From cheapies at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM Thu Apr 1 07:37:01 1999 From: cheapies at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 99 01:37:01 -0600 Subject: Hyderbad and Mysore Message-ID: <161227047800.23782.10555624032127667359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Open letter, I am a graduate student of Indology in Canada and want information regarding institutes at both Hyderbad and Mysore, i.e., addresses and names of institutions, for the purposes of researching Sanskrit source materials (puranas, agamas, etc.). I understand there are excellent libraries at both cities but am without the information needed to apply to the given institutions. Any help in this direction or other relevant information would be most appreciated. Regards, Benjy Fleming From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Apr 1 08:52:21 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 99 09:52:21 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] Absence Message-ID: <161227047802.23782.11796788532659227396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I shall be "out of station" for two weeks. Back on 15 April. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, INDOLOGY list founder. From kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA Thu Apr 1 08:05:17 1999 From: kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA (Prof P Kumar) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 99 10:05:17 +0200 Subject: Hyderbad and Mysore Message-ID: <161227047878.23782.16668194887973542393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you are looking for Agamas in Mysore area there is a place called Melkote about less than an hour by bus from Mysore. They have some Agama manuscripts; there are some in the Tirupati Kendriya VidyapiTa in Tirupati, and in Madras area which is not far from Tirupati you can check with Adyar library who have published quite a few manuscripts related to Pancaratra aagamas. In Hyderabad I don't have exact name of the place, but if you go to the Philosophy department of the Osmania University, someone will direct you to the sources. One caution, most South Indian manuscripts are either in Telugu or Grantha Tamil script and not necessarily in Devanaagari script. Good luck, Pratap >Open letter, >I am a graduate student of Indology in Canada and want information regarding >institutes at both Hyderbad and Mysore, i.e., addresses and names of >institutions, for the purposes of researching Sanskrit source materials >(puranas, agamas, etc.). I understand there are excellent libraries at both >cities but am without the information needed to apply to the given >institutions. Any help in this direction or other relevant information >would be most appreciated. >Regards, >Benjy Fleming Prof. P. Kumar (Head of Dept) Department of Science of Religion University of Durban-Westivlle Private BagX54001 Durban 4000 South Africa Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work) Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work) Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Director of the 18th Quinquennial Congress of the IAHR Durban- August 5-12 2000 For more info on the Congress please see: http://www.udw.ac.za/iahr From sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Apr 1 20:06:10 1999 From: sohail at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Naseem Hines) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 99 12:06:10 -0800 Subject: Hyderbad and Mysore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047804.23782.15177043531886533623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Osmania University of Hyderabad is very good for Sanskrit Studies. Osmania University, Department of Sanskrit, Hyderabad, (A.P.) India. On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Benjamin Fleming wrote: > Open letter, > I am a graduate student of Indology in Canada and want information regarding > institutes at both Hyderbad and Mysore, i.e., addresses and names of > institutions, for the purposes of researching Sanskrit source materials > (puranas, agamas, etc.). I understand there are excellent libraries at both > cities but am without the information needed to apply to the given > institutions. Any help in this direction or other relevant information > would be most appreciated. > Regards, > Benjy Fleming > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Apr 2 01:17:58 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 99 20:17:58 -0500 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227047806.23782.13366709591446382500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 3/31/99 8:08:19 AM Central Standard Time, jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR writes: > How do you link this with Akam 181 (16-17) > which seems to mention the presence of Shiva > (of the 4 veda-s) > in a place called AlamuRRam (Banyan Yard?) > which is apparently connected with pukAr > and the Chola? > ............... > nAn2 maRai mutu nUl mukkaN+ celvan2 > AlamuRRam kavin2 peRa+ taiiya This shows another instance of dakSiNAmUrti being worshipped in CT times. As has been noted in other postings, the dakSiNAmUrti seems to have been the more popular form of ziva which had come to be worshipped in the Tamil region. Just as Madurai had an Alavay, pukAr had an AlamuRRam in CT times. (That is why the author of puR.247 is called maturaip pErAlavAyAr, where the name must refer to the dakSiNAmUrti deity. Only as the popularity of zaivism and the mythology associated with the deity at AlavAy grew, Alavay must have come to signify Madurai as a whole.) We also have AlaGkATu (banyan forest) which was praised by kAraikkAl ammaiyAr, perhaps the earliest exponent of zaiva bhakti. It will be interesting to explore the reasons for the popularity of the dakSiNAmUrti form in the Tamil region. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Apr 2 01:24:16 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 99 20:24:16 -0500 Subject: zAnta rasa Message-ID: <161227047808.23782.16842475940320641859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I would appreciate any information on how and when zAnta came to be the ninth rasa in the aesthetic tradition described in Sanskrit texts. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 2 13:15:59 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 05:15:59 -0800 Subject: Mahisha ritual among Todas? Message-ID: <161227047810.23782.16982497747311468130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A recent India Today has on its cover, A. B. Vajpayee sporting a headwear with two buffalo horns. Probably on a trip to a central Indian tribe areas. Baigas (or another tribe?) have the buffalo horns headwear decorated with sea shells. The position of buffalo horns are exactly like in the famous Indus seal of the cross-legged deity sitting amidst animals and also like the Mahisha in Maamallapuram Pallava panel where Durga is fighting Mahisha. Do the Todas, the Dravidian tribe in the Nilgiri mountains, have a headwear like this or do they have rituals where buffalo horns are worn? The Toda culture is based extensively on buffalo rearing and dairying. V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 2 13:29:34 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 05:29:34 -0800 Subject: Debate in India Message-ID: <161227047811.23782.4330836117359197580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Gentlemen, >may I suggest a more practical solution to this squabble? Agree upon >a time and a place, bring your swords and have an old-fashioned duel. >That might clear the air. Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse L. Sternbach fel. vol., Lucknow, 1979, p. 580 "Jalpa and vitaNDaa are ostensibly prescribed for jealously guarding the truth like the hedge of thorns round sprouting seeds (Nyaayasuutra 4.2.50). An early Buddhist logician also subscribes to this view (upaayahRdaya, p.4). DharmakIrti, the leading Buddhist logician, sardonically remarks, however, that, if such a device is allowed, there is no reason to disallow physical duel and use of sword (dharmakIrti, vaadanyaaya, R. Sankrityaayana, ed. (Sarnath: Mahabodhi sabha, 1936, p. 71)." V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Apr 2 14:12:13 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 09:12:13 -0500 Subject: zAnta rasa Message-ID: <161227047813.23782.17430294271246709570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One can start with the following books specifically on the subject: ACCESSION: 17504259 AUTHOR: Masson, J. Moussaieff (Jeffrey Moussaieff), 1941- TITLE: Santarasa and Abhinavagupta's philosophy of aesthetics / PLACE: Poona : PUBLISHER: Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, YEAR: 1985 1969 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: [25] p. ; 25 cm. SERIES: Bhandarkar oriental series ; no. 9 NOTES: "Reprint of 1969 edition." Includes index. Bibliography: p. [179]-188. SUBJECT: Abhinavagupta, -- Rajanaka. OTHER: Patwardhan, M. V. Next Record ACCESSION: 15018076 AUTHOR: Jhingana, Kanana. TITLE: Nirguna santakavya mem santa rasa / EDITION: 1. samskarana. PLACE: Nai Dilli : PUBLISHER: Naciketa Prakasana, YEAR: 1983 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 237 p. ; 23 cm. NOTES: In Hindi. Bibliography: p. [231]-237. Study of the elements of sublime sentiments in the medieval Hindi devotional poetry. SUBJECT: Religious poetry, Hindi -- History and criticism. Hindi poetry, Hindi -- To 1500 -- History and criticism. Hindi poetry, Hindi -- 1500-1800 -- History and criticism. Sublime, The, in literature. Next Record ACCESSION: 6864104 AUTHOR: Seetharamiah, Mysore Venkatadasappa, 1910- TITLE: Kannada sahityadalli santarasa / PLACE: Dharavada : PUBLISHER: Karnataka Visvavidyalaya, YEAR: 1979 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: ix, 98 p. ; 23 cm. SERIES: Visesopanyasa granthamale - Karnataka Visvavidyalaya ; 31 Visesopanyasa granthamale ; 31. NOTES: In Kannada. Bibliography: p. [96]-98. SUBJECT: Kannada literature -- History and criticism. Quietude in literature. Next Record ACCESSION: 3572019 AUTHOR: Bhattacharya, Shashthi Prasad. TITLE: Santa rasa and its scope in literature / PLACE: Calcutta : PUBLISHER: Sanskrit College, YEAR: 1976 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: xvii, 255 p. ; 25 cm. SERIES: Calcutta Sanskrit College research series, Studies ; no. 110. no. 73 Calcutta Sanskrit College research series ; no. 110 Calcutta Sanskrit College research series. Studies ; no. 73. NOTES: "Originally submitted as a thesis for the degree of Ph. D. of the Calcutta University." Includes index. Bibliography: p. [232]-243. SUBJECT: Sanskrit poetry -- History and criticism. Poetics. Rasas. Next Record ACCESSION: 133358 AUTHOR: Masson, J. Moussaieff (Jeffrey Moussaieff), 1941- TITLE: Santarasa and Abhinavagupta's philosophy of aesthetics, PLACE: Poona, PUBLISHER: Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, YEAR: 1969 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 2, 2, ii, 2, xvii, 206 p. 26 cm. SERIES: Bhandarkar oriental series no. 9 NOTES: English and Sanskrit. Bibliography: p. [179]-188. SUBJECT: Abhinavagupta, -- Rajanaka. OTHER: Patwardhan, M. V. joint author. And also it will be treated in these general histories of Sanskrit poetics: ACCESSION: 3568155 AUTHOR: Gerow, Edwin. TITLE: Indian poetics / PLACE: Wiesbaden : PUBLISHER: Harrassowitz, YEAR: 1977 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: p. 218-301 ; 24 cm. SERIES: A History of Indian literature ; v. 5 : Scientific and technical literature ; pt. 2, fasc. 3 NOTES: Bibliography: p. [289]-296. ISBN: 3447017228 : SUBJECT: Indic poetry -- History and criticism. Poetics. Next record ACCESSION: 126317 AUTHOR: De, Sushil Kumar. TITLE: History of Sanskrit poetics. EDITION: 2d rev. ed. PLACE: Calcutta, PUBLISHER: Firma K. L. Mukhopadhyay, YEAR: 1960 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 2 v. in 1. 22 cm. NOTES: First edition published in 1923-25 under the title: Studies in the history of Sanskrit poetics." Includes bibliographies. SUBJECT: Sanskrit poetry -- History and criticism. Sanskrit language -- Metrics and rhythmics. ALT TITLE: Studies in the history of Sanskrit poetics Next record ACCESSION: 1043332 AUTHOR: Kane, Pandurang Vaman, 1880- TITLE: History of Sanskrit poetics. EDITION: [3d. rev. ed.] PLACE: Delhi, PUBLISHER: Motilal Banarsidass YEAR: 1961 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 446 p. 23 cm. NOTES: Includes some notes and quotations in Sanskrit in Devanagari characters. "Index of authors and works on Sanskrit poetics": p. [397]-446. SUBJECT: Poetics. Sanskrit poetry -- History and criticism. Sincerely, Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From lengqie at GMX.NET Fri Apr 2 07:36:25 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 09:36:25 +0200 Subject: LaGkAvatAra sutra origin Message-ID: <161227047849.23782.13477567765892623298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I think we are getting close to the place of origin of > Lankavatara Sutra. Dear Sir Can you please make your reasoning more clear. I do not see any relation between the origin of laGkAvatAra and your citations. LaGkAvatAra certainly originated before 440 A.D. when its first translation was finished by GuNabhadra in DanYang commandery (near NanJing) after he moved there from the Jetavana monastery - QiHuanSi in capital of Liu Song dynasty into which he had been escorted from GuanZhou by imperial emissary after he came by boat from South India in 435 A.D. LiDai SanBao Ji catalogue catalogue from 597 A.D. also speak about today lost translation of laGkAvatAra by TanWuChen in BeiLiang who has been killed already in 433 A.D. So its origin can hardly have anythink to do with XuanZang or Tantra. Except that its main theme is cittamAtra and its basic standpoint is based on trisvabhAva, two nairAtmyA, pa~nca-dharma ... It is also discussing and refuting the teaching of sAMkhya from the sAMkhya -kArikA in many places ... In short its origin has to be in circumstances happening at least 3 or 4 centuries earlier than those you mention. Petr Mares, Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163, Prague 8, PSC 182 00, Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157, Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Fri Apr 2 18:34:43 1999 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 10:34:43 -0800 Subject: zAnta rasa Message-ID: <161227047817.23782.790486967580090906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For a start, you may want to look at Prof.Raghavan's work on this very issue... here's the full citation. _________ Author: Raghavan, V. (Venkatarama), 1908-1979 Title: The number of rasa-s / by V. Raghavan ; foreword by M. Hiriyanna. Publisher: Adyar : Adyar Library, 1940. Description: xxii, 192 p. ; 21 cm. Notes: Sanskrit or English. Includes index. Bibliography: p. [ix]-xxii. Language: English Subjects: Sanskrit literature--History and criticism Rasas ______________________ I don't remember all the details and conclusions, but he goes into various issues such as the lack of "s'Anta" among the early listing of rasas (like in the "s'rngAra hAsya karuNA..." s'loka from the Natya Shastra), later interpolation of s'Anta into this s'loka, and disputations about what would be an appropriate sthAyi bhAva were s'Anta to be included as a rasa. -Srini. Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > Dear List Members, > > I would appreciate any information on how and when zAnta came to be the ninth > rasa in the aesthetic tradition described in Sanskrit texts. Thanks in > advance. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Apr 2 16:14:52 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 11:14:52 -0500 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227047815.23782.8912822836425612430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 3/31/99 6:56:53 AM Central Standard Time, venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > The AlavAy myth > as the snake encircling Madurai, a fine analysis in > D. Shulman, Tamil temple myths, 1980; On the contrary, David Shulman and following him William Harman have simply missed the mark in understanding the true history of the name AlavAy. William Harman (Sacred Marriage of a Wedding Goddess, p. 39) says, "Shulman (1980, 125) theorizes that this etymology may accurately reflect the ancient origins of the association of Madurai with a serpent, and that ziva's role came later. Specifically, he presents the possibility that before ziva's explicit association with the snake of Madurai, there may have been a temple dedicated to a snake in that city. The four early temples associated with Madurai were those to the virgin (kan2n2i), viSNu (kariyamAl), kALi, and the Serpent (AlavAy). Given ziva's frequent association with serpentine symbolism, it would have been a simple matter to identify a temple dedicated to a serpent with ziva, the hypothetical latecomer of the group of four." They seem to have been unaware of the following verse from nampi's tiruviLaiyATal. pAkam aGkayal nOkkiyAr parivum aGku ayal nOkki Ar mOkam nantuRa an2pin2 nAl mun2ivar nantuRa van2pin2Al mAkam on2Riya AymaiyAl vantu ilaGkiya vAymaiyAl Akamam pakar AlavAy amutaman2 tiru AlavAy (tiruvAlavAyuTaiyAr tiruviLaiyATal purANam, tirunakarac ciRappu-11) The original temple in the Madurai area associated with a snake was a viSNu temple where AdizeSa was worshipped. That temple was different from the ziva temple. Both are mentioned in the poems of paripATal tiraTTu. Regards S. Palaniappan From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Apr 2 21:27:34 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 13:27:34 -0800 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227047834.23782.8365002018623658948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > On the contrary, David Shulman and following him William Harman have simply > missed the mark in understanding the true history of the name AlavAy. Another case of wrong translation from Tamil into Sanskrit: The word 'Aalam' meaning the banyan tree was misunderstood as hAla/hAlahAla (poison), and the story was spun for the Big Snake encircling Maturai (hAlAsya myth). SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Apr 2 22:20:33 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 14:20:33 -0800 Subject: Pots Message-ID: <161227047841.23782.14675895963223898870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Indology archives, please make use of the SEARCH facility. With the substring search, search for the words "pot", "bhrgu", etc., Search the author's name: Palaniappa. Lot of info. you can get. SM --- Christian Lee Novetzke wrote: > If anyone can help, I'm looking for information in general about the > use > and significance of pots in Hinduism, in tantra, mythology, and ritual. In > particular, I need information about pots in Maharashtra as I'm doing a > project on Namdev and Gora the Potter. I'm searching for, among other > things, discussions of the gaTasthApan ritual of Navaratra or any ritual > moments in Maharashtra involving pots. > > Thanks in advance. > > Christian Novetzke > Columbia University > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Fri Apr 2 19:22:45 1999 From: rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Robert A. Hueckstedt) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 14:22:45 -0500 Subject: Early Indian Sculpture Symposium 4/9-10 Message-ID: <161227047821.23782.1481637644970999512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Symposium on "FIGURING THE DIVINE: THE FORMATION OF THE VISUAL AND SYMBOLIC VOCABULARY OF SOUTH ASIAN ART IN THE EARLY CENTURIES OF THE COMMON ERA" April 9-10, 160 Campbell Hall, University of Virginia Organizer: Daniel Ehnbom, McIntire Department of Art, University of Virginia Friday, April 9 4:00 p.m. KEYNOTE SPEAKER Gregory Schopen, Department of East Asian Languages and Culture, University of California at Los Angeles: "From Monastery to Market Place: The Life and Work of a Buddhist Image in Kusana North India" Saturday, April 10 10:00 AM-12:00 Janice Leoshko, Department of Art History, University of Texas - Austin: "Bodies of Evidence in Early Indian Sculpture" Daniel Ehnbom, McIntire Department of Art, University of Virginia: "Symbol and Figure in the Early Jaina Art of Mathura" 12:00-2:00 PM break 2:00 PM-4:00 PM Rekha Raje Morris, Independent Scholar: "Three Kusana Period Sculptures in the Sackler Museum at Harvard University" Jason Neelis, Asian Languages and Literature, University of Washington: "Establishing the Presence of Buddhism through Images and Words: Petroglyphs and Graffiti from Northern Pakistan in Comparative Perspective." 4:00 PM RECEPTION, Bayly Art Museum Sponsored by the Center for South Asian Studies with support from the Special Lectures Committee of the Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, the Office of the Dean of the College and the Graduate School of Arts & Sciences, the Bayly Art Museum, and the McIntire Department of Art. For More information contact Daniel Ehnbom at (804) 924-6130 or . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Daniel Ehnbom ehnbom at virginia.edu McIntire Department of Art Fayerweather Hall Phone: (804) 924-6130 University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22903 USA FAX: (804) 924-3647 Director Center for South Asian Studies 110 Minor Hall University of Virginia Charlottesville VA 22903 USA Phone:(804) 924-8815 From cheapies at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM Fri Apr 2 21:04:42 1999 From: cheapies at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 15:04:42 -0600 Subject: zAnta rasa Message-ID: <161227047819.23782.13957911806752575161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Try also Gerow, Edwin. "Abhinavagupta's Aesthetics as a Speculative Paradigm." Journal of the American Oriental Society. 114.2 (1994);pp 186-208. as well as The Dhvanyaloka of Anandavardhana with the Locana of Abhinavagupta. transl. by Daniel H.H. Ingalls, J.M. Masson and M.V. Patwardhan. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press. 1990. With Regards, B. Fleming >Dear List Members, > >I would appreciate any information on how and when zAnta came to be the ninth >rasa in the aesthetic tradition described in Sanskrit texts. Thanks in >advance. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > > From cheapies at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM Fri Apr 2 21:28:56 1999 From: cheapies at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 15:28:56 -0600 Subject: hybrid physiology Message-ID: <161227047823.23782.5676122730361191145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am trying to find descriptions of animal-human hybrids (theriomorphic) in the context of Shiva's ganas or parisadas. Here obviously Ganesh comes to mind, however, I am looking for specific description of other ganas and gana-like creatures with animal heads and human bodies. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Fri Apr 2 20:38:25 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya Mishra) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 15:38:25 -0500 Subject: zAnta rasa Message-ID: <161227047825.23782.614237840144960109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > I would appreciate any information on how and when zAnta came to be the ninth > rasa in the aesthetic tradition described in Sanskrit texts. Thanks in > advance. Do you mean to say that it was not there to start with? I have always read about 9 ras of literature and 6 ras of food tastes and no less. -- I hope it gets you in the best of spirits. ?1999 Aditya Mishra homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya or http://members.rediff.com/adityanm Page me online via http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1131674 Random thought of the day: In India, "cold weather" is merely a conventional phrase and has come into use through the necessity of having some way to distinguish between weather which will melt a brass door-knob and weather which will only make it mushy.---Mark Twain From lengqie at GMX.NET Fri Apr 2 14:54:22 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 16:54:22 +0200 Subject: Lankavatara sutra Message-ID: <161227047855.23782.8791873799589333559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I think we are getting close to the place of origin of >Lankavatara Sutra. Dear Sir I really do not know what you mean Of course Nan2 would refer to the South. It has no other common meaning in Chinese. And Nan2 Tian1Zhu2 in medieval times when India was called Tian1Zhu2 certainly refered to that place - but how that relates to origin of LaGkAvatAra was my question. In any case you are citing the text that speaks about period when laGkAvatAra sUtra already existed three or four hundred years even in translations what it has to do with its origin? Petr Mares, Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163, Prague 8, PSC 182 00, Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157, Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Apr 2 22:03:04 1999 From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 17:03:04 -0500 Subject: Pots Message-ID: <161227047839.23782.5790991755392070338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If anyone can help, I'm looking for information in general about the use and significance of pots in Hinduism, in tantra, mythology, and ritual. In particular, I need information about pots in Maharashtra as I'm doing a project on Namdev and Gora the Potter. I'm searching for, among other things, discussions of the gaTasthApan ritual of Navaratra or any ritual moments in Maharashtra involving pots. Thanks in advance. Christian Novetzke Columbia University From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 3 01:03:35 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 17:03:35 -0800 Subject: Lankavatara sutra Message-ID: <161227047847.23782.3901667548073223940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Petr Mares asked: >Is there Nan2 tian1zhu2, Nan2 yin4du4 or something >else for South India? [...] >Actually, the word "Nan2" in Nan2 tian1zhu2 and >Nan2 Yin2du4 was Chinese word for "south". I think we are getting close to the place of origin of Lankavatara Sutra. The life history (Nanking woodprint, chapter 4 folio 6b line 9) of Hsuan Tsang has Dravida with the gloss 'nan-yin' (South India). Lokesh Chandra, oDDiyANa: A new interpretation, L. Sternbach felicitaion volume, part I, Lucknow, 1979 p. 491-514 p. 510 "PrAjna of Kapiza went to the country of Chen-li where he stayed for 18 years. He learnt the speech of South India where they pursue the guhya-piTaka or vidyAdhara-piTaka and practice strange rites. Thereafter he proceeded to the South where he studied the yoga tantra, maNDala and mudrA of the 'five families' in more than 3000 gAthAs. Here South India should refer to Kanchi, for in the life of Hsuan-tsang DraaviDa has the gloss nan-yin 'South India' in miniscule letters, and the capital of DraaviDa was Kancipura." ----------------- p 491 " It was from oDDiyAna that Padmasambhava went to Tibet and firmly laid the foundation of vajrayAna in the Land of Snows. Hence the present multidimensional approach to a fresh consideration of the geographic location of oDDiyAna, the heart land of vajrayAna." p.492 " When oDDiyAna was identified with UdyAna, South India had not come to occupy a place of relevance in the evolution of Buddhism, and as such how could it strike any investigator that oDDiyAna could have a South Indian derivation. It was beyond speculation that it could be a Tamil word. As it will be clear in sequence, oDDiyAna in Tamil means 'girdle' like its Sanskrit counterpart kAJci. In fact, oDDiyAna is kAJci. Kanci was one of the seven great cultural metropolis of India and the glorious capital of the Pallavas, who played a major role in the diffusion of vajrayAna to lands beyond the seas. The South Indian places of zrIparvata, dhAnyakaTaka, Potalaka and oDDiyAna were some of the foremost creative centers of mantrayAna, especially, of systems centering around Vairocana namely the 1) Avatamsaka sutras 2) caryA tantras and 3) yoga tantras - in all the three, the Cosmic Buddha was Vairocana with varying iconographic attributes. It is not surprising that the land par excellence of vajrayAna in the Tibetan tradition, should be oDDiyAna=Kanci." p. 502 "The acculturation of 'Saiva into Buddhist tradition may have taken place in South India and thence it was transmitted to Indonesia where 'Siva-Buddha syncretism was deeply entrenched." p. 510 "PrAjJa translated anew the avatamsakasUtra in 40 fasciculi. It is important to note that at the end there is a letter addressed to the Chinese emperor from the King of Wu-ch'a (UDa) in South India, who presented his own copy of the Sanskrit text to the Chinese Emperor in A.D. 795 (Nj. 89). Here Wu-ch'a (UDa) is explicitly stated to be situated in South India, and it can be none other than uDDiyAna/Kanci." p. 511 " 7. Conclusion: The evidence of different Buddhist traditions points to the origin of Paaramitaayaana and Mantrayaana in the South and its spread thence to other regions of India. The linguistic evidence of the oDDiyAna itself, the presence of South Indian vocables in dhAraNIs, the unanimous traditions about the origination of tantras in various places of Southern India, and the fact that Kanci was a cradle of Buddhism as well as a centre for the dissemination of vajrayAna to East Asia: all converge to the conclusion that oDDiyAna is Kanci." For mahayana evolution and tantrayAna origins in the Tamil country, the learned author, Lokesh Chandra's article is recommended. V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From cheapies at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM Fri Apr 2 23:03:53 1999 From: cheapies at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 17:03:53 -0600 Subject: zAnta rasa Message-ID: <161227047828.23782.10503812198813893412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Look to Anandavardhana's "Dhvanyaloka"- here the system of rasa is based on eight standard rasas coming from the ancient text Bharatiyanatyasastra (date??). From the Dhavanyaloca, which did not focus on rasa per se (it was concerned with dhvani or suggestion), Abhinavagupta developed the addition of a ninth, santarasa, which allowed aesthetics to be linked to the highest religious experience. Such a link was not evident in Anandavardhana's work. b. Fleming >Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >> >> I would appreciate any information on how and when zAnta came to be the ninth >> rasa in the aesthetic tradition described in Sanskrit texts. Thanks in >> advance. > >Do you mean to say that it was not there to start with? >I have always read about 9 ras of literature and 6 ras of food tastes >and no less. > > >-- > >I hope it gets you in the best of spirits. >?1999 Aditya Mishra > homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya > or http://members.rediff.com/adityanm >Page me online via http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1131674 > >Random thought of the day: > In India, "cold weather" is merely a conventional phrase and has come >into use through the necessity of having some way to distinguish between >weather which will melt a brass door-knob and weather which will only >make it mushy.---Mark Twain > > From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Apr 2 22:36:41 1999 From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 17:36:41 -0500 Subject: Pots In-Reply-To: <19990402222033.25115.rocketmail@web303.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227047843.23782.14477699956527615972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the suggestion. I had done this (and reread my own posting of several months back about Namdev and Gora) but what I really need is some article or another. I need such a source because I am presenting a paper soon and, before I do so, I need to offer my listeners (not India specialists) some discussion of the significance of pots in Hinduism for them to read before hand. I'll go through the archives again in case I've missed anything. Thanks. Christian On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > In the Indology archives, please make use of the SEARCH facility. > With the substring search, search for the words "pot", "bhrgu", etc., > Search the author's name: Palaniappa. Lot of info. you can get. > > SM > > --- Christian Lee Novetzke wrote: > > If anyone can help, I'm looking for information in general about the > > use > > and significance of pots in Hinduism, in tantra, mythology, and ritual. In > > particular, I need information about pots in Maharashtra as I'm doing a > > project on Namdev and Gora the Potter. I'm searching for, among other > > things, discussions of the gaTasthApan ritual of Navaratra or any ritual > > moments in Maharashtra involving pots. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Christian Novetzke > > Columbia University > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > Christian Lee Novetzke From lengqie at GMX.NET Fri Apr 2 15:37:40 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 17:37:40 +0200 Subject: Lankavatara sutra Message-ID: <161227047863.23782.11583286740733293960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Is there Nan2 tian1zhu2, Nan2 yin4du4 or something > >else for South India? > When asked whether Nan2 tian1zhu2 refers to South India, > the answer was provided as below: Sir I did not ask whether Nan2 Tian1Zhu2 refers to South India (it clearly does), I asked whether ZhiSheng's text (whom Mr. Iyanaga translated) used Nan2 Tian1Zhu2 for what Mr. Iyanaga translated as South India - since there are many other words that can refer to South India (not just Nan2 Tian1Zhu2). Petr Mares From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Apr 2 23:34:17 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 18:34:17 -0500 Subject: Pots Message-ID: <161227047845.23782.13445983432879511207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 4/2/99 4:03:48 PM Central Standard Time, cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU writes: > I'm looking for information in general about the use > and significance of pots in Hinduism, in tantra, mythology, and ritual. In explaining the term kulAlikAmnAya for one of the Tantric traditions, J. A. Schoterman (The SaTsAhasra saMhitA, 1982, p.8) says, "The pot manufactured by the potter is an important daily utensil, but next to this the pot is often regarded as devI Herself or Her local manifestation. In many Indian villages devI is simply represented with an earthen pot (cf. Whitehead 1921: 37ff.; Index s.v.). In view of the foregoing it is understandable that the potter may have gained an important position in a Tantric context. In Tantric ritual the pot is often a central feature as a representation of the womb and by that of the Mother (cf. Przyluski 1950: 122; Neumann 1963: 132; 162). During Tantric rituals and ceremonies devI is born again in the pot for the duration of the ritual. For this reason the pot is filled with liquor or water (cf. 3, 21-23 Notes; devI upaniSad 3: mama yonir apsv anta samudre), and to symbolize the union of devI with Her male consort a white thread (=sukra, 'semen virile') is knotted around it (cf. 3, 22d)." For a supporter of Tantric concepts the potter himself is closely related to four out of the five elements which constitute human life (mahAbhUtas): earth (pRthivI), water (Apas), fire (tejas) and wind (vAyu)." Regards S. Palaniappan From garzilli at SHORE.NET Fri Apr 2 17:26:44 1999 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 22:56:44 +0530 Subject: IJTS vol. 3, no. 1 Message-ID: <161227047831.23782.1328442370676429619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, You can read the latest issue of the *International Journal of Tantric Studies* on our page: http://www.asiatica.org Bagchee Associates, a leading Indological book dealer supports this publication. Read its revised & updated web site with an exhaustive catalog for searching & shopping online Indian publications: http://www.bagchee.com You will be able to read the IJTS by becoming a member of the journal (Life membership: US$ 35). On http://www.asiatica.org IN THIS ISSUE: INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF TANTRIC STUDIES Vol. 3 (1998), No. 1, August 23, 1998 ISSN 1084-7553 (c) Copyright IJTS 1995-99. 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(P.M.) * Aforismi dello Yoga (YogasUtra)*, by PATAJjALI, transl. by PAOLO MAGNONE, Torino: Promolibri, 1991. Pp. 183. Price: Lit 24,000. (E.G.) *Brahmins of Nepal *, by PRAKASH RAJ, Kathmandu: Nabeen Publications, 1996. Pp. 47. Price: Nep. Rs 100, Ind. Rs. 70. (E.G.) * Mongolian Portrait - Land of Big Skies*, a photographic essay by ANDREW PAX, Plymouth, Vermont: Five Corners Publications, Ldt., 1996. ISBN: 1-886699-03-8. Pp. 60. (E.G.) - NEWS: * A French-Sanskrit Dictionary * by Andre Signoret * Watch the AOS!, * by Enrica Garzilli - COPYRIGHT NOTICE *********************************END********************************* Happy reading! -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 3 14:34:46 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 99 06:34:46 -0800 Subject: Lankavatara sutra Message-ID: <161227047851.23782.12987798468131592830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is there Nan2 tian1zhu2, Nan2 yin4du4 or something >else for South India? [...] >Actually, the word "Nan2" in Nan2 tian1zhu2 and >Nan2 Yin2du4 was Chinese word for "south". Nan2 in the above terms refers to the Dravida Country in South India, acc. to Xuan Zang biographer. Ref. given below. V. Iyer ---------------- I think we are getting close to the place of origin of Lankavatara Sutra. The life history (Nanking woodprint, chapter 4 folio 6b line 9) of Hsuan Tsang has Dravida with the gloss 'nan-yin' (South India). Lokesh Chandra, oDDiyANa: A new interpretation, L. Sternbach felicitaion volume, part I, Lucknow, 1979 p. 491-514 p. 510 "PrAjna of Kapiza went to the country of Chen-li where he stayed for 18 years. He learnt the speech of South India where they pursue the guhya-piTaka or vidyAdhara-piTaka and practice strange rites. Thereafter he proceeded to the South where he studied the yoga tantra, maNDala and mudrA of the 'five families' in more than 3000 gAthAs. Here South India should refer to Kanchi, for in the life of Hsuan-tsang DraaviDa has the gloss nan-yin 'South India' in miniscule letters, and the capital of DraaviDa was Kancipura." ----------------- Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 3 15:10:19 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 99 07:10:19 -0800 Subject: Lankavatara sutra Message-ID: <161227047860.23782.16956706173328042195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is there Nan2 tian1zhu2, Nan2 yin4du4 or something >else for South India? [...] >Actually, the word "Nan2" in Nan2 tian1zhu2 and >Nan2 Yin2du4 was Chinese word for "south". When asked whether Nan2 tian1zhu2 refers to South India, the answer was provided as below: "" Nan2 in the above terms refers to the Dravida Country in South India, acc. to Xuan Zang biographer. Ref. Lokesh Chandra's article. "" Whether Nan2 tian1zhu2 or Nan2 Yin2du4 occur in Lankavatara, only L. scholars can tell that. I don't know. V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sat Apr 3 14:53:28 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 99 08:53:28 -0600 Subject: hybrid physiology Message-ID: <161227047853.23782.9049335487528176371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For starters, here's a verse from the Great Epic, and an article by Dhaky: MahAbhArata: 9.44.84 [crit ed.] Gajendra-carma-vasanAs-tatha kRSNAcinA-mbarAH / SkandamukhA MahA-rA-ja tathA- hyadaratomukhAH // "Some were clad in skins of large elephants, and some in black deer skins. The mouths of some were on their shoulders. Some had mouths on their stomachs, some on their backs, some on their cheeks some on their calves, and some on their flanks (?) and the mouths of many were placed on other parts of their bodies," [Roy vol. 7 p. 136] DHAKY, M.A. "BhUtas and BhUtanAyakas Elementals and Their Captains," Michael W, Meister, ed. Discourses on Siva. (Philadelphia: Univ. of Pennsylvania Press, l985), pp. 240-256. Hope this helps, and that you'll reciprocate with any other textual citations, Michael Rabe SAIC/SXU/Chicago >>From: Benjamin Fleming >I am trying to find descriptions of animal-human hybrids (theriomorphic) in >the context of Shiva's ganas or parisadas. Here obviously Ganesh comes to >mind, however, I am looking for specific description of other ganas and >gana-like creatures with animal heads and human bodies. From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sat Apr 3 15:15:13 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 99 09:15:13 -0600 Subject: hybrid physiology Message-ID: <161227047858.23782.4434458779051569298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oh yes. See also [though I haven't]: Doris Srinivasan's _Many Heads, Arms and Eyes: Origins, Meaning and Form of Multiplicity in Indian Art_ (Studies in Asian Art and Archaeology, vol. xx (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1997), 355p. Just reviewed by Carol Radcliffe Bolon in _The Journal of Asian Studies_ 58:1 (Feb. '99): 250-251 >>>From: Benjamin Fleming >>I am trying to find descriptions of animal-human hybrids ... From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sat Apr 3 16:29:37 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 99 10:29:37 -0600 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227047865.23782.2051567240512074865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:54:43 EST, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan writes: >Kalidasa in his Raghuvamsa calls the capital of the Pandya kings of Tamil >region as "uraga". Kalidasa's use of this name for Madurai is very >significant. The name uraga is based on the name Alavay found to be attested >for the first time in the post-Classical Tamil text, tEvAram, of 7th century... This may very well be a correct inference, but it is at odds with the views of E. Hultzsch [_Gadval Plates of Vikramaditya, c. A.D. 674_, EI X (1909-10): 102], who cites Venkayya's equation of Kalidasa's Uragapura with Uraiyur, an ancient capital of the Cholas near Tiruchi and his own preference for matching it with the coastal Buddhist enclave, Nagapattanam [i.e., Ptolmey's Nikama]. In other words, I think it's an unwarranted stretch to say that because Kalidas identifies his Uraga with the Pandyas that he must necessarily have had Madurai in mind. Perhaps his knowledge of Southern geography wasn't so precise after all! Precluding the identification with Madurai is this passage from the cited plates: _This VikramAditya....having entered the Cholika province was encamped in Uragapura which is situated on the southern bank of the Kaveri..._ [ibid., p. 105, ll. 22, 23] Wasting time, [that should be spent grading], Michael Rabe SAIC/SXU/Chicago From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 3 20:41:22 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 99 12:41:22 -0800 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047870.23782.10381063674030527017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Buddha's life stories, the taming of the Nalagiri/NaLagiri, the ferocious elephant, is prominent. Depicted in Ajanta murals as well as in a medallion from Amaravati. After the death of King Bimbisara, Devadatta forces elephant-keepers to set the full grown male elephant, Nalagiri upon the venerable Gotama when he is on His routine alms-round. Nalagiri was tamed when it approached the Blessed One, bowed down and listened to His words of advice. Could the name, Nalagiri/NaLagiri mean 'black mountain'? Tamil texts portray elephants as 'black mountains'.In Sanskrit as well. Near Madurai, a hillock is Anaimalai (elephant mountain) and in Coimbatore district, there is Anaimalai range. In Andhra, a mountain range is Nalla-malai, "black mountain". Krishnaveni (from kaNNapeNNA of Jatakas) flows from Nallamalai 'black mountain'. Kamban sings of a 'kariya peNNai' (=krishna peNNA, Is it waynganga falling into Godavari?) M. B. Emeneau has an article on the name Nala in Mahabharata. He derives it as Dravidian meaning "good". But, may be Nala of Mbh. may signify his black color.Is Nala of MBh. dark in color? Alternately, his name may be due to his bout with zani bhagavAn. In all tamil Mbh., Nala is NaLan only, his story is told in the beautiful naLaveNpA of pukazEnti. (Tiru)naLLaaRu is the famous zani temple near Kaaraikkaal. (naLLaaRu = black river?) Nala/NaLa of Mbh. has gotten rid of his zani there, according to lagends. Black clothes and sesame oil (*nal* eNNai) are offered at naLLaaRu. In Tamil, naLLiruL means 'dark black, central darkness". DEDR 3621 'naL' means darkness. Like Telugu, Tamil also has merged L into l in some words to mean black. Eg., 1) nallavELai = black vailay, a sticky plant of sandy places 2) nalla kAkkai = common crow 3) nalla miLaku = black pepper 4) nallam = charcoal, black color 5) nallERu = Bull buffalo 6) nal-eNNai = sesame oil (Is it because sesame is black? nal = black) 7) nalla pAmpu = cobra (Is this the Sanskrit kRSNa-sarpa?). Can we say Nalagiri/NaLagiri has a Dravidian word naL-/nal- meaning 'black/dark'? Regards, N. Ganesan Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Sat Apr 3 21:05:28 1999 From: klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Bo Klintberg) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 99 16:05:28 -0500 Subject: INSA email address? Message-ID: <161227047872.23782.367322913816007783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the email address to Indian National Science Academy? I need to try to find some of their old publications... If anyone hasd any other ideas of how to find old, second-hand Indian science books, preferably using the web, please let me know. Thanks, Bo Klintberg Institute for the History and Philosophy of Science and Technology University of Toronto From nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM Sun Apr 4 08:01:36 1999 From: nbedworth at HAWAII.RR.COM (Nicholas Bedworth) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 99 22:01:36 -1000 Subject: Vastu/Sthapatya Ved newsgroup/mailing list Message-ID: <161227047874.23782.11742119944558849850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know of any sthapatya ved mailing lists or newsgroups? Happy Easter! Nicholas Bedworth From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Apr 3 22:10:14 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 99 22:10:14 +0000 Subject: Pots and ancient parole Message-ID: <161227047868.23782.108257114024340037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > In explaining the term kulAlikAmnAya for one of the Tantric traditions, J. A.> Schoterman (The SaTsAhasra saMhitA, 1982, p.8) says, "The pot manufactured> by the potter is an important daily utensil, but next to this the pot is> often regarded as devI Herself or Her local manifestation... Where does the kXl come from? kulame = firepit (Ka.); kole.l = smithy (Kota); holu = fireplace (Kuwi); ole = hearth (Kod.agu) How does an ancient smith represent a razor he has produced for trade? qole = razor (Maltese); hola'd (Santali) There are similar sounding words in his parole, which can be depicted pictorially. qoli = tail (Maltese) ko_r.a = a shoot, first sprout (Kui); ko_le = a stump or stump of corn (Te.) See the inscribed Ravi phase (3300 BC) sherd at slide 121: http://www.harappa.com/indus2/ "The origins of Indus writing can now be traced to the Ravi Phase (c.3300-2800 BC) at Harappa. Some inscriptions were made on the bottom of the pottery before firing. Other inscriptions such as this one were made after firing. This inscription (c. 3300 BC) appears to be three plant symbols arranged to appear almost anthropomorphic. The trident looking projections on these symbols seem to set the foundation for later symbols such as those seen in 131." (Kenoyer and Meadow, Feb. 99) When a tail of an antelope is shown on many inscriptions, it is orthographically altered to depict a sprout, apparently to emphasise that what is being shown in the bill of lading is a razor. More decipherments based on rebus method are attempted at: http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/decipherment1.pdf Comments are welcome. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 5 17:11:28 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 99 10:11:28 -0700 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227047882.23782.2280442218011697857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Kalidasa in his Raghuvamsa calls the capital of the Pandya kings of >>Tamil region as "uraga". Kalidasa's use of this name for Madurai is >>very significant. The name uraga is based on the name Alavay found >>to be attested for the first time in the post-Classical Tamil text, >>tEvAram, of 7th century... >This may very well be a correct inference, but it is at odds with >the views of E. Hultzsch [_Gadval Plates of Vikramaditya, c. >A.D. 674_, EI X (1909-10): 102], who cites Venkayya's equation of >Kalidasa's Uragapura with Uraiyur, an ancient capital of the Cholas >near Tiruchi .. It looks V. Venkayya, from Andhra, mixes "uragapura" with "uRaiyUr", a part of Tiruchy in the Chola heartland. Pl. note uRaiyUr has no connection with Pandyas that early. On the contrary, S. Krishnaswami Aiyangar, Some contributions of South India to Indian culture, 1924, University of Calcutta correctly identifies uragapura woth Madurai. In p. 338, "Then comes Kumari with a cape and harbor. It is also referred to as a holy bathing place, and the coast region is then described as extending eastwards till it reaches Korkai where pearl fisheries are and the Periplus offers the interesting piece of information that they are worked by condemned criminals. Then follows another coast region with a region inland called according to the Periplus, Argaru, [1] taken to be the equivalent of Uraiyur. These two regions of the coast country are somewhat differently named in Ptolemy. He calls the region between Nirkunram and Camorin as in the country of Aioi (Tamil Aay). [...] [1] Is this (Periplus' Argaru) not more correctly Uragapura (Halasya or Madura), the capital of Pandyas? UraiyUr, the Chola capital and the country dependent thereon must have begun far north of this region - somewhere about ToNDi in the Ramnad district now." S. Krishnaswami Aiyangar in 1920s has written that uragapura's identification with Madurai is correct. He further hints that uragapura-hAlAsya name was first attested in the Periplus, even prior to Kalidasa! Is there a discussion on Argaru in Lionel Casson, The Periplus Maris Erythraei, 1989, Princeton or uragapura in Ptolemy, The Geography, Dover? Sincerely, V. Iyer Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Apr 5 23:32:16 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 99 23:32:16 +0000 Subject: Date of the Rigveda and Urheimat Message-ID: <161227047880.23782.11331450912896269241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, The following 3 recent links may be of interest: 1.Astronomical data and the Aryan question (http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/aryan/koenraad1.html) 2.Linguistic Aspects of the Indo-European Urheimat Question (http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/aryan/koenraad3.html) 3."The Vedic corpus provides no evidence for the so-called Aryan invasion of India" (http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/aryan/koenraad3.html) Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 6 12:05:45 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 05:05:45 -0700 Subject: Origns of Writing symposium Message-ID: <161227047886.23782.17727177092532157075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If writing began in IVC around 3300 B.C. and considering the strong Indian opinion that Sarasvati civilization is basically Sanskritic, is the 3300 B.C. writing in Sanskrit? Sincerely, N. Ganesan Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Tue Apr 6 11:46:35 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 05:46:35 -0600 Subject: Origns of Writing symposium Message-ID: <161227047884.23782.3566300485528822248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [excerpts from an illustrated article w/ 1 _ekazringa-bull seal from Harappa] Who Began Writing? Many Theories, Few Answers By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD (April 6) A disagreement has erupted between certain scholars, who believe the origins of writing lie in Mesopotamia, and some archeologists, who say writing first appeared in Egypt. ************* [http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/040699sci-early-writing.html] PHILADELPHIA -- ...at a recent symposium on the origins or writing, held here at the University of Pennsylvania... ...the writing idea became more widespread at the beginning of the third millennium B.C. The Elamites of southern Iran developed a proto-writing system then, perhaps influenced by the proto-cuneiform of their Sumerian neighbors, and before the millennium was out, writing appeared in the Indus River Valley of what is now Pakistan and western India, then in Syria and Crete and parts of Turkey. Writing in China dates back to the Shang period toward the end of the second millennium B.C., and it dates to the first millennium B.C. in Mesoamerica. Archeologists have thought that the undeciphered Indus script, which seemed to appear first around 2500, may have been inspired in part from trade contacts with Mesopotamia. But new excavations in the ruins of the ancient city of Harappa suggest an earlier and presumably independent origin of Indus writing. In a report from the field, distributed on the Internet, Dr. Jonathan Mark Kenoyer of the University of Wisconsin and Dr. Richard H. Meadow of Harvard University showed pictures of marks incised on potshards that they interpreted as evidence for the use of writing signs by Indus people as early as 3300 B.C. If these are indeed proto-writing examples, the discovery indicates an independent origin of Indus writing contemporary with the Sumerian and Egyptian inventions. Dr. Meadow, using E-mail, the electronic age's version of the king of Uruk's clay tablet, confirmed that the inscribed marks were "similar in some respects to those later used in the Indus script." The current excavations, he added, were uncovering "very significant findings at Harappa with respect to the Indus script." At the symposium, though, Dr. Gregory L. Possehl, a Pennsylvania archeologist who specializes in the Indus civilization and had examined the pictures, cautioned against jumping to such conclusions. One had to be careful, he said, not to confuse potter's marks, graffiti and fingernail marks with symbols of nascent writing. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 6 18:31:31 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 11:31:31 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047888.23782.11378611825237704309.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One of the more extensive versions of bRhatkathA is in Tamil. KoGkuvELir rendered it in Tamil. 800 AD? Tamil peruGkatai has an elephant named naLakiri. It has a description "kAriruG kun2RiR kavin2 peRat tOn2Ra" (PG.1.44.84). Here, the elephant naLakiri(=naLagiri) is compared to a "big, black hill". kAr = black (karu-), irum = big, kun2Ru = hill. >?From Abithana Chintamani, Ency. of Tamil lit., AES, Delhi, 1991 (Reprint): Draupadi, black in complexion, was in an earlier birth called nalaayiNi, the daughter of naLa or naLaayaNa and the wife of maudgalya RSi. NalaayiNi (later born ad draupadii) myth is permeated with 'darkness, black'. When faced with a curse from MaaNDavya RSi that in the morning she is to lose her leper husband, she makes the sun never rise again and the dark night engulfs the world all the time. Then, ay be, the name nala, nalAyiNI in MBh. are coined from the Dravidian root word, naL-, nal- meaning black. Regards, N. Ganesan PS: Is the sangam Tamil word, 'al' meaning night coming from 'nal' (=darkness)? Eg., caMaNar -> amaNar, nIr -> Iram, .. The word 'nerunal' as in 'nerunal uLan2 oruvan2 in2Rillai en2n2um perumai uTaittu iv ulaku'(kuRaL) contains 'nal'. Does this 'nal' in nerunal mean night? What about the sangam work title, neTunal vATai? Does 'neDu nal' mean 'long night' here? Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Apr 6 19:34:55 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 12:34:55 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047890.23782.13187297501790763061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This Dravidian naLa/nala meaning both 'good' and 'black' is interesting. In sangam texts, the brown color (mAmai) is celebrated, opposite of todays' Indian movies where Dalits appear in white colors! The IE notion of good=white/light and evil=black is at odds with the Dravidian nal/naL = good and black. SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Apr 6 19:03:29 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 23:03:29 +0400 Subject: Origns of Writing symposium Message-ID: <161227047893.23782.4414004952015172570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ganesan, don't you think that your remark may provoke one more fruitless irrational discussion? And after all, they are just single signs, most probably owner's marks, or potter's marks. Who can say anything about their language? All the best, Yaroslav Vassilkov From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Apr 7 02:08:04 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 99 02:08:04 +0000 Subject: Origns of Writing symposium Message-ID: <161227047895.23782.5438096767191347037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Yaroslav V. Vassilkov" wrote: > > And after all, they are just single signs, most probably owner's> marks, or potter's marks. Who can say anything about their language? Even talking about the structure of the script itself, Dr. Vassilkov's comment seems to be on the mark. There are slides put up by Profs. Kenoyer and Meadow of these scratchings. Yes, indeed, it will be an article of faith to conclude that these marks 'led' to the writing system which is very complex, yet well structured, involving over 100 very emphatic, pictorial motifs and about 400 'signs' which are orthographically unique (even excluding ligatures). Almost any sign can be derived from these potter's marks, even if they were inscribed before firing the pots. Of course, Paropola's pictorial corpus (2 vols.) does include scores of objects with such marks. Regards, Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT Wed Apr 7 06:57:07 1999 From: pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT (Alberto Pelissero) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 99 08:57:07 +0200 Subject: INSA email address? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047897.23782.13269749648760221955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Alberto Pelissero via Belvedere 51 10028 Trofarello (TO) I T A L Y tel. +39-11-649.03.03 (home) tel. +39-11-670.3757 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) fax +39-11-670.3604 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Bo Klintberg wrote: > Does anyone have the email address to Indian National Science Academy? I > need to try to find some of their old publications... > > Thanks, > > Bo Klintberg > Institute for the History and Philosophy of Science and Technology > University of Toronto > You can maybe try at: insa at giasd101.vsnl.net.in From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 7 16:30:22 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 99 09:30:22 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047903.23782.13910211105197049908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I would suggest that nala is Middle Indian from Sanskrit nada > "roaring". For taking nalagiri as coming from nadagiri 'roaring mountain' instead of 'black mountain', grateful thanks for guidance: a) does 'nala' occur in the sense of 'roaring' in MIA? b) does nadagiri or nAdagiri type usages for elephants occur Sanskrit literature? 'naLagiri' elephant is compared to 'big, black mountain' in the Tamil version of bEhatkathA. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Wed Apr 7 13:43:12 1999 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 99 09:43:12 -0400 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047901.23782.1154426280978666925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rolf Koch wrote: *I would suggest that nala is Middle Indian from Sanskrit nada "boaring" Turner's CDIAL 6936 for 'naDa' suggests :'possibly through contact with Dravidian Kannada naLLu 'reed' , Tamil nel 'hollow' and cites Thomas Burrow. There are many words in Tamil like noLLai, nALam etc. which will show that the a hollow or tubular structure is the root sense . In tamil such a structure is called 'uTTuLai'. I don't have DED handy but I'm sure there should be connections there. What Madhuresan says is different. Regards /C.R.(Selva) Selvakumar * *Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: * *> This Dravidian naLa/nala meaning both 'good' and 'black' is *> interesting. In sangam texts, the brown color (mAmai) is celebrated, *> opposite of todays' Indian movies where Dalits appear in white *> colors! The IE notion of good=white/light and evil=black is at *> odds with the Dravidian nal/naL = good and black. *> *> SM From roheko at MERKUR.NET Wed Apr 7 11:49:50 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 99 13:49:50 +0200 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047900.23782.13371358165962107475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would suggest that nala is Middle Indian from Sanskrit nada "boaring" Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > This Dravidian naLa/nala meaning both 'good' and 'black' is > interesting. In sangam texts, the brown color (mAmai) is celebrated, > opposite of todays' Indian movies where Dalits appear in white > colors! The IE notion of good=white/light and evil=black is at > odds with the Dravidian nal/naL = good and black. > > SM > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Wed Apr 7 19:15:40 1999 From: klintber at CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Bo Klintberg) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 99 15:15:40 -0400 Subject: INSA email address? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047905.23782.12020885834993489493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Deart Alberto, I'll try this. Thanks! Bo Klintberg --------------------- On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Alberto Pelissero wrote: > Alberto Pelissero > via Belvedere 51 > 10028 Trofarello (TO) > I T A L Y > tel. +39-11-649.03.03 (home) > tel. +39-11-670.3757 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) > fax +39-11-670.3604 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) > > > On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Bo Klintberg wrote: > > > Does anyone have the email address to Indian National Science Academy? I > > need to try to find some of their old publications... > > > > Thanks, > > > > Bo Klintberg > > Institute for the History and Philosophy of Science and Technology > > University of Toronto > > > You can maybe try at: insa at giasd101.vsnl.net.in > From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Apr 8 14:02:23 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 99 07:02:23 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047907.23782.9033335531380360624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Turner's CDIAL 6936 for 'naDa' suggests :'possibly through contact with >Dravidian Kannada naLLu 'reed' , Tamil nel 'hollow' and cites >Thomas Burrow. >There are many words in Tamil like noLLai, nALam etc. which will >show that the a hollow or tubular structure is the root sense. There are two meanings for 'naL-' present always in Tamil literature, naL- = black as well as center. By the L -> D change, observe 'naDu' = center or middle. We call the 12 noon as 'naL pakal' (naNpakal with sandhi) or 'naDu pakal'. Any reed with hollow hole through the "middle"(naL) axis is called Ka. naLLu or Ta. naLam, nALam, coined from naL = middle. Sanskrit 'naDa/naLa' representing 'reed' may stem from Ta. naDu/naL- 'center'. To me, MBh. Nala/NaLa and NaLagiri/Nalagiri in Jataka myths appears to represent 'black' in contrast to 'good'(Emeneau), 'reed', 'roaring'. SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 8 21:52:17 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 99 14:52:17 -0700 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227047911.23782.869980702065025565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have any information on the debate which was supposed to have been waged between the guru of VAsubandhu and Ishvara KrishnA, the author of the SAmkhya KArikAs. It's also said that it was Ishvara Krishna who triumphed. And how valid is the identification of Ishvara Krishna with the great SamskrutaM poet KAlidhAsa? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Apr 8 21:59:17 1999 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 99 17:59:17 -0400 Subject: Pots Message-ID: <161227047913.23782.13161814304729241188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Christian Novetske was asking about the religious significance of pots. There is a good amount, and a lot about the social life of potters, in: 79-901463 Saraswati, Baidyanath. Pottery-making cultures and Indian civilization / Baidyanath Saraswati. 1st ed. New Delhi : Abhinav Publications, 1978. xii, 150 p., {14} leaves of plates : ill., maps ; 29 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: GN635.I4 S27 1978 SUBJECTS: Potters--India. Pottery--India. India--Social life and customs. NOTES: A revision of the author's thesis, Ranchi University, 1967, under the title: The peasant potters of north India. Includes index. Bibliography: p. {145}-146. Rs110.00 ($24.00 U.S.) DEWEY DEC.: 303.5/6 19 Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress LJ-150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Apr 8 21:19:48 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 99 21:19:48 +0000 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047909.23782.15177660827968399536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > To me, MBh. Nala/NaLa and NaLagiri/Nalagiri in Jataka myths appears > to represent 'black' in contrast to 'good'(Emeneau), 'reed', 'roaring'. The semant. 'black' is also reinforced by the following: narka_ = night (Gadba); narka (Gondi); nalla = black, charcoal (Te.); nendu nal = midnight (Parji); na_r.a = night (Kond.a); nan = night (Brahui) So, nal.a (Skt.) is just jet black? Would appreciate guidance on any IE cognates. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From garzilli at SHORE.NET Thu Apr 8 20:41:02 1999 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 02:11:02 +0530 Subject: Announcement: Nakamura index Message-ID: <161227047925.23782.1713139029080717216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: "Charles Muller" ******************************************************************* Dear Colleague: I am pleased to announce the release of the recently completed digital index of the Bukkyogo daijiten (by Nakamura Hajime). The file can be downloaded in ZIP format from the category "Muller's Electronic CJK Texts" at . Due to mapping errors in the JIS-to-Big5 conversion tables which can cause some problems for those using the data in a Chinese environment, I have made two versions of the file: one Japanese-oriented and one Chinese-oriented. I am sorry that I am not familiar enough with JIS-KSC mapping errors to have made a third file for Korean platform usage. Please be sure to take a look at the README file for accreditation, caveats, encoding issues, etc. May the load of your work be lightened! (Or be made heavier, whichever you like). Regards, Charles Muller Toyo Gakuen University ***************************************************************** Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies htpp://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 9 12:08:03 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 05:08:03 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047923.23782.6130966610494619207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can an Indologist please explain me the connection between 'reed' and 'elephant'?; (also, possibly NaLa in Mahabharata and 'reed')? Thanks, N. Ganesan >------------------------------------------------------------------ > >When requested personally, an Indologist gave me a reply. >My heartfelt thanks. - N. Ganesan > >[Begin quote] > Nalagiri as 'black mountain' would indeed be a good name for an >elephant, because the concepts of mountain, rain-cloud and elephant >are more or less interchangeable in Indian mythology. > > As far as Nala is concerned: Though I cannot find the Nala of the >Mahabharata being described as black, I find the idea tempting. >Because after having been bitten by the snake demon Karkotaka in the >forest, Nala changes completely his appearance and might very well >have assumed a black colour due to the poison. One might compare the >blackness of Shiva's throat, which is also regarded as the effect of >poison. Nala becomes a perfect charioteer, like Krishna ('the Black >one'!), .............[cut] > On the other hand, a king naDa naiSidha is already mentioned in >the zatapathabrAhmaNa, and the Sanskrit word naDa means 'reed' and >must be connected with the Rgvedic word nada, 'reed', which has >Iranian and other Indoeuropean connections. The whole question is >extremely complicated, [...] >[End quote] > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Apr 9 13:52:03 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 06:52:03 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047932.23782.13631157385592591351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Roland Steiner wrote: > Linguistically, Middle Indo-Aryan nala (or na.la, still more precise) > cannot be derived from Skt. nada ("boaring"), but only from Skt. > na.da (or nala) "reed". If 'nadagiri' is the name, in Tamil PeruGkatai, 'natakiri' would come. Instead, only naLakiri (naLagiri) is in Tamil version of bRhatkathA and it is compared to black mountain. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Apr 9 14:58:54 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 07:58:54 -0700 Subject: bhUtirAja Message-ID: <161227047939.23782.11163158632888435217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend had this question: is there a clan, family, chiefs with the title 'bhUti'? Especially, from 9th to 12th centuries, does Sanskrit works and/or temple inscriptions? Which regions have the chiefs/kings called bhUtirAjas? Any pointers welcome, SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Apr 9 12:51:51 1999 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 08:51:51 -0400 Subject: event announcement via SARAI Message-ID: <161227047927.23782.17239407944613415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI. Please contact event organizers directly for any further information. David Magier http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ------------------------------------------------------------------ CENTER FOR SOUTH ASIAN STUDIES Sixteenth Annual Spring Symposium AESTHETICS, POLITICS, AND SOCIETY IN CONTEMPORARY SOUTH ASIA School for Hawaiian, Asian and Pacific Studies University of Hawai'i at Manoa April 15 - 17, 1999 All events will be held at: Center for Korean Studies 1881 East-West Road University of Hawai'i at Manoa THURSDAY, APRIL 15, 1999 8:45 - 9:00 a.m. Welcome: Willa Tanabe, Dean, School for Hawaiian, Asian and Pacific Studies Opening Remarks: Sankaran Krishna , Director, Center for South Asian Studies 9:00 - 10:15 a.m.: Sudipta Kaviraj, School of Oriental and African Studies, London "Gandhi's Trial Read as Theatre: A Study in Rhetoric in Politics" 10:15 a.m. Coffee Break 10:30 - 12:00 a.m. Session I: Chair: Rama Nath Sharma (Indo-Pacific Languages) "'Mere Sojourners in the Land?': Indian Exhibi- tions and Anglo-Indian Public History," Peter Hoffenberg (History) "Dyer Consequences: Amritsar, Belfast, and the Legacies of the 'Minimum' Force Debates," Laura Lyons (English) "Thinking Through Orientalism: Representations of the 'Other' in India," Stuart Harten (History) 12:00 Lunch Break 1:15 - 2:45 p.m. Session II: Chair: Lynette Wageman (Asia Collection, Library) "Two Intercultural Approaches to Contemporary Indian Dance: Chandralekha and Uttara Asha Coorlawala," Sandra Chatterjee (Dance) "The Aesthetics of Early Buddhist Dance and the Portrayal of the Angahara," Amy-Ruth Holt (Art History) "The Sukumar Sen Manuscript Collection: Issues in Preservation," Rebecca Manring (Religion, Indiana University) 2:45 p.m. Coffee Break 3:00 - 5:00 p.m.: Chair: Brian Murton (Geography) Kapila Vatsyayan, Indira Gandhi Center for the Performing Arts, New Delhi "The Indian Arts: Some Key Concepts in Theory and Practice" Respondents: Eliot Deutsch (Philosophy), and Nancy Dowling (Art) FRIDAY, APRIL 16, 1999 9:00 - 10:15 AM: E. Valentine Daniel, Department of Anthropo- logy, Columbia University "Narrating the Self in Late Modernity" 10:15 a.m. Coffee Break 10:30 - 12:00 a.m. Session III: Chair: Laura Lyons (English) "Of Multicolored Ghosts and Polyglot Avatars: The Restructuring of the Post-colonial Discursive Space in Amitav Ghosh's 'The Calcutta Chromo- some'," Jorge Fernandes (Political Science) "Anglo-Indians in Contemporary Calcutta" Kathleen Cassity (English) "What's the Use of Stories that Aren't Even True? Salman Rushdie as Storyteller: Magic and Secular Transcendence," Kristen Kelley Lau (English) 12:00 Lunch Break 1:15 - 2:45 p.m. Session IV: Chair: Monica Ghosh (Asia collection, Library) "Interpolations in Mahayana Buddhist Texts: Old Idea, New Idea or No Idea At all," Jan Nattier (Religion, Indiana University) "Changing Life of a Text: Brahmanization of the Tulsi Ramayana," Ramdas Lamb (Religion) "Illuminating India: How a South Asian Diaspora Helps Build a Hindu Nation," Himanee Gupta (American Studies) 2:45 p.m. Coffee Break 3:00 - 5:00 p.m. Session V: Chair: Dharm Bhawuk (Business Administration) "The State of the Art and the Art of the State: Akbar's Ambition to Bridge the 'Realm and Religion' in the Arts and the State," Samia Rab (Architecture) "Look At Me! Childrens' Geographies of Power in a Balti Village," Kathryn Besio (Geography) "Appealing to the Goddess of Justice: A Case Study of Conservation of Village Forests in the Hill Regions of Kumaun," Safia Aggarwal (Geography) "Bureaucracy and Democracy in Pakistan," Akif Kashfi (Public Administration) SATURDAY, APRIL 17, 1999 10:00 - 11:30 a.m.: Lee Siegel, Department of Religion, University of Hawai'i at Manoa "Dance of the Serpent - Indian Snake Charmers" ALL EVENTS ARE FREE AND OPEN TO PUBLIC For more information, please contact: Safia Aggarwal, Moore 411, 956-2677 Coordinators: Sankaran Krishna and Safia Aggarwal From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU Fri Apr 9 13:14:44 1999 From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph G. Walser) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 09:14:44 -0400 Subject: Ugra(datta)pariprccha Message-ID: <161227047929.23782.9224925422703375126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be grateful if anyone could point me to a translation of the Ugradattapariprccha. Thanks in advance. Joseph Walser Dept. of Comparative Religion Tufts University Medford, MA. (617) 627-2322 fax: (617) 627-3191 From nik.macleod at CHADWYCK.CO.UK Fri Apr 9 08:39:10 1999 From: nik.macleod at CHADWYCK.CO.UK (Nik Macleod) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 09:39:10 +0100 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227047915.23782.16097639675943242108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I understand it, Vasubandhu's master Buddhamitra (or Manoratha according to Hiuan-Tsang - excuse my transliteration) was defeated in debate by the Saa.mkhya teacher Vindhyavaasin. On Vasubandhu's return from Kashmir, where he had been studying the Vaibhaa"sika system, he wrote a treatise called Paramaarthasaptati refuting the Saa.mkhya views. Santi, Nik Macleod -----Original Message----- From: nanda chandran [mailto:vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: 08 April 1999 22:52 To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: History of Debate Does anyone have any information on the debate which was supposed to have been waged between the guru of VAsubandhu and Ishvara KrishnA, the author of the SAmkhya KArikAs. It's also said that it was Ishvara Krishna who triumphed. And how valid is the identification of Ishvara Krishna with the great SamskrutaM poet KAlidhAsa? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Fri Apr 9 10:56:23 1999 From: Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 12:56:23 +0200 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri In-Reply-To: <19990406183131.493.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047917.23782.10085932929274532811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the "Nepalese recension" of the B.rhatkathaa the name of Pradyota?s elephant is Nalaagiri; cf. Budhasvaamin?s B.rhatkathaa"slokasa.mgraha (ed. Lac?te) 5.316d. This seems to be merely a variant of the form Na.daagiri which is transmitted in the "Kashmirian version" of the B.rhatkathaa; cf. K.semendra?s B.rhatkathaama~njarii (ed. Shivdatta/Parab): 2.2.26ab [Ca.n.damahaasenakathaa]; 2.2.139a [Devasmitaakhyaayikaa]; and Somadeva?s Kathaasaritsaagara (ed. Durgaprasad/Parab): 11.42ab; 12.10b; 13.7c. Linguistically, Middle Indo-Aryan nala (or na.la, still more precise) cannot be derived from Skt. nada ("boaring"), but only from Skt. na.da (or nala) "reed". The name na.daagiri is already found in Dhaatupaa.tha 50.3 (ed. Boehtlingk) [ki.m"sulakaadaya.h or ki.m"sulukaadaya.h] ad Paa.nini 6.3.117 (the word is omitted by [at least various mss of] the Ka"sikaa). Roland Steiner From roheko at MERKUR.NET Fri Apr 9 11:22:24 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 13:22:24 +0200 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047919.23782.11966368460708620352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> of course I mean "roaring" not "boaring" examples for "d" to "l" transformation (sometimes with "L" and "D") are kalamba = Skt. kadamba duvAlasa = Skt. dvAdaZa nullai = Skt. nudati, etc. see Pischel, Grammatik der Prakrit-Sprachen, ?? 244seq. compare also Pali Roland Steiner wrote: > In the "Nepalese recension" of the B.rhatkathaa the name of > Pradyota?s elephant is Nalaagiri; cf. Budhasvaamin?s > B.rhatkathaa"slokasa.mgraha (ed. Lac?te) 5.316d. This seems to be > merely a variant of the form Na.daagiri which is transmitted in the > "Kashmirian version" of the B.rhatkathaa; cf. K.semendra?s > B.rhatkathaama~njarii (ed. Shivdatta/Parab): 2.2.26ab > [Ca.n.damahaasenakathaa]; 2.2.139a [Devasmitaakhyaayikaa]; and > Somadeva?s Kathaasaritsaagara (ed. Durgaprasad/Parab): 11.42ab; > 12.10b; 13.7c. > > Linguistically, Middle Indo-Aryan nala (or na.la, still more precise) > cannot be derived from Skt. nada ("boaring"), but only from Skt. > na.da (or nala) "reed". > > The name na.daagiri is already found in Dhaatupaa.tha 50.3 (ed. > Boehtlingk) [ki.m"sulakaadaya.h or ki.m"sulukaadaya.h] ad Paa.nini > 6.3.117 (the word is omitted by [at least various mss of] the > Ka"sikaa). > > Roland Steiner From roheko at MERKUR.NET Fri Apr 9 12:00:30 1999 From: roheko at MERKUR.NET (Rolf Koch) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 14:00:30 +0200 Subject: Nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047921.23782.4938083589448252563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We should not forget, that in early Prakrit sources (commentaries on the Avazyakas, NizItha - cf. PrPN s.v. Nalagiri) we come across the reading aNalagiri (nalAgiri seems not be authentic) always in connection with Pradyota's gem (= his elephant nalagiri). ( Skt. aN "sounding, etc." ??) roheko From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Apr 9 13:50:05 1999 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 14:50:05 +0100 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri In-Reply-To: <19990409120804.6074.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047934.23782.8771509995483454462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Can an Indologist please explain me the connection between >'reed' and 'elephant'?; (also, possibly NaLa in Mahabharata >and 'reed')? > >Thanks, >N. Ganesan > What comes to my mind is a connection by contrast only, cf. UdAnavarga (ed. Bernhard) 4.37: dhunidhvaM mRtyunaH sainyaM naDAgAram iva kuJjaraH "Crush the army of Death like an elephant (crushes) a house made of reed." As for Nala and reed: reed may have a sexual connotation (like daNDa). Regards G.v.Simson From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Fri Apr 9 14:24:28 1999 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 16:24:28 +0200 Subject: Ugra(datta)pariprccha In-Reply-To: <"Joseph G. Walser"'s message of Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:14:44 -0400> Message-ID: <161227047941.23782.5554400316735557891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Joseph G. Walser" writes: > I would be grateful if anyone could point me to a translation of the > Ugradattapariprccha. Thanks in advance. There is a Ph.D. thesis by Nancy J. Schuster on Ugrapariprccha (Univ. of Toronto) which came out 1976, see Buddhist Text Information, No. 22, Dec. 1979, p. 6 seq. It must be in Dissertations Abstracts, too. Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Universitaet Bonn From mmaggi at SINERGIA.IT Fri Apr 9 15:43:32 1999 From: mmaggi at SINERGIA.IT (MAGGI, Mauro) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 16:43:32 +0100 Subject: Ugra(datta)pariprccha Message-ID: <161227047943.23782.1184785671670287193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to Peter Pfandt, Mahayana texts translated into Western languages: a bibliographical guide, Koeln 1986, 241, a complete English translation from Chinese is contained in Nancy Joann Schuster, The Ugrapariprccha, the Maharatnakutasutra and early Mahayana Buddhism, 2 vols., Ph.D. diss., Univ. of Toronto, 1976. Dr. Mauro Maggi Corso Antonio Gramsci 13 00045 Genzano di Roma Italia E-mail: mmaggi at sinergia.it Tel.: +39 069364890 Istituto italiano per l'Africa e l'Oriente (IsIAO) Biblioteca. Sezione orientale Via Merulana 248 00185 Roma Italia Tel.: +39 064874273 (centralino) Fax: +39 064873138 From Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Fri Apr 9 14:55:01 1999 From: Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 16:55:01 +0200 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri In-Reply-To: <370DE2EF.31E2BB89@merkur.net> Message-ID: <161227047936.23782.1930525333054752025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 9 Apr 99, at 13:22, Rolf Koch wrote: > of course I mean "roaring" not "boaring" I must apologize for having copied the typing error by inadvertence. > examples for "d" to "l" transformation (sometimes with "L" and "D") are > kalamba = Skt. kadamba duvAlasa = Skt. dvAdaZa nullai = Skt. nudati, etc. > see Pischel, Grammatik der Prakrit-Sprachen, ?? 244seq. These examples have to be judged separately. -- Pkt. kalamba seems to be derived from Skt. ka.damba > Tam. ka.tampu, Kan. ka.damba, etc. (cf. Turner CDIAL No. 2710; Mayrhofer `Kurzgefasstes etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindischen? i 144, s.v.). Cf. also Pkt. kaamba > Skt. kadamba. -- Pkt. duvaalasa (Skt. dvaada"sa). In Pali representation of d by r (through .d) is quite common in the compound numerals with dasa `ten? (e.g. ekaarasa `eleven? beside ekaadasa; baarasa `twelve? [dv- > b-), cf. Geiger ? 43.1. According to the following ? 44, a secondary r originating from d alternates with l in telasa/terasa `thirteen?. -- According to Mayrhofer ("Etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindischen" ii 58, s.v.) the etymology of Skt. nod "to push" is "not clear". Cf. also lu.dati `stirs?, nu.dati `strikes" (CDIAL No. 11080). Be that as it may, in the general development of Indo-Aryan intervocalic -d- of the early Middle Indian stage (Pali) does not remain (except in European Gypsy and Kalaa"sa which keep -t- and - d- as l; cf. R.L. Turner, `Collected Papers 1912-1973?, p. 239; moreover, in his commentary to Gaandhaarii Dharmapada 330, Brough considers a `sporadic appearance of -l- for intervocalic -d- < - t-? for the Gaandhaarii), whereas -.d- regularly becomes -.l-. On 9 Apr 99, at 14:50, Georg von Simson wrote: > As for Nala and reed: reed may have a sexual connotation (like > daNDa). See also Heinrich Lueders (Philologica Indica, p. 555), who compares the old king's name Nala (according to him originally "cane" [still Na.da in "SB. 2,3,2,1.2]; cf. naa.dii, naala, nalina, etc.) with names like Ve.nu etc. Regards, Roland Steiner From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU Fri Apr 9 22:51:32 1999 From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph G. Walser) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 18:51:32 -0400 Subject: Ugradattapariprccha Message-ID: <161227047945.23782.11046857313636314074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank everyone who has responded to my request for information. You have been a great help! Joseph Joseph Walser Dept. of Comparative Religion Tufts University Medford, MA. (617) 627-2322 fax: (617) 627-3191 From HubeyH at MAIL.MONTCLAIR.EDU Sat Apr 10 09:19:35 1999 From: HubeyH at MAIL.MONTCLAIR.EDU (H. Mark Hubey) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 05:19:35 -0400 Subject: bhakti- etc Message-ID: <161227047950.23782.1155832094850034097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > n. 'lot, share', m. 'god'; New Persian bag- 'god'. The element representing > the form *bahta- has been found in some Scythian names from North Pontic > Steppes. Russian and even common Pra-Slavic *bog "(happy) lot", "share", > "destiny", "god", "God" - is most probably a loanword from an Iranian > (*Indo-Iranian?) source (formally and semantically it is the closest parallel > to Skt bhaga/Bhaga and Av. baga-). The same word, but in its Indo-Iranian > form *bhaga-s, was borrowed by the Volga Finns (Mordovian-Erzja *paz*, *pas* > 'god' Mordovian-Moksha *pavas* 'god', 'good luck', 'happiness'). How about something even more obvious. Bogha = bull. Worship of animals or gods manifested in animals, or the animals as manifestations of gods probably has a very long history in human affairs. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 10 18:12:53 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 11:12:53 -0700 Subject: seeking articles Message-ID: <161227047959.23782.15106993745538888368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Also: _The Murderous Bride_ section of Shulman, D. D. Tamil Temple Myths: Sacrifice and Divine Marriage in the South Indian Saiva Tradition. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1980. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 10 18:23:28 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 11:23:28 -0700 Subject: eddress: W. Radice Message-ID: <161227047962.23782.12328750697402995799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone provide the e-mail address of Dr. William Radice, the author of R. Tagore, Selected poems, Penguin. Is he still at SOAS, London? V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sat Apr 10 07:33:43 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 11:33:43 +0400 Subject: bhakti- etc Message-ID: <161227047947.23782.841537245602123149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From yavass Sat Apr 10 11:11:00 MSD 1999 Dear colleagues, at last I have an opportunity to express my belated but heartfelt thanks to Ferenz Ruzsa, Harry Spier, K.S.Arjunwadkar, C.R.Selvakumar, Christian Lee Novetzke, Naseem Hines, N.Ganesan and Luis Gonzales-Reimann (who addressed me privately) - for useful information and comments on the historical semantics of *bhaga*, *bhagavat*, *bhakti* and *bhakta*. N.Ganesan (30 Mar) asks: "Does Bhaga have cognates with Old Iranian and/or IE"? There are many cognates of *bhaga* in Iranian languages: avest. bag- 'to be fixed as a share', bahsh 'to take as a share', 'to taste', 'to partake', 'to eat' (cf. Skt. bhakS-), avest. bahta- 'recieved as a share', 'lot', 'happiness' and also "god as giver of a share/lot/destiny"; avest. baga- n. 'lot, share', m. 'god'; New Persian bag- 'god'. The element representing the form *bahta- has been found in some Scythian names from North Pontic Steppes. Russian and even common Pra-Slavic *bog "(happy) lot", "share", "destiny", "god", "God" - is most probably a loanword from an Iranian (*Indo-Iranian?) source (formally and semantically it is the closest parallel to Skt bhaga/Bhaga and Av. baga-). The same word, but in its Indo-Iranian form *bhaga-s, was borrowed by the Volga Finns (Mordovian-Erzja *paz*, *pas* 'god' Mordovian-Moksha *pavas* 'god', 'good luck', 'happiness'). Contrary to the opinion of many linguists who think the Old Russian term *bogatyr* "rich man; lucky man; the epic hero" is of Turco-Mongolian origin, I suppose it is an Old Russian word meaning "one whose share is great" (*bog* - "share, lot" - *-at* - a suffix, cf. *bogat*, *bogaty* "rich, lucky" + *yr'* - another suffix) which provides the closest parallel both to Skt *bhagavat* and Skt Epic *mahAbhAga- 'one whose share is great'. By the way, some of the "Mitanni names" contain the element *bhag-*: *Bagarriti*, *Bagbartu*. Possibly relevant are Kafiri theonym *Bagisht* and Dardic (Kalash) *Bagorai* ( > But at the same time I think that the interrelation of >Skt *bhaga*, *bhagavat*, *bhakti* and Tamil *paku*, *vaku*, >*pakavan*, *patti* (see contributions by C.R.Selvakumar and >N.Ganesan) forms an interesting problem and deserves investigation. By way of few forwardings, got this writeup by a Westcoast Indologist: [[[ Sanskrit bhaj is in Indo-Iranian and is the source of the Russian word for God, bog (also the city Baghdad, which would be bhaagadatta in Skt, "given by God" -- the name must be Persian). It's clearly Indo-European. ]]] Tamil word 'paku' (also, 'vaku') with the same meaning as 'bhaga' are coincidences. But that is probably the reason why Sanskrit word 'bhakti' attains prominence as time goes by. Ta. paRRu/pattu/patti 'attachment' and Ta. paku 'share/divide' strikes accord in phonology and semantics that ancient Dravidians heartily accepted 'bhakti', I think. Mass bhakti cults begin in Tamil land and spreads further north all over India. Maayaa and mukti also have good parallels in Dravidian with their IE roots. V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From HubeyH at MAIL.MONTCLAIR.EDU Sat Apr 10 18:22:29 1999 From: HubeyH at MAIL.MONTCLAIR.EDU (H. Mark Hubey) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 14:22:29 -0400 Subject: bhakti- etc Message-ID: <161227047961.23782.11147056588649040600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > Dear Mark, > sorry, but I fail to see any historico-semantic or phonetic > correlation between Turkic *bogha*, *bugha*, *buga* - and Iranian / Slavic > derivatives of IE *bhag. Or the Mordovian *pas /paz/ pavas* (< Volgo-Permian > *paghas < IIr *bhagas). If you mean that common Russian / Slavic *bog- is to > be traced to Turkic *bogha*, I can not agree with you, because this Turkic The word could have made its way into Turkic very long ago. The question is one of too many coincidences. The bull is still very important among the Parsis, and the cow is still important in the Hindi religion. There is a semantic and phonological match. "wealth" could easily come from "god" in the form of "blessed with goods". The bull could easily be transformed into a symbol of fertility even for crops in primitive agricultural societies and obviously would be important for pastoral communities especially if they were cow-herders. > word has really been borrowed into (Southern) Russian and Ukranian, but in > the form of *bugaj* 'bull', which is phonetically quite correct. But the word > *bog could never represent Turkic *bogha / bugha / buga, while it reflects quite > correctly Iranian *bhaga* >*bag/a/.* (Slavic *o* regularly corresponds to > Iranian *a*). What is equally important (besides phonetic similiarity / > identity of Slavic and IIr words) is full coincidence of all aspects of > their meaning, their "semantic field" (in both cases "lot; share; good luck, > happiness; god of good luck/destiny; god in general"). It could have easily been borrowed back or even back and forth. We still don't know if many of the cognate words in IE are mostly diffusion back and forth between languages or come from the earliest *PIE protoform. > And why Turkic word for a "bull" should appear in other languages with the > meaning "God"? Can you refer to any language where the word meaning "bull" > acquired eventually meaning "god" or "(monotheistic) God"? > If I misunderstood you, please correct me. > All the best, > Yaroslav Vassilkov > > >Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: > > >> n. 'lot, share', m. 'god'; New Persian bag- 'god'. The element representing > >> the form *bahta- has been found in some Scythian names from North Pontic > >> Steppes. Russian and even common Pra-Slavic *bog "(happy) lot", "share", > >> "destiny", "god", "God" - is most probably a loanword from an Iranian > >> (*Indo-Iranian?) source (formally and semantically it is the closest parallel > >> to Skt bhaga/Bhaga and Av. baga-). The same word, but in its Indo-Iranian > >> form *bhaga-s, was borrowed by the Volga Finns (Mordovian-Erzja *paz*, *pas* > >> 'god' Mordovian-Moksha *pavas* 'god', 'good luck', 'happiness'). > > >How about something even more obvious. Bogha = bull. > > >Worship of animals or gods manifested in animals, or the animals > >as manifestations of gods probably has a very long history in > >human affairs. > > -- > >Best Regards, > >Mark -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From mcv at WXS.NL Sat Apr 10 16:09:26 1999 From: mcv at WXS.NL (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 16:09:26 +0000 Subject: bhakti- etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047957.23782.4381757767265969190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Yaroslav V. Vassilkov" wrote: >What is equally important (besides phonetic similiarity / >identity of Slavic and IIr words) is full coincidence of all aspects of >their meaning, their "semantic field" (in both cases "lot; share; good luck, >happiness; god of good luck/destiny; god in general"). Not forgetting the derivation "wealthy, rich". ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl Amsterdam From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Sat Apr 10 14:33:03 1999 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 16:33:03 +0200 Subject: seeking articles Message-ID: <161227047955.23782.8018939019755310798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, I've been trying to obtain copies of various articles for my thesis but have failed to locate some. Perhaps some of the listmembers could support my search and kindly fax/mail them to me. (Preferrably from Germany or within Europe, expenses will be covered.) Here's the list: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhanj Deo & Kumar Prafulla Chandra; 1955-56: Mahishasuramardini Durga. in: JOI 5, 52-60. Banerjee, Nanigopal; 1955: A new light on Durgosatva. in: IHQ 31, 3, 227-231. Chandola, Anoop; 1989: On Practical Hinduism: The Puja As Human Contact. in: The Mankind Quarterly, Vol. 29 No. 4. (Vol. 28, No. 4: S. 383 ff.) Choudhuri, Narendra Nath; 1950: Mother Goddess DurgA. in: PO 15, 32-38. Coburn, Thomas; 1984: "Scripture" in India: Towards a Typology of the Word in Hindu Life. in: Journal of the American Academy of Religion 52 (1984): 435-459. Icke-Schwalbe, Lydia; 1993: Agrarian Rites of the Durga Festival - An analysis of Bengal Customs. in: Journal of the Indian Anthropological Society, Vol. 28, No. 3: S. 295 ff. Kinsley, David; 1978: The Portrait of the Goddesses in the Devi Mahatmya. in: The Journal of the American Academy of Religion 46 (1978): 489-506. Kondos, Vivienne; 1986: Images of the fierce goddess and portrayals of Hindu women. in: C.I.S. (N.S.) 20, II, July-December 1986, 173-197. Kramrisch, Stella; 1975: The Indian Great Goddesses. in: History of Religions 14: 235-65. Mazumdar, B. C.; 1906: Durga: Her Origin and History. in: Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society: 355-362. Srinivas, M. N.; 1956: A Note on Sanskritization and Westernization. in: Far Eastern Quarterly XV 4 (Aug. 1956): 481-496. Staal, J. F.; 1963: Sanskrit and sanskritization. in: Journal of Asian Studies Vol. 22/3: 261-275. Stietencron von, Heinrich; 1983: Die Gottin Durga Mahishasuramardini, Mythos, Darstellung und geschichtliche Rolle bei der Hinduisierung Indiens. in: Visible Religion: Annual for Religious Iconography, 118-166. Vol. 2: Representation of Gods. Leiden: E. J. Brill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please, get in touch with me to discuss the details. Thanks for your kind attention. Regards Tobias *********************************** Mr. T. Grote-Beverborg Institute of Indology and Tamils Studies (IITS) Pohligstr. 1 D-50969 Koeln phone: ++49-221-470.5345 fax: ++49-221-470.5385 grotebev at uni-koeln.de http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/ From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Sat Apr 10 13:19:05 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 17:19:05 +0400 Subject: bhakti- etc Message-ID: <161227047952.23782.4378220703864692588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mark, sorry, but I fail to see any historico-semantic or phonetic correlation between Turkic *bogha*, *bugha*, *buga* - and Iranian / Slavic derivatives of IE *bhag. Or the Mordovian *pas /paz/ pavas* (< Volgo-Permian *paghas < IIr *bhagas). If you mean that common Russian / Slavic *bog- is to be traced to Turkic *bogha*, I can not agree with you, because this Turkic word has really been borrowed into (Southern) Russian and Ukranian, but in the form of *bugaj* 'bull', which is phonetically quite correct. But the word *bog could never represent Turkic *bogha / bugha / buga, while it reflects quite correctly Iranian *bhaga* >*bag/a/.* (Slavic *o* regularly corresponds to Iranian *a*). What is equally important (besides phonetic similiarity / identity of Slavic and IIr words) is full coincidence of all aspects of their meaning, their "semantic field" (in both cases "lot; share; good luck, happiness; god of good luck/destiny; god in general"). And why Turkic word for a "bull" should appear in other languages with the meaning "God"? Can you refer to any language where the word meaning "bull" acquired eventually meaning "god" or "(monotheistic) God"? If I misunderstood you, please correct me. All the best, Yaroslav Vassilkov >Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: >> n. 'lot, share', m. 'god'; New Persian bag- 'god'. The element representing >> the form *bahta- has been found in some Scythian names from North Pontic >> Steppes. Russian and even common Pra-Slavic *bog "(happy) lot", "share", >> "destiny", "god", "God" - is most probably a loanword from an Iranian >> (*Indo-Iranian?) source (formally and semantically it is the closest parallel >> to Skt bhaga/Bhaga and Av. baga-). The same word, but in its Indo-Iranian >> form *bhaga-s, was borrowed by the Volga Finns (Mordovian-Erzja *paz*, *pas* >> 'god' Mordovian-Moksha *pavas* 'god', 'good luck', 'happiness'). >How about something even more obvious. Bogha = bull. >Worship of animals or gods manifested in animals, or the animals >as manifestations of gods probably has a very long history in >human affairs. -- >Best Regards, >Mark From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Apr 10 21:28:20 1999 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 17:28:20 -0400 Subject: Dyczkowski/Kasmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227047970.23782.11652564780927894906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings all, Might anyone have an e-mail or contact address for Mark Dyczkowski who has written extensively on Kashmir Shaivism? Much obliged, Edwin Bryant From umadevi at SFO.COM Sat Apr 10 17:37:25 1999 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 18:37:25 +0100 Subject: An Article on Akbar Message-ID: <161227047974.23782.14868136425057836970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings Indologists, Could anyone suggest an article on Akbar's experiments in religion? I would be most grateful for any help. Thanks in advance, Mary Storm From jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK Sat Apr 10 18:49:53 1999 From: jds10 at CUS.CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 19:49:53 +0100 Subject: eddress: W. Radice In-Reply-To: <19990410182328.93834.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227047968.23782.5508866100021686415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > Can anyone provide the e-mail address of Dr. William Radice, > the author of R. Tagore, Selected poems, Penguin. Is he still > at SOAS, London? Yes, he's still at SOAS. His email address is wr at soas.ac.uk. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Sat Apr 10 18:41:17 1999 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 20:41:17 +0200 Subject: seeking articles In-Reply-To: <370F611F.D3E8F20E@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <161227047964.23782.12605978013125004195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lieber Herr Grote-Beverborg, Ich habe die folgenden drei Aufs?tze direkt vor mir liegen, und kann am Montag zur Post bringen. > Kramrisch, Stella; 1975: The Indian Great Goddesses. > in: History of Religions 14: 235-65. > Srinivas, M. N.; 1956: A Note on Sanskritization and Westernization. > in: Far Eastern Quarterly XV 4 (Aug. 1956): 481-496. > Staal, J. F.; 1963: Sanskrit and sanskritization. > in: Journal of Asian Studies Vol. 22/3: 261-275. MfG, Sreenivas -- E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Sun Apr 11 01:17:35 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 21:17:35 -0400 Subject: Ugradattapariprccha and distress In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227047971.23782.5206139312118176322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan Nattier of Indian University is working on a critical edition of the Tibetan text of the Ugradatta, and an English translation taking into account the Tibetan tradition and all Chinese versions. A complete translation exists by Sakurabe Hajime in Daijo Butten vol. 9 (Tokyo: Chuo Koron). -- of course, in Japanese. ***The distress part: it wastes time if those asking for information do not add to their requests what they already know, and do not take the trouble to check readily available sources of information such as specialized bibliographies. The kind of information that the members of this list can best provide is that such as the above: work in progress, and that published in languages that are considered "exotic" (or as classified in a bookshop I was just in, "unusual") such as Japanese. But a PhD dissertation? Such information is available on line from UMI, which pretty much every scholar does or should know ... Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 11 15:42:20 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 99 08:42:20 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227047983.23782.1198686430701852497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The name of the elephant Devadatta planned to use to kill the Buddha >was in fact not nalagiri but nAlAgiri - "tena kho pana samayena >rAjagahe nAlAgiri nAma hatthI caNDo hoti manussaghAtako" [Vin. II, >p. 194]. The Burmese edition of the Canon has nALAgiri. >*nAlA-/nALA- is not known to the PED.* [...] The many variations, nAlAgiri (vin.), nALAgiri (Burmese version), nalaagiri (Kashmiri version of b.rhatkathaa), ... are interesting. Tamil version of b.rhatkathaa calls an elephant, naLakiri (=naLagiri) resembling a black, huge mountain. Like the mahabharata epic characters, naLa and naaLaayaNii, this naLagiri may also represent 'black'. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 11 16:06:16 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 99 09:06:16 -0700 Subject: Kailash mountain Message-ID: <161227047985.23782.4871809899500483950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What are the earliest texts in Sanskrit talking of Kailash in Tibet as the abode of ziva? Thanks for any guidance. V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 11 16:46:39 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 99 09:46:39 -0700 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227047987.23782.15560250355485780302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Palaniappan wrote: >Alavay is a compound made up of Alam and vAy where Ta. Alam means >banyan tree and Ta. vAy should be interpreted as "place". Thus >AlavAy means "the banyan tree place" in much the same way "alaivAy" >(aka.266.20) refers to "place of waves". Originally it seems to have >meant only a location inside Madurai and not the whole of Madurai. >What is the significance of the banyan tree place? >That is where dakSiNAmUrti is located along with his disciples. >The importance of dakSiNAmUrti cult in the mythology/history of >Madurai, Potiyil, Agastya, and Tamil grammatical, literary, and >aesthetic traditions has not been fully recognized by scholars till >now. Chevillard wrote: Greetings! How do you link this with Akam 181 (16-17) which seems to mention the presence of Shiva (of the 4 veda-s) in a place called AlamuRRam (Banyan Yard?) which is apparently connected with pukAr and the Chola? ............... nAn2 maRai mutu nUl mukkaN+ celvan2 AlamuRRam kavin2 peRa+ taiiya ............... Shiva and the Banyan tree are connected not only in AlavAy (Madurai), AlamuRRam (pukAr), but also to places, AlanguDi, AlangADu (cf. Tevaram verses). The Dakshinamurti theme, His peaceful aspect and relationship to Banyan tree, Teacher of all Arts is very special to Tamil religion, both in myth and sculpture, atleast from the sangam era. Continuation of ancient traditions much before Tamil came to be written?? Vedic knows Shiva as Rudra and as an 'outsider'. The peaceful concept of ziva, the Universal teacher sitting under the banyan ie., Dakshinamurti was new to Sanskrit. When this aspect was integrated there via agamas, Shiva in this mode cam naturally to be named Dakshinamurti, 'the Lord from the South'. Usually, South is the direction of Death and hence no reason to call the peaceful, supreme teacher as Dakshinamurti. Relevant literature finds it hard to explain the meaning of Dakshinamurti and hope my explanation helps. Greetings, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jaybee at TM.NET.MY Sun Apr 11 06:25:41 1999 From: jaybee at TM.NET.MY (jayabarathi) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 99 14:25:41 +0800 Subject: Vastu/Sthapatya Ved newsgroup/mailing list In-Reply-To: <000f01be7e71$5cecce60$4e455e18@hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <161227047876.23782.11615772781286851232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:01 PM 4/3/99 -1000, you wrote: >Does anyone know of any sthapatya ved mailing lists or newsgroups? > >Happy Easter! > >Nicholas Bedworth May Easter bring New Life and Joy! There are no Vastu or hindu archtectural news groups. But I have seen some articles about the subject coming up in the alt.jyotish newsgroup. If you are interested in the Chinese art of Geomancy, then you can search for Feng Shui web-sites. There seem to be quite a number of them. You beleive in these things? "Blessed are they that have not seen; yet beleive." Regards Jayabarathi ===================================================== > From hart at POLBOX.COM Sun Apr 11 12:57:23 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 99 14:57:23 +0200 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri In-Reply-To: <199904091056.MAA36444@Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> Message-ID: <161227047976.23782.10989468705999374105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The name of the elephant Devadatta planned to use to kill the Buddha was in fact not nalagiri but nAlAgiri - "tena kho pana samayena rAjagahe nAlAgiri nAma hatthI caNDo hoti manussaghAtako" [Vin. II, p. 194]. The Burmese edition of the Canon has nALAgiri. nAlA-/nALA- is not known to the PED. If it is connected with Pa. nAlI/i and if its meaning covers the semantic field of Skt. nADI (among others also "any hole or crevice", MMW), then the name nAlA-giri <>, alludes perhaps to fissures on male elephants temples, when in rut. caNDo hatthI means "rogue elephant". The jAtaka 533 (which presents a more detailed version of the incident) has Devadatta ordering the royal elephant keepers to ply nAlAgiri with the double measure of his usual portion of liquor (sixteen pitchers of surA instead of eight) - as if to strengthen the animal's fury. It may be significant that while pacifying nAlAgiri the Buddha touches with his right hand the animal's frontal globe(s): "bhagavA dakkhinena hatthena nAlAgirissa hatthissa kumbhaM parAmasanto..." [Vin. II, p. 195]. Hoping it helps, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland ----------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ----------------- Szybka w sciaganiu, animowana, interaktywna, z muzyka i efektami dzwiekowymi.... Zobacz jak moze wygladac strona WWW: http://www.webdesign.pl/ --------------------------------------------------------------- From hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Apr 12 02:01:03 1999 From: hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 99 19:01:03 -0700 Subject: EMail address / Contact address of Prof K.P. Athal- requested Message-ID: <161227047993.23782.8810200850732494846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings! Will any body in the Indology group please help me in getting me the eMail address or contact address of Prof K.P. Aithal of South Asia Institute, University of Heidelberg, Germany - who has written many books, including the one on AshvalAyana Grihya-sUthra bhAshya by dEvaswAmin (Edtd Adyar Library Publn)? Thanks! -Harihareswara Stockton, California, USA From asugu at MD3.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Apr 11 13:54:04 1999 From: asugu at MD3.VSNL.NET.IN (A .Sugumaran) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 99 19:24:04 +0530 Subject: THIRUMOOLAR AT CHIDAMBARAM Message-ID: <161227047979.23782.15860536128906765670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Engr. A.Sugumaran Ishwarya exports Chidambaram-INDIA-608001 Fax:0091-4144-22265 E.mail: asugu at md3.vsnl.net.in ,herbalking99 at yahoo.com GREETINGS INDOLOGISTS, Could any one suggest any authenticated information regarding the association of THIRUMOOLAR(auther of Thirumandiram) with chidambaram temple Some people having faith that his samathi(burried place)at MOOLANATHER SHIRINE at chidambaram NATARAJAR TEMPLE. SOME SAYS ABOUT THIRUVADUTHURAI(where he entered the body of moolan) THANKS IN ADVANCE A.SUGUMARAN From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Sun Apr 11 18:19:37 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 99 20:19:37 +0200 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227047991.23782.17667193806436580756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Nanda, I think there is only Chinese (also Corean and Japanese) Buddhist tradition on the point; a detailed account with the relevant passages translated (into French) can be found in M. J. Takakusu: La sAMkhyakArikA etudiee a la lumiere de sa version chinoise. in: Bulletin de l'Ecole Francaise d'Extreme-Orient. Tome IV., 1904. pp. 1-65 & 978-1063, esp. pp. 37-49. The identification of kAlidAsa with IZvarakRSNa seems to me impossible; but I am rather interested as to its source. In paramArtha's _The Life of vasubandhu_ it is said that the king who gave 3 lacs of gold for the triumph to the author of the 70 sAMkhya verses was vikramAditya; so this could have been the source of the confusion. Yours, Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa assistant professor of metaphysics E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu -----Original Message----- From: nanda chandran >Does anyone have any information on the debate which was supposed to >have been waged between the guru of VAsubandhu and Ishvara KrishnA, >the author of the SAmkhya KArikAs. It's also said that it was Ishvara >Krishna who triumphed. >And how valid is the identification of Ishvara Krishna with the great >SamskrutaM poet KAlidhAsa? From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sun Apr 11 20:35:08 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 99 20:35:08 +0000 Subject: THIRUMOOLAR AT CHIDAMBARAM Message-ID: <161227047981.23782.14542799242523754569.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "A .Sugumaran" wrote: > Could any one suggest any authenticated information > regarding the association of THIRUMOOLAR(auther of Thirumandiram) > with chidambaram temple> Some people having faith that his samathi(burried place)at> MOOLANATHER SHIRINE at chidambaram NATARAJAR TEMPLE.> SOME SAYS ABOUT THIRUVADUTHURAI(where he entered the > body of moolan) In an article in the Hindu (http://www.webpage.com/hindu/daily/980707/09/09070174.htm), Mr. Kandasamy states:"(Thirumoolar was in) contemplation beneath the shade of a Bodhi tree at Tiruvavaduthurai" This, while reviewing the book:TIRUMANDIRAM MOOLAPAADA AAYVU PATHIPPU - In three volumes: (Tamil) Dr. SP. Annamalai - Editor; Indian Institute of Indology, 84, Kalakshetra Road, Tiruvanmiyur, Chennai-600041. Rs. 480. Regards, Dr. S.Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From asugu at MD3.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Apr 11 17:59:55 1999 From: asugu at MD3.VSNL.NET.IN (A .Sugumaran) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 99 23:29:55 +0530 Subject: Fw: THIRUMOOLAR AT CHIDAMBARAM Message-ID: <161227047989.23782.14404891574696650388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Engr. A.Sugumaran Ishwarya exports Chidambaram-INDIA-608001 Fax:0091-4144-22265 E.mail: asugu at md3.vsnl.net.in ishwaryaexp99 at hotmail.com ---------- > From: S.Kalyanaraman > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: THIRUMOOLAR AT CHIDAMBARAM > Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 2:05 AM > > "A .Sugumaran" wrote: > > Could any one suggest any authenticated information > > regarding the association of THIRUMOOLAR(auther of Thirumandiram) > > with chidambaram temple> Some people having faith that his > samathi(burried place)at> MOOLANATHER SHIRINE at chidambaram NATARAJAR > TEMPLE.> SOME SAYS ABOUT THIRUVADUTHURAI(where he entered the > > body of moolan) > > In an article in the Hindu > (http://www.webpage.com/hindu/daily/980707/09/09070174.htm), Mr. Kandasamy > states:"(Thirumoolar was in) contemplation beneath the shade of a Bodhi tree > at Tiruvavaduthurai" > This, while reviewing the book:TIRUMANDIRAM MOOLAPAADA AAYVU PATHIPPU - In > three volumes: (Tamil) Dr. SP. Annamalai - Editor; Indian Institute of > Indology, 84, Kalakshetra Road, Tiruvanmiyur, Chennai-600041. Rs. 480. > > Regards, > Dr. S.Kalyanaraman > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. DEAR SIR, THANK YOU FOR THE MESSAGE, I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER BODHI TREE IS ARASA TREE IN TAMIL. HOW THIS NAME COME TO THE TREE. 'ARASA" IN TAMIL MEANS KING. GOTHAMA BUTHAR ALSO ASSOCIATED WITH BODHI TREE, HE WAS A KING BY BIRTH. EXPECTING THE EXPLANATIONS REGARDS A.SUGUMARAN From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 12 12:18:28 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 05:18:28 -0700 Subject: Where is Asanpet? Message-ID: <161227048002.23782.9678561522875461057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, Where is Asanpet? In A.P. or Karnataka or Maharashtra? What 'Shiva temple is there? Thanks. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 12 12:24:10 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 05:24:10 -0700 Subject: Where is Asanpat? Message-ID: <161227048004.23782.1368026703771918113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is actually Asanpat? NOT Asanpet. Sorry for the error. Thanks for locating Asanpat, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Mon Apr 12 08:16:50 1999 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 09:16:50 +0100 Subject: Update 4 to Pali Canon online Message-ID: <161227047996.23782.10836986313657450854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The fourth update to the machine-readable version of the Sinhalese edition (BJT) of the Pali Canon from SLTP (IBRIC) is now available from the Journal of Buddhist Ethics (JBE) sites in the U.K. and U.S. (There is some work still in progress on this; so those interested may want to check back later to see if anything has been added.) Details of changes in this update: The whole of the Vinaya-pi.taka has been proof-read once. SIL standard references (for use with concordancing programs) have been added. Thirty eight later Pali works are now available, including eleven grammatical works and sixteen va.msa texts. Fuller details of these will be posted in new readme files shortly. All proofread files have been gone through again (ie. Vinaya-pi.taka , Diigha-nikaaya, Majjhima-nikaaya, Sa.myutta-nikaaya and Anguttara-nikaaya), using a method of error detection suggested by Frank Snow whereby impossible combinations in Pali were identified. This has corrected some 5,000 errors overall in these files. As before the files are available from the JBE websites: http://www.gold.ac.uk/jbe/jbe.html http://jbe.la.psu.edu/palicanon.html ----------------------------- Details of previous updates: Update 3 : The only change was that the whole of the Sa.myutta-nikaaya was proof-read once. Update 2: One volume of the Vinaya (BJT Vol 1/PTS Vol IV) and the whole of the Diigha-nikaaya and the Majjhima-nikaaya were proof-read once. The versions of the Mahaaniddesa and Cuu.laniddesa were partially spell-checked. Further missing pages in the Kathaavatthu were added. All the PTS page numbering was completed, including the the four postcanonical texts. Some 30,000 errors were identified and corrected in different texts. Update 1: Missing sections in the Diigha-nikaaya, Jaataka and Kathaavatthu were added. A revised version of AN was included. There was some additional PTS page numbering in the Khuddaka-nikaaya. Amendments were made to the Mahaaniddesa. Small numbers of errors in various texts were corrected. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From d53 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Mon Apr 12 08:40:28 1999 From: d53 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Thomas Lehmann) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 10:40:28 +0200 Subject: EMail address / Contact address of Prof K.P. Athal- requested In-Reply-To: <371153DF.1DA589F0@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <161227047998.23782.15505117458119267785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Shikaripura Harihareswara wrote: > eMail address or contact address of Prof K.P. Aithal of South Asia > Institute, University of Heidelberg, Germany - who has written many the e-mail address is: b56 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de _____________________________________________________________________________ Thomas Lehmann, e-mail: d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Apr 12 18:04:38 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 11:04:38 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit for Cyber Space Message-ID: <161227048005.23782.1523838893194556702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Now is probably the auspicious time to ask because we receive emails from Chidambaram proper. Tillai (Chidambaram) has mainly two sabhAs - ciRRampalam (Small hall, citsabhA/cit AkAza) and pErambalam (Big hall, DevasabhA). Philosophically, they represent the Human consciousness and Universe resp.; In both Inner and Outer cosmos, Lord NaTarAja dances blissfully for ever. In those days, electromagnetic waves were not discovered. The cyber space, parallel to the concept of Small and Big sabha-s (cit & AkAza), is called minnambalam in Tamil now. I am requesting Sanskrit words for 'cyber' please, then they can be tagged in front of sabhA or AkAza. Grateful for suggestions. Happy New Year's day (ancient solar calender), SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Apr 12 18:10:03 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 11:10:03 -0700 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048007.23782.10249482933623232671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is this why the ancient Saiva saint Maanikkavasagar proclaims: ten2n2ADuDaiya civan2E pORRi! ennATTavarkkum iRaivA pORRi! Salutations to Shiva, whose perpetual possession is the Southern country, and who is the God for people of all countries! > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Shiva and the Banyan tree are connected not only in AlavAy (Madurai), > AlamuRRam (pukAr), but also to places, AlanguDi, AlangADu (cf. Tevaram > verses). The Dakshinamurti theme, His peaceful aspect and relationship > to Banyan tree, Teacher of all Arts is very special to Tamil > religion, both in myth and sculpture, atleast from the sangam era. > Continuation of ancient traditions much before Tamil came to be > written?? > > Vedic knows Shiva as Rudra and as an 'outsider'. The peaceful concept > of ziva, the Universal teacher sitting under the banyan ie., > Dakshinamurti was new to Sanskrit. When this aspect was integrated > there via agamas, Shiva in this mode cam naturally to be named > Dakshinamurti, 'the Lord from the South'. Usually, South is the > direction of Death and hence no reason to call the peaceful, supreme > teacher as Dakshinamurti. Relevant literature finds it hard to > explain the meaning of Dakshinamurti and hope my explanation helps. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Mon Apr 12 09:12:39 1999 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 11:12:39 +0200 Subject: seeking articles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048000.23782.11089359399272438113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tobias Grote-Beverborg writes: > I've been trying to obtain copies of various articles for my thesis > but have failed to locate some. > Perhaps some of the listmembers could support my search and kindly > fax/mail them to me. (Preferrably from Germany or within Europe, > expenses will be covered.) Some of the Journals and/or volumes are available in Bonn, most of them are available via interlibrary loan. > Srinivas, M. N.; 1956: A Note on Sanskritization and Westernization. > in: Far Eastern Quarterly XV 4 (Aug. 1956): 481-496. This important article was reprinted in M. N. Srinivas: Caste in Modern India and other Essays. London: Asia Publ. House 1962 (Reprints in 1964, 1970 etc.). Peter Wyzlic From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 12 21:37:11 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 14:37:11 -0700 Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati Message-ID: <161227048009.23782.1042305915130870798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A rather late reply, but here it is anyway. "Dr. Nupam Mahajan" had once asked, > >I have an ancient gold coin minted by great Gupta emperor, Kumargupta >which depicts a goddess feeding a peacock. All the gupta emperors >minted coins showing Laxmi sitting on lotus. But this coin seems >to be totally different from rest of them. I have a feeling that perhaps >Kumargupta tried to mint coins showing Saraswati instead Laxmi >which many of the scholars simply considering `Laxmi feeding >peacock'. The coin can be seen at > >http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/Sgupta1.html > The generally prescribed vehicle of Sarasvati is the swan, not the peacock. The Goddess seated on a peacock should be identified as kaumArI, one of the mAtRkas. It may be significant that the coin was minted by kumAragupta. But then, how tight is the identification of the bird in the coin as a peacock? In the image, it seems to be a long-necked bird, but are there other identifying marks to call it a peacock? Vidyasankar ps. Sometimes, kaumArI is also depicted as holding a Veena in her hands, thereby coming to be identified, perhaps mistakenly, with Sarasvati. Another Goddess who holds a Veena, but is not usually identified with Sarasvati, is mAtangI. There is one famous verse describing mAtanga-kanyA as 'mANikya-vINAm upalAlayantI'. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM Tue Apr 13 00:00:53 1999 From: fritsch_archaeology at YAHOO.COM (Christina Fritsch) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 17:00:53 -0700 Subject: Rgveda: text and tradition. Message-ID: <161227048013.23782.6104302878104379121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a simple question: Is it possible/feasible to argue in relation to the Rgvedic texts, that text provided the basis for tradition rather than the other way around ? If tradition and text are viewed in relation to the historical process of production, and social forms of contextualisation, interpretation and certification then surely the Rgveda tells us more about the socio-political millieu in which it was first written down then about the situation in the protohistoric past. Therefore is it even a worthwhile exercise to look for remanents of Rgvedic culture in archaeology? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Tue Apr 13 01:38:49 1999 From: hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 18:38:49 -0700 Subject: Prof K P Aithal's eMail Address - Thanks for the help! Message-ID: <161227048015.23782.17161456735868742252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Prof Thomas Lehmann for having provided me with the eMail address of Prof K P Aithal in a quick response to my query. Sincerely, -Harihareswara Stockton, Caalifornia, USA ================== Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:40:28 +0200 From: Thomas Lehmann Subject: Re: EMail address / Contact address of Prof K.P. Athal- requested On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Shikaripura Harihareswara wrote: > eMail address or contact address of Prof K.P. Aithal of South Asia > Institute, University of Heidelberg, Germany - who has written many books. the e-mail address [ of Prof Aithal] is: b56 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de =========================================== From pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Apr 13 05:17:31 1999 From: pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (P. Cooper) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 22:17:31 -0700 Subject: Kailash mountain In-Reply-To: <19990411160616.60520.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048021.23782.11827699294494167495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > What are the earliest texts in Sanskrit talking of > Kailash in Tibet as the abode of ziva? I did some research on this question myself recently. Of course, the dating of early Sanskrit texts is very problematic, so it is probably not possible to say what text contains the earliest reference to Siva at Kailasa. Nevertheless, among the early sources I found were the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, and Kalidasa's Meghaduta. More specifically, the episode of Sagara and the descent of Ganga, from the Vana Parva of the Mahabharata, refers to Siva at Kailasa. Turning to the Ramayana, the Uttarakanda contains the famous account of the clash between Siva and Ravana at Kailasa, though many scholars deem this to be a later portion of the epic. Of course, there are many Puranic traditions that place Siva at Kailasa, but here again dating is a problem. Interestingly, many of the references to Kailasa in the epics and earlier Puranas, as well as in Kalidasa, have more to do with Kubera than with Siva. In fact, the Rudrasamhita of the Siva Purana even contains a story of how Siva moved his residence to Kailasa to be near his frien Kubera. I have more information, and specific textual references, which I would be glad to share with any who are interested in this topic. Feel free to contact me on or off the list. Regards, Paul Cooper MA program in South Asian Studies Jackson School of International Studies University of Washington pcooper at u.washington.edu From nupam at MED.UNC.EDU Tue Apr 13 03:32:38 1999 From: nupam at MED.UNC.EDU (Dr. Nupam Mahajan) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 23:32:38 -0400 Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati In-Reply-To: <19990412213711.84481.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048019.23782.13089762536484398917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The generally prescribed vehicle of Sarasvati is the swan, not the > peacock. The Goddess seated on a peacock should be identified as > kaumArI, one of the mAtRkas. It may be significant that the coin was > minted by kumAragupta. But then, how tight is the identification of > the bird in the coin as a peacock? In the image, it seems to be a > long-necked bird, but are there other identifying marks to call it a > peacock? > ps. Sometimes, kaumArI is also depicted as holding a Veena in her > hands, thereby coming to be identified, perhaps mistakenly, with > Sarasvati. Another Goddess who holds a Veena, but is not usually > identified with Sarasvati, is mAtangI. There is one famous verse > describing mAtanga-kanyA as 'mANikya-vINAm upalAlayantI'. Dear Vidyasankar, Thanks for the reply. The complete description of the coin is as follows: On obverse, king is shown wearing short sleeved coat, Dhoti, turban, earrings, necklace, armlets, wristles and trampling tiger by his right foot. He is shooting at it with his bow held in right arm, left hand drawing the string of the bow. The tiger is shown falling backwards with gaping mouth. The legends on obverse reads `Srimama Vyagrahabala Parakramaha', his majesty having the strength and valour of a tiger. The reverse show goddess, nimbate, standing, slightly bent on `makara', the crocodile, holding behind her a lotus with long stalk, in her left hand. She is shown feeding a peacock with fruit. She is wearing a sari, bodice, earrings, necklace, armlets etc. The Legends written in Brahmi reads `Kumarguptodhiraja'. Well, there is no mention of name of deity, but since goddess is standing on crocodile, many believe that she is laxmi. Of course, we have no mention of bird either on this coin which made me to consider the alternate possibility. Best wishes, Nupam Dr. Nupam Mahajan, Ph.D.,FRNS Room 230, CB#7295 Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center UNC, Chapel Hill, NC 27599, USA Fax: 919-933-5455 http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/welcome.html From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 13 11:54:45 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 04:54:45 -0700 Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati Message-ID: <161227048028.23782.14425103740724187445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< The reverse show goddess, nimbate, standing, slightly bent on `makara', the crocodile, holding behind her a lotus with long stalk, in her left hand. She is shown feeding a peacock with fruit. She is wearing a sari, bodice, earrings, necklace, armlets etc. The Legends written in Brahmi reads `Kumarguptodhiraja'. >>> When I wrote my responses in last december, I did not know Goddess is standing on makara. If so, most likely she is River Ganga. There is a small problem in identifying "a goddess feeding peacock" as KaumArI, since deities feeding their vAhanas are generally not represented in Indian art. Gods either mount their vahanas or they stand side by side. As I wrote earlier, the Goddess (now, Ganga) feeds/protects Kumaragupta (his country). May be the bounties bestowed by the perennial mighty Ganga on the flood plains of K.'s kingdom is the coin's theme. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 13 12:24:49 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 05:24:49 -0700 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048030.23782.6008701218684456513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not have Raghuvamsa with me. What is the shlokam talking of uragapura of Pandyas? Can some member tell us this please? AlavAy, the banyan tree place (Madurai Sundarezvara temple), being represented as the place of hAlahAla poison reminds of a Kalamekam poem. The poet is the best satirist who lived in the 14th century. Alam's two meanings - banyan & poison, are subtly used in a different context here. AlaG kuTiyAn2ai, AlAlam uNTAn2ai. AlaG kuTiyAn2en2Ru Arcon2n2Ar? - AlaG kuTiyAn2E Ayin2, kuvalayattOr ellAm maTiyArO maNNAkat tAn2! Alam, the first word of the poem refers to banyan in banyan village (AlaGguDi). Alam, the first word in II line, refers to hAlahAla poison drunk by Shiva. All the best, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 13 12:41:13 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 05:41:13 -0700 Subject: Kailash mountain Message-ID: <161227048031.23782.6263504187286096358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I have more information, and specific textual references, which I >would be glad to share with any who are interested in this topic. Thanks for the reply. While browsing my recent buy: R. Thurman and T. Wise, Circling the Sacred mountain: A spiritual adventure thru' the Himalayas, Bantam books, 1999, my posting came to mind. Prof. Thurman at Columbia, being an authority on Tibetan Buddhism, naturally writes from that perspective. What is your thought on uttara Ramayana and MBh. portions of Shiva and Mt. Kailash? Early centuries of the common era?? Will be interesting if you or others can write covering a wide range - "Kailash in art, thought & literature" from Sanskrit, Tamil, Hindu, Buddhism, sculpture, painting, etc., material. Nobody has done it from a chronological angle yet. With kind regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Apr 13 14:24:24 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 07:24:24 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227048035.23782.1823514220466771343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The jAtaka usage is nAlAgiri. Does IA grammar allow for this development from naLa/nala-giri? Ie., like nara -> nArAyaNa and naLa -> nALAyaNI, could the jAtaka 'nAlA-giri' can be developed from 'nala-giri'? Thanks. SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ellraven at WXS.NL Tue Apr 13 10:32:56 1999 From: ellraven at WXS.NL (Ellen M. Raven) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 10:32:56 +0000 Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati In-Reply-To: <199904130339.XAA16127@raven.med.unc.edu> Message-ID: <161227048023.23782.727373589021866972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [As this issue was on the Indology list some time ago, I run the risk of repeating earlier responses; if so, my apologies]. As to the device, of Kumaragupta I's gold coins, showing a goddess standing on a makara (which is not the same as a crocodile, but rather its mythic nephew with at least one elephant among its ancestors): quite a few sculptures in stone and terracotta from the same period show (by their context) that this deity represents not Lakshmi but the river goddess Ganga. The motif of feeding peacock is in fact familiar from several coin types of Kumaragupta I, not only the Tiger-slayer coins. It is also found on particular varieties of the Horseman Type, and on the rare Elephantrider-Lionslayer Type. It seems like an additional device, a variation of the usual device of goddess on reverse holding attributes. Instead of holding something (a diadem fillet) or distributing coins, she feeds a peacock. It is unlikely that the peacock was ever intended as an identifying attribute for the goddess. That the bird is indeed a peacock is quite clear from those designs for these coins (they come in many dies), where you can still clearly see the tuft feathers on the crown of the bird's head, and/or its raised tail, sometimes also with distinctly drawn peacock feathers (so-called fan-tailed peacock sub-variety, see catalogue of the Bharat Kala Bhavan collection no. 163). In most coins the tail feathers are off the flan. The particular interest, especially in Kumaragupta's reign, in coin devices with a peacock (sometimes with the king, sometimes with the goddess, sometimes as vehicle of Karttikeya) is indeed a striking phenomenon which deserves its own comments. With regards, Ellen Raven IIAS/Kern Institute, Leiden University > Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:32:38 -0400 > Reply-to: Indology > From: "Dr. Nupam Mahajan" > Subject: Re: Laxmi & Saraswati > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > The generally prescribed vehicle of Sarasvati is the swan, not the > > peacock. The Goddess seated on a peacock should be identified as > > kaumArI, one of the mAtRkas. It may be significant that the coin was > > minted by kumAragupta. But then, how tight is the identification of > > the bird in the coin as a peacock? In the image, it seems to be a > > long-necked bird, but are there other identifying marks to call it a > > peacock? > > ps. Sometimes, kaumArI is also depicted as holding a Veena in her > > hands, thereby coming to be identified, perhaps mistakenly, with > > Sarasvati. Another Goddess who holds a Veena, but is not usually > > identified with Sarasvati, is mAtangI. There is one famous verse > > describing mAtanga-kanyA as 'mANikya-vINAm upalAlayantI'. > > Dear Vidyasankar, > > Thanks for the reply. The complete description of the coin is as follows: > > On obverse, king is shown wearing short sleeved coat, Dhoti, turban, > earrings, necklace, armlets, wristles and trampling tiger by his right > foot. He is shooting at it with his bow held in right arm, left hand > drawing the string of the bow. The tiger is shown falling backwards with > gaping mouth. The legends on obverse reads `Srimama Vyagrahabala Parakramaha', > his majesty having the strength and valour of a tiger. > > The reverse show goddess, nimbate, standing, slightly bent on `makara', > the crocodile, holding behind her a lotus with long stalk, in her left hand. > She is shown feeding a peacock with fruit. She is wearing a sari, bodice, > earrings, necklace, armlets etc. The Legends written in Brahmi reads > `Kumarguptodhiraja'. > > Well, there is no mention of name of deity, but since goddess is standing > on crocodile, many believe that she is laxmi. Of course, we have no mention > of bird either on this coin which made me to consider the alternate > possibility. > > Best wishes, > > Nupam > > > Dr. Nupam Mahajan, Ph.D.,FRNS > Room 230, CB#7295 > Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center > UNC, Chapel Hill, NC 27599, USA > > Fax: 919-933-5455 > http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/welcome.html > From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Tue Apr 13 10:02:20 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 12:02:20 +0200 Subject: Kailash mountain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048026.23782.12413866056641032978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A 22:17 12/04/99 -0700, pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU a ?crit : >..... Interestingly, many of the references >to Kailasa in the epics and earlier Puranas, as well as in Kalidasa, have >more to do with Kubera than with Siva. In fact, the Rudrasamhita of the >Siva Purana even contains a story of how Siva moved his residence to >Kailasa to be near his frien Kubera. I have been wondering on the connection between Siva and Kubera (inside both Classical Tamil texts and later texts). This might be the occasion for somebody to give more light. In Akam (??not later than 300 A.D.??), we seem to have a reference to Kubera mAniti kizhavan2 pOn2m... (poem 66, line 17) "looking like the god of wealth himself" (Trad. HART, 1979, p.112) But later, inside Tevaram (7th cent.?), we meet with the expression "nitiyin2 kizhavan2ai" (V-3, verse 6) that seems to refer to Siva himself mentionned as "the chief of the treasure-hoard". Did Siva absorb his friends' attribute? Another interesting occurence is inside the commentary on iRaiyan2Ar akapporuL (8th cent.?), where we see Siva and Kubera (nitiyin2 kizhavan2) belonging together to the First Academy (along with Murugan and Agastya) (see Buck & Paramasivan, 1997, The Study of Stolen Love, p.5) -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 13 21:04:17 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 14:04:17 -0700 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048042.23782.11999859154135784605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ferenc, >I think there is only Chinese (also Corean and Japanese) Buddhist tradition >on the point; a detailed account with the relevant passages translated (into >French) can be found in >M. J. Takakusu: La sAMkhyakArikA etudiee a la lumiere de sa version >chinoise. in: Bulletin de l'Ecole Francaise d'Extreme-Orient. Tome IV., >1904. pp. 1-65 & 978-1063, esp. pp. 37-49. With my level of proficiency in French, I doubt if I'll make much headway with that :-) Anyway thanks for the reference. >The identification of kAlidAsa with IZvarakRSNa seems to me impossible; but >I am rather interested as to its source. In paramArtha's _The Life of >vasubandhu_ it is said that the king who gave 3 lacs of gold for the triumph >to the author of the 70 sAMkhya verses was vikramAditya; so this could have >been the source of the confusion. Why should that be a source of confusion? Wasn't KAlidhAsa one of the nine jewels in the court of VikramAditya (Chandragupta II ?)? If the identification is indeed wrong, isn't it strange that such a famous exponent of a leading school of philosophy, has no other references in Indian literature? But KAlidhAsa's frequent use of the concept of Shiva (Being) and Shakti (Creative power) in his works, seem to mark him more as a VedAntin than a SAmkhyan. Could others with knowledge of KAlidhAsa's world view, throw more light on this? Rgds, Nanda _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Apr 13 21:32:10 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 14:32:10 -0700 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048046.23782.17479873763117177929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > But KAlidhAsa's frequent use of the concept of Shiva (Being) and > Shakti (Creative power) in his works, seem to mark him more as a > VedAntin than a SAmkhyan. Kalidasa's name does not sound brahminical. He might not have had modern Smarta worldview. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From lengqie at GMX.NET Tue Apr 13 14:10:48 1999 From: lengqie at GMX.NET (Petr Mares) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 16:10:48 +0200 Subject: kezoNDuka Message-ID: <161227048033.23782.9314720388805173086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear coleagues Doe anybody know what experience exactly term: "kezoNDuka" describes. Boehtlingk says: "ringf?rmige lichterscheinungen vor geschlossenen augen" i.e. "circular optical phenomena before closed eyes" Monier says:: "m. a sling or knot of hair, suzr.; net-like apparitions seen while the eyes are shut, aitAr". Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dict. cites Boehtlingk without even translating it to English and criticizes Suzuki's rendering "hair-net" Chinese either translate it as chiu2fa4 which is probably misunderstanding or mao2lun2 which is literal but does not tell me about the experience I can relate it to. Can anybody tell me where this term came from or what phenomena it is in detail? Thank You Sincerely Petr Mares Petr Mares, Lengqie Research Hlavacova 1163, Prague 8, PSC 182 00, Czech Republic Fax:420-2-2423-9157, Tel: 420-2-2422-9755 email: lengqie at gmx.net From kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Apr 13 20:12:21 1999 From: kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Kevin McGrath) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 16:12:21 -0400 Subject: Thuggee In-Reply-To: <199904131559.RAA15062@bednorz.get2net.dk> Message-ID: <161227048040.23782.13928846629117798678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Philip Meadows Taylor: Confessions Of A Thug. (1839) OUP, 1998. On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, dorrit Wagner wrote: > I am currently collecting material for a Ph.D.-thesis on the subject of > Thuggee (a.k.a Thug, Thagi or Phansigars) the Kali-worshipping strangler > sect. I would therefore be very thankful if anybody has any kind of > information on these matters, any booktitles or references, British or > Indian. I am interested in practically all aspects of the sect and in Kali > worship in a broader context. Thank you very much > > Sincerely > > Kim Wagner > From dorwag at GET2NET.DK Tue Apr 13 15:47:32 1999 From: dorwag at GET2NET.DK (dorrit Wagner) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 17:47:32 +0200 Subject: Thuggee Message-ID: <161227048037.23782.11846643112237732197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am currently collecting material for a Ph.D.-thesis on the subject of Thuggee (a.k.a Thug, Thagi or Phansigars) the Kali-worshipping strangler sect. I would therefore be very thankful if anybody has any kind of information on these matters, any booktitles or references, British or Indian. I am interested in practically all aspects of the sect and in Kali worship in a broader context. Thank you very much Sincerely Kim Wagner From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 13 23:51:08 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 19:51:08 -0400 Subject: Bhakti etc. Message-ID: <161227048050.23782.9187522572806897369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Yarroslav was looking for etymologies of the word "bhakti" and I came across these notes on the etymology by the late Dr. J. A. B. van Buitenen in "The Bhagavadgita in the Mahabharata" from the University of Chicago press 1981, ISBN 0-226-84660-1 or ISBN 0-226-84662-8 paperback. page 24. (I am paraphrasing because I'm not sure about the copyright issues involved in directly quoting from copyrighted works. Perhaps someone could clarify what the issues are in making direct quotes to the Indology list). Prof. van Buitenen brings up the following points. 1) bhakti is an action noun derived from the root "bhaj". 2) the meaning of sharing is central to this root. 3) meanings developed in two directions. a) offering someone else a share in something. b) accepting or adopting something as one's allotted share. 4) meaning 3b above evolving into "declaring for", "choosing for". 5) This last meaning governing later uses of the word "bhakti". 6) the word bhakti not confined to religious usage. 7) occurs in non religious contexts in the Mahabharata and as late as vizAkhadatta's play mudrArAkSa. 8) The basic connotation is that of loyalty (opp. of disaffection) 9) The same root used to for a man and a woman choosing each other carnally. 10) The notion of a loyal choice persisting in the above. Harry Spier _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Apr 13 20:12:11 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 00:12:11 +0400 Subject: Thuggee Message-ID: <161227048044.23782.2746485129368652146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See Indology archives for 3-9 Dec. 1998. You will find a lot of information on Thuggees there. Yaroslav Vassilkov From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Apr 14 03:09:28 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 03:09:28 +0000 Subject: New mailing list for Indian studies Message-ID: <161227048048.23782.719172582736486490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Indology members may be interested in viewing the archive of and participating in a new, unmoderated mailing list on Indian languages, archaeology and culture. http://sarasvati.listbot.com Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 14 11:34:28 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 04:34:28 -0700 Subject: Statue of the sacrificial horse Message-ID: <161227048053.23782.614024765911354703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<>> Dear Prof. Vassilkov, I am sure you know of the full life-size horse of the asvamedha ritual from Guptan period. For a nice picture, see: p. 3, K. Khandalavala, The Golden age, Gupta art - empire, province and influence, Marg. The Khairigarh horse was thought to be from Samudragupta, now ascribed to Kumaragupta I, 5th c. AD, 1.56 X 2.4 m. Lucknow museum, Buff sandstone. There are some royal sacrifice scenes from the seventh century Pallava temple dedicated to VaikuNTapperumAL at Kanchipuram. Do they have horses tied to the pillars?, may be Pallava art experts (Dr. Rabe) can tell us. Of course, all over India we have many coins from different dynasties depicting asvamedha horses. Also, T. K. Biswas, Horse in early Indian art, Manohar:Delhi, 1987. Greetings, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Apr 14 13:54:05 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 06:54:05 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227048057.23782.13516439046387705028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > the tradition does not derive naaraaya.na from nara-. It derives >the word naaraaya.na from the word naaraa (f. 'water', cf. >aapo naaraa iti proktaa.h) by adding ayana. Vishnu sleeps usually in the Ocean of Milk, how do we reconcile this? > Also the meaning 'black' for nala- is not known in its Sanskrit > usage. Is it because nala is a Dravidian word not understood in IA? They might have taken it as reed. But hard to explain nAlAgiri with reeds. In A.P., nalla ( *> Also the meaning 'black' for nala- is not known in its *> Sanskrit usage. >Is it because nala is a Dravidian word not understood in IA? >They might have taken it as reed. But hard to explain nAlAgiri with > reeds.I n A.P., nalla ( there from which River Krishna flows. Tamil Perungkathai has an > elephant called naLagiri. What is striking is that the nALAgiri of jAtaka stories is rendered in Tamil Perungathai (7th century?) as naLagiri. If naa.laa = reed is what is meant for naa.laagiri, the 7th c. author could have used naa.lagiri. Because 'naaLam' in tamil lit. means hollow stalk as that of a lotus, reed, etc., Interestingly, in tamil, naalaagiri becomes naLagiri even though naaLagiri is equally admissible. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Apr 14 13:08:48 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 09:08:48 -0400 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048055.23782.4288957827900075334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some clarification on nara -> nArAyaNa may be useful. While such a derivation of the word nArAyaNa from nara- may be theoretically possible, cf. dak.sa -> daak.saaya.na, the tradition does not derive naaraaya.na from nara-. It derives the word naaraaya.na from the word naaraa (f. 'water', cf. aapo naaraa iti proktaa.h) by adding ayana. While the derivation of nALAyaNI from naLa, on the face of it, may be similar to the derivation of daak.saaya.nii from dak.sa, the derivation of naa.laa in naa.laagiri from na.la does not seem so straight forward. Also the meaning 'black' for nala- is not known in its Sanskrit usage. Sorry for using different notations for diacritics. Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Georg von Simson wrote: > Swaminathan Madhuresan asked: > >The jAtaka usage is nAlAgiri. Does IA grammar allow > >for this development from naLa/nala-giri? > >Ie., like nara -> nArAyaNa and naLa -> nALAyaNI, > >could the jAtaka 'nAlA-giri' can be developed from 'nala-giri'? > > There is no such direct way from nala-giri to nAlAgiri. This latter form of > the name seems to presuppose a feminine nAlA, known by some sanskrit > lexicographers beside nAlI with the meaning "hollow stalk", "reed". > From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 14 16:13:49 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 09:13:49 -0700 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048065.23782.16990738580594473393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Kalidasa's name does not sound brahminical. He might not >have had modern Smarta worldview. KAli's DhAsa is KAlidhAsa. I don't think there's any reference to his real name anywhere, from which one could deduce whether he was a smArtha or not. And VedAnta can hardly be restricted to smArthas alone. But that he was a brAhmana, there's little doubt, when one reads his works. He is all for the varnAshrama dharma. Wasn't he the one who said, "Born a brAhmana, initiated a dvija, having learnt the shruti (VedA) - a shrotraya, and when vibrating with knowledge - a viprata." _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Apr 14 16:47:32 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 09:47:32 -0700 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048067.23782.7748775258497487371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Isn't it strange that such a famous exponent of a leading school > >of philosophy, has no other references in Indian literature? > > No, it's not: it is the rule. As a matter of fact we don't really *know* > anything about kAlidAsa himself. The name kAlidAsa, that too in that early age, is not a name typically sported by brahmins. Is it certain that kAlidAsa is a brahmin? Sankara and Ramanuja are also not occuring inscriptions. In direct contrast to 1000s of lady donors of 1 or 2 goats to a temple X. The Western obsession with identity is different compared to Indian mode of life. We have huge temples, art masterpieces, entire kAvyas, But we can't say who produced them. Is it because Indians valued what is said much more than who said it? SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Apr 14 09:28:34 1999 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 10:28:34 +0100 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri In-Reply-To: <19990413142424.14540.rocketmail@send304.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227048051.23782.14893353995464364877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan asked: >The jAtaka usage is nAlAgiri. Does IA grammar allow >for this development from naLa/nala-giri? >Ie., like nara -> nArAyaNa and naLa -> nALAyaNI, >could the jAtaka 'nAlA-giri' can be developed from 'nala-giri'? There is no such direct way from nala-giri to nAlAgiri. This latter form of the name seems to presuppose a feminine nAlA, known by some sanskrit lexicographers beside nAlI with the meaning "hollow stalk", "reed". From nupam at MED.UNC.EDU Wed Apr 14 16:10:00 1999 From: nupam at MED.UNC.EDU (Dr. Nupam Mahajan) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 12:10:00 -0400 Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati In-Reply-To: <7726F31CC84.AAB262A@smtp04.wxs.nl> Message-ID: <161227048063.23782.12351063554342665019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > As to the device, of Kumaragupta I's gold coins, showing a > goddess standing on a makara (which is not the same as a crocodile, > but rather its mythic nephew with at least one elephant among its > ancestors): quite a few sculptures in stone and terracotta from the Let me thank Drs. Vidyasankar and Ganesan for bringing up this topic and of course Ellen, who knew it all along (I missed her earlier response). Ellen, my coin (shown on webpage) does not have Makara visible, it almost entirely out of flan. Can you tell me a reference where a photograph of coin is shown and atleast a part of Makara is visible? Alternately, if you have any such photograph, I would be glad to receive a copy of it. Best wishes, Nupam Dr. Nupam Mahajan, Ph.D.,FRNS Room 230, CB#7295 Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center UNC, Chapel Hill, NC 27599, USA Fax: 919-933-5455 http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/welcome.html From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Apr 14 17:37:04 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 13:37:04 -0400 Subject: Thugs in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048069.23782.13823719369973814880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Here is an interesting discussion of Thugs in India. I just purchased a fascinating book by Stewart Gordon: Marathas, Marauders, and the State formation in Eighteenth-Century India, Oxford India Paperbacks, 1998 (originally published in 1994 by OUP). The first chapter of this book deals with Thugs: "Scarf and Sword: Thugs, Marauders, and State-formation in Eighteenth-Century Malwa". Best, Madhav Deshpande From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Wed Apr 14 13:12:10 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 15:12:10 +0200 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048061.23782.15529081171456581026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: >>M. J. Takakusu: La sAMkhyakArikA etudiee a la lumiere de sa version >>chinoise. in: Bulletin de l'Ecole Francaise d'Extreme-Orient. Tome IV., >>1904. pp. 1-65 & 978-1063, esp. pp. 37-49. > >With my level of proficiency in French, I doubt if I'll make much >headway with that :-) Anyway thanks for the reference. Dear Nanda, according to Karl H. Potter's Bibliography (in Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies, Vol. I) there is an English translation by S. Suryanarayana Sastri that appeared in: Madras University Department of Indian Philosophy Publication 1 (1933), and also: Journal of the Madras University 4 (1932), Supplement; 5 (1933) pp. 81-114 >Isn't it strange that such a famous exponent of a leading school >of philosophy, has no other references in Indian literature? No, it's not: it is the rule. As a matter of fact we don't really *know* anything about kAlidAsa himself. Yours, Ferenc From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 15 01:21:40 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 18:21:40 -0700 Subject: ziva in vedas Message-ID: <161227048077.23782.15146977464994424671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "..... in the later mythology the word %{ziva} , which does not occur as a %{name} in the Veda ,..........". May be useful: the Indology thread, Proto-Siva in Nov. & Dec. 1996, esp. Prof. Witzel's. Also, Prof. Simson on siva and avalokitezvara on 16 dec 98. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From thompson at JLC.NET Wed Apr 14 23:16:05 1999 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 19:16:05 -0400 Subject: Rgveda: text and tradition. In-Reply-To: <19990413000053.26976.rocketmail@web121.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227048072.23782.8923513223488160106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:00 PM 4/12/1999 -0700, you wrote: >I have a simple question: > >Is it possible/feasible to argue in relation to the Rgvedic texts, >that text provided the basis for tradition rather than the other way >around ? If tradition and text are viewed in relation to the >historical process of production, and social forms of >contextualisation, interpretation and certification then surely the >Rgveda tells us more about the socio-political millieu in which it was >first written down then about the situation in the protohistoric past. > Therefore is it even a worthwhile exercise to look for remanents of >Rgvedic culture in archaeology? > Well, this does not *look* like a simple question to me. In my view what we have as direct evidence is simply the text of the RV itself. We do not have direct access to this "tradition" that you refer to, nor to "the historical process of production, and social forms of contextualisation, interpretation and certification." These, and the socio-political milieu in general, are things that we can only infer, only with great difficulty, and only from the text itself. Of course, this situation makes correlations with archaeological data difficult, but the exercise would seem worthwhile if undertaken by someone with these difficulties well in mind. As for the part of your question dealing with the relation between text and tradition, this is complicated too, and I am unable to see how one might determine a unidirectional relation between the two. Have I understood your question properly? GT From thompson at JLC.NET Wed Apr 14 23:17:24 1999 From: thompson at JLC.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 19:17:24 -0400 Subject: ziva in vedas In-Reply-To: <9130EFB0684CD211869E0020484016B501C4C15E@satlmsgusr07.delt a-air.com> Message-ID: <161227048075.23782.10492717941983586330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:46 PM 4/14/1999 -0400, you wrote: >I had buried this question in a different thread. >Apologies if I am repeating it but thought worth doing so >as the statement from the Lexicon is intriguing. > >I checked the Colgne Digial Sansrit Lexicon at >http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/mwd_search.html > >for the entry "rudra" and got the following: >"..... >in the later mythology the word %{ziva} , which does not occur as a %{name} >in the Veda ,..........". > >Is this supposed to be taken to mean that the word >"ziva" does not occur in the vedas at all? > >Thanks, >Chandra > > In the RV the word *ziva'* occurs about fifty times, primarily as an adjective, occasionally as a substantive. As an adjective it is applied to many gods: not only to Rudra, but also to Agni, Indra, Mitra, VAyu and PUSan. It appears in the dual modifying DyAvApRthivI. In the feminine plural it modifies unnamed goddesses of the rivers. Not just gods but friends in general are said to be *ziva*, as are helpers, guests, messengers and protectors also. There is no instance of *ziva'* as a proper name 'Shiva'. George Thompson From cheapies at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM Thu Apr 15 09:27:06 1999 From: cheapies at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 03:27:06 -0600 Subject: lila Message-ID: <161227048080.23782.14017821687536168965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can one speak of Shiva's "lila" in the sense, for example, that he may be found at play or sport with his troop of ganas? I generally think of this term applying only to Krishna. Perhaps there is a more appropriate term for Shiva and his ganas in this regard? Any ideas? I did find reference to Shiva's "Svatantrya" in regards to his playful attitude towards bondage and moksha as found in the Saivagamas, however, this does not seem to be quite comparable to the antics and mischiveous behavior of this god and his playmates. Thanks Benjy Fleming From cheapies at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM Thu Apr 15 10:01:30 1999 From: cheapies at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 04:01:30 -0600 Subject: sacrificial posts Message-ID: <161227048082.23782.18002952892899925959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Kurma Purana there is a description of the destruction of Daksha's Sacrifice by the ganas of Shiva. "The leader of the ganas set fire to the sacrificial enclosure while the furious gana lords tore up the sacrificial posts and threw them away." What might the "posts" be in this sacrificial scene? The translation is by Cornelia Dimmitt and J.A.B. van Buitenen [Classical Hindu Mythology, A Reader in the Sanskrit Puranas. Temple U.P. pp 77] Thanks Benjy Fleming From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 15 11:29:29 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 04:29:29 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227048090.23782.17637286111780308009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My heartfelt thanks for scholars telling the description of the elephant in the Crab jAtaka (#267). What is the name and description of the elephant there?. Does nala/naLa or naalaa/naaLaa figuring there? My friend, Sri. M. G. Srinivasan, who worked for decades at Fermi National Labs and now settled in Srirangam to see Ranganathasvami daily, wrote this. << Just happened to be reading a Jataka tale, the Crab Jataka (#267). In describing an elephant (an incarnation of Bodhisatta) the English translation reads, " he was like a purple mountain of collyrium." I wonder why 'purple' and not 'black'? Too bad I am ignorant of Pali, the language of the original Jataka tales. Perhaps there were Sanskrit versions of these stories too. I have been translating some of these stories from English to Tamil. That is like journeying form Tiruchy to Benares via London. Occasionally it is possibe to guess the original construction, but not so for the most part. >> Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Apr 15 14:40:30 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 07:40:30 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227048092.23782.2737952985717289956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Deshpande wrote: > Some clarification on nara -> nArAyaNa may be useful. While such >a derivation of the word nArAyaNa from nara- may be theoretically >possible, cf. dak.sa -> daak.saaya.na, the tradition does not derive >naaraaya.na from nara-. It derives the word naaraaya.na from the word >naaraa (f. 'water', cf. aapo naaraa iti proktaa.h) by adding ayana. Vishnu sleeps usually in the Ocean of Milk, how do we reconcile this? Since nara -> nArAyaNa is allowed and is quite possible, can we propose a hypothesis: nala -> nara -> nArAyaNa. Sanskrit lacks retroflex L (.l). Dravidian naLa (black) becomes nala in Sanskrit. Vishnu is known for his black color always (so, are his avatars, Ram and Krishna). 'l' to 'r' changes are fairly common in Sanskrit. For example, Ta. ciRRampalam (pronounced as cittambalam, citrambalam) becomes citambaram. Note: Ta. 'ambalam' transforming to 'ambara'. Summary: Dravidian naLa (black) -> nala -> nara -> nArAyaNa. Once this process was complete and forgotten, philosophical explanations using nara and naaraa could have arisen afterwards. Sanskritists can look for words with nala/nAla/nAlA/nara/nAra/nArA/ ... and tell us more. SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Thu Apr 15 05:08:16 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 09:08:16 +0400 Subject: Bhakti etc. Message-ID: <161227048078.23782.9913435496146325212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Harry Spier (I overlooked van Buitenen's note) and Mikhael Witzel (I have Minoru Hara's article; will you kindly check about Hacker?). I have found very useful information on *bhagavat* and related words in: E. Washburn Hopkins. The Epic Use of bhagavat and bhakti. JRAS, 1911, pt. 2, pp. 727-738 (exhaustive and especially important), M.Dhavamony. Love of God according to Saiva Siddhanta. Oxford, 1971 (esp. pp. 13-14), The Bhagavad-Gita with a commentary based on the original sources by R.C.Zaehner. Oxford Un. Press, 1969, p. 181 (the analysis of the semantics of bhaj- and bhakti was done for R.C.Zaehner by Fr.M Dhavamony). Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov ______________________________ Yaroslav V.Vassilkov, Ph.D. Department of South and SE Asian Studies Institute of Oriental Studies Dvortsovaya nab., 18, St Petersburg, 191186, Russia Home address: Fontanka, 2, kv. 617, St Petersburg, 191187, Russia tel. +7 (812) 275 8179 e-mail: yavass at YV1041.spb.edu vassilkov at hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 15 16:44:07 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 09:44:07 -0700 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048093.23782.894842894987397376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >according to Karl H. Potter's Bibliography (in Encyclopedia of Indian >Philosophies, Vol. I) there is an English translation by S. >Suryanarayana >Sastri that appeared in: Madras University Department of Indian >Philosophy >Publication 1 (1933), and also: Journal of the Madras University 4 >(1932), >Supplement; 5 (1933) pp. 81-114 Yes, SuryanArAyana Shastri's work is a classic, but not very easy to find. There's another translation by the RAmakrishna Matham, which is of very good quality too. And it can be had at a throwaway price. >Isn't it strange that such a famous exponent of a leading school >of philosophy, has no other references in Indian literature? >No, it's not: it is the rule. As a matter of fact we don't really >*know* anything about kAlidAsa himself. KAlidhAsa never declares in his works that his name is KAlidhAsa. He just stresses that he is a great devotee of Goddess KAli. It's from later poets who laud his works and refer to the author as KAlidhAsa, that the name KAlidhAsa has become connected to those fabled works of poetry and drama. Tradition identifies him as a brAhmana. His high level of proficiency in Samskrutam and its grammar, also reveals a formal education traditionally available to brAhmanas. Plus his knowledge of the shruti and VedAnta which is reflected in his works, also points to a brAhmanical origin. The cementing factor would be his strong vocal support to the varnAshrama dharma and brAhmanism in general, which would be quite unlikely if he were of non-brAhmanic origin. And there's little reason to state that KAli worship is outsite the pale of brAhmanism. BrAhmanas with their assimilative tendency, have been part of nearly every form of worship prevalent in BhArath. Many of the NyAya and Vaishesika philosophers were Shaktas and Pashupatas. ShankarAcharya is generally identified as a Shaivite. The BrAhmanic presence in the Vaishnava fold is also famous. RAmakrishna Paramahamsa was himself a great devotee of KAli. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Apr 15 17:42:35 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 10:42:35 -0700 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048095.23782.2159027600771317039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Given that even the Great Goddess, benign and peaceful, has not established Herself in 3-4th centuries A.D. within the Sanskrit orthodoxy and the Rise of the Goddess in the Hindu tradition manifests fully only after few centuries, a `devotee of Kali' is an intersting name. In Tamil literature, hundreds of works by non-brahmins are available praising varnashrama system. May be a lip service to suit the All India pattern. Praising varnashrama alone does not point to brahminship, I guess. SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Apr 15 17:54:38 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 10:54:38 -0700 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048097.23782.2513185492843036902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > And there's little reason to state that KAli worship is outsite the > pale of brAhmanism. Kali worship among brahmins in first centuries?? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA Thu Apr 15 09:35:11 1999 From: kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA (Prof P Kumar) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 11:35:11 +0200 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227048086.23782.17980161751556043019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan asked: >The jAtaka usage is nAlAgiri. Does IA grammar allow >for this development from naLa/nala-giri? >Ie., like nara -> nArAyaNa and naLa -> nALAyaNI, >could the jAtaka 'nAlA-giri' can be developed from 'nala-giri'? There is no such direct way from nala-giri to nAlAgiri. This latter form of the name seems to presuppose a feminine nAlA, known by some sanskrit lexicographers beside nAlI with the meaning "hollow stalk", "reed". Prof. P. Kumar (Head of Dept) Department of Science of Religion University of Durban-Westivlle Private BagX54001 Durban 4000 South Africa Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work) Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work) Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Director of the 18th Quinquennial Congress of the IAHR Durban- August 5-12 2000 For more info on the Congress please see: http://www.udw.ac.za/iahr From kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA Thu Apr 15 09:35:14 1999 From: kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA (Prof P Kumar) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 11:35:14 +0200 Subject: Statue of the sacrificial horse Message-ID: <161227048084.23782.15669881021089432167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<>> Dear Prof. Vassilkov, I am sure you know of the full life-size horse of the asvamedha ritual from Guptan period. For a nice picture, see: p. 3, K. Khandalavala, The Golden age, Gupta art - empire, province and influence, Marg. The Khairigarh horse was thought to be from Samudragupta, now ascribed to Kumaragupta I, 5th c. AD, 1.56 X 2.4 m. Lucknow museum, Buff sandstone. There are some royal sacrifice scenes from the seventh century Pallava temple dedicated to VaikuNTapperumAL at Kanchipuram. Do they have horses tied to the pillars?, may be Pallava art experts (Dr. Rabe) can tell us. Of course, all over India we have many coins from different dynasties depicting asvamedha horses. Also, T. K. Biswas, Horse in early Indian art, Manohar:Delhi, 1987. Greetings, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Prof. P. Kumar (Head of Dept) Department of Science of Religion University of Durban-Westivlle Private BagX54001 Durban 4000 South Africa Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work) Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work) Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Director of the 18th Quinquennial Congress of the IAHR Durban- August 5-12 2000 For more info on the Congress please see: http://www.udw.ac.za/iahr From Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Thu Apr 15 11:02:16 1999 From: Toru.Tomabechi at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Toru Tomabechi) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 13:02:16 +0200 Subject: IABS Conference/Paper Abstracts Message-ID: <161227048088.23782.3261636926826870564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, Recently we have been receiving more and more panicky messages concerning the deadline for submitting abstracts for the Conference of the International Association of Buddhist Studies in Lausanne (Aug. 23-28). We had earlier specified Apr. 15 as the deadline for the abstracts -- this seems to have had a stimulating effect. We would like to inform you now that we will still be accepting abstracts for a *few* weeks. Best, Toru Tomabechi, Secretary The XIIth IABS Conference University of Lausanne From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 15 20:54:21 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 13:54:21 -0700 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048098.23782.7469541353452085357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Isn't it strange that such a famous exponent of a leading school > >of philosophy, has no other references in Indian literature? > > No, it's not: it is the rule. As a matter of fact we don't really *know* > anything about kAlidAsa himself. I'm sorry I missed this in my earlier reply. Ferenc, are you correct in saying that missing references are a rule in Indian literature? It is true that information is scant with regard to dating. Sometimes even personal information is missing. But that doesn't mean that there are no references at all. Information can be gathered about a particular work or its author, from other works. For Eg KAlidhAsa makes a comment about the Bauddha logician DignAga. And information to other sources point to DharmakIrti being the disciple of DignAga. ShankarAcharya makes a remark about DharmakIrti in his Upadesha SAhasri. He we can logically deduce that DignAga was either a earlier contemporary or a peer of KAlidhAsa. DharmakIrti would have been a peer of KAlidhAsa or probably come later than the poet. And ShankarAcharya would have definitely come after DharmakIrti. It's in this way that I find it strange that no mention of Ishvara Krishna occurs anywhere (Am I right in this?). Most of the great poets or philosophers, generally find mention in some later work, either of their opponents or their followers. Probably the later SAmkhyan works of VijnAnabhikshu might contain some reference to the philosopher. But even that might not warrant much, as a millineum seperates them. Probably SAmkhya works between Ishvara Krishna and VijnAnabhikshu might be able to throw more light on the author of the SAmkhya KArikAs. And since VAsubandhu is reputed to have been the guru of DignAga, it's possible that KAlidhAsa may have been the contemporary of VAsubandhu or his guru, and thus the claim to the singular identity of KAlidhAsa and Ishvara Krishna. One thing to be noted is the relation between the sishya and the guru, need not necessarily mean one of generation ie even a person of the same age or slightly older one or even somebody younger, could have been a guru of another. I still think the best argument would come out of a difference in their world views - as one inclines towards SAmkhya and the other towards VedAnta. But again this may not mean much as a logical development of SAmkhya with the aid of the shruti would lead to VedAnta. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 15 21:56:14 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 14:56:14 -0700 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048100.23782.9542184611238224960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote - >Information can be gathered about a particular work or its author, >from other works. For Eg KAlidhAsa makes a comment about the Bauddha >logician DignAga. And information to other sources point to >DharmakIrti being the disciple of DignAga. ShankarAcharya makes a >remark about DharmakIrti in his Upadesha SAhasri. > >He we can logically deduce that DignAga was either a >earlier contemporary or a peer of KAlidhAsa. DharmakIrti would have >been a peer of KAlidhAsa or probably come later than the poet. And >ShankarAcharya would have definitely come after DharmakIrti. Yes, but the situation is quite complicated. If an author is quoted by name, it is quite the exception, not the rule. For example, Sankaracharya does not tell us that a particular verse is a quotation from Dharmakirti. It is Suresvara who tells us that it is "Dharmakirti-vacanam" which is confirmed from Dharmakirti's Pramana-lakshana. In most other cases, we are left with the laconic "kecit vadanti" or "ity apare". Or else, a particular position is stated without attributing it to a person, and then commented upon. Vast sections of Suresvara's Varttikas are devoted to refuting one unnamed pre-Sankaran Vedantin. It is usually assumed by all these authors that the audience is thoroughly familiar with the earlier literature so as to be able to trace these quotations without difficulty. Even within a particular philosophical tradition, it is difficult to trace down quotations and attributions. Sankaracharya refers once to Gaudapada as a sampradaya-vit, and quotes from the Mandukya Karikas. However, there is no guarantee that all Sankara's attributions to a sampradaya-vit refer to Gaudapada's works. In Bhagavad Gita Bhashya 13.13, there one such statement that is labeled a sampradAya-vidAm vacanam, but which is not to be found in Gaudapada's Karikas. In fact, this particular quotation (adhyAropa-apavAdAbhyAm nishprapancam prapancyate) can be found only in the text named Panchikarana, which is attributed to Sankara himself. For later authors, Sankara is simply a Bhashyakara, Suresvara is simply a Varttikakara, Anandagiri is simply a Tikakara. Thus, if Isvarakrishna is not mentioned by name, it is quite unremarkable. One has to sift through the entire Samkhyan literature, and *not* find any quotations from the Samkhyakarikas, in order to say that there is "no mention" of Isvarakrishna anywhere. Which is rather far-fetched. You might want to read Esther Solomon's works or the volume on Samkhya in the Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies for detailed discussions. In any case, where is the crying need to equate Kalidasa with Isvarakrishna? Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 11:56:28 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 04:56:28 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227048105.23782.5760477413925301243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Like Dr. Deshpande, I agree that tradition derives narayana from nArA (water). However, additionally, we have an old tradition where nara and nArAyana are told. The nara-narayana legend, the great yogis from whose thigh Urvasi was born. Have seen Gupta era friezes where two men sit underneath a tree, they are generally thought to be nara and narayana. V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 11:58:30 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 04:58:30 -0700 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227048107.23782.12496971611654829225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> << Quite interestingly, the PED notes two instances when aGjana is used in the meaning of 'ointment-tube, collyrium-box' (aGjana=aGjana-nALi - TherIgAthA 413, Dhammapada-aTThakathA II.25). Was also nALI/i ('a hollow stalk, tube, pipe') used to mean 'ointment-tube, collyrium-box'? With its suggestion of blackness? >> Some reeds and stalks are black in color, esp. inside. Could nALi refer to such black stalks? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 13:17:42 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 06:17:42 -0700 Subject: Kalidasa's date Message-ID: <161227048109.23782.13251131844662844446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While browsing Dr. Koenraad Elst's paper on Indian astronomy, kindly provided by Dr. S. Kalyanaraman, Elst argues for pushing back Kalidasa's date by about 5 centuries. Elst also talking of putting back Gupta age by few centuries, the available material may not allow that. I have heard that Kalidasa could not have come after Asvaghosha's works. Does Kalidas quote Dinnaga? Is Dinnaga late, too late for Kalidasa? What is the "standard" academic date of Kalidasa and Dignaga? Is it so hard to narrow down Kalidasa's date to within one/two centuries, rather than 7-8 centuries? Many thanks, N. Ganesan PS: Not only Kalidasa is radical by name, he also brings Southern poetic traditions into full flowering in Sanskrit. George Hart's thesis and book: Realations bet. IA and Dravidian literatures says that Tamil sangam poetry traditions and Hala's saptasati are the first love poems in India. This poetics describing love situations, first available from the Dravidian South, is used effectively by the great Kalidasa. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Apr 16 15:03:40 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 08:03:40 -0700 Subject: Kalidasa's date Message-ID: <161227048114.23782.8854039468186229888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > PS: Not only Kalidasa is radical by name, he also brings Southern > poetic traditions into full flowering in Sanskrit. George Hart's > thesis and book: Relations bet. IA and Dravidian literatures > says that Tamil sangam poetry traditions and Hala's saptasati > are the first love poems in India. This poetics describing > love situations, first available from the Dravidian South, > is used effectively by the great Kalidasa. Not just that Kalidasa employs southern ethos in love poetry, he penned a masterpiece, kumarasambhava, honoring basically a Tamil god, Murukan/vElOn/skanda/subrahmanya. The Pallava imagery of Somaskandamurti is found 99.9% in the present day Tamil Nadu and the remainder in its cultural sphere. Somaskanda imagery where the baby skanda-murugan, just learning to stand up, in the safety of the space between his graceful, mighty parents sitting on a couch is shown only Pallava panels and Chola bronzes. Somaskanda reminds us of Kumarasambhava and Appar's `nam kaDambanaip peRRavaL pangin2an2'. Interesting that we find several coins, sculptures of Subrahmanya only around Kumaragupta's reign and in those Guptan Kings' honor, Kalidasa might have created Kumarasambhava. After this, Subrahmanya is disappearing anywhere else except Tamil lands, both in letters or art, for the last 1500 years. SM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Fri Apr 16 08:19:10 1999 From: Steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 10:19:10 +0200 Subject: History of Debate In-Reply-To: <19990415164408.6668.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048102.23782.11967363699524110860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 15 Apr 99, at 9:44, nanda chandran wrote: > KAlidhAsa never declares in his works that his name is KAlidhAsa. He > just stresses that he is a great devotee of Goddess KAli. It's from > later poets who laud his works and refer to the author as KAlidhAsa, > that the name KAlidhAsa has become connected to those fabled works of > poetry and drama. Cf. Abhij~naana"sakuntalaa, Prologue, Suutradhaara.h -- adya khalu kaalidaasagrathitavastunaa navenaabhij~naana"sakuntalaakhyena naa.takenopasthaatavyam asmaabhi.h | Maalavikaagnimitra, Prologue, Suutradhaara.h -- abhihito ?smi pari.sadaa kaalidaasagrathitavastu maalavikaagnimitra.m naama naa.takam asmin vasantotsave prayoktavyam iti | [...] Paaripaar"svika.h -- [...] prathitaya"sasaa.m bhaasasaumillakaviputraadiinaa.m prabandhaan atikramya vartamaanakave.h kaalidaasasya k.rtau ki.m k.rto bahumaana.h | Vikramorva"sii, Prologue, Suutradhaara.h -- aham asyaa.m kaalidaasagrathitavastunaa vikramorva"siinaamnaa navena tro.takenopasthaasye | Regards, Roland Steiner From hart at POLBOX.COM Fri Apr 16 08:22:38 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 10:22:38 +0200 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri In-Reply-To: <19990415112930.37733.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048104.23782.617881809057388018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >My friend, < >>wrote this. ><< >Just happened to be reading a Jataka tale, the Crab Jataka (#267). In >describing an elephant (an incarnation of Bodhisatta) the English >translation reads, " he was like a purple mountain of collyrium." > I wonder why 'purple' and not 'black'? >Regards, >N. Ganesan When the KakkaTakajAtaka (267) describes the elephant, it says: "so... mahAsarIro... aGjanapabbato viya ahosi" (he became of... great body..., like a mountain of collyrium [or: like a black mountain]). The adjective "purple" may have been added by the authors of the translation [H.T. Francis, E.J. Thomas, Jataka Tales] just to make it sound better. The PED translates aGjana as 'ointment, esp. a collyrium for the eyes, made of antimony', also, as adj.: 'glossy, jet-black'. Quite interestingly, the PED notes two instances when aGjana is used in the meaning of 'ointment-tube, collyrium-box' (aGjana=aGjana-nALi - TherIgAthA 413, Dhammapada-aTThakathA II.25). Was also nALI/i ('a hollow stalk, tube, pipe') used to mean 'ointment-tube, collyrium-box'? With its suggestion of blackness? Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland ----------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ----------------- Szybka w sciaganiu, animowana, interaktywna, z muzyka i efektami dzwiekowymi.... Zobacz jak moze wygladac strona WWW: http://www.webdesign.pl/ --------------------------------------------------------------- From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Apr 16 16:28:46 1999 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 12:28:46 -0400 Subject: Kalidasa and Izvarak.r.s.na In-Reply-To: <19990416131743.91801.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048116.23782.1658117314636680701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just to mention that the topic of Kalidasa's identity with Izvarak.r.s.na was discussed at length by T.G. Mainkar in his book: Kalidasa, His Art and Thought, Deshmukh Prakashan, Pune 1962. Madhav Deshpande From jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO Fri Apr 16 14:37:02 1999 From: jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 16:37:02 +0200 Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati In-Reply-To: <19990413115446.69095.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048112.23782.14902920771772830416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Veena of Saraswati Since Saraswati is debated, can anybody tell me why she is playing the Veena? Is there any popular story which focus upon the this instrument of the Goddess? Jon. From hart at POLBOX.COM Fri Apr 16 19:09:25 1999 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 21:09:25 +0200 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227048118.23782.5658640875964649220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When the KakkaTakajAtaka (267) describes the elephant, it says: "so... mahAsarIro... aGjanapabbato viya ahosi".... Oops, it should've been - aJjana... Sorry. A. Karp ----------------- [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ----------------- Szybka w sciaganiu, animowana, interaktywna, z muzyka i efektami dzwiekowymi.... Zobacz jak moze wygladac strona WWW: http://www.webdesign.pl/ --------------------------------------------------------------- From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Apr 17 01:42:44 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 21:42:44 -0400 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048119.23782.12925703313503090265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 4/3/99 10:24:13 AM Central Standard Time, mrabe at ARTIC.EDU writes: > This may very well be a correct inference, but it is at odds with the > views of E. Hultzsch [_Gadval Plates of Vikramaditya, c. A.D. 674_, EI X > (1909-10): 102], who cites Venkayya's equation of Kalidasa's Uragapura with > Uraiyur, an ancient capital of the Cholas near Tiruchi and his own > preference for matching it with the coastal Buddhist enclave, Nagapattanam > [i.e., Ptolmey's Nikama]. In other words, I think it's an unwarranted > stretch to say that because Kalidas identifies his Uraga with the Pandyas > that he must necessarily have had Madurai in mind. Perhaps his knowledge > of Southern geography wasn't so precise after all! What is needed is not the precise location of the capital of the Pandyas, but rather knowledge of Pandyan traditions. For this, there is ample evidence that Kalidasa was intimately familiar with the traditions regarding the Pandyas. At least in this he seems to have been better informed than the modern scholar Venkayya. G. S. Ghurye, in his book, "Indian Acculturation" says that in Raghuvamsa, Kalidasa says the following: 1. Agastya was the officiating priest for a Pandya king 2. The Pandya king was so powerful that Ravana thought it prudent to effect a peace-treaty with him. 3. Pandya kings wore a special necklace. Item 1 is mentioned in the Sanskrit portion of the vELvikkuTi copper plates of 770 AD. Item 2 is mentioned in the Sanskrit portion of the taLavAypuram copper plates 908 AD. Item 3 is mentioned in cilappatikAram, not later than 5th century AD, and later copper plates. Consider the tradition of Ravana's peace treaty with the Pandyas. Not many Tamil scholars would know that story. It is first attested in Tamilnadu in the copper plates cited above. When Kalidasa was aware of that story, and when Madurai was known to Megasthenes and Kautalya, I do not think it is reasonable to doubt that Kalidasa knew Madurai was the capital of the Pandyas. (On the other hand, Venkayya's identification of Pandyan capital with uRaiyUr is like identification of Palani in Tamilnadu with Pilani in north India based on superficial similarity.) > Precluding the identification with Madurai is this passage from the cited > plates: > > _This VikramAditya....having entered the Cholika province was encamped in > Uragapura which is situated on the southern bank of the Kaveri..._ [ibid., > p. 105, ll. 22, 23] This uragapura has been discussed by T. N. Subrahmanyan in the Proceedings of the Seventh All India Oriental Conference and identified as Tirunageswaram/pAmpUr east of Kumbakonam. (SeeThirty Pallava Copper Plates, 1966, p.44). If anything, it only shows that this identification of uragapura with uRaiyUr is wrong too. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Apr 17 15:12:47 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 99 11:12:47 -0400 Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? Message-ID: <161227048121.23782.16389300299639438260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DEDR 3656 has Ta. nAL day, early dawn, forenoon..etc. What DEDR does not list is the word naTunAL, a compound of naTu + nAL meaning midnight instead of midday. In fact, the following CT usage clearly contrasts naTunAL and pakal (daytime). "naTUnAL yAmattum pakalum tuJcAn2" (puRanAn2URu 189.3) If we also consider that DEDR 3621 has Ta. naL meaning 'night', we can see that at first the word "nAL" (derived from the root *naL- meaning 'to be dark') must have meant 'night'. Then, how did it come to mean 'day'? Another meaning of "nAL" not listed by DEDR but preserved in Tamil and Malayalam is 'daily lunar asterism' more explicitly referred to as "nALmIn2", a compound of "nAL" and 'mIn2", where "mIn2" is from *min2- to flash, glitter, etc. (See DEDR 4876). It looks like the astronomical knowledge of lunar asterism seems to have formed the basis for naming the whole interval between the corresponding times of successive nights as "nAL". DEDR 3621 and 3656 have cognates in south, central and north Dravidian subgroups. That means the astronomical observations by Dravidian speakers must have a very ancient history. Comments are welcome. Are there other languages where the word for day is based on the word for night? Regards S. Palaniappan From gourish at INTERNET1.NET Sat Apr 17 15:28:26 1999 From: gourish at INTERNET1.NET (Sunder Hattangadi) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 99 11:28:26 -0400 Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati Message-ID: <161227048123.23782.1554954900655550030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rather than a story, the Veena symbolises the fine arts, especially music. Sunder ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Skarpeid To: Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 10:37 AM Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati | Veena of Saraswati | Since Saraswati is debated, can anybody tell me why she is playing the | Veena? Is there any popular story which focus upon the this instrument of | the Goddess? | | | Jon. | From galewicz at VELA.FILG.UJ.EDU.PL Sat Apr 17 15:43:25 1999 From: galewicz at VELA.FILG.UJ.EDU.PL (Cezary Galewicz) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 99 17:43:25 +0200 Subject: Odp: Dyczkowski/Kasmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227048125.23782.9224758212598071093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On April 11th Edwin Bryant wrote: -----Wiadomo?? oryginalna----- Od: Edwin Bryant Do: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Data: 11 kwietnia 1999 01:29 Temat: Dyczkowski/Kasmir Shaivism >Greetings all, > > Might anyone have an e-mail or contact address for Mark Dyczkowski >who has written extensively on Kashmir Shaivism? Much obliged, >Edwin Bryant Perhaps you can reach Mark at his Varanasi address: B14/65 Narad Ghat Varanasi 221011 phone: 91 - 542 - 327169 Cezary Galewicz From partha at CAPITAL.NET Sun Apr 18 00:14:52 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 99 20:14:52 -0400 Subject: BJP Govt. Falls: My Question Is, So What? In-Reply-To: <199901121406.IAA10312@dune.artic.edu> Message-ID: <161227048128.23782.10855690932117739136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My two cents for your kind attention. -Partha ________________________________________________ **BJP Coalition Loses -- SO WHAT???** Here is my reading into the newest soap opera developing in India. _________ News: BSP (a regional party of privileged leaders of poor untouchables) ABSTENTION: the BSP, with five members, voted against the BJP instead of abstaining, as announced last night; _________ Read: So maybe they were bought off by powers who want Sonia Gandhi in. _________ News: DMK (a Southern Tamil party with a dictatorial billionaire ex-film-person leader) now voted in favor of BJP, and AIADMK (another Southern Tamil party with a dictatorial billionaire ex-film star leader) of Jayalalitha Imelda Marcos withdrew its support. My reading: DMK voted in favor of BJP. This is the most important event to observe. When you see parties switching sides (in this case, DMK and AIADMK switched support) for or against status quo coalitions such as BJP or Congress, YOU KNOW THAT THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE COALITIONS and that who forms a govt in such a system DOES NOT MATTER. THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE IN THE LIVES OF THE POOR AND OPPRESSED WITH A CHANGE OF RULING COALITIONS IN POWER. _________ With more elections coming up and more such turmoils taking place with NO REAL EMPOWERMENT of the common people of India, it is the democratic and secular fabric that is losing out to national and international power-brokers. A staunch critic of ultranationalist and fascist forces that I am, I strongly believe that international power-brokers are all out to destroy and decimate any self-assertive (good or bad kind) nations and governments WHICH IS THE REAL DANGER in front of us. Can Sonia Gandhi, Laloo Prasad, Mulayam Singh, or Jyoti Basu turn things around in India? Will they empower the poor and the downtrodden? DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH. Disgusted in politics of the privileged, -Partha Banerjee From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Sun Apr 18 03:30:37 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 99 20:30:37 -0700 Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? Message-ID: <161227048131.23782.420286957174326050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > DEDR 3656 has Ta. nAL day, early dawn, forenoon..etc. What DEDR does > not list > is the word naTunAL, a compound of naTu + nAL meaning midnight > instead of > midday. In fact, the following CT usage clearly contrasts naTunAL and > pakal > (daytime). > > "naTUnAL yAmattum pakalum tuJcAn2" (puRanAn2URu 189.3) There are quite a few other instances of such CT usage also: "kai amai viLakkam nantu toRum mATTa neTu nA OL maNi nikazttiya naTunAL" (mullaipppATTu:49-50) meaning (n.in2iyar) "... lighting [the torches] held in their hands whenever the lamps [fed by oil] die out during the mid might signalled by the ringing of the bell with the long tongue..". The commentator naccin2Arkkin2iniyar translates naTunAL as "naTu yAmam" whre naTu = middle and yAmam = night. > If we also consider that DEDR 3621 has Ta. naL meaning 'night', we > can see > that at first the word "nAL" (derived from the root *naL- meaning 'to > be > dark') must have meant 'night'. Then, how did it come to mean 'day'? > Another > meaning of "nAL" not listed by DEDR but preserved in Tamil and > Malayalam is > 'daily lunar asterism' more explicitly referred to as "nALmIn2", a > compound > of "nAL" and 'mIn2", where "mIn2" is from *min2- to flash, glitter, > etc. (See > DEDR 4876). It looks like the astronomical knowledge of lunar > asterism seems > to have formed the basis for naming the whole interval between the > corresponding times of successive nights as "nAL". DEDR 3621 and > 3656 have > cognates in south, central and north Dravidian subgroups. That means > the > astronomical observations by Dravidian speakers must have a very > ancient > history. Comments are welcome. > > Are there other languages where the word for day is based on the word > for > night? > > Regards > S. Palaniappan > Actually the word "nAL" itself stands for daily lunar asterism without the assistance of teh word "mIn2": "nALoTu peyariya vizu marattu" (neTunalvATai 82) where the commentator n.in2iyar translates "nAL" as "the asterism uttaram" as in "uttaram e2nn2um nALin2 peyar peRRa". Another classical text uses the words "nAL mIn2" and "kOL mIn2" to distinguish between lunar asterisms and planets showing that "nAL" means asterism and "kOL" planet: "nIl niRa vicumpin2 valan2 Erpu tiritaru nAL mIn2 virAya kOL mIn2 pOla" (paTTin2appAlai: 67-68) meaning "...like the planets, dispersed amidst the lunar asterisms, traversing clockwise in the blue sky..". paripATal: "villin2 kaTai makaram mEvap pAmpu ollai mathiyam maRaiya varum nAL" (paripATal: 11:9-10) commentator parimElazakar says "...on the [aviTTam] asterism when [saturn] aligns with makaram which is next to sagittarius and [rAhu] hides the full moon". here nAL = asterism specifically aviTTam. tolkAppiyam lays down sandhi rules involving words for asterisms: "nAL mun2 tOnRum tozil nilaik kiLavikku ..." (tolk #247:ezut:uyir may.) "nAl peyar kiLavi mEl kiLantan2n2a ..." (tolk #331:ezut:puLLi may.) Regards Chandra _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Apr 17 22:03:47 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 99 22:03:47 +0000 Subject: Palaeovegetation in Eurasia 5000 years ago Message-ID: <161227048127.23782.1771036765927293451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, There is information of interest to indology members at: http://www.soton.ac.uk/~tjms/eurasia.html (extracts mirrored at http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/aryan/glacialage.htm) The Eurasia map of 5000 years ago is revealing. The only region which could have supported an extensive civilization (such as the Harappan), is shown to be in South Asia and not near the Caucus. Preliminary land ecosystem maps of the world since the Last Glacial Maximum are prepared by Laboratoire de Geologie du Quaternaire, CEREGE, Europole de l'Arbois, B.P. 80, F-13545, Aix-en-Provence Cedex 04, France. Comments are welcome. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sun Apr 18 19:02:29 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 99 12:02:29 -0700 Subject: Is vENu from Ta. vEL? Message-ID: <161227048135.23782.4461459006378855325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > There is an early Tamil Brahmi inscription mentioning a > chief vEL, as vEN kOsipan. BeLagAm, cognate with vEL gRama, > is mentioned in several copper plates as vENugrAma. > Rigveda 133.3 refers to a vailasthAna and scholars > have written that it refers to the place of vEL-s. > > Traditional explanation of the name vENu occuring in Sanskrit > is 'cane, reed' etc., For example, "Heinrich Lueders > (Philologica Indica, p. 555), who compares the old king's name Nala > (according to him originally "cane" [still Na.da in "SB. 2,3,2,1.2]; > cf. naa.dii, naala, nalina, etc.) with names like Ve.nu etc." > > Even though names like nala, naalaayanii, nalagiri(nalAgiri, nAlAgiri), > nArAyana ( naL (black), the traditional explanation had been to link with > 'reed'. In similar vein, vENu is usually explained with 'cane,reed'. > > Given the tendency in Sanskrit to change Ta. vEL to vENu, > does the name vENu signify the title of Chiefs related to/cognate with > Tamil vEL? > > Sincerely > SM > > Dr. S. Palaniappan wrote at different times, > >> one can see how vEL with an > >> enunciative vowel can become vENu in Sanskrit provided we allow for the > >> alternation of vEL with vEN in the local area. > [...] > > Lionel D. Barnett, in his article, "Two inscriptions from Belgaum, now in > the British Museum", EI, vol. 13, p.18, says,"The places mentioned in this > record are not many...vENugrAma (II. 38, 44, 48, 50), or vENugrAme >(II. 41, 42), is BeLgaum itself; in other inscriptions its name occurs as > vELugrAme; and it is known from other records to have been the chief town of a > small district of seventy villages; it seems to have been a second capital > of the rATTa princes." The inscription belongs to 1204 AD. > << reveal some interesting information about the name of Belgaum. In "A Copper- > Plate Grant of the Yadava King Krishna" K. B. Pathak says, "And the chief > object of it is to record that MalliseTTi, the minister of kRiSNa, bestowed > the village of tAmbrapurI, in the district of vENugrAma or Belgaum, upon a > number of brAhmaNs" (The transliteration 'vENugrAma' follows that of K. B. > Pathak.) also confirmed by the Sanskrit name. > We are fortunate to have the form vEN occurring in a Tamil-Brahmi inscription > tentaively dated by T. V. Mahalingam to be from 3rd to 2nd Century B.C. The > inscription is found in a cavern in Marugaltalai near Tirunelveli. It reads, > "vEN kOsipan kuTupita kal kAJcaNam". (See "Early South Indian Paleography", > p.221) Here vEN stands for vEL.>>> > [....] > < avAsAM maghava? jahi shardho yAtumatInAm | > vailasthAnake armake mahAvailasthe armake || > A scholar by name Dr. R. Mathivanan interprets "vailasthAna" to refer to a > city of vELs or Dravidian chiefs. Can the Vedic scholars give what in their > view is the correct interpretation?>> _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Apr 18 09:45:26 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 99 15:15:26 +0530 Subject: BJP Govt. Falls: Partha Banerjee's comments Message-ID: <161227048133.23782.17638860081119032626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: BJP Govt. Falls: Partha Banerji's comments Interesting comments on the present plight of Indian politics. It is in brief the struggle between the culture and the vulture (another name for politics) which feeds on the carcasses of values. KSA From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sun Apr 18 22:43:20 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 99 15:43:20 -0700 Subject: BJP Govt. Falls: My Question Is, So What? Message-ID: <161227048136.23782.8871018091087014033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subramaniam Swamy, M.P. has likened Sonia to Laxmi, Jayalalita to Sarasvati, and Mayavati to Durga and he claims India is saved because of the trio! Currently, does Laxmi represent the West -Rome, Sarasvati represent the Brahmin lady - traditional knowledge bearer, Durga the Shudra woman?? Is it high time to switch to All India Roman script? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Mon Apr 19 03:07:07 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 99 20:07:07 -0700 Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? Message-ID: <161227048140.23782.16273738434120168997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> .... > > Another > > meaning of "nAL" not listed by DEDR but preserved in Tamil and > > Malayalam is > > 'daily lunar asterism' more explicitly referred to as "nALmIn2", a > > compound > > of "nAL" and 'mIn2", where "mIn2" is from *min2- to flash, glitter, > > etc. (See > > DEDR 4876). > > Regards > > S. Palaniappan > > > > Actually the word "nAL" itself stands for daily lunar asterism > without > the assistance of teh word "mIn2": > > Another classical text uses the words "nAL mIn2" and "kOL mIn2" > to distinguish between lunar asterisms and planets showing that "nAL" > means asterism and "kOL" planet: > "nIl niRa vicumpin2 valan2 Erpu tiritaru > nAL mIn2 virAya kOL mIn2 pOla" (paTTin2appAlai: 67-68) > > meaning "...like the planets, dispersed amidst the lunar asterisms, > traversing clockwise in the blue sky..". > > paripATal: > "villin2 kaTai makaram mEvap pAmpu ollai > mathiyam maRaiya varum nAL" (paripATal: 11:9-10) > commentator parimElazakar says > "...on the [aviTTam] asterism when [saturn] aligns with makaram > which is next to sagittarius and [rAhu] hides the full moon". > here nAL = asterism specifically aviTTam. Entering the word "naks2atra" in the "English" field of the search menu for the Cologne Online Tamil Lexicon at http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/otl_search.html returns 200 entries many with the suffix "nAL" or "n2AL". Another very interesting point to note is the Tamil names for the asterisms pushed out of currency by Skt. names. Sample: maruttuvanAL = asvini aRivan2AL = the 26th naks2atra (uttara prostapada) erinAL, Al, Aral = the third naks2atra (krittika); [Al and Aral occur frequently in CT] nIrnAL = the 20th naks2atra (Purvashada) mAyOn2AL, ONam = the 22nd naks2atra (shravana or Ta. ONam) [mAyOn2 = Skt. vishnu] jnemali = the 10th naks2atra (magha) = dog vIzkkai = the 15th naks2atra (Svati) nAvAy, paHRi = rEvati [nAvAy = ship; paHRi = round boat] _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From partha at CAPITAL.NET Mon Apr 19 00:40:12 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 99 20:40:12 -0400 Subject: BJP Govt. Falls: My Question Is, So What? In-Reply-To: <19990418224320.19550.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227048138.23782.17926690536411553974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan >Subramaniam Swamy, M.P. has likened >Sonia to Laxmi, Jayalalita to Sarasvati, >and Mayavati to Durga and he claims India >is saved because of the trio! > >Currently, does Laxmi represent the West -Rome, >Sarasvati represent the Brahmin lady - traditional >knowledge bearer, Durga the Shudra woman?? > >Is it high time to switch to All India Roman script? _________ Swamy is also one of the most pro-U.S. politicians Jan Sangh/BJP has ever produced. Now he sleeps with anti-BJP forces. During my days with RSS and Jan Sangh, I knew him personally. He can do anything to get into political limelight. Truly, in today's India, Sonia = Lakshmi (still sits on Bofors money?); Jayalalitha "Imelda" (I thought *she* was today's Lakshmi) = Saraswati (think about her political wisdom to mastermind the fall); and Mayavati = Durga (consider her big army of U.P. thugs). Who benefits from this enormous chaos? What do Swamy's Harvard colleagues say? -Partha From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 19 11:36:42 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 04:36:42 -0700 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048142.23782.2946814201959037251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >there is ample evidence that Kalidasa was intimately familiar with >the traditions regarding the Pandyas. At least in this he seems to >have been better informed than the modern scholar Venkayya. This is true. What the modern scholar, V. Venkayya did has a powerful influence among India specialists, usually unaware of any Dravidian language. Venkayya's myth of uragapura of Pandyas = Uraiyur (part of modern Tiruchy) is propagated by E. Hultzsch onwards. A more recent example can be seen in a book by an authority of ancient Indian geography: B. C. Law, Mountains and Rivers of India, Geological Survey of India, Calcutta, 1968, p.209, "In ancient times the KAvErI, noted for pearl fishery, flowed down into the sea through the southern portion of the ancient kingdom of coLa. Uragapura, the ancient capital of CoLa, modern uRaiyUr, was situated on the southern bank of KAvErI." Scholars may be aware that B. C. Law has three major errors: a) KAviri flows in the middle of Chola kingdom (NOT in its southern bounds). b) Vaiyai/Vaigai's meeting place of the sea is the well known pearl harvesting site. It is in the Pandya country. Greek, Arab, Tamil, Sanskrit sources say this. [NOT the Kaveri]. c) Uragapura is the Haalaasya (Madurai), capital of the Pandyas who collected taxes for pearl fishery and adorned themselves and Meenakshi with pearls. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Apr 19 17:26:06 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 07:26:06 -1000 Subject: BJP Govt. Falls: My Question Is, So What? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048144.23782.4115971871668426074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Swamy is also one of the most pro-U.S. politicians Jan Sangh/BJP has ever [...] > Who benefits from this enormous chaos? What do Swamy's Harvard colleagues say? Conspiracy theories are unnecessary here; politicians' natural lust for power is adequate to explain recent events. Regards, Raja. PS: Things are not too bad, in my opinion. At least the BJP delivered a more sensible defence policy, which any other party will find it difficult to reverse. From Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH Mon Apr 19 09:45:13 1999 From: Anand.Nayak at UNIFR.CH (Anand Nayak) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 10:45:13 +0100 Subject: Tips for study-tour to India In-Reply-To: <199904200012.TAA06976@dune.artic.edu> Message-ID: <161227048169.23782.3099202624490975577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I have in the past organised thrice indological study tours to India. There were each time 32 participants from Europe. Now several students come for tips to organise their own private and individual study-tours and so I have drawn up a text in French entitled "Voyage en solitaire en Inde. Conseils d'un Indien habitant en Europe" and the same in German :"Allein reisen in Indien. Ratschl?ge eines in Europa lebenden Inders". I would like to make it available to the members of this list. It is about 4 pages long, explaining mostly the practical problems of the Indian situation which often gives a shock to a gentle Westerner.If you are interested in it, please send me an e-mail. I would be happy to receive in return comments and critique. A. Nayak PS: The text is not available for the moment in English. I can produce an English version if there is interest for it. Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Route du Jura CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1465 bytes Desc: not available URL: From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Mon Apr 19 22:12:47 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 12:12:47 -1000 Subject: BJP Govt. Falls: My Question Is, So What? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048152.23782.2856361691377800212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Partha Banerjee wrote: > Who talked about a conspiracy? Thought you did. Sounded like it, with all those hints about the U.S., Harvard, and what not. What did all that mean, then? > Moreover, we should be proud to have a more sensible defence policy Not proud, but relieved. > and not > bicker about the ever-increasing poverty, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ According to the International Food Policy Research Institute at: http://www.cgiar.org/IFPRI/divs/eptd/dp/2dp33.htm , "Poverty in rural India has declined substantially in recent decades. The percentage of the rural population living below the poverty line fluctuated between 50 and 65 percent prior to the mid-1960s, but then declined steadily to about one third of the rural population by the early 1990s." > skyrocketing prices of living, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ According to today's Financial Times at: http://www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/19990419/fec19047.html , "The annual rate of inflation fell sharply by 0.44 percentage points to 4.60 per cent in the first week of 1999-2000 on cheaper non-food articles and food products." > and nuclear waste, etc. We don't have much (yet). We don't have much oil either. So the choice at this time is between nuclear waste and coal smoke. In real life, we are often confronted by more than one problem simultaneously. Then one has to do something about all of them. Regards, Raja. PS: I don't think this is relevant to the Indology list. From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 19 20:39:43 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 13:39:43 -0700 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048150.23782.17015337209724106526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the identity of Kalidasa with Isvarakrisna, I recall that a few years back I came across a solitary reference in an old text that Isvarakrsna was 'An ascetic who resided at the banks of a lake in a hut." Unfortunately, I cannot remember this reference, probably it was in the "History and Development of the Samkhya Philosophy' of Pulinbehari Chakraborty. Anyway, if I find it, I will post it. The reference clearly disproves the theory that Kalidasa and Isvarakrsna were one and the same person. Vishal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From partha at CAPITAL.NET Mon Apr 19 18:10:03 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 14:10:03 -0400 Subject: BJP Govt. Falls: My Question Is, So What? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048146.23782.2568725276234277119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Who talked about a conspiracy? Aren't things just the way it should be? Moreover, we should be proud to have a more sensible defence policy and not bicker about the ever-increasing poverty, skyrocketing prices of living, and nuclear waste, etc. ___________ >Conspiracy theories are unnecessary here; >politicians' natural lust for power is >adequate to explain recent events. > >Regards, > > >Raja. > >PS: Things are not too bad, in my opinion. > At least the BJP delivered a more sensible > defence policy, which any other party will > find it difficult to reverse. From sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU Mon Apr 19 22:48:08 1999 From: sumedh at CS.WUSTL.EDU (Sumedh Mungee) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 15:48:08 -0700 Subject: An appeal (was Re: BJP Govt. Falls: My Question Is, So What?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048154.23782.15636150462530223464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Partha Banerjee writes: > Who talked about a conspiracy? Aren't things just the way it should > be? Moreover, we should be proud to have a more sensible defence > policy and not bicker about the ever-increasing poverty, > skyrocketing prices of living, and nuclear waste, etc. There he goes again. Predictable, and annoying. Can the list moderators please consider publishing a policy regarding such unsolicited off-topic political propoganda on the INDOLOGY list? INDOLOGY is an amazing list with a very responsible posting history, and a tradition of keeping a sharp focus on it's objectives. I'd love to see it stay that way. And lastly Mr. Banerjee, if you would really like to discuss defense strategies, politics, economics and poverty with a mature audience, may I suggest we wait until your sixteenth birthday? Perhaps your perspective on such deep topics will have matured and become more informed by then. ~sumedh From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 20 00:06:13 1999 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 17:06:13 -0700 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048158.23782.17323424063465442269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Regarding the identity of Kalidasa with Isvarakrisna, I recall that a >few years back I came across a solitary reference in an old text that >Isvarakrsna was 'An ascetic who resided at the banks of a lake in a >hut." Unfortunately, I cannot remember this reference, probably it >was in the "History and Development of the Samkhya Philosophy' of >Pulinbehari Chakraborty. Anyway, if I find it, I will >post it. The reference clearly disproves the theory that Kalidasa and >Isvarakrsna were one and the same person. So? He could have well been KAlidhAsa as a grihasta and Ishvara Krishna during his VAnaprasta and samnyAsin stages. >Why I feel that kAlidAsa cannot be the author of the sAMkhya-kArikA >is the enormous difference in style. Though IzvarakRSNa is no mean >poet himself, but he is plain and straightforward; for instance he >avoids complicated or lengthy compounds and he uses a single metre >(AryA) throughout. So even if kAlidAsa would turn out to be a staunch >follower of sAMkhya I would not believe in their identity. Probably he got tired of all the flowery verbal patterns and linguistic gymnastics, as he got more serious :-) Humour apart, it is a thing to be considered. The purpose of poetry is different from philosophy. With the latter, the stress is not on language, grammar or artistic expression. The subject being serious and already complicated, the author might have restricted himself to simpler forms of expression to make his theories clear. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 20 01:03:50 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 18:03:50 -0700 Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati Message-ID: <161227048160.23782.3536206755421892020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jon Skarpeid wrote: >Veena of Saraswati >Since Saraswati is debated, can anybody tell me why she is playing the >Veena? Is there any popular story which focus upon the this instrument of >the Goddess? The term Veena simply refers to any stringed instrument, irrespective of whether it is a kind of lute or a zither. One must distinguish among literary references to Sarasvati's Veena, older sculptural depictions of Sarasvati's Veena and contemporary color jobs. Most literary references are simply meant to depict the Goddess as the patron of the musical arts. Sculptures present a huge variety of instruments, which are not necessarily precursors of what is called the Veena today. Contemporary depictions also show a huge regional variation. In the south, Sarasvati plays the south Indian Veena, but in the north, Sarasvati plays not the Been, but the Sitar! And quite often, a peacock is shown by the side, although the prescribed vehicle is the swan. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Tue Apr 20 00:12:01 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 19:12:01 -0500 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048156.23782.6877565963210654807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Defending V. Venkayya and E. Hultzsch & in response to Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan >Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:42:44 EDT & Venkatraman Iyer >Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 04:36:42 PDT These pioneering epigraphist took at face value, as do I, the Gadval plates assertion that in c. 674 A.D. the Chalukya king Vikramaditya I first sacked Kancipuram and then continued southwards as far as Uragapura on the Kaveri. It seems perfectly reasonable, moreover to equate THAT Uragapura with the one Kalidas mentioned a couple centuries earlier, [but as a city of Pandyas]. The only uncertainty or difference of opinon between them was as to which place along the Kaveri had that name in the 7th century, if not earlier. Two alternatives they came up with were Uraiyur, i.e, the environs of Tiruchi, or Nagapattinam, on the coast. So, to my esteemed contemporaries, who share an interest in these matters, I have expressed doubts that Kalidas was referring to Madurai when he wrote of Uraga of the Pandyas. Perhaps, when he wrote Pandya mandalam extended northwards to include portions of the Kavari delta. So I retract my comment that he was less than well informed about the Tamil place names of his day. But it is unwarranted, I believe, to ascribe a snake-related name to Madurai on the basis of the Kalidas reference, which is what I took Palanaiappan to be doing last month. Likewise, if Kalidas is the first to report that: >2. The Pandya king was so powerful that Ravana thought it prudent to effect a >peace-treaty with him. then I take it as more likely that the author of the Sanskrit portion of the taLavAypuram copper plates [>908 AD.] knew Kalidasa's reference, than the alternative, espoused by Palaniappan that Kalidasa was familar with an allegedly earlier local tradition among the Pandyas. The assertion strikes me more as a poetic conceit than a local sthala-puranic tradition. And as far as special jewels are concerned, just about every dynasty of ancient India had them in abundance: special jewels, drums, crowns, icons, you name it... I don't see the Raghuvamsa reference as indicating any special knowledge of Pandya specific palladiums. PraNAms, Michael Rabe SAIC/SXU/Chicago From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Mon Apr 19 18:04:44 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 20:04:44 +0200 Subject: History of Debate Message-ID: <161227048148.23782.14235043155400451172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: >Ferenc, are you correct in saying that missing references are a rule >in Indian literature? Dear Nanda, what I mean is: named, unambiguous and reliable information, (based on) near-contemporary sources. E. g. if I understand your hint: > KAlidhAsa makes a comment about the Bauddha > logician DignAga to refer to meghadUta 14, there is only the word diGnAga (world-elephant), and no talk of logic or Buddhism - so it is rather doubtful information. >It's in this way that I find it strange that no mention of Ishvara >Krishna occurs anywhere (Am I right in this?). Of course the name IzvarakRSNa occurs in the sAMkhya-kArikA itself (71) and also in some of the earlier commentaries; but no reliable data. Quite some authors quote the sAMkhya-kArikA, including zaGkara in the brahma-sUtra-bhASya (not naming the author, of course). Lots of information can be found in: Dr. Shiv Kumar: sAMkhya Thought in the Brahminical Systems of Indian Philosophy. Delhi 1983. Why I feel that kAlidAsa cannot be the author of the sAMkhya-kArikA is the enormous difference in style. Though IzvarakRSNa is no mean poet himself, but he is plain and straightforward; for instance he avoids complicated or lengthy compounds and he uses a single metre (AryA) throughout. So even if kAlidAsa would turn out to be a staunch follower of sAMkhya I would not believe in their identity. Yours, Ferenc From partha at CAPITAL.NET Tue Apr 20 03:06:40 1999 From: partha at CAPITAL.NET (Partha Banerjee) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 23:06:40 -0400 Subject: BJP Govt. Falls: My Question Is, So What? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048162.23782.12406766656262039602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't want to discuss politics with people who don't want to discuss politics. That's okay. But there are people on this list here who do want to discuss politics. And I don't want to talk poverty with people who haven't seen poverty. They have only seen numbers. And one kind of numbers. And we have been in this melee many times before when political discussions (and relevant ones) are watered down by "apolitical" "scholars". As if politics is detached from scholarly lives. Oh yes, fascists and fanatics are now very sad that their govt is toppled by their own bedfellows. Let's forgive their viciousness for now. -Partha Banerjee _____________________________________________ >On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Partha Banerjee wrote: > >> Who talked about a conspiracy? > >Thought you did. Sounded like it, >with all those hints about the U.S., >Harvard, and what not. What did all >that mean, then? > > >> Moreover, we should be proud to have a more sensible defence policy > >Not proud, but relieved. > > >> and not >> bicker about the ever-increasing poverty, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >According to the International Food Policy >Research Institute at: >http://www.cgiar.org/IFPRI/divs/eptd/dp/2dp33.htm , > >"Poverty in rural India has declined substantially in recent decades. The > percentage of the rural population living below the poverty line > fluctuated between 50 and 65 percent prior to the mid-1960s, but then > declined steadily to about one third of the rural population by the > early 1990s." > > >> skyrocketing prices of living, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >According to today's Financial Times at: >http://www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/19990419/fec19047.html , > >"The annual rate of inflation fell sharply by > 0.44 percentage points to 4.60 per cent in the first week of > 1999-2000 on cheaper non-food articles and food products." > > >> and nuclear waste, etc. > >We don't have much (yet). We don't >have much oil either. So the choice >at this time is between nuclear waste >and coal smoke. > > >In real life, we are often confronted by >more than one problem simultaneously. >Then one has to do something about all >of them. > >Regards, > > >Raja. > >PS: I don't think this is relevant to > the Indology list. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Apr 20 09:15:33 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 23:15:33 -1000 Subject: BJP Govt. Falls: My Question Is, So What? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048167.23782.7738722439125675711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Partha Banerjee wrote: > And I don't want to talk poverty with people who haven't seen poverty. Hard to imagine that anyone from India hasn't seen poverty. > have only seen numbers. And one kind of numbers. Yes. There is no substitute for truthful numbers. > Oh yes, fascists and fanatics are now very sad that their govt is toppled OK, OK, whatever. Actually, I'm pleased to see the punishment of Mr. "National Debate on conversion" Vajpayee. He should have resigned for that one stupid comment alone. Regards, Raja. PS: I favour the Dalai Lama for PM. :-) From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 20 11:32:28 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 99 04:32:28 -0700 Subject: Laxmi & Saraswati Message-ID: <161227048171.23782.3819747947454212800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Veena represents all the fine arts as well, To show that 'Siva is the master of all arts, Veenadhara dakshinamurti was conceived. To please 'Siva, Ravana plays on the veena. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 20 11:45:34 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 99 04:45:34 -0700 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048173.23782.16711833004020773106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Rabe wrote: <<>> What does Raghuvamsa really say on Pandyas, Tambraparnii, Pearls, Uragapura? In IV or VI chapter? Is the geography known Kalidasa analysed somewhere? Requesting list members for the "uragapura" portion from Raghuvamsa. Thanks, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 20 13:14:19 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 99 06:14:19 -0700 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048175.23782.11196705722923915792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >the Gadval plates assertion that in c. 674 A.D. the Chalukya > king Vikramaditya I first sacked Kancipuram and then continued >southwards as far as Uragapura on the Kaveri. It seems > perfectly reasonable, moreover to equate THAT Uragapura >with the one Kalidas mentioned a couple centuries earlier, [but as a >city of Pandyas]. Kalidasa does not mention Uraga is on the Kaveri river. THE uragapura is on the Kaveri, acc. to Gadval plates. The Gadval plates' uragapura could be Nagapattanam, Nagesvaram (T. N. Subrahmanian), or TiruppAmburam (Tevaram). I think the Kalidasa's uraga and Chalukya reference to uraga are two different places. >And as far as special jewels are concerned, just about every dynasty >of ancient India had them in abundance: special jewels, drums, > crowns, icons, you name it... I don't see the Raghuvamsa reference > as indicating any special knowledge of Pandya specific palladiums. However: The Pandyas wore a special necklace from Indra. This is told in CilappatikAram (5th century) and Rajendra Chola 's prasasti/meykkIrtti (11th century) - the tamil portion of Chola royal announcement tells us that the Chola King took away the necklace of Indra from the Pandyas. If Kalidasa is talking of the special necklaces of Pandyas, it is something special. kOvA malai Aram kOtta kaTal Aram tEvar kOn2 pUN Aram ten2n2ar kOn2 mArpin2avE! - Cilampu 7.29.1-2 Yours, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU Tue Apr 20 13:55:57 1999 From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt Thorp) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 99 08:55:57 -0500 Subject: XXth Zograph Conference at St Petersburg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048177.23782.15231062815886831475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sounds like a great meeting. Please let us know if the the proceedings are published at some point (in English? in Russian?). Maybe it's time for Indologists to learn to read Russian (in the same way that Indo-Europeanists do). At 11:13 AM 4/20/99 +0400, Yaroslav V. Vassilkov wrote: >Dear colleagues, > below is the programme of the latest Indological event at >St Petersburg (Russia), which can give you an idea of basic trends and range >of topics in Indian studies here. > Best regards, > Yaroslav Vassilkov > >XXth ZOGRAPH CONFERENCE >"TRADITIONAL INDIAN TEXTS: >PROBLEMS OF INTERPRETATION" >St Petersburg, April 14-16, 1999 > >Venue: Dvortsovaya nab., 18, Institute of Oriental Studies (Novomikhailovsky Palace), the Green Hall. > >April 14, 1999, Wednesday. 11.00 > >Conference Opening. Address of the Guest of Honour: Mrs Nirupama Rao, Deputy >Chief of Mission (Embassy of India in Moscow). > >Mikhail N. BOGOLYUBOV (SPb State University). Avestan aethra- (*aithra-) >'school', aethrya- 'schoolboy' and Vedic adhyetar (*adhi-aitar). >Margarita F. ALBEDIL (Institute of Ethnology). Proto-Indian system of writing >and mythological thinking. >Alexei A. VIGASIN (Moscow State University). Greek-Indian dialog in the middle of the 3rd century BCE. >Alexandr M. DUBIANSKY (Moscow State University). On the problem of the interaction between Southern and Northern cultural tradition. > >April 14, Wednesday, 1999. 15.00 > >Svetlana S.NEVELEVA (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies). Epic azvamedha - 2: Arjuna's raid. >Yaroslav V. VASSILKOV (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies). On the original semantic model of Ancient Indian terms meaning "God". >Julia KOKOVA (SPb State University). "Let NArAyaNa protect me!": On the genre charachteristic of a text from the BhAgavata-purANa. > >April 15, Thursday. 11.00 > >Victoria G. LYSENKO (Institute of Philosophy, Moscow). The Discontinuous and the Continuous in the 2nd kANDa of the VAkyapadIya. >Michael HILAIN (Sorbonne, France). Memory and Unconcious in the Yoga-SUtras. >Andrei PARIBOK (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies). On the notion of skandha-s. > >April 15, Thursday. 15.00 > >Dmitry N. LELYUKHIN (Moscow Institute of Oriental Studies). The "grants" of the SAtavAhanas: problems of interpretation. >Sergei S. TAWASTSTJERNA (SPb State University). What are the "bad" words? >Maxim A. VOROSHILOV (SPb State University). ASTAngahRdaya-saMhitA by VAgbhaTa - a text of Ayurvedic tradition. >Svetlana O. TSVETKOVA (SPb State University). 'Zabda' in Classical Sanskrit definition of Poetry. > >April 16, Friday. 11.00 > >Lev N. MEN'SHIKOV (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies).. On some specific features of the aesthetic system in the "Lotus Sutra". >Nikita V. GUROV (SPb State University). The image of the World Tree in Telugu Epic Songs. >Elena K. BROSALINA (SPb State University). Some ethnolinguistic peculiarities of the "ZrI RAmakRSNa's Revelation". >Irina V. KOZYREVA (SPb State University). "Colour terminology" in Bengali: major approaches. >Tatiana A. DUBIANSKAYA (Moscow State University). New ideology and traditional poetics in the novels by Jaishankar Prasad. >Marina V. OREL'SKAYA (SPb State University). Two versions of the "Abhinaya-darpana" by Nandikezvara. > > Burt Thorp English Department University of North Dakota Grand Forks ND 58202-7209 From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Apr 20 07:13:31 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 99 11:13:31 +0400 Subject: XXth Zograph Conference at St Petersburg Message-ID: <161227048165.23782.14716100137274814346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, below is the programme of the latest Indological event at St Petersburg (Russia), which can give you an idea of basic trends and range of topics in Indian studies here. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov XXth ZOGRAPH CONFERENCE "TRADITIONAL INDIAN TEXTS: PROBLEMS OF INTERPRETATION" St Petersburg, April 14-16, 1999 Venue: Dvortsovaya nab., 18, Institute of Oriental Studies (Novomikhailovsky Palace), the Green Hall. April 14, 1999, Wednesday. 11.00 Conference Opening. Address of the Guest of Honour: Mrs Nirupama Rao, Deputy Chief of Mission (Embassy of India in Moscow). Mikhail N. BOGOLYUBOV (SPb State University). Avestan aethra- (*aithra-) 'school', aethrya- 'schoolboy' and Vedic adhyetar (*adhi-aitar). Margarita F. ALBEDIL (Institute of Ethnology). Proto-Indian system of writing and mythological thinking. Alexei A. VIGASIN (Moscow State University). Greek-Indian dialog in the middle of the 3rd century BCE. Alexandr M. DUBIANSKY (Moscow State University). On the problem of the interaction between Southern and Northern cultural tradition. April 14, Wednesday, 1999. 15.00 Svetlana S.NEVELEVA (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies). Epic azvamedha - 2: Arjuna's raid. Yaroslav V. VASSILKOV (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies). On the original semantic model of Ancient Indian terms meaning "God". Julia KOKOVA (SPb State University). "Let NArAyaNa protect me!": On the genre charachteristic of a text from the BhAgavata-purANa. April 15, Thursday. 11.00 Victoria G. LYSENKO (Institute of Philosophy, Moscow). The Discontinuous and the Continuous in the 2nd kANDa of the VAkyapadIya. Michael HILAIN (Sorbonne, France). Memory and Unconcious in the Yoga-SUtras. Andrei PARIBOK (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies). On the notion of skandha-s. April 15, Thursday. 15.00 Dmitry N. LELYUKHIN (Moscow Institute of Oriental Studies). The "grants" of the SAtavAhanas: problems of interpretation. Sergei S. TAWASTSTJERNA (SPb State University). What are the "bad" words? Maxim A. VOROSHILOV (SPb State University). ASTAngahRdaya-saMhitA by VAgbhaTa - a text of Ayurvedic tradition. Svetlana O. TSVETKOVA (SPb State University). 'Zabda' in Classical Sanskrit definition of Poetry. April 16, Friday. 11.00 Lev N. MEN'SHIKOV (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies).. On some specific features of the aesthetic system in the "Lotus Sutra". Nikita V. GUROV (SPb State University). The image of the World Tree in Telugu Epic Songs. Elena K. BROSALINA (SPb State University). Some ethnolinguistic peculiarities of the "ZrI RAmakRSNa's Revelation". Irina V. KOZYREVA (SPb State University). "Colour terminology" in Bengali: major approaches. Tatiana A. DUBIANSKAYA (Moscow State University). New ideology and traditional poetics in the novels by Jaishankar Prasad. Marina V. OREL'SKAYA (SPb State University). Two versions of the "Abhinaya-darpana" by Nandikezvara. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Apr 20 18:33:51 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 99 11:33:51 -0700 Subject: Hyderbad and Mysore Message-ID: <161227048184.23782.3652583493583204407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The Academy of Sanskrit Research in Melkote is headed by > M.A.LaksmiTatachar, who can be reached by email , It is actually tAtAchAr = tAtai (Tamil/Kannada) + AchAr = Father-Teacher _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Apr 20 15:10:41 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 99 16:10:41 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN: thread closed!] Re: BJP Govt. Falls: My Question Is, So What? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048179.23782.11536680705882816412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This thread is hereby decisively closed. The discussion of contemporary politics in India has never been welcome on this list. INDOLOGY was created specifically for the discussion of Classical India. There are numerous appropriate forums for discussing the fall of the BJP government, etc. There are NOT numerous alternative forums for Classical Indian studies. Please respect the integrity of this list, and its specific mission. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Apr 20 15:16:47 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 99 16:16:47 +0100 Subject: Hyderbad and Mysore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048182.23782.4313727935196783844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Prof P Kumar wrote: > If you are looking for Agamas in Mysore area there is a place called > Melkote about less than an hour by bus from Mysore. They have some Agama > manuscripts; The Academy of Sanskrit Research in Melkote is headed by M.A.LaksmiTatachar, who can be reached by email , and has published some catalogues of its holdings. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk, FAX: +44 171 611 8545 Wellcome Institute for URL: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/ the History of Medicine, Email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wellcome Trust, 183 Euston Road, Trust URL: http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/library London NW1 2BE, England. From pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Apr 21 00:09:53 1999 From: pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (P. Cooper) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 99 17:09:53 -0700 Subject: Kailash mountain In-Reply-To: <19990413124113.29447.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048186.23782.1799322174898994604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > What is your thought on uttara Ramayana and MBh. portions of Shiva and > Mt. Kailash? Early centuries of the common era?? Given the notorious difficulty of this question (dating the epics), the dates you mention seem about as accurate and specific as one can reasonably suggest. Review of your initial posting reminded me of one important issue I neglected to address in my earlier response: that of the location/identity of Kailasa. It is unclear, from the classical sources I consulted (epics, kavya, Puranas, tantric literature) whether the Kailasa described therein may be identified with any earthly mountain, much less the mountain in Tibet that today bears that name. Yes, there are descriptions of Kailasa's location in the north, but these are typically vague, and the lush, fantastic descriptions of Kailasa don't tally at all with the ecological reality of the Tibetan plateau. As far as I could determine, it is not until the 16th or 17th centuries that we find more detailed and seemingly reliable Indian references to Kailasa as a specific geographical location. Again, I'd be happy to provide details if desired. Sorry for the delay in responding. Regards, Paul Cooper From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 01:47:55 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 99 18:47:55 -0700 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227049138.23782.15333556858231470465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >the Gadval plates assertion that in c. 674 A.D. the Chalukya > king Vikramaditya I first sacked Kancipuram and then continued >southwards as far as Uragapura on the Kaveri. It seems > perfectly reasonable, moreover to equate THAT Uragapura >with the one Kalidas mentioned a couple centuries earlier, [but as a >city of Pandyas]. Forgot to ask last time, Uraiyur, supposed to be uragapura of Gadval plates, is intriguing. Just one or two decades before, Mahendravarman has excavated the cave temple at Tiruchy - the famous Gangadhara panel in the Rockfort. Was any area around Kaveri brought under Pandyas between say, 640-680 AD? I thought Pallavas were reigning supreme in the Chola realm then and Pandyas have not risen at all. V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Apr 20 15:45:30 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 99 19:45:30 +0400 Subject: Zograph Conference: correction Message-ID: <161227048188.23782.1296533870314861620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, I made a mistake in the name of our French participant, Prof. M. HULAIN. Ya.V. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 11:42:57 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 99 04:42:57 -0700 Subject: Kailash mountain Message-ID: <161227048195.23782.11089404887683218076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Dr. Cooper for the valuable info in 2 emails. Hopefully, I will read your publication on Mt. Kailash in the future. Kind regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 12:11:57 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 99 05:11:57 -0700 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048197.23782.10759670316956052869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >the Gadval plates assertion that in c. 674 A.D. the Chalukya >king Vikramaditya I first sacked Kancipuram and then continued >southwards as far as Uragapura on the Kaveri. It seems >perfectly reasonable, moreover to equate THAT Uragapura >with the one Kalidas mentioned a couple centuries earlier, [but as a >city of Pandyas]. The Chalukya plates are interesting. From the point of history, Kalabhras were ruling in the Chola country around 5th century. Accuta Vikkantan was ruling from Nandi hills, he sponsored Buddhist works in Pali and Tamil. A poem included in Veeracoziyam grammar's commentary has a poem on this Kalabhra king, though generally Kalabhras (KaLappirar) are Jains. I think it was KaDumkOn2, the first Pandya (after sangam era Pandyas) along with a Pallava (KaaDuveTTi) who put an end to Kalabhra interrugnum. It looks by 5th century Kalabhras are the real kings in Chola and Pandya countries. Either Kalidasa must be earlier, or he uses the data on Pandyas, uraga (hAlAsya), tAmbraparni, pearls etc., for Pandya country from earlier tradition. BTW, does anyone have access to: Mark Collins (b.1866), The geographical data of Raghuvamsa and Dasakumaracarita, Leipzig, 1907. V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pahlke at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Wed Apr 21 09:18:08 1999 From: pahlke at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Michael Pahlke) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 99 11:18:08 +0200 Subject: Tripitaka of the Vipassana Research Institute Message-ID: <161227048190.23782.13905619596440499327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Because access to other Versions of the Tripitaka is limited in Nepal, it is most convinient for me to use the Tripitaka published since 1993 by the "Vipassana Research Institute" (Igatpuri), which belongs to the vipassana movement of Sri Goenka. This edition reproduces the version decided upon at the Sixth Council held 1954 at Rangoon, i.e. the so-called "Burmese" or "Chattha-Sangayana" Version. Since the edition does regrettably not note alternative readings, I would be grateful for informed opinion on the following two points: 1) As a general tendency, how to rate the readings of the Burmese edition from the perspective of higher textul criticism? 2) How reliable does the Tripitaka edition published by the "Vipassana Research Institute" reproduce the Burmese edition. I.e. how frequent are typos? Have readings anywhere by changed on purpose? A last question in this respect, again for someone well acuainted with Tripitaka edition published by the "Vipassana Research Institute". : On p. [xviii] of the first volume (Dighanikaya, part 1), the editors state that their edition has been cross-referenced with that of the PTS. I fail, however, to find any reference to the pagination of the PTS edition in the running text of the Tripitaka edition published by the "Vipassana Research Institute". Is there a "trick" which has eluded me? Any help with the above querries would be greatly appreciated. Dr. Alexander v. Rospatt Tel.: 00-977-1-271018 Nepal Research Center Fax: 00-977-1-474463 PO Box 180 Kathmandu, Nepal From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Wed Apr 21 10:05:54 1999 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Vielle Christophe) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 99 12:05:54 +0200 Subject: A text dealing with Ayurveda In-Reply-To: <19990420183351.29779.rocketmail@web305.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227048191.23782.8535455486577379686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I am examining for the moment an unpublished saMhitA of "purANic" type (its content is principally formed by stories about different mythical characters), but in the middle of the text appears suddenly a chapter dealing with physiological/embryological matters. Here is an abstract, in which sAMkhya/Ayurveda conceptions are exposed (e.g. "form"-rUpa as one of the five "subtle elements"-tanmAtra, corresponding to the fire as one of the five "gross elements"; dhAtus or principles etc.). Here is an abstract babhUva rUpatanmAtraM puruSecchApracoditAt rupatanmAtrato vahniH sambabhUva vikurvataH vizeSavittvaM rUpasya cakSuSo jAyate yataH guNadivyAkRtijJatvaM vyaktisaMsthAtvam eva ca prakAzAtmatvam ity agne rUpatanmAtravRttayaH uddyotanaM tu dhAtUnAM dravIkaraNam eva ca adanaM pacanaM pAnaM zoSaNaM himamardanaM kSuttRSNotpAdanAtmatvaM... It is also mentionned in the same chapter that the semen introduced into the womb of the woman by the man at the time of coition will get mixed with the blood in the womb, and that the issue will be male, female or hermaphrodite (napuMsaka) according to the proportion of the mixture: if blood exceeds semen the issue will be a girl, if semen exceeds it will be a boy, and if both are equal the child will be a hermaphrodite. Since I am not a specialist of such matters at all, my question is if those elements remember to someone a specific text or if it is a kind of physiological "common view" (I heard that in the Agni-PurANa there exist also passages of that type). Moreover, since my text comes from South India and could be dated arround the eight century AD, I would like to know if these data are not incompatible with such a dating hypothesis (based on a serie of other elements). Thank you very much. Dr. Christophe Vielle Institut orientaliste Coll?ge Erasme Place Blaise Pascal 1 B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve (Belgium) Tel. 32+10+47 49 54 From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Wed Apr 21 11:39:39 1999 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Vielle Christophe) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 99 13:39:39 +0200 Subject: A text dealing with Ayurveda -correction Message-ID: <161227048193.23782.18149225938848456214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the horrible mistake: read extract for "abstract" in my text! Dr. Christophe Vielle Institut orientaliste Coll?ge Erasme Place Blaise Pascal 1 B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve (Belgium) Tel. 32+10+47 49 54 From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 21:32:02 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 99 14:32:02 -0700 Subject: A text dealing with Ayurveda Message-ID: <161227048202.23782.4622224343220982570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm going to indulge in what seems like a minor nitpick, but turns out to be a point that often goes unnoticed. Vielle Christophe wrote: >... Here is an abstract, in >which sAMkhya/Ayurveda conceptions are exposed (e.g. "form"-rUpa as one of >the five "subtle elements"-tanmAtra, corresponding to the fire as one of >the five "gross elements"; dhAtus or principles etc.). Here is an abstract > >babhUva rUpatanmAtraM puruSecchApracoditAt ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It is incorrect to label this as a sAMkhyan conception. In the sAMkhya school, the transformations of material nature are for the sake of purusha (purushArtha), but never due to the desire of the purusha (purushecchA). The purusha is devoid of any agency, so that any desire or will would be ascribed by sAMkhya to a transformation of the internal organ (antaHkaraNa-vRtti). And as the antaHkaraNa is itself composed of transformations of prakRti (avyakta, mahat and ahaMkAra), all agency is removed from purusha. It is not right to ascribe a "sAMkhyan" origin to every passage that uses terms like tanmAtra, purusha, prakRti etc. They are as likely to be vedAntic terms, for example. Indeed, the use of purushecchA in the above extract seems to resonate more with the brahmasUtra (kAmAc ca na anumAna-apekshA) than with any sAMkhyan conception. Unless of course, one uses "sAMkhya" to refer not to a school of philosophy, but to any system of knowledge that is said to lead to liberation. >It is also mentionned in the same chapter that the semen introduced into >the womb of the woman by the man at the time of coition will get mixed with >the blood in the womb, and that the issue will be male, female or >hermaphrodite (napuMsaka) according to the proportion of the mixture: if >blood exceeds semen the issue will be a girl, if semen exceeds it will be a >boy, and if both are equal the child will be a hermaphrodite. This is probably to be found in Ayurvedic texts, but I doubt if sAMkhyan texts refer to it. vAcaspati miSra's sAMkhyatattvakaumudI mentions that the hair and blood come from the mother, while arteries, bones and marrow come from the father. However, it sounds like a generic enough description that could have parallels or ancestors in other purANic texts. Also check the Mahabharata. There is bound to be something in it. SikhaNDin and bRhannala offer sufficient context to introduce a discussion on the causes that normally determine a child's gender. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Wed Apr 21 13:06:57 1999 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 99 15:06:57 +0200 Subject: Tripitaka of the Vipassana Research Institute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048211.23782.16879359535000012621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Pahlke writes: > by the "Vipassana Research Institute" (Igatpuri), which belongs to the > vipassana movement of Sri Goenka. This edition reproduces the version > decided upon at the Sixth Council held 1954 at Rangoon, i.e. the > so-called "Burmese" or "Chattha-Sangayana" Version. > > Since the edition does regrettably not note alternative readings, I > would be grateful for informed opinion on the following two points: > > 1) As a general tendency, how to rate the readings of the Burmese > edition from the perspective of higher textul criticism? There is an article by Frank Richard Hamm which presents an evaluation of different editions of the Pali Tripitaka, the original German version: "Zu einigen neueren Ausgaben des Pali-Tipitaka," in: ZDMG. 112. 1962, pp. 353-378; the English version ("On some recent editions of the Pali Tipitaka") was published in: German scholars on India...ed. by the Cultural Dept. of the Embassy of the Fed.Rep. of Germany, New Delhi. Varanasi: Chowkhamba Sanskrit Ser. Office, 1973, pp. 123-135. In the past years Oskar von Hinueber published some articles on the South-East Asian manuscript transmission of the Pali canon. So far I know, a comprehensive study is still lacking. > A last question in this respect, again for someone well acuainted with > Tripitaka edition published by the "Vipassana Research Institute". : > On p. [xviii] of the first volume (Dighanikaya, part 1), the editors > state that their edition has been cross-referenced with that of the PTS. > I fail, however, to find any reference to the pagination of the PTS > edition in the running text of the Tripitaka edition published by the > "Vipassana Research Institute". Is there a "trick" which has eluded me? I never used the "Vipassana" edition, so I don't know how to use it; the older Nalanda Devanagari edition by Bhikkhu Jagadish Kashyap et al. gives full pages references to other editions of the canon. Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Universitaet Bonn From pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Apr 21 22:59:28 1999 From: pcooper at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (P. Cooper) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 99 15:59:28 -0700 Subject: Kailash mountain In-Reply-To: <19990421114257.11119.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048204.23782.1918984850610405301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > Thanks, Dr. Cooper for the valuable info in 2 emails. > Hopefully, I will read your publication on Mt. Kailash > in the future. It's my pleasure, but I feel compelled to state for the record that I am but a humble graduate student. I would like to do further work on this subject in the future. However, given my current status and workload, I think it's unfortunately a bit premature to be speaking of a publication of mine on Kailasa. Regards, Paul Cooper From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 20:33:53 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 99 16:33:53 -0400 Subject: Ref. needed to nilabindu Message-ID: <161227048719.23782.727053078288818325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Scholars: A colleague has asked me to forward a request for the names of texts that mention or refer to the phrase "nIlabindu". Thanks in advance, Harry Spier _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Apr 21 20:54:28 1999 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 99 20:54:28 +0000 Subject: Did the Sarasvati ever flow to the sea? Message-ID: <161227048198.23782.5670518333754782353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, The following references and links relate to an ongoing 140-year old debate: was the Mihran a Himalayan river independent of Indus: Possehl, Gregory L. 1998? Did the Sarasvati ever flow to the sea?.? In Philips, C. S., Potts, D. T. and Searight, S., editors,? Arabia and its Neighbors: Essays on prehistorical and historical developments presented in honor of Beatrice de Cardi.?? Brussels:Brepols, pp. 339-354. http://sarasvati.listbot.com/ (View the List Archive) http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/kach/rannofkutch1.html Regards, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Wed Apr 21 18:35:39 1999 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 00:05:39 +0530 Subject: Indological books Message-ID: <161227048200.23782.7673353352524349387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please see a few interesting titles here. You can make direct orders with M/S Swantham Books. SWANTHAM BOOKS Kailasam T.C.9/1050 Mangalam Lane Sasthamangalam P.O. Trivandrum Kerala, India. Pin. 695 010 Phone No: (0471) 326795 E-mail: swantham at techpark.net Business Terms 1. For all direct purchases made by individuals and institutions 20% discount will be allowed. Packing and postage free. 2. For Booksellers terms are negotiable. PUBLICATIONS 1. ADVAITAVEDANTA, DIALECTICS AND INDIAN PHILOSOPHY. K.Maheswaran Nair, Ph.D. Foreword E.M.S.Namboodiripad. HB, Demy 1/8, pp 124 Price Rs. 200/- ($50) ISBN 81- 87084 - 00 - 6 "I hope that the publication of this volume together with this foreword of mine, will give rise to lots of discussion on the pre and post-Sankara Indian philosophy" ? E.M.S. Namboodiripad says in the foreword of the book. Philosophy and Scientific Temper, Dialectics in Advaitavedanta, the Adhikarana method and the concept of Triad: a dialectical comparison, Advaitavedantic logic of social justice, A brief note on the comparison of Marxism and the concept of avathara, Basic trends of conflict in philosophy, Philosophic foundations of Indian Culture and Adrsta and Apurva in Indian philosophy are the papers in the volume. 2. JAGANNATHAPANDITA ON ALANKARAS Dr. Mavelikkara Achuthan Foreword by Dr.N.P.Unni HB Demi 1/8 pp 232 Price Rs. 300/- ($70) ISBN 81- 87084 ? 04 - 9 The alankaras with special reference to which the monograph is written are Upama, Atisayokti, Asama, Udaharana, Praudhokti, Lalitam, Praharsana, Visadana, Ullasa, Avajna, Anujna and Tiraskara the last being a figure identified, defined and illustrated by the Panditaraja himself for the first time. The deep and detailed study of the selected alankaras is really penetrating and it bears testimony to the author's intimate knowledge of the text of standard works in Sanskrit rhetoric. The exposition of Upama and Atisayokti the two most important alankaras is particularly remarkable on account of its comparative and critical approach - Dr.P.K.Narayana Pillai. 3. MANUSCRIPTOLOGY K.Maheswaran Nair, Ph.D. Foreword Dr.N.P.Unni HB Demi 1/8 pp260 Price Rs. 500/- ($100) ISBN 81- 87084 ? 02 - 2 This is the only comprehensive book available on Manuscriptology. Definition, nature, scope, branches and aim of Manuscriptology, Cultural history in outline, Language spoken and written, History of writing, Orientology, Indology and Manuscriptology, Collection, cataloguing and preservation of manuscripts, Manuscripts Libraries, Reading the scripts, Textual criticism and edition, Publication of Manuscripts, Manuscriptology and Computer and New Manuscriptology are the topics dealt with in the book. List of important MSS Libraries of India abroad, List of organizations, periodicals etc., Sanskrit sayings and other useful appendices are added. All the scripts of Indian MSS have been given. A comprehensive glossary of terms and an extensive bibliography are also very useful for students, teachers and all interested in Manuscriptology. 4. SAUNDARYALAHARI OF SRISANKARA - A STUDY Dr.N.Seetha HB Demi 1/8 pp 240 Price Rs.400 ($90) ISBN 81- 87084 ? 03 ?0 This is the Ph.D. thesis of Dr.Seetha published in book form. The study commences with an introduction giving a short account of the stotra literature of Sanskrit with special reference to Saundaryalahari. Chapters are assigned to the contents of the work, its poetic beauty, Saundaryalahari as an epitome of Saktism, philosophical aspects of Saundaryalahari, modes of worship practiced in it and a comparative study with other works so as to see how far Sankara was influenced by his preceptor Gaudapada and how far later poets were influenced by Sankara. 5. SVATMAYOGAPRADIPAPRABODHINI - AN EDITION AND STUDY Dr. P.Chithambaran Foreword by Dr.T.Devarajan HB Demi 1/8 pp 316 Price Rs. 400/ ($80) ISBN 81- 87084 ? 06 - 5 The book has two parts, one being the study of the work and the other, a critical edition of the work. The merit of the treatise is that it reviews the most comprehensive ideas of a vast subject, the Advaita Vedanta in an accurate, well-arranged and readable manner. The author substantiates his views by quoting Upanisads and other scriptures. Another importance of this work is that it was written at a time when the Advaita Vedanta was facing a setback at the hands of the Dvaitins and Visistadvaitins. For the above reasons, the present work of Amarananda has an important place among the Prakarana treatises of Advaita Vedanta. From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 11:11:01 1999 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 07:11:01 -0400 Subject: Ref. needed to nilabindu Message-ID: <161227048219.23782.9310499977770792371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Scholars: A colleague has asked me to forward a request for the names of texts that mention or refer to the phrase "nIlabindu". Thanks in advance, Harry Spier _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Apr 22 01:58:27 1999 From: panini at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (K. S. Arjunwadkar) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 07:28:27 +0530 Subject: Unsubscribe Message-ID: <161227048215.23782.17781388687975457611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> April 22, 99 I write this to unsubscribe to the list. Thank you. KSA From boudalfa at STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Thu Apr 22 05:44:49 1999 From: boudalfa at STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Heike Boudalfa) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 07:44:49 +0200 Subject: Tips for study-tour to India Message-ID: <161227048207.23782.2878850322414440580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Nayak, I will visit India in July to study Sanskrit there, and this is the first time for me to go there. Therefore I'd be very much interested in your information. The german version would be best for me. Thank you very much in advance Yours sincerely Heike Boudalfa ---------- Von: Anand Nayak An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Betreff: Re: Tips for study-tour to India Datum: Montag, 19. April 1999 11:45 Dear Indologists, I have in the past organised thrice indological study tours to India. There were each time 32 participants from Europe. Now several students come for tips to organise their own private and individual study-tours and so I have drawn up a text in French entitled "Voyage en solitaire en Inde. Conseils d'un Indien habitant en Europe" and the same in German :"Allein reisen in Indien. Ratschldge eines in Europa lebenden Inders". I would like to make it available to the members of this list. It is about 4 pages long, explaining mostly the practical problems of the Indian situation which often gives a shock to a gentle Westerner.If you are interested in it, please send me an e-mail. I would be happy to receive in return comments and critique. A. Nayak PS: The text is not available for the moment in English. I can produce an English version if there is interest for it. Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universiti de Fribourg Route du Jura CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK ---------- From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Apr 22 15:11:59 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 08:11:59 -0700 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048225.23782.11236512485891342459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I found this interesting post from Religion in South Asia arcives (RISA-L). Paranavitana's editing may be dated. If you answer to Indology or to Dr. Leslie C. Orr (orr at vax2.concordia.ca), please send me a copy of the reply also. SM ----------------------------------------------------------------- * Subject: trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka * From: ORR at vax2.concordia.ca * Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 Dear Colleagues-- I have just come across an inscription, published in Epigraphia Zeylanica, vol 3 (1928-33), called the "Galle Trilingual Slab" which was discovered in Galle in 1911. It records the gift of gold, silver, cloth, etc. for worship, and is written in Tamil, Persian, and Chinese. The epigraphist (S. Paranavitana), along with earlier interpreters, regards the object of worship is being different in the case of each of the three records (a Hindu deity, a Muslim saint, and the Buddha, respectively), but this seems to me highly unlikely. I wonder if any of you know whether further examinations of this inscription have been made since the time of its publication in EZ, or whether further scholarship on the religious context of Sri Lanka in the period of the inscription (c. 1400 AD) might illuminate its significance. Thank you for any suggestions or information you may have. Best wishes --Leslie Orr Dept. of Religion Concordia University Montreal, Quebec Canada H3G 1M8 orr at vax2.concordia.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA Thu Apr 22 12:29:17 1999 From: BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (GHOSE,LYNKEN,MR) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 08:29:17 -0400 Subject: passi's address Message-ID: <161227048221.23782.6671244405064938703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology List: Does anyone have Alessandro Passi's address or email address. He did a translation of the Saundarananda of As'vaghos.a into Italian fairly recently (circa 1988?). Thank you, Lynken Ghose McGill University From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ Thu Apr 22 08:44:58 1999 From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 08:44:58 +0000 Subject: A text dealing with Ayurveda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048209.23782.7969091737293695382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For puranic embryology cf.: VAyu: 14.15-24 Linga: I.88.47-55 BRhannAradIya: 30 (SaMsAravarNana) Skanda: I.ii.49.45-61 VarAha: 125.14-17 For relevant sAMkhya texts see: MATharavRtti on SAMkhyakArikA 39 GauDapAda on SAMkhyakArikA 39, 43 SuvarNasaptatizAstra on SAMkhyakArikA 39 > but in the middle of the text appears suddenly a chapter > dealing with physiological/embryological matters. -- Lubomir Ondracka --------------------------------------------- Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies Charles University Namesti Jana Palacha 2 116 38 Prague 1 Czech Republic --------------------------------------------- e-mail: ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz --------------------------------------------- From David.Jonsson at DJK.SE Thu Apr 22 09:15:14 1999 From: David.Jonsson at DJK.SE (David Jonsson) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 11:15:14 +0200 Subject: Mahabharata and Ramayana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048213.23782.14709198747574664579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am new to this list. Which translations to English or Swedish do you recommend? I am also interested in Vymaanika Shastra and I have ordered the book Vimana Aircraft Of Ancient India And Atlantis by David Hatcher Childress. Is this a good source? David From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Thu Apr 22 15:56:42 1999 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 11:56:42 -0400 Subject: House construction in Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro Message-ID: <161227048227.23782.12979984731042525685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harappan and Mohenjodaro cultures used kiln-baked-clay-brick for the construction of their houses. What material did they use to glue the bricks together? Any reference? Alok Kumar From David.Jonsson at DJK.SE Thu Apr 22 10:16:53 1999 From: David.Jonsson at DJK.SE (David Jonsson) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 12:16:53 +0200 Subject: Unsubscribe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048217.23782.12067791897369779161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are you disappointed with something? You shold not send your unsubscribe to this address. >?From the initial mail: "You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF INDOLOGY" command to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK" David At 07:28 1999-04-22 +0530, you wrote: >April 22, 99 > >I write this to unsubscribe to the list. Thank you. >KSA > From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Thu Apr 22 13:44:02 1999 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 15:44:02 +0200 Subject: address of Prof. R. Thapar Message-ID: <161227048243.23782.13745435836321417668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Romila Thapar is said to reside at present in the USA. Does anyone know her address (email or other)? Thanks in advance Harry Falk From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Apr 22 15:58:20 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 15:58:20 +0000 Subject: [Admin] Re: Indological books In-Reply-To: <199904211827.SAA29881@gate.techpark.net> Message-ID: <161227048231.23782.8043016581479908154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair, swantham at techpark.net, has posted an advertisement to the INDOLOGY list for the publisher Swantham Books. Two of the books listed are actually by Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair, which is indeed the kind of information which we like to encourage INDOLOGY members to share. However, the posting is cast as a blatant advertisement for the commercial services of a publisher, and I am afraid I have to cancel Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair's INDOLOGY subscription, since he has so clearly contravened the guidelines for INDOLOGY membership and use. This is *not* a suitable place for company advertisements. On the other hand, if you have yourself written books etc., please feel free to mention them as a collegial communication to other members. Publishers may contact me directly to discuss providing a link to their information via the INDOLOGY website. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT Thu Apr 22 16:31:59 1999 From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 17:31:59 +0100 Subject: passi's address In-Reply-To: <22APR99.09167346.0065.MUSIC@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> Message-ID: <161227048233.23782.17397029837482186394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 22 Apr 99, at 8:29 GHOSE,LYNKEN,MR wrote: > Does anyone have Alessandro Passi's address or email address. He did > a translation of the Saundarananda of As'vaghos.a into Italian fairly > recently (circa 1988?). passi at biblio.cineca.it ---------------------- Paolo Magnone p.magnone at agora.stm.it From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Thu Apr 22 16:00:11 1999 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 18:00:11 +0200 Subject: Axial Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048229.23782.684105132649147959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > know of any recent discussions of what Jaspers called the "Axial Age" in > South Asia. I tend to think that this idea has limited value, though I > have not read anything or thought about it for a long time. Does > anybody have any suggestions? Didn't Samuel Eisenstadt edit a series of Volumes? The German series title goes like: Kulturen der Achsenzeit. I guess English translations of the same exist (or is it the other way round!). Esp. Vol. 2, 4 and 5 (from 1987, 1992, 1992 respectively, Suhrkamp Verlag) 'd be of interest to you. These volumes contains contributions from David Shulman (2), A.K.Ramanujan (translation of his excellant essay: Wjen mirrors are the windows - an anthology of reflexions), Hermann Kulke et al. Regards, --Sreenivas From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Thu Apr 22 22:14:49 1999 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 18:14:49 -0400 Subject: address of Prof. R. Thapar In-Reply-To: <371F27A1.92B288E9@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <161227048245.23782.3497981379396745235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> She is at Smith College, Northampton MA 01063, USA. I would try the Department of History as a guess. I don't know that she will be here too much longer. Alf Hiltebeitel Director, Human Sciences Program Columbian School Professor of Religion and Human Sciences The George Washington University Phillips Hall 412 Washington, D.C., 20052 202/ 994-4297 Fax: 202/ 994-7034 Department of Religion 2106 G St., NW Washington, D.C. 20052 202/ 994-6325 or 202/ 994-1674 Fax: 202/ 994-9379 On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Harry Falk wrote: > Prof. Romila Thapar is said to reside at present in the USA. Does > anyone know her address (email or other)? > Thanks in advance > Harry Falk > From bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Thu Apr 22 19:22:56 1999 From: bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Volker Thewalt) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 21:22:56 +0200 Subject: House construction in Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro In-Reply-To: <371F46B9.B5D813FD@oswego.edu> Message-ID: <161227048238.23782.5136446089442504157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Jansen from Aachen Technical University (Germany) has done extensive research in Mohenjo Daro in the 80s ... maybe he could help you regarding your question. Unfortunately I don't have the email, but possibly somebody else could help ??? Best, Volker At 11:56 22.04.99 -0400, you wrote: >Harappan and Mohenjodaro cultures used kiln-baked-clay-brick for the >construction of their houses. What material did they use to glue the bricks >together? Any reference? >Alok Kumar > > --------------------------------- LaserSatz Thewalt Dr. Volker Thewalt Kapellenweg 8 D-69257 Wiesenbach fon 06223/970122 fax 06223/970123 http://www.thewalt.de http://www.w3pro.de http://www.uebersatz.de e-mail: vt at thewalt.de --------------------------------- From bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Thu Apr 22 21:06:03 1999 From: bq8 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Volker Thewalt) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 23:06:03 +0200 Subject: Buddh. Rockcarvings in Northern Pakistan Message-ID: <161227048240.23782.3376859333060303091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Buddhist Rock-Carvings and Inscriptions in Northern Pakistan. At http://www.thewalt.de/verlag.htm those interested in the northern ways of Buddhism will find some links to articles and work in progress -- most of them in German, but translations into English are being prepared. Of course it would be most interesting to do a thorough documentation of the carvings and graffiti on the Indian side... --- any offer is highly welcome! Best, Volker Thewalt --------------------------------- LaserSatz Thewalt Dr. Volker Thewalt Kapellenweg 8 D-69257 Wiesenbach fon 06223/970122 fax 06223/970123 http://www.thewalt.de http://www.w3pro.de http://www.uebersatz.de e-mail: vt at thewalt.de --------------------------------- From hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK Thu Apr 22 23:11:02 1999 From: hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK (David Lawrence) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 23:11:02 +0000 Subject: Axial Age In-Reply-To: <005601be88e9$3a4dfe60$e9fbcdc3@Optimusnet> Message-ID: <161227048222.23782.11894897462855248896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello everyone, A colleague of mine in Chinese history recently asked me whether I know of any recent discussions of what Jaspers called the "Axial Age" in South Asia. I tend to think that this idea has limited value, though I have not read anything or thought about it for a long time. Does anybody have any suggestions? Thank you, David Lawrence Division of Humanities, Hong Kong University of Science an Technology From lh57061 at HONGO.ECC.U-TOKYO.AC.JP Thu Apr 22 18:50:55 1999 From: lh57061 at HONGO.ECC.U-TOKYO.AC.JP (Jae-sung Kim (Jung Won)) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 03:50:55 +0900 Subject: Tripitaka of the Vipassana Research Institute In-Reply-To: <371D97CF.4CD5EED4@uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <161227048235.23782.7919729981317379778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Alexander v. Rospatt, I usually do not use Tripitaka edition published by the "Vipassana Research Institute(VRI)".But I frequently use CD-ROM of VRI. I think it's very useful for researching. And you can find cross-referenc of PTS editions in this CD-ROM edition. On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:18:08 +0200 $B!$ (BMichael Pahlke wrote ; > 1) As a general tendency, how to rate the readings of the Burmese > edition from the perspective of higher textul criticism? > 2) How reliable does the Tripitaka edition published by the "Vipassana > Research Institute" reproduce the Burmese edition. I.e. how frequent are >typos? > Have readings anywhere by changed on purpose? > A last question in this respect, again for someone well acuainted with > Tripitaka edition published by the "Vipassana Research Institute". : > On p. [xviii] of the first volume (Dighanikaya, part 1), the editors > state that their edition has been cross-referenced with that of the PTS. > I fail, however, to find any reference to the pagination of the PTS > edition in the running text of the Tripitaka edition published by the > "Vipassana Research Institute". Is there a "trick" which has eluded me? ----------- KIM Jae-sung (Jung Won) Department of Indian Philosophy and Buddhist Studies University of Tokyo e-mail : jungwon at l.u-tokyo.ac.jp From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Fri Apr 23 08:18:49 1999 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 04:18:49 -0400 Subject: Parvati Message-ID: <161227048253.23782.5790719912484624634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology Members: I am pleased to announce that my book Parvati, Goddess of Love (Mapin, 1999) has been released. It is a visual though not a coffe table book. This is a sequel to my Parvatidarpana (Motilal Banarasidass, 1997) which was an exposition of Kashmir Shaivism throuogh the marriage of Shiva and Parvati. I would welcome any comments. Harsha V. Dehejia. Harsha V. Dehejia 256, Elgin Street, Ottawa, ON Canada. K2P 1L9. Telephone 613-233-3103 Facsimile 613-829-2560 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Fri Apr 23 07:37:23 1999 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 08:37:23 +0100 Subject: Tripitaka of the Vipassana Research Institute Message-ID: <161227048248.23782.8198357107750930573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Alexander v. Rospatt writes: >Because access to other Versions of the Tripitaka is limited in Nepal, >it is most convinient for me to use the Tripitaka published since 1993 >by the "Vipassana Research Institute" (Igatpuri), which belongs to the >vipassana movement of Sri Goenka. This edition reproduces the version >decided upon at the Sixth Council held 1954 at Rangoon, i.e. the >so-called "Burmese" or "Chattha-Sangayana" Version. I do not have the printed volumes, but the CD (I have versions 1 and 2) should be identical. >Since the edition does regrettably not note alternative readings, I >would be grateful for informed opinion on the following two points: > >1) As a general tendency, how to rate the readings of the Burmese >edition from the perspective of higher textul criticism? I do not think textual criticism has been employed to establish this edition. It is very close to the text of the Fifth Council Edition. So it is essentially an exemplar of the Burmese textual tradition alone. It is best to view it as equivalent to a single very good manuscript, I suppose. It is nowhere near as good as the better PTS editions which used a number of manuscripts etc. It is often better that the worst PTS editions. The major problem is that it tends to adopt the easiest or simplest reading rather than the lectio dificilior. >2) How reliable does the Tripitaka edition published by the "Vipassana >Research >Institute" reproduce the Burmese edition. I.e. how frequent are typos? >Have readings anywhere by changed on purpose? Whenever I have checked it against those Burmese editions I have, it has had few or no errors. Occasionally a typographic error in the Burmese edition has been corrected. I do not know if this is deliberate or inadvertent ! >A last question in this respect, again for someone well acuainted with >Tripitaka edition published by the "Vipassana Research Institute". : >On p. [xviii] of the first volume (Dighanikaya, part 1), the editors >state that their edition has been cross-referenced with that of the PTS. >I fail, however, to find any reference to the pagination of the PTS >edition in the running text of the Tripitaka edition published by the >"Vipassana Research Institute". Is there a "trick" which has eluded me? I can only speak for the CD. Version two has the pagination of the PTS editions inserted - for most but not all texts of which the PTS has published editions. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 23 16:39:38 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 09:39:38 -0700 Subject: Mahabharata and Ramayana Message-ID: <161227048269.23782.1885542359168201309.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You should try the book 'Vimanas in Ancient India' published from Calcutta by the Archeological Survey of India. Besides, a complete Hindi translation by Pundit Brahmadatta Jijnasu has been published by the 'Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi- 110006 Vishal From: David Jonsson Subject: Mahabharata and Ramayana Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:15:14 +0200 I am new to this list. Which translations to English or Swedish do you recommend? I am also interested in Vymaanika Shastra and I have ordered the book Vimana Aircraft Of Ancient India And Atlantis by David Hatcher Childress. Is this a good source? David _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Apr 23 08:43:45 1999 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 09:43:45 +0100 Subject: Axial Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048261.23782.5261726754552895769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Some papers on the concept of Axial Age (in relation to India and the world in >general) have been published several years ago in the first (?) issue of >the materials of a symposium or conference on the Date of The Buddha. >Unfortunately, I am not able to give the exact reference now. >All the best, > Yaroslav Vassilkov The exact reference is: Heinz Bechert (ed.), The Dating of the Historical Buddha, Part 1 (Abhandlungen der Ak. d. Wissenschaften in Goettingen, Phil.-hist. Kl., 3. Folge, Nr. 189), Goettingen, 1991. Chapter VIII ("The Axial Age Theory and the Dates of the Buddha") contains two articles: S.N.Eisenstadt: "The Dispute about the Birthdate of the Buddha from a Comparative Civilizational Perspective", pp. 503-505. Reinhard Wenskus: "Mittel- und Nordeuropa um die Zeit des Buddha: Der religioese Umbruch im barbarischen Europa in der fruehen Eisenzeit", pp. 506-522. Best regards, G.v.Simson From nik.macleod at CHADWYCK.CO.UK Fri Apr 23 09:05:05 1999 From: nik.macleod at CHADWYCK.CO.UK (Nik Macleod) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 10:05:05 +0100 Subject: Axial Age Message-ID: <161227048263.23782.8787502511194362251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Title: Robert C. Richmond (Ed.), Global History of Philosophy. Volume I. The Axial Age (Book Review) Author: E. M. Citation: Archiv orient?ln? 49 (1981) 87 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Title: The axial age: the emergence of transcendental visions and the rise of clerics Author: EISENSTADT, SHMUEL N. Heading(s): Watersheds Citation: Archives europ?ennes de sociologie 23:2 (1982) 294 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Title: The Axial Age of Human History. Author: Jaspers, Karl. Citation: Commentary; a Jewish Review 6 (1948) 430 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Title: S. N. Eisenstadt, ed., "The Origins and Diversity of Axial Age Civilizations" (Book Review) Author: POLIAKOFF, MICHAEL B. Citation: Journal of Religion 68:3 (1988:July) 446 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Title: John C. Plott, "Global History of Philosophy: The Axial Age" (Book Review) Author: Gray, Wallace Citation: Philosophy East and West 28:3 (1978:July) 375 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE Fri Apr 23 08:08:11 1999 From: erik.seldeslachts at RUG.AC.BE (Erik Seldeslachts) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 10:08:11 +0200 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048250.23782.14372401527315247007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Dear Colleagues-- > I have just come across an inscription, published in Epigraphia > Zeylanica, vol 3 (1928-33), called the "Galle Trilingual Slab" which was > discovered in Galle in 1911. It records the gift of gold, silver, cloth, > etc. for worship, and is written in Tamil, Persian, and Chinese. The > epigraphist (S. Paranavitana), along with earlier interpreters, regards > the object of worship is being different in the case of each of the three > records (a Hindu deity, a Muslim saint, and the Buddha, respectively), > but this seems to me highly unlikely. > I wonder if any of you know whether further examinations of this > inscription have been made since the time of its publication in EZ, or > whether further scholarship on the religious context of Sri Lanka in > the period of the inscription (c. 1400 AD) might illuminate its > significance. > Thank you for any suggestions or information you may have. > Best wishes --Leslie Orr > Dept. of Religion > Concordia University > Montreal, Quebec > Canada H3G 1M8 > orr at vax2.concordia.ca > The "epigraphist" S. Paranavitana is totally untrustworthy. The least you can say is that he had a lot of fantasy, but he might be better called a scientific fraud. He also "discovered" a long inscription in Sanskrit made by a Byzantine merchant, who gives a learned exposition of the Greek and Roman culture and even - very anachronistically - propounds the theory of the relatednes of the Indo-European languages. The text, published in "The Greeks and the Mauryas", Colombo, 1971, was shown to be fake by the simple fact that the merchant uses English terms and pronunciations instead of Byzantine Greek ones in his transcriptions of Greek words (e.g. GrIkabhASA "the Greek language" , YuropArAjya "Europa"). See the review by Ludo Rocher in JAOS 95, 1975, p.141. Erik Seldeslachts University of Gent Gent, Belgium From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri Apr 23 07:02:37 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 11:02:37 +0400 Subject: House construction in Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro Message-ID: <161227048256.23782.9079356224830808601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to the old book by E.Mackay (Early Indus Civilization. L., 1948), the builders of the Indus major cities (MD and Harappa) used as a rule pure solution of silt (without any additions of other gluing substances). It could hold the bricks in their places, but could not prevent them from being taken out for secondary use by local people in later times. In some specific cases (as, e.g., in the facing of sewage tubes) the solution of lime or gypsum (pure, of mixed with silt) was used. Best regards Yaroslav Vassilkov From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Fri Apr 23 15:13:36 1999 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (jonathan silk) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 11:13:36 -0400 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka In-Reply-To: <37202A6B.B30@rug.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227048267.23782.13405577080970812299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The "epigraphist" S. Paranavitana is totally untrustworthy. This is simply not true, and to call him a "scientific fraud" is in fact outrageous. That later in his career he more or less lost his mind is plain, as Rocher so *tactfully* showed. The crucial question is just when this decay began. But there can be no question that his earlier -- and the definition of this word them becomes crucial-- earlier work is entirely reliable, and in many cases definitive. Jonathan SILK jonathan.silk at yale.edu From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri Apr 23 07:16:31 1999 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav V. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 11:16:31 +0400 Subject: Axial Age Message-ID: <161227048258.23782.2477094389811555848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some papers on the concept of Axial Age (in relation to India and the world in general) have been published several years ago in the first (?) issue of the materials of a symposium or conference on the Date of The Buddha. Unfortunately, I am not able to give the exact reference now. All the best, Yaroslav Vassilkov From DunkerM at PHYSIOLOGY.UIOWA.EDU Fri Apr 23 17:14:33 1999 From: DunkerM at PHYSIOLOGY.UIOWA.EDU (Mike Dunker) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 12:14:33 -0500 Subject: Technology's Impact on So. Asian linguistics Message-ID: <161227048275.23782.3197023847416755289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology List Members: I am doing graduate work in Sanskrit at the University of Iowa. I'm also involved in a research project investigating the impact of technology on South Asian linguistics. Any experience you could share on the impact of electronic media, computers, networks, the Internet or any other digital technology on your work or the discipline in general, would be very appreciated. Examples of appropriate areas would be: lexicography, OCR, the use of electronic texts in research, hypertext in research or teaching, collaborative writing over networks, and the use of multimedia in pedagogy; but information on other related areas would be welcomed, as would any references you have to others who have accomplished things in the field. I can be contacted at either of the following: mdunker at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu dunkerm at physiology.uiowa.edu Thank you very much. Michael Dunker From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Fri Apr 23 10:44:47 1999 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 12:44:47 +0200 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048282.23782.408411686473966405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The "epigraphist" S. Paranavitana is totally untrustworthy. The least you can say is that he had a > lot of fantasy, but he might be better called a scientific fraud. > The early work of Paranavitana is good, e.g. his Sigiri graffiti, andhis corpus of old inscriptions. The two books on the "Greeks and the Mauryas" and on the history of "Sigiri" on the basis of his "interlinear" texts is a rare case of forgery, maybe because of some cerebral illness. For his early and mature work he should get the credit he deserves! Harry Falk From dcarpent at VOICENET.COM Fri Apr 23 17:17:24 1999 From: dcarpent at VOICENET.COM (David Carpenter) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 13:17:24 -0400 Subject: On-line Yogasuutra bhaashya? Message-ID: <161227048273.23782.3526161638482637283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Does anyone know if anyone has input the Sanskrit text of the Vyaasa commentary on Patanjali's Yogasuutras? I know that the suutras themselves are available on-line, but I've never seen the commentary. Is it out there somewhere? Thanks for any pointers. David Carpenter dcarpent at sju.edu From guy.werlings at WANADOO.FR Fri Apr 23 12:57:48 1999 From: guy.werlings at WANADOO.FR (Guy Werlings) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 14:57:48 +0200 Subject: Early translations of the gItA Message-ID: <161227048271.23782.15252856282119280693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Have some questions for you , as to the early translations into English of the bhagavad gItA : 1. When and where was published the translation of Sir Edwin Arnold ? The text, I found on the net. 2. As far as I know, the very first translation was the one of Charles Wilkins, which was published in London in1785. Could anyone of you let me know how Wilkins translated the 4 verses : 2.16 - 4.18 - 13.2 and 18.66. 3. Does anyone of you knows the translation by Mr J. Cockburn Thompson, and could give me the date and place of publication, as well as the translation for the 4 above verses. Very best regards Guy Werlings From d53 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Fri Apr 23 13:08:52 1999 From: d53 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Thomas Lehmann) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 15:08:52 +0200 Subject: book needed Message-ID: <161227048265.23782.10011325452765825552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I am looking for the following editions and would be very grateful if somebody informs me where I could get a copy of them. title of the text: RAjapraSniya / RAyapaseNaijja One edition is from Calcutta 1880, the other is with Abhayadeva's TIkA and a translation into Gujarati from Ahmedabad, 1937, ed. by Bechardas Doshi. Many thanks in advance, W. Boll?e From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sat Apr 24 02:05:53 1999 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 19:05:53 -0700 Subject: Tantric verse Message-ID: <161227048276.23782.258817858681209297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, In his "Tantra of the Great Liberation" (p.l. [roman numeral 50] n.1) Avalon/Woodroffe quotes the following verse and attributes it to the KulArNava Tantra, without giving the reference. I have not been able to find the verse in the text, which leads me to believe he was quoting from memory and maybe got the source confused. Does anyone know if it actually is from the KulArNava (with the ref.) or, if not, from where it might come? The verese (in his transliteration) is: krite shrutyukta AchAras tretAyAm smRti-sambhavah dvApare tu purAnoktang kalau Agama kevalam Any help will be appreciated (and will bestow puNya aplenty). LGR Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann, Ph.D. Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California, Berkeley From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Sat Apr 24 05:06:45 1999 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 06:06:45 +0100 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048280.23782.17858719298759911990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Seldeslachts writes: >The "epigraphist" S. Paranavitana is totally untrustworthy. The least you >can say is that he had a >lot of fantasy, but he might be better called a scientific fraud. This is quite wrong. Much of his work is perfectly all right. It would be a pity if an aberration in old age led people to ignore or undervalue much important earlier work. >He also "discovered" a long inscription in Sanskrit made by a Byzantine >merchant, who gives a >learned exposition of the Greek and Roman culture and even - very >anachronistically - propounds >the theory of the relatednes of the Indo-European languages. >The text, published in "The Greeks and the Mauryas", Colombo, 1971, was >shown to be fake by the >simple fact that the merchant uses English terms and pronunciations >instead of Byzantine Greek >ones in his transcriptions of Greek words (e.g. GrIkabhASA "the Greek >language" , YuropArAjya >"Europa"). See the review by Ludo Rocher in JAOS 95, 1975, p.141. This work was controversial in Ceylon from publication. The most charitable interpretation possible would indeed be that there is a lot of fantasy here. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Sat Apr 24 08:11:29 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 10:11:29 +0200 Subject: A text dealing with Ayurveda Message-ID: <161227048284.23782.15971349268496189714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >In the sAMkhya school, the >transformations of material nature are for the >sake of purusha (purushArtha), but never due to >the desire of the purusha (purushecchA). The >purusha is devoid of any agency, so that any >desire or will would be ascribed by sAMkhya to >a transformation of the internal organ. Though this is the standard view, I think it is true only for the later sAMkhya; it cannot be shown in the classical texts (the sAMkhya-kArikA and its earlier commentaries). In the kArikA itself the puruSa is inactive (akartR) in the crude material sense only - it is not yet kUTastha. It is conscious (cetana), it experiences (bhoktR or draSTR), it exercises control (adhiSThAna) over the body and it has two purposes (artha): experiencing the world (darzana) and, later, isolation from it (kaivalya). It is clearly a changing entity, the source of individually and temporally different actions, for in SK 18 this fact is used as proof of the existence of many puruSas: a-yugapat pravRttez ca / puruSa-bahutvaM siddhaM. A conscious motive source of our actions: I think it is fine to call it 'will' (the connotations of 'desire' could seem improper here). >It is not right to ascribe a "sAMkhyan" origin to >every passage that uses terms like tanmAtra, >purusha, prakRti etc. I feel that for early texts it *is* right, and later it is the first guess. Though several sAMkhya _concepts_ proved to be very successful and were imported by practically everybody (guNa-theory), still the concentrated use of typical _terminology_ is suggestive of that tradition (to which the epic and puraNic tradition is, of course, closely linked). So puruSa (not Atman), prakRti (not mAyA or avidyA) can be indicatory marks. -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa assistant professor of metaphysics E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu From hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK Sat Apr 24 11:36:15 1999 From: hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK (David Lawrence) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 11:36:15 +0000 Subject: Axial Age In-Reply-To: <690E166657A5D2119C3600A0C9EA0661130AAF@exchange.chadwyck.co.uk> Message-ID: <161227048278.23782.8553840045170656381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you all for your replies. The information will be very helpful. David Lawrence From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Apr 24 16:53:24 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 12:53:24 -0400 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048288.23782.10869788197088151512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 99-04-24 06:08:51 EDT, falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE writes: > The early work of Paranavitana is good, e.g. his Sigiri graffiti, andhis > corpus of old inscriptions. The present discussion reminded me of what the well-known epigraphist Iravatham Mahadevan states in Journal of the Institute of Asian Studies, vol. 12, no.1, p. 140. "In one of the early Brahmi rock inscriptions in Abhayagiri area near Anuradhapura, a Tamil zamaNa is mentioned as hailing from a place which has been read as Ilubarata by Paranavitana. He has listed the place-name in the glossary with the comment 'of uncertain origin'. I have examined closely the inscription in situ. The name of the place is in fact written clearly as i.labarata. (Paranavitana consistently misread .la as lu as he refused to recognise the existence of .la in the early Sinhala-Brahmi Script.) Taking into account the facts that in Old Sinhalese i would be shortened as i and l_a would be written as .la or .da, it is very likely that we have here a unique occurrence of the geographical name ii.la (Ta. iil_am) in an Old Sinhalese inscription of about the second century B.C." Could Paranavitana have been suffering from the illness or decay in the period when he was working on this inscription? Regards S. Palaniappan From rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU Sat Apr 24 18:40:01 1999 From: rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU (Ramanitharan Kandiah) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 13:40:01 -0500 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048290.23782.7245080300187927324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:50 PM 04/24/1999 +0000, you wrote: >Date sent: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:44:47 +0200 >Subject: Re: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > >> The "epigraphist" S. Paranavitana is totally untrustworthy. The least you can say is that >> he had a lot of fantasy, but he might be better called a scientific fraud. >> >> > >Adding to the several objections to the above statement, I would like >to point out, that to call S. Paranavitana a scientific fraud is not >only an insult to him and to Sri Lankan archaeology, but also to >Paranavitana's supervisor at Leiden University, the eminent >Sanskritist, epigraphist and art historian Prof. J. Ph. Vogel. > >Ellen Raven >Kern Institute of Indology, Leiden > > Sorry for my 0000002 cent worthy point. Paranavitana might have been a *trained archaeologist.* However only training does NOT make a geniue professional, I believe. Sri Lankan archaeology is a shame in most of the time. And, for my layman reading, I blame Dr. Paranavitana for some extent. As another poster mentioned earlier, Paranavitana might have done good works in the beginning, but in later times rather than celebral disease, he was motivated with Sinhala myth induced chuvanism.... I understand. 'Cultural triangles' and diggings in traditional tamil lands by 100% Sinhala professionals consisting archaeological dept of Sri Lanka is, and SHOULD BE, an insult (if not a crime) to Sri Lankan archaeology. And, I understand, like *old* Paranavitana, Sri Lankan Archaelogical Dept also wants to see what WANT in their diggings in the traditional tamil lands, rather than what actually there are. Archaeological Dept of University of Jaffna was refused to do their diggings in the traditional (buddhist) tamil villages, kan-tharOdai and vallipuram. I assume the restrictions are same even at this moment. May ex-professors of University of Jaffna tell more than what I said. In early 80's, ThriyAi, a traditional tamil land, was projected (and "proved") as a buddhist sinhala place in ancient time. And, very recently (not even two months back), Trincomalee (known as thirukOneswaram) was claimed as a earliest buddhist place (with its kOkarNa vihara) that was captured by the Hindu tamils. This particular news was in a Sri lankan newspaper. What a wonderful and geniue archaeological work done by Sri Lankan state sponsered professionals! It does not matter how genious he was, Paranavitana is not a genuine professonal, at least when he was old. He was motivated with his ethnic feelings rather than a professional interest, at least for a layman like me. And, I do not find the logic behind how saying Paranavitana a fraud becomes an offence to his supervisor. {I wonder if calling Hilter a racist makes his mother a jew-biter :-(} Ramanitharan, K. Tulane University, New Orleans LA. 99'04/24 Sat. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Apr 24 20:16:06 1999 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 16:16:06 -0400 Subject: Summer Skt at Harvard (update) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048292.23782.8940283842846582931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those interested in 1st year Sasnkrit, I attach an update of my earlier announcement, with correct dates & fees. This course has been taught since 1988. M. Witzel ======================================================================= SUMMER SANSKRIT at HARVARD. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > SANS S-101 Elementary Sanskrit > > > (8 units) Monday-Thursday 3:30 - 6 p.m. > > > June 28 - August 2, 1999; exam period Aug. 16-20 > > > This course, equivalent to two semesters of course work, will > > > enable students to acquire the basic reading skills in Sanskrit. Stress > > > will be placed on learning the Devanagari script, basic grammar and > > > essential vocabulary. Emphasis will also be given to correct > > > translation of passages from simple narrative literature to the epics. > > > Fees: Application fee (nonrefundable $35) > > > Tuition (credit or non-credit): 8 unit course: $ 3,300 > > > Health insurance $95 (required if not covered by an American > > > carrier) > > > On-campus housing (if desired): room and board, eight week session: > > > $ 2,775 > > > (Housing deposit $ 610) > > > Registration by mail, fax (credit card only, with full tuition and fees) > > > through June 9 > > > Late registration June 10 - June 27 ($50 late fee). > > > June 28 - July 2 ($100 late fee) > > > Catalogues/Information > > > from Harvard Summer School, 51 Brattle Street, Cambridge MA 02138,USA > > > phone 617- 495 4024 > > > On-line catalogue: > > > ================= http://summer.dce.harvard.edu > > > http://www.harvard.edu > > > Telnet: vine.harvard.edu (at the login type: courses and RETURN) > > > For assistance call 617 496 2001 (Monday-Friday 9am-5pm) general information 617 495 4024 ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Wales Professor of Sanskrit, Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 2 Divinity Avenue (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From ellraven at WXS.NL Sat Apr 24 16:50:30 1999 From: ellraven at WXS.NL (Ellen M. Raven) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 16:50:30 +0000 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048286.23782.15737142214146822595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date sent: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:44:47 +0200 Subject: Re: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > The "epigraphist" S. Paranavitana is totally untrustworthy. The least you can say is that > he had a lot of fantasy, but he might be better called a scientific fraud. > > Adding to the several objections to the above statement, I would like to point out, that to call S. Paranavitana a scientific fraud is not only an insult to him and to Sri Lankan archaeology, but also to Paranavitana's supervisor at Leiden University, the eminent Sanskritist, epigraphist and art historian Prof. J. Ph. Vogel. Ellen Raven Kern Institute of Indology, Leiden From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Apr 24 22:03:32 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 18:03:32 -0400 Subject: THIRUMOOLAR AT CHIDAMBARAM Message-ID: <161227048295.23782.2393608569029774055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 4/11/99 9:54:35 AM Central Daylight Time, asugu at MD3.VSNL.NET.IN writes: > Could any one suggest any authenticated information > regarding the association of THIRUMOOLAR(auther of Thirumandiram) > with chidambaram temple > Some people having faith that his samathi(burried place)at > MOOLANATHER SHIRINE at chidambaram NATARAJAR TEMPLE. > SOME SAYS ABOUT THIRUVADUTHURAI(where he entered the > body of moolan) I do not know what you mean by authenticated information. But according to periyapurANam tirumUlar visits tillai before he reaches AvaTutuRai. periyapurANam also says that he lived for 3000 years and went to kailaza and reached ziva's feet. nal pati agku amar yOka mun2ivarkaLai nayantu pOyk kal puricait tiruvatikai kalantu iRaijncik kaRai kaNTar aRputak kUttu ATukin2Ra ampalam cUz tiruvItip pon2 patiyAm perum paRRa puliyUr vantu aNaintAr (per. 3569) mun2n2iya ap poruL mAlait tamiz mUvAyiram cAtti man2n2iya mUvAyirattu ANTu ippuvimEl makizntu iruntu cen2n2i mati aNintAr tam tiru aruLAl tiruk kayilai tan2n2il aNaintu oru kAlum piriyAmait tAL aTaintAr (per. 3590) There is no textual evidence that he died at Tillai. Since cuntarar mentions tirumUlar, tirumUlar cannot be later than 8th century. But his mention of pon2man2Ru in the following poem may be attributed to the possibility that this section may not have been part of the original tirumantiram. There is no critical edition of tirumantiram. mANikkattu uLLE marakatac cOtiyAy mANikkattu uLLE marakata mATamAy ANip pon2 man2Rin2il ATum tiruk kUTattaip pENit tozutu en2n2a pERu peRRArE. Regards S. Palaniappan From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Sat Apr 24 23:31:40 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 18:31:40 -0500 Subject: Parvati Message-ID: <161227048297.23782.13587673968790706036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By interesting coincidence, Mapin has also just published (in assoc. w/ the Smithsonian), _Devi: the Great Goddess: Female Divinity in South Asian Art_ by Vidya Dehejia. Any relation? >I am pleased to announce that my book Parvati, Goddess of Love (Mapin, 1999) >has been released. It is a visual though not a coffe table book. > >This is a sequel to my Parvatidarpana (Motilal Banarasidass, 1997) which was >an exposition of Kashmir Shaivism throuogh the marriage of Shiva and Parvati. > >I would welcome any comments. >Harsha V. Dehejia > From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sun Apr 25 03:08:26 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 20:08:26 -0700 Subject: House construction in Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro Message-ID: <161227048299.23782.7269773150965766172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are the IVC bricks sun-dried or kiln-baked? Thanks for your answer. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sun Apr 25 03:23:57 1999 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 20:23:57 -0700 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048301.23782.15459546786077449830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Has the spade work of monks, sangha, historians, archaeologists (eg., Paranavitaana) helped later in the "construct" of Sinhala ethnonationalism in post-independence times? Did leading monks and/or politicians make exclusive claims to Aryanhood which automatically bestows special rights? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU Sun Apr 25 03:21:10 1999 From: rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU (Ramanitharan Kandiah) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 22:21:10 -0500 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048304.23782.1796920105314256627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:23 PM 04/24/1999 -0700, you wrote: >Has the spade work of monks, sangha, historians, archaeologists >(eg., Paranavitaana) helped later in the "construct" of Sinhala >ethnonationalism >in post-independence times? Did leading monks and/or politicians >make exclusive claims to Aryanhood which automatically bestows special >rights? an-AgharEga Darmapala (though not in the post-independence period saw his thoughts in the others) From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 25 13:51:36 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 06:51:36 -0700 Subject: rAjalIlAsana in Cambodia? Message-ID: <161227048306.23782.8777037475212986298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are Pallava reliefs in Kanchipuram VaikuNTapperumAL temple showing royal court scenes with a King sitting in the pose of royal ease - (mahA)rAjalIlAsana. Also, Pallava Daksinamurtis, Chola Ayyanar and Avalokitezvaras. I know of r. avalokitas from Sri Lanka, Indonesia, South China. In Old Campa, there are royal court scenes with a king sitting in r. pose, Also, a beautiful 'Siva in rAjalIlAsana there. rAjalIlAsana is the posture with one leg either freely hanging from a couch or in a cross-legged fashion while the other leg is raised up forming a V-shape and this raised foot is set on the couch, Often, the hand is resting on the knee of the lifted leg. Cambodia had a King Mahendravarman almost at the same time as Pallava Mahendravarman. Their titles were citrasEna and citrakArapuli respectively. Jean Boisselier says Khmer art was highly influenzed from the art of South India. Hence, my question: In Cambodia, have any avalokitezvara and/or Shiva sitting in rAjalIlAsana ever found?? Thanks a million for guidance or sources, N. Ganesan Related: I saw a Gupta period Shiva sitting in rAjalIlAsana. Except this rare exception, almost comparable to rare Skanda sculptures from Guptan age, I do not know avalokita or siva sitting in rAjalIlAsana. Are there any r. Shiva or Avalokita from Bengal, U.P., Bihar, Kashmir, Nepal, Tibet, Central Asia? N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 25 14:06:07 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 07:06:07 -0700 Subject: rAjalIlAsana in Cambodia? Message-ID: <161227048310.23782.15446990534573585025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *rAjalIlAsana is the posture with one leg either freely hanging * from a couch or in a cross-legged fashion while the other leg * is raised up forming a "V-shape" and this raised foot is set on the *couch, Often, the hand is resting on the knee of the lifted leg. Pl. replace "V-shape" with "inverted V-shape". The error is regretted. Dr. Nagaswamy once told me that among the Chola murals at Tanjore Big Temple, discovered by S. K. Govindasamy in 1930s and ancient paintings from South India are not many, there is a Dakshinamurti in rAjalIlAsana posture. Is it published anywhere? N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 25 18:07:00 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 11:07:00 -0700 Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? Message-ID: <161227048315.23782.13157834801493545028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > PuRam 123-1: nAL kaL uNTu nAL makizh makizhin2 > "if a man's drunk from morning on" (transl. A.K. Ramanujan 1985) > "[Anyone], if he drinks toddy in the morning,// and > gets happily drunk by the time he holds court," ( > transl. G. Hart 1979) Is the translation right? nAL kaL = nATkaL = fresh toddy. naL could refer to day or night. (or, the adjoining lines may make it to morning. Is it so?) > + we also meet with "naL en2al", like in > naL en2 kaGkul (8 occ.) "in the dead of night" (A.K.Ramanujan >1967:92) > naL en2 yAmattu (11 occ.) "in the night" (ibid. p.77) "naLLiTaic cAkilan2; pakaliTaic cAkilan2"; Here, Kamban uses unambiguously 'naL' as 'night'. V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Sun Apr 25 19:19:24 1999 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 12:19:24 -0700 Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? Message-ID: <161227048317.23782.6644900246635313250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD wrote: > A3. it is used inside tolkaappiyam to refer to some "special > days/dates" > like the nakSatra paraNi (=bharaNI, T.Lex) according to iLampUraNar > but this does not mean it was its main use > For the other cUttiram, maka [magha] naks2atra was cited as an example. Note here that nAL here more specifically means daily lunar asterism. nAL mIn2 [astral body] vs. kOL mIn2 [planetary body]. > A4. There is at least one place where it can refer (with a specifier) > to night time (according to UVS): it is Kuruntokai 332-1 > vanta vATaic cil peyaR kaTai nAL > "late at night, when cold winds blow, and drizzling rain falls" > (transl. Ludden & Shanmugam Pillai, 1976) > [= ... nALin2 kaTaiyAmattil (U.V.S.)] > In addition to the places I have quotes already, the following very unambiguously indicates the usage of nAL in the sense of night: kuRuntokai: 145.3-5 "... pAn2AL tuJcAtu uRainaroTu ucAvAt tuyil kaN mAkkaLoTu neTTirA uTaittE". "[this town] ...has long nights that are full of beings with sleepy eyes that do not care to enquire [about the welfare of] those who are sleepless at midnight" [rA.Raghava Iyengar] pAn2AL = pAl nAL = divided night = mid night neTTirA = neTTu irA = long night Chandra _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT Sun Apr 25 14:03:15 1999 From: p.magnone at AGORA.STM.IT (Paolo Magnone) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 15:03:15 +0100 Subject: A text dealing with Ayurveda Message-ID: <161227048308.23782.13957981763445507066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 24 Apr 99, at 10:11 Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: > Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > >In the sAMkhya school, the > >transformations of material nature are for the > >sake of purusha (purushArtha), but never due to > >the desire of the purusha (purushecchA). The > >purusha is devoid of any agency, so that any > >desire or will would be ascribed by sAMkhya to > >a transformation of the internal organ. > > > Though this is the standard view, I think it is true only for the later > sAMkhya; it cannot be shown in the classical texts (the sAMkhya-kArikA and > its earlier commentaries). In the kArikA itself the puruSa is inactive > (akartR) in the crude material sense only - it is not yet kUTastha. It is > conscious (cetana), it experiences (bhoktR or draSTR), it exercises control > (adhiSThAna) over the body and it has two purposes (artha): experiencing the > world (darzana) and, later, isolation from it (kaivalya). It is clearly a > changing entity, the source of individually and temporally different > actions, for in SK 18 this fact is used as proof of the existence of many > puruSas: > a-yugapat pravRttez ca / puruSa-bahutvaM siddhaM. > A conscious motive source of our actions: I think it is fine to call it > 'will' (the connotations of 'desire' could seem improper here). I think "will" is explicitly denied of the puruza itself already in the kArikA, when the puruza is styled *madhyastha* (19) and above all *udAsIna* (20). What is agency otherwise than "in the crude material sense"? If you mean that the puruza, though not actually involved in performing the action, nevertheless "wills" it, this is explicitly ruled out by so early a commentary as GauDapAda's, which introduces k. 20 raising the objection: il the puruza is not agent, then how can he resolve to opt for the good and renounce the bad? The reply is that the puruza's awareness accrues to nature by contiguity, and thus "guNA adhyavasAyam kurvanti na puruzaH". I do not think it is fine to call "a conscious motive source of our actions" will: will is rather our response to a "motive", which is different from a "cause" exactly in that it acts through consciousness and not merely through mechanism. Now, the puruza merely supplies the "awareness" element by his sinergy with nature; but it is nature herself who supplies the "deliberation" or adhyavasAya element, and so it is nature who is agent even in this "refined" sense. In fact, the puruza is content with merely consciously witnessing the both practical and purposeful activity of the evolutes, just as a mendicant ascetic witnesses the purposeful and practical activity of the peasants tilling the soil among whom he happens to walk without any involvement whatsoever (the simile is GauDapAda's). It is not right to take the non-simultaneous actions in k. 18 as implying activity on the part of the puruzas. If you do, by the same reason you could likewise argue that birth, death etc. that are mentioned earlier in the same k. are also predicable of the different puruzas, which is evidently not the case. As birth and death, non- simultaneous actions also are predicable of the different individual aggregates, enabling to infer different puruzas, who do not have to be born, die, or act themselves for the argument to hold. ---------------------------- Paolo Magnone Catholic University of Milan pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it http://www.agora.stm.it/P.Magnone/jambu.htm From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 25 22:18:32 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 15:18:32 -0700 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048319.23782.3994892022856984533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.Madhuresan asks: >Has the spade work of monks, sangha, historians, archaeologists >(eg., Paranavitaana) helped later in the "construct" of Sinhala >ethnonationalism >in post-independence times? Did leading monks and/or politicians >make exclusive claims to Aryanhood which automatically bestows special rights? In addition to anAgarika dharmapAla who has alreadty been named, I believe, wouldn't S.W.R.D Banadaranayaka also fit the bill? Afterall the concept of sinhala supremacy into politics, AFAIK, was his doing. I also remember being told that the american George[sic?] Olcott also had some such scheme though the majority of the biographical reference talk about his being a reformer more than a closeted racist. Regards, Krishna _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 25 22:21:49 1999 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 15:21:49 -0700 Subject: Query about past tense in Samskrt Message-ID: <161227048320.23782.11346603662526058783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In samskrt, the ending "sma" is sometimes used to convert the present tense into past tense i.e. "pArvati patirUpeNa zivaM prAptumicchati sma." As is well know, "sma" cannot be used with the prathama and the dvitIya puruSa. Is there any reason given for this? What is the special relationship between "sma" and the third person ? All pointers will be appreciated Regards, Krishna _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 25 22:23:56 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 15:23:56 -0700 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048322.23782.1530518364462280381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: >Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >>In the sAMkhya school, the >>transformations of material nature are for the >>sake of purusha (purushArtha), but never due to >>the desire of the purusha (purushecchA). The >>purusha is devoid of any agency, so that any >>desire or will would be ascribed by sAMkhya to >>a transformation of the internal organ. > > >Though this is the standard view, I think it is true only for the later >sAMkhya; it cannot be shown in the classical texts (the sAMkhya-kArikA and >its earlier commentaries). This, I think, will require a major reinterpretation of the kArikAs and the earlier commentaries. As already noted in another response, that would not be a very valid enterprise. I am not denying that something like 'will' may be attributed to the purusha, even in sAMkhyan terms. However, to hold such a 'will' or 'desire' to be responsible for the evolution of the tanmAtras is plainly non-sAMkhyan. The minute one does that, one moves from sAMkhya to vedAnta. Even under heavy vedAnta influence in post-Vacaspati times, it would be difficult to find a sAMkhya author who attributes causal agency to the purusha's will. .... >>It is not right to ascribe a "sAMkhyan" origin to >>every passage that uses terms like tanmAtra, >>purusha, prakRti etc. > >I feel that for early texts it *is* right, and later it is the first guess. >Though several sAMkhya _concepts_ proved to be very successful and were >imported by practically everybody (guNa-theory), still the concentrated use >of typical _terminology_ is suggestive of that tradition This is precisely where I take exception. For example, take the terms avyakta, mahat and ahaMkAra, in their specific senses as serial evolutes of prakRti. Very sAMkhyan sounding terms, aren't they? Which is why their occurence in the pancIkaraNa raises a doubt about its attribution to Sankara, the advaita vedAntin. Both Karl Potter and Sengaku Mayeda have doubted the authenticity of this attribution to Sankara. However, take a look at Sankara's commentary on the bhagavad-gItA, an acknowledged authentic text. In verse 7.4, the BhG only lists the five (subtle) elements along with manas, buddhi and ahaMkAra, as constituting the eight-fold lower prakRti. It would have been quite easy for a vedAntin to describe the last three as aspects of the internal organ and be done with it. However, Samkara seemingly goes out of his way, and identifies them instead with avyakta, mahat and ahaMkAra. In other words, although BhG itself, along with its parent text, the Mahabharata, has many affiliations to the Samkhyan school, Samkara's commentary sounds more "sAMkhyan" than the verse he is commenting upon. This has not attracted much critical attention, probably because Samkara's commentaries are often taken to be authentic, by default. In any case, there are various other indications for the authenticity of this commentary. However, an identical usage of avyakta, mahat and ahaMkAra in an independent text like the pancIkaraNa raises an issue of "sAMkhyan" origin or influence, and leads to the conclusion (a hasty one, in my opinion) that this text has to be non-Sankaran. Meanwhile, the fact that an authentic Sankaran text uses the same terms, and in the same sense, is totally overlooked. I think the assumptions that go behind this are extremely problematic, from a textual analysis point of view. The primay assumption, of course, is that the presence of terms like purusha, prakRti, tanmatra, avyakta etc. is immediately suggestive of the sAMkhya school, and this is the scholarly dogma that I am willing to question. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 00:14:49 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 17:14:49 -0700 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048324.23782.6380063273453513937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri Sundaresan, Appropos your excellent post, I just want to make a small comment--you have doubted the authenticity of 'Pancikarana' of Adi Samkaracarya. In my opinion, the doubts are unfounded since this text even has a Varttika attributed to Suresvaracarya on it. (In addition to traditional commentaries by Anandajnana et al). This validates the authenticity of the text. Secondly, I direct you to Sri Samkaracarya's commentary on the 18th Chapter of BG (do not recall the exact verse), where he uses Samkhyan concepts to explain a particular verse. The Purvapaksin then raises an objection- "How come you now accept Kapila samkhya considering that you have censured it earlier?" The Acharya responds- "What we have censured earlier is the duality preached by Kapila Samkhya. Else, they are indeed an authority on the science of Gunas." Regards, Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:23:56 PDT Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: >Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >>In the sAMkhya school, the >>transformations of material nature are for the >>sake of purusha (purushArtha), but never due to >>the desire of the purusha (purushecchA). The >>purusha is devoid of any agency, so that any >>desire or will would be ascribed by sAMkhya to >>a transformation of the internal organ. > > >Though this is the standard view, I think it is true only for the later >sAMkhya; it cannot be shown in the classical texts (the sAMkhya-kArikA and >its earlier commentaries). This, I think, will require a major reinterpretation of the kArikAs and the earlier commentaries. As already noted in another response, that would not be a very valid enterprise. I am not denying that something like 'will' may be attributed to the purusha, even in sAMkhyan terms. However, to hold such a 'will' or 'desire' to be responsible for the evolution of the tanmAtras is plainly non-sAMkhyan. The minute one does that, one moves from sAMkhya to vedAnta. Even under heavy vedAnta influence in post-Vacaspati times, it would be difficult to find a sAMkhya author who attributes causal agency to the purusha's will. .... >>It is not right to ascribe a "sAMkhyan" origin to >>every passage that uses terms like tanmAtra, >>purusha, prakRti etc. > >I feel that for early texts it *is* right, and later it is the first guess. >Though several sAMkhya _concepts_ proved to be very successful and were >imported by practically everybody (guNa-theory), still the concentrated use >of typical _terminology_ is suggestive of that tradition This is precisely where I take exception. For example, take the terms avyakta, mahat and ahaMkAra, in their specific senses as serial evolutes of prakRti. Very sAMkhyan sounding terms, aren't they? Which is why their occurence in the pancIkaraNa raises a doubt about its attribution to Sankara, the advaita vedAntin. Both Karl Potter and Sengaku Mayeda have doubted the authenticity of this attribution to Sankara. However, take a look at Sankara's commentary on the bhagavad-gItA, an acknowledged authentic text. In verse 7.4, the BhG only lists the five (subtle) elements along with manas, buddhi and ahaMkAra, as constituting the eight-fold lower prakRti. It would have been quite easy for a vedAntin to describe the last three as aspects of the internal organ and be done with it. However, Samkara seemingly goes out of his way, and identifies them instead with avyakta, mahat and ahaMkAra. In other words, although BhG itself, along with its parent text, the Mahabharata, has many affiliations to the Samkhyan school, Samkara's commentary sounds more "sAMkhyan" than the verse he is commenting upon. This has not attracted much critical attention, probably because Samkara's commentaries are often taken to be authentic, by default. In any case, there are various other indications for the authenticity of this commentary. However, an identical usage of avyakta, mahat and ahaMkAra in an independent text like the pancIkaraNa raises an issue of "sAMkhyan" origin or influence, and leads to the conclusion (a hasty one, in my opinion) that this text has to be non-Sankaran. Meanwhile, the fact that an authentic Sankaran text uses the same terms, and in the same sense, is totally overlooked. I think the assumptions that go behind this are extremely problematic, from a textual analysis point of view. The primay assumption, of course, is that the presence of terms like purusha, prakRti, tanmatra, avyakta etc. is immediately suggestive of the sAMkhya school, and this is the scholarly dogma that I am willing to question. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Sun Apr 25 15:48:50 1999 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 17:48:50 +0200 Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048313.23782.367342501710074153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:12 17/04/99 EDT, Palaniappa at AOL.COM wrote : >DEDR 3656 has Ta. nAL day, early dawn, forenoon..etc. > What DEDR does not list is the word naTunAL, > a compound of naTu + nAL meaning midnight instead of midday. >If we also consider that DEDR 3621 has Ta. naL meaning 'night', we can see >that at first the word "nAL" (derived from the root *naL- meaning 'to be >dark') must have meant 'night'. Then, how did it come to mean 'day'? Another >meaning of "nAL" not listed by DEDR but preserved in Tamil and Malayalam is >'daily lunar asterism' more explicitly referred to as "nALmIn2", a compound >Are there other languages where the word for day is based on the word for >night? Later, Periannan Chandrasekaran added: >Actually the word "nAL" itself stands for daily lunar asterism without >the assistance of teh word "mIn2": >"nALoTu peyariya vizu marattu" (neTunalvATai 82) One has to add to that very suggestive (but probably not conclusive) discussion the following facts: A1. the word nAL is frequent inside the 33000 lines that constitute the Classical Tamil corpus: it occurs almost 400 times; in its most frequent use, it does not refer to day-time (as opposed to night-time) but refers to a unit of time that is contained inside a longer period (like a month, a life-time, etc.); that unit is somehow a 24 hours period; [see for instance: oru nAL "one day", pal nAL "many days", cil nAL "not-many days", eN nAL tiGkaL "a moon that is eight days old" (litt. "eight day moon"), num nAL "your days", etc. A2. It can sometimes refer to the morning time, some examples being Narr. 358-9: ciRu veN kAkkai nAL irai peRUum (see also Narr.21-11) PuRam 123-1: nAL kaL uNTu nAL makizh makizhin2 "if a man's drunk from morning on" (transl. A.K. Ramanujan 1985) "[Anyone], if he drinks toddy in the morning,// and gets happily drunk by the time he holds court," (transl. G. Hart 1979) A3. it is used inside tolkaappiyam to refer to some "special days/dates" like the nakSatra paraNi (=bharaNI, T.Lex) according to iLampUraNar but this does not mean it was its main use A4. There is at least one place where it can refer (with a specifier) to night time (according to UVS): it is Kuruntokai 332-1 vanta vATaic cil peyaR kaTai nAL "late at night, when cold winds blow, and drizzling rain falls" (transl. Ludden & Shanmugam Pillai, 1976) [= ... nALin2 kaTaiyAmattil (U.V.S.)] B1. On the contrary, naL is not a very frequent item inside the CT corpus and it is difficult to be sure of its exact meaning (it probable has to do with "middle"; should be connected with naTu & naTuvaN) + We meet 7 times with the expression naL iruL, like in: kuRun 107-3: naL iruL yAmattu "in the dense dark of midnight" perum 155: naL iruL viTiyal puL ezhap pOki "birds awake from sleep at dawn when darkness flees" (Chelliah 1962:115) + What about PuRam 246-15: naL irum poykai ("large pond [of lotuses]", Hart 1975:103) + we also meet with "naL en2al", like in naL en2 kaGkul (8 occ.) "in the dead of night" (A.K.Ramanujan 1967:92) naL en2 yAmattu (11 occ.) "in the night" (ibid. p.77) B2. there is one item, naLi, that occurs 50 times and could be connected with naL since it has some common shades of meaning with it like "denseness" (but this post is becoming to long so that I'll leave it for others to comment and to argue) So my conclusion is an absence of conclusion. We cannot be sure that nAL is derived from naL What Palaniappan says (night --> day) could be true (it is thought-provoking!) but the main CT data does not seem to be very conclusive for that. Greetings -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Mon Apr 26 02:38:58 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya Mishra) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 22:38:58 -0400 Subject: Julian Jaynes Society Message-ID: <161227048347.23782.10427646482579624598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Have you heard about this author? At least, I had not, till last week when some one told me about him but now I am excited about it that I want to share it with you. It seems that he had a theory about religious experiences that is supported by the latest research as shown in the following reference. Although his research was based mostly on the western religious text but in my view, they apply equally well to the Indian religious texts. If you want more references you can do a search on the internet or send me an email to send you results of my recent search. I am sure that most of you will enjoy reading and discussing what he has to say and apply it to your interests or research areas. Articles related to Jaynes' bicameral mind and related theories: Religion: Is It All In Your Head? Talan, Jamie Psychology Today, 1998, April, Vol. 31 (2): 9 Vilayanur Ramachandran, M.D., a neurologist, believes that somewhere in the brain's temporal lobes there may be neural circuitry for religious experience; he points to the fact that about 25 percent of patients with temporal lobe epilepsy are obsessed with religion. He thinks that these patients' seizures caused damage to the pathway that connects two areas of the brain: the one that recognizes sensory information and the one that gives such information emotional context. -- Have a peaceful and joyous day. ?1998 Aditya Mishra homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya ICQ Pager: 1131674 Random thought of the day: People often find it easier to be a result of the past than a cause of the future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Mon Apr 26 03:31:02 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya Mishra) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 23:31:02 -0400 Subject: Julian Jaynes again Message-ID: <161227048341.23782.6371350681465384708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since I was exposed to this author only last week, I was surprised to find that some one else also thought it relevant to the subject matter of this list as posted by lightwyo at aol.com from Wyoming , February 17, 1999 at the amazon.com site. I hope you will consider it worthwhile to respond to this review if you have read the book yourself. ==== Very interesting and challenging If one can wade through the laborious and overally academic writing style this is interesting territory. However, the concept is really not that new. The forerunners of civilization in India were well versed in levels of human consciousness and a 3,000 year old collection of writings known as the "Upanishads" arose from this. The myths and stories and references to "Gods" in ancient thoughts have always been metaphor to explain something not easily explained by language. I don't know that Jaynes fully addresses this. And furthermore, even if the bicameral mind explains a broader consciousness we've forgotten because of a change in evolution or brain chemistry, or psyhic wounding, so what? Jaynes does not elaborate on the reason the right brain once dominated (if this is true), the real message and essence of the forgotten side of the brain and its broad meaning. -- Have a peaceful and joyous day. ?1998 Aditya Mishra homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya ICQ Pager: 1131674 Random thought of the day: People often find it easier to be a result of the past than a cause of the future. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 11:57:42 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 04:57:42 -0700 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048330.23782.10813521889665143910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Veluppillai, Greetings. Did you write about Galle inscription any time? Kind regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 12:00:35 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 05:00:35 -0700 Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? Message-ID: <161227048748.23782.12988174082358140097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >B1. On the contrary, naL is not a very frequent item inside the CT >corpus and it is difficult to be sure of its exact meaning >(it probable has to do with "middle"; should be connected with naTu >& naTuvaN) > + We meet 7 times with the expression naL iruL, like in: > kuRun 107-3: naL iruL yAmattu "in the dense dark of midnight" > perum 155: naL iruL viTiyal puL ezhap pOki > "birds awake from sleep at dawn when darkness flees" (Chelliah > 1962:115) Does the `naL' in naL iruL yAmattu & naL iruL viTiyal mean a) 'middle' OR b) 'black' ?? > + What about PuRam 246-15: naL irum poykai > ("large pond [of lotuses]", Hart 1975:103) I am reminded of the discussion on dharmasastras' prohibition against sea travel (travel across the 'black sea'). There are sangam poem phrases describing sea as 'black'. In that light, naL irum poykai = black, big lake. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 12:05:21 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 05:05:21 -0700 Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? Message-ID: <161227048332.23782.4152302535184508607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >B1. On the contrary, naL is not a very frequent item inside the CT >corpus and it is difficult to be sure of its exact meaning >(it probable has to do with "middle"; should be connected with naTu >& naTuvaN) > + We meet 7 times with the expression naL iruL, like in: > kuRun 107-3: naL iruL yAmattu "in the dense dark of midnight" > perum 155: naL iruL viTiyal puL ezhap pOki > "birds awake from sleep at dawn when darkness flees" (Chelliah > 1962:115) Does the `naL' in naL iruL yAmattu & naL iruL viTiyal mean a) 'middle' OR b) 'black' ?? > + What about PuRam 246-15: naL irum poykai > ("large pond [of lotuses]", Hart 1975:103) I am reminded of the discussion on dharmasastras' prohibition against sea travel (travel across the 'black sea'). There are sangam poem phrases describing sea as 'black'. In that light, naL irum poykai = black, big lake. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 12:06:27 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 05:06:27 -0700 Subject: Day is night in Dravidian? Message-ID: <161227048334.23782.15573473794992616897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >B1. On the contrary, naL is not a very frequent item inside the CT >corpus and it is difficult to be sure of its exact meaning >(it probable has to do with "middle"; should be connected with naTu >& naTuvaN) > + We meet 7 times with the expression naL iruL, like in: > kuRun 107-3: naL iruL yAmattu "in the dense dark of midnight" > perum 155: naL iruL viTiyal puL ezhap pOki > "birds awake from sleep at dawn when darkness flees" (Chelliah > 1962:115) Does the `naL' in naL iruL yAmattu & naL iruL viTiyal mean a) 'middle' OR b) 'black' ?? > + What about PuRam 246-15: naL irum poykai > ("large pond [of lotuses]", Hart 1975:103) I am reminded of the discussion on dharmasastras' prohibition against sea travel (travel across the 'black sea'). There are sangam poem phrases describing sea as 'black'. In that light, naL irum poykai = black, big lake. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 13:34:50 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 06:34:50 -0700 Subject: Paranavitana's dissertation? Message-ID: <161227048337.23782.3639647423058287133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Paranavitana's supervisor at Leiden University, the eminent >Sanskritist, epigraphist and art historian Prof. J. Ph. Vogel. As a confessed admirer of Prof. Vogel, I would imagine that S. Paranavitana's PhD work will be devoid of the recorded "cerebral disease". My search for his PhD research or its subsequent publication turned out to be unfruitful. Also, I do not have access to Leiden Univ.'s old catalogs. If there is a thesis/dissertation of Paranavitana under Prof. Vogel, please let me know the citation as I want to read it. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From alvapillai.veluppillai at TEOL.UU.SE Mon Apr 26 09:01:00 1999 From: alvapillai.veluppillai at TEOL.UU.SE (Alvappillai Veluppillai) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 10:01:00 +0100 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka In-Reply-To: <199904241840.NAA07200@majestic.tcs.tulane.edu> Message-ID: <161227048328.23782.10891173327944678600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I could say something about Paranavitana's scholarship. 1. I am aware that he has an honorary doctorate from Leiden, may be because Vogel was his admirer for some reason. Vogel could not have been his supervisor as Paranavitana did not work for his Ph.D. Without an undergraduate degree, good universities do not register candidates for Ph.D. Honorary doctorate can be conferred even without a basic degree. 2. There is now almost unanimous agreement among serious scholars that some of his writings during the last phase of his career are not worthy of serious consideration. I can cite one recent publication which deals with this aspect. Ananda W .P. Guruge, " Senerat Paranavitana as a Writer of Historical Fiction in Sanskrit", Vidyodaya. J. Soc. Sc. vol. 7, 1&2, 1996, pp. 157- 179. 3. Even during the early phase of his career, he was a Sinhala chauvinist. One can read one of his contributions and rejoinders to it to understand the depth to which he can go to twist and misinterpret matters. S. Paranavitana, "Vallipuram Gold Plate of the Reign of Vasabha", Epigraphia Zeylanica, vol iv, Colombo, 1940, pp. 229- 237; "Vallipuram Gold Sheet Inscription", Inscriptions of Ceylon, vol. ii, part i, Late Brahmi Inscriptions. Rejoinders: A. Veluppillai, "Tamils in Ancient Jaffna and Vallipuram Gold Plate", Journal of Tamil Studies, vol. 19, Madras, 1981, pp. 1- 14; "Religions in YAzhppANam upto the Thirteenth Century AD", Lanka 5, ed. Peter Schalk, Uppsala, Sweden, 1990, pp. 10-42. /A.Veluppillai >At 04:50 PM 04/24/1999 +0000, you wrote: >>Date sent: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:44:47 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka >>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >> >> >>> The "epigraphist" S. Paranavitana is totally untrustworthy. The least you >can say is that >>> he had a lot of fantasy, but he might be better called a scientific fraud. >>> >>> >> >>Adding to the several objections to the above statement, I would like >>to point out, that to call S. Paranavitana a scientific fraud is not >>only an insult to him and to Sri Lankan archaeology, but also to >>Paranavitana's supervisor at Leiden University, the eminent >>Sanskritist, epigraphist and art historian Prof. J. Ph. Vogel. >> >>Ellen Raven >>Kern Institute of Indology, Leiden >> >> > >Sorry for my 0000002 cent worthy point. > >Paranavitana might have been a *trained archaeologist.* >However only training does NOT make a geniue professional, I believe. >Sri Lankan archaeology is a shame in most of the time. >And, for my layman reading, I blame Dr. Paranavitana for some extent. >As another poster mentioned earlier, Paranavitana might have done good >works in the beginning, but in later times rather than celebral disease, he >was motivated with Sinhala myth induced chuvanism.... I understand. > >'Cultural triangles' and diggings in traditional tamil lands by 100% >Sinhala professionals consisting archaeological dept of Sri Lanka >is, and SHOULD BE, an insult (if not a crime) to Sri Lankan archaeology. >And, I understand, like *old* Paranavitana, Sri Lankan Archaelogical Dept also >wants to see what WANT in their diggings in the traditional tamil lands, >rather than what actually there are. > >Archaeological Dept of University of Jaffna was refused to do their diggings >in the traditional (buddhist) tamil villages, kan-tharOdai and vallipuram. >I assume the restrictions are same even at this moment. > >May ex-professors of University of Jaffna tell more than what I said. > >In early 80's, ThriyAi, a traditional tamil land, was projected (and "proved") >as a buddhist sinhala place in ancient time. > >And, very recently (not even two months back), Trincomalee (known as >thirukOneswaram) >was claimed as a earliest buddhist place (with its kOkarNa vihara) that was >captured by the >Hindu tamils. This particular news was in a Sri lankan newspaper. > >What a wonderful and geniue archaeological work done by Sri Lankan state >sponsered professionals! > >It does not matter how genious he was, Paranavitana is not a genuine >professonal, at least when he was old. > >He was motivated with his ethnic feelings rather than a professional >interest, at least for a layman like me. > >And, I do not find the logic behind how saying Paranavitana a fraud becomes >an offence to his supervisor. >{I wonder if calling Hilter a racist makes his mother a jew-biter :-(} > >Ramanitharan, K. >Tulane University, >New Orleans LA. >99'04/24 Sat. From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Mon Apr 26 12:36:05 1999 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Vielle Christophe) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 14:36:05 +0200 Subject: A text dealing with Ayurveda-PAncarAtra connection In-Reply-To: <19990421213207.89239.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048336.23782.10063848917559341320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In examining the broader context of the given extract of my "purANic saMhitA", I can say now that these physiological/embryological conceptions are in fact exposed to the king Janaka by the sage Asita, whose discourse concerns mainly the problematic of rebirth. Since other parts of the text offers clear examples of PAncarAtra philosophy, my question should have been: is there PAncarAtra texts dealing in some length with the physiological/embryological mechanismes of rebirth? Thank you for your help. >I'm going to indulge in what seems like a minor >nitpick, but turns out to be a point that often goes >unnoticed. > >Vielle Christophe >wrote: > >>... Here is an abstract, in >>which sAMkhya/Ayurveda conceptions are exposed (e.g. "form"-rUpa as one of >>the five "subtle elements"-tanmAtra, corresponding to the fire as one of >>the five "gross elements"; dhAtus or principles etc.). Here is an abstract >> >>babhUva rUpatanmAtraM puruSecchApracoditAt >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >It is incorrect to label this as a sAMkhyan >conception. In the sAMkhya school, the >transformations of material nature are for the >sake of purusha (purushArtha), but never due to >the desire of the purusha (purushecchA). The >purusha is devoid of any agency, so that any >desire or will would be ascribed by sAMkhya to >a transformation of the internal organ >(antaHkaraNa-vRtti). And as the antaHkaraNa is >itself composed of transformations of prakRti >(avyakta, mahat and ahaMkAra), all agency is >removed from purusha. > >It is not right to ascribe a "sAMkhyan" origin to >every passage that uses terms like tanmAtra, >purusha, prakRti etc. They are as likely to be >vedAntic terms, for example. Indeed, the use of >purushecchA in the above extract seems to >resonate more with the brahmasUtra (kAmAc ca >na anumAna-apekshA) than with any sAMkhyan >conception. Unless of course, one uses >"sAMkhya" to refer not to a school of >philosophy, but to any system of knowledge that >is said to lead to liberation. > >>It is also mentionned in the same chapter that the semen introduced into >>the womb of the woman by the man at the time of coition will get mixed with >>the blood in the womb, and that the issue will be male, female or >>hermaphrodite (napuMsaka) according to the proportion of the mixture: if >>blood exceeds semen the issue will be a girl, if semen exceeds it will be a >>boy, and if both are equal the child will be a hermaphrodite. > >This is probably to be found in Ayurvedic texts, >but I doubt if sAMkhyan texts refer to it. >vAcaspati miSra's sAMkhyatattvakaumudI >mentions that the hair and blood come from the >mother, while arteries, bones and marrow come >from the father. However, it sounds like a >generic enough description that could have >parallels or ancestors in other purANic texts. >Also check the Mahabharata. There is bound to >be something in it. SikhaNDin and bRhannala >offer sufficient context to introduce a discussion >on the causes that normally determine a child's >gender. > >Vidyasankar > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com Dr. Christophe Vielle Institut orientaliste Coll?ge Erasme Place Blaise Pascal 1 B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve (Belgium) Tel. 32+10+47 49 54 From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 22:41:37 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 15:41:37 -0700 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048727.23782.6153828577933380893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Seeing the problems and some 'illnesses', I wonder how the inscriptional material relating to Tamils was handled by S. Paranavitana & co.? For instance, in the oldest Brahmi inscriptions from Ceylon, are there any presence of Tamil or Tamils? Pali scholars were producing books in Kaveri delta. Due to the bhakti movement in Tamil lands in 6th-10th centuries, Buddhists would have left for Ceylon and over time became Sinhala speakers? Have scholars of Buddhism taken a look at the complex interactions fuelled by religious rivalries? V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From tjun at AA.TUFS.AC.JP Mon Apr 26 07:28:32 1999 From: tjun at AA.TUFS.AC.JP (Takashima Jun) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 16:28:32 +0900 Subject: Tantric verse In-Reply-To: <199904240204.TAA25273@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227048326.23782.3882901327646768618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The verese (in his transliteration) is: > > krite shrutyukta AchAras tretAyAm smRti-sambhavah > dvApare tu purAnoktang kalau Agama kevalam > > Any help will be appreciated (and will bestow puNya aplenty). Just a parallel meaning passage aagamoktavidhaanena kalau devaan yajet sudhiiH 6 zaaktaanandataraGginii 2.6 (p.15) as ``rudra yaamale'' Takashima Jun(tjun at aa.tufs.ac.jp) Institute for the Study of Languages and Cultures of Asia and Africa Tokyo University of Foreign Studies From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Mon Apr 26 15:07:12 1999 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 17:07:12 +0200 Subject: Tantric verse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048339.23782.3535158504428513919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Takashima Jun writes: > > The verse (in his transliteration) is: > > krite shrutyukta AchAras tretAyAm smRti-sambhavah > > dvApare tu purAnoktang kalau Agama kevalam > > > > Any help will be appreciated (and will bestow puNya aplenty). > Just a parallel meaning passage > > aagamoktavidhaanena kalau devaan yajet sudhiiH 6 > > zaaktaanandataraGginii 2.6 (p.15) as ``rudra yaamale'' Not an answer, strictly -- verses with a similar construction (the names of the four yugas put into saptami/locative) are not uncommon. See for example the entries in L. Sternbach's Mahasubhashita Samgraha. Vol. 6. Hoshiarpur 1987 (posthumously publ. by S. Bhaskaran Nair), Nos. 11113-11127 (verses beginning with k.rte...). Another example, randomly chosen, Bhagavatapurana 12.3.52 (k.rte yad dhyaayato vi.s.nu.m tretaayaa.m yajato makhai.h | dvaapare paricaryaayaa.m kalau tad dharikiirtanaat ||). Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Universitaet Bonn, Indologisches Seminar From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 00:33:12 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 17:33:12 -0700 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048729.23782.3916395942129848718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Surprising to learn that Paranavitana did not have an undergraduate degree! Coming to know of the problems, 'illnessses', etc., did he and his successors present the data about Tamils in early brahmi inscriptions of Ceylon truthfully and adequately? Have misrepresentations happened pre-1960? Pali authors were working in Kaveri delta. After the success of bhakti movements by Srivaishnava Alvars and Saivaite Nayanmars, Tamil Buddhists would have left for Ceylon from 6-7 the cent. and later, became Sinhalese over time. Have the complex interactions between Ceylon and South India looked into in Indological scholarship? V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ellraven at WXS.NL Mon Apr 26 23:21:33 1999 From: ellraven at WXS.NL (Ellen M. Raven) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 23:21:33 +0000 Subject: Paranavitana's dissertation? In-Reply-To: <19990426133450.37955.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048343.23782.12656924255772864163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear N. Ganesan, Apparently there are only few copies of the original thesis in Dutch libraries, but one is in the Kern Institute library (very likely Prof. Vogel's own copy). I can send some more information but not before next week, as I am abroad this week. The thesis was apparently slightly enlarged and published subsequently in Colombo as `The stupa in Ceylon' (Memoirs of the Archaeological Survey of Ceylon 5) in 1946. The ABIA bibliography of the 1940s contains references to several reviews of the work. It was reprinted in 1988 and is available in Colombo. Ellen Raven > Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 06:34:50 PDT > Reply-to: Indology > From: "N. Ganesan" > Subject: Paranavitana's dissertation? > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >Paranavitana's supervisor at Leiden University, the eminent > >Sanskritist, epigraphist and art historian Prof. J. Ph. Vogel. > > As a confessed admirer of Prof. Vogel, I would imagine that > S. Paranavitana's PhD work will be devoid of the recorded > "cerebral disease". My search for his PhD research or > its subsequent publication turned out to be unfruitful. > Also, I do not have access to Leiden Univ.'s old catalogs. > > If there is a thesis/dissertation of Paranavitana under Prof. Vogel, > please let me know the citation as I want to read it. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From ellraven at WXS.NL Mon Apr 26 23:21:33 1999 From: ellraven at WXS.NL (Ellen M. Raven) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 23:21:33 +0000 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227048345.23782.2003379345785362979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although I am away from Leiden this week and cannot check the Kern Institute Library for the details of S. Paranavitana's original thesis (which is there), I would like to point out: - Paranavitana's doctorate at Leiden University was not an honorary doctorate, but one bestowed on him after the public defense of a PhD thesis submitted for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy at Leiden University. - This thesis consisted of the first four chapters of Paranavitana's `The Stupa in Ceylon', which was published officially after the second world war (1946) in the Memoirs of the Archaeological Survey of Ceylon. - In the preface to the published edition, Paranavitana explains that he worked with A.H. Longhurst, then Archaeological Commissioner of Ceylon, on the archaeological questions raised in his work . In Leiden Prof. J.Ph Vogel supervised the final preparation of the manuscript. A `Promotie Commissie' (a Committee of Professors and other academic specialists installed for the occasion) must subsequently have approved the thesis for public defense, but only after its acceptance (as a scholarly study worthy of defense for a doctorate degree) by Prof. Vogel. Acceptance of a thesis by a supervisor is not based on `admiration' but on a motivated judgment that the thesis is a sound scholarly piece of research (which may still be controversial in many ways or for many reasons, and may vary in quality - between certain margins - like any other scholarly publication. Ellen Raven Kern Institute of Indology, Leiden University > Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:01:00 +0100 > Reply-to: Indology > From: Alvappillai Veluppillai > Subject: Re: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > I could say something about Paranavitana's scholarship. > 1. I am aware that he has an honorary doctorate from Leiden, may be because > Vogel was his admirer for some reason. Vogel could not have been his > supervisor as Paranavitana did not work for his Ph.D. Without an > undergraduate degree, good universities do not register candidates for > Ph.D. Honorary doctorate can be conferred even without a basic degree. > /A.Veluppillai > > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Apr 27 04:28:49 1999 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 00:28:49 -0400 Subject: viSNu, sacred thread, and necklace Message-ID: <161227048351.23782.6513280035691358485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, I would appreciate if anybody could provide any pre-Kalidasa Sanskrit references describing any form of viSNu and his sacred thread or necklace as being similar to a dark mountain with a white waterfall or river? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 11:36:29 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 04:36:29 -0700 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048355.23782.16104054531346999441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Where did Paranavitana go to college for an undergraduate degree? Usually any PhD thesis will have it at the last page. Who were his PhD committee? Coming to know of the problems, 'illnessses', etc., did he present the data about Tamils in early brahmi inscriptions of Ceylon truthfully and adequately? Pali authors were working in Kaveri delta. After the success of bhakti movements by Srivaishnava Alvars and Saivaite Nayanmars, Tamil Buddhists would have left for Ceylon from 6-7 the cent. and later, became Sinhalese over time. Have the complex interactions between Ceylon and South India looked into in Indological scholarship? Religious rivalries and accommodations. V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 11:50:08 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 04:50:08 -0700 Subject: viSNu, sacred thread, and necklace Message-ID: <161227048357.23782.7189443495375665528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On yajJopavIta, please see: Jan Gonda, dIkSaa in J. Gonda, Change and continuity in Indian religion, p. 315-462, 1965. Best wishes, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From alvapillai.veluppillai at TEOL.UU.SE Tue Apr 27 06:37:53 1999 From: alvapillai.veluppillai at TEOL.UU.SE (Alvappillai Veluppillai) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 07:37:53 +0100 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka In-Reply-To: <19990426115742.49282.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048353.23782.14941245804745645780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry to inform you that I have not come across this inscription, except for Paranavitana's edition. I have not written anything about it. I now feel that it is worth editing it again. It is necessary to get an estampage of the inscription, to decipher it carefully. Further assistance will be needed from expert epigraphists in Chinese and Persian to prepare a good uptodate edition of the whole record. Like Paranavitana, I am also not competent in Chinese or Persian. Regards /A.Veluppillai >Dear Prof. Veluppillai, > >Greetings. Did you write about Galle inscription any time? > >Kind regards, >V. Iyer > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From umadevi at SFO.COM Tue Apr 27 07:28:46 1999 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 08:28:46 +0100 Subject: rAjalIlAsana in Cambodia? Message-ID: <161227048361.23782.17680882924874869901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are you familair with the beautiful e. 10th c. silver Manjusri in lalitasana from central Java? Illustrated in J. Fontein, Sculptures of Indonesia, 1991. Hope this might be useful info. Mary Storm > rAjalIlAsana is the posture with one leg either freely hanging > from a couch or in a cross-legged fashion while the other leg > is raised up forming a V-shape and this raised foot is set on the > couch, Often, the hand is resting on the knee of the lifted leg. > > Cambodia had a King Mahendravarman almost at the same time > as Pallava Mahendravarman. Their titles were citrasEna and > citrakArapuli respectively. Jean Boisselier says Khmer > art was highly influenzed from the art of South India. > Hence, my question: > In Cambodia, have any avalokitezvara and/or Shiva sitting in > rAjalIlAsana ever found?? > > Thanks a million for guidance or sources, > N. Ganesan > > Related: I saw a Gupta period Shiva sitting in rAjalIlAsana. > Except this rare exception, almost comparable to rare Skanda > sculptures from Guptan age, I do not know avalokita or siva > sitting in rAjalIlAsana. Are there any r. Shiva or Avalokita > from Bengal, U.P., Bihar, Kashmir, Nepal, Tibet, Central Asia? > N. Ganesan > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 15:45:16 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 08:45:16 -0700 Subject: rAjalIlAsana in Cambodia? Message-ID: <161227048362.23782.8429035312459513367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Are you familair with the beautiful e. 10th c. silver Manjusri in >lalitasana from central Java? Illustrated in J. Fontein, Sculptures >of Indonesia, 1991. Thanks, Mrs. Storm. I have the book already. I appreciate any info rAjalIlAsana sculptures from Cambodia? Have not yet checked Art of Japan and Korea books on this aspect. Like Song dynasty Guanyins from South China, are Kannons in Japan in rAjalIlAsana famous too? Do we have Korean Avalokitas in rAjalIlAsana? Any Khmer, Korean, Japanese rajalilasana sculptures??? Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Apr 27 19:17:57 1999 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 09:17:57 -1000 Subject: rAjalIlAsana in Cambodia? In-Reply-To: <19990427154516.55075.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048367.23782.4615286819553147624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 27 Apr 1999, N. Ganesan wrote: > Do we have Korean Avalokitas in rAjalIlAsana? No famous ones that I'm aware of. Most of the famous Korean Avalokitesvaras are in standing posture (e.g. at Sokkuram Naksan-sa, as well as some gilt bronzes). Regards, Raja. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 18:17:53 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 11:17:53 -0700 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048366.23782.10031961749029681011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal wrote: >Dear Sri Sundaresan, > >Appropos your excellent post, I just want to make a small comment--you have doubted the authenticity of 'Pancikarana' of Adi Samkaracarya. In my opinion, the doubts are unfounded since this text even has a Varttika attributed to Suresvaracarya on it. (In addition to traditional commentaries by Anandajnana et al). This validates the authenticity of the text. > Au contraire, I am questioning the assumptions behind the reasons given to doubt the attribution of pancIkaraNa to Sankara. One major assumption is that the terms tanmAtra, avyakta, mahat and ahaMkAra indicate an exclusively sAMkhyan origin. This argument is independent of the presence or otherwise of commentaries by Suresvara and Anandajnana. As I said in my earlier post, I think it is a hasty conclusion to say that the pancIkaraNa is not by Sankara. As for the commentary by Suresvara, that is apparently not a sufficient reason to accept the attribution. Note the parallel instance with mAnasollAsa, Suresvara's commentary on the dakshiNAmUrti hymn. >Secondly, I direct you to Sri Samkaracarya's commentary on the 18th Chapter of BG (do not recall the exact verse), where he uses Samkhyan concepts to explain a particular verse. The Purvapaksin then raises an objection- "How come you now accept Kapila samkhya considering that you have censured it earlier?" The Acharya responds- "What we have censured earlier is the duality preached by Kapila Samkhya. Else, they are indeed an authority on the science of Gunas." > I don't recall this in the 18th chapter. Do you mean the 13th chapter, where Sankara explicitly starts from the 25 tattvas of sAMkhya in his commentary on verse 5? In any case, there are also similar instances of a "qualified acceptance" of sAMkhya in his Brahmasutra commentary. Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From peter.schalk at RELHIST.UU.SE Tue Apr 27 14:35:50 1999 From: peter.schalk at RELHIST.UU.SE (Prof. Peter Schalk) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 15:35:50 +0100 Subject: Senerat Paranavitana In-Reply-To: <19990427113629.8706.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227048359.23782.15923749976881903303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To put an end to the discussion about Paranavitana's dissertation I can give the following facts. His dissertation is in the Instituut Kern in Leiden in The Netherlands. I just hold the original copy in my hand which is typed, 101 pages. Its title is THE STUPA IN CEYLON. An enclosed page says: PROEFSCHRIFT TER VERKRIJGING VAN DEN GRAAD VAN DOCTOR IN DEN LTTEREN EN WIJSBEGEERTE AAN DE RIJSKUNIVERSITEIT TE LEIDEN, OP GEZAG VAN DEN RECTOR MAGNIFICUS DR. J VAN DER HOEVE, HOOGLEERAAR IN DE FAKULTEIT DER GENEESKUNDE, VOOR DE FACULTEiT DER LETTEREN EN WIJSBEGEERTE TE VERDEDIGEN OP DONDERDAG 8 APRIL 1937, DES NAMIDDAGS TE 4 UUR DOOR SENERAT PARANAVITANA, GEBOREN TE GALLE (CEYLON). In the PREFACE, he thanks A M Hocart, A H Longhurst and J Ph Vogel. About the latter he says: "I feel, indeed, very fortunate in having had my manuscript coiticised(sic!) by such a leading authority on Indian Archaeology as prof. J Ph. Vogel, who has suggested many improvements and removed numerous blemishes." Those who wish to read this dissertation in the version I hold in my hands will get difficulties, because it exists only in a few copies, but the revised version of it, published in Lanka, is available in every good university library. Peter Schalk, Uppsala, Leiden. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Apr 27 16:04:46 1999 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 16:04:46 +0000 Subject: [Admin] Re: Julian Jaynes Society In-Reply-To: <3723D1C1.79A529A9@bc.seflin.org> Message-ID: <161227048364.23782.6333824613957459632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Aditya Mishra, It is nice to see another person discovering the interesting writings of Jaynes. Like you, I have often thought that aspects of his thought could be applied in the Indian context. However, I must ask you not to post long postings to the INDOLOGY list. Your attached html file made your posting over 28k, the longest by anyone this month. The attached html file did not include any reference to the root website, so it was necessary to search via altavista to find the links in the page you posted. Altogether it was a bad idea, and against the explicit policy of the INDOLOGY list. Next time, please just post the URL. That is absolutely all that is necessary. (For those interested in Jaynes, it is http://home.sprintmail.com/~marcel1/index.html) -- Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY founder. From d53 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue Apr 27 17:40:21 1999 From: d53 at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Thomas Lehmann) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 18:40:21 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit Lectureship Message-ID: <161227048369.23782.289564359026227363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> South Asia Institute of the University of Heidelberg Department of Classical Indology Lectureship in Sanskrit ======================= Applications are invited for a Lectureship in Sanskrit, beginning from 1 October 1999 or as soon as possible thereafter, due to the recent retirement of Pandit Dr. Parameswara Aithal. After an initial period of three years, during which the person appointed will be expected to have acquired proficiency in German, the appointment will be made tenure track. The appointee will be required to teach Vedic and Classical Sanskrit at various levels of both the M.A. and Ph.D. programme. The courses to be taught involve regular elementary language tuition and all areas of Vedic and Classical Sanskrit literature. Therefore, profound knowledge of traditional Sanskrit grammar as well as Vedic and Classical Sanskrit literature is expected. Teaching obligations are 16 hours a week during the semester. The appointee will also be expected to cooperate and assist in the various research projects of the department. Applications, including CV, list of publications and two letters of reference, should be sent not later than July 1st 1999. Further particulars may be obtained from the head of department. Axel Michaels ________________________________________________________________________ Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels e-mail: axel.michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Dept. of Classical Indology phone: ++49-6221-548817 South Asia Institute fax: ++49-6221-546338 University of Heidelberg Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 69120 Heidelberg Germany ________________________________________________________________________ From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Tue Apr 27 23:09:20 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya Mishra) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 19:09:20 -0400 Subject: [Shankalu] Re: Julian Jaynes again Message-ID: <161227048371.23782.4526614331102454621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Adrian van der Meijden wrote: > I've read him, years ago I had not read him earlier but the references that I gave relate as much to his own work as to the more recent research by neurobiologists like Ramchandran. Therefore the rest of your comments seem to be outdated. It is just possible that he may have hit correct conclusions by wrong means just like conjecture by Kanad about the atomic structure long before any scientific proofs were available for examining them. > Thus the modern West allows of only two mind states mono and bi, and Jaynes > wrongly superimposes this on our total past, by evidence only as between > Iliad and Odyssey. Any linguistic analysis of myths and epics in other > countries and cultures will show Jaynes' thesis unsupportable. That was exactly my point for posting to this particular list to investigate if his assumptions can be supported or contradicted by other cultures. I would suggest some other scholars to see if further research is needed in this direction. > Perhaps Jaynes' book has one merit. For the West, it points out that the > mono dimensional, linear mind state, begotten on language, not the mind, > was, once not the case. Since man invented culture, language, etc, there > must have been a state before man had language, but he still communicated by > way of body language, or as mime and ritual. TheVedas talk about four levels > of language, still present in all of Sanscrit's offspring. The current > Hollywoodisation and consumerisation of all the world today lamentably > influences other cultures and countries to even think that way, through > education, and lose touch with its own origins. Yes, I am aware of people like Velikovsy who have interpolated myths of different cultures to reach conclusions unsupported by other scientific disciplines. But does Jaynes' work fall in that category o not. I have just found that there is an active Julian Jaynes society that is interested in further discussions on this topic. > As far as I am concerned NO account of man's origins is other than > metaphoric and a tidied up version of what we believe to be the case. > Whether man originates in 4004 BC, 3 to 5 milion years ago or 197 crore > years in Gondwana land. One line in hymn RV 1.164 makes the point about the > unknown ancestors before. The post Vedic confusion about early man rests on > myth using personified mode and also superimposing modern findings on > ancient wisdom. That it nicely fits together is no proof of anything much > other than that it nicely fits together. Exactly that is wrong with all and > every history. Not necessarily. Comparative linguistics is very useful tool in tracing the early unrecorded history. Is there anything wrong in proposing that evolution is a continuos process and most of the current evolution is homo sapiens is in development of the brain structures? Psychology is still as primitive a science as biology was before the discovery of DNA or physics was before the invention of atomic theory. From umadevi at SFO.COM Tue Apr 27 19:14:50 1999 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 20:14:50 +0100 Subject: rAjalIlAsana in Cambodia? Message-ID: <161227048375.23782.15186397986655887910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Ganesan, There are several early (7th c.) Miroku (jp. Maitreya) in a rajalila pose. It was quite a common pose for early Korean and Japanese Maitreya. One well known wooden image from Chuguji, a convent associated with Horyuji, is illustrated in P. Mason, History of Japanese Art. It is pretty much a copy of a slightly earlier Korean sculpture. If you start searching I think you will be overwhelmed with small Korean bronzes. I am not aware of any Cambodian images . . . but you might risk an email to my advisor at UCLA, Robert Brown, RLBrown at humnet.ucla.edu. He is a Khmer specialist. I am thinking you might also get lucky with Cham images? What are you working on, sounds interesting? Mary N. Ganesan wrote: > > >Are you familair with the beautiful e. 10th c. silver Manjusri in > >lalitasana from central Java? Illustrated in J. Fontein, Sculptures > >of Indonesia, 1991. > > Thanks, Mrs. Storm. I have the book already. > > I appreciate any info rAjalIlAsana sculptures > from Cambodia? > > Have not yet checked Art of Japan and Korea books on this > aspect. Like Song dynasty Guanyins from South China, > are Kannons in Japan in rAjalIlAsana famous too? > Do we have Korean Avalokitas in rAjalIlAsana? > > Any Khmer, Korean, Japanese rajalilasana sculptures??? > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Wed Apr 28 02:13:05 1999 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya Mishra) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 22:13:05 -0400 Subject: [Shankalu] Re: Julian Jaynes again Message-ID: <161227048373.23782.6333532470480178219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Adrian van der Meijden wrote: > > I had not read him earlier but the references that I gave relate as much > > to > > his own work as to the more recent research by neurobiologists like > > Ramchandran. > > Probably following in the Sperry, Gazzaniga model, which fits rather nicely > with western, binary thinking, but only theoretically. As I said before, this topic is very new but very impressive to me. Could you give some reference to Sperry model and how does it relate to the research done by Ramchandran? > NO assumption can be supported, ANY assumption can be contradicted, since > they are undecidable propositions first, and made decidable or singular in > meaning by election or choIces BEFORE one gets logical. Beside it is a > theory that decides what are facts and not the other way around. I did not get that impression with the little reading that I have done so far. >"Scholars" > on average are biased, already walking their pet dogs. In a complex world > there's no way to be simple, other than by bias. So do you intend to rule out all researches by all scholars because they are biased? Does it not expose your own bias? > one could contrive dozens and oodles of theories of the world not supported > by the establishment. The establishment is into consensus opinions which > are of the singular opinion kind: ie: 'everybody knows that....'> In a > comppex world any theory can be found "FACTS" ro support it. The point is to > find that explanation which accounts for ALL of it, at once and together, > which, sad to say, can hardly be fitted in a packet of words. . I could not get the intent of your above paragraph. Do you mean to say that Jaynes' ideas are purely irrelevant and no facts can ever be found to support them? Which is the explanation that you say fits ALL of the facts. I had already mentioned that about 90% of the people who reviewed his work at amazon.com are very supportive of him and have given his book 5 star rating. You seem to have some other reason to resist any further discussion of his ideas. Personally, I do not like the idea of bicameral mind but would prefer a different model. Being a computer scientist, I could better relate to a model that separates functioning of brain into hardware and software analogs. We are seeing that a lot of functions that used to be done by software (programs) are now being incorporated in the next generation of Intel processors. This could apply to the process of learning and training by the human brain. Just like the evolution accepted today is far different from what was conceived by Darwin, we still acknowledge his contribution to current knowledge. > IF continuous then it yoyos up and down, bounces sideways, grows and decays, > etc. THE genes are now accepted as containing far more information than > needed to make up, say, the human body, so, perhaps it is more a case of > activating certain parts of the library unto certain intents, purposes, > environmental pressures, take your pick. Since there is 'nothing' > observable inside the particle and ditto 'nothing' observable outside the > universe, what supports it? The physical is unable to explain how come only > a given kind of body emerges from any DNA, see above. Besides they don't > have all the genes mapped either, so wait for it, they'll change their > minds at least 3 to 4 times. I think that is the way science works and consistency in no virtue when it comes to science. It is only in theology and religion that dogma and absolute truth is the rule. One has to be ready to change his opinion as and when new evidence becomes available. I for one, am always willing to change my views without any hesitation or loss of face. > > All this being "with it" nonsense amounts to neither more nor less than > being with the local village gossip. Fads in theories come and go at a rate > of knots. Hang around and they are contradicted, out of date, false, etc, > regularly. IF the brain operated binary fashion we'd need a head the size of > a house, at least, and that would slow us down to standstill. I find your attitude very unscientific. I find nothing wrong in being contradicted, proved false etc. From L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK Wed Apr 28 05:11:49 1999 From: L.S.Cousins at NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (L.S.Cousins) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 99 06:11:49 +0100 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048377.23782.6460732161887252520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer writes: >Where did Paranavitana go to college for an undergraduate degree? >Usually any PhD thesis will have it at the last page. >Who were his PhD committee? This is a bit anachronistic ! >Coming to know of the problems, 'illnessses', etc., >did he present the data about Tamils in early brahmi >inscriptions of Ceylon truthfully and adequately? Quite possibly not, but he would not have been alone or unusual in this. But I doubt that this would have been due to dishonesty. With the benefit of hindsight we might feel it to have been inadequate. Like most educated Sinhalese (and Indians too) of the time, Paranavitana was something of a nationalist. It is also the case that Sinhalese had legitimate grievances as regards the Tamils in the late colonial period, such as the import of large numbers of foreign workers and the privileging of the more highly educated Tamils in government service. As so often happens, this led to excesses in the opposite direction after independence. >Pali authors were working in Kaveri delta. After >the success of bhakti movements by Srivaishnava Alvars >and Saivaite Nayanmars, Tamil Buddhists would have >left for Ceylon from 6-7 the cent. and later, became Sinhalese >over time. Have the complex interactions between Ceylon >and South India looked into in Indological scholarship? >Religious rivalries and accommodations. The Chinese pilgrim records 10,000 'orthodox' Theravaadin monks in the Tamil country in the early seventh century A.D. So this dates the decline of Buddhism, etc. there too early. In fact this was a long and very slow process. I would see the period around the seventh century as in many ways a high point for Tamil Buddhism. Many, if not most, of the leading Pali writers (after the sixth century and before the twelfth) appear to have been South Indians. Arguably, it was there rather than in Ceylon that the 'orthodox' i.e. non-Mahaayaana tradition was especially preserved at this time. There were still major centres of Theravaada Buddhism in the area of present-day Tamilnad in the thirteenth century A.D. This is more controversial, but I suspect that there was some presence continuing for many centuries after that. Probably there was eventually a situation there like that in Nepal with Buddhists hardly distinguishable from the general population (if indeed they ever were). Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From umadevi at SFO.COM Wed Apr 28 15:11:19 1999 From: umadevi at SFO.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 99 16:11:19 +0100 Subject: rAjalIlAsana in Cambodia? Message-ID: <161227048379.23782.10808765768070271962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr, Ganesan, Yikes! Wrong asana! Sorry my mind is on lalitasana, not rajalila. Forget my comments on Jp and Korean images. I hope I have not sent you on any fruitless chases. Mary From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Wed Apr 28 21:24:02 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 99 23:24:02 +0200 Subject: A text dealing with Ayurveda Message-ID: <161227048381.23782.9637736109867427207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [In reply to comments from Paolo Magnone] Dear Paolo, the issues concerned are admittedly rather complex, and the current policy of the list does not favour a lengthy discussion. Still I will try to suggest an alternative approach to some of the points you mentioned. > I think "will" is explicitly denied of the puruza itself already in the > kArikA, when the puruza is styled *madhyastha* (19) and above all > *udAsIna* (20). Both terms imply impartiality, neutrality and inactivity. (There *is* an alternative interpretation, but I will not pursue it here.) I think it is fair to infer that the puruSa is without passion (or even without emotion? but cf. SK55: duHkhaM prApnoti puruSaH); so probably the locus of (some) emotions might be somewhere in the antaHkaraNa. It does not follow that the locus of volition is not the puruSa. > What is agency otherwise than "in the crude material sense"? The standard sAMkhya examples of the inactive king (and his minister), or the cripple (and the blind) show: active as exerting specific influence, but incapable of independent locomotion. But about gauDapAda's position you are doubtless right: there the guNas decide. Still I think that in the earlier commentaries the puruSa is not yet kUTastha, absolutely unchanging. Or do you have any comments thereon? > it is nature herself who supplies the "deliberation" or adhyavasAya > element Clearly, SK 23.: adhyavasAyo buddhir; but adhyavasAya is a difficult term, meaning here probably grasping, understanding, judgement (not decision, as in the gauDapAda passage you quoted ad SK 20). Cf. the analysis in Oberhammer et al. (Terminologie der fr?hen philosophischen Scholastik in Indien, Band 1, s. 29): "Es ist das sAMkhya, das (jedenfalls seit IzvarakRSNa) den *adhyavasAya* im strikt technischen Sinne nur f?r dieses dem Erkennen eigene Erfassen des Gegenstandes als das, was er ist, verwendet" > It is not right to take the non-simultaneous actions in k. 18 as > implying activity on the part of the puruzas. If you do, by the same > reason you could likewise argue that birth, death etc. that are > mentioned earlier in the same k. are also predicable of the different > puruzas They imply the involvement of the puruSas; i.e., the puruSa initiates the actions, and it is the cause of the different births and deaths of the individuals. The latter seems to suggest that karman in a way belongs to the puruSa, which is logical if he willed the actions, so he was responsible for them. Thank you very much for your kind comments, Ferenc From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Wed Apr 28 21:26:56 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 99 23:26:56 +0200 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048383.23782.2514408321557677844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [in reply to Vidyasankar Sundaresan] Dear Vidyasankar, I am well aware of the need of a major reinterpretation. Actually I have already attempted something of the kind, but of course you cannot possibly know of it, as it is in Hungarian. > to hold such a 'will' or 'desire' to be responsible for the evolution of > the tanmAtras is plainly non-sAMkhyan. Atypical, but not impossible. In SK 21 evolution (sarga) is said to occur for the puruSa to experience (puruSasya darzanArthaM). Here the puruSa seems to be the subject both of experiencing (darzana) and wishing it (artha, purpose). Else who could have that particular purpose? > In verse 7.4, the BhG only lists the five (subtle) elements along with > manas, buddhi and ahaMkAra, as constituting the eight-fold lower prakRti. [...] > Samkara's commentary sounds more "sAMkhyan" than the verse he is > commenting upon. Another way of looking at this fact is that zaGkara's commentary at this point *is* sAMkhyan. He identifies in the BG the sAMkhya theory of the eight prakRtis, and explains it according to the standard sAMkhya text, the SK 3. (He actually quotes it at ZB 1.4.11.) This is not very surprising as even in the ZB the only objections against the Samkhya seem to be the unconsciousness of the pradhAna and the multiplicity of puruSas. Sincerely yours, Ferenc From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 29 07:25:16 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 99 00:25:16 -0700 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048385.23782.16251622672710314642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: >I am well aware of the need of a major reinterpretation. Actually I have >already attempted something of the kind, but of course you cannot possibly >know of it, as it is in Hungarian. Oh, perhaps a translation, to reach a broader audience, can be published somewhere? >> In verse 7.4, the BhG only lists the five (subtle) elements along with >> manas, buddhi and ahaMkAra, as constituting the eight-fold lower prakRti. >[...] >> Samkara's commentary sounds more "sAMkhyan" than the verse he is >> commenting upon. >Another way of looking at this fact is that zaGkara's commentary at this >point *is* sAMkhyan. He identifies in the BG the sAMkhya theory of the eight >prakRtis, and explains it according to the standard sAMkhya text, the SK 3. >(He actually quotes it at ZB 1.4.11.) Well, the peculiar nature of what is called "sAMkhya" in Sankara's gItAbhAshya has to be taken into account. In 3.3, sAmkhya-buddhi is associated with those paramahaMsa-parivrAjakas who have renounced all karma and have resorted to the saMnyAsASrama from the brahmacaryASrama itself. In chapter 18, the sAMkhya-yoga is described akin to what is called parisaMkhyAna in the third prose chapter of his upadeSasAhasrI. However, in 7.4, there is an advaita vedAntic twist to his usage of sAMkhyan terms - manaH iti manasaH kAraNam ahaMkAra tattvam. buddhir iti ahaMkAra kAraNam mahat tattvam. ahaMkAra iti avidyA-samyuktam- avyaktam. Note the explicit reference to a samyoga between avidyA and avyakta. So this is not classically sAMkhyan after all. Also note that the comments on 7.4 and 7.5 anticipate chapter 13, the kshetra- kshetrajna yoga, and it is in his comments on 13.2 where Sankara comes closest to discussing the locus of avidyA, and gives his characteristic answer to the problem. Larson and Bhattacharya, in their volume on sAMkhya (Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies, gen. ed. Karl Potter), have referred to the "wholesale and shameless" borrowal of sAMkhya by vedAnta. I, however, think that terms that are typically thought to be of "sAMkhyan" origin have a common prehistory that is shared by other darSanas. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 29 14:30:42 1999 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 99 07:30:42 -0700 Subject: rAjalIlAsana in Cambodia? Message-ID: <161227048388.23782.597761183926668598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >There are several early (7th c.) Miroku (jp. Maitreya) in a rajalila >pose. It was quite a common pose for early Korean and Japanese >Maitreya. One well known wooden image from Chuguji, a convent >associated with Horyuji, is illustrated in P. Mason, History of > Japanese Art. It is pretty much a copy of a slightly earlier Korean > sculpture. If you start searching I think you will be overwhelmed > with small Korean bronzes. As you already know, these Miroku Bosatsu-s are NOT what I am looking for. These beautiful Maitreyas in the contemplating posture are different from Guanyins in rAjalIlAsana. Examples of rajalilasana Guanyins are many, one famous polychromed wooden piece is at Nelson-Atkins (Kansas City), Art Inst. of Chicago has a few, some in British museum, one metal guanyin without a crown is at Oxford. In rAjalIlAsana, no hand is reaching the face at all; Whereas in Mirokus of Korea and Japan, the chin is resting on the back of the palm, (sometimes, the face and palm are very close though not touching). Also, in Mirokus, one leg is placed on top of the other leg, this isn't the case for r. avalokitezvaras. While we are at it, did the contemplative Miroku (Maitreya) Bodhisattva from Korea and Japan ever influence Auguste Rodin's masterpiece, "The Thinker". Admittedly, 'The Thinker' created by Rodin in more masculine compared to the feminine Miroku. However, mudra of the 'chin resting on the hand' is the same. >>> What are you working on, sounds interesting. The GaNDavyUha portions point to Mt. Potalaka in the Southern extremity of India (J. Fontein, The pilgrimage of Sudhana and Lokesh Chandra), and Hsuan Tsang locates Mt. Potalaka in malaya mountains very descriptively. Right after Hsuan Tsang, the monk Chih Sheng also independently locates Potalaka in Malaya mountains. My hope is to publish the sculptural material of the Avalokita residing in Mt. Potalaka sculptures from Tamil Nadu, Sri Lanka (excavated from Mahayana monasteries), Java, Champa, South China, .... The traditional location of Mt. Potalaka in South India (GaNDavyUha and Hsuan Tsang), The spread of Pallava school to Ceylon (D. K. Dohanian) and South East Asia, Chinese looking for Guanyin models from South India and Ceylon have to do a lot with the particular rAjalIlAsana Avalokitas seated in the cavern of Mt Potalaka. God willing, I will do it with the guidance of a well known art historian. BTW, the contemplative Miroku Bosastu posture has earlier Kashmiri parallels. Look at p.195, J. C. Harle, The art and architecture of the Indian subcontinent (the Asia society, Bodhisattva Padmapani, 7th/8th century). Compare with: I could not so far find rAjalIlAsana avalokitas from North India earlier than those from Nagapattanam and Ceylon! Similar to these r. Avalokita-s, we have Pallava Kings and Pallava Dakshinamurtis. Summary: I have to expand on Art Basham's guess: The Dakshinamurti and Avalokita sculptures in rAjalIlasana essentially started in Pallava era and mutually influenced each other. Hoping to show enough sculptural and textual material. Please let me know of any rAjalIlAsana avalokitezvara sculptures from Cambodia, Korea and/or Japan? Thanks in advance. Regards, N. Ganesan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From mrabe at ARTIC.EDU Fri Apr 30 06:26:52 1999 From: mrabe at ARTIC.EDU (Michael Rabe) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 99 01:26:52 -0500 Subject: rAjalIlAsana in Cambodia? Message-ID: <161227048390.23782.8153270336659812338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:30:42 PDT, Ganesan wonders: > While we are at it, did the contemplative Miroku (Maitreya) > Bodhisattva from Korea and Japan ever influence Auguste Rodin's > masterpiece, "The Thinker". Believe it or not, the Muse? Rodin in Paris includes a Japanese Miroku in the "Thinker" pose but further research is needed to acertain whether the 19th c. sculptor acquired it before or after he created his central figure for _The Gates of Hell_ in c. 1881. DO investigate, NG, and let us know! Michael Rabe SXU/SAIC/Chicago From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Fri Apr 30 07:09:40 1999 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 99 09:09:40 +0200 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048392.23782.10465011246922549192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Vidyasankar Sundaresan, In your last posting you wrote: >>I am well aware of the need of a major reinterpretation. Actually I have >>already attempted something of the kind, but of course you cannot possibly >>know of it, as it is in Hungarian. > >Oh, perhaps a translation, to reach a broader audience, can be >published somewhere? It seems to be a personal remark which prevents me from answering your interesting arguments. Should I have misunderstood you, I apologize. Yours sincerely, F. Ruzsa From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 30 20:32:25 1999 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 99 13:32:25 -0700 Subject: Samkhyan terminology (was Re: A text dealing with Ayurveda) Message-ID: <161227048395.23782.11622913370331736846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: > >Oh, perhaps a translation, to reach a broader audience, can be > >published somewhere? > >It seems to be a personal remark which prevents me from answering your >interesting arguments. >Should I have misunderstood you, I apologize. > I simply mean that publication of an English translation of your work in Hungarian would be theoretically accessible to a larger audience. Sadly, even work published in French or German remain unread by the vast majority. And there are not that many scholars interested in Samkhya any more, except in relation to other systems. Still, it may be worth the effort. Regards, Vidyasankar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 30 22:10:43 1999 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 99 15:10:43 -0700 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L. Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048396.23782.6767255276752624520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indus Age: The Writing System by Gregory L. Possehl (1996). Oxford and IBH, New Delhi. Pages 243 + xvi. Price not stated. Reviewed by Dr. N.S. Rajaram. Gregory Possehl is one of the more prolific authors on the Harappan Civlization with several books and numerous papers to his credit. So naturally, his new book is of considerable interest to students of ancient India, especially the Harappan Civilization. It appeared in 1996, the same year as the publication of Jha's Vedic Glossary on Indus Seals. The book is elegantly produced, and the Indian edition reasonably priced (though not stated in the book). It purports to be a discussion of progress in the reading of the Indius script from G.R. Hunter to the present day. Understandably, it has no discussion of Jha's (or this reviewer's) work on the subject. The literature on the Indus script is huge and growing, but not everything published is of value. The book under review contains 60 pages of references, occupying a quarter of the whole book. It is probably the most comprehensive survey of the literature so far undertaken, but seen from our vantage position, curiously incomplete in a manner to be soon described. In the light of this, and the fact that it is becoming something of a standard reference, I feel that a few observations on the work in the light of Jha's recent work would not be out of place. The first point to note is that it is not, nor does it claim to be a contribution to the decipherment of the Indus script. It is a survey of previous efforts that tries to include anything even remotely connected with the Indus script. Upon examining the work, one is struck by the extraordinary industry displayed by the author in hunting down the most obscure references, including many that have never appeared in print. (It does not include documents and multimedia presentations that are beginning to appear on the Internet, which is a more recent phenomenon.) As examples of the author's thoroughness in compiling his bibliography, I will cite only two: a paper delivered by M.N. Gupta at the University of Kentucky in 1981, and an unpublished report "Soma, Metallurgy and Script: An Economic Chronicle" by S. Kalyanaraman of the Asian Development Bank in Manila! In a real sense Possehl's book may be called an annotated bibliography. For all its thoroughness, Possehl's bibliography is not without its limitations. The most striking from the Indian point of view is the incompleteness mentioned earlier: there is complete absence of references to any primary works of ancient India like the Rigveda. (Griffith's English translation of the Rigveda is mentioned, but that hardly qualifies as a primary work. It is also very bad.) The earliest reference we could find was to Cunningham's 1875 report on Harappa. In other words, it is a survey strictly of the secondary literature on the subject. The source of this problem is the author's ignorance of Indian languages and sources. It is as though the author has taken the modern Indological dogma of the Harappan-Vedic dichotomy as a proven historical fact upon which to frame his context. This means that he places greater trust in present day works written by authors in complete ignorance of the language and culture of the Harappans than those written by their near contemporaries. This has led him to regard all Vedic literature as being irrelevant to the Harappan Civilization. His own admission of the complete failure of the 'mainstream' Indological scholarship to make the slightest dent on the decipherment problem has apparently not persuaded him to examine its foundations. To his credit Possehl admits this failure when he notes at the end of his book: "... it is sad to observe that except perhaps for the concordances, we are no nearer a decipherment than G.R. Hunter in 1929." "What then is the point of this massive bibliography?" - one may well ask. The author fails to note - for it lies outside his frame of reference - that this unhappy state of affairs is the result of working in a historical context that is far removed from reality, compounded by a total neglect of the primary sources from the ancient Indian literature and tradition. In other words, for all the industry and thoroughness, Poessehl's book is little more than a catalog of failures - with extensive commentary of course, but failure none the same. I hasten to add, however, that this is a comment on the field rather than the author whose effort and industry I applaud. Needless to say this is not the best recommendation for the vast literature that the decipherment has spawned. Possehl attributes this sad state of affairs to poor sharing of visions on the part of scholars. My own view is different: all these 'decipherments' have taken place in the absence of a realistic historical context. So, sharing of visions resting on the same foundation - or lack of one - would accomplish little; it is like sharing visions by scholars working on the Flat Earth model. Most of these scholars have attempted to decipher an unknown script using a nonexistent language and a fabricated history and culture. In addition, with rare exceptions, most of them have made no attempt to relate the seals to the vast body of literature left behind by the Vedic Hindus. In its place we find a dogmatic attempt to divorce Harappan archaeology from the Vedic literature. To break out of the present rut these scholars must critically examine their foundation. My experience with Indologists and 'Indo-European Studies' scholars does not encourage me to conclude that this is going to happen anytime soon. The more likely scenario is that a new school of thought will emerge that will render these scholars and their field irrelevant. This is exactly what happened when Newtonian Mechanics was dethroned by Quantum Mechanics a century ago. So where does this leave us as far as Possehl's book is concerned? It is a useful compilation of attempted decipherments - all failures - over the past seven decades. It has no insights to offer, and the reader will come out no more enlightened about the Indus writing - or even the Harappan civilization - after reading the book. In a couple of years - if not already - it will be seen as a work mainly of historical interest. Post Script: (By Vishal)--The work suffers from one more serious flaw--a total ignorance/non-,mention of the vast literature on this subject in Indian Vernaculars. Most of this is composed by Traditional Indian Pundits (who are not necessarily ignorant of Western Scholarship) and they have applied the rules of the Vedangas , Pratisakhyas etc. to each and every occurance of the word 'Arya' and so on and have amply demonstrated that the Vedic texts do not allude to any foreign invasion of Aryans. In fact, it is sad that most foreign scholars are totally ignorant of the excellent scholarly works which appear in Hindu, Marathi and other Indian vernaculars. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 30 22:54:41 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 99 15:54:41 -0700 Subject: Trilingual inscription from Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227048400.23782.7768931170058225449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It is also the case that Sinhalese had legitimate grievances as >regards the Tamils in the late colonial period, such as the import of large >numbers of foreign workers and the privileging >of the more highly educated Tamils in government service. As so often >happens, this led to excesses in the opposite direction after independence. British colonial regime was responsible for importing Indian Tamils or to place Jaffna Tamils in Govt. jobs; In India also, this happened. Eg., large portion of the Army manned by Sikhs and in the Madras Presidency, most of the decent and high paying jobs going to the Brahmins. But compare the 'ethnic cleansing' efforts in Lanka to that in Punjab. No doubt, the Dravidian movement was started to place a quota system in modern education to give all castes a chance in the professions. One negative result of this Dravidian movement was that Sanskrit scholarship suffered a setback and Tamil scholarship is not doing great either. Still, the 'ethnic cleansing' in Lanka is an orders of magnitude higher than wrongdoings in India. V. Iyer PS: Note that this is not a justification for Indian killings either. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 30 23:06:46 1999 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 99 16:06:46 -0700 Subject: Book review: Indus Age- the Writing System by Gregory L. Possehl. Message-ID: <161227048402.23782.153865001456172076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The source of this problem is the author's ignorance of Indian >languages and sources. It is as though the author has taken the modern >Indological dogma of the Harappan-Vedic dichotomy Is it Rajaram's position that once Greg learns Sanskrit, he will say that Indus culture is Vedic Aryan? Is Jha's Vedic glossary of Indus seals accepted by Dr. Kalyanaraman? I heard that Possehl's manuscript was ready before Parpola's Deciphering the Indus script was published. Can someone tell me whether the book under review has mentioned Parpola's book, Deciphering the Indus script? V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR Fri Apr 30 22:35:23 1999 From: Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR (Gerard Huet) Date: Sat, 01 May 99 00:35:23 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit to French dictionary Message-ID: <161227048398.23782.9624839753576735008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I made a new edition of my Sanskrit to French dictionary. It is available through my Indology page, at http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT where you will find instructions on how to download it. Since many people had difficulty with the Postscript format, I made a pdf version of it which everyone ought to be able to read with Acrobat Reader. All comments welcome Gerard Huet From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Apr 2 21:44:31 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 16:44:31 -0500 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227047836.23782.501300753991893177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Such misinterpretations are common: In the case of the ancient tirumAl (viSNu) temple "tirunAGkUr" near pUmpukAr where the main deity was known as kuTakkUttar [the pot dancer: kuTam = pot] with the image itself in the form of a dancer with the pot under the feet of tirumAl, people had somehow started confusing that name with kuTaikkUttar [umbrella dancer: kuTai = umbrella ] and celebrating festivals at that temple with umbrellas! Then justified it by citing the gOvardhana hill episode. This so in spite of the image being very unambiguous and ancient AzvAr texts explicitly calling tirumAl there as kuTakkUttar! There is a passage in cilappatikAram aenumerating the 11 prototypical dances of classical Tamil dance and lists kuTakkUttu by tirumAl as one of them. Apparently there is another temple in kEraLa also where such a confusion has taken place. I read a book which that cites all these textual evidences and still argues against the pot dance fact! Chandra > -----Original Message----- > From: Swaminathan Madhuresan [mailto:smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Friday, April 02, 1999 4:28 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: uraga and AlavAy > > > > On the contrary, David Shulman and following him William > Harman have simply > > missed the mark in understanding the true history of the > name AlavAy. > > Another case of wrong translation from Tamil into Sanskrit: > The word 'Aalam' meaning the banyan tree was misunderstood > as hAla/hAlahAla > (poison), and the story was spun for the Big Snake encircling > Maturai (hAlAsya myth). > > SM > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Mon Apr 12 22:05:27 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 18:05:27 -0400 Subject: uraga and AlavAy Message-ID: <161227048010.23782.1184602598571127466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan quoted some earlier posting: > > > > Vedic knows Shiva as Rudra and as an 'outsider'. The > peaceful concept > > of ziva, the Universal teacher sitting under the banyan ie., > > Dakshinamurti was new to Sanskrit. When this aspect was integrated > > there via agamas, Shiva in this mode cam naturally to be named > > Dakshinamurti, 'the Lord from the South'. Usually, South is the > > direction of Death and hence no reason to call the peaceful, supreme > > teacher as Dakshinamurti. Relevant literature finds it hard to > > explain the meaning of Dakshinamurti and hope my explanation helps. > > I checked the Colgne Digial Sansrit Lexicon at http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/mwd_search.html for the entry "rudra" and got the following: Meaning mfn. (prob.) crying , howling , roaring , dreadful , terrific , terrible , horrible (applied to the As3vins , Agni , Indra , Mitra , Varun2a , and the %{spa4zaH}) RV. AV. (accord. to others `" red , shining , glittering "' , fr. a %{rud} or %{rudh} connected with %{rudhira} ; others `" strong , having or bestowing strength or power "' , fr. a %{rud} = %{vRd} , %{vRdh} ; native authorities give also the following meanings , `" driving away evil "' ; `" running about and roaring "' , fr. %{ru} + %{dra} = 2. %{dru} ; .....[elided...] in the later mythology the word %{ziva} , which does not occur as a %{name} in the Veda , was employed , first as an euphemistic epithet and then as a real name for Rudra , who lost his special connection with storms and developed into a form of the disintegrating and reintegrating principle ; while a new class of beings , described as eleven [or thirty-three] in number , though still called Rudras , took the place of the original Rudras or Maruts:..." Does it say that the word "ziva" does not occur in the vedas at all? if so is that correct? Regards, Chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Wed Apr 14 20:46:40 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 16:46:40 -0400 Subject: ziva in vedas Message-ID: <161227048071.23782.14785115729356381024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I had buried this question in a different thread. Apologies if I am repeating it but thought worth doing so as the statement from the Lexicon is intriguing. I checked the Colgne Digial Sansrit Lexicon at http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/mwd_search.html for the entry "rudra" and got the following: "..... in the later mythology the word %{ziva} , which does not occur as a %{name} in the Veda ,..........". Is this supposed to be taken to mean that the word "ziva" does not occur in the vedas at all? Thanks, Chandra From Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM Fri Apr 16 14:37:58 1999 From: Periannan.Chandrasekaran at DELTA-AIR.COM (Chandrasekaran, Periannan) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 10:37:58 -0400 Subject: The elephant naLagiri/nalagiri Message-ID: <161227048110.23782.8442105951092815071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > -----Original Message----- > From: Artur Karp [mailto:hart at POLBOX.COM] >-black'. > > Quite interestingly, the PED notes two instances when aGjana > is used in the > meaning of 'ointment-tube, collyrium-box' (aGjana=aGjana-nALi > - TherIgAthA > 413, Dhammapada-aTThakathA II.25). Was also nALI/i ('a hollow > stalk, tube, > pipe') used to mean 'ointment-tube, collyrium-box'? With its > suggestion of > blackness? > Couod it refer to the trunk of the elephant itself which is a black tube ("naLa nALAm") too. In classical Tamil an elephant is refered to as "thumbi" (the trunk) or "kaimmA" (kai = arm/trunk and mA = animal) also. Chandra