From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  1 04:52:19 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 20:52:19 -0800
Subject: Shourie
Message-ID: <161227054108.23782.8733156879974752936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While I do not know how exactly Shourie is derived, the following two bits
might be useful
1. Arun Shourie is a Punjabi Brahmin (to my knowledge)
2. Amongst Punjabis, Shourie as such is often used as a nickname for people
with the name 'Kishore' (Just like Bob for Robert). I know the example of a
'Shourie' Uncle from my childhood. His real name was Kishore Gupta.

Vishal


----Original Message Follows----
From: "N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Shourie
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:33:04 PST

Dear listers,

How is the last name Shourie as in Arun Shourie explained from
Punjabi? Is it related to Kuru country?, k & sh are interchangeable
in Vedic and Tamil (s/sh written in ta. as 'c')? Is it connected with
kulUTa, ulUTa, kuli(/u)dhara in Vedas? How is panchAla toponym
and pancha-jana in RV explained? In tamil, ko.lu = plough share,
u_lu = "to plough", u_lavar = farmer, ... (These words of farming
are several orders of magnitude important in CT than nAJcil).

Regards,
N. Ganesan, PhD

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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  1 05:01:41 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 21:01:41 -0800
Subject: SV: SV: Age of the Veda ...
Message-ID: <161227054110.23782.8178148208509490266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO>
Subject: SV: SV: Age of the Veda ...
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:32:05 +0100
Dr. Fosse asked: It would have been interesting to know more
about how Mueller's own beliefs developed. Any Muellervadins out there?

Reply:
Please see the relevant sections of the book

"Hindu Christian Enclounters" by Sita Ram Goel (2nd Ed)
Published by Voice of India, Delhi

The book tries to summarize the evolution of the religious beliefs of M
Mueller and also of other early Indologists like Griffith.

As you are aware, M Mueller is the bete noire of the Indeginous Aryan
school, and adverse critiques of his translations etc. started appearing in
his own lifetime, beginning with a scathing criticism of his interpretation
of RV in the 1870's by Swami Dayanand Sarasvati in his
Rigvedadibhashyabhumika and Rigvedabhashya.

The trend has continued ever since. Other early criticisms include the
Introduction of "Vaidik Kosha" of Pt. Hamsaraj (Lahore, 1928), "Indologists:
Their Motives and Inclinations" (Pt. Bhagvadatta; 1954) and dozens of other
tracts and books in Hindi, English and Sanskrit. The recent books of Dr. N.
Rajaram are only the latest in a continuous tradition, represented more
adequately in Hindi publications. Page after page are reproduced from the
writings and correspondence of Mueller (and Keith, Griffith, Wilson......)
to demonstrate their 'biases.' This is just FYI.

Regards

Vishal

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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  1 05:27:55 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 21:27:55 -0800
Subject: Date of RV
Message-ID: <161227054113.23782.16966278677649107799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am appalled that Dr. R Z continues to post such pathetic messages. I would
infact urge forum members to read his recent posts at the RISA-L forum in
response to a Ms. Nair which shows the fanatical Christian attitude of Dr.
RZ. (confirming doubts raised by others in this very forum)

For that matter, I am amused that Dr. RZ should attach so much importance to
the work of a 'NON PROFESSIONAL' Indologist like Rajesh Kochar.

My own personal assessment is that it was Dr. Zydenbos who UNFAIRLY brought
Nazis into this dispute in the first place. So why blame Dr. Elst? And Dr.
Zydenbos was the one who assumed that Indigenists are all Hindutavaadis. So
it his 'reassurance' which is surprising. Some people just cannot shed
pre-conceived notions.

Vishal
________________
Dr. Zydenbos wrote:
I don't know whether the 'debate', in Dr. Elst's personal view, includes
Rajesh Kochhar's recent book _The Vedic People: Their History and
Geography_ (Orient Longman, 1999). As far as I know, Elst has not
hacked that one yet. There was an article about it in _The Hindu_ a
short while back:


I found it quite reassuring to see that a leading Indian natural
scientist (director of the National Institute of Science, Technology
and Development Studies, New Delhi) with an interest in ancient
Indian history need not be a card-carrying Hindutvavaadin.

>?From the look of things, it seems Elst would have to write that
although Kochhar is an Indian and a scientist, he believes that the
Aryans entered India from outside and therefore he is in the same
camp with Hitler (as Elst wrote about me in another piece on his
website).

You'll see that Elst has this odd preoccupation with Hitler. He
brought H. into his 'review' of Deshpande & Bronkhorst too, as we
see. On the other hand, he falsely reprimanded me for supposedly
doing this (he calls this 'smearing') to one of his friends, so don't
expect any consistency, or even fairness. Keep this in mind in your
further reading, also of his messages on this list. (If anyone here has
a clue as to why Elst does this, please let me know. I'm curious.)

RZ

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  1 15:06:43 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 07:06:43 -0800
Subject: Akkadian in IVC
Message-ID: <161227054126.23782.1149438565788791868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>Looking at Tikkanen's retroflexion map, the retroflexion is
>>in the direction of Northwest to the South, and NOT from
>>Northwest to the East. If originally Indus language had
>>retroflexes, does Tikkanen's findings give a clue to
>>the original (northern) Indus language?

<
The short answer is, I don't know.  However I suspect that the Indus
language has strong links to Sumerian and also Austronesian.  Have you
also seen Malati Shendge's recent book "The Language of the
Harrapans".  She has the interesting theory that there was also a
strong Akkadian influence on this language which was taken over into
the language of the Rg Veda.  In particular she draws attention to the
names of the various Asuras which she links to Akkadian names.  She
also believes that Asura is linked via Asur to the Assyrians.
Probably very contentious but still worth a look.
>

A minor problem with Malati Shendge's theory/comparisons of Sanskrit
with Akkadian is that she does not know tamil(dravidian). Nor Munda.

Retroflexion's likely source all over India is Dravidian, acc. to
many scholars. The only sure way to "kill" drav. retroflexion origins
is to compile a list of all words from North India (texts, geography)
and let *Dravidian* experts analyze them. Let them publish these are
or not from Dravidian influence.

BTW, I browsed your book, The Tibetan oracle: ancient wisdom
for every day guidance.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM  Wed Dec  1 07:51:52 1999
From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 07:51:52 +0000
Subject: Age of the Veda ...
In-Reply-To: <v03020900b469382d35e2@[140.247.49.214]>
Message-ID: <161227054140.23782.9727738784978070491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel writes:

>* it is a pre-iron age (copper/bronze) age text of the Greater Panjab
>(incl. parts of Afghanistan).
>This sets a date ante quem of c. 1200, the earliest iron in India.
>
>(iron is, not surprisingly, found in an old section of the linguistically
>slightly later text, the Atharvaveda, both SS and PS)

Can you clarify this a little for me ?

Two points:

1. I have not kept up with the literature on this, but you must be
referring to relatively recent archaeological evidence, since the
date for the first iron in India used to be quite a bit later than
this. How extensive and how reliable is the archaeological evidence
that confirms such an early date ?

2. We know that cultures at different stages of technological
development can exist side by side for quite long periods. How can
you rule out the possibility of some iron-age technology existing at
the same time as other large areas which don't use iron at all ?

Lance Cousins

OXFORD, UK

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES:
L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk or selwyn at dtn.ntl.com




From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO  Wed Dec  1 07:02:19 1999
From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 09:02:19 +0200
Subject: Position: Senior Lectureship in Hindi
Message-ID: <161227054119.23782.17553773774747243158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Senior Lectureship in Hindi
Vacant at the Department of East European and Oriental Studies, University
of Oslo
For further information:

Edle Stang
Department of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Email: edle.stang at east.uio.no
Phone: (47) 22 85 69 79
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40

Norwegian salary level: 49-54, depending on qualifications.
Application deadline: 31 December, 1999

The lectureship is attached to the Department of East European and Oriental
Studies, University of Oslo. The department has a total of 31 permanent
academic positions (of which 6 are vacant), 4 research scholars, and 4.5
administrative positions. In addition to this vacancy, the following
positions are attached to Indo-Iranian: a professorship in Indian language
and literature (Sanskrit), a senior lectureship in Urdu and a senior
lectureship in Iranian language and literature (in particular modern
Persian).

The appointee must have academic and research qualifications in Hindi
(literature or language), plus Indian civilization and culture, including
Hinduism. A high level of proficiency in Hindi is required. It is desirable
that he/she also have academic qualifications or research experience either
in Sanskrit or another Indian language. The candidate should have
sufficient competence in Urdu to teach it at the lower level, or be
prepared to acquire such competence within two years. The candidate's work
should demonstrate familiarity with conditions in modern India. Weight
shall also be placed on the applicant's experience in popularization of
his/her field of studies.

The announcement of the position with a more detailed description of
field/discipline, duties, terms of the position, required qualifications
and other factors which will be given priority in appointing a candidate,
are available upon inquiry to the above telephone or fax numbers or at the
email address for Edle Stang given above.

The university of Oslo wishes to see more women employed in permanent
academic positions. Women are encouraged to apply.

The minimum requirement for appointment to a permanent academic position is
a completed doctoral degree or equivalent qualification. If no such
candidate presents him/herself the appointment may be altered to a
temporary lectureship for up to three years.

Candidates who are judged qualified may be called for an interview and
trial lecture.

Applications must include information about education, prior academic
appointments, if any, academic, research and pedagogical activities, plus
academic experience. Pedagogical competence and/or training is to be
documented, in accordance with "Rules for assessment and weighting of
pedagogical competence", a copy of which may be obtained upon inquiry to
the above telephone or fax numbers or at the email address for Edle Stang
given above.

Applications, with attached curriculum vitae, copies of publications
relevant to the position, and a complete list of submitted publications,
must be sent in triplicate (excepting the application and curriculum vitae
which must be sent in quadruplicate) before the deadline, to:

Department of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway


***********************************************
Ruth Laila Schmidt
Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Dec  1 09:15:08 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 09:15:08 +0000
Subject: [Age of the Veda ...]
Message-ID: <161227054106.23782.6669329100477541563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ulrike Niklas <sasun at NUS.EDU.SG> wrote: I just put the question
> to this list: how are the oldest parts of Vedic literature dated nowadays?

As you would have guessed by now, the state of knowledge nowadays is as
confused as it was, say, in Max Mueller's time and continues to be riddled
with hypotheses.

However, the following URL may be of help to you with an excellent summary
(and bibliographical notes) of Dr. Huben, on the state of the art in confused
evaluation of dates without archaeological evidence of movements of people or
languages and without palaeographic evidence (I mean, epigraphs) of PIE...
Your guess will be as good as anyone else's...

http:/sarasvati.simplenet.com/resources/Indoaryanproblem.htm

Dr. S. Kalyanaraman



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From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE  Wed Dec  1 05:09:24 1999
From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 10:39:24 +0530
Subject: Rg Veda etc.
Message-ID: <161227054112.23782.14234000226097583156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:04:18 +0100, Koenraad Elst wrote:

> Dear Mr. Sergei Schmalz, Dear Mr. Francis Parmar,
>
> You seem to be unaware that the topic of the Aryan invasion theory
> has been banned from this list.  Anyway,

"Anyway" Dr. Elst continues, so I don't mind adding a few lines
myself.

> Prof. Dinesh Agarwal's text pointed out by you is not bad but it is a
> bit obsolete.  The debate has moved on. For a discussion of recent
> contributions including the Sergent and Deshpande & Bronkhorst books,
> I invite you to visit my website:

Dear Mr. Sergei Schmalz, Dear Mr. Francis Parmar,

I don't know whether the 'debate', in Dr. Elst's personal view, includes
Rajesh Kochhar's recent book _The Vedic People: Their History and
Geography_ (Orient Longman, 1999). As far as I know, Elst has not
hacked that one yet. There was an article about it in _The Hindu_ a
short while back:

www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/1999/11/07/stories/13070671.htm

I found it quite reassuring to see that a leading Indian natural
scientist (director of the National Institute of Science, Technology
and Development Studies, New Delhi) with an interest in ancient
Indian history need not be a card-carrying Hindutvavaadin.

>?From the look of things, it seems Elst would have to write that
although Kochhar is an Indian and a scientist, he believes that the
Aryans entered India from outside and therefore he is in the same
camp with Hitler (as Elst wrote about me in another piece on his
website).

You'll see that Elst has this odd preoccupation with Hitler. He
brought H. into his 'review' of Deshpande & Bronkhorst too, as we
see. On the other hand, he falsely reprimanded me for supposedly
doing this (he calls this 'smearing') to one of his friends, so don't
expect any consistency, or even fairness. Keep this in mind in your
further reading, also of his messages on this list. (If anyone here has
a clue as to why Elst does this, please let me know. I'm curious.)

RZ




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Wed Dec  1 19:20:56 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 11:20:56 -0800
Subject: Shourie
Message-ID: <161227054138.23782.8279679748312946579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- "N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Dear listers,
>
..> and pancha-jana in RV explained? In tamil, ko.lu = plough share
I would guess that you meant ko._lu (or kozu).

The Cologne Online Tamil Lexicon:

otl kozu kozu 03 1. bar of metal, bullion; 2. ploughshare; 3. awl


> u_lu = "to plough", u_lavar = farmer, ... (These words of farming
> are several orders of magnitude important in CT than nAJcil).
>
> Regards,
> N. Ganesan, PhD
>


Regards,
P. Chandrasekaran.

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From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  1 19:22:09 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 11:22:09 -0800
Subject: Information needed
Message-ID: <161227054136.23782.16036047485474048520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is there any good book analyzing the mechanism of knowledge and
other epistemological issues, as per the various schools of Indian
philosophy?

Or any work compiling the arguments of various Indian schools, for and
against the existance of the Self.

______________________________________________________
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From bvi at AFN.ORG  Wed Dec  1 16:48:22 1999
From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 11:48:22 -0500
Subject: address of Aditya Prakashan publishers needed
Message-ID: <161227054130.23782.10303825592570986077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anyone have the address of Aditya Prakashan publishers in New Delhi?

Thanks in advance.

Chris Beetle




From boudalfa at STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE  Wed Dec  1 11:50:49 1999
From: boudalfa at STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Heike Boudalfa)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 12:50:49 +0100
Subject: Kautiliya Arthasastra
Message-ID: <161227054121.23782.15107204233302731370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

An alle Mitglieder der Indologyliste in Deutschland,
ich habe von einer Bekannten eine Anfrage erhalten, die ich hiermit
weiterleite:
Gibt es an irgendeiner deutschen Universitaet jemanden, der ueber das
"Kautiliya Arthasastra" forscht und sich damit auskennt?
Fuer Hinweise waere ich sehr dankbar.  Heike Boudalfa




From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG  Wed Dec  1 05:31:12 1999
From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 13:31:12 +0800
Subject: [Age of the Veda ...]
Message-ID: <161227054115.23782.12915436637781791119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to all the participants in the discussion.

Ulrike




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Dec  1 13:39:45 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 13:39:45 +0000
Subject: Max and Bibles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.05.9912011555530.19539-100000@hpc24.ac.iopb.res.in>
Message-ID: <161227054124.23782.9096224445511611517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr Abbas,

Please do not post messages like this to the list.  There is some
informatoin, true (the URL), but the general message you are delivering is
not informative, nor useful.  Also, it violates the INDOLOGY policy of not
discussing AIT.


On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Samar Abbas wrote:

> > Koenraad Elst wrote: " Max Mueller, whose estimate was partly
> > predetermined by his belief in Biblical chronology."
>
> As a result, Max's Biblical AIT involving only one Aryan Invasion has now
> been discarded. Instead, the hypermodern AIT involves at least 13 Aryan
> Invasions. So little Max should read another Bible :
>
> `The Bible of Aryan Invasions' by Prof. Uthaya Naidu at
>   http://dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/bibai/bibai.html  (full book)
>
> There little Max & Co. will learn about the Guptan, Asokan and Mauryan
> Aryan Invasions and be astonished at how far science has gone since Adolf.
>
> > Vishal Agarwal wrote: " And Dr. Zydenbos was the one who assumed that
> > Indigenists are all Hindutavaadis."
>
>  Good God ! What a crime - maybe he should be imprisoned along with
> Mahatma Khan. Before that, the Puranic OIT followers should read the
> Bible of AI and then try to refute hypermodern history rather than
> "slash punctured tyres".
>
> Samar
>

--
--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list




From am9s at VIRGINIA.EDU  Wed Dec  1 19:09:31 1999
From: am9s at VIRGINIA.EDU (Anne Monius)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 14:09:31 -0500
Subject: job opening
Message-ID: <161227054134.23782.12121008224216074006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA invites applications for a one-year
appointment as Lecturer in the Division of Asian and Middle Eastern
Languages and Cultures, to begin in September 2000 with the possibility of
renewal.  The ideal candidate would be able to offer Tamil language courses
at the first- and second-year levels, as well as one course in Hinduism
each semester in the Department of Religious Studies.  Ph.D. preferred;
successful teaching experience required.  Please send letter of
application, CV, and 3 current letters of recommendation to: Chair, Tamil
Search Committee; AMELC, The University of Virginia; B027 Cabell Hall;
Charlottesville, Virginia, 22903.
        Application deadline is January 17, 2000. Women and minorities are
invited to apply.  The University of Virginia is an equal
opportunity/affirmative action employer.




From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE  Wed Dec  1 15:21:42 1999
From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei Schmalz)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 16:21:42 +0100
Subject: AIT
Message-ID: <161227054128.23782.16020104481441386039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indology-List members,
please accept my respectful greetings.

        Since no discussions about AIT (Aryan Invasion Theory) are allowed here, I
would like to ask to at least provide as many as possible Internet addresses
where these discussions are held (in any possible form: both scientific and
non-scientific).

        Thank You very much in advance.

With best wishes,
Sergei Schmalz.




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Wed Dec  1 11:30:51 1999
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 17:00:51 +0530
Subject: Max and Bibles
In-Reply-To: <01bf3b0e$71683960$ce037bd4@deze-computer.pandora.be>
Message-ID: <161227054122.23782.4271743757101353773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Koenraad Elst wrote: " Max Mueller, whose estimate was partly
> predetermined by his belief in Biblical chronology."

As a result, Max's Biblical AIT involving only one Aryan Invasion has now
been discarded. Instead, the hypermodern AIT involves at least 13 Aryan
Invasions. So little Max should read another Bible :

`The Bible of Aryan Invasions' by Prof. Uthaya Naidu at
  http://dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/bibai/bibai.html  (full book)

There little Max & Co. will learn about the Guptan, Asokan and Mauryan
Aryan Invasions and be astonished at how far science has gone since Adolf.

> Vishal Agarwal wrote: " And Dr. Zydenbos was the one who assumed that
> Indigenists are all Hindutavaadis."

 Good God ! What a crime - maybe he should be imprisoned along with
Mahatma Khan. Before that, the Puranic OIT followers should read the
Bible of AI and then try to refute hypermodern history rather than
"slash punctured tyres".

Samar




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Wed Dec  1 22:20:07 1999
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 17:20:07 -0500
Subject: Age of the Veda ...
Message-ID: <161227054142.23782.11761967548007233532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

// PLease note the author of this article confuses 3200 years ago with 3200
BC.
//Iron at similar dates has been found at some other places in India also

http://www.rediff.com/news/jan/23iron.htm

Archeology find puts Iron Age back by 400 years


Archaeological excavations at the Raja Nal Ka Tila, or King Nal's Mound, has
revealed presence of iron as far back as 3200 BC, conclusively indicating
that the Iron Age began at least 400 years before hitherto believed.

Sources at the Uttar Pradesh Archaeological Department, which has been
carrying out extensive exploration of the area from the 1980s, said the
conclusion on the beginning of the Iron Age was reached after studying
stratigraphical, circumstantial and comparative evidence.

A sample has also been carbon dated to 3200 BC by the Birbal Sahni Institute
of Paleobotany in the Uttar Pradesh state capital of Lucknow. This date is
the earliest in the mid-Ganga valley and one of the earliest in the Indian
subcontinent, the sources said.

Raj Nal Ka Tila, situated in a picturesque rocky tract of the
Vijaygarh-Naugarh region of Uttar Pradesh, had been recently made familiar
to television viewers through the serial Chandrakanta. The region is not
only famous for the valour of the Rajput princes, with ballads about battles
and love tales, but also for its treatment of cultural heritage.

According to folklore, Naal Ka Tila was the capital of Raja Nal, the king
who had to leave is kingdom following a curse but was reunited with his
beloved consort Damayanti after undergoing all sorts of travails in the
forests.

A similar fate befell his subjects at a later date. They were forced to
migrate to Varansi due to the repeated havoc created by the floods in the
Karmanas river. Nal Ka Tila is said to be even more ancient than Varanasi.

The Shiva Linga, which is still being worshipped at the Naleshwar-Mahadeva
temple, was installed by King Nal himself, according to legends.

Archaeolgists, on the basis of the finds consisting of stone artifacts and
ceramics, unearthed around the temple and the gullies worn out by rain up to
Talla village, surmised the presence of reolothic chalcolithic remains at
the site.

A paper about its significance was submitted at the 3rd World Archaeological
Congress in Delhi in 1994. Subsequently more excavations were carried out in
the area from March to May last year.

Sources said during the diggings, the uppermost layers revealed polished
pottery (NBP ware) besides bone arrow heads and stone anvils.

Iron was found at the second level, about 1.50 metres below the first shards
of painted black and red ware, gray ware and a few cord impressed ware were
also located. The pottery included button base goblet, conical base pots,
dishes and storage jars. Post holes of nuts, wattle and daubs and remains of
hearths have also been found.

Deposits found at the lowest level is marked by the absence of iron, a
different type of black and red ware, a umber of bowls and water vases. The
remains of a hut has also been found along with bones and botanical remains.


Sources said thus, Raja Nal Ka Tila has yield deposits of three cultural
phases. The earliest is devoid of any metal and on comparative basis it
could be placed in the Neolithic-Chalcolithic phase, tentatively dated
between 3500 BC and 3200 BC.

The comparable deposits of north Vindhyas and mid-Ganga valley to that of
the second cultural phase at Nal Ka Tila have generally been placed in the
Chalcolithic phase dated between 3500-3200 BC and 2800 BC.

The team that carried out the excavation comprised Rakesh Tewari, Rakesh
Kumar Srivastava and Dr K K Singh of the archaeology department.
Palaeobotanical remains were collected and studied by Dr K S Saraswat and
his student Anil Kumar Pokharia.

Carbon dating was done by Dr G Rajagoplan, director, Institute of Birbal
Sahni Palaeobotany, Lucknow.




From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE  Wed Dec  1 17:32:00 1999
From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 18:32:00 +0100
Subject: address of Aditya Prakashan publishers needed
Message-ID: <161227054132.23782.16710836901290078860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To Chris Beetle:

Aditya Prakashan
F-14/65, Model Town-II
110009 Delhi, India


fax  -91-11-328.20.47

Yours sincerely,
Koenraad Elst
http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/




From kekai at JPS.NET  Thu Dec  2 06:09:46 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 22:09:46 -0800
Subject: Date of RV
Message-ID: <161227054117.23782.13229816777472479695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vishal Agarwal wrote:
>
> I am appalled that Dr. R Z continues to post such pathetic messages.

Dr. Zybendos is a great boon to the those he attacks so zealously. He is
a brilliant study in counterproductivity.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Thu Dec  2 04:09:54 1999
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 04:09:54 +0000
Subject: Information needed
Message-ID: <161227054144.23782.10941190554400941557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nanda Chandran wrote:


> Is there any good book analyzing the mechanism of knowledge and
> other epistemological issues, as per the various schools of Indian
> philosophy?

Have you looked at the various books by the late Bimal Matilal ?  Try
a book search on the Net to see what's currently available.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  2 14:20:16 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 06:20:16 -0800
Subject: Was: Date of RV
Message-ID: <161227054159.23782.81248171256035923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 > Dr. Zybendos is a great boon to the those he attacks so zealously.
 > He is a brilliant study in counterproductivity.

As far as I know, Dr. Zydenbos' postings have been brilliant in
this scholarly forum. I believe Dravidologists will only be able
to crack many questions on ancient Indian languages, history.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

______________________________________________________
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From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  2 17:25:14 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 09:25:14 -0800
Subject: ThirujnAnasampandar and JainAs
Message-ID: <161227054169.23782.12987696758030052317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In South Indian history, there's an instance where the great Saivite
saint ThirujnAnasampandar is supposed to have converted a king from
Jainism to Saivism. Local tradition uses a word (which I don't remember)
which seems to indicate that many JainA monks were killed following the
conversion.

Being from Tamil Nadu myself and also familiar with the local customs
and practices, I cannot bring myself to believe that such a thing -
JainA monks being killed - actually happened. Ofcourse, Saiva and
Vaishnava followers can be quite sectarian. But to kill people for
the religious beliefs is not something I would associate with their
fanaticism.

Even KA Neelakanda ShAstri in his, "History of South India", rejects
the possiblity of something like that having actually happened and
suggests that the word must mean something else. In normal Tamizh
usage, when somebody in a contest gains an upperhand against his
opponent(s), the word "konnuttAn" or "he killed" is used. This doesn't
in anyway mean that there was an actual killing, but only that the
opposition was subdued. In the same way, does the word used by the
locals to indicate the conversion incident, only indicate that the
opposition (JainA) was subdued, and not any actual killing.

Can Tamizh scholars shed light on this issue?


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From tancredi at OTENET.GR  Thu Dec  2 07:54:16 1999
From: tancredi at OTENET.GR (IreneMaradei)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 09:54:16 +0200
Subject: URL of the Indology homepage
Message-ID: <161227054149.23782.2053101741527812614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here is a list of URLs on subjects relevant to what is discussed in this
list and other topics of interest (some of the URLs gleaned on the list
itself!), including of course the Indology home page.

Indological pages
-Jambudvipa                  http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/indology.htm
~Indology.UK    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/ucgadkw/indology.html
-Academic Info Eastern Religions   http://www.academicinfo.net/Eastern.html
-Alain Danielou
http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/jcloarec/danielou/ANGLAIS/index.html
 -Middle East Quarterly   http://www.allenpress.com/mieq/index.html
-Indology list homepage: http://www.uclakuk/~ucgadkw/indology.html
-International Journal of Sanskrit Studies mailing list .If you want to
subscribe to the list (avg. 3 msgs per year, free of charge) mail to:
ijts-subscribe at asiatica.org subject and/or body: subscribe
You can submit papers, read abstracts, subscribe on our page
http://www.asiatica.org


History-Aryan Invasion Theory debate
-http://www.rediff.com/news/jan/23iron.htm ( on date of iron age)
-Itihaas historical site: http://www.itihaas.com
-History of India: http://www.historyofindia.com  (then you choose the
period you want)
-Links to the history of India
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/8761/history/
-Aryan Invasion Theory :
http://www.stanford.edu/class/wct3b1/sjaiswal/aryanintro.html
-`The Bible of Aryan Invasions' by Prof. Uthaya Naidu at
http://dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/bibai/bibai.html (full book)
-http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/resources/Indoaryanproblem.htm an excellent
summary(and bibliographical notes) of Dr. Huben, on the state of the art in
confused evaluation of dates without archaeological evidence of movements of
people or languages and without palaeographic evidence (I mean, epigraphs)
of PIE...
-www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/1999/11/07/stories/13070671.htm Article in
"The Hindu" about Rajesh Kochhar's recent book _The Vedic People: Their
History and Geography_ (Orient Longman, 1999).
-Michael Witzel's (Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies-Harvard University)home
page:
-www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
-Koenraad Elst home page.( Fervent "hindutva " fan. Many articles of his
against A.I.T. )    http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/
-Arun Shourie's column  http://www.indiaconnect.com/prevash5.htm
-Ram Swarup  http://www.hindu.org/publications/ramswarup/index.html
- Anwar Shaikh    http://www.hindutva.org/AnwarShaikh/


-World Association of VEdic Studies  http://www.sunsar.com/waves/
- Dr. Herman Somers   http://users.skynet.be/sky50779/home.htm
-American Institute of Vedic Studies  http://www.vedanet.com/
-Free India (facts, anniversary, opinions): http://www.freeindia.org/
World Archaeological Congress
http://www.soton.ac.uk/jmg296/croatia/
American Friends of India   http://www.americanfriends.org
Hindu Web Universe   http://www.hindunet.org/
Harappa   http://www.harappa.com
Samacar   http://www.samachar.com
Indiastar.com    http://www.indiastar.com/
Stichting VADA   http://www.vada.nl

Religion-Spirituality

Links to India Information: Religion:
http://www.inpros.com/india/india222.html
The Hindu Universe: Introduction ( by the Global Hindu Electronic Network.
Guide to Hinduism, including the entire text of the Ramayana, Mahabharata
and other scriptures) http://www.hindunet.org/
World Congress of Ethnic Religions     http://www.wcer.org/
HinduismToday  http://www.spiritweb.org/HinduismToday/index.html
Guidance through Gita    http://www.tezcat.com/bnaik/gita/guide.html
Jainism in India: http://www.bangalorenet.com/system1/vinod/
Zoroastrianism:
http://hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/zoroastrianism.html
Mirror of India ( illustrated index of major philosphical systems and deitis
in Hinduism):
http://members.xoom.it/kundalini/kundalini-eng/
Mrs Donn's Special Selections: Daily Life Site Index ( educational site
about daily life in Greece, Egypt, Rome, India, China):
http://members.aol.com/Donnclass/indexfile.html

Books

Vedam's books( immense selection,online ordering, search facilities)
http://www.vedamsbooks.com/
India Nelines Books http://w.x4all.nl.~netlines/books.html
Findians Paradise: Latest News about books on India
http://w.netppl.fi/~findians/indiabk.html
IndiaStar Review of Books  http://www.indiastar.com/
Books from India http://www.edoc.com/jrl-bin/wilma/oth.820731869.html
Sarasu Books http://www.sarasu.hypermart.net
India Internet Book Fair http://www.oscarindia.com/
India Bookhouse&Journals (based in U.S.A.) http://www.indiabookhouse.com
India Books http://www.indiaookstore.com/
India Club  (Indian publishers and distributors)
http://www.indiaclub.com/aboutus.htm.
Oxford Bookstore Gallery (in Calcutta) http://www.oxford-india.com/
Nesma Books India (on spirituality and religion)
http://www.nesmabooksindia.com
Radiff Bookshop (India)
http://www.rediff.co.in/cqi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/therediffbookstore
Roli Books (books on India) http://rolibooks.com
Verandah Books http://www.verandah.demon.co.uk
Navneet Publication (children's books) http://www.navneet.com
Asia bookhouse  http://www.wespawner.com/users/ASIABOOKHOUSE/
Bombay's unique philosophy bookshop
http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1995/Jan_2/msg00047.html
India Info: Books  http://indiafocus.indiainfo.com/media/books
Asian Studies WWW Virtual Library
http://coombs.anu.edu.au/WWWVL-AsianStudies.html
India Books http://members.tripod.com/adaniel.books.html
Prentice Hall of India http://www.phindia.com
Manohar Books-India http://members.tripod.com/ravindrapc/Books.html
India Search Worldwide http://hindustan.net/Culture/Books/
Search Engine for India http://search.keralanadu.com/Books_and_Periodicals/
Indian Imprint http://www.bookindia.com
Music of India: Books (books on Indian music)  OOPS! I didn't write down the
URL!
Virginia University Library
http://www.lib.virginia.edu/area-studies/SouthAsia
History, religion, philosophy, ayurveda  http://www.Ipppindia.com/
Indus books (online ordering) http://www.teleport.com/~indus/
Books on Jainism http://www.ddb.com/~raphael/jain-list/resoffs.html


Tamil culture

Learn spoken Tamil   http://www.iupui.edu/rravindr/learn.html
A collection of Tamil-related web pages
http://dcwww.epfl.ch/icp/ICP-2/KK/tlinks.html
The Tennessee Tamil Server   http://tamil.math.utk.edu/




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  2 20:36:29 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 12:36:29 -0800
Subject: Data of Bhoja
Message-ID: <161227054171.23782.1523919713318463130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Do we have a date for Bhoja, who wrote a commentary on Patanjali's Yoga
SUtram called RAjamArthAnda?

______________________________________________________
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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  2 20:48:05 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 12:48:05 -0800
Subject: Data of Bhoja
Message-ID: <161227054173.23782.15255953073172084824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Nanda,

Bhoja was post-10th century. Close in time to Kumarapala who
patronized Hemacandra. Once read that there is a Sarasvati statue in
the Br. museum inscribed with his name.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

______________________________________________________
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From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Thu Dec  2 21:06:18 1999
From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 13:06:18 -0800
Subject: MN Srinivas (1916-1999)
In-Reply-To: <19991202204805.80213.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054175.23782.2758841511228783293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list-members:
Just writing to note the passing of MN Srinivas on Dec.1 in Bangalore.
Here is a brief obituary from The Hindu:

Noted sociologist dead

By Our Special Correspondent

BANGALORE, NOV. 30. Prof. M. N. Srinivas, well-known
sociologist, passed away here today following a brief illness. He was 83.
He is survived by wife and two daughters.

One of the better known sociologists, whose works attracted international
recognition, Prof. Srinivas is best known for his theory of
``Sanskritisation'' in which he had observed that the lower castes in
Indian or Hindu society emulated the upper castes and adopted their
customs and mores as a form of advancement. The theory has held good
though it has been challenged by later day sociologists.

Prof. Srinivas was also known for the methodology he had
evolved for his research projects - the evolution of the concept of
``Participant observation'' under which the researcher lived with the
people he studied. He had lived amidst the people of Rampura village in
Mysore district about which he wrote his famous treatise ``The Remembered
Village''. When his original manuscripts regarding the book were destroyed
in a fire in an American university in the Seventies, the then American
President, Richard Nixon, apologised to Prof. Srinivas.

His other better known work was ``Social Change in Modern India''.  Prof.
Srinivas, who hailed from Mysore city, had graduated from the Maharaja's
College in Mysore. His elder brother, M. N. Parthasarathy
(Patchhu) had taught English in the Maharaja's College and was better
known for his cricket commentaries.

He was later educated in Bombay and Oxford universities
and had taught Social Anthropology in Bombay, Maharaja Sayyajirao (Baroda)
and Delhi universities besides some foreign universities including Oxford,
Cambridge, Stanford, Cornell and Canberra as a visiting professor. He was
the recipient of honorary doctorates from Nice (France), Mysore, Chicago
and Delhi universities. He had been awarded the Padmabhushan by the Union
Government, and the T. H. Huxley Memorial Medal by the Royal
Anthropological Institute (England) and also the Kannada Rajyotsava Award
(1996).

Prof. Srinivas was one of the founders of the Institute for Social and
Economic Change in Bangalore along with Dr. V.K.R.V. Rao. He was its Joint
Director and later Professor Emeritus. He was also a Fellow of the
National Institute of Advanced Studies, here.





chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu
                   || socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan




From jkcowart at CARI.NET  Thu Dec  2 21:09:18 1999
From: jkcowart at CARI.NET (J. Kingston Cowart)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 13:09:18 -0800
Subject: Information needed
Message-ID: <161227054177.23782.9264708343230315686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

-----------------------

A good number of works by Matilal on logic and epistemology in
Indian though are listed at this URL:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/102-5840969-9440016

J. Kingston Cowart
<jkcowart at cari.net)
San Diego, California

=============

>Nanda Chandran wrote:
>
>> Is there any good book analyzing the mechanism of knowledge and
>> other epistemological issues, as per the various schools of Indian
>> philosophy?

Stephen Hodge responded:
>
>Have you looked at the various books by the late Bimal Matilal ?  Try
>a book search on the Net to see what's currently available.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Dec  2 14:06:51 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 14:06:51 +0000
Subject: URL of the Indology homepage
In-Reply-To: <000d01bf3c9a$6f43aec0$a77ca7c3@f0a9r2>
Message-ID: <161227054155.23782.11567127793637344110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, IreneMaradei wrote:

> ~Indology.UK    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/ucgadkw/indology.html

Unfortunately, this is incorrect.  The URL for the INDOLOGY web site is

        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html

That little tilde makes all the difference.

An easier way to the page is

        http://indology.findhere.com

but you then have to endure a bit of advertisement.


--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Dec  2 14:19:15 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 14:19:15 +0000
Subject: Was: Date of RV
In-Reply-To: <199912021312.SAA02880@mbg.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227054157.23782.9560367601677490598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Robert Zydenbos wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:27:55 PST, Vishal Agarwal wrote:
>
> > I am appalled that Dr. R Z continues to post such pathetic messages.
>
> Dear Mr Agarwal: Could you please elaborate on what is "pathetic"?

Dear Robert,

Please do not take this discussion any further in the open INDOLOGY forum.
Kindly discuss it directly with Vishal Agrawal in private.

I understand very well that you may feel publicly insulted, and therefore
wish to defend yourself publicly, but I think the members of this list are
very well able to make their own judgement about who is culpable in this
matter, and that you really do not need to make a public defence in
detail.

I apologize to you for the intemperate language you have encountered in
the INDOLOGY list, although as you know, the list is unmoderated and I
take no formal responsibility for the opinions expressed here.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  2 22:44:02 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 14:44:02 -0800
Subject: Information needed
Message-ID: <161227054179.23782.13500531826489910481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>A good number of works by Matilal on logic and epistemology in
>Indian though are listed at this URL:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/102-5840969-9440016
>

The URL as given won't work. Amazon.com detects your IP address and the kind
of browser you use, to add all those numbers at the end. The simplest
recourse is to go to www.amazon.com and type in "matilal" in its search
facility. Also, note that most of the titles are out of stock or marked as
"special order," which means that it will take a long time to get to you.
Interlibrary loan requests would provide access to the older titles and also
might work faster.

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From Kumara.Henadeerage at ANU.EDU.AU  Thu Dec  2 04:31:48 1999
From: Kumara.Henadeerage at ANU.EDU.AU (Deepthi Kumara Henadeerage)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 15:31:48 +1100
Subject: URL of the Indology homepage
In-Reply-To: <005201bf3c7b$d5cd2aa0$f324893e@default>
Message-ID: <161227054146.23782.12920427705512828458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can someone please tell me the URL of the Indology homepage?

Thanks.

Kumara
________________________________________________
Kumara.Henadeerage at anu.edu.au
http://www.anu.edu.au/linguistics/sinhala/
Linguistics - Australian National University
================================================




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Dec  2 15:44:56 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 15:44:56 +0000
Subject: e-text of Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance
Message-ID: <161227054161.23782.11190557462949376138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:09:38 +0100
From: Alex Passi <a.passi at alma.unibo.it>


[The] project to produce an electronic version of Bloomfield's Vedic
Concordance [is delivering its first phalaani]:

About 1/3 of the book is now on line at

        www.dslo.unibo.it/iniz.html

The format for the time being is Macintosh NisusWriter (which may be
downloaded for free at the Nisus site). I am quite delighted with my
student's work and hope that he will finish it before next summer.

All the best,

Alex




From jkcowart at CARI.NET  Thu Dec  2 23:45:20 1999
From: jkcowart at CARI.NET (J. Kingston Cowart)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 15:45:20 -0800
Subject: Information needed
Message-ID: <161227054181.23782.765520924599986001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 01:09 PM 12/02/1999 -0800, I wrote:
>-----------------------
>A good number of works by Matilal on logic and epistemology in
>Indian though are listed at this URL:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/102-5840969-9440016

I have discovered that this may not work.

Go to <www.amazon.com> click on "book search" and enter "Matilal,
Bimal" in the title window.  Several titles will be forthcoming.

Please forgive any inconvenience due to this confusion.

J. Kingston Cowart, M.S.
San Diego, California
<jkcowart at cari.net>




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Dec  2 15:55:59 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 15:55:59 +0000
Subject: Age of the Veda ...
In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD013F3B08@SMGMAIL>
Message-ID: <161227054164.23782.17014417641809349437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote:

> // PLease note the author of this article confuses 3200 years ago with 3200
> BC.
> //Iron at similar dates has been found at some other places in India also
>
> http://www.rediff.com/news/jan/23iron.htm
>
> Archeology find puts Iron Age back by 400 years

[...]


It is not the policy of the INDOLOGY list to publish reproductions of
articles.   Please do not do this.  Post the URL by all means, but not the
full text.

If you have yourself written an article, and you wish it to come to the
attention of the INDOLOGY readership, by all means contact me privately,
and we can negotiate the possibility of mounting your text on the INDOLOGY
website.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  3 00:46:12 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 16:46:12 -0800
Subject: Information needed
Message-ID: <161227054184.23782.11153183118047161999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Vidya and Kingston,

Thanks for your tip regarding searching for Maitlal's book on Amazon.
Actually there's another site I use to get rare books - especially on
Indology - it's www.bookfinder.com - set up by an Indian college student in
the US.

This site is linked to the databases of various bookshops - especially those
which sell rare and second hand books. But the books aren't cheap. I paid
$20 for a worn out, tattered copy of TRV Murti's Central Philosophy of
Buddhism! But again, Chandra Rajan's translation of KAlidhAsA's works just
cost me $4!

One good thing is that, in most cases you can get the book you want. So
happy book finding!

Rgds,
Nanda

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG  Fri Dec  3 01:39:47 1999
From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon (Kettenpom))
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 17:39:47 -0800
Subject: Was: Date of RV
Message-ID: <161227054186.23782.8325594050923829084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I, for one, find Mr. Ganesan's emails almost invariably among the most
interesting and perceptive on the list.  He's worth the price of admission
by himself , the "price" being the plethora of messages from all and sundry
one must take a look at.  Some people on this list are too arrogant and
intolerant of other people's interests.  Live and let live.

David

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Kekai Manansala <kekai at JPS.NET>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: Was: Date of RV


> >"N. Ganesan" wrote:
>
>
> Well, I know that Zybendos has been banned at least once from this
> list.  I've also been banned.
>
> But I don't think anyone has been banned as much as Mr. Ganesan. Given
> the nature of your own posts it does not surprise me that you not find
> anything wrong with those of Mr. Zybendos.
>
> Regards,
> Paul Kekai Manansala
>
>
> rivate, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> --
> Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/
>
>




From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE  Thu Dec  2 12:32:35 1999
From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 18:02:35 +0530
Subject: Was: Date of RV
In-Reply-To: <199912010548.LAA04638@blr.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227054151.23782.2169951965134863079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:27:55 PST, Vishal Agarwal wrote:

> I am appalled that Dr. R Z continues to post such pathetic messages.

Dear Mr Agarwal: Could you please elaborate on what is "pathetic"?
That I speak out against Dr. Elst's double standards / misquoting /
lies etc.? Do you have a problem with that?

> I would infact urge forum members to read his recent posts at the
> RISA-L forum in response to a Ms. Nair which shows the fanatical
> Christian attitude of Dr. RZ. (confirming doubts raised by others in
> this very forum)

I wouldn't at all mind if people go and have a look and see how hollow
your complaint is. You could have added, for the sake of fairness,
that Ms. Nair failed to answer my queries, merely posted more
lengthy propaganda and thereupon was reprimanded by half a dozen
list members (also with very Hindu names; see the thread "Enough is
enough").

"Fanatical Christian attitude"? Please substantiate. Show some
proof. Also please check your dictionary for the meaning of
"fanatical".

The FACT that I am not and have never been a Christian should
underline that you should think twice before going public with
reactions like the above. (You could have known this, since I
mentioned this fact on this list in a message to a Ms. Bose. Perhaps
your reading, like your indignation, is too selective?)

But I am concerned about determining the truthfulness of statements
and maintaining fairness in discussions (is this what you meant by
"pathetic"?) --also where Christians are concerned, and also though I
am not one myself. This is possible. Again, you can consult your
dictionary for the meaning of the word "fairness", since your next
statement indicates that you do not know it yet:

> My own personal assessment is that it was Dr. Zydenbos who UNFAIRLY
> brought Nazis into this dispute in the first place. So why blame Dr.
> Elst?

Unfortunately it seems necessary to repeat, in the face is your
misrepresentation: it was not Elst, but N.S. Rajaram; Elst attempted
to defend Rajaram, refused to answer pertinent questions, and has
still not bettered his ways, as I mentioned recently. If you are fair,
you will have a look at the evidence in the _Indian Express_ and on
the following website, which quite plainly shows how far off the mark
your "personal assessment" is:

http://www.angelfire.com/in/zydenbos/laermendepolemik.html

As for Elst and Hitler and Elst's review of Deshpande / Bronkhorst:
here too modern technology is helpful. Just go to Elst's website,
click to get his review, then search for "Hitler" (in Netscape you can
easily do this with CTRL-F), and behold. Is that fair enough?

Elst demonstrated his lack of substance last September, when he
failed to substantiate his attempted defence of Rajaram and attack
on me. I invite you, in fairness, to reply to the answers that Elst
refused to answer, rather than pontificate with a subjective "personal
assessment". (I am hereby assuming that your recent message,
from which I quoted above, was not just another juvenile shout-and-
run exercise, like the one on October 26. Please show us whether
we should take you seriously or put you in the same category with
Dr. Elst.)

RZ




From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE  Thu Dec  2 12:32:35 1999
From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 18:02:35 +0530
Subject: Was: Date of RV
In-Reply-To: <199912010625.LAA14504@blr.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227054153.23782.1681772340550542108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:09:46 -0800, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:

> Dr. Zybendos is a great boon to the those he attacks so zealously. He is
> a brilliant study in counterproductivity.

What makes you say that? Please share your criterion with us, so
that we can judge whether there is any verifiable truth in your
statement.

And if it really is too hard for you to even spell my name correctly,
you can always cut-and-paste it. Give it a try. It's not so difficult.

RZ




From OLES56 at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  3 04:48:21 1999
From: OLES56 at AOL.COM (Helen Oles Giunta)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 23:48:21 -0500
Subject: Information needed
Message-ID: <161227054191.23782.15050964735821943455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 12/2/99 7:47:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

<< www.bookfinder.com >>
Dear Nanda,
Thanks for that web address, I can assure you I will make good use of it. My
best outlet for used and rare books dealing with indiology is half way up in
the Rocky Mountains of Colorodo -- it will be much easier getting them this
way ( and hopefully my Rocky Mountain treasure trove will be included in the
addreses' dealers).
Helen O.

PS
Great to be on board at this lister service. I have been reading for sometime
now and just decied to begin contributing. (Also--Glad the AIT episode of a
few days ago was cleared up as well.)




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  3 12:34:35 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 04:34:35 -0800
Subject: Age of the Veda
Message-ID: <161227054195.23782.1838947689029172528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Also, Haksar's translation of Bhasa's plays (Penguin) tells in the front
>page that Bhasa lived like 2-1 cent. BC to 1 cent. AD.
>I recall  Prof. Steiner writing that Bhasa is no older than 6-7 centuries.

"Bhaasa has to be older than Kaalidaasa because the
latter mentions Bhaasa as a predecessor in his
Maalavikaagnimitra." according to an Indologist whom I contacted.
However, the so-called Bhasa's plays are possibly 7th century or even
later.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  3 15:48:09 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 07:48:09 -0800
Subject: Shourie
Message-ID: <161227054201.23782.10323481691181350923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for all those who answered my query. Can Shourie be 'man of the
Kuru country'? Ie., Shourie < kUri < kuru.

Substrates in OIA, EJVS, 1999
"kulUTa, kulUta (MBh.), kulUta-ka, (but also: kolUta, kaulUta,
kuluTa, and even ulUTa, ulUta, See Kuiper 1991:38 ..."

Compare skt. kolUTa with ta. ko_lu uTaiyAr (plough holder, farmer).
uTaiyAr is found in very early inscriptions to mean either land lord
or god. (cf. Mysore WoDeyAr kings).

DED 2147
ta. ko_lu = ploughshare, bar of metal
kannada. ku.lam, ku.lum, gu.lu, gu.la = id.,
tulu. koru = a bar of metal
DED 2148
Ta. ko_lutu = to peck, to drill through, to hollow out
DED 1505
ta. kALu= ploughshare
telugu kAru = ploughshare
Go. kareng= plough's point
Also, DED 688
ta. u_lu=to plough, dig up
ka. u.l = to plough

Does Kuru < dr. ko.lu (plough) and kuru = 'farm country'?
(Like DED 5097 ta. mE_li (plough) and kuwi mEri (plough)).

Regards,
N. Ganesan



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From kekai at JPS.NET  Fri Dec  3 16:43:52 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 08:43:52 -0800
Subject: Was: Date of RV
Message-ID: <161227054166.23782.2144687809620610637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Robert Zydenbos wrote:
>
> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:09:46 -0800, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>
> > Dr. Zybendos is a great boon to the those he attacks so zealously. He is
> > a brilliant study in counterproductivity.
>
> What makes you say that? Please share your criterion with us, so
> that we can judge whether there is any verifiable truth in your
> statement.
>
>

Obviously you're workin' too hard on something that ain't workin' if
you're want me to give references on obvious personal opinions.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Fri Dec  3 16:51:10 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 08:51:10 -0800
Subject: paladai
Message-ID: <161227054203.23782.16032257782276974913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- "Chouhan Electronic Informatics P Ltd." <chouhan at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN> wrote:
> Paladai is a tamil word meaning a feeding cup from very ancient days.
> "Pal" meaning milk, "adai" the vessel/cup.

Yes you are right.

pAlaTai
otl pAlaTai pAlaTai 01 conchshell or any metallic imitation of it for feeding
infants

Ta. pAL = milk; Ta. aTu (or = to give; Ta. aTai = feeding.

Actually it used to be called "cagkaTai" also in rural areas, the "cagku"
clearly being a reference to the conch shell originally employed for feeding
milk.

..> Dr. R.S.Chouhan
>


> At 12:25 PM 12/3/99 +0100, you wrote:
> >1. Can someone provide informations on the paladai? It should be a
> >traditional feeding cup for babies in India.
> >I am also looking for pictures.
> >2. Is there any known connection between feeding of babies and
> >lingam/yoni symbols?

While I do not know whether there are any such deliberate connections in the
tradition,
the feeder does look exactly like the base of the siva lingam.

But of course siva's consort pAravthi is frequently cited for her luxuriant
motherly breasts in post-cangkam bhakti literature; her epithets in many
ancient siva temple of tamil nadu also refer to that attribute.
Like "pOkam Artta pUN mulaiyAL"  for the female deity at the very ancient
thirunallARu temple.


Chandra

> >
> >Regards,
> >--
> >Martin Bemmann
> >Heidelberg Academy for the Humanities and Sciences
> >>Rock Carvings and Inscriptions along the Karakorum Highway<
> >Karlstr. 4  - D-69117 Heidelberg Germany

__________________________________________________
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Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com




From kekai at JPS.NET  Fri Dec  3 16:52:41 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 08:52:41 -0800
Subject: Was: Date of RV
Message-ID: <161227054168.23782.9890153194971121137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>"N. Ganesan" wrote:


Well, I know that Zybendos has been banned at least once from this
list.  I've also been banned.

But I don't think anyone has been banned as much as Mr. Ganesan. Given
the nature of your own posts it does not surprise me that you not find
anything wrong with those of Mr. Zybendos.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala


rivate, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From chouhan at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Dec  3 15:45:35 1999
From: chouhan at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Chouhan Electronic Informatics P Ltd.)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 10:45:35 -0500
Subject: paladai
In-Reply-To: <3847A8BC.78BD6FB8@urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <161227054198.23782.7935048913968449607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Paladai is a tamil word meaning a feeding cup from very ancient days.
"Pal" meaning milk, "adai" the vessel/cup.
In India, the bottle was never used until recent influxion of the western
culture.
The reason was very clear - Hygiene.
Science finally proved that the feeding bottle is unhygienic.
The paladai looks like an oyster shell wide mouth and a narrow pout at one
end to enable free flow without spillage. I wish I can draw a picture for you.
Throughout the southern languages there are names for this like UGGU-Ginni
in telugu, Thottu in Kannada etc.
Dr. R.S.Chouhan

At 12:25 PM 12/3/99 +0100, you wrote:
>1. Can someone provide informations on the paladai? It should be a
>traditional feeding cup for babies in India.
>I am also looking for pictures.
>2. Is there any known connection between feeding of babies and
>lingam/yoni symbols?
>
>Regards,
>--
>Martin Bemmann
>Heidelberg Academy for the Humanities and Sciences
>>Rock Carvings and Inscriptions along the Karakorum Highway<
>Karlstr. 4  - D-69117 Heidelberg Germany
>
>mailto:martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de
>http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~u71/kara/welcome.html
>
>




From martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Fri Dec  3 11:25:48 1999
From: martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Martin Bemmann)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 12:25:48 +0100
Subject: paladai
Message-ID: <161227054193.23782.346075892901216214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

1. Can someone provide informations on the paladai? It should be a
traditional feeding cup for babies in India.
I am also looking for pictures.
2. Is there any known connection between feeding of babies and
lingam/yoni symbols?

Regards,
--
Martin Bemmann
Heidelberg Academy for the Humanities and Sciences
>Rock Carvings and Inscriptions along the Karakorum Highway<
Karlstr. 4  - D-69117 Heidelberg Germany

mailto:martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de
http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~u71/kara/welcome.html




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Dec  3 20:34:00 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 15:34:00 -0500
Subject: Data of Bhoja
Message-ID: <161227054206.23782.11618535773593140931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The magisterial David Pingree, in Jyotihsastra: astral and
mathematical literature, Wiesbaden: Otto Harrasowitz, 1981 (Hist. of
Ind. Lit., v. vi, fasc. 4), assigns him to "the early eleventh
century." The "epoch" (astronomical starting point) of his Rajamrganka
is 12 Feb. 1042, at which date he must have been on the throne and
presumably adult to be writing or commissioning technical works.

Allen Thrasher




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Dec  3 20:58:49 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 15:58:49 -0500
Subject: Information needed (Epistemology)
Message-ID: <161227054208.23782.2220414039731067681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following may be useful:

LC Control Number:  sa 64001542
Sinha, Jadunath, 1894-
Indian psychology.
2d ed.
Calcutta, Sinha Pub. House, 1958-1986.
3 v.
v. 1. Cognition.--v. 2. Emotion and will--v. 3 Epistemology of
perception.
Notes:              Vol. 2: 1st ed.
                    Vol. 3: Reprint. Originally published: 1st ed.
Calcutta,
                      1969.
                    Includes bibliographical references.
Subjects:           Hinduism--Psychology.
                    Psychology--India--History.
                    Philosophical anthropology--History.
LC Classification:  BL1215.P8 S5 1958


LC Control Number:     38030376
Sinha, Jadunath, 1894-
Indian realism
London, K. Paul, Trench, Trubner & co., ltd. [1938]
xvi, 287 p.
"First published 1938."
Contains bibliographical references.
LC Classification:  B132.R4 S5

LC Control Number:       88902000
Prasad, Jwala, b. 1890.
History of Indian epistemology
3rd ed.
New Delhi : Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 1987.
xvi, 244 p.
ISBN:                    8121500729 :
Notes:                   First ed., 1939, as the author's thesis (D.
Phil.--Cambridge
                            University) under the title: Indian
epistemology.
                         Includes index.
                         Bibliography: p. [231]-239.
LC Classification:       B132.K6 P68 1987

All have a doxographical approach, that is, they discuss the
different positions as outlined in the literature more than giving
further thoughts of their own on the issues.  Sinha in particular is
encyclopedic, particularly in discussing thinkers and systems outside
the usual 6 darsanas and the non-Kevaladvaita Vedanta.

Allen Thrasher

Allen Thrasher




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Dec  3 21:48:56 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 16:48:56 -0500
Subject: Bhamaha-Kavyalamkara
Message-ID: <161227054211.23782.3447114306205873843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Ms. Heinrich,

I am sending you off the list (to save band space) the results of two
library searches, one off the Library of Congress public catalog and
the other off the online union catalogs OCLC and RLIN
(simulatenously).  Please contact me off the list for interpretation
or other help.

Allen Thrasher




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sat Dec  4 02:23:28 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 18:23:28 -0800
Subject: Was: Date of RV
Message-ID: <161227054188.23782.9461961809757120624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"David Salmon (Kettenpom)" wrote:
>
> I, for one, find Mr. Ganesan's emails almost invariably among the most
> interesting and perceptive on the list.  He's worth the price of admission
> by himself , the "price" being the plethora of messages from all and sundry
> one must take a look at.

Maybe you feel that way, but not everybody (including myself)
does.

Especially when it appears he was posting under more than one
email address (was that ever resolved?).

Either way I have no problems with him posting even at high volume.
I just don't agree with most of what's in his post.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
> > --
> > Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/
> >
> >

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec  4 13:05:11 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 99 05:05:11 -0800
Subject: Mon-Khmer word order
Message-ID: <161227054213.23782.4957784846574536315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

B. Comrie, etal., The Atlas of Languages, 1997, p.58,
"In India and Pakistan, the Indic languages have come into
contact with Dravidian languages, from which they acquired
features such as retroflex consonants and strict verb-final
word order. The Dravidian languages in turn have borrowed
Indic vocabulary."

Do the Munda languages also have a SOV word order?
What about their cousins: Do the Mon-Khmer languages also have
SOV word order? From the above reference, it appears
Mon-Khmer does *not* have "strict verb-final word order".

Thanks for references on Mon-Khmer word order,
N. Ganesan



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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec  4 22:11:18 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 99 14:11:18 -0800
Subject: Mon-Khmer word order
Message-ID: <161227054219.23782.3907399001681451245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Esteemed Indologists,

Do the Mon-Khmer languages possess SOV or non-SOV word order?

Regards,
N. Ganesan


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From John.Peterson at GERMANISTIK.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE  Sat Dec  4 14:40:00 1999
From: John.Peterson at GERMANISTIK.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (John Peterson)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 99 15:40:00 +0100
Subject: Mon-Khmer word order
In-Reply-To: <19991204130511.75662.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054215.23782.69688632686447887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As far as I know, the Munda languages are all relatively rigidly
verb-final, such as e.g. Santali. In the texts in this language which I
have so far analyzed, the verb is virtually always the last element of the
sentence (assuming for now that the 'verb' should be taken to mean that
sentence element carrying TAM-marking - cf. D.N.S. Bhat's book on
adjectives for more information on that topic).

Of course, as with most verb-final languages, the verb presumably CAN be
moved around in the sentence somewhat for pragmatic reasons.

To my knowledge (unfortunately, I don't have any books at hand to check
this), Khasi is a V2 (or verb-second) language. Can anyone out there
confirm this?

John

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
John Peterson
Cross-Linguistic Reference Grammar Project
Institut f?r Deutsche Philologie
Schellingstr. 3
D-80799 Munich
Germany     Email:  John.Peterson at germanistik.uni-muenchen.de




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  5 12:45:35 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 04:45:35 -0800
Subject: early substrate
Message-ID: <161227054224.23782.9871326410098157337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Substrate languages in Old Indo-Aryan,
EJVS, 5-1 (1999), p.1
"Since the Twenties, the area of the newly discovered Indus
civilization has been regarded, beginning with J. Bloch, as
having been populated by Dravidian speakers, while other early
20th century scholars such as S. Levy and J. Przyludski have
stressed the Austro-Asiatic (Munda) substrate of Northern India,
- both are positions that have been maintained until today
(e.g., Burrow, Emeneau, Parpola vs. Kuiper, Hock, *Southworth*)."

On conflicting view on F. Southworth's position, pl. see:
A. F. Sjoberg, The impact of Dravidian on Indo-Aryan: An overview,
inE. C. Polome, W. Winter, Reconstructing Languages and Cultures,
1992:Mouton de Gruyter, p.515
" Significantly, *Southworth* discounted the possibility of Munda
influences on Dravidian and on Indo-Aryan in the early period,
though Munda languages were important later (cf. Fairservis-
Southworth 1986)."

Regards,
N. Ganesan

Note: I used * within the quotes, (Not in the printed book).



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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  5 14:12:33 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 06:12:33 -0800
Subject: Munda kinship pattern
Message-ID: <161227054226.23782.4670988016142400658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Noted several references from puranas,etc., where South Indian
marriage systems prevailed in North India in ancient times.
The cross-cousin marriages in Krishna, Buddha, ... life stories.

Do the Munda tribes also follow Dravidian kinship terms, marriage
systems, ..? References please on Munda kinship, something like
T. Trautmann's Dravidian kinship. Need also kinship studies on
Mon-Khmer folks.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  5 14:54:00 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 06:54:00 -0800
Subject: Munda kinship pattern
Message-ID: <161227054229.23782.8643254073164491411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: "N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Munda kinship pattern
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 06:12:33 PST

NG: Noted several references from puranas,etc., where South Indian
marriage systems prevailed in North India in ancient times.
The cross-cousin marriages in Krishna, Buddha, ... life stories.

VA: They did not 'prevail' but were an exception. Manusmriti in general
advocates the rule of 'leaving the 6 pindas' but allows exceptions where the
groom is very well qualified. Such exceptions occur even today, a case
exists in my own family. (The wedding was however a hush up affair for the
fear of attracting social ostracism. Cause of the wedding was that the
bride's family was very poor and therefore the elders of the family decided
to offer one of her cousins as her husband). However, they are not as common
as in Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra (to some extent).

A Buddhist version of Ramayana makes Rama and Sita siblings, and that seems
to stem from the Sakya custom of permitting such 'incestuous' marraiges. The
Buddhist version of the nuptial was highlighted during the leftist campaign
(sponsored by the Union minister Arjun Singh) named "Hum Sab Ayodhya".
Vishal

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  5 15:18:06 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 07:18:06 -0800
Subject: Munda kinship pattern
Message-ID: <161227054232.23782.17791703074692522347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

NG: >Noted several references from puranas,etc., where South Indian
NG: >marriage systems prevailed in North India in ancient times.
NG: >The cross-cousin marriages in Krishna, Buddha, ... life stories.

VA: >They did not 'prevail' but were an exception. [...]

Dear Vishal,

My thought is cross-cousin weddings were important in the North
in ancient times - Otherwise, they would not have been noted
in the hagiographies of important personages like Krishna and Buddha.
Of course, the dharmashastras which are several centuries *late*
treat them as exceptions.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  5 17:34:11 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 09:34:11 -0800
Subject: Munda kinship pattern
Message-ID: <161227054250.23782.4991243166026950272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: "N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Munda kinship pattern
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 07:18:06 PST

NG: Of course, the dharmashastras which are several centuries *late*
treat them as exceptions.
VA: But the Baudhayana Dharmasutra mentions this as one of the 5 evil
customs **prevelant** in the SOUTH (and gives another list of 5 evil customs
prevelant in the North). So, as early as the period of this Dharmasutra, the
custom had distinct 'Dakshinapatha' associations.
Of course, as others have pointed out, there are regions in the Himalayas
and the Terai where Polyandry etc. still prevail (And I know that from
personal experience as well, although the custom is fading rapidy in
Garhwal).
There are similar strange/regional customs in other parts of India like the
'Satu-pitu' ("I marry your sister and you marry mine") of Gujarati Patels,
evolved out of circumstances peculiar to that region.

The only cases of cross-cousin and niece-Uncle marraiges from the Deccan I
know are all from Brahmin (and 1 Vaishya) families. Therefore, I would be
interested in knowing if such practices exist amongst other castes as well.

Those from the plains of N. India would agree with me that the permission
for *inter-cousin* marraiges amongst Muslims are one of the reasons why
Hindus of this area often 'look down upon' the Muslims.

Best wishes

Vishal Agarwal
15300- 37th Avenue N #A103
Plymouth, MN 55446
USA

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From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Dec  5 09:18:11 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 10:18:11 +0100
Subject: astronomy
In-Reply-To: <01bf3bde$e3038360$ce037bd4@deze-computer.pandora.be>
Message-ID: <161227054242.23782.5105303676356931184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Elst had asked me about  astronomical evidence in the Veda. Since I
started the point and as it is of general interest, a brief answer to all:

Astronomical evidence has intrigued people since the late  19th cent.
There is a paper  of c. 1880 about eclipses in the Bohemian (Czech) Academy
of Sciences which I read as as student. Fine, but the textual references
are just too vague (Svarbhaanu).

The recent ideas (S.Kak, etc.) can be dismissed with just one sentence:

        Texts cannot be dated according to their *oldest* materials, but
according to their
        general level, and as far as redaction is concerned, according to
their late(st)
        materials.

For example, the KRttikA (Pleiades) evidence from Shatapatha Brahm. ("They
do not move from the eastern direction") could point to the 3rd mill. BCE
--- but unfortunately the S'B is an IRON AGE text throughout, just about
pre-Buddhist.  Which puts its smack into the first half of the first mill.
BCE.

Items such as the KRttikA sentence are REMINISCENCES or school wisdom. You
cannot put me into the early 15th cent CE (or still earlier)  when I say:

"Looking at my digital watch, I noticed that the sun rose at 6:30". The
digital watch gives me away as a person of the late 20th c., not of the
14th, where one still could speak of the sun actually rising (and not of
the earth turning eastwards)... Kak etc. would have me as a medieval
person... strange, for natural scientists...

(The matter of KRttikAs not moving from the East actually is more
complicated as a look at any astronomical computer program will show).

MW.


At 10:31 +0100 12/1/99, Koenraad Elst wrote:
I'll be interested to hear  about your reasons why astronomical evidence
does "not apply".

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Dec  5 09:23:59 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 10:23:59 +0100
Subject: bones and flesh
In-Reply-To: <3835B45A.C491E18D@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227054239.23782.2292728414102547941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There have been a number of questions put in my direction, but I did not
have any time during the past month to answer in detail. The many points
made by Dr Ganesan, I have just answered to him privately (11k) .You can
ask him or me personally if you are interested in wheat, KarkoTa,  etc etc.


At 12:34 -0800 11/19/99, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:

>> Prof. Witzel, Substrates in OIA, 1999, p. 14
>> "Munda originally had no retroflexes".
>> On the same page, "In short, the people of the (northern)
>> Indus language must have spoken with retroflexes".

>Last I read, the idea that Munda did not originally have retroflexes
>is based on the fact that retroflexes are not universal in Munda, with
>one language given as an exception. This theory does not take
>linguistic drift into adequate account.

Well, one simply cannot *reconstruct* them for Proto-Munda, with the
exeption of retroflex D, -- which is a strange dissymetry in the consonant
system ( t : no d , no T but D...).  See Zide in  Current Trends in
Linguistics 1969 p. 414. -- Who and what is "drifting here"?  One cannot
use modern data and assume that they are the same as in 1500 BCE,  e.g.
Hindi/Nepali have retroflex r as in ghoRaa "horse" but Vedic did not  (e.g.
Late Vedic ghoTaka 'horse').   ---
(Mod.) description is one thing, reconstruction another.

>Also, the use of initial retroflexes in Munda and "Aryan" languages
>as opposed to the non-initial retroflex system in the south.

Modern IA and modern Munda. Not in Vedic.  Just a time difference of some
3500 years....
Check out the Latin of 150 BCE and modern Rumanian or French and behold...
Lat. camera = French chambre  [sha~br ]. No  sh- in Latin...



 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From rpclemen at INDIANA.EDU  Sun Dec  5 16:37:30 1999
From: rpclemen at INDIANA.EDU (Richa Pauranik Clements)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 11:37:30 -0500
Subject: Munda kinship pattern
In-Reply-To: <19991205151806.82680.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054234.23782.7820794832205370622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, N. Ganesan wrote:

> NG: >Noted several references from puranas,etc., where South Indian
> NG: >marriage systems prevailed in North India in ancient times.
> NG: >The cross-cousin marriages in Krishna, Buddha, ... life stories.
>
> VA: >They did not 'prevail' but were an exception. [...]
>
> Dear Vishal,
>
> My thought is cross-cousin weddings were important in the North
> in ancient times - Otherwise, they would not have been noted
> in the hagiographies of important personages like Krishna and Buddha.

The one purana that I've researched is the Bhagavatapurana, and it is full
of references to cross-cousin marriages in Book X (in the Krishna
lineage).  BUT it has been established that the BhP was composed in the
South, and the readers today who refer to such puranas to forward claims
that such social practices as cross-cousin marriages "prevailed" in the
North should beware of the place of origin of their sources.

Again, one should be clear about the type of social group that found this
practice acceptable.  In case of Krishna and Buddha, both belonged to the
kshatriya caste.  Is Mr. Ganeshan saying that the practice prevailed in
the North across all social groups?

Even today, cross-cousine marriages among Hindus in North India are  not
considered normal or desirable or acceptable, and  exceptions are made
only due to circumstances surrounding such a marriage.

Yours,
Richa Pauranik
Department of Religious Studies
Indiana University




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sun Dec  5 19:47:20 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 11:47:20 -0800
Subject: Mon-Khmer word order
Message-ID: <161227054217.23782.9879089977620301589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

John Peterson wrote:
>
> As far as I know, the Munda languages are all relatively rigidly
> verb-final, such as e.g. Santali. In the texts in this language which I
> have so far analyzed, the verb is virtually always the last element of the
> sentence (assuming for now that the 'verb' should be taken to mean that
> sentence element carrying TAM-marking - cf. D.N.S. Bhat's book on
> adjectives for more information on that topic).
>
>

Yes, Munda languages are SOV, and with the exception of Karen so is
Tibeto-Burmese.  This might indicate a wide areal influence although
it might be too simplistic to describe this simply as Dravidian.

Widely occuring specific retroflex consonants in "Aryan" and Munda
languages do not occur at all in either northern or southern Dravidian.
Also, some whole classes of retroflex types like initial retroflexion
and lexically contrastive retroflex plosives are universal in "Aryan"
and Munda but not found in Dravidian.

Furthermore a wide areal retroflex influence combined with other areal
influences spans an area covering South Asia, Southeast Asia and even
into the Pacific.

This suggests to me that these areal influences might come either from
a substratum language that has no surviving descendents, or that the
substratum language is a parent to some (or all) of the languages now in
the region.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Dec  5 10:52:18 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 11:52:18 +0100
Subject: Age of the Veda ...
In-Reply-To: <v04220804b46a8191845c@[212.250.67.104]>
Message-ID: <161227054245.23782.12623931512252225995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 7:51 +0000 12/1/99, L.S.Cousins wrote:
>Michael Witzel writes:
>
>>* it is a pre-iron age (copper/bronze) age text of the Greater Panjab
>>(incl. parts of Afghanistan).
>>This sets a date ante quem of c. 1200, the earliest iron in India.
>>
>>(iron is, not surprisingly, found in an old section of the linguistically
>>slightly later text, the Atharvaveda, both SS and PS)

The AV belongs to the  -linguistically  and culturally- 2nd level of Vedic
texts, along with Samaveda, Yajurveda Mantras. Iron occurs in hymns which
are found in the *core* section of the text, both in the S'aunaka and
Paippalada versions, and thus must be old, in other words "ur-AV".

>Can you clarify this a little for me ?
>
>Two points:
>
>1. I have not kept up with the literature on this, but you must be
>referring to relatively recent archaeological evidence, since the
>date for the first iron in India used to be quite a bit later than
>this. How extensive and how reliable is the archaeological evidence
>that confirms such an early date ?

Well, the age of iron has been creeping up. Already by 1980 one could get
calibrated dates around 1000/1100 BCE. The very good account by D. P.
Agrawal, The archaeology of India, London 1982 still has your conservative,
low dates.

G. Erdosy, in Allchin et al., The archaeology of Early Historic S. Asia,
Cambridge 1995, p. 79 sqq. has the minimally earlier "10th- 6th cent." for
the early Iron Age as he stresses  calibrated dates for the *middle*
Painted Gray Ware period in te Gangetic Basin (801, 793 BCE and regards one
of 1057 as anomalous). -- But what about the early PGW??

For example, Rafique Mughal, Ancient Cholistan, Lahore 1997, -- who
certainly has no interest nor involvement in "Aryan" theories -- has PGW in
the Pakistani Hakra valley (lower Sarasvati) at 1100/1000-600/500 BCE, and
PGW  at "an overall time bracket of 1155-400 BC, calibrated"... "it seems
that the PGW sites in Pakistan ... constitute a group of early PGW sites
dating to the end of the second or beginning of the first mill. BC..."

I have seen slightly earlier dates elsewhere:
e.g., Erdosy in Allchin 1995: p. 83-4 has dates at Ahar (S. Rajasthan)
calibr. 1255, 1240, 1221 BCE,  Hallur 993 BCE, and Eran (S. Gangetic rim,
Vindhya) of even 1420 BCE calib. --  Pirak (E. Baluchistn) has "anomalous
dates" 1255, 1240, 1221 BCE.


All of this has to be separated, of course, from the occasional use of
meteoric  iron which is much earlier, but does not establish an iron age...


>2. We know that cultures at different stages of technological
>development can exist side by side for quite long periods. How can
>you rule out the possibility of some iron-age technology existing at
>the same time as other large areas which don't use iron at all ?

Certainly.  PGW are sites still have some stone and many copper
implements: they are cheaper.
The interesting point here is that the Rgveda does not yet have iron at all
(only copper/bronze :ayas) , but the next level of texts has it (zyaama,
kRSNa ayas)... It seems now that this 2nd level is divided from the later
stages of the RV only by some 3-4 generations which brings down the later
parts of the RV somewhat. - not to speak of coexisting cultures of
different technological level in roughly the same area (e.g. plains ::
hills!, note even modern Orissa)

And D. K. Chakrabarti long ago (1973?, 1977 ) pointed out that iron emerges
first in the Vindhyas (note the Munda Asur smiths even today), and not from
the west (Caucasus, Iran). Cf. Erdosy in Allchin 1995 p. 83. Note, however,
Pirak.

Hope that helps. MW.





 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Dec  5 17:41:44 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 17:41:44 +0000
Subject: Job announcement
Message-ID: <161227054253.23782.14819821368589462342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

-- forwarded message:

Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:33:29 -0600
To: Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From: Hans Henrich Hock <hhhock at ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Job search at UIUC


The Department of Linguistics of the University of Illinois at
Urbana-Champaign is seeking to fill a full-time tenure-track position at
the rank of Assistant Professor in South Asian linguistics to begin August
21, 2000. Salary is commensurate with experience. Candidates should have a
strong commitment to teaching and research in South Asian linguistics with
a focus on Hindi. The successful candidate is expected to teach and
supervise Hindi language instruction, develop the curriculum, direct
dissertations on Hindi and other South Asian languages, and teach and
conduct research in other areas of the candidate's interest. Applicants
must have a Ph. D. in hand by August 21, 2000.

Full consideration will be given to those who submit the following
documents by February 1, 2000. Those candidates who plan to attend the
annual LSA meeting in January in Chicago may contact us to arrange for an
informal discussion about the position with a member of the search
committee at the meeting.

          Letter of application including a statement about research
interests and professional accomplishments.

          Curriculum vitae
          Three letters of recommendation
          Sample(s) of research

          Send application materials to:

          Prof. Chin W. Kim, Chair
          Search Committee in SA Linguistics
          Department of Linguistics
          University of Illinois
          707 S. Mathews Avenue
          Urbana, IL 61801

          For further information, please call or write:

          217-333-3563, 217-333-3466(Fax); cwkim at uiuc.edu

The University of Illinois is an Affirmative Action, Equal Opportunity
Employer


Hans Henrich Hock
Professor of Linguistics and Sanskrit
Linguistics, 4088 FLB MC-168, University of Illinois
707 S. Mathews, Urbana IL 61801-3652
telephone: (217) 333-0357 or 333-3563 (messages)
e-mail: hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu
fax: (217) 333-3466

Director
Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies
222 International Studies Building
910 S. Fifth Street
Champaign IL 61820
(217) 244-7331, fax (217) 333-6270
Visit our website at http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames




From rpclemen at INDIANA.EDU  Sun Dec  5 22:54:24 1999
From: rpclemen at INDIANA.EDU (Richa Pauranik Clements)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 17:54:24 -0500
Subject: Munda kinship pattern
In-Reply-To: <384BEB42.3D943F22@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227054255.23782.10923755281479252427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>
> I should note that in the area of southern Nepal where the Buddha lived
> cross cousin marriages are still the rule among many groups, some of
> them whom though are fairly recent immigrants from the north.

I would be interested in knowing what groups have cross cousin marriages
as a rule.  Are these particluar castes?

> Among most  of the indigenous Himalayan speakers, cross cousin marriages
> are routinely practiced.

Who are "indigenous Himalayan speakers"?  Is this a reference to tribal
communities?

Richa Pauranik
Indiana University




From sajeel at VSNL.COM  Sun Dec  5 12:32:48 1999
From: sajeel at VSNL.COM (Ravi Khanna)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 18:02:48 +0530
Subject: address of Aditya Prakashan publishers needed
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19991201164822.00950f9c@pop3.afn.org>
Message-ID: <161227054221.23782.11861048431755384425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To Chris,

Had recently obtained copy of S.Kak's - Astronomical Code of the Rig Veda
from :-
Aditya Prakashan F-14/65, Model Town II, Delhi 110009 : Phone-91-11-7420564
            or
Aditya Books H2/16, Ansari Road, Darya Ganj, Delhi 110002 :
Phone-91-11-3285677

Ravi Khanna

-----Original Message-----
From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Chris
Beetle
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 10:18 PM
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
Subject: address of Aditya Prakashan publishers needed


Anyone have the address of Aditya Prakashan publishers in New Delhi?

Thanks in advance.

Chris Beetle




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  6 02:19:06 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 18:19:06 -0800
Subject: Munda kinship pattern
Message-ID: <161227054260.23782.13495025301239217595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Maybe such instances of cross-cousin, uncle-niece marraiges have more to do
with circumstances.

In the Buddhist legends, where the Buddha himself takes pride that his
family preserved the purity of their race by resorting to incest - the
circumstance is that they had no other option. Being driven into exile, the
brothers and sisters were forced to commit incest. And the way the story is
told, there's hardly any doubt that this was an exception rather than an
accepted social custom.

I know of atleast one case in my family where an uncle married his niece,
the reason being that they didn't want their wealth to go out of the family!
This kind of marraige is pretty common amongst the Tamils.

With their migration into Southern lands, the brahmins not finding many of
their own lot in the vicinity might have well resorted to uncle-niece
marraiges, which was anyway an accepted custom in their environs.

The further split of the smartha fold due to the emergence of Vaishnavism,
might have added to this problem. Must have been a big problem for the
Vaishnavites, since their following was much smaller.

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  6 12:49:02 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 04:49:02 -0800
Subject: Mon-Khmer word order
Message-ID: <161227054264.23782.15082253114169907321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

NG>Do the Mon-Khmer languages possess SOV or non-SOV word order?

So far as I could gather, Mon-Khmer languages are *not* SOV order
and they are verb medial languages. The SOV pattern all over India is
a Dravidian inheritance, an important feature along with others
forming a good bundle which Masica used to support the theory for
the existence of a South Asian sprachbund.

A.F. Sjoberg, The impact of Dravidian on Indo-Aryan: An overview,
in E. C. Polome, W.Winter, Reconstructing languages and Cultures,
1992, p. 516
"Incidentally, Southworth (1979:208) feels that this is the best
explanation that can be offered for the dilemma stated by Masica
(1976:183-4) regarding the nearly complete absence of structural
features of Indian languages in Southeast Asia, an area subject to
prolonged cultural and linguistic influence from India."

Given that Mon-Khmer languages like Mon, Khmer, Vietnamese, Khmu,
Aslian etc., does not seem to have SOV word order, did the Munda
folks acquire the rigid verb final word order from the ancient North
Indian Dravidian majority?

Regards,
N. Ganesan


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From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Mon Dec  6 08:12:41 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 08:12:41 +0000
Subject: Age of the Veda ...
Message-ID: <161227054262.23782.17538177837946458126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:
> And D. K. Chakrabarti long ago (1973?, 1977 ) pointed out that iron emerges>
first in the Vindhyas (note the Munda Asur smiths even today), and not from>
the west (Caucasus, Iran). Cf. Erdosy in Allchin 1995 p. 83. Note, however,>
Pirak.

I want to raise another issue in a different cultural-language context. Is it
true that the Avestan word for 'god' is baga? If so, is this related to
Old Slavic bogu 'god' or to para-Munda word: bon:ga?

In Santali, bon:ga means: the sp;irits whom the Santals worship as a demon; to
sacrifice to a bon:ga; bon:ga also means a lunar month; bon:ga saranjam = the
materials of sacrifice and offerings.

How far west can the para-Munda be traced philologically?

Kalyanaraman

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From kekai at JPS.NET  Mon Dec  6 16:58:43 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 08:58:43 -0800
Subject: Munda kinship pattern
Message-ID: <161227054237.23782.15241680182791096596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Richa Pauranik wrote:

I should note that in the area of southern Nepal where the Buddha lived
cross cousin marriages are still the rule among many groups, some of
them whom though are fairly recent immigrants from the north. Among most
of the indigenous Himalayan speakers, cross cousin marriages are
routinely practiced.

It is also among these people that we still find the practice of
polyandry very similar to that found in the Mahabharata.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From kekai at JPS.NET  Mon Dec  6 17:24:48 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 09:24:48 -0800
Subject: bones and flesh
Message-ID: <161227054248.23782.11700663829260833669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel wrote:
>
> There have been a number of questions put in my direction, but I did not
> have any time during the past month to answer in detail. The many points
> made by Dr Ganesan, I have just answered to him privately (11k) .You can
> ask him or me personally if you are interested in wheat, KarkoTa,  etc etc.
>
> At 12:34 -0800 11/19/99, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>
> >> Prof. Witzel, Substrates in OIA, 1999, p. 14
> >> "Munda originally had no retroflexes".
> >> On the same page, "In short, the people of the (northern)
> >> Indus language must have spoken with retroflexes".
>
> >Last I read, the idea that Munda did not originally have retroflexes
> >is based on the fact that retroflexes are not universal in Munda, with
> >one language given as an exception. This theory does not take
> >linguistic drift into adequate account.
>
> Well, one simply cannot *reconstruct* them for Proto-Munda, with the
> exeption of retroflex D, -- which is a strange dissymetry in the consonant
> system ( t : no d , no T but D...).

That seems difficult to believe, but I'm not one for reconstruction
anyway.

Munda has retroflexion in its infix system which we know did not
come from "Aryan" or modern Dravidian. Of course, it come have come
from another extinct language, but this is doubtful since infixation is
found throughout Austro-Asiatic and even Austric.

Generally speaking, I would agree with SK Chatterji that people
tend to borrow words or languages but retain their own sound systems.
This was the reason the latter gave for retroflexion in "Aryan"
languages (Munda Dravidian people speaking foreign language).

If retroflexion was not native to Munda, then we either have to accept
that modern Munda speakers were originally non-Munda speakers who
borrowed  Munda languages, or that all Munda languages, but one,
borrowed extensive retroflex sounds into their own language. These
sounds would even have been incorporated into native infixes and
vocabulary.


> See Zide in  Current Trends in
> Linguistics 1969 p. 414. -- Who and what is "drifting here"?  One cannot
> use modern data and assume that they are the same as in 1500 BCE,  e.g.
> Hindi/Nepali have retroflex r as in ghoRaa "horse" but Vedic did not  (e.g.
> Late Vedic ghoTaka 'horse').   ---
> (Mod.) description is one thing, reconstruction another.
>
> >Also, the use of initial retroflexes in Munda and "Aryan" languages
> >as opposed to the non-initial retroflex system in the south.
>
> Modern IA and modern Munda. Not in Vedic.  Just a time difference of some
> 3500 years....
> Check out the Latin of 150 BCE and modern Rumanian or French and behold...
> Lat. camera = French chambre  [sha~br ]. No  sh- in Latin...
>

Well,  my point is the North-South division of retroflexion.
If we subscribe to the theory that Dravidian was "pushed" southward
by invading Indo-Aryans, when did they lose (or did northerners gain?)
initial retroflexion?

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

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From sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET  Mon Dec  6 14:34:46 1999
From: sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET (S Stephen)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 09:34:46 -0500
Subject: Munda kinship pattern
Message-ID: <161227054266.23782.16316940767278497601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> The only cases of cross-cousin and niece-Uncle marraiges from the Deccan I
> know are all from Brahmin (and 1 Vaishya) families. Therefore, I would be
> interested in knowing if such practices exist amongst other castes as
well.

This is a very common practice among nattukottai chettiars as well. I know
numerous such cases. I do not know of any community in Tamilnadu where the
cross-cousin marriage is prohibited.

Syrian Christians of Kerala prohibit marriage among relatives for 8
generations.

Sujata




From kekai at JPS.NET  Mon Dec  6 23:30:58 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 15:30:58 -0800
Subject: Munda kinship pattern
Message-ID: <161227054257.23782.2066570995042832591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Richa Pauranik Clements wrote:
>
> On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
> >
> > I should note that in the area of southern Nepal where the Buddha lived
> > cross cousin marriages are still the rule among many groups, some of
> > them whom though are fairly recent immigrants from the north.
>
> I would be interested in knowing what groups have cross cousin marriages
> as a rule.  Are these particluar castes?
>

Many of the so-called Kirati practice cross cousin marriage. I know
personally that this is the case among Magars and Gurungs.

I don't remember the situation among the Tharu. However, the Tharu like
so many other groups in Nepal practice the "asura" form of marriage
which involves a ritual kidnapping of the bride.

No of this occurs, that I know of, among Bahmans and Chetris. However,
even by their own tradition these are rather latecomers to Nepal.

> > Among most  of the indigenous Himalayan speakers, cross cousin marriages
> > are routinely practiced.
>
> Who are "indigenous Himalayan speakers"?  Is this a reference to tribal
> communities?
>

Actually, the Bhotiya are Tibetan speakers. There is, if I remember
right, a group of Himalayan speakers I believe in the Himachal region of
India who may still practice polyandry.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala


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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  7 04:33:21 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 20:33:21 -0800
Subject: Jnanasambandhar: Nanda Chandran's question
Message-ID: <161227054272.23782.12291423026259558358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nanda Chandran asked:
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:25:14 PST

"In South Indian history, there's an instance where the great Saivite
saint ThirujnAnasampandar is supposed to have converted a king from
Jainism to Saivism. Local tradition uses a word (which I don't
remember)which seems to indicate that many JainA monks were killed following
the conversion. Even KA Neelakanda ShAstri in his, "History of South India",
rejects the possiblity of something like that having actually happened and
suggests that the word must mean something else. " (End of quote)

VA replies:
Section 2.7 of the following URL contains some relevant information.
http://www.voi.org/books/negaind/ch2.htm
This still does not contain a direct answer to your question, which only a
Tamizh scholar can address.
Best wishes

Vishal

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From mirek at MS19.HINET.NET  Mon Dec  6 16:01:26 1999
From: mirek at MS19.HINET.NET (Miroslav Rozehnal)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 00:01:26 +0800
Subject: Age of the Veda ...
In-Reply-To: <19991206024241.29388.qmail@ww185.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <161227054269.23782.1961917387641730487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 08:12 AM 1999/12/6 +0530, S.Kalyanaraman wrote
>I want to raise another issue in a different cultural-language context. Is it
>true that the Avestan word for 'god' is baga? If so, is this related to
>Old Slavic bogu 'god' or to para-Munda word: bon:ga?

According to Monier-Williams (see under 'bhaga'), Avestan 'baga' and Old
Slavic 'bogu' are both related to the Sanskrit 'bhaga'.

Miroslav Rozehnal




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  7 18:25:41 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 10:25:41 -0800
Subject: Jnanasambandar: Nanda Chandran's question
Message-ID: <161227054282.23782.9075106947400426069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>he claims that Sasanka was an astik smartha and not a nastika Shaiva.
>Indeed it appears from the URL that the Shaivas were more tolerant than the
>Buddhists or Jainas, who were in turn more tolerant than Vaishnavas and
>Vaidiks.

All this is just purely political. When Vaishnavism openly defines itself as
Ubahya VedAnta and Shankara who was an orthodox brahmin is generally
regarded as a Shaivite and JnAnasampandhar was a brahmin, how can such
claims be justified?

In todays India, if you're anti brahmin and can also prove that your
people were "persecuted" by brahmins, you can enjoy the benefits of
the reservation system etc So to that extent everybody is eager to
prove that they were "persecuted" by brahmins. In such a claim they
also seek support of other groups, who also for the same reason claim
priveleges.

So in the quoted sentences the equation is that,

Vaishnavas and Vaidiks = brahmins

Buddhist and Jainas = brahmins + upper castes + few lower castes

Shaivas = Saiva SiddAntists (who have a strong non-brahmin following
                             in Tamil Nadu, many of whom enjoy the
                             privelege of the "backward" or "other
                             backward" caste status and also are a
                             powerful political force.)

So if you're a Dalit, how would you present your case? You raise a
big cry about brahmanic oppression and side with the BCs and OBCs to
derive political and economic mileage.

But what the Dalits don't realize or probably do - but don't
want to acknowledge it at present, is that the brahmins only have a
religious bias against them. They simply do not care what the Dalits
do in terms of profession or economic prosperity etc But that's what
the BCs and OBCs are interested in and in the long term this will
bring both sections in direct confrontation with each other. It's
already happening - with the clashes between the Dalits and upper
caste Tamils on the increase. And it is not that the BCs and OBCs are
egalitarian either. Their casteism and discrimination against the Dalits is
even worser than the brahmins and would be even more acutely felt by the
Dalits since it will be in the economic and social sphere.

The so called persecution by the brahmins is itself a Marxist innovation,
which gives them a reason to exist in India. For in reality, brahmanic
oppression was never economic, with the brahmins themselves having renounced
wealth voluntarily.

And the Muslim interest in this whole affair is that they don't want the
Hindus to come together and turn on them for all their past atrocities. So
it is in their interest that the Hindus - upper and lower castes - are kept
busy, fighting each other.

A few months back somebody replying to a post by Vishal which was
deliberately misinterpreted as a physical threat, said they didn't think
that something as harmless as Indological studies can be so dangerous - well
for foreign professors sitting in foreign lands it sure isn't - but in India
the so called "Aryan invasion" has a devastating effect - which has resulted
in social discord and cultural decay - for it is perceived that everything
"Aryan" is wrong. And while the professor in a foreign university speculates
about the Aryanization of India with a glass of scotch, he doesn't realize
or maybe doesn't even care, that his speculations cause economically poor,
harmless "Aryan" brahmins to be abused - physically, socially and
economically.

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  7 19:04:15 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 11:04:15 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054286.23782.14619037438940109617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sari is a prominent cultural symbol of India and, it derives
from zATI/ZATikA. sArI < zATI, much like Dharwar < Dharwad where wAD
(skt. vATika < ta. pATi).

Marathi has chATI; Panini: zATI-paTTika, zATI-paTIra,
zAtI-pracchada; Katyayana: zATaka; Patanjali: zATakaM;
Dhammapatha: ajina-sATI (v.394); Pali: sATa, sATikA, sATiya;
Jain: sADa, sADiA; Prakrit: sADi... (Indology archives).
The variations, z/s/ch and T/D suggest this word is
a borrowal.

Prof. K.S. Arjunwadkar wrote earlier:
>Paanini's list of roots does note a root 'shaT' (I P.) meaning 'to be sick,
>to divide, separate, to be dissolved, to be weary or dejected,
>to go' and a root 'shaT' (X A.) meaning 'to praise, flatter' (Apte's
>Dictionary). As in the case of many words, it is difficult to relate
>the root-meaning to the meaning of the derivative in use.

Pl. look at tamil words:
1)kATikam = sAri 2) kATakam = sAri
(p. 425, N, KathiraiverpiLLai's Tamil-Tamil dictionary,
6th reprint, Delhi:AES, 1990). Also, in OTL.
kATikam/kATakam(=sAri) could be found in old Tamil literature.

Online Tamil Lexicon(OTL) entry:
-------------------------------------------------------------

kaTTu-tal

OTL kaTTu-tal 01 1. to tie, bind, fasten, shackle; 2. to build,
construct, fix, erect; 3. to establish, as a theory; 4. to hug,
embrace; 5. to support, sustain; 6. to tie on, adorn with; 7. to wear,
to be  dressed in; to put on, as clothes; 8. to remit, pay up; 9. to
acquire; 10. to fabricate, contrive, invent; 11. to harden, condense,
consolidate; 12. to store, gather together; 13. to bind by spells,
magic; 14. to suborn; 15. to compose, as verse; 16. to marry; 17. to
win, checkmate, overcome; 18. to fill, as a tank with water; 19. to
shut up, close up; 20. to export; 1. to harden, consolidate, form, as
concretions; to  congeal, coagulate; 2. to be congested, as the throat
in acute pharyngitis; 3. to swell, as a boil, a tumour or an
imposthume; 4. to be a bad omen, to portend misfortune; 5. to
overspread, as clouds; 6. to be  worth while, just paying; 7. to
compare with, to be equal
---------------------------------------------------------------

A noun kATi(=sAri/dress to wear) is formed from the above tamil verb,
"kaTTu" which is attested in all Dravidian and in CT.
Many verb_to_noun pairs are formed in a like manner:
viTu(to leave) > vITu (home, mukti), mUTu(to close) > mUTi(cover),
nITTu(to extend, to prolong) > nITu (for a prolonged period of time)
etc., In a similar manner, ta. kaTTu(to tie as adornment) > ta. kATi
(=sAri).

>?From 1) ta. paTu (to lay down) > skt. paTTa/paTTika and
2) dr. tamizh > dAmili/dramiDi/dramiDaka, ... and also, k -> s/z
is attested in Sanskrit and Tamil many a time (eg., karkoTa/zarkoTa,
ta. kaTTam(square)/caTTam(rectangular window frame, law < (verb)
kaTTu).

Hence, is drav. kATi > skt. zATI/zATa(ka)/sADI/chATI possible?
If so, the kATi(dr.)/zATI(skt) is probably what is seen on the
shoulders of the so called 'priest' of IVC and latter on the Buddha.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




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From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  7 19:13:59 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 11:13:59 -0800
Subject: Jnanasambandar: Nanda Chandran's question
Message-ID: <161227054289.23782.13175257691361078152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Nanda Chandran seems to blame the whole caste mess on everybody in >India
>with the exception of the brahmins themselves.

Not so. I acknowledge that they too have a role in it and have also accepted
it in my previous post, but it is not the way it is popularly presented.

While Ambedhkar and other dalit activists conviniently point out all the
discriminatory clauses in the Manusmriti against the lower castes and the
women, they never reveal that the same text is extremely strict with the
brahmin too. Instead of letting the brahmin enjoy his 'explotation', it
condemns him to a life of poverty and strife. How can that be? It is because
that the Vedic ideals were on totally different plane, than our modern
secular ones.

The brahmins discriminated - but it was a religious discrimination, where
they claimed exclusive rights to teaching the Veda and performing
sacrifices. They also asserted their superiority over the other castes - not
on economic or political grounds - but on religious purity, ethics and
knowledge.

Ofcourse, this sometimes had economic implications - as some brahmins
themselves were rich and conviniently used the caste system to further their
ambitions. But to put a blanket blame on such grounds against the whole
Vedic culture, is obviously flawed and has no historical or textual support.

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From Eric.Robert at UM.BE  Tue Dec  7 11:02:33 1999
From: Eric.Robert at UM.BE (Robert, Eric)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 12:02:33 +0100
Subject: saraswati civilisation
Message-ID: <161227054276.23782.9296643714448114604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi all! I am new to this list, and only an amateur in Indology, so please
forgive my (maybe?) silly questions.

I' ve seen recently accounts about the dicovery of the old course of the
Saraswati river, and that it was indeed a mighty river, as presented in the
Rg-veda.
Also, many sites corresponding to the Mohenjodaro and Harappean cultures
were found, moving the center of this culture south-east. Is there any
recent datation of these sites, and also for the drying up of the Saraswati?
In advance thank you

Eric Robert




From mchari at BCM.TMC.EDU  Tue Dec  7 18:09:30 1999
From: mchari at BCM.TMC.EDU (Mohan Vedantha Chari)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 12:09:30 -0600
Subject: saraswati civilisation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.10.9912071557020.177-100000@c0459.wellcome.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227054280.23782.4943651176097499569.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Perhaps the onomatopeic reaction could have been sent directly to Mr.
Robert Eric - a newcomer at that - to his personal address. Less dignified
to send it openly - even by the founder ! Regards. Mohan V. Chari, PhD.

On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Robert, Eric wrote:
>
> > Hi all! I am new to this list, and only an amateur in Indology, so
> > please ...
>
>
> Aaaargh!
>
>
> --
> Dominik Wujastyk
> Founder, INDOLOGY list
>




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  7 21:43:31 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 13:43:31 -0800
Subject: Jnanasambandar: Nanda Chandran's question
Message-ID: <161227054300.23782.3996435267389275126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>My problem with your arguments is that they seemed to refer mainly to
>the ancient situation.

>Over the last few centuries it would be very hard indeed to portray
>brahmins as bowl or skull carrying beggars.

>In the last century they have been among the most privileged economic
>groups and by far the most privileged in terms of political power and
>education.

Well Paul, you've jumped from "ancient" to the "last few centuries"
to "current century".

Apart from the current century, where the economic and social conditions of
Bharath has undergone tremendous change, there's no reason to suppose that
Brahmins enjoyed economic prosperity prior to that. Every historical and
religious evidence, indicates that they largely existed preserving the
dharmam and subsisting on the grants of the society.

>Whatever was the case in "Vedic" society, the situation today is a
>result of caste rules seemingly formulated by brahmins, and in which
>brahmins today appear the greatest benefactors.

And why is that? For today, economic prosperity is largely dependant
on knowledge - for that is what secures for one a job to make a living.
Unlike the majority of the people in the world who largely lusted for
material prosperity or political power, the brahmins
highest ideal for millenea has been "jnAnam" or knowledge. So they
have taken to to the current employment scenario whose only requisite
is knowledge, like fish to water. They excel in academics and with
their integrity, often rise to envied positions.

Isn't that the reason for the so called "anti Tamil" movements in
Maharashtra and Karnataka. When Tamil brahmins were excluded from
job opportunities in Tamil Nadu, most went to Bombay or Bangalore
looking for job opportunities and did exceedingly well - which lead
to local resentment and protest. Infact one Maharashtrian, a
supporter of the Shiv Sena, told me that "Madrasis" would get
excellent academic scores since the examinations held by the
University of Madras were rigged!

Since the current employment scenario demands education and knowledge,
the non-brahmins unable to compete with the brahmins raise the
protest that it was because the brahmins prevented them from studying
that they are at a disadvantage now.

But again the question is what kind of knowledge did the brahmin prevent
others from acquiring?

It's not as if the colleges of today existed in Bharath and the brahmin
stood at the entrace and prevented others from entering!

Most of what passed for knowledge in Bharath, before the last two
centuries was only religious knowledge. Knowledge as a means
towards employment was almost nil - only some ministers and
administrators of the state were required to be educated on artha and
dharma shAstrams. Economic prosperity in fields than those which
demanded knowledge was greater - like agriculture, rearing cattle,
trade etc So why would anybody even want knowledge? Even today
if education wasn't a means to obtaining a job, how many people
would study?

In Bharath knowledge existed for itself and not as a means to an end
ie employment, as it is today. The brahmins and the nAstika monks
developed knowledge of a totally different kind. And there's no
indication that the other sections of the soceity didn't participate
in this process - you have the Tamil grammarians, poets who developed
the Tamil literature - Kamban and Valmiki who wrote the Ramayanam etc
So if people were that interested in knowledge, they could have done
something about it. But since it had no economic potential, only the
few who were truly interested in it for its own sake, developed it.

It is with the industrial revolution and its effects in India, fueled by
McCaulay's plan to make India a nation of clerks, which brought in
modern education as we know it today, into India. The English to kill the
Vedic culture, took over the devasthAnams which funded the brahmins to
pursue Vedic studies and stopped such funding. Following this the brahmins
for the sake of existance sought employment in other fields and were often
succesful in them due to their integrity, hard work and knowledge. Due to
the current poverty of Bharath, other sections of the soceity too seeking
employment have found brahmins to be their main competition which has given
rise to animosity.

So if the lower castes are at a disadvantage today, who's to blame?
The brahmins? I think not!

Ofcourse, the biggest casuality of this whole affair is that the brahmin has
abandoned his dharma - as a result Bharath itself is slowing losing its
civilizational vitality and embracing unbridled hedonism, which but signals
the decay of the culture. This is but natural for human instinct tends to
incline towards its material ends. But in the olden days, the brahmin stood
as a symbol to assert the superiority of the spirit over matter. Today the
brahmin too has adopted the way of the world. As Manu aptly predicted,
without the society the brahmin cannot exist and vice versa.


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From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Tue Dec  7 20:00:06 1999
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 15:00:06 -0500
Subject: Jnanasambandar: Nanda Chandran's question
Message-ID: <161227054296.23782.16190405060396268782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There are hardly any cases of brahmins exploiting dalits in mordern India.
A large proportion of brahmins belong to an educated middle class and this
rather than exploitation is the prime reason for whatever benifits they
enjoy.

Brahmins did make life hard for the untouchables by making discriminatory
rules but by this they did not gain great benifits for themselves. Anyway
this is history and is definitely not a mordern phenomenon.

In bihar land owners have traditionally exploited the dalits and continue to
do so. One hears very few or almost no stories in the press where brahmins
as a group exploit other groups.

In mordern India dalits have had a late start as far as education is
concerned and also have traditionally been poor. Brahmins in comparision
have had a head start.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Dec  7 15:57:24 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 15:57:24 +0000
Subject: saraswati civilisation
In-Reply-To: <390AC379FFD2D21193130008C70D353876B7E9@irene.um.be>
Message-ID: <161227054278.23782.3015232518519117862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Robert, Eric wrote:

> Hi all! I am new to this list, and only an amateur in Indology, so
> please ...


Aaaargh!


--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Tue Dec  7 10:39:13 1999
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 16:09:13 +0530
Subject: Jnanasambandhar: Nanda Chandran's question
In-Reply-To: <19991207043321.6055.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054274.23782.8315409692761017643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Vishal Agarwal wrote:
> [ re. Jain persecutions at the hands of Shaivas ]
> " Section 2.7 of the following URL contains some relevant information.
> http://www.voi.org/books/negaind/ch2.htm "

 This work re. the massacre of 8000 Jainas states: "[King] Arikesari
Parankusa Maravarman, is also described as having first persecuted Shaivas
... he [ the Shaiva saint ] had escaped Jaina attempts to kill him. Unlike
the Muslim persecutions, this Shaiva-Jaina conflict was clearly not a
one-way affair."

 In other words, the author does not contest that 8000 Jainas were
killed, but claims that this was in reaction to persecution of Shaivas by
Jainas. Another URL which might be helpful is Hadwa Dom's book :

http://dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/mohr/mohr4.html

though this seems to be a pro-Shaiva work - he claims Sasanka was an
astik Smarta and not a nastik Shaiva. Indeed, it appears from the URL that
the Shaivas were more tolerant than Buddhists or Jainas, who were in
turn more tolerant than Vaishnavites and Vaidiks. Does anyone have any
data to back that assertion up ?

Samar




From sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET  Tue Dec  7 22:07:30 1999
From: sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET (S Stephen)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 17:07:30 -0500
Subject: Jnanasambandar: Nanda Chandran's question
Message-ID: <161227054302.23782.8697846861688141838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Brahmin Bashing seems to be a popular hobby these days, at least on the
forums on the Internet.

From: Paul Kekai Manansala <kekai at JPS.NET>
Brahmins in comparision
> have had a head start.
>
> And are traditionally wealthier than most other castes.

One only has to look around to see how untrue this statement is.

> this exploitation.  In fact, they benefit indirectly from this
> exploitation by their position in the modoern caste hierarchy, which
> they were instrumental in formulating.

How untrue again! In fact Brahmins today face insurmountable hurdles to get
admission in professional colleges, jobs, promotions, etc. The caste based
reservation system that exists in India is a vote getting process that puts
the Brahmins and other forward classes at an unfair disadvantage and will
eventually be disadvantageous to the country as a whole.

I thought this list was about ancient India. Am I mistaken??


Sujata




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Tue Dec  7 22:30:38 1999
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 17:30:38 -0500
Subject: Jnanasambandar: Nanda Chandran's question
Message-ID: <161227054305.23782.1754475805915709573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I kind of agree, but the statement that brahmins exploited less privileged
sections of society is misleading. Brahmins cannot be accused of direct
exploitation genocide, enslavement and stealing wealth.

They were responsible for instituting cruel and unfair traditions. How much
mileage they gained from this is arguable. They must already be in a
position of authority in order to have instituted such traditions.

I have seen a dalit student from a remote village who topped his class and
entrance exams. Respect for learning in Indian society is a brahmanical
trait and makes us quite unique compared to other developing countries.
There is much that India has to be thankful to brahmins for also.




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  8 02:41:09 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 18:41:09 -0800
Subject: saraswati civilisation
Message-ID: <161227054313.23782.10573941428060965057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: George Thompson <GthomGt at CS.COM>
Subject: Re: saraswati civilisation
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:14:54 EST



GT: As a matter of fact, the Vedic Sarasvati resided neither in Afghanistan
nor
in India but in heaven, and Vedic Sarasvati is a goddess. No satellite has
been invented which can tell us where such goddesses live.
VA: I would like to know what Dr. H H Hock and Dr M Witzel would like to say
on this matter since some of their publications do link Sarasvati to
specific river(s). And, Dr. M Witzel has been very forceful in stating that
no firm date is available for the drying up of Sarasvati (contradicting a
statement in Dr. Hock's article in D and B, 1999)from Satellite Imagery. So
it will be interesting to know their views here.

GT: As for the Vedic word, *sa'rasvatI*, it is identical with the Avestan
word
*harahvaiti* and the Old Persian word *harahuvati*
VA: And do the rule of linguistics warrant a transformation from Sarasvati
to Harahuvati or vice versa? I ask because Dr. Hock quotes a  journal
article by Dr. Erdosy on Sarasvati (Journal of South Asian Studies No. 5 if
I remember correctly) and when I looked at that article, Dr. Erdosy seems to
confess that although the change should be from S-->H, in this case it
implies that the IE speakers first settled down on the banks of Sarasvati in
N W India and then some of them must have gone over to Afghanistan giving
the name Harahuvati to a local river there!

What a pity that entire tribes of people are lifted and placed left and
right to satisfy some linguistic theories.

Vishal

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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  8 03:03:29 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 19:03:29 -0800
Subject: Astronomy
Message-ID: <161227054315.23782.12141603250168737432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

MW wrote: Texts cannot be dated according to their *oldest* materials, but
according to their general level, and as far as redaction is concerned,
according to their late(st) materials. For example, the KRttikA (Pleiades)
evidence from Shatapatha Brahm. ("They
do not move from the eastern direction") could point to the 3rd mill. BCE
--- but unfortunately the S'B is an IRON AGE text throughout, just about
pre-Buddhist.  Which puts its smack into the first half of the first mill.
BCE.
VA: 'Just about pre-Buddhist'--> Please give a date for the text (centuries)
and let us know which of your principles you have adopted for this date
(date of redaction, general level etc.). Where is Krishna Ayas/Syama Ayas
mentioned in the text? Throughout? Is it mentioned in connection with some
important applications or just by the way, with other metals? Does 'Iron'
play an important role in this 'Iron Age' text? Do the passages of Shatapath
Brahman mentioning Syama Ayasa belong to the 'general level' or the 'date of
redaction' or the 'core' or the 'later interpolation'? If the antiquity of
Bhagvan Buddha is reduced by 1-2 centuries, as stated by Dr. Ganesan, how
will it affect the date of this 'just pre-Buddhist' text? If the BU is one
of the oldest Upanishad, then the 'late Upanishads' all post date this 'just
pre-Buddhist' text? Is the only reason to place an Iron Age text after 1200
B.C.E. the non-discovery of Iron before that date? (An argument of silence).
If in future Iron is indeed found before that date, then will the date of
Sat Br. be affected? If yes, then what is the use of linguistic theories in
dating texts? Considering that chemically, Iron is one of the highest metals
in the reactivity series (After K, NA, Mg, Al, Zn--> Zn passivates on
oxidation) and the fact that Fe2O3 is porous and its hydroxide is
gelatinous, how sure are we that iron artifacts can indeed survive several
millenia in a humid environment where the water table is very high?
_____________

MW: Items such as the KRttikA sentence are REMINISCENCES or school wisdom.
You cannot put me into the early 15th cent CE (or still earlier)  when I
say: "Looking at my digital watch, I noticed that the sun rose at 6:30". The
digital watch gives me away as a person of the late 20th c., not of the
14th, where one still could speak of the sun actually rising (and not of the
earth turning eastwards)... Kak etc. would have me as a medieval person...
strange, for natural scientists...
VA: Well, that certainly reminds me of the argument of the Eminent Historian
Dr. Romila Thapar (who, according to you has made an uncritical use of
Pauranic data) who says "The position of constellations might have been
remembered and passed on from generation to generation. Therefore,
astronomical data in the RV does not constitute a proof of their antiquity."
Well, I am sure that IE speakers had more important things to pass on over
centuries (ballads on military victories, 'vague memories of a distant
homeland', stories of migrations.... ) than some obscure astronomical data.

MW: (The matter of KRttikAs not moving from the East actually is more
complicated as a look at any astronomical computer program will show).
VA: Which computer program? Please email me a file or snail mail me your
charts and calculations. Mention what special software applications are
required.Explain each and every such passage in Sanskrit literature.

Otherwise, this is just another 'haughty dismissal'!

Best wishes

Vishal


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From cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM  Wed Dec  8 02:08:22 1999
From: cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 20:08:22 -0600
Subject: contact Dr. Radhakrishna Sarma
Message-ID: <161227054312.23782.1733122824724711617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

    Does anyone have contact information (email, fax or telephone number) of
Dr. M. Radhakrishna Sarma, professor and head of the Department of Ancient
Indian History, Culture and Archaeology, Osmania University?  I am not sure if
Dr. Sarma is still head of the department at Osmania U.  Contact information to
this post would also be appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
B. Fleming




From GthomGt at CS.COM  Wed Dec  8 01:14:54 1999
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 20:14:54 -0500
Subject: saraswati civilisation
Message-ID: <161227054307.23782.18071777393413790093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Koenrad Elst appears to be more familiar with satellite photography than with
Vedic, so it does not surprise me when he says:

> I find it a bit odd that those Vedic poets described Indian flora, fauna,
rivers, mountains, tribes, in a language brimful of loanwords from Indian
languages, yet lived along a non-Indian river.

As a matter of fact, the Vedic Sarasvati resided neither in Afghanistan nor
in India but in heaven, and Vedic Sarasvati is a goddess. No satellite has
been invented which can tell us where such goddesses live.

As for the Vedic word, *sa'rasvatI*, it is identical with the Avestan word
*harahvaiti* and the Old Persian word *harahuvati* -- all of which are
adjectives meaning something like  "rich in ponds", and which are liable to
be applied to ANY earthly river whatsoever with the appropriate features.
There never was ONE *sa'rasvatI* on this earth, but rather a number of local
avatAras.

I am prepared to defend my view by citing sUkta and mantra from the RV. If
Koenrad Elst is not prepared to do the same, perhaps he should stick to
satellite photography, and not express surprise with regard to what the RV
RSis say. Where in the RV is it said that the Sarasvati nourishes large
cities such as those of the Indus Valley Civilization?  Exactly what loan
words from Indian languages do you find in the RV?

Let us not wait for science to come to us. Let us do science ourselves. That
is what this is list is supposed to be for, and it seems to me that that is
why the list owner has allowed himself to express his dismay once again at
those who choose to ignore the explicit aims of the list

Best wishes,

George Thompson.

In a message dated 12/7/99 2:48:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE writes:

> Dear Mr. Eric Robert,
>
>  Given the prohibition on discussing the Vedic-Harappan nexus on this list,
>  I'll take the risk of informing you
>  that your question about the Harappan cities along the the Vedic river
>  Saraswati threatens to violate this prohibition.  But as long as we
>  don't mention either "Aryan" or "invasion" (I hope "theory" is still OK), I
>  guess we can get away with the following.
>
>  Satellite photography has allowed the tracing of the course of the
>  once-mighty Saraswati.  Along its course, cities of Harappan culture and
age
>  have been found, in some places also post-Harappan settlements on the
former
>  river bed.  It is by no means far-fetched to infer a causal relation
between
>  the decline of the Harappan civilization and changes in the water-system
>  including the drying of the Saraswati.  I've seen very slightly conflicting
>  estimates for the drying between 2100 and 1500 BC, at any rate roughly
>  synchronous with the end of the Harappan high culture.  Let's count on
>  Science to provide more details in the near future.
>
>  In reading around about this topic, you may well come across the theory
>  recently publicized by astrophysicist Dr. Rajesh Kochar, that the Vedic
>  Saraswati was really in Afghanistan, being the Harahvaiti/Helmand river
>  (where no such cities
>  have been found).  I find it a bit odd that those Vedic poets described
>  Indian flora,
>  fauna, rivers, mountains, tribes, in a language brimful of loanwords from
>  Indian languages, yet lived along a non-Indian river.
>
>  Yours sincerely,
>  Koenraad Elst
>  http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/




From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE  Tue Dec  7 19:39:21 1999
From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 20:39:21 +0100
Subject: saraswati civilisation
Message-ID: <161227054293.23782.204237909695436299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Eric Robert,

Given the prohibition on discussing the Vedic-Harappan nexus on this list,
I'll take the risk of informing you
that your question about the Harappan cities along the the Vedic river
Saraswati threatens to violate this prohibition.  But as long as we
don't mention either "Aryan" or "invasion" (I hope "theory" is still OK), I
guess we can get away with the following.

Satellite photography has allowed the tracing of the course of the
once-mighty Saraswati.  Along its course, cities of Harappan culture and age
have been found, in some places also post-Harappan settlements on the former
river bed.  It is by no means far-fetched to infer a causal relation between
the decline of the Harappan civilization and changes in the water-system
including the drying of the Saraswati.  I've seen very slightly conflicting
estimates for the drying between 2100 and 1500 BC, at any rate roughly
synchronous with the end of the Harappan high culture.  Let's count on
Science to provide more details in the near future.

In reading around about this topic, you may well come across the theory
recently publicized by astrophysicist Dr. Rajesh Kochar, that the Vedic
Saraswati was really in Afghanistan, being the Harahvaiti/Helmand river
(where no such cities
have been found).  I find it a bit odd that those Vedic poets described
Indian flora,
fauna, rivers, mountains, tribes, in a language brimful of loanwords from
Indian languages, yet lived along a non-Indian river.

Yours sincerely,
Koenraad Elst
http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Wed Dec  8 05:11:17 1999
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 00:11:17 -0500
Subject: Brahmins and Dalits (was : Jnanasambandar:)
Message-ID: <161227054321.23782.960547731418188246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is fierce competition and a lot of pressure in India to do well. But
that alone is not enough to explain why a lot of Indians are so neurotic
about education. One can see other examples of poor people in other
societies who have better access to a good education but are not as inclined
to pursue it. I think it helps to have a section of people who are respected
for their learning and not wealth or power. Its not that brahmans are the
sole custodians of knowledge but atleast they are a symbol that learning
matters. Old habits and instincts carry on and act as examples to others.

Having lived in hostels in universities in India, I have often seen kids
from uneducated families excel.

Westerners tend to get a wierd view of the caste system not having
experienced it themselves. An educated person in India regardless of caste
feels very empowered whereas an illiterate person is extremely diffident and
meek. I have seen brahmans servants who will only sit on the floor of his
employers house, while his educated son will confidently walk in and use the
telephone.

Anyway I guess I am straying from the usual topics discussed on this list.




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Dec  7 23:47:03 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 00:47:03 +0100
Subject: Astronomy (Agarwal)
In-Reply-To: <19991208030329.23202.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054332.23782.14722145934120286307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

After reading the message quoted below, members of Indology perhaps can
understand Dominik Wujastyk's sigh of exasperation. I add my own one(s)
here.

For the first kind, i.e.  "I am new... isn't X interesting", there is only
one answer:

        "READ the "scope of INDOLOGY statement" on the Indology web site!"

 i.e. "The forum is targetted at professional participants ... not
primarily for ... undergraduates ... amateur interest...;  elementary
questions ..elsewhere;  ....    you are welcome to lurk....

etc. , etc.,  et  cetera.


This is the reason why the following message is to be seen as sign of
exasperation not "haughtiness". I for one simply do not have the time which
some seem to have to send off three messages each day,  in "forceful
language on a topic [I]  feel passionate about"....

At 19:03 -0800 12/7/99, Vishal Agarwal wrote:
>MW wrote:
>the S'B is an IRON AGE text throughout, just about
>pre-Buddhist.  Which puts its smack into the first half of the first mill.
>BCE.
>VA: 'Just about pre-Buddhist'--> Please give a date for the text (centuries)
>and let us know which of your principles you have adopted for this date
>(date of redaction, general level etc.).

General answer : why don't you read the text yourself and see? Before
putting SUCH questions that have been answered by scores of my
predecessors.  We cannot always start from Adam and Eve (or Manu and iDA)
again and again.
I will just answer this one message and one by Elst and Manansala, as
EXEMPLARY CASES and then leave them to their own devices.

Where is Krishna Ayas/Syama Ayas
>mentioned in the text? Throughout?

Check it yourself. Ayas and derivatives occurs some 20 times throught the
text. Now take Vishva Bandhu's or other tools or even Eggeling's
translation, and see where 'black ' is used in conjunction with ayas. --
why don't you write a paper?

I do not take the bait: I am not a paid public relations officer. Of
course, if you pay me, say, a lawyer's fee of $ 200++ per hour, I will glad
to check out this question and others for you during my weekends...

>Is it mentioned in connection with some
>important applications or just by the way, with other metals? Does 'Iron'
>play an important role in this 'Iron Age' text?

Why don't you save us some time and simply look into MacDonell Keith's
Vedic Index?
Such questions are a waste of time. Chakrabarti and Rau have already
written about it in the early Seventies...  And, read D. W's descr. of
Indology (above).

>Do the passages of Shatapath
>Brahman mentioning Syama Ayasa belong to the 'general level' or the 'date of
>redaction' or the 'core' or the 'later interpolation'?

Ayas occurs throught the text. So does iron: Check zyAma and kRSNa!

>If the antiquity of
>Bhagvan Buddha is reduced by 1-2 centuries, as stated by Dr. Ganesan, how
>will it affect the date of this 'just pre-Buddhist' text?

What do you think? What could the answer to this rhetoric question be?
And who cares, as far as iron is concerned: after its introduction IT IS
THERE. Just increases in use (archaeologically).

>If the BU is one
>of the oldest Upanishad, then the 'late Upanishads' all post date this 'just
>pre-Buddhist' text?

???  "late Up.s" says it!

>Is the only reason to place an Iron Age text after 1200
>B.C.E. the non-discovery of Iron before that date? (An argument of silence).

Nope. That would be the typical  mono-lateral type of argument critized by
me already several times on this list (also, see anser to Elst) . We always
use other evidence as well.

>If in future Iron is indeed found before that date, then will the date of
>Sat Br. be affected?

Yes, *if* all the other evidence would agree... It doesn't: there are
earlier iron age texts (Atharvaveda, Yajurveda Samhitas). --  And if you do
not talk about occasional meteoric iron.

> If yes, then what is the use of linguistic theories in
>dating texts?

2 diff. kinds of methods, they must agree... And, e.g., text layers, see above.

>Considering that chemically, Iron is one of the highest metals
>in the reactivity series (After K, NA, Mg, Al, Zn--> Zn passivates on
>oxidation) and the fact that Fe2O3 is porous and its hydroxide is
>gelatinous, how sure are we that iron artifacts can indeed survive several
>millenia in a humid environment where the water table is very high?

Aho, bata!  Because it has been found. From E. Baluchistan to Bihar. Read
any excavation report.
Or summaries such as Agrawal, Allchin etc etc etc.

_____________

>MW: .... Kak etc. would have me as a medieval person...
>VA: Well, that certainly reminds me of the argument of the Eminent Historian
>Dr. Romila Thapar (who, according to you has made an uncritical use of
>Pauranic data)

correct, she was in the mid seventies. No longer today. WE actually learn...

> who says "The position of constellations might have been
>remembered and passed on from generation to generation. ...
>Well, I am sure that IE speakers had more important things to pass on over
>centuries (ballads on military victories, 'vague memories of a distant
>homeland', stories of migrations.... ) than some obscure astronomical data.

intended irony apart: How do you know? Were you there? Why do peope build a
Stonehenge? Or the Mayas their observatory? (Simple) astronomy (see Aveni)
always has been important.  Priests talk  a lot about (fairly simpe)
astronomy in the post-RV  Vedic texts. Necessary for yearly, seasonal etc.
yajnas.


>MW: (The matter of KRttikAs ... any astronomical computer program will show).
>VA: Which computer program?

Again, I am not a nurse or Indology jukku coach. ANY one will do. Say,
Voyager II.
Check it out: date (2900, 2300 BCE) + place (say Delhi or Lahore ) will do...

>Please email me a file or snail mail me your
>charts and calculations. Mention what special software applications are
>required.Explain each and every such passage in Sanskrit literature.

Yes, Sir! Coming, Sir! Everything for a raise, Sir!

>Otherwise, this is just another 'haughty dismissal'!

Nope. Just pay me for my time!

MW.

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Dec  7 23:56:57 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 00:56:57 +0100
Subject: astronomy (Elst)
In-Reply-To: <01bf40d3$146e18e0$db037bd4@deze-computer.pandora.be>
Message-ID: <161227054334.23782.3022085188025841836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 17:49 +0100 12/7/99, Koenraad Elst wrote:
>Friends,
>
>Not only Subhash Kak, but also TS Kupanna Sastry: The Vedanga Jyotisa of
>Lagadha, p.13 ff. have argued that the Vedanga Jyotisa dates to ca. 1300 BC.
>As an astronomical treatise, and not a hymn book containing some indirect
>astronomical hints as the RgVeda is, the VJ can be firmly dated.

astronomically, perhaps, but what about its form?
The same fallacy as in the Satapatha argument about the Krttikas.

Who has seen a Vedic text composed in Slokas, looking like Manu,
Mahabharata, or the middle level Katha Upanisad? If soemone canshow me a
PRE-iron age sloka   treatise, I am ready to believe that the Vedanga
Jyotisa is from 1300 BC., andnot just its astronomy....

See same argument in: Astronomy (Agarwal).

Such mono-lateral argumentation as used  BY KAK, SASTRY, ELST
argumentation leads nowhere.
If you see that  modern/recent birds have the structure  of dinosaurs that
does not make them
much of pre-jurassic creatures... They are recasts in a more modern form
just as the  Jyotisa ...


>Now, in
>Prof. Witzel's chronology, this would make it contemporaneous with the
>RgVeda.  Isn't that odd?

Nope, just the unilateral argument...

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Dec  8 00:19:57 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 01:19:57 +0100
Subject: bones and flesh
In-Reply-To: <384BF15F.5AF8A2D1@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227054336.23782.13203613664727652069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 9:24 -0800 12/6/99, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>Michael Witzel wrote:

P. Manansala:
>>... Munda did not originally have retroflexes....
>>  This theory does not take
>> >linguistic drift into adequate account.
>>
>> Well, one simply cannot *reconstruct* them for Proto-Munda, with the
>> exeption of retroflex D, -- which is a strange dissymetry in the consonant
>> system ( t : no d , no T but D...).
>
>That seems difficult to believe, but I'm not one for reconstruction
>anyway.

A good theory PREDICTS. Comparative historical linguistics have predicted,
before texts were found with the predicted characteristics ,
eg. Archaic Greek (Mycenean) *kw  or IE  larungeals (h1-3), at lest one
type of which was subsequently found in Hittite pehur = Greek puur = fire.

Anybody who cannot see that this theory works better keeps quiet. We had
that sort of discussion in teh Thirties & Forties. They are on teh dustbin
of  history by now.

Or one should join one of the  'anything goes' lists. Opinions are not
required here, arguments are. The rejection of reconstruction makes most of
the following arguments obsolete.

>Munda has retroflexion in its infix system

which ones? I do not know of any -D- infix...

>which we know did not come from "Aryan" or modern Dravidian.

>Of course, it come have come
>from another extinct language, but this is doubtful since infixation is
>found throughout Austro-Asiatic and even Austric.

That's quite another matter.  an infix -n- is not an infix -D-....

>Generally speaking, I would agree with SK Chatterji that people
>tend to borrow words or languages but retain their own sound systems.

It seems to look like that frequently but proof is another matter. Easily,
circular arguments...

>This was the reason the latter gave for retroflexion in "Aryan"
>languages (Munda Dravidian people speaking foreign language).

This confuses ethnicity (or even 'race'??) with language. A cardinal sin
these days.


>If retroflexion was not native to Munda, then we either have to accept
>that modern Munda speakers were originally non-Munda speakers who
>borrowed  Munda languages,

Note the many cahnges in Munda from monosyll, root & word structure to one
with  more complex words, from a basically prefixing & infixing to a
suffixing language etc. etc.  Note the geminata not typical for Munda but
existing in Masica's Language X" in the Gangetic basin... etc. (see ejvs,
Sept 1999).

>or that all Munda languages, but one,
>borrowed extensive retroflex sounds into their own language.

This is still going on... from Hindi & Bengali, and from Telugu in the South.

> These sounds would even have been incorporated into native infixes and
>vocabulary.

Please show 'native' infixes. I have not seen any -D-. Native vocab. would
involve words built from reconstructed Munda (or preferably even
Austro-Asiatic) roots...

>> >Also, the use of initial retroflexes in Munda and "Aryan" languages
>> >as opposed to the non-initial retroflex system in the south.

>> Modern IA and modern Munda. Not in Vedic.  Just a time difference of some
>> 3500 years....

>Well,  my point is the North-South division of retroflexion.
>If we subscribe to the theory that Dravidian was "pushed" southward
>by invading Indo-Aryans, when did they lose (or did northerners gain?)
>initial retroflexion?

You do not need any 'pushing' Aryans, there are many other models of
language transfer.
And were do you get your 'initial retroflexion'? On what basis? This is
just an empty assumption.



 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From tancredi at OTENET.GR  Wed Dec  8 03:30:25 1999
From: tancredi at OTENET.GR (IreneMaradei)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 05:30:25 +0200
Subject: Brahmins and Dalits (was : Jnanasambandar:)
Message-ID: <161227054317.23782.7339171319218329604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 In this brahmin debate, I get the feeling that Indian posters react
strongly because of their personal experience and depending on the community
they come from . So, accordingly, brahmins are either sanctified "en masse"
or daemonized, again "en masse". But while obviously  there are numerous
cases to prove both attitudes, there are some general facts that cannot be
ignored.

I don't think nobody in their right mind would question the fact that
historically dalits had the bad deal, and the brahmins were privileged by
the caste rules they helped to formulate and preserve. And it is very
natural and human and understandable that they don't like to see them eroded
by anything.

     It is like my (non-brahmin) lady friend in Delhi- a university
lecturer, and very intelligent woman- who said she doesn't let her maid do
some things in her house because "she lives in a dirty area and is possibly
dirty, because she doesn't have access to clean water and probably she will
not want to spend on soap". "Then why don't you have her take a bath  as
soon as she comes,and put on a clean sari specially reserved for when she's
in your house?" " What? Use my bathroom???? The same one that we use?"   So
finally, by the "dirty" argument, she was just rationalizing her disgust at
the dalit maid, because she didn't like to see that it really was a caste
thing. I suppose that having her son in university side by side with that
woman's son one day would not be of her liking, although she would try
frantically to find a logical excuse for that... Let's face it, caste
prejudices in India are very much alive even today, and have little to do
with money.

Love of knowledge

Isn't it a bit naive to say that all brahmins - or "all" of any group of
people - had a love for knowledge in itself?
      First of all, from what I know, knowledge was their "business", their
traditional "profession", as shoemaking was the traditional profession of
shoemakers. And, as pointed out, knowledge in old times meant in great part
religious knowledge, because most if not all brahmins were priests, right?
      Secondly, love for knowledge is not some abstract thing that you get
from your genes!  Surely any of you who is also a parent will know
firsthand that a family with culture and knowledge and a love for books will
also - in the vast majority of cases- instill that knowledge in the
children, its new members. So my children, who always see me grab a book in
my spare time, will get the message that books are a nice thing.  When the
family uses good, polished language with a rich vocabulary, and also speaks
two or more foreign languages, it will naturally urge the child to learn
them too. The conversations the children hear will be more varied and
interesting and eye opening. And of course educated parents can answer
better  their children's questions on everything,  so the child does not
only rely on what he/she learns at school.   On the other hand, the child
who only sees its parents and grandparents reading trash magazines and
sports papers, everybody  speaking with a 200-word vocabulary full of gross
mistakes, and most conversations are about daily matters, gossip etc...  is
more likely to follow their example.
      I' m not saying that some uneducated people (especially in rural
areas) may not have a profound wisdom and give their children really good
values and a great philosophy of life. But we are talking of tools for
academic excellence here. A child from  unprivileged surroundings  may, due
to circumstances, to a good influence by teacher or friend, or I don't know
by what internal drive, acquire a love for culture and knowledge, but this
will happen later on, and the child of the cultured family will always have
a head start, if both children have the same intelligence ( but what is
intelligence? It can be arguably cultivated, too...) and put the same
effort. The child from the uncultured family will need extra effort, to get
to the same results.

I read about the dalit son who excelled academically. Of course this is very
possible, but you must admit it is an exception rather than the rule. Here
in the West we have many examples of children of poor or uneducated families
whose parents really did many sacrifices to have them educated and these
children got to a very high position. It may also be argued that these
people put in more effort, because they are less blase, and also their need
to climb socially is more acute, and also the parents are more desperate
because this education they are bying at greater cost, saving every penny
and working extra hours.  But all this does not prove that the poor or
uneducated classes of the West ( the equivalent of dalits in India) have the
same chances.
     You cannot say " See? When they want it badly enough, they can do it"
First they must be given a chance to want it. How can they even know what
they want if they don't know how, what is this thing they want, if nobody
really introduced them to the joys it can bring? As rightly stated,
especially in the last two centuries, for many education  means just a
better career ( In Europe, we have recently come to the opposite extreme: an
electrician makes more than a teacher, and it's all tax free) and that's why
parents started looking into it.  Secondly, it is so difficult that only
those really very motivated can make it. These kids  do  start with a
handicap.
       Now  democratic, secular India, has tried to inverse that handicap,
and give them a chance to get into universities and jobs etc...( same debate
as reservation for women!)   It is a double-edged sword, and of course it
may enable less well equipped persons to make it, and may produce a lowering
of the quality of graduates - because five years or ten years of education
cannot fill the gap of the lack of proper grounding at home. It also may
produce a feeling of injustice and frustration, when equally good brahmin
sons/daughters fail to get the place.  But on the other hand, no other
better way has been proposed.  Flawed as it is, this system is gradually
changing the traditional situation where knowledge was more- if now
exclusively- in hands of brahmins. The reservation system  is too recent a
development for its effects to be properly assessed. But I rather feel the
next generations will see improvement, because these first-generation
educated dalits may still be a bit crude, but their children will be less
so, and their grandchildren even less. And then hopefully there will be a
balance.  And there may come a day where the only people who pursue
knowledge will be the ones who love it and are ready to devote their life
for it: not because it is traditional in their families to do so.

     If this last sentence seems to contradict what I said earlier about the
importance of family, let me explain what I mean, by refining my earlier
statement: even in the most educated family, there will be lazy children,
who do not respond so much, they are somehow indifferent to learning, taking
it for granted and/or despising it;  and even in the most backward family in
a remote mountain spot, there will be a child which shines out by its thirst
for knowledge, enquiring nature and brilliant mind.  So it would be good
that this child has a chance to get the place it deserves, and an
opportunity to refine that mind, even if at the beginning he/she has to
struggle harder to learn the ABC's the others have sucked with their milk.
And, if, in university, the mountain child comes into contact with the child
of the aristocratic family, it should be ensured that the former does not
get  belittled or  scorned because of lacking in polish and social graces or
making obvious questions or wearing old shoes!

 (Sorry for putting my thoughts  in somehow simplistic terms, it comes from
my being a journalist in a very popular newspaper for  decades- I am used to
addressing a very wide public of mostly ignorant people, and I guess it has
become a habit :) )

Irene Maradei




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  8 14:56:35 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 06:56:35 -0800
Subject: astronomy (Elst)
Message-ID: <161227054338.23782.6777491197847200170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr.  Koenraad Elst wrote:
>Friends,
>
>Not only Subhash Kak, but also TS Kupanna Sastry: The Vedanga [...]

  BTW, his name was KuppaNNa Sastry. In Tamil, the additional
-p- makes difference.

>Now, in
>Prof. Witzel's chronology, this would make it contemporaneous with
>the RgVeda.  Isn't that odd?

  Now that the RV, in its present linguistic form, is dated to
1000 BCE, Shri. Kuppanna Sastry, the erudite Sanskrit scholar,
is probably wrong in his dating. The VJ is plausibly 2-4 centuries
CE. It is not uncommon among Tamils to optimistically date anything.
Have seen dates of TolkAppiyam, Vedas, etc., to 30,000, 8000,
3000 BCE.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




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From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Dec  8 07:05:42 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 07:05:42 +0000
Subject: Age of the Rigveda
Message-ID: <161227054310.23782.13653768807512684986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I just finished reading a fascinating, extremely referenced, booklet from the
Adyar Library; this may have some nexus in the context of the recent queries
regarding the date of the Rigveda since Pargiter's geneaology tables, with
quotes from the Maha Bharata and the Pura_n.as, do take off from RV textual
references.

>From Prof. K. Srinivasa Raghavan, 1969, The Date of the Maha Bharata War and
the Kali Yugadhi, Madras, Srinivasa Gandhi Nilayaman, pp. 22-23:

"Solar eclipse is indicated on both the occasions just before the Maha Bharata
War and before the Yadava Civil war, 35 years after the MB war. It is stated
that both amavasyas came on the 13th day. Again three tithis in a day is
indicated by the words: Caturdas'i was made Poorn.ima_. These conditions are
satisfied on the dates shown below?

New Moon Date 13 October 3067 BC, Julian Day 601488, Week Day Sunday 0-25, 
Sun 224-89, Rahu 219-74
Full Moon Date 27 October 3067 BC, Julian Day 601502, Sun 0-99, Sun 239-46,
Rahu 218-93
New Moon Date 11 November 3067 BC, Julian Day 601517, Monday 1-78, Sun 254-02,
Rahu 218-13
New Moon Date 11 December 3067 BC, Julian Day 601547, Wednesday 3-31, Sun
283-15, Rahu 216-52

?The day following the amavasya of 11 November 3067 BC is the first s'ukla
prathama of the year, at the beginning of Margas'ira month and s'arad
rithu?Therefore Durga Puja or Navarathri started on Tuesday 12 November 3067
BC?Hence the Maha Bharata War was started on Friday, Margas'ira month, s'ukla
ekadas'I tithi, krittika naks.atra, 22 November 3067 BC---601528 Julian Day,
ekadas'I ending at Friday 5.60 and the Moon at 37.74 or Krittika on Friday
morning. This is in complete accord with the tradition."

MB Udyoga P:arva Ch. 142 notes: Kris.n.a left Hastina_pura on uttara phalguni
day with Karn.a in his chariot?Kris.n.a told Karn.a that the seventh day from
then, Jyes.t.ha Day, was Amavasya, and asked him to advise Duryodhana to begin
the war preparations on that day?On this Jyes.t.ha day mentioned by Kris.n.a,
the sun and the moon were at 225 degrees. So, on the uttara phalguni day, the
day of the conversation, the sun was at 218 degrees and Rahu at 220 degrees
was approaching the sun, and the moon was approaching the sun from behind.

The question is: from the data provided by modern astronomical computations,
did such a confluence of solar eclipse and the start of s'ukla prathama occur
on any other dates in the past, say over 2 millennia before present?

Dr. S. Kalyanaraman



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From GthomGt at CS.COM  Wed Dec  8 12:56:13 1999
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 07:56:13 -0500
Subject: saraswati civilisation
Message-ID: <161227054330.23782.13601202193839704556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Careful readers will note that I did not say that NO earthly rivers were
identified with the mythical Sarasvati.  No, I said that MANY were.

I quote myself:

"As for the Vedic word, *sa'rasvatI*, it is identical with the Avestan word
*harahvaiti* and the Old Persian word *harahuvati* -- all of which are
adjectives meaning something like  "rich in ponds", and which are liable to
be applied to ANY earthly river whatsoever with the appropriate features.
There never was ONE *sa'rasvatI* on this earth, but rather a number of local
avatAras."

As for the h < s change which preoccupies Vishal Agarwal, since it took place
before the Vedic period it is for present purposes completely irrelevant.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From alvapillai.veluppillai at TEOL.UU.SE  Wed Dec  8 07:39:27 1999
From: alvapillai.veluppillai at TEOL.UU.SE (Alvappillai Veluppillai)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 08:39:27 +0100
Subject: Jnanasambandar: Nanda Chandran's question
In-Reply-To: <19991207182541.10639.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054325.23782.12027502222668777152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The story of the persecution of the Jains by Jnanasambandar has an
interesting development in Tamil. Sambandar's hymns, dated in 7th c.  refer
to disputation only. Nampiyandar Nampi, a Brahmin author of 11th c. was the
first to credit Sambandar with persecution of 8000 Jains. Some later
authors accept persecution story but try to exonerate Sambandar. The story
of persecution of 8000 is highly improbable.
T. P. Meenakshisunderanar deals with this problem in his book, Sambandarum
Samanarum (Sennai, Rudra Press, 1957).
Perhaps the latest publication on this problem is
A. Veluppillai, "The Hindu Confrontation with the Jaina and the Buddhist.
Saint Tirunanacampantar's Polemical Writings", The Problem of Ritual, ed.
T. Ahlback ( ?bo: The Donner Institute for Research in Religious and
Cultural History, 1993), pp. 335- 364.

/ A. Veluppillai
>>he claims that Sasanka was an astik smartha and not a nastika Shaiva.
>>Indeed it appears from the URL that the Shaivas were more tolerant than the
>>Buddhists or Jainas, who were in turn more tolerant than Vaishnavas and
>>Vaidiks.
>
>All this is just purely political. When Vaishnavism openly defines itself as
>Ubahya VedAnta and Shankara who was an orthodox brahmin is generally
>regarded as a Shaivite and JnAnasampandhar was a brahmin, how can such
>claims be justified?
>
>In todays India, if you're anti brahmin and can also prove that your
>people were "persecuted" by brahmins, you can enjoy the benefits of
>the reservation system etc So to that extent everybody is eager to
>prove that they were "persecuted" by brahmins. In such a claim they
>also seek support of other groups, who also for the same reason claim
>priveleges.
>
>So in the quoted sentences the equation is that,
>
>Vaishnavas and Vaidiks = brahmins
>
>Buddhist and Jainas = brahmins + upper castes + few lower castes
>
>Shaivas = Saiva SiddAntists (who have a strong non-brahmin following
>                             in Tamil Nadu, many of whom enjoy the
>                             privelege of the "backward" or "other
>                             backward" caste status and also are a
>                             powerful political force.)
>
>So if you're a Dalit, how would you present your case? You raise a
>big cry about brahmanic oppression and side with the BCs and OBCs to
>derive political and economic mileage.
>
>But what the Dalits don't realize or probably do - but don't
>want to acknowledge it at present, is that the brahmins only have a
>religious bias against them. They simply do not care what the Dalits
>do in terms of profession or economic prosperity etc But that's what
>the BCs and OBCs are interested in and in the long term this will
>bring both sections in direct confrontation with each other. It's
>already happening - with the clashes between the Dalits and upper
>caste Tamils on the increase. And it is not that the BCs and OBCs are
>egalitarian either. Their casteism and discrimination against the Dalits is
>even worser than the brahmins and would be even more acutely felt by the
>Dalits since it will be in the economic and social sphere.
>
>The so called persecution by the brahmins is itself a Marxist innovation,
>which gives them a reason to exist in India. For in reality, brahmanic
>oppression was never economic, with the brahmins themselves having renounced
>wealth voluntarily.
>
>And the Muslim interest in this whole affair is that they don't want the
>Hindus to come together and turn on them for all their past atrocities. So
>it is in their interest that the Hindus - upper and lower castes - are kept
>busy, fighting each other.
>
>A few months back somebody replying to a post by Vishal which was
>deliberately misinterpreted as a physical threat, said they didn't think
>that something as harmless as Indological studies can be so dangerous - well
>for foreign professors sitting in foreign lands it sure isn't - but in India
>the so called "Aryan invasion" has a devastating effect - which has resulted
>in social discord and cultural decay - for it is perceived that everything
>"Aryan" is wrong. And while the professor in a foreign university speculates
>about the Aryanization of India with a glass of scotch, he doesn't realize
>or maybe doesn't even care, that his speculations cause economically poor,
>harmless "Aryan" brahmins to be abused - physically, socially and
>economically.
>
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From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE  Wed Dec  8 08:21:06 1999
From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 09:21:06 +0100
Subject: saraswati civilisation
Message-ID: <161227054327.23782.8653978099247598171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Alright, Dr. Thompson, let's treat Indology as a science too.  And Saraswati
as a legitimate object of indological discussion, considering its prominence
in the Rg-Veda.  What firm
data does Indology have on the identification of a real or imaginary object
as "Saraswati"?

For once, I have mainstream opinion on my side: most scholars now accept
that the Saraswati is to a physical river, as is clear from their
discussions on whether a river in India or one in Afghanistan is meant.  The
first verse that comes to mind where Saraswati can hardly be anything except
an earthly river, is the famous river hymn (10:75), where it is listed along
with the
Ganga, Yamuna, Sindhu etc.  If you can convince me that a heavenly river was
inserted amid the north-Indian rivers, I'll return a second verse.

Yours sincerely,
Koenraad Elst
http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  8 17:34:03 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 09:34:03 -0800
Subject: Astronomy (Agarwal)
Message-ID: <161227054340.23782.12564526958518826802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

An Indologist once suggested that people knowing at least one
Indian language well can write in a scholarly forum devoted
to ancient India. Perhaps also, a quote from an academic journal, an
Indian text or a university publication will help to rise above mere
opinions on munda, sanskrit, tamil.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


Prof. Witzel wrote:
<<<
After reading the message quoted below, members of Indology perhaps
can understand Dominik Wujastyk's sigh of exasperation. I add my own
one(s) here.

For the first kind, i.e.  "I am new... isn't X interesting", there is
only one answer:  "READ the "scope of INDOLOGY statement" on the
Indology web site!"
i.e. "The forum is targetted at professional participants ... not
primarily for ... undergraduates ... amateur interest...;  elementary
questions ..elsewhere;  ....    you are welcome to lurk....
etc. , etc.,  et  cetera.
>>>

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From kekai at JPS.NET  Wed Dec  8 18:40:12 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 10:40:12 -0800
Subject: Jnanasambandar: Nanda Chandran's question
Message-ID: <161227054284.23782.1685609407381900327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nanda Chandran seems to blame the whole caste mess on everybody
in India with the exception of brahmins themselves.

This sort of reminds me of people in the U.S. who claim that racism here
is fueled by minorities themselves.

Regards
Paul Kekai Manansala

nanda chandran wrote:
>


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From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Wed Dec  8 18:59:18 1999
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 10:59:18 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054344.23782.1042016853531028373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- "N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> If so, the kATi(dr.)/zATI(skt) is probably what is
> seen on the
> shoulders of the so called 'priest' of IVC and
> latter on the Buddha.

The IVC 'priest''s garment with the trefoil motif
seems to be of ritual significance. Parpola who has
written about in detail ("The Sky Garment", "The Indus
Script") seems to think it is similar to the "tarpya"
garment of the RV.

Thanks and Warm Regards,

LS
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From kekai at JPS.NET  Wed Dec  8 19:27:45 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 11:27:45 -0800
Subject: Jnanasambandar: Nanda Chandran's question
Message-ID: <161227054291.23782.3835942050624802235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

nanda chandran wrote:

My problem with your arguments is that they seemed to refer mainly to
the ancient situation.

Over the last few centuries it would be very hard indeed to portray
brahmins as bowl or skull carrying beggars.

In the last century they have been among the most privileged economic
groups and by far the most privileged in terms of political power and
education.

Whatever was the case in "Vedic" society, the situation today is a
result of caste rules seemingly formulated by brahmins, and in which
brahmins today appear the greatest benefactors.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

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From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Wed Dec  8 06:31:51 1999
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 12:01:51 +0530
Subject: Brahmins and Dalits (was : Jnanasambandar:)
In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD013F3B23@SMGMAIL>
Message-ID: <161227054323.23782.546388018347715165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> On 7 Dec 1999, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: " Brahmins cannot be accused
> of direct exploitation genocide, enslavement and stealing wealth."

I once harboured such views, and also used to consider Brahmins as
`the treasurers of ancient Indian learning' until I read an (apparently
factual) book which seems to prove that the converse was the case -

  `Brahmin Gold' by Prof. Shankar Nadar (full book)
  http://dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/b_gold/b_gold.html

 Those who propagate the view of the `poor learned Brahmin' of Manu must
refute all the points raised in Prof. Nadar's book. There are too many to
be discussed in a single post, but perhaps the most forceful ones made
are:

- The Magadhan spy system and forced labor camps of Pandit Kautilya on
  the lines of the later Soviet Union seem to have killed millions.

- The Muslim `invaders' discovered huge quantities of gold hidden in
  Brahmanic temples. This `Brahmin Gold' was the prime source of the
  astronomic wealth of early Indo-Muslim courts; ie. wealth seems to have
  been concentrated in the hands of Brahmins at ca. 1000 AD.

- The famines during Anglo-Brahmin rule killed millions.

> nanda chandran wrote: "Instead of letting the brahmin enjoy his
> 'explotation', [Manu] condemns him to a life of poverty and strife."

This is a good point. But Prof. Nadar seems to show that it was Pandit
Kautilya who was more to be blamed. For recent exploitation, it seems
Pandit Nehru and his descendants are at fault.

> nanda chandran : " The so called persecution by the brahmins is itself a
> Marxist innovation "

But was not Pandit Kautilya the founder of Communism ? Is not Marxism in
India itself mainly supported by upper castes ?

> nanda chandran : "And the Muslim interest in this whole affair is that
> they don't want the Hindus to come together and turn on them for all
> their past atrocities."

Here Mr. Nanda seem to consider the Brahmins as `Hindus'. I remember some
time back Mr. Nanda was trying to show that Dravidian temples were built
by Brahmins instead of Tamils by citing some Adivasi tribes who lived in
forests, ate meat and practiced cannibalism. Both things are not possible:

1. Either Brahmins are `Hindus' and are also part of the cannibalism,
flesh-eating and wine-drinking practiced by Adivasi `Hindus', but not
guilty of `oppression',

2. Or Brahmins are separate from Dravidians, Adivasis etc. and, whilst not
guilty of cannibalism, would thence be automatically guilty of some
historical crimes of oppression.

This choice is theirs alone. From physiognomy and personal experience, I
think Brahmins are Brahmins. The only way to counter the charges of
oppression is to find similar instances of crimes against Brahmins, and to
show that it was not a one-sided affair. Are there any such cases of `mass
murders of Brahmins' ?

> Irene Maradei: "[Reservation] also may produce a feeling of injustice
> and frustration, when equally good brahmin sons/daughters fail to get
> the place.

 I can understand the frustration, and it is highly unfortunate that the
present generation is blamed for historic wrongs. Once again, since
reservations occurred in the 1990s, this is outside the scope of Indology.
Indology is a science, reservations are politics. Let us stick to
Indology and the purely academic question of history.

Samar.




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  8 20:07:57 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 12:07:57 -0800
Subject: Brahmins and Dalits (was : Jnanasambandar:)
Message-ID: <161227054346.23782.1765772775562381785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>'Brahmin Gold' by Prof. Shankar Nadar

Samar please give it a rest. All this Dalitstan stuff is just politically
motivated and is devoid of any historical or factual value. It just aims to
shock readers with its preposterous allegations.

For a good background on Dalits and other backward castes - what they were
and what lead to their present condition - economic and social, read
Kosambi's works on Indian history. And it can hardly be labelled as biased,
as the author himself is a Marxist historian.


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From kekai at JPS.NET  Wed Dec  8 21:40:53 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 13:40:53 -0800
Subject: Jnanasambandar: Nanda Chandran's question
Message-ID: <161227054298.23782.15521028192914933244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rajarshi Banerjee wrote:

> In mordern India dalits have had a late start as far as education is
> concerned and also have traditionally been poor. Brahmins in comparision
> have had a head start.

And are traditionally wealthier than most other castes.

The question is does caste exploitation have anything to with this?
I would say the answer is resoundingly, yes. The fact that brahmins
do not directly exploit dalits does not mean they have no part in
this exploitation.  In fact, they benefit indirectly from this
exploitation by their position in the modoern caste hierarchy, which
they were instrumental in formulating.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

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From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Wed Dec  8 19:24:13 1999
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 14:24:13 -0500
Subject: Brahmins and Dalits (was : Jnanasambandar:)
Message-ID: <161227054342.23782.13046918591019242444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

- The Magadhan spy system and forced labor camps of Pandit Kautilya on
  the lines of the later Soviet Union seem to have killed millions.

this is idiotic, kautilya's adversaries were rival power brokers and enemy
spies and  soldiers. I dont see how dalits come into the picture. He did
help out Chandragupta who would be classified as a dalit in todays
vocabulary. This phase of history is really poorly documented how does prof
nadar draw all these conclusions and go as far as to compare it with russia.

- The Muslim `invaders' discovered huge quantities of gold hidden in
  Brahmanic temples. This `Brahmin Gold' was the prime source of the
  astronomic wealth of early Indo-Muslim courts; ie. wealth seems to have
  been concentrated in the hands of Brahmins at ca. 1000 AD.

gold and gifts are donated to temples to this day by the rich( not dalits )
it does not harm the dalits. Such gold was not the only livlihood of
brahmans in India. At worst such donations can be termed as a waste of money
unless they are put to good use.

- The famines during Anglo-Brahmin rule killed millions.

Sure brahmans and brits plotted famines which selectively killed only the
dalits. My understanding is famines have affected rural populations more.
But no brahmanas ever lived in villages. they lived near temples with pots
of gold only

>This is a good point. But Prof. Nadar seems to show that it was Pandit
Kautilya who was more to be blamed. For recent exploitation, it seems
Pandit Nehru and his descendants are at fault.
But was not Pandit Kautilya the founder of Communism ? Is not Marxism in
India itself mainly supported by upper castes ?

By prof nadar's rules pandit jinnah should be blamed for poverty in
pakistan.
Maybe pandit kautilya appeared to pandit marx or pandit stalin in a dream.
Who is this prof nadar he really seems to be deluded. Anyway I give up, this
makes no sense anymore.

I believe that for every pandit jayalalitha there is an equal and opposite
prof mayavati. hmm on 2nd thought mayavati maybe a lesser evil.




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Dec  8 14:33:26 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 14:33:26 +0000
Subject: saraswati civilisation
Message-ID: <161227054328.23782.11458821744661388509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson wrote:
> Let us not wait for science to come to us. Let us do science ourselves. 

Our science seems to have misled other sciences into looking for a river in
the Great Indian Desert and in Afghanistan. If the river was a myth, will the
people referred to as living on the banks of the river also be mythical
beings? Sure, Vedic literature has lots of mythology (also some science) but
then, a recent article by Prof. Witzel assumes that many people lived around
this mythical river (also called VaizambhAlyA)... 

Anyway, here is an excerpt from a recent article which appeared in Current
Science, which should certainly be of interest and perhaps of some value:

"Sarasvati emerged as a mighty river during the warm spell that succeeded the
Pleistocene glaciation some 10,000 years ago. Flowing down the Himalayan
slopes, it had coursed through northwestern India and drained into the ancient
Arabian Sea? (studies) have indicated that spells of intermittent tectonic
activities associated with the rise of Himalayas, neotectonism in the Kutch
region, climatic changes and desertification induced by variations in earth's
orbit and tile, diminishing supply of waters due to river piracy, all appear
to have had vital roles in the downfall of the Sarasvati River?While tectonism
had certainly a major role in shaping the fate of Sarasvati and other rivers,
this could not have been the only agent bringing about various changes that
led to its downfall?It is well known that variation in earth's orbit and tilt
of earth's axis affect the earth's climate (Milankovitch and albedo forces). A
drastic weather change related to these phenomena had peaked around 7000 BC.
Recent studies have shown that the onset of an arid climate occurred in two
pulses-at 4700-3700 and at 2000-1700 BC, both of which had fairly wide impact
not only in India in the desertification of western Rajasthan but in other
countries also, like Africa in the development of Saharan and Nubian
deserts?Computer-based climate stimulation studies, to reproduce the changes
to solar heating of the atmosphere due to variation sin earth's tilt and orbit
have shown that climate-induced weakening of monsoons over India and north
Africa led to desertification in a span of just 300 years?" (Claussen, M.
Kubatzki, C., Braovkin V., Ganopolski, A., Hoelzmann, P. and Pachur, H.J.,
Geophys. Res. Lett., 1999, 26, 2037-2040; Sankaran, A.V., Saraswati-the
ancient river lost in the desert, Current Science, Vol. 77, No. 8, 25 October
1999).

Dr. S. Kalyanaraman



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From kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM  Thu Dec  9 03:13:58 1999
From: kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM (Krishna Kalale)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 19:13:58 -0800
Subject: Vaishnavism & Saivism
Message-ID: <161227054358.23782.701989388824040769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friends,

I have a question. This is purely out of intellectual curiosity. I would
like to know if there are any literature, either historic or preferably
dialectics between Vaishnavism and Saivism.  Particularly I like logical
books that give pramanas or quote appropriate scriptures for support.  All
I need are the source books and some scriptural commonality between the
schools that deal with such polemical issues.   I have come across a number
of polemic literature between systems of philosophy - Samkhyas, Buddhists,
Jainists, Advaita, Visistadvaita, Dvaita etc.  However,  I have not come
across polemical books between Vaishnavism and Saivism.  The only few works
I know were writtten by "Sri Appayya Diksita", Sri Madhvacharya, Sri
Ramanujacharya,  Sri Vedanta Desika etc.regarding this subject.  Except Sri
Appayya Diksita, the other authors were from Vaishnava schools.  I would
like to know more about Saiva Literature which deals with this subject in
particular.  Historically,  I am aware of some hostilities.  I am not
interested in these issues but just objective academic writings.

There may be some tamil works on this topic, which I am not familiar with.
 Personally I prefer sanskrit books since I am not comfortable in tamil.
However, I would like to know tamil works also so that somehow I will get
help from others to understand the view points.  I am aware that in some
Alwar pasurams this subject is dealt with.  Are there similar works in
Nayanmar's compositions?

thanks

Krishna Kalale




From SSRVJ at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  9 01:03:36 1999
From: SSRVJ at AOL.COM (Somayaji Rajagopala)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 20:03:36 -0500
Subject: ThirujnAnasampandar and JainAs
Message-ID: <161227054355.23782.8693522533291087132.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 12/2/99 12:26:13 PM EST, vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

<< In South Indian history, there's an instance where the great Saivite
 saint ThirujnAnasampandar is supposed to have converted a king from
 Jainism to Saivism. Local tradition uses a word (which I don't remember)
 which seems to indicate that many JainA monks were killed following the
 conversion. >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
The King's name was sri.Soundara Pandian. His Capital was Madurai. He was a 
Jaina(Samanar)-.He was also known as "Koon (Hunch Back)Pandian"-because of 
his Physical deformity. He won the Chola and Chera Kings in War-As per 
prevailing practice, Chola king's daughter smt.Mangayarkarasi was given in 
marriage to Pandian and one great Scholar sri.Kula Chiraiyaar was also sent 
to Madurai, who eventually became the Chief-Minister(C.M) Smt. Mangayarkarasi 
and sri.Kula Chiraiyar were great Lord Siva worshippers(Saivites).The Pandian 
King was of firm convictions and authoritative- but a man of secular 
attitude. The Queen and the C.M. did  NOT  want to displease the King -so 
they practiced Saivism(especially wearing "Thiru-Neeru"(Ash)etc -very 
secretly. They SECRETLY invited sri.Thirugjnaana Sambandar(Synonyms -Aaludai 
Pillai-Kaazhi Pillai- who was in his Teen-age) to come Madurai and establish 
Saiva Cult(Neri)in Pandya Kingdom .sri.Kazhi Pillaiar accepted the invitation 
and came to Madurai-much against the advice of sri Thirunaavukku 
Arasar(another Saiva Saint)-who escaped narrowly an attempt on his life by 
Jainas(Samanar).As expected Madurai Jainas were not happy with sriSambandar?s 
visit. In spite of C.M?s tight security arrangements Jainas Torched the house 
in which sri Sambandar was staying-but in vain. sri.Sambandar cursed that 
-let the heat in fire affect the King who failed in his duty to protect a 
Religious Leader. Pandian King was affected by a very high and severe form of 
fever-or some kind of allergy(Hot Erethema).The word used is "Veppu". Jaina 
Munis could  not cure with medicines and Recitations. Queen and  C.M. 
suggested  to the King why not a chance be given to Sambandar to cure the 
disease. Being a strong Jaina, the King was initially reluctant of smearing 
the Ash on his body-but gave-up-due to severity of the disease. On the 
challenge of Jainas, sri Sambandar agreed to treat the  Right side and Jainas 
left side. Jainas again objected that sri sambandar should not use the Ash, 
he has brought with him.-saying that it might be a witch-craft and not 
treatment. sri.Sambandar agreed to use the Ash from the kitchen of Madurai 
sri.Somasundareswarar Temple and he succeeded in curing on the side he was 
treating.- The Padhikam(Recitation) he used was "Mandhiram Aavadhum 
Neeru----------Thiruvaalavaayaan Thiru neere"( I think 21 verses)-at the 
request of the King, he treated the other side also and the King was free 
from Veppu Noi. ---8000 Jainas subsequently challenged sri Sambandar- if his 
Recitations (Thevaaram-in Tamil) written on  Palm Leaves does not get 
destroyed in Fire(Anal Vaadham) and swim against the Current in Vaigai 
River(Punal Vaadham) as against their Verses written on Palm leaves they 
would climb(in Tamil Eruthal means-voluntary climbing only) and  pin 
themselves to sharp wooden nails(Kazhu Eruthal) to death. If sri sambandar 
fails, he and his 12,000 followers would do the same thing. This kind of 
cruel betting and execution by Both Jainas and Saivites seem to be common in 
those days. It is not known (and worth Researching-who initiated this 
Barbaric Practice)sri Kula chiraiyar prepared thousands of wooden pins(Kazhu 
Maram).sri Sambandar won the bet. He told the Jainas-they need not DIE-it 
would suffice if they apply the Ash on their Fore-head and Body. Some Jainas 
preferred death than changing their religion-voluntarily jumped on the 
pins--in the frenzy some Jainas were forcibly pinned and killed by Saivite 
enthusiasts. Vast Majority applied the Ash on their body and got converted to 
Saivism and escaped death.. There was so much of dearth of Ash- many of them 
applied dust/sand/cowdung  etc. This is how the event is described in the 
book "Thiru Vilaiyadal Puraanam"(Tamil)-First Published by Saiva Siddhaantha 
Kazhagam-Tirunelveli-later by Vaanathi Padhippakam-Madras(now 
Chennai)Chapters 62-63(pages 343-361) Sanskrit version is called "Haalaasya 
Mahaathmiyam" .The book purports to describe 64 Leelas(Thiruvilaiyaadal) 
enacted by Lord Somasundareswara(Siva) in Madurai. But Acharya Sankara  talks 
about 64 "Tantras" of Lord Siva in Soundarya Lahari. Acharya Sankara?s period 
is at least 400-500 years before sri.Sambandar?s period.     




From kekai at JPS.NET  Thu Dec  9 05:07:05 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 21:07:05 -0800
Subject: Brahmins and Dalits (was : Jnanasambandar:)
Message-ID: <161227054319.23782.10238982072610740562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

IreneMaradei wrote:
>
> Love of knowledge
>
> Isn't it a bit naive to say that all brahmins - or "all" of any group of
> people - had a love for knowledge in itself?
>

I have to agree with you, Irene.

Brahmins may have had cultural tendencies toward traditional knowledge.
However, the
same forces that pushed them in this direction would likely have pushed
them away
from "impure" Western education.

>?From my experience, Indian people in general seem to have a wonderful
love of knowledge
regardless of whether they are brahmin or not.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
--
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From GthomGt at CS.COM  Thu Dec  9 02:28:38 1999
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 21:28:38 -0500
Subject: bones and flesh
Message-ID: <161227054357.23782.9689883367153148940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I can't speak for others on this list, but I would welcome a good,
well-informed discussion of the early relations between Munda, Dravidian, and
Indo-Aryan languages.

I am also prepared to entertain Paul Kekai Manansala's ideas, whatever they
may be, about these language families.  Unfortunately, he has demonstrated on
this list, over and over again, that he has no command of basic methods in
linguistics.  And now he proudly aligns himself with Mark Hubey, who likewise
has repeatedly demonstrated, on this list and elsewhere, a foolish disregard
for basic methodology, a methodology which, as Michael Witzel has argued, has
itself repeatedly demonstrated its own reliability over the course of the
last 100 and more years..

A scholar who is so quick to dismiss the old masters [for example, Saussure
on the 'coefficient sonantique'] in order to embrace a clearly incompetent
pseudo-linguist like Hubey, has earned little credibility, as far as I can
see.  He will have to re-gain credibility by displaying basic control over
both the relevant languages and basic methodology.

Paul Kekai Manansala has not done this. He is invited to do so now.

George Thompson




From jehms at KABELFOON.NL  Wed Dec  8 20:34:40 1999
From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 21:34:40 +0100
Subject: Brahmins and Dalits (was : Jnanasambandar:)
Message-ID: <161227054348.23782.13402499355647932644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

nanda chandran wrote:
>
> >'Brahmin Gold' by Prof. Shankar Nadar
>
> Samar please give it a rest. All this Dalitstan stuff is just politically
> motivated and is devoid of any historical or factual value. It just aims to
> shock readers with its preposterous allegations.
>
> For a good background on Dalits and other backward castes - what they were
> and what lead to their present condition - economic and social, read
> Kosambi's works on Indian history. And it can hardly be labelled as biased,
> as the author himself is a Marxist historian.

Good example of an argument ad verecundiam. The author maybe okay, but
this doesn't make his book the final word. BTW Good old Periyar was
politically motivated and no marxist, but I still think his observations
are valuable, because of his sound common sense.
> ______________________________________________________
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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  9 12:56:57 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 04:56:57 -0800
Subject: ThirujnAnasampandar and JainAs
Message-ID: <161227054370.23782.10249120178015787837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>But Acharya Sankara  talks about 64 "Tantras" of Lord Siva in Soundarya
>Lahari. Acharya Sankara?s period is at least 400-500 years before
>sri.Sambandar?s period.

Dear Prof. Rajagopalan,

Any references to read for predating Sankaracharya by 400-500 years
compared to Thirugnanasambandhar? Thanks.

Kind regards,
N. Ganesan



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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  9 13:56:26 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 05:56:26 -0800
Subject: ThirujnAnasampandar and JainAs
Message-ID: <161227054374.23782.3044880263694241289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Somayaji Rajagopala <SSRVJ at AOL.COM> wrote :-

>Mahaathmiyam" .The book purports to describe 64 Leelas(Thiruvilaiyaadal)
>enacted by Lord Somasundareswara(Siva) in Madurai. But Acharya Sankara
>talks
>about 64 "Tantras" of Lord Siva in Soundarya Lahari. Acharya Sankara?s
>period
>is at least 400-500 years before sri.Sambandar?s period.

Note that,

1. The number 64 (16x4) is somewhat of a standard thing, comparable to 108
in religious contexts. Even if it were not so, the connection between 64
tiruviLaiyATal of Siva and the 64 tantras in saundaryalaharI is
non-existent.
2. The relative dating you propose would make either Jnanasambandhar a
contemporary of Ramanuja, or Sankara a contemporary of Nagarjuna, if not
Gautma Buddha himself. Both possibilities are quite incongruous.
3. If anything, surely you must be aware that Sankara's date has been
proposed to be after that of Sambandhar. Re: draviDaSiSu reference in
saundaryalaharI. However, this argument is quite inconclusive, for a number
of reasons.

Vidyasankar

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From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Thu Dec  9 06:25:56 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 06:25:56 +0000
Subject: saraswati civilisation
Message-ID: <161227054353.23782.16549849734311598406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi all,
I have been trying to figure out what language Dominik has used. I think
it means: "you are not welcome to this exclusive club." An synonym in Tamil
may be: ayyayyo... I fondly hope I am wrong.
Regards, Kalyanaraman

Dominik Wujastyk <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK> wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Robert, Eric wrote:
> 
> > Hi all! I am new to this list, and only an amateur in Indology, so
> > please ...
> 
> 
> Aaaargh!
> 
> 
> --
> Dominik Wujastyk
> Founder, INDOLOGY list


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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  9 14:46:46 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 06:46:46 -0800
Subject: bones and flesh
Message-ID: <161227054376.23782.14603029349510492986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. Manansala wrote:
>Reconstruction is assumption based upon pillars which are also
>assumptions. All of these assumptions can and have been attacked.
>From the purely mathematical standpoint, Mark Hubey, a computer
>science professor and mathematican, does a good job over the Net.
>Giving examples of prediction is bogus and cannot be distinguished
>from a lucky guess or simple coincidence. The fact is that you can
>not prove any laws regarding sound changes. You can only hypothesize.


The 'bones and flesh' of Indology work is an intimate knowledge of
Indian texts; Not many places in the world have a variety of writings
as obtained in India at different time depths. Prof. Hubey may not be
an  expert on any Indian language. Some consider Indian languages
essential to theorize about India.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Thu Dec  9 17:00:02 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 09:00:02 -0800
Subject: ThirujnAnasampandar and JainAs
Message-ID: <161227054387.23782.8738238183036269366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Somayaji Rajagopala <SSRVJ at AOL.COM> wrote:

Could you make your effort worthwhile by using better formatting like
indentations and smaller (rather much smaller) paragraphs please?


..
> Mahaathmiyam" .The book purports to describe 64 Leelas(Thiruvilaiyaadal)
> enacted by Lord Somasundareswara(Siva) in Madurai. But Acharya Sankara  talks
>
> about 64 "Tantras" of Lord Siva in Soundarya Lahari. Acharya Sankara?s period
>
> is at least 400-500 years before sri.Sambandar?s period.
If you are referring to the so-called Kaladi Adhi Shankaracharya, you must be
mistaken. Are you asserting that he was extant ca.1-2 century CE, instead of
the standard 8-9th century CE period assigned to him which is a few centuries
after Sambandhar?

Regards,
P. Chandrasekaran.

>

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From GthomGt at CS.COM  Thu Dec  9 15:24:05 1999
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 10:24:05 -0500
Subject: bones and flesh
Message-ID: <161227054379.23782.12655553749913354264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 12/8/99 10:39:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, kekai at JPS.NET
writes:

>
>  The "old masters" in my view were a highly biased bunch of folk who had,
>  to put it mildly, ulterior motives.

First of all, I can't imagine at all what dark motives might have driven
Saussure to posit the existence of such a harmless set of things as sonant
coefficients.  But the important point is that his methodology worked,
regardless of his motives.  He recognized the necessity for the existence of
a set of phonemes in PIE. Confirmation of the real world existence of these
phonemes in a real world language, Hittite, came only after Saussure's death.
 It was a remarkable achievement, don't you think?

>
>  Besides, Hubey makes sense to me mathematically while the
>  pseudo-linguistics of reconstruction does not.

I have watched Mark Hubey demonstrate on a number of scholarly lists that he
does not know the languages that he discusses so vehemently, nor does he know
linguistics.  How can you distrust the reconstructions of a Saussure, who at
least knew the languages he worked with, while trusting in Hubey's
mathematics?  I can sympathize with your distrust of speculative
reconstructions, but who is being more *speculative* here, Saussure or Hubey?

Since the motives of Indologists are tainted in your eyes, I will not
recommend the handbook on historical linguistics written by H.H. Hock.
Instead, I'll recommeend one written by a person who has no interest in
Indology whatsoever, and who also happens to be very good and very clear.
See R. L. Trask's *Historical Linguistics* [1996]. Of course, you should know
that Trask is familiar with Hubey's linguistics, and has persuasively
disposed of it on other scholarly lists.

On the other hand, perhaps you can recommend something to the list that sets
forth the principles that you work with in your comparisons of Munda,
Dravidian, and Indo-Aryan.

In any case, if we cannot find some common ground from which to begin our
discussions, they will continue to be fruitless.

Best wishes,

George Thompson
>




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  9 19:03:26 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 11:03:26 -0800
Subject: Brahmins and Dalits (was : Jnanasambandar:)
Message-ID: <161227054385.23782.2153161019149180737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I don't think nobody in their right mind would question the fact that
>historically dalits had the bad deal, and the brahmins were privileged by
>the caste rules they helped to formulate and preserve.

Ofcourse, nobody's denying that dalits are at a disadvantage now.
But the question is what's the reason for their status? Everybody
- the Vedic ideal, the caste system, the brahmins, the landed classes
and even the dalits themselves - is involved in this deal. But how
much of it can be attributed :

1. directly to Vedic ideal and its caste system,
2. indirectly to Vedic ideal and its caste system,
3. to brahminism (which is but the practical implementation of the
   Vedic ideal and its caste system),
4. to the landed classes and
5. to the dalits themselves.

In the current political scenario, the Vedic ideal and its caste
system is identified with brahminism and the whole blame is thrust on
them. The primary reason for this is that the brahmins themselves
are a peaceful lot and will never raise a finger to protest against
it. The orthodox brahmin will ignore it and concentrate on the
preservation of dharma, while the modern brahmin flees abroad.

The landed classes, as long as they still possess the land don't care
what's going on. The political classes use the opportunities created
by the denial of the brahmins in the governmental educational and job
sector - to satisfy the dalits and other backward classes - and in
that process get their votes. Ofcourse, by such political gimmicks, only a
small minority of the "deprived" classes actually benefit, while the
majority of them are still sunk in poverty with no sign of relief.

And the big question - what's all this got to do with Indology?

The root of this whole problem lies in Indology - when I did the apportion
of blame for the current caste mess, I missed out the most important culprit
- the Christian missionary - who used this tool called Indology to
misinterpret the Vedic ideal and the caste system to discredit Hinduism, so
that he could contribute to the "harvest" of Souls to his Lord and savior.

As they say in Tamil, "A thorn has to be removed by a thorn". The problem
created by Indology has to be solved by Indology itself.


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From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Thu Dec  9 11:04:43 1999
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 11:04:43 +0000
Subject: Transliteration fonts: "extra" characters
Message-ID: <161227054366.23782.4797068650132626515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A lot of people use my Norman and CSX+ fonts. Each of these encodings
gives access to a wide range of accented characters useful for work with
Indian languages in transliteration, but from time to time I receive a
request for some special "extra" character.

I have decided to meet these requests by creating a set of supplementary
fonts. These will use the same underlying typefaces as the existing ones,
so that printed output will not show any discontinuities. To emphasise
their supplementary nature, they will be called CARB, standing for
Character/Accent RagBag. The idea is that you would do most of your typing
in, say, Times Norman or Palatino CSX+, but that when you needed
z-underdot-macron-acute you would switch to Times CARB or Palatino CARB.
The CARB fonts will retain the normal ASCII characters in the first 128
slots, so it would be possible to continue typing "normal" text in them,
but to access the more conventional accented characters you would have to
switch back to Norman/CSX+.

If there are special characters that you would like to be able to use,
please let me know. When I have a list of people's requirements, I intend
to release a set of fonts in perhaps a week or ten days from now.
(Initially they will be available for PC only: sorry, Mac users.) From
time to time, as I receive further requests, I will make new versions; but
it is obviously sensible to try to accommodate as many requirements as
possible in the first release.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From Eric.Robert at UM.BE  Thu Dec  9 10:18:18 1999
From: Eric.Robert at UM.BE (Robert, Eric)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 11:18:18 +0100
Subject: excuses
Message-ID: <161227054362.23782.807636230149108061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To all:

I got the address of the indology mailing-list on the Sanskrit document
page, and it is not mentioned there that the list is strictly reserved to
professional. I am thus sorry about my undesirable post. I noticed this fact
in a personal mail to Mr Wujastyk, together with other remark. Again, sorry
for the disturbance!
With regards

Eric Robert




From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE  Thu Dec  9 10:38:57 1999
From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 11:38:57 +0100
Subject: Fw: astronomy
Message-ID: <161227054364.23782.1488960190806560935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I entirely agree with Prof. Witzel that we have better things to do than
look up things which interested list members can easily find for themselves,
or than answering all too elementary questions.  But the question of the
date of the Vedanga Jyotisha is not below a professional indologist's
dignity: it is fundamental, consequential and as yet not the object of a
consensus.

That a pre-Iron Age text cannot be in shloka form, is a circular argument,
based on a low chronology of known shloka texts.  Maybe even the
Shatapatha Brahmana is a counter-example: if its astronomical reference (to
ca. 2400 BC) can be a reminiscence, conversely its iron references can be
part of
interpolations.  While the existence of astro-chronological reminiscences or
antedatations remains conjectural, no philologist will deny that there are
plenty of well-attested cases
of later interpolation into older texts.  But that is not the point I want
to pursue here.  The Vedanga Jyotisha would, by its astro-chronological
information, be dated to the dawn of the Iron Age (ca. 1300 BC) anyway.

The really challenging point is: so far, all astro-chronological information
in Vedic literature, indirect and obscure as well as direct and explicit,
points consistently to a higher chronology.  That is why astronomers both
Western (since
the late 18th cent., e.g. John Playfair 1790) and Indian have attributed a
high chronology to Vedic
literature.  To my knowledge, nobody has ever countered that by pointing out
even one astro-chronological hint in the texts confirming a low chronology.
The answer is invariably to deny the astro-chronological information, either
to deny that it has anything to do with astronomy (possible in some cases,
as the astronomical terminology is mostly terms with ordinary meanings to
which a technical meaning is given by Vedic astronomy), or to deny, with
Romila Thapar and our friend Michael Witzel, that this information pertains
to the time when the text was composed.  But this implies that the whole
Vedic literature has a bizarre tendency to systematically antedate itself
(as if in a grand conspiracy to fool future indologists), and to talk about
ancient stellar configurations all while disregarding the actual
configurations visible to the authors themselves.  This strange tendency is
not in
evidence in Hindu astronomical writings which have been firmly dated, like
Aryabhatta's.

Now, this is where the Vedanga Jyotisha comes in.  This is a manual for
priests concerning the astronomical aspects of their work.  Obviously, it
deals with the actual stellar configurations, for it tells its users where
in the sky they should look to see if the time has come for this or that
ritual.  Moreover, it does not deal in poetic metaphors, but in technical
astronomy.  In verse 6, it locates the winter solstice at ca. 23?20 of
sidereal Capricorn, 47? from its present position.  Taking into account the
precession of 1? in 71 years, this indicates a date of ca. 3337 years ago.
An inaccuracy of 1? makes a difference of 71 years less *or more*, but given
the nature of the text, it is likely that Lagadha tried to be precise.

Of course my argument is not "monolateral".  I have written on
textual, linguistic, astronomical and other aspects of the problem.  If I
have neglected some aspects, well, I can't do everything and I welcome new
input from different disciplines.  But I do at least attempt to posit things
which do not fly in the face of established evidence.  Now, in
this case, though the astro-chronological aspect of the VJ is only one
aspect, it should count for more than nothing, and in an astronomical text
it is easily the most important aspect.  If it is monolateral to study only
the contents of an astronomical text, I should think it even more harmfully
monolateral to study only the philological aspect of the text while
disregarding its explicit contents.  Those who claim a VJ date which flies
in the face of the text's own astro-chronological information should explain
why Lagadha gave his readers wrong information, and that on a topic which
was quite elementary and on which any of his colleagues could have shown him
to be wrong merely by pointing at the sky.

For all I know, the philological argument is that the VJ has been written in
a form and language which are clearly post-Vedic, part of the classical
Sanskrit tradition in which every high-born youngster was trained during,
well, the classical period.  I see no reason to deny that post-Vedic date
for the VJ.  But it follows that the classical and post-Vedic Sanskrit
tradition has to be dated as being in existence no later than the time
indicated by the VJ solstice.  Which is apparently difficult to reconcile
with allotting to the Rg-Veda a date in the same time-bracket.  Ergo, the
date of
the Rg-Veda will have to be moved deeper into the past.

Incidentally, dating the VJ to the first centuries AD, as Dr. N. Ganesan
proposes, conflicts not only with the astronomical evidence, but also with
the well-known fact that post-Alexandrine astronomical and astrological
texts have borrowed many terms and concepts from Hellenistic astronomy.
These are not in evidence in the VJ.

Yours sincerely,
Koenraad Elst
http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/




From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Thu Dec  9 11:41:47 1999
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 12:41:47 +0100
Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search (the trouble with ali)
In-Reply-To: <19991126160029.10686.rocketmail@web1405.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227054368.23782.3150718608297181451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 26 Nov 99, at 8:00, Jan Brzezinski wrote:
> [...]. Now can anyone help with vaa.na? What makes an "arrow"
> characteristic of a sevakaadhama?

Sorry for responding so late. My guess regarding this is: In
"Sriihar.sa?s Nai.sadhacarita 12.98 arrows ("sara) are compared
with enemies, both of which, once let loose (mukta), have no
return (na punarniv.rtti.h). By analogy, perhaps, bow and arrows
could be compared with a master and his servants. Moreover,
an arrow can be called tyaktagu.na.h which can be understood
as a "sle.sa or double entendre: ``something which has been
released from the [bow-]string (gu.na)" or ``somebody who has
abandoned [his] virtues (gu.na)" (cf. Jalha.na?s
Suuktimuktaavalii 8.24). Consquently, a bow might be called a
gu.navat (``possessing a string" or ``possessing virtues"), which
could evoke the idea, that an arrow which is being shot is leaving
his ``virtuous master".
Further: in the "Si.supaalavadha 9.41 (and elsewhere) the word
"siliimukha is used in the sense of ``bee" and ``arrow" in a
"sle.sa. Therefore, it is perhaps not by chance that in your stanza
bees and arrows are mentioned side by side.

With best regards,
Roland Steiner




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Thu Dec  9 13:25:38 1999
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 14:25:38 +0100
Subject: Macintosh font query
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9912091032040.643-100000@pune.oriental.cam.a c.uk>
Message-ID: <161227054372.23782.1551743286017728979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

With apologies if this question has already been dealt with in the recent
fonts thread (which, unfortunately, I didn't follow): A colleague recently
asked whether I knew of any fonts which --
        (a) work with Macintosh computers;
        (b) contain the diacritics necessary to transliterate classical Sanskrit;
        (c) still retain the Scandinavian diacritics (primarily ?, ?, ?) in their
standard positions (so that they will work with a normal Scandinavian
keyboard); and
        (d) look nice. (This last point is admittedly a subjective one, but some
Mac fonts I've seen have decidedly ugly features, like a macron placed
above the dot of a long 'i' rather than replacing it, etc.)

Being a PC user myself, I couldn't really help. If someone else can, please
email me privately at <martin.gansten at teol.lu.se> (unless you deem the
question to be of public interest).

Thanks in advance,
Martin Gansten




From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM  Thu Dec  9 15:12:39 1999
From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dr Anthony P Stone)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 15:12:39 +0000
Subject: Transliteration problems at the Perso-Arabic/Indic interface
Message-ID: <161227054377.23782.7323616434250272595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In connection with the development of a new international standard for the
transliteration of Indic scripts into Latin characters, there is a problem about
the best way to deal with modified Indic characters representing Perso-Arabic
[P-A] letters.

In Devanagari and Bengali script, five nuqta characters are relatively well
known, but there also exist schemes using up to 14 modified characters for P-A
letters.   These schemes use a variety of graphic forms, and in some schemes the
distinction between certain P-A characters is lost.

I should like to propose a simple solution, in which the transliteration of a
modified Indic character depends largely on the original P-A character.
Because an adequate discussion requires non-Latin scripts, I have put a summary
on the Web at

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/trliface.htm

Doubts have been expressed as to whether it is appropriate for the new
international standard to deal with more than the usual five nuqta characters.
So I should be glad to receive a personal email from anyone who actually feels
the *need* for a solution such as I have proposed.   Other comments will also be
welcome.

Tony Stone

Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader, ISO/TC46/SC2/WG12 Transliteration of Indic
scripts.




From kekai at JPS.NET  Thu Dec  9 23:32:12 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 15:32:12 -0800
Subject: bones and flesh
Message-ID: <161227054351.23782.1394921763915229522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel wrote:
>
> At 9:24 -0800 12/6/99, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
> >Michael Witzel wrote:
>
> >
> >That seems difficult to believe, but I'm not one for reconstruction
> >anyway.
>
> A good theory PREDICTS. Comparative historical linguistics have predicted,
> before texts were found with the predicted characteristics ,
> eg. Archaic Greek (Mycenean) *kw  or IE  larungeals (h1-3), at lest one
> type of which was subsequently found in Hittite pehur = Greek puur = fire.
>
> Anybody who cannot see that this theory works better keeps quiet. We had
> that sort of discussion in teh Thirties & Forties. They are on teh dustbin
> of  history by now.
>

Reconstruction is assumption based upon pillars which are also
assumptions.
All of these assumptions can and have been attacked. From the purely
mathematical
standpoint, Mark Hubey, a computer science professor and mathematican,
does a
good job over the Net. Giving examples of prediction is bogus and cannot
be
distinguished from a lucky guess or simple coincidence. The fact is that
you can
not prove any laws regarding sound changes. You can only hypothesize.

> Or one should join one of the  'anything goes' lists. Opinions are not
> required here, arguments are. The rejection of reconstruction makes most of
> the following arguments obsolete.
>

Not really.

> >Munda has retroflexion in its infix system
>
> which ones? I do not know of any -D- infix...

I thought you said in your last post that Munda "D" could be
reconstructed?

Anyway, there are plenty of examples such as the past verbal infix -R-.
I'd have to order some books through interlibrary loan to see if there
is
a -D- infix.

>
> >Generally speaking, I would agree with SK Chatterji that people
> >tend to borrow words or languages but retain their own sound systems.
>
> It seems to look like that frequently but proof is another matter. Easily,
> circular arguments...
>

There is no proof that be can offered in any of these arguments.
However, I can
predict fairly well the sound systems of Indians who are taught English
or practically
any other language. So it is a pretty good theory, right?

> >This was the reason the latter gave for retroflexion in "Aryan"
> >languages (Munda Dravidian people speaking foreign language).
>
> This confuses ethnicity (or even 'race'??) with language. A cardinal sin
> these days.
>

No, it is a reasonable explanation given certain preconceptions.


> Please show 'native' infixes. I have not seen any -D-. Native vocab. would
> involve words built from reconstructed Munda (or preferably even
> Austro-Asiatic) roots...
>


Well, the most conservative elements in language even according to
Western linguistic
theory are grammatical particles and affixes and basic vocabulary.

Thus, we can see even a morphophonemic use of retroflexion in which the
final D of
intensive bases becomes R before the future suffix. There is also the
intensive suffix
-goD. The plural suffix -T0; present negative prefix in Ton -- aRi. The
past suffix -teDa, Tee,
etc., and many other such affixes.

Third person and demonstrative pronouns:

        -De, -aDi, Juang;
        Deh, De?, Mon;
        eTey, Nahali;
        eTa, Ho;
        hinkaR, Mundari;
        Di, Curu;
        Do, Som;


There are also some second person pronouns like Juang amDe, amanDe,
"you" and amDa, amaDa "your."

If you took the top few hundred Swadesh terms, I'm willing to bet well
over half have retroflex
sounds including words like haRa "man, koNDu "small", ukaR "this
person", koRa "boy," etc.


> >Well,  my point is the North-South division of retroflexion.
> >If we subscribe to the theory that Dravidian was "pushed" southward
> >by invading Indo-Aryans, when did they lose (or did northerners gain?)
> >initial retroflexion?
>
> You do not need any 'pushing' Aryans, there are many other models of
> language transfer.
> And were do you get your 'initial retroflexion'? On what basis? This is
> just an empty assumption.
>

What do you mean by the last sentence? Are you saying that Munda and
"Aryan" languages
do not have initial retroflex consonants?

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  9 23:50:02 1999
From: namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM (Namrata Bose)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 15:50:02 -0800
Subject: Brahmins and Dalits (To Irene)
Message-ID: <161227054389.23782.6519879061752436112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Irene,

As a historian, I will agree that while the Brahmins have been the
ideologues of the social inequalities in our society, the other communities
have been the main perpetrators of crimes against the SC/ST and OBC's. Manu
himself was a Kshatriya. In modern India, the worst crimes against low caste
people are done by the OBC's (Yadavs, Kurmis), Harijans who have elevated
themselves and other Non Brahmin communities like the jats. And during the
traumatic Islamic and Portuguese (Roman Catholic) rule in India or parts of
India, it is the Brahmins who bore the brunt.

Having said all this, I want to emphasise that most so called 'Dalit
Movements' are nothing but a facade of rabid fanatical Islamic, Christian or
Marxist individuals. As an example, I reqest you to go the 'Links' section
of the website pointed out by Samar Abbas

http://dalitstan.org

You will see an over-abundance of Christian links. This proves that the
website is sponsored (if not set up) by Hindu hating Christians. And it is
not a mere coincidence that Samar Abbas is a MUSLIM. And a Jehadi Muslim.
Such fanatical people do not care if India splits into many chunks. As long
as they can win some of these chunks for Marx, Christ or Allah.

Now my own comments on your comments--

>From: IreneMaradei <tancredi at OTENET.GR>




>      It is like my (non-brahmin) lady friend in Delhi- a university
>lecturer, and very intelligent woman- who said she doesn't let her maid do
>some things in her house because "she lives in a dirty area and is possibly
>dirty, because she doesn't have access to clean water and probably she will
>not want to spend on soap". "Then why don't you have her take a bath  as
>soon as she comes,and put on a clean sari specially reserved for when she's
>in your house?"

I do not think many rich Americans will allow others to use their bathrooms

. Let's face it, caste
>prejudices in India are very much alive even today, and have little to do
>with money.

True. But which society is free of prejudices? In Islamic societies,
inequality of human beings is ordained from Heaven.

I agree with everything else that was penned by you

Namrata Bose

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From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM  Fri Dec 10 02:20:11 1999
From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 18:20:11 -0800
Subject: Another (!) Subhashita search (the trouble with ali)
Message-ID: <161227054401.23782.7993099144965428458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

That deserves a vah vah!

--- Roland Steiner <steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE>
wrote:
> On 26 Nov 99, at 8:00, Jan Brzezinski wrote:
> > [...]. Now can anyone help with vaa.na? What makes
> an "arrow"
> > characteristic of a sevakaadhama?
>
> Sorry for responding so late. My guess regarding
> this is: In
> "Sriihar.sa?s Nai.sadhacarita 12.98 arrows ("sara)
> are compared
> with enemies, both of which, once let loose (mukta),
> have no
> return (na punarniv.rtti.h). By analogy, perhaps,
> bow and arrows
> could be compared with a master and his servants.
> Moreover,
> an arrow can be called tyaktagu.na.h which can be
> understood
> as a "sle.sa or double entendre: ``something which
> has been
> released from the [bow-]string (gu.na)" or
> ``somebody who has
> abandoned [his] virtues (gu.na)" (cf. Jalha.na?s
> Suuktimuktaavalii 8.24). Consquently, a bow might be
> called a
> gu.navat (``possessing a string" or ``possessing
> virtues"), which
> could evoke the idea, that an arrow which is being
> shot is leaving
> his ``virtuous master".
> Further: in the "Si.supaalavadha 9.41 (and
> elsewhere) the word
> "siliimukha is used in the sense of ``bee" and
> ``arrow" in a
> "sle.sa. Therefore, it is perhaps not by chance that
> in your stanza
> bees and arrows are mentioned side by side.
>
> With best regards,
> Roland Steiner
>

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From kekai at JPS.NET  Fri Dec 10 03:39:44 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 19:39:44 -0800
Subject: bones and flesh
Message-ID: <161227054360.23782.56198972612479549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson wrote:
>
>
> A scholar who is so quick to dismiss the old masters [for example, Saussure
> on the 'coefficient sonantique'] in order to embrace a clearly incompetent
> pseudo-linguist like Hubey, has earned little credibility, as far as I can
> see.

The "old masters" in my view were a highly biased bunch of folk who had,
to put it mildly, ulterior motives.

Besides, Hubey makes sense to me mathematically while the
pseudo-linguistics of reconstruction does not.

BTW, is Hubey out there?

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From n.rao at RZ.UNI-SB.DE  Thu Dec  9 19:01:51 1999
From: n.rao at RZ.UNI-SB.DE (Narahari Rao)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 20:01:51 +0100
Subject: Jnanasambandar: Nanda Chandran's question
In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD013F3B23@SMGMAIL>
Message-ID: <161227054383.23782.9316210413114128155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 17:30 07.12.1999 -0500, you wrote:
>... brahmins were responsible for instituting cruel and unfair traditions.
>
How much scholarly interest is there amongst Indologists on the nature  and
origin of 'jAti'? Can anyone suggest a book of historical-empirical study
of jAti? Please, not that variety that quotes Manu or some obscure text and
speaks of 'Caste System'.
Similarly I would like to have a suggestion of a book on current state of
sociological research on the phenomenon of jAti.
Thanks in advance.
Narahari




From GthomGt at CS.COM  Fri Dec 10 01:16:53 1999
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 20:16:53 -0500
Subject: bones and flesh
Message-ID: <161227054393.23782.17120986253176413053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My thanks to PK Manansala for articulating his position with regard to
Hubey's mathermatical linguistics, as well as  for pointing out his interest
in Greenberg and Ruhlen, et al.

At this point, I will have to withdraw from the discussion, since I have
little interest in the kind of linguistics performed by such scholars.  While
I do have some interest in Nostratic theory and long range comparisins, I
confess that, almost as much as PKM distrusts my motives as an Indologist, I
distrust the methods of scholars who rely more on word-lists and
dictionary-searches than on actual knowledge of the relevant languages.

Vishal Agarwal and Koenrad Elst may dislike what I say about the Rgveda, but
it cannot be denied that at least I pay attention to it.  In fact, I take
great pleasure in studying that text, and in wrestling with the difficulties
which it presents to our understanding.

In short, I prefer philology.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU  Fri Dec 10 03:27:36 1999
From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 21:27:36 -0600
Subject: bones, flesh and "science"
In-Reply-To: <38513666.853BA744@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227054397.23782.1939488077202294498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:

> If the linguist feeds a mathematician things as constants or things
> similar to constants which are really assumptions then you get linguists
> using bad methods.

   I think the last part of this should read: "...then you get
*mathematicians* using bad data.  I've heard scientists defend their
methods (when facing bizarre results) by saying "Garbage in, garbage
out."  It seems to me that a mathematician who values the results of the
method without being willing to assess the quality of the input is on
shaky ground. I'm familiar with the methods Thompson puts to good
use in assessing Vedic input. I'm curious about Manansala's, since I know
so little about it.

Tim Cahill




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Fri Dec 10 00:10:51 1999
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 00:10:51 +0000
Subject: Transliteration fonts: "extra" characters
Message-ID: <161227054391.23782.15993887109870390158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr Smith wrote:
> If there are special characters that you would like to be able to
use,
> please let me know. When I have a list of people's requirements, I
intend
> to release a set of fonts in perhaps a week or ten days from now.
> (Initially they will be available for PC only: sorry, Mac users.)
From
> time to time, as I receive further requests, I will make new
versions; but
> it is obviously sensible to try to accommodate as many requirements
as
> possible in the first release.

This is excellent news.  At times I work with combinations of
Sanskrit, Chinese, Tibetan and Mongolian in the same text so I often
need to combine other romanized Asian languages with Sanskrit but
always have problems with customized fonts because of the characters
they overwrite.  In particular, I wonder whether a full set of tone
marks etc for Pinyin could be included/retained:

a/i/u/e/o + acute
a/i/u/e/o + grave
a/i/u/e/o + macron (part covered by Skt)
a/i/u/e/o + inverted circumflex (I don't know the correct term for
this)
u + umlaut + each of the above four.

Also it would be nice to have a lower-case Greek gamma included as it
is standard for academic use in Mongolian -- saves cutting and pasting
etc.

I realize that people like me are in a small minority but .....

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 10 13:04:27 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 05:04:27 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054405.23782.11055902311868385115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Thiru. LS,

Thanks for pointing out the "sky garment" in Parpola.
Tamil has "tAr" for both a) flower mAlA and b) weapon, army;
tAr-kANittal = bestowing authority/title (like kaN-kANi).
tAr =garland/weapon may fit the priest-king's dress(tArpya).

Dr. Witzel in his Sep. '99 EJVS paper has pointed out several
k and s/z word-initial variants in foreign loan words:
eg., kambala/zambara, kabara/zabara, kIsta/zISTa, kimIdin/zimIdaa,
kambu/zambu, kirAta/cilAta, etc., Dr. Southworth has suggested
Dr. *kIndu > sindhu river (Erdosy, 1994).

If this k/s/z alterations are admissible, then several words
can be looked into. As a pointer, I talked of two words.
1) dr. kalkoTa > zarkoTa nAgam (karkoTa dynasty, 600 AD)
and 2) kATi > zATI. For zATI, tamil kAzh, kAzhakam must also be
looked into. Anyway, these are just possibilities if the
k => z/s changes are ok in Sanskrit.

Thanks & Warm regards,
N. Ganesan



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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 10 13:25:42 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 05:25:42 -0800
Subject: ThirujnAnasampandar and JainAs
Message-ID: <161227054406.23782.7667160981143959951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you for citing a Tamizh source on Sri Sundara Pandya. Since I have
been collecting information on pre-Samkara vedantins, I always look forward
to information from Tamizh texts.

However, Sundara Pandya could not have been after Bhagvatpada Samkaracharya
because the latter quotes the former. At the end of his Adhyasa Bhashya
(Brahamsutra 1.1.4), he quotes 2 verses which are said to be the compisition
of Sundara Pandya by
1. Narasimhasvarupa in the Prabodhaparisodhini tika on the Pancapaadika of
Sri Padmapada
2. Kalpataru of Amalananda

These two verses and 1 more are cited by Madhava in his commentary on the
Suta Samhita of the Skanda Purana as from the Varttika of Sundara Pandya.

One of these verses are identified as the composition of Sri Sundara Pandya
by some Purva Mimamsa works as well. Plus, the identity of the king
'converted' by Sri Jnanasambandhar as being Sri Sundara Pandya is doubted by
some. Please read Post # 471 in June 1999 archives for details and
references.

Regards

Vishal

----Original Message Follows----
From: Somayaji Rajagopala <SSRVJ at AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ThirujnAnasampandar and JainAs
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:03:36 EST

Acharya Sankara?s period
is at least 400-500 years before sri.Sambandar?s period.

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 10 16:35:15 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 08:35:15 -0800
Subject: bones, flesh and "science"
Message-ID: <161227054413.23782.17602852315458024604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Dynamics, Chaotic systems and Strange attractors, etc., happen
with even a slight change in the initial conditions. Aren't the
language change within a populace highly nonlinear and complex?
Always, scientists try to linearize a nonlinear system within
an operational range and make predictions. Sound change law
may be one such device to handle language change.

Dixon, The rise and fall of languages, mentions Nostratic theory's
problems. Is it correct that not even a few academics of Historical
Linguistics value Nostratic theory much? Only dictionary comparisons,
but not much progress in grammar.

Regards,
N. Ganesan



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From kekai at JPS.NET  Fri Dec 10 17:20:38 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 09:20:38 -0800
Subject: bones and flesh
Message-ID: <161227054382.23782.8822950288799160114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Thompson wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/8/99 10:39:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, kekai at JPS.NET
> writes:
>
> >
>
> >  Besides, Hubey makes sense to me mathematically while the
> >  pseudo-linguistics of reconstruction does not.
>
> I have watched Mark Hubey demonstrate on a number of scholarly lists that he
> does not know the languages that he discusses so vehemently, nor does he know
> linguistics.  How can you distrust the reconstructions of a Saussure, who at
> least knew the languages he worked with, while trusting in Hubey's
> mathematics?  I can sympathize with your distrust of speculative
> reconstructions, but who is being more *speculative* here, Saussure or Hubey?
>

It is not required to 'know languages' in order to analyze the
mathematical
methods used in linguistics. Mathematicians apply their field to all
types of
other fields in which they have limited knowledge.  What they need to
know are the
various variables, etc. that they have to work with.

If the linguist feeds a mathematician things as constants or things
similar to
constants which are really assumptions then you get linguists using bad
methods.

I should note that many linguists today do not use reconstruction or use
it sparingly
including Greenberg, Ruhlen and many of the Nostraticists.

However, if you have problems with some of Hubey's arguments, many of
them use the same
logic as those posed by Ringe (in his attacks on Greenberg). Maybe you
could identify what
specific problems you have with his assertions?

Also, give me a "proof" on any sound change law. I note that observation
is *not* accepted as
a valid proof on this list and probably rightfully so.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

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From SSRVJ at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 10 14:55:13 1999
From: SSRVJ at AOL.COM (Somayaji Rajagopala)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 09:55:13 -0500
Subject: ThirujnAnasampandar and JainAs
Message-ID: <161227054410.23782.12631252694283523980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 12/9/99 8:57:36 AM EST, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

<< Sankara's date has been
 proposed to be after that of Sambandhar. Re: draviDaSiSu reference in
 saundaryalaharI.  >>
(1)The relative datings -I shall discuss after getting some clarifications
from India.--(2)There is one and only verse (Verse 75) of 100 verses in
"Soundarya Lahari" where the word"draviaDaSiSu" is used. "Dayaavathaya
Dattham Dravidasisu-Raasvaadhya Thava yath"(I have NOT used Itaran-or
Harvard-Kyoto conventions of writing Nagari Libhi in Roman letters-at my age
it is difficult for me to learn all that-kindly excuse).The editor of Lifco
Publications and "Anna" -editor of Sri.Ramakrishna Publications-have not
translated the word draviDaSiSu as sri Gjnaana Sambhandar.They have
translated "draviDaSiSu" as sri.Sankara himself-and I respect their views(3)
Sri Chandrasekerendra Saraswathi (Paramaacharya of Kanchi Matam)has stated
that the word "dravida" denotes South India in general(Tamilnadu in
Particular) and the word "Gauda"-North India in general and Bengal in
particular.He feels they are topographical nomenclatures(4) In West Godavari
district (in Andra Pradesh)there is a Brahmin sub-sect  "Dumma
Dravidas"-there is another sub-sect "--------Dravidas'(I forgot the prefix)
in Berhampur District of Orissa.Even one cricket player is a "Dravid"- so
sri.Sankara hailing from Kaladi(Kerala) can very well be called a "Dravida'
.In the particular line of Soundarya Lahari there is no special connotation
to beleive that the word should denote to sri.Sambandar.(4) I do not know
whether you refer to the Verse "DraviDaSiSu Bhuktha Kseera Shesham Bhavaanme"
 of Mooka Panca Dasi. sri.Mooka's period is much later to sri.Sankara. There
the connotation "Bhuktha Kseera Shesham" may be taken as evidence that
draviDaSiSu may denote sri.Sambandar.Anyhow I don't have any dogmas-I am
always willing to correct myself-I only feel the evidences are not
sufficient-Dr.S.S.Rajagopalan.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 10 19:07:30 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 11:07:30 -0800
Subject: ThirujnAnasampandar and JainAs
Message-ID: <161227054414.23782.8792616125939414437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Somayaji Rajagopala <SSRVJ at AOL.COM> wrote:

>(2)There is one and only verse (Verse 75) of 100 verses in
>"Soundarya Lahari" where the word"draviaDaSiSu" is used. "Dayaavathaya
>Dattham Dravidasisu-Raasvaadhya Thava yath"(I have NOT used Itaran-or
>Harvard-Kyoto conventions of writing Nagari Libhi in Roman letters-at my
>age
>it is difficult for me to learn all that-kindly excuse).The editor of Lifco
>Publications and "Anna" -editor of Sri.Ramakrishna Publications-have not
>translated the word draviDaSiSu as sri Gjnaana Sambhandar.They have
>translated "draviDaSiSu" as sri.Sankara himself-and I respect their views.

Dear Sir,

I am just pointing out that an interpretation of Saundaryalahari, making
draviDaSiSu = Jnanasambandhar has been put forward in the past. For various
reasons, I don't particularly believe that this is strong evidence one way
or the other. In this context, it is immaterial whether Dravida refers only
to Tamil land or to all of South India. It is not relevant to bring the
Mukapancasati into this discussion, as that is a text dating from the
15th-16th century. Finally, as the attribution of the Saundaryalahari to
Sankaracharya can be (and has been) doubted by critical scholarship, it is
also immaterial what the contemporary Sankaracharyas say about this, however
authoritative their words may be to followers.

The crux of the matter is that Sankaracharya's date can be safely assigned
to around 700 CE. The latest date that has been proposed is 788 CE, based on
some traditional references. None of the earlier dates proposed, from 500
BCE to 500 CE, can be supported with proper evidence. It is very popular
nowadays to claim that Sankaracharya lived in 500 BCE. The objection that
this is actually the period of Gautama Buddha is supposedly answered by
claiming the Buddha's date to be 1800 BCE. Proponents of such views will
have to first convincingly rewrite all of Indian history. Indeed, it has
been pointed out that according to available evidence, Buddha's date should
be brought down to nearer 400 BCE than 500 BCE. So long as there is no
earth-shattering evidence to disprove this, no scholar can be convinced that
Buddha lived in 1800 BCE and that Sankaracharya lived in 500 BCE. So we are
back to some period near 700 CE as the most probable date for Sankaracharya.
All I wish to state is that Jnanasambandhar could not have lived as late as
1100 CE. I am curious to know how you arrive at your relative dating that
places Sankaracharya 400 years before Jnanasambandha.

Vidyasankar

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From tancredi at OTENET.GR  Fri Dec 10 09:20:08 1999
From: tancredi at OTENET.GR (IreneMaradei)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 11:20:08 +0200
Subject: Brahmins and Dalits (To Irene)
Message-ID: <161227054403.23782.6572584533918304474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear N. Bose,
Thank you for your comments.
Unfortunately, I have been strongly reprimanded ( in a private mail) by a
list member because a.I am not an Indologist, and the list is only for
Indologists (in this he was right), and b. I have written about a general
interest subject ( although the subject was certainly not started by me, nor
ended after me). Therefore I cannot reply to you, at least not here,
although I would love to. Maybe privately, if you wish.

Best regards,
Irene




From kaykay at GIASBMA.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Dec 10 12:22:39 1999
From: kaykay at GIASBMA.VSNL.NET.IN (K.KRISHNAMURTHY)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 12:22:39 +0000
Subject: Brahmins and Dalits (was : Jnanasambandar:)
In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD013F3B26@SMGMAIL>
Message-ID: <161227054399.23782.9374022582418716500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

   Re: the ongoing discussion on "brahmins and dalits" why not we make
the brahmins the whipping boy for all ills that confronts us instead
mere society related problems.Afterall there has got to be a whipping boy
the brahmins can very well endure and enjoy it.
   I'm reminded of a recent episode in our history in this connection.
As for the Babri Masjit demolition,we know the entire Saffron brigade
(actually Yellow) feins ignorance of the same.Not a single General of the
brigade has come forward to own up the same.So, who was responsible
the incident? Of course, the Congress party -because they have apoligised
for the crime!
Krish




From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE  Fri Dec 10 14:03:41 1999
From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 15:03:41 +0100
Subject: [q] Seeking K.S. Diehl's address
Message-ID: <161227054409.23782.4793334410438379690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could someone please help me with Katherine Smith Diehl's E-mail or Snailmail
address! Thanks in advance.

Regards,                        --Sreenivas

--
E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Es ist nicht gesagt, dass es "besser" wird, wenn es anders wird.
Wenn es aber besser werden soll, muss es "anders" werden.
                                --Georg Christoph Lichtenberg




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 10 23:38:27 1999
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 15:38:27 -0800
Subject: dakinis
Message-ID: <161227054416.23782.14245198951453078121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

    Apart from the Daakini of Cilappathikaram, consideration
    can be given that the following words can arise naturally from
    the sounds of drums. Not necessarily any particular language
    group!

------------------------------
4.    Traditionally, the derivation of ".daakinii" is supposed to be
.dii (to fly) but this is obviously problematic.  In any case the term
is not IE / Sanskritic in origin.  If we look at words used for witch
/ shaman / drumming / summoning is NE Indian languages we see:

BENGALI
.daaka - (vb):  shout, call aloud, send for.
.daak[a]:   a shout, a loud call.
.daaka:   a male shaman, occult practitioner
.daakinii:  a female shaman, occult practitioner
.daa'nka:  an expert in occult practice
.daa'nkaa:  i) a type of drum; ii) the drum beating announcing a
challenge from an occult practitioner.
Etymological Dictionary of Bengali (Sukumar Sen)

ORIYA
.daaka:   1.  a sorcerer  2. loud sound, roaring some, call, summons
.daaki:   hourglass-shaped drum
.daakiba:  (vb) to call, to summon, to invite, to shout
.daakinii:   a sorceress, a witch
.daa'nkinii:   a sorceress, a witch
.daa'nkunii:   a sorceress, witch
.daa'nkenii:  a sorceress, a witch

HO
.da.mri:   wizard
.da.mri era:   witch

SANTALI
.dan:    witch

The root of the word is thus likely to be ".dam" with a IE suffix.
It is probably to be linked also with the ".domba" caste who were
drummers, and with ".damaru", ".damari" etc.
I initially though the nasal in some forms of ".daakinii" above might
be prosthetic but it is actually characteristic of Austroasiatic
languages and is usualy dropped when loan-words .   Paul Manansala
also kindly provided me with a list of possibly cognate Austronesian
words which hint at links between drumming and witches.

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From kekai at JPS.NET  Sat Dec 11 01:18:31 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 17:18:31 -0800
Subject: Brahmins and Dalits (To Irene)
Message-ID: <161227054395.23782.2105901882159821452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namrata Bose wrote:
 And it is
> not a mere coincidence that Samar Abbas is a MUSLIM. And a Jehadi >Muslim.

Did you come to the conclusion that Samar is a "Jehadi Muslim" based
on what he writes here or do you know something about him that we
don't?

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

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From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Sat Dec 11 02:05:38 1999
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 21:05:38 -0500
Subject: dakinis
Message-ID: <161227054420.23782.8738424091386887747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Bengali

Dhak is a large drum. played on ceremonial occasions.


Also in bengali

Dak can mean sound or call dependending on context just like call in english
ie Call me, or bird call.




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Sat Dec 11 00:58:08 1999
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 99 00:58:08 +0000
Subject: dakinis
Message-ID: <161227054418.23782.5830939119744502576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Venkataram Iyer wrote:
>     Apart from the Daakini of Cilappathikaram, consideration
>     can be given that the following words can arise naturally from
>     the sounds of drums. Not necessarily any particular language
>     group!
Yes, of course many languages have onomatopoeic words like the ones I
gave for drumming.  However, do these words also have apparent
cognates with the meaning of "shaman"/"witch" etc ?   Certainly,
viewed from the Buddhist tantric tradition, there is a close
connection between .daakiniis and drums, specifically, .damaru made of
cranial hemispheres.  The form of the word .daakinii does not suggest
a Sanskrit derivation so I am trying to establish a reasonable
hypothesis for the actual source of the word -- it doesn't matter to
me whether it is Dravidian or Munda, although the latter would fit in
with other observations one can make about the history and use of the
word.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sat Dec 11 07:47:31 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 99 07:47:31 +0000
Subject: All-India Oriental Conference, 40th Session,              Chennai 28 to 30 May 2000
Message-ID: <161227054422.23782.17554828588309234436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,

On behalf of the Reception Committee of the 40th Session of AIOC, I have
pleasure in inviting your attention to the announcement, together with the
membership form for participation in any of the 19 Sections of the Section,
which cover a wide range of subjects from Iranian to Dravidic to Sanskrit and
Computer, details posted at Message #83, http://sarasvati.listbot.com

Welcome to Chennai, India in the new millennium!

Dr. S. Kalyanaraman

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 12 15:42:22 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 99 07:42:22 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054426.23782.7064025685421897642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>In short, the core idea is 'tying;. 'cAttu' precisely means that.

Dear Dr. Krishnan,

Perhaps it is hard to relate the verb "cAttu" to zATI/sADI/cATi??

Yours,
N. Ganesan

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From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Dec 12 07:07:19 1999
From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM.Krishnan)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 99 12:07:19 +0500
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054424.23782.11947532465807723620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12/10/99 5:04:00 AM, you wrote:
>Dear Thiru. LS,
>
>Thanks for pointing out the "sky garment" in Parpola.
>Tamil has "tAr" for both a) flower mAlA and b) weapon, army;
>tAr-kANittal = bestowing authority/title (like kaN-kANi).
>tAr =garland/weapon may fit the priest-king's dress(tArpya).
>
>Dr. Witzel in his Sep. '99 EJVS paper has pointed out several
>k and s/z word-initial variants in foreign loan words:
>eg., kambala/zambara, kabara/zabara, kIsta/zISTa, kimIdin/zimIdaa,
>kambu/zambu, kirAta/cilAta, etc., Dr. Southworth has suggested
>Dr. *kIndu > sindhu river (Erdosy, 1994).
>
>If this k/s/z alterations are admissible, then several words
>can be looked into. As a pointer, I talked of two words.
>1) dr. kalkoTa > zarkoTa nAgam (karkoTa dynasty, 600 AD)
>and 2) kATi > zATI. For zATI, tamil kAzh, kAzhakam must also be
>looked into. Anyway, these are just possibilities if the
>k => z/s changes are ok in Sanskrit.
>
>Thanks & Warm regards,
>N. Ganesan
>
Perhaps a word origin with a direct meaning could be considered here,viz., Tamil verb 'cAttutal.'

This verb is used even today for covering and tying around the temple deity with open ended garments (like
saree/dhoti) and also with flowers. Any flower or even poetical offering is also referred to by the same verb.

But the basic meaning is related to open ended garments only. Any garment which is wound over a person would be
referred to with this verb. The etymolgy for this garment could have been  cAttu>cAtti>cAti>cAdi>zAdi>zAri.

There is another related word 'cAttiyam' - it means 'one can possibly tie up and complete'. In Tamil 'possibility for
ending up' is also referred as 'possibility for tying up'. We can look at the similarity in meaning of the words 'cAttu' and
'cAttiyam'

Another word commonly used on wearing a zAri is 'muTital' - again it means 'tying up'. The whole crux of wearing a
zAri is to 'tie up', if it should not get loosened up.

In short, the core idea is 'tying;. 'cAttu' precisely means that.

With regards,
RM.Krishnan




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 12 23:40:39 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 99 15:40:39 -0800
Subject: .sa.s.titantra
Message-ID: <161227054430.23782.17954879209010687603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While Dr. Bronkhorst would be probably the best person to answer this
question, I add some preliminary comments:

----Original Message Follows----
From: Bruno Lo Turco <b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT>
Subject: .sa.s.titantra
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 23:10:19 +0100

Bruno Turco asked: What do we know about the .sa.s.titantra? As far as I
remember, it is supposed to be the oldest systematic
exposition of sA.mkhya. The last stanza of the
sA.mkhyakArikA presents this work as a summary of the
.sa.s.titantra which leaves out all the didactic tales,
together with the controversies with other schools. But
according to vAcaspatimizra, the .sa.s.titantra is not a
work, but a scheme composed of sixty arguments. Do we have
any evidence of this?
_______________________
VA replies: The existence of Shashtitantra is proved by numerous quotations
from it that are extant in later works. These quotations have been collected
and studied by numerous authors. Two such collections that I am familiar
with are
1. Pulinbihari Chakravarti; Origin and Development of the Sankhya System of
Thought; Published by Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers; Delhi; 1975
2. Pracina Samkhya Sandarbha; Udayavira Sastri; Govindaram Hasanand; Delhi
(In Hindi)

The 60 topics are listed by Yuktidipika (introd. portion) etc.
The didactic tales and disputations with other schools are apparently
present in a later text called the Samkhya Sutra (in Chapter 4; and in Chps
5 and 1 resp.) Many of the disputations in the Sutra text are late in origin
and might not have been present in the original Shashtitantra.
Numerous Shashtitantras existed, the original one probably the work of
Pancasikha, and a later redaction by Varshaganya.

Please be on the lookout for the volume on the conference on Samkhya (see
the archives of November 1999 for an announcement by Dr. Bronkhorst to this
effect).

Best wishes
Vishal Agarwal
http://hinduweb.org/home/dharma_and_philosophy/vvh

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From b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT  Sun Dec 12 22:10:19 1999
From: b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT (Bruno Lo Turco)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 99 23:10:19 +0100
Subject: .sa.s.titantra
Message-ID: <161227054428.23782.2703623707263015025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the list,
What do we know about the .sa.s.titantra? As far as I
remember, it is supposed to be the oldest systematic
exposition of sA.mkhya. The last stanza of the
sA.mkhyakArikA presents this work as a summary of the
.sa.s.titantra which leaves out all the didactic tales,
together with the controversies with other schools. But
according to vAcaspatimizra, the .sa.s.titantra is not a
work, but a scheme composed of sixty arguments. Do we have
any evidence of this?

Bruno Lo Turco
Universita' di Roma  'La Sapienza'




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 13 13:54:15 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 99 05:54:15 -0800
Subject: .sa.s.titantra
Message-ID: <161227054436.23782.679822733731676961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See also,

Bibliography of Samkhya, by Anuradha Pujari, CASS, Univ. of Poona, 1994, and
a number of works by Esther Solomon, mostly published from Ahmedabad,
Gujarat.

Vidyasankar

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Mon Dec 13 10:45:57 1999
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 99 11:45:57 +0100
Subject: .sa.s.titantra
In-Reply-To: <01bf44ed$ae410d60$LocalHost@carlos>
Message-ID: <161227054434.23782.15721609546043497625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Bruno,

See also:
-- Erich Frauwallner: ``Die Erkenntnislehre des klassischen
Saa.mkhya-Systems", in: Wiener Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde Sued-
und Ostasiens 2 (1958), pp. 3-58 (= Kleine Schriften. Hrsg. von
Gerhard Oberhammer und Ernst Steinkellner. Wiesbaden 1982
[Glasenapp-Stiftung. 22.), pp. 223-278).
-- Gerhard Oberhammer, ``The Authorship of the
.Sa.s.titantram", in: Wiener Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde Sued- und
Ostasiens 4 (1960), pp. 71-91.
-- David Seyfort Ruegg: ``Note on Vaar.saga.nya and the
Yogaacaarabhuumi", in: Indo-Iranian Journal 6.1962-63, pp. 137-
140.
-- Ernst Steinkellner: ``The .Sa.s.titantra on Perception, A
Collection of Fragments", in: Asiatische Studien / ?tudes
Asiatiques 53.3 (1999), pp. 667-677.

With kind regards,
Roland Steiner




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 13 20:08:42 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 99 12:08:42 -0800
Subject: Week, month, year - cycles
Message-ID: <161227054438.23782.17802206624256627582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Interested in the history of the seven-day week in India;
Will Zerubavel's book have it? Interestingly, tamil has unique
names for most of the names of the week. The names of 27 nakshatras
and days in a week (It may not be a 7 day week) may go much back.
When does 12 month cycle a year start in India?
References on the month names and their origins
please. Tamil has a cycle of 60 years where the names of those
are completely in Sanskrit.

Guidance, references sought for the seven day week, naming of
the days in a week, month names, year-cycle names - their history
in India.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 13 20:47:35 1999
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 99 15:47:35 -0500
Subject: Transliteration fonts: "extra" characters
In-Reply-To: <004301bf42a3$14af52c0$8132893e@default>
Message-ID: <161227054440.23782.6348195266592716812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Perhaps others might also be interested in having the requisite
diacritics to transcribe Gandhari (and *pretty please with sugar on
top* -- a Mac version!)


Jonathan Silk

jonathan.silk at yale.edu

Dept. of Religious Studies
320 Temple St.
New Haven CT 06520

tel. 203-432-0828




From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 14 00:15:34 1999
From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 99 16:15:34 -0800
Subject: How do I contact Prof Vasudha Narayanan?
Message-ID: <161227054446.23782.10399190853789065684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is there any way in which Prof Vasudha Narayanan, Prof of Religion, U
Florida can be contacted? She seems to be on a sabbatical this year and am
not sure if her email works...

Can anybody also please give me the adds(email/phone) oif Prof Paul Younger
who authored "The Temple Of The Dancing Sivan"?

Regards,
Krishna

______________________________________________________
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From Kumara.Henadeerage at ANU.EDU.AU  Mon Dec 13 05:20:10 1999
From: Kumara.Henadeerage at ANU.EDU.AU (Deepthi Kumara Henadeerage)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 99 16:20:10 +1100
Subject: Copula and Tamil
Message-ID: <161227054432.23782.14124466694121820588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I understand that Tamil does not have a copula morpheme. Can someone
please recommend me some papers or books written on this issue?

Thanks in advance,

Kumara

________________________________________________
Kumara.Henadeerage at anu.edu.au
http://www.anu.edu.au/linguistics/sinhala/
Linguistics - Australian National University
================================================




From SSRVJ at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 13 22:18:51 1999
From: SSRVJ at AOL.COM (Somayaji Rajagopala)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 99 17:18:51 -0500
Subject: Week, month, year - cycles
Message-ID: <161227054444.23782.15633529360721859073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 12/13/99 3:09:26 PM EST, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

<< References on the month names and their origins
 please.  >>
In Chaandra Maana(Lunar months)--if full moon (Pornima chandra) is in the
constellation(Nakshattiram)-Chitra -the month is Chaitram-Similarly
Visaakam=Vaisaaki--Jyesta=Jyesta---Poorva/Utthara
Aashada=Aashada---Sravanam=Sraavanam---Poorva/Utthara Paadra =Paadra
padam----Aswini=Aasweejam----Krittika=Kaartika----Mrga
Zeersham=Margazeeram---Pushyami=Pushya---Makam=Maakam---Poorva /Uttara
Phalguni=Palgunam.In Tamil nomenclature Thai(Sanskrit -Thaishyam)is for
Pushya maasam. But for Aani-Jyesta has no similarity with Aani-so in Tamil
language whether a different kind of nomenclature existed or not is not
known.In Soura Maanam (Solar Months)from the precise time  Sun enters into
the
Raasi(Zodaic)Mesham-Rishabam-Mithunam-Katakam-Simham-Kanni-Thulaam-Vricchikam-
Dhanusu-Makaram-Kumbam-Meenam the months are named after the Raasi.----In
Kerala and in Tamil nadu (among some  Brahmins) Solar months are followed.It
is not known whether in Norht-East some states follow Solar months. -------In
whichever "Hora"- Sun/Moon/Mars etc a day(Sun Rise) starts-the day gets that
name-Bhanu-Indu-Mangala-Budha-Guru-Sukhra-Sani
etc.Tamil-Gjaayiru-Thingal-Chev voy-Bhudhan-Vyaalan-Velli-Sani.




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Tue Dec 14 00:38:05 1999
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 99 17:38:05 -0700
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
In-Reply-To: <19991214001534.92041.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054448.23782.3654341690347012220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

SaRi, as it is worn in North (with head covered) appears
ro have Greek influence. perhaps there is some relationship
between the SaRi and the dress worn in Ethiopia/Sudan.

Incidentally, at one time, before Digambaras and Svetambaras
were clearly separated, there was a sect named "eka-shaataka",
the Jain monks of this sect used a single garment, presumably
the cloth draped over the the left arm.

Incidentally original Hindi term is "saa.Rii" (itrans) not
saarii.  Somtimes the word "dhoti" is used for both men's
and well as women's garment.

Yashwant




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Tue Dec 14 01:04:43 1999
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 99 18:04:43 -0700
Subject: Thiruvalluvar and Thirukkural
In-Reply-To: <19991214001534.92041.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054450.23782.8486614282064073196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

nanda chandran <vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>But how many Tamilians are vegetarians - which is the
>least one would expect of a follower of the way of life
>expounded by Thiruvalluvar. And the small percent of Tamils
>who're vegetarian seem more influenced by brAhmanism than
>by Valluvar.

Vegetarianism is more the result of Jainism than
Brahmanism (or even Buddhism).  Vegetarianism is not
a requirement in many Brahmin communities in the North
although it has been getting popular in many communities
in the last few centuries.

Buddhism (Thervad) allows eating of meat, but not killing
of animals. There is a verse in the Kural, that in the
opinion of some, refers to it.

Yashwant




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Mon Dec 13 21:21:19 1999
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 99 22:21:19 +0100
Subject: Week, month, year - cycles
In-Reply-To: <19991213200842.65487.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054442.23782.7480467759919755192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Tamil has a cycle of 60 years where the names of those
>are completely in Sanskrit.

The sixty-year cycle (the so-called Jovian or prabhavaadi years) is found
in Varahamihira's Brihatsamhita, chapter 8.

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 14 14:53:21 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 99 06:53:21 -0800
Subject: Visitor in 1790 A.D.
Message-ID: <161227054454.23782.14775148868226159122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Arthur & Usha Helweg, An immigrant success story, East Indians
in America, Univ. of Pennsylvania press, 1990
Ch. 3, East Indians come to America (1790-1965),
The Early years
" A colonial diary from the year 1790 provides the first account
of an East Indian in America; it records the visit of a man from
Madras to Salem, Massachusetts. He had come to America with a colonial
sea captain and with a desire to expand trade between New England,
Britain and South Asia. The number of East Indians that followed was
not great. Only six Asian Indians participated in Salem's 1851
Fourth of July celebrations, which were sponsored by the East Indian
Marine Society."

Would like to know about the sources and writings about
the Indian who was seen in 1790 A.D. in Massachusetts.
I have read his name as Malayappan (I think)
from Arthur Pais, "Indian Diaspora", India Abroad newspaper,
XiX.48, Sept. 1, 1989. Are there any more data
somewhere else?, for example in:
S. Chandrasekhar, 1982, From India to America, La Jolla, Ca.
J. M. Jensen, 1988, Passage from India
Jane Singh et al.,  South Asians in America. 1988 etc.,

Thanks for info or references,
N. Ganesan







______________________________________________________
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From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Tue Dec 14 07:44:29 1999
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 99 07:44:29 +0000
Subject: Transliteration fonts: "extra" characters
In-Reply-To: <v0422080ab47b0bb6a08e@[130.132.185.171]>
Message-ID: <161227054452.23782.4735060427194545157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Jonathan Silk wrote:

> Perhaps others might also be interested in having the requisite
> diacritics to transcribe Gandhari (and *pretty please with sugar on
> top* -- a Mac version!)

If you will provide a list of characters I will be happy to do what I can
to accommodate them.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From OLES56 at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 14 17:44:38 1999
From: OLES56 at AOL.COM (Helen Oles Giunta)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 99 12:44:38 -0500
Subject: Visitor in 1790 A.D.
Message-ID: <161227054456.23782.1115480837770715669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 12/14/99 9:54:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

<< I have read his name as Malayappan (I think)
 from Arthur Pais, "Indian Diaspora", India Abroad newspaper,
 XiX.48, Sept. 1, 1989. Are there any more data
 somewhere else? >>
Dear N.Ganesan ,
I spend a great deal of time in the Boston, Mass . area and I can assure you
that Salem has a wonderful historical society, They have excellent records
and historical documents dating from the period you have mentioned. If I were
seeking more info on this individual the Salem , Mass . Historical Society
would be my first phone or e-mail. Would you like their phone or e-mail
address ?
Helen O. Giunta




From haridasc at YAHOO.COM  Tue Dec 14 22:23:21 1999
From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 99 14:23:21 -0800
Subject: vairAgyam
Message-ID: <161227054460.23782.5846226983044387645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

I am hoping to get a variety of responses, so my
question is broad:

In the corpus of Indian thought, where might one
textually establish vairAgyam as a necessary
prerequisite to moksa?

thanks in advance,

Haridas

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From bvi at AFN.ORG  Tue Dec 14 20:24:04 1999
From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 99 15:24:04 -0500
Subject: How do I contact Prof Vasudha Narayanan?
Message-ID: <161227054458.23782.7996551983892706928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 04:15 PM 12/13/99 PST, you wrote:
>Is there any way in which Prof Vasudha Narayanan, Prof of Religion, U
>Florida can be contacted? She seems to be on a sabbatical this year and am
>not sure if her email works...

She is out of town and will be back on December 27 according the secretary
at the Religion Department of University of Florida.  The phone number there
is (352) 392-1625.

Chris Beetle




From dbgray62 at HOME.COM  Wed Dec 15 02:31:05 1999
From: dbgray62 at HOME.COM (DAVID GRAY)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 99 21:31:05 -0500
Subject: vairAgyam
Message-ID: <161227054462.23782.4184579018032671576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You might want to look into Bhartrhari's VairAgyashataka.  See also the
twentieth chapter of the ViSNudharmottarapurANa (Baroda:Oriental
Institute, 1958), which contains statements that vairAgya gives rise to
shAnta which in turn is conducive to moksa. Relevant verses are
translated into English in Masson and Patwardhan's SAntarasa and
Abhinavagupta's Philosophy of Aesthetics (Poona:Bhandarkar Oriental
Research Institute, 1969).

David Gray

Haridas C wrote:
>
> Dear list members,
>
> I am hoping to get a variety of responses, so my
> question is broad:
>
> In the corpus of Indian thought, where might one
> textually establish vairAgyam as a necessary
> prerequisite to moksa?
>
> thanks in advance,
>
> Haridas
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
> Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com




From poopathi at AA.NET  Wed Dec 15 09:31:10 1999
From: poopathi at AA.NET (Poopathi Manickam)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 99 01:31:10 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054466.23782.12213402980652391926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Mallaiya:

SA.RI  aka  Mun?du  could have been a discovery of our working mothers..!

(mun?thaanai/Mun meaning front Thundu  (Seelai (ChEla dress) in Tamil)))

It could have been needed for them
to carry the sun on their back while carrying
the suckling under their breast...

So that they could have work (in the nurseries or in the paddy fields)
and yet take care of our babies (breast feed) at the same time. .

Some folk songs (lullabies) are there to support this (catch-22 ?))
common bondage of maternal instinct...

And hence the second mundu ..that is essential
and needed across the breast..(Just like a Thottil (mobile swing))

These age old  at-one-ment  is still prevalent among
our mothers (hair collector in exchange for buffalo comb)
of rural Tamil Nadu.. even these days..

Apparently.. the Roman effeminate gemologists
could have been  inspired by the attire and
ultimately absorbed as their dressing code . . .
Perhaps..?

MadisAr would have been totally a different revelation / exposure..
And it could have been a  ?counter spin ? for the same reason (!)


Regards. . .

Poopathi


----- Original Message -----
From: "Yashwant Malaiya" <malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: sAri, the Indian dress


> SaRi, as it is worn in North (with head covered) appears
> ro have Greek influence. perhaps there is some relationship
> between the SaRi and the dress worn in Ethiopia/Sudan.
>
> Incidentally, at one time, before Digambaras and Svetambaras
> were clearly separated, there was a sect named "eka-shaataka",
> the Jain monks of this sect used a single garment, presumably
> the cloth draped over the the left arm.
>
> Incidentally original Hindi term is "saa.Rii" (itrans) not
> saarii.  Somtimes the word "dhoti" is used for both men's
> and well as women's garment.
>
> Yashwant
>




From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM  Wed Dec 15 12:12:58 1999
From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 99 04:12:58 -0800
Subject: vairAgyam
Message-ID: <161227054471.23782.16433314419024861059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would look at Jain literature.

--- "L.S.Cousins" <selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM> wrote:
> Dear Haridas,
>
> Two possibilities immediately occur to me:
>
> 1. There is discussion of vairaagya in the
> Yogasuutra commentaries.
>
> 2. The sequence is  clear in the Pali Canon: viraaga
> is part of the
> process of developing insight/wisdom which leads to
> knowledge and
> vision, etc.
>
> Lance Cousins
>
> >In the corpus of Indian thought, where might one
> >textually establish vairAgyam as a necessary
> >prerequisite to moksa?
>

__________________________________________________
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Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 15 14:55:50 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 99 06:55:50 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054475.23782.7366227974588853883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>SaRi, as it is worn in North (with head covered) appears
>ro have Greek influence. perhaps there is some relationship
>between the SaRi and the dress worn in Ethiopia/Sudan.

It is natural that Indians use zATI(tamil kATikam) to cover the head
for protection from the hot tropical sun. May not be from Sudan,
Greece, Rome or Middle East. Also, ta. mukkATu = veil comes from the
verb pair: mukku(to immerse, to cover)/muGku(to be immersed/to
be covered). Mother goddesses (eg., Jain ambikA) in ancient sculpture,
Kishangarh/Kangra pgs., modern paintings of Sankara, Vallalaar
have the veil.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM  Wed Dec 15 08:26:53 1999
From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 99 08:26:53 +0000
Subject: vairAgyam
In-Reply-To: <19991214222321.21735.qmail@web3106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227054469.23782.11713691224996093535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Haridas,

Two possibilities immediately occur to me:

1. There is discussion of vairaagya in the Yogasuutra commentaries.

2. The sequence is  clear in the Pali Canon: viraaga is part of the
process of developing insight/wisdom which leads to knowledge and
vision, etc.

Lance Cousins

>In the corpus of Indian thought, where might one
>textually establish vairAgyam as a necessary
>prerequisite to moksa?




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 15 17:49:30 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 99 09:49:30 -0800
Subject: When did the gods become literate ?
Message-ID: <161227054480.23782.7070089837530059997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

GT>Thieme reconstructs the 'thrice-seven' as follows:
GT>a  i  u  R  e  o  ai  au
GT>y  r  l  v
GT>k  c  T  t  p
GT>z  S  s  h
[...]
GT>From this brief summary of Thieme's article it may appear that
GT>Thieme is forcing the data into the framework of the magical number
GT>21. But I think that he had good reasons to do so, as a detailed
GT>examination of his article would, I think, show. The number is
GT>certainly a magical one in the RV [cf. ref. to 21 secret names of
GT>the cow, etc.]


  This principle of contraction is at work all the time in tamil which
  has only 30 letters (12 vowels + 18 consonants) in tolkAppiyam or
  today. Earliest 2nd cent. BC inscriptions has 10 vowels (No ai or
  au) and, 18 consonants, these 28 syllabary is assumed in
  proto-dravidian (World's major languages, OUP).

  In Tamil, the magical 21 sounds will be:
  the 3 basic vowels, a, i, u (leaving out long vowels, diphthongs,
  and no liquid R exists) PLUS the 18 consonants (attested in writing
  from 2nd cntury BC). TolkAppiyam splits the 18 consonants to 3
  groups of 6 letters each:

  'hard' consonants=   k c T t p R  (their pronunciation being
                                     context-sensitive)
  'middle' consonants= y r l v z L
  'soft' consonants=   G J N n m n2

  We can arrive at the magical "thrice-seven" from three sets
  of one vowel out of a total 3 PLUS a group of 'hard'/'middle'/'soft'
  of 6 consonants each. That is,

         a + k c T t p R
         i + y r l v z L
         u + G J N n m n2

  Increasingly, English interacts with any Indian language much more
  than between any 2 Indian languages; Tamil literary discussion lists
  like www.tamil.net or agathiyar at egroups.com using bilingual fonts
  write g='k, j='c, D='T, d='t, b='p, f='v, h=aaytam, s=^c, S=~c.
  Extending the good old contraction principles, the RHS employs
  tamil letters for sanskrit or english g,j,D,d,b,f,h,s & S.

  Regards,
  N. Ganesan


PS: When Tamils started transliterating on the web few yrs ago, your
former teacher, George Hart wrote:From: George Hart
<ghart at socrates.berkeley.edu>

At the risk of sounding a bit sanctimonious, I'd like to put in a
strong word for a proper transliteration of Tamil.  That means the
transliteration of the Tamil Lexicon or something close to it.  One
of the great miracles of linguistic insight is the way in which the
Brahmi alphabet was adapted for Tamil about the third century BC.
Whoever did it realized that, given the phonological rules of Tamil,
the letters in kaa, akam, and aGku, though all pronounced
differently, are actually the same phoneme.  He or she accordingly
used the same Brahmi character for "k" in all these positions and
eliminated the kh, g, and gh that are in Prakrit/Sanskrit but not in
Tamil.  The genius of the Tamil language, and all its history, depend
on this insight, which is a truly awesome one.  Now we see people who
want a "phonetic" transcription of Tamil.  This is nonsense.  If we
start writing "kaa," "agam" and "angu," we have, purely and simply,
murdered the language.  If one is writing for people who know no
Tamil, then there may be some excuse for writing "kamban," but if one
writes for Tamilians, then PLEASE, let's keep "kampan" -- otherwise,
the entire morphology and structure of the language are lost.

It may be worth remarking that even Malayalam (which, like modern
Tamil, comes from old Tamil) keeps this system.  In fact, Malayalam
actually has two writing systems: one for native words and one for
Sanskrit borrowings.  The fact that Malayalis did not feel they could
adopt "phonetic" renderings for native words should suggest to all of
us that it is unwise, and indeed quite dangerous, to do for Tamil.

It has long been a complaint of people who speak other languages
(and, indeed, of some Tamilians) that Tamil is "inferior" because it
does not have all the sounds of Sanskrit.  This is nonsense.  The
Tamil alphabet is perfectly suited for the Tamil language.  Its only
lack is a way to produce the occasionally voiced initial in borrowed
words (bayam, fear) -- but this can be managed by somehow marking the
first letter (as is often done by italicization or other means).
-G. Hart



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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 15 18:51:25 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 99 10:51:25 -0800
Subject: vairAgyam
Message-ID: <161227054482.23782.9832004619740674999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The earliest reference would probably be in Brhadaranyaka Upanishad 3. 5. 1,
which talks of giving up desire for sons, wealth etc. See also Jabala
Upanishad, "yad ahareva virajet tad ahareva pravrajet." There are many other
such Upanishadic texts, and of course, the commentaries in the Yoga and
Vedanta schools.

Vidyasankar

>I am hoping to get a variety of responses, so my
>question is broad:
>
>In the corpus of Indian thought, where might one
>textually establish vairAgyam as a necessary
>prerequisite to moksa?

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From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Dec 15 12:45:17 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 99 12:45:17 +0000
Subject: Date of Bhasa (was Re: Age of the Veda)
In-Reply-To: <19991203123435.20542.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054473.23782.12840418948127493806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is quite a large secondary literature on this topic.

On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, N. Ganesan wrote:

> >Also, Haksar's translation of Bhasa's plays (Penguin) tells in the front
> >page that Bhasa lived like 2-1 cent. BC to 1 cent. AD.
> >I recall  Prof. Steiner writing that Bhasa is no older than 6-7 centuries.
>
> "Bhaasa has to be older than Kaalidaasa because the
> latter mentions Bhaasa as a predecessor in his
> Maalavikaagnimitra." according to an Indologist whom I contacted.
> However, the so-called Bhasa's plays are possibly 7th century or even
> later.
>
> Regards,
> N. Ganesan
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ  Wed Dec 15 02:47:32 1999
From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Mahoney, Richard B.)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 99 15:47:32 +1300
Subject: La Vallee Poussin, Louis de
Message-ID: <161227054464.23782.13953113021063177913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Readers

I'm having trouble tracking down an edition of ZAntideva by La Vallee
Poussin.  I've had no success with Harrassowitz - "sorry it is long out of
print and we do not know of reprint plans" - and I'm not sure who to turn
to next. The details are as follows:

La Vallee Poussin, Louis de (ed.)

PrajJAkaramati's Commentary to the BodhicaryAvatAra of ZAntideva, Edited
with Indices (Calcutta: Asiatic Society of Bengal, 1901-14)

I think that the text may be in the "Bibliotheca Indica" series but I'm
not sure.

Does anyone know of a copy which it might be possible to copy or perhaps
even buy?


--
Many Regards

Richard B Mahoney
Student
Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies
University of Canterbury
New Zealand




From tlk at MATH.KU.DK  Wed Dec 15 15:53:50 1999
From: tlk at MATH.KU.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 99 16:53:50 +0100
Subject: (Fwd) Chess game
Message-ID: <161227054478.23782.11781103333630217892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indology members,

I was cleaning my things yesterday and found my father's old
chessboard.  In this regard I was curious about one thing.  The
chess game is said to originate in India and have reached Europe
through Persia and Arabia.  I believe that in Hindu traditions the
woman stands on the left side of the man.  In chess this is the
case for the white king and queen (the white queen stands on the
left side of the white king), however on the side of the black party
the queen stands on the right side of the king contrary to the
tradition mentioned above.  Does anyone know if there is some
significance to this?

Many thanks in advance.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 16 16:00:06 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 99 08:00:06 -0800
Subject: kalki
Message-ID: <161227054485.23782.14614929005663120724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. V. Rao <vidynath at MATH.OHIO-STATE.EDU> wrote a while ago:
>The trouble is that these are attested at a much later date. The
>presence of words like `kalki' shows that -lk- is acceptable in
>Modern Tamil. But that tells us nothing about the situation in early
>First Millennium BCE.

May be the answer is very late:
In around 1000 A.D., tamil texts and commentaries render skt. r/l
as .r(R). Examples:
kalki > ka.rki(kaRki); varga > va.rkam(vaRkam); tarka > taRkam in
tamil. Only later, these are tamilized as kalki, varukkam, tarukkam
respectively.

Don't know about the First Millennium BCE situation.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 16 19:50:26 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 99 11:50:26 -0800
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Message-ID: <161227054489.23782.6575710605987942503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I've a question on SAmkhya/Yoga philosophy :

The SAmkhya/Yoga schools posit the reality of matter (prAkriti) and
innumerable (Selves) Purushas. While Purushas are supposed to be the
mere observers, PrAkriti is said to evolve for the satisfaction of the
Purushas. Classical SAmkhya makes it absolutely clear that the
Purusha is only pure consciousness - it even denies it the quality
of bliss. (And whether the Purusha itself can desire is very
debatable and we had a long argument on this list about this very
issue a few months back).

The real problem with reconciling a changing prAkriti with a
changeless Purusha seems to be due to attributing some part of
empirical experience to the Purusha. But then any such invovlement
cannot affect the basic concept of the Purusha being unaffected
by such experience. And to this end the SAmkhya tries valiantly
to reconcile the changing world to the changeless Self - in vain.
As it's logically impossible.

My question here is - is the problem due to giving an individual
identity to the Purusha? ie since since SAmkhya in its worldview
has innumerable Purushas it has to essentially individualize them
to identify them distinctly from each other. But to identify them
distinctly it overrides its own definition of the Purusha being
pure consciousness - for if every Purusha was but pure consciousness
devoid of objectivity, how could we distinguish them from one
another? The struggle in classical SAmkhya seems to be at reconciling
an impersonal Purusha and its personal identification.

If there was but one Purusha then there is no need to
assert its individuality and hence it could be an impersonal entity
which effects the prAkriti to evolution. And reconciliation would
be that much better, though not final, between the changing PrAkriti
and the unaffected Purusha.

Is it this inherent contradiction in its worldview of multiple
Selves, the weak link in the SAmkhya/Yoga argument?

Grateful for any clarifications.

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From rao.3 at OSU.EDU  Thu Dec 16 12:46:06 1999
From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 99 12:46:06 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) Chess game
Message-ID: <161227054484.23782.15742983399882835280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The answer is that originally `Queen' = minister/general.
Similarly, `Bishop' = elephant and `castle' = chariot.

This brings up a strangeness in the game. Why was the elephant limited to
moving diagonally? Even stranger is the fact that the chariot had to stop
before turning. This is so unlike what chariots were regularly called on to
do in races in Greece, Vedic India (as described in the sutras) and
presumably in the Ancient Near East (in battles). Any thoughts?




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 16 21:31:11 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 99 13:31:11 -0800
Subject: Week, month, year - cycles
Message-ID: <161227054493.23782.8649399065100612973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The nakSatra lore (27 or 28) seems very ancient and must have been
present in the IVC. There are 100s of names for the nakSatrams in
Tamil Lexicon and literature. It will be interesting to see when the
sun entered Karttikai asterism and at that time the meshayanam also
happening? Then, Karttikai will be the first nakshatram. Manimekalai
refers to visAkam as the "middle" nakshatram, this will be true only
if Karttikai is the first nakshatram. Heard that Karttikai is the
first nakSatram in the krishna yajurvedam also. With back
calculations, what year is arrived at for having Kaarttikai as the
first nakshatram? Is it 2240 BCE? Like Manimekalai epic, Tevaram also
speaks of Karttikai as the first nakshatram. This precious data is in
harmony with Vedic texts, not analyzed so far.

Few nakSatra names: 1) tEn2el, puravi (asvini) 2) naTuvanAL,
pakalavan, cORu, tAzi, yAmai, tAti 3) azaRkuTTam, erinAL 4) vayamIn,
tiGkaNAL, paNTi 5) narippuRam, mummIn, mAzku, veyyOn 6) Atirai,
mUtirai, ceGkai 7) puNartam, mUGkil, karumpu, piNTi, AvaNam 8) vaNTu,
kuTam, pUcam 9) aravinAL, kavai, kaTcevi 10) ezuvAy, Jemali,
koTunukam, vAykkAl 11) pUram, eli 12) pARkuni, mArinAL, mAn2ERu
13) kaimmIn, kaini 14) nErvAn, naTunAL 15) vIzkkai, marakkAl
16) muRam, cuLaku 17) puRRaLi, pOntai 18) centazal, vallArai
19) neRkaTai, mUlam 20) nIrnAL, uTaikuLam 21) kaTaikkuLam, piRkuLam
22) ONam, mAyOnAL 23) viTTam, puL, kAkam 24) cekku, cataiyam
25) vArUNi, nAzi, nIr 26) aRivan, muracu 27) icainAL, nAvAy.
The present counting of nakSatrams starting with asvini seems
to be rather late (post 6-7th century). Is this started by
Brahmagupta or Varahamihira?

The month is present in Sangam texts. They called veLLuvA, kAruvA
for full and new moon days. Week is not told in CT. Eighth day's moon
is mentioned few times in sangam texts (eN-nAL tiGkaL vaTiviRRu -
perumpANARRuppaTai; eN-nAL tiGkaL - puRam). No 7th or 9th day
crescents talked about in CT. Then, was there a 8-day week? Like the
Roman 8-day cycle? Later, Thiruvalluvar hints at 7-day week: "oru nAL
ezu nAL pOl cellum" (kuRaL 1269). Sambandhar and Appar list 7 days as
in the modern week: (vEyuRu toLi paGkan .... JAyiRu, tiGkaL, cevvAy,
... - Sambandhar; koLLum kizamai Ez aan2Ay - Appar).

Is it correct to say that even though the 7-day week and 12 rashi were
borrowed in Hellenistic times into India, the nakshatra calender is
Indian?

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU  Thu Dec 16 19:57:06 1999
From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 99 14:57:06 -0500
Subject: Chess game
Message-ID: <161227054491.23782.16979031639554447293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am looking for the source of a story that is closely linked with the
game of chess.  I would appreciate any help.

Accoding to the story, a pundit who worked in a court taught the game of
chess to his king.  The king was so pleased that he offered to repay the
pundit.  The pundit asked for a single grain of wheat on the first
square of the chessboard, two grains on the second square, four on the
third square, and so on, doubling the number of grains on each
succeeding square until all squares had been used. The king considered
the request as modest and asked his subordinates to fulfil the request.
In his attempt to fulfil the request, it did not take long for the king
to realize that he could not fulfil the "modest" request.  The needed
amount of wheat was larger than the total stock of wheat in his kingdom.

Alok Kumar




From sb51 at SOAS.AC.UK  Thu Dec 16 16:48:42 1999
From: sb51 at SOAS.AC.UK (Stefan Baums)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 99 17:48:42 +0100
Subject: (Fwd) Chess game
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%1999121612560745@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227054487.23782.5351124808404927525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 12:46:06PM +0000, Vidhyanath Rao wrote:
> The answer is that originally `Queen' = minister/general.
> Similarly, `Bishop' = elephant and `castle' = chariot.

Wasn't it the other way around (elephant -> castle, chariot ->
bishop)?

--
PGP-ID: 4AF752D0




From OLES56 at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 17 01:52:01 1999
From: OLES56 at AOL.COM (Helen Oles Giunta)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 99 20:52:01 -0500
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Message-ID: <161227054495.23782.6351672360641627109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Definition : PrAkriti is said to evolve for the satisfaction of the
Purushas..... Delema:;to reconcile the changing world to the changeless Self

Dear N. Chandran,
you are thinking as an adult. One should experience as a child. When full of
that child - like wonder the world simply becomes a constantly evolving
/changing play gorund in which the un - changable and ever constant finds its
self .
Experience becomes an accumulation of time spent in this playground. I am
constantly reminding Christians that we never realy left the garden . When
thought of in this fashion - the Pakriti/Parusha delema is desolved.
Helen O.




From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM  Fri Dec 17 02:07:43 1999
From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 99 21:07:43 -0500
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Message-ID: <161227054497.23782.4614566493434710823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Shamkara's view, Samkhya metaphysics and cosmology would not make sense
even if purusha were one rather than many. The weak link is the
non-interaction (or non-contact) between prakriti and purusha.

According to Shamkara in his Brahmasutra-Bhashya,  the Samkhyas held that
prakriti and purusha are absolutely distinct from one another and do not in
any way really interact. The pradhana (prakriti) is initially composed of
the three gunas (sattva, rajas, tamas) in a state of perfect equilibrium.
Beyond the pradhana, there is no external force that can either activate the
pradhana or prevent its activity. The Soul (purusha) is indifferent; it
neither moves nor restrains. Shamkara argues that since the pradhana has (on
Samkhya assumptions) no relationship with anything outside itself, it is
impossible to understand why it should sometimes depart from a state of
equilibrium and transform itself into a world and why it should sometimes
not do this but rather remain in the state of equilibrium. The three gunas,
co-existing in a state of perfect equilibrium in which each is completely
independent of the others, cannot enter into relations of inferiority or
superiority with one another; and since there is no external principle or
force to stir them up, the initiation of activity in the pradhana and the
consequent evolution of a world seems impossible.

Dr. George Cronk
Dept. of Philosophy & Religion
Bergen Community College (NJ)




----- Original Message -----
From: nanda chandran <vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 2:50 PM
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question


> I've a question on SAmkhya/Yoga philosophy :
>
> The SAmkhya/Yoga schools posit the reality of matter (prAkriti) and
> innumerable (Selves) Purushas. While Purushas are supposed to be the
> mere observers, PrAkriti is said to evolve for the satisfaction of the
> Purushas. Classical SAmkhya makes it absolutely clear that the
> Purusha is only pure consciousness - it even denies it the quality
> of bliss. (And whether the Purusha itself can desire is very
> debatable and we had a long argument on this list about this very
> issue a few months back).
>
> The real problem with reconciling a changing prAkriti with a
> changeless Purusha seems to be due to attributing some part of
> empirical experience to the Purusha. But then any such invovlement
> cannot affect the basic concept of the Purusha being unaffected
> by such experience. And to this end the SAmkhya tries valiantly
> to reconcile the changing world to the changeless Self - in vain.
> As it's logically impossible.
>
> My question here is - is the problem due to giving an individual
> identity to the Purusha? ie since since SAmkhya in its worldview
> has innumerable Purushas it has to essentially individualize them
> to identify them distinctly from each other. But to identify them
> distinctly it overrides its own definition of the Purusha being
> pure consciousness - for if every Purusha was but pure consciousness
> devoid of objectivity, how could we distinguish them from one
> another? The struggle in classical SAmkhya seems to be at reconciling
> an impersonal Purusha and its personal identification.
>
> If there was but one Purusha then there is no need to
> assert its individuality and hence it could be an impersonal entity
> which effects the prAkriti to evolution. And reconciliation would
> be that much better, though not final, between the changing PrAkriti
> and the unaffected Purusha.
>
> Is it this inherent contradiction in its worldview of multiple
> Selves, the weak link in the SAmkhya/Yoga argument?
>
> Grateful for any clarifications.
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 17 12:53:24 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 99 04:53:24 -0800
Subject: astronomy
Message-ID: <161227054504.23782.12938477681346504177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

  Early Tamil texts routinely talk of Karttikai as the
  first nakshatram and *not* Varahamihira's Ashwini as the
  first nakshatram. Example: Manimekalai & Tevaram.
  This information back-calculates to 2240 B.C. However,
  Man. and Tev. are regularly dated to 5th and 6th centuries A.D.
  respectively. Can a similar situation pertain to the
  Vedic texts like Sathapatha Brahmana, ... too?
  Or else, if the Vedic texts are pushed back deep into
  the past, soo too is Tamil chronology using similar arguments.

  Regards,
  N. Ganesan

Dr. K. Elst wrote:
<<<
I entirely agree with Prof. Witzel that we have better things to do
than look up things which interested list members can easily find for
themselves, or than answering all too elementary questions.  But the
question of the date of the Vedanga Jyotisha is not below a
professional indologist's dignity: it is fundamental, consequential
and as yet not the object of a consensus.
[...]
The really challenging point is: so far, all astro-chronological
information in Vedic literature, indirect and obscure as well as
direct and explicit, points consistently to a higher chronology.  That
is why astronomers both Western (since the late 18th cent., e.g. John
Playfair 1790) and Indian have attributed a high chronology to Vedic
literature.  To my knowledge, nobody has ever countered that by
pointing out even one astro-chronological hint in the texts confirming
a low chronology. The answer is invariably to deny the
astro-chronological information, either to deny that it has anything
to do with astronomy (possible in some cases, as the astronomical
terminology is mostly terms with ordinary meanings to which a
technical meaning is given by Vedic astronomy), or to deny, with
Romila Thapar and our friend Michael Witzel, that this information
pertains to the time when the text was composed.  But this implies
that the whole Vedic literature has a bizarre tendency to
systematically antedate itself (as if in a grand conspiracy to fool
future indologists), and to talk about ancient stellar configurations
all while disregarding the actual configurations visible to the
authors themselves.  This strange tendency is not in evidence in Hindu
astronomical writings which have been firmly dated, like Aryabhatta's.

Now, this is where the Vedanga Jyotisha comes in.  This is a manual
for priests concerning the astronomical aspects of their work.
Obviously, it deals with the actual stellar configurations, for it
tells its users where in the sky they should look to see if the time
has come for this or that ritual.  Moreover, it does not deal in
poetic metaphors, but in technical astronomy.  In verse 6, it locates
the winter solstice at ca. 23?20 of sidereal Capricorn, 47? from its
present position.  Taking into account the precession of 1? in 71
years, this indicates a date of ca. 3337 years ago. An inaccuracy of
1? makes a difference of 71 years less *or more*, but given the nature
of the text, it is likely that Lagadha tried to be precise.
>>>
______________________________________________________
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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 17 15:21:52 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 99 07:21:52 -0800
Subject: astronomy
Message-ID: <161227054510.23782.9470828083509044906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What may be new to this old discussion is the data from the
Tamil side." TB 1,2,1,2 emphatically affirms, "The Pleiades,
forsooth, are the beginning of the calendrical asterisms"
[...] The nakshatra calender seems to have been compiled around
the time when Pleiades rose heliacally at the vernal equinox.
The time when the Pleiades was exactly in the equinoctial point
was c. 2240 BC, and it was the asterism closest to the equinoctial
point c. 2720-1760 BC. " (p. 204, Parpola, 1994).

Just like TB and othrs, the buddhist epic Manimekalai and shaivaite
saint Sambandhar in his Tevaram also talk about the Pleiades
being the first asterism. This Karttikai nakshatram is mentioned
several times much more than any other in CT and this being
the first nakshatram continues well into the 7th century.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


<<<
There will be a paper on these topics, with sky maps, by
Prof. N. Achar in EJVS (address below)  just before Christmas.
Until then, I hold my fire.

NB the discussion is more than a hundred years old, and scholars then
pointed out that the 'moon house' system is found with the ancient
Arabs (manzil) and Chinese (sieu, old 19th c. spelling)  as well.

MW.
>>>
______________________________________________________
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From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Dec 17 07:38:39 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 99 08:38:39 +0100
Subject: astronomy
In-Reply-To: <19991217125324.77335.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054506.23782.3943224170341198610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 4:53 -0800 12/17/99, N. Ganesan wrote:
>  Early Tamil texts routinely talk of Karttikai as the first nakshatram ...
>  This information back-calculates to 2240 B.C. ...
>  if the Vedic texts are pushed back deep into the past, soo too is
>  Tamil chronology using similar arguments.

>Dr. K. Elst wrote:
> all astro-chronological
>information in Vedic literature, ... points consistently to a higher
>chronology....
> Vedanga Jyotisha ... indicates a date of ca. 3337 years ago.

There will be a paper on these topics, with sky maps, by Prof. N. Achar in
EJVS
(address below)  just before Christmas.
Until then, I hold my fire.

NB the discussion is more than a hundred years old, and scholars then
pointed out that the 'moon house' system is found with the ancient Arabs
(manzil) and Chinese (sieu, old 19th c. spelling)  as well.

MW.

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies
Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990
home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Fri Dec 17 11:00:17 1999
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 99 11:00:17 +0000
Subject: CARB character set
Message-ID: <161227054502.23782.4006202052320821217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A week or so ago I announced plans to create CARB fonts to supplement the
existing Norman and CSX+ ones. CARB stands for Character/Accent RagBag,
and the fonts are intended to contain whatever weird accented characters
people need that aren't available in Norman or CSX+.

I attach to this message a draft definition of the new character set. It
contains 86 characters. When people have had a chance to comment, I shall
make any changes that seem appropriate, build the fonts (PC only to start
with), and make them available from my web/ftp site.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html


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From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Dec 17 12:25:47 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 99 12:25:47 +0000
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Message-ID: <161227054499.23782.331581329977899582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

nanda chandran wrote:
>
> I've a question on SAmkhya/Yoga philosophy :
>
> The SAmkhya/Yoga schools posit the reality of matter (prAkriti) and
> innumerable (Selves) Purushas. While Purushas are supposed to be the
> mere observers, PrAkriti is said to evolve for the satisfaction of the
> Purushas. Classical SAmkh ......

I am tempted to re-narrate the story of the Vaihnava tradition regardng Purusha and
Prakrti.

When Miiraa went to see Jiva Goswami, she was told by a disciple that the Goswai never
sets his eyes upon a woman. and hence will not see her. Upon hearing this Miirra remaked
in surprise, "I had heard that in Vrindavan the only Purusha was Krishna and all other
were Gopis."  Overhearing this comment, Jiva Goswami rushed out of his selision and fell
at Mira's feet saying, "You have opened my eyes to truth." Goswai was enlightened by the
Mira whom he had initiated in childhood.

The argument, so it seems to me, about the duality of Purusha and Prakrtii is only a the
level of speculation. Experientially , through samadhi, there can be consciouness of
Purusha and nothing else, so we are told. But out of nirvikalpa there is only prakrti.
For the Jivamuktas ,there is neither or both.


bharat Gupt




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 17 21:56:38 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 99 13:56:38 -0800
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Message-ID: <161227054514.23782.13155847299024531052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I wrote this for the Advaita list, but thought it might be useful for our
discussion too :

----------------------

For all schools of ethical philosophy prior to the bhakti movement
the goal was only cessation of suffering. The SAmkhya/Yoga and
NyAya/Vaishesika fundemental ideals are very similar to the Buddha's
four noble truths. There's suffering - it is caused by desire -
for cessation of suffering desire is to be suppressed - desire is to
be suppressed in a particular way.

The "way" usually depended on each school's vision of reality. For
the Bauddhas who had no concept of a Self, their philosophical
problems were on a totally different plane from the Astikas for
whom reality was the Self. And apart from the JainAs all the schools
(excepting KumArilla Bhatta who seems to incline towards the JainA
view of an evolving Self) believed that the Self was already liberated
and it's only due to ignorance that bondage existed. The JainAs
believed in an evolving Self which when purified would be liberated.

But if we're already liberated - how can there be suffering?

So all the schools say that it is only due to ignorance as to the
true nature of things that there's bondage. And each school tries
to alienate suffering to something other than the Self - the SAmkhya
to prAkriti - Advaitam to mAyam.

According to the SAmkhya, prAkriti is primal matter with the three
qualites or gunams - sattvam, rajas and tamas - which starts off
evolution due to the mere presence of the Purushas (the question as
to what it was doing before, since both the Purushas and PrAkriti
are eternal and would have always been in the presence of each other
is raised by our AchArya - so the question of prAkriti *starting* to
evolve is meaningless - but again as the Bauddhas do, it could have
been explained away as anAdi - beginningless). Even our body and mind
are considered to be only prAkriti, while our true Self is the Purusha. The
Purusha watching the evolution of PrAkriti (body and mind) is deluded into
believing that it is that which evolves and thus falls into bondage.

But the fundamental problem is that as long as we define the Atman/Purusha
to be the "Self" - we have to identify the Atman with some part of
ourselves. And as we've seen in our discussions even on this list, to
identify the Atman with some part of ourselves and still try to prove that
the Atman/we are unaffected by empirical experience is logically impossible.

So both SAmkhya/Advaitam runs into the problem of having to handle the
ignorance. If the ignorance were a part of the Purusha - being eternal
it would always be ignorant and no liberation would be possible. But
then without ignorance how could we have fallen into bondage?

Even the classical SAmkhya texts, though they say that ignorance is the
cause of bondage, they also try to assert that ignorance only belongs to
prAkriti. But again if the ignorance belongs only to prAkriti, how could the
Purusha have fallen into bondage?

Logical reconciliation is impossible.

It is my opinion that if the Astika schools had not been so stuck on the
concept of a "Self" - giving it individuality and personality -
reconciliation would not have been that hard. (The other extreme end
of this view is the theory of anatta of the early Buddhist schools
who tried to totally do away with the Self and hence had to deal with
a totally different set of problems. But NAgArjuna is smarter).

If the Purusha were an impersonal entity - consciousness without
any individuality - without the "I" sense - one could just say that
it "lights" up the prAkriti into action and gives it consciousness.
Inshort PrAkriti is lifeless - jadam - and it's the Purusha without
individuality - which is the underlying truth and is unaffected by
all the actions of prAkriti.

An apt example would be a light bulb. It's electricity which gives
life to the bulb and is the truth behind it. So whether the bulb burns
or dies out, the electricity is unaffected by this. Similarly we as
our individual personality is the bulb as a whole including the
electricity. But the Atman is the impersonal electricity alone, which
is unaffected by all empirical experience ie the functions of the
bulb.

So, though the Purusha is the essence of the "I" consciousness, it's
still without individuality - impersonal. Infact Ishvara Krishna says
as much - he says that when one knows that "I'm not" ie the Ego doesn't
exist - it leads to liberation - implying that individuality doesn't belong
to the Purusha. But still he doesn't extend it to the Purusha and make it
impersonal.

One of the reasons for this may have been that since the SAmkhya advocates a
plurality of Selves, it had to distinguish each Purusha from the other and
hence the touch of individuality.
______________________________________________________
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From lazarowitz at HAWK.UCC.EDU  Fri Dec 17 19:37:43 1999
From: lazarowitz at HAWK.UCC.EDU (Bob Lazarowitz)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 99 14:37:43 -0500
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Message-ID: <161227054512.23782.1036673289021654530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Following up on Dr. Cronk's very useful clarification of the views of
Shamkara on the Samkhya position regarding the impossibility of
disequilibrium of prakriti,
given its initial condition of equilibrium and its attendant relationship to
purusha,
I am led to believe that perhaps Shamkara conflated several distinct facets
of the
issue under concern. For example, we learn that, according to Shamkara on
Samkhya, "...it is impossible to understand why it [prakriti] should
sometimes depart from a state of equilibrium...and sometimes not do this."
The reason why it is impossible to understand this is because no force
external to prakriti exists to effectuate such a change (by hypothesis), and
prakriti (at initial time) is in
a state of equilibrium. However, what we can or cannot understand falls
under
the rubric of epistemology and not ontology; ie, the limitations of our
understanding impose no corresponding limitations on what is ontologically
the case in the cosmos (at least I would defend such a position). Next, I
would
argue, contrary to Shamkara, that it is not logically! impossible for
prakriti to
move from a state of equilibrium to disequilibrium without an external force
present. The notion that every event has a cause is a metaphysical principle
that
has, I believe, been questioned in sub-atomic particle physics. Einstein, I
believe,
demurred on this point ("God doesn't play dice with the world."), but this
was
a minority opinion.

So, to sum up, Shamkara may be conflating what is possible or impossible to
understand with what is logically possible or impossible. But these are
certainly two entirely different matters (Leibniz' Principle of Sufficient
Reason notwithstanding.)

Bob Lazarowitz


----- Original Message -----
From: george9252 <george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: SAmkhya/Yoga question


> In Shamkara's view, Samkhya metaphysics and cosmology would not make sense
> even if purusha were one rather than many. The weak link is the
> non-interaction (or non-contact) between prakriti and purusha.
>
> According to Shamkara in his Brahmasutra-Bhashya,  the Samkhyas held that
> prakriti and purusha are absolutely distinct from one another and do not
in
> any way really interact. The pradhana (prakriti) is initially composed of
> the three gunas (sattva, rajas, tamas) in a state of perfect equilibrium.
> Beyond the pradhana, there is no external force that can either activate
the
> pradhana or prevent its activity. The Soul (purusha) is indifferent; it
> neither moves nor restrains. Shamkara argues that since the pradhana has
(on
> Samkhya assumptions) no relationship with anything outside itself, it is
> impossible to understand why it should sometimes depart from a state of
> equilibrium and transform itself into a world and why it should sometimes
> not do this but rather remain in the state of equilibrium. The three
gunas,
> co-existing in a state of perfect equilibrium in which each is completely
> independent of the others, cannot enter into relations of inferiority or
> superiority with one another; and since there is no external principle or
> force to stir them up, the initiation of activity in the pradhana and the
> consequent evolution of a world seems impossible.
>
> Dr. George Cronk
> Dept. of Philosophy & Religion
> Bergen Community College (NJ)
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: nanda chandran <vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM>
> To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 2:50 PM
> Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
>
>
> > I've a question on SAmkhya/Yoga philosophy :
> >
> > The SAmkhya/Yoga schools posit the reality of matter (prAkriti) and
> > innumerable (Selves) Purushas. While Purushas are supposed to be the
> > mere observers, PrAkriti is said to evolve for the satisfaction of the
> > Purushas. Classical SAmkhya makes it absolutely clear that the
> > Purusha is only pure consciousness - it even denies it the quality
> > of bliss. (And whether the Purusha itself can desire is very
> > debatable and we had a long argument on this list about this very
> > issue a few months back).
> >
> > The real problem with reconciling a changing prAkriti with a
> > changeless Purusha seems to be due to attributing some part of
> > empirical experience to the Purusha. But then any such invovlement
> > cannot affect the basic concept of the Purusha being unaffected
> > by such experience. And to this end the SAmkhya tries valiantly
> > to reconcile the changing world to the changeless Self - in vain.
> > As it's logically impossible.
> >
> > My question here is - is the problem due to giving an individual
> > identity to the Purusha? ie since since SAmkhya in its worldview
> > has innumerable Purushas it has to essentially individualize them
> > to identify them distinctly from each other. But to identify them
> > distinctly it overrides its own definition of the Purusha being
> > pure consciousness - for if every Purusha was but pure consciousness
> > devoid of objectivity, how could we distinguish them from one
> > another? The struggle in classical SAmkhya seems to be at reconciling
> > an impersonal Purusha and its personal identification.
> >
> > If there was but one Purusha then there is no need to
> > assert its individuality and hence it could be an impersonal entity
> > which effects the prAkriti to evolution. And reconciliation would
> > be that much better, though not final, between the changing PrAkriti
> > and the unaffected Purusha.
> >
> > Is it this inherent contradiction in its worldview of multiple
> > Selves, the weak link in the SAmkhya/Yoga argument?
> >
> > Grateful for any clarifications.
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>




From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE  Fri Dec 17 13:52:39 1999
From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 99 14:52:39 +0100
Subject: Week, month, year - cycles
Message-ID: <161227054508.23782.6862887803670028708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To N. Ganesan, Sergei Schmalz and others:

    The Nakshatra cycle is also known in China and starts with the
Pleiades/Krttika, reason enough for the late Joseph Needham (Science and
Civilization in China, section Astronomy) to date its origin to the 24th
cent. BC, when this asterism held the spring equinox.  The same reasoning
goes for the Indian system, putting the starting date in the mid-Harappan
period.
Needham thinks the Indian and Chinese systems have a common origin.  On the
assumption that the RgVeda and a fortiori the Shat. Br., B.Shr.S. and other
texts with astronomical data are post-1500 BC, he proposes that it
originated in China and was transmitted to India.  But this need not be so,
and may be reversed if we either admit a higher chronology for Vedic
literature or assume that it borrowed these astronomical notions from the
IVC.

Parpola, I think, has written that traces of an earlier counting of
Nakshatras can be discerned, with Rohini/Aldebaran at the head, pointing to
ca. 3100 BC.  The epithet Kalapurusha, "time man", for Prajapati/Orion may
be a reminiscence of Orion as equinox-marker, close to 4000 BC.  Several
Vedic instances of Orion lore with apparent astro-chronological implications
led Tilak and Jacobi to suggest 4000 BC as within the (centuries-long)
period of composition of the Rg-Veda.  Given the mythic language and
context, this might be one instance where the Thapar-Witzel explanation of
"reminiscence" could apply: the stories and the resultant epithets of their
main actors may have lived on long past their time of astronomical
relevance.

    To really stray from the path of orthodoxy, I venture to doubt that the
12-part Rashi division of the ecliptic was borrowed from Hellenistic
sources, though its general use in astronomy and astrology certainly was.
In most cultures, names of constellations persist for thousands of years.
In some cases, these names do relate to their (precession-dependent)
position in the seasonal cycle, e.g. a once-autumnal constellation is called
"the Sandal" in Chinese uranography because it marked the season when cattle
was slaughtered and its leather used to make shoes.  But most
constellations, and especially the most conspicuous ones, got their names
from other factors, esp. their general appearance.  In some cases, the shape
really suggests the name, esp. Leo and Scorpio, but in most cases you have
to read a meaningful shape into the star pattern.  Nevertheless, once an
interpretation annex name of a star pattern is agreed upon in a given
culture (and note the remarkable similarity of interpretations/names across
cultural frontiers), it tends to last for thousands of years, much like
river-names.  So, the names of the Zodiacal constellations may have been
around for ages, even in India.

That the Zodiacal constellations are usually attributed to Mesopotamian
culture is, if true, not much of an objection.  There was plenty of
interaction
between Mesopotamia on the one hand, and various IE cultures (Hittites,
Mitannians, Iranians) and the IVC on the other.  So, I wouldn't be surprised
if the names Leo/Simha, Aquarius/Kumbha, Pisces/Mina etc. already existed in
the Rg-Vedic period.  They may even pre-date the (Vedic use of the)
Nakshatra system, which seems to make its appearance during the Vedic
period, when Nakshatra-derived personal names start replacing the older,
typically IE naming system of the early Vedic Aryans.  Shifting of focus
from the solar Rashis to the lunar Nakshatras seems to be a phase in the
march of civilization, viz. from an imprecise astronomy concerned with the
seasons (for agriculture etc.) and using the imprecisely observable solar
position (imprecise because the sun is never seen against a background of
stars) to a more professional astronomy for its own sake, or for religious
purposes, using the better observable lunar motions against the stellar
background, hence the 27 lunar mansions.

The Rashi names Vrshabha, Mithuna, Simha and Kanya are mentioned in the
Rg-Veda, and judging from the context, they are used in an astronomical
rather than their primary natural sense.  In 5:83:3, it is said of the
rain-god Parjanya: "he makes the messengers of rain spring forward.  Far off
resounds the roaring of the Simha, what time Parjanya fills the sky with
rain-cloud."  Sidereal Leo then (I leave you to calculate just when) marked
the month of June, the onset of the monsoon.  Two months earlier, the hot
season then started under Gemini/Mithuna, which is called "the basis of heat
(tapas)" in 3:39:3 (though I am aware that this verse has also been given a
sexual as well as a yogic meaning).  Clearest of all is perhaps the
reference to Kanya/Virgo (then marking the rainy season, hence, as in this
verse, an apt comparison for the water-rich Saraswati), described in 6:49:7
as "having Chitra as her life", Chitra being the star Spica, alpha Virgonis.

The divisions in 27 and in 12 may well have coexisted.  Indeed,till today
the Indian months' names (12) are typically derived from the name of the
most prominent asterism (27, with 2 or 3 per month) within its sector of the
sky.  In Hellenistic uranography, we find subdivisions of large
constellations sometimes designated as constellations in their own right,
e.g. Argo Navis divided in Puppis, Pyxis, and two more, or the Wain as the
most conspicuous part (saptarshi) of the Great Bear.  That the division in
12 was indeed known to the Vedic Aryans is clear from 1:164:11, which
describes the year as a twelve-spoked wheel, apart from mentioning the
division in 360?.

Yours sincerely,
Koenraad Elst

http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 18 02:58:27 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 99 18:58:27 -0800
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Message-ID: <161227054516.23782.3376438167276075688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bob Lazarowitz <lazarowitz at HAWK.UCC.EDU> wrote:

>I am led to believe that perhaps Shamkara conflated several distinct facets
>of the
>issue under concern.

I have to question whether it is not us 20th century folks who are
conflating various facets of the issues, instead of Sankara.

>prakriti (at initial time) is in
>a state of equilibrium. However, what we can or cannot understand falls
>under
>the rubric of epistemology and not ontology; ie, the limitations of our
>understanding impose no corresponding limitations on what is ontologically
>the case in the cosmos (at least I would defend such a position).

Classical Samkhya assumes that that which is can be known, if not
perceptually, then through inference or appropriate authority, i.e.
scripture/tradition. Epistemology is the first issue discussed by
Isvarakrishna (see Samkhyakarika 5-7). I submit that to properly understand
Indian systems of thought, we have to accept that the old philosophers
assigned enormous truth value to scriptural authority. Most modern
reconstructions/reinterpretations/criticisms of schools like Samkhya and
Vedanta fall far short of appreciating this point.

Classical Samkhya arrives at its notions of vyakta and avyakta, and pradhAna
or mUlaprakRti through inference. What Sankara does through his criticisms
of Samkhya is to establish the holes in the inferential arguments that lead
to the Samkhya dualism. And it is not just the logical validity of the
argument that concerns Sankara. It is equally or more important for him that
the Samkhya inference is not concordant with the scripture.

>Next, I would
>argue, contrary to Shamkara, that it is not logically! impossible for
>prakriti to
>move from a state of equilibrium to disequilibrium without an external
>force
>present. The notion that every event has a cause is a metaphysical
>principle
>that
>has, I believe, been questioned in sub-atomic particle physics. Einstein, I
>believe,
>demurred on this point ("God doesn't play dice with the world."), but this
>was
>a minority opinion.
>

You suggest that in Samkhya, mUlaprakRti, which is initially in a state of
equilibrium of the three guNas, can spontaneously have its equilibrium
disturbed. This would then have to be uncaused (ahaituka) and independent
(svatantra) of anything else. If you argue for an internal cause within
prakRti that leads to moving away from equilibrium, you have to specify
whether such an internal cause is part of the guNas or something additional
to the three guNas. In either case, we can then question whether this is an
inherent svabhAva of prakRti or not, and also ask whether a state of
equilibrium of the three guNas is wholly fictitious to begin with.

The trouble with all this is that classical Samkhya philosophers certainly
did not have the benefit of input from 20th-century sub-atomic physics, and
did not know about the apparently spontaneous rise of matter-antimatter
pairs. Neither did Sankara. As far as Samkhya is concerned, the manifest
material world is affirmed to have a cause (hetumat) and is dependent
(paratantra). The cause of this manifestation is then said to be the
association or proximity (samyoga) of pure consciousness and the root
prakRti. The "other" (para), upon which material manifestation is dependent,
is the purusha or pure consciousness. If not for the presence of purusha,
the prakRti would continue undisturbed in its state of equilibrium of the
three guNas. All the Advaita Vedanta criticisms of Samkhya are centered upon
how this samyoga is possible and what it means for questions of liberation
and the ontological status of the manifested, material universe. Sankara's
criticism of Samkhya has to be understood in the context of what Samkhya
itself sets forth, not in terms of what modern science tells us about
causality. And we may also note that Sankara came from a school that
ultimately rejected conventional notions of causality, just as quantum
physics tends to do today.

We could perhaps reconstruct a modern version of Samkhya that takes into
account scientific developments and that circumvents such criticisms as
raised by Sankara and others. However, we should be careful of conflating
such a reconstructed version with classical Samkhya, before suggesting that
it is the earlier criticism that conflates philosophical issues. I say this
not because of my acknowledged admiration of Sankara's thought, but simply
out of a desire for accuracy in understanding the classical schools of
thought in India.

Vidyasankar
______________________________________________________
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From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Dec 18 04:29:40 1999
From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 99 23:29:40 -0500
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
In-Reply-To: <19991218025827.7004.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054518.23782.2527385040355410032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:

> Classical Samkhya arrives at its notions of vyakta and avyakta, and pradhAna
> or mUlaprakRti through inference. What Sankara does through his criticisms
> of Samkhya is to establish the holes in the inferential arguments that lead
> to the Samkhya dualism. And it is not just the logical validity of the
> argument that concerns Sankara. It is equally or more important for him that
> the Samkhya inference is not concordant with the scripture.
>
> You suggest that in Samkhya, mUlaprakRti, which is initially in a state of
> equilibrium of the three guNas, can spontaneously have its equilibrium
> disturbed. This would then have to be uncaused (ahaituka) and independent
> (svatantra) of anything else. If you argue for an internal cause within
> prakRti that leads to moving away from equilibrium, you have to specify
> whether such an internal cause is part of the guNas or something additional
> to the three guNas. In either case, we can then question whether this is an
> inherent svabhAva of prakRti or not, and also ask whether a state of
> equilibrium of the three guNas is wholly fictitious to begin with.

It is unfortunate that there is so little preserved of post-Kapilan
Samkhyan commentaries that for all we know might have addressed such
issues.  Post Sankaran Vedanta commentators such as Ramanuja, of course,
resolved the issue to their satisfaction by positing a third player --
PuruSa ViSNu, who serves as the required catalyst causing the union of
puruSa and prakRti, so they too recognized the problem in classical
Samkhya.

It is noteworthy that Sankara took Samkhya to task so vigorously on this
issue, and yet appeared comfortable with the equally conspicuous
problematic in his own system, viz, the ultimate locus of MAyA/avidhyA.
After all, a position of 'anirvAcanIya' could be invoked just as
satisfactorily or unsatisfactorily to justify the Samkhyan position of
ultimate causality as it has been used to justify the advaitin's
explanation (in the matter of the relationship between advaita Brahman and
Maya).

Edwin Bryant




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 18 09:38:59 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 01:38:59 -0800
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Message-ID: <161227054521.23782.88214004811807317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Edwin Bryant <ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

>It is noteworthy that Sankara took Samkhya to task so vigorously on this
>issue, and yet appeared comfortable with the equally conspicuous
>problematic in his own system, viz, the ultimate locus of MAyA/avidhyA.
>After all, a position of 'anirvAcanIya' could be invoked just as
>satisfactorily or unsatisfactorily to justify the Samkhyan position of
>ultimate causality as it has been used to justify the advaitin's
>explanation (in the matter of the relationship between advaita Brahman and
>Maya).

Indeed, but it seems that no Samkhya philosopher ever defended their
position using anirvacanIyatva. And nobody could have done so, for the
notion of anirvacanIya-khyAti is inextricably linked with a position that
does not hold the material world to be ultimately real. Sankara points out
in numerous places that Samkhya would simply reduce to Vedanta (brahmavAda)
if one or the other problem is addressed.

Also, for Sankara himself, the question of the locus of avidyA does not
arise. See gItAbhAshya 13.2. As he puts it here, he who sees avidyA also
sees him who has avidyA. The apparent samyoga between purusha and prakRti in
Samkhya is recast as mutual adhyAsa or adhyAropa of Atman and anAtman in
Advaita Vedanta. And when one sees that this samyoga is logically
indefensible, it follows, *from Samkhya principles*, that manifestation of
the non-conscious world can only be said to be apparent, so that the
ontological status of any independent non-conscious entity becomes suspect.
Samkhya accepts that the manifested world is paratantra, but that it is
nevertheless real. Sankara goes a step further and holds that the pradhAna
or prakRti itself cannot be svatantra, and that it cannot be said to be
ultimately real. In many ways, Sankara's formulation of Advaita Vedanta is
one solution to the central problems that would have been bothering Samkhya
philosophers in his day.

Regarding later commentators, I suggest that their invoking Vishnu as a
catalyst to bring about the manifestation of the world is not something
totally new. If one goes back to proto-Samkhya or "epic Samkhya", i.e. to
texts like the mok.sadharma in MBh, there is an underlying unifying
principle behind the dualism of prakRti and purusha. I would also venture to
suggest that what is normally called proto-Samkhya in these texts can
equally well be called proto-Vedanta.

Vidyasankar
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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 18 15:25:26 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 07:25:26 -0800
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Message-ID: <161227054526.23782.11593213843101016249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:38:59 PST
Vidya wrote:
In many ways, Sankara's formulation of Advaita Vedanta is
one solution to the central problems that would have been bothering Samkhya
philosophers in his day.
VA: I am inclined to agree with Vidyasamkar here. Bhagvatpada Samkaracharya
criticized the versions of competing schools which existed in his own times.
For that matter, it is questionable if the Yogasutras of Patanjali and the
Samkhya Karikas precede the Brahmasutras. From slightly pre-Samkara accounts
of the schools of Philosophy in India (like the Harshacarita of Bana), it is
clear that the 'Aupanishadas' were just one amongst the numerous schools of
Philosophy in India, and I would even venture to state that Bhagvatpada
acted like a 'sectarian' Vedantin who claimed that the Vedanta
interpretation alone conformed to the teachings of the Upanishads.

Vidya said: Regarding later commentators, I suggest that their invoking
Vishnu as a
catalyst to bring about the manifestation of the world is not something
totally new. If one goes back to proto-Samkhya or "epic Samkhya", i.e. to
texts like the mok.sadharma in MBh, there is an underlying unifying
principle behind the dualism of prakRti and purusha. I would also venture to
suggest that what is normally called proto-Samkhya in these texts can
equally well be called proto-Vedanta.
Vishal: To this, I would like to add a quotation from the now lost
.sa.stitantra in numerous Bhashyas of the Karikas: "Purushadhishtitam
pradhanam pravarttate". And, the word 'Adhyatmic' is used as a synomyn for
'Samkhya' in the Mahabharata as well. (Whereas, with the passage of time, it
becomes a synonymn for Vedanta)

Best wishes

Vishal
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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 18 15:46:13 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 07:46:13 -0800
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Message-ID: <161227054530.23782.10599552737125284398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Bryant said: But he has replaced one problem with another.  He has
by-passed the
need for explaining samyoga between prakRti and puruSa by positing that
the former can only be apparent, but in so doing he has created a new
problem -- whence the 'samyoga' between Brahman and this apparency,
(Maya/avidhya)?  Sankara's detractors (Ramanuja, Madhva, Nimbarka,
Vallabh, Baladev and even Siva/Sakti monists), in turn, never cease to
point out what they consider to be the achilles heel of Sankara's own
solution to the Samkhyan dilemma.

VA: Correct. In fact, I suspect that Samkara's criticism of Samkhya here
might merely reflect a vareity the Samkhya of his own times, or a
mispresentation their views. For that matter, the Tattva Samasa Sutra
clearly states "Five are the yonis of Karma", an idea echoed in the Gita and
other old texts of Samkhya as well. This allows for the Purusha to be a
performer as well as the non performer of Karma. In fact, Bhagvatpada's
criticism of Samkhya on this count might be totally misplaced considering
that Samkhya makes a radical distinction between Purusha and
Prakriti/Vikriti. From the Samkhya perspective, we cannot conceive a
'samyoga' between the two just as we see a 'Samyoga' between two material
objects. This is because the Purusha is not a material object. But this does
not preclude the possibility of the overlord ship of the Prakriti by
Purusha. By denying the Samyoga between Prakriti and Purusha, the Samkhya is
merely dispelling the **apparent** admixture of Prakriti and Purusha.

Dr. Bryant Wrote:
I am curious to explore to what extent Ramanauja's arguments defending the
necessity of a divine being are borrowed from Nyaya.
Vishal: These arguments are encountered in the chatuhssutri portion of the
Sri Bhashya which follows the (now fragmentary) Siddhitraya of Sri Yamuna
very closely. It is clear that in this stream of reasoning, the  Mimamsist
arguments are first countered by the Naiyayika. The latter's arguments are
finally countered by Sri Ramanuja and the Siddhanta is stated. Thus, the
Nyaya defence for the necessasity of the divine being is not accepted as the
final solution by the Sri Vaisnavas when the relevant portion of the Sri
Bhashya is read. Surendranath Dasgupta however states otherwise while
reviewing the doctrine of Sri Yamuna, forgetting that only a fragment of the
Isvarasiddhi is extant and a summary of the lost portion is encountered with
in the Sri Bhashya as the final Siddhanta on this issue. A good reference on
this issue is

Siddhitraya; Uttamur Viraraghavacharya; Ubhaya Vedanta Granthamala Book
Trust; Madras; 1072

Regards

Vishal
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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 18 16:03:02 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 08:03:02 -0800
Subject: Q: Sakasthan Numismatics
Message-ID: <161227054532.23782.14234580415945986401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mr. Samar Abbas asked
Q1: A historian called Gandassa has claimed on Usenet that the term
`Sakasthan' is to be found on Indo-Scythic coins and inscriptions
scattered over Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat, although he does not
provide.....

VA responds: The following book is very useful
Kushana Numismatics; Satya Shrava; Pranava Prakashan; Delhi; 1985
By the same author,the following book studies the information on Shakas
available from the Hindu texts:
The Sakas in India; Satya Shrava; Pranava Prakashan; Delhi; 1981
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From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Dec 18 13:28:49 1999
From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 08:28:49 -0500
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
In-Reply-To: <19991218093900.18479.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054524.23782.17652733150372218020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:

> Indeed, but it seems that no Samkhya philosopher ever defended their
> position using anirvacanIyatva. And nobody could have done so, for the
> notion of anirvacanIya-khyAti is inextricably linked with a position that
> does not hold the material world to be ultimately real.

That particular term, indeed, but a parallel term indicating that the
ultimate nature of causality is beyond human reason can be coined by
almost any school that runs into philosophical difficulties.

> Also, for Sankara himself, the question of the locus of avidyA does not
> arise. See gItAbhAshya 13.2. As he puts it here, he who sees avidyA also
> sees him who has avidyA. The apparent samyoga between purusha and prakRti in
> Samkhya is recast as mutual adhyAsa or adhyAropa of Atman and anAtman in
> Advaita Vedanta. And when one sees that this samyoga is logically
> indefensible, it follows, *from Samkhya principles*, that manifestation of
> the non-conscious world can only be said to be apparent, so that the
> ontological status of any independent non-conscious entity becomes suspect.
> Samkhya accepts that the manifested world is paratantra, but that it is
> nevertheless real. Sankara goes a step further and holds that the pradhAna
> or prakRti itself cannot be svatantra, and that it cannot be said to be
> ultimately real. In many ways, Sankara's formulation of Advaita Vedanta is
> one solution to the central problems that would have been bothering Samkhya
> philosophers in his day.

Yes.  But he has replaced one problem with another.  He has by-passed the
need for explaining samyoga between prakRti and puruSa by positing that
the former can only be apparent, but in so doing he has created a new
problem -- whence the 'samyoga' between Brahman and this apparency,
(Maya/avidhya)?  Sankara's detractors (Ramanuja, Madhva, Nimbarka,
Vallabh, Baladev and even Siva/Sakti monists), in turn, never cease to
point out what they consider to be the achilles heel of Sankara's own
solution to the Samkhyan dilemma.

> Regarding later commentators, I suggest that their invoking Vishnu as a
> catalyst to bring about the manifestation of the world is not something
> totally new. If one goes back to proto-Samkhya or "epic Samkhya", i.e. to
> texts like the mok.sadharma in MBh, there is an underlying unifying
> principle behind the dualism of prakRti and purusha. I would also venture to
> suggest that what is normally called proto-Samkhya in these texts can
> equally well be called proto-Vedanta.

I am curious to explore to what extent Ramanauja's arguments defending the
necessity of a divine being are borrowed from Nyaya.  I have a sense that
the same basic theistic arguments just keep resurfacing.

Edwin Bryant




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 18 19:05:14 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 11:05:14 -0800
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Message-ID: <161227054536.23782.9624116197683791194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Edwin Bryant <ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

> > notion of anirvacanIya-khyAti is inextricably linked with a position
>that
> > does not hold the material world to be ultimately real.
>
>That particular term, indeed, but a parallel term indicating that the
>ultimate nature of causality is beyond human reason can be coined by
>almost any school that runs into philosophical difficulties.
>

Well, Advaita Vedanta ultimately holds to a doctrine of ajAti. Here, it is
not so much that the nature of causality is beyond human reason, but that
the very notion of causality is a fiction.

>Yes.  But he has replaced one problem with another.  He has by-passed the
>need for explaining samyoga between prakRti and puruSa by positing that
>the former can only be apparent, but in so doing he has created a new
>problem -- whence the 'samyoga' between Brahman and this apparency,
>(Maya/avidhya)?  Sankara's detractors (Ramanuja, Madhva, Nimbarka,
>Vallabh, Baladev and even Siva/Sakti monists), in turn, never cease to
>point out what they consider to be the achilles heel of Sankara's own
>solution to the Samkhyan dilemma.

Well, in the Advaita two-level perspective, the question of avidyA arises
only at a level that presumes avidyA. It does not arise at the level of the
highest Brahman. So he does not have to explain the samyoga, as he has just
denied its reality. As far as Sankara is concerned, on the one hand, you
have this paradox of creation, which ultimately defies human resaon, and on
the other, a way out of the entire paradox, and he prefers the way out.

Each of Sankara's detractors has his own version of problem that poses as a
solution. No one can adequately "explain" the first karma that causes
saMsAra. To say that it is beginningless is one solution, but this is
exactly Sankara's position too, and I suspect that it won't be a
satisfactory solution for contemporary sensibilities. One has to say that it
is all lIla, which can serve as an "explanation" for anything and
everything, while another has to invoke a strangely alien doctrine of
eternal damnation. A third detractor creates more logical difficulties than
he solves, by saying that Brahman is at once one and many. To qualify this
by the term acintya does not really solve the problem. Somehow, the
overwhelming reliance on a saviour God in the theistic schools masks these
issues, perhaps because the emphasis within the tradition shifts from
philosophy to other issues. But dig deep enough, and the same intractable
problems come out, only couched in different terms and in different
contexts.

Vidyasankar
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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 18 19:10:39 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 11:10:39 -0800
Subject: SAmkhya/Yoga question
Message-ID: <161227054538.23782.15317390647187382628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vishal Agarwal <vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>this does
>not preclude the possibility of the overlord ship of the Prakriti by
>Purusha. By denying the Samyoga between Prakriti and Purusha, the Samkhya
>is
>merely dispelling the **apparent** admixture of Prakriti and Purusha.

???? In Samkhya, samyoga of purusha and prakRti is not admixture, but
proximity. Samkhya does not deny this samyoga, but invokes it to explain the
manifestation of the unmanifest material nature. This manifestation is held
to be real, so that the samyoga which brings it about also has to be real.

Vidyasankar
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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 18 19:51:12 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 11:51:12 -0800
Subject: astronomy
Message-ID: <161227054540.23782.5642655934997545989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Kaplan, The nothing that is: a natural history of zero, OUP, 1999
" The third moral is the most significant for our tale, and it is
that the Greek influence on Indian culture of this time is clear.
The appearance of poppy seeds in Archimedes' sequence and here just
can't be a coincidence; but if you miss it, how dismiss the structural
similarities between the two accounts? In fact, if you look anywhere
in Indian astrology, astronomy or mathematics you'll see traces of
Greek forebears: Hindu names of the zodiacal signs and various
astronomical terms are Greek loan-words (kendra from kentron, center,
for example, and lipta for minute from lepton); and they wrote their
fractions in the same peculiar way the Greeks did, without a
separation line. Yet once again, the best evidence is structural, such
as their theory of planetary motion, in texts from 400 AD, being the
Greek epicyclic one. And look to error for the surest tell-tale of
truth: the ratio of longest to shortest day is given as 3:2 in early
Hindu astronomy - a ratio wholly wrong for all but the most northern
latitudes of India, but correct for Babylon, and adopted by the
Greeks. You will find a grudging acknowledgement of the Greek source
of Indian astronomy and its accompanying mathematics in the Surya
Siddhanta, apparently delivered by the Sun to a gentleman named Maya
Asura in 2,163,102 BC. The Sun instructs him to `go to Romaka-city,
your own residence. There, reincarnated as a barbarian (thanks to
a curse of Brahma), I will impart the science of astronomy to you.'
Romaka: that is, Roman, meaning the Greeks of the Roman or Byzantine
empire; and barbarian: the Greeks again, who `indeed are foreigners',
as the astronomer Varahamihira wrote around 550 AD, `but with them
astronomy is in a flourishing state'."

Is it correct that astrological terms like kendra, lipta, ...
are in Sanskrit only after Alexander? What about Vedic?

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From rchawla at DELLNET.COM  Sat Dec 18 20:02:49 1999
From: rchawla at DELLNET.COM (Ravi Chawla)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 12:02:49 -0800
Subject: Q: Sakasthan Numismatics
Message-ID: <161227054534.23782.126025819432556819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Answer to  second question of Samar Abbas  regarding 'Ilsamistan'
'Mughalstan'  etc.  there is Islamabad in Pakistan, and Allahabad in India.
Pakistan also falls in the same category.  I have never seen any reference
to "Islamistan" or "Mughalstan" or "Urdustan" - who came up with these
names?

Thank you.

Ravi
----- Original Message -----
From: Samar Abbas <abbas at IOPB.RES.IN>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 7:39 AM
Subject: Q: Sakasthan Numismatics


> Q2: As far as I am aware, the only term the Indo-Muslim kings had engraved
> on their coins is `Hindustan'. Are the modern terms, `Islamistan',
> `Mughalstan' & `Urdustan' in fact absent in the Mughal numismatic record?
>
> Samar




From rao.3 at OSU.EDU  Sat Dec 18 12:25:55 1999
From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 12:25:55 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) Chess game
Message-ID: <161227054522.23782.958261661478473617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:48:42 +0100, Stefan Baums <sb51 at SOAS.AC.UK> wrote:

>
>Wasn't it the other way around (elephant -> castle, chariot ->
>bishop)?

This is alledged sometimes, and one can find chess sets in which the rook
is shaped like an elephant, but in caturanga, it was a chariot.

The serious histories of chess I have read that caturanga elephant ->
bishop. The lines indicating the tusks were reinterpreted as a bishop's
miter in Europe, hence the name.




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Sat Dec 18 22:36:27 1999
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 15:36:27 -0700
Subject: Sakasthan Numismatics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.05.9912182050350.15479-100000@hpc21.ac.iopb.res.in>
Message-ID: <161227054546.23782.12553016372285063894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Gandasa (actually Gurupdesh S. Pandher) is no historian.
He is an economist.

His theory is that people who live in NW India are racially
and culturally distinct from the rest of India. His imagination
is that there was one a great kingdom of Sakas. He would like
to see the domination of Brahmins (who, in his view, are
Dravidian) and Banias end and the glory of the Saka rule
restored, Jats being the representative of the Sakas.

Among his views are

-Buddha ("Sakyamuni") was a Saka.
-Guptas were Saka.
-Moryas were Saka.

etc. He has saturated several newsgroups with his posts.

Shakas certainly have ruled parts of India, as have numerous
other dynasties, clans and tribes. He terms many of "Saka".

Before he is dismissed as being of no consequence, it should
be kept in mind that similar combination of history and
imagination has played a significant role in Europe. In
China, the "younger brother of Jesus" almost toppled the
Qing dynasty.

He refers to a couple of inscriptions:
"Sarvasa Sakasthanasa Puyae"("For the glory of Sakasthanis")
Capital Lion Inscriptions at Saka Twin Capitals at Mathura &
Peshawar". I don't know if these actually exist. They could
have because domains of tribes/gaNas are frequently mentioned.
other -sthans are certainly his personal imagination.

He certialy does not know Sanskrit, since he has used
spellings like "Bhudda" (Buddha) in the past.

Yashwant


-----------
Samar asked:

Q1: A historian called Gandassa has claimed on Usenet that the term
`Sakasthan' is to be found on Indo-Scythic coins and inscriptions
scattered over Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat, although he does not provide
any concrete examples. Would any experts familiar with Saka numismatics know
in which inscription and on which coins is the word `Sakasthan' to be found
? What about the terms `Gangasthan' and `Aryasthan' which Gandassa uses ?
`Aryavarta' is abundantly attested, but what about `Aryasthan' ? Or are
these terms in fact absent in the epigraphic record ?




From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Dec 18 21:50:50 1999
From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 16:50:50 -0500
Subject: The Fodder of First causes
In-Reply-To: <19991218190514.22822.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054541.23782.4668837361288076467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:

> Well, in the Advaita two-level perspective, the question of avidyA arises
> only at a level that presumes avidyA. It does not arise at the level of the
> highest Brahman. So he does not have to explain the samyoga, as he has just
> denied its reality.

OK.  But philosophy, after all, takes place on the level of conventional
reality, and it is on this level that the exchanges between those schools
that subscribe to philosophical discourse and the rules of nyaya, etc,
take place.  It is precisely when they depart from philosophical concepts
and take recourse to notions such as anirvacaniya, lila, or acintya, etc,
that they provide fodder for their opponents.

> Each of Sankara's detractors has his own version of problem that poses
> as a solution. No one can adequately "explain" the first karma that
> causes saMsAra.  To say that it is beginningless is one solution, but
> this is exactly Sankara's position too, and I suspect that it won't be
> a satisfactory solution for contemporary sensibilities. One has to say
> that it is all lIla, which can serve as an "explanation" for anything
> and everything, while another has to invoke a strangely alien doctrine
> of eternal damnation. A third detractor creates more logical
> difficulties than he solves, by saying that Brahman is at once one and
> many. To qualify this by the term acintya does not really solve the
> problem. Somehow, the overwhelming reliance on a saviour God in the
> theistic schools masks these issues, perhaps because the emphasis
> within the tradition shifts from philosophy to other issues. But dig
> deep enough, and the same intractable problems come out, only couched
> in different terms and in different contexts.

Yes, the theists have their own problems, and the same basic arguments
against them keep surfacing in Mimamsa, Jain, Buddhist and other sources.
If the Jiva is distinct from an eternal Isvara in so far as the jiva is
subject to maya while the former is not, then how did jiva find itself
under the influence of Maya? If Isvara placed it there (and Madhva is
indeed peculiar here in his extreme position of jivas being placed in
samsara for eternity), then Isvara is cruel. If some are placed in samsara
and others (nityaparSad) are not, then Isvara is partial.  If jiva's own
desire is the cause, and karma then reacts to this desire and triggers off
samsaric existence, then wherefrom the first inappropriate desire and
karmic act?  So Samkara is by no means alone in taking recourse to notions
of anirvananiya (acintya, etc) as you point out.  Obviously, first causes
are a problem for everyone throughout the history of human thought.

Edwin Bryant




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Sat Dec 18 15:39:43 1999
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 21:09:43 +0530
Subject: Q: Sakasthan Numismatics
In-Reply-To: <19991218093900.18479.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054528.23782.10870292386091627112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Q1: A historian called Gandassa has claimed on Usenet that the term
`Sakasthan' is to be found on Indo-Scythic coins and inscriptions
scattered over Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat, although he does not provide
any concrete examples. Would any experts familiar with Saka numismatics
know in which inscription and on which coins is the word `Sakasthan' to be
found ? What about the terms `Gangasthan' and `Aryasthan' which Gandassa
uses ? `Aryavarta' is abundantly attested, but what about `Aryasthan' ?
Or are these terms in fact absent in the epigraphic record ?

Q2: As far as I am aware, the only term the Indo-Muslim kings had engraved
on their coins is `Hindustan'. Are the modern terms, `Islamistan',
`Mughalstan' & `Urdustan' in fact absent in the Mughal numismatic record?

Samar




From hart at POLBOX.COM  Sat Dec 18 20:44:49 1999
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 99 21:44:49 +0100
Subject: astronomy
In-Reply-To: <19991217152152.25236.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054544.23782.4974772685159418867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Several nagging questions in connection with the present discussion thread
on Indian astronomy and its antiquity.

Is there any extra-textual evidence for the existence of true observational
astronomy in India?

Any ancient images of star-gazers with their usual instruments?

Reflexes of the elements of astronomers' daily work routine in Indian
belles-lettres? Of their observation techniques? Instruments? Charts?

Archaeological findings that could be interpreted as connected with
observational astronomy?

With regards,


Artur Karp
University of Warsaw
Poland









-------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] -----------------------
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w pierwszej internetowej symulacji rynku finansowego w Polsce.
Inwestujesz wirtualnie wygrywasz realnie http://www.pieniadz.pl
---------------------------------------------------------------




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 19 17:29:15 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 99 09:29:15 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054552.23782.752158252833176311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

sArI derives from zATI/ZATikA. Panini: zATI-paTTika, zATI-paTIra,
zAtI-pracchada; Katyayana: zATaka; Patanjali: zATakaM;
Dhammapatha: ajina-sATI (v.394); Pali: sATa, sATikA, sATiya;
Jain: sADa, sADiA; Prakrit: sADi, Marathi: chATI, ....
The variations, z/s/ch and T/D suggest this word is a borrowal.

In Tamil, 1)kATikam = sAri 2) kATakam = sAri
(p. 425, N, KathiraiverpiLLai's Tamil-Tamil dictionary,
6th reprint, Delhi:AES, 1990).

Online Tamil Lexicon(OTL) entry:
-------------------------------------------------------------

kaTTu-tal

OTL kaTTu-tal 01 1. to tie, bind, fasten, shackle; 2. to build,
construct, fix, erect; 3. to establish, as a theory; 4. to hug,
embrace; 5. to support, sustain; 6. to tie on, adorn with; 7. to wear,
to be  dressed in; to put on, as clothes; 8. to remit, pay up; 9. to
acquire; 10. to fabricate, contrive, invent; 11. to harden, condense,
consolidate; 12. to store, gather together; 13. to bind by spells,
magic; 14. to suborn; 15. to compose, as verse; 16. to marry; 17. to
win, checkmate, overcome; 18. to fill, as a tank with water; 19. to
shut up, close up; 20. to export; 1. to harden, consolidate, form, as
concretions; to  congeal, coagulate; 2. to be congested, as the throat
in acute pharyngitis; 3. to swell, as a boil, a tumour or an
imposthume; 4. to be a bad omen, to portend misfortune; 5. to
overspread, as clouds; 6. to be  worth while, just paying; 7. to
compare with, to be equal
---------------------------------------------------------------

>?From the verb "kaTTu", kATikam (=sari), kaTikai and kaTakam are
formed. The OTL gives kaTikai = 1) curtain 2) necklace
3) bracelet 4) epaulete (an ancient ornament for man's shoulders).

For ancient usage on kaTikai, let us look into classical tamil texts:
a) pavaLak kaTikaiyiTai muttam kANtoRum (pati.)
b) kAn2ap paTamum, kAz Un2Ru kaTikaiyum (cil.)
c) pavaLak kaTikaiyil tavaLa vAL nakaiyum (maNi.)
d) kAlam kAmpu vayiram kaTikaiyan2 pon2kazal (tEv.)
e) valampuri vaLaiyoTu kaTikai nUl yAttu (neTunal.)
f) nIla maNi kaTikai vallikai yAttu (cIv.)
g) toTai amai pIli polinta kaTikai
   maTai amai tiN curai mATa kAz vEloTu (aka.)
h) tan2i maNi iraTTum tAL uTai kaTikai
   nuzai nuti neTu vEl kuRumpaTai mazavat (aka.)

>?From kuTTu (to strike) > kUTam (hammer).
On kuTTu > kUTam (hammer) and kuTTamukha, there is a lengthy paper
in L. Sternbach volume analyzing as dravidian.
Similarly, kaTTu (to wear, to tie) > kATikam (sAri).

Now, kAz/kAzam/kAzakam=cloth. Like 1) paTu (to sleep) > paTTi and
paLLi (=cattle shed, resting place) and 2) nADi and nAzi/nALi
(=reed, vein,  volume measure), kATakam and kAzakam alternate in
T and z(_l). From Classical Tamil,
"pularAk kAzakam pulara uTIi"(tirumuru. 184); here, kAzakam = sAri
"vin2aimAN kAzakam vIGkak kaTTi"(kali. 7); here, kAzakam = a hand
glove and this "kAzakam" is similar in meaning as for "kaTikai"
attested in CT.

zATI/sADaka have close relationship to tamil
kATikam(sAri)/kATakam(sAri)/kAzakam(cloth)/kAzakam(glove)/
kaTikai(cloth/bracelet/necklace)/kaTakam(armlet). The root verb
is kaTTu (to wear, to tie, etc.,)

Regards,
N. Ganesan



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From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Dec 19 11:18:37 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 99 11:18:37 +0000
Subject: The Fodder of First causes
Message-ID: <161227054550.23782.2763716502135549782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Obviously, first causes
> are a problem for everyone throughout the history of human thought.
>
> Edwin Bryant


I think the problem has been summed up very well.

I would like it to be pondered upon:

1. Are the First Causes really first in the numerical or empirical sense ?

2. Is the Sankrit term aadi or anaadi not more appropriate as it is not first but
original or premium , as in the Aristotelian Premium Mobile, the Initial Mover ?

3. If the first cause was really the first, then which is before the first? And hence
how does one solve the problem of endless regression?

 Therefore, what is more important are attributes (upadhiis) of the first as eplained
in a given system, be it Purusha, Brahma, or Nature (Physiki in the ancient Greek or in
the modern scientific sense).

The remarkable phenomenon about Saamkhya, Yoga and Vedanta is that they have been put to
a practical unification in Saadhanaa. Some would even say that there is no difference
(taatvika) among them, as the Giitaa too stated it.

Bharat Gupt




From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE  Sun Dec 19 11:56:26 1999
From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 99 12:56:26 +0100
Subject: astronomy
Message-ID: <161227054548.23782.3980681896377826965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. A. Karp, Dr.N. Ganesan et al.,

As I already wrote, so your quotation confirms: post-Alexandrine Indian
science is replete with Greek influence.  But not pre-Alexandrine Indian
science.  The names of the Zodiac signs semantically match the Babylonian
names but are pure Sanskrit, except that Mina,
"Pisces", is a Dravidian loan.  If it is correct that Dravidian influence
only appears in the mid-Rg-Vedic period (FBJ Kuiper), then we might deduce
that this one name, at least, is not older than that.  One can imagine that
for some
reason of fashion, Mina replaced an older Matsya or so, but that is pure
conjecture, and unlikely given the typical conservativeness of constellation
names.  So, perhaps this Dravidian input makes for a terminus postquem, but
it was at any rate centuries before Alexander and the influx of Greek ideas.

As for the ratio 3:2 between longest day and shortest night, this is equally
valid for places like Srinagar and Kabul, not just Babylon.  None other than
Rajesh Kochhar (The Vedic People, p.113) considers it "hard to believe" and
"unlikely" that such an observed value would have been transferred from
Babylon, overruling personal observation in India (or Afghanistan, as he
prefers) itself.  Moreover, measuring time with precision was more
difficult than measuring spatial degrees of arc in the sky even with the
naked eye, so we have to take this "18 muhurtas" (of a total of 30, hence
ratio 3:2) of the Vedanga Jyotisha with a pinch of salt, or rather with a
tolerance for serious inaccuracy, substantially widening the latitudinal
belt where this "measurement" might have been taken.  Note that
astrophysicist Kochhar confirms "about 1400 BC" (p.112) as the date of the
Vedanga Jyotisha.

The question about archaeo or literary evidence of astro observation is
important, and I join you in inviting more information about it.  But my
impression is that Vedic astronomy largely predated the technical stage.
Thus, the lunar asterisms are chosen for plain conspicuousness, even when
that means preferring a clear star pattern removed by ten degrees from the
ecliptic to an inconspicuous one lying right on the ecliptic; preferring
clear pictures in the sky over drab mathematically useful data (this in
contrast with the Chinese system).  Just my impression, for Subhash Kak's
work, by contrast, suggests a pre-existing advanced tradition of
observational astronomy.

Yours sincerely,
Koenraad Elst

http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 19 23:59:06 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 99 15:59:06 -0800
Subject: [q] iissara & iisvara
Message-ID: <161227054555.23782.7967173424533865052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Have a question:
In the sanskritization of iiza/iiSa/iissara to iizara, how is the
"v" in iizvara added? Is this common and any parallel examples
could be given? (I could think of ta. vi.la > bilva, but problen here
is -v- in bilva comes after an l. bilva is from vi.lam acc. to
Zvelebil, Intro. to dr. linguistics, 1990).

Are there instances where initial i/I/e gets dropped in IA? Eg.,
Could yakkha/yakSa be from words like iyakkha/isakkha/esakka, ...?

Thanks for any examples, thoughts,
N. Ganesan

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From jai at FLEX.COM  Mon Dec 20 07:17:32 1999
From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 99 21:17:32 -1000
Subject: astronomy
Message-ID: <161227054561.23782.2895053846654894816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste

"In 1853, the savant known as Erard-Mollien read before
the Institute of France a paper proving the antiquity of
the Indian Zodiac, in the signs of which were found the
root and philosophy of all the most important religious
festivals of that country; the scholar demonstrated that
the origin of these religious ceremonies goes back into
the night of time to at least 3,000 BCE.  The Zodiac of
the Hindus, he demonstrated, was long anterior to the
Zodiac of the Greeks, and differed from it much in some
particulars.  In it one sees the Dragon on a tree, at the
foot of which the Virgin, Kanya-Durga, one of the most
ancient Goddesses, is placed on a Lion dragging after it
the solar vehicle, the Rath.  He said: "'This is the
reason why this Virgin Durga is not the simple momento of
an astronomical fact, but verily the most ancient
divinity of the Indian Olympus.  She is evidently the
same whose return was announced in all the Sibylline
books -- the source of the inspiration of Virgil -- an
epoch of universal renovation. . . . And why, since the
months are still named after this Indian Zodiac, by the
Sanskrit-speaking people of India, should that people
have abandoned it to take that of the Greeks? Everything
proves, on the contrary, that these zodiacal figures were
transmitted to the Greeks by the Chaldeans who got them
from the Brahmins of India.'" [3]

 - "The Secret Doctrine" by H. P. Blavatsky.  See Recueil
de l' Acade'mie des Inscriptions, 1853, quoted in Des
Esprits, Tome iv, page 62.  See also:  Histoire
l'Astronomie Anciene by J.B.J. Delambre, 1817 Historical
View of Hindu Astronomy by John Bentley, 1825.

Jai Maharaj
jai at mantra.com
Om Shanti




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 20 13:18:08 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 99 05:18:08 -0800
Subject: karko.taka
Message-ID: <161227054568.23782.11157338882795425724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>NG>Does the MBh. or some other text tell about karkoTaka
>NG>and gemstones?

<<
According to my favourite search program (Examine 32), MBh mentions
KarkoTaka ten times. No gemstones (maNi) in vicinity (up to twenty
lines, 1600 characters).
Six times KarkoTaka appears in lists enumerating the names of great
serpents (I,31.5;  I,114.60; II,9.9; V,101.9; VIII,30.45; XVI,5.14).
Four times in a narrative context (Story of Nala - III, 63.4,9,13;
III, 70,27). Interestingly - in connection with Kali. Conscious
word-play -kal/r-koTa(ka)~kali?
>>

Is maNimat also a nAgam appearing in the MBh. lists?
maNimat = jewel-ful?? Perhaps, jives with 'gem-giver' explaining?

   "The close connection between the various classes of evil
   demons and spiritual powers not exactly evil and yet not
   divine enough to be regarded as gods will often be a subject of
   special remark. This is sufficiently illustrated by the
   interchange of the same name among various groups. Thus
   in MBh. the RAkSasa MaNimat is a friend of Kubera, and
   MaNimat is also a name of a YakSa, of a Naaga; and of a
   king who is reborn as such after existing as vRtra, while
   MaNimat designates a Daitya-town (in both epics MaNimat
   is a mountain). It seems that certain characters stood
   out more as individuals than as fixed members of a group
   and that such individuals are sometimes considered as
   belonging to one and sometimes to another group."
   (Hopkins, Epic mythology, p. 38)

Appreciations on data on nAgas giving out jewels in Hindu, Jain
or Buddhist sources.

Kind regards,
N. Ganesan

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From hart at POLBOX.COM  Mon Dec 20 05:31:21 1999
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 99 06:31:21 +0100
Subject: [q] iissara & iisvara
In-Reply-To: <19991219235906.5168.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054559.23782.12304653167990673050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 15:59 99-12-19 -0800, N. Ganesan wrote:

>Have a question:
>In the sanskritization of iiza/iiSa/iissara to iizara, how is the
>"v" in iizvara added? Is this common and any parallel examples
>could be given?


Compare OIA azva --> MIA assa. Reverse change of  VssV (with its suspect
geminate)  into VzvV (which agrees with the OIA morpho-phonemic pattern)
would produce nice Sanskrit-like hyper-correct forms. See CDIAL <Phonetic
Analysis>, OUP, London 1971, where convenient lists of OIA words containing
particular sound or sound group; on p. 229 a list of  ~ss~ and ~ss- words,
all of them reconstructed by Turner and classed as "defectives".

BTW, MIA cannot have Issara (iissara), but only issara (as in Pali) or Isara
(Prakrit), CDIAL 1619; unlike OIA, consonantal clusters in MIA may be
preceded  by only short vowels.

With regards,

Artur Karp
University of Warsaw
Poland






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w pierwszej internetowej symulacji rynku finansowego w Polsce.
Inwestujesz wirtualnie wygrywasz realnie http://www.pieniadz.pl
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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Mon Dec 20 15:16:37 1999
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 99 07:16:37 -0800
Subject: astronomy
Message-ID: <161227054570.23782.8529829956010989789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mme. Blavatsky is outdated.

--- "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai at FLEX.COM> wrote:
> Namaste
>
> "In 1853, the savant known as Erard-Mollien read before
> the Institute of France a paper proving the antiquity of
> the Indian Zodiac, in the signs of which were found the
> root and philosophy of all the most important religious
> festivals of that country; the scholar demonstrated that
> the origin of these religious ceremonies goes back into
> the night of time to at least 3,000 BCE.  The Zodiac of
> the Hindus, he demonstrated, was long anterior to the
> Zodiac of the Greeks, and differed from it much in some
> particulars.  In it one sees the Dragon on a tree, at the
> foot of which the Virgin, Kanya-Durga, one of the most
> ancient Goddesses, is placed on a Lion dragging after it
> the solar vehicle, the Rath.  He said: "'This is the
> reason why this Virgin Durga is not the simple momento of
> an astronomical fact, but verily the most ancient
> divinity of the Indian Olympus.  She is evidently the
> same whose return was announced in all the Sibylline
> books -- the source of the inspiration of Virgil -- an
> epoch of universal renovation. . . . And why, since the
> months are still named after this Indian Zodiac, by the
> Sanskrit-speaking people of India, should that people
> have abandoned it to take that of the Greeks? Everything
> proves, on the contrary, that these zodiacal figures were
> transmitted to the Greeks by the Chaldeans who got them
> from the Brahmins of India.'" [3]
>
>  - "The Secret Doctrine" by H. P. Blavatsky.  See Recueil
> de l' Acade'mie des Inscriptions, 1853, quoted in Des
> Esprits, Tome iv, page 62.  See also:  Histoire
> l'Astronomie Anciene by J.B.J. Delambre, 1817 Historical
> View of Hindu Astronomy by John Bentley, 1825.
>
> Jai Maharaj
> jai at mantra.com
> Om Shanti
>

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From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Mon Dec 20 09:30:17 1999
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 99 10:30:17 +0100
Subject: [q] iissara & iisvara
In-Reply-To: <19991219235906.5168.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054563.23782.1191313591408872428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 19 Dec 99, at 15:59, N. Ganesan wrote:

> In the sanskritization of iiza/iiSa/iissara to iizara, how is the
> "v" in iizvara added?
It is not added: Skt. ii"svara > Pkt. issara (Skt. -"sv- > Pkt. -ss-;
assimilation) [or: iisara].
Formation: Skt. ii"s- ``ruling" + Suffix -(t)vara/-(t)vala  (cf. i-
tvara ``going"; kar-vara ``work"; vid-vala ``intelligent"; gah-vara
``deep; depth"; bhaas-vara ``shining"; etc.)

> Are there instances where initial i/I/e gets dropped in IA?
In enclitics, e.g.: Paali va (Skt. iva and eva), ti (iti), daani
(idaaniim); perhaps fixed sandhi forms.

With kind regards,
Roland Steiner




From jai at FLEX.COM  Mon Dec 20 20:58:13 1999
From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 99 10:58:13 -1000
Subject: astronomy
Message-ID: <161227054578.23782.14119319945717670771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Swaminathan Madhuresan" <smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM> wrote
 on Monday, December 20, 1999
>
> Mme. Blavatsky is outdated.

Namaste, is "Yesterdays Are Outdated" the slogan of the
upcoming Naught-Naught Generation beginning the year 2000?  :)

Jai Maharaj
jai at mantra.com
Om Shanti




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Dec 20 11:02:55 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 99 11:02:55 +0000
Subject: Forwarded announcement: Upcoming conference on Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227054565.23782.5573914114602581773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:59:19 -0800
From: Prof. Saroja Bhate <saroja at unipune.ernet.in>
Subject: announcement reg. A three day Seminar, Pune and AIOC , Chennai

??????? A three day Seminar on christian Contribution to Sanskrit
Studies will be organized in the forth week of March 2000 in Pune as a
part of Sanskrita Varssha celebrations. Please send your suggestions to
Saroja Bhate.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Dec 20 11:03:47 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 99 11:03:47 +0000
Subject: Forwarded announcement: upcoming All India Oriental Conference
Message-ID: <161227054566.23782.15248438610252526497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:59:19 -0800
From: Prof. Saroja Bhate <saroja at unipune.ernet.in>

Subject: announcement AIOC , Chennai

??? The 40th Session of All India Oriental Conference will be held in
Chennai from 28th to 30th May 2000. For further details please contact
Saroja? Bhate.
?




From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE  Mon Dec 20 05:45:50 1999
From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 99 11:15:50 +0530
Subject: The Fodder of First causes
Message-ID: <161227054557.23782.5304386186590543711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:50:50 -0500, Edwin Bryant wrote:

> If the Jiva is distinct from an eternal Isvara in so far as the jiva is
> subject to maya while the former is not, then how did jiva find itself
> under the influence of Maya? If Isvara placed it there (and Madhva is
> indeed peculiar here in his extreme position of jivas being placed in
> samsara for eternity), then Isvara is cruel.

At the risk of nit-picking, maybe I should add that (a) Madhva's notion
of maayaa differs from the Advaitic, to such an extent that he wrote a
text titled _Maayaavaadakha.n.dana_ (i.e., a refutation of Advaitic
illusionism); (b) only one of three categories of jiivas is termed
nityasa.msaarin (the other two being muktiyogya and tamoyogya);
(c) this 'jiivatraividhya' is considered simply the way things are, and a
notion of 'cruelty' is a projection of human sentiments where they are
not appropriate (this kind of explanation is also found in other theistic
traditions).

The question of a first cause could also be explained away in a
similar manner as (c). Perhaps not intellectually satisfying, but it's a
possibility.

RZ




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 20 20:53:18 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 99 12:53:18 -0800
Subject: assimilation
Message-ID: <161227054575.23782.15429628757614955754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. Witzel, Substrates in OIA, 1999
<<<
        Though certain geminates, especially in word formation and
flexion (-tt-, -dd-, -nn- etc.), are allowed and common, they hardly
ever appear in the stem of a word (Sandhi cases such as anna, sanna
etc. of course excepted). Until the late BrAhmaNa texts, other
geminates, especially bb, dd, gg, jj, mm, ll, but also kk, pp, etc.,
are studiously avoided, except in the few loan words mentioned above
(pippala, gulgulu, katkaTa etc. (Kuiper 1991: 67 sqq.).
        It will be readily seen that Kuiper's seminal observation
reflects a tendency that can be observed throughout the Vedic texts.
Geminates, especially the mediae, apparently were regarded, with the
exception of a few inherited forms such as majj 'to dive under', as
'foreign' or 'barbaric'. They did not agree with the contemporary
Vedic (and even my own) feeling of correct speech (Sprachgefu"hl).
        However, starting with Epic Sanskrit, forms such as galla,
malla, palla, etc. are normal and very common (however, -mm-, perhaps
regarded as Drav.(?) remains rare); such words, in part derive from
normal MIA developments, in part from the substrate.
>>>

  Old Tamil 'rum' and 'run' changes to 'mm' and '_n_n'. In parallel
ways, Sanskrit 'rm' and 'rN' assimilates into 'mm' and '.n.n'.
Examples were  given under 'Tamil and Prakrit Consonant Assimilation'
(#438, June 1999). Comments of Prof. Parpola and Prof. K. Nachimuthu
are in Indology posts, #431 and #203 (June 1999). With the march of
Time, we see  words with -mm- and -.n.n-, Is this due to drav.
influence?

Regards,
N. Ganesan


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From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Dec 20 19:49:13 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 99 14:49:13 -0500
Subject: looking for Rita Goldman
Message-ID: <161227054573.23782.5666575577422599369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could anyone help me in finding Rita Goldman, who was at the U.S.
Embassy in Kathmandu in the 1950s?  State Dept. sources have not been
able to help me.  A cultural institution in Nepal would like to
contact her in connection with tapes she made of the great Nepali poet
Laxmi Prasad Devkota.

Thanks,

Allen Thrasher




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Tue Dec 21 01:57:43 1999
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 99 20:57:43 -0500
Subject: Vaishnavism & Saivism
Message-ID: <161227054580.23782.7380505560782072593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Krishna Kalale <kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM> wrote:

> There may be some tamil works on this topic, which I am not familiar
with.
>  Personally I prefer sanskrit books since I am not comfortable in
tamil.

The following may be useful:

1. Sivadvaita of Srikantha, by S.S.Suryanarayana Sastri, University of
Madras, 1972.

2. The Sivadvaita Nirnaya of Appayya Dikshita, Edited with an
Introduction, Translation and Notes, by S.S.Suryanarayana Sastri,
University of Madras, 1974.

3. Saivaparibhasa of Sivagrayogin, English translation by
S.S.Suryanarayana Sastri, University of Madras, 1982.

Generally, Saivite authors (at least in the Sanskrit) are more
inclusivistic than Vaishnavite authors. This fact has been noted for
eg., by Jan Gonda. For example, the Saiva Nilakantha, who has also
written a brahmasUtrabhAshhya, considers vishhNu to be the cit-shakti
of shiva and hence fit to be adored. The same view point is adopted
(previously held?) by bhaTTa-bhAskara mishra in his
taittirIya-AraNyaka bhAshhya. Prof. S.S.Suryanarayana Sastri gives the
relevant details about the astounding similarities between Srikantha's
views and Bhatta bhAskara's views in his books.  bhaTTa bhAskara
mishra's commentary on the yajur-veda has been edited and published by
Alladi Mahadeva Sastri. It has been reprinted by Motilal also. The
above books have some details about the supremacy of shiva over
vishhNu, but not too much.

A more polemical author seems to be haradatta shivAchArya. I have not
read any of his works.  A brief summary of his life and the relevant
polemical works can be found in:
"Haradatta misra and Haradatta Sivacarya," Collected Papers of
S.S.Suryanarayana Sastri, pp. 375-380, University of Madras, 1961.

If you have any other references on this topic, I'd appreciate it if
you could post them.

Rama




From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Dec 21 04:24:11 1999
From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 99 23:24:11 -0500
Subject: Madhva
In-Reply-To: <199912200626.LAA16532@mbg.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227054582.23782.3271614120815042107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Robert Zydenbos wrote:

> (b) only one of three categories of jiivas is termed nityasa.msaarin
> (the other two being muktiyogya and tamoyogya);

I have been trying to track down Madhva's sastric basis for this.  I seem
to remember reading that it is Gita 16: 19-20, but, in my edition of his
Gita (an English translation published by the Poornaprajna Vidyapeetha) he
does not refer to the nityasa.msArin's here.  However, if I understand
correctly, he wrote three commentaries on the Gita (one of them a mini
one). Can anyone throw light on his authority for this category of jiva
(I know you're in Madhva territory, Robert)?

> (c) this 'jiivatraividhya' is considered simply the way things are,
> and a notion of 'cruelty' is a projection of human sentiments where
> they are not appropriate (this kind of explanation is also found in
> other theistic traditions).

Well, saying that it this is simply the way things are is not a
philosophical argument. So Madhva's basis for this belief must have been
sabda since it can hardly be supported by anumana or pratyaksa.  Anyway,
as has been pointed out, all schools consider their ultimate causes to be
the way things are, viz, eternal, so introducing a terminus a quo of
eternality does not distinguish any of them, nor further their
philosophical position.

As for the cruelty arguments being a projection of human sentiments onto
God, as far as I can recall the argument (and I don't have the source,
here) the point seemed to be that the theists *themselves* consider God to
be compassionate and equanimous -- ie not cruel (theists certainly assign
*positive* human sentiments to the Godhead).  Accordingly, since this is
the theistic premise, how can the jiva be suffering in samsara?  If Isvara
decided to put it there, how can he be considered compassionate?  And if
jiva put itself there, from whence the original act of karma, etc, etc?

Whatever the value of such arguments, the point of quoting them was simply
to acknowledge that Sankara is not the only one who has to take recourse
of notions of anirvacaniya and eternality, etc.

Edwin Bryant




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 21 15:46:11 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 99 07:46:11 -0800
Subject: dakinis
Message-ID: <161227054586.23782.2451322774876617743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. S. Hodge asks:
>.. many languages have onomatopoeic words like the ones I
>gave for drumming.  However, do these words also have apparent
>cognates with the meaning of "shaman"/"witch" etc ? ...

Apart from attestation of Daakini(iTAkin2i) in 4-5th cent.
CilappatikAram, a study of the "tAkkaNaGku" concept in Sangam
literature will prove useful. Online Tamil Lexicon entry:

tAkkaNagku 1. a goddess who smites men with love; 2. Laks2mi1
-------------------------------------------------------------
tAkkaNagku a class of female goblins attendant on Pa1rvati1
dist fr. no1kkan2an3ku (TLS)
------------------------------------------------------------------

The "tAkku"(beat, strike, attack) type words are many in dravidian;
Classical Tamil does not allow .t/.d as initial letter in a word.
That "tAkku" is usually attached with the female goblin, "aNangu".
The tAkkaNangu/aNangu concept in Classical Tamil texts is an enigma
and figures many times; For two different views, see G. L. Hart,
Poems of Ancient Tamil and V. S. Rajam's paper on aNaGku in JAOS.

Perhaps, a relation between "beating/striking" (people? drums?)
and "witch/goblin" in tAkkaNangu of Sangam poems (3rd cent. BCE-3rd
cent. CE).

Regards,
N. Ganesan


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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 21 16:19:55 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 99 08:19:55 -0800
Subject: dakinis
Message-ID: <161227054589.23782.15882325786501640173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For Daakini connected to drum-beating and shamanism, the tamil noun
"tAkku = drum-stick" and the corr. verb, "tAkku = to attack/to attach/
to affect/to give command/to order" is relevant. After all,
the beating shamans give out commands to folks in their domain.

pl. also take a look at:
1)Takku = trick, pretence, affectation
2)takku = dodge, trick
3)tAkku = drum-stick
4)tAkku = to attack, to attach, to affect, to order

Regards,
N. Ganesan

                     Cologne Tamil Online Lexicon (OTL)
Takku

otl Takku Takku 01 1. dodge, trick, pretence; 2. affecctation
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
takku

otl takku takku 04 dodge trick
  ----------------------------------------------------------

tAkku

otl tAkku tAkku 02 1. attack, assault; 2. beat, dash, blow, clash;
3. fight; 4. army, forces; 5. reaction, rebound; 6. impetus, force,
momentum; 7. affecting, as one's mind; 8. heavy weight, heaviness;
9. robustness, stoutness, corpulency; 10. application; 11. drum-stick;
12. multiplication; 13. plot of land; rice field; 14. place;
15. vault, cellar
  -------------------------------------------------------------

tAkku

otl tAkku tAkku 03 1. attachment; 2. order, command
  --------------------------------------------------------------

takku-tal

otl takku-tal takku-tal 01 to be fit, suitable, becoming
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
takku-tal

otl takku-tal takku-tal 02 1. to come to stay; to become permanent;
to be lasting, as a possession or acquisition; to be retained; 2. to
be profitable, advantageous, beneficial
  --------------------------------------------------------------

tAkku-tal

otl tAkku-tal tAkku-tal 01 1. to come in contact, collide, strike
against, as a vessel on a rock; 2. to affect, as one's interest or
health; 3. to be severe, harsh, as in reproof; 4. to take revenge;
5. to interfere; 6. to involve, as consequences; 7. to increase; 8.
to fall heavily, as charges, expenses; to press heavily, as a burden,
as responsibility; 9. to react, rebound; 10. to hobble, limp; 1. to
attack, assault; 2. to strike, beat, dash; 3. to cut, off; 4. to butt;
5. to pounce or dart upon, attack, charge; 6. to touch, strike, come
in contact with, as heat; to burst on the sight, as lightning; to beat
against; to penetrate, as a sting; 7. to rest upon, depend on, lean
against; 8. to adjust or settle, as accounts; to increase the profits
of an article; to make up for losses; 9. to multiply; 10. to consume,
drink
  -------------------------------------------------------------------

takku-tal

otl takku-tal takku-tal to yield; to be submissive (TLS)

---------------------------------------------------------


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From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Tue Dec 21 16:57:32 1999
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 99 11:57:32 -0500
Subject: Madhva
Message-ID: <161227054591.23782.10649893588665748662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Martin Gansten <Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE> wrote:

> I don't know if this is the source you have in mind, but the
question of
> Brahman's/Isvara's cruelty and partiality is raised in Brahmasutra
> 2.1.34-35, and the charge refuted precisely on the grounds of the
> beginninglessness of karman. In other words, there is no 'original
act'. (I
> do not have Madhva's bhashya at hand, but at least Ramanuja and
Baladeva
> both agree on this point.)

But RamanujAchArya accepts that it is possible for the souls to get
out of transmigration by the proper means, i.e., the grace of
Narayana, the supreme God. I am aware that there are some doctrinal
differences regarding this grace between the vaDakaLai and tenkaLai
schools, but both admit that no soul is apriori forbidden from
achieving salvation. Only some may take more time than others.

 I think the original remark was made about Madhvas doctrine (unique
in the Vedantic schools) that some souls cannot achieve salvation
period, whatever they do. Neo-Vedantins who are admirers of Madhva,
like S.S.Raghavachar, quietly ignore this fact because it gives a
"notion of cruelty" (as RZ put it), at the expense of philosophical
correctness. See for example his monograph on dvaita published by the
University of Madras. Bannanje Govindacharya also quietly glosses over
this fact in his monograph published by the Poorna Prajna Vidyapeetha.
I think it is worthy enough of mention as an important feature of
Madhvas eschatology, even in a brief monograph. I don't know if
Baladeva accepts this view point of Madhva.

Rama




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Tue Dec 21 12:27:03 1999
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 99 13:27:03 +0100
Subject: Madhva
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.10.9912202223580.22269-100000@is06.fas.harvard. edu>
Message-ID: <161227054584.23782.832653890815692855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>As for the cruelty arguments being a projection of human sentiments onto
>God, as far as I can recall the argument (and I don't have the source,
>here) the point seemed to be that the theists *themselves* consider God to
>be compassionate and equanimous -- ie not cruel (theists certainly assign
>*positive* human sentiments to the Godhead).  Accordingly, since this is
>the theistic premise, how can the jiva be suffering in samsara?  If Isvara
>decided to put it there, how can he be considered compassionate?  And if
>jiva put itself there, from whence the original act of karma, etc, etc?

I don't know if this is the source you have in mind, but the question of
Brahman's/Isvara's cruelty and partiality is raised in Brahmasutra
2.1.34-35, and the charge refuted precisely on the grounds of the
beginninglessness of karman. In other words, there is no 'original act'. (I
do not have Madhva's bhashya at hand, but at least Ramanuja and Baladeva
both agree on this point.)

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET  Tue Dec 21 23:34:43 1999
From: sstephen at MEDICALNET.NET (S Stephen)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 99 18:34:43 -0500
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054595.23782.206595754441974733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> SaRi, as it is worn in North (with head covered) appears
> ro have Greek influence. perhaps there is some relationship
> between the SaRi and the dress worn in Ethiopia/Sudan.

How old is the North Indian head covering tradition? I have read somewhere
(unable to recall the title of the book) that this tradition developed to
protect the women folk from invaders from the North West.

Which word is older, Tamil cElai or Sanskri saa.Rii?

Sujata




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Wed Dec 22 01:57:52 1999
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 99 18:57:52 -0700
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
In-Reply-To: <386040A4.20035A73@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <161227054599.23782.2126832949265666776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sujata asked:

> How old is the North Indian head covering tradition? I have
>read somewhere (unable to recall the title of the book) that
>this tradition developed to protect the women folk from invaders
>from the North West.

>Which word is older, Tamil cElai or Sanskri saa.Rii?

I remeber having read somewhere that covered head first
appeared in Gandhar due to Indo-Greek influence. It probably
did not get popular until the Turkish conquest. It was common
for native women to be taken by the taken by the the nobility,
and thus covering the head might have been a safeguard.

I do remeber having seen some Gandharan sculpture with
women covering the head. Perhaps through the Roman
influence, the Greek custom had also propagated to
Ethipia[1].

saa.Rii is from shaaTii, which originally should have
meant just a cloth. The Jain monks called eka-shaaTak
wore it on the shoulder (as suggested by Mathura sculptures
of 1-3rd AD).

Sanskrit "chaila(m)" also means a cloth, the Digambara
monks were sometimes referred to as "achailaka". I am
not sure which of the two words is related to the
Tamil term.

Regarding idol of Ambika, the Jain mother Goddess[2],
I have seen her portrayed only without head cover
(in sculpture).Is there a photograph showing her with
head covered somewhere? Incidentally, N. Ganeshan mentioned
that  Sankara etc, are shown with head covered. Covering
the head was also a convention among Jain Bhattarakas
until recently, as one can see from the photographs.

Yashwant

[1] But I'm not sure why there is significant
similarity between Ethiopian and Indian cooking.

[2]
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9912&L=indology&D=1&O=D&F=&S=
&P=18681




From safar at PRODIGY.NET  Wed Dec 22 03:08:21 1999
From: safar at PRODIGY.NET (Sunil Mehta)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 99 19:08:21 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054597.23782.7699495093096066554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

SaRi is  not a Sanskrit word, although it has been derived from Sanskrit.  The
sanskrit words are Shaatee, Shatyaa or Shaatah, all meaning cloth worn on the
lower part of the body.  Uttariyam is worn on the upper part of the body and
Adho-vastra on the lower.

I wonder if you are confusing curtain or Purdah (veil) with SaRi.  The
curtain, as used in drama, is indeed of Greek origin and is called Yavanika in
Sanskrit.  Yavanas means Greek, the people.  The puradh or the veil, that
covers not just the head but the face also,  has Islamic/Judaeo-Christain
genealogy (Dance of the Seven Veils).  Protecting women from invaders from the
north west, many of whom came wielding Quran and a sword, was definitely one
motive.


Sunil Mehta

S Stephen wrote:

> > SaRi, as it is worn in North (with head covered) appears
> > ro have Greek influence. perhaps there is some relationship
> > between the SaRi and the dress worn in Ethiopia/Sudan.
>
> How old is the North Indian head covering tradition? I have read somewhere
> (unable to recall the title of the book) that this tradition developed to
> protect the women folk from invaders from the North West.
>
> Which word is older, Tamil cElai or Sanskri saa.Rii?
>
> Sujata




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Wed Dec 22 03:08:21 1999
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 99 20:08:21 -0700
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
In-Reply-To: <38618B57.730EB576@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227054603.23782.6361412226420296710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It was  common for women to cover heads in Greece and Rome
even before adoptation of Christianity.

See the links below (sorry, you might have to reconnect broken
parts of urls).

Yashwant

http://www.dl.ket.org/latin1/things/romanlife/index.htm

http://www.tulane.edu/~hughl/Period.Styles/Costumes/text/Greece/CB22.html

http://www.tulane.edu/~hughl/Period.Styles/Costumes/text/Rome/CC46.html

http://www.tulane.edu/~hughl/Period.Styles/Costumes/text/Rome/CC39.html

http://www.tulane.edu/~hughl/Period.Styles/Costumes/text/Early.Christian/CD2
1.html

-----
Isn't the Greek and Roman practice of women covering their heads adopted
after Christianity was adopted?  I can't remember many statues of
ancient Greek or Roman women with covered heads.

Head coverings were worn in ancient times (by both men and women) in
Egypt and neighboring areas of East Africa, the Levant and North Africa.
Maybe originally as protection against the desert sun.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala




From garzilli at SHORE.NET  Wed Dec 22 02:38:27 1999
From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 99 21:38:27 -0500
Subject: Asiatica Ass: EJVS
Message-ID: <161227054593.23782.11704454639066194677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

I am glad to announce that the Asiatica Association mirrors
the                 *Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies*.

You can access it through http://www.asiatica.org
or http://www.asiatica.org/publications/ejvs/

Access to the EJVS is free.

Happy reading, and Happy Holidays!

--
Dr. Enrica Garzilli                 University of Perugia (ITALY)
Istituto di Linguistica                      Piazza Morlacchi, 11
06123 Perugia                  Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office)
Editor-in-Chief,
Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies
http://www.asiatica.org/
*****************************************************************




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 22 12:47:30 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 99 04:47:30 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054607.23782.1164280821856263633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<<
Regarding idol of Ambika, the Jain mother Goddess[2],
I have seen her portrayed only without head cover
(in sculpture).Is there a photograph showing her with
head covered somewhere? Incidentally, N. Ganeshan mentioned
that  Sankara etc, are shown with head covered. Covering
the head was also a convention among Jain Bhattarakas
until recently, as one can see from the photographs.
>>>

One example of a mother, like Jain Ambikaa, covering her
head by a veil is in the Los Angeles County Museum of Art.
Pratapaditya Pal published it first time.
See Fig. 88, SkandamAtA from Tanesara-MahAdeva, sixth/early
seventh century. Grey Schist. p. 115, J. C. Harle, The art
and architecture of the Indian subcontinent.
This beautiful sculpture looks Guptan to my eyes. I have other examples too,
but have to search in my library.

I am sure art historians will be able to tell more on the veil like
head covers on early Indian art, Are Rabe, Storm around??
On Sankaracharya's portraits or modern Sankaracharyas,
Shri. Vidyasankar is surely the person.

What is the web address for the list discussing South Asian art
and history?

Thanks,
N. Ganesan



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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 22 15:00:55 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 99 07:00:55 -0800
Subject: jODu, jODi
Message-ID: <161227054611.23782.18298388096063553904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Kannada (and Tamil), jODu= match, country shoes/slippers
and jODi=pair, couple, ... Are these words in any other?
In Telugu? In Hindi?

The j- and -D- could be c- and -T- and various combinations
are possible.

Thanks for any answer,
N. Ganesan

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 22 16:08:09 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 99 08:08:09 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054614.23782.5836031060005489256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There are examples with some kind of veil on women, possibly about
1000 years earlier than the 6-7th cent. skandamAtA from Tanesara.
Look at the head cloth in Fig.3 and Fig. 5 of yakSIs from Besnagar.
"Among the earliest sculptures of this type are two yakSas from Patna,
a yakSI from Besnagar (Figure 3), and the caurI or fly-whisk bearer
(who may or may not be a yakSI) from Didarganj (Figure 4). Because
of the characteristic use of highly polished Chunar sandstone in the
Patna and Didarganj sculptures, they are thought to have been carved
during Mauryan period (322-182 B.C.). These sculptures all exhibit,
in addition to their massive physical extension, a "monumental"
stiffness. This archaic quality of immobility persists in other,
post-Mauryan (first century B.C.) freestanding statues as well, such
as another yakSI from the Besnagar area (figure 5)".
p.14,Gail Sutherland, 1991.

Even the bhArhUt yakSI looks as though her head is covered
with a turban tightly adorned with pearls. Reminds of Madurai
Meenakshi's pearl "koNDai".

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 22 13:23:29 1999
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 99 08:23:29 -0500
Subject: Demonstrative  pronoun   sasmAd
Message-ID: <161227054609.23782.3952334649131985813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

Macdonell in his vedic grammar for students section 110, Whitney 495 b note
that the demonstrative pronoun sasmAd occurs once and only once in the
sanskrit literature and that the occurance is in the Chandogya Upanishad.
Brugmann in his comparative grammar section 409 mentions the occurance of
sasmin instead of tasmin in the vedic but doesn't mention sasmAd as far as I
can see.

Can someone give me the verse in the Chandogya Upanishad where this occurs.
(A search on string "sasm" in the itrans version on the sanskrit documents
page didn't turn up anything)

Also does anyone have an explanation/theory why this lone occurance of
"sasmAd" in the sanskrit literature and that occuring in the stage of the
literature that it does.

Many thanks,

Harry Spier
371 Brickman Road
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747
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From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Wed Dec 22 15:29:33 1999
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 99 10:29:33 -0500
Subject: jODu, jODi
Message-ID: <161227054612.23782.5822342784125813980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

jODi means pair in hindi etc.

jOD means to join in probably all north Indian languages.




From c_austi at ALCOR.CONCORDIA.CA  Wed Dec 22 22:20:59 1999
From: c_austi at ALCOR.CONCORDIA.CA (Chris Austin)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 99 17:20:59 -0500
Subject: Address of Dr.Ashok Aklujkar
In-Reply-To: <38625DD8.EF8BDF90@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227054625.23782.15132746656080233011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr.Aklujkar, are you still on this forum? Can anyone tell me how I can
reach Dr. Aklujkar? Neither of the following two addresses appear to be in
operation:

aklujkar at unixq.ubc.ca
fo8z003 at public.uni-hamburg.de

Thanks
Chris Austin
Concordia University
Department of Religion
Montreal, Canada
c_austi at alcor.concordia.ca




From kekai at JPS.NET  Thu Dec 23 02:39:20 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 99 18:39:20 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054601.23782.9131590099512461815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yashwant Malaiya wrote:
>
> I do remeber having seen some Gandharan sculpture with
> women covering the head. Perhaps through the Roman
> influence, the Greek custom had also propagated to
> Ethipia[1].

> Yashwant
>
> [1] But I'm not sure why there is significant
> similarity between Ethiopian and Indian cooking.
>

Yashwant,

Isn't the Greek and Roman practice of women covering their heads adopted
after Christianity was adopted?  I can't remember many statues of
ancient Greek or Roman women with covered heads.

Head coverings were worn in ancient times (by both men and women) in
Egypt and neighboring areas of East Africa, the Levant and North Africa.
Maybe originally as protection against the desert sun.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From kekai at JPS.NET  Thu Dec 23 05:09:26 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 99 21:09:26 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054605.23782.10998463299854655413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Yashwant wrote:

Thanks, I haven't seen these costumes before. It seems that pads
were often worn on top of the head under the veil.

I still can't help but feel that the head covering came more into
vogue after the beginning of the Muslim period. Looking at the artwork
you really get that impression although there were exceptions like
the Gandharan statues you mentioned earlier.

What keeps coming to mind are the paintings of Ajanta as compared to
the latter Rajput or Mogul works .

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

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From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Wed Dec 22 20:47:01 1999
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 99 21:47:01 +0100
Subject: Madhva
In-Reply-To: <199912221945.AAA13386@mbg.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227054623.23782.5029814861235244885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>BNK Sharma (_The Philosophy of Sri Madhvacarya_, Delhi 1991, p.
>295) claims that a section among the followers of Raamaanuja
>recognised the existence of nityasa.msaarins, and he quotes from
>Vedaantade;sika's Tattvamuktaakalaapa: "iha sayuuthyaa.h, pare ca
>kecid aahu.h ita.h puurvam iva pa;scaad api kecit na mok.syante" ...
>I don't have
>Vedaantade;sika's text at my disposal to check who those "kecid
>[aahu.h]" are. Can anyone shed light on this?

I don't have the TMK either, but SMS Chari in his 'Fundamentals of
Visistadvaita Vedanta' (based on the TMK) quotes the same passage, stating
that 'This view is held by a section of Visistadvaitins and Madhvas'.
Desika refutes it, however, and I doubt that one could find much in
Ramanuja's writings to support a nityasamsaarin doctrine.

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE  Wed Dec 22 19:04:56 1999
From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 00:34:56 +0530
Subject: Madhva
Message-ID: <161227054622.23782.17921368901162219536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:24:11 -0500, Edwin Bryant wrote:

> > (b) only one of three categories of jiivas is termed nityasa.msaarin
> > (the other two being muktiyogya and tamoyogya);
>
> I have been trying to track down Madhva's sastric basis for this.  I seem
> to remember reading that it is Gita 16: 19-20, but, in my edition of his
> Gita (an English translation published by the Poornaprajna Vidyapeetha)

(That must be the one by BNK Sharma, which I frankly find too free:
Madhva is there in the translation, but also his commentator
Jayatiirtha, and also some things that I do not see in Jayatiirtha
either.) In his _Philosophy of Sri Madhvacarya_ (Delhi: M.
Banarsidass, 1991 repr.) Sharma has devoted two chapters to this
matter, of which ch. 35 is titled "Textual Evidence of Intrinsic
Gradation among Souls", in which he lists 23 passages from the RV,
Taittiriiyopani.sat, Ii;sopani.sat, BhG, BhPur, Mbh and Paa;ncaraatra
texts. That there would be 3 classes of souls seems to be linked to
the Saa:nkhyan idea of the gu.nas.

> However, if I understand correctly, he wrote three commentaries on
> the Gita (one of them a mini one).

(The A.nubhaa.sya is on the Brahmasuutras. Madhva wrote two
commentaries on the BhG.)

> Well, saying that it this is simply the way things are is not a
> philosophical argument. So Madhva's basis for this belief must have been
> sabda since it can hardly be supported by anumana or pratyaksa.

Yes, passages like one quoted from the Paramasa.mhitaa:

nityadu.hkha.m susampuur.na.m nirastaanandam avyayam
tamo yaanty anyathaaj;naanaad dve.saad vaa Harisa.m;srayaat

which Sharma (p. 301) says appears in Madhva's comm. on the
Bhaagavatapuraa.na.

> As for the cruelty arguments being a projection of human sentiments
> onto God, as far as I can recall the argument (and I don't have the
> source, here) the point seemed to be that the theists *themselves*
> consider God to be compassionate and equanimous -- ie not cruel
> (theists certainly assign *positive* human sentiments to the
> Godhead).

But God is also not human (this is what makes him God :-)... ), and
so besides positive human sentiments he may have things that
humans find hard to understand. Sharma in his ch. 34 is quite
adamant, in his somewhat militantly apologetic style, that "The
doctrine of Traividhya is no doubt an unpleasant truth, uncomfortable
to some. That cannot be helped." (p. 298). The problem, if there is
any, will be similar to that of Calvinist Christianity, which is still less
'compassionate'. I would not be surprised if the reasons for this kind
of thinking in Madhva and Calvin are similar.

RZ




From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE  Wed Dec 22 19:04:57 1999
From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 00:34:57 +0530
Subject: Vaishnavism & Saivism
Message-ID: <161227054618.23782.9945436677441808617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:57:43 -0500, Ramakrishnan
Balasubramanian wrote:

> Generally, Saivite authors (at least in the Sanskrit) are more
> inclusivistic than Vaishnavite authors. [...]

"Generally" -- maybe, though I don't know how that would have to be
established. My favourite inclusivistic verse is from Madhva's
K.r.s.naam.rtamahaar.nava:

Arcitaas sarvadevaas syur yatas sarvagato Hari.h (vs. 9)

I think we'll have a hard time finding something more inclusivistic than
that!

RZ




From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE  Wed Dec 22 19:04:57 1999
From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 00:34:57 +0530
Subject: Madhva
Message-ID: <161227054620.23782.6496964461542225323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:57:32 -0500, Ramakrishnan
Balasubramanian wrote:

> But RamanujAchArya accepts that it is possible for the souls to get
> out of transmigration by the proper means, i.e., the grace of
> Narayana, the supreme God. I am aware that there are some doctrinal
> differences regarding this grace between the vaDakaLai and tenkaLai
> schools, but both admit that no soul is apriori forbidden from
> achieving salvation. Only some may take more time than others.

BNK Sharma (_The Philosophy of Sri Madhvacarya_, Delhi 1991, p.
295) claims that a section among the followers of Raamaanuja
recognised the existence of nityasa.msaarins, and he quotes from
Vedaantade;sika's Tattvamuktaakalaapa: "iha sayuuthyaa.h, pare ca
kecid aahu.h ita.h puurvam iva pa;scaad api kecit na mok.syante",
which seems a good indication that some souls never attain mok.sa
("some will not be liberated later either, as earlier"). Sharma
supposes that those "saayuuthyaa.h" are the Tengalai Srivaisnavas,
and he says: "There is no reference in the writings of _modern
scholars on Indian Philosophy,_ to the acceptance of this peculiar
position regarding the classification of Souls in the ancient tradition
of the Vi;si.s.taadvaita school itself." (sic; p. 304 f. 2). I don't have
Vedaantade;sika's text at my disposal to check who those "kecid
[aahu.h]" are. Can anyone shed light on this?

RZ




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 23 16:58:27 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 08:58:27 -0800
Subject: Economist : The world language
Message-ID: <161227054631.23782.5342048659609120321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Looks like English has a bright future in the coming millennium.
The Economist article is very enlightening.

Are the State languages locally and English for inter-state and
inter-national business good for India? The Roman script
is simple and, is it ideal for India?

Regards,
N. Ganesan

------------------------------------------------------

>?From The Economist, UK
Issue 25-31 December 1999

The world language

INDIA has about a billion people and a dozen major languages of its
own. One language, and only one, is understood-by an elite-across the
country: that of the foreigners who ruled it for less than 200 years
and left 52 years ago. After 1947, English had to share its official
status, with north India's Hindi, and was due to lose it in 1965. It
did not happen: Southern India said no.

Today, India. Tomorrow, unofficially, the world. That is well under
way; at first, because the British not only built a global empire but
settled America, and now because the world (and notably America) has
acquired its first truly global-and interactive-medium, the Internet.
[...]
Read the full article at http://www.economist.com/


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From kekai at JPS.NET  Thu Dec 23 17:37:29 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 09:37:29 -0800
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054616.23782.1700448465070110246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N. Ganesan" wrote:
>
> Even the bhArhUt yakSI looks as though her head is covered
> with a turban tightly adorned with pearls. Reminds of Madurai
> Meenakshi's pearl "koNDai".
>
>

No doubt about turbans and other kinds of head gear.  The example of the
Yaksi's is good though.  It's pretty simple to extend garments like that
worn by the IVC priest over the head, so one would hardly have to look
for outside influence.

But there does seem to be some correlation between the common practice
and the beginning of the Muslim period.  Or this could have been a
common style in the Northwest which only became manifest historically
after the rise of Muslim art in the region.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
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From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Thu Dec 23 10:35:24 1999
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 11:35:24 +0100
Subject: Address of Dr.Ashok Aklujkar
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.10.9912221706340.7373-100000@alcor.concordia.ca>
Message-ID: <161227054627.23782.12580812192805410162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Not:
> aklujkar at unixq.ubc.ca
but:
        aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 23 20:26:24 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 12:26:24 -0800
Subject: The Fodder of First causes
Message-ID: <161227054640.23782.10435947004898559156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>In Christian theology there is a tendency to assign qualities to God.
>For example, it is said that God cannot lie, break promises or do other
>things that we judge as morally wrong.

The notion of God not doing things morally wrong (according to human
standards) is not applicable to Indian thought. The prime example, of
course, is Krishna in the Mahabharata. Having failed to bribe Karna, he
ensures the deaths of Drona and Karna through subterfuge.

Vidyasankar
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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 23 20:33:02 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 12:33:02 -0800
Subject: ziva
Message-ID: <161227054642.23782.2452094917677878698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

GT>In the RV the word *ziva'* occurs about fifty times, primarily as
GT>an adjective, occasionally as a substantive. As an adjective it is
GT>applied to many gods: not only to Rudra, but also to Agni, Indra,
GT>Mitra, VAyu and PUSan. It appears in the dual modifying
GT>DyAvApRthivI. In the feminine plural it modifies unnamed goddesses
GT>of the rivers. Not just gods but friends in general are said to be
GT>*ziva*, as are helpers, guests, messengers and protectors also.
GT>There is no instance of *ziva'* as a proper name 'Shiva'.

In Tamil, kem-/cem- occurs as an adjective and other forms
with meanings a) good, majestic, great, excellent or b) red.
Examples:
1) cem-mozi = good, spotless words
2) cem-marutar = good farmers
3) cemmAppu = exultation, majestic manner
a) cempu = copper
b) cem-malar = red flower
c) kempu = ruby
d) kempaTTikai = ruby necklace
(Dravidian alternates k- and c-: kannada kivi=tamil cevi = ear, etc.,)

Cologne Online Tamil Lexicon
  ----------------------------------------------------------------
cemmai 1. redness, reddiness; 2. goodness, soundness, good
condition; 3. spotlessnes, uprightness, directness, rectitude;
4. fairness, impartiality; 5. unity, concord, agreement;
6. excellence, eminence, greatness; 7. fineness; neatness,
cleanliness; 8. beauty, grace, elegance; [...]
  ---------------------------------------------------------------

The root "cemmai" meaning 1) good or 2) red is used
in "cemmal" = 1) good, great, Shiva or 2) fading flower.

Substrates in OIA, Sep. '99 EJVS paper has pointed out several
k and z word-initial variants in foreign loan words:
eg., kambala/zambara, kabara/zabara, kIsta/zISTa, kimIdin/zimIdaa,
kambu/zambu, kirAta/cilAta, etc.

VmV -> VvV example: tamizh > skt. dramiDa > skt. draviDa (Zvelebil).
Similarly, a formation:
drav. kema(good, red) > *kiva > skt. ziva.

Comments are welcome,
N. Ganesan

PS: Parallelly, 1) karko.taka/zarko.taka as 'gem-giver':
#43 karko.taka 25-nov-99 Indology post,
and 2) (ta.)kATikam/(skt.)zATI, see sAri, the Indian dress (19-dec-99).


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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 23 20:33:05 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 12:33:05 -0800
Subject: The Fodder of First causes
Message-ID: <161227054645.23782.11486248475929912013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Chris Beetle <bvi at AFN.ORG> wrote:

>Can one say simply that as Isvara has independence, his amsa (the jiva),
>also has independence, though limited in expression, and if jiva uses his
>free will to choose to oppose the Isvara, his samsaric existence begins,
>and
>when he gives up his rebellion, his samsaric existence ends?

The notion of samsara as a consequence of an act of jiva's rebellion against
Isvara is quite alien to any school of Indian thought. However, the idea of
icchA Sakti associated with jIva in a limited way is quite old. A totally
unexplored facet of early Advaita in this regard is in Suresvara's vArttika
on the Br. Up. bhAshya. See also the mAnasollAsa commentary (attributed to
Suresvara) on the dakshiNAmUrti hymn.

Vidyasankar
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From bvi at AFN.ORG  Thu Dec 23 17:35:18 1999
From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 12:35:18 -0500
Subject: The Fodder of First causes
Message-ID: <161227054633.23782.8588381013733646032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 04:50 PM 12/18/99 -0500, Edwin Bryant wrote:

>. . . If jiva's own
>desire is the cause, and karma then reacts to this desire and triggers off
>samsaric existence, then wherefrom the first inappropriate desire and
>karmic act?  . . .

Can one say simply that as Isvara has independence, his amsa (the jiva),
also has independence, though limited in expression, and if jiva uses his
free will to choose to oppose the Isvara, his samsaric existence begins, and
when he gives up his rebellion, his samsaric existence ends?

Best wishes,

Chris Beetle




From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Dec 23 18:18:52 1999
From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 13:18:52 -0500
Subject: The Fodder of First causes
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19991223173518.012c40b4@pop3.afn.org>
Message-ID: <161227054637.23782.11400440864971805540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Chris Beetle wrote:

> >. . . If jiva's own
> >desire is the cause, and karma then reacts to this desire and triggers off
> >samsaric existence, then wherefrom the first inappropriate desire and
> >karmic act?  . . .
>
> Can one say simply that as Isvara has independence, his amsa (the jiva),
> also has independence, though limited in expression, and if jiva uses his
> free will to choose to oppose the Isvara, his samsaric existence begins, and
> when he gives up his rebellion, his samsaric existence ends?

One could say this.  But, then, from where did the jiva make this initial
act of rebellion?  One would have to assume that it was a pre-samsaric
decision, since you are proposing that it *resulted* in samsara.  If this
pre-samsaric condition was Vaikuntha, then how could imperfection enter
Vaikuntha (ie how could a pure jiva devoid of ahamkara, buddhi, manas, etc
in a pure, transcendent, non-prakritic realm make an impure decision)?

If the jiva was not in Vaikuntha (and the Gita notes that one who attains
that realm *never* returns to samsara suggesting that one cannot fall from
the paramdham), then where was it's pre-samsaric locus?  Similar issues,
of course, have taxed Christian theologians with the fall of Satan and of
man.  EB




From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Dec 23 18:44:16 1999
From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 13:44:16 -0500
Subject: The Fodder of First causes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.10.9912231306350.20247-100000@is06.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227054638.23782.15731220794542104201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Edwin Bryant wrote:

> (the Gita notes that one who attains that realm *never* returns to
> samsara suggesting that one cannot fall from the paramdham),


BG 8.21 & 15.6

EB




From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Dec 23 14:57:21 1999
From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (bahulkar)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 20:27:21 +0530
Subject: Address of Dr.Ashok Aklujkar
Message-ID: <161227054629.23782.7106469254780960444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Austin,

Prof. Aklujkar is presently in India. Until 25th Dec. he will be in Mumbai and
will be back to Pune on 26th. He will leave for Canada on 3rd Jan. If you want
to pass any message on to him, I can do so until 27th Dec.

Shrikant Bahulkar
Chris Austin wrote:

> Dr.Aklujkar, are you still on this forum? Can anyone tell me how I can
> reach Dr. Aklujkar? Neither of the following two addresses appear to be in
> operation:
>
> aklujkar at unixq.ubc.ca
> fo8z003 at public.uni-hamburg.de
>
> Thanks
> Chris Austin
> Concordia University
> Department of Religion
> Montreal, Canada
> c_austi at alcor.concordia.ca




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Thu Dec 23 21:21:13 1999
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 99 22:21:13 +0100
Subject: The Fodder of First causes
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19991223173518.012c40b4@pop3.afn.org>
Message-ID: <161227054647.23782.10966495900557890816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Can one say simply that as Isvara has independence, his amsa (the jiva),
>also has independence, though limited in expression, and if jiva uses his
>free will to choose to oppose the Isvara, his samsaric existence begins, and
>when he gives up his rebellion, his samsaric existence ends?

Assuming that we are still talking of the Vedantic tradition, such a tenet
(involving a sa-aadi-samsaara) would seem very difficult to uphold in the
face of Brahmasutra 2.1.35: na karmaavibhaagaad iti cen naanaaditvaat. In
fact, I don't think I have heard of any school of Indian philosophy
accepting a 'beginning to samsaric existence'. Have you?

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Dec 23 23:11:03 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 99 00:11:03 +0100
Subject: Economist : The world language
Message-ID: <161227054648.23782.1067447941504440406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Looks like English has a bright future in the coming millennium.
> The Economist article is very enlightening.
> Today, India. Tomorrow, unofficially, the world. That is well under
> way; at first, because the British not only built a global empire but
> settled America, and now because the world (and notably America) has
> acquired its first truly global-and interactive-medium, the Internet.

The power of English is a direct consequence of the combined influence of American popular entertainment and knowledge production, not to mention economic and military clout. English will dominate for as long as America rules and perhaps a bit longer, just as Latin dominated Europe for quite a few centuries after the collapse of the Roman empire. But no language rules for ever. Maybe we'll all speak Chinese a few centuries from now.  A thought for the new millenium? It would be interesting to make a poll in the year 2000: Which language will dominate the world in the year 2500? 

Our descendants 500 years from now might get a heap of fun out of it. 

Have a nice new millennium everybody on the list: Don't miss this terrific opportunity for a party. I see a lot of alternative New Year parties out there in the fog and mist, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu: I wouldn't like to miss any of them. The older you get, the more your party time options run out. Don't confine yourself to your own culture: Crash hanukka, divali, holi, etc etc. You can squeeze it all in, if you try. 

Good luck with you quality time expansion! While you drink, eat and are merry, I'll doggedly pursue my secret conspiratorial aim of making Norwegian the next world language. 

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From kekai at JPS.NET  Fri Dec 24 18:11:39 1999
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 99 10:11:39 -0800
Subject: The Fodder of First causes
Message-ID: <161227054635.23782.13148312839168876348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Chris Beetle wrote:
>
> At 04:50 PM 12/18/99 -0500, Edwin Bryant wrote:
>
> >. . . If jiva's own
> >desire is the cause, and karma then reacts to this desire and triggers off
> >samsaric existence, then wherefrom the first inappropriate desire and
> >karmic act?  . . .
>
> Can one say simply that as Isvara has independence, his amsa (the jiva),
> also has independence, though limited in expression, and if jiva uses his
> free will to choose to oppose the Isvara, his samsaric existence begins, and
> when he gives up his rebellion, his samsaric existence ends?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Chris Beetle

In Christian theology there is a tendency to assign qualities to God.
For example, it is said that God cannot lie, break promises or do other
things that we judge as morally wrong. The proofs of such beliefs are,
of course, subjective just as they are elsewhere.

One could say that in order for free will, or maybe, purusha, to exist
there must be samsara. Without samsara there is no purusha.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
--
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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 24 19:01:01 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 99 11:01:01 -0800
Subject: Economist : The world language
Message-ID: <161227054654.23782.1667583261907876469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>But no language rules for ever. Maybe we'll all speak Chinese a few
> >centuries from now.  A thought for the new millenium? It would be
> >interesting to make a poll in the year 2000: Which language will
> >dominate the world in the year 2500?

May be Chinese language for speaking; but it will be a miracle
if the Chinese script is going to rule the world anytime!

Happy holidays,
N. Ganesan



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From Sfauthor at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 24 16:47:39 1999
From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 99 11:47:39 -0500
Subject: Economist : The world language
Message-ID: <161227054650.23782.13946565953296598204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 12/24/99 4:41:09 AM, lmfosse at ONLINE.NO writes:

>English will dominate for as long as America
>rules and perhaps a bit longer, just as Latin dominated Europe for quite
>a few centuries after the collapse of the Roman empire. But no language
>rules for ever. Maybe we'll all speak Chinese a few centuries from now.

I'm not so sure. The global entrenchment of English may be a once-and-for-all
deal. The Chinese will simply rule us via English.


>Have a nice new millennium everybody on the list: Don't miss this terrific
>opportunity for a party.

My sentiments, only squared. Or cubed.


>I'll doggedly pursue my secret conspiratorial aim of making Norwegian
>the next world language.

Today, Minnesota; tomorrow, the world!


Best wishes to all!!!

Brian


--------------------
Brian Dana Akers
www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/
sfauthor at aol.com




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Dec 24 11:27:57 1999
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 99 12:27:57 +0100
Subject: El. Journ. of Vedic Stud., New issue: astronomy
In-Reply-To: <19991223165827.36627.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054652.23782.2618961319140820691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am  happy to announce another issue of the Electronic Journal of 
Vedic Studies, Vol. 5-2.

This deals, appropriately for the end of this year, century &
millennium,  with the perennial topics of the Vedic calendar and
astronomy:



<center><bold>CONTENTS</bold>

</center>

Editor's Note (M.Witzel)


Articles:   


        B. N. Narahari Achar, On Exploring the Vedic Sky with Modern Computer
Software

	

        M. Witzel, The Pleiades and the Bears viewed from inside the Vedic
texts




http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs

European mirror:  http://www.asiatica.org

or http://www.asiatica.org/publications/ejvs/


<bold>(C</bold>) With the authors and the editors        ISSN 1084-7561


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



All the best for the Holidays  & the New Year, M.Witzel





===========================================================================

Michael Witzel                          Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies

Harvard University                  www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs

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my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990

home page:     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
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From bvi at AFN.ORG  Fri Dec 24 20:37:27 1999
From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 99 15:37:27 -0500
Subject: The Fodder of First causes
Message-ID: <161227054656.23782.837675912769213070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 12:33 PM 12/23/99 PST, you wrote:
>Vidyasankar wrote:
>
> . . . However, the idea of
>icchA Sakti associated with jIva in a limited way is quite old.

What is the nature of this energy?  What is its effect?  Where is it
described?

Best wishes,

Chris Beetle




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Dec 25 02:20:05 1999
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 99 02:20:05 +0000
Subject: sAri, the Indian dress
Message-ID: <161227054658.23782.14775271901312144535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yashwant Malaiya wrote:
>
> Sujata asked:
>
> > How old is the North Indian head covering tradition?


The discussion has thrown up many mixed issues. Nature of dress (saarii, cailam,
s'aatii, etc.,) , covering the head for protection from sun or purdah and the foreign
influence whether Greek, Roman or Turkish.

The word saarii always seemed to have denoted untailored and  only draped cloth. But how
it was worn through the ages in India can be determined from sculpture and a bit from
poetry. Ancient  s'aat.ii was a not a single cloth but two (upper and lower) and  it is
clear that women did veil their hair, faces and upper body as indicated by the  word
"avagunth.ana" used in epics and drama texts.

So shall we say that the Greeks took it from us?  May be, though they dont seem to know
 India very well before the voyage of Skylax funded by Darius. Most probably it is
nothing more than a common response, protecting women from greedy gazing.

The Greek women covered their head on formal and mournful moments is clear from 4th
cent. B.C. gravestones. The himation (something like the present day North Indian
chaader) was used to cover the head also. The Roman women used "palla" in place of
himation. Palla seemes to have entered India and survives till date in name and shape.
In any case it was hardly different from draping for the upper body called uttariiya.
Maybe it came with words like kore (young girl in Greek) (Punjabi kur.ii). But it is
obvious that in ancient Greece, Rome and India the hair (and face) was covered by women
in certain cirumstances only.

First the Christian code of constantly hiding the female body and hair and later the
Islamic code of purdah, used the earlier draping to make complete and all-time coverage
of the hair in the Mediterranean and the hair and well as the face in North India. Under
the Turkish rule in the Mediterranean and the slavic regions the later version of the
Roman palla was replaced by the kerchief,  while it survive in India in various versions
like chuunrii, chaader, dupatta etc.

Hiding women by veil from the invaders could not have been of much avail as it was a
Central Asian and Middle East  practice to abduct vanquished women and keep them as
slaves, concubines and wives in the aftermath of war. It was the code Islamic of purdah
that Hindus absorbed from the new ruling class more so in North India.

Bharat Gupt




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 25 14:53:04 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 99 06:53:04 -0800
Subject: ziva
Message-ID: <161227054660.23782.620996400489547333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Listers,

Is ziva as either good/auspicious or red found in Avestan?

Merry X'mas,
N. Ganesan

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From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 25 21:23:25 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 99 16:23:25 -0500
Subject: History of the usage of the terms --"mImAMsa",              "vedAnta" and "mAyAvAda"
Message-ID: <161227054662.23782.3595337174176794124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would appreciate if someone could answer the following questions based on
usages in the *Indo-Aryan* texts.

When, if ever, did mImAMsa and vedAnta come to refer to two mutually
exclusive entities? When is the earliest use of the term mAyAvAda? Was
zankara's philosophy known by any name which was not pre-zankaran?

Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 25 21:23:40 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 99 16:23:40 -0500
Subject: rAga as musical scale
Message-ID: <161227054664.23782.282306774525812805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In earlier discussions in Indology, it had been pointed out that the usage of
the word rAga in the sense of musical scale does not occur in nATyazAstra. Is
the usage rAga in jAti-rAga in NS 28.37 interpreted as color? If the author
of bRhddezI was the first one to use rAga in the sense of musical scale, does
he or anybody else explain why that term was being used to refer to the scale
in preference to jAti? When is the first occurrence of the name "zrIrAga" and
what is the interpretation of "rAga" here -- scale or color/beauty/passion?
Thanks in advance.

By the way, P. Sambamoorthy's  statement, "When the word 'raga' with all its
fuller melodic connotion and significance came into use in the post-Bharata
period, the earlier word 'jAti' naturally lost all importance" (South Indian
Music, Book V, p. 57) does not help.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 26 19:12:57 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 99 11:12:57 -0800
Subject: History of the usage of the terms --"mImAMsa",              "vedAnta" and "mAyAvAda"
Message-ID: <161227054666.23782.11613350244606289287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>When is the earliest use of the term mAyAvAda? Was
>zankara's philosophy known by any name which was not pre-zankaran?

I don't know the answer; But prior to zaGkara & GaudapAda,
it is unlikely that vedanta was called mAyAvAda.

F. Whaling, p. 23, zaGkara and Buddhism,
"the Advaita Vedanta set forth by Gaudapada was diffrent from the
Vedanta that had gone before, and much of that difference can
be explained by reference to his conscious or unconscious
debt to Mahayana Buddhism".

Does Ramanuja use mAyAvAda as Sankara's school?:
"zaGkara's interpretation of mAyA became a pretext for violent attacks
by many theistically-minded thinkers, including those of the Vedanta
school. For example, Ramanuja considered zaGkara's mAyA-vAda, or
the doctrine of mAyA, to be a direct compromise with the Buddhist
teaching." p. 164, N. Isayeva

"And it was in Buddhism that GauDapAda borrowed the notion of
the *illusioveness* of manifold  world activities and percetions
that are being cut short and exhausted in the moment of true
seeing. The term, used to define the falseness of any duality,
was that of the Buddhist mAyA [53]."

"[53] The word mAyA can be found in zvetAzvataropaniSad, IV.10,
where it signifies a divine creative power and is more or less
identified with prakRti, or nature, as the origin of the universe.
Indeed, it was only in Buddhist zUnyavAda that the notion of mAyA
was developed into a consistent doctrine of the illusiveness of
the phenomenal world. One sees, for example, in Nagarjuna's
Maadhyamika-kaarikaa, vii, 34, the following definition

  Just like /illusive/ mAyA, just like a dream,
     just like the city of the /heavnly musicians,/
        the Gandharvas,
  Just like a beginning is this state, it is called
     the momentary, /changing flux/.
  YathA mAyA yathA svapno gandharvanagaraM yathA/
  yathotpAdas tathA sthAna.m tathA bhaGga udIritaH//

However, Gaudapada and Sankara relate mAyA to the Vedic metaphor
of a "hidden" (gUDha) Brahman (cf., for instance, kaThopaniSad,
I.3.12)" p. 52, N. Isayeva, Shankara and Indian philosophy, 1993.





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From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Sun Dec 26 20:39:38 1999
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 99 15:39:38 -0500
Subject: Hello Indologists!
In-Reply-To: <19991226191257.37024.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054667.23782.12354166653465312615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello Indologists,
        Greetings!
        I am rejoining Indology after a month-long break from it during my
visit to Pune.  Just want to mention two recent publications I acquired at
Pune, some of the best from India in recent years:

        1.      The Vedic People : Their History and Geography
                Rajesh Kochhar
                Orient Longman Ltd.  Delhi,
                2000
        2.      Advent of the Aryans in India
                Ram Sharan Sharma
                Manohar Publishers and Distributors
                Delhi
                1999

        Best,
                                        Madhav Deshpande




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Mon Dec 27 02:36:59 1999
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 99 21:36:59 -0500
Subject: History of the usage of the terms --"mImAMsa",              "vedAnta" and "mAyAvAda"
Message-ID: <161227054669.23782.16157945012332556660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM> wrote:

> When, if ever, did mImAMsa and vedAnta come to refer to two mutually
> exclusive entities? When is the earliest use of the term mAyAvAda?
Was
> zankara's philosophy known by any name which was not pre-zankaran?

It is a much speculated topic when the two terms came to mean
something exclusive. There is quite some speculation that sha.nkara
might have been the one to start it. However, there's not much proof.
Actually, there's some evidence against it. There was an ancient
teacher called upavarsha, who sha.nkara calls in his bhAshhya to
brahmasUtra 3.3.53 as "Lord upavarsha", (bhagavAn upavarsha). This
person is even older than shabarasvAmin who also respectfully quotes
his views in his shabarabhAshhya (again as "Lord upavarsha").

This shabara seems to have written a commentary, as per sha.nkaras and
shabaras bhAshhyas, on both the pUrva, i.e., jaiminis sUtra-s
(mImA.nsA) and uttara (vedAnta) sUtra-s. However, since shabarasvAmin
wrote a commentary only on the sUtras of jaimini, I think we can say
with some confidence that the mImA.nsA and the vedAnta were separated
by the time of shabara if not the time of upavarsha itself. shabara is
placed circa 500, if I remember right. Regarding the dates of these
folks and the history of the word mImA.nsA itself, please consult Jean
Marie Verpootens monograph, "Mimamsa Literature" in the Weisbaden
series on the history of Indian literature.

The earliest recorded usage of mAyAvAda seems to be by bhaTTa
bhAskara, a bhedAbhedavAdin, who is considered a junior contemporary
of sha.nkara. Some details can be found in "The philosophy of
Bhedabheda," by Srinivasachari, Adyar Library. The Buddhist writer
bhavya uses the term vedAntavAdinaH in his madhyamakahR^idaya and the
philosophy he describes is advaita, with the standard pot-ether
analogy found in the gauDapAdakArikas and also seems to be quoting
gauDapAda. See "The Vedanta Philosophy described by Bhavya in his
Madhyamakahrdaya," V.V.Gokhale, pp.165-180, IIJ-2, 1958. bhavaya is
placed in the 500s.

The later writer shAntaraxita (placed slightly before sha.nkara) calls
it the advaita school. See the Tattvasangraha of Shantaraxita,
translated by Ganganatha Jha, Vol 1, Motilal 1986. From the Buddhist
evidence, it seems that the advaita school alone was prominent enough
among the vedantic schools to be taken up for refutation. After
bhaTTa-bhAskara, some Buddhist writers refuted bhedAbheda in the 11th
century. Details can be obtained from the book by Nakamura.

Rama




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Mon Dec 27 02:46:33 1999
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 99 21:46:33 -0500
Subject: History of the usage of the terms --"mImAMsa",              "vedAnta" and "mAyAvAda"
Message-ID: <161227054671.23782.5408531974544415879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian <ramakris at EROLS.COM> wrote:

> This shabara seems to have written a commentary, as per sha.nkaras
and

Oops, read that as "This *upavasha* seems to have written ..."

> shabaras bhAshhyas, on both the pUrva, i.e., jaiminis sUtra-s
> (mImA.nsA) and uttara (vedAnta) sUtra-s. However, since
shabarasvAmin
> wrote a commentary only on the sUtras of jaimini, I think we can say

Rama




From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM  Mon Dec 27 10:31:32 1999
From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 99 10:31:32 +0000
Subject: History of the usage of the terms --"mImAMsa",              "vedAnta" and "mAyAvAda"
In-Reply-To: <19991226191257.37024.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054673.23782.4423166723294770030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

No doubt the Advaitavedaanta is fundamentally a kind of adaptive
response to Madhyamaka ideas. But it is less obvious that the term
maayaa itself is really derived from Buddhist sources.
>
>"[53] The word mAyA can be found in zvetAzvataropaniSad, IV.10,
>where it signifies a divine creative power and is more or less
>identified with prakRti, or nature, as the origin of the universe.
>Indeed, it was only in Buddhist zUnyavAda that the notion of mAyA
>was developed into a consistent doctrine of the illusiveness of
>the phenomenal world. One sees, for example, in Nagarjuna's
>Maadhyamika-kaarikaa, vii, 34, the following definition
>
>  Just like /illusive/ mAyA, just like a dream,
>     just like the city of the /heavnly musicians,/
>        the Gandharvas,
>  Just like a beginning is this state, it is called
>     the momentary, /changing flux/.
>  YathA mAyA yathA svapno gandharvanagaraM yathA/
>  yathotpAdas tathA sthAna.m tathA bhaGga udIritaH//
>
The last line should read tathotpAdas etc.

The reference here is to the abhidharma debates concerning
conditioned phenomena.

So translate:
The arising (of dharmas) has been referred to [in scripture] as like
a magical trick (maayaa), their (period of) presence as like a dream
and their breaking up is like a gandharva city.

Lance Cousins

OXFORD, UK

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES:
L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk or selwyn at dtn.ntl.com




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 28 00:16:03 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 99 19:16:03 -0500
Subject: On zankara's date - 1
Message-ID: <161227054675.23782.11880073250399965975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many thanks to the members for very useful information on the use of the
terms, mImAMsA, vedAnta, etc.

My interest in these terms comes from an attempt to explore the issue of the
date of zankara using an approach different from the earlier ones. I am
trying to consider the subjects of study in the Sanskrit colleges in the
Tamilnadu/Kerala region to see if we can find out when vedAnta began to be
included as a subject of study. Not having access to some important works, I
am relying on Vidyasankar Sundaresan's advaita web site for prior information
on this topic. I am willing to be corrected on any resulting errors.

In his article, "Cattanam Madham - Its Identification", K. G. Krishnan, the
epigraphist, discusses the establishment called caTTANam maDham mentioned  in
uddyotAna-sUri's Prakrit campu, kuvalayamAlA. Following U. P. Shah's earlier
work (ABORI, 1968, pp.247ff), Krishnan argues convincingly that sUri is
talking about the famous college at kAntaLUrccAlai in South Kerala. According
to kuvalayamAlA, the philosophical subjects of study at the college were
buddhadarzana, mImAMsA, naiyAyika-darzana, anekAntavAda or lOkAyataka. I
think it is interesting that vedAnta was not included.

Krishnan mentions Upadhye as giving March 21, 779 AD  as the date of
completion of sUri's work. If  zankara is dated ca. 700 AD, in an institution
of national importance right in zankara's own backyard, will they neglect
vedAnta as a subject of study in 779 AD? Moreover, sUri mentions
buddhadarzana but not vedAnta. Is there a way to rule out the fact that it
could be simply an oversight?

There is a set of copper plates of karunantaTakkan2 issued in 866 AD
describing the establishment of a Sanskrit college associated with a viSNu
temple at pArttivacEkarapuram in the kan2n2iyAkumari district of Tamilnadu.
According to this, the college was modeled after the older one at
kAntaLUrccAlai. The students were admitted after an entrance test in
vyAkaraNa, mImAMsA, and paurOhitya. vedAnta was not included in this list.
Considering the relative proximity of this school to zankara's home, why was
vedAnta not included? Was the dominance of mImAMsA studies so complete in
Tamilnadu/Kerala that even in 866, vedAnta was not considered a subject of
study in its own right? Or did zankara achieve fame later than 866 AD?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 28 00:16:09 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 99 19:16:09 -0500
Subject: On zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227054677.23782.14210242976907890159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the period between the founding of the pArttivacEkarapuram college in the
second half of the 9th century and the grant to the eNNAyiram college in the
first half of 11th century, vedAnta has come to be included as a subject of
study in the Sanskrit Colleges in Tamilnadu/Kerala. I think the change was
probably due to zankara's influence.

According to the advaita web site, "The Sringeri maTha's record states that
Sankara was born in the 14th year of the reign of vikramAditya. The record
does not give any clue about the identity of this king." On the basis of the
identification of this vikramAditya with one of the two Chalukya kings,
vikramAditya I and vikramAditya II, some scholars seem to have argued for a
700 AD date. (But we find later vikramAdityas  V and VI of the  Chalukyas of
Kalyani in the 11th century. This means there were probably two other
vikramAdityas in the intervening centuries.) But if we suppose that  the
Sringeri tradition is based on information related to kings in Kerala and not
Karnataka, we get some interesting results.

The south Kerala/Tamilnadu Ay king karunantaTakkan2's successor was called
vikramAditya varaguNa.  It is not known when exactly he began his rule. The
name suggests that he must have been a contemporary of his Pandyan overlord
varaguNa II who ruled between 862-880 AD. This means that if we place zankara
in the second half of the 9th century, then we can explain the absence of
vedAntic studies at the colleges at kAntalUrccAlai and pArttivacekarapuram.
It will also explain  the king's name vikramAditya. It will make zankara a
contemporary of mANikkavAcakar. Then mANikkavAcakar's reference to "mAyAvAda,
the hurricane that blew and roared" might refer to zankara's efforts.
mANikkavAcakar might have outlived zankara.

If there are any confirmed absolute dates for post-zankaran scholars that
will conflict with this analysis, then this may have to be revised.

By the way, why was the study of vedAnta less popular than the study of
mImAMsA among the Tamilnadu/Kerala brahmins? Did buddhism dominate the
tradition of philosophical speculation in the Tamil region?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 28 03:17:46 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 99 19:17:46 -0800
Subject: Mimamsa, Vedanta etc.
Message-ID: <161227054683.23782.15875903280592808480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

1. Mimamsa: The word is used in a technical sense as early as the Vedic
Samhitas. Eg. "Utsrjam notsrjam iti Mimamsante" (Taittiriya Samhita 4.2.6.4
Also the Upanishads. For instance Taittiriya Upanishad 2.6 reads
"Saishandasya Mimamsa bhavati"
In numerous other texts, the 'Brahmavadins' discuss matters related to
rituals (Eg. Numerous times in Aitreya Brahmana) and sprituality (Eg.
"Brahmavadino vadanti: Kim karanam..." Svetasvatara Upanishad 1.1). Were
these the 'proto-Mimamsakas'? See also 'Kashkritsni Mimamsa' mentioned in
Mahabhashya of Patanjali.

2. The word 'Vedanta' is of course attested in the Gita ("I am
'Vedantakrita'") and Upanshads, Eg. "Vedanta vijnana sunischitartha.."
(Mundaka). The followers of Upanishadic doctrines are often termed as
'Aupanishadas' in pre-Samkaran texts (Eg. Harsacharita of Bana Bhatta
written around 605-620 C.E.). Other forum members have already given some
more examples.

3. The word 'Mimamsa' originally might have covered both the 'Karma Mimamsa'
of Jaimini (in 16 Chapters) and the Brahmamimamsa of Badarayana (in 4
chapters). Epigraphic evidence from Tamil Nadu mentions Brahmins subsisting
on 'Bhattavrtti' by studying the Mimamsa of 20 chapters. Sri Ramanuja also
quotes the following from sentence from the Vrtti of Bodhayana: "The
Sariraka forms one text with the doctrine of Jaimini that is contained in 16
chapters." It must be noted that Purva Mimamsa has 16 chapters out of which
the widely prevelant first 12 form the Tantrakanda and the latter 4 form the
Samkarsha Kanda (on which we have extant the Bhashya of Devasvamin/Bhavadasa
etc.)
The following passage of Prapancahrydaya (a text of Malabar) will make
things clearer (paraphrasing from memory):
"Bodhayana wrote a massive Bhashya called 'Krtakoti' on the Mimamsa of 20
chapters. Fearing that those of weak intellect will not be able to master it
and the Bhashya will get lost, Upavarsha abridged this Bhashya somewhat.
Fearing that the Bhashya was still too voluminous, Devasvamin abridged the
Bhashya on first 16 chapters forming the Karma Mimamsa. Bhavadasa also wrote
a brief Bhashya on the Karma Mimamsa. Ignoring the 4 chapters of Samkarsha,
Sabara further abridged the commentary on the Tantra Kanda. Bhatta Kumarila
and Prabhakara wrote their own commentaries on the Sabara Bhashya.
Samkarshana wrote on the Devata Kanda ( = Samkarsha Kanda). Bhagvatpada
(=Samkaracharya), Brahmadatta and Bhaskara wrote their own commentaries on
the Brahmamimamsa with differing viewpoints."

According to Avantisundarikatha of Dandin (~650 C.E.), however, Krtakoti was
the name of Upavarsha and the same was identical with Bodhayana. Manimekhali
too mentions Krtakoti as a scholar of Mimamsa (along with Jaimini and
Vyasa). Bhaskara too (in his Brahmasutra Bhashya 1.1.1 and 2.2.27) too calls
Upavarsha as "Sastrasampradaya pravarttaka". Samskrit lexicons like
Vaijayanti of Yadavaprakasa; Trikandasesa, Kesava Kosha, Sasvata Kosha etc.
also give 'Krtakoti' as synonymns of Upavarsha.

The weight of evidence points to the equation Bodhayana=Upavarsha. (The
relevant section of the Prapancahridaya is anyway full of interpolations as
is clear from the critical apparatus). The Vrtti of Upavarsha certainly
survived upto approximately 1050 C.E. as Kesava quotes it in his Paddhati on
Kausika Sutra 1.8 Around that time, Sri Ramanujacharya had to travel to
Sharada Matha (= Modern Sharadi in Pakistan occuppied Kashmir) to read the
Bodhayanavrtti on the Brahmasutras. However, the Kavindracharya Suchipatra
(Kavindracharya was a contemporary of Shah Jehan) mentions a manuscript of
the same. Also Oppert mentions a manuscript in the Sringeri Matha, and
another in Andhra Pradesh (in the private collection of a Brahmin).

According to traditions preserved in the Kavyamimamsa, Avantisundari katha,
Brihatkatha etc., Upavarsha was a contemporary of Mahapadma Nanda. From
citations in the Sabara Bhashya, it appears that Upavarsha flouted
Patanjali's recommendations in splitting the compound "Dharmajijnasa" which
might indicate Upavarsha's priority to Patanjali.

In this regard, I want to point out that the Purva and Uttara Mimamsas
menion numerous former teachers like Alekhana, Audolomi, Kashakritsna etc.,
and dozens of quotations of the lost works of these predecessors of Jaimini
and Badrayana are encountered in the Kalpasutras. The the specific nature of
the views quoted confirm that these Purvacharyas indeed wrote their own
treatises on Mimamsa before J and Badrayana.

Sankaracharya was definitely before 850 C.E. because a subcommentator of his
Sariraka Bhashya namely Vacaspati Misra, wrote his Bhamati around 850 C.E.
For further information, please refer:

"Life and Thought of Samkaracharya" by G. C. Pande.

Hope all this helps
Regards

Vishal



----Original Message Follows----
From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>
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From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM  Tue Dec 28 00:58:31 1999
From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 99 19:58:31 -0500
Subject: The Philosopher's Name in English?
Message-ID: <161227054680.23782.17842300885176385653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What is the best ENGLISH LANGUAGE rendering of the great philosopher's name?  (I.e., in terms of pronunciation in English)

Sancara
Sankara
Zankara
Shankara
Shancara
Shamkara (my favorite)

Other?

George Cronk


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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 28 15:58:10 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 07:58:10 -0800
Subject: Mimamsa, Vedanta etc.
Message-ID: <161227054697.23782.2806414059386706841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 > According to Avantisundarikatha of Dandin (~650 C.E.), however,
 >Krtakoti was the name of Upavarsha and the same was identical with
 >Bodhayana. Manimekhali too mentions Krtakoti as a scholar of Mimamsa
 >(along with Jaimini and Vyasa). Bhaskara too (in his Brahmasutra
 >Bhashya 1.1.1 and 2.2.27) too calls Upavarsha as "Sastrasampradaya
 >pravarttaka". Samskrit lexicons like Vaijayanti of Yadavaprakasa;
 >Trikandasesa, Kesava Kosha, Sasvata Kosha etc. also give 'Krtakoti'
 >as synonymns of Upavarsha.

Is the "Manimekhali" here refering to the buddhist epic, ma.nimEkalai?
Art historians have doubted the assertion of C. Sivaramamurti in his
booklet, Bhagavatpada Sri Sankaracharya (1972) that the Pallava temple
(Muktesvara (from memory)) sculptures in Kanchi adjoining a
Dakshinamurti bas-relief panel is Sankara. A team of three saints,
whom Sivaramamurti identifies them as Jaimini, Vyasa and Sankara.
Other scholars say that this kind of deification appears to be too
early and, more likely is Jaimini, Vyasa and Krtakoti. What is the
standard  academic opinion among vedanta scholars about the Kanchi
portraits nowadays?

Dr. Palaniappan mentions the ghaTikaa at the village, eNNAyiram
inscription in mid-11th century. Interestingly, a bunch of
copper plates held together by a ring was discovered at eNNAyiram
by the State Dept. of Archaeology. Dr. R. Nagaswamy published
the contents in BEFEO about 10 yrs. ago. Can someone give
the exact citation? These copper plates are as important
as the Tiruvalangadu (now at Leiden) Rajaraja I and Karanthai
Tamil Sangam Rajendra I copper plates. Nagasamy's 1962 paper,
Date of Sankara, Jl. Or. Inst. (Baroda) argues why the Sankara
referred in the Cambodian inscription is not the Adi Sankaracharya
at all. Coedes, the Indo-China expert who edited the Combodian ins.,
and Kanchi Mahaperiyavaal approved of his reasoning in late 1950s.

Regards,
N. Ganesan



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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 28 16:32:31 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 08:32:31 -0800
Subject: On zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227054698.23782.1182477540409706443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM> wrote:

>According to the advaita web site, "The Sringeri maTha's record states that
>Sankara was born in the 14th year of the reign of vikramAditya. The record
>does not give any clue about the identity of this king." On the basis of
>the
>identification of this vikramAditya with one of the two Chalukya kings,
>vikramAditya I and vikramAditya II, some scholars seem to have argued for a
>700 AD date. (But we find later vikramAdityas  V and VI of the  Chalukyas
>of
>Kalyani in the 11th century. This means there were probably two other
>vikramAdityas in the intervening centuries.) But if we suppose that  the
>Sringeri tradition is based on information related to kings in Kerala and
>not
>Karnataka, we get some interesting results.
>
>The south Kerala/Tamilnadu Ay king karunantaTakkan2's successor was called
>vikramAditya varaguNa.  It is not known when exactly he began his rule. The
>name suggests that he must have been a contemporary of his Pandyan overlord
>varaguNa II who ruled between 862-880 AD. This means that if we place
>zankara

I remember having read somewhere (Sewell perhaps?) that there is a similar
reference (14th year of vikramAditya) in konkuteca rAcAkkaL. The problem is
that there are too many vikramAdityas to choose from, even within one
dynasty, and of course, many dynasties to choose from!

In a letter to Swami Tapasyananda of the Ramakrishna Mission (reproduced in
his translation of the mAdhavIya Sankaravijayam), the Sringeri Matha has
officially declined to attach a firm date to this tradition. However,
contemporary Matha publications often give the 788-820 CE dates that have
generally come to be accepted in India.

Finally, a lot depends on how one thinks of the society of those times. The
data are complex. Although there have been many gRhastha authors in the
tradition, the study of vedAnta is intimately associated with saMnyAsa. One
alternative name for bAdarAyaNa's brahma-sUtra is bhikshu-sUtra. It may be
that religious colleges with substantial endowments did not venture into
vedAnta, and left it to those totally outside general society. Certainly, it
seems to have taken a few centuries after Sankara for the force of vedAnta
to have been felt, but I wonder if that would be sufficient to bring his
date down to the late 9th century. There is the date of vAcaspati miSra to
consider, as also the inevitable conclusion that Sankara and bhAskara were
more or less contemporaries. Add to this the fact that although Sankara is
traditionally said to have been a nambUdiri by birth, his vehement rejection
of ritual contrasts starkly with the pronounced ritualism of the community,
even within living memory.

Your approach is certainly very interesting, and surely long overdue.
Somehow, scholarly interest in such issues seems to have gone steeply
downhill. It would be interesting to investigate similar sources from the
other southern states too.

Vidyasankar

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 28 16:35:50 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 08:35:50 -0800
Subject: The Philosopher's Name in English?
Message-ID: <161227054700.23782.17544705406399641614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>What is the best ENGLISH LANGUAGE rendering of the great
>philosopher's name? (I.e., in terms of pronunciation in English)
>Sancara
>Sankara
>Zankara
>Shankara
>Shancara
>Shamkara (my favorite)

In the native language (Tamil) of the area where Sankar was raised,
inscriptions render the Sanskrit name as "caGkaran2" (using
the Cologne tamil transliteration).

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 28 16:55:47 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 08:55:47 -0800
Subject: Mimamsa, Vedanta etc.
Message-ID: <161227054702.23782.17270333223145343432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>Art historians have doubted the assertion of C. Sivaramamurti in his
>booklet, Bhagavatpada Sri Sankaracharya (1972) that the Pallava temple
>(Muktesvara (from memory)) sculptures in Kanchi adjoining a
>Dakshinamurti bas-relief panel is Sankara. A team of three saints,
>whom Sivaramamurti identifies them as Jaimini, Vyasa and Sankara.
>Other scholars say that this kind of deification appears to be too
>early and, more likely is Jaimini, Vyasa and Krtakoti. What is the
>standard  academic opinion among vedanta scholars about the Kanchi
>portraits nowadays?

There is no "standard" academic opinion, as far as I am aware. I don't think
any proper critical examination has been made of all the sculptures that
have been claimed to represent Sankara. The intersection set of art
historians and academic vedAnta scholars is probably a null set. In spite of
his impeccable credentials, Sivaramamurti may have only seen what he was
expected (or told?) to see by a higher authority. I, for one, am quite
skeptical about it.

The sculptures range from the times of Narasimhavarman Pallava to
Krishnadevaraya of Vijayanagara. Whatever literature there does exist about
these sculptures seems driven by hidden agendas. N. Veezhinathan has
included pictures of a number of them in his edition of anantAnandagiri's
hagiography of Sankara. K. R. Venkataraman has pointed out that at least
some of the sculptures (notably in the kAyArohaNeSvara temple, but also in
other locations) represent lakUlISa-pASupata ascetics, and that they have
been mistakenly interpreted as ekadaNDI saMnyAsins of the advaita tradition.
And voila, here you have it - the two authors are in opposite camps, and any
discussion has only seen more heat than light.

Vidyasankar
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From safar at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Dec 28 15:36:10 1999
From: safar at PRODIGY.NET (Sunil Mehta)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 09:36:10 -0600
Subject: Query
Message-ID: <161227054691.23782.1648464771288619087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote:

I don't know about Indonesia, but currencies of Malayasia and Singapore
do use coins.

Sunil

> Dear members of the list,
>
> Can someone tell me whether coins are used in the modern currency of
> Singapore, Indonesia, or Malaysia?
>
> Thank you, and Happy New Year,
>
> Ruth Schmidt
>
> ***********************************************
> Ruth Laila Schmidt
> Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
> University of Oslo
> P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
> N-0315 Oslo, Norway
> Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
> Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
> Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no




From safar at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Dec 28 15:39:52 1999
From: safar at PRODIGY.NET (Sunil Mehta)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 09:39:52 -0600
Subject: The Philosopher's Name in English?
Message-ID: <161227054693.23782.15385956577181748829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As far as etymology is concerned Shamkara would be correct.  But the
when sham and kara are joined the nasal 'm' takes the form appropraite
for it's position (i.e. preceding a a guttural consonant).  Hence the
nasal 'm' becomes the nasal 'n'.  Therefor Shankara would be the most
appropriate form.


Sunil Mehta

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

>       What is the best ENGLISH LANGUAGE rendering of the great
>      philosopher's name?  (I.e., in terms of pronunciation in
>      English) SancaraSankaraZankaraShankaraShancaraShamkara (my
>      favorite)  It seems to me that Shankara and Shamkara both
>      would be fine, although my personal favourite would be
>      Shankara (I believe this is the most usual rendering, too,
>      when indological transliteration isn't used). The forms with
>      -c- are somewhat confusing, since some people might think
>      that the c should be pronounced -tsh-. Zankara is out unless
>      you are using indological translation in the Kyoto-Harvard
>      format. Sankara misses the Indic sound at the beginning of
>      the word. Generally, you cannot make a difference between
>      the three s's unless you use indological transliteration,
>      but you can differentiate between two s's, normal s and sh,
>      which would stand for both z and S in the Kyoto-Harvard
>      format. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse
>


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From safar at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Dec 28 15:43:25 1999
From: safar at PRODIGY.NET (Sunil Mehta)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 09:43:25 -0600
Subject: Query
Message-ID: <161227054695.23782.13884247719525098373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I don't know about Indonesia, but currencies of Malayasia and Singapore
do use coins.

Sunil



Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote:

> Dear members of the list,
>
> Can someone tell me whether coins are used in the modern currency of
> Singapore, Indonesia, or Malaysia?
>
> Thank you, and Happy New Year,
>
> Ruth Schmidt
>
> ***********************************************
> Ruth Laila Schmidt
> Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
> University of Oslo
> P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
> N-0315 Oslo, Norway
> Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
> Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
> Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no




From sb51 at SOAS.AC.UK  Tue Dec 28 09:52:21 1999
From: sb51 at SOAS.AC.UK (Stefan Baums)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 10:52:21 +0100
Subject: The Philosopher's Name in English?
In-Reply-To: <014001bf50ce$a9d29ae0$bc810a3f@win95>
Message-ID: <161227054685.23782.10663880314302641986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, Dec 27, 1999 at 07:58:31PM -0500, george9252 wrote:

> What is the best ENGLISH LANGUAGE rendering of the great
> philosopher's name?  (I.e., in terms of pronunciation in English)

In terms of best approximation to authentic pronunciation probably
"Shankara": the <'s> is a palatal sibilant, the anusvara <.m> here is
a stand-in for the nasal of the same place of articulation as the
following occlusive <k>, i. e., is a velar nasal, just as the English
<n> usually is in front of a velar.

Stefan

--
PGP-ID: 4AF752D0




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Dec 28 10:15:04 1999
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 11:15:04 +0100
Subject: The Philosopher's Name in English?
Message-ID: <161227054687.23782.13233338085068684699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



  What is the best ENGLISH LANGUAGE rendering of the great philosopher's name?  (I.e., in terms of pronunciation in English)

  Sancara
  Sankara
  Zankara
  Shankara
  Shancara
  Shamkara (my favorite)


  It seems to me that Shankara and Shamkara both would be fine, although my personal favourite would be Shankara (I believe this is the most usual rendering, too, when indological transliteration isn't used). The forms with -c- are somewhat confusing, since some people might think that the c should be pronounced -tsh-. Zankara is out unless you are using indological translation in the Kyoto-Harvard format. Sankara misses the Indic sound at the beginning of the word. Generally, you cannot make a difference between the three s's unless you use indological transliteration, but you can differentiate between two s's, normal s and sh, which would stand for both z and S in the Kyoto-Harvard format. 

  Best regards,

  Lars Martin Fosse


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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 28 19:53:37 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 11:53:37 -0800
Subject: Mimamsa, Vedanta etc.
Message-ID: <161227054707.23782.10599784477640233379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Pl. take a look at fig. 17 in C. Sivaramamurti,
Bhagavatpada Sri Sankaracharya, Delhi, 1972.

The fig. 17 sculpture: Is he a Buddha or Adi Sankara?

Kanchi temples are usually of sandstone they wear away over centuries;
Kailasanatha temple, for example, has been fully plastered over
with cement.

Is the Kanchi temple in Sivaramamurti's book also plastered?

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 28 21:17:14 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 13:17:14 -0800
Subject: Mimamsa, Vedanta etc.
Message-ID: <161227054709.23782.3366583709281937645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>C.Sivaramamurti seems to have decided that since the panel represented
>an ekadandin, that must be sha.nkara. A hypothesis only, but not
>completely unjustified I would say. Especially considering the fact
>that the ekadandin seems to be a youth, while the other two are very
>old. But, definitely the young person in the sculpture represents an
>advaitin. None one other than advaitins carry ekadaNDa and
>K.A.Venkataramans contention that they could be pAshupatas is quite
>absurd.

The contention about pASupata ascetics was with reference to figures from
the kAyArohaNa temple and some others, not the one pictured in
Sivaramamurti's book. Since the publication of Sivaramamurti's book, a
number of other sculptures have been also identified as representing
Sankara. And yes, ekadandin need not mean Sankara. The figures have to be
studied impartially, without letting any preconceptions cloud one's
judgment. Frankly, that seems quite impossible as of now.

Vidyasankar
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From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Tue Dec 28 18:22:37 1999
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 13:22:37 -0500
Subject: Mimamsa, Vedanta etc.
Message-ID: <161227054704.23782.5730320005557951719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> There is no "standard" academic opinion, as far as I am aware. I
don't think
> any proper critical examination has been made of all the sculptures
that
> have been claimed to represent Sankara. The intersection set of art
> historians and academic vedAnta scholars is probably a null set. In
spite of
> his impeccable credentials, Sivaramamurti may have only seen what he
was
> expected (or told?) to see by a higher authority. I, for one, am
quite
> skeptical about it.

The panel clearly shows one ekadandin (fig.18 in his book Bhagavatpada
Sankaracarya). Of course, I agree that ekadaNDin   does not
necessarily mean it has to be Sha.nkara. However, pAshupata-s never
carried an ekadaNDa. It's neither mentioned in the pAshupata works
themselves nor in other works describing pAshupata-s. Surely
K.A.Venkataraman should know that! I don't know if K.A.Venkataraman is
being unduly biased in this regard. Just because some sculptures of
sha.nkara are found in some place, it does not mean he established a
Mutt there. Eg,  C.Sivaramamurti identifies some sculpture from the
9th century in Srinagar as Sha.nkara also (fig. 17 in the same book).
But, he didn't establish any mutt in Srinagar.

I read C.Sivaramamurtis book and as far as I can see it's only a
*hypothesis* that the triad is vyAsa, jaimini and sha.nkara.
C.Sivaramamurti seems to have decided that since the panel represented
an ekadandin, that must be sha.nkara. A hypothesis only, but not
completely unjustified I would say. Especially considering the fact
that the ekadandin seems to be a youth, while the other two are very
old. But, definitely the young person in the sculpture represents an
advaitin. None one other than advaitins carry ekadaNDa and
K.A.Venkataramans contention that they could be pAshupatas is quite
absurd.

C.Sivaramamurti also appears well read in the works of Sha.nkara. The
original Cambodian inscription identification was also made by none
other than K.A.Nilakantha Sastry himself.

Rama




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 28 18:24:51 1999
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 13:24:51 -0500
Subject: On Sankara's date -2 (was Mimamsa, Vedanta etc.)
Message-ID: <161227054706.23782.6610491071257865851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 12/27/99 9:18:58 PM Central Standard Time,
vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

> 3. The word 'Mimamsa' originally might have covered both the 'Karma Mimamsa'
>  of Jaimini (in 16 Chapters) and the Brahmamimamsa of Badarayana (in 4
>  chapters). Epigraphic evidence from Tamil Nadu mentions Brahmins subsisting
>  on 'Bhattavrtti' by studying the Mimamsa of 20 chapters.

This inscription is presumably the ANiyUr inscription, no. 76 of 1932. I have
not seen the ARE publication. But a secondary source, "The Development of
Education During the Coola Period" by Mrs. Loganayagy Sivasubramaniam in the
International Tamil Conference (Madurai) Proceedings, refers to this. The
bhaTTa was supposed to have eight qualifications. I am quoting the seventh
one, as described by Sivasubramaniam.

"(7) He should further be able to comment properly upon vimsical Athyaayam
Miimaamsa saastra i.e. to expand elaborately the Miimaamsa saastra in all its
twenty chapters."

It is not clear what the inscription says and what the scholar interprets.
Does anybody have access to this inscription, no.76 of 1932?

As for Vidyasankar's observation,  "Although there have been many gRhastha
authors in then tradition, the study of vedAnta is intimately associated with
saMnyAsa", the Kasakkudi plates  provide an interesting detail. These plates
were issued in the 28th year of Nandivarman II who ruled from 731-796 AD.
Here the recipient, a householder with sons and grandsons, is praised as an
expert in karmakANDa and jJAnakANDa among a whole lot of fields of study.

But the eNNAyiram inscription does seem to make a distinction between the
teacher of mImAMsA and that of vedAnta. The daily allowance of paddy given to
 the vedAnta teacher was substantially more than the one given to the mImAMsA
teacher. However, along with the teachers of other subjects, the mImAMsA
teacher was also paid a specific amount of gold as the remuneration for
teaching each chapter. The vedAnta teacher did not receive any gold.

How firm are the dates of vAcaspati mizra and bhAskara? Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO  Tue Dec 28 13:00:58 1999
From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 15:00:58 +0200
Subject: Query
Message-ID: <161227054689.23782.5492290624885017202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the list,

Can someone tell me whether coins are used in the modern currency of
Singapore, Indonesia, or Malaysia?

Thank you, and Happy New Year,

Ruth Schmidt


***********************************************
Ruth Laila Schmidt
Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 29 00:00:28 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 16:00:28 -0800
Subject: On zankara's date - 2 (The view of Dvaraka Math)
Message-ID: <161227054711.23782.15343714481986099335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar said:
In a letter to Swami Tapasyananda of the Ramakrishna Mission (reproduced in
his translation of the mAdhavIya Sankaravijayam), the Sringeri Matha has
officially declined to attach a firm date to this tradition. However,
contemporary Matha publications often give the 788-820 CE dates that have
generally come to be accepted in India.
VA comments: During the '12th Centenary' celebrations in 1988, Swami
Svarupanand Sarasvati of Dvaraka Matha delivered a pravachana near my home
in Delhi where he categorically said that he does not accept 788 C.E. as the
birth year of Bhagvatpada. Besides the typical arguments in favor of the 6th
Cent. B.C.E date (Copper place of Sudhanva etc., a date that he says he
accepts, he remarked that although Bhagvatpada has lambasted all the sects
of India in his writings, it is strange that he chose to remain silent about
the doctrines of St. Thomas and his follower Christians although the regions
around Kaladi is intimately related to them. This is just FYI, not to
suggest my acceptance of the earlier date (which is untenable in my
opinion).
__________________
Vidyasankar stated: Although there have been many gRhastha authors in the
tradition, the study of vedAnta is intimately associated with saMnyAsa. One
alternative name for bAdarAyaNa's brahma-sUtra is bhikshu-sUtra.
VA comments: Are you referring to the Bhikshu sutras of Karmanda and
Parasharya mentioned in the Ashtadhyayi of Panini? While Veda Vyasa himself
is called Parasharya, the Mahabharata also states that Samkhyacharya
Panchasikha was also of Parashara Gotra. In fact, numerous Jaina, Buddhist
etc, sources describe the followers of Panchasikha as 'Parasharya' Bhikhsu.
(See for instance the Tamil epic Neelakesi, where the follower of Samkhya is
'Parashara'). There is a tradition going back to atleast 7 centuries in
which even the words "Brahmasutrapadascaiva yuktimad...." of Gita are
considered referring to Samkhyasutras (See the Tatparyachandrika of Sri
Vedanta Desika--concluding remaks, where he quotes the opinion of a
Purvacharya who is YadavaPrakasha of 11th Cent. in my opinion). Of course,
the Vedantasutras themselves are called 'Bhikshusutras' in later literature
too (do not recall references off-hand)

Best wishes

Vishal
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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 29 00:23:16 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 16:23:16 -0800
Subject: Mimamsa, Vedanta etc.
Message-ID: <161227054713.23782.2048265714552990507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: "N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Mimamsa, Vedanta etc.
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:58:10 PST

Naga Ganesan asked:
Is the "Manimekhali" here refering to the buddhist epic, ma.nimEkalai?
VA: Responds: Yes, it was a typo. I reproduce the relevant passage (from
Danielou's translation): "Before enquiring of the chief representative of
the Vedic tradition, Manimekhalai first contacted a Pramanavadi who belonged
to this sect. He expounded to her the logical conceptions and the Pramanas
envisaged by Mimamsa. In explaining the means of Knowledge, the pramanavadi
referred to 3 Sages: Veda Vyasa, who divided the Vedas into 4 parts,;
Krtakoti (the commentator) and the infallible logician Jaimini. These 3
thinkers have established that instruments of knowledge through which the
validity of any theory can be determined are, according to the school,
either 10 or 8 or 6 in number."
In my opinion, he Manimekahlai is of no use in establishing the date of
Samkaracharya. For one, the text does not even mention the Pallavas,
although it names the Chola-Chera-Pandya dynasties. Even after Bhagvatpada
Samkaracharya and Kumarila/Prabhakara, Jayanta Bhatta still refers to 'the
followers of Vrttikara Upavarsha' in his Nyayamanjari. For that matter, if
the astronomical configuration for the date of birth of Buddha in the
Manimekhalai is considered, we arrive at approximately 1850 B.C.E !!! (a
date which some seem to derive from the Puranas as well).

Naga Ganesan said:
Dakshinamurti bas-relief panel is Sankara. A team of three saints,
whom Sivaramamurti identifies them as Jaimini, Vyasa and Sankara.
Other scholars say that this kind of deification appears to be too
early and, more likely is Jaimini, Vyasa and Krtakoti.
VA: There is no tradition about Krtakoti/Upavarsha having died young (see
accounts in Subandhu's Vasavadatta, or the Avantisundari etc.). He appears
to be from Vallabhi/Vidarbha and is said to have travelled to Pataliputra
(Mahapadma Nanda's court) with Vyadi etc. However, from the fantastic
descriptions given in these accounts (like Lord Skanda creating a cleavage
in his tongue and stuffing Wisdoom therein), it appears that Upavarsha
Acharya (= Krtakoti. Halabhuti, Bodhayana) was already a legendary figure by
550-600 C.E. And of course, the Sabara Bhashya and subcommentaries on
Slokavarttika use epithets like 'Bhagvan' for him.

Best wishes

Vishal
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From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 29 01:33:07 1999
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 17:33:07 -0800
Subject: On Sankara's date -2 (was Mimamsa, Vedanta etc.)
Message-ID: <161227054715.23782.12627857282009902503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Palaniappan wrote:
This inscription is presumably the ANiyUr inscription, no. 76 of 1932.
VA: Yes.

Dr. Palaniappan: I am quoting the seventh one, as described by
Sivasubramaniam.
"(7) He should further be able to comment properly upon vimsical Athyaayam
Miimaamsa saastra i.e. to expand elaborately the Miimaamsa saastra in all
its twenty chapters."
It is not clear what the inscription says and what the scholar interprets.
VA responds: This is not an interpretation. See for instance S. Krishnaswami
Ayyangar in Woolner Com. Volume (Lahore)on this inscription. For the unity
of the two Mimamsas, consider the words "Krtsnashastra..." of Brahmasutra
Bhashya 3.3.53 of Sri Sankaracharya which clarify that Vedanta and Purva
Mimamsa formed he 'complete' shastra. The fact that Bhagvatpada excluded the
Purva Mimamsa as a prerequiste for the study of Vedanta itself drew a chorus
of protests from his opponents who quoted the Vrttikara (See the BS Bhashyas
of Bhaskara, Ramanuja)  to prove the 'Shastraikya' of Purva and Uttara
Mimamsas. To make long matters short, the Vedantasutras themselves refer to
the PM sutras with words 'taduktam' etc., showing that the BS presuppose the
PM. See also the discussion on this subject in Pancapadika of
Padmapadacharya for Pre-Samkara opinions. Nevertheless, the two portions of
Mimamsa had diverged to some extent before Bhagvatpada himself and had
different streams of commentators too. On the BS, some pre-Samkara
scholiasts are Brahmandin, Dramidacharya (who saluted Jaimini along with
Vyasa in the Mangalasloka of his Bhaskya--quoted in Srutaprakasika);
Brahmadatta and so on. Then, there were commentators on various Upanishads
(Bharatrprapanca, Brahmanadin, Dramida, Guhadeva, Bhavatrata etc.). See also
the usage of 'Brahmamimamsa' for BS in late works like the Prabhavali of
Sambhubhatta and the Prasthanabheda of Madhusudana Sarasvati. Only Mimamsa
is mentioned in Shadadarsha-samucchaya as well (Vedanta is not mentioned
separately).
____________
Dr. Palaniappan:As for Vidyasankar's observation,  "Although there have been
many gRhastha authors in then tradition, the study of vedAnta is intimately
associated with saMnyAsa", the Kasakkudi plates  provide an interesting
detail. These plates were issued in the 28th year of Nandivarman II who
ruled from 731-796 AD......
VA: Not only the Grhasasthas, but also the Vanaprashtins. For instance, Manu
advocates that the Vanaprasthis should study the Vedas "Sakalpa, sarahasyam"
_____________________
Dr. Palaniappan: How firm are the dates of vAcaspati mizra and bhAskara?
VA responds: We are very certain about the date of Vacaspati Misra because
colophons of his works give the year in which he wrote one of his work.
Besides, citations from his works appear in the works of other Nyaya etc.
scholars who are dated in the early half of 10th Cent. As an independent
testimony, consider the fact that Vacaspati remembers his Guru Trilochana in
the Mangala verses of Bhamati. This Trilochana, an eminent Naiyyayika, has
been dated sometime after 725 C.E. (around 800-825 C.E.) on the testimony of
Buddhist and Jaina texts by
Esther Solomon; Sanskrit and World Culture, SCHR.OR 18, S. 560-566, Berlin
1986.
The article also establishes the traditional relationship between Vacaspati
and Trilochana.

Bhaskara is refuted by Vacaspati in Bhamati. Besides some flimsy
contradictory opinions by B. N. K. Sharma, Bhaskaracharya is considered a
comtemporary of Bhagvatpada Samkara. Dr. V. Raghavan has written articles
comparing the BG Bhashya of Bhaskara to show how Bhaskara has paraphrased
Samkara's BG Bhashya while refuting the same (Although Bhaskara refers to
and refutes other 'Mayavadins' also. Besides, in his Srutaprakasika, Sri
Sudarsana Bhatta refers to Pre-Samkara Mahyavadins as "Jarat-mayavadins".
The views of this category are similar to those of Brahmadatta cited
elsewhere). The close chronology of Bhaskara and Sankara is very clear from
the Chhandogya Upanishad Bhashya of Bhaskara (fragments cited profusely in
Narottama Puri's Tippana) where Bhaskara alleges that Bhagvatpada 'stole'
some words from others in his Bhashya. Narottama Puri responds that it IS
Bhaskara who is the thief because he has copied passage after passage from
Bhagvatpada's commentary. (Narottama Puri's Tippana formed the basis of
Anadagiri's Tika on Chhandogya Bhashya, which is very clear when the two
works are read). The Tippana has been published from Mt. Abu.
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From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Wed Dec 29 01:45:11 1999
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99 18:45:11 -0700
Subject: On zankara's date - 2 (The view of Dvaraka Math)
In-Reply-To: <19991229000028.198.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054717.23782.16928304808407004934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Regarding Vishal's note(below), is there a copperplate of Sudhanva?
Is Sudhanva of Ujjain historic?

I have another question. Was the classification of philosophies as
orthodox and hetrodox (nastika) first given by Sankara, or did it
predate him?

Yashwant

-----
VA comments: During the '12th Centenary' celebrations in 1988, Swami
Svarupanand Sarasvati of Dvaraka Matha delivered a pravachana near my home
in Delhi where he categorically said that he does not accept 788 C.E. as the
birth year of Bhagvatpada. Besides the typical arguments in favor of the 6th
Cent. B.C.E date (Copper place of Sudhanva etc., a date that he says he
accepts, he remarked that




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 29 12:50:00 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 04:50:00 -0800
Subject: On zankara's date - 2 (The view of Dvaraka Math)
Message-ID: <161227054723.23782.2040274202108069920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yashwant Malaiya <malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU> wrote:

>
>Regarding Vishal's note(below), is there a copperplate of Sudhanva?

Almost a hundred years ago, the Dvaraka Matha published in Devanagari
script, the text of a grant supposedly given by a king named Sudhanva to
Sankara himself. The date given in this grant is in the 6th century BCE.
This grant was listed as evidence in an early 20th century court case
involving the Dvaraka Matha, but never actually introduced during the
hearings. It may be remembered that the succession at the Dvaraka Matha was
under dispute at this time. Some people have questioned whether such a
record of a grant even exists.

Assuming that there is indeed such a copperplate recording a grant, there
are important questions -

1. Is it an original record of what Sudhanva gave, or a copy?
2. What script was it written in? In 6th century BCE, it had to have been
pre-Asokan Brahmi or Kharoshti.
3. Who deciphered it? Where are the details published?
4. Were copperplates used to record events in the 6th c. BCE?

I suspect that some pundit got carried away in his enthusiasm, hit upon the
name Sudhanva in the hagiographic texts, claimed that there was a
copperplate record of his grant to Sankara, and filled in an appropriate
date that would convert to 6th c. BCE. The late 19th century seems to have
been a fertile time for generating such written records and attributing them
to the distant past.

Among the traditional Advaita Mathas, Sringeri is probably alone in
accepting an 8th century CE date for Sankara. Puri, following Dvaraka, also
relies on this Sudhanva grant. Almost all the others claim a date before
Christ. The contemporary authorities in the Mathas know that this is a
significant difference among them, and have candidly acknowledged it (vayaM
matabhedinaH) in the very first sentence of their 1993 resolution on the
Ayodhya issue.

Vidyasankar
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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 29 14:59:07 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 06:59:07 -0800
Subject: Young teachers in Vedanta tradition
Message-ID: <161227054725.23782.15567507894416005680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Tamil tradition, the fountainhead of 'emotional' bhakti movement
among the masses all over India, is full of young or child acharyas.
St. Sambandhar drinking the sivagnana-bodham milk fed by
Uma herself is famous. "*pOtam* mulai curantu aLitta puNNiyat
tAyAraiyum" - on Mother's breast-feeding from PeriyapurANam.
Even Subrahmanyam has taught his father the meaning of "Om"!
MeykaNDaar, the saint who started the saiva siddhanta philosophy
in tamil wrote his very brief "sivagnAna-*bOdham*" and, MeykaNDaar
is the young teacher of the elderly AruLnandi Sivacharyar.
St. Kumaraguruparar wrote his works starting at the age of 5.

In the Mimamsa/Vedanta tradition, are there any saints who started
preaching young (besides Sankara)? Did Upavarsha, Krtakoti, Bodhayana
Bhaskara or Sabara, ... start their teachings early in their life?

Regards,
N. Ganesan




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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 29 16:37:19 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 08:37:19 -0800
Subject: Sankara's portrait
Message-ID: <161227054731.23782.11191653900899536427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>I read C.Sivaramamurtis book and as far as I can see it's only a
>>*hypothesis* that the triad is vyAsa, jaimini and sha.nkara.
>>C.Sivaramamurti seems to have decided that since the panel
>>represented an ekadandin, that must be sha.nkara. A hypothesis only,
>>but not completely unjustified I would say. Especially considering
>>the fact that the ekadandin seems to be a youth, while the other two are
>>very old. But, definitely the young person in the sculpture
>>represents an advaitin. None one other than advaitins carry ekadaNDa [...]

>?From the booklet, C. Sivaramamurti, Bhagavatpada Sri Sankaracharya,
Sankara Academy of Sanskrit Culture and Classical Arts, New Delhi,
1972, it appears that the eminent author has identified a mid-8th
century Sankara sculpture. Could not find any word in the book to
the effect that it's only a hypothesis. Few quotes from the book:

The President of India's Message begins, p. vii:
"                                               December 23, 1971
With his deep knowledge of Indian art, Sri C. Sivaramamurti, has
written with great perception on his discovery of a portrait sculpture
of Bhagavatpada Sri Sankaracharya in a Pallava temple of Kanchipuram.
...   (Signed) V. V. Giri".

Foreword by V. Ramaswami, President of the Academy, p. ix
"It is fascinating account of his discovery of a portrait of Sri
Sankara of the 8th century A.D. ..."

Prefatory Note by C. Sivaramamurti, p. xi
"I little knew that this blessing of his was the harbinger of my
discovery of 'Sankara in a contemporary portrait sculpture
of his in the 8th century Airavatesvara temple at Kanchipuram,
also known as IravathaNezvara. This was just very recently, and
this short paper on Bhagavatpada Sri Sankaracharya is based on
this sculpture which I consider not only an important find
but almost a revelationby the great Master himself".

[Note: Pages numbered p. 1-13 are *not* present in the book.]
List of Illustrations, p. 14:
"Fig. 18 DakshiNAmUrti flanked by Vyasa and Sankara on one side
and Jaimini on the other, Pallava, 8th century A.D.,
IravathaNezavara temple, Kanchipuram".

In the Chapter called Sankara's portrait, p. 38:
"Recently I had an opportunity to examine a number of photographs
from Kanchipuram, when by great good fortune I lighted on a
very important one giving the youthful portrait of Bhagavatpada,
*of his own date*, the 8th century A.D. from a Pallava shrine in
Kanchipuram, the Airavatanezvara, popularly styled IravaNesvara
(Fig. 18)."

  The Kanchi Airavateshvara panel has 3 men on each side of
  Dakshinamurti. It is highly significant that Sivaramamurti does
  *not* discuss the other three at all. Only 3 out of 6 men are
  analyzed and  given the names Vyasa, Jaimini & Sankara. While
  looking at the  panel, it looks like an aging teacher surrounded
  by two students is represented in the panel on each side. All the
  four (2+2) students are with hands held in prayer mudra towards
  their teacher.

  Rajasimha who built the Kailasanatha talks of his mission to
  bolster Shaiva Siddhantam. It is significant no mention
  of Sankara in Tamilnadu or Kerala for several centuries after
  his death. In the 1000s of inscriptions prior to 10th century
  no study of vedanta or advaita is ever mentioned!

  As for DaNDins, it figures in Classical Tamil texts; tri-daNDins
  later Srivaishnavas figure in Kalittokai as MukkOl munivar;
  In all kOvai genre, a std. motif is sorrowful mothers seeking
  help from mukkOl munivars to locate the young girl who has eloped.
  taNTi figuring in tirumantiram, Dandin at the Pallava court,
  taNTi aTikaL of the Saiva Nayanmar group, taNTi, a relative of
  the kAvyAdarza Dandin who wrote the tamil alankAra grammar come
  to mind.

   Given the above, the DaNDin student worshipping his teacher,
   along with three other students, need not be Adi Sankara.
   Contrary to Sivaramamurti's assertion, the Kanchi sculpture
   may not be the *contemporary* portrait of Sankara.

   Regards,
   N. Ganesan



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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 29 16:48:48 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 08:48:48 -0800
Subject: On zankara's date - 2 (The view of Dvaraka Math)
Message-ID: <161227054733.23782.15022463012839004340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Somayaji Rajagopala <SSRVJ at AOL.COM> wrote:

><< 788-820 CE dates that have generally come to be accepted in India. >>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------------------------------------------
>I think the statement "generally come to be accepted in India" seems to be
>NOT correct.

By "generally accepted," I meant what one routinely finds quoted by most
writers. 788 was the date quoted by one of the earliest publications on this
issue, when K. B. Pathak reported about a manuscript. The more recent
revision to some date between 700-750 CE, that is supported by Nakamura,
Mayeda, Hacker and others, is not very well known in India. Kunjunni Raja of
the Adyar Library supports a later date in the 8th century. That the year
1988 was called the 1200th anniversary of Sankara also means that GOI gave
an official nod to the date.

>I srongly feel the "Astronomical Information" ,if
>carefully analysed with other Internal Evidences(Archealogical etc) may
>settle these controversies at Rest, once and for all. Ofcourse I have read
>the books of Sri.K.R.Venkatrama Iyer  and Sri.S.Y.Krishnaswamy Iyer(-later-
>sri.Gjnaanaanadha Bharathi ).I had a long personal discussion on this
>subject
>at Enaathur with Dr.Nagaswami also,when he was the Vice-Chancellor of
>Sri.Chandrasekarendra Saraswathi (Deemed) University.So I feel the question
>is still "Open"-nothing can be said to be settled "As on date"

Astronomical information, or rather astrological information, has been
analyzed by noted astrologers in India. If I remember right, they came up
with a date of 1st century CE or so, not 6th century BCE, and not 7th-8th
century CE. Furthermore, the text which is supposed to contain this
astrological information is untraceable, even in quotations. And there is
competing astrological information that leads to a date of around 805 CE.
Prof. John Grimes can probably fill in some details about this, as I know he
was researching this issue recently. And then, consider how the date for
Sankara Jayanti was fixed by the then Sringeri Sankaracharya, almost a
hundred years ago. The name Sankara was converted to a number according to
the kaTapayAdi scheme, to give 2nd month (ra), first fortnight (ka), 5th day
(Sa). That was how it was decided to designate Visakha Sukla Pancami as
Sankara Jayanti. There was no astrological information used here.

The Matha lists are highly troublesome, unfortunately for many defenders of
tradition. I might sound extremely partisan when I say this, but only the
Sringeri list seems to be believable, especially in the post-14th century
period. The Kanchi list is full of problems, even for the 17th-18th century.
For example, the Kanchi list says that Paramasivendra Sarasvati, guru of the
famous Sadasiva Brahmendra, lived around 1565 CE. However, there is
substantial and reliable historical evidence from Tanjavur and Pudukkottai,
to assign a date of 1675 CE or so. The gap of a century is highly
significant. As for the Dvaraka and Puri lists, the latter has more than 140
names, while the former has around 70 names. Not much independent
information is available for assigning proper dates to these names.

Do step out of the conflicting claims of the various Mathas, or the
astrological information, and look at the critical academic discussion of
Sankara's date. Unless all of Indian history is rewritten, and for strong
reasons, there can be absolutely no possibility of accepting any date
earlier than 700 CE, give or take a few decades.

Vidyasankar
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From SSRVJ at AOL.COM  Wed Dec 29 15:52:56 1999
From: SSRVJ at AOL.COM (Somayaji Rajagopala)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 10:52:56 -0500
Subject: On zankara's date - 2 (The view of Dvaraka Math)
Message-ID: <161227054726.23782.13570338047934008051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 12/28/99 7:01:19 PM EST, vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

<< 788-820 CE dates that have generally come to be accepted in India. >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
I think the statement "generally come to be accepted in India" seems to be
NOT correct.The Aamnaaya Peetams in Dwaraka and Puri have not accepted 788
.C.E.as is evident from the discussions itself.The Kamakoti Peetam at
Kanchipuram,which is not an Aamnaaya Peetam,but has a reasonable following in
Tamilnadu claims 500-600 B.C.E. as the Period of Acharya
sri.Sankara.(Co-insiding with 6th Century B.C.E. of Dwaraka's and Puri's
claim).They claim a continuous chain of 70 "Peetaathipathis" starting with
Acharya sri.Sankara (Kamakoti official Home-Page) in 2500 years,(of whom 3
"Peetaathipathis names are given,who are claimed to have lived to a ripe old
age of 100 years) as against Sringeri Peetam's claim of 36 "Peetaathipathis"-
(in 1200 years)"in the line of Succession from Adi Sankara"( Sringeri Peetam
official Home-Page).I srongly feel the "Astronomical Information" ,if
carefully analysed with other Internal Evidences(Archealogical etc) may
settle these controversies at Rest, once and for all. Ofcourse I have read
the books of Sri.K.R.Venkatrama Iyer  and Sri.S.Y.Krishnaswamy Iyer(-later-
sri.Gjnaanaanadha Bharathi ).I had a long personal discussion on this subject
at Enaathur with Dr.Nagaswami also,when he was the Vice-Chancellor of
Sri.Chandrasekarendra Saraswathi (Deemed) University.So I feel the question
is still "Open"-nothing can be said to be settled "As on date"




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Wed Dec 29 19:12:51 1999
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 12:12:51 -0700
Subject: On zankara's date - 2 (The view of Dvaraka Math)
In-Reply-To: <19991229125000.99869.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054735.23782.3871369583249018303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar wrote:

>Some people have questioned whether such a record of a grant even exists.

>Assuming that there is indeed such a copperplate recording a grant, there
>are important questions -
>1. Is it an original record of what Sudhanva gave, or a copy?
>2. What script was it written in? In 6th century BCE, it had to have been
>pre-Asokan Brahmi or Kharoshti.
>3. Who deciphered it? Where are the details published?
>4. Were copperplates used to record events in the 6th c. BCE?

The oldest known texts in India are a few, extremely rare
pre-Ashoka texts, among them the Sohgaura copper plate and
the Mahasthan inscription, perhaps from Chandragupta Maurya's
period. Sohgaura copper plate has been stolen and is in some
private collection.

Thus if the Sudhanva plate exists, it would be an extremely
important object.

Is the text in Sanskrit? All known inscriptions well until about
first cent. BCE or so are in Prakrit (Pali).

Yashwant




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 29 20:43:05 1999
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 12:43:05 -0800
Subject: On zankara's date - 2 (The view of Dvaraka Math)
Message-ID: <161227054738.23782.6766972421373983030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yashwant Malaiya <malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU> wrote:

>The oldest known texts in India are a few, extremely rare
>pre-Ashoka texts, among them the Sohgaura copper plate and

I guess that answers one of my questions.

>the Mahasthan inscription, perhaps from Chandragupta Maurya's
>period. Sohgaura copper plate has been stolen and is in some
>private collection.
>
>Thus if the Sudhanva plate exists, it would be an extremely
>important object.

Indeed. I doubt that it exists. If it does exist, it has never been made
available for critical examination. Of course, even if something like this
does exist, its genuineness will have to be proved. The published Devanagari
script text of the claimed plate is in classical Sanskrit, not Prakrit/Pali.

Vidyasankar
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From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO  Wed Dec 29 11:49:45 1999
From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 13:49:45 +0200
Subject: Coins
Message-ID: <161227054721.23782.9969009372662475058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My thanks to those members of the list who responded to my query about
coins. The information was what I needed.

Happy New Year,

Ruth Schmidt


***********************************************
Ruth Laila Schmidt
Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no




From dbgray62 at HOME.COM  Wed Dec 29 19:35:25 1999
From: dbgray62 at HOME.COM (DAVID GRAY)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 14:35:25 -0500
Subject: Reference needed for a Max Nihom pub.
Message-ID: <161227054737.23782.11106697806951988285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Max Nihom's book STUDIES IN INDIAN AND INDO-INDONESIAN TANTRISM
(Vienna 1994), he mentioned a hitherto unpublished article of his
entitled "On Attracting Women and Tantric Initiation: TillotamA and
Hevajratantra II.v.38-47 and I.vii.8-9".  Does anyone know if this
article has been published, and if so, where and when?  Alternatively,
if anyone knows Dr. Nihom's email address I would appreciate it if she
or he would provide it to me.

David B. Gray
Columbia University




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Wed Dec 29 16:19:48 1999
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 16:19:48 +0000
Subject: On zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227054728.23782.14597932596930346927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> << 788-820 CE dates that have generally come to be accepted in
India. >>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> ---------------------------------------------
> I think the statement "generally come to be accepted in India" seems
to be
> NOT correct.

There are also the Buddhist traditions preserved in Tibetan sources
that places Shankara around the time of the Yogacarin Dharmapaala and
the logician Dharmakiirti.  The latter is said to have engaged
Shankara in debate.  Some aspects of the accounts are likely to be
apocryphal but still suggest the above quoted dates are at least 120
years too late.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

[admin note: original date changed from Tue Dec 29 16:19:48 2099]




From swantham at TECHPARK.NET  Wed Dec 29 14:26:54 1999
From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 19:56:54 +0530
Subject: On zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227054719.23782.6509055521907020842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ample evidence has already been presented in the discussions as regards the
date of Sankara. Study of Vedas and performance of sacrifices were  the
tradition of the Brahmins.For this Vedanta was not necessary.It was Sankara
who took to sannyasa against the tradition.He faced the repurcussions
too.The Brahmins boyctted his mother's funeral.It was after Sankara that
Vedanta came to be taught in the Sabhamadhams.
Maheswaran Nair

----------
> From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> Subject: On zankara's date - 2
> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 5:46 AM
>
> In the period between the founding of the pArttivacEkarapuram college in
the
> second half of the 9th century and the grant to the eNNAyiram college in
the
> first half of 11th century, vedAnta has come to be included as a subject
of
> study in the Sanskrit Colleges in Tamilnadu/Kerala. I think the change
was
> probably due to zankara's influence.
>
> According to the advaita web site, "The Sringeri maTha's record states
that
> Sankara was born in the 14th year of the reign of vikramAditya. The
record
> does not give any clue about the identity of this king." On the basis of
the
> identification of this vikramAditya with one of the two Chalukya kings,
> vikramAditya I and vikramAditya II, some scholars seem to have argued for
a
> 700 AD date. (But we find later vikramAdityas  V and VI of the  Chalukyas
of
> Kalyani in the 11th century. This means there were probably two other
> vikramAdityas in the intervening centuries.) But if we suppose that  the
> Sringeri tradition is based on information related to kings in Kerala and
not
> Karnataka, we get some interesting results.
>
> The south Kerala/Tamilnadu Ay king karunantaTakkan2's successor was
called
> vikramAditya varaguNa.  It is not known when exactly he began his rule.
The
> name suggests that he must have been a contemporary of his Pandyan
overlord
> varaguNa II who ruled between 862-880 AD. This means that if we place
zankara
> in the second half of the 9th century, then we can explain the absence of
> vedAntic studies at the colleges at kAntalUrccAlai and
pArttivacekarapuram.
> It will also explain  the king's name vikramAditya. It will make zankara
a
> contemporary of mANikkavAcakar. Then mANikkavAcakar's reference to
"mAyAvAda,
> the hurricane that blew and roared" might refer to zankara's efforts.
> mANikkavAcakar might have outlived zankara.
>
> If there are any confirmed absolute dates for post-zankaran scholars that
> will conflict with this analysis, then this may have to be revised.
>
> By the way, why was the study of vedAnta less popular than the study of
> mImAMsA among the Tamilnadu/Kerala brahmins? Did buddhism dominate the
> tradition of philosophical speculation in the Tamil region?
>
> Regards
> S. Palaniappan




From poopathi at AA.NET  Thu Dec 30 05:28:52 1999
From: poopathi at AA.NET (Poopathi Manickam)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 21:28:52 -0800
Subject: Age of the Veda
Message-ID: <161227054742.23782.13491498183877143703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"S.Kalyanaraman" wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Sometime back there was a reference to the work Vedic People by Rajesh
> Kochhar. Here is a sample of the 'research' work:
>
> (p.131): "There have already been suggestions that A_rji_ki_ya_ be identified
> with Afghanistan. Lakes like S'aryan.a_vant and Anyatahplaks.a_ can easily be
> placed in the hilly area of Koh-e Baba from where the Helmand starts. The
> place name Girishk in the region is probably an old name connected with Giri,
> the mountain. (The R.gveda names a operson Giriks.it). In this picture, the
> origina Gan:ga_ and Yamuna_ are the tributaries of the Helmand lying between
> the Helmand and Arghandab. It is now easy to understand the association of
> Pa_ra_vatas, the mountain people, with Yamuna_ and Sarasvati_."
>
> Isn't it more than a leap of faith to find Gan:ga_ and Yamuna_ in Afghanistan
> while we do appreciate the continuing indololgical passion in search of the
> indo-europeans and proto-aryans?
>
> The present day names of rivers and tributaries close to Helmand (according to
> Dupree,L., 1980, 'Afghanistan', Princeton) are listed as: Khusk, Rudi-Gaz,
> Harut-rud, Khuspas, Khash-rud, Rud Musa Qula, Kai-rud, Garmiah, Kushk-Nashud,
> Arghandab, Tamak, Lora, Dori, Arghastah, Kushk-e Rud, Kadanoi, Ghazni, Jiiga.
>
> Try tracing Vedic hydronomy, driven by Marx, in this list...
>
> Regards, Kalyanaraman
__________________________________________________________________

        "How do you know God/dess didn't spake to Marx...?"

        Rgds.../Poopathi Manickam
__________________________________________________________________




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 30 14:46:56 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 99 06:46:56 -0800
Subject: On zankara's date -2
Message-ID: <161227054745.23782.17266010584277207223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar wrote:
>I remember having read somewhere (Sewell perhaps?) that there is a
>similar reference (14th year of vikramAditya) in konkuteca rAcAkkaL.
>The problem is that there are too many vikramAdityas to choose from,
>even within one dynasty, and of course, many dynasties to choose
>from!

Sewell perhaps had not seen koGkutEca rAcAkkaL in print; Or,
does the Forgotten Empire mention k.racakkal mss.? The KR is
too late and may not be reliable/useful.

Would assign a higher weightage to inscriptions on vikramaditya
from Kerala/Tamilnadu region in late 8th or 9th centuries to
know Sankara's dates.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


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From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Thu Dec 30 07:48:59 1999
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 99 07:48:59 +0000
Subject: Age of the Veda
Message-ID: <161227054740.23782.18008197120548081425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
Sometime back there was a reference to the work Vedic People by Rajesh
Kochhar. Here is a sample of the 'research' work:

(p.131): "There have already been suggestions that A_rji_ki_ya_ be identified
with Afghanistan. Lakes like S'aryan.a_vant and Anyatahplaks.a_ can easily be
placed in the hilly area of Koh-e Baba from where the Helmand starts. The
place name Girishk in the region is probably an old name connected with Giri,
the mountain. (The R.gveda names a operson Giriks.it). In this picture, the
origina Gan:ga_ and Yamuna_ are the tributaries of the Helmand lying between
the Helmand and Arghandab. It is now easy to understand the association of
Pa_ra_vatas, the mountain people, with Yamuna_ and Sarasvati_."

Isn't it more than a leap of faith to find Gan:ga_ and Yamuna_ in Afghanistan
while we do appreciate the continuing indololgical passion in search of the
indo-europeans and proto-aryans? 

The present day names of rivers and tributaries close to Helmand (according to
Dupree,L., 1980, 'Afghanistan', Princeton) are listed as: Khusk, Rudi-Gaz,
Harut-rud, Khuspas, Khash-rud, Rud Musa Qula, Kai-rud, Garmiah, Kushk-Nashud,
Arghandab, Tamak, Lora, Dori, Arghastah, Kushk-e Rud, Kadanoi, Ghazni, Jiiga.

Try tracing Vedic hydronomy, driven by Marx, in this list...

Regards, Kalyanaraman

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From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ  Thu Dec 30 10:36:56 1999
From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 99 10:36:56 +0000
Subject: Reference needed for a Max Nihom pub.
In-Reply-To: <386A627D.283D3418@home.com>
Message-ID: <161227054744.23782.2868809429480864117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> In Max Nihom's book STUDIES IN INDIAN AND INDO-INDONESIAN TANTRISM
> (Vienna 1994), he mentioned a hitherto unpublished article of his
> entitled "On Attracting Women and Tantric Initiation: TillotamA and
> Hevajratantra II.v.38-47 and I.vii.8-9".

BSOAS 58.3 (1995): 521-531

--
 Lubomir Ondracka
=============================================
 Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies
 Charles University
 Namesti Jana Palacha 2
 116 38 Prague 1
 Czech Republic
---------------------------------------------
 e-mail:   ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz
---------------------------------------------
 phone:    00420-2-21619356
=============================================




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 30 20:13:48 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 99 12:13:48 -0800
Subject: zimIdin, ziva, zibi
Message-ID: <161227054749.23782.7029626607345832632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"ziva" occurs mostly as an adjective in the Rig Veda. In Tamil,
the adjective, "cem-" means 1) "good/auspicious" and 2) "red" in
many, many words. In Dravidian, word-initial k- & c- alternate
(cf. Emeneau's paper, JAOS). Tamil "kempu" = red ruby;
"kempaTTikai" = ruby necklace; Ear = "kivi" (kannada) = "cevi"
(tamil). Similar to "tamizh" > "dramiDa" > "draviDa", it was discussed
here drav. "kem" (good/elegant/graceful) > Skt. "zima" > Skt. "ziva".
Notably, ziva with the meanings obtained in Vedic does not occur
in Avestan and Old Iranian.

The root "kem-"(good) can form a word: "kimIdin/zimIdin",
"kimIdA/zimIdA"; Vedic Aryan texts call "kimIdin" & "kimIdA" as
demon & demoness respectively. "kimIdin/zimIdin" may be compared to
the kannada proper  name, "kempe"; One main street in Bangalore is
called after Kempe Gowda;- That "kempe" served Wodeyars in important
positions. Many gothrams among tamil castes call themselves as
"cempan". Cholas are called "cempiyar" in classical sangam texts.

After a few centuries of Vedic period where "kimIdin/zimIdin" and
"ziva" are attested, an important name from Buddhist jatakas
begins to appear: "zibi". Is "zibi" related to "ziva" etymologically?
Greek accounts talk of a group of people as Siboi;
This corresponds to people of zibi-deza (Siboi are neighbors of the
Sudroi in Greek sources, sudroi < zUdras). zibi country is
located in Jhang dist. in the Pakistani Panjab (Awasthi, Purana index,
1992). Are "kimIdin/zimIdin" folks of "zibi-deza"?

In Tamil sangam poems dating to 2nd or 1st cent. BCE,
Chola kings (cempiyar) are traced to King Zibi who is said to have
given refuge to a dove and gave his own flesh instead to the eagle
pursuing the dove.

  "You are a descendent of that powerful man who was generous
   without end and who because he was afraid a dove might die
   that had come to him for shelter, escaping with its tiny steps
   from the swoop of a kite with sharp claws and curving wings,
   entered the scale, and at the act, even among the holy men ..."
     (Translation of puRam 43 by Hart & Heifetz;
     Their translation of the entire puRanAnURu will appear
     next month from Columbia univ. press).

PuRam 228 calls the Cholas by their well-known name, "cempiyar".

It appears kimIdin/zimIdin, ziva, and (later) zibi are related
to the Dravidian adjective, "kem-" (good as well as red).
Have submitted the tamil etymology 1) for karko.taka/zarko.taka
as "gem-giver" (#43, 25-nov-99 Indology post) and 2) tamil
kATikam/kAzakam > Skt. zATI on 19-dec-99.

Does this proposed change from Dravidian k- -> z- and, the change
inherent in Dravidian between k- & c-,  play a role in
IE *k to Vedic z-? Any thoughts on this are most welcome.

Happy New Millennium!
N. Ganesan



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From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Dec 30 18:15:44 1999
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 99 13:15:44 -0500
Subject: Looking for old books
Message-ID: <161227054747.23782.3819698974952126419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Klaus,

Did you ever get this answered?  If not I can have someone get it for
me and locate the supposed chapter.

Happy New Year and Happy New Millennium,

Allen

>>> Klaus Karttunen <Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI> 07/30 7:19 AM >>>
Dear Colleagues

In 1887 two texts of veterinary medicine, the Azvavaidyaka and the
Azvacikitsita, were published in the Bibliotheca Indica series,
Calcutta.
Is there anyone who has easy access to these volumes and could
check,
whether there is a chapter dealing with the treatment of the burns
of
horses, and send a copy of that chapter to me, if it is found (in
cannot be
long). Although the series is common and well known, these volumes
seem to
be rare. We do not have them here and during my recent visit to
Leiden I
was searching for them without success at the usually very good
library of
the Kern Institute. Thanks in advance.

Klaus

mailing address:
Dr. Klaus Karttunen
Institute of Asian and African Studies
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B)
00014 University of Helsinki
Finland


Klaus Karttunen
Institute for Asian and African Studies
Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 30 23:44:35 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 99 15:44:35 -0800
Subject: Sankara's portrait
Message-ID: <161227054752.23782.6549906007495399920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

N Ganesan writes :

>Rajasimha who built the Kailasanatha talks of his mission to bolster Shaiva
>Siddhantam. It is significant no mention of Sankara in Tamilnadu or Kerala
>for several centuries after his death. In the 1000s of inscriptions prior
>to 10th century no study of vedanta or advaita is ever mentioned!

What many people don't seem to notice is that Advaitam is quite
different from the rest of the schools of Indian philosophy -
both nAstika and Astika - in terms of teaching and following.

Buddhism and Jainism had little problem admitting people from
any walk of life into their ranks though if they were unable
to stand the rigors of the schools ascetic practices they were
either punished or expelled.

For the SAmkhya/Yoga too, the teacher need not be a brAhmana,
but only a realized soul. So I would assume that if the
candidate were worthy enough, caste would not be a bar.

NyAya/Vaiseshika with their theistic tendencies deriving their
followers from the Saiva/ShAkta/Pashupatha sects too might not
have been too caste conscious.

The bhakti schools too are a popular movement.

And the philosophy of only a few schools (ascetic Buddhism/
Jainism/Yoga) may be said to be incompatible with normal life.
So 'exclusivity' is not their creed.

But Advaitam is *the* orthodox school which derives its teaching
from the shruti or the Veda. It teaches the crown
jewel of all wisdom, traditionally considered as "secret teaching"
- taught only to the worthy few. It is not mere logic of the
NaiyAyikas or the breathing/concentration exercises of Yoga or
the asceticism of the Bauddha or JainA schools or
the metaphysical speculation of the SAmkhya or the theism of the
bhakti schools - which anybody can learn without their normal
lives being greatly affected by it. Advaita is "brahma vidhya"
or knowledge of reality backed with scriptural authority, which can have a
profound effect on the life of one who learns it and might adversely affect
those unprepared for it. As the empirical world is
dismissed as mithyam or unreal, Advaita practice becomes
incompatible with normal life and samnyAsam or renunciation
thus is a necessity.

Though all worthy dvijas seem to have been eligible for the
study of VedAnta in the ancient past, after Shankara, the circle
seems to have been increasingly restricted to brAhmanas.
Even amongst the brAhmanas only a very small percent - see
Shankara's criterion for eligibility to study VedAnta - could
aspire to learn Advaitam.

Considering this fundamental distinction, we should not be
surprised if Advaita is not as *popular* as other schools.
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From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Fri Dec 31 01:22:13 1999
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 99 17:22:13 -0800
Subject: VAIZAMBA_LYA_ and "vAn2i"
Message-ID: <161227054754.23782.1818906544765272041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
>
> Date:         Tue, 2 Nov 1999 05:12:30 PST
> Reply-To:     Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> Sender:       Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> From:         "N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: VAIZAMBA_LYA_
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> <<<
> Prof. Witzel noted that the Sarasvati River was also called vais'amba_lya_.
> Some thoughts and queries:
> 1. What are the textual references where this synonym
> is used? (I couldn't get access to Witzel 1999)
> >>>
>
> Dear Dr. Kalyanaraman,
>
> Greetings.
>
> Witzel, Substrate languages in OIA, EJVS, 1999, p. 11
> "and note that the SarasvatI still has a similar name, Vai'sambhalyA
> (with many variants, always a sign of foreign origin, in the
> Brahmana texts: TB 2.5.8.6, -bhAlyA, -pAlyA, -bAlyA Ap'SS 4.14.4,
> -bhAlyA BhAr'sikSA; cf. also RV vi'spAla?), which is to be derived
> from something like *visambAz/*visambAL, ..."
>
> We know that ta. vicumpu, pronounced as visumbu, means the "sky".
> The river could be "vicumpAL" ("sky river", spoken out as
> "visumbAL"). This gets support from the place name on the banks of
> Sarasvati river, bhavAnipura where  Sarasvati re-emerges from sand
> (B. C. Law, 1968, Mountains and Rivers of India). Note tamil "vAn2"
> is "sky". This Dr. "vAn" is in the "bhavAnipura" on the Sarasvati.
> Compare this info with the river, vAn2i ("sky  river") in Erode
> district which is referred to in Sangam texts. This "vAn2i" river in
> Tamil Nadu is sanskritized as "bhavAni", and now there is an
> irrigation dam called bhavAnisAgar.

The calssical tamil text patiRRuppattu refers to an actual river
called "vAn2i" in the Cheral empire:

"cAntu varu vAn2i nIrin2um
tIm taN cAyalan2 man2Ra tAn2E"  (pat:86:12-14)

meaning "[the Cheral king poRaiyan2] is much more pleasant than the sweet
waters of the vAn2i river which comes down carrying sandal woods".


>> Regards,
> N. Ganesan
>
>
Regards,
P.Chandrasekaran.


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From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Dec 30 22:02:17 1999
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 99 22:02:17 +0000
Subject: Millennium
Message-ID: <161227054750.23782.9427558632369694672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear indologist,

Many best wishes to you for the new millennium. I find it a humbling
thought that Sanskrit in a recognizable form was also in active use at the
last three millennial junctions (-1000, 0, +1000).

Please note that the INDOLOGY web site will be offline for a few days
from today until the morning of 4 January.  University College London is
shutting down all but the most essential services.

As far as I know, the INDOLOGY listserv service will continue through this
period.  But please do not fret if there are interruptions or delays.

Have an enjoyable day on the 1st!

All the best,
Dominik




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 31 14:44:27 1999
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 99 06:44:27 -0800
Subject: Millennium
Message-ID: <161227054761.23782.10499549043428314515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The poet UdhayaNan from Helsinki who has rendered the Finnish
epic Kalevala into Tamil has sung a nice & short poem for today.

  Happy New Millennium
  --------------------

  puttAyiram ANTukaL varuka!
  muttAn2a vAzttukkaL peRuka!
  cittikaL cErntelAm perukap
  pattAyiram varattait taruka!

Happy New Century
-----------------

putiya nURRANTE varuka!
putiya vAzttukkaL taruka!
putiya pAtaikaL teriyap
putiya varaGkaL taruka!

   Happy New Year
   --------------

  IrAyiram ANTE varuka!
  OrAyiram vAzttup peRuka!
  cIrAyiram ciRappup peruka,
  nURAyiram varaGkaL taruka!

Any Sanskrit blessing-cATu on the New Year?


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From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 31 14:51:06 1999
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 99 06:51:06 -0800
Subject: Shankara's portrait
Message-ID: <161227054762.23782.4408641239392429510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

One more point regarding Advaitam and other schools of philosophy :

Traditional Vedic renunciation is much tougher in practice than the
non-Vedic type. See Manu for rules regarding VAnaprastha and SamnyAsin
stages. The Vedic ascetics are not dependent so much on the society for
subsistence as the shrAmanas - nor do they live in the comparitive security
afforded by the non-Vedic schools (monastery etc) - though Advaitam
traditionally had supporting mathams, the traditional rules regarding
samnyAsam would not have kept the ascetic inside the matham for long.

And Advaita philosophy is not the "do good" variety as expounded by other
ethical schools. In Advaitam, moksham is cessation of karma - all activity -
good and bad. The true VedAnti according to ShankarAchArya is one who is
covered with basmam (ash), with matted hair and wanders around in seclusion,
concentrating only on brahman (supreme reality) - or rather "knowing and
being brahman - brahmavid brahmaiva bhavati" - one without a second.

So interaction with the society is that much lesser, which would be
reflected in popular accounts of grants, donations etc
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From AppuArchie at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 31 13:40:01 1999
From: AppuArchie at AOL.COM (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 99 08:40:01 -0500
Subject: Millennium
Message-ID: <161227054764.23782.7065825359150729086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

THE MILLENNIUM WISH
By AppuArchie (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam)

Twenty Centuries recognized evolution of human history
Cave man, nomads and hunters most up to 18th century.
Industrial Revolution, gave Machine and Factory Production
Auto industry to meteoric rise of the Age Information
In a matter of fifty years is remarkable and mind boggling.

World as we know was not created in two or five Ks
A better world existed long before AD, others say
Before gadgets, gizmos and agents of chaos
Outnumbered tools of trade for clean and good living
Ancient literature is proof and Tamil literature abounds.

Fear ruled through Ignorance and Superstition before
Knowledge and rational thinking have now come to the fore
Might of the gun made mites into giants, material innovation
For profit more than service with a smile only for tax evasion
Mighty empires muffled by the might of instant information.

Rapid economic progress advantage to few
Painful to others in bondage without a clue
Ancient philosophies based on fear should go
Old social institutions of caste, creed and also
Should man dominating man if for self-advance.

The Devil of the past entered through body hole
Sneezing was proof devil possessed all told
"God Bless You " anti-dote to cure the malady
Microbes the devil and modern medicine today
Seek cure for the seen devil a step up but not all.

The third Millennium has come so fast and loose
High technology unbridled we may all lose
Glitches and bugs also the devils of technology
Avarice and arrogance remnants of mythology
These will vanish with level playing fields.

To think of a "World Federation" is music to ear
Europe's fruits of freedom and the Union is here
Developing nations mired in divisions masters made
Will have to enjoy bliss of true freedom and trade
All differences for human dignity and honor first

The reality is we are into a New Leap Year
A new Century, A New Millennium you hear
Each has a wish close to the heart Oh Dear!
AppuArchie had it all, all without any fear
Only wish is to die free as a Tamil in Tamil Eelam. END

A HAPPY NEW YEAR, NEW CENTURY, AND NEW MILLENNIUM MY FRIENDS.




From garzilli at SHORE.NET  Fri Dec 31 18:30:29 1999
From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 99 13:30:29 -0500
Subject: JSAWS Vol. 5, no. 2 (Dec. 31, 1999)
Message-ID: <161227054756.23782.7602348774886939313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

We want to end this century with a new *free* issue of the *Journal of
South Asia Women Studies* Vol. 5, no. 2 (Dec. 31, 1999) on our WWW page
http://www.asiatica.org/

As our Y2k gift, *this issue* with the wonderful paper on two queens'
perfect love by Giorgio Milanetti is **free until mid-January 2000**

You will be able to read the previous JSAWS issues by becoming a member
of the journal. Life membership: US$ 50
http://www.asiatica.org/asiatica/membership.asp

                   Happy 2000 JSAWS reading!

                             * * * * *
In This Issue:

NOTE FROM THE EDITOR: A Women's New Year

PAPER: Two wives for a perfect life: Nag'mati and Padmavati in Jayasi's
PadmAvat as symbols of the integration of bhoga and yoga, by Giorgio
Milanetti

NEW TITLES: *Pandanus. Flowers, Nature, Semiotics: Kavya and Sangham*
ed. by Jaroslav Vacek and Blanka Knotkova-Capkova, Prague: Signeta,
1999. Pp. 179. ISBN 80-902608-1-0  (EG)

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
                              * * * * *

SUMMARY

Urged by the love for a damsel of perfect beauty, who dwells in a
distant island, a  Raj'put prince named Ratan'sen abandons his wife and
his unsatisfactory life, becomes an ascetic and sets off in search of
her. Nevertheless, after overcoming the afflictions of a long journey
and finally experiencing the divine joy of meeting the girl, he still
feels a sense of separation. Indeed, no part of a man's life may ever be
left out: enjoyment (bhoga) only proceeds from discipline and
austerities (yoga), but discipline is useless if it does not lead to
full participation (bhoga) in everyday life. Taking his second wife with
him, he thus comes back to his kingdom and resumes his daily duties as a
husband, as a ruler and as a warrior: war is imminent. A fascinating
description of court life and heroic deeds follows. At last, Ratan'sen
accomplishes the fate of his caste by dying in a duel; Nag'mati, his
first wife, and Padmavati, the second one, jointly enjoy a perfect union
with their husband by sacrificing their life on his funeral pyre. Soon
after that, the huge army of the Muslim emperor Alauddin will conquer
the city of Cittor.
Love and the description of love make PadmAvat, the magnificent poem of
the Indian Sufi poet Malik Muhammad "Jayasi" (1494-1542 ?), into a
quintessential, absolute work. Although it also contains events that
could be measured out on the yardstick of history, its inspiration is so
deep that even marginal episodes such as the preparations for the
emperor's banquet seem to enounce truth, line after line. The story of
the two queens is its central theme. On the one hand, they incarnate the
different ideals of austerity and daily life, and their complex
relation; on the other, they both possess a lively personality through
which Jayasi portrays two surprisingly modern Indian women who are as
independent and resolute as strong-willed.

***************************** END *******************************
Dr. Enrica Garzilli                 University of Perugia (ITALY)
Istituto di Linguistica                      Piazza Morlacchi, 11
06123 Perugia                  Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office)
Editor-in-Chief,
Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies
http://www.asiatica.org/
*****************************************************************