished making the chair). With punctual verbs, it emphasizes the occurrences: ``paambai midittu viTTEn'' (I stepped on a snake) [example from Dahl's questionnaire, text 168.1]. With state verbs it often emphasizes the entry into the state, or rather, the completion of the process that led to the state: ``tuungi viTTaan'' (he has fallen asleep). But not always: ``viiTTilEyE irundu viTTaan'' means `he just stayed home'. Here, of course, there is no antecedent process. The connotations can be broadly grouped under three headings. Firstly, it emphasizes the termination or occurrence of an event that requires, permits or explains further actions/events. This differs from the -iru construction in that the former emphasizes the event while the latter emphasizes the state. For example, if we are looking for a straight branch to cut, I would say ``inda kiLai vaLaind-irukkiradu.'' In this there is no implication that the branch got bent; it probably grew that way. If I say ``... vaLaindu viTTadu'' it means that either we were trying to bend one or more branches and it succeeded in this case, or that it was growing straight but became bent, due to, say weight of fruits. In particular, in narration, it is often used to emphasize pivotal events. Its use in text 168.1 of Dahl's questionnaire belongs here. To avoid misunderstandings, two things must be said: The normal form in narration is the simple past (vandaan); the -viDu construction is used to highlight pivotal events. This differs from perfectives in that perfectives narrate while imperfectives refer to background that do not advance the action. [Note the similarity to the contrast between the so-called imperfective and aorist of Vedic.] Secondly, the simple past, especially in narration, has an implicature of completion even if it is not an entailment. [Annamalai is a bit misleading in this point. However this is a crucial point in unerstanding why the Tamil system cannot be shoehorned into a perfective vs imperfective contrast, a mistake that seems to bite those who have not heard of non-Slavic style aspect.] The second category of use is to announce the occurance/completion of expected events. This is related to the translation of texts 53.1 and 54.1 in Dahl's questionnaire. In both cases, the sentence to be translated is ``My brother has read this book.'' In the first the context is that the interlocutor wants to give him a book to read from a collection, but doesn't know which books he has read; in the second, the interlocutor is complaining that my brother never seems to finish any book. ``paDittu viTTaan'' would be appropriate if my brother is currently engaged in a program of reading the books in question. But it would be quite incongruous to me if there is no such expectation, say if my brother read the book before any contact with the interlocutor. In that case I would say ``inda puttagattaip paDitt-irukkiRaan.'' [Dahl says that the first batch of informants were recruited from students in Swedish classes for foreign students. This may have skewed their interpretation of the context.] I can give couple of more examples to make things clearer, but will stop to avoid absurdly long posts. The third use is to mark anteriority. Thus ``He left before I could talk to him'' would be translated as ``naan pecuvadaRkuL cenRu viTTaan.'' The use of the indeclinable participle viTTu also belongs here: ``naDandu vandaan'' means ``came on foot'' while ``naDandu viTTu vandaan'' means ``he went on a stroll and then came''. Interestingly enough, the -iru construction can have inferential connotations, like (middle) Vedic perfect. But such a development seems to be common enough elsewhere. -Nath From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Feb 25 21:39:15 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 16:39:15 -0500 Subject: Yet another areal feature in SA languages? In-Reply-To: <001601be60fa$f5779d20$7671fe8c@raol.lucent.com> Message-ID: <161227046928.23782.13994871368201194481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > a certain somewhat unfamiliar >verbal category seems to be widespread in South Asia and that this may >be relevant to the difference in Vedic between the so-called imperfect >and the (sigmatic) aorist. The difference in aspect between the * imperfective aspect ( expressed by present stem, e.g. imperfect: a-ga-ccha-t; type of verbs: durative) and * perfective aspect (expressed by aorist stem, a-gan-(t), a-gam-a-t etc., not just the sigmatic aorist : a-gaM-s-/ agam-iS-) type of verbs: terminative, inchoative, momentative, etc. has been known to insiders for decades (e.g., K.Hoffmann, Der Injunktiv im Veda, Wiesbaden 1969). Both have diff. meanings, obviously, and should be translated (Vedic exx.) as: "he came :: he has come just now." Panini knows that. It seems to be a characteristic of Proto-Indo-European, and has not resulted a hypothetical influence of S. Asian areal linguistics. In fact, the distinction is much more widespread than even in S. Asia (e.g., in Turkish) and has been known to grammarians. Our popular(!) understanding is spoilt by the idea of 'tenses'. >seemingly no European languages What about Russian (found in every grammar), or even the English forms in -ing ( I was sitting :: I sat)??? (and colloquial N.W. German). >Dahl gives the Japanese ``-te shimaru'' construction Also in Old Japanese: check forms in -nu, -tsu. > Pali does not seem to have anything like this. Pali has already lost the IE /IA distinction (along with almost all occurences of imperfect, perfect). > How about Prakrits? Do they have any periphrastic >constructions not discussed in the usual grammars that function like >``completives''? I think one of our Amer. linguistic colleagues (who?) has written about this soem 5 years ago , as found in medieval Sanskrit (Narrative literature: periphrastic constructions); incidentally, this presages NIA languages like Hindi, etc., where we have similar features but not a grammaticalization into just TWO categories: Instead, a number of 'compounded verbs' (technically speaking , "Aktionsarten") . Like Jpn. -te shimau, -chatta, etc. suc as in coll. machigae-chatta "he has just now made a mistake". MW> ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Wales Professor of Sanskrit Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) Cambridge MA 02138, USA (Harvard Oriental Ser., Opera Minora) phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 2978 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mgansten at SBBS.SE Thu Feb 25 15:52:11 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 16:52:11 +0100 Subject: naa.dii (was: Paishaacika Sanskrit?) Message-ID: <161227046904.23782.495802782269067021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan, Thank you very much for the references. I will try to locate the book. Regards, Martin Gansten From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 25 21:56:49 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 16:56:49 -0500 Subject: Yet another areal feature in SA languages? In-Reply-To: <001601be60fa$f5779d20$7671fe8c@raol.lucent.com> Message-ID: <161227046930.23782.9126081945421480755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dahl gives the Japanese ``-te shimaru'' construction and the (modern) I think at least in modern Japanese this must be -te shimau. Although my knowledge of Japanese is quite imperfect, I do not believe *-te shimaru exists as a standard construction. (perhaps it is based on an incorrect understanding of the continuative form -te shimatte iru?) As Prof. Witzel pointed out, in old Japanese there is -nu or -tsu (but these are unrelated historically to -te shimau, of course). [in productive forms -nu exists only as a negative, with which the old -nu completive should not be confused.] Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Feb 26 02:04:06 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 21:04:06 -0500 Subject: Parvata in VP 2.486 Message-ID: <161227046937.23782.4155402084559856182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/25/99 10:25:58 AM Central Standard Time, narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN writes: > You haven't yet. But Sri S.Palaniappan has gone ahead and did it. > > regards, > > sarma. > > At 05:28 AM 2/25/99 PST, you wrote: > >>I knew that there is an attempt to hyjack Nagarjuna to tamilnadu when > >>Ganesan was posting about Madhura having name Uragapuram. The mention of uragapuram had nothing to do with nAgArjuna. Independently, I wanted to discuss the significance of uragapuram which I shall do in a later posting. Coming to nAgArjuna, Sarma may not be aware of this, but Andhra historians know of two nAgArjunas. I plead innocent to the imagined crime of "hyjacking":-) I am giving below the discussion from "Early History of the Andhra Country" by Dr. K. Gopalachari, 1976, p.130-131. "Scholars like Burgess and Dr. J. Ph. Vogel take seriously the Tibetan tradition preserved by tAranAtha that nAgArjuna, the expounder of the mAdhyamika philosophy (second century A D.), lived at zrI-parvata. Whilst they are agreed in identifying it with Hieun-Tsang's Po-lo-mo-lo-ki-li where a sAtavAhana is said to have quarried a monastery for nAgArjuna, Burgess identifies them both with 'zrIzailam' in the Kurnool District, and Dr. J. Ph. Vogel and the Epigraphy Department with nAharaLLaboDu or nAgArjunikoNDa, a lofty hill overlooking the kRSNA at the northern end of the plateau. The chinese pilgrim places Po-lo-mo-lo-ki-li in dakSiNa kOsala in a place 300 li (50 miles) to the south west of its capital. While speaking of T'o-na-kie-tse- kia (dhAnyakaTaka where the nAgArjunikoNDa plateau would have lain) he speaks of neither nAgArjuna nor his monastery. To identify Po-lo-mo-lo-ki-li of the dakSiNa-kosala, which is placed by Hieun Tsang 1200 li to the north of T'o-na- kie-tse-kia, with 'zrIparvata' in the Guntur and Kurnool Districts is to go too wide of the mark. General Cunningham has identified dakSiNa-kosala with the province of vidarbhA, modern Berar, and its capital with modern Nagpur AGI, p. 595. This agrees with the Tibetan tradition that nAgArjuna was a native of vidarbhA (Wassiljeu, Appendix to tAranAtha, pp.301, 303). The Tibetan tradition that nAgArjuna surrounded the stUpa at dhAnyakaTaka (the amarAvatI stUpa) with a railing is supported by none of the extant amarAvatI rail inscriptions of the second and third centuries A.D. N. Dutt has pointed out (IHQ, Vol. VII, p. 639) that the gaNDavyUha, a work of about the third century A.D., speaks of dhAnyakara as a great city of dakSiNApatha and a seat of manjuzri, who lived in an extensive forest and converted a large number of nAgas and inhabitants of the place, but refers neither to nAgArjuna nor to zrIparvata." Since I may be close to or already exceeding the size limit of the post, let me just say Gopalachari goes on to discuss the second tantric nAGArjuna of the 7th century A.D., who, based on solid inscriptional and textual evidence, was born near kAJci, educated at nalanda and then came to zrIparvata. Regards S. Palaniappan From bhebbar at EROLS.COM Fri Feb 26 01:13:53 1999 From: bhebbar at EROLS.COM (Balaji Hebbar) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 21:13:53 -0400 Subject: Advaita-Chandran Message-ID: <161227046935.23782.4116434579821945032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ms. Vanitha Krishnamurthy, Christianity of only the Nestorian and Jacobite kind were only in Kerala at the time of Madhva. Madhva himself belonged to the Tulu-speaking region of KarnATaka. Christianity of the KarnATak coast is of the Roman Catholic and Swiss Protestant vareity. Almost all the KonkaNI-speaking Christians are Catholics who actually migratred to the Mangalore region from Goa. That why they almost always have Portuguese surnames (e.g. Pinto, Norohna, Saldana, De Silva etc.) Madhva was long gone (died MAgha Shuddha navamI 1317 CE) before Vasco da Gama landed in Calicut in 1498. So, there is no question of Catholic influence. The Tulu-speaking Christians are mostly converts through the Basel Mission (Swiss) who came much later. Madhva himself never mentions the Christians in ANY of his 39 works. In fact, he quotes the Sruti, GItA and other Hindu smrtis consistently in support of his doctrines. Regards, B.N.Hebbar From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Feb 25 16:43:02 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 21:43:02 +0500 Subject: Parvata in VP 2.486 In-Reply-To: <19990225132815.24353.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046910.23782.13975388516320251958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You haven't yet. But Sri S.Palaniappan has gone ahead and did it. regards, sarma. At 05:28 AM 2/25/99 PST, you wrote: >>I knew that there is an attempt to hyjack Nagarjuna to tamilnadu when >>Ganesan was posting about Madhura having name Uragapuram. So many >>places have multiple names. That itself will not be sufficient to >>stake claims. > >Dear Mr. Sarma, > >Did I say ever Nagarjuna belonged to Tamilnadu??? > >But, I remember reading that his chief disciple's ashes >were found near Kanchipuram. > >Also, Vajrabodhi comes from Malaya country and was >a Pallava courtier. > >Regards >N. Ganesan > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From v.k.kumar at EXCITE.COM Fri Feb 26 06:02:49 1999 From: v.k.kumar at EXCITE.COM (keerthi kumar) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 22:02:49 -0800 Subject: Dravidian: Mother of Indo... Message-ID: <161227046941.23782.18052534881922813523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Memebers of the List, I have noted that some of you could not get Discovery of Dravidian as the common source of Indo-European at http://datanumeric.com/dravidian. Iam getting it ok. However, I shall check into it and see if there is a possibly problem involved. Sorry for the inconvenience. All the best. V.Keerthi Kumar (v.k.kumar at excite.com). _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From v.k.kumar at EXCITE.COM Fri Feb 26 06:04:54 1999 From: v.k.kumar at EXCITE.COM (keerthi kumar) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 22:04:54 -0800 Subject: Dravidian: Mother of Indo... Message-ID: <161227046942.23782.3003686717947164656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Memebers of the List, I have noted that some of you could not get Discovery of Dravidian as the common source of Indo-European at http://www.datanumeric.com/dravidian. Iam getting it ok. However, I shall check into it and see if there is possibly a problem involved. Sorry for the inconvenience. All the best. V.Keerthi Kumar (v.k.kumar at excite.com). _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From v.k.kumar at EXCITE.COM Fri Feb 26 06:51:27 1999 From: v.k.kumar at EXCITE.COM (keerthi kumar) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 22:51:27 -0800 Subject: Dravidian:mother of Indo-European Message-ID: <161227046946.23782.5843406344517126959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the List, The problem in accessing Discovery of Dravidian as the common source of Indo-European may be due to the upper case D in Dravidian. Lower case d works. Please try With warm regards. V.Keerthi Kumar (v.k.kumar at excite.com) _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Thu Feb 25 18:13:29 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 23:13:29 +0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990131214831.008618a0@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227046912.23782.4495403043928263340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I want to correct some points mentioned in ganesan-parvata.html posted on the indology website. It appears its name has been changed by the list owner as that of Palaniappan. >This is not correct. We have clear evidence that the name zrI-parvata was used >to refer to the specific zaivite site zrI-zaila from >several Sanskrit sources such as subandhu?s vAsavadatta which associates zrI->parvata with mallikArjuna. bhavabhuti?s >mAlatImAdhava, bANa?s harSacarita, harSa?s ratnAvaLI and somezvara?s kathAsarit >sAgara also associate zrI-parvata with >zaivite/tantric practices. Also Tamil tEvAram of the 7th century identifies >zrIparvata as a zaivite site as shown below. I have already given inscriptional evidence that nAgaArjunakonda is called Sriparvata in my posting on jan 31, 99. The relevent portion is given below ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the time of ikSvAku kings what is now called nAgArjunakoNDa could have been known as siripavata. In one of the inscriptions obtained here it is said "ziripavatE vijayapuriya puvadisAbhAgE vihArE culadammagrIyaM cetiyagharaM." EI, vol XX, No.1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- When there is clear evidence that nAgArjunakoNDa the buddhist center is called Sriparvata there is no necessity of refuting other highly speculative things. >When the local people simply refer to "the mountain", it is the local mountain >whatever its name is. But the situation is very different when it comes to >reference by a person at a location far from the mountain. He/she will >have to refer to the mountain by the full name. In Andhra people do not use the term parvata to indicate a hill or mountain. It is too heavy a word for common man. They use "koMDa" or "guTTa". The usage is "Tirupati koMda" or "yAdagiri guTTa". The word parvata is used for Sriparvata only. When they want to say that they visited Tirumala they say "koMDaku pOyoccinAM".Not "parvatAniki pOyoccinAM". >Even if the Tamil and Kannada zaivites might have used it after the advent of >the bhakti cult, at the time of bhartRhari (5th >century AD), there is no evidence that for any Sanskritist outside the zrI->parvata region, parvata meant zrI-parvata. Even in the >Kannada region, in the fifth century, there is no evidence for the use of >parvata to refer to zrI-parvata. Also one should note >that one of the later Kadamba capitals was called "triparvata" and a term >"parvata" could not have been specific enough to >avoid confusion. If this was the situation in Karnataka, there is no >possibility of anybody living near Nasik using "parvata" to >refer to zrIparvata. On the other hand we have clear epigraphical evidence >showing that the Andhra mountain was called >zrI-parvata in the time period we are interested in. There is a town called bhaTTiprOlu near the Krishna Delta. bhaTTi is supposed to be the vikriti of bhartRhari. bhaTTiprolu means the village of bhartRhari. There is Buddhist stupa and Buddha Dhatu pEtika has been discovered. we have rumours that bhartRhari was a buddhist for some time. There is a probability that bhartRhari could be a native of this place in Andhra. ON PARVATA In addition to this Fa-hsien's monastery in South India which he calls as PAravA or PaRavaTa can be due to wrong pronunciation of "pavata". regards, sarma. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 26 12:59:32 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 04:59:32 -0800 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046953.23782.2563234542273507439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< On S. Palianappan's description of the Venkata deity from Cilappatikaram (and much else in this discussion) - I wish I could read Tamil. It is clear that the identification of the Venkata deity as Visnu goes back before Ramanuja, but I don't think this is in contest - the question is whether there were other interpretations as well. >>> SrimAn. V. Iyer is correct in this. CilappatikAram, conservatively dated in 5th century AD by Western academics, speaks of Tirupati (ie., VEGkaTam) as belonging to Vishnu. Also, hundreds of poems by Srivaishnava Alvars as Tirupati belonging to Vishnu. More important is the fact that no other claim on Tirupati. For example, TirumurukARRuppaTai (5th cent. AD), listing all important Skanda-Murukan sites does NOT include Tirupati (vEGkaTam). Also, the Saivaite texts such as Karaikkal ammai and Tevaram do NOT stake a claim to Tirupati. Many Buddhist texts are lost (due to time, also Saivaite and vaishnavaite sectarians destroyed them wantonly) in Tamil. The available ones do NOT put forth any claim on Tirupati either. No Sanskrit texts on Tirupati says it is Buddhist either. So, no evidence to say Tirupati is Potalaka. Regards, N. Ganesan PS: Can I request Sri. Palaniappan to provide a literal translation so others can understand? Prof. A. Veluppillai is in Indology. May be he can tell us his date of CilappatikAram? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 26 13:32:10 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 05:32:10 -0800 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046955.23782.14030074896730998748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. G. Samuel wrote: <<< On the whole, if Avalokitesvara had an alternate identity, Siva would be more likely than Visnu. All in all, the Malaya mountains seems our best guess so far, given that there seems to be some ambiguity about exactly where that refers to. But nothing seems to be conclusive. >>> The Buddhist epic in Tamil from 6th century (Re: P. Schalk's volume on Manimekalai) fixes Malaya as Mt. Potiyil/Potikai. Malaya as Potikai/Potiyil is used in the beginning of the B. epic. Also, many Sanskrit texts fix Malaya mountains in South Tamilnadu of which Potiyil/Potikai is the tallest peak (in entire Tirunelvely, Kanyakumari districts). On 24-Feb-1999, Dr. J.-L. Chevillard gave the original text and its translation: [Begin quote] "OGku uyar *malayattu* arum tavan2 ..." - Manimekalai 1.3 "the great sage Agastya, who dwells on Potikai" (p.1) [End quote] Note that U. V. CAminAtaiyar uses Potikai/Potiyil as Malaya. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Fri Feb 26 00:44:18 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 05:44:18 +0500 Subject: Potala(ka) etymology In-Reply-To: <19990225190934.21598.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046933.23782.13483854952474517454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lighting a fire and brilliance are not the same. The word pottu has the meaning of kitchen in tamil. In Tirumala the place where they cook naivedyam for the diety is called "srIvAri poTTu". Even assuming that the word pottu means brilliance, once gaungming mountain is taken as Sriparvata, the etmology of Potala is only of academic interest. Telugu people might have called it Potala by the the neighbouring "etti potala". Tamil buddhists could have reinterpreted it with a tamil etymology. The existence of tamil etymological meaning does not make the place tamilian. Multiple etymologies are not uncommon. regards, sarma. At 11:09 AM 2/25/99 PST, you wrote: >[Begin quote] >Buddhabhadra(420 AD)'s rendering is 'Brilliance'. It refers >to its etymology: Tamil *pottu (potti-)* 'to light (as a fire)', >Kota pot- (poty-) id., Kannada pottu n. 'flaming', >Ka. pottige 'flaming, flame', Tulu potta 'hot, burning', >(Burrow/Emeneau 1961:298 no. 3691). In Kannada analogous >words are: pottige 'flaming, flame', pottisu 'to cause to >burn with flame, to kindle, to light', pottu 'to begin to >burn with flame, to be kindled, to catch fire, to flame', >pottu '1. flaming, 2. sun 3 time' (Kittel 1894:1020). >[End quote] > >I have some quotes from Sangam texts where pottal >is used for lighting a flame. > >eri potti en2 neJcam - kalittokai 34.11 >iRai iRai pottiRRu tI - kali. 145.58 > >kATu tIp piRappa kan2ai eri potti - cilappatikAram 4.122 >tiNNin2 tiruki tI azal potti - maNimEkalai 2.53 > >So, potti for lighting a flame is used in Tamil >for atleast 2000 years. According to Lokesh Chandra, >this Ta. 'potti- pottu-, pottal' forms the basis for Guangming. > >Regards, >N. Ganesan From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 26 15:45:49 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 07:45:49 -0800 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046964.23782.1933914304790926424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On 24-Feb-1999, Dr. J.-L. Chevillard gave the original text and > >its translation: > > > >[Begin quote] > > "OGku uyar *malayattu* arum tavan2 ..." - Manimekalai 1.3 > > "the great sage Agastya, who dwells on Potikai" (p.1) > >[End quote] On 26-Feb-1999, Dr. Chevillard writes: > > As for geography, I very much doubt one can make any > precise deduction from it. I am little confused here. Does *malaya* in maNimEkalai 1-3 does not belong to Potikai/Potiyil? UVS, the great editor says so. Also, A. Danielou and T. V. Gopal Iyer do the same. If Chevillard DOUBTS UVS' and T. V. Gopal Iyer's identification of *malaya* in Manimekalai 1-3 with Potikai, what is his guess? Sincerely, SM ---Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote: > > N. Ganesan wrote: > > > The Buddhist epic in Tamil from 6th century (Re: P. Schalk's > >volume on Manimekalai) fixes Malaya as > >Mt. Potiyil/Potikai. Malaya as Potikai/Potiyil > >is used in the beginning of the B. epic. Also, many Sanskrit > >texts fix Malaya mountains in South Tamilnadu of which Potiyil/Potikai > >is the tallest peak (in entire Tirunelvely, Kanyakumari districts). > > > >On 24-Feb-1999, Dr. J.-L. Chevillard gave the original text and > >its translation: > > > >[Begin quote] > > "OGku uyar *malayattu* arum tavan2 ..." - Manimekalai 1.3 > > "the great sage Agastya, who dwells on Potikai" (p.1) > >[End quote] > > > >Note that U. V. CAminAtaiyar uses Potikai/Potiyil as Malaya. > > Please not that, as I remarked earlier, > the translation I quoted is not very litteral. > > the text says "arum tavan2" (stern ascetic); > the commentator interprets this as designating Agastya; > then the translator takes the short road :-) > > Similarly the equation "malayam"="potiyil malai" > found in the commentary becomes a substitution in the translation. > > Since there is still space in this post, I give now > the whole passage as it stands > in this not at all litteral translation. (Manimekalai, Canto 1) > > "The magnificent city of Puhaar is renowned throughout > the world for the virtues of its inhabitants, who jealously > preserve the heritage of a most ancient culture. > > "Still further to increase the city's fame, the great sage > Agastya, who dwells on Potika?, the snowy mountain, > counseled one of the Chola kings (bearer of the hero's bracelet > for destroying the three flying fortresses of the treacherous > demons) to establish a festival in honour of Indra the king > of the gods. > > "Making obeisance, the king requested Indra to come > and dwell each year in the ancient city of Puh?r ..." > > There seems to be a wide syncretism in this buddhist text. > > As for geography, I very much doubt one can make any > precise deduction from it. > > Regards > > -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD > > P.S. I am afraid I have been speaking too much these day: > I shall keep quiet for a few days, even if I do not agree > with what is written... > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 26 17:01:26 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 09:01:26 -0800 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046966.23782.8846136888923984222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I gave George Hart saying that he has always argued that Potalaka is Potiyil/Potikai in Tamilnadu. Prof. P. Schalk, Uppsala university once informed me that the word 'potiyil' is found in a Tamil inscription excavated from Abhayagiri vihara (Anuradhapura)., a hot bed of Mahayana activity in ancient times in Ceylon. Does anyone know where this inscription is published? In Sangam Tamil texts, 'potiyil' has two meanings: 1) As Mt. Potiyil (modern Potikai) and 2) as "public hall". How many are Mount Potiyil and how many "public halls" will be known once Dr. Chevillard gives all the data. My guess is that the Abhayagiri vihAra inscription in Tamil mentioning 'Potiyil' will be short and fragmentary and, Hence, it will be hard to decide whether 'potiyil' refers to Mt. Potiyil or "public hall". Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Fri Feb 26 08:17:44 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 09:17:44 +0100 Subject: the word "potiyil" in classical Tamil (was Re: the word "potiyil" inside MaNimEkalai) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990225131629.006ed3f8@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <161227046950.23782.13756922074373826905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A 17:47 24/02/99 +0100, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > >>>Can you give us the places where Potiyam and Potiyil figures >>>in Sangam texts (eTTut tokai and pattup paaTTu)? Please. >>> >> >How many places Potiyil refers to Mt. Potiyil >>>and at how many places it refers to a "Public Hall". >>> This time I am sending the data for pattup pATTu (after taking care of akam, puRam and maNimEkalai in my previous postings. I checked against J.V. Chelliah's translation (Ten Tamil Idylls) that was published long back by kazhakam To summarize, the word "potiyil" is * not used at all to refer to Mount Potiyil * used 3 times to refer to a public hall (or a hall for worship?) (H7, H8, H9) H7 = tiru-226 (Chelliah, p.355) H8 = matu-161 (Chelliah, p.241) H9 = paTTi-249 (Chelliah, p.45) I hope this is useful to somebody :-) Naturally, people are usually more interested in positive :-)) than in negative evidences :-( Best wishes -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 26 17:30:39 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 09:30:39 -0800 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046967.23782.9382923383858136058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I recall Prof. Geoffrey Samuel's posting seeking whether we know how does Venkateshvara look in His unadored state. Let me tell what I heard from Padmasri Muthiah Stapathi. Sri. Muthiah Sthapathi is close to Kanchi Sankaracharyas. During MahaperiyavAL's times, he and his family renovated scores of temples in AP (eg., Srisailam). Thiru. M. Sthapathi a nephew of Sri. Ganapati Sthapathi, stayed in my house few times in Coimbatore or in USA. He told me this (in translation): "It was a great moment in my life to go and examine Venkateshvara, the main deity. He wears unmistakably the Conch and Discus; This is when He wears no jewels or garland". Venkateshvara does not look like Ajanta Padmapani at all. CilappatikAram and Sri Alvars know pretty well that he is TirumAl-Vishnu only. Regards N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 26 17:59:22 1999 From: chris_fernand90 at HOTMAIL.COM (Christopher Fernandez) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 09:59:22 -0800 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046969.23782.10041325507532690342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend told me that Kannahi and Ayyanar, typically folk deities of Tamils, entered into Sri Lankan Buddhism during the Mahayana period in Ceylon? Is this true?? First time I am hearing of mahayana in ceylon. Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 26 18:47:59 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 10:47:59 -0800 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046971.23782.3059260651955981926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< >On 24-Feb-1999, Dr. J.-L. Chevillard gave the original text and > >its translation: > > > >[Begin quote] > > "OGku uyar *malayattu* arum tavan2 ..." - Manimekalai 1.3 > > "the great sage Agastya, who dwells on Potikai" (p.1) > >[End quote] On 26-Feb-1999, Dr. Chevillard writes: > > As for geography, I very much doubt one can make any > precise deduction from it. I am little confused here. Does *malaya* in maNimEkalai 1-3 does not belong to Potikai/Potiyil? UVS, the great editor says so. Also, A. Danielou and T. V. Gopal Iyer do the same. If Chevillard DOUBTS UVS' and T. V. Gopal Iyer's identification of *malaya* in Manimekalai 1-3 with Potikai, what is his guess? >>>> CAminAtaiyar and KOpAlaiyar equate *Malaya* to Potiyil/Potikai. This is well grounded both in Sanskrit and Tamil traditions. CilappatikAram's usage of *malaya* as *potiyil*: a) malayattu OGki maturaiyin2 vaLarntu ... b) malayattu Ekutum vAn2 pEr imaya nilayattu Ekutal nin2 karuttu Akalin2 ... c) malaya mArutam tiritaru maRukil ... d) malaya mArutam man2n2avaRku iRukkum ... e) malayattu Aramum maNi muttu aaramum ... f) nItu nilai malayam piRpaTac cen2Ru AGku... and so on. CilappatikAram predates Manimekalai by a century or so and so there is really NO surprise in maNimEkalai using *malaya* as Potiyil and *malayattu arum tavan2* as Agastya. V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 26 19:49:39 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 11:49:39 -0800 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046975.23782.14642684609987877273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On 24-Feb-1999, Dr. J.-L. Chevillard gave the original text and > >its translation: > > > >[Begin quote] > > "OGku uyar *malayattu* arum tavan2 ..." - Manimekalai 1.3 > > "the great sage Agastya, who dwells on Potikai" (p.1) > >[End quote] On 26-Feb-1999, Dr. Chevillard writes: > > As for geography, I very much doubt one can make any > precise deduction from it. ADDITIONALLY: Locating *malaya* as Mt. Potiyil/Potikai is possible. Literally, hundreds of such occurences can be found for *malaya* as Potiyil and *malaya mun2i* as Agastya. For example., in Kamban, Villi, Two TiruviLaiyADals, Kandapuranam, ... Using all the occurences in Tamil and Sanskrit, we can make a precise determination as to where Malaya is. That happens to be Mt. Potiyil as UVS & TVG have done. V. Iyer ---------------------------------------------------------- CAminAtaiyar and KOpAlaiyar equate *Malaya* to Potiyil/Potikai. This is well grounded both in Sanskrit and Tamil traditions. CilappatikAram's usage of *malaya* as *potiyil*: a) malayattu OGki maturaiyin2 vaLarntu ... b) malayattu Ekutum vAn2 pEr imaya nilayattu Ekutal nin2 karuttu Akalin2 ... c) malaya mArutam tiritaru maRukil ... d) malaya mArutam man2n2avaRku iRukkum ... e) malayattu Aramum maNi muttu aaramum ... f) nItu nilai malayam piRpaTac cen2Ru AGku... and so on. CilappatikAram predates Manimekalai by a century or so and so there is really NO surprise in maNimEkalai using *malaya* as Potiyil and *malayattu arum tavan2* as Agastya. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Feb 26 16:51:21 1999 From: veekay at GIASBMC.VSNL.NET.IN (VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 11:51:21 -0500 Subject: Advaita-Chandran In-Reply-To: <36D5F551.1664@erols.com> Message-ID: <161227046944.23782.574564634912420885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When imentioned the advent christianity i was not referring to Vasco or his successors, i had really ment syriac church which was well established then in west coastand therefore we cannot rule out that Madhva was not unaware of christianity. You mention that Madhva was consistent in quoting scriptures in supprt of his doctrine.But my query was how could gita and upanishads support both the doctrines-especially when the dvaita doctrine is radically differnt from non-dualism? Krish. On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Balaji Hebbar wrote: > Dear Ms. Vanitha Krishnamurthy, > > Christianity of only the Nestorian and Jacobite kind were only > in Kerala at the time of Madhva. Madhva himself belonged to > the Tulu-speaking region of KarnATaka. Christianity of the > KarnATak coast is of the Roman Catholic and Swiss Protestant > vareity. Almost all the KonkaNI-speaking Christians are Catholics > who actually migratred to the Mangalore region from Goa. That > why they almost always have Portuguese surnames (e.g. Pinto, > Norohna, Saldana, De Silva etc.) Madhva was long gone (died > MAgha Shuddha navamI 1317 CE) before Vasco da Gama landed in > Calicut in 1498. So, there is no question of Catholic > influence. The Tulu-speaking Christians are mostly converts > through the Basel Mission (Swiss) who came much later. Madhva > himself never mentions the Christians in ANY of his 39 works. > In fact, he quotes the Sruti, GItA and other Hindu smrtis > consistently in support of his doctrines. > > Regards, > B.N.Hebbar > From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Feb 26 20:53:37 1999 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 12:53:37 -0800 Subject: Ref. check- Possible misprint in critical edition Bhag. Gita Message-ID: <161227046984.23782.16082419008511777628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Van Buitenen's reading is the same as the one in the BORI critical edition, so it must be a misprint. As far as I know the CE is in print. You should be able to get it from any bookseller that sells books from India. Regards, Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann, Ph.D. Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California, Berkeley At 03:12 PM 2/26/99 EST, you wrote: >In verse 11.25 line 2 of the above text I would like to check if there >is a misprint. > >This line reads: "dRSTvaiva kAlAnilasaMnibhAni" > > >But in J.A.B. van Buitenen's edition "The Bhagavadgita in the >Mahabharata" which is based on the B.O.R.I. critical edition (and all >other texts I've checked) the line reads: > "dRSTvaiva kAlAnalasaMnibhAni" > >For this line Belvalkar only lists the variation: >dRSTvaiva : dRSTveva > >This makes me wonder if "kAlAnilasaMnibhAni" might be a misprint? > >Also if anybody could tell me if the B.O.R.I. critical edition is still >in print And if so how to obtain it. > > >Thank you very much, > >Harry Spier From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Fri Feb 26 08:35:15 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 13:35:15 +0500 Subject: Parvata in VP 2.486-"grandhamAtrE vyvasthitaH" Message-ID: <161227046948.23782.1233687753771777078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> sAtavAhanAs were encouraging prAkrit upto hAla sAtavAhanA. One his queens who was a Ceylonese princess made fun of him for his lack of sanskrit knowledge.(mAM mOdakais[mA+udakaiH] tADaya). Stung to the quick he wanted to learn sanskrit in a hurry. The pANinian scholar and minister guNADhya offered to teach him sanskrit along with the grammer in 6 years. (Usually it takes 12 years). One of the younger ministers by name sarvavarman said that he can do it within six months. sarvavarman by the grace of kArtikEya wrote a new vyAkaraNa called kAlApaka vyAkaraNa or kAtantra. He taught hAla sanskrit within six months they say. In what measure we do not know but who will dare say that king hasn't learnt it, when the king decides he has learnt it. As per the bet that was made earlier guNADhya abjured using the all the civilised languages including sanskrit and went to forest to compose his magnumopus bRhatkatha in paizAchi. The above clearly show the conditions in Andhra were such that the the phrase "grandhamAtrE vyvasthitaH" applies very nicely to pANinian grammer. The reason is in the beginning the court language was prAkrit. Even later when sanskrit was studied it was through kAtantra because "yathA rAjA tathA prajA" applies. Let me add one thing the katantra was really a good effort for some time it was used in almost all parts of India and even now it is used in Bengal. So a live tradition of pANinian grammer at the time of VP is a disqualification for that part of India to be the source of pANinian vyAkaraNa. regards, sarma. From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Fri Feb 26 19:00:27 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 14:00:27 -0500 Subject: Yet another areal feature in SA languages? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046973.23782.16800612281846560947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Like Jpn. -te shimau, -chatta, etc. suc as in coll. machigae-chatta "he has just now made a mistake". I am sorry I overlooked the last line of Prof. Witzel's post, in which he has silently corrected -te shimaru. He has also alluded, again silently, to another feature which is interesting about this construction, in addition to its paraphrastic nature (different from OJ -nu, which is an agglutinative feature of the verb itself), namely that it implies a negative result; -nu does not, I believe, contain this nuance. You cannot say *daigaku ni nyugaku shite shimatte/shchatta [*I completely obtained entrance to the university], unless you really don't want to go to the university. Also, by the way, I am not sure about the "just now" aspect: For example, *jitsu wa, tegami wo dashchatta =Actually, I sent the letter/I did sent the letter, and I regret it -- but I think one could answer this to the question, After he wrote to you last week, you didn't answer him did you? I do not think you would have had to have sent the letter within that day, for example, as I understand the distinction in Vedic verb forms to suggest. Are such features as "unfortunately" possible aspects of OIA verb aspect?? Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1272 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 26 22:29:27 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 14:29:27 -0800 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046993.23782.630578336918818478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> White water rafting is not my favorite sport (nor is fishing in troubled waters for that matter ;-))). Regardless I could not help adding my own two cents' worth. ---Geoffrey Samuel wrote: > On S. Palianappan's description of the Venkata deity from Cilappatikaram > (and much else in this discussion) - I wish I could read Tamil. It is clear > that the identification of the Venkata deity as Visnu goes back before > Ramanuja, but I don't think this is in contest - the question is whether > there were other interpretations as well. To which Dr Ganesan replies: >More important is the fact that no other claim on Tirupati. For example, >TirumurukARRuppaTai (5th cent. AD), listing all important >Skanda-Murukan sites does NOT include Tirupati (vEGkaTam). > Also, the Saivaite texts such as Karaikkal ammai and Tevaram > do NOT stake a claim to Tirupati. I do agree entirely with N. Ganesan. There does not appear to be any claim in the sectarian texts dedicated to Murukan or Siva. Re what the dispute might have been during Ramanuja's time (alluded to in S. Palaniappan's post), one can only make an informed guess. Aggressive posturing towards the vaishnava institutions (with and without the support of the cOza administration) could have been one cause as witness the consecration of a siva temple during Ramanuja's lifetime in ChOkinUr (modern TiruchAnUr, a suburb of Tirupati) cheek by jowl with a Vishnu temple. (ChOkinUr was a big vaishnava center in those days). The epigraphic record speaks of considerable friction between the two temple committees. Notwithstanding the above, there is one verse (pEyAzwAr 63) in the Vaishnava canon itself which does cause considerable confusion with regard to the identity of the image: tAzcaDaiyum nILmuDiyum oNmazuvum cakkaramum cUzaravum ponnANum tOnRumAl - cUzumtiranDaruvi pAyum tirumalaimEl entaikku iranDuruvum onRAy icaintu. (Divyaprabandham 2344) It talks of the image (adorned/unadorned? ... perhaps the former) in terms of pairs of attributes (low hanging jaTA & long hair), (mace &discus), ( snake around him & golden thread). It concludes by saying that "both forms become one in fitting our Lord". Now I do not think there is any optical illusion here. It appears that the shrine in those days was in the open. This is evident from the Divyaprabandham as well as from the cilappatikAram verse quoted by S Palaniappan. Now there is a school of thought that this verse is a spurious interpolation, albeit ancient, of the substitution type. (Substitution because of the antAti type construction wherein the first word of a verse is chained from the last word of the preceding verse). However the Srivaishnavas themselves do not think this is an interpolation owing perhaps to the sanctity of the received text of the Divyaprabandham. Discus and conch episode quoted by Chandrasekaran Periyannan appears to me to be some sort of a hagiographical account. That brings us back to this verse. Thanks and Warm Regards. == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 26 22:30:47 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 14:30:47 -0800 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046995.23782.1465991673836435733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<<< I have been looking for potiyil (and also for potiyam and malayam) in several texts. Some have a real basis like the Akam text that refers to titiyan2. Some are purely fiction stories like the manimEkalai passages where we see a viJcaiyan2. [...] To sum up, these MaNimEkalai passages cannot be read as coming from a geography book. >>>> Nothing unusual! All Indian religious texts are in this manner alike. May be many world religions' books too. Best, V. Iyer PS: Thanks for your good words on my abilities :-) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Fri Feb 26 13:32:43 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 14:32:43 +0100 Subject: Potala(ka) etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046960.23782.9053439425212436417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A 04:59 26/02/99 PST, N.Ganesan a ?crit : >PS: Can I request Sri. Palaniappan to provide a literal translation >so others can understand? Prof. A. Veluppillai is in Indology. >May be he can tell us his date of CilappatikAram? > A 03:29 24/02/99 EST, S. Palaniappan avait ?crit : >In a message dated 2/24/99 1:57:30 AM Central Standard Time, >sogbs at CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU writes: > >We have a very vivid description of the deity at vEGkaTam in cilappatikAram > >vIgku nIr aruvi vEgkaTam en2n2um >Ogku uyar malaiyattu ucci mImicai >viri katir jnAyiRum tigkaLum viLagki >iru marugku Ogkiya iTainilait tAn2attu >min2n2uk kOTi uTuttu viLagku vil pUNTu >nal niRa mEkam nin2Ratu pOla >pakai aNagku Aziyum pAl veN cagkamum >takai peRu tAmaraik kaiyin2 Enti >nalam kiLar Aram mArpil pUNTu >polam pU ATaiyin2 polintu tOn2Riya >ceg kaN neTiyOn2 nin2Ra vaNNamum (cil. 11.41-51) > Before we get Palaniappan's translation ..., here is the translation by V.R. Ramachandra Dikshitar (1939, reprint 1978, p.193) "(I also came to see) the beauty of the red-eyed Lord, holding in His beautiful lotus-hands the discus which is death to His enemies, and also the milk-white conch: (to see Him) wearing a garland of tender flowers on His breast, and draped in golden flowers; and dwelling on the topmost crest of the tall and lofty hill named VeenkaTam, with innumerable waterfalls, standing like a cloud in its natural hue, adorned with a rainbow and attired with lightning, in the midst of a place both sides of which are illumined by the spreading rays of the sun and the moon." Regards - Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 26 22:48:02 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 14:48:02 -0800 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046997.23782.8513786810842275643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -> Some are purely fiction stories -> like the manimEkalai passages where we see a viJcaiyan2. I think there is a story of a Vidyadhara couple coming from the North to make a pilgrimage to Mt. Potiyil in the Buddhist epic, Manimekalai (6th century AD). As I recall the text does NOT explicitly state that the couple are Buddhists. May be Caataanaar allows for "syncreticism" to work considering that the Manimekalai is a syncretic work. Does Manimekalai call the Vidyadhara couple, the pilgrims to the famed Mount Potiyil as Hindu explicitly? Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 26 20:12:07 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 15:12:07 -0500 Subject: Ref. check- Possible misprint in critical edition Bhag. Gita Message-ID: <161227046977.23782.15439310233000598554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm using Harvard-Kyoto (HK) convention in the following. I have obtained a copy of "zrImadbhagavadgItA" / Sanskrit text edited by S.K. Belvalkar; Hindi translation by V.S. Agrawala. - Varanasi: Hindu Vishvavidyalaya Sanskrit Publication Board: sole distributor, Banaras Hindu University Press, 1962. The text contains a very comprehensive list of variations and critical apparatus. The editor S.K. Belvalkar is the editor of the Bhagavad Gita section of the B.O.R.I. critical edition of the Mahabharata, 1947. In verse 11.25 line 2 of the above text I would like to check if there is a misprint. This line reads: "dRSTvaiva kAlAnilasaMnibhAni" But in J.A.B. van Buitenen's edition "The Bhagavadgita in the Mahabharata" which is based on the B.O.R.I. critical edition (and all other texts I've checked) the line reads: "dRSTvaiva kAlAnalasaMnibhAni" For this line Belvalkar only lists the variation: dRSTvaiva : dRSTveva This makes me wonder if "kAlAnilasaMnibhAni" might be a misprint? If anybody who has access to the B.O.R.I. critical edition could check if this is a valid reading or not I would greatly appreciate it. Also if anybody could tell me if the B.O.R.I. critical edition is still in print And if so how to obtain it. Thank you very much, Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Fri Feb 26 14:19:16 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 15:19:16 +0100 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc In-Reply-To: <19990226133210.3333.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046962.23782.17501378821726771328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > The Buddhist epic in Tamil from 6th century (Re: P. Schalk's >volume on Manimekalai) fixes Malaya as >Mt. Potiyil/Potikai. Malaya as Potikai/Potiyil >is used in the beginning of the B. epic. Also, many Sanskrit >texts fix Malaya mountains in South Tamilnadu of which Potiyil/Potikai >is the tallest peak (in entire Tirunelvely, Kanyakumari districts). > >On 24-Feb-1999, Dr. J.-L. Chevillard gave the original text and >its translation: > >[Begin quote] > "OGku uyar *malayattu* arum tavan2 ..." - Manimekalai 1.3 > "the great sage Agastya, who dwells on Potikai" (p.1) >[End quote] > >Note that U. V. CAminAtaiyar uses Potikai/Potiyil as Malaya. Please not that, as I remarked earlier, the translation I quoted is not very litteral. the text says "arum tavan2" (stern ascetic); the commentator interprets this as designating Agastya; then the translator takes the short road :-) Similarly the equation "malayam"="potiyil malai" found in the commentary becomes a substitution in the translation. Since there is still space in this post, I give now the whole passage as it stands in this not at all litteral translation. (Manimekalai, Canto 1) "The magnificent city of Puhaar is renowned throughout the world for the virtues of its inhabitants, who jealously preserve the heritage of a most ancient culture. "Still further to increase the city's fame, the great sage Agastya, who dwells on Potika?, the snowy mountain, counseled one of the Chola kings (bearer of the hero's bracelet for destroying the three flying fortresses of the treacherous demons) to establish a festival in honour of Indra the king of the gods. "Making obeisance, the king requested Indra to come and dwell each year in the ancient city of Puh?r ..." There seems to be a wide syncretism in this buddhist text. As for geography, I very much doubt one can make any precise deduction from it. Regards -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD P.S. I am afraid I have been speaking too much these day: I shall keep quiet for a few days, even if I do not agree with what is written... From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU Fri Feb 26 20:47:26 1999 From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 15:47:26 -0500 Subject: More on the eye worms.. Message-ID: <161227046982.23782.8900660242873562008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten wrote on Sat, 20 Feb. 1999 20:34:42 +0100 > Robert and John: thanks very much for your suggestions! Does anyone know of > classical Indian references to any of these rather nasty-sounding diseases? > > Regards, > Martin Gansten > I found the reference in Sushruta-saMhita. In its uttaratantra, adhyaaya 2, the topic of netra-kR^imi is discussed. The so-called worms (kR^imi) are supposed to infect the joint between eyelids and the white portion of the eye. There are several remedies suggested and I can supply more details if needed. Other responses to the message gave suggested modern equivalents for the disease, but I am not qualified to judge those. Perhaps, somebody has access to modern commentaries on Sushruta. -- |Avinash Sathaye Phone:(606)277-0130(Home), (606)257-8832(Office) | Web page: www.ms.uky.edu/~sohum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU Fri Feb 26 22:09:16 1999 From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 17:09:16 -0500 Subject: Ref. check- Possible misprint in critical edition Bhag. Gita Message-ID: <161227046991.23782.16777030995614903605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I checked the original B.O.R.I. critical edition by S.K. Belvalkar himself (1968 reprint of the original 1946 version). He himself has:"dRSTvaiva kAlAnalasaMnibhAni". So, the "dRSTvaiva kAlAnilasaMnibhAni" must be a misprint introduced by the Agrawala edition! Also, the meaning of the verse makes more sense with anala=fire, than anil=wind as a comparison for the mouths! BTW, my copy of the critical edition does not give the variant that you mentioned: > For this line Belvalkar only lists the variation: dRSTvaiva : dRSTveva > Also, the critical editions (all mahaabhaarata or giitaa) are still available from B.O.R.I itself! My giitaa edition was 60Rs. or about $1.5. They also ship, though shipping could be much more expensive! Harry Spier wrote: > I'm using Harvard-Kyoto (HK) convention in the following. > > I have obtained a copy of "zrImadbhagavadgItA" / Sanskrit text edited by > S.K. Belvalkar; Hindi translation by V.S. Agrawala. - Varanasi: Hindu > Vishvavidyalaya Sanskrit Publication Board: sole distributor, Banaras > Hindu University Press, 1962. > > The text contains a very comprehensive list of variations and critical > apparatus. The editor S.K. Belvalkar is the editor of the Bhagavad Gita > section of the B.O.R.I. critical edition of the Mahabharata, 1947. > > In verse 11.25 line 2 of the above text I would like to check if there > is a misprint. > > This line reads: "dRSTvaiva kAlAnilasaMnibhAni" > > But in J.A.B. van Buitenen's edition "The Bhagavadgita in the > Mahabharata" which is based on the B.O.R.I. critical edition (and all > other texts I've checked) the line reads: > "dRSTvaiva kAlAnalasaMnibhAni" > > For this line Belvalkar only lists the variation: > dRSTvaiva : dRSTveva > > This makes me wonder if "kAlAnilasaMnibhAni" might be a misprint? > > If anybody who has access to the B.O.R.I. critical edition could check > if this is a valid reading or not I would greatly appreciate it. > > Also if anybody could tell me if the B.O.R.I. critical edition is still > in print And if so how to obtain it. > > Thank you very much, > > Harry Spier > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sogbs at CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU Fri Feb 26 06:12:38 1999 From: sogbs at CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU (Geoffrey Samuel) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 17:12:38 +1100 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046939.23782.13986955757392678428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re Potala(ka) as Venkata: I don't have any particular attachment to Potalaka = Venkata, and as I said I am not impressed by D.C. Ahir's arguments. But I find it strange that such an apparently important place should diappear off the map entirely. But perhaps the anecdote of Buddhaguhya and Buddhasanti in Taranatha reflects a stage where this process was already under way: "Then the two together went to the Potala hill. At the foot of the hill, Arya Tara sat preaching the Doctrine to the Nagas. But they saw only an old woman tending a big herd of cows. When they reached the middle of the hill, the goddess Bhrkuti was preaching the Doctrine to a group of Asuras and Yaksas. But they saw a girl tending a big herd of goats and sheep. When they reached the top of the hill, there was nothing but a stone image of Avalokitesvara. Thus it is said. "But Buddhasanti thought, 'Why should this place be full of such trivial objects? So all these are due to the defects of my vision. They must be Tara and others.' With this deep conviction, he earnesdtly prayed to them. Thus he acquired as the general quality the miraculous power of transforming anything at will and also the extraordinary quality of boundless abhijnana and with this he learnt all the sastr-s that he never studied before. He realised the nature as everything as but void (literally, like the akasa). "But Buddhaguhya prayed with no such conviction and he attained only the miraculous power of moving without his feet touching the earth. Then the old woman instructed him, 'Go to the Ti-se [Kailasa] of the Himalayas and meditate there.'" (Chimpa and Chattopadhyaya, pp.281-2) AT Kailasa and other major Tibetan mountain-shrines, there is no temple on the top of the mountain (which is not normally visited), and the deities are not visible except to those of pure vision - the anecdote seems to assume that Potalaka was a similar kind of place. The linking of Kailasa and Potalaka is interesting in view of S. Paliniappan's point about the Kailasa-Potiyil linkage. On the whole, if Avalokitesvara had an alternate identity, Siva would be more likely than Visnu. All in all, the Malaya mountains seems our best guess so far, given that there seems to be some ambiguity about exactly where that refers to. But nothing seems to be conclusive. On S. Palianappan's description of the Venkata deity from Cilappatikaram (and much else in this discussion) - I wish I could read Tamil. It is clear that the identification of the Venkata deity as Visnu goes back before Ramanuja, but I don't think this is in contest - the question is whether there were other interpretations as well. The passage S. Palianappan cites from the Cilappatikaram is spoken by a Vaishnava Brahmin who is a devotee of Vishnu and attached to the Pandya king (I assume this corresponds to Canto 11 in Danielou's translation Incidentally, is it generally accepted that the CilappatikAram is "not later than 5th century AD"? E.g. A. Veluppillai in an article on Manimekalai in the J. of the Institute of Asian Studies (Madras) 9, 1 cites dates up to the eighth century, and it all sounds rather inconclusive. Presumably, too, our surviving manuscripts are considerably later? I don't think we can conclude (on the basis of this passage at any rate) that "Cilappatikaram states unequivocally that Tirupati belongs to TirumAl/Vishnu." (V. Iyer) - at most it establishes that a (fictional) Pandyan Vaishnavite Brahmin at a somewhat indeterminate time might have seen it that way. This isn't a quibble. For example, there are at the present time four major competing versions of the identity of the deities at Kailasa, for example (Hindu, Tibetan Buddhist, Tibetan Bonpo and Jain), all of them held sincerely to be the truth by the respective parties. If I were to write a poem with a Hindu yogi visiting Kailasa, I would of course have him describe it as the abode of Siva. A Tibetan pilgrim would describe it as the abode of Cakrasamvara. There are very many such places. Rewalsar (mTsho Padma) in Himachal Pradesh has competing Hindu, Tibetan Buddhist and Sikh myths. The Kulu Valley is the place where Bhima encountered Hidimba and his sister, and also the place where the Tibetan epic hero Ge-sar met kLu-btsan and his sister. Kataragama in Sri Lanka is dedicated to Murugan and also to the Islamic mystical guide Khidr. Etc etc. BTW, I notice some contributors still seem attached to the interpretation of Avalokitesvara's six-syllable mantra (OM MANIPADME HUM) as being about jewels and lotuses, lingams and yonis, etc. This is basically Western fantasy (see e.g. Don Lopez's Prisoners of Shangri-La), and best forgotten. Geoffrey Samuel * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Geoffrey Samuel, Department of Sociology and Anthropology, University of Newcastle, NSW 2308, AUSTRALIA Telephone: Work (02) 4921 5698; Home (02) 4957 0244; Fax +61-2-4921 6902 Email sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au WWW: http://www.newcastle.edu.au/department/so/samuel.htm * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From shrao at IA.NET Sat Feb 27 02:11:43 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 20:11:43 -0600 Subject: Advaita-Chandran In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047005.23782.13705274441287184039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, VANITHA.KRISHNAMURTHY wrote: > When imentioned the advent christianity i was not referring to > Vasco or his successors, i had really ment syriac church which > was well established then in west coastand therefore we cannot > rule out that Madhva was not unaware of christianity. Quite right; I don't suppose Dr. Hebbar meant to rule that out, although he did rule out the idea that this "awareness" was the cause of Madhva's doctrine. > You mention that Madhva was consistent in quoting scriptures in > supprt of his doctrine.But my query was how could gita and > upanishads support both the doctrines-especially when the dvaita > doctrine is radically differnt from non-dualism? Simple answer -- it doesn't. BG II-12 for instance says clearly that Krishna, Arjuna, and the kings are all eternal, and there could not be a clearer statement of eternal multiplicity. The IshAvAsya says that the world is correctly known by the Lord: yAthAtathyato.arthAn.h vyadadhAchchhAshvatIbhyaH samAbhyaH -- ruling out the theory that knowledge of it is illusory. The 'Gita itself severely criticizes the proponents of the doctrine of illusion: `asatyamapratishhThaM te jagadAhuranIshvaram.h' -- this is not a reference to the chArvAka doctrine as the proponents of that doctrine do accept the reality of the world, while denying the existence of the otherworld; it is also not a reference to Buddhist denial of the reality of the world, because even the Buddhists do admit two kinds of reality, per Nagarjuna's `dve satye samupAshritya buddhAnAM dharmadeshanA', and these correspond to the Advaitic realities of world and Brahman -- if the Buddhists be criticized by the verse for this two-tiered reality, why not the latter? Lastly, the Brahma Suutra propounds major tenets of Madhva clearly: `gauNashchennAtmashabdAt.h' ([Brahman is] the embodied, so say you? No, because the world `Atma' is used); `bhedavyapadeshAt.h'; `pR^ithagupadeshAt.h'; `vaidharmyAchcha na svapnAdivat.h' ([the world is] not like a dream, etc., because of its difference in quality) -- etc. Not a single sUtra is to be found saying that the world is illusory, that Brahman is the only Real, etc. More than one inconvenient sUtra is considered by Shankara and other commentators as pUrva-paxa, or has its purport softened or disregarded by resorting to declarations ex cathedra; this is a rather questionable practice -- imagine what would happen to the Sanskrit language if Panini's grammar sUtra-s were interpreted in this fashion! Regards, Shrisha Rao > Krish. > > On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Balaji Hebbar wrote: [*chomp*] -- deleted. From shrao at IA.NET Sat Feb 27 02:24:27 1999 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 20:24:27 -0600 Subject: Ref. check- Possible misprint in critical edition Bhag. Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047007.23782.4828462498584011269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Hello Folks, > > To clarify the confusion regarding Belvalkar's editions. I have in front > of me an edition of the Bhagavadgita by Belvalkar, published in 1959 (the Another question: what does Belvalkar give as the correct reading of BG XIV-3, commonly given as: idaM j~nAnamupAshritya mama sAdharmyamAgatAH | sarge.api nopajAyante praLaye na vyathanti cha | -- ? Madhva seems to take the reading as `idaM j~nAnamapAshritya' with the rest remaining same. A 13th-cent. manuscript shows this clearly. Also, does Belvalkar give XIII-1, prakR^itiM purushhaM chaiva xetraM xetraj~nameva cha | etadveditumich{}chhAmi j~nAnaM j~neyaM cha keshava || -- which is not to be found in Shankara's commentary (at least the published versions)? Regards, Shrisha Rao > Madhav Deshpande From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Feb 27 01:52:26 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 20:52:26 -0500 Subject: Ref. check- Possible misprint in critical edition Bhag. Gita In-Reply-To: <36D71B8C.CC25A19A@ms.uky.edu> Message-ID: <161227047000.23782.8367203722457540517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Folks, To clarify the confusion regarding Belvalkar's editions. I have in front of me an edition of the Bhagavadgita by Belvalkar, published in 1959 (the date on the preface) in Hindu Vishvavidyalaya Nepal Rajya Sanskrit Series, Vol 1. The editor of the Series is given as V.S. Agrawala. It contains a translation of the BG by Belvalkar himself in English. I suspect that the edition with a Hindi translation by Agrawala must be a later Hindi version of this publication. This edition cites variants without always giving sources. With reference to these variants, Agrawala says in his Introduction: "At the special suggestion of the late Pandit Madan Mohan Malaviya, Dr. Belvalkar has recorded in a clear manner, only the principal variants of the different Northern and Southern Recensions without indicating the names of the manuscripts. On making use of these footnotes, one is, therefore, treading on sure ground, although comfortably relieved from the mesh of several recensions and versions." (p. vii). Now the text of the line (BG 11.25) is indeed given as "dRSTvaiva kAlAnalasaMnibhAni" However, Belvalkar's footnote indeed says: 'dRSTvaiva' iti sthAne 'dRSTveva' iti pAThaH', p. 91. Hope we have at least traced what Belvalkar himself says on this point, though without a clear reference to a particular source. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Avinash Sathaye wrote: > I checked the original B.O.R.I. critical edition by S.K. Belvalkar himself > (1968 reprint of the original 1946 version). > He himself has:"dRSTvaiva kAlAnalasaMnibhAni". > > So, the "dRSTvaiva kAlAnilasaMnibhAni" must be a misprint introduced by the > Agrawala edition! > > Also, the meaning of the verse makes more sense with anala=fire, than > anil=wind as a comparison > for the mouths! > > BTW, my copy of the critical edition does not give the variant that you > mentioned: > > > For this line Belvalkar only lists the variation: dRSTvaiva : dRSTveva > > > > Also, the critical editions (all mahaabhaarata or giitaa) are still > available from B.O.R.I itself! > My giitaa edition was 60Rs. or about $1.5. They also ship, though shipping > could be much more expensive! > > Harry Spier wrote: > > > I'm using Harvard-Kyoto (HK) convention in the following. > > > > I have obtained a copy of "zrImadbhagavadgItA" / Sanskrit text edited by > > S.K. Belvalkar; Hindi translation by V.S. Agrawala. - Varanasi: Hindu > > Vishvavidyalaya Sanskrit Publication Board: sole distributor, Banaras > > Hindu University Press, 1962. > > > > The text contains a very comprehensive list of variations and critical > > apparatus. The editor S.K. Belvalkar is the editor of the Bhagavad Gita > > section of the B.O.R.I. critical edition of the Mahabharata, 1947. > > > > In verse 11.25 line 2 of the above text I would like to check if there > > is a misprint. > > > > This line reads: "dRSTvaiva kAlAnilasaMnibhAni" > > > > But in J.A.B. van Buitenen's edition "The Bhagavadgita in the > > Mahabharata" which is based on the B.O.R.I. critical edition (and all > > other texts I've checked) the line reads: > > "dRSTvaiva kAlAnalasaMnibhAni" > > > > For this line Belvalkar only lists the variation: > > dRSTvaiva : dRSTveva > > > > This makes me wonder if "kAlAnilasaMnibhAni" might be a misprint? > > > > If anybody who has access to the B.O.R.I. critical edition could check > > if this is a valid reading or not I would greatly appreciate it. > > > > Also if anybody could tell me if the B.O.R.I. critical edition is still > > in print And if so how to obtain it. > > > > Thank you very much, > > > > Harry Spier > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Fri Feb 26 21:01:59 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 22:01:59 +0100 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc In-Reply-To: <19990226154549.18240.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046986.23782.9470028828441588188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Tamil specialists, Since the wording of my last posting has raised comments by Swaminathan Madhuresan and by Venkatraman Iyer, I feel compelled to break my word not say anything for a few days and to explain what I meant (I may have been too terse ...) in the 2 points [(A) & (B)] that were commented (A) I said >> As for geography, I very much doubt one can make any >> precise deduction from it. I have been looking for potiyil (and also for potiyam and malayam) in several texts. Some have a real basis like the Akam text that refers to titiyan2. Some are purely fiction stories like the manimEkalai passages where we see a viJcaiyan2. And it is still another situation with this passage that was discussed just now where we see Agastya and Indra. To sum up, these MaNimEkalai passages cannot be read as coming from a geography book. (B) I said >> the text says "arum tavan2" (stern ascetic); >> the commentator interprets this as designating Agastya; >> then the translator takes the short road :-) >> >> Similarly the equation "malayam"="potiyil malai" >> found in the commentary becomes a substitution in the translation. I was not criticizing the equation (how could I?) I never said that the commentator was wrong (that would have been silly indeed ...) I was REMARKING that you could not know from the english translation (mismanaged by Danielou) what THE EXACT WORDING of the original Tamil was. The whole idea was that people not knowing Tamil could take part in a discussion where an important aspect was to understand what was the precise usage of two words (potiyil and malayam). As my teacher (T.V.Gopal Iyer) once remarked: some students simply want to understand the poruL ([general] meaning) of a text! other students also want to understand the words (col). But it takes much more time. Best regards. Sorry for my clumsy wording (one more reason to keep silent). -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD P.S. N.Ganesan wrote >Prof. P. Schalk, Uppsala university once informed me that >the word 'potiyil' is found in a Tamil inscription excavated >from Abhayagiri vihara (Anuradhapura)., a hot bed of Mahayana >activity in ancient times in Ceylon. > >Does anyone know where this inscription is published? >In Sangam Tamil texts, 'potiyil' has two meanings: >1) As Mt. Potiyil (modern Potikai) and 2) as "public hall". >How many are Mount Potiyil and how many "public halls" >will be known once Dr. Chevillard gives all the data. > >My guess is that the Abhayagiri vihAra inscription in Tamil >mentioning 'Potiyil' will be short and fragmentary and, >Hence, it will be hard to decide whether 'potiyil' >refers to Mt. Potiyil or "public hall". > It seems that Venkatraman Iyer is having Tamil literature at the tip of his fingers. It is probably better if he finishes the enquiry about potiyil :-) From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Feb 27 04:10:39 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 23:10:39 -0500 Subject: Ref. check- Possible misprint in critical edition Bhag. Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047009.23782.13467897731104944057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Belvalkar's edition of the BG (Hindu Vishvavidyalaya Nepal Sanskrit Series, 1959) reads 'upAzritya' in (BG XIV.2), but lists the reading 'apAzritya' in the footnote. In Chapter 13, the list 'prakRtiM puru.sam caiva' etc. is not given in the text of the BG, but given in the footnote. The footnote says that this verse is found in mss coming from Nepal, Kashmir, and Bengal, but not generally found in the southern mss, and is not seen in Sankara's commentary. In some mss, this verse is put at the end of the 12th chapter. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Shrisha Rao wrote: > On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > > Hello Folks, > > > > To clarify the confusion regarding Belvalkar's editions. I have in front > > of me an edition of the Bhagavadgita by Belvalkar, published in 1959 (the > > Another question: what does Belvalkar give as the correct reading of BG > XIV-3, commonly given as: > > idaM j~nAnamupAshritya mama sAdharmyamAgatAH | > sarge.api nopajAyante praLaye na vyathanti cha | > > -- ? > > Madhva seems to take the reading as `idaM j~nAnamapAshritya' with the rest > remaining same. A 13th-cent. manuscript shows this clearly. Also, does > Belvalkar give XIII-1, > > prakR^itiM purushhaM chaiva xetraM xetraj~nameva cha | > etadveditumich{}chhAmi j~nAnaM j~neyaM cha keshava || > > -- which is not to be found in Shankara's commentary (at least the > published versions)? > > Regards, > > Shrisha Rao > > > Madhav Deshpande > From mgansten at SBBS.SE Fri Feb 26 23:05:22 1999 From: mgansten at SBBS.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 00:05:22 +0100 Subject: More on the eye worms.. Message-ID: <161227046998.23782.14588911786296022880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Avinash, >I found the reference in Sushruta-saMhita. In its uttaratantra, adhyaaya 2, the >topic of netra-kR^imi is discussed. Thank you very much! I will look up the reference. Regards, Martin Gansten From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 27 05:29:44 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 00:29:44 -0500 Subject: A few more Bhagavad Gita obscurities. Message-ID: <161227047011.23782.6710096945924343975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you scholars and fellow lovers of Sanskrit for taking the time to answer those questions I've asked regarding the Bhagavad Gita. I'm deeply touched. A few more obscurities: 1) verse 18.72 of the Bhagavad Gita: Belvalkar(1962 edition)and a few others read ...praNaSTas... J.A.B. van Buitenen and a few others read ...pranaSTas... Whitney in his grammar section 192 a. specifically mentions "pranaSTas" as an exception to "n" going to "N" after "r". Is Belvalkar in this edition a misprint? What does B.O.R.I. say? Is there some optionality in this rule? Or some other reason for this difference? 2) Verse 18.43 Belvalkar (1962 edition) reads ...kSattrakarma... J.A.B. van Buitenen reads ...kSatrakarma... Is this the same situation as the previous discussion on patra/pattra and if so, is kSattra etymological or phonological? 3) verse 15.5 Belvalkar reads ...gRcchantymUdA... van Buitenen and all other editions at hand read ...gRcchantymUdAH... Misprint in Belvalkar? Again thank you in advance Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 27 05:33:09 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 00:33:09 -0500 Subject: A few more Bhagavad Gita obscurities. Message-ID: <161227047013.23782.10068034473481069507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you scholars and fellow lovers of Sanskrit for taking the time to answer those questions I've asked regarding the Bhagavad Gita. I'm deeply touched. A few more obscurities: 1) verse 18.72 of the Bhagavad Gita: Belvalkar(1962 edition)and a few others read ...praNaSTas... J.A.B. van Buitenen and a few others read ...pranaSTas... Whitney in his grammar section 192 a. specifically mentions "pranaSTas" as an exception to "n" going to "N" after "r". Is Belvalkar in this edition a misprint? What does B.O.R.I. say? Is there some optionality in this rule? Or some other reason for this difference? 2) Verse 18.43 Belvalkar (1962 edition) reads ...kSattrakarma... J.A.B. van Buitenen reads ...kSatrakarma... Is this the same situation as the previous discussion on patra/pattra and if so, is kSattra etymological or phonological? 3) verse 15.5 Belvalkar reads ...gacchantymUdA... van Buitenen and all other editions at hand read ...gacchantymUdAH... Misprint in Belvalkar? Again thank you in advance Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 27 05:45:18 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 00:45:18 -0500 Subject: correction to "a few more Bhagavad Gita Obscurities" Message-ID: <161227047015.23782.16001703145339940963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gentlemen: I accidently sent two copies of the transmission "a few more Bhagavad Gita Obscurities". The first one was a draft and contains a misprint. ...gRcchantymUDA... and ...gRcchantymUDAH... should read ...gacchantyamUDA... and ...gaccantyamUDAH... The second one which I intended to send alone also contains a misprint in the same lines. ...gacchantymUDA... and ...gacchantymUDAH... should read ...gacchantyamUDA... and ...gacchantyamUDAH... Please ignore the first one sent and apply the misprint correction to the second. Thank you for your patience Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 27 06:49:13 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 01:49:13 -0500 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227047016.23782.14361026452748761051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/25/99 11:58:25 PM Central Standard Time, sogbs at CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU writes: > I don't think we can conclude (on the basis of this passage at any rate) > that "Cilappatikaram states unequivocally that Tirupati belongs to > TirumAl/Vishnu." (V. Iyer) - at most it establishes that a (fictional) > Pandyan Vaishnavite Brahmin at a somewhat indeterminate time might have > seen it that way. The date of 5th century for cilappatikAram is suggested by Kamil Zvelebil after he discusses all the proposed dates in The Smile of Murugan. The translation by R. Parthasarathy in 1993 (The Cilappatikaram of Ilanko Atikal by Columbia University Press) uses the 5th century date also. (Incidentally, in the story, the Vaishnavite brahmin was from mAGkATu in kuTamalai (western mountain). He was only visiting and admiring ten2n2avan2 nATu (the kingdom of the southern one, i.e., the Pandyan) I agree one should watch for religious bias when interpreting these texts. But the author of the text cilappatikAram, possibly a Jain, has been very eclectic and realistic in his portrayal of the adherents of different religions. The epithets he uses and the details he gives are very valuable. The brahmin of mAGkATu is not portrayed as a sectarian Vaishnavite. Since Dr. Samuel has Danielou's translation, I shall illustrate this with some references. When giving directions to go to Madurai, he describes a junction where the road divides into three, like the "fierce trident of the god who wears the crescent moon...". (p. 72) The actual Tamil text is "piRaimuTik kaNNip periyOn2" meaning "the Great one who wears the crescent moon as a wreath on the head". Later he describes the benefits of chanting the pancAkSara and aSTAkSara mantras and bathing in some ponds on the way (p. 73-74). However, when he mentions that if they bathe in one of the ponds, they will gain the knowledge of a text authored by Indra (Aindra vyAkaraNa acc. to commentators) , Kavunti, the Jain nun refutes him and says that there was no need to do that since the same knowledge can be had by reading a Jain text. (p. 72 and 74). For an interesting discussion of cilappatikAram's embracing of humanity as a whole as opposed to sectarian maNimEkalai, see Manimekalai translated by S. K. Guruswamy and S. Srinivasan, UVS Library, 1993. Regards S. Palaniappan From keith_williams99 at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 27 13:12:15 1999 From: keith_williams99 at YAHOO.COM (keith williams) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 05:12:15 -0800 Subject: Potala/Sriparvata Message-ID: <161227047018.23782.3148731640866072653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been following the discussion of Potala/Sriparvata and I am outraged at the obscurantist behavior of Sarma in this discussion. Hiding relevant information or presenting misleading information seems to be the forte of Sarma. In a post on Fri, 22 Jan 1999, he said, "The "nallamala" range of hills in the telugu country extend right from ahObilaM-tirumala to zrizailaM-nAgArjunakoMDa. In dravidian "nalla" stands for good and "mala" stands for mountain. The word nalla has been sanskritised as "zrI" which can mean auspicious, mejastic or lovely. Thus the words "nallamala", "tirumala", "zrIzaila", "zrIgiri" "zrIparvata" are synonyms." Sarma pulled a fast one here. Conveniently, he resorted to a non-Telugu meaning of "nalla". In Telugu, "nalla" means "black/dark" and not "good". To Telugus, "nallamala" means "black/dark mountain" and not "good mountain". Since Sarma could not explain how a Telugu word meaning "black/dark" can be Sanskritized as "zrI", he had manufactured a non-existent meaning. On 2/24/99 Sarma says, >Gaungming = bright >Here is the evidence that Sri parvata is the mountain that is being referred >to. >According to MMR >Sri= to burn, flame, diffuse light, diffusing light or radiance. Sarma has fraudulently succeeded in transmuting a "black/dark" mountain into a "bright" mountain. What a contrast! Earlier, when Chris Fernandez criticized Sarma's illogical and prejudiced statements, Bijoy Misra said that Sarma "can't be as bad as is depicted". Now, we see Sarma's full capabilities for committing intellectual fraud! Moreover, his recent accusation regarding the hijacking of Nagarjuna had exposed his paranoia and ignorance of Andhra history. And he has the gall to criticize others like S. Palaniappan whose analyses are well-regarded by genuine scholars on the list. Is it too much to expect from list members who post, a modicum of 1- logical rigor in argumentation, 2- objectivity, and 3- integrity? Best, Keith _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sat Feb 27 02:33:06 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 07:33:06 +0500 Subject: Ref. check- Possible misprint in critical edition Bhag. Gita In-Reply-To: <19990226201208.258.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047003.23782.18404335769849417912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:12 PM 2/26/99 EST, you wrote: >I'm using Harvard-Kyoto (HK) convention in the following. > >This line reads: "dRSTvaiva kAlAnilasaMnibhAni" > > >But in J.A.B. van Buitenen's edition "The Bhagavadgita in the >Mahabharata" which is based on the B.O.R.I. critical edition (and all >other texts I've checked) the line reads: > "dRSTvaiva kAlAnalasaMnibhAni" > >For this line Belvalkar only lists the variation: >dRSTvaiva : dRSTveva > >This makes me wonder if "kAlAnilasaMnibhAni" might be a misprint? > At the time of praLaya there will be both "kAlAnala" as well as "kAlAnila". Thus both variations can be there but perhaps the verb dRStvA favours "kAlAnala". >Harry Spier > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU Sat Feb 27 16:00:49 1999 From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 11:00:49 -0500 Subject: A few more Bhagavad Gita obscurities. Message-ID: <161227047026.23782.8483000181062369532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry Spier wrote: > Snip..Snip.. > A few more obscurities: > > 1) verse 18.72 of the Bhagavad Gita: > Belvalkar(1962 edition)and a few others read ...praNaSTas... > J.A.B. van Buitenen and a few others read ...pranaSTas... > > Whitney in his grammar section 192 a. specifically mentions "pranaSTas" > as an exception to "n" going to "N" after "r". > Is Belvalkar in this edition a misprint? What does B.O.R.I. say? Is > there some optionality in this rule? Or some other reason for this > difference? > My copy of Belvalkar's critical edition (B.O.R.I. 1968) only gives pranaSTas, the second version and mentions the alternative as occurring in "some MSS " without any explicit reference. I will defer to the true grammarians, but the exception is standard. I believe that the "pra" is not considered the part of the pada and hence does not invoke conversion rule n->N. There are some exceptions to the "non conversion" listed. > > 2) Verse 18.43 > Belvalkar (1962 edition) reads ...kSattrakarma... > J.A.B. van Buitenen reads ...kSatrakarma... > > Is this the same situation as the previous discussion on patra/pattra > and if so, is kSattra etymological or phonological? > Again, my copy only has kSatrakarma and the only other variant listed is a kSatrakaM karma (pardon me if I am mixing conventions, but I am more comfortable with ITRANS). There is a long list of manuscripts using this. I believe the kSattra variation belongs to the earlier discussions about the double t. > > 3) verse 15.5 > Belvalkar reads ...gacchantymUdA... > van Buitenen and all other editions at hand read ...gacchantymUdAH... > Misprint in Belvalkar? > This time, I am confused about the notation. It appears that the only difference is the visarga at the end and my edition does have it without any additional comments. So, it is most likely a misprint in your edition! About the transliteration convention, should it be gacchantyamUDhAH ? I mean should there be an "a" after the "y" and the "d" replaced by "Dh" to conform to devnagari? Pardon my ignorance about the HK notation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 27 19:32:37 1999 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 11:32:37 -0800 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227047034.23782.5771468055500402672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > > tAzcaDaiyum nILmuDiyum oNmazuvum cakkaramum > cUzaravum ponnANum tOnRumAl - > cUzumtiranDaruvi pAyum tirumalaimEl entaikku > iranDuruvum onRAy icaintu. > > (Divyaprabandham 2344) > > It talks of the image (adorned/unadorned? ... perhaps the former) in > terms of pairs of attributes (low hanging jaTA & long hair), (mace > &discus), ( snake around him & golden thread). It concludes by > saying that "both forms become one in fitting our Lord". In my earlier post, I had erroneously translated mazu as mace. It is actually axe. Thanks and Warm Regards. == Lakshmi Srinivas _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 27 19:04:12 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 14:04:12 -0500 Subject: A few more Bhagavad Gita obscurities. Message-ID: <161227047029.23782.14520443138569246610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Avinash Sathaye wrote: > >Harry Spier wrote: > >> Snip..Snip.. >> >> 3) verse 15.5 >> Belvalkar reads ...gacchantymUdA... >> van Buitenen and all other editions at hand read ...gacchantymUdAH... >> Misprint in Belvalkar? >> > >This time, I am confused about the notation. It appears that the only >difference is the visarga at the end and my edition does have it without >any additional comments. So, it is most likely a misprint in your edition! > >About the transliteration convention, should it be gacchantyamUDhAH ? I >mean should there be an "a" after the "y" and the "d" replaced by "Dh" to >conform to devnagari? Pardon my ignorance about the HK notation. > > Avinash is quite right, the transliteration should read as he has indicated above. Apologies, Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Feb 27 13:30:42 1999 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 14:30:42 +0100 Subject: SV: Potala/Sriparvata Message-ID: <161227047020.23782.16734217858269293693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Keith Williams wrote: > I have been following the discussion of Potala/Sriparvata and I am > outraged at > the obscurantist behavior of Sarma in this discussion. > > > Sarma has fraudulently succeeded in transmuting a "black/dark" > mountain into a > "bright" mountain. What a contrast! > > Earlier, when Chris Fernandez criticized Sarma's illogical and > prejudiced > statements, Bijoy Misra said that Sarma "can't be as bad as is > depicted". Now, > we see Sarma's full capabilities for committing intellectual fraud! > Moreover, > his recent accusation regarding the hijacking of Nagarjuna had > exposed his > paranoia and ignorance of Andhra history. > Is it too much to expect from list members who post, a modicum of > 1- logical rigor in argumentation, > 2- objectivity, and > 3- integrity? Whatever the realities of the discussion are, could we please avoid using expressions such as "obscurantist", "fraudulently", "intellectual fraud" and "paranoia"? The polite assumption is always that your opponent is wrong, not that he wilfully distorts facts - UNLESS you can DEMONSTRATE that your opponent is consciously dishonest. A discussion where such perceptions as the ones above are stated explicitly immediately turns the discussion into a common quarrel that is of no interest to the list. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Feb 27 22:06:42 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 17:06:42 -0500 Subject: On prana.s.ta versus pra.na.s.ta Message-ID: <161227047037.23782.11347593670223829980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Belvalkar himself seems to have changed his mind between the critical edition and the Banaras edition. In BG verse 18.72, the critical edition gives the reading -prana.s.ta-, while noting the reading -pra.na.s.ta- as coming from some unspecified mss. The Banaras edition onthe other hand gives the reading -pra.na.s.ta-, without noting the other reading. A question was raised as to what would be sanctioned by the grammarians. Panini lists this root as -.naza- in his Dhaatupaa.tha. Then rule P.8.4.14 (upasargaad asamaase 'pi .nopadezasya) says that the -n- of a root, which is listed with -.n- in the Dhatupaa.tha, changes to -.n- after the r/.r/.s in the Upasarga, even when there is no compounding (asamaase 'pi). The last condition would then allow forms such as -pra.na.s.ta- (where there is traditionally said to be compounding between pra and na.s.ta) and pra.nazyati (where there is traditionally not supposed to be any compounding). The form -pra.nazyati- occurs in BG 2.63, and neither the critical edition, nor Belvalkar's Banaras edition cite the variant -pranazyati-. Thus, from a purely theoretical point of view of Paninian grammar, the form would be -pra.na.s.ta-. This is, however, not to say anything about the forms of the Ur-Mbh. Best, Madhav Deshpande From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sat Feb 27 22:15:18 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 17:15:18 -0500 Subject: On prana.s.ta versus pra.na.s.ta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047039.23782.5275089297387017327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, my statement about the Paninian rules needs a correction. P.8.4.36 (naze.h .zaantasya) prohibits the change of -n- to -.na- when the root ends in -.s-, as in the form -prana.s.ta-. Thus, Panini allows pra.nazyati, but not pra.na.s.ta. I remembered this exception right after hitting the 'send' command on my previous message. Sorry for the confusion. Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 27 Feb 1999, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Hello, > > Belvalkar himself seems to have changed his mind between the > critical edition and the Banaras edition. In BG verse 18.72, the critical > edition gives the reading -prana.s.ta-, while noting the reading > -pra.na.s.ta- as coming from some unspecified mss. The Banaras edition > onthe other hand gives the reading -pra.na.s.ta-, without noting the other > reading. > A question was raised as to what would be sanctioned by the > grammarians. Panini lists this root as -.naza- in his Dhaatupaa.tha. > Then rule P.8.4.14 (upasargaad asamaase 'pi .nopadezasya) says that the > -n- of a root, which is listed with -.n- in the Dhatupaa.tha, changes to > -.n- after the r/.r/.s in the Upasarga, even when there is no compounding > (asamaase 'pi). The last condition would then allow forms such as > -pra.na.s.ta- (where there is traditionally said to be compounding between > pra and na.s.ta) and pra.nazyati (where there is traditionally not > supposed to be any compounding). The form -pra.nazyati- occurs in BG > 2.63, and neither the critical edition, nor Belvalkar's Banaras edition > cite the variant -pranazyati-. Thus, from a purely theoretical point of > view of Paninian grammar, the form would be -pra.na.s.ta-. This is, > however, not to say anything about the forms of the Ur-Mbh. > Best, > Madhav Deshpande > From jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Sun Feb 28 01:34:07 1999 From: jgardner at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (JR Gardner) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 19:34:07 -0600 Subject: Personal attacks on the list In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990228065057.0087e5f0@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227047044.23782.14038408130691631227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A very intriguing observation. The unix command "whois" and/or "nslookup" might provide enightening perspectives on many of our list favorites . . . ;-) jr On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > Dear list members, > The following members of the list have been posting > their letters from the same IP adress i.e., 192.31.86.34 > > N.Ganesan > Christopher Fernandez > Swaminathan Madhuresan > Keith Williams > > regards, > > sarma. > From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sat Feb 27 14:47:16 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 19:47:16 +0500 Subject: Potala/Sriparvata In-Reply-To: <19990227131215.18628.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227047022.23782.3476957105417587045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:12 AM 2/27/99 -0800, you wrote: > I have been following the discussion of Potala/Sriparvata and I am >outraged at > the obscurantist behavior of Sarma in this discussion. > > Hiding relevant information or presenting misleading information >seems to be > the forte of Sarma. In a post on Fri, 22 Jan 1999, he said, > > "The "nallamala" range of hills in the telugu country extend right from > ahObilaM-tirumala to zrizailaM-nAgArjunakoMDa. In dravidian "nalla" > stands for good and "mala" stands for mountain. The word nalla has > been sanskritised as "zrI" which can mean auspicious, mejastic or > lovely. Thus the words "nallamala", "tirumala", "zrIzaila", "zrIgiri" > "zrIparvata" are synonyms." > > Sarma pulled a fast one here. Conveniently, he resorted to a non-Telugu > meaning of "nalla". In Telugu, "nalla" means "black/dark" and not >"good". To > Telugus, "nallamala" means "black/dark mountain" and not "good >mountain". > Since Sarma could not explain how a Telugu word meaning "black/dark" >can be > Sanskritized as "zrI", he had manufactured a non-existent meaning. > > On 2/24/99 Sarma says, > >Gaungming = bright > >Here is the evidence that Sri parvata is the mountain that is being >referred > >to. > > >According to MMR > >Sri= to burn, flame, diffuse light, diffusing light or radiance. > > Sarma has fraudulently succeeded in transmuting a "black/dark" >mountain into a > "bright" mountain. What a contrast! > > Earlier, when Chris Fernandez criticized Sarma's illogical and >prejudiced > statements, Bijoy Misra said that Sarma "can't be as bad as is >depicted". Now, > we see Sarma's full capabilities for committing intellectual fraud! >Moreover, > his recent accusation regarding the hijacking of Nagarjuna had >exposed his > paranoia and ignorance of Andhra history. And he has the gall to >criticize > others like S. Palaniappan whose analyses are well-regarded by genuine > scholars on the list. > > Is it too much to expect from list members who post, a modicum of > 1- logical rigor in argumentation, > 2- objectivity, and > 3- integrity? > > Best, > Keith > Mr. Keith, I wish that you had carefully considered the situation before you sent this posting. There is no question that the range of hills is called Sriparvata irrespective of whether Sriparvata is the translation of nallamala or not. No body can or does question it, because that is the name by which it is known in our literature and inscriptions. Therefore there is no question of my naming it as Sriparvata by fraudulently traslating it. Chinese seem to have translated it taking the meaning of bright and radiant for Sri and calling it radiant mountain. In addition to this though as you said nalla has one meaning as black in telugu, in our ancient telugu literature nalla=good is also there. After all our language and tamil are derived from the same source. I think you owe me an apology. regards, sarma. >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Sat Feb 27 19:09:08 1999 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 20:09:08 +0100 Subject: Potala/Sriparvata In-Reply-To: <19990227131215.18628.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227047031.23782.14531749469471156632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Williams, This indeed is outrageous. I wish you cross-checked some standard Telugu dictionaries, or DED, or asked someone knowledgable in Telugu, before making those blatant accusations against Dr. Sarma, on a scholarly mailing list. Prof. BhK already refered to _sUryarAyAndhra nighanTuvu_. This multi-vol work running over 5000 pages costs JUST Rs. 300 ($7) and still available in any standard book shop in Andhra Pradesh. I may request you to to get hold of it and check the entry "nalla", before showing your Telugu skills. Regards, Sreenivas P.S. BTW, is anyone paying close attention to the mail headers, especially the 'Originating IP address', of some posters - who use free web based email services? Is it incidental that Mr. Williams' message and three regular posters' messages originate from the same m/c! Similarly Mr. Christopher Fernadez's messages and a _regular's_ messages? Just curious. > In Telugu, "nalla" means "black/dark" and not "good". To > Telugus, "nallamala" means "black/dark mountain" and not "good mountain". From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 27 16:06:26 1999 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 21:06:26 +0500 Subject: Potala/Sriparvata Message-ID: <161227047024.23782.14760238504215390471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:12 27/02/99 -0800, you wrote: > I have been following the discussion of Potala/Sriparvata and I am >outraged at > the obscurantist behavior of Sarma in this discussion. > > Hiding relevant information or presenting misleading information >seems to be > the forte of Sarma. In a post on Fri, 22 Jan 1999, he said, > > "The "nallamala" range of hills in the telugu country extend right from > ahObilaM-tirumala to zrizailaM-nAgArjunakoMDa. In dravidian "nalla" > stands for good and "mala" stands for mountain. The word nalla has > been sanskritised as "zrI" which can mean auspicious, mejastic or > lovely. Thus the words "nallamala", "tirumala", "zrIzaila", "zrIgiri" > "zrIparvata" are synonyms." > > Sarma pulled a fast one here. Conveniently, he resorted to a non-Telugu > meaning of "nalla". In Telugu, "nalla" means "black/dark" and not >"good". To > Telugus, "nallamala" means "black/dark mountain" and not "good >mountain". > Since Sarma could not explain how a Telugu word meaning "black/dark" >can be > Sanskritized as "zrI", he had manufactured a non-existent meaning. > > On 2/24/99 Sarma says, > Sarma has fraudulently succeeded in transmuting a "black/dark" >mountain into a > "bright" mountain. What a contrast! > > Earlier, when Chris Fernandez criticized Sarma's illogical and >prejudiced > statements, Bijoy Misra said that Sarma "can't be as bad as is >depicted". Now, > we see Sarma's full capabilities for committing intellectual fraud! >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com I am not interested in identifying the original location of potala(ka). But the accusations made against Sarma show lack of civility. Corresponding to PDr. *nal 'good', Old Telugu has naluwu 'beauty, etc.' (see DEDR 3610). A Telugu Dictionary in 7 volumes called Suuryaraaya-aandhranighaNTuwu in vol. 4 gives nalla-wo as an exclamatory form meaning 'good, then'; -wo is -poo used as a clitic. The forms meaning 'good' are obsolete in Modern Telugu. But in early (pre-Classical) Telugu it is perfectly possible for nalla- to occur as an adj. meaning 'good'. The word nalla meaning 'black' occurs also in old as well as modern literature/language (derived from *na.l 'dark'DEDR 3621, although they listed it in 3613). nalupu (n.): nalla- adj. :: naluwu (n.): nalla- adj. Retroflex /.l/ merged with alveolar lateral /l/ as early as the 8th cent. AD. This homonomy could have been the basis for nalla- 'good' going out of use. But its existence is attested (see supra). I do not think Sarma deserves Keith's virulent personal attack by name. Why would Sarma mislead? What will he get out of it? It would be graceful if Keith Williams tendered him an apology. Regards. Krishnamurti ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 (A.P.), India Telephone:40-7019665 E-mail: From shankars at SPRINT.CA Sun Feb 28 03:35:09 1999 From: shankars at SPRINT.CA (Sanjeev Shankar) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 22:35:09 -0500 Subject: Personal attacks on the list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047052.23782.1802452920651258387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The IP address 192.31.86.34 translates to a system named proxy2a.lmco.com. lmco.com is the domain name for Lockheed Martin..... -Sanjeev > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of JR > Gardner > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 1999 8:34 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Personal attacks on the list > > > A very intriguing observation. The unix command "whois" > and/or "nslookup" > might provide enightening perspectives on many of our list > favorites . . . > > ;-) > > jr > > On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > > > Dear list members, > > The following members of the list > have been posting > > their letters from the same IP adress i.e., 192.31.86.34 > > > > N.Ganesan > > Christopher Fernandez > > Swaminathan Madhuresan > > Keith Williams > > > > regards, > > > > sarma. > > > From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sun Feb 28 04:07:19 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 23:07:19 -0500 Subject: On prana.s.ta versus pra.na.s.ta In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990228074732.008876a0@hd1.dot.net.in> Message-ID: <161227047054.23782.8066752065033086485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> These rules of retroflexion are not only complex, they are often unpredictable. John Brough remarks: "In spite of the struggle to reduce this complicated situation to a series of rules, the junction of upasargas seems to have been particularly resistant to systematic formulation." (Brough's edition of the Gandhari Dharmapada, 1962, p. 107). Some of this instability may be reflected in the variants of the Mahabharata. Madhav Deshpande On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA wrote: > At 05:15 PM 2/27/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Sorry, my statement about the Paninian rules needs a correction. P.8.4.36 > >(naze.h .zaantasya) prohibits the change of -n- to -.na- when the root > >ends in -.s-, as in the form -prana.s.ta-. Thus, Panini allows > >pra.nazyati, but not pra.na.s.ta. I remembered this exception right after > >hitting the 'send' command on my previous message. Sorry for the > >confusion. > > Madhav Deshpande > > Dear Madhav Deshpande, > I am not a linguist but I am curious. In pranaSTa > "n" is flanked by two mUrdhanyAs. If it is the ease of pronunciation it > should become "N". Does this mean that ease is not always the criterion? > Is it a desire to break the monotony of three mUrdhnyAs in a row or is > there any meaning angle involved? > > regards, > > sarma. > From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 28 07:45:00 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 02:45:00 -0500 Subject: anusvAra, anunAsika and chandrabindu,bindu and nasal mutes Message-ID: <161227047059.23782.9772959631979307332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1) Whitney in his grammar section 73 a) talks about anusvAra, anunAsika and the signs bindu and chandrabindu. Is he saying (or more to the point is it the case) that in some manuscripts the bindu is used for the nasal that is assimilated to the following consonent (and does this mean become the class nasal), and chandrabindu is used for what he calls the independent anusvAra or nasalized vowel (i.e. anusvAra that doesn't change to a nasal mute)? So that where in his grammar he uses (in his transliteration scheme) n with a bindu over it this stands for what in some manuscripts would be indicated with bindu, and when he uses m with a bindu over it (in his transliteration scheme)this would stand for what in those same manuscripts would be indicated by chandrabindu? He says that many European printed texts follow this use of bindu and chandrabindu. I've only seen chandrabindu used before semivowel "l". Is it the modern practice to only use chandrabindu for nasalized semi-vowels? To sum up can anyone clarify the relationship between anusvAra, anunAsika, nasal mutes and the signs bindu and chandrabindu? 2) Is it just as correct to write the class nasal for "m" before mutes or nasals as it is to use the anusvAra sign the bindu. Is this merely a matter of presentation, equivalent and equally correct? 3)In verse 6.41 of Bhagavad Gita Belvalkar (1962) has for his main reading ...puNyakRtAM lokAnuSitvA... but in his notes he has the reading ...puNyakRtA(chandrabindu sign)llokAnuSitvA . Van Buitenen uses this second reading in his text. Is the pronounciation of these two readings identical? Are they identical? Harry Spier ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 28 11:52:06 1999 From: apandey at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 03:52:06 -0800 Subject: Bengali instruction In-Reply-To: <002b01be62ec$756f87c0$4f5687ca@ds> Message-ID: <161227047063.23782.844558717959371800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, JM wrote: > Any advice for English-speaking students wanting to learn Bengali? > > Recommended texts? > Summer courses or periodic intensive courses anywhere? > recommended full courses of study at universities, institutes on the Indian > subcontinent, etc.? A Bengali primer by William Radice in the "Teach Yourself" is a good text, however the difficulty of the exercises increases dramatically at the onset. The Radice text has examples in Bengali script (and in transliteration as well at the beginning of the text.) A widely-used primer by Edward Dimock is also useful, but all of the Bengali text appears in transcription. I believe the only full length elementary course in Bengali is taught at the University of Washington, Seattle, during the Summer Quarter, which runs from mid-June to the end of August. From experience, I can say that the instructor, Dr. Carol Salomon, is wonderful and has an excellent command of the language. For more information please refer to the home of the Department of Asian Languages and Literature at: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~asianll/ My Bengali for TeX package might also be of use to those wishes to produce high-quality Bengali documents. More details at: ftp://ftp.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/language/bengali/pandey/ Regards, Anshuman Pandey From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Feb 28 01:50:57 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 06:50:57 +0500 Subject: Personal attacks on the list Message-ID: <161227047041.23782.703753110321654387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, The following members of the list have been posting their letters from the same IP adress i.e., 192.31.86.34 N.Ganesan Christopher Fernandez Swaminathan Madhuresan Keith Williams regards, sarma. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Feb 28 07:35:45 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 07:35:45 +0000 Subject: Sarasvati River Research Project Message-ID: <161227047046.23782.9708054049973104562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, The following URL from the Indian Express, Bombay edition, will be of interest; it is headlined: Vajpayee's bus journey will help Sarasvati River Project. http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19990225/ige25057.html Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail From narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN Sun Feb 28 02:47:32 1999 From: narayana at HD1.DOT.NET.IN (DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 07:47:32 +0500 Subject: On prana.s.ta versus pra.na.s.ta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047049.23782.12766390034285856454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:15 PM 2/27/99 -0500, you wrote: >Sorry, my statement about the Paninian rules needs a correction. P.8.4.36 >(naze.h .zaantasya) prohibits the change of -n- to -.na- when the root >ends in -.s-, as in the form -prana.s.ta-. Thus, Panini allows >pra.nazyati, but not pra.na.s.ta. I remembered this exception right after >hitting the 'send' command on my previous message. Sorry for the >confusion. > Madhav Deshpande Dear Madhav Deshpande, I am not a linguist but I am curious. In pranaSTa "n" is flanked by two mUrdhanyAs. If it is the ease of pronunciation it should become "N". Does this mean that ease is not always the criterion? Is it a desire to break the monotony of three mUrdhnyAs in a row or is there any meaning angle involved? regards, sarma. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 28 15:48:20 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 07:48:20 -0800 Subject: CilappatikAram date Message-ID: <161227047071.23782.3613700321739558555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the date of CilappatikAram, Dr. A. Veluppillai sent the following: >Regarding the dating of the CilappatikAram and MaNimEkalai, as >available to us in print today, I have been raising some issues in >some of my publications. See P. Schalk's volume- my article on >'Historical Background of the MaNimEkalai and Indigenization of >Buddhism - on the proceedings of the MaNimEkalai conference, >Uppsala (1995). The fifth century AD could be accepted as the most >probable date. > A.Veluppillai ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Feb 28 06:23:06 1999 From: bhk at HD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Bh.Krishnamurti) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 11:23:06 +0500 Subject: Personal attacks on the list Message-ID: <161227047057.23782.13825185591408493485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik: I have noticed that Venkatarama Iyer and Ganesan send postings from two identical IP accounts: 209.223.25.112 and 192.31.86.34. Please look into the matter. It is a rare coincidence that five different individuals are posting through hotmail (which is freely provided) from the same IP address. This is the worst kind of fraud of the century foisted on the scholarly community. Another coincidence is that they are all Tamil lovers with identical interest, supporting each other all the time. Anybody can check if these five are one and same or different. If they are proved to be one and the same, the ghost behind this fraud must be blacklisted and all postings involving him/her be removed from the archives. Regards, Bh. Krishnamurti At 06:50 28/02/99 +0500, you wrote: >Dear list members, > The following members of the list have been posting >their letters from the same IP adress i.e., 192.31.86.34 > >N.Ganesan >Christopher Fernandez >Swaminathan Madhuresan >Keith Williams > >regards, > >sarma. > > ___________________________ Bhadriraju Krishnamurti H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" Street 9, Tarnaka Hyderabad 500017 (A.P.), India Telephone:40-7019665 E-mail: From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 28 19:35:21 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 11:35:21 -0800 Subject: Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227047076.23782.13754344118853113811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there any history of Saivaite-Vaishnavaite friction with respect to Potiyil area? As in the case of Tirupati. Regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ramakris at EROLS.COM Sun Feb 28 17:56:48 1999 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 12:56:48 -0500 Subject: Advaita-Chandran Message-ID: <161227047073.23782.5990668705922597954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ramadas wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian >Date: Sunday, 21 February 1999 3:14 >Subject: Re: Advaita-Chandran > > [deleted] >It's well accepted among Indological scholars that though the >upanishads do not present one consistent system of thought, sha.nkra's >writings are closer to what they say. At least the main ones like the >BRhadAraNyaka. Nakamura has written some penetrating analyses between >Upanishadic thoughts, early and sha.nkara VedAnta. Similarly it is >also accepted that Ramanuja's thoughts are closer to that of the >brahma sUtra-s. Of course, there some dubious "upanishads" quoted by >AnadatIrtha aka "Madhva" which lend some support to his theories. > [deleted] > >Would you care to elabourate on the "dubious" Upanishads quoted by >Anandatirtha. Are you saying that he did not use the mainstream Upanishads >and only used minor "dubious" ones? No, never said that. I only said that the _prima-facie_ interpretation of upanishhads (early ones) is _closer_ to the interpretation of sha.nkara and that the _prima-facie_ interpretation of the brahma sUtras is closer to Ramanuja's interpretation. What I meant by the statement you quote is that the prima-facie interpretation of statements in those upanishhads that lend some support to AnandatIrthas theories are "dubious". More about this later. He also quotes early Upanishads, there's no question about that. Some of what I say here is from secondary sources, but I'll try to give references as much as possible. The name "Madhva" itself is very interesting. AnandatIrtha, interprets a hymn in the R^igveda to supposedly refer to 3 incarnations of vAyu: hanumAn, bhIma and a "Madhva". The former two are mythological characters and AnandatIrtha basically identifies himself as Madhva. The sarvadarshana-sangraha written by mAdhava (identified with vidyAraNya, an advaitin and _not_ madhva!) a junior contemporary of AnandatIrtha (or slightly later) describes the doxography of various philosophical schools. When he talks about dvaita he sarcastically refers to "Madhva" as "This mystery was promulgated by pUrNa-praGYa mandira, who esteemed himself the third incarnation of vAyu", page 102, translation by E.B.Cowell. About pramANa-s: The first is from a secondary source and was given to me by a scholar of Ramanujas philosophy, who is also well read in the system of sha.nkara and "Madhva". He pointed out to me one of Madhvas curious statement. Apparently he says that not only will he quote from shAstra-s written prior to him and being written now, he'll also quote from shAstras which will be written in the future!!! Aptly, when he wants to split sandhi in the chhAndogya statement "AtmAtatvamasi" (usually given a non-dualist meaning) as AtmA - atattvamasi (Atman, that thou art NOT) he quotes some weird text called the brahma-tarka!! In other places he quotes an unknown text called parama-upanishhad! He quotes many dubious texts and not just upanishhads. When he talks about the mANDUkya he says it was revealed by vishhNu in the form of a frog. The text quoted is a verse from garuDa (or nArada, sorry I am quoting from memory). But Karmarkar in his study of the gauDapAda kArikas points out that this verse is not to be found in any extant manuscript of the purANa. One could say that these texts might be lost. Perhaps so in the case of purANa-s, but it is somewhat curious that the upanishhads like the parama and other texts like brahma-tarka which he uses in _key_ places have not been conserved by his school, though they have had an uninterrupted tradition from the time of AnandatIrtha! appayya dIxita was a scholar who lived in the 1500s and made contributions to many fields like philosophy to poetics. He openly accuses AnandatIrtha of manufacturing upanishhad statements. Now, appayya was an advaitin and we have to be careful. But appayya was also an "inclusivist" ("Inclusivism" has been much discussed by Halbfass, Oberhammer et al. ). Though he wrote a book called rAmAnujamatakhaNDanam criticizing Ramanuja's philosophy, he also wrote a commentary on one of deshika's poems on vishhNu. deshika is one of the premier scholars of Ramanuja sidhhAnta. Thus appayya was an "inclusivist". But appayya does not have even one kind word to say about Madhva, so we may take it he really believed that Madhva manufactured statements from upanishhads. He hotly disputes at many places Madhva's contention that he was an incarnation of vAyu. This reference was given by a friend a long time back, I haven't read the book myself. "V.S. Ghate in the book 'The vedanta, a study of BS with the bhashyas of Shankara, Ramanuja, Nimbaraka, Madhva, and Vallabha.' compares a few major suutras. He concludes that Madhva's commentary on brahmasuutra is not only inadequate, but makes unreasonable and distorted interpretations of statements, and often gives scriptural citations of doubtful authority. " Perhaps, that will give some more instances of "dubious" claims. This all points out to the evolution of what "authoritative" texts are. A great discussion of evolution of "authoritative statements" by Prof Aklujkar can be found in http://www.columbia.edu/cu/dhirc/1994-95seminars.html under "Twists and Turns in the Transition from Veda to Vedanta". Even then Madhva is probably an extreme in the spectrum because he probably really believed he was an incarnation of vAyu and hence could "see" upanishhads and other texts which others could not. So, as an exegite he is very uninteresting since he can quote arbitrary things as shruti or smR^iti, which he seems to do (by the status of being vAyu!). But from a philosophical standpoint he is certainly interesting. Rama PS: BTW, Madhva also claims he read various commentaries on the bhAgavata purANa, including one by hanumAn! The first example of anyone quoting hanumAn as an exegite!! From JHOUBEN at PCMAIL.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun Feb 28 12:06:30 1999 From: JHOUBEN at PCMAIL.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 13:06:30 +0100 Subject: gavaamayana-sattra in Gangakhed Message-ID: <161227047065.23782.2828258354718404165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (Forwarded message) GAVAAMAYANA SATTRA (A Year-Long Sacrificial Session) Sacrifice is the essence of Vedic religion. A performer of purely vedic sacrifice is required to establish three fires and perform daily Agnihotra, fortnightly Darsapurnamasa and other occasinal sacrifices. In the Soma sacrifices juice of the Soma plant is extracted and offered. In the sacrifice oblatains are made with sacred purpose to two visible symbols of god namely the Fire and the Sun and this relation is established between the Universol energy and human beings. Sacrifices are performed in the time connecting the two natural periods. Human life is also a connecting period where one should try to acquire divine values through the performance of sacrifices. It is said that gods achievemed godhood through the sacrificial performances established in worship, organisation and donation. Therefore the institution of sacrifice should be protected and augmented with our available sources and energy. Soma sacrifices can be performed either in one day, two days or even more. The sacrifices spreading over twelve or more days are called Sattra (Sacrificial Session). Gavamayana is a sacrificial session which requires one year-long period of Soma offerings. In the Sattra the priests are considered to be sacrificers of equal status leaving aside the relation of patron and protagee. Thus Sattra is a saacred performance symbolizing equality and cooperation. After a long gap of centuries or rather a millennium, Gavaamayana Sattra is to be performed from 28th March 1999 to 16th April 2000 in Gangakhed (District Parbhani, Maharashtra) under leadership of Shri Selukar Maharaj who has completed a series of Somayagas from time to time and place to place in the last 30 years in South and North India. The sacrificial session which he proposes to perform will be a very rare and unique historic incidence in the field of religious activities. It will attract the attention of all the academicians as well as the followers of the Vedic religion from all over the world. All the people who have firm faith in the Vedic religion are therefore requested to donate generously to this noble cause. Kindly extend your cooperation to the following address: Organizing Committee of Gavamayana Sattra Gangakhed , Dist. Parbhani, Maharashtra India, Pin Code: 431 514 Phone : 02453 - 22623 (enquiries for further information are to be directed only to the above- mentioned address+tel.no., not to the 'forwarder' of the message) From lengqie at GMX.NET Sun Feb 28 12:41:26 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 13:41:26 +0100 Subject: Personal attacks on the list Message-ID: <161227047069.23782.7769328362101751534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The IP address 192.31.86.34 translates to a system named proxy2a.lmco.com. > lmco.com is the domain name for Lockheed Martin..... Lockheed-Martin Corporation 1401 Del Norte Street Denver, Co 80221 tel: 303-430-2049 Fax: 303-657-5789 Sincerely Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From lengqie at GMX.NET Sun Feb 28 12:41:26 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 13:41:26 +0100 Subject: Personal attacks on the list In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990228105719.2cb7d15e@hd1.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227047067.23782.1779234717716356721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dominik: > > > I have noticed that Venkatarama Iyer and Ganesan send postings from two > identical IP accounts: 209.223.25.112 and 192.31.86.34. Ip 204.68.140.34 of Venkatarama Iyer translates also like: Lockheed-Martin Corporation (LMCO-DOM) 1401 Del Norte Street Denver, CO 80221 Domain Name: LMCO.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Lockheed Martin NIC (LMN-ORG) lm-nic at LMCO.COM 303-430-2049 Fax: 303-657-5789 Regards Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU Sun Feb 28 20:24:56 1999 From: rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU (Kandiah Ramanitharan) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 14:24:56 -0600 Subject: Personal attacks on the list Message-ID: <161227047083.23782.11926418683971056734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not an indology expert, but just a silent observer in this forum for some time. I used to send mails in other forums in pesudonames, but not abusive. (When Iwant to abuse someone, I wish to do the abuse in my own identity, as I know it hurts a lot and is in the same frequency of the person usually voices;-)) However, what I was able to see in this forum is, Prof. Krishnamurti's and Mr.DEVARAKONDA VENKATA NARAYANA SARMA's inborn hatred towards Tamil. I do not think Dr.Dominik or any other long term subscriber in this forum could not have a chance to realize this attitudes of these two gentlemen. Given I am a newcomer to this forum, could anyone in this forum, point me out an issue in which Prof. Krishnamurti and Mr. Sarma agreed that Tamil has some characteristics that is to be appreciated. And, could anyone point me out a mail in which these two contradict even in a single point when it comes towards Tamil bashing (direct or indirect)? If both of these gentlemen are all Tamil haters with identical interest, supporting each other all the time while living states apart in India, puleeese... enlighten me, what is wrong in four people with the same IP addresses (or a person with four 'spilt personalities') show their interests in the similar way? People who try to give a definition to the 'scholarly community' should know when it comes for the language or culture, each and everyone who has the same interest may spontaneously come together and fall into a group. Whoever they are (or according to the our Honorables, he is), I appreciate them (or him) for what they (or he) is doing with an assumption that they (or he) are (is) not INITIATING personal attacks. Some people should take a dose of their own medicine. They may have a chance to get cured, unless it is a terminal desease. In this forum, I can see two possible names that can be better used as the root words for syntesizing a word that CAN be an appropriate synonym to McCarthism or witch-hunting. I am totally sickened by these two gentlemen's hatred for a lauguage. And, I still wonder and in search of..... ................................... what the real definition of Scholarly community is. Regards, Kandiah Ramanitharan At 11:23 AM 2/28/99 +0500, you wrote: >Dominik: > > >I have noticed that Venkatarama Iyer and Ganesan send postings from two >identical IP accounts: 209.223.25.112 and 192.31.86.34. > >Please look into the matter. It is a rare coincidence that five different >individuals are posting through hotmail (which is freely provided) from the >same IP address. This is the worst kind of fraud of the century foisted on >the scholarly community. Another coincidence is that they are all Tamil >lovers with identical interest, supporting each other all the time. Anybody >can check if these five are one and same or different. If they are proved to >be one and the same, the ghost behind this fraud must be blacklisted and all >postings involving him/her be removed from the archives. Regards, > >Bh. Krishnamurti > > > > > >At 06:50 28/02/99 +0500, you wrote: >>Dear list members, >> The following members of the list have been posting >>their letters from the same IP adress i.e., 192.31.86.34 >> >>N.Ganesan >>Christopher Fernandez >>Swaminathan Madhuresan >>Keith Williams >> >>regards, >> >>sarma. >> >> >___________________________ >Bhadriraju Krishnamurti >H.No. 12-13-1233, "Bhaarati" >Street 9, Tarnaka >Hyderabad 500017 (A.P.), India >Telephone:40-7019665 >E-mail: > > ____________________________________________________________________________ Kandiah Ramanitharan Graduate Student Department of Civil & Environmental Engineering Tulane University, 6823 St. Charles Avenue, New Orleans, LA 70118-5674 U.S.A. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Residence: 2511 S. Carrollton Avenue, Apt #102 New Orleans, LA 70118 U.S.A. Ph: (O) (504) 862-3263 / (504) 862 8000 1777 (H) (504) 866 9693 Fax: (504) 862 8941 e-mail: rkandia at mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu ramanitharank at hotmail.com ____________________________________________________________________________ From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Sun Feb 28 19:56:07 1999 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 14:56:07 -0500 Subject: CilappatikAram date Message-ID: <161227047080.23782.8066932345993481949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Peter Mares: I am a member of the list. I have noticed these messages, apparently about addresses of origin. Can you explain what they mean? What is the problem here? Dr. George Cronk Bergen Community College Paramus, New Jersey -----Original Message----- From: Petr Mares To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Sunday, February 28, 1999 2:43 PM Subject: Re: CilappatikAram date > Regarding the date of CilappatikAram, Dear Mr. Ganesan Rather then the date would you please be so kind and explain us the strange coincidences bellow: Venkatarama Iyer 209.44.32.18 Savvis ISP 192.31.86.34 LM Comp. Naga Ganesan 209.223.24.185 Savvis ISP 204.68.140.34 LM Comp. Swaminathan Maduresan 216.118.10.235 Savvis ISP 204.68.140.34 LM Comp. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From matsya at IBM.NET Sun Feb 28 07:26:34 1999 From: matsya at IBM.NET (JM) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 20:26:34 +1300 Subject: Bengali instruction Message-ID: <161227047061.23782.6392725163666020293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Any advice for English-speaking students wanting to learn Bengali? Recommended texts? Summer courses or periodic intensive courses anywhere? recommended full courses of study at universities, institutes on the Indian subcontinent, etc.? Thank you, Mohit Matsya From lengqie at GMX.NET Sun Feb 28 19:43:40 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 20:43:40 +0100 Subject: CilappatikAram date In-Reply-To: <19990228154820.23162.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047078.23782.14266764605739393044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Regarding the date of CilappatikAram, Dear Mr. Ganesan Rather then the date would you please be so kind and explain us the strange coincidences bellow: Venkatarama Iyer 209.44.32.18 Savvis ISP 192.31.86.34 LM Comp. Naga Ganesan 209.223.24.185 Savvis ISP 204.68.140.34 LM Comp. Swaminathan Maduresan 216.118.10.235 Savvis ISP 204.68.140.34 LM Comp. Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From lengqie at GMX.NET Sun Feb 28 20:36:19 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 21:36:19 +0100 Subject: CilappatikAram date In-Reply-To: <003601be6354$6abb1200$6c7f0a3f@MSN/george9252> Message-ID: <161227047085.23782.3446398387698464177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Cronk I would first like to give chance to the bellow named five people to explain their sharing of the same two nodes, to apologize for their nasty attacks and especially Mr. Iyer I suppose should be so glad and tell us why he moved just now behind the new proxy. If they do not explain the coincidence I will be glad to provide the explanation or leave it to Dominik Wujastyk to do so. Sw. Madhuresan 192.31.86.34 lm corp 216.118.10.235 Savvis ISP Venk. Iyer 204.68.140.34 lm corp 209.44.32.18 Savvis ISP Chr. Fernandez 204.68.140.34 lm corp 216.118.10.223 Savvis ISP Naga Ganesan 192.31.86.34 LM Corp 209.223.24.185 Savvis ISP Keith Williams 192.31.86.34 LM Corp Sincerely Petr Mares > Dear Peter Mares: I am a member of the list. I have noticed these > messages, apparently about addresses of origin. Can you explain what they > mean? What is the problem here? > > Dr. George Cronk > Bergen Community College > Paramus, New Jersey > > -----Original Message----- > From: Petr Mares > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Date: Sunday, February 28, 1999 2:43 PM > Subject: Re: CilappatikAram date > > > > Regarding the date of CilappatikAram, > > Dear Mr. Ganesan > Rather then the date would you please be so kind and explain us > the strange coincidences bellow: > > Venkatarama Iyer > 209.44.32.18 Savvis ISP > 192.31.86.34 LM Comp. > Naga Ganesan > 209.223.24.185 Savvis ISP > 204.68.140.34 LM Comp. > Swaminathan Maduresan > 216.118.10.235 Savvis ISP > 204.68.140.34 LM Comp. > > Sincerely > > Petr Mares > > > Petr Mares > Lengqie Research > Hlavacova 1163 > 182 00, Prague 8 > Czech Republic > Fax:420-2-2423-9157 > Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 > email: lengqie at gmx.net Petr Mares Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163 182 00, Prague 8 Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157 Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Tue Feb 2 22:18:53 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 17:18:53 -0500 Subject: karmakAra and karmakara Message-ID: <161227045898.23782.6334108596365388642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The classical Tamil text cilappatikAram (2nd-4th century AD) uses the word "karumakArar" ("karmakAra") in the sense of some craftsman such as as a smith (blacksmith) in chapter 5's beginning where the auhtor iLaGkO gives a long list of occupations engaged in by the residents of maruvUrppAkkam a "blue collar"-like or "downtown"-like area of pUmpukAr the Tamil port city. I do not have the text with me right now. Hope somebody else could help here with the specific line. Regards Chandra From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Thu Feb 11 21:24:26 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 16:24:26 -0500 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990211194054.9295.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046206.23782.13182607230052290075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 11 Feb 99, Christopher Fernandez wrote: > Are there any reasons why India cannot make a switchover > to AIR script? There have been several attempts made to adopt Roman script for Indian languages but none have succeeded so far partly because number of characters in Roman is not sufficient for Indian sounds and there could be no agreement as to which Roman character should correspond to a Devnagri or Urdu character. I have noticed on this list itself that there is no unanimity to represent the same Devnagri character with a unique Roman character. The most important reason for failure of all such attempts is the inertia. Changing a script is most difficult thing to accept when USA has not even been able to accept the Metric system for weights and measures and UNO has not been able to adopt the World Calender which was proposed several times in 60s and 70s. Do you think Russians would be ready to accept Roman script even though Cyrillic alphabet has so many common characters with Roman? From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Thu Feb 11 22:24:09 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 17:24:09 -0500 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman translitera tion Message-ID: <161227046209.23782.14834057122959327882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Christopher Fernandez > > I wrote the original after browsing through a new book > explaining why the Chinese script must go and NOT the language: > Wm. C. Hannas, Asia's orthographic dilemma, Hawaii, 1997. > Yeah...let us then become bit-spitting robots... eat plastic and drink electricity.... If people with totally disparate langauges and cultural backgrounds could perform extensive trade and cultural exchange with the relatively primitive communication and trasnport mechanisms 1700+ years ago, why can't we with the technology that sent man to moon three decades ago?. Technology ought to accocmmodate human idiosyncracies not the other way around. We have to start a movement to preserve the *cultural* environment just like the one for physical/biological environment and I would put the Chiness script at the top. It is the heritage of all humanity.We are killing too many cultural elements everyday. Let ecomonics wait... chandra From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Fri Feb 12 23:35:54 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 18:35:54 -0500 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990212164900.17813.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046245.23782.16081332017436107790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 12 Feb 99, Christopher Fernandez wrote: > I have noticed on this list itself that there is no unanimity to > represent the same Devnagri character with a unique Roman character. > > Not really. A recent Indology posting is appended. Please > do click the URLs and have a look at the uniformity in > transliteration. Since you agreed in the last paragraph of this very message about the role of inertia, how do you expect clicking on url will help. There have been so many attempts made to have a unform system in the past that I doubt that any new system will be more accepted. There are at least 5 Hindi newspapers on the net and all of them use a different font. If you can persuade them to print their papers in your Romanized font then I will believe that your url has any future. > The problem referred by you is fairly recent. Indians usually > employed as Computer professionals write in nonscholarly forums > such as Newsgroups and mount their Websites depending on what > they think is more apt. On this very list, I have seem different "academics" of your type use z,s, c for the same devnagri character. You cannot blame computer professional for all the ills. > >The most important reason for failure of all such attempts is the > >inertia.... > > I agree with you 100% I hope it gets you in the best of spirits. ?1999 Aditya Mishra homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya or http://members.rediff.com/adityanm Page me online via http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1131674 Random thought of the day: Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first.---Mark Twain From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Fri Feb 12 23:35:54 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 18:35:54 -0500 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman translitera tion In-Reply-To: <9130EFB0684CD211869E0020484016B512C2A9@satlmsgusr07.delta-air.com> Message-ID: <161227046247.23782.17755931995721653991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 11 Feb 99, Chandrasekaran, Periannan wrote: > > We have to start a movement to preserve the *cultural* > environment just like the one for physical/biological environment > and I would put the Chiness script at the top. > It is the heritage of all humanity.We are killing > too many cultural elements everyday. Do you expect people to go back and start living on the trees like apes or home eructus too if that is the price for preserving cultural elements? Human beings have survived only because of their superior communication skills and any hurdles in that would be reactionary and retrograde step. Local dialect and language served well when people did not need to communicate with people just a few miles away but now the entire world is a single village and we need one language and we can depend on the few translators who may have their own limitations. There are ample instances where major misunderstanding have resulted due to wrong translations. It is not without significance that home sapiens is just one species regardless of where one lives. Therefore preservation of culture cannot be equated with preservation of species. I hope it gets you in the best of spirits. ?1999 Aditya Mishra homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya or http://members.rediff.com/adityanm Page me online via http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1131674 Random thought of the day: Scott's first Law: No matter what goes wrong, it will probably look right. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Feb 13 08:38:05 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 03:38:05 -0500 Subject: rOman skript (was Re: Word splitting...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227046259.23782.12991081794765148731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 12 Feb 99, Narayan S. Raja wrote: > (why is "Y" different from "y"?) Unfortunately the computer hardware prices came down too rapidly. Had IBM1400 etc with 6 bit characters remained standard for a few more years there would remained only capital letters as was the case in 60s. With 8bit characters, the inertia set in and it became impossible to get rid of the redundancy. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Feb 13 18:13:55 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 13:13:55 -0500 Subject: Hindi Email Message-ID: <161227046282.23782.16705576067486585489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Has any one tried emil in Hindi (Devnagri scipt) available from: http://www.epatra.com/ Please let me know since I want to try this too. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sun Feb 14 03:28:25 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 99 22:28:25 -0500 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <199902132020.BAA12518@mbg.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227046307.23782.4928598875306658428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 14 Feb 99, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > A Pakistani visiting professor of Urdu at Heidelberg mentioned in a > lecture that the oldest mss. of Tulasi Dasa's Ramayana (in so-called "Old > Hindi") are written in Urdu script. Has anybody looked into the matter > sufficiently to confirm whether this is so? I may not hold an academic position in Indology but I have studied Hindi at Sahityaratna level and have enough first hand knowledge about Tulsidas and all his works and feel very frustrated that some one would even mention such a possibility on the basis of a Pakistani professor. This is the kind of ridiculous insinuations that have resulted in the allegations about the lack of honesty and integrity on this list recently about Christians and missionaries having ulterior motives. I know that Tulsidas did not write any manuscript in Urdu script and 3 or 4 original manuscripts in Tulsidas' own handwriting are still available. Therefore even if some one else had written Ramchartimanas (Not Ramayan which was written by Valmiki in Sanskrit and not by Tulsidas in Urdu) in Urdu script, it could not be the oldest manuscript by any stretch of imagination. The Pakistani scholar does not even seem to know the difference between Ramayan and Ramcharitmanas. Urdu and HIndi are essentially the same languages grammatically except that those who write in Urdu seem to prefer vocabulary derived from Persian or Arabic even if vernacular local word is available. I must admit that many Hindi writers have also made it a point to coin or use Sanskrit word in their works but they have not become popularly accepted and Tulsidas was not one of them. Urdu is not a native language of even Pakistan and secession of Bangladesh was the primarily a result of the imposition of Urdu by the Muslim leadership raised in UP or Bombay. The Urdu speakers of Pakistan are still known as Refugees (Mujahirs) in Pakistan and have not been assimilated in Pakistan even after 53 years and are resented by the local people because they think they are superior to the native Pakistanis. It is sad situation for muslims both in Pakistan and India. While Indian muslim were left with no capable leadership after 1947 since they left to take over most the government jobs in Pakistan. The leaders who went to Pakistan could never be accepted by the local citizenry and are still suspect of disloyalty. The muslim leadership in India is still harping on special status for Urdu in UP, Hyderabad and Delhi. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Mon Feb 15 14:04:34 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 09:04:34 -0500 Subject: Script and religion In-Reply-To: <199902151049.PAA01517@mbg.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227046359.23782.11207806862729723473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 15 Feb 99, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > remembered this remark because I found it so surprising. Since I am not a > Hindi specialist, I did not know how to check, and moreover I found it > insufficiently interesting to enquire until now. The matter of script was > brought up on this list (note: not by me), and in good faith I enquired. > If anybody feels upset by this, I am sorry that I cannot really say that I > am sorry. :-) My comments were not directed at you but at the Pakistani representative who made such baseless statements based on his political viewpoint. You know me pretty well by now to realise that I am far from being a linguistic chauvinist. > By the way, Amir Khusrau (who lived well before Tulsidas) wrote in > different varieties of language called 'Hindavi' and even 'Hindi', and he > used Urdu script. So please realise that my enquiry is not facetious. I did not deny that many poets used either of the two scripts but Tulsidas was not one of them although he used many words derived from Persian commonly used by HIndi/Urdu speakers. Most Hindi/Urdu speaking people do converse in the same language but somehow when it comes to writing they seem to be influenced by religion more than anything else. A more recent extension of the same mixing of religion into languages is the Sikh's everyday use of a script, Gurmukhi named so because it was used in the writings of Sikh gurus only. Native panjabi speakers mostly used Urdu script before creation of Pakistan and after that changed to using Devnagri script. It is like adoption of Pali by Buddhists against the backdrop of Sanskrit. There is nothing wrong in using a script that comes easier to the users but to make it a political issue out of it and to start killing others is abominable. In my previous note I have explained how the issue of Urdu has been so divisive even for Pakistanis. In India, it is still an active issue with muslims living as far as Andhra Pradesh where local language is not even Hindi but Telgu. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Mon Feb 15 14:22:40 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 09:22:40 -0500 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990215102220.27337.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227046365.23782.8682115345251630395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 15 Feb 99, U Hayavadana wrote: > but you don't even need the other 26 if you write like me! and no indian > script has capitals either. I think even English would be completely understandable if they dispense with the capitals at all and many words that require a capital in English do not need in French. Moreover some of the 26 characters are redundant or very rarely used and could easily be dispensed with and a few more symbols could be added for missing sounds to make Roman script more logical and universal. Unless English speakers cannot be persuaded to do that it is unfair for speakers of other language to adopt a script which is not the most scientific in the first place. > >> we can use the technology that is already developed for western > >> languages (like standardised computer and printing equipment) The standardization is the key problem for Indian scripts not the script itself because nobody really cares for it in India. If Chinese, Arabic and Japanese can be standardized with many more nonlinear characters it should be much easier to do so for Indian scripts, I hope it gets you in the best of spirits. ?1999 Aditya Mishra homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya or http://members.rediff.com/adityanm Page me online via http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1131674 Random thought of the day: Hoare's Law of Large Problems: Inside every large problem is a small problem struggling to get out. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Feb 20 15:02:03 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (=?utf-8?Q?Aditya=2C_the_=5D-=5Bindu__=24kepti=C2=A2?=) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 10:02:03 -0500 Subject: Word splitting & hyphenation conventions in roman transliteration In-Reply-To: <19990220133114.6315.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227046667.23782.5661160136736333224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 20 Feb 99, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > Not in China at all!! And not for the near future at any case. > > Hope China doesn't go for English learning or Roman script. > Good for India in exporting computer software and professionals :-) It shows how misinformed are you of the status of Chinese software. There are more internet sites in China than in India and they produce more software (mostly pirate) than any other country regardless of the script of their native language. Learning two scripts is not a very difficult task and as a matter of fact helps in compartmentalizing two languages. From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Mon Feb 22 15:05:16 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 10:05:16 -0500 Subject: Malaya 5th. cent corrected Message-ID: <161227046765.23782.14940951954823942636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: N. Ganesan [mailto:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] > > > <<< > it is more likely to have been derived from campai/caNpu/campu > meaning "elephant grass". campai also means "luxuriant growth". > > > I think caNpai is the name of ciirkAzi. The tevaram saint > Jaanacampantar born at ciirkAzi calls the town that way. A tEvAram publication says that cIrkAzi is called caNpai (among about a nearly dozen other names) after the type of grass and associates that grass with KrishNa atoning at the cIrkAzi temple for his guilt regarding the destruction of his clan due to campai grass. It must also be noted that cIrkAzi seems to have been within the limits of the ancient pUmpukAr metropolis. UVS Iyer states that sOmatIrtam and cUryAtIrtam of the nearby popular temple "tiruveNkATu" (swEtAraNyam) must be the same as the cOmakuNTam and cUryakuNTam of pUmpukAr mentioned by cilappatikAram and hence the temple itself have been within the pUmpukAr metropolitan area. chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Mon Feb 22 16:56:43 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 11:56:43 -0500 Subject: Kashmir, Tamilnadu, Panini, Abhinavagupta, etc. Message-ID: <161227046771.23782.15008944382005180366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Narayan S. Raja [mailto:raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU] > A site that Buddhists > believed to be Potalaka > (comparable in importance > for Buddhists, to Kailasam or > Vaikuntam for Hindus) is likely > to have abundant archaeological/ > literary/historical evidence > that it was an important > Buddhist site. > By the same token, I suppose one would expect Mount Kailash to be abundant with arcaheological evidence of Saivaite activity...? chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Feb 26 13:33:18 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 08:33:18 -0500 Subject: the word "potiyil" in classical Tamil (was Re: the word "poti yil" inside MaNimEkalai) Message-ID: <161227046957.23782.11953309555917465500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD [mailto:jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR] > > To summarize, the word "potiyil" is > * not used at all to refer to Mount Potiyil > * used 3 times to refer to a public hall (or a hall for worship?) > (H7, H8, H9) > > H7 = tiru-226 (Chelliah, p.355) > H8 = matu-161 (Chelliah, p.241) > H9 = paTTi-249 (Chelliah, p.45) > > I hope this is useful to somebody :-) > Naturally, people are usually more interested in positive :-)) > than in negative evidences :-( > > In paripATal, an anthology of 20+ poems, one of the poems that opens with extensive astronomical/astrological description of some events uses the phrase "potiyil mun2ivan2" to refer to the the asterism "agasthya". Also I was curious about the place "chitrakUTam" mentioned in rAmAyaNam as one of the first places where rAman stays. I understand potiyil siva temple is referred to as cittiracapai (chitrasabha). Is it also called chitrakUtam? are there other places in India that have been called chitrakUtam traditionally. I remmeber having read in the book "108 vaiNavath thala varalARu" that chidambaram also is refered to by a name similar to "chitrakUtam". chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Feb 26 20:23:23 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 15:23:23 -0500 Subject: Re Potala(ka), etc Message-ID: <161227046979.23782.13390169153562479104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: N. Ganesan > SrimAn. V. Iyer is correct in this. CilappatikAram, conservatively > dated in 5th century AD by Western academics, speaks of Tirupati > (ie., VEGkaTam) as belonging to Vishnu. Also, hundreds of poems > by Srivaishnava Alvars as Tirupati belonging to Vishnu. > > From the book in Tamil "108 VaiNavath thhivya thEsa varalARu" authored by A. etirAjan published by the Sri VaiNava sidhdhAntha Publishers, 1995. The earliest account it gives of Thiruppathi is this involving toNTaimAn king(s) who ruled the north tamilakam (centered around kAJcipuram): ... "the toNTaimAn king, who was granted the Lord's discus and conch by the Lord at a desperate stage in his battle with his enemies to enable his eventual victory, petitioned the lord to grant His appearance with the discus and the conch to no human being other than himself (the king); the Lord grated that wish and he appeared without those from then on. There is no mention of which specific toNTaimAn was involved here even though there are many such incidents involving this toNTaimAn.".... (page 666) and a few paras later on page 667... "When rAmAnujar (the great vaishNavaite master ca.12th century AD?) visited this temple, he heard people referring to the Lord as some sort of Siva and as belonging to a non-VaishNavaite sect of Hinduism owing to the lack of the discus and the conch in the Lord's hands as is common with ThirumAl at other temples. And on the toNTaimAn king's behest, Ramanujar requested the Lord to start showing his discus and conch again to everybody and his request was granted..." Chandra > From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Feb 26 21:04:23 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 16:04:23 -0500 Subject: news: Cholas took care to copy old inscriptions when renovating t emples Message-ID: <161227046988.23782.2072420054972563060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >???From the Hindu On Line: ---------------- Resurrecting inscriptions Date: 27-02-1999 :: Pg: 05 :: Col: a By Our Special Correspondent TIRUCHI, Feb. 26. The care taken by the Chola kings during renovation of temples and how scrupulously they copied the inscriptions on the dilapidated portions on the newly constructed portions after renovation have come to light, the discovery of old and new inscriptions on the walls of the Perumal temple in Natham village, near Pullambadi, about 40 km from here. ----------------- For a complete report see: http://www.webpage.com/hindu/daily/990227/04/04272239.htm