Astronomy (Agarwal)

[Michael Witzel]

After reading the message quoted below, members of Indology perhaps can
understand Dominik Wujastyk's sigh of exasperation. I add my own one(s)
here.

For the first kind, i.e.  "I am new... isn't X interesting", there is only
one answer:

        "READ the "scope of INDOLOGY statement" on the Indology web site!"

 i.e. "The forum is targetted at professional participants ... not
primarily for ... undergraduates ... amateur interest...;  elementary
questions ..elsewhere;  ....    you are welcome to lurk....

etc. , etc.,  et  cetera.


This is the reason why the following message is to be seen as sign of
exasperation not "haughtiness". I for one simply do not have the time which
some seem to have to send off three messages each day,  in "forceful
language on a topic [I]  feel passionate about"....

At 19:03 -0800 12/7/99, Vishal Agarwal wrote:
>MW wrote:
>the S'B is an IRON AGE text throughout, just about
>pre-Buddhist.  Which puts its smack into the first half of the first mill.
>BCE.
>VA: 'Just about pre-Buddhist'--> Please give a date for the text (centuries)
>and let us know which of your principles you have adopted for this date
>(date of redaction, general level etc.).

General answer : why don't you read the text yourself and see? Before
putting SUCH questions that have been answered by scores of my
predecessors.  We cannot always start from Adam and Eve (or Manu and iDA)
again and again.
I will just answer this one message and one by Elst and Manansala, as
EXEMPLARY CASES and then leave them to their own devices.

Where is Krishna Ayas/Syama Ayas
>mentioned in the text? Throughout?

Check it yourself. Ayas and derivatives occurs some 20 times throught the
text. Now take Vishva Bandhu's or other tools or even Eggeling's
translation, and see where 'black ' is used in conjunction with ayas. --
why don't you write a paper?

I do not take the bait: I am not a paid public relations officer. Of
course, if you pay me, say, a lawyer's fee of $ 200++ per hour, I will glad
to check out this question and others for you during my weekends...

>Is it mentioned in connection with some
>important applications or just by the way, with other metals? Does 'Iron'
>play an important role in this 'Iron Age' text?

Why don't you save us some time and simply look into MacDonell Keith's
Vedic Index?
Such questions are a waste of time. Chakrabarti and Rau have already
written about it in the early Seventies...  And, read D. W's descr. of
Indology (above).

>Do the passages of Shatapath
>Brahman mentioning Syama Ayasa belong to the 'general level' or the 'date of
>redaction' or the 'core' or the 'later interpolation'?

Ayas occurs throught the text. So does iron: Check zyAma and kRSNa!

>If the antiquity of
>Bhagvan Buddha is reduced by 1-2 centuries, as stated by Dr. Ganesan, how
>will it affect the date of this 'just pre-Buddhist' text?

What do you think? What could the answer to this rhetoric question be?
And who cares, as far as iron is concerned: after its introduction IT IS
THERE. Just increases in use (archaeologically).

>If the BU is one
>of the oldest Upanishad, then the 'late Upanishads' all post date this 'just
>pre-Buddhist' text?

???  "late Up.s" says it!

>Is the only reason to place an Iron Age text after 1200
>B.C.E. the non-discovery of Iron before that date? (An argument of silence).

Nope. That would be the typical  mono-lateral type of argument critized by
me already several times on this list (also, see anser to Elst) . We always
use other evidence as well.

>If in future Iron is indeed found before that date, then will the date of
>Sat Br. be affected?

Yes, *if* all the other evidence would agree... It doesn't: there are
earlier iron age texts (Atharvaveda, Yajurveda Samhitas). --  And if you do
not talk about occasional meteoric iron.

> If yes, then what is the use of linguistic theories in
>dating texts?

2 diff. kinds of methods, they must agree... And, e.g., text layers, see above.

>Considering that chemically, Iron is one of the highest metals
>in the reactivity series (After K, NA, Mg, Al, Zn--> Zn passivates on
>oxidation) and the fact that Fe2O3 is porous and its hydroxide is
>gelatinous, how sure are we that iron artifacts can indeed survive several
>millenia in a humid environment where the water table is very high?

Aho, bata!  Because it has been found. From E. Baluchistan to Bihar. Read
any excavation report.
Or summaries such as Agrawal, Allchin etc etc etc.

_____________

>MW: .... Kak etc. would have me as a medieval person...
>VA: Well, that certainly reminds me of the argument of the Eminent Historian
>Dr. Romila Thapar (who, according to you has made an uncritical use of
>Pauranic data)

correct, she was in the mid seventies. No longer today. WE actually learn...

> who says "The position of constellations might have been
>remembered and passed on from generation to generation. ...
>Well, I am sure that IE speakers had more important things to pass on over
>centuries (ballads on military victories, 'vague memories of a distant
>homeland', stories of migrations.... ) than some obscure astronomical data.

intended irony apart: How do you know? Were you there? Why do peope build a
Stonehenge? Or the Mayas their observatory? (Simple) astronomy (see Aveni)
always has been important.  Priests talk  a lot about (fairly simpe)
astronomy in the post-RV  Vedic texts. Necessary for yearly, seasonal etc.
yajnas.


>MW: (The matter of KRttikAs ... any astronomical computer program will show).
>VA: Which computer program?

Again, I am not a nurse or Indology jukku coach. ANY one will do. Say,
Voyager II.
Check it out: date (2900, 2300 BCE) + place (say Delhi or Lahore ) will do...

>Please email me a file or snail mail me your
>charts and calculations. Mention what special software applications are
>required.Explain each and every such passage in Sanskrit literature.

Yes, Sir! Coming, Sir! Everything for a raise, Sir!

>Otherwise, this is just another 'haughty dismissal'!

Nope. Just pay me for my time!

MW.

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
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my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
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